This small file contains specific experiences by AMMCO metal shaper (and Delta metal shaper) owners in disassembling their machines. The main AMMCO Metal Shaper file contains much more detail on use, maintenance, and repair of AMMCO metal shapers and the Delta metal shaper models. If you got to this file directly from my HOME PAGE, return there by using your browser's back button. BUT if you came to this file as the result of a web search engine, see more than 70 additional files on my home page Machining and Metalworking at Home http://www.janellestudio.com/metal/ SAFETY WARNING BEWARE: DO NOT ASSUME that any subject matter or procedure or process is safe or correct or appropriate just because it was mentioned in a news/user group or was included in these files or on this site or on any other web site or was published in a magazine or book or video. Working with metals and machinery and chemicals and electrical equipment is inherently dangerous. Wear safety devices and clothing as appropriate. Remove watches, rings, and jewellery -- and secure or remove loose clothing -- before operating any machine. Read, understand and follow the latest operating procedures and safety instructions provided by the manufacturer of your machine or tool or product. If you do not have those most recent official instructions, acquire a copy through the manufacturer before operating or using their product. Where the company no longer exists, use the appropriate news or user group to locate an official copy. Be careful -- original instructions may not meet current safety standards. Updated safety information and operating instructions may also be available through a local club, a local professional in the trade, a local business, or an appropriate government agency. In every case, use your common sense before beginning or taking the next step; and do not proceed if you have any questions or doubts about any procedure, or the safety of any procedure. Follow all laws and codes, and employ certified or licenced professionals as required by those laws or codes. Hazardous tasks beyond your competence or expertise should also be contracted to professionals. Let's be really careful out there. (c) Copyright 2003 - 2008 Machining and Metalworking at Home The form of the collected work in this text file (including editing, additions, and notes) is copyrighted and this file is not to be reproduced by any means, including electronic, without written permission except for strictly personal use. ========================================================================== NOTE TO FILE: this first item was in a file posted to the Files section of Yahoo's Metal_Shapers Group by dreilanderecht 04/29/2002. mailto: Although it is out of chronological order, I think the reader will appreciate seeing John's information first and then carry on to pertinent messages here. ------- Opening up an AMMCO I mentioned in my introduction that my 6 inch AMMCO was showing signs of needing a little tender loving care. So having just completed the machine vice I was making for the Alba, I cleaned up the AMMCO and started work. The first item of concern was the massive backlash on the horizontal feed. This gave the impression that the nut behind the table must be on the point of stripping. I wound the table right out to the left hand side and started having a look to see what was up. The interesting bit came when I found that the backlash actually exceeded a full turn. Since it was certainly not slack in the thrust bearing, this told me that it could hardly be wear in the nut, since a full turn of backlash would imply that the nut was already completely stripped. It has actually been working quite well, so that meant that something else had to be happening. The problem turned out to be the two hex headed screws which secure the nut to the table. These were loose enough to allow the nut to move a bit from side to side.well, just over one twelfth of an inch since that is the pitch of the screw. Tightening them was not so easy since they are hard to get at with a spanner, and naturally of all the different socket sets I could find, I was not able to make up a suitable extension to reach in to match a socket I could find. But I got them tight enough in the finish and this reduced the total backlash to about one eighth of a turn. This seems quite acceptable. The next problem was a bit deeper rooted. The main bull gear bearing had noticeable slop in it. Enough that it is obviously time to do something. So now I had to find out how to get at it. The nonstandard feed apparatus came off the right hand end easily enough, giving access to a ring held on with two grubscrews. This allowed me to see the bearing and the slack. Yes, definitely too much movement there. So next problem is how does one get the other end apart? I could see that the slotted link was going to have to come out. I soon found that it couldn't come out the top, at least not while the ram is still there, and the ram cannot come off until the slotted link is out of the way. So I unbolted the machine from its table and turned it over. This allows access to a pair of rings held on with grubscrews, and a slotted screw on the end of the slotted link. Loosening these allows the pivot pin for the slotted link to be tapped out. The die block can also be unscrewed from the end of the crank. Now the slotted link can be disconnected from the ram and wangled down into the body of the machine out of the way. This allows the ram to be slid out towards the back of the machine. The downfeed need not be removed but must be up to clear the body of the machine. Now we can undo the four screws holding the dovetail slide onto the bull gear. Don't jam the gears to stop it turning since it transpires that the bull gear is made of synthetic resin bonded fibre. That was a surprise to say the least. Still, it has survived a long time now, so it must be strong enough. Especially since it is on a machine that must have had a crash since the slotted link has been repaired. In a way it is reassuring, since I would set out to cut another fibre one without any fear and trembling, while I am not too sure if I could adequately duplicate a steel one. I wonder if the idea was that it was easier to replace the odd bull gear rather than some of the other parts? I found that the dovetail could be held with a crescent spanner enough to allow the four screws to be undone. Then the bull gear shaft can be withdrawn, and after that the bull gear itself. The shaft and the bush were both miked, and the shaft is pretty round but slightly barrel shaped by about three thou in the middle. The bush is worn about thirteen thou bigger in the fore and aft direction at each end. A little bit of scoring shows, but nothing too bad. It would have run a while longer probably, but does not look too much of a problem to replace. By a piece of good fortune, I even have some bronze bushes of the correct outside diameter, although I will have to make up a split bush arrangement and open up the inside to the correct size. I am probably going to make it into two bushes with a small gap between, rather than one long one as original, since my bushes are not long enough to do the whole job in one piece. I will also do something about the barrel shaped wear on the shaft, since if the shaft is able to wobble in the new bearings it will just start the whole thing all over again. Actually in many applications like this, either the shaft or the bushes is relieved in the middle so that the entire bearing takes place at either end. Still, if the replacement lasts as long as the original, it is not going to be my problem to replace it anyway. While it was apart I was able to get a better look at the repair that has been done to the link. It has been broken at about the centre of the front. There is only one break, but it looks like a fragment was missing, so the brazing job has filled a small V (quarter inch or so) on the inside wearing surface. It is not quite as pretty as a new one, but looks sound and has certainly not given me any trouble while I have had the machine. Anyway, it is within the capacity of the Alba to make another one should it ever give trouble. Everything else inside looks fine, so there is no reason why it should not have a long and prosperous life ahead of it. So that is how to get at the innards of the AMMCO if anyone else should ever need to. Note that it is not necessary to remove the table from the front, nor do the gib strip adjusters on the ram need to be undone, although I will check the adjustment when I reassemble it all of course. ------- From: Dave Kochan Date: Mon Nov 12, 2001 4:50 pm Subject: Re: [Metal_Shapers] AMMCO 7" On Mon, 12 Nov 2001 karl.grossx~xxg... wrote: > Timing for this group is perfect! I just picked up an AMMCO 7" shaper > in quite good condition.Two problems 1) no books or manual , and 2) > I'm taking it apart to clean,strip, and repaint and I can't figure > out how to get the "ram?" off. This little machine really intrigues > me and I'm anxious to get it cleaned up and working. Any help with > manuals(I will pay for copy costs) or directions for teardown would > be welcome. thanks, karl Hi, Karl: I too acquired an AMMCO 7" recently. It's a great little machine. Unfortunately, mine is in pieces right now as I am building a new throw length adjustment slider (my original was bent) and rescraping the ram and ways. Fortunately for you, this means that I know how to remove the ram! :^) It's entirely possible that there is a better way to do this, but after studying the machine for quite a while, I couldn't come up with anything better. Here we go: Remove the handle that clamps the ram to the arm. (The handle on top of the machine) Tip the machine on its side. Use some blocks or something so it doesn't get out of control. I had the table off, which helps a bit weight-wise. Loosen the set screws on the two collars that hold the bottom end of the crank arm. The shaft that the bottom of the shaft pivots on should now be free to slide out. I pushed mine out toward the operator's side. You may have to VERY LIGHTLY drive it out with a brass rod. You shouldn't have to whack it too hard. The arm will now drop down far enough that the ram will slide off. You will have to loosen the gib, as you will probably find that the ram is worn in an hourglass shape, or possibly just a taper. Good luck, Dave ------- Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 09:07:20 -0400 From: Alex Barrie Subject: Ammco I just picked up a complete (minus the belt guards) Ammco 7 for about $130 US! It is in great shape, but I still want to take it apart for cleaning etc. How do I take off the head at the end of the ram? I took the locking bolt out and there seems to be something brass on the inside. Any help would be appreciated. Alex 1965 Myford ML7 1992 9 x33 Mill/ Drill War Era Ammco 7 shaper ------ Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 13:45:13 -0400 From: "Dave Audette" Subject: Re: Ammco Alex: If it's like the Southbend there's an adjustment nut on top of the ram behind the head. Under this nut is a foot that's keeping you from pulling the head straight off. Be careful when removing the head because depending on ram position that foot can drop down into the case. Had it happen to a friend who moved a 7" SB. Dave Worcester, Mass www.broncosaurus.net ------- Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 17:50:58 -0000 From: "Art Volz" Subject: Re: Ammco Alex--Dave's right. Beneath the "S-105 Tool Head Clamp Bolt", that you already have removed, is "S-106 Tool Head Clamp Shoe" which is probably made of brass. You'll probably need something sticky on an end of a chop stick or maybe a piece of rubber tubing orally vacuumed to remove it... without it dissappearing into the belly of the beast. It sounds to me as if you're flying VFR on Hi-Test at nite. :-) Before you damage an operating machine in your zealous zest to make it "clean and nice", I strongly suggest that you acquire an operators manual with parts diagrams.[Free by download from the Yahoo Metal_Shapers group] Art (Houston) ------- Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 21:49:07 -0000 From: "dreilanderecht" Subject: Re: Ammco I'll need to look at the manuals when I get home tonight, but I think there is something like David suggests. I certainly recall something about dropping a little brass piece down inside the works. :( regards John ------- Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 19:11:48 -0400 From: Alex Barrie Subject: Re: Re: Ammco Well, I got it apart, the previous owner put the brass shoe in backwards, and it was sort of peened itself into the ram, but with a little patience I got it out. I had to persuade the head out of the ram and then convince the brass shoe to do the same. But I will have to make a new one. No problem, thanks for all the speedy replies, Alex ------- Ammco Disassembly [Metal_Shapers] Posted by: "rdaniel711" rdaniel2x~xxsbcglobal.net Date: Mon Oct 9, 2006 2:23 pm (PDT) I am taking the Ammco apart. The manual in the files doesn't exactly match the parts in mine. How do you get the ram off? What is under/in the ram oil cups? I have the tool head rotating but is there a way to get it off the ram? According to the print there is a brass plug with a steep bevel to allow rotation but the steepness of the bevel makes it difficult to pull the tool head off. Any help appreciated. Rob ------- Re: Ammco Disassembly Posted by: "Art Volz" volzmechatronicx~xxyahoo.com Date: Mon Oct 9, 2006 6:09 pm (PDT) Rob-- Which of the two manuals in "files" are you referring to--the 14-page one dated 10-20-50 or the 20-pager dated 12-17-51, my 10th B'day? Art (Houston) ------- Re: Ammco Disassembly Posted by: "rdaniel711" rdaniel2x~xxsbcglobal.net Date: Mon Oct 9, 2006 10:55 pm (PDT) Art, neither of the manuals you mention show identical parts to my machine. I have gotten most of it apart but would like to remove the ram and I am not sure how. Also, I wonder how to take the toolholder off the ram. Thanks, Rob ------- Re: Ammco Disassembly Posted by: "viajoaquinx~xxaol.com" Date: Mon Oct 9, 2006 11:42 pm (PDT) Rob, I missed your original post so I don't know exactly what you are asking for. Since you indicate that your parts don't match the manual, I assume you have an AMMCO 6 inch shaper that has many similar parts but some that are different than those of the AMMCO 7 inch shaper in the manuals. Either 6 or 7 inch, the only way I know of getting the ram out is to remove the lower pivot of the rocker arm so it will drop clear of the ram. By tool holder I assume you mean the tool head which includes the tool post, clapper and slide. The tool head comes out of the ram by removing the bolt at the top of the ram right behind the degree markings. There is a cylindrical shoe in the hole under the bolt that will also have to be removed in order to allow the tool head to slide out of the ram. Hope this helps, good luck. Roy ------- Re: AMMCO Disassembly Posted by: "Art Volz" volzmechatronicx~xxyahoo.com Date: Mon Oct 9, 2006 11:50 pm (PDT) > > I had downloaded a number of manuals and I made a mistake. The > > shaper is as the one in the manual dated 12-17-51. Rob Rob-- Good. The manual's URL for downloading is at LINKS for those who are interested in following this discussion. It is a large file and takes time for those without high speed DSL: download the smaller gray scale file. I've posted your email to me and my reply (this) to Metal_Shapers. Art ------- Re: AMMCO Disassembly Posted by: "Art Volz" volzmechatronicx~xxyahoo.com Date: Tue Oct 10, 2006 12:56 am (PDT) Rob-- Using the 16.91Mb gray scale shaper instruction manual downloaded via LINKS (dtd 12-17-51): A. Removing the S-101 Tool Head Holder from Ram. (Fig. 20, PDF page 13 of 20)-- 1. Remove the S-105 Bolt from top of ram 2. Remove S-106 shoe. Try several methods such as sticky bubble gum on a screw driver blade or suction applied via a rubber tube. If you can't get the shoe out by these or similar methods replace the bolt and remove the ram first from the column. B. Removing the ram. (Fig. 20, PDF page 13 of 20 AND Fig. 23, PDF page 14 of 20)-- 1. Loosen gib screws 2. Move ram all the way to the rear 3. Remove S-105 Ram Handle & S-207 Washer 4. Check to see if you can rotate S-201 Ram Block + attached S-206 stud down and free from slot in top of ram. If you can, then slide ram out of front of slideway. Be sure you catch the gib and mark it so that you can re-insert it with the SAME orientation. (If you cannot free the ram, re-attach the ram handle and washer and then return to Step 2 & move the ram all the way to the front, and then repeat Steps 3 & 4.) 5. If still unable to rotate the ram block and stud out of the ram's slot, then the S-2024 Shaft upon which the S-202 Rocker Arm pivots will need to be drifted out of the column. Check bottom of rocker arm first to insure that someone hasn't put a retaining set screw in the bottom end of the rocker arm. Now the ram handle should be removed and the rocker arm lowered releasing the ram for removal. C. Removing the Tool Head Holder. 1. With the ram removed, remove the S-105 Bolt 2. Turn ram over and the shoe should drop out by gravity. If not, give the ram some reasonable whacks with a mallet until it does. D. On re-assembly, be sure that the links attaching the rocker arm to the ram block are oriented to the rear as illustrated so that the ram is PULLED during ramming and NOT PUSHED. Art ------- Re: AMMCO Disassembly Posted by: "rdaniel711" rdaniel2x~xxsbcglobal.net Date: Tue Oct 10, 2006 1:53 pm (PDT) Hi Art, I can't get the ram off on the upper side. I checked the bottom and the collars(S20-27) have set screws as does the rocker arm. I have soaked the collars and shaft with penetrating oil but the collars don't move on the shaft(S20-24). I am reluctant to try to drive the shaft out for fear of breaking the casting. I am contemplating removing metal at the rear underside of the ram to allow removal from the top without drving out the shaft(S20-24). It looks like if I removed about 0.250" from the rear underside of the ram that I could slide the ram off the front. Your thoughts? Thanks, Rob [and in a follow-up message] I finally got the pin out with my hydraulic press. Thanks for your input. Next question: what is in/under the oil caps for lubricating the ram? Cotton? Felt? What do you recommend for grease for the bull gear and bevel gears? ------- Re: AMMCO Disassembly Posted by: "Art Volz" volzmechatronicx~xxyahoo.com Date: Tue Oct 10, 2006 7:21 pm (PDT) Rob-- There shouldn't be anything under your Gits ram oilers other than oil. You personally, oil-can in hand, have to keep them filled before, DURING, and after operation. For lubrication instructions, refer to "Fig. 12 Lubrication Chart" in the 12-17-51 manual. As you can see, the ONLY lubricant noted is Soconony Vacuum Gargoyle "Vactra" Heavy Medium. Soconony was absorbed by Mobil a long time ago. Their Vactra Heavy Medium is viscosity grade ISO 68 (equivalent to SAE 20). You can use SAE 20 motor oil, either detergent or non-detergent, as the oil once used is gravity drained as waste oil and is not recirculated. Straight SAE 20 motor oil is much cheaper than Mobil Vactra No 2 (ISO 68) and the so- called sticky clinging ingredient is no longer in it...so why pay for it. However, if you want to use the expensive spread, buy a gallon of Mobil Vactra No. 20 Way Lube from http://www.mcmaster.com. It's their number 2158K21 at &16.32 + S&H for 1 gallon. DON'T use grease on the bull wheel and pinion--Use Vactra No. 2 or SAE 20. Art (Houston) ------- Re: AMMCO Disassembly Posted by: "rdaniel711" rdaniel2x~xxsbcglobal.net Date: Tue Oct 10, 2006 9:23 pm (PDT) Hi Art: Thanks for the info and help. It appears that all of the capped oilers have some sort of fibrous material inside. The material sort of looks like a wick or felt material. I will just remove it. The bevel gears that elevate the table are located where limited quantities of oil will get to them. The oiler seems to supply oil only to the shaft of the table elevating crank. Do you suggest grease on the bevel gears? The machine has had very little use. It is painted in a blue metallic color with sort of a hammertone type finish. I have rebuilt several machines and it looks like this is the original finish. As to Vactra, the composition was changed a few years ago but the printing industry (largest user) had a fit as the removal of the tackifiers made the new formula useless to them. If you want the old type Vactra you must order Vaculene as it has the tackifiers and it comes in a couple viscosities. Rob ------- Re: AMMCO Disassembly Posted by: "Art Volz" volzmechatronicx~xxyahoo.com Date: Tue Oct 10, 2006 10:11 pm (PDT) Rob-- (see below) What you want the oilers on the ram to do is to keep the sliding surfaces wet. With fibrous material in the oil holes, I don't know that sufficient oil will flow. Maybe someone, along the way, added the "wicks" because the oil was flowing faster than he wanted to oil with his hand held oil can. My Lewis doesn't have any wicks. Instead my Lewis has me...and my oil can. > The bevel gears that elevate the table are located where limited > quantities of oil will get to them. The oiler seems to supply oil > only to the shaft of the table elevating crank. Do you suggest > grease on the bevel gears? Those gears see very little use during operation. Give them a shot of SAE 20 before operating. What does the Lubrication Chart recommend? If you just gotta use grease don't invest in anything fancy, just use vasoline (from off of your nite stand) applied with a Q-tip, rendered month-old ear wax, Crisco, mayonnaise spurted directly from it's plastic squeeze bottle, or non-vulcanized sperm whale blubber. I didn't want to rehash the Vactra-2/Vacuolene/SAE-20 discussion here of last July. For those that wanna read all about it start at my Message #14187. I just use SAE-20 or SAE-30 or even (horrors & may my immortal soul burn in hell) whatever I have in quart bottles, usually SAE 5W30 non-deterg. The latter works just fine on my old 1940's/1950's machines. My Logan c. 1940 lathe manual doesn't even designate the type oil lubricant to use --just "oil"-- and everyone then knew that "oil" meant whatever the car was using. Those Logan engineers weren't space scientists, just very practical folks who knew what their customers would do anyway, and so that's how they designed their machines. It was a variation of General MacArthur's (sp?) dictum to not have rules and regulations that the soldiers' weren't going to obey anyway. (There's an interesting note at the Armalite site on cleaning and oiling M16's. Seems that in most parts of the world they ain't got the fancy and expensive stuff our troops have. Lube oil is mostly vegetable cooking oil and cleaning fluid, if not just water or water-buffalo urine, is automatic transmission fluid. I'll post the links here...for anyone from outta the field...with a dirty M-16. Joe W. will get a kick outta this.) ------- AMMCO Bull Gear Removal advice needed. [Metal_Shapers] Posted by: "Don Marsh" radio1x~xxtech-center.com Date: Fri Sep 28, 2007 2:06 pm ((PDT)) I have a older AMMCO Shaper, with cable advance mechanism. I have it disassembled, for cleaning, to the point that the bull gear and the gear that drives the bull gear are the only parts left in the body. Does anyone know if the bearing bushings for the drive gear shaft has grooves cut in it as do the bearings for the ram block and the rocker arm? (These grooves were packed full of hardened deposits.) If so, then I will need to remove the pinion gear to clean the crud out of the grooves. Is the pinion gear held on the shaft with a taper pin as shown in the Delta/Milwaukee Shaper manual, fig. 23? I would like to remove the bull gear so that I can clean it and the inside of the shaper body.. There are two pins that are preventing me from removing the crank so that I can pull the bull gear and shaft out. Can someone tell me if the two pins that are inserted in the bull gear are a set in undersized holes? If so, what is the best way to remove these two pins without damaging the pins? If I remove these two pins and damage them, does anyone know the O.D. of the pins and the I.D. of the holes the pins are in so that I can make replacements? That part of the rocker arm that the shoe moves in has been worn oversize, due to the oil galleys in the shoe being plugged with deposits. The shoe has been worn undersized as well. Can anyone tell me if the shoe is a normal bronze or brass metal? I am considering making a replacement from 660 bearing bronze. Would this be ok? Since I have my AMMCO disassembled, I am considering adding 4 more oil holes for oilers to provide additional oil points for the ram ways. I have had very little experience drilling cast iron of any kind. How difficult is it to drill cast iron on a drill press accurately? radio-chaser ------- Re: AMMCO Bull Gear Removal advice needed. Posted by: "Geoff Kingma" gkingmax~xxinterlog.com Date: Fri Sep 28, 2007 4:35 pm ((PDT)) Hi. It has been a few years since I stripped and rebuilt my 1941 6" unit - yours is even older, but here goes: Bushings on drive gear shaft: I replaced all the bushings on my machine -- they are still available from Boston gear. The only one I cut oil grooves in was the one for the bull gear. I was advised by Canadian bearings that it wasn't necessary on the smaller diameter bushings. On one of the bushing sets in the rocker to ram coupling I used oilite but still drilled the holes. Bull gear removal: On my machine the two pins are to prevent the crank from moving too far so they didn't need to be removed. To remove the bull gear, loosen/remove the 4 capscrews in the crank clamp and remove the gear through the top or bottom. Then slide the shaft out through the door opening. There were a few grooves in mine that made it difficult to get it out. Pinion gear: Yes, it is held in place by a taper pin. Rocker arm shoe. I made a new one from 660 bronze and scraped the inside of the rocker arm to get it to a uniform width. I built the shoe to a 0.001" clearance (slow moving shafts under 400rpm - 0.001" clearance per inch of diameter). Oilers: I added the 4 extra ones per the later models as the ram guide was 0.012" wider at the front than the back. After remachining the ram and mating body/frame part on a friend's mill, I mounted the body onto the table of my drill press (just made it) as the only mill I had at the time was a Taig. I think I used a 1/4" 2 flute center cutting end mill first to get a flat spot and then I drilled the correct hole -- wasn't easy. Good luck with your project. And remember to use Way oil (SAE20 or ISO68) and not motor oil -- that's why there is all that crud in there. Geoff ------- Re: AMMCO Bull Gear Removal advice needed. Posted by: "radio-chaser" radio1x~xxtech-center.com smiling_man_us Date: Wed Oct 3, 2007 10:45 pm ((PDT)) Geoff: Thank you for the response. I had already removed the 4 hex head cap screws from the bull gear before asking for advise. I also have used a plastic head mallet and tapped on the shaft, tapped on the bull gear (gently), tapped on the crank, etc. All in an attempt to loosen it. It is still in there. It isn't even loosened up at all. I assumed that the crank had to be removed to get the bull gear out. Any other suggestions would be appreciated. radio-chaser ------- Re: AMMCO Bull Gear Removal advice needed. Posted by: "viajoaquinx~xxaol.com" Date: Wed Oct 3, 2007 11:04 pm ((PDT)) If you thought that the crank pin had to be removed before the bull gear would come out, you were likely trying to remove it in the wrong direction. The bull gear is a tight fit on the shaft and comes off toward the bushing side of the shaper. In other words, the shaft comes out through the round access hole on the side of the housing and once removed, the bull gear is pulled out through the top. BakoRoy -------