This is just one of some 80 files about machining and metalworking and useful workshop subjects that can be read at: http://www.janellestudio.com/metal/index.html ------------------------------------------------------------------ This file has tips and information on motors for Atlas lathes (or which could be useful for other brands) and motor setups. One alternative popularly discussed in forums is using one of the DC (direct current) exercise treadmill motors. A controller for variable speed is needed to work with this type motor. A search of the Atlas and Taig and Sherline message groups will tell you, dozens of times over, nearly everything about treadmill motors including current sources. Such a motor is likely only practicable for the smaller lathes. The Atlas 618 is probably at the top size end of whether such a motor might serve you satisfactorily. The cheapest source is at a yard sale for the equipment. Stripping a treadmill will yield all sorts of additional good junk. The alternative is a new motor and controller; besides the often mentioned suppliers, you can get them as new parts locally through any store selling treadmills. Whenever I pass through the hardware store section where new heavy duty motors (similar to our machinery's originals) smile from the shelves, I relearn how to gasp with serious sticker shock. I often visit the local Habitat for Humanity outlet in our town and typically see used and very acceptable heavy duty motors with price tags of $5 or $10 Canadian. Some included heavy duty mounts that warrant the full asking price by themselves. So check the charity or thrift stores in your area. Yes, you will sometimes get a similar or better deal at a yard sale, but you may have to spend a lot of time and ga$oline. ADDITIONAL MOTOR-RELATED SAFETY NOTES: People have been able to successfully [sometimes] apply moderately low power single or double speed motors salvaged from appliances. Increasing motor speed beyond manufacturer supplied original units is NOT A GOOD IDEA for many practical and safety reasons. If Atlas or Clausing thought higher speed motors offered any safe advantage, they would have been original equipment. For power operations like threading on a lathe, most of the time we wish that the lowest speed available was a lot lower still. Appliance or other motors with open case structures are totally unacceptable from a safety standpoint for powering metalworking machines. Any motor will benefit from a chip shield to reduce the likelihood of dirt and swarf (metal chips) causing increased wear or an electrical hazard. All moving parts of the motor (and drive belts, pullies, and gears) must be covered with effective safety shields and belt guards as appropriate. If you think you can get away without such shields, you are fooling yourself. Even the most experienced machinist in the world is subject to distractions or moments of inattention that could be disastrous if safety devices were not both present and used! Do yourself a very big favour and get a qualified electrician to wire your motors, switches, and power supplies. It is also a good idea to have one visit your workshop and verify that your electrical system is adequate for your needs and is correctly, safely installed. Safety equipment and precautions are your best work partners. If you got to this file directly from my HOME PAGE, return there by using your browser's back button. BUT if you came to this file as the result of a web search engine, see many additional files on my home page Machining and Metalworking at Home http://www.janellestudio.com/metal/index.html SAFETY WARNING BEWARE: DO NOT ASSUME that any subject matter or procedure or process is safe or correct or appropriate just because it was mentioned in a news/user group or was included in these files or on this site or on any other web site or was published in a magazine or book or video. Working with metals and machinery and chemicals and electrical equipment is inherently dangerous. Wear safety devices and clothing as appropriate. Remove watches, rings, and jewellery -- and secure or remove loose clothing -- before operating any machine. Read, understand and follow the latest operating procedures and safety instructions provided by the manufacturer of your machine or tool or product. If you do not have those most recent official instructions, acquire a copy through the manufacturer before operating or using their product. Where the company no longer exists, use the appropriate news or user group to locate an official copy. Be careful -- original instructions may not meet current safety standards. Updated safety information and operating instructions may also be available through a local club, a local professional in the trade, a local business, or an appropriate government agency. In every case, use your common sense before beginning or taking the next step; and do not proceed if you have any questions or doubts about any procedure, or the safety of any procedure. Follow all laws and codes, and employ certified or licenced professionals as required by those laws or codes. Hazardous tasks beyond your competence or expertise should also be contracted to professionals. Let's be really careful out there. (c) Copyright 2003 - 2016 Machining and Metalworking at Home The form of the collected work in this text file (including editing, additions, and notes) is copyrighted and this file is not to be reproduced by any means, including electronic, without written permission except for strictly personal use. ========================================================================== Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2001 07:51:04 -0400 From: mark usik Subject: Re: Tread mill motor for lathe? [atlas_craftsman] > Original Message ----- > From: > To: > Sent: Monday, August 27, 2001 4:50 PM > Subject: [atlas_craftsman] Tread mill motor for lathe? > > I often read how many in this group use the tread mill motor > > available from the Surplus Center to power their lathe. I just > > called to order one and they are cleaned out and don't know when they > > might have them in stock again. Does anyone here have an extra tread > > mill motor they would like to sell or does anyone know of another > > source for these motors? Please e-mail me off group at > > extratecx~xxaol.com. Thank you, Regis Mario L Vitale wrote: >Regis, I hope you don't take this the wrong way, but you could wander around the neighborhood on trash day and look for discarded tread mills! (I got one this way, and was told by a guy who ran a motor repair shop that the moter is NOT what usually goes wrong with them...it's usually the controller. I have two Surplus center motors and one that I regularly abuse [powering a 24" swing wood turning lathe that I built] on occasion just quits working. I simply remove the circuit board from the heat sink extrusion and look for the bad solder joints... using a ten power glass helps. I resolder the bad [overheated, I suspect] joints and anfd it runs fine!?!? I realize that the inventory is pretty unpredictable so I'll try to find the name of an outfit in Canada that was selling them a few years ago. If I can find their address I'll let everyone know. Mario < Princess Auto in Canada sometimes has a few different treadmill motors in their surplus section, but I have not yet seen any with the speed controller. They have locations across Canada. Mail order from Winnipeg Manitoba (204) 669-4252 website: www.princessauto.com Mark www.princessauto.com ------- Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2001 10:48:57 -0500 From: "M K (Skip)Campbell Jr." Subject: Re: Tread mill motor for lathe? The surplus center is sold out of the controllers. They still have the motors. They also sell new KB motor controllers for 136.00. Not bad. You must order a plug-in resistor to match the motor horse power and a fuse at 2.50 each. These are available at local power train dealers like Motion Industries for less than 1.00 ea. The controllers however are much higher. Surplus Center also has a Minarik controller board for 56.95 that supplies up to 10 amps with a heat sink. That will run up to a 1 HP 90 DC motor. You have to make an enclosure and the pot and wiring. For my money, the KB unit complete and ready to hook up is worth the difference. Surplus Center, is as it's name implies, a seller of Surplus items, specifically industrial power transmission items. 1-800-488-3407. Skip Campbell ------- Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 07:55:51 -0600 (CST) From: dswrx~xxwebtv.net Subject: Re: Reversible Motor [WHY SOMETIMES HELPFUL] If the lathe is basically designed to cut inch-system threads, the "threading dial" will only work on inch threading. So, if the lathe is set up to cut a metric thread, once you engage the half-nut, you cannot disengage it at the end of the cut. If you do, you loose the relation between the thread groove and the threading tool. You can't shift the lead screw in reverse either, for the same reason. To overcome these restrictions, you have to stop the spindle at the end of the cut. You can rotate the spindle backwards by hand to the beginning of the cut, but unless it is a very short thread... you can see the problem. If the lathe has a reverse switch, it will make backing out the tool much easier. Leo (pearland, tx) ------- Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 09:08:01 -0500 From: "David Booth" Subject: Re: Reverseable Motor My Sears 109 is set up like that. The reverse is almost a necessity when cutting metric threads, as it's nearly impossible to get the cutter lined up for the second and subsequent passes any other way. (I tried using a carriage stop clamped to the ways, but found that each time the carriage came to rest against it, it moved just enough to mess up the workpiece. Then, again, I was trying to cut pretty small threads, so this might work for the larger sizes, like 0.5 mm per thread or greater.) My biggest concern about having the ability to reverse is I have to be careful not to turn the motor in reverse with a cutting tool engaged in the workpiece. Fortunately, that is only possible if the motor is stopped; otherwise, reversing the switch has no effect. ------- Date: Sat, 16 Nov 2002 00:36:58 -0600 From: Jon Elson Subject: Re: Reverseable Motor When cutting metric threads (or any very coarse, half thread/inch, etc. threads) it is usually necessary to run the lathe backwards between passes, as disengaging the halfnuts will lose the synchronization between leadscrew and the thread you are cutting. You can only disengage the halfnuts on threads that repeat every inch (assuming that the threading dial repeats every inch). Also, running the lathe in reverse is good when using a toolpost grinder on external work. To avoid unscrewing the chuck, you can start the motor with the belt loose, and then tighten the belt gradually. Jon ------- Date: Sat, 16 Nov 2002 19:35:29 EST From: PIHPGSx~xxaol.com Subject: Re: Reverseable Motor/and reverse threading Hi. On the locking device. You get a threaded rod the full length of your head stock. The size ie/1/2-3/4 or whatever, is determined by the thru-hole in the head stock. Then, you measure the diameter of your chuck on the inside which would be on the tail stock side, but behind the jaw rail surface. Most chucks have at least 1/8 inch clearance or larger. Get or machine a heavy washer or round piece of stock that will just fit into this recess. Remove it from your chuck, center it and weld it to the end of your bolt stock. Then place this through the chuck, place a large washer on left side of the bolt and tighten it down. you then can place your lathe in reverse without unwinding the chuck. The only downside to this is that while using the locking divice, you cannot place anything through the head stock. I have been using this for years in conjuction with tool post grinders, polishing etc. No problem. Now, on to the threading from left to right w/cutting tool upside down. Set the work as you would any threading job. Place your 60 degree threading tool upside down in the tool holder. Place it dead center to the work at the cutting edge. Then, using your thread gauge, place it against the work and align the cutting tool so that the 60 degree angle fits perfectly. The cross carriage will remain at the required 29 degrees for your proper thread advance feeding. This is perfect for threading from a shoulder and up to your live/dead center and will prevent over runs and cutting where you do not want to cut. To do the above, the lathe must operate in reverse, ie chuck turns clockwise looking at it. Try it Chuck ------- Date: Sat, 28 Dec 2002 16:54:11 -0600 From: Rodent Subject: Motor Reversing Switch Anyone know sources for a decent manual motor control switch (forward/off /reverse) for a 1/3-1/2 horsepower single-phase 110 VAC motor? The one we had horded away had been badly abused and was not usable and now I need to find a replacement. I finally found one unit on Allen-Bradley's web site, but it looks rather expensive and I don't know who would carry one locally. Do electrical supply houses carry any of this stuff any more? ------- Date: Sat, 28 Dec 2002 21:24:19 -0600 From: Rodent Subject: Re: Motor Reversing Switch Original Message ----- > cheapest solution is an on off switch in a handybox (light switch) for on off , & a male lamp plug & wall receptacle for reverse .......just reverse the plug to change direction < Umm... I don't think reversing the power plug is gonna work on this motor. You have to switch terminals on one winding in the motor -- the power connection makes no difference. ------- Date: Sat, 28 Dec 2002 21:43:45 -0600 From: Rodent Subject: Re: Motor Reversing Switch Assuming David was correct in his understanding for the use of the AC plug, there are several problems with the low-budget approach: Using a connector for something it was not intended for is dangerous. I want the unit to be easy / safe others to use. I want to use a familiar method to reverse the motor. I want the installation to look professional. To this end, I did finally stumble across a reasonably priced switch in the Grainger catalog -- http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/productdetail.jsp?xi=xi&ItemId=1611674544 Unfortunately there does not appear to be an online schematic for the switch itself, so some reverse engineering (no pun intended) may be in order. ------- Date: Sat, 28 Dec 2002 23:08:35 -0500 From: David Beierl Subject: Re: Re: Motor Reversing Switch At 12/28/2002, Derf wrote: >. I think it can be done with a DPDT switch, or a DPDT and a SPST. SPST to control power to the device, DPDT wired X-fashion to swap the direction of the starting windings. Flipping the direction switch has no effect until you stop and re-start the motor with the other switch. Drum switch accomplishes the same thing with one handle, still have to wait in the middle position until the motor stops or nothing will change. david David Beierl -- Providence RI USA Atlas 618 6"/3/index.html" lathe ca. 1941 ------- Date: Sun, 29 Dec 2002 04:11:32 -0000 From: "esides " Subject: Re: Motor Reversing Switch "Derf wrote: > Reversing the plug orientation will not reverse the direction of an > AC motor. I think it can be done with a DPDT switch, or a DPDT and a > SPST. Or, is it DPDT off in the middle? I can't recall. It takes a double pole double throw switch for reversing and single pole single throw switch for start and stop. Ed ------- Date: Sun, 29 Dec 2002 04:26:22 -0000 From: "Derf " Subject: Re: Motor Reversing Switch Why dink? A new on-off-on DPDT switch may cost $5. A new drum switch would cost a little more. A couple of relays, two N/O pushbuttons,and a N/C pushbutton can make a nice forward-reverse-stop setup where you have to push stop before you can change direction. Add another N/C or two for emergency stops. Add a N/C micro switch on a clamp on the bed and you could have a carriage stop. You would still come in way under the price of a drum switch. Cheers, Derf ------- Date: Sun, 29 Dec 2002 08:22:32 -0600 From: "Richard Meredith" Subject: Re: Motor Reversing Switch If you have a W.W.Grainger branch locally, they offer a series of old fashion drum type reversing switches under their Dayton brand name. Grainger's smallest unit ( their stock number 2X440) is single phase rated 1.5 HP x~xx 115VAC, or 2HP x~xx 230 VAC. The current list price of this item is $32.75. I have used this switch as well as many other items of the Dayton brand, and have found them to all be of good quality. This is about as cheap as it gets for a new unit, though there may be something cheaper on the surplus or used market. Grainger has a web presence: (www.grainger.com) Good Luck, Rich ------- Date: Sun, 29 Dec 2002 08:38:16 -0600 From: "Richard Meredith" Subject: Re: Rodent..Re: Motor Reversing Switch Your right about Grainger sales over the net, but you can look up local sales outlets on their web site. The outlet stores will sell to anyone for cash. I use two of there drum switches every day, and have for years with no problem. I also have a Square D example, its a very good switch, but it does not work any better than the Dayton, and cost three times as much. Just a Personal Observation, Rich ------- Date: Sun, 29 Dec 2002 13:06:42 -0800 From: "Bob May" Subject: Re: Re: Motor Reversing Switch If you provide a plug (in this case a supposedly cheap version of a DPDT switch wired for reversing the two wires in relative to the two wires out) for the field windings of a universal motor, you can indeed setup a motor to be reversing with a plug. I will note that providing power to the armature without a field power will fry the motor in short order as there is no back-emf being generated to keep the armature current down to the usable level that will allow the motor to survive. I've seen all kinds of things in my life and using a plug for a switch is one sometimes seen. The only one that really bothered me is the guy that wired up a plug to the power and the socket was the load. That one is a sure means of getting yourself fried. Bob May http://nav.to/bobmay NEW! http://bobmay.astronomy.net ------- Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 19:48:46 -0500 From: "Bill Hardin" Subject: No Big Problem 3 Phase Original Message----- From: mertbaker [mailto:MertBakerx~xxprodigy.net] Sent: Monday, February 10, 2003 7:11 PM To: atlas_craftsmanx~xxyahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [atlas_craftsman] First post new member Most of us don't have 3 ph. power. If you live where you can get it, such motors are perfectly useable. You can get gadgets to make single phase work 3 phase motors, but at the cost (almost) of another motor. Mert Nowadays, a variable frequency drive (VFD) will handle the problem. The VFD takes 220 single phase input, electronically does the conversion (simplified explanation) and output 220 3 phase. This weekend, I set one up for my 109. Used a 1/3HP GE 3 PHase 220 v motor. With a control on the front panel you can vary the speed from just a few rpm to more than the motor rating. You can also switch between forward and reverse, instant braking, more. I have not measured the output speeds yet. VFD is about the size of a toaster, sells for about $100 depending on horsepower rating. Mine is 1/2HP, cost $68 new. I need to learn a lot more, then will have a page on the website with sources and data. Bottom line, don't give up good machine because it is 3 phase. Bill Hardin www.homeshopsupply.com Craftsman & Atlas Lathe Support ------- Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 19:30:36 EST From: LouD31M066x~xxaol.com Subject: Re: First post new member There are several good reasons to avoid 3 Phase motor lathe 1) check cost of getting 3 phase power extended to your shop 2) check cost of getting the various devices that may run 3 phase motor from single phase if you can not get 3 phase 3) Check cost of electrician who will set this up for you on hourly rate 4) Check cost of not getting a safe installation if you try this yourself If you can get 3 phase and if you are qualified to do electrical work this is a doable in my opinion. If you have any questions talk to an industrial electrician and your local utility. This is a project where it is easy to get in over your head first time out. Louis ------- Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 18:52:08 -0600 From: "Pete van der Lugt" Subject: Re: First post new member I think you all are making more out of the three phase option than need be. Once you have three phase, either by having it fed to your shop by the utility (probably an expensive or non existant option if it is a small personal shop) wiring for three phase is extremely simple. If you choose a converter, you have three options: 1. a rotary three phase converter, (a bit expensive because you are buying an extra motor) 2. a static phase converter (inexpensive option, but only gives you about 1/3 of the motors rated output) 3. a variable speed drive, this option takes single phase AC to DC and then back to AC. The good thing is that you retain the power with the added benefit of infinite speed adjustment. Obviously this is a plus for a lathe. These can be pricey, but your lathe is not going to have a large HP motor (I think you said 1.5 HP). Once you've decided on a conversion method, it's a matter of hooking up 4 wires. 3 wires will contain the load voltage, and one ground. Hook the motor up and if it rotates the wrong way switch any two wires and it will reverse the motors rotation. Yes, there are costs involved in any of these options, but if the lathe is purchased at a reasonable price, I think you'll be glad to have three phase power at your disposal. It can also be used for other machines you might purchase. I wouldn't hesitate, and I've chosed the VSD option, and have gotten plans to build the rotary phase converter option as well. Pete Lafayette, LA ------- Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 17:03:20 -0800 From: "Dee Schuyler" Subject: Re: No Big Problem 3 Phase Boy, Do I agree with Bill on this one, I have a South Bend that came with three phase , I bought a VFD and was up and running better than original! It is so nice to be able to speed up, or slow down the machine, and still have plenty of available power! I paid a little more for my unit but it was not much over $200 including shipping. It is a 2hp Teco model Purchased from Dealers Electric. Dee ------- Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2003 21:58:52 -0000 From: "a6fac" Subject: Speed control for Craftsman 109 For those who may be interested, I have switched my 109.20630 to a 220 volt, 3phase, 1/3hp motor and an Hitachi VFD controller. I can go down to single digit spindle RPM, up to full motor speed. I bought both pieces from eBay, the motor a new GE, the VFD such as shown and spec'ed in current auction number 2546432310. The VFD cost $68 at the time and the motor $25. I am greatly pleased by the operation now. Any questions, contact me. Bill Hardin ------- Date: Fri, 26 Dec 2003 14:51:57 -0800 From: Robert Bond Subject: Re: What size motor At 04:29 PM 12/26/03 -0600, dswrx~xxwebtv.net wrote: >Robert wrote; >"I have a 1/2 hp 180V DC motor with a Minarik motor controller on my 6" >Atlas. It works fine - I ended up with the 1/2 HP because it was what I >could find on ebay..." >Hi Robert, >Does Minarik have a web site that catalogs their motor controllers? I am >interested in one of these. Leo (pearland, tx) Looks like http://www.minarikcorp.com/ is the right place. Not all of the info appears to be online right now. Maybe after the Christmas weekend. I just checked - I have an MM23001C Minarik controller and a 1/2HP, 1750 RPM, 180V Leeson Permanent Magnet motor. I found all of it on ebay. It's mounted in a metal box I found at a local electronics store. Bob ------- Date: Sun, 5 Dec 2004 21:43:23 -0500 (EST) From: x xx Subject: Re: Need New Motor Barry wrote: >>I need a new motor for my Atlas 3996. My question is does it have to be the same size and speed or can I go to a bigger, faster motor? It has a 3/4 hp 1725rpm motor on it now and I was thinking of maybe a 1 hp motor. Is this possible or will a higher rpm motor change things? Thanks Barry << A bigger, faster motor does not lead to better, faster work on these little lathes. What it does lead to, is lack of control and damage to the lathe, because the ability of these little machines to absorb and use power is limited by their limberness and propensity to flex under load. A lot of people find that for decent thread cutting on these little hobby machines, they dispense with the motor all together and hand crank the machine with a shopbuilt crank inserted in the left hand end of the head stock. Most hobby work is done between 60 and 300 RPM spindle speed, so your 1/2 horse is geared down at least 1:6 and maybe as much as 1:30 with commensurate mechanical advantage. Sam ------- Date: Sun, 5 Dec 2004 22:35:18 -0600 From: "jerdal" Subject: Re: Re: Need New Motor Not an Atlas, but I have had a 1/3 (yes ONE THIRD) HP motor on the 10" Logan for its entire existence here. I have NEVER strained the motor, the flat belt has ALWAYS slipped before that. It is a rubber composition belt, so it isn't that easy to slip it. I can take off big bites of material, no problem. Jerrold ------- Date: Mon, 6 Dec 2004 01:01:30 -0500 (EST) From: x xx Subject: Re: Need New Motor OK, Chaps. Twas me started the argument - advisedly :-) Maybe not quite cricket, but our new friend has now been able to observe that we each have peculiar work we do each in our peculiar way, and a lathe is like a brush. It's a tool you have to learn to use, and to use to suit your work and your style. I think the consensus is that 3/4HP is plenty for one of these and the speed range afforded by the standard countershaft and bullgear setup will serve the vast majority of hobbyists' needs. And that's really what he was asking about. Cheers Sam ------- Date: Mon, 6 Dec 2004 10:41:00 -0800 From: Frank Perdicaro Subject: New motor tales When I put a new 1/2 hp motor on my lathe, one of the first things I did was to strip the teeth off the bull gear. Yikes, that was a good lesson. With a 3/4 hp motor you can certainly kill the 10" and 12" lathes in a second. ------- Date: Mon, 6 Dec 2004 10:52:43 EST From: catboat15x~xxaol.com Subject: Re: Digest Number 2148 In a message dated 12/5/2004, >can I go to a bigger, faster motor? >It has a 3/4 hp 1725rpm motor on it now No, do not use over the 1725 RPM as your pulleys are sized to give the proper speed with that motor. I used 1/3 HP on both my six and 12 inch Atlas lathes. (No discarded washing machine or dryer is safe in our local dump when I am motor searching.) John Meacham in the high desert of California 12 inch Atlas, Minimill, HF bandsaw, rusty file ------- Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 15:44:54 -0000 From: "Hank" Subject: Re: wiring question [atlas618lathe group] > Does anyone have any ideas on how to figure out what is what > and get reversing to work? David, this is a good question and you've already got some good answers. I'd like to mention that this subject has come up several times before on our list, and that searching likely terms like: reversing, motor, switch, forward, reverse will get you a bunch of helpful past messages. A quick search I just did on "reversing" gave this concise result in archived message #820 by Carl back in January 2005 (partial quote): >> Primarily you will need 4 wires from the motor, 2 for run windings and 2 for start windings, then 2 wires from the line or wall plug. Simply what happens is the line is connected to the run windings in either position, then the start windings are reversed by the switch. << Sometimes the number of switch terminals can be reduced to five by combining common leads. I like this simpler answer to use in conjunction with the much more detailed instructions because it begins to explain the basic function of the motor reversing switch without getting into too many details that can be confusing to digest. For what it's worth, the special switches that do all the above functions can be quite expensive, but if one can tolerate a less slick solution, a pair of the more common and inexpensive types of ordinary toggle (or rocker) switches will work. In that scheme, one switch does the on-off part and one does the reversing part. One has to be very careful if using the two switch method that the reversing switch is never flipped while the on-off switch is in the ON position. Hank ------- Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 20:18:11 -0000 From: "kendall" Subject: Re: wiring question Best bet is to look at the diagram, note which setup is used for the direction it is running now, It will give you a rough idea of what wires are what, and tracing the feed wires you should be able to determine which are the directionals. You at least have the diagram, last one I played with didn't have that and 5 wires (thinking 5th is a ground) to figure out, luckily I got it on the first try. Also, when I run into that problem I borrow some of my girlfriend's nail polish to mark them. If possible, try to get into the wires a little deeper, often you can pull them out a slight bit and see a 'tint' of what color they were, if not, scraping the insulation a bit will often do the same thing. ken ------- Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 21:10:41 +0000 From: cbrumbelowx~xxcomcast.net Subject: Re: wiring question Check out http://www.metalwebnews.com/howto/elec-mtr/elec-mtr.html and I believe your wiring questions will be answered. Charles ------- Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 16:09:13 -0000 From: "Hank" Subject: Re: wiring question The following information, taken from the Metalwebnews version of the R. Lamparter "Home Shop Machining" article, contains a simple method to differentiate the motor start winding from the run winding: "According to an article in "Model Engineer" (Volume 145, Number 3620, November 1979, page 1262) the starting windings have a slightly higher resistance than the running windings. On my Brooks 1.5 hp motor, the starting windings have a resistance of 2.2 ohms and running windings have 1.2 ohms of resistance. Take the utmost care in making these measurements since a dirty contact will alter the measurement." Using that method, together with the basic configuration concept described in Carl's January post, should allow anyone with an unmarked motor to get reversing going with a suitable switch or switches. Hank ------- Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 16:26:23 -0000 From: "Hank" Subject: Very hazardous advice in Lamparter article about motor wiring If I'm reading and understanding the following properly from the Lamparter article, it should have never made it to print. This is very bad advice!!!!! Please ***NEVER*** use the same type of socket (and plug) for 220 as for 110! The proper SAFE fittings are readily available at hardware stores, home improvement superstores, etc. Portable 110 loads should never be able to fit in 220 sockets, and 220 loads should never be able to fit into 110 sockets. A mismatch will lead to quick damage, overheating, and maybe a fire if the fuse or circuit breaker doesn't trip. R. Lamparter quoted from HSM article: "I used the same outlet as I was using for 110v, but painted a sign on the outlet that labeled it as being 220v. I doubt this outlet meets the electrical code since the special receptacles for 220v physically prevent a 110v appliance from being plugged in; however, I feel this practice is acceptable in one's home shop." There may be a few more mistakes in the article, but a quick reading showed this to be probably the only safety related error, but it's a BIGGIE. Hank ------- Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 14:34:01 -0400 From: bepurr Subject: Re: Very hazardous advice in Lamparter article about motor wiring Hank: The whole group owes you a debt of gratitude for pointing out the safety error in the article. There is more than a safety issue here. If there is a fire on the premises, and even though not caused by the wiring discrepancy, your fire insurance could very well be null and void. If someone is injured your liability could be eye-popping. The cost of the proper plug and receptacle are nickel and dime items compared to cost of the consequences. Something to think about. Thanks again, Bryan P. (bepurr) ------- NOTE TO FILE: And mistakes like the above are the reason for strongly (!) suggesting that you have a qualified electrician wire your motors and switches and verify all the electrical components and wiring in your workshop. Wondering if you know how to do something electrical? Don't do it yourself. Use the skills and knowledge of a qualified electrician. ------- From: "jerdal" jerdalx~xxbrick.net Date: Tue Apr 11, 2006 8:41pm(PDT) Subject: Re: re-power options for 12x36 > Has anyone converted a 10/12 inch class of a machine with a DC > motor/controller setup, similar to what the 9x20 guys are doing (Steve > Bedair, for instance)? I have been frustrated with getting a _straight_ > large pulley to remove the wobble in my countershaft. After spending > almost $100 to buy one that is no better than what I have, I have been > contemplating replacing it with a single groove pulley from McMaster. I > don't have the small dual motor pulley anyway so I only have 4 speeds > now. If I spent $100 or so on a DC setup, I could get my high speeds > also and probably get a smoother running setup than I have now (and > cheaper than the ebay russian roulette game). I don't agree that a DC motor "destroys major capability", that's wildly extreme. It can be dealt with. The VFD will be NO BETTER, however, unless you modify the range. BOTH will NOT produce decent power at lower motor speeds. Of course, NEITHER does the belt setup. The belts need to run at a higher speed also, especially flat belts, since they are "pull limited" (flat belts) to about 33 lb per inch width, so 1 HP at 1000 FPM, or 1000 rpm at 4" diameter. V belts are better. With the belt, the DC, OR the VFD, you will NEED at least back gears. I assume you do have that. Essentially, you can get no better than about a 2:1 range from teh VFD before you get into a range where you are probably just under-powered, starting from full speed. Same with the DC. With some setups, such as the Monarch 10EE, you can get a substantially larger range from DC than VFD, but that is with a field-weakening controller, and a motor optimized for middle speed range. The field weakening takes care of the high range at constant HP, the armature control takes care of the lower middle range, or low speed at low power (constant torque), and back gears finish the low range at near full power. Because the motor is optimized for (base speed is in) the middle speed range, it hasn't so far to slow for reasonable lower speeds. You won't have that, so you will be stuck in teh constant torque (variable HP) range for ANY speed reductions used standardly. The one way the VFD can help is if you re-set the range. Set the motor up with a pulley ratio in the middle range, about half or 6/10 RPM. Rely on increased frequency over 60 Hz for the high range, and that way the low range will be covered with reasonable HP. High range will be OK, falling torque, but near-constant HP due to speed. Of course, back gear for low speed power. You will emulate the 10EE DC drive system to some degree, but using an AC motor and VFD. Pulleys: Pulleys are not hard to modify. I have taken common cheap cast hardware store pulleys and cleaned them up for near-perfect smooth operation. Get one with right size, and a slightly smaller bore than needed (1/2 vs 5/8, etc). Put on the faceplate, and center up. Now, bore the pulley to the correct shaft size. Without moving it, clean up the belt groove until you have bright metal all around. The bore and belt groove will be essentially perfectly concentric and run true. You will need to hold it by the spokes, or possibly drill holes in it if it is solid web. Maybe use a chuck if there is enough decent hub to grab, but I find that weak and too movable under cutting forces. You may have to re-cut the keyway, which you can do with a boring bar, and a bit ground to keyway width. Mount and use the carriage as a shaper, moving it back and forth to cut the keyway. Feed in with crossfeed until it's correct. JT ------- Recommended set-up- Variable speed motor/control-618 Atlas [atlas618lathe] Posted by: "Charles & Dorothy Brumbelow" cbrumbelowx~xxcomcast.net Date: Wed Aug 2, 2006 11:43 am (PDT) >> I would like to set up my 618 with a variable speed 1/4 >> or 1/3 or1/2 HP motor and speed control. > Well, I don't have one, but I believe you need to start with > a good DC motor. A number of these have been set up with the surplus tread mill motors available from http://www.surpluscenter.com Controller will likely cost as much as the motor and possibly more. Charles ------- Recommended set-up- Variable speed motor/control-618 ... Posted by: "tooljunkie3j" jetobeyx~xxmsn.com Date: Sat Aug 5, 2006 6:11 am (PDT) > I've got to say I'm a bit curious as to why people think the > variable speed motor is much of an advantage. [snip] John Martin Reply to John: For me it is the fact that I don't have a particularly good AC motor. And, I wanted to avoid the bulk of the countershaft assembly on the bench top. My lathe bench is 24" x 48"-2 1/4 inches thick glued and screwed pattern grade baltic birch 3/4" ply. There is an oak apron rabbeted into the bottom of the ply 1" deep and exposing 5". In the corners of the apron is a 3 1/2 x 3 1/2 oak leg bolted to the apron (total 4). I wanted to keep the area behind the lathe as uncluttered as possible for future taper attachment and perhaps a raised section of drawers for my precision measuring tools and other tooling. Thus, one smallish motor and compact control. Regards, JET ------- Re: Recommended set-up- Variable speed motor/control-618 ... Posted by: "Al" aludtkex~xxearthlink.net Date: Fri Aug 4, 2006 1:39 pm (PDT) > You've already got 4-step pulleys on the jackshaft to spindle > and 2-step pulleys on the motor to jackshaft. Then you've > got back gear vs. direct drive. A total of 16 speeds, spread > over a pretty wide range. OK, some might overlap. But why > would you want any more? That's what I've been wondering too. Perhaps the thing to gain is to extend the range of speeds on either end. But the 618 turns pretty fast already on the top end. If one wanted to turn some soft materials where a higher tool to object speed was needed the much cheaper way to go is to do as some of us have done by setting up a dremmel tool to serve as the cutting tool. An easy way to do this is to fashion a tool holder to hold the flex shaft of the dremmel tool in the tool post of the 618. But if you really wanted the lathe itself to turn faster you could just put another set of pulleys on the motor shaft and the countershaft. But to make the 618 turn faster than it already does I think would be asking for trouble. Now on the other end of the scale - rigging the 618 to turn slower - is no problem. Just put the set of pulleys on the motor shaft and the countershaft. I did this so I now have a three step setup and it works fine. With the 1725 RPM motor I now have my slowest spindle speed of approximately 20 3/4 RPM. I wanted to turn some rigid plastic foam and slowing the 618 to have better control of the feed rate in conjunction with the dremmel setup works just fine. I had some problems initially with the extra pulley on the motor shaft causing the most distant of the three to loosen but the guys here on this forum solved that for me by recommending thread lock. And thanks again for that good advice. But maybe I'm missing something; maybe there is an application for which an exact spindle speed between the available steps is necessary. I'm curious to what that may be though. Would be interesting if someone would tell us. Al ------- Re: Recommended set-up- Variable speed motor/control-618 ... Posted by: "kendall" merc2dogsx~xxhotmail.com Date: Sat Aug 5, 2006 6:14 am (PDT) > I'm curious to what that may be though. > Would be interesting if someone would tell us. Al It's more convenience than anything I think, I used to go from aluminum to iron to brass to steel etc all in the same sitting, and it would have been great to be able to just adjust a knob for speed changes. ken ------- Re: Recommended set-up- Variable speed motor/control-618 ... Posted by: "azbruno" azbrunox~xxyahoo.com Date: Sat Aug 5, 2006 8:01 am (PDT) For me, it would simply be the convenience of not moving belts around. My gears are very well lubricated, and the belt does not stay clean, so I'm always getting grease on my hands for every belt change, which happens a lot. I have a 2hp treadmill motor waiting installation... I really need to get on it. Bruno ------- Re: Recommended set-up- Variable speed motor/control-618 Atlas Posted by: "tooljunkie3j" jetobeyx~xxmsn.com Date: Tue Aug 8, 2006 9:11 am (PDT) Thanks to all who had input to my original question. As it turns out, the lead to "richardsfoundry" was the winner. He has a setup, that while not cheap, is perfect. High torque DC motor, enough HP and a compact size with reversing motor and switch. I have invested quite a bit in upgrading my 618, with all steel gears except for two (64 on banjo/tumbler and spindle drive gear) which are left for weak link purposes. The TIR on the rebuilt spindle is down to .00015 cold. With all that I have put into it, to me, the $290 power source is worth the investment. My 618 will see lots of wood turning and the near infinite speed control will be more than handy. By the way, the skeptics were just as helpful, opening my mind to disadvantages also. Regards, Mike Tobey ------- Re: Recommended set-up- Variable speed motor/control-618 Atlas Posted by: "Hank" n1ltvx~xxyahoo.com Date: Wed Aug 9, 2006 5:33 pm (PDT) > As it turns out, the lead to "richardsfoundry" was the winner. He has a > setup, that while not cheap,is perfect. High torque DC motor, enough > HP and a compact size with reversing motor and switch. "richardsfoundry" appears to be an Ebay seller ID. Mike, can you confirm that's the link you're talking about. Hank ------- Re: Recommended set-up- Variable speed motor/control-618 Atlas Posted by: "J E TOBEY" jetobeyx~xxmsn.com Date: Sat Aug 12, 2006 8:27 am (PDT) Yes, he is on ebay. The link to him was put in someone's reply to me, or was pointed out to me in a reply. I found him by dumb luck looking for controllers. I did not find him with a seller search, because I do not know how to do that. In any event, he understood my needs and gave sound advice. He responded to my naïve questions without making me feel like an idiot. What he offers that is not so easily found is high torque with a decent use cycle and all pre-wired-"plug and play." Could explain AC input and its relationship to transformed or rectified DC output, heat dissipation and non-linear ratio of input to output. Next, I'll be talking to a fellow I was directed to on a wood turner's forum that sells speed controls and a tach that converts to SFM for mills and lathes and combos. J.E. Tobey ------- Re: A ? About motor size on a 12 x 36 Craftsman lathe Posted by: "John Williams" hogleg_willyx~xxsbcglobal.net Date: Mon Aug 21, 2006 7:52 am (PDT) Paul K. wrote: >I am considering putting a new drive motor on my 12 x 36 lathe. I would >like some advise on size. I have the opportunity to get a very good >price on a 2HP 3 Phase motor. Is the 2 HP motor big enough for the lathe? 1/2 horse is ideal. I have a 1/2 horse 3 phase on mine, so that I could use a VFD to get variable speed. Original size was 1/2 horse 1 phase... 2hp is overkill, IMO. BTW, my 1/2 horse 3 phase is a Baldor that I got on ebay for $50.00. They regularly can be had for that price range... John ------- Re: A ? About motor size on a 12 x 36 Craftsman lathe Posted by: "JAMES BLACKETT" jamesrblackettx~xxbtinternet.com Date: Mon Aug 21, 2006 12:24 pm (PDT) As long as you don't want to do heavy work, a smaller motor is no problem - maybe you have to take longer to do an operation, but does that matter? Also, should something go wrong (I know it never happens to me !!!) there is less possibility of damage to the machine, material and operator and that must be a good thing. regards James ------- Motor for ATLAS 10" Lathe [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: "sr71_bb2001" Ronald_Rubenx~xxHotmail.com Date: Sat Apr 14, 2007 11:37 am ((PDT)) I am a newbie and I am moving my ATLAS TH42 10" to an original stand I just finished restoring, it includes a motor mount hanging down from the rear. The old motor I had mounted to a homemade mount on another bench and there is now way the motor will align with the pulley. What kind of motor should I buy to match the original mount?? Specifically what frame number, 1/2 horsepower ok?, the pulley is 5/8" bore and has a 1/8" keyway. Should I go with a reversing motor?? Any suggestions on a source(??), I have a Graingers nearby. I know questions, questions... Thanks for any assistance Ron ------- Motor for ATLAS 10" Lathe Posted by: "catboat15x~xxaol.com" Date: Sun Apr 15, 2007 12:42 pm ((PDT)) I am not sure, but I think present day motors are quite a bit smaller in physical size than when our "gems" were originally manufactured. On my 12 inch I have always had to make up some kind of adaptor plate to get everything lined up. (But, then I am a big fan of dumpster diving, and usually have reclaimed washing machine motors etc on my tools.) As insurance for the lathe I have always used nominal 1/3 HP motors for my lathe (rather stall the motor than break something irreplaceable.) I would not recommend a reversible motor for any lathe that uses a threaded chuck, face plate etc then the running of the lathe in reverse would tend to loosen whatever is screwed onto the spindle. Some machinists use the lathe in reverse for cut off work with the tool mounted in back of the spindle, but not advised with a threaded spindle again. I suppose in cutting some left hand threads running the lathe in reverse (to reverse the lead screw) would help too. Sorry I can't give you a current NEMA mount number for what the original lathe had for a motor. John Meacham from the high deserts of Calif 12 inch Atlas lathe, mini mill, HF band saw and a rusty file. ------- Motor for ATLAS 10" Lathe Posted by: "sr71_bb2001" Ronald_Rubenx~xxHotmail.com Date: Sun Apr 15, 2007 6:28 pm ((PDT)) Many thanks that makes a lot of sense... I will heed it.... I appreciate the response... Take Care Ron ------- Re: Motor for ATLAS 10" Lathe Posted by: "Rexarino" rexarinox~xxgmail.com Date: Mon Apr 16, 2007 12:16 am ((PDT)) I respectfully disagree. I have a reversing 3/4 hp motor on a 12 inch Atlas/Craftsman lathe, that was purchased for that machine when new. I have spun many items in reverse (3 jaw, 4 jaw, and faceplate work) by carefully engaging the belts after starting the motor. The only time I ever spun a chuck loose was an accidental start in reverse at a belt- engaged high speed - and I was able to stop the lathe before the chuck came off even then. Of course, I've only used the lathe since 1975, so maybe I haven't got enough experience to say. Morse collets are perfectly safe to run in either direction, and are a dream for left or right hand threading of rod. If I were to choose a motor today, I would get either a good surplus reversible variable speed dc motor; or; a 3 phase ac motor and VFD. The advantages of variable speed are wonderful, especially when you want something of large diameter to spin "just a bit slower than Holy Cow", or you want to speed up as you get closer to the center of the piece you are facing, or you want to slow down for that larger diameter, or... A recent discussion here seems to imply that most people own or favor a 1/2 hp motor, and that was claimed to be the recommendation for the 12" lathe. But even if you power the lathe with a 1/4 hp motor, in back gear, at the lowest speed, the available torque at the headstock can still "break" most anything that might go snap on the lathe, so I don't think under powering the lathe gives any real safety. Learning the feel of the lathe is the only truly safe way to operate it. I wouldn't give up my 3/4 hp for anything except a variable speed of the equivalent torque, and I've never broken anything but cutting tools and drill bits. I occasionally take a hogging cut, especially when I'm working stainless or cast iron, because stainless work hardens, and you often need to dig in and get under the "skin" of cast iron. I even occasionally make a mistake, and run into the chuck, or bump the tailstock under power, or lots of other oop'ses, but really, the Atlas is a marvelous tool, and they aren't very fragile. I never liked old VW's, because they felt underpowered - maybe I'm a torque freak? You will note that I'm not a purist, although I applaud those who are pleased by owning and/or restoring a good quality tool such as the Atlas. My lathe is a tool to me, not a shrine, but it would be very easy for me to fall in love with such a beauty as I own, and I fully understand those that believe that original is the only way. In the end, you should get the best motor you can afford. If you bought a 1 hp motor, you could leave the belts a bit looser and still have the "stall" safety that an underpowered motor might provide. If you buy a continuous duty enclosed motor, you'll never have metal chips inside the motor shell, and no explosion hazard when you decide to spray paint the latest project with lacquer. If you get a variable speed motor, you might forget how to change belts between pulley sizes (Oh, Woe is me, weeping crocodile tears). Now please excuse me while I step away from the monitor and don a flameproof suit! rexarino ------- Wiring... was Re: Serial Number - Date database posted in files [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: "Glenn" glennx~xxentropian.com Date: Sun Sep 9, 2007 3:58 am ((PDT)) "Anthony Hovis" wrote: > I have a question for someone out there. Could you tell me if these are > supposed to be grounded or not. I changed the wiring and just put in > what I had on hand but it's just 2-conductor wire so if this should be > grounded, I'll have to pull it out or just add a grounding wire. Yes, when re-wiring you should add a ground wire; To provide its measure of safety, the ground wire should be attached to the motor chassis, metal electrical box at the switch, body of the machine, and to a grounded plug and outlet. By grounding everything metal, you provide a return path should the either of the current carrying conductors come loose or come in contact with anything metal at any point along the way. Basically alleviates the risk of electrocution if wiring comes loose or insulator fails which can happen in old motors and old wiring. ------- Re: To ground or not to ground.... THAT is the question. Posted by: "Richard Schaal" rschaal_95135x~xxyahoo.com Date: Sun Sep 9, 2007 4:09 am ((PDT)) I'd go ahead and ground the beast...Unless you are running it on a GFI. Mine is both grounded and on a GFI. The electrical code here calls for GFI protection most all outlets in the garage where my lathe is. With all the expertise in this group making chips, there seems to be less when it comes to wiring. Take a step toward safety! Richard ------- Re: Serial Number - Date database posted in files Posted by: "uhmgawa" uhmgawax~xxthird-harmonic.com Date: Sun Sep 9, 2007 5:57 am ((PDT)) As others have suggested you'd be best to ground all discrete parts of the lathe to which electrical components mount. Don't rely on electrical conduction by bearings or other moving joints to accomplish this task. Eg: if there is a switch in the head, ground the head at the switch in addition to grounding the motor frame. Similarly if you have an outboard reversing switch. Personally while grounding is important it is arguably more important to get that 50+ year old wiring the hell out of there. Insulation decomposition along with generally less stringent safety practices make that wiring a candidate for the trash can. Moreover any "enhancements" made by previous owners enjoying less than UL accepted methods really needs to go. I only wish I took a picture of the NEC haunted house I had on my hands before cleaning up that mess. Truly impressive complete with exposed and taped joints singing in the breeze a few inches behind the head and a motor starter winding of an otherwise non-reversible motor mined out of it headed to an unmounted reversing switch via ungrounded conduit. uhmgawa ------- Re: To ground or not to ground.... THAT is the question. Posted by: "Glenn" glennx~xxentropian.com Date: Sun Sep 9, 2007 4:07 pm ((PDT)) I wouldn't assume a GFCI would completely protect you if used on an ungrounded circuit. GFCIs trip on an imbalance in the current in the two legs (hot & common, black & white) IIRC something like 2 mA or 20mA. You could still be shocked and I believe could still be electrocuted if you are completing either of the legs and are yourself, isolated from ground or any other path for the current to take - an unlikely condition to be sure but not impossible. It doesn't sound like much current, but under the right (or rather wrong!) circumstances, could still cause harm especially around machinery. If a ground is there, loose wires or failed insulation "leaks" will likely flow via the ground wire and trip the GFCI With no ground, it would flow through you to ground, quickly tripping the GFCI, but possibly not before causing you to make an involutary movement - a risk around machines. Ground it AND use GFCIs if they are called for by your local code. Better safe than sorry. ------- Re: To ground or not to ground.... THAT is the question. Posted by: "jtiggr" jtiggr713x~xxyahoo.com Date: Sun Sep 9, 2007 9:53 pm ((PDT)) Always ground, certainly the motor. And if you have them: the light, the lube oil pump/motor, adjustable speed drive. If the frame/shell of any of the above also are in contact with the metal parts of the lathe (unless heavily painted), then the lathe is mostly grounded too (but then I don't really like a daisy-chain ground system). I'm running the original 1950's Atlas 120V 1Phase motor. One of the first things done when cleaning the whole mess was to remove the old, worn and bad athletic-taped parts. Wiring to the motor was replaced with new cable/wire (the usual black stuff (type SO or SJ) you see in the hardware store, 3 conductor (black-white-green) and 12 gauge). The black & whites went to the original terminal posts, and the green wire received a crimp-on ring lug which was quickly secured to the inside of the cast terminal box with a machine screw (making sure that there was intimate and assured bonding). For $30, I bought a nifty industrial type start-stop switch box from Sears Parts. It was meant for a large, top-of-the-line table saw, but it has a great on button, and a very large red paddle for OFF. Easy to find, no accuracy needed: give it a slap with any body part or accurately thrown chunk of iron, and it turns off instantly. Another recommendation: you can't have enough power outlets in the shop. Run the lathe (and other power tools) off of a separate breaker from your shop lights, and have at least two shop lights on separate breakers. Seems obvious when mentioned, but when the light went out, and the table saw was still runing, it soon made a believer out of me. Good luck. jtiggr ------- Re: To ground or not to ground.... THAT is the question. Posted by: "Anthony Hovis" anthonyhovisx~xxhotmail.com Date: Sun Sep 9, 2007 11:14 pm ((PDT)) Many thanks to everyone for all the very informative responses. By the sounds of things I guess I had better get some other wire in it that has a ground. Another reason I didn't (other than I didn't have any) was because the wiring I took out didn't have the ground either but it certainly didn't look to be a "factory" wiring job. I really can't say if GFI's are code here or not but I guess I better add one of those to and make sure none of the "juice" is running through any bearings or shafts and such. When I cleaned up the lathe I had considered taking the end's off of the motor and cleaning that to but I decided not to, not yet anyway as it is very dirty and dusty inside. Hopefully before the motor starts overheating from not having enough airflow I'll get it cleaned. "Jtigger" mentioned outlets; I have the lathe sitting right next to the breaker box so it's on its own outlet. Having one those large switches sounds like a good idea, it would make it quicker to turn off if something ever did happen. Thanks again for all great info and good ideas. I guess have some more wiring to do. Ton ------- SAFETY NOTE TO FILE: Re: To ground or not to ground.... THAT is the question. As always, if you have any doubt as to the proper technique required to safely wire your lathe or other machine or appliance (or if there is any question as to your competence or ability in this matter), please spend the money to have a professional licenced electrician do the work for you. While he is at your shop, also have him inspect the rest of the shop wiring and bring everything safely up to code. Those relatively few dollars are a wise investment in your continued health and safety. ------- motor power for Atlas Craftsman 12" [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: "ahz" ahzx~xxinsightbb.com Date: Sat Oct 20, 2007 5:20 pm ((PDT)) What's an appropriate horsepower motor for the Atlas Craftsman 12"? My old 1.5 hp Baldor has dead bearings. ------- Re: motor power for Atlas Craftsman 12" Posted by: "LouD31M066x~xxaol.com" Date: Sat Oct 20, 2007 5:27 pm ((PDT)) Bearings (if not plain bearing) are replaceable. 1.5 hp is twice as much as largest motor offered by Atlas. My 12 inch has 1/3 hp (and it had dry bearings which I replaced with new...no big deal). Louis ------- Re: motor power for Atlas Craftsman 12" Posted by: "TCHarex~xxaol.com" TCHarex~xxaol.com Date: Sat Oct 20, 2007 8:32 pm ((PDT)) I would not uprate above what the original lathe motor was rated for. I think that the original designers would not specify a motor that was smaller than what was needed. It would cost more in the long run, because it would make them less competitive, but the bigger issue is that if you ever crash it you will probably do more damage to parts that have been out of production for many years. Tim Allen from the TV Show "Tooltime" would say, MORE POWER!!, but I don't think that is right in this case. I am a member of this group, not because I own one, but because this group has more members than my brand's group. so I learn more here. (I own a Logan 10 inch.) Maybe this remark does not apply to Sears/Atlas, but my old Logan 10 inch is quite happy with 1/3 HP and 1750 RPM. Note, I said I would not "uprate", but I did not say I would not "upgrade". This might be a good chance to get a variable speed. Especially if you tell the wife (and perhaps yourself) that you really don't have any choice as the old motor is shot. :D Regards Tom ------- Re: motor power for Atlas Craftsman 12" Posted by: "jerdalx~xxsbcglobal.net" Date: Sat Oct 20, 2007 9:02 pm ((PDT)) I also have a Logan with 1/3 HP.... and it is enough, although the Logan is built heavier than the Atlas. I TOTALLY agree with the "upgrade" suggestion. The most meaningful and useful upgrade you can do is to go 3 phase. You get 3 phase either with a VFD (electronic box) or a Rotary Phase Converter (basically a larger motor with some added parts), if you don't have direct access to it. The benefits in smoother power and freedom from chatter are immense. I realize you are maybe new to machine work. If so, you will soon learn why the above is important, and may wish you had done it, although it may seem like overkill now. JT ------- Lathe Wiring (Craftsman model 12L SN 10127440 [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: "dreamsseven2003" dreamsseven2003x~xxyahoo.com Date: Sun Jun 29, 2008 9:29 am ((PDT)) I'm a new member and hope there is someone out there who can help me. I bought the lathe and to be able for two of us to pick it up and put it in my van, we took off all the parts which we could to reduce weight. Unfortunately, we disconnected the wiring!! Now I cannot figure out which wires go where. Placing the wires where I thought they should go, the lathe rotated in reverse but did nothing in the forward position. If I switched the orange stripe and the green stripe the motor runs in the forward direction. (Rotating the 115 volt plug in the power recepticle also changes the motor direction which it should not do. Does anyone have a wiring diagram for this lathe or if someone lives around the middle east coast of Florida, I would be happy to drive over and look at their lathe and wiring if they would allow that. It seems as if there is probably something already on the Group information but I can not seem to find it. Thanks so very much, Dick Hahn ------- Re: Lathe Wiring (Craftsman model 12L SN 10127440 Posted by: "Rexarino" rexarinox~xxgmail.com Date: Sun Jun 29, 2008 6:04 pm ((PDT)) Try this link. You may have to join the group, or I can send the files via email if you have broadband, or are patient. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/atlas_craftsman_pics/files/Motor_and_Rev ersing_Switch_info/ Question for the group in general, should I move these files from the a_c_pics group, to this group? rexarino ------- Re: Lathe Wiring (Craftsman model 12L SN 10127440 Posted by: "Jim Ash" ashcanx~xxearthlink.net Date: Mon Jun 30, 2008 5:47 am ((PDT)) Nice timing. I just went through the exact same drill, except mine has been apart for 3 years. I started putting it back together a couple weeks ago, got it running and finally cut some metal on Saturday. Having lived this dream before, I normally try to take notes on disassembly (including wiring), but didn't for this one. I just spent 20 minutes rooting through my shop, desk, and probable places looking for the charts I just sketched up to get me through it, but didn't find them. I normally save this stuff in a file, but I haven't quite finished with the lathe setup yet, so stuff is still everywhere. My motor is an original Atlas. My switch has six terminals and was manufactured by Furnas. A lot of times, especially for convertible motors, there's a hook-up chart on the motor. There wasn't this time. My normal approach with unknown switches and motors is to bust out my multimeter and see what's connected to what, which is what I did two weeks ago. Sometimes I take switches and motors apart to make sense of things and to see if anything bad lurks inside (worn or broken parts, bug parts, etc), which I also did this time. What threw me for a loop was that the neutral line from the plug was cut even with the insulation, while all the other wires still had bare metal sticking out. The only things that make any sense are that #1 - Whoever wired it up before me ran the motor from the hot lead through the ground lead (the neutral was never used), and #2 - nothing was ever grounded. I probably wouldn't have taken it all apart if I knew those things out of the gate. Towards the end of my voyage of discovery, I found the motor hookup chart, on the inside of the terminal cover box lid on the motor. If I'd seen this first it would have saved me a lot of time. It had two charts; one for 110v and the other for 220v. I mapped the colors of the motor leads to the colors of the wires going to the switch box (four wires) then closed it back up. Mine is wired for 110v (at least for now). Per the chart in 110v configuration, two of these wires get connected to the hot and neutral to run (and both disconnected to stop). The other two (I'll arbitrarily call them #A and #B), get connected to the hot (#A) and neutral (#B) to run forward, or switched (#B-hot, #A-neutral) for reverse, and both disconnected to stop. For switches with more than a couple terminals like this, I draw up a 'who's connected to whom' matrix chart with a box for each of the possibilities, then fill it in by probing with my meter. Combining the chart from above with the wiring chart from the motor (and the new color-codes of the wires running to the switch), it became obvious how things needed to be hooked up. Sorry if this is a bit general. If you'd like specific assistance, let me know and we'll go through it. If you do, yank the terminal cover off your motor first and see if the chart is there. Jim Ash ------- treadmill motor selection and setup - yet again [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: "markjohanhatch" mark2382x~xxhotmail.com Date: Sat Nov 8, 2008 5:57 am ((PST)) Hi all, I looking to convert my 6 inch (model 618) to a DC motor with variable control. I did the usual searches of the archive for "treadmill" and "dc motor", but didn't get the answers to what seems to me to be pretty basic questions. 1. Do people keep the countershaft or do they connect the DC motor up directly to the spindle? 2. The standard AC motor is 1725 1/4 - 1/3 horse. The DC motors like: http://www.surpluscenter.com/item.asp?UID=2008110807500209&item= 10-1783&catname=electric or http://www.surpluscenter.com/item.asp?UID=2008110807500209&item= 10-1751&catname=electric Run at 3450 or 6750 rpm - I assume people just step down the speed with the right selection of pulley's. 3. The "old recommendations" for dc motors at surplus center are long since gone. Any current recommendations? (The two above are my candidates, the second is half the price and 2.5hp and 2x the rpm.) Thanks! Mark ------- Re: treadmill motor selection and setup - yet again Posted by: "Michael Michalski" pflatlynex~xxyahoo.com Date: Sat Nov 8, 2008 6:42 am ((PST)) As far as I know there is no need for the counter shaft with the dc motor. I would think you would just make a bracket to hold the motor, and choose a sheave such that along with one of the ones on the spindle shaft,you get the highest speed you want, with the highest speed of the motor. For anything else, you just slow the motor down. An example is here: http://ph.groups.yahoo.com/group/atlas618lathe/photos/browse/d8ab The one thing I don't like about it is the place they put the motor. I would be tempted to mount the motor the other way. The way he had it, I would be worried that at some time in the future I might want to do something that needs clear access from that side and the motor might get in the way. Perhaps I'm wrong, but I wouldn't want to preclude that option should I need it. The downside is that the motor would project behind the headstock. (Maybe I don't find that too objectional because I have a very old 6" that has the shorter counter shaft that mounts the motor with the pulley end facing the same direction as the chuck, that is, I have to mount my motor backward anyway.) ------- Re: treadmill motor selection and setup - yet again Posted by: "KD" KDsalezx~xxcox.net Date: Sat Nov 8, 2008 9:27 am ((PST)) I would suggest you would definitely want to retain your jackshaft. Consider the 2.5 HP, 6750 rpm motor. At 50 volts it would produce roughly 3/4 HP at about 2500 no load rpm. Both power and rpm are above your standard motor yet this motor is operating at less than 1/3 of its capacity. At some point as you slow it down, depending on the controller, the number of windings is going to become a possible source of vibration from the pulsing of each phase. Over-heating is also going to be more prevalent as the speed slows under load. The one HP will exhibit the same potential problems but not as pronounced. If you double the ratio of the sheaves from the motor to the jackshaft you will get the same rpm as the original system going into the lathe drive. You will then have to be very careful since you now have the equivalent torque of a 2 HP motor turning at 1750 rpm going into a mechanical system designed for about 15% of that. With either set up you can break things very easily. If you can control the maximum torque with your controller then you might have the best of both worlds. TR ------- Re: treadmill motor selection and setup - yet again Posted by: "pflatlyne" pflatlynex~xxyahoo.com Date: Sat Nov 8, 2008 8:26 pm ((PST)) Why use a dc motor then? Why not a ac induction motor with a vfd? (There are some nice ones at a local surplus shop for anywhere from 20-70 dollars.... and of course I'm broke right now.) The ones I was looking at all allow you to specify the maximum current that you can supply to the motor. Below the synchronous speed it will put out constant torque,above constant horsepower (with falling torque) It seems ideal. I'm thinking, just set up the max speed to be the synchronous speed (both in your pulleys and the vfd programming) and then you have constant torque over your entire range. ------- Re: treadmill motor selection and setup - yet again Posted by: "jerdalx~xxsbcglobal.net" Date: Sun Nov 9, 2008 6:52 am ((PST)) The DC motor will have the same issues and problems as the AC and vice- versa. The DC motor will have the same general characteristics of torque and HP as the AC motor has, vs speed. At VERY low speeds, the DC motor may show "cogging" due to the poles, but at that speed the AC motor will have problems as well, including a serious lack of cooling, which means you do NOT get full torque without overheating. The most sensible solution is ALWAYS to use the jackshaft, or counter- shaft, with various pulley ratios available and to use a motor of a suitable HP for the machine. That way you can get nearly full HP at any speed, and with EITHER a DC or AC motor, you can have the speed adjustability as well. Never count on a usable speed variability of more than at the most 5:1. Even there you will see problems. The best is to expect about 3:1 and work with that. Even the Monarch 10EE, which has a DC motor system that has features you will not get with a regular DC drive or VFD, uses a mechanical speed change as well. JT ------- Re: treadmill motor selection and setup - yet again Posted by: "rfmarchix~xxaol.com" Date: Sun Nov 9, 2008 7:13 am ((PST)) I'm mystified as to why folks are so enthusiastically trying to avoid the tried and true jack shaft/multiple pulley systems these lathes were designed to use for speed control. As has been pointed out, any home built variable speed solution has risks of pulsing, overheating, limited speed range, etc. Other than for maintaining a constant cutting speed in fpm on a large facing cut, the effort to change belts is trivial on most countershaft setups. These are fun, antique machines. Half the fun of using them is to play with the gears and pulleys. If I wanted a production machine, it would be CNC. For a commercial model shop I'd be using Hardinge and Monarch, not Atlas or Sears. Slow down... enjoy life... change a few pulleys and gears! ------- NOTE TO FILE: Be sure to read the SAFETY WARNING near the start of this file. If you are not absolutely sure what is necessary for the proper wiring of a switch or switches, have a professional electrician do it for you. Be safe. ------- Re: Craftsman motor [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: "Rexarino" rexarinox~xxgmail.com Date: Tue Jan 6, 2009 5:27 pm ((PST)) On Jan 6, 2009 wrote: > would you please give some more detail on how you did the wiring > and what a six pole toggle switch might look like or be used for? If you join the atlas_craftsman_pics yahoo group, there is a file folder showing numerous wiring diagrams for various motors and their connection to a commercial drum reversing switch. If those diagrams don't give you a pretty good idea, then you need to post lots of information about your motor for anyone to really help. Here's the link; http://groups.yahoo.com/group/atlas_craftsman_pics/files/Mot or_and_Reversing_Switch_info/ ------- Re: Craftsman motor Posted by: "Jon Elson" elsonx~xxpico-systems.com Date: Tue Jan 6, 2009 7:22 pm ((PST)) Robert Silas wrote: > Lance. Tomorrow I have to buy such a 6-pole toggle switch. I will also make a diagram, take photos of them and will e-mail all to you with some explanations. I have to e-mail it to your own e-mail, I don't know how to upload to Yahoo's picture albums, besides I see no reason for that either. < Actually, a reversing switch only needs 3 double-throw poles to do reversing. Any 3-pole, double-throw, center-off switch with adequate current rating should do. (It also needs to be break-before-make, but that would be normal in power switches like that.) It takes one DPDT pair to reverse the start winding, and then the remaining SPDT section turns the motor on in either on position. Jon ------- Re: Craftsman motor Posted by: "Robert Silas" robert.silasx~xxvideotron.ca Date: Tue Jan 6, 2009 8:31 pm ((PST)) Jon, (and Lance) I am not as experienced as you are and electricity and electronics are far from my best side. How I happened to come to that solution was a case where I had to reverse the horizontal mill's rotation. I took the motor to an electric-motor place where they gave me big stories about the trials they have to do for that job and they did not want to do it. I went home, looked at the motor's small panel and realised that there are only two wires which could be reversed. I took a chance and it worked. Then, I figured that this could be done by a switch at will. I brought the switchable wires to the center poles of the 6-pole switch and returned them from the first set of DP, then cross wire them at the second set of DPs. This way one position of the toggle switch kept the wires as they were and the other position reversed them. Then I needed a switch for on/off power. Of course I needed 4 wires to do that and another two for the on/off switch. That was my amateur solution. I suppose the rpm switching toggle called DPDT (I do not know what DT stands for). And the on/off switch is the SPDT (DT=??) Thanks for the advice, next time I'll experiment with that arrangement. Robert ------- Re: Craftsman motor Posted by: "carvel webb" carvelwx~xxabsamail.co.za Date: Tue Jan 6, 2009 10:58 pm ((PST)) Hi Robert: You are spot on, and talking the same thing as Jon, we just need to spell out the buzz words. P = Pole D = Double S = Single T = Throw One switchable electrical set of contacts is referred to as a "Pole" So what you are referring to as a 6 pole switch, is actually a 6 contact switch, and is the same as Jon's 3 pole . If the switch switches over from one side to the other with no centre off position it is referred to as "Single Throw (ST)", while with centre off it would be "Double Throw (DT)" i.e. it could 'throw' one way or the other. So you are looking for 3 sets of contact (Poles), and centre OFF i.e Double throw, and the switch would therefore be described to an electrical shop as "3 pole, double throw" with say 10 amp rating, which would have the 6 pins on the back you describe. Your wiring thereof is precisely correct. Regards, Carvel ------- Re: Craftsman motor Posted by: "Scott Henion" shenionx~xxshdesigns.org Date: Tue Jan 6, 2009 11:06 pm ((PST)) It can also be done with two switches. One for the direction and another for on/off. Scott G. Henion Consultant Stone Mountain, GA SHDesigns http://www.shdesigns.org ------- Re: Craftsman motor Posted by: "jerdalx~xxsbcglobal.net" Date: Wed Jan 7, 2009 5:33 am ((PST)) > It can also be done with two switches. One for the direction and another > for on/off. And that is probably superior. Gives you one target, that does only one thing, for you to to hit.... the center-off switches usually go right thru center if you are not careful. If you hit the switch for "off" in a hurry, it would be nice, usually, for the machine to ACTUALLY STOP. It might, in some circumstances, be "most annoying" (or worse) if it were to just keep running with the switch in the "other on" position. Any single phase motor will run the same direction with the switch in either position, unless it is allowed to stop before reversing. Personally, I like the "on" and "off" button setup, with a contactor or relay. JT ------- upgrade to my 618 [atlas618lathe] Posted by: "John Bump" johnbumpx~xxgmail.com Date: Wed Oct 28, 2009 10:07 pm ((PDT)) When I bought my 618, it came without a motor, and consequently without the two-step pulley, so I grabbed one of the motors from my pile of motors (as it so happens, it's pretty much exactly the same motor that the original came with: a 1/2HP Dunlap) and stuck a random single-wide pulley on it, and that's how I've been running it. Well, I finally got frustrated with that setup for a number of reasons, so I was poking around on MSC, looking at their aircraft drills (I'm making a spindle for a homebuilt lathe and need to centerdrill a piece of 12" long steel: blergh!) and saw their pulley offering. They had some 1/2" bore 4-step pulleys, diameter 2,3,4 and 5, for $19 each. I bought two and a piece of 1/2" drill rod, and tonight I used an end mill (at first) and a bench grinder (when I got cold and frustrated) to put flats on the drill rod, loaded on the original four-step pulley that drives the spindle, the two collars, and my new 4-step pulley, put the other one on the motor, and now have a 32-speed lathe. (I think I did the math right...) Nice thing about drill rod is it comes polished to a gorgeous finish so it can serve as a bearing surface right out of the box. The best thing about the upgrade is now it's *much* quieter. The old layshaft was pretty scored, and as it turns out the bronze bushing on the motor side of the layshaft is very worn, so at some point I'll have to replace that. But in the meantime, it's quiet and really wide-range. Yay! ------- VFD on Atlas 12" - What a Difference! [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: "Daniel Nelson" djnx~xxieee.org Date: Sat Nov 21, 2009 6:57 pm ((PST)) Hi folks....I just finished putting a VFD (Variable Frequency Drive) onto my 12" Alas. Boy! What a difference...I never thought there would be so much difference between the single phase motor and the three phase one. There have been lots of posts about single phase motors having a torque 'shake', but I never thought it would be so much. With the 3 phase motor, the lathe runs smooth as glass....It also doesn't cause the cutter to chatter on the work. You really have to get nasty to get the old motor bounce, bed twist that was so easy to get with the single phase motor. I am a convert. Costs less than $200 and takes about half the pain away of the light frame bed! Best! Regards, Daniel J. Nelson ------- Re: VFD on Atlas 12" - What a Difference! Posted by: "Jon Elson" elsonx~xxpico-systems.com Date: Sun Nov 22, 2009 12:34 pm ((PST)) Well, there's another testimonial. Both of my Atlas machines (a wrecked and cobbled back together 10" Atlas, and later a 12" Craftsman in great shape) had so much shake in the high-range that you'd never notice the motor shake. I think that was all about the countershaft pulley being damaged. In the lower range, I think you could hear the the hum of the motor coming up under load. I have all 3-phase motors and VFDs on my current machines, and they do fine. I am a convert just because of the variable speeds, and the braking provided by the VFD. The Bridgeport has an inconvenient to reach mechanical brake, but I want to save it for collet changing. The Sheldon lathe has no brake at all, and being able to stop the chuck in less than a second seems like a real safety feature. Jon ------- Re: VFD on Atlas 12" - What a Difference! Posted by: "Russ Kepler" russx~xxkepler-eng.com Date: Sun Nov 22, 2009 2:50 pm ((PST)) I also like VFDs on most of my equipment. Ironically, the Atlas is about the only equipment in the shop without one. I'd like make a comment on the brake: don't go overboard on the braking with the threaded spindle. It's fun to try it right up to the point that there's a 30 pound chuck bouncing on the ways. > being able to stop the chuck in less than a second seems like a real > safety feature. On my Lagun I initially set the decelleration time to 1 second, found that was pretty abrupt and reset to 5 seconds. After that I found myself fighting with the drive - I was used to stopping the freewheeling spindle by grabbing it with my hand, and the drive was having to push the spindle for a couple of seconds. Kind of strange to feel the drive doing that. I finally settled on 2 seconds as a decent decell time - it stops about when I have the new tooling ready and I'm not tempted to grab it to stop it. ------- Re: dead motor [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: "Scott Henion" shenionx~xxshdesigns.org Date: Mon Nov 23, 2009 9:57 am ((PST)) VBrannick wrote: > Recent threads have addressed the question of single phase vs.3-phase, and the concensus seems to suggest that the latter is preferable. What to do? I'd be very appreciative of any and all advice. < My Dunlap motor wobbled and had cloth-covered wires so had to go. I went with a 3-phase 1/2HP motor and a VFD. 3-phase motors are cheap on ebay as people replace them with single-phase. Consequently, single-phase motors fetch a high price on ebay. I also picked up a Toshiba VFD to drive it. Now runs much smoother and I get variable sepped with less need to change belts. My total cost was under $100. Even new, you can get a motor and VFD for about $200. Others have recommended automationdirect.com for a GS1 VFD drive. Surpluscenter.com is good for motors. They have 3-phase and single phase options. Scott G. Henion Consultant Stone Mountain, GA SHDesigns http://www.shdesigns.org ------- Re: dead motor Posted by: "jo barden" jobarden422x~xxmsn.com Date: Mon Nov 23, 2009 10:01 am ((PST)) Hi Vince: as well as owning an Atlas I have a Drummond M type lathe; I recently fitted a 3 phase motor and Variable frequency inverter. I have got to say it is a very worthwhile thing to do; changing the belt ratio's is reduced, power is smoother and in backgear lowest speed threading is easy. I don't know the costs over your side of the "Pond" but inverter cost £90 and motor £30, money well spent as far as I am concerned. Wiring the inverter was easy with just the supply in and 3 phase going out; you can if you want connect a potentiometer so that you can have a speed control via a remote but it is not essential. One point I would make is that my radio is next to my lathe and listening to the Ashes (Cricket) on longwave I did get interference. hope this helps Jon ------- Converting a 12" A/C to an 'under cabinet' configuration [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: "Tony" ahzx~xxinsightbb.com Date: Wed May 26, 2010 6:32 am ((PDT)) I have a 1937-ish 12" A/C. The configuration is the one where the countershaft is off the back of the lathe, and the motor hangs from the countershaft's support brackets. I'm designing a new bench for this lathe. I'm a little annoyed that the lathe consumes almost 30" of horizontal space. If I build a reasonably wide lathe bench there will be a 12" gap between the bench and the wall. In either case the wall behind the lathe will be hard to reach. I'd like to move the motor and perhaps the countershaft so they are under the lathe, reducing the horizontal footprint. Has anyone done such a thing? ------- Re: Converting a 12" A/C to an 'under cabinet' configuration Posted by: "Dan Buchanan" db45acpx~xxyahoo.com Date: Wed May 26, 2010 7:28 am ((PDT)) I purchased one of these benches through Sam's Club for $199. with the intention of doing the same thing with a 12x36 I was considering to buy. http://www.sevilleclassics.com/products.php?pid=95 I ended up getting a cabinet model lathe instead, but it is one heck of a sturdy bench. Very well made, solid when assembled and in my humble opinion, perfectly suited for a benchtop lathe. I'm extremely impressed with it, and the value it is for that price. db ------- Payback- DC Motor Control on the cheap! [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: "profcpw" profwalshx~xxhotmail.com Date: Fri Jul 2, 2010 11:16 am ((PDT)) I just joined this group today, your groups document files were priceless, thank you. So, I feel in return for your informative site I decided to share some of my secrets. Here is something I plan on using on my 109 lathe. I've used it on other projects. PWM is the abbreviation for pulse width modulation, in other words it just changes the pulse width to a dc motor. This in turn varies the speed of the motor. Now most PWM systems are a bit spendy. So, here is what can be done. Most home shops have a bad (battery failure) cordless drill laying around (I pick mine up at garage sales). I remove the guts of the drill and connect an old electric scooter motor to the leads that once powered the drill motor; the motor will have two leads on it, avoid the brushless motors (at least six leads). Depending on the drill you have (try to get a newer one) they have a device called a MOSFET it has three legs on it and is mounted to a hefty aluminum heat sink. This device senses the trigger switch; a little squeeze and you get low rpm, a harder squeeze and higher rpm. Now the trick to control your lathe speed effectively (set and forget) is to build a small cam on a shaft with a knob, set it up so the cam lobe at minimum speed is small and will just begin to push the trigger switch in slightly; adjust your cam for full speed. When you build the drill guts into a control box set it up so you can lock the cam from moving. Mount the scooter motor (I used a 330 W motor from an old electric ride on scooter) where your old AC motor was; this may take some wrangling. You will have to mount your old motor's drive pulley to the new motor. Experiment with the speeds and loads, have fun, cost is minimal. As a power supply you could use an old battery but it will run out too quickly. A nice cheap supply 12 volt power supply can be had from an old PC computer's power supply. However your drill will have to be the 12 volt type (older); most newer models (Harbor Freight $18.00, 18 volt) are 14.4- 24 volts; remember to match up voltages. Oh, I should mention if you want to reverse your lathe's movement direction, simply push the cordless drill's direction switch; so make a slot and holder for this switch in your control box. ------- Re: Payback- DC Motor Control on the cheap! Posted by: "Mike Nicewonger" twmasterx~xxtwmaster.com Date: Fri Jul 2, 2010 11:24 am ((PDT)) Interesting. What are you using as a power source? How many volts? What is the current rating on this speed control? How many RPM on the motor at these voltages and current? This sounds like it may be viable for a small lathe like the 109. Mike N ------- Re: Advice for new owner of Craftsman/Atlas Lathe [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: "Chuck Rice" Chuckx~xxWildRice.com Date: Wed Oct 13, 2010 10:57 am ((PDT)) On Oct 13, 2010, schmidtypop wrote: > I have a Craftsman 101.07403 lathe that I got in trade for some work that I did. I had been wanting a lathe and this was a great opportunity. So far I have gathered that it is missing the counter-shaft and motor otherwise it is mostly complete and in good shape. I plan to use it for light machining where high precision is not necessary but would like to get it as smooth and precise as possible. It seems like some people like to do some simple modifications to get the lathe to run smooth and get better cuts. I was wondering what suggestions people might have or tips to get the lathe back in running shape. I will post some pictures of it when I get a chance but don't hold your breath since I am in China and won't be back in the states for a couple of months (where the lathe currently is). Thanks, Josh < I have the same model (101.07403) with the same missing countershaft. You can find the countershafts sometimes on eBay, but instead, I went with the 1/2 HP three-phase motor with a VFD combo. "I recently had the same problem and with some info from this list, I found a 'Baldor electric motor 3 phase 220 volt 1/2 hp' on eBay for $69.84 (with shipping) and a 'AF-300 Mini TM Adjustable Frequency Drive D7203 (catalog number) 6KXC111F50X9A1(model number)' from http://dealerselectric.com/ for $100 (including shipping). " I am still a novice at this, but it seems like a pretty good combination to me. Chuck Rice Near Houston, Tx Chuckx~xxWildRice.com ------- VFD [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: "Warren D." warrengrantx~xxyahoo.com Date: Sat Dec 25, 2010 8:12 am ((PST)) I now have a VFD and have a 1HP 3PH motor on the way. I'm thinking of running direct to the headstock since I will be able to adj the speed with the VFD. I can't see any reason to use the other belt pulleys. I need to replace the belts to the headstock anyway so I'm going to get a twist lock belt from McMaster Carr to accomplish this. I would appreciate any comments from anyone as to this being a good idea or a bad one. Thanks Warren ------- Re: VFD Posted by: "Rick" rgsparberx~xxaol.com Date: Sat Dec 25, 2010 8:25 am ((PST)) Ck ebay for the belt. Got mine for half the price. Rick (via iPod) ------- Re: VFD Posted by: "Art Eckstein" art.ecksteinx~xxwirelesshometown.com Date: Sat Dec 25, 2010 8:36 am ((PST)) Depending on the speed range you want to use, this could be a good or bad idea. As you get into the lower rpm ranges, the motor will not have enough power to do some things. I have a 2HP motor on my mill/drill and when I first put the motor on and tried turning the system down to about 10HZ, it quickly faulted out with as I remember a temperature issue. Also, I could put my hand on the spindle and stop it with no problem. You might be able to get away with it as long as you keep the back gear system as this will give an additional 6:1 reduction. A sensorless vector drive will also help at the lower rpms. Good luck. Art ------- Re: VFD Posted by: "Russ Kepler" russx~xxkepler-eng.com Date: Sat Dec 25, 2010 8:55 am ((PST)) Not a particularly good one. The VFD will drive the motor in something close to a flat torque curve whereas belting down a motor simply decreases the speed and proportionally increases the torwue. If you have a job that needs more torque at a low speed, you'll want to use belts and then "fine tune" speed with the VFD. But for most of the work you can leave the belting at a mid-range position and work with just VFD control for speed. ------- Re: VFD Posted by: "Lawrence Sciortino" las1940x~xxcomcast.net Date: Sun Dec 26, 2010 11:46 am ((PST)) Hi Warren, I'm with the others who've advised against bypassing your lathe's countershaft pulleys. With your VFD, you'll probably find, as I did, that with the variability of speed through use of the VFD you will not need to move the final drive belt very often, but for very low or very high spindle speeds, you'll be glad to move the belt. Even with advanced circuitry of some VFDs, like sensorless vector, you will lose needed torque at very low speeds. Another point about VFDs that's not often made, but can be disappointing to the unaware: If you are running a motor with an insulation rating of less than F, there is a risk of damage to the motor's insulation from excessive heat. Slow speed operation is the culprit, and motor manu- facturers offer "inverter rated" or similar nomenclature motors that are designed internally for VFD operation. The insulation rating of these motors is most often F or G, and they are slightly higher in cost, but essential for long term reliability with VFDs, especially if you operate much at slow speeds. Most common 3 phase moors of less than 5 HP have B rated insulation - not designed for other than their normal operating RPM. Of course many are using VFDs with B rated motors, but unless they are well ventilated and don't do much slow RPM work, the winding insulation is likely to fail prematurely. This info was gained after I damaged a new Leeson motor and was informed by a dealer/repair shop here in Seattle. Since then, I've found the same information reading on-line about VFD operation and motor insulation. Larry ------- Re: VFD Posted by: "c_h_a_r_t_n_y" mgibsonx~xxstny.rr.com Date: Sun Dec 26, 2010 7:20 pm ((PST)) Re to Warren: Using a var speed with constant torque is like this. I have been using a DC 1/4th HP on a 6-18 for 40 years with no problems. It was a used motor back in 1970. I find it convenient, expecially for threading as I can speed up to get to the cut, then slow down to threading speed. I do not use a threading dial. Just back out, reverse and high speed back to the starting point. Also I start and stop with the speed control. However, I would only do real work at half to full speed. Here is my thought: .25 hp at full speed, .125HP at half, .062HP at quarter speed, etc. So for me, having a really big var speed and not belting it down or gearing it down is like putting a really big engine in a car so you do not have to shift gears. Happy turning. chart ------- Treadmill DC motor. [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: "Scott Henion" shenionx~xxshdesigns.org Date: Fri Dec 31, 2010 11:40 am ((PST)) Neighbor threw out her treadmill. Decided to grab it and see if i could use the motor out of it. Turns out it is real simple: http://shdesigns.org/Welding/Projects/DCMotor-1.jpg http://shdesigns.org/Welding/Projects/DCMotor-2.jpg Yes, a bunch of wires but basically 2 for AC in, 3 to the speed setting pot and rest to motor. Tried it out and it works great (the walking belt was worn out.) Motor is 6500RPM and 2 1/4 HP. A bit fast but plenty of HP when run slow. If I did not have a VFD on the lathe, it would definitely go there. It will be installed on my cheap drill press that was always lacking power and never could go slow enough. I'll just have to turn an adapter for the drill pulley and make a mount. It is thinner but longer. I was expecting maybe a 1/3HP so was a surprise. Keep an eye on Craigs List. I have seen several free but never nearby. Scott G. Henion Craftsman 12x36 lathe: http://shdesigns.org/Craftsman12x36 ------- Re: Treadmill DC motor. Posted by: "Mike Nicewonger" twmasterx~xxtwmaster.com Date: Fri Dec 31, 2010 1:37 pm ((PST)) Yup. You have the (in)famous MC-60 controller there. Super simple to use. Just be careful. The MC-60 does not like more than 6A of current to be drawn. Size your drive accordingly. I have a bunch of that stuff here in my cave. While I am sure that motor cannot sustain 2.25 HP it's not a pile of junk either. The big drawback to that motor is the high RPM. Of course that can be dealt with via pulley size. Did you salvage the 5K pot from the console or was it one with a digital control? Mike N ------- Re: Treadmill DC motor. Posted by: "Starlight Tool Services Ltd" starlight_toolsx~xxtelus.net Date: Fri Dec 31, 2010 12:02 pm ((PST)) Scott: You might want to make sure you hang onto the flywheel. It has a built in cooling fan which those motors need, it also smoothes out any pulsing efffects and you can either use the Poly V belt or adapt to a different drive system if needed. Oh and 2-1/4 HP is for the dreamer. That is the maximum peak HP it can produce as it self distructs. LOL Walter ------- Re: Treadmill DC motor. Posted by: "Mike Nicewonger" twmasterx~xxtwmaster.com Date: Fri Dec 31, 2010 1:42 pm ((PST)) On Fri, 2010-12-31 Starlight Tool Services Ltd wrote: > You might want to make sure you hang onto the flywheel. Also be aware that since the flywheel just screws onto the motor shaft it can unscrew itself if run backwards. For the life of me I cannot fathom why they used a mix of US and metric on the shaft. The outside diameter of the shaft is 17MM but the threads are 1/2"-13 Left hand.... Mike N ------- Re: Treadmill DC motor. Posted by: "Scott Henion" shenionx~xxshdesigns.org Date: Fri Dec 31, 2010 12:12 pm ((PST)) On 12/31/2010, Rick Sparber wrote: > Did you really mean to write "2 1/4 HP"? That is a huge motor for a > treadmill. The one I put on my Gingery drill press is about 1/4 HP > and works very well. Congratulations on your find! > If the motor is that big, I would certainly put it on my > mill/drill feeding it through the belts to slow it down a lot. look at the second picture; says 2 1/4HP x~xx 130V It has a 15A fuse, that is about 2HP for a DC motor. Not some cheap Chinese motor either "United Technologies Automotive", made in Mexico heck, its a treadmill. It will need a big motor when some 300lb beast uses it ;) Scott G. Henion ------- Re: Treadmill DC motor. Posted by: "Paul DeLisle" ferretpdx~xxgmail.com Date: Fri Dec 31, 2010 12:25 pm ((PST)) Hey, Rick: The HP rating on DC Motors doesn't equate to AC ones. 2.25-3.0 DC HP is about standard for this kind of conversion. ------- Re: Treadmill DC motor. Posted by: "Mike Nicewonger" twmasterx~xxtwmaster.com Date: Fri Dec 31, 2010 1:32 pm ((PST)) On Fri, 2010-12-31, Glenn N wrote: > You may want to do a couple mods on that board. Most have to be set to zero on the speed pot and the turned up to start. I have modified a few to change ramp times and make em start anyplace you leave the pot. < And that is just plain dangerous. Having to turn the pot to zero before starting the motor is a good idea. I would not want to inadvertently bump a power switch and find myself getting hurt or damaging a machine, tool or expensive hunk of metal for a tiny bit of convenience. Keep it SAFE! Mike N ------- Re: Treadmill DC motor. Posted by: "Mike Nicewonger" twmasterx~xxtwmaster.com Date: Fri Dec 31, 2010 1:37 pm ((PST)) Yup. You have the (in)famous MC-60 controller there. Super simple to use. Just be careful. The MC-60 does not like more than 6A of current to be drawn. Size your drive accordingly. I have a bunch of that stuff here in my cave. While I am sure that motor cannot sustain 2.25 HP it's not a pile of junk either. The big drawback to that motor is the high RPM. Of course that can be dealt with via pulley size. Did you salvage the 5K pot from the console or was it one with a digital control? Mike N ------- Re: Treadmill DC motor. Posted by: "Starlight Tool Services Ltd" starlight_toolsx~xxtelus.net Date: Fri Dec 31, 2010 5:32 pm ((PST)) Glenn / Mike I was talking more tongue in cheek regarding the HP ratings on these motors. They are generally rated at the peak HP that they can develop based on voltage, RPM and max current draw with very little headroom for safety. I have seen many tools that a few years ago were rated as 12 A motors in order to fall under the ULC, CSA ratings. Those same tools all of a sudden came stamped as 15 A motors. The part numbers for the armature and field never changed! So how can the motor now be rated at a higher HP / current rating. The idle current for the tools remained the same at about 6 Amps and did not increase to 7.5 A as should be expected. When these tools are rated, they are loaded down and the current is read when the tool is under its max rated load. These tools' load characteristics did not change either, the contractor still bears down on the tool the same way he did before. A lot comes from a change in the wording in some form of loop hole of the CSA / ULC whereas before a 15A 110V branch circuit was not allowed to have anything more than a 12 A inductive load so if the tool was rated at 15 A it had to be run on a 20 a branch circuit, the wording changed and now they can have up to a 15 A inductive load on the same circuit. So the manufacture loads up the motor a little harder on the dynamo and low and behold they can now say that it is 15 A instead of 12A. Only difference is that the motor is just that much closer to its point of destruction. Marketing ploy mostly. Most of these motors that I see are still mounted in treadmills when they come in for repair, or I have to go out on a service call. There are DC motors that are used in treadmills that are decent quality motors. Look at the more expensive Nordic Track and Free Spirit treadmills for instance, then there are these cheaper motors that are in the lower priced machines Welso, Icon etc. Yes they work and often work well, but they are truely not that high of rating HP wise. Now when you get into the really industrial grade treadmills seen in the larger gyms and hospitals for stress testing etc, they are 3 Phase motors with VFD drives. If you ever find one of these laying by the curb, grab them as the motors are actually well made, even though they are a very open design and chips and debris can raise havoc on them. As for Mike's inquiry of the 17 MM shaft and imperial threads, just about all the bearings available are metric. Those units use a 6203 bearing, 17 mm x 40 mm and they do not the shafts up to the threads. Yes there are a few bearings that have imperial dimensions, but not a lot, and that does not matter which country in the world you are in. So if you take just about any motor you have and measure the bearing journal, it will be a metric figure. the rest of the shaft is probably stepped down to an imperial dimension, IE 17 mm bearing and 5/8 shaft to fit a pulley etc. Walter ------- Re: Treadmill DC motor. Posted by: "Mike Nicewonger" twmasterx~xxtwmaster.com Date: Fri Dec 31, 2010 6:13 pm ((PST)) Walter, that is the most reasonable explanation for the Metric/Imperial mix on these motors. I had not considered the source of the bearings. I've had good luck with the motors found in the Weslo/Icon/Proform etc. treadmills. Even if they are optimistic with their ratings. Those smaller motors are overkill on small machines like a Taig mill etc. I'm always on the lookout for other good treadmills to plunder parts from. Earlier this week I bought ($10) a Precor treadmill with a real 1HP 90V Pacific Scientific motor. I also have a 1HP 90V Leeson out of a Marathon treadmill. Good stuff ------- Re: Treadmill DC motor. Posted by: "Starlight Tool Services Ltd" starlight_toolsx~xxtelus.net Date: Fri Dec 31, 2010 6:57 pm ((PST)) Mike: I get a fair number of treadmills that are being scrapped out as I am the service centre for them and if the unit is too expensive to repair it is often abandoned on my door step. The MC60 Controllers are very common repair parts, they just don't hold up well. The other problem I have had is that the permanent magnets in those motors tend to lose their strength and then the motors do not have enough umgh to power a 300 lb person trying to jog on the treadmill. These motors still run and can be relegated to lesser tasks. Yup those motors you picked up the 1 HP PS and the 1 HP Leeson I am sure were much more skookum motors than the Weslo/Icon/Proforms we are currrently talking about and those are rated more as real HP than developed just before it dies HP. LOL Walter ------- Re: Treadmill DC motor. Posted by: "CaptonZapx~xxaol.com" Date: Fri Dec 31, 2010 7:57 pm ((PST)) shenionx~xxshdesigns.org writes: > It will be installed on my cheap drill press If you still have the flywheel, I would suggest that you retain it. It has a fan built in that induces airflow through the motor. If the flywheel pulley is a multi groove, like auto serpentine belts, Graingers has them in small sizes, and a pulley from a car can be rigged as the driven part of the idler. You don't give specifics on your drill press, but if it is one that has two belts in the drive, it would be a good idea to make a reduction drive from the motor to the idler pulley. That would allow the motor to run at a higher speed, making the fan more efficient. The flywheel also smoothes out the impulses from the two pole motor. CZ ------- Re: Treadmill DC motor. Posted by: "Scott Henion" shenionx~xxshdesigns.org Date: Fri Dec 31, 2010 8:11 pm ((PST)) The flywheel is huge, I'd rather do without it. I may take a fan off a muffin fan, I have a few with steel fans that are the same side as the motor. Yes, it is a cheap Horror Freight 2-pulley drill press. One of those $0.99 ebay deals, still overpriced ;) I may look at a countershaft. I have both pulleys and the belt., or I could make one. Then mount the motor off the side. Will probably be the best solution. I can mount the motor in the original position easily. Will need to make an extension for the shaft and adapt it to 12mm. ------- Re: Treadmill DC motor. Posted by: "CaptonZapx~xxaol.com" Date: Fri Dec 31, 2010 8:38 pm ((PST)) Yeah, the flywheel is big, and since your chuck will probably not take anything over three/eighths, you might not need it. However, the fan from a muffin fan will not be able to pull much air THROUGH the motor. If you look at the flywheel, you'll notice that the fan blades are a centrifugal type, and situated so that they suck air through the motor windings and expel it away from the motor. Blowing air over the motor does not do much for heat buildup in the windings. I found a small squirrel blade fan wheel that I am going to put on one of mine, but it will take some lathe work to make an adapter that spaces everything correctly. Good luck with your adaptation, and let us know how it turns out. CZ ------- Re: Treadmill DC motor. Posted by: "Scott Henion" shenionx~xxshdesigns.org Date: Sun Jan 16, 2011 7:24 pm ((PST)) Ok, basically all done: http://shdesigns.org/Craftsman-12x36/treadmill.shtml Works well, lots of torque compared to the toy motor it had. I can now drill steel _slow_ and not melt drill bits. Only issue is you need to turn the speed to 0 then ramp it up or it won't start. Controls put in an old ammo box. Made a fan out of some sheet. The old motor was turned into a bench grinder. It replaces an old dryer motor that was an open frame one and always was sucking in chips. It would make a great setup for a lathe. Scott G. Henion Craftsman 12x36 lathe: http://shdesigns.org/Craftsman12x36 ------- Re: Treadmill DC motor. Posted by: "Glenn N" sleykinx~xxcharter.net Date: Sun Jan 16, 2011 10:32 pm ((PST)) I believe I know how to modify your board to make it behave better for a drill press. I worked one over for Ray a few months ago and collected a bit of info. I will upload some schematics and tech info to the treadmill motor folder under the MC60 folder. This is what I did for Ray. I got it fixed now I believe. It will start no matter where the pot is and will run at very low power. It does have a small standoff voltage that makes it not put out anything until it is enough to start the motor. When I first tested the pot had to be turned up about half way to start and now it starts with very little movement on the pot. I remove Q7, C7 to make it start at a slower speed and lifted the end of RPS3 to make it start no matter where the pot is. So you can set a speed and turn it on and off at that speed. HTH Glenn ------- Re: Treadmill DC motor. Posted by: "Rick Sparber" rgsparberx~xxaol.com Date: Mon Jan 17, 2011 4:48 am ((PST)) It just occurred to me that one of these treadmill DC motors modified with a reversal switch and a speed reducer would make a nice X axis table feed for a mill. Hmmm. Rick ------- Re: More 3 Phase & VFD Questions [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: "Scott Henion" shenionx~xxshdesigns.org Date: Thu Apr 7, 2011 5:16 pm ((PDT)) On 4/7/2011 7:49 PM, db45acp wrote: > But I'm exhausted searching the web and reading past group posts > regarding VFD's and 3 Phase motors, and still unclear on what to do. > Is there a SIMPLE start point in looking for the motor/ VFD combo? > For instance, should I look for a 1HP motor and a VFD for a 1HP motor? > Rather than a range of motors with a range of drives. Not really, Usually best to get a VFD and a motor rated for the same size. The VFD will usually be a bit higher. Mine is 1/2HP and more than enough. Not much torque at real low speeds. A bigger motor/VFD would help but if I need more torque there is always the back gear. A VFD-rated motor would help. > Or, can anyone who has actually done this conversion, suggest their > own combination? > Or a step by step guide/article on the subject anyone has seen? > I have seen a few posts about the subject, but still unclear. > Scott Henion's setup looks good but I don't think I can take on > the electronic details of it. It is not complicated. Most VFD's have power in, the 3-motor leads and some control lines. The control lines are usually Forward, Reverse and a common. A simple switch will work. Mine was more complicated as I had momentary pushbuttons. So, I had to use a relay. I made it even more complicated by powering the RUN and STOP button lights. A simple run/stop switch and a fwd/rev switch is easy. The fwd/rev switch connects to the Forward and Reverse lines; the common of that goes to the RUN switch that connects it to common. It is all documented in the VFD manuals. Most show default wiring configurations. > Or is there a "package" anyone has seen that is available to > "bolt on" with simplest of wiring connections? Probably for a ridiculous price ;) Too many motors sizes, mounts and shaft sizes. > Another question. > Are the controls for the lathe then located on the drive box? > Do you need to start/stop the motor with the speed control in > a specific/ minimal speed setting? You can put the controls wherever you want. They will be low-voltage. I used a network patch cord to wire mine. I have the RUN/STOP and reverse switch under the lathe but I put the speed pot on the headstock were the original On/Off switch was. On mine, I can be running full bore forward. Then, flip the forward/reverse switch. The lathe will spin down, braking will bring it to a stp and then it will ramp up in reverse. VFD's basically won't let you do anything stupid. Automation Direct has been recommended before: http://www.automationdirect.com/adc/Overview/Catalog/Drives Look at teh GS1 drives. There is a manual here: http://www.automationdirect.com/static/specs/gs1drives.pdf I got my VFD off ebay. I watched for a while. I searched for manuals before bidding and was suer it was the right one and had good diagrams of connections. Scott G. Henion Craftsman 12x36 lathe: http://shdesigns.org/Craftsman12x36 ------- Re: More 3 Phase & VFD Questions Posted by: "PaulV" paulsvx~xxaol.com Date: Fri Apr 8, 2011 7:19 am ((PDT)) I've never done the conversion, but I am working on one now, and have done a lot of research. I would start by choosing the motor. You need a three phase 220 volt motor (you can get motors and vfd's with higher voltages, but you'll have more choices at 220 volts). You want a motor that has the HP you want, and that can be mounted easily -- hopefully one with the same frame as the motor you are replacing, so it just bolts on, the same sized shaft as the motor you are replacing, so you can use the same pulleys, and the same rpm (unless you are looking to run the lathe at higher rpms, which might also involve changing pulleys, etc.). Make sure it is a "continuous duty" motor, and that it is a reversible motor (not just "clockwise" or "counter clockwise"). Check the nameplate on the motor you have now -- it will tell you the motor rpm and rotation direction, and may give you the frame size. Or just measure up your motor mounts, and do a search on Google for NEMA motor frame sizes and compare what you have to the charts you will find. Once you have the motor, you need to find an appropriate VFD to run it. The first question is what is the input voltage? Do you want to run off of a 110 circuit, or do you have a 220 outlet you can use? There are inverters that run off of either voltage, but if you are going to run anything bigger than 1/2 HP off of 110, it had best be a 20 amp circuit, because the typical 1 HP VFD draws more than 15 amps. When you look at VFD's there are three types: V/F Drive, Sensorless Vector drive and Closed Loop Vector drives. The closed loop vector drives are rare and more expensive, and require an encoder to be mounted to the motor, so let's forget that. A sensorless vector drive will give you better power at low rpm's than a V/F drive, and they are available at reasonable prices, so I'd go with that. Choose a VFD that is rated for the HP of your motor, or a little higher. I'm using a 3/4 HP motor with a 1 HP VFD. Where it gets a little complicated is that the VFD's have a lot of programming and wiring options. The motor has to be wired to the VFD -- it's pretty simple, and it's covered in the manual, but if you have never wired a 220v motor, you could check with an electrician, or anyone with industrial maintenance experience. You typically have to program in the specs from the nameplate of the motor into the VFD: its voltage, its amperage, its maximum rpm and so on. (There are some VFD's that claim to be "plug and play" but I haven't looked into them). At the simple end, you can program it to work off of the VFD's faceplate controls, in which case you would use the VFD faceplate buttons to start, stop, reverse and set the rpm that you want to run at. (This is usually the default setting that the VFD comes from the factory with.) Alternatively, you can program it to run on external analog controls, including the switches that you now use to start and reverse the motor. The VFD's typically have terminals on which you can wire a potentiometer to adjust speed of the motor. These are typically 10v circuits, and just require that you hook up the three wires from the pot, and program the VFD to be take the frequency control from the pot terminals rather than the buttons on the VFD faceplate. Similarly, there is usually a 24v circuit for controlling forward, reverse and stop. You program the VFD to take these commands from the external controls, and usually have to program the VFD to tell it what switches are hooked up to what terminals. The VFD manuals explain how to do the programming, and have wiring diagrams for hooking up the switches. (On most VFD's you can also buy an optional connector for digital control from a computer, but unless you are doing a CNC conversion, you don't have to mess with that.) Because there are so many programming and wiring options, the manuals can be a little confusing, but if you study through them a few times, they begin to make sense. The conversion I am doing (for a small mill) is a very low budget option: A 3/4 HP 220 volt motor from Surplus Center for $30, and a 110 volt 1 HP Teco EV sensorless Vector Drive from Wolf Automation for $140. The nice thing about Wolf Automation is that they have a lot of the manuals available on-line, so you can study them before you buy. My motor and VFD can be found here: http://www.surpluscenter.com/item.asp?item=10-2510&catname=electric http://www.wolfautomation.com/Product.aspx?ProductID=28926 I was constrained in my choice of motors by the motor frame size I needed. It had to fit on the head of my mill, which required a small motor frame size. Surplus Center has other inexpensive motors that might be better for a lathe, or if you want to go with higher quality, you can get a Baldor motor from any industrial supply house. In that case, you may want to spring for an "inverter duty" motor, which is specifically designed to run off of a VFD. I chose the Teco EV because it was an inexpensive Sensorless Vector VFD that runs off of a 110 v circuit, and has everything I need. The Teco manuals are probably a little less clear than some others, such as the Hitachi drives, which are quite popular. ------- Re: Replacement motor [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: "ivan" hulagun66x~xxyahoo.com Date: Sun May 1, 2011 8:28 am ((PDT)) "Cecil D" wrote: > Just got a treadmill motor that I would like to mount on my 618. What is the best way to do this. As I am new to metal working I can use all the suggestion I can get. Thanks in advance. Cecil < Cecil, I'm also new to lathe work. A friend donated a complete treadmill motor and controller setup for me to try on my 618. The treadmill parts were all kind of ugly but spun up nicely. The only missing part needed was a tensioning device and a blank drive pulley from McMaster Carr. But when I asked a machinist friend to bore it to fit the treadmill motor shaft precisely, he wanted to come see my setup. Looking it over he said I'd be crazy to change my setup to use the treadmill motor. He believed that the old 1/4 HP motor and pulley spindle set up was far more robust and had all the speeds I would ever need. I kind of liked the looks of the older setup, and the purity of keeping it more original, so the treadmill motor etc languishes in a box until I can return it to my friend. Just passing that POV along. Good luck... Ivan ------- Re: Replacement motor Posted by: "Glenn N" sleykinx~xxcharter.net Date: Sun May 1, 2011 8:52 am ((PDT)) To follow up on that thought... When I got my 6" lathe years ago one of the first things I did was strip out the backgears :( So, unable to find a set reasonably at the time I changed out the motor for the treadmill motor. I really liked it on the 6" but still had to change belts every now and then. I did modify the control extensively to eliminate the zero start issue and the really slow ramp times. I also put a treadmill motor on my drill press and that is still running strong in my son's shop. I sold the 6" and now have a 12" I have had for close to 10 years now. I have had a treadmill motor and modified control sitting on the shelf the whole time and it is yet to be installed. Maybe when the current motor lets the smoke out it will be worth hanging the treadmill motor on there :) But for now it isn't worth the effort to hang it on there and find a place to put the controls. You can either take the capitalist view, "If it ain't broke don't fix it", or the Government view, "If it ain't broke fix it till it is". Your choice ;) Glenn Oh..if ya need help figuring out the controls holler .. ------- Re Powering the Atlas 618 [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: "thesyndicate88" robertwmorrisx~xxmac.com Date: Tue Feb 14, 2012 12:07 pm ((PST)) Hey Guys, First off many thanks for the Drum Switch conversation. I have recently purchased a new Drum switch for my 618 and it's the last thing I need to complete before the lathe is back up and running. It's still mildly confusing to me but I'll figure it out I'm sure once I really think about it. However... Let's talk about switching over to a 3Phase motor and a Freq Drive. I have found thru some quick searching this AM: 1. Baldor 1/2HP 3 phase motor for about $125.00 with a mount on the bottom and a 5/8" keyed shaft. 2. A Hitachi 1 phase input 3 phase output A/C drive, L100-004MFU for about $189.00 The Freq drive is reversible via a toggle switch connection and the unit has a POT right on the front next to the start stop buttons. Am I crazy or are these conversions really this simple? The Drive is rated for 1/2 HP and I can't see any other piece to the puzzle. As far as cost, I'm into my lathe for about $40.00 and 2 cans of spray paint after selling the milling attachment. So I'm not real worried about blowing another $300 on the drive. I'm thinking this will make the machine super sweet! Plus I'll sell the new drum switch and original motor to help offset the cost a little. Let me know your thoughts? Robert M. ------- Re: Re Powering the Atlas 618 Posted by: "Scott Henion" shenionx~xxshdesigns.org Date: Tue Feb 14, 2012 12:24 pm ((PST)) I did the VFD on my 12x36 http://shdesigns.org/Craftsman-12x36/vfd.shtml Cost me $100 (ebay deals.) Yes, it is simple. I made up a panel with lighted buttons for start/stop and a reversing switch. The drives also allow a remote speed pot. I mounted one where the on/off switch went in the headstock. As the switching is low voltage and current, any switches will do. You could wire the drum switch if you wanted with only 3 wires. My lathe has the VFD and 3P motor. I have a drill press with a treadmill motor that also runs well (2HP variable speed vs the 1/3HP fixed.) Both run much smoother. Scott G. Henion Craftsman 12x36 lathe: http://shdesigns.org/Craftsman12x36 ------- Re: Re Powering the Atlas 618 Posted by: "jo barden" jobarden422x~xxmsn.com Date: Tue Feb 14, 2012 1:03 pm ((PST)) I have put similar on my Drummond M type and have found it well worthwhile. However be aware that a "normal" fixed frequency motor is different to one designed to be run on variable frequency drive; also the cooling at low speed can be insufficient. Saying all this I use a normal 3 phase motor 1hp rating don't go beyond 50-150% speed, still use back gear and am very very pleased. They are soft start so less mechanical shock and if required can be easily reversed. I would over rate the motor and inverter though and yes it will reduce efficiency a little but it is a hobby. This will give the motor a bit of a thermal heat sink for when you are running below rated speed so the cooling is reduced. Have fun making chips Jon ------- Re: Re Powering the Atlas 618 Posted by: "Robert Morris" robertwmorrisx~xxmac.com Date: Tue Feb 14, 2012 1:07 pm ((PST)) Great Jon, So do I look for a 3450 RPM motor or stick with the common 1725RPM? I agree with you in running the back gear as well vs. having the motor work for every speed range. Robert ------- Re: Re Powering the Atlas 618 Posted by: "jo barden" jobarden422x~xxmsn.com Date: Tue Feb 14, 2012 1:22 pm ((PST)) Hi Robert Assuming your Atlas is the same as mine (dodgy I know but hey) I would go for the 2 pole machine so that will be the 3450rpm in your case, I printed out and laminated the various functions on my inverter. They are quite small by the way and in my case I have found that I get some interference on my workshop radio on longwave which is a pain when listening to test match special on radio 4 but I digress (Sad Englishman who likes cricket I am afraid). I would say that the lathe in my case is smoother now than before. Jon ------- Re: Re Powering the Atlas 618 Posted by: "Scott Henion" shenionx~xxshdesigns.org Date: Tue Feb 14, 2012 1:24 pm ((PST)) On 2/14/2012 3:58 PM, Robert Morris wrote: > I'm assuming sticking with a 1/2HP motor on the 6" lathe is OK? > No need to go higher? I have a 1/2HP on my 12x36 and have no problems with it. A bigger motor and VFD will have better low-speed torque. > So do I look for a 3450 RPM motor or stick with the common 1725RPM? Stick with 1750. Mine is 1150 and have no complaints. I can run it up near 1700 but get better low-speed torque. With a VFD, you will get less torque at lower speeds. When I slow the frequency down to 10Hz, it will often not start up. Expect about a 2:1 speed range, or 40-80Hz on a standard motor. I run mine at 30 to 90. At 90Hz, It will trip the current limit when worked hard (max speed on pulleys, taking off big cut.) Otherwise no problem. BTW, using a standard motor and VFD on a GFCI will trip the outlet. Mine trips instantly as soon as you hit run. Non-inverter motors will have too high capacitive coupling to the armature from the windings. You can get filters to help, I just use a regular outlet. Scott G. Henion Craftsman 12x36 lathe: http://shdesigns.org/Craftsman12x36 ------- Re: Re Powering the Atlas 618 Posted by: "Scott Henion" shenionx~xxshdesigns.org Date: Wed Feb 15, 2012 9:22 am ((PST)) On 2/15/2012 12:11 PM, wa5cabx~xxcs.com wrote: > I agree with John on both points. If you want to put a variable speed motor on your lathe, have at it. But as a practical matter, it isn't going to improve (or degrade) the performance of the machine. However, if you put a much larger motor on it than it was designed for, it's like putting a blown V-8 in front of a drive train designed for a 4-cylinder. Sooner or later, you're going to break something. < It was a definite improvement on my 12x36. Less vibration and consistent speeds along with a faster spin down time. You can also set the current limit to limit the toque if needed so you won't break anything. With a VFD you don't need to change belt settings as often. I use at most 2-3 belt settings and don't have a 2-speed main pulley. As my long boring bars tent to "sing", I find I can vary the speed to find a speed they don't resonate. As you slown down a regular motor on a VFD, you lose torque. A larger motor on a VFD will allow you to slow it down and still have the same torque. Scott G. Henion Craftsman 12x36 lathe: http://shdesigns.org/Craftsman12x36 ------- NOTE TO FILE: In a later conversation on atlas_craftsman Scott gave more details on his motor and VFD setup. See next couple of messages. ------- Re: Craftsman 12" Lathe Motor Size [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: "blah" moodyj2000x~xxyahoo.com Date: Mon Aug 20, 2012 11:28 am ((PDT)) On 8/20/2012, blah wrote: >> The original motor that came with my lathe is in working but poor condition. Heavily rusted and filled with spider webs from being left outside. I was wanting to replace the motor for my restoration. I passed up on a good looking craftsman 1/2 hp motor on ebay yesterday because I wanted to think it over first. Is the original 1/2 hp sufficient for a 54" bed, 12" Craftsman lathe or could it stand to be a 3/4 HP or larger? << On Aug 20, 2012 Scott Henion wrote: > Most 10-12" A/C lathes came with 1/3HP motors. > Mine has a 1/2HP with a VFD and has more power than I need. What brand for the motor and VFD? Jason ------- Re: Craftsman 12" Lathe Motor Size Posted by: "Scott Henion" shenionx~xxshdesigns.org Date: Mon Aug 20, 2012 11:52 am ((PDT)) It is a Reliance Electric, 1150 RPM, 3-phase, 1/2HP and a Toshiba VFNC1S VFD. Motor was off ebay. Would have preferred 1750RPM but the lower speed is fine as I can up the RPM with the VFD. I don't have a double pulley but no big deal with a VFD. Was about $100 for all off ebay, cheaper than a new motor ;) Scott G. Henion Craftsman 12x36 lathe: http://shdesigns.org/Craftsman12x36 ------- NOTE TO FILE: This conversation about fitting Atlas lathes with a VFD actually is just as useful for replacing single phase motors powering other brands. ------- VFD and 3-pase motor to power my lathe [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: "nevetslleksah" stevesbunkbedsx~xxaol.com Date: Tue Dec 11, 2012 10:16 am ((PST)) I have an Atlas 10F 10 inch lathe currently with 1/2 HP single speed AC motor, v-belt drive with countershaft and 16 speeds. Would like to replace the setup with 3-phase motor and variable frequency drive (VFD) to eliminate some of the belt changes and have opportunity for variable speed. Anyone in the group running a VFD / 3-phase motor setup? What RPM is your motor, what HP, what make and model VFD do you have, what spindle speeds can you obtain with your setup? I like to run carbide tooling occasionaly so need higher spindle speeds for this. I run mostly 1018 mild steel from probably 1/4" diameter and larger so carbide requires approx 5000 RPM spindle speed for 1/4" diameter. 3-phase motors can be obtained in 3600, 1800, 1200, and 900 RPM's at 60 cycles. Any recommendations on speed and HP? I was thinking of going 3/4 or 1 horsepower which I can get in a 56 frame size and that would fit in place of the 1/2 HP AC motor I have now under the countershaft bracket. Appreciate any advice. Thanks. ------- Re: VFD and 3-pase motor to power my lathe Posted by: "Scott Henion" shenionx~xxshdesigns.org Date: Tue Dec 11, 2012 10:36 am ((PST)) I would get an 1800RPM, 1/2HP motor. 3/4HP at the most. My 1/2HP does fine, I can cut threads without using the back gear. Mine is 1150RPM but I wanted 1750. I got the motor for $48 off ebay; the price was the main point. The controller was under $30 (another ebay steal). 120V VFD's will do up to 1/2HP. If you want to go 3/4HP, almost all VFDs available will be 240V. I had a 3/4HP 1750RPM motor but the VFD kept tripping out on over current. Not running but during start and stop. I run my VFD from 20Hz to 90Hz. That gives me 350RPM to 750RPM. With a 1750 RPM motor, you should be able to get near 5k spindle speed by increasing the frequency. A "VFD qualified" motor would be best but not cheap. They will run more efficiently and not trip GFCI outlets. Regular motors will have less torque at lower and higher speeds. Users here have recommended automationdirect.com drives. If you keep an eye on ebay you can get new and demo VFD's cheap. Mine was almost new; a demo unit. On my 12x36, the motor does interfere with the countershaft if I need to change the belt. There is just enough clearance. It is not really the size of the motor but the connection box is right below the countershaft. Scott G. Henion Craftsman 12x36 lathe: http://shdesigns.org/Craftsman12x36 ------- Re: VFD and 3-pase motor to power my lathe Posted by: "Doc" n8as1x~xxaol.com docn8as Date: Tue Dec 11, 2012 10:52 am ((PST)) FWIW. the Atlas 10 F was never designed to be used w/ carbide tooling ... while it CAN be used, the rigidity is lacking ...it was also designed for a top speed of 2000rpm NOT 5 thou ..& even 2000 may be pushing it. nothing says just because you may use carbide on 1/4 in stock at 5000, that you HAVE to run at that speed...it may be optimum & better finish, but unless you are in production, not necessary. other thoughts are, do you know the max speed to run your chuck before it FLIES APART ????...what kind of vibration & shake will you have at 5000rpm & how long will it be before your lathe wears out /vibrates out that speed ...gear train? leadscrew? 1/2 nuts? 5000 rpm lathes start at over 2 tons weight ...near two times the weight of a 10 f. do you use a traveling steady on 1/4 inch stock using carbide tooling??? ...if not the force needed for carbide to take a cut, would flex 1/4 stock, affecting accuracy ...recommended even w/ hi speed bits if extending more than 1/2 inch from chuck/collet. just my thoughts, others may feel different ... best iwshes doc ------- Re: VFD and 3-pase motor to power my lathe Posted by: "Eggleston Lance" wheezer606x~xxverizon.net Date: Tue Dec 11, 2012 11:56 am ((PST)) Had a 10f, used it, sold it. Have a Craftsman 12" TH42. Am running a 1/2HP 1750 rpm 3ph motor with Minarik vfd, VFD runs off 120V, outputs 220V 3ph, limited to 1/2 HP max I would never consider running either lathe at 5000 rpm. I have two precision instrument makers lathes that might run that fast. They have precision ground hardened steel spindle tapers running in LARGE bronze taper bushes with flood oiling. They are for sale if you need one. I like to run carbide tooling occasionaly so need higher spindle speeds for this. I run mostly 1018 mild steel from probably 1/4" diameter and larger so carbide requires approx 5000 RPM spindle speed for 1/4" diameter. I run carbide on occasion, less as time goes on. Too fragile. The Atlas lathe has too much flex for the pressure needed to make a clean cut. I use them mostly on cast iron because of the crust. Maybe if I had a travelling steady it would be better on the plain steel. I find I can get a better finish with sharp HSS bits. lance ------- VFD [continuation of VFD and 3-pase motor to power my lathe] Posted by: "warrengrant" warrengrantx~xxyahoo.com Date: Tue Dec 11, 2012 3:20 pm ((PST)) Most of the specifics have already been answered. I put a single phase 120VAC VFD on my lathe and a 240 VAC VFD on my mill as it had a bigger motor. You can set the limits for your speed during the setup of the VFD by limiting the Freq you allow it to run. I've never had any problems and love both of them which are different makes. The one on the mill did not have a variable pot on it so I had to do a little make shift to install one but it works great. I have a pic posted someplace and it shows the VFD to the side. Unfortunately I had to order 10 pots to use one but it was still a good deal. My mill VFD was 2.2K for 3 HP. I try to go just a little over so I don't have a problem running at the motor rating. Mill has a 2 HP on it. This is the one I bought. http://www.ebay.com/itm/300652886681?ssPageName=STRK:MEW AX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649 ------- VFD Posted by: "warrengrant" warrengrantx~xxyahoo.com Date: Wed Dec 12, 2012 1:37 pm ((PST)) I mentioned that I put VFD on both Mill and Lathes of mine. They both have 3 ph motors the mill is 2 hp and lathe 1 hp. I put the belts on the smallest pulleys to get as much torque as possible since I can adjust the speed anywhere I want it. The 110VAC 1 ph to 220 VAC 3 ph 1 HP VFD is an EATON MVX9000 and already had the pot on it. The 220 VAC 1 PH to 220 VAC 3 ph is a 3 HP running a 2 HP motor and is the HY series I purchased on Ebay that I had to ad the pot to it to make it easier to adj the speed. If you don't add the pot then you have to use the push buttons on the front of the drive and it is sort of a pain unless you get a speed that you like and don't need to adjust it often. ------- Re: VFD Posted by: "warrengrant" warrengrantx~xxyahoo.com Date: Wed Dec 12, 2012 1:45 pm ((PST)) Running motors on VFD at low RPM's is absolutely a big caution. That's why I run the belts on the smallest pulleys and turn up the VFD. I did know about the insulation rating but have forgotten to check out what I have so I need to do this. Anyone who is going the VFD route needs to read below and check this out. Replacing motors can get very expensive very fast. Maybe I'm just lucky so far that I haven't had any problems. Lawrence Sciortino wrote: > I'm with the others who've advised against bypassing your lathe's > countershaft pulleys. With your VFD, you'll probably find, as I did, > that with the variability of speed through use of the VFD you will > not need to move the final drive belt very often, but for very low or > very high spindle speeds, you'll be glad to move the belt. Even with > advanced circuitry of some VFDs, like sensorless vector, you will > lose needed torque at very low speeds. > > Another point about VFDs that's not often made, but can be > disappointing to the unaware: If you are running a motor with an > insulation rating of less than F, there is a risk of damage to the > motor's insulation from excessive heat. Slow speed operation is the > culprit, and motor manufacturers offer "inverter rated" or similar > nomenclature motors that are designed internally for VFD operation. > The insulation rating of these motors is most often F or G, and they > are slightly higher in cost, but essential for long term reliability > with VFDs, especially if you operate much at slow speeds. Most > common 3 phase moors of less than 5 HP have B rated insulation - not > designed for other than their normal operating RPM. > > Of course many are using VFDs with B rated motors, but unless they > are well ventilated and don't do much slow RPM work, the winding > insulation is likely to fail prematurely. This info was gained after > I damaged a new Leeson motor and was informed by a dealer/repair shop > here in Seattle. Since then, I've found the same information reading > on-line about VFD operation and motor insulation. > Larry ------- Re: VFD Posted by: "Guenther Paul" paulguenterx~xxatt.net Date: Wed Dec 12, 2012 2:13 pm ((PST)) The vdf controls the motor speed, you don't need to change the belt any more. GP ------- Re: VFD Posted by: "Guenther Paul" paulguenterx~xxatt.net Date: Wed Dec 12, 2012 2:26 pm ((PST)) I have no problem with my mill. I guess the motor quality is better. My atlas runs on 110 volts. I don't understand why you would run an Atlas on 3 phase if that is what you are doing. GP ------- Re: VFD Posted by: "jerdalx~xxsbcglobal.net" jtiers Date: Wed Dec 12, 2012 6:10 pm ((PST)) For one thing, because Atlas, in common with most small super-lightweight lathes, is a chatter machine. Single phase power makes chatter hugely worse, but with 3 phase, the power flow is so constant that chatter is far less of a problem than with single phase. Many people have chatter problems, if you don't, then good for you. Then of course you can change speeds easily to get away from chatter speeds, or to get the best speed for parting off, etc, etc, etc. Infinitely variable speed is a very nice luxury. JT ------- Re: VFD Posted by: "wa5cabx~xxcs.com" Date: Wed Dec 12, 2012 3:52 pm ((PST)) GP, The comments related to overheating at slow speeds are because the cooling fan in the motor also slows down so it moves less air through the motor. The power input (volts and amps) however is at least for the purpose of this discussion, constant. So the amount of heat generated by the motor is constant. With less cooling air moving through the motor it will get warmer and at very low speeds will overheat. Hence the need to still change the belt to get the full speed range. There is a file (that I haven't yet read) in the group's Files section with a title something like VFD drive fan controller. That may be an attempt at a way around the problem. As to the 3-phase question, although most (or maybe all) of the VFD controllers mentioned in this thread operate from either 120 or 240VAC single phase at 60 CPS; they all output 120 or 240 VAC 3-phase at varying frequency (30 to 90 CPS has been mentioned). So the motor is 3-phase but the supply is single-phase. Robert D. ------- Re: VFD Posted by: "jerdalx~xxsbcglobal.net" jtiers Date: Wed Dec 12, 2012 6:00 pm ((PST)) Generally, you can go 3:1 with no particular problem. The issue, of course, is that you will be running the motor at low speed but full torque, which means full load current, and thus all the losses. But at very low speed, there is poor cooling. Airflow is not proportional to rpm, it tends to be somewhere between the square and cube of rpm. So it drops off pretty fast at even slightly low RPM. VFD rated motors have a spec for that, and usually it will be around a 10:1 ratio based on cooling. Other motors won't do as well, and so 3:1 is a good ratio to hold to. It makes sense anyway, since the POWER of the motor is reduced in proportion to RPM with constant torque available. Is the motor any good for your purpose at 1/10 of rated power? And, usually you want MORE torque at lower speeds, not the same, so using pulley or gear ratios to keep the motor speed up is a good plan. JT ------- Re: VFD Posted by: "jerdalx~xxsbcglobal.net" jtiers Date: Wed Dec 12, 2012 6:12 pm ((PST)) Some people mount a small computer-type muffin fan on the motor to move air through it at low speeds. That can be an effective solution, which I should have mentioned in prior reply. JT ------- Re: VFD Posted by: "Eggleston Lance" wheezer606x~xxverizon.net Date: Wed Dec 12, 2012 6:35 pm ((PST)) If you do this, be sure to add a replaceable filter so you don't blow crap into the motor. lance ------- Re: VFD Posted by: "Jon Elson" elsonx~xxpico-systems.com Date: Thu Dec 13, 2012 9:24 am ((PST)) Carvel Webb wrote: > Another point which doesn't seem to be mentioned is that by gearing down the speeds by changing the belts( if you will pardon the mixed metaphor:>) ) , the amount of TORQUE available is much higher which is useful if drilling with large bits or taking heavy cuts. < Yup, lots of people think they can get the full range of speeds and torque without ever having to change the belt position. Parting-off large pieces of stock, threading large-diameter work and big boring need a fair bit of torque to get anything done in a reasonable amount of time. A VFD can give a wide speed range, but can't increase torque like a belt reduction does. Jon ------- [atlas_craftsman] 10" TH 42-Has anyone ever tried a 1/2 hp brushed DC motor Posted by: "mijae503" cushmanbluex~xxgmail.com Date: Mon Jan 7, 2013 6:45 pm ((PST)) Has anyone ever tried a 1/2 hp brushed DC motor directly to the spindle shaft, not using the counter shaft? This is physically a large baldor industrial 1/2 HP,brushed motor 1750 RPM, 90 volt with a nice controller. If so, what pulley size did you use on the spindle and motor. I was thinking of a ratio 1 to 1 on the pulley to the spindle and using the largest pulley for better belt grip. The motor is just sitting in the shop doing nothing but looking at me. Any suggestions or input will be welcome. ------- Re: 10" TH 42-Has anyone ever tried a 1/2 hp brushed DC motor Posted by: "Donald-Gritti" donald-grittix~xxcomcast.net Date: Tue Jan 8, 2013 5:47 am ((PST)) Hi All. Another question about DC motor use. A previous answer to my inquiry suggested a number of manufacturers of DC speed controllers. Turns out Surplus Center has new DC speed controllers on their website for +- $75. If you can determine the natural speed of your motor that would suggest the pulley ratio between the motor shaft & the maximum spindle RPM you would need. Don ------- Re: 10" TH 42-Has anyone ever tried a 1/2 hp brushed DC motor Posted by: "Steve Haskell" stevesbunkbedsx~xxaol.com Date: Tue Jan 8, 2013 2:14 pm ((PST)) I've done something similar with my Atlas 10F54 lathe. I had a used 4-step pulley from an Atlas 7B shaper (approx 3-4-5-6 inch OD) with 3/4" bore. I made a bushing to get me from 3/4" ID down to the motor shaft diameter. I think you will find that you might still need to shift the belt from step to step in order to get the ratios you will need for the speeds and torque you will need for the tooling (high speed steel and/or carbide) and the size and material of the parts you might be turning. You have what sounds like a decent motor and controller. What I did was purchase a new 550 Watt (approx 3/4 HP) sewing machine motor from an ebay seller. Done this twice. Neither controller lasted very long, burned out something in the circuit. I think the motors are still good. I have the same sewing machine motor setup on my Atlas 6 inch MK lathe for about a year, and it has held up so far and the variable speed capability is great. It also has a 4-step v-belt pulley setup (uses a 1/4 inch wide belt). But I don't use the 6" lathe that often so time will tell if the setup will last. Currently for my 10" lathe, I purchased a brand new 1 HP Marathon 3-phase VFD rated motor and a new VFD (variable frequency drive, 120V input, 3 phase output). I am driving the lathe directly from the motor using the 3-4-5-6 4-step pulley with a link type v-belt. I can get spindle RPM's from 30RPM in back gear (frequency of 5 Hz) to about 2200 RPM in direct drive (about 75 Hz) depending on what step I am on with the belt. This is comparable to the speeds that were available on the original Atlas setup with AC 1725 RPM motor and countershaft setup. The miminum Hertz for this VFD rated motor is 4 Hz and the max is some- thing like 120 Hz but I don't think I should run the lathe that fast so currently I have the VFD maxed out at 75 Hz. Again, the variable speed capability is great and I find being able to set the spindle speed at the "theoretically correct calculated RPM" for the tool, drill, reamer, and work material / diameter is "comforting" to me. But this setup is new (only had it setup this way for a few weeks) and time will tell how it will actually work out. So the original Atlas countershaft setup is under the lathe bench unused at this point. Good luck with your project. Steve Haskell ------- [atlas618lathe] Added a 110V 1hp Hitachi HJ200 VFD to my 618 Atlas today Posted by: "bloomingtonmike888" bloomingtonmikex~xxgmail.com Date: Fri Aug 2, 2013 1:14 am ((PDT)) Added a Hitachi HJ200 1hp 110V VFD to my Atlas 618 today. I have a video at http://youtu.be/yDQMh_yk9Eo if you want to see it. Motor is a 3/4hp Rockwell that was made by Baldor. I really like that VFD. I will most likely convert the 12" Craftsman Commercial to a VFD and 3ph motor as well to get easy speed changes. You can add a potentiometer faceplate to the HJ200 series VFDs for ~$20. http://youtu.be/yDQMh_yk9Eo Enjoy. Mikie ------- Re: Added a 110V 1hp Hitachi HJ200 VFD to my 618 Atlas today Posted by: "azbruno" azbrunox~xxyahoo.com Date: Fri Aug 2, 2013 8:04 am ((PDT)) Nice... but you'll want to be very careful running the reverse direction with a threaded spindle. If the chuck isn't on tight it could go a flyin. Bruno ------- Re: Added a 110V 1hp Hitachi HJ200 VFD to my 618 Atlas to... Posted by: wa5cabx~xxcs.com wa5cab Date: Fri Aug 2, 2013 2:07 pm ((PDT)) Of course it's your machine to do with as you wish, but the setup you have on your 618 would be the right size to put on your 12" Commercial. If you have a crash with it on your little 6" parts will fly. Robert D. ------- Re: Atlas 618 & VFD [atlas618lathe] Posted by: "LorenJ" magister.ludix~xxyahoo.com Date: Sun Aug 18, 2013 3:39 pm ((PDT)) You can't beat the price on treadmill motors. People want to get old treadmills out of the house, so free ones regularly show up on Craig's List. They tend to go quickly because hobbyists use them to upgrade drill presses and band saws. Worst case, you might have to pay $25-50 bucks. You'll want to make a nice enclosure for the controller, of course, but isn't that the reason we have a garage full of tools? Loren ------- Treadmill motors [atlas618lathe] Posted by: cbdeajrx~xxyahoo.com Date: Sun Oct 20, 2013 8:25 am ((PDT)) I have a treadmill motor which is marked (2.50HP x~xx 130VDC/1865 WATTS). Can this motor be used on a 618? What type of control board will I need? ------- Re: Treadmill motors Posted by: "Curt Wuollet" wideopen1x~xxcharter.net Date: Sun Oct 20, 2013 8:35 pm ((PDT)) Any of a number of standard DC motor controllers. I use a minarik MM301U It works well on my Craftsman 6". Mine came without the countershaft so I made about a 5:1 reduction countershaft with the 4 slot pulley on it and I just leave the drive belt in a center slot and use the drive pot. I recommend you set the current limit low, as this setup has enough torque to break things like cutoff tools. In back gear for threading you could break the tool holder or other expensive stuff. Less reduction would work but I wanted very slow speeds for threading and my lathe has plain bearings so I have no need for high RPM. Regards cww ------- Re: Treadmill motors Posted by: wa5cabx~xxcs.com Date: Sun Oct 20, 2013 10:31 pm ((PDT)) The Atlas 618 was originally designed to use a 1/3 HP motor. 2.5 HP is serious overkill. About like a P&W on the front of a J-3. Robert Downs - Houston wa5cab dot com (Web Store) ------- Re: Treadmill motors Posted by: "David Hair" thehairsx~xxoptilink.us Date: Mon Oct 21, 2013 2:32 am ((PDT)) At 500 rpm you don't seem to have but about 1/2 HP or less. They are rated full HP at about 4500 to 6500 RPM. D.Hair ------- Re: Treadmill motors Posted by: "Curt Wuollet" wideopen1x~xxcharter.net Date: Mon Oct 21, 2013 10:25 pm ((PDT)) Electric motor HP ratings are pretty elastic and I doubt anyone would really see 2.5 HP out of one of these. It would be at the top RPM or close. 2.5 HP is way overkill for a treadmill too. It's just the rating of the motor that would produce the required torque at the required speeds without burning up at 100% duty. I suspect thermal considerations over the range of speeds was a bigger factor than the actual HP needed. A 2.5 HP motor will have less copper loss than a smaller one. But for the lathe, it's pretty easy to limit the available torque simply by tweaking the current limit pot. The humorous part is that someone usually interjects that these are underpowered by this stage of the discussion, That's because the drive that comes on the treadmill limits the torque to a human level to help prevent any liability and make it comfortable to use. With a 5:1 reduction and a decent drive, the torque really needs to be limited as 10 or 15 amps into one of these makes a _lot_ of twist. I suspect I have it limited to 2 or 3 amps. Regards cww ------- Re: Treadmill motors Posted by: wa5cabx~xxcs.com Date: Mon Oct 21, 2013 11:22 pm ((PDT)) OK. But a 1 HP would be a lot smaller. Hopefully, the torque limit control is not easily accessable. Robert D. ------- VFD question [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: "Grant Simmons" gimmonsx~xxgmail.com faidoshets Date: Tue Aug 19, 2014 7:00 am ((PDT)) I bought up a Clausing 8520 mill yesterday. It has a 3/4hp 240v 3 phase motor. I only have 120v in the garage, and I was thinking a VFD might be the best way to power it. I would like to know if any of you gentlemen can give me the benefit of your wisdom as to which VFDs you particularly like or don't, and what features I should be looking for (e.g. reversing). I've never had a mill before, so I'm dumb about this stuff. I could replace the motor with a dc unit, of course. My Craftsman 6" lathe runs very happily on an old tape drive motor and a Minarik DC drive. Surplus DC motors are plentiful and cheap, so maybe that would be best? Thanks, Grant ------- Re: VFD question Posted by: "James Rice" james.ricex~xxgmail.com jlrice54 Date: Tue Aug 19, 2014 7:34 am ((PDT)) I use VFD's on both of my South Bend lathes, a 9A and a 16" as well as on my Clausing 8540 horizontal mill. I've had great luck with the TECO- Westinghouse drives sold on eBay by Dealers Industrial Equipment. The drives are made specifically for phase conversion and you do not have to oversize the drive to compensate for single phase power input. I've been using the EV series with excellent results. I was given a 5HP rotary phase converter and I haven't even hooked it up since I tried the VFD's. www.dealerselectric.com For your fractional horsepower mill, they do offer 120/1ph to 230/3ph conversion models. I have no experience with those as my shop has a 240V 200A service separate from my house service. The VFD's can be put into reverse mode by a push button wired to the control terminal strip. I usually use a 4 unit 22mm control station with FWD, REV, STOP push buttons and a 10k speed pot all wired to the VFD. The control station enclosure usually costs around $6-7 on eBay, the push buttons run under $7 each but the pot usually costs about $37. www.automationdirect.com/ I used VFD's for years before I retired as a 30 year master electrician who was a control/instrumentation contractor my last 15 years in the trade. We had almost totally abandoned DC drives for VFD's in the last few years I worked in the industry. Using AC motors and VFD's simplified everything from spares stocking to ordering new equipment. James ------- Re: VFD question Posted by: "Ron" r7734gx~xxhotmail.com gerlacr Date: Tue Aug 19, 2014 11:09 am ((PDT)) I will second Jim's recommendation on the Teco drives. I have been using one on my Hardinge mill with good results. RonG ------- Re: VFD question Posted by: "Michael Fagan" woodworker88x~xxgmail.com Date: Tue Aug 19, 2014 3:22 pm ((PDT)) I don't know if you're going to find a 3/4HP VFD with 120V single phase input, but you should be able to find 240V single phase input. I like the Automation Direct GS1 drives because they have the run/stop controls and speed control potentiometer directly on the front of the VFD, no control station required. Forward/Reverse is available through external inputs. They have a 240V 1Ph 1HP model for $134. Their largest 120V 1Ph input model is 0.5HP 230V 3Ph output. Michael ------- Re: VFD question Posted by: "Carl Hollopeter" chollox~xxbellsouth.net Date: Tue Aug 19, 2014 3:31 pm ((PDT)) Grant, Check this link. It's for up to a one HP motor 115 V single phase input, 230 3 phase output: http://www.factorymation.com/Products/FM50_115V/FM50-101-C.html Carl H ------- Re: VFD question Posted by: "James Rice" james.ricex~xxgmail.com jlrice54 Date: Tue Aug 19, 2014 3:45 pm ((PDT)) Dealers Industrial has the same drive listed for $19 less. http://dealerselectric.com/FM50-101-C.asp ------- Re: VFD question Posted by: lavern50x~xxsbcglobal.net genetoymaker Date: Tue Aug 19, 2014 4:56 pm ((PDT)) I bought a 120 V single phase VFD that converts to 220 V 3 phase for my mill. It has a FWD & RV button and ramps up the speed rather than immediate start. My motor is 1 HP and this works out great. Several suppiers make this option. Eugene ------- Re: VFD question Posted by: "James Rice" james.ricex~xxgmail.com jlrice54 Date: Tue Aug 19, 2014 5:05 pm ((PDT)) Most VFDs' can be programmed to soft start, quick or soft stop. Some have F and R on the front panel, some have those functions accessible through remote push buttons. They tend to be very customizable. I happen to prefer mounting the VFD away from the machine in a clean location away from flying metal chips and controlling it through industrial style sealed remote push buttons and speed pots as I did when I worked in industry. The electronics seem to last longer that way. Some people will want the drive close at hand and operable off the front panel. It's all personal preference. James ------- Re: VFD question Posted by: "James Rice" james.ricex~xxgmail.com jlrice54 Date: Tue Aug 19, 2014 5:33 pm ((PDT)) The 120V input option is really great for those who do not have 240V power in their shop. My building had a 20 circuit 200A main panel located in one corner when I bought it. Obviously 20 circuit spaces wasn't going to cut it in a 2200sqft shop with all the equipment I drag in, so I ran 1-1/4" EMT conduit with 3 #2 conductors plus an earth ground to each of the other three corners of the building and set a 100A 20 circuit sub-panel in each corner. I then set a 100A 20 circuit sub-panel next to the incoming main panel. This gave me another 80 circuits. Since I'm usually the only one working and I can only use one machine at a time, this let me isolate each machine on its own circuit for safety lockout reasons and feeding 400A of sub-panels from a 200A panel isn't an issue as my load/demand/diversity factors are very, very low. Panels and circuit breakers are very cheap these days. It's all overkill since my power bill averages $50-100 a month depending upon season. This includes the air conditioning load keeping my office cool. That will probably change next year after I upgrade the shop insulation and air condition the whole building. I tend to run every thing I can from 240V as it lets me run small conduit and lighter conductors to service the load. Plus a 240V load is naturally balanced whereas a 120V load is concentrated on one incoming phase or the other. The last time I checked, under average conditions, my load was balanced to within 1.5A. Both of my South Bend lathes, my Clausing 8540 h-mill, my Keller die filer, the air compressor, the heat treating ovens, the powder coating oven, the spot welder, both arc welders, both MIG welders, the TIG welder, the plasma cutter, the office PTAC air conditioner/heater and the 2 post car lift are all 240V. My Atlas-Craftsman 12x36 is beginning to have an issue with the starting capacitor. I'll probably convert it to 3-phase and feed it with a 240V VFD as well. James ------- Re: VFD question Posted by: "Grant Simmons" gimmonsx~xxgmail.com faidoshets Date: Wed Aug 27, 2014 7:50 am ((PDT)) Hi Warren, I got the Teco FM50 for $119 and another $23 or so shipping. I hooked it up yesterday and the mill ran smooth as silk. I'm very pleased. Have to find a 10K potentiometer now and mount the whole thing up nicely. Thanks again to everyone who gave me advice. If I hadn't been reading this group's posts these last couple of years, I probably wouldn't have known about vfds, and would have just swapped in a single phase motor. Grant ------- Re: VFD question Posted by: "Lance Eggleston" gbofx~xxverizon.net crashbone256 Date: Wed Aug 27, 2014 10:33 am ((PDT)) Go to Radio Shack. There are two types, exponential and linear pots. You want to 10K LINEAR pot. Costs a couple bucks. The feed voltage should be 5 or 10 VDC lance ------- Re: VFD question Posted by: wa5cabx~xxcs.com wa5cab Date: Wed Aug 27, 2014 2:59 pm ((PDT)) Actually, there are three taper types, logarithmic, reverse logarithmic, and linear. But linear is the one that you want. Robert Downs - Houston wa5cab dot com (Web Store) MVPA 9480 ------- Re: VFD question Posted by: gimmonsx~xxgmail.com faidoshets Date: Wed Aug 27, 2014 9:20 pm ((PDT)) Turns out I already had a linear 10K pot, and it even had an on off switch built in, so I can turn the vfd on and set the speed from one pot. Amazing little control. I spent a good part of the day programming in the parameters. Grant ------- Re: Single-phase / 3-phase motor? [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: gimmonsx~xxgmail.com faidoshets Date: Fri Nov 21, 2014 4:22 pm ((PST)) With help from this group, I recently powered my Clausing 8520 mill with a vfd, and I really love it. The mill came with a 1hp 240v 3 phase motor, and my garage only has 120v single phase. Several members pointed me to vfd units that not only turned my single to 3 phase but bumped my 120v up to the required 240v. The cost with shipping was around $120. The motor works perfectly, runs very smoothly and has soft start and stop, reversing and speed control. Pretty easy to wire up. I recommend that you strongly consider the vfd option if you already have the 3 phase motor. My 6" Craftsman lathe came with no motor, so I used a 1970s brushed dc tape drive motor that I already had with a Minarik dc drive. That system works pretty well too, with a lot of the same features as the vfd. Good luck, Grant ------- VFD and Tach advice [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: "Mark Heefner" coater68x~xxfrontier.com Date: Thu Jan 1, 2015 8:27 pm ((PST)) Hi everyone, working at getting my recently acquired 12 x 24 craftsman lathe all set up and looking for some input. An electrician buddy of mine found me a freq drive so now I need a three phase motor. Was wondering what frame or mounting set ups have worked for you guys who have done this set up. Also looking at putting a tach readout on and found the machtach kits online and was wondering if any of you have installed one of these on your lathes, and if so which triggering set up you used and how you mounted the pick-up/trigger etc. I'm sure I'll get some good inputs from this group, seems like there are some pretty sharp individuals on here. ------- Re: VFD and Tach advice Posted by: jerdalx~xxsbcglobal.net jtiers Date: Fri Jan 2, 2015 8:44 am ((PST)) Put the VFD in a metal electrical box if possible. That will keep chips out of it. VFDs are allergic to conductive particles, and will have a short and violent life if such get inside them. As for a tach, if the VFD has a display, that can give you the motor speed, which is basically a tach, but getting spindle speed requires reference to a table for the belt setup you are using, since the drive ratio changes. You don't NEED a tach, but it can be nice sometimes. Jerry ------- Re: VFD and Tach advice Posted by: "Rick - yahoo" rgsparber.yax~xxgmail.com rgsparber Date: Fri Jan 2, 2015 8:52 am ((PST)) I have a VFD on my mill which has a belt drive. For each belt position, I made up a card that maps frequency to RPM. The cards are glued to soft magnetic material so they stick to a metal plate on the front of the VFD. Change belts – change card. Has worked well for me over the last few years. My VFD is not in a metal box but is far from any swarf. So far, so good. It needs air flow or it will overheat. Rick ------- Re: VFD and Tach advice Posted by: "Mark Heefner" coater68x~xxfrontier.com Date: Fri Jan 2, 2015 9:31 am ((PST)) This machtach will also let you set the dia of the part and will show the sfm. Probably be more of a gadget factor than a necessity but it is under $60 and seems like it would be handy at times with the vfd. I was going to mount the vfd in a fan cooled enclosure -------- Re: VFD and Tach advice Posted by: "Doc" n8as1x~xxaol.com docn8as Date: Fri Jan 2, 2015 2:35 pm ((PST)) $10 on ebay will get you a mechanical starret revolution counter. best wishes doc ------- Intro and A Question [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: hjr_phoenixx~xxyahoo.com classic_relics Date: Tue Sep 29, 2015 7:05 pm ((PDT)) Hey all, glad to be here! I just purchased a Craftsman 101.07403 12"x36" lathe on Sunday. It looks to be in really good shape, look forward to working with it. My first question isn't so much lathe related though, but rather about the motor on the lathe. It appears to be original, a Craftsman 113.12130 115/230 volts, 1/2 hp. The starter capacitor is missing in action. Just a cover and the two wires. I can find some info for this motor online, but not what capacitor it takes. I can find capacitors pretty reasonable on ebay, but since mine is gone I have nothing to compare to make sure I get the correct one. Any help would be much appreciated! TIA! Niles ------- Re: Intro and A Question Posted by: "Kurt Bjorling" kbx~xxmuziker.org kbjorling Date: Wed Sep 30, 2015 5:03 am ((PDT)) Sears part no. 37073, substitute STD376132, still available: http://www.searspartsdirect.com/part-number/37073/0009/113.html Kurt B. ------- Re: Intro and A Question Posted by: "Rexarino" rexarinox~xxgmail.com rexarino Date: Wed Sep 30, 2015 4:42 pm ((PDT)) Since I've had some interest in fixing motors having little information, I looked at some favorite resources, and got some feedback from knowledgeable types. A 1/2 hp capacitor START motor might have from 10 mfd to 270 mfd values for the capacitor, or even outside those values -- that's the widest range I found for a half horse. Safe substitutions are + or - 10% of the rated value (some say + or - 25%), too small and the motor won't start, too large and the start winding gets fried. There are NO standard values for any motor size, each start cap is engineered for the motor it's used on. The motor plate sometimes states the cap value. If the capacitor is bad, the motor will hum, but not start. A hum could be caused by other problems also. No noise indicates a different problem. Underpowered motors are often wired for 220 VAC but being run on 110 VAC (or similar). However, if you have a pile of unused start caps laying around, you could try a small value, working your way up until the motor starts readily, then choosing something that size or larger for your motor. THAT is a crap shoot approach, you'll likely damage a few caps and perhaps fry the motor. The obvious good answer is to use the motor on your boat (as an anchor) and find another motor. Good luck and best regards, Rex ------- Re: Intro and A Question Posted by: "Pete Mclaughlin" pete_mclaughlin_93555x~xxyahoo.com Date: Wed Sep 30, 2015 11:04 pm ((PDT)) Here is an article with recommended capacitor sizes depending on the size of the motor. http://inspectapedia.com/electric/Motor_Capacitor_Selection.php Pete Mclaughlin Atlas 10F ------- Re: Intro and A Question Posted by: "Kbeckmanx~xxwi.rr.com" kbeckmanx~xxwi.rr.com kbeckman Date: Thu Oct 1, 2015 6:26 am ((PDT)) That should be an exact replacement, according to Sears. The Sears 113.12130 1/2 HP motor was made by Emerson Electric (that's what the 113.xxxxx means). Sears lists the part number for that capacitor as 37073, which Sears substitutes to STD376132, which is a picture of a Packard PMJ324. I think it's amazing that Sears still stocks parts for it's equipment from the 1940's. Keith ------- Atlas lathe 1/2hp motor capacitor removal? [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: aeroronx~xxbellsouth.net aeroronx~xxbellsouth.net Date: Thu Nov 26, 2015 5:24 pm ((PST)) I have a 10" Atlas lathe with the original 1/2HP Atlas motor (Cat No 2530A-1, frame 118C). The motor capacitor was dented when the lathe was in transit when I moved. I removed the 2 screws that hold the capacitor but its wires go through a grommet and look like they are incorporated into the motor body and field assembly inside the motor body and not detachable. Is there a trick to remove the capacitor? Ron Crowell ------- Re: Atlas lathe 1/2hp motor capacitor removal? Posted by: "Ctb11365x~xxyahoo.com" ctb11365x~xxyahoo.com ctb11365 Date: Thu Nov 26, 2015 6:13 pm ((PST)) Unsolder the wires ------- Re: Atlas lathe 1/2hp motor capacitor removal? Posted by: david.deboizex~xxverizon.net inspiro_creo Date: Thu Nov 26, 2015 7:20 pm ((PST)) I have two or three of those Kingston-Conley made for Atlas motors. Several years back with the help from here I rewired one of them to accept a drum switch. Someone correct me, however I recall that the two screws you removed are for the cover over the capacitor. The cover should have and end cap where the two wires run through the grommet. Carefully slide off the cover from the end cap. The capacitor should slide out still attached to the end cap. Then there should be the two wires with spade connectors to the capacitor. Remove the spade connectors from the capacitor and you're done. If the capacitor cover is dented pretty bad preventing you from sliding it off the capacitor, then you may have to either sacrifice the capacitor or cut the wires to fix. Hope this is helpful. David (NJ) ------- Re: Atlas lathe 1/2hp motor capacitor removal? Posted by: aeroronx~xxbellsouth.net aeroronx~xxbellsouth.net Date: Thu Nov 26, 2015 7:54 pm ((PST)) THANK YOU! I got it off! The capacitor's cover's end cap that was dented was the one covering the end where the wires are soldered to the capacitor, and was so tight I could not move it so I thought it was an integral part of the capacitor (I did not know what to expect for something they did circa 1942!). Thanks for the explanation! ------- Re: Atlas lathe 1/2hp motor capacitor removal? Posted by: "Jerrold Tiers" jerdalx~xxsbcglobal.net jtiers Date: Thu Nov 26, 2015 9:32 pm ((PST)) The wires are not part of the capacitor, they are part of the motor, and are probably soldered to the capacitor. One might, if there is room, use the "faston" terminals crimped on the wires instead of soldering them. Jerry ------- Re: Atlas lathe 1/2hp motor capacitor removal? Posted by: wa5cabx~xxcs.com wa5cab Date: Thu Nov 26, 2015 9:35 pm ((PST)) If you have to replace the capacitor for any reason and if the wires are actually soldered to the capacitor (I just bought a 1/3 HP version of your motor but haven't yet been into it), you will need to crimp and/or solder two female spade lugs to the ends of the two wires as most if not all motor start capacitors you will find today will have male spade terminals on the end, not solder terminals. You may need straight, or you may need right angle, females. Robert Downs - Houston wa5cab dot com (Web Store) MVPA 9480 ------- 1964 Atlas/Craftsman motor support Rings [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: "Rick - yahoo" rgsparber.yax~xxgmail.com rgsparber Date: Sun Feb 7, 2016 5:57 pm ((PST)) It turned out that the rubber support rings that fit on my 1964 motor are not that common. I was able to find rings that had the right OD and then grind the ID to fit. This article explains how I did it: http://rick.sparber.org/MSR.pdf Rick rgsparberx~xxaol.com rick.sparber.org ------- ------------------------------------------------------------------ This is just one of some 80 files about machining and metalworking and useful workshop subjects that can be read at: http://www.janellestudio.com/metal/index.html ------------------------------------------------------------------