The use, repair, and maintenance of AMMCO 6 or 7 inch metal shapers and the Delta 7 inch metal shaper (aka Delta-Milwaukee or Delta-Rockwell) are discussed here. The metal shapers produced under the Delta brand share the later AMMCO features and identical, or very similar, parts. If you got to this file directly from my HOME PAGE, return there by using your browser's back button. BUT if you came to this file as the result of a web search engine, see more than 70 additional files on my home page Machining and Metalworking at Home http://www.janellestudio.com/metal/ SAFETY WARNING BEWARE: DO NOT ASSUME that any subject matter or procedure or process is safe or correct or appropriate just because it was mentioned in a news/user group or was included in these files or on this site or on any other web site or was published in a magazine or book or video. Working with metals and machinery and chemicals and electrical equipment is inherently dangerous. Wear safety devices and clothing as appropriate. Remove watches, rings, and jewellery -- and secure or remove loose clothing -- before operating any machine. Read, understand and follow the latest operating procedures and safety instructions provided by the manufacturer of your machine or tool or product. If you do not have those most recent official instructions, acquire a copy through the manufacturer before operating or using their product. Where the company no longer exists, use the appropriate news or user group to locate an official copy. Be careful -- original instructions may not meet current safety standards. Updated safety information and operating instructions may also be available through a local club, a local professional in the trade, a local business, or an appropriate government agency. In every case, use your common sense before beginning or taking the next step; and do not proceed if you have any questions or doubts about any procedure, or the safety of any procedure. Follow all laws and codes, and employ certified or licenced professionals as required by those laws or codes. Hazardous tasks beyond your competence or expertise should also be contracted to professionals. Let's be really careful out there. (c) Copyright 2003 - 2008 Machining and Metalworking at Home The form of the collected work in this text file (including editing, additions, and notes) is copyrighted and this file is not to be reproduced by any means, including electronic, without written permission except for strictly personal use. ========================================================================== A VERY BRIEF HISTORY OF AMMCO AND DELTA METAL SHAPERS (before getting on to the practical, helpful metal shaper stuff you want) Frederick G. Wacker (Sr.) founded Ammco Tools, Inc. in 1922. Fortunately the acronym AMMCO is pronounceable and we do not often have to say/write Automotive Maintenance Machinery Co. The metal shapers badged AMMCO in this file were all produced by AMMCO, for AMMCO. Herbert Tautz founded what we call Delta in 1919. He started in a one-car garage in Milwaukee and originally called it The Delta Specialty Company. In 1945, Rockwell bought Delta and called it The Delta Power Tool Division of Rockwell Manufacturing Company. In 1948 Delta bought the AMMCO metal shaper design (but not the AMMCO company) to produce it under their own various names of Delta Milwaukee and then Rockwell Delta. When Pentair bought the Delta division from Rockwell in 1981, they wisely kept the name as Delta Machinery. NOTE TO FILE RE: AMMCO METAL SHAPER SERIAL NUMBERS AND DATES For the narrow purpose of recording markings or serial numbers, only AMMCO ones have been documented in this first section. No one reading this note will be amazed to learn that a new owner of any type of machine nearly always asks the group what year his baby was born. Within this file are various discussions about serial numbers, date codes (if any really exist?), and a survey that -- as of the end part of 2003 -- has had very few AMMCO metal shaper owners contributing their info. To make it easier for any AMMCO readers to find their latest serial number info, the updated survey results will be kept here at the start of this file, including new shapers' as they are added (if the owners provide enough accurate details to help here). Complete info per the survey questions in my message of 30 April 2003 are really appreciated to make this top-of-file listing more useful to others. The separate file "AMMCO Metal Shaper Disassembly" (applies to Delta also) is dedicated to that one subject, although there is some disassembly info buried HERE in messages concerned primarily with other topics. Please read both files. Data/messages/conversations in the rest of this file are pretty well in chronological order with the newest discussions at the end. THE REST OF THIS FILE HAS A LOT OF GOOD INFO ON: REPAIR, PARTS, OPERATION, ETC. AND NUMEROUS HELP CONVERSATIONS TO KEEP YOUR AMMCO (or Delta) GOING. AMMCO METAL SHAPER AND DELTA METAL SHAPER FREE ON-LINE MANUALS. Scott Logan has posted several metal shaper manuals in high resolution PDF files on his site at http://lathe.com/catalogs See his message here 9 Feb 2005 for file details. ========================================================================== SURVEY CONSOLIDATED AMMCO METAL SHAPER SERIAL NUMBERS LIST STARTS HERE (Updated regularly as more are reported) PLATE SAYS AMMCO 6" SHAPER (7 examples) David S's Serial Number: SH220 Elevation Crank: Below Bench Pulley System: 3 Speed flat belt drive Original Color: not reported Other Remarks: Missing elevation crank and ratchet mechanism. [NOTE TO FILE: The above MAY be the lowest serial number found so far, UNLESS the serial numbering system was changed. The next two shapers are unique in having the serial number start with a 6 and then a space, which might suggest that SH6 really stood for SHaper6inch and space and then the actual production number. In that case SH6 128 and SH6 167 were earlier than SH220 -- if the 6 was really a model designation and it was dropped after a short while.] Bill B'S Serial Number: SH6 128 (space in number is correct not typo) Elevation Crank: Below Bench Pulley System: 3 Speed flat belt drive Original Color: dark grey, one coat wo/primer; very little casting filling Other Remarks: Ratchet feed is by push-pull cable, mounted on factory cabinet with v-belt guard but missing flat belt guard and the bull gear door. Bull gear is phenolic and undamaged. Jim B'S Serial Number: SH6 167 (space in number is correct not typo) Elevation Crank: Below Bench Pulley System: 3 Speed flat belt drive Original Color: dark grey Other Remarks: fabricated motor/pulley assembly mounted behind shaper E-bay example included because it had date documentation Serial Number: SH41452 Elevation Crank: Below Bench Pulley System: 3 Speed Flat Belt Original Color: Appears to have been grey; now faded blue wearing off Other Remarks: Wooden bench. The original packing list is dated 5/23/41. John's Serial Number: SH41522 Elevation Crank: Below Bench Pulley System: 3 Speed Flat Belt Original Color: Dark Green (if repaint, well done) Other Remarks: Appears to be over a grey undercoat, but grey could have actually been the original color. No door, no guards, no original vice, non-standard feed. Geoff K'S Serial Number: SH1111019 Elevation Crank: Below Bench Pulley System: not reported Original Color: dark grey (almost charcoal) Other Remarks: The instruction sheet and parts list that I received from the previous owner has the following on the front page: "7" Precision Shaper ---- for serial numbers beginning with SH-1111500". The date at the bottom left of the front page is Dec 1941, and denotes the side crank model with 3 oilers on each side of the ram. (Mine has one on each side but I have now drilled the extra holes and will fit the extra oil covers - more oil is always better.) In the drawings the raising crank comes out on the side via a bevel gear. So mine might one of the last batch using the "under" crank. This may be of some help to those working out the date code system. Steve's Serial Number: SH1111031 Elevation Crank: Below Bench Pulley System: 3 Speed Flat Belt Original Color: At an earlier time the unit was Bright Red. Other Remarks: The red was well painted and in places only the factory is likely to have done it; since then was mostly overpainted a bright green, but not very well done. No sign of a primer color unless it was a dark grey similar to cast iron. Original vise and feed, no door, no guards. ------------------------------- PLATE SAYS AMMCO 7" SHAPER (20 examples) Herb W's Serial Number: SH164492 Elevation Crank: Right Side Pulley System: 4 Speed V Original Color: grey over red primer Other Remarks: table holes not threaded; door is present but, unfortunately, the decal is gone or painted over; 1/4 HP motor Rick's now owned by Jeff Serial Number: SH264610 Elevation Crank: Right Side Pulley System: 4 Speed V Original Color: Bright Green? Other Remarks: Gray paint on casting, covered by Bright Green (then covered by Pea Green repaint). Original vice, door, Westinghouse 1/6HP motor Andy's Serial Number: SH364780 Elevation Crank: Right Side Pulley System: Motor and countershaft missing Original Color: Other Remarks: There's also a dealers' badge on the center of the front base REYNOLDS MACHINERY COMPANY MACHINE TOOLS CLEVELAND OHIO Larry's Serial Number: SH443444 Elevation Crank: Right Side Pulley System: 4 Speed V Original Color: Dark gray and it has a red lead primer. Other Remarks: The shaper is in excellent condition, with very few scratches and no damage. The color closely matches Rust-Oleum's Smoke Gray. I received the machine on its original maple stand (as seen in brochures for the machine) with vice, access door, all belt guards and the original lamp. It is missing the lamp mounting bracket. It has three snap cap oil ports on each side of the ram frame. Table lift: By a large `U' shaped lifting bar mounted on the end of the cabinet and wheels at the opposite end. The bar was originally chromed. The machine also had a riveted metal label on the feed mechanism side near the base, as follows. THIS MACHINE CONFORMS TO THE ORDERS OF THE WAR PRODUCTION BOARD Chris' Serial Number: SH543490 Elevation Crank: right side Pulley System: 4 Speed V belt Original Color: faded light green -- probable original Other Remarks: Has War Production Board plate on it; no door Matt's Serial Number: SH554010 Elevation Crank: Right Side Pulley System: 4 Speed V Original Color: not reported Other Remarks: It has all of the guards, and what looks to be an original vise. It has the table support on the front of the table. The side cover on the main body is missing. Serial Number: SH743552 Elevation Crank: Right Side Pulley System: 4 Speed V Original Color: not reported Other Remarks: Original brochure dated Feb 15, 1942. Machine has plate "THIS MACHINE CONFORMS TO ORDERS OF THE WAR PRODUCTION BOARD" Karla's Serial Number: SH854192 Elevation Crank: not reported Pulley System: not reported Original Color: Green olive drab Other Remarks: Has War Production Board plate on it; overpainted a light blue. Billy H's Serial Number: SH895997 Elevation Crank: Right side Pulley System: 4 Speed V Original Color: Other Remarks: It was bought new in 46 or 47 in Portland IN and was used in a basket factory. I bought it from a basket factory in Jacksonville Tx that bought all of the IN plant. They already had a 16" shaper in their machine shop, so this was surplus. They have to make all replacement parts for the entire factory (65 employees) as this machinery has not been manufactured since 1938. Mike's "newtool4321" Serial Number: SH932979 Elevation Crank: Right side Pulley System: not reported Original Color: Gray Other Remarks: Has War Production Board plate Thanks to Jeff Mendoza for getting more information about the eBay sale of documentation from a 7" AMMCO c/with packing list Serial Number: SH943657 Other Remarks: Packing list shows above serial number and the date 9-25-44. Motor is 1/3 HP, 110v - 60 cycle, 1725 RPM AC. Jack's Serial Number: SH954271 Elevation Crank: not reported Pulley System: not reported Original Color: Green Other Remarks: It bears a War Production Board plaque, and the original paint is green (almost OD, actually). A stenciled marking underneath the (original) on/off switch says "June 1945", which pretty well establishes its provenance as a WWII machine. Cecil's Serial Number: SH965179 Elevation Crank: Right Side Pulley System: 4 Speed V Original Color: Medium Gray Other Remarks: Paint 100% original, red decal with original worklight, vise, index head, tool holder, wrenches, shields, and motor. Rick M's Serial Number: SH965192 Elevation Crank: Right Side Pulley System: 4 Speed V Original Color: Odd shade of Green Other Remarks: Factory wooden bench/cabinet Jeff's Serial Number: SH1065291 Elevation Crank: Right Side Pulley System: 4 Speed V Original Color: Royal Blue Other Remarks: Factory wooden bench/cabinet is same color Royal Blue; owner reports having seen the same bench design in an early Delta catalog. Rich K's Serial Number: SH1222401 Elevation Crank: Right Side Pulley System: 4 Speed V Original Color: Gray (Dark) Other Remarks: Has a tag on right side behind elevation crank: "This machine conforms to orders of the War Production Board" It allegedly came out of a Nike missile battery mobile machine shop trailer, which would date it to the 50s I think. I don't know when the War Production Board ceased tagging machines. The original pulley died of cancer (cracked shortly after I got it, so I turned a new one from solid 6061). It has the rotary index table, vise, big and small keyway cutter bars, original light (broken hood), and motor (on its last legs). The door was missing, so I turned a new one from 6061 plate. Roger H's Serial Number: SH1222413 Elevation Crank: Right Side Pulley System: 4 Speed V Original Color: not reported Other Remarks: I think it was repainted at the rebuild. Has original vice, no door, holes tapped in table, no guards, motor and jack shaft missing Additional tag Rebuilt by Ohio Rebuilding Co Toledo, Ohio 105 6-51 Rich H's Serial Number: SH1222446 Elevation Crank: Right Side Pulley System: 4 Speed V Original Color: Dark Gray Other Remarks: Tony L's Serial Number: SH1233156 Elevation Crank: Right Side Pulley System: 4 Speed V Original Color: Gray (red primer on the inside of the door) Other Remarks: Directly above the serial no. plaque is another that reads "Northwestern University Dept. of Physics NSL277 Evanston Ill." The other side has a plaque which reads "This Machine Conforms To Orders Of The War Production Board". All the guards are original and in one piece. Val's Serial Number: SH1275815 Elevation Crank: not reported Pulley System: 4 Speed V Original Color: not reported Other Remarks: It belonged to the South-African weather service. Apart from the vice, I also got the original rotary table and the factory "dividing head". It has plates with 30, 36, 32, 20, 40, 22, 27, 28, and 48 holes as well as a large plate with 135 holes. Most of the plates seem to be shop made. It also came with spanners and a tool holder for internal work that seems to be factory made. AMMCO SURVEY RESULTS' CONSOLIDATED LIST ENDS HERE. ========================================================================= AND NOW ON TO THE OTHER MESSAGES ABOUT OUR AMMCO OR DELTA SHAPERS. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Art Volz" Date: Mon Nov 26, 2001 4:15 pm Subject: Re: AMMCO 7" Manual?? Ross-- Unfortunately, I don't have a "supply" of AMMCO shaper manuals. Last spring I "won", on Ebay, a somewhat pricey bound reprint of the 16- page manual for the Rockwell-Delta No. 27-100 7-inch metal shaper, which IS the AMMCO shaper, (PM-1737 revised 12-20-55). At the time, I made several comb-bound reprints of it which were rapidly "gone". I can do a one-time reprint as a service for those who still need a copy, but I don't want to get into a permanent business of doing this. The copies that I am willing to make will cost 10 bucks each, will be Ibico comb bound with a clear cover and will be mailed by Priority Mail w/Delivery Confirmation. When you add it all up to include the cost of materiels, time, transportation, aggravation, and "quality" mailing, I doubt that I'm even breaking even. Those who want such a copy, email me first to get my snail mail address, and then send me a self-addressed USPS Priority Mail label (available from your nearest friendly post office) and a saw-buck or postal money order (no checks and no stamps) and I'll zip you a copy AND email you your Delivery Confirmation number--make sure your snail mail to me has your Email address included. Art ------- From: Pete Somebody Date: Thu Mar 14, 2002 4:04 pm Subject: Re: [Metal_Shapers] Auto feed on my AAMCO not working... On Thu, Mar 14, 2002 at 09:18:40AM -0600, Mike Boucher wrote: > I've got an AAMCO 7" shaper, and its started to give me some > difficulty, and I can't figure it out... > The ratchet auto feed that moves the carriage (is that even the > right word here) seems to have stopped working. All it does is > click in both directions no matter which direction it should be going. I don't know about the AMMCO, but when that happened on my Logan 8", it was just that the ratchet pawl was gunked up. I pulled it apart, cleaned it, rebuilt, no problems since. Oh actually there was one other thing. At one point the bearings holding the horiz. feed screw were too loose. The screw turned so freely that even when the feed pawl was doing the right thing, the screw would just turn back and forth, back and forth. I could tell the ratchet wasn't activating because there was no clicking. A bearing adjustment fixed things, leaving the feed screw motion free but with just enough resistance so that the feed ratchet woud click over the right way. HTH. Pete Somebody http://artfulbodger.net/ ------- From: Dave Kochan Date: Mon Feb 25, 2002 9:32 pm Subject: Re: [Metal_Shapers] Length of Stroke Problem On Sun, 24 Feb 2002, Gronicle wrote: >> I have had my AMMCO 7" shaper for close to a year now and never changed the length of stroke on the ram to date. It was going about 2.5" all the time and that worked for the couple of bits and pieces I have used it on. Last night I started to set up to face off or level a bigger chunk and got an unpleasant surprise. I went inside the case to loosen the hex bolt and slide the adjuster up to get more stroke and durn if the hummer wasn't hung up! It won't go up any more than the 2.5" it was already set on and when I rotate things by hand and try and move the adjuster on the two vertical "rails" I can only get it to go down to less than 0". I used the gentle pry bar bar method and shot everything with Kroil, and tried loosening the two screws that hold the dovetailed adjusting plate to the bull gear, but no luck. Send me some suggestions, guys, before I try and tear everything down to parade rest and really get in trouble. Regards, Bubba K. From the Coastal Empire of Georgia << Mine had the opposite problem. The stroke length could not be adjusted to less than about 5.5". It turns out that the slide was BENT in the shaft region, and would obviously not slide into the dovetail in that configuration. So, I made a new one out of cast iron (to avoid steel-on-steel) with a shaft of hardened drill rod shrunk-fit into it. I used case-hardened 12L14 for the raised boss around the shaft. While I was at it, I made a new bronze bearing block (the old one was worn) and a proper anti-rotation washer and screw. (The old ones were a bodged-up collection of hardware store bits. I found the old anti- rotation washer in the bottom of the shaper, with the pin broken off.) Dave ------- From: "Metalcraft1" Date: Mon Feb 25, 2002 12:29 pm Subject: Re: [Metal_Shapers] Length of Stroke Problem I had the same problem with my Ammco Shaper when I first got it. Did you loosen the hex nut on the other side and then the small one on the brass adjuster. I had to use a wooden dowel rod to pry mine up but once it was busted loose it moves fine now. Pat Dillon ------- From: Gronicle Date: Wed Feb 27, 2002 12:39 am Subject: More on Stroke Adjustment I thank the guys who responded to my request for advise on what to do to try and adjust my AMMCO 7" shaper's stoke. I may be showing my hinnie, but am having a little bit of trouble conforming some of the info to my shaper. The only 7/8ths nut I can find on mine to slack off on is the one outside the case of the shaper on the end of the axile (apparently) for the bull gear. This nut seems to be there to adjust the feed rate rod as described in Jack's email. I backed it off and still couldn't get the dovetailed piece mounted on the bull gear, behind the adjusting block to move. Can't find any marks that indicate a particular position for adjusting the setting. I just tried having the dovetailed piece lined up vertically behind the bronze adjusting block. Is there supposed to be a nut behind the bronze adjusting block? If so I can't see mine because of parts in the way and can't imagine how to get a wrench on it. Please kick me and clairify if I am miss-construeing the advice you have given. Regards, Bubba K. ------- From: "moxiedad2001" Date: Mon Feb 25, 2002 1:25 pm Subject: Re: Length of Stroke Problem Don't know about AMMCO, but I had a similar problem on my South Bend. The problem on mine was burs inside the slotted arm, and to fix it I had to pull the arm out by first removing the shaft on which it rotates at the bottom of the housing (there is a very awkward-to- get-at set screw holding the arm to the shaft, but once it is removed the shaft will easily slide out). The burs were caused by a poor re- assembly by some previous owner. I have had all of this stuff off and on several times; it is really not that big of a job. The other thing you might try is to rap the hex wrench with the palm of your hand. Sometimes I find that merely loosening the hex bolt does not really loosen the assembly. Kim Steiner ------- Date: Sat, 02 Nov 2002 08:20:04 -0000 From: "Art Volz" Subject: Ominous Words...In An Old AMMCO Sales Brochure. Just had the opportunity to review an old 8-page sales brochure describing the "virtues" of the AMMCO 7-inch (7-3/4 inches maximum achievable) shaper. As the brochure states-- QUOTE: "The Bull Gear is of laminated Bakelite, and the Main Drive Pinion of High Carbon Steel. The teeth of both are spiral cut for extremely quiet running and a smooth operating machine. The Main Gear is easily replaceable in case of wear, and is inexpensive if replacement is required after years of service." (Capitalization is as is in the quoted brochure.) Reading between the lines, I get the distinct feeling that pit stops with tire changes were envisioned at the onset as a standard, recurring, procedure. And when I look at the AMMCO bull gear with its stark simplicity it even looks like a tire with its four mounting bolts' holes...just like a tire needing some lug nuts before taking a spin down a country road. Awhile back there was a discussion here about the durability of phenolic resin laminate bull gears vis-a-vis those made conventionally of "forever wear" cast iron. I think the main reason that AMMCO made these gears of phenolics wasn't because they were long lasting and as durable, in the long haul, as CI gears, but that they were "guieter" in operation and cheaper to make. While the spiral cut also aided in providing smoother ramming than straight toothed gears could, they also put more teeth area in contact to reduce forces over unit areas of the Bakelite teeth. And when they did wear--faster than "forever wear" CI teeth as are in my Lewis- 10...well...they were inexpensive...and replaceable. Ominous words? Perhaps...only time will tell for sure...and toothless grins. A question: How many of you groupies...out there in the ether...have AMMCOs with damaged, missing, or repaired teeth on their bull gears; how many of you have Alfred E. Newman "What, me worry?" teeth? If I had an AMMCO, which is a very capable 7-incher, I would be looking for alternate gearing solutions now, (for when I needed to apply them), such as straight toothed steel gears. (Beryllium - bronze would be prettier, but what if the OSHA and EPA polizei found out?) The AMMCO bull gear looks relatively easy to make from plate stock with the teeth indexed on a dividing head while being cut on a vertical mill. Anyone know the outside diameter of both the pinion and bull gear, the number of teeth on each, their approximate diametral pitch, and the center-to-center distance of their shafts? Would be good info to keep on hand here in "files". Art (Houston) -------- Date: Sat, 2 Nov 2002 08:04:59 -0600 From: "Mario L Vitale" Subject: Re: Ominous Words...In An Old AMMCO Sales Brochure. Art, I've never been a big fan of any non-metallic gears, but I have to say that phenolic gears, if designed for the application, can be pretty durable. The bull gear for the AMMCO sounds like an oversized timing gear from a '53 Chevvy. Even with abuse, they would last at least 50 or 60 K miles!?!? (I'll tell you about the abuse offline sometime!) Mario ------- Date: Sat, 02 Nov 2002 20:32:33 -0000 From: "Art Volz" Subject: Re: Ominous Words...In An Old AMMCO Sales Brochure. Mario-- That '53 "shove it or it lay" (as my dad humourously referred to all Chevies although that was the steed he normally bought and rode) was a pretty car...chromed all over in the GM traditional "sun god" manner. (What was that Industrial Designer King's name?) But, on the '53's GM tried a new and thinner (= cheaper) chrome deposition method especially on the bulbrous bumpers that would have made Jayne Mansfield appear under-blessed if both displayed their bounty side-by- side. Our neighbor across the street had one...with its bumpers surrendering to the continual saline assaults caused by South Bend's "no ice on the streets in February" policy. The owner, a Mr. Stan White, was a hard working U.S. Postal employee in the days before workers were urged to show their diversity, and the political correctness of being yourself, by going "postal". Another counselor drove one--a sexy salmon pink and gray one--to Camp Foley, Pine River, MN, in '63; he rode a Greyhound dawg home since he mistakenly had lent his Chevy one nite to a 3rd counselor who promptly wrapped it around a mailbox while out "fox-in'". And such a gorgeous coupe in salmon 'n grey! Those were the days...for chazing summer help at the summer resorts on Whitefish Lake: I used to sign out a canoe on moon filled nites and paddle across the bay sniffin' for possible quarry: "...your canoe, or mine?" Ah...those WERE the days! I used to know whenever the "phenolic sales rep" had visited my dad's design department at Bendix Aviation: he'd bring me home another stamped animal--I had an elephant, a whale...didn't have any monkies to monkey around with that I recall...and a couple of others that I no longer remember what they were. The stampings--maybe from about 1/16 phenolic-linen stock--showed NO chipping at the sheared edge-- maybe they were fine blanked...or, maybe they had sorted out the chipped ones. I can imagine a Sambo stacked platter of 1/16 blanked bull gear toothed disks, offset at the edge just a bit between each stamped layer to form a "spiral" tooth, and affixed with epoxy to form a "pre-form" AMMCO bull wheel ready for final finishing of the teeth. Looking again at the simplicity of the AMMCO bull gear, and if I had a "what, me worry?" grinner, I would be surely tempted to replace it with a similar sized roller-chain sprocket a la Porter- Cable/Logan/Brodhead-Garrett. It would be, to me, with my ingrained WWII era design training of "just stamp it!", so much simpler than trying to repair a phenolic one...or to make one out of "wear forever" CI. Art (Day dreaming on a lazy fall afternooner...in Houston, Capital of the Republic of Texas: "No Virginia, Chappelle Hille is NOT the capital...even though it does have a Dumb Bell ice cream brewery down in the hollow...and a roadkill (thank-you-290) ded meat sausage stuffery atop. :-) ) ------- Date: Sun, 3 Nov 2002 06:23:30 EST From: toolroomtrusteex~xxaol.com Subject: Ammoco shaper phenolic bull gears I suppose the question is where is the secret stash of them? I also have this vision of some sort of indexing rig where the blank is not parallel to the front of the shaper but rotated enough to give a sorta helical effect. I know it would nag me not to have a spare. When I got my ENCO 9x20 lathe 13 YA, my first additional purchases were spare belts and another 80T plastic gear since that was made to be damaged first. I have needed neither and I think that is becasue I have the spares on hand. At the time I had the lathe in a shop under my control on the ship I worked. A broken belt or gear could have taken 2 months to replace back then. Larry Murray ------- Date: Mon, 04 Nov 2002 21:11:40 -0000 From: "Art Volz" Subject: Re: Ammoco shaper phenolic bull gears In Metal_Shapers, toolroomtrustee... wrote: > I suppose the question is where is the secret stash of them? Larry--That's an interesting question: where is the stash? I wonder how Delta would reply if emailed that query: are blank stares possible over the internet? > I also have this vision of some sort of indexing rig where the > blank is not parallel to the front of the shaper but rotated > enough to give a sorta helical effect. That's basically the way such gears were cut on a milling machine, with the universal differential indexing head coupled to the x-axis of the mill's table via appropriate gearing. Last week I looked at a similar geared setup for a shaper in one of Joe W's books ( http://www.lindsaybks.com : No. 4724 - Franklin D. Jones - "Modern Toolmaking Methods" ); it had an illustrated setup that used a straight edged shaper tool (easy to precisly grind the tool to the shape of a specific size gear's single tooth as in its rack shape). The "rack toothed" tool was being used in conjunction with an indexing/dividing head geared to the traversing table to generate a correct tool shape to be used itself to cut the teeth, later, on a circular gear cutter. I'm sure, with sufficient noggin' scratching, that a similar process could be developed for cutting "spiral" gears on a shaper too. Somewhere, and I didn't purloin the PIC when I saw it on the net, is an illustration from a Russian text that depicted the cutting of gears on a shaper using some form of table movement tied into an indexing head; I immediately "steal" all such PICs now. > I know it would nag me not to have a spare. That drives me nutz too. I always am worrying, espeicially with old and long out of production machinery, just what the heck I'm going to do when something on the beasties decides to die. That's why most of my machinery was designed and built Spartan style without the fancy, and not needed, bells and whistles. > When I got my ENCO 9x20 lathe 13 YA, my first additional > purchases were spare belts and another 80T plastic gear > since that was made to be damaged first. I have needed neither > and I think that is becasue i have the spares on hand. At the time > I had the lathe in a shop under my control on the ship I worked. A > broken belt or gear could have taken 2 months to replace back then. One bell and whistle feature that I wish I had on my Logan 10 x 24 are safety spring-loaded release ball clutches on my cross slide and axial feed screws; the AMMCO-7 shaper has a simpler approach that limits its traversing table from "banging" at both left and right extremes by just relieving the thread screws at those locations--no thread to push = no banging. Every Army unit has a PLL of prescribed spare parts always on hand. Machines ain't dumb. They understand a few basic things such as "why break...they've got the parts?"... and big ball pein hammers and large screwdrivers placed within the constant view of each machine-- the machines KNOW that if they misbehave, at least in my shop they do, that extreme violence will be immediately applied to their beings...and possibly to their continued existence. They also know that I have parts on hand. If they're real bad I paint them. Gawd how machines hate to be painted...to them it's a punishment more cruel, more extreme, and more unusual, than the Chinese "1000 Cuts". The only thing worse than painting, to any self-respecing machine tool, is to be powder-coated. :-) Art (Houston) ------- Date: Mon, 04 Nov 2002 16:20:38 -0600 From: jrw Subject: Re: Re: Ammoco shaper phenolic bull gears Art: There is a Gleason Gear Generator that works with a reciprocating motion of two cutters to generate the teeth. I saw one working at a local shop (East side of town). A fancy shaper. I found a photo of a large shaper, The Ohio Dreadnaught, that is listed as probably one of the larger shapers built and in service in a railroad shop and a 36 inch stroke. Joe ------- Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 23:04:04 -0000 From: "too_many_tools " Subject: AAMCO Shaper Design Questions Hi, My shaper (#SH521328) has a table that has slots and holes drilled in the table (all original from the factory as far as I can tell). A question for those AAMCO owners... Concerning the table on the AAMCO shaper, (1) why are the slots on the table not T-slots and (2) why are the holes in the table not threaded? Is there any reason why one could not thread these holes? What improvements did the AAMCO shaper under go during its developement? I have seen several comments mentioning that design changes were made when Rockwell/Delta began selling the AAMCO shaper but they have not gone into any details. Finally, are there any modifications that users have made that they would care to share? TIA for any information you might be able to offer. Too_Many_Tools ------- Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 21:18:09 -0600 From: "Edward Shelton" Subject: Re: AAMMCO Shaper I have an AAMCO shaper on the original stand. The holes in the table and knee were not threaded so that a shoulder bolt could go through to locate and clamp down. There are not " T" slots. The vise and other accessories had small keys on the bottom that fit in the slots to locate the vise to avoid indicating it in every time it was removed. I also have the original brochure and parts diagram if anyone wants copies or info. Ed ------- Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 03:11:45 -0000 From: "jonas1thomas " Subject: Ammco Counter Shaft Repair. I've finally got my Logan Lathe up and running and I'm starting to eye my Ammco shaper. First thing is to get the counter shaft and bearings fixed up. Does any one know why they used Babbbit bearings for the counter shaft? The input shaft has bronze. I thought it would be a lot less hassle for the long haul if I would open up the counter shaft housing slightly to accept a standard bronze oil-light bearing. Is there a down side to this that I'm not considering??? Thanks, JT ------- Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 22:29:03 -0600 From: jrw Subject: Re: Ammco Counter Shaft Repair. JT: I expect the babbit bearings were used for the same reason manufacturers do anything - COST. A good oilite (sintered bronze) bearing would present no problem except you might have to line bore the housings. What is the RPM of the shaft? It may not be high enough to get the system to run in the hydrodynamic range. JRW ------- Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2003 11:49:21 +1300 From: Tom Subject: Project 7" Ammco Shaper in Philadephia.... http://www.physics.upenn.edu/~borders/shaper/ Owner is Buddy Borders: bordersx~xxphysics.upenn.edu Tom ------- Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2003 21:29:08 -0600 From: "Harry" Subject: AMMCO 7" Reference my basket case AMMCO shaper. Finally got everything cleaned up and have started repairing the damaged parts. The bull gear has two stop pins 0 and 180. One is broken out, took 1/4 of a tooth with it. I can repair the tooth okay, but was wondering, is it okay to relocate the pins at 90 and 270. I haven't seen this machine assembled, what is the purpose of these pins? Just looks like they keep the slid from over shooting. don't recall anything like that on my 36" shaper. PS. I use the turkey cooker idea to clean the parts, worked really, really good, thanks for the tip. Harry ------- Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2003 18:01:50 +1300 From: giolw9r4vh001x~xxsneakemail.com Subject: Re: AMMCO 7" The pins just serve to stop the slide travelling too far. From what I recall when mine was apart, there should be no problem relocating things at 90 degrees. My Ammco bull gear is phenolic resin, which does lend itself to gluing in a piece with epoxy and then recutting the tooth, if you are really ambitious regards John ------- Date: Sun, 30 Mar 2003 10:31:01 -0000 From: "dreilanderecht" Subject: Re: Ammco shaper mattdragsx~xxearthlink.net wrote: > Anybody out there have a parts manual for 7"ammco shaper?? Hi Greg, I have a copy of the manual for the Delta-Rockwell version, although mine is actually the Ammco. So I can provide a copy if nobody any closer to you volunteers...I am in New Zealand. Mine has a flat belt drive...I wonder if it is the same? It has a three step flat belt pulley on the right hand side, and there is a motor and countershaft unit which mounts on the bench behind the sahper, This is quite different to the Delta Rockwell arrangement where the whole drive mounts on the shaper. I suspect the Delta Rockwell arrangement is later, it is certainly more compact and tidier. You know there is no need to sell it just because you have another, I have three now, although admittedly they are all differnt sizes. But you can double the rate of metal removal by setting them both going at once. Haven't managed that yet with three, although I have had two shapers, the lathe, and the metal cutting bandsaw all going at once on auto feed with me just twiddling my thumbs. regards John ------- Date: Sun, 30 Mar 2003 15:51:00 -0000 From: "mattdrag2002" Subject: Re: Ammco shaper It sounds just like the one i have!!! Your manual doesn't show the flat belt version does it??? Thanks Greg--- In ------- Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2003 03:13:40 -0000 From: "dreilanderecht" Subject: Re: Ammco shaper The manual is for the Delta Rockwell version with the drive all mounted on the machine. But other than the drive bits, everything else is the same. Send me an email at giolw9r4vh001 at sneakemail.com with your address and I will run off a copy for you. Don't worry about trying to send postage, it is more hassle than it is worth to get small sums of foreign currency. regards John ------- Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2003 16:24:41 -0800 From: "S or J" Subject: Re: Ammco shaper Hi Greg and John Sorry that I was a bit late reading mail on this subject. Greg: As John says, the AMMCO "6 Inch" shaper is actually nearly identical to the later Delta "7 Inch" variant except for the motor and belt system, and perhaps the elevating crank. If yours has the flat belt pulley system, then I suspect you also have a table vertical crank ("Elevating Crank Shaft") that is directly under the shaper (and needs a hole through the bench) as does mine. The Delta version had a right-angle bevel-gear takeoff so that the vertical table crank could be above bench level and come out the right side of the shaper base (right side as seen from the front, table end). This is the Delta official viewpoint to name Left and Right when describing the machine. Other than those differences, the Delta manuals apply admirably. Including the admonition for the motor as viewed from the left side to be turning counter-clockwise (the top of the bull gear to be turning towards the front of the machine). As received, a prior owner had set mine to run backwards. This matter has been well discussed in the shaper group here. The 6 Inch versus 7 Inch difference in name had little to do with actual stroke length which is just over 7 inches; AMMCO was just being more conservative in its name. Through the kindness of someone else in the group I have two variants of the Delta machine's 27-100 Instruction Manual PM-1737. The first calls the machine the Delta-Milwaukee 7" Precision Shaper (from the Delta-Milwaukee Machine Tools Co.) and is 14 pages dated 20 Oct 1950. The second calls it the Delta Shaper (from the Delta-Rockwell Power Tools Co.) and is 16 pages, revised date 20 Dec 1955. If you wish to save John some ocean postage, I will gladly send you both versions gratis. Just send me your snail address by e-mail message off-group. Incidentally, you will get some other useful shaper leads if you visit my website (totally private and non-commercial). Steve in Thunder Bay, Ontario http://www.janellestudio.com/metal/ ------- Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 08:09:35 -0000 From: "dreilanderecht" Subject: Ammco Vice Well Art, I finally found the time to download and install the viewer and now have a printout. Trouble is being me I look at it and think I could improve the design! So do I want a reasonably original looking one or do I want the best I can make....I guess there are more urgent things to do anyway for the moment, but I might make up a pattern for the main body, which is the only part that really needs a casting, the rest can come from continuous cast bar or steel stock as necessary. I have some patterns nearly ready to send to the foundry soon so one more wouldn't hurt. regards John ------- NOTE TO FILE: This is becoming a casting story, so it continues in the text file "Casting Metal". Yes this is for an AMMCO but the information discussed in the Casting Metal file will be useful to the owners of many other machines. ------- Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 19:26:38 -0000 From: "Art Volz" Subject: AMMCO Serial Number. Was:Re: OOPs,Forgot Rick-- I don't have a serial number list for the AMMCO shaper. But, if AMMCO used methods similar to some other contemporary manufacturers, your serial number could possibly be interpreted as follows. The "SH" most likely stands for "SH"aper. The following numerals-- 264610--could be interpreted several different ways. Identified by ID plate as a "6-inch", I would tend to think of your AMMCO as "earlier" rather than "later" and, of about, the WWII or immediately thereafter era. Now let's look at the linear number stream. "1926"--"26"--is probably too early and "1964", or "64" the next number set in line, is most likely too late as is the set following the next one, "61" or "1961". "1946"--"46"--feels right. Your AMMCO has the "feel" of a 1946 machine. Now, what do the other numbers mean; I have no idea what the "Serial Number Magicians" at these old companies were thinking about, as if they could think, when they contrived such silly numbering conventions. Perhaps the "6" preceeding the "46" means "June", and then your date of manufacture might be "June 1946". And, then again, it might not be. Now that you possibly might know the date of manufacture, what is its significance? Since parts aren't available from the OEM or his/her successor and the only operators/parts manual I've ever seen is when the AMMCO was badged a Delta, I don't think that the serial number has ANY importance, unless you use it as a benchmark for determining your age in either plus or minus increments. I've been known to do that: I'm younger than my Logan/MW 10x24 but, older than my Lewis, Benchmaster and Barker horizontal mills. Still, to me at least, insignifcant...and irrelevant. If armed with that information as to machine birthdate, we could then go to our local paint store and order: "I'd like a gallon of June 1946 grey/gray machine tool enamel, please, the flavor that was then being spread in Chicago." Well, maybe. Thinking about paint. I wouldn't paint diddly-squat on your shaper. Now, the original paint job--although worn with honest age--is authentic. But, some of us have "paint fetishes" that, seemingly are totally consuming. If you do paint, carefully remove all of the data plates via their pins, so you don't slobber paint on them as most obsessed "paint fanatics" do. I've seen good machines destroyed by painting, especially if the fanatic also feels he has to take the machine all apart and "fix" it. The machine usually is "fixed" and, like a nutered pet, it is forever. If you do anything, whatsoever, to that side access door with it's extremely good condition "AMMCO" logo decal, you also need to be "fixed" by a "paint fanatic": maybe 10 coats of never-dry red lead would be appropriate...and immediately prior to tossing yourself (maybe with lots of help) to the waves off of the "Golden Gate". If you could digitally record a high quality PIC of your AMMCO side door decal, and annotate it with dimensions, you would make yourself a true modern day hero amongst your fellow AMMCO owing breathern, whose own side doors have long lost their original decals, either scraped and damaged to points of non-recognition, or painted over by lunatics armed with a $1.87 spray can of Wallies machine grey/gray. Paint fanatics sniff paint!!! Art (Houston--The Richport of the South West) ------- Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 22:46:22 -0000 From: "dreilanderecht" Subject: AMMCO Serial Number. Sorry Art, but I don't think that your cunning and ingenious interpretation of the Ammco serial number will fly. The reason is that when I look at mine, for a machine that must be of similar vintage, It has 52 in that digit three and digit four position. So 1952 is possible maybe, except that my machine only has five digits, not six, in the whole number. I suspect that this means that it is older than Richards. Unless of course, the last one or two digits is the month of production, making mine January and Richards November. But I think that it is more likely that they would put the relatively fixed information like the year and month at the start of the number and the sequential number part at the end. This makes numbers that sort sensibly, eg the high numbers were made later, even if the number does not correspond to the number of machines actually made in a year. Actually, I have this little suspicion about my Ammco....American machine tools have never been all that common in New Zealand, due to Imperial loyalist feelings about buying from those rebellious colonies and so on, as well as exchange rate considerations. But one time when a lot of American equipment would have come into the country would have been during WWII. A lot of Marines and GI's were based here for training before the invasions up in the islands, so there were base facilities and workshops, fighter squadrons with Mustangs and so on. It is possible, though not provable, that my little Ammco came in as part of the base equipment for some American unit, and was written off or otherwise escaped at the end of the war. Much equipment was scrapped at that time, some because that was the terms of the supply contracts, but it was apparently possible to get something "scrapped" in your direction if you knew the right person, especially if you had a bottle of whisky. Actually the American troops had a reputation for being extraordinarily generous. My Dad used to tell of giving a couple of American soldiers a ride on the footplate of a locomotive once. One of them had a .45 revolver at his hip, so having not seen such a thing before Dad asked if he could have a look. No problem, but when he went to give it back the guy said "keep it"! Under NZ law, it is very difficult to get permission to own a handgun, so Dad had to persuade the guy to take it back.... Looking at the paint, as I said earlier mine is green, but where it is chipped it appears that there is a thin layer of grey underneath. So I suppose that could be the factory paint underneath, or it could be just a grey primer. I don't know if there would be a nice transfer like that lurking under the paint of my door, since I don't know where the door is. Never came with one. Oh well. regards John ------- Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 10:37:12 -0000 From: "dreilanderecht" Subject: Re: AMMCO Serial Number, more Having left the bit of cardboard I had written the number on at home...my actual number is SH41522. So it doesn't end in one but in two. Still leaves us with no real clues as to what it means, if anything. It would be tempting to think that the first digit was 41 for 1941, but that doesn't fit with Richards number. Maybe they were just a straight sequential number? I wonder how many of them they made??? Probably not that many I would guess. Although I suppose that if you take a population of say 100 million people, then take a wild stab and say that for every thousand people, there would be a garage, or a small industrial plant, or a school workshop that would have had a shaper. That would make a total market for 100,000 shapers, not all the same type of course. On the thread about reproducing a shaper now, wouldn't the thing be to import one of those ones the Chinese still make? I guess you would have to import a container load at least, and they might be a bit big for the ordinary home shop. regards John ------- Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 08:50:07 -0700 (PDT) From: J R Slack Subject: Re: AMMCO Serial Number. Just to further muddy the waters: My AAMCO 7" Shaper bears the serial number SH954271. It bears a War Production Board plaque, and the original paint is green (almost OD, actually). A stenciled marking underneath the (original) on/off switch says "June 1945", which pretty well establishes its provenance as a WWII machine. I agree with John that his gray underneath is probably primer; but I'm not going to chip the paint on mine to find out! Regards, Jack ------- Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 16:04:26 -0400 From: "S or J" Subject: Re: AMMCO Serial Number, more Hi John, and other AMMCO people. Your speculation on serial numbers made me go down and check mine. Incidentally, this one didn't have a door when I got it and shows no obvious sign of paint wear from putting the door on and off. I suspect the reason so many are missing doors is that it was an inconvenience to keep putting them on in a busy shop, so they got left off. When the machine changed owners, the door's location was long forgotten (as were many belt guards). The round door was also an attractive size to be incorporated into a lathe faceplate or other shop fixture, or fit in Art's pocket as a souvenir when he visits absolutely every shop in North America on his door-hunting expeditions :-) This one has a data plate that says: SERIAL NUMBER SH1111031 AMMCO 6" SHAPER. This is the model with the table elevation crank under the machine base (needing a hole in the workbench), and with a 3-speed flat belt pulley, and the original motor-pulley unit designed to be mounted separately to the bench behind the machine (as opposed to a more vertical motor-v-belt-pulley-unit mounted on the bench closer behind the shaper body as in later AMMCO and Delta-Milwaukee/Rockwell 7" designated variants.) Since this machine has characteristics that predate the Deltas of the early 1950's, yet the serial number is much longer than John's, the mystery of a logical date code deepens. Such a code would be even more complex if there were type 1 or 2 or more variants, and that went into the serial number also. I would be happy to do an off-group survey of the AMMCO serial numbers and main shaper characteristics, and report back to the group with the consolidated results in about 2 weeks. Please send a brief message to jstudiox~xxtbaytel.net with the following details filled in for your AMMCO: SERIAL NUMBER: ----------- Plate identifies as AMMCO 6" --- or AMMCO 7" --- Table elevation crank is under bench --- or out right side above bench --- Pulley on right side of shaper for a 3-speed flat belt --- or for a 4-speed v-belt --- or for some other --------- (as originally, not a conversion) What appears to be the original paint color? ---------- Dark/light? ----- regards Steve in Thunder Bay, Ontario http://www.janellestudio.com/metal/ ------- NOTE TO FILE: The prior thread on divining the date code of AMMCO shapers from their serial numbers continues here. That thread broke off into a more general manufacturing one, which can be found in the text file "Shaper History and Stories". ------- Date: Thu, 01 May 2003 20:05:12 -0000 From: "dreilanderecht" Subject: Re: Ammco shaper In Metal_Shapersx~xxyahoogroups.com, "cantstop47" wrote: > Why did you not post my question on how much is a ammco 6" shaper > worth? Thanks! Well it was posted, although I see nobody has tried to answer it yet. That may be because there is no easy answer. It will depend on what sort of condition it is in, where you are, and how good a negotiator you are. Best thing would be to check a few of the more recent auctions on Ebay and see if you can find out how much they went for. I don't know how long Ebay keeps finished auction results available. I could give my own guess, but probably one of the US based list members would have a better idea than I would, presuming of course that you want US prices. regards John ------- Date: Fri, 09 May 2003 17:36:52 -0000 From: "Art Volz" Subject: Re: AMMCO Serial Number, more (Help Please) > On 30 April I posted a help request to this group for input > into a survey of the AMMCO serial numbers and main shaper > characteristics. Replies were to be off-group to my > e-mail address jstudiox~xxt... and I would report back > to the group with the consolidated results in about 2 weeks. > Now there are two possible deductions that we can draw from > results so far (about half-way through the report period): > a. If the three people who replied so far (and received individual > confirmation, so they know who they are) and I are the only > owners of AMMCO shapers in the whole universe, then recent > guesses as to the worth of an AMMCO have to be revised > upwards from a few hundred dollars to many million $ apiece. > By heavens, the four of us are filthy rich and will celebrate at > John's new giant-castle/shaper-manufacturing-factory/brewery > in New Zealand! > or > b. Some of you have not yet replied, so: > Please send a brief message to jstudiox~xxt... with the following > details filled in for your AMMCO (and any other comments): > [SNIP - REPEAT OF EARLIER SURVEY QUESTIONS] Steve-- You don't get it! John has sent all anticipated respondents to your enquiry pleas plans for his "NZ-33-Sudz" (ex Czech Europa) MINI home- brewery. When you've got sudz...hell with the AMMCO!! (Have you ever been to Chicago???) :-) Art (Houston North: gone for the weekend trekking to Austin and back.) ------- Date: Sun, 18 May 2003 15:30:57 -0000 From: "dave_heinlein" Subject: Ammco Shaper part quest Hi all, I found this site through an aquaintance at the OWWM site, which I am a member of. Anyway, a machinist/machine collector buddy of mine is looking for a part for his Ammco 7" shaper ser.# SH-232677(which would pre-date many of the numbers I have seen here so far). He is looking for a "bull gear"(don't ask me, I'm a woodworker) to make his machine operate. Is there one out there to be had? If so, please contact me at heinleinwoodworksx~xxhvc.rr.com By the way, we are located in upstate NY, USA Thanks much, Dave Heinlein ------- Date: Sun, 18 May 2003 18:35:45 -0000 From: "Art Volz" Subject: Like Golden Goose Eggs--Re: Ammco Shaper part quest Dave-- There are absolutely NO new parts available for the AMMCO/Delta/Rockwell shaper. Can your friend tell us directly--is he online--about the condition of his current bull gear? Sometimes they are fixable...many times they are not. There are several ways to get a useable bull gear. One way is to have a new one made by a competent gear maker = expensive. Another way is to find someone parting-out an AMMCO who has a good (all the teeth) bull gear for sale. To find that for-sale bull gear will be quite a quest: after asking used machinery dealers, putting a want-ad into "Home Shop Machinist" magazine, and religiously (every day) searching eBay, the only REAL method is closing one's eyes real tight...and wishing with all one's might. Sometimes that method works for me...when I'm questing for shaper doors :-) An alternative fix would be to ascertain whether a new pinion and large gear set, from off-the-shelf sources such as Boston Gear, could be fitted. Another possibility would be to also see if the gears could be replaced with a suitable chain and sprocket set. Of course there's the other solution. Have your friend buy another shaper that he likes...at a price he wants to pay...that is fully operational. Then sell his current AMMCO either as-is or parted-out to "frenzied feeding parts predators" on eBay. (BTW, I'd like to buy his AMMCO side access door...if it still has the AMMCO red decal logo in pristine condition. :-) ) Art (Houston) ------- Date: Sun, 18 May 2003 20:28:13 -0000 From: "dreilanderecht" Subject: Re: Ammco Shaper part quest As Art implies, the only place you are likely to find an Ammco bull gear is in another Ammco. All is not lost however, they can sometimes be repaired or alternatively a new one could be made if necessary. Note that the original is made of synthetic resin bonded fibre, or SRBF as it is sometimes known. If there are only a few teeth damaged, you can cut them out and glue in a replacement piece. I seem to recall we had some correspondence here about doing this some time back, I beleive the job was successful. If too much is gone, then a suitable gear could be cut from another piece of SRBF, or even another material like cast iron. This would require the use of dividing equipment and a working shaper or mill, but would not be too much trouble to go to for a machine like this. I think this would actually be less trouble than fitting another type of drive. If you decide to "part it", I'll take the automatic feed parts! :) regards John ------- Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 10:45:27 -0000 From: "dreilanderecht" Subject: Re: Ammco Bull gear Some preliminary measurements...not enough to make one, but you can at least start looking for the blank and thinking about the machining... Diameter 6.125" Thickness .568" (maybe 9/16 nominal) Number of teeth 96 bore 2.008" (probably an easy fit overa two inch shaft) Both sides are recessed. Thje slide side is recessed 2.941" diameter .125 deep. (2 and 15/16) The shaft side is recessed 3.25 by .99" deep. (maybe 3/32 nominally) The gear is cut helically, I will check the angle but it seems to be about twenty degrees or so. This will complicate the cutting a little. Mine has visible wear on the driven face, but I should be able to get a reasonable figure for pressure angle from the less worn side I hope. It doesn't look too bad for 50+ years old, maybe 60. Well, it still has all its own teeth, which not everyone does by that age. regards John ------- Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 06:54:11 -0700 From: Keith Green Subject: Re: Re: Ammco Bull gear Since it's helical, you probably won't get a chordal measurement across the pitch circle. The pin measurement thing doesn't usually do much good here either, though it all depends on the helix angle. Crude way of doing it would be to ink the tips of the teeth and roll the gear along a line on a piece of paper. Measure the angle from the line. Being 50+ years old, the pressure angle will almost surely be 14.5 deg. as was the standard back then. keith. ------- Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 11:43:03 -0400 From: "S or J" Subject: AMMCO Shaper Survey Results Hi folks, First I would like to sincerely thank those members who took the time to respond to a survey of the serial numbers and main characteristics of the AMMCO shapers in our possession. Made two appeals to the group but only got six other submissions.. Although we barely met the number of items regarded as a minimum for a small sample to have any statistical significance, some design trends were still evident. Here are the results and perhaps we can add to the data over time. The data are grouped by AMMCO-plated size (6" or 7") and then ordered within those groups by serial number. [NOTE TO FILE: Indeed more members have replied since and the consolidated results were moved to near the start of this file to make life easier.] Color varies widely. Many report that there is a grey (gray) undercoat or possibly first color. Looked very hard at mine and could not positively identify a grey undercoat in chipped paint areas or where I scraped it. Both 6" models share common early characteristics of 3 Speed Flat Belt pulleys, elevation crank below bench, and original separate motor/pulley unit on bench behind the shaper. All 7" labelled models have the newer design elevation crank out the right side of the shaper casting, and a 4 Speed V-belt pulley system. ANOMALY: one 6" shaper's serial number is higher than most 7" shapers reported here. (It's mine so I know the number reported is correct.) This anomaly supports at least two possible theories: a.) a simple serial number system for the 7" starting somewhere within the existing 6" number range; or b.) at least some serial numbers include some sort of date code or manufacturing model/batch code and thus all the digits in the serial number are not indicative of simple sequential manufacturing. We do not have any definitive dates of manufacture. The first 6" has a reckoned age likely between 50 and 60 years, but we would need some original documentation to compare a date with a serial number in order to have a better shot at positively proving the code. Yet within the samples here, a couple of 7" shapers differ numerically by only the last two digits: SH965179 and SH965192. If the last three digits are really production numbering, they were produced just 13 units apart. In which case, the first digits of 965 could be September 1965. Applying the same theory to the fourth 7" SH1065291 gives Oct 1965. Applying that theory to the first listed 7" SH264610 could give Feb 1964, but that interpretation suggests a pretty large production schedule of at least 610 units in one month? This theory definitely falls apart on the last 7" SH1222446 which gives no logical year in the first few digits and this unit has the newer motor mount similar to those used by Deltas. Trying to look for years elsewhere in the number that gives a system consistent across all shapers here (and then even throwing in days of the month) has just made my head hurt. Found no easy answer to a date code theory. Perhaps someone else will see an answer. (But I would not like to see this expand into a thread which dragged on too much.) Someday we might find some old bills of sale or a factory document that solves it. So, if there is a code hidden in the serial number, it still remains a mystery to be deeply pondered over New Zealand Sudz whenever two or more AMMCOites chance upon the same watering hole. (We could have identified ourselves to one another in public by wearing an AMMCO shaper door as a belt buckle. Unfortunately most of ours have been appropriated to a door collection in Texas so huge that compasses within several miles all point at a single house instead of North. ;-) Thanks again fellows, Steve doorless ... in Thunder Bay, Ontario http://www.janellestudio.com/metal/ COMPLETED SURVEY RESULTS WERE MOVED TO THE BEGINNING OF THIS FILE, ALONG WITH SOME OTHER MACHINES REPORTED AFTER THE SURVEY ------- Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 18:39:36 -0000 From: "Art Volz" Subject: Re: AMMCO Shaper Survey Results Steve-- The belt buckle idea is not a bad one, except that here in Houston they would probably be too small and not high-chromed enuf to wear to the annual Rodeo. But, they could be chromed and enlarged in size...and even identified, on the inside, with the AMMO-ite's personnel serial number. You're right about the magnetic properties of my mound of iron doors. Had a visit from the Coast Guard & Homeland Security fellas the other day--seems I'm deflecting the compass needles on steamers in channel bound for the Port of Houston. They thought I might be an Ali-Baba Terr, or such. At least Logan cast their doors from "non-magnetic 8-electron aluminum". Will have to collect more Logan doors, I guess, to de- gausse the ferrous ones. Art ------- Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 16:19:18 -0400 From: "S or J" Subject: Re: AMMCO Shaper Survey Results Original Message ----- From: "Rich Klopp" To: Sent: Friday, May 23, 2003 11:58 AM Subject: More AMMCO results for survey > SERIAL NUMBER: SH1222401 > Plate identifies as AMMCO 7" > Table elevation crank is out right side above bench > Pulley on right side of shaper for a 4-speed v-belt. The original > died of cancer (cracked shortly after I got it, so I turned > a new one from solid 6061) > Motor and its pulleys on separate original unit > What appears to be the original paint color? Gray (Dark) > Has a tag on right side behind elevation crank: > "This machine conforms to orders of the War Production Board" > It allegedly came out of a Nike missile battery mobile machine shop > trailer, which would date it to the 50s I think. I don't know when > the War Production Board ceased tagging machines. > It has the rotary index table, vise, big and small keyway cutter > bars, original light (broken hood), and motor (on its last legs). > The door was missing, so I turned a new one from 6061 plate. The > machine is in overall good condition. Hi Folks, and a copy to Rich Murphy's law says finalize a survey and mail it to the group and then be guaranteed to get another entry within 24 hours. Rich I do truly appreciate your submission, particularly because it may provide a clue to when the AMMCO 7" version converted its motor mounting. Bit by bit we will accumulate data, and I will maintain a consolidated list of serial numbers. This list will also be posted in the AMMCO shaper file on my site after 01 June and kept updated about every month. (E-mail addresses in that site's files are coded to prevent spam-robot address harvesting and thus protect our members.) Steve in Thunder Bay, Ontario http://www.janellestudio.com/metal/ Machining and Metalworking at Home ------- Date: Sat, 24 May 2003 06:58:31 -0000 From: "markhubler" Subject: Dividing plates for AMMCO/Delta Index Centers I just picked up an AMMCO/Delta Index Centers and wondered if the dividing plates are some "standard" size, or do I need to make my own from scratch? I have the one that comes with the Index Center (i.e. 30 and 36), but I see in the manual that an optional 28 - 48 plate was also available. Has anyone adapted a gear setup to one of theses for more choices of divisions? ------- Date: Sat, 24 May 2003 10:10:14 -0400 From: "Rigrac" Subject: Re: Dividing plates for AMMCO/Delta Index Centers Mark : Do not see why you couldn't make own plates for Dividing Head using plate already there as pattern for size. I would however think it would be best if holes in plate were done on an N.C. machine (either N.C. Drill or N.C. Mill or N.C. Boring Mill) as holes would have to perfectly placed to ensure dividing functions created by them were dead accurate. Ron ------- Date: Sat, 24 May 2003 15:16:55 -0400 From: Alex Barrie Subject: 7 inch shaper bench height I am in the process of making a bench for my Ammco 7 inch shaper and was wondering what the height for the top of it should be? what is the height of the factory stand? it would be appreciated if any of you guys with a 7 inch shaper would fill me in on the factory stand height (South Bend, Atlas, Ammco, etc) much appreciated, Alex 1965 Myford ML7 1992 9 x33 Mill/ Drill War Era Ammco 7 shaper ------- Date: Sat, 24 May 2003 13:43:18 -0700 From: "larry g" Subject: Re: 7 inch shaper bench height In my opinion you should have the ram just about chest height. That's about the right height to have a hand on the slide for those manual vertical cuts. Adjust the height to your personal needs. lg no neat sig line ------- Date: Sat, 24 May 2003 23:03:19 -0000 From: "al_messer" Subject: Re: 7 inch shaper bench height Alex, I made my bench 8 feet long, 2 feet wide and 36-1/4" inches high and this height seems to work O.K. as far as having a hand on the down-feed crank. It is framed from 2 x 8's and the top is doubled 3/4" plywood. I went to a restaurant supply place and bought an old "sheet pan" to go under the Shaper to catch the excess oil and chips. One thing a lot of folks don't think about when building a bench is height vs. back troubles. Example: my kitchen sink counter is just about 2 inches too low for my wife or myself to stand and wash dishes for any length of time as we unconsciously slump down to reach the dishes and after a bit, our lower backs are killing us. My work benches in the shop, however, are at a level where I can stand in front of the vise and file away without my back hurting. An older machinist told me that the comfortable height for a workbench was measuring by holding your elbows at your sides and extending your hands outward and whatever the height of your forearms when held level, that was the proper height for YOUR bench. Hope this helps. Al ------- Date: Sat, 24 May 2003 19:52:36 EDT From: RIBuhitex~xxaol.com Subject: Re: 7 inch shaper bench height Alex, my AMMCO came with a stand that was not orig. It was made of welded angle iron.(2x2) It is 35.5 inches from floor to bottom of the shaper, 35inches long by 23 inches across at the bottom (floor) and 28x16 at the top. It has a shelf 10 inches up from the floor and 2 cross pieces at the top near the back of the shaper for support of the shaper and the motor. The underside of the shaper is exposed but I plan to add a catch pan under it that is removable for cleaning. This puts the cutter / work part at about 48 inches high. Wish I could send a sketch / picture of it but I am not yet able to do this. Hope this is of some help. If you need any more dim.s just e-mail me. Rick ------- Date: Sat, 24 May 2003 22:36:39 -0500 From: "Mario L Vitale" Subject: Re: 7 inch shaper bench height Alex, I understand the desire to make things as close to original as you can, but for the height of the stand you probably ought to consider what a comfortable working height would be for YOU. Mario ------- Date: Sun, 25 May 2003 06:16:46 -0000 From: "markhubler" Subject: Re: 7 inch shaper bench height You can see a picture of the factory Delta stand at the following: http://www.oldwwmachines.com/delta/1956Catalog.asp Download the "Metal Shaper" file. The is a page out of the 1956 Delta Catalog. The factory bench is 32" tall, 22" wide and 36" long. There is a much better drawing is the manual. The factory stand was portable (had wheel on the back legs that would touch the ground when you tilted up the front). The stand has a single drawer and two cupboards. Nothing really special about the cabinet, just a wood frame with a cabinet incorporated into it. ------- Date: Tue, 27 May 2003 13:43:18 -0000 From: "Pat Bearss" Subject: Bench Height I just finished making a tool post for my Shape-Rite 8"and fired it up for the first time. I hadn't run a shaper in 36 years. The first project is to make a support base for the table. Dick Streff sent me some pictures of his and I started shaping the support out of a 7- 1/4" x 2-1/2" x 2" block of steel. This brings me to the subject of this post - Bench Height. I have my 8" shaper mounted on a roll around base 16" high. It was the base off an old plotter. The great thing is that I can sit in my shop chair and easily make depth adjustments and change feed directions. Pat Bearss ------- Date: Tue, 27 May 2003 21:03:23 -0000 From: "dreilanderecht" Subject: Re: Ammco Bull gear More on the Ammco bull gear... The helix angle is twenty degrees, at least to within the limits that I have been able to measure it by "inking" it with grease and making an impression on paper. My gear is quite well worn, so I might find myself making one sometime. On the other hand, it has taken fifty years or so to wear as much as it has, so maybe it will see me out. I've also measured the depth of the teeth, which is 0.128". This should be useful to confirm that the tooth profile chosen is correct. I don't think I can make a measurement of the pressure angle, but it seems 14.5 degrees would be the figure to use. The only dimension that I haven't provided now is the spacing ofthe four threaded inserts, but it would be better to take these from the shaft which they must fit. regards John -------- Date: Tue, 27 May 2003 17:17:05 -0700 From: Keith Green Subject: Re: Re: Ammco Bull gear 20 deg. right or left? (/// is right). keith ------- Date: Wed, 28 May 2003 01:29:26 -0000 From: "dreilanderecht" Subject: Re: Ammco Bull gear I suppose that does make a difference :) OK, I actually have the piece of paper that I did the imprint on here with me at work, that has the pattern //// so I guess the gear is the opposite. That makes sense to me since it would put the side thrust towards the bullshaft side of the machine. I haven't thought much about cutting helical gears, but I guess you would need special cutters that are narrower than for the same module as a straight tooth. regards John ------- Date: Tue, 27 May 2003 20:24:11 -0700 From: Keith Green Subject: Re: Re: Ammco Bull gear Can't picture right now whether the print would be opposite. Just lay the gear on it's side and see which way the teeth tilt; up to the right is right, up to the left is left. The hobbing machines at work have the gear laying horizontal. You gear the thing up for straight spur gears so that that the table rotates at a rate to complement the downfeed which allows the teeth to come out straight. There are ratios to increase or decrease the rotation-to-downfeed rate to produce a helical gear. The thickness problem (clearance) is solved by tilting the head so the hob teeth pass through the gear blank at 90 deg. to the teeth being cut. On a single-cutter machine of milling machine/dividing-head setup, you would have to rotate the dividing head on the table and clamp it 20 deg. off the normal axis. also, I think you'd have to gear it up to the table so that it rotated a little for each tooth so the tooth gets cut helically around the blank instead of diagonally across the edge. Easiest way to visualize this stuff is to carry it to an extreme; say a gear with a helix of 70 deg. What would that setup have to look like? See? The helix angle has no effect on the other gear information nor on the time it will take to cut it. There should be enough here now for the gear-cutting guys at work to work their math-magic and figure out the rest. When I get that I'll post some preliminary drawings in the files section. I'll need the angle to be correct before then though. Thanks. keith. ------- Date: Wed, 28 May 2003 03:50:29 -0000 From: "dreilanderecht" Subject: Re: Ammco Bull gear Aaah but the gear is about ten miles away right now..when I get home I can look. But it will be opposite, same as if you plonk your oily hand on a white sheet of paper and then compare the hand to the print. But anyway, once I get home I can take a picture with my phone and post it on the pictures site, always reassuring to have a picture however low res. The other thing that occurs to me is to get guys with later models Ammcos to take a look, I doubt if they changed the gear in later models but it would be really annoying to find that you have made one that fits my machine and nobody elses. Well, I would be happy to have a spare, and if you plan to set up and make several I will certainly buy one as insurance. (Nothing ever breaks if you have a spare. Corollary...if you buy a junker car for spares, all the ones you ever need from it are already broken.) I don't think they would need to take the gear out like I did, just see if they can manage to confirm the number of teeth and maybe get a rough diameter measurement to see if that is close enough to the same. regards John ------- Date: Wed, 28 May 2003 10:34:14 -0000 From: "dreilanderecht" Subject: Re: Ammco Bull gear OK the photos from the little digital cam in the phone are not really good enough, can't distinguish dark teeth against a dark gear, so you will just have to take my word for it that they slope upwards to the left like \\\\ or if you like they run from north west to south east when the gear is lying flat on the table in front of you. regards John ------- Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2003 09:29:02 -0000 From: "Keith Green" Subject: Ammco phenolic gear information Given some supplied measurements, the gear cutter in my shop came up with the following information regarding the helical bull gear in the Ammco shaper. 6.125 outside diameter .568 face width 96 teeth 2.008 bore 1 side has a recess 2.941 dia. x .125 deep 1 side recessed 3.25 dia x .99 deep 20 deg. helix angle (can't remember if it's right or left) .128 whole depth 14-1/2 deg pressure angle (probable, based on age) 17 Diametral Pitch [NOTE TO FILE: WRONG -- SEE NEXT MSG.] The DP was calculated from the rest of the information. 17 DP is an oddball size so if anyone has further information which might change this number, please speak up. keith ------- Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2003 17:01:05 -0000 From: "joe mama" Subject: Re: Ammco phenolic gear information keith, using the formula: OD = (N + 2)/DP and solving for DP = 98/6.125 = 16. HTH. joe ------- Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2003 20:23:46 -0700 From: "keith green" Subject: Re: Re: Ammco phenolic gear information You're right. Didn't even check it after he told me. Sorry 'bout that. keith. ------- Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2003 04:22:19 -0400 From: "STEPHEN THOMPSON" Subject: Ammco 7" Shaper Value I just purchased an Ammco 7" Shaper on its original wooded cabinet. It is in extremely good original condition and has not been painted. No rust of any kind. All ways are very tight with no backlash on anything. I paid $600.00 for this machine yesterday. Did I get screwed? Also, I need a manual on this unit. The Serial Number is SHA64841. Does anyone know when it was manufactured? I am a lathe guy and this is my first shaper of this size. Thanks Aloha, Steve Thompson ------- NOTE TO FILE: serial number unlikely valid as is. No serial number has been reported starting with 3 letters. ------- Date: Thu, 03 Jul 2003 22:08:16 -0000 From: "Peter Verbree" Subject: Re: Ammco 7" Shaper Value Seems to be about average price for a machine of that type. Did you get the vise? Any tool holders? These Items are hard to find seperately and increase the value of the machine considerably. Have fun!! Cheers Pete ------- Date: Thu, 03 Jul 2003 23:13:29 -0000 From: "dreilanderecht" Subject: Re: Ammco 7" Shaper Value You will see if you look back a few weeks that we had a little survey of Ammco serial numbers. We didn't manage to figure out how to get a date out of them...it may not even be encoded in there...but most of them had six digits. Mine, and now yours, are the only ones known with only five. The guess is that this makes it an older machine, so the question now is does it have the table height screw under the bench? (the later machines have bevel gears and the adjustment at the side.) Also does it have the separate motor unit mounted on the bench with a flat belt drive? These seem to be characteristics of the earlier machines. Also, are the holes in your table tapped? The later machines have provision for the table to run off the cross feed screw before reaching the end of travel, but mine does not. Does the label on the machine actually say seven inches or six inches? It does sound like a good machine, not being in the USA myself I'm not ideally placed to comment on prices. I hope you do have the vice, although Art has posted a file here with the drawing so you can easily provide yourself with a quite authentic one. Well, maybe not easily, but not impossible. I have a pattern for the vice base casting with a local foundry at the moment, and we may arrange later for the pattern to be sent somewhere in the USA to make some there, as the transpacific postage for a heavy item like the actual casting might be a bit much. Do you have the original door? With the original transfer? If you do just remember to keep it out of Art's reach...:) Toolholders are not too much of a problem, you can make these yourself. There are two manuals, you really want both since they don't cover quite the same ground. If you can get someone closer to you to post one it will save time but if all else fails I can copy them and drop them in the post. Not that you necessarily need the manuals, but it is good to have as much info as possible. You will find the odd bit of info in the files here to help you get started. The older books on machine shop practice also often have useful chapters. regards John Auckland, New Zealand ------- Date: Fri, 04 Jul 2003 22:30:16 -0000 From: "dreilanderecht" Subject: Re: Ammco 7" Shaper Value --- In Metal_Shapersx~xxyahoogroups.com, "STEPHEN THOMPSON" wrote: >> Thanks for the feedback. It does have the vice and one tool holder. There is also another vice that was with it but don't know if it goes with the shaper or not. It looks more like a milling attachment for a lathe with a micrometer dial. << It wouldn't happen to be a vertical slide with a small vice for milling in the lathe would it? That can be a very handy thing to have, because, much as we shaper enthusiasts would hate to admit it, shapers are not very good at milling pockets. So if you don't happen to have a vertical mill, a vertical slide for the lathe would be quite a handy thing to have. Of course, if what you have is just the vice part, your shaper is just the thing to make the dovetail slides for the rest of it. It does indeed sound like you have picked up a nice machine. Hope you get a lot of pleasure out of it. regards John ------- Date: Mon, 07 Jul 2003 13:51:23 -0000 From: "wc10662000" Subject: Ammco 7" Shaper data Everyone, as suggested by a member I am posting my Ammco Shaper data. Larry Fitzmorris [Larry's data is in the survey section at start of this file.] ------- Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2003 22:35:28 -0000 From: "Matt" Subject: New guy new ammco shaper Hello all, I'm new to this board, and new to metal shapers. I have a varied and sorted background in wood working and metal working. I am currently a technology education teacher, but my first career was in the repair of musical instruments. I have a pretty good knowledge of the use of hand tools, turning on a metal lathe and milling, but I've only read about shapers. I wanted a shaper for a variety of reasons one of which was making dove tails. On a recent trip to OH, I aquired a 7" Ammco shaper ser# 554010. It has all of the guards, and what looks to be an original vise. It has the table support on the front of the table. The motor mounts seperately on a 4 bolt flange behind the main body of the shaper. The side cover on the main body is missing, but a kind person on the home shop machinist BBS is supposed to send me some pictures so I can replicate it. He is also supposed to send a copy of the manual for this machine too. I can't wait! Rather than ask information of you all, I'd like to share a bit of info I found after I bought my shaper. In an old set of books I have at home called "Modern Machine Shop Practices" Vol 3 Copyright 1943 by National schools. I came across an entire section on how to setup a shaper, grind tool bits, make dove tails, and much more. If you come across a set of these at a school auction or flea market don't pass them up, they contain a wealth of info. Regards, Matt ------- Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2003 23:22:44 -0000 From: "ammcoman2003" Subject: Proud new owner of an Ammco Shaper Hello to all of you. I have just picked a 6" Ammco shaper from a fellow member of our modeller's group. It has the serial number SH-1111019 and the table is raised by a screw accessed from below the base. I also received from the seller a copy of the Instructions and Parts Price List which pertains to those units starting with serial number SH-1111500 The date at the bottom left of the front page is Dec 1941. In the drawings the raising crank comes out on the side via a bevel gear. So mine might one of the last batch using the "under" crank. This may be of some help to those working out the date code system. At my former workplace making overload protectors for electric motors we used a single digit in the date code for the year so this may be the case for Ammco. I look forward to seeing further info on this subject and, being a newby to shapers, the great amount of really valuable information posted on this group site. Cheers, Geoff Kingma Toronto ------- Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2003 08:15:34 +0000 From: mariol.vitalex~xxatt.net Subject: Re: Re: Still looking for Ammco bull gear Art, Dave, I am always for trying something that sounds like a longshot... especially when you don't have any better alternatives and it doesn't take much effort....BUT, in this case, I'm afraid chances are pretty slim. About three years ago, Pentair Corporation (the holding company that bought both Porter-Cable, and Delta Tools) decided, in their infinite wisdom to bring the customer service organizations together in one location. In theory this did make sense....it was in the execution that all went awry. . It seems the Delta Tools customer service had been in Pittsburgh for over forty years, and it was staffed with folks who had worked there for twenty plus years. And just as Art suspected, you regularly heard customr service requests like this... Customer: I have an old Delta band saw and I need new tires for the wheels. Do you have them in stock? Delta: Is the blade tensioning knob round polished aluminum or is it a lobed cast iron knob? Customer: Uh...cast iron. Delta: That's a model# xxxx-3b and we have about four sets of tires in stock, and oh, by the way, the oilite bushing on the upper wheel usually get's worn and causes problems with the belt tracking. We have those in stock as well. Would you like to order one of them too? On the other hand, Porter-Cable was in a brand new facility in Jackson Tennesse and had a big half empty wharehouse with lots of enthusiastic new employees. Guess who moved!?!? Not only that, they simply, one day, told everyone in Pittsburgh that the company was moving to Tenessee in xx months, and oh, by the way, if you wanted to move to Tenn. you could. As you can imagine, when the spare parts inventory arrived in Tenn. (packed by the soon to be "redundent" Delta employees), it was not orderly and well marked. It took them over a year to get the shipment of new Delta products sorted out and the spare parts and servce is probably still a mess. When I was there right after the move there was only one engineer from Delta and he was one of three Delta folks who made the move!?!? Mario ------- Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2003 16:35:43 -0000 From: "Art Volz" Subject: Flapping In The Wind...Like Windmills (Was: AMMCO Bull Gear) Dave Heinlein wrote: > > Enjoy your quest! Beware of windmills...flappin' in the wind...just > > in case you might forget...that windmills flap. :-) > Sometimes they get loose and flap in the wind, but then that's a > design flaw, aint it? Dave in Chichester Many of the original windmills had canvas "blades" that flapped in the wind, especially fickle ones. Not a design flaw at all...maybe a technology gap...but, maybe, the optimal design for where they were located. Maybe they should be classified as "windpumps" for I recall seeing such in old Dutch paintings...pumping water from out of the lowlands and back into the awaiting sea. Interestingly, the bull gear that you seek was also made of canvas-- perhaps linen...impregnated with phenolic resin. Perhaps it was a design flaw--the use of "flappin'" linen--for many of these phenolic gears are, today, showing the toothlessness associated with their advancing age. If I had such an AMMCO, that was missing its bull gear, I would be investigating possible design alternatives: perhaps replacement with a chain and sproket system, with off the shelf components, similar to the excellent design used by Ford/Porter-Cable/Logan/B-G in the thousand and a half shapers that they collectively manufactured over the years with many still running...and with the original chains and sprockets. But, then, it wouldn't be quite right, would it? Sort of like a human heart transplanted with that of an ape...just not quite right. Monkey business at best. And, I guess, the real question...especially with an old machine...is whether it should remain as originally built, and thus inoperative until it gets an original type "ticker" replacement, or making chips with a design change replacement today. I think that the finding of a useable original AMMCO ticker will be extremely difficult if not impossible. But, then, stranger things happen...in this strange world of ours. Art (In Houston...wondering how it would be to have an ape's ticker ticking within.) ------- Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2003 20:04:20 -0000 From: "dreilanderecht" Subject: Re: Flapping In The Wind...Like Windmills (Was: AMMCO Bull Gear) I thought we covered quite well the documentation of the necessary dimensions of an AMMCO bullgear not so long back. All that is needed is a suitable blank and a bit of patience. Well, some dividing gear and a working shaper or mill would help of course. The technique that we argued about at rather too much length for cutting gears on a shaper would work for a helical gear, given the correct angle of offset and a bit of guidance for the wires so that they wrap properly onto the drum. I would suggest that a design that can last sixty years or so, as some seem to have, is probably actually quite adequate. Mine has the lowest serial number reported here so far and still has the original type...showing some wear but still going. Hard to tell if it has ever been replaced of course, but I doubt if AMMCO spares have ever been easy to obtain here in New Zealand. However, you could make a replacement out of cast iron, or even steel. The later will demand more care with lubrication, cast iron shares with the phenolic material the property of being quite tolerant of sketchy lubrication. I'd also suggest that if anyone does decide to set up to make one, they make a batch while they are about it, the extra ones would probably sell quite well on Ebay. I know a lot of people shy away from cutting gears...it is not as hard as it looks, at least for the sort of gears we want. I don't think I could do bits for a car gearbox! But changewheels for a lathe are not hard to do. The helix makes this one more of a challenge, but I would be more game to try that than I would to try and fit in an alternative drive like a chain. regards John ------- Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2003 21:39:51 -0000 From: "dreilanderecht" Subject: Re: Flapping In The Wind...Like Windmills (Was: AMMCO Bull Gear) Dealing with two at once here..... > Would is be possible to use straight involute gears and replace > the pinion also. These would be easier to make also. At the speeds > we need they dont have to be perfect but is they are badly done the > motion will not be completely smooth. It definitely would be possible to use straight involute gears. The main difficulty that I see is that you would have to determine the correct tooth size since the pitch circle is predetermined for you. The size needed might not be a standard size, but that is not the end of the world since there are techniques for determining a suitable approximation and making a gear cutter, or else a generating process will give the correct curve (or very close to it) from a relatively easy to make rack tooth shaped cutter. A second hurdle is that the smaller pinion should probably be hardened steel. This might mean that you need to establish liaison with a professional hardening service, if such is available in your area. Unless of course you are confident that you can harden such a pinion without causing any distortion! > >Has anyone, out there in Hobbyist Shaper Land, made a replacement > >bull gear for an AMMCO? Is anyone contemplating doing so? Does > >anyone have a horizontal mill with special indexing/dividing head I haven't made one, but I am certainly contemplating doing so. I don't have a horizontal mill, but there are more ways of killing a cat than choking it with cream. Consider, the approach you mention is to use a dividing head mounted on the milling table at a suitable angle and gear the head to the table so that a normal gear cutter can cut the helical tooth gap. (Or sometimes a more elaborate arrangement with a hobbing cutter generating the tooth form.) This means that you would also require a gear cutter of the right pitch. I have a set but they are for twenty DP, very handy for knocking out Myford change wheels, but hardly the thing for an AMMCO. I don't know in fact if the size of the AMMCO teeth is one that it would be easy to get a ready made gear cutter for. So how would I do it? Well, so far I have contempated two approaches. Both depend of course on the fact that I have a Vertex dividing attachment, the BS0 model, which is the basic worm dividing one with no changewheels for differential. But since we want 96 teeth this is no problem, 96 is one of the numbers it will do easily. One uses the vertical mill. A suitable gear cutter is made by the approach where you determine the correct diameter for a pair of hardened buttons which are set the correct distance apart and used to turn a disk with the desired gap form. The disk is notched to provide a cutting edge, and set on an offset centre so that the cutting edge is backed off. This is mounted on a mandrel in the mill. The mill head is set at the helix angle. The Vertex then has changewheels added to allow it to be geared to the feed on the milling table. I haven't sketched out the details of this, but instead of the dividing wheel being fixed to the body of the dividing head, it would be fixed to a gear driven from the feedscrew in the correct ratio. Remember I can make my own changewheels! A bevel pair would also be needed, but I have a 1 to 1 pair lying around that would do. I want to do something like this in the long run anyway, since spiral columns on a steam engine, say a beam engine, could look rather spiffy. Gotchas would include the need to make sure that any backlash in the gearing was always taken up in the same direction, we don't need anything to move under the cutting load. (Incidently, although the homemade cutter can never be the correct involute, the error can be kept small, eg no worse than the error caused by using commercial cutters for a range of sizes when they are only correct for one.) Second approach is based on the technique as discussed earlier. Now maybe you are not yet convinced that this will in fact generate a correct spiral tooth...Let me describe the setup I contemplate. The dividing attachment has a drum on the back the size of the pitch circle. This is pinned to the shaft by some means that lets you set it in the correct number of positions. He used a gear with the right number of teeth...I can of course make a disk with 96 holes quite easily. The dividing head is set with the axis at the correct angle to the ram, eg twenty degrees. The wire is set up across the throat of the shaper as per the original, but needs a pair of guide rollers attached to the table so that it does not walk sideways on the angled drum as the shaper traverses. So one end of the wire will be attached forward of the other on the actual shaper. The cutter is, as before,a single tooth of rack form. Now, if you picture this passing through the top of the wheel blank, You are probably thinking that this is cutting a straight line, not a helix. This would be true, if we only did one cut. but as the shaper traverses, we do many cuts,each slightly further along. The effect is that the single tooth traces the outline of a perfect rack tooth with which the nascent wheel is engaged. So the shape we need is generated in the wheel as the shaper traverses through the cut. The traverse must start before the cutter touches the wheel, and continue through until the cutter is clear on the other side. The drum and wire rotate the blank as if it was in engagement with a rack. After each tooth is cut, the blank is shifted around by one tooth division relative to the drum and the next tooth is cut. This approach is geometrically valid, the only misgiving I have is as to the absolute accuracy that can be obtained with aging amateur equipment. Bearing in mind that I don't have the sort of gear that the professionals would have for checking the results! I am pretty sure that with care in making up the attachment and the wires etc, we could get results that would be good enough for the AMMCO bull wheel. I don't think they would be good enough for reduction gearing for a steam turbine! Finally a helical gear is really just a coarse pitch multistart screw thread of special form...if you can cut multistart threads in your lathe you can cut such a gear, in principle at least. Practically it would not be cut with a normal tool, it would need to be milled with a milling attachment atached to the saddle. But I haven't seriously contemplated this one. I do intend to have a go at cutting an AMMCO bull gear. But at the moment, I am rather foccussed on my launch engine. I just got the crankshaft back from the grinders and have for the first time seen parts turn around and go up and down...this creates a rather strong desire to press on and get things put together so it can run on air. So unless my AMMCO wheel gets stripped out I am not likely to take time out from the main project for a few months yet. > >Anyone game on making a short run of "inexpensive replacements?", > >precisely and accurately machined to original specs and tolerances > >so that ailing AMMCOs could be fixed to again be "an extremely > >quiet running and a smooth operating machine"? I would bet you say, a dozen beer (Not American!) that I could make a wheel that will run quietly and well, although I would not guarantee to be as quiet as the original, or to the original tolerances. But that is hardly the point when it is a question of whether or not the machine goes at all. As far as a short run goes...well, if we can find say half a dozen or more people who want one, we could probably find someone with the right machine, supply them with blanks, and have them do the tricky part. > >An alternative drive, such as sprocket and chain or simply a > >straighttoothed pinion and bull gear would be, in my estimation, > >readily more effected by most of us than would be attempting, with > >inadequate machine tools, the machining of a "spiral toothed" > >AMMCO "quiet" and "smooth" replacement...whether of phenolic > >lamainate or of CI. Certainly the chain would be easier, I just think it is a bit of a kludge. The straight cut gear would be more in keeping...harder to do but not as hard as the helical. > >If not on the Emerald Isle, where can those treasure troves > >of "inexpensive" gears be hiding...for the last 60 years? The ones > >that AMMCO stocked for "easy replacement? Carmen Santiago, where in > >the world are you in our moment of greatest need? Probably there is a stack of phenolic gears stubbornly refusing to biodegrade in a landfill somewhere. Maybe they are in that warehouse soemwhere, but I would guess that it is more likely that they were tossed, or that they ran out and didn't restock. I think we are on our own for spares...particularly here in New Zealand! John ------- Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 07:41:40 -0000 From: "dreilanderecht" Subject: Castings arrive Hi All, my latest batch of castings is back from the foundry. Due to some changes in plan I needed a set of covers for the piston valve chests for my launch engine. I decided to bring the exhausts out through the covers instead of the side of the chest, which meant that the covers could not just be turned from bar. While I was about it I made patterns for the following shaper related bits: A foot and a flange for the support leg of the Alba 4S. By a bit of low cunning I can use the same pattern for each, the flange bolts on under the table using the two holes where the missing original went, holding a leg made from steel bar with another identical piece on the bottom to form the foot that slides along the base. The flange on the bottom won't need drilling for bolt holes of course. A casting for the original design of AMMCO vice. Just the main casting as the moving jaw and the round part underneath the base can both easily be made from cast iron bar. A pair of castings for the AMMCO dividing attachment. This is the base an the little headstock. I'll machine these up as close to standard as possible, but will make it possible to add on a worm and wheel for precision dividing too. They all look pretty good. I won't be machining them very soon, at least only the launch engine bits. This is mostly because the launch engine is the priority job, and also because warping is not likely to be a problem with these small chunky castings. The longer ones like the vice and the divider might be better for a little bit of time to season. Ok, I might encourage this with a bit of temperature cycling too. Anyway, it is all very satisfying. I'll take some pictures when I get the chance. I got spares done for the AMMCO ones, once I have had a chance to botch up my own they might be available. Anyway, the patterns exist, so maybe they could take a trip stateside sometime. regards John ------- Date: Thu, 02 Oct 2003 15:39:25 -0000 From: "Art Volz" Subject: Kiwi John: Need AMMCO Gear Data John-- I'd like some basic measurements, in INCHES, in re your AMMCO bull gear and drive pinion: --Bull Gear: ----Thickness? ----Number of Teeth? ----Guestimate of Diametral Pitch (Tooth Size)? --Pinion: ----Thickness? ----Number of Teeth? ----Guesstimate of Diametral Pitch (Tooth Size should be same as Bull) --Distance Between Centers of Bull Gear and Pinion Shafts? I want to do a wee bit of number crunching. Thanx-- Art (Houston) ------- Date: Thu, 02 Oct 2003 22:53:45 -0000 From: "dreilanderecht" Subject: Re: Kiwi John: Need AMMCO Gear Data Hi Art, I'll be happy to oblige, and should be able to get at it this weekend, which starts for me a lot sooner than it does for you guys. In the meantime, I think you will find the bull gear data further back among the posts from last time this came up. I'm not sure how easy it is going to be to measure up the pinion, and I don't really want to totally dismantle the machine again, especially since I already have the big machine partly down. (doing the downslide and also getting the vice cleaned up ready to paint it.) It would of course be possible to make a pair of straight cut gears with the same pitch circle and number of teeth and have them mesh correctly. I wonder if this is what you are thinking of? I still don't think the helical one is that hard, but I can see that I will have to do one to convince you. Ah well, so far I have got as far as cutting a blank off while I had the piece of stock in the saw! I want to set up so that I can gear the Vertex dividing head to the cross feedscrew, while still being able to angle the dividing head axis. This will need a number of change wheels plus a universal joint or two. I'm still mulling over the physical arrangements in my head, but it looks like a bit of a project, and getting the launch engine running on air by Christmas is still the priority. In effect what I would be doing is connecting the dividing wheel of the vertex to the leadscrew. But I probably wouldn't use the standard dividing pin etc since I don't want to wreck it. The same sort of setup has possibilities for milling long spirals on the vertical mill, so is a good project to think about anyway And yes, I can do inches! I don't like inch fractions though, or Whitworth threads.... (how far is 1 and 13/16 plus two and 15/32...life is too short to care...) Actually nobody has got threads completely right yet, The British did the 55 degree thing, the Americans got the angle right but do that odd stuff with wire gauges, and the pitch system on the metric ones makes for some funny changewheels. regards John ------- Date: Fri, 03 Oct 2003 15:30:30 -0000 From: "Art Volz" Subject: Re: Kiwi John: Need AMMCO Gear Data John -- Don't take anything apart. In Message #4546 the following measurements & calculations stated that the AMMCO bull gear was: 6.125 OD (measured), 96 Teeth (counted), and 16 DP (calculated). Hope that these are correct! The center-to-center distance between pinion gear shaft and bull gear shaft can be directly measured with a 12" caliper and then 1/2 the diameters of both the pinion shaft and the bull gear shaft could then be subracted to determine this distance. I'd like to know what these shaft diameters are also. If the bull gear is REALLY a 96 Tooth 16 DP, then the EXACT center-to-center distance is the other critical dimension. Anyone have a AMMCO dissassembled who can measure the bull gear/pinion gear thickness? You're right, John, I am trying to determine correct dimensional data from which to determine the process/tooling needed to make straight tooth replacement gearing for the AMMCO for those unable to cut replacement spiral gearing. I "might" be willing to make several straight tooth gear sets (partially completed = teeth cut in proper thickness aluminum (bull) and steel (pinion) gear blanks) with my Benchmaster horizontal mill and Vertex (B&S #0 clone) semi-universal dividing/indexing head...or maybe Mississippi Mike (Sir Grey Bus) "might" be willing. Art (Houston) ------- Date: Fri, 03 Oct 2003 22:25:31 -0000 From: "dreilanderecht" Subject: Re: Kiwi John: Need AMMCO Gear Data Hi Art, Well, for truly accurate measurements I would have to take some bits off, so take these with a grain of salt if they don't seem quite right. The pinion has 16 teeth as counted. The width is the same as the bull gear, by eyeball only. The tip diameter is 1.1 inch and the root diameter is .847. These were measured using a pair of dividers to transfer the measurement, so I would not trust them to be extremely accurate. The shaft is .500 inch where the pinion goes on. The pinion has an extension just under the root circle diameter about 3/8 wide with a taper pin though it to retain it on the shaft. So the blank needs to be wider than the bull gear blank. The shaft spacing is 3.515 inches. This is measured by taking the diameter of the flat pulley, the diameter of a collar on the bull shaft, and the spacing between them and doing the calculation. I'll give you the raw data: collar 2.108 space .774 pulley 3.334 Since the pulley is slightly crowned, I was trying to be consistent about the point the two measurements are taken at. I could refine this but it means taking off the feed arrangement and pulley. I would be perfectly prepared to beleive that the actual spacing would be 3.5" That would fit in with the 16 DP and the number of teeth on both wheels. I can quite beleive that my measurement could be out by that much. I've got a BS0 too, the genuine Vertex. Of course, I wish it was a BS2, and the ideas I have for providing it with change wheels would effectively make it into one of these. regards John ------- Date: Sat, 04 Oct 2003 09:11:18 -0000 From: "Art Volz" Subject: Gears: Engineering Info (Ref: AMMCO Gears) FYI-- Engineering information--formulas, etc.--for various gear types at: http://bostongear.com/pdf/gears_catalog_sections/12_engineering_inform ation.pdf . (NOTE: if Yahoo truncates URL above, repair--glue back together--at "address" box and re-enter.) PDF file is 21 pages at 485Kb download. Specific data and formulas for HELICAL GEARS (spiral gears) at pp. 142-144. Art (Houston...at 4AM on a Saturday autumn morn.) ------- Date: Wed, 08 Oct 2003 16:35:28 -0000 From: "Art Volz" Subject: AMMCO Stroke Length > I believe that the convention for determining the nominal size of a > shaper refers to the maximum size of a cube that the shaper can > handle, not to the stroke length. A shaper capable of finishing a > 6" by 6" by 6" cube would need a stroke of greater than 6" - say > about 7". John Martin John-- The "cube" thing may have been a "convention", but I don't know any of the shaper makers who ever really followed it. I think the "cube" was contrived by textbook writers (some nonsense to write test questions about) & advertisement copy hacks rather than the makers' engineering departments. Go to Tony G's site-- http://www.lathes.co.uk/ammco --and, in the first paragraph, read the up/down, left/right movement capabilities of the AMMCO/Delta table, the up/down movement capabilities of the tool slide, and the fore/aft ram capibility, and go figure: what size cube be this? Near the end of the first paragraph it states that AMMCO called their shaper a 6-inch where the actual possible max ram stroke was 7.25 inches and, when Rockwell-Delta marketed the SAME shaper, they called it a 7-inch. I think the real "cube" was between the ears of the marketing departments' "deep thinkers" at the various companies, for the marketeers were the ones who determined by what numbers their shapers would be called. I hate "conventions" cuz they never, ever, really are "conventional". :-) Art (Houston) ------- Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2003 17:39:38 -0000 From: "Art Volz" Subject: Joe W's Colchester Gear. wuz: Re: Leaded steel, NON-Green steel 12L14 Joe-- Just went to http://www.mscdirect.com and looked for a sheet of LE grade phenolic impregnated fabric of size 0.625 x 12 x 12 from which to machine an AMMCO bull gear--spiral or straight--and discovered the price at a hefty $46.10 exluding shipping. At http://www.mcmaster.com , a same size sheet of similar Garolite LE grade (#874K181) is $47.15 plus shipping. McMaster, however, gives the "skinny" about this material, which is NOT designed for hobbyists to machine gears from. It has good strength characteristics, especially for a plastic, but lower than 6061 aluminum, of 11,700 psi cross-wise & 15,300 length-wise. It also has a hardness rating of Barcol 46-10, but has a severe problem for hobbyists attempting to machine anything from it: only DIAMOND-TIPPED tools are recommended for machining this stuff. My wife OWNS the ONLY diamonds in my house and, when asked, resolutely has prohibited my use of them in any and all engineering "experiments" or other such "tom-foolery", no matter how good and noble the cause may be. I do not know where to buy reasonably priced diamond tipped gear cutters in 16 DP sizes, or at any price for that matter. The only gear cutters that I can locate are high speed steel ones, and they're expensive enuf. To attempt to cut 96 teeth in a 5/8 inch thick round chunk of LE grade phenolic will surely dull the tool beyond use--without multiple, during cutting operations, resharpenings--in very short order. And, then, few of us hobbyists have, or have access to, proper cutter and tool grinding machines with the capability of properly fixing, locating, and re-sharpening form cutter tools as the gear cutters are. It appears to me, that while the manufacturing of LE grade phenolic impregnated fabric gears is feasible by industrial manufacturers, it is totally impractical from a "normal" hobbyist's view point...and apparently much more expensive than much cheaper metallic alternatives. Got any diamond tipped 16DP, No. 2, 14-1/2 PA, gear cutters? (Ich haben milch...und kase...fur Kris Kringle. :-) ) Art (Houston North) ------- Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2003 14:01:55 -0500 From: jrw Subject: Re: Joe W's Colchester Gear. wuz: Re: Leaded steel, NON-Green steel 12L14 Art: The MSC product and the Garolite appear be the same material only different trade names. Both are linen filled with phenolic resin . I have machined lots of the product with out any problems. I use the plate stock and with a hole saw drill out a hole (the hole cut out plugs are handy for other projects) and then band saw the OD to rough size. The part is then chucked up and the hole is bored to size. Then it is mounted on an internal expanding collet and the OD machined. Sharp high speed tools do fine. The tendency is to run the cutting speed too fast. It takes SHARP tools and a good dust collection system. I run the vacuum hose next to the cutting tool and still have dust all over the shop. Any good gear cutter will do fine as they are not run at high RPM's. Joe ------- Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2003 21:17:25 -0000 From: "Art Volz" Subject: Joe W's Colchester Gear. wuz: Re: Leaded steel, NON-Green steel 12L14 Joe-- You may have been able to machine LE phenolic fabric without problems on a lathe with an EASILY resharpenable HSS single point tool...resharpenable w/o cost if you had needed to do so. Doing so is a world of difference to cutting a gear with a formed gear cutter, and for which I and most hobbyists do NOT have a tool and cutter grinder to resharpen it with if need be. HSS gear cutters cost $30 bucks a pop plus shipping; HSS stix are about a buck apiece and easily resharpened. The practicality of cutting a LE gear, just considering the amount of money that I'm willing to expend on cutting one such gear, is not apparent to me. For one, I can obtain almost TWO same sized metal blanks--in #40 grey CI, SAE 1018, or in Al 6061...for the same price as ONE piece of LE phenolic-fabric. I've heard from other sources that the cutting of LE phenolic is also prone to severe chipping unless a rigid set of metal plates are secured to both sides of the phenolic blank. More money...and for plates that would soon be scrap...unless thick enuf to be used as bull gears themselves. And then there are the machines that I have (I'm just considering myself) to cut such a gear are reduced to either a Lewis horizontal mill or a bulkier/more-rigid Benchmaster of similar size. I have tried mounting a 7/8 inch ID 2-1/4 inch ID HSS DP 16 gear cutter in a special R8-7/8-inch stub arbor (from Bob Bertand at Lathemaster) in my vertical mill, but I do not have the clearance vis-a-vis the spindle and the gear blank to do so and cut an AMMCO sized bull gear. Additionally, there are other problems. Unless I re-motor my vertical mill with a speed reducing DC speed controlled motor, or something like an even more expensive VFD system, the minumum speed for cutting steel is much too high, although OK for aluminum with either a 2-1/8 inch or 2-1/2 inch OD gear cutter. (More on speeds and materials later--can't write a book all at once.) The Benchmaster has the same minimum speed problems: too fast for SAE 1018, but OK for Al 6061. All that being said, my situation, the only PRACTICAL solution for me, from machine capability to cost, is an Al 6061 gear. Is it perfect, is it the best, will it last for eons? NO! Is it practical, will it give long enuf service for most hobbyist's use, and be doable and economical at the same time? YES...at least for me! Others, wishing to make gears, perhaps for an AMMCO or a Lewis, or whatever, may wish to make their gears otherwise. I will take the low road, the workable practical road for me, the economical road, that is as we used to say in the Green Machine: "Good Enuf For Gov'ment Work"...and good enuf for me too. (I'd be one of those dumbies that would have been willing to fly over the "hump" in the military version of a DC-3, with one wing replaced with a shorter one- -but, available one--from a DC-2. Interestingly, LTG Vinegar Joe's jungle-rotted boys did this, and more than once. When you needs them grits and bullets.... In the jungles of Burma, you had to do what was possible, to do what was practical. A 75-percent solution, and when you need it, is always better than a higher percentage solution that is not possible. Hitler learned this lesson at Kursk...it ended up killing him.) But, "The Aluminum won't wear well!" Maybe "yes"...and maybe "no"...I don't know how many service hours--and no one here does either-- just how many service hours an AMMCO shaper will give before a Al 6061 gear needs to be replaced...or rotated 180 degrees. There has been some concern about grit abrading an aluminum gear. I'm sure of it, and grit will grind away at CI, steel, phenolic, and even zinc-alloy gears as well. (Atlas used zinc alloy gears--not in their shaper bull gear, though--in about all of ther machines...and, except for "zinc cancer", accomplished the mission and with easily made die castings.) The best way to avoid grit abrading the gears is to shut the "damn door", and use clean lubricants (DON'T USE GREASE!!). For those with pumps AND filters AND with doors (the ones I haven't stolen) will be able to do this in better fashion; some will need to close the column bottom opening as well. Art (Houston) ------- Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2003 22:43:07 -0000 From: "stevenson_engineers" Subject: Joe W's Colchester Gear. wuz: Re: Leaded steel, NON-Green steel 12L14 Art, Loads of bollocks. Tufnol of all grades can be machined fine with sharp HSS tools. I have made many gears out of this material, we use it all the while for brush rings for big DC motors. For milling with 5/16" cutters we run at abour 4,000 revs, a 2 1/2" to 3" gear cutter we run at about 500 revs with no problem. Only problem with Turnol is the price. At one time it was made from pressed linen sheet impregnated with resin. Nowdays its made from fifty pound notes pressed together and impregnated with liquid gold. Somewhere I have an origianl handbook on machining Tufnol issed by the company who makes it. John S. ------- Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2003 16:04:44 -0700 From: "keith green" Subject: Re: Joe W's Colchester Gear. wuz: Re: Leaded steel, NON-Green steel 12L14 I work in a gearcutting shop and we use the phenolic material all the time there. No diamond tools required. It's machined as any other plastic would be. Lots of coolant to keep the incredibly stinky dust down and cut as usual with HSS gear cutters. May be a little abrasive but I've not had any complaints about it from the gearcutters, other than the smell. Did I mention it SMELLS? Absolutely REEKS. Dust mask and plenty of ventilation and wash your clothes and yourself immediately kind-of-stink. The material we use we simply call by it's trade name of 'Celeron'. Light brown when dry, darker wet. I've heard there are grades not suitable for gears but I guess we use the gear-grade for everything to avoid confusion. Keith Green Vancouver, BC ------- Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2003 20:41:56 -0500 From: jrw Subject: Re: Joe W's Colchester Gear. wuz: Re: Leaded steel, NON-Green steel 12L14 Art: The "Tufnol" and "Garolite" are trade names and the composition of the products can vary anywhere from paper, cotton, linen, or fiber glass with various resins used for the binder. I prefer to use the generic names. "Celeron" - the only name I can find for that product is the Intel Computer chip line although it may be a trade name associated with a line of plastics. The "Tufnol" literature shows it being used for gears and even down to small pitches. The hard thing on tools is the Epoxy/fiberglass products and it will dull a band saw blade in a hurry. Joe ------- Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2003 02:46:58 -0000 From: "Art Volz" Subject: "Celeron" Phenolic Laminate URL. wuz:Joe W's Colchester Gear. Joe--The "Celeron" phenolic laminate is manufactured by a company "GRT Genesis" with head office in Brampton, Ontario. "Celeron" is discussed at http://www.grtgenesis.com/page3.htm , but without any specs that I could find. Art (Houston) ------- Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2003 08:10:47 -0000 From: "stevenson_engineers" Subject: Joe W's Colchester Gear. wuz: Re: Leaded steel, NON-Green steel 12L14 Art. There is a data sheet for the Tufnol Carp brand at http://homepage.ntlworld.com/stevenson.engineers/lsteve/files/Engineer ing%20materials.pdf I don't know of any suppliers in the US for small quantities. As regards sharpening gear cutters they are always ground on the face only and radially, doing this keeps the true profile. John S. ------- Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2003 18:57:35 -0000 From: "Art Volz" Subject: Re: Ammco lurker In Metal_Shapersx~xxyahoogroups.com, "valblok" wrote: > I have been lurking on this group for a considerable time. This is > my first post. I have learned a lot from you guys, as I am new to > metalworking. I now bought a Ammco 7 inch that belonged to the > South-African weather service. I bought it unseen and when I went > to pick it up, I got a pleasant surprise. Apart from the vice, I > also got the original rotary table and the > factory "dividing head". It has > plates with 30, 36, 32, 20, 40, 22, 27, 28, and 48 holes as well as > a large plate with 135 holes. Most of the plates seem to be shop > made. It also came with spanners and a tool holder for internal work > that seems to be factory made. (Serial number SH1275815, separate > motor, 4-speed pulley.) Welcome Val -- Good haul!! > I started making chips with it, but need to make myself a tool > holder according to Art's drawing. Some people have made the tool holder using silver-solder to affix the shank to the head rather than brazing. Silver-solder will give an exceptional appearing joint and, if very carefully and closely fitted, will be exceptionly strong as well. (Don't use a motor larger than the 1/3 HP OEM #62-180.) A simple jig to hold the shank and head rigidly in place for silver soldering, or brazing, is easily made. Use a 6-inch long length of 1/4-inch square keystock firmly gripped, as if it were a tool bit, in the head and then carefully clamp, using two 2-inch C-clamps or smaller, the keystock atop of and parallel with the shank. Voila!! > Everything seems to be in good shape, though there is too much play > to my liking laterally in the table. I suspect the nut on the > lateral feed. To me it seems strange that no provision was made for > locking the table on the lateral plane. Why is that? It would have > been easy to tap the table from the bottom and put a lock there. I > thought it would be useful like when cutting slots and keyways to > be able to lock the table. A locking system should be easy to make for the traverse movement of the table similar to the one used for locking vertical movement. I never noticed it before, but looking at the exploded drawing for the Cross Rail & Table, it appears that there is only ONE set screw (S- 165) holding the Table Gib (S-2513) in place. I think the designers depended on the cross feed screw to prevent lateral table movement. This could be because they were concerned about possible machine damage if a traverse lock was used while the traversing feed mechanism was engaged. > I plan to start practising making square holes, as I am very > interested in falling block single shot rifle actions. Greetings Valblok Keep us apprised of the machining progress on your falling block rifle(s). For which caliber(s) do you intend to design it/them for? Art (Houston) ------- Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2003 17:21:26 -0000 From: "Art Volz" Subject: Re: need ammco help In Metal_Shapersx~xxyahoogroups.com, "karkar62" wrote: >I finally bought a shaper. Other than minor shipping damage i hope it >will be a good machine. It is a 7in ammco ser no SH854192 with war >prod board plate on it,anybody have an idea how old it is? Hiya K-K-- With the war tag and that serial number I suspect it was made in 1941. >The vise does not look like the vise in the manual,it is constructed >lighter but it has the graduated base and fits the machine,could it >be an early or newer model vise? I don't have a clue what your vise could be unless you post PIX x~xx http://www.groups.yahoo.com/group/Metal_Shapers_Pix at "Photos"--that is our PIX and Files expansion site. BTW, there is an eDrawings file at "Files" here of a completely dimensioned parts drawing set for machining your own "spitting-image" AMMCO vise, if you have the capability of making one...and the volition...much of which could be machined on your shaper. You will have to download and install the FREE eDrawings viewer first in order to view the drawings: http://www.solidworks.com . >the machine isnt perfect, the slide has >some wear and scoring-should i just adjust the gib and use it? Yes and No. It depends on just what and how severe the damage is. There are some expensive products that can be used to resurface/ refurbish slides & ways--I'll let Joe W. talk to you about that. >clapper frame has a chunk busted out of it b