This is just one of some 80 files about machining and metalworking and useful workshop subjects that can be read at: http://www.janellestudio.com/metal/index.html ------------------------------------------------------------------ Here find many tips on repairing or operating an Atlas metal shaper. The Atlas 7" metal shaper is one of the most practical small shapers suitable for home workshops. Also please read the other metal shaper files here for many more tips that can be adapted for use with the Atlas. This metal shaper was also sold by Sears under the Craftsman name, and in the United Kingdom as the Acorn brand. If you got to this file directly from my HOME PAGE, return there by using your browser's back button. BUT if you came to this file as the result of a web search engine, see many additional files on my home page Machining and Metalworking at Home http://www.janellestudio.com/metal/index.html SAFETY WARNING BEWARE: DO NOT ASSUME that any subject matter or procedure or process is safe or correct or appropriate just because it was mentioned in a news/user group or was included in these files or on this site or on any other web site or was published in a magazine or book or video. Working with metals and machinery and chemicals and electrical equipment is inherently dangerous. Wear safety devices and clothing as appropriate. Remove watches, rings, and jewellery -- and secure or remove loose clothing -- before operating any machine. Read, understand and follow the latest operating procedures and safety instructions provided by the manufacturer of your machine or tool or product. If you do not have those most recent official instructions, acquire a copy through the manufacturer before operating or using their product. Where the company no longer exists, use the appropriate news or user group to locate an official copy. Be careful -- original instructions may not meet current safety standards. Updated safety information and operating instructions may also be available through a local club, a local professional in the trade, a local business, or an appropriate government agency. In every case, use your common sense before beginning or taking the next step; and do not proceed if you have any questions or doubts about any procedure, or the safety of any procedure. Follow all laws and codes, and employ certified or licenced professionals as required by those laws or codes. Hazardous tasks beyond your competence or expertise should also be contracted to professionals. Let's be really careful out there. (c) Copyright 2003 - 2016 Machining and Metalworking at Home The form of the collected work in this text file (including editing, additions, and notes) is copyrighted and this file is not to be reproduced by any means, including electronic, without written permission except for strictly personal use. ========================================================================== Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 20:06:35 -0000 From: Harry.Grahamx~xxdas.state.oh.us Subject: shaper gear I've started to rebuild my shaper and just discovered I need to replace the gear inside the Feed and Ratchet Gear Case, PN S7-81, which is no longer available from Atlas. Anyone been able to use a commercially available gear for this? Anyone have an OEM gear they would part with? Thanks! Harry ------- Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 12:26:46 -0800 From: "Ivan Vegvary" Subject: RE: shaper gear I'm facing the same problem. The gears are 2.5" diameter pitch circle. 40 teeth, 16 pitch. I got two matching gears from the local bearing supply house. They are Martin brand. The replacement gears come with a hub that will have to be machined off, and the gear will also need to be faced, because they are slightly thicker. While you might be able to find a 5/8" bore gear, mine are 1/2" and will need to be bored to 5/8". Additionally, the lower gear will have to have a slot assembly attached to it for the slotted nut and feed arm. Unfortunately, I could not find a 'gear stock' so this item can be made as one piece. Gears of finer pitch come in six inch lengths of 'gear stock' so you can just whack off what you need. I will soon have a CAD drawing ready for the lower gear. My existing gear is still suitable for measurements, however it lacks about a dozen teeth. Write if questions Ivan Vegvary Atlas 7B owner ------- Date: Mon, 03 Sep 2001 08:36:58 -0400 From: Ronald Thibault Subject: Re: Re: Atlas shaper... At 04:56 PM 8/21/01 -0400, you wrote: >While I've been in the trade for 20 years, I don't have a whole lot of >knowledge about shapers. When I was starting out, they had already taken a >"back seat" to milling. So, learning this little machine is going to be an >awful lot of fun! After going over it (cleaning and lubricating all the >gibs and lead screws, adjusting it, etc.), I ground up a tool and let it >plane a block of steel. Wow, what a finish! This sure is a cute little >thing!Thanks again, Michael! Best regards, Rich Rich; check out Lindsay Publications http://www.lindsaybks.com/ They sell several books that might help you. Ron Thibault North Augusta, SC USA Builder Miinie #2 Captain R/C Combat Ship USS Arizona http://pages.prodigy.net/thibaultr/ ------- Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2001 23:59:18 -0500 From: "jerdal" Subject: Re: advice on atlas mill and shaper Stuff to look for? Well, a relative of mine just recently sold a complete Atlas mill for about $500, so the $1000 may be high. I was NOT the buyer, it was someone unrelated, which I could have wished was not the case! I do have an Atlas shaper, for which I gave $150 in good but dirty condition with almost all parts except the vise and some guards. It came on a nice heavy welded metal stand. Items to look out for: The shaper MUST have the "foot" that runs on a little flat track and holds up the table. The early ones do not have that, and they flex down so that they do not do as good a flat surface. Try to get the real Atlas vise, it is handy. I got a cheap POS vise with mine, and the vise got tossed right away, not square, no good, etc. Look for cracks in the castings, they are a killer unless you are dedicated to getting it going. See it run, and check that it will automatically index the crosslide both ways as it runs. There are a lot of unobtainable parts in the index mechanism, which you would have to make. Listen for big clunks as it reciprocates. They indicate loose or worn sliding blocks, and will mean you will tear it down for repairs eventually. Good negotiating point, loud noises are unarguable. Go to www.lathes.co.uk and look up Atlas shapers. Get to know what comes with a complete one, since shapers are odd-looking, and may not look incomplete when they are. I am missing the rear oil tray and both guards on mine, but I don't care particularly. I did make ram way wipers to replace the missing ones on mine. Check if the clapper box (the toolholder on front of ram) is reasonably tight. If not, you will have problems with chatter, and won't be happy until that is fixed/replaced. If it won't move side-to-side but will twist a little when flipped up horizontal, you can fix that, but you will need a taper pin reamer, costs about $20. Thats all I can think of right now, I am sure I left out plenty of obvious ones. Jerry ------- Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 14:19:11 -0000 From: "al_messer" Subject: Re: new shaper owner -- In Metal_Shapersx~xxy..., "tew138" wrote: > Congratulations, Don. That's a nice looking and more importantly, > very complete shaper! > I'm trying to re-assemble an early Atlas shaper and I decided not to > use the factory switch. First, to answer your question, yes the wire > does run thru that hole in the back of the base (it looks like it has > a pipe thread tapped there) and then it runs between the bull gear > and the Frame. There were only 2 wires in the conduit so I assume it > was the hot wire going to and from the switch. But the reason I > decided not to use the factory switch is that you have to pull the > bull gear to remove the switch (!). Maybe someone who's got skinnier > fingers than me can get in there, but there ain't much room. I just > knew if I used that original switch, it'd break one week after I put > the thing back together. > I would think the factory had to have an alternate location for the > switch since in the catalog they said 3 phase motors could be > supplied. My guess is the 3 phase switch would be too big to fit in > that location. > Anyway, I'm planning to put the switch on the side of my wooden stand > so I can get to it if it breaks. Have fun! Tom W. When I had to replace the internal cable on my Atlas, the switch came out to the side and I fished a new cable through with a fish tape. Can't see why the bull gear must be removed to replace the switch. ------- Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 15:29:02 -0000 From: "tew138" Subject: Need Belt Sizes for Atlas Well, the basket case shaper was under power last night. No chips yet since I need to make some parts to bolt on the table. Oh there's also the missing S7-79 rods and bushings, and the lady from Clausing never wrote back to tell me the washer thickness (I guess I've got a ways to go here). But the ram was moving! I'm not sure what I was expecting, but even on the slow speed the ram moved surprisingly fast (to me). I had some link belts sitting around so that's what I used. But my link belts must be too wide because they sit on top of the pulley and scrape against the left belt cover (motor to countershaft). Can someone measure or read a number off their belts? It was probably due to the link belts, but even with the tension lever in the "off" position there was enough drag to move the ram. Having the right size belts would probably eliminate this? Hmmm, so Art was able to remove the switch without messing with the bull gear. Well that's good to know. I removed the nut holding the switch and tried to push it inward but the contacts in the back kept hitting the bull gear. I couldn't remove the wires cause I couldn't get the needle nose pliers back there to pull them out. I messed with it for a while. Sorry for doubting but, Art did you actually remove the switch or do you mean it looks like you could? I haven't added the separate switch on the stand yet. If I could use the original switch. Thanks, Tom ------- Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 22:28:44 -0000 From: "Art Volz" Subject: Re: Need Belt Sizes for Atlas -- In Metal_Shapersx~xxy..., "tew138" wrote: > Well, the basket case shaper was under power last night. No chips > yet since I need to make some parts to bolt on the table. Oh > there's also the missing S7-79 rods and bushings, Tew-Tew-- Looking at the drawing of the ratchet actuator rod that you're missing: that's a simple part to make with off-the-shelf hardware store steel plate--1/8-inch thick to start. Now for the bushings: these are here becasuse Atlas engineers didn't know about Nylock style BOLTS (NOT nuts) when they over-designed their shaper. The problem was that the bolts would unscrew during operation if slightly thicker bushings weren't used on which the rod could pivot freely because the screws only held the bushings tightly against the threaded walls of the case and housing. I had a similar problem on my Lewis. Instead of using any bushings, I took proper sized SS bolts, drilled a small hole thru the threads, pushed a piece of threaded NYLON taken from a NYLON 6-32TPI screw thru that hole, trimmed both sides, and used it to hold my "rod" and with the nylon insert precluding it from being "unscrewed". It appears that this could be done on your "basket case" as well, with the holes thru both ends of the rod a smaller ID to accommodate, without any bushings, the new bolt with nylon insert. You may have to experiment with running washers on both side of the rod at these pivot points to get the "right" rod thickness for proper operation. > and the lady from Clausing never wrote back to tell me the washer > thickness (I guess I've got a ways to go here). Use a field expedient for now: get a bronze washer that will fit and about 1/8-inch thick to start: make it thicker or thinner as necessary...as you figure out by test, experiment, and observation. Be persistant...and nice...with our Atlas lady. I always got what I asked for. :-) > But the ram was moving! I'm not sure what I was expecting, but even > on the slow speed the ram moved surprisingly fast (to me). Ram speed is adjusted to match required cutting speed, usually for HSS tooling, and specific for the type material being cut. How many strokes per minute seemed "exiting" to you Tew? > I had some link belts sitting around so that's what I used. But my > link belts must be too wide because they sit on top of the pulley and > scrape against the left belt cover (motor to countershaft). Can > someone measure or read a number off their belts? The two belts in question--L3-126 Motor Belt and S7-126 Crankshaft to Pinion Belt have no further size stated. They are probably 1/2, but may be smaller. Have you tried, just for width, both 3L and 4L standard V-belts? In Msg 203 and 204, here (use Msg 203 to search), both Joe G. and I addressed Atlas belts. If Nathan ever found out from Jolene, as I suggested he do, he never posted that info at "Files", which I also suggested that he do. Thanx Nathan! > It was probably due to the link belts, but even with the tension > lever in the "off" position there was enough drag to move the ram. > Having the right size belts would probably eliminate this? Maybe...maybe not. The linked belts have a lot of extended grab area, however. > Hmmm, so Art was able to remove the switch without messing > with the bull gear. Well that's good to know. Tew, if you re-read my msg, you will see that I only answered your question about WHERE the S7-67 conduit was affixed, NOT how it was done. Looking at the shaper drawings, I would have assembled the shaper (if I had been the Atlas' manufacturing engineer at their Kalamazoo manufactuing plant), by FIRST installing the conduit with switch and THEN the bull gear stuff. Machines...just like cars...are designed for manufacture and assembly and NOT for repair. Looks like Atlas did that too. >I removed the nut holding the switch and tried to push it inward >but the contacts in the back kept hitting the bull gear. Huh? Again, looking at the drawings, I don't think that was (thinking in reverse) the way that Atlas assembled the switch and the conduit and then installed them into the shaper. Here's the way I think they did it BEFORE any of the bull geary innards were installed. First they assembled the switch to the conduit. Then they pushed the threaded switch shaft thru the switch plate and tightened down the nut. then they inserted the conduit thru the switch oriface in the side of the shaper column and then screwed in the two screws holding the switch plate in place. Then they went inside and affixed the conduit to the inner wall of the column using the two conduit clips in the two holes provided as I stated in a previous message. The ends of the conduit went out the back oriface of the column and mated to the motor. THEN the bull geary stuff was put in. I don't know...does that make any sense? If you try to do as you did, the switch will hit the installed bull gear every time. You are, of course, using the identical 41-44A switch that Atlas used, aren't you? It DOESN'T have any contacts in the rear--they're on top of the switch housing and are insulated with 423-001 insulator. If your switch has contacts in the rear STOP IMMEDIATELY AND PULL THE PLUG SINCE YOUR MACHINE HAS A LIFE THREATENING DANGEROUS AND WRONG SWITCH!! DO NOT OPERATE!!! That all said...the best, and safest solution, is to install a separate industrial standard switch, magnetic switch preferred, off of the shaper proper, perhaps at the front of the cabinet/stand to which the shaper will be mounted. If you like the looks of the old switch mounted on the side, then leave it...just don't give it any juice: bypass it entirely. > I couldn't remove the wires cause I couldn't > get the needle nose pliers back there to pull them out. I messed > with it for a while. Sorry for doubting but, Art did you actually > remove the switch or do you mean it looks like you could? As I have already stated, I didn't ever say "how-to-do-it", just where it was. > I haven't added the separate switch on the stand yet. > If I could use the original switch... Use a NEW industrial standard magnetic starting switch for SAFETY. When the juice goes off...and you stick your arm into...the bailer...and then the juice returns...your arm won't then be on the floor...like so much sliced salami. Once disconnected from power, a magnetic switch must be manually switched on to restart. They're expensive...Grizzly has some of the cheapest ones...but how much is an arm...or a hand...worth??? Or maybe a hole in the forehead??? > Thanks, > Tom Art (Houston) ------- Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 04:47:14 -0000 From: "dkinzer2000" Subject: Atlas oil fillers My newly acquired Atlas 7B had one damaged flip-top oil filler. I found that Grainger has the 1/4" size that will work (p/n 1U860) but they are zinc plated steel. The ones in the Atlas look like they are brass. If I can't find a source for the brass ones, I'll probably just use the Grainger part. FYI Grainger also has the spring loaded ball valve oil fillers. The p/n for the 1/4" size is 1U866. Don Kinzer Portland, OR ------- Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 07:03:26 -0000 From: "Art Volz" Subject: Re: Atlas oil fillers Don-- ENCO also offers several versions...all plated. The major US supplier of these oil fillers is Gits: http://www.gitsmfg.com . Click onto their catalog at top of their home page to download a copy of their current catalog in PDF format-- it is a long 8.6Mb download, but they've got more different styles of oilers, greasers, whatever, than you can shake a Big Mc-Fatter at...even if you're "dining out" on several as you wait to gets your Gits-alog. It's worth waiting for--download it to ZIP so you can peruse it often. But then, you can just call your local Graingers, ID yourself as Big Boy himself of the XYZ Corp, and that you'll send your driver over to pick up a few of those oilers...as you drive your SUV back to your garage-shop, treat yourself to a Big Mc-Fatter and some Slippery Fries on the way back. Can't have too much lube. Art ------- Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 15:07:12 -0000 From: "tew138" Subject: Power Switch (Was Re: Need Belt Sizes for Atlas)-You're Right! Thanks Anthony, you're right. I was able to pull the switch by removing the aluminum cover. That switch is smaller than I thought. When I was looking at Don K's photos I noticed there was a rectangular hole where the switch goes but I didn't think more of it. But it makes sense the guys who built it also thought about the guys who had to fix it. Now an electrical question: what gage wire should I use for a 1/2 HP motor (7-1/2 amps on the motor plate)? The screw on the factory switch is small! Like a #6 pan head. It looks like the original wire was about a 18 gage. The small size of this switch makes me think I should use an external switch again. Thanks, Tom ------- Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 15:45:03 -0000 From: "al_messer" Subject: Power Switch (Was Re: Need Belt Sizes for Atlas)-You're Right! Tom, You're worrying over something you shouldn't. Just call your nearest electric motor shop and ask the guy who runs it as to what size you should use. It would be wise to buy a piece of something that is both "armoured" and "oil proof". That little toggle switch that came with the Atlas has enough muscle for the amount of current you are pulling. Al Messer ------- Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 12:03:01 -0600 From: "Clint D" Subject: Re: Atlas Paint Color [SHAPER GROUP] December 12, 2002 dkinzer2000 wrote: >> I'm anticipating painting my 7B someday and am wondering what the original color was. Underneath the badge on the side access cover the paint looks like a dark gray, similar to the color of the first picture in the Atlas folder in the Photos area but a bit darker, I think. I've also thought about painting it a more fanciful color - the blue SB on the home page of the group is appealing. I suppose that a darker color would also have the advantage of not showing the oil as much. Yes, I know that some of you seem to have something against good looking machines. I prefer to have mine in good working order AND good looking. What say ye, group? Don Kinzer Portland, OR << Don: It is your machine, do what appeals to you. I painted one of my SB OLD FORD BLUE and it turned out nice. The other SB I am painting a Dark Hammered Gray, looks real good Clint ------- Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 13:16:44 -0500 From: "Dave Audette" Subject: Re: Atlas Paint Color Ooooh Don, you've gone and done it now. A guy can get crucified here for bringing that up. I think the problem is that so few people take the time to do a good job. a lot of guys paint machines with the intention of hiding something or getting a better price and the quality of their work is subpar. To do a proper job you really need to disassemble the machine and many people don't want to do that. I think we've all seen pictures on Ebay of the Machine That Joe Painted. Unfortunately it's a common Ebay practice and some guys really screw up an otherwise ok machine by doing it. Having said that I'm in favor of doing it to a machine you intend to keep. It's a great chance to go through the whole machine and find any marginal parts as well as really learning a lot about how it's built and how it works. You learn a lot by disassembling & reassembling a machine, provided you have no leftover or "unneeded" parts when you're done. It will look a whole lot better and you'll really enjoy the project. do yourself a favor and take a lot of photos so that you'll have an aid when it comes time to put it all back together. Dave Worcester, Mass www.broncosaurus.net (who just sold his 7" Rhodes & Logan machines to buy the Southbend he's always wanted and finally gets tomorrow) ------- Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 18:54:31 -0000 From: "dkinzer2000 " Subject: Re: Atlas Paint Color I completely disassembled the shaper yesterday, parts are in the tank soaking now. I plan to refurbish it and put it back as close to "as new" as I can. On a side note, I bought a replacement for the S7-32 feed nut from a guy on eBay that claims to make them to the original specification. The seller's ID is hillsgun. He was starting the auctions at $20 (I was, fortunately, the only bidder) then he has upped the price to $30 and it's now back to $20 with a "buy it now" price of $30. I haven't reassembled the table using the new nut yet but it is a nice snug fit on the feed screw; the old one was woefully sloppy. I got the print for the S7-75A pawl from Clausing and plan to make one - it's a fairly simple design. The print calls for a 135 degree vee to be cut in the larger diameter of the part but the one in my shaper has a radiused cutout like the depiction in the parts list PDF. It would seem that the radiused cut would yield sharper "teeth" to engage the teeth of the S7-81 gear. I think that I'll first attempt the radiused cutout and see how that works, resorting to the vee if it doesn't. Don Kinzer Portland, OR ------- Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 21:01:58 -0000 From: "Art Volz " Subject: Re: Atlas Paint Color: Express Your Inner Self!! Don--It's your machine--go the max. Express that inner self that wants to be free. An Atlas should only be painted in gloss fuschia and accented with a darker mauve. You won't be happy with anything else. (BTW, fushia and gray was a popular mid-'50's color-combo.) Although not available in epoxy or a hammertone, you should be able to blend your own flavor quite readily if you use Pantone color swatches, under true day lighting conditions, to aid in mixing. I probably will paint most of my machines (except, of course, my Atlas 1020 drill press)--part by part and not all at once--either the bluish- silver R'Oleum hammered finish or the green one, although the latter is pretty dark. Now if they only made a royal purple hammered enamel...! Anyone who paints a machine gray is color blind, just got outta prison (maybe the brig on the USS Missouri), or is a coward who's afraid that his friends would think that he'd be getting uppity and out of line. Sears clerks, however, like everything gray: their car, their shoes, their ties, the collars on their white shirts, their dogs, their... :-) PS: My W.F. & John Barnes 4-1/2 velocipede lathe is being done--piece by piece--in gloss black epoxy to match, in color, its original Japanned black. Art (In Houston...on a grey, gray rainy afternoon.) ------- Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 04:54:49 -0000 From: "Art Volz " Subject: Re: Atlas 7B Bearing Preload Adjustment In Metal_Shapersx~xxyahoogroups.com, "dkinzer2000" wrote: > I'm getting ready to reassemble my shaper. I read the bearing > adjustment procedure in the Atlas Shaper Bulletin (in the Files > section). They specify running the machine for an hour to warm it up > before adjusting the preload by "feel". I'm more accustomed to > setting bearing preload (automotive applications) by using a spring > scale to measure the torque required to turn a shaft. Does anyone > have any advice regarding the specified procedure or any alternate > procedures? Thanks. Don Kinzer Portland, OR Don--The procedures for adjusting the Timken bearings found on page 4 of the Atlas bulletin (April 1953 edition)that you referred to in "Files" are exactly the same, and on the same page, as are found in the June 1959 edition of that bulletin that I purchased directly from Clausing-Industrial in the late 1980's: this probably constituted their "final word". Also on the same page 4 are ram speeds attainable with a 1740 RPM motor by belt repositioning on the motor pulley. The highest ram speed attainable is 187 feet per minute which exceeds the recommended highest cutting speed for any of the listed materials. I don't know what speeds, in RPM, that would equate to for either the pinion gear shaft bearings or the bull gear bearing itself, but any such RPMs achieved should be relatively low when compared with the capabilities of the Timken bearings used. The RPMs are probably of low enough speed that the hand adjustment of the bearing preloads, without special tools, is readily achievable. My parts manual does not indicate a Timken parts number for these bearings--only the Atlas parts number is denoted. Do your bearings have a Timken part number which can still be found in Timken catalog listings? If they are Timkin bearings, as the Atlas manual states, Timkin may be able to provide you with a more modern method of adjusting their bearings, in this 1950's Atlas machine, for use at the before mentioned speeds. If you increase the ram speeds, to the minimum levels required if using carbide or higher- tech non-HSS cutters, all bets are off. Art (Houston) ------- Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 00:13:23 -0000 From: "al_messer " Subject: Atlas B Model wiring Steve: My "A" Model had the electric cable from the rear of the machine run through a piece of flexible armored cable up to the switch and was held in place by a couple of clamps to keep it out of the bull wheel. When I eventually had to replace it, I substituted a short piece of oil proof plastic insulated flex cable and it gave me no problems. Wish I had it back!! ------- Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 23:28:03 -0000 From: "shapeaholic " Subject: Re: Metal selection ? --- In Metal_Shapersx~xxyahoogroups.com, "guidos4 <"jmmeredithx~xxg...>" wrote: > I am rebuilding a Atlas 7B, and I need to make a new sliding block > (S7-19)which is worn bad(galled). What material should use, tool > steel,cast iron, CRS or what? > Since I am making this part from sratch, should I up grade the > original design buy putting a bearing in for the pin? Any ideas would > be welcomed. Thanks Monte Monte: With deference to the others who replied, I have done this same repair twice in the past, on both of the Atlas shapers that I have owned. The ways in my link arm were not worn to the extent of needing any more than a little scraping at the extreme ends. I bought a slice of cast iron bearing material and machined it to shape on the shaper itself. I then set it up carefully in the lathe and drilled the hole and reamed to 3/4". I left the block a little oversize (maybe .002)and hand scraped to size as best I could with the knowledge I had at the time. A little patience yeilded a very small clearance. This "project took all of two evenings and the difference in the machine was dramatic. I don't think that the majority of us HSM'ers would use our shapers enough to wear them out the second time. :-)) Regards Pete ------- Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2002 20:14:46 -0000 From: "dkinzer2000 " Subject: Pictures of my Atlas Before and after renovation: http://www.kinzers.com/don/MachineTools/Atlas_7B_Shaper The paint is XO-Rust XO-8 Blue purchased at a Tru-Value Hardware. I suspect that it's similar to Rustoleum's basic blue. The paint was brushed on over a single XO-Rust primer coat. I was hoping to use blue Hammerite which could have been put on without primer but I couldn't find it close by. The non-painted surfaces were worked over with a rotary wire brush, steel wool and/or very fine abrasive paper and then re-oiled. I usually start by dipping the steel wool in mineral spirits. After wiping that off, I dip the steel wool in machine oil and go at it some more. I some places the "stain" is just too deep to be removed but much of it shines right up. There were a few places on the ways where nicks and dings had raised surfaces. The worst were first filed to reduce the profile and then were stoned away. I also installed a grounded power cord. The ground lead is connected to the motor's case. ------- Date: Thu, 09 Jan 2003 18:50:34 -0000 From: "Art Volz " Subject: Atlas Shaper Doors: An Answer & A Question On the wall in my "Halle of the Departed Wazrriors", I have the "shield" of a such a warrior, an early model Atlas shaper. My access door ("cover") is curved inward at the top and is marked as part "S7-89" on the back. {ANSWER} In the "Atlas Repair Parts List for Atlas 7" Metal Shaper, Catalog No. 7B" (Shaper Bulletin S7B-4, June 1959), on page 8 the "Frame Parts List", this access door ("cover"), part "S7-89A", appears to be flat vertically and without any inward curve at the top. QUESTION: Is the "S7-89A" door curved inward or is it flat? (If it's flat...I'm going to have to acquire another door...for my burgeoning collection of slain warriors' shields. Skippidy-dippidy-doo!) Art (Houston) ------- Date: Sat, 11 Jan 2003 06:40:36 -0000 From: "jimbogner " Subject: Atlas Shaper Table Extension One of my Atlas Shapers came with a factory table extension. I have looked at various Atlas catalogs and parts lists but have never seen one listed. It seems to be an original Atlas accessory. The casting # is S7-435. I posted pictures of it in Photos - title "Table Extension". Does anyone else have this accessory? Has anyone heard of this accessory? Perhaps it's a prototype. Jim ------- Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2003 07:54:42 -0000 From: "Art Volz " Subject: RE: Atlas Table Extension + Atlas/Craftsman Model Number --- In Metal_Shapersx~xxyahoogroups.com, "jimbogner" wrote: > Hi Art, Sorry for the delay in posting this. > You asked about the door on my Atlas Shaper. The door does curve in > at the top. It also has, at the very top, a reverse curve where the > knob is fastened. I have 2 other Atlas's in storage. I'll check > those doors when I have a chance. > Jolene responded to my email. I had asked her about the 2 prints. > She said "one is for the table extension and the other for a bracket > that is used to mount it". She didn't tell me the titles of the > prints. My table extension bolts directly to the table. I wonder > how the bracket works. Maybe it doesn't need tapped holes in the > table to attach it like mine has. > I asked her if she had a complete listing of all the parts that were > once available for the Atlas Shaper. She didn't answer. I also > asked her what other 400-series parts were made? She said "Am not > sure what the reference to 400-series parts means so I am unable to > answer that question". > I asked what the cost was for 2 copies of each print. She said $30. > I thought they might give a discount. I wonder if they have a fixed > price of $7.50 a print. Jim Hi Jim-- Your description of the Atlas shaper door is as mine: the same curve and the same recurve at the top. My door is Part No. S7-89 whereas the door on page 8 of Shaper Bulletin S7B-5 (June 1959) is listed as Part No. S7-89A. I'm wondering what the difference is between the two doors. Maybe the early non-"A" doors had a smaller quarter round cut-out at the bottom left corner as maybe the earlier shapers may not have had anti-friction bearings on the pinion shaft, and may have just used iron bearings directly or bushed with bronze or oilite. Installing the anti-friction bearings could have required a larger cut-out on the door for clearance. My cut-out notch is quite small. What is your door's Part No.? How big is your door's cut-out? The bracket thing is interesting. Maybe it is as you suggest: used to physically attach the extension to the table. Maybe it could be, however, a device for locating and drilling the mounting bolt holes on the front face of the table. $7.50 per print sounds reasonable-- they don't normally have extra copies on hand so would have to go locate and pull the original, make the needed copies, and then refile the original...and then mail out the copies. Sure is nice that Atlas prints are still available from the original manufacturer and at reasonable prices. Last week, or the week before, I asked the group if anyone had the Model No. for the Atlas/Craftsman shaper. Bill F. (Olympia) and Doc both provided me with early 1950's Craftsman tool catalog pages with Catalog Numbers. From the numbers in the catalog, and knowing the Model Number of the Atlas/Craftsman horizontal mill (101.15500), as Bill suggested, it was realtively simple to derive that the probable Model Number for the shaper was 101.16000. The reason for wanting the Model Number is that Sears has an on-line parts catalog where drawings and parts lists can be seen: http://www3.sears.com . Entering the mill's Model Number, 4 drawings and 4 parts lists can be accessed. Unfortunately, when the Model Number for the shaper is entered this reply is printed to screen: "Parts are no longer available from the manufacturer for model number 101.16000." I was hoping that at least the drawings and parts lists would be accessible, but...the shaper is just history at Sears. Fortunately, Jolene Olds ( joldsx~xxclausing-industrial.com ) can still provide both manuals and parts drawings from the Service Center in Goshen, Indiana for the Atlas/Craftsman machines. Like you and I do, Jim, all should support this fine service so that Clausing will continue to continue it. Art (Houston North. When I'm good, I'm real good. When I'm bad, I'm bitter. :-) ) -------- Date: Sun, 16 Feb 2003 01:34:36 -0000 From: "Peter Verbree " Subject: Re: Found an Atlas shaper vise It's a little like when I asked a dealer a while back "how much do you usually get for a south bend taper attachment?" he said "As much as I like!!' His response was a little tongue in cheek, but they seem to be worth their weight in gold plate. The atlas shaper vise is in the same class. The last one I saw on Ebay sold for over $200.00, and they are very rare. Everyone wants to keep it for a mill or drillpress. I had one atlas shaper with an original vise, and one with a hand made vise. I'd say, based on that experience it would be worth at least $150.00. It fits, it is the right proportions for the machine, and it is down right handy!! BUY IT!! good luck Pete (who is looking for a vise for an Alba 1A) ------- Date: Fri, 07 Mar 2003 18:30:51 -0000 From: "mattdrag2002" Subject: Atlas 7" I have an atls 7" shaper. When i got it the thing was disassembled for cleaning and paint. Its all there complete with vise-except 1- item--the laminated shims for the Ram??? The book says they are .010" how can i replace these???? I have had this for about 4-years and want to start putting it back together soon. Thanks Greg ------- Date: Fri, 07 Mar 2003 20:32:47 -0000 From: "gvasale" Subject: Re: Atlas 7" It will probably be something you'll have to experiment with. Laminated shim stock is available, but it comes in rectangular sheets, which means it will have to be sheared. If you have s MSC catalog, or perhaps anothe supply company catalog, check it out. I know Starret sells shim stock on a coil about 1/2" wide. Regardless, it will be expensive. The rectangle stuff starts at about $25.00, it looks like the coils are about $100.00. Sorry you need it. Do you know someone with a shop you could mooch some from? ------- Date: Fri, 7 Mar 2003 18:32:53 -0500 From: "Merril Mabon" Subject: Re: Re: Atlas 7" I don't know the shape and size of the required shims, but is it something that could be removed from a feeler gauge? An imported gauge about 1/2" total thickness with sizes from .0015 to .025 can be had new for less than $5.00. Just a thought... Merril ------- Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2003 15:31:15 -0800 From: "Dan Hill" Subject: Re: Re: Motor and Countershaft Pulleys Atlas MFC I haven't exactly dated it but I have serial # 501 so mine is early. I have began compiling information but don't have anything concrete yet because I am finding discrepancies in info but I have reached a few conclusions which may or may not be correct. They began production in 1941 and ceased production in 1961(although I have an October 1962 manual). The M1-22 cutter guard which is on earlier mills was discontinued sometime between 1945, and 1950 and the M1-61 Arbor support bar was introduced in that same timeframe. So if yours has the cutter guard or the hole for the cutter guard pin above the support arm you have one built earlier, No hole is later. That narrows it some. What is the serial number of yours? What style guard? The earlier M1-52 cover plate had the headstock half of the hinge cast into the headstock while the later models were bolted to the headstock. The solution to the mysteries continues to unfold. I also hear that Clausing can date them by the serial number, but I haven't called them yet. Dan. ------- Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2003 21:01:14 -0400 From: Peter Merriam Subject: Re: Re: Motor and Countershaft Pulleys Atlas MFC Dan and Chris I talked recently by phone to Richard Stines, 8147 Helm St. San Diego, CA 92114 at (619) 466-2772 (call after noon, he is not on the internet) who is compiling a registry of Atlas mills. My MFB mill is serial 006714 and Richard said it dates between 1946 and 1948. My MFB has the mounting hole for the cutter guard. I think he said the MFC mills came out in 1949 and introduced the arbor support bar. (I got the above phone no. from a Google search using Atlas horizontal mill as the search words.) Peter ------- Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2003 23:35:04 -0600 From: "jerdal" Subject: Re: Opinions on Atlas Shaper? > How many of you have or know about these? I am buying an Atlas > horizontal mill and may be able to work a good deal on the mill > and a shaper that the seller has. I have one, and like it. > How well do these things work? I can't conceive of how a > reciprocating cutter can do consistantly accurate work, > but I guess they must work. If you don't mind working *only to the nearest thousandth of an inch*, they are fine... Just go over the machine and set the shims on the ram and other parts as per the instructions, and it will be OK. You should set the clearances dry, since the idea is to allow oil room, and no more. Way oil is the lube I would use on the ram. > If it turns out to be the older variety machine, without the support > arm under the box, should I still get it (or are these older ones to > be avoided)? I wonder if a support could be fashioned. Also, maybe > the support is not really needed unless doing heavy cuts. Atlas obviously thought it was needed. I don't know how you would add one, but it probably could be done. Not all shapers have such a thing, but I think it allows holding better flatness with the atlas. I use my shaper in the same manner as a horizontal milling machine. Since you already bought a horizontal mill, about half of the potential usage is provided for already, but the inside spline or keyway type stuff you need the shaper for. I think it is a bit more restful to operate than a mill, and it has automatic feed built-in, which must be added to a mill. I think it will cut more material per minute than most mills of anywhere near the size, but horizontal mills tend to be hoggers too. BTW restful does not mean to snooze, it can break things and damage you if you dope off. And as I think I mentioned, cheap gear cutting is possible, although you can do that with a setup like a fly cutter on a horizontal or vertical mill also. Various means of gear shaping featuring "generation" instead of formed cutters may be easier. Jerrold ------- Date: Mon, 07 Apr 2003 16:08:10 -0000 From: "lkasdorf" Subject: pics of new toys- Atlas MF mill and 7B shaper Over the weekend I picked up an Atlas MF mill and a 7B shaper. Remarkably, they are on their original cast iron stands! I am SO grateful for all the fine information, photos, and acticles available here. The seller was blown away when I showed him the "Know Your Shaper" article (I did this AFTER we made the deal). By the way, I got both machines for $300. He was asking $300 for the shaper and $200 for the mill, but when he discovered the broken gear, and after showing it to somebody who was expecting a vertical mill, he offered to just give it to me if I bought the shaper. I created an album in the photos section of the atlasshaperandmillingmachineusers forum: http://photos.groups.yahoo.com/group/atlasshaperandmillingmachineusers group/lst?.dir=/Atlas+MF+%26+7B+(Kasdorf) &.src=gr&.order=&.view=t&.done=http%3a//briefcase.yahoo.com/ or http://tinyurl.com/8zgn The shaper's stand has the original wood. The mill's stand has a section of 2x10. I plan to rebuild these stands, and mill up some nice maple for the non-original wood. The mill needs a bit of help. An idler gear in the power feed gearbox is destroyed. I think the other gears are more-or-less ok. These cheesy pot metal gears seem to be out of place in an otherwise high quality machine, IMHO. The table has to places where the tee bolts pulled through the slot (!) and chipped it out. I can probably use it without this being a problem, by just avoiding those parts of the table. It is also missing the limit blocks on the table, that hit the pawl to stop power feed. I can probably make those. It also needs a motor. I have a few motors I can mount there, but have not found just the right one yet. I have a more modern Baldor 1 hp that would mount there, but would it be bad to have a 1hp motor on this machine? The shaper is in much better condition. It works! I don't have a proper toolholder or cutter yet, but the seller gave me a lathe toolholder, and I've been attaching various things to it and making chips. I had fairly good success with a broken drill bit that I gound down to be a cutter. I need to get the lowdown on a good tooling setup for the shaper. The lathe toolholder holds a 5/16" chunk of tool steel at an angle- maybe 10 deg off vertical. I think that shapers should have the cutter vertical. Do some folks just forego a toolholder entirely and directly mount the cutter into the ram's toolholder mount? The seller also gave me a carbid tipped lathe cutter. I was able to grind it down a bit to fit in the holder, but was quite disappointed with the results. I didn't cut as well as my drill bit experiment. I tried canting it so just the corner was hitting the work, and that kinda worked, but i get chatter and uneven cuts. I guess HSS is the way to go. Any advice on a good way to get my tooling setup for general purpose work in aluminum and mild steel would be welcome. At some point I'll be completely rebuilding both of these, and I'll want some advise on the "proper" colors. The shaper looks to have been originally a fairly light gray (looks like Rustoleum Light Machinery Gray to me), but was brushed painted with a medium gray at some point. Alas, they pretty much brutalized the Timken bearings decal. I don't knwo what to do about that. Has anybody reproduced these? The shaper is a much darker greenish/gray In fact the paint looks to be the exact shade of decades old machine shop grime that covers all the metal surfaces. I wonder what a good match for this original color will be? Maybe I'll just paint it to match its brother (the 7B). Detailed questions about the mill fixup are a whole 'nother topic! Lynn Kasdorf ------- Date: Mon, 7 Apr 2003 13:33:07 -0700 (PDT) From: kndroy Subject: Re: pics of new toys- Atlas MF mill and 7B shaper Congrats on the find. I too just acquired a 7b. The fact you got a complete working unit let alone two machines is a good deal. Of course this stuff would seem like junk to the average person (my wife) My 7b is missing the pulley guards. They were an option so they are not always present. In the day your employer did not care if you hand was pulled into a belt driven pulley. My friend had the motor pulley guard so I need to find one more guard and the mount. I am interested in what color you decide to go with. I too am interested in painting it the original color. Check out this one..... http://www.jamesriser.com/Machinery/AtlasShaper/AtlasShaper.html the one at the bottom looks original. I can't figure out what color it is. I emailed the guy and he said it was bare cast iron. I don't think he is correct. Take care, Dave ------- Date: Mon, 7 Apr 2003 23:20:42 -0500 From: "jerdal" Subject: Re: pics of new toys- Atlas MF mill and 7B shaper > The mill needs a bit of help. An idler gear in the power feed gearbox > is destroyed. I think the other gears are more-or-less ok. These > cheesy pot metal gears seem to be out of place in an otherwise high > quality machine, IMHO. So, you use the shaper to make the gears for the mill. Perfect synergism. Shapers do gears nicely, easier with a form tool, but you CAN generate the shape from a rack tooth cutter. Just grind a tool to fit any tooth space you can still find good, and kludge up an indexer using a change gear as the reference. > I think that shapers should have the cutter > vertical. Do some folks just forego a toolholder entirely and > directly mount the cutter into the ram's toolholder mount? I put the tool directly into the lantern post holder, on top of a ring that is there. Ring isn't required, and the further back, the better, actually. Less chatter when back. I do have a multi-position holder, which I will use for some things. The best stock removal tools are HSS ground with a lot of rake. my best hogger has an actual half-round grind in it, with the edge being one side of the half-round. Peels off aluminum and steel before the material knows it is being cut...... A flat-front cutter, like most carbide, "plows" instead of cutting. And while you can use carbide, it isn't reaching the surface speeds where it is best on a small shaper. Refer to the Rudy Kouhaupt articles in HSM , then DON'T DO WHAT HE SHOWS. He usually shows a flattish barely raked brazed carbide cutter, and shows the clapper straight. Bad Rudy! You want a raked HSS tool, probably, and you want to set the clapper angle so that the tool swings up and away from the surface being cut. Clapper box... DO not do what the manual says to tighten the clapper up. You need to ream the clapper and hinges with a taper pin reamer (seems like it is a #8, I can check) and then just touch the clapper alone to get a thous or so over. An unworn taper pin with a thread turned on the end (if existing one is too worn) is put thru, and just snugged. The clapper should not shake nor move to the side, but should raise and drop cleanly and easily. There is a bit of fitting to get it right. If it is already OK, don't sweat it. Get way oil, good for most all of the sliding surfaces in the thing. Have fun Jerrold ------- NOTE TO FILE: There is a continuation of this discussion on shaper tooling in the text file shaper_bits_and_toolholders.txt as the question was also posted to the Metal_Shapers Yahoo group. That file has very good technical information on this subject, which applies to the Atlas and any other shaper. ------- Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2003 14:05:24 -0000 From: "kndroy" Subject: Knuckle head me ... shims feel out ... help! I was taking my Atlas 7" shaper appart and at some time in the process some very thin washers (4) fell out. They are probably being used as shims on a shaft. The parts diagram does not list them so I'm stuck. The id of the shims are about 1/2" so they probably shim a gear into alignment on one of the acme screws. Has anyone seen these before? Thanks, Dave ------- Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2003 10:01:19 -0000 From: "Thomas Petersen" Subject: RE: Knuckle head me ... shims feel out ... help! Hi Dave, I found those shim washers in my Shaper too. They appear in the "Table Parts List" with the Lift Screw S7-43. Their part numbers are 10-255 (0.005"), 10-255A (0.010") and 10-255B (0.025"). A combination of these washers are used to align the Lift screw gears (S7-60A). My shaper had a number of these washers. I don't remember how many or the combination. When I got my shaper, the table did not move so I disassembled it carefully recording the order in which the parts came off. During reassembly, I found that the gears did not mesh without binding hard. I realized my careful recording of the part order was in vain, because the machine was assembled improperly to begin with by the previous owner. So, using the parts manual, this is what I found worked for me. The washer S7-155 rides between the shoulder of the lift screw and the frame. I can see this washer from the outside of the assembled. The set of shim washers ride between the frame and the gear (S7-60A). These washers cannot be seen from the outside of the assembled machine. I think the idea was by choosing the proper set of shim washers smooth gear meshing could be attained. Once assembled properly the table moves very smoothly. Hope this helps, Tom. ------- [NOTE TO FILE: See April 2003 discussion of bearing lubricants for this machine in text file "Lubricants General" -- there is much more lubricant info elsewhere in that file and in "Shapers General" that will be of interest to this Atlas model or other brands.] ------- Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2003 08:47:32 -0700 (PDT) From: kndroy Subject: Re: 7" Shaper grease No swarf can enter the Timken bearings on the Atlas 7". Funny thing...they look exactly like automotive tapered wheel bearings. Dave ------- NOTE TO FILE: On 05 May 2003 there is a discussion in the text file "Shaper Mods General" as to possible mods for an Atlas shaper to replace a missing horizontal feed system. The replies are generic and might relate to any shaper. ------- Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2003 19:12:13 -0400 From: "Dick Farris" Subject: Re: Ram travel > I can't get the ram on my 7 inch Atlas shaper to go to zero travel, > what could be the problem. Regards/Harprit RAM Stroke Length. To adjust the stroke length, place the crank on the square-end shaft INSIDE the large hand nut which revolves with the bull gear. Hold the hand nut with the left hand and turn the crank a half-turn to the right with the right hand. This loosens the crank shaft. The RAM should have been revolved by hand to the extreme end of the return stroke. Turn the crank and watch the pointer and scale. The pointer shows the length of stroke directly in inches. Get to where you want to be and hold the crank steady and turn the hand nut to the right until it stops. Lock the hand nut by holding the hand nut steady and turning the crank to the left. Never strike the hand nut with anything. This verbage is from the manual. This hand nut and crank are found on the right hand side of the shaper and a little lower and toward the rear of the on-off switch. The lever on the top of the ram adjusts the ram position, not the length of the stroke. Hope this helps. Dick Farris Toledo Oh. ------- Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2003 00:35:11 -0000 From: "al_messer" Subject: Re: Ram travel Pardon my ignorant question but WHY do you need Zero travel for the ram? Al Messer ------- Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2003 08:20:09 -0500 From: "Harprit Sandhu" Subject: Re: Re: Ram travel Thanks. The problem is that the the crank will not move the slide on the bull gear any more after the stroke gets down to about 2 inches. I am rebuilding this shaper and have it all apart except the axle assembly that mounts the bull gear and all that. I am loathe to take this apart but may have to to see what happens and why. Some one might have assembled things wrong or there might be something caught in behind the slide. As for why one would need zero travel. One would not, but one might need a tenth of an inch and strangely enough one might want a machine that worked right the way it should!! I know other shapers just like mine crank down to zero real smooth but mine binds up at the low stroke end. I just wanted to ask the experts before I took the impact screw driver to the screws. Regards/Harprit. ------- Date: Fri, 08 Aug 2003 00:20:20 -0000 From: "kc5ezc" Subject: Atlas 7B table flatness Hi guys, My 7B table has about a .002 vertical dip from front to back. Pretty gradual by my measurements. Is this normal or anything to worry about? The 7B manual suggests taking a cut across the table to make the table flat. I am very hesitant to do that without guidance. Even though the vertical dimension is pretty limited, I am thinking about adding a tooling plate to the top of the table and cutting the plate flat. Your ideas and recommendations would be appreciated. John Burchett in Ada OK ------- Date: Fri, 08 Aug 2003 22:37:24 -0000 From: "al_messer" Subject: Re: Atlas 7B table flatness How do your work pieces mike out from front to back? If you don't want to take down a bit off the table, try shimming the base of the vise if this is what is out of kilter. Al ------- Date: Fri, 8 Aug 2003 19:04:47 EDT From: RIBuhitex~xxaol.com Subject: Re: Re: Atlas 7B table flatness Your Idea of a tooling plate sounds like a good one. I would also check to see that the support "foot" is in contact and this is not just play in the gibs. Put an indicator on the head and hand crank it across your table then move it (the table) across in the other axis. Then lift and twist the table and see if it has any play in the gibs. Also lift the "ram" to see if it has play. Two thousands isn't much when you go out 5 or 6 inches. Of course under stress and tension of an actual cut other "out of square and plumb" features arise. I guess it all comes down to how much you take off per pass and how accurate you need be that is directly proportional to the expected results! Good luck. Rick in Anaheim ------- Date: Sat, 09 Aug 2003 00:25:37 -0000 From: "kc5ezc" Subject: Re: Atlas 7B table flatness Thanks for the input Al and Rick. You are right if it is cutting good parts, it is OK. I'll do a better test. The parts I have been making are only about 1.5 inches wide. I'll stick a piece 5x5 or so in there and see what happens. Also will use the vise and see how it works out. Just needed something to get my head working. Thanks again guys. John Burchett in Ada OK ------- Date: Sat, 9 Aug 2003 00:48:06 EDT From: jmartin957x~xxaol.com Subject: Re: Atlas 7B table flatness Is that high in the front or the back? If it's high at the front, I wouldn't worry a bit as it may just even out when the tool is exerting its cutting force. If it's at the back, you might consider resurfacing the table. Might. I'd first check it at a number of different table heights to see if it might be wear in the column gibs that is causing the trouble. Connelly's "Machine Tool Reconditioning" will tell you more than you'll ever want to know about checking and correcting these kinds of problems, although it does not specifically discuss shapers. John Martin ------- Date: Sat, 09 Aug 2003 18:23:20 -0000 From: "kc5ezc" Subject: Re: Atlas 7B table flatness John, it is a dip in the table or seems to be. Seems to go down about 2 to 3 thousands starting about 1 inch from the back and coming up again about 3 inches later. I'll do some more testing as suggested and let you know. Thanks for the help. John burchett in Ada OK ------- Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2003 00:17:21 -0000 From: "Greg B" Subject: Re: Atlas 7B table flatness John: Take a straight edge, lay it across your table front to back, see if you can fit a feeler gauge between the straight edge and the table. If you cannot, then I would start checking to see if the ram is getting some rocking motion as it slides. If the ram is the culprit, recutting the table will not solve your problem. Greg B. ------- Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 21:37:37 -0000 From: "kc5ezc" Subject: Re: Atlas 7B table flatness Thanks Greg, I checked the table of the atlas 7B with a straight edge and a feeler gage. Couldn't get a .001 blade under the straight edge anywhere. I'll look at the ram and and see what gives. Glad I asked before taking a cut on the table. Thanks everyone. John Burchett in Ada OK ------- Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 22:56:32 -0000 From: "al_messer" Subject: Re: Atlas 7B table flatness John: If the problem is in the ram, removing a layer of shims from the gibs of the flat ways may cure the problem. Al Messer ------- Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 23:37:48 -0000 From: "kc5ezc" Subject: Re: Atlas 7B table flatness I'm still looking for shim stock that can be peeled like the 7B manual shows. I used the peelable shim stock in the 60s doing radar system repairs. Haven't seen any in years. I'll check the usual catalogs and 'google' it. Thanks for the information. John Burchett in Ada OK ------- Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 00:30:15 -0000 From: "Greg B" Subject: Re: Atlas 7B table flatness John, McMaster Carr sells sheets of laminated shim stock. I think that they have an online catalog. A sheet of brass .010 thick, .002 layers, 8.00x24.00 is about $17.00. Part # 9521K33. They also carry different thicknesses and materials. Greg B. ------- Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 13:16:25 -0000 From: "al_messer" Subject: Re: Atlas 7B table flatness If push comes to shove, use Reynolds Wrap strips. It is very uniform in thickness. Al Messer ------- Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2003 10:44:43 -0500 From: "Harprit Sandhu" Subject: Re: Plans for S7 INDEXER in PIX I have posted AutoCad 14 drawings for the INDEXER for the Atlas S7 shaper in the http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Metal_Shapers_Pix/files/ at Yahoo. These are not 100% complete at this time and probably never will be but they will be added to. This is not an exact copy but as close as I could get and still have it so the home machinist can make it. No tolerances are specified and so these are not real engineering drawings. Please do not distribute this information. It will be updated from time to time on this site. Let me have your feed back as soon as possible. Your comments are very eagerly solicited. Please report any errors that you find to me so I can fix them. Casting should be available in about two months. I do not know the costs as yet. It will depend on the supplier and I suppose on the quantity ordered initially. Right now it's about 5 sets. If you need a set let me know. Complete machined INDEXERS will also be available later. Regards/Harprit/Illinois/USA ------- Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 03:28:07 -0000 From: "Greg B" Subject: Which Way Does It Go??!!?? HI Folks: Well I'm in the process of reassembling my Atlas 7B and I've hit a small snag. The pivoting block at the top of the ram lever, the one that clamps the ram. The ram positioning screw threads into this block. The block is threaded only halfway, the remainder is drilled for clearance. My burning question is, does the threaded half face the rear of the ram, or the front???? If a fellow Atlas owner could peer down the long slot on top of the ram and advise me on this, I would really appreciate it. Greg B. ------- Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 03:50:03 -0000 From: "don_kinzer" Subject: Re: Which Way Does It Go??!!?? I put mine in with the non-threaded portion toward the rear. Seems to work fine. This orientation allows the block to travel the full length of the screw (if need be) and avoids binding on the end with the bevel gear. Don Kinzer Portland, OR ------- Date: Thu, 09 Oct 2003 14:47:39 -0000 From: "Art Volz" Subject: Re: Atlas Clapper Box Taper Pin In Metal_Shapersx~xxyahoogroups.com, "Greg B" wrote: > I'm sure that this may have been covered sometime in the past, but, > is there any reason NOT to change my worn out clapper pin to a > straight pin? Greg B. Greg--The reason your Atlas-7B has a tapered clapper pin (#S7-46A) is because the taper allows the side-to-side "slop" in the movement of the clapper to be adjusted to "just right" by tightening/loosening the two hex jam nuts (#9-222) which are held locked after "tuning" by the shakeproof lockwasher between the two nuts. My Lewis-10 has a straight pin which still works OK since my Lewis never had much use, but when the clapper finally becomes "sloppy" I'll have to replace it with a taper pin assembly like the Atlas OEM one. My suggestion for you is to make a replacement taper pin. Replacement with a straight pin, while easier to do, is not a good solution. Art (Houston...awaiting the rain. I, unlike many Houstonians, like rain, as long as it is not accompanied with those damnable tornadoes as they usually are. So far we've been lucky; I keep my fingers crossed. And, then, there's those Hurricanes, but the worse are them Sooners: "Gig 'em Horns!!!") ------- Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 00:29:20 EDT From: n8as1x~xxaol.com Subject: Re: Re: Atlas Clapper Box Taper Pin ART ....FWIW ...re : recent comment abt atlas zamac feed gearcase....thot my 7b looked like cast iron...put a magnst to it today & it is ...appears factory w/ oilhole for shaft & spring loaded ball oiler on top for ratchet, R & L raised on casting ....later production? .....aftr market production?... made a couple mic/dial ind. carriage stops last 2 days ...have used this shaper last 30 yrs once in a while.,mostly keyways & flat surfacing, one dovetail ( needed 55 deg.)....now i needed 85 deg, for bedway inverted V ...on hot rolled.i can get a finish approaching my ancient surface grinder on plane horiz. surface w/ shear tool or better yet ,shovel nose ( dutch) bit set almost flat....hard to beleive its so reflective ...fingernail slides like on glass.... BUT I.went absolutely crazy on V surfaces...interferences...regrind tool .....dam- holder dugin on opposite side ......surface looks like a support block for a clamp .....recheck...rake ,clearance & clapper offset go back to grinder ...dam- ,,,,ground it for opposite side .....O K .now , ive got it. .....still rough ,but working ..WHAAA....interference from BIT shank moved tool & now cutting straight down .....now clapper didnt seat for return,that gouge looked nice ..better manually return clapper for rest of this run!....cleaned it up w/ a file & hid most of the evidence.... started cocking my head & grinding for finish as on a lathe but,.radius on point only means it wont cut till enuf force used that it wants to hog ..sharp point better than nothing,but must have a 1/16 + flat for a good finish, & even then thats a charitable description....rescan old texts...all my texts show side,angle tools ,but no clarity of what cutting edge really looks like ...driving me nuts... ,can sharpen a drillbit in 5 seconds , & these surfaces are look like pipe jaws..... going to take the next day (birthday), & spend it grinding bits & cutting angle/side surfaces .....have a funny feeling that machine may be a little lite for the extended setups required for dovetail/angular cutting., particularly when cutting a vee next to an elevated surface. (need to get power to 16 in smith/mills now that farm work abt over) ...& this time will make notes ...kinda like my buzzbox....one years experience 40 times instead of 40 yrs....gas torch has stayed better w/ me,used once in a while........well u may not feel better , but i am vented have a 2 page didactic e mail of d. king off of chaski on proceedures & hints on using shaper ..if u would want to put it on line , i think i can email u via j peg.attachment ( i managed it once anyway looking at instructions) ..i have finally found my couple dozen printed instructional "gems" from chaski resident gurus , that someone offered to post ...have now forgotten email address /which yahoo group.....if u have interest in any of this ...let me know ...may be easier to slomail u some copies best wishes docn8as p s flash!....blind hog roots an acorn...smith /mills has universal table .rotate /tilt /support pedestal .( thot it looked diffrunt)....& no clamping boss/lever on top of ram is factory...a self compensating spring loaded nut system ....patent sold to cinti shaper in 50's ( thanks to $50 dollar manual & previous posts on board regarding manufacturer in cinti). ------- Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 15:13:21 -0000 From: "al_messer" Subject: Re: Atlas 7" parts? -- In Metal_Shapersx~xxyahoogroups.com, "markcostello43130" wrote: > I need a crank handle for the top slide of an ATLAS 7" shaper. It is > the one that lowers the tool bit to the work. It has a 3/8" bore and > 1/8" keyway. Anybody know where to get one? Don't mean to sound like a Smart A--, but why not make one? In Gingery's book, he shows how to cast them as well but they appear to be simple turning and boring jobs for the lathe. File in the keyway with a narrow pillar file. Al Messer ------- Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 04:47:03 -0000 From: "Greg B" Subject: Re: Atlas 7" parts? That part is still available from Clausing, part# L2-61A. According to my 2001 price list $31.00. Greg B. ------- Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2003 03:11:25 -0000 From: "don_kinzer" Subject: Re: need bevel gears! In Metal_Shapersx~xxyahoogroups.com, "markcostello43130" wrote: > I have just acquired an Atlas 7" shaper. I need to know how to remove > the bevel gears on the back of the ram. Gears seem to be stripped > out, also need to know where to buy them. Could stock gears be > modified? Anyone have copies of the manual? Firstly, download the PDF of the parts manual. The diagrams therein will help you determine how to disassemble the beast. Note that the S7-118 Gear has a pin through it affixing it to the S7-37 screw. There is a hole on the top of the ram through which you can wield a pin punch to drive out the pin. After removing the jam nuts on the aft end of the S7-37 screw you can slide the screw forward. Other parts will have to be removed (ram plates, wiper shields, etc.) before the ram itself can be removed. Boston Gear has a variety of gears including bevel gears. Once you have yours out and measure them, it is likely that you can find a stock gear, or pair of gears that will or can be made to work. Some machining may be required. Go to http://www.bostongear.com and use the "Literature" menu to find the Open Gearing information. I've included below a Tiny and full URL for a PDF contining their bevel and miter gears. You'll need to find a distributor from whom to buy the gears. If you live in or near a large city, check the Yellow Pages under "Gears", call the likely suspects and ask them if they stock or can get the particular Boston Gear number that you're wanting. If they don't handle Boston Gear they might be able to cross reference another manufacturer or refer you to a distributor that does. I believe that Grainger carrys Boston Gear also. TinyURL: http://tinyurl.com/r8re Full URL: http://bostongear.com/pdf/gears_catalog_sections/04_miter_bevel_gears.pdf Don Kinzer Portland, OR ------- Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2003 22:18:00 -0500 From: "Thomas Petersen" Subject: RE: need bevel gears! I did this a while back and I am working from memory. So, here goes: To remove the ram position adjustment gears, bevel gear (s7-118) and bevel gear with shaft (s7-103), located in the ram, you must first knock-out the pin which retains the gear on the horizontal screw shaft. Directly behind the vertical shaft on the ram is a hole. The hole is used to knock-out and insert the pin that holds the gear on the screw shaft (s7-37). My pin was tapered and could only be knocked out in one direction. Once the pin is out, remove the jam nuts on the back end of the screw shaft (s7-37). Then loosen the ram clamp and move the ram backward allowing room for the gear, bushing and washer to slide off the end of the screw shaft. Once these parts are out, loosen the collar (BD1-24) and drop the vertical shaft and gear down out of the ram. Also, I think I removed my drip pan off the back of the shaper to make it easier to work on. My gears were broken when I got my shaper and I worked for a year manually adjusting the ram position. With all the ram adjustment parts removed, you can position the ram by hand. Then, I decided to fix it. I got two matched bevel gears from MSC that were close in size and machined them to fit. Basically, I had to remove metal from the back of the gears and drill/bore out center of one of the gears. Also, drill the hole for the retaining pin. Pretty basic lathe/drill press work. Item# 36682789 - 12 PITCH 18 TEETH MITER GEARS 2 x~xx$16.72 totaling $33.44 Also, Atlas has some parts and does have the manual (about $5). I did not check if they had these parts. Hope this helps, Tom. ------- Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2003 17:38:41 -0000 From: "Art Volz" Subject: Atlas Shaper Grinder Going thru the 1940 Atlas Shop Equipment Catalog I finally "saw" something that has been eluding my peepers for quite some time: the Shaper Grinder S7-450 for the Atlas-7 shaper. I bet most of these ended up on lathes because once removed from the down-slide most people wouldn't (unless they knew that the "S7" prefix meant Atlas-7 shaper) have had the foggiest who made it and for what machine. "Gee, sweetie-pie, sure looks like it will fit my Logan/Monkey-Ward 10 x 24...darling...can I bid on it...huh...huh??? Didn't you say that you really liked that gorgeous paisley summer dress at Monkies???" (BTW, if anyone runs across parts with a "S8" prefix, they are NOT for the rare and elusive Atlas-8 shaper. I have such a door--it's for an Atlas c.1950's table saw and NOT a shaper. I'm mounting it on my wall anyway...amongst my shaper doors...who knows what stories I will tell...and to whom? "Yes Joe...it was a dark and stormy nite when we espyed, thru the driving rain, a source of refuge--an old and abandoned chicken coop...." :-)) To whet the avid appetites of those Atlas devotees, a bit of the verbiage from p. 54 of the catalog: --equips the shaper for fine surface finishing --mounted in place of the clapper head --lubricated-and-sealed-for-life ball bearing spindle --uses 2-1/2 OD wheels: #475--for Steel; #476--for CI --Dumore motor w/2-step pullies: 6800 & 10400 RPM --Dumore motor is universal: 105-125 AC x~xx 25-60 Hz; 105-125 DC --Motor w/hinged base for belt adjustment --Supplied with safety guards/shields for wheel and belt --Diamond wheel dresser provided --Weight: 22 lbs (10 Kg) --1940 price: $42.50 (Eat your hearts out!!!) Art (Houston: Gotta take some time and puruse that catalog more closely--might be some other nifty stuff that I didn't "see".) ------- Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2003 10:45:12 -0800 (PST) From: Art Volz Subject: Atlas Sheet Metal Shaper Cabinet I just received info from Dan Hill about the Atlas sheet metal cabinet. He told me that he has both the Atlas 1949 and 1950 catalogs and, while the 1949 catalog lists only the CI shaper stand, the 1950 catalog lists both the CI stand and a newly listed sheet metal stand. It is listed as #9050 and is listed with both the Atlas shaper and their horizontal mill so it may have been intended as an alternative stand/cabinet for both. The "9050" number is uncharacteristic of the normal Atlas numbering systems, so it may have been a cabinet designed and provided to Atlas from an outside source. When the CI stand was discontinued is not presently known (I don't have enuf Craftsman or Atlas catalogs), but, in the1953 Craftsman catalog, only a sheet metal floor cabinet for the shaper is listed, as I previously stated. I also have no idea whether the sheet metal stands listed in the Atlas and Craftsman catalogs are the same or not. Thanx Dan for the info. Art (Houston) ------- Date: Sun, 02 Nov 2003 15:18:45 -0000 From: "Art Volz" Subject: Re: Atlas Belt Guard I don't have the dimensions of either Atlas belt guard, but Dan Hill has a limited number of cast reproductions of the smaller belt guard for sale. He also has reproduction table traversing nuts. http://www.hillsgun.com . Dan probably can give you the dimensions also. Art (Houston) ------- Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2003 09:24:56 -0600 From: "Harprit Sandhu" Subject: Re: Atlas Lever Side Plate removal Joe: Yes its removable but it's easier if you take the lever out first and then take the plate off the lever. Advice: Replace the screws. Thanks/Regards Harprit Singh Sandhu ------- Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2004 15:49:28 -0000 From: "tew138" Subject: Table Height and Fixed Link on Atlas Shaper I've been trying to incorporate the 7" Atlas in making my latest project and noticed a problem with the fixed link. For those of you who do not have a Atlas, there are 2 links between the ratchet assembly and a rotating gear. The outer link moves with the gear and drives the rachet. The inner one is fixed and bolts to the shaft of the rachet and shaft of the gear. My question is what is the fixed link for? Since one end of the link bolts to the ratchet assembly/table and the other end mounts to the frame, that fixed link essentially locks the height of the table(!). I read the manual again but there was no mention of disconnecting the fixed link when raising or lowering the table. I'm sure I'm missing something obvious here. Tom ------- Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2004 16:45:34 -0000 From: "Don Kinzer" Subject: Re: Table Height and Fixed Link on Atlas Shaper The fixed link holds the S7-25D housing, which pivots on the S7-11 flange, so that the feed link can impart force to the rachet. Note that both ends of the fixed link should have an S7-80 bushing through them so that the nut doesn't bind the link. When the table is raised and lowered, you'll note that the S7-25D housing rotates slightly one way and then the other way when moving from one extreme to the other. As it does so, the ratchet case also moves. If you have an X table position set and you want to change the table height, you'll want to ensure that the ratchet feed is in neutral. Otherwise, the ratchet case motion may disturb your X position. ------- Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2004 20:07:43 -0000 From: "tew138" Subject: Re: Table Height and Fixed Link on Atlas Shaper Thanks, I see what you're saying. When I took off the S7-24D guard it looked like the S7-64 Bearing Plate was integral with the S7-25D Housing (which would prevent the housing from rotating). On my machine this bearing plate is probably stuck. I assume that's why I could not lower the table without binding on the fixed link. I'll remove the links and see if I can turn the housing by hand. The answer was right there in the exploded view! Thanks again, Tom ------- Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2004 00:24:10 -0000 From: volzmechatronicx~xxyahoo.com Subject: Re: Pulley Rotation On Atlas > Does anyone know the direction of rotation of the large pulley on an > Atlas 7b shaper? The arrow on mine is long gone. Mine is running CCW > looking at the pulley from that side. Thanks, Dave Dave-- Funny. I just looked in the Atlas manual too (I don't own an Atlas shaper) and read the Non-GI-Proof instructions: "Important. Be sure direction of rotation is in accordance with arrow on large single step countershaft pulley." Then I went to the page with the illustration of that pulley "S7-124" & they've got it facing so you can't see the arrow. Not even a notation about the arrow. Old time movie: "Revenge of the 1950's Nerds!" Someone here will tell you which way the arrow is pointing, but until then, here is the rule of thumb procedure. Adjust your shaper for the slowest speed and longest stroke. Operate it manually several strokes to make sure sure nothing is getting "banged", then turn the shaper on. If you have the pulley turning in the proper direction, and only if you do, the ram stroke will be SLOWER than the RETRACK stroke which should be much faster. Remember, the Atlas employs a "QUICK-RETURN" mechanism. If its ramming faster than retracting, reverse your motor connections. Art (Houston) ------ Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2004 21:57:28 -0500 From: alexbarrie Subject: Re: Re: Pulley Rotation On Atlas Have the motor rotate so that the crank pin is at the top of rotation pushing forward on the cutting stroke and at the bottom of rotation on the return. Alex ------ Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2004 01:13:46 -0000 From: "kndroy" Subject: Removal of ratchet gear 9-101-20 from screw I noticed the gear is loose on the screw and removal seems to be accomplished by pressing gear off of bushing s7-111. Seems like they may have put a shear pin through the bushing and screw then put the gear on. What is the best way to get the gear off the shaft? The gear is stuck on the bushing with no way to remove it. I was thinking of making a hollow punch to fit over screw, supporting the gear while driving bushing out. Thanks, Dave ------ Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2004 03:36:11 -0000 From: volzmechatronicx~xxyahoo.com Subject: Re: Clamp & Handle screw s on Atlas Ram - Purpose? Dave--I see you're learning to understand the nature of your Atlas. All the Atlas machines were over designed...and under designed: like their fetish for cancerous die-cast zinc alloy parts (an under design). I've seen some of their 6-inch lathes where the teeth on the change geares were pure mush (intergranular corrosion). Had to replace my stepped spindle pulley on my c. 1950 No. 1020 drill press because of diseased zinc alloy...and then I had to use shims so that a Chicago Die Casting pulley of standard bore ID would fit the spindle shaft which was some weird decimal dimension (I have the official Atlas dimensioned drawing for that pulley). Nutz! Imagine yourself on Pitcher Street in the engineering design drafting room...on a humid 1950's August afternoon without a hint of a breeze flowing thru the screened windows...trying to justify your continued employment at Atlas Press...after everything has already been designed and IS being manufactured. Simple: "improve it"...add some dinky parts here and dorky parts there. Who cares if they're needed or not: "Change IS Progress!" And change keeps you employed. The springs and the fillister head screws are pure nutz...as is the goofy clamp itself: a large thick off-the-shelf washer (cheap) would have worked as well. Apparently, the springs were supposed to release the clamp from the block when the clamp handle was loosened-- but they also keep the block connected to the clamp in case the operator loosened the handle all the way to "off". Question. When the fillister head machine screws are tightened all the way on your Atlas, can you lift the clamp a bit against the spring pressure? Is it "spring" loose? Art (Houston) ------ Date: Fri, 05 Nov 2004 02:55:10 -0000 From: "al_messer" Subject: Re: Raising and lowering table Bill, on an old Atlas I used to own, before the table could be raised or lowered, you had to loosen up all the bolts that secured the LEFT hand gib strip as you faced the machine. On my present S-B 7, there is a locking lever on the LEFT side of the upper part of the table. However, you may be right--it may just need a good soak in penetrating oil or WD-40 to loosen things up. Best wishes and good luck!! Al Messer ------- Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2004 04:45:20 -0000 From: "grouchy_old_fred" Subject: Questions about making Atlas 7B parts I previously posted this on the Home Machinist site, so apologies for the overlap. This question is for anyone who has tinkered with the innards of a 7B. Mine needs a new feed leadscrew, which I'm planning to make from purchased precision Acme stock and a gear (on the Atlas parts list as "9-101-20"; have ordered a 16-pitch 20-tooth 14.5 pressure angle) plus bushing. The cost of these materials exceeded the shaper's purchase price! On the old leadscrew, the gear is apparently pressed onto a two-keyed bushing, but the bushing flaps loosely on the shaft as if held by one battered screw. Doesn't seem natural. As long as the new bushing+gear is in the right place and alignment, shouldn't it be rigidly fastened to the shaft? Since the handle end of the leadscrew is the major diameter of the longer threaded part, I'm planning to make it from a short length of shaft and bore a hole in the end to accept a nipple turned down on the end of the threaded rod. Any tips or gotchas? Fred ------- Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2004 05:47:57 -0000 From: "Don Kinzer" Subject: Re: Questions about making Atlas 7B parts > [...] Since the handle end of the leadscrew is the major diameter > of the longer threaded part, I'm planning to make it from a short > length of shaft and bore a hole in the end to accept a nipple > turned down on the end of the threaded rod. Any tips or gotchas? That is what I did when I made a crossfeed screw for my J-Line shaper. I made the parts with a medium press fit and then drilled and reamed the joint for a taper pin. Here is a picture of the finished screw: http://www.kinzers.com/don/MachineTools/j-line_Shaper/leadscrew.jpg ------- Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2004 05:39:19 -0000 From: "grouchy_old_fred" Subject: Re: Questions about making Atlas 7B parts "J. R. Williams" wrote: > Fred: Since you are replacing the bushing and gear, > make the shaft FIT the bushing and remove all the "slop". JRW That is my plan, since I could think of no good reason for the "compliance". Do you know if there is, in fact, a screw through the bushing inside the gear? FR ------- Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2004 06:31:52 -0000 From: volzmechatronicx~xxyahoo.com Subject: Re: Questions about making Atlas 7B parts Why do you believe that there is a screw through the bushing inside the gear? None such is shown on page 9, "Table Parts List", of Shaper Bulletin S7B-5 to which you have access. There's one way to find out... Art (Houston) ------- Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2004 03:56:46 -0000 From: "Greg B" Subject: Re: Questions about making Atlas 7B parts Ok, this may or may not be the defining answer. When I took my 7B down, my table screw had exactly the problem Fred is experiencing. The gear itself was tight on the bushing, but the bushing was sloppy on the shaft. After pressing the gear off, there was a pin securing the bushing to the screw. Now whether or not this was installed at the "factory" or a fix by someone down the line, I don't know. Nor do I care. When I remade my feedscrew, I did exactly what has already been described. First, I bought some acme threaded rod from McMaster Carr, the precision rolled stuff, not the general purpose allthread. Then I cut off a piece about 2" longer than the threaded portion of the original screw. I machined the exta 2" down a dia. of .3130. Next I took a piece of 5/8" dia. CRS and the length of the UNthreaded part of the screw, and drilled and reamed a hole deep enough and for a fairly hard press fit of the reduced dia. of the threaded part. Pressed the parts together with some cylindrical retaining compound (Green Locktite), then gripped the threaded portion in a collet with the free end supported by a live center, and then machined the 5/8 diameter down to .500 dia., thus ensuring concentricity of the two parts. I had previously measured the location of the hole the the pin was driven through. I then just duplicated it. The 2" long portion that was pressed into the reamed hole extended far enough into the unthreaded part so that the pin would go through that as well, making a very stong joint, indeed. Installed the keyed bushing, pressed in a new groove pin, groove pins are handier than taper pins, since you don't need a taper reamer, and pressed the gear back on. New feedscrew finished. Of course, I also machined, threaded, and cut the seat for the woodruff key on the other end of the feedscrew. As I said, I don't know if the pin was original but, it seemed like the right way to do it. By the way, I used almost the exact same process years ago to replace the worn out crossfeed screw on my A/C 12"x36" lathe. The only difference being that the gear is pressed directly onto the shaft and held immobile by a woodruff key. Greg B. ------- Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2004 07:56:43 -0000 From: volzmechatronicx~xxyahoo.com Subject: Re: Questions about making Atlas 7B parts Greg -- Both the SB-7 and the Logan-8 used directly pinned ratchet wheels (without bushings) and depict such on their exploded drawings with part numbers for the pins. Atlas was always meticulous about indicating their "part numbers" for all parts used no matter how mundane; maybe in this case the bushing and pin, if a pin was used, were considered as "one" complete part. My Lewis uses a keyed ratchet wheel with a Woodruff key and also without a bushing. Considering the difficulty in reproducing the tabbed Atlas bushing, pinning may be the only feasible fix to effect. Both the Logan and the SB-7 ratchet gears have extended hubs for easy placement of the retaining pin hole. The Lewis ratchet gear, using a Woodruff key, is more compact as is the bushed Atlas more compact, but the latter one is more complex to make. If I were replacing both the feed screw and the ratchet gear on an Atlas with new parts, I would most likely attach the ratchet gear directly to the feed screw via a Woodruff key and without a bushing. Also, if I were replacing the Atlas feed screw, I would look at the possibility of also replacing a perhaps also loose "Feed Nut S7-32". Fortunately, Dan Hill makes reproductions of this feed nut and offers them at a reasonable price. ACME thread taps are not cheap. If such a replacement was also a consideration, assurances should be made prior to purchasing the feed screw to insure that they have a matching thread. BTW, concerning the CNC machined ratchet case that you described and made a while back (and posted pictures of at our PIX site)--have you ever decided to produce any of these for sale? (We were discussing this here within the past week.) Art (Houston) ------- Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2004 16:43:02 -0000 From: "Don Kinzer" Subject: Re: Questions about making Atlas 7B parts --- In Metal_Shapersx~xxyahoogroups.com, volzmechatronicx~xxy... wrote: > [...]Dan Hill makes reproductions of this feed nut and offers > them at a reasonable price. [...] I bought one of Dan's S7-32 reproductions and am quite happy with it. You can find information on his several reproduction parts and manuals at: www.hillsgun.com/shopping/machineTool.htm In the past, he sold the Atlas feed nut on eBay and I was able to purchase mine for less there than directly through his site. He used to use the eBay ID 'hillsgun' but now uses 'd_mhill'. Among the items that he is listing currently is a reproduction belt guard for the SB7. Don ------- Date: Sat, 20 Nov 2004 15:29:46 -0000 From: "grouchy_old_fred" Subject: Update Re: Questions about making Atlas 7B parts Made some progress on the Atlas 7B leadscrew: Pressing the gear off the bushing revealed a straight pin and a really sad-looking bushing. It looks it had a table crash at some point. The pin had worked one end inside the bushing ID, leaving an imprint there and on the ID of the gear. It also looks like it made quite a few revolutions before it settled into place. Both the bushing and the gear were egg-shaped and the gear had wear and ratchet marks on one side. (Probably should look into the feed mechanism itself next.) Anyway, Clausing still sells the gear but not the bushing. McMaster - Carr sells a bushing, part number 7475 K2, fits the gear but needs to be cut to length. Their gear, part number 7813 K31, would work if 1/8" is removed from the thickness. I ordered the dimensioned drawing and a new gear from Clausing and hope to make the part Real Soon Now. Fred ------- Date: Sat, 20 Nov 2004 21:24:42 -0000 From: volzmechatronicx~xxyahoo.com Subject: Update Re: Questions about making Atlas 7B parts Fred-- Glad you were successful in contacting Clausing and getting the part drawing and the new gear. Successfully "winning" is always measured in such small increments. Since the new bushing probably will not have the "counter rotation" tabs as did the original Atlas bushing, you may wish to consider an alternaive method for mating the gear with the bushing. I have used, several times, a method using pins/threaded screws placed parallel with the axis of, in this case, the gear and bushing. In your case then, two opposing (at 180 degrees apart, and at 90 degrees to the tab slots in the gear) holes could be drilled at the circular periphery where the bushing slides into the gear. Either tension pins could be used to preclude rotation of the 2 parts or, better, these holes could be tapped for small flat head machine screws and then secured with an anti-slip "gripping" thread compound. Just a thought. Art (Houston) ------- Date: Sat, 20 Nov 2004 21:43:27 -0000 From: "grouchy_old_fred" Subject: Update Re: Questions about making Atlas 7B parts > Since the new bushing probably will not have the "counter rotation" > tabs as did the original Atlas bushing, But it does - that's what is so nice. All it needs is to be cut to 3/8" and drilled for the pin hole. I do think that roll pins and some flavor of Loc-Tite is in order, given that this pin is the primary X-axis locator and any little motion would quickly turn into major motion. Fred ------- Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2004 00:35:56 -0000 From: "scyvt" Subject: mounting SB-7 to cabinet Just recently I picked up a South Bend 7" in what appears to be use-as-is condition. To facilitate transport, the machine was separated from the cabinet by the previous owner. Now I am a little confused about the mounting arrangement as I go to remount the machine to the base. The 2 front mounting holes in the casting are clearance holes for the bolts -- obvious what to do there. But the single rear mounting hole in the casting is TAPPED! Why is that? Although a manual came with the shaper, there is no parts blowup included. I looked in the files section, but couldn't find anything. Anybody have a parts list? TIA, Steve ------- Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2004 05:59:16 -0000 From: volzmechatronicx~xxyahoo.com Subject: Re: mounting SB-7 to cabinet Go to "files" here and download the file "sbarmy7shaper.pdf. This is the South Bend manual with parts list and exploded drawings. You need a copy of Adobe Acrobat Reader (download for free from their site) to view. On page 32 of the manual is the exploded diagram dipicting the rear mounting "Hex Bolt #36" and its "Lock Washer #35" coming in from the bottom to screw into the tapped hole at the rear of the base. Art (Houston) ------- Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 17:23:17 -0000 From: "tox_medic" Subject: New Shaper User Hi folks: I'm a new shaper user/owner (just picked up a Craftsman 7") that needs a little help. I have attempted to set the automatic table feed, but when I engage the right/left handle, nothing happens. I've adjusted the bolt and feed rate arm as far as the end of the feed wheel, and still nothing. Am I doing something wrong, or is there a mechanical problem that one of you might have come across before that causes this? I didn't want to tear down the feed housing if this is just "operator error" since I have NO experience with shapers up to now. The rest of the shaper is in like new condition with perfect original paint, ways and fittings without any marks, rust or even wear (I don't think this shaper has had any use whatsoever), and under load, it makes the sweetest swishing sound without clunks or other bad noises at all. Other than the feed issue, it is Mary Poppins (practically perfect in every way)! Thanks in advance for helping a newbie, the rest of your articles on tooling,etc, have already been a great help, and I've already started on building Art's toolholder! John Camp verde, AZ ------- Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 04:19:04 -0000 From: "joe_sozanski" Subject: Re: New Shaper User John, if you haven't found it yet go to the files and look for a file called manuals. There is one there for an Atlas 7" shaper. The Craftsman is the same expect for the name plates. The parts list is pretty necessary to make sure of which parts are being discussed. Use the part numbers numbers to make it easier. Joe ------- Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 05:24:20 -0000 From: "tox_medic" Subject: Re: New Shaper User I found the manual right off the bat Joe, thanks for mentioning it. I would've mentioned part numbers, but I thought it might be too in-depth and/or confusing for my level of expertise and the quality of the question so I ommitted them. At your request, here are the parts I turned and attempted to adjust: S7-66 Screw and S7-30 nut in the S7-68A to both R and L ends S7-76 in both R and L directions ------- Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 06:41:38 -0000 From: "joe_sozanski" Subject: Re: New Shaper User Make sure the set screw on the feed lever is tight, mine works loose. Is S7-68A Turning? Is the feed screw oscillating back and forth? On my Perfecto shaper if there isn't a little drag on the feed screw it drags back on the return and then it doesn't catch but moves forward a bit on the cut stroke. If that's the problem just snug up the nuts on the end of the feed screw. It would probably be a good idea to open up the Rachet gear case S7-22DX and clean the parts and see if they are all there. Somebody may have borrowed parts! I tried a search but didn't find anything, I think others have had this problem. Joe ------- Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 20:55:51 -0000 From: volzmechatronicx~xxyahoo.com Subject: The Craftsman Atlas Shaper As far as I know, there were never any shaper doors, for the Atlas Press made shaper sold by Sears & Roebucks, that had a scripted "Craftsman" logo on the face of the door like the "Atlas" scripted logo doors had. The ones that I've heard of, I've never seen one, only have a "Craftsman" ID tag attached to the outside face. The other part of the equation is that I don't recall (my memory is worser n' worser every day) even having seen a scripted (looks like handwriting) "Craftsman" logo on anything. The "Craftsman" logos, which varied over the years, were all registered with the U.S. Patent Office, however, the best way to determine years of actual use is to refer to the annual (at least they were back then) Craftsman catalogs. A source of two Craftsman reproduction water decals, one with a clear background and one with a white one, is: http://www.homeshopsupply.com/logo.html If you use one of these decals, just be sure that it matches the age of your Craftsman tool being "re-badged". And, then, you might want to slide the decal itself onto a pre-shaped brass tag, shellac it, and then mount it with screw-drive pins. There is a Sears Archives on-line to which you can email questions about a particular Craftsman tool and, if it pleases them, they'll even post an answer on their web site. I've discovered, however, that their primary "archive" is, like mine, old Craftsman catalogs. For instance, let's say that your Craftsman shaper has the Model Number 109.1600 on its ID tag--who made it? Sears didn't nave their own factories, but depended, as they still do today, for outside manufacturers to provide the actual machines which were re-badged as "Craftsman". What Mr. Ralphie Roebucks IIIVXX of "Sears Archive" will do then, when he reads your query, is to go back into his stack of musty old catalogs and look for a shaper whose Catalog Number ends with the suffix "1600". Today, Ralphie IIIVX just happened to grasp, with his well-oiled Cheatoe- oranged pudgy digits, the 1954 Power Tools catalog, already well lubricated itself...in hues of orange. Opening to page 29 he finds a Craftsman 7-inch Metal Shaper with a Catalog Number of 9 A M1600F: Bingo! The "1600" is a match--he proceeds to then regurgitate the catalog description to you in his on-site reply, if he so deigns to reply at all. Gots to eats sum mo' of dem SAE 30 deep-fried Cheatoes, his brain-in-his-belly orders him...und pronto! !!!Arriba!!! So, who did, then, make this 109.1600 shaper...who greeze-ball didn't know of? A list of Craftsman providers comes in handy: http://www.owwm.com/Craftsman/Manufacturers-Prefix.asp It can quickly be determined, from this list, that your shaper, Model Number 109.1600 was made by...AA Engineering or Double A Products. Huh???? The only manufacturer that I know of that made a metal shaper for Craftsman was Atlas Press, and their prefix is "101". Another game. Sears also has a parts store on the web where you can enter the Model Number of a tool and it will output a parts list and/or a parts drawing...if you're lucky. Several years ago, I entered 101.16000 and got a "busy signal"--the "place" was still there, but it had been emptied. Try the Model Number for the Atlas horizontal mill --101.15500 and see what happens. A couple of years ago that stuff was still there...and fearing imminent re-discovery by the Seer-Sucker Suited Haus Polizei...and immediate erasure. Fun and games, down Craftsman's yella brick road. Art (Houston North: ruminating after a lite lunch.) ------- Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2005 04:05:23 -0000 From: "argon5w" Subject: Atlas Shaper manual online Jerome has posted scanned images of his Atlas shaper manual in the www.homemachineshop.com gallery. Look under manuals in the gallery. Richard ------- Date: Fri, 04 Mar 2005 19:12:52 -0000 From: volzmechatronicx~xxyahoo.com Subject: Sears Craftsman Logos For those wishing to spiff up that old Craftsman shaper for a spin about town, a series of 5 period Craftsman logos have been posted: Metal_Shapers_Pix>Photos>Craftsman Logos. The Atlas shapers that were rebadged as Craftsman had doors with a Craftsman logo tag affixed--but, why be satisfied with any one period: make one of each and wear as the situation warrants. Art (Houston) ------- Date: Fri, 04 Mar 2005 01:33:01 -0000 From: "tom_in_nh_03" Subject: Atlas 7B questions... Hello all, I have finished restoring this shaper...almost ready to work again. I need some answers to the following questions: I am missing the 2 compression springs (S7-170) for the ram's clamp. Does anyone have a part number from Grainger, MSC, or McMaster-Carr that is the same as the originals? The S7-25D housing does not rotate on S7-11A flange if the six screws that hold S7-64 bearing plate are tightened up (thus my table cannot be raised or lowered without binding up). If I leave them on just barely tightened, the housing will rotate as the table is elevated or lowered, just as it seems it should. I am concerned with leaving the screws just barely tightened as they could back out against S7-86 gear during operation - or should I not worry about them backing out?. Should I use loctite on the screws? Thanks in advance to all that respond, Tom ------- Date: Sat, 05 Mar 2005 20:17:25 -0000 From: volzmechatronicx~xxyahoo.com Subject: Re: Atlas 7B questions... Tom-- I waited a few days to see if one of our legion of Atlas owners would come to your assistance, but seeing none...it is probable that your questions don't affect them personally, either directly or currently. I don't have an Atlas, so I can't go out into the shop and test my ideas, but you can. I do have, however, the Atlas 7b manual to which I am now referring. See my specific comments below: > I am missing the 2 compression springs (S7-170) for the ram's clamp. > Does anyone have a part number from Grainger, MSC, or McMaster-Carr > that is the same as the originals? Fix it the same way that Atlas did the original engineering: trial and error. Measure the approximate physical space that the springs can occupy and then go to your local ACE Hardware and select appropriate various size springs for test. What is the purpose of the springs? To keep the clamp and block just right--sliding but neither too tite or too loose? (Don't choke that canary...or let it fly away.) Or to keep the loose fillister head machine screws somewhat captive? Or both? I vote on "both". > The S7-25D housing does not rotate on S7-11A flange if the six > screws that hold S7-64 bearing plate are tightened up(thus my table > cannot be raised or lowered without binding up). If I leave them on > just barely tightened, the housing will rotate as the table is > elevated or lowered, just as it seems it should. I am concerned with > leaving the screws just barely tightened as they could back out > against S7-86 gear during operation - or should I not worry about > them backing out?. Should I use loctite on the screws? DO NOT leave the screws loose. Looking at the design as depicted in the parts diagram, they're not meant to be loose. Clean with solvent such as acetone--both the threaded holes and the flat head machine screws, apply Loctite, and tighten. The design also "says" that the 25D-Housing should rotate about 11A-Flange. Is there a build-up of paint on the two sliding/rotating faces? I suspect that there is a paint build-up that precludes proper free rotation. Clean off the damn paint. If that doesn't work--it should--cut out a paper shim (to start) and place under the 64-Bearing plate, where it abuts against the face of the 11A-flange, tighten and reassemble and see if 25D-housing isn't free now. If removing the paint build-up doesn't work, very thin permanent brass shims should. Now it's your turn. Keep me apprised of your progress. Art (Rust City: Houston on the Bayou) ------- Date: Sun, 06 Mar 2005 00:26:56 -0000 From: "woody_wl" Subject: Re: Atlas 7B questions... The flange of which you speak is used to retain the bearing and part s7-25d. If the thickness of the s7-25d is thicker than the circular end portion of s7-11a then the unit will not rotate when raising the table. I would recommend you remove the flat plate s7-64 and see the witness diameters where the unit was rubbed. If the s7-25d is thicker cut yourself a washer with holes for screws to shim the s7-64 out far enough to clear. If you are an experienced machinist with access to a lathe you could modify the washer/bearing plate. I am assuming minimal tooling capacity. If so cut the shim washer even if necessary out of paper; (I suggest brass, aluminum cans work nice and cut with good scissors, not the wife's). Look through the e-mails -- you will find a site for a manual that will point you to the part numbers I have discussed. The shim washer should contact the bearing flange, same ID as existing and clear the die cast assembly s7-25d. My unit has two tapered roller bearings ang the bearing plate is not used to retain the bearing, feature that. ------- Date: Sat, 10 Dec 2005 18:26:35 -0000 From: "Art Volz" Subject: Re: WTB - Atlas 7" Shaper Larger Pulley Cover In Metal_Shapersx~xxyahoogroups.com, J R Williams wrote: > Dave You might consider fabricating a door for the shaper from a suitable sized cast iron skillet. I mentioned this to Art, many moons ago, and he came up with a real nice door for my Logan using a cast iron skillet, a section of square steel tube and a little "bondo" and paint. It works great after I installed it and made a simple spring catch. Next comes the final paint and a new name plate (that is another story and project) Joe W < Joe-- The Atlas door has a curve in it about 1/3 down from the top precluding use of a flat plate to fab one from. Your door was easier to do. Maybe, a heavy press could appropriately bend a 1/4 inch steel plate. Dave--I could provide you dimensions and a sketch if you want to roll your own from plate. Send me your snail mail if you want to go that way. Dan Hill has offered newly cast aluminum repros of the Atlas door-- the price was about $30-50--but, I didn't see them listed on his site this morning. Ask him: http://www.hillsgun.com . Finding a door on eBay is next to impossible--I lucked out a long time ago by asking a seller auctioning other Atlas shaper parts, but not the door...the door I got from him was the old door with the small bearing cut out on the lower left corner. Art ------- Date: Tue, 03 Jan 2006 23:08:20 -0000 From: "Charles" Subject: Atlas shaper questions with long post [Metal_Shapers] I received from a friend an Atlas shaper 7 B a few weeks ago. I have been slowly going through it and cleaning, oiling, and shimming it up, using the "Atlas Repair parts list for 7" metal shaper" as my source. (The machine sat in a cow barn for at least eight years that I know of, and who knows how many before that.There is / was lots of the barn goop on all surfaces.) With the exception of the belt guards, it appears that everything is there and in good shape. However, I have some questions and concerns that I could use some help with. First when I adjust the stoke, the shortest adjustment I get is 2.5 inches. If I adjust for the longest stroke, I can exceed the 7 inch mark and it will bind up on the forward cutting stoke. (All of this is being done as I turn it by hand! No powered running yet.) On the exploded diagram showing the bull gear assembly, part number S7-14a has one hole on the end opposite of the pin. Mine has two. Looks to be approx. 0.875 center to center, inline with the adjusting screw. There are signs that the S7 -15 crank gear hub nut stud has been hammered on sometime in the past and the six screws that hold the S7-53 plates on have had the counter punch drilled out. The screws are now once again counter punched but in a different place on the rim. So if you are still with me, here are my questions: Is the 2.5 inches of adjustment worth the trouble of tearing the shaper apart? Am I misunderstanding the setup instructions and 2.5 is the minimum travel? How do I get that stupid steel plate off the S7-16a ram lever? Next set of questions are about the ratchet feed. I have two S7-79 rods and one goes to the ratchet assembly for left or right motion, but the second one is just hanging down in the back. Is it supposed to attach to the back of the ratchet assembly? Is the S7-25D housing that comes off the main bearing adjustable? I tried to attach it but is too long by maybe 0.100. (I am double posting this on the atlas and shaper forums.) TIA. Charles in North Dakota ------- Date: Wed, 04 Jan 2006 00:36:50 -0000 From: "Don Kinzer" Subject: Re: Atlas shaper questions with long post Charles wrote: > Is the 2.5 inches of adjustment worth the trouble of tearing > the shaper apart? Am I misunderstanding the setup instructions > and 2.5 is the minimum travel? My recollection is that you can get down to zero stroke but I could be thinking of one of my other shapers. I don't have my Atlas any more (down to 2 shapers, now) so I can't check mine. > Next set of questions are about the ratchet feed. I have two S7-79 > rods and one goes to the ratchet assembly for left or right motion, > but the second one is just hanging down in the back. Is it > supposed to attach to the back of the ratchet assembly? > Is the S7-25D housing that comes off the main bearing adjustable? > I tried to attach it but is too long by maybe 0.100. My recollection is that the link attaches to the back of the S7-25 housing and that it should be free to rotate slightly, allowing you to connect the link. The other end connects to the back of the ratchet case. Since the table moves up and down, something has to move since the link is a fixed length. Here is a picture of mine assembled that might be helpful: http://www.kinzers.com/don/MachineTools/Atlas_7B_Shaper/atlas7b_3a.jpg Don ZBasic Microcontrollers http://www.zbasic.net ------- Date: Tue, 3 Jan 2006 20:03:05 -0800 (PST) From: ED MAISEY Subject: Re: Re: Atlas shaper questions with long post I am inclined to think that Don is correct, I have just taken a look at my atlas B7 and comfirmed it, the rear bar S7-79 attaches to a pivot under the S7-25 housing and the other end attaches to the centre bolt protruding from the back of the ratchet housing, I'm wondering if by raising or lowering the main table you might be able to assemble the back bar. FYI both bars have 4.750 centres. HTH. Edmund [Ed later] Charles, you should be able to reduce your stroke down to zero (just tried it on mine). If your machine has been dissambled at some time ie the pop marks on screw heads do not line up. When you adjust the ram stroke you must do it only when the ram is at the extreme return end of its stroke, then you loosen the crank nut half a turn or more and turn square end of shaft while watching the stroke pointer on the scale. When you have power to run the machine, the forward stroke should be slower than the backward stroke. [Ed later] Charles, I have just checked and found that as you raise and lower the table the part# S7-25D housing and #S7-24D guard, where one end of #S7- 79 rod is attached, the housing does swivel very slightly. ------- Date: thu, 05 jan 2006 20:11:32 -0000 from: "ed" subject: atlas 7in shaper, Charles, I think you have done a good job in decyphering your problem, good for you. Just looked at the manual and my machine, and my s7-14a block and pin has only one hole where s7-15 nut goes. It is also off centre and about .5625 from the end in. One thing on mine is a set screw at the end threaded into the outside end with a locking nut in line with the shank of the s7-15 nut. I imagine for added safety it's like a jib adjusting screw works, and I cannot find that item anywhere in the manual. Perhaps that was a modification from the factory. Your s7-15 nut needs to be in the outer hole, and I would suggest you either machine the outer hole bigger, that's if the nut is not a good fit and resize the hole with a tight bush making it a good fit on your nut. Or sleeve the nut shaft to fit the oversize hole, and as a precaution also add the jib system as described above, if you need dims I can copy mine and email you a dwg. (Do you have autocad?). By the way I replaced all my slotted screws with unbrako hex flat head, and used loctite threadlocker 242. Btw, I know the complete history of my machine and I am the only person to have dissassembled it, so I am pretty sure it is a factory add-on. Can any other member comfirm this? Good luck, keep us posted. Edmund ------- NOTE TO FILE: This last conversation continues in the Metal_Shapers group at Yahoo and is viewable through their archives. ------- Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2006 03:50:04 -0800 From: Philip Freidin Subject: New member with a bunch of questions [atlas_craftsman] I have just acquired a Craftsman Shaper and have a few questions :-) Some background: Metal working hobbyist, zero previous experience with shapers (i.e. have never used one, read about them in a book, saw one at a friends place), wanted to work on something that I could get my hands dirty on, and could not succumb to a CNC retrofit. I have found a manual at: http://www.uphill.f9.co.uk/pages/engineering/machinery/atlas/handbook/ that seems to pretty much match my machine. My machine has apparently not been used for the last 20 years. Only things missing seem to be the crank handle and the key that aligns the vice to the table. Here are my initial questions: 1) When the power cord is flexed, I can hear a crackling noise of the dried up rubber insulation (not plugged in, so not electrical noise). So I know I need to replace the power cord. Are there other electrical things I should look out for that are probably beyond their prime? Any things I should be careful about? 2) The two drive belts also seem to be somewhat frayed. Can I just go to the local car parts store and find something the same size, or is there something special I need to get. What are the specs for these belts (width, length, ...) 3) I went through the manuals oiling list and oiled everything in sight, but I didn't touch the grease in various places. Should the old grease be removed and replaced (and with what). Also the manual talks about oiling various points on a daily, weekly, fortnightly, and monthly basis. I assume this is for a machine that gets constant use. What do you recommend for occasional use by a hobbyist? 4) Any recommended cleaning solutions that would make the paint look nice without taking the paint off? 5) The cross feed does not seem to be working correctly. According to the manual, with the small lever on the ratchet case set to the R position, and the T-nut in the T-slot of the feed crank gear on the side that also is labeled with an R, the table should move to the right. On my machine, the table does move in the correct direction. The manual says that the movement should occur during the return stroke. On my machine, it happens during the cutting stroke, and you can hear the ratchet clicking during the return stroke. If I move the T-Nut to the L side of the feed crank gear, then the movement happens during the return stroke. Do I live with this, or is the solution to disassemble the feed crank gear box, and rotate this gear 180 degrees and then put it back? 6) There seems to be a lot of backlash on the cross feed screw, such that if I move the cross feed manually, and then leave it in the middle of its backlash range (almost 1 full turn), then the cross feed ratchet does not click, and instead the screw just rocks back and forth, and there is no movement of the table. If I snug the screw up in the right direction, then the ratchet feed works correctly. Is this normal? If not, what should I do to improve the situation. 7) Both the tool post slide screw and the cross feed screw seem to have a lot of backlash ( I am used to a mill with about .002 of backlash). What is normal for a shaper of this vintage. 8) Are there any other manuals I should look out for that would help me? Oh, I spent a wonderful Saturday afternoon and evening oiling and cleaning and reading the manual, and I have done my first two surfaces with the tool that came with the machine (probably last used 20 years ago. I didn't touch anything in this area, just added oil), and the results were beautiful. :-) Thanks for any advice, Philip Freidin ------- Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2006 08:55:52 -0500 From: "mertbaker" Subject: Re: New member with a bunch of questions I paid 600 for mine, a 7" South Bend, in excellent condition, with the base cabinet. It's the big ones, with the 24" stroke that are cheap. By all means, replace the cord, and certainly check sthe condition of the wires from the switch to the motor. Likewise, replace the belts. Just take the old ones to an auto parts store; they should have 'em, as should Sears, of course. If you order replacement parts, though, you'll pay a lot more at Sears. My advice is to study the way the feed pawl arrangement works; the shaper is one of the older types of machine tools, largely replaced by the vertical miller which does the shaper's work much faster. The operation of the feed is pretty much the same on all of 'em. They are fascinating machines though. Mert MertBakerx~xxverizon.net ------- Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2006 08:32:41 -0600 From: "jerdal" Subject: Re: New member with a bunch of questions You did OK, since you have the vise...they sell separately for as much as $250. 1) replace cord 2) Drive belts from anywhere, preferably a decent hardware store, but auto parts chinacheap will work. Clausing has the manual, although you mention having one???? If you mean a "how-to-use", look around for older Audels shop course manuals. They mostly cover shapers if from the 1960s and before. 3) Oiling: Ram most of all, a little each use (drops) other things less often, grease, I'd clean out the grease cups and refill, probably. Don't forget oil down the top oiler (goes to the crank), and also the oil hole inside the door. 4) The no-pumice version of orange goop works prety well. 5) The t-nut on the drive should be set for return stroke movement. It should slide to either side, put it on the one for return feed. 6) There is a tension nut on the left side..... 7) backlash is normal, but a lot means there may be a loose screw or the like. The bronze leadscrew nuts may be loose in the holes. 8) The Audels or similar old shop texts are great. JT ------- Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2006 15:05:05 EST From: jmartin957x~xxaol.com Subject: Re: New member with a bunch of questions Unless your ratchet is broken, that's the way it should be. First, you decide, for each new job, which way you want the table to feed - left to right or right to left. You choose a bit appropriate to that direction and set the clapper box. Then you set the ratchet assembly to feed the table in the direction you've chosen. Next, you set the T nut on the crosshead so that the ratchet feeds on the backstroke and ratchets on the forward, and to the proper amount of feed. And that's it. Providing that your motor is wired correctly, so that the forward ram stroke is slower than the return. If it's not, rewire it. [AND IN A FOLLOW-UP MESSAGE:] I've got an old Rhodes, I know that the Atlas and some of the others are the same. The ram is driven through a short link by a large slotted arm which is pivoted at the bottom of the shaper. The motor drives a pinion which drives a large bull gear. The bull gear has a steel block attached to it which runs in the slot in the arm. The block is adjustable on the bull gear (sort of like the T nut in the feed crosshead), and the further it is from the center of the bull gear the longer the ram stroke. The ram will go back and forth no matter which way the bull gear turns. But the strokes will be at different speeds, because for one direction the block is at the top of the bull gear and far from the arm pivot, and for the other the block is at the bottom of the bull gear and close to the arm pivot. The rotation of the motor should be such that, when the block is at the top of the bull gear, the stroke is forward. The faster return stroke means that you can run the shaper at a higher cyclic rate without exceeding the cutting speed for a given material or tool bit. Also that it can cut with more force. On the Rhodes, the access door is on the left side (facing the shaper from the front). Looking through the access door at the bull gear, it should turn clockwise. John Martin ------- Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2006 19:08:31 -0000 From: "johann_ohnesorg" Subject: Re: New member with a bunch of questions Very nice machine and a good catch with both vise and toolholder! 1. When you buy cables, get one that´s flexible (means a lot of small wires instead of one big one inside) in industrial quality. 3. Get rid of the old grease and find something similar (all purpose grease) at a local farm supply. Nothing fancy, just push it in with a press until it comes out on the sides of the slide bearings and forms a collar. Ball bearings ask for approx. 1/2 of the free space filled with grease. Look it up in the manual, I can´t tell you what goes where, since I own a different machine. Use bedoil (right word?), not engine oil. This makes a big difference. Take your time to oil the shaper before operation, then do the setup work. This usually gives the oil 5 minutes to get into the spots that should be lubed. Don´t hesitate to punch small through oilholes with a piece of copper wire, they may be clogged. 4. I cleaned mine with motorbike claener after I bought it. Then, I used car wax to get it to shine. I wipe off oil and dirt after work (usually takes less than a minute, I´m not too ambitious). It still looks great after half a year and 3 or 4 hours of use per week. I guess the shine will stay forever :) 5. Move the key, not the gear. This was set up the wrong way by the former owner. This will also clear your left and right feed problem. 6. I had the same effect when I did loose up the feedscrew by accident while taking off the handle. The ratchet needs a little bit of binding for the feed. But don´t overdo it. Also, don´t forget to lube it frequently or it may gall. 7. no idea here...if you have to be very precise, work with a dial indicator. Normally, a shaper is operated in one feed direction and then, and the end of cut, you wind it back. Depends on tool geometry and the surface you want to get... there are also tools that are good for both directions. 8. YES! GET ERROL GROFFS SHAPER CD FOR 10 BUCKS!! BEST BUY EVER! 8.1 the southbend 7" army manual is also very good. As a tip, buy some tool steel and play with the tool geometries and angles. I did and learned a lot on that afternoon. To try all tools listed on the CD by Errol, you need less than 10 blanks if you use both ends. Usually, if one tool doesn´t leave a nice finish, the other does. Cheers Johann Ps.: If sliding surfaces are rusted, then put oil on them and run the machine. Wipe it off frequently and relube until the oil stays clean. then, take apart, wipe clean and readjust. When I asked about a rusted ramway half a year ago, Art gave this tip. It works quite well! ------- NOTE TO FILE: These questions about an Atlas made shaper apply to most shaper brands, and have been answered in detail in conversations that are found here in the generic shaper files. Atlas/Craftsman folks should read all those files too. ------- Re: Atlas 7B Rachet Pinion Gear Pin Sheared [Metal_Shapers] Posted by: "Trueblood Jeffrey" jptruebloodx~xxyahoo.com Date: Tue Sep 5, 2006 12:47 pm (PDT) "jptrueblood" wrote: > I have an Atlas 7B shaper. Unfortunately the ratchet stopped > "ratcheting". On disassembly of the ratchet and ratchet case > assembly, I found that the Pin that holds the Bushing for > the Pinion Gear in place had sheared. I removed the fragments of > the pin and measured and inspected them. The pin is 1/8th of an inch. > Now, here are my questions: > What is the best type of steel to use for a new pin? > I notice a length-wise groove in the old sheared pin. Do I need to cut > a groove in the new pin to allow for a snug fit? Thanks, Jeff Art Volz replied: >Jeff--First go to "Files" here and download & print out the Atlas manual in "Manuals". I think that the pin that you are referring to, of which 2 are required, is depicted on PDF page 10 of 16 as "1/8" x 1- 1/4 Groove Pin. Remeasure both ends of your pin to mmake sure that both ends are the same diameter. http://www.mcmaster .com has TAPERED Groove Pins. I, myself, would see if a standard 1/8-inch Tension Pin would work first. If you decide that you really need the "GROOVE" and that a straight (non-tapered) Groove Pin is required, search other supply houses as someone will have them. Atlas didn't make these pins; these are off-the-shelf common hardware. Heck, even your local ACE Hardware may have them in stock...even in John Madden can't personally assist you. Art < Hey Art: Followed your instructions... Got the 1/8 tapered groove pins from McMaster, and it worked like a charm. Thanks for the info. Jeff ------- ATLAS 7 inch shaper ?'s [Metal_Shapers] Posted by: "brrylanier" lanierdudesx~xxaol.com Date: Sun Jan 14, 2007 10:49 am ((PST)) Hi all This is my 2nd post I have 2 ?s you guys can probably answer lickity split. I have aquired an atlas 7 b shaper in great shape and have been cleaning on it for awhile and I had to make a tool holder from a drawing that came from this site, my 1st post, thanks everyone that helped out. Anyway I need to know what the belt sizes are for this machine the ones on it are dry rotted and I cannot read #'s or letters I want something like a gates or equivalent. Also I cannot figure out for the life of me How a guy would say do index work internally such as a splined internal in a pulley or gear my little indexing head will fit on the table but no room left for stroke of machine I maybe missing something simple and I don't mean anything large I maybe expecting more out of this little machine than it is capable any thoughts or Ideas would be greatly appreciated. Thank you in advance Barry Lanier ------- Re: ATLAS 7 inch shaper ?'s Posted by: "Irby Jones" irbyratx~xxcox.net Date: Sun Jan 14, 2007 11:19 am ((PST)) I can answer the second question, or at least point you to Don Kinzer's web pages that show how he did it. BTW, you should graze around his site, as there is a wealth of information there. http://tinyurl.com/yxacn6 http://tinyurl.com/y3672y Irby in VA ------- Re: ATLAS 7 inch shaper ?'s Posted by: "gdstorrick" storrickx~xxconcentric.net Date: Sun Jan 14, 2007 1:23 pm ((PST)) I have an Atlas 7 with an AL290 from the motor to countershaft and a 4L310 from shaft to shaper. I suspect yours'll be the same. Gary ------- Re: ATLAS 7 inch shaper ?'s Posted by: "Reg Miller" regm00x~xxyahoo.com Date: Sun Jan 14, 2007 1:23 pm ((PST)) Barry: I have some photos posted in the gear cutting group of cutting an internal gear with a standard milling cutter. The secret is to extend the table with a plate. This week I will cut an internal spline, roughly same methods. cheers Reg ------- Re: ATLAS 7 inch shaper ?'s Posted by: "David G. LeVine" dlevinex~xxspeakeasy.net Date: Sun Jan 14, 2007 1:28 pm ((PST)) I am not a Shaper guru, but if the belts are intact, take them either to an Auto Parts Store or a power transmission specialty shop. AutoZone will generally match up belts for you. David G. LeVine Nashua, NH 03060 ------- Pete's ATLAS Wooden Shaper Benchstand [Metal_Shapers] Posted by: "Peter" gratewithunterx~xxyahoo.com Date: Sat Apr 28, 2007 10:16 am ((PDT)) I have uploaded some pictures of my Original Atlas "I think" wooden benchstand. I have removed the shaper and made another stand for it. I will send some more pictures of just the stand in detail soon. Any thoughts on this stand? I would like to hear them. Always Pete ------- NOTE TO FILE: Looking for an Atlas shaper vise and can't find/afford one? See the Shaper Vises message of Fri May 11, 2007 in the Shaper General file here. A generic vise (vice) solution for an Atlas or any other small shaper. ------- Atlas Feed Nut Question [Metal_Shapers] Posted by: "Tom Bellingham" Riderustyx~xxoptonline.net Date: Wed Jun 27, 2007 2:26 pm ((PDT)) Looks like I'll be making a new bronze feed nut for My Atlas. The original nut is pressed into the knee and my question is: Is this corrrect or is it jammed in there due to age, crud and wear? Should it correctly be more of a slip fit to permit some float as the knee is traversed -- or is it correctly a press fit? Thanks, Tom B. ------- Re: Atlas Feed Nut Question Posted by: "speedphoto300" speedphoto300x~xxyahoo.com Date: Wed Jun 27, 2007 4:10 pm ((PDT)) Tom: There is a setscrew holding the nut in place, through the bottom of the table. Mine was tight even after loosening the setscrew, stuck by crud. It's supposed to just slide in. Joe ------- Re: Atlas Feed Nut Question Posted by: "ED MAISEY" holmes_ca_2000x~xxyahoo.com Date: Wed Jun 27, 2007 11:37 pm ((PDT)) Tom, I think you will find it is a light hand push or light tap fit, according to my manual it shows no other form of location. Edmund ------- Re: Atlas Feed Nut Question Posted by: "Tom Bellingham" Riderustyx~xxoptonline.net Date: Thu Jun 28, 2007 5:18 pm ((PDT)) Thanks Joe and Edmund. Yes, there is a set screw holding the feed nut in place. It is accessed through a hole in the bottom of the knee casting. My machine was built in 1959 and the manual does not show the set screw. Once removed, the nut popped out with a tap on a brass drift. After cleaning the crud away from both nut and hole, it goes in with a nice slip fit. Tom B. ------- Rattling in Atlas Shaper - any ideas? [Metal_Shapers] Posted by: "the_two_yorkies" mrantosx~xxhotmail.com Date: Tue Dec 11, 2007 12:16 am ((PST)) Any comments from the experts on how much rattling is acceptable between the pinion and bull gear on an Atlas Shaper? I have not seen another one running so I have no way to judge. My best guess is that it is coming from the gears. Noisier than I'm used to on say change gears on a lathe. Seems there is no way to adjust the gear lash? Is that true? Thanks for any help. I purchased this recently and have been enjoying it. It looks to be in very good original condition mechanically and cosmetically except for that rattle! Oh, it also has a crack in the flat drip pan, so one more thing to fix. ------- Re: Rattling in Atlas Shaper - any ideas? Posted by: "speedphoto300" speedphoto300x~xxyahoo.com Date: Tue Dec 11, 2007 6:10 am ((PST)) Mine seemed noisy to me, there was a steady gear noise with a burst of louder noise at each end of the stroke. I replaced the pinion (it's stocked at McMaster Carr)and in the process found that the pin was loose in the pinion (the hole was worn oval). The bull gear had very little wear, but the pinion was noticably worn. After replacing the pinion and putting in a taper pin the noise is well within reason, for a straight gear set. I use spray heavy gear lube on the gears. Oh, the McMaster part number or the pinion is 6325K5. Mine is very quiet at the lowest speed, slightly louder at the next and a bit noisy on the highest two. Rather than a rattle, the noise is more of an intermittent hum. Joe ------- Re: Rattling in Atlas Shaper - any ideas? Posted by: "Toolman84x~xxJuno.com" dansdiablo Date: Tue Dec 11, 2007 9:19 am ((PST)) I'm sure the Atlas can handle a bit of ratteling between Bull & Pinion gears. Here is a 1 minute video of an Atlas Shaper I had for a short time: http://tinyurl.com/2ee3qd This Shaper was crusted with many years of shop crud, but did run very well. The odd noise you hear in my video is the shredded belt and pulley rubbing the guard. One of my current shapers, a 15 inch Davis & Egan does have a worn bull & pinion gear. I estimate that the gears are 50% worn away. You can hear a "Thunk" at the end of each stroke. I'm not too worried about it, it's already a hundred years old and will likely outlast me the way it is now. Here is a video of this shaper: http://tinyurl.com/3a7n4z Dan Portland OR ------- Re: Atlas Horizontal mill [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: "David L. Foreman" davelf11x~xxcox.net Date: Sun Apr 20, 2008 3:27 pm ((PDT)) You fellows should join the Atlas Craftsman Shaper and Milling Machine Yahoo Group: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Atlasshaperandmillingmachineusersgroup/ Dave Foreman ------- T-Nuts or Bolts that Fit [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: "pmcload" pmcloadx~xxyahoo.com Date: Tue Jun 3, 2008 9:32 am ((PDT)) I ordered some T-nuts from McCarr...I think they were the smallest they had...but they don't fit into the slots on the base of an Atlas 7" shaper without modification. Has anyone had any luck with a particular size that fits right out of the box? Patrick ------- Re: T-Nuts or Bolts that Fit Posted by: "Joe R" jromasx~xxcolumbus.rr.com Date: Tue Jun 3, 2008 12:38 pm ((PDT)) I ordered various lengths square headed 3/8" bolts from Fastenal for use on my 7B. I had to turn down the shank just under the head a little and take some off the height of the heads. I don't think anything out of the box will work. Joe R ------- Re: T-Nuts or Bolts that Fit Posted by: "n8as1x~xxaol.com" Date: Tue Jun 3, 2008 3:50 pm ((PDT)) ordered from enco ...they fit, but one size needed for top & another for side.....sorry ...don't remember the size or order # FWIW ...they are not that hard to make w/ a shaper & a good exercise ...made some for my rotary table, when none were available. best wishes docn8as ------- Re: T-Nuts or Bolts that Fit Posted by: "pmcload" pmcloadx~xxyahoo.com Date: Tue Jun 3, 2008 10:21 pm ((PDT)) Thank you. ------- T-Nuts or Bolts that Fit Posted by: "michael horne" mhorne0821x~xxyahoo.com Date: Wed Jun 4, 2008 4:52 am ((PDT)) Check Lenzkes... www.lenzkesusa.com They've got a berzillion of 'em... May be pricey though. I helped them move to their new location, and worked for them briefly. Mike Horne ------- Re: T-Nuts or Bolts that Fit Posted by: "mcgam2000" mcgam2000x~xxyahoo.com Date: Wed Jun 4, 2008 7:01 am ((PDT)) I got some from Rex Supply a company centered in Houston Tx. They are the 5/16 stud size. They fit perfectly. Mcgam2000 ------- Re: T-Nuts or Bolts that Fit Posted by: "Tim Ostley" Tim.Ostleyx~xxgooglemail.com Date: Thu Jun 5, 2008 3:37 am ((PDT)) Patrick: Make sure you measure all the T slots on your shaper. I made some T nuts for my Elliot 10M and only measured one slot. It turned out that all the slots were fractionally different and I had managed to choose the largest to measure! I had to re-machine the T-nuts so that they would fit the other slots. Incidentally the slots on the side of the table were significantly smaller than those on the top, probably because they had had much less use. Best Regards Tim ------- Re: T-Nuts or Bolts that Fit Posted by: "Matthew Tinker" mattinkerx~xxyahoo.com Date: Thu Jun 5, 2008 3:57 am ((PDT)) Tim, that's interesting, I found the same thing on my M10; there's 1mm of difference in the slots; the actual width of the part where the nuts go is the same on both faces. I made 12mm "T" nuts for mine they were fine on the top, but tight on the sides. I had just thought that somebody had trued up the top slots and not the sides. Regards, Matthew ------- Re: T-Nuts or Bolts that Fit Posted by: "Maarten van Veen" maarten.van-veenx~xxorange.fr Date: Thu Jun 5, 2008 5:08 am ((PDT)) Matthew: On my M10 the top ones measure 12.7 12.7 and 12.6 mm and the side ones 12.0 and 12.0. The wear on the top slides is too evenly spread to explain the variation by heavy usage. Maybe they wanted to cater for other equipment with imperial measurements? regards, Maarten ------- Re: T-Nuts or Bolts that Fit Posted by: "Matthew Tinker" mattinkerx~xxyahoo.com Date: Thu Jun 5, 2008 8:29 am ((PDT)) Maarten, I had vaguely thought that the width of the top slots on mine had been opened up to take 1/2" (12,7mm) hold downs. I think that my M10 came out of a school in the UK; there's virtually no wear anywhere so I'd not even thought of wear as a possibility! Regards, Matthew ------- Re: T-Nuts or Bolts that Fit Posted by: "Tim Ostley" Tim.Ostleyx~xxgooglemail.com Date: Thu Jun 5, 2008 3:47 pm ((PDT)) Matthew, I think you will find that the T slots are imperial. I have the dimensions written down somewhere so if required I can dig them out. I found that each of my machines which has T slots (4 of them) uses different size slots! At least I could standardise on two sizes of thread to clamp things (M6 / 0BA and M8). The M8 came about because the local hardware suppliers were out of 3/8 Whit studding and I needed to get the shaper T nuts operational quickly. The M8 is for the shaper. Regards Tim ------- Re: T-Nuts or Bolts that Fit Posted by: "Matthew Tinker" mattinkerx~xxyahoo.com Date: Thu Jun 5, 2008 4:49 pm ((PDT)) Thanks Tim, I made 12mm "T" nuts, it was a first for me. I made the thread as large as would fit in the slots; sometimes you can see the thread in the vertical of the "T"; it was a steep learning curve! For my mill which has 16mm slots, I'm going to use 14mm studding and bolts. Hold downs and "T"nuts are a great way to learn! They can be a bit off and work well! Good for beginners! Regards, Matthew ------- where do you look for wear in an Atlas 7B shaper? [Metal_Shapers] Posted by: "Tove Momerathsson" tovex~xxvoyager.net Date: Wed Nov 12, 2008 1:11 am ((PST)) I've finally got the time to start restoring the Atlas 7B shaper that I bought a few years back, and I'm puzzled by the condition of the machine. On the one hand, it's seen a few hard knocks. The little S7-76 handle that moves the ratchet pawl is busted. The square part of the S7-103 bevel gear shaft at the rear of the ram was busted off. And one hole in the S7-111 bushing inside the gear on the horizontal feed screw was not only egg-shaped, there was a crack on the side where the web was thin. On the other hand, while the machine was very dirty in terms of dried oil/dust over everything, after I get the grunge off there's almost no rust. The top of the table has been trued up by the shaper itself, but shows no signs of nicks or scrapes otherwise. There's some dirt in the T-slots, but no chips, nor have I seen chips in anything else that I've taken apart. The ways under the ram look nice. And I've even got a door! So I'm starting to wonder if I've got a machine that was bought for one particular job and then sat in the corner for the next forty years. Where do I look for signs of wear? Tove ------- Re: where do you look for wear in an Atlas 7B shaper? Posted by: "Joe R" jromasx~xxcolumbus.rr.com Date: Wed Nov 12, 2008 4:00 am ((PST)) Tove: Other then the busted shaft on the rear of the ram, everything else you mention is about normal. You may be able to make a new end with a smaller section that fits into a hole drilled into the end of the remaining screw shaft. I think you've found all the areas that wear in the horizontal feed parts. They were made from a "special" formula of zink called Zamak. Here's a person who may still have some replacement aluminum castings available. They are castings and you must machine them. I got the gearcase and cover from him and they turned out very nice. Be advised he's getting out of the casting business and might not have what you need but I found him to be very responsive and reliable. http://www.harpritsan.com/Castings.html Have you joined the Atlas shaper/mill group also? http://finance.groups.yahoo.com/group/Atlasshaperandmil lingmachineusersgroup/ I think most of the shapers have sat in a corner and gathered dust for the last 40 years. Joe R. ------- more Atlas 7B questions [Metal_Shapers] Posted by: "Tove Momerathsson" tovex~xxvoyager.net Date: Sun Nov 16, 2008 9:06 pm ((PST)) Well, I've got lots of grease-smudged baggies holding assorted parts and I've probably got everything disassembled that's easy to take apart. I've got the 4-sheave drive pulley off its shaft and the next things to come out are the two adjustable collars, S7-136L & R. After I make a little pin wrench to fit the holes in the collars, then what? I can't tell for sure looking at the parts list whether they're threaded on the outside, but it looks like they are. Are they? And are they both RH threads? After I took off the S7-25D housing, there's the S7-73 spacer in front of a ball bearing. Hit the spacer with a little Kroil and later on grabbed the spacer with pliers and tried to turn it. No luck. So more Kroil and I'll try again tomorrow. Does it take more than Kroil and patience? (And I hate to think about trying to get the bearing loose/out.) Lastly, the back S7-79 connecting rod is slightly bent, so one end is about 1/8" out of line with the other end. I haven't decided whether that's the result of someone overstressing the machine or because it had to be bent to get everything to fit, but the latter is my guess. Too many parts in that area - like the Zanak cases - would have broken before the connecting rod would have bent, I'd think. Tove ------- Re: more Atlas 7B questions Posted by: "houdini" houdini969x~xxyahoo.com Date: Mon Nov 17, 2008 9:54 pm ((PST)) Tove, S7-136 R&L have right hand threads. Just unscrew them. The washer behind S7-25D should just slide off. Mine came right off but the crank gear assembly was in such nice shape I didn't bother to take it off. Paul ------- another Atlas 7B question [Metal_Shapers] Posted by: "Tove Momerathsson" tovex~xxvoyager.net Date: Fri Nov 28, 2008 11:17 pm ((PST)) Well, I've got my Atlas 7B mostly apart, and the next step is to get the bull gear and whatnot out of the frame. After getting the S7-73 spacer off the shaft (wasn't fun -- had to wedge it loose by tapping single-edge razor blades between it and the bearing), the next step is to get the shaft out of the S7-171A bearing. Looking at , it looks like the bearing is on a shoulder on the shaft. Is that right? If so, all I have to do is make a tube to fit over the threaded part of the shaft and rest on the bushing, then hook the fingers of a gear puller over the rim of the S7-11A flange and then slowly push the shaft back through the bushing. A job calling for lots of Kroil and lots of patience. So, is that a shoulder on the shaft? Or are my eyes fooling me? Tove ------- Re: another Atlas 7B question Posted by: "speedphoto300" speedphoto300x~xxyahoo.com Date: Sat Nov 29, 2008 5:57 pm ((PST)) Good luck, and I really mean it. Everyone I know that has done this has sworn that the bearings were welded on. I was sure mine would be different, but no. Since my bearings were in good shape I left that assembly alone. Yes, I tried for a while to get the hub out, but after applying much force I decided it wasn't worth it. The back of the S7-11A flange is radiused, and you have to keep the puller jaws from slipping off, maybe a two part ring that goes around it. The diameter of the flange that the bull gear mounts to is bigger than the hole in the column, so you can't take the assembly out and work on it on the bench. If you get it apart (without violence) I'm interested in hearing how you do it. Joe ------- Re: another Atlas 7B question Posted by: "Tove Momerathsson" tovex~xxvoyager.net Date: Sun Nov 30, 2008 12:10 pm ((PST)) I've got a gear puller working now, so we'll see what happens. I don't think I have much choice here, since the grease in the bearings has turned to sludge -- I can barely turn the bull gear by hand. Granted, enough lacquer thinner or other solvent would take care of that, but then I'd be faced with the problem of re-greasing the bearings, including the inner S7-168A bearing that I can't even see. And the crank gear assembly, too. What I've done so far is to make a steel tube, 7/8" id and 1-1/8" od to fit over the thread. There's enough clearance at the bottom where the bearing is to make a little moat that I'll keep full of Kroil. On top is a piece of 1-1/8" aluminum rod drilled out at one end to fit over the 5/8" threads of the upper part of the assembly. To that, add one gear puller. I just started this today (had to buy a bigger gear puller) and so far just snugged up the gear puller and gave it a little bit more turn. The jaws seem to be grabbing the underside of the flange ok, so maybe I can get by without having to make a ring to fit around the housing. Tomorrow a little more Kroil, a little more turn on the gear puller. I'm patient ... Tove ------- Re: another Atlas 7B question Posted by: "speedphoto300" speedphoto300x~xxyahoo.com Date: Sun Nov 30, 2008 3:40 pm ((PST)) > since the grease in the bearings has turned to sludge -- I can > barely turn the bull gear by hand. Ahh, missed the part where they greased the bearings, you wouldn't be in this situation if they'd oiled them as they were supposed to. A not uncommon problem. If all you have to do is clean out the old grease then you will only have to deal with getting the shaft out of the outer bearing, hopefully you can leave the inner bearing on while you clean the bearing. Atlas sold the flange with the bearing already on it, something that resonates with those that have attempted to get the inner bearing off. Joe ------- Re: another Atlas 7B question Posted by: "Tove Momerathsson" tovex~xxvoyager.net Date: Sun Nov 30, 2008 4:34 pm ((PST)) After a few hours, I decided to give the gear puller just a little bit of turn with a torque wrench, to get an idea of how much it was pushing. Heh -- turned with no problem and now the outer bearing is out and the S7-11A flange has been removed. I suspect having the main casting on its side for three days and a puddle of Kroil in the "moat" had a bit to do with how easy it came out once the persuasion started. Next thing to do is to get the six Phillips screws out, and that won't be easy. It looks like the screws were all staked with a centerpunch to keep them from coming loose, and there's an 1/8" dia indentation at the edge of each screw. So I guess I get out the Dremel grinder and start gnawing away. Tove ------- Re: another Atlas 7B question Posted by: "Don Kinzer" dkinzerx~xxeasystreet.net Date: Sun Nov 30, 2008 4:56 pm ((PST)) > It looks like the screws were all staked with a centerpunch I loosened mine using an impact driver. They came loose with a couple of solid blows. Don Kinzer ------- Re: another Atlas 7B question Posted by: "Tove Momerathsson" tovex~xxvoyager.net Date: Wed Dec 3, 2008 7:25 pm ((PST)) Not having an impact driver, I had to do it the hard way, but it didn't take long. After "de-staking" with a Dremel and a carbide burr, four of the six screws came out with a Philips bit at the end of a 12" extension and a T-handle, although it took me several tries for each and a good bit of torque to get them broken loose. The other two screws didn't want to come out and several tries didn't accomplish anything other than trashing the Philips "+". So I drilled holes down the centers of the screws, tapped in a socket head screw extractor (the square kind) and grabbed it in a 12" Crescent wrench. And zip, they broke loose. If I'd have known how well Plan B worked, I would have used it on all six screws because it would have been a lot easier and faster. One disassembly mystery remains: the "Hub, Crank Gear and Pinion Shaft" parts list shows a 5/16"-18 x 1/2" Philips FH screw and a shim washer to the right of the S7-15 nut. Where's that go? It doesn't go in my S7-15 nut (it's got a solid stem) and as far as I can tell, there's no place in the hub or bull gear that's countersunk for a FH screw. Tove ------- Re: another Atlas 7B question Posted by: "Joe R" jromasx~xxcolumbus.rr.com Date: Thu Dec 4, 2008 4:26 am ((PST)) Tove. You owe it to yourself to get a impact driver. It would have easily removed those screws with damaging the heads. This one is only $4.99! http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=93481 I've owned my Craftsman impact driver for close to 40 years and it has never let me down on stubborn screws. The downward blow seems to be the key to how they work so well. Unless the heads are already buggered up they come out unscathed. Joe R. [AND IN A LATER MESSAGE] The round boss on the S7-15 nut goes through the hole in the S7-14A block, the flat head screw holds it in. The nut sticks out of the block in the opposite direction from the pin. When I reassembled mine I replaced the six Phillips head screws with socket heads, and Loctited them in. No problems since. ------- Re: another Atlas 7B question Posted by: "Tove Momerathsson" tovex~xxvoyager.net Date: Fri Dec 5, 2008 11:40 am ((PST)) > You owe it to yourself to get a impact driver. I've used an impact driver a few times, and I always had to give it a pretty hard whack to get it to work, so I didn't want to run the risk of possibly hurting the back gear or the bearing. If I'd been able to find the right size and shape pieces of scrap wood to put between the back gear and the main casting, then I'd probably have tried one. Anyway, the screws are out and they'll be replaced with socket head FH cap screws. Tove ------- Re: another Atlas 7B question Posted by: "Tove Momerathsson" tovex~xxvoyager.net Date: Fri Dec 5, 2008 11:49 am ((PST)) Mine was held in like the diagram shows, by a 1/4-20 set screw and a jam nut. As far as I can tell, none of the parts I've got have either the countersink for a FH screw or a hole tapped 5/16-18 that I can't account for. So either my 7B was built before Atlas figured out that they needed that screw or it was built after they figured out they didn't need it. Tove ------- Re: another Atlas 7B question Posted by: "speedphoto300" speedphoto300x~xxyahoo.com Date: Fri Dec 5, 2008 7:22 pm ((PST)) I made an album in the Metal_Shapers_Pix site that has photos of the 5/16-18 flathead screw installed, and the hole it goes into. The back side of the S7-15 nut is countersunk, and the hole in the S7-14A block is slightly countersunk as well. The S7-19* washers are shims used to get the nut axis matched to the S7-56A screw axis. The 5/16-18 screw pulls the nut into the plate and the 1/4-20 setscrew locks it as well. I guess they found they needed both. The photos are awaiting the usual approval process, shold be available soon. ------- Re: another Atlas 7B question Posted by: "erg576" graham_ex~xxsbcglobal.net Date: Mon Dec 8, 2008 7:14 am ((PST)) +1 for the hand impact driver. If you can swing it, go for the one made by Snap-On Tools. Get the 3/8" drive socket screw driver tips that are about 3" long in #2 and #3 if possible. I had a Craftsman and it was practically useless. A small engine mechanic friend lent me his Snap-On, and it was night and day difference. Since then (15yr +/-) I have not lost a fight with a phillips head screw. They are wickedly expensive, and I'm sure lots of board members have had success with Craftsman and others, but for the kind of projects I tackle it seems to be the only one that consistently does the job. A little scouring powder like Comet or Ajax in the head socket seems to help with getting a good bite. Snap-on also makes 'ACR' bits, which since have been copied, and they are superb. The side of the point has little ridges on them which also aids in getting a good purchase. I use those in the screwdriver, and when those slip, out comes the impact and a 2# drilling hammer (followed by the reluctant screw). Good luck! ------- Re: another Atlas 7B question Posted by: "Alan R. Lapp" alanlappx~xxlevelfive.com Date: Mon Dec 8, 2008 7:48 am ((PST)) Valve grinding compound works extremely well. a ------- atlas shaper [Metal_Shapers] Posted by: "karl haak" karl_haakx~xxyahoo.com Date: Sun Feb 1, 2009 6:11 am ((PST)) I recently purchased an atlas 7 inch shaper minus motor and pulleys. Can anyone tell me what size and speed motor to use and what size pulleys? I would appreciate any help i can get. Thanks ------- Re: atlas shaper Posted by: "Richard Sutcliffe" ras1x~xxuniserve.com Date: Sun Feb 1, 2009 9:59 pm ((PST)) Karl: Motor - a 1/3 HP, 1740 RPM capacitor start or 1/2 HP split phase or capacitor motor. A larger motor is NOT recommended. Pulley - motor - 2" Pulley - countershaft - 6 1/2" Both "vee" type ------- Re: Dimensions needed (S7-163 and S7-170) [Metal_Shapers] Posted by: "speedphoto300" speedphoto300x~xxyahoo.com Date: Wed Mar 18, 2009 7:51 am ((PDT)) > My Atlas 7B shaper table feed screw goes back and forth when ratchet is engaged. Have a sheared tab on S7-163 - I believe it is a single internal tab washer / shim. Would someone mind taking theirs off to accurately measure it? So far I can guesstimate that ID = .375, OD = .625, thickness approx. .050", tab approx. .0938" both ways. < Can't help you with the tab washer, but mine doesn't even have one. It and S7-181 were replaced with a 1/8" bronze washer before I got the machine and it's worked that way for years. The problem with the feed behaving this way is that the screw moves too easily, tightening the two jam nuts to add friction is the answer, the bearing washer helps. Some people use a nylon washer, works just as well. In the past, when I needed such a washer, I wound up making one with a file. Joe ------- Re: Dimensions needed on S7-163 and S7-170 Posted by: "Tove Momerathsson" tovex~xxvoyager.net Date: Wed Mar 18, 2009 8:26 am ((PDT)) tom_in_nh_03 wrote: [snip] > Finally, I am missing both springs (S7-170) that go inside the > ram top clamp. Could one post these dimensions (length, ID, OD, > and spring thickness) also? Spring is here ... 0.408" long, 0.213" ID (passes a #3 drillbit), 0.315" OD, 0.044" wire, has 5-1/2 turns with the top and bottom wound flat and then ground flat. These springs aren't particularly critical -- you just need enough oomph to push the S7-27 clamp away from the ram when you loosen the handle. And check to be sure you're actually missing the springs. In my case, there was enough dirt and grime inside the holes that it didn't look like the springs were there. They fit tightly enough that they won't fall out if you turn the clamp upside down -- they have to be pulled out with a bent paperclip or other exotic tool. Tove ------- Re: Replacing motor on Atlas 7B shaper [Metal_Shapers] Posted by: "Chris" in2steamx~xxwi.rr.com Date: Tue Jun 9, 2009 3:36 pm ((PDT)) arthur.marks wrote: > For those of you who have replaced the motor on your 7B: > Does it matter, really, what the frame size is? Other than the > mounting plate with holes that match no known NEMA or IEC standard, > is there any issue with belt alignment, etc.? Thanks Arthur I added a motor to mine as I had no motor or motor mount, I used a resilient mount motor of 1/2 HP 48 frame it made 3 of the four holes as I recall I made the fourth hole fit by drilling it out. The solid mount motors were no were near the old style cast boss motors and were harder to adapt as they needed a subplate to mount. I used a fenner power twist belt, which runs smoother then normal vee belts and can handle misalignment a little better although there really was not much if any. The only problem I have had is that the belt cover does not fit quite right but that is a motor height adjustment I just have not made yet. Chris ------- NOTE TO FILE: There is a discussion of shaper vises versus milling or other vises recorded here in the file "Workholding". The discussion starts on Jul 1, 2009 and is called "Milling vise vs shaper vise". The Atlas metal shaper vise is the vise primarily discussed. ------- Atlas 7B Shaper part needed - HELP! [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: "vanirv6" swpruettx~xxcomcast.net Date: Wed Sep 30, 2009 7:36 pm ((PDT)) Greetings all, I am in the process of refurbishing an Atlas 7B shaper I recently purchased. Up until today, everything was going very well. Then I discovered that the feed housing (Part # S7-25D) had been fractured and a very poor repair attempt had been made to return it to service. Needless to say, the damage is severe enough that I can't justify trying to save it. Does anyone out there have a new/used housing in good shape they are willing to part with? Any help would be greatly appreciated! Regards, Sven Pruett ------- Re: Atlas 7B Shaper part needed - HELP! Posted by: "jerdalx~xxsbcglobal.net" Date: Wed Sep 30, 2009 9:24 pm ((PDT)) The best plan is probably to machine a new one. Any old one will be just as susceptible to breakage as the old one, and there are probably many fewer of those castings than there are otherwise workable shapers. It is considerably simpler than the S7-22DX feed and ratchet gear housing ... it looks like there should only be one critical center distance, that between the shafts for S7-86 gear and S7-68A gear. That and the thickness so that the S7-64 plate will hold it correctly. The outside is not critical, other than to credibly fit the S7-24D guard. And if you machine it out of block aluminum you can have a "billet" feed housing, which is "obviously better"! Somewhere I have drawings I made of the critical fit features of most of those zamac castings. JT ------- Re: Atlas 7B Shaper part needed - HELP! Posted by: "Sven Pruett" swpruettx~xxcomcast.net Date: Thu Oct 1, 2009 5:36 am ((PDT)) JT: Gave that some thought but had hoped to find one quickly so I could return it to service. Aside from that, I am currently without a functional mill and the machining would present some challenges as a result if I endeavored to go the "billet" route. In any case, I would really appreciate copies of your drawings if you happen to run across them. I am very new to Atlas shapers (and shapers in general) and I really appreciate your taking the time to help me with ideas and suggestions. I suppose another option would be for me to pattern and cast a new housing. I do have an aluminum foundry in my shop that hasn't been doing much lately, but there again, the time issue of making patterns and casting the part comes back into the equation. I sure sound LAZY don't I? 8^) Sven Pruett ------- Re: Atlas 7B Shaper part needed - HELP! Posted by: "old2l63" oldtoolx~xxfvi.net Date: Thu Oct 1, 2009 5:59 am ((PDT)) Sven: If you have all the pieces, and can piece them together as a pattern, sent it to Cattail foundry. Prices are reasonable, and turn around is quick. http://wiki.owwm.com/Default.aspx?Page=FoundrySources&AspxAutoDetectCoo kieSupport=1 You'll still have to machine the casting, but it will have an authentic looking part. (If that is important to you.) Mike ------- Re: Atlas 7B Shaper part needed - HELP! Posted by: "jerdalx~xxsbcglobal.net" Date: Thu Oct 1, 2009 6:40 pm ((PDT)) Having the pattern and getting a casting won't help a lot, you still need to finish machine the part, which will need a mill also. With that particular part, I think mostly faceplate work would allow you to make a functioning part, faceplate with some in-the-lathe milling. It's worth while having some "residual" milling capability in the lathe, just for this sort of thing. The mill may be "down", or maybe you don't have one. I used a 7B as my "mill" for quite some time.... even made bevel gears on it. And I have milled on the lathe, although I do NOT particularly like it. JT ------- Re: Atlas 7B Shaper part needed - HELP! Posted by: "old2l63" oldtoolx~xxfvi.net Date: Fri Oct 2, 2009 5:16 am ((PDT)) If you do not have milling capabilities, you could try filing. Lay it out. Use a surface plate. Keep track of critical values. Use good files. In my high school, we had an old time shop teacher. You got a small block of stock to create a 1 inch square cube.+/- .005. Had to use files only. ------- Re: Atlas 7B Shaper part needed - HELP! Posted by: "vanirv6" swpruettx~xxcomcast.net Date: Sat Oct 3, 2009 10:55 am ((PDT)) Thanks for the responses to this. While I still would like to purchase an original part, I have contacted Clausing and am purchasing a copy of the original part print. As I have foundry capabilities in-house, I plan to pattern the part as a new aluminum casting and will add the features necessary to allow the entire part to be machined using only a lathe, drill press and hand tools (at least that's the idea). The plan at the moment is to cast the parts in 319 alloy and allow enough stock to install an oilite or bronze bushing in the shaft bore for good wear characteristics. Now my brain is getting wrapped around the idea of preducing patterns for all of the zamac (zinc-alloy) castings in the machine. Granted they won't be restoration-quality originals as I intend to add material and simplicity wherever it is desired/required.......purists beware! In the end, I suspect I will be my own best customer, but I am thinking of the possibility of making castings available to whomever wants them. Just not sure of the demand...... Regards! Sven Pruett ------- Atlas shaper can not loosen stroke length hand nut [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: "kurculese" kirk.reinholtzx~xxjpl.nasa.gov Date: Fri Oct 22, 2010 8:28 pm ((PDT)) Hi all. I wonder if anybody can help me. I'm asking here before I get carried away applying force... When I attempt to adjust the stroke length on my newly acquired Atlas shaper, I find that I cannot loosen the hand nut. I have tried two ways: (1) Ram all the way back, hold hand nut, rotate square shaft clockwise (right). There is no movement between the hand nut and the square shaft. (2) Rotate hand nut left. Again, nothing seems to move. It is currently set at maximum stroke. Any advice?? Thanks in advance... ------- Re: Atlas shaper can not loosen stroke length hand nut Posted by: "Doc" n8as1x~xxaol.com Date: Fri Oct 22, 2010 8:42 pm ((PDT)) FWIW ...hand nut on mine shows evidence of a pipe wrench application.... a STRAP wrench wud be a way better answer. ( used by plumbers for scarless chrome pipe manipulations....)...be certain of direction of turn ...just off hand now, i cant remember....if no one else chimes in, i will check tomorrow...also judicious tapping a wrench w/ a deadblow or lead hammer can initiate movement when force is ineffective, best wishes docn8as ------- Re: Atlas shaper can not loosen stroke length hand nut Posted by: "kurculese" kirk.reinholtzx~xxjpl.nasa.gov Date: Fri Oct 22, 2010 9:51 pm ((PDT)) That worked, thanks! I put a wrench on the square drive, held the hand nut, and rapped lightly on the wrench. I felt it move ever so little, then switched to hand force. Now it adjusts fine over the full range. Funny all the little things you find in a new machine. ------- Re: Atlas shaper can not loosen stroke length hand nut Posted by: "Rexarino" rexarinox~xxgmail.com Date: Fri Oct 22, 2010 9:50 pm ((PDT)) From the Atlas manual posted by Scott Logan on the Metal_Shapers yahoo group: "To adjust the stroke length, place the crank on the square-end shaft inside the large hand nut which revolves with the bull gear. Hold the hand nut with the left hand and turn the crank a half turn to the right with the right hand. This will free the crank shaft.... THE RAM MUST BE AT THE EXTREME RETURN END OF STROKE" (emphasis - mine) "NEVER STRIKE THE HAND NUT WITH ANYTHING" (emphasis - in the manual). If you already knew this, sorry to waste your time. Rex ------- Atlas shaper cross feed how much drag is "right"? [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: "kurculese" kirk.reinholtzx~xxjpl.nasa.gov Date: Fri Oct 22, 2010 10:04 pm ((PDT)) I just got my new Atlas shaper. I've been adjusting everything, tightening loose parts, lubricating, etc. I just put it under power. Sounds great, moves great. I noticed the cross slide feels a tad tight: Tighter than on my lathe, for example. If I push the table sideways with maybe 15 pounds of force, the feed screw "floats", telling me the drag is in the ways/gibs/etc, not in the screw. The question is, is it the "right" amount of drag? I normally wouldn't worry, but I see that cast zink ratchet assembly and get kinda worried about the drag. Thanks in advance for any advice! ------- Re: Atlas shaper cross feed how much drag is "right"? Posted by: "Joe R" jromasx~xxcolumbus.rr.com Date: Sat Oct 23, 2010 3:58 am ((PDT)) You need a little drag. If you don't have it the ratchet pawl will just rotate the feed shaft back and forth. ------- Atlas 7b metal shaper problem [Metal_Shapers] Posted by: "dougalabama" fielddoug502x~xxgmail.com Date: Sun Dec 2, 2012 4:09 pm ((PST)) Hi all -- very new to the shaper world but very intrigued -- but I seem to have a problem that I was hoping someone could give me a little direction. The ratcheting gearbox only works when it wants to. I hear it clicking but the table doesn't advance -- the lever to change direction is hard to find neutral and get it to stay in neutral. Before I open up the gearbox and ratchet assembly, are there any tips or suggestions on how to proceed and what I am likely to find? The machine is in very nice shape does not look abused at all. I have the manual and parts break down. ------- Re: Atlas 7b metal shaper problem Posted by: "alan lapp" alanbataarx~xxyahoo.com Date: Sun Dec 2, 2012 5:39 pm ((PST)) I have an elderly Rhodes shaper, and it requires frequent lubrication of not only the ratchet assembly, but also the lead screw assembly (both ends, and the nut) in order to advance properly. a ------- Re: Atlas 7b metal shaper problem Posted by: "Grady Ewing" close_ratio1971x~xxyahoo.com Date: Sun Dec 2, 2012 7:08 pm ((PST)) This is the same problem I had with my Atlas 7B. I just removed the ratchet assembly and "cog"/gear_then_cleaned_the_/index.html"cog"/gear, re-lubricated, and assembled. No problems since. ------- Re: Atlas 7b metal shaper problem Posted by: "Rexarino" rexarinox~xxgmail.com Date: Sun Dec 2, 2012 10:24 pm ((PST)) My shaper (not an Atlas) needs a wave spring washer under the retaining nut on one end of the feed screw to keep it from moving while the ratchet advances. The alternative is a very touchy tightening of the retaining nut. This may not apply to the Atlas shaper. ------- Re: Atlas 7b metal shaper problem Posted by: "Joe R" jromasx~xxcolumbus.rr.com Date: Mon Dec 3, 2012 5:16 am ((PST)) Go very cautiously, the only parts available for the ratchet box are what you can fabricate. They are made of Zamak that is very fragile. There's a very active Atlas Shaper and milling machine group here you may want to join too. http://finance.groups.yahoo.com/group/Atlasshaperandmillingmachineusersgroup Joe ------- Re: Atlas 7b metal shaper problem Posted by: "Doc" n8as1x~xxaol.com docn8as Date: Mon Dec 3, 2012 1:53 pm ((PST)) the backlash must be taken outwhen changing direction, before the feed will kick in...just crank the table in the direction you are going, then throw in the feed in that direction ...when changing direction, just move the crank till the lash is out & if all is well, it will then feed... best wishes doc ------- New to the discussion group - new Atlas 7B owner [Metal_Shapers] Posted by: "carbure2003" guycadx~xxnetzero.net Date: Sun Dec 9, 2012 1:31 pm ((PST)) I bought a Atlas 7B shaper about a month ago. Acccording to the seller, I am probably the 4th owner of that machine The machine seemed to be in good condition. It is not missing any component. There was some minor damages noted after I put back the machine together in my basement. There is a chip on the table, probably because of overtorquing the fastener bolts for the vise. (Not too serious.) The tool post feed screw was slightly bent, as well as the belt tensioner lever. The machine is working fine even though there is some wear on the slides. In order to compensate for this wear, I started scraping the slides on the cross rail. I will also need to replace the feed screw that shows major signs of wear (I will cut a new one on my lathe this winter). (For your info, I completely re-scraped a South Bend 10K lathe a few years ago... a shaper has much smaller sliding surfaces... no big deal) While dismantling the machine last night in order to chase slides with wear, I noticed that the machine was re-painted at least once. Right now, it is painted medium grey. Under a tally plate, it is painted a dark grey (same color as my Atlas milling attachment). The inside of the gear cover is painted a different colour, same colour as my Craftsman lathe (light grey colour used on mid 1970 machines). I was wondering if somebody has an Atlas 7B shaper with its original coat of paint. I feel it is strange that 3 different colours were used for the same machine. Right now, I believe the original colour is close to my Craftsman lathe. Any suggestion on original colour? Guy Cadrin ------- Re: New to the discussion group - new Atlas 7B owner Posted by: "Richard Sutcliffe" ras1x~xxuniserve.com Date: Sun Dec 9, 2012 4:19 pm ((PST)) Welcome aboard Guy. I'd send you a picture of mine, but every time I photograph it the colour is different. I'd say the dark try is closer. Find an hidden spot and sand through the paint layers to the primer. Looking at the feathered edges of the sanded spot; after using at least 600 grit and moistening the spot should be pretty accurate. I'll have to open the outside doors one day and try photographing again. Richard Sutcliffe Atlas 6B shaper Atlas MFB mill ------- Re: New to the discussion group - new Atlas 7B owner Posted by: "Flywheelers Car Club" flywheelersccx~xxgmail.com Date: Sun Dec 9, 2012 5:39 pm ((PST)) I got my 7B from a votech instructor that bought it from the school when he retired in 1979. So that made him the second owner. My shaper is still in its original paint. It's a dark grey with orange belt covers. The tool kit is black. Joe ------- Re: New to the discussion group - new Atlas 7B owner Posted by: "guycadx~xxnetzero.com" guycadx~xxnetzero.net Date: Sun Dec 9, 2012 5:40 pm ((PST)) In my case, depending on where I look, I find 3 different colors. Belt tension lever, inside of the cover and a few other small spots are light grey/green as my Craftsman lathe. Under the small Atlas sign on the cover, it is dark grey. Belt covers seem to have been painted dark grey as well. There is no real rush on the color pattern as I won't paint it until the spring. Scraping of the cross rail may take longer than I thought. Seems I have 0.002" wear on the upper slide. Guy Cadrin ------- Re: New to the discussion group - new Atlas 7B owner Posted by: "Flywheelers Car Club" flywheelersccx~xxgmail.com Date: Sun Dec 9, 2012 6:44 pm ((PST)) That's the same color as mine. I see yours doesn't have the belt guards making it a 7. The 7B has B for belt guards. ------- Re: New to the discussion group - new Atlas 7B owner Posted by: "Joe R" jromasx~xxcolumbus.rr.com Date: Mon Dec 10, 2012 4:57 am ((PST)) Actually Belt guards don't make it a "B". What makes his a "B" is the extended base with the foot supporting the front of the "knee". Belt guards like a cabinet or cast iron legs. ------- Re: New to the discussion group - new Atlas 7B owner Posted by: "Grady Ewing" close_ratio1971x~xxyahoo.com Date: Mon Dec 10, 2012 6:53 am ((PST)) Flywheelers My tag says 7AB it has no belt guards and that is consistent with an advert that I located on the internet that specifies 7AB as having no belt guards. I don't think the B was for belt guards unless the A refers to some Latin word for "no" or "not". Grady ------- Re: New to the discussion group - new Atlas 7B owner Posted by: "Flywheelers Car Club" flywheelersccx~xxgmail.com Date: Mon Dec 10, 2012 7:29 am ((PST)) That's interesting, I guess what I read a few years ago was an untrue statement then. I apologise to the group for the statement. ------- NOTE TO FILE: Actually he started an interesting side-conversation that led to more good info on Atlas model numbers. ------- Re: New to the discussion group - new Atlas 7B owner Posted by: "Jim S." mrjschmidtx~xxhotmail.com Date: Mon Dec 10, 2012 4:02 pm ((PST)) Welcome to the group. I too have an Atlas 7B. With all the talk about colors I am surprised no one commented on your plan to scrape the ways. It has been a few years since I went through mine, but the sliding ways were set by removing layers from the shim packs that were originally installed as part of the factory fitting. These are strips of brass shim stock that were tinned together and fitted between the cross slide and the hold down plate. The idea was that if you developed say .002 play in a sliding way, you just peeled off .002 worth of shims, and you were back in business. Have these shims been 'used up' on your machine? They might still be there under a layer or ten of dried way oil. I had to take .005 off of my ram shim pack, but that took care of the tool chatter I got as an accessory when I bought my shaper (grin). I think you will enjoy your shaper. They are a relic of a more relaxed age of machining, but amazingly versatile even today. Jim (Just a guy who likes to build stuff) ------- Re: New to the discussion group - new Atlas 7B owner Posted by: "chrisw" in2steamx~xxwi.rr.com Date: Mon Dec 10, 2012 6:21 pm ((PST)) Guy, Jim has a great point about scraping the ways on these machines. You may find with box ways that you are just wasting your time by scraping. Mine is at its last shim and she is starting to need to be tightened, the proper procedure would be to mill/plane/shape off "x" amount and apply shims so you have some adjustment. The machines wear pretty quickly, not to mention it will be very tight if you get a high contact area with scraping. Without gibs it's going to be a bear once you get wear, they are not known for being the most accurate machines to begin with anyway. Don't get me wrong, scraping is good, but don't spend a lot time doing that when you come to find out you need to machine it down some in the end anyway after you have done that work. I don't know about here but I belong to other atlas/craftsman groups and the color topic has been beat to death over and over again. There is no factory gray, it has over the years greatly varied (from nearly black to very light blue gray) so my only advice is, paint it with a color you are comfortable with, if I were to do it again it would be green or red. Gray is hard to work with if you really plan on using the machine, green, white, red, and brighter colors work great against steel/AL machined parts. The Model AB is a rare bird (like the 7 and 7a), there are few mentioned, mostly it has been considered a special order. The sequence or order of the atlas 7 was like this. It started with the 7, it could be ordered as an "a" without guards. The 7b was the modified version of the 7 which had the foot and extended casting. It could be ordered for a few years (early war era) as a "7AB" which shipped without guards. The 7 is often incorrectly referred to as a 7a if it has a short base and no foot, even though it may or may not have guards. Best Regards, Chris ------- Re: New to the discussion group - new Atlas 7B ow ner Posted by: "guycadx~xxnetzero.com" guycadx~xxnetzero.net Date: Mon Dec 10, 2012 7:18 pm ((PST)) Inspection of the slides revealed about 0.002" of wear in the middle of the cross rail (including the side that slide on the retainer plates). Removal of shim would not have solved the binding issue. I started marking the ways with my straight edge and surface plate. So far on 2 sliding surfaces I had a very bad contact (less than 0.5" at each end). So far I have scraped the vertical column (there was traces of corrosion, like if water had spent time on the sliding surface), mating slide, as well as the table slide on the cross rail (most important job). I still have to ensure that both sides of the surface are parallel, then I will be in position to re-shim the slides. Next surfaces will be the knee, where I suspect there is wear as well. If I am not disturbed by unexpected projects, I should have the shaper back together by Sunday. (Manufacture of the Knee feed screw not included as it doe not affect the performance of the machine.) I will have some gibs to scrape for my milling machine after that. From experience (South Bend Lathe scraping), when you have good mating surfaces with gibs well adjusted, you get the best performances. By the way, my shaper came with the original repair part list (not a photocopy) in very good shape. I have an excellent scan of the document (much better than the one in the file section of this discussion group). Your last comment..... why do you think I bought a shaper? There are some operations that are difficult to achieve on a milling machine that will be easy on a shaper (internal key way for instance). Guy Cadrin ------- Re: New to the discussion group - new Atlas 7B ow ner Posted by: "chrisw" in2steamx~xxwi.rr.com Date: Wed Dec 12, 2012 12:05 pm ((PST)) Guy, Did you hand scrape the whole table way down the .002? that is a lot of work. When I was taught to scrape we would maybe take .0001 off in one cross hatch pass. Now if you have a Biax or the like that is a different story. You can get peel away shims through mcmaster-carr, they work just fine if you have gasket punches. I have screwed up my ram wipers about a half dozen times now from cutting dovetail work, I keep pounding them back into shape one would think I would manage to remember. Otherwise you can use brass plates and felt I have seen a few do that. The original ones were composite or least when I got my machine they were to my knowledge they are no longer able to be purchased. Once you have the table tightened up you want to shape the table top, a couple thou. The front support is going to give you problems; it always does. I try and use the support slide with oil and watch it displace out. Also when you use the machine for extended periods check your ram way bolts, they like to loosen up I will after an hour so of running find I start getting a little ripple in the work. its time to check them. My old girl is getting pretty beat though and its time to take her apart and go through her again. Best regards, Chris ------- Re: New to the discussion group - new Atlas 7B ow ner Posted by: "guycadx~xxnetzero.com" Date: Wed Dec 12, 2012 2:11 pm ((PST)) This is exactly what I had to do. Took about 3 hours to get to baseline and one or 2 hours of touch up. This was the most worn surface. A carbide scraper is much more agressive than a HSS scraper. However, so far, for me HSS scraper gives a better surface finish. I finished it off with a HSS Scraper. I fixed my plates with a hammer, pliers, and other hand tools. I should start putting back together the machine tonight. I am looking forward to see shimming issues I will have after scraping. Hopefully I will no longer get binding. Guy Cadrin ------- Re: New to the discussion group - new Atlas 7B ow ner Posted by: "Jim S." mrjschmidtx~xxhotmail.com Date: Wed Dec 12, 2012 3:34 pm ((PST)) Guy, I think I still have a couple of square feet of thick felt laying around in my 'neat stuff' pile in my shop. If you want a chunk, just contact me off group and I'll be happy to snailmail you a chunk. If the rubber parts are sheet stock, I may be able to help you there too. I must be one of the world's worst stock hoarders -- I've got a little of most anything you can machine or fabricate down in my basement. Jim (Just a guy who likes to build stuff) ------- Atlas 7B Ram Position Mechanism [Metal_Shapers] Posted by: patx~xxpatclements.com kinggreenbean Date: Fri Sep 20, 2013 8:01 am ((PDT)) Hi folks. I have a new-to-me Atlas 7B, and I'm new to the group. I thought I got a pretty good deal on the machine -- a friend was selling for the widow kind of thing. It has the original vise, the table feed ratchet works pretty good, everything is fairly tight, original motor, etc. But not seeing one before, it didn't allow me to inspect it very well, and it turns out it's missing the entire ram position mechanism. These are the bevel gears in the ram, the horizontal threaded rod and the vertical shaft with the square head. So, a couple of questions, assuming I'm not missing anything: 1. Anyone have a parts machine they'd like to sell me some of the parts? I could machine-to-fit an after-market bevel gear if the spare parts have a broken gear. 2. If I just machined the horizontal shaft, maybe I could just have it stick out the back of the ram, instead of making the right-hand turn via the bevel gears? 3. Does anyone have the specs on the horizontal threaded rod (S7-37), BEFORE I have to go through the disassemble? I understand it's a real pain. 4. Does S7-37 thread into a hole in the S7-26 block, could it be stripped or missing other critical parts, and any suggestions on testing before I take it apart? My apologies if my Googling and reading should have found the answer, but no such luck so far. Thanks in advance. ------- Re: Atlas 7B Ram Position Mechanism Posted by: "Doc" n8as1x~xxaol.com docn8as Date: Sat Sep 21, 2013 6:21 am ((PDT)) if all else fails, my pre civil war E Gould shaper ram adjusts w/ a simple large nut on top or the ram, just bolting to the yoke & locking down the ram position...just loosen the bolt & move it where you want ...same w/ the stroke adj.....stick the hand in & loosen the bolt & move the dovetail block in or out more on the bull gear ...primitive but fool proof for adjustment ......osha wud not call it fool proof tho. fwiw,, the stud extending for the lock down bolt for the ram has two flat sides ....i wondered what for til i tried to squirt oil upside down to oil the yoke beneath ..........gravity does a better job of taking it in ... best wishes doc ------- Re: Atlas 7B Ram Position Mechanism Posted by: patx~xxpatclements.com kinggreenbean Date: Wed Sep 25, 2013 1:45 pm ((PDT)) Should I do the adjustments while it's running? LOL just kidding. I figure I could adjust it manually. I was hoping I could come up with something clever and simple. Thanks for the feedback. I haven't spent a huge amount of time on it, hoping there was something already invented that fixed the inconvenience simply. ------- Re: Atlas 7B Ram Position Mechanism Posted by: "Kenny" ksergeantx~xxmac.com Date: Fri Sep 27, 2013 1:28 pm ((PDT)) Pat, NO! Do NOT attempt to adjust the ram stroke or position while the shaper is running. I'm getting ready at the last minute to drive two states away to pick up a new toy. Just checked the users group and didn't seen anything to indicate someone else has answered your query. The Atlas Shaper user manual describes the steps to make the above adjustments. I don't recall the steps but do know the ram should be fully retracted to the rear of the machine for at least one adjustment. If you don't have a manual and are not successful in locating one online, let us know and I or another group mamber will direct you to one. I plan to be back home with my new to me old lathe. Ken ------- Re: Atlas 7B Ram Position Mechanism Posted by: "Doc" n8as1x~xxaol.com docn8as Date: Fri Sep 27, 2013 1:29 pm ((PDT)) wellllll,,,,,,,if you are reeallllllly good ?...... on a serious note, well guarded machines can give a false sense of security .....guarding against the full spectrum of ignorance & stupidity is impossible ....... there is some value in "exposed" machines.....one KNOWS that they are dangerous & consequently, that thot is always uppermost ....the other point is, recent generations life styles have resulted in persons entering the work force w/ an absence of the "common sense" that earlier generations entered the work force with ...i have often thot the more generations one is removed from the farm, the less comon sense remains...mechanics, electrics, economics, & politics..... that's probably unfair & certainly not universally true ....but it "peers so". i started part time farming around 1970, .....abt ten yrs later, i burned out w/ dentistry & started full time farming, & hands on home building... over the years employing labor, full & partime, both farm & off farm business, the "common sense" quotient quietly evaporated. look at the "directions" today on a product ......9/10 is for covering their butt & how not to injure your self & 1/10 on directions ......at one time there were NO directions ..if you were buying the part, you were expected to know what to do with it. i think the above is a result of lifestyle ....i remember being amazed when an employee asked to borrow my KNIFE ......one has been in my pocket since kindergarten .....not anymore !!!!...he will be expelled...a boy reaches 16 in most cases today w/out ever having to DO ANYTHING, so wha i learned by age 16, 66 yrs ago, by just living is absent ..they are looking at video games, when i was knocking 2x4's together....when asked to weed out a patch, you have to show him what IS a weed, then HOW to most efficiently remove it ...then find him gloves cause his hands are soft. at the end, american small farm labor was absent. (not surprising since if the skills are nonexistent, today, one can do quite as well, OR BETTER, on government largess)..i cut my last tobacco crop at age 74, w/ a 54 yr old woman...and not by CHOICE ....anything other than a "corn on corn" rotation farm can not operate today w/ out family and/or foreign labor. enuf off topic. good luck getting the shaper operational.....there IS merit in simplicity. doc ------- Re: Atlas mill Posted by: "Glen Linscheid" partsproductionx~xxcenturylink.net Date: Mon Sep 23, 2013 2:14 am ((PDT)) BTW, had Tesla invented the polyphase motor 50 years earlier we wouldn't have all these old flat belt lathes around, we'd have old gearhead lathes! I ran an old gearhead lathe, with bronze bearings, not a pretty thing and certainly not easy to restore. The flatbelt lathe from the 1890-1930's were being sold to the average shop that started maybe 20-50 years earlier and had a steam or water wheel driven line shaft, no need for that fancy motor when there was a shaft running all day long overhead. I can see why there was such resistance to the motor in base gearhead lathe. The lineshaft, especially if water driven, must have been hard to leave behind. Glen ------- Re: Lathe steadies [Metal_Shapers] Posted by: "Stephen Tolhurst" stephenx~xxusyd.edu.au Date: Mon Sep 23, 2013 2:13 am ((PDT)) > As to throwing a steady or follow rest away - the response might be one of poor choice of words. Yes, the rests may not be as popular as they once were and are often stored away and forgotten...separated from the lathe. Some are sold or given to others who may need it - or Think - they need it. < They certainly get lost. My father bought 4 used lathes over the years, in every case the traveling steady was missing (perhaps never existed in the case of the Drummond round bed) and the fixed steady in 3 out of the four. The traveling steady was never “missed” and neither dad nor myself ever felt a need to replace these missing items. I bought a new 6” centre height lathe 5 years ago, this came with a traveling steady but it hasn’t been used yet. Fixed steadies are a different matter. I ended up making a fixed steady for dads old Advance 3.5” lathe (Australian made clone of the ML4) and used it a number of times, I also made some special fixed steadies for this lathe for facing the ends of PVC pipe which the normal fixed steady tends to damage. Dad once had to send a job out (after messing up a first attempt) because his 6” Holbrook didn’t have a fixed steady. I’ve used the fixed steady on my 6” once and this was to try and get the maximum number of items out of an expensive material (2” hollow core bronze) rather than necessity. The lesson I learn’t from dad’s experience was that you can’t accurately bore a long hole in the end of a long job (in dad’s case the spindle for a huge wood lathe) shoved down the hollow spindle and held at just the chuck end, the axis of the hole ended up not parallel with the axis of the bar. Replacement was made by using a fixed steady so job was supported at both ends (not flapping in breeze down the hollow spindle). The steadies are not a frequently used item but there are jobs you can’t do without them. I found I used them more when doing jobs that were really too big for the lathe available, if most of your work can go down your hollow spindle you need them less often but shoving too much length down the spindle can lead to loss of accuracy (and jobs working loose in the chuck jaws). I found the same with turning between centres, I used that technique a lot more doing “over size” work on the 3.5” Advance than what I do now that I have a 6” lathe. A lot of what I do is making replacement pins for brake and suspension parts of locomotives and rolling stock, the pins could be turned on a 3.5” lathe but you could not try the fit of the pin in the item it had to fit while it was chucked in the smaller lathe, turning between centres allowed it to be taken in and out of the lathe for trial fits without hassle. It also saved material, the pins usually came in pairs so you cut a length to make two (plus an allowance for cutting) and turn them head to head between centres then hacksaw into two after making as deep a groove as you dare with a parting tool (the pins were usually of a size that the pin would fit far enough into the chuck to allow the head to be faced and chamfered without excessive overhand but the head would not go down past the face of the chuck). Otherwise you would have needed a chucking piece that was wasted. With the bigger lathe you just shove the bar down the spindle; turn; part off; advance and repeat. As for belt guards they have a big tendency to get lost on machines in home workshops where there are no safety inspectors lurking. The 3.5” Advance had belt guards when dad acquired the lathe but when he replaced the counter shaft they got lost and now it has none. Dad’s 6” Holbrook had its guards in place when bought and managed to keep them till I sold it. The rest of dad’s machines were flat belt driven and had no guards (and probably never did). The shaper and drill now reside in my home workshop and still don’t have any. The 9” Holvic-Herbert lathe is now in the workshop of the railway museum I volunteer at and is being converted to v-belt drive and will probably acquire some sort of guard. -------- How do you adjust Y axis stepover Atlas Shaper Please [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: anon36849x~xxyahoo.com Date: Tue Dec 10, 2013 5:42 am ((PST)) Just bought a very nice used Atlas Shaper. Great shape. No manual. Is there a way to adjust the automatic feed on the Y axis? It is taking a pretty large step-over now when it transits resulting in a very bad bad surface finish. Everything else about the machine seems flawlessly maintained. I know Z feed is always manually done between strokes but the depth of cut in the y axis can surely be adjusted somehow? Thank you. Sorry for such a total newbie question. Lewis lewispaytonx~xxyahoo.com ------- Re: How do you adjust Y axis stepover Atlas Shaper Please Posted by: jerdalx~xxsbcglobal.net jtiers Date: Tue Dec 10, 2013 5:58 am ((PST)) Yes, in steps. You adjust the throw of the crank that moves the side arm. That varies how many teeth it advances per stroke, which equals how much turn of the screw. Manual can be had from Clausing. Jerry ------- Re: How do you adjust Y axis stepover Atlas Shaper Please Posted by: wa5cabx~xxcs.com wa5cab Date: Tue Dec 10, 2013 9:14 am ((PST)) Lewis, According to the manuals (I don't own a 7B), the feed has five settings, finest being 0.005". I tried several times to upload two different versions of the Atlas manual to our Yahoo Files. But every time, the uploaded file is about 30% larger than the source file and Acrobat X won't open it (reports an error). If you like, I can send you the PDF of the better quality one direct. Robert Downs - Houston wa5cab dot com (Web Store) MVPA 9480 ------- Atlas 7B Metal Shaper [Metal_Shapers] Posted by: chris.hathaway1313x~xxgmail.com Date: Tue Dec 17, 2013 6:37 pm ((PST)) Hello All, I have an Atlas 7B Shaper (s/n 008953). I recently bought it after finding it on a craigslist ad. It is a great little machine and is in good condition. The exterior of the machine is in tremendous condition. At the time I bought it, the motor was not hooked up and the guy I bought it from never actually hooked it up and used it. I hooked up the motor and it runs really well and sounds perfect with exception of a small flaw. There is some play between the center block and screw inside the revolving gear that drives the lever that connects to the ram. I attached photos of the items I am talking about since when I tried to directly reference them in the manual they are only called out by p/n and replacement prices. No real description given. If you look at the photos, there is tape that helps you to see the small shift between the two parts. I assume there is play in the mechanisms given the edges of tape coming out of alignment, but don’t know what to do to prevent damage and stop that movement. There is a plate (see picture) that I tried removing in order to get to the source of my concerns, but there appears to be pins of some sort holding the plate. The manual does not show this plate having pins, only screws. Photos are in Whiznag's Atlas 7B Shaper Folder. Is there a way to post videos because I have a video showing the shift as well. So, in summary, the questions are: 1. What is the plate hiding? The 7ab manual dosent show the other side of the plate on the lever. 2. How can I remove the plate with out doing damage because of the pins? 3. How do I get rid of the play/slop/wiggling that I see by the screw in the photos? ------- Re: Atlas 7B Metal Shaper Posted by: "MartinMods" lancelotburtx~xxyahoo.com Date: Tue Dec 17, 2013 7:50 pm ((PST)) You can't and don't want to take the cover off the ram lever. Commonly, the block pin breaks off the block base allowing the sliding rectangular block to wobble. If that is the case, you have to take the ram lever out so you can remove the block assembly. I then clamped the pieces together, into the ram lever, so the pin was aligned, and welded it from the back side (after some boring) for a neat repair job that I'm sure won't break off again. ------- Re: Atlas 7B Metal Shaper Posted by: speedphoto300x~xxyahoo.com Date: Sun Dec 22, 2013 11:28 am ((PST)) What!? That cover comes off by taking 4 screws out, it has pins to locate it. It was intended to be easy to get off so you could change the slide block, which was considered to be a replaceable wear item. Take out the screws, pull off the cover and pull out the slide block. At that point you can try to wiggle the pin, if it's broken off the adjustment slide it will be obvious. More likely the adjustment screw nut is worn. Mine was, and I made a new one, slop and noise gone. Joe Veteran of numerous 7B battles ------- Re: Atlas 7B Metal Shaper [Metal_Shapers] Posted by: "Glen Linscheid" partsproductionx~xxcenturylink.net Date: Sun Jan 5, 2014 12:56 pm ((PST)) January 5, 2014 burkheimerx~xxgmail.com wrote: > John, I have one of the earliest Atlas 7s. The ratchet/pawl mechanism on it is identical to the 7B, except it's all steel and cast iron, no Zamak < I'd love to find one of those, the Atlas seems like a good design without the zinc alloy. Zamak is without a doubt the worst material ever used when it comes to repairs. Even tapping it is difficult, it needs a lead screw tapping machine or at least form taps because a cut tap pulls out with very little feedback to the operator. The first few years of running my shop I took in a few jobs repairing Zamak parts, but in a short time I refused to even look at them. Mechanically the Atlas seems to have many features of larger shapers. The one I saw at Dennie's display room seemed larger and more massive then the SB or Ammco's. ------- Re: Atlas 7B Metal Shaper Posted by: "Dennis Turk" dennis.turk2x~xxfrontier.com Date: Sun Jan 5, 2014 1:29 pm ((PST)) Yes the Atlas is bigger physically and heavier though it has the same travel as the SB and all of that design that came before it was SB. The box bed on the SB is quite a bit smaller than the Atlas though I think the SB is a better shaper design wise as well as construction wise. Just a little jewel. You guys just wait till I get the Barberstown shaper out so I can get good pictures of that one as its nearly as small as the one that Tubal Cain shows on one of his YouTube videos. Made much like that one also. The Barberstown shaper is about half way in-between the one Tubal Cain shows and the SB. I think the one Tubal shows has a 2 or 2 1/2 inch stroke and the Barberstown has a 4 1/2 inch stroke. Turk ------- Atlas 7B Brake Shoe [Metal_Shapers] Posted by: brickellx~xxeol.ca peter46toronto Date: Sat Nov 8, 2014 12:50 pm ((PST)) I bought my Atlas 7B shaper in remarkably good shape other than a missing brake shoe on the clutch lever. I fussed around with a hand-filed wooden replacement which eventually split. In frustration I made up a plaster mold from the remains and from what I could see in the parts list. I cast a replacement in hard urethane pourable rubber compound (Flexane 94). It has proven very satisfactory over the couple of months I have had it in use. Since I have the mold and some rubber compound on hand, if anyone needs one of these brake shoes, I would be happy to cast one for them at cost plus postage. That said both Flexane and postage are expensive here in Canada, so I estimate the material cost to be about $7 plus whatever mailing is (I will guess another $7 to most of North America). The finished shoe has about the same hardness as a bicycle brake shoe. I mounted it through the clutch lever holes directly using regular wood screws. If anyone is interested I can send a photo of the shoe and get an exact postage cost. Cheers, Peter ------- [Actual subject is of course Restoration of an Atlas 7A`] Restortation of an Atlas 7A` [Metal_Shapers] Posted by: dennis.turk2x~xxfrontier.com dturkcars Date: Mon Jan 5, 2015 5:15 am ((PST)) Hi guys. Normally I don't post up here though I do read what you guys are doing. I am just about finished with the restoration of a very early Atlas 7A. Serial number 0002121. This Shaper came from back East some years ago and has been in my storage warehouse for the last ten years. I have another Atlas shaper on display at my business along with a lot of other lathes. Some you may have seen on Tony's site in the UK. Why I am posting is that this is to be a working shaper in my get away home on the Oregon coast. We have set up a Dalton Lot 6, a Rockwell mill, a Delta 15-665 floor model drill press as well as some bench grinders and lots of tooling. My buddy Ratshooter has a home across the street from mine but has no garage so we are using mine to set up a model hobby shop for building model steam engines and such when we are down relaxing or in the fall salmon fishing. On this Atlas shaper I have installed a few upgrades that you guys might be interested in. First Ratshooter made a new dial ring for the top slide and also the cross slide. These are about 1 3/4 inch in diameter with big bright numbers and marks. Also on the top slide I installed two needle thrust bearings so we could set the gibs much tighter yet still have lovely feel and free turning of the hand wheel. We also installed a Logan cross slide hand wheel rather than the crummy Atlas hand crank made of pot metal. This I finished up today. I also am installing a ball thrust bearing on the left side of the cross slide lead screw and also a needle thrust bearing on the right side. Ratshooter does not have the cross slide dial ring finished but will be the same as the one on the top slide. These dial rings and needle and ball thrust bearings bring a new meaning to accuracy to this very nice old shaper. On another note I would like to say that Ratshooter did the very same thing to his Atlas shaper about 10 years ago. He does not use the shaper all that often but when he does it's just the machine for the job. He, like me, only uses insert tooling. The new modern high positive carbide insert tooling works wonderfully on a shaper. Don't let anyone tell you they don't because once you use them you won't be grinding tools again. We have recorded some extremely fine finishes using insert tooling on a shaper so you guys need to think about that. I will post photos as I do the work on this shaper. Dennis Turk ------- Re: Restortation of an Atlas 7A` Posted by: "Dennis Conway" dconway00x~xxcomcast.net conwayd98 Date: Mon Jan 5, 2015 10:00 am ((PST)) Denny: Good to see you posting on this forum. I'm working on a 7b serial no.2132 so it looks like our machines weren't that far apart in the production process. There will probably be a rush on buying Logan cross slide handles now. Would be interested in part numbers for the various bearing if you have them. I'm waiting on replacement bearing for the countershaft at the moment. Did you, or anyone else find that the shaft to bearing fit is very tight basically a press fit? Also if you can post a pic of the shaper with the ram lever yoke in a vertical position so I can see the position of the feed gear that would be helpful. I removed mine and as there no timing marks I need to get it back in sync with the main gear. BTW there is another Artisan lathe for sale on eBay in case you need a second one. Denny in Lansing ------- Re: Restortation of an Atlas 7A` Posted by: dozierhcx~xxaol.com dozierhc Date: Mon Jan 5, 2015 6:19 pm ((PST)) I am also starting to refurbish a recently acquired 7B shaper. It seems in decent shape but is missing the left motor side (Part number S7-102) belt guard and of course the VISE. The 7B is an unattractive incorrect lime green color, but I will strip and repaint anyway. No big deal. I did get an Atlas M-series mill vise in poor condition with the shaper which will work for the time being after I rebuild it (some maroon in the past milled into the LH ACME leadscrew!) so I am making a new replacement for it, general cleanup, and fix a crack in the rear leadscrew shaft support. So if you get a chance, please post some pictures and part numbers so that those of us who are in process of rebuilding our shapers can maybe also upgrade them as well. Hank Dozier ------- Re: Restortation of an Atlas 7A` Posted by: "dennis Turk" dennis.turk2x~xxfrontier.com dturkcars Date: Mon Jan 5, 2015 6:22 pm ((PST)) Hi Dennis. I owe you Dennis so send me your address to my email address and I will send you the bearings you need. Just ordered some more of the 1/2 inch ones used in place of the spacer between the drive gear and the cross slide casting. You will have to thin down the original spacer but any good man with a SB heavy ten can do the job. Will send the 3/8 one also. You will need three of them and the one 1/2 inch one. Too bad you did not ask me as I have an extra set of countershaft bearings with castings and shaft as well as the shaft collar and felt gasket. If you need them will send them also. My countershaft had two broken pulleys(seems some idiot by the name of Dennis dropped it) so I had to get another one just for the two pulleys. Also have an extra motor mount but no casting that bolts to the back of the shaper. It’s the same one used on the horizontal countershaft for the 10F lathe. I did offer a very nice Atlas shaper vice on this site but no takers so gave it to my buddy Ratshooter for a Christmas present. He don’t have an original for his 7A. Might ask him if he is interested in making the dial rings but they are a lot of work. Oh and by the way where we get the needle thrust bearings they are really cheap so don’t worry about the expense I charge it to the company anyhow ”-) Yes I seen that Artisan lathe on eBay but I see Tony has a lot more info on them on his site now. Still one of the strangest lathes ever built. The guy had to be an Englishman that designed it. Dennis I did not have to take the internals apart on my shaper so I am at a loss as to how to help you. Will forward your email on to Ratshooter as he had his fully dismantled. Dennis from McMinnville ------- Re: Restortation of an Atlas 7A` Posted by: "Dennis Conway" dconway00x~xxcomcast.net conwayd98 Date: Mon Jan 5, 2015 9:04 pm ((PST)) Denny: Good to hear from you. Read your other post and thank you for the offer of the bearings. While just part numbers will do if you would like to send a set I'd appreciate it. Dennis Conway 4315 Mar Moor dr. Lansing, MI 48917 If you have a spare high positive carbide insert I'd like to see what one looks like. Your pics are great. Actually the one of the atlas shaper was a big help as the clapper pin looks just like mine so maybe mine is original after all. I'll send some pics of my go cart by separate email Denny ------- Re: Restortation of an Atlas 7A` Posted by: "dennis Turk" dennis.turk2x~xxfrontier.com dturkcars Date: Tue Jan 6, 2015 6:26 am ((PST)) Hi Dennis. Will have the 1/2 inch needle thrust bearings Wednesday so Thursdays will ship the four sets off to you. If you need to clean up the taper in your clapper box I have a tapered reamer you can borrow. Ratshooter said he says he don’t think it makes any difference where the drive gear and bull gear engage. Not sure what all you two are talking about but that is what he said. Kind of nice I am able to return some of the favors you have bestowed on me. Dennis ------- Re: 7A shaper vice [Metal_Shapers] Posted by: dozierhcx~xxaol.com dozierhc Date: Fri Feb 6, 2015 7:58 am ((PST)) Palmgren make a pretty good vise that fits the Atlas Shaper. The ENCO part number is 328-5825 (Palmgren model 425B, 360 degree graduated swivel base). It's also available from ZORO Tools as well, maybe for less unless you have an ENCO discount. The only drawbacks I can see are its about 1/2" taller and only has two slots in the swivel base for bolts. But it looks a lot better than some other solutions. Hank ------- [Metal_Shapers] Need advice on disassembling Feed Case on Atlas 7B Shaper Posted by: dozierhcx~xxaol.com dozierhc Date: Fri Feb 27, 2015 9:26 pm ((PST)) OK. Here is one for the forum for those whom have done this before. I am in process of disassembling my 7B for cleaning and inspection, and have hit a snag. I have pulled off the Feed Case guard (S7-24D) and now need to remove the S7-25D housing. I got the lower disc and gear out OK but for the life of me cannot seem to get the drive gear (S7-86) to budge! So what is the trick here? Is it supposed to be a close slip fit with a key, or pressed on, or what? I need this off to pull the housing and get at the bearing to check condition, lubrication, etc. and clean or replace if damaged. Help would be great here, as the parts list is pretty sketchy as to what is holding this gear in place. Thanks to all in advance. Hank Dozier ------- Re: Need advice on disassembling Feed Case on Atlas 7B Shaper Posted by: "Joe R" jromasx~xxcolumbus.rr.com joe_romas Date: Sat Feb 28, 2015 11:28 am ((PST)) Hank: The gear is keyed to the shaft and held on by collar S7-114. I machined new castings for both the gear case cover and gear case and don’t remember having any problem removing the gear. Sorry I can’t be of more help. Joe ------- Re: Need advice on disassembling Feed Case on Atlas 7B Shaper Posted by: dozierhcx~xxaol.com dozierhc Date: Sat Feb 28, 2015 2:42 pm ((PST)) Joe.... Thanks for confirming it's keyed. I suspected that. My issue is the collar. I removed the set screw but it still won't pull off. In the parts list it shows a lead ball as well beneath the set screw. I assume that is to prevent thread galling by the set screw. Is it possible that this is holding the collar on, and if so, maybe can it be unscrewed if the gear/shaft can be held stationary? Hank ------- Re: Need advice on disassembling Feed Case on Atlas 7B Shaper Posted by: "William R Meyers" wmrmeyersx~xxsbcglobal.net oldstudentmsgt Date: Sat Feb 28, 2015 3:02 pm ((PST)) If the lead ball is missing, the threads could be all boogered up (that's a technical term I learned on farm machinery ;), or the lead may have extruded into the gap between the shaft and collar, locking the collar more firmly than intended. If you've been able to get the shaft out of the case you could press it off, or use a gear puller to pull it off. Not too hard to make such things in the size you need if you don't have one already. If you can get a light in there to look down into the setscrew hole, you may be able to see if the lead is still there, or the threads are boogered up. If the lead is there, you may be able to scrape it out with a small screw driver or dental pick. A shot of WD-40 or penetrating oil might help, too. Heat may help, as well, but you want to be careful not to warm zamac parts too much or they melt. I hope this helps. I'm not a shaper expert, but have taken a few machines apart over the past 50 years or so. Bill in OKC William R. Meyers, MSgt, USAF(Ret.) ------- Re: Need advice on disassembling Feed Case on Atlas 7B Shaper Posted by: dozierhcx~xxaol.com dozierhc Date: Sun Mar 1, 2015 1:04 pm ((PST)) Bill... I think the lead is still in the bottom of the set screw hole. I will try the dental pick method and then progress to more aggressive methods you mentioned. I am aware of the ZAMAK heat issue, so will try to avoid that if at all possible. I just needed assurance that the collar wasn't a press fit. Most likely the old oil and grease plus 70 years of dirt and neglect in this area (I think mine dates from 1944 if it matches the motor on it) are gluing the collar to the shaft and the lead it the over-the-top retention device! Will let you know how it turns out. Hank ------- Re: Need advice on disassembling Feed Case on Atlas 7B Shaper Posted by: wmrmeyersx~xxsbcglobal.net oldstudentmsgt Date: Sun Mar 1, 2015 1:09 pm ((PST)) Hope you're right, as some WD-40 or other penetrating oil (PB Blaster, etc.) will clear that out pretty quickly. You may not even need to pick out the lead, in that case. Though I probably would anyway, just to be sure. Then replace it when you reassemble. Good luck! Bill in OKC ------- Re: Need advice on disassembling Feed Case on Atlas 7B Shaper Posted by: dozierhcx~xxaol.com dozierhc Date: Sun Mar 1, 2015 4:14 pm ((PST)) Bill... The lead ball material was still in the bottom of the collar. For all those out there who want to boldly go where I am going in refurbishing their shaper, the procedure I used was to place a belt around the input shaft pulley and tie it down so that the bull gear mechanism would not move. I then applied a little ATF + Acetone to the collar (mixture is REAL slippery and the acetone wicks the ATF into the crevices). Waited about 10 minutes and then I unscrewed the collar (it is threaded - RH thread) from the shaft. The Zamack feed drive gear then just popped off with a light levering behind it to crack the varnish on the shaft. I am now well into the shaper and have the Ram head off. A point of interest: (after you loosen the set screws in the bottom pivot lever and collars then drift out the shaft, and remove the 4 screws and lever off the cover in the yoke and pull the slider block to remove the whole assembly) you remove the Ram stroke position mechanism by drifting out the groove pin to the horizontal bevel gear through that hole in the top of the Ram behind the vertical bevel adjuster gear and shaft - that is what it is there for! I am now left with the bull gear shaft in the frame and the foot with the vertical work box mechanism to do after I clean, inspect and paint the freshly removed parts. I hope this helps others out there. Hank ------- Stroke Block Material for Atlas 7B [Metal_Shapers] Posted by: dozierhcx~xxaol.com dozierhc Date: Tue Mar 3, 2015 9:23 pm ((PST)) Upon diving into the RAM Scotch drive in my shaper, I have found that the stroke block (S7-19) in the ram lever is worn on one side. The ram lever itself (S7-16A) does not seem to have any wear at all. This leads me to believe that the stroke block is deliberately made of a softer steel than the lever material. Or is not hardened while the lever may be? Anyway, in order to refurbish my shaper correctly, I am looking at making a new S7-19 stroke block. Does anyone on this site know the material and also the hardness of the stroke block? This may be one that Dennis Turk has to answer (Dennis, if you read this, HELP!), but maybe others have made the part or know the material and hardness. I don't want to make it out of something either too soft or too hard. Thanks in advance for any assistance here. Hank ------- Re: Stroke Block Material for Atlas 7B Posted by: "Mark Hofer" markahoferx~xxmac.com mark.hoferx~xxymail.com Date: Wed Mar 4, 2015 11:22 am ((PST)) The block on my SB7 is made of brass and is also worn. I have on my project table a new block of brass squared and ready to machine a replacement. M ------- Re: Stroke Block Material for Atlas 7B Posted by: "Louis Schoolkate" l_schoolkatex~xxyahoo.com Date: Thu Mar 5, 2015 9:28 pm ((PST)) Although I cannot comment on South Bend, I checked my two shapers. One has a steel block running in the iron yoke. One is brass in iron. I replaced the steel block due to wear and found the old block wasn't hardened. My guess is that hardness is not as critical as good fit. I surface ground the replacement block to slide on two new scraped surfaces in the yoke. That and good lubrication means it will probably last longer than I will. ------- Re: Stroke Block Material for Atlas 7B Posted by: "Doc" n8as1x~xxaol.com docn8as Date: Thu Mar 5, 2015 9:29 pm ((PST)) FWIW consider squaring the block, then splitting it, then screw together w/ extra blocking screws separating the engagement so that the block fits again. best wishes doc ------- Re: Stroke Block Material for Atlas 7B Posted by: dozierhcx~xxaol.com dozierhc Date: Thu Mar 5, 2015 9:32 pm ((PST)) Mark... That is interesting, as mine is definitely a steel piece. Brass has more natural lubricity, but is a softer material than steel. I suspect mine is just plain 1018 or something similar, but it would be nice now to know what it should be, given that we have a different materials for the same part! Anyone here know what is the factory material for the stroke blocks? Hank ------- Re: Stroke Block Material for Atlas 7B Posted by: anthrhodesx~xxaol.com anthrhodes Date: Fri Mar 6, 2015 11:08 pm ((PST)) Following up on my earlier message, I requested the drawing as a PDF from Jolene Olds. The drawing specifies "Oilite", generically, sintered bronze. Looks like a simple part but there is two details which could be easily missed. At one end there is a pocket machined out which at first I thought was to clear a gear or some other component but I couldn't see anything which would require such a clearance. I think the block is installed with the pocket at the top to serve as a reservoir for oil being flung around during operation. From that pocket there is the other detail mentioned above, a 1/8" drilling to the cross bore, presumably to feed oil to the cross bore in addition to any oil provided by the Oilite. Might be good practice to add opening the service door on the side of the column and giving a shot of oil in that pocket whenever you are going to run the shaper. Anthony Berkeley, Calif. [and in a later message] I've forgotten who originally posted the question regarding the material from which the S7-19 Block was made. A friend once stated that it was made from sintered iron or sintered steel, I forget which. I can't verify the correctness of the statement but thought I'd post the information here for consideration and research. ------- Re: How to remove bull gear and bearings on Atlas 7B [Metal_Shapers] Posted by: dozierhcx~xxaol.com dozierhc Date: Sun Mar 8, 2015 10:33 am ((PDT)) Update on this subject. I got the bearing collar and with it the bearing and the bearing housing off. As documentation for others, this is how I did it. Others may have better methods. You first remove the two plates (S7-53) on the bull gear that hold the stroke adjusting leadscrew(S7-56A) and the stroke adjusting slider block/pin (S7-14A) on. These are staked flat head Phillips 3/8-16 screws, so used an impact screwdriver to loosen and then removed normally. The leadscrew on mine FELL OUT, as the support collar in the stroke mechanism (S7-13A) was fractured off! So good thing I am completely going through this shaper. This exposes the stroke setting shaft (S7-58) helical gear (S7-60A) and the retaining nut and lockwasher. As mine didn't want to just slide off after removal of the nut and washer, I had to use an 1/8" centerpunch in the centering hole and tap the shaft out of the gear. It took time and more force than I would like, but it came off. At this point you can remove the #3 woodruff key and washer and remove the shaft. Now You have to remove the 6 5/16-18 Allen capscrews (6 of them) and you take a pair of long threaded 3/6-16 bolts and place them in the two inside holes that held the stroke plates (S7-53) onto the bull gear. You thread these in and it presses the bull gear (S7-12) off of the hub (S7-13A). You can now remove all items from the machine frame. Use pin spanners to remove the adjuster collars (S7-136L and S7-136R) for the input shaft (S7-83A). Make sure you back out the headless 1/4-20 set screws first at the rear of each bearing boss. I have not done this yet, but it looks like you can remove bearings, shaft, the input gear (S7-18) and both the bearing support collars (S7-137 and S7-138) without having to drift out the groove pins holding them to the shaft. At this point the machine frame should be a bare item ready to clean and paint, with exception of the grease cup and the inner tapered roller bearing cone. My cones looks good, and so do the bearings, so I will clean and relube/reuse them. I think one of the input shaft bearings (S7-174A - pulley side) may be suspect. Will know after I get it out and inspect it. Hank ------- Atlas shaper ratchet case reproduction? [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: "Gregg Eshelman" g_alan_ex~xxYAHOO.COM g_alan_e Date: Fri Jun 5, 2015 7:20 pm ((PDT)) Anyone making a CNC milled aluminum copy of part S7-23D? The ratchet case, the rather thinly made die cast component that tends to crack. ------- Re: Atlas shaper ratchet case reproduction? Posted by: "robert Guthrey" robertguthreyx~xxyahoo.com robertguthrey Date: Sun Jun 14, 2015 10:02 am ((PDT)) Hi Gregg. I just purchased a cnc mill to make a few parts for resell. Do you know how to get a print? Bobby ------- Re: Atlas shaper ratchet case reproduction? Posted by: "Gregg Eshelman" g_alan_ex~xxYAHOO.COM g_alan_e Date: Sun Jun 14, 2015 11:22 pm ((PDT)) Ge an original ratchet case and take a lot of measurements. If your mill didn't include CAD/CAM software there's HEEKS CAD for $10. It works fairly well. The free version just puts some lines at the start of its G-Code output that you need to delete with a text editor. ------- Atlas 7B help needed [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: jamesoconnell95x~xxyahoo.com jamesoconnell95 Date: Sat Jan 9, 2016 1:16 pm ((PST)) Hi All. Newby here. Just picked up the Craftsman Version of the Atlas 7B Shaper. Complete in great shape but it's been sitting quite a while. What oil is best to lube this up with? Please advise Thanks ------- Re: Atlas 7B help needed Posted by: "Carvel Webb" carvelwx~xxabsamail.co.za cwlathes Date: Sat Jan 9, 2016 1:33 pm ((PST)) Hi “Newby” (Can you help us with a name J ?) The Atlas technical bulletin refers to a “good quality No 10 motor oil throughout, except where otherwise noted“ and those would be the gears and grease cups. Hope it goes well, Regards, Carvel ------- Re: Atlas 7B help needed Posted by: "William R Meyers" wmrmeyersx~xxsbcglobal.net oldstudentmsgt Date: Sat Jan 9, 2016 1:43 pm ((PST)) Ten weight motor oil is what was specified, but I believe you'll find quite a bit of discussion on that. Any lubrication is better than none, and the specified oils in the documentation are what the equipment was designed for. You can do better now, as the technology has advanced. William R. Meyers, MSgt, USAF(Ret.) ------- Re: Atlas 7B help needed Posted by: wa5cabx~xxcs.com wa5cab Date: Sat Jan 9, 2016 2:32 pm ((PST)) James: In the 1930's, 40's and 50's, Atlas recommended SAE 10 non-detergent motor oil for the lathes, mills and shapers. Not long after production of the mills and shapers ceased, they changed the recommendation to SAE 20. I would go with that. However, except in a few parts of the country, finding non-detergent straight SAE 20 has become hard to impossible. There are several equivalents still sold but their viscosity is usually given in ISO units. ISO 68 is approximately the same as SAE 20. I use Mobil DTE Circulating Oil Heavy Medium ISO 68. I bought a gallon of it about three years ago. Robert Downs - Houston wa5cab dot com (Web Store) MVPA 9480 ------- Re: Atlas 7B help needed Posted by: jamesoconnell95x~xxyahoo.com jamesoconnell95 Date: Sat Jan 9, 2016 5:51 pm ((PST)) HI Robert, Thanks for the info. I really appreciate it. I'll look for the Mobile DTE ISO 68. So I guess 3 in 1 sae 20 is not acceptable? because it is a "detergent oil" ? James ------- Re: Atlas 7B help needed Posted by: wa5cabx~xxcs.com wa5cab Date: Sat Jan 9, 2016 11:13 pm ((PST)) No. I don't think that 3 in 1 SAE 20 is High Detergent. But considering the amount needed if you use the lathe very much, it would be quite expensive to use. Robert & Susan Downs - Houston ------- Re: Atlas 7B help needed Posted by: "Carvel Webb" carvelwx~xxabsamail.co.za cwlathes Date: Sun Jan 10, 2016 12:13 am ((PST)) All, Another option is 'sewing machine oil" which is generally SAE 10 or close to 3-in-1 or similar. If you have a sewing supplies wholesaler outlet near you they often supply it in 1 litre containers at reasonable prices . If the ambient temperature is high, and/or during summer, then SAE 30 seems to work OK as well, Regards, Carvel ------- Re: Atlas 7B help needed Posted by: "James Stack" jamessimba1942x~xxroadrunner.com Date: Sun Jan 10, 2016 9:20 am ((PST)) I’ve been perplexed also by the abrupt past change from the SAE system to the ISO and the confusion its caused with the various recommendations for machine tool lubrication. It's hard to remember offhand the equivalents values, but the one constant here is viscosity. A liquid's viscosity is directly related to its temperature, and the world now uses two common scales for expressing that; the’ Celsius and Fahrenheit scales, ignoring the irrelevant Kelvin. Looking back, it appears the machine tool folks caved in early-on to the pressure to go metric, adopting ISO(metric) for expressing viscosity but with the Fahrenheit scale staying put in this country for most other uses. The different ISO viscosity ratings you see kicked about in the internet forums appear to be nothing more then temperature equivalents for oil viscosities (metric system) the same as found in the english (SAE?) designation. It's not difficult to convert temperature using the equations. I do these in my head for one and two digit numbers, but if you’ve forgotten them, they are F=9/5C+32 and C=5/9(F-32). ISO 68 is not just approximately the same as SAE 20; it is exactly the same viscosity, as these numbers interchange as temperature conversions. I haven’t checked other ISO suggested equivalents as I don’t know what's recommended by different manufacturers offhand, but you can look up other designated oils where the machine’s maker flip-flopped in the past. To me, this is simpler for picking the correct oil viscosity, when all you have is one system's designation. Remember, celsius numbers will come out lower than the fahrenheit ones for the temperatures we work with, or if not, you’ve made an arithmetic error. The only time they’re equal is at -40 degrees and I don’t think anyone is interested in a viscosity ratings for temperatures that low. At least, I’m not. Burr... ------- ------------------------------------------------------------------ This is just one of some 80 files about machining and metalworking and useful workshop subjects that can be read at: http://www.janellestudio.com/metal/index.html ------------------------------------------------------------------