This is just one of some 80 files about machining and metalworking and useful workshop subjects that can be read at: http://www.janellestudio.com/metal/index.html ------------------------------------------------------------------ The use, repair, and maintenance of AMMCO 6 or 7 inch metal shapers and the Delta 7 inch metal shaper (aka Delta-Milwaukee or Delta-Rockwell) are discussed here. The metal shapers produced under the Delta brand share the later AMMCO features and identical, or very similar, parts. If you got to this file directly from my HOME PAGE, return there by using your browser's back button. BUT if you came to this file as the result of a web search engine, see many additional files on my home page Machining and Metalworking at Home http://www.janellestudio.com/metal/index.html SAFETY WARNING BEWARE: DO NOT ASSUME that any subject matter or procedure or process is safe or correct or appropriate just because it was mentioned in a news/user group or was included in these files or on this site or on any other web site or was published in a magazine or book or video. Working with metals and machinery and chemicals and electrical equipment is inherently dangerous. Wear safety devices and clothing as appropriate. Remove watches, rings, and jewellery -- and secure or remove loose clothing -- before operating any machine. Read, understand and follow the latest operating procedures and safety instructions provided by the manufacturer of your machine or tool or product. If you do not have those most recent official instructions, acquire a copy through the manufacturer before operating or using their product. Where the company no longer exists, use the appropriate news or user group to locate an official copy. Be careful -- original instructions may not meet current safety standards. Updated safety information and operating instructions may also be available through a local club, a local professional in the trade, a local business, or an appropriate government agency. In every case, use your common sense before beginning or taking the next step; and do not proceed if you have any questions or doubts about any procedure, or the safety of any procedure. Follow all laws and codes, and employ certified or licenced professionals as required by those laws or codes. Hazardous tasks beyond your competence or expertise should also be contracted to professionals. Let's be really careful out there. (c) Copyright 2003 - 2016 Machining and Metalworking at Home The form of the collected work in this text file (including editing, additions, and notes) is copyrighted and this file is not to be reproduced by any means, including electronic, without written permission except for strictly personal use. ========================================================================== A VERY BRIEF HISTORY OF AMMCO AND DELTA METAL SHAPERS (before getting on to the practical, helpful metal shaper stuff you want) Frederick G. Wacker (Sr.) founded Ammco Tools, Inc. in 1922. Fortunately the acronym AMMCO is pronounceable and we do not often have to say/write Automotive Maintenance Machinery Co. The metal shapers badged AMMCO in this file were all produced by AMMCO, for AMMCO. Herbert Tautz founded what we call Delta in 1919. He started in a one-car garage in Milwaukee and originally called it The Delta Specialty Company. In 1945, Rockwell bought Delta and called it The Delta Power Tool Division of Rockwell Manufacturing Company. In 1948 Delta bought the AMMCO metal shaper design (but not the AMMCO company) to produce it under their own various names of Delta Milwaukee and then Rockwell Delta. When Pentair bought the Delta division from Rockwell in 1981, they wisely kept the name as Delta Machinery. NOTE TO FILE RE: AMMCO METAL SHAPER SERIAL NUMBERS AND DATES For the narrow purpose of recording markings or serial numbers, only AMMCO ones have been documented in this first section. No one reading this note will be amazed to learn that a new owner of any type of machine nearly always asks the group what year his baby was born. Within this file are various discussions about serial numbers, date codes (if any really exist?), and a survey that -- as of the end part of 2003 -- has had very few AMMCO metal shaper owners contributing their info. To make it easier for any AMMCO readers to find their latest serial number info, the updated survey results will be kept here at the start of this file, including new shapers' as they are added (if the owners provide enough accurate details to help here). Complete info per the survey questions in my message of 30 April 2003 are really appreciated to make this top-of-file listing more useful to others. The separate file "AMMCO Metal Shaper Disassembly" (applies to Delta also) is dedicated to that one subject, although there is some disassembly info buried HERE in messages concerned primarily with other topics. Please read both files. Data/messages/conversations in the rest of this file are pretty well in chronological order with the newest discussions at the end. THE REST OF THIS FILE HAS A LOT OF GOOD INFO ON: REPAIR, PARTS, OPERATION, ETC. AND NUMEROUS HELP CONVERSATIONS TO KEEP YOUR AMMCO (or Delta) GOING. AMMCO METAL SHAPER AND DELTA METAL SHAPER FREE ON-LINE MANUALS. Scott Logan has posted several metal shaper manuals in high resolution PDF files on his site at http://lathe.com/catalogs See his message here 9 Feb 2005 for file details. ========================================================================== SURVEY CONSOLIDATED AMMCO METAL SHAPER SERIAL NUMBERS LIST STARTS HERE (Updated regularly as more are reported) PLATE SAYS AMMCO 6" SHAPER (7 examples) David S's Serial Number: SH220 Elevation Crank: Below Bench Pulley System: 3 Speed flat belt drive Original Color: not reported Other Remarks: Missing elevation crank and ratchet mechanism. [NOTE TO FILE: The above MAY be the lowest serial number found so far, UNLESS the serial numbering system was changed. The next two shapers are unique in having the serial number start with a 6 and then a space, which might suggest that SH6 really stood for SHaper6inch and space and then the actual production number. In that case SH6 128 and SH6 167 were earlier than SH220 -- if the 6 was really a model designation and it was dropped after a short while.] Bill B'S Serial Number: SH6 128 (space in number is correct not typo) Elevation Crank: Below Bench Pulley System: 3 Speed flat belt drive Original Color: dark grey, one coat wo/primer; very little casting filling Other Remarks: Ratchet feed is by push-pull cable, mounted on factory cabinet with v-belt guard but missing flat belt guard and the bull gear door. Bull gear is phenolic and undamaged. Jim B'S Serial Number: SH6 167 (space in number is correct not typo) Elevation Crank: Below Bench Pulley System: 3 Speed flat belt drive Original Color: dark grey Other Remarks: fabricated motor/pulley assembly mounted behind shaper E-bay example included because it had date documentation Serial Number: SH41452 Elevation Crank: Below Bench Pulley System: 3 Speed Flat Belt Original Color: Appears to have been grey; now faded blue wearing off Other Remarks: Wooden bench. The original packing list is dated 5/23/41. John's Serial Number: SH41522 Elevation Crank: Below Bench Pulley System: 3 Speed Flat Belt Original Color: Dark Green (if repaint, well done) Other Remarks: Appears to be over a grey undercoat, but grey could have actually been the original color. No door, no guards, no original vice, non-standard feed. Geoff K'S Serial Number: SH1111019 Elevation Crank: Below Bench Pulley System: not reported Original Color: dark grey (almost charcoal) Other Remarks: The instruction sheet and parts list that I received from the previous owner has the following on the front page: "7" Precision Shaper ---- for serial numbers beginning with SH-1111500". The date at the bottom left of the front page is Dec 1941, and denotes the side crank model with 3 oilers on each side of the ram. (Mine has one on each side but I have now drilled the extra holes and will fit the extra oil covers - more oil is always better.) In the drawings the raising crank comes out on the side via a bevel gear. So mine might one of the last batch using the "under" crank. This may be of some help to those working out the date code system. Steve's Serial Number: SH1111031 Elevation Crank: Below Bench Pulley System: 3 Speed Flat Belt Original Color: At an earlier time the unit was Bright Red. Other Remarks: The red was well painted and in places only the factory is likely to have done it; since then was mostly overpainted a bright green, but not very well done. No sign of a primer color unless it was a dark grey similar to cast iron. Original vise and feed, no door, no guards. ------------------------------- PLATE SAYS AMMCO 7" SHAPER (21 examples) Herb W's Serial Number: SH164492 Elevation Crank: Right Side Pulley System: 4 Speed V Original Color: grey over red primer Other Remarks: table holes not threaded; door is present but, unfortunately, the decal is gone or painted over; 1/4 HP motor Rick's now owned by Jeff Serial Number: SH264610 Elevation Crank: Right Side Pulley System: 4 Speed V Original Color: Bright Green? Other Remarks: Gray paint on casting, covered by Bright Green (then covered by Pea Green repaint). Original vice, door, Westinghouse 1/6HP motor Dan Linscheid's Serial Number: SH343367 Elevation Crank: Right Side Pulley System: 4 Speed V Original Color: Maroon Other Remarks: Has attached plaque, "THIS MACHINE CONFORMS WITH THE ORDERS OF THE WAR DEPARTMENT" Original vice, door, Westinghouse 1/3 HP 115 VAC motor Andy's Serial Number: SH364780 Elevation Crank: Right Side Pulley System: Motor and countershaft missing Original Color: Other Remarks: There's also a dealers' badge on the center of the front base REYNOLDS MACHINERY COMPANY MACHINE TOOLS CLEVELAND OHIO Larry's Serial Number: SH443444 Elevation Crank: Right Side Pulley System: 4 Speed V Original Color: Dark gray and it has a red lead primer. Other Remarks: The shaper is in excellent condition, with very few scratches and no damage. The color closely matches Rust-Oleum's Smoke Gray. I received the machine on its original maple stand (as seen in brochures for the machine) with vice, access door, all belt guards and the original lamp. It is missing the lamp mounting bracket. It has three snap cap oil ports on each side of the ram frame. Table lift: By a large `U' shaped lifting bar mounted on the end of the cabinet and wheels at the opposite end. The bar was originally chromed. The machine also had a riveted metal label on the feed mechanism side near the base, as follows. THIS MACHINE CONFORMS TO THE ORDERS OF THE WAR PRODUCTION BOARD Chris' Serial Number: SH543490 Elevation Crank: right side Pulley System: 4 Speed V belt Original Color: faded light green -- probable original Other Remarks: Has War Production Board plate on it; no door Matt's Serial Number: SH554010 Elevation Crank: Right Side Pulley System: 4 Speed V Original Color: not reported Other Remarks: It has all of the guards, and what looks to be an original vise. It has the table support on the front of the table. The side cover on the main body is missing. Serial Number: SH743552 Elevation Crank: Right Side Pulley System: 4 Speed V Original Color: not reported Other Remarks: Original brochure dated Feb 15, 1942. Machine has plate "THIS MACHINE CONFORMS TO ORDERS OF THE WAR PRODUCTION BOARD" Karla's Serial Number: SH854192 Elevation Crank: not reported Pulley System: not reported Original Color: Green olive drab Other Remarks: Has War Production Board plate on it; overpainted a light blue. Billy H's Serial Number: SH895997 Elevation Crank: Right side Pulley System: 4 Speed V Original Color: Other Remarks: It was bought new in 46 or 47 in Portland IN and was used in a basket factory. I bought it from a basket factory in Jacksonville Tx that bought all of the IN plant. They already had a 16" shaper in their machine shop, so this was surplus. They have to make all replacement parts for the entire factory (65 employees) as this machinery has not been manufactured since 1938. Mike's "newtool4321" Serial Number: SH932979 Elevation Crank: Right side Pulley System: not reported Original Color: Gray Other Remarks: Has War Production Board plate Thanks to Jeff Mendoza for getting more information about the eBay sale of documentation from a 7" AMMCO c/with packing list Serial Number: SH943657 Other Remarks: Packing list shows above serial number and the date 9-25-44. Motor is 1/3 HP, 110v - 60 cycle, 1725 RPM AC. Jack's Serial Number: SH954271 Elevation Crank: not reported Pulley System: not reported Original Color: Green Other Remarks: It bears a War Production Board plaque, and the original paint is green (almost OD, actually). A stenciled marking underneath the (original) on/off switch says "June 1945", which pretty well establishes its provenance as a WWII machine. Cecil's Serial Number: SH965179 Elevation Crank: Right Side Pulley System: 4 Speed V Original Color: Medium Gray Other Remarks: Paint 100% original, red decal with original worklight, vise, index head, tool holder, wrenches, shields, and motor. Rick M's Serial Number: SH965192 Elevation Crank: Right Side Pulley System: 4 Speed V Original Color: Odd shade of Green Other Remarks: Factory wooden bench/cabinet Jeff's Serial Number: SH1065291 Elevation Crank: Right Side Pulley System: 4 Speed V Original Color: Royal Blue Other Remarks: Factory wooden bench/cabinet is same color Royal Blue; owner reports having seen the same bench design in an early Delta catalog. Rich K's Serial Number: SH1222401 Elevation Crank: Right Side Pulley System: 4 Speed V Original Color: Gray (Dark) Other Remarks: Has a tag on right side behind elevation crank: "This machine conforms to orders of the War Production Board" It allegedly came out of a Nike missile battery mobile machine shop trailer, which would date it to the 50s I think. I don't know when the War Production Board ceased tagging machines. The original pulley died of cancer (cracked shortly after I got it, so I turned a new one from solid 6061). It has the rotary index table, vise, big and small keyway cutter bars, original light (broken hood), and motor (on its last legs). The door was missing, so I turned a new one from 6061 plate. Roger H's Serial Number: SH1222413 Elevation Crank: Right Side Pulley System: 4 Speed V Original Color: not reported Other Remarks: I think it was repainted at the rebuild. Has original vice, no door, holes tapped in table, no guards, motor and jack shaft missing Additional tag Rebuilt by Ohio Rebuilding Co Toledo, Ohio 105 6-51 Rich H's Serial Number: SH1222446 Elevation Crank: Right Side Pulley System: 4 Speed V Original Color: Dark Gray Other Remarks: Tony L's Serial Number: SH1233156 Elevation Crank: Right Side Pulley System: 4 Speed V Original Color: Gray (red primer on the inside of the door) Other Remarks: Directly above the serial no. plaque is another that reads "Northwestern University Dept. of Physics NSL277 Evanston Ill." The other side has a plaque which reads "This Machine Conforms To Orders Of The War Production Board". All the guards are original and in one piece. Val's Serial Number: SH1275815 Elevation Crank: not reported Pulley System: 4 Speed V Original Color: not reported Other Remarks: It belonged to the South-African weather service. Apart from the vice, I also got the original rotary table and the factory "dividing head". It has plates with 30, 36, 32, 20, 40, 22, 27, 28, and 48 holes as well as a large plate with 135 holes. Most of the plates seem to be shop made. It also came with spanners and a tool holder for internal work that seems to be factory made. AMMCO SURVEY RESULTS' CONSOLIDATED LIST ENDS HERE. ========================================================================= AND NOW ON TO THE OTHER MESSAGES ABOUT OUR AMMCO OR DELTA SHAPERS. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Art Volz" Date: Mon Nov 26, 2001 4:15 pm Subject: Re: AMMCO 7" Manual?? Ross-- Unfortunately, I don't have a "supply" of AMMCO shaper manuals. Last spring I "won", on Ebay, a somewhat pricey bound reprint of the 16- page manual for the Rockwell-Delta No. 27-100 7-inch metal shaper, which IS the AMMCO shaper, (PM-1737 revised 12-20-55). At the time, I made several comb-bound reprints of it which were rapidly "gone". I can do a one-time reprint as a service for those who still need a copy, but I don't want to get into a permanent business of doing this. The copies that I am willing to make will cost 10 bucks each, will be Ibico comb bound with a clear cover and will be mailed by Priority Mail w/Delivery Confirmation. When you add it all up to include the cost of materiels, time, transportation, aggravation, and "quality" mailing, I doubt that I'm even breaking even. Those who want such a copy, email me first to get my snail mail address, and then send me a self-addressed USPS Priority Mail label (available from your nearest friendly post office) and a saw-buck or postal money order (no checks and no stamps) and I'll zip you a copy AND email you your Delivery Confirmation number--make sure your snail mail to me has your Email address included. Art ------- From: Pete Somebody Date: Thu Mar 14, 2002 4:04 pm Subject: Re: [Metal_Shapers] Auto feed on my AAMCO not working... On Thu, Mar 14, 2002 at 09:18:40AM -0600, Mike Boucher wrote: > I've got an AAMCO 7" shaper, and its started to give me some > difficulty, and I can't figure it out... > The ratchet auto feed that moves the carriage (is that even the > right word here) seems to have stopped working. All it does is > click in both directions no matter which direction it should be going. I don't know about the AMMCO, but when that happened on my Logan 8", it was just that the ratchet pawl was gunked up. I pulled it apart, cleaned it, rebuilt, no problems since. Oh actually there was one other thing. At one point the bearings holding the horiz. feed screw were too loose. The screw turned so freely that even when the feed pawl was doing the right thing, the screw would just turn back and forth, back and forth. I could tell the ratchet wasn't activating because there was no clicking. A bearing adjustment fixed things, leaving the feed screw motion free but with just enough resistance so that the feed ratchet woud click over the right way. HTH. Pete Somebody http://artfulbodger.net/ ------- From: Dave Kochan Date: Mon Feb 25, 2002 9:32 pm Subject: Re: [Metal_Shapers] Length of Stroke Problem On Sun, 24 Feb 2002, Gronicle wrote: >> I have had my AMMCO 7" shaper for close to a year now and never changed the length of stroke on the ram to date. It was going about 2.5" all the time and that worked for the couple of bits and pieces I have used it on. Last night I started to set up to face off or level a bigger chunk and got an unpleasant surprise. I went inside the case to loosen the hex bolt and slide the adjuster up to get more stroke and durn if the hummer wasn't hung up! It won't go up any more than the 2.5" it was already set on and when I rotate things by hand and try and move the adjuster on the two vertical "rails" I can only get it to go down to less than 0". I used the gentle pry bar bar method and shot everything with Kroil, and tried loosening the two screws that hold the dovetailed adjusting plate to the bull gear, but no luck. Send me some suggestions, guys, before I try and tear everything down to parade rest and really get in trouble. Regards, Bubba K. From the Coastal Empire of Georgia << Mine had the opposite problem. The stroke length could not be adjusted to less than about 5.5". It turns out that the slide was BENT in the shaft region, and would obviously not slide into the dovetail in that configuration. So, I made a new one out of cast iron (to avoid steel-on-steel) with a shaft of hardened drill rod shrunk-fit into it. I used case-hardened 12L14 for the raised boss around the shaft. While I was at it, I made a new bronze bearing block (the old one was worn) and a proper anti-rotation washer and screw. (The old ones were a bodged-up collection of hardware store bits. I found the old anti- rotation washer in the bottom of the shaper, with the pin broken off.) Dave ------- From: "Metalcraft1" Date: Mon Feb 25, 2002 12:29 pm Subject: Re: [Metal_Shapers] Length of Stroke Problem I had the same problem with my Ammco Shaper when I first got it. Did you loosen the hex nut on the other side and then the small one on the brass adjuster. I had to use a wooden dowel rod to pry mine up but once it was busted loose it moves fine now. Pat Dillon ------- From: Gronicle Date: Wed Feb 27, 2002 12:39 am Subject: More on Stroke Adjustment I thank the guys who responded to my request for advise on what to do to try and adjust my AMMCO 7" shaper's stoke. I may be showing my hinnie, but am having a little bit of trouble conforming some of the info to my shaper. The only 7/8ths nut I can find on mine to slack off on is the one outside the case of the shaper on the end of the axile (apparently) for the bull gear. This nut seems to be there to adjust the feed rate rod as described in Jack's email. I backed it off and still couldn't get the dovetailed piece mounted on the bull gear, behind the adjusting block to move. Can't find any marks that indicate a particular position for adjusting the setting. I just tried having the dovetailed piece lined up vertically behind the bronze adjusting block. Is there supposed to be a nut behind the bronze adjusting block? If so I can't see mine because of parts in the way and can't imagine how to get a wrench on it. Please kick me and clairify if I am miss-construeing the advice you have given. Regards, Bubba K. ------- From: "moxiedad2001" Date: Mon Feb 25, 2002 1:25 pm Subject: Re: Length of Stroke Problem Don't know about AMMCO, but I had a similar problem on my South Bend. The problem on mine was burs inside the slotted arm, and to fix it I had to pull the arm out by first removing the shaft on which it rotates at the bottom of the housing (there is a very awkward-to- get-at set screw holding the arm to the shaft, but once it is removed the shaft will easily slide out). The burs were caused by a poor re- assembly by some previous owner. I have had all of this stuff off and on several times; it is really not that big of a job. The other thing you might try is to rap the hex wrench with the palm of your hand. Sometimes I find that merely loosening the hex bolt does not really loosen the assembly. Kim Steiner ------- Date: Sat, 02 Nov 2002 08:20:04 -0000 From: "Art Volz" Subject: Ominous Words...In An Old AMMCO Sales Brochure. Just had the opportunity to review an old 8-page sales brochure describing the "virtues" of the AMMCO 7-inch (7-3/4 inches maximum achievable) shaper. As the brochure states-- QUOTE: "The Bull Gear is of laminated Bakelite, and the Main Drive Pinion of High Carbon Steel. The teeth of both are spiral cut for extremely quiet running and a smooth operating machine. The Main Gear is easily replaceable in case of wear, and is inexpensive if replacement is required after years of service." (Capitalization is as is in the quoted brochure.) Reading between the lines, I get the distinct feeling that pit stops with tire changes were envisioned at the onset as a standard, recurring, procedure. And when I look at the AMMCO bull gear with its stark simplicity it even looks like a tire with its four mounting bolts' holes...just like a tire needing some lug nuts before taking a spin down a country road. Awhile back there was a discussion here about the durability of phenolic resin laminate bull gears vis-a-vis those made conventionally of "forever wear" cast iron. I think the main reason that AMMCO made these gears of phenolics wasn't because they were long lasting and as durable, in the long haul, as CI gears, but that they were "guieter" in operation and cheaper to make. While the spiral cut also aided in providing smoother ramming than straight toothed gears could, they also put more teeth area in contact to reduce forces over unit areas of the Bakelite teeth. And when they did wear--faster than "forever wear" CI teeth as are in my Lewis- 10...well...they were inexpensive...and replaceable. Ominous words? Perhaps...only time will tell for sure...and toothless grins. A question: How many of you groupies...out there in the ether...have AMMCOs with damaged, missing, or repaired teeth on their bull gears; how many of you have Alfred E. Newman "What, me worry?" teeth? If I had an AMMCO, which is a very capable 7-incher, I would be looking for alternate gearing solutions now, (for when I needed to apply them), such as straight toothed steel gears. (Beryllium - bronze would be prettier, but what if the OSHA and EPA polizei found out?) The AMMCO bull gear looks relatively easy to make from plate stock with the teeth indexed on a dividing head while being cut on a vertical mill. Anyone know the outside diameter of both the pinion and bull gear, the number of teeth on each, their approximate diametral pitch, and the center-to-center distance of their shafts? Would be good info to keep on hand here in "files". Art (Houston) -------- Date: Sat, 2 Nov 2002 08:04:59 -0600 From: "Mario L Vitale" Subject: Re: Ominous Words...In An Old AMMCO Sales Brochure. Art, I've never been a big fan of any non-metallic gears, but I have to say that phenolic gears, if designed for the application, can be pretty durable. The bull gear for the AMMCO sounds like an oversized timing gear from a '53 Chevvy. Even with abuse, they would last at least 50 or 60 K miles!?!? (I'll tell you about the abuse offline sometime!) Mario ------- Date: Sat, 02 Nov 2002 20:32:33 -0000 From: "Art Volz" Subject: Re: Ominous Words...In An Old AMMCO Sales Brochure. Mario-- That '53 "shove it or it lay" (as my dad humourously referred to all Chevies although that was the steed he normally bought and rode) was a pretty car...chromed all over in the GM traditional "sun god" manner. (What was that Industrial Designer King's name?) But, on the '53's GM tried a new and thinner (= cheaper) chrome deposition method especially on the bulbrous bumpers that would have made Jayne Mansfield appear under-blessed if both displayed their bounty side-by- side. Our neighbor across the street had one...with its bumpers surrendering to the continual saline assaults caused by South Bend's "no ice on the streets in February" policy. The owner, a Mr. Stan White, was a hard working U.S. Postal employee in the days before workers were urged to show their diversity, and the political correctness of being yourself, by going "postal". Another counselor drove one--a sexy salmon pink and gray one--to Camp Foley, Pine River, MN, in '63; he rode a Greyhound dawg home since he mistakenly had lent his Chevy one nite to a 3rd counselor who promptly wrapped it around a mailbox while out "fox-in'". And such a gorgeous coupe in salmon 'n grey! Those were the days...for chazing summer help at the summer resorts on Whitefish Lake: I used to sign out a canoe on moon filled nites and paddle across the bay sniffin' for possible quarry: "...your canoe, or mine?" Ah...those WERE the days! I used to know whenever the "phenolic sales rep" had visited my dad's design department at Bendix Aviation: he'd bring me home another stamped animal--I had an elephant, a whale...didn't have any monkies to monkey around with that I recall...and a couple of others that I no longer remember what they were. The stampings--maybe from about 1/16 phenolic-linen stock--showed NO chipping at the sheared edge-- maybe they were fine blanked...or, maybe they had sorted out the chipped ones. I can imagine a Sambo stacked platter of 1/16 blanked bull gear toothed disks, offset at the edge just a bit between each stamped layer to form a "spiral" tooth, and affixed with epoxy to form a "pre-form" AMMCO bull wheel ready for final finishing of the teeth. Looking again at the simplicity of the AMMCO bull gear, and if I had a "what, me worry?" grinner, I would be surely tempted to replace it with a similar sized roller-chain sprocket a la Porter- Cable/Logan/Brodhead-Garrett. It would be, to me, with my ingrained WWII era design training of "just stamp it!", so much simpler than trying to repair a phenolic one...or to make one out of "wear forever" CI. Art (Day dreaming on a lazy fall afternooner...in Houston, Capital of the Republic of Texas: "No Virginia, Chappelle Hille is NOT the capital...even though it does have a Dumb Bell ice cream brewery down in the hollow...and a roadkill (thank-you-290) ded meat sausage stuffery atop. :-) ) ------- Date: Sun, 3 Nov 2002 06:23:30 EST From: toolroomtrusteex~xxaol.com Subject: Ammoco shaper phenolic bull gears I suppose the question is where is the secret stash of them? I also have this vision of some sort of indexing rig where the blank is not parallel to the front of the shaper but rotated enough to give a sorta helical effect. I know it would nag me not to have a spare. When I got my ENCO 9x20 lathe 13 YA, my first additional purchases were spare belts and another 80T plastic gear since that was made to be damaged first. I have needed neither and I think that is becasue I have the spares on hand. At the time I had the lathe in a shop under my control on the ship I worked. A broken belt or gear could have taken 2 months to replace back then. Larry Murray ------- Date: Mon, 04 Nov 2002 21:11:40 -0000 From: "Art Volz" Subject: Re: Ammoco shaper phenolic bull gears In Metal_Shapers, toolroomtrustee... wrote: > I suppose the question is where is the secret stash of them? Larry--That's an interesting question: where is the stash? I wonder how Delta would reply if emailed that query: are blank stares possible over the internet? > I also have this vision of some sort of indexing rig where the > blank is not parallel to the front of the shaper but rotated > enough to give a sorta helical effect. That's basically the way such gears were cut on a milling machine, with the universal differential indexing head coupled to the x-axis of the mill's table via appropriate gearing. Last week I looked at a similar geared setup for a shaper in one of Joe W's books ( http://www.lindsaybks.com : No. 4724 - Franklin D. Jones - "Modern Toolmaking Methods" ); it had an illustrated setup that used a straight edged shaper tool (easy to precisly grind the tool to the shape of a specific size gear's single tooth as in its rack shape). The "rack toothed" tool was being used in conjunction with an indexing/dividing head geared to the traversing table to generate a correct tool shape to be used itself to cut the teeth, later, on a circular gear cutter. I'm sure, with sufficient noggin' scratching, that a similar process could be developed for cutting "spiral" gears on a shaper too. Somewhere, and I didn't purloin the PIC when I saw it on the net, is an illustration from a Russian text that depicted the cutting of gears on a shaper using some form of table movement tied into an indexing head; I immediately "steal" all such PICs now. > I know it would nag me not to have a spare. That drives me nutz too. I always am worrying, espeicially with old and long out of production machinery, just what the heck I'm going to do when something on the beasties decides to die. That's why most of my machinery was designed and built Spartan style without the fancy, and not needed, bells and whistles. > When I got my ENCO 9x20 lathe 13 YA, my first additional > purchases were spare belts and another 80T plastic gear > since that was made to be damaged first. I have needed neither > and I think that is becasue i have the spares on hand. At the time > I had the lathe in a shop under my control on the ship I worked. A > broken belt or gear could have taken 2 months to replace back then. One bell and whistle feature that I wish I had on my Logan 10 x 24 are safety spring-loaded release ball clutches on my cross slide and axial feed screws; the AMMCO-7 shaper has a simpler approach that limits its traversing table from "banging" at both left and right extremes by just relieving the thread screws at those locations--no thread to push = no banging. Every Army unit has a PLL of prescribed spare parts always on hand. Machines ain't dumb. They understand a few basic things such as "why break...they've got the parts?"... and big ball pein hammers and large screwdrivers placed within the constant view of each machine-- the machines KNOW that if they misbehave, at least in my shop they do, that extreme violence will be immediately applied to their beings...and possibly to their continued existence. They also know that I have parts on hand. If they're real bad I paint them. Gawd how machines hate to be painted...to them it's a punishment more cruel, more extreme, and more unusual, than the Chinese "1000 Cuts". The only thing worse than painting, to any self-respecing machine tool, is to be powder-coated. :-) Art (Houston) ------- Date: Mon, 04 Nov 2002 16:20:38 -0600 From: jrw Subject: Re: Re: Ammoco shaper phenolic bull gears Art: There is a Gleason Gear Generator that works with a reciprocating motion of two cutters to generate the teeth. I saw one working at a local shop (East side of town). A fancy shaper. I found a photo of a large shaper, The Ohio Dreadnaught, that is listed as probably one of the larger shapers built and in service in a railroad shop and a 36 inch stroke. Joe ------- Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 23:04:04 -0000 From: "too_many_tools " Subject: AAMCO Shaper Design Questions Hi, My shaper (#SH521328) has a table that has slots and holes drilled in the table (all original from the factory as far as I can tell). A question for those AAMCO owners... Concerning the table on the AAMCO shaper, (1) why are the slots on the table not T-slots and (2) why are the holes in the table not threaded? Is there any reason why one could not thread these holes? What improvements did the AAMCO shaper under go during its developement? I have seen several comments mentioning that design changes were made when Rockwell/Delta began selling the AAMCO shaper but they have not gone into any details. Finally, are there any modifications that users have made that they would care to share? TIA for any information you might be able to offer. Too_Many_Tools ------- Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 21:18:09 -0600 From: "Edward Shelton" Subject: Re: AAMMCO Shaper I have an AAMCO shaper on the original stand. The holes in the table and knee were not threaded so that a shoulder bolt could go through to locate and clamp down. There are not " T" slots. The vise and other accessories had small keys on the bottom that fit in the slots to locate the vise to avoid indicating it in every time it was removed. I also have the original brochure and parts diagram if anyone wants copies or info. Ed ------- Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 03:11:45 -0000 From: "jonas1thomas " Subject: Ammco Counter Shaft Repair. I've finally got my Logan Lathe up and running and I'm starting to eye my Ammco shaper. First thing is to get the counter shaft and bearings fixed up. Does any one know why they used Babbbit bearings for the counter shaft? The input shaft has bronze. I thought it would be a lot less hassle for the long haul if I would open up the counter shaft housing slightly to accept a standard bronze oil-light bearing. Is there a down side to this that I'm not considering??? Thanks, JT ------- Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 22:29:03 -0600 From: jrw Subject: Re: Ammco Counter Shaft Repair. JT: I expect the babbit bearings were used for the same reason manufacturers do anything - COST. A good oilite (sintered bronze) bearing would present no problem except you might have to line bore the housings. What is the RPM of the shaft? It may not be high enough to get the system to run in the hydrodynamic range. JRW ------- Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2003 11:49:21 +1300 From: Tom Subject: Project 7" Ammco Shaper in Philadephia.... http://www.physics.upenn.edu/~borders/shaper/ Owner is Buddy Borders: bordersx~xxphysics.upenn.edu Tom ------- Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2003 21:29:08 -0600 From: "Harry" Subject: AMMCO 7" Reference my basket case AMMCO shaper. Finally got everything cleaned up and have started repairing the damaged parts. The bull gear has two stop pins 0 and 180. One is broken out, took 1/4 of a tooth with it. I can repair the tooth okay, but was wondering, is it okay to relocate the pins at 90 and 270. I haven't seen this machine assembled, what is the purpose of these pins? Just looks like they keep the slid from over shooting. don't recall anything like that on my 36" shaper. PS. I use the turkey cooker idea to clean the parts, worked really, really good, thanks for the tip. Harry ------- Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2003 18:01:50 +1300 From: giolw9r4vh001x~xxsneakemail.com Subject: Re: AMMCO 7" The pins just serve to stop the slide travelling too far. From what I recall when mine was apart, there should be no problem relocating things at 90 degrees. My Ammco bull gear is phenolic resin, which does lend itself to gluing in a piece with epoxy and then recutting the tooth, if you are really ambitious regards John ------- Date: Sun, 30 Mar 2003 10:31:01 -0000 From: "dreilanderecht" Subject: Re: Ammco shaper mattdragsx~xxearthlink.net wrote: > Anybody out there have a parts manual for 7"ammco shaper?? Hi Greg, I have a copy of the manual for the Delta-Rockwell version, although mine is actually the Ammco. So I can provide a copy if nobody any closer to you volunteers...I am in New Zealand. Mine has a flat belt drive...I wonder if it is the same? It has a three step flat belt pulley on the right hand side, and there is a motor and countershaft unit which mounts on the bench behind the sahper, This is quite different to the Delta Rockwell arrangement where the whole drive mounts on the shaper. I suspect the Delta Rockwell arrangement is later, it is certainly more compact and tidier. You know there is no need to sell it just because you have another, I have three now, although admittedly they are all differnt sizes. But you can double the rate of metal removal by setting them both going at once. Haven't managed that yet with three, although I have had two shapers, the lathe, and the metal cutting bandsaw all going at once on auto feed with me just twiddling my thumbs. regards John ------- Date: Sun, 30 Mar 2003 15:51:00 -0000 From: "mattdrag2002" Subject: Re: Ammco shaper It sounds just like the one i have!!! Your manual doesn't show the flat belt version does it??? Thanks Greg--- In ------- Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2003 03:13:40 -0000 From: "dreilanderecht" Subject: Re: Ammco shaper The manual is for the Delta Rockwell version with the drive all mounted on the machine. But other than the drive bits, everything else is the same. Send me an email at giolw9r4vh001 at sneakemail.com with your address and I will run off a copy for you. Don't worry about trying to send postage, it is more hassle than it is worth to get small sums of foreign currency. regards John ------- Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2003 16:24:41 -0800 From: "S or J" Subject: Re: Ammco shaper Hi Greg and John Sorry that I was a bit late reading mail on this subject. Greg: As John says, the AMMCO "6 Inch" shaper is actually nearly identical to the later Delta "7 Inch" variant except for the motor and belt system, and perhaps the elevating crank. If yours has the flat belt pulley system, then I suspect you also have a table vertical crank ("Elevating Crank Shaft") that is directly under the shaper (and needs a hole through the bench) as does mine. The Delta version had a right-angle bevel-gear takeoff so that the vertical table crank could be above bench level and come out the right side of the shaper base (right side as seen from the front, table end). This is the Delta official viewpoint to name Left and Right when describing the machine. Other than those differences, the Delta manuals apply admirably. Including the admonition for the motor as viewed from the left side to be turning counter-clockwise (the top of the bull gear to be turning towards the front of the machine). As received, a prior owner had set mine to run backwards. This matter has been well discussed in the shaper group here. The 6 Inch versus 7 Inch difference in name had little to do with actual stroke length which is just over 7 inches; AMMCO was just being more conservative in its name. Through the kindness of someone else in the group I have two variants of the Delta machine's 27-100 Instruction Manual PM-1737. The first calls the machine the Delta-Milwaukee 7" Precision Shaper (from the Delta-Milwaukee Machine Tools Co.) and is 14 pages dated 20 Oct 1950. The second calls it the Delta Shaper (from the Delta-Rockwell Power Tools Co.) and is 16 pages, revised date 20 Dec 1955. If you wish to save John some ocean postage, I will gladly send you both versions gratis. Just send me your snail address by e-mail message off-group. Incidentally, you will get some other useful shaper leads if you visit my website (totally private and non-commercial). Steve in Thunder Bay, Ontario http://www.janellestudio.com/metal/ ------- Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 08:09:35 -0000 From: "dreilanderecht" Subject: Ammco Vice Well Art, I finally found the time to download and install the viewer and now have a printout. Trouble is being me I look at it and think I could improve the design! So do I want a reasonably original looking one or do I want the best I can make....I guess there are more urgent things to do anyway for the moment, but I might make up a pattern for the main body, which is the only part that really needs a casting, the rest can come from continuous cast bar or steel stock as necessary. I have some patterns nearly ready to send to the foundry soon so one more wouldn't hurt. regards John ------- NOTE TO FILE: This is becoming a casting story, so it continues in the text file "Casting Metal". Yes this is for an AMMCO but the information discussed in the Casting Metal file will be useful to the owners of many other machines. ------- Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 19:26:38 -0000 From: "Art Volz" Subject: AMMCO Serial Number. Was:Re: OOPs,Forgot Rick-- I don't have a serial number list for the AMMCO shaper. But, if AMMCO used methods similar to some other contemporary manufacturers, your serial number could possibly be interpreted as follows. The "SH" most likely stands for "SH"aper. The following numerals-- 264610--could be interpreted several different ways. Identified by ID plate as a "6-inch", I would tend to think of your AMMCO as "earlier" rather than "later" and, of about, the WWII or immediately thereafter era. Now let's look at the linear number stream. "1926"--"26"--is probably too early and "1964", or "64" the next number set in line, is most likely too late as is the set following the next one, "61" or "1961". "1946"--"46"--feels right. Your AMMCO has the "feel" of a 1946 machine. Now, what do the other numbers mean; I have no idea what the "Serial Number Magicians" at these old companies were thinking about, as if they could think, when they contrived such silly numbering conventions. Perhaps the "6" preceeding the "46" means "June", and then your date of manufacture might be "June 1946". And, then again, it might not be. Now that you possibly might know the date of manufacture, what is its significance? Since parts aren't available from the OEM or his/her successor and the only operators/parts manual I've ever seen is when the AMMCO was badged a Delta, I don't think that the serial number has ANY importance, unless you use it as a benchmark for determining your age in either plus or minus increments. I've been known to do that: I'm younger than my Logan/MW 10x24 but, older than my Lewis, Benchmaster and Barker horizontal mills. Still, to me at least, insignifcant...and irrelevant. If armed with that information as to machine birthdate, we could then go to our local paint store and order: "I'd like a gallon of June 1946 grey/gray machine tool enamel, please, the flavor that was then being spread in Chicago." Well, maybe. Thinking about paint. I wouldn't paint diddly-squat on your shaper. Now, the original paint job--although worn with honest age--is authentic. But, some of us have "paint fetishes" that, seemingly are totally consuming. If you do paint, carefully remove all of the data plates via their pins, so you don't slobber paint on them as most obsessed "paint fanatics" do. I've seen good machines destroyed by painting, especially if the fanatic also feels he has to take the machine all apart and "fix" it. The machine usually is "fixed" and, like a nutered pet, it is forever. If you do anything, whatsoever, to that side access door with it's extremely good condition "AMMCO" logo decal, you also need to be "fixed" by a "paint fanatic": maybe 10 coats of never-dry red lead would be appropriate...and immediately prior to tossing yourself (maybe with lots of help) to the waves off of the "Golden Gate". If you could digitally record a high quality PIC of your AMMCO side door decal, and annotate it with dimensions, you would make yourself a true modern day hero amongst your fellow AMMCO owing breathern, whose own side doors have long lost their original decals, either scraped and damaged to points of non-recognition, or painted over by lunatics armed with a $1.87 spray can of Wallies machine grey/gray. Paint fanatics sniff paint!!! Art (Houston--The Richport of the South West) ------- Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 22:46:22 -0000 From: "dreilanderecht" Subject: AMMCO Serial Number. Sorry Art, but I don't think that your cunning and ingenious interpretation of the Ammco serial number will fly. The reason is that when I look at mine, for a machine that must be of similar vintage, It has 52 in that digit three and digit four position. So 1952 is possible maybe, except that my machine only has five digits, not six, in the whole number. I suspect that this means that it is older than Richards. Unless of course, the last one or two digits is the month of production, making mine January and Richards November. But I think that it is more likely that they would put the relatively fixed information like the year and month at the start of the number and the sequential number part at the end. This makes numbers that sort sensibly, eg the high numbers were made later, even if the number does not correspond to the number of machines actually made in a year. Actually, I have this little suspicion about my Ammco....American machine tools have never been all that common in New Zealand, due to Imperial loyalist feelings about buying from those rebellious colonies and so on, as well as exchange rate considerations. But one time when a lot of American equipment would have come into the country would have been during WWII. A lot of Marines and GI's were based here for training before the invasions up in the islands, so there were base facilities and workshops, fighter squadrons with Mustangs and so on. It is possible, though not provable, that my little Ammco came in as part of the base equipment for some American unit, and was written off or otherwise escaped at the end of the war. Much equipment was scrapped at that time, some because that was the terms of the supply contracts, but it was apparently possible to get something "scrapped" in your direction if you knew the right person, especially if you had a bottle of whisky. Actually the American troops had a reputation for being extraordinarily generous. My Dad used to tell of giving a couple of American soldiers a ride on the footplate of a locomotive once. One of them had a .45 revolver at his hip, so having not seen such a thing before Dad asked if he could have a look. No problem, but when he went to give it back the guy said "keep it"! Under NZ law, it is very difficult to get permission to own a handgun, so Dad had to persuade the guy to take it back.... Looking at the paint, as I said earlier mine is green, but where it is chipped it appears that there is a thin layer of grey underneath. So I suppose that could be the factory paint underneath, or it could be just a grey primer. I don't know if there would be a nice transfer like that lurking under the paint of my door, since I don't know where the door is. Never came with one. Oh well. regards John ------- Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 10:37:12 -0000 From: "dreilanderecht" Subject: Re: AMMCO Serial Number, more Having left the bit of cardboard I had written the number on at home...my actual number is SH41522. So it doesn't end in one but in two. Still leaves us with no real clues as to what it means, if anything. It would be tempting to think that the first digit was 41 for 1941, but that doesn't fit with Richards number. Maybe they were just a straight sequential number? I wonder how many of them they made??? Probably not that many I would guess. Although I suppose that if you take a population of say 100 million people, then take a wild stab and say that for every thousand people, there would be a garage, or a small industrial plant, or a school workshop that would have had a shaper. That would make a total market for 100,000 shapers, not all the same type of course. On the thread about reproducing a shaper now, wouldn't the thing be to import one of those ones the Chinese still make? I guess you would have to import a container load at least, and they might be a bit big for the ordinary home shop. regards John ------- Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 08:50:07 -0700 (PDT) From: J R Slack Subject: Re: AMMCO Serial Number. Just to further muddy the waters: My AAMCO 7" Shaper bears the serial number SH954271. It bears a War Production Board plaque, and the original paint is green (almost OD, actually). A stenciled marking underneath the (original) on/off switch says "June 1945", which pretty well establishes its provenance as a WWII machine. I agree with John that his gray underneath is probably primer; but I'm not going to chip the paint on mine to find out! Regards, Jack ------- Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 16:04:26 -0400 From: "S or J" Subject: Re: AMMCO Serial Number, more Hi John, and other AMMCO people. Your speculation on serial numbers made me go down and check mine. Incidentally, this one didn't have a door when I got it and shows no obvious sign of paint wear from putting the door on and off. I suspect the reason so many are missing doors is that it was an inconvenience to keep putting them on in a busy shop, so they got left off. When the machine changed owners, the door's location was long forgotten (as were many belt guards). The round door was also an attractive size to be incorporated into a lathe faceplate or other shop fixture, or fit in Art's pocket as a souvenir when he visits absolutely every shop in North America on his door-hunting expeditions :-) This one has a data plate that says: SERIAL NUMBER SH1111031 AMMCO 6" SHAPER. This is the model with the table elevation crank under the machine base (needing a hole in the workbench), and with a 3-speed flat belt pulley, and the original motor-pulley unit designed to be mounted separately to the bench behind the machine (as opposed to a more vertical motor-v-belt-pulley-unit mounted on the bench closer behind the shaper body as in later AMMCO and Delta-Milwaukee/Rockwell 7" designated variants.) Since this machine has characteristics that predate the Deltas of the early 1950's, yet the serial number is much longer than John's, the mystery of a logical date code deepens. Such a code would be even more complex if there were type 1 or 2 or more variants, and that went into the serial number also. I would be happy to do an off-group survey of the AMMCO serial numbers and main shaper characteristics, and report back to the group with the consolidated results in about 2 weeks. Please send a brief message to jstudiox~xxtbaytel.net with the following details filled in for your AMMCO: SERIAL NUMBER: ----------- Plate identifies as AMMCO 6" --- or AMMCO 7" --- Table elevation crank is under bench --- or out right side above bench --- Pulley on right side of shaper for a 3-speed flat belt --- or for a 4-speed v-belt --- or for some other --------- (as originally, not a conversion) What appears to be the original paint color? ---------- Dark/light? ----- regards Steve in Thunder Bay, Ontario http://www.janellestudio.com/metal/ ------- NOTE TO FILE: The prior thread on divining the date code of AMMCO shapers from their serial numbers continues here. That thread broke off into a more general manufacturing one, which can be found in the text file "Shaper History and Stories". ------- Date: Thu, 01 May 2003 20:05:12 -0000 From: "dreilanderecht" Subject: Re: Ammco shaper In Metal_Shapersx~xxyahoogroups.com, "cantstop47" wrote: > Why did you not post my question on how much is a ammco 6" shaper > worth? Thanks! Well it was posted, although I see nobody has tried to answer it yet. That may be because there is no easy answer. It will depend on what sort of condition it is in, where you are, and how good a negotiator you are. Best thing would be to check a few of the more recent auctions on Ebay and see if you can find out how much they went for. I don't know how long Ebay keeps finished auction results available. I could give my own guess, but probably one of the US based list members would have a better idea than I would, presuming of course that you want US prices. regards John ------- Date: Fri, 09 May 2003 17:36:52 -0000 From: "Art Volz" Subject: Re: AMMCO Serial Number, more (Help Please) > On 30 April I posted a help request to this group for input > into a survey of the AMMCO serial numbers and main shaper > characteristics. Replies were to be off-group to my > e-mail address jstudiox~xxt... and I would report back > to the group with the consolidated results in about 2 weeks. > Now there are two possible deductions that we can draw from > results so far (about half-way through the report period): > a. If the three people who replied so far (and received individual > confirmation, so they know who they are) and I are the only > owners of AMMCO shapers in the whole universe, then recent > guesses as to the worth of an AMMCO have to be revised > upwards from a few hundred dollars to many million $ apiece. > By heavens, the four of us are filthy rich and will celebrate at > John's new giant-castle/shaper-manufacturing-factory/brewery > in New Zealand! > or > b. Some of you have not yet replied, so: > Please send a brief message to jstudiox~xxt... with the following > details filled in for your AMMCO (and any other comments): > [SNIP - REPEAT OF EARLIER SURVEY QUESTIONS] Steve-- You don't get it! John has sent all anticipated respondents to your enquiry pleas plans for his "NZ-33-Sudz" (ex Czech Europa) MINI home- brewery. When you've got sudz...hell with the AMMCO!! (Have you ever been to Chicago???) :-) Art (Houston North: gone for the weekend trekking to Austin and back.) ------- Date: Sun, 18 May 2003 15:30:57 -0000 From: "dave_heinlein" Subject: Ammco Shaper part quest Hi all, I found this site through an aquaintance at the OWWM site, which I am a member of. Anyway, a machinist/machine collector buddy of mine is looking for a part for his Ammco 7" shaper ser.# SH-232677(which would pre-date many of the numbers I have seen here so far). He is looking for a "bull gear"(don't ask me, I'm a woodworker) to make his machine operate. Is there one out there to be had? If so, please contact me at heinleinwoodworksx~xxhvc.rr.com By the way, we are located in upstate NY, USA Thanks much, Dave Heinlein ------- Date: Sun, 18 May 2003 18:35:45 -0000 From: "Art Volz" Subject: Like Golden Goose Eggs--Re: Ammco Shaper part quest Dave-- There are absolutely NO new parts available for the AMMCO/Delta/Rockwell shaper. Can your friend tell us directly--is he online--about the condition of his current bull gear? Sometimes they are fixable...many times they are not. There are several ways to get a useable bull gear. One way is to have a new one made by a competent gear maker = expensive. Another way is to find someone parting-out an AMMCO who has a good (all the teeth) bull gear for sale. To find that for-sale bull gear will be quite a quest: after asking used machinery dealers, putting a want-ad into "Home Shop Machinist" magazine, and religiously (every day) searching eBay, the only REAL method is closing one's eyes real tight...and wishing with all one's might. Sometimes that method works for me...when I'm questing for shaper doors :-) An alternative fix would be to ascertain whether a new pinion and large gear set, from off-the-shelf sources such as Boston Gear, could be fitted. Another possibility would be to also see if the gears could be replaced with a suitable chain and sprocket set. Of course there's the other solution. Have your friend buy another shaper that he likes...at a price he wants to pay...that is fully operational. Then sell his current AMMCO either as-is or parted-out to "frenzied feeding parts predators" on eBay. (BTW, I'd like to buy his AMMCO side access door...if it still has the AMMCO red decal logo in pristine condition. :-) ) Art (Houston) ------- Date: Sun, 18 May 2003 20:28:13 -0000 From: "dreilanderecht" Subject: Re: Ammco Shaper part quest As Art implies, the only place you are likely to find an Ammco bull gear is in another Ammco. All is not lost however, they can sometimes be repaired or alternatively a new one could be made if necessary. Note that the original is made of synthetic resin bonded fibre, or SRBF as it is sometimes known. If there are only a few teeth damaged, you can cut them out and glue in a replacement piece. I seem to recall we had some correspondence here about doing this some time back, I beleive the job was successful. If too much is gone, then a suitable gear could be cut from another piece of SRBF, or even another material like cast iron. This would require the use of dividing equipment and a working shaper or mill, but would not be too much trouble to go to for a machine like this. I think this would actually be less trouble than fitting another type of drive. If you decide to "part it", I'll take the automatic feed parts! :) regards John ------- Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 10:45:27 -0000 From: "dreilanderecht" Subject: Re: Ammco Bull gear Some preliminary measurements...not enough to make one, but you can at least start looking for the blank and thinking about the machining... Diameter 6.125" Thickness .568" (maybe 9/16 nominal) Number of teeth 96 bore 2.008" (probably an easy fit overa two inch shaft) Both sides are recessed. Thje slide side is recessed 2.941" diameter .125 deep. (2 and 15/16) The shaft side is recessed 3.25 by .99" deep. (maybe 3/32 nominally) The gear is cut helically, I will check the angle but it seems to be about twenty degrees or so. This will complicate the cutting a little. Mine has visible wear on the driven face, but I should be able to get a reasonable figure for pressure angle from the less worn side I hope. It doesn't look too bad for 50+ years old, maybe 60. Well, it still has all its own teeth, which not everyone does by that age. regards John ------- Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 06:54:11 -0700 From: Keith Green Subject: Re: Re: Ammco Bull gear Since it's helical, you probably won't get a chordal measurement across the pitch circle. The pin measurement thing doesn't usually do much good here either, though it all depends on the helix angle. Crude way of doing it would be to ink the tips of the teeth and roll the gear along a line on a piece of paper. Measure the angle from the line. Being 50+ years old, the pressure angle will almost surely be 14.5 deg. as was the standard back then. keith. ------- Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 11:43:03 -0400 From: "S or J" Subject: AMMCO Shaper Survey Results Hi folks, First I would like to sincerely thank those members who took the time to respond to a survey of the serial numbers and main characteristics of the AMMCO shapers in our possession. Made two appeals to the group but only got six other submissions.. Although we barely met the number of items regarded as a minimum for a small sample to have any statistical significance, some design trends were still evident. Here are the results and perhaps we can add to the data over time. The data are grouped by AMMCO-plated size (6" or 7") and then ordered within those groups by serial number. [NOTE TO FILE: Indeed more members have replied since and the consolidated results were moved to near the start of this file to make life easier.] Color varies widely. Many report that there is a grey (gray) undercoat or possibly first color. Looked very hard at mine and could not positively identify a grey undercoat in chipped paint areas or where I scraped it. Both 6" models share common early characteristics of 3 Speed Flat Belt pulleys, elevation crank below bench, and original separate motor/pulley unit on bench behind the shaper. All 7" labelled models have the newer design elevation crank out the right side of the shaper casting, and a 4 Speed V-belt pulley system. ANOMALY: one 6" shaper's serial number is higher than most 7" shapers reported here. (It's mine so I know the number reported is correct.) This anomaly supports at least two possible theories: a.) a simple serial number system for the 7" starting somewhere within the existing 6" number range; or b.) at least some serial numbers include some sort of date code or manufacturing model/batch code and thus all the digits in the serial number are not indicative of simple sequential manufacturing. We do not have any definitive dates of manufacture. The first 6" has a reckoned age likely between 50 and 60 years, but we would need some original documentation to compare a date with a serial number in order to have a better shot at positively proving the code. Yet within the samples here, a couple of 7" shapers differ numerically by only the last two digits: SH965179 and SH965192. If the last three digits are really production numbering, they were produced just 13 units apart. In which case, the first digits of 965 could be September 1965. Applying the same theory to the fourth 7" SH1065291 gives Oct 1965. Applying that theory to the first listed 7" SH264610 could give Feb 1964, but that interpretation suggests a pretty large production schedule of at least 610 units in one month? This theory definitely falls apart on the last 7" SH1222446 which gives no logical year in the first few digits and this unit has the newer motor mount similar to those used by Deltas. Trying to look for years elsewhere in the number that gives a system consistent across all shapers here (and then even throwing in days of the month) has just made my head hurt. Found no easy answer to a date code theory. Perhaps someone else will see an answer. (But I would not like to see this expand into a thread which dragged on too much.) Someday we might find some old bills of sale or a factory document that solves it. So, if there is a code hidden in the serial number, it still remains a mystery to be deeply pondered over New Zealand Sudz whenever two or more AMMCOites chance upon the same watering hole. (We could have identified ourselves to one another in public by wearing an AMMCO shaper door as a belt buckle. Unfortunately most of ours have been appropriated to a door collection in Texas so huge that compasses within several miles all point at a single house instead of North. ;-) Thanks again fellows, Steve doorless ... in Thunder Bay, Ontario http://www.janellestudio.com/metal/ COMPLETED SURVEY RESULTS WERE MOVED TO THE BEGINNING OF THIS FILE, ALONG WITH SOME OTHER MACHINES REPORTED AFTER THE SURVEY ------- Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 18:39:36 -0000 From: "Art Volz" Subject: Re: AMMCO Shaper Survey Results Steve-- The belt buckle idea is not a bad one, except that here in Houston they would probably be too small and not high-chromed enuf to wear to the annual Rodeo. But, they could be chromed and enlarged in size...and even identified, on the inside, with the AMMO-ite's personnel serial number. You're right about the magnetic properties of my mound of iron doors. Had a visit from the Coast Guard & Homeland Security fellas the other day--seems I'm deflecting the compass needles on steamers in channel bound for the Port of Houston. They thought I might be an Ali-Baba Terr, or such. At least Logan cast their doors from "non-magnetic 8-electron aluminum". Will have to collect more Logan doors, I guess, to de- gausse the ferrous ones. Art ------- Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 16:19:18 -0400 From: "S or J" Subject: Re: AMMCO Shaper Survey Results Original Message ----- From: "Rich Klopp" To: Sent: Friday, May 23, 2003 11:58 AM Subject: More AMMCO results for survey > SERIAL NUMBER: SH1222401 > Plate identifies as AMMCO 7" > Table elevation crank is out right side above bench > Pulley on right side of shaper for a 4-speed v-belt. The original > died of cancer (cracked shortly after I got it, so I turned > a new one from solid 6061) > Motor and its pulleys on separate original unit > What appears to be the original paint color? Gray (Dark) > Has a tag on right side behind elevation crank: > "This machine conforms to orders of the War Production Board" > It allegedly came out of a Nike missile battery mobile machine shop > trailer, which would date it to the 50s I think. I don't know when > the War Production Board ceased tagging machines. > It has the rotary index table, vise, big and small keyway cutter > bars, original light (broken hood), and motor (on its last legs). > The door was missing, so I turned a new one from 6061 plate. The > machine is in overall good condition. Hi Folks, and a copy to Rich Murphy's law says finalize a survey and mail it to the group and then be guaranteed to get another entry within 24 hours. Rich I do truly appreciate your submission, particularly because it may provide a clue to when the AMMCO 7" version converted its motor mounting. Bit by bit we will accumulate data, and I will maintain a consolidated list of serial numbers. This list will also be posted in the AMMCO shaper file on my site after 01 June and kept updated about every month. (E-mail addresses in that site's files are coded to prevent spam-robot address harvesting and thus protect our members.) Steve in Thunder Bay, Ontario http://www.janellestudio.com/metal/ Machining and Metalworking at Home ------- Date: Sat, 24 May 2003 06:58:31 -0000 From: "markhubler" Subject: Dividing plates for AMMCO/Delta Index Centers I just picked up an AMMCO/Delta Index Centers and wondered if the dividing plates are some "standard" size, or do I need to make my own from scratch? I have the one that comes with the Index Center (i.e. 30 and 36), but I see in the manual that an optional 28 - 48 plate was also available. Has anyone adapted a gear setup to one of theses for more choices of divisions? ------- Date: Sat, 24 May 2003 10:10:14 -0400 From: "Rigrac" Subject: Re: Dividing plates for AMMCO/Delta Index Centers Mark : Do not see why you couldn't make own plates for Dividing Head using plate already there as pattern for size. I would however think it would be best if holes in plate were done on an N.C. machine (either N.C. Drill or N.C. Mill or N.C. Boring Mill) as holes would have to perfectly placed to ensure dividing functions created by them were dead accurate. Ron ------- Date: Sat, 24 May 2003 15:16:55 -0400 From: Alex Barrie Subject: 7 inch shaper bench height I am in the process of making a bench for my Ammco 7 inch shaper and was wondering what the height for the top of it should be? what is the height of the factory stand? it would be appreciated if any of you guys with a 7 inch shaper would fill me in on the factory stand height (South Bend, Atlas, Ammco, etc) much appreciated, Alex 1965 Myford ML7 1992 9 x33 Mill/ Drill War Era Ammco 7 shaper ------- Date: Sat, 24 May 2003 13:43:18 -0700 From: "larry g" Subject: Re: 7 inch shaper bench height In my opinion you should have the ram just about chest height. That's about the right height to have a hand on the slide for those manual vertical cuts. Adjust the height to your personal needs. lg no neat sig line ------- Date: Sat, 24 May 2003 23:03:19 -0000 From: "al_messer" Subject: Re: 7 inch shaper bench height Alex, I made my bench 8 feet long, 2 feet wide and 36-1/4" inches high and this height seems to work O.K. as far as having a hand on the down-feed crank. It is framed from 2 x 8's and the top is doubled 3/4" plywood. I went to a restaurant supply place and bought an old "sheet pan" to go under the Shaper to catch the excess oil and chips. One thing a lot of folks don't think about when building a bench is height vs. back troubles. Example: my kitchen sink counter is just about 2 inches too low for my wife or myself to stand and wash dishes for any length of time as we unconsciously slump down to reach the dishes and after a bit, our lower backs are killing us. My work benches in the shop, however, are at a level where I can stand in front of the vise and file away without my back hurting. An older machinist told me that the comfortable height for a workbench was measuring by holding your elbows at your sides and extending your hands outward and whatever the height of your forearms when held level, that was the proper height for YOUR bench. Hope this helps. Al ------- Date: Sat, 24 May 2003 19:52:36 EDT From: RIBuhitex~xxaol.com Subject: Re: 7 inch shaper bench height Alex, my AMMCO came with a stand that was not orig. It was made of welded angle iron.(2x2) It is 35.5 inches from floor to bottom of the shaper, 35inches long by 23 inches across at the bottom (floor) and 28x16 at the top. It has a shelf 10 inches up from the floor and 2 cross pieces at the top near the back of the shaper for support of the shaper and the motor. The underside of the shaper is exposed but I plan to add a catch pan under it that is removable for cleaning. This puts the cutter / work part at about 48 inches high. Wish I could send a sketch / picture of it but I am not yet able to do this. Hope this is of some help. If you need any more dim.s just e-mail me. Rick ------- Date: Sat, 24 May 2003 22:36:39 -0500 From: "Mario L Vitale" Subject: Re: 7 inch shaper bench height Alex, I understand the desire to make things as close to original as you can, but for the height of the stand you probably ought to consider what a comfortable working height would be for YOU. Mario ------- Date: Sun, 25 May 2003 06:16:46 -0000 From: "markhubler" Subject: Re: 7 inch shaper bench height You can see a picture of the factory Delta stand at the following: http://www.oldwwmachines.com/delta/1956Catalog.asp Download the "Metal Shaper" file. The is a page out of the 1956 Delta Catalog. The factory bench is 32" tall, 22" wide and 36" long. There is a much better drawing is the manual. The factory stand was portable (had wheel on the back legs that would touch the ground when you tilted up the front). The stand has a single drawer and two cupboards. Nothing really special about the cabinet, just a wood frame with a cabinet incorporated into it. ------- Date: Tue, 27 May 2003 13:43:18 -0000 From: "Pat Bearss" Subject: Bench Height I just finished making a tool post for my Shape-Rite 8"and fired it up for the first time. I hadn't run a shaper in 36 years. The first project is to make a support base for the table. Dick Streff sent me some pictures of his and I started shaping the support out of a 7- 1/4" x 2-1/2" x 2" block of steel. This brings me to the subject of this post - Bench Height. I have my 8" shaper mounted on a roll around base 16" high. It was the base off an old plotter. The great thing is that I can sit in my shop chair and easily make depth adjustments and change feed directions. Pat Bearss ------- Date: Tue, 27 May 2003 21:03:23 -0000 From: "dreilanderecht" Subject: Re: Ammco Bull gear More on the Ammco bull gear... The helix angle is twenty degrees, at least to within the limits that I have been able to measure it by "inking" it with grease and making an impression on paper. My gear is quite well worn, so I might find myself making one sometime. On the other hand, it has taken fifty years or so to wear as much as it has, so maybe it will see me out. I've also measured the depth of the teeth, which is 0.128". This should be useful to confirm that the tooth profile chosen is correct. I don't think I can make a measurement of the pressure angle, but it seems 14.5 degrees would be the figure to use. The only dimension that I haven't provided now is the spacing ofthe four threaded inserts, but it would be better to take these from the shaft which they must fit. regards John -------- Date: Tue, 27 May 2003 17:17:05 -0700 From: Keith Green Subject: Re: Re: Ammco Bull gear 20 deg. right or left? (/// is right). keith ------- Date: Wed, 28 May 2003 01:29:26 -0000 From: "dreilanderecht" Subject: Re: Ammco Bull gear I suppose that does make a difference :) OK, I actually have the piece of paper that I did the imprint on here with me at work, that has the pattern //// so I guess the gear is the opposite. That makes sense to me since it would put the side thrust towards the bullshaft side of the machine. I haven't thought much about cutting helical gears, but I guess you would need special cutters that are narrower than for the same module as a straight tooth. regards John ------- Date: Tue, 27 May 2003 20:24:11 -0700 From: Keith Green Subject: Re: Re: Ammco Bull gear Can't picture right now whether the print would be opposite. Just lay the gear on it's side and see which way the teeth tilt; up to the right is right, up to the left is left. The hobbing machines at work have the gear laying horizontal. You gear the thing up for straight spur gears so that that the table rotates at a rate to complement the downfeed which allows the teeth to come out straight. There are ratios to increase or decrease the rotation-to-downfeed rate to produce a helical gear. The thickness problem (clearance) is solved by tilting the head so the hob teeth pass through the gear blank at 90 deg. to the teeth being cut. On a single-cutter machine of milling machine/dividing-head setup, you would have to rotate the dividing head on the table and clamp it 20 deg. off the normal axis. also, I think you'd have to gear it up to the table so that it rotated a little for each tooth so the tooth gets cut helically around the blank instead of diagonally across the edge. Easiest way to visualize this stuff is to carry it to an extreme; say a gear with a helix of 70 deg. What would that setup have to look like? See? The helix angle has no effect on the other gear information nor on the time it will take to cut it. There should be enough here now for the gear-cutting guys at work to work their math-magic and figure out the rest. When I get that I'll post some preliminary drawings in the files section. I'll need the angle to be correct before then though. Thanks. keith. ------- Date: Wed, 28 May 2003 03:50:29 -0000 From: "dreilanderecht" Subject: Re: Ammco Bull gear Aaah but the gear is about ten miles away right now..when I get home I can look. But it will be opposite, same as if you plonk your oily hand on a white sheet of paper and then compare the hand to the print. But anyway, once I get home I can take a picture with my phone and post it on the pictures site, always reassuring to have a picture however low res. The other thing that occurs to me is to get guys with later models Ammcos to take a look, I doubt if they changed the gear in later models but it would be really annoying to find that you have made one that fits my machine and nobody elses. Well, I would be happy to have a spare, and if you plan to set up and make several I will certainly buy one as insurance. (Nothing ever breaks if you have a spare. Corollary...if you buy a junker car for spares, all the ones you ever need from it are already broken.) I don't think they would need to take the gear out like I did, just see if they can manage to confirm the number of teeth and maybe get a rough diameter measurement to see if that is close enough to the same. regards John ------- Date: Wed, 28 May 2003 10:34:14 -0000 From: "dreilanderecht" Subject: Re: Ammco Bull gear OK the photos from the little digital cam in the phone are not really good enough, can't distinguish dark teeth against a dark gear, so you will just have to take my word for it that they slope upwards to the left like \\\\ or if you like they run from north west to south east when the gear is lying flat on the table in front of you. regards John ------- Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2003 09:29:02 -0000 From: "Keith Green" Subject: Ammco phenolic gear information Given some supplied measurements, the gear cutter in my shop came up with the following information regarding the helical bull gear in the Ammco shaper. 6.125 outside diameter .568 face width 96 teeth 2.008 bore 1 side has a recess 2.941 dia. x .125 deep 1 side recessed 3.25 dia x .99 deep 20 deg. helix angle (can't remember if it's right or left) .128 whole depth 14-1/2 deg pressure angle (probable, based on age) 17 Diametral Pitch [NOTE TO FILE: WRONG -- SEE NEXT MSG.] The DP was calculated from the rest of the information. 17 DP is an oddball size so if anyone has further information which might change this number, please speak up. keith ------- Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2003 17:01:05 -0000 From: "joe mama" Subject: Re: Ammco phenolic gear information keith, using the formula: OD = (N + 2)/DP and solving for DP = 98/6.125 = 16. HTH. joe ------- Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2003 20:23:46 -0700 From: "keith green" Subject: Re: Re: Ammco phenolic gear information You're right. Didn't even check it after he told me. Sorry 'bout that. keith. ------- Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2003 04:22:19 -0400 From: "STEPHEN THOMPSON" Subject: Ammco 7" Shaper Value I just purchased an Ammco 7" Shaper on its original wooded cabinet. It is in extremely good original condition and has not been painted. No rust of any kind. All ways are very tight with no backlash on anything. I paid $600.00 for this machine yesterday. Did I get screwed? Also, I need a manual on this unit. The Serial Number is SHA64841. Does anyone know when it was manufactured? I am a lathe guy and this is my first shaper of this size. Thanks Aloha, Steve Thompson ------- NOTE TO FILE: serial number unlikely valid as is. No serial number has been reported starting with 3 letters. ------- Date: Thu, 03 Jul 2003 22:08:16 -0000 From: "Peter Verbree" Subject: Re: Ammco 7" Shaper Value Seems to be about average price for a machine of that type. Did you get the vise? Any tool holders? These Items are hard to find seperately and increase the value of the machine considerably. Have fun!! Cheers Pete ------- Date: Thu, 03 Jul 2003 23:13:29 -0000 From: "dreilanderecht" Subject: Re: Ammco 7" Shaper Value You will see if you look back a few weeks that we had a little survey of Ammco serial numbers. We didn't manage to figure out how to get a date out of them...it may not even be encoded in there...but most of them had six digits. Mine, and now yours, are the only ones known with only five. The guess is that this makes it an older machine, so the question now is does it have the table height screw under the bench? (the later machines have bevel gears and the adjustment at the side.) Also does it have the separate motor unit mounted on the bench with a flat belt drive? These seem to be characteristics of the earlier machines. Also, are the holes in your table tapped? The later machines have provision for the table to run off the cross feed screw before reaching the end of travel, but mine does not. Does the label on the machine actually say seven inches or six inches? It does sound like a good machine, not being in the USA myself I'm not ideally placed to comment on prices. I hope you do have the vice, although Art has posted a file here with the drawing so you can easily provide yourself with a quite authentic one. Well, maybe not easily, but not impossible. I have a pattern for the vice base casting with a local foundry at the moment, and we may arrange later for the pattern to be sent somewhere in the USA to make some there, as the transpacific postage for a heavy item like the actual casting might be a bit much. Do you have the original door? With the original transfer? If you do just remember to keep it out of Art's reach...:) Toolholders are not too much of a problem, you can make these yourself. There are two manuals, you really want both since they don't cover quite the same ground. If you can get someone closer to you to post one it will save time but if all else fails I can copy them and drop them in the post. Not that you necessarily need the manuals, but it is good to have as much info as possible. You will find the odd bit of info in the files here to help you get started. The older books on machine shop practice also often have useful chapters. regards John Auckland, New Zealand ------- Date: Fri, 04 Jul 2003 22:30:16 -0000 From: "dreilanderecht" Subject: Re: Ammco 7" Shaper Value --- In Metal_Shapersx~xxyahoogroups.com, "STEPHEN THOMPSON" wrote: >> Thanks for the feedback. It does have the vice and one tool holder. There is also another vice that was with it but don't know if it goes with the shaper or not. It looks more like a milling attachment for a lathe with a micrometer dial. << It wouldn't happen to be a vertical slide with a small vice for milling in the lathe would it? That can be a very handy thing to have, because, much as we shaper enthusiasts would hate to admit it, shapers are not very good at milling pockets. So if you don't happen to have a vertical mill, a vertical slide for the lathe would be quite a handy thing to have. Of course, if what you have is just the vice part, your shaper is just the thing to make the dovetail slides for the rest of it. It does indeed sound like you have picked up a nice machine. Hope you get a lot of pleasure out of it. regards John ------- Date: Mon, 07 Jul 2003 13:51:23 -0000 From: "wc10662000" Subject: Ammco 7" Shaper data Everyone, as suggested by a member I am posting my Ammco Shaper data. Larry Fitzmorris [Larry's data is in the survey section at start of this file.] ------- Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2003 22:35:28 -0000 From: "Matt" Subject: New guy new ammco shaper Hello all, I'm new to this board, and new to metal shapers. I have a varied and sorted background in wood working and metal working. I am currently a technology education teacher, but my first career was in the repair of musical instruments. I have a pretty good knowledge of the use of hand tools, turning on a metal lathe and milling, but I've only read about shapers. I wanted a shaper for a variety of reasons one of which was making dove tails. On a recent trip to OH, I aquired a 7" Ammco shaper ser# 554010. It has all of the guards, and what looks to be an original vise. It has the table support on the front of the table. The motor mounts seperately on a 4 bolt flange behind the main body of the shaper. The side cover on the main body is missing, but a kind person on the home shop machinist BBS is supposed to send me some pictures so I can replicate it. He is also supposed to send a copy of the manual for this machine too. I can't wait! Rather than ask information of you all, I'd like to share a bit of info I found after I bought my shaper. In an old set of books I have at home called "Modern Machine Shop Practices" Vol 3 Copyright 1943 by National schools. I came across an entire section on how to setup a shaper, grind tool bits, make dove tails, and much more. If you come across a set of these at a school auction or flea market don't pass them up, they contain a wealth of info. Regards, Matt ------- Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2003 23:22:44 -0000 From: "ammcoman2003" Subject: Proud new owner of an Ammco Shaper Hello to all of you. I have just picked a 6" Ammco shaper from a fellow member of our modeller's group. It has the serial number SH-1111019 and the table is raised by a screw accessed from below the base. I also received from the seller a copy of the Instructions and Parts Price List which pertains to those units starting with serial number SH-1111500 The date at the bottom left of the front page is Dec 1941. In the drawings the raising crank comes out on the side via a bevel gear. So mine might one of the last batch using the "under" crank. This may be of some help to those working out the date code system. At my former workplace making overload protectors for electric motors we used a single digit in the date code for the year so this may be the case for Ammco. I look forward to seeing further info on this subject and, being a newby to shapers, the great amount of really valuable information posted on this group site. Cheers, Geoff Kingma Toronto ------- Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2003 08:15:34 +0000 From: mariol.vitalex~xxatt.net Subject: Re: Re: Still looking for Ammco bull gear Art, Dave, I am always for trying something that sounds like a longshot... especially when you don't have any better alternatives and it doesn't take much effort....BUT, in this case, I'm afraid chances are pretty slim. About three years ago, Pentair Corporation (the holding company that bought both Porter-Cable, and Delta Tools) decided, in their infinite wisdom to bring the customer service organizations together in one location. In theory this did make sense....it was in the execution that all went awry. . It seems the Delta Tools customer service had been in Pittsburgh for over forty years, and it was staffed with folks who had worked there for twenty plus years. And just as Art suspected, you regularly heard customr service requests like this... Customer: I have an old Delta band saw and I need new tires for the wheels. Do you have them in stock? Delta: Is the blade tensioning knob round polished aluminum or is it a lobed cast iron knob? Customer: Uh...cast iron. Delta: That's a model# xxxx-3b and we have about four sets of tires in stock, and oh, by the way, the oilite bushing on the upper wheel usually get's worn and causes problems with the belt tracking. We have those in stock as well. Would you like to order one of them too? On the other hand, Porter-Cable was in a brand new facility in Jackson Tennesse and had a big half empty wharehouse with lots of enthusiastic new employees. Guess who moved!?!? Not only that, they simply, one day, told everyone in Pittsburgh that the company was moving to Tenessee in xx months, and oh, by the way, if you wanted to move to Tenn. you could. As you can imagine, when the spare parts inventory arrived in Tenn. (packed by the soon to be "redundent" Delta employees), it was not orderly and well marked. It took them over a year to get the shipment of new Delta products sorted out and the spare parts and servce is probably still a mess. When I was there right after the move there was only one engineer from Delta and he was one of three Delta folks who made the move!?!? Mario ------- Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2003 16:35:43 -0000 From: "Art Volz" Subject: Flapping In The Wind...Like Windmills (Was: AMMCO Bull Gear) Dave Heinlein wrote: > > Enjoy your quest! Beware of windmills...flappin' in the wind...just > > in case you might forget...that windmills flap. :-) > Sometimes they get loose and flap in the wind, but then that's a > design flaw, aint it? Dave in Chichester Many of the original windmills had canvas "blades" that flapped in the wind, especially fickle ones. Not a design flaw at all...maybe a technology gap...but, maybe, the optimal design for where they were located. Maybe they should be classified as "windpumps" for I recall seeing such in old Dutch paintings...pumping water from out of the lowlands and back into the awaiting sea. Interestingly, the bull gear that you seek was also made of canvas-- perhaps linen...impregnated with phenolic resin. Perhaps it was a design flaw--the use of "flappin'" linen--for many of these phenolic gears are, today, showing the toothlessness associated with their advancing age. If I had such an AMMCO, that was missing its bull gear, I would be investigating possible design alternatives: perhaps replacement with a chain and sproket system, with off the shelf components, similar to the excellent design used by Ford/Porter-Cable/Logan/B-G in the thousand and a half shapers that they collectively manufactured over the years with many still running...and with the original chains and sprockets. But, then, it wouldn't be quite right, would it? Sort of like a human heart transplanted with that of an ape...just not quite right. Monkey business at best. And, I guess, the real question...especially with an old machine...is whether it should remain as originally built, and thus inoperative until it gets an original type "ticker" replacement, or making chips with a design change replacement today. I think that the finding of a useable original AMMCO ticker will be extremely difficult if not impossible. But, then, stranger things happen...in this strange world of ours. Art (In Houston...wondering how it would be to have an ape's ticker ticking within.) ------- Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2003 20:04:20 -0000 From: "dreilanderecht" Subject: Re: Flapping In The Wind...Like Windmills (Was: AMMCO Bull Gear) I thought we covered quite well the documentation of the necessary dimensions of an AMMCO bullgear not so long back. All that is needed is a suitable blank and a bit of patience. Well, some dividing gear and a working shaper or mill would help of course. The technique that we argued about at rather too much length for cutting gears on a shaper would work for a helical gear, given the correct angle of offset and a bit of guidance for the wires so that they wrap properly onto the drum. I would suggest that a design that can last sixty years or so, as some seem to have, is probably actually quite adequate. Mine has the lowest serial number reported here so far and still has the original type...showing some wear but still going. Hard to tell if it has ever been replaced of course, but I doubt if AMMCO spares have ever been easy to obtain here in New Zealand. However, you could make a replacement out of cast iron, or even steel. The later will demand more care with lubrication, cast iron shares with the phenolic material the property of being quite tolerant of sketchy lubrication. I'd also suggest that if anyone does decide to set up to make one, they make a batch while they are about it, the extra ones would probably sell quite well on Ebay. I know a lot of people shy away from cutting gears...it is not as hard as it looks, at least for the sort of gears we want. I don't think I could do bits for a car gearbox! But changewheels for a lathe are not hard to do. The helix makes this one more of a challenge, but I would be more game to try that than I would to try and fit in an alternative drive like a chain. regards John ------- Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2003 21:39:51 -0000 From: "dreilanderecht" Subject: Re: Flapping In The Wind...Like Windmills (Was: AMMCO Bull Gear) Dealing with two at once here..... > Would is be possible to use straight involute gears and replace > the pinion also. These would be easier to make also. At the speeds > we need they dont have to be perfect but is they are badly done the > motion will not be completely smooth. It definitely would be possible to use straight involute gears. The main difficulty that I see is that you would have to determine the correct tooth size since the pitch circle is predetermined for you. The size needed might not be a standard size, but that is not the end of the world since there are techniques for determining a suitable approximation and making a gear cutter, or else a generating process will give the correct curve (or very close to it) from a relatively easy to make rack tooth shaped cutter. A second hurdle is that the smaller pinion should probably be hardened steel. This might mean that you need to establish liaison with a professional hardening service, if such is available in your area. Unless of course you are confident that you can harden such a pinion without causing any distortion! > >Has anyone, out there in Hobbyist Shaper Land, made a replacement > >bull gear for an AMMCO? Is anyone contemplating doing so? Does > >anyone have a horizontal mill with special indexing/dividing head I haven't made one, but I am certainly contemplating doing so. I don't have a horizontal mill, but there are more ways of killing a cat than choking it with cream. Consider, the approach you mention is to use a dividing head mounted on the milling table at a suitable angle and gear the head to the table so that a normal gear cutter can cut the helical tooth gap. (Or sometimes a more elaborate arrangement with a hobbing cutter generating the tooth form.) This means that you would also require a gear cutter of the right pitch. I have a set but they are for twenty DP, very handy for knocking out Myford change wheels, but hardly the thing for an AMMCO. I don't know in fact if the size of the AMMCO teeth is one that it would be easy to get a ready made gear cutter for. So how would I do it? Well, so far I have contempated two approaches. Both depend of course on the fact that I have a Vertex dividing attachment, the BS0 model, which is the basic worm dividing one with no changewheels for differential. But since we want 96 teeth this is no problem, 96 is one of the numbers it will do easily. One uses the vertical mill. A suitable gear cutter is made by the approach where you determine the correct diameter for a pair of hardened buttons which are set the correct distance apart and used to turn a disk with the desired gap form. The disk is notched to provide a cutting edge, and set on an offset centre so that the cutting edge is backed off. This is mounted on a mandrel in the mill. The mill head is set at the helix angle. The Vertex then has changewheels added to allow it to be geared to the feed on the milling table. I haven't sketched out the details of this, but instead of the dividing wheel being fixed to the body of the dividing head, it would be fixed to a gear driven from the feedscrew in the correct ratio. Remember I can make my own changewheels! A bevel pair would also be needed, but I have a 1 to 1 pair lying around that would do. I want to do something like this in the long run anyway, since spiral columns on a steam engine, say a beam engine, could look rather spiffy. Gotchas would include the need to make sure that any backlash in the gearing was always taken up in the same direction, we don't need anything to move under the cutting load. (Incidently, although the homemade cutter can never be the correct involute, the error can be kept small, eg no worse than the error caused by using commercial cutters for a range of sizes when they are only correct for one.) Second approach is based on the technique as discussed earlier. Now maybe you are not yet convinced that this will in fact generate a correct spiral tooth...Let me describe the setup I contemplate. The dividing attachment has a drum on the back the size of the pitch circle. This is pinned to the shaft by some means that lets you set it in the correct number of positions. He used a gear with the right number of teeth...I can of course make a disk with 96 holes quite easily. The dividing head is set with the axis at the correct angle to the ram, eg twenty degrees. The wire is set up across the throat of the shaper as per the original, but needs a pair of guide rollers attached to the table so that it does not walk sideways on the angled drum as the shaper traverses. So one end of the wire will be attached forward of the other on the actual shaper. The cutter is, as before,a single tooth of rack form. Now, if you picture this passing through the top of the wheel blank, You are probably thinking that this is cutting a straight line, not a helix. This would be true, if we only did one cut. but as the shaper traverses, we do many cuts,each slightly further along. The effect is that the single tooth traces the outline of a perfect rack tooth with which the nascent wheel is engaged. So the shape we need is generated in the wheel as the shaper traverses through the cut. The traverse must start before the cutter touches the wheel, and continue through until the cutter is clear on the other side. The drum and wire rotate the blank as if it was in engagement with a rack. After each tooth is cut, the blank is shifted around by one tooth division relative to the drum and the next tooth is cut. This approach is geometrically valid, the only misgiving I have is as to the absolute accuracy that can be obtained with aging amateur equipment. Bearing in mind that I don't have the sort of gear that the professionals would have for checking the results! I am pretty sure that with care in making up the attachment and the wires etc, we could get results that would be good enough for the AMMCO bull wheel. I don't think they would be good enough for reduction gearing for a steam turbine! Finally a helical gear is really just a coarse pitch multistart screw thread of special form...if you can cut multistart threads in your lathe you can cut such a gear, in principle at least. Practically it would not be cut with a normal tool, it would need to be milled with a milling attachment atached to the saddle. But I haven't seriously contemplated this one. I do intend to have a go at cutting an AMMCO bull gear. But at the moment, I am rather foccussed on my launch engine. I just got the crankshaft back from the grinders and have for the first time seen parts turn around and go up and down...this creates a rather strong desire to press on and get things put together so it can run on air. So unless my AMMCO wheel gets stripped out I am not likely to take time out from the main project for a few months yet. > >Anyone game on making a short run of "inexpensive replacements?", > >precisely and accurately machined to original specs and tolerances > >so that ailing AMMCOs could be fixed to again be "an extremely > >quiet running and a smooth operating machine"? I would bet you say, a dozen beer (Not American!) that I could make a wheel that will run quietly and well, although I would not guarantee to be as quiet as the original, or to the original tolerances. But that is hardly the point when it is a question of whether or not the machine goes at all. As far as a short run goes...well, if we can find say half a dozen or more people who want one, we could probably find someone with the right machine, supply them with blanks, and have them do the tricky part. > >An alternative drive, such as sprocket and chain or simply a > >straighttoothed pinion and bull gear would be, in my estimation, > >readily more effected by most of us than would be attempting, with > >inadequate machine tools, the machining of a "spiral toothed" > >AMMCO "quiet" and "smooth" replacement...whether of phenolic > >lamainate or of CI. Certainly the chain would be easier, I just think it is a bit of a kludge. The straight cut gear would be more in keeping...harder to do but not as hard as the helical. > >If not on the Emerald Isle, where can those treasure troves > >of "inexpensive" gears be hiding...for the last 60 years? The ones > >that AMMCO stocked for "easy replacement? Carmen Santiago, where in > >the world are you in our moment of greatest need? Probably there is a stack of phenolic gears stubbornly refusing to biodegrade in a landfill somewhere. Maybe they are in that warehouse soemwhere, but I would guess that it is more likely that they were tossed, or that they ran out and didn't restock. I think we are on our own for spares...particularly here in New Zealand! John ------- Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 07:41:40 -0000 From: "dreilanderecht" Subject: Castings arrive Hi All, my latest batch of castings is back from the foundry. Due to some changes in plan I needed a set of covers for the piston valve chests for my launch engine. I decided to bring the exhausts out through the covers instead of the side of the chest, which meant that the covers could not just be turned from bar. While I was about it I made patterns for the following shaper related bits: A foot and a flange for the support leg of the Alba 4S. By a bit of low cunning I can use the same pattern for each, the flange bolts on under the table using the two holes where the missing original went, holding a leg made from steel bar with another identical piece on the bottom to form the foot that slides along the base. The flange on the bottom won't need drilling for bolt holes of course. A casting for the original design of AMMCO vice. Just the main casting as the moving jaw and the round part underneath the base can both easily be made from cast iron bar. A pair of castings for the AMMCO dividing attachment. This is the base an the little headstock. I'll machine these up as close to standard as possible, but will make it possible to add on a worm and wheel for precision dividing too. They all look pretty good. I won't be machining them very soon, at least only the launch engine bits. This is mostly because the launch engine is the priority job, and also because warping is not likely to be a problem with these small chunky castings. The longer ones like the vice and the divider might be better for a little bit of time to season. Ok, I might encourage this with a bit of temperature cycling too. Anyway, it is all very satisfying. I'll take some pictures when I get the chance. I got spares done for the AMMCO ones, once I have had a chance to botch up my own they might be available. Anyway, the patterns exist, so maybe they could take a trip stateside sometime. regards John ------- Date: Thu, 02 Oct 2003 15:39:25 -0000 From: "Art Volz" Subject: Kiwi John: Need AMMCO Gear Data John-- I'd like some basic measurements, in INCHES, in re your AMMCO bull gear and drive pinion: --Bull Gear: ----Thickness? ----Number of Teeth? ----Guestimate of Diametral Pitch (Tooth Size)? --Pinion: ----Thickness? ----Number of Teeth? ----Guesstimate of Diametral Pitch (Tooth Size should be same as Bull) --Distance Between Centers of Bull Gear and Pinion Shafts? I want to do a wee bit of number crunching. Thanx-- Art (Houston) ------- Date: Thu, 02 Oct 2003 22:53:45 -0000 From: "dreilanderecht" Subject: Re: Kiwi John: Need AMMCO Gear Data Hi Art, I'll be happy to oblige, and should be able to get at it this weekend, which starts for me a lot sooner than it does for you guys. In the meantime, I think you will find the bull gear data further back among the posts from last time this came up. I'm not sure how easy it is going to be to measure up the pinion, and I don't really want to totally dismantle the machine again, especially since I already have the big machine partly down. (doing the downslide and also getting the vice cleaned up ready to paint it.) It would of course be possible to make a pair of straight cut gears with the same pitch circle and number of teeth and have them mesh correctly. I wonder if this is what you are thinking of? I still don't think the helical one is that hard, but I can see that I will have to do one to convince you. Ah well, so far I have got as far as cutting a blank off while I had the piece of stock in the saw! I want to set up so that I can gear the Vertex dividing head to the cross feedscrew, while still being able to angle the dividing head axis. This will need a number of change wheels plus a universal joint or two. I'm still mulling over the physical arrangements in my head, but it looks like a bit of a project, and getting the launch engine running on air by Christmas is still the priority. In effect what I would be doing is connecting the dividing wheel of the vertex to the leadscrew. But I probably wouldn't use the standard dividing pin etc since I don't want to wreck it. The same sort of setup has possibilities for milling long spirals on the vertical mill, so is a good project to think about anyway And yes, I can do inches! I don't like inch fractions though, or Whitworth threads.... (how far is 1 and 13/16 plus two and 15/32...life is too short to care...) Actually nobody has got threads completely right yet, The British did the 55 degree thing, the Americans got the angle right but do that odd stuff with wire gauges, and the pitch system on the metric ones makes for some funny changewheels. regards John ------- Date: Fri, 03 Oct 2003 15:30:30 -0000 From: "Art Volz" Subject: Re: Kiwi John: Need AMMCO Gear Data John -- Don't take anything apart. In Message #4546 the following measurements & calculations stated that the AMMCO bull gear was: 6.125 OD (measured), 96 Teeth (counted), and 16 DP (calculated). Hope that these are correct! The center-to-center distance between pinion gear shaft and bull gear shaft can be directly measured with a 12" caliper and then 1/2 the diameters of both the pinion shaft and the bull gear shaft could then be subracted to determine this distance. I'd like to know what these shaft diameters are also. If the bull gear is REALLY a 96 Tooth 16 DP, then the EXACT center-to-center distance is the other critical dimension. Anyone have a AMMCO dissassembled who can measure the bull gear/pinion gear thickness? You're right, John, I am trying to determine correct dimensional data from which to determine the process/tooling needed to make straight tooth replacement gearing for the AMMCO for those unable to cut replacement spiral gearing. I "might" be willing to make several straight tooth gear sets (partially completed = teeth cut in proper thickness aluminum (bull) and steel (pinion) gear blanks) with my Benchmaster horizontal mill and Vertex (B&S #0 clone) semi-universal dividing/indexing head...or maybe Mississippi Mike (Sir Grey Bus) "might" be willing. Art (Houston) ------- Date: Fri, 03 Oct 2003 22:25:31 -0000 From: "dreilanderecht" Subject: Re: Kiwi John: Need AMMCO Gear Data Hi Art, Well, for truly accurate measurements I would have to take some bits off, so take these with a grain of salt if they don't seem quite right. The pinion has 16 teeth as counted. The width is the same as the bull gear, by eyeball only. The tip diameter is 1.1 inch and the root diameter is .847. These were measured using a pair of dividers to transfer the measurement, so I would not trust them to be extremely accurate. The shaft is .500 inch where the pinion goes on. The pinion has an extension just under the root circle diameter about 3/8 wide with a taper pin though it to retain it on the shaft. So the blank needs to be wider than the bull gear blank. The shaft spacing is 3.515 inches. This is measured by taking the diameter of the flat pulley, the diameter of a collar on the bull shaft, and the spacing between them and doing the calculation. I'll give you the raw data: collar 2.108 space .774 pulley 3.334 Since the pulley is slightly crowned, I was trying to be consistent about the point the two measurements are taken at. I could refine this but it means taking off the feed arrangement and pulley. I would be perfectly prepared to beleive that the actual spacing would be 3.5" That would fit in with the 16 DP and the number of teeth on both wheels. I can quite beleive that my measurement could be out by that much. I've got a BS0 too, the genuine Vertex. Of course, I wish it was a BS2, and the ideas I have for providing it with change wheels would effectively make it into one of these. regards John ------- Date: Sat, 04 Oct 2003 09:11:18 -0000 From: "Art Volz" Subject: Gears: Engineering Info (Ref: AMMCO Gears) FYI-- Engineering information--formulas, etc.--for various gear types at: http://bostongear.com/pdf/gears_catalog_sections/12_engineering_inform ation.pdf . (NOTE: if Yahoo truncates URL above, repair--glue back together--at "address" box and re-enter.) PDF file is 21 pages at 485Kb download. Specific data and formulas for HELICAL GEARS (spiral gears) at pp. 142-144. Art (Houston...at 4AM on a Saturday autumn morn.) ------- Date: Wed, 08 Oct 2003 16:35:28 -0000 From: "Art Volz" Subject: AMMCO Stroke Length > I believe that the convention for determining the nominal size of a > shaper refers to the maximum size of a cube that the shaper can > handle, not to the stroke length. A shaper capable of finishing a > 6" by 6" by 6" cube would need a stroke of greater than 6" - say > about 7". John Martin John-- The "cube" thing may have been a "convention", but I don't know any of the shaper makers who ever really followed it. I think the "cube" was contrived by textbook writers (some nonsense to write test questions about) & advertisement copy hacks rather than the makers' engineering departments. Go to Tony G's site-- http://www.lathes.co.uk/ammco --and, in the first paragraph, read the up/down, left/right movement capabilities of the AMMCO/Delta table, the up/down movement capabilities of the tool slide, and the fore/aft ram capibility, and go figure: what size cube be this? Near the end of the first paragraph it states that AMMCO called their shaper a 6-inch where the actual possible max ram stroke was 7.25 inches and, when Rockwell-Delta marketed the SAME shaper, they called it a 7-inch. I think the real "cube" was between the ears of the marketing departments' "deep thinkers" at the various companies, for the marketeers were the ones who determined by what numbers their shapers would be called. I hate "conventions" cuz they never, ever, really are "conventional". :-) Art (Houston) ------- Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2003 17:39:38 -0000 From: "Art Volz" Subject: Joe W's Colchester Gear. wuz: Re: Leaded steel, NON-Green steel 12L14 Joe-- Just went to http://www.mscdirect.com and looked for a sheet of LE grade phenolic impregnated fabric of size 0.625 x 12 x 12 from which to machine an AMMCO bull gear--spiral or straight--and discovered the price at a hefty $46.10 exluding shipping. At http://www.mcmaster.com , a same size sheet of similar Garolite LE grade (#874K181) is $47.15 plus shipping. McMaster, however, gives the "skinny" about this material, which is NOT designed for hobbyists to machine gears from. It has good strength characteristics, especially for a plastic, but lower than 6061 aluminum, of 11,700 psi cross-wise & 15,300 length-wise. It also has a hardness rating of Barcol 46-10, but has a severe problem for hobbyists attempting to machine anything from it: only DIAMOND-TIPPED tools are recommended for machining this stuff. My wife OWNS the ONLY diamonds in my house and, when asked, resolutely has prohibited my use of them in any and all engineering "experiments" or other such "tom-foolery", no matter how good and noble the cause may be. I do not know where to buy reasonably priced diamond tipped gear cutters in 16 DP sizes, or at any price for that matter. The only gear cutters that I can locate are high speed steel ones, and they're expensive enuf. To attempt to cut 96 teeth in a 5/8 inch thick round chunk of LE grade phenolic will surely dull the tool beyond use--without multiple, during cutting operations, resharpenings--in very short order. And, then, few of us hobbyists have, or have access to, proper cutter and tool grinding machines with the capability of properly fixing, locating, and re-sharpening form cutter tools as the gear cutters are. It appears to me, that while the manufacturing of LE grade phenolic impregnated fabric gears is feasible by industrial manufacturers, it is totally impractical from a "normal" hobbyist's view point...and apparently much more expensive than much cheaper metallic alternatives. Got any diamond tipped 16DP, No. 2, 14-1/2 PA, gear cutters? (Ich haben milch...und kase...fur Kris Kringle. :-) ) Art (Houston North) ------- Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2003 14:01:55 -0500 From: jrw Subject: Re: Joe W's Colchester Gear. wuz: Re: Leaded steel, NON-Green steel 12L14 Art: The MSC product and the Garolite appear be the same material only different trade names. Both are linen filled with phenolic resin . I have machined lots of the product with out any problems. I use the plate stock and with a hole saw drill out a hole (the hole cut out plugs are handy for other projects) and then band saw the OD to rough size. The part is then chucked up and the hole is bored to size. Then it is mounted on an internal expanding collet and the OD machined. Sharp high speed tools do fine. The tendency is to run the cutting speed too fast. It takes SHARP tools and a good dust collection system. I run the vacuum hose next to the cutting tool and still have dust all over the shop. Any good gear cutter will do fine as they are not run at high RPM's. Joe ------- Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2003 21:17:25 -0000 From: "Art Volz" Subject: Joe W's Colchester Gear. wuz: Re: Leaded steel, NON-Green steel 12L14 Joe-- You may have been able to machine LE phenolic fabric without problems on a lathe with an EASILY resharpenable HSS single point tool...resharpenable w/o cost if you had needed to do so. Doing so is a world of difference to cutting a gear with a formed gear cutter, and for which I and most hobbyists do NOT have a tool and cutter grinder to resharpen it with if need be. HSS gear cutters cost $30 bucks a pop plus shipping; HSS stix are about a buck apiece and easily resharpened. The practicality of cutting a LE gear, just considering the amount of money that I'm willing to expend on cutting one such gear, is not apparent to me. For one, I can obtain almost TWO same sized metal blanks--in #40 grey CI, SAE 1018, or in Al 6061...for the same price as ONE piece of LE phenolic-fabric. I've heard from other sources that the cutting of LE phenolic is also prone to severe chipping unless a rigid set of metal plates are secured to both sides of the phenolic blank. More money...and for plates that would soon be scrap...unless thick enuf to be used as bull gears themselves. And then there are the machines that I have (I'm just considering myself) to cut such a gear are reduced to either a Lewis horizontal mill or a bulkier/more-rigid Benchmaster of similar size. I have tried mounting a 7/8 inch ID 2-1/4 inch ID HSS DP 16 gear cutter in a special R8-7/8-inch stub arbor (from Bob Bertand at Lathemaster) in my vertical mill, but I do not have the clearance vis-a-vis the spindle and the gear blank to do so and cut an AMMCO sized bull gear. Additionally, there are other problems. Unless I re-motor my vertical mill with a speed reducing DC speed controlled motor, or something like an even more expensive VFD system, the minumum speed for cutting steel is much too high, although OK for aluminum with either a 2-1/8 inch or 2-1/2 inch OD gear cutter. (More on speeds and materials later--can't write a book all at once.) The Benchmaster has the same minimum speed problems: too fast for SAE 1018, but OK for Al 6061. All that being said, my situation, the only PRACTICAL solution for me, from machine capability to cost, is an Al 6061 gear. Is it perfect, is it the best, will it last for eons? NO! Is it practical, will it give long enuf service for most hobbyist's use, and be doable and economical at the same time? YES...at least for me! Others, wishing to make gears, perhaps for an AMMCO or a Lewis, or whatever, may wish to make their gears otherwise. I will take the low road, the workable practical road for me, the economical road, that is as we used to say in the Green Machine: "Good Enuf For Gov'ment Work"...and good enuf for me too. (I'd be one of those dumbies that would have been willing to fly over the "hump" in the military version of a DC-3, with one wing replaced with a shorter one- -but, available one--from a DC-2. Interestingly, LTG Vinegar Joe's jungle-rotted boys did this, and more than once. When you needs them grits and bullets.... In the jungles of Burma, you had to do what was possible, to do what was practical. A 75-percent solution, and when you need it, is always better than a higher percentage solution that is not possible. Hitler learned this lesson at Kursk...it ended up killing him.) But, "The Aluminum won't wear well!" Maybe "yes"...and maybe "no"...I don't know how many service hours--and no one here does either-- just how many service hours an AMMCO shaper will give before a Al 6061 gear needs to be replaced...or rotated 180 degrees. There has been some concern about grit abrading an aluminum gear. I'm sure of it, and grit will grind away at CI, steel, phenolic, and even zinc-alloy gears as well. (Atlas used zinc alloy gears--not in their shaper bull gear, though--in about all of ther machines...and, except for "zinc cancer", accomplished the mission and with easily made die castings.) The best way to avoid grit abrading the gears is to shut the "damn door", and use clean lubricants (DON'T USE GREASE!!). For those with pumps AND filters AND with doors (the ones I haven't stolen) will be able to do this in better fashion; some will need to close the column bottom opening as well. Art (Houston) ------- Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2003 22:43:07 -0000 From: "stevenson_engineers" Subject: Joe W's Colchester Gear. wuz: Re: Leaded steel, NON-Green steel 12L14 Art, Loads of bollocks. Tufnol of all grades can be machined fine with sharp HSS tools. I have made many gears out of this material, we use it all the while for brush rings for big DC motors. For milling with 5/16" cutters we run at abour 4,000 revs, a 2 1/2" to 3" gear cutter we run at about 500 revs with no problem. Only problem with Turnol is the price. At one time it was made from pressed linen sheet impregnated with resin. Nowdays its made from fifty pound notes pressed together and impregnated with liquid gold. Somewhere I have an origianl handbook on machining Tufnol issed by the company who makes it. John S. ------- Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2003 16:04:44 -0700 From: "keith green" Subject: Re: Joe W's Colchester Gear. wuz: Re: Leaded steel, NON-Green steel 12L14 I work in a gearcutting shop and we use the phenolic material all the time there. No diamond tools required. It's machined as any other plastic would be. Lots of coolant to keep the incredibly stinky dust down and cut as usual with HSS gear cutters. May be a little abrasive but I've not had any complaints about it from the gearcutters, other than the smell. Did I mention it SMELLS? Absolutely REEKS. Dust mask and plenty of ventilation and wash your clothes and yourself immediately kind-of-stink. The material we use we simply call by it's trade name of 'Celeron'. Light brown when dry, darker wet. I've heard there are grades not suitable for gears but I guess we use the gear-grade for everything to avoid confusion. Keith Green Vancouver, BC ------- Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2003 20:41:56 -0500 From: jrw Subject: Re: Joe W's Colchester Gear. wuz: Re: Leaded steel, NON-Green steel 12L14 Art: The "Tufnol" and "Garolite" are trade names and the composition of the products can vary anywhere from paper, cotton, linen, or fiber glass with various resins used for the binder. I prefer to use the generic names. "Celeron" - the only name I can find for that product is the Intel Computer chip line although it may be a trade name associated with a line of plastics. The "Tufnol" literature shows it being used for gears and even down to small pitches. The hard thing on tools is the Epoxy/fiberglass products and it will dull a band saw blade in a hurry. Joe ------- Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2003 02:46:58 -0000 From: "Art Volz" Subject: "Celeron" Phenolic Laminate URL. wuz:Joe W's Colchester Gear. Joe--The "Celeron" phenolic laminate is manufactured by a company "GRT Genesis" with head office in Brampton, Ontario. "Celeron" is discussed at http://www.grtgenesis.com/page3.htm , but without any specs that I could find. Art (Houston) ------- Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2003 08:10:47 -0000 From: "stevenson_engineers" Subject: Joe W's Colchester Gear. wuz: Re: Leaded steel, NON-Green steel 12L14 Art. There is a data sheet for the Tufnol Carp brand at http://homepage.ntlworld.com/stevenson.engineers/lsteve/files/Engineer ing%20materials.pdf I don't know of any suppliers in the US for small quantities. As regards sharpening gear cutters they are always ground on the face only and radially, doing this keeps the true profile. John S. ------- Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2003 18:57:35 -0000 From: "Art Volz" Subject: Re: Ammco lurker In Metal_Shapersx~xxyahoogroups.com, "valblok" wrote: > I have been lurking on this group for a considerable time. This is > my first post. I have learned a lot from you guys, as I am new to > metalworking. I now bought a Ammco 7 inch that belonged to the > South-African weather service. I bought it unseen and when I went > to pick it up, I got a pleasant surprise. Apart from the vice, I > also got the original rotary table and the > factory "dividing head". It has > plates with 30, 36, 32, 20, 40, 22, 27, 28, and 48 holes as well as > a large plate with 135 holes. Most of the plates seem to be shop > made. It also came with spanners and a tool holder for internal work > that seems to be factory made. (Serial number SH1275815, separate > motor, 4-speed pulley.) Welcome Val -- Good haul!! > I started making chips with it, but need to make myself a tool > holder according to Art's drawing. Some people have made the tool holder using silver-solder to affix the shank to the head rather than brazing. Silver-solder will give an exceptional appearing joint and, if very carefully and closely fitted, will be exceptionly strong as well. (Don't use a motor larger than the 1/3 HP OEM #62-180.) A simple jig to hold the shank and head rigidly in place for silver soldering, or brazing, is easily made. Use a 6-inch long length of 1/4-inch square keystock firmly gripped, as if it were a tool bit, in the head and then carefully clamp, using two 2-inch C-clamps or smaller, the keystock atop of and parallel with the shank. Voila!! > Everything seems to be in good shape, though there is too much play > to my liking laterally in the table. I suspect the nut on the > lateral feed. To me it seems strange that no provision was made for > locking the table on the lateral plane. Why is that? It would have > been easy to tap the table from the bottom and put a lock there. I > thought it would be useful like when cutting slots and keyways to > be able to lock the table. A locking system should be easy to make for the traverse movement of the table similar to the one used for locking vertical movement. I never noticed it before, but looking at the exploded drawing for the Cross Rail & Table, it appears that there is only ONE set screw (S- 165) holding the Table Gib (S-2513) in place. I think the designers depended on the cross feed screw to prevent lateral table movement. This could be because they were concerned about possible machine damage if a traverse lock was used while the traversing feed mechanism was engaged. > I plan to start practising making square holes, as I am very > interested in falling block single shot rifle actions. Greetings Valblok Keep us apprised of the machining progress on your falling block rifle(s). For which caliber(s) do you intend to design it/them for? Art (Houston) ------- Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2003 17:21:26 -0000 From: "Art Volz" Subject: Re: need ammco help In Metal_Shapersx~xxyahoogroups.com, "karkar62" wrote: >I finally bought a shaper. Other than minor shipping damage i hope it >will be a good machine. It is a 7in ammco ser no SH854192 with war >prod board plate on it,anybody have an idea how old it is? Hiya K-K-- With the war tag and that serial number I suspect it was made in 1941. >The vise does not look like the vise in the manual,it is constructed >lighter but it has the graduated base and fits the machine,could it >be an early or newer model vise? I don't have a clue what your vise could be unless you post PIX x~xx http://www.groups.yahoo.com/group/Metal_Shapers_Pix at "Photos"--that is our PIX and Files expansion site. BTW, there is an eDrawings file at "Files" here of a completely dimensioned parts drawing set for machining your own "spitting-image" AMMCO vise, if you have the capability of making one...and the volition...much of which could be machined on your shaper. You will have to download and install the FREE eDrawings viewer first in order to view the drawings: http://www.solidworks.com . >the machine isnt perfect, the slide has >some wear and scoring-should i just adjust the gib and use it? Yes and No. It depends on just what and how severe the damage is. There are some expensive products that can be used to resurface/ refurbish slides & ways--I'll let Joe W. talk to you about that. >clapper frame has a chunk busted out of it but should be >serviceable,it must have been crashed at one time. Depending on severity and--????--you might wish to make a piece to fit and silver-solder it in place. Again, Joe W. is the expert here as well. >But i guess i am lucky, the bull gear seems to be in good condition, >has all teeth and seems tight with not much wear. You have indeed been blessed by the black-garbed gods of the underworld! >Shaper is painted a light blue color,could this be original paint? NOPE!! Look at your War Board's tag and observe the lite blue paint smeared on its edges and then imagine this lite blue machine at war...with the camouflage garbed maintenance men of the USMC...just a'shore on Iwo Jima. "Damn It! Get that blue piece of s**t outta here!! It's drawing knee mortar fire!!!" Sure sounds to me like a Saturday afternoon's dance...when one of the previous owners didn't have anything to do otherwise to divert his bored brain cells... with a couple of cans of fish-oil Rustoleum. My brother-in-law (bless his dearly departed soul) annointed my Uncle's c. 1953 Craftsman 10-inch bench saw with that marvelous blue flavor of paint as he said: "gotta stop that rust!" (It's a good saw, but kept hidden from view...and raucous laughter...under a work bench in my shop.) Your AMMCO's original color should most likely be olive drab...I've seen several war veteran's so painted. When you get around to repainting it, which all of you new shaper owners seem to want to do and first off, carefully remove the drive pins securing the War Board's tags (and other ID tags) and you'll instantly see the original paint. >Does not look like a krylon rebuild. Any input would be appreciated. Art (Houston) ------- Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2003 13:23:27 -0500 From: jrw Subject: Re: Re: need ammco help Art: On the sliding surfaces I would merely file/scrape off the high spots and adjust the gibs to provide a working unit. The slide area can be built up with some of the proprietary epoxy/metal compounds but that is an art (not you Art) and costly. The missing section of the cast iron can be built up with bronze rod using the Oxy/Acetylene torch and filling the missing section with the bronze or welding in a section of cast iron. Small parts can be silver soldered but the bronze would be a better solution. (or make a new part from scratch). Joe W ------- Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 16:03:30 -0000 From: "Art Volz" Subject: Re: need ammco help In Metal_Shapersx~xxyahoogroups.com, Karla Sullivan wrote: > Thanks for the help,the paint is an od green.I had another look at the slide, the only wear that is apparent is where the gib has been riding. The base of the slide and the other side do not appear to be grooved or scored. My next question is-what is an easy way to remove the top slideram i would like to clean it and change the felt wipers. < Karla--When you look around to find paint for your WWII AMMCO take your time and get the right stuff. I forget what kind of oil-based enamel was used originally and whether it was flat, satin, or gloss. Buy a good olive drab and not the stuff that Wallys sells for deer blinds. If the original was gloss, you may have to buy a flat paint and then give it a compatible clear gloss top coat. Let us know what you find out and what you finally decide to do. And, when you do it, take your time to do it right. A bad paint job is readily discernable and screams to high heaven "NEWBIE!!!" (I don't paint nuthin' cuz I don't want people to know. :-) ) Take the time also to remove, carefully, all of the data plates. To clean off lite blue splatter DON'T use paint remover or acetone--it will take off all of the paint. Instead, get a small Exacto type razor knife and very carefully chip off the offending blue. You may not be able to get it all off wihout damage to the original paint and tag--then just leave it: its part of the machine's heritage. Buy a good grade of medium weight Mobil way-slide lube for your ram. With the 6 x Gitts type spring cap oilers you're going to have to oil Before, DURING & OFTEN!!!!, and After to insure adequate lubrication. If you don't have the proper felt send me a back- channel with your addy and I'll send you a small piece of the type that Scott L. uses on the Logans. As Kiwi John points out, while these felts do preclude the larger pieces of swarf from getting into the slide-ways, they are really oilers and "dams" for reducing the loss of lubricant. They will pick up and retain small particles of metal and, if those particles are harder than your slides and ways, they'll happily chew away on those parts. These felts really need to be changed more often than not, and especially so after machining nasty stuff such as CI. Did your AMMCO really use felt on the front end of the slideways? In the Delta/Rockwell (AMMCO) 1955 manual, I don't see any such felt "wipers"--the exploded Fig. 18 diagram shows two "Washers" S-1514 & S-1515 and two "Seals" S-1512 & S-1513. I do not have an AMMCO, but I do have a Lewis, whose construction vis-a-vis the ram is similar and as is the removal of the ram from the column. First refer to the illustrations in your manual and get someone to help you. (You've got a manual, right? If you don't have a manual wait until you do. Don't mess with it "blind".) First remove the S-1532 "Ram Guard" and then rescrew its two SP-769 "Cap Screws" back into the column to preclude their loss. Remove any tool holder and the lantern tool post from the clapper. Crank the tool slide up so that it will clear the column on both ends. Loosen all of the gib screws so that the ram slides freely without impediment. Remove the ram handle and washer. Let the stud and ram block rotate downwards free. (On reassembly refer to Fig. 23 to insure the links face rearward--you may need a string to pull the stud back into the slot in the ram at that time.) Your ram should now be free to be pulled rearward and off of the column. As you slowly do this, have your helper grab ahold of the gib and keep it held in its original orientation. After you have laid the ram carefully down, take the gib and scribe litely on its back side its in-machine orientation: front, top, and back sides. AMMCO guys--check out my procedures for accuracy. I don't know if your AMMCO came with the N0 27-860 Portable Cabinet Base (Oak),or not, but an Isometric scalable drawing of it is at Fig. 21. You might want to fabricate one of these at the onset...to get your juices up to temp. If you do, let me know and I'll give you the start dimensions with which to proportionally dimension all of the parts. This is one slick cabinet. On my back burner is to make a replica of it for use by my Lewis-10. Golden oak, rubbed to a dull sheen with linseed oil. amd with brass or stainless steel (for me) hardware: Yummy!!! Now do something for me...you'll need an 8-inch or larger Vernier/Dial/Digital caliper...measure the center-to-center distance between your external bull gear shaft and external pinion gear shaft. You're probably have to measure from the outside of each shaft and then subtract one-half of each shaft's diameter from the total to arrive at the center-to-center distance. I need this distance verified to complete my calculations for the bull gear and pinion specs. Thanx. Art (Houston. Gosh it takes me a long time to research and compose and type one of these responses. Must be getting old now too--as you can readily determine, I'm already senile.) ------- Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 18:06:52 -0000 From: "dreilanderecht" Subject: Re: need ammco help If I recall correctly, in order to get the stud clear from the ram enough to let the ram slide out, you will need to take the pivot pin out from the bottom of the slotted arm and let the whole lot drop down. Otherwise you can't get enough clearance to get the ram off. The pivot pin is held by two collars retained by screws which can only be accessed from under the machine, so you have to at lest tilt it to one side to get at them. Good thing this is not a thirty inch machine! > As you slowly do this, have > your helper grab ahold of the gib and keep it held in its original > orientation. After you have laid the ram carefully down, take the > gib and scribe litely on its back side its in-machine orientation: > front, top, and back sides Other than the clearance problem, sounds pretty right to me. Since the Gib strip has dimples from the screws, you actually can't get it very wrong...there are two ways around that would put the dimples against the screws,and one of those will have the sides angled the wrong way. regards John ------- Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2003 20:29:47 -0000 From: "hweidman01" Subject: 7" Ammco - aka my 2nd shaper Hi Group I joined here quite some time ago - when I acquired my 1st shaper... an Alba 6s 24". Did intend to clean & tune up the Alba back then, but then along came some other machine tools and to get them in, I had to push the shaper back into the 'storage' area of the shop...where it still resides. It's currently busy holding up some misc articles... Anyhow, was browsing through the ads in the 'buy & sell' last evening and...well, picked up the Ammco this a.m. First time I've seen a shaper advertised locally. The little machine doesn't appear to have been used much. The sliding surfaces look to be in near new condition and everything seems 'tight' - it runs smooth & quiet. >From reading here, I knew about the phenolic bull gear so when I had the door off, I checked it...turned the machine over slowly by hand... just when I thought I was home free, there it was! Nuts...a chip in the edge of the b gear. Two teeth missing for about 1/3 of the way across the face. Oh well, since machine tools are somewhat scarce here, I negotiated a deal on it anyway. The other 'downers' - no belt guards - no vise - no manual Guards, I suppose I can replicate. Vice, looks like a project...thank you to the person who posted the vise plans here! Which brings us to 'Manual'... would anyone care to sell me a copy? I've read some but not all (yet) of the back posts on Ammcos and have been following the recent discussions re phenolic gears / tufnol etc. Would have followed more intently if I'd known I was going to be facing the 'damaged phenolic gear problem'. So, where is the group at right now vis a vis a solution for said gear problem? BTW, any truth to the rumour that owning an even number of shapers is an 'unstable condition' which tends to lead to the hot pursuit of another? Stranger still, I've heard the same rumour about owning an uneven number... ------- Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2003 18:31:05 -0500 From: jrw Subject: Re: Re: 7" Ammco - aka my 2nd shaper Art: Phenolic gear problem-- Time to either setup a mill and cut some gears or my first repair is to splice in a section of similar material and with a band saw and careful filing , cut the required number of new teeth after making a template from sheet metal. Then rotate the gear on the drive shaft to place the load on another section of the gear. This gear requirement is not a high speed application where high precision gears are required. Joe W ------- Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2003 23:49:24 -0000 From: "hweidman01" Subject: Re: 7" Ammco - aka my 2nd shaper Thanks Art I can do the measurements and tooth counts for you if you like. Just came in from unloading the Ammco (1st machine tool I've picked up & carried into the shop {g}) and did a little more investigating. I set the stroke for max length & attempted to turn it through a cycle by hand. When the ram was nearing the back limit, something blocked the linkage (loosening the ram position lock made no difference). I've found that someone has added an extra collar on the pinion shaft, opposite the pinion side - against the inside of the outer bushing. With the stroke set at anything over 6", the linkage (can't remember what to call the long 'link' that comes up from the bottom) hits this bushing. The damage on the bull gear lines up with this exact position...so, someone added the collar, then, at some point, tried to run the machine at max stroke and...bang...damaged gear. I suppose if ya gotta have a bruised gear, this is the way you'd want it. The pinion hits the chipped part just when the ram is changing direction (to forward)...presumably, very little load on the gears at this point. With a little luck, it may work fine 'as is' for a long time. Question is - why the extra collar on the pinion shaft? Looks like the pinion itself would position the shaft in one direction. Is there anything besides the pulley to hold position & resist thrust in the other direction? Herb W (forgot to sign previous post) near Winnipeg ------- Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2003 06:52:55 -0000 From: "dreilanderecht" Subject: Re: 7" Ammco - aka my 2nd shaper Mike M Fendley wrote: > Dearest AAMCO trashed bull gear owner, > Art and I are still waiting for the first AAMCO owner to give us the > exact measurement across gear shafts (minus 1/2 the diameter of > each) to get the exact center to center distance of the gears. Well, here was me thinking that two of us had provided measurements that pretty well established that the nominal dimension is 3.5 inches, even if neither machine actually measured exactly that. Mine at least has every excuse, being at this point the lowest known Ammco serial number in captivity, and hence the oldest. (One assumes!) I'll take a look when I go downstairs to see if I can help with the block orientation, I know that if you put it in the wrong way you don't get good results....limits the stoke severely I seem to recall. Now how would I have found that out.... regards John ------- Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2003 04:57:30 -0000 From: "hweidman01" Subject: More Ammco ??? (re 7" Ammco aka my 2nd shaper) Well, I made 'first chips' with the little shaper this evening. The old girl seems to work fine. Seems that the damaged bull gear won't be a problem. (big sigh of relief) As I mentioned in post 5859, someone has installed an extra collar on the pinion shaft which interferes with the link when set for 6" or greater stroke. I'm going to remove it but am pondering the reason for its being there. This has got me wondering if the current direction of rotation is correct. As it is now, the thrust on the pinion gear would try to move it towards the center of the machine (away from the operator's side) and the offending collar is located against the inside of the bushing such that it would hold this thrust. I tend to think that the pinion gear should rotate such that the thrust would push it against the 'near' side of the machine instead. As currently wired (as per the previous owner) when standing in the operator's position, the pinion shaft turns clockwise. Is this correct? Herb W (near Winnipeg) ------- Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2003 07:18:54 -0000 From: "dreilanderecht" Subject: Re: More Ammco ??? (re 7" Ammco aka my 2nd shaper) When you look in the door, or the opening where it used to be if Art got there first, the bull gear should be turning clockwise. This is important to get the correct slow forward and fast return. (Not that it is life threatening for a try out, but in the long run you will get the best tool life that way.) This is generally true for crank type shapers, eg the cut should be made when the crankpin is at the top of the slotted arm. So since you are looking from the other side, it does sound like it is going the right way. regards John ------- Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2003 14:52:55 -0000 From: "Art Volz" Subject: Re: 7" Ammco - aka my 2nd shaper Joe-- Do you need a piece of phenolic or a gear cut of same? I just had a piece of LE 14 x 24 x 1-inch thick sent to Mississippi Mike at Grey Busia, Iowa. Let me know...cuz "Mike's Machinists" are "gearing up" (get it?) to cut some phenolic gears. What DP, PA, and number of teeth do you need? Art ------- Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2003 09:06:21 -0600 From: jrw Subject: Re: Re: 7" Ammco - aka my 2nd shaper Art: I was commenting about the ones who need a gear to get off their backsides and get busy and repair or fabricate a new gear. My little Logan shaper has a chain drive. I buy my cloth filled phenolic material from Regal Plastics on Wirt. Joe W ------- Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2003 17:04:41 -0500 From: "S or J" Subject: Re: 7" Ammco - aka my 2nd shaper Hi Herb If you need a copy of the AMMCO manual, just e-mail me your snail address off-group. Gratis. Someone was kind enough to help me out and I am happy to pass along the favour. (From the spelling of "favour", you already know that I'm north of the line so postage is cheaper. That too is gratis. Just help someone else someday.) Thanks for restirring the pot so that the AMMCO bull gear replacement project is itself almost back in gear. Experience gained by the efforts of Art and Joe could benefit some current or future members of the group with gears that are injured past small repairs. Steve -- in Thunder Bay, Ontario, Canada Machining and Metalworking at Home http://www.janellestudio.com/metal/ ------- Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 01:22:47 -0000 From: "hweidman01" Subject: Re: 7" Ammco - aka my 2nd shaper Hi Steve, Thank you kindly for this generous offer! You'll have mail shortly... I've been reading the old Ammco posts and judging by the number of times a request for manual comes up, I shouldn't have any problem 'passing along the favour'! Looks like the bull gear in my shaper will work, but it would be nice to know that replacements are available. Herb W near Winnipeg Mb ------- Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 01:12:01 -0000 From: "hweidman01" Subject: Re: More Ammco ??? (re 7" Ammco aka my 2nd shaper) "Art Volz" wrote: > Herb-- > Your shaper has what is called a "Quick Return" action. The easiest > way to tell if the motor is turning in the proper direction is to > time the ram stroke and compare it with the time of the return > stroke: the ram stroke should take more time while the return stroke > should take less. Correct the motor rotation if necessary. Yes, I should have remembered the 'quick return' from the reading that I've done. Thanks for the reminder...and it was turning the right way. > You are probably going to have to fiddle with the pinion's extra > collar and figure out why it's there and if it should be there. > Maybe the pinion slips along the shaft if the collar ain't there to > stop it???? Art The collar is positioned as if to stop the whole pinion shaft from moving, but it doesn't belong there as there isn't room for it. I'll have to pull the pinion shaft to remove it (collar) and at the same time, maybe I'll find out why it was put there. Thanks again Art Herb W ------- Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 19:07:46 -0000 From: "hweidman01" Subject: Ammco serial No. etc. >From reading the archives, I see that data on Ammcos is being gathered so FWIW, here's mine: Serial No. - SH164492 Data plate - 7" shaper Drive - motor mount/countershaft assembly seperate from machine Table lift - bevel gear/side mounted crank Original colour - grey over red primer Table Holes - not threaded Door - present but, unfortunately, the decal is gone or painted over Herb W near snowy Winnipeg ------- Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2003 16:53:01 -0500 From: "S or J" Subject: Re: Ammco serial No. etc. Hi Herb Saw your note to the group, and the one original survey question left unanswered is your confirmation of the pulley details. FYI, pulley results for units reported so far: All 6" plated shapers with separate motor/pulley unit bolted to the bench behind the shaper have a 3-step flat pulley and flat belt to the shaper. All 7" plated shapers with motor/pulley unit attached at the back of the shaper have a 4-step v-pulley and v-belt to the shaper. Thanks for contributing to the data, which will also end up in the AMMCO Shaper file on my site. Steve -- in Thunder Bay, Ontario, Canada Machining and Metalworking at Home http://www.janellestudio.com/metal/ ------- Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 04:54:56 -0000 From: "hweidman01" Subject: Re: Ammco serial No. etc. Steve, My '7', like the others, has the 4spd v belt drive setup. Came equipped with a 1/4 hp motor. ------- Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 08:51:40 -0000 From: "dreilanderecht" Subject: Ammco measurements Since we never seem to have quite satisfied Art over the centre to centre measurements of the little Ammco, I took the pulley off and made the measurements. Here is the raw data, the arithmetic is left as an exercise for the student.... Over shafts, pushed together: 4.435" Over shafts, pushed apart: 4.480" Between shafts, pushed together:2.513" Between shafts, pushed apart: 2.524" pulley shaft diameter .623" bull shaft diameter 1.331" (This is less than original since I turned it down to remove wear when I fitted new bushes) Any inconsistencies are no doubt measurement error, or possibly due to the difficulty of consistently pushing the shafts together or apart to take up slack. regards John ------- Date: Wed, 03 Dec 2003 03:55:38 +0000 From: "Billy Hood" Subject: Gib material for AMMCO head I am new to this list and purchased a really clean/no wear 7" AMMCO about 6 months ago. It is complete except for the vice. I welded a stand for it and cleaned and lubed it tonight. It is missing the gib insert strip on the head elevation. Can I use some flat bar stock such as oil or water hardening stock? Should this be softer steel. What are your recommendations. I can buy the bar in the correct thickness and width -- this would be easier as my mill is in the shop at the farm and not set up currently. Now that it is mounted, I "need" to make chips pronto. I am in NE Texas at Whitehouse and farm and do commercial/AG construction for a living. I am very active in restoring and collecting antique farm tractors. I have taught welding on college level and just about work on anything without wings. Thanks, Bill ------- Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2003 09:44:31 -0800 (PST) From: Karla Sullivan Subject: Re: Gib material for AMMCO head I used some bronze I got from McMaster on my table gib which was missing when I got my AMMCO; the other gibs on the machine look like steel, but the bronze seems to work good. ------- Date: Thu, 04 Dec 2003 10:10:41 -0000 From: "knives01us" Subject: Re: Gib material for AMMCO head I have succesfully used mild steel for gibs on several machines that have been in service for over 10 years since with no problems. Regular hardware store hot rolled bar, but I cleaned it up on a surface grinder. The key here is that the rest of the sliding surfaces are cast iron. If you don't have access to a surface grinder it might be more convenient to use precision ground oil or water hardening stock, but the gib doesn't need to be heat treated. It doesn't need to be highly finished either, just flat. Proper bearing for a machine tool with cast iron sliding surfaces is 10-20 points per inch. In the old days they were scraped for alignment & bearing, and the depressions between bearing points retained oil. ------- Date: Wed, 07 Jan 2004 03:42:09 +0000 From: "Billy Hood" Subject: Cutting intenal keyway I got my 7" AMMCO going last night by building a gib for the swivel head. I squared up a block of steel 4x6 just to see it make chips. I have not run a shaper since 1961, so some things are not too fresh in my memory. I need to bore out a sheave for my shop air compressor to 1/ 1/4 and cut a keyway. I could go to the bearing supply and buy one, but this goes against my raisin'. I thought I could make a tool holder that holds a tool similiar to a boring tool and ground to the width of the keyway plus a "smidgen". What angle from the bore of the sheave should the bid address the keyway slot? I am open to suggestions. I have a couple of shaper reprints, but they don't address this to my satisfaction. Thanks Bill [NOTE TO FILE: Shaper details moved to survey list at start of this file.] ------- Subject: Shaper Drive Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2004 21:15:18 -0600 From: J. R. Williams To: Art Volz Art: With all the great machinist's minds devising methods for repair/replacement of shaper drives with the fiber gear, I would suggest machining some timing belt pulleys of suitable diameter and installing an internal belt drive. The belts are plenty strong as they can handle the pulsating forces of an engines camshaft drive. An automotive spring loaded belt tensioner would solve the tension problem. It does not take fancy grinding tools to make a suitable groove tool. I have machined several pulleys, of different sizes, using a 'home made' fly cutter. My "Tree" milling machine uses the timing belt drives. Comments?? Joe ------- Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2004 19:52:23 -0600 From: "J. R. Williams" Subject: [Fwd: Shaper Drive] This is a good way to update a shaper drive that has a gear tooth problem. The belts have sufficient strength and will run quiet and not require lubrication as would a chain. Just a passing thought. Joe Williams ------- Date: Mon, 02 Feb 2004 08:40:30 -0600 From: xlch58x~xxswbell.net Subject: Re: AMMCO parts I have an old Ammco shaper that I bought years ago for $200. Was coming back home from out of town and a wreck on the highway had the interstate backed up for miles. I pulled off the road and got something to eat at the Dairy Queen and read the local classified paper. I met the guy, got it loaded up and back to the highway before the wreck was cleared. It was in perfect condition, from the local high school, and came on a beautiful oak cabinet makers bench with seven lockable drawers. Unfortunately, I managed to subsequently bust a handle, the tray on the back of the ram and the ratchet mechanism through various shop mishaps. So far, I have been able to repair everything. Regarding the bull gear, helical gears actually create a side load unless run in pairs, so the advantage of the helical cut gear in the Ammco is that it runs quieter and does not transmit the minute pulses as the gear teeth engage. Spur gears could give you a slightly rougher finish. Charles ------- Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 02:27:11 -0000 From: "oldarnmonger" Subject: Newbie here - Intro Was: AMMCO shaper FS in Cleveland, OH area I just jumped in this group and wanted to say hello. I'm a relative newbie to machining. Other than a shaper, my other useful metal working machines are a 7 1/2" Dalton lathe (mid 1920's vintage) and a 1910 W.F. & J. Barnes 20" drill press - fully restored. Woodworking and blacksmithing are my other hobby interests. It seems that I wound up buying the AMMCO 7" that Jeff mentioned below. BTW - The reason for the odd colored vise is because it had been cracked at some point, right where the fixed jaw meets the bottom, and it's welded back together. You can't tell unless you flip it over. (And no, I didn't notice this until after I bought it and disassembled it for cleaning and lube.) I'm not sure I want to know what the guy did to snap a vise jaw off this poor thing! I'm sure it's not as strong as it was originally and probably will need to be replaced at some point, but I'll use it until I find a better one. At least it seems to have parallel jaws that are perpendicular to the bed, as far as I can measure. The bronze slide bearing in the arm that moves the ram was worn oblong and deeply scored on the inside, as was the pin on the eccentric from the bull gear. I turned down the pin by about .015" to remove most of the scoring and put it back into round. I'm about 85% finished making a new bronze bearing that will be bored to fit the reduced pin diameter. (That's a lot of work with a file staring with a hunk of 1.25" dia. x 3" round stock!). It sure will be nice to get this machine running so I never have to do *that* again. The ram locking handle on the top was probably broken and brazed back together at some point, but it looks fine and works well. I'm not gonna sweat about that. It does seem to be in good shape otherwise. The original paint is near perfect and the ways, lead screws/nuts and table are all as perfect as can be expected for its age. I suppose that I'm now one of hundreds looking for a side cover plate. I'll just sit on my hands and wait in line. I'm going to fabricate a new countershaft and motor mount. Anyone got any slick ideas that will minimize the footprint and otherwise wasted bench space behind the machine? I'd like to squeeze the whole works into a small bench space.I'll post a picture or 2 when it makes some chips. I hope to be able to eventually contribute to this group. In the meantime, I'll probably have plenty of stoopid questions. Andy Sargent Cleveland http://andy.sargent.net ------- Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 05:28:10 -0000 From: "dreilanderecht" Subject: Re: Newbie here - Intro Was: AMMCO shaper FS in Cleveland, OH area OK, for the record we need to know the serial number. (of course I'm hoping it won't turn out to be earlier than mine!) Also does it have the table elevating screw under the bench or on the side? (with the bevel gears) I guess since you don't have the drive, you won't know if it was the type that mounted on the column or the older type that mounted on the table. Is it labelled 6 inch or seven inch? Rockwell or Ammco? Don't worry about the door, Art will have got that! Anyway, the reason it is missing is that they are a nuisance, so they get left off. (Arts collection of shaper doors is legendary, possibly even mythical. Compasses all over Texas point the wrong way due to the mass of iron somewhere near Houston. Still, I can't criticise, my own shaper collection seems to have reached critical mass.) I take it the filing is to make a whole new die block from the bar. One approach would have been to use a flycutter in the lathe. Such a flycutter can be as simple as a short boring bar held in the four jaw chuck. The bit needs to be the angled type so it sticks beyond the bar and can be sharpened to suit. The job is clamped onto the saddle, with blocks if necessary to get the height right. Of course, not all lathes lend themselves to this, the slotted table was one reason why the Myford has always been popular with Model Engineers regards John ------- Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 03:52:43 -0000 From: "oldarnmonger" Subject: Re: Newbie here "Don Kinzer" wrote: > I'm confused. Why use a file when you have a lathe? Perhaps I'm > missing something. Is the bearing not cylindrical? It's kinda confusing... Let me try again: The bearing I'm referring to is rectangular, about 1" X 3/4" X 1-1/2" long with a 1/2" hole bored through the short dimension. The pin from the eccentric on the bull gear rotates in the bored hole. The whole thing slides up and down in the center slot of the cast iron arm that moves the ram back and forth. The inside and outside are both bearing on moving surfaces. Make sense? Andy Sargent Cleveland ------- Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 06:07:22 -0000 From: "Don Kinzer" Subject: Re: Newbie here > Make sense? Indeed. I wasn't thinking about that one. I was envisioning the bearing that the ram lever pivots on (at the bottom). Never mind. ------- Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 00:32:37 -0000 From: "oldarnmonger" Subject: Re: Newbie here - AMMCO 7" shaper in Cleveland [NOTE TO FILE: details moved to survey results near top of this file.] You're right about me bein' clueless about the drive components. It has only the 4 step vee belt pulley on the drive shaft. No countershaft, no motor. There are absolutely NO holes on the rear of the main casting or the base casting. I'd have to assume that the motor and countershaft assembly mounted separately behind the unit. As for making the parts - I'm afraid that my lathe experience is limited to mostly cylindrical objects. (And they're still very challenging.) I'm sure most on this list would know several easier ways to turn a cylindrical bar into a rectangular bar, and could have it done in under an hour, but not this newbie. Nope. It's file work for this pup. Besides being dense, I'm just learning. I'm sure I'll eventually laugh (like you guys - right now) at this primative method, but A) I haven't got a fly cutter, B) My lathe is bare bones essential. I wouldn't know how to mount a boring bar in a 4 jaw lathe chuck in the way I think you've described, or mount the work on the cross slide so it would actually stay put, and C) Hey - I bought the shaper to do this kind of work! Don't burst my bubble and tell me I don't really need this thing! I'm just kinda boot-strapping my machine by hand. I'll be patient and try to enjoy the slow and therapudic approach to metal removal until I get a little more experience. Thanks for the helpful suggestions though. I really do appreciate any education I can get in this area. Andy Sargent Cleveland ------- Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 18:11:43 -0000 From: "dreilanderecht" Subject: Re: Newbie here - AMMCO 7" shaper in Cleveland Well, it is true that lathes are very versatile, and if you can't do it in a lathe then you can always do it by hand. The lathe ends up limited in size, which is why we like machines meant for the job...you can make a smallish object square using a 4 jaw chuck, you can do a larger one using the flycutter approach, but a shaper will do either a lot easier, and with a nicer finish than the flycutter would give. The old timers did everything with the chisel and file, finishing up with a hand scraper, and you can actually do wonderfully accurate work like that, given time. regards John ------- Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 22:16:48 -0000 From: volzmechatronicx~xxyahoo.com Subject: Re: vices > The Ammco vise file is an exe file that seems to include the > solidworks viewer. I can only see the layout page. Is there another > file or do I need to do something special to see the other pages. > Thanks John Walker John-- You first have to download the FREE viewer from http://www.solidworks.com/edrawings . Just do it...and be happy! Then return to "files" here and click on the .exe file. I've copied this file to a ZIP for easy viewing when I'm not on-line. The layout page will open with a rectangular "how to use the viewer" overlay. Read it if you want...or read it later. I click on its "bye-bye" button. Now you can see the layout page. Click on "animate" and you're on your way--foreward or backward as you click onto the "arrows". If you print out a page, be sure to set the "shade" so that the print isn't shaded eating up a lot of ink. The only problem I've had with the prints is that some of them have some of the dimensioning data run off the page--you'll have to manually annotate those sheets that need it--easy to do. If this doesn't work, you have to be using a MacIntosh perverted computer or a Deutschland uber Alles Atari. Real shaper fellas only use IBM clones. :-) Art (Houston) ------- Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 22:52:21 -0000 From: "JohnW" Subject: Re: vices Art, the file already contains the viewer. I just hadn't thought to try animate. Worked fine but lots of pages to print out. I think I'll try to scale it for my brand spankin new Gingery shaper. Thanks John ------- Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2004 22:37:40 -0000 From: "dreilanderecht" Subject: Re: Progress Update - 7" Ammco refurb Hi Andy, my Ammco has the following sizes. This is for the early model with a flat belt drive and a three step pulley, and a 50Hz motor...for a 60Hz motor I would expect the motor pulley to be 20% smaller, which would be two inch. motor 2.5" C/shaft 8" (both outside diameter) Step pullies 2 and 5/8 inch, 3 and 3/8 inch, 4 and 1/8 inch. Same on the machine, but the other way around of course. I would expect that you could just make a step pulley the same as the one you have. My countershaft unit has an adjustment for belt tension, two screws that pull the unit away to tighten the belt. It does not need adjusting very often, like maybe once in 15 or so years. The belt can be pulled up onto the next step without adjusting the tension. My belt came with the machine, and I have been using it for again, over 15 years. It is a good flat leather belt, lap glued at the join. (The ends have been feathered down.) The belt will jump off when the machine is overloaded, which is a good thing. Half a horsepower is plenty, I wouldn't go for any more and would expect that a third would be enough. The manual says 40 to 180 strokes per minute for the four step machine, I would not aim to make it go any faster than that. If you are making a pulley for the countershaft, make sure you copy the crowning on the other one, this is what helps keep the belt in place. (The pulley is not flat, it is a slightly bigger diameter in the middle.) Hope this helps regards John ------- Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2004 23:17:19 -0000 From: volzmechatronicx~xxyahoo.com Subject: Speeds, Feeds, and DOCs wuz Re: Progress Update - 7" Ammco refurb Andy--The AMMCO shaper came from the factory with 4 speeds: 40, 70, 115, and 180 strokes per minute driven by a 1725rpm motor. With that info and the 4-stepped pullies you have available (if any) you should be able to determine the speeds possible by varying the motor pulley size. If you don't have any pulleys, then you'll most likely have to use off-the-shelf stock pulleys as are made my Chicago Die Casting and others. Wholesale Tool ( http://www.wttool.com ) has five different 4-step CDC pulleys with various OD's. There's another way of looking at it too...from the perspective of the tool cutting the metal: where available ramming speeds are important...and then going backwards towards the motor and devising a pulley reduction system that provides the speeds required. This is strangely sometimes called "reverse engineering"...but MOT "RPN". :-) Your AMMCO shaper is a HSS tool material type shaper. It was not designed to cut at the speeds required by carbide tooling. Each work material has different cutting speeds for the type tool material used. The best source for determining what cutting speeds to use is the 2-volume set of the "Machining Data Handbook", a copy of which may be in a college library near where you live and where you can go to copy the pages for "Planing" (Shaping). Here in Houston a copy is in the stacks at the University of Houston; when I taught at North Harris College I had a set placed in the "Reserve" section of their college library--it's much closer for me to use, being only 10 minutes away by van...or slightly longer if I jog. For home use I have copies of both the first and second editions to which I am now referring. Let's say you want to shape medium carbon steel--say 1040--with a hardness of between 125 to 175 BHN and that it is hot rolled, normalized, annealed, or cold drawn. Recommended starting cutting data for this material, using M2 or M3 HSS cutters, is: Roughing Cut: --Max DOC .500 --Speed 40 fpm --Feed .060 in/stroke Medium Cut --Max DOC .100 --Speed 65 fpm --Feed .0050 in/stroke Finish Cut --Max DOC .005 --Speed 45fpm --Feed 3/4 the width of a square nose finishing tool Note that the speed is for the ram stroke not for the faster retract stroke. Also note that you can't cut more metal--MRR Metal Removal Rate--than you motor's horsepower and machine efficiency will allow. A rule of thumb to keep behind your eyeballs is that it takes about 1 horsepower, continuously applied, to remove 1 cubic inch of plain carbon or alloy steel per minute with sharp HSS OR Carbide tools--a dull tool takes more horsepower (actually about 1.1 cu-in/min for a sharp tool and 1.4 cu-in/min for a dull tool cutting a steel with 85- 200 BHN hardness). This rate is for a shaper that is 80% efficient in delivering its motor's horsepower to the cutting tool. A crank drive shaper with "typical" 2/3rds ramming and 1/3rds retrack cycle times, would only deliver to its tool 2/3rds of its available horsepower, further reduced by its efficiency rating, per minute. You thus would also need to adjust your DOC to within the limits of the horsepower your shaper has remaining (efficiency applied) at the tool. I posted a while back the pulley reduction system I have on my Lewis- 10--let me see if I can relocate that Msg for comparison. It still is as I bought it. When computing pulley reduction speeds, be sure to use Pitch Diameters (PD) and NOT Outside Diameters (OD). Wholesale Tool ( http://www.wttool.com ) carries Chicago Die Casting pulleys with listed pitch diameters of their pulleys being 0.25 inches less in diameter than their corresponding OD's. I would use extreme caution in using a motor as large as 1/2HP as you currently intend to do. The standard 28 lb motor that came with the factory AMMCO's was only 1/4 horsepower; the maximum horsepower recommended by AMMCO was 1/3rd. Used 1/4 horsepower motors are a dime a dozen--I have a 1/4 hp motor driving my larger, all cast iron, Lewis-10. Motors are a helluva lot cheaper than replacing the laminated Bakelite bullgear in your AMMCO...and first you have to find one. Good luck in finding one...or even in finding someone to cut a spiral toothed bullgear for you and out of the correct phenolic laminate. Protect your bullgear at all cost...and from all enemies. Just saw some surplus 1/4hp motors in Surplus Center's 2004 catalog; such motors are always on eBay as well. Might even consider a 3- phase with a VFD speed controller...if you wanna ride first class. Art (Houston) ------- Date: Thu, 20 May 2004 18:02:19 -0000 From: "hondo402001" Subject: ammco shaper travel adjustment! with all the talent out there I know I'm going to get help. the nut on the inside that you loosen to adjust the travel of the ram comes off easy but no matter what I do I can't get it to slide free to adjust the travel...help!! help!! ------- Date: Fri, 21 May 2004 00:12:56 -0000 From: "dreilanderecht" Subject: Re: ammco shaper travel adjustment! You don't loosen the nut on the inside! You loosen the square on the end of the bull gear shaft, on the outside. This releases a dovetail slide with the crankpin on it so that it can slide to the new stroke. So the drill is: 1/ Loosen the square shaft with the crank handle. Should not need to be excessively tight, and does not need to be undone far, no more than half a turn. 2/ Reach in through the door and slide the crankpin to the desired stroke. Tighten squared shaft 3/ Pull over by hand to check the stroke. Repeat 2 and 3 until satisfied. 4/ Fully tighten squared shaft..I give the crank a thump with the palm of my hand so it tightens against the inertia of the machine. It is not necessary to lock the machine against rotating. If when you have loosened the squared shaft the crankpin will not move try the following: 1/ It is easiest to move the crankpin when the slotted arm is vertical and the crankpin at the top. Pull the machine around by the belts to this position. 2/ If the pin still is not free, try giving the end of the squared shaft a jolt with a wooden mallet or at most a copper hammer to unstick the two parts of the dovetail slide. If it is stuck worse than this will free, take the machine down and clean it up...put the dovetail slide back together with a bit of grease. Final safety note...You really don't want the machine to leap into life while your hand is inside adjusting the crank. Mine originally had a toggle switch (not original), I have changed it to a proper no volt release with red and green buttons, designed to be safe against accidental operation. regards John ------- Date: Thu, 01 Jul 2004 21:09:50 -0000 From: "hondo402001" Subject: 7"shaper (ammco) ram travel Hey...success!! I got the brass block loose..aparently it set for a long time without a change in ram adjustment and it froze on the shaft. Its loose now and still hard to move up and down but I think it will eventually loosen up where it will move up and down easier..It would not have got it done without you guys help thanks again. hondo ------- Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2004 02:33:09 -0000 From: "Chris Boyer" Subject: AMMCO shaper Hello all. Been watching for a while. Picked up an AMMCO shaper Friday. Already in the cleanup process. Looked through the archives but still some questions. Is there any more data needed for these machines? If so to who and or where do I send it? Where can I obtain a copy of the manual? looked on the pix site in the links section but the manual is no longer availavle from that link? PDF is fine or a simple readable photocopy?? Yes the bull gear is usable :) it has one small chip in 2 teeth. There are some holes drilled on each side of the gear? one contains a metal pin that sticks out. I suspect the damaged area on the gear had one of these pins as there is a hole there? What are the pins for? Are they supposed to be there? Any good PIX of the door? I know I can make one if I can see what one (original) is supposed to look like. Thanks Chris :) ------- Sunday, August 22, 2004 6:29 PM Metal_Shapersx~xxyahoogroups.com Re: AMMCO shaper >>>Been watching for a while. Picked up an AMMCO shaper Friday. Already in the cleanup process. Looked through the archives but still some questions. Is there any more data needed for these machines? If so to who and or where do I send it? Where can I obtain a copy of the manual? looked on the pix site in the links section but the manual is no longer availavle from that link? PDF is fine or a simple readable photocopy?? Yes the bull gear is usable :) it has one small chip in 2 teeth. There are some holes drilled on each side of the gear? one contains a metal pin that sticks out. I suspect the damaged area on the gear had one of these pins as there is a hole there? What are the pins for? Are they supposed to be there? Any good PIX of the door? I know I can make one if I can see what one (original) is supposed to look like. Thanks Chris :) <<< Hi Chris The details of your particular machine can simply be posted here. Include serial number, original colour, 6 or 7" designation, type of pulley system (usually 3 flat-belt or 4 v-belt) and any other markings or clues to origin. It is unlikely that much will really be gained regarding the mystery of production dates until a few original dated sales slips turn up with the machines. Many members here have a copy of the manual. Just send me your snail address off group and I will forward photocopies of two 1950's Delta manuals that together will answer "most" of your questions. Free, absolutely. I say "most" because your question about the pin in the bull gear is a new one on me. My bull gear has a pin near the rim in line with part of the central drive mechanism and likely served as a limit stop on adjustments. Anyone have some other specific documentary reference to this pin's use? [Someone else confirmed its use as a limit stop -- sorry, lost their identity during a computer crash.] It is probably not a coincidence that your chipped teeth are near this pin. My only chip is the outer edge of the one tooth closest to this metal pin. Fortunately AMMCO's bull gear form engages several teeth at once so small chips do not hurt performance. The ultimate source of info on shaper doors is Art in Houston. He has nearly every door ever made. No I do not mean an example of the door from every shaper type, I mean nearly every door from every shaper type, probably including your original door :-) Mine came without a door and I have never replaced it. Reading the archives, you will find its primary safety purpose is to keep out cats looking for an overnight bed. My dogs are bigger, and smarter, than that. If I did make a door, it would not be a copy of the original. I would cut a disk of plexiglass to fit into the hole and glue it to another larger disk of plexiglass that overlaps the hole by about 3/4 inch. Then drill three shallow holes in the underside of the overlap and glue round supermagnets in them (available in craft stores). A small part of the overlapping flange may be cut away to clear the ram's casting bulge above the door hole. Whatever you do, do not make a fancy door, otherwise it will disappear the next time Art is in town ;-) Steve -- in Thunder Bay, Ontario, Canada -------- Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 16:21:55 -0400 From: "Chris Boyer \(CB\)" Subject: Re: Re: AMMCO shaper [Chris' shaper data moved to survey area at start of this file.] Thanks Steve The bull gear is actually chipped 180d from the pin location. There is a hole where a pin may have been in the chipped area. There is also a hole 90d from the pin. There are 2 holes on the other side as well. It is useable but am looking into repairing it best I can. You are correct the door wouldn't spend much time on the machine. Most machines I own are working not display, but I do like to collect as many of the original parts as possible even if they live in a drawer or on the wall. A see through door would fascinate my son. At least keep his fingers from wandering inside. Art ha ;) well I can add him to the list of friends that "borrow" things when they stop by VBG. Off to find "another" set of pin punches to finish the tear down. Lots of interesting things on your site. Thanks Chris ------- Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 21:19:36 -0000 From: volzmechatronicx~xxyahoo.com Subject: Re: AMMCO shaper Chris-- It's a real simple door to either fab or to cast a replica out of low-shrink ZA-12. I don't have a AMMCO door yet, but, if I did, I'd make you a dimensioned sketch so you could roll your own. The Lodge skillet trick that I did for Joe's Logan, or the one I did for Mario's "Lodge-Lewis", wouldn't work on an AMMCO: too thick. Art (Houston) ------- Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2004 14:54:32 -0000 From: "ammcoman2" Subject: Ammco Shaper After using my 6" Ammco for about a year and a half, I've decided to go ahead and overhaul it (watching too much TV!). Most of the bushings and links have too much play in them. I have found out that Boston Gear has the 1 3/8" ID x 1 1/2" OD Bull gear shaft bushing and all the others appear to be standard sizes so bushing replacement should ok. I'll make new shafts/sleeves for the other items such as the rocker arm link. The info posted on this board re stripping and cleaning up the paintwork has been extremely invaluable and I feel comfortable in doing this part. The only potential questionable area is how I fix the wear on the crossrail. I have picked up a straightedge and a master precision level so the measuring should be ok but the fixing could be a bear. Best regards, Geoff K ------- Date: Sun, 09 Jan 2005 15:08:04 -0000 From: "Geoff Kingma" Subject: Ammco 6" - date code? I am in the process of rebuilding my shaper and have it stripped down. New bushings (available from Boston Gear)for the bull gear and pinion shafts and new/remade bushings for all the indexing components have been installed. The cross slide top bearing surface has been machined/scraped - it was out by about 0.004" end to end. I still have to fix the wear on the Ram V-ways and their mating parts. Anyway, I was getting the various parts ready for repainting and noticed on the Ram guard the following numbers on the underside: "017 40". They are about 1/4" high and were almost illegible due to the paint accumulation. Could this be the 17th day of 1940? I have not yet found any numbers on the other castings. My shaper has the serial number SH-1111019 and was originally painted in a very dark (almost charcoal)grey. The instruction sheet and parts list that I received from the previous owner has the following on the front page: "7" Precision Shaper ---- for serial numbers beginning with SH-1111500". It is dated December, 1941, and denotes the side crank model with 3 oilers on each side of the ram (mine has one on each side but I have now drilled the extra holes and will fit the extra oil covers - more oil is always better). So, would Ammco have made aprox. 1000 shapers between Jan 1940 and Dec 1941 (or sometime soon thereafter)? What I don't know is how long the castings lay around before machining started. Any thoughts from the historians amongst the members? Regards, Geoff P.S. I have received a photo of a logo for the door and have asked my son to "pretty" it up for reproduction as he is in this field. Will let you know when it is ready and will send a copy to those who are interested. ------- Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 19:11:17 -0000 From: "stevetbon1" Subject: Re: Ammco 6" - date code? Hi Geoff My AMMCO (6"-plated flat-belt under-table-crank) has a serial number exactly 12 after yours. So I went down and took off the ram guard and found the same stamped "017 40" buried under the paint. [This is not the very obvious raised part number, which is S15-3 on mine.] The "40" part of that stamped number could well be a year stamping. Perhaps if others took off their ram guards and looked, we would have a new bunch of numbers to help solve, or further complicate, the AMMCO dates of manufacture. [There is no way you can read the overpainted number, if any, without taking the ram guard off.] The smallest serial number 7" plated AMMCO anyone has reported to me is SH164492 and that numerical series does not seem in tune with your found paperwork saying the 7" shapers will start at 1111500, with 7 digits. There are several 7" models with 6 digits in the file AMMCO Shaper at http://www.janellestudio.com/metal/ before others with 7 digit serial numbers appear. Perhaps this date stuff, while interesting to many, has no logical solution. But lots of clues. Regards Steve -- in Thunder Bay, Ontario, Canada ------- Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 22:28:50 -0000 From: "joe_sozanski" Subject: Re: Ammco 6" - date code? Many years ago it was a practice to take castings outdoors expose them to the weather and let them age! They weren't bothered by inventory in the way they are today. I don't know how long the aging process was but if they didn't need the casting it sat outside. They machine much better! When I first got hired they were still using old castings that had been outdoors for a couple years or more. They were in the process of putting in electric furnaces at the foundry when I got hired and there was a difference in old and new castings! Joe ------- Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 17:34:01 -0500 From: "fred eisner" Subject: RE: Re: Ammco 6" - date code? As far as i know castings were left outside for 2 - 3 years. After a year or so they were brought in and partially machined; then they were taken outside for another year or so. This aged the casting and relieved it of all stresses; when it was machined to final size it was totally dead with no stresses at all. Ah the good old days when things were done right. Now castings are artifically aged for 30 seconds and they come from China and are "PERFECT". just my 2 cents worth fred ------- Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 00:00:47 -0000 From: "Geoff Kingma" Subject: Re: Ammco 6" - date code? I wonder if the plan for the company was to designate the 7" unit with serial numbers beginning with 1111500 but, with the onset of war production, they changed their minds or were told to do so by the Defense Procurement Office (or whatever it was called). Anyway, I'll scan the front page I referred to and send it to you. I also realized I goofed with the numbers when I mentioned 1000 shapers - it should have been about 500 - which perhaps has no relevance. I sent the message BMC (before morning coffee!). Re the logo - I'll put you on the list. Just finished making a new rocker arm shoe from 660 bronze - man, is that stuff tough! The old one had been beaten mercilessly with a hammer and there was about 0.005" clearance between it and the rocker arm. Now just the ram ways and I'll be complete machining-wise. Cheers, Geoff ------- NOTE TO FILE: I see from the postings about aging machine castings that a date stamp, if done soon after the actual pour, maybe long before the date the part is finished; and then even the part-finished-machining-date may be well before that specific part gets assembled into a shaper. This aging process was definitely used for wood planes' cast iron bodies, which spent at least one winter rusting outside their factories. So it makes sense for bigger machines. I suspect the ram guard, because it has no great need for precision, may have spent less time outside before becoming acceptably aged for machining. Hence a 1940 casting of a ram guard could well have been incorporated into a 1940 or 1941 shaper. I think we can reasonably assume from Geoff's document and the casting stamp that our particular two machines were likely assembled in 1940 or 1941. Without more factory serial number records or original sales receipts for specific serial numbers, perhaps that is as close as we will get to "knowing for sure". (For now.) ------- Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2005 16:01:50 -0600 From: "Scott S. Logan" Subject: New Scans Art sent me some original Ammco manuals, and I scanned them. Due to the size, I can not upload them to the group, but I have put them on our web site. They are at: http://lathe.com/catalogs They are all PDF files. Ammco 7" Shaper Color 17,578KB (Original AMMCO 8 page minimal manual) Ammco 7" Shaper Gray Scale 11,491KB Delta/Milwaukee 7" Shaper Color 14,258KB (AMMCO 8 page manual with Delta name) Delta/Milwaukee 7" Shaper Gray Scale 8,982KB Delta/Milwaukee 7" Shaper Instructions Color 39,883KB (20 page 1951 version) Delta/Milwaukee 7" Shaper Instructions Gray Scale 17,318KB I know the sizes are pretty big, but these are high resolution scans. If anyone wants a laser printed copy, in color, heavy stock paper, bound with clear cover the price is $15 each, plus $5 postage within the US. ------- NOTE TO FILE: Scott's efforts are very much appreciated; thank you, Sir. Thanks to Art also. Some suggestions to save download time, paper, and ink: -- Choose to save or print the smaller files for the gray scale versions. -- Some scanned pages are on the dark side and you might want to set your printer to use less ink on these pages. -- First print the AMMCO gray scale manual, which is more of a sales brochure but contains very useful pictures and information. -- It may not be worth printing the first Delta/Milwaukee version also, as only the maker's name and a very few details change in the text from the AMMCO one above (but do print it if you want a full set). -- Then print the last Delta/Milwaukee gray scale. You might want to print selected pages as this 20 page scan includes a couple of blank pages and the rear cover. Parts list and much more really good info. ------- Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 00:56:50 -0000 From: "Geoff Kingma" Subject: Ammco Shaper Rebuild I have just completed a rebuild of my Ammco 6" shaper. Photos have been posted in "Metal_shaper_pix" under "Ammco 6 inch - Geoff Kingma". The logo on the door was recreated by my son from a photo kindly sent to me by Cecil Walker, who has an original unrestored machine. Some members have received copies of this logo as I had mentioned it in a post a while back. I can easily mail out more if anyone else is interested. The shaper worked before but made quite a noise clanking back and forth. I found that the crossrail was skew and the main body was at an angle to the base. As well, the ram ways were 0.012" wider at the front compared to the back so adjusting the gibs was a tad difficult! All the bushings (available from Boston Gear) and most of the shafts were replaced and the cross feed eccentric was rebored and sleeved. A new rocker arm shoe was made as the previous one had been attacked by a hammer. After replacing the two bushes for the pinion shaft, I found that the one opposite to the drive side was located 0.017" lower. Putting the main frame on my Taig Mill to rebore the hole was a trifle tricky but worked out well. The frame was about 0.003" out of vertical in 4" and the top of the cross- rail had been machined parallel to the table support. This resulted in the crossrail V-way on the bottom not being parallel to the top. Re-machining this in the Taig was fun as the length of the part exceeded the mill travel. I found original "crud" between the base and frame had caused the mis-alignment. I can only guess that this shaper (circa 1940 - 41) was made after a long weekend! The final machining of the ram and v-ways was done on a friend's mill. The cost of the dovetail cutter was almost 25% of the price I paid for the shaper! Had to make a new gib as the old was 0.007" thinner in the middle compared to the ends. New oilers were installed and I added the extra ones on the V-ways per the 7" model as it was clear that the single ones on each side are inadequate. After repainting with a homemade mix of Varathane Liquid Plastic grey with a touch of blue added (well a fairly big touch), assembly could finally begin. All the surfaces were checked and scraped which is quite a learning experience. I then used the shaper to machine the table surface after checking how much it was out of true. What a difference now. The only noise is the motor humming and the click/hiss as it peels metal. It is able to cut front to back within 0.002" over 6" and is less than 0.001" side to side. It was a fun project and I am now a very happy camper. I figure that with proper lubrication which it lacked in the past, this baby is good for another 50 years. Regards, Geoff ------- Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 12:30:21 -0000 From: "eng4turns" Subject: Re: Ammco Shaper Rebuild Lovely job, Geoff. Many hours of careful work there. I'm in the middle of the same level of rebuild with a Porter-Cable AS-7. I've found the same things-all bushings require replacing, all ways are being rescraped, new cross-feed screw made, all alignments being restored. Quite a job but it's lots of fun. In addition, I have to cast a new pulley shoud. Also, I am creating a pressurised lubrication system for all the bushings and ram ways, being made from a Kawaski 900 oil pump and I'm preparing to cast an aluminum oil sump. Again, great job. Ed ------- Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 18:32:20 -0000 From: "Art Volz" Subject: Re: A Cabinet for Lewie In Metal_Shapersx~xxyahoogroups.com, rammerc... wrote: > Art, > If someone really wanted the dimensions I could uncover mine and get a > few. The brass hardware is identical to old double hung sash window > lifts available from Home Depot. Mine has the original wheels and iron > handle. Several other members have the cabinets so there shouldn't be > any problem getting help. Rick Rick-- Thanx, however, I think that if someone really wanted the dimensions they would use the information sources that I and Scott have already provided. If they can't do that, then maybe they don't need to make a cabinet, either for their AMMCO or other shaper or machine tool. It cost me a lot of time, and money when I finally found them, to acquire the documents--both descriptive and illustrated sales brochures and the instruction manual itself--and then to mail them to Scott who took the time and effort and a large part of his web site to post them on line in very high quality PDF files. And then there was the cost of securely mailing them back and forth to include the insurance. I and Scott have both gone way out of our way to bring this information FREE to the AMMCO folks. Most people that acquire original documents only make copies for sale and never donate them for FREE. I and Scott did. In the documents are everything, except for a description of carcass construction, for making a cabinet clone. But, first, one would have to take the time and effort to download the two files where the information is, and, because they are of high quality, either a DSL connection (like I and Scott both have) or leaving the computer on during nitey-nite time is required, but then you have the poop. In the sales brochure-- http://www.lathe.com/catalogs/DeltaMilw7ShaperGS.pdf -- are numerious fotos of the cabinet AND the basic dimensions. In the Instruction Manual-- http://www.lathe.com/catalogs/DeltaMilw7ShaperInstrGS.pdf is a magical ISOMETRIC (NOT metric) Drawing of the shaper cabinet. As everyone knows, Isometric Drawings are dimensionally measureable/scaleable in X, Y, and Z axis directions and in lines parallel to these axes. Only one more element is needed to convert these base dimensions plus the isometric drawing to a dimensioned drawing: a pair of proportional dividers. Neither of mine were cheap (I lost one thru the years) when I bought them new, but, now, there's eBay. I just checked eBay and 4 dividers are listed at keywords "proportional divider" and another 2 at "proportional dividers". That should be enuf information, but a little work and effort and time--perhaps knowledge as well--is still needed by the "cabinet builder". That's good and as it should be. Hints as to the carcass construction are given in both the fotos and in the isometric drawing. Rick, correct me if I'm wrong, but the carcass appears structurally to be constructed as follows: The square legs are the main structural element and, in effect, function as stiles in the four corners. Note the 4 bolts on each of the legs, 2 near the top of each leg and 2 near the bottom of each leg and each pair at 90 degrees to each other. What this appears to be is the major horizontal "glue" holding everything together: long threaded rods with nuts, washers, & lock washers at each end. These threaded rods are held in fixed position by rails, top and bottom, for both sides and front and back. Each rail has a cut tenon on each end that fits into the leg mortises. Note also that the front has the doors attached to either the legs or the central auxiliary stile. The back probably has two additional auxiliary stiles. The stiles, legs, and rails have an inner groove or rabbet to retain the plywood flat panels. Within the cabinet are shelves and a drawer support: there are many ways to effect these features. The holes on the cabinet top should aline with mounting holes on the base of the shaper. Scale the holes in the drawing first using the proportional divider and compare with the mounting holes on the bottom of the shaper that will be mounted on the cabinet. And...there you have it. [later] Back to reverse engineering the AMMCO shaper cabinet--one more tip. Several years ago I reverse engineered the headstock bearing and spindle for a Myford ML-7 lathe. I found a sectioned drawing in the Super-7 book that I blew up to full scale using some basic dimensional data that I had. I KNEW I had it right when the numbers started shooting off of the page in FRACTIONS as the engineers had designed it, not in decimals. What I did find out was that the motor for which it was designed and equipped ran at about 1450 RPM on 50 cycles-per-second in England, ran at 60 cycles here at about 1750 RPM. When the lathe was then set for highest spindle speed it was, according to the calcs I made using data downloaded from the files at Loganact for Oillube impregnated sintered bronze bearings, running too fast and would, at that speed, rapidly wear out the bearing. At 50 cycles and max speed in England, however, the bearing was safe. Fractions allowed for a most likely exact dimensional drawing of this bearing to be made. The AMMCO cabinet, as well, was most likely desiged "fractionally"-- the drawing dimensions will be correct when such fractions are measured. Art (Houston) ------- Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 18:57:29 -0400 From: "S or J" Subject: Early AMMCO 6 Inch Shaper Hi Folks. I would like to thank Jeff Mendoza, and Geoff Kingma, for bringing the following AMMCO 6 inch shaper on eBay to my attention. The auction for this shaper is [was]item number 7516172123 and was described as: USED AMMCO 6" WORKING METAL SHAPER WITH CABNET 115VAC There are a great many good pictures associated with this sale that may be useful to those interested in AMMCOs or looking for a cabinet design. [Sorry Art, no door there.] I wrote to the vendor who advised this early 6" model had paper documenta- tion from 1941. "The #SH41452 is correct. The original packing list is dated 5/23/41." This would be the second lowest serial number amongst the 6" models reported by owners here. It is rare to find any dates when collecting old iron, so this shaper's description will be added to the AMMCO Shaper text file on my site in the June update. And no, I don't have a copy of its packing list. The shaper vendor opined she might sell copies if there were any interest. BUT we already have access to great manuals and parts lists thanks to our generous members Art and Scott. FYI Steve -- in Thunder Bay, Ontario, Canada Machining and Metalworking at Home http://www.janellestudio.com/metal/ ------- Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 13:34:46 -0400 From: "S or J" Subject: Re: Early AMMCO 6 Inch Shaper Roy wrote: >A round of applause certainly goes to the sellers for their photography! >That was my first glimpse of the back of the cabinet. >As for the serial number, my AMMCO 6 inch has only four digits! >(SH 6117) Does that put mine in the stone age? Roy Your shaper may not be in the stone age, but some of us are getting a bit closer ;-) That could place yours ahead of the earliest previous number given to this group which is SH6 128. [The owner stated that the space after the 6 was accurate.] It is rare to find old AMMCO shapers, with included original dated papers, that would help match serial number ranges to manufacturing dates. Steve ------- Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 19:39:43 -0400 From: viajoaquinx~xxaol.com Subject: Re: Re: Early AMMCO 6 Inch Shaper Unfortunately I don't have any paperwork with my shaper and it doesn't bear any other identification. The space on my plate is between the SH and the 6117. I included a pic of it in my original reply, but it must have got stripped because it didn't show up in my copy. Roy ------- NOTE TO FILE: The following message was received from John Olsen, in New Zealand, who has contributed so much to our shaper hobby. He kindly permitted its inclusion in the AMMCO file here. Hopefully it will encourage more discussion and sharing of information until we have enough facts to positively confirm a date theory. Thank you, John, much appreciated. October 19, 2005 Hi Steve, Just been looking at your site and I see a few more serial numbers have come to light. OK, it is all a bit tenuous, but try this for a theory... We have four, five, six and seven digit machines. So lots of possibilities for confusion. Start with the two four digit machines. One has a gap between the first digit and the last three. So let us say that the first digit was the last digit of the year. They are supposed to have started in 31, so could easily have gone 1xxx, 2xxx, 3xxx through the thirties...I mean, who plans for ten years away? The gap might have been inserted inadvertently by someone, but that would make both of the 4 digit machines 1936 production. This does assume no more than 999 shapers per year. Come the forties, so this simple scheme is extended to include two digits, so now we get the five digit numbers, which are both 41xxx. One of these is "the Ebay example with date documentation", which is for 1941. So that would fit the pattern...and all of these are early pattern "six inch" machines, so this seems reasonable. That would make mine 1941 as well, and so no longer the oldest known AMMCO in captivity. It would also be a reasonable date for an American machine to come to NZ, as at that time British supplies would have been hard to get so suppliers might have turned to the US. OK, now things get harder. There seem to be two numbering schemes, the six digit one and the seven digit one. War board marked machines seem to come with either. I wonder if one scheme was for AMMCO badged machines and the other for Rockwell? Did they both sell them at the same time? You have to wonder if the 1111 was the start of the new scheme, end of 41, and the 1222 for 42. May be then they gave that up and went to a straight sequential number scheme. At least, we don't seem to have any data to turn those six digit numbers into years. So the theory boils down to: Four digits:- First digit is last digit of year as in 193x. Five Digits:- First two digits are last two of year as in 19xx. I only expect to see 1940 and 1941 for this scheme. Six digits:- Post 1941 production; don't know how to extract a year. Seven digits:- 1111 may be late 1941; 1222 may be 1942. Don't know if this scheme was used for other years. Still only seems to permit 999 shapers per year. Any more clues, especially obvious exceptions, or tying the schemes to AMMCO or Rockwell/Delta would be interesting. A wild guess might be that the new 1111, 1222 scheme died when war time production exceeded 999 per year, or else when Rockwell or Delta imposed their own scheme. regards John ------- Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2005 13:35:02 -0800 From: J R Slack Subject: Re: Downfeed Mechanism On Tue, 29 Nov 2005, Ken R wrote: >Does anyone have plans for a downfeed mechanism that would fit a 7" >AMMCO. Heck, I'd even like to see a picture, never seen one. >Difficult to rig one up? Ken Not particularly difficult. A recent post (here, maybe?) linked to a site where a chap had used an old battery-powered screwdriver and a variable DC supply; it's triggered by a microswitch that trips at end-of-stroke. I'm finishing up a conversion on my AAMCO, using a stepper; I'm also (because I can) adding a stepper to X. Ultimate goal is to CNC the little dickens. Idea came about because: - I recently had to cut a rack, a replacement part. I used a mechanical stop on the downfeed, and a spacer stop w/ gauge blocks on X. Tedious as h**l, but result worked beautifully. - I have some steppers (ex-Sherline), double shaft with calibrated handwheels, .050. per turn, which I could use to 'rationalize' the 16 pitch downfeed screw to 20 pitch. - Once I'd gotten that far... Stay tuned, and let us know what you work out. Regards, Jack JAX #1 Rule Of Physics: "Just because you can, doesn't mean you should." ------- Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2005 09:01:29 -0000 From: "Art Volz" Subject: Re: Downfeed Mechanism Ken-- See my Msg #4121 (here) of 5 May 2003. You'll have to glue the metalworking.com URL back together again in your address line to see the PIC of the elctro-mechano ratcheting feed mechanism I built in breadboard working-model configuration. It would need to be repackaged for actual shaper use, but the power is from a small reversible on-the-fly Bosch DC motor juiced by 40 VDC at about 2 amps: it has considerable tork--more than enuf for small shaper feed applications. I also have a small shaper/planer that I built about 5 years ago that has all axis powered by computer controlled stepper motors and ramming is via a reversible on-the-fly DC motor directly turning a screw drive. Someday I'll take some fotos of it also. Art (Deja vuing in Houston's Nord Wald.) ------- NOTE TO FILE: TOOLHOLDERS FOR AMMCO SHAPERS. There is nothing special about these small shapers' needs compared to their counterparts in other shaper brands. The only significant difference, if any, is what size will fit in the lantern tool post. There is a discussion whose subject is AMMCO toolholders in Dec 2005 and may be read here in the "Shaper Bits and Toolholders" file. But also read the whole file, as there is a ton of useful info in there. ------- NOTE TO FILE: MORE AMMCO DATE INFORMATION My thanks to Jeff Mendoza for getting more information in Dec 2005 about the eBay sale of documentation from a 7" AMMCO. The packing list clearly showed the date for Serial Number: SH943657 as 9-25-44. This shaper has been added to the survey list near the start of this file. There are a lot of 7" shapers with higher serial numbers (listed after this eBay example) where the machine has the War Production Board label. Consequently it looks like 1944 and 1945 were years of incredibly high production. If most of them ended up as war surplus, the demand for new production would likely have dropped at AMMCO long before before their sale of this product line to Delta in 1948. ------- AMMCO 6" Shaper [Metal_Shapers] Posted by: "David G. Sampar" dsamparx~xxptd.net Date: Tue Jun 13, 2006 10:13 pm (PDT) Went to look at Clausing lathe and came home with an AMMCO 6" shaper. Serial number SH220. Flat belt drive. Separate horizontal motor/ countershaft assembly. Ram guard stamped 017 40. The table height looks like it was adjusted from below, but the mechanism is missing. The feed mechanism is missing. It did come with the original vise. Does anybody have any dirty paper on this machine. I have found documentation for Delta/AMMCO 7" shaper that looks to be very similar. The Delta/AMMCO table height mechanism is definitely different. Are the feed mechanisms similar? Any information would be appreciated. Thanks, David ------- Re: AMMCO 6" Shaper Posted by: "S or J" jstudiox~xxtbaytel.net Date: Wed Jun 14, 2006 7:00 am (PDT) David G. Sampar wrote: > came home with an AMMCO 6" shaper. Serial number SH220. > Flat belt drive. Separate horizontal motor/countershaft assembly. > The table height looks like it was adjusted from below Hi David You have the early belt drive version, whose mechanism for table height adjustment was via a simple threaded rod that passed directly below the machine through a hole in the bench top. The threaded rod has a crank handle fixed onto the lower end. Scott has kindly posted several versions of the manual for the later version of the AMMCO that was relabelled a 7" and then sold under Delta Rockwell and Delta Milwaukee names. I have your version but it looks like all parts are the same in the Delta 7" manuals outside of the table elevation rod and motor-mount/belt-type changes. Suggest you read the AMMCO files on my site and check out the Shaper FAQ link there. Lots of good stuff in the archives here as well. Art and group members are an incredible resource of shaper knowledge. Steve -- in Thunder Bay, Ontario, Canada Machining and Metalworking at Home http://www.janellestudio.com/metal/ [Note that we have moved to a permanent web site under our control, so please adjust your browser's Favorites/Bookmarks.] Hi Art: please update the link on the Metal_Shapers' Links page. ------- Re: AMMCO 6" Shaper Posted by: "Geoff Kingma" gkingmax~xxinterlog.com Date: Wed Jun 14, 2006 4:03 pm (PDT) I have the same model and replaced the elevating screw as I needed a longer one due to the way I mounted the shaper on a stand. It has a 5/8"-11 thread. I picked up some unplated "All-thread" from KBC. Let me know off-line if you need any close-up photos of specific items. Regards, Geoff P.S. I have made up some new logos for the door - let me know if you need one and I'll send it by mail. ------- Re: AMMCO 6" Shaper Posted by: "David G. Sampar" dsamparx~xxptd.net Date: Wed Jun 14, 2006 9:25 pm (PDT) Steve and Geoff: Thanks for the replies. I can see why the elevating screw went missing if you had to keep removing it for every move. This shaper was just sitting on a storage room shelf and the elevating screw would have been in the way when it was put into storage. Steve, I found your site. Lots of information. With regard to the serial number there seemed to be quite a discussion. There was no mention of 3 digit one like mine (SH220). When did AMMCO start making these machines? Geoff, I also found Kay Fisher's write up of the rebuild of your 6 Inch AMMCO shaper. Very nice! I will definitely be needing a logo for the door and will contact you back channel with my address. The elevating screw seems to be a simple fix. The real problem will be finding the parts for the feed mechanism. If anyone has these parts in a rat hole somewhere and is willing to part with them, please let me know. Otherwise, I guess I will be waiting for something to show up on eBay... Thanks, David ------- Re: AMMCO 6" Shaper Posted by: "S or J" jstudiox~xxtbaytel.net Date: Thu Jun 15, 2006 1:00 pm (PDT) "David G. Sampar" wrote: > The elevating screw seems to be a simple fix. The real > problem will be finding the parts for the feed mechanism. Hi David: The following is extracted from a conversation Art was having back in 2002 with respect to possibly adapting a shaper to CNC. Included was a clever idea for use of a wrench's ratchet mechanism to replace the original shaper ratchet mechanism. He was writing about an Atlas but these little shapers are similar in their relative simplicity. [NOTE TO FILE: conversation is in the Shaper Mods File here.] > Date: Wed, 07 Aug 2002 > From: "volzmechatronic" > Subject: Replacements for feed mechanism on an Atlas 7 w/CNC > Larry--I've done the stepper motor method and it works. I have > also made a working mechanism using a reversible ratcheting > box wrench--the kind with the sheet metal sides riveted > together--it may not be fine enough of a feed, however, for > your liking, but it's a cheap and simple way to start. Since 2002, I have noticed a large increase in the variety of ratcheting box wrenches available in hardware/auto stores, and it should not be too difficult to jury rig one and experiment. Start your experiment with the shaper turned over by hand, unplugged -- not under power -- until you are sure it will work safely. When reading my site's shaper files, and the archives here, be aware that many ideas/solutions for the Ammco shaper might have been discussed for other brands. And the subject might have been shaper repair, or shaper mods, or ... Skim them all when you get time -- never know where a good idea was hidden -- perhaps under a totally unlikely subject heading. As for date of a 3 digit number, not known here (yet). Let us know when you find out :-) regards Steve -- in Thunder Bay, Ontario, Canada Machining and Metalworking at Home http://www.janellestudio.com/metal/ ------- Ammco trick I never knew Posted by: "Charles Lessig" chlessigx~xxaol.com Date: Tue Jun 27, 2006 6:24 pm (PDT) For years I wondered why they put such a small knurled knob on the Ammco shaper to check the setup before turning on the power. It was hard moving the ram with the belt set for low gear. Today I tried it with the belt off and it moved very easily. Is this so obvious that nobody ever thought it worth mentioning? The South Bend has a bigger hand wheel and a belt tension lever that I always admired but now I am satisfied with my Ammco. It doesn't have a tension lever but a wingnut works fine if you push on the motor to let the wingnut turn freely. Regards, Charlie ------- Re: Ammco trick I never knew Posted by: "speedphoto300" speedphoto300x~xxyahoo.com Date: Wed Jun 28, 2006 7:17 am (PDT) The Atlas doesn't have a knob or handwheel, I just open the belt guard and spin the countershaft pulley. Joe ------- Re: ammco shaper [Metal_Shapers] Posted by: "Art Volz" volzmechatronicx~xxyahoo.com Date: Tue Sep 12, 2006 3:36 pm (PDT) "bigbore456" wrote: > new to this site: i was just given a ammco shaper but the > owner who said it was his grandfathers couldn't locate the advancing > parts,pulleys, motor mount. > my question would be 1. i need to see a picture of the advancing > system to see what i'm missing and make the parts or buy them from > someone. thanks ken kuban Ken-- (See below:) Your chances of finding and buying the missing parts is next to nil unless you buy an additional shaper and cannibalize it. To see what you're missing, and to print out a copy of the operators manual, parts list, and parts drawing, go to: http://www.lathe.com/catalogs Download and print "Delta/Milwaukee 7" Shaper Instructions Gray Scale". It is 17Mb big so, if you don't have a high speed connection, the download will take some time. Alternatively, you can buy a copy of the AMMCO manual from Dan Hill at http://www.hillsguns.com for around $20. Your choice, your time, and your money. > 2. need to know how large the pulleys. > 3 can the shaper be driven directly from the motor to the pulley > thats on the hand crank? i'm thinking of just mounting a 1/3 hp motor > directly behind the shaper then go to the hand crank shaft for the > drive system. You NEED a speed reduction system similar to what the shaper was shipped with. (See PIX in manual that you downloaded.) The multi-diameter pulleys, available from http://www.wttool.com, are made by Chicago Die Casting and come in standard sizes--one that you might like is 2-3-4-5. Note these are outside diameters; pitch diameters should be used to compute speeds. (The Wholesale Tool printed catalog lists pitch diameters for all of their pulleys.) To minimize pulleys and jackshaft, a speed reduced gearmotor can be used; to see PIX of my backpack gearmotor on my Lewis go to "Photos" at http://www.groups.yahoo.com/group/Lewis_Machine_Tool Remember that the AMMCO/Delta-Milwaukee/Rockford shaper is a LOW speed HSS tooled shaper. The rule of thumb for cutting mild steel with HSS tool bits is a max cutting surface speed (ram speed) of 50 surface feet per minute, or less. 50 SFPM is more than enuf speed for cutting any hobbyist material with HSS. Your AMMCO is NOT designed to effectively use carbide tooling; efficient cutting speeds for use of carbide tooling start at 300 SFPM which would soon reduce your AMMCO to being a source of cannibalization parts. Start at the 50 SFPM ramming speed and work back --for each inch length of cut from 1-inch to 7-inch--in your speed calculations, to the motor to determine pulley sizes and motor speed required. Remember, in your calculations, that the ram is ramming 2/3rds of each revolution of the bull gear, and retracting 1/3rd of the time. 1/3rd HP is more than enuf for powering your antique AMMCO--I use a Dayton 1/4 HP gearmotor on my larger Lewis-10. Lubrication: BEFORE, DURING (ESPECIALLY DURING), AND AFTER OPERATION lube/oil everything that moves. The ram slideway will require the operator to continually keep oiling to preclude metal to metal contact. Don't forget the slider in the crank. The AMMCO does NOT have an automatic lubrications system other than the operator and his oil can in hand. As you can see, as a new shaper owner, you have to do most of the work and figure out things yourself, but, that is as it should be...for an amateur (one who LOVES what he's doing) hobbyist...as we all are. While you're over at the Lewis Machine Tool Group site, look in "Files" for "Shaper Tool Holders". Download and print a copy of my Armstrong clone adjustable shaper tool holder dimensioned plans. Make one of these. Vintage Armstrong #39's, like this one that fits your AMMCO, sell on eBay for about $120 these days; they're not being made anymore unless you make one for yourself. That's the way things is; that's the way things are. Art (Houston) ------- Clapper play Posted by: "Alan Rothenbush" alanx~xxsfu.ca Date: Fri Sep 29, 2006 12:25 pm (PDT) Some time ago I was advised by the assembled wisdom here that problems I was complaining about with my 6" AMMCO (it's OK cutting aluminum, lousy cutting steel) were likely due to "looseness" somewhere, with the clapper pivot being a place to look. Well, I looked, and yes, I suppose there _is_ more play in the wrong directions than should be. But I have no idea how much play is too much .. the eternal problem of isolation; no other machines to compare it to and no one else around with any experience to say "yup, it's loose". Even if I use the few wits I have to deduce that it's loose, I find adjustment to be tricky, given that adjustment seems to require the services of a punch and a hammer! Now, I can measure the play and measure the taper of the pivot pin and then calculate how much further the pin needs to go in to remove a certain amount of play. But translating that into just how hard to hit it with what size hammer is beyond me. Is this actually how these things are adjusted? And will it not just wiggle loose again? I'm thinking about adding a bracket with a threaded hole such that I can tighten down a setscrew that bears upon the pin until the play feels about right, and then lock the setscrew with a nut. But I've never seen any such adjustment in any pictures, and so am left to wonder ... Any thoughts ? Alan Rothenbush Burnaby, B.C., Canada ------- The Kalamazoo Kure--Re: Clapper play Posted by: "Art Volz" volzmechatronicx~xxyahoo.com Date: Fri Sep 29, 2006 1:58 pm (PDT) Alan--Your AMMCO with the klap--with the klapper shakes--is from Chicago and it needs to take the Kalamazoo Kure. The kure is simple: make a new tapered pin, with a threaded extension on the narrow end, and tighten it fixed just right with a pair of jam nuts and a lock washer. A couple of jamming nuts lock-washered together, and a honkey-tonked threaded & extended tapered pin...and you'll soon be humming 'n tapping dem Kalmazoo-Klapper-Done-Be-Shaking-Blues. Go to "Files" here and download the Atlas Shaper Manual...in "Manuals". The Kalamazoo Kure is illustrated on PDF page 12. Enjoy the Kure! Art (Houston) ------- Re: The Kalamazoo Kure--Re: Clapper play Posted by: "Alan Rothenbush" alanx~xxsfu.ca Date: Fri Sep 29, 2006 2:47 pm (PDT) Thanks for the reply. This was in fact the first thing I thought about trying, but then _honestly_ looked at my skill level and decided that any taper pin I could fabricate myself would likely makes things WORSE, not better! (I even looked at tapping the skinny end .. how's that for desperate.) Plus, these things are hardened, are they not? Alan Burnaby, B.C., Canada ------- The Kalamazoo Kure--Re: Clapper play Posted by: "Art Volz" volzmechatronicx~xxyahoo.com Date: Fri Sep 29, 2006 3:32 pm (PDT) Alan--Some taper pins are hardened, others are not. Have you tested to see if your taper pin is hardened...with a file or an automatic center punch? I suspect that the taper pins used in clappers are not hardened unless the clapper is also hardened. The clapper's tapered pin is the cheaper replaceable item and should be the one that is designed to wear, not the clapper itself. Some of your possible solutions: 1. Making a threaded tapered pin yourself. This is an inexpensive solution with SAE 1018 steel. Keep doing it until you get it right. Your lathe doesn't need a taper attachment per se. Some folks offset the tail stock's center using an adjustable boring head. There may be an article on how-to-do this at the Houston Home Metal Shop Club site--I forget. 2. Ask to see if some kind and generous member of this group can make you the threaded taper pin. Then you'll owe him...a favor, or two. 3. Atlas still has some parts--very few--for their olde shaper. Ask Jolene Olds at the Clausing Service Center in Goshen Indiana. If it's a bigger taper, you would have to ream your hole, but the reamers are available. 4. Many companies that make taper pins for a living, also make one-offs. One such company is http://www.stdsteel.com/taper.htm Ask for a quote. 5. Make a vertical shim plate of just the rite thickness--hold in place with the taper pin. 6. Do nothing. Whatever you do, be sure, though, that to reduce wear on the taper pin, the clapper, and clapper box, that you keep them well lubricated. Art ------- The Kalamazoo Kure--Re: Clapper play Posted by: "Art Volz" volzmechatronicx~xxyahoo.com Date: Fri Sep 29, 2006 3:46 pm (PDT) Alan--For adapting a boring head to use as an off-set lathe tail stock center for cutting tapers see: http://www.homemetalshopclub.org/news/mar97/mar97.html#Workholding Art ------- Re: Clapper play Posted by: "speedphoto300" speedphoto300x~xxyahoo.com Date: Fri Sep 29, 2006 5:06 pm (PDT) > Is this actually how these things are adjusted? And will it not > just wiggle loose again ? I've read most of this thread, and will build in replies to a couple of the points made. The best way to deal with a loose clapper is to first drive out the taper pin, and clean the clapper and clapper box while it's apart. Get a taper pin reamer of the correct size (sometimes you can borrow one, if you buy one they're about $35). Put the clapper in place in the box and ream them together. Remove the clapper and take just a touch of a cut with the reamer. Oh, you should have a new pin handy, look around the 'net and there are lots of places, like McMaster-Carr, that have them. If the old pin is worn just change it. The new pin should just be tapped in; the Atlas had a threaded end with a nut that held it in, it was 5/16-18. These pins come in a variety of lengths; pick the one that fits. If the cut in the clapper is right it will clap easily with no play; if it's too loose repeat the process. You are only taking off a tiny amount so you can do this many times. I've never seen a clapper or clapper box that was hardened, most are just cast iron anyway. Keep it oiled and clean and it should last a long time. The Atlas manual suggests tightening the nut, maybe to push parts sales. If you think about it that's probably not going to fix the problem, and might break something. With my approach you fix the real issue (that the hole is worn, or the pin). Joe ------- NOTE TO FILE: A couple of the replies above refer to a tapered pin from the Atlas shaper. The original question was about an AMMCO shaper. The replies are still valid as the problem is resolved by a good fit of the tapered hole to a tapered pin, whatever the source of the pin or the shaper (or other machine) brand. ------- Re: Sloppy fit? [Metal_Shapers] Posted by: "Geoff Kingma" gkingmax~xxinterlog.com Date: Tue Jan 23, 2007 4:03 pm ((PST)) "parkcityflyer" wrote: > When I tore down the main body of my Ammco flat belt model(s/n SH 208), I found no slop in any of the shaft/bushing fits until I got to the bull gear shank(S-2011) and the rocker arm shoe screw(S-2020). The 0.500" o.d. screw rides in the 0.530" i.d. shank bore. Neither piece appears to be worn, and I saw no evidence of a bushing. Is this normal? Help? Tom < My 6" machine is a couple of years younger than yours (circa 1940/41) but this part didn't change AFAIK. On mine the two parts are a sliding fit now. When I rebuilt it, I made a new shoe from 660 bronze as lack of lubrication had created some slop both in the shaft and in the slide fit in the rocker arm. A possible solution would be to sleeve the shoe with a bronze bushing after checking that the shaft is not eccentric and worn undersize. Also remember to redrill the lube holes from the top and from the sides. Regards, Geoff ------- AMMCO 7" : DETERMINING APPROX SPEED OF CURRENT SETUP [Metal_Shapers] Posted by: "drwu1974" drwu1974x~xxyahoo.com Date: Fri Apr 20, 2007 11:27 pm ((PDT)) Hello everyone im new to this group.... I just purchased an ammco 7" shaper (it came with the vise, optional "rolling" cabinet, etc). Everything seems to be in good working order. I have done some shaper reseacrh including looking through the 1950 manual) but one thing has me stumped...how do I figure out the actual working speed of my machine so as to adjust the pulley system as needed. I know the motor RPM and my machine includes the following setup: motor belted to pulley which is attached via shaft to a 1,2,3,4 stepped pulley (seperate from the machine) which is belted to a second 1,2,3,4 stepped pulley on the machine drive. I know the pulley speeds are figured like other machines (eg drill press) but how does the "ram motion" figure into the equation? I'm sure that this question was probably answered before but my search of the message board came up empty and I'm too tired to keep looking. Any info would be greatly appreciated. I plan to tear down and clean up the machine... any specific problems I should keep my eye out for...from reading some of the other sites that some of this group members posted on it looks like there might be a few gremlins found when you begin to disassemble the Ammco. Thank you. ------- Re: AMMCO 7" : DETERMINING APPROX SPEED OF CURRENT SETUP Posted by: "James Stack" jimsta1942x~xxadelphia.net Date: Sat Apr 21, 2007 3:46 am ((PDT)) I find one of those inexpensive non-contact Chinese digital tachometers works great. Just squeeze handle and read. Got mine on ebay for about $30 not too long ago. Also works on lathes and mills among other things. js ------ AMMCO 7" : DETERMINING APPROX SPEED OF CURRENT SETUP Posted by: "Clive Foster" clive_fosterx~xxtalk21.com Date: Sat Apr 21, 2007 12:40 pm ((PDT)) I guess that what you are really trying to work out is the actual tool tip cutting speed generated by the ram motion. This will vary depending on the stroke of the ram. Assuming the Ammco is a pretty typical shaper the pulleys and motor speed determine the rate at which the bull-wheel turns and one turn of the bull wheel generates a complete two stroke ram cycle i.e. out and back. So, assuming the bull-wheel is turning at 10 rpm then with the ram stroke set to 1 inch the nominal cutting speed will be approximately 20 inches per minute but if the stroke is set to 5 inches it will be 100 inches per minute. In practice this is a very imprecise estimate because the ram speed varies during the stroke (physics buffs will recognise Simple Harmonic Motion rearing its ugly head) and the quick return action means that the cutting stroke is slower than the return one. However a shaper is a pretty forgiving tool (unless you get in the way of the ram) and great accuracy in cutting speed setting is rarely needed. Main thing is to ensure that it's not silly fast and, with difficult or work hardening materials like stainless steel, that you are making an appropriate cut. Clive ------- Re: AMMCO 7" : DETERMINING APPROX SPEED OF CURRENT SETUP Posted by: "pkdickman" pkdickmanx~xxaol.com Date: Sun Apr 22, 2007 12:15 am ((PDT)) I am in the process of assembling my Ammco that came in several boxes, so take all this with a grain of salt. According to the manual, these use a 1725 rpm motor with a 2" and a 6" pulley reducing it's speed by a factor of three. Assuming this is still true and your step pulleys are factory equipment, then we can use the factory stroke speeds. They were 40, 70, 115, 180. Formula for SFM would be: Strokes per minute times stroke length times 2 (stroke travels forward and backwards) divided by 12 (to get feet). So at 40 strokes, 4" stroke length we get... 40*4*2/12= 26.666 sfm At 180 strokes we get... 180*4*2/12= 120 sfm Paul K. Dickman ------- Re: AMMCO 7" : DETERMINING APPROX SPEED OF CURRENT SETUP Posted by: "Matthew Tinker" mattinkerx~xxyahoo.com Date: Sun Apr 22, 2007 12:47 am ((PDT)) Paul, how about a file in the files section with a table of examples and the formula? Regards, Matthew ------- Re: AMMCO 7" : DETERMINING APPROX SPEED OF CURRENT SETUP Posted by: "drwu1974" drwu1974x~xxyahoo.com Date: Sun Apr 22, 2007 7:52 am ((PDT)) I understand the formulas but needed the factory pulley stroke speeds. (40/70/115/180). I'm pretty sure my machine is all "factory". The motor is rated at 1725 RPM, attached to the 2" and 6" pulleys and then to the two sets of 4-step pulleys. Thank you again for the many and quick replies... On another note I have been cleaning up and adjusting the various mechanics of the machine and everthing seems to be in good working order. So far the only problem was adjusting the stroke length internally (loosening the varius bolts/screws and then sliding the brass block to adjust the stroke length). The problem is that it was able to be adjusted but was very reluctant to do so...it needed a little coaxing with a wooden dowel and some gentle mallet tapping. Is this normal? It does not seem to bind during a "revolution" with the ram stroke. I would like to take the machine apart, check for any wear/slop/broken parts, etc. even though it seems to run well. I would like to know if this is too much hassle and should I leave well enough alone or -- if I do disassemble the machine -- are there any pitfuls, surprises, or areas that I should give my attention to. Any input would be greatly appreciated. Kirk ------- Re: AMMCO 7" : DETERMINING APPROX SPEED OF CURRENT SETUP Posted by: "J R Slack" anvilx~xxnwlink.com Date: Sun Apr 22, 2007 11:28 am ((PDT)) >...it needed a little coaxing ...Is this normal? Yes. I find mine moves a little easier if (after loosening the big locknut, of course) I 'rock' the stroke back and forth a bit with the handwheel while pushing the shoe up or down by hand. Be sure to line up the arrows before making the final adjustment. >... I would like to take the machine apart, check for >any wear/slop/broken parts, etc. even though it seems to run well. Then, why? Lube it well, and use it! >I would like to know if this is to much hassle and should I leave >well enough alone or if I do disassemble the machine are ther any >pitfuls, suprises , or areas that I should give my attention to. Any > input would be greatly appreciate. AAMCO's were built to a price, so there are several plain steel shafts running directly in cast iron; plenty good enough if kept oiled, but subject to wallowing out the casting if run dry. One area easy to overlook are the tiny holes to oil the crossfeed shaft at either end of the crossfeed rail. The ratchet end especially, sees a sideways force, and if allowed to wear too sloppy can make the feed inconsistent and difficult to adjust. Regards, Jack J R Slack WPB AAMCO 7" #SH954271 ------- Re: AMMCO 7" : DETERMINING APPROX SPEED OF CURRENT SETUP Posted by: "speedphoto300" speedphoto300x~xxyahoo.com Date: Sun Apr 22, 2007 11:53 am ((PDT)) > Formula for SFM would be: > Strokes per minute times stroke length times 2 (stroke travels > forward and backwards) divided by 12 (to get feet) This would be accurate for a mechanism that has equal speeds on the cut and retract strokes, but a crank shaper is a little different. SPM / 7.1 X stroke (inches) accounts for the speed difference. On the other hand, the difference is small, and I have never bothered calculating cutting speeds since I was in school anyway. Just run it and get used to what it does. Joe ------- Re: AMMCO 7" : DETERMINING APPROX SPEED OF CURRENT SETUP Posted by: "Geoff Kingma" gkingmax~xxinterlog.com Date: Mon Apr 23, 2007 4:01 pm ((PDT)) Hi there. Been away at the NAMES show - hence the delay in replying. I find when adjusting the stroke on my Ammco, I first loosen the ram locking lever that is located on the top of the ram (ie the stroke positioner). This makes it very easy to slide the stroke adjuster up or down. If it still is sticky, there may be a "burr" on the dovetail portion of the sdjuster that is in the middle of the bull gear. Geoff ------- Re: Does anybody have pictures of a 6" Ammco Shaper? [Metal_Shapers] Posted by: "stevetbon1" jstudiox~xxtbaytel.net Date: Thu Jun 28, 2007 12:53 pm ((PDT)) Peter in Davis CA wrote: > I just got this wonderful piece of equipment. Damn it is nice. Of course I wished a had a manual, and a parts manual. I need to check something on the automatic feed mechanism. I hope someone has a machine like that , and of course would be happy to share some pictures. I also have the original motor and the flat pulley's. It presently runs with a V belt setup, but would rather bring it to original specs....Thanks in advance.... < Hi Peter, Scott has kindly provided copies of the AMMCO (aka Delta-Milwaukee and Rockford-Delta) shaper manuals. See the Links for this group and find the manuals at: http://www.lathe.com/catalogs You might also want to read the AMMCO shaper files on my site that consolidate discussions of problems and fixes and tips. The automatic feed mechanism can be a bit ornery to get working well. If the ratchet mechanism is not too worn, you will likely succeed with a bit of experimentation while cycling the machine manually [while unplugged]. I recollect that Art Volz once toyed with the idea of modifying the feed mechanism of some shaper (these little ones from several brands can all have feed glitches if not perfectly adjusted). Essentially the feed mechanism would incorporate one of those new ratcheting wrenches that require only a small angle to actuate. With all these older machines, we have to balance the desire to keep everything original with the practicality of getting the machine operational now. You might take the example of some antique auto enthusiasts, who will sometimes replace an original part that works badly or fails frequently with a new different one (say an oil pump) yet retain the original parts to go with the car if/when they sell same. Steve -- in Thunder Bay, Ontario, Canada Machining and Metalworking at Home http://www.janellestudio.com/metal/ ------- Re: Does anybody have pictures of a 6" Ammco Shaper? Posted by: "speedphoto300" speedphoto300x~xxyahoo.com Date: Thu Jun 28, 2007 3:12 pm ((PDT)) There are photos of an early Ammco on the metal shapers pix site, the old photo overflow site for this one. The one I'm thinking of has flat belts and the flexible cable feed mechanism. Joe ------- eBay seller ... selling new AMMCO Bull Gear [Metal_Shapers] Posted by: "Don Marsh" radio1x~xxtech-center.com Date: Sun Oct 21, 2007 7:41 am ((PDT)) My eBay serach engine alerted me about this sale of newly made AMMCO bull gears. His starting bid is $130.00!! shaper new bull gear 7" Ammco/ Rockwell-Delta Item number: 110182782333 ------- e: eBay seller ... selling new AMMCO Bull Gear Posted by: "Geoff Kingma" gkingmax~xxinterlog.com Date: Sun Oct 21, 2007 3:55 pm ((PDT)) My 1941 Price list states that this spare part costs $9.00. So this is pretty reasonable when inflation is taken into account. On the other hand automation should reduce it by a factor of ten - oh well, I'm rambling on! Geoff ------- Re: eBay seller ... selling new AMMCO Bull Gear Posted by: "mendoje1" mendoje1x~xxyahoo.com Date: Sun Oct 21, 2007 7:06 pm ((PDT)) Using one of many inflation calculators on the web, $9 in 1941 is now worth $127.65, so $130 is completely in line. Jeff ------- Re: eBay seller ... selling new AMMCO Bull Gear Posted by: "Don Marsh" radio1x~xxtech-center.com Date: Sun Oct 21, 2007 8:15 pm ((PDT)) Does anyone have a comment about his [eBay posting] last sentence where he states, "I came to the conclusion that these gears don't need oil, in fact, oil attracts chips, and it's the chips that break the teeth!" I have frequently squirted oil onto the bull gear teeth with the hope that the oil will reduce wear of the gear. The statement above makes some sense to me. But, I did not know there were shapers a few months before buying my AMMCO. Whats say you out there that have more experience and knowledge about these nice little machines? ------- Re: eBay seller ... selling new AMMCO Bull Gear Posted by: "Jon Brooks" jpbrooksapx~xxsbcglobal.net Date: Mon Oct 22, 2007 12:39 am ((PDT)) Oil is ok, it's grease that tends to attract swarf. That's how I see it. ------- Re: eBay seller ... selling new AMMCO Bull Gear Posted by: "mendoje1" mendoje1x~xxyahoo.com Date: Mon Oct 22, 2007 7:52 pm ((PDT)) Searching around on the web, except for specially modified "bakelites" or phenolics which have dry lubricant mixed into the laminate, I could not find where standard reddish brown bakelite type laminates have any self lubricating properties. In the Delta-Milwaukee 27-100 7" Precision Shaper Instruction Manual PM-1737, on page 6 it notes "All moving parts and bearings are supplied with oil holes and oilers.", and Figure 12 on page 7 calls out these oiling points. Figure 12 does not call out the lubricating the bull gear, but it doesn't call out oiling the knee and saddle ways either. I agree that oil rather than grease is preferred, it will wash away the chips. I still like my idea of replacing the bull and pinion with straight cut timing gears with a toothed belt. No lubrication required, and if you push it too hard the belt breaks or just strips. Jeff ------- Re: eBay seller ... selling new AMMCO Bull Gear Posted by: "J R Williams" jrwillmsx~xxhal-pc.org Date: Mon Oct 22, 2007 8:40 pm ((PDT)) Nothing wrong with a straight gear set. My Logan uses a standard roller chain drive. JRW ------- Some lengthy blather about cutting keyways. [Metal_Shapers] Posted by: "pkdickman" pkdickmanx~xxaol.com pkdickman Date: Mon Oct 22, 2007 11:09 pm ((PDT)) Well, I got the AMMCO I obtained in several boxes fully assembled. Built the stand, patched the broken belt guard and set about makin' chips. After doin' the usual stuff (make a block sq on six sides, cut some bevels, cut some slots, tweak finish cutter), my fancy turned to cutting keyways in a bore. I made a holder for a boring bar and went at it. After a few abortive attempts (worked out the cutting upward by myself) I found a couple of problems. #1 the AMMCO has no provision for locking the clapper box. #2 if the work is held in the vise, I can only get about 2 inches of stroke before the clapper box is smacking the jaws. I read over the collected wisdom of the group and resigned myself to finding a way to lock the clapper without monkeying up the shaper, and to think up ways to hold the work that won't interfere with the tool. While in bed thinking about these problems, I was hit by a biblical revelation. "If thine eye offend thee, pluck it out" Why not just remove the offending clapper box. On the AMMCOs it is mounted to the slide with a 1/2-20 screw that acts as the pivot. I removed it, found a piece of 1/2 in rod with the end threaded to 1/2-20, turned it into a boring bar, threaded it into the slide and clamped it with a jamb nut and, to spread the load, I backed it up with a heavy machined grinder flange I had laying around. It works like a champ. What is even better, without the slop of the clapper to contend with, I don't have to cut up or down, I can cut sideways. If I cut horizontal, I don't have to rely on my aging eyeballs to cut to a line in the layout. With the toolslide mounted vertically and the cutter pointing horizontally, I mount the work and set the height of the bottom of my tool to the center of the bore minus 1/2 the keys width. I put the tool onto the bore and crank the table over until the cutter just kissed the bore. Then I clamp a stop to the cross slide to limit it's further travel to 1/2 the key's thickness plus a few thou clearance. With machine running I slowly hand crank the table to the stop. I let it take a few strokes between each advance until the tool stops taking chips. Then I back the table up until the cutter is clear of the slot and stop the machine. Use the toolslide to raise the cutter an appropriate fraction of it's width and repeat until you have raised it a total distance of the width of the desired keyway minus the width of the cutter. That way the most demanding dimension of the keyway (the width) is cut with the comparative accuracy of the graduated tool slide, instead the ungraduated cross slide) It works great, I have been cutting keyways all afternoon. They come out out nice and accurate, with only the occasional extra kiss with the tool for fitting. I don't know how the clapper box is mounted on everyone elses shaper, but I suggest you try keyways without the clapper box. Be aware however, that the threads of the mounting screw do not normally see the full load of the tool. It is usually redirected by the bulk of the clapper box. So take it easy when cutting and do not over-torque the nut when you are mounting the boring bar. Paul K. Dickman ------- AMMCO/Delta shaper vise question [Metal_Shapers] Posted by: "Andrew Fitzgibbon" wade8ax~xxmeer.net Date: Wed Mar 19, 2008 2:36 pm ((PDT)) Hi all, I just bought a nice little Delta/Milwaukee (AMMCO) shaper and am very happy with it. One question that I'm hoping others that own these machines can answer. The base of my vise has only one key slot, which when used with a key in the table slot aligns the vise jaw surfaces parallel to the ram. This seems wrong to me, since standard shaper practice is to keep the vise jaws perpendicular to the ram whenever possible. The manual notes that when the key slot is used that "the vise can be rotated 90 degrees at a time with exact position". This isn't possible on my shaper. The key works in one position only, to align the jaws parallel to the ram. Did they forget to mill a slot in the vise base or in the table when they built my shaper? Thanks, Andy Fitzgibbon ------- Re: AMMCO/Delta shaper vise question Posted by: "viajoaquinx~xxaol.com" Date: Wed Mar 19, 2008 4:35 pm ((PDT)) Andy: They went to only one slot at some point. I had a 1930s vintage six inch Ammco with a flat belt, that had three slots on the bottom of the vise so it would sit either right or left as well as perpendicular to the ram. My WWII vintage 7 inch only has one slot that has the end of the vise screw on the left. The two vises were nearly identical except the older one had four screws holding in the jaws in addition to the extra slots! BakoRoy ------- Re: AMMCO/Delta shaper vise question Posted by: "Andrew Fitzgibbon" wade8ax~xxmeer.net Date: Thu Mar 20, 2008 1:29 am ((PDT)) Thanks. My vise sits the same as yours does (on your later shaper) with the key in-end of screw on the left. I wonder why they decided to orient it that way. Best, Andy ------- Ammco 7" Shaper Questions [Metal_Shapers] Posted by: "Frank Trozzo" featherheadx~xxcitcom.net Date: Mon May 26, 2008 9:45 pm ((PDT)) Hey Ya'll, I'm one of those tool guys that could'nt resist. I bought a 7" AMMCO on an oak cabinet. Made in 1942. Almost mint condition. I've spent a few days looking and test cutting and can't find a thing wrong with it. What I am wondering is .... what CAN it do? I have a bridgeport mill and a SB 10L lathe. What in the world can a shaper add to my productivity as a home shop hobbiest? The vise is quite small and sits on a mounting stud that sets it back at least 3" from the inboard throw of the ram, leaving only about 2" of workable travel. The vise has degree marks but no swivel, only the three 90 degree keyways that allow it to attach at 90 degrees either way. Does anyone know of a swivel setup for the vise? I'm waiting on Rudy's instructional DVD. Hope it will enlighten me more. I've had good luck with tool grinding and am getting good cuts, experimenting with speeds and feeds. Can't wait til I learn how to REALLY grind a proper sahper bit. The biggest thing at this point is to take advantage of the full throw and be able to swivel the vise. Any help out there? ------- Re: Ammco 7" Shaper Questions Posted by: "viajoaquinx~xxaol.com" Date: Mon May 26, 2008 10:30 pm ((PDT)) The AMMCO vise swivels on the mounting stud, only use the key for setting it? at 90 degrees. BakoRoy ------- Re: Ammco 7" Shaper Questions Posted by: "bpendle1" bobpenx~xxsupanet.com Date: Tue May 27, 2008 2:27 am ((PDT)) Hello, Frank. There's plenty of literature on shapers but apart from this group they're a pretty neglected tool these days. For what it's worth, though, I've just added a selection of old Model Engineer mag articles to my collection. The publishers reprinted a series of 'collections' to celebrate the magazine's centenary year. This is No 9, 'Shaping and Planing Machines'. I wouldn't say it's essential reading but if a copy comes your way you'll be happy to add it to your library. Bob ------- Re: Ammco 7" Shaper Questions Posted by: "Andrew Fitzgibbon" wade8ax~xxmeer.net Date: Tue May 27, 2008 5:46 am ((PDT)) The mounting stud for the vise should be threaded, and have a nut inside the table. Set it to the angle you want and tighten the nut. Andy ------- Re: Ammco 7" Shaper Questions Posted by: "Frank Trozzo" featherheadx~xxcitcom.net Date: Tue May 27, 2008 9:52 am ((PDT)) Thanks Man. Took a while for that to dawn on me. ------- Re: Ammco 7" Shaper Questions Posted by: "speedphoto300" speedphoto300x~xxyahoo.com Date: Tue May 27, 2008 12:22 pm ((PDT)) Just checking, because sometimes we assume that new owners already know the ins and outs. You are aware that you can adjust both the stroke length and the position of the ram with respect to the stroke, right? The Ammco, like every other shaper I've ever seen, can take a cut over the whole top of its table, if you are so inclined, so not being able to use the whole of the vise capacity indicates there is an adjustment needed. Joe ------- Re: Ammco 7" Shaper Questions Posted by: "mikejanfx~xxjuno.com" Date: Tue May 27, 2008 1:09 pm ((PDT)) Frank: A shaper is great for cutting internal keyways, internal splines, internal gears, and dovetails ... all very cheaply and accurately. Though you can do some of these operations on both lathe and mill, it's usually not as easy, and usually more expensive. Mike in Iowa ------- Re: Ammco 7" Shaper Questions Posted by: "William N White" wwyte55x~xxhotmail.com Date: Tue May 27, 2008 3:41 pm ((PDT)) Now you have stuck your foot in it. Be careful shapers are addictive and you will never get them out of your blood. Owned an AMMCO shaper. The position adjustment is on top; see the lever and the slot. Loosen the lock lever and move the ram wherever you want it. Take off the side cover; there is an adjustment for stroke length. By learning to grind shaper tools you can hog metal, or make the nicest finish cut you ever saw. Good luck, have fun, but remember the addiction thing. Still miss my AMMCO. Billw in Central Wa. ------- Adjusting the stroke [Metal_Shapers] Posted by: "gsfreeland" gsfreelandx~xxrocketmail.com Date: Sat Jun 28, 2008 10:34 pm ((PDT)) I just purchased my first 7" Ammco today and I would like to adjust the stroke. I have removed the side cover, aligned the arrows, loosened the clamp nut, and attempted to move the shoe. I can't seem to get it to move and it is stuck on 3.5 inches. I didn't want to get aggressive unless it was necessary. Any suggestions? Thanks in advance, Gary ------- Re: Adjusting the stroke Posted by: "Malcolm Watts" nedkalix~xxwestnet.com.au Date: Sun Jun 29, 2008 1:36 am ((PDT)) Align both the slot of the yoke and bullwheel crank plate, both should be verticle to allow easy movement of the slide block - up and down. That's how I adjust mine anyway. Hope that helps. Regards Mal ------- Re: Adjusting the stroke Posted by: "wade8ax~xxmeer.net" wade8ax~xxmeer.net Date: Sun Jun 29, 2008 7:14 am ((PDT)) Mine is sticky sometimes and requires some gentle prying to unstick it. Probably needs cleaning. Are you lining up the arrows on the operator side of the machine (near the feed eccentric on the main shaft)? Andy ------- Re: Adjusting the stroke Posted by: "Gary" gsfreelandx~xxrocketmail.com Date: Sun Jun 29, 2008 7:14 am ((PDT)) Thanks for the reply - I finally had to persuade it to move with a brass hammer and drift. The individual before me allowed the oil to dry out and congeal. The dovetailed slide that the shoe fits on was stuck and wouldn't budge. Thanks again. ------- Re: Adjusting the stroke Posted by: "Geoff Kingma" gkingmax~xxinterlog.com Date: Sun Jun 29, 2008 3:59 pm ((PDT)) On my Ammco I find that loosening the ram lock bolt helps with adjustment. It is difficult to get everything lined up vertically so a little bit of movement for the yoke works for me. Geoff ------- Re: ammco shaper [Metal_Shapers] Posted by: "JohnW" John.Walkerx~xxatcopower.ca Date: Tue Jul 22, 2008 12:06 pm ((PDT)) "Ken" tymco123x~xxhotmail.com wrote: > I need a part for my ammco shaper it is the part that ratchets the > table part number S-804 Pawl lever and i need al the parts the make the > assimbly or working drawings so i can make something that will work. > Thanks for all your time. Ken: For something that will work, you can copy the Pootatuck ratchet mechanism. http://www.angelfire.com/sc3/shapeaholic/Pshaper.html JohnW ------- New Ammco shaper owner with questions [Metal_Shapers] Posted by: "cotuit992001" mcswflx~xxembarqmail.com Date: Sun Sep 28, 2008 6:45 am ((PDT)) Hi, just got a 7" # sh111501. Missing some parts. Have seen posts about the bull gear,has anyone cut one, if so any tips? Had to make clapper box & clapper; have good start on them. Need to figure out ratchet for cross slide, maybe open gear like in HSM article. Thanks Milton in S.W. FL ------- Re: New Ammco shaper owner with questions Posted by: "Jim B." btdtrfx~xxverizon.net Date: Sun Sep 28, 2008 7:58 am ((PDT)) This is for a different shaper but perhaps it will give you some Ideas I started with a steel blank, bored a hole for the shaft and broached a keyway. I then mounted it on an arbor on the lathe and turned the outside diameter. http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1326/641036497_0b814e74a8_b.jpg The ratchet I was working on had a decorative cove. This was cut using a router bit as a tool http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1283/641036523_0973e85507_o.jpg Next a step was turned and a Grey Iron wheel was silver brazed on and turned. http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1339/641037081_8523666f2c_o.jpg Then using the same arbor and an Index head the cogs were cut on my Burke Mill. http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1094/641115895_00b4a8d93f_o.jpg The finished ratchet works fine. http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1283/661156950_82212ec37e_o.jpg I can provide a similar discussion on the rocker if you need it. Jim B. ------- Re: New Ammco shaper owner with questions Posted by: "mikejanfx~xxjuno.com" mikejanfx~xxjuno.com Date: Sun Sep 28, 2008 6:48 pm ((PDT)) I had an open invitation to cut a new bull gear for anyone who had an AMMCO 7" for several years on the net, but no takers. I no longer will cut one since I got rid of the stock I was going to use (had to move). I was going to use a flywheel I had off a small car. The steel ring gear was knocked off and I was left with a marvelous piece of cast iron. Machine a center section for it that will work on your shaper. Bolt it to the fly wheel, make an arbor the size of your bull gear shaft, turn it between centers to the proper OD, and cut the teeth. Mike in Iowa ------- new to the shaper world [Metal_Shapers] Posted by: "ken" kkubx~xxloc.gov Date: Wed Oct 22, 2008 10:44 pm ((PDT)) I purchased a AMMCO shaper off of e-bay about 6 months ago for 250.00. It came out of Richmond Virginia so it's about an hour drive for me. When I first saw it I couldn't believe how good the condition was; no vise but I had one from another AMMCO shaper. The serial # is SH 132055 and has the war time production plate on the side. The only problem which Andy Fitzgibbon and I have been talking about is at times the table doesn't move right to left. I've taken a rubber and placed it around the direction knob to give a slight downward pressure which has solved the problem. Andy has said that the spring may be a little weak. Ken Kuban 202-707-1158 work ------- Re: new to the shaper world Posted by: "pkdickman" pkdickmanx~xxaol.com Date: Thu Oct 23, 2008 6:46 am ((PDT)) I assume that you are talking about the power cross feed. First clean and check the ratchet and pawl for wear and spooge packing. But the real culprit is that the crossfeed screw needs to have a little drag on it. If it doesn't, the ratchet pawl doesn't disengage on the backstroke and just cranks the screw back and forth. Just tightening the nuts won't work. Minor variations in thickness of the parts will cause it to have tight spots and loose spots. The solution is to put a spring washer on the left side of the crossfeed screw, between the nuts and the heavy washer. You have to tinker around to get the drag set right, but it works just fine. Paul K. Dickman ------- Re: new to the shaper world Posted by: "Kenneth Kuban" kkubx~xxloc.gov Date: Thu Oct 23, 2008 8:04 am ((PDT)) Thanks so much. Better than having a rubber band around the directional knob. Ken Kuban ------- [Metal_Shapers] Re: Wobble in WWII Vintange Ammco Countershaft Base. Feature or Def Posted by: "S or J" jstudiox~xxtbaytel.net Date: Sat Feb 28, 2009 9:58 am ((PST)) "jonas1thomas" wrote: > I was getting ready to mount the counter-shaft assembly on my table an I really notice much wobble in the base. I'd say it was between an 1/8 to a 1/16 of an inch. Basically, it was so bad that I was concerned about cracking the casting if I bolted it down the table as is. < Hi Jonas My countershaft base (flat belt version for a 6") is very flat on the bottom. So I suspect your casting warped a bit as it cured. Practicing scraping is a fine objective, but I would be inclined to get the machine operational before another 4 years pass ;-) There should be no threat to the base if you put a firm (but not rock-hard) piece of rubber or foam mat (similar to a router pad) under it. Bolt it down partially and see whether it is stable now, or still needs a shim before going further. Then tighten it down firmly. The mat should also reduce vibration and noise. And then, happy shaping. Steve -- in Thunder Bay, Ontario, Canada Machining and Metalworking at Home http://www.janellestudio.com/metal/ ------- Commencing AMMCO rebuild [Metal_Shapers] Posted by: "conwayd98" dconway00x~xxcomcast.net Date: Fri Sep 11, 2009 11:12 am ((PDT)) After almost a year, I now have time to devote to the AMMCO shaper I picked last year. The cabinet is almost done - had to replace the legs since the bottom 3 inches had rotted away - and it is time to start on the actual shaper. While I have rebuilt/restored a couple of lathes and horizontal mills this is the first shaper. Like all rookies I would like to avoid the common mistakes and would welcome any tips/info on the dis-assembly of the shaper - like the best way to remove the ram and removing the inner workings. In addition I am looking for an original type power switch - like the one shown in AMMCo/Delta manuals - looks like a simple on/off switch (not a typical light switch) anyone have any ideas on where to locate one? Dennis ------- Re: Commencing AMMCO rebuild Posted by: "Marty Escarcega" escarcegax~xxcox.net Date: Fri Sep 11, 2009 11:48 am ((PDT)) Dennis, I know this might be asking a lot, but I will be embarking on the same project this winter, if you would be so kind as to document your progress, perhaps some digital pictures as you go, I would be most appreciative. I have done a South Bend shaper for a friend. http://members.cox.net/escarcega/metal/metal.html But I've not done an Ammco. I do have the same machine, on the maple cabinet. I have to repair a leg, but will do that with a scarf joint. Thanks Marty ------- Re: Commencing AMMCO rebuild Posted by: "Dennis Conway" dconway00x~xxcomcast.net Date: Fri Sep 11, 2009 12:40 pm ((PDT)) Marty: Well you are one shaper up on me - nice job with the South Bend Shaper - in fact I'm looking at one now - unfortunately it's missing a couple of pieces so do not know if I'll try and buy it or not. I have started a photobucket album on the AMMCo so far just some shots of the cabinet but I hope to include some more pics soon. http://s265.photobucket.com/albums/ii229/dconway00/Shaper%20Cabinet/ Dennis ------- Re: Commencing AMMCO rebuild Posted by: "viajoaquinx~xxaol.com" Date: Fri Sep 11, 2009 3:51 pm ((PDT)) Dennis: Nice documentation of how the cabinet goes together. Are those lag bolts or threaded bolts with some sort of insert in the wood? BakoRoy ------- Re: Commencing AMMCO rebuild Posted by: "Dennis Conway" dconway00x~xxcomcast.net Date: Fri Sep 11, 2009 4:01 pm ((PDT)) BakoRoy: Those are square head lag bolts. I had to buy new as the old ones, especially those near the bottom, were badly corroded. Dennis ------- Re: Commencing AMMCO rebuild Posted by: "viajoaquinx~xxaol.com" Date: Fri Sep 11, 2009 4:41 pm ((PDT)) Dennis: Thanks for confirming that. I didn't think they were too high tech but until now all I have ever seen is pictures of the outside of the cabinet with primary emphasis on the shaper on top! As for an original style switch this is about as close as I have seen. http://electrical.hardwarestore.com/14-53-misc-switches/surface-mou nt-switch-617908.aspx Does your shaper have a lamp? I would really like the dimensions of the Z bar for the bell shaped light. I know it is 5/16 stock but can only guess at the length of the three sections between the bends. BakoRoy ------- Re: Commencing AMMCO rebuild Posted by: "Dennis Conway" dconway00x~xxcomcast.net Date: Fri Sep 11, 2009 4:54 pm ((PDT)) BakoRoy: I just looked at my Z bar and the approx. dimensions are 1 1/2" - 2" and 5 3/4 at the bends - difficult to measure accurately. If a pic would help, let me know. Thanks for the heads up on the switch - I think I'll order one. Dennis ------- Re: Commencing AMMCO rebuild Posted by: "viajoaquinx~xxaol.com" Date: Fri Sep 11, 2009 5:03 pm ((PDT)) Dennis: Thanks, that will get me in the ball park. All I have is the bracket screwed to the shaper body but if I ever get hold of a Delta lamp I can make something up. BakoRoy ------- Re: Commencing AMMCO rebuild Posted by: "Dennis Conway" dconway00x~xxcomcast.net Date: Fri Sep 11, 2009 7:40 pm ((PDT)) BakoRoy: I've seen the lamps come up through EBay - try tracking drill press through EBay as that is where I have seen them - sometimes referred to as lights for Delta drill presses. Dennis ------- Re: Commencing AMMCO rebuild Posted by: "Joe R" jromasx~xxcolumbus.rr.com Date: Sat Sep 12, 2009 7:54 am ((PDT)) Here's a picture of the cabinet I made for my Atlas 7B. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Metal_Shapers/photos/alb um/1351249940/pic/1038864822/view?picmode=&mode=tn&order=ord inal&start=1&count=20&dir=asc I used a picture of the Ammco as the starting point like this one: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Metal_Shapers/photos/alb um/798248416/pic/348781002/view?picmode=&mode=tn&order=ord inal&start=1&count=20&dir=asc It's held together using 3/8 all-thread from Home Depot to draw the whole thing together and keep it rigid. The sides are tongue and groved into the legs. The lamp on E-bay is used on Delta tools and I have one on my band saw. From the picture I've seen the originl Ammoco lamp is on a goose neck shown here: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Metal_Shapers/photos/alb um/2056144687/pic/list Joe R. ------- Re: Commencing AMMCO rebuild Posted by: "Andy FitzGibbon" wade8ax~xxmeer.net Date: Sat Sep 12, 2009 11:15 am ((PDT)) "From the picture I've seen the originl Ammco lamp is on a goose neck shown here:" The later ones had the lamp on a gooseneck. Earlier ones have the rod and parallel linkage. Andy ------- Re: Commencing AMMCO rebuild Posted by: "David G. Sampar" dsamparx~xxptd.net Date: Sat Sep 12, 2009 12:30 pm ((PDT)) Sorry, but Joe was right. Take a look at this 1950 catalog, page 26, from Delta it shows the goose neck light... http://www.owwm.com/pubs/1141/860.pdf Later Delta started using their 882 machine light that was used on everything else. David ------- Re: Commencing AMMCO rebuild Posted by: "Dennis Conway" dconway00x~xxcomcast.net Date: Sat Sep 12, 2009 1:08 pm ((PDT)) So it sounds as though they used both style lights just at different times/production runs? The bracket on my shaper has two holes one for the light mounting arm and the other for the cord. Dennis ------- Re: Commencing AMMCO rebuild Posted by: "Andy FitzGibbon" wade8ax~xxmeer.net Date: Sat Sep 12, 2009 4:11 pm ((PDT)) David, AMMCO was using the 882 light on the shapers as early as 1946. Both AMMCO and Delta brochures show the 882. The gooseneck light shown in your link came along later. I have only ever seen it in Delta/Rockwell literature, and on Delta/Rockwell-badged machines. There was also another style of light, that was used on the earliest AMMCOs (with the flat-belt drive). It mounted to the table top next to the shaper, and had several joints. There is an example of that light here: http://www.lathes.co.uk/ammco/index.html Andy ------- Re: Commencing AMMCO rebuild Posted by: "David G. Sampar" dsamparx~xxptd.net Date: Sun Sep 13, 2009 9:37 am ((PDT)) Andy, I have 2 early AMMCO 6", flat belt shapers, neither of which has provision for a light bracket. I have a Delta shaper, serial number 100-328, which indicates it was produced in 1951 according to this list. http://wiki.owwm.com/DeltaSerialNumbers.ashx The Delta shaper has the goose neck lamp with the long, single hole bracket. The 882 lamp starts showing up in the 1955 and later Delta catalogs. Despite what is said on http://www.lathes.co.uk/ammco/index.html, I believe AMMCO was the original producer of the shaper and later (~1950) sold the design to Delta. Delta OEM'd this shaper to AMMCO for sale in the 50s. I have a copy a manual, dated 10/20/50, titled - No 27-100 Delta-Milwaukee, AMMCO 7" Precision Shaper... PM-1737, which shows cross references to both Delta and AMMCO part numbers. A later version, dated 12/17/51 of the same PM-1737 manual drops any reference to AMMCO. There is even more confusion in the later manual since it shows pictures of the 882 lamp in the write up, but shows the gooseneck lamp and bracket in the illustrated parts list. As far as the brochures go, they are essentially identical, and I believe produced by Delta in the 50s. I have never seen any AMMCo documentation on their shapers, so I cannot comment from their perspective. I have an AMMCO badged Delta shaper, serial number SH 1143805, that has the bracket for the 882 lamp. I have no reference by which to date this shaper. David ------- Re: Commencing AMMCO rebuild Posted by: "Andy FitzGibbon" wade8ax~xxmeer.net Date: Sun Sep 13, 2009 11:32 am ((PDT)) David: My AMMCo (SN 664958), which was purchased new in 1946 by a good friend of mine. It has the 882 lamp. Everything on the machine is original (he may have only used it five times or so, if that). The machine came with all of the original paperwork, including the following: No. 5 Instructions and Parts Price List (December 1941, updated to 5/1/46 by rubber stamping updated information on the pages) March 1945 brochure and price list (this is the same brochure as what Scott Logan has available for download on his site) April 1945 brochure (smaller, pamphlet sized) May 1, 1946 price list Packing list, dated 6/6/46 The No. 5 Instructions and Parts Price List does not show a lamp in any of the drawings, and does not mention one in the text. Both brochures show the 882 light. The price lists and packing list all mention an "adjustable lamp" as standard equipment. Based on all this, and the various other machines I have owned or seen, lamps mounted to the side of the shaper *probably* become standard equipment sometime in the '40s. It appears that the 882 lamps were used until 1950-51, when (as you mention) Delta acquired the design of the machine. At that point they apparently started using the gooseneck style lamp. Since you mention that the 882 lamp is shown again in the 1955 catalog, they apparently either went back to using it, or possibly were just using old stock photos to produce their catalogs. I have never seen a Delta shaper with an 882 light, other than in catalog or brochure pictures, which makes me think they may have been recycling old photos. Do you have any data on Delta OEMing the shapers to AMMCO? I hadn't heard about that before, and would be interested to know how long that went on. You are correct in saying that the Delta and AMMCO brochures (the ones Scott has available for download) are indentical other than the color and applicable text. Regarding the flat-belt AMMCOs- the only style of factory light I have ever seen on those is the one that attaches to the table top, shown in the lower photo on the lathes.co.uk page (that I linked to in my last post). That is why they don't have the holes drilled in the column. Andy ------- Re: Commencing AMMCO rebuild Posted by: "David G. Sampar" dsamparx~xxptd.net Date: Sun Sep 13, 2009 2:23 pm ((PDT)) Andy: Here is a link to the Delta/AMMCo manual dated 10-20-50... http://www.kinzers.com/don/MachineTools/techman/AMMCO-27-100.pdf How does compare it to your No 5 Instructions and Parts Price List? There are no pictures or mention of a light in that Delta manual. Is there any chance you could scan your documentation and make it available for the rest of the community?? In regard to your one comment, Delta was notorious for recycling old stock photos and artwork. ------- Re: Commencing AMMCO rebuild Posted by: "Andy FitzGibbon" wade8ax~xxmeer.net Date: Sun Sep 13, 2009 2:46 pm ((PDT)) David: The core content is mostly the same (text and drawings) but everything is reformatted from the 1941/1946 document. I will scan everything I have and post it to the Files section. Will try to do it sometime this week. Andy ------- Re: Commencing AMMCO rebuild Posted by: "David G. Sampar" dsamparx~xxptd.net Date: Sun Sep 13, 2009 2:55 pm ((PDT)) Andy: That would be great... Thanks! David ------- Re: Commencing AMMCO rebuild Posted by: "nevadablue_1" nevadablue_1x~xxyahoo.com Date: Sun Sep 13, 2009 4:11 pm ((PDT)) I have a war years (has the war department sticker on it) Ammco shaper and the light is the bar/parallelogram one. I posted a picture here http://d.yimg.com/kq/groups/4295276/sn/1856698939/name/ammco+light.jpg under the photo section under Ammco light ------- Commencing AMMCO rebuild Posted by: "S. S. Kandul" machinistx~xxcoastalnow.net Date: Mon Sep 14, 2009 12:26 am ((PDT)) Hi, I have an AMMCO shaper to rebuild this year also. Mine is fairly intact as far as I can tell, but without original stand or light or switch. I am involved in helping a friend rebuild an Atlas 7B first and it has become interesting and frustrating as we are hung up in disassembly of the bull gear and main shaft and bearings. I bookmarked the picture bucket site and will follow your rebuild with interest. Please post any tips or tricks etc as you go. I hate learning by trial and error or using the bigger hammer approach. Regards, SSK ------- First AMMCo problem [Metal_Shapers] Posted by: "conwayd98" dconway00x~xxcomcast.net Date: Mon Sep 21, 2009 9:10 am ((PDT)) Well just starting to dis assemble the AMMCO 7 inch and looking for a couple of words of wisdom on the proper way to remove the ram. It appears that the internal yoke needs to be removed first and I'm not sure of the best way (not breaking anything) way to do this. Do you remove the bottom pivot shaft? Would welcome any pointers. Thanks Dennis ------- Re: First AMMCo problem Posted by: "viajoaquinx~xxaol.com" Date: Mon Sep 21, 2009 10:09 am ((PDT)) Dennis: Yes, you will need to remove the bottom pivot shaft by loosening the allen set screws in the collars accessible through the bottom of the casting. Reassembly is a real pain; give some thought as to if you really want to do that! By removing all the stuff from the outside including the base, what is left of the assembly is quite manageable and can easily be put in a tub and flushed with solvent and scrubbed down. Not really that much harder to paint that way either. BakoRoy ------- AMMCO pinion gear removal [Metal_Shapers] Posted by: "William Abernathy" williamx~xxinch.com Date: Thu Oct 1, 2009 9:34 am ((PDT)) Hey all. Got the top and bottom castings apart, and I'm trying to remove some of the works off the left side of the machine. From the looks of things, the main pulley (another wooden wonder) and the knurled handle are held on the shaft by the pinion gear (whatever you want to call the helical gear that meshes with the Bakelite bull gear). This looks to be held onto the shaft by a drift pin, but I have not had much luck tapping it out with a pin punch. Should I: A) get a bigger hammer, or B) regroup and find another way of removing the shaft? Thanks, William A. ------- Re: AMMCO pinion gear removal Posted by: "viajoaquinx~xxaol.com" Date: Thu Oct 1, 2009 9:47 am ((PDT)) William: The pinion is held on the shaft with a tapered pin. You have to carefully figure out which is the small end and tap it out from that side. If you have pounded on the big end, it will be very difficult to remove. BakoRoy ------- Re: AMMCO pinion gear removal Posted by: "Dennis Conway" dconway00x~xxcomcast.net Date: Thu Oct 1, 2009 10:18 am ((PDT)) Once you discovered the small end of the tapered pin, do not be surprised if you have to give it a fair whack to get it loose. When it comes time to re-assemble I use a marker to mark how the shaft and the gear mate up -- so you are not trying to drive the pin from the large hole in the gear into the small hole of the shaft and check the holes and the pin for burrs. BTW on my AMMCo which I am not re assembling, the multi step pulley and the knurled handle are held on the shaft by set screws so do not overlook those. Dennis ------- Re: AMMCO pinion gear removal Posted by: "ammcoman2" geoffx~xxca.inter.net Date: Thu Oct 1, 2009 4:03 pm ((PDT)) Hi. I believe it is a taper pin. But has been a while since I rebuilt my one. If you turn the frame upside down then you can see it better. If it is a taper pin you can see the difference in diameters. I remember using a drift punch to get it out -- I had to redo the bushings. If you need a copy of the manual and parts list then let me know. Cheers, Geoff ------- Re: AMMCO pinion gear removal Posted by: "smiling_man_us" radio1x~xxtech-center.com Date: Fri Oct 2, 2009 6:52 pm ((PDT)) William: As others have said, the pin is tapered. I recently was able to remove my pin after carefully inspecting each end of the pin and determined which was the smaller end. I ended up using a pin punch, hitting it with a hammer and worked my way up to a 2 lb. hand sledge before I could get mine out. I believe that Geoff/ammcoman2, advised me some time ago that the pin may not be straight. From his description it sounded like the pin could be partially sheared, creating a step on it that would prevent the pin from being removed. I found that this was not the case with mine, it was just very tight in the tapered hole. One thing that I noticed during the inspection was the large end was slightly battered, possibly at the time it was installed, and the small end of the pin was slight rounded. This may be a clue that helps you determine the large from the small end. The other problem that I experienced in removing the tapered pin was lack of a pin punch that was long enough to reach it and not worry about hitting the ways (I did it from the top) with the hammer. That was easily solved by taking an 8 inch long by a 1/2 inch diameter CRS bar and drilling a slip fit hole in the end that fit the end of my pin punch. The length of your bar would be determined by the length of your pin punch. radio-chaser ------- Re: AMMCO pinion gear removal Posted by: "William Abernathy" williamx~xxinch.com Date: Sun Oct 4, 2009 1:53 pm ((PDT)) Great minds think alike! I turned my own extra-long punch. It had a service life of about six whacks, which was all it needed! I do like the idea of putting a good punch in a longer "holder" -- I could get a good hard punch and not have to try my hand with drill rod, which never seems to do what I want... William A. ------- Re: AMMCO pinion gear removal Posted by: "Lou" ldakosx~xxbigpond.net.au Date: Sat Oct 3, 2009 5:23 am ((PDT)) G'Day all. I would like to make a small suggestion about removing tapered pins; using large hammers generally means damaged bits of machine or bending shafts which you will then have to fix. A tried and proved method, provided you have enough room to get at it, is to drill a small hole down from the large end about half way down being careful to keep it straight; then open the hole out to relieve the stress. I used this method on printing machinery for forty+ years. Regards Lou ------- Re: AMMCO pinion gear removal Posted by: "William Abernathy" williamx~xxinch.com Date: Sun Oct 4, 2009 1:06 pm ((PDT)) Thanks for this suggestion. I once used the method you suggest to liberate a stuck taper pin from a Heidelberg windmill part a pal brought in once (after heating and beating did not work). On a clear shaft, I agree -- drilling it and pulling it is a very good method, if you can ensure that you're perfectly aligned with the drill. When I used this method on the Heidelberg part, I bottom-tapped the hole, and used washers as a standoff for a small screw, which I used to pull the pin out. The taper pin at issue in the AMMCo shaper, though, attaches a pinion gear to a shaft about six inches down into the main housing of the shaper, on a freely spinning shaft. As such, it would have been extremely difficult to drill. As things worked out, I simply turned a 1/8" punch point in a 6 1/2" length of 1/2" drill rod, tapered the shoulder (so I could see what I was up to), hardened the point and whacked away. My attempt at hardening the point didn't work out too well (the tip bent, alas) but the taper pin shot out easily. So, I felt pretty good about making the tool I needed for the job. As soon as my concrete tub is free to work (after I'm done anchoring some 4 x 4s in the back yard for a clothesline), I'll be able to electrolyze the rust off the main castings. Then, it's painting and putting it all back together time... William A. ------- AMMCO pinion gear removal Posted by: "ncollarx~xxbellsouth.net" Date: Sun Oct 4, 2009 3:22 pm ((PDT)) Taper Pins. When I work with a taper pin the first thing I do is to find a way to shore up under the shaft. In doing this you have isolated the impact to the pin only. And one more -- the first drive is the best. If you mushroom the pin it will make it harder to remove. The more times you hit it, the more chance of flare. And yes Heidelberg was where I got my experience. A wonderful windmill. 28 yrs. in printing. Nelson Collar ------- Re: AMMCO pinion gear removal Posted by: "smiling_man_us" radio1x~xxtech-center.com Date: Tue Oct 6, 2009 9:25 am ((PDT)) > I would like to make a small suggestion about removing tapered pins, using large hammers generally means damaged bits of machine or bending shafts which you will then have to fix, a tried and proved method provided you have enough room to get at it is to drill a small hole down from the large end about half way down being careful to keep it straight then open the hole out to relieve the stress I used this method on printing machinery for forty+ years. Regards Lou < Lou, Good point! Now that you have brought it up,(and my memory is fuzzy now about it) but I believe I did support it with a short length of 2" x 4" wood. I am going to check the run out on the shaft before installing it. Would drill rod be a good substitute for the original if I need to build a new shaft? What about when time comes to re-install the tapered pin? How do I insure that the pin has a fit in the tapered hole sufficient to prevent the pin from working loose? Would it be as simple as just tapping it back into the hole until it stops going in? Don ------- Re: AMMCO pinion gear removal Posted by: "eng4turns" eng4turnsx~xxyahoo.com Date: Tue Oct 6, 2009 12:42 pm ((PDT)) Don, if you're just going back into the same hole, bang it in until it's solid. It's a self-holding taper and it's rare for them to work themselves out. If you need to clean the existing taper, see below onreamers. If you're making a new shaft and have to create a new taper hole: Taper pins are sized from the smallest to the largest by number. I think the smallest is like 000 and the largest is up around 7 or 8 - I don't have my Machinery's Handbook here so I can't look it up. But you should be able to get the sizes on an Internet Search. Taper pin reamers are available from all the usual tool sources. Measure your pin and compare it to the taper size and then buy the reamer to match. I'm guessing, but yours is probably a 2 or 3. While there are standards for the pilot drill size to use and how far to run the reamer in, I usually just measure the tip of the reamer, drill very slightly larger, and then ream a bit and test fit until I get it where I want, allowing about 50 thou for the last "banging in". Ed in Florida ------- Re: AMMCO pinion gear removal Posted by: "Lou" ldakosx~xxbigpond.net.au Date: Wed Oct 7, 2009 3:27 am ((PDT)) G'Day Don. When I needed a taper pin I used to buy them from an engineering supplier. I did have a bag of assorted ones but at the moment I can't find them. You could make one from a drill shank if you have one long enough. I have made them myself in the past and they are a pain to make, and when I did, I turned and threaded the last bit on the big end to make removal easier in the future. I don't know where you hang your hat but you might be able to buy them from a local supplier. P.S. Before you re-assemble the machine, put the gear on the shaft and check that the holes are not worn; you might have to give them a light ream with tapered reamer. Regards Lou ------- Re: AMMCO pinion gear removal Posted by: "jmartin957x~xxaol.com" Date: Wed Oct 7, 2009 12:43 pm ((PDT)) In a message dated 10/7/09, ldakosx~xxbigpond.net.au writes: > When I needed a taper pin I used to buy them from a engineering supplier > I did have a bag of assorted ones but at the moment I can't find them, > you could make one from a drill shank if you have one long enough In the States, you can find them in a hardware store in the fastener assortment boxes. The clerks likely won't know what they are, though. The taper pins are designated by the size of the larger end, and the sizes overlap. Instead of a short pin of the correct size, a long pin of the next size up will allow you to drive it until it fits and then cut off the excess. Also to ream the holes a bit to get a good bore. After the pin has been fitted, mark it or the surrounding piece with a prick punch so you'll know which end is which when you have to remove it the next time. And write down someplace what the marks mean. John Martin ------- AMMCo table questions [Metal_Shapers] Posted by: "conwayd98" dconway00x~xxcomcast.net Date: Fri Oct 2, 2009 3:09 pm ((PDT)) The rebuild of the AMMCo 7-inch continues with the cabinet completely refinished and most of the shaper back together and given a couple of test runs - very smooth. My questions concern the table. The top of the table has two degree marks on it showing 0 degrees and 10 degrees - would these be factory markings or perhaps added after the fact by a previous owner? Any thoughts ? Second, none of the holes in the table are tapped - I believe this is relatively common in shapers - has anyone tapped the holes for hold down studs or is this considered bad form in shapers? Dennis ------ Re: AMMCo table questions Posted by: "Andy FitzGibbon" wade8ax~xxmeer.net Date: Fri Oct 2, 2009 3:27 pm ((PDT)) The degree marks are factory. On the holes, I believe they were intended to be tapped by the end user if they so desired. Andy ------- Re: AMMCo table questions Posted by: "viajoaquinx~xxaol.com" Date: Fri Oct 2, 2009 3:51 pm ((PDT)) Dennis: Those are factory degree markings on the table to correspond with the markings on the base of the vise. As for tapping the holes, you could do so but would likely need to drill them for a particular tap size. I have just used 1/4-20 grade 8 bolts and nuts the few times the vise didn't work. BakoRoy ------- Re: AMMCo table questions Posted by: "William Abernathy" williamx~xxinch.com Date: Sun Oct 4, 2009 1:08 pm ((PDT)) Degree marks presenting themselves to me when I pulled the table out of the derusting bath. They look stock. If not, it's quite a coincidence... William A. ------- More surprises... [Metal_Shapers] Posted by: "William Abernathy" williamx~xxinch.com Date: Wed Oct 7, 2009 2:45 pm ((PDT)) I derusted the countershaft frame on my AMMCo and found that the countershaft is borne on Babbit. Is this normal, or have I found another jungle kludge? The countershaft is locked fast (won't turn, and attempts to extract it have started to crack the casting -- brazing to follow... sigh...), and I'll probably have to melt it out regardless, but I'm curious. Once I get the torch out, and the Babbit metal dribbles out, what (if any) cleanup will I have to do on the casting, and what sort of bearing will I need to replace it? Are oilite bushings good enough or should I be looking for roller or ball bearings? Also, I am missing a few pieces, and one of them (the feed adjusting lever, S80-3) is broken, with half missing. Are there any suppliers for parts, or am I going to be whittling my own and/or at the tender mercies of eBay? Thanks, William A. ------- Re: More surprises... Posted by: "viajoaquinx~xxaol.com" Date: Wed Oct 7, 2009 4:32 pm ((PDT)) William: That babbit is original! I'm not sure how you are trying to get it out but since it is simple piece of 3/4" cold rolled steel, I would cut the middle part out with a hack saw, chamfer the edges and then oil everything real well and put some vise grips on the outside and start twisting. Don't melt out the babbit, you will have crabgrass problems if you do because the inside of the hole is unfinished and you will have a heck of a time getting any other bearing material in there. My own Ammco project met with a slight 15 year delay as I tried to figure out what to do about the missing babbit. My solution? I replaced the babbit! BakoRoy ------- Re: More surprises... Posted by: "William Abernathy" williamx~xxinch.com Date: Thu Oct 8, 2009 12:23 am ((PDT)) Well...I'm pretty sure that A) the Babbitt is shot (the shaft won't turn, and if I do apply enough force to make it turn, it won't be a smooth running bearing surface, by any stretch) and B) by the time I'm done brazing the casting where it's cracked, all of about 3 inches away from the Babbitt, that Babbitt will have run out onto my shoe. Anyone poured these? Love to hear your advice. Also, if there are good online references, I'd love to see them. Thanks, William A. ------- Re: More surprises... Posted by: "Alan R. Lapp" alanlappx~xxlevelfive.com Date: Thu Oct 8, 2009 9:28 am ((PDT)) Check Lindsay books - they will surely have a reprint of a treatise on pouring babbit. My recollection of hearing it discussed in the Antiques section of Practical Machinist is that you have to make a liquid-tight collar which centers the shaft in the casting, and precision is necessary to properly align the shaft. The shaft itself forms the bearing surface. The molten babbit is poured in from the outside. Clearly, it must be poured one side at a time. Then there is scraping, which I'm not qualified to explain. a ------- Re: More surprises... Posted by: "Andy FitzGibbon" wade8ax~xxmeer.net Date: Thu Oct 8, 2009 1:09 pm ((PDT)) The general idea is to align the shaft within the casting (Babbit removed), by whatever means is available, so that after the Babbit is poured the shaft bores will be accurately located. Usually Babbit clay is used to create dams to keep the Babbit where it needs to be, rather than running out. Since the AMMCo countershaft does not have split bearings, each bearing will be poured in one shot, and they won't be scraped. Lindsay has a couple books on Babbit work, which have a lot of good information. Andy ------- Re: More surprises... Posted by: "J R Williams" jrwillmsx~xxhal-pc.org Date: Thu Oct 8, 2009 1:18 pm ((PDT)) Is it possible to bore out the old bearing enough to obtain a clean bore and make a new shaft to fit the bearing? It might be easier than removing and pouring a new bearings). JRW ------- Re: More surprises... Posted by: "jmartin957x~xxaol.com" Date: Thu Oct 8, 2009 1:35 pm ((PDT)) Might be, depending on the type/grade of babbit used. Some of it tends to tear and smear so that it is tough to get a decent surface. On the other hand, you could probably get a surface decent enough to hold a pressed-in bronze or Oilite bearing. Or even a ball bearing, if there is enough room. My Parks planer (wood planer) has a ball bearing cutterhead, but the bearings are mounted in lead or babbit. That's the way they were made -- I guess it saved them from having to accurately bore for the bearing seats. Apparently, they installed dummy pieces on the cutterhead shaft, aligned the shaft, poured in the molten metal, then replaced the dummy pieces with ball bearings. Pouring babbit isn't that difficult, though. You can melt it on the kitchen stove if you need to. John Martin ------- Re: More surprises... Posted by: "doc" n8as1x~xxaol.com Date: Thu Oct 8, 2009 2:24 pm ((PDT)) Knowing nothing abt your shaper, but having bored out & made/replaced quite a few bearings w/ bronze bushes, it wud seem that solves ur problem ...the inside may have been left somewhat rough to lock in the babbit .. Viz: the babbit spindle bearings on my 14 in Reed are poured in cast iron housings w/ dovetail / keyway cuts to anchor the Babbitt, so it doesn't spin out. Best wishes Docn8as ------- Re: More surprises... Posted by: "Dennis Conway" dconway00x~xxcomcast.net Date: Thu Oct 8, 2009 2:59 pm ((PDT)) Following this thread regarding the countershaft bearings. Having just completed the cleaning and restoration of my AMMCo 7 inch I noted that my countershaft bearings are indeed bronze bearings. Checked the parts book and part # S021 calls for .626 I.D., 815 O.D. x 1" long, Bearings, Plain Bronze. While perhaps a design change from earlier models it does show that bronze bearings were used and perhaps may be an alternative for you. I also changed out the fiber washers called for between the pulleys and the casting with needle bearings as the fiber washers were shot and I could not find a suitable substitute. Regards Dennis ------- Re: More surprises... Posted by: "Clive Foster" clive_fosterx~xxtalk21.com Date: Fri Oct 9, 2009 12:13 pm ((PDT)) Might be worth considering steel backed dry bearing shells such as those made by Glacier instead of bronze bushes. More tolerant of intermittent, or no, lube. Probably well up to the speed and loads involved as they can be used in place of needle rollers. http://www.ggbearings.com/ I've good experiences when using them in light duty applications. Clive ------- Re: More surprises... Posted by: "smiling_man_us" radio1x~xxtech-center.com Date: Fri Oct 9, 2009 12:41 pm ((PDT)) Dennis: Which parts book are you referring to? I don't have one and don't see one the part number you are referring to in the AMMCO Manual. Is this parts book in the files section? I measured the bronze bearing that I removed worn bearings from my AMMCO and their dimensions I am sure reflects the wear to the bearings. I tried Boston Gear and their parts list only has bearings that are close to the size of mine. Actual sizes of all bushings would be good to know. Don ------- Re: More surprises... Posted by: "William Abernathy" williamx~xxinch.com Date: Fri Oct 9, 2009 1:38 pm ((PDT)) Allow me to set speculation to rest... One of the group members is a pro machinist at the University and offered to help out using his shop. He tried busting loose the shaft by holding it in a locked lathe chuck and torquing on the casting (by hand). No joy. So, we cut out the center of the shaft and pressed out the halves. One bearing was kinda loose, and the other one was rusted in place (rust, not solder). The frame itself has picked up a twist, which may be either the cause or the result of the small crack in one of the arms that supports the Babbitt bearings. So, I'll cut and insert a piece of drill rod to emulate the shaft, braze the crack, and see if the new shaft turns once everything's cooled down. If I have a hopelessly twisted frame, I'll try line boring the existing Babbitt. If that doesn't work, it's new bearing time, and I think pouring Babbitt will be easier than re-machining the frame to accept oilite bushings or needle bearings. One question...is 1725 RPM (works out to 282 SFM on a 5/8" shaft, unless my math is wildly off) a "high speed" (i.e., tin-Babbitt) or "low speed" (lead-Babbitt) application? W ------- Re: More surprises... Posted by: "Dennis Conway" dconway00x~xxcomcast.net Date: Fri Oct 9, 2009 2:04 pm ((PDT)) Don: The dimensions are from a AMMCo manual dated 1951 - somewhere I picked up a PDF file although it is not the same file as offered on this site. The file is quite large at 38.9MB so I do not know if it can be uploaded to the site. Perhaps the moderator or another member can tell me. If all else fails, send me your email address and I'll send it as an attachment. Dennis ------- Re: More surprises... Posted by: "David G. Sampar" dsamparx~xxptd.net Date: Fri Oct 9, 2009 3:22 pm ((PDT)) Take a look in the "Links" Section of the group and you will find "AMMCO & Delta/Milwaukee Brochures & Manual" http://www.lathe.com/catalogs David ------- Re: More surprises... Posted by: "johann_ohnesorg" bigdukeonex~xxgmx.de Date: Sat Oct 10, 2009 4:05 am ((PDT)) Dear William, in case you choose the Babbitt way, read here: http://members.optusnet.com.au/terrybrown/MainsRepairPg1.html This guy did it and he explains it very well with loads of pictures. Cheers, Johann ------- Re: More surprises... Posted by: "Rexarino" rexarinox~xxgmail.com Date: Fri Oct 9, 2009 11:34 pm ((PDT)) William, I'm sure that 1725 rpm is high speed (tin-babbitt), but only because my long departed father told me something to that effect; the memory of that conversation is deep in my muddy memory. Rex ------- Re: More surprises... Posted by: "pkdickman" pkdickmanx~xxaol.com Date: Sun Oct 11, 2009 6:03 pm ((PDT)) Your math is off. My ammco has oilite bushings in there, but you forgot about the reduction in speed from the pulleys. I didn't measure, but there is a approx 3/1 reduction in speed between the motor and the jackshaft. The shaft is turning at 575 rpm and has about 94 sfm. Paul K. Dickman ------- Re: More surprises... Posted by: "William Abernathy" williamx~xxinch.com Date: Sun Oct 11, 2009 7:49 pm ((PDT)) Paul: Thanks for this. As it turns out, my assumptions were wrong, not my math. The shaper I have came with no motor or motor pulley, so I was assuming a 1:1 ratio to be conservative. I have the PDF that's on file with the group (Titled No. 27-100 Delta-Milwaukee, Ammco 7" Precision Shaper for Metalworking: Instruction Manual PM-1737], and now that you've mentioned this, I've checked it out and had (yet) another question answered by reading the fabulous manual. This does state that the motor has a 2" pulley and that the primary pulley on the jackshaft is a 6" pulley, hence the 3:1 reduction you accurately estimate. I didn't notice this before, as there's no pretty picture of the motor or primary pulleys in the manual, and I'm not quite dreary enough to pore over the parts list for pleasure. Until now. This being said... Assuming 575 RPM/94 SFPM...lead or tin? Sounds like we're heading back into lead country... William A. ------- Derusting question [Metal_Shapers] Posted by: "William Abernathy" williamx~xxinch.com Date: Wed Oct 14, 2009 3:00 pm ((PDT)) I've stripped the rust and old paint off all the castings on my AMMCo 7". One chunk, the Main Frame (part 215-01) remains. I have been suitably impressed by how vigorously the electrolytic action removes rust and paint from the immersed parts; however, I am concerned about losing the AMMCo manufacturer's badge and the witness mark that are riveted to the side of the frame. For those of you who've faced this conundrum, how did you deal with it? My options, as I see them, are either to drill out the rivets or to apply a mask of some sort to the badges. If the latter, what sort of mask stands up well to the electrolytic action? Thanks, William A. ------- Re: Derusting question Posted by: "ammcoman2" geoffx~xxca.inter.net Date: Wed Oct 14, 2009 3:16 pm ((PDT)) I removed the badges on mine before the stripping operation. Just prised the drive screws out using a mini-nail puller. It was quite easy. Looks more like a pro job when the tags are put back on after painting. Just hammer them in with a piece of aluminum held between the hammer and the drive screws. Geoff ------- Re: Derusting question Posted by: "Dennis Conway" dconway00x~xxcomcast.net Date: Wed Oct 14, 2009 3:19 pm ((PDT)) I think the best option is to remove them, at least that is what I did. I cut a slot in the head of the rivet and then was able to use a small screwdriver to remove the rivet. If you need some replacement rivets, actually they call them drive screws, let me know since I had to buy a box of them. Dennis ------- Re: Derusting question Posted by: "Joe R" jromasx~xxcolumbus.rr.com Date: Wed Oct 14, 2009 3:55 pm ((PDT)) If the holes for the rivets go all the way through and you can get to the back side a small punch can be uses to pop them out. Joe R. ------- Re: Derusting question Posted by: "William Abernathy" williamx~xxinch.com Date: Wed Oct 14, 2009 9:48 pm ((PDT)) How did you cut the slots? I think I'll replace them with fasteners that don't look like rivets! William A. ------- Re: Derusting question Posted by: "Joe R" jromasx~xxcolumbus.rr.com Date: Thu Oct 15, 2009 3:29 am ((PDT)) William. I have used a small cut off wheel in a Dremel tool to cut slots in the rivets to get them out. Just stay clear of the plaque you want to get off. Joe R ------- Re: Derusting question Posted by: "Dennis Conway" dconway00x~xxcomcast.net Date: Thu Oct 15, 2009 5:10 am ((PDT)) Like others I used a Dremel cut-off wheel to cut the slots. This will weaken the rivet head so be careful as the head likes to break off. I tried some 4 x 40 screws but did not like the way they looked. Dennis ------- AMMCO table elevation gears binding [Metal_Shapers] Posted by: "Lurch" lurch9x~xxcharter.net Date: Mon Oct 26, 2009 4:35 pm ((PDT)) That's what was happening--my table elevation bevel gears were binding [as in meshed too closely]. Couldn't adjust it out--both gears are pinned to their shafts and the back sides of the gears ride right on the base casting itself--no shims to remove and I don't have a taper-pin reamer. So I took everything apart, and my plan is to cut ~.005 off the back side of the crank gear [as opposed to 'screw gear'] and and put a .005 shim on the outboard end of the shaft between the base casting and the crank knob. If it shows improvement, I'll keep cutting .005 and adding .005 shims til the 'tooth-bottoming binding' is gone. Before I start making chips, anyone else ever had this problem and found a better way to address it? Other than the obvious replace both gears with a shaft coupling and drill a hole in the benchtop...:-)? Regards, Brian KA9EGW ------- Re: AMMCO table elevation gears binding Posted by: "viajoaquinx~xxaol.com" Date: Mon Oct 26, 2009 5:14 pm ((PDT)) Brian: The collar on the screw above the base is what carries the load; make sure it hasn't crept up allowing the bevel gear to drop down. That may be your binding problem. BakoRoy ------- cross feed screw [Metal_Shapers] Posted by: "Lurch" lurch9x~xxcharter.net Date: Wed Nov 4, 2009 3:57 pm ((PST)) On my 7" ammco, on the left end of the cross feed screw, are a [loose] setscrewed collar and 2 nuts...all outboard of the casting. The manual downloadable from the files section shows another part inside the casting, but the nomenclature is ambiguous. What *should* be there? I'm going buggy trying to get enough drag on the screw to actuate the ratchet without jamming the works altogether. I'm getting the distinct impression that collar should be *inboard* of the casting wall, or there should be 2 of them, with 2 fixture washers and a spring on the ouside, to allow setting tension without jamming it outright? Anyone who could post a closeup pic of this part of their ammco I'd sure appreciate it. regards, Brian ------- Re: cross feed screw Posted by: "Dennis Conway" dconway00x~xxcomcast.net Date: Wed Nov 4, 2009 4:10 pm ((PST)) You are correct, two collars one on each side of the casting. Each collar has a raised lug that fits in the groove of the shaft. Two nuts on the outboard side with a spring washer between them. Takes awhile to get the tension correct. Dennis ------- Re: cross feed screw Posted by: "Lurch" lurch9x~xxcharter.net Date: Wed Nov 4, 2009 4:54 pm ((PST)) Do you mean those collars are free to slide along the shaft but not to rotate, or are you referring to the setscrews? And the idea of the spring washer between the two nuts is kind of hard to envision...is the inner nut locked against the outer collar, then? regards, brian ------- Re: cross feed screw Posted by: "Dennis Conway" dconway00x~xxcomcast.net Date: Wed Nov 4, 2009 7:07 pm ((PST)) Brian: While my cross slide is apart at the moment the digital camera is not available until tomorrow. I'll send pics then. FWIW my cross slide screw does have a keyway in the left end and the tangs of the collars ride in this. I guess these are sort of a poor attempt at thrust bearings. Dennis [later message] Brian: Here is the pic of the parts on the left end of the cross slide screw. - nut-spring washer-nut-outside collar with lug - inside collar with lug and the keyway in the end of the screw [RUN NEXT TWO LINES TGETHER WITH NO SPACE] http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Metal_Shapers/attachments/fol der/1780325975/item/1271992103/view Dennis ------- Re: cross feed screw [1 Attachment Posted by: "viajoaquinx~xxaol.com" Date: Thu Nov 5, 2009 10:01 am ((PST)) I concur, my 7" has the same setup. However I would recommend that the wavy washer go between the inside jam nut and the outside collar to provide tension on the screw because a washer between two jam nuts is counter productive. BakoRoy ------- Re: cross feed screw [1 Attachment Posted by: "Dennis Conway" dconway00x~xxcomcast.net Date: Thu Nov 5, 2009 10:36 am ((PST)) BakoRoy: You are indeed correct - my apologies for the error. Dennis ------- Re: cross feed screw Posted by: "Lurch" lurch9x~xxcharter.net Date: Thu Nov 5, 2009 11:49 am ((PST)) Well, I'll be [insert verb of your choice]. I understand perfectly what they did on youse guys's---it's the identical setup in principle to the old harley friction steering dampener wherein the odd-numbered washers were keyed to the fork stem and the evens to the frame...or vice-versa, whichever...and the whole stack was compressed by a spring. However my AMMCO has NO keyway in that end of the shaft. Running production change? Who knows? Nonetheless, I shall engineer something along the same principles... Thanks Brian ------- Re: cross feed screw Posted by: "viajoaquinx~xxaol.com" Date: Thu Nov 5, 2009 12:17 pm ((PST)) AMMCO went through various changes and refinements. There was nothing on the end of the screw of a 6", just a collar with an allen set screw on the inside of the frame behind the ratchet. A wavy washer should still work regardless of whether there is a tooth and slot or not since it has to rub somewhere, nut/washer, washer/collar, collar/frame! You will want to check the gib on the table slide too, make sure the slide is clean and well lubed and maybe back off on the adjustment a bit. If the screw is hard to crank by hand, the auto feed will go on strike as well! BakoRoy ------- Re: cross feed screw Posted by: "Jordan" jwprincicx~xxbigpond.com Date: Thu Nov 5, 2009 1:11 pm ((PST)) > The drag on the screw to get the ratchety to work, is enough to require me to use my whole hand on the cross feed crank. I'm thinking the original spring went flying at some point and was replaced with what was handy. Opinions? Regards, Brian < There is no pawl spring on my Douglas shaper, relies on gravity only, works fine. I have also an earlier version of the same make, with a pawl spring. I gather they deleted it as unessential. The newer one is redesigned so as not to be able to easily fit a spring. So, I reckon a very weak spring in your case may well be enough. Jordan ------- FIXED was Re: cross feed screw Posted by: "Lurch" lurch9x~xxcharter.net Date: Sat Nov 7, 2009 9:48 am ((PST)) I pulled the pawl spring out, and the feed works fine now. What was happening was the spring was putting enough drag on the return stroke that by the time the end collars on the feedscrew were tightened up enough to overcome the return-stroke drag on the ratchet from the spring, it was anough to jam the feedscrew entirely. Now if only the shaper were bigger...but now that everything's running right and true, it's going to be FS--that is only IF I can swing a deal on a bigger one. Thank you VERY MUCH for the tip. Brian ------- New AMMCO shaper owner [Metal_Shapers] Posted by: "Steve" petraist732x~xxyahoo.com Date: Sun Feb 7, 2010 1:53 am ((PST)) Hi All, I been lurking for quite awhile and have ended up with something to post. I received my AMMCO 7inch shaper friday. I bought it from Gordon in the DC area and it made it to me here in Anchorage AK, quite an act of faith between the two of us and all ended well! Gordon battled record low temp snow to do a hell of a job boxing it and getting it to Forward Air for shipment to Anchorage. Can't say enough good about Forward Air, Good people, the biggest draw back it unless you have account they will only deal with a Bank check for payment. And Gordon is a heck of a fine fellow Also! I need a Shaper like a hole in the head but why not! My father worked for the Collins Company in Collininsville Ct; when I was young my mother used to drop my brother and I off at the shop if we were down in town around quitting time. We hung around and kept Dad Company; I can remember going through the machine shop. Like all the old time factories, Collins company were very self sufficient. Made their own power, had their own blast furnace, and forge shop box shop. They had a shaper line for refacing the dies in the machine shop. I remember tagging along with the old man marveling at the overhead pulleys and belts. And watching the shapers work. We passed through the machine shop on the way to the pattern shop that was above the machine shop. And visited with old Raymond Anderson the pattern maker. The old oak floors and that smell of those old buildings -- will never forget em. It was quite a place but gone now! I posted a file with picture of the project. The shaper came with the wood cabinet and the wheel system was adapted by one clever man. He took the standard rear wheels moved them under the cabinet and with a linkage system and an addition front caster made it lift up and roll around sweet as could be! I would like to shake that man's hand! The machine is not in bad shape; I got it cleaned up pretty well so far. I washed the cabinet with Murphy oil soap and it cleaned up pretty well, has a few dings but not bad. The shaper itself is in good shape. I used 409 and mineral spirits to clean it up, Looks like a shaper with some history! The drive shaft bearings were pretty well worn on the motor drive; I pressed them out and was surprised to see they look just like steel sleeve bearings and the shaft was damaged. I went down and picked up some Bronze bearing stock and will turn a couple out, make a new shaft, a couple of belts, and will be ready to make chips. It's going to live in my living room for awhile. It will fit right under the Picture of the Collins Company I have hung on my wall. You can get away with this when you are single! I included a picture of the moose that was in the driveway this afternoon! He was inspecting the snow blower just before I took the picture! I wonder if he would have liked to have a gander at the shaper. Best Steve Anchorage ------- Re: New AMMCO shaper owner Posted by: "Dennis Conway" dconway00x~xxcomcast.net Date: Sun Feb 7, 2010 7:52 am ((PST)) Steve: Congrats on getting the AMMCo shaper - shipped to Alaska - wow, what a road trip for the shaper :>) I have the same model with cabinet - had to replace the legs on mine as the bottom 3 inches had rotted due to absorbing moisture over the years. I know that I, and probably most other AMMCo owners would like to see details of the wheel system on yours. Mine just has the "wheelbarrow" system as from the factory. Anything that would make moving it easier would be a welcome improvement. BTW I have some "new" AMMCo decals that go on the bull gear door if you need one. Dennis ------- Re: New AMMCO shaper owner Posted by: "Steve Petraitis" petraist732x~xxyahoo.com Date: Sun Feb 7, 2010 11:06 am ((PST)) Dennis, I posted some pictures in the photo section of the wheels set up in the photo section. It is towards the rear of the photo section under Steve shaper. And while the shaper was off the cabinet, I had it upside down and photo'd the working parts It looks like he either made a bracket or found one to bolt the casters to. He then interlocked the fabricated front swivels so the cabinet lifts square onto the rear wheels and the front caster. It is cool and works nice. If you need any other pictures, I will be happy to send them -- just email me. Of course, anyone up this neck of the woods stop on by! The work light is cool also. Even has some laminate wood on the head of it. It came with the indexer and a couple of regular vices; the next thing I am looking for will be a shaper vice. Yes, Dennis, the sticker would be nice! Steve ------- rebearing power shart on AMMCO 7 inch shaper [Metal_Shapers] Posted by: "Steve" petraist732x~xxyahoo.com Date: Sun Apr 11, 2010 8:58 am ((PDT)) As I was putting together my AMMCO 7 inch shaper that I bought from Gordon this winter, I found the sleeve bearing on the belt drive gunny bagged. The AMMCO parts list I have shows it calls for 4 bronze bearings, but looking at it appears to be set up for babbit. The two bearing bores are surprisingly out of line. A friend of mine has one just like it and it's the same. It had been repaired with a steel bushing and that had severely damaged the shaft. We redid it with babbit and line bored it. And added the stop collars. So it is up and running, just like new! I will put a folder with pictures of the repair in the photo section under Steve AMMCO shaper. Now to find a vice! ------- Re: delta millwaukee shaper [Metal_Shapers] Posted by: "S or J" jstudiox~xxtbaytel.net Date: Mon Apr 19, 2010 10:58 am ((PDT)) "David" superdave257x~xxyahoo.com on Sun Apr 18, 2010 wrote: > I have one other question, the bull gear has been broken at one of > the stop pins, and is missing about four teeth. Would you know where > I could possibly locate a gear or have mine repaired, I really want > to fix this machine except for the broken gear the only thing wrong > with it is a bad case of surface rust, which I have just about > finished cleaning. I was lucky that I was able to get the machine > with the orignal vice. Hopefully someone will know where I can > locate a gear! < Hi David You are not the first to be vexed by broken teeth on an AMMCO phenolic gear, which is exactly what your Delta made AMMCO has. You will find it advantageous to read the AMMCO Metal Shaper file on my site. That file also mentions relocating broken or missing stop pins. Certainly some folks have found a gear from online auctions of parted out shapers, although a damaged phenolic bull gear may be a prime reason for one of these shapers to end up parted out. It may be possible to splice in a section of other material and cut new teeth. But that is not an easy task even with gears with normal straight-across teeth. Probably will work okay with a careful hand filing to match the existing teeth. Given the difficulty of gluing to phenolic, the new material should likely be attached in a dovetailed, physical manner with some epoxy added just to keep the dovetailed insert from sliding out of the dovetail. I recall that folks suggested that if they were ever faced with this situation, they would consider completely replacing the bull gear and its mate with: a more commonly toothed metal gear setup; or optionally use a cogged belt and cogged pulley setup; or optionally use a chain drive setup. Any of these replacement alternatives means more effort up front, but will make any future repairs a lot easier. regards Steve -- in Thunder Bay, Ontario, Canada Machining and Metalworking at Home http://www.janellestudio.com/metal/ ------- Re: delta millwaukee shaper Posted by: "David" superdave257x~xxyahoo.com Date: Tue Apr 20, 2010 11:43 am ((PDT)) Thanks for the timely reply. I may not of been too clear on describing the damage to the bull gear; the spot that is missing the teeth only goes half way across the tooth face leaving enough of the teeth so that the drive train works. My thoughts on this are that no matter how fast the stroke is set for, the spot should always be in the same place during the cut. Now if that is the case then there will never be any extreme pressure put on the weakened teeth and I should be able to use the shaper for a while till I can find a bull gear. I would like to just replace the phenolic gear with a metal gear of 2010 vintage, or as you suggested with chain and sprokets, which will probably be the easiest of all the evils. I was able to get all of the rust removed from all of the machined surfaces and a friend is repairing the guard that covers the v-belt from the motor for me which should be ready when I get back home. After the rains stop in Oklahoma I plan on taping over all the machined surfaces and sandblasting with a fine silica sand and painting it. I really lucked out as there was no rust damage in the ways, only some discoloring of the Cast Iron. Thanks to all that have provided information in my quest to resurrect this tiny example of early Iron; it is amazing how precise of a cut that you can make with such a simple machine when it is set up correctly. ------- Re: Serial Number [Metal_Shapers] Posted by: "Randy zeleny" zeleny2x~xxyahoo.ca Date: Fri Apr 30, 2010 1:27 pm ((PDT)) David wrote: > Randy is your Bull Gear in one piece, mine has a chunk broken out at one if the pin holes. I think the machine is useable won't know till I get it mounted on a stand. < Yes Mine is all one piece. I understand that the phenolic bull gear is one of the weak points of these machines. I believe that you can index the bull gear by removing the four screws on the center hub. I'll bet yours broke on the cutting pass side. There should be no reason that you can't index it 90 or 180 degres so that there isn't as much force on the bull gear when it runs on the damaged part. I bought this shaper off of an old machinist, who lived in Windsor. He was, as he says a lathe hand, so he never used this machine that much. It's all original and was in very good shape. The only problem I had was that he had the motor wired backwards. It was cutting on the fast stroke. Maybe he thought that it was like a steam hammer and it had to hit the metal fast???? Also don't tighten the stroke nut too much. It will cause the dovetailed slider, on the bull gear, to bend. This causes it to jam in the dovetail. If yours is bent, just remove it and press it straight again. Also if it is bent, the crank pin "orbits" a little out of kilter and the bronze slipper block wants to jam up in the yoke slot. ------- Re: Serial Number Posted by: "David" superdave257x~xxyahoo.com Date: Fri Apr 30, 2010 2:44 pm ((PDT)) I already knew about being able to index the bull gear and have done so leaving the gear in a position that will not have the broken spot in contact with the other gear during a power stroke. I haven't pulled the drive down completely, but will probably find as you mentioned a bent dovetail slide, as the machine is hard to index the stroke. This is my first shaper and I am not jumping into it like I did the first 9X20 lathe that I bought and messed up a couple of gears. I do hope to get the machine bolted down to something this weekend and maybe take some light cuts with it and see how it works. I have all the major rust cleaned off, but there is still some discoloration of machined surfaces that needs to be hit with a wet dry paper. Still looking for a gear but will when I have time probably go to Motion Industries and get straight tooth gears to replace the two gears with. David Thanks for the reply ------- [Metal_Shapers] Delta / Milwaukee [thread and also the "Serial Number" thread above] Posted by: "David" superdave257x~xxyahoo.com Date: Sun May 16, 2010 7:29 am ((PDT)) Finally got the shaper mounted and the drive unit in place and plugged it in. Little machine does one heck of a job even with a damaged gear in it; didn't take any pictures, still have to paint it. Ran it for a while playing with aluminum, iron, and some cast iron from an old gear box that I am using to feed my smelting furnace. So many project so little time!! David ------- 7" Delta Milwaukee [Metal_Shapers] Posted by: "David" superdave257x~xxyahoo.com Date: Tue Jun 15, 2010 10:08 pm ((PDT)) Well it's been a while since I asked about the broken bull gear in my shaper. I found a 96 tooth 16 DP gear that would work with the correct size bores in it, and an off the shelf 16 tooth gear with straight teeth that would replace the orignal gears. I posted a pic in the photo section in an album named superdave's junk. Now someone comment on what I did wrong besides not painting it battleship gray! [later message] Just posted a picture of the gears that are going to be replacement gears for the orignal ones as soon as I get them bored and drilled. ------- Re: 7" Delta Milwaukee Posted by: "Marty Escarcega" escarcegax~xxcox.net Date: Thu Jun 17, 2010 8:09 pm ((PDT)) Nice, keep us posted on your conversion and your source of the gears if they work. Marty ------- Re: 7" Delta Milwaukee Posted by: "David" superdave257x~xxyahoo.com Date: Fri Jun 18, 2010 3:59 am ((PDT)) The gears are not a perfect match. If they were, they would have spiral cut teeth. But they do match in most all the ways that are needed Pitch and tooth count and width of gear teeth being .5 inches. The little gear has to be bored from .5 to .625, for some reason I can never buy a gear with the correct bore size when I do this mix and match dance, but what the heck people said I couldn't get gears that would fit. The large gear the Bull Gear, has to be bored and recessed and four hole drill and tapped in it, piece of cake, Mill or Lathe hard choice to make, which one I will use to do the surgery with but it will get done. The old gears will be put into a state of induced sleep and stored in the base of the shaper for an indefinate period of time, but they will be kept with the machine so I can say I have all the original parts. Gears are from Martin, my local source in OKC is Power Equipment. Thanks for the compliment Marty. I still have to finish the guards; both of them had cracks. One had the mounting part of the guard broken completely out. The repairs were made via brazing after heating the complete guard with one of my furnace burners so that there would be no surprise pops and bangs while brazing. ------- Re: 7" Delta Milwaukee Posted by: "David" superdave257x~xxyahoo.com Date: Sat Jun 19, 2010 5:37 pm ((PDT)) > David, What are the specs and Martin part numbers for the two gears? > BakoRoy The part numbers are S16-96 on the large gear, and the small gear is an S16-16. People at Motion Industries here in OKC determined that the pitch was a 16 DPI, the large gear has 96 teeth and the small one has 16. Both gears have hubs, On the large gear the hub will need to be cut off when it is bored to fit the shaper; the small gear only has to be bored out to 5/8" to fit the shaft and then it will most likely get set screws as the original is pinned to the shaft with a tapered pin. Would be kinda hard (not impossible) to get the new gear to line up to drill and ream it, so set screws. Anyone in need of a replacement gear set, with a little work these two will put you back in operation. Took a little gas and all of two hours to track them down. ------- Re: 7" Delta Milwaukee Posted by: "David" superdave257x~xxyahoo.com Date: Sun Jun 20, 2010 3:47 pm ((PDT)) I started boring the new gear, which is going ok, but am at the point that I have to tear the little shaper back apart; but it just looks so nice and new what with all the new paint, and what parts that would shine, shined. But come apart she will only way to get the measurements I need. I should have measured everything before putting it back; the only really critical measurments I see are the depth of the counter bore and the hole spacing; the through bore can be a little on the big side with no problems, it being a steel gear. With phenolic I would want it to fit the shaft pretty snug. [and in a later message] Just posted a pic on my photo album that shows the gear in the lathe with the center bored out and the shaft set in it ready for some screw holes. I still have the little one to bore and drill for set screws; then I can put the shaper back together, hopefully for the last time for a long time. When I finish I will have a 7" Delta Milwaukee with an all steel inside. ------- Re: 7" Delta Milwaukee Posted by: "David" superdave257x~xxyahoo.com Date: Thu Jun 24, 2010 1:44 pm ((PDT)) Well I guess that this post will pretty well sum up my rebuild of my little 7" Delta. I lucked out and didn't have to bore out the small gear, it had a .5" bore and luckily enough the shaft where the gear goes was .5 also, so that helped out a lot. I drilled and tapped two 10X24 set screw holes approximately 120 degrees apart and installed the gear in the shaper. The two I presume leather seals on the main shaft I changed out with 3/32 dia. O-rings; these seem to have stopped the leaking oil. The 0.125 dia O-rings were just too big and would not compress enough to be able to use them. I installed Timken radial roller bearings behind all the sheaves, and under the set collar on the table height adjuster. The one on the table adjuster relieved the pressure needed to raise the table considerably (7/16 Diameter). That pretty much sums up what was done to the machine. I have had it running now for a couple of hours taking 60 thousand at a cut in depth with no problems; gears are very quiet with no binding that I could feel when cycling the machine by hand. I still have to clean and paint the guards and get them installed so MY dumba"" fingers don't get smashed. Baby's good for another 60 to a hundred years I think. David ------- Re: Delta Milwaukee Lamp Shade [Metal_Shapers] Posted by: "William Abernathy" williamx~xxinch.com Date: Mon Jul 5, 2010 8:28 pm ((PDT)) David wrote: > Anyone know where I can aquire a lamp shade for a 7" Delta Milwaukee. I need one for my shaper, I have the original lamp holder, and the Flex tube which is too rusted to really reuse, have a nice 1/8" cromed flex tube that I plan to use on my shaper but would like to find a shade, I think the retro look of the original just goes with the style of the shaper. David < What David said: I, too, need a proper gooseneck lamp to complete my AMMCo 7" shaper. William Abernathy Berkeley, CA http://yourwritereditor.com ------- Re: Delta Milwaukee Lamp Shade Posted by: "Joe R" jromasx~xxcolumbus.rr.com Date: Tue Jul 6, 2010 4:04 am ((PDT)) In a distant past thread it was determined that Delta used several different lamp shades. Knowing this may make your search easier. At one point they used a small chromed diecast one like is on my Delta 14" bandsaw. Joe R ------- Re: Delta Milwaukee Lamp Shade Posted by: "Larry Galvin" lnjgalvinx~xxmeritel.net Date: Tue Jul 6, 2010 12:38 pm ((PDT)) I have found that the shades are also the same ones used on desk lamps of the era so I have scoured the antique shops and e-bay for lamps and have come up with a few. Lg ------- Re: Delta Milwaukee Lamp Shade Posted by: "Bob Wright" aametalmasterx~xxyahoo.com Date: Tue Jul 6, 2010 3:59 pm ((PDT)) Check here for some neat lights and parts: http://www.vimcomanufacturing.com/productpicture.htm Bob ------- NOTE TO FILE: The main discussion in this next thread can be found here in the file named "Ammco Metal Shaper Disassembly". ------- Re: Teardown of AMMCO 7" Shaper Posted by: "David" superdave257x~xxyahoo.com Date: Sun Jul 25, 2010 10:36 am ((PDT)) One other question and I will shutup, what's your thoughts on replacing the bushings with needle bearings? ------- Re: Teardown of AMMCO 7" Shaper Posted by: "jr williams" jrwillmsx~xxhal-pc.org Date: Sun Jul 25, 2010 2:15 pm ((PDT)) David: Needle bearings require hard surfaces for the inner and outer surfaces. Stick with standard bushings. JRW ------- Ammco Part problem [Metal_Shapers] Posted by: "William Abernathy" williamx~xxinch.com Date: Sun Aug 15, 2010 12:07 pm ((PDT)) Hey all. I have my Ammco up and running! I fabricated a pawl pin, and though it runs a little proud when engaged, it does advance the feed under power. Now that I've put it all back together and made it go, I've discovered that I can't adjust the stroke. The stroke adjustment, as you know, is done by loosening the eccentric follower block inside the crank arm, and sliding the block closer or farther out from center. So far so good. The follower block rides on a pintle, which rides in a dovetail. When I had the shaper torn down, I could not adjust the slider, and found it to have been bent. I straightened it out using advanced hammer technology, and it slid freely before I reassembled everything. Now, Idi scover it has seized up again. My questions: 1) Is this a problem other Ammco users have experienced? 2) Is something I've done to blame? (I ran it for a few seconds at high speed with the full stroke length. Clearly a bad idea, even with no cutting loads!) 3) Can I get the dovetail/pintle out without tearing down the whole machine again? Thanks, William ------- Re: Ammco Part problem Posted by: "viajoaquinx~xxaol.com" Date: Sun Aug 15, 2010 3:04 pm ((PDT)) William, The problem os that the crank pin slider is soft steel and bends easily. Loosen the screw holding the block about 2 turns and then smack the top of the head with a mallet. BakoRoy ------- Re: Ammco Part problem Posted by: "William Abernathy" williamx~xxinch.com Date: Sun Aug 15, 2010 4:36 pm ((PDT)) I apologize for asking this, but I need to confirm it: you've done this with no ill effects? I'm not trying to call you out on this in that internet jerk sense of "I'm uninformed and yet I call BS," but rather, I am (I believe justifiably) extremely leery of any action involving the phenolic bull gear and a hammer. Pardon my extreme paranoia... William ------- Re: Ammco Part problem Posted by: "viajoaquinx~xxaol.com" Date: Sun Aug 15, 2010 7:33 pm ((PDT)) William, I made no mention of a hammer. Having disassembled the unit, I would hope you realize that the side of the bull gear opposite the slider is fully supported by the hub. I advised you to hit the top of the screw head to take the tension off the slider, not as a means of adjustment. BakoRoy ------- Re: Ammco Part problem Posted by: "ammcoman2" geoffx~xxca.inter.net Date: Sun Aug 15, 2010 3:41 pm ((PDT)) On my Ammco I find it helps to first release yoke/ram clamp before trying to adjust the stroke. Geoff ------- Re: Ammco Part problem Posted by: "David" superdave257x~xxyahoo.com Date: Sun Aug 15, 2010 5:34 pm ((PDT)) On my Delta which is similar to the Ammco, after loosening the nut I have to take a dead blow hammer and tap the nut before I can move the block that adjusts the stroke. Tapping on the nut will not hurt the phenolic bull gear if done lightly. If the brass block is very hard to move then the dovetail bar is probably bent again; mine was bent into a bow shape when I got my shaper. After straightening it out, I only tighten the nut enough to hold things in place. It actually doesn't have to be very tight to hold your stroke setting. ------- Re: Ammco Part problem Posted by: "David" superdave257x~xxyahoo.com Date: Sun Aug 15, 2010 5:43 pm ((PDT)) You can get it out without tearing the machine completely down. You first have to pull one of the pins out of the phenolic gear (be very careful if you do that so that you don't crack the gear). Removing the pin will allow you to slide the bent crank piece out of the bull gear. ------- Re: Ammco Part problem Posted by: "bobfarr101" robertfarr68x~xxhotmail.com Date: Mon Aug 16, 2010 2:55 am ((PDT)) William, Yes to all three questions. I'm a first time group poster, but I'm no rookie to AMMCO's (having made the same mistake on TWO machines). The pin that the sliding bronze block rides on is off-center of the dovetailed plate by design. The travel of that plate is inside of the bull gear and is limited by a pin at each end. It is possible during reassembly to slide that plate/pin assembly into the bull gear 180-degrees out of phase from its intended position. That will skew the stroke range. You can fix this without major disassembly. Unbolt the sliding block and remove it. Loosen the set screw on the bottom pin, and unbolt the ram link so that the oscillating arm can be slid towards the column opening. Remove one bull gear pin and now you should be able to slide the dovetail plate free of the bull gear, flip it 180-degrees and reinstall it. No AMMCO man should have a stroke problem. This should fix it for you, and nobody but the whole internet community ever has to know about it :) Good luck, Bob ------- Re: Ammco Part problem Posted by: "William Abernathy" williamx~xxinch.com Date: Mon Aug 16, 2010 2:06 pm ((PDT)) Thanks, Bob, and everyone else for your answers. As it turned out, the issue was not bending at the dovetail, but rather a slightly-too-snug nut on the opposite end of the bull gear shaft. There's a 7/8" nut on the right-hand side of the machine, which clamps down the feed advance mechanism. This nut was pulling on the hub plate, causing the dovetails to bind. Once I got my nails dirty and yutzed around in there, the answer became clear. The stroke is now fully adjustable. Please pardon my previous whiny posts on the matter! William ------- Re: Ammco Part problem Posted by: "David" superdave257x~xxyahoo.com Date: Mon Aug 16, 2010 5:29 pm ((PDT)) That nut is what holds the crank adjustment in place. ------- Ammco 7 inch [Metal_Shapers] Posted by: "John L" legowikx~xxcomcast.net Date: Mon Sep 27, 2010 5:36 pm ((PDT)) Does anyone know the original paint scheme of the Ammco 7 inch shapers? ------- Re: Ammco 7 inch Posted by: "S or J" jstudiox~xxtbaytel.net Date: Tue Sep 28, 2010 10:49 am ((PDT)) Hi John You might want to browse through the AMMCO owners' survey near the beginning of: http://www.janellestudio.com/metal/ammco_metal_shaper.txt There is no definitive answer there as users report variations. A "grey" or "green" are most likely. As for colour in general, there have been discussions here and on other metal groups about whether one should try to faithfully reproduce a particular machine's original colour -- or concentrate on making it operational and then actually using it. You might prefer to follow your own standardized colour scheme for all your shop tools. Racing stripes and flames optional. (Now that just might generate further comments ;-) regards Steve -- in Thunder Bay, Ontario, Canada Machining and Metalworking at Home http://www.janellestudio.com/metal/ ------- Re: Ammco 7 inch Posted by: "yugami1977" marc.brittenx~xxgmail.com Date: Sun Oct 3, 2010 7:39 pm ((PDT)) The ammco share a history with Delta Machinery. If you read through this bit of info from OWWM on Delta paint it may help you find some really authentic paint. One part of it talks about the weird green that some of the grey's turn into over time. http://wiki.owwm.com/PaintColorsDelta.ashx ------- NOTE TO FILE: Technically speaking the AMMCO produced AMMCO shapers pre-date the sale of the shaper design in 1948 to the company now known as Delta. The above experimentation with paint colour matching is likely a pretty good solution for the Delta-made shapers badged first as Delta Milwaukee and then Rockwell Delta. It might even be a good approximation of some earlier AMMCO-made ones, assuming that factory used only one colour of paint for its entire production run. That assumption particularly may not be valid for the shapers produced for the WW 2 era War Production Board. It still comes down to your machine, your opinion, your choice. ------- [Metal_Shapers] Re: Bull Gear Re: Removing the Ram on a AMMCO 7 inch Shapper Posted by: "Thomas Myatt" tmyatt090545x~xxyahoo.com Date: Sat Feb 19, 2011 6:58 am ((PST)) I purchased a new bull gear from the following company about 1 year ago. They apparently made 10 exact copies of the bull gear for AMMCO 7 shapers. If I recall, they said I purchased the last of the 10 but also made the comment they should make some more. If you are looking for a bull gear it might would be worth a call. My shaper is up and running great with the replacement gear. Tom Tillamook Precision Machine Shop 76 Trask River Road Tillamook, OR 97141 503-842-6283 ------- Bull Gear Re: Removing the Ram on a AMMCO 7 inch Shapper Posted by: "David" superdave257x~xxyahoo.com Date: Sun Feb 20, 2011 1:15 pm ((PST)) yes someone else did mention something along those lines, I replaced my gears with straight tooth spur gears from Martin, found ones that were a match in tooth count and size bored the big one out and countersunk the shaft into it to match the original, all I had to do on the small gear was to put in two set screws one into the tapered pin hole in the shaft to hold it in place. I did keep the old gears. there are pictures of the change in my photo album. The shaper runs as good as new without any noise from the gears. Maybe someone will ond day make duplicate gears out of the right material for the purest in the group. Myself I am satisfied with the metal gears although if I were to sell the shaper I still have the original to go with it. ------- Re: Removing the Ram on a AMMCO 7 inch Shapper Posted by: "David" superdave257x~xxyahoo.com Date: Mon Feb 21, 2011 7:37 am ((PST)) You have to take the whole shaft out by removing the nut that holds the excentric on the outside (takes a 7/8 wrenh on mine) this will allow the shaft with the gear to come out. Watch for the felt plug that is in the oil hole, if it's still there. Leave the pins in the phonelic bull gear alone that is what cracked mine (took about half of four teeth off). With the crank arm out you can then remove the gear and shaft from the body, the small gear on my shaper is held in place with a tapered pin (takes some looking but you can see which end is smaller) pop the pin out then the shaft will slide out through the side. Motor should turn I think counterclockwise, anyway you want it to cut on the forward stroke, just watch the bull gear. I'm sure you have figured out how to set the stroke. I run mine (no more then I use it) on a full stroke to polish the ways, although mine are in really good shape, just a few chip scratches at the front on one side. Did you get the original vise with yours? David ------- AMMCO 7" no vice [Metal_Shapers] Posted by: "John" ammonidahox~xxyahoo.com Date: Mon Apr 4, 2011 4:04 am ((PDT)) Hi, I just joined this group since I have the opportunity to buy a 7" AMMCO shaper for $100.00, but it had no vice. I noticed the pictures in the photos section show an extremely heavy duty vice that came with it, but was wondering if a 4" Harbor Freight vise would work untill I can find or make another one? Also, it has no tooling, but the cutter holders I've seen seem similar to ones used on my 12" Atlas lathe, would they work? Any help would be appreciated. ------- Re: AMMCO 7" no vice Posted by: "Bob Wright" aametalmasterx~xxyahoo.com Date: Mon Apr 4, 2011 7:13 am ((PDT)) I don't use the holders on my SB 7" shaper. I just use a thick washer and 3/8" sq tool bits. Sometimes I stack the bits to take up the extra in the slot. Any vise will work until you find one but I wouldn't pass up the shaper just because the vise is gone. Bob ------- Re: AMMCO 7" no vice Posted by: "Allen M" al_messerx~xxyahoo.com Date: Mon Apr 4, 2011 7:17 am ((PDT)) John, I see no reason why this vise will not hold material to be machined. A lot of the larger Shapers of yore used "hold downs" and straps to hold work without a vise. As to the tool holder, I don't have any -- don't need any on my SB-7. I use a 3/8" HSS tool bit ground to proper shape in the tool holder, backed up by annother 3/8" blank to provide rigidity. Have been Shaping this way successfully for years. Best wishes and good luck!! Al ------- Re: AMMCO 7" no vice Posted by: "William Abernathy" williamx~xxinch.com Date: Mon Apr 4, 2011 7:57 am ((PDT)) 1) If you haven't yet, grab it. 2) If you're talking about this harbor freight vise: http://www.harborfreight.com/4-inch-capacity-swivel-base-dri ll-press-vise-1631.html I think you'll have tough setups, as the moving jaw on those cheap vises tends to pivot around the work, and you'll have to mount the firm jaw up so that the screw will be facing the ram. You might do better looking for the Palmgren 425B or this 3" vise, currently out of stock at Victor: http://www.victornet.com/cgi-bin/victor/category/Lock-Tite-Prec ision-Machine-Vises/212.html You may need to do some lathe work to adapt either to the AMMCO table, which holds the vise to the table with a central screw/pintle arrangement. (Or the previous owner, faced with the same problem, may have given up and drilled some holes in the table already.) 3) As for toolholders, a simple lantern post (you don't even need a rocker) will get you started. These are easy to come by: http://www.use-enco.com/CGI/INSRIT?PMAKA=280-0015&PMPX NO=949100&PARTPG=INSRHI> for example. Good luck. We're all here to help. William ------- Re: AMMCO 7" no vice Posted by: "dales_workshop" gardner.dale.ax~xxgmail.com Date: Tue Apr 5, 2011 5:47 am ((PDT)) Forget about the Palmgren 425B. I searched exhaustively for one only to find out that Palmgren no longer makes them, and nobody but nobody still had any in stock. I've seen very few appear on Ebay, and the one that did went for fairly serious money. I finally found an Atlas Shaper Vise for $200. I believe Craig Donges has castings for a small, low profile shaper vise, but I could be mistaken. Dale ------- Re: AMMCO 7" no vice Posted by: "Jim S." mrjschmidtx~xxhotmail.com Date: Mon Apr 4, 2011 4:42 pm ((PDT)) John, I agree with the others -- grab the shaper now. Unless the AMMCO you are looking at is a complete junker, it has to be worth more than $100. Cutters can be held directly in the toolpost if they are right size, usually 3/8" in these size shapers. The HF vise you suggested is just barely usable on a shaper. The comments by Will Abernathy are valid, and I also read the reviews on the HF site which said the finish was pretty rough. This translates to inaccuracy on a metalworking tool. Unless you are willing and able to smooth it up and square it up, I think it will just frustrate you in your efforts to do good work. You might be better off to save your coins until you can get a better workholder. Orrrrrr--get some hunks of steel, figure out how to hold them on your shaper, and build your own vise. It is doable, just much work. Jim (Just a guy who likes to build stuff) ------- Re: AMMCO 7" no vice Posted by: "William Abernathy" williamx~xxinch.com Date: Wed Apr 6, 2011 9:54 am ((PDT)) James Rice wrote: > I have one of those on my Rockwell radial drill press and crude is being > generous. I've cleaned it up a lot and it does serve its function but > it's marginal at best. The problem with drill press vises is that they are not set up to take a transverse load. They are built to take a force from the top, keep the part from spinning, and transmit it all to the bolts holding them to the table. Mill and shaper vises can take a much more severe side/shear load, which is why they're so durned heavy by comparison to drill press vises. > If the shaper is functional, I'd use some milling machine clamping sets > and buy a chunk of steel and make a vise. It's tough to use clamping tools on an AMMCO, because the table does not have proper t-slots. Not impossible, but definitely trickier. > I would look at CDCO http://www.cdcotools.com/ at the 6" milling vise > for $119 or the 4" one for $95 if I couldn't find an Atlas shaper > vise or some other shaper vise. The 6" vise is definitely too large for this shaper. I am hesitant even to recommend the 4" vise, because it, too, would be pretty large for the AMMCO's humble table, but I think you could make it work. There are 3" vises out there, and they might be a better fit. Make sure you get a full set of dimensions on any vise against your table before you push the "Buy" button. > I've bought the quick change tool holders from CDCO and have been > pleased. Several friends have purchased rotary tables and dividing > heads from them and they seem to be decent. No connection, just my > observation on what I've seem from them in the recent past. James I have found CDCO to deliver as promised. They have the best deals going on AXA-style lathe toolholders by a long shot. Their other prices speak for themselves. William Abernathy Berkeley, CA http://yourwritereditor.com ------- 7in delta-rockwell shaper [Metal_Shapers] Posted by: "Gary Repesh" gjrepeshx~xxyahoo.com Date: Sun May 15, 2011 9:17 am ((PDT)) I recently finished the tear down of a 7" Ammco shaper. This machine was abused and, I believe, crashed in the past. I say this because the ram arm is made of steel and has no part number on it so it is an obvious replacement but fairly well made, the helical bull gear is steel (which I think is a plus), the brass slider is fairly beat up and will be replaced and overall it will need much TLC. It has also been run in a dusty environment so you can imagine the abuse on some of the running surfaces. What I have done so far: 1) Stripped off most of the crappy repaint. This exposed the original paint which will help in my repaint. 2) So far I have machined the base surfaces on the mill. Found out my mill was out of tram (oops) so the base for the frame mount was not parallel with the pad that the table foot rides on. Trammed the head, took another cut and now the surfaces are parallel with deviation less than .001. Must tram the mill before some procedures. 3) My pinion gear is quite chewed up. I don't know if this is from the prior crash or poor maintenance where chips got in the gears. The bull gear does not show this so the damage is old. The pinion gear would still work but I want to replace it. This past week I have researched all necessary factors needed to reproduce this gear on my Hardinge miller. Yesterday I cut the gear. The gear looked great but it didn't quite match the original. I went over my data and found a mistake. I originally computed the helix angle incorrectly. This angle is used to select the cutter needed to make the gear and I used the incorrect angle. The correct helix angle changes the cutter needed. I have another gear blank ready to go, another cutter mounted and I will be going out the shop to cut another gear after I finish the message. This is the first making of a helical gear so definitely a learning experience. 4) Another thing I've done is remove a lot of rust from many parts. I've been using Evapo Rust and am very pleased with this product. For the future: new bushings (some of the bushing were replaced in the past but no holes were made to allow oil to the shaft-ugh!), order some Gits toilet seat oilers from Enco, replace some shafts, fix a broken guard, scrape the ram and the ways in the frame, make replacement parts for missing and broken table ratchet pieces, and whatever else comes up. If you think there is anything I can help you with on your project give me a holler. Gary R. ------- Re: 7in delta-rockwell shaper Posted by: "William Abernathy" williamx~xxinch.com Date: Sun May 15, 2011 4:31 pm ((PDT)) Check out the group's files. There is a complete parts list/exploded diagram in there, with part numbers. It help for ID'ing parts. If you have a good phenolic bull gear, you're probably in pretty good shape. The rest you're going to have to scare up on eBay or elsewhere. W ------- Re: 7in delta-rockwell shaper Posted by: "David" superdave257x~xxyahoo.com Date: Sun May 15, 2011 6:09 pm ((PDT)) I used stock martin spur gears with straight teeth to replace the two gears in my Delta shaper, I can dig up the gear numbers if you need them all I had to do was to cut the hub off the new martin gear, cut the recess in it and open the bore up to 2 inches worked like a dream. ------- Ammco Pinion Gear Making Photos [Metal_Shapers] Posted by: "GJR" gjrepeshx~xxyahoo.com Date: Mon May 16, 2011 11:07 am ((PDT)) It looks like I have been successful so far (a running shaper will be the true final test). Photos have been posted under: Ammco Pinion Gear Making. I took quite a few pictures and selected 6. I used a v-block fixture to drill the hole for the taper pin. Using the Hardinge UM miller to cut the teeth. The original chewed-up gear. The finished new pinion. A test fit in the frame. Comparison showing new good pinion-original pinion-first pinion made with wrong gear cutter number. The gears mesh when cranked by hand. All I need to do now is get it all back together. Gary R. ------- Re: Ammco Pinion Gear Making Photos Posted by: "GJR" gjrepeshx~xxyahoo.com Date: Tue May 17, 2011 9:38 am ((PDT)) I had a request for more photos of the Hardinge miller helical milling setup to cut the pinion gear so I added a few more photos to those already posted. Let me know if this answers your questions. I appreciate any feedback. Gary R. [later message:] I made this gear from the shank of a large drill bit. I had a collection of used up big drills so it made sense to recycle some material for future projects. The shank was the right size for this project. I have a steel bull gear so I'll be running steel on steel. I haven't tested the original pinion for hardness. Does anyone know what material drills are made from? ------- Re: Ammco Pinion Gear Making Photos Posted by: "William Abernathy" williamx~xxinch.com Date: Tue May 17, 2011 2:07 pm ((PDT)) They're often (though not always) made from "drill rod", which is precision rolled and (if necessary) ground steel rod. Drill rod is shipped in an annealed, machinable state, is heat-treatable, and can come in oil-, water-, or air-hardening alloys. You make a tool with it, then heat-treat it and quench it as appropriate. There's no way to tell what kind of alloy yours is. If it were me, I'd make a few of the pinion gears (you've got the setup after all) and leave them unhardened, with the assumption/hope that the spendier steel bull gear would chew up the pinions over time. If you're hell-bent on hardening this, get it red hot, hold it there for a few minutes, then dredge it around in some Kasenite, which will put a good case-hardened carbon steel layer on the part. Not knowing the alloy, quenching something like may result in shattering the part. W ------- Ratchet gear [Metal_Shapers] Posted by: "rbaltzegx~xxbellsouth.net" Date: Fri Jul 8, 2011 3:39 am ((PDT)) In need of the ratchet gear or the feed gear that moves the table in increments for an AMMCO 7" shaper. I've been looking for a long while on ebay. Any advice would be appreciated. Thanks, Russ ------- Re: Ratchet gear Posted by: "viajoaquinx~xxaol.com" Date: Fri Jul 8, 2011 10:17 am ((PDT)) Russ, Ammco parts are pretty rare so you may need to fab something up. You might look for another machine for what you need and sell what is left. I have been looking for a motor belt guard for two decades. Are you looking for the gear or the whole assembly with the plunger? BakoRoy ------- Re: Ratchet gear Posted by: "James E. Bartosh" jbartoshx~xxcenturytel.net Date: Fri Jul 8, 2011 10:57 am ((PDT)) Hello Russ. If you can't find anyone here that will sell a spare, I can probably make one for you pretty cheaply. I'd just need to know the specs or if you have even a broken sample I can go off of to find the correct geometry. Check out my web-site and contact me through there with some details and I can sure get a quote for you. Thanks. James Bartosh 1-715-466-4464 Industrial Jig & Fixture www.industrialjigandfixture.com ------- Re: Ratchet gear Posted by: "Don Kinzer" dkinzerx~xxgmail.com Date: Fri Jul 8, 2011 11:05 am ((PDT)) If your shaper is otherwise working and you have a dividing head it is a pretty simple task to make one. The table will be locked in place for this operation so the feed mechanism is not needed at all. If you don't have the ratchet gear, perhaps someone will give you enough details about it to allow you to fabricate one. Don Kinzer Portland, OR ------- Re: Ratchet gear Posted by: "ammcoman2" geoffx~xxca.inter.net Date: Fri Jul 8, 2011 3:39 pm ((PDT)) Last year I finally got fed up with the ratchet gear on my Ammco. It would skip every now and then, and I could see the wear. If I remember correctly it has 26 teeth and they are a simple 60 degree V-shape. I recut them on my lathe using a dividing head and the cutter used was a threading bit mounted in a holder in the chuck. Just cleaned up the profile and now -- no more skipping. Had to make a new pawl as well. Geoff ------- What shoud I pay for an Ammco 7 inch shaper [Metal_Shapers] Posted by: "jimstack2158" jimsta1942x~xxroadrunner.com Date: Tue Oct 11, 2011 2:48 pm ((PDT)) I'll shortly be checking out a 7" Ammco shaper. At this time, I only have a picture to go by, but it appears it's missing the motor and belt guards, although the original vise and worklight are there as well as a stand. I've been offered a very good deal on it and possibly these parts are elsewhere in the sellers shop. I'm familiar with Logan, Garrett, Atlas and South Bend shapers but I've never seen an Ammco before. How hard is it to find these parts, or am I better off parting it out? My intention is not to keep it in any event as I don't have room for another machine. What's its value with and without these components. Thanks js ------- Re: What shoud I pay for an Ammco 7 inch shaper Posted by: "mikejanfx~xxjuno.com" mikejanfx~xxjuno.com Date: Tue Oct 11, 2011 2:58 pm ((PDT)) The vise is probably worth more than the shaper. The phenolic bull gear if good is worth something as well. Those are the two most sought after parts. The rest will be easy to sell, but the vise and the gear are the high $ items, guards coming in a distant 2nd. Mike in Iowa ------- Re: What shoud I pay for an Ammco 7 inch shaper Posted by: "viajoaquinx~xxaol.com" viajoaquinx~xxaol.com Date: Tue Oct 11, 2011 4:19 pm ((PDT)) I have been looking for an Ammco tear drop shaped motor belt guard for nearly 20 years! I sold a 6" Ammco vise which is nearly identical, for a little over $100 and the round door for about $25. The bull gear should be worth $75 so if you can get the whole shaper for $200, you are covered! I would be interested in the lamp depending on what kind it is. BakoRoy ------- Re: What shoud I pay for an Ammco 7 inch shaper Posted by: "David" superdave257x~xxyahoo.com Date: Tue Oct 11, 2011 7:39 pm ((PDT)) The guards should bring the highest price as they are not available anymore; the bull gear can be replaced with a straight tooth spur gear that will run as quite as the phenolic one. The vise will bring a pretty good price from someone that wants an original vice. Look at the guards very closely as mine had cracks in the lattice work. ------- NOTE TO FILE: Lamp for an AMMCO metal shaper or other workshop machine. I suspect many AMMCO metal shaper owners do not have the original lamp. Certainly mine was missing. Now if your intent is to light the work perfectly, and not merely duplicate the original lamp, then there are many alternatives. I recently acquired a Delta Magnetic Base Lamp Model 25-869 with 14" flexible neck and 8 foot cord. It nicely clamps to the left side of the shaper and handles the lighting task well. The same lamp also clamps securely to the side of my drill press and I can use it on several other machines too. Makes it a real bargain. I should note that I checked the availability of this lamp with a web search today (January 2012) and it is still being sold. One site (Amazon) had a number of customer reviews, pro and con. The pro comments matched my experience that this task light has a very strong magnet. Some users reported that the magnetic grip less than met their expectations. One fellow recommended peeling off the shiny foil covering the base (presumably there so as not to scratch a painted surface) to increase the magnet's grip. Mine still has the foil and has a bulldog grip. Anyway, I suspect you will find a good use somewhere in your workshop. Usual disclaimer, just a happy customer. ------- Re: AMMCO 6" shaper for sale/trade [Metal_Shapers] Posted by: "William Abernathy" williamx~xxinch.com Date: Tue Jan 17, 2012 10:01 am ((PST)) s wrote: > Hi folks - I've dropped a folder in the photo section with some pics of an AMMCO 6" shaper.[snip] It's completely functional. The biggest issue I see with it is the sliding adjustment for the stroke is "stuck", it could use disassembly and cleaning. Right now it's pretty much set at max stroke. [snip] < It's not stuck. There's a trick. Loosen the 7/8" nut on the right side (it tightens the shaft on which the bull gear rides), then unscrew the stroke adjuster screw and move the slide in the arm. William Abernathy Berkeley, CA http://yourwritereditor.com ------- Bakelite Bullgear lube question [Metal_Shapers] Posted by: "jeffthom99" jeffx~xx123jeff.com Date: Sat Feb 4, 2012 8:08 am ((PST)) Hi all, Have I simply missed the discussion of lube for the bakelite bullgear in our Ammco-type shapers? Someone told me over last week-end to keep a pool of 10W-ish lube in the bottom of the column so the gear can stay wet. Huh? Sounds way wrong to me. So, I dug thru the manuals I have by Ammco and Delta. No mention of lube for the pinion/ bullgear at all. Shaft bearings, crank, slider, ways, etc., etc., yes. But not the big gear. Any wisdom here?? Thanks, Jeff Thompson ------- Re: Bakelite Bullgear lube question Posted by: "ammcoman2" geoffx~xxca.inter.net Date: Sat Feb 4, 2012 3:43 pm ((PST)) Regular grease has worked well for me - a touch-up about once a year. Geoff ------- Ammco belt guards and other parts. [Metal_Shapers] Posted by: "Pat Gamache" cpgamachex~xxtelus.net Date: Tue Oct 2, 2012 6:50 am ((PDT)) I was fortunate to have a complete shaper from a friend to copy all the missing parts. I have copied the door, table lock, ram guard, motor drive support and now I am building the belt guards. I am pleased with the results. I will post some photos as things progress. Regards Claude ------- Re: Ammco belt guards and other parts. Posted by: "viajoaquinx~xxaol.com" Date: Tue Oct 2, 2012 10:06 am ((PDT)) Claude, I will be interested to see what you come up with for the teardrop shaped motor belt guard; that is a project that I have been contemplating. BakoRoy ------- Re: Ammco belt guards and other parts. Posted by: "Claude & Pat Gamache" cpgamachex~xxtelus.net Date: Wed Oct 3, 2012 6:23 pm ((PDT)) Hi BacoRoy Building a belt guard may take less time than trying to find one. I went to the metal mart and purchased some 1/4 x 1/2 inch flat bar and proceeded to bend the parts needed to match the original component parts of the original belt guard. Most I bent cold but the small ring for the center required some heat and the use of an anvil and hammer. The rest of the parts I will make up as I go. I will assemble these parts by welding so that they match the original belt guard (with a bit of skill). If the skill is not there then it may not look like the original. I have taken some photos of the original and some of the parts I have fabricated so far. If you are interested you will find the photos in the album called Ammco belt guard. ------- Re: Ammco belt guards and other parts. Posted by: "viajoaquinx~xxaol.com" Date: Thu Oct 4, 2012 1:55 am ((PDT)) Nice job on the ring! I had the same idea of welding up flat stock but pictured using a washer for the ring. I also didn't plan on using anything as ambitious a 1/4" thick stock, more like 1/8" stock or possibly even laying out the entire guard on 10 ga. plate and then flame cutting it out and bending down the sides to meet a teardrop ring like you have. Since you have an original at your disposal, you could easily trace it flat and then carefully turn it on each side and trace the two sides, that way you would have the exact angle to make the sides bend down correctly. BakoRoy ------- AMMCO hinge pin lubrication [Metal_Shapers] Posted by: "dkirk_4" dkirk4x~xxgmail.com Date: Sat Oct 6, 2012 4:28 pm ((PDT)) Hi all, I started re-assembling the clapper and tool slide this morning and I got wondering what I should lube the clapper hinge pin with. I looked through the AMMCO, Delta-MIlwaukee, and the SB shaper manuals and I didn't see any mention on lubricating the clapper hinge pin. It seems to me that you'd want some oil or grease or something in there, but there isn't even an oil hole, and none of the manufacturers mention it. Does anyone know why this is? Dave ------- Re: AMMCO hinge pin lubrication Posted by: "ED MAISEY" holmes_ca_2000x~xxyahoo.com Date: Sat Oct 6, 2012 7:07 pm ((PDT)) Dave, I would think any grease or oil would be better than none; my Atlas 7B has an oil hole central between tapered pin. Edmund ------- Re: AMMCO hinge pin lubrication Posted by: "dkirk_4" dkirk4x~xxgmail.com Date: Sun Oct 7, 2012 10:22 am ((PDT)) I was actually thinking about doing that, but then I thought maybe they didn't put an oil hole there for a reason. It's kind of weird that some of the oil holes have Gits covers, and then some just have little 1/8" holes drilled in the casting down to the bearings. Do you think that was an oversight or maybe they wanted to sell more clapper blocks and tapered pins? ------- Re: AMMCO hinge pin lubrication Posted by: "ED MAISEY" holmes_ca_2000x~xxyahoo.com Date: Sun Oct 7, 2012 12:56 pm ((PDT)) Dirk, personally myself I wouldn't worry about the right oil; I would use any kind, when you think about how far that block swings out it should last many years, providing its lubricated; can you remove the clapper and drill a hole for oil, or maybe its heat treated. I always use a straight oil 10 Castrolite. Edmund ------- Re: AMMCO hinge pin lubrication Posted by: "Charles" xlch58x~xxswbell.net Date: Sun Oct 7, 2012 6:12 pm ((PDT)) It was a taper pin, so that as it wore you could tighten it up. Taper pins were cheap. Charles ------- Re: AMMCO hinge pin lubrication Posted by: "ED MAISEY" holmes_ca_2000x~xxyahoo.com Date: Mon Oct 8, 2012 12:05 pm ((PDT)) Dirk wrote: > I just realized I'd need a taper pin reamer to clean up the inside of the hole if I were to drill an oil hole through the top of the clapper block. I believe that is a #8 taper pin? I don't know where I got that from, can anyone verify this? < You have the pin, copy and machine the taper onto a piece of drill rod; grind a slot along the length; harden and deburr. Edmund ------- Ammco pinion gear size [Metal_Shapers] Posted by: "dkirk_4" dkirk4x~xxgmail.com Date: Sat Nov 17, 2012 7:23 pm ((PST)) Hey guys, I'm about to start re-assembly soon. Everything is cleaned up and painted and ready to go. However, the pinion gear is in pretty sad shape. It's all boogered up and I'd hate to wear the bull gear, although the bull gear is in much better shape than the pinion gear. I'd like see if there are any pinion gears for this commercially available. So far I've done some reading and some internet searching, and I've determined that the pinion gear is a 16 DP right hand helical gear, has a 1" pitch circle, with a 20 degree helix angle. Although the helix angle was gotten off of a few posts on some machining forums so it's actually second hand. I'd still need to know what the pressure angle is in order to find out if anyone has these in stock. Anybody here happen to know? I also searched here but couldn't find the pressure angle. I probably won't be able to find one, but I'd like to try before file the boogers off of the pinion and put it back in the Ammco. Other than that, I have the replacement bushings for the drive shaft and some needle bearings and I got some bronze bushings for the countershaft to try to keep the oil in the bearings, but I couldn't find a bushing for the bull gear shaft so I'm running it as is for now. It's really not badly worn but I was going to replace it while the shaper is apart. I'll post pic's as I make progress but I only have a few hours here and there to work on it so it may not actually get finished until Spring. ------- Re: Ammco pinion gear size Posted by: "GJR" gjrepeshx~xxyahoo.com Date: Sun Nov 18, 2012 9:06 am ((PST)) Hi, Check out message #19792 with the related photo reference. I have made this gear. Gary R. ------- Re: Ammco pinion gear size Posted by: "ammcoman2" geoffx~xxca.inter.net Date: Sun Nov 18, 2012 3:42 pm ((PST)) Re the Bull gear shaft bushing: I got one from Boston Gear through a local distributor. Had to do a little bit of scraping after pressing it into the hole and also had to cut some oil grooves (Dremel). Geoff ------- Re: Ammco pinion gear size Posted by: "dkirk_4" dkirk4x~xxgmail.com Date: Mon Nov 19, 2012 7:22 pm ((PST)) I couldn't find the Bull Gear shaft bushing with the same OD on Boston Gear's website. I just found one on ABS's website though. Oil grooves huh? Are you implying that my assumption that the ones I bought didn't come with oil grooves because they don't need them is wrong?! I never even considered the oil grooves. I was so happy when they got here I put them right in and didn't give oil grooves a second thought. I see a lot of electric motors with bronze bearings and no grooves. I guess they're running a bit faster than the drive shaft. Dammit >< Ah well, I needed something to do over the long weekend anyway. I did look at the pic's of the pinion gear setup. I saw the setup for the helix angle, but I missed the pressure angle. Should I assume that it's 14 1/2° ? Nice job on that by the way. ------- Re: Ammco pinion gear size Posted by: "GJR" gjrepeshx~xxyahoo.com Date: Mon Nov 19, 2012 10:19 pm ((PST)) The pressure angle is 14 1/2. Contact me if you want to buy a gear from me. ------- Oil Grooves [Metal_Shaper] Posted by: "dkirk_4" dkirk4x~xxgmail.com Date: Fri Nov 23, 2012 8:35 am ((PST)) Good Morning and Happy belated Thanksgiving! We're having Thanksgiving on Sunday due to work schedules so I got a day in the shop yesterday. I dismantled everything I had together so far on the Ammco, and got about setting up to cut some oil grooves. I have a nice set of burrs for the Dremel that I got from a jeweler but it turns out they don't fit in the collet that came with it so that was the first task. I just made one out of some hard aluminum I had here, and after that I tried to figure out how to mount it on my lathe toolpost. I just want to hold it still and be able to have a little more control over it than try to cut the grooves in the bearings freehand. Then I got to thinking (dangerous, I know). The drive shaft bushings have an X groove at the top and bottom of the bearing connected at each end, the bull gear shaft bearing only has an X groove at the top of the bearing, but there are no grooves at all on the ram ways. Does anyone know why that is? Just a decision they made due to selling price? Just curious really. One other question: Is anyone using grease in the bearings instead of oil? Not trying to complicate matters, I did some reading on some other forums and it seems that these kinds of questions always get very different responses from many people. I'm just curious what you would use as the criteria for deciding whether to use grease or oil. ------- Re: Oil Grooves Posted by: "Jordan" jwprincicx~xxbigpond.com Date: Sat Nov 24, 2012 3:02 pm ((PST)) On my simple Douglas shaper, which has ball bearings, there's a sticker that specifically says not to use oil for them - only grease. It might depend on the design, and the likelihood of running dry if oiling is forgotten? Jordan ------- Re: Oil Grooves Posted by: "John Bates" reproturnx~xxbigpond.com Date: Sat Nov 24, 2012 5:06 pm ((PST)) Spindle speed is a major factor in deciding on grease vs oil. Bearing specs cite a limiting speed for grease due to heat build up. Goes much higher with oil. I suspect that shapers running ball or taper bearings are a prime candidate for grease lubrication due to low spindle speed. Oh yes and I have a Douglas too! Lovely machine. Cheers John B Sydney Australia ------- Re: need table feed ratchet/Ammco [Metal_Shapers] Posted by: "Gecko_Cycles" geckocyclesx~xxhotmail.com Date: Mon Dec 3, 2012 7:07 am ((PST)) Richard Sheckler wrote: >> Gentlemen, >> Recent purchase Ammco 7" Shaper is missing the knurled knob and >> attached ratchet parts on the feed mechanism. Might anyone know of >> a source for this part? Thanks, Richard Richard Sheckler wrote: > Hi Jim, Not to worry about a missing part. The challenge is worth it, > or as Holmes would say, "The game is afoot!" The crotch tool arrived > and is mighty nice! All the best! Richard I just finished making one. The photo is in the photos section under Gecko Cycles Delta 7". I had to massage the screw and spring a bit more after this photo as well as drill a new hole in the pin 90 degs from the one in the photo. I learned to not make the knob dogs fit too tight in the grooves. A little play side to side is OK. Plus I ended up shortening the dogs some to make it easier to pull up and twist. You need to ramp the pin on the return side of the stroke. ------- Re: Ammco pinion gear arrived! [Metal_Shapers] Posted by: "dkirk_4" dkirk4x~xxgmail.com Date: Wed Dec 12, 2012 4:58 pm ((PST)) So I decided to order a new pinion gear from Gary and it arrived yesterday. Fits like a glove! I'd highly recommend anyone in need of a pinion gear for their Ammco contact him for a replacement. I should have posted a picture, but I was eager to see how it would fit and I put it together already. I'll have to post one of the gear in place. I'm starting to put everything back together now. I measured the ways with some .500 pins, a planer gage and a 3" micrometer and I came up with about .0015 out of parallel, with the ways wider at the front. But, I don't have access to a milling machine, so I'm just going to reassemble at this point and make some test cuts. I'll post some results when I'm done. Which, at this rate, may not be until spring. "-) Thanks for the nice job on the gear Gary! To contact Gary R. or "GJR" email gjrepeshx~xxyahoo.com ------- NOTE TO FILE: Glen commissioned a small production run of the AMMCO metal shaper's bull gear in 2006 and did another larger batch in 2013. ------- Ammco gears [Metal_Shapers] Posted by: "glenlinscheid" partsproductionx~xxcenturylink.net Date: Tue Jun 11, 2013 10:24 am ((PDT)) I got the Ammco [bull] gears back, they look great! There are two stop pins on the shiny face of Ammco gears, the old sample I had just had one because the repair a former owner made was right there where the second one goes. The original pins are mild steel with a knurl to hold location, and they are to stop the slide from moving outside of max parameters during setting the ram travel. I'm substituting hardened roll pins, and they drive in like a nail because there is slight interference. The pins I'm supplying protrude about 1/8" to 1/16" farther than the originals, I didn't measure, but I'm sure it is inconsequential considering what they do. My predicament is whether I should press both pins in place or leave one or both out for the purchaser to do. You may want to use the old pins, and there's no reason why you couldn't. Please let me know. Anyway, I'm taking orders. Thanks, Glen ------- Re: Ammco gears Posted by: "Glen Linscheid" partsproductionx~xxcenturylink.net Date: Tue Jun 11, 2013 2:32 pm ((PDT)) > You can leave my pins out, but please send them. > Did you get my check? Yes we did. I may have made a mistake saying the price though as I don't know what the gear people are charging, I should know this afternoon. We'll send yours anyway. That's why I don't like folks sending money up front. But your gear should go out tomorrow in the mail via flat rate box. Thanks, Glen ------- Re: Ammco gears Posted by: "Glen Linscheid" partsproductionx~xxcenturylink.net Date: Tue Jun 11, 2013 5:50 pm ((PDT)) It looks like $128.00 is workable, when people in the shaper group are satisfied I'll sell the rest on ebay for a bit more. It came out better than the last time in 2006 possibly because the quantity was 2 1/2 times as many, and the CNC program for the threaded inserts was already written and proven. Shipping of $5.77 comes out of the $128 as well. It feels good to help in keeping those beautiful old machines alive. Glen ------- 7" AMMCO table not advancing [Metal_Shapers] Posted by: steveblancardx~xxyahoo.com steveblancard Date: Tue Jun 30, 2015 12:28 pm ((PDT)) I'm having a small issue with my AMMCO. The horizontal table feed does not work reliably. I've taken the mechanism apart and everything looks good. I posted close up photos in "Steve B's 7" AMMCO Shaper" album Metal Shapers https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Metal_Shapers/photos/albums/53891636 The problem is that the handle seems to turn too easily when the lever is trying to ratchet back, which causes the handle to just move back and forth but have no progress. It works fine if I put a finger on the handle to add resistance. The ratchet then works and the table advances. The threaded shaft doesn't seem to extend out the left side as far as it should either. I can barely get the 2nd nut on. If you look at the photo of the left side, there is a step on the shaft that makes it look like it should go another 1/2" to the left. I tried tightening the nuts on the end of the threaded shaft to add tension. But then it seems to bind the advance lever. The ratchet gear and pawl look to be in good shape. I've tightened the horizontal gibs to add a little resistance, it helps a little, but it still doesn't work reliably. This problem is kind of hard to explain, but I hope you can follow what I'm trying to say. What do you all think? Maybe I'm missing some simple adjustment? Thanks Steve ------- Re: 7" AMMCO table not advancing Posted by: "Dennis Turk" dennis.turk2x~xxfrontier.com dturkcars Date: Tue Jun 30, 2015 10:46 pm ((PDT)) Maybe insufficient drag or rotational resistance on the cross feed lead screw. This plagues Atlas 7 shapers also. ------- Re: 7" AMMCO table not advancing Posted by: richardpwilson61x~xxyahoo.co.uk richardpwilson61 Date: Tue Jun 30, 2015 10:47 pm ((PDT)) The secret with virtually all these self feed set ups is to get some friction on the feedscrew, stop it moving back. It was normally done by putting a thin fibre washer or a belville washer (anything with a bit of 'give' in it) under the nuts and tightening things up just enough. Richard ------- Re: 7" AMMCO table not advancing Posted by: "Grant Erwin" grantx~xxnwnative.us blue_metal_baby Date: Tue Jun 30, 2015 10:47 pm ((PDT)) How loose is it? It might be as simple as needing a little resistance, like when ratcheting a socket wrench. ------- Re: 7" AMMCO table not advancing Posted by: "Arn Jones" ltousigx~xxgmail.com ltousig Date: Tue Jun 30, 2015 10:47 pm ((PDT)) Add a wave washer or a Belville spring. ------- Re: 7" AMMCO table not advancing Posted by: "Tom Kent" punkforhirex~xxyahoo.com punkforhire Date: Tue Jun 30, 2015 10:49 pm ((PDT)) Hi Steve, a frustrating problem. Have you inspected the horizontal screw's nut? Make sure it is not worn, make sure it is locked tight or bolted tightly to the table? Had this problem on my Alba and it turned out to be the acme nut loosened from the table after several frustrating hours. Tom ------- Re: 7" AMMCO table not advancing Posted by: jmartin957x~xxaol.com jmartin957 Date: Tue Jun 30, 2015 11:16 pm ((PDT)) As others have already said, Tightening the table gibs won't do a thing. It's the reversing of the screw that is causing your failure to feed. Tighten the nuts at the end of the screw -- that's what they're there for. The screw needs to bind just enough to make the pawl skip over the teeth on the ratchet wheel. John ------- Re: 7" AMMCO table not advancing Posted by: stuartchesherx~xxbtinternet.com fffffreezing Date: Wed Jul 1, 2015 5:52 am ((PDT)) When I first acquired my Alba 1a I had this happen to me. I found out that the lead screw is relieved at either end allowing the table drive nut to "drop off" the lead screw thread and knock the feed out to prevent damage to the machine. The normal advice is to push the table while winding the screw to get the nut back in mesh even if it means loosening the gibs to do so. However in my case this did not work (although it will now!) I removed the table, drive nut and screw and found that over the years the start of the thread in the drive nut had become damaged through many "drop of's". The solution? I used the lead screw as a giant tap along with some coarse grinding paste. With very little effort I had the screw running freely through the nut. With the machine reassembled the problem had gone away and I have not been bothered with it since. Stuart ------- Re: 7" AMMCO table not advancing Posted by: steveblancardx~xxyahoo.com steveblancard Date: Wed Jul 1, 2015 10:25 pm ((PDT)) Thanks for all your suggestions guys. I figured out the problem. I just bought this machine and it turns out that the bushings on the end of the threaded crossfeed rod were not assembled properly. I finally found a good diagram that should the proper installation. Two bushings were on the outside of the left side of the crossfeed casting. They needed to be installed one on either side of the casting so as to put resistance to the rotating shaft. It now works beautifully. Thanks for your thoughts. ------- Newly restored Ammco 6" shaper [Metal_Shapers] Posted by: matnrach2x~xxyahoo.com matnrach2 Date: Fri Jan 1, 2016 4:28 am ((PST)) Hi. Just finished restoring an AMMCO 6" shaper serial no SH-6-34 I guess it is an early model with a flat belt drive but more interestingly it has a feed mechanism I have not seen before. I wonder if it is homemade? If so it is very well made. I would be interested if anybody has any more info. Pictures are in an album called 'Ammco 6" ------- Re: Newly restored Ammco 6" shaper Posted by: "LHC_52" lhc_52x~xxyahoo.com lhc_52 Date: Fri Jan 1, 2016 7:17 am ((PST)) Interesting. I just bought a 7" and plan to restore it at some point. I have an acquaintance that has a 6" and it's got the same ratchet mechanism as mine so this looks like it could be a very well made after market item. What color paint did you use ? Cheers Lewis ------- Re: Newly restored Ammco 6" shaper Posted by: matnrach2x~xxyahoo.com matnrach2 Date: Fri Jan 1, 2016 8:05 am ((PST)) Lewis Thanks for the info. I used Myford Grey enamel from Paragon paints in UK. Regards Stuart ------- ------------------------------------------------------------------ This is just one of some 80 files about machining and metalworking and useful workshop subjects that can be read at: http://www.janellestudio.com/metal/index.html ------------------------------------------------------------------