------------------------------------------------------------------ This is just one of some 80 files about machining and metalworking and useful workshop subjects that can be read at: http://www.janellestudio.com/metal/index.html ------------------------------------------------------------------ Here find information and tips about different "adhesives" involved in some of the machining or metalworking processes, and many more in the home workshop. Besides this file, see the text files "Thread Dials and Half Nuts" or "Atlas Repair or Fitting" and "Workholding" to see some clever ideas where glues or epoxies may be used. The casting part of the hobby even uses wood glues to join together pieces for wooden prototypes (patterns) of objects that will be cast in metal and then machined to final dimensions. Since the metalworking forums provided no new input on adhesives for several months after I started this web site, I eventually went to the OldTools group [NOT ON YAHOO] to gather some good tips. Not a Woodworker? The fellows there (affectionately known as Galoots) deal with tools and jigs and problems involving metal as well as wood. They have experts sharing advice on rust removal, soldering, welding, threading, tool finishing, etc. that can be VERY valuable to home machinists/metalworkers. A very friendly forum there. You can subscribe (the digest version is suggested as there are about 100 messages per day) from a link off their archives page: http://www.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/archive/ And even the most avid metalworker will eventually need to build a wood workbench or storage device for the workshop (or something nice for the better half to help justify buying all that hardware/machinery). If you got to this file directly from my HOME PAGE, return there by using your browser's back button. BUT if you came to this file as the result of a web search engine, see many additional files on my home page Machining and Metalworking at Home http://www.janellestudio.com/metal/index.html SAFETY WARNING BEWARE: DO NOT ASSUME that any subject matter or procedure or process is safe or correct or appropriate just because it was mentioned in a news/user group or was included in these files or on this site or on any other web site or was published in a magazine or book or video. Working with metals and machinery and chemicals and electrical equipment is inherently dangerous. Wear safety devices and clothing as appropriate. Remove watches, rings, and jewellery -- and secure or remove loose clothing -- before operating any machine. Read, understand and follow the latest operating procedures and safety instructions provided by the manufacturer of your machine or tool or product. If you do not have those most recent official instructions, acquire a copy through the manufacturer before operating or using their product. Where the company no longer exists, use the appropriate news or user group to locate an official copy. Be careful -- original instructions may not meet current safety standards. Updated safety information and operating instructions may also be available through a local club, a local professional in the trade, a local business, or an appropriate government agency. In every case, use your common sense before beginning or taking the next step; and do not proceed if you have any questions or doubts about any procedure, or the safety of any procedure. Follow all laws and codes, and employ certified or licenced professionals as required by those laws or codes. Hazardous tasks beyond your competence or expertise should also be contracted to professionals. Let's be really careful out there. (c) Copyright 2003 - 2015 Machining and Metalworking at Home The form of the collected work in this text file (including editing, additions, and notes) is copyrighted and this file is not to be reproduced by any means, including electronic, without written permission except for strictly personal use. ========================================================================= oldtools digest 16655 Apr-11-1997 %x~xx#&*^#%* Bird's Eye Maple ARRGHH!!!! I hereby make a motion that from here on out Bird's Eye maple be referred to only as %x~xx#&*^#%* Bird's Eye Maple. [NOTE TO FILE: The "shave" here is an antique style spokeshave with a wood body.] playing hookey this am I decided to finish up a shave [and get a jump on another..... So there I an this an doing the _last_ step of a shave, inlaying the brass mouth. (already I had 3+ hours of work into it.) I gently tap,tap,tap of the chisel all is going fine, then I guess the edge grabbed some weird grain "just right" (or wrong) and _crack!_ a split running 3 inches! sh*tf*cksn*tp*sss*n*f*b*tch Sorry, Ernie, But Your shave is now imbedded in my basement wall where I threw it. (I _got_ to learn to controll my temper!-) thanks for letting me vent, I feel better now. John A. Gunterman ------- 16663 Tom Walley Apr-11-1997 Re: %x~xx#&*^#%* Bird's Eye Maple John, I know how you feel and it's good (well not good, but it makes me feel less bad) to see someone else suffering similar pain as I am. Only with me it's because of oak; hard, red, *&#expletive*&x~xx oak. I've been trying to get a nice surface on some closet shelves that my wife wants out of oak. Tearout and chatter marks from the #4 are the order of the day. Can't use a plane? Then try a scraper. Out comes the #80 cabinet scraper and that seems to work well for about 2 square feet and then it cuts no more! I resharpen it and it's worse than before. I think that oak looks like hell and works like hell and I wish that my wife had developed a taste for cherry or maple or birch! To my eye, the oak doesn't look very wild so I guess that it's just the hardness that is doing my tools, techniques, and patience. Now I see why tailed apprentices were invented. I think that I'll re-read about scraper sharpening procedures that appeared here some time ago and try that again. It's been so long since I sharpened my scraper that I think that I screwed it up last night. This first set of shelves are keeping all the character marks that they've acquired thus far but I hope to do better on the second. I sympathize with your experience with difficult wood. After hearing about some of the gossamer thin shavings and super-smooth wood that some in this group are able to achieve, I tend to wonder what I'm doing wrong every time I sharpen a blade or pick up a plane. Oh well. Tom Walley ------- 16667 Bill Clouser Apr-11-1997 Re: %x~xx#&*^#%* Bird's Eye Maple OK. Now that I know that cracks and splits plague others too, and since we've been so embarrassingly honest about dovetail cosmetic fixes, I want to ask how successful other Galoots have been at gluing up splits like the one John describes above? Sometimes the stock I want to use has a crack already, and sometimes I make my own cracks while working it. In either case, I'm always tempted to work some glue in there, clamp it for a while, and keep on truckin'. The repair is often very hard to spot because, after all, the two surfaces were intimately acquainted at one time and match perfectly as long as the splintering isn't too pronounced. Am I the only one doing this? Bill ------- 16669 Esther O. Heller Apr-11-1997 Re: %x~xx#&*^#%* Bird's Eye Maple > Am I the only one doing this? You _clearly_ haven't made a chair with Mike Dunbar yet ;-) ;-). One of the things that makes him both a master and a master teacher is the number of screwups he knows how to fix, and instant glue in a couple flavors is secret weapon #1. There are a lot of places to pick up unexpected and inconvenient cracks. Glue it, sometimes clamp it, go get some coffee, and keep on truckin'. I gather when he first started teaching it wasn't as available, and glue drying time when something went wrong was a serious problem occasionally. Instant glues run down cracks very nicely, yes I know first hand. Do keep in mind that the chairs are painted, I don't know what the glues do for stains and clear finishes. Just Say (tm) wood filler comes in handy sometimes too... Esther eohx~xxk... ------- 16685 Scott Post Apr-12-1997 Re: %x~xx#&*^#%* Bird's Eye Maple Since I'm the one who started the thread on repairing dovetails, I'm almost embarrassed to participate in this one. :-) I've had good luck using the glue sold by Veritas for repairing loose chair rungs. It's very thin glue that comes in a small bottle with a needle-like snout that's great for shoving in cracks and giving a squirt or two. Since the glue is thin it runs down long cracks quite well. I've had to do this more time than I'd care to admit, but the repairs (so far only in red oak) have always been invisible. Scott Post spostx~xxn... http://www.netusa1.net/~spost ------- 16690 Bruce & Debra Kantelis Apr-12-1997 Re: %x~xx#&*^#%* Bird's Eye Maple >Am I the only one doing this? - Bill No. Eric, who has recently discovered Veterinarian needles (Cheap) with a big enough bore to allow all kinds of glues, silicones etc to be used for all kinds of purposes.... (and the vet supply places (like co-op stores etc) often have real big syringes too....)> ------- oldtools digest Paul Fuss Mar-07-2000 Re: Old Tools with Extreme Repairs OK, so this isn't exactly extreme, and I haven't even decided yet whether it was a clever or ill-conceived attempt at a repair... I have a violin clamp that would be very nice were it not for the threads inside the "nut" being thoroughly stripped. The original repair consisted of rawhide strips pressed inside the nut to engage the threads, which have since fallen out (they apparently weren't glued). I could stick with the original repair and redo it but I don't know how great the holding power of the clamp will be. Glue in some soft leather, or the rawhide strips, wet it, and form the threads simply by running the screw through a few times, then coat with something (what?) to harden the surface? Any other suggestions, keeping in mind I don't have taps and dies on hand, and would prefer to repair the existing nut rather than replace it altogether? Thanks in advance, Paul Fuss ------- Kirk Hays Mar-07-2000 RE: Old Tools with Extreme Repairs Coat the screw with release agent, pack the nut with good* epoxy, let cure. Kirk Hays Cedar Mills, Orygun Cruffler Galoot #1 *Good epoxy == flocked Acraglas or equivalent, see www.brownells.com, or get Devcon Steel from your local autoparts center. ------- Louis Michaud Coat the screw with release agent, pack the nut with good* epoxy, >let cure. In the long run, wouldn't this result in excessive wear of the screw since the two materials have a very different hardness. When two parts wear against each other I would try to have the same hardness for an even wear down. Unless one part is sacrificial or intended to wear down. Don't have the solution for this one, just my 2 cents. Louis Michaud ------- "John J. Pesut" Mar-07-2000 RE: Old Tools with Extreme Repairs I would consider a helicoil insert. The kits are are pricey but the repair is better than the original. They come in every thread size you can imagine. When the repair is finished you have to try real hard to even detect that it was done. If you want to keep an old tool authentic as you can and still want it 100% useable this is the way to go. I fixed a #45 fence with these and it worked great. ------- oldtools digest 80897 Roger Books booksx~xxj... Jul-13-2000 Strength of glue I'm really starting to wonder about the much touted "glue is stronger than the wood." Let me explain why. About a year ago I started assembling my first workbench. Pine 2x4s glues together across the wide face. I screwed up, in squaring up the board before glueing I failed to notice that the 4x4 I was using for a bench warped. It seems to have warped about 1/2 way through as 1/2 the boards look good, the other 1/2 are narrower in the middle than the edges. Now, my glue procedure was to glue both sides, I put in enough glue that a small amount leaked out of the edges, nothing I couldn't easily wipe off with a paper towel. I would then clamp everything tightly, and leave, usually for a week. It was with the last boards that I finally figured out what was going on, but by then I had large amounts of stress in the bench. After a year I am starting to get some splitting, always between boards. I used Elmers wood glue if that could be the issue. What I am getting at is there are two different strength measurements, one where you apply a short term impulse, at these the glue may well be stronger than the wood. On a long term force I really am not sure if the glue is stronger than the wood. Thoughts? Roger ------- 80899 jimbonox~xxw... (James Thompson) Jul-12-2000 Re: Strength of glue I am the author of an article published back in the sixties in Popular Mechanics entitled "The Best Glue for Wood." Don't remember the date. It is surprising to me how little things have changed since then. Yellow glue, one-part waterproof glue, and poluurethane glue are really the only changes I can think of at this moment, although there must be more. When glue fails to bond with wood in a properly fitted joint, there are two possibilities most probable. 1. The glue was old. Glue has a shelf life, and most people keep it too long. 2. The surface of the glue joint was contaminated. This can come from the wood itself. Oily wood, pitch, etc.can cause a glue joint failure. A properly made glue joint made with fresh glue, and not contaminated is indeed stronger than the wood itself, and has been for a long time. ------- 80902 Andres Sender asenderx~xxn... Jul-13-2000 Re: Strength of glue > On a long term force I really am not sure > if the glue is stronger than the wood. Aliphatic resin glues are reputed to creep. Except maybe the specially formulated instrument-grade stuff sold by an outfit called Luthier's Mercantile, but that stuff is a bit more finicky to use. ------- 80909 Allan Fisher alfx~xxc... Jul-13-2000 Re: Strength of glue At 09:49 PM 7/12/00 -0700, James Thompson wrote: >When glue fails to bond with wood in a properly fitted joint, there are >two possibilities most probable. The other possibility that Jim implicitly mentions, of course, is that the joint might not be tight. Most wood glues are not strong when filling gaps. ------- 80922 James Foster jafx~xxM... Jul-13-2000 Re: Strength of glue Well, yeah, in a way. Someone else mentioned glue creep. That is probably what you're running into here - a steady pull over a period of time. That is one reason why hide glue is still used for parts of string instruments under tension. It has little, if any, tendency to creep. It's also reversable, of course, which is an even bigger reason for using it for these applications. So I'd suggest that part of your problem is in not being galootish enough. You should have warmed the boards by the fireplace in your shop and then brushed on a nice hot freshly made coat of hide glue and then clamped them. If you'd done this then you'd probably be seeing cracks in the boards themselves, where they belong, and not in the glue joints. B^) The other side of this is that you are of course experiencing wood movement as the moisture content in the wood changes over time (I know, I have a wonderful knack for stating the obvious B^)). This is an argument for either making sure you've carefully selected the lumber for straightness and played all the "minimize problems" games with regard to having it be quartersawn, matching growth direction, etc, or for putting a finish on your bench. If I wasn't using a door I think I would be tempted to at least seal the ends of the boards well. A few coats of PaddyLac (What's the question? Shellac is the answer!) or some other finish that is a good moisture sealer (and this wouldn't be linseed oil - running and ducking around the corner of the porch as a spitoon sails past my ear B^) Jim ------- 80925 Roger Books booksx~xxj... Jul-13-2000 Re: Strength of glue > one reason why hide glue is still used for parts of string instruments I knew there was a reason Elmers glue in a plastic bottle felt like cheating. :) Of course, I'm the one that uses a dremel and computer program to mark teeth for retoothing a saw, so I can't say I don't cheat a bit. > If I wasn't using a door I think I would be > tempted to at least seal the ends of the boards well. This really isn't the problem in this case, the ends are fine, it is where the tension occurs in the center that is the problem. > A few coats of PaddyLac or some other finish that is > a good moisture sealer Why not? A coat of oil soaked into the end should be just as good a moisture seal as shellac. Maybe even better. If the oil displaces the water (which is what it does) then you have less of a problem with water in the air swelling the wood. Roger ------- 80926 James Foster jafx~xxM... Jul-13-2000 Re: Strength of glue > Why not? A coat of oil soaked into the end should be just as good a > moisture seal as shellac. Maybe even better. Well, actually not according to forest products lab tests. Oil finishes of all kinds scored very poorly wrt _moisture_ resistance. Note that this is different from water resistance. An oiled surface may bead up drops of water just fine, but it lets moisture pass through like it wasn't even there. I like to think of all finishes more like a GoreTex windbreaker than a rubber raincoat. They won't let droplets through, but allow moisture to pass in or out. Different finishes allow different amounts of moisture. More coats (in general, but with diminishing returns) will retard the transfer more. They ran tests that determined how much the finishes slowed down moisture transfer compared to bare wood. Three coats of shellac, or varnish, or laquer, slowed it down in the 40% range. Multiple coats of pretty much any oil slowed it down by nothing. The test blocks soaked up moisture just as much as the bare one. Jim ------- Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2000 17:39:23 -0800 From: "Rick Page" To: Subject: Wood as an engineering material The US Forest Service Wood Handbook is available on line. http://www.fpl.fs.fed.us/faqs.htm I have to admit I never read it, but it is the bible for engineered wood products. Chapter 9 covers adhesives. The companies have informative web sites too. Better than reading all the labels on the bottles in the hardware store. http://www.elmers.com http://www.titebond.com http://www.loctite.com http://www.lepageproducts.com http://www.franktross.com (Weldbond) And a plug for my alma mater: http://forestry.mtu.edu/ Rick Page. Maybe we should start on CA. ------- Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2001 18:29:30 -0500 From: ron ginger Subject: Re: Moglice??? My CNC Sherline mill has moglice nuts. They work very well, no measureable backlash, and smoother than the original. I wrote up a good description of the process that I posted on the CAD_CAM_EDM_DRO group on egroups. I think its still in the files section. I will try to find it and post it to my web page. I arranged to have a Moglicce Sales Engineer talk to our club last year, and it was one of those 'to good to be true' things. He swears it works, and told us several case studies. I have read several reports of some amazing repairs with it. The smallest kit is about $40, and that would do several Sherline size nuts. The only problem is they really insist you mix the entire kit at one go, and not divide it. The release agent is a spray can of stuff for about $25. Philadeliphia Resins sells a competitive product, which I have also used with some luck - one good, one bad. Their product seems to use plain graphite as the slippery agent, while Moglice uses Moly-disulphide. If I do m ore, I will use Moglice. ron ginger ------- Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 14:50:41 -0500 From: ron ginger Subject: Re: Moglice??? Thomas Gilmour wrote: > Ron, Did you do a Moglice nut for the Z axis? If so, how did you > accomplish this? No, just for X and Y. Z could be done by making a new bracket with a larger hole where the thread goes and casting the Moglice into that. As I did the X and Y I did not have to modify anything about the Sherline- I could drill out the Moglice and it would be totally as new. ron ------- Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 21:57:13 -0500 From: ron ginger Subject: Re: Moglice??? Yasmiin Davis wrote: >> Where does one buy this magic stuff -- I have a several machines that could use new nuts and this may save me from buying complete new lead screws on some of the machines I am rebuilding. << You get it in the US from www.moglice.com, which is I think Devitt Machinery Co in CT. It is actually a German product, so is likely sold in Europe by some other company. Try also www.phillyresins.com, they have a similar product. Be careful of using it on a worn screw - it casts with a clearance of .0001" per coat of release agent. If your screw has wear and you cast it in a worn place it will never move.! I tried to make one for my Grizzley mini mill and got it stuck on, I think because it was a square thread and I made the nut to long. I had to cut a slot in the stuff with a Dremel cutoff wheel and break it away. ron ginger ------- Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2001 23:34:57 EDT From: PIHPGSx~xxaol.com Subject: Re: Gas tank sealer? Just go to any airport small airplane shop, they do these things as a matter of survival. They simply coat the inside of airplane fuel tanks and are up and running again..Cost? Don't have a clue, but they do have it. chuck ------- Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2001 00:27:51 EDT From: Kimchecabx~xxaol.com Subject: Re: Gas tank sealer? Frank: Go to your closest motorcycle dealer, one who deals in motocross or of road racing, they would have a sealer for gas tanks. Off topic I know. Paul Milton Altas10X54QC. ------- Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2001 04:57:03 -0400 From: "Wayne" Subject: Re: Gas tank sealer? Frank: The two name brands I know of in the auto/motorcycle field are POR-15, and Kreem. Follow the directions to a "t" and you should have great luck. SeeYa Wayne(rice)Burner A/C 12 x 24" VJMC Member ------- Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2001 12:05:10 -0000 From: flagstaff11010x~xxyahoo.com Subject: Re: Gas tank sealer? I have uses the tank sealer that you can get at a local bike shop. You must follow the directions to a tee. I found that I only got 3 years before it started to let go, somehow the gas got behind it and what a disaster. If I had to do it again I would not use it and make sure my tanks are filled to the top at all times. If you do use it buy a lot of the etch and follow the instructions. hope this helps. Cliff ------- Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2001 09:50:49 -0700 From: "Bob May" Subject: Re: Gas tank sealer? Don't know about RedCote but POR-15 has what is probably an equivalant product and it is readily available in the old auto industry. JCWhitney even sells the stuff! There are several other makers of the stuff that also work as well. I generally point people towards Hemmings Motor News magazine (about 1/2" thick monthly magazine in a medium brown wrapper!) for old auto stuff and if you're doing an auto gas tank, you're probably also interested in getting other parts for your car. Bob May http://nav.to/bobmay ------- Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2001 06:54:45 -0400 From: Reed Streifthau Subject: Re: Digest Number 531 [Re: Gas tank sealer?] I'm in a 650+ motorcycle list for ~20 year onld Yamaha XS1100 motorcycles. I used a product from Caswellplating. It is called "EPOXY GAS TANK SEALER" and can be found at http://www.caswellplating.com/nsindex.htm and click on "Restoration Aids". On the list we've had many bad comments about Kreem, none about the Caswell product. I used it on one rather rusty tank and it is doing great. I cleaned the tank by lots of rolling with 3/8 nuts. One great advantage about a epoxy product is that a squeaky clean tank is not required. Reed Raleigh, NC ------- Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2002 19:02:42 +0000 From: Jon Elson Subject: Re: Turcite, or Moglice n5fee wrote: > I have seen this epoxy mentioned a couple of times recently on this > list. I have searched the archives and see it mentioned in passing > in a couple of other messages, but I cannot find information about it > by searching the web. Who makes these products and where can > information about it be found? Devitt Machinery is the US rep for Moglice, see http://www.moglice.com/newsite/pages/applicpages/rebuildframe.html For Turcite there are several distributors in the US http://www.interstateplastics.com/meta/fmtur.htm http://www.boedeker.com/turcax_p.htm Jon ------- Date: Sat, 22 Mar 2003 18:41:54 -0800 From: "GuyW" Subject: Re: metal in a tube [atlas_craftsman] March 22, 2003 "renaissanceman04002" wrote: > ...not exactly an Atlas lathe item but I'm trying to tap into the > wealth of related wisdom about machining metals you guys have here. > I'm seeking some info about that "metal in a tube" epoxy two part mix > (can't recall the trade name) that is purported to set up as hard as > steel. I want to make a pattern with this stuff but I can't have the > pattern self destruct when I hammer a small piece of iron from the > forge around it. This is part of a learning process I'm going through > to design and make a flintlock rifle. The damascus parts I'm shaping > are about 1/8" X 1" X 5" so I'm not talking about a lot of mass here. > Can anyone tell me how this epoxy reacts to high heat? I have to get > the iron part up to a bright red - almost yellow to shape it. I know > (have read about) how it machines and that's what trigered the idea > it might be worth making patterns with. I'm considering layering an > inch of this mix over a hard wood shape to use as a form during the > design of the parts. Any ideas??? Short and sweet: it will burn up. That "metal" epoxy is just aluminum powder in an epoxy matrix. Guy ------- Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2003 10:41:17 -0500 From: "John Glowacki" Subject: Re: metal in a tube If you epoxy something that you don't want epoxied, just apply heat to separate. Epoxy does not hold up well to heat. John Glowacki ------- Michael Lindgren oldtools digest Apr-19-2003 Re: Federal Style Inlay On Fri, 18 Apr 2003, Jim Crammond wrote: > The table top is made of a piece of crotch walnut that has some pretty > spectacular figure, the only problem is a half inch square area that > needs to be covered to disguise a flaw. My plan is to use inlay to > cover the defect. I have done some poor inlay, so can't say anything useful about that, but wanted to offer an alternative idea that Todd Herrli demonstrated to us at a Galootapalooza a couple of years ago. Todd uses some pretty nice woods in his plane bodies, and he showed us how he patched gaps and fissures in wood like apple(hard to get in large pieces) with epoxy. If I recall correctly, Todd made some soot using a candle and a scraper until he had a little pile of soot, and added it to the 5 minute epoxy to get a nice black color. Worked the epoxy into the crack, let it dry a bit and planed it smooth. It was a nice contrast to the lighter wood, but in a burl walnut might be inobtrusive. Don't know if it would fit into the style of Jim's piece, or if the flaw in the walnut is of that nature, so the suggestion may be inappropriate. On the other hand, sometimes a patched-in inlay can be difficult to introduce into a piece in a way that does not draw your eye straight to it. Best regards, Mike Lindgren ------- Minch Apr-19-2003 Re: Federal Style Inlay A tried and true technique is to mix sawdust from the piece you are patching with the epoxy for a pretty close match. You can even work in a layer of the sawdust on the surface for a closer match. Ed Minch ------- "Leo Lichtman" Apr-19-2003 Re: Federal Style Inlay As a bowl turner, I am quite familiar with the problems of hiding cracks in wood. Most of us find that mixing sawdust with resin or CA glue does not produce the best possible match. As the glue "wets" the wood granules, it darkens them slightly, so the repair still shows. One excellent solution, however, is to use "burn-in" sticks. These are shellac sticks which come in various colors. They are applied with hot knife. The hardened repair sands very well, and it is even possible to blend in a grain pattern. Insurance adjusters use them to repair the damage caused by furniture movers. Another technique is to mix the expoxy resin with tinting colors or pigments. It is possible to get very close color matches that way. ------- Subject: RE: Shop Floor - PLAN C oldtools digest From: "Meltsner, Kenneth" Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2003 18:15:58 -0500 West Systems epoxy is the greatest stuff -- pure resin, pure hardener, measuring pumps, and a whole bunch of additives. I used it to put a watertight floor on the bottom of a shower stall with a cracked pan. Epoxy + fiberglas is pretty close to clear so I didn't have to add any sort of finish or topcoat when I was done. ObOldTool: I've also used it for serious gap filling in woodworking (i.e. when I made a hickory mallet), or when I glued a cocobolo handle on an old Gerber kitchen knife. Not the cheapest, but I'm pretty sure this is as close to industrial-grade epoxy as I'll get without buying a five gallon can. http://www.westsystem.com/ Sold by Lee Valley, Jamestown Distributors, and most of the usual suspects. Meltsner Brookfield (near Milwaukee) WI ------- Subject: Re: Plow Plane Thread Restoration oldtools digest From: Thomas Conroy Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2003 15:27:53 -0800 (PST) [NOTE TO FILE: This thread deals with a wood-bodied woodworking plane that has developed a crack in one of the wood adjusting arms. The repair methods will be either practical or inspirational to metalworkers that still have some contact with wood in tool handles or various elements of their workshop. The threads mentioned here are wood.] <<... a Sandusky plow with a different thread problem. One arm is split lengthwise starting about an inch in from the finial, to about an inch from where the threaded part of the arm ends at the fence. Looks like someone dropped it and the shock split the arm, although there is no ding on the tip of the finial. It's possibly a stress crack too, but the crack doesn't look like it wants to separate any wider... >> Jim -- If the crack is still closed at both ends, is there really a need to glue it? I do have a success story, though in that case the split ran out at one end. I've repaired one screw of a large bookbinder's finishing press (screws 1 1/8" diameter, 10" of thread on each screw, 24" between screws, cheeks 3 1/2" square)which had a split that ran out at one end and was attached for an inch or two at the other. I pried the split apart a bit and worked in a plastic glue, probably yellow glue but maybe it was bookbinders' PVA (a plasticized white glue). At this point I would probably do the repair with hot hide glue--- better reversability, longer open time, can be made very thin if fresh, more than strong enough, only drawback is that it isn't waterproof and if you soak a wood screw you will have more problems than a repair coming loose.I probably worked in the glue with a thin knife and may have blown on it to drive the glue in as deeply as possible (I have done this on other splits). Clamping must have been pretty primitive considering what I have available at work--- probably a vise equivalent, perhaps with lots of paper towels to pad it, possibly helped by cord wound in the screws to help keep the threads lined up or by rubber bands for the same reason. The main point where care is needed is getting the broken edges of the threads lined up properly, and here the unevenness of the break will help you if you let it. Point is that the repair was completely successful-- I've been using the press (though not often) for five years or more without any problems, and I think I would have trouble pointing out which screw was broken. When I pick up the press to put it on the bench I usually swing it by a screw, and I don't pay any attention to whether it is the bad one or not --- this means I am lifting 3 1/2" x 7" x 30" of hard maple. Cleanup wasn't messy-- just tedious, done with a small knife. I figure that if clamping the joint drives lots of adhesive out of the split, then it is probably driving some into the deepest crevices of the split, which is all to the good. Maybe waxing the threads would help on cleanup, but I would be careful of this. I have treated jammed presses where they were sticking a little until someone rubbed beesway on the screws thinking that this would lubricate them, and then they started sticking a lot. I don't believe in lubrication on wooden threads-- if there is enough slop in the screw to allow for wood movement the lubrication is unnecessary, and if there is so little slop that the threads are sticking, lubrication won't be enough. ------- Subject: Re: Split Arm Repair oldtools digest From: Darrell LaRue Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2003 18:55:12 -0800 Jim et al, when I had to repair an old wedge-arm plow it was the fence that had been split. It would have been very difficult to get glue down in that crack unless I actually *broke* the fence. I used the very thin cyanoacrylate (sp?) and a shop vac. The vac nozzle on the bottom of the crack sucked the glue right in from the top. The plane works fine now that the wobbly fence is fixed (cracked at one pin holding an arm on). One more data point to consider... Darrell Oakville ON Wood Hoarder, Blade Sharpener, and Occasional Tool User ------- Subject: Re: glue to use [ON WOOD WHERE THERE IS A GAP] From: Ken Pendergrass Date: Wed, 07 Jan 2004 21:04:02 -0500 >John Sawchak said: > Gorilla Glue) is that the gap-filling quality is a misconception. It > does foam slightly as it cures, but the foam has no real strength. True no doubt. The only glue with true gap filling properties is epoxy. However where Gorilla can help with a gap is a situation where one of the boards to be joined is flat except for a small low area and joining until the whole piece is flat will render it too thin. It's expansion will fill and camouflage the gap while the rest of the joint will more than hold it. Gorilla can be real frustrating thing to work with. The expansion will separate the joint and make clamping really fun. I don't use it if I don't have to. For most situations regular Titebond type glue is more than enough and I also keep a gallon of epoxy and several pounds of hide glue which is what I use the most. Ken ------- Subject: RE: glue to use oldtools digest From: "John Sawchak" Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2004 04:54:03 -0600 John Sawchak said: >>On a more basic level I cringe thinking we have another plastic product. >>The thing people forget about plastics is that UV light eventually >>breaks down the plasticizers which means eventually they break. I'd hate >>to go through so much work for a nice project and have a glue joint come >>apart in the future because a chair sat near a window or somesuch. Steve from Kokomo >Is this really a factor? Glue joints by definition are mostly concealed >by opaque wood. How far does the UV effect extend into the joint? >Inquiring galoots want to know. I'm not saying that as a fact directly relative to polyurethane glue I simply threw it out there as a known fact that COULD be another possibility which in comparison with glue technologies that already work fine, why risk it? We all know a properly made wood glue joint is stronger than the wood itself. It's just that so often I see these "great NEW advances" come out in something.... ANYTHING... and they often end up having their own downfall revealed after they have been used for awhile and sometimes it is worse than the item it is being replaced. Margarine replaced Butter and was touted as the best new safe thing until Trans-saturated fatty acids came along. Vegetable shortenings like Crisco until we learned hydrogenated vegetables oils are just as bad for the human heart and vessels as cholesterol is, if not worse. Vinyl Siding replaced cedar bevel lap siding and now the colors fade and the stuff has so little ability to breathe that it often causes the house to have a moisture problem in the wall which ends up rotting out the sill plate. I've seen one neighbor trying to spray bug spray up there while they never had problems when they had the cedar siding. Vinyl siding cracks eventually. If you think about this I am sure you can think of dozens of new things that had more drawbacks to them that we did not discover until decades of use. Here's a few more.... Teflon is now being worried about as a poison since at above 400 degrees it can release dangerous fumes into our air. So far only pet birds have died. Scotchgard is now one of the biggest pollutants in the human body due to its overwhelming use particularly in carpets. Wool carpets don't have this problem. Green treated wood with CCA gets into garden grown vegetables (and these people thought they were growing something healthier than what is available at their grocery store) and poisoned children to some degree. One has to wonder if certain things MARKETED as improvements are really improvements or are they just some- thing new? And the public has this fallacy of nearly mythological proportions that anything NEW must be BETTER. That's exactly why I like groups like this so much. They don't buy into those notions for whatever reason. Some of us go to the opposite extreme. Matter of fact I would love to hear from everybody here why they think old tools are so great. Is it history, is it some guy version of a romantic notion, is it tactile.... what is it? (an aside on this -- it doesn't surprise me to see in the bios I have seen here than many here are computer programmers and similar mind-oriented jobs because one possible interpretation of this is that these people are seeking a natural balance -- do something with mostly your mind all day and it is a great change of pace to use the hands with a nice quiet hand tool that demands some attention to the detail of the grain of wood being worked. I think there is a centuries old wisdom is this kind of work and the feeling of satisfaction it produces.) I present the UV possibility as just that, an unrevealed possibility. Time will tell. It is my hunch that polyurethane glue will have some downfall that can not or has not been revealed through industry standardized environmental simulation tests. It would not surprise me if it is linked to UV. That's all I am saying. And I really do hate the idea that plastic is replacing so much which is also why I am such a big advocate of all the old world oil finishes which I was originally taught to use a good decade before I ever even heard of polyurethane. Almost everything marketed to us has some sort of downfall whether the makers/inventors know it when they are selling it to us or not. I think polyurethane as a glue has not been around long enough to reveal what this is. We know what problems polyurethane as a finish has UV problems and horrible adhesion, most notably. ------- Subject: Re: Activator for CA glue From: Jim Thompson Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2004 06:17:34 -0800 I recently used some CA on a piece that I was going to turn in the lathe. I used the activator on it and a while later when I thought it had all cured I turned the lathe on. I got an awful dose of fumes from the CA which spun out like a spider web and covered me and everything else in the shop. Fortunately it cured as it flew through the air and was no more bothersome than a spider web to clean up. But the smell was almost overwhelming. Jim Thompson, the old millrat in Riverside, CA ------- Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2004 22:45:18 -0000 From: "Radish" Subject: Re: Brass to aluminum ectrolysis? "Bryan Hassing" wrote: > Hi: A few months ago, I turned some aluminum wheels on the lathe for > my model truck project. I then super-glued brass 00-90 hex nuts to > the wheels to simulate lug nuts. The brass nuts were chemically > blacked with "Blacken-It" prior to gluing them on the aluminum > wheels. I've worked on other parts of the model in the intervening > months and pulled the wheels out this morning to find a white crusty > substance surrounding the brass hex nuts. I am curious whether this > is the product of electrolysis between the two metals and something > that will require period re-cleaning. If so, I will have to remove > the hex nuts and replace them with either aluminum or plastic hex. > Does anyone here know whether the product of electrolysis (or galvanic > corrosion) between brass and aluminum is a white crusty product? What you have got here is caused by the SUPER GLUE that you have used to stick the brass to the aluminium. If you just happened to use any 'ole super glue or cheapy super glue, you have what is called bloom where the gases released by the glue when drying, have discoloured the bits that were glued. What you will have to do is get hold of a pamphlet that has been produced LOCTITE that describes all the DIFFERENT TYPES of super glue that they make and pick on one type that does not bloom when curing. radish ------- Subject: Re: Epoxy Diet [FILLING CRACKS IN WOOD PARTS] oldtools digest From: Larry Marshall Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2004 07:41:54 -0400 [LOADING A STRAW WITH EPOXY, THEN INSERTING THE STRAW END INTO A CRACK, AND SQUEEZING THE STRAW TO FILL THE CRACK] If it's a real straw, it's large enough that you can sort of 'shovel' it in, just sliding the straw through the blob (tech term) of mixed epoxy. I've never gotten a straw/plunger system that could provide sufficient vacuum to actually suck up thick epoxy. That's why I mentioned that the tiny tube was hard to fill. > > One can also thin epoxy with alcohol. This extends the set time [NOTE TO FILE: Use 99% isopropyl alcohol, and hardening times will be days -- not weeks -- but only if the item is kept above 70 deg F during the curing. In a workshop much colder than 70 deg F, diluted epoxy will stay soft and sticky for weeks.] This is the REAL trick of epoxy manipulation. It gets used regularly by people building models using epoxy and fibreglass. Here's another one. Often, when filling cracks, you're not really need really high strength. If you're willing to sacrifice a bit on strength, you can fill those cracks with finishing resin rather than epoxy glue. This stuff has two virtues, though it doesn't provide quite the glue strength. The first is that it's thinner than glue epoxy. It also dries harder, making the results of sanding much better as epoxy glue tends to be a bit rubbery in the face of sandpaper. All of the major makers of epoxy glues make finishing resin as well. Unfortunately, most also don't sell it in anything less than quart cans. BUT, one company, Pacer Technologies sells Z-poxy which is finishing resin in smaller (I think they're 8oz) bottles and the stuff works wonderful. Comes in a box with the two bottles and avaiable where they cater to radio control model airplane afficionados. If the quarts are satisfactory, boat-building suppliers will have finishing resins. Cheers Larry Marshall Quebec City, QC http://www.woodnbits.com ------- Date: Fri, 28 May 2004 18:45:27 +0100 To: From: "Graham Knight" Subject: Re: [ffml] 5 minute epoxies I expect someone will tell me this is a gross oversimplification, but it's basically Perspex (Plexiglass) in the form of a 2 pack adhesive, mix the two parts together and they cure to form a clear solid acrylic. The same stuff (or very similar) is used to fix stone chips in car windscreens, mend broken fingernails, and I believe in dentistry? My experience of 2 pack acrylic adhesives is that they will stick many things that epoxies won't, often stick better than epoxy, and are more tolerant of less than perfectly clean surfaces. Graham in Shepperton, England S.A.M. Zero, 35 & 1066 Raynes Park MAC Secretary studio7x~xxntlworld.com http://website.lineone.net/~raynes.pk.mac/ ------- Subject: RE: Hide glue oldtools digest From: Walter Anderson Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2004 06:16:37 -0700 (PDT) Anthony D'Liberti asked some questions about hide glue: >1. hide glue is the strongest bond there is, >2. hide glue is the weakest bond there is, Neither is true. Hide glue is capable of forming a stronger bond than the surrounding wood. It is also able to be reversed using water, heat and/or sharp blows. >3. hide glue should be the first choice Matter of preference >4. hide glue should only be used when you need a longer open time Hide glue's open time depends upon many factors-temperature, whether urea has been added, etc... >5. hide glue grabs faster then other glues I don't know anything about this aspect. >6. hide glue joint can be moved over a much longer period Since it's reversible it can be moved indefinitely. >7. hide glue should only be used if you'll need to take the joint apart Certainly one good reason to use it; however, in my mind this overlooks the fact that taking a joint apart is often nescessary for repair work. >8. hide glue is the least water resistant True. Water is one of the methods used to reverse joints. >9. will a joint put together with hide glue outlive me once the piece has been oiled and waxed? Has as good a chance as just about any glue joint, but if it does fail it can be repaired easily. Not usually the case with other glues. >10. is the bond strong enough to hold up under the strain of daily use, things like tables, chairs & benchs, undergo? Its held up for thousands of years. It is the only type of glue until fairly recently. >11. is there any real down side to using hide glue? It takes some equipment (not much) and some prep time. Well that's just my $0.11 ! Walt ------- Subject: Re: Hide glue oldtools digest From: Richard.Wilsonx~xxsalvesen.com Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2004 14:19:10 +0100 Anthony asks some pointed questions. . . >1. will a joint put together with hide glue out live me once the piece has been oiled and waxed? >2. is the bond strong enough to hold up under the strain of daily use things like tables, chairs >& benchs, undergo? >3. is there any real down side to using hide glue? Like most of life, your contrarywise quotes are each part true. When deciding to use hide glue or another, some things to consider would be.. 1) It *can* outlive you - most of the quality furniture of the last 500 years used it, so why not you? 2) strength? - see 1) but consider that furniture was in the main in an unheated environment, and fell apart when moved to tropical humidity. Mortice and tenons were pinned as an aid to strength, and almost all joints had some mechanical component of the join to support the glue. 3) It redissolves when wet. It most definitely isn't as 'strong' as a modern chemical glue, and some may say that using hot hide glue is trickier than squeezing a plastic bottle. The trouble is that the conditions of use can be so variable. If you're hammer veneering, then it's a perfect glue - grabs quickly, it's reversable, kind to timber, washes off, and so on. If you're veneering a huge item in a vacuum press though, you may choose to use a poly.... glue because it will stay open longer while you fiddle with the press. If you're in a warm, dry workshop, then its good. If you're outdoors, or in an unheated workshop in winter its bad. If you're making rubbed joints on your drawer bottoms, then it's fast and good. If you always cramp such joints then it may be pointless. Or if your drawer is to hold wet fish - then again bad, but warm blankets would be good. See what I mean? The best advice would be to try some to get the feel of *how* to use it, then consider each job individually. I really like it for items that may be 'conservation grade' and of course for antique repairs it's the best around. Joints will come apart with alcohol or steam/wet and can be mended similarly. Buy some, try some. make up your mind.. Richard Wilson Yorkshireman Galoot ------- Subject: RE: Hide glue oldtools digest From: Thomas Conroy Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2004 12:24:26 -0700 (PDT) Oo, oo, I know this one! Anthony D' Liberti asked: "11. is there any real down side to using hide glue?" Well, yes, I use it every day for weeks at a time, and it is undeniably fussy. A properly made joint with hide glue is easier to make than any other, far stronger than it needs to be in a temperate climate, and easily reversed if the need arises. It is more pleasant to work with than any other glue. But you have to be meticulous about glue preparation. Be patient. I'm good at down sides. Look at this albatross around my neck... In drying, hide glue goes through three phases. First, while it is hot and wet, it is immediately tacky and moderately strong. You can place to pieces together and they will stick without clamps, but you can also move them around a bit, or pull them apart and put them down again, and they will still stick. Traditional table tops were glued up and rubbed together, then put aside without clamps or biscuits, and they can last for hundreds of years. This first phase might last a couple of minutes, maybe even as much as fifteen, depending on the quality and age of the glue, temperature of the work, temperature of the room, amount of water in the glue, and so on. Lots to fuss about already. The second phase is while the glue is wet and cold. In this phase the glue loses almost all its strength and will not re-stick if the joint comes undone. If you glue up your table top and lean it against the wall, then nudge it twenty minutes later, it will fall apart (but, of course, then you just reglue it). Also, if the glue gets cold before the pieces come together, as can easily happen in a chilly room (even 55 or 65 degrees F) the glue will not stick in the first place. I would guess that people who have tried hot glue and find it weak are most often suffering from chilled joints, not weak glue; maybe they did a slow clamp-up in a cold room and the glue never properly stuck at all. A minor benefit: if you don't smear around a glue drip trying to wipe it up, you can wait a quarter-hour until it is cold and then lift it off whole without a trace. Same goes for squeeze-out, except for the danger of breaking the joint while it is weak. This phase will last some hours, depending on how long it takes for the moisture to work itself out of the joint and evaporate. Overnight is a safe estimate. Finally, when the glue is dry and cold the glue develops its full strength. If the joint is made properly, hot glue easily passes the universal test of strength for woodworking: the wood breaks before the glue. What more could you want? Stronger glues are a silly chimera: --all-- woodworking glues are strong enough if the joint is made properly. So this is the first point of fuss: you have to be careful of the temperature of the work, the glue, and the room; and you don't have forever to make the joint, though there is enough time provided you don't wander off dreaming somewhere. Notice also that a lot of the apparent contradictions in what people say can now be understood: glue is both strong and weak, slow and fast, depending on which phase it is in. Next point of fuss, hot glue is liable to change and degradation in the pot. For use the solution should be about 150 degrees F; if it gets much hotter it will "carmelize:" the molecules of the polymer break down and the glue becomes very weak, darker, more brittle, and at a constant water content more viscous. Electric hot glue pots are designed to keep a steady correct temperature. In addition, if hot glue stays a long time at 150 F., or if it is frequently reheated, it will break down then too; so you shouldn't make up a pot and use it for months and months until it is done, much less add fresh glue to old glue in a pot. In good bindery practice, hot glue would be made fresh at the start of the week, and anything left would be thrown away at the end of the week. This was found to be much cheaper as well as better for the work: old glue doesn't stick very well, and you have to use lots of it. For small projects you should make up a small batch. Just like shellac, in case this seems a big strain. The glue must be soaked cold overnight before being melted. This is to allow the water to penetrate into the centers of the granules; finer-ground glue takes less time to soak, but there isn't that much choice on this factor. Good fresh glue can be used much thinner than you would think; if you lift the brush from the pot it should run freely off and rattle as it lands, maybe about the consistancy of thin cream. If your glue is the thickness of maple syrup, as happens with most novices, then it is far too thick. A dab of glue tested between thumb and forefinger should be slithery at first, but should develop lots of tack with a few seconds patience. As they day goes on the water will evaporate due to the heat of the pot, and you must add more water, preferably warm water, from time to time to keep the concentration steady. Judging the concentration takes some practice, but small differences don't matter much; the trouble is that evaporation is constant, and gets faster as the glue level gets lower. Evaporation takes place much faster if the surface area is large in proportion to the volume, so the pot should always be kept pretty full; shallow glue means you have to pay it constant attention. If you want to use a small quantity (a tablespoon of glue to three of water will last me at least a week, but a big piece of furniture might take more) use a small pot. By the way, it isn't necessary to buy a purpose-made electric glue pot. Even the smallest ones hold enough for a production shop in full swing, and they don't work well with small quantities (the surface area is way too big, and the glue gets more concentrated really fast). For small jobs get an electric cup warmer for fifteen bucks new and put your glue in a little glass jar on it. I like the smaller jars gefillte fish comes in, but baby food jars would be better for small projects. Hot glue is a natural product, and it will go moldy in the pot. It is fine if you melt it every day, but if you don't use it for three days in a temperate climate you will have fur on the surface. This is for pearl glue, the highest grade and what I prefer (never use so-called "rabbit skin" glue, which is trash). Throw the glue away if this happens: the fur is just reproductive organs, the mold itself is down in the body of the glue, and you don't want to transfer that to your wood. Some hot glues are made with fungicides in them, which makes them dangerous to your health and, after all, why bother if you are throwing the batch out in a week anyway? Hot glue is an impure form of gelatine, and if it has no preservatives in it if a nourishing food product. (I hasten to add that I assume that even glues that go moldy have some form of preservative in them.) Glue in the pot does have a smell, sometimes moderately strong, sometimes completely unnoticable, and some people dislike it. If the glue smells really foul, though, it has probably spoiled and should be discarded. With really good glue the smell makes me hungry. So it really mostly comes down to fuss and knowledge. Most of the apparent contradictions are resolved if you know how hot glue works (for instance your points 5 and 6, how it can have both a fast hard grab and a long open time). If you have the patience to read this you have the patience to use it. Lots of fuss, lots of knowledge, lots of skill, lots of time: why would a galoot use anything else? Tom Conroy Berkeley ------- Subject: Re: Hide glue oldtools digest From: Scott Stager Date: Thu, 03 Jun 2004 09:02:44 -0500 Ot of curiousity, I recently added a small amount of hide glue crystals to a Highland Hardware order. I had never used the stuff, but was fascinated by prior descriptions here on the porch about "rub joints". It works !!!!! I mixed up a couple of tablespoons of the granules with waterin a plastic disposable jello/pudding cup. After a few hours soak, I put the cup in a surplus electric Pot Pourri pot (mini crock pot for heading aromatics to scent a room) with water. I find these pots for a $1 or so at garage sales. Tested the temp with a cooking thermometer. Was in the vicinity of temperatures galoots have suggested. Grabbed two small pieces of scrap pine - dimensioned lumber cuttofs - edges and face with original surfaces - no additional surface prep. Brushed on glue, made a butt joint - edge to face, held together in hand for a minute or so, and set to dry overnight - no clamps. Haven't actually tried to break the joint with pliers or clamps, but can't break it by hand. Amazing - and really cool. Scott ------- Subject: RE: Hide glue oldtools digest From: Thomas Conroy Date: Thu, 3 Jun 2004 12:29:53 -0700 (PDT) Galoots: Well, when you write a long description in a rush you can't get everything in right, can you? I feel neatly skewered by a couple of questions and gaps. Better put the coffee pot on, this is going to be a long one (or better yet, sneak off to the shop for a while). Brent Beach asked, quite reasonably (the skewer came later, and in other hands): "The above paragraph suggests that the pot is kept covered when not in use. Right?" I didn't mean to suggest that the gluepot is normally kept covered, though this seems an obvious precaution. Old pre-electric gluepots are castiron double boilers, usually of very small glue capacity, say a cup or even less. I have never used one of these, but I have an impression that they sometimes come with a lid with a cut-out for a brush; usually, though, they don't have a lid. All the gluepots I have used are lidless, all the hot glue pots for sale now are lidless, and lidless was certainly normal for electric glue pots in binderies back to the twenties at least. Some catalogs of binders supplies from before World War II show a few lidded electric glue pots with the normal lidless ones, with, of course, the little cut-out for the handle of the glue brush. My impression is that these lids would be domed and arranged so that moisture condensing on the lid would drip back into the pot. For a glass jar the original lid might not be quite the thing since the water would drip outside the jar, not into it, but it would be easy enough to improvise something, even a little cap of tin foil. As to why lids never caught on, I don't know: maybe it was just the consensus that the fuss of dealing with the lid was more than the fuss of adding water once in a while. When I am not actively using glue I usually take it off the heat for a while; at the start of the day it takes a while for both the cup warmer and the glue to warm up, but once the glue is melted it stays melted for an hour or two and doesn't take very long to heat up again to working temperature. "a small baby food jar with the lid on on one of these will do the job?" A baby food jar would hold enough glue for me to use for a day of binding, with one or two tablespoons of pearl glue granules, but a long brush can make so small a jar tip over easily (brush handles can be cut short, though). I would like more than this for glue-up on a big piece of furniture, a one-cup pyrex measuring cup on my bench looks like it would hold a good maximum for a cup warmer and plenty for glue-up on one piece of furniture--- I haven't done much of this, but would you ever use a full one-cup bottle of yellow glue in one glue-up? "Any really good mailorder sources for hide glue?" Nothing out-of-the-way simple. I usually use pearl glue, a high-quality hot glue that comes in granules and which has no process additives. I buy mine from BookMakers International in Maryland (don't know their web address off hand, but they must have one); this is pretty much a general-purpose glue, and I also use it when I use hot glue for woodworking--- I have to confess, my woodworking is at home and I usually don't mix up hot glue for it; I use yellow glue when I forget to bring hot glue home from work. Most bookbinders' hot glues have additives to make them rubbery and flexible (this used to be glycerine or sorbitol to hold water in the dry glue, probably still the same), a property that is needed for a book spine to open but which is certainly not desirable for woodworking; most binders' hot glues also have fungicides added to prevent the growth of mold in the glue pot, but I don't want fungicides because I think they encourage use of glue that is too old. Garrett Wade carries hot glue, I think packaged by Behlen, but I have never used it. Still, for woodworking I would prefer to use glue prepared for woodworking. A warning about rabbitskin glue will follow in a moment. Richard Wilson pointed out that, in effect, I claimed that hot glue will not work in England. After all, he suggests, in the burning heat of indolent summer "around here 65 degrees has newspaper headlines of 'phew what a scorcher' and my unheated workshop stays more like 50 summat than 60 summat..." That little ring on the end of the skewer looks sort of funny sticking out there, doesn't it? Glad I know its all done with the best of wills and friendship. Plainly I got the temperature wrong (wonder if I could claim I was talking about degrees Kelvin?... or maybe pretend that he is taling centigrade?... no, won't work, can't save face that way). Here's the experience I went from: a few years ago the heat in my house was out and I spent the winter in one room with an electric heater, but the workroom was unheated. That year I had trouble with cloth not sticking to book spines. In my haste yesterday I was assuming that the temperature was in the 50s, a chilly day in my neck of the woods, but with consideration it was more likely in the high 30s or 40s. Can't really say what the little numbers would be, but there can definitely be a working problem on cold days. It isn't really a trap, you can't mistake the problem, because if the room or the work are too cold the glue just doesn't stick. And there is certainly no immunity to it in England, since IIRC most of the older British books on woodworking talk about warming joints and veneers in front of a fire of shavings before glue-up. I hope Richard's enthusiasm for primitive folk practices... maybe I should rephrase that... noooo... doesn't extend to this method of warming work, though, since the same books also talk about how often workshops burned down when the fires spread. "BTW isn't rabbit glue the favourite for gilding?" Wouldn't be surprised; it is, or was, the preferred glue to make gesso when priming canvas, anyway. Don't know which working properties make it good for those uses. I feel a fit coming on---alas, alas, I have to explain how glue is made to explain rabbit skin glue. Here's what happens (better take a swig of coffee for this one): hot glues and gelatine are made by boiling hide scraps in water, or by cooking bones in steam. Water is mixed with clippings, boiled for a while, then decanted off. This solution is dried and has very long molecules. More water is put on the hide scraps, it is boiled more vigorously, and another batch is taken off; this has shorter molecules. You might boil one batch of hides ten times, each boiling getting progressively shorter. Steaming the bones brings out the same stuff, also in progressive lots, but to get any out of the bones you must heat them more vigorously than hides, so the longest-molecule bone glue is only as long as a medium-molecule hide glue. Also, the steaming of bones brings over a certain proportion of salts and other contaminants. All glues and gelatines are made by blending different batches to get consistant properties; all are mixtures of bone and hide. The longest molecule products are phot, pharmeceutical, and food grade gelatines. High-quality glues like pearl glue are shorter and mostly hide. Low-quallity glues like rabbitskin glue are mostly bone. There are still a lot of industrial uses for hot glue (like making abrasive papers), and I presume the poor glues go there. Long-molecule (high-grade) glue has working and other properties different from short-molecule glue. The measurements defining grades of glue are viscosity and "gell strength" at a fixed concentration, but in use it is more important that high-grade glue will absorb more water and make a stronger bond for a particular gell strength (think of a bowl of jello that will not support a light weight, and one that will support a heavy weight) (I mean the jello will support, not the bowl will support...). Low-grade glue makes bonds that are weak and brittle, and they absorb litle water so the solution is viscous and holds the workpieces apart, and to the best of my knowledge it becomes irreversable with time. For me it matters that low-grade glue is very dark, soaks deeply into paper and then stains it permanently, but this probably doesn't matter for woodworking. Rabbit skin glue sounds like it ought to be pretty good, doesn't it? All the time to harvest those cute little rabbits, and the cost of a raw material that could go into fur coats? Well, actually, rabbit skin glue is a very low grade, short-molecule, dark, highly acid bone glue. I remember my book conservation teacher, who did a lot of work with art on paper, saying "rabbit skin glue" with a particular venom in his voice: he had treaded many Audobon bird prints broke from their original elephant folios in the 1950s and glued with the stuff to cardboard made of floor sweepings and old newsprint, and these were almost impossible to ressurect--- the glue stains would strike through to the fromt of the print and could not be bleached out. In the same way, "lanolin" isn't wool fat anymore: it is hog lard, very carefully defined hog lard with very specific properties. Wonder what that mink oil for boots is made of... Rabbit skin glue is real crud, from an adhesive point of view. Sound like you could just use Knox (common food-grade gelatine, Jeff) for its purity and strength? Nossir. Book conservators do this. I have done it. The trouble is that having long molecules changes the working properties of the material. You can use high-grade gelatine for an adhesive, but the phases of drying are altered by the molecule length. The hot-and-wet period during which the adhesive has tack is extremely short with gelatine, so you have to glue up, put the piece down, and have it all done in about three seconds or it will not stick. Then, during the cold-and-wet period during which the adhesive is weak, gelatine is far weaker than shorter-molecule glues. You might not even be able to do a rubbed joint with gelatine, since the adhesive is wet and would make the wood move just enough to pull apart the extra-weak joint. Oh, you can use gelatine as an adhesive, but it is extra-fussy and takes extra skill and a lot more drying time. I do it for very special books, but I wouldn't even try for wood. No reason to, for one thing. This matter of working properties is really important with various glues. Rabbit skin glue has rotten properties for paper, and I would guess for wood, but that doesn't mean it is wrong for gesso under gold leaf: it may have just the right properties for that. I don't know, I don't do that kind of gilding. Its all hot glue; but such differences! Like a lot of galootish things. For woodworking, I would use a hot glue prepared for woodworking until some problem arises. Tom Conroy, in relief that --that's-- over for the moment. At work in San Francisco where its the kind of day that led Mark Twain to say "The coldest winter I ever spent was summer in San Francisco." ------- Subject: Re: Hide glue-And Now For Something Completely Different oldtools digest From: "Eduardo De Diego" Date: Fri, 4 Jun 2004 11:54:31 -0400 Hello Galooti; Since many old tools relate to leather in one way or another, you may be interested that PURE lanolin is used by museum conservators to rejuvenate and preserve old leather, some of which may be thousands of years old (for example Roman infantry sandals) I buy pure lanolin from a pharmacist for the purpose of preserving the thin leather folding bellows on old cameras. Since the dispensed lanolin is quite stiff for my purposes, I cut it with a suitable solvent such as methyl hydrate that evaporates without leaving any residue, leaving a thin application of lanolin to soak into the leather. Obviously, varying the amounts of solvent gives mixtures that can have various viscosities, to allow for application to delicate or less delicate surfaces. Camera bellows can be very delicate since they are usually a sandwich of leather, cardboard and fabric. Once the carrier evaporates, you are left with only the pure lanolin on the piece. I would imagine that leather bound books would enjoy similar, delicate treatment. I got this trick from museum conservators up here in the frosty North, where we have an abbreviated rust hunting season. Ed Ottawa, Ontario, Canada ------- Subject: Re: Re/metalurgy From: bugbear Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2004 09:13:22 +0100 Mark Marsay wrote: >> I usually use cutlers resin when attaching handles to blades - seems to work better than epoxy with the marking knives and various odd shaped scraper knives and chip carving knives I sometimes make. Cutlers resin is 8 oz pine pitch, 1/4 cup Carnauba wax and 4 oz beeswax, melted together in a double boiler and used hot. Make sure you preheat the items to be joined as well. << Recipe left in for interest. What are the advantages (apart from galootishness!) of this over epoxy? BugBear ------- Subject: Re: Re/metalurgy From: Mark Marsay Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2004 09:29:28 +0100 Hi mate, Well, apart from the galootishness of it, it is probably the best glue for attaching dissimilar materials I have come across. It holds like mad, yet has enough flex to allow differential expansion, and it doesn't creep, allowing you to use it on bone or ivory without staining. It is also a huge amount easier to clean up runs and squelches than epoxy is. As you are in the UK, you can get pine pitch from Baldwins, just off the Elephant and Castle. I think they have a web site - you'll have to google for Baldwins herballist. BTW, Baldwins are also good for most natural colouring agent - I get all my alkanet and logwood from them! Regards, Mark Marsay, Restorer, Tool and Box dealer. Check http://mysite.freeserve.com/mc_antiques/index.html for antique tool and boxes. [Later post:] Logwood is a fine dye, though it is somewhat tricky to handle properly. Alkanet is my standard for all mahogany work and is so easy to use it is ridiculous. Just take some ground alkanet root, dried, and put it in turpentine (note: white spirit or turpentine substitute doesn't work too well) leave it for a few days to a month, then filter and mix 50:50 with BLO. Apply to the wood - use a couple of coats, then shellac over. For a rich red, put the wood you treated in the sun for a couple days. To fade the new stuff to match an exsisting piece of timber, in a restoration for example, put it under a UV lamp for a couple days - the colour develops then fades again. Can't help with stateside addresses, but run a search for herballists - most natural dyes, and indeed most natural finishes, have medicinal value and are used in herbal medicines. Don't bother with places that deal with packaged remedies, look for places that sell the herbs themselves. ------- Subject: RE: Re/metalurgy From: Richard.Wilsonx~xxsalvesen.com Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2004 09:50:54 +0100 This would seem to be the gloop used in affixing 'bone' handles all down the years. Would it be correct to surmise that it is reversable by application of heat? And, if so, it won't be dishwasher proof - hence the stricture on not dishwashering 'bone' handles. Excellent recipe though - must give it a try. Richard Wilson Yorkshireman Galoot ------- Subject: RE: Re/metalurgy From: Mark Marsay Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2004 10:02:17 +0100 It is fine with moderate heat. Bone items should not be put into the dishwasher as the cleanser and heat stain the bone quite badly, as well as softening it. Regards, Mark Marsay ------- Subject: September's recipe - Culter's Resin From: Mark Marsay Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2004 21:04:40 +0100 [in response to a strong group request that he publish all his recipes, about one per month] OK, full version of the recipe with answers to comments so far. This will be available on the website in a couple of days, leaving time for any further comments and questions. CUTLER'S RESIN I usually use cutlers resin when attaching handles to blades - seems to work better than epoxy with the marking knives and various odd shaped scraper knives and chip carving knives I sometimes make. Cutlers resin recipe: 8 oz pine pitch, 1/4 cup Carnauba wax 4 oz beeswax, Melt together in a double boiler. Use the resin hot, at about 45 degrees Centigrade (just hot enough to be uncomfortable if you put a drop on your elbow). Make sure you preheat the items to be joined as well with a spirit burner flame, hot air gun or blowtorch, trying to keep the items to be joined about the same temperature as the resin. Ensure you roughen the metal very slightly to provide a key for the resin to adhere to initially. Notes: This is probably the best glue for attaching dissimilar materials I have come across. It holds like mad, yet has enough flex to allow differential expansion, and it doesn't creep, allowing you to use it on bone or ivory without staining. It is also a huge amount easier to clean up runs and squelches than epoxy is. It is fine with moderate heat. Bone handled knives are not dishwasher safe, but that has very little to do with the resin. Cleanser and heat stain the bone quite badly, as well as softening it. Pine pitch is the semi-liquid form of rosin for violin bows. If you get rosin, dissolve in 2/3 the amount of turpentine by volume, over a water bath. Pine tar is not appropriate for cutlers resin as it is too dilute - about 75% turpentine, as well as having large amounts of carbon present - hence the blackness! Pine pitch is obtained from various species of pine in the same manner latex or sugar maple sap is, by tapping the tree, while pine tar is made by heating the pine roots in a controlled amount of air to prevent burning. Those of you with wood stoves or fireplaces know all about pine tar! I have seen a method of purifying pine tar to rosin - used by a luthier I know in the Alps around Torino who also runs a couple hundred head of sheep - but it is seriously long term, to say the least. The pine tar is dissolved in 7 times its volume of pure turpentine over a gentle source of heat - a water bath is best, though dissolving in a metal bowl on the radiator does work. It is then passed through a coffee filter, diluted a further 25% with turpentine and filtered again. The liquid is then left in a container in the sun until it has reduced to the consistancy of heavy honey (US version) or golden syrup (UK version). You now have pine pitch, though not as pure as using straight pitch or dissolving rosin. I just ran up to the shop and tested - with my marking knife attached to a ceiling clamp by the blade, I was able to hang from the handle with no ill effects to the joint. Regards, Mark Marsay, Restorer, Tool and Box dealer. Check http://mysite.freeserve.com/mc_antiques/index.html for antique tool and boxes. http://mysite.wanadoo-members.co.uk/restorer for the monthly woodworking recipe archive ------- Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2005 10:39:38 -0400 To: "FFML" From: "Ian L. McQueen" Subject: Adhesives and plastics Bill Kuhl wrote: >>I bought more plastic storage tubs for models [WE ARE TALKING ABOUT MODEL AIRCRAFT HERE] and supplies. The ones I found at Wally World are 3 feet long, 19" wide and about 7" deep. Is there any glue that will stick to that translucent plastic? Bill Kuhl << Interesting that this question from Bill came in at the time when I was thinking about adhesives and "plastics". I put the quote marks because there is a whole family of plastics. As we know, probably from experience, there is nothing that sticks well to the waxy plastics like polyethylene and polypropylene, two plastics widely used for things just like the storage tubs because the plastic is strong enough, is translucent, and molds easily. One thing that I have found that does stick well to all these plastics is the tape for the seams of housewrap. The most common brand of the latter is Tyvek, a Dupont name. Here in Canada, the tape is called Tuck Tape and is manufactured by Canadian Technical Tape Ltd. It's red and 60mm (about 2-3/8") wide. I suspect that the plastic is polyester, because it is very strong. I presume that the same product is available in the USA, though I don't know about the southern states where, I understand, housewrap is not commonly used. (I stand to be corrected. That's how I learn things.) If the tape is available where you live, Bill, and if the bright red color and black printing are not objectionable, you could use the tape to stick dividers to the plastic walls. This tape could also be used to hold together plastic models, though it would not look very attractive. I am going to contact the company and see if they are willing to divulge where they buy their adhesive. It might be a product usable for gluing together all kinds of plastic parts, making Depron models easier to assemble, for example. I recently received a small packet in the mail. It was in a padded envelope sold by Canada Post. The interior is conventional bubble pack, while the exterior [not Tyvek] is a slippery plastic, like polyethylene or polypropylene. The envelope is self-sealing, and the adhesive holding the flap down is very strong. I sent an e-mail off to Canada Post last night to ask the name of the manufacturer of the envelopes (so I can ask about the manufacturer of the adhesive). I expect a 5% chance of getting an answer, but who knows. I want to look into the possibility of marketing an adhesive for slippery plastics. Ian ------- Date: Thu, 29 Dec 2005 20:10:41 -0800 (PST) To: ffmlx~xxsmartgroups.com From: Lee Campbell Subject: Re: [ffml] Storage Tubs The tubs I have from Wal-Mart have two trays in the top for misc stuff. I use 3M 77 glue to lable the ends. With a wide enough connector, it will work as a divider. Lee Campbell ------- Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2005 14:00:47 -0500 To: ffmlx~xxsmartgroups.com From: Hank Nystrom Subject: Re: [ffml] Storage Tubs Bill, I have used hot melt glue with foam core dividers in the Wallyworld plastic tubs and they held fine. Hank in the hills ------- Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2006 09:42:16 -0800 (PST) From: Ken Cutting Subject: [OldTools] Galoo - Uh, I mean Glue-t's I feel a serious lack of knowledge when it comes to glues. It doesn't matter what kind. Wood glues, polyurathane glues, cyanoacrylate glue (CA glues), epoxies. I just had a terrible experience with Behlen Epoxy Putty. I was filling a defect (relatively large) in the timbers I've been working for my bench and I chose this product for it's so-called "planability" - I guess it depends on your definition of planability - three passes and your blade is dull enough that it can't cut snow if it was hot as a skillet - hey, this stuff is planable! After sharpening more times than I could count I got rid of most of it by chopping it out with my poor 2 inch James Swan socket chisel. I replaced it with Gorilla Glue which is much nicer although the surface is porous contrasted with a nice surface from the epoxy from hell. I plan on doing some pore packing on the Gorilla Glue then trying to color match it and blend it in. Well, let's hear it all - what glues/adhesives do you use and in what situations? I think brand names can be helpful so don't hold back. Typical disclaimer. Ken Cutting ------- Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2006 13:03:35 -0500 From: "Jack Kamishlian" Subject: Re: [OldTools] Galoo - Uh, I mean Glue-t's I've had relatively good luck with sawdust mixed in with yellow woodworker's glue. It does tend to shrink, and will take more than one application for sizable holes. But finishing it off has not been a problem. I used it on my bench, and it's still OK. Cheers, Jack in Endwell, NY ------- Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2006 14:53:24 -0500 From: nicknaylox~xxaol.com Subject: Fwd: [OldTools] Galoo - Uh, I mean Glue-t's I've had relatively good luck with sawdust mixed in with yellow woodworker's glue. It does tend to shrink, and will take more than one application for sizable holes. But finishing it off has not been a problem. I used it on my bench, and it's still OK. Glue-T's, rather than Yellow glue, or any glue for that matter, I've filled holes using a mix of sawdust and the finish I'm planning for my topcoat, usually but not always shellac. Seems to blend right in with the topcoats and doesn't end up any darker than the surrounding wood. For glues, I use Titebond II and Gorilla Glue, with a dash of 5 minute epoxy (the kind in the double syringe) for almost everything. Never used hide glue, and CA doesn't seem right for woodworking, though Scott Adams, the Ned Flanders of woodworking does seem to use it quite a bit. Michael San Francisco ------- Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2006 15:31:23 -0500 From: "Bob Sturgeon" Subject: Re: [OldTools] Galoo - Uh, I mean Glue-t's Ken: There is a web site that deals with the problem of deciding what glue to use to glue this to that. And in fact that is the name of the site, www.thistothat.com If you ever wanted to know how to glue say glass to metal or wood to leather or plastic to wood, this site will give you one or more recommendations. It makes for some interesting reading. Bob Sturgeon ------- Re: Hook ,Line, and..... [sherline] Posted by: "Charles Fox" cafox513x~xxgte.net Date: Sat Jul 1, 2006 7:05 am (PDT) I use CA all the time, putting models together. And I faced the same problem until one glorious day, at a model show, someone was selling a gadget developed for dentists. They obviously have to leave their containers accessible -- can't constantly cap them up and put them into a sealed jar (which I do with some variations). They also need something they can use with one hand. So Dental Ventures of America (DVA) of Corona, California developed a delivery system which consists of a tube whose contents are squeezed out by a moving back plate on a threaded bar, moved by a wheel. The other end is a series of necked down tubes leading to a small delivery nozzle. They're see-through, so you can spot exactly where the CA is. Turn the wheel a tad until it's very close to the delivery end, then squeeze that tube and put a drop wherever you want. They have a cap available, but I never use it. Instead, if the thing clogs at all, I just turn the wheel another few notches and it clears itself up. Any drips outside the nozzle dry and can be wiped off and discarded. But it is always there, ready to do its job. Wonderful system! Highly recommended, no connection with the company except I'm a fan now for five years or longer. http://www.dentalventures.com/ is their homepage, but I couldn't find the product there. However, I'm copying them this message in hopes they'll tell me how to find it and order it. I have not had such good luck with various "super glues". They seem to clog up and seize their caps while evaporating. ------- Re: Hook ,Line, and..... Posted by: "Jim Rickenbacker(3)" j3mr2x~xxborisbrooks.com Date: Sat Jul 1, 2006 8:35 am (PDT) I think the Rocket System is what you're loking for: http://tinyurl.com/hekac The Rocket System is about half way down the page. ------- Re: Hook ,Line, and..... Posted by: "Jerry G" chieftoolmakerx~xxearthlink.net Date: Sat Jul 1, 2006 10:16 am (PDT) Charles: If you want to cure your problems with "super glues", go to: www.shipmodelersdesktop.com Click on Special Tools...Click on Page 8 There you will find my solution to the clogging nozzle problem. I call it my "CA Bottle Inverter". Click on View and dig the photos and complete description in case you decide to build one of your own. Jerry G (Glickstein) ------- Re: Hook ,Line, and..... Posted by: "Chris Johnston" jchrisjx~xxadelphia.net Date: Sat Jul 1, 2006 4:45 pm (PDT) The trick with super glues is that their cure is water-catalyzed so it is usually humidity that gets to it. That explains the bottles you find that are completely solid, but it also explains the ones that are sealed tight. We've got what is probably a half-liter bottle of CA that is almost completely full, still liquid, but with the cap glued down tight. It isn't a dispenser bottle with a tip to clog but a storage bottle. Somebody obviously got some CA on the cap threads and efficiently glued the cap on tight. Chris ------- Re: Hook ,Line, and..... Posted by: "Ron Ginger" rongingerx~xxadelphia.net Date: Sat Jul 1, 2006 6:13 pm (PDT) We had a sales engineer from Loctite as a speaker at one of the New England Model Engineering Society meetings. He talked about shelf life- in their view there is no limit- as long as the product is still liquid it is fine. They were required to put an expiration date on bottles by government contract- purchasing agents could not buy a product that did not have an expiration date. He claimed the company spent a lot of time trying to convince the government they were wasting money by insisting on a date, and throwing away 'old' product, but eventually gave up and just put a date on it. So, as long as your loctite is still a liquid it is still good. Another story he told was about some guy that insisted on picking up all the half empty bottles around the shop and combining them. Loctite cures in the absence of air, so a full bottle will cure by itself. It is always shipped in bottles that are only half full. He had an expression- 'use it or loose your nuts' PR department was always afraid to use that in advertising. ron ginger ------- Re: Hook ,Line, and..... Posted by: "Chris Johnston" jchrisjx~xxadelphia.net jchrisj7734 Date: Sun Jul 2, 2006 10:55 am (PDT) When we went through our ISO-9000 certification they insisted on having expiration dates on all of our chemicals, no matter how stable they were. As long as it was barcoded (all of our chemicals get their containers barcoded when they arrive so we can keep track of them) it needed to have an expiration date. It doesn't matter is if was something like sand that is stable indefinitely... Chris ------- Cylinder Liner [LittleEngines] Posted by: "steve huck" stevehuckss396x~xxyahoo.com Date: Fri Jul 7, 2006 7:01 pm (PDT) Made one of my liners a tad to small. Is there an epoxy that I can use to "glue" the liner in or should I make another one. There is no water jacket to worry about, just a sleeve in an aluminum piece. ------- Re: Cylinder Liner Posted by: "Bill" billblackburnx~xxsympatico.ca Date: Fri Jul 7, 2006 7:55 pm (PDT) It depends on how much a tad is? If it's only a few thou (0.010 to 0.015) you could use a sleeve retaining Loctite. Anything over this clearance you could use JB Weld. Bill ------- Re: Cylinder Liner Posted by: "Donald Qualls" silent1x~xxix.netcom.com Date: Fri Jul 7, 2006 10:41 pm (PDT) If it's a combustion engine, the heat is likely to cause problems with either the Loctite product or JB Weld (or any other epoxy) and you're better off making a new sleeve. If it's steam, you can probably get away with either one (Loctite sleeve locking, as I recall, softens at around 350 F, and most epoxies can take 250 F or a bit more; few model steam engines will run the sleeve that hot). ------- Re: Cylinder Liner Posted by: "Bill" billblackburnx~xxsympatico.ca Date: Fri Jul 7, 2006 11:50 pm (PDT) 620 Retaining Compound High Temperature A high temperature (450°F), high viscosity liquid retaining compound. Provides a shear strength of over 3,800 psi on steel. Locks and secures metal cylindrical assemblies up to .015" diameter Typical Applications: Repairing valve sleeves. Retaining pins and sealing threads in steam platens, retaining valve seats. Retaining cylindrical liners. ------- Re: Cylinder Liner Posted by: "Frank Hasieber" fhasieberx~xxyahoo.co.uk Date: Sat Jul 8, 2006 2:39 pm (PDT) Another alternative is to copper plate back to size, copper electroplating is easy. Frank ------- Cylinder liner update. Posted by: "steve huck" stevehuckss396x~xxyahoo.com Date: Wed Jul 12, 2006 3:35 pm (PDT) I was too lazy to go looking for all the products so I just made a new one. All 8 are pressed in and ready to hone. Thanks to those who helped!! ------- Re: Araldite [Min_Int_Comb_Eng] Posted by: "mrehmus" editorx~xxmodelenginebuilder.com Date: Sat Dec 15, 2007 10:40 am ((PST)) When I wrote an article on using epoxy for Model Engine Builder magazine, triggered by my discovery that they now use epoxy to seal automobile radiators, I could not find an U.S. source for Araldite. So I investigated JB Weld which works similarly up to about 500 degrees F or so and can be oven-cured below 200 degrees F. The nice thing about JB Weld is you can clean up with soap and water until it sets. The bad thing about JB Weld is it is an opaque dark gray in color. You also cannot purchase it in any size larger than about 5 OZ tubes. Like most epoxies, if you warm it, it becomes more fluid and you might find it running where you don't want it. The JB Weld company is very informal and they do not have strength vs temperature curve information. ------- Re: Araldite Posted by: "Frank Hasieber" fhasieberx~xxyahoo.co.uk Date: Sat Dec 15, 2007 12:48 pm ((PST)) Mike, here are some US sources of Araldite, found in a Google search; there are possibly many others. http://www.gluguru.com/Epoxies.htm#Araldite2000 http://www.freemansupply.com/AralditeEpoxyAdhes.htm http://www.adhesivehelp.com/vantico.html Regards, Frank ------- Re: Araldite Posted by: "BillB" wabit2x~xxgmail.com Date: Sat Dec 15, 2007 2:48 pm ((PST)) Another "hardware store" epoxy, like JBWeld, that I have used with very good results is PC-7. See: http://www.pcepoxy.com/pastepoxies/pastepc7.asp Their normal retail product does not have JB Weld temperature range. They do have data sheets and larger volume packages - should one need this. "Just a satisfied customer" Regards BillB ------- Re: Araldite Posted by: "BillB" wabit2x~xxgmail.com Date: Sat Dec 15, 2007 4:43 pm ((PST)) Did it again :-( I pushed send when I did not mean to. What I didn't say below is: I have no familiarity with Araldite, but like DEVCON there are a family of products under that name if you look into commercial products. See: http://www.devcon.com/products.cfm http://www.adhesivehelp.com/vantico.html http://www.huntsman.com/advanced_materials/index.cfm?PageID=5865 Neither the Araldite consumer product, JB Weld or PC-7 are probably equal to the best problem specific product from an industrial supplier or product vendor. see: www.mcmaster.com and search for page 3288 or adhesives and I suspect there are industrial suppliers in other countries. JB Weld and PC-7 are convenient as the local hardware and for most applications works well. Regards BillB ------- Metal Epoxy for Aluminum & Sterling Silver? [taigtools] Posted by: "John Saunders" johnsaundersx~xxpetruspartners.com Date: Wed Oct 15, 2008 4:10 pm ((PDT)) I am trying to glue a cuff-link backing which is sterling silver to a piece of 6061 aluminum which I milled; and am surprised that after 24 hours, the epoxy has not set (it should set in 20 min and be rock-hard in 24 hours). This is the epoxy i'm using: http://tinyurl.com/4dpcfg. Will this epoxy not adhere to silver? (It's worked well for me with aluminum before). Should I use something else? ------- Re: Metal Epoxy for Aluminum & Sterling Silver? Posted by: "Michael Fagan" woodworker88x~xxgmail.com Date: Wed Oct 15, 2008 4:14 pm ((PDT)) Whether an epoxy product sets has nothing to do with how well it sticks to various substances, so I think your problem is elsewhere, most likely either a chemical or a mixing issue. The product you indicated seems to come in a dispenser that does both at once, so it's unlikely that you got extremely different amounts of the resin and hardener. Assuming you mixed them thoroughly, then the hardener is probably no good (it has a definite shelf life, usually 6 months or so once opened). I would start with a brand new tube of the same product and try it again. ------- Re: Metal Epoxy for Aluminum & Sterling Silver? Posted by: "kd006" kd006x~xxyahoo.com Date: Wed Oct 15, 2008 4:19 pm ((PDT)) I tend to stay away from the twin tube systems; the viscosity of the resin and hardener often cause a problem with ratio. As mentioned the non-hardening is a function of too much resin to too little hardener. Kristin ------- Re: Metal Epoxy for Aluminum & Sterling Silver? Posted by: "Will Schmit" anchornmx~xxyahoo.com Date: Wed Oct 15, 2008 4:19 pm ((PDT)) You might think about warming it. Epoxy is thermosetting. The catalyst only provides the heat. Have you thought about JB weld? ------- Re: Metal Epoxy for Aluminum & Sterling Silver? Posted by: "John Saunders" johnsaundersx~xxpetruspartners.com Date: Wed Oct 15, 2008 4:24 pm ((PDT)) No - I'll have a look next time I'm at Home Depot; I know they had JB Weld and maybe some other non-twintube epoxies. Glad to hear it's likely that, and not the silver. ------- Re: Metal Epoxy for Aluminum & Sterling Silver? Posted by: "sasbootch" eyecreatex~xxhotmail.com Date: Wed Oct 15, 2008 9:38 pm ((PDT)) What temperature were the parts (both the epoxy and the parts to be glued) at when you put the assembly together? Both Epoxies and catalized resins (like polyester "fiberglass resin") can be very temperature sensitive. If the temperature of the mixture or the parts or ambient temperature were in the 50's or below, they oftentimes will not cure -ever- :(. Sometimes the reaction will take place, but leave you with a "rubbery" final product. It is always good to provide a warm dry place to mix these types of adhesives and cure the final product. In fact most epoxies and resins require a "baking" or "post cure" to finalize the cure (to help reduce internal stresses [more so with polyester resins])and bring the finished product up to the specs provided with the material. Jeff ------- Re: Metal Epoxy for Aluminum & Sterling Silver? Posted by: "Rick Reyes" aztaigx~xxyahoo.com Date: Wed Oct 15, 2008 6:54 pm ((PDT)) Rather than using an expoxy try using a thick Cyanoacrilate. Make sure you scuff both the silver and Al sides what will be adhered. Rick ------- Re: Metal Epoxy for Aluminum & Sterling Silver? Posted by: "Shad" shendersonx~xxthegeekgroup.org Date: Thu Oct 16, 2008 5:00 am ((PDT)) Hi All. Having used "super glue" for many a project, I've found the best way to store it is in the 'fridge. Keeps it fresher longer, and helps delay the inevitable "rock-solid-tube-of-glue" that has kicked off and cured in the tube. Another thing I do to help is that I use a small eyeglasses-cleaner-type spritzing bottle filled with distilled water. One shot of that stuff and the CA sets up rock hard almost instantly. And yep, I've used super glue to secure parts for light machining. Gotta take light cuts and keep the heat under control, but it can work in situations where you simply can't get a clamp on the workpiece. Just my $.02 Shad H. ------- Re: Metal Epoxy for Aluminum & Sterling Silver? Posted by: "Don Rogers" Donx~xxCampbell-Gemstones.com Date: Thu Oct 23, 2008 10:50 pm ((PDT)) CA is not a good choice for metal to metal bonding. A sharp thunk on it will cause the bond to break. We used it for bonding gemstones to the dops for cutting. To remove the stone, just a sharp whack on the aluminum dop with a piece of metal was enough to cause the gemstone to drop off. Epoxy is a much better choice. Just make sure things are clean and then wet both pieces in the bond area with epoxy on a toothpick before joining them. A lot of failed epoxy joints are because there wasn't a good liquid bond to one surface and when it hardened up, it didn't bond well. The heat as mentioned before is a good recommendation. A 100W bulb in a reflector back about 4 inches off the epoxy will provide enough heat to kick off the epoxy. Just make sure things are clamped well as when the epoxy gets warm, it becomes a great lubricant and things slide around. Don ------- Re: Metal Epoxy for Aluminum & Sterling Silver? Posted by: "Nicholas Carter and Felice Luftschein" felicex~xxcasco.net Date: Thu Oct 23, 2008 10:53 pm ((PDT)) I forgot to reply...Felice uses E6000 glue to attach metal barrette clips to aluminum and glass components all the time for our jewelry. She scuffs up the surfaces and glues. See our homepage at www.cartertools.com/nfhome.html ------- Re: Something for the Reloader's Bench [taigtools] Posted by: "Michael Fagan" woodworker88x~xxgmail.com Date: Wed Feb 18, 2009 9:07 pm ((PST)) On Feb 18, 2009, Dean Williams wrote: > I always seem to have a bunch of lathe projects going at any given > time. Once in a while I sit down and finish something in one day! > The shooting crowd may like this. Maybe some of the other folks too. > One of those things you can buy for $20 or make in half a day. > Have a look if you'd like. > http://tinyurl.com/bmjsq2 As usual, impeccable work, Dean. One comment-you show in one image using Loctite to hold the cap onto the end of the tube. However, the Loctite shown in the image is 242 threadlocker, not one of the green retaining compounds such as 609 usually used for this purpose. Do you find that the threadlocker works for this sort of stuff, or was it a mistake? Michael ------- Re: Something for the Reloader's Bench Posted by: "Dean Williams" deanofidx~xxyahoo.com Date: Wed Feb 18, 2009 9:47 pm ((PST)) Thanks Michael; I'm not really up on the all the different types of Loctite. I've used the 242 for anything I've needed to be "stuck" together for many years, but I use it more like a glue, and don't expect too much from it. If it's something that needs to stay forever, I use a press fit or silver solder. As far as that little knob goes, you can't get it off the tube with your fingers. I know that much. :) I'll have to look into the 609 that you mention. It could be that I need some and don't know it! Thanks for bringing it up. Dean ------- Re: Something for the Reloader's Bench Posted by: "Michael Fagan" woodworker88x~xxgmail.com Date: Wed Feb 18, 2009 10:09 pm ((PST)) Yeah, the 242 will work okay, but the 609 will work better. They're colloquially called "green Loctite" and are known as retaining compounds (vs 242 which is a threadlocker). 5ml will last you a long time. I use them to augment press fits and interchangeably with silver solder, particularly on heat-sensitive parts. For example, when I need to attach a small (32DP, 3mm bore) pinion gear to a motor shaft, I usually use a press fit combined with 609 loctite. They do come in a variety of different viscosities depending on the clearance in the parts, from a water-thin version for press fits to a almost gel-like consistency which will fill gaps up to 0.005". I usually go for a light press fit (so I don't risk distorting anything) and one of the thinner varieties. Michael ------- My first Stirling [barstockengines] Posted by: "Les V" rocketcaverx~xxyahoo.com Date: Thu Feb 19, 2009 2:49 pm ((PST)) I need a little advice fellows. My glue keeps letting loose of the clear plastic of the displacer cylinder, thus breaking my seal. I have tried high temp silicone gasket material (Permatex Red), regular silicone calk, Plumbers Goop, and rubber cement. All hold for a while, but soon let go. I tried roughing up the plastic a bit but it didn't help. Ideas? Les ------- Re: My first Stirling Posted by: "Gary R.Coldiron" jackie133x~xxverizon.net Date: Thu Feb 19, 2009 4:57 pm ((PST)) I'm in the middle of that same project and I am using J-B KwiK. So far it seems to work well. Good luck, Gary ------- Re: My first Stirling-glue Posted by: "Raymond King" raymondkingx~xxo2.co.uk Date: Thu Feb 19, 2009 4:42 pm ((PST)) Les: Try 2pack polyurethane boat varnish (clear). If the gap is small you should be able to run around with a little artist's paint bush. I find this sticks quite well to most plastics. If I remember, !! the hardener is Toluene di-isocyanate which digs into plastics other than polythene. Good luck ------- Re: My first Stirling Posted by: "Henry Sutherland" bunillidh2002x~xxyahoo.co.uk Date: Fri Feb 20, 2009 12:24 pm ((PST)) Les: Try "Blue Hylomar",it's a gasket sealant and is very effective. Available from motor factors. I have used it for sealing various things including steam gaskets and it works well. I have been told that "Rolls Royce" uses it on gaskets so it must be good. Henry ------- Re: My first Stirling Posted by: "Rob" Dragondarkx~xxSprintmail.com Date: Fri Feb 20, 2009 1:29 pm ((PST)) Henry and Les, Hylomar should be available from most Harley Dealers as we used it on most engines up until the twin cam was released. Rob ------- Re: My First Stirling Posted by: "firearms_engravingx~xxmac.com" Date: Sat Feb 21, 2009 1:44 pm ((PST)) Since this is an LTD Stirling, there is almost no pressure involved in the operation and the glues that you've tried are just incompatible with the aluminum to plastic bond. This generally happens because the adhesive isn't flexible enough for the movement of contraction/expansion differences between the two unlike materials. Try Shoo Goo (a tennis shoe repair product I use to repair my neoprene waders) or a straight silicon caulk as a sealer/adhesive. Make sure that the aluminum hot and cold plates are clean, free of oil, and "roughed up" in the area to be glued with 120 grit paper. When I joined my plates to a "Plexiglas" ring on the displacer side, that's what I did and they haven't failed yet. Good luck! John Munds Park, AZ ------- Date: Fri, 29 Jan 2010 16:32:41 -0800 (PST) From: Thomas Conroy Subject: Re: [OldTools] Corn Glue O Galoots: Matthew Groves says: "I'm thinking for my next glue-up I'll just boil a few ears and eat them over my mortice and tenons. Should hold for 100 years I'd bet. I know that it's a has a great "plate ceramic" to "plate ceramic" bond, but I'm unsure about wood to wood." What you will get is a form of paste, an adhesive that is even better for bookbinders than hot glue. Paste is starch boiled until the granules rupture and the curly tangled molecules wave their long tendrils all over the place like jellyfish, grabbing on to whatever they can. Paste can be made from many starch sources (as: rice starch paste, wheat starch paste, cornstarch paste); it can also be made from grain flours which have not been broken down (as: wheat flour paste containing both starch and glutin, potato flour paste, etc.). Each starch source has slightly different working properties, and each whole grain paste has working properties slightly different from its purified starch. Corn starch paste is very transparent and pale so it is liked by many paper conservators, though binders prefer wheat starch or wheat flour which are somewhat more flexible (this is a gross simplification, but you get the idea). I have never used whole corn starch or corn flour starch, so I can't predict the specific variations in properties. In general, though, pastes have a much higher water content than hot glue or PVA (white glue), a much longer open time since they dry entirely by evaporation, and very little tack until they are fully dry. They are highly reversible, and have a track record for permanence that is as long as hot glue's and even better. Because of the high water content pastes will have absolutely no gap-filling properties, and may cause the joint to warp open if clamps are removed before the moisture content of the wood near the bond has evened out with the rest of the wood. Because of the long open time, a bookbinder can put down and pull apart the pieces several times, a great boon. I'm inclined to think, though, that a paste used in woodworking would be very inconvenient to use, since it might well take days for the moisture to work its way away from the joint, and the clamps would have to be kept on for the full time. With binding, the moisture works its way through the large side of the paper, but wood would trap it in place for longer. In making starch or flour paste you mix a thin dispersion (I like 6 parts water to 1 part flour or starch by volume), bring it to a boil stirring constantly. A bit before the mixture boils, it will go from opaque to translucent. The change in translucency shows that the starch granules have started to rupture into paste jellyfish. When the mixture boils (big bubbles) turn down the heat and hold it at a slow simmer for ten minutes to make sure that a high proportion of the granules have been ruptured. Strain into a dish and allow to cool. To clean cookware etc. don't scrub out immediately; allow the pots to soak in water for a few hours and the residue will separate easily from the pot. There are lots of variant recipes, and lots of additives, but this is about the simplest. Left in the refrigerator, paste should keep fresh for about two weeks before spoiling. When it spoils it gets fuzzy dots and smells like old gym socks; use it fresh and throw it away after a week or so. In general I wouldn't choose any form of paste for woodworking; I think it would be more fuss and time than it would be worth, and it would have no advantages over hot glue (**for woodworking**) and some disadvantages. An exception would be in setting the leather tops of desks, or other leather-and-wood applications, where it would make the work far easier than modern adhesive provided the cabinetmaker knew the quirks of leather- and-paste (for instance, you would want to counterwarp the way you do for veneer, and for the same reason: wet leather pulls a lot, and you must counter the pull to avoid warp). But by all means boil up some corn and see how it works; at the very least you will have a permanent and reversable adhesive that won't kill you with exudations and where the supply wont't disappear due to a manufacturer's whims. I haven't tried it, and it may suit your needs down to the ground. Tom Conroy Berkeley ------- Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2010 12:19:59 -0700 From: James Thompson Subject: Re: [OldTools] Unknown Woodie On Aug 22, 2010, Anthony Seo wrote: >> Tony (listening to the rain and pondering how one get's more that >>.75 worth of use out of a $5.00 bottle of Gorilla Glue) On Aug 22, 2010, Spike Cornelius wrote: > One word- Bloxygen. I'd like to mention that I don't see any benefit to using Gorilla Glue over other waterproof glues. It doesn't stick wood together better than other waterproof glues. It is messy as hell, and if you get any on your hands, well, you know what happens. You have to use something abrasive to get it off. Then comes the price.... Way too expensive, and that is followed by the very short shelf life before you have to toss it out. Moisture in the air cures the stuff in the bottle. They will never get another penny from me. That stuff comes from the land of unintended consequences. Jim Thompson, the old Millrat in Riverside, CA. ------- Note to file: The next conversation started about turning metal spacers out of thin stock. One suggestion was to hold the material to a (glue) chuck or faceplate with super glue. If you wish to see that original conversation, see the "Turning Tips for Metal" file starting Feb 6, 2011. ------- Re: How do I make a spacer ring? [sherline] Posted by: "a3sigma" dcclark111x~xxcomcast.net Date: Tue Feb 8, 2011 4:32 am ((PST)) If I may jump in here: all cyanoacrylate glue is catalyzed by water. See: http://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-cyanoacrylate-glue.htm among many other sources. Quoting from the above: "The main ingredient in super glue is called cyanoacrylate. If cyanoacrylate glue is placed on a perfectly dry surface or certain plastics, the cyanoacrylate cannot form a bond with the surface. But if there is even the slightest amount of water present, including moisture from the air, the molecules of the glue have a chemical reaction and form into tight chains between the two surfaces being bonded. This reaction happens within seconds of the water and cyanoacrylate making contact." and "Some users of cyanoacrylate glue may become frustrated by the occasional lack of bonding between materials. This may be caused by a lack of moisture or the non-porous nature of the materials. Applying a thin layer of water or even breathing on the material may create enough moisture for a stronger bonding reaction." Here's another good article: http://www.ipmsstockholm.org/magazine/2004/10/stuff_eng_tech_ca_glue.htm David Clark in Southern Maryland, USA ------- Super Glue [sherline] Posted by: "a3sigma" dcclark111x~xxcomcast.net Date: Tue Feb 8, 2011 5:17 am ((PST)) In case anyone stopped reading the thread on making spacers, I thought I should start this one. Cyanoacylate glue is wonderful stuff, but it helps to understand a bit about how and why it does what it does and doesn't. Here's a pretty good, short and comprehensive article: http://www.ipmsstockholm.org/magazine/2004/10/stuff_eng_tech_ca_glue.htm Of particular interest are the discussions of bond thickness, water catalysis, and using baking soda to build up fillings. Alcohol as well as water is an accelerator. I've had good success bonding metals by scrubbing both parts with alcohol and then immediately applying the glue. My surmise is that besides removing dirt and oils from the bond surfaces, a tiny residue of alcohol helps the cure. Also, as the alcohol evaporates, it cools the surfaces which would cause atmospheric water vapor to condense on them which would also help. For this application, rubbing alcohol which is typically 30 to 50 percent water might be ideal. David Clark in Southern Maryland, USA ------- Cyanoacrylate Glue Posted by: "Tom & Judy Bank" trbank1x~xxverizon.net Date: Tue Feb 8, 2011 7:36 pm ((PST)) A word on the history of cyanoacrylate glue: The stuff was originally invented, or discovered, when there was a need for a strong glue that would cure under water. The bright chemist who came up with the cyanoacrylate answer thought of -- or had experience with boat and ship owners problems trying to remove barnacles. All he had to do was get some barnacles and figure out the chemical composition of the adhesive those nasty little critters use to bond themselves to anything that ventures into the sea. If you want a really strong wood glue, try Elmer's white glue, apply it, and then add a drop of cyanoacrylate glue. The cyanoacrylate will disperse into the white glue and harden almost instantly. It makes one tough bond! Regards, Tom Bank ------- Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2011 21:35:50 -0500 From: Bill Taggart Subject: Re: [OldTools] Adhesive for veneering an aluminum tube? On 2/26/2011, Roger Van Maren wrote: > Esteemed Ones, > I've got a project in which I need to wrap a 2-1/4" diameter 9" long > aluminum tube in walnut veneer. I was thinking that some type of epoxy > would be the adhesive of choice. Would anyone have experience in this > area and have a recommendation they would like to make as to type or > source? My veneer is a pre-made two ply veneer from Woodcraft. If > there's a better veneer to use I'd be open to switching. If you're going the epoxy route, the two big names in epoxy in the boatbuilding world are West and System 3. You can get West at a West Marine store or online at http://www.westmarine.com And here is System 3's website: http://www.systemthree.com/ System 3 provides a free downloadable book that is actually quite good, explaining how epoxy works and how to use it and various additives to make it do different things. It is called, appropriately enough, "The Epoxy Book," and is available at: http://www.systemthree.com/reslibrary/literature/The_Epoxy_Book.pdf Bill T. ------- Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2011 09:50:52 -0500 From: Charlie Driggs Subject: Re: [OldTools] Adhesive for veneering an aluminum tube? My initial thought on reading this was that epoxy might work, but there are a few other things I considered too. 1) Is it being used indoors or outdoors? If outdoors, the thermal expansion of aluminum may be problem vs. epoxy and a thin veneer. 2) You would not want a quick setting epoxy. Getting that piece of veneer wrapped and aligned, then clamped down tightly just might take a while, and if the epoxy has already set up, your project just became much harder. 3) In concept, what you are making is a large version of a wooden pen barrel, as commonly done in making pens. Do you have to use veneer? So, maybe a better way is to figure out how to bore a 3"x3"x12" piece of walnut to accept the tube, glue it with cyanoacrylate, and turn the outside to the desired diameter. No, that doesn't sound simple, but it might be easier than wrestling with a two-piece veneer and trying to clamp it in place before the glue sets - and not have lumps in the veneer because you couldn't wrap it tight enough and hold it there while the glue set up. Which leads me to 4) If using the veneer approach, perhaps the most difficult issue is what clamping method you use to get it tightly wrapped and smooth. Other than those thoughts, this sounds like a simple project. I do think that perhaps a cross-banded veneer approach might address the the thermal expansion issue if that is an issue, but getting the first layer down and secure with a radius that small cries out for something other than the poplar underlay I've used on curved pieces. More likely than not, poplar will split quite badly, and quickly. Been there, done that. Pick something that is flexible and stays together, as walnut veneer can be a bit brittle too even when using flattening solution to stabilize it. Those are my thoughts, hope they help. Charlie Driggs ------- Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2011 09:18:11 -0800 From: scott grandstaff Subject: Re: [OldTools] Adhesive for veneering an aluminum tube? Its going to be pretty tough I'd guess. 2 1/2" is a pretty tight radius. Then you have clamping. I think I would try just single veneer and steam or soak it in warm water until I could bend it gently and ease it into a tight enough radius. I would expect to break a couple pieces trying to get there. Then I think I'd try regular polyvinyl glue. Not usually the best choice for aluminum but if it's clean, it should work and it'll go with the wet veneer. I'd cover the cylinder and let it get good n tacky. Clamping should be an adventure. I suppose rubber bands is what I'd try. Maybe flexible plastic pads and rubber bands. yours Scott Scott Grandstaff Box 409 Happy Camp, Ca 96039 http://www.snowcrest.net/kitty/sgrandstaff/ http://www.snowcrest.net/kitty/hpages/index.html ------- Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2011 16:27:34 -0500 From: Bill Taggart Subject: Re: [OldTools] Adhesive for veneering an aluminum tube? On 2/27/2011, scott grandstaff wrote: > Clamping should be an adventure. I suppose rubber bands is what I'd > try. Maybe flexible plastic pads and rubber bands. Bicycle inner tube. Slice it open. Spiral it all the way around, tightly. Will put a huge amount of pressure on it. Bill T. ------- Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2011 17:11:41 -0500 From: Ed Minch Subject: Re: [OldTools] Adhesive for veneering an aluminum tube? I am liking Scott's idea of wetting the veneer and wrapping around the tube til it dries. Then I would fit it so it is a tight fit around the tube. Then I would use a thin epoxy and wrap with Bill's innertube. I would make it 2-3 inches too long so I could cut off the ends and make it just right. Remember that epoxy goes through a "green" stage where it has chemically kicked off, but it is still soft and this is a great time to take off the clamping and trim what you need to with a very sharp chisel. I might then at the end apply a very thin coat of epoxy (maybe thinned with a little acetone) as a finish - this will harden the surface and make it more water repellant/resistant. Ed Minch ------- Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2011 11:50:16 -0600 From: Mike Siemsen Subject: Re: [OldTools] Adhesive for veneering an aluminum tube? I will re-iterate the use of double face carpet tape. I don't know how the two ply veneer is made but if it is cross grained I would recommend using paper or foil backed veneer in stead, anything that wants to roll up easily. This is a clean easy way to do this, no clamps, perfect seam, no mess, done in minutes. Apply the tape the long way (2" wide strips), leave the veneer an inch wider than it needs to be and also longer, remove the backing strips from all the rows of tape exposing the sticky suface, except for the last one. Roll the veneer around the tube. Slice through the upper and lower layers of the veneers at the overlap with a sharp knife, remove the lower layer of veneer, remove the backer from the upper layer and stick in place for a perfect seam, no clean up. I am assuming the grain runs the length of the tube. If it is across the lengths of the tube use regular veneer and get it good and wet, roll it up around the tube and let it dry, then use that as described above. If you really don't trust the tape 100 percent (I would) then just use the above method without double stick tape at the seam (maybe 1/2" each side of the seam) work your epoxy under the seam and tightly wrap the whole thing in masking tape or saran wrap until the glue dries. Mike ------- Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2011 11:16:02 -0800 From: Roger Van Maren Subject: Re: [OldTools] Adhesive for veneering an aluminum tube? Just to add a bit of information: This is for the fore end of an AR-10 type rifle I'm currently building. Yes, one of those evil black guns. (This one might even have "that shoulder thing that goes up", if someone could explain to me what that is.) These are usually made of various combinations of black plastic, steel and aluminum alloys and I being the way I am, just couldn't stand to see a rifle without walnut furniture so this one will have a walnut stock, pistol grip and fore end, hence the veneering question. There's just not much room to go with anything much thicker or I would just turn a cylinder on the lathe. At 2-1/4" diameter I was thinking the cross banding would help prevent splitting of the walnut. I am able to dry wrap the veneer around the tube without any problems so I don't foresee any problems in that area. I was thinking epoxy because I know it bonds well to metal. I don't know why I didn't think of the double sided tape route. Carpet tape would be good but how do I know I'm getting "good stuff". Mike, Do you have a brand or source you can recommend? I'd hate to have this de-laminate after I get all the effort into it. I've used PSA type adhesives in the past in industrial applications. They can be very tenacious indeed and much less messy than wet glues. I seem to recall seeing parts of the Space Shuttle being attached with peal and stick adhesives. I spent about an hour Googling them this morning. I'm convinced the product I need is out there from performance standpoint but it seems my problem may be finding what I need without buying a $1200 case of tape. It seems all the "high performance" products are marketed to the production crowd. I need to think up a hobbyist or other low volume application where I can source a few 8"X10" sheets of this stuff. I don't quite trust the material I found marketed to the scrap booking crowd for this job. Any suggestions? Thanks, Roger ------- Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2011 15:04:14 -0600 From: Mike Siemsen Subject: Re: [OldTools] Adhesive for veneering an aluminum tube? I would think something by Manco or 3M would be fine. You will want to be careful in the finishing process as solvents in the finish can dissolve the glue bond. I have done similar projects with contact adhesive where the problem with solvents dissolving the bond is same. Light initial coats of finish work, or use a finish that doesn't effect the bond. I use carpet tape to attach sandpaper for sharpening as well. Once finished I doubt the rifle will be subjected to great extremes of heat or moisture. You can also use the carpet tape in the center and epoxy the edges down. You don't really need 8 x 10 pieces as you can easily put down parallel rows of tape to cover the veneer. Good luck, Mike ------- Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2011 13:40:41 -0800 From: Spike Cornelius Subject: Re: [OldTools] Adhesive for veneering an aluminum tube? What about this: http://www.tapeease.com/psa_veneer_sheets.htm Spike Cornelius ------- Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2011 23:18:16 -0700 From: Don Schwartz Subject: Re: [OldTools] Adhesive for veneering an aluminum tube? Inner tube strips are great for clamping of irregular objects, but I suspect you'd prefer wraps of surgical tubing for this job. It's thin, strong and very flexible. Any medical supply store should have it in a variety of sizes, by the foot. Another alternative might be that non-adhesive clear wrapping tape that only sticks to itself. Strong, cheap, and you wouldn't have to clamp or tie it like you would with inner tube. And you can see through it! Don ------- NOTE TO FILE: There is a discussion here in the file "Gears General" starting Thu Apr 14, 2011 called "Atlas Gear Repair ???". During that thread, there are some very practical tips on casting parts using a metal filled epoxy, including some homemade vibration methods to remove air in the epoxy before it is applied. Information there would be helpful in any situation needing more than a tiny amount of epoxy. ------- NOTE TO FILE: The following conversation about auto body filler has some useful information about alternative uses for this product, as well as alternative products including epoxy and other resins. ------- alternative use for car body filler [shopbuilttools] Posted by: "mason" masonx~xxcoolaccess.net Date: Tue Apr 26, 2011 6:21 am ((PDT)) I see these hot rod shows on tv where they use gobs of modern body filler to hide large problems while building fantastic looking cars. Every time I see this I think to myself that there must be lots of other uses for the stuff. Back in the 60's if you got it too thick it would crack over time. Now it's a much different mixture. I know this may not be directly related to building shop built tools but we are all not above taking advantage of a new construction item. Just how far can we push its use? Ideas? Links? ------- Re: alternative use for car body filler Posted by: "gdnichols" gdnicholsx~xxaol.com Date: Tue Apr 26, 2011 7:36 am ((PDT)) One great use of car body filler is to tame the edges of plywood and particle board that will be painted. It dries really hard, but is easy to sand and paint. ------- Re: alternative use for car body filler Posted by: "Daniel Fox" daniel_foxx~xxhotmail.com Date: Tue Apr 26, 2011 8:54 am ((PDT)) Hmm; never thought of that. I use plain ol' drywall mud for that purpose, but filler would be better for filling the actual voids. I use it for making mold patterns for my AL foundry. It does the same thing for patterns that it does for cars, i.e. fill in small imperfections and sand out really nicely. Also inside corner fillets. Dan Fox ------- Re: alternative use for car body filler Posted by: "mason perkins" masonx~xxcoolaccess.net Date: Tue Apr 26, 2011 9:17 am ((PDT)) For years I have been using a product that I have only found in the Home Depot paint department. MH READY PATCH. It's a spackling and patching compound. Dap brand does not sand well but this does. Best way to describe it is that it sands about like dry wall mud, is much harder, shrinks a little and works well on unpainted or painted wood. The can has orange lettering on a black background and comes in quart cans. I would think it should work on plywood edges as well as knot holes in low grade plywood. I don't believe that it has any flexible ability. I have used a lot of it patching up old furniture that was to be painted. mason ------- Re: alternative use for car body filler Posted by: "Alan Millar" grunthos503x~xxyahoo.com Date: Tue Apr 26, 2011 10:14 am ((PDT)) Hmm, good idea. Actually, I was just thinking of something for this the other day. I have a badly-behaved cat that likes to scratch up the bedroom door frame. (The water squirt bottle works great when I catch her in the act, but the door frame is showing me that we aren't always catching her :-) Instead of just spackling it, perhaps I will try bondo to see if it will be more resistant to repeat damage from the cat claws. Alan ------- Re: alternative use for car body filler Posted by: "Price, Ken" ken.pricex~xxeducation.tas.gov.au Date: Tue Apr 26, 2011 3:32 pm ((PDT)) I made a cover for the exposed gear train on my old metal lathe. To cover the three main gears it needed to be a shallow triangular pan shape with rounded corners. Made the front and sides with ply, then used cardboard to form the inside and outside of the corners and cast inside the end pattern with some old out-of date polyester car body filler. I had a couple of protruding screws to give the filler something more to bond to. It's very solid, doesn't rattle and deadens the gear noise. It is drillable and even theadable for lightweight brackets etc ken ------- Re: alternative use for car body filler Posted by: "KENNETH T" papatait45x~xxyahoo.com Date: Wed Apr 27, 2011 7:53 am ((PDT)) Many years ago I worked in a precast plant. We made concrete pieces for buildings: window sills, lentils, moldings, copings, and any special pieces for any transformation from an old building to the new construction. We made plugs out of wood and Styrofoam then we made a fiberglass mold from the plugs. When the molds were pulled off the plugs, we used auto body filler to smooth out the rough spots and any air holes that were formed in the mold. Papa Tait Seekonk,Ma. -------- Re: alternative use for car body filler Posted by: "Jack H" qphysicsx~xxyahoo.com Date: Thu Apr 28, 2011 12:54 am ((PDT)) I use it to make sanding profiled edges easier. Find a good, smooth spot on the edge of the piece you're working on, lay down a piece of cellophane wrap, then press the bondo onto it. It makes a perfect copy of the shape of the profile, even double ogees and such. Once the bondo has hardened, pull it off and starting at either top or bottom, apply a piece of self- adhesive sandpaper...be sure to get the paper to follow the curves accurately...and you've got a profile sander that exactly matches whatever you routed on the edge. ------- Re: alternative use for car body filler Posted by: "redsoxfanz4" redsoxfanz4x~xxyahoo.com Date: Thu Apr 28, 2011 12:54 am ((PDT)) This is more similar to a car repair, but if you need a new appliance, go to the scratch and dent room. I bought a fridge for 75% off due to a tear in the side put by a handler. Bondo was my friend! ------- alternative uses for auto body fillers Posted by: "David G. LeVine" dlevinex~xxspeakeasy.net Date: Thu Apr 28, 2011 10:18 pm ((PDT)) Another neat product is "spot putty", a filler designed for small imperfections. Squeegee it in and sand most of it off. The results are surprisingly good. Also, don't forget the "cheese grater" files, wait for the Bondo to get firm (not hard) and you can get the shapes close to right without hours of sanding. It is one of those "Neat" ideas that every body man seems to use. Dave 8{) ------- Re: alternative uses for auto body fillers Posted by: "David G. LeVine" dlevinex~xxspeakeasy.net Date: Fri Apr 29, 2011 12:11 pm ((PDT)) On 04/29/2011, Daniel Fox wrote: > is that what I call "lacquer putty"? For filling in pores and pinholes > in a paint job? Dark red stuff? Yup, that is the stuff. Dave 8{) ------- Re: alternative uses for auto body fillers Posted by: "McKee, Don {Quaker}" donmckeex~xxtheescogroup.com Date: Fri Apr 29, 2011 7:26 am ((PDT)) If you don't already know, there are also metal filled body fillers. The metal filled body filler is used where more strength is required. If you try this and haven't used it before, start working it to final shape right after is sets. That stuff can be a real bear to work on if you leave it set too long, seems like it just keeps getting harder. If you work on plastic models, the two part glazing compound works just like bondo on a full sized car. Mix it up, apply it and wait for it to harden just like bondo, no more waiting for hours for the filler putty to dry. Don ------- Re: Auto-Body Fillers Posted by: "Rick Shaffer" rickshafx~xxyahoo.com Date: Mon May 2, 2011 4:28 pm ((PDT)) This might be a bit of a re-run, because I haven't had the time to read all the posts in this thread. I teach high-school chemistry, and I had one of my "gear-head" students do a report on auto-body filler last year. Here's a recap of what he learned about this stuff, along with some of what I've learned over the years: 1. Auto-body fillers are based on polyester resin, with a filler built into the stuff. The hardener causes a chemical reaction that, as you might imagine, hardens the resin. The more hardener you put in, the faster the resin hardens. I've also experienced resin hardening so fast that it gets really HOT and cracks. So go easy on the hardener. 2. I only use auto-body filler that's filled with glass fibers, because it's stronger and doesn't crack. 3. Epoxy-resin fillers, such as those sold by West Systems are stronger and more durable than auto-body fillers, but also much more expensive. (The West Systems stuff is really a thick cement.) To make a filler, you must buy the glass fibers and mix them into the cement. 4. Since the chemical reaction that sets the resin is exothermic (means it puts out heat along with setting the resin), using auto-body fillers to fill a large cavity can result in a reaction so hot that either a fire or cracking can result. If you must fill a cavity, do it in layers and ensure that each layer has a rough surface to which the next layer can adhere. 5. Speaking of filling cavities, note that epoxy putty is excellent for this application, and is radically stronger than polyester fillers. I once needed to glue together a large concrete casting that was one of the legs of a picnic table in a park where I played frisbee golf. I used Duro Epox-E cement. This was in 1981. I visited the park last year, and the thing was still together. Another member of my frisbee club was an auto-body repairman. He used Bondo to repair two other picnic tables. They were nowhere to be found. I asked a current user of the frisbee-golf course what had happened to them, and she replied that they had all broken and been taken to the dump. There's a lesson here.... Best Regards, Rick Shaffer Cottonwood, AZ ------- Re: Auto-Body Fillers Posted by: "Levi Pearson" levipearsonx~xxgmail.com Date: Tue May 3, 2011 12:12 am ((PDT)) Epoxy is what they use to make solid surface countertops, including cultured stone (real rock chips and dust in an epoxy matrix). It's got much better adhesion to a much wider range of materials than polyester or vinyl ester. Vinyl ester is generally better in most regards than polyester, and it's cheaper than epoxy, so it might be worth looking into if you want to make something out of fiberglass or mix your own filler material for repairs. Polyester and vinyl ester shrink a great deal when they cure, as well, while epoxy shrinks less. Of course, polyester and epoxy are really families of chemical compounds that furthermore can be processed and mixed with additives in different ways, and any product you can buy off the shelf probably has some trade secrets to its formulation. So, you probably have to have taken advanced polymer chemistry studies to really understand all this stuff. Body filler is not really meant to do what people try to make it do these days, even within the realm of auto body repair. It was meant as a replacement for body lead, which the body man would use as a finish after doing a lot of metal bumping to get dents as small as feasible. It's only supposed to be applied a few mils thick, in which case you don't have a lot of issue with shrinking and cracking due to too-thick applications that can't properly cure in a short time frame. The fiberglass-reinforced stuff is for slightly thicker areas, such as welded seams where there's been heat distortion of the metal. One thing you must *never* do when making repairs on metal with any kind of body filler is leave any portion of the filler exposed, such as on the back side of a rust hole. The primary filler in polyester body filler is talc, which is great at absorbing and holding on to moisture. If you repair a rust hole with bondo straight over metal, and you leave the back of the hole exposed to the air, it will pull moisture from the air and rust away the panel beneath the talc-laden plastic! Some fiberglass- reinforced fillers and metal-filled fillers are supposed to be water/rust proof, but the MSDS sheets I pulled for them still showed about 1/3 talc content, so I'm not sure how that's supposed to work. Maybe there's some trick with the resin? Or maybe the waterproof claim is just marketing baloney? I don't know. I wouldn't chance it if I needed the repair to last. So, if you want to repair with bondo and keep it repaired, what do you do? Paint over the bondo with a waterproof sealer. Epoxy primer is a common choice for this, but some of them appear to have talc content as well, probably mostly the ones that try to have some build potential as well as functioning as a primer/sealer. A rust-encapsulating paint like POR-15 or Masterseries would probably be good on the other side of a bondo-patched hole. Really, you shouldn't patch a hole like that. If you can't or don't want to weld, they've got high strength body panel adhesives to glue on patch metal that would give you a much better repair substrate than fiberglass-reinforced bondo. Anyway, if you want to mess around with composite materials or just pure epoxy (it makes a nice clear surface coat, it's what they use for the super thick, shiny coatings on restaurant tables) you should check out the web stores of US Composites and TAP Plastics. If you live in CA or OR, there may even be a TAP Plastics store near you. They both carry a multitude of resins, reinforcing cloth, and filler materials for reasonable prices. Much cheaper than the bondo-branded stuff at the home improvement or auto parts stores, and much higher quality too. And finally, a cool application of epoxy resin that I read about that's actually related to shop built tools: Making heavy-duty machine castings out of epoxy-matrix stone composite, with dead-flat epoxy machining surfaces. This was on a DIY CNC forum, where people wanted to build precise metal-working machines at home without the trouble of building an iron foundry and doing cast iron pieces and then hand-scraping them. Mass is very important to keeping these machines rigid, so they mix rock aggregate with epoxy to make extremely stable and durable bases and structural pieces for their machines, and poured pure epoxy for very flat surfaces. Some use this as filler for hollow structures in existing machines to add mass and deadening. ------- Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2011 02:34:27 +0000 From: zacharydillingerx~xxgmail.com Subject: Re: [OldTools] glue leather to wood > I'm gluing thick leather to the face of a wood vise, don't want it to > turn hard as a rock - am I right in thinking contact cement is the way > to go? Joe: When I glued the leather to my leg vise, I had pretty good luck with liquid hide glue. Stuck nice and tight with no adverse hardening of the leather. Zach ------- Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2011 23:26:17 -0500 From: Robert Hutchins Subject: Re: [OldTools] glue leather to wood Check out this site? http://www.thistothat.com/cgi-bin/glue.cgi?lang=en&this=Leather&that=Wood You tell it what you want to glue and it tells you choices for doing so. ------- Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2011 08:54:14 -0400 From: Ken Shepard Subject: Re: [OldTools] glue leather to wood Joe: Liquid hide glue works for me. It doesn't take much - just enough to hold the leather in place. When you want to replace the leather, just apply a little heat and the glue releases. Ken Shepard ------- Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2011 14:50:37 -0700 (PDT) From: Thomas Conroy Subject: [OldTools] Re:glue leather to wood Hi, Joe. Thick leather won't turn rock-hard from glue unless you really saturate it. That isn't likely with thick leather unless the leather is very old (i.e. deteriorated, though maybe not showing it, and many decades old) or put under very high pressure. I'd suggest a thin even layer of white, yellow, or "hide" glue; glue leather, put in place, put cardboard between the pieces of leather, close the vise enough to hold things flat but no further (i.e. no excess pressure). The cardboard will keep the jaws from sticking together if you got a bit of glue in the wrong place and it will help to wick the moisture out of the leather. Let it dry overnight. Contact cement would probably be overkill: trickier to get in place, hard to get off when it eventually needs to come off, and unnecessary strength for the purpose. Tom Conroy ------- Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2011 05:57:11 -0700 From: Joe Subject: [OldTools] Re: glue leather to wood Project done. I went with contact glue, the kind in a small can that you brush on both pieces. I figured there were enough people saying yes to go with it. It worked great. No slippage like with yellow glue -- I put it where it needed to be and it stuck, I put the leather on both faces and closed the vice with a board in the middle and it was done. Half an hour later I did the other two cheeks. Thanks for the tips. Joe M. ------- Re: loctite and Sherline [sherline] Posted by: "a3sigma" dcclark111x~xxcomcast.net Date: Wed Nov 9, 2011 8:15 am ((PST)) "Steve" wrote: > Hi Guys. Has anyone lived without using loctite? Though I did use this in my machinist days especially for surface grinding to hold jobs via grinding but is it useful for home machining? How useful is it and any suitable solvent? I remember it binds so well that one has to be extra careful not to get in contact with one's fingers! Steve-S'pore < Steve, Loctite makes a range of products for various applications. See loctite.com I have phoned their customer support in both amateur and professional contexts and found them extremely helpful. On the Sherlines, the only place I use Loctite is on the leadscrew preload nuts. See http://www.sherline.com/6700inst.htm For that I use Loctite 620. It releases with moderate heat, and cleans up with acetone. David Clark in Southern Maryland, USA ------- NOTE TO FILE: I realize the following conversation about hide glue may be a bit off topic for a metalworking site, but even metalworkers have jigs and shelves and whatever made from wood in their workshops, don't they? Learned some stuff myself. Good to know. ------- Date: Tue, 21 Feb 2012 15:53:26 -0500 From: Ed Minch Subject: [OldTools] Hide Glue GG On the topic of instruments: Anybody know about this glue for musical instruments? There is a video giving the basics of hide glue that I found very informative. http://www.oldbrownglue.com/index.html Ed Minch ------- Date: Tue, 21 Feb 2012 15:44:29 -0600 From: Robert Young Subject: RE: [OldTools] Hide Glue My understanding is it will very, very much depend on what part of the instrument you intend to apply the glue. Patrick is usually pretty good at answering his emails so piddle around on his site and find his "ask a question" email link. The more details you can give him the better his answer will be. Rob Young ------- Date: Tue, 21 Feb 2012 17:01:10 -0800 From: "Cliff Rohrabacher, Esq." Subject: Re: [OldTools] Hide Glue Isn't that just liquid hide glue? liquid hide glue is a compromise between strength and ease of use This guy doesn't like 'em http://www.frets.com/fretspages/luthier/Data/Materials/hideglue.html ------- Date: Tue, 21 Feb 2012 16:23:51 -0800 (PST) From: gary may Subject: Re: [OldTools] Hide Glue Hi Cliff-- I read this 'fretspage' some years back and didn't see then, or now, where he says he "doesn't like 'em." I've been going with what he *does* say, which is that they're different in some ways than the homebrew. IME, the glue holds. And comes apart when you want it to. works for me gam in OlyWA/USA ------- Date: Tue, 21 Feb 2012 22:17:51 -0800 From: "Cliff Rohrabacher, Esq." Subject: Re: [OldTools] Hide Glue He says: "Commercial liquid hide glues have gel suppressants & remain liquid at room temperature. They are not quite as useful for most instrument work: slightly greater tendency for the joint to "creep," lower moisture & heat resistance, short shelf life, no initial tack. Many instrument makers and repairers use liquid hide glue, but they are (or should be) careful to test each batch, in addition to watching the expiration date printed on the bottle." Which is enough for me to say that he doesn't like 'em. ------- Date: Tue, 21 Feb 2012 15:15:31 -0800 From: "Frank Filippone" Subject: RE: [OldTools] Hide Glue It is regular 192 strength Hide glue, with an additive (Urea) to slow the "rotting" time.... but that was from memory. If you get it, and I do recommend it as a good product, keep in the fridge where it will keep in good shape longer. As I remember, you heat it in warm water to use just like old fashioned heated hide glue. Used on a few projects where open time was a real issue. See: http://www.oldbrownglue.com/ Note.. there is a posted comment there about using hide glue that was not too complimentary. OTOH, Stradivarious never minded the stuff...... Note 2: In our class, we are using TiteBond #1. The guys seem OK with using it instead of hide glue. I have no idea why or why not, but T#1 is not too reversible... maybe guitars are considered replaceable rather than repairable? Frank Filippone http://www.oldbrownglue.com/index.html ------- Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2012 13:16:29 -0500 From: "Jim Simmons" Subject: RE: [OldTools] Hide Glue To use premade hide glue which you have had stored in a cool place, You have to warm it up to a good operation temp, about 120 to about 140 degrees! Hide glue that is liquid at room temp is worthless, its good bad or the person that had mixed/made it did not know what they were doing. If you have a Luthier who uses plastic wood glues, he at best worthless, for the instrument has built/repaired can never be taken apart for repair (it is made to thrown away). The first violins were put together some 400 years ago, the hide glue is still holding! They were no modern type wood glues until the last century. I ask you, and those luthiers you quoted, what was used before Titebond, are any of the modern wood glues, ask them how to remove any of the modern glues/epoxies from the wood on which it has been applied, so that repair might be made! Hide glue is removed by warm water, you can use cold, it just takes longer! Jim Simmons ------- Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2012 15:26:12 -0500 From: Ed Minch Subject: Re: [OldTools] Hide Glue Jim My daughter is a high-end guitar repairist http://www.retrofret.com/ She just replaced the bridge on Roseann Cash's Martin F-7 arch top that had a flat top installed in the 50's. She also worked on a prototype Gibson L-5 that she fell in love with - this was a $50,000 guitar. She said that they use Titebond #1 and they can get it apart no problem with heat and water and a polished thin palette knife. Most guitar makers use carpenter's yellow glue. My 1974 Martin (000-28) is put together with yellow glue and she just re-set the bridge after 38 years. Ed Minch ------- Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2012 16:10:05 -0800 From: "Cliff Rohrabacher, Esq." Subject: Re: [OldTools] Hide Glue I'm surprised when people express doubts about the relative strength of hide glue. The stuff is plenty strong. If the test is that it has to be stronger than the wood it's gluing then it passes the test gloriously. I'm hard pressed to think of a more relevant or demanding test for a wood glue. The reason I tend not to use it, is the simplest of them all : Ease of use. When you have a complicated assembly, you need open time. Hide glue presents one more challenge to manage because you don't get very long at all. Titebond, resourcinol, and epoxies are way more forgiving where assembly time is concerned. ------- Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2012 20:05:01 -0500 From: "Jim Simmons" Subject: RE: [OldTools] Hide Glue Titebond provides the following information; "Glue joint "squeeze out" may make the area around the joint difficult to stain. Although sanding the area will help, we recommend using masking tape to cover the areas that you do not want exposed to glue". Has she ever reglued a joint with Titebond on which titebond has been used. Dried titebond will not combine with the newly applied titebond, it will just stick on it. Something like I can use elmer's school glue to glue two pieces of plastic together, it may hold, but it could break at any time. This just my opinion, from the facts that I know, yours and others may be different! Jim Simmons ------- Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2012 01:46:56 +0000 From: Micah Salb Subject: RE: [OldTools] Hide Glue I rarely use any glue other than hide glue. For a bigger or more important project, I use dried granules; otherwise I use liquid hide. I've never had failure problems or inadequate set time. In fact, one thing that I like is the propensity of hide glue to form a grip when you rub joints together. But I also love how forgiving it is. I remember making a mistake once and taking a joint apart after it had been in place for 15 or 20 minutes. By using hot water, I was able to liquefy the glue and reglue. If that were Titebond, I think I'dve had serious problems. Also, I don't care about squeeze-out because hide glue doesn't interfere with finishes. Micah ------- Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2012 03:45:07 -0800 (PST) From: Thomas Conroy Subject: Re: [OldTools] Hide Glue There's open time available if you want it, though maybe not enough and at the cost of convenience. The simplest way to get longer open time is to work in a hot room with warmed wood. Hot glue is graded by "bloom strength," how many grams weight it takes to rupture the surface of a standard jelled solution with a standard poking instrument. Think of sticking your finger into a bowl of jello; this was the actual test that was quantified as gel strength. As the bloom gets higher you have a shorter open time and more strength. Other factors that shorten the open time are cold wood (Victorian woodworkers, IIRC, would build up fires of shavings to warm the joints before glue-up), cold room, glue under 150 F., glue too liquid (so less volume on the joint to hold the heat). There are others too. It gets complex: for instance, if you leave glue in the pot and re-warm it, it will break down a bit, and you find that you are working with a glue that has, in effect, a lower gel strength than what you started with. It doesn't take much to chill hot glue; I found that even in the Bay Area, where a chilly day is in the forties, I couldn't use hot glue for bookbinding when my house was unheated in winter. Or you can get longer open time by adding a small amount of a "gel suppressant" like urea to the glue, which will extend the open time; commercial liquid hide glues stay liquid by adding lots of gel suppressant, but you needn't be extreme. "Old Brown Glue" adds some urea, but it isn't really a liquid hide glue; it is solid at room temperature and requires some heating. Tools for Working Wood offers 1-pound quantities of hot glue in 192 grams, 251 grams, and 315 grams bloom strength: http://www.toolsforworkingwood.com/Merchant/merchant.mvc?Scre en=PROD&Store_Code=toolshop&Product_Code=MS-HIDEGL.XX&Category_Code=TI http://tinyurl.com/26g7w4p They say that 192 would be traditional for veneering, 251 for cabinet- making, 315 for high-stress areas like instrument necks. Makes sense to me as a useful range for woodworking, going from what I know from bookbinding. I would guess that a violinmaker might use glue even lower, since he wants the body joints to break before the wood does; somewhere I got the impression that this might be down around 150 bloom, but you can buy glue down to at least 130 or so, and up into the 500 or 600 range (but there is a price break over 391 gram, which is what I use for binding based on research published by the Government Printing Office back in the 1920s or 1930s). You can get a wider range of grades, by steps of maybe 20 grams from the low 100s to the 600s (IIRC) from Bjorn Industries, but you have to buy 5 pounds minimum (that's enough to last me for several years): http://www.bjorn.net/index.html Bjorn says their glue is American-made, so they must be buying from Milligan and Higgins, the last company making hot glue in the United States, but M & H's minimum order is, I believe, 50 pounds. And dry hot glue does have a shelf life, though it is years or possibly decades. Fifty pounds isn't an option for me. Old Brown Glue says their glue starts as 192 bloom from M & H. This is apparently on the low end for general woodworking. However, the manufacturing process is to heat it continuously for four days mixed with the urea: http://www.oldbrownglue.com/articles.html The heating would cause considerable degradation and give a glue of much less than 192-gram gel strength if it did gel under test conditions and could be tested. (My late teacher Theo Kahle used a similar process for making cold glue for repairing parchment manuscripts, though he would start with very high-bloom gelatine and rewarm it for half an hour or so every day over a period of months.) So to get the extra-long working time of OBG, you have the trade-off of having an extra-weak glue. This makes good sense for Patrick Edwards, who is a furniture restorer and a specialist in marquetery; in conserving cultural artifacts of high value you can assume that they will be treated with some care, and if they do break, you want your joint to fail, not the wood. But that doesn't make it a good choice for, say, gluing up a new chair for active use; this would make strength more important, and suggest a higher gram strength. Personally I would avoid OBG because of the urea. Sources on modified hot glues say that a gel suppressant is only active in the liquid stage, when it is supressing the gelling, and that it becomes inert when the glue is dry. However, in my field in the nineteen fifties, urea had a brief fashion as a treatment for restoring flexibility to unusably brittle vellum manuscripts; it worked in the short run, I think by holding a higher moisture content in the vellum, but in the long run it proved disastrous, causing the manuscripts (IIRC) to become irreversibly sticky and also encouraging mold. Perhaps it is prejudice on my part to extend the bad results in treating vellum to the very different situation for hot glue; but why take risks? The urea isn't indispensible. Tom Conroy Berkeley ------- Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2012 08:22:36 -0800 From: Richard Subject: Re: [OldTools] Hide Glue Another trick with hide glue is to put it on a piece of glass. When the glue drys it will pull up small silvers of the glass giving the glass a look like ol' jack frost has done it. Richard ------- Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2012 09:48:46 -0800 From: "Frank Filippone" Subject: RE: [OldTools] Hide Glue > Another trick with hide glue is to put it on a piece of glass. When the glue drys it will pull up small silvers of the glass giving the glass a look like ol' jack frost has done it. Use the strongest ( biggest number) hide glue you can get. I think that is 251. Note to class.. this is an non-reversible process.... and somewhat unpredictable. And you thought hide glue was not strong... take that Titebond! Frank Filippone ------- Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2012 15:55:42 -0800 (PST) From: Thomas Conroy Subject: [OldTools] Re: Hide Glue Jim Thompson wrote: >This sounds like a trick I could use in my stained glass work. >I will definitely try it. I seem to remember that this is one of the things high gel strength glue is used for. Up in the 500 range, even. The high bloom glues will accept a lot of water for a given strength and viscosity, which suggests to me that they would shrink a lot when they dry. You might even try gelatine (super-high gel strength, maybe over 1000 on the glue scale), I mean food grade like Knox, or dope woodworking hot glue with food gelatine. Different bloom strengths may produce different crackles. I use small glass jars for glue pots, and I find the dried glue around the rim where I wipe the brush really does pull off the surface of the glass; or if I leave the jar on the heat overnight and the water all evaporates off, the surface of the bottom of the jar can be pulled off. Watch out for flakes of glass in the dried glue; I have cut my fingers on flakes a quarter of an inch in diameter when cleaning out overcooked glue. Tom Conroy ------- Date: Fri, 24 Feb 2012 14:31:12 -0800 From: "Cliff Rohrabacher, Esq." Subject: Re: [OldTools] Re: Hide Glue Hide glue does shrink up but instead of pulling away and opening gaps, it sucks the parts being glued up tight to each other. ------- Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2012 06:39:33 -0500 From: Subject: RE: [OldTools] Hide Glue To the list! Some more information on the Original Titebond versus hide glue; I constructed a joint using two pieces of 1/8" thick scrap spruce using titebond, let it set 8 days, and started trying to find to separate the joint without doing damage to wood. Tried using a hot knife and water, and I can tell you that will not work. A hot knife and hot water will not separate titebond or allow you to remove it. I then sent an email to Franklin Glue asking them if they knew of any way that it could be done, My message and their answer follows; *** From: Jim Simmons [mailto:jimsimx~xxwindstream.net] Sent: Thursday, March 01, 2012 10:51 AM To: contechserv Subject: Titebond Original Wood Glue Got a simple question; Is there any way to unglue/separate a joint when titebond has been used? I have been told that would separate using the same methods as you use when the joint has been made using hide glue. That is, using hot water and a hot knife. I have been assured the this can be done, but no one will show me how to do it, or explain the exact method used. I assure you; this is not a b.s. question, I really need to know the answer! Thank you, Jim Simmons Clearfield, KY 40313 606-783-0902 *** Jim, Raising the glue joint temperature in excess of 170° F with a hair dryer will soften the adhesive and reduce the bond strength. At that point you should be able to begin prying the joint apart. You may have to go back and forth between heating and prying to complete the process. The idea of using a hot knife in addition makes sense to me. Usually there is an initial release near the outside edge, then more heat is applied, then more prying/releasing, then more heat, etc. We do not really have a "specific" recommended method. We simply warn that whatever heat is applied may cause damage to finishes on your wood or other items in the near vicinity, so please be careful. Thank you, Bee Bee Miller Technical Service Representative Construction Products Division Franklin International 2020 Bruck St. Columbus, OH 43207 614-445-1372 *** Remember, after you heat the joint and pry it apart, the glue will remain! Titebond is great wood glue, I use it every day, and will continue to do so! However, I will not use it on any joint that might need to be undone. Jim Simmons Clearfield, KY ------- Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2012 12:23:03 +0000 From: Richard Gorbutt Subject: RE: [OldTools] Hide Glue Sounds about right. Things I've used to get joints apart on guitars/ pianos/double basses: hot blades of various types, hot air paint stripping guns, incandescent bulbs, radiators and a homemade doodad consisting of an electric kettle, an empty evian bottle, some rubber hose, a horse syringe and gaffa tape. I also have a collection of metal plates of various sizes that I can apply to flat areas I want to heat. Helps make the heat more constant and/or spread/store the applied heat. Depends on the joint in question really. Ymmv. Heath Robinson inspired spur of the moment lash ups have served me equally as well as the expensive, new luthier tools from StewMac that have populated some of the workshops I've worked in. Rich ------- Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2012 09:30:03 -0500 From: Ken Shepard Subject: Re: [OldTools] Hide Glue Back years ago when I was repairing guitars, I made a device for removing bridges. It was a 8" flexible silicone heating strip connected to a rheostat. I would clamp the strip to the bridge, and slowly crank up the heat. After about ten minutes, the bridge (generally) could be easily pried off with no damage to the underlying top wood or finish. A lot safer than using a hair dryer. Ken Shepard ------- Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2012 12:48:58 -0400 From: "ASRA-Eduardo De Diego" Subject: RE: [OldTools] CA glue mishaps Snip< falling CA glue bottles> Here is something that even proto-galoots can make in short minutes. http://www.votawtool.com/zcom.asp?pg=products&specific=jnlmhopqg and for the more advanced woodworkers, http://fairfield-pickett-kitbash.blogspot.ca/2010_10_01_archive.html no affiliation and etc. But the votaw website has very cool tools for instrument makers/rebuilders..... enjoying another very fine fall day in the Ottawa region ed ------- Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2012 16:18:06 -0700 From: James Thompson Subject: Re: [OldTools] Spinning Saw Nut--Victory! James Thompson wrote, >>> From this and other replies indicating the same thing about acetone >>> being the debonder of choice for removing CA glue, I am left to >>> wonder why it doesn't work for me. Replying to my own post... I used some medium thick CA glue on a wooden tongue depressor that I had cut in half so I would have 2 matching pieces. I applied CA to one half, and accelerator to the other half, then put them together. I waited several minutes to be sure there was a good cure. I then put the glued depressor into a container of fresh acetone. I waited 5 minutes, nothing. 10 minutes, nothing. After 30 minutes, the 2 pieces came apart. There was still a small amount of CA that was undissolved, but not enough to keep it from separating. So my rant that acetone doesn't work is incorrect. I should have said that it takes so long I never was willing to wait for it. ------- Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2013 21:19:33 -0800 (PST) From: Thomas Conroy Subject: Re: [OldTools] The next slope Ed Minch wrote: "I am in free fall down the slippery slope of guitar making. Just like with tools, wood, and everything else, there are some outstanding sites out there and I was reading one recently on repair. The author said that Knox Gelatin is nothing more than hide glue, and if he has a small job he will mix a a 1/4 oz packet in hot water and bingo! "Anybody have any information about this? There are a couple of small jobs on guitars that would benefit from the easy reversability of hide glue (as opposed to the less easy of Titebond and Elmers) -- like gluing on the bridge (string end holder-downer, Jeff)." The notion that gelatine and hot glue are the same is one of those half- truths that can cause you a hell of a lot of grief. I've used both gelatine and hot glue adhesives, used both a lot, and they aren't interchangable. Both gelatine and "scotch glue" (in effect a synonym for what we usually call hide glue here) are made in the same process, by breaking down the collagen that is the substance of hide and is present in bone. Heating in water untwists the curly collagen molecules and breaks them into shorter fragments, disentangling them from each other and from whatever else they are in (i.e. the mineral parts of bone). Gelatine/hide glue is run in sequential batches. Hide clippings are put in water and heated. Some of the collagen, the least tangled molecules, goes into solution and is decanted off. More water is put on the remaining hide substance, heated again, and heated or boiled more vigorously. This is repeated over and over, maybe a dozen times. Each batch requires more vigorous boiling to disentangle the collagen, and each batch produces shorter molecules. The earlier batches with the longest molecules are blended to make gelatine with consistent properties. The last batches with the shortest molecules are blended to make so-called "rabbit skin" glue with consistent properties. Most woodworking glues ("Scotch glue") are somewhere in the middle. So in a way, pure gelatine and "scotch glue" and "rabbit skin glue" are all the same thing, except for average molecule length. In a similar way, gasoline and kerosine and mineral spirits are all the same thing, except for average molecule length. That doesn't mean that you can use them interchangably for each other. Not gasoline and kerosine, not gelatine and hide glue. The whole point of taking sequential fractions is to give products with different working properties. Gelatine and hide glue have the same tacky-superweak-strong sequence of drying as the material goes from hot/wet to cold/wet to cold/dry. However, gelatine has an extremely rapid passage from tacky to weak (seconds if you are lucky and the shop is warm) whereas hide glue has a much slower passage, minutes and maybe tens of minutes if you are lucky. The consequence is that gelatine is an extremely cranky, difficult adhesive: you have to glue the point, get it in place instantly, and then not touch it, barely even breathe on it, until the next day. Hide glue is much slower and therefore easier to use. You put your glue on, have time to do a rubbed joint, get things inplace properly, and at your leisure put it aside to dry. You still have to be super-careful when it's in the weak stage, but you aren't under the same kind of time pressure to get the joint made. On the other hand, gelatine will give you an extremely strong joint if you use it right. Average woodworkers' hide glue will give a weaker one, rabbit skin glue weakest of all. This sounds like a plus for gelatine, but it really isn't. If you use average hide glue correctly it is more than strong enough; stronger than the wood, which is all you need. And even this is stronger than you want for lutherie, since one of the benefits of rabbit skin glue is the very fact that it is weaker than the wood. You want the joint to part when you drop an instrument, you don't want the wood to break. The "gram strength" or "bloom number" of glue and gelatine is the measure of, in effect, how long the molecules are. Gelatines are up over a thousand or two thousand. For one-off fine bookbinding something around 400 gram is good, but for edition binding around 250gram is possibly better. Woodworking hot glues seem to run in the 300 gram to 150 gram region. Most of the retailers who sell hot glue now carry only one gram strength, and more often than not won't tell you what that is. Tools For Working Wood, however, has three named strengths, and I would suggest that for lutherie the weakest of these might be most appropriate except for joints which need extra strength. If you want to invest in 5 pounds you can get a much fuller range of gram strengths from Bjorn Industries, but this seems like a bit excessive before you know just what you want or even if you like hot glue at all. TFWW sells glue by the pound, a more reasonable experimental quantity http://www.toolsforworkingwood.com/store/item/MS-HIDEGL.XX/Sea rch/hide%20glue/Hide_Glue http://www.bjorn.net/ In book conservation, there was a fad for using gelatine instead of hot glue in the 1970s through, probably, to the current day. The notion was that gelatine and glue were "just the same" except that gelatine was purer and somehow more scientific. Also, hot glue demonified: it was blamed for the deterioration of the paper of book spines, though a more careful consideration of the evidence shows that it was the covering leather that did the damage, not the glue. Conservators who didn't want to use PVA switched to gelatine, and a lot of them have still never used real glue. I went through this illusion, mostly used Knox (food-grade) since it was easy to get and measure rather than using the higher-bloom photo-grade and pharmaceutical-grade gelatines some of my friends preferred. I had to completely relearn my technique when I started using real hot glue instead of food-grade gelatine. I've used both for a long time now, and would still use gelatine under some circumstances. But in general, hot glue is better as an adhesive. Common sense, really: that's what it is made for. If you have one small piece of wood to glue in place, not too fussy a fit, and the workshop is warm and you warm the wood and the gelatine is mixed up, then gelatine would be a good glue for wood. If your glue-up is at all complicated then it would probably break your heart to try to work with it; you'd get failure after failure of the dried joint, or even a failure to stick at all. Get glue. Tom Conroy Berkeley ------- Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2013 08:58:11 -0500 From: Gary Katsanis Subject: Fwd: Re: [OldTools] The next slope Tom, I'm glad you're on the list and take the time to explain some of these things! Thank you. Gary Katsanis Albion NY, USA (just after the most recent winter storm) ------- Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2013 09:03:10 -0500 From: "Cliff Rohrabacher Esq." Subject: Re: [OldTools] The next slope On 1/23/2013 12:19 AM, Thomas Conroy wrote: > The notion that gelatine and hot glue are the same is one of those > half-truths that can cause you a hell of a lot of grief. And leave an ungodly aftertaste in your mouth too. ------- Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2013 09:04:35 -0500 From: Zachary Dillinger Subject: Re: [OldTools] The next slope And you thought peanut butter sticking to the roof of your mouth was annoying... just wait until you get your tongue glued up there with horse sauce. Zachary Dillinger The Eaton County Joinery www.theeatoncountyjoinery.com ------- Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2013 16:07:06 -0500 From: "Jim Simmons" Subject: RE: [OldTools] The next slope Ed, Just for info: "Hide and bone glues make up the two major types of animal glue. Hide glue, which is by far the superior of the two, yields a fairly neutral pH in solution, usually in the range of 6.5 to 7.4, although wider variations are possible. Bone glue (Gelatin) is generally acidic, having pH values of 5.8 to 6.3. A glue having a high acidity absorbs less water and tends to set more slowly than a glue having low acidity." FWIW Stick with hide glue that you have to warm up to use (old brown glue). Glues that you can use at room temperature are generally of lessor quality! Jim Simmons ------- Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2013 09:55:19 -0800 From: scott grandstaff Subject: Re: [OldTools] Building the Paul Sellers Workbench ? Day 2 I guess I am just a risk taker and experimenter. I never talked about it before. I am not accustomed to failed glue joints either!!! I will thin yellow glue any way I like, any time I want! I don't use it completely straight very often at all. Never had a problem. In fact, I only have trouble when I don't match the glue consistency to the requirements of the project. (I need bold underline for that last statement in the worst way.) Glue as it comes, is only best for a percentage of your projects. For others you have to match the work. If the joint is too tight you will squeeze it all out the way it comes. If you need more open time to adjust during a long glue up, thin it some. Lay down a layer of -very- thin glue first if it's absorbent like leather or pulpy wood. Let it sink in. Then come back with a layer of thicker glue. End grain needs thinned glue to even have a chance. If you are re-amalgamizing veneer or plywood in general, (I have even repatriated shattered particle board), I use watered yellow glue quite a lot. You can't get it to sink in deep enough otherwise! I like to thin it, up to 25% water (more or less), and then use a syringe with a small tip. Hose it in and used compressed air (a soda straw works real well) to drive it in deeper. Squeeze a little to spread it, then I go again. Once glue saturated you can bring on the cramps and wipe the excess squeezout. Lots of clamps. Cauls galore, and all the clamps you own, never enough clamps! I have some cute pictures of small items wearing copious clamps like a porcupine somewhere, but I can't find them this morning, sorry. You aren't going to save a delaminated veneered piece of work any other way. I have put any number of ruined pieces back in service this way. Never had a complaint yet. I thin glue that was starting to go off in the bottle, just to save it. Watch out for the "type 3" types, Titebond or Elmers either one, they have a real short shelf life. But you can extend that some if you catch it going off, and thin it. Under my bench I have several glue bottles. Each is a different water ratio. About the only yellow glue I use straight from the gallon anymore is classic Elmers yellow #1. The original yellow glue is still my favorite. I fell in love with it forever ago, I always come back to it. I don't know where they came up with the concept that totally waterproof glue is necessary. I think they just wanted new products to hype. Elmers #1 is the only one I'll buy for money anymore. I have tried the others and see no improvement for me. Of course I would never pass a 3/4 bottle of any kind of glue at a yard sale by, for a quarter. Cheapskate that I am. I can always find a use for it. Household chemicals and supplies gobble up a larger percentage of a budget than many people realize. I am trying the newish Gorilla brand yellow PVA glue at the moment. Somebody was moving, and I'll run to the boxes of supplies like a shot! The Gorilla seems like ordinary type 2 yellow glue to me so far, but it's a little thick. I'll cut it some. heh. I am old enough to remember when white glue was the miracle of the day. Now they call it school glue or something, but it was the be-all/end-all of wood glue when I started at this shop life. My mother could still embarrass me to death with some childhood projects made with white glue, that are holding just fine. dammit I suppose I am screwing up again. I should make you all read this on a blog, or pay for lessons or a book, and then it would be ground breaking knowledge, and it would be oh so.... impressive!! Before the end of the week several others will have copied this and all the newbies and symposium fans will be paying $500 a weekend conference to learn this. But here I am delivering it direct to your personal mailbox, for free, as always. yours Scott Scott Grandstaff Box 409 Happy Camp, Ca 96039 http://www.snowcrest.net/kitty/sgrandstaff/ http://www.snowcrest.net/kitty/hpages/index.html ------- Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2013 14:57:23 -0600 From: docholladay0820 Subject: Re: [OldTools] Building the Paul Sellers Workbench ? Day 2 Scott, Why don't you tell us how you really feel. Hee! Hee! A while back, I was making something (don't remember what it was). I ran out of yellow glue (I also usually use the Elmer's). I ran up to my wife's craft room and borrowed a bottle of school glue that she had. It worked very well and since then, I go to a discount craft supply store and buy the stuff by the gallon. The only other glues that I use much are epoxy and CA on occasion. I have polyurethane glue on hand, but only because someone gave it to me. I have used it, but rarely. It simply is a pain to work with and too messy. I like my trusty old school "white" glue. I did a test once. I face glued two pieces of wood with yellow glue and two pieces with white glue. Then I tried to break the joint of each. The wood broke before the glue joint in each case. In my thinking, if the glue joint is stronger than the material being glued, it is strong enough for me. My dos centavos, Doc ------- Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2013 20:57:35 -0400 From: Ed Minch Subject: [OldTools] Titebond removal I made a major booboo on a guitar and had to remove the back - the good news is that the finish was not on yet. It was glued all around the curvy edges with Titebond glue and I did what an expert told me to do. Using MLW's iron set on medium heat, I held it at the edge for about 15-20 seconds. Then using my thinnest putty knife, I worked the top off by sticking it in the joint and moving it sideways. By working a couple inches at a time, it took less than an hour. It worked so quickly because the back is 1/10" thick and the heat readily made it into the joint. There was a small amount of residue remaining that came off with a quick stroke of a plane and 80 grit sandpaper on a block. So if any of you make a similar mistake you know you can undo it. But remember it isn't really a mistake unless you can't fix it. Ed Minch ------- Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2013 22:48:20 -0400 From: "Cliff Rohrabacher Esq." Subject: Re: [OldTools] Titebond removal Just be sure to remove all the wood that is contaminated with cured off glue for re-assembly. Titebond does not adhere well to itself like hide glue does. ------- Date: Sat, 7 Dec 2013 13:46:51 -0700 From: "Ernest Shaver" Subject: [OldTools] Repairing Bakelite I'm trying to repair my mother's old singer sewing machine (ca. 1950 -- that qualifies as an old tool, right?). Some of the Bakelite (I assume) parts are broken. They are fairly clean breaks and I think I have all the pieces. Will JB Weld work to repair them? Does anyone have a better suggestion? If anyone knows, you all do. ES ------- Date: Sat, 7 Dec 2013 15:00:26 -0600 From: John Holladay Subject: Re: [OldTools] Repairing Bakelite Will the parts be under stress after assembly? If not, I would use a good quality CA glue. If the will be under stress, I would choose a good epoxy glue. I think that JB is epoxy based, so, it should work. Either way, be sure to get the mating pieces good and clean prior to gluing. I love epoxy when it works, but is sometimes have trouble getting it to work right. I wonder if I sometimes don't get the mixture of resin to hardener just right. Doc ------- Date: Sat, 07 Dec 2013 14:41:27 -0800 From: James Thompson Subject: Re: [OldTools] Repairing Bakelite I have been using CA for quite a while now, and I like it a lot. Fixing things like you are asking about is pretty straight forward if you understand CA. Knobs and other small objects have to be positioned accurately, or they don't ever look right after repair. My problem with using anything that has to be applied before assembly, like epoxy, is that the pieces never seem to fit exactly back where they belong. I tape my pieces together and then add one drop of thin CA glue into/onto the crack. Wipe off any that remains above the crack with a rag wetted with acetone. After the CA has had time to cure, remove the tape so you can add more CA to the crack to fill any areas that didn't get filled the first time. Chances are very good that some CA will run out. Remove this with the acetoned rag immediately. If you try to fill the cracks while there is tape on it, you will likely have hardened CA that got out of the crack. This will be difficult to remove. ------- Date: Sat, 7 Dec 2013 19:24:23 -0700 From: "B&C Bohl" Subject: RE: [OldTools] Repairing Bakelite I don't have experience working with Bakelite so don't know if there are compatibility issues with certain types of adhesives but I don't believe that I would use JB Weld for bonding two parts together. Generally you want a rather thin, controlled bond line. I have used JB Weld very successfully for a number of applications but those have been where I needed to fill a void, plug a leak, or build up material. It is a heavily filled epoxy that is great for those applications. To bond two plastics parts together I would try a CA (test a little on Bakelite first) or a standard epoxy. Bill ------- Date: Sat, 7 Dec 2013 22:35:52 -0500 From: "ASRA-Eduardo De Diego" Subject: RE: [OldTools] Repairing Bakelite There is an extensive thread here http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=28.0 that discussed bakelite repair ad nauseam. Ed in Ottawa; snipping heavily ------- Date: Sat, 07 Dec 2013 22:48:14 -0500 From: "Cliff Rohrabacher Esq." Subject: Re: [OldTools] Repairing Bakelite Bakelite is not a plastic in the usual Thermoplastic Olefin sense of the word. It's some kind of filler talc flour or linen sheeting or even chopped cloth with a thermosetting phenol formaldehyde bonding agent that requires heat to set up. It takes all epoxies quite nicely -- titebond too. Properly speaking it is a plastic, but it is nothing like the olefin family. JB Weld works in thin glue line application quite nicely too. There was a time when I scoffed at the claims made advertising the stuff but time and experience have changed my attitude. The stuff is almost magical. I've epoxied many bits of ceramic and watched the epoxy turn yellow and then fall apart from use and heat while the JB stuff can go in the sanitizing cycle of my Miele dishwasher over and over showing no signs of failure. I've used epoxy to glue metal to metal joinery, such as the brass back on a dovetail saw. The Epoxy fails when the saw is flexed even a little from shear, but when I re-did it with JB the JB does the job marvelously. But for the ugly black-ish color and cost of the stuff, I'd use it for a lot more than I do. I too like it when I have to fill in large gaps with a strong material. ------- Date: Sat, 07 Dec 2013 19:53:05 -0800 From: scott grandstaff Subject: Re: [OldTools] Repairing Bakelite Did you say Singer? Isaac Singer hardly made anything you can't get plenty of. From fairly early, to very recent manufacture, Singer is almost universally --not-- hard to get. Worse than Stanley ever thought about being!! ....... Singer?? If all you need is a Singer part? A regular Singer part? Old sewing guys are as bad as any of us Old Tool guys! I'll be glad to search my own little boneyard........ But my buddy "Guy" in Mo?....... I know a man Guy, who has both a small, and a large warehouse of old sewing machines and parts! And reasonable!! If you are like me, you'll ask for the parts you need, and then feel so bad for the nuisance value of your order, you will get some needles for your machine and maybe some bobbins and oil etc. just to round up the order. http://www.sewingmachineparts.net/ Scott Grandstaff Box 409 Happy Camp, Ca 96039 http://www.snowcrest.net/kitty/sgrandstaff/ http://www.snowcrest.net/kitty/hpages/index.html ------- Date: Sun, 8 Dec 2013 15:12:17 -0700 From: "Ernest Shaver" Subject: [OldTools] Repairing Bakelite Thanks for all the responses. Scott (welcome back, by the way) and I think someone else, suggested replacement parts. I checked on line, and it's no exageration -- we Galoots got nothing on those sewing machine people. Parts are readily available and not expensive. I'll probably try to glue up the broken parts anyhow, just for the experience. If anyone is interested in the back story, my mom bought the machine when she was in high school. It's a portable, and has a fairly nice carrying case. A few weeks ago, some creep broke into my parents house, and apparently thought there was something valuable in the case, so he smashed it open, breaking some parts on the machine in the process. The kicker? The case wasn't locked. This confirms an observation from early in my legal career: the one common characteristic of criminals is that they're stupid (one of the reasons I don't represent them). I'm repairing the case, too, but that's just a straightforward glue and paint project. Thanks again for everyone's suggestions. ES ------- NOTE TO FILE: The following message came out of a conversation at the Oldtools email group about the various members' workbenches. Here Scott describes his experiences with some of the modern "waterproof" versions of wood glues and shows why indoors the original glues can be a far better and more economical choice. ------- Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2014 13:39:08 -0700 From: scott grandstaff Subject: Re: [OldTools] Show me your benches! OK I am going out on a limb. He said foolheartedly. It's not a wimpy limb though. It has to be close. Ballpark close anyway. Here's my theory. It really seems to me like 3" is about standard. Build it up any way you want, but 3" of wood is usually about right. If you use 2X4's you will be lucky to get the entire three. And since it's soft wood, well........ people do get by with it. As far as I have seen and known, you can get there any way you want though. The inches of thickness count. The Ikea countertop you tried Mal, was just fine, except starving for more mass. A couple more layers of 3/4" planks or a couple thicknesses of 3/4" ply under that top? Maybe another Ikea countertop just like it instead? Stacked? Would have made what you can park a truck on. Mine is old lab countertop and some really primo 1/4 sawn fir, plus an entire second layer, (another 1 1/2" of fir), just laminated directly underneath. Get wood, stack it up. You can stack em face to face with clamps if you have wide wood. Or stack 'em vertically if that is what you have. Wood to the neighborhood of 3". It's pretty easy to laminate big pieces of wood in the average home shop. Lately I am going back the first generation poly glues. The new 3rd generations or titebond/elmers/gorilla and all supposed to be waterproof. Maybe they are, but they are also ridiculously apt to harden in the bottle and make a very poor glue indeed when that happens. First generation standard yellow Titebond or Elmers? They set slow and they harden tough and you aren't going to leave the thing outside, in boiling water. So you are in little danger of failing glue. And the good part is the quart and half you have leftover? Will still be glue in 6 months or a year. Super 3rd generation glues will all be ruined in that time. Find your best smoothest levelest concrete or other stable floor location, and just drop the first layer down. Maybe a dropcloth piece of plastic first? Just to make the cleanup easier? Roll on a layer of glue and stack it up. Keep gluing and piling. Whatever it takes to get you to ballpark three inches. Or stack up your planks vertically in clamps. Same square footage in the end. Then bring on trash cans and buckets. As many as you can squeeze on. And fill them with water. 8 pounds a gallon. Spare gallons of paint stacked up in the corners? Whatever else you have handy that is real heavy, but stable? Put some weight on the thing!!! Mop up excess glue squeezeout now, (wet sponge is what I use) and leave it overnight. Come back to a brick in the morning. You are going to add aprons and dog mortice laminations and vise work parts. Whatever you choose or whatever you have. But if you end up with that three inches in the middle... users.snowcrest.net/kitty/sgrandstaff/images/hometools/benchvise.jpg yours Scott Scott Grandstaff Box 409 Happy Camp, Ca 96039 http://www.snowcrest.net/kitty/sgrandstaff/ http://www.snowcrest.net/kitty/hpages/index.html ------- Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2015 19:16:56 -0500 From: rohrabacher Subject: Re: [OldTools] Slightly off-topic mechanical challenge On 2/23/2015, Erik Levin via OldTools wrote: > and epoxy I can't tell you ( really - I haven't kept track) of how many times epoxy has -- after some period of too few years the epoxy i used -- turned to crap. But it's happened so many times that I really don't like the stuff anymore. I've never had solder go bad though. Not lead, not gunsmith's, not silver -- no solder I've ever used has gone south. To press a gear onto a tiny shaft I think I'd trust temperature differential (hot gear & cold shaft) before epoxies. ------- Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2015 00:52:03 +0000 (UTC) From: Erik Levin Subject: Re: [OldTools] Slightly off-topic mechanical challenge Can't argue about preferring solder/braze to epoxy. This is why epoxy was the 'if all else fails' Issue here is to the shaft of a motor, presumably gearmotor, where heat and caustics for soldering are really not a good option. I will say that, conditions being appropriate, I have had epoxy hold up well for over 30 years. This requires proper prep work, as well as control against chemical exposure and heat in service. Not always easy, but often doable. ------- ------------------------------------------------------------------ This is just one of some 80 files about machining and metalworking and useful workshop subjects that can be read at: http://www.janellestudio.com/metal/index.html ------------------------------------------------------------------