This is just one of some 80 files about machining and metalworking and useful workshop subjects that can be read at: http://www.janellestudio.com/metal/index.html ------------------------------------------------------------------ Here find many users' tips about setting up or repairing Atlas metal lathes. The repair and fitting of Atlas metal lathes is the primary subject of this file, but many practices discussed here might be useful for other brands also. The file here called "Atlas Parts General" has contact information for Clausing (Atlas bought Clausing and adopted their more prestigious name). Lots of parts, original or newly made, at better prices than anywhere else. Clausing personnel know a great deal about their old Atlas products and have the majority of spare parts still in stock. Some are original and some are more recently manufactured. And if not in stock (which is more likely in the case of some accessory products like collet closers), they can probably provide a copy of the specifications so you could make one. And in most cases, parts from Clausing are much cheaper than available elsewhere. It makes sense to support this company that so cares for its clients and ancient products -- it is a very rare company indeed. Also, there are discussions in the text file "Atlas Parts General" as to how some parts may be repaired or even made from scratch. There are some repair discussions about the nuts involved for threading, half-nuts or split-nuts (hyphen optional), in the text file on this site called "Thread Dial and Half Nuts". I hope that Atlas owners will learn to read as well as think outside the box. The perfect solution to your Atlas lathe's problem might be completely solved in another group devoted to Taig or Sherline or Myford or Logan or South Bend or 7 X 10...12...whatever Minilathes or ......., and v.v. For example, a very useful message on the Subject: Lathe Alignment Technique appeared in the mlathemodsx~xxyahoogroups.com on 31 Jan 2004. Great advice as to how to make your headstock and tailstock align. That message appears in this file now because it is applicable to any lathe brand. There are a (very) few hints here for problems with Sears' 109 (not Atlas). Those users will do well to join a 109 related group to seek and share ideas. If you got to this file directly from my HOME PAGE, return there by using your browser's back button. BUT if you came to this file as the result of a web search engine, see many additional files on my home page Machining and Metalworking at Home http://www.janellestudio.com/metal/index.html SAFETY WARNING BEWARE: DO NOT ASSUME that any subject matter or procedure or process is safe or correct or appropriate just because it was mentioned in a news/ user group or was included in these files or on this site or on any other web site or was published in a magazine or book or video. Working with metals and machinery and chemicals and electrical equipment is inherently dangerous. Wear safety devices and clothing as appropriate. Remove watches, rings, and jewellery -- and secure or remove loose clothing -- before operating any machine. Read, understand and follow the latest operating procedures and safety instructions provided by the manufacturer of your machine or tool or product. If you do not have those most recent official instructions, acquire a copy through the manufacturer before operating or using their product. Where the company no longer exists, use the appropriate news or user group to locate an official copy. Be careful -- original instructions may not meet current safety standards. Updated safety information and operating instructions may also be available through a local club, a local professional in the trade, a local business, or an appropriate government agency. In every case, use your common sense before beginning or taking the next step; and do not proceed if you have any questions or doubts about any procedure, or the safety of any procedure. Follow all laws and codes, and employ certified or licenced professionals as required by those laws or codes. Hazardous tasks beyond your competence or expertise should also be contracted to professionals. Let's be really careful out there. (c) Copyright 2003 - 2016 Machining and Metalworking at Home The form of the collected work in this text file (including editing, additions, and notes) is copyrighted and this file is not to be reproduced by any means, including electronic, without written permission except for strictly personal use. ======================================================================== From: Jon Elson Date: Tue Jun 20, 2000 4:58pm Subject: Re: bed regrind "M K Campbell Jr." wrote: > I have a Craftsman 12x36 that the bed was in really bad > shape. The ways had worn badly and had many dings through > the whole length of the bed like they used it for an anvil > for years. If I adjusted the gibs for snug fit close to the > head stock, I could get only about 12" travel before > binding. I didn't think the lathe was worth regrinding (and > couldn't afford it either). I found a grinding shop, > Southwest Grinding in Ft Worth, TX, that does not have a > surface grinder but the guy told me he had done several flat > bed lathes on his Blanchard grinder. He put the lathe bed on > the grinder mag chuck upside down and topped the mounting > surfaces so they were parallel with the bed surface. Then > flipped it over and took a few thousandths off the top, just > enough to remove the groove worn by the carriage. It made a > great improvement. I had to mill a little off the front gib > to get it to take up the slack. > Cost of the grinding, $32.00. If I could figure a way to grind the > bottom of the rear way, it would be even better. I know this isn't > the best solution but it's still a lot better than it was. Wow, that's cheap! What I was thinking, about grinding the underside of the ways, was to build a little guide block that would ride on the top part of the bed. It would wrap around the bed way, and hold a grinder (Dremel, air die grinder, etc.) with an adjustable mount, so it could be brought up in tiny increments until it removes the low spot. This could be moved by hand to grind the bottom parallel to the top. Jon ------- From: gcontreras Date: Tue Jun 20, 2000 6:53pm Subject: Re: bed regrind Some time ago, I too was faced with this "resurfacing" problem on my just bought Atlas 3990. I did the same thing; had the bed reground by an automotive repair shop (does big diesel engine repairs). The guy first setup several high T rests and surfaced the top of these. This would assure that the lathe bed would sit on a true surface. The bed was held on these T rests from the underside of the lathe bed (way) proper as it had little or not wear at all as the feet had been removed. The result was just about right. I then laped the bed with a home made 40" straight edge (2" x 5"). What you want is to have all the surfaces parallel and square to each other. When I first placed the carriage on the bed I could barely remove it as it seemed to have stuck it self to the bed surface! The bed was that flat. I have just completed the paint work and have taken my first cut after leveling. No problem at all! A straight cut, no strange markings (rings) and no binding across the entire bed. Well worth it Jim as my lathe a 0.5mm groove on the front shear running towards the headstock and I feel I'm better off... Cost? about $60.00. ------- From: Jon Elson Date: Tue Jun 20, 2000 7:56pm Subject: Re: Re: bed regrind,bottom Pete & Sheri wrote: > I wonder how much wear actually occurs on the "bottom" surfaces. I had a > 10-54 years ago that had lots of wear on the top of the rails, but that > wear was from the carriage running back and forth. The wear on the rear > side would have been from the bed resisting the tool, I assume. But > I wonder if the forces on the underside of the bed would create enough > wear to worry about. Has anybody had a bed reground who knows what had > to be taken off of the "bottom" in order to true it up? Unless the gibs on the bottom were set VERY tight, or there was a lot of swarf getting under there (which is a possibility), there should be VERY little wear. But, when the top of the bed is reground, it is unlikely that the bottom edge is still totally parallel to the top. That's what matters. So, if the grinding ended up taking a little more off one end than the other, the vertical thickness of the ways will now have a 'taper' from one end to the other. That would make setting the bottom gib shims rather tricky, and leave it loose at one end. Strong tool infeed pressure will lift the back of the carriage if the bottom gibs are not fairly snug. This is a problem when parting-off, for instance, also with threading. Jon ------ From: Walter E Emery Date: Wed Jun 21, 2000 7:32pm Subject: Re: bed regrind Blanchard grinding is done with a large diameter ring stone with the part to be ground on a rotating magnetic table, usually with pretty coarse grit stones and flooding coolant. I had one in my shop for many years, but would never use it for lathe beds. Its main purpose is rapid removal of stock. While a Blanchard is usually sufficient for automotive cylinder heads which will sit stationary on a gasket, I certainly wouldn't want my lathe bed ground that way, as it will leave swirl marks across the ways which will not be conducive to even wear or smooth operation. A big surface grinder is required with a skilled operator to do the job properly. Even a few thousandths of taper can really screw up the operation of your lathe, and as Earl said, the guy must know what wheels to use. Walt Emery -------- From: Guy Fuller Date: Mon Jun 26, 2000 8:23pm Subject: Re: re: bed regrind >>Mickey, For a novice would you please expound a little on hand scraping. > Ouch! That's not an easy subject. But, historically, the accuracy of > machine tools was assured not by grinding the bed on a huge surface > grinder, but by a guy with a small hand tool and a big straightedge. > > The general way this is done is you apply some blue painter's pigment > (Prussian Blue) to either the object or the straightedge (surface plate, > precision square, etc.) and then rub the two together. By examining > the pattern left on the part, you can see how accurately it fits against > the master. When it gets quite close, you can start tweaking how many > microscopic high spots per square inch there are. These high spots > are called bearing points. Supposedly, you are supposed to go for > about 25 bearing points per square inch. > > How this is done is that the pattern of the bluing tells you where the > high spots are, and you use the scraping tool to scrape off tiny > slivers of iron until the high spots are reduced. Then, you check > against the straight edge again. > > There is a LOT of technique to this. I have done some small experiments > with it, and found it does work, and can be done without vast > amounts of skill. I suspect the skill comes in when planning how > to perform spotting and scraping on larger pieces, where you can > quickly get in a mess while working on one area, such that another > area is totally off. I have a well worn Bridgeport that really needs > a good scraping job done on it. Jon ------- Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 11:37:07 EDT From: catboat15x~xxaol.com Subject: Re: New to the list In a message dated 9/19/00, fbcwinx~xx3g.quik.com writes: << Here's a quick question: The cross slide seems to have quite a bit of play in it. Any suggestions on how to shore it up for facing turns? >> Look along the right side of the cross slide. There should be some small headless screws with thin lock nuts there. These adjust the gib (or jib) which is a piece that bears against the side of dovetail where the cross slide moves. Using a thin wrench loosen the lock nuts a bit, use a screwdriver to tighten the screws till you feel the cross slide is locked then loosen just enough to let it move. Kind of a tedious project to get all the adjustment screws set, then locked so the cross slide moves easily with no shake. You, (or at least I do) have to have wrench in one hand, screwdriver in other But, a normal part of using a lathe. John Meacham ------- Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 08:55:48 -0700 From: "Robert Streimikes" Subject: Re: New to the list From: "Harry Boyd" > My trouble is not that the gib screws are loose. I can tighten them down > fully, and the whole cross slide will still vibrate. Any ideas? If you have tightened both sets of gibs (cross slide and compound) and still have the problem then perhaps the saddle is what is vibrating? If so the relevant adjustments are underneath the saddle and there have been a bunch of posts in the past on how to deal with it (esp on what to do after you break the cheezy cast iron gibs (or what ever they are called) down there.) Regards Bob ------- Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 12:03:42 -0400 From: Jude Miller Subject: Re: New to the list >My trouble is not that the gib screws are loose. I can tighten them down >fully, and the whole cross slide will still vibrate. Any ideas? Harry Do you mean that the carriage vibrates? The carriage is the piece that slides on the bed of the lathe. The cross slide slides in and out on the carriage. The carriage has a gib on the back, I believe. There are also adjusting shims underneath the carriage to take up slop in the vertical direction. Older lathe beds often have sufficient wear that the carriage must be somewhat loose at a normal working distance from the headstock in order to traverse the rest of the bed at all. This can be fixed by grinding or scraping, but this is not a minor procedure. Best, Jude Miller ------- Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 15:44:08 EDT From: catboat15x~xxaol.com Subject: Re: New to the list In a message dated 9/20/00, fbcwinx~xx3g.quik.com writes: << My trouble is not that the gib screws are loose. I can tighten them down fully, and the whole cross slide will still vibrate. Any ideas? >> Hi Harry: Are you sure there is a gib in there? Also make sure you loosen the lock nuts enough since I have had the locknuts "lock up" before I got full travel on the adjustment screws. Otherwise, if everything is tight and snug, maybe you are taking too large a bite out of your work. One thing to look for is the difference between plain turning and facing. When you are working on a round piece to reduce diameter there is some clearance for the front of the tool due to the geometry of the set up. (Visualize a flat ended tool against a clyinder and there is front clearance just because the work piece is round.) When facing it is much easier for the "heel" of the tool to drag on the work. If all else fails try to regrind your tool bit to give more clearance to the front end. John Meacham ------- Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 15:32:58 -0500 From: Jon Elson Subject: Re: loose cross slide? > In a message dated 9/20/00, fbcwinx~xx3g.quik.com writes: > << My trouble is not that the gib screws are loose. I can tighten them > down fully, and the whole cross slide will still vibrate. Any ideas? >> Well, there has to be something loose! There are a number of possibilities. There is a gib on the back of the carriage, and two gibs on the UNDERSIDE of the carriage. These are two steel (or cast iron?) plates, with laminated aluminum shims underneath. On several Atlas lathes that had been 'buggered', the laminated shims were turned into accordion pleats, making the gib very loose. This allows the carriage to lift up off the bed with heavy infeed force. You tighten these gibs up by peeling a laminated strip, one at a time. There is also a gib on the carriage, and one on the compound slide. The compound slide tends to get loose, as it is a lightly constructed piece. Finally, there is a swivel that the lower part of the compound slide rests on. There can be problems that cause the swivel to not bear weight properly, so that it wobbles. On a light lathe like the Atlas, you should be able to apply forces with your hand to make the loose junction shift. Without the spindle running, you can get your head right in there to see what is moving. Once you determine exactly what part is shifting, you will know where to look for the problem. Finally, leadscrew backlash might be the problem. If so, then you definitely have some kind of problem with the cutting tool shape or the way you are holding it, as it is developing too much side force on the facing cuts. One last (awful) possibility is that the cross slide casting has cracked, and all it needs is a little more deflection, and it will split into two big pieces! I sure hope this is not what is happening. Jon ------- Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 22:55:59 -0500 From: "M K Campbell Jr." Subject: Re: Leadscrews I talked to Nolan Supply last year about Acme rod 3/4 x 8tpi. They don't list it in their catalog, only 6 and 10 tpi, but they custom make just about anything you want. The guy told me they could make a 6 ft. stick for me for around 50.00 if I remember right. I ended up finding a replacement for my 12x36 so I didn't ever order it. Nolan is at 800-736-2204 or www.nolansupply.com Skip Campbell Ft. Worth, Texas mkctools.com Craftsman 101.28990 12x36 ------- Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2000 21:23:51 -0500 From: "J Tiers" Subject: Re: Green Model 109.2127 The green color probably indicates a re-paint job, that's all, I think they were blue to start with in newer models. No parts are available, almost, except for used, or whatever M Herman has. He adverts in Home Shop Machinist magazine in the classifieds. A guy in Arizona also is supposed to have parts, but he seems to run hot and cold as the mood takes him. Anyhow, I have heard of doing the JB weld trick, but using a material that was described as "titanium putty". Seems like JB with a better binder and different filler metal. Done by professional rebuilders, on halfnuts yet. You can try JB, or get the other stuff from J&L Industrial etc, etc. ($$$) maybe some clean cast iron filings mixed in would stiffen JB up a bit, I tried it on another item and it seemed to work. Grease up the leadscrew and clean the halfnut lever like crazy before you do it. You might even try boiling it in water for a while, as the cast iron soaks up oil deep in the pores and that is poison to adhesives. Chatter is the big issue with the 109 because it is so light built. A follower rest is perfect. There are plans for one in the AAdocs 2 file in the metalworking dropbox, which I forget right now how to get to. Clamps onto the crosslide ways to hold it. Oil the daylights out of the rest fingers and it won't be too bad. And the smoother the fingers are the less they mark the surface. $100 is the right type of price, its what I paid, and I got a faceplate but no chuck. Hey, some people have paid up to $500 for the same thing. Jerry ------- Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 10:30:22 EDT From: ccnn51x~xxaol.com Subject: Re: Green Model 109.2127 In a message dated 9/25/00, jtiersx~xxworldinter.net writes: < Anyhow, I have heard of doing the JB weld trick, but using a material that was described as "titanium putty". Seems like JB with a better binder and different filler metal. Done by professional rebuilders, on halfnuts yet. You can try JB, or get the other stuff from J&L Industrial etc, etc. ($$$) maybe some clean cast iron filings mixed in would stiffen JB up a bit, I tried it on another item and it seemed to work. Grease up the leadscrew and clean the halfnut lever like crazy before you do it. You might even try boiling it in water for a while, as the cast iron soaks up oil deep in the pores and that is poison to adhesives.>> Iron filings mixed with JB Weld? Might work. Need to be clean alright; not from around a grinding wheel. Maybe from use of a real fine file. I wouldn't use grease on the leadscrew; wipe really good and then wipe really well with wax paper. Grease can contaminate the JB. Yes, boil the halfnut with a little acid cleaner. But are you sure this is necessary? If you use a spring weight scale on the close lever for the halfnuts and apply an extra 2 pounds after it is closed, will it be tight on the leadscrew? If so the problem may be the spring and ball bearing. Often they are worn and the spring is not strong enough. To replace, open the halfnuts, and take off the handwheel on the right end of the leadscrew. File off the burr from the setscrew and push the leadscrew to the left. Loosen the four front screws for the front gibbs and remove the back gibb from the carriage. Lift off the carriage. When you flip the lever for the halfnuts the other way the ballbearing and spring will fire out so have it pointed down in a big plastic pail. Get a new ballbearing and spring (stiffer than before) that just enter the hole (got mine from ACE Hardware). Make sure the spring is ground flat at the ends and remove any sharp edges. Clark Nicholas ------- Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2000 02:39:08 -0000 From: "Steven Christmann" Subject: Re: Carriage Clearance Hi Dale: Actually, I didn't pay a dime for my regrind (I called in a favor from a supplier at work). If I were to buy this service, however, it shouldn't be more than $25 for a top grind, and another $10-$15 to 'dust' the positive edge for squareness. Careful though - the ways on these lathes are thin to start with - you wouldn't want to remove much more than .005"-.010" If you need, I can give you numbers for several good grind houses in the Detroit area. I noticed that mine (which had taken to sagging in the middle from carriage weight and an improper stand) runs very true now - about .0003" max flat and coplanar across the entire bed length. It might also help if you regrind the bottom mating surface of the headstock parallel to the bearing bores, and the bottom surface of the tailstock - this way you won't experience any runout later on. I also set my headstock-tailstock on a surface plate and set the heights together. If you want, I can e-mail you the drawings for a jig that I made up to hold the headstock upside down for grinding. I think Atlas did a pretty sloppy fitting job on these lathes originally. Hope that helps, Steve ------- Date: Sat, 18 Nov 2000 08:36:14 -0600 (CST) From: dswrx~xxwebtv.net Subject: Leveling a lathe... The 'Lathe Bulletin 101.07-3" discusses the reasons and methods of leveling a lathe bed. Leveling, according to the bulletin means; The bed ways must be parallel with themselves. Absolutely level bed is essential for accurate lathe work. The bulletin warns that a twisted bed is also harmful to the lathe. The best way to do this is make the bed ways level to the world. A drawing shows a 6" Atlas lathe, sans the carriage and tail stock. (i know this is a 6" as it only has 1 mounting bolt hole on the right hand bed foundation. (facing the lathe) On the bed are 4 machinist's levels. (of course, this is only showing the positions 1 level is positioned for this test.) The positions shown are across the bed close to the headstock, parallel to the bed ways near the center of the bed, and across the ways near the right hand end of the bed. This level is a precision machinist's spirit level, such as a L.S. Starrett No. 96. A sensitive level should move the bubble about 1/8" when a .003 shim is placed one end of the level. Shims (1" x 4"), metal or cardboard, should be placed between the bench top and foundation around the bolts on the headstock end. (a notch to accommodate the bolt is shown .) Shims are placed on either side of the bolt on the tailstock end. These shims should be added/removed to achieve level. I'm sorry that I can't post a picture of the page, but my WebTV (c) Microsoft won't let me do that! (boo-hoo, baby!) Leo ------- (Atlas E-group files) Leo, I posted a couple of pages out of the manual for you. Jus tryin' to help out.... Bill C. Files: "Clemens's Iron Stuff" ------- Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2000 10:24:44 -0600 From: Subject: Re: 6-18 [atlas_craftsman] > On 19 Nov 2000, Den & Betty Haas wrote: > > I have a 6-18 Atlas that I took out of the crate from the factory > > in 1977. Been lurking on this list & the serial nos. I have don't > > seem to jibe with what I see. Here are the specs on what I have. > > SN 3950 Mod. No. 002328 Number on the bearing that I can see on > > the chuck end of the headstock is NTN 620SLU. This lathe came with a > > square, plastic gear cover that has since been melted in a fire. It > > came with a Dayton Mod. 5K261B, 1/3 hp motor. 1725 rpm, 115v. > > Can anybody enlighten me as to what I have & when it was made? > > Thanks Den Den & Betty Haas Nov. 25, 2000 From: "Marty Escarcega" > You have what appears to be one of the last incarnations of the > lathe before it was discontinued by Clausing. Our group still > supports it, but admittedly most everyone has one of the older > machines. Use it and enjoy it, if we can answer any questions at > all, please feel free to ask. Marty, Moderator Atlas_Craftsman Group I saw your post on the model 3950. Advertised dimensions are 6 x 19 inches, with 1-10 thread headstock spindle. I have the same model. It was made between 1977 and 1980. this the next to the last model. The last model was painted blue and included an all-metric version, very rare now. NTN is still in business. You can cross-reference the bearing number if you need replacements. Get on www.thomasregister.com to track them down (free). Dayton is now owned by W.W. Grainger, a huge supply firm. You may be able to cross reference the motor if you need replacement. Grainger website can be hunted up. Atlas sold a variety of motors, mine is by Westinghouse Electric. > >First thing is contact Clausing Service Center to get in touch with Technical Support. Ph 219-533-0371, e-mail joldsx~xxclausing-industrial.com Tell them what happened and get PRINTED information on what to do (FAX or Mail). Get prices on replacement parts and accessories (free!), like the melted cover. If parts are discontinued, contact Technical Support for substitute sources or dimensioned drawings so you can make your own parts. Also, ask Technical Support to get wiring diagrams for hooking up the reversing drum switch Clausing sells for the motors. The diagram needs to be specific for your motor. The switch is a Furnas Electric Style A-14. I think Furnas is still in business, check with them if needed. Contact through thomasregister site. > Important tips, a rigid base or bench with plenty of width is advisable, with swiveling leveling feet on each leg. If the base is narrow, go with heavy gage steel or cast iron machine bases. Tighten screws on lathe bed feet in small increments while watching the precision level bubble. The lathe bed can be tension sensitive. Shims alone without checking tension is not successful. >Use way lubricant, instead of ordinary motor oil on bedways, side gib,dovetail surfaces, and clamps of carriage. It will eliminate "chatter and "stick slip" when threading or power feeding. A drop or two on the carriage gear contacting the leadscrew really smooths things up. Use the minimum, because the lube is very sticky. Mobil Oil makes "Vactra" brand in a 1 gal. and 5 gal. sizes. Other makers make similar way lube products. >If possible, get the threading gearsette accessories. One set will let you make coarse thrteads down to 5 threads per inch. An important consideration if you need to make parts for larger size lathes. Even the expensive Myford 7x19 lathe from England can't do this!! E-mail me if your need more tips on this lathe. James Sprott ------- Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2000 16:19:47 -0000 From: "William Clemens" Subject: Re: new owner "Franke, Jim" wrote: >Hi, I'm Jim. I am new to this group. >I just recently purchased a 6" atlas lathe and am very excited about >getting it up and running. I had spent approximately 2 1/2 years building >one of the Gingery home made lathes and it works well, but I have gotten a >little frustrated with it. It requires quite a bit of attention for every >operation and is not always reliable or predictable. I was very lucky >and found this atlas lathe for a modest price compared to what they were >selling for on ebay. Plus it already has thread cutting capability and I >would have to build the Gingery miller and dividing head in order to make >change gears for my home made lathe. Enough back ground I guess. >In cleaning up and inspecting this atlas lathe I did find something that I >hope someone out there can help me with. The carriage seems to move less >than smoothly when operated with the hand wheel. It appears that the rack >attached to the lathe bed may have some damage to it in a few spots. I >attempted to remove it by removing the retaining screws but there appear >to be 2 pins, 1 at either end that that also secure it. I was afraid to >pry on the rack to losen it for fear of bending it. My question then is, >are these 2 pins just alignment pins or are they screws that feed from the >inner side of bed, and what is the best way to remove the rack so I can >replace it or repair it? Thanks. Jim Jim, The older atlas machines used taper pins for alignment and for a greater shear proof attachment of the rack to the ways. An old trick was to turn the rack end for end to bring the outer portion into use close to the headstock where most of the work is done, but I don't think you can do that with the 6" machine( I'm going to check mine to see for sure). You should be able to pry it loose (evenly) with a very small heel type pry bar, or well placed heel blocks close to the rack. It is mild steel, so you may be able to do some touch up to it...You should remove the saddle to do this you know. Bill C. ------- >> I saw your post on the 6 inch Atlas lathe. I had a similar problem with my 3950 model., only in one spot near the headstock. Before prying loose the rack, try this quick fix! One or 2 drops of way lubricant on the carriage gear that engages the rack. It should slide right over the trouble spots! I used "Vactra" brand from Mobil Oil. There are similar way lubricants from other makers that will do the job. Try the Travers catalog at www.travers.com or local industial oil and lube supply firms in your area. If the problems persist, contact Clausing Service Center and ask for Technical Support. Give lathe model and serial number and get specific instructions on how to fix the problem. Design changes in my model show staked in pins, not taper pins holding the rack to the bed casting. No prying without problems on my model! To avoid expensive damage, check with Technical Support first, before prying on anything! James Sprott << ------- Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2000 21:50:15 -0500 From: A J Palik Subject: Lathe Bed Wear This is a letter I wrote about a year ago. It may be of help to others. I was having trouble turning a 1" steel shaft in my 10"x 24" Atlas lathe.I am new to lathes and wanted to check out my lathe and see if it was turning a taper or was running true.The steel was an old piece of line shaft.It isn't very hard so I chucked it up in my 4 jaw chuck and set the live centre in the tail stock.Starting at the tailstock and turning towards the headstock all was going well until I got about 4" down the shaft--the shaft is 16" long.The curls were rolling off the steel tool bit as pretty as can be and slowly but surely the tool bit started to chatter. The further I turned the shaft the worse the chat- tering got. I tried everything ,different tool bits, carbide bits, different turning speeds, heavy cuts, fine cuts. Nothing helped. Now mind you that this Atlas is an old one and well used.I tightened the saddle gibs near the headstock but found that the bed was worn and had to lossen the gibs so the saddle would run the full lenght of the bed.I resnugged the gibs near the tail stock.The chattering didn't get any better.I have read that a lathe bed must be trued up by scraping,something very few master so that was out.Me being a cheap old fart took matters into my own hands and got out my files.I selected a very fine cut file and my trusty old file card.I tightened the saddle gibs near the headstock and slowly slid the file down the sides of the ways, taking light cuts on both sides of the ways(front and back). After every stroke of the file I cleaned the teeth of the file with the file card. Every few minutes I checked my progress by wiping the ways off,lubing them with oil and running the saddle down the bed.Slowly but surely the saddle would travel futher and futher down the lenght of the bed.After about an hour and a half I got the ways true and now it was time to test out my work. I now have a lathe that will cut a 16" shaft to within .001" from tailstock to headstock and no chatter.Maybe I was lucky with this method but thought I would share my ways trueing method in case it could help others. ------- Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2000 22:01:24 EST From: loon432x~xxaol.com Subject: Newbe (sort of) This is my first posting to the group, but I've been lurking for about a year now. I have an Atlas model 618, serial # 025953. It was in pretty bad shape when I aquired it. The bed was slightly warped and someone had beat on the ways with a large file. There were no chucks. The quill lock for the tailstock was missing. The compound and crossfeed handles were broken. Plus the carriage feed gear didn't mesh correctly with the rack, so it tended to top the teeth off of even a new pinion. It did have a face plate, change gears, wrench, and a few spare parts including a new crossfeed screw and nut and set of half nuts. And the price was right--it was given to me after asking the right questions. You wouldn't recognize it now. I have rebuilt and repainted it. I had to machine the ways to correct the warped area and remove the file dents (about .015 off the top and .005 off the sides). All 4 surfaces of both ways were machined in one setup. The carriage was belled about .003 so that was machined out and it was also corrected for the new thickness of the ways. The compound gib did not seat correctly so the dovetail was machined also. The mounting holes for the carriage gearing were bored off center and bushed to move the gearing into correct mesh with the rack (on a Sherline 2000 mill believe it or not). I made a new tailstock quill lock with radiused contact surfaces instead of chamfered. New handles were made from stainless steel. Every mating surface (including gibs) has been scraped in and the lathe now meets tool room lathe specs. I got origional Pratt Bernard 3 and 4 jaw chucks from Kitts Supply when they still had them. The 4 jaw, which was 3/4-16, had to be bored and rethreaded to 1-10. This was done by mounting the chuck on the face plate with it's own jaws and indicating it in after making an exact copy of the spindle threads to check it with. I would highly reccommend the book MACHINE TOOL RECONDITIONING by Edward F. Connelly. It tells you how to scrape and make scrapers and has step by step proceedures for rebuilding a lathe, milling machine, and grinding machine. It is well worth what ever price you pay for it. ------- Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 20:19:28 -0500 From: "ebower" Subject: Re: Sears/AA Lead / crossslide screw threads? Mike, The leadscrew for the AA is the same as the Atlas 6". The thread is 1/2-16 ACME RH Stub. I have chased these in the past. I have also made a replacement for my 6" Atlas. I have both lathes. If you want to buy a leadscrew, contact Clausing and ask the price of the 3950-16 screw collar assembly. You will have to shorten the leadscrew (on the bearing end) because the Atlas 6" is approximately 24" long. I had special acme cutters made to chase these threads. They must be done on a lathe other than the AA. Earl ------- Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2000 00:41:07 -0000 From: "Tim Clarke" Subject: LEVELING, c'mon you guys! Some time back, there was an article in H.S.M. about setting up your lathe. The author said a few thing that really made sense, one being that on small, flexible bench lathes, the load applied during cutting can't be ignored. Another was that being dead nuts level isn't near as important as removing twist. What I did after reading the article, was to level with my machinist level, and it ain't a master precision. Then I made a upright clamped to the toolholder about 2 feel tall. From this I hung a homemade plumb bob. I laid a steel scale underneath held to the crosslide with a magnet. Then, by cranking the carriage to the extreme limits of it's travel, I discovered I had a twist in my bed. I cut shims from sheel metal, tin foil, and plastic from the recycle box. I guess the whole effort lasted about an hour. After leveling, I adjusted the tailstock as described in a couple of previous posts. There is little need to spend a bunch of your beer and bait money on something you'll use infrequently and don't really need. There is usually a way around any rule chiseled in stone, and it has always amazed me how simple it seems when someone tells me. Many thanks to the now forgotten old geezer who shared this with me, and I hope that this works for you as well as it has for me. Regards, Tim in Oregon ------- Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2000 14:35:47 -0500 From: Jude Miller Subject: Re: LEVELING, c'mon you guys! Jim Irwin wrote: > 'Taint that hard, pard. To work best, a machine has to be straight and > square with itself according to its design. To get it to that ideal > condition, you have to have some reference point. You could use the > north star just as well. But most folks find it easiest to use > Mother Earth's force of gravity as a semi-permanent > reference. The instrument of choice for this is a level. > However, one can use the > 2ft long plumb-bob and accurate scale method quite nicely. > 0.005 x 2 ft is 0.010...certainly easy enough to see with a good > scale (I'd need a magnifier, though!). > My level is an English 6 incher divided to 0.005in per ft. > Master levels divide to 0.0005. How much precision do you want? > One would drive himself crazy trying > to level to 0.0005 using shims, as they are much thicker than this. > I level the bench my lathe is mounted to. The bench is 2 1/2 ft deep > and 4 ft wide. With my level I can detect a sheet of paper under > any mount foot. Best regards, Jim Irwin Yeah, but if you want to turn to within a thou, you need less than 0.0005 (1/2 of 0.001 inch) variation in the tool position as you move along the bed. On a 12 inch lathe, that corresponds to roughly the same amount of twist in the bed. If the headstock end of the bed is level (front-to-back, not along the length of the bed), then the tailstock end must be level within +/- 1/2 thou per six inches. This is almost as close as you can measure with a master precision level. If you level with a coarser level, you can easily have several thou of twist in the bed, meaning you will turn a taper of up to twice that. There is another method, called Rollie's Dad's method, which doesn't use a level. I've included it here as text. RDM probably doesn't work as well as a really good level, but it doesn't require one either. This is one of several descriptions I found on the 'Net. Best, Jude Miller ------- Rollie's Dad's Method of Lathe Alignment Copyright 1997 by New England Model Engineering Society. What you need: A round bar The bar length should be about 1/3 to 2/3 the bed length. The bar must be of one diameter along most or all of its length. The bar does not have to be completely straight. Since Rollie has a car repair shop, he uses the shafts from junked shocks and struts. A dial indicator The end of the measuring rod should be flat. A means of mounting the indicator on the cross-slide. To do a vertical alignment the mount must be adjustable. A chuck of any type to hold the bar. Runout in the chuck is not a problem (for the same reason that a slight bend in the rod is not a problem). What you DON'T need A tailstock, perfectly straight bar, a collet or precision chuck or any tool bits. Applying the method (Horizontal Alignment) 1. Put the bar in the chuck. 2. Mount the dial indicator on the cross-slide at the center height of the lathe. 3. With the carrige near the chuck end, adjust the cross-slide so that the indicator reads a convienient "zero" value like 0.100 4. Turning the lathe by hand, adjust the cross-slide so that whatever runout you have is equal on both sides of your "zero" (say .105, .095). 5. Pull the indicator's measuring rod back by hand to clear any irregularities and move the carrige to the other end of the bar. 6. If the runout is not also centered there (say .110, .098) then your lathe is twisted and a foot should be shimmed. 7. Repeat from step 4 until runout at both ends is evenly divided on either side of your "zero". Applying the method (Vertical Alignment) 1. Put the bar in the chuck. 2. Mount the dial indicator on the carridge so that it is directly above the center line of the spindle. 3. With the carrige near the chuck end, adjust the indicator mount so that the indicator reads a convienient "zero" value like 0.100 4. Turning the lathe by hand, adjust the indicator mount so that whatever runout you have is equal on both sides of your "zero" (say .105, .095). 5. Pull the indicator's measuring rod back by hand to clear any irregularities and move the carriage to the other end of the bar. 6. If the runout is not also centered there (say .110, .098) then your lathe is twisted and a foot should be shimmed. 7. Repeat from step 4 until runout at both ends is evenly divided on either side of your "zero". Why This Method Works When the runout is evenly divided, at the zero point the runout is entirely in the vertical plane and the side of the bar is exactly one bar radius from the turning axis of the spindle. If the runout is evenly divided at both ends of the bar, the spindle is rotating in a plane parallel to the ways. Common Error Some people will turn the lathe to the point where the indicator reads "zero" and then move the carridge down to the other end to see if it still reads "zero". That method will only work if your bar is known to be perfectly straight. Do not confuse that method with this one. I learned all this from a fellow member of the New England Model Engineering Society. Join us the first Thursday of every month at the Charles River Museum of Industry in Waltham, Mass. ------- Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2000 17:32:41 -0500 From: Jude Miller Subject: Re: Re: LEVELING, c'mon you guys! cdhintonx~xxmsn.com wrote: > If the lathe is off in the vertical- doesn't this indicate that the > lathe is sway backed or humped back? And how would shimming a foot > correct this? Craig If the lathe has a hump or a sag in the bed, then the level will read differently if placed on the long axis of the lathe at the headstock and tailstock ends. This is less serious than twist, since the cutting radius is little changed by vertical misalignment. A vertical error of 5 thou on a workpiece 0.5 inches in diameter increases the diameter by about .0001 [this figure corrected per following follow-up e-mail from Jude Miller]. The same error horizontally changes the diameter by 10 thou. Depending on the feet, they may be shimmed under the sides and the end to remove misalignment. The idea is to shim e.g. the middle of the far end of the tailstock foot higher than the part toward the headstock to decrease hump, lower for sag. Best, Jude Miller ------- Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2000 17:38:58 -0500 From: Jude Miller Subject: Re: Re: LEVELING, c'mon you guys! Slipped a decimal place there. A vertical error of 5 thou on a 1/2 inch workpiece changes diameter by only about a tenth (0.0001 inch). The horizontal error is correct at 10 thou. Best, Jude Miller ------- Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2000 20:05:23 EST From: catboat15x~xxaol.com Subject: Re: LEVELING, c'mon you guys! In a message 12/22/00, jmreidx~xxu.washington.edu writes: >The point of levelling is not just to do it on the length of the bed, >but also to check for twist by using the level crosswise at both ends. On my 12X48 Craftsman/Atlas there are only three mounting holes, two under the head stock and only one in the middle at the tail stock end. Never worried too much about this, and I remember some article in an old Model Engineering magazine that recomended this type of mounting for a Myford of about the same dimensions. The method recomended there was to bolt the headstock end down tight, but leave the third mounting at the tailstock a little slack, just enough to keep the lathe from walking off the bench. So that is the way mounted my lathe. John Meacham ------- Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2001 00:28:29 -0600 From: Jon Elson Subject: Re: Carriage adjustment? mfb1fyfbx~xxteisprint.com wrote: > I need to adjust the Carriage (it moves between the head stock & tail > stock, with the long lead screw) The cross slide mounts on top of > it? The Carriage, cocks back& forth, when not connected to the lead > screw? When I take a cut along the lenght of a 3/4" dia of Aluminum, > the same amount of materical is remove over the lenght of the cut. > Can only find ONE setscrew to adjust (on the back side, the side W/O > the handle, for moving. On the tail stock side of the carriage. The gibs nobody knows about are UNDER the carriage, and prevent it from lifting up from the bed. There are two iron (I think) plates held on with 2 screws each. Under part of each plate are laminated shims. Sometimes people take these apart and get the shims caught on the screws, causing the shims to wrinkle and prevent the plates from riding close to the bottom of the ways. On the back of the carriage there should be 4 gib adjusting screws to adjust front-back free play of the carriage. You have to set this for the LEAST worn part of the bed, or it will cause binding when it gets to the least worn part. There should also be 4 gib adjusting screws on the right side of the upper part of the cross slide casting. I hope this info helps. this info should apply to either 10 or 12" Atlas or Atlas/Craftsman lathes. > Cannot remove the carriage from the lathe, W/O disassembling the > lever to engage the lead screw? Hope this explains it, better? To remove the whole carriage, there are several ways to go. You can disassemble the half-nuts, remove the bottom gibs and lift straight off. You can remove the right-end bracket for the leadscrew and pull the leadscrew straight out to the right (if you have enough room over there). Again, you can now lift straight off after removing bottom gibs. Or, you can remove the two large Phillips-head screws in the top of the carriage, disconnecting the apron from the carriage. Then, remove bottom gibs and lift. It depends on what you want to look at as to which is the desired method. Jon ------- Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 06:24:42 -0000 From: hhrjx~xxhome.com Subject: Re: Swapping Lead screw end for end "Jerry Halcomb" wrote: >>Someone on the list said his leadscrew was swapped on his 10". As far as I can tell on my 3983 model atlas 12" it can't be done. The right hand end is smaller than the left end so unless metal can be added I don't see how. I am open to suggestions rather than spending $284.00 on a new lead screw. Jerry << Jerry, adding metal to your leadscrew shouldn't be a problem if you have the capability to heliarc weld. I've used this several times in the past on shafting and dies. I don't know the difference in diameter between the ends but if it's not too great you might try metal spray to add material. I had a worn fire pump shaft sprayed and then turned to the original diamenter, worked great. Cost can rival that of new parts however. Ron Jones ------- Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 21:42:45 -0800 From: escarcegax~xxhome.com Subject: FORW: Lathe bed milling Guys, I know this fellow. If any of you have been contemplating a bed regrind of your Atlas_Craftsman lathe beds contact him. My money says he'll shoot a better price on these beds because they are flat and not prismatic. If anyone contacts him, report back as to price. IF anyone has him do a bed, let us know how it went. Marty Found this in rec.crafts.metalworking: == BEGIN forwarded message == Subject: Lathe bed milling From: Michael Morgan <40pointsx~xxhome.com> Newsgroups: rec.crafts.metalworking This is a sales pitch so quickly avert your eyes! If you have an old lathe and are interested in scraping it to restore the alignment of the beast, you have no doubt found that the hardest part is the bed. Professional rebuilders almost never scrape the bed of a lathe except for final touch up. We machine or grind them. If you would like your lathe bed machined please let me know. I have the machine that can do it and do it cheap. OK so I think it's cheap, you may think I am a highway man. How cheap is cheap, how about a 10X60" South Bend with soft ways for $300.00 One note: I can only do this for individuals. Companies must hire my company for this work, but if you have a lathe in your garage that needs some TLC now is the time! Thanks and all of those who looked away to avoid the sales pitch may now look back again. Mike ------- Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 11:21:24 -0500 From: Jude Miller Subject: Re: FORW: Lathe bed milling escarcegax~xxhome.com wrote: > I know this fellow. If any of you have been contemplating a bed regrind > of your Atlas_Craftsman lathe beds contact him. My money says he'll shoot > a better price on these beds because they are flat and not prismatic. If > anyone contacts him, report back as to price. IF anyone has him do a bed, > let us know how it went. I assume he's talking about milling the bed rather than grinding it? Does this give a smooth enough finish for a lathe bed? He quoted me $180 for a 6 x 18 bed (i.e. 30 inch unhardened bed with flat ways). Best, Jude Miller ------- Date: Sat, 04 Nov 2000 08:24:40 -0500 From: Ronald Thibault Subject: Re: What to look for when buying lathe If you have a micrometer or dial caliper, measure the bed ways as follows: 1. Across the vertical surfaces of both the front and back ways. 2. Distance between the 2 inner vertical surfaces. 3. Thickness of ways at the front of the front way, and the back of the back way. 4. distance from the top of the ways to the sliding surface of the carriage. Do this at several locations along the bed. The most important measurements are the width of the ways. Any wear here will directly affect the ability to turn a constant diameter piece. The thickness is not nearly as important, but the more uniform the better. The distance from the way to the sliding surface of the carriage, is an indicator of the wear between the two, excessive wear means the bed is probably also shot. The distance between the inner vertical surfaces indicates whether the tailstock will be accurate in its' positioning. Generally though even a badly worn bed will still be good here. The tailstock gets moved orders of magnitude less than the carriage. A couple thousandths wear between the vertical surfaces of the bed, is not too bad. You can compensate for this, with some time turning on that lathe. Much more than this though, should cause serious thought about the purchase. In general look at the sliding surfaces of the rest of the lathe. The more the original grinding marks show, the better. The top of the bed was originally ground smooth, but the rest of the surfaces have a hash mark look (look at the inner way vertical surfaces, for an example). Good luck with your inspection! Ron Thibault ------- Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 13:30:18 -0500 From: Richard Meredith Subject: New acme thread lead screws I have been a non participating member of this group for some time. I read each post with interest, and have picked up a great deal of information. Several times people have asked about sources for new lead screws. I have dealt with a small firm that specializes in Acme thread stock and nuts in Two Rivers WI for many years with good results. They do not cut or machine the material, but do sell UPS able lengths of just about any Acme thread. The firm is: Green Bay Manufacturing 2617 18th Street Two Rivers, WI 54241 Phone: (920) 793-2411 They do not have an internet presence that I know of, so you will have to contact them by phone or mail. I hope this will help, and Good Luck! ------- Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 19:11:48 -0800 From: "John Johnson" Subject: Interesting Pattern I am the second owner of a Craftsman 12x36 lathe with cabinet stand (M/N 101.28990, S/N 108009) that I have had for about three years now. The first owner bought it new from Sears about 1975. Yesterday while turning the axles of my live steam Shay, I noticed an interesting pattern that repeated along the cut every 1/8". I figure that it is related to the lead screw somehow. It appears to be some kind of light wave or disruption to the otherwise smooth cut. I was turning steel about 1.250" diameter down to 1.125" diameter. Using a carbide insert cutting tool and a quick change (phase II) type tool post taking off about .015" at a time. I was using the slowest feed rate available with the quick change gearbox (.0042" per rev). The cut was about 6" long. The axle was held on one end by the 3-jaw chuck and with a live center on the other end. It is not real objectionable and will get covered by paint, but I was wondering if this means I have some- thing worn out. I did replace the half nuts about two years ago so I know they are in relatively good shape. The lead screw looks fine, but maybe it has a bend in it that might be binding something some where? I have not explored the QC box to see if there is anything in there that looks wrong. Any ideas? John D.L. Johnson Chico, California www.LocoGear.com ------- Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 22:53:16 -0500 From: "Wayne" Subject: Re: Interesting Pattern John , I have sometimes noticed a swirling pattern on short and longer turns on my 12x42. I have always thought is was in the mfg. process of the metal I was turning? I found today that my headstock bearings were a little loose, so I have tightened them up, but have yet to turn any of the same stock to see if that was it. Try this... remove the chuck and try to wiggle the head/main shaft. If you can feel a slop, work on the bearings. It is a simple procedure and I'm glad i caught mine .Good luck and keep us posted. Wayne(rice)Burner ------- Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 22:07:56 -0600 From: "J Tiers" Subject: Re: Interesting Pattern Possibly you have a slightly loose carriage, and the lead screw usually holds it down except at one point of its revolution, maybe a slight bend and that is the high spot. If it looks like a phonograph record, ir is probably a chatter mark, even if you don't hear or feel a chatter. You should be able to adjust the gibs, unless you have a worn spot on the bed. Try slathering some extra way oil on so it is under the carriage before the next such cut, and see if that helps. If so, probably looseness. Jerry ------- Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 00:12:47 EST From: catboat15x~xxaol.com Subject: Re: Interesting Pattern jjohnsonx~xxlocogear.com writes: > , I noticed an interesting pattern that repeated along the cut every 1/8 If the pattern looks like a rope or something similar it is chatter doing that. Try changing feeds, speeds etc. Once it starts it is sure hard to get it to stop what I call roping. John Meacham High Desert of California, Palmdale, Littlerock. ------- Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 00:34:16 -0600 From: Jon Elson Subject: Re: Interesting Pattern Yup. They all do it! Well, pretty much, anyway. It mostly shows up when making the final finish cut. I usually only see it when making a fine cut with a toolpost grinder. There are a couple of things you can do about it. First, run the lathe with the screw driven, but the carriage half nuts open, and look for an orbiting of the leadscrew. Some of them are bent, or have a little sag in them. This will cause the carriage to rock a little bit. If the screw runs true, then clean the threads and the key slot carefully with a rag or soft tool like a screwdriver blade, to dig all the chips out of there. Lube the screw well and try again, with the half nuts engaged. If the screw appears to move around, rather than running true, you should take the crossfeed drive and the halfnuts apart and clean and relube them. Swarf in the halfnuts and crossfeed drive can force the screw to move around and exert force on the carriage. Finally, if the carriage is loose in either the forward/back or up/down directions, a small pressure from the leadscrew can make it wobble on the bed, disturbing the trueness of the cut. Most likely not the QC box, unless the screw has something jammed between it and the collar that it fits into, or some other interference is binding the leadscrew so it doesn't run true. That is possible, though. You would see the screw 'orbiting' if this is the case. Jon ------- Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 09:17:48 -0800 From: Frank Evan Perdicaro Subject: Waves... My 10" Atlas has a worn 3-jaw chuck, a loose carriage, a heavily worn bed and a bent leadscrew, so I know why it does not make mirror finish parts. But keep this in mind. The leadscrew is being driven by straight-cut gears. The rotary motion through a straight-cut geartrain is not linear! You will never get smooth motion of the leadscrew with the gears these lathes come with. Sure, the variance is small but it never goes to zero. ------- Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 13:27:16 -0600 From: Jon Elson Subject: Re: Interesting Pattern Ah, you must have babbit bearings, then. On the Timken bearing lathes, the same tapered roller bearings handle both axial and radial loads. If your thrust bearing were rough, you would be able to feel it when turning the spindle manually. I think it is pretty hard for the babbit bearing to develop roughness this way, as the rotation of the lathe would smooth it off pretty quickly. It could be some vibration from the gear train that drives the leadscrew. But, it could also be tool vibration, or possible deflection of the workpiece. That is a common problem. Are you using a sharp-pointed tool, or does it take a wide cut? If the cut is too wide, it will cause vibration on these lighter lathes. Jon ------- Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 16:52:06 -0600 From: Jon Elson Subject: Re: Interesting Pattern Jude Miller wrote: > Oilite spindle bearings, ball thrust bearing. The spindle > turns smoothly, the roughness is noticeably if I load the > thrust bearing by pushing the spindle toward the headstock as I turn. Ahh, I thought you had mentioned it was a 10" Atlas, but this is the 6". If the bearings are bad, then you need to replace them. A small ball thrust bearing is not a very expensive item. > I've should probably replace it, but I don't want to remove > the spindle again. Last time around, I was in too much of > a hurry to get the lathe running to wait for the replacement. Well, if you are not happy with the results, then I think you need to replace that bearing. It should not be a big job. Jon ------- Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2001 01:31:57 EST From: sleykinx~xxaol.com Subject: Re: Digest Number 420 This may sound strange but, are your ways well oiled? A good way oil makes a big difference in that type phenomenon. Attribute it to "sticktion" .. the carriage is supposed to ride on a film of oil and if the oil isn't tough enough or enough of it there you can get some strange patterens ... the kind you can see but can't feel/measure (with any of my measuring sticks anyway). Good luck Glenn ------- Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2001 08:23:47 -0800 From: "John Johnson" Subject: Re: Interesting Pattern Thanks to all who responded to my post. I think the collective wisdom is a slightly bent lead screw and loose gibs causing the carriage to rock a bit making the rope like pattern. I'll have to spend some time this weekend checking it out. Thanks, John D.L. Johnson www.LocoGear.com ------- Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2001 22:38:59 -0800 From: "Larry Bailey" Subject: Re: Eliminating Carriage Slop >From: airxxxwolfx~xxyahoo.com >On my 6" 101.07301 lathe, the backside of the carriage has some >vertical play. I checked it out and found that the upper gib >was a little wider than the thickness of the way, and that there >was a gap of a few thousanths between the bottom gib and the >underside of the way. I carefully filed the bottom edge of the >upper gib until it fit perfectly against the edge of the way >without protruding past the bottom edge of the way. This enabled >the bottom gib to move closer to the underside of the way, but >not quite close enough. Using a dial indicator, I can pull up >on the carriage with the indicator reading .0025 of play. What >is the best way to remove this play? It looks to me that the >carriage would need to be milled a few thou where the bottom >gib bolts on, and then the gib shimmed to proper fit. Is this >the way to do it, or is there another way? Regards, Don Smith On my 12" there are brass shims in the 0.002-0.003" range to close this space. One uses the correct shims to fill the space while still allowing the carriage to travel smoothly. Check your parts diagrams. You probably need something similar. Larry ------- Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2001 08:06:51 -0500 From: "Trammell, Rex" Subject: RE: Eliminating Carriage Slop Yes, the six inch works the same way. These shims are easy to cut so you can make your own. The only limit on how well you can fit the carriage is bed wear. You set the shims so that the carriage is snug where the bed is not worn. The carriage will then be looser where the bed is worn thinner. Rex ------- Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2001 08:55:12 -0800 (PST) From: Don Smith Subject: RE: Eliminating Carriage Slop I think there`s a misunderstanding of the problem on my carriage. Adding shims will "increase" the slop in my carriage, and removing shims will "decrease" the slop in the carriage. In other words, the bottom plate that rides along the underside edge of the way, will be farther away if I add shims, creating more slop. The more shims you remove, the less slop you have in the carriage, because removing shims brings the bottom plate closer to the bed, while adding them moves the plate away from the bed. The problem is that I can`t get the bottom plate any closer to the bed because there are no more shims to remove Don... ------- Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2001 13:02:47 EST From: LADDERBARx~xxaol.com Subject: carriage play Look at the plates to see if there is any wear in it, if there is turn it over to the side that doesn't have any. (Take a stone to it to remove any burrs.) If play still exists look for wear on the bed rails or the carriage itself. Happy chip making. ------- Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2001 10:30:26 -0800 (PST) From: Don Smith Subject: Re: carriage play The plates are in perfect condition. As far as I can see, on my lathe the problem has to be either a worn bed, or a worn carriage. The only way I can see of correcting the problem without replacing the bed or carriage, is to mill a few thousanths off the bottom edge of the carriage where the bottom plate bolts on, and then just simply shim the plate to suit my needs, or make a special plate with a step on it. ------- Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2001 15:19:05 -0500 From: "Trammell, Rex" Subject: RE: carriage play You seem to understand how it all works but it still seems strange. The stack of shims is quite thick so the bed or the carriage would have to wear a lot in order to cause the condition you describe. If the bed is worn that much it will probably not be worn uniformly so achieving a snug fit from one end to the other will be hard. Also, since the bed only wears in the area where the carriage contacts, outer 3/8 inch or so, there would be a visible step showing the wear. If the wear is in the carriage itself milling off the bottom edge would fix the problem. The idea of a special plate with a step sounds good since you aren't risking anything very expensive to try it. Be sure to let us know how it turns out. Rex ------- Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2001 17:27:58 -0800 (PST) From: Don Smith Subject: RE: carriage play Hi Rex, Actually, my lathe, which I`ve only owned since last Tuesday, only had one shim between the plate and the carriage. This single shim was .0045 Anyway, I have solved the problem by milling the carriage where the plate bolts on. I only milled enough to suit my needs. The plate is now installed with no shims, and everything fits perfectly with no play, and the carriage moves smoothly. I could have milled some more metal off the carriage and shimmed the plate, so that as the bed wears, all I would have to do is re-adjust the thickness of the shims, but I decided to wait and do that next time. For now everything is fine the way it is. I measured the thickness of the bed, and starting from the tailstock end, and measuring about every 6 inches, I got readings of .430-.430-.429-.427 and .428 Since the .428 reading was right in front of the headstock, I was expecting a reading closer to .430 like the other end of the bed. My next job is to align the tailstock. Don... ------- Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2001 21:29:21 -0600 From: "J Tiers" Subject: Re: carriage play Poster wrote: >The only way I can see of correcting the problem without replacing the >bed or carriage, is to mill a few thousanths off the bottom edge of the >carriage where the bottom plate bolts on, and then just simply shim the >plate to suit my needs, or make a special plate with a step on it. I suppose you could turn the problem inside out, by putting a shim in, somewhat in the nature of a gib. That is, between the plate and the way. Then in order to get a reasonable thickness of the new "gib" , you can shim the plate out a bit. The "gib" can be secured several possible ways, including just bending up ears on the ends, or better, pinning it where a pin won't interfere. Jerry ------- Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2001 04:41:38 -0000 From: fyunchx~xxaol.com Subject: Re: Eliminating Carriage Slop HOw about milling a replacement bottom plate which is thinner where it attaches to the carriage, so that the other, unthinned part is higher than the bottom of the carriage? Then you can shim to fit. W.C. Gates ------- Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2001 00:17:27 -0600 From: Jon Elson Subject: Re: Eliminating Carriage Slop Right. I didn't reply before because I am only familiar with the 10 and 12" Atlas. Well, why is there so much clearance? Has the bed been reground, or has the carriage worn down that much? They usually gave a pretty generous allowance for wear, at least .015" to .020", at least on the 10". If the bottom gib has a groove worn where the bed rubs on it, you can flip the gib over and use the other side. If the bed is worn only in the most-used area, tightening the gib up too much will cause binding at either extreme end. If the bed is uniformly worn, or the carriage is worn down on the bottom, then you may have to either scrape down the lands the gibs attach to, or make a custom gib with a step in it. Other possibilities are to put shims under the carriage or wrap shims around the wear area on the gib, so that it constrains the carriage from lifting. Without knowing why the shim allowance is used up, it is hard to advise in a more specific way. Finally, you might want to find out what caused all this wear, and make sure you are using proper lubricants to prevent it as much as possible in the future. Jon ------- Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2001 14:05:58 EST From: anthrhodesx~xxaol.com Subject: Re: Eliminating Carriage Slop Don Smith wrote: << --- The problem is that I can`t get the bottom plate any closer to the bed because there are no more shims to remove. --- >> Sounds like maybe you have a late model carriage (for deeper ways) on an early model lathe. Firstly, you might try to find the correct carriage for your way depth measurement. Secondly, if you insist on trying to make this carriage work on your present lathe, measure the depth of your ways, then arrange to machine the matching part of the carriage to a few thou less than that measurement. When you reinstall it on the bed include a few shims to adjust the fit. In the future, presuming wear over a long period of time, you can then remove some of the shims to readjust the fit. That's the way the system is designed to function. Anthony Berkeley, Calif. ------- Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2001 09:16:07 -0600 From: "M K (Skip)Campbell Jr." Subject: Re: Dollar short, day late > I just wonder how to adjust the backgear/ backgear cover on it so > it don't rattle so much when I use it. I fixed a lathe I used to have that had that problem. I epoxied one of those little super magnets to the inside of the cover right at the edge so it locked to the headstock when closed. It worked like a champ. Regards, Skip Campbell Ft. Worth, TEXAS 12X36 101.28990 http://www.mkctools.com ------- Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2001 22:47:30 +0200 From: Jean-Claude Gerber Subject: Re: Dollar short, day late Hello John, I´m not boating and therefore could not use it as an anchor! A piece of rubber of about 1/8" thick with contact glue on it and on the rim of the backgear case; wait until it is dry to the hand; hammer on the rim so that it glues down well, cut it with a blade to leave just a strip running on the rim and rattling has gone. Don´t sleep in after that, the workshop ambiance does so much change. Jean-Claude ------- Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2001 19:50:09 -0500 From: Ronald Thibault Subject: Re: Back gear bushing replacment At 10:09 PM 3/27/01 -0800, you wrote: > The first time I used my 10" with the new half horse motor it > stripped about 15 teeth off the back gears. Grrr. Sobel sold me > some good used gears and I am in the process of replacing the junk > parts. One problem area is the bushings in the back gear sleeve, part > 10-248. Atlas lists the "SLEEVE with bushings" and I can see why. > There appears to be no good way to remove and replace the bushings > in this part. My bushings are clearly quite worn (like every other > part of the lathe) and need replacement. > Has anybody replaced these? If so, how? I use a Pilot Bearing Puller for these tasks. This puller is used to remove the bearing in a flywheel in manual auto transmissions. front end of the transmission shaft fits into these bearings. It resembles a 3 jaw pulley remover, but with the jaws arranged to open from the inside of the bearing and locking onto the blind end of the bearing. I originally bough mine for, of course, removing the bearing in my Jeep. I've used it on occasion for just such jobs on my machine tools. They are not terribly expensive, and come in handy. Mine has a range of up to 1 1/2" ID and 1 1/2" long bearings. On my Atlas I had to turn the OD of the replacement bearings slightly. When pressed in they were compressed enough to bind on the backgear shaft. Ron Thibault ------- Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2001 00:18:48 -0500 From: A J Palik Subject: Re: anyone know?? jchodzkox~xxhotmail.com wrote: > hey all, i'm missing the thread protector that goes under > the set screw for the spindle assembly far left (threaded collar) > part#9-124.whats it made of?would a little piece of leather work? > also can anyone tell me the thickness of washer#9-87that goes on top > of the brass crossfeed nut? is it brass?took almost three weeks > via ups to get the cross feed nut.it went to texas on its' way to > calif.i want my machine back together and think it would drive me > crazy to wait so long for a washer. this is all for craftsman/atlas > 100-28990 underneath drive.thanks for any info. john To protect the threads under the set screw I use a piece of lead shot---a small lead ball that is used in shot guns---another thing that will work is a small piece of lead off a wheel weight----use your pocket knife and cut it down to size ------- Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2001 15:55:00 -0000 From: rweersingx~xxworldnet.att.net Subject: Re: 9" threading chart --- In atlas_craftsmanx~xxy..., "Dana Diller" wrote: >>> I need help. I was given a nine inch 1936 Atlas 918 Utility lathe. It is in good shape and I have it adjusted and working well. I can't find a gear change/threading chart. I have a manual for a 10 inch, but the gear info does not seem to fit. It is also possible that I did not get all of the gears or other hardware. <<< Hello Dana, many of the parts in the 10" lathe are the same as the 9" lathe. You may be able to use the 10" chart on the 9" lathe if you use some 10" parts. It would be helpfull if you could find someone in your area with a 10" lathe so you could compare the gear setup with your lathe. You can easily modify the 10" gears to fit the 9" lathe as per an Atlas bulletin at http://www.atlas-press.com/tb_chgrmod.htm I have an early model 10" lathe which is suppose to be like the 9" and I can freely change parts with my later model 10"lathe. lots of luck Bob ------- Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2001 06:49:46 -0400 From: Ronald Thibault Subject: Re: Back lash >>What is the back lash which should be allowed from the handwheel. Mine is approx. 3/8" which seems to me far too large. When I dismantled the whole carriage, I could not find any trace of wear on the handwheel shaft, neither in the train of gears going up to the pinion rack. I looked at the parts with a magnifier and did not see any trace of wear. Somebody knows about it ? << The gear train for the carriage handwheel has slots in the bracket. Loosen the three screws and slide the assembly towards the rack. >>Dials on the compound Rest and Carriage Saddle. They seem to act as a distance ring to block the play towards the handles. Has somebody made modifications so that the dials are much larger (the original are for kids with good rabbit eyes) and turnable to start a job on the Zero-Mark ? Thanks a lot for any help Jean-Claude << Look on my Web site (address below) for a short article on how I made a new zero adjustable dial for my cross feed screw. Ron Thibault North Augusta, SC USA Builder Miinie #2 Captain R/C Combat Ship USS Arizona http://pages.prodigy.net/thibaultr/ ------- Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2001 19:47:39 EDT From: steamclassx~xxaol.com Subject: Re: Bed Milling/Grinding>>How Much $$$ ??? Jeff..I Just had my 54" bed re-ground on my 10" Atlas and it cost me 175.00. But they also did the sides and got it all squared up. Pretty good price I thought. The company is Brown & Covey of Kansas city. John ------- Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 00:31:14 -0500 From: Jon Elson Subject: Re: "Squeak" gstonex~xxTECHLINE.COM wrote: >> I have a 12" Atlas that is 25 years old. After finishing a project the other day I noticed that the spindle is noticeable stiffer than it used to be and it has a "squeak" in what sounds like the left bearing of the head stock. My plan is to replace both spindle bearings and the drive belt. My questions: 1. Is there anything else that I should do while I have it apart? 2. Does anyone have any "pearls of wisdom" about the disassembly/ reassembly? I do have the original parts list and the manual of lathe operation. << Before tearing the lathe down, make a disc that will fit into either end of the spindle, with a step at the right diameter to securely seat in either end. (That means, use something like 1/4" steel plate and put a shallow step on both sides. Also center drill in from both sides. You can then use a gear puller to drive the spindle out, and later, back in. Before pressing the spindle out, clean under the lip of the bearing inner races. I didn't do this once, and dirt was packed under the race (which is a LOT harder than the spindle) and it bound the bearing really well. I was able to back it off, clean, remove galling with a stone, and then try again. >> 3. Does anyone know the Timken part numbers so I could order the replacements before disassembly or is it wiser to have the parts in your hand when you go in? 4. The book doesn't show a cone for this bearing-does it come as a unit or are there separate bearings and cones? << Yup, you need 4 Timken parts, 2 inner races, and 2 outer. >> 5. I seem to have read somewhere that the lubrication of these bearings needs to be improved. Anyone have knowledge of this? << I'm using SAE #10, with a drip feed wick. If the wick gets gummed up or lost, you will get too little, or too much, lube flow. What you want is to fill the cup, and have it last several hours. The chip guards, if in good shape, trap a puddle of oil at the bottom of the bearings, so even when the cups run dry, there is still oil in the bearing. If the cups are badly gouged after several spindle pulls, you might do well to make new ones, or try to buy them. They are supposed to seat pretty well against the outer bearing bore to trap that puddle. Later Atlas manuals seem to now recommend SAE #20 oil, so I will have to switch grades. There are special machine spindle oils sold by the catalog machine tool supply places. Jon ------- Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2001 00:30:53 -0000 From: john.vanbrocklin2x~xxunisys.com Subject: Re: Help! Atlas 6" Hi..This is also my first post, but I have been lurking for awhile. Actually you are lucky both the nut and the screw are worn. I recently purchased the cross slide nut for the 6" and later had to order the matching screw since the older size thread is no longer made and the new nut didn't fit the old screw. Anyway, the old lathe is real tight now after replacing most wearables. John ------- Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2001 16:46:34 -0400 From: "Ebower" Subject: Re: Craftsman 6 in. Re-assembly Problems > When I finished re-assembling my Craftsman/Atlas 6x18 lathe, I noticed > some interference between the compound and cross slides. When I set > the compound at 30 degrees, as is my practice on larger lathes, the > cross feed handle hits the compound. The two slides only interfere > with one another when the crossfeed is in its last two inches of > travel toward the operator, but that does effecively reduce the > diameter of the workpiece to 3.5 or 4 inches. > I didn't pay that much attention to this part of the lathe when it was > together; I never used it before rebuilding it. Is this interference > normal or have I put something back together incorrectly? Do you set > the compound at more than 30 degrees for normal turning? I guess > threading is limited to smaller diameters, too. Thanks, Dave Dave, There are two possibilities that may be the problem. Whoever had your lathe before could have replaced the feed handle with a bigger one. The other possibility is that the spacer that should be between the carriage and dial is either missing or has been shortened up. My Atlas 6 x18 does not have your problem. My compound stays at 29 degrees for threading and I have had no problem of interference with the handles. The only time I have had problems is when I would set the compound at a 5 or 10 degree angle and try to machine. Earl ------- Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2001 15:43:39 -0600 From: "Maxwell Sandford" Subject: Re: Craftsman 6 in. Re-assembly Problems My 101.21400 has this problem. The handle on the compound interferes with the top of the cross-slide (not with it's handle) limiting the travel of the compound when it is set at 29 degrees. All parts are original and there does not appear to be any spacer missing. The compound attaches to the cross-slide with set screws that tighten against spacers that lock into the circular groove that is turned into the top of the cross-slide casting. The problem is that the compound is low enough that its handle interferes with the top of the compound thereby preventing the full compound feed range. There isn't any interference for threading because you can set the compound position within its range of available motion. There is plenty of range for thread cutting. The problem appears when you are trying to turn using the compound, for example if you want to cut a short taper. If the compound angle is significantly larger than 29, then the compound handle doesn't interfere. This looks like it is built into the design of these 6" machines. ------- Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2001 17:00:44 -0500 (CDT) From: dswrx~xxwebtv.net Subject: Re: Craftsman 6 in. Re-assembly Problems Dave, I have a 6" Craftsman/Atlas lathe that I bought new. It is normal for the Crossfeed Knob (ball end) to interfere with the Compound Body when the Compound is set to the 29 degrees recommended to cut a 60 degree V thread. However, it is only on the last two revolutions of withdrawal from the lathe center. That is only about 0.200", more or less. This lathe will only swing around 3" over the Crossslide in any case. I have turned a 3/4" thick steel plate to a diameter of 4", no easy task on a lathe this small! In fact, I can't remember how I did it! Around 50 years ago, so forgive me for faded memories. It was to make a Steady Rest that was featured in a Popular Mechanic's magazine. (The rest works great too!) ------- Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2001 21:28:06 -0500 From: Bill Aycock Subject: Re: Craftsman 6 in. Re-assembly Problems Gentlemen, for what it's worth, I just checked my Atlas 618, and the cross feed will crank back all the way (limited by threads inside cross feed) and the compound will rotate without interference. It is set to 29 deg, usually, but will not hit the crank (or vice-versa) with the cross feed back, and at any angle. It is assembled with the components shown on the parts list, as shown, because I had to replace the crank when I got the lathe. The crank had been broken in some rough handling, ages ago. Maybe the problem is only on some models, because it is not on mine. Bill Bill Aycock --- Persimmon Hill Woodville, Alabama, US 35776 (in the N.E. corner of the State) W4BSG -- Grid EM64vr w4bsgx~xxarrl.net ------- Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 19:39:02 -0000 From: doogdoogx~xxhawaii.rr.com Subject: Re: Gibs for late model 12 X 36 > In the process of rebuilding my Atlas 12 X 36 with Q/C I have > misplaced the gibs for apron, crossslide and the compound. > Clausing/atlas has replacements that are made of plastic. I prefer > metal. Does anyone spare metal gib strips for model 3983, 12" X 36". > Rod Reed Lafayette, LA I made my own out of 1/8" steel stock. If you have a mill it will make the job easier or a milling attachment for your lathe or last resort is the file. ------- Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 20:14:41 -0700 From: "John Johnson" Subject: Re: Gibs for late model 12 X 36 Last year I replaced my plastic gibs and made brass ones for my 12x36 A/C lathe. I did this by using a friend's milling machine. They were not that hard to make and I've really noticed a big difference in performance with the brass gibs over the plastic ones. I would suggest that you try to make a set from some 1/8" x 1/2" brass bar stock. You machine off the edge at a 45-degree bevel and then make some flats along it where the set screws go. John D.L. Johnson jjohnsonx~xxLocoGear.com www.LocoGear.com ------- Date: Sun, 13 May 2001 20:00:08 -0700 From: "John Johnson" Subject: Re: Gibs for late model 12 X 36 > > You machine off the edge at a 45-degree bevel and then make some > > flats along it where the set screws go. > Shouldn't that be 30* or 60* (depending on point of view) as the > slides are 60* are they not? Yes, 30-60 is correct. Sorry for any confusion. John D.L. Johnson www.LocoGear.com ------- Date: Tue, 15 May 2001 18:51:06 EDT From: LADDERBARx~xxaol.com Subject: Re: Tumbler Gears On Atlas 12" Lathe [LOOSE NOISY GEARS, WITH WORN CENTRE HOLES] MSC makes a bronze bushing kit (per lubed) that all different sizes. MSC industrial supply 1 -800-645-7270 or WWW.mscdirect.com. It is on page 3619 of the Big Book. part #35375781 SAE-841 oil impregnated bronze bearing assortment. List price is $36.99 this is a 45 piece assortment. Hope it helps. I replaced every bushing in my lathe with it. Anyone with an Atlas should have this kit. Mike ------- Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 17:08:51 +0000 From: Jon Elson Subject: Re: Drive pin slippage on Craftsman 12X24 STYSx~xxMINDSPRING.COM wrote: > I am having a re-occurring problem with my 12X24. I am currently > working on a large diameter (11.5") face plate that I made out of > scrap aluminum. I have all but completed it with the exception of > truing up the face. When I start to make a light cut (approximately > .002 to.005"), the drive pin disengages, and the face plate stops > rotating. Now, this has happened to me a number of times in the past, > but I stop the lathe, push the pin back in, and continue on my merry > way. It usually happens when I try to take a "heavy" cut which for me > is greater than >.010" depth. But tonight I can't go more that 1/4" > worth of travel across the face of the faceplate before it disengages > again. I'm afraid that either the drive pin hole in the spindle > pulley assembly is tapered or the drive pin in the bull gear is > tapered. I should also state that I am not using the backgears. > Any suggestions other then disassembly and inspection? I suspect either the spring, ball, or both have been dropped out of the pin assembly. There are two detent grooves in the pin, and the ball and spring are to hold the pin in those positions. It is also possible that the bull gear is loose or improperly positioned. It is held in place by an angled set screw to the spindle. If it is free to wobble, due to the setscrew being loose, it may act to work the drive pin back from the engaged position. Tapering of the hole and the pin are likely. My detents are pretty strong, however. I can barely pull the pin when I have a little oil on my hands, so the detent must be resisting to the tune of about 50 Lbs. Jon ------- Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 01:50:43 -0000 From: STYSx~xxMINDSPRING.COM Subject: Re: Drive pin slippage on Craftsman 12X24 Jon, after I posted this question, I when back into my shop and finished the face plate in the fastest backgear. It worked fine, but the rpm's were a little slow. After I was done cleaning up, I took a closer looked the spindle assembly with a flashlight. I found that when I pushed in the drive pin, and held the spindle pulley assembly from moving, I could get about 5 degrees of movement between the bull gear and the spindle! I did find that the set screw on the bull gear had backed out, and the bull gear was loose on the spindle. I tighten it, and now the only play is between the drive pin and the bull gear / spindle pulley assembly, and is greatly reduced. I'm pretty sure that the ball & pin are still in place, for there is some resistance when I pull or push on the drive pin. But its a lot less that 50lbs. I bet the combination of a weak spring and the loose bull gear caused my problem. I'll get a chance to turn this week end, and I'll see if the problem has gone away. If not, I guess I'll need to partially disassemble the spindle assembly, and see about replacing that spring... Thanks Rick Stys Apex, NC Craftsman / Atlas 12X24 ------- Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 20:11:58 -0700 From: Jerry Rude Subject: Re: Drive pin slippage on Craftsman 12X24 Rick: Hi, I'm new to the list, but just fixed the same problem on my 10 inch model. What had happened is the large gear allen screw wouldn't hold the gear in place, slipping slightly. This and the fact the back gear pin was loose in its hole, having slipped out so many times. So I reamed the pin hole, and made a new pin, about .015 larger out of a piece of SS. Then, make sure the gear is tight up against the pulley and the allen screw tightened well. If it continues to slip in the future, I'll make a clamp which will hold the gear in place, not allowing it to move laterally. Jerry Rude 10F x 48 newly purchased but still awaiting parts to complete it. ------- Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 23:36:13 -0400 From: Ronald Thibault Subject: Re: Drive pin slippage on Craftsman 12X24 The pin can be removed for inspection. Normally the spring ball assembly prevents the pin from coming out as the pin has shoulders on either side of the ball. To remove mine I carved a little wedge out of a craft stick, and inserted it next to the pulley end shoulder. The ball then rode up the wedge and past the shoulder, releasing the pin. Ron Thibault North Augusta, SC USA Builder Miinie #2 Captain R/C Combat Ship USS Arizona http://pages.prodigy.net/thibaultr/ ------- Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 04:19:07 +0000 From: Jon Elson Subject: Re: atlas lathe parting problem brluckx~xxnbnet.nb.ca wrote: > I have a atlas 12" underdrive lathe and have just > purchased a new parting tool . I am new to using this lathe. I have > used a larger standard modern 12" for parting and had no trouble. > Are atlas lathe too light for parting cold rolled and mild steel ? No, but if anything is loose, it won't work well! I had a rather sloppy Atlas 10", but when I tightened up all the gibs it worked much better. There are two steel plates under the carriage that prevent the carriage from lifting up from the bed. Try to lift your bed at the front and back. Observe the oil film right at the edge of the carriage. It will detect movement of .001" or so, even better than you can feel the slack. If there is looseness there, you can remove these plates and remove a lamination from the shim to reduce the slack. I think the laminations are .004", so you may want to put a sheet of kitchen aluminum foil or two back to get halfway in between. Make sure to check at the tailstock end of the lathe, it will bind there if you get it too tight. (The more worn area at the headstock end may show more slack at that point.) > I have the lantern style toolpost. The lathe just wants to chatter > itself to peices. I have tried grinding a edge to make the chips role > but have had no luck . How much should a 3/4 horsepower underdrive 12" > lathe be able to cut ? Any suggestions would be appreciated. It will cut plenty, but only if it's tight. If there is slop anywhere, it will show up worse in the parting-off operation than anywhere else. The infeed force is so high, it can lift the rear of the carriage. But, also, check the compound for slack. You may have to tighten the gibs on the compound for parting-off. The lantern toolpost is a horror. I replaced mine over 10 years ago with a Phase-II knockoff of the Aloris-style dovetail toolpost, and it made an enormous difference on a 10" Atlas. I've upgraded to a 12" Atlas, and I still use that toolpost, and highly recommend it. Finally, don't forget the spindle and chuck. If you have a dial indicator, check the spindle for free play (both axial and radial). Apply a 50 Lb force upward as close to the chuck or spindle nose as possible. If there is more than a few thousandths of free play, you need to inspect further. If this is a babbit bearing lathe, there are shims under the bearing caps that can be removed, but free play indicates wear, and when you pull shims the bearing will no longer be round. If this is a Timken roller bearing lathe, then your bearings may be worn out, or the preload may need to be adjusted. Finally, the chuck jaws need to grip a bar along the full length of the jaw. A common problem is known as "bellmouthing", where the outermost part of the jaws are worn, so only the back of the jaw actually grips the work. If you can wiggle the bar in the jaws when the chuck is just very lightly tightened on the work, that is an indication. There are several procedures for grinding the jaws on the lathe, so they are aligned with the lathe's axis. A Dremel tool, air grinder or other spindle can be fixed to the toolpost to do this. It takes only a few minutes and makes a huge difference in all tougher turning jobs. Then, there is technique, but you probably know this. But, it is counter-intuitive that you need to keep the feed up when it starts to chatter, although your instinct is to slow down. I still have some trouble parting off aluminum pieces sometimes, but steel parts off silently and almost effortlessly on my 12" Atlas. I had enormous problems (all of the ones mentioned above, and then some) with my original 10" Atlas, and corrected them over time, as I figured out what was wrong with it. Hope some of this helps! Jon ------- From: johnt49x~xxh... Date: Wed Jul 25, 2001 11:07 am Subject: Re: 618 101.21400 Spindle removal?? > Hello to all (Ultimate newbie here), I need to remove the spindle, I > have read the Atlas's online bulletin on how to do this, and one part > that is not comprehensible: > "Place the piece of broomstick at the left end of spindle S and drive > in direction indicated by arrow until > key T emerges from gear R." > Fine. But how does one "drive" it? They warn about not "hammering with > a metal hammer" and this can't be done by hand. Any advise please? Alex Alex, I recently replaced my spindle bearings. It's ok to use a metal hammer to hit the broomstick, just don't hit the spindle directly. I used a piece of 2x2 & a ball peen hammer. I'd advise threading the collar back on the spindle flush with the spindle end after removing gear & spacer to protect the threads. Be sure you loosen set screw on collar that locates spindle pulley first. It took several good "taps" to get spindle moving, this may damage bearings, but you have little choice. Probably a good idea to replace them any way while it's apart. Two new bearings & cups came to a grand total of $22.96. Don't even consider buying these from Clausing. They want $45.80 ea! Any good bearing supply should have, or be able to get them for you. Timken P/N - 07079 Left bearing (1) - 07100 Right bearing (1) - 07196 bearing cups (2) When you reasssemble be careful when thighening collar on spindle end. If you tighten bearings too much you will have to "tap" spindle to loosen again as bearings are a press fit. You want just a slight amount of pre load on bearings. This is also a good time to replace your belt as you will probably never need to remove spindle again unless something breaks. Good luck, John ------- From: "Bob May" Date: Wed Jul 25, 2001 1:38 pm Subject: Re: [atlas_craftsman] 618 101.21400 Spindle removal?? What kills the bearings with a direct blow with a hammer is the very high force that gets generated when the hammer strikes. "Dead Blow" hammers use a cushion so that the peak force (which can easily deform steel) is lessened and spread over a longer time interval. The total inertia transfer is usually about the same but it's spread over a longer time and thus, the deformation pressures aren't attained anywhere along the line. I might also note that when you do use a dead blow hammer, you insure that the slack is taken up in all of the moving parts or you will just have the bearing slam against the far side and thus get the same high deformation pressures develop. This problem is why you usually see things like the broomstick method used as you will naturally push the stick down to the work and that takes up the slack so that you don't get the sudden shock of the impact of the internal parts. Bob May http://nav.to/bobmay ------- From: HUNLEY31x~xxa... Date: Wed Jul 25, 2001 4:18 pm Subject: Re: [atlas_craftsman] 618 101.21400 Spindle removal?? Alex, I just removed mine (101.07403) and had a hard time with it. After two hours I applied a little heat on the bearing (NOT HOT), that did the trick. I wasn't sure, thought I was doing something wrong, as it was so hard to 'break loose' but it came with a lot of effort. I agree with what everybody else stated. If I can add anything, it would be to screw the end collar back on before you start beating on the shaft. If for no other reason than to 'correct' any of the end threads when you remove the collar that may be damaged when 'tapping on the shaft.' Of course you must remove the collar to complete the removal, but I saw it as some insurance I could correct the end damaged threads if needed. As it was the machine weathered the experience better than I. It didn't shed a drop of blood. LOL. You want to be real careful, don't do anything you're not sure of, just look at the replacement prices of the 'stuff' you're beating on. Regards, Hank ------- From: catboat15x~xxa... Date: Wed Jul 25, 2001 8:35 pm Subject: Re: [atlas_craftsman] 618 101.21400 Spindle removal?? In a message dated 7/25/01, cravdraax~xxy... writes: > Fine. But how does one "drive" it? They warn about not "hammering with > a metal hammer" and this can't be done by hand. If you can't get hold of a lead, bronze, wood hammer go ahead with your household nail hammer, but put a chunk of wood that will take the sharp blow and distribute the force over the end you are driving. John Meacham High Desert of California, Palmdale, Littlerock. ------- From: sleykinx~xxa... Date: Wed Jul 25, 2001 8:44 pm Subject: Re: [atlas_craftsman] Re: 618 101.21400 Spindle removal?? johnt49x~xxh... writes: > When you reasssemble be careful when thighening collar on spindle end. > If you tighten bearings too much you will have to "tap" spindle to > loosen again as bearings are a press fit. You want just a slight > amount of pre load on bearings. One more point .. Make sure you put something soft (shotgun pellet, bit of brass or?) under the setscrew in the preload collar so the threads don't get munged. Glenn Neff Medford, OR ------- From: S1 Date: Thu Jul 26, 2001 5:41 am Subject: Re: [atlas_craftsman] 618 101.21400 Spindle removal?? It seems this would works well also. Something that would help the process is stuffing some dry ice inside the spindle to shrink it some, while lightly heating the bearings. The bearings expand, while the the spindle shrinks. A friend of mine buried a piece of 6" solid round bar in dry ice and its diameter shrunk .100". -Gabe ------- From: "Larry Bailey" Date: Thu Aug 16, 2001 1:53 pm Subject: Re: [atlas_craftsman] Re: Rollie's Dad's Lathe Alignment Question >sleykinx~xxa... wrote: > > In a message dated 08/16/2001,skip_evans writes: > > > I would adjust the tailstock to read zero. Right now you would > > > produce a slight taper. >From: Jon Elson >Then it is almost hopeless. Unless you have a bar that is both VERY >stiff, and very light, it is pretty hard to get it to stay straight. >A 1" steel bar hanging even one foot out of the chuck will droop a bit, >and deflect away when you touch it with the indicator. Using a level, >I can measure the bed twist right up against the headstock, and at the >rightmost end of the bed, however long the bed may be. that is a much >more accurate way of removing twist than trying to measure a bar in the >chuck. If you can come up with a 1 or 1.5" OD hollow roller that has >been centerless ground, that would make a much better test bar for >this purpose. It's been a while since I read through this method. I tried it once and found it rather cumbersome. IIRC the bar doesn't need to be perfectly straight or without taper but does to be measured accurately. Its location has to be measured accurately as well. So a reasonably straight, smooth bar, a dial indicator and a micrometer are the things you need. I tend to agree with Jon. I put a level on mine, tweak the mounting bolts and turn a test bar. The first time I did this I couldn't see a difference on the mic six inches from the chuck. Now if I need to relevel I often don't even bother with a test bar. Larry ------- From: rweersingx~xxw... Date: Fri Aug 17, 2001 4:38 am Subject: Re: Serial Number Location In atlas_craftsman, Robert McDonald wrote: > Thanks Bob. I guess mine is a 10F then, as I have the separate > apron, 3/4" lead screw, and power cross feed. > How did you determine what year yours were made? Rob Hello Rob, on the old lathes, Atlas would Date the spindle bearings with the day month and year. All bets are off if the bearings were replaced but since my lathes had such old dates I assumed that they were the original. I was surprised that my newer model "f" had an older date than my "D" model. I have since found out that Atlas made the "d" model until 1941. The "D" model I inherited from my grandfather when I was a child. My grandfather got the lathe out of the trash behind a machine shop in Kalamazoo Michigan about 1950 and I think he rebuilt it because many of the parts look new. I have a 1950 parts list and it is unbelieveable how cheap things were back then. I ramble on, good luck Bob ------- Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2001 20:46:46 -0400 From: "Ebower" Subject: Re: Re: I have plans for 6" New Style QC box.. There was one issue "Projects in Metal" August 1989. Should get October 1989 issue due to some corrections/omissions in above issue. The guy that did the original plans "John Toscano" was the writer. The second Magazine is "Modeltec" Six parts. George W. Yadon was the writer. July, August, September, October, November, and December 1991. This is a copy of John's but made from plate. Total plans in the article. The third Magazine is also "Projects in Metal" December 1992 Glenn A. Pettit. This is a different version of the gear box. Total plans in the article. Earl ------- Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2001 11:12:32 -0700 From: "Bob May" Subject: Re: Taper Turning Actually, it isn't that the bed needs to be level but rather that it's not twisted. A twisted bed will produce a taper but a bed that is tilted at 45 deg. and not twisted will not produce that taper. Making the bed level is the simplest way tho of making an attempt at insuring that the bed isn't twisted. I'd check your calculations and settings on the lathe to insure that the taper is correct. I'd also try doing a 0deg. taper (a cylinder) as a reference guidepoint. Bob May http://nav.to/bobmay ------ Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2001 18:18:23 +0000 From: Jon Elson Subject: Re: Taper Turning >> Thanks for the reply. I have the Starrett level you describe. I took the lathe off of the stand and leveled the stand and then put the lathe back on and leveled it. It still is 3 degrees off. Any other suggestions would be appreciated. EA << No, leveling the stand is meaningless. You need to level the BED ways of the lathe, to get both ends parallel. I use a master precision level which brings them to a couple of arc seconds of level. these levels will EASILY detect a hair under one end! But, I doubt that this is your problem. To get a 3 degree error, you'd need a visible twist in the bed. What you need to do is get a large piece of material, and try to face it flat in the chuck, using the compound to move the tool. When you get it so it is flat, and not a convex or concave cone, then, you can scribe the 90 degree mark. Using the compound to cut a cylinder of constant diameter, you can check the mark and make sure it lines up with the zero on the cross slide. If they don't match, then you have some kind of foul up with the markings. If they line up, all other marks should line up, too. For precise tapers, you need to have a master of known correct taper, and fit the master into/onto the part you are making, using bluing dye to check for the accuracy of the fit. When the bluing is transferred for the full length of the taper, then you know that your part correctly duplicates the taper of the master. One thing to beware of on old lathes is that the compound can be worn unevenly, causing it to travel in a curved path. You can't cut any taper with accuracy when the compound is in that kind of shape! Jon ------- Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2001 20:47:35 -0000 From: doogdoogx~xxhawaii.rr.com Subject: Re: Taper Turning In atlas_craftsman, ejohna wrote: > If I set the rest for a 30 degree taper I end up with a 33 degree. I > find that if I set the rest to 0 degrees it is not square with the > chuck. I have to set it a 3 degrees to get it square. Is there an > adjustment to correct this or should I rescibe the line on the rest? Aloha, after doing what all of the other replies suggest I would if possible turn it using the tailstock center to keep it from deflecting and use a sharp bit. Check to see if your gibs are snug and not sloppy. Some of the Atlas, Craftsman use a nylon type of gib and after a while it cracks and creates a loose spot so be sure to check what type of gib you have. I doubt that the markings on the cross slide and compound could be 3 deg's off but it is possible. Hope this helps. Mahalo, Howard ------- Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2001 17:31:43 -0700 From: Frank Evan Perdicaro Subject: Taper issue Your problem could be as simple as the problem on my 10F. Totally worn out everything! Even after I replaced both precision nuts in the compound (one for each screw) I can still move the bit back and forth with my hand, but not an eight of an inch, like before. (No exaggeration there, really that much.) It appears I need to replace all three screws on my lathe too. Most of you would flat-out not believe how worn my lathe is. The screwforms are no longer Acme, or even a typical 60 degree thread form, but a sort of truncated 60 degree thread form. The nuts that engaged the screws were only slightly different than cylinders. ------- Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2001 21:06:20 -0400 From: "EA" Subject: Re: Taper Turning Thanks for the reply. If I install the face plate and take the tool post off, set the rest at 0 degrees and use a good square from the slot for the tool post to the face plate should that be square? This is a new lathe, less that 25 hours. After I leveled the stand then I did level the bed with a Starrett precision level. Both ways are level from the head to the tail and also from one way to the other at both the head & tail. ------- Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2001 06:21:32 +0000 From: Jon Elson Subject: Re: Taper Turning >Thanks for the reply.If I install the face plate and take the tool >post off, set the rest at 0 degrees and use a good square from the >slot for the tool post to the face plate should that be square? EA You need to turn the faceplate to make sure it is truly flat and square to the spindle axis. (Nothing can be trusted until you've checked it!) By turn, I mean using a dial indicator, as we already know there is a problem in the lathe. If the faceplate is running pretty true, then you should verify that the cross slide travels parallel to the faceplate. If the cross slide IS parallel, then you can check the degree marks for the compound, and see if they need adjusting. If the cross slide is not at right angles to the spindle axis, then don't even look at the degree marks, as the problem is below them. ------- Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2001 06:14:42 -0000 From: rweersingx~xxworldnet.att.net Subject: Re: Taper Turning I would check the gibs and if they are Ok I would rescribe the line. I have had to do this with a number of machines and accessories. They probably scribed the line at the factory before the rest was mounted on the machine. Good luck Bob 618 Atlas lathe 10X36 F Atlas lathe(1939) 10X42 D Atlas lathe (1940) U.S. Burk Millrite milling machine (1968) ------- Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2001 04:07:03 -0400 From: "Matthew King" Subject: Re: Best collet choice? + lathe work question [SNIP: COLLET PORTION IS IN "Atlas Collets" FILE] A question for you lathe veterans - I have a Harrison 12x40 lathe that I cannot get a quality finish with, regardless of carbide insert used, HSS toolbit, cemented carbide, rusty nail, etc. (just kidding about the nail!) I've leveled the bed with a Starret machinist's level(80-90 seconds or .005" per foot - not quite a "master precision level (10 second or .0005" per foot) but not $500 either!) I've got an Aloris CXA toolpost. I've meticulously followed the recommended speed and feed charts for all materials cut. The only acceptable finish I've been able to get is in some Nylon, but you can still see "waves". Stainless steel (I know it's contrary but this is AWFUL) is horrendous. It looks "ripped." Carbon steel of various hardness is a bit better, but certainly not acceptable, even at the slowest possible feed rates. Aluminum is relatively smooth but still wavy. I don't believe there's any taper being introduced, just an AWFUL finish. I've tried very large nose radius inserts, very narrow radius inserts, 1/2" wide square cemented toolbits, carefully ground (by an ex-Pratt & Whitney machinist friend) HSS toolbits. We're at a complete loss here. The machine was built in 66 with a period 3phase 3HP dual speed motor that appears quite smooth running. The gear- case is run by dual V-belts that are properly tensioned. All of the visible gears appear in quite good shape and are properly lubed. The gearcase itself is a submerged bath (Mobil Heavy Vactra) system properly filled. The spindle bearing "play" is <.002" from one extreme to the other (using the pipe in chuck, indicator on chuck, lift and shove method). Material can be centered within .0005-.001" in the Pratt three jaw chuck. A dial indicator traversed across a 1 foot piece of material shows ZERO runout from chuck towards tailstock. A slightly notchy live center has been being used and is being replaced just in case, but can't possibly impart this level of roughness. It's just as bad when turning without the tailstock in place. HELP! PLEASE! Any ideas? Thanks, Matt King Columbus, GA no Atlas(yet), but a Harrison! ------- Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 18:04:25 -0000 From: rweersingx~xxworldnet.att.net Subject: Re: Best collet choice? + lathe [HARRISON] work question Hello Matt, I had the same problem with a 6" Atlas lathe. I replaced the crossfeed nut and snugged up all the gibs which helped, but I was still getting a rough finish. About a month later I took the spindle of to replace the belt and noticed the preload on the bearings seemed too loose. Putting the spindle back together with the proper preload on the bearings cured all of the rough finish problems. Hope that helps since you seem to have done everything else. Good luck Bob ------- Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2001 00:35:58 EDT From: CaptonZapx~xxaol.com Subject: The Color Photo Lathe I have a unique lathe that has me intrigued. It is an Atlas head stock and bed, with two carriages with cross slides, no compounds, a lead screw that has a blank section in the center of it, and a rudimentary set of gears to drive the lead screw. It was used for cutting rotogravure plates for printing. The bed is like new, and the cross slides do not show any wear. I assume that once you set the depth of cut, the only motion was along the bed, with the lead screw moving both carriages in unison, the photo pick up looking at the object photo, and the vibrating head cutter doing the engraving. It didn't get much use, judging by the absence of wear marks on the bed. Needless to say, the thing looks like a brand new lathe to me, just short some critical parts. Has anyone seen one like it? And does anybody know where I could find parts for it to turn it into a proper lathe. The most critical part would be a QC gear box and lead screw. A tail stock would be nice, although I have a tail stock off of a Grizzley that could be made to work. Thanks for any help, Jerry Roy ------- Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2001 23:33:04 -0500 From: "M K (Skip)Campbell Jr." Subject: Re: The Color Photo Lathe Jerry, I bought one just like it to upgrade my 101.28990. It is the identical lathe except for the oddessy's you mention. It perfect for upgrading or renewing I should say, the 101.28990 or 28991 or any late model Craftsman/Atlas lathe. I took the quick change and drive gears, lead screw and tail stock, motor and pulleys off my lathe and put them on the photo lathe. I later found a like new lead screw and replaced the well worn one on my lathe (which I still have). My lathe is now in great shape. Skip Campbell ------- Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2001 07:24:06 -0000 From: nathanandannax~xxcs.com Subject: Half Nuts First off, thanks to all who responded to my post on varying thread pitch. I was trying another thread today when I noticed that the half nuts open and close slightly as the carriage oves along. I pulled the carriage off and the half nuts are loose in the bracket that they slide in. When I say loose, I mean at least .030 side to side and up and down. They do not appear to be worn much so I am not sure if this is normal or if I am missing a shim or something. The lathe was a basket case when I got it so it could be missing something. It seems plausible that this could be why I am having inconsistencies with my threads. Thanks again for all the help, Nathan ------- Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2001 09:06:07 -0500 From: "jerdal" Subject: Re: Half Nuts Again, are you sure the leadscrew is straight? also: The pins that close the halfnuts may be loose in the backsides of the nuts The pins may be worn or wrong size ("an earlier user's "fix"?) the halfnut carrier block may be worn, letting halfnuts tilt etc the rotating plate that the pins ride in may be worn, The rotating plate may be loose on the engagement lever shaft the engagement lever may be not moving far enough (jammed, blocked) The halfnuts may be worn, but so evenly that you don't see it. You may have to try them on the screw separately after disassembly. Also: try closing them with your fingers after the engagement lever has moved as far as it can, then try to move the carriage back and forth. Is it still loose? do they act like they want to spring apart? I have a logan that had very worn halfnuts, and a very loose carrier. I had 1/8 inch total movement, but I could cut a 32 pitch thread OK, as long as I made sure that the carriage was against the screw, by holding it back after engaging the nuts. That took up the backlash. Try it??? That's all that spewed forth from the old brain right now. Jerry ------- Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 18:13:29 -0000 From: sevenish1x~xxyahoo.com Subject: Why does my 12 X 36 chatter? I am new to this group but have many years of machine experience so I am puzzled by a problem I have with my Atlas lathe. I have a primo 12 X 36 that I have extensively refurbished. New belts,headstock bearings, cleaned, oiled, tightened and painted. Looks like new and cuts like crap. I simply cannot get a decent cut no matter what speed, feed, or depth of cut. I have put a dial indicator everywhere and measured for spindle deflection, chuck deflection,tool deflection, barometric pressure and phase of the moon and just I cannot figure out why it cuts so lame. I am using an Aloris type tool holder and have tried both small radius carbide tools and HSS to no avail. The machine always produces a chattered finish except on the very lightest of cuts. Even with the gibs tightened to the max it chatters. Do you folks have any suggestions for what to try? I have operated many lathes over the years but this one has me stumped. I know other people seem to like this machine but at the moment I can't figure out why. Randy Howard ------- Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 22:06:22 -0000 From: doogdoogx~xxhawaii.rr.com Subject: Re: Why does my 12 X 36 chatter? Aloha, I would check the following: 1) If you have the horizontal counter shaft type, check to see if the bolt between the horizontal counter shaft and lathe is adj. properly. 2) Is your lathe bolted down or is it just sitting on the bench. I would bolt it to the bench and bolt the bench to the floor. 3) Do you have the metal gibs or the nylon one. If nylon, I would remove the and check to see if it is cracked or broken. 4) Try moving the carriage by hand while turning a round stock and see if the finish is the same or better. If it is better then that will mostly rule out the compound and carriage. 5) Is your lead screw ok? 6) Check your half-nuts for damage and excessive wear and also the assembly that it attaches to. 7) Check your belt to see that it is not too hard. Sometimes when the lathe is sitting a long time with tension on the belt it takes the form of the pulley and it could cause a little vibration. Hint, release the tension lever when lathe is not in use. Hope this helps, and with the other suggestions that were posted you should find the problem cause. Mahalo, Howard ------- Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 18:25:53 -0500 From: "Koepke, Kevin" Subject: RE: Re: Why does my 12 X 36 chatter? 36 inch is a long bed for the Atlas bed design. Some, including me think it's too long. I have a 618, and have just recently purchased a 10-F x 24. I have some problems with chatter, but with limitations, I am quite pleased with them. Howard's #2 is most likely to be the problem. The more mass it's bolted to, the better. How about a concrete foundation? ------- Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 20:39:48 -0500 From: "jerdal" Subject: Re: Re: Why does my 12 X 36 chatter? Some 110V motors have a devilish vibration which a light lathe (or a heavier one) can transmit to the cutting edge. tends not to change much with turning speed. Might not be your problem if light cuts work OK, but worth a try. Also, there's lots of gibs and other things as well. As you know, if the compound is somehow loose on its little seat, problems occur. Easy to overlook when thinking of gibs. Might be a chip in there? Jerry ------- Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2001 04:12:05 +0000 From: Jon Elson Subject: Re: Why does my 12 X 36 chatter? sevenish1x~xxyahoo.com wrote: > I am new to this group but have many years of machine experience so I > am puzzled by a problem I have with my Atlas lathe. I have a primo > 12 X 36 that I have extensively refurbished. New belts,headstock > bearings, cleaned, oiled, tightened and painted. Looks like new and > cuts like crap. I simply cannot get a decent cut no matter what > speed, feed, or depth of cut. I have put a dial indicator everywhere > and measured for spindle deflection, chuck deflection,tool > deflection, barometric pressure and phase of the moon and just I > cannot figure out why it cuts so lame. I am using an Aloris type tool > holder and have tried both small radius carbide tools and HSS to no > avail. The machine always produces a chattered finish except on the > very lightest of cuts. Even with the gibs tightened to the max it > chatters. Do you folks have any suggestions for what to try? I have > operated many lathes over the years but this one has me stumped. > I know other people seem to like this machine but at the moment I > can't figure out why. Well, I did have chatter problems with my 10" when I got it, but it was a wreck. I now have a 12", and although I can MAKE it chatter, it rarely does, and takes pretty decent cuts. There is something WRONG with your machine. Don't think it is just because all Atlas machines are junk, or something like that. It CAN be cured, and will do a good job after the problem is detected. I assume this is a Timken bearing machine. The one thing you CAN'T do with abandon on lighter machines is take cuts with a WIDE cutting tool (ie. producing a wide chip). That seems to excite the flex in the machine more than anything. I think this is due to flex in the carriage/ compount mounting, which is pretty much the weak link in the Atlas. The Aloris-type toolholder was a great improvement on my 10" Atlas. If you had a lantern-style toolpost, that would have been the first change I would have suggested, but you've already done it. What material are you trying to cut? Some totally unknown scrap from around the shop? That can be the problem. Try some mild steel or aluminum alloy first. Keep the speed high (120 FPM for steel, 500 FPM for aluminum is a good place to start) and the infeed pressure moderate. Make sure the cutting tool is level with the center of the spindle. Make sure the flank of the tool is not rubbing on the work. This can happen if not enough front or side relief has been put on the cutter. Don't try to cut too far from the chuck without supporting the work with a tailstock center. One other problem that I had was 'bellmouthing' of the chuck jaws. When short pieces are gripped in the jaws a lot, the tips of the jaws suffer more. wear, and the jaws will only grip long pieces in the back of the chuck. With the chuck slightly snugged up, see if you can wiggle a rod in the chuck. If so, the jaw tips are not gripping the work. This will make easy work very difficult and frustrating. The fix is to use whatever grinding equipment you can come up with to get a small grinding wheel inside the chuck. You need a wheel that will fit inside the hole in the chuck, so you can grind the jaws all the way back. What you do is install the Dremel, air die grinder, toolpost grinder, electric drill or whatever you've got to the toolpost, at approximately the center height of the spindle. Use chewing gum, rubber bands, putty, or whatever to pull the chuck jaws outward, so they ride the same side of the scroll as when they are gripping a bar. Adjust the jaws so they are somewhat smaller than the center hole. Set the chuck turning very slowly, with the feed screw running on a fine feed setting. Advance the grinding wheel into the chuck with the carriage carefully, and then bring the grinder out with the crossfeed until the wheel just touches the jaws. Engage the power feed, and let the grinder slowly work inward. If the bellmouthing is severe, you may have to start at the back (where there's more metal) and work outwards. I actually do this with the chuck stopped, and make the preliminary roughing passes manually, until the jaws are pretty much trued up, then finish with one power-fed pass.This saves time, as the wheel hardly ever touches the jaws when the chuck is turning - you're mostly cutting air. You'd be amazed at what a difference a set of trued-up jaws will make on a worn lathe chuck. It is a good idea to cover the ways with aluminum foil, rags, paper towels or whatever, to keep the grinding grit out of the carriage. A couple places to look on the Atlas lathe for looseness are the swivel joint where the compound sits on the cross slide, and the gibs hidden on the underside of the carriage. These really shouldn't be a problem for normal cutting, but can cause major crashes when using cutoff tools or heavy threading in steel. You can check them by trying to lift straight up on the front and rear of the carriage.It should be constrained to within .001" or so. One last possibility (you say you've already checked) is looseness of the chuck mounting at the spindle thread. A poorly-cut thread could be loose enough to allow the chuck to wobble under cutting forces. One way to check is to loosen the chuck from the spindle about 1/4 turn, and try to rock it on the thread. A little looseness is normal, but if it really rocks a lot, then the thread may be too loose. it might only allow the chuck to shift under cutting loads, and so a manual test with a dial indicator might not show the problem. The test I use is to put a one foot bar (1 " or more diameter) in the chuck, and put a dial indicator on the back of the chuck body. Lift up with about 50 lbs force at the end of the bar. The chuck body should not rise up by more than .001". Now, you have to take some care in how you mount the dial indicator, or you will measure bed flex rather than spindle stiffness with this. So, mounting the dial indicator on the compound would be misleading. You want to mount it to the headstock casting if possible, otherwise to the bed as close to the headstock as possible. There is a fairly elaborate bearing preload scheme, which requires running the lathe at high speed for 8 hours to heat the spindle, and then the bearing preload is set. I do it by observing the above mentioned measurement and increasing preload in small increments until the spindle is well constrained. That seems to work fine. Jon ------- Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2001 16:04:10 -0000 From: gppainex~xxtir.com Subject: Re: Why does my 12 X 36 chatter? John provided a lot of good information, and it is likely that checking the chuck to spindle play will pick up these conditions, but I'd like to point to a couple more areas I've seen cause chatter trouble in a friend's 12 x 36. One was the bolts holding the headstock to the bed were not tight and would allow the headstock to move under load. The other was loose screws that hold the chuck together that let the front half of the chuck move with respect to the backplate. Can't say how all that got loose, but snugging things up made a major improvement in quality of cut. Good luck, Gary ------- Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2001 16:58:23 +0000 From: Jon Elson Subject: Re: Re: Why does my 12 X 36 chatter? > I'd like to point to a couple more areas I've seen cause chatter > trouble in a friend's 12 x 36. One was the bolts holding the > headstock to the bed were not tight and would allow the headstock to > move under load. The other was loose screws that hold the chuck > together that let the front half of the chuck move with respect to the > backplate. Can't say how all that got loose, but snugging things up > made a major improvement in quality of cut. Either of these two conditions can also be caused by little bits of grit, paint flakes, etc. that get between finely machined surfaces that need to fit precisely. Jon ------ Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2001 16:36:25 From: "robert B" Subject: Re: Why does my 12 X 36 chatter? I'm by far not the expert here, but I've had problems with chatter to. Mostly when turning between centers, with the chatter marks on the headstock end. All I could take were very light cuts. Problem was, a belt was slipping. ------- Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2001 10:34:10 -0700 From: Frank Evan Perdicaro Subject: Re: Why does my 12 X 36 chatter? Having replaced lots of parts on my 10F, I still get chatter. On my lathe, one of the culprits is the compound screw mount. Not the nut, and not the threaded part of the compound screw, but the part nearest the handle. If the mount is worn, the top-most part of the compound can move even if there is zero backlash on the screw. Solution? New compound screw assembly. Has anybody ever tried adding mass to the bed? It seems to me one could disassemble the lathe, turn it upside down and fill the underside with a mix of castable urethane and lead shot. First clean everything, then lay in a piece of 1/2" styrofoam. Then mix up the lead/urethane mix and fill the inverted bed right up. When the mix is set, flip it back over and remove the styrofoam with a gasoline rinse. The gap between the top of the filler and bottom of the bed should be enough to let the tailstock operate correctly. This mix would kill chatter and would probably weigh 100 lbs. [NOTE: BAGS OF SAND STRATEGICALLY PLACED ON THE LATHE STAND WILL DO WONDERS -- CHEAPLY.] ------- Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 13:47:23 -0700 From: "GuyW" Subject: Re: Re: ...chatter? LONG Hi group...since I've been collecting info on chatter (as result of my interest in building the Gingery lathe, among other reasons), so I'll post it here SOME IDEAS ON SOURCES OF AND SOLUTIONS TO, LATHE CHATTER The following concepts (which I ripped off the Chaski board) don't affect the Gingery patterns and castings, but your ultimate assembly of and happiness with the lathe. Basic ideas on preventing chatter are apparently to create rotating "smoothness" in the basic lathe, and never to allow vibration or roughness to develop (duh, Guy!). I see this affecting our pulleys (straight & concentric enuff?), belts (some real junk out there) (V, round, flat or ??) and how cheap / loose the motor is.the idea of an intervening power shaft, clutch, and flywheel to isolate power surges seems very good, however, I lean toward a smaller type of lineshaft as compared to a huge old overhead system - perhaps a scaled-up watchmakers-lathe-type of lineshaft. -Guy- ------- Hi, I am new to the world of metal working and I could use some advice. I had a 1922 Dalton Six metal lathe follow me home. It has been in storage for the last 25-30 years and it appears to be in good condition and well equipped with tooling. It needs a good cleaning, and lubrication as well as having the flat leather drive belt replaced. What types of oil should I use on this machine, and where should I use it? How do I go about replacing the leather drive belt, and how or where do I get a replacement? Are there any good books on machine tool restoration, and repair? Where might I find any manuals or information on this lathe? Any and all help greatly appreciated. Thanks, Greg Fosmark Duvall, WA ANSWER 1: hi, greg, the dalton is a really nice little machine, and will do good work once you have it dialed in. there's a "secret"...for getting good work from light machines....not really very secret, tho, cos the war production board put out a pamphlet about this technique back, during the war when every machine in the country was expected to work three shifts, 24hrs a day. this "secret" is in the mounting....make up forms, and pour a heavy cement base for the lathe, somewhat like an elongated truncated pyramid, with a clearance area for the operator's feet. arrange a three point mounting for the lathe, and bolt the lathe down firmly with cement anchor bolts....the sheer mass/weight of the cement base adds rigidity and damps out vibration.....after stripping the forms away, when the concrete has fully cured...pry the concrete base up from the floor, just enough to fit three dense rubber pads under it....three point mounting again. the magnitude of difference this makes with a light lathe in the south bend/logan class has to be seen to be appreciated. mount the motor and countershaft either above or behind the lathe, on wall uprights or ceiling joists....making a small lathe "self-contained" may look pretty, but is a bad idea, cause any little bit of vibration or resonances in the motor or c'shaft will be transmitted to the lathe bed...and the idea of the heavy base is to isolate the lathe from external influences, as well as to enhance rigidity. if you can find a light c'shaft clutch assembly, bush it nicely, make a hardwood sleeve to increase the diameter of the pulley face of the clutch, and use a small pulley on motor for single reduction.....bring the lever for the clutch down to a convenient point over the lathe. the difference in convenience in having the motor run constant speed whilst you start/stop the spindle with a clutch, as compared to having to start/stop the rotating mass of the motor, may well be only a minor convenience, but its well worth doing. belting is straightforward.....since you're out in duvall, you'll have a seattle phone book....look in the yellow pages under "belting" or "power transmission".....best is to learn to "skive", that is, form tapered ends, and glue up leather belts....all belts stretch, and will need to be shortened from time to time.....or...have the supplier cut you a roll of a suitable width of light "oil-proof" cotton/rubber belting, get a "clipper vise lacer" (i've seen those come up cheaply on ebay) and run metal laced belts...... oil is straightforward....just get a gallon of any good make of spindle oil.....i prefer "vactra" myself. getting the lathe set up....cleaning, oiling, adjusting bearings if needs be, deburring/flaking/adjusting gibs, etc., is really easy on a small machine like the dalton.....its been too many years since i've even seen a dalton for me to remember anything about them...i think i remember then as having bronze on spindle, and split caps....unless the spindle has been run dry, your chances are very good you'll not have to do much work on the spindle and its bearings.... well, there's a start....good luck....... : ) cheers carla ANSWER 2: Carla's post was right on the money, as usual. I'll share a little of my experiences with you, as well. Years ago I knew a fellow in his 80's who had both an impressive collection of old engines and a reputation as a first class machinist. He and I became pretty close friends and he became a sort of mentor to me. When I began putting together my own shop, he helped me set up all the machinery and gave me the line shafting. Now, today a lot of guys will scoff at a bunch of pulleys and shafting lurking over your head but believe me, I wouldn't have it any other way. My first lathe was a sebastian and it had an adapter on it to support the cone pulley and the motor. It worked but I couldn't get a nice finish. Bill told me to get the shaft hung from the ceiling and bolt the motor to the floor and try it. The difference was amazing. Most of the motors we have available to us are not balanced nearly as well as we think and, if it is fixed rigid to the lathe, the vibration carries through to the machine and makes itself known to you as a fine chatter. I have run machinery with the motor bolted to the wall, and to the rafters, and both of those locations were noisy, the hum of the motor is a 60 cycle vibration and the building simply begins to resonate at that frequency. Most annoying. The concrete floor does a wonderful job of dampening the vibrations. Hang your countershaft and your lineshaft, you will belt your motor to the lineshaft and run a straight belt and a twisted belt to the countershaft clutch pulleys. Drive the lineshaft at 250 rpm (pretty much a standard for small lineshafts). If you have an induction repulsion motor, they are the best, they have high starting torque and start smoother than capacitor motors. Very few machine tools had capacitor start motors on them, they start with a jerk and tend to vibrate more. If you can get single ply leather belting, use it over canvas/rubber. The oil that invariably gets on the belts will turn the canvas/rubber belting into a gooey mess in 10 years. A single ply belt, about 3/32 thick and 1/4 narrower than your pulleys will transmit all the power you need. If the belt is too thick, it takes more tension to make it drive and is hard on the bearings all the way around. It is the friction of the belt against the pulley that drives, so a supple belt can conform to the pulley and do the work without pulling it real tight. I lace all my belts with rawhide shoelaces. This is easy to learn if you buy the Robert Smith books "Advanced Machine Work" and "Elements of Machine Work" from Lindsay. Metal laces slip and wear the pulleys. Rawhide laced belts can be lumpy if not done right and this too can set up a vibration. Cemented belts are wonderful but they are a pain to shorten when they stretch. It is advisable to slack the belts, if possible, when the machine is going to be idle for a period of time to limit the amount they stretch. I also have a 10" Logan and a 9" southbend and I have run both of them from a lineshaft for several years with good results. I wish I could run my B'port from it as well. The darn v-belt drive is a source of irritation, a new belt will run smooth for a few months and then get lumpy and start to vibrate. Maybe this is why Southbend stayed with flat belts on their lathes until relatively recently. Good luck with your machine, and if it seems like a lot of work to set up the drive arrangement, it is but you get out of it what you put in. Interesting post #1 I ripped off the Chaski board (I steal all my best ideas!) for application to Gingery machines: "What I did notice was that the Taig has an extrusion body filled with what looks like cement. On top, is a dovetail steel bed much like that of hardinge. Martin of Germany builds 30,000 dollar table saws with a cement filled steel sandwich structure. This structure absorbs 6 times as much vibration as pure cast iron and cast iron absorbs 10 times as much as rolled steel and aluminum. So I know the Taig will excel here." Posted by emchd on December 17, 00 at 20:34:42 Interesting post #2 Posted by Forrest Addy on December 27, 00 at 05:15:45: This is an edited version of my postings to Jack Erskine several screens down that some of you may find helpful. Jack wrote of a finish problem similar to chatter that he had that he could not solve despite Herculean trouble shooting and remedies where he practically rebuilt his headstock all to no avail. *********** Those of you who have bought small Asian built lathes equipped with single phase motors or if you converted a three phase machine to single phase by replacing the motor with a single phase unit, you may have encountered a finish problem. If the feed marks are closely examined they seem to resemble the grooves in an old fashioned record, that is they may have varying depth or an irregular appearance much like chatter. Extreme cases may look like hell. It's sometime difficult to distinguish this problem from another -- tool chatter. If the finish problems cannot be eliminated by the usual chatter remdedies, you might be coping with vibration "phonographing" the finish. The problem may be caused by a torsional vibration in the single phase motor, sometimes called "cogging." The armature of a motor is tightly gripped by the magnetic fields that cause it to rotate. A single phase motor acts something like a single cylinder engine where the power pulses may be several times the average torque of the full revolution. This pulse is transmitted by the belt to the spindle and the opposing torque transmitted by the motor stator to the machine. The consequent vibrations may meet where the tool contacts the work, recording itself on the finish like on a phonograph record. Here's a trouble shooting method: Slack the belts so they will barely drive the lathe while it's in a light cut. If possible, isolate the motor by slacking off the mounting bolts and slipping hose washers between the motor base and the mount and between the bolt head and whatever it bears against. Tighten the bolts just enough to hold the motor in position. The object is to inject as much compliance and damping as possible in what is usually a fairly rigid drive. If things wobble around a little it's OK. That's our plan. Take a couple of trial cuts and see if there's a significant improvement in the finish quality. This suggestion is intended to support diagnosis not a fix. If the pattern disappeared when the machine was practically de-coupled from the motor, that indicates the problem is definitely motor, not belts or tool chatter. The only solutions are to either to de-couple the motor via rubber motor mounts or procure a new motor smoother in operating characteristics. Often, there is something about in a lathe/bench assembly that propagates motor vibration. You might try placing sandbags here and there on your lathe bench or motor mount. Inert weight like sand or pea gravel blots vibration to an amazing degree. If sandbags cure the problem, chances are the bench or whatever need stiffening or reinforcement at those points. If your checkbook can stand it, a new motor might be the best solution because you can upgrade in power at the same time -- that is if your electrical system can stand the extra load. The best solution is naturally expensive: either a DC motor and solid state drive or a 3 phase motor preferably with a solid state drive if not a rotary converter. I also suggest a softer acting V-belt known as "Link Belt." This is a V-belt comprised of interlocked rubber/fabric links. Links can be added or removed to secure the desired length. Their principal advantage is their forgiving nature and vibration mitigation. Another big advantage is you won't have to dismantle your spindle to replace the V-belt, just cut the old belt off and link together the new belt. Needless to say, the smoother the drive the better. when I bought my lathe new in 1971, it came direct driven by a 3 phase motor but I replaced the motor with a 5 HP single phase to suit my power. I had the same perplexing "phonographing" problem. I solved it after a fashion by relocating the motor from the machine to the floor nearby using a V-belt drive. I got good productivity and good finishes but naturally it wasn't as smooth as a Monarch 1760, one of the last and best engine lathes built in the UScosting $75,000. A few years ago, I upgraded my lathe motor to 10 HP 3 Phase with a variable frequency drive. The motor happened to be precision balanced but I don't think that was a factor in performance improvement. It made an incredible difference not to have the 60 Hz torsional impulse or cogging. Where I used to see faint ripples in a cold drink set on the headstock, the machine now runs dead smooth. Where the gear noise used to be annoying, it's now a smooth musical whir. If anything, I now get better finishes with my machine than on the Monarch, thanks to a smooth drive free from torque impulse and vibration. A cautionary note. A 3 phase motor running on a static converter still develops significant torsional vibration and 2/3 rated HP. It will run smoother on a rotary converter and develop full HP. Therefore I suggest if you wish to change out single phase motors you obtain two three phase motors. One to run your lathe and another the next nominal HP larger from which to build a phase converter. I'd really like to suggest a variable speed drive but that might be too expensive for most people. I'm sure your own creativity will solve your vibration problem. I suggest using found materials where possible. Perhaps a small automotive engine mount or suspension component. Here in blubbery USA there's a large traffic in exercise machines. Naturally, they are seldom used and may be bought cheap at yard sales. They have smooth running 1 HP DC motors with a cheap variable speed drive that might be suited if your lathe is used exclusively for light work or Interesting post #3 Posted by Joe Fangohr on January 25, 01 at 21:30:07: On another subject, I read often of different methods to reduce vibration in machine tools. I have a bench mill, and it vibrated something awful. The first thing I did was check the motor shaft for runout. Mine was reading about .004 tir. I pulled the offending thing out, put it in my arbor press and tweaked it straight, or actually got it running about .001 tir. This helped some but it still had what seemed like way too much vibration. Another thing I noticed that was causing the vibration was the v-belts. They would just flop all over the place when the mill was running. Some of this was probably caused by the pulleys being poorly made, but most I think by the v-belts wedging themselves in their grooves and then getting pulled out of them each revolution. So I chucked the whole lot, v-belts and pulleys, and made me some poly-v step pulleys out of cast iron. If you are not familiar with these they are the flat belts commonly used on cars these days that look like flat belts but have a number of tiny v grooves. The difference is unbelievable in how much smoother my bench mill runs now, and quieter too. I wouldn't say that it now cuts like a turret mill or anything like that but it sure doesn't vibrate so much. I also did this to our tablesaw at work, it's a contractor saw since we have to be mobile, and before if I put something like a wrench on the saw table while it was running the wrench would quickly make its way right off the side from the vibrations, and now you can hardly even feel any vibration with your hand! IT definitely cuts much smoother than I ever dreamed it was capable of doing. I think that the poly-v belts give the smoothness of flat belts and the gripping power of v-belts, kinda the best of both worlds. Didn't have anything to do so thought I'd ramble a bit, you all have a nice day! Joe Interesting post #4 Posted by Joe on May 08, 01 at 07:55:09: ...wooden pulleys on the lathe headstock have a lot to recommend them, not the least of which is the fact that the coefficient of friction of leather to wood is greater than leather to cast iron or more particularly steel. An 1850's era woodworking lathe that I own had been converted to a v belt drive, seemingly by putting a wooden "disk" in place of the original pulley and then turning the disk so that it had a groove for the belt to ride in. It took me a few minutes and a bit of keen observation to see that the wooden pulley was original construction and had been considerably larger and longer and had probably 75 percent of it removed in the adaptation. Someone *really* wanted the lathe adapted to electric motor drive. In fact on this lathe the smallest diameter of the cone pulley was actually cast iron and "made" right to the headstock shaft and served with wood screws to hold the wood portion of the pulley in place. With some creative intuition I was able to "reconstruct" the original wooden pulley from laminated maple. This takes some time but a bandsaw helps as does choosing your step thicknesses to be some multiple of 3/4 inch. The other factor to think of is the pulley in the countershaft has to "match" the pulley in the headstock. Otherwise, it's possible to have the belt tight on one step and yet be loose on another. (Match is "approximate" since the leather belts will stretch a bit - within 1/2" is likely close enough.) You may want to consult the formulas in "Machinery's Handbook" which take into account the distance between the two shafts also. Another good reason for making at least one of the two pulleys from maple. The usual practice (my 1850's lathe notwithstanding) was to have the pulley in the overhead drive made of wood and the pulley on the headstock of the lathe made of iron. The reason for this was to have any slippage that occured in the leather belt visible on the pulley nearest to the operator. Hopefully the operator would thus be more attentive to the belt tightness and more inclined to keep his machine "up to snuff." It was also recommended by Machinery's Handbook that the pulley diameters chosen result in a "logarithmic" ratio between the different speeds. However, I have examined most of my early flat belt drive machine tools for this and found it to be a "late" convention. Most 19th century machines do not incorporate this. Usually the iron pulley on the lathe was machined inside and out and even balanced if necessary with a small weight. Anything to make the lathe easier turning without vibration. To tell you the truth, I actually have in my barn the two pulleys you need from a Royersford 21" upright post drill press. However, it's a long way from New Hampshire to Tactical Link and likely you'd be better off financially to try to get your pulleys locally. The $50 shipping fee plus the $20 I would probably want for the pulleys will likely buy you enough maple to make the two pulleys twice over, or purchase an entire scrap drill press from a junkyard locally. Anyway, hope this all helps. Best regards, Joe K in NH aka "Yankee Mechanic" ________ Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2001 03:49:24 -0500 From: "Randy" Subject: Re: Re: Why does my 12 X 36 chatter? Group: If you have ever watch brake drums being turned they are usually wrapped with a thick leather or rubber belt to remove the harmonic vibrations to stop the chatter marks. On disc brakes we always used a thin spring steel strap with lead weights attached to do the same thing. I believe that like John Meacham says anything to add a dampening force will help. Randy Pedersen ------- Date: Sun, 02 Sep 2001 19:46:27 +0000 From: Jon Elson Subject: Re: Problem with adjustments larry ice wrote: > Morning fellow Atlas owners > I have a problem with my 10" Atlas lathe I. certain many of you might > provide some info on. My 10" lathe appeared almost new when I bought it > last year and usually I am well satisified with the performance. Last > night however, I was turning an aluminum spacer for a Hudson straight > eight motor and I had a problem with chatter. I solved that with the > info on the chatter thread but later found the compound rest had > loosened to the point that I could detect serious movement. The power > cross feed appears ok but the tool post holder feed is really loose. > Perviously I had taken it off and cleaned everything before reassy. It > worked fine til now. I did have trouble adjusting the small acme thread > screw with the lock nut and handle to remove any slack although I > thought I had done the adjustment correctly. Guess not as this movement > has now returned and I wanted to get some advice before readjusting it. > I would appreciate any help from your experience. Iceman i used to have a 10" Atlas, and the compound was really the weak link on that lathe. There just isn't enough metal on it. The swivel base is usually OK, but you might pull it off and see if any swarf has worked under it. It has a longer lever arm from the tool tip, so if anything gets under it, it can rock easily. The dovetail slide is awfully small, and if the sides of the slide don't mate well over a good length, then the whole thing is sloppy. There isn't much to do but rescrape it! If the dovetail is loose enough that leadscrew backlash is causing trouble, then you need to tighten the gib screws. Because of the weakness of the slide, I kept the compound gib screws very tight most of the time. Anyway, slack in the leadscrew handles is not a serious problem. The wedging action of the lock nuts eventually work them loose, so you have to readjust every once in a while. You can't get all backlash out, as some is in the Acme nut, too. If you use the lantern-style toolpost, there is a shoulder screw in the bottom of the toolpost body that holds it to the T-plate. This screw can get loose, or the shoulder can wear, or the screw can pull apart. I used to tighten down the toolpost on my 10" that I broke this screw. I realized it was going, and was able to get it to hold together just long enough to make a new screw. I later replaced the whole toolpost with a dovetail quick-change toolpost. I will never go back! That was the singlemost important upgrade I did. It made an enormous improvement in stiffness of the lathe, as well as saving a great deal of time in setting tool height. One other Atlas trouble area is the gibs hidden UNDER the carriage, that keep the carriage from lifting up off the bed. This is usually only a problem when using a cutoff tool, where the infeed force is very high. There are laminated shims that set the height of the gib plate. If there is much looseness, you can peel a shim off. I use aluminum foil as a finer shim adjustment. Jon ------- Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2001 10:24:49 -0400 From: "William K. Macy" Subject: Re: Problem with adjustments I am finding this chatter thread most helpful as my Atlas/Craftsman 12in suffewrs from the same problem when using a cut off tool. The cross feed play is minimal, but the front of the carriage has noticeable vertical play. I think this is the problem for me using the lantern-type tool holder. On regular cuts chatter is not a problem. THE problem: how do I deetach the carriaaage apron from the carriage itself to get at the laminated shims you referred to? I do not have a complete manual, only an exploded diagram for a 10 in lathe. The apron seems to be held on to the carriage by a gear assembly about half way from the ends. Rather than removing every screw and/or bolt, I thought I'd stop now and seek assistance! Many thanks in advance, Regards, Bill ------- Date: Mon, 03 Sep 2001 17:44:18 +0000 From: Jon Elson Subject: Re: Problem with adjustments "William K. Macy" wrote: > I am finding this chatter thread most helpful as my Atlas/Craftsman > 12in suffewrs from the same problem when using a cut off tool. The > cross feed play is minimal, but the front of the carriage has > noticeable vertical play. I think this is the problem for me using > the lantern-type tool holder. On regular cuts chatter is not a > problem. THE problem: how do I deetach the carriaaage apron from the > carriage itself to get at the laminated shims you referred to? There are 2 very large phillips screws on the top of the carriage that hold the apron on. You have to remove the leadscrew first, and I think there is something else that interferes, but maybe not. if you have access to the back of the lathe, you don't need to take the apron off. When taking the apron off, there are two dowel pins that assure alignment. On some lathes, they can fall out and get lost, so see if they are loose and store them if they threaten to come out. > I do not have a complete manual, only an exploded diagram for a 10 in > lathe. The apron seems to be held on to the carriage by a gear > assembly about half way from the ends. Rather than removing every > screw and/or bolt, I thought I'd stop now and seek assistance! Right, this is the power crossfeed pickoff, and the leadscrew goes through it. Just remove the right end leadscrew bracket and slide the screw out through the apron. It is keyed on the left end. When using a standard cutoff tool, it is the BACK of the carriage that tends to lift, from the reaction to the infeed force. but, looseness at either the front or back gib should be fixed. There are steel (iron?) plates with two screws held to the bottom of the carriage. There are laminated shims behind these plates. be careful when reassembling as the screws can pinch the shim, making it accordion pleated! If removing one lamination is too much, you can add back about .0015" or so with kitchen aluminum foil. If your bed has any measurable wear, be sure to check the fit of these gibs at the tailstock end, as they will bind up at the least worn part of the bed. Jon ------- Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2001 13:33:40 -0000 From: rweersingx~xxworldnet.att.net Subject: Re: Problem with adjustments Hello Bill: The laminated shims are under the steel plates under the carriage and there is no need to take the apron off of the carriage. Take the tailstock and leadscrew off and slide the carriage assembly off of the right end of the lathe. Hope that helps Bob ------- Date: Sat, 8 Sep 2001 23:09:15 EDT From: sleykinx~xxaol.com Subject: Re: crossfeed nut zr1zr1x~xxnetzero.net writes: > I have read about a fix that cuts the nut and repositions the two > pieces, might try that myself. However I wonder how hard it would be > to make the crossfeed nut myself out of a piece of brass/bronze? It > appears that the thread is a special type and may be harder to do > than the standard 60 degree V style threads. Has anyone fabricated or > purchased a crossfeed nut/shaft lately, did you use a specific > variety of material for the crossfeed nut? There are several flavors of crossfeed nuts for the 12" Atlas lathes. The newer heavier crossslide nut has enough space on top that you can cut a slot with a hacksaw close to one end and add a caphead screw to pull the pieces closer together. A new nut would certainly be the best way .. as long as you get the right one. the two types I know of have the same thread but one is taller than the other. Regards Glenn Neff Medford, OR ------- Date: Sun, 9 Sep 2001 04:45:25 EDT From: BillHunleyx~xxaol.com Subject: Re: crossfeed nut Rick W -- If you make a new crossfeed nut for your lathe, you had best look at replacing the screw also. The nut seldom wears out without serious wear on the screw. A bad screw will quickly ruin your new nut. Bill Hunley ------- Date: Sun, 9 Sep 2001 06:46:41 -0400 From: "Wayne" Subject: Re: crossfeed nut I have done this to one of my 12" a/c lathe cross feed nuts. The procedure is to cut the nut,put the two pieces back on the screw, make them snug to each other,then drill and pin the two pieces back together. I'm pretty sure the list member is the one with the steam engine powered a/c 12" ;>o (Ron T) Wayne(rice)Burner ------- Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2001 05:16:15 +0000 From: Jon Elson Subject: Re: Craftsman 12" Bed Twist david.kuechenmeisterx~xxatl.viasat.com wrote: > I'm trying to remove the twist from my lathe bed. The lathe is old > enough to only have 3 mounting points. That seems to limit my means > of straightening the bed. If I go through the steps that I followed, > maybe someone can point out an error or make a suggestion that would > solve this problem. > > I have a wood platform of 4x4s bolted together and supported very > well by a heavy angle iron frame. I planed the 4x4s level and put an > oak stair tread on top for extra support. Then I was ready to mount > the lathe. > > After I read through a bunch of posts about levelling or > straightening a lathe bed, the only case that seemed to apply to my > situation was to bolt down the headstock, lightly tighten the > tailstock and see how true the bed was. I borrowed a precision > machinist level from work, leveled the headstock end as well as the > longitudinal axis of the bed with the levelling mounts on my stand. > I moved the level to the tailstock end and sure enough, the bed was > twisted. > > I put a couple shims under the back side of the level and that > brought the bubble to the center, so I figured that would be a good > amount of shimming to start with. I unbolted the lathe and put the > shims under the low side of the tailstock. Then I tightened up the > bolts rechecked the headstock and long axis, then checked the > tailstock. Of course the bed was still out of true by the same amount > that it had been before. That one bolt on the tailstock just won't > apply any torque to the bed. In fact, on the front side of the lathe, > I could put a couple shims between the foot and my stand. > > Not to be discouraged, I thought that with two bolts on the > headstock end I could remove the twist there. So, I undid everything, > removed the shims and bolted down the lathe. I levelled the tailstock > and long axis of the lathe with the levelling mounts and checked the > headstock end. Of course it was twisted. I noted which side was low > and put some shims under that bolt. Then I tightened everything up > expecting to see some improvement. > > It wasn't to be. In fact, after I rechecked the tailstock level > and looked at the headstock, I seemed to have increased the twist in > the bed. The level was showing that the low side, front, was even > lower than before. I made sure the rear bolt was tightened, it was. > > So about now I am pretty confused. If I was looking at a pretty > small amount of twist, I'd just let it go. This is about two lines > worth on the level, so it's pretty substantinal. No, it isn't, assuming we're talking about a master precision level. 2 major divisions is less than one sheet of typing paper on one end of the bed. (The bed is narrower than the level, so it magnifies shims between level and bed.) The most obvious thing to do is to attach some sort of frame to the tailstock end, so you can use shims and 2 bolts to torque the bed. This may be pretty difficult to do, however. The other obvious thing is to untwist the bed by force, but this is a pretty tricky operation. For the amount of twist, I think I'd try it, but very carefully. Is there any possibility that a burr or wear on the bed has made these readings show up like this? You might try the level at a number of points along the bed, and see if the twist is gradual all along the bed, or fairly localized. This would be important to know. If the twist is due to a crash, and is in one region only, then all attempts to untwist it, either by momentary force or steady load, will only be able to minimize it at best. You'd end up with waves and bumps along the bed. One trick is to run the crossslide off the back of the carriage and let the level ride the carriage up and down the bed. This is a pretty quick way to see how the tool will actually 'ride' along the workpiece. Anyway, once you know the characteristics of the twist a bit better, you might have a better idea what tricks will work to restore it, and what won't help much. I would be surprised if you could not overpower the twist temporarily with your bare hands. If the twist is gradual from end to end, I think you could probably untwist it by gently prying with a piece of 2 x 4 between the ways. You could probably put the level on the tailstock, and apply enough force to deflect it as far the opposite way as it goes in the rest condition, then check for any change at rest. Gradually increase the deflection until it starts to untwist. Leave it overnight and then check again. Note to all the flamers: I recommend this ONLY because we are talking about a twist of ARC SECONDS here, over the length of a lathe bed. If you could see this deflection easily, you would be getting into dangerous territory for cast iron. One other note for the Atlas/Craftsman type lathes. The drive belts apply a substantial load to a light lathe. Later "horizontal" countershaft machines have a bolt that is threaded in the countershaft bracket such that the head touches the headstock. By carefully adjusting that bolt, you can minimize the change in bed twist due to belt tension changes. The idea is all torque is carried by that bolt, not through the table and the bed's feet at the headstock end. Jon ------- Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2001 04:39:05 +0000 From: Jon Elson Subject: Re: Why does my 12 X 36 chatter? Ronald Thibault wrote: > > --------", and I can take 0.50" depth cuts with. > > It may be the steel you're using."----- > > Ron, Do you really mean 0.50" ? You must be using a very small > > longitudinal feed....or did you mean .050"?...or have you > > powered your lathe with one of your steam locomotives!?!? Well, this may be the problem. I can take a .200" cut in Teflon, but rarely take even a .050" cut in Aluminum. Sometimes I can do that, but it often leads to more trouble than I want to deal with. I usually rough at .030" in aluminum, and maybe when the setup is stiff and the material is free-machining, .020" or so in steels. Many of the things I turn are not conducive to good turning, so I may shy away from heavier cuts more due to workpiece conditions than machine conditions. But, I find on the lighter lathes you get a lot more done without prob- lems if you take rather rapid feeds with modest depth of cut. So, for a free-machining steel, I might use .020" depth of cut with a .050" feed per turn. With aluminum, I can sometimes do .030" DOC with a feed of .063" (16 TPI setting on QC) or something like that. The fast feed with modest DOC gives the best resistance to vibration buildup. Taking a deep cut, or using a cutting tool that makes a wide chip, combined with a slow feedrate is the perfect condition for vibration to build up. Each turn leaves chatter marks on the part, and the next turn, the machine vibrates in response to the chatter marks. the vibration can build to enormous magnitude quite suddenly, and the part will be ripped out of the chuck jaws or the tool will break. The worst thing is when the vibration causes the crossfeed screw to start increasing DOC. A tool with a fairly sharp point, or smaller radius, is best. Very large radius tools make those wide chips that cause trouble. Also, adjusting the tool to cut on a wide flank of the edge causes the same trouble. Jon ------- Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2001 00:35:22 -0500 From: "jerdal" Subject: Re: Why does my 12 X 36 chatter? sleykinx~xxaol.com wrote: >>> Ok .. I have to ask. Ron, are you talking.050 on the diameter or actual .050 infeed? If you are infeeding .050 and getting clean cuts without stalling the lathe I would like some enlightenment as to what tools, feeds and speeds you found that will do that. .025 infeed is about the best I can get without stalling the 1/2 hp motor on my 12". I use carbide and so am turning fairly fast but the feed rate is as slow as the QC will go.<<< > > It may be possible to get clean results with this configuration, > but it is not very likely. It is MUCH better to use less Depth of > Cut, and increase feed greatly when roughing. The only time > I use the slowest fine feed is for a fine finish cut. Sometimes I > even add in some change gears to get a slower feed when making > bearing-like parts. Jon Elson I gotta throw this in: tool grinding has a lot to do with it also. If you grind your tool to slice off the chips, as in putting a trough in the tool with one side forming the cutting edge, you can take what appears to be a huge depth of cut, and never chatter. Chips are sliced off, and slide around and out of the trough in a nice spiral. Chatter comes when there is a way for the tool to back away from the work and lessen the load so it snaps back. This then repeats. A typical low rake grind will have a substantial vector radially away from the work center, and so will force the tool away and lessen the load, then snap back. A higher rake will reduce this. With some materials, like Aluminum, this might not be a good idea, but it may work great on others. The high rake rotates the vectors so that there are fewer ways for the tool to move and reduce the forces significantly. This kills the chatter mechanism. I have had very successful results with this, increasing the depth of cut to as much as my motor could stand without stalling at that feed. If I recall, this was up to 0.125 depth of cut in steel, there are chips that wide in my chip barrel. Feed had to be low, sometimes very low, or it would stall. Of course, your results may differ, and my work was on a 10" flat belt Logan. Jerry ------- Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2001 21:43:56 -0000 From: michaelhenryx~xxmsn.com Subject: Re: Bearings --- In atlas_craftsmanx~xxy..., "Bill Kealey" wrote: > Out of curiousity, what's involved in pouring Babbit bearings? I > don't have this to worry about now, but, am always looking for > new-old toys and may need to do this sometime. Take a look at: http://www.metalwebnews.com/howto/babbitt/babbitt.html There is a link for an old 1920's booklet on babbitt bearings there that covers some of the procedures. You'll need an Adobe Acrobat Reader to view or print the file. ------- Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2001 10:11:22 EDT From: catboat15x~xxaol.com Subject: Re: Bearings In a message dated 9/15/01, elsonx~xxpico-systems.com writes: >You have to scrape down or machine away enough of the old babbit material >so there is a channel for the new babbit metal to flow into place. I'm not >sure whether you need to preheat the bearing substrate or the spindle. I have re-babbeted automobile rod bearings a few times. After you remove the old babbet you must tin the bare bearing with solder. Otherwise the babbet will not adhere to the bearing shell and want to turn with the shaft. Took a few tries to learn this from an old mechanic. As I remember we used sal-amoniac for a flux and bar solder to do the tinning. John Meacham High Desert of California, Palmdale, Littlerock. ------- Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 20:25:50 -0400 From: "Ebower" Subject: Re: Spindle bearings >>> I have a Craftsman 12x36 lathe that started to make loud high pitched sound that was unbearable. The lathe also immediately stops when powered down, something it did not do before. Also some roughness when turned freewheel by hand. Made a lot of ratteling and ringing noised when in use for a while now. I suspect spindle bearing failure but am not sure. Is there any other way to test my suspicions before I spend the big bucks for bearings? Could anything else cause those ringing/rattleing noises? These are Timken tapered roller bearings for Craftsman model 101.28910. I hope to save some money by purchasing said bearings from my local bearing dealer instead of from Clausing or Sears, is it a fallacy to think I can get them there cheaper? Does anyone know what the Timken part numbers are so that I can buy them from an outside source? Any help would be surely appreciated. Thank you. mannyjrlx~xxmsn.com <<< Clean the bearings and find on them what the number and maker is. Call MSC and ask for customer service and give them the numbers. They may have replacements. (I buy a lot of my bearings from them). Earl Bower bower machine ------- Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2001 13:52:44 EDT From: anthrhodesx~xxaol.com Subject: Re: 10F-11 Gearcase (from Digest Number 646) Might I suggest that one of you who has a broken gearcase measure your existing Zamac version and make a drawing for a "functional" replacement so that you can replicate it in iron or steel. Once you've made a replica and proved it on your lathe you might then post the drawing to the group files section as a service to others who need the same repair. If we all do this for repair, service, or accessory items for our various Atlas/Craftsman machines we will collectively be in a better position to properly maintain or even improve our equipment. Just a thought. Anthony Berkeley, Calif. ------- Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2001 14:50:40 -0700 From: "Jerald Hellmann" Subject: Re: Re: 10F-11 Gearcase (from Digest Number 646) Anthony, thanks for the suggestion. I will do just that in the near future, as I intend to open up the carriage apron soon to replace another part. In a similar vein, does anyone know of a list or other resource that would make replacement of any other parts less expensive, such as Boston Gear parts or such? I am new to this group, having acquired a somewhat abused 10-F that could use some minor parts missing or in need of replacement. Adding them up from the latest Clausing price list comes to $421. 33 plus shipping. I believe I might be better off to break my unit down and sell the parts on a piece basis and then use the income to purchase a nice used unit. (It's possible, I might even have some surplus cash remaining.) Also, is it acceptable to post a list of parts here, that one needs for repairs to their own unit, and conversely, some extra parts for sale or trade that are no longer needed? Is there a repository somewhere for drawings or sketches of any parts one may need and elect to make? I know I've asked a lot of questions, but these are areas of concern for me as a new member and 10-F owner. Thanks very much all replies. Jerry Hellmann (near Cincinnati) ------- Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2001 01:21:40 -0000 From: BillMcGoughx~xxmsn.com Subject: Re: 10F-11 Gearcase (from Digest Number 646) Mine too had broken.. I made a trace of the old one, and used it to build a pattern then cast it in AL.. a Very easy to machine project in the lathe and drill press. You will need a little better than 3/4 drill bit, or could probably bore it on a face plate and angle plate too. There is about a gijillion times more metal in my new one than the original. If the new one breaks, its because im doing something I shouldnt be doing ;) If you guys want the pattern to pass around, send me an address and a couple bucks for postage and its yours, however if you have the means and equipment to make the part... the pattern would be a no brainer. Bill FWIW: If you're not set up to do the cast, and enough people want a casting only (you machine it yourself) I can make a few up for whatever you feel is a fair price. ------- Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 18:49:14 -0500 From: "Charles Brumbelow" Subject: Re: Only a newbie would ask! From: > Sometime ago I read a post where a sober machinist(I assume) got fed > up with his carriage being free to run near the headstock, where the > ways are worn , and it jamming further down the bed where there was > less wear. This hero? just got out his best file and sanded the ways > down until the carriage moved freely. > While i am shocked by his audacity, i'm wondering whether to do the > same thing myself, for the same reason. I have a 12"x36" Craftsman > /Atlas #101.07403, and also a heavy 3"x48"Starret straight edge. I'm > assuming that the wear on the ways would all be at the rear, since > that part acts against the cutting forces, so would file down only the > rear vertical edge. I can measure about 0.003" difference from > headstock to tailstock end. Is this a sound idea, or should one of you > put a gun to my head and say "Put the file down, buddy!"? Any > ideas/comments would be greatly welcome. Richard - Scraping the ways is a common rebuilding operation for lathes, but I've never heard of successfully filing them. Know anyone with a large surface grinder who might -- for a reasonable fee -- clamp the bed down and take a few thousandths off? As I recall, surface grinding the ways is what Atlas did when manufacturing these lathes. Charles ------- Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 19:38:31 -0500 From: "M K (Skip)Campbell Jr." Subject: Re: Only a newbie would ask! I had this done on former Atlas 12X36 at a local grinding shop, Southwest Grinding in Ft. Worth. They used a Blanchard grinder a took about .004 off the top for $32.00. This greatly helped but didn't solve the whole problem. I did remove the groove in the top front way and most of the dings. Most of the wear is on the top of the front way and the bottom of the rear and of course some on the front and rear edges. I think the 32.00 was well worth the investment. I would think if someone was going to scrape a lathe, having the top blanchard ground would sure save a lot (if not most) of the time involved at a very reasonable price. Regards, Skip Campbell Ft. Worth, TEXAS Craftsman 12X36 101.28990 http://www.mkctools.com ------- Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 21:36:58 EDT From: LouD31M066x~xxaol.com Subject: Re: Only a newbie would ask! While we are at it have you any experience in removing and replacing headstock on 6 inch atlas? Does removing headstock get you into serious trouble trying to line up centerline of way and centerline of spindle when it comes time to put it back together? I am in middle of replacing lots of parts in headstock and thought it would be easier to clean out dirt if headstock and ways were separated. Is this is a step beyond wisdom and into unneeded frustration? Grinding ways seems straight foreward enough if you cannot accept condition of ways. How critical is condition of way? Where is the line between acceptable marginal and downright crappy? I suspect it must have a lot to do with the type of work you do and the basic quality of accuracy built into the lathe. Cost... what is fair and how do you judge if grinder knows how to do grind just enough and just right? Louis ------- Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 22:59:16 -0700 From: S1 Subject: Re: Only a newbie would ask! I had a 109 that had unevenly worn ways, and I filed down the high spots on the V-ways. I know a master machinist that had an Atlas 618 lathe 20 years ago, and he filed the the bed down also to level them out. So it has been done. I noticed an immediate improvement with the 109 I had. It didn't solve the problem completely, but it helped greatly. If you do decide to file the ways, proceed VERY carefully, You can be as accurate as a surface grinder, but it takes a very long time. On machines that don't have hardened ways, scraping the ways on heavily used machines is a common enough practice if the rest of the machine is in good shape. Gabe ------- Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 05:25:12 +0000 From: Jon Elson Subject: Re: Only a newbie would ask! richardmedwayx~xxsprintmail.com wrote: > less wear. This hero? just got out his best file and sanded the ways > down until the carriage moved freely.ideas/comments greatly welcome. Absolutely, DO NOT DO THIS! There IS a technique, calld hand scraping, that will fix any problems like this. The Atlas is especially easy, because the ways do not have dovetails or inverted VEEs. But, you don't just file away by eye. You use a precision straightedge, or a surface plate, to find the high spots and gradually cut them down. Otherwise, you could get a machine that operates very smoothly, but cuts barrel-shaped objects! With the file and the naked eye, you would almost certainly end up with "bannanna-shaped" bed ways! Don't use the Starrett straight edge until you've tested it on a known- good surface plate. Then, you have to watch out for hand heat warping the straightedge when you handle it. It is quite tricky to use a 48" straight edge without causing problems due to the heat from your hands. I doubt, seriously, that all the wear is at the rear vertical face. I suspect with spotting dye, or even magic marker, you would be able to detect easily measurable wear on the front and top, too. (Yes, wear on the front and back is more important to accuracy, that's true.) A file might be a reasonable tool for the first cutting pass on a heavily worn bed, but you would want to change to a much more precise and controllable tool after getting the bulk of the high spots down. That is what the scrapers are for. They have only one slightly curved edge, so they remove metal exactly where the spotting dye shows it needs to come off. Jon ------- Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 06:37:20 -0700 From: Mark Fraser Subject: Headstock on 6-inch Atlas I can't imagine why it would NOT be a good idea. It took me a little bit of prying to "unglue" mine from the bed, but if you think about it, it's just held on with a few screws, and the alignment with the ways and the tailstock is something that should be checked in any event. I took mine off to (hopefully) skim a few thou from the ways, so that the carriage can be moved more than a few inches away from the headstock, while being snug when *near* the headstock. Gonna try a monster mill for the job (not my mill, and I trust the owner's judgement!) mark ------- Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 19:46:18 -0400 From: James Meyer Subject: Re: Only a newbie would ask! Back when I got my brand new Atlas 618 I noticed that the ways were too tight at one end of the bed if I took the slack out of the gibbs at the other end. It wasn't wear since the lathe was new. I figured that they milled the ways and one end of the bed was or got hotter than the other and when the whole thing got to the same temperature, one end was smaller than the other. I used some grinding compound on the ways and slid the carriage back and forth while I gradually snugged down on the gibbs. I concentrated on the tight end and when I got through the whole thing was the same size all the way down. The other thing I did was to completely dissasemble the lathe and clean it up. There were a lot of sharp edges everywhere that I took off lest they work their way off and get into something sensitive later. The 618 was a cheap lathe (otherwise I wouldn't have bought it) and they couldn't afford to take the time to really finish all the pieces the way more expensive machines would have been done. Jim ------- Date: Thu, 04 Oct 2001 18:14:10 +0000 From: Jon Elson Subject: Re: bull gear pin keeps disengaging? egjamesonx~xxaol.com wrote: > the bull gear of my (recently refurbished) Atlas 10" keeps > disengaging when the load gets a little high. If it stays engaged > there is plenty of torque to make the cut it just seems that a heavy > load causes the gear pin to disengage from the step pulley. is this > supposed to happen or is the pin assembly worn out. if it is worn > out, how do i replace the pin only. any help is appreciated. Wear is likely. First, check the setscrew that holds the bull gear in place. If loose, it allows the gear to creep back and forth on the spindle. If the keyway is worn on the bull gear, you have a problem, as wobbling action may keep it loose, and work the pin back. There is supposed to be a detent - a pretty firm one on the two Atlas lathes I've owned. it is the typical ball and spring arrangement. With greasy fingers, it is almost impossible to pull the pin if the detent is working right. If it pulls easily, that is most likely your problem. If you take the pin apart carelessly, the ball and or spring can be lost. I think there is a setscrew that backs up the spring, but some lathes may not have this. On those, you have to make up a dowel the right diameter to hold the ball in while the pin is installed. Finally, wear is also possible. that is harder to fix. You will only know this is the problem by disassembly, if all other checks don't turn up the cause. Jon ------- Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 09:30:00 -0400 From: Richard Parker Subject: Re: set screws >> I vaguely recall seeing a suggestion that one can put lead shot under a setscrew before tightening it in order to prevent damage to the threads of the bolt that is being discouraged from movement. I am working on an old Parks planer and the screws that hold the chip breaker in place have setscrews to prevent them loosening up. I had a difficult time removing them initially and would like to avoid further damage. Does anyone out there have knowledge or experience in regard to this issue? Randy in Winnipeg << In applications where a setscrew will bear upon another threaded (or closley finished) part, I usually machine a rod from brass or nylon that is a few thousandths u/s the tap drill diameter of the set screw. Then, I part the rod into sections about .060 long or so, and drop one of these in the setscrew hole prior to tightening the screw. I suppose that a few pellets of lead shot would provide the same protection, but the brass or nylon plugs will last longer and add a bit of "class" to the job. I've also annealed the end of setscrews (they tend to be fairly hard), and drilled a blind hole in the end that's substantailly u/s the minor diameter of the screw. Then, I press-fit a piece of nylon rod directly into the end of the screw. This is handy when the screw must be removed repeatedly (for adjustments, etc), because the nylon bearing stays with the screw. Best, Rich ------- Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2001 06:01:55 -0700 From: Mark Fraser Subject: Way grinding (or milling) Thanks to my friend Marcus, my 6x24 is now a much better lathe.... Firstly, while surface grinding is obviously going to give a much better finish, the number of shops able to handle a piece this big is limited. Mills, however, might be more plentiful in your area. Many shops think angled (rather than orthogonal) surfaces when you call up and ask about regrinding lathe ways. Setup for those would be a nightmare, and much more expensive. You'll likely get a "no" or an estimate of many hundreds of dollars unless you clarify it up front. Take off the headstock, the feet, the tailstock, carriage, leadscrew and rack - the latter is located with 2 pins that should pull out easily (or pushed out from the back). These are riveted to the rack - careful! What I watched (and occasionally helped with): Bed upside-down on mill table, hold down using webs at ends, but from the inside facing out, to avoid making the bed wow upward in the center. Skiff the surfaces where the feet attach; these will be the reference surfaces for the rest of the job. Right side up: Hold down same way, use an indicator to make sure the front (or rear) outside way surface is parallel to the table along the X axis - you'll be milling that surface so you don't want to cut 1/8 of an inch off 1 end and zip from the other, right? This will take a few minutes, but well worth it. The advantages of power-feed will be obvious if it's a manual rig. First cut, using a flycutter having a swath just slightly wider than the width of the top of one way rail. Objective is to just skiff off enough to bring unworn areas (such as under the headstock) down to the same elevation as the worst worn areas. Don't sweat the dings from the (previous owner's) hammer or chuck jaws - we're after bearing surface here, not photogenicity. Do both rails, proceed slowly, keep a uniform pace or it'll look crappy and you may have some arc-shaped grooves deeper than you want them otherwise. Ideally, you'll have to make another pass, which is good exercise and a good way to avoid taking *too much* off, which will complicate your life on reassembly. Next, an endmill for the front and back surfaces. (cut with the VERTICAL portion of the endmill....) Same rules apply, not too much, don't worry about slight rounding of the way corners from earlier wear, a mm of "radiusing" won't kill you. Use a climbing cut for a nice finish. Mine was bowed 5 thou or so - front and back were parallel but arc-shaped! Second last - a flycutter with a slightly radiused tip (did I mention that at the very start?) pointing UPWARD to do the underside of the ways - outside only, not down the slot. Again, don't take off too much. Last, redo the top surfaces, as the bed has probably relaxed a little. This showed up with mine as different way thicknesses at the ends vs. the middle of the bed (along the long axis, of course). Got mine to within a thou by micrometer for thickness, same for top surface using an indicator on the quill. Use something to break the nice sharp edges on the way corners, or you'll make nice cuts on your fingers when you pick it up. Wipe off all the cast iron dust, put on a light coat of oil and you're in business. Now, put the headstock on - clean up all the grunge - old oil , filings etc. so that it rests on the nice shiny ways, not on the crud. You may have decided to lap and polish the ways first, by the way; shouln't be necessary for any reason but appearance. Next, at the rear / bottom of the carriage is a plate that may have some shims under it, with the gib between the plate and the casting. At best, you'll have to take out shims to snugly sandwich the rear way between the plate and the bearing surface of the carriage. At worst you'll have to BOTH trim down the width of the gib (which on mine was a tight fit with the 13 thou of shims still in place) and maybe skiff some material off the carriage. You'd like this to be a nice fit with the way, so that you can control vibration, especially during cutoff operations. Helps with accuracy, too. The front way uses a block next to the thread indicator for reducing vertical play on the front side. One problem noted by others is excessive clearance between the handwheel pinion and the rack - this has increased by the amount you took off the top of the ways. Mine is ok, thankfully.... Next, I'll attack the cross slide dovetails, which are also badly worn... mark ------- Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2001 12:20:45 EDT From: steamclassx~xxaol.com Subject: Re: Way grinding (or milling) Just to let everyone know...... I had my ways ground on my 54" atlas bed done at Brown & Covey of Kansas City. They did a supurb Job!! They took .oo5 off the top and .oo3 off the sides + they squared up the bed at a minimal cost of only 175.00. The finish is absolutely beautifull!!! This company makes its living at rebuilding manufacturing equipment. I would refer anyone to have them do your ways on your Atlas lathe. The surface grinder they have is at least 18' in length!! Good luck !! John. ------- Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2001 22:01:47 +0000 From: Jon Elson Subject: Re: Craftsman 12 in Spindle Stuck in Headstock kplus13x~xxyahoo.com wrote: > I began the morning trying to put a preload on the spindle in order > to create the drag mentioned in the Atlas tech note on spindle removal/ > replacement. The spindle rotates pretty freely when cold and I > thought it would be a good idea to tighten it up. I found I couldn't > turn the collar on the left side of the spindle, nor could I slide the > spindle back and forth in the headstock any amount once the collar was > removed. > I followed the tech note to the point where it said to drive out the > spindle. The spindle doesn't budge. Have I forgotten to undo > something? I've removed the left-most collar and the drive gear that it > captured. The woodruff key is also out. I've loosened the set screws(2) > on the collar to the right of the bearing and on the large gear that > engages with the back gears. Do I just need to beat on the spindle > harder? Can the spindle corrode to the bearings? This lathe is a recent > acquisition and I don't know how well the previous owner lubed it or > what he used. The only thing still holding it in is the rear bearing inner race. These have a rounded area near the ID bore that tends to pack grit into the interference fit of the bearing on the spindle. It will cause the bearing to bind on the spindle. So, you have to do a bunch of cleaning in that groove before trying to drive the spindle out. I made some steel discs that have a step on the OD, and act as push plates for the spindle. I use these with a Craftsman gear puller. I made one disc for each end of the spindle (one to push it out, one to push it back in). Note there is also a key in the bull gear, in addition to the setscrew. Jon ------- Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2001 17:17:04 EST From: LouD31M066x~xxaol.com Subject: Re: Craftsman 12 in Spindle Stuck in Headstock STOP...now is not the time to reach for a bigger hammer! Review tech notes on web site. Is it possible there is something overlooked still clamping spindle? It is also possible the infamous nefarious crud is at work. Remove per instructions and reinstall in reverse order works in the manual, but not in my experience. At this point I would suggest some cleaning to reveal the state of things, to allow you to form a mental image of problem and to introduce some solvent into areas that might be gummed up with crud since the year 1. I am not sure which lathe you are working on and whether you are removing or installing, but, of one thing I am sure whatever gets bent, broken or lost will hurt your wallet. I am of opinion that machine tools are regarded by many as self cleaning and self oiling and that time spent looking after equipment is time wasted. It is unfortunate that this is not correct. When someone with high hopes and little experience acquires a new/old toy the first thing needed is lots of TLC. It takes time and costs money and unfortunately as you have discovered you can't get there from here situations arise. All I can say to encourage you is keep trying you are not alone in trying to revive a good machine. Louis ------- Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2001 17:24:54 EST From: HUNLEY31x~xxaol.com Subject: Re: Craftsman 12 in Spindle Stuck in Headstock Louis is right. Take your time. It took me 2 evenings to remove my spindle. Finally I tried heat. It worked but progress was still slow. Only luck keep me from damaging my bearings. You know that you don't want to do that. Give some solvent time to work. Hank ------- Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2001 23:38:22 -0400 From: "Harvey Noel" Subject: Re: Craftsman 12 in Spindle Stuck in Headstock I just took the spindle out of my 10" Atlas and it came out hard. Large hammer and block of wood. Remove the collar on the left and file off any burs left by the set screw if there are any dings. Loosen the set screws in the collar on the left. After the obvious is removed be sure the set screw in the large spindle gear to the right is loose. It has probably left a burr that causes the spindle to bind. Shim the large gear on the right against the casting with wood. Drive the spindle until the key in the large gear can be seen. Remove the key with pliers. Surprise it comes out easy. Then you can drive the spindle out to the right by the wooden block and hammer on the right. Good luck HTH. ------- Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2001 23:47:35 -0400 From: "Harvey Noel" Subject: Re: Craftsman 12 in Spindle Stuck in Headstock Just one additional comment. When everything was cleaned and reassembled the spindle went in slick and easy I was able to push the spindle through by hand. But on the way out it took some pretty heavy banging.. ------- Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2001 10:20:47 -0500 From: Ronald Thibault Subject: Re: Craftsman 12 in Spindle Stuck in Headstock Dave; Are you sure you have the Timkin Bearing Headstock? Are the bearing housings solid, or do they come apart with 2 bolts? If the latter, its' a Babbitt bearing model. If it is the timkin model, there is a woodruff key under the larger spindle gear (bullgear). Tap the spindle back in place, then slide the gear as far to the right as possible, tap the spindle to the right until the key is just short of the shield, then fish out the key with needle nose pliers. You may have to wiggle the spindle and gear back and forth a little. Ron Thibault Warrenville, SC USA http://pages.prodigy.net/thibaultr/ ------- Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2001 15:41:29 -0000 From: kplus13x~xxyahoo.com Subject: Re: Craftsman 12 in Spindle Stuck in Headstock Thanks for the suggestions. It seems like I'm in the same spot as Harvey. Everything that is supposed to be loose, is and the spindle seems to be bound to the Timken bearings inner races. >From some light taps with a dead-blow hammer, I can see that the bearings seem to be coming out of the seats. Front and rear, that is. Jon, I'm interested in your discs and I wish that the lathe were ready to make a set. There don't appear to be any "secret" set screws that the Atlas tech notes failed to mention. For now, I think I will just scrape what I can with a dental pick and try LPS on what's left. I don't think there is any corrosion, just some bonding between the inner bearing races and the spindle aided by what appears to have been WD-40 or some other oil that leaves a varnish behind. Maybe some of the electrical parts cleaner that Ron mentioned using on his old lathe would work to remove the varnish. Thanks again, Dave Kuechenmeister ------- Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2001 09:57:35 -0600 From: Jim Irwin Subject: Re: Re: Craftsman 12 in Spindle Stuck in Headstock Try some really good penetrating oil such as Kroil, maybe even with some lacquer thinner to help cut the crud. May take a day or more of soaking and working it to get it loose. May have to apply some heat, as in hair dryer applied for an hour or more (won't work fast). Best regards, Jim Irwin ------- Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2001 16:17:32 -0600 From: "Randy" Subject: Re: Re: Craftsman 12 in Spindle Stuck in Headstock Dave: Over the years I have tried the following on tight fitting shafts. After making sure everything is clean I use a heat lamp to heat the area with the bearings, this will take quite a while, make sure you don't get it so close that it burns the paint. The heat will transfer to everything it shines on so after it is way to hot to touch either end of your spindle remove the lamp and put ice cubes inside the spindle bore this will shrink the spindle away from the heated bearings and help it slide out. It may just slide right out or you may still have to tap on it. I would not hit very hard on the spindle you will actually dimple the bearing race on the far end, if it takes that much of a blow I would definitely use Jon's method of the gear puller a steady pressure should not dimple the bearing races like the impact of hit after hit with a heavy hammer. Randy Pedersen Atlas 618 South Bend 9" A South Bend 9" C Salina, KS ------- Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2001 20:00:01 EST From: LouD31M066x~xxaol.com Subject: Re: Re: Craftsman 12 in Spindle Stuck in Headstock Just made disc to remove inner races on 10121400 (6 inch lathe). Worked like a charm. If you want it drop me a line. No charge and no further need. I will have making a slightly larger disc to replace bearing races. It really helps to have another lathe up and running. This was a cut and try job and it worked so aaa is a cut and try job. Louis ------- Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2001 21:33:52 EST From: LouD31M066x~xxaol.com Subject: Re: Craftsman 12 in Spindle Stuck in Headstock I failed to note before I started to write you are working a 12 inch lathe not a six inch lathe so disc I made is certainly not right for you. 6 inch and 12 inch lathes seem to be scale up or scale down of each other (depending on your point of view) so what holds true for one is probably good for the other. I had to drive spindle out using leadhammer and piece of hardwood broomstick.( lead hammer is a truly wonderful thing to have when needed). I was not concerned about spindle as I have to install a new one, ditto for bearings. When spindle is driven out left hand bearing cone and rollers strip off spindle and right hand cone and rollers remain on spindle. Inner races stay in headstock. I made up a disc by cut and try (ie take it out of chuck on lathe that I was using to turn it and try it for size) until I had a disc just small enough to fit hole in headstock and Just big enough to catch edge of bearing race. You can use threaded rod to make a puller or if you are impatient like me fasten to bolt and give it a couple whacks and bearing races just jumps out of headstock. Bearing on spindle can be pressed or driven off... If you are at point where you are ready to remove spindle and everything is slacked off follow the instructions on atlas tech hints, double check everthing and apply gentle persuasion as needed. If you need a disk made, let me know the size. A quick job not much involved. Note you will need two different size discs. A smaller diameter to remove and a larger diameter to replace bearing races. Both should be snug fit, but,not drag in bore. When you look at headstock you will see what I am talking about and where to take measurements of diameter. Louis ------- Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2001 18:58:29 -0500 From: Jude Miller Subject: Finally Fixed Chatter Problem, 6 Inch A/C Some of my first posts to this list were about a mysterious chatter problem I had when turning more than a few inches away from the tailstock center. Well, I finally fixed this. The problem was that I had lots of slop underneath the carriage, 1 thou on the far side, and 4 thou (!) on the near side. Cutting force pushes the carriage down, but if any chatter starts to develop, the tool "bounces" upward after digging in slightly. If the carriage is loose vertically, this leads to massive chatter. I fixed this by removing the carriage and removing laminations from the shims on the bottom of the carriage. The far side shim had 1 thou laminations which were very difficult to remove cleanly. The near side had 2 thou laminations. The near side was a bit tight when I finished. I slacked the screws holding the shims and restraining plates very slightly, then ran the carriage back and forth manually one hundred times, wiping and re-oiling every ten passes or so. Now, all the chatter is gone! By careful shaping of the cutting tools and improving my technique, I was able to minimize chatter even with the slop. In effect, the slop made me much more careful when setting up cuts. Cutting off was still pretty iffy but I just cut off a half-inch piece of drill rod with no trouble. Worked so well I made some washers out of it for practice. Well, enough chatter for now :-) Jude Miller ------- Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 06:39:28 +0100 From: Subject: Re: Name plate removal > Hi all, I'm in the process of refurbishing my TH42, at this time I'm > taking it apart and cleaning/repainting. Does anyone have trick to > take off the name plates/threading chart without damaging the plates? I did not remove the plate, it is not necessary at all. Some tape on it, well cut with a cutter has saved it from the oil remover, the primer and the 2 finishing coats. The plate is riveted. Jean-CLaude, Switzerland www.homestead.com/turnandmill ------- Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 15:40:16 -0000 From: extratec2001x~xxyahoo.com Subject: Re: Name plate removal I'm also in the process of restoring my lathe (late model 12") and have come across the same problem of removing the name, belt change and quick change plates. My plates showed years of use, so I just ordered a new set from clausing for under $20. The old ones were easily removed using a small punch. It was well worth it to me because now my lathe looks brand new! ------- Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 09:45:18 -0600 From: "Koepke, Kevin" Subject: RE: Name plate removal The name plates are held in place with semi-tubular rivets which were applied with a small bench press, and can be drilled out from the reverse side. The threading chart needs to be removed first so you can get to the name plates back side. On a TH42, it's easy to get to the back side of the gear cover to remove its nameplate. On the other hand, the vertical countershaft model, the nameplate is ussually mounted near the base of the headstock, which makes it hard to get to the back side. You can use a center punch on the head to center drill. ------- Date: Sun, 02 Dec 2001 07:04:04 -0500 From: Ronald Thibault Subject: Re: Name plate removal >Hi all, I'm in the process of refurbishing my TH42, at this time I'm >taking it apart and cleaning/repainting. Does anyone have trick to >take off the name plates/threading chart without damaging the plates? If the hole for the drive rivets goes all the way through the casting, you may be able to drive them out from the back. Failing that I have had luck using a Dremel tool with a grinding stone to remove most of the head, then drive the shaft of the rivet in further, breaking off the remains of the head. This is not a perfect solution (unless your hand is steadier than mine), but it does work. I agree with Jean-Claude, about leaving them in place if possible. I had to remove mine as there was rust under the headstock speed chart, and I put a new bed on the lathe, and had to retain the original name plate from the old bed. P.S. A coat of Future Floor Polish applied with a rag to the face of the name plate after cleaning, does wonders for the appearance. Ron Thibault Warrenville, SC USA http://pages.prodigy.net/thibaultr/ ------- Date: Sat, 01 Dec 2001 06:00:10 +0000 From: Jon Elson Subject: Re: Question............. Manuel Sanchez wrote: > Does anyone know if - when you have the lathe bed re-ground, > does it keep it's hardened ways, or does it need to be hardened again? > Or was it ever hardened? It would be about 5 - 10 thousands > of an inch grind. And also, how deep is the hardening anyway? > My lathe is a 12 inch Craftsman 1937 model. Atlas beds are most certainly NOT hardened from the factory. Regrinding 10 thousandths off a hardened bed would remove the hardened layer, but you don't have one (Which is one reason the beds do wear so much). Jon ------- Date: Thu, 06 Dec 2001 23:12:39 -0000 From: "rkueffer25" Subject: Under Cabinet Lathe I really like the clean look of the under cabinet models, just wondering if it was possible to convert an Atlas lathe (motor & pulleys mounted above) to an under cabinet model(motor & pulleys mounted below the lathe bed). Building the cabinet would be pretty straightforward but would placing the belts & pulleys under the cabinet be out of the question. Do the under cabinet models use the same pulley/shaft combination? Has anyone done this or would it be better off to try to locate a Atlas cabinet to start with? As I'm right now cleaning mine up to use and I have never seen one of these under cabinet models in person (only pictures) I would like any insight on such a project, pro or con. ------- Date: Thu, 06 Dec 2001 23:48:55 -0000 From: "extratec2001" Subject: Re: Under Cabinet Lathe I have one of the late Model 12" Atlas lathes on the underdrive cabinet. My lathe started life as a bench top unit, and I converted it over to fit the factor cabinet. Inside the headstock, you need to replace the 4-groove pulley with the original 2-groove pulley from a lathe that was originally on the cabinet stand. I was lucky enough to find that pulley at Sobel Machine in NJ. He will mail anywhere and is a very honest guy. Regis ------- Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 01:14:49 -0000 From: "jt27278" Subject: Crunch! My early 10" Atlas lathe made an expensive noise last night and I hope someone can help me. I'm not sure what started the problem, probably a chip where it shouldn't be, but the result was a broken zamak part that I don't think can be repaired. The broken part is the bracket in the apron that holds the hand wheel gears. The bracket holds a shaft with a small gear on one end that meshes with the rack, and a larger gear that meshes with the gear on the hand wheel. A call to Sobel confirmed my fears that this part is no longer available. My lathe is the early version that does not have power cross feed and uses a 5/8" lead screw. Sobel's only suggestion was to upgrade to a power cross feed apron and a 3/4" lead screw. I would prefer not to do this as it is quite expensive. So, does anyone have one of these goodies they could part with? Alternatively, I'm thinking of trying to mill a replacement from a block of aluminum. My milling skills are minimal, so some encouragement, or a better idea will be greatly appreciated. Thanks, Jeff Taylor ------- Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 20:51:50 EST From: LouD31M066x~xxaol.com Subject: Re: Crunch! If part is not available from clausing/atlas or some other source consider fabricating part up from individual pieces of brass. It might be easier to make several simple pieces and use silver soldering or fasteners to assemble. I have considered this part briefly and think getting the measurements right the first time might be more luck than planning. If you have a good set of measurements and make a series of small simple parts you may be able to fudge or rework as needed to arrive at a usable replacement. I suppose the best approach is to use the skills knowledge you have confidence in although there is much to be said for projects and approaches that force you to grow. Just thoughts from a newbie. Louis ------- Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 08:12:37 -0000 From: "rweersing1947" Subject: Re: Crunch! The part you need is #9-11 which Clausing doesn't make anymore. I have an early 10-D model and a 10-F model lathe and I compaired the 9-11 with 10F-11 gear case and it doesn't look like it would fit. It was close, but the early 10-D has a shorter apron and one of the three screws wouldn't have anything to attach to. That leaves you with few choices, buy a used 9-11 gear case, buy a used 10-D carriage on ebay, sometimes you can pick up the whole 10-D carriage for cheap, buy a 9" carrage and take off the part, or convert it to a F series carrage. If you decide to convert to the F series you will have to buy most of the carriage(the tool post slide and the upper swivel are the same as your D model, all the rest is different.), a 3/4" lead screw, and the 10F-16 bearing that holds the right end of the leadscrew. You will gain a power crossfeed and be able to find parts but it will be expensive. Good luck Bob ------- Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 20:43:45 -0800 From: Ronald Thibault Subject: Re: Crunch! Jeff; I fixed a broken gear bracket on my lathe with a brass strip and epoxy. I wrote it up on my site in the Atlas section (address below). Perhaps you can fix yours with the same method. Ron Thibault http://pages.prodigy.net/thibaultr/ ------- Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 19:43:56 +0000 From: Jon Elson Subject: Re: Part needed... hutchlk wrote: > I would like a complete saddle assy' for a 12" Atlas lathe. My > present one does not have power crossfeed and I would like to change. > If anyone happens to know of one I would appreciate you letting me know. Be careful. Your lathe is a model 'D'. The model 'F' lathe had the power crossfeed, but it also had a 3/4" leadscrew with a keyway in it. At the least, you would need to replace the leadscrew, too. There might be other things that won't fit, so the parts the leadscrew attaches to, like the right-end bearing and the reversing gearbox, might also need to be changed. I assume you have a 5/8" leadscrew, which was standard with the 'D' model. A few during the transition came with the 3/4", just to keep us confused. Jon ------- Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 19:47:13 +0000 From: Jon Elson Subject: Re: Part needed... ARRGH! There's MORE! Note than a bunch of 12" model 'D' beds were actually 10" beds, with the 3/8" thick ways, rather than the later 12" bed with the 1/2" thickness. Measure the vertical thickness of the bed ways. The front- back dimension of the ways were different, also. So, you can't just grab any 12" saddle and throw it on there without checking the measurements. It depends on whether your lathe was pre- or post-1938, I think. Jon ------- Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 20:07:40 -0000 From: "hutchlk" Subject: Thanks Jon...my Atlas lathe does indeed have the 3/8" ways instead of the 1/2". I have both lead screws for it. I think the previous owner ordered a new lead screw and as it came 3/4" he didn't know what to do with it. The old lead screw is 5/8" and this would work if I could get the end bearing for it. Does anyone want to buy a 3/4" lead screw? Larry in WI ------- Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 20:56:38 -0000 From: "tomin130" Subject: Re: Part needed... One more thing and I stand to be corrected on this. I think the aprons that have the power infeed all use the 3/4" lead screw. If you look at your current setup, the lead screw passes through the bracket that holds the rack gears. This bracket won't fit the "F" apron as the mounting holes are not the same and the hole is only big enough for the 5/8" screw. Also, the keyed bevel gear that rides on the lead screw to drive the infeed is 3/4" ID. You'd better hold onto that 3/4" lead screw to fit the "F" style apron if you can find one. One more thing, is your saddle and apron one piece or is the apron attached with two large Phillips head screws from the top? If it is one piece, yours is a "D" model and I don't think that was made for power infeed. You should still be able to fit an "F" apron and saddle to your bed, however, keeping in mind what Jon said about the way dimensions. I remember when I called Clausing to order the parts diagram for my 10F, the first thing he asked me was what size lead screw I had. It does make a difference. Hope that helps. Tom ------- Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2001 08:13:24 +0000 From: Jon Elson Subject: Re: Re: 12" Atlas - excessive vibration kplus13 wrote: > I've finally reached the point where I only have to solve the problem > of excessive vibration, too. > I have replaced the worn belts with Powertwist link belts and noticed > some improvement. I also tightened some loose fasteners in the > countershaft bracket and lined up the motor pulley with the > countershaft pulley. That helped a little, too. > When I run at medium to low rpms, the lathe shakes pretty badly. The > lathe doesn't vibrate until I engage the headstock. I've measured the > runout on the countershaft spindle at around a thou, and on the > headstock spindle the TIR is too small to measure with my indicator. > It's probably better than a tenth. The pulleys appear to be undamaged, > and I've run out of ideas to locate the source of the vibration. > > I'd welcome any suggestions about what to check next. > Additionally, how loud are the back gears when they are engaged. My > clatter like crazy. Loud enough to consider wearing earplugs if my > hearing weren't already so bad. I think you are pointing us towards the solution. The step pulley on the spindle is nounted on a bearing, so it can spin when using the backgear. They all go 'ding-a-ding-a-ding' when in backgear, but if it is really loud, then the bearings are shot. There is a setscrew in the bottom of one of the pulley grooves that allows you to oil these bearings, but someone didn't bother on your lathe, apparently. If the step pulley is running off center, it will unbalance the spindle. The other thing I can think of is a missing pinion in the chuck. That will really throw the spindle out of balance. Most shaky Atlas lathes are due to bent countershaft pulleys or the shaft, itself. You might be able to separate this by running it with the back gear disengaged, but the direct drive pin in the bull gear pulled, too. if it still shakes, it has to be the countershaft or step pulley. If it only shakes in direct drive, (back gear is too slow for spindle imbalance to matter) then it must be the spindle or chuck. Try with the chuck off. (I've seen out-of-balance chucks.) You should be able to manually arrange to spin the countershaft without the spindle pulley, to see if the countershaft is out of balance. Jon ------- Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2001 17:42:57 -0600 (CST) From: dswrx~xxwebtv.net Subject: Re: Back assembly The pulley assembly that is in line with the spindle is not directly connected to the spindle, but rides on bearings on the spindle. power is transmitted from it to the spindle through (thru, if you're in a hurry) a pin that drives the bull (large gear) that is directly connected to the spindle. If you disengage this pin, the pulley assembly will rotate without driving the spindle. The smaller gear on the side away from the spindle nose is directly connected to the pulley assembly. If you rotate the gear cluster that is behind (back of) the spindle by moving the handle located adjacent to the back gear, it will engage the teeth of the gears on the spindle shaft. This will reduce the spindle speed and increase the amount of torque. Hope this helps. Leo ------- Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2001 00:09:43 -0600 From: "Jerry Foulds" Subject: Oil Cups with Timkens I have been following the discussion about oil cup wicks, etc. An observation that may be helpful (although it doesn't have to do with wicks) is that the bearing oil cups on the Atlas lathe headstock fitted with Timkens directs the oil over and around the outside of the bearing race. The oil runs to the bottom of the bearing race and pools there. The only way oil gets to the bearing rollers and race surfaces is if enough oil pools to raise the oil level to contact these components. By this time you there is enough oil accumulated to seep by the bearing covers and make a mess for days. I drilled a small hole in the face of the outside bearing covers to allow oil to be squirted directly on the top of the roller cages where it needs to be. A small rubber plug seals the hole. Jerry Foulds O.P., KS ------- Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2001 07:28:57 +0000 From: Jon Elson Subject: Re: Re: 12" Atlas - excessive vibration kplus13 wrote: >Thanks, I'll do a few more experiments today. I haven't been running the >lathe with a chuck, just because it would add one more unknown to the >system. I haven't done any testing with the back gears engaged, either. >The volume makes me think that there is something else wrong with >them. I'll look into the bearing problem as a separate issue. Ohh - it makes the clanging in direct drive! Well, something is very loose, for sure. It is possible one of the bushings in the spindle step pulley have disintegrated, or been pushed out by careless disassembly of the spindle (not hard to do if you don't have the manual.) >After re-reading my post with Jon's comments, I'm starting to >suspect problems in the headstock spindle, as well. I didn't replace >the tapered bearings when I removed and replaced the spindle because >they looked okay. Possibly they are not; I would think there would be >some runout on the spindle nose, if that were the case. Not necessarily. They can still run pretty true when in bad shape. The vibrations from mangled rollers will make very small wiggles in the spindle rotation. Shot roller bearings make a rumbling sort of noise, much different from clanging of totally loose journal bearings. Jon ------- Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2001 14:10:15 -0000 From: "kplus13" Subject: Re: 12" Atlas - excessive vibration I didn't do a very good job on that last post. The lathe isn't especially noisy in direct drive. Just when the back gears are engaged. However, the washing machine-like vibration doesn't happen when I disengage the direct drive pin and allow the reduction gears to spin freely. That's only when I allow the headstock spindle to spin, either by engaging the back gears or by switching to direct drive. I took the headstock spindle out and looked more closely at the bushings on the gear and pulley. There is some wear on the pulley; for the relatively small amount of money Clausing wants, I'll replace them all. Any tips on how to drive them out and replace them without causing any damage? I should put the headstock spindle on v-blocks and measure the runout, but I don't think there is much to measure. On the other hand, I've plenty of time before the new bushings arrive, so why not? Thanks for the tips on the gear lube. I think I'm quite close to making this a very tight lathe. I'm looking forward to actually making something with it. Sincerely, Dave Kuechenmeister ------- Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2001 10:45:35 -0800 From: Ronald Thibault Subject: Re: Re: 12" Atlas - excessive vibration Dave; Another source of vibration may be the motor/motor mount. On my old lathe the mount for the screw which applies the locking force between the countershaft and motor mounting plate was broken. I was just using the weight of the motor to hold tension on the belt. Well the motor would climb slightly, fall back as the belt slipped minutely, and then repeat. This caused the whole lathe to shake at a fair rate, with the motor bouncing around nicely! While this did not cause terrible problems, I'm sure it did not help the surface finish any. I sold that lathe before adding a tie-down for the mount to the bench, but would have done so if I had kept it. Ron Thibault Warrenville, SC USA ------- Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2002 08:56:34 -0500 From: "Tom Few" Subject: Re: Lead Screw Bearing >> metalcraft12001 wrote: >>> Evidently a small chip wedged in the carriage gears on my 10" D Model >>> and of course sheared the lead screw bearing. I called Atlas but they >>> only had the bearing for the F Model. Would anyone know where one >>> might be available. Needless to say this happened in the middle of a >>> job I have promised for next week. Thanks Pat Dillon >> >> Is this the right hand support for the leadscrew, under the tailstock? >> You might be able to jury rig some fix temporarily. I'm sure Dave Sobel >> can come up with the whole bracket. It is supposed to shear in such a >> way that you can fix it on the lathe, without needing the leadscrew to >> make the repair part. It is supposed to punch out the thin bushing, and >> then the leadscrew 'unscrews' through the bushing until you get the >> machine stopped. Jon > Jon, Thanks for the reply. Yes it is the bushing under the tailstock end > but it sheared in half and as you probably know it's unweldable. I'm am > trying to make a temp replacement out of steel until I can find the > original bushing. Pat Dillon Hi Pat: I had the same thing happen to my 10" lathe... I used a piece of 2"X1/4 aluminum angle about 2 in long to make a bracket to attach to the bed... I then cleaned up the piece of the bearing and milled a small flat spot on it ... I carefully drilled and tapped a 1/4-20 hole into the bearing holder...then by more luck than skill I'm sure. I marked and drilled holes to mount everything together. I was always going to replace this makeshift part with the right one... but this worked out so well that I am still using it ... If I can be of any help ... send me an email at rtffewx~xxhotmail.com Regards Tom -------- Date: Sun, 06 Jan 2002 09:54:39 -0500 From: Brian Green Subject: Re: Lead Screw Bearing Yes, the same thing happened to me on my 10x42. What I did as a temporary fix was to make a small support plate, held by the normal mounting screws, then stick the whole lot together with a "steel" epoxy. Let it set for 48hrs, trim the edged and mount it. It worked so well it's still in use months later, and I've stopped checking it for cracks. I guess most of the stresses involved must be absorbed at the gearbox end. Good luck, Brian ------- Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2002 12:05:42 -0500 From: Jude Miller Subject: Re: Rick Kruger wrote: > What is the pitch of the Atlas 6" leadscrew? 16 threads per inch. Best, Jude Miller ------- Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2002 23:56:16 -0600 From: "jerdal" Subject: Re: bent headstock spindle That is quite common. New old stock spindles are not available, but they can be made fairly easily, and some folks on the list do make them, including E Bower, I think. Drawings are in the AAdocs file in the rec.crafts.metalworking drop box. The jacobs chuck can cause that problem due to the long stick out relative to spindle diameter. You start out 3 diameters from the support and go from there. I would suggest using tailstock center for essentially ANY turning on the 109. One fix is to make a spindle with 3/4-16 nose thread, it is harder to bend, and uses available taig and Sherline spindle tooling. Jerry ------- From: Ronald Thibault Date: Tue Jan 15, 2002 10:01 pm Subject: Re: [atlas_craftsman] Lead Screw Bearing >> Thanks for the reply. Yes it is the bushing under the tailstock end but it sheared in half and as you probably know it's unweldable. I'm trying to make a temp.replacement out of steel until I can find the original bushing. << Check out the Atlas section on my site for diagrams on a breakaway bearing. Ron Thibault Warrenville, SC USA http://pages.prodigy.net/thibaultr/ ------- Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2002 08:35:46 -0800 From: Mark Fraser Subject: Re: Six Inch Lathe (ways) Mine had two problems: 1. wear near the headstock, resulted in either sloppiness in that area, or binding when the carriage was more than a couple of inches away. 2. Bowing BOTH front/back and vertically, by as much as 7-8 thou. Similar problems on the cross slide. I suspect the castings were very "young" when machined, finding their natural, post-stress form as the months and years passed. So, unless you have a very good straightedge and lots of patience, scraping may become a medium-duration career. I was lucky in that a friend let me use his big mill, and flycutters did a very nice job. I suppose I could do some lapping, but it "feels" very smooth both to the touch and when using the handwheels. Important to remember - the bed IS flexible, so anchor it to the table of the mill or grinder in pretty much the same way as it will be bolted to its normal bench. Believe it or not, you can distort it a few thou very easily. Also, taking too much off the top surface of the "near" way can result in the drive pinion and rack not engaging properly. Moglice or similar to build up the undersurface of the carriage may be the best way to attack this, but only if there is a real problem. I also had to fiddle with shims and the dimensions of the gib on the rear of the carriage, to get it nice and snug. This made a huge difference in vibration levels. Get everything nice and clean - grit free before reassembling, so that you don't do some unwanted lapping without knowing it. As a test, I rigged up my milling vise - into the normal toolpost T-slot on the compound - and while it isn't the most rigid setup in the world, it is at least usable, which it wasn't before the tune-up. It's a small Palmgren. mark ------- Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 04:23:20 -0000 From: "martello_nick" Subject: How to check for inside spindle taper wobble? Dear List, Don't know how to describe this but here goes: As I was cleaning and inspecting my 12" 1937 Atlas tonight, I noticed a slight wobble at higher speed when I put a Jacob's chuck into the spindle using a #2-3 collet. There was also a definite number of thump thump noises I hadn't heard before. (Course I had to turn my radio off first to hear them.) I began to get worried about my Babbitt bearings but there doesn't seem to be any side to side movement here. Checked for end play and tightened up the end collar nut a tad but that didn't help. Checking around I found the smaller jackshaft pulley setscrew loose, so I tightened that and took some of the noise away. Found the bull gear setscrew also loose and tightened that and all the noise went away. Wobble was still there! I don't see any wobble on the outside end of the spindle. The 3 jaw and 4 jaw chuck do not seem to wobble, it's only when I put something inside the spindle. (I tried several collets and tools, a long reamer and two other jacobs chucks as well as a large 1/2" cutter. I can't believe all of these tools are bad. Could this mean the inside of my spindle is out of round? How can I check this? If I can check this and find it bad, how do I fix it? Thanks Nick ------- Date: Sat, 09 Feb 2002 22:26:21 -0700 From: Steve K Subject: Re: How to check for inside spindle taper wobble? HI Nick: There is probably a slight burr inside the spindle...somewhere on the inside taper itself. A burr will cause ALL tools inserted to wobble, even though a chuck, which is threaded to the outside of the spindle will not wobble. Hopefully, it is just a burr, because you can usually stone it off. If the spindle taper is worn excessively, you have a problem. Sometimes you can feel a burr with your little finger inserted into spindle, and rotate the shaft BY HAND... NOT under power!!. A better way is to use a dial test indicator (DTI) with the tip registering in 2-3 places in the taper... start at the mouth, then go deeper about an 1/8" of an inch, and then deeper another 1/8" of an inch. Each time rotate the spindle by hand and watch for runout, or, a "blip" where the needle jumps over the hopeful burr. If you find a burr, the best way to stone it (and remove the burr) is to get a matching taper reamer (usually a MT #2 or #3). Insert the reamer in a tail stock chuck, advance it into the headstock spindle, and turn the reamer, by hand again, one or two revolutions. You should not need any more, if you do, the taper is very badly worn and it IS screwed up. Use plenty of threading oil, (or kerosene, or even WD 40 in a pinch), but keep the reamer lubricated and GENTLY turn the reamer and apply pressure with the tailstock so the reamer does cut. You can feel it cut. The headstock spindle does not rotate (in fact, lock it if you can), although if you are in a daring mood, you can rotate the spindle under power, with the reamer in the tailstock chuck. This is using what would called a "chucking" reamer -- i.e. using a reamer under power. I would not do this, because if you require that much metal to be removed, your taper is really screwed up. You are into another whole issue. If you do not have a reamer, and there is a RAISED burr, you can sometime "sand" it out with strip of emory paper or Silicon Carbide paper. This is tricky because you can easily screw up the taper by sanding too much. Again, use a lubricant and wrap the paper around a dowel. Even better, turn a wooden plug that approximates the taper, wrap the sandpaper around that, and insert it into the spindle taper. Again, be gentle, feel for the burr and sand it until the burr is gone by rotating the spindle. I highly recommend you do not sand with an "in and out" motion... too easy to screw up the taper. If the above fails, you will quite possibly need to have the taper reground or re-machined. A lot of home shop machinists do it, so you can too. The trick is to get the compound set up to the correct angle, and either rig up a grinder, with a tiny wheel, or a tiny boring bar, and literally remachine the taper. Be aware that you will make taper hole larger. But providing it is not too much larger, most taper attachments will still fit. They will go in deeper, but they will still fit. Good luck... don't panic because this is a repairable fix.... Steve Koschmann [NOTE: SEE REAMING FILE FOR MORSE TAPER REAMER USE] ------- Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 07:11:39 +0000 From: Jon Elson Subject: Re: How to check for inside spindle taper wobble? The first thing to do is just stick your finger into the taper, and turn the spindle by hand (NEVER under power, it can grab and rip your finger off). Feel for burrs, mars and especially nasty galling on the taper. You will, of course, find some, but if you find a big one, there is your answer. You can also look into the spindle with a flashlight and see what the surface looks like. Now, how to fix it. if there is just one major burr, you can remove it with a round stone, fine round file or a custom curved scraping tool. A small divot (low spot) on the taper will not affect accuracy at all. Any high spot will force the taper off center and/or off axis. If there is a whole ring where a tool of some sort spun in the taper, then you really need some surgery there. My preference is to duplicate the correct taper with a master tool and the compound (or a taper attachment, if you are lucky enough to have one.) What you do is rig a die grinder, toolpost grinder, Dremel or whatever you can cobble together, and put a small grinding stone in the grinder. Set it up so it can make it all the way into the taper of the spindle, which requires a rather long extension of the stone. Adjust the swivel on the compound until the stone follows the taper of the spindle as closely as you can determine it. Take a grinding pass inside the spindle, taking off just a tiny amount of material. You can paint the ID with magic marker to tell where cutting is being done. After getting a pretty even grind along the inside of the taper, take a known-good Morse taper arbor or other tool, and twist it into the spindle, and wring it in there a bit. Use magic marker or Prussian Blue "Hi Spot" marking compound to indicate the area where the two tapers touch. You will have to adjust the compound swivel until you get the grinding to fix the damaged area, as well as to regrind the internal taper to match the angle of the arbor you are using as a master. If you start off with the angle about right, you can do this job while only taking off a few thousandths of an inch, so you won't have tools going too deeply into the taper. With this procedure, even if the spindle is BENT, the ID runs true. One caution - if your compound slide is badly worn, it may no longer slide straight, making cutting tapers with it a very tricky and dangerous procedure. One way to test it is to align the compound with the bed, and use the compound to turn a piece of stock. You won't get perfectly consistant diameter without a lot of fooling around, but what you need to look for is a "barrel" shape, or the opposite. This will indicate the compound makes a curving path, and will give a measure of the scale of the problem. If the piece you turn this way is a consistant taper along its length, then your compound slide runs straight. Jon ------- Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 03:02:10 -0000 From: "martello_nick" Subject: Wobble Gone! A big thanks to both Steve K and Jon E. for the help on diagnosing my ID spindle wobble. You both hit it on the head. Found a ring (kind of a ridge-not a groove) built up way inside probably from a spinning collet or tool. I think it may have been a bad collet since it was way in the back of the taper. I could feel the raised edge when I slid a screwdriver down the shaft. I took Jon's advice and rigged up a rube goldberg on the compound with my new dremel tool. (I can't believe the wife got that for me for Xmas without even asking!) It came with an flexible shaft so I set that up on the compound per your instructions and it reached halfway down the spindle. I just had to touch it a bit while rotating by hand and it smoothed down. BTW, I found some cone shaped stones that Uncle Clyde had in his home shop. These were about the same taper as a collet and the spindle. Could he have used these to stone down the inside of the spindle? OK, here come more questions: 1. How can I keep this from happening again? I have 2 or 3 #2-#3 collets which I use to hold Jacob chucks and milling tools. One looks more grungy than the other two. Should I inspect all of them to make sure the outer case is smooth? I have a wire brush on the other side of my grinder and could brush them up. 2. Will smoothing them down keep them from spinning inside the spindle? 3. How can you tell if the taper is right? 4. This is a 1937 12" Atlas with original Babbitt spindle bearings. Where can I find a tapered reamer for this and what size should I be looking for? Thanks guys! Nick ------- Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 22:20:56 -0700 From: Steve K Subject: Re: Wobble Gone! Glad you found the problem Nick.... and congrats on a good fix. To further answer your questions, here are some ideas; 1. KEEP THE COLLECTS, drill bits, chucks-- et all CLEAN CLEAN CLEAN. Use a soft rag an wipe both the taper in the spindle and the whatever you are inserting -- BEFORE you insert anything. I often will use a bit of paint thinner or alcohol to rub the metal clean. Using paint thinner or alcohol evaporates very fast, leaving no residue. 2. If you have "dirty" collets, first clean up with a solvent (like above, or kerosene) and I recommend using a woven nylon mesh pad to clean them by hand. This is MUCH better than a wire wheel, unless the wire wheel is a VERY fine grit. YOu run the risk of literally scratching the metal with a wire wheel in a grinder. Not a good thing. 3. To test the taper, you need to know the taper from the manufacturer, or from the anyone here who has one. The standard ones are a Morse Taper (MT) # 2 or #3 for this size lathe, but there a quite few others. Call Atlas/Clausingn in Goshen IN and they will tell you. You should also get the manual for them. I think Atlas lathes used a MT #3 in the headstock spindle and a #2 in the tailstock spindle, but don't quote me. Then simply buy a new good, known arbor that matches the taper. As Jone E. outlines, use chalk (regular school chalk, blue or red is easier to see). Make three lines down the length of the good arbor (about 120 Degrees apart). Insert in to the spindle and twist gently once. If the arbor is good, you will see the chalk coating all the way around the inside of spindle. If you don't then the taper is mangled, but I think you will find that since you removed the ridge, your taper is just fine. Maybe not 100% perfect and brand new, but plenty good for daily use. 4. Tapered reamers are available from a bunch of sources -- MSC www.mscdirect.com: kitts industrial tools, Enco www.useenco.com harbor freight www.harborfreighttools.com etc. etc. Bunch of places. Good luck. Steve Koschmann ------- Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 05:48:41 +0000 From: Jon Elson Subject: Re: Wobble Gone! If a collet has damage that makes it sit on a high spot, rather than the entire OD of the collet, then spinning is much more likely. Make sure your drawbolt is tight. > 3. How can you tell if the taper is right? > 4. This is a 1937 12" Atlas with original Babbitt spindle bearings. > Where can I find a tapered reamer for this and what size should I be > looking for? I don't really think a tapered reamer is a good idea, as it has no way to assure concentricity. A much better way is to grind it true with the compound. To check the accuracy of the taper, you need some tool with a solid male taper, like a drill, center or arbor of some sort. You put Prussian Blue (sold in tool catalogs as "Hi Spot", but the same stuff is available at art stores) on one part (the female taper is probably best in this case) then you insert the male taper and genty twist it to transfer the dye. You then remove it and examine the pattern of blue on the taper. If you have a short ring at one end, the tapers don't match. If you have a long section of the taper that has an even layer of dye on it, then the tapers are very accurately mating up with each other. When using the compound slide, you just have to adjust the swivel in tiny increments and grind again until you get the desired dye pattern. Jon ------- Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 18:40:34 -0000 From: "martello_nick" Subject: Re: Wobble Gone! AhHA! Now I understand. I have a simple MT #2 or #3 that accepts the squarish end of things like cutters, jacobs chucks etc. into my spindle. Perhaps I don't have the right items? Can you give me a sample part number to scan for on HF or MSC? I have been using the Morse Taper to accept these items perhaps incorrectly but that is all that I found with the tooling handed down from "Uncle Clyde" (previous lather owner and machinist). Thanks, Nick ------- Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 20:16:18 -0000 From: "stevenhkb" Subject: Re: Wobble Gone! Nick, sounds like a tap holding collet, Morse taper outside with round hole inside ending in a square pocket. This holds a tap end in the square pocket, usually has a drawbar threaded hole in the end to tighten it into the spindle. For tooling in the spindle, like drills or mill cutters, what you want is a Morse taper milling cutter holder, which is solid and has a precision hole to put drills or mill cutters into, with a setscrew to hold them in place in the Morse taper holder. You grind a flat on the drill/cutter to recieve the setscrew, flat should be angled so the drill/cutter tightens if it tries to come out from drilling /cutting force. This also needs a drawbar, most Atlas use 3/8" coarse thread. Make from all-thread and some nuts and washers if you are crude. I have made them from old MT#3 drill shanks, they are soft on the inside and can be cut off where the drill portion ends and bored true and reamed to hold a cutter snug, can't have any looseness here. Steve ------- Date: Fri, 01 Mar 2002 05:15:27 -0000 From: "chris111148198" Subject: Re: Re-finishing flat ways > I've been wondering about having an Automotive machine shop pass a > flat-wayed bed across the grinder he uses to true-up engine heads. > Any thoughts on this? John Been watching this thread on getting a bed reground. I would think twice about sending lathe to auto machine shop. The type of grinding equipment in machine shops is geared so as most operations are idiot proof. I do not mean to say that all shops are like this. What i mean is that valve grinders, head resurfacers, and such are made so that the operator has only to put the head in and take off enough to clean up. Where as a lathe bed can have wear most likely where the carriage was running (or twisted). So, if I was grinding it I would go to a real grinding shop and tell them you want it ground first with the flat side down and shimed where the bed has been worn (where the carriage was running). If this is not done the electromagnet will pull the bed down AND WHEN IT IS RELEASED IT WILL SPRING OUTWARD. After the bottom side is done I would tell them to dust the flat side to clean up. You could mic the width, if it is only a couple thou I might be inclined to let it go . To grind the edges requires the grinder hand to clamp the bed against a couple of large angle plates. Again you are at his mercy, because he will have to indicate the inside rail surfaces parallel . You might also mic the rails seperately micing under the head stock and at the ends as the tail stock rode on the inside. You can mike the edge thickness after he completes the top. If you want the bottom edge ground it will be another setup (more money). I would not do this unless it was really worn. As far as price 75$ ought to be for about i hr for top and bottom. Almost retired grinder hand Chris Miller ------- Date: Fri, 01 Mar 2002 07:23:37 +0000 From: Jon Elson Subject: Re: Re-finishing flat ways Remember that you have to get the front and rear vertical surfaces (edge of bed ways) ground not only flat, but parallel, too! These are the surfaces that constrain the carriage front and back, and are actually more critical than the top surface of the bed. Jon ------- Date: Fri, 01 Mar 2002 07:28:40 +0000 From: Jon Elson Subject: Re: Grinding Flat Ways > I have read some posts indicating this had been successfully done. > Since grinding across the flats does remove some metal, there must be > a change in the distance from the top of the ways to the lead screw-- > does this affect how the half-nuts grasp the screw? Is it necessary > to lower the lead screw by the amount ground off the ways? It depends on the lathe. On both the 10 and 12" Atlas machines, it will automatically correct for it. On the 10", the QC gearbox or the reversing box for the leadscrew mounts directly to the TOP of the bed, so it will drop that end the same amount. You need to file out the bolt holes in the right end LS bracket to bring that end down. On the 12", the QC or reversing box mounts to the headstock, which also sits directly on the bed top surface, so it works out the same way. [BUT IN A FOLLOW UP MSG FROM JON]: OOps. In my previous reply, I said the leadscrew (at least the left end) will come down automatically. That's true, but misses the big omission. That is, the rack pinion on the carriage will drop, and the rack WON'T. This is a lot harder to adjust. The only way I know that is easy is to file out the screw holes and holes for the dowel pins, and lower the rack. I have also heard of a method of raising the entire carriage rack drive mechanism by boring out and placing eccentric bushings into the holes for the carriage handwheel, but it seems like this will misalign the way the bracket holds the bevel gear that pickes power off the leadscrew keyway. these are both on the same bracket behind the apron. So, I'm a little skeptical of that scheme. Jon ------- Date: Fri, 01 Mar 2002 13:10:16 -0000 From: "stevenhkb" Subject: Re: Re-finishing flat ways I had a Atlas 42" bed done by a competent grinder shop many years ago, cost an arm and a leg tho, got a decent job. He did top and sides only. You are right about fixturing to avoid changes when the mag is turned off, my shop would not do the underside of the rails because he was afraid of having to true up his wheel too much to achieve a "Square" edge. He didn't realize it did not have to be that square. I hand scraped it to relieve binding at the end of the bed on the underside. Long and tiresome job. I think you handle the change in dimensions by removing shims somewhere to keep the shaft in the center of the half-nuts. Not sure about this. Steve ------- Date: Fri, 01 Mar 2002 14:59:36 -0000 From: "k3vyl" Subject: Re: Grinding Flat Ways I had my TV42 bed reground several years ago. The wear was .004 at the worst spot. The work was done locally, but John at JC Bogeman, a shop that regularly does this sort of thing, briefed me on how it is done. The bottom of the casting must be trued up first,with the bed ways on the table of the grinder. The wear on the bed will not interfere with this since it is only in a small area. The casting is then turned over and the ways trued up. Large angle plates are used to set up for the edges, and this is probably something the engine shop doesn't have on hand. Everything went back together ok with the removal of shims on the rear of the saddle. My machine now has no room for adjustment in that area. The bottom side of the bed was not done, and there is slight wear there. This makes the saddle just a little tight at the tailstock end, but fully functional. I also repaired all the other things that were wrong with the machine, including a very irritating broken bull gear lock. I would say the job was worthwhile. RC ------- Date: Fri, 1 Mar 2002 18:00:24 EST From: LouD31M066x~xxaol.com Subject: Re: Re: Re-finishing flat ways Yeah I got one or two. 1) Engine blocks and heads warp considerable so auto machine shop work can involve removing significant thickness of metal whereas all you may need with lathe bed is to even up lathe bed wear by accurately removing 0.001 or possible a tad more. 2) A surface acceptable to mechanic may be flat to plus or minus 0.001 or even more under a straight edge whereas a surface needed for a true lathe bed my be plus or minus 0.0000 or as close as you can get. The standards of acceptable accuracy between machine tool and products made by a machine tool are all downhill. That is a machine can not produce parts to a higher level of precision than the machine and usually somewhat less. I think you should have a heart to heart to talk with person who is doing the work and discuss whether his machine and standards of precision will result in an improved machine or not. Anyway there is my $0.00000002 worth. Louis ------- Date: Fri, 01 Mar 2002 21:43:46 -0500 From: David Beierl Subject: Re: Grinding Flat Ways 3/1/2002, LouD31M066x~xxaol.com wrote: >Secondly please correct me if I am wrong,but, would't thinning >rails mean you would need to add to thickness of shims not subtract? >Or am I missing something big time? The shims are on the bottom of the saddle, making the opening larger; so if the bed gets thinner you have to remove some to make it smaller. Incidentally, on my 618 I recently removed one of the laminations from the rear of the carriage. I had to add back .001 to make it fit onto the ways again. This has noticeably improved parting off from in front, to the point where I often do it the "normal" way instead of using the reversed-tool arrangement I mentioned a few weeks ago. But I'm still saving up for one of Earl Bowers's lovely table extensions. David Beierl - Providence, RI USA 6 (or 3)" Atlas Model 618 lathe ca. 1941 ------- Date: Sat, 2 Mar 2002 10:57:07 EST From: HUNLEY31x~xxaol.com Subject: Shim question I've taken apart my 101.07403 and have located my problem. No shims under the carriage. CLAUSING list the parts (shims) on their parts list but has no listing on their price sheets. Can I use common shim stock or is there something special about them? Do they go under the carriage or up on the bearing plate? What holds them in place? Thanks, Hank ------- Date: Sat, 02 Mar 2002 11:39:24 -0500 From: David Beierl Subject: Re: Shim question > Can I use common shim stock or is theresomething special about them? > Do they go under the carriage or up on the bearing plate? > What holds them in place? Nothing special except shape, and the original is a laminated pack so you can peel off individual leaves to reduce the clearance. It goes between carriage and bearing plate, increasing the separation. It's squeezed hard between the two, so holding it on isn't an issue. david ------- Date: Sat, 02 Mar 2002 11:48:23 -0500 From: Jude Miller Subject: Re: Shim question The original shims are laminated so that you can remove layers to correct wear of the bed rails. The shims go under the bearing plate. This way if the rail wears 0.002 inches, you remove a layer or two from the shim and the bearing plate is now that much closer to the bottom of the carriage. The shims on the 101.07401 are a sort of flat E shape with several holes. The laminated shim stock is available from MSC for around $15 for a piece 8 x 24 x 0.010 inches, with 0.002 inch laminations. When I adjusted mine, one of the shims had 0.002 inch laminations, but the other seemed to be only 0.001 inch thick. It was really hard to peel off that one. You could figure out the thickness you need and make it out of regular shim stock instead. I suspect that this will last practically forever in the home shop. Best, Jude Miller ------- Date: Sat, 02 Mar 2002 14:03:01 -0500 From: David Beierl Subject: Re: Shim question (Jude, David) At 01:08 PM 3/2/2002, HUNLEY31x~xxaol.com wrote: >> I think I understand. Very odd as I have no shims at all and can slip a .003 feeler gage under the carriage at the ways (if I lift hard enough). By your description the shims are removed to reduce play, I need to add shims on the other side of the bearing plate to close the "gap," to the ways. I'll have to take it apart for another look. << Make sure that there isn't a shim pack stuck to the carriage -- it's not very obtrusive and mine was stuck tight. >> *** It's always something***. Do you think I can mill off a couple of thousandths in the appropriate place on the bearing plate and start over with a new set of shims? Is .003-.004 worth the trouble? << On my stiff-as-a-noodle 618, removing .002 from the *front* then putting back .001 so I could get the carriage on the ways made a noticeable difference. Or at least I noticed one, whether it was there or not. Parting off seemed to become more possible. I'd been doing it from the rear, with an upside-down tool. Great results but very inconvenient. Now I don't seem to need to do it that way so often. I also have a feeling that it improved chatter in general, but that one's not so clear-cut. Using proper way oil (Vactra #2) certainly helped -- I can keep gibs tighter and still be able to move things. >> I'm kinda new at this stuff. << ditto, even though it was my grandfather's lathe and I grew up with it. Gradually getting better at it. Right now I'm struggling with using the milling adapter which waves around like a stalk of wheat in a stiff breeze. david David Beierl - Providence, RI USA ------- Date: Sat, 02 Mar 2002 15:46:11 -0500 From: Jude Miller Subject: Re: Shim question (Jude, David) > description the shims are removed to reduce play, I need to add shims > on the other side of the bearing plate to close the "gap," to the ways. > Do you think I can mill off a couple of thousandths in the appropriate > place on the bearing plate and start over with a new set of shims? > Is.003-.004 worth the trouble? I'm kinda new at this stuff. I had about 0.003 play at the front of the carriage and about 0.002 at the back. Parting is noticeably better since I thinned the shims, and there seems to be less chatter as well. I ended up a little tight on the front side after I removed two layers of shims, but one hundred passes back and forth by hand fixed this. I had to add a little way oil every few passes. I came to the same conclusion you did about the bearing plate. I only have about 0.004 left on the front, and I might want to grind the bed some day. I thought that milling the appropriate amount off the part of the bearing plate that contacts the shim, i.e. the inner half of the top surface, would let me do this. In your case, I would try measuring the play with a feeler gauge, then mill off maybe 0.0015 extra. This will let you use standard 0.001, 0.0015, or 0.002 shim stock instead of laminated. I wouldn't take more off the bearing plate than you have to. Good luck, Jude Miller ------- Date: Sun, 03 Mar 2002 00:58:27 -0000 From: "dkosciusko2" Subject: Re: Shim question (Jude, David) > I think I understand. Very odd as I have no shims at all My lathe came with 0.010" of shims between the carriage and the carriage bearing plate. If you have no shims, there must be noticeable wear in one or more of four places: 1. the outside edge of the top of the ways; 2. the outside edge of the bottom of the ways; 3. the carriage bearing plate where it contacts the bottom way; or 4. the carriage where it contacts the top way. The simplest way to correct for that much wear (if it really exists) is to have 0.005" ground/milled off the TOP of the carriage bearing plate where it contacts the shims BUT NOT WHERE IT CONTACTS THE BOTTOM OF THE WAYS. Removing metal from the carriage casting anywhere is not a good solution. To check quickly for wear on the ways measure the thickness of the outside edges of both ways every two inches from headstock to the end of the lathe (past the tailstock). The wear you are indicating your lathe has will show up in the differences. No differences, no wear on the ways. ------- Date: Sun, 03 Mar 2002 02:16:03 -0000 From: "turbervilleg" Subject: Re: Shim question (Jude, David) I was curious about the wear on my ways and checked it in several places. The worst variance is .003". I know this is 3 times the factory specification, am I in big trouble or is there hope for this bed? As a beginner I don't expect I'll be able to produce work much better than this anyway, at least until I learn a thing or two. I saw the earlier discussions on bed grinding, is there a recommended shop who specializes in repairing these Atlas beds? thanks, Greg ------- Date: Sun, 03 Mar 2002 07:04:25 +0000 From: Jon Elson Subject: Re: Shim question > Can I use common shim stock or is there > something special about them? Do they go under the carriage or up > on the bearing plate? What holds them in place? At least on the 10 and 12" Atlas-made machines (the 07403 is a 6", I think?) The shims are between the bottom of the carriage and the gib plates that ride on the underside of the bed. These keep the carriage from lifting up off the bed. The laminated shims have .004" laminations, so I trim them anyway with aluminum foil (slightly over .001"). What is your problem? The carriage is able to lift up off the bed? If the shims are already out, then you may be able to turn the gib plates around or over to get a new, unworn surface. You may need to add shims back to keep it from binding at the extremes of travel. Common shim stock will work fine, you have to carefully make two holes for the screws to clear. If the holes are too small, the screw threads can grab the shim and distort it, which will make the gib plate sit crooked or just too far from the bed. Jon ------- Date: Sun, 03 Mar 2002 07:08:29 +0000 From: Jon Elson Subject: Re: Shim question (Jude, David) HUNLEY31x~xxaol.com wrote: > Do you think I can mill off a couple of thousandths in the > appropriate place on the bearing plate and start over with a > new set of shims? Is.003-.004 worth the trouble? It sounds like your bed may have been reground. You will have to either mill the underside of the carriage or the part of the gib plate that faces it, so the part of the gib plate that bears on the bottom of the bed will be closer. Jon ------- Date: Sun, 3 Mar 2002 09:32:26 EST From: HUNLEY31x~xxaol.com Subject: Re: Re: Shim question (Jude, David and all) THE END You were right, they were there, just hard to find. Looked like they were covered with some type of shellac. I made the proper adjustments and all seems well. Just in case your interested. The ways were measured and found to be .001 off on the front near the headstock, not bad (better than my ability). I removed one .003 shim from both sides. That tightened the saddle nicely. Two more shims left maybe 3. Now to find a Band-Aid, getting low, time to replenish. Thanks again for your advice. Hank ------- Date: Sun, 03 Mar 2002 07:30:26 -0800 From: mark Subject: Shims and way-grinding [NOTE TO FILE: Also see Mark's original post here 13 Oct 2001.] A few months ago, I posted my notes on these topics. My 6-inch was somewhat worn near the headstock, so it was either sloppy there or wouldn't move past the 6-inch-away position. Set it up on a friend's big mill (his surface grinder wouldn't quite reach), and used flycutters - did a great job. The surprises came in the form of warp, probably from the original machining of "green" castings that relaxed later. As much as 7 thou bowing, front to back as well as vertically. The cross slide had 3 thou or more; the compound was fine. This also meant carefully rechecking the way THICKNESS (bottom to top) as both bottom and top needed skimming to take out warp, and the bed will flex a whole lot if you secure it to the mill table (or grinder mag chuck) carefully. Hold-downs will definitely give you a warped bed! No problem with the rack at that level of skimming, but the plate bearing on the way vertical surface had to be made narrower, as it wouldn't let the vertical clearance be reduced. I have to say that once I got the fussy gibs set up, it became a wonderful machine, no vibration, no surprises from grabbing, which was happening before due to the toolbit / workpiece cantilevering the rear of the carriage, which didn't have the right amount of shims in place. So, it's worth the trouble, but a mill will do the job as well as a surface grinder... /mark ------- Date: Sun, 3 Mar 2002 19:06:24 EST From: LouD31M066x~xxaol.com Subject: Re: Grinding Flat Ways Took fresh look at involved parts. You are correct. Thanks for pointing out my misunderstanding. In case of need grinding shim plate would cure excess slop by allowing shims, Another excellent suggestion I had no considered. Good thing this group has savy and experienced folk willing to share or some fools (no names please) would be in deep doo doo. Louis ------- Date: Mon, 04 Mar 2002 01:47:48 +0000 From: Jon Elson Subject: Re: Shims and way-grinding Randy wrote: > Am I missing something, don't these beds that have been ground > or milled still have to be scraped? No. Atlas beds are ground on a huge gantry grinder that grinds several surfaces in one pass. > If they are not scraped how long will they hold their fit? It depends on how well you clean and lube the bed. If you let crud wedge under the carriage and then drag it back and forth, you can have pretty accelerated wear on any soft Iron bed. Precision hand scraping will probably help retard wear a little, and of course a rough milling or grinding job will accelerate wear on the underside of the carriage. > I would think the surface that is left by grinding or milling > would just grind away the parts slide against them. Flycutters can leave a truly mirror-finished surface, with just the tiniest scratches that give a rainbow effect. these tiny scratches may be useful to hold a little oil, just like the frosting on Bridgeports. Proper grinding would use the right grit to leave a slightly rough surface but with no big 'rocks' sticking up to gouge the carriage. You don't want it to look like a hydraulic cylinder rod, this would cause a good deal of stick-slip friction. An expert at grinding (not me) would know the correct grade of grit, depth of cut and feed rates to deliver just the right surface characteristics. It might be necessary to follow up with an India stone to remove loose metal particles and embedded grit. Note that hardened and ground lathe beds are ground as the last manufacturing step. They can't be hand scraped as the material is too hard. Jon ------- Date: Sun, 3 Mar 2002 18:43:25 EST From: LouD31M066x~xxaol.com Subject: Re: Shims and way-grinding According to 1937 Atlas Manual milling, seasoning and precision grinding produced such accurate surfaces that scraping was no longer required. This may or may not be last word on subject, but, who among us feels equipped and talented enough to try to improve beyond grinding by scraping? Iron riding on iron is not best situation even precision ground parallel surfaces which is why oil is used. In theory oil floats the surfaces so wear is reduced to minimum. $0.000000002 worth. Louis ------- Date: Sun, 3 Mar 2002 20:11:37 -0600 From: "jerdal" Subject: Re: Shims and way-grinding > Iron riding on iron is not best situation even precision ground > parallel surfaces which is why oil is used. In theory oil floats > the surfaces so wear is reduced to minimum. $0.000000002 worth Well, oil is certainly used to reduce wear. However, cast iron on cast iron is one of the few situations of like metals where galling is not a big problem. Example. piston rings in your car. Cast iron rings, cast iron bore. Pressure of rings reduces oil film to a minimum, in fact some rings are used to scrape off the oil. Yet the engine runs thousands of hours with small wear. The carbon/graphite content in the iron has been cited as a factor. Whatever the reason, in repetitive motion situations the iron develops a hard glaze after a while, and wear drops to nearly nothing. Hopefully your carriage does not move enough to develop the glaze very fast! However, for other usages, it is worth remembering that cast iron can run on cast iron just fine. Jerry ------- Date: Sun, 3 Mar 2002 21:32:36 EST From: LouD31M066x~xxaol.com Subject: Re: Shims and way-grinding Okay sounds good to me, I always think in terms of brass or bronze bearings and galling metals like stainless steels. There had to be a good reason why lathes and other metal working machines don't have dissimilar metal shoes riding on ways. I notice my cross slide seems to run a little on rough side so maybe way oil would be appropriate when I finish reconditioning and reassembly. I had discussed earlier making a brass gib for cross slide and it seemed to be an idea with some merit. Louis who has lots left to learn ------- Date: Tue, 05 Mar 2002 17:10:29 -0000 From: "k3vyl" Subject: Re: Shim question I know that brass shimstock is almost always used on this type of thing, but it has one problem, compression. Stainless steel shims are a little harder to cut, and will cut your fingers smartly, but the compression problem isn't there. People who do laser alignment use them exclusively, to get the repeatability needed for that type of work. I have found they make life easier in any application. RC ------- Date: Mon, 04 Mar 2002 19:28:11 +0000 From: Jon Elson Subject: Re: Shims and way-grinding Randy wrote: > Thanks to everybody that answered my questions. Now some more questions >> No. Atlas beds are ground on a huge gantry grinder that grinds several >> surfaces in one pass. > If grinding is the method of choice now why do companys like South Bend > still grind and scrape beds if you send them back for truing or have > I heard wrong. The Atlas factory had a machine especially built to grind their beds, and it was only used to grind NEW beds, and the settings were never changed to regrind old beds. That would have been difficult, as it ground several faces at once. Atlas is a different class of machine than the higher-end South Bend, LeBlond, Clausing, Monarch, etc. machines. > Talking about those that have been sending their beds to automotive > shops to be ground. I have had a lot of blocks and heads milled over > the years and I would not want that surface finish on my lathe bed. Heads are usually flycut, not ground. The grooves are supposedly desirable to give the head gasket something to grip. Clearly, NOT a good finish for sliding surfaces. >> Note that hardened and ground lathe beds are ground as the last >> manufacturing step. They can't be hand scraped as the material is >> too hard. > Are these hardened beds so hard that carbide won't scrape them? I can state clearly, from current experience with a hardened bed, that a sharp carbide scraper will just glide over the surface no matter how hard you press down on the tool. If there are ridges left from grinding, the scraper will slice them off, but once you get down to a relatively smooth surface, a carbide scraper blade will not remove any material with any technique that I tried. (I didn't try real hard because I didn't expect it to work, and didn't want to destroy my blade.) I am repairing a hardened inverted-vee lathe bed using manual techniques. I first cobbled together a travelling grinder from the tailstock base, compound slide and a toolpost grinder, and reduced the error in the ways to a small amount. I am now using a die grinder and Cratex polishing wheels to remove material in a manner much like hand scraping. I use a straightedge and hi-spot dye, but grind where the blue transfers. it is pretty tricky, as I have to worry about height variations, front-back variation, and 'tilt', and get all 3 things to be the same over the length of the bed. I use a dial indicator and a master precision level with a block made to match the underside of the carriage, and ride this block along the ways. It is a VERY slow process! Jon ------- Date: Tue, 05 Mar 2002 20:45:15 -0000 From: "mdedlow" Subject: Re: Shims and way-grinding > If grinding is the method of choice now why do companys > like South Bend still grind and scrape beds if you send > them back for truing or have I heard wrong. Only someone on the inside could answer authoritatively for any given company, because it's not simply a matter of technological capabilities, but rather a complex of factors, including performance requirements and characteristics, capital/labor tradeoffs, aesthetics, etc. Until fairly recently (20-30 years) technology was a big factor: it was difficult-to-impossible to hold grinding tolerances in the few tenths range, as needed for the best machine tools. Nowadays it's possible, but still expensive. A super-precise way grinder costs hundreds of thousands to millions of bucks. You have to keep it very busy to make a return, which probably means working in a production line. Obviously South Bend has this equipment and capability, since that's how their new lathes are made, so in theory they could use it on rebuilds as well, but it's probably more economical to use manual scraping for the varying bed sizes and alignment needs of the here-and-there rebuild work. Also, as has been alluded to by others, scraped surfaces make better bearings than ground surfaces, which is an issue independent of the flatness precision. If you grind to near-tenths tolerances, you're producing a finish somewhere the 5-25 microinch range, which means you're approaching the smoothness where stiction can become a real issue (try to slide two pieces of glass against each other with a film of oil between them). So, the ideal surface is not a perfectly smooth and flat surface (like glass), but rather a surface with many small flat-topped hills and valleys, for example where each hill and valley is maybe 1/8"-1/4" square, and the height delta between them a few tenths, and where the tops of the hills are in a perfectly flat plane. The hilltops are the actual bearing surfaces, and the valleys are the lubrication reservoirs. As the two parts slide past each other, the oil does not stay in the valleys, but rather moves around over the hills from valley to valley by virtue of the combined effect of the pressure in the valleys and the adhesive and cohesive properties of the oil. In this way, a thin film of lubricant is always present between the bearing points (hilltops) of the mating surfaces, and thus the metal surfaces are not actually in contact at all (this is idealized of course) You cannot achieve this property by grinding, regardless the tolerances of the grinding. This is one reason super-precision slideways are often still hand-scraped, although note that they are precision ground first for flatness, and then scraped for bearing. In the old days, the first scraping steps were for flatness and alignment. That type of scraping has all been replaced by modern precision grinding, except for hobbyists and small scale machine rebuilders. But it's not the only option for super-precision ways. Very common these days are precision ground metal ways with self-lubricating materials like Turcite on the sliding member, which eliminates the stiction problem and addresses the lubrication issue in a different way than traditional oil-bearing. And then there's aesthetics. Most people find hand scraping more attractive. If you had the choice between a hand-scraped and a ground surface at the same cost, which would you buy? What if the scraped item was 2% higher? 10%? 50%? Forty years ago tool manufacturers went to considerable lengths to make their tools beautiful. Sadly to many, this is no longer true. And don't forget performance requirements and economic feasibility. Does a hobbyist's 6" Atlas need the ultimate in slideway precision and durability? In beauty? Can it be justified economically? Realisitically, careful milling is adequate for the average 6" Atlas user. I don't claim this to be the last word on the subject, but I hope it adds some perspective.... Mark ------- Date: Wed, 06 Mar 2002 06:51:42 -0000 From: "mdedlow" Subject: Subject: Re: Shims and way-grinding >>>> If they are not scraped how long will they hold their fit? >>> It depends on how well you clean and lube the bed. >>> If you let crud wedge under the carriage and then >>> drag it back and forth, you can have pretty >>> accelerated wear on any soft Iron bed. > You can line one of the surfaces with Turcite. It's used on > many new machines. There's no metal to metal contact. True, but potentially confusing, inasmuch as it might be interpreted to mean that Turcite eliminates the crud/wear concern, which is not the case. Eliminating metal-to-metal contact doesn't eliminate wear, nor the fact that crud in the ways accelerates wear. In fact, Turcite is softer than iron and accordingly, wears even faster. So crud in Turcite accelerates wear even more than in iron. New machines that use Turcite go to greater lengths to protect against crud (e.g. bellows) than old-style machines did for exactly this reason. On the plus side however, the wear is on the turcite, which can be more easily replaced/rebuilt than the metal side. Turcite has other nice properties too, like reducing stiction, some shock absorbtion, etc. But it certainly doesn't eliminate wear. -------- Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2002 14:34:32 -0000 From: "wjw2000athotmaildotcom" Subject: Atlas 6" tear-down I picked up an old 6" (I think) Atlas bench lathe at an estate sale back in November. The bed is 36" long. Anyway, the prior owner must have been the original owner. It looks like it was bought in the 40's or 50's, and never oiled or cleaned. I don't see a lot of wear on the bed, but a lot of little dings and dents. I think the guy used it mostly for turning wood, and a few bronze bushings. So, I just started tearing it down to clean things up. Any suggestions for taking care of the the dings and dents in the ways? I don't think it needs to be scraped since there really isn't much wear. Also, are parts (like the lead screw, change gears, half-nuts) still available for these lathes? ------- Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2002 10:24:00 -0500 From: "Fred & Liz Lusen" Subject: Re: Atlas 6" tear-down You may want to measure the distance from the center of the spindle to the bed. I do not recall that Atlas ever made the 6" with a 36" bed. I may be wrong. Fred Lusen ------- Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2002 15:47:08 -0000 From: "outlawmws" Subject: Re: Atlas 6" tear-down I wouldn't worry too much about indentations, The thing you want to watch is the raised areas caused by the dings. I used to take care of a precision co-ordinatograph, which was a flat bed tool that measures and cuts high precision artworks for the I.C industry. (I doubt many are left, computers have taken over.) This is how I maintained the ways on that machine. I would cafully, very carefully, use a soft akansas oil stone to remove the raised areas. Don't let it dig further into the surface. use a new stone that is flat, old ones will have been worn concave and will not do the job, they will do more damage. Atempting to remove the indentations completly requires a complete cut evenly across the full length of the ways. Not a job for an amatur. But that's my limited eXperiance with a specialized tool. Any toolroom people have any comments? About my sugestion or alternatives? Outlaw ------- Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2002 09:59:09 -0700 From: "Bob May" Subject: Re: Atlas 6" tear-down I'd stone down the peaks that stand proud with a fine stone and leave the bed at that. Try to keep from hitting all of the bed while you do this. You can also scrape the area but that can make for little cups wherever you do this. The little holes won't make any difference to the work produced. Bob May http://nav.to/bobmay NEW! http://bobmay.astronomy.net ------- Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2002 19:51:31 -0000 From: "outlawmws" Subject: Re: Atlas 6" tear-down > You may want to measure the distance from the center of the spindle > to the bed. I do not recall that Atlas ever made the 6" with a 36" > bed. I may be wrong. Fred Lusen Fred, My (former) gunsmith had a 6" with a 36" bed. Either Atlas or Craftsman, I misremember which. I noticed it because it was a little brother to my 12" Craftsman/Altas, without the power feeds and fewer gear choices. A nice hobbyist's machine. Outlaw ------- Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2002 23:19:38 EDT From: LouD31M066x~xxaol.com Subject: Re: Re: Atlas 6" tear-down I am a ltttle farther down trail in rebuilding my 6 inch Craftsman Atlas. If my experience is any guide the more you look the more you find wrong. I might suggest you contact Clausing/Atlas and order the parts list, catalog and price list. For a nominal sum plus phone call you will be able to recognize, identify and price (if need be). A complete disassembly, a through cleaning and evaluation may reveal much that lay hidden beneath years of neglect and dirt. Caution: It is possible you have a parts lathe that will be worth more as parts to others than the cost of replacement parts will make lathe worth to you. If bed is as you describe it may not be up to snuff for precise work,but, perfectly ok for less demanding work. The only way to find this out is to let the lathe tell you by giving it some work to do and seeing how well it does it. If it meets your standards well and good. If not get back to the group and describe results obtained and ask what is ailing and how to fix it. I am sure you will get several knowledgeable opinions that will not agree 100% but will lead you in the right direction. Good Luck and welcome. I have two Craftsman/Atlas lathes and (6 & 12) and the little one with all the problems has taught me more and given me greater challanges. Makes life a little more interesting to try turning the sow's ear into the silk purse as the old saying goes. Louis ------- Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2002 08:23:51 -0400 (EDT) From: Art Breslau Subject: Spindle Q's Assisting a friend rebuilding a 12" change gear model, The spindle is deeply scored in several places inside the nose as if square stock was forced in. What acceptable dimensions would running a #3 MT reamer in too clean it up be? Run out is < .005, indicator barley wavers. Thrust nut looks like some one took a pipe wrench to it in the past, tho it came off easy when set screw was removed. Timkin bearings are quiet, gave good oiling before trying to rotate. No wicks in oil cups so it drinks oil, with small amount leaking out at 6 o'clock position from front bearing cup. Is this result of too much oil or indication of problem. Thanks in advance.. ArtB.. ------- Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2002 10:08:43 -0400 From: Chabannes Rene N Contr ASC/YCD Subject: RE: Spindle Q's If it were me, and I has access to a #3 Morse taper reamer, I would attempt to remove the high spots only. If runout near the spindle was still over a thousandth or so, I'd look into cleaning it up with a boring tool if I did anything at all. Given access to a machine shop, other options occur to me, again assuming I did anything. I don't know how close a given spindle taper hole on these machines should be in the first place. Zero runout would be nice near the spindle, But..... I'd be more concerned with chuck runout. That can be addressed much easier. Rene ------- Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2002 18:23:34 +0000 From: Jon Elson Subject: Re: Spindle Q's Art Breslau wrote: > Assisting a friend rebuilding a 12" change gear model, The spindle is > deeply scored in several places inside the nose as if square stock was > forced in. What acceptable dimensions would running a #3 MT reamer in > too clean it up be? If the grooves are deep, it would be better to regrind the taper using hi-spot dye and a known-good master to get the taper correct. You use a toolpost grinder or rig a Dremel or air-powered die grinder to perform that job. You set the taper with the compound rest, it takes a fine touch but is not that hard. > Timkin bearings are quiet, gave good oiling before trying to rotate. No > wicks in oil cups so it drinks oil, with small amount leaking out at 6 > o'clock position from front bearing cup. Is this result of too much oil > or indication of problem. You need wicks to keep a steady, slow, iol flow. It is just an indication the oil is going in all at once. Get some large cotton shoelaces like for tennis shoes, and cut off a piece. Jon ------- Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2002 18:30:01 +0000 From: Jon Elson Subject: Re: RE: Spindle Q's Art Breslau wrote: > Thanks.. Were these spindles hardened? > Correction on my part, should have read: Run out is .0005, indicator > barely wavers. Measured against register. Wait a minute! This is meaningless, in reference to the spindle taper! You should use a dial indicator (a dial TEST indicator works better) inside the spindle tape to check the taper quality. You can also check the side of a good quality center just past the spindle nose to see if it sits well. Jon ------- Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2002 18:28:03 +0000 From: Jon Elson Subject: Re: RE: Spindle Q's I wouldn't mess with it. I might use some hi-spot dye and see if there are any ridges at the edge of the grooves, and remove them with fine sandpaper. Otherwise, unless there are a lot of grooves, and centers don't hold well, I'd leave it alone. The spindles are NOT hardened, to the best of my knowledge. They are made of a fairly hard steel; there may be some light heat treating that was done, as the Timken bearing seats seem to be fairly hard (I had to stone off some ridges made when grit was dragged onto the seating OD of the spindle when changing bearings) but I don't believe they are what is normally called hardened. Jon ------- Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2002 20:59:10 -0500 From: "jerdal" Subject: Re: Spindle Q's The best idea is NOT to use a reamer at all. The reamer will bounce off high spots, and try to put low spots opposite them. Not good. And getting it accurate enough to not run eccentric may be an issue. Find the high spots, and stone them down to level using something like a stone off a brake hone. Stay off any good areas. Highspot blue, or permanent felt marking pen on a good taper like a center will tell you when you have all the raised areas stoned down. Grinding the whole taper correct can also be done, if you have the ability to grind to an acceptable accuracy and to the depth required inside the spindle. Often the compound travel is not enough to get down to the end of the taper in one pass, and getting the angle right can be a problem also, unless your indicator has long reach. The low spots, while not desirable, are not your problem. High spots keep tools from seating, make centers run eccentric, etc. To test for general runout, mount the indicator on the headstock (not the bed) and arrange the measuring tip to run on the inside of the taper about 1/4 inch or a bit more in from the mouth. This should tell you if it got bent, pouched out, or just gouged. Jerry ------- Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2002 22:35:50 EDT From: Sagebush9x~xxaol.com Subject: Re: Spindle Q's Mine was similarly buggered in the spindle taper-looked like somebody ran a boring bar into it. I borrowed a #3 Morse reamer & VERY carefully cleaned up the taper, w/the end of the reamer in a tailstock center. Came out good-holds the center sleeve w/no perceptible runout. ------- Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2002 05:48:25 -0000 From: "rweersing1947" Subject: Re: Carriage saddle question "gerry_brwn" wrote: > bought an Atlas QC 54 and can participate. When I take off the carriage I usually take the tail stock off, take the right lead screw bracket off, engage the carriage lead screw feed and crank the carrage to the right to pull the lead screw out, disengage the carriage lead screw feed and pull the lead screw out to the right, then crank the carriage to the right and pull it off the right end of the ways. It usually takes me about 5 min and I take it off often for cleaning. Hope that helps. Bob ------- Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2002 22:41:54 -0500 From: "jerdal" Subject: Re: 109 stuff Well, I don't think (having had one) that the 109 are worth heroic efforts to restore. That said, a few ideas: 1) Bent spindles are common. New spindles are makeable. In fact, you CAN make a new spindle on the 109, using the bent spindle you have! The only issue is the woodruff key, and that can be cobbled. Key is to turn your own spindle center in place. Rather than try to make a 0MT taper, I would drill and tap a short rod for the spindle thread. Drill and tap from the side for a rod to use as a dog driver, then screw the driver rod in and the whole thing on the spindle nice and tight. Remove the driver rod temporarily. Then set the compound to the half-angle, and work a 60 degree point onto your rod piece, taking care to start so you won't cut it off the end of the spindle as you cut the taper. The resulting center is perfectly on-center for your machine, provided you don't take it off. A new spindle can now be turned on centers to the OD profile, and with care, worked down to a smooth 0.550 diameter on the running bearing areas with fine single-cut file, etc. Either leave enough stock for a pointy center on the nose, or not, if you want to drill. Once the setscrew flat is cut, you need a key. Drilling several holes and filing with needle files can get you there, with care and time. OR, just drill several holes, insert pins, and file to straight sides and 1/16 height. A pain to file the slot, and not nearly as good with pins, better to beg for some milling elsewhere to put in the key. Once the new spindle is installed, you can finish your nose center, or try to form a good taper for a thru hole and taper seat. I would do the nose center, leaving enough for several turn-downs as it wears. I made one on a 10" Logan with milling attachment. complete with keyway, thru hole and 0MT socket, but you have to accept some lack of facilities if you make one on the 109. It wll take just short of forever, due to light cuts, but you can do it. 2) Chucks can be had special from both Sherline and Taig, for 1/2-20, unless you decide as I did to make it with a 3/4-16 nose to fit standard from the same sources. 3) Unthreaded chucks can be fitted using backplates turned on the 109. I know, I did it. 4) Threading gears are same as Atlas 6", they are the same stock numbers from Sears, although you will be going to Clausing. 5) Good luck with the half-nuts, dunno what to suggest except brazing up and re-cutting thread on another machine. Or epoxy, although I don't think it will work, due to oil in the pores of the iron. 6) Most parts and accessories you make yourself. Several articles in Home Shop Machinist and/or Machinist's Workshop have plans for stock parts and accessories. More plans are in the two AAdocs files. The kicker is, I think I would sell it as parts and use the money towards a small SouthBend, Logan, or Atlas Craftsman. Jerry ------- Date: Mon, 13 May 2002 18:41:12 -0000 From: "markzemanek" Subject: Clausing now sells plastic! Yep, that's right. I ordered a gib for my cross slide last week; it arrived today, and it's made of what appears to be nylon!!! They charged me $12 plus another $5 to ship. I'm very disappointed. Would you: a) send it back? b) just go ahead and use it? ------- Date: Mon, 13 May 2002 13:56:53 -0500 From: jmark.vanscoterx~xxamd.com Subject: RE: Clausing now sells plastic! Use it. Modern plastics are often very impressive. Mark V.S. in Austin, TX ------- Date: Mon, 13 May 2002 12:37:33 -0700 (PDT) From: Don Smith Subject: Re: Clausing now sells plastic! I purchased a gib for the compound on my 10" Atlas and also received what appears to be some type of nylon material. I put it in my compound and just as I thought, it`s a piece of crap. I left it in and tightened down the gibs adjustment screws after centering the compound, so at the moment I`m unable to use my compound until I can either locate a "real" gib or make one. Regards, Don Smith ------- Date: Mon, 13 May 2002 16:00:38 -0400 From: David Beierl Subject: RE: Clausing now sells plastic! >Use it. Modern plastics are often very impressive. But not this time. I put a steel gib in my milling adapter and it stiffened it up amazingly. The plastic gib is a dumb mistake on Clausing's part. david ------- Date: Mon, 13 May 2002 16:46:48 -0400 From: "Ebower" Subject: Re: Clausing now sells plastic! You paid for it. It will cost you more to ship back. My 3950 (1977 square head version) came with nylon gibs and they work fine. May be I should start charging more for the gibs I sell. Made of either brass or steel. Earl bower machine ------- Date: Tue, 14 May 2002 09:16:18 EDT From: Sagebush9x~xxaol.com Subject: Re: Re: Clausing now sells plastic! Plastic gibs were OEM on my 101.28990 12", so don't be too hard on Clausing for selling you one-that said, I made new ones out of brass, & it helped the rigidity noticeably. -------- Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2002 00:34:48 -0000 From: "chris111148198" Subject: Re: Atlas Gears, Vibration Today i called up Clausing to order some new gears for my th-42 , I guess is a 10-f . Some of them were getting worn pretty bad , was afraid that I might break them and then really have a expensive mess. At the same time i ordered 5 more to make a complete set for metric threading. So, I asked the lady why a 60 tooth gear was $9.29 and a 54tooth was $29.45 . Well it kind of susprised me but she said that the 60t gear was old stock that was left over from 1981- 1982 when they quit production and the 54 t was made recently at 2002 prices and also she added they had to make new patterens .(I would have expected that she would have said , I have no idea , i just do as i'am told ) So , I'am posting this so that if anybody needs any , they might think of getting them before existing supplies run out. I got a bunch of gears when i bought this lathe , did not know if they were left over or weather the lathe had been converted over from a manual gear change. Does anybody know how to tell the difference? I have a model 1500-1570 series quick change gear box. I have had a vibration problem pretty much all the time since i got this lathe . Went through the all the past posts re: vibration and chatter, Read and learned a lot about the little things that can snowball into big vibrations checked all but to no real success . So i said yesterday it is fix it or sell it or part it out. The first thing that i did was check te gibs as once in a while i would see movement betwen the cross slide and the saddle( By squirting oil on slides) when cutting , I would readjust gib to the point of hardly able to move croos slide to get rid of this condition. What i discovered is that there was no clearance on the sharp female corner left side of the saddle dovetail also the gib ws almost razor sharp also. I checked this corner interference with pressin blue , I filed the cross slide and gib to a .o40-.050 flat The compound dovetails looked a lot better , they had a little radius on them filed lightly on them also and rechecked with bluing. The next that i found was that thecircuular hole in what the atlas book refers to as the upper swivel # 10-302 was machined through to the dovetail ways , this was ok but the male circular dovetail was too high , it came thr=ough the dove tail ways . Stoneing the ways of 10-302 i was hitting the top of the male circular dovetail of 10-301. So i filed the top of male circular dovetail to gain clearance . The third thing was the set sdrs. on the 9-109 race that supports the counter shaft were not thight enough, this was my fault as i had tightehed them previously and was afraid of thightening them too tight as deforming them .i tightened them quite snug and it relieved a lot of the vibration. I guees it should not susprise me as Atlas went to the trouble of balancing the pullies i guess that vibration was paramount on their minds . The lady that i bought this lathe off of was the orginal owner , her husband died so i'am quite sure that this machine was not remachined , It was obovious that he was too much of a butcher when it came to machineing. So now i can take .040 cut on 1.0 crs with no chatter , Still would like to get it a little better. using Phase II quick change Guess i went on long enough Chris ------- Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 00:08:10 -0500 From: Jon Elson Subject: Re: 618 shims n5fee wrote: > I am putting my Atlas 618 back together after having the bed ground. > I am trying to figure out how much shim I need under the front and > back of the carriage. I have been using small pieces of shim stock > to see how much I need in each location. You generally don't shim under the carriage, but between the carriage and the apron, to align the leadscrew half nuts. > I have figured out pretty > close what each thickness should be and I now need to make several > shims with the correct outline and mounting holes to install. > I have been able to carefully cut out the correct shape but I am > having trouble making the bolt holes in the .005 thick brass shim > material. Does anybody know a trick to punch a clean hole for a #10 > screw in the thin brass shim material? one way is to drill the right size hole in two steel sheets. Drill 2 other holes some distance away and bolt them together with a piece of the shim stock between them. Now, you have a clamp with aligned holes in them. mark the shim stock, position the clamp over the mark and squeeze the assembly in a vice such that the hole is still exposed. Now, you can easily drill the brass without shredding it. You will still have some burr at the edge, but it should be easy to sand or file it down. Jon ------- Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 11:15:27 -0400 From: Alex Barrie Subject: Re: 618 shims try a hollow punch on a block of metal or hardwood Alex 1965 Myford ML7 1944 Myford "M" and a barely usable Atlas Mill ------- Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 10:39:33 -0700 From: "Bob May" Subject: Re: 618 shims Considering the thickness, even a paper punch will easily do that thickness. Better is to make up a punch for the size you want by using a pair of plates with a hole the size you want to punch. The two plates are aligned with a pair of pins and then you drop a pin through the punch hole and just pop the hole out. I might note that the plates should be good steel and, if you plan on a lot of holes, harden the bottom plate and the pin. The pin should also be cut at a slant so it shears rather than pushes the whole hole out. Lastly, a quick tap with a hammer will flatten out the sheet after the hole has been punched. This will knock down any high spots from the operation. Bob May http://nav.to/bobmay NEW! http://bobmay.astronomy.net ------- Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2002 12:18:06 +0100 From: "Ernest Lear" Subject: Removing a Spindle from a 10F Lathe Can any one help me with this? I'm trying to remove my Timken Bearing Spindle from the head of an Atlas 10F Lathe without much success. The following bits have been removed: - The 2 guards over the gears, the rear collar (9-32), Spindle gear (9-100-32), Spacer (10A-6), Dust cover (10A-3). The 2 setscrews I have also removed from the collar left of the pulleys (10A-89) and in the large spindle gear (10-241). After placing two pieces of wood to stop the spindle assembly moving right in front of the large spindle gear and behind the head casting, I tried to tap the spindle from left to right with a piece of wood between the end of the spindle and the hammer. I'm using a 2lb hammer and so far no way will it move. Can someone who has done this before, tell me how big a hammer or how hard to hit it. I just don't want to damage the spindle or any thing else around it. Regards Ernest ------- Date: Thu, 08 Aug 2002 13:38:35 -0000 From: "latheplaya" Subject: Re: Removing a Spindle from a 10F Lathe If memory serves, move everything inside(collar, pulley, bull gear) to the left and remove the key under the bull gear. There is just enough room to remove the key with a pair of needle-nose pliers. You can also pry out the 10A-3 dust cover from the right side. What happens is the No. 15 woodruff key won't pass through the 10A-7 baffle. Mine came out with the 10A-9C bearing stuck to the spindle. If your 10A-11C bearing is seized to the spindle, you may want to place the whole thing in the hot sun and pack the left side of the spindle bore with ice. You want the bearing warm (expanded) and the spindle cool (contracted). You should be able to drive it out with a 24oz hammer and a block of wood without too much exertion. Cheers, Derf ------- Date: Thu, 08 Aug 2002 15:45:09 -0000 From: "jeeceeca" Subject: Re: Removing a Spindle from a 10F Lathe Ernest, look on the 990-359 step pulley for a setscrew there for oil purpose. Remove that setscrew, sometime some previous owners screwed it too far. You have to slide (bull gear) #10-241 oposite to the tailstock. On my Atlas QC54, the 10A-7 baffle have a notch on north west position to permit removing of the spindle with the woodruff key if key is seized. The bearing 10A-9C have to be free and the setscrew on the 10-241 bull gear removed. Think I will help. Charles Atlas QC54 Canada ------- Date: Fri, 09 Aug 2002 07:20:20 -0400 From: Ronald Thibault Subject: Re: Re: Removing a Spindle from a 10F Lathe >move everything inside(collar, pulley, bull gear) to the left and [SNIP......] You should be able to drive it out with a 24oz hammer >and a block of wood without too much exertion. Cheers, Derf Just a note: Use light taps and slowly move the spindle, do not be heavy handed! Ron Thibault ------- Date: Fri, 09 Aug 2002 13:19:19 -0000 From: "tomin130" Subject: Re: Removing a Spindle from a 10F Lathe "Ernest Lear" wrote: > Can any one help me with this? So far so good. Everything you've done is just as the Atlas manual says. Maybe this will help. The setscrew in the large gear was tightened enough to raise ridges on the spindle that are interfering with the inner diameter of the gear. Also, the spindle key may have been jammed into the gear's keyslot by a crash. You will have to beat on the left end of the spindle a bit with the hammer/wood block, but it should come out. Make sure, as suggested earlier, that you remove the key as it comes out of the gear or align it with the notch in the 10A-7 baffle if there is one. After you get the spindle out, grind down the high spots until the gear is a nice sliding fit. When I reassembled mine, I cut a short piece of 3/16 round brass rod to go between the setscrew and the spindle. This should prevent damage to the spindle. The only function of the setscrew is to prevent side-to-side (axial) movement of the gear and it doesn't have to be any more than snug. The key carries all of the torque. HTH. Tom Jenks ------- Date: Fri, 9 Aug 2030 11:40:17 -0500 From: "Microsoft mail Server" Subject: Re: Removing a Spindle from a 10F Lathe First contact Clausing Service Center at joldsx~xxclausing-industrial.com Request Clausing Engineering Dept. be contacted for factory spindle and bearing removal instructions specific to your model lathe. The instructions about using wooden wedges iare only general instructions, and may not apply to your lathe . I found this out for my model 3950 Atlas 6 inch (MarkII in British classification) lathe. These wooden wedges instructions did not apply. I prevented a lot of damage by finding this out first! Also go to www.timken.com They have lots of free literature on bearing removal, installation and care. These bearings are in tight. In my case I had to get a 20 lb lead hammer. This thing is the size of a sledgehammer and hard to control. The soft lead is supposed to prevent damage. Practice hammering on something of no value first, to build skill. One miss, and you may destroy your headstock!. Lighter hammers have little effect. I tried a 4lb steel engineers hammer to no effect! Even with the 20 lb lead hammer, it was slow work. You will to make some kind of wood box to catch the spindle as it is removed. Otherwise it may fall on the lathe bed and damage it severely. HTH James Sprott -------- Date: Fri, 9 Aug 2002 22:26:26 -0500 From: "jerdal" Subject: Re: Removing a Spindle from a 10F Lathe > If a hammer is what is needed then the heavier the better > (as far as inertia goes). > Brute force is usually not the best alternative unless > the next destination for the intended victim is the scrap heap. FWIW, Logan recommends a "hammer" to disassemble the spindle. But the hammer is to be wood, which will not deliver race-brinnelling impacts to the bearings. Use of a regular hammer is best followed by the replacement of bearings. Yeah, yeah, roller bearings can take a lot of abuse, sure, that's right...I still would not use a hammer. Jerry -------- Date: Sun, 25 Aug 2002 18:35:13 -0400 From: "Gary Parrish" Subject: Re: Removing headstock pulley on late model Atlas 6"? >>>Anyone know if there are instructions (or have instructions) on removing the headstock pulley/backgear on the late model Atlas 6" (square shaped headstock model)? TIA <<< I don't have the parts list before me, so I don't know the correct name for the parts but here goes: Remove the headstock cover. (Naturally). Remove the drive belt. Disengage the back gears. Remove the retaining lock ring that fits inside the locking collar and in a groove around the spindle using lock ring pliers. Remove the locking collar BEING VERY CAREFUL NOT TO LOSE THE SPRING LOADED DETENT BALL AND THE KEY. Remove the second (inside) lock ring. Slide the Pulley/Gear off of the spindle. As they say - reassemble in reverse order! Watch out for that spring loaded detent ball. I hope you do not have to replace the pulley/gear assembly as I just did. It was about $160 from Clausing, but it did appear to be made of better material. Gary ------- Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 00:24:46 -0500 From: Jon Elson Subject: Re: Dinged bed ways mhannah100x~xxaol.com wrote: >>I just bought a model 101 Craftsman lathe to replace one that I lost in a fire. I probably paid WAY too much for it, but I thought it was in perfect condition until I got it home and took a closer look. The ways of the bed have some dings in them, where it looks as if it was used as an anvil. They're not major damage but need to be massaged a bit since I can feel high places while rubbing my finger across the spots. Would some light, cafeful filing followed by fine sandpaper be the appropriate fix or is there a better way to repair this *rash*? << Arrgh! Don't use a FILE! Get two bench stones or small sharpening stones. Put light oil on them, and rub them together for a minute, flipping them end for end every few rubs. With a little care, you will end up with two pretty flat stones. (Okay, purists, I know that using only two stones can develop concave and convex surfaces, but we're just trying to get local smoothness, here.) Now, take one of the stones (fine side, if they are combination stones) and very lightly rub it over the spot, with a film of oil on the stone. Clean the bed with a cloth and observe the pattern the stone made on the bed. If it appears to be taking off a little material around the dimple, then you have a good match of the stone to the bed, repeat until the rubbed area widens a bit. Now, you can take magic marker, or Prussian Blue pigment (also sold as Hi-Spot) and wipe it over the entire area. If you have a known flat object, like a precision-ground machinist's square, you can lightly rub this over the area, and see where the magic marker is wiped off. That indicates the remaining local high spot. You can repeat the process until there is no detectable high spot. The low spot at the center of the ding can't be fixed easily, but will not lift the carriage and thus cause errors. Dropped lathe chuck keys are a frequent cause of this sort of damage. Dropped chucks can do it too, of course. Jon ------- Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 10:14:41 +0200 From: "Guillermo Contreras" Subject: Re: Cross feed nut I would not buy. Not that there is a problem with this its just that there are SO many alternatives to this that it would be a waist of $50 that could be spent on something else... Several options have been presented and recently I tried one published in MEW mainly, boring out the inside of the nut leaving just 1 1/2 (or less) threads at each end. Drilll though the mounting spiggot untill you reach inside the newly bored section. Grease the crossfeed screw and screw the nut on up to the half of the screw. Before you cast the material, heat up the nut/screw assembly. Hold the assembly as best as you can with the drilled spiggot facing up and using high temp ceramic, creat a funnel round the spiggot and close of both ends. What you are looking for is to creat a funnel in which to cast in low temp melting metal in a safe manner; you can find low temp metal in many spec. cats. such as Micromart. This material wears very well and its easy to work with; ideal for this sort of repair. Pour in the molten material through the drilled spiggot and let it set. It's important to use a low temp. material that will not shrink when it solidifies. Once cooled down, try to loosen the nut; it will take a blow or two using a soft Nylon mallet but you will be happy to disc that there is no slop at all. I have used this system on all my repairs, its easy quick and safe. No special melting setups are needed. All this said, I am now in the process of replacing the entire Atlas cross slide with a T slotted cross slide sold by Metal Lathes Acc. and have decided to use the Myford setup i.e. it uses an Acme right hand screw of correct pitch. This will mean that the nut will have to be mounted where the collar assembly goes now; it will be a 2 sections to take up any backlash and eventual wear. I have cast a cross slide bracket similar to the Myford to hold the collar and handle, all of this runs in axial bearings very smooth indeed. There are many advantages to this system. Will keep you posted! ------- Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 00:03:11 -0500 From: Stan Stocker Subject: Re: tailstock taper cleanup selder_97205 wrote: > Does anyone know of a good way to clean up the taper in my craftsman > 12x36 lathe's tailstock? I believe that it is a 2MT. > I am thinking that maybe there is a special reamer. I have a few minor > scratches inside and am not sure if I even should bother. Thanks, Steve If a nice clean MT2 center seats with a nice "plonk", and stays in place firmly enough (when firmly pressed into the ram) you need to retract the ram to allow the tailstock screw to pop the center out it's fine. Burrs or pips tend to be a problem, minor scratches usually don't effect things much if at all. There is a lot of contact area in a morse taper. If the center doesn't seat in the ram nicely, you use an MT2 finishing reamer. The import ones from Enco were made in Macedonia when I bought my reamers and have been very nice, can't swear their current offerings are still as good. Finishing reamers look like a normal tapered reamer, just in this case the taper is MT2. There are also roughing reamers for Morse tapers, these have steps in the cutting edges rather than a continuous cutting edge. Enco sent me an MT3 roughing once in error, it just isn't one of those deals where turning gentler will make a finish cut. Had to send it back, they sent me the correct item. Though I'd mention this to avoid you getting messed up should Enco make this mistake if you order one! Taper finishing reamers need lots of heavy oil, firm to heavy pressure as there is a lot of cutting area if you aren't just cleaning off little bumps and warts, and must (like all reamers) never be turned backwards. Reversing a reamer tends to chip the edges as they are unsupported when turned the wrong way. Remove the absolute minimum material required to get a nice seating of the center, even if this means leaving a few scratches or grooves in the taper. Removing just a few thou will allow a center to seat deeper in the ram by a noticable amount. Shallow tapers are quite sensitive positionally, a 12 thou increase in diameter moves the center about .1 inch deeper into the ram, so don't get excited when reaming a taper :-) Most tapers I've cleaned up have only needed a few turns of the reamer to take a center nicely. Cheers, Stan ------- Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 10:02:49 EST From: AtlasTV48x~xxaol.com Subject: Re: tailstock taper cleanup I've used spray on contact cement (because it is thinner) to glue emmery cloth to a taper and turned it with a chuck in the spindle. Dave... ------- NOTE TO FILE: There are proponents of using reamers and others who argue that hand use of a reamer may do more harm in removing concentricity if not done precisely. Commercial Morse taper socket cleaners are perhaps less aggressive in metal removal than the reamers. For a Morse taper arbor shank to enter properly, you really need to worry only about the bumps, not the scratches or pits, in the Morse socket or on the shank. A few burrs or bumps might easily be removed by scraping those spots without any danger of misaligning the taper. Since scratching or galling is most likely caused originally when the Morse arbor slips within the socket, some cautious old time methods of prevention of slippage involved: - always removing all lube from the shank and socket first, - optionally wrapping the Morse arbor shank with a single layer (NO OVERLAP) of cartridge paper (thin writing paper) before placing the arbor snugly into the socket. ------- Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 20:03:23 EST From: cmiller231x~xxaol.com Subject: Re: Vibration update Hi group, just wanted to let everybody know what i found with the vibration problem with my 10f-42 1) bent jack shaft ( bent .010)Replaced with piece of Thompson shafting 2) jack shaft pulley bent , rebushed it and recut pulley v's on arbor 3) circular dovetail on cross slide bottoming out in compound , cut .020 off of top of circular dovetail, did not really need .020 but wanted clearance. 4) sharp corner of cross slide gib interfering in dovetail of cross slide , filed .03 flat on gib. I also replaced both belts with link belts . Bolt that applies pressure to motor was missing , Still not sure if i intalled bolt correctly to apply pressure to motor , but motor is tight now,I can now take .80 per side on ! 1/2 o-1 , no vibration ! Not sure of speed as i have to make new motor pulley as orginal was missing , Had a 4 " on for this test ( Back gear , 2nd lowest speed)( using tailstock)Turning light blue chip , I'am HAPPY! Could see no point in pushing it any farther . All in all quite happy now ,IMHO definately feel the interference in the circular dovetail to cross slide and the interference in the gib to cross slide dovetail were factory defects , Don't know how much they contributed to vibration but they Defineately showed up with pressin blue . I know i don't contribute as much as i should, Hope that this will help some body else . I want to also thank the group for all their input Chris -------- Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 02:03:57 EST From: anthrhodesx~xxaol.com Subject: Re: shaft bearings run out (craftsman 101.07403)? In a message dated Mon, 25 Nov 2002 18:17:17 -0600, Rodent writes: << Most real lathes have a standard taper in the spindle -- I think the 6" Atlas is MT #2 and the 10" Atlas is a MT #3. Find an old wore-out drill or reamer with the same taper as the spindle and use it to check for slop. >> Also, the 6" lathes have a spindle through bore just over 1/2", on the larger models it's just over 3/4". Get yourself a piece of round stock according to the size of the through bore - long enough that when it just extends out the tail of the spindle it will stick out the nose by as much as the lever arm you want to use. This was suggested as possibly two feet for the 10" lathe. Setup your dial indicator so that it bears on the colar of the spindle nose. Note the DI reading. Then gently lift up on the bar as you watch the DI, when it stops at a new reading note the reading. Might as well try pushing down on the bar to see if the reading changes from the neutral reading. Now reset the DI in a horizontal mode and go through the procedure again, pushing the bar to the rear, then pulling it to the front. Don't yank on the bar, and you're not trying to lift the lathe with the bar, you don't have to bend the bar, all you're trying to do is determine how much free motion there is in the spindle bearings. On any of the lathes using roller bearings there should be *very* little free motion, almost none. The babbit and oilite spindles will have a bit more but if you run through this procedure and are concerned, don't panic. Report your procedure and results to the group and get some knowledgable feed back. Anthony Berkeley, Calif. ------- Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 06:24:20 -0600 From: "Randy Pedersen" Subject: Re: Re: shaft bearings run out (craftsman 101.07403)? The saga continues Jon: to check the play in the Timken bearings you don't need to apply enough force to deflect the bed. Just enough to over come the play in the bearings. This is from the Atlas headstock spindle adjustment instructions. 1. Slide collar L against shoulder of spindle and lock in place. Move pulley-gear assembly against collar and slide large spindle gear D against pulley and tighten set screw in gear. There should be a slight amount of clearance between the pulley and the large spindle gear to permit pulley to turn freely. 2. Tighten collar B until all lateral (end) and radial (side) play has been removed from spindle. Check by tapping spindle back and forth with the hand. Do not tighten too tightly -- spindle should rotate freely. 3. Pre-load spindle bearings by continuing to tighten the threaded collar B approximately 1/16 turn (equivalent to two spindle gear teeth). There should be a slight drag felt as the spindle is rotated by hand. This is important because as spindle and bearings warm up, the spindle expands laterally approximately .002". Tighten set screw in collar B. Randy ------- Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 05:46:31 -0000 From: "John" Subject: Thanks for help on 101.07301 and new question Thanks to the ones who helped this new member with the cross-feed nut problem. I located new nut at Clausing. In the meantime I used JBWeld to form new threads on the old one for now. I am amazed at how well it came out. Probably won't last like brass, but I can do it again if needed. BTW the area code has changed for Clausing. The number is now 574-533-0371. ------- Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2002 21:44:57 -0000 From: "Nick Martello" Subject: L3-58 Gear Bracket I have a Craftsman Atlans 1934 12 X 48. Well, I thought everything survived the move from Atlanta to Ct. but no joy. Starting up my lathe tonight for the first time, I noticed the gears wouldn't move. I just thought they were out of adjustment. However, I discovered the gear bracket had a crack right on the end of the long finger. (L3058 is the two fingered version, not the three finger.) I have posted two pictures under photos/12" lathes/Craftsman. One called L3-58 and the other showing a close up of the crack. Needless to say, there is no way to tighten up the square head bolt that holds the upper gear as the broken end of the finger opens and lets the square head bolt turn. I assume this is a cast part and can't be welded. Correct? If it can't be welded, does any one have one for sale? Would Clausing have one? Thanks, Nick in Middletown, Ct. ------- Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 00:13:22 EST From: anthrhodesx~xxaol.com Subject: Re: L3-58 Gear Bracket Are you certain that you can't substitute the three slot version? I know that the locking bolt for it goes at the back of the headstock, is there already a hole there? I ask about this because I know that on the 6" lathe the banjo is locked with a pinch bolt around the end of the lead screw bearing, a very unsatisfatory arrangement. In the Modeltec series on building a QC box for the 6" lathe the author provided a banjo similar to the three slot one for the 12" lathe. I don't remember how he provided a locking bolt but it was in the same area as the one for the three arm banjo on the 12" lathe. Does anybody have the Modeltec articles that they could scan he page that shows the banjo and post it in the photo section, possibly under 6" lathes? If you do so let us know about it and where you put it. << Needless to say, there is no way to tighten up the square head bolt that holds the upper gear as the broken end of the finger opens and lets the square head bolt turn. >> For a short term remedy you might try drilling a hole across the bracket very near the end. Put a small machine screw through and pinch it together. You might lose a small length of the slot but you don't often need the very end. << I assume this is a cast part and can't be welded. Correct? >> I've seen cast iron welded. Not by me but it can be done. Ask around locally. << Would Clausing have one? >> Fairly likely. Anthony Berkeley, Calif. ------- Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 08:44:35 -0500 From: Chabannes Rene N Contr ASC/YCD Subject: RE: L3-58 Gear Bracket I just looked this part up on the Sears site and it is what I thought it is. It's made of cast iron (or similar) and can be brazed (not silver). Since you ask the question, I assume you aren't familiar with brazing. If it was mine, I'd file a notch at the crack on two or three sides to allow surface area for the braze to hold. Leave enough in the center to maintain the current shape/dimensions of the part. Then get someone to braze it for you. In fact, I'd check with them before doing any filing/grinding. Once brazed, you can file the braze back to the original, or close shape. I wouldn't weld something this small. If they should weld it, make sure they normalize it afterwards - otherwise, it will break like glass right next to the weld. Brazing is probably best. It's a simple fix I'd try before buying or making anything. Rene N. Chabannes (Titan) ASC/YC - Production Operations C-17 SPO, WPAFB, OH 937-255-1042(DSN 785-1042) ------- Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 15:00:33 -0000 From: "elperkins2003" Subject: Re: L3-58 Gear Bracket Rene, I second the thought. I have bronze brazed (not welded) cast iron on several occasions with an oxy-acetylene torch and had excellent results. I used fluxed bronze rod that is available at Home Depot. The technique can be used to repair half nuts, cast iron gears and all kinds of cast iron parts that might otherwise end up in the junk pile. I have also brazed all kinds of wierd stuff to cast iron C-clamps to make special jigs. Perk in Cincinnati -------- Date: Sat, 30 Nov 2002 02:31:01 -0800 (PST) From: gauge-onex~xxwebtv.net Subject: Re: L3-58 Gear Bracket This part is cast iron and can be welded... just use wire or rod that is intended for cast iron. When I got my lathe the gear quadrant had four welds on it... sloppily done, but it was strong enough. Another of my lathes had a cracked quadrant. That one I silver brazed... afterward I re-blackened it and you could hardly see the joint. My current Atlas 10" is perfect and I am very careful... those quadrants are fragile! If welded up cracked parts bug you, quadrants/gear brackets do come up on eBay now and then... you can repair yours until you find an unspoiled one (I'm pretty sure they're not available from Clausing anymore...) ------- NOTE TO FILE: WELDING QUADRANTS OR GEAR BRACKETS. Another posting with detailed how-to is found below on 14 Sep 2005. ------- Date: Fri, 06 Dec 2002 22:58:58 -0000 From: "brewerpaul" Subject: Help fix stupid mistake on my 6" ! How dumb can I get? I was turning a piece on my Sears 6", and left something in the path of the carriage feed crank. Turned my back, heard a sickening sound, followed by a sharp snap. Cut to the chase- I took the carriage off ( not easy) and found a broken off tooth on the pinion that meshes with the rack under the ways. I took off the bearing that carries that pinion, along with another one on the other side. From the Atlas manual, it looks like the smaller( broken) pinion has the shaft attached, and the other pinion is pressed onto it. I have found the appropriate parts in the Clausing catalog ( dang! it's Friday night , and I'll have to wait til Monday to order them). My problem right now is that I can' seem to separate the two pinions. Tried driving the shaft out of the larger gear with a pin punch, but I don't want to risk damaging the undamaged gear or the bearing. Any ideas how to get them apart? As long as I have the carriage apart, is there anyhthing else I should replace? I thought about the split/half nut, but at $50 ish, I think I'll wait. E-mail response greatly appreciated. Thanks a lot. Paul (brewerpaulx~xxaol.com) ------- Date: Sat, 7 Dec 2002 00:34:13 +0100 From: "Guillermo Contreras" Subject: Re: Help fix stupid mistake on my 6" ! Paul, I had the exact same problem with my 12" Atlas but I was not the one to make this mistake as it came like this when I purchased it 2nd hand. I tried everything but with no result. It then occurred to me to hold the part by the larger undamaged pinion (use copper strip for protection) and slightly faced the other end (offending pinion). This seemed to correct any slight "riveting" action that the end of the shaft could be producing as a result of deformation during the pressing of the pinions. After this, the parts came apart very easily; they also went back together very tightly when the new pinion came in. Beware, these pinions are not keyed, they are pressed on to the squared end of the shaft! On my lathe, all these parts were steel and it did not take me long to discover the horrific results of a catastrophic crash suffered by the previous owner who left his lathe unattended; take note, never leave a lathe unattended whilst taking a cut! Rgds ------- Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2002 18:33:24 EST From: JMartin957x~xxaol.com Subject: Re: Help fix stupid mistake on my 6" ! << is there anyhthing else I should replace? >> While things are apart, if you don't want to spring for new half nuts, I'd at least pull them out and clean them well. Use a dental pick to get down into the threads - chips and oil can really get packed in there. If the shaft the handwheel is on is a sloppy fit in the carriage, I would consider correcting that. I don't recall if there is a bushing in the apron, but think there probably isn't. Might not be a bad idea to bore out the apron and install a bushing there. John Martin ------- Date: Sat, 07 Dec 2002 00:45:58 -0000 From: speedphoto300 Subject: Re: Help fix stupid mistake on my 6" ! If you buy new half nuts from Clausing be aware that the ones available now (part number M6-12A) are wider than the plain M6-12 variety, .750" instead of .5", if your half nuts are the narrower ones than either get the M6-13A guide or mill out the guide to fit. I'm glad they increased the length of the nuts, should make them last longer. The half nuts themselves are only $16, you usually don't need the other parts. Joe ------- Date: Sun, 8 Dec 2002 20:53:59 -0600 From: "Paul Siegert" Subject: RE: Spindle damage questions [SPINDLE REMOVAL] Go to the Atlas Lathe Site (www.atlas-press.com and print the Tech Note for removing the spindle and follow it carefully, it works. I removed the spindle from my Craftsman 12x30 last week to replace the spindle pulley assembly and their tech note was excellent. Make sure you get all the set screws loosened before trying to drive the spindle out, and when you put a piece of wood over the back of the spindle as suggested in the tech note, make it's thick enough, and hit it square to absorb the blow of your brass or dead blow hammer to avoid buggering the threads on the back end of the spindle. Only other place I had to stop and think was on removing the dust covers over the bearings that are a tight press fit. After cleaning things up, reinstalling was much easier than taking it apart, except for those dust covers, which I didn't want to dent or mar, and if you are not careful, and get them started crooked, you might have to ding them up to drive them into a seated, straight position. Paul ------- Date: Sun, 8 Dec 2002 23:39:29 EST From: CaptonZapx~xxaol.com Subject: Re: Spindle damage questions mlhannahx~xxcharter.net writes: >When rotating the spindle the bearings are not rough feeling but I read >somewhere that bearings can be damaged by pounding on the spindle. This >one has definitely been pounded on and might have damaged bearings. I >want to take it apart to check them out. Model # 101.28910. Mike Hannah Hie thee down to your local nut and bolt store, and tell then you want a piece of 5/8ths in NF grade 5 all thread, 2 or 3 fender washers and a couple of nuts. Find a hack saw, and go stand in front of your lathe. Now, place the all thread through the head stock, and ask yourself "if I were to put a piece of pipe, large enough for the headstock to slip through, on here, and a nut and washer on here, could I tighten the nuts and pull the head stock out of the head and through the pipe?" Take the hacksaw and go cut a piece of pipe. Oh, oil the threads. And if you have one of those racheting box end wrench, it goes quicker. 8) CZ ------- Date: Sun, 8 Dec 2002 23:39:56 -0800 From: "GSNEFF" Subject: Endmills, Spindles, Bearings and other things that go bump in the night. Sorry for lumping this all together but I read digest mode and it is a royal PITA to split things up ... As to holding endmills in the lathe for the milling attachment, The only really appropriate way to hold them is with an endmill holder. They are cheap, accurate and have a setscrew to keep the endmill from either spinning or walking out on you. You can buy say a 1/2" holder and make sleeves for smaller sizes. Anything much over 1/2" is too big to use in the lathe with much success anyway. To make sleeves just put a piece of 1/2" stock in the holder, clamp it with the screw and bore to the size you need. Then cut or drill through for the setscrew to hold the endmill. For pulling the spindle just get a pipe that fits over the bearing and a bolt long enough to go through the spindle and the short piece of pipe. A heavy washer over the pipe and a washer over the spindle left end ...tighten the bolt and the spindle will slide out ... be sure to follow the rest of the instructions on the atlas website. http://www.atlas-press.com/servicebulletins.htm You are not likely to be able to see a damaged bearing. They are about $20 each at a bearing supply house so the only question is ... is it worth $40 not to tear it apart again if the bearings do weird things?? By all means clean-up of the spindle should be done on the lathe it will live on. The threads themselves are not really critical as long as they are clean and thread onto the chuck/faceplate ok. The registers are all important. One centers the chuck and the other holds it perpendicular to the centerline of the lathe. Dents are ok here but you need to dress down any high spots. As to the 6" lathe headstock bearings ... I had a bronze bushing lathe that I changed over to a timken headstock. The spindles do not interchange but you can make a spindle for the replacement headstock, then install the new headstock and finish the spindle nose on the lathe. The bronze bushings are not split but they are very thin walled compared to a "standard bushing". The spindle for the bronze bushed headstock is longer than the timken headstock. YMMV Glenn Neff Medford, OR ---------- Date: Sun, 8 Dec 2002 20:06:14 -0800 From: "Patrick Lee Rooney" Subject: Joining lathe beds Has anyone on the list successfully joined two lathe beds? The thought of the increased capacity is very appealing, but not at the expense of accuracy. How could one align the ways, and insure stability? Not interested in welding or regrinding one monstrous bed, but would love to have an "add on" for those special jobs. This pipe dream has become a recurring obsession every time I do any axle or driveline mods. I can't be the only one who longs for a bigger tool. Anybody try this yet? Pat. ------- Date: Sun, 8 Dec 2002 22:25:49 -0600 From: "jerdal" Subject: Re: Joining lathe beds Some large lathes in the 50 foot bed type class are made that way, with joinable sections. It is a millwright job to get them aligned. Theoretically there is probably no reason it is impossible, but the leadscrew, rack, etc. would need to be dealt with. The ends would have to be ground to fit, and the rack, etc. joined. Jerry ------- Date: Mon, 09 Dec 2002 04:26:49 -0000 From: "bill_collins14 " Subject: Re: Joining lathe beds Hello Pat.I haven't actually joined two lathe beds together(yet). I have another AA 109 bed I am contemplating joining them together. Some have told me not to weld them but to join them mechanically. Which makes sense. Because welding can distort the cast iron material Since I first got the idea of this project, I have acquired a larger lathe. A Southbend 9"x24" Model C. If for some reason I decide not to pursue the idea,I may use the other bed as a bed for a horizontal mill. There is a group here on yahoo that have had good success extending the beds on the 7"x10"-12" mini-lathe. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/7x24Mini-LatheCNC/ You can get some good ideas from them. Good luck and God Bless. Bill C. ------- Date: Sun, 8 Dec 2002 21:18:33 -0800 From: "Patrick Lee Rooney" Subject: RE: Joining lathe beds I recently came across a new 62" flame hardened bed, and just completed the swap. The tailstock end is indeed ground and fitted with dowels. The old bed is 50" and in decent shape, with the exception of a single sour spot of about 14". Neither end of this bed is ground, but I can't imagine it would be too expensive to have it ground. I wouldn't require the rack or leadscrew to be extended, just that it position the tailstock accurately. Glad to know it isn't beyond the realm of possibility. Pat ------- Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2002 02:28:06 -0500 From: "mertbaker" Subject: Re: Joining lathe beds There's an "extension lathe bed" in the catalog for the Atlas 618. Mert ------- Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2002 10:10:58 -0800 From: Frank Evan Perdicaro Subject: Re: Joining lathe beds Lathe bed joining is not a common happening, but it does happen. The way the ways are made on an Atlas, it would be pretty easy to use a standard woodworking trick to get the ends very close. Clamp the two beds on a mill so ends almost meet, and the two are in a line. Leave a gap slightly less than the width of a sharp multi-flute endmill. For example 0.020 under for a 1/2" endmill. Then pass the endmill between the beds, close to centered in gap. Even if the beds are not perfectly aligned, the nature of the cut makes it so the pieces will mate with almost no gap. ------- Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2002 15:47:39 EST From: LouD31M066x~xxaol.com Subject: Re: Joining lathe beds I have not done or considered doing this so following is conjecture... 1) Locate a specialist grinding shop ie the grinding shop the machine shops send their work to. Ask around or use yellow pages to find shops doing this work. Interview shop and determine: a) do they have a grinder with a long enough bed to do job b) what charge would be ( I had my 6 inch lathe ground on all faces for about $80.00 and was well satisfied with work. Be sure to make shop aware that this is a flat bed lathe (might be good idea to take stripped cleaned lathe bed with you). Be sure you understand what you want and grinder understands and can do the job. 2) Get two worn lathe beds (Atlas/Craftsman of course) Have beds ground on all faces of rail to same measurements, match grind ends to each other. Verify height of beds is same. Have tops and bottoms of feet ground parallel and to same height. 3) Obtain leadscrew stock of proper thread long enough to be cut and ground to go from headstock of bed A to bearing of bed B. If rack is important,make some rack teeth to cover gap between beds. Might take some shuffling to get racks to line up. I feel that a solid uniform mounting surface would make or break this project. I would try for something even more rigid than usual. Setting beds and aligning would be critical and worthy of every effort to achieve and verify maintain alignment. Sounds like an interesting project. My bias is toward grinding because A) many Atlas Craftsman lathes are no longer capable of accurate work over whole length of bed B) precision grinding will yield a better than new bed surface C) it can be more reasonable and much quicker than you might expect. Louis ------- Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2002 15:05:32 -0800 From: "Patrick Lee Rooney" Subject: RE: Re: Joining lathe beds I contacted a millwright this morning to ask about the feasibility of such a project. He has performed the task many times in large factories in South America and Mexico, but mostly on machines that are made to be broken down for shipment, and then reassembled on the factory floor ...permanently. Some applications require huge gaps in the bed, while still maintaining precise alignment. "Expensive" and "permanent" are not in the vocabulary for this project. He described the requirements for the job, and both words surfaced many times. He said he gets MANY calls from home shop guys asking to do the same thing, and the conclusion is always the same. Just not practical. Find a lathe that suits your needs. I sort of already knew this. It's just that I hate to take bits of a project into the driveline shop for completion, when I could do it myself given the correct machine. I am happy with the capabilities of my Rockwell and Atlas machines. They do 90% of what I need. Now what to do with this spare bed..... Pat ------- Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2002 18:30:44 -0000 From: "seb fontana " Subject: Re: Joining lathe beds Extending your lathe bed for tailstock use for longer pieces can be done without a lot of effort as long as your base for the main lathe is secure to floor. My first need put the tailstock about 6" out from bed, got it there by clamping flat ground stock to bed to hold tailstock then a brace from "addition" to base to make ridged in up-down direction. Remember that things are clamped, light cuts; use steadyrest if near middle, even if it must go on chuck side of carrage..And if you will use carrage near tailstock end of bed be sure to check ALINEMENT of leadscrew to bed...broke two leadscrew supports because of half-nut defflecting leadscrew. Made new support and shimmed to aline. Next time the need arose I had longer and several different lengths so set up another lathe bed to be able to move tailstock as needed..I slid my drillpress so table could support addition and fixed to floor..clamped tailstock to overhang bed by 1/2 inch and clamped 1/2 inch square x 6" flat groundstock, top and bottom of carrage ways exstending 3 inches front and back of tailstock. Now had receiver for addition [mike bed thickness, use feeler stock to shim bottom as neccessary]..slide addition into receiver and rest on drill table. Can use level for initial adjustment. I bolted 30" of 1x1 bar stock to compound to extend along side of tailstock to reach addition..use indicator mounted to end of bar to read on addition and by moving carrage can indicate bed to aline...once as close as could get, Clamped bed to drillpress table, added clamps at receiver..moved tailstock and clamped short peice of flatground in its absence..could now move tail stock from one end to other just by removing one piece of flatstock and two clamps. I used just about every clamp I had and some I had to make longer -deeper..next time I'll bolt and shim!! Used it for quite a while then discovered that I could weld several pieces [premachined] with no loss of strenght so when I got tired of crawling over the lathe bed on the drillpress I dismantled the addition..I had planned to make some legs fixed to floor to free up the drillpress; and if I had it would still be together...just in case. Seb. ------- Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2002 10:37:19 -0500 From: "mertbaker" Subject: Re: carege woble [ON AN ATLAS] There should be screws under the carriage to take the slop out of it. When facing, even with a nice new machine, always lock the carriage, either with the lock screw provided, or if none, by stopping the leadscrew and engaging the half nuts. These two should cure your problem. Mert MertBakerx~xxprodigy.net ------- Date: Mon, 09 Dec 2002 12:05:40 -0600 From: Jon Elson Subject: Re: carege woble There is a gib with 4 adjusting screws on the back of the carriage to adjust front/back clearance. If the bed is badly worn, you can't tighten the gib or it will bind against the bed at the ends of travel. There is also a pair of gibs on the bottom of the carriage that prevent it from lifting up off the bed. These are adjusted by removing laminated shims under them. Be real careful when reinstalling these gibs. If the screw pinches the shim, it will twist up in accordion fashion and make it much looser. If this has already happened, you can replace wrecked shims with household aluminum foil, at about .0015" per layer. Finally, there is a carriage lock at the right front of the carriage that should prevent sideways movement of the carriage. You lock it with a square wrench. Jon ------- Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2002 23:48:00 EST From: LouD31M066x~xxaol.com Subject: Re: Joining lathe beds Atlas /Craftsman lathes often are worn to point that grinding should be considered even though you may wind up with problems with engaging half nuts,rack and clamping saddle to bed. Nothing like getting freshly ground lathe bed where you know things are flat, parallel and square. The rest can be dealt with if need be. Feet on my 6 inch lathe were as cast where they bolted to lathe bed. This did not seem to me to be kosher so had them ground also. I suggest this be considered by anyone contemplating having bed ground. This all falls under heading of machine rebuilding not making chips,but, if you have a worn out machine your choices are live with something that is not accurate or do something about it. Combining two lathe beds may not be sensible for one or more reasons, but, if you were determined to do it I think it could be done and achieve acceptable accuracy. Louis ------- Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 12:58:00 -0000 From: "mrb37211 " Subject: Re: Joining lathe beds In at least one catalog, Atlas offered an extension bed for the 6x18 for woodworkers. It had the identical feet and was designed to carry the tailstock and be mounted at some distance from the original bed on the bench rather than in contact with the original bed -- at least that is what I gleaned from the picture. The saddle did not travel from one bed to the other, and the lead screw was not extended. One of these was sold on eBay some time ago . . . Charles ------- Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 01:07:22 -0600 From: Jon Elson Subject: Re: Carriage lock for 12" Atlas John Glowacki wrote: >Carriage lock doesn't lock on my AC 101.07403 12x36". My >old parts list shows a bolt, washer, and lock. Can >someone enlighten me as to how this works? The square-head bolt pulls up the lock against the bottom of the bed, binding the bed between that and the carriage. >how do I pull the front off the carriage to do this >repair? I also have to replace the miter gear and stud >that drives the power feed for the cross slide. Mine is >missing. Dad must have figured he could just turn the >handle for facing operations. Unbolt the right-hand bracket for the leadscrew from the bed, then pull the entire leadscrew through the apron, towards the right end. Remove the two huge Phillips screws on the top of the carriage. The entire apron assembly should drop down (be ready to catch it). It will be greasy and hard to hold onto. You should be able to make both repairs or survey the problems in there once you have the apron off. You can check that everything is getting adequate lube, look for cracked or loose parts, etc. Jon ------- Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2002 02:25:49 -0600 From: Jon Elson Subject: Re: Noisy spindle back gear: 12" 101.28990 rocketpsi wrote: >> Is the spindle pulley/gear normally noisy in direct drive (or back gear for that matter)? << Direct drive should be pretty quiet. Back gear on most 10 and 12" Atlas/Craftsman lathes is pretty noisy. A characteristic bell-like ringing is very common, with a little gear grinding in the background. I suspect this is all coming from the step pulley that is spinning on the spindle. Maybe if the bearing there is kept well oiled, it won't get like that. There is a setscrew in one of the pulley grooves that should be removed and oil dripped in before using back gear. There is also an oil screw in the backgear shaft. > I went through all the pulley tensioning >adjustments, the spindle bearings (timken) seem fine. I checked for >loose screws etc. The only thing is that there seems to be slop in >the engaged back gear lock pin- backlash seems about two or three >gear teeth equivalent rotation. Is that normal? I cant imagine that >the loose fit should contribute much to the "tinny slapping" noise, >considering that there would be constant positive force on it. I don't >want to dismantle the headstock if i can avoid it. >I did have a problem with the spindle drive belt pulley, apparently >it had loosened and started "walking" off the countershaft, which >probably put some lateral stress on the spindle pulley. Yup, a standard problem. These Zamak pulleys really should have had steel hub inserts. Once the pulley hole is belled from getting loose, it will KEEP getting loose. The fix is to bore it out and fit a steel sleeve. Jon ------- Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2002 03:56:15 -0000 From: "jmsbacon " Subject: 6800 Quick Change Question I am in the process of installing a QC gearbox (model 6800) on my 10" Atlas lathe. Everything is bolted up and looks good except for the amount of engagement between the tumbler gears and the spindle gear. Only about 1/2 the width of the tumbler gear is engaging the spindle gear. The tumbler gears are too far to the left (away from the headstock)to fully engage the spindle gear. I've looked at all the exploded views that I can find and everything seems to be in its proper place. The tumbler assembly is bolted flush to the headstock so there's no way to move the tumbler assembly to the right. I also can't find any reference to a different (wider or offset) spindle gear to accomodate the QC. The QC will work as is because the tumbler gears are being driven by the spindle gear, but I'm worried that I may eventually strip the gears with only 1/2 the width of the tumbler gear engaged. Has anyone ever come across this issue before or does someone have a 6800 QC on their lathe so that they could take a look at their tumbler/spindle gear engagement and tell me if this is how it's supposed to be? I've spent a couple of hours looking everything over and I can't see any way to increase the engagement short of machining a spacer for the spindle gear to offset it more to the left, but that will then reduce the gear's engagement of the woodruff key. Any help or insight is appreciated! Jim Bacon ------- Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2002 23:54:02 -0600 From: Jon Elson Subject: Re: 6800 Quick Change Question Hmmm, odd. I did the upgrade on a 10" some years ago, and it was a bolt on job. I did have to adjust the little plate with the holes that establishes the gear engagement of the tumbler. If I remember correctly, the headstock can be placed anywhere along the bed with the clamp removed. I wonder if somebody had the headstock off and didn't put it in the right place. It is a tight interference fit between the inner bed ways, so you don't have to sweat getting it out of alignment. Hmmm, assuming this is a Timken-equipped spindle, is there a spacer between the rear bearing inner race and the gear? I think there IS supposed to be a spacer there. This partial engagement probably won't do any harm, as the input gear has the least load on it. As the gears slow down the speed, the force on them increases, so the gears of the right selector tumbler have much more load to carry. Jon ------- Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2002 22:26:30 -0800 From: "Patrick Lee Rooney" Subject: RE: 6800 Quick Change Question Hey Jim, during a complete rebuild of my 10" QC many years back, someone liberated the QC casting, which had just been painted and left to dry in the sun. I managed to acquire another after a long search, and ran into the exact same problem you describe. The spindle gear (9-100-32) seated too far onto the spindle to engage the tumbler assembly correctly. I had taken lots of pics before the teardown, so I know that the original assembly lined up correctly. The replacement QC offset the tumbler gears by over 1/4"! This just had me bewildered. I too was worried about running the gear train with only 50% of the tumbler engaging the spindle gear. I spent nearly an entire day breaking down assemblies, trying to make up the difference. I found that you can't make up for it from the tumbler assembly down, as it throws the rest of the gear train out of alignment. I gained 1/8" by loosening the headstock bolts, and pushing the entire headstock outbound as far as possible. I got the other 1/8" by fabing a spacer to fit between 10A-6 and 9-100-32. The spindle collar now sits flush with the end of the spindle, and I get 100% engagement with the tumbler gears. Not a problem since, and I no longer dry freshly painted parts at the mouth of the roll-up. I could send a pic if it would help. Good luck. Patrick. ------- Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2002 18:40:07 -0000 From: "jmsbacon " Subject: Re: 6800 Quick Change Question Yes, it's a Timken headstock and the spacer is in place between the spindle gear and the bearing. Moving the headstock on the bed won't help the situation as the tumbler gear bracket bolts directly to the side of the headstock. Moving the headstock won't change the relationship between the tumbler gears and the spindle gear. Looks like the best solution is to machine an additional spacer to move the spindle gear a little further out on the spindle. Thanks for the help... ------- Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2002 13:29:09 -0800 From: "Patrick Lee Rooney" Subject: RE: Re: 6800 Quick Change Question Jim...We must have different setups, because I just went to look at mine, and the tumbler assembly IS NOT attached to my headstock. I think they made three or four different QC models (some that are model 15XX). The only thing connecting the headstock to the QC/quad/tumbler assembly, is a HANGER which is connected to the headstock with a 3/8" machine screw and a series of washers and shims. My headstock is retained to the bed by two cap screws, and a larger single bolt and clamp at the working end. The clamp is infinitely adjustable, and the holes in the ways for the two caps had enough slop in them to move the whole thing about 1/8" outward. I then removed the appropriate number of shims between the hanger and the headstock, so that the quadrant would align properly w/o racking. I left the large washer in. This brought the spindle gear out 1/8" IN RELATION to the tumbler gears. Like I said before, I made the rest up with a spacer on the spindle. The QC mounts to the front way with two caps, and is also a somewhat sloppy fit. You might be able to gain some ground there, however, I recall needing that slop to get proper axial alignment of the quadrant. I spent FOREVER with bluing to get everything to work together. BTW, I checked out quite a few machines during this time, and the hangers and tumblers vary between models. The number of shims and washers between the headstock and hanger also varies. One that I looked at had NO shims or washers here, a smaller diameter lead screw, and perfect gear alignment. One word of caution: the quadrant is fragile as hell. Don't remove that spacer and torque down the machine screw unless the assemblies are aligned!!!! Wish I had more info on the differences between models. I think many owners added a QC themselves, so keep this in mind. Good luck. Patrick ------- Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 22:03:12 -0600 From: "jerdal" Subject: Re: Lead Screw > Has anyone ever tried cutting the leadscrew at both ends, flipping end to end and welding it back together to use the normally little used threads at the right hand end? I checked on a new leadscrew for my Atlas 10X54 and they wanted $350. > I have heard of it, and you are better off boring it, and pinning together via a smaller stub set in, as welding won't necessarily get it concentric, even if you pilot pin it. Warp gets you. OR, you could buy the leadscrew material and apply it to your cut-off ends. Good threaded acme rod is available from sources which have been listed here before. Jerrold ------- Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2002 09:31:09 EST From: cmiller231x~xxaol.com Subject: Re: Lead Screw (Acme stock) I have been a non participating member of this group for some time. I read each post with interest, and have picked up a great deal of information. Several times people have asked about sources for new lead screws. I have dealt with a small firm that specializes in Acme thread stock and nuts in Two Rivers WI for many years with good results. They do not cut or machine the material, but do sell UPS able lengths of just about any Acme thread. The firm is: Green Bay Manufacturing 2617 18th Street Two Rivers, WI 54241 Phone: (920) 793-2411 They do not have an internet presence that I know of, so you will have to contact them by phone or mail. I hope this will help, and Good Luck! There was also another message that McMaster has low precision, acme stock, haven't checked myself recently. Chris ------- Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2002 22:43:53 -0600 From: "jerdal" Subject: Re: crossfeed backlash The problem with excessive crossfeed backlash is just that it is a pain in the posterior. Of course it can "easily be worked around", but if you CAN fix it to a decent degree, why "tough it out" spinning the crossfeed twice as much as you need? I have enough workarounds already, dunno about you. I find it a pain when threading, and if milling, so I tightened out the wear on the screw bearings, and got mine from an INDICATED 0.060 to an indicated 0.015. That, as less than half a turn, is OK with me. I say indicated, because there obviously was not that much actual movement in the nut, there would have been no screw thread left, it was just the dial numbers. Fixing it also got me a resettable dial, as mine was not. I made a collar for the dial to run on , which does the actual tightening. When buying a lathe, backlash is a great feature. Just twirl the dial and look annoyed and less than pleased. Start looking at every wear point on the machine. Price may come down as you negotiate using that fact among the others (or it may not, you may just get a lecture like the ones regularly posted on the bbbs when this comes up.). Tricky? Nope, as long as you come to a negotiated sale price without fraud, its just business. And, the wear is actually present, whether you care or not is nobody's concern but yours. Oh, and NUT wear does not mess the dial readings up like SCREW wear. At the transitions between worn and unworn parts of the screw, the dial is wrong. In consistently worn or unworn places it is probably accurate enough. Jerrold ------- Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2002 17:41:44 -0700 From: Steve K Subject: Re: Need opinion on precision level Mike wrote: > Would the Chinese *Master Precision Level* at the link below be suitable for leveling my lathe? Anyone have a suggestion for an alternative choice in the $75. or so range? I don't know what else I would ever use it for so I don't want to spend a small fortune for a Starrett. I just want to get my machine as level as I can without going overboard on cost. I have a machinist acquaintance who would most likely have a good level but I kinda hate to ask to borrow it and I also hate to be responsible for it. Probably be best to buy my own. Any suggestions are appreciated. Mike Hannah < This would work fine, but be aware that there are cheaper ways to "level" a lathe, and in my opinion, easier and more accurate to get a "no-taper" turning (which is the whole intent of leveling a lathe). I think I am accurate is saying that "level" is not the main requirement, getting rid of twist in the bed when the lathe is bolted down IS the main issue. Yes, you want the lathe as level as you can get, but almost any level will get you close enough. A good mechanics quality level works well. What an accurate machinist level does is help you see visually is any twist in the bed. This method works, but is tedious as you begin to torque the hold down bolts. YOu never quite know which way to tighten which bolt, or how much. You can, IMHO, get faster and more accurate indication by using a dial indicator or dial test indicator and a test bar. You simple watch the needle move as you torque the bolts down. BIG HINT: use jacking screws to hold the lathe down.. makes it very easy to adjust the twist out of the bed. 12-20 inches of regular 1" drill rod will be more than accurate enough for a home shop test bar. A good indicator reading to .001, and magnetic holder will cost 15.00 on sale. Put the rod in the chuck, read the max/min runnout at the chuck, rotate the chuck to the midpoint, and run the indicator down the length of the rod (magnetically attached to the apron). Note the indicator tip needs to be on centerline (as close as you can conceivably get it) I was able to get my lathe bolted down with .0003 deviation (yes, thenths) over 10" of a 1 1/4" ground rod on my 12 x 36 lathe. Granted, this is a pretty good lathe (Clausing Colchester),and I probably could have tweaked in even a little tighter. HOwever, at that point I am not sure if what I was measuring is really that accurate. Actual cutting of a 15" long rod (with tailstock support this time) showed less than .0003 difference between the chuck end and the tailstock end. Good enough for me. Or use Rollie fingers method to level the lathe if you don't have a known good rod... Steve Koschmann ------------ Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2002 18:58:03 -0600 From: "Paul Siegert" Subject: RE: Need opinion on precision level That level is a knock-off of one made in Poland that is in the MSC, Enco & several other catalogs, probably in the same price range, or less when on sale, which if they aren't, you can usually get them to match the price on if you point them to the link you are referencing. You can also go to Ebay and get a very good level in the $75 range. I have the Polish one that appears to be the original model of the Chinese knock-off you are looking at. I also have a Starrett Master Level, and six other Starrett levels in various size ranges as well as two SPI levels (which are very good). Having said that, they all, when calibrated (which only takes a few minutes if you know how to do it), produce the results that they are represented at. I'd guess that the Chinese level would probably be very accurate, probably much more so than a six inch or four inch starrett that does not come close to .0005 per 10". I generally use two matching levels at once when leveling machinery, one on the X axis and one on the Y axis. It speeds things up considerably. If you have someone to call the readings while you are on the floor adjusting the leveling pads it goes a WHOLE lot faster. Bottom line is that the level you are looking at will be more than adequate for what you are doing. Other issues as important as the level are the bench or stand you mount it on, the variation and frequency of variation change in the foundation of the floor as the seasons change, vibration and its effect on your overall setup, and the type of leveling pads you are using, as well as the compression effect of anti-vibration materials on the pads themselves. One last thought, if you level it today and use the machine for a couple of hours and check it a week later with a level that has the accuracy quoted on the one you are looking at, the machine will in all probability be out of level, as it is very sensitive. Just my opinion. Paul ------- Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 12:43:10 -0000 From: "yrotc78u212 " Subject: Re: Need opinion on precision level being a machinist in the real world, i looked up some web sites that the home shop machinists have on the internet and was impressed by the pictures of there projects.i give them alot of credit for quality of the finished product and there ingenuity in making parts with limited resourses.there`s a saying,garbage in-garbage out.if you start with a twisted machine tool you get twisted parts.working on parts that are +/-.005 is fine but leveling a machine produces a straight and parallel product.thats what you get when it`s level.leveling should not be over looked no matter what machine tool you have.obviously i would`nt suggest buying a starrett master level thats accurate to .0005 per foot because of the cost but basically that is what you need.bottom line for you guy`s is to get it as best you can with what you have.hope this helps. mark ps. if there are any misspelled words, remember I'm not an English major, just a machinist ------- Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 16:23:42 -0600 From: "Don Feinberg" Subject: Re: Re: Leveling and levels I really wonder about this thread. Before I had any skill at all working with a lathe, I went out and bought a nice 8" master precision level, convinced that I'd need it to get to the precision level I was anticipating. With experience, I have proved myself wrong in two ways: 1) I've found that every physical lathe has a kind-of "inherent maximum precision", based on the grinding of the ways, the accuracy of the carriage, the fit of the headstock, parallelism of main shaft with the ways, etc., etc. It's a real combination of ingredients which leads one to understanding that "you can't machine closer than +/- X thousandths on this machine". Problem is, using the master level, you may well be beating a dead horse, trying to get accuracy simply not available from your machine. 2) I thought that it was important for the bench to be level, the bed to be level on the bench, etc., etc. Then I thought about lathes which are used in the military (like on shipboard, when a ship is at sea, or in slap-together maintenance posts). Those places give very un-level -- sometimes, dynamically so -- conditions, yet machinists are expected to (and do) turn out good work under those conditions. After some thought, I've begun to believe that the absolute level of the lathe (with respect to the earth) is much less important than its relative level -- i.e., the parts of the lathe with respect to one another, and its relative stability (will it hold still while working so you can work safely and comfortably?). Bottom line -- I have a nice master precision level which I've never used! Don Feinberg ------- Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2002 11:43:15 -0000 From: "mfb11 " Subject: sears 109 AA Lathe tail stock Problems? I can not drill a good hole in the center of a piece mounted on the head stock chuck? If I use two dead centers & rular balanced between them / everything lines up. When I put in the arbor & drill chuck & drill bit / the anlinement goes to h_ll? I have mounted the arbor / drill chuck / pointed rod in the head stock & spin against a plate & it swings in a small arc, appox 1/32" . I have mounted a drill bit ( 1/4" )in the tail stock chuck & tried to run it up into the head stock, with no luck / it rubs against the inside of the spindle? How can I check the tube that the arbor fits into on the tail stock? ( I have mounted it in my drill press chuck & spun it by hand / there is a high spot) Can I buy a new piece? I plan to order a new arbor & drill chuck, if the tube is OK? ANY other checks I can make? Thanks in advance for any help / info. Mike in Penn. ------- Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2002 07:28:40 -0500 From: "Dr. Robert Harms" Subject: Re: sears 109 AA Lathe tail stock Problems? The first thing I would do would be to put a known to be good round piece in the chuck and check the run out with a dial indicator. I think you will find that the spindle is bent on the end. This is very common with AA109's but easily replaced. http://communities.msn.com/bitsamotorcyclesandparts ------- Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2002 14:32:00 -0000 From: "mfb11 " Subject: Re: sears 109 AA Lathe tail stock Problems? -I tried it using a piece mounted in a four jaw chuck ( I took a known piece of round stock & faced it off a couple of times & it was the some thickness as I started less the amount cut off ). So I don`t think the spindle is bend? ( I also used a dial gauge on the spindle & it was OK ) Mike in Penn. ------- Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2002 10:16:25 -0600 From: "jerdal" Subject: Re: sears 109 AA Lathe tail stock Problems? The tailstock may be worn so the ram is not parallel to the ways. Extend it fully (but not too far) and mount a dial indicator on the carriage. With the tailstock all the way to the right on the ways (where ways wear is going to be least) run the carriage over and rest the indicator button on the ram. Move the carriage and note any changes n the reading. Ideally there should be no change. Ram and its hole might be worn, or the bottom of the tailstock might be worn. Either causes the ram to sag relative to ways. A bent spindle is also quite possible or even likely on the 109. I think every single one has a damaged spindle, unless it has been replaced. Jerrold ------- Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2002 10:17:21 -0800 From: "Bob May" Subject: Re: sears 109 AA Lathe tail stock Problems? You take a spindly drill bit and expect it to drill the exact center of a piece, especially when the holder for the drill bit is on a whole bunch of stuff which can be all over the place for position? Nah, you don't get there! Start by using a center drill, that little very short drill bit that has the small drill tip on it and then the taper to the larger shaft and you can't drill very far with it. That is the starting point. Rigidity is what gets this bit to work properly as you may drill a bit off-center as far as position, but the drill will open the hole to the diameter plus the offset. This is your starter hole. It, at the least, makes sure that your drill will start on the center of the spinning work. This still doesn't mean that the drill will come out the other end at the center if the depth is deep tho as the typical twist drill can and does wander due to the design of the bit. Bob May ------- Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2002 12:42:43 -0600 From: Jon Elson Subject: Re: sears 109 AA Lathe tail stock Problems? First, the tailstock may not be lining up except when close to the headstock. Second, the drill chuck may not be mounting straight on the arbor, the arbor may be galled or bent, or the tailstock ram may be galled. This is a VERY common problem, as the Morse tapers don't always seat tightly, and then you can spin the arbor in the ram while drilling. The Jacobs taper on the drill chuck and arbor are so short that it is pretty easy to get the chuck jammed on crooked. The only fix for that is to remove the drill chuck, inspect for galling/dings and then reinstall gently with a twisting motion. Then, if it appears to be straight, tap it in with a piece of wood and a hammer. No 109 parts are available, as far as I know. AA has been out of business for decades, and I think Sears either dumped their parts or just ran out. You can check, of course. The Sears service center apparently has exploded parts diagrams to figure out the part numbers. Ridges or galls on the inside of the tailstock ram are real common. If that is the problem, use a Dremel or similar tool to remove the ridge. It is pretty easy if you can get a light to shine in from the other end. The Morse taper has so much contact area, a little removed material will make no difference. You can check for contact area with blue spotting dye (Prussian blue artist's oil pigment) or magic marker. You put the dye on the Morse arbor and wring it gently into the ram. When you pull it out, the areas where the two tapers contact will be rubbed off, the areas where it DOESN'T contact will still have the marking on it. A ridge in the ram will clean a ring on the arbor. When you get the ridge completely fixed, the ring will disappear, and you'll get a wider area where the marking is removed. Anyway, for drilling on the lathe, you should always start with a center drill to put a centered hole in the work. This guides a longer drill bit into the center of the work. A jobber's length drill will ALWAYS wander when entering the work unless you provide a starting hole. Jon ------- Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2002 18:30:03 EST From: HUNLEY31x~xxaol.com Subject: Re: sears 109 AA Lathe tail stock Problems? Bob May writes: << Start by using a center drill, that little very short drill bit I'm new also and don't want to admit how often I mess up a simple hole. The above is VERY true. I even milled half thru a piece to find out what went wrong. I found the drill bent and drilled a curved hole. I didn't think a drill could bend that much, but it did. Seems like the smaller holes give me more grief than larger holes. I'm getting better now that I take my time more. Hank ------- Date: Fri, 3 Jan 2003 22:27:14 -0600 From: "Microsoft mail Server" Subject: Re: Help 6 inch Atlas lathe > I have a 6 inch Atlas lathe model 10100 and > I need some help. When I engage the half nuts to feed the carriage to > the left it works fine. But I when I engage the half nut to feed the > carriage to the right it jerks along. I have put new half nuts on the > the lathe and it worked fine for awhile. Today it has started this new > problem. If I put a little drag on the carrige wheel it will feed fine > to the right. Does anyone have any idea what is going on. Thanks Terry Check adjustments of the carriage gibs. Some screws may be tighter than others. They should be tightened evenly. On the bottom of the carriage is an adjustment screw, check the tightness of this. The tip of the screw may be unevenly worn on one side. It may need replacement. If you have the manual, check the location of the carriage shims. The shims may have worn down and might need replacing. Check the engagement of the gears, they simply may not be adjusted properly. You should have just enough engagement to stick a thick piece of paper between gears. The gear on the leadscrew and the tumbler gears control carriage movement. Again, check the manual for the 10100. Check the little gear on the threading dial. Look for signs of wear. It may not be en gaging properly and is giving false timing on when to close the half-nut lever. The indicator marks are approximate, not exact. The time to close varies with the feed or thread selected. Some require fast closing, some slower closing. You should not have to force the half-nuts closed, they should go smoothly into place. You may have to get a "feel" for the closing speed and timimg. Sometimes just before the indicator mark or slightly after the indicator mark. Then lead screw itself may be worn, since you have new half nuts. Check the adjustment of the new half-nuts. They may be dragging on the leadscrew. Check the lube on the gears. On the teeth and the shafts that the gears turn on. Lube may have dried and hardened causing sticking and inaccurate gear movement. Fresh oil on the shaft parts and fresh gear "open gear" spray lube on the gear teeth. Check carriage gear rack for debris, dried lube, or excessive wear. Make sure you lubricate sliding contact surfaces of carriage and bed ways top, sides, and bottom with "way lubricant", not expedients like motor oil. This will eliminate "stick slip" and dragging, as well as reduce wear. HTH James ------- Date: Sat, 04 Jan 2003 00:40:40 -0600 From: Jon Elson Subject: Re: Help 6 inch Atlas lathe I'm not too familiar with the 6", but know the 10 and 12" pretty well. I would guess your carriage gibs are loose, and are allowing the carriage to twist on the bed, causing binding. See if you can rock the carriage by pulling forward on the left side and pushing back on the right side, imitating the torque the leadscrew would generate when driving toward the tailstock. If you can get the carriage to move that way, you need to tighten the screws on the back of the carriage. But, if your bed is worn in the middle, that may cause binding at the extreme ends of travel. Jon ------- Date: Tue, 07 Jan 2003 12:32:41 -0600 From: Jon Elson Subject: Re: safety Crashdummy653x~xxaol.com wrote: >Hi Jon. Thanks for the heads up. I have an Atlas lathe model TH42 serial # 041998. It has an auto feed and is in fair to good shape. There is some play in the cross feed screw and nut and wonder where I might get replacements. < First, check the adjustment of the bushing just in front of the handle, and take up all the slack there. I have used lathes with a lot of backlash in the cross feed, and I really don't let it bother me too much. But, I believe the Clausing Service center in Goshen, IN has these parts. They may be a bit expensive, though. I made my own screw and nut on a previous (10") lathe. I got them to have about .002" backlash. Jon ------- Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 02:27:34 -0000 From: "alanheff " Subject: 12" bed wear The bed on my 12" Atlas/Craftsman has some wear on the headstock end where wear would be expected. It is more pronounced on the front rail and is ~ 0.003". Have any of you had the rails surface ground to eliminate the wear? Is this possible? Thanks, Al ------- Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2003 22:21:47 EST From: LouD31M066x~xxaol.com Subject: Re: 12" bed wear I can only speak for 6 inch to state it is not only possible but worth- while. I had top, front, back and bottoms ground and expect to begin reassmbly when I get carriage back from grinding. I also have 12 by 36 C/A so I appreciate it is a similar job but on a larger scale. Bed of grinder has to be enough longer than lathe bed to allow grinding wheel to be clear of lathe bed at start and end of each pass. (length of lathe bed plus ?) The work must be set up by someone who knows and cares. If you mention grinding lathe ways they may shy away if they don't understand that Atlas ways are flat parallels not vee ways. You may also want feet ground as (at least on 6 inch) they are as cast. When I got bed back I found bottom of carriage rocked on lathe bed as surfaces that glide on ways were not flat and parallel. I suspect this was not wear-related but the result of less than perfect manufacture. If you have questions contact me off line. Some have mentioned having ways milled, but, personally I like mirror finish from grinding even if final result is no better. Some have also suggested hand scraping either alone or in combination with milling. I recall seeing ads years ago in Detroit Metro area papers for experienced scraper hands. I think it was a dying art form even then. If you have this skill or are willing to acquire it superior results are attainable as I believe you would be working to a higher level of precision. If you ask the group, someone will outline process. When you achieve renewed surface you will appreciate it more than the person(s)who wore it out. The soft cast iron ways need to be protected with clean working practices, generous and timely application of way oil and a cover to keep grit from settling out of air on to ways. Louis ------- Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2003 23:21:12 EST From: n8as1x~xxaol.com Subject: Re: 12" bed wear Louis ....if bed was sufficiently worn to warrant grinding,i wud suspect that carriage rocking IS due to wear .......typical w/ tool pressure as carriage advances.... glad to know u found a capable source ...the originals were ground ,not scraped,..but rather large specialized machine best wishes docn8as ------- Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2003 23:39:33 EST From: LouD31M066x~xxaol.com Subject: Re: 12" bed wear Place where carriage rides on ways still had marks from machining. Did not appear all that worn. But it did rock very noticably. Casting distortion after machining seems most likely source of problem. It is a complex part and possibly stresses locked into metal as it cooled after casting were unevenly released by original machining. In any case we will see if grinding makes it better or worse...cannot use as is. Louis ------ Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 01:24:21 -0600 From: Jon Elson Subject: Re: 12" bed wear alanheff wrote: >The bed on my 12" Atlas/Craftsman has some wear on the headstock end >where wear would be expected. It is more pronounced on the front >rail and is ~ 0.003". Have any of you had the rails surface ground >to eliminate the wear? Is this possible? Yes, you can do this. The trick is that whoever grinds it has to be very careful to not bow the bed on the magnetic chuck or whatever is used to hold it when grinding the top. A common trick is to clamp the bed upside down on the magnetic chuck and the grind the feet first. Then it should sit flat on the chuck when the bed is ground. The wear on the top is minor, and probably doesn't need to be ground unless you are doing much precision work. What is more critical on the Atlas bed is the front/back edges. these are what constrains the carriage in the front/back direction, and controls diameter of the work. If there is a worn spot there, the carriage is necessarily loose at the worn spot. If you try to tighten it, it will bind at the ends of travel. So, the edges of the bed need to be ground at the same time, and without removing the bed from the grinder, so you get a consistant width along the length of the bed. If these edges are worn .003", then you'd definitely want to have the bed ground! Or, you can learn the fine art of hand scraping! All you need is a straightedge, spotting compound and a scraping blade. Jon ------- Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 01:08:46 -0600 From: Jon Elson Subject: Re: power cross feed Damon Gentile wrote: >What's the ratio of power feed to power cross feed ? >Like if the feed is set to move the carraige 0.005" / rev, >and you engage the crossfeed, will it still be 0.005" /rev? The carriage leadscrew is 8 TPI. The crossfeed screw is 10 TPI. But, there is an 8:10 ratio included in the power crossfeed gear train to compensate, so the amount moved per spindle revolution will be the same for either feed. (Of course, on the crossfeed, the diameter cut will change twice as fast as the slide moves.) Jon ------- Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2003 20:35:58 -0600 From: Jon Elson Subject: Zamak repair techniques A guy emailed me today and asked if I was interested in how he repaired an Atlas carriage gear bracket, and I said "Yes, of course!" There it is : I wrote a description of the repair to another Atlas owner and will try to forward it to you. Yes, you may post it or send to anyone. I appreciate you asking first. One thing I would like to add is When using the Ideal Rod follow the directions of the manufacturer as they seemed to work very well. Here is a short description of Ideal Rod Physical properties. Elastic limit pound - 6,600 Elastic limit per Sq. inch - 33,000 Maximum Load pounds - 7,800 Tensile Strength in Lbs per Sq. in. - 39,000 Hank ------- Subject: Lathe: Rack Gear Housing Repair From: Ngtworkx~xxaol.com Hi Ronald, My name is Hank. I just read your webpage and wanted to thank you for all the great info. I particularly was interested in the article on the Rack Gear Housing. I had the same problem with my lathe recently and fixed it before I read your website. My housing looked exactly like yours when it broke. I thought you might be interested in how I did my repair and you could add it to your site or not. After I took the housing off I cleaned it with brake cleaner then washed it with hot soapy dish detergent and rinsed it. After it air dried I inspected the break and found a small casting flaw in the center of the break. I had already determined what had caused the housing to break in the first place. It was due to the mounting screws becoming loose which put the housing in a bind when the carriage was moved. (Moderator's note: This is a classic problem on the 10 and 12" Atlas. Check the screws every few months and keep them tight.) Anyway, I had a piece of 1/4" steel plate that I checked for flatness and found a corner that would work for bolting the housing to it. I located the holes by using a fine tip felt marker and then while holding the housing I positioned the broken leg into place and marked the ID of the last hole. Then I found the center of the elongated holes and center-punched them. I drilled holes just a little over the OD of the screws that were used to mount the housing and used the original fasteners to attach the housing to the 1/4" steel plate. Then I used a 3 cornered file to file a V-notch across the break. When I finished the filing I had a root (opening) of about 1/32" (as I wanted to file through the thickness of the part). After I finished filing the break I mounted the steel plate in my vise with the V-notch in a horizontal position. I don't know how you determined what type of metal the housing was made of. (I have never heard of Zamac) I did not think it was aluminum from the looks of it but thought it was aluminum and some metal I wasn't sure about. Anyway, I had bought some Ideal Rod years ago which I have never used, so I thought since it is an alloy compatible with aluminum it might work to fix the break. So, I tried it.I filed the top of the V-notch on both sides (1/8" along the top of each side to remove oxidation) I then used a propane torch and heated the break to the melting temperature of the rod and then tinned the break first. Then I alternately passed the torch over the break and melted the rod into the break until it was filled. I let it air cool and then used a dremel with a carbide cutter to remove a lot of the excess melted rod and finished with a file to dress it. With the root at !/32" it allowed the rod to flow through some which gave the 90 degree cast angle a rounded fillet. The fillet as well as a little more thickness of metal on the top of where the break was makes the piece much stronger. The Ideal Rod has a very high tensile strength to begin with. Anyway, the repair worked great! Its better than new. The only thing I would do different would be to use one of the small propane (Micro) torches as the one I used doesn't have any tips to attach to it that would make the flame smaller. I almost melted the base material but stopped just in time to add the rod. Also a heat crayon might be good to use as I wished I had one. Oh! one more thing...a small piece of copper would be good to place below the root to keep any of the melted rod from attaching to the gears. Do you know what the gears are made of ? I think they are Zamac too. Anyway that's about it. I hope this helps for any future repairs if needed. If you have any questions e-mail me. Sincerely, Hank ------- Date: Mon, 3 Feb 2003 20:38:06 -0500 From: "Paul & Charlene Wilson" Subject: Re: Re: Long distance diagnosis For what it's worth, I bought a new nut for my cross slide when I first got the lathe and later adapted the old one to take out the backlash. I drilled and tapped a hole on each side of the screw so I could put 2 jacking screws between the 2 nuts, threaded both onto the screw, locked one down (I milled the boss off the old one, but left the flat to keep it from rotating with the screw) and tightened the jacking screws until 99% of the back lash was gone. Overkill, but I had the time and the nut (my wife says I'm the nut ...) I have seen the same thing with a spring between the two nuts. Better, I think. Paul ------- Date: Tue, 4 Feb 2003 20:44:09 -0600 From: "jerdal" Subject: Re: Erratic infeed results > I have tightened up the compound gibs but not the gibs to the > bed. So I know there is some slop there. I even get a different cut if I > hold down on the half nut lever. You will want to adjust those gibs before you wear the carriage to a shape that cannot be fixed without scraping-in. You will get wear on the ends, but less in the middle on the side bearing areas. With it worn bell- mouthed, you will never again be able to get a decent cut on it until it is repaired. Been there, seen that. If you find a considerably different cut going towards headstock vs away from it, you may have this problem starting. It is then adjustment time. That would indicate it is twisting on the bed. > Sometimes it will cut more even if I > don't use any infeed and recut at the same setting, which I believe is > a good thing to do just before reaching the final diameter. This isn't necessarily to do with wear or gibs, it may just be spring in the work. Jerrold ------- Date: Wed, 05 Feb 2003 11:09:51 -0600 From: Jon Elson Subject: Re: Scraping ways Kirk M Scammon wrote: >Jon, I sent Mr. Morgan several inquires regarding his book and videos, >with no response. I am interested in scraping the ways on my lathe and >mill, and was wondering if you know who publishes his book, so I can >get a copy from the publisher or if there is other publications >available, as I haven't been able to find any online. >I already have a 6 foot long 2 inch wide granite surface plate >that would make a great straight edge. I'm afraid he publishes it himself. There are copies around, so you might check eBay or Amazon. One other book I have is Machine Tool Reconditioning, by Edward F. Connelly. It is kind of expensive, but has a LOT of good info in it. This is advertised in the back of Home Shop Machinist, but is available from other sources. I have a Michael Morgan straightedge, but never got my copy of his book. But, I learned how to do it without the Morgan book. The Connelly book is not a text on scraping, but more on how to decide where to scrape to get the right alignment. But, every machine is different, and the plan has to adapt to the wear and shape of the ways. I'm doing a big Sheldon lathe right now, and it has hardened ways, so scraping won't work. I did rough grinding with a toolpost grinder attached to the tailstock base, and now I'm finishing up with a die grinder and Cratex rubberized wheels, which take off just a little material. The problem is that I tried to trust the reference surfaces, which are not supposed to be worn. Well, the may not have wear, but they were either showing sag, or poor grinding accuracy. I foolishly followed those untrue surfaces until it was vastly evident they couldn't be straight, and then had to fix the belly I had put into the ways trying to follow them! UGH! At least, with an Atlas, you have NO reference surfaces to follow all the way to ruin. There's only one top, only one front, only one back, etc. I think the basic plan is to get the top rear surface (the least worn, generally) flat and free of twist, first. Then, you can ride a master precision level across the ways down the bed, and work on the front top way until it is flat and parallel to the back. This will allow the carriage to ride the bed without any twist. Then, you scrape the front surface (generally less wear than the back one) to be flat. Finally, you scrape down the back to be parallel to the front, and mike the front-back dimension so that the ends are exactly the same width. The carriage can be scraped to fit the bed pretty easily. I recommend Canode dyes instead of the Prussian blue "hi spot" dye. The Prussian Blue is a better dye, but it is JUST too messy! It takes weeks to come off your hands, permanently stains clothing, etc. I bought a big bottle of Canode dye from Dapra Co., but they have a $50 minimum. Do you know for a fact that granite piece is truly flat? I have an air bearing beam that should be fantastically flat, but when I tried to use it as a scraping master, I got strong indications that it was not flat in all axes. Jon ------- Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2003 15:35:23 EST From: JMartin957x~xxaol.com Subject: Re: Scraping ways Don't forget the undersides of the ways, as you'll need constant thickness to keep the carriage moving correctly. John martin ------- Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2003 18:55:35 EST From: catboat15x~xxaol.com Subject: Re: Digest Number 1343 atlas_craftsmanx~xxyahoogroups.com writes: > Having an aging 1941 10", I'm wondering about scraping the ways. > Would it be worse to have them ground ? But would either > help the cause? Carrage moves esy near the headstock and > gets reallllll snug near the tail. Yes, it sounds as if your ways are worn when it is loose near the headstock and tight near the tail. Atlas did not scrape the ways at the factory, they were originally ground. So, if you want to go with the orginial method you would grind them. Scraping may not be an option depending on how worn the ways really are. Scraping too will remove less material and the ways should stay close enough to original thickness that your lead screw, apron etc would still fit. Perhaps you could just live with the condition too. Think hard before doing anything. John in the high desert of California 12 inch Atlas Mini Mill Rusty file ------- Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2003 23:32:43 -0600 From: "jerdal" Subject: Re: Digest Number 1343 Atlas are different to any others, with all that area of box way, like a big turret lathe. Wear might be logically most on the sides of the box way, where the area is so much less. Have you checked widths? ------- Date: Wed, 05 Feb 2003 23:51:31 -0000 From: "joekott1 " Subject: gear noise I searched for this topic but I couldn't find anything. So I am sorry if I am asking a question that has been asked many times before. I have an atlas 12" with a quickchange and I find that when I use the gearbox it seems a bit load to me. I am used to running tool room type machines so this is a bit smaller than I am used to (but it does what I need to do at home). So my question is, is this normal for these lathes and if not what can I do to remedy this problem? I cannot adjust the gears within the quickchange itself but if there is anything else that can be done I would appreciate your help. Thanks all!! Joe (Ohio) ------- Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2003 22:08:25 EST From: LouD31M066x~xxaol.com Subject: Re: gear noise Your lathe like ours has been around awhile and may have seen indifferent care and careless use. The pot metal (zamac) alloy used in gear train, and other parts may be worn or sloppy or just plain chewed up(it deteriorates on its own too.) Isolate the sound using screw driver to ear technique and investigate source. May be as simple as using a tacky lube or as expensive as replacing parts. Everyone who gets an old Atlas or Craftsman Atlas lathe will have to do some troubleshooting or rebuilding, but, that is part of the fun. Once you get things up to snuff. Have you contacted Clausing Atlas for owners manual, parts price list and catalog? Owners manual gives you names, numbers, location and relationship of the assembly of parts that make up your lathe. Surprising, but, oem still supports the product. Louis ------- Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2003 23:46:35 EST From: HUNLEY31x~xxaol.com Subject: Re: gear noise My 12" was up and running for a few months till I heard, what I thought, odd gear noise. I removed one gear at a time until I found the cause. Some chips became imbedded in the soft cast gears and were tearing up the smaller gears. I had to pick the teeth with a dental pick, never thought of how appropriate that was till now, to remove the offending chips. My next piece of equipment will have STEEL gears for sure. These soft parts worry me. Even tho they have stood up thru the test of time. Hank ------- Date: Thu, 06 Feb 2003 11:57:48 -0600 From: Jon Elson Subject: Re: gear noise The Atlas is NOT a toolroom-quality lathe, sorry to say. Setting the gear lash just right definitely helps. The book procedure it to put a piece of paper between the gears and swing the bracket up until the gears pinch the paper. There is also one gear set on the bracket that is adjustable in its lash with the input gear to the QC. As these gears wear, they do get a bit louder. The faster you run it, the louder they get. I wear ear protectors most of the time I use the power feed, so the noise doesn't bother me too much. Jon ------- Date: Thu, 6 Feb 2003 10:12:16 -0600 (CST) From: dswrx~xxwebtv.net Subject: Re: Scraping ways A question about the use of "prussian blue". I have a tube of it and would like to know how to use it. It is quite thick, coming out of the tube. Do you thin it? and, if so, with what? Leo (dumb in pearland, but will be wiser with the help of your answers) ------- Date: Thu, 06 Feb 2003 11:27:07 -0500 From: Stan Stocker Subject: Re: Scraping ways Hi Leo; Some folks thin it a tad with mineral spirits. The preferred way to apply it for testing is to spead it out with a printers brayer (hard rubber roller) whenever possible. Obviously this is fine on a surface plate, but not so practical in many other places. Squeegees, bits of hard rubber, anything that works to allow you get a very thin film is OK. If the film is thick, you can't get accurate results, as the goo is thicker than the variations you're trying to find. Cheers, Stan ------- Date: Thu, 06 Feb 2003 12:38:15 -0600 From: Jon Elson Subject: Re: Scraping ways Generally, no, you don't thin it. You can saturate a paper or cloth towel with it and spread it around. Or, you can get a rubber roller and spread it that way. I am now using a rubber roller with the Canode water-soluble dye (it washes off the hands more easily) and it works pretty well. You want a dense, but very thin, coating, so it makes a clear mark, but doesn't transfer to the entire part. Jon ------- Date: Fri, 7 Feb 2003 03:26:11 -0500 From: "mertbaker" Subject: Re: Digest Number 1345 Prussian blue is the old standby, and famous for being dillicult to get it cleaned off things, hands, etc. afterwards. I stopped using it after the first time. Lipstick works as well, is a LOT easier to remove, & as styles change, it's free. Mert ---------- Date: Sun, 9 Feb 2003 12:17:06 -0800 From: "Bob May" Subject: Re: Re: Adjusting gibs I guess that you have made the assumption that there is only one setting for the tension on the gibs. In truth, there isn't one. Sometimes you need to be able to run the table rapidly with little friction and other times, you need to have the table as rigid as possible and will accept the additional friction of the gibs holding the table in place. In other words, a facile hand at adjusting the gibs is what you need to be able to do. If you don't need to move that particular motion, I usually clamp the table into place with the gibs and the friction keeps the table from moving. I'll also note that tight gibs will wear the sliding joint faster than loose ones will. Bob May http://nav.to/bobmay NEW! http://bobmay.astronomy.net ------- Date: Sun, 09 Feb 2003 20:53:37 -0000 From: "Paul " Subject: Atlas 10F apron Being a recently new member and new to lathes, I'm rebuilding a 10F that I purchased for Ł100....A few parts were broken and missing but with the help from the group things are almost sorted. At the rear of the apron there is a box casting with a gear shaft running through it that traverses the assembly along the lathe bed. Within the box there is another cog................this is a really poor fit on the shaft, causing alot of slack when the handwheel is turned,........any ideas on how to remedy the problem. The fit is very sloppy....the gear itself doesn't look very worn. It's just the square hole that fits to the shaft that has a lot of play. Thanx Paul ------- Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 09:25:56 EST From: LouD31M066x~xxaol.com Subject: Re: Re: Atlas 10F apron Sounds like something a little J B Weld might cure for the time being. Louis ------- Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 17:48:34 EST From: n8as1x~xxaol.com Subject: Re: Re: Atlas 10F apron > The fit is very sloppy....the gear itself doesn't look very worn. Its > just the square hole that fits to the shaft that has a lot of play that gear needs to be permanently fixed to shaft, as it supposedly came best wishes docn8as ------- Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2003 20:25:30 EST From: HUNLEY31x~xxaol.com Subject: Indexing kit to fit Replacement Bull Gears (10"/12/index.html") More details later. For now be advised I have an indexing kit made up to index the 60 holes on the 'bull gear' of a 10" or 12" Atlas lathe. All you need is a drill, although a drill press is a lot better. Anyone that has purchased a new gear that is not indexed, this is what you want. Ready to go. Free to list members for the asking, PIC available by request. Gear was supplied by Frank . On receipt of kit refund postage and hold for the next needy member. Regards, Hank ------- Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2003 02:13:50 EST From: JMartin957x~xxaol.com Subject: Re: Re: Craftsman 6" Countershaft Hanger Assembly s03570x~xxyahoo.com writes: << It is not broken, the pully shaft has worn out the bushing and may have worn on the casting. I am in the process of pressing out the bushings to see if the cast is OK and I will just be able to press in new bushings. If it is to bad I will let you know. Thanks, Steve >> I had a similar problem with a jackshaft on a milling machine. Shaft had worn through the bronze bearing and into the cast iron. Most of the cast iron was still there - wear spot was maybe 1/6 of the circle. As there was more than enough cast iron there to locate and hold a new bearing, I simply pushed in a new bearing and filled the gap where the cast iron had worn with JB Weld. Any similar epoxy would do. No real strength needed - just compressive. Has worked well so far. John Martin ------- Date: Sun, 2 Mar 2003 17:10:41 -0700 From: "Richard Coyle" Subject: RE: ID Craftsman Metal Lathe Well I can use some help, my new/old Atlas lathe was missing the drive belt and the spindle gears all seem frozen to the shaft, I have removed all the set screws and rear lock ring and freed up the pulley section which I believe was suppose to free wheel unless engaged by the push/pull pin in the front gear. (This is how my 12 x 36 works...) The instruction sheet that covers some of the parts seems to show a key way holding the front gear to the shaft, I expected the shaft to slip out or at lease be able to drive it out, so far no such luck and I have somewhat bashed up the end of my spindle, soft metal these... Does the drive pulley have set screws?? What for? Or did some fool not knowing how to lock the spindle to the pulley drill and tap this pulley to lock it to the spindle?? I saw one set on ebay with set screws in it so don't know if this is a common mistake and many have been changed this way, or is it stock with set screws. So first, am I right? Second I am in the market for a spindle, and perhaps a front gear. Oh I forgot I have yet to extract my banged up spindle, it can only come out the front toward the bed, Right?? Any suggestions on how to get it out?? Rich ------- Date: Sun, 2 Mar 2003 20:27:31 -0500 From: "Bill Hardin" Subject: RE: ID Craftsman Metal Lathe The set screw in the pulley is just a cover for oil port. What is the model number we are talking about? Bill Hardin www.homeshopsupply.com Craftsman & Atlas Lathe Support ------- Date: Sun, 2 Mar 2003 20:31:58 EST From: LouD31M066x~xxaol.com Subject: Re: ID Craftsman Metal Lathe Get thee to the atlas-press.com site and look up the technical bulletin for your model/size lathe. There is a specific proceedure to removing spindle. Print the instructions and study them carefully. If you do not already have the owners manual, parts price list and catalog call (574) 533-0371 Central Standard Time Monday thru Friday (business hours) and order (about $5) Have make model and serial number ready they accept credit cards. The parts you are beating on are the heart of the lathe and tend to be EXPENSIVE and a beating does nothing for accuracy or durability. Look at parts price list and repeat the phrases "Easy does it" and "An ounce of persuasion beats a pound of brute force." On second thought are you dealing with an Atlas or some other brand. Something about your description sounds odd...need to have flat ways, 101....(if Craftsman label) and similar to your 12 inch lathe... if other brand different solution which am not qualified to give. Louis ------- Date: Sun, 2 Mar 2003 19:14:06 -0700 From: "Richard Coyle" Subject: RE: ID Craftsman Metal Lathe It is a 618, some where along the line someone used set screws to lock the pulley to the spindle, that is fixable, the bigger problem is the stuck gear, I have bummed up the end of the shaft trying to drive it out. I plan on getting a piece of pipe or washers to allow me to pull it out by using the chuck as a puller. Oh I have soaked it with WD 40. Rich ------- Date: Sun, 2 Mar 2003 19:14:06 -0700 From: "Richard Coyle" Subject: RE: ID Craftsman Metal Lathe I read the instructions and it will/did not help in this case, if that would have worked I would already be done. I have a four page instruction manual, it showed all the set screws and parts for my model, the unit has been mistreated already for the front gear seems really frozen to the shaft, I can only guess that the fool the used the set screw to lock the pulley may have done to the front gear, the indexing holes are mostly striped out as I bet they used that to hold the spindle when they changed the chuck, not the lock pin in and the back gear to lock the spindle as you should. Luckily I got a good deal on it and can afford to do the fix up. Now if I can only get the spindle out with out harming the main housing. Rich ------- Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2003 07:47:23 -0700 From: "Richard Coyle" Subject: RE: ID Craftsman Metal Lathe Well WD40 and some persuasion with a hammer worked the back gear off the spindle at the cost of the spindle. And I can see what happened, There was no key in the spindle, so the back gear had scored its self onto the spindle, and the fools had cut a pair of flats into the spindle for the enlarged set screws to hold the pulley to the spindle. Question, is there a 1 inch 8 spindle that will work in this model as well as the stock 1 inch 10? Rich ------- Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2003 14:13:43 EST From: anthrhodesx~xxaol.com Subject: Re: ID Craftsman Metal Lathe I think, but am not certain, that the 1" x 8 TPI and 1" x 10 TPI spindles are interchangeable. Even if they are, why would you want the 8 TPI spindle? I believe 1" x 10 TPI chucks and attachments are much more readily available. Anthony Berkeley, Calif. [SEE 05 MARCH 2003 REPLY IN FILE "ATLAS 618 GEMS" AS TO ADVANTAGES OF 1" X 8 TPI] ------- Date: Mon, 03 Mar 2003 18:43:56 -0000 From: "rpm2290028 " Subject: Finally chasing 'tenths' I have a 101.07403, an early model 12x36, and after working for a couple of years to about 0.001 tolerance, I now have to get down to'tenths', and would appreciate advice from thos of you who've achieved this. I have a set of 1AT collets, up to 1/2", which does help for the smaller workpieces, but using my good 4-jaw, I have noticed that I can still get about 0.003 error while centring with a dial indicator, and pushing hard on the chuck. This disappears after a few hours running, so when the lathe is cold, I've taken to carefully cranking down on the pre-load, which then eliminated this error. I have some bed wear near the headstock, about 0.002" as far as I can measure, so for working here to get down to tenths, I have snugged up the gibs and used plenty of way oil. Without using the tailstock, I'm still getting a three-tenths taper over about an inch, is this normal? I can correct this with careful filing, but I'd like to be able to get closer if it's possible. I followed somebody's good advice a while back, and put a small copper disc under the set screw for the pre-load lock, to protect the spindle threads underneath, but it appears to be working slightly loose.Has anyone else had this happen? Do I need to really crank down on the set-screw to extrude the copper more into the threads? There was a post from Jon a while back, where he talked about the amount the attached motor causes the bed to twist, very relevant when 'levelling' the bed. I wondered about taking the motor off the lathe, and mounting it on the bench behind, with the same pivoting set-up to keep the belt tight, and just use a slightly longer belt. I know the later models have the motor underneath, in a cabinet?, so this would be a slight move in that direction. I guess that historically, before cheap electric motors were invented, a lathe like this would have been flat-belt driven anyway, so I'm not proposing too radical a change. Any advice would be greatly appreciated. Richard in Los Angeles ------- Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2003 13:29:32 -0600 From: "Randy Pedersen" Subject: Re: Finally chasing 'tenths' I don't believe moving the motor will cure the problem. It is not the motor that causes the deflection it is the tightening of the belt. to help cure this problem you need to install adjustable brace(s) between the motor and the lathe so the motor will not twist the bed. Randy ------- Date: Mon, 03 Mar 2003 20:36:58 -0000 From: "elperkins2003 " Subject: Re: Finally chasing 'tenths' You indicate that you are getting accuracy of about 0.0003" over one inch of cut. This sounds to me like pretty normal accuracy for an old lathe. It is about what I expect to get on my South Bend Heavy 10, and almost as good as I get on my 9" South Bend. I have two thoughts. First technique on an old lathe, is to be sure you are turning between centers if at all possible. Then, using a test bar, adjust the cut with the tailstock in the position it will be used in with the actual workpiece so that you get the same diameter at both ends. On an old worn lathe, this will not necessarily be the same at all places along the bed. You will probably have to make a test bar of the same length as your work piece. If you really want accuracy to a tenth, you will probably have to resort to lapping. You machine as close as you can, probably to within .001 to .0005" of the desired dimension, and take the remaining material off by lapping with a copper or brass lap (impregnated with abrasive) made to fit the work piece. This would be a split sleeve for outside lapping, with some provision to tighten it up (hose clamps will do)as it cuts into the work piece. For inside lapping, you use a lap made to fit the internal dimension that is split and has a taper reamed in the center. A taper pin is driven into the center of the lap to expand it ever so slightly as you cut into the work piece. You lap for a while then clean and measure, then lap some more until you get it right. I have used this technique to lap a cylinder and piston on a model desiel engine that required a 6 or 7 to one compression ratio. In other words, a very very close fit and finish without piston rings. A great description of lapping is in outlined in the book "The Amature's Lathe, by L. Sparry. This is an old book written with an English twist, that has a wealth of information in it. I think it is available from Lindsay Publications. Years ago I got my copy from Campbell Tools in Springfield OH. Have fun! Perk in Cincinnati ------- Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2003 22:56:19 -0600 From: "jerdal" Subject: Re: Model 109.xxx Some MT0 things are available from Campbell tools. I forget the URL, but there seem to be two of these, one is unrelated to machines, so if you search, try adding parameters in Google "advanced search" to eliminate non-machine versions! At least centers are available, if not chuck arbors. I made a chuck arbor on the 109 for mine. Other MT0 things are also makeable, and some on the group, notably Earl Bower, make parts. The graduated dials are makeable on the machine, I know I did, before changing to a larger Logan machine. But the dial is a pain due to not having an even number of thousandths per turn, seems like there is an odd bit left over due to the crosslide screw pitch. Slop in spindle is due to nose bearing issues, either not tightened right, or possibly worn bell-mouthed. Loose can be tightened with the nut that should be behind the bearing next to the large backgear housing on many types. Bellmouthed can be reamed parallel, or possibly remade from bronze if too far gone. Earl Bower makes spindles, and maybe bearings. Myself, I would put the money towards a small Atlas or Logan, as the 109 is afflicted with a too-small spindle for my taste. An Atlas 6" (the "618") is much stiffer and I have seen them sold for as little as $200. I turned one down recently for that, decided I just didn't want it relative to other things. Jerrold ------- Date: Fri, 7 Mar 2003 18:45:22 EST From: LouD31M066x~xxaol.com Subject: Re: Spindle bearing adjustment Craftsman 101.21400 Craftsman is a Sears (Roebuck) brand. Atlas Press made lathes and other items sold by Sears under Craftsman brand. Sears model numbers began with a three digit source code to identify supplier. There is another lathe often confused with Craftsman/Atlas(101.xxx) made by AA Engineering(109.xxx) The two companies each made a six inch lathe which strange as it may seem used same change gears. Whenever discussing a Craftsman brand lathe it helps to sort out which supplier's lathe is involved. See a lot of confusion perpetrated on ebay by sellers hoping buyer will assume they are bidding on more valuable of the two machines....Caviat Emptor or something like that. Atlas made machines over a period of time and I believe used Timken Taper Roller Bearings, plain bearings and I am told oilite or similar bearings. Correcting spindle endplay on the different bearings might differ depending on bearing type. The site I referred you to has very specific proceedure for Timken Tapered Roller Bearing headstock...if you don't have that type bearing instructions might not apply in whole or in part. Atlas manual had directions for dealing with plain bearings and Timken bearings...no mention in my book of oilite type bearing care. Louis ------- Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2003 18:01:08 EST From: LouD31M066x~xxaol.com Subject: Rebuilding Lathe Have just finished assembly and tryout of Craftsman/Atlas 6 inch lathe 101.21400 project and I have the following comments to offer to anyone considering this... 1) A worn bed can be economically reground to better than new condition. 2) Carriage should also be checked. Gibs should to hold evenly across full range of motion both bed way and cross slide. 3) Compound should also be checked to see if gibs hold evenly through full range of motion and may also be improved by a grind. When you assemble the slop and stick slip of gibs is gone! Assemble carriage on bed with all shims in place...measure slop and then remove and take out an appropriate shim thickness...if you need more have half of retainer plate ground to fit up snug and install shims as needed. My enthusiasim for this project may be excessive, but, the results certainly justified the time and expense. You can rejuvinated Tired Old Iron to better than new even if you don't have a journeyman machine repairman's card! no digital camera no pix and it is too big to set on scanner! Truth be told before, during and after pictures would have told a story...and might have led to questions about my sanity for buying an obvious junker. But, no picture could demonstrate smooth almost frictionless traverse thru full range of motion of carriage and cross slide with zero slack in gibs...that you would have to experience and appreciate how good it can get. I suspect original Atlas finish left much to be desired. A very learning experience. Proof of pudding is of course is it accurate? That awaits some testing and use. Bed about $60.00 to have top, front and back and bottom of rails ground to mirror flat finish with (much) less than 0.001 variance in all measurements. Carriage about $40.00 and it was more in need than bed. The project would not have turned out right if grinder had not noticed need for additional work on carriage to clean up cross slide. This is a tricky set up as it must reference from surface of carriage that faces front rail surface. Could have carried grinding to compound, but, it seems ok although no as smooth so left it alone for now. If you have a machine that needs rejuvinating this is one way to go. Another is to buy a good used bed off ebay(may be cheaper). I found so much wrong with carriage riding surfaces that even a new bed wouldn't have given satisfaction. Reconditioning of sliding surfaces changed junk to jewel! If anyone is considering this I would be glad to answer any questions. Louis ------- Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2003 23:55:55 -0000 From: "rpm2290028" Subject: TIR of Spindle Bore I posted a while back about having to chase 'tenths' on an early 12x36 101.07403. In my search for errors to tweak, I was surprised to find a TIR of about 0.003-4" in my set of Hardinge collets, when fitted in the spindle and tightened up. I checked the TIR with a brand new #3 dead centre that I just use for accurate centering, and found the same runout as the collets. I very carefully used another new but cheap dead centre to grind out the taper with very fine grinding paste, which took out any grungy bits, gave a nice smooth finish,(except for odd deep scratches etc) and improved the runout to about 0.0015". Is this normal for these lathes? This one has about 0.002" of bed wear at 6" - 18" from the headstock, about 0.007" loss of height on the tailstock which has been shimmed out, but the bearings are in good shape, so I'm wondering why this error? How much would it cost, roughly, to have this spindle re-ground to a better tolerance? Has anyone had this done? I have a good 4-jaw which i can get down to 0.0002" but I would like the collets to be more accurate than this, they fit inside the spindle with a draw-bar. I am very leary of trying to improve this with a reamer... Richard in Los Angeles ------- Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2003 21:42:19 EST From: n8as1x~xxaol.com Subject: Re: TIR of Spindle Bore In a message dated 3/13/03 5:59:14 PM Central Standard Time, richardmedwayx~xxsprintmail.com writes: > 4-jaw which > i can get down to 0.0002" but I would like the collets to be more > accurate than this, they fit inside the spindle with a draw-bar. i think it unrealistic to expect much better han 1/2 thou out of a collet set up on a/c lathe,but u certainly shoud be able to get spindle runout to that......brought mine back to .0003+ w/ a morse reamer CAREFULLY(easy) w/OUT any tailstock support ..........ur progress so far tells me would encourage me to use a reamer ......on 3 different machines ,the reamer has worked ............i would guess that ur bearings wont hold .0002 runout..........1 1/2 thou runout is unacceptable to me & the reamer is where i would start .....there are others who would not , but i trust a reamer in situ over a regrind on another machine by an unknown hand....... best wishes docn8as ------- Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2003 00:26:57 -0600 From: Jon Elson Subject: Re: TIR of Spindle Bore >gave a nice smooth finish,(except for odd deep scratches etc) and >improved the runout to about 0.0015". Most likely, this is normal. The best thing to do is use a dial test indicator on the taper inside the spindle, and read it at several depths. If there is no runout there, then your collets are bad (not likely). But, I suspect you'll find the runout is in the spindle taper. You can set up a toolpost grinder or good die grinder and align the compound swivel to follow the side of the taper. make sure the compound slide runs straight and doesn't follow a curved path due to wear, like my old Atlas did. Then, you can run a fine stone in and out to true up the spindle socket. You can fit a known-good arbor (not a collet) with blue dye to make sure the taper angle is correct. When the arbor puts dye all over the spindle socket, and the grinder has cut all around, then you're there! >How much would it cost, roughly, to have this spindle re-ground to a >better tolerance? Has anyone had this done? It is best to do this ON the machine, so the runout of the bearings and spindle are all cancelled in the position they are assembled in. Jon ------- Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2003 08:01:28 -0600 From: "jerdal" Subject: Re: TIR of Spindle Bore > It is best to do this ON the machine, so the runout of the bearings and > spindle are all cancelled in the position they are assembled in. This is true, UNLESS you are going to have to siassemble the spindle assembly. My Atlas' are not lathes, so I don't know the degree to which the bearings are disturbed replacing the belt on the Atlas lathe. On some others, the relationship of bearing to spindle is destroyed. But, it would be prudent to get a belt not requiring disassembly to replace. Otherwise you may find your runout DOUBLED after belt replacement, if runouts and ground correction are in position to add, not subtract... Jerrold ------- Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2003 00:47:46 -0000 From: "gppaine2001" Subject: AA 109 lathe half nut alignment As a proud owner of two Atlas 10s, I have enjoyed following this group chat for some time now. I am always learning. I picked up an inexpensive 109 lathe last fall that I am just getting around to setting up. Why, with two larger lathes? I guess I am just fascinated with the cute little thing. After cleaning it up and studying it for a while now, musing over DC variable power, jackshafts or not, etc., I find I could use the advice of this group on the half nuts. When I engage the half nuts, the screw bows out from the lathe by .030 inches. This is obviously enough to cause excessive wear, and when the carriage is near head or tailstock, it causes binding. The screw is straight and true until the half nuts are engaged. It looks like I might be able to put a shim between the halfnut mechanism and the carriage, but there may be a better way. Has the group any ideas? Is this common on these lathes? ------- Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2003 21:52:11 EST From: n8as1x~xxaol.com Subject: Re: AA 109 lathe half nut alignment gppainex~xxaol.com writes: > engage the half nuts, > the screw bows out from the lathe by .030 inches no experience w/ 109, but i would disconnect the l/screw hanger x~xx the t/stock end & see if screw moves out ... take appropriate remedial action best wishes docn8as ------- Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2003 21:15:52 -0600 From: "jerdal" Subject: Re: AA 109 lathe half nut alignment My old one did it, I think I shimmed it at the half nuts, but I don't remember. Watch out the lead screw isn't bent. Jerrold ------- Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2003 17:39:31 EST From: anthrhodesx~xxaol.com Subject: Re: AA 109 lathe half nut alignment In a message dated Fri, 14 Mar 2003 00:47:46 -0000, gppaine2001 writes: << [SNIP] I might be able to put a shim between the halfnut mechanism and the carriage, but there may be a better way. Has the group any ideas? >> I think better to shim the leadscrew bearings out by .030" or whatever it takes. Much simpler and probably the way the factory would do it. (If this involved a QC gearbox it might need some rethinking.) Anthony Berkeley, Calif. ------- Date: Sat, 15 Mar 2003 08:36:39 -0600 From: "jerdal" Subject: Re: Re: AA 109 lathe half nut alignment Not to fuss, but the problem is likely the wear in the half-nut assembly, or possibly a P.O. didn't do something right. Also, the LS is fixed in position on the 109s I have seen due to its bearing at the HS end being in the main casting. Therefore shim halfnuts unless the LS tail bearing is actually out of line with HS end. Jerrold ------- Date: Sun, 16 Mar 2003 16:38:00 -0000 From: "gppaine2001" Subject: Re: AA 109 lathe half nut alignment I'd like to thank all those who responded. The headstock and tailstock bearings are both machined in cast bosses on the 109, so no adjustment there. The leadscrew was not bent. I therefore elected to shim the half nuts into alignment. This was a bit more involved than I originally estimated and required removal of the carriage. The screw that provides the bearing surface for the halfnut lever engages a threaded bushing in the lever and was factory peened in three spots to keep it from unscrewing. To disassemble, I had to disassemble the carriage assembly and clamp it in my mill to machine away the deformed area. When disassembled, I noticed that the bearing surface on the halfnut lever was covered in worn factory paint. Cleaning that up caused me to have to add another .004 shim to the .030 shim I had so carefully made. On reassembly, I was pleased to experience smooth halfnut engagement with no bowing or binding of the screw and halfnuts. Thanks again, Gary ------- Date: Sun, 16 Mar 2003 21:24:21 -0000 From: "emers2275" Subject: Atlas 6" I have a problem with my lathe. The carriage crank wheel won't move the carriage. I looked behind the apron and it looks like the gear that runs on the rack is turning but not engaging the rack. I was just wondering if anyone knew if there is an adjustment for this gear for the depth it sits into the rack. Possibly the gear is worn out but it doesn't look like it. Maybe someone has already had this problem and can give me an idea what is causing this. I haven't took the carriage off yet. The lathe is an Atlas Clausing 6"--I don't know the model. Any help would be appreciated. Thank you for your time. ------- Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2003 10:29:52 EST From: LouD31M066x~xxaol.com Subject: Re: Atlas 6" First confirm lathe is an Atlas. Does it have flat ways? If sold by Sears under Craftsman brand look at tag. Does model number begin with 101? If not an Atlas made lathe cure for problem is different. If an Atlas or Craftsman/Atlas try the following: remove lead screw by removing the four slotted screws that attach lead screw bearings to lathe bed the slide leadscrew assembly out of carriage toward the headstock end of lathe bed. With lead screw now removed you can slide carriage toward tailstock end of bed and off bed. Turn carriage over and remove 3 screws holding plate and shims over gear area. Look for loose screws, broken zinc casting, crud. There is not much there so problem should be obvious even if you are inexperienced. Clean and oil everything before you even think about reassembly. Assemble in reverse order of disassembly. No force is required. If it does not fall into place something needs to be adjusted. Easy does it. 6 inch Atlas lathe is easy to take apart repair and reassemble as no special tools, talent or knowledge required. Just remember to use the opportunity to clean, oil and adjust and never use force as it is not required. This is not a sledgehammer job! If you run into a problem ask group. They been there done that. Louis ------- Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2003 16:25:22 -0000 From: "emers2275" Subject: Atlas 6" The tag on the tailstock end of the bed says Atlas at the top, then model no. 10100, sn 005872, then at the bottom it says Clausing Corporation, Kalamazoo, Michigan. I looked at the bottom of the carriage again behind the apron and it looks like the gearbox that runs the gear may be loose from the bottom of the carriage--it looks like theres a gap between the two. Thanks for your help. I'll let you know what I find when I get it apart. ------- Date: Wed, 02 Apr 2003 00:02:04 -0000 From: "Damon" Subject: loooongbed ? Hey guys. I've got a 10" lathe on a 36" bed that has seen better days. It measures 0.003" narrower near the head than at the tail. As luck would have it, I picked up a near virgin 54" bed last week. Now the obvious thing would be to swap all the stuff from the 36" onto the 54" and call it a day. But, then I have a 36" bed with nothing to do with, and probably not a lot of value either. Add in the fact that my current bench (300# of steel, tabletop is 10x3x1/2" c-channel) is just big enough for the 36" bed. Sooooooo I was thinking about getting a stout platform, maybe 8"x3"x1/4" wall box beam, or maybe an I-beam 8" wide. 8 feet long though - Mount the headstock and carraige on the 54" bed. And to the right of that, mount the 36" bed (empty). So I will have all the functionality of the 10x54, and for those loooong pieces, the ability to support them on the 36" bed. I think it would probably be a major pain in the tail (bad pun intended) to get the beds close to aligned. Start by truing the 54", then work on alignment of the 36. And I dont know that I'd be able to use the tailstock on the 36" bed. But - I bet I could pull it off using a fixed steady. Off center if need be to be able to turn true. So is this totally a stupid idea? Requiring a VERY stout base of course. Thoughts? -Damon (trying to resist the temptation of the 12x54 on ebay now) ------- Date: Wed, 02 Apr 2003 03:18:26 -0000 From: "mrb37211" Subject: Re: loooongbed ? Damon - Some folks in the 7x10 mini-lathe group (on Yahoo) have done this more-or-less. I think they actually grafted the beds together. Also, Atlas sold "extension beds" for the old-style 6x18 and the 10" (maybe old-style 12" also) lathes. So it is very doable. I've got a 54" bed 10 and the extension bed which may end up in a similar configuration. Good luck and keep us posted. Charles ------- Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2003 05:02:20 -0500 From: "Cindy/Wayne" Subject: Re: loooongbed ? Damon, I too have had these strange thoughts of taking two beds and make one long one. I have also thought I should cut a section out and make some extra bed feet and make a gap bed A/C lathe.I had a 12x24" and I wanted something longer between centers. Got a deal on a 12x30" and used that for a while, but wanted an even longer bed. now have a 10F x 36 that was like new when puchased second hand, and have only a couple of jobs that could have used a couple more inches of length( story of my life(<: ). When I put up my new hobby shop this year ,and the lathe gets moved out to larger spaces, I still may go for the same idea with the two beds end to end to take the long jobs. Have you thought about lead screw length and rack gear? Good luck, Wayne(rice)Burner ------- Date: Sun, 6 Apr 2003 21:36:27 +0100 From: "Ernest Lear" Subject: Re: Getting the swivel off From: "Brian Squibb" > How do I take the swivel off my 10F? I think I should just > be able to wind it off the saddle? Have got it off the end of > screw but am reluctant to use some 'gentle' persuasion with the > 5 pound hammer Thanks Brian What you have to do is undo the screw bush housing (10F-46), the large nut up against the saddle. The handle and all at this end of the spindle have to be dismantled first to allow the spindle to move rearwards. Undo the screw at the back of the saddle that holds the brass nut (10F-19) and press it down and out of its hole in the saddle. Remove the spindle and nut. Now all you have to do is slide the swivel away and back till it comes off. Make sure you loosen the gib (10-56) and take care of it as you will need it when you come to re-assembling. I just did it plus taking all the rest of my lathe apart. As tomorrow I'm taking my bed for regrinding at a machine shop that houses a 13 foot long surface grinder. And my 3 foot bed will fit nicely on it. This took a bit of finding as most can only surface grind up to 24" max. Then I will hand scrape the saddle to a perfect fit on the bed. I did this (scraping) last about 50 years ago and I'm sure I still can do it. All the jobs I have listed and I will do as it goes together again. Then I will have a Atlas as good as new. Most of the bits required have already been made on this machine and some, by using a Unimat lathe, which I also have. Last week I made a new MS screw (10F-36) and its nut out of P/bronze. I also made the acme die used to thread this screw as I only had a LH 1/2 Acme Tap. It worked perfectly. Removed the .74mm of backlash in this worn assembly; now it is only .03mm on the new home-made one. I'm pleased with that. Regards Ernest ------- Date: Sun, 06 Apr 2003 21:36:14 +0100 From: Brian Squibb Subject: Re: Getting the swivel off Thanks Ernest - I am going to fit a T slotted table. When you have finished yours and have nothing to do, shall I post mine down for the same treatment? :) Brian ------- Date: Sun, 6 Apr 2003 22:43:30 +0100 From: "Ernest Lear" Subject: Re: Getting the swivel off Not Bloody likely but maybe if the price is right. Ernest ------- Date: Mon, 7 Apr 2003 10:20:00 EDT From: catboat15x~xxaol.com Subject: Re: Digest Number 1426 After you loosen the screws and backed them out a ways then you twist, wiggle, pull and jostle to get it off. There are pins under the screws that engage the undercut on the saddle. Don't use a hammer. Might try to use a magnet or as I did one time put a bit of sticky stuff on the end of a thin stick (long Q tip) and pull the pin loose. John in the high desert of California ------ Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 15:48:20 -0000 From: "hankshadow" Subject: Bull gear index Just a reminder. If anyone needs their new 10",12" bull gear indexed I have a jig made up that's free to list members. You pay postage and maintain custody till another member need it. Contact me off line for details and a PIC if you like. Larry LARRY'S FOLLOW-UP ON 30 APRIL 2003: Try here (both lines together for the address): http://photos.groups.yahoo.com/group/atlas_craftsman/lst?.dir=/Index+Ki t++Bull+gear&.src=gr&.order=&.view=t&.done=http%3a//briefcase.yahoo.com/ I can send the same pic if you require. In a nutshell the kit consists of an old gear drilled thru and machined to fit flush, alignment pins, drill bit, and assy. holder. Free you pay postage. ------- Date: Sat, 3 May 2003 00:45:59 EDT From: catboat15x~xxaol.com Subject: Re: Help with carrage problem Hi all: I own a 12 inch Atlas, loose change gears, power cross feed by pulling on a knob. Today was turning some shafts out of that cold rolled steel from the hardware store. Lousy stuff for turning! Anyway all of a sudden my carrage would not crank back for a second cut. The carrage seemed to lock up going either direction after only a couple of turns on the hand wheel. Pretty obvious a chunk of swarf caught on the gear train from the hand wheel to the rack under the bed. I wanted to clean that gear train so thought if I took out the two large cross headed screws in the top of the carrage the apron would drop off exposing that gear train. Took the screws out and everything still seems to be together as before. I have the parts drawings etc, but I am afraid to pry, pound or whatever to release the apron. Always before when I wanted to do anything in the apron or cross slide I would remove it by taking out the bearing at the right end and simply cranking the whole carrage off the end of the bed. This time I can't do that since the carrage will only move a short distance before locking up. Any advice for getting to the gears inside the apron would certainly be appreciated, as everything now is in fair adjustment and don't want to mess anything up. John in the high desert of California 12 inch Atlas Mini Mill Rusty file ------- Date: Sat, 03 May 2003 00:38:31 -0500 From: Jon Elson Subject: Re: Help with carrage problem You really need to pull the leadscrew before doing this. If the rack really is just blocked with swarf (somewhat unusual) you can drop the apron 1/8" or so to allow the pinion some slack. There are 2 big dowel pins that align the apron. You may have to pry a bit, depending on how tightly the dowels gripping the holes in the apron. You might leave the 2 Phillips head screws partly in, and tap on them gently, then apply a little pressure evenly once a gap opens up. I'm afraid you may have more trouble than swarf in the rack. There is a Zamak piece that holds the reduction gears for the carriage pinion, and it is prone to cracking. When it lets go, the whole works can fall right out, or it can bind things up. There are 3 screws on the front of the apron around the carriage crank. You can see the mechanism from the left side of the apron. You might check for looseness of the screws, and watch or feel for movement of the bracket when you rock the carriage crank. If you can feel the bracket move when you turn the crank, the bracket is likely broken. Some people have had good luck epoxying or soldering (? you can't braze Zamak, the melting point is too low) this Zamak part. Others have made a new piece out of solid aluminum billet or steel. Umm, one thing comes to mind, the halfnuts couldn't have dropped into engagement whithout you noticing it, could they? That will bind the carriage, for sure. Jon -------- Date: Tue, 6 May 2003 00:15:08 EDT From: catboat15x~xxaol.com Subject: Re: Need advice on change gears azbrunox~xxyahoo.com writes: > I'm trying to set up different threading gears on my lathe, but I'm > having trouble removing gears. I could use some advice; I don't want > to force anything. Light force is the way to go here. The die cast gears on an Atlas fit pretty tight onto the bushings. What I do is to use a pry bar (old beat up screw driver) to pry a bit at a time at several locations around the edge of the gears. Don't pry too hard as that die cast metal is getting old by now. Just kind of rock the gear loose. I have had to in some gears on an Atlas to lightly break the edge of the mounting hole and keyway with a fine needle file to remove what is apparently mold flash on some of the gears. Better a tight fit than sloppy. John in the high desert of California ------- Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 16:53:32 -0400 From: Ronald Thibault Subject: Re: Bushing Carriage Handwheel At 04:34 PM 5/13/2003 +0000, you wrote:>Dear Group, >I'm finally getting round to puting in a bushing for my handwheel >spindle on my 12x54 101.07403 lathe, but am having trouble finding a >bushing source. I imagine that I'll have to bore out the new bushing >to fit the shaft exactly, since the ID of an off the shelf size is >unlikely to match. I obviously don't want a pre-hardened drill >bushing, as machining it will be too difficult. Has anyone done this >vital task on their own lathe, and can point me in the right >direction? I've already tried J&L, Travers, KBC, Airgas, Reid and >Wholesale Tools. Thanks in advance, Richard in Los Angeles I mounted my apron to an angle plate mounted on the topslide. I bored the handwheel, and countersank it to take sintered bronze flanged bearings. you can see a picture of it in the Atlas Lathe II section of my web site (address below). Ron Thibault Warrenville, SC USA http://personal.atl.bellsouth.net/t/h/thib9564/ ------- Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 18:19:17 -0700 From: "Bob May" Subject: Re: Bushing Carriage Handwheel You may be supprised at what i available for bushings! Stop by a good bearing place and see what they have in stock and available for order for bushings. You may need to do either the inside or outside of a bushing to make it fit perfectly but there are really a lot of different ones available. Bob May http://nav.to/bobmay NEW! http://bobmay.astronomy.net ------- Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 21:20:25 -0400 From: "piggy" Subject: Re: Bushing Carriage Handwheel and i easily made a bushing for the very place talked about here. also made a new nut for the compound on my atlas , that wasnt so easy but the next one will be easier as i now have the tool made to cut the internal acme threads that were required. Don T. EVO Power & Machine www.accessatc.net/~piggy www.snartracing.com ------- Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 16:00:36 -0000 From: "joekott1" Subject: Re: Bushing Carriage Handwheel Richard, I am probably going to undertake the same project very soon (wife willing). I plan on sourcing a bronze bushing from McMaster. They have a fantastic web site that makes it easy to find parts (pardon the mcmaster plug). Hope this helps and good luck! www.mcmaster.com Joe ------- Date: Sat, 14 Jun 2003 22:32:29 -0000 From: "speedphoto300" Subject: Re: Play in the carriage hand wheel > On my Atlas 10"-F series there is a small amount of play in the > carriage hand wheel. When I rotate the hand wheel (clockwise or > counter clockwise) the wheel will turn about a quarter inch before > the carriage will move along the bed. How do I get rid of this play? It's supposed to be that way, the handwheel drives the carriage through a gear reduction to the rack on the bed. The whole thing will bind up if there isn't clearance in the gear train. 1/4 inch isn't out of line. If there is a lot more than this it's possible that the Zamac housing for the reduction gears is cracked, not an uncommon problem. Joe ------- Date: Sun, 15 Jun 2003 01:27:37 -0500 From: Jon Elson Subject: Re: Play in the carriage hand wheel First, check the large Phillips head screws on the apron. If they are loose, you get this. If not, there is a reduction gear train that a lot of people don't know to oil. There are 3 oiler ports on the apron, and you need to get some oil on there every once in a while or the bushings (or lack of them, actually) get opened up on the shaft the handwheel runs on, and the intermediate gear. When it gets bad enough, the holes need to be bored out and have brass or bronze bushings installed. But, your amount of play sounds very normal. I've never seen an Atlas with less. Jon ------- Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2003 12:29:13 -0500 From: Jon Elson Subject: Re: Feed Reverse Lever Chatter dk_gip wrote: > I'm getting a lot of chatter ( or whatI think is a lot of chatter ) in > the feed reverse lever when it's engaged forward or reverse on my Atlas > QC 10F.This lever is vibrating pretty good and I am wondering if this > is normal. When the lever is in neutral everything sounds great...nice > and smooth. I just need a few reference points on the way things > should sound when the lathe is running. When in neutral, the gear train is not engaged. When engaged, all the gears are spinning, and Atlas machines do tend to have noisy gear trains. but, the lever itself doesn't rattle on mine. There are ways to adjust the gear lash, and I suspect that is what is wrong. The manual says to put a piece of thin card stock (I'm guessing that is between .010 and .015") between the gears, engage them, and lock the setting there. The plate the reversing lever detents into can be moved to adjust gear lash a bit, but it is a compromise between F and R. There is an extended handle under the lower gear cover that allows you to set the lash between the next gears in the chain and the reversing tumbler gear. There is a nut on a movable bushing that sets the lash between the intermediate gears and the QC box. Any or all of these could be too loose or too tight. When you get it right, it shouldn't shake, but will still make a fair bit of noise, much louder than when the gears sre disengaged. I only run the gear train when actually using threading or power feed. >Another dumb question: On the back-gear, the smaller gear the drives >the "bull" has a nice crack along one of the teeth. Do not use >the back gear right! If part of the tooth remains, you might be able to continue using it under light loads. If the entire part of the tooth that engages the bull gear is gone, then it could bind up, so you need to repair it. There are ways to epoxy, pin or solder on replacement teeth that have been described in the past. Or, you could get a replacement gear on eBay or some other source for used parts. Jon ------- Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2003 11:47:42 -0500 From: Jon Elson Subject: Re: 101.07403 lubrication jrw064 wrote: >I recently noticed that the lead screw support at the tailstock end >does not look like it is taking lubrication properly, the spot near >the drive gears takes lubrication fine. Does one have to dismantle >the support from the leadscrew on the tailstock end or is there an >alternate method for this. I suspect that the hole is plugged, but >was wondering about how to correct this issue. It depends on whether this is a sintered bronze bushing, plain Zamak with no bushing, or babbit with an oil hole. I thought these were just a hole bored in the Zamak, but I could be wrong. (Or, it could have been repaired.) On the two Atlas lathes I've had, these bearings didn't take much oil, either. One drop a week was plenty. It is VERY easy to take the support off and inspect, and set the thrust bearing clearance. Literally a 5 minute job to remove, clean, inspect, relube and reinstall! Don't let it intimidate you! (When I got my first lathe, I was intimidated too, but eventually found out there were no intricate alignments that could be thrown off by disassembling the thing.) Jon ------- Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2003 19:46:10 -0400 From: "Bill Hardin" Subject: RE: spindle [AA 109 REMOVAL PROCEDURE] Great. To remove the spindle, standing at the back of the machine, remove the split collar on the far right inside the headstock. This will allow the back gear assembly and pulley to slide to the right, exposing a woodruff key in the spindle. Remove the woodruff key. Remove the spindle gear on the end of the spindle on your right, just outside the headstock. Loosen the nut that adjusts the tapered bearing on the left of the headstock. It is not necessary to remove this nut, although you can and allow it to float on the spindle. At this point, nothing is holding the spindle. It will slide out to the left, toward the tailstock. It may have the tapered bearing snugged down, but you have loosened the nut and it may move slightly to the left. The spindle should move freely to the left. If necessary, take a piece of 1/2" wooden dowel and tap it lightly with a hammer to remove. Once the spindle is removed, you will be left with a bronze sleeve bearing on the right side of the headstock (3/4" OD, 1" long, 0.550" ID) and the split taper bearing on the left with the nut. The weakest spot in the whole 109 is the threaded nose, just into the 1/2 x 20 tpi thread. When you consider a 1/2" threaded nose with a #0 morse taper through it, you can see that there is insufficient "meat" to take too much abuse. You have the option when replacing it to go to a 3/4" x 16 tpi spindle. This is the best answer, unless you are too heavily committed to 1/2" chucks and plates. Hope this helps. Bill Hardin www.homeshopsupply.com Craftsman 109 Lathe Support ------- Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2003 17:58:44 -0700 (PDT) From: Chris Hamel Subject: RE: spindle Good directions. Just don't make the mistake I did. I knew it was a bad idea to tap on end of the spindle to remove it, so I thought it would be OK to tap on the back of the chuck lightly to pull the spindle out. I ended up bending the spindle and had to have a replacement made. ------- Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2003 00:36:38 -0400 From: "Kevin J Wilby" Subject: RE: spindle allright, i've done what i can, and what seems to still be attached is the thing next to the pully steps, with gears in it and a metal shell around it. that thing is still there. i took off the two screws of the shell and looked at the gears but there's no way they're coming off. it's obvious that something is still attached because that spindle isn't budging. is there anything i can do about that? thanks kevin ------- Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2003 07:50:28 -0700 (PDT) From: Chris Hamel Subject: RE: spindle Kevin, if you have removed the split collar, and slid the pulley assembly back to remove the woodruff key, the spindle should slide out. This assumes you have backed off the nut on the front tapered bearing and you have also need to remove the gear at the back end of the spindle. The spindle may be a bit tight, so you may have to use a 1/2 inch dowel to tap on the tail end. Don't try to push or pull it out any other way. Good Luck. Chris ------- Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2003 23:35:02 -0500 From: "jerdal" Subject: Re: spindle Another point, if the spindle is worn, the grooves in it and the bearing may have interlocked so that they won't like to slide apart. Mine did that. I ended up re-reaming the bearing and smoothing the spindle, and finally made another spindle. Anyhow, take the nut all the way off the back of the bearing (just in front of the backgear housing) and slide out the spindle AND bearing together, for separation outside. Jerrold ------- Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2003 14:09:43 -0000 From: "joekott1" Subject: apron removal and boring I am working on removing the apron on my Craftsman 12" so that I can re-bore and bush the hole for the carriage handwheel. There is way to much play in the bore for my liking so it needs a little work - sounds like this might be a common problem? I removed the two bolts on the top of the saddle but the apron will not budge. I cannot see anything else holding the apron onto the saddle. Are there additionl bolts holding the two together somewhere? I do plan on tearing the whole thing down to mount it for the boring operation but I thought I would ask the group if anyone has any advice on this little project/nightmare. Thanks in advance for all of your help! ------- Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2003 11:02:07 -0400 From: HUNLEY31x~xxaol.com Subject: Re: apron removal and boring JoeKott, you're on the right track. You have removed the leadscrew right? Anyway the apron is held in place with the two allen head screws that you have removed. It's held in alignment by two small pins that seat in the carriage. Try putting the allen screws back in, but not tight. Allow them to stick up past the surface of the carriage. Tap down on the screws gently and evenly to separate the two casting. You could accomplish the same thing with 'prying'. I think the tap the screw method is easier and less likely to cause damage. Hope this helps some. Hank ------- Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2003 13:15:01 -0400 From: HUNLEY31x~xxaol.com Subject: Re: apron removal and boring >> Since this business of removing the apron has been brought up several times in the few weeks I've been on the list, it must be a frequent problem. I'm gonna have to do it on the PB, and unless you guys with much more experience warn me off it, I'm gonna D&T the apron 1/4"NF twice in line with and close to the locator pins, so I can drive in jack screws if I ever have to do it again. I imagine that to maintain accuracy, the pins have to be an interference fit? << I think that after the first time you remove it you won't have a problem in the future. Your only concern will be not to drop the apron after your first tap on the screws. Hank -------- Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2003 08:04:43 -0400 From: Ronald Thibault Subject: Re: Re: sphere (Atlas) gear case for manuual feed >><< I don't know how best to describe it but here goes,behind the carriage the feed screw passes through a triangular casting which has a shaft with small gear at one end (16DP 12 tooth) Which I have had to replace but that is another story, and a larger gear at the other end passing at right angles to the feed screw, it is this casting that has cracked if you have a spare. the forward handle operates through these gears. hope I have explained it OK. >> Brian; I fixed mine using epoxy and a length of brass strip, on my old lathe. There is a short article on the repair on my web site (address below). Ron Thibault Warrenville, SC USA http://personal.atl.bellsouth.net/t/h/thib9564/ ------- Date: Sat, 9 Aug 2003 12:31:00 EDT From: Sagebush9x~xxaol.com Subject: Re: sphere (Atlas) gear case for manuual feed Jo, my "gearcase"(12", 101.28990) was broken too, one mounting foot was broken off-I took it out to measure it up w/intentions of making one on the mill. I had some "aluminum" welding rod laying on the bench that I bought just to try on another al. part I needed to build up...decided to see if it would weld Zamak, since it was broken anyway...surprise! It actually stuck, not pretty, but functional. I will still make one, but now I can use the lathe meantime. "Weld-it" rod, made by Hobart, p/n 770206. As they say, your results may vary... Ron in CO... ------- Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 23:11:08 -0500 From: Jon Elson Subject: Re: 12 x 36 Lubrication for Back Gear rpm2290028 wrote: >Dear Group, >I have an early 12 x 36, 101.07403, with timken bearings and the 3/8" >ways. I am now starting to use the back gear a lot more, and I am >concerned that the back gear part of the main spindle isn't getting >enough lubrication. I am aware of the lubrication hole under the >set-screw in the second pulley, but I have no set-screw in mine( the >original pulleys that came with the lathe)and the hole in the bottom >appears to be a blind hole, I put oil in there but it doesn't appear to go >immediately on to the spindle. Can you actually see the spindle through >this hole, or does the oil penetrate sideways along the inner spindle? My understanding of this (I've had this apart a few times, but always forgot to take a good look at the bushings in the pulley) is that there are two brass or bronze bushings pressed into the ends of the pulley. This makes the center of the pulley a sort of oil reservoir. If the crud is cleared away, you should be able to see the spindle through the hole. The parts manual actually shows the bushings as separate parts. >I had the whole headstock apart a couple of years ago, and >everything appeared to be in very good shape, so I am hoping that >this hole is also okay. I can see a clean bottom to the hole, so its >not plugged up with crud at all. Any ideas? Hmmm, this is very odd. They might drill the hole in such a manner that there is a very small break-through right in the center, only, for the oil to get into the interior of the pulley. They can't drill this hole all the way through or the screw would bottom out on the spindle. You want the screw to bottom out on something that serves the purpose of a seal, so that it doesn't start slinging the oil all over the place, especially on the belt. Jon ------- Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 08:21:58 -0500 From: "Thomas Petersen" Subject: RE: 12 x 36 Lubrication for Back Gear Another possibility is that they did not drill the hole through properly (or drill an oil port in the bottom of the hole). On my Atlas 7" Shaper, the oil hole for the "Ram Adjusting Screw and Crank Lever Pin" was a blind hole. I found this while rebuilding the entire machine. I cleaned and scraped the bottom of the hole, but there was no hole (oil port) to let the oil out the bottom of the hole. So, when I had it disassembled, I drilled one. I always wondered how many people over the life of this machine followed the instructions on the Lubrication Chart to "Oil liberally every time the shaper is used". I am not exactly sure how similar the spindles are between the Atlas miller and Atlas lathe. But, based on Jon's description, it seems that the miller has a scaled down version of the same basic spindle pulley configuration. I just had the spindle on my Atlas MFB mill apart. The spindle pulley has two bronze bushing, one on each side with the oil hole between. The oil set screw hole for the spindle pulley is drilled through and tapped almost all the way through. The treads are not complete at the bottom of the hole. With the set screw out and a flash light, I can easily see the spindle and part of the front bronze bushing. Hope this helps, Tom. ------- Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 23:19:43 -0000 From: "rpm2290028" Subject: Re: 12 x 36 Lubrication for Back Gear-Success! Thanks Jon and Tom for your timely advice, good to get the ol' brain working. I took the whole headstock apart, which was a lot easier than the first time, which makes me wonder why I put it off :-) Perhaps everything slid apart because it was now all oiled nicely! The problem was that the two bushings were actually pushed together, so there was virtually no space between them, I was looking at the outside of the second bushing at the bottom of the oiling hole. I carefully pressed one out, so I could move the second one into its proper position, then the first one back in place. I was lucky, there must have been enough oil that seeped through the crack between the two bushings to provide enough lubrication. This is probably how they were installed by the factory, otherwise why would you move one out of place? It's probably a good thing for us all to check that oil is going where it's supposed to, otherwise it could get a bit expensive... Richard in Los Angeles ------- Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2003 22:48:44 EDT From: HUNLEY31x~xxaol.com Subject: Re: Adjusting play in carriage. <> Jeb, I'm not sure what model you have but my 12" is shimmed to adjust the carriage BUT, This is going to be hard to explain, bear (?) with me. To make things tighten up, you REMOVE the long thin and hard to see shims under the bearing plate. The factory puts 2 or 3 just for the purpose. Be careful to remove only one at a time. I though they were wear spots till I looked real hard. If you have visible play my bet is that somebody added shims in the wrong place. Hope this helps some. Hank ------- Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 00:39:42 -0500 From: Jon Elson Subject: Re: Adjusting play in carriage. You remove shims to get the play down to nearly zero. If the gib plate has a big groove worn in it, you can turn it over. The shims are laminated with .004" laminations. I usually fine tune with aluminum foil, at about .0015" each. A common problem is the shim gets caught by one of the screws and becomes accordion-pleated, causing massive clearance. Jon ------- Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 15:08:45 EDT From: LouD31M066x~xxaol.com Subject: Re: Adjusting play in carriage. Clean bed rails and mike them at several points from headstock to tailstock to see how much wear exists. If major variation exists it will complicate things. Shims are made to removed to compensate for the wear which reduces thickness of bed rails that saddle clamps to. Trouble is it seldom is a uniform wear. Most work is done in area near headstock and thus rails tend to worn more there than away from the headstock. If you tighten up saddle for area near the headstock it may be too tight to move at any other point on bed. You can set it up for most used region and reset when working in another area and live with it or you can set out to rebuild machine. Unless you have time and money to spare think things thru carefully. I have gone the full rebuild route with 6 inch 101.214 and it is not cost effective. I did wind up with a machine with a nice smooth feel and I learned more about lathe than any book could teach. If you have a piece of junk you may be better set it aside as a parts machine and look for one in better shape. Your machine may only need a minor tune up and adjustment and give excellent service. Hope this is the case. Louis ------- Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 22:39:09 -0000 From: "rpm2290028" Subject: Eliminating lathe vibration I have recently had my headstock apart on my 101.07403 12x36 C/A lathe, after problems with lubrication for the back gear. That went very well, but upon re-assembly, I noticed a lot more heavy vibration, that would even affect the tailstock, so i knew something had changed. I tested the headstock, which was fine, and what i had not done was to tighten up the lock bolt that runs through the two straps that hold up the motor platform - big vibration, with the counter shaft shaking away happily. Not realising what I had omitted, I experimented with various supports for the motor, eventually finishing at a simple wood block that transferred the weight of the motor directly to the bench, just enough to take the weight and still leave the linked belt tight enough to drive the lathe. All the heavy vibration has now gone, and all it took was a small 5" long wooden block. Being a sophisticated bugger, (English, we can't help ourselves!)I then made the block a two step block so that it would also support the different motor height on the second drive pulley as well. Jon explained some time ago about how the motor hanging off the back of the headstock tends to twist the bed slightly, so this too is eliminated with a simple block.Perhaps i'm the simple block for not thinking of it earlier :-) Richard in los angeles ------- Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2003 03:28:43 -0000 From: "KDSpriggs" Subject: Re: atlas 10" leadscrew reversing gearbox questions --- In atlas_craftsmanx~xxyahoogroups.com, "Jeff Lind" wrote: > I have a TH42 10" lathe that needs some TLC. When leadscrew is in reverse, the top gear (9-47) rides up on the stud (9-72) and gears bind and the drive slips. All three gears show some wear, from this. I can't tighten this stud up hard - it would bring the gear up to far away from the other two gears. < I had a similar problem with my Craftsman 12x24. It was not as bad as yours and my gears didn't appear to be worn very much, however the gears did not mesh close enough together. I fixed it by making a new stud and off setting the threaded portition of the stud from the main body. As I recall I put about .075 ofsett in it. As you rotate the stud the gear moves in and out, that is the depth of the meshing changes. When you have the correct clearance, tighten the nut. ------- Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2003 13:44:58 -0000 From: "jf53b" Subject: Carriage binding up while power feeding Help Please. I have a Craftsman 101.07301 Lathe. The carriage gets in a bind and breaks a tooth of the Carriage Traverse Shaft & Pinion (part #M6-68). This has happened twice in 4 months. I checked gib adjustment and made sure of plenty of lube on the ways. The pinion that I put in this spring showed alot of tooth wear and was missing 3 teeth. The first one that broke was the original and showed normal wear and was only missing 1 tooth. Is there anything else I should check so it doesn't happen again. BTW, I bought the lathe in Feb this year. Thanks in advance. Jim ------- Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2003 18:46:09 -0500 (CDT) From: dswrx~xxwebtv.net Subject: Re: Re: Carriage binding up while power feeding Jim, if you are using the power feed on the carriage, then the problem has to be in the rack and pinion. The handwheel on the carriage turns as it is just "going along for the ride", so to speak. I'm sure you have checked the rack for foreign material in the teeth. So... This means that you must have something in the gear box of the hand feed that is binding. I would remove it and check for loose metal bits that could jam the gears. Or even severe wear on the bearings allowing the gears to miss-mesh. Leo (pearland, tx) ------- Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2003 14:37:04 EDT From: catboat15x~xxaol.com Subject: Re: Carriage binding up while power feeding I never broke a tooth, but when my carrage got into a bind and I took the carrage apart I found a piece of swarf imbedded between the gear teeth of the second gear (two teeth of the pinion). Apparently the chip would end up in different places at different times. I picked that out and everything was free again. At least on my carrage there were some shims between the saddle and the apron apparently to adjust the engagement of the gears with the rack. I was careful (at least this time) to keep track of the shims and put them back in the same places. Maybe that is part of your problem and rather than use a gear with a missing tooth, I would either get a new gear or try to repair the old one with pins and some metal containing epoxy. I would recomend taking the apron apart and make sure all gears are clean of any chips. And while you are looking check out the bracket (die casting again) that holds the gears in place. I have heard of this casting breaking. I read where some have repaired it using brass strips and or metal powder containing epoxy. I don't think you can braze or weld the die casting if it is broken, so epoxy or JB weld is the repair. (Maybe JB weld with a strip of glass cloth inbedded in the epoxy, would be my first try.) John in the high desert of California ------- Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 12:19:28 -0700 From: "GuyW" Subject: Re: Digest Number 1642 / Chatter (long) >That little six inch is a LIGHT lathe. One way to avoid chatter is to... Here's a few ideas I've filed re chatter (some or all of which I may have shared here before)... -Guy- (From Dave Gingery email) "The most common error in lathe tool setup is allowing the point of the cutter to lead its mounting axis. For light duty machines it is necessary for the cutting point to trail its mounting axis, and that is the recommended practice on all machinery set up. When the cutting point leads the mounting axis the strains tend to pull the cutting point into the stock, causing chatter or worse. The effect is the same as excessive rake. For example machining brass calls for negative rake and some steel alloys are almost as difficult to machine as brass." SOME OTHER IDEAS (NEW TO GUY!) ON SOURCES OF LATHE CHATTER The following concepts (which I ripped off the Chaski board) don't affect the Gingery patterns and castings, but your ultimate assembly of and happiness with the lathe. Basic ideas on preventing chatter are apparently to create rotating "smoothness" in the basic lathe, and never to allow vibration or roughness to develop (duh, Guy!). I see this affecting our pulleys (straight & concentric enuff?), belts (some real junk out there) (V, round, flat or ??) and how cheap/loose the motor is. The idea of an intervening power shaft, clutch, and flywheel to isolate power surges seems very good, however, I lean toward a smaller type of lineshaft as compared to a huge old overhead system - perhaps a scaled-up watchmakers-lathe-type of lineshaft. -Guy- "hi, greg, the dalton is a really nice little machine, and will do good work once you have it dialed in. there's a "secret"...for getting good work from light machines....not really very secret, tho, cos the war production board put out a pamphlet about this technique back, during the war when every machine in the country was expected to work three shifts, 24 hrs a day. this "secret" is in the mounting...make up forms, and pour a heavy cement base for the lathe, somewhat like an elongated truncated pyramid, with a clearance area for the operator's feet. arrange a three point mounting for the lathe, and bolt the lathe down firmly with cement anchor bolts......the sheer mass/weight of the cement base adds rigidity and damps out vibration...after stripping the forms away, when the concrete has fully cured...pry the concrete base up from the floor, just enough to fit three dense rubber pads under it...three point mounting again. the magnitude of difference this makes with a light lathe in the south bend/logan class has to be seen to be appreciated. Mount the motor and countershaft either above or behind the lathe, on wall uprights or ceiling joists...making a small lathe "self-contained" may look pretty, but is a bad idea, 'cause any little bit of vibration or resonances in the motor or c'shaft will be transmitted to the lathe bed ...and the idea of the heavy base is to isolate the lathe from external influences, as well as to enhance rigidity. if you can find a light c'shaft clutch assembly, bush it nicely, make a hardwood sleeve to increase the diameter of the pulley face of the clutch, and use a small pulley on motor for single reduction...bring the lever for the clutch down to a convenient point over the lathe. the difference in convenience in having the motor run constant speed whilst you start/stop the spindle with a clutch, as compared to having to start/stop the rotating mass of the motor, may well be only a minor convenience, but its well worth doing. belting is straightforward.....since you're out in duvall, you'll have a seattle phone book...look in the yellow pages under "belting" or "power transmission".....best is to learn to "skive", that is, form tapered ends, and glue up leather belts....all belts stretch, and will need to be shortened from time to time.....or...have the supplier cut you a roll of a suitable width of light "oil-proof" cotton/rubber belting, get a "clipper vise lacer" (i've seen those come up cheaply on ebay) and run metal laced belts....well, there's a start....good luck....... : ) cheers, carla" (Poster currently unknown) "Carla's post was right on the money, as usual. I'll share a little of my experiences with you, as well. Years ago I knew a fellow in his 80's who had both an impressive collection of old engines and a reputation as a first class machinist. He and I became pretty close friends and he became a sort of mentor to me. When I began putting together my own shop, he helped me set up all the machinery and gave me the line shafting. Now, today a lot of guys will scoff at a bunch of pulleys and shafting lurking over your head but believe me, I wouldn't have it any other way. My first lathe was a sebastian and it had an adapter on it to support the cone pulley and the motor. It worked but I couldn't get a nice finish. Bill told me to get the shaft hung from the ceiling and bolt the motor to the floor and try it. The difference was amazing. Most of the motors we have available to us are not balanced nearly as well as we think and, if it is fixed rigid to the lathe, the vibration carries through to the machine and makes itself known to you as a fine chatter. I have run machinery with the motor bolted to the wall, and to the rafters, and both of those locations were noisy, the hum of the motor is a 60 cycle vibration and the building simply begins to resonate at that frequency. Most annoying. The concrete floor does a wonderful job of dampening the vibrations. Hang your countershaft and your lineshaft, you will belt your motor to the lineshaft and run a straight belt and a twisted belt to the countershaft clutch pulleys. Drive the lineshaft at 250 rpm (pretty much a standard for small lineshafts). If you have an induction repulsion motor, they are the best, they have high starting torque and start smoother than capacitor motors. Very few machine tools had capacitor start motors on them, they start with a jerk and tend to vibrate more. If you can get single ply leather belting, use it over canvas/rubber. The oil that invariably gets on the belts will turn the canvas/rubber belting into a gooey mess in 10 years. A single ply belt, about 3/32 thick and 1/4 narrower than your pulleys will transmit all the power you need. If the belt is too thick, it takes more tension to make it drive and is hard on the bearings all the way around. It is the friction of the belt against the pulley that drives, so a supple belt can conform to the pulley and do the work without pulling it real tight. I lace all my belts with rawhide shoelaces. This is easy to learn if you buy the Robert Smith books "Advanced Machine Work" and "Elements of Machine Work" from Lindsay. Metal laces slip and wear the pulleys. Rawhide laced belts can be lumpy if not done right and this too can set up a vibration. Cemented belts are wonderful but they are a pain to shorten when they stretch. It is advisable to slack the belts, if possible, when the machine is going to be idle for a period of time to limit the amount they stretch. I also have a 10" Logan and a 9" southbend and I have run both of them from a lineshaft for several years with good results. I wish I could run my B'port from it as well. The darn v-belt drive is a source of irritation, a new belt will run smooth for a few months and then get lumpy and start to vibrate. Maybe this is why Southbend stayed with flat belts on their lathes until relatively recently. Good luck with your machine, and if it seems like a lot of work to set up the drive arrangement, it is but you get out of it what you put in." ------- Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2003 21:41:57 -0500 From: "Jeb" Subject: Chatter much better - but Thanks for all the suggestions! I implemented some of them and my chatter decreased greatly. I am still having a problem with the finish. It looks like a lot of fine grooves. I placed some pictures under photos in the finishes folder. You need to view them full size to see what I am talking about. You will see some light chatter in one picture and the grooving on the other. Anyone have any suggestions? I am still using the lantern post on my 618. I tried three differently ground tools but, ended up with the same type finish. I ground some with a pointed end, a rounded end and one with a square type end. I hoping to get a QC tool post for Christmas and maybe this will cure the problem. Jeb. ------- Date: Wed, 08 Oct 2003 00:50:04 -0500 From: Jon Elson Subject: Re: Chatter much better - but I don't know if the chatter marks can be made any better. That is actually pretty good for lathe cutting of arbitrary steel. If you want a real fine finish, you need a toolpost grinder - and maybe a bigger lathe to use it on. The grooved one is pretty bad. Is this the same material as the "chatter" one? If so, the cutting tool must have been terrible. My best results with HSS tools was with a roughly 90 degree point set up such that one face was left, and one facing the work. The one facing the work would be tilted so that the point would touch first, and the rest of the face would be swung away from the turned surface by no more than 10 degrees. This seemed to make the best turned surfaces. On a 6x18, you can't have much radius on the tool tip or you'll get chatter. For the finishing pass, I would often advance .001" or less, and use high spindle speed and the slowest possible power feed. Sometimes I would change the gear train settings to get even slower feeds than were normally available. If these are not the same material, then the problem is obvious! Some materials look like mild steel, but simply cannot be turned to a fine finish. Annealing might help some hardened materials, but not all of them. Jon ------- Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2003 02:00:10 -0400 From: "mertbaker" Subject: Re: Chatter much better - but The chatter comes from improperly ground tooling/tool height, & slop in the machine. The "threads" are normal, as you are cutting a spiral of metal off the work. taking the finest feed, you get the finest "thread" effect. Rounding the toolbit nose will nearly make it go away, and a 60-70 thou "flat nose" will make it disappear. Use the flat nose as a final cut, taking only 1 or two thou. & a fine feed. Mert ------- Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2003 00:07:25 -0500 From: Jon Elson Subject: Re: 10" spindle chatter gauge-onex~xxwebtv.net wrote: >I have an Atlas 10", model QC54. I have noticed recently that the >spindle has started making a chattering sound - especally at startup or >shutdown, and at high speed. >I have traced the noise to the spindle drive pulley - the engagement pin >from the large gear is chattering around in the pulley. If I hold the >pulley and move the chuck fwd. & back, there is play between the pulley >and gear, and you can see the pin moving slightly. Moving the pin to a >different hole in the pulley made no difference. >The oil hole plug screw in the pulley does not touch the spindle on my >lathe. Is it supposed to? If it did it would help solve this problem, >by locking the pulley to the spindle and lessening the strain on the >pin. What have some of you done to solve this problem? When you use the lathe in back gear mode, you are supposed to put oil in that hole first. Otherwise, you get what you now see, the bushings inside the pulley have gotten worn. Don't jam it with the oil hole screw, that will mar the spindle, and you may not be able to get the bearings out of it later. If there is much play there, you may have to replace the bushings. If not, maybe just putting some oil in the oil hole will stop the chattering. Jon -------- Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2003 04:42:56 -0000 From: "donh213502000" Subject: No More Grease! I have a TH36 Atlas lathe which has the Vertical countershaft assy. The vertical belt tensioning arrangement puts the countershaft up high and directly in line with the operator (me). The countershaft bearings are constantly throwing grease and ruining my shirts and staining my glasses. This has been such a problem that I decided to fix it. Here is the fix if anyone else wants to correct this problem. Turn a new bearing holder with the following dimensions. Length 1.5 inches, (same as original countershaft bearing housing). ID should be drilled or bored to 1 1/8 inches. This ID clears the inner race of the new sealed ball bearings (bearings to be described shortly). The OD of the bearing housing should be 1.9 inches. The original housing is cast and is approx 1.8 inches at the fattest point. The slightly larger housing gives a little more metal to hold the new ball bearings as they are pressed in. After the basic houseing is turned, both ends should be bored to accomodate the new ball bearings. The bore depth shoud be .436 and the OD of the Bore should be 1.623. This bore will allow the bearings to be pressed in flush and this OD will give a .002 press fit. I bought 4 sealed ball bearings from allied bearings (price approx. $11.50 each). Part # R12 2Rs. Press these into each end of the new bearing housings. All that is left to do is to mill (7/16 dia.) the dimples for the adjustment screws in the middle of each housing. I milled the holes .1 inches deep exactly 180 degrees from each other. The ends of the housing can be radiused for sex appeal if desired. These units will directly replace the old unsealed cage bearings. Use the original shaft collars to hold them in the correct possition. The outer lip of the shaft collars may need to be turned back slighly so they don't touch the outer race of the new bearings. They may not last 50 years like the original. The balls do have less contact area. But, what the heck, with the money you save on new shirts, they can be replaced every 5 years or so. Your wife will probably appreciate less grease also. Great info on this users group. Thanks to all who have contributed. Hope my fix will help someone out. Don Harris ------- Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2003 09:03:24 -0000 From: "Ernest Lear" Subject: Re: No More Grease! Don. I have the same problem with my Vertical countershaft assy and I'm also about to renewing mine with more up to date bearings. I'm at the moment looking at what bearings and there cost on the market. And so far I've come up with using needle bearings in seal press steel housings plus harden steel inner rings on the shaft.These bearings and matching inner rings are supplied by Torrington's and their designation Numbers for these are HJ-122012(bearing) plus IR-081212(Ring). The price per each set is Ł22 inc. UK 17.5% V.A.Tax and carriage etc. A little more than yours. Now at the moment I'm at the design stage before I start making it up and also got to plan it, to use my original countershaft while I'm making all the new parts I will require. What you have done will help me to decide my final solution for my replacement assy. Ernest ------- Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2003 19:36:30 -0600 From: "Jeb" Subject: RE: Removed the back gear,1/8" ball bearing fell out, Bill Smith [mailto:andyjack32x~xxyahoo.com] wrote: >> Removed the back gear, 1/8" ball bearing fell out, and I'll be danged if I can see where it came from. Anyone know? My lathe is a Craftsman 101.7301. << Bill, there is a ball bearing between the right side of the headstock on the outside and the backgear shaft (the part of the shaft that has the short handle on it). There is also a spring in there. Jeb ------- Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2003 17:25:45 -0500 (EST) From: k-qx~xxwebtv.net Subject: Re: Removed the back gear,1/8" ball bearing fell out, Bill: There are two (2) ball bearings in the 6" head stock (checked the print to make sure I was right and get parts number). The 1/8" ball bearing (part # m6-214) is used with the plunger and spring for the back gear lock pin. There is also a 3/16" ball, (part # 9-10) used with the index pin and spring. Hope this helps, Ken ------- Date: Wed, 05 Nov 2003 15:00:11 -0000 From: "jdlt166" Subject: Help with AA/Craftsman Lathe Hi, Found this group while looking for answers to a problem I have with my old lathe given to me by my grandfather. My problem is that the faceplate has a wobble to it. I removed the spindle, cleaned the bearing and shaft, put it back together, tightened the front bearing, but still have a wobble. Does not look like the shaft is bent, but I could be wrong. Could the rear bearing cause this problem? Looking for some help. Thanks Rob Broehl ------- Date: Wed, 05 Nov 2003 15:21:17 +0000 From: "jo barden" Subject: Re: Help with AA/Craftsman Lathe If the face plate is wobbling could it be that the plate is out of true? if possible fit another face plte/chuck and check , I would have thought that the rear bearing if it is set right should have minimal effect unless it is badly worn, I would suggest using a test bar if possible, assuming the shaft has a morse taper, this should reveal all. Jo ------- Date: Wed, 05 Nov 2003 10:50:18 -0600 From: Jon Elson Subject: Re: Help with AA/Craftsman Lathe If the wobble is very slight, less than .010" at the edge, just face the faceplate. That is common practice when swapping and spindle-mounted item to a different lathe. If the wobble is greater than .010" or so at the edge, then the spindle IS bent. This is very common on AA products lathes, sold as model 109.xxxxx by Craftsman. Do you have anything else that mounts to the spindle, like a chuck? Does it also wobble? Jon ------- Date: Wed, 5 Nov 2003 09:35:11 -0800 From: "Bob May" Subject: Re: Help with AA/Craftsman Lathe What happens when the chuck is put in place? Check with some drill rod and it should be within a few thou. with a 3 jaw chuck for centering at the best point. Faceplates are often off of even by a fair bit as they aren't generally machined to the spindle itself. If you feel the need, find the high side of the faceplate and flip it over on the chuck and adjust the faceplate and the mounting piece to the chuck so that the error is the same and machine the mounting stop surface with a little skim to get it square. If you do a good job, you should be able to get it to mount to a thousandth or so for wobble. Bob May http://nav.to/bobmay ------- Date: Wed, 5 Nov 2003 21:20:44 -0600 From: "jerdal" Subject: Re: Help with AA/Craftsman Lathe Regrettably, the spindles of the AA lathes often ARE bent. They are very thin and bend easily. And the chucks which were supplied with the lathes stuck out a long way, making the chance of bending better by the leverage. That said, the faceplate COULD be out of true. The back bearing however would have to be noticeably loose to be a problem. Spindles are available from Earl Bower. http://www.bowermachineandtool.com Jerrold ------- Date: Wed, 5 Nov 2003 22:53:38 -0500 From: "Bill Hardin" Subject: RE: Help with AA/Craftsman Lathe And I stock Earl's spindles for sale at the same price, same day shipment. I did not find that my spindle was bent until I purchased a very accurate 3-jaw chuck. I had put an indicator on the spindle and thought it was OK. Anxious to test this "super accurate" chuck, I set up and found a .010" instead of 0.0004". Spindle. If all goes well, I will have added a link to Earl Bower's website to my home page by this time tomorrow. Bill Hardin www.homeshopsupply.com Craftsman 109 Lathe Support ------- Date: Thu, 06 Nov 2003 20:58:55 -0500 From: Guy Cadrin Subject: Couple of problems with a Craftsman lathe, with some solutions I joined the discussion group a couple weeks ago. However; I was reading the discussions on the web site. I want to share my experience and problems with the atlas/Craftsman lathe. I bought my lathe in 1990. (craftman 101.28990 12 in cabinet mounted). The lathe was in mint condition. The previous user almost never used it. Her widow told me that he bought the machine and became ill shortly after. After his death, the lathe accumulated dust for many years until she decided to get rid of it. It came with most of the accessories (chucks, backplate, steady rest and follower rest)in the original boxes, including a taper attachment for a 10 in Atlas, modified to fit a 1/2 in thick bed. I also got the milling attachment. The lathe served me well until 1997 when it was damaged by a water pipe that burst above it while I was away. I dismantled the whole machine and got the bed surface ground in order to remove rust damage. The machine came back together in a almost new condition, but my problems started: get everything re-aligned. I had to re-align the headstock, a big challenge, when you have no reference manual for machine tool reconditioning. I had a very minor play between the flat bed ways. I put a shim between the headstock casting and the bed in order to limit the motion at the chuck end of the headstock. At the end of the bed, I drilled and tapped a 1/4 in 20 hole on each side. Those 2 screws allowed me to fine tune the alignment of the headstock. I finished off with less than .0001 in per in as error in parallellism, quite satisfactory for a hobby lathe. After dismantling the lathe, I always experienced tailstock alignment problems; I could not rely on the alignment. I spent many hours trying to align it until I discovered last winter that the tailstock spindle was moving as much as 0.002 in when tightening it down. At that point I was not able to remove the tailstock because of the tight location of the lathe. (The tailstock couldn't clear the end of the bed as the bed was too close to the wall.) I moved to Gatineau, in July. In Sept, I dismantled the tailstock for a full inspection. With marking blue, I discovered that the contact between the upper and lower headstock casting was almost null. I scraped the top face of the lower casting to get it flat (using a small cast iron surface plate as reference). As second step, I used the lower casting as reference surface in order to get a good surface match between the two castings. As a consequence, I had to put a 0.001 shim in order to re-align in the vertical plane the tailstock and headstock. My problem has completely disappeared. I will be able to see the difference when I install the lathe permanently. (I still have to re-arrange my workshop.) When I see in the old publicity "tailstock is handfitted to bedways", I say "my eye". Last June, I removed the saddle for inspection. (I usually remove it once a year for clean up) I discovered that the casting had warped. (about 0.01 in) I needed to get the saddle flat ways surface ground as it would be too much of a scraping job to do. It turned out really good. I took the same opportunity to drill the tool room taper attachment holes at the rear of the saddle. I was then able to find the tool room taper attachment on ebay last month. I equipped my machine with 3C collets. why? They are much easier to find. South bend collet closers fit perfectly on the spindle. The draw bar: don't invest on that item if you are able to cut inside threads. it is easy to manufacture. The collet closer is also easy to manufacture as long as you can find tool steel and can harden metal. I have a problem of bed torsion when I apply pressure on the headstock. I suspect a lack of stiffness of the transverse metal holding bar where the bed is clamped to the base. (Dial indicator measurements proved that the problem is around the mounting bolts.) I hope some will take advantage of my problems. If any have recommendations on modifications to do to the cabinet in order to increase the rigidity, please let me know. I will start to work on this in January. Guy Cadrin Gatineau, QC Canada ------- Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2003 22:36:00 -0600 From: "jerdal" Subject: Re: Couple of problems with a Craftsman lathe, with some solutions > I equipped my machine with 3C collets. why? Hah, another convert......I agree with all of it. I would add that you don't HAVE to harden the closer, unless you do a lot of collet work. Mine is not hardened, but still works fine. When you make a closer, put a mark on it so you can put it in again in same position as when machined. It will be extremely accurate that way. Jerrold ------- Date: Fri, 07 Nov 2003 00:18:19 -0600 From: Jon Elson Subject: Re: Couple of problems with a Craftsman lathe, with some solutions Guy Cadrin wrote: >I needed to get the saddle flat ways surface ground as it would be too much >of a scraping job to do. It turned out really good. This stuff is fairly soft cast Iron. With proper scraping tools, it should be possible to scrape it in in one weekend, unless it was MASSIVELY warped. If it warped that much, you;d need to rescrape the crossslide ways too. >I have a problem of bed torsion when I apply pressure on the headstock. I >suspect a lack of stiffness of the transverse metal holding bar where the >bed is clamped to the base. (dial indicator measurements proved that the >problem is around the mounting bolts. Yes, this is a weak point on the Atlas design. On the machines with the countershaft behind the bed, there is a bolt on later machines that transfers the belt load between the countershaft bracket and the headstock. When you adjust the bolt just right, it almost perfectly balances the belt tension, and the bed does not deflect much at all. I wonder if there is a way to apply similar techniques to the underdrive model. It would take a vertical bolt that runs between the countershaft and the bottom of the headstock. You don't want the reaction to the belt tension to return through the bed. You want a direct link between the two ends of the belt to carry as much of that load as possible. Jon ------- Date: Sat, 08 Nov 2003 16:28:43 -0600 From: Jon Elson Subject: Re: Re: Couple of problems with a Craftsman lathe, with some solutions One of the tricks I learned from Machine Tool Reconditioning is to put a round parallel (I use hardened and ground shafting of known straightness) in the concave part of the dovetail to check the alignment between the spindle and the cross slide, to make sure the cross slide will travel precisely at right angles to the spindle. I used this to set the alignment when I cast Moglice on the bottom of the carriage of my Sheldon. It worked like a CHARM! Jon ------- Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2003 18:14:02 -0800 (PST) From: Michael Bush Subject: Rebuilding a 12" Craftsman. I was looking for a lathe a while back and passed on what looked like a fairly decent 12" quick change Craftsman. The lead screw was worn to a V thread near the headstock and the bed was worn to the point of having a groove worn on the outside. What does it cost to have the bed surface ground and can your average machine shop do it? What is the cost of replacing a lead screw, half nuts, and related items cost? How much work is that? Also, how expensive is it to put new headstock bearings in? TIA. Michael ------- Date: Fri, 07 Nov 2003 03:10:16 -0000 From: "carbure2003" Subject: Re: Rebuilding a 12" Craftsman. Re-grinding a atlas lathe bed is relatively easy, as long as you find a machine shop that has a large surface grinder. Plan for at least 5 hours' work. In 1997, it cost me $ 600 Can to get it done. I heard somebody that got a Logan bed reground in Montreal for $300 Can. According to my 1997 Clausing price list, a lead screw was between $212.00 to $250 depending on the model. Those show up once in a while on ebay. (less than $100.00) Split Nuts were about $25.00 US new in 1997. Replacing both, lead screw and split nuts for the first time would take about 3 hour work. (I could do it now in less than 1 hour as I know exactly how everything is setup on the apron). Removal of the lead screw on a Quick change lathe is a matter of removing 2 allen cap screws on the lead screw bearing. Depending on the type of job you want to do, it is not necessarly important to change the lead screw unless you want to cut precision thread. My lead screw has got a lot of wear caused by sand dust coming out of a casting I machined. I bought a new lead screw but uses it only when I really require accurate thread cutting capabilities. In that case, ensure you have a set of split nut used exclusively for that lead screw. Bearings are Timken bearings and can be found in many local bearing shops. ------- Date: Sat, 08 Nov 2003 16:39:02 -0600 From: Jon Elson Subject: Re: Re: Digest Number 1690 >jon my sheldon has a quick change tool post and i have investigated every >possible place where it can be loose and i have yet to fix the darn thing. >but i have not given up yet lol Well, of course, my Sheldon R15-6 is a different class of machine, but there HAS to be something wrong with it. It isn't SUPPOSED to chatter like that! I do have some experience with fixing chatter on lathes. I had a badly beat 10" Atlas years ago, and there were about 6 places it was loose. I got a Phase-II piston-type QC, and that helped. Then, one day, I noticed the oil film next to the BACK of the saddle was pulsating when I had trouble. I lifted up on the back of the carriage, and sure enough, the gibs that are supposed to keep the carriage from lifting off the ways was massively screwed up. (On the Atlas, there are laminated shims for adjusting this clearance, and if you are careless, the screws can pinch the shim and turn it into an accordion. The previous owner certainly did a good job of that.) High infeed forces on machines with light carriages can cause the back of the carriage to lift. So, check the tightness of these gibs, however they are set up on your Sheldon. there are tricks of how you position the compound slide that can affect the flex in the machine. So, try it at different compound settings. Before I started all these improvements, it was ABSOLUTELY impossible to part off anything, even PLASTIC, on that Atlas! After I was done, I could part mild steel with impunity, and even some tough aluminum deep-parting off work without great fear. (At least for me, aluminum seems to be more difficult to part off than mild steel. It goes fine for a while, then binds up suddenly.) The final fix was to replace the badly worn babbit bearing headstock with a roller bearing headstock. If the spindle is free to lift up in reaction to cutting forces, everything else doesn't matter a whole lot. Jon ------- Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2003 11:01:39 -0500 (EST) From: x xx Subject: Re: Re: Tail stock height glenco2x~xxjuno.com wrote: >>> I just aligned the tail stock with the head stock using a center in each one and found out that the tail stock is slightly lower, maybe 10 thou. any solutions to this problem. Glen 10" atlas <<< Shims 'tween the tailstock base and the stock itself. Depending on how you make the shims you might or might not be able to use tail stock setover thereafter, but the loss of that facility doesn't seem to be a serious detriment. Sam ------- Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2003 12:10:46 EST From: jmartin957x~xxaol.com Subject: Re: Re: Tail stock height As the bed wears, the parts supporting the carriage and the tailstock will become lower. So will the bottom of the carriage and tailstock. The headstock and the bed area supporting it get no wear, so they don't change. Eventually, you may have to regrind or scrape the bed and the other parts. Quick fix, though, is to add a shim between the lower and upper tailstock castings. John Martin ------- Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2003 17:08:35 EST From: jmartin957x~xxaol.com Subject: Re: Re: Tail stock height > If this is the case (likely), wouldn't shimming the tailstock make it > high if the tailstock is positioned to the right where there would be > less (or no) wear to the bed ways. Glen measured with a center in the > headstock and tailstock, so the tailstock was obviously very close to > the headstock -- the place where most bed wear would be likely. -Bruno While wear to the bed from carriage movement is typically greatest near the headstock, the headstock and tailstock on the Atlas lathes with which I am familiar don't wear on the same part of the bed. Carriage wear is on the outer part of the ways, tailstock wear is on the inner part. If he doesn't typically use the tailstock right next to the headstock, but measured the .010" low number at that point, it's probably not the bed but the tailstock base - in which case the shimming will help. And, if it's a combination of way wear and tailstock wear, shimming it to get it a few thousandths high at one end and a few low at the other may be the best compromise. Grinding or scraping the bed may be the only totally accurate method, but it depends on what accuracy he needs and what he is willing to pay or labor for it. Might also help to know exactly how he measured the difference. Clocking the tailstock ram with a dti on the lathe spindle should give the best reading. John Martin ------- Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2003 23:19:59 -0600 From: Jon Elson Subject: Re: Re: Tail stock height azbruno wrote: >Yes, the carriage does wear the outer side of the ways, so I stand >corrected. Now I am wondering how easily a bit of swarf could get >under the tailstock to affect it's alignment reading. Very easily! The Atlas machines generally don't have way wipers on the tailstock. Pull the tailstock and examine the bottom for gouges and burrs. You can carefully remove any burrs with a chisel or India stone. If using the chisel, an extremely fine touch is needed to avoid making new gouges and burrs that are even worse. Applying a chisel upside down allows finer control of how the edge cuts. Of course, if you have a scraping tool, that is far preferable. >Also, if the bottom of the tailstock is uneven, could the alignment >results then change depending on how far out the ram is? Just wondering. Absolutely! If the tailstock is canted at all, the extension of the ram will be on an incline. You should use the carriage to ride a dial indicator across the top of the extended ram to detect tilt. Of course, if the tailstock casting is worn, the ram can be raised and lowered at the front end. Then, a new keying screw is fashioned to allow the ram to be held up against the top of the bore. Many old Atlas machines can benefit from this trick. Jon ------- Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 14:40:48 -0600 (CST) From: dswrx~xxwebtv.net Subject: Re: Newbie with questions [NOTE TO FILE: All these questions have been answered over and over and... and can easily be found in the archives or in the files on this site. Leo and JTS kindly provided an excellent set of answers. See the archives or files here for more options.] "I've just bought a craftsman 6" lathe 101.07301 ." I have the same lathe, bought new in 1955. "...and the motor is now a half HP 1750 RPM dayton instead of the original." This lathe did not come with a motor (at least in 1955) Sears recommended a 1/3 h.p, 1750 rpm., so you are OK in that department. "... anything specific I need to check out or do to make sure things are properly aligned and lubricated before turning it on?" Make sure that the spindle bearings have lube in them. (10w, non-detergent) Oil the spindle thrust bearing (bearing on left side of spindle step pulley. Oil the gear train, and start off with the shift in neutral, so you won't have to worry about carriage, bed travel right now. Remove the oil screw in the spindle step pulley and the oil screw in the back gear cluster and oil them. "any suggestions on what kind of abrasive and/or solvent to use in order to remove surface rust and oily gunk without damaging critical surfaces?" My suggestions would be to use a rust remover solvent and a pad, such as "Scotchbrite". Clean carefully, just remove the rust... don't scratch the metal. "...- I was planning to bolt this lathe to a home built table with folding legs and wheels so I can move it out of the way when not in use. But then I found some tech tips on the Atlas site that really emphasize the importance of leveling the bed." The Bed Does Not Have To Be Level!!! (i know this will seen as heresy) The bed "levelling" routine is kind of misleading. The recommendation to "level" the lathe is just an easy way to make the bed rails co-planar and not twisted along their lengths. (the bed could be vertical, upside down, at a 45 degree angle, and it would not matter) Permanent and static mounting would be best, but you could mount it on a rolling table. Get the table reasonably level and then... Level the lathe bed ways so that your level (a precision level) indicates the same reading when tested on each way and the same reading when tested across the ways near the headstock and on the tail-end of the ways. (these readings, taken when the lathe is bolted to the table) Then, If your table top is very stiff (rigid), the lathe ways will be close to co-planar where ever you use it. The lathe has to "level" with itself, not the table, world, etc. Hope this is enought to get you started, Leo (pearland, tx) ------- Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 20:51:55 GMT From: jts4545x~xxnetzero.net Subject: Re: Newbie with questions Tips: Avoid using abrasives other than steel wool on the bed. Too coarse and you will change critical dimensions of lathe bed contact surfaces. Use a very fine grade of steel wool. Try Hoppe's #9 gun bore solvent, usually available at any gun store. Let it soak on rusted parts for a few hours. Then rub off with clean cloth. Use rubber gloves and lots of ventilation. Smell is quite pervasive. You can also try Kroil to penetrate rust. Kroil is very good for rusted rotating parts also. Check that all gears rotate smoothly and apply Kroil if seized up or binding from rust. They must all turn freely. When turning freely, use SAE 20 oil on rotating spindles and keys, not on gear teeth! Motor oil will suffice. Lubricate lathe bed surfaces with special way lubricant, Mobil "Vactra" brand is the most commonly available brand. Viscosity does not matter on a small lathe, but thicker is better. Use "cling type" outer gear or spur gear lubricant in a spray can on all gear teeth. Many private brands available from industrial supply houses and catalogs. Usually a form of molybdenum disulfide grease. If turning workpieces between centers, use center lubricant, "CIMCOOL Centersaver Waterproof Grease" is the industry standard. Available from J&L Tool catalog and local industrial suppliers. Ordinary grease simply will not do for this application. It will quickly fail under rotating pressures and let your centers get burned. The motor can be adapted with a bushing to match belt pulley in some cases. If not, get a 1/3 HP motor. Try to use a rigid base. An amazing amount of vibration is produced by a lathe when running. Folding legs will have to be be very heavily braced to to take such vibrations. These things should get you off to a good start. Broken handwheel should be replaced with one from Clausing Service Center. You can get handwheels from Reid Tool Supply catalog also. Think twice about using this for wood parts. Sawdust is difficult to remove from moving parts. ------- Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2003 15:21:20 -0500 From: "mertbaker" Subject: Re: how reduce backlash in lead screw? > Thanks to help from folks on this board I now have my new > Atlas/Craftsman 6 x 18 cleaned up, spinning and cutting. I notice > there's a fair amount of play on the cross thread and compound, but I > don't have a dial indicator yet to measure exactly how much. Are > there adjustments that can be made to reduce the backlash or is this > just a question of age and wear that I have to live with? This is one of the things that old 618s have. Solution is a new nut from Clausing at 30 bux or so, or a tube of loctite thread restorer from the auto parts store, which is what I used. The leadscrew & halfnuts on this lathe were OK. It was the cross slide nut that was nearly gone. The nut is brass, and the screw, steel, but there was quite a bit of wear on the screw, also. Works fine now, no binding at either end. Mert ------- Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2003 22:18:26 -0000 From: "bkfan2001" Subject: Re: how reduce backlash in lead screw? Hi Mert, I had not heard of someone using this repair before and it really irks me that I didn't think of it before. I have been in the auto parts business for several years and have also done my fair share of wrench turning and have used the Loctite thread repair system more times than I care to think about ( I was always kinda big & strong and just had to get those pesky bolts just as tight as I could, esp in aluminum) and it really works. Cast iron, aluminum, etc,etc, just about everything. Had no problems with having to redo repair either, seemed to stay permanent. Thanks for the tip. BK ------- Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2003 16:33:18 -0600 From: xlch58x~xxswbell.net Subject: Re: how reduce backlash in lead screw? One thing to keep in mind is that the screw is also worn, and typically near the headstock. This means that if you set it up for a good fit at the headtstock, the threads will bind at the tailstock. You may want to make/buy a new screw first. Another ancient dodge was to split the nut lengthwise and spread it with braze, solder or adjusting screws. Charles ------- Date: Sat, 03 Jan 2004 13:54:13 -0000 From: "johnlegowik" Subject: Replacement Drill Press Column I have an older Craftsman Drill press. Does anyone know of a way to get a replacement column with the rack and pinion arangement or a way to retrofit the column with a rack and pinion table...Thanks again. John Legowik ------- Date: Sat, 3 Jan 2004 08:15:57 -0600 (CST) From: dswrx~xxwebtv.net Subject: Re: Replacement Drill Press Column I have one of those older Craftsman drill press. The table (with a palmgren rotary table mounted) was a major problem when it came to moving the table up or down the column.I solved this problem, using the top mast (turnbuckle) used on three point hitches of tractors. You can get these from farm or tractors stores. Adjusting range is about 5". Only drawback is you have to reach below the table to adjust the height of the table, but it beats the "h" out of man-handling the table. Leo (pearland, tx) ------- Date: Sat, 3 Jan 2004 10:44:59 -0600 From: "TONY CLARK" Subject: Re: Drill Press Table adjusting Another solution to helping offset the weight of drill press or hydraulic press tables is with one (or more) of those deck lid struts that car makers love to use. They can be found with really long strokes and they are better than a spring since their spring force action is a lot less progressive than a compression spring... a couple of bucks at the salvage yard. Tony in Texas ------- Date: Sat, 3 Jan 2004 23:24:59 -0800 From: "Spurrs" Subject: Bending Zamac This may cause a little controversy. We all know that Zamac or Mazac die castings are brittle. Usually to our cost. Should you have a casting that is bent, not broken, it is possible to bend it back without breaking it. You need time and/or heat. One characteristic of Zamac is its poor creep resistance. Place a load on it so that it distorts and it quickly creeps to the distorted shape. Try to bend it back too quickly, it breaks. If you need to straighthen a casting, try clamping it to the position you require without causing it to set. Warm gently using a blowtorch, electric paint stripper or in the oven, When cool, the casting will have moved to the shape it was clamped to. I did this with a bent leadscrew reversing clutch yoke without problem. Nigel Spurr ------- Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2004 01:18:58 EST From: WaynesTrnsx~xxaol.com Subject: Re: Bending Zamac As a restorer and repairer of vintage toy trains I have straightened many zamac castings over the years. If you are going to use a high heat source such as a propane torch ALWAYS wear safety glasses. I have had castings explode from what I presume was moisture in an air pocket create steam. Regards, Wayne ------- Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 20:20:26 +0000 (GMT) From: John Bladen Subject: Timken Removal & Fitting I have stripped down the Atlas 10F and had a lot of difficulty removing the Headstock spindle. It proved to be an extremely tight fitting spindle gear and an even tighter fitting inner of the Timken Gear at the opposite end to the chuck. Having ensured that there are no burrs on the key way I tried to get the bearing on but it was simply impossible. The spindle is polished nice and shiny and I have tried fitting with plenty of oil on the surface and fairly dry. I put the bearing in the oven and when warm it slipped on the spindle quite easily but I did not get it fully home and moving it by tightening it using the threaded collar was proving to be very difficult. Because at some stage in the future I will have to replace a belt I decided to remove the spindle again and investigate further. This took an excessive amount of force to free it and I was getting worried about the casting but in the end it shifted. Is this common, because the book says that replacing the spindle should be possible with little more force than the palm of your hand? Can anyone tell me if there is a tip for the removal of the bearing. I can always warm it up to get it back on but the amount of force to remove it seems to against the guidance in the book and excessive. The inner bearing with the rollers is marked as 14125. Is this the correct bearing? John Bladen Milton Keynes UK ------- Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 15:58:16 EST From: LouD31M066x~xxaol.com Subject: Re: Timken Removal & Fitting Is inner bearing sticking on shaft or outer bearing sticking in headstock casting? Are you using a press and adapter to install bearing on shaft? Are you using a disc (or disk) and threaded rod to draw bearing into (or out of) the headstock? Is there evidence of a too tight fit? If more force is required to install than remove something is causing it. If you have large micrometer check size of old and new and diameter of spindle at several points. You can always remove enough metal to make a slip fit, BUT, that is the least likely cause. Prior string gave correct bearing numbers a month or so ago as Big Cone 16150 Big Cup 16284B Small Cone 14125A Small Cup 14276B I have not verified, but, no one corrected it on group so if I have copied correct it should be right for both 10 and 12 inch Timken Tapered Roller Bearings. Others may make equivalent. Most likely cause is dirt or crud in casting hole and a burr on shaft. If some force is required to install (and it is ) make sure it is not excessive. Hammer not good tool to use. Bearing Cone and Cup must be installed squarely on shaft and in headstock...some sort of press and adapters does job best. Heat is an extreme measure just like hammer. Can do more harm than good if your luck is not running good at time. Louis ------- Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 22:43:50 -0800 From: "Spurrs" Subject: Re: Timken Removal & Fitting I recently removed the spindle from my 10". The inner bearing race at the opposite end from the chuck slid off the spindle OK. The bull gear casting was a little more stubborn, a little warmth (not too hot to touch) from a paint stripping gun was enough to make it reasonable. The bearing inner race really should not be tight as you will have major problems adjusting the spindle nut preload. If too loose, the result will be chatter. I suggest that the suffering to make the fit right will be well worth the effort. If you check the diameter of the bearing race, check it in a number of places. It should be perfectly round but you never know! I am thinking of putting a slug of lead under each grubscrew to stop shaft marking in the future. The spindle nut grubscrew has one, but why not the others! Looks like You and I are working on similar timescale to complete repairs/restoration. Best regards Nigel Spurr Solihull UK ------- Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 23:55:39 -0600 From: Jon Elson Subject: Re: Timken Removal & Fitting The biggest problem with removing both inner and outer races is that grit gets packed under the lip of the race and is then driven into the seating surface. This ends up scoring the bearing a little, and the seating surface very badly. It is much easier if you use a pointed tool to remove as much grit from under the lip of the race before trying to drive it off/out. I used a series of tools and solvents to get as much stuff out of there as possible, and it was then much easier to drive them off. Getting a good bearing off for reuse is a tricky business. What you should have done, assuming you have access to a working lathe, is to make driving collars and plugs and use a gear puller to move the bearings. I made a set of these before tearing down a headstock, and was VERY glad I did, as my bearings were REALLY tight, too. For reinstalling, I heated the first bearing inner race, and cooled the spindle in the freezer. This made it slip on REAL easy. I froze the outer races and they went in real well, too. But the rear bearing (the last to go in) was a bit trickier. I used the gear puller to pull it in, and it was not too bad. Jon ------- Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2004 08:54:20 +0000 (GMT) From: John Bladen Subject: Re: Timken Removal & Fitting Thanks all for the advice on this. I spent some time trying to measure the inside of the bearing and suspect that it is not true. It was very useful to have the input and know that it has to be a tight fit but not as tight as it currently is. I will also try and fabricate something to press and draw the bearing in future. John ------- Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2004 14:08:38 -0500 From: David Beierl Subject: Re: Bed fixing and avoiding twist 1/14/2004, Spurrs wrote: >I suppose Atlas insist on level as it is obvious to all- provided that >you have a very sensitive level available. Atlas says "WHAT IS A PROPERLY LEVELED LATHE? On an accurately leveled lathe the bed ways are parallel or level with each other both lengthwise and crosswise." Sears says (in a 1944 bulletin) "...By this is meant the bed ways must be parallel or level with themselves and not necessarily 'level with the world.' However the easiest method of obtaining a level lathe is by using a machinist's spirit level thus making..." Both say that .001 total twist is unacceptable. Atlas goes into more gory detail than Sears about how it will ruin the lathe as well as the work. >2. Placing a long bar/tube on the bed so that it is vertical and >measuring a plumb line position at eact end of the bed. This is the same as using a level -- but to meet the sensitivity spec. (about 80 arc-seconds/division from the Sears bulletin; about 20 seconds from the Atlas bulletin, assuming an 8-inch level and 36" between lathe mounts) you'll need a vertical member either 22 feet or 175 feet long. A six-foot vertical will give you .1 inch deflection for about 300 arc-seconds, or .018/foot -- far less than you need. Twenty feet might be marginally possible, but given the narrow and flexible base probably not without going to large effort or expense or both for lightening. 175 feet is right out. Note: Making the assumptions that a) if .001 is completely unacceptable, then .0005 is tolerable and .00025 preferred; b) the measurement is taken over a six-inch distance from front way to back way; c) ten tenths (one thou) per division will be readable enough to let you achieve 2.5 tenths; then the minimum sensitivity would be two thou per foot or 35 seconds. That's halfway between the Atlas and Sears recommendations; however the level pictured on both is a precision machinist's level -- Sears specifically recommended the Starrett model 96. Starrett doesn't make the 96 any more, but their model 98 claims 80-90 second sensitivity for the 6-in and larger sizes. This leads me to believe that the Atlas spec is likely a typo. However if you're not allergic to Chinese product, the ten-second levels are pretty cheap on sale and will be easy to read. I got a 20-second Czech level from Victor that was extremely nice. It was supposed to be 10-second so I sent it back; now I'm sorry. My 10-second Chinese one works fine once I removed the cover over the vial, but it's U G L Y. I should make a new cover (the original has too much silk- screening and not enough viewing window, maybe I can clean it off). >What I am considering doing is bolting down the headstock end solidly, >but shimmed to leave a gap between the tailstock end and the stand. Then, >support on a knife edge the tailstock end of the bed. The bed cannot be >twisted by this form of location. Then measure the gap and fit shims >between the tailstock end mountings and the stand. The fixing bolts, I >intend to leave "nipped up" Not tightened I think an Atlas lathe would wind itself up like a corkscrew if it weren't firmly bolted down. Atlas specifies a *minimum* of 1-5/8" hardwood bench cleated or well doweled together, on 4" square legs bolted to the floor. david (neither guru nor expert, caveat emptor) David Beierl -- Providence RI USA Atlas 618 6"/3/index.html" lathe ca. 1941 ------- Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2004 14:12:40 -0800 (PST) From: Don Smith Subject: Repairing a Broken Gearcase From time to time I see posts from people looking for a gearcase for their lathe after the one they have has broken. This is the gearcase that houses the gears that drive the carriage along the bed. From what I understand, it is common for the gearcase to break. Anyway, not long ago the gearcase on my 10" Atlas broke into 4 pieces. After calling Jolene at Clausing, and finding out that the gearcase was about 64.00 without the shaft and gears, and 120.00 with shaft and gears, I decided to try and fix it myself. I "glued the pieces back together with J B Weld, then I built up the gearcase with J B Weld every that I could to make it as strong as possible, but not so much that it would interfere with the re-installation of the gearcase. So far it has been holding up very well and only cost me about 4 bucks for the J B Weld. Has anyone else repaired a broken gearcase with J B Weld? If so, how did it hold up over a period of time? Don ------- Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2004 06:06:32 -0000 From: "mtrsickleman47" Subject: Re: where to get bed ways reground / is it worth doing? I had the bed ground on my 12x24 Atlas last winter. It cost me $75. You need to call around to the larger machine shops in your area and see if they have a surface grinder that will handle something the length of your bed (in my case 42 inches).If they don't, ask them who they go to to get their large grinding done because they send it out to somebody, find out who. They should flip the bed upside down and grind the surface that the feet bolt on first then right side up and do the top and front and rear edges. The center of the bed should be supported during grinding to prevent sag of the bed on the large magnetic table. I think it was money well spent and no lathe restoration is complete without it being done. Good Luck! Zort ------- Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2004 10:14:41 -0000 From: "Ernest Lear" Subject: Re: where to get bed ways reground / is it worth doing? Yes I had my lathe bed reground but the small company that did the job was in Bristol UK. Walk in with it and a few hours later call back and pick it up. Made sure that it was being done, as to my requirements, before I left to get a coffee and for then to finish it off. Cost Ł60. It made and was in every way a big improvement to this lathe. As for hand scraping (or flaking as you put it) you need a lot of practice on something else and be very sure that you can get the results needed to do a lathe bed. Time is also a facture as it could take you a long time to get the finishes needed. You will also need a very large perfect surface table and correct angle plates to check the edges for square as well as being flat. Also the parallels sides got to be better than .001" over the length of the bed. Not easy by just hand scraping. So have a look around your local small engineering shops to see what they can offer in the way of doing the work or pointing you to the right place to get it done. If you don't ask you don't get. Best of luck. Ernest ------- Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2004 07:41:56 -0800 From: Mark Subject: Way grinding - or flycutting I was fortunate enough to benefit from a friend's shop and expertise (and generosity) - used his big mill to flycut the surfaceS (emphasis mine) of my 6x24 bed and slide and compound, all of which were probably originally machined when the castings were still "green". It looked to us like Atlas had flycut, rather than ground, the unit originally. I posted a rather lengthy story to the group at the time, which outlines some of the cautions to be taken. [SNIP -- SEE MARK'S MSG 13 OCT 2001 ABOVE] Have to do the top AND bottom of the ways, especially the back.... Took more than 60 dollars (or quid) worth of time, so you guys got a deal if the shop did the whole job mark ------- Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2004 23:11:44 EST From: LouD31M066x~xxaol.com Subject: Re: where to get bed ways reground / is it worth doing? After you get the relatively soft cast iron ways reground to near perfection (far better than new) think about, way oil, way wipers and cleanup after each use and wipe down and reoil prior to use...the wear process can be delayed if not avoided. Louis ------- Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2004 23:27:26 -0000 From: "throwawaytip" Subject: Re: Where to get bed ways reground - hand scraping as an option I wouldn't give up on hand scraping as a method of truing up a lathe bed if the services of a suitable machine shop wasn't readily available or you are on a tight budget. I scraped the bed on my 10" Atlas (54" bed length) to get rid of wear (.0015" at the chuck end and a similar amount out of straight on the front shear). It took 10 passes over the bed to correct the wear, at about 30 minutes per pass including bluing and checking with a surface plate and 4 foot straightedge (had to borrow the straightedge). This means that I was removing an average of .0001" per pass - not a heck of a lot in hindsight. The top of the bed is relatively easy to work on but the sides are a bit more difficult to scrape due to their small area. I finished up by bedding the underside of the saddle to the newly flattened bed. Big increase in parallel turning accuracy and a major improvement in rigidity due to better saddle to bed contact. I did have a little experience in hand scraping before I started but this was the largest item I had tried. The bed material is quite soft grey iron and scraped well with plain carbon steel scrapers. Regards ------- Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2004 20:23:02 -0800 (PST) From: Eric Johnson Subject: Need a Compound Rest for an atlas 6" Does anyone know where i could get a compound rest for an atlas 6" lathe? I thought about having it welded and then resurfaced but not sure how well that would work out. If anyone has any ideas let me know. Mine broke right in the T part where it tightens against the tool holder. Thanks Eric ------- Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2004 23:45:38 EST From: LouD31M066x~xxaol.com Subject: Re: Need a Compound Rest for an atlas 6" Ebay usually has someone parting out a machine and maybe reasonable although I highly recommend pricing with Clausing Atlas prior to any hasty moves. Parts may or may not be available from Clausing Atlas (574) 533-0371. Several used machinery dealers from time to time have parts and of course some group members have bone piles in which they may have something useful. Repair is an option if you have skills and detemination although welding a casting with a machined surface will probably distort due to heating and unless done right may not have strength required. Post welding remachining/grinding can restore accurate surfaces. I would think the best course is to find a good used part as repair will involve considerable effort and may not be anywhere near as good as new. ------- Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2004 02:10:16 EST From: n8as1x~xxaol.com Subject: Re: Need a Compound Rest for an atlas 6" Eric ...the t slot bearing surfaces for the tool post can be machined off,& replaced w/ flat bar stock , retained w/ flat head socket screws ( not CSSS )this is a common repair ..........would think the torn out parts could be brazed as well ......i wud be VERY cautious abt welding ....pre heat ,nickle rod,peening & slow cool down by someone who has done a bunch!!! (or u will be welding up the new crack right next to ur weld a new one was VERY pricy , when i hung the toolpost 1/2 off trying to extend the reach 45 yrs ago ,& tore out some pieces ....am sure much worse today the t slot on my 110 yr old 14 x 44 has been longtime repaired w/ barstock & slotted flat head screws.....& withstands all....... best wishes docn8as ------- Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2004 04:22:48 -0500 From: "Cindy & Wayne" Subject: Re: Need a Compound Rest for an atlas 6" Eric, I have made repair with brazing on cast pieces like the compound rest, with long-lasting positive results. Wayne Burner ------- Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2004 23:26:30 EST From: catboat15x~xxaol.com Subject: Re: Laser leveling Hi a few weeks ago someone on this list or related lathe list sugested that a laser level laid across the bed of a lathe could be used to level if you did not have access to a precision level. I did a bit of experiment today and it seems the idea has merit. I took an inexpensive laser level from Harbor Frieght that I use to "shoot elevations" on my back yard track and laid it across the ways of my 12 X 36. The orginal was to shoot to a horizontal line on the target wall, but realizing that drawing a really accurate horizontal line was again adding an unknown to the equation. So laid the laser across the ways and aimed at a single spot about 20 feet away. Moved to the tail stock end of the bed and again laid the laser across the bed aimed at the same spot. Found on a rough estimate (without really cleaning off the portions of the bed except for a wipe with a shop towel) that the difference in the height of the red dot was about 3 or 4 inches although the bed measures level by a cheap bubble level. I calculated with a 20 foot base measurement (aprox as the lathe is set out from the end wall a foot or so.) and estimated six inch wide base the measuring system gives a multiplication factor of about 40:1. In my opinion this would be a cheap way to measure the parallelism of the bed (not level, necessarly) with an inexpensive device readily available (and you can use the laser to hang pictures for your wife also, which most of would not do with an expensive precision level.) Therefore next time I start any major project I will follow the procedure with more careful measurements. I recommend this type of measurement for parallelism of your bed and I have not been wrong for almost 15 minutes now. Whoever suggested it, I want to thank you for thinking outside the box. John Meacham In the high desert of California ------- Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2004 12:36:40 EST From: jmartin957x~xxaol.com Subject: Re: Laser leveling Good idea, but I don't think the laser level will give you anything like the precision you'll want for accurately leveling the lathe bed. Graduations on a standard machinist's bench level are .005" per foot, which would be a tenth of an inch at 20 feet. Would be tough to read with a laser, I think. But, it's not the standard levels which are generally used to level a lathe bed - it's the master precision levels, with graduations of .0005" per foot. Which translates to one hundredth of an inch on the wall at 20 feet. Granted, you don't have to be within one graduation, but that's the kind of accuracy you're looking for. The 3-4" difference on your wall equals a .3" to .4" difference with a two-foot bubble level. If yours couldn't pick that up, it's not much of a level. All that said, I bolted my 618 down without leveling and get accuracy to .001". Sometimes, lucky is better than good! John Martin ------- Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2004 17:12:08 -0000 From: "Harprit Singh Sandhu" Subject: Lathe alignment technique Detailed procedure for aligning a lathe headstock and tailstock. Things to remember: The axis of the bed is the master surface that you cannot modify so we have to fit everything to it. The cross slide needs to be at right angles to the bed. This may not be so, so keep this in mind. The cross side should cut a very very very very slightly concave surface when cutting right. (If the headstock is off you will not be able to do this.) First the headstock. It has to be parallel to the bed. Up and down. For now let us assume this is ok. In and out Left and right along the bed does not matter. Let's assume that the case is hopeless. A 6 inch rod in the chuck is 1/4 inch out of line with a point in the tailstock. First face the end of the bar so you can see where the center is. Next pull the tailstock out 1/4 inch and drill a small center on the rotating center of the bar as close as you can. Next bring a tailstock center up to this. (So things don't flex when we take the cuts.) Now you can cut two 1/4 inch long spots on the bar with the cross slide at the exact same setting. One near the chuck and one near the tailstock. These when measured accurately, will tell you how far the lathe is off. Now we have an idea of what the problem is. (In reality this will not be 1/4 inch but a few thou.) Run a calculation to get at idea of how much has to be taken off somewhere along the headstock base to get things right. Since shim stock is cheap, this is often a good solution. Using shims does not destroy anything and they can be used to effective add material to the casting! Use shims first and then if you get brave you can scrape and file and whatever. So now you can play with the headstock till you get it right. The up and down adjustment is a bit harder, but similar. You will have to shim the tailstock up to drill the center hole at the rotating center. Then follow the same plan. Since the tailstock has to slide back and forth, it cannot be shimmed; so all the shimming needs to be done at the headstock. It is also possible that the tailstock will have to be scraped and then the headstock brought to its centerline. Unfortunately that's the way it is. Test If you can put a small say one inch long rod in the headstock and ream a 1/4 inch hole in it. Remove it and the chuck and using a drill and reamer in the headstock in another chuck ream a 1/4 inch hole in a 1/2 inch rod held in the tailstock you have a test rig. Put the first chuck back on the headstock. You now have two reamed holes that should be perfectly in line. A ground rod with clean ends should be able to be moved simultaneously in both holes by hand with no or minimal resistance. This is your goal. Right? Commercially they used very accurately made plates held in the Morse tapers to check alignment. I don't know what they do now but CNC machines have created a brave new world! Thanks/Regards Harprit Singh Sandhu Author of that "Spindles" book. Considered by some to be a treatise on how to use a lathe to do some interesting things. ------- NOTE TO FILE: This next 6" owner had a problem engaging the half nuts. The most common causes and solutions were suggested by members but the problem was unusual and resolved by the owner through close observation. ------- Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2004 21:28:57 -0000 From: "Ray Feldman" Subject: Now I can engage the lead screw! Since there was so much interest in my problem engaging the lead screw, and such a tremendous response offering advice, I want to fill in everyone on the final resolution. As I said in one of my earlier messages, the square end of the half nut camshaft had been peened over where it fit in the handle, and it was impossible to remove the cam without destroying it and the handle. It was obvious that someone had done some "modifications" to the half nut cam assembly. With the whole carriage on my bench, I removed the set screw, spring and ball from the bottom of the apron. I could then shine a light in the opening and see that there was no detent at the maximum down position of the handle. I thought that the half nut threads must be camming out of the lead screw threads since there was no detent to hold it place. I then happened to look very closely at the movement of the half nut as I swung the handle through its range of motion. I observed that the half nuts were not in the maximum closed position at the end of the handle's rotation, but rather quite a few degrees up from the end of its travel. In fact, I was opening up the half nuts a bit when I put the handle in its fully down position. This might not have been a problem if the half nuts were pristine, but mine were a bit worn. I decided to use extreme measures. I carefully swung the handle back and forth until I located the absolute maximum closure of the half nuts. I then clamped the handle so it could not move, ran a drill into the detent ball opening and drilled a dimple into the side of the cam. After reassembling the ball, spring and set screw, I could feel a nice firm detent when the half nuts were fully closed. After I reinstalled the carriage and the lead screw bearing, it worked perfectly! I was able to fully engage the lead screw both forward and reverse, with smooth consistent movement of the carriage. Thanks everyone Ray ------- Date: Mon, 01 Mar 2004 20:48:32 -0000 From: "nesenrik" Subject: Shear Pin in 109 lathe? I have a 1940s vintage Craftsman AA 109.20630 lathe. I am a newbie and was planning to use this as a learning tool. My first attempt was to try to round out the end of a shaft on a hexagonal paint mixer. Things went well during the first few passes, then about halfway through a pass there was a loud thump and the part stopped turning. The gears and the motor were still turning, but the drive shaft (head stock spindle, I think) that the chuck was mounted on was not turning. The spindle now rotates freely. Is there a shear pin inside the gear cluster that may have broken? What parts will need to be removed to make this repair? Is it something a novice can fix? Thanks, Rick ------- Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2004 18:12:13 -0500 From: "Bill Hardin" Subject: RE: Shear Pin in 109 lathe? There is no shear pin. If the headstock spindle turns freely without moving the back gear, the only thing that could have broken is the woodruff key. Unusual, but cheap. You can get another at your local Home Depot. Remove the gear on the end of the shaft, remove the collar just inside the headstock, and slide the back gear toward where the pulley was. You will see the slot in the shaft for the woodruff key. Let me know if you have other questions. Bill Hardin www.homeshopsupply.com Craftsman 109 Lathe Support ------- Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2004 22:24:35 -0600 From: "jerdal" Subject: Re: Shear Pin in 109 lathe? There are two pins controlling the back gears. I don't know what you were running in, I presume straight drive. If so, the first pin, which goes thru the headstock into the large planetary gear housing, would be pulled to the "disengaged" position. The other pin is a sliding pin on the back of the planetary housing, with a thumbnut on it. When slid towards the housing periphery it engages and locks the planetary gears, so you then can use direct drive. When slid towards the center, it frees the internal gears. Then the first pin has to be slid to "engaged" when it locks the planetary housing to the headstock, setting the unit in back gear. It slides into a hole in the planetary housing. Sounds like your sliding pin slid out of engagement. Then the spindle is freed and there isn't any force turning it other than bearing friction. Both the planetary spider and the ring gear were un-restrained. The thumbnut is for locking it in either position. You would have to turn the shaft and housing until they line up, slide the pin outwards all the way being sure it engages in the drive notch (which you have to feel, there isn't much to see), and tighten the thumbnut. If the thumbnut is off, and the threaded stem of the pin is not visible, you will have to disassemble, find the pin, and put it back together. Jerrold ------- Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2004 09:46:37 -0500 From: "Bill Hardin" Subject: RE: Shear Pin in 109 lathe? Guys, no matter what happens with the back gear locking pin and plunger, the body of the planetary gear housing is locked to the spindle with the woodruff key. If his spindle moves freely without causing the back shell to turn, it has to have the woodruff key missing. Bill Hardin www.homeshopsupply.com Craftsman 109 Lathe Support ------- Date: Thu, 04 Mar 2004 03:17:04 -0000 From: "nesenrik" Subject: Re: Shear Pin in 109 lathe? Thanks Bill, the planetary gear housing is still locked to the spindle. The drive pulleys are not driving the planetary gear housing, so I'll have to get inside to see why. I'll report my findings after I have a look. Probably this weekend. Rick ------- Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2004 22:25:42 -0500 From: "Bill Hardin" Subject: RE: Re: Shear Pin in 109 lathe? Then Jerrold (and others) are probably right. Locking pin or plunger. Bill Hardin www.homeshopsupply.com Craftsman 109 Lathe Support ------- Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2004 14:46:20 EST From: LouD31M066x~xxaol.com Subject: Re: Re: Shear Pin in 109 lathe? Key Material? What was original lathe key made of. Last Summer I had to replace key on lawnmower. Key was made of a soft alloy (zinc or aluminum). Using common steel woodruff key would have worked, but, the designer/maker had a reason... Louis ------- Date: Mon, 01 Mar 2004 06:23:12 -0000 From: "jim010703" Subject: Craftsman 6x18 Lathe I'm replacing the headstock pulley and the ID of the bushing does not match the shaft OD. The new ID is .787 and the OD of the shaft is .812. The old pulley bushing ID measures .816. Do these need to be sized or did I get the wrong parts? I don't have a choice as the old pulley is shot and I think the fit is a little big. I could try to swap the bushings, but this would not be my first choice. If it needs to be sized what would be the best method? ------- Date: Mon, 01 Mar 2004 20:28:01 -0000 From: "jim010703" Subject: Re: Craftsman 6x18 Lathe > The replacement bushing probably fits several applications. Bushings > are usually meant to be pressed in and bored to size. This can also > be done with an expansion reamer though boring is preferred. > Walnut Charlie Charlie, this makes sense. What would be a good setup for boring? I have a small mill drill available. I believe I can properly set the pulley in the bed. I will need to use some oak blocks. What kind of clearance should I shoot for? I might have to pick up an expansion reamer and do it that way. -------- Date: Tue, 02 Mar 2004 00:41:41 -0000 From: "walnut_charlie" Subject: Re: Craftsman 6x18 Lathe The easiest way would be in the lathe but I'm guessing that your's is apart so a drill mill should work fine. Clamp the pulley down and indicate the inside of the bushing to find the center of it. Then you can use a boring head or a chucking reamer to take it to .001-.002 larger than the journal on the shaft. Make sure the surface on the shaft is OK before you size the bushing. An expansion reamer will work but it can be tricky getting the size correct. If you go the expansion reamer route, take very light cuts and and adjust the reamer small amounts on each pass through the bushing. Also use oil to lube the reamer. Charlie -------- Date: Sat, 06 Mar 2004 23:18:12 -0600 From: Jon Elson Subject: Re: Babbitt bearings aon a 10 inch atlas lathe vitopalazzo wrote: >Does anyone know what the babbitt bearings should be torked down to. >Or did i make a mistake in cleaning them. Not much torque. You are supposed to loosen the bolts for high speed (I'm guessing anything over 1000 RPM) and gently tighten them for lower speed work. The shims are compressible, and if you crush them, you will bind the spindle. (You did notice those shims under the bearing caps, and put them back exactly where they came from, didn't you?) As the babbit wears, you can remove shims in .004" increments. I used aluminum foil to make intermediate shims so I could have finer control. Obviously, you are having a problem, or you wouldn't have asked. What is the problem? If the lathe binds up when you just barely snug the bolts down, you must have lost at least one shim, or mixed them up, or mixed up the bearing caps. You will have to get the proper shims back in there to make it run again. If you lost the shims, you can make new ones from shim stock. It would take a lot of aluminum foil layers to build up the full hickness of those shim packs. make sure you have lots of oil available to the bearings. They will seize quickly if allowed to run dry. When the babbit is in good shape, the close fit keeps the oil in. When the bearings are worn egg-shape, the poor fit pumps oil out, and it is a problem to keep them running cool. There should be an oil wick in the bottom of the oil cups. An emergency wick can be made out of cotton shoelace material for sneakers. Jon -------- Date: Mon, 08 Mar 2004 22:02:06 -0000 From: "vitopalazzo" Subject: babbitt bearings Jon: You're right I am having a problem. When I took off the caps from the bearings there were shims on the left side of the headstock, but the left side (side closest to the chuck) did not have any. Also there was no wick in either bearing. The problem is the right side will not hold any oil it loses oil very fast. When I turn on the lathe, I hade a 1/2" aluminum rod about 3" long in the chuck. When I turn on the lathe the piece wobbled. I measured about .025 variations at the spindle. I assume the bearings are shot. I am a novice at metalworking. What would be my options for fixing this problem? I assume repairing the bearing. Is it possible to bore out the headstock and replace the Babbitt bearings with Timken bearings? Anything else. What would be the best approach to fix this problem? Cost is also a consideration. Vito -------- Date: Mon, 08 Mar 2004 21:52:23 -0600 From: Jon Elson Subject: Re: babbitt bearings >there was no wick in either bearing. The problem is the right side >will not hold any oil it loses oil very fast. You need a wick. A piece of white cotton sneaker shoelace works pretty well, and you probably want it to drip on the fast side with bearings in this shape. (The wool wick drips slower than cotton.) Going to a heavier oil will also slow the draining out. You can go to SAE 30 without much trouble, although it may cause heating at high speed. >When I turn on the >lathe, I hade a 1/2" aluminum rod about 3" long in the chuck. When I >turn on the lathe the piece wobbled. I measured about .025 >variations at the spindle. I assume the bearings are shot. No, it more than likely is the chuck jaws. The spindle can still run true with worn bearings. >Is it possible to bore out the headstock and replace the >Babbitt bearings with Timken bearings? No, the Timken bearings are much larger, and require a completely different headstock casting. The Timken outer races will not fit between the existing bolts. The best option is to re-babbit the bearings. What you do is make wood dams to keep the babbit from flowing out between the spindle/bearing space. These would basically be pieces of wood with close-fitting holes that slide onto the spindle from both sides of the bearing. Some people use modelling clay, putty, caulk and other oddities. C-clamps could be used to hold the wood dams in place. You cover the spindle with a very heavy layer of soot from a candle or rich oxy-acetylene flame, this is your mold release agent. You scrape some more clearance in the bearings, and then cut little gouges in the bearing ID to give the new babbit metal something to grip to. The final step is the alignment. The best way on an Atlas 10 or 12" is to move the headstock to the middle of the bed, and borrow another tailstock from somebody, and install the ram backwards. (This requires driving out (or unscrewing) the tailstock bearing assembly.) You use dead centers from both ends to get the spindle lined up precisely with the bed. The carriage can be left in the middle at first to ride a dial indicator along the spindle to verify that it is perfectly aligned with the bed. Then, run the carriage out of the area, put the headstock in there, and bring the tailstock back in to support the spindle. Assemble the bearings without shims or oil cups, and bolt down. Assemble the dams, and then pour your melted babbit into the oil cup holes. After it has cooled, remove the bearing caps. These will have to be broken away, as the thin layer of babbit surrounding the spindle will be one piece. If the babbit pour is going to be a thick layer, you will need to provide some sort of blade to separate the babbit before the pour. If you did the mold release properly, you should be able to pull the spindle out of the bearings without too much trouble. You may have to use steel wool or careful application of a sharp blade to remove any spots of babbit that have adhered to the spindle. The bearings should be fairly smooth, but may have some misalignment with the spindle when it all goes back together again. You can use blue spotting dye or magic marker to paint the bearing and then insert the spindle and see where it is rubbing hard. Scrape the high spots with a bearing scraper blade until the contact is more even. Cut a diagonal groove in the upper bearing half to act as an oil groove similar to what was there before. Drill through the oil cup hole so you can get the oil cups back on. Make shims out of shim stock or aluminum foil as needed. You won't need to add much clearance with the casting method. The most critical part is the scheme you use to get the spindle into alignment before the pour. If it is not right, there's no way to adjust the spindle into alignment except to do it over. And, a spindle that is misaligned to the bed will drive you crazy. Jon ------- Date: Mon, 08 Mar 2004 21:56:23 -0600 From: Jon Elson Subject: Re: babbitt bearings >I assumed it was the bearings because the wobble is there with both >the 3 jaw and four chuck, and I measured about 25 thousants >variations on the spindal. when I cut the aluminum rod along its >length the surface is very rough. Whenever you change chucks from one lathe to another, it is standard practice to face off the chuck backplate so the chuck will run without wobble. If you don't make the backplate register an interference fit to the chuck ID, then you can adjust the chuck into proper alignment with a little tapping and measuring. The bearings will not cause anything to wobble, unless the spindle journals are no longer round. This happens on IC engines due to the compression, but would be extremely rare on a lathe. A bent spindle WILL cause things to wobble, but unless it is severe, refacing the backplate should at least help. Jon -------- Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2004 23:08:45 EST From: n8as1x~xxaol.com Subject: Re: babbitt bearings chuck jaws worn so they dont hold at the end can cause the above...i have had them so worn that the cuts look like they were planed....check runout at spindle ..... dont beleive a properly set up totally worn babbit bearing will have anywhere near that runout ...ur caps are not set up right/ chuck jaws need truing ...a lathe w/worn babbitt is still usable for avg. work babbit can be repoured & line bored on the lathe ,BUT , u need to know what ur doing... most replace w/ a timpken bearing headstock ( ebay,dave sobel ,meridian machinery,plaza machinery ) .....if u repour ,will probably need to turn spindle true again,probably after welding it up ....if u want to USE it, do what u need to tighten down the caps so .001 to .002 clearance .... shim,/grind top caps...whatever needed..put an old tyme adjustable drip oiler on to meter oil (wholesale tool)....bearing will be eggshaped but usable...will just go thru a lot of oil... best wishes docn8as ------- Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2004 03:52:52 EST From: jmartin957x~xxaol.com Subject: Re: babbitt bearings << John I assumed it was the bearings because the wobble is there with both the 3 jaw and four chuck ... Vito >> If it's the bearings, you should get movement at the chuck if you chuck a heavy bar and try to pull/push in various directions. Measure the chuck, as the bar may bend. No rotation needed, although you can try the pushing at several positions. If you get movement, it's the bearings. Otherwise, it could be a bent spindle, a worn chuck, or too flexible a test bar. Some aluminums can be tough to cut well. John Martin ------- Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2004 15:59:30 EST From: catboat15x~xxaol.com Subject: Re: Shot babbit bearings >>> What would be my options for fixing this problem? I assume repairing the bearing. Is it possible to bore out the headstock and replace the Babbitt bearings with Timken bearings? Anything else. <<< I don't think you could fit roller bearings into a babbit bearing headstock, they are different castings. But, you can re-babbet bearings fairly easy, we used to re-babbet bearings in our hot-rods in my misspent youth. The idea is to obtain babbet metal from one of the usual suppliers. When you want to pour melted babbet into a bearing shell you have to "tin" the shell so the babbet will bond to the cast iron. Put a shaft of the size of the spindle (or the spindle itself) in the shell supported where it is supposed to be in the center of the shell. Put smoke from a candle or ac/o torch on everyplace you don't want the babbet to stick. Pour in the molten babbet metal, let cool and put your spindle in there with some bluing, plastigage or something that will transfer (We used to use lipstick) see where the coloring transfers and use an old three corner file with the teeth ground off to scrape away where things touch. Repeat till you see a mottled appearance of the transfered color and you are done. Do this with all the shims in place as it may wear fairly rapidly at first, depending on how good a job you do. Run slow at first to "break in" you new bearings. Lindsay has a couple of books with more detaled instructions. I also used to run many large pumps all with babbeted bearings and packed stuffing boxes and had less troubles on start up processes than with ball or roller bearings and mechanical seals. John Meacham In the high desert of California ------- Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2004 14:31:53 -0800 From: "Bob Barker" Subject: Re: Shot babbit bearings After the bearings are poured how do you make the split between the cap and head stock? Is the spindle or wooden spindle undersize so one will be able to bore the bearings to the proper size for the critical final spindle fit? Thanks, Bob ------- Date: Tue, 09 Mar 2004 21:59:05 -0600 From: Jon Elson Subject: Re: Shot babbit bearings >After the bearings are poured how do you make the split between >the cap and head stock? Is the spindle or wooden spindle undersize >so one will be able to bore the bearings to the proper size for the >critical final spindle fit? Because of the critical alignment needed of the spindle, you would be best to set up some sort of fixture to align the real spindle. On the original bearings, the shims run all the way to almost touch the spindle. If you put some aluminum foil or thin shim stock in there, it would probably allow the bearing to split easily at that line after the babbit hardens. If you have to do much scraping of the bearing to fit it, you will end up knocking the spindle out of alignment with the ways. Jon ------- Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 17:18:16 EST From: catboat15x~xxaol.com Subject: Re: Pouring bearings >After the bearings are poured how do you make the split between the cap >and head stock? We used to pour one half at a time with the bearing horizontal. Put the caps upside down on a work bench. Then pour the bottoms right on the lathe. You can use the shaft that is going to go into the bearing blocking it up a tad more than half way. (Every home mechanic needs a "tad" rule). I guess the right way would be to bore the partly finished bearing from a jig of some kind from the lathe bed, but final fitting is done by scraper. Before melting out the old babbet make note of any grooves, oil holes etc so you can duplicate the old bearings. Either a digital camera or Polaroid camera is a good thing to have to take pics of the before so you can put things back the way they came out. John Meacham In the high desert of California ------- Date: Sun, 7 Mar 2004 21:59:03 -0800 From: "Spurrs" Subject: Keeping the ways oiled and tailstock moving Following the rebuild of my 10-42, there remained the remains of the felt pads that are attached to the carriage. They had become hard and brittle, not able to hold and supply the oil to the bed ways. Having replaced them with felt intended to stop furnature marking floors, I can vouch for the effectiveness of these simple pads for keeping oil where it is needed. Well worth checking yours and replacing if they no longer hold oil. Easy way to check, is to remove them and apply oil. If it soaks in quickly then they are OK. If not then well worth replacing. Also, I was fed up with the tailstock clamp biting and preventing smooth sliding of the tailstock unless the clamp nut was loosened off too much. Fitting a spring between the clamp plate and tailstock casing keeps the clamp in line and allows the tailstock to be clamped by turning the nut by the amount allowed by the space between the webs of the tailstock casting. And finally. The scary part. Clamping a 2 inch bar in the chuck -new- and a 0.0001 inch clock on the carriage, the ease with which 4 thou movement could be achieved by pushing on the bar was scary. Even some force on the countershaft bracket or pushing down on the carriage was having an effect. This explains why a tool with a well rounded point continues to "clean up" after 2 passes and why a sharp point does not. I am not too bothered though. Machine is accurate to a thou and parts off in steel without problem. Have fun! Nigel ------- Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2004 17:15:18 -0800 From: "Bob May" Subject: Re: Re: Keeping the ways oiled and tailstock moving I'll note that sometimes just breaking the edge of the casting on the tailstock can keep the friction reasonable. My 618 has the problem of when you loosen the tailstock, the clamp just floats about underneath and when you move the tailstock, the clamp doesn't quite follow along and drags trailing the tailstock and thus the force of movement goes up. Bob May http://nav.to/bobmay NEW! http://bobmay.astronomy.net -------- Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2004 21:24:09 EST From: catboat15x~xxaol.com Subject: Re: Digest Number 1857 > It helps to know how they come apart, and go back together too. > Doing this only helps in your knowlege of how this thing works. A nice little trick when taking your lathe apart for moving and/or cleaning is to get a digital or poloroid camera and take photos of the way things were put together. When some parts are "stacked" for instance washers that come off in a particular order the photo will show you how they should go back. And watch out for shims in unexpected places that may stick to the part you lift off and fall on the floor and you don't know where they came from. When I went to move my 12 inch from the garage to the shop I removed the countershaft of course, took off the tail stock(just slides off the end) and removed the carrage by taking off the right hand bearing for the lead screw and cranking the carrage as far as I could and pushing off the bed. Pried up the bed and head stock and put a 2X4 under each end (Be sure to put some kind of spacer like a 3/4 inch wood stock under the 2X4 for room for someone to grab hold and lift) That was my wife's suggestion! I have four young strong grandsons living near and the job was easy. But, watch when you lift that sucker is top heavy! OH! BTW check that the 2X4s are short enough to get through any doorways. ------- Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2004 19:56:48 -0000 From: "smemsic" Subject: The grinding of the ways has begun The grinding of the bed ways of our model 101 28990 has begun. The bed measures 54 inches long with nothing mounted. We found a large job shop in Grand Rapids that is grinding the bed with a surface grinder that has a 12 foot capability. It is a monster machine made in 1971. It has a repeatability of 1 tenth of a thousandth of an inch. They charge $60.00 per hour with no minimum. I have been there for all the work on our lathe bed. We had figured that the major problem would be the groove that had been worn in to one of the ways. It turned out that the groove was not much of a problem at all. Other issues would arise. On the bottom of the bed where the feet attach, the surface was painted, but you could plainly see the tool marks from a fly cutter that was used to flatten the casting. After a though measuring the bed was placed on the mag plate upside down so that we could take a light cut on the leg mounting surface. Before the mag was energized a series of feeler gages were used to determine any gaps between the ways and the mag plate in its resting state. As these were located they were shimmed with appropriate sized shim stock. The bottom foot mounting surface was indicated and the mag plate energized to 50%. The indicator showed no movement. The grinding began with passes of .0005. One of the tailstock corners was brought down .0025 before the wheel started to touch the next corner, the headstock corner on the same side. Passes continued until all four corners had been ground flat with just a light reference mark left at the last corner, the other tailstock corner. The total needed to be taken off to get the foot mounting surfaces flat was .0125. Once the bottom was flat the bed was rotated way side up. It was re-indexed with the mag plate off. The ways showed a crown in the center of one of the ways of .009. This crown was centered from both ends and was highest at the inside of the non grooved way. This matched where we had shimmed. With the crown indexed the mag was energized to 50% and showed a deflection of the crown down of less than .0004. The center of the bed was not shimmed. Light passes were begun. The way with the groove happened to be the highest way. After .004 the way with the groove was ground corner to corner with the length of the groove reduced by about half. By .008 the groove was gone. However the other way was only being ground on the outside corners. Grinding continued until .013 at with point both ways were ground corner to corner with a small reference mark left at the non-grooved tail stock out side. We have not ground the underside of the no-rack way yet. A new wheel will be put on the machine so that the wheel can grind the way close to the bed without hitting the wheel arbor. Obviously this bed was way out of whack. I can not say what the first owner did as far as mounting it to the floor. For the last 25 years or so it has sat on the factory supplied bench cabinet (a very stout cabinet and bench with the motor underneath) mounted to a level concrete floor. Reportedly it had been leveled with an engineers level when it was installed 25 years ago. After the underside way is ground the sides of the ways will be ground. I will update after that is accomplished. Comments? Elliott ------- Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2004 23:35:20 -0000 From: "carbure2003" Subject: Re: The grinding of the ways has begun Once your bed is ground, use some marking blue on the bed and spot the saddle ways. You might have surprises. I discovered that my saddle had warped significantly. This might explain the groove on your bed. Take the advantage of this job in order to surface the bottom bearing plates at the same time. (It is a 5 min job on such a machine.) When you re-assemble your lathe you will have to be careful about shimming. You might have to re-align your lead screw as your saddle will have moved down. You are lucky to have such company in your area. Guy Cadrin Gatineau, QC Canada -------- Date: Thu, 01 Apr 2004 02:53:26 -0000 From: "smemsic" Subject: Old Craftsman vs new Chinese, bubble burst Over the weekend I definitely was of the opinion that one would be better off buying a used Craftsman/Atlas lathe as opposed to buying a Chinese rig. I am now of the opinion that the newer lathe is the way to go. As I have been chronicling, I am rebuilding a 101 28990. It is an under- cabinet model. The cabinet that comes with the lathe has all of the motor and motor speed control is located in the cabinet under the headstock. http://www.lathes.co.uk/atlas/page4.html When we ground the bed we found just bizarre stuff. The bed and ways were crowned, twisted, and bent. There were NO two surfaces that matched. This bed was one tortured piece of metal. We fixed everything. We thought. As we were getting ready to reassemble the lathe, I noticed that the two cast feet that the bed sits on, were raw castings with not one machine mark on them. I put them on a surface plate and indexed them. There are two large bearing surfaces on the bottom, and three bearing surfaces on the top. No two surfaces was within .019in. the worst surface was .098 inches off. No wonder the bed was twisted. When one tightened the bolts on the bed and cabinet, it would put all kinds of pressures on the bed. After using a surface grinder I brought them to flat, parallel, and both of equal height we thought we were in good shape. Then we went to put the chip pan back on the bench. This bench/cabinet is a massive piece, it has six "feet", weighs about 350 lbs with out the lathe bed. We are in a rented building and can't drill into the floor. We had anticipated the "feet" issue and had welded six nuts to the feet and added adjustable feet. As we started to put the chip pan on we noticed that the channel that the pan sits on in the cabinet section had been welded below the level of the surrounding cabinet. We would have put the chip pan on and leveled the bench/pan, then bolted down the bed and twist it up. We shimmed the channel to the level of the top of the cabinet. Once we had completed that we tried to level the bench. No way could we get it level. The whole bench system is twisted. Up on closer examination we find that this cabinet has lots of different holes that were part of some other set up. The cabinet portion was probably used for some other machine that they made. They "adapted it". They added a shelf, another set of legs, and knocked a couple of pieces out of a vent to mount the motor. I have been amazed at the poor quality of many of the components. Since this lathe has the automated cross-feed it was built after 1967 http://www.lathes.co.uk/atlas/page5.html Maybe by that time they had started to have money problems and changed the quality of the components. There is simply no way that this lathe was going to cut straight. There is no way that you could set the lathe up with out twisting and bending the bed. Atlas did put out a service bulletin about taking the bow or crown out with shims. If I was starting again I would go buy a new lathe made in India if I had to, and that sucks. elliott ------- Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 22:35:46 EST From: LouD31M066x~xxaol.com Subject: Re: Old Craftsman vs new Chinese, bubble burst Sounds like you have found more than your share of troubles...and solved them. Some of the problems were no doubt original to the machine, others... twisting bowing and bending might be attributed to prior use and misuse. Since this is an Atlas Craftsman Forum we do not hear a lot about import owners problems, but, enough to know that quality and design faults exist.....so I would not be so hasty as to jump ship without looking first...especially now that you are getting to know and correct the problems with your present machine. Louis ------- Date: Thu, 08 Apr 2004 12:00:14 -0500 From: Jon Elson Subject: Re: Help, headstock alignment question smemsic wrote: >Well, the 101 28990 that we have been rebuilding is running. It >seems that the headstock needs to be aligned. The inside of the ways >wasn't touched during the grinding so I don't think that that has any >influence on the taper. Was the way grinding specifically aligned to the inner face of the ways? If not, then there may be some misalignment to them, now. You can use a plain micrometer to measure the front to back width of the ways. Take one measurement at the left and right ends of the bed and compare. If more than a thousandth of an inch off, you have a problem. >The headstock fits tightly in between the ways. There is a block >with a large bolt that clamps the ways from underneath on the >business end of the headstock. There are two bolts that come up >through the ways into the back end. The fit is such that I don't >believe it can be moved. The run out is about .001 over two inches >and is very consistent. There are really only a couple of possibilites. From the model number, I'm pretty sure this is a Timken bearing spindle, so misaligned babbit bearing caps should not be part of the situation. So, the only remaining possibilities are a warped bed or that the grinding was not aligned with the center ways. The result is the same, the headstock fits into a tight fit that is not parallel to the main ways. How do you fix it? Well, the horrible, rough way is to take a die grinder and open up the spot where the headstock fits enough to allow it to be aligned. Since you know which way it needs to be adjusted, you can grind just a little at two opposite corners to give the amount of movement needed. How far off is it, anyway? How did you determine it is misaligned? Are you turning tapers, using a test rod between centers, or what? If checking alignment with an unsupported thick bar in the chuck, be sure the bar is not bending. Probably the best way to do this is to put a 1/2 to 1" diameter hardened and ground shaft in the chuck, and align it for minimum wobble. Then, use a dial test indicator on the toolpost to read close to the chuck, and again farther out. Don't use a bar longer than 1 foot, as it will sag a lot. If the bar wobbles as the chuck is rotated, then use the average indicator measurement. Oh, yes, make absolutely sure the bed and the headstock base are completely clean before installing it. And, since it was reground, it may now have a very sharp edge that could peel a small chip off the headstock base and throw it out of alignment. You might need to break that edge where the headstock is an interference fit in the bed, to prevent any chips from developing as you plant the headstock in place. Jon ------- Date: Fri, 09 Apr 2004 02:06:03 -0000 From: "carbure2003" Subject: Re: Help, headstock alignment question When I rebuilt my lathe after a flood damage, I encountered the same problem. I checked the clearance between the tailstock slide. I was able to insert at least one 0.001" shim at both ends of the headstock In order to allow fine adjustment on the headstock orientation, I drilled 2 holes at the end of the bed ways in order to move the headstock sideways. Set screws 1/4 NF 28 with pins were inserted in those holes. This allowed me to have a fine adjustment on the headstock alignment. I tuned it until I couldn't read any error on diameter on a piece of brass stock 1 in dia over at least 2 in long, with a very fine honed cutting tool. This took a while but it worked. The use of a scientific calculator, dial indicator and a 1 ft long piece of steel allowed an exact estimation of the angle to rotate the headstock. The headstock is set to rotate around the contact points close to the chuck. When you tight down the headstock holding bolts, everything moves. Ensure you take readings before and after you loosen everything. Machine tool reconditioning has a procedure to check the alignment of the headstock that calls for a ground test bar with MT3 taper at one end. If interested to the procedure, write a email to me directly. I will forward it to you. With a bit of thinking, you can adapt the procedure to inexpensive equipment available, and 2 grams of brain. Guy Cadrin Gatineau, QC Canada ------- Date: Fri, 9 Apr 2004 09:29:41 EDT From: cmiller231x~xxaol.com Subject: Re: Re: Help, headstock alignment question In a message dated 4/9/2004, sunny03060x~xxyahoo.com writes: >>> The problem could just as easily lie in the carriage; happened to me... loose gibs, loose compound rest nut in the carriage, allowing slop. <<< Yes, i also found interference on the edge of the gibs, and the height of the circular dovetail on the compound was a tad too high, therefore not allowing the compound to seat completely, causing chatter. Chris ------- Date: Fri, 09 Apr 2004 17:31:21 -0000 From: "smemsic" Subject: Headstock alignment issues Thanks for the input on the headstock alignment problem. First of all let me assure you that the saddle was also rebuilt. I used Moglase to create a new bearing surface on the saddle. The entire process was done in such a way as to insure that the crossslide is level with the bed and absolutely perpen- dicular to the chuck. All the surfaces are appropriately tight. The alignment has been checked first with a ground bar that was chucked and indicated in close to the chuck as we moved away from the chuck the indicator moved smoothly up. I then put centers in both the headstock and tailstock. The center points were aligned. Between the centers I put a 18 inch threaded rod driven by a dog.. On the rod at each end is a fender washer jammed between two nuts. Each fender washer is turned down until round. A final cut was taken without moving the cutting tool in or out. If every thing is aligned then the washers should be the same size. They are not. At fourteen inches apart the first difference was .020. I adjusted the tailstock and got it within .008. When you take the rod out and bring the centers together they don't align. I removed the headstock from the ways, checked that there were no burrs or dirt. The fit is tight with no wiggle without tightening the bolts. I indicated the spindle in. As I tightened the bolts there was less than .001 movement. Yes this is a Timken Bearing headstock. When the bed was ground the (which I have described in an earlier post) we did not touch inside the ways because of not wanting this kind of problem. So much for that. The bed definitely had a bend in it. Hell, it had so many bends and twists that I don't know how the saddle could even slide. The bend (curve) in the bed that would have affected the alignment wasn't as big as some of the other problems. We took of about .008 of each side while clamped to angle plates. We had shimmed the down side so as to grind in a relaxed state. While we had miked the width of the ways to ensure they were equal, it appears that either the headstock is out of alignment with its self or that the inside ways have a curve in them that averages out to be equal over the entire length. Since there is no adjustment on the headstock I am coming to the opinion that I will have to add one or this lathe is pretty much useless. Given my exper- iences, I got to tell you that it would have been far cheaper and a better outcome if I had bought a new "offshore" lathe. If I had gotten a new one home and found out that it was this far out it would have gone back to the store. If I am going to adjust it I might as well do it right as opposed to just grinding some metal way and shimming. Does anyone one the list have any ideas for creating an adjustment mechanism for this headstock? Elliott ------- Date: Fri, 9 Apr 2004 11:16:01 -0700 From: "Bob May" Subject: Re: Headstock alignment issues The spindle and tailstock should be in front/rear alignment when they touch. Up/down alignment is less critical but should still be close as this also can make taper problems due to the tool working around the radius of the work. Turning between centers should not produce a taper or the tailstock is offset from where it should be and that needs to be corrected. Turning without being between centers will produce a different result if the bed is warped - something that is different than having an offset tailstock. You can turn a taper due to a warped bed and yet be able to turn perfectly straight when between centers. Bob May http://nav.to/bobmay ------- Date: Fri, 09 Apr 2004 19:48:53 -0000 From: "smemsic" Subject: Re: Headstock alignment issues Bob, thanks for your reply. The up down alignment is not a problem. The entire bed was ground so every- thing came down at the same rate. It has been checked and is ok. Since I noticed that you are involved in astronomy, I can guess that you know the need for lens for cameras have to be pretty accurate. Turning lens barrels is one of the things that I need to do. While I can set the tailstock up so that I won't turn a taper, it means that everything that is a different length would alter the setup. This would require moving the tailstock to match the new length and then finding out how much more or less the tailstock would have to be adjusted. The other problem is that it eliminates using a chuck which is the majority of what I need to turn. I can't begin to tell you how time consuming it would be to have to turn everything on centers and have to re align the tailstock to a new position. It would also mean building arbors for the tube diameter, which is too big for the centers. I don't know if you have read the previous post on how the ways were ground. Re: Grinding of the bed ways has begun. It describes the process. The bed is now parallel and flat within .0002. The feet bearing surfaces, the top of the ways, the underside of the ways, and finally the side of the ways were ground. It has been reassembled on the cast feet which have been ground flat and parallel. These sit on a steel bench which we modified to sit flat on the floor and has a flat parallel surface on which the feet and then the bed is bolted. Everything has been leveled with a Starrett machinist's level (The main level vials have graduations that are approx- imately 80-90 seconds or .005" per foot (0.42 mm per meter)). The only thing which I can't vouch for is the inside surface of the ways and the machined surfaces of the headstock. I believe every other surface is within .0002. Until the headstock points directly down the ways I'm screwed. Elliott ------- Date: Fri, 9 Apr 2004 14:46:20 -0700 From: "Patrick Lee Rooney" Subject: RE: Re: Headstock alignment issues The one thing I always liked about my 10F-QC, is the interference fit between the headstock and the inside way surface. No matter how many times over the years I have pulled the headstock off, as long as the mating surfaces are free of debris, it would return to dead on alignment. It wasn't always so. I experienced a similar situation to yours when I first purchased it. Although the bed was nearly unused, I could not get the spindle aligned. I checked the obvious, but to no avail. What I DIDN'T check carefully, was the mounting surface on the headstock. It is only machined an inch or so on either end. Mine had been dropped, mushroomed, and fractured. Someone did a nice job of brazing and grinding on the bad side, but the other side was un- touched and out of flat about a half thou for just .25 inch at the very end. I suppose I could have tried grinding, but I instead found a new, undamaged headstock casting. I swapped out parts, and now enjoy repeatability every time it comes off for service. ------- Date: Sat, 10 Apr 2004 01:28:55 -0500 From: Jon Elson Subject: Re: Headstock alignment issues This tells you something is wrong, but you have no idea what. Did you level both ends of the lathe with a master precision level? If not, then the most likely cause is your bed is being twisted by the bench or whatever it is mounted on. You MUST level the bed with some type of very sensitive level, to get the two ends completely parallel. If you don't do this, then all the effort spent in regrinding the bed will be wasted. >Since there is no adjustment on the headstock I am coming to the >opinion that I will have to add one or this lathe is pretty much useless. Don't! Unless you measure from the front to back vertical surface of the ways, and prove that the inner surfaces are not parallel to the outer, this will be a big mistake. Aligning the headstock to a twisted bed will make it practically impossible to get anything to line up. You MUST align the ends of the bed to exact parallelism, or anything else you do will just be fixing the wrong thing. See if you can find someone in the area who will loan you a master precision level, or come over and use it on your bed. These levels are extremely sensitive, you can put a hair under one end and it will move the bubble several divisions. You'd be amazed at the difference in the functioning of a lathe you will see when it is properly leveled. (I sure was when I got my M. P. level.) Even my 3500 Lb Sheldon lathe will get a twist in the bed if the feet are not adjusted just right. >Given my experiences, I got to tell you that it would have been far >cheaper and a better outcome if I had bought a new "offshore" lathe. >If I had gotten a new one home and found out that it was this far out >it would have gone back to the store. If you had gotten a similar size new lathe and not leveled it, you'd get the same result. Jon -------- NOTE TO FILE: I'm going to end this particular lathe's sad tale here. The story should serve as a warning that large projects are rarely simple, and any of these old machines should be examined closely, everywhere!, before a commitment to purchase or overhaul is made. Fortunately, this incident is not typical of the average Atlas owner's experiences. With more than just a bit of care and adjustment, the old iron usually does pretty good. ------- NOTE TO FILE: As far as is known, standard Atlas lathes left the factory with beds that had been machine ground. While a custom finish might (?) have been ordered in some cases, it is more likely that an Atlas lathe with scraping marks had that done afterwards -- either properly done to correct/refit a worn lathe, or even to counterfeit a quality rework by random marks badly applied by a faker. Buyer beware. ------- Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2004 03:05:13 -0000 From: "carbure2003" Subject: Re: ways "Timothy Stachlewitz" wrote: > A question about the ways on my Atlas TH-54. How did the ways look from > the factory. Were they smooth or flaky looking? I am wondering if mine > have been reworked or not. >From the description you are giving, your lathe bed was quite likely >hand scraped. This practice has almost disappeared as it is takes a lot of time to generate a flat surface. If the flake looking is seen on all the surface, chances is that you have a very high quality bed. The same type of marks can be seen on many old South Bend lathes. More recent south bend lathes were quite likely surface ground, then manually hand frosted (a technique that was used in order to make lubrication oil pocket on bed ways as well as give a nice esthetic look. (on my SB 10K, there is no trace of hand scraping, only frosting) The bed flatness was tested with a master precision straight edge hand scraped to a very high standard. Inaccuracies on the bed were scraped until a flat surface was obtained, therefore producing a flake like pattern. If you are interested about the technique, you can find everything in the book Machine Tool Reconditioning. In Chapt 26, (lathe re-construction) there is a picture of a Atlas Bed that was hand scraped. (Page 279) Surface grinding will produce flat surfaces as flat as the accuracy of the machine. However, the heat generated by the grinding stone can cause some distorsions in castings if the operator doesn't take appropriate precautions. Surface grinding produces a smooth surface. Guy Cadrin Gatineau, QC Canada ------- Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2004 09:24:05 -0500 From: "jerdal" Subject: Re: Re: ways The grinding without frosting may also indicate a flame-hardened bed, although that isn't true of any Atlas or Craftsman, to my knowledge. Clausing did offer it I believe, and on the non-hobby machines, such as South Bend or Logan, you may find flame-hardening on some models.. Frosting is a pernicious and destructive treatment, which may give oil pockets, but also gives nice pockets for grit to collect in, just like a lap. The grit then continuously laps away your sliding surface as you use it. Wear is probably made 10 times as fast as it would otherwise be by the frosting. A high price to pay for a "trick" look. The "spangly" finish of a scraped surface looks similar to the spangles of a dip-galvanized bucket, only usually finer in grain. It is plenty attractive enough for anyone, and won't collect grit. The very worst of the offenders are the ebay sharks, who take a worn surface and apply a "frosting" to it to try to make their completely worn out "Rustoleum Rebuild" look factory new. Typically this looks like a bunch of "Nike swooshes" widely spaced. Not only this false frosting a "dirty lie", it usually looks as if it has been done with a broken shovel by a bored chimp. It has essentially damaged the surface in question beyond economical repair. If the unit wasn't worn out before, it is after. Jerrold ------- Date: Wed, 07 Jul 2004 20:12:34 -0000 From: volzmechatronicx~xxyahoo.com Subject: Re: Re-finishing machine tools --- In Metal_Shapersx~xxyahoogroups.com, "RJ" wrote: >>> I'll be watching for answers to this too. I'm a newbie, and some prior owner of my new-to-me Craftsman 12" lathe put a pretty good notch in the compound with the chuck jaws. I thought I would use my oxy/acet welder to fill in/build up the area, then grind/file/sand it back to shape. Any reason NOT to do this...or a better/easier way? RJ <<< Does the damage impair function or is it just cosmetic? If it works, don't fix it. There's a strong possibility that if you heat the damaged area to brazing or welding temps that you will warp it...and then you will have to re-machine it to bring it back to previous specs...if you can. Your lathe ...your call. If it's just cosmetic, fill it will epoxy-metal, shape to form, paint it pretty, and be happy. If it was mine...and it worked...it would just remain ugly...like it's owner. Ugly-ness is a standard of pride in my shop: we'll all olde ugly buzzards...but...we work...now and then...when we've had our ration of long-necks. Art ("The Ugly Machine Shop"--Houston North) ------- Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2004 20:26:29 -0400 From: "Carl Corbeau" Subject: Re: Re-finishing machine tools Tig welding cast filler into the ding will give you the best colour match and the least heat input, if you must make it pretty. Carl ------- Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2004 13:53:46 +1200 From: "Phil Sumser" Subject: Re: Re: Re-finishing Hi Carl, I've had great success with the following to fill in large "dings" in my machine tools. Collect some cast iron dust/fine chippings the next time you use your shaper and mix it with Araldite (2 tube epoxy) until you get a thick paste which is hard to stir. Ram this mixture into the "ding" and let harden for a few days. It can then be machined/filed to shape or you can add more to build up big holes. After a few weeks it's as hard as rock. Much cheaper than some other methods as Araldite can be bought cheaply at most DIY stores. (Acknowledgment and credit for this tip goes to Toby Wilkinson in Wellington) Phil Sumser New Zealand ------- Date: Wed, 07 Jul 2004 21:13:36 -0500 From: "J. R. Williams" Subject: Re: Digest Number 944 I would go for a material brand :Devcon: which is a powdered iron/steel with an Epoxy base. It sets up hard, easily machined and closely matches the cast iron look. Any welding can cause problems. Cast iron can get extremely hard in the heat effected zone and make machining difficult if not almost impossible. I repaired a couple cut sections in my old milling machine table and the result was excellent. It is a good material to wipe on rough castings before painting vs using the "Bondo" material. JRW ------- Date: Mon, 09 Aug 2004 11:09:57 -0000 From: "icuneed12" Subject: Re: Noisy --- In atlas_craftsman, "Don" wrote: >>My recently purchased QC54 Atlas 10" is what I consider noisy. Is this a trait of this model? The lathe does not show excessive wear anywhere. I made sure the mesh was correct with the forward/off/reverse selector but it still has that loud rattling sound and the gears are properly lubricated with 30W oil. Thanks, Donald << I have also just purchased an Atlas lathe (TH54). I have installed new bearings and it is also quite noisy. My noise appears to originate on the spindle, head end. It is where the gear and the step pulley mesh together. I also wonder if this is normal. Thanks, Raymond ------- Date: Mon, 09 Aug 2004 12:15:27 -0500 From: Jon Elson Subject: Re: Re: Noisy The back gear can be somewhat noisy, itself, but you usually can't even hear it because the step pulley is clanging around on the spindle and ringing like a bell. But, that racket should stop when it is in direct drive. Do you get this noise both in direct drive and back gear? (I don't see how that is possible, as the gears are not meshed, then.) If you get a gear grinding noise when the gears are NOT meshed, then it is obviously a very bad bearing. Jon ------- Date: Mon, 9 Aug 2004 18:23:27 +0100 From: "Alan Barnett" Subject: Re: Noisy I have a 10" F series no gearbox, I thought the back gears were excessively noisy and thought I was alone on this. To try and reduce the noise I have made new sleeves for the gears cutting down the free play, I have also made a new stud that holds the 32 tooth idler to the headstock assembly, I have made the stud thread eccentric to the body so the idler gear mesh can be adjusted by turning the stud. This has made quite a bit of difference but ...... its still noisy ! My next step is to make a 32 tooth gear in nylon to see if this will help, if someone has done this perhaps they could stop me from re-inventing the wheel. The questions I have are:- Are the gears 20deg pressure angle ? What DP do I need to cut this gear ? I assume a No 4 cutter is OK ? Thanks for any assistance Alan ------- Date: Mon, 09 Aug 2004 23:13:56 -0000 From: "carbure2003" Subject: Re: Noisy My machine was quite noisy, I guess it is directly related to the gear quality. (101.28990) A check on my 32-16 compound gear in the gear train showed that the depth of the gear teeth is not constant as it should be. I believe they are die cast gears. I decided to give a couple extra thou clearance to the reversing idler gears, mounting them on excentric studs on the reversing gear lever. I considered this successful. As a test to see if this could be a solution for your problem, rotate the reversing gear assembly by hand with remainder of the gear train leading to the gear box disengaged. If you feel no backlash in between some of the gear teeth, you have the same problem as I did. Now, run it under power and listen. Most of the gearing noise comes from the spindle gear, reverser gears or the compound gear. My two reversing gears are now mounted on ball bearings. Combined with good lubrication, my modifications significantly reduced the noise down, to a point that up to 800 RPM it produces less noise than it used to do at 500 RPM with my old configuration. At some point, I had a bakelite gear that replaced the 48T idler gear. This also reduced the noise. The gear was damaged when I accidentally engaged the split nuts while the saddle was locked. Now I understand why South Bend gears were manufactured out of cast iron. (Cast iron absorbs vibrations better than the aluminium alloy used by Atlas.) I would replace some of the gears in the gear train with Delrin gears as a trial in the near future. My target gears would be the reverser idling gears. Guy Cadrin ------- Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2004 18:32:21 +0100 From: "Nigel Spurr" Subject: Re: Noisy Noise: 1. Motor vibration passing through machine - Isolate motor mounts. 2. Countershaft bearings - Grease 3. Spindle bearings - Thick oil, make sure there is no play. 4. Pulley rattling on shaft - Carefully adjust the various spindle mounted parts to minimise end float. Use of way oil also helps. I am considering fitting a thin spring washer between the bull gear and pulley next time I have the spindle out. 5. Back gear - No hope! 6. Spindle gears. Good gear design practice suggests that gears with even numbers of teeth will be noisy. I suggest making/ obtaining odd tooth numbers together with one of the gears in delrin. Better still, fit a tumbler reverse. In the meantime, use of way oil makes a worthwhile noise reduction. 7. Wear ear plugs 8. Turn up the music! ------- Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2004 19:24:40 -0000 From: "icuneed12" Subject: Re: Noisy My noise occurs at the spindle pulley set. I have replaced both timken bearings and race, 3 bronze bushings. There is a screw in the spindle pulley that will cause the pulley to lock onto the spindle. If I tighten this screw then all of the noise is gone. I realize that this screw should not be tight, so I loosened it and the noise is back. Also I have noticed that if no belt pressure is applied and the pulley can slip, there will be no noise. The pulleys that make the noise also cause a vibration. ------- Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2004 13:06:25 -0700 From: Don Rogers Subject: Re: Re: Noisy Take a look at the shafting. I just rebuilt the head on a 6" mdl 10100 that was very noisy. My wife came running to the garage hollering "What's that noise" when I first started it up. I replaced the bushings in the drive pulley, and in the back gear. On both, I used longer bushings than standard, completely filling the ID of the pulley and back gear assembly. I turned a groove in the OD of the bushings to align with the oil port, drilled four holes at 90 degrees through this groove to the ID. I then used Loctite to mount the bushings (some were kind of loose in the housing). I then fit the bushings to their shaft. A little scraping was needed on the back gear after I reamed it to size. I then cut four grooves in the ID of the bushing front to back, passing over the holes I just drilled. This was to provide a path to fully lube the bushings. The eccentric shaft for the back gear was loose in the housing, and the OD where the bushings fit was undersized also. This didn't look like wear, but manufacturing. I made a new eccentric shaft that fit both the housing, and the bushings. Next, I tackled the tumbler gears. The riveted studs for the gears were loose. I tightened up the rivets, and re-assembled. I had removed everything from the head but the spindle. It was smooth, and tight and I didn't want to disturb the settings for the Timken bearings. I cleaned all of the old grease and oil and the re-lubed everything using #90 gear lube. After putting it back together and adjusting the gear lash, it ran very quietly. I think I'll have to rebuild the tumbler though and replace the riveted shafts with screw-in shafts. I don't like the looks of the rivet job. Not enough meat left on the shaft to hold well. The key, in my mind, to making the lathe run quieter, and smoother, is to prevent the gears from climbing by removing all excess clearance. You want the gears to have minimum backlash also, but not be tight. The paper bag trick is a good one. You should feel just a little wink in the gears, not a lot, but some. Now to go cut some stuff. Don Rogers ------- Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2004 19:55:21 -0500 From: Jon Elson Subject: Re: Re: Scaping Questions [atlas_craftsman group] Ron Gerlach wrote: >>An update and another question: After reading all the posts, doing more research and trying a few techniques I have come to my humble conclusions. I have settled on using a small ink roller to apply the dye. With the ink roller I can get extremely good coverage consistency across the entire surface and the amount of dye needed is very little thus I can stick with the Hi-Spot dye and use it full strength. The ink roller is also much less of a mess. I was previously using my finger and a small piece of cloth. Now that was a mess. << Eww, yes I found a roller to be much better than other methods. >>On to the question: Can you apply the dye directly to pink granite surface plates without leaving any permanent stains? Does one have to apply a sealer to the granite? << I suspect it will leave some stain. I can't imagine any sealer that would actually work without affecting the accuracy of the surface plate. I bought a surface plate cleaner in a spray bottle. It works OK on the Hi-Spot dye, but works VERY well on the Canode water-soluble dyes. Your ink roller will probably get covered in lint and small scraping particles, and you won't be able to wash it off. I can wash the Canode off my rubber "speedball brayer" roller, dry it, and be back in business in less than 3 minutes. It takes me about 10 minutes to clean my surface plate with the spray, let it dry, and then wipe all the latex "worms" off it before re-applying the Canode. I can't imagine what it would be like after a heavy scraping session if I'd used Hi-Spot. Jon ------- Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2004 17:04:11 -0500 From: Jon Elson Subject: Re: cross slide slop flaskstoo wrote: >Is .040 slop or free play in the cross slide acceptable?.. to me it >feels excessive. Somewhere in the archives I read where a writer >mentioned a method of removing the slop in the cross slide by making >a simple shim..where does the shim go? First, you have to separate bushing slop from nut slop. The handle assembly has two nuts, and a graduated dial on either side of the handle itself. What you do is loosed the outermost nut and then tighten the inner nut until the handle begins to bind. Back off the nut the smallest increment possible and then lock it in place with the outer nut. When done right, this will eliminate any axial play in the cross slide screws. You want just enough play so the graduated dial can stil be adjusted. > I can live with the worn thread nut for awhile longer. There is no play > in the handle and lead screw so is it possible the nut is worn this > badly? Thanks, Donald Ah, you've already adjusted the handle. Well, there's one more place where slop can occur. The nut has an extension right around the screw that attaches it to the cross slide itself. (At least, I think mine did.) If this is a loose fit in the cross slide it allows the nut to move a bit before the slide begins to move. If no free play there, then the nut is the culprit. That is not a big surprise, it is one of the high wear points on any lathe. With modest turning skills, you can make a new nut. (Watch out, it is a LEFT hand thread - don't ask how that is so vividly remembered.) .040" free play suggests there is only .010" of brass left in the nut thread. It is better to make a new nut before the thread is completely gone. Jon ------- Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2004 22:32:04 EDT From: n8as1x~xxaol.com Subject: Re: cross slide slop thank u jon for the post .....went down to shop & x slide had .060 + slop ......tightened the nut screw ( really didnt feel really loose or notice movement ) ...now there is ..009 lash .........number one ...cant believe i didnt check this , ..2 ...cant believe what felt like no movement took .050 out ......& just when i was going to go all the way to .100 & failure !!!!!!!..............BTW the first sq. thrd i cut was a compound nut for 1912 prentice 13 in. ...when i got to the point of checking for final fit, it wudnt start on screw .....yeah ....L.H. .....so we ground a left hand bit & went at it again....worst of all it was a '"labor trade off job" tnx docn8as ------- Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2004 13:20:38 -0500 From: "John Richardson" Subject: Re: help...rack removal. > I'm trying to remove the rack from a Craftsman 4-foot bed and it's still > attached after removing all of the screws. It must be pinned at each end > but I can't find a drawing or info on the rack assembly. Does anyone know > how to remove the rack or where the pins are.... i.e. are they part > of the bed or part of the rack? Thanks, Tj Bassi I recently removed mine, and you will have to grind the heads off of the rivets and remove the screws to do so. May take a little prying to remove the rack from the rivets. Mine had rivets and screws, but maybe others might be different. The rivets were located on each end of the rack, and they stayed in the bed when I pried the rack off, which didn't come off easily. John Richardson ------- Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2004 15:40:30 EST From: gto69ra4x~xxaol.com Subject: Re: help...rack removal. Grind the heads off the rivets? My 10F's rack is held on with a few screws and located with a couple pins. Just had to get a knife edge under the rack and carefully wiggle it off on both ends. John ------- Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2004 23:05:11 -0000 From: "rumutt" Subject: Re: help...rack removal. There are pins and they are part of the rack. I had to take a very thin flat screw driver and tap at the joint between the rack and the bed. Being gentle I was able to separate the rack from the bed. If I remember right it had 4 pins. Bruce ------- Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2004 18:55:18 -0800 From: Don Rogers Subject: Re: Digest Number 223 > I was wondering (since I'll probably need to have my new lathe bed > ground or surfaced) what does one do with the rack to carriage handwheel > gears clearances? After all, if you surface the bed ways the saddle > will ride "lower" on the lathe and that will change the mesh of the > teeth on the rack and carriage. Spacer the rack? Adjustment of the gear > carrier? Also, what about the leadscrew and half nuts? Same deal? Consider that at most, you will have 0.005" or so taken off the top surface even if the ways are really worn. What you want is a cleanup of the wear. You will not try to remove all of the dents and dings, but just enough to put the lathe back into top order. If you have to take off more than that, you have a real problem. You goal in a resurface it to restore a working surface, not to make it cosmetically perfect. In the way back when, when I was a machine repairman at a GM plant, we rebuilt the bed on a huge Pratt & Whitney Keller. The P&W factory reps came in with their arsenal of tools. Part of that package was some power scrapers. I had never seen them before. Boy, could you remove some metal with them. The first thing we did was to scrape off the entire upper surface. After spending a couple days of two shift work, we had all of the wear marks cut off. Then came another 12 days or so to put the surface back in order with some huge surface plates, around 30 ft long that were setup just for the P&W. It would take an hour just to apply the bluing. The big overhead crane would lift it and drop it onto the ways. Come-along's were rigged at each end and a trip each way was made and then the plate was lifted off and the team of six guys went to work knocking off the high spots. When we were finished after the two week project, we had removed 0.007" from the ways. We made the adjustments to the gibs and away we went, good for another 10 years or so. I doubt that it will require removing anywhere that amount of metal from your 6x18, unless the grinder operator is sloppy in his setup. The rack to gear clearance is set up with around 0.010 to 0.020 clearance to start with. An additional couple thousandths is not going to be noticeable. The normal wear in the split nuts and the eccentric closer will far exceed the amount of metal removed in the refinishing. The float in the setup will take care of the slightly lower saddle. Don ------- Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2004 18:28:12 -0600 From: Jon Elson Subject: Re: Power crossfeed problem Jerry G wrote: >I've been fixing up a 'new' Craftsman 12x36 101.07403 lathe. Been >takin it one step at a time. >Last (I hope), but not least, is the power crossfeed. This is the >first lathe I've owned with a power crossfeed. When engaged, it >appears to run fine (visually). However, if I hold the crossfeed >handle (with finger pressure), it stops, and the brass engagement knob >also stops turning. I haven't actually tried any facing cuts yet, but it >doesn't seem that light pressure should stop the crossfeed. Does the main leadscrew stop turning? If so, then the emergency clutch is set too light, or the shear pin has sheared, depending on the particular setup. There have been several versions of this over time to address the problem of breaking major lathe parts in a crash. If not, then the keyway in the big miter gear that wraps around the leadscrew has sheared off inside it. This is a bit harder to fix. I've heard of several schemes involving a brass collar that is attached to the gear, or replaces the part of the gear that runs in the bushing (?) that holds it. Or, you can get the gear from the Clausing Service Center. Jon ------- Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2004 16:56:25 -0800 From: "Glenn" Subject: Re: Power crossfeed problem It sounds like the key in the gear that rides on the leadscrew is stripped. Good time to pull the apron and check out all the bits in there and lube repair as necessary. The half nuts probably could use a good clean anyway :) You could probably broach a slot in the gear and glue a key in to repair the sheared key. I believe the key was cast into the gear. ------- Date: Sat, 27 Nov 2004 10:29:17 -0000 From: "Jerry G" Subject: Re: Power crossfeed problem Yes, the leadscrew continues to turn normally and I think the key on the leadscrew mitre gear is still there because I have to align the slot in the leadscrew with it when I reinstall the leadscrew. But I'll check again. I guess it could also be a problem with the matching mitre gear on the apron. Fortunately it's an easy takedown. I'll go back inside today. Has to be one/both of the mitre gears. ------- Date: Sat, 27 Nov 2004 19:09:52 -0000 From: "Jerry G" Subject: Power crossfeed - mystery solved Went all over this whole situation again. Only this time I put an inspection mirror under the carriage so I could watch the mitre gears under power. When I applied pressure to the crossfeed handle the mitre gear on the leadscrew stopped but the 'key' continued to rotate with the leadscrew! So I completely disassembled it and found out I'm apparently the victim of a failed repair job. Only the original geared portion, of what I believe was a one-piece unit, remains. A steel bushing, with a key brazed inside, was push fit inside the original gearhead. Looks good, but even under a light load the keyed bushing turns inside the geared portion - rendering it useless. At this point, my first thought is to do some careful drilling and cross pin the mitred gearhead to the steel bushing. Any other ideas would be appreciated. Never worked with Zamak before (I think that's what these gears are made of). BTW, is the steel bushing okay or should it have been brass. ------- Date: Sat, 27 Nov 2004 11:21:09 -0800 From: "Glenn" Subject: Re: Power crossfeed - mystery solved I think I would use a small setscrew and Loctite. Drill into the steel sleeve enough for the screw to have a good pocket to set in. Reason being, if you use a pin and it works loose it could go into the leadscrew and cause some serious damage. Sounds like somebody tried engaging both drives at the same time .. or the cross drive at the wrong time. Glenn ------- Date: Sat, 27 Nov 2004 15:39:47 -0600 From: Jon Elson Subject: Re: Re: Power crossfeed problem There is also a pin in a gear set above the miter gears. I think it is on the knob you pull to engage the feed. (I seem to remember the gear on the cross feed screw has a keyway.) So, that pin could be missing or sheared, or the key could be missing off the leadscrew. >>BTW, is the steel bushing okay or should it have been brass. At the speed this thing turns, I think it should be fine. The casting it turns is is either Zamak or cast iron. So, either should make a good bearing. Make sure there is a way for oil to get to the bearing, though. You can't weld, braze or solder Zamak (at least unless you are super- experienced at repairing zinc castings.) So, pins and epoxies are about your only choices. If there is sufficient meat in the bushing, then pinning it sounds good. Are you thinking of drilling centered on where the gear fits on the bushing, parallel to the leadscrew? That might be the strongest repair. Jon ------- Date: Tue, 07 Dec 2004 22:52:52 -0600 From: Jon Elson Subject: Re: 101 series headstock diagram? [atlas_craftsman group] tjbassix~xxoptonline.net wrote: >Jon, Thanks for the tip. I have to remove the spindle this weekend >to replace the belt, is the procedure as simple as removing the two top >caps and it's out? On the babbit bearing headstocks, that is all there is to it. There is a thrust bearing at the tail end of the spindle, and it may not slip back in without backing off the threaded collar at that end, if it was set with minimal clearance. other than that, just make sure you get the laminated shims back in the same position when you reassemble. It is a 2-minute job, unlike the procedure for the Timken bearing headstocks, where it is a major procedure. >I also assume from your message that there is no fore/aft adjustment >of the spindle as on Timken-equipped models. On babbit bearing spindles, there is a thrust bearing adjustment that is a bit similar. But, in most cases, a little slack in the thrust bearing is no problem. >In another post, you mentined swapping headstocks. On lathes such as >the South Bend 9's, you cannot *easily* swap headstocks/tailstocks >because of the centerline difference between finished castings. To prove >this, I visited a friend's machine shop where they have 3 SB model A's. >We took the tailstocks and moved them between the machines, noting a >difference of better than .100 on two. Is the Atlas/Craftsman constructed >in a manner that allows for better parts swapping? Yes. All beds were ground on the same custom bed grinding machine. My measurements of a few Atlas beds all showed up as being within .001" of each other. It is much easier to keep the rectangular ways of the Atlas design within VERY tight tolerance in production. All you need is a standard micrometer set. I pulled the wrecked babbit headstock off my lathe (after making some driving discs to be used with a gear puller for the Timken headstock.) After installing new bearings on the Timken headstock, I put it on the machine, and made a few measurements. I found the spindle was absolutely parallel to the bed within the measurement capability of a tenth-reading dial test indicator. Wow - that was sure an improvement, as I always fought with the (badly worn) babbit headstock to keep the spindle in line. The babbit bearings were align-bored with a custom line boring tool on the actual lathe bed, after the headstock was mounted to the casting. As far as I can tell, once they switched to Timken bearings, they line-bored the headstocks on some fixture, and then mounted them to the bed, without further alignment procedures on the bed. It sure worked fine on my machine. Jon ------- Date: Wed, 08 Dec 2004 00:02:24 -0500 From: Tom Bassi Subject: Re: 101 series headstock diagram? Jon, thanks again for your comments. On the subject of swapping headstocks, how did the tailstock line up with your headstock? Do they all line up? Someone told me, and I dont know that its absolutely true, that at the South Bend factory they picked out a bed, put a headstock on it (any headstock), and used that headstock to bore the tailstock casting. After that, all three parts were considered married. Only reason I keep bringing up the South Bend subject is I once had a nightmare of a time with a machine that was cobbled together from several others...nothing lined up. Putting my ducks in a row, if/when my babbet headstock needs replacement, I'd certainly try to find a Timken unit but want to avoid the disaster of mismatched parts again. BTW...I had a 6" Timken machine but sold it..... never should have done that :( Tom ------- Date: Wed, 08 Dec 2004 12:20:06 -0600 From: Jon Elson Subject: Re: 101 series headstock diagram? Atlas lathes are not hand fitted, like SB and many others. There is not a hand-scraped part anywhere in it. They grind the bed to very close tolerance, and the only fitting that I know of was the use of the babbit alighn reaming machine. > Only reason I keep bringing up the South Bend subject Well, that is not how Atlas did things. Which is not to say that SB was wrong to perform that work, but that it did make it difficult to interchange major components. The Atlas parts are VERY interchangeable. I never had any trouble with it, and a number of people I've exchanged messages with over the years have done the same, with no alignment problems. And, yes, in their heyday, SB DID do a lot of hand scraping on their lathes to bring everything into alignement. It almost certainly produced a finer and longer-lasting machine, at much increased cost. Jon ------- Date: Sun, 26 Dec 2004 00:11:31 -0600 From: Jon Elson Subject: Re: Way wipers questions Rex Burkheimer wrote: >Working on a 10-F TH54. >I'm getting down to the details as I finish this project. I need to cut >new way wipers and install. Hard to tell from the parts lists how they go >together. Looks like the rubber wiper goes against the casting and works >as a squeegee against the ways. Yup, that's how the instructions say to install it. It seems backwards, like the squeegee action would prevent oil from reaching under the casting. >Next comes the felts, which act as an oil wick. I presume these also >should touch the ways. Are they exactly the same size as the rubber pieces? Yes, I believe so. They both are cut a hair too big, so they are compressed slightly onto the ways. Got a new set from Clausing Service Center years ago. >Lastly come the sheet-metal covers, attached with screws which are >missing. Does anyone know off-hand what thread those screws are? I believe they may be 8-32. They are certainly a standard thread. Jon ------- Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2005 16:12:33 EST From: catboat15x~xxaol.com Subject: Re: Power cross feed > except the power cross feed There should be a gear with an internal key that engages the groove that is milled the length of the lead screw. It sounds as if someone in the past has tried to engage both feeds at the same time which means that something has to give way. Take the apron off again and see if there is a gear that is on the lead screw (As I remember it is a bevel gear on my lathe). This gear turns all the time along with the lead screw and when you engage the power cross feed that set of gears is placed into engagment to drive the cross feed leadscrew. The half nuts have nothing to do with this and both feeds should never be engaged at the same time. If that gear is there but has had the key sheared off perhaps you could replace the key with a new one, or as some are molded in place keys you could cut a keyway in the gear and add a new key securing the new key in place. (solder? epoxy? friction?) ------- Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2005 17:22:35 -0500 From: "Ronald Ruben" Subject: RE: Power cross feed I am afraid I just confirmed your diagnosis. I just came in from my shop to check e-mail after first removing the apron. I sat there and studied it and soon realized there had to be some means (other than the half nuts) to drive the cross drive when engaged. I removed the mitre gear (10F-82A) from the inside of a bushing where the lead screw passes through and there is no engagement key to drive the cross drive. Thanks... Ron ------- Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2005 21:37:05 EST From: anthrhodesx~xxaol.com Subject: Re: Power cross feed > cut a keyway in the gear and add a new key securing the new key > in place. (solder? epoxy? friction?) >> This is the way South Bend does it, a loose key. On the 9" and 10K I believe it's held in position by a pin going through the gear into the key. On the 10L and larger lathes the key is a little longer than the gear and is bent up on both. Both of these methods prevent the key from sliding out of the gear when the leadscrew is inserted. In my opinion either of these solutions is far superior to the method used by Atlas. Anthony Berkeley, Calif. ------- Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2005 21:59:21 -0600 From: "jerdal" Subject: Re: Re: Power cross feed > I posted some photos of the gear including one showing the end and > missing keyy... Suggestions welcomed!!!! I may have a potential > replacement but plan to fabricate a backup using the old mitre gear. Sure looks like the key was molded in zamac, so that the steel shell is just a bearing. In that case, I dunno. If you cut a groove in the zamac for a key, you may just mess it up. Depends on how deep the zamac is, and if it is zamac on the inside as it looks in the photo. I'd be tempted to make another miter gear complete with steel sleeve, and then attach a key to it. Don't laugh, I made two on a shaper to repair the stroke adjustment. The miter gears for that had a severe dental problem. JT ------- NOTE TO FILE: Also see "Power crossfeed problem" starting 26 Nov 04 above. ------- Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 18:25:36 -0000 From: "rpm2290028" Subject: Backlash problems 101.07403 Recently I've been chasing tenths, and discovered that my AC 07403 could not improve an out-of round workpiece, but merely followed the existing contours. I realised that the excess backlash/wear in the cross-slide screw was allowing the tool to float. I tightened the gibs, which improved the situation a little, but eventually i had to spring for a new screw from Clausing, which by the way are cheaper now than they were before. After carefully installing the new screw and brass nut, all was well, but then the problem began to re-appear, and I could actually move the toolpost slightly forwards and backwards by hand. I discovered that the culprit, as was mentioned a couple of weeks ago, was the 1/4-20 bolt holding the brass nut to the slide. Simple, I thought, i'll just put some Loctite on it and solve this problem. Come to find that the bolt, which is the official bolt for this task, according to the parts diagram, is only 1/4" long! With the 1/8" recess in the top, it means that all that strain (think cutting-off) was being held by only two threads of this bolt, no wonder it would work loose. I've changed it out for a decent 1/2" hex bolt and washer, plus Loctite, and it has behaved impeccably ever since. A small, cheap, easy improvement on the original design, which will save hours of frustration. Good luck! Richard in Los Angeles ------- Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 01:58:53 -0000 From: "carbure2003" Subject: levelling and aligning my lathe craftsman 101.28990 Hello everybody. For the first time in five years, my lathe is set up like I wanted. I spent a lot of time installing the lathe in a corner in my basement. I have a Craftsman 101.28990 that I bought in 1990 and is still in very good condition. In 1997 I had to get the bed re-ground after water damage caused by a burst pipe. At the same time, I got two holes drilled and tapped 1/4 NC 20 in the bed at the left end of the headstock end, as I knew it would be a nightmare to re-align. There was some very minor play on the left end of the headstock end. The screws have been very useful to help me lining up the headstock. I moved twice, and after every move I had to spend time re-aligning the lathe. I levelled my lathe at first with a Starrett No 98 level. Once levelled at one end, I levelled the bed in the longitudinal way, and then at the other end. I found out that the bed was slightly warped, but the defect was corrected in the levelling process. I finished the levelling with a Chinese made master precision level (BusyBee Tools). The level is said to be 0.0002 in. per 10 in. (about $65 Cdn on sale) None the less, it is extremely sensitive. I achieved a very good result by shimming the bed by 0.001 at a time. The next fun part was the alignment. Tools used: - a dial indicator sensitive to 0.0001 in - a good micrometer sensitive to 0.0001 in - Jacobs headstock chuck to hold a piece of colled rolled steel - a piece of 5/8" dia colled rolled steel - scientific calculator I chucked a 5/8" dia steel rod in the Jacobs headstock chuck. The Jacobs headstock chuck extends a few inches away from the bearings. The piece of steel was out by at least 2.5 in, giving a total distance between the right headstock bearing and the end of the rod of about 7 inches. I took a shaving cut on the piece of steel at 1000 rpm and a very fine feed, using a brand new carbide insert. I measured the difference in diameter and made angles calculations. Using the distance between the right headstock bearing and the end of the piece of steel, I calculated the displacement that I required to measure at the end of the steel rod with the dial indicator. I loosened the two allen cap screw that hold the headstock at the left end of the bed, and moved the headstock sideways, using my two adjustment set screws, checking the displacement at the end of my steel rod with the dial gauge. I tightened the cap screws and re-started the cycle over again. It took four cycles to get the headstock perfectly aligned. When I say perfectly aligned, it is that I cannot measure an error in diameter on the piece of steel machined over a length of more than 2 inches. It took about 2 hours all together to align the lathe. The 0.0001 inch dial gauge is essential in this process. (picked up on ebay for $18.00 US) The lathe is performing extremely well. Last weekend, I was machining special screws 2NC 56 that were 3/4 in. long. Even on such small diameter, I was able to machine a real cylinder, without having the stock held with a centre. Moral of this story: the time spent in the levelling process and alignment is never wasted. Aligning a lathe can be achieved with home shop tools. Next work to be done: minor adjustment on the interface between the tailstock castings in order to correct a minor tailstock problem. I hope this procedure can help people with alignment problems. Good luck. Guy Cadrin Gatineau, QC Canada ------- Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 00:54:50 -0000 From: "sr71_bb2001" Subject: Silver Soldering a Mitre Gear Key in place (Newbie) OK, I am making progress on getting my ATLAS 10x24 operating. I had a mitre gear with a broken key that goes into the lead screw to power the cross drive. So I secured a replacement mitre with a keyway already cut in the metal (common problem apparently) and I milled, from keyway stock a new key (1 3/4"L x 1/8"W x 3/16"H which was my first milling attempt and is going great thanks to fellow forum member Rex Burkheimer and his patient assistance). Now HOW do I affix the key in the gear? I have read tons of material on soldering, can I use plumbing solder? If, as I suspect not, is silver solder OK?, and the big question is what constitutes silver solder? I have silver bearing solder? or should I buy silver solder rods? The mitre gear will be driven by the ATLAS lead screw. I am unable thus far to find a product called silver solder other than silver solder rods. Is plumbers' solder ok??? Or metal, non- electrical solder? Silver bearing solder?? I have a mapp torch is that too hot? Am I making this overly complicated?? Questions, questions.. answers are the tough part.. I appreciate any assistance that you can muster up!!! I don't want to start searching for another replacement mitre gear (or worse)... Ron ------- Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2005 17:04:50 -0800 From: John R.Sandhagen Subject: Re: Silver Soldering a Mitre Gear Key in place (Newbie) real silver solder works when the copper is glowing...and is almost as strong as the copper itself. Brazing rod (more or less the same thing) may be more available. Not familiar with Miter gear but do not attempt on zamak...cast or steel is fine. Silver bearing solder (with tin) is a poor substitute for lead tin solder but neither will hold cast/steel well. ------- Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2005 21:10:58 EST From: GusVaBchx~xxAOL.com Subject: Re: Silver Soldering a Mitre Gear Key in place (Newbie) Silver solder has grades I-VII. The higher the grade the higher the silver content and lower melting point with a lower strength. Grade VII melts around 700 degrees if memory serves me right (cob webs starting to grow, lol). I don't know about using a Mapp gas torch for melting the silver solder. The only way i know of is oxy-acetylene. I hope this helps. Gus Lint HT1(SW) USN Retired ------- Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2005 23:35:29 -0600 From: "jerdal" Subject: Re: Silver Soldering a Mitre Gear Key in place (Newbie) I've been silver soldering for years with various propane torches and even a small butane torch. They all get the work red hot, which is what you need to be able to do. The hotter the torch the less of teh part you need to heat, but the more careful you have to be to not overheat. Oxy-acetylene may do the job, but you gotta be pretty careful not to melt the work. JT ------- Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2005 22:48:28 -0600 From: Jon Elson Subject: Re: Silver Soldering a Mitre Gear Key in place (Newbie) You MIGHT be able to use 60-40 solder, as its melting point is 360-370F. Much higher than that, and you guarantee melting the gear, which I'm pretty sure is Zamak (Zinc die cast alloy). Tin-Silver solder has a 430F melting point. Most Zinc-Aluminum alloys have a melting point around 700F. If you are real good at soldering large items with a torch, you could do this. But, temperature control is going to be VERY important. > Am I making this overly complicated?? No. If you melt that gear, you are going to be VERY sorry, and it will happen in an instant when it gets too hot. Wait a minute! You have a gear WITH a keyway in it? You don't have to solder the key into the slot. All you have to do is make sure the key FOLLOWS the gear. If you made the key longer than the gear, and had "ears" that stuck up, out of the leadscrew slot on each side of the gear, then the gear would pull the key by the ears as it moved along the leadscrew. This sounds a lot safer than trying to solder to Zamak. Jon ------- Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 11:13:28 EST From: catboat15x~xxaol.com Subject: Re: Soldering a key in the cross slide gear Don't use silver solder until you check the material of that gear. Atlas used a lot of zamac parts for gears and you are liable to melt the gear to a blob of copper, zinc, tin alloy. I would sure be tempted to clean up everything well and try something like JB Weld (an epoxy with steel filler) to hold things in place. "silver solder" is a poor name for what is really "Silver brazing alloy". If you can melt it with a soldering iron it ain't the silver solder we talk about. By memory I think the dividing line is 800 deg F between solder and brazing alloys. A bit of history, when people got concerned about their copper water lines, laws were passed about using lead bearing solders such as the lead/tin alloys plumbers, electricians etc used. So solder makers started using other alloys and some contained a small amount of silver and as a marketing ploy started calling "Silver solder" or "Silver bearing solder". (I don't know if what the plumbers use now contains cadmium, which is more toxic than lead and for many years has been forbidden on food handling equipment.) On your problem I think the best way would be to contact Clausing by telephone and see if you can buy a new gear with the key already in the gear. I think breaking this gear is fairly common. If anyone has tried to engage both the power cross feed at the same time the half nuts are engaged, something is going to break (or turn a really steep taper). John Meacham in the high desert of California ------- Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 10:42:16 -0800 From: Frank Perdicaro Subject: Keyways and gears A few months back I had to put a new key in. Using commercial key stock, a new key was made. I used JBWeld to put the key in place. The surface of the key was prepared by light sanding and very, very light punching. The slot was also lightly punched for a light press fit. Cover the parts with JBWeld; press together; trim off the excess after an hour or two. Use a razor, scriber, dental pick and file to get off all unwanted JBWeld. ------- Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2005 22:57:46 -0000 From: "kwells_nz" Subject: half-nut lever [atlas_craftsman] I've just become the proud owner of an Atlas Clausing 10100 6" lathe, handed down to me from my wife's late grandfather. It appears in pretty good condition, with just the expected grime and chips from good use. There is some surface rust on the ways and on one side of each of the chucks, but I'm sure this will come off with some kerosene and fine steel wool/scotchbrite. Like (I'm sure) most of the people in this group, my first point of order is to strip and clean the lathe - giving it a nice coat of epoxy paint at the same time. I've started by disassembling the carriage and I'm stuck at a point. The half-nut engagement lever seems to be peened onto the square head of the shaft. Being fairly new to metalwork (I've owned a mill-drill for about a year), I'm not sure of the correct procedure to remove this. Can anyone point me in the right direction? I figure I can always drill and tap the square shaft afterwards if needed to hold the lever on (instead of peening it back on). Regards, Kenneth Wells Wellington, New Zealand ------- Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2005 15:28:18 -0000 From: "azbruno" Subject: Re: 12x36 help "dewoodbutcher" wrote: > I seem to have a foul-up. I broke (re-broke dpo fix) the gear case on > the apron on my Atlas 12x36. I called Clausing, and lo and behold they > still have them. Same part number as the old manual I have! I paid > dearly to have a new one ($80+ dollars), but it doesn't really fit. > There are 2 holes for a roll pin and three slot/ holes for the > screws.The trouble is that (1) the holes for the roll pins don't line > up..(2) using the top hole, the screws can be used but apron binds on > rack, using the bottom holes no screw fits...(3) put on without any > roll pins and the gear binds when I tighten down the apron. After 3 hrs > fiddling, I have made it usable by slightly enlarging the holes, > eliminating the roll pins, and adding a washer spacer between the apron > and the saddle. It all seems to work but the driven cross feed is a > little loose (from the washers). Also the cross feed lever detent ball > has no spring, but seems to work ok. Am I headed for problems? Did I > Joey this thing up? I bought a 12x36 last month and it also had a broken gear case. The previous owner had bought the replacement part from Clausing but never installed it. When I got the lathe, the carriage was apart and the gear case removed. I've been slowly cleaning up the lathe, just got a replacement gear and was about to put it together. So after reading this, I went to check the new part against the old one (in three pieces). Sure enough, the two holes for the pins do not line up against the old one; haven't tried it on the carriage yet. I'm thinking I could fill the misplaced hole with JB Weld and redrill. I'd be interested to hear more about how you deal with it. -Bruno ------- Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2005 12:48:24 -0500 From: "earlharrell" Subject: Re: Re: 12x36 help Here is some info you might find useful on the apron of your atlas lathe. Because the gear case on the apron was a "stamped" part, the holes wern't exactly in the same place every time. A procedure called "matchdrilling" was used on every apron assembly. The gear case is clamped into place and used as a "template" to drill the holes into the apron, creating a perfect match for the alignment of the holes from the gearcase and the apron. Thus, the term "matchdrilling". The fix would be to plug the holes on the apron, clamp the gearcase to the apron, keeping alignment in mind, and then redrill the holes. A drillpress was originally used to complete this task many years ago. I hope you find this info useful. Skydoc_17 ------- Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2005 14:35:58 -0800 From: DG Subject: Re: Re: 12x36 help dewoodbutcher wrote: > As far as the roll pin holes, I have not yet gotten there yet. I like > the idea of JB Weld and redrill the case, or use some 1/8" welding rod > peened into the hole and redrill. My problem, however may be that the > top hole in the apron is drilled crooked. > Hope someone can give us some clues. Little A better way to go I think is to tap these holes with a bottoming tap and put a screw in there. I might go as far as to put lock-tite on the threads and then keep tightening the screw till the head breaks right off. Cut the remaining screw off flush and you're ready to redrill. Try it, it works great. Damien ------- Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 21:52:58 -0800 From: William Abernathy Subject: Backed-out nut on apron Recently I noticed a threaded fastener sticking out the front of my 10" Atlas's apron. On closer examination, I've determined it to be the shaft for a bevel gear in the cross-feed drive (or at least something that's mighty coaxial to it) with a 3/8 x 16 NC thread. There does not appear to be enough thread to accommodate a standard nut (maybe three thread widths' worth) and my efforts to affix a nut to it have proven futile, as the shaft turns freely before the fastener gets any "bite." With my finger lodged behind the apron, I can feel the shaft rotating freely as I tighten the nut. Questions: Does this shaft/screw take a standard fastener? Does it require a lock ("spring" or "split") washer or any other spacer? Is there any way of securing this without disassembling the apron? Is it safe to operate the lathe without this shaft secured? I only ask this last because I suspect I may well have operated the lathe for a while before noticing the "missing" fastener, and hey, who knows, maybe it's meant to float (he said, thinking wishfully). Thanks, William A ------- Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 11:01:22 -0500 From: Subject: Re: Backed-out nut on apron William, this may be the stud that holds the mitre gear to the apron. This part has been redesigned by Clausing (formerly Atlas). The redesign has a bushing inside the gear. This is what happened to me when I attempted to put a nut on the mitre gear stud/bolt on my 10F. The mitre gear could not rotate freely on the stud/bolt and as a result, the lead screw could not turn. This ended up damaging the gears in the reversing gear box. I guess at sometime in the past, Atlas lathe users discovered that over time, the mitre gear would start sticking to the stud/bolt and hanging up the lead screw. At the time there was no redesign on the mitre gear so the easy solution was to just remove the nut from the stud/gear and just let the stud spin with the mitre gear. I would advise you not to put a nut on the stud/gear. Buy the redesigned part from Clausing. The new gear is made of steel instead of Zamak which is a plus. Kent ------- Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2005 21:17:06 -0000 From: "azbruno" Subject: Adjusting cross slide gibs [atlas618lathe group] I just adjusted the cross slide gibs on my 101.21400 and wanted to share the technique I used. First, remove the gear guard and cross slide nut. This allows the cross slide to be manually slid forward and back, and eliminates the nut as a factor in the adjustment. Use a small screw driver for the gib screws and open end wrench for the lock nuts. It's also a good time to clean out the cavity around the cross slide screw, remove any other swarf and slap some way oil on the dovetail ways, so do that first. Back off all the gibs. I use the middle gib for a cross slide lock (with a thumb screw) so that was left loose. Adjust the front and back gibs while testing to eliminate any lateral movement at either end and assure that it will slide along the dovetail comfortably. When close on an adjustment, use both the screwdriver and wrench simultaneously. Get the screw close and then tighten down the nut. When you do that, the screw will tighten up a bit, so this needs to be repeated until it's OK. It's easy to see if you hold the screwdriver in the screw while tightening the nut. If it's too tight, loosen the nut and then loosen the screw in the nut. If too loose, loosen the nut and turn the screw tighter in the nut, then lock the nut tight. Repeat and test on each adjustment. When it feels just right, then put the cross slide nut and gear cover back on. Be sure to tighten the screw down as that keeps the nut from wiggling. First time I did this really improved the quality of the cuts. I now check it regularly. ------- Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2005 18:58:21 -0400 From: bepurr Subject: Re: Adjusting cross slide gibs Bruno, reading your adjusting method brings to mind a tool I used when I was doing field service work. An adaptation of this could be easily made and would make the adjusting procedure easier. I think I will make one. A short piece of rod with a hole drilled lengthwise that is a nice sliding fit of the small screwdriver. The end if the rod is filed square to fit snugly in a hex socket that fits the nut. A knurled collar is fastened to the other end of the rod to provide a grip when tightening the nut. In use, the screwdriver is slipped through the tube and the socket slipped onto the nut. The screwdriver stays slipped in the tube while manipulating the nut by rotating the knurled collar. Clear enough, I hope. Bryan P. (bepurr) ------- Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 19:38:10 -0500 From: Jon Elson Subject: Re: Bearing dust cover removal ... [atlas_craftsman] drifter1951 wrote: >Any suggestions on how to remove the rear bearing (Timkin) dust cover >on an Atlas 10F? I'm thinking maybe using a gear puller with the >fingers reversed ... any other suggestions? Umm, how about a pocket knife? These are just thin sheet metal, pressed in just enough to not fall out. At least, that's all they are on later lathes, and can easily be teased out of the casting. Jon ------- Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 06:30:14 -0000 From: "Robert Weersing" Subject: Re: Bearing dust cover removal ... Use a wooden dowel and gently tap it out with a hammer. Bob ------- Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2005 14:48:28 -0500 From: xlch58x~xxswbell.net Subject: Re: Re: Atlas Quadrent Gear Bracket. [atlas_craftsman] >--- In x~xxyahoogroups.com, "Bob Moorman" wrote: >>I broke the Quadrent bracket on my TH-54 yesterday. It is no longer >>available from Clausing. It is sometimes called a butterfly bracket. >>It is the bracket located on the left side of the lathe, that allows >>the changing of the gear in or out that drives the Quick Change Gear >>box. It has a handle & bolt that runs through it that allows loosing >>and readjusting the gear. There are three different part numbers, and >>I need the bracket with the 3/4" shaft hole. If anyone has one and >>will part with it, please let me know. Until then, I'm out of >>playthings in the shop. Thank you for any help you may provide. >>God Bless, Bob Moorman An Old Pipe Maker From Texas jdmichael2001 wrote: >I had mine break too (with a deadline looming as usually happens). A >local welder repaired it for me just fine. He was a little skeptical >at first, because he said some cast iron welds well and some doesn't, >but this worked just fine for him (and me). Jan M I have welded up busted parts on an Atlas Power Hacksaw before. I just arc welded it with special rod for cast iron. I veed it out along the cracks leaving only enough materials at base of v ( from both sides) for registration of the part. I then drilled a section of channel so that the part could be bolted down firmly, but raised above the channel with washers. I stuck the whole thing in the forge and heated to low red/orange color, then laid a bead on it. After the bead was on it I tapped it with my welding tomahawk as the color of the weld area dropped to match the rest of the part. Put it back in the forge and heated the whole thing again, repeating until it was completely filled in. When I was done I heated in forge one last time and then buried it in a drum of ashes I keep around for this sort of thing. Pulled it out of the ashes the next morning and ground it smooth. A little paint and it is as good as new. Brazing is also an option, but requires the same local preheating and slow cool down. Charles ------- Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2005 20:46:19 -0500 From: Jon Elson Subject: Re: Re: Atlas Quadrent Gear Bracket. You can also braze it with a propane torch. Because it is made of thin sections, you can actually braze it with very little risk of it breaking just beside the joint, because the stresses that build up in long repairs won't be present. Jon ------- Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2005 22:58:20 EDT From: n8as1x~xxaol.com Subject: Re: Re: Atlas Quadrent Gear Bracket. braze it. braze is as strong as cast iron, near foolproof...welding is tougher on the substrate & iffy, depending on welder experience & equip best wishes docn8as ------- Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2005 01:20:27 EDT From: n8as1x~xxaol.com Subject: Re: Re: Atlas Quadrent Gear Bracket. In a message dated 9/14/2005, xlch58x~xxswbell.net writes: > Weld or braze, given the size of the part, you are best off heating it > all up to at least 400-500 degrees, and letting it cool in ashes... > Charles agreed ...but u have a much better chance w/ braze if the above is NOT done , or carelessly so...i have brazed a fair amt of cast iron w/out pre heat ,but burying part in sand to cool..no failures that i know of ...c/shaft hanger on wards/logan broke in 5 pieces (lathe tipped) ..upon exam , the breaks had been previously welded( rather sorrily) cast iron joints & adjacent metal were plainly burnt . to the point that i scrapped it & milled/drilled/fit a logan 200 c/shaft hanger ...i have no doubt that a COMPETANT welder w/ proper rod ,peening & pre /post heating plus cooling in ashes can weld decent cast iron..,when u can FIND one .& i am not one !!...point is brazing is more forgiving ...using my lincoln 200 amp ac buzzbox, i am not overly proud of the appearance of my welds on steel.....they hold , but doing one-off jobs in a hurry to finish plowing /discing , i reckon i have one years experience 40 times rather than 40 years exp.....seem to be relearning each time .... best wishes docn8as ------- Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2005 13:55:54 EDT From: gto69ra4x~xxaol.com Subject: Re: Another new 10F and a few questions 9/14/2005, Lucas.Thompsonx~xxwatchguard.com writes: >>Hello group! Another newbie hoping to tap a little of all the great knowledge here. I just got a 10F TH42 s/n 037488 with a bunch of tooling, legs, iron chip tray, manual, etc and at Atlas/Clausing 12" 4800(?). Currently working on the lighter 10F, going to start the 4800 later. My goal is to get the 10F working well enough for use and learning. << You'll be happy when you go to the 4800. The Atlas is a hobbyist's lathe, the Clausing is a real machine tool. >>Removing the old caked dirty gummy oil on the ways and screws and stuff is coming along pretty well using kerosene, a small brass brush and 20wt non detergent oil. I'm trying to avoid disassembly as much as possible but have the machine be servicable. Worried about these things though: << Good, but I'd skip the oil and clean with straight kero. I'd also not try to avoid dissasembly. Nothing's going to jump out and eat you, and these things have to be torn down regularly for cleaning. It's important you really to get the works spotless. >> 1- The spindle is "sticky" feeling like with gummed up oil. Penetrating oil and 10wt oil have helped a little. I hesitate to disassemble the whole thing. << Just bite the bullet and take it apart. You can clean the bearings and inspect things while you're in there. Also clean out the backgear bearings and replace the belt while you're in there. This is a regular service procedure. Make sure you can do it so you're not stuck in an emergency. >>2- The little pinion gear that runs on the rack to move the saddle back and forth seems very loose and worn. Not sure if this is a problem or not. The rack looks pretty good. << It's not a precision feed. Lots of slop is normal. If it feels "flexy", you're gearbox casing might be cracked. >>3- The tailstock spindle(?) does not move in and out freely like it's binding in the main body casting in some places even after thorough cleaning . The tailstock screw seems fine, just the in-out movement on the spindle part. Thanks in advance. Lucas in Seattle << Take it out and have a look-see. One the screw pushes it most of the way out, the quill just pulls out. The little locating screw that goes into the quill keyway might be binding. John ------- Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2005 18:16:49 -0000 From: "Bob Moorman" Subject: Re: Another new 10F and a few questions Lucas, get a can of CRC Brakleen at most any auto parts house. It will clean all the oil and grease from your lathe. It will leave NO oil film, so be sure to apply a thin coating of oil, or you will have rust. The CRC is a great thing to have in the shop. ------- Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2005 00:51:02 -0700 From: "Bob May" Subject: Re: Another new 10F and a few questions For the spindle, the best is to pull the spindle and clean out all of the old lubricnt with good cleaners but you can run the stuff through the assembled spindle and eventually get most of it. The tailstock does need to be disassembled (not hard as there is only the screw on the backside to remove and then screw the thing apart. You may find swarf in there or sposs where the metal has been upset on the ram that need to be filed down or upset back to where the metal should be. Bob May http://nav.to/bobmay http://bobmay.astronomy.net ------- Date: Fri, 7 Oct 2005 09:48:33 -0700 From: Frank Perdicaro Subject: Re: Re: Lathe bed as motorcycle jig > I have a 54 inch Atlas but the end 6 inches of the bed > (tailstock side) have been damaged. My spare Atlas lathe bed is from my 48" 10F. It is worn quite a bit near where the headstock would mount. You do not need a straight edge or to feel it with your fingernail -- you can see it with bare eyes. I have not measured it. Due to a UPS shipping accident I had access to a free 54" bed from Sobel. Perhaps "bed kit" is a better description. I swapped out the 48 and put in a 54 because the 54 was in good shape, except the bed was actually broken into three pieces. The area near the tailstock end that holds the lead screw bracket was broken away. The big chunk was about the size of a packet of cigs. So I clamped the pieces up in my milling machine and welded the bed back together with my 120 volt MIG welder! The welding was not quite perfect, in fact I made sure the repair stuck up a bit and pointed in a bit. With the bed being bolted to the table of my mill, it was easy to use a fly cutter to get the top of the lathe bed pretty darn flat. Then I switched to a milling cutter to be sure the inside surface that locates the tailstock was good. So tailstock-area bed repair for 54" Atlas lathes is something I have experience with. Perhaps you should try it, as I am sure it can be done. ------- Date: Sat, 8 Oct 2005 21:30:16 -0700 (PDT) From: James Sterner Subject: Re: Gib strip for my Atlas 10F - Where to get one? Garrett Fell wrote:>>Hi all.... >>I am looking for a gib strip for the compound on my 10F. The one >>that I have now was horribly mis-treated by the previous owner. It >>was bent on one end by over-tightening the adjustment screw without >>the dovetail supporting it >>I've tried to straighten it by hammering it on a piece of flat- >>stock, then running it back and forth on a piece of sandpaper stuck >>to a sheet of glass. I've taken it pretty easy as far as the sanding >>goes because I don't want to distort it. >>It seems as if it's still a bit bent because things get really tight >>when I use the compound, and I can't get it adjusted right. Jon Elson wrote: > The fixed part of the slide may be worn unevenly. The bent gib could easily do that. The way to measure it is to use two dowel pins that are known to be straight and round. They should be about the same diameter as the dovetail part is high. You set them in the vee of the dovetail and read the distance across the two dowels with a good micrometer. (A dial or electronic caliper will work, but it isn't as accurate.) You take readings like this at both ends of the compound lower slide part. The readings should be the same, but I'll bet yours will not be the same. < >>Any ideas on how to make this thing parallel again? Anyone know >>where I can buy one that will fit? I've looked at stuff on ebay, >>but the prices there seem WAY out of line, and I can't tell if I'd >>be getting the gib anyway... > If the compound lower part is worn unevenly, it has to be scraped, ground or whatever you can do to restore it to parallel. Once you know the lower part is good, then .... If the gib is not touching all along its length (no surprise, since it was bent) you can try applying a marking dye like DyKem Hi-Spot to the lower dovetail, and then insert the gib in the upper slide with the screws out enough to hold it in place, and wipe the two together while holding light pressure against the gib side. This should leave a print in blue dye where the gib is actually touching the lower slide. File, scrape, lap or whatever the high spots and try again. Improving the contact area between the gib and the dovetail should help. Jon < My Shaper has steel gibs, (I checked with a magnet) I'm not too sure about the lathe though. You can make a new gib on a Shaper out of steel or brass. Held in a vice the long way a Shaper would have no trouble putting the necessary angles on the new gib. If the compound dove tail is out of whack, you can dial in the solid contact side on a milling machine table with a proper dove tail cutter. Then take only enough of a cut to get full contact on the dove tail with the cutter (cut on the gib side of the dove tail only). If you remove a lot of metal you can make the new gib a little fatter. To hand scrape to a nice fit one side is first brought to dead straight or flat first, with high spot blue and a good straight edge designed for that or a surface plate. Then the mating side is scraped to fit the straightened out side. I hope this helps some. Jim ------- Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2005 12:11:04 -0700 From: "Louis Balleweg" Subject: Re: Headstock cover removal [atlas618lathe] > I want to remove the headstock cover on my 618 but the two pins > in the rear that hold the cover on cannot be moved. Any help > on this would be appreciated. wendell They are a sort of tapered pin that can be driven out with a drift-pin or any rod that is smaller than the hole. They should be driven from the inside out. ------- Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2005 23:13:57 -0000 From: "llednew1938" Subject: Re: Headstock cover removal Thanks Lou a little more persuasion and they came out. wendell ------- Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2005 15:10:13 -0700 From: "keith green" Subject: Re: Headstock cover removal If they can't be gotten at from the back, tap the top and pull them with a slide hammer. I've also made a puller from an adequately-sized nut. You drill a hole through one of the 6 faces of the nut that is a clearance fit for the size of screw you tapped into the pin. Cut the nut in half so you have two u-shaped sections. Stand the u-shape over the pin with a leg on each side, thread in your puller-bolt and tighten until it pulls the pin. This doesn't always work when the pin is very tight (the nut-half will collapse and flatten out). Keith ------- Date: Sat, 05 Nov 2005 21:23:54 -0600 From: Jon Elson Subject: Re: Aw Crap....did I break my tailstock? joegourlay wrote: >I have a live center in my tailstock. I did as the manual instructed >and turned the wheel counterclockwise to bottom it out. It should >have, but did not, eject the center. This is a common problem. Many live centers are too short for the end of the leadscrew to eject them. Many have a screw that plugs the grease port on the back. You can use a longer screw with a spacer to make the center long enough to eject properly. >Instead, the ram just rotates in the casting. Turning the wheel >clockwise will no longer extend the ram. What do I do? When you turn the handle, does the tailstock ram also rotate? If so, if you can get something to grip it with and keep it from rotating, it will come back out. There should be a small screw just below the ram that rides the keyway in the ram. If the ram has retracted past that screw, then it no longer keys the ram. If the screw has broken off, you may need to file the threads off 1/8" or so of a similar screw to make a new keying screw. That's a pretty common repair on the Atlas, too. Once you get the ram moving again, you can just wind it all the way out, and use a rod down the middle to tap the center loose. Jon ------- Date: Sun, 06 Nov 2005 16:42:04 -0000 From: "joegourlay" Subject: Re: Aw Crap....did I break my tailstock? Jon, you were right on the money! I'm back up, thanks! I ended disassembling the whole take stock last night, cleaning, degreasing, and re-oiling everything. Fun. ------- Date: Mon, 07 Nov 2005 13:45:27 -0500 From: bepurr Subject: Re: Aw Crap...did I break my tailstock The problem was caused by the fallen-out setscrew in the tailstock casting. My parts lists shows this is a 'dog-point' setscrew (dog- point means there are no threads near the end). The use of a setscrew for this purpose is to my mind a design flaw. The setscrew engages the keyway in in the tailstock ram. There is precious little bearing surface between the setscrew and the keyway. I was putting a rather heavy tortional load on this when doing some heavy duty end drilling which I found was not doing the keyway any good. My solution was to find a rivet which was a nice fit in the setscrew hole and file the head into an oblong shape, the sides of which to be a nice fit in the keyway. Removing the ram and fitting the rivet into the setscrew hole from the inside of the tailstock casting and reinstalling the ram with the rivet head in the keyway gives a much, much larger bearing surface. Also the rivet does not fall out and get lost. A neat and easy solution which Atlas should have thought of. Bryan P. (bepurr) My aim in life is to be the kind of person my Atlas wants me to be. ------- Date: Sun, 04 Dec 2005 13:20:30 -0000 From: "nevillec222" Subject: Re: Drive gears for Atlas Horizontal Mill, MFC [atlas_craftsman] In atlas_craftsman, "Jerald Ware" wrote: > I recently bought a Hor, MFC and I need both gears for the table feed > assembly, #M6-101-64. The teeth are in bad shape. > What DP and cutter(S) should I be looking for? I know I can buy those > gears from Clausing at $39 each but I'd rather cut them, unless > someone is offering them for a lot less. > What material should they be cut from? > Is there a reason why the mill uses two gears instead of one thick > one? I imagine improper engagement to be the cause of the damage? > Being unfamiliar with these bench top machines; I also bought an Atlas > shaper, what should I be careful to not do...other than screw them > up!-Thanks, Jerald The gear cutter U require is a #2 (55 to 134 teeth) 14.5 pressure angle and a DP of 24. I would suggest the cutter have a bore size of 7/8" or 1" if U intend to use your MFC mill. The extra gear on the MFC is a spare!! Material for the gear can be Phosphor Bronze (Known as "roto-cast"), Delrin, Brass, or a basic Low carbon steel such as SAE1020. Good luck !! ------- Date: Mon, 05 Dec 2005 03:01:33 -0000 From: "kc5ezc" Subject: Re: Drive gears for Atlas Horizontal Mill, MFC Jerald: I think there are two gears side by side because it takes the width of two gears to cover the various feeds in the 'Change-O- Matic' gear box. Two, because I believe a single gear is used on an exsisting Atlas lathe. Can't remember which model. Not sure of the material but probably ZAMAK. Hope that helps. John Burchett in Byng OK ------- Date: Mon, 05 Dec 2005 19:06:30 -0000 From: "nevillec222" Subject: Re: Drive gears for Atlas Horizontal Mill, MFC Correction to my last message, with regard to the use of two 64 gear on the MFC mill, two gears are needed to safely engage the other change gears of the change-0-matic system, although only one is in engagement at a time. Damage was probably done when the mill was not stopped to change the feed rate. The metal used by Atlas is called "Zamac" and is quite fragile especially when used for gears, and is easily damaged. ------- Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2005 18:26:16 -0800 From: Michael Fagan Subject: Re: 4 step countershaft pulley question [atlas_craftsman] On 12/5/05, amsvette wrote: > Hey, has anyone ever removed the 4 step pulley on the countershaft > assembly on a 12" Craftsman lathe? The pulley on my lathe is chipped, > so I bought another countershaft assembly for the pulley. I have the > set screw out, but it will not budge. I don't feel another set screw > in the hole, so I assume it's just stuck. I hate to bring out the > inforcer hammer, but I don't have a press to try that route. Any > suggestions would be appreciated. Thanks, Adam Try Liquid Wrench, squirted liberally on the shaft and in the setscrew hole. I haven't removed the countershaft pulley on my 12" Craftsman yet, but I did have to remove an almost identical pulley on a vertical drill press. It turned out to be more or less a press fit, but it was on the motor shaft and I didn't want to ruin anything. Took three days to work the bugger off the shaft. Only 5 minutes to hammer it back on, though. ------- Date: Mon, 09 Jan 2006 21:47:14 -0000 From: "gino_kerekes" Subject: Re: Atlas 10-F Backgear >> I have recently aquired an Atlas 10-F lathe which appears to be in >> fair condition. I noticed when engaging the 'back gear', the gears >> almost immediately get thrown out of mesh, almost as if I'm missing >> some sort of friction device keeping them in postion. Any ideas much >> appreciated, Gino. > There are wavy spring washers on either end of the shaft. You can > tighten them by moving the metal collars (secured with setscrews) > closer to the mounting brackets. GTO(John) Thanks John, that would make sense to me. I'm currently missing the collar and the wavy washers, have to make a collar I guess and source the washers. Gino ------- Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 08:35:26 -0500 (GMT-05:00) From: Steve Subject: Re: Digest Number 2589But actual thread subject is Re: Atlas 10-F Backgear [atlas_craftsman] Gino, I asked this same question about two weeks ago, and it was the collar, wavy washer thing. Loosened the setscrews, moved the collars out against the washers and tightened the setscrews. No more problem. Your later post indicates that you might not have them, so you will need to buy or make them. The collars would be easy to make, but you will probably have to buy the springs. Do not use something like a split washer. The washer is a thin spring steel washer that is bent (on my 12x36 it's part number 10-167 and the collar is 10-253). Steve ------- Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2006 21:50:14 -0600 From: Jon Elson Subject: Re: Adjusting carriage Steve wrote: > I have a 1952 12x36 101.27440, and I was looking at the carriage to tighten everything up. I can see all the adjustment screws for the gibs on the rear of the carriage, and on the cross slide and compound. Under the front and rear of the carriage are plates that hold the carriage down. There does not appear to be an adjustment. Are these adjustable, and if so, how? < There are shims under the plates. They are laminated, so you peel off layers as needed. Usually, the thinnest lamination is .004", so I use one or two layers of home aluminum foil to make finer adjustments. The home foil is about .0015" thick. Be careful when working with these shims, as they will wrinkle up like accordion pleats if they get caught in the screw threads. > Also, what would be the best way to measure for play to see if I even need to do anything to adjust it? < If you have one, a dial indicator held by a magnetic stand on the bed way is very good for this type of measurement. Just measure how much you can lift up on the carriage. Jon ------- Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2006 22:55:41 EST From: gto69ra4x~xxaol.com Subject: Re: Adjusting carriage I just would like to mention here that even from the factory they had quite a bit of vertical movement. My Atlas was almost never used and it's there. Not terribly critical, since cutting forces should plant it down on the bed. GTO(John) ------- Date: Sat, 14 Jan 2006 16:44:45 -0600 From: Jon Elson Subject: Re: Adjusting carriage When applying very hard infeed force, as when using a cutoff tool, the force of the cross slide can lift the back of the carriage off the bed. This sets up the perfect condition for a bind-up. I shimmed mine so that it couldn't lift more than about one thousandth of an inch. Jon ------- Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2006 19:37:40 EST From: gto69ra4x~xxaol.com Subject: Re: Carriage/ bed wiper material? [atlas_craftsman] 1/17/2006, drifter1951x~xxyahoo.com writes: >What's a good material to use to replace the felt in the carriage/bed >wipers? Mine are so soaked with old oil they are stiff and brittle... Also felt, surprisingly enough. You can get it in different weights and thicknesses from industrial suppliers. Use only pure wool felt, not the synthetic stuff sold in craft stores. Check out a piano repair shop and ask about scrap cuttings they have. I haven't done this, but a guy I talked to ended up with a bag so big he could barely fit it in the car. GTO(John) ------- Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2006 11:29:31 -0600 From: Jon Elson Subject: Re: Counter shaft oiling , [atlas_craftsman] Michael Fagan wrote: >The oil cups on the countershaft are hidden behind the pulley, in the >bearing pillow block itself. You need an oiler with a long, preferably >flexible shaft. I had to drizzle mine in from above the pulley. My 12" Craftsman had big holes in the large pulley. I could reach in with the standard spout pump oiler and flip the cap on the oil cup and put the oil in there. It took a little skill to do it easily, but I didn't have to make anything or disassemble the covers. Jon ------- Date: Thu, 2 Feb 2006 17:34:08 -0800 From: "Catdesign" Subject: Help Removing Woodruff Key I am trying to remove the rear woodruff key on the spindle (number 9 on the parts list) of my Atlas 10F. I grabbed it with pliers but no good, soaked it in cleaner, no results tried to pry it out no luck. Any suggestions? Wish I had a can of liquid nitrogen. Chris Sacramento, Ca ------- Date: Thu, 2 Feb 2006 21:51:08 -0800 From: Michael Fagan Subject: Re: Help Removing Woodruff Key Also, what kind of pliers are you using? There is a kind of pliers known as running jaw or flat jaw pliers specifically designed for gripping flat stock. The difference is that the jaws move parallel to each other to grip along their whole length and not just at the tips. The jaws are also wider than normal. I use these frequently for pulling out chunks of keystock. Regular long-nose pliers will just slip off. ------- Date: Fri, 03 Feb 2006 05:24:32 -0000 From: "KDSpriggs" Subject: Re: Help Removing Woodruff Key Take a piece of brass rod and tap gently on top of the key first on one end then the other. They will generally "roll out". ------- Date: Sat, 4 Feb 2006 00:22:50 -0800 From: "Catdesign" Subject: Re:Re: Help Removing Woodruff Key Thanks all, I got the key out tonight by tapping on the end with a piece of wood and a hammer. And yes, my long nosed pliers did slip off. The spindle came out with the front bearings still attached, which I gather is quite common. This is the last bit of my complete teardown, clean and assemble. Hoping to start assembling next week so I can finally use this lathe. Thanks Chris Sacramento, Ca ------- Date: Fri, 17 Feb 2006 05:47:39 -0000 From: "lkasdorf" Subject: 101.07403 falls out of back gear- help!! [atlas_craftsman] I have this nice old 101.07403 that I am prepping for sale. I cleaned it up and it runs fine, except that it falls out of back gear! To enter back gear, I loosen the lock pin on the spindle and bring the back gear lever forward, causing the eccentric to engage the low speed gearing. This is all fine, except that there is enough unevenness in the gears that a slight oscillation is set up. The back gear lever works is way back to the point where it is out of back gear. It pops out after only about a second. The back gear lever moves very easily- maybe I need to introduce some drag here?? Anybody see this problem and have a solution? Gracias LK ------- Date: Fri, 17 Feb 2006 01:48:56 -0500 From: "earlharrell" Subject: Re: 101.07403 falls out of back gear- help!! Hi LK, I have a very old 10x42 Atlas lathe that has seen many years of use and I too have the same problem. My fix was to hook a thick rubber band on the lever that engages the back gears. I then hook the other end of the rubber band to the oiler cup on the front spindle bearing. It ain't pretty, but it works like a champ! Hope this helps. Skydoc_17 ------- Date: Fri, 17 Feb 2006 08:13:34 -0500 (GMT-05:00) From: Steve Subject: re: 101.07403 falls out of back gear- help!! LK, I had the same problem. On mine (12x36 101.27440) there are two collars attached with setscrews on either end. They are held in place with setscrews. Loosen up the screws and push them outward pressing against the wavy spring washer, then re-tighten. That did it for me. Steve ------- Date: Sat, 18 Feb 2006 09:58:24 -0500 From: "Jim Brewer" Subject: Re: Re: 101.07403 falls out of back gear- help!! I had to add shims to mine. I got my lathe all apart and did not know that there were shims (711-001 or 711-002) at all. Mine just made a little noise, had an oscillation and jumped out of gear when running in reverse mainly. good Luck JIM ------- Date: Tue, 21 Feb 2006 14:58:28 -0000 From: "jdmichael2001" Subject: Re: TH-54 Quadrant Bracket [atlas_craftsman] "Bob Moorman" wrote: > I still and in dire need of the quadrant bracket for my TH-54. Bob: Mine broke a couple years ago and I had a local weld shop repair it. It must have had several cracks for a period of time and finally gave way altogether. The repair has held up fine since then. Jan ------- Date: Tue, 21 Feb 2006 13:36:41 -0600 (Central Standard Time) From: "Bob Moorman" Subject: Re: Re: TH-54 Quadrant Bracket Bob Moorman wrote: > This one has also been re-welded. Broke at the same place. Richard Schaal wrote: > Maybe you should have the repair done by someone who knows > what he's doing? I'm tempted to let that pass, but how can you tell if a welder, in a first class, multi-million dollar shop, is a good welder or not, until you try his work. This was not done by some fly by night shop, but one that does millions of dollars of work for industry and the federal government. I expected it to hold. But then, I am the one who over tightened the nut on the end of the feed screw, not him. Something had to give. I'm not going to blame him for my stupidity. Bob Moorman ------- Date: Tue, 21 Feb 2006 14:49:21 EST From: LouD31M066x~xxaol.com Subject: Re: Re: TH-54 Quadrant Bracket Go to a machinist with broken parts, piece of stock and ask if it can be duplicated...presto...new bracket in steel not brittle welded casting. Better yet make a drawing and step up to milling machine yourself...milling machine and rotary table should do the trick in a few hours...if first one does not work use it as guide to avoid mistakes in making second one. Louis ------- Date: Tue, 21 Feb 2006 17:40:00 EST From: LouD31M066x~xxaol.com Subject: Re: Re: TH-54 Quadrant Bracket Richard Schaal wrote: > I've been a good enough student of this group to know that if you make > a replacement part on the Atlas that is too much stronger than the > original, you'll probably break a costlier part next time. Yes, there is that to consider. I do not think this is a meant-to-fail, before something expensive breaks, type of part. Casting is an economical method of achieving a near net shape so as to reduce the amount of expensive machining to a minimum. Iron is a low cost material that foundry(s) and foundry workers have used for centuries to cast just about anything you can name and lots of things we can't. That said, it is not the only method nor iron the only material suitable. Steel, aluminum, brass, bronze whatever metal comes to hand as stock can do the job... some plastics and some plywood might serve if nought else turns up. If this were (say) 1956 a letter with a return stamped self addressed envelope giving make, model; and serial number would obtain the current reasonable low price of a genuine factory replacement part...long distance phone calls way too expensive then for anything but very important phone calls. Now the call is cheap but the parts may be No Longer Available. Do you let the lathe rust or do you try to make the needed bracket using skills, machine and materials at hand? Not every part is worth duplicating. If this bracket were easily found and reasonably priced that would be way to go. If this necessary part is hard to get and too expensive you either make a part or part out a lathe. That is my take on it...probably others have equally valid views which differ. Louis ------- Date: Tue, 21 Feb 2006 19:18:04 -0600 (Central Standard Time) From: "Bob Moorman" Subject: Re: Re: TH-54 Quadrant Bracket Bob May wrote: > My question is: How do you break a banjo? Those things really don't take > any high forces so they should last forever. I would more imagine that > they'd wear out from making adjustments over a small range of the slots. The first time I let the tool dig into the work which jammed the feed screw and the bracket broke. The second time was just a stupid mistake on my part. I was putting the end support on the feed screw and tightened the tension nut way too tight. I was taught to tighten all nuts tight, and then one more for Uncle Joe. That's from over 50 years ago. I forgot for a second it was a TENSION nut, not a support or structure nut. I remembered just as I hit the 240 volt power switch, and heard all the noise as the bracket broke again. Now for an old fellow who has never made a mistake in his life, erhuff, cough-cough, it was an amazing moment. I remembered words I had learned on the flight line back in the 50's. I'm glad the little lady was in the house and not out in the shop wood working. Lye soap tastes horrible let me tell you. Yes, I know. No, I do not wear the pants in my household. I learned many, many years ago to say "Yes Dear" and keep my mouth shut. Now if I think I'll try milling a new part as I said earlier, but am somewhat worried making it from steel, so will use aluminum. That probably makes no sense either, but it should get me a dozen or more replies. Bob Moorman ------- Date: Sun, 26 Feb 2006 04:22:20 -0000 From: "dawntredereding" Subject: Rusted Spot On Bedway [atlas618lathe] I've recently inherited my dad's 618/02400 that's been sitting in a corner of his garage unused for over 30 years. It's in pretty poor cosmetic shape and was under years of dust and grime. I've been cleaning it up and surprisingly it's not in that bad of shape. Besides all of the chrome blistered on the hand wheels and other chrome parts, just light rust. So far all has cleaned up fairly well with mineral spirits and steel wool. however there is one 2" rusted spot about 8" from the tailstock side on one of the ways. It looks like some sort of corrosive chemical had been splashed or dripped on the spot many years ago leaving a white patch. During the cleaning, I found a flowered rust spot underneath. The cross slide moves very smoothly up to this point.What would be recommended to do at this stage? It would appear that grinding/scraping would be necessary. Would the entire bed have to be trued and the cross slide refitted for just this single spot? dwt ------- Date: Mon, 27 Feb 2006 09:50:14 -0500 From: "S or J" Subject: Re: Rusted Spot On Bedway Rob Peterson wrote: >>Depends on a lot of things. Scrape the rust off and see what the bedway looks like underneath. If the rusty spot is on the inner portion of the ways, then the carriage doesn't ride on that part and a "dip" in the bedway won't affect carriage movement. It "might" affect the tailstock alignment if the spot is long/deep enough that the tailstock can't span that part of the bed. If it's on or near the outer edge of the bedway then the carriage will ride over that. Depending on how deep the "dip" is, it'll either be a minor annoyance or require the bedway to need reground or the bed replaced. RP << I would follow Rob's advice, but wait a bit before grinding or replacing the bed per the last sentence. With rust removed in this spot, first completely degrease the spot and immediate area with a solvent like car brake spray cleaner or electronic contact spray cleaner -- neither of which leave any residue after several thorough applications. Use a rag to help wipe off gunk after each of the first couple of sprays. For the final spray or sprays, let the solvent wash away the final residue, and then let the area dry by evaporation without touching it with rag or fingers. If you have a concern about your lathe's paint (which could be from a post-factory paint job) do a small test in an inconspicuous area. If there will be a problem, use some plastic sheeting to cover the other parts of the lathe. Brake cleaner did not harm the paint on my 618, which was completely cleaned in this manner when first acquired. Caution, wear safety goggles and preferably a full face shield as eyeballs do not like being degreased. You might want to do this cleaning outside, which is easy with a relatively portable 618 when removed from stand and motor. When the lathe is back inside and warm again, mask around the depressed spot with paper masking tape. Putty the area with a metal-filled epoxy like J-B Weld -- trying to fill the depression but not mounding the epoxy more than necessary. Once fully cured, it can be dry sanded down to very nearly level and then wet sanded with 400 grit or finer to polish it. Keep the sanding device flat to keep the epoxy patch from being dished or mounded. Abrasive paper can be tightly wrapped around a file or 3M 77 spray-adhesived to a flat piece of wood or metal. The masking tape around the depression will protect the surrounding area and let you know your progress. As the tape is coming apart, you are nearly done. Remove tape and dust. Lube the epoxy patch and immediate steel area with wax and see how things work. Given the lesser amount of activity our lathes normally get away from the headstock, this repair may last for years and give good service. Well worth a try before using more drastic/costly measures. There are some very expensive epoxy products out there like Moglice that have been featured in Home Shop Machinist during restorations, but they are beyond my needs or experience. You can read about some uses of Moglice in my site's file "Sherline Mill Backlash". Good luck Steve -- in Thunder Bay, Ontario, Canada Machining and Metalworking at Home http://www.janellestudio.com/metal/ ------- Date: Mon, 27 Feb 2006 07:05:16 -0800 (PST) From: Russ R Subject: Re: Re: Rusted Spot On Bedway Just one small note: I read recently on another forum that the long- setting-time JB Weld is much stronger than the quickie 4 minute stuff. No personal experience, but the writer of that tip seemed very knowlegable. I've also read (again, not used first-hand) of a material used by gunsmiths to (for example) glue in barrel liners... called ACRAGLAS. Can be bought at Brownells and probably other gun suppliers. Sure sounds like a strong epoxy. Good luck, and please let us know how your fix turns out if you use this method. Russ in CT ------- Date: Mon, 27 Feb 2006 21:20:05 -0700 From: Greg Smith Subject: Re: Re: Rusted Spot On Bedway Acraglas is available in a few different forms. I would recommend the gel for this application. It is truly wondrous stuff, I use it all the time to make repairs on items that cannot be (for one reason or the other) be welded. It also works well for renewing half nuts. You should be able to pick it up at your local gun store. It is an epoxy gun stock bedding compound. Best Regards, Greg ------- Date: Wed, 01 Mar 2006 16:20:27 -0000 From: "n5kzw" Subject: Re: Rusted Spot On Bedway You might try a small wire brush, followed by an abrasive nylon pad soaked in light oil. To be really safe, you could the a small brass wire brush instead of a steel one. Once you have most of the loose stuff gone, switch to a fiberglass "rust eraser" pen to go after the remaining rust. I would try to avoid using any type of scraper or powered device, if possible. Regards, Ed ------- Date: Wed, 01 Mar 2006 19:49:41 +0000 From: cbrumbelowx~xxcomcast.net Subject: Re: Re: Rusted Spot On Bedway Has the idea of building up the rusted spot with splatter welding (maybe wrong name for technique) been mentioned? Might be worth a look. This is how crankshafts etc. are sometimes salvaged. Charles ------- Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2006 16:05:28 -0500 From: "S or J" Subject: Re: Rusted Spot On Bedway dwt: Strongly suggest you read the files relating to machine conditioning and other useful subjects on my site including: Atlas Repair or Fitting Cleaning Tips Finish For Tools (which discusses painting too) Lubricants General Machine General Rebuilding Machinery Rust Removal There are more ideas in the other files. I did not repeat a conversation in multiple files as I did not have the web space. So some conversations, mentioning say rust removal, are buried in other subject files because the principal topic was something different -- and went into the most appropriate file (my arbitrary choice). For example, you asked about a rust spot on the 618. I filed this conversation in Atlas Repair or Fitting as the conversation is actually generic to all size Atlases (and other brands) and so it was not put into the Atlas 618 Gems file. Often folks in groups will tell you to read the archives before asking a question, because nearly every question has been asked, and answered, at least once before. I realize that any group archives are hard to search, and suggest you first try reading multiple files on my site that have already filtered out repetitive quotes and useless stuff. And some gems of information came from places/groups you do not normally associate with lathes or metal- working. I have diverse interests and find good tips over a spectrum of hobbies that can be applied to metalworking. As suggested before for flattening an epoxy repaired area, surround a rust bump-up area with tape to protect the vicinity and file or scrape or Dremel-wire-brush the bump. With luck, there will not be a big depression left after rust removal. But if so use a metal-filled epoxy or similar product to bring the hole up to flat. Russ mentioned that the longer setting version of J-B Weld (Steel) was preferable. True of that and any other epoxy -- those epoxies in a brand-family with the longer setting times are far stronger generally. You have to weigh convenience (saving time) versus durability (and not having to do it over someday). In general purpose epoxies, the only real advantage of a 5 minute type may (may!) be its ability to set and cure near freezing temperatures. Personally I try to use versions with longer set and cure times. Brownell's Acraglas was mentioned by Russ and Greg. Very tough product that I have used for bedding. Probably more expensive and less available locally than the J-B. Other epoxies could be used if you mixed in metal powder/filings to strengthen the mixture and make it more resistant to later wear. The J-B Weld has another advantage in being resistant to pretty high temperatures. It is often used to seal muffler joints for custom mufflers used with model aircraft engines. (And those little critters do get hot enough to leave brands on body parts.) Steve -- in Thunder Bay, Ontario, Canada Machining and Metalworking at Home http://www.janellestudio.com/metal/ ------- Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2006 18:52:29 -0000 From: "Rob Peterson" Subject: Re: Back Gear assembly shaft - how to remove for a belt change? In atlas618lathe "ree0077" wrote: > I took the screws out of the collars but still the shaft doesnt seem to > move, even with a little pin and hammer assist. Is there a trick to > it? or do I need to pound it out? Something is quite wrong here. > Thanks Rich Use a drift and punch the pin in the handle out. Make postive sure that the "set screw" (it isn't REALLY a set screw) in the center is loosened or removed. Loosen the set screws in the two collars. Then drive the shaft towards the end gear cover with a brass drift. Catch the detent ball from under the handle. All there is to it. RP ------- Date: Sat, 18 Mar 2006 17:05:55 -0600 From: Jon Elson Subject: Re: Adjusting Gibs on model 101.28990 Saddle Mark Simmons wrote: >Picked up a used Craftsman 12" 101.28990 lathe last fall. Been working >with it and have a few questions for you more experienced users. I found >that the saddle had a lot of twist in it so I adjusted the gibs to take >the play out. Now it seems to be tighter than I would expect for normal >use but it seems what is necessary to eliminate the twisting of the >saddle on the ways. >I was wondering what would be considered "normal" for moving the saddle? >Now I know this is very subjective so right off the bat I'll tell you >that it is pretty tight and takes much more effort than I believe it >should. I also of course made sure that the lock is released. On a machine with little wear, a pressure of perhaps 5 Lbs directly on the carriage would move it. You need to use something like way oil to keep an oil film under the carriage. On a worn bed, you will find it getting tighter at the ends, where the wear is less. Using the carriage crank, it should only take 8 - 16 Oz of force on the handle to move it. If it is more than that, you really have a problem. Most likely you have a worn bed that has worn the front guide edge of the carriage into a convex arc. Once this edge is curved, jamming it with the gib is a poor fix. That will lead to more rapid wear on the bed, and the carriage, too. So, you might pull the carriage, and inspect the edge that rides against the front face of the bed. Test with a straightedge or hardened and ground shaft to see if that also will rock on the edge. If so, you need to scrape the edge in the middle to restore it to straightness. This is tricky, as that edge assures the cross slide is perpendicular to the spindle axis. >Next question is that again I had to adjust the gibs on the cross slide >as well as the tool post slide. Again this was to eliminate play and >twisting while turning. One thing I noticed is that there is not a way >to "lock" the cross slide or tool post slide down. When doing cut offs, >I found that the cross slide and tool post slide would creep. The cross slide is normally snugged down quite a bit tighter than the carriage. It might take 10 -20 Lbs to move the cross slide directly. (You don't normally zip the cross slide back and forth a foot at a time.) I have never really felt a need to lock the cross slide. You do want to snug up the bearing assembly at the handle for minimum backlash of the leadscrew itself. Tighten it up until the handle binds, then back off a few thousandths. If the leadscrew/nut is badly worn, it is a good project to make replacement parts yourself. >Lastly, a comment on cutting off. >I had been cutting off using a three jaw chuck and found the only way to >keep the chatter down was to cut at the slowest speeds. Today I used the >tail stock with a fixed spindle in combination with the chuck. I was >able to cut off at high speed with no problems. I know that traditional >wisdom says not to cut off between centers, but it seems cutting off >with one piece in the chuck and one held by the tail stock seems to be >the hot tip on my lathe. Most likely your chuck jaws are worn at the tips, and only holding the work at the back edge. You can check this by loosely gripping a part in the chuck, and seeing if you can wiggle the front end. If you can wiggle it, and it appears only the front of the part is moving, but the back seems to be pretty well restrained, that indicates worn jaws. There is a procedure for re-cutting and grinding the jaw tips to correct this. I won't launch into this process here. Jon ------- NOTE TO FILE: Correcting worn chuck jaws is covered in detail in the Atlas Chucks General file. Needed for all brands eventually. ------- Date: Fri, 07 Apr 2006 23:00:08 -0700 From: William Abernathy Subject: Removing back gears from eccentric shaft [atlas_craftsman] I've secured a replacement back gear and want to mount it on my 10" Atlas. I have removed the back gear assemby from the lathe, and have removed the easy bits (set screws, collars, etc.) from the shaft. The eccentrics appear to be held in with drift pins. Before I get the hammer out: is drifting the pins out necessary to remove the eccentrics to get at the gear? If yes, is this pin tapered or straight? (Sorry I have to ask, but one end is recessed, hence tough to measure.) Or is there some other trick I'm missing out on entirely. Finally, once I get the eccentric loose, will this busted gear require a puller to release from the shaft? Thanks mucho, William A. ------- Date: Sat, 08 Apr 2006 14:10:45 -0500 From: Jon Elson Subject: Re: Removing back gears from eccentric shaft > is drifting the pins out necessary to remove the eccentrics to get at > the gear? I think so, I had to drive out a pin to get that gear off. > If yes, is this pin tapered or straight? It is straight. I fretted over which end to drive from, worrying that if it was tapered, I'd make it impossible to remove. But, not a problem. > will this busted gear require a puller to release from the shaft? The gear was a tight fit, and I had to drive it off. It might be easier to use a puller, but I just tapped it off with a steel bar. Jon ------- From: "tomatared" tomataredx~xxyahoo.com Date: Sat Apr 15, 2006 11:51am(PDT) Subject: repairing tailstock ram lock [atlas_craftsman] Help! I have a craftsman 12" and the tailstock ram was stuck, till this morning. I was able to remove the ram, hammered on the screwend, but find the problem of it being stuck, is the locking sleeve. It doesn't budge. I have been putting kroil on it, but it still doesn't move. Does anyone have any ideas to remove the lock sleeves? ------- From: "LouD31M066x~xxaol.com" LouD31M066x~xxaol.com Date: Sat Apr 15, 2006 0:55pm(PDT) Subject: Re: repairing tailstock ram lock Ram lock consists of upper half, lower half square head bolt, washer and knob...Bolt goes out bottom, knob and washer come off top, upper half comes up and bottom half goes down...assemble in reverse order...hehehe the parts other than bolt and washer are Zamac zinc alloy...they are no doubt jammed slightly...do not hammer unless you are willing to $pend to replace...they will come out... remember: the top piece comes up and the bottom piece goes down! At least that's how it worked for me... Louis [later message:]Gentlemen: per Atlas parts list 9-42A Lock nut with handle M6-93 washer M6-45 Lock sleeve M6-44 Lock 1/4-20 x 1 5/8 square head machine bolt Suggest your understanding of your lathe and its inner workings would be enhanced by making a phone call to Clausing Atlas x~xx (574) 533-0371 and ordering the Parts List, current Parts Price List and Catalog by make, model and serial number. Nominal investment that will give you a check on ebay bidding if nought else. ------- From: "tomatared" tomataredx~xxyahoo.com Date: Sat Apr 15, 2006 5:38pm(PDT) Subject: Re: repairing tailstock ram lock thanks Lou, I was able to knock the bottom half out, then had to drill out the top piece and make a new one. After I polished and honed everything, now it works good! ------- From: "Jon Elson" elsonx~xxpico-systems.com Date: Sat Apr 15, 2006 8:42pm(PDT) Subject: Re: repairing tailstock ram lock The locking sleeve should be in two pieces. The bottom piece should have threads in it, and is pulled up by the locking handle. You should be able to put a bolt of the same thread through from the top, and tap it downward and out. Then a rod can be tapped upward to drive out the upper part. Jon ------- From: "Al" aludtkex~xxearthlink.net Date: Sat May 27, 2006 9:11am(PDT) Subject: thread locker did the trick [atlas618lathe] Hi Guys: Some time ago I asked for advice on how to keep my motor shaft pulley from loosening itself. One or more of you suggested that I try some thread locking compound on the set screw. So I did. I used Permatex medium strength Thread Locker Blue. I am happy to report that it is still holding several weeks later, so it looks like that did the trick. Thanks for the advice; it was an easy and inexpensive fix and I never would have known. Al ------- Re: Setting up lathes with cast iron legs [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: "S or J" jstudiox~xxtbaytel.net Date: September 8, 2006 Mon Sep 4, 2006 "Michael Darling" miked2002x~xxearthlink.net wrote: >>My 10x24" TH42 has a set of cast-iron legs (with attached motor mount/ countershaft) bolted directly to the small legs that are mounted on the bottom of the lathe bed. I'd like to get this machine up and running in the next couple of months, and add a "table top" between the legs and lathe to put chip pans on and stuff like that. Does anyone have any advice on this? I've looked through some of the pics in the photo section, but still have a couple questions. Right now the lathe and legs are secured with fairly long 3/8" dia bolts. This seems rigid enough for a leg-to-lathe joint, but what about adding the thickness of a table between the two? Should the bolts be mounted through the same holes, or should I look to mount the top to the legs, then mount the lathe to the top with separate fasteners? I am not in a location where I can bolt the lathe to the basement floor - any tricks to stabilizing/and roughly leveling the machine? I know the fine leveling work is done with shims, but at the moment it just seems easier to build a nice, heavy cabinet to set the lathe on top of. -mike in NJ << Hi Mike: Today finally got my computer reconnected after a house move, so have just read your post. Some thoughts follow. I have a small 618 and do not have a set of cast iron legs for it, but have had similar setups for other machines. Personally those long narrow metal legs have not inspired stability and I have usually mounted the machines on sturdy benches of wood and/or welded metal construction. If the aim is to be true to the original, no matter what its faults or weaknesses, then keeping original is one approach. Another is to retain all original parts so an original setup can be sold with the lathe someday in the future. In the meanwhile adapt the machine to a bench that better suits your particular needs today. My 618 is mounted on a heavy welded cabinet, tapped on its steel top for the lathe and jackshaft/motor mounting bolts. Wooden enclosed shelves with cabinet doors on the front allow accessories to be stored out of the way, and shielded from ships and dust. Very heavy and rigid. One machine, where I had to keep the original legs so all factory accessories would fit, was a Shopsmith. There, a heavy plywood board was bolted 6" below the bed rails and serves to hold some of the accessories most often used. To increase stability, and dampen vibrations, a 25 pound bag of lead shot rests on each end of the board up against the leg. [Some cheap alternatives to shot bags are sandbags. Just remember to use dry sand and seal it in a sturdy bag that is in turn enclosed in a plastic outer bag to avoid moisture and rust --- and sand everywhere.] There have been a number of discussions on benches and shop ideas that you can find on my website in the general file Workshop Tips. There are also many lathe setup answers in the lathe section there, in a file called Atlas Repair or Fitting. Good luck Steve -- in Thunder Bay, Ontario, Canada Machining and Metalworking at Home http://www.janellestudio.com/metal/ ------- Re: Setting up lathes with cast iron legs Posted by: "Michael Darling" miked2002x~xxearthlink.net Date: Sun Sep 10, 2006 12:31 pm (PDT) Steve, thanks for the advice. Your experiences with this seem to confirm my fears! I am on vacation at the moment but when I get home I will investigate how the countershaft attaches to the legs. Then I'll start planning a new bench, hopefully something with a good number of heavy drawers so I can keep all of the lathe business contained. I have no particular desire to keep them, and if the lathe gets moved cross-country after school is over, they will probably be sold off. Thanks again, Mike ------- Re: New Owner [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: "Steve" skadsmx~xxpeoplepc.com Date: Tue Sep 12, 2006 7:28 am (PDT) >I just purchased my first Lathe and look forward to many >hours learning its use. I was "lucky" enough to stumble on an Atlas >Series-10 lathe Model 10 that seams to be in fare shape. Welcome! >One change >gear is cracked (96 tooth) and the Pinion gear that connects to the >carriage manual drive handle is trashed (my fault on that one). You can pick some of these up on ebay. Some parts are available through Clausing and some from Sears, believe it or not. >I would say the unit is 98% complete the only parts I don't have are the >belts for motor drive and counter shaft, the power switch cover plate, For belts, try the link belts, as you won't have to pull everything apart to get them on. Look for Fenner belts. (I got mine at Woodworkers Club http://www.woodcraft.com/ >and I haven't found a serial number plate on the unit. Model number is on a plate on the middle of the bed on the OPPOSITE side on which you stand. Will start with "101.". Serial number usually stamped in the ways on the tailstock end. >Everything else seams to be with the unit including the original >motor. (I haven't tested the motor yet) >I would welcome any information I can get on the proper >cleaning and maintenance of the Babbit bearings in the headstock. Lubrication chart is available from Atlas. Also a lot of other good information. Not sure on what to use on babbit, as mine is Timken. You can also get parts diagrams from them as well. Send them an email. If you have accessories, look for the model number of the accessory and send that as well, and you may get the parts/user matierals for those as well. You can quickly get a low-resolution parts diagram at www.sears.com by click on the parts link and entering your model number. >The old oil on this unit was hardened and most moving parts where >stiff or immobile. How should I properly clean and then adjust these >bearings? I don't want to do more harm than good here and I do want >this to be a working tool when I clean it up. Someone with a babbit headstock will have to answer this one Steve ------- Re: New Owner Posted by: "Rob Peterson" harpyx~xxavenuecable.com Date: Tue Sep 12, 2006 8:57 pm (PDT) > >The old oil on this unit was hardened and most moving parts where > >stiff or immobile. How should I properly clean and then adjust these > >bearings? I don't want to do more harm than good here and I do want > >this to be a working tool when I clean it up. > Someone with a babbit headstock will have to answer this one Cleaning Babbit bearings is easy. You'll need to disassemble the headstock though. Pull the caps (the 2 bolts on each cap) and the "shims" (could be paper or metal) and make a note of what goes where and in what orientation. Now, lift out the spindle (be careful). Clean with mineral spirits and a bristle brush. Soaking everything well and just swish the brush around. Anything stubborn can be allowed to soak for a bit to loosen the crud (shouldn't be much inside the bearings). Be sure to clean the oil cups and passages with a narrow brush and GET THEM CLEAN. Blow them out with air to be sure no crud is in there. Any crud will go right to the bearings so be positive sure it's clean. Adjustments are just as easy. Lightly oil and replace the spindle into the headstock. Replace the shims and bearing caps. and tighten the bolts down. Set up a dial indicator and measure the deflection/movement of the spindle next to the bearing (and not the end). It shouldn't be more than .002"-.003". If it is, then remove shims from the shim pack. Remove half of the amount of excess deflection from the shims and reassemble. Recheck. Once you have the bearings adjusted, run the machine for a few minutes (5-10 mins) at medium speed. Shut it off and check each bearing cap by touch. If they're warm (as if they had a "fever") they're ok. If they're hot to the touch they're too tight and you need to add a couple shims to increase the clearance. Thermal temps should be around 105-110 degrees. If you can't adjust the shims to bring the bearings into correct adjustment, you'll have to repour them. It's not hard to do that either. Just scary the first time. I've done it and it's EASY if you think things through first and are prepared. Toughest part will be to suspend the spindle in the bare headstock in the right place and orientation while pouring the babbitt. A mandrel in the tailstock will do that. Try the yahoo group for old woodworking machines for more info on pouring babbitt bearings. The old woodworking machines "mother" website is http://www.owwm.com RP ------- NOTE TO FILE: The next question about parts is primarily an issue of EXCESSIVE BACKLASH. Yes sometimes a new part is needed, but frequently the problem can be resolved, or severely reduced, by adjustment. Some backlash is always going to be present no matter how you adjust even factory new machines. Learn to compensate for the backlash during your operating procedure. You will find some interesting reading about backlash in the file here called Sherline Mill Backlash. Don't be put off by the Sherline brand or mill aspects of this file. The backlash problem is common to virtually any lathe or mill, and the principles of reducing backlash or compensating for backlash can be adapted to any machine. ------- Re: PARTS QUESTION [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: "Jon Elson" elsonx~xxpico-systems.com Date: Sun Oct 8, 2006 10:18 am (PDT) Pete wrote: >i have a 12x24 A-C lathe that i just bought. i've been getting it >tooled up and taking some cuts. i noticed that the cross slide has >about .020 of play in it. i'd like to change the feed screw and nut >(or can i get along with just a new nut?). once i saw a link on this >site for a site to buy new replacement parts. anyone? First, check the adjustment of the nuts on the handle. These allow you to tighten up the thrust bushing to minimal clearance. If that doesn't help, then you may need a new screw and nut. These may be available from the Clausing Service center. We have a link to them in the Suppliers section of our links page. Jon ------- Re: PARTS QUESTION Posted by: "n8as1x~xxaol.com" Date: Sun Oct 8, 2006 7:06 pm (PDT) also tighten the screw that holds the nut ..!!!!!!!!!!!!!got rid of .050 that way .......020 is tolerable ..new is between .005 - .--.010 ...if u want the minimum , take a skim cut on the screw to even it up & cut a new nut to FIT ..i have single point cut acme & sq.internal thrds as small as 7/16 ....it is slightly terrifying the first time, but so are a lot of things .....pay attention to rt . or left thrd....& think abt why that is so firmly in my memory!!!!! best wishes docn8as ------- Re: PARTS QUESTION Posted by: "jerdal" jerdalx~xxbrick.net Date: Sun Oct 8, 2006 7:28 pm (PDT) I WOULD NOT bother to do ANYTHING to that for 0.020.... That is NOT a problem, easy to deal with even if everything is tight now and it won't get better. You are gonna have SOME play regardless, and you may as well get used to it and deal with it now. Nothing is perfect, and you will be mighty T-O'd if your nice new $200 worth of new screws etc ends up with several thou still, as I expect it will. JT ------- Re: PARTS QUESTION Posted by: "William Abernathy" williamx~xxinch.com Date: Mon Oct 9, 2006 12:00 am (PDT) The replacement nut for the cross-slide is somewhere between 50 and 60 bucks from Clausing, last I checked. Before you order a replacement nut, there is a second check you should perform. On the top of the cross-slide, there should be a short 1/4 x 20 bolt. This bolt holds the cross-slide to the cross-slide screw nut. If there is no washer in place under the bolt head, the couple between the cross-slide and the nut will be loose enough to account for the slop you're running into. Make sure there's a flat washer under the bolt head, broad enough to cover the entire hole (it will just begin to interfere with the compound slide pivot base), and that there's reasonable torque on the bolt. If this is your problem, you've got a solution that doesn't involve more than a 12-cent investment. Best of luck. William ------- Re: Countershaft pulley [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: "Rob Peterson" harpyx~xxavenuecable.com Date: Mon Oct 9, 2006 11:51 am (PDT) robert simone wrote: >> I recently purchased an Atlas-Craftsmann 6" lathe. Upon cleaning it, I noticed the pulley i.d. on the countershaft had some play in it and had apparently worn oblong on the spindle. I would like to keep it as it is original to the lathe and has the proper number for that part. I priced one at Clausing and found it to be too much money. I was wondering if anyone on the board has repaired one. I was thinking of reaming or boring out the pulley i.d. and rebushing it. Any help would be appreciated. << You could make a bushing on the lathe using the wobbly pulley then just bore and press the bushing into the pulley for the repair. Since the pulley uses just a set screw there's no keyway issue to deal with. Aluminum should work fine I'd think but I'm no expert. I'd make a "test" hole with the drillpress and the drill you're going to use to bore the pulley unless you have access to another lathe to bore the pulley on. Then fit the bushing OD to that as an interference fit (press fit). You'll need to make a provision for the set screw (a hole in the bushing in the right place) and you may need a longer screw since the bushing will remove/replace the threads at the bottom of the hole. RP ------- Re: Countershaft pulley Posted by: "jmartin957x~xxaol.com" Date: Mon Oct 9, 2006 12:40 pm (PDT) > I'd make a "test" hole with the drillpress and the drill you're going > to use to bore the pulley unless you have access to another lathe to > bore the pulley on. Drilling and boring are two very different things. If the pulley wobbles now, and he drills it out and bushes it, it will cure the wobble but it will now run eccentrically. If, on the other hand, he gets it running true on the lathe and then bores it and bushes, it will run true on the countershaft. If he can't do that because he needs the pulley to run his lathe and has no access to another, he's stuck. Unless he wants to make a new pulley from scratch. John Martin ------- Re: Countershaft pulley Posted by: "Jon Elson" elsonx~xxpico-systems.com Date: Mon Oct 9, 2006 4:48 pm (PDT) >If he can't do that because he needs the pulley to run his lathe and has >no access to another, he's stuck. The boring operation could actually be done by hand, if you just needed to do it once to fix the lathe. You could just turn the chuck or faceplate while taking a light cut. Jon ------- Re: Countershaft pulley Posted by: "vulcom1" vulcomx~xxtelusplanet.net Date: Mon Oct 9, 2006 1:54 pm (PDT) Another way is if he has a drill press or mill is to clamp it to the table on centre. Mount an adjustable boring bar in the chuck or mill and go down through it. Then it can be bushed. Just happen to have just done this on a block of alum. that I could not mount in my 10". John ------- Re: Countershaft pulley Posted by: "jmartin957x~xxaol.com" Date: Mon Oct 9, 2006 2:43 pm (PDT) Agreed. If he has a mill, this will work perfectly. All he has to do is align the pulley with the mill spindle, which he can do by sweeping the rim with a test indicator. Single-point boring on a drill press isn't such a hot idea, as the quill/ spindle/bearings/chuck/boring bar combination isn't usually rigid enough. There is a way to do it, though, and that's with a piloted boring bar. Given just a lightweight drill press, here's what I'd do: On the lathe, turn a shallow recess in a block of hardwood just large enough to accept the pulley rim. Bore a through hole in it - say, 1/2" diameter. Just large enough to take a homemade boring bar. Pulley and boring bar should be snug fits. Drill the boring bar to take a square or round piece of HSS as a cutter, in the usual manner of homemade boring bars. Except that, rather than having the cutter at the end of the bar, leave a couple of inches of bar ahead of the cutter to act as a pilot. It can help to relieve the bar in the area of the cutter to keep chips from packing up. Now he can bore the pulley on even a loose drill press, using the hardwood block as a pilot bushing and centering device for the pulley. The only drawback to this - other than the time to make up the block and boring bar - is that a boring bar of this type can be tricky to set to an exact bore diameter. But, he can always turn the bushing to fit. Or maybe he can't - since that would require a working lathe. He could also make that hardwood block out of, say, 1/2" steel instead, with a center hole the size of the hole he wants to end up with. Use it on the drill press, not underneath the pulley but on top of it as a drill guide. Still prefer the piloted boring bar, though. John Martin ------- Re: How do I remove the headstock guard? [atlas618lathe] Posted by: "Jason Spangle" jasonspanglex~xxhotmail.com Date: Tue Nov 14, 2006 1:50 pm ((PST)) I've always used a small socket, taped to a C-clamp to get those pins out. I hold a drive pin (smaller than the pin getting removed of course) to the other pin's end, and have the taped socket on the opposite side. Then I simply start turning the C-clamp, driving the pin out. Never had anything break this way. The pin gets pushed out, and inside the socket, and all the force is on the inside wall, no need to tap or hammer anything. I've used this method for all sorts of pin removal, it works really good, and there's never a risk of breaking a casting. Jason ------- Re: back gear trouble [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: "jmartin957x~xxaol.com" Date: Mon Jan 22, 2007 8:18 am ((PST)) In a message dated 1/22/07, njdubx~xxyahoo.com writes: > Hello, this is my first post with this group. > A friend and I have been trying to get a Atlas 6 inch 618 to do some > turning, it's in pretty good shape. This lathe has the tapered roller > bearings. The problem is when the back gears are engaged they sieze > up. When they are disengaged everything turns, spins fine. At first > glance it looks like the eccentric shaft is causing the problem, but > it spins fine when disengaged. And the engaging lever movement > appears to be normal. I have read through the manual some, thought I > would ask a few questions before taking it apart. > I didn't see anything right away in the archives, I can be referred > to any past post that cover this. Hope this isn't a question all > the new guys ask, thanks for any advice you might have. Nick Not all the new guys ask, but it's not uncommon. What is uncommon is that you first have and have read the manual and searched the archives. You'll go a long way with the lathe with that approach - congratulations! Since the spindle turns, and the back gears turn, there are two possibilities: 1. The back gear assembly is meshing too tightly with the spindle gears. Not too likely, but you can check it by engaging the gears only part way (not under power). 2. The spindle step pulley and the small spindle gear have to be free to rotate on the spindle, at a greater speed than the spindle, when in back gear. Two things can keep this from happening. One: the locking pin that goes through the side of the bull gear into the spindle step pulley. This should be pushed in when in direct drive, but pulled out when in back gear. Two: the step pulley / small spindle gear assembly have bronze bearings which run on the spindle. These could be frozen. They are meant to be lubricated through a small hole in the pulley which is plugged by a set screw. That set screw is a common problem - many people think it is a locking screw, and tighten it down on the spindle. It isn't - it's only meant to keep the oil in. It's not uncommon, by the way, to find double set screws in some holes, although I'm not sure there are enough threads in the pulley for that. HTH John Martin Cumberland, Maine ------- Re: back gear trouble Posted by: "njdub" njdubx~xxyahoo.com njdub Date: Tue Jan 23, 2007 6:06 am ((PST)) I found the pin, just didn't see it, had a good amount of oil and dust built up on it. We could stand to have a better light in the basement as well. The words in the manual make more sense to me now. Thank you for your help. Nick ------- Re: Moving Lathe to new location [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: "old2l63" oldtoolx~xxfvi.net old2l63 Date: Sat Mar 24, 2007 10:39 am ((PDT)) "markalan05" wrote: > bed by removing a couple of screws. It is still very heavy! > 1) Is it safe and easy to unbolt and remove the main drive unit with > gear box attached from the bed without causing damage or reassembly > issues? > 2) Should I avoid removing the drive system and muscle it into position? > 3) A description of the removal would be appreciated. > Thanks Mark Mark has posed the "moving" question: I just sold a 12 inch, and recently moved my 6 inch. I also have a South Bend 9 inch, and have move all more than I care to recount. Even on the larger lathes I can move the bed with the headstock in place with two reasonable strong guys. My wife (not so strong) and I moved the Atlas 12 from 1 bench to another. Use a dolly when possible. I have a nifty 2 wheeler that converts to a 4 wheeler. That is less than $40 at the hardware store. Place a piece of plywood on it in the flat position for moving. Use straps to secure it. The lathe is top heavy! Remove the tailstock, and cross slide. You will need to remove the lead screw and loosen the gibs to get the cross slide off. It's 2 bolts on the bearing end of the screw, and it slips out of the headstock. Keep the bearing on the screw. The gibs are 3 set screws, but don't let the gib fall on the floor. It is loose in the slot. The head stock comes off if necessary, but then you have to deal with realigning the gear train. It is not impossible, but it is a pain. It has 2 large bolts with cast retainers under the headstock if you feel the need. Remove or secure all flappy pieces you don't want to break them. DAMHIKT I agree that disassembly and reassembly are good for the soul. Do a good cleaning with kerosine and relube the machine prior to use. Mike ------- NOTE TO FILE: Years ago similar equipment moving discussions resulted in many tales of how-to's and what-not-to's, along with some hair raising accidents. One fellow said he found a company called something like Death Wish Piano Movers and hired them to move his machinery. Professional machinery movers likely have proper insurance along with adequate know- ledge and safety equipment and experience to hopefully do it safely. A few bucks for a professional mover is likely money well spent compared to the safety risk to your machinery and/or family and friends if you choose to do it yourself and end up exceeding your capabilities. Safety should be your primary concern here. ------- Newb saying hi and a couple questions [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: "lbhgti" lbhsbzx~xxhotmail.com Date: Sun Apr 15, 2007 4:07 pm ((PDT)) My name is Pat and I recently joined this group after purchasing an Atlas 10" lathe. About 2 years ago, I bought a Harbor freight 7x12 lathe and mini mill, but some of my current projects have been a bit large for the lathe. I found the Atlas for $300 in the local classifieds and jumped on it. When I got it home I found out that the apron handwheel gear had a missing tooth, making carriage feed kind of jumpy, and the compound gib was bend and galled up. Aside from that, I've just got to figure out if I can quiet down the change gears and I think I'll be good to go. I found a complete compound and the gear on ebay, and also picked up an Aloris style QCTP and an 8" 4 jaw chuck. Question: How do I take the compound apart? I was able to get the bad gib out by loosening the set screws, but I can't figure out how to remove the compound from its base. ------- Re: Newb saying hi and a couple questions Posted by: "Brett Jones" brettx~xx5foot2.com Date: Sun Apr 15, 2007 5:51 pm ((PDT)) My compound has two square headed bolts on either side of the base. these push into a pair of pins that bind the compound into position onto the male mounting pad. Loosen those bolts and if it's not comping loose try shooting in some penetrating oil or solvent (brake cleaner works good). Those pins may be stuck in place. You should be able to replace your old gib with something made out of cold rolled flat stock. I've found if I run the change gears to tight they make all sorts of noise. I set mine so the teeth engage about 2/3 of the way and I use bar change oil as a lubricant (I use this on the ways as well). I've heard some people use moly based lubes. I've not tried that but I'd bet it keeps things quiet. That gear in the apron is peened onto the shaft it rides on. I've never pulled any of those gears off, so I have no advise there, maybe someone else has. Brett Jones ------- Re: Newb saying hi and a couple questions Posted by: "Glenn N" sleykinx~xxcharter.net Date: Sun Apr 15, 2007 6:03 pm ((PDT)) The compound is mounted to the cross slide with a circular dovetail joint. There are two (should be square head) screws that lock the compound from swiveling. If you loosen these screws about a half inch or so the slugs that hold the compound on can be wiggled back in their bores and the compound comes off. The amount of crud built up will determine how hard this might be :) HTH Glenn ------- Re: Newb saying hi and a couple questions Posted by: "lbhgti" lbhsbzx~xxhotmail.com Date: Sun Apr 15, 2007 8:41 pm ((PDT)) I read both responses and maybe I'm just stupid, but I don't see any square head bolts anywhere. There are 2 hex nuts that retain the swivel mechanism, but that's all I can see. Those are off and the swivel part is separated. On my little china lathe, to get the compound off the base on which it slides, I just keep threading it back and eventually it runs out of threads and I take it off. The atlas unit stops turning before it runs out of threads... I'm still confused. I suppose I could just slide the new gib in and use it but I'd really like to disassemble it and clean and lap everything. ------- Re: Newb saying hi and a couple questions Posted by: "Brett Jones" brettx~xx5foot2.com Date: Sun Apr 15, 2007 10:02 pm ((PDT)) I guess I misunderstood what you were trying to do. There should be two fasteners on either side of the dial. Remove them and unscrew the assembly. The top of the compound then slides off. Brett Jones ------- Re: Newb saying hi and a couple questions Posted by: "Glenn N" sleykinx~xxcharter.net Date: Sun Apr 15, 2007 10:30 pm ((PDT)) Oh .. duhh I answered the wrong question .. I told you how to get the compound off the cross slide. To take the compound apart you remove the two screws on either side of the dial (in the aluminum plate) and the compound just slides back off the screw and the gibbs will then be exposed. Sorry bout the communication breakdown .. hope this is a better answer :) Glenn ------- Re: Newb saying hi and a couple questions Posted by: "catboat15x~xxaol.com" catboat15x~xxaol.com Date: Tue Apr 17, 2007 4:06 pm ((PDT)) To get the compound off the cross slide simply loosen the two set screws on the base of the compound; this takes the pressure off the pins that hold the compound onto the cross slide. Then the fun part begins. The compound fits over a disk on the cross slide that is tapered larger at the top than at the bottom and the pins that are under the set screws have a taper to match the disk. But, often you will find the pins are stuck in old grease or oil and won't slide back the way they are supposed to move. (Been there done that, but didn't get a T shirt.) You twist, you pull to try to put a thin magnet down the hole to pull on those X#%$# Pins and they still won't come loose. Eventually the pins do move back after a lot of twisting and pulling, and then you can clean the holes, pins and mounting disk with solvent and things will work better in the future. I thought about using some kind of adhesive on a wood skewer to pull on the pins, but it's probably so oily on the ends that an adhesive would not stick. (By pulling don't bend or break anything, just enough to lift the compound off.) My particular problem was that I put the old milling adopter that came with my lathe on the saddle and could not get it off again for a frustrating period. John Meacham from the high deserts of Calif 12 inch Atlas lathe, mini mill, HF band saw and a rusty file. ------- Re: Newb saying hi and a couple questions Posted by: "lbhgti" lbhsbzx~xxhotmail.com Date: Tue Apr 24, 2007 12:07 am ((PDT)) Most of you responded saying that there was a turret like dovetail pivot for the compound...mine didn't have that. Mine just has a shallow round sort of pilot that the compound pivots on. The spare compound and gib I bought off ebay came with a dovetail turret, but mine is different. The part I bought has 4 gib adjustment screws, and mine only has 3 flathead non-locknut set screws. Maybe I've got the cheapo model. Anyway, I've got to a figure out a way to clamp the gib strip in my chinese mini-mill to face off the seats for the 3 adjustment screws in the new gib strip, because they are in different spots than the replacement piece that I got. I also found the apron shaft/gear on ebay for about $30, brand new. I'll work on it this week I hope....got some pieces to make, so I need to get the lathe working. I picked up an 8" 4 jaw craftsman chuck on ebay for $180 shipped too, and a cheapo aloris style QCTP. Once again, I find myself broke with a new toy to play with. ------- Re: Newb saying hi and a couple questions Posted by: "lbhgti" lbhsbzx~xxhotmail.com Date: Sun Apr 29, 2007 8:13 pm ((PDT)) Alright guys, thanks for the help. I took the carriage off today, replaced the traverse gear and dissassembled, cleaned, lubed, and reassemebled everything. I got the gibs adjusted and the lathe works nice and smooth. I even leveled it. I got a little scared because it seemed that the oil pots on the spindle bearings would empty every time I started the lathe... I thought the bearings were toast, so I pulled off the rear cap. The spindle looks like a mirror, and the bearing had only a little wear...not too bad. The little felt wicks are gone in the oil pots, so it would suck all the oil into the bearing. I'll figure out something to stick in there and I should be fine. ------- NOTE TO FILE: Folks have used alternatives to factory wicking in the headstock oil pots. Popular solutions include: a piece of felt (from a fabric store or piece of old felt hat), or a short length of thick cotton shoelace as for athletic shoes. Just remember to top up the oil before starting to use the lathe. Too little oil will cause an overheating and potentially excessive wear situation. Overoiling just means the tabletop or tray under the headstock will not rust anytime soon. True felt however is the best replacement for wipers on lathe carriages or similar. See the next message. ------- Re: What do you guys use for felts? [Metal_Shapers] Posted by: "Ed Godwin" eng4turnsx~xxyahoo.com Date: Mon Apr 30, 2007 6:09 am ((PDT)) viajoaquin... wrote: > McMaster-Carr http://www.mcmaster.com/ sells 12" square sheets of wiper > felt (F5). Look up item # 8341K31 1/8" or 8341K36 3/16". BakoRoy Ditto on McMaster-Carr. They have a good write-up on the various grades of felt. I use the F-1 grade for my wipers, it's a little denser than the F-5. You can get sheets in various thicknesses, rounds, etc. Ed in Florida ------- [atlas_craftsman] Re: anyone mastered the 12x36 101.27440 craftsman atlas lathe? i hav Posted by: "neil carey" neilpcareyx~xxyahoo.com Date: Mon Apr 30, 2007 8:19 pm ((PDT)) Thanks for replying to my email. I am having many problems. But the first is with the reverse tumbler lever gears. I took my lathe totally apart and cleaned and painted everything. I tightened the bolts on the reverse tumbler to take out the slack in them. And when I go to use the carriage the bolts really scream and then tighten up and totally lock up. If I leave the nuts too loose the nut will fall off, and when I tighten them up, they just get tighter when I am using the carriage. Hope this is enough info to get my point across of what my problem is. Any help would be great. Thanks neil ------- Re: anyone mastered the 12x36 101.27440 craftsman atlas lathe? i hav Posted by: "Brett Jones" brettx~xx5foot2.com Date: Mon Apr 30, 2007 8:36 pm ((PDT)) I'd bet the hardened race that the Zamak bearing runs on is the trouble. The 12" I'm working on has this issue also. If the race were long enough, the nut would bottom out on it and the gear and bearing would spin freely. I was going to simply replace mine with new parts, but I think one could just cut a spacer to shim out the race without it getting in the way of the bearing and gear. Brett Jones ------- Re: anyone mastered the 12x36 101.27440 craftsman atlas lathe? i hav Posted by: "Jon Elson" elsonx~xxpico-systems.com Date: Tue May 1, 2007 10:08 am ((PDT)) The bushings that the gears run on are supposed to be longer than the keyed spacers or the stack of two gears. You can actually turn down the spacers a little if your bushings are mashed, or make new bushings. When these are right, you can tighten the nuts much harder than you'd need to to keep them from getting loose, with no binding. Jon ------- Re: Vertical countershaft flops out [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: "Jon Elson" elsonx~xxpico-systems.com Date: Sat May 5, 2007 5:45 pm ((PDT)) William Abernathy wrote: > I have an annoying problem on my 10" Atlas. When under power, the secondary drive (from the vertical countershaft to the spindle pulleys) flops out of engagement. I had a really lumpy old belt on there, and I replaced it with a new Fenner linked belt. Unfortunately, this one flops out of engagement as well. If I tighten up the belt using the screw adjusters on the countershaft, it flops out faster. If I loosen it, it doesn't transmit power effectively, and still can flop over. I've taken to running the lathe with one hand on the engagement lever, which, while charmingly idiosyncratic, strikes me as a bit daft and possibly unsafe. < These things have a flat on a shaft that loads the belt tension by pushing the countershaft away from the spindle. I am more familiar with the horizontal version, but I think the general linkage is pretty similar. It depends on the flat being truly flat to work. If the edges of the flat are rounded off enough, then it won't hold the controlling shaft in the flat. You should get a distinct over-center feel when the countershaft is up and tightening the belts, ie. it should lift up and then ease it back just a hair in the fully engaged position. If it doesn't have that little release back, the handle can slowly creep out of position. You may have to remake the shaft with the flats to get this to work. It is also possible that whatever sits in the flats has become rounded off or otherwise is not seating completely onto the flats. The key is that the two flat surfaces work together to make a stable position. Jon ------- Re: Vertical countershaft flops out Posted by: "Jim C" jimc1950x~xxyahoo.com Date: Sun May 6, 2007 3:29 pm ((PDT)) Yep mine does that. Tried all that I could. Finally I added a spring to help hold tension on the "down" side of the shaft. Works great. Just don't look behind the lathe. Jim ------- power crossfed on 101.07403 [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: "Bill Libecap" Mr_Billx~xxmailcity.com Date: Sat Jun 2, 2007 10:37 am ((PDT)) Hi Guys: I am somewhat new here. I purchased a lathe and the power cross feed now would not move. I removed the carriage apron and discovered a lot of metal curls jammed in the gears 9-102-24 and the miter gear 10f-83. After reassembly it would move in and out without problems but no power cross feed. The shaft turns but the miter gear on the shaft 10f-82A just spins. I looked inside it and it appears smooth. If this doesn't have threads in it I don't understand how the power cross feed could work. Is this gear my problem? Is this a common problem? How do I fix it? Bill ------- Re: power crossfed on 101.07403 Posted by: "Brett Jones" brettx~xx5foot2.com Date: Sat Jun 2, 2007 11:22 am ((PDT)) On these machines the power cross feed runs off the lead screw. So assuming your screw is turning, the miter gear that the lead screw runs through turns via the key slot in the screw and transmits the power up to the cross feed. I've seen a few miter gears that have the internal key sheared off. That's the first place I'd look. Brett Jones ------- Re: power crossfed on 101.07403 Posted by: "jerdalx~xxsbcglobal.net" Date: Sat Jun 2, 2007 2:12 pm ((PDT)) Your gear should probably look somewhat like the one on the right in the picture linked: http://img.photobucket.com/albums/0803/jstanley/newgear2.jpg You can see the key. Since the key may be the relatively weak casting material (Zamac) it isn't hard to shear it, expecially if it was jammed. JT ------- Re: power crossfed on 101.07403 Posted by: "Jon Elson" elsonx~xxpico-systems.com Date: Sun Jun 3, 2007 3:07 pm ((PDT)) seb fontana wrote: > That gear should have a integral key..they just wear down to nothing. > You'll have to replace the gear.. You can also bore out the gear and make a brass hub with integral keyway and glue it in. Jon ------- Re: power crossfed on 101.07403 Posted by: "Kirk Scammon" kscammonx~xxpegasus.cc.ucf.edu Date: Tue Jun 5, 2007 8:38 am ((PDT)) Bill: This was the case with my 07403, and the previous owner fixed it by drilling and tapping a 1/4 -28 tpi hole in the side of the bevel gear. He then threaded a small length of screw into the hole. The end of the screw was filed down so that it fit into the cut groove in the leadscrew. I have had the lathe for about 10 years and have not had a problem with it. This is very much like the screw in the bottom of the tailstock ram that keeps it from rotating. Regards Kirk ------- NOTE TO FILE: The proper procedure for engaging (or disengaging) the back gear on various Atlas lathes comes up periodically. The following short discussion is to the point. ------- Backgear [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: "Kirk Hillman" hillman88x~xxtelus.net Date: Sun Jun 3, 2007 5:10 pm ((PDT)) Could someone please explain how the backgear is SUPPOSED to work on an Atlas TH54? Mine just acts as a lock right now. One would think that the gears on the main spindle should somehow be able to turn independently, one of them being locked to the shaft and/or the pulleys. Thus, when the gears on the eccentric shaft are engaged one drives the other but at a different speed than normal. Unless I have missed something mine is locked together in some way that I cannot discern. Can anyone enlighten me on what I might be missing here? Thanks, Kirk ------- Re: Backgear Posted by: "William Abernathy" williamx~xxinch.com Date: Sun Jun 3, 2007 6:33 pm ((PDT)) Brett Jones wrote: > Release the locking pin on the bull gear. In a bit more detail: look at the face of the bull gear. Inboard of the gear teeth, there's a button. Pull it out, and the bull gear will freewheel. Then you can lock the back gears and run on back gearing. William ------- Re: Backgear Posted by: "Glenn" glennx~xxentropian.com Date: Mon Jun 4, 2007 8:44 am ((PDT)) I think this was covered a while back (check archives)... Your step pulley may be frozen to the spindle, OR someone might have run the pulley's set screw into the spindle. There's a set screw (or should be) in the step pulley on the spindle. Clean the dust and grime from around it, remove it, and squirt a healthy portion of your favorite oil in the hole. Put the set screw back in, but only part way. It must not touch the spindle! It's only there to keep some oil in and the chips out of the bushings. Now, if it was the set screw, the pulley should spin smooth and free when the bull gear pin is pulled as mentioned by Brett. If it's a frozen pulley, you will need to work it free... flood with WD40 and work at it. Be sure oil well after the WD40. If the pulley is frozen, you may want to pull the spindle, clean it all up, and replace the bushings before using the back gear much. A dried up bushing will damage the spindle. ------- Re: Backgear Posted by: "Robert Rochelle" irene4popsx~xxyahoo.com Date: Mon Jun 4, 2007 12:54 pm ((PDT)) I hate to bother you, but I have a 618 that I've taken apart, soaked in mineral spirits & gotten cleaned up and am now in the process of reassembling. I have no manual. If I understand your post correctly, the set screw in the bull gear should be tightened and is a real set screw while the one in the pulley stack is just an oil plug? I noticed there is a groove in the spindle where the pulley "setscrew" would align. Mine had some scarring in and around it. Is it necessary to loosen the bullgear setscrew when using the back gears, or will just pulling the pin allow the backgears to work? The pin on mine was pretty beat up because the ball and spring had been lost & the set screw there was being used directly against the pin. Had a hard time finding a spring & ball to work & deburring & polishing the pin up so it would move right, but the set screw I am asking about above appears to be a real set screw meant to be tightened against the spindle and is about 180 dgrees from the screw for the spring/ball that acts as a pin detent. Jackie Rochelle ------- Re: Backgear Posted by: "jmartin957x~xxaol.com" Date: Mon Jun 4, 2007 1:26 pm ((PDT)) The bull gear is meant to ALWAYS stay locked to the spindle. In direct drive (high speeds) the pin in the bull gear locks into the step pulley. The belt drives the step pulley, the step pulley drives the bull gear, the bull gear drives the spindle. In back gear drive (low speeds) the pin in the bull gear is retracted. The belt drives the step pulley, which is free to spin on the spindle. The small gear on the end of the step pulley drives the large gear on the back gear shaft. The small gear on the back gear shaft drives the bull gear, which drives the spindle. Manuals are readily available.... John Martin Cumberland, Maine ------- Re: Backgear Posted by: "Glenn N" sleykinx~xxcharter.net Date: Mon Jun 4, 2007 11:01 pm ((PDT)) I am not sure I completely follow what you are saying but .. The setscrew in the pulley is an oil hole plug. The setscrew down inside the bullgear is .. a setscrew. The setscrew by the pin in the bullgear is just to hold the spring and ball detent in place to keep the pin from moving on its own. All you should have to do to engage the backgears is pull the pin and flip the lever. The groove in the spindle is not supposed to be there but I doubt it has hurt anything. If you loosen the bullgear setscrew and try to run the lathe all sorts of bad things can happen. HTH Glenn N ------- Re: Backgear Posted by: "irene4pops" irene4popsx~xxyahoo.com Date: Tue Jun 5, 2007 5:17 am ((PDT)) OK--thanks. I think I got it all figured out yesterday rotating stuff by hand. I'm still in the process of reassembling. Definitely will be using link belts. If I hadn't stumbled over your post I would have certainly gotten it wrong. ------- Re: my "new" Atlas 10" Lathe [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: "danaz.chandler" djnx~xxieee.org danaz.chandler Date: Thu Jun 7, 2007 7:12 pm ((PDT)) I had my ways done earlier this year and have some observations about this: 1. The surface grinder has a magnetic base. The bed bottom that bolts to the feet are not always going to be registered to the top. So if you clamp the bottom of the bed casting down, it may bow. Grinding it then is bad. In order to do this properly, you have to place the bed, ways down on a surface plate and then grind the bottom flat. Then turn it all over and finish up on the top of the ways. 2. Check way thickness as I found after this about a .006 difference overall...You may then have to grind the underside parallel to the top....Keep this in mind. 3. If you take more than about .010 off of the ways, consider taking the same amount off the apron casting. This will keep the leadscrew centered in the apron gears and half nut. 4. Headstock and tail stock alignment are not affected by the grinding. Just bolt them down again and align the tail stock to the headstock (using centers). 5. Be sure and take all twist and bow out of the bed when bolting it down again. Probably won't be the same as previous. Use a nice level. Hope this helps...Represents my learning curve over the last 4 months... (been back to the surface grinder 3 times...) Dan in Chandler ------- Re: my "new" Atlas 10" Lathe Posted by: "catboat15x~xxaol.com" Date: Fri Jun 8, 2007 8:51 am ((PDT)) If and when you grind your ways it will change the distance from the top of the ways to the lead screw so some adjustments may be necessary at that point. On my 12 inch there are a couple of shims between the cross slide casting and the apron apparently to allow for that possible change in dimension. This distance affects several things, the fit of the half nuts onto the lead screw and the fit of the traversing gear to the rack. So I would think carefully about having ways re-ground. Only if really necessary, not just for appearance. John Meacham from the high deserts of Calif ------- Re: troubleshooting quickchange gearbox[atlas_craftsman] Posted by: "Brett Jones" brettx~xx5foot2.com Date: Mon Jun 11, 2007 11:12 am ((PDT)) Triumph Chopper wrote: > I need some information on troubleshooting a quickchange gearbox on a > 12x36 Atlas lathe. > I'm having trouble shifting the two levers from one slot to another. > They just don't want to go in. The levers slide easily left and right, > but I'm having a devil of a time getting them to line up with the > slots, primarily the ones in the cemter. The right side lever > will easily fo into the slots on the left and right, but lots of > trouble with the other slots. Same for the left lever. > What should I be looking for to see what's causing the problem? > An unrelated question: the rear pully that attaches to the motor - is > it supposed to have two or only one slot? The reason I ask is because > the door rubs on it when I tried to close it. I took the door off to > end the distraction, but I would like to find a solution. The gears in these gearbox run on a common shafts and are adjustable. A few months back I dismantled and cleaned up the QC on my early 12" Craftsman and found during reassembly that some care was needed in correctly positioning the the gears so they line up with the lever gates. I'd pull the gearbox off and look for a loose setscrew in a collar. With the box off aligning the gears to the gate is simple enough. Brett Jones ------- Re: troubleshooting quickchange gearbox Posted by: "James Sterner" jimmy163333x~xxyahoo.com Date: Mon Jun 11, 2007 12:07 pm ((PDT)) I have a different lathe, but with mine I sometimes have to turn the lead screw by hand till the teeth of the gears line up then the lever falls right into place. With the lever in the disengaged mode the lead screw should spin freely with just fingers to move it. If that doesn't work you might have years of dried crudded up oil and or grease that might need to be cleaned out and then the gears should be re-oiled with a good spindle oil. At least 50% and maybe more of my back-gear teeth were filled with this very hard gunk that I had to scrape out with a screw driver. Now the teeth mesh the way they were designed to, and it will help in preventing broken & stripped teeth with them going to their full depth. I hope this helps. Let us know if it doesn't do anything, we can try to come up with another solution. Jim ------- Re: troubleshooting quickchange gearbox Posted by: "Michael Fagan" woodworker88x~xxgmail.com Date: Mon Jun 11, 2007 5:56 pm ((PDT)) If you look up into the underside of the gearbox (kinda hard if you have a cabinet stand with a chip tray, try an inspection mirror and a flashlight), you will see that the levers actually slide back and forth on a single steel shaft, meshing with gears above. If you grab the handles themselves, the levers are likely to tilt rather than slide and bind up on the shafts, particularly if the holes are worn oblong. Your best bet is to grab onto the lower end of the levers, below the handles where they actually go into the gearbox. You should be able to slide the lever much more easily from that position. If the hole is really oblong, disassembling the gearbox, boring out the levers, and bushing them with bronze bushings would help them slide much better without twisting. A better design would be two parallel shafts and bushings, rather than just one. The specific problem you are having is that they are alternately binding a bit and sliding all over the place. Holding the levers farther down will give you more control and help solve this problem. You also need to turn the spindle so that the gear teeth align, particularly when shifting from a higher feed to a lower feed. Michael ------- NOTE TO FILE: Building a stand for a lathe (or any machine) has been discussed in the file Workshop Tips here, and levelling/setting up has been described before. John Meacham has provided an excellent summary of some key points in the next message, which applies to any lathe. ------- Lathe Bench for 618 [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: "catboat15x~xxaol.com" Date: Wed Jun 13, 2007 9:07 am ((PDT)) When we want to build a "bed" for our "babies" there is really one thing to realize. That is that both the head stock and tail stock are in the exact same plane and will remain so. First thing is where are we going to use the lathe. Many of us have been forced to put the family sedan out in the weather so our lathe can remain indoors. Here in the USA many concrete garage floors are not flat and level. Building codes require that a garage floor be finished off with a slope towards the door so that spilled liquids will not puddle in the garage and create a fire hazard. So when you design your bench, check that the area where your bench will be used is truly flat or adjust the leg lengths to make the top just as flat and level as you want it. I had an old Atlas book that recommended a bench top made up of 2 X 4 lumber with the wood set on edge and through bolted with threaded rods. I would not recommend that unless you have a source of well seasoned wood. Some of the so called 2 X 4 I have purchased at my local home center after a few weeks look as if they came out of a propeller factory. (I also build boats, and that is a real problem.) So the laminated ply or metal is a good choice for the bench top. Looking at the worst possible case would be where you tightly bolt all four corners down to a top that changes shape with every change in weather and forces a twist in the bed. This will show up as the lathe will want to turn a taper on a shaft when you needed a parallel shaft. And worse, when you sent the centers in line with the tail stock casting near the head stock for alignment, when the tail stock is slid down to the far end it no longer is in alignment between centers. Still looking at the worst case, if your bench changes with changes in your shop temperature and humidity, the bench top will be constantly pulling at the bed and changing the alignment of your lathe. Finally, when we speak of "leveling" a lathe it is not necessary for the lathe to be level, just that both the head stock feet and the tail stock feet are on the same plane. (A good machinist level is nice, but not necessary.) Some models of the Atlas have only one hole at the tail end for a mounting bolt. (That is the way my present 12 inch model is made.) In my particular situation where I am forced to use my lathe on a wood floor tool shed that is an advantage as I keep the single bolt at the tail stock only finger tight as a positioning means, not to hold the bed down tight to the bench. Many old time shops kept a "test bar" in the tool room for checking the lathe before any critical work was begun. A test bar is a steel (or other metal) shaft about as long as any expected work you contemplate with a ring turned on the end with the bar between centers. Turn the ring as close to the head stock as you can with the bar between centers; turn the bar end for end and turn another ring without moving the tool so you know both rings are the same diameter. Then keep that bar in a safe locaction and if you want to either re-set the centers after turning a taper or to check that the lathe is sill set "level", simply indicate the ring closest to the head stock; then without changing the cross or compound slide move the carriage to the other end and it should indicate the same. Incidentally if you have offset the tail stock for some reason to turn a tapered piece of work and want to reset the tail stock to center again, simply slide the tail stock towards the head and lightly pinch a steel rule between the centers and if the rule is held by the centers at right angles to the bed the centers are in line. (It is also a good check to see if that treasure you see at the garage sale has a badly worn bed near the head stock which is the usual case for an old lathe with many years of use.) Right now I don't have a test bar, I must turn up another. It seems that every time I start a project that test bar in the corner is stock of just the right size for my present project. Also remember the alignment of the tail stock with the head stock is only at the length of your test bar, so check with the rule with the tail stock close to the head and also with the test bar with the tail stock back at the length of our test bar. Have fun and always remember if that tool will cut steel it sure won't have any trouble cutting your flesh. John Meacham from the high deserts of Calif 12 inch Atlas lathe, mini mill, HF band saw and a rusty file. ------- Re: tail stock tight [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: "Brett Jones" brettx~xx5foot2.com Date: Sat Jun 16, 2007 9:01 pm ((PDT)) smitty wrote: > I have a 12/36craftsman deluxe model 101-07403,tail stock needs work. I > need to take it apart but not sure exactly how to go about doing that. Advance the quill until it runs off the threads and then pull it out the rest of the way. If it's sticky, use some sort of penetrating oil to loosen it up. There should be a nut and a locking nut at the hand wheel end. Remove those nuts and, using a soft faced hammer, tap the screw forward a bit to unstick the key; then pull off the hand wheel and remove the key from the shaft. Use a spanner or whatever you have handy to unscrew the cone-shaped bearing/support at the rear of the tail stock. Brett Jones ------- Re: Searching for carriage parts [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: "ChrisandJudy" chrisandjudyx~xxcableone.net Date: Wed Jun 27, 2007 1:11 pm ((PDT)) John Meacham wrote: >>One problem with the Zamac parts -- they are difficult to repair. Some have reported that with a good cleaning a material like JBweld can be used if the part is not under a lot of pressure, sometimes worth a try.<< I have a 12X36 Craftsman 101.07380 and have had to have some Zamac parts repaired. I have a friend who was a welder for Boeing Aircraft for 35 years. I took my carriage transmission to him to be repaired. He has a very nice Mig welder and was able to weld the pieces back together for me in a minute or two. Most of the time was spent setting up the welder. My point is a really good welding shop should be able to weld Zamac. NOT A MUFFLER SHOP. A professional welding shop. Both my repairs are over a year with no problems. [ChrisandJudy] ------- Re: Searching for carriage parts Posted by: "Brett Jones" brettx~xx5foot2.com Date: Wed Jun 27, 2007 6:10 pm ((PDT)) One thing to keep in mind, a lot of these Zamak part are available via Clausing and often the new stuff is cheaper than the parts selling on ebay. The leadscrew support at the tail stock end is a common failure point. Other common failure points include the gear cage in the apron and though it's not a Zamak part, the change gear yokes seem to crack a lot. I assume people are just doing something really dumb to break the yokes. My 10-F has a shop built leadscrew support and apron gear cage made from aluminum. Both work well and I have no complaints. The Craftsman 12" I'm going through came to me with every Zamak part in the apron other than the halfnuts broken. It was a mess. I used Ebay as a parts source for the repairs. Brett Jones ------- NOTE TO FILE: The following message in atlas_craftsman was off subject but has good information on hand scraping a lathe bed. ------- Re: Any one have experence rebuilding the Quick change gear box? Posted by: "pete_mclaughlin_93555" goldassayerx~xxverizon.net Date: Sun Jul 1, 2007 9:16 am ((PDT)) I have an atlas 10f with a 54 inch bed. The way to test is to put marking compound on the surface of the bed and invert the bed on a large surface plate. Move the bed back and forth by 1/2 inch then turn it over on a work bench and view the results. From this you will know where the wear is located. Put the bed back on the surface plate and check it with feeler gages to determine the amount of wear. I used a chinese 2ft by 3ft surface plate to check my lathe and then hand scraped the bed back into alignment with the surface plate. Use a large angle plate mounted on the surface plate to hold the lathe bed edges at right angles to the top of the lathe bed while checking the wear on the edges. Then scrape the sides parallel with each other and at right angles to the top of the bed to get your lathe bed back to factory condition. On my lathe the bottom of the bed was not worn enough to require any work. After doing this on my lathe I found that the wear on the saddle had pushed the lead screw down by 0.025 when engaged with the half nut. I used Moglice to lift the saddle back up to 0.005 above the centerline between the head stock and tail stock support points and ended up the a nice working lathe again. Hand scraping the lathe takes a lot of hours. This was my first scraping effort and it turned out well. If you have never scraped before, get the video on scraping from www.machinerepair.com I found it really shortens the learning curve to see it done. Have fun Pete ------- Re: Increasing spindle bore [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: "jmartin957x~xxaol.com" Date: Thu Aug 16, 2007 4:49 am ((PDT)) kiramunchx~xxsympatico.ca writes: > Has anybody drilled or bored the spindle of their 12" atlas/craftsman > to about 1"? It's roughly .917 in stock configuration and 1" bore is > such a handy hole to have. Thanx You sure about that bore? If you are, someone has already bored out your spindle, and the Morse #3 taper is holding on less than a half inch of its length. How do your centers run/hold? Atlas made the spindle bore 1/32" over 3/4", which allows passing 3/4" stock easily. They could have made it larger, and fitted a Morse #4 taper. They could also have increased the swing, and the center-to-center distance, and made a larger lathe overall. Had Atlas felt that the spindle could handle a larger bore, I'm guessing they might have given it one. I will say, though, that when the Atlas lathes were produced there was less attention paid to spindle bore than there is today. So, maybe you can go a bit larger. Before you take it to over an inch, you'll want to do some careful measuring and thinking. John Martin ------- Re: Increasing spindle bore Posted by: "Michael Fagan" woodworker88x~xxgmail.com Date: Thu Aug 16, 2007 8:26 am ((PDT)) A #3 Morse taper has a large diameter of 0.937, so I'd guess he measured at the headstock end and didn't know there was a taper there (I've met plenty of people who didn't). I would suggest to the OP to measure at the back end of the spindle and to check the bore all the way through with a piece of bar stock. Also, if the measurement is indeed unusual, try to examine the bore to look for tooling marks from drilling or boring. ------- Re: Increasing spindle bore Posted by: "kiramunchx~xxsympatico.ca" Date: Fri Aug 17, 2007 6:38 am ((PDT)) I did not realize that the spindle bore was tapered and with someone mentioning that the bottoms of keys were struck after boring, I think I will leave well enough alone! Thanx guys for the replies. I am brand spanking new to the forum and have just picked up a 12" craftsman circa 1952. Thanx again ------- Re: Quick-Change Installation [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: "Jon Elson" elsonx~xxpico-systems.com Date: Sat Sep 1, 2007 10:50 am ((PDT)) ebrucehunter wrote: > I have owned a 1930's 10" Atlas lathe for about 48 years. I am sort of > the second owner, as the man who bought the shop tools from the > original purchaser's estate wanted only the woodworking tools and sold > me the lathe. Over most of the subsequent years I have wanted a quick- > change, but always thought I would come across a 12" lathe with a quick- > change, and buy it as a replacement. But now, I have developed a > sentimental attachment to this lathe and plan to keep it. My question > is, if I bought a quick-change from a later model lathe, is it going to > be reasonably practicable to adapt it to my old Atlas? My lathe has > the 5/8", un-slotted lead screw (without power crossfeed). Could I > simply machine a bushing to adapt a quick-change from a lathe with 3/4" > leadscrew? I think, maybe. Adapting the leadscrew is not likely to be the big problem. Yours is a "D" model, and I don't know how much is different there. Probably not much, but just somthing to worry over. The entire drive train from the just below the spindle gear is replaced in this changeover, so make sure you get the reversing tumbler and the "harp" bracket that holds the gear train. You can use your change gears to set up metric and special threads that the QC won't provide with the normal settings, so keep them. > What kind of problems are likely to be encountered in adapting the > left side reversing mechanism, etc. I will value comments > and suggestions from those who have been through this. This is all part of the QC mechanism, and it should bolt onto most of the same brackets as the change-gear harp. The cover plates over the gears are totally different, however. But, those are not critical to making the lathe run. I did one of these conversions on a 10" "F" model (3/4" keyed leadscrew, with power crossfeed, etc.) and I had to fiddle with the index plate where the reversing lever detents were. This may have been due to the mounting position on the lathe, or wear in the gears (all used parts, but in excellent condition). It ran much quieter after adjusting that, but still typically noisy like an Atlas. Jon ------- Big Problem With Stuck Carriage [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: "Dave Grammer" DaveGrammerx~xxcox.net Date: Sun Sep 9, 2007 7:37 am ((PDT)) Hello all. I have been reading posts for a while regarding removing the apron from the carriage. Here is the problem from the beginning. My brother (owner of the lathe) and I were facing off some pipe caps using the power cross feed. We were not using a heavy cut for this operation. Without warning the crossfeed became bound up and everything moving came to a halt. After shutting off the power, I tried to reverse the spindle to maybe back out of the problem and see what was wrong. That part worked to the point of being able to unmesh the power crossfeed. Now, the spindle and the crossfeed will function but, I cannot get the handwheel to traverse. I cannot move the carriage up and down the bed by any means. It appears that the carriage is still connected to the lead screw somehow. I would like to know if there is some way to take the apron mounted gears off and remove the apron without removing the lead screw at the same time. Thank you in advance for any help. Dave, in Kansas ------- Re: Big Problem With Stuck Carriage Posted by: "Russ Kepler" russx~xxkepler-eng.com Date: Sun Sep 9, 2007 8:26 am ((PDT)) It sounds as though something in the traverse gears is messed up. I'd take off the tailstock and remove the screws holding the tail end of the leadscrew to the bed (and the sctscrews holding the leadscrew to the clutch on the QC box, if you have one). If you can pull the leadscrew through a apron you're good to drop the apron, if not you can see if you can pull the whole carriage assembly towards the tailstock with the leadscrew. ------- Re: Big Problem With Stuck Carriage Posted by: "Brett Jones" brettx~xx5foot2.com Date: Sun Sep 9, 2007 8:27 am ((PDT)) The screw pases through a gear mounted to the apron. This gear has a key in it. I'd guess this key sheared off and it's bound up between the OD of the screw and the ID of the gear. If you can't slide the screw out of the apron, take the apron and the screw off as one part. Remove the screw support at the tail stock end and move the carriage to that end. It should carry the screw with it. Then remove the apron from the carriage. Brett Jones ------- Re: Big Problem With Stuck Carriage Posted by: "Jon Elson" elsonx~xxpico-systems.com Date: Sun Sep 9, 2007 10:27 am ((PDT)) You've probably partially sheared off the key in the leadscrew or broken the bracket that carries the carriage gear train, or possibly both. You will probably have to disengage the carriage gear train to move the carriage, and you need to do that to get the apron off. The left end of the leadscrew just slips into the QC or reversing box. So remove the right bracket of the L.S. The carriage may be able to travel now to the right, pulling the LS out from the left end. If so, you can now drop the apron by removing the two large Phillips screws on top of the carriage. If not, remove the 3 small Phillips screws around the carriage handwheel. This will loosen the leadscrew and the carriage gear train. Also loosen the large Phillips screws on the carriage, and you should have enough clearance between the pinion and the rack to slide the carriage to the right. You most likely have a mess in there, and several parts will need to be replaced. Some people have had good luck making a brass or steel hub for the bevel gear that slides on the leadscrew, then boring out the existing gear and using Loctite or pins to fit the gear onto the new hub. Jon ------- Jumping out of back gear [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: "robert fox" thefoxesden3x~xxpeak.org Date: Fri Oct 19, 2007 1:55 pm ((PDT)) I have a 618-101-07301 which has been working great for a long time. About a month ago I took it apart and painted it and cleaned it up. While I was at it I replaced a few gib screws and the index pin. At any rate after reassembly I am having the back gear handle jump out of engagement. It does this very slowly taking perhaps a full minute to jump. I have checked pulley alignment and tension and they seem to be ok. Jumps out quicker if I am making a cut rather than idliing. Feed screw engagement makes no diff. ANY IDEAS THAT MAY HELP? Bob ------- Re: Jumping out of back gear Posted by: "Rob Purdy" kb7wnzx~xxhotmail.com Date: Fri Oct 19, 2007 2:27 pm ((PDT)) You need to adjust the throw on the handle. It's not engaging the gear sufficiently. BTDT had the same problem! Rob ------- Re: Split Nut for 10" F series [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: "William Abernathy" williamx~xxinch.com Date: Tue Nov 13, 2007 11:55 am ((PST)) mclkev33 wrote: > I was given an Atlas lathe a few years ago for christmas. The > previous owner said he ran the carriage into the headstock. This I > would guess is the reason for the worn threads on the split nut. I > was wondering where I could find a replacement for the split nut. I > also have alot of play in my compound rest assembly. I think the nut > that travels along the carriage saddle screw is worn. Can I get a new > one of those. Thanks You might want to check in with the Atlas/Clausing Service Center at: http://www.atlas-press.com/service.htm They don't do internet orders, so you will need to call them. Before they can tell you if they have the part (and how much), you'll need a part number. It will be most helpful if you find the serial number on your lathe first, so that they can ID the part numbers on their diagrams. Before you give up on the cross-slide nut, do yourself a favor and put a washer under the bolt that anchors it to the cross-slide. I had unacceptable play, and was getting ready to fab a new one when I took a good look at the parts and realized that the unsupported short 1/4" bolt holding it together was the source of the wobble. Good luck, William A. ------- New Lathe with a broken Gear Case [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: "Colin Cheese" cheesecolinx~xxaol.com Date: Mon Nov 19, 2007 5:58 am ((PST)) Hi, I just joined this group having bought an Atlas 10 inch lathe off a local farmer - am in the UK. It runs, looks complete and is not rusty, but very dirty. Am planning to strip and refurb it but probably not a full restoration at this stage. I found a parts list in files which is going to be very useful - thanks. The main problem with it is that the Gear Case (10F-11?) is broken. What is the situation with this part? Are they obtainable or has anyone successfully made a replacement? Advice would be appreciated. regards Colin ------- Re: New Lathe with a broken Gear Case Posted by: "Don Smith" airxxxwolfx~xxyahoo.com Date: Mon Nov 19, 2007 8:04 am ((PST)) Hi Colin: Welcome to the group. The gearbox on my 10" Atlas lathe was broken in several pieces and I tried to get a replacement off eBay but the prices they were going for was more than I was willing to pay, so I made my own instead. It was actually very easy to make and is much stronger than the original. I "glued" all the broken pieces of the broken gearcase back together with JB Weld so I could take accurate measurements to make the new gearcase. I cut small pieces of steel plate on a scroll saw, and simply clamped the first 2 pieces to a block of wood to hold them in position for mig welding, then kept making and adding a piece at a time until it was finished. The piece that the gear spindle goes through was machined from a bolt. I simply cut off both ends of the bolt and bored a slightly smaller diameter hole through it than I needed for the gear spindle and finished off the hole with the correct size reamer. I didn`t bore a hole in the new gearcase for the leadscrew to pass through because I was in a hurry and I don`t really do anything on my lathe where I would need the leadscrew, but at some point in time I will remove the gearcase and bore the hole for the leadscrew. Anyway, here is a link to a phoho of my new gearcase installed on my 10" Atlas. http://tinyurl.com/24l7r8 Don ------- Re: New Lathe with a broken Gear Case Posted by: "Brett Jones" brettx~xx5foot2.com Date: Mon Nov 19, 2007 10:05 am ((PST)) The part is available new from Clausing. At some point this part on my 10-F was replaced with a shop built part made from a block of aluminum. If you have the tools, building one is not that hard. It's not a precision part. Brett Jones ------- NOTE TO FILE: The following conversation on Atlas spindle removal comes up periodically. Sometimes an owner's experiences and techniques differ a bit. For more on the subject, also see the thread "Timken Removal & Fitting" starting Jan 12, 2004 which is found above in this file. ------- Spindle Removal Help [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: "kippershd" kippersx~xxcomcast.net Date: Sun Dec 23, 2007 8:59 am ((PST)) Hi All, I am new to machining and new to this group. Great site - Thank you. I have an Atlas model 3981. I have been trying to get a good surface finish and have had no luck with AL or SS. I have been using carbide inserts. I have tried running the jibs tight, spinning fast - slow, high feed - low feed. can't get it right. So, I tried to adjust the spindle by tightening collar B. That did not seem to do anything. Even tightening it beyond the 1/16th of a turn. The spindle would still turn very free and easy. I then decided to remove and inspect the bearings. This is where I get into trouble. I have removed collar B, gear M, key N and collar O. I have loosened both set screws in collar L and the set screw in gear D. Gear D can now slide on the spindle. The stepped pulley is loose and will slide left and right. The Spindle is still as tight as it was before all of this. I have covered the gear train end of the spindle and tapped with a hammer - nothing moves. Am I missing something? Do I need a bigger hammer? Thank you for any help, Kip ------- Re: Spindle Removal Help Posted by: "vance_wiley" vance_wileyx~xxyahoo.com Date: Sun Dec 23, 2007 10:15 am ((PST)) Kip: I have had the same experience with my 101.28910 that you are having. In my case I found the small bearing cone at the left end of the spindle was simply tight on the spindle. It appears you have covered all the important items to loosen/remove, and if the gear D is free the only way to remove the spindle is to drive it out. I used a deadblow hammer and only hit it with increasing intensity and no more, Mine finally moved before I became too concerned. Note that there is a key under gear D and this must remain free to prevent your driving gear D into the casting and possibly breaking teeth or causing other damage. The Atlas instructions recommend two blocks of wood between D and the casting to prevent this but if it is loose the blocks seem unnecessary. The inner cones of the bearings simply fit the spindle VERY tightly. I think this is a good thing. There has been some discussion on this forum about how tightly the large cone fits, including the need to have the bearing pressed on the spindle and heating the cone to expand it. With the hollow spindle it might be possible to chill the spindle by passing some cold fluid thru it - the electronics types use a can of cold spray on circuit boards and components and this might work. Possibly using Break Free or similar solvents would help. Protect the threads for collar B when driving the spindle. During reassembly, I found tightening the set screw in gear D caused the gear to move just a bit to the left - the tapered side of the set screw was just engaging the side of the deformation in the spindle and tightening the angled set screw caused the gear to move left. I finally just had to accept the position, although I would have preferred it to be a tad farther right. Best of luck, Vance [later message:] Also - if you jump to messages #14274, 76, and 98 (and associated messages on that thread) there are some good ideas and comments on spindle removal. Louis has some great comments in #17276. ------- Re: Spindle Removal Help Posted by: "carvel webb" carvelwx~xxabsamail.co.za Date: Sun Dec 23, 2007 11:40 am ((PST)) I always get nervous when it comes to hammering spindles. Have you thought of making up a simple puller with a short length of pipe over the spindle nose, a couple of pieces of flat bar or large washers, and a length of say 1/2" screwed rod through the spindle ? Mind the key doesn't jam. Regards, Carvel ------- Re: Spindle Removal Help - done - Thanks Posted by: "kippershd" kippersx~xxcomcast.net Date: Sun Dec 23, 2007 9:23 pm ((PST)) Vance, Thanks for your help. and the other message numbers. That was my issue. The spindle was hung up on the rear inner race. A little cleaning and a many taps with a hammer (i did protect the spindle with wood) and the spindle came out. Everything looked great - went back together - and I was able to adjust it per the procedure in the manual. The surface finish was greatly improved; but, I think I still need to go work on speed, bit type, and learn how to grind a bit. Thanks again for the help. Kip ------- Boing! where did that go? [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: "Steve Mayall" stevemayallx~xxfastmail.fm Date: Fri Feb 8, 2008 10:12 pm ((PST)) You have to laugh... Well I got the 'ole headstock gear/bearing assembly out and turned and pulled the locking pin out of the bull wheel. It wasn't too hard. What also came out was the small pin that pops into the two indents in the locking pin which fell through the hole in the bull wheel into the plastic pulley system. Despite a tremendous fight put up by the pin, which I think was stuck to a bit of grease inside, I managed to shake it back out. Sense of humour reaches high peak now as frustration builds up... Trouble is, I can't see how to get the darn thing back in again and hold it down while inserting the locking pin. If you can imagine it, there's a hole perpendicular to the bull wheel which accomodates the locking pin. There's another hole inside this hole in line with the bull wheel which contains a spring. I can get the small pin back in and hold it down with a screwdriver, but then the screwdriver's in the way. If there are any blinding flashes of insight out there, I'd be very grateful for them as my lathe no longer works and I'm feeling pretty dense. Cheers Steve ------- Re: Boing! where did that go? Posted by: "catboat15x~xxaol.com" Date: Sat Feb 9, 2008 12:55 pm ((PST)) I hope by now you have that dreaded pin, spring and follower back in your lathe. If your lathe is the 10 or 12 inch model watch out for the grub (set) screw in the main cone set of pulleys. That is NOT a set (grub) screw but is in there to allow you to oil the cone pulleys when they must turn on the spindle when in back gear. So when you oil up your lathe take that screw out and put some oil down the hole and replace the screw (Not tight, just to seal off that hole). Many of our "old" lathes have never been oiled at that place and you find when going into back gear that the pulleys will not spin on the spindle since crud, rust what ever has sealed the cone pulleys to the spindle. If nothing else be sure and get the Atlas book "How to run a lathe" and it spells out all the oil and grease points you should lube up at every use. (Some points say, once a week, but in our use if like mine it may sit for several weeks between use. Therefore I oil every oil point before each use. ------- Re: Boing! where did that go? Fixed it! Posted by: "Steve Mayall" stevemayallx~xxfastmail.fm Date: Sun Feb 10, 2008 6:58 am ((PST)) Hi All: Thanks very much for all your replies. I managed to get the darn pin back in again and the locking pin inserted. While I was there, I took the grub screw out of the pulley and dropped some oil down it as advised. The procedure for re-inserting the small pin inside the hole is as follows: 1) Undo the grub screw on the side of the bull wheel and slide the bull wheel towards the chuck end, creating a gap between the bull gear and the pulleys. You will see a small cut-out on the edge (pulley side) of the bull wheel above the locking pin hole. There is a hole in the bull wheel which lines up with the small pin hole. Someone has thought this out! 2) Get a 2.5mm welding rod (or similar) and scratch off the flux for a couple of inches. Insert this into the cut-out hole, leaving enough space for the little pin to fit in. 3) Using fine nose pliers, insert the small pin in its hole. It won't go down far, as it's spring loaded. Press down on the top of the pin with the welding rod, holding it in place. Let go with the pliers and push the pin down with the rod. 4) Insert the locking pin upside down until it is past the small pin and remove the welding rod. 5) Rotate the locking pin until a very satisfying click is heard. This is the small pin locating itself in the indents in the locking pin. 6) Drink more beer than you can really manage. It's all back together now and working! Some of you will see your own ideas above :-) Cheers Steve ------- Lining up the tailstock [atlas618lathe] Posted by: "Dan Margolien" danmargolienx~xxyahoo.com Date: Sun Feb 10, 2008 7:10 pm ((PST)) I'm having trouble getting the tailstock lined up on the chuck centerline. It is too high. How important is leveling and setting the machine? ------- Re: Lining up the tailstock Posted by: "cbrumbelowx~xxcomcast.net" cbrumbelowx~xxcomcast.net Date: Mon Feb 11, 2008 8:53 am ((PST)) If the problem is with the tailstock and not your technique, anything you turn between centers will have a taper related to its length and the amount of misalignment. Likewise, any time you attempt to drill a piece mounted to the headstock (chucked or on the faceplate) the hole will be less than perfect -- slightly oversize and/or tapered. You should be attempting to align a known good center in the known clean tailstock socket with a known good center in the known clean headstock center. And, the tailstock ram should be drawn as far into the tailstock as possible without losening the center. And, the ram and the tailstock should both be tightened using the clamps provided. Both centers should be tight in their sockets. See: http://www.brownells.com/aspx/NS/store/ProductDetail.aspx?p=694&ti tle=LATHE%20CENTERING%20BUTTONS for some tooling to help with the task. Charles ------- Re: Lining up the tailstock Posted by: "n5kzw" n5kzwx~xxarrl.net Date: Mon Feb 11, 2008 9:35 am ((PST)) Lathe centering buttons are very easy to make on the lathe. Regards, Ed ------- Re: Lining up the tailstock Posted by: "n5kzw" n5kzwx~xxarrl.net Date: Mon Feb 11, 2008 9:48 am ((PST)) Dan, that is rather an odd condition. First, I would true up the center and check the tailstock to make sure there is no dirt or dings in the tailstock ram taper. Then I would check the bottom of the tailstock casting to make sure there isn't any dirt or dings that would elevate the tailstock. If that checks out, try a straight edge on the bed to make sure it isn't bowed up in the center and that there are no dings in the bed to lift the tailstock casting. If all of that checks out, then you may need to start shimming under the headstock. It is not necessary to level your lathe. It is very important that the ways be dead flat when the lathe is bolted to its stand. The easiest way for most people to accomplish this task is to use a machinist's level (which results in the bed being leveled). To test your lathe, try turning a stout bar between centers along its full length. Then accurately measure both ends of the bar. If both ends have the same diameter, you are good to go. (Don't worry about the center of the bar, it will end up fatter.) Regards, Ed ------- Re: Lining up the tailstock Posted by: "ron Pat" ronpat0471x~xxyahoo.com Date: Mon Feb 11, 2008 12:32 pm ((PST)) Dan the first thing is to make sure you're using a solid center in the tail stock. Not a bearing type center. A lot of people don't believe how much trouble they cause. Especially the ones most of us can afford. ------- Re: Lining up the tailstock Posted by: "Jake" jake09305x~xxbellsouth.net Date: Mon Feb 11, 2008 12:34 pm ((PST)) Amen to Charles' note. On to the leveling question...the longer and heaver the lathe the more important it becomes. The lathe is built and adjusted by the manufacturer on a flat level surface with no stresses on the bed. You would like to replicate all those conditions in your shop. That said, I suppose you are talking of an Atlas 618 sized lathe in this group. In mounting the smaller lathes on a wooden work bench there is a danger of warping the lathe bed by pulling down on the mounting screws against a stout table top that is not perfectly flat and going to stay that way forever!! Even a 4,000 pound Monarch will deform if the concrete mounting surface is not made perfectly flat and level. Wooden work benches are subject to warping and twisting over time. If you are fortunate to have a metal table, level the top then shim and level the lathe in both directions before tightening the screws. Check again. Incidentally, use a machinist level, not a carpenter's level. Jake ------- Re: Lining up the tailstock Posted by: "Hank" n1ltvx~xxyahoo.com n1ltv Date: Mon Feb 11, 2008 6:18 pm ((PST)) "Chris M" chrism3667x~xxyahoo.com wrote: > I was of the persuasion that the heavier lathes are > more prone to warpage then a small one... I think the thinking is that the bigger lathes (size and weight) are prone to distortion from their own weight (when not level); and the smaller ones, due to their being less rigid, and due to the fact that they're often mounted to wood topped benches, are prone to distortion from being torqued down to a surface that's nonplanar to start with, or may easily become so with changes in humidity or just plain aging. Jake, you did a fine job with your explanation. Hank ------- Re: Lining up the tailstock Posted by: "Mike" oldtoolx~xxfvi.net Date: Wed Feb 13, 2008 9:30 am ((PST)) Hi Dan, I had the same situation on aa Atlas 12" that I moved along last year. The tailstock was 1/8" too high. I have no idea why. Maybe it came from a donor machine? Offset is easy since you can adjust that. Too high is a different matter. If you shim the headstock, you unseat the gear train. The only remedy I could figure was to mill the base of the tailstock. Start with the buttons to measure the amount of height mismatch, and mill accordingly. I chose to sell my lathe as was (With full disclosure). There are too many good lathes out there to waste time fiddling with a problematic machine. Do you want to be a machinist or a mechanic? Mike ------- Re: Lining up the tailstock Posted by: "Dan Margolien" danmargolienx~xxyahoo.com Date: Thu Feb 14, 2008 9:19 am ((PST)) Well- I took the tail stock and carriage off, and stoned the ways and gibs, and all surfaces. I then stoned the tapered centers. I put centers in the headstock and tail stock, and the set over was off, but the vertical alignment looked fine. I then put the 3 jaw chuck on and put in a drill blank and used a test indicator and base off the ways and found only .001 runout of the chuck and only about .001 lackof parallel in 4". Then I put the drill blank in the 3 jaw chuck in the tail stock and was within .002" for height. So, it appears I had burrs in the system and aggravated the problem. I set up to bore a hole and did not have any drill wobble. I think all is back to normal. ------- Re: Lining up the tailstock Posted by: "Jake" jake09305x~xxbellsouth.net jake09305 Date: Thu Feb 14, 2008 12:54 pm ((PST)) Dan: Not to dampen your enthusiasm...three-jaw chucks and the likes can vary all over the place depending the on the diameter to which they are set. I have "set-true" chuck that I can zero in at a half inch and it is out .005 at one inch. There is nothing accurate about a three jaw chuck ...it is just convenient. There are accurate three-jaw chucks but they cost more than my shop!! Now, you can set a four-jaw as accurately as you want but it is time consuming. I wrote a one page rant about chucks in the Home Shop Machinist July/August 1996 if you got a copy. If you are interested I will send you a copy. ------- Re: vibration on 12" lathe [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: "jim_popa" jim_popax~xxyahoo.com Date: Mon Feb 25, 2008 10:11 am ((PST)) markus fitz wrote: > hi guys, i own a craftsman 12 inch lathe and like it just fine, the problem is has vibration when i run it. i was wondering if anyone has similar problems and what the fix would be. thought about making new motor and drive pulley, the outside ones only since the motor seems to bounce just a little bit. if so, any advice on making the pullies.thanks < Markus: Is your lathe the mod. 101.07403? If so, vibration is practically built into the machine. I'm talking about the one that has the entire motor/countershaft assembly hanging on the back, and has two mounting holes at the headstock end and only one at the back. I've owned a couple of 6" A/C's, a 10" and two 12" models, and the one I described above was the worst to get a good finish on because any vibration reverberated from motor/countershaft to the bed and back. I put the segmented belts on, tightened everything and still bad finish. Single phase motors inherently put a 60 cycle "pulse" into the drive train and can affect finish, but that wasn't the main problem. The motor has to move up and down to change speeds (belt position) and tighten the belt so you cannot just clamp it in position.....My solution was to cut a piece of 4 X 6 about 6" long and cut a taper so that I could wedge it by hand under the motor plate, AFTER adjustments and belts were tightened. IMMEDIATE improvement, and I could occasionally get a mirror finish on aluminum. Your mileage may vary. Jim ------- JB Weld [atlas618lathe] Posted by: "jtiggr" jtiggr713x~xxyahoo.com Date: Sun Feb 24, 2008 6:51 pm ((PST)) This is a two part question (pun intended): Regarding JB Weld: I am repairing an iron casting in a couple of places. 1. One location is the drilled & tapped hole where a brass machine screw fits. Or should fit, but doesn't because the side is broken out. The thread is non-standard for today, so I can't get a tap for it. Therefore, what release agent can I use on the screw to prevent the JB Weld from sticking when I glob it on the area of the casting needing the repair? I'm thinking a light coating of oil or grease. Someone has even suggested soapy water. Any suggestions? 2. Another area has external threads, and again, the side is broken off. That one is simple since I can put the JB Weld on without problem, and intend to use my 618 to chase the old threads while creating new threads on the hardened JB Weld. I'm intending to use a HSS tool for this, but are there any cautions? I.E.: go slower, go faster, cut lighter, cut heavier??? Thanks for the help guys. Travis ------- Re: JB Weld Posted by: "Michael Fagan" woodworker88x~xxgmail.com Date: Sun Feb 24, 2008 7:58 pm ((PST)) I'd try silicone spray. Even if it sticks a little, you should be able to unscrew it. You might experiment on extra screws beforehand. It machines somewhere in between plastic and metal. The key is to create a good bonding surface, so the entire patch doesn't just pop off. Light sandblasting or beadblasting is ideal, tumbling is good, a wire brush (power or hand) will work if you can't be too aggressive on the whole part. Also, if you can create an interlocking "key" ie an undercut that is filled with the epoxy, it greatly strengthens the assembly. I assume you are using the traditional JB weld, the overnight type, but for quick repairs and experiments, you might want to try using JBQuik, their rapid setting version that is ready to go in less than 30 minutes. I think it's a nearly identical material with a hardener that's faster acting. I often use a little JB Quik or some superglue to hold an assembly together and in position, then add larger amounts of the JB Weld to provide the real strength. ------- Re: JB Weld Posted by: "Elton E. (Tony) Clark" eltonclarkx~xxgmail.com Date: Mon Feb 25, 2008 9:37 am ((PST)) *JB Weld is a valuable resource. The family vacuum, a Hoover with the self propel feature quit "propelling" last week. The tech at the vac store showed me the mount points of the plastic cased transmission had failed, probably due to a drop or bouncing over threshholds. New transmission installed: $179!!! I gathered it up, took it home, slathered the breaks with JB Weld and twisted wire to hold it in place. Runs like new!!!! * Tony ------- Re: JB Weld Posted by: "dperras" dperrasx~xxyahoo.com Date: Mon Feb 25, 2008 1:48 pm ((PST)) Hi Travis: I have a little experience with diferent types of epoxy and release papers and have found that teflon tape wrapped around the screw will do the trick. As always, try the method you wish to use in a trial run to test your results. Regards Dave ------- Fixing dings in Ways? [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: "borne2fly" borne2flyx~xxyahoo.com Date: Wed Feb 27, 2008 4:04 pm ((PST)) Is there a way to fill in all the dings in the Ways? I've seen a number of lathe beds that had very little wear but I didn't buy because of all the dings. JB Weld? Epoxy? Solder? I realize a lot of it is just cosmetic and doesn't effect the accuracy of the machine, but I've always been curious if these things can be patched. ------- Re: Fixing dings in Ways? Posted by: "Jon Elson" elsonx~xxpico-systems.com Date: Wed Feb 27, 2008 6:17 pm ((PST)) No, don't do any of these things. Just use a hard Arkansas stone to gently remove any high spots around the dings. You won't be able to get epoxies to stick to a small ding in a lathe bed, and you don't want to take a huge blowtorch to a precision cast iron part to get it hot enough to solder. Big gouges can be filled with special gouge filler material, such as is available from Devitt machinery, the US reps for Moglice, the castable way liner material. But, no Atlas bed is really big enough to need such techniques. Jon ------- Re: Fixing dings in Ways? Posted by: "jerdalx~xxsbcglobal.net" Date: Wed Feb 27, 2008 8:22 pm ((PST)) Yes. I have filled dings and scrapes with epoxy. Regular, clear epoxy. You have to wash with solvent a couple times, but then you can fill it in, letting it mound up a bit. After curing, you use a "burr file" (a chunk of single cut file that you have rubbed on an oilstone to knock off the sharp tips of the teeth). That will take off anything that sticks up, but stop cutting and just glide when the surface is smooth. I agree with others that for small dings it isn't worth the effort, and may not even work well. But it has worked well for me on some gouges that are evidence that one of the previous owners of my machine was some sort of cretinous lout. You still see them but you can't feel them. The fix has lasted several years now. JT ------- Cross slide pivot pins [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: "porscheman54" james.ricex~xxgmail.com Date: Sat Mar 8, 2008 8:05 am ((PST)) Does anyone know of a good method of removing the pins from the cross slide tool post pivot? I've pulled the Allen head set screws but I can't get the pins out to remove the pivot. I'm thinking they are either rusted in place or deformed by over-tightening of the set screws. ------- Re: Cross slide pivot pins Posted by: "Glenn N" sleykinx~xxcharter.net Date: Sat Mar 8, 2008 9:36 am ((PST)) The only thing that will hold them is crud/rust. If your compound will swivel with the screws out, work it around while lifting as the pins are tapered on the inside and will push themselves out eventually. Kroil, Kroil, Kroil :) ------- Re: Cross slide pivot pins Posted by: "Russ Kepler" russx~xxkepler-eng.com Date: Sat Mar 8, 2008 9:40 am ((PST)) I've had some luck pulling them out using a neodymium magnet on the end of a brass tube. It can be used to help encourage them towards you while you're working the compound base around and pulling up. For *real* fun try pulling the the same sort of pins from the nose of a Bridgeport shaping attachment. ------- Re: Cross slide pivot pins Posted by: "porscheman54" james.ricex~xxgmail.com Date: Sat Mar 8, 2008 9:57 am ((PST)) I'll keep trying to work it loose and keep soaking it in penetrating oil. My compound is really, really stiff from rust. Everything else loosened up with some 20w and exercise, but the compound swivel doesn't seem to have been moved in ages. Worse case, I can pick up another on eBay. ------- Handles [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: "porscheman54" james.ricex~xxgmail.com Date: Tue Mar 11, 2008 1:40 pm ((PDT)) After unpacking a new carriage assembly from eBay that was shipped with an intact cross-slide handle and unpacked with the small end of the handle snapped cleanly off, I have been considering other options. Has anyone else fitted more durable handles or hand wheels to their 618 lathes? Since both the cross-slide and compound handles are broken on my lathe and I'm not really looking forward to writing a check to Sears or Clausing for almost $200 for the handles, I'm open to suggestions. ------- Re: Handles Posted by: "n8as1x~xxaol.com" Date: Tue Mar 11, 2008 1:54 pm ((PDT)) i made a compound for an antique lathe & turned up a copy of crftsmn double ended handle out of mild steel .turned body & locktited handles in ....old files ground /honed like wood chisels & used w/ scraping cut turned to rounds just fine ....run back/side end of tool holder up close to work or make a decent rest out of angle.....hand turning was common 150 yrs ago .....if u do this ,check in for more details...one must be CAREFUL , starting w/ handles for tools best wishes docn8as ------- Re: Back Gears [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: "jmartin957x~xxaol.com" Date: Sat Apr 5, 2008 2:33 pm ((PDT)) In a message dated 4/5/08 lipscomb_jeffx~xxyahoo.com writes: > I have a CRAFTSMAN/ATLAS 10107403 Dates to 1951. The small back gear > was broken when I got it. I replaced it. When you engage the back > gear everything locks up. The small gear on the head stock can be > locked to the spindle or spin free. Letting it spine free the back > will move lots of noise. Lock it to the spindle and nothing moves. > What is the back gear for and how do you adjust it. JEFF There are two gears on the spindle. The large one at the right end (the bull gear) is keyed to the spindle, and thus locked to it. The small gear is connected to the step pulley, which spins free on the spindle. There are screws in the pulley which look like setscrews, but are really oil hole plugs. Remove and oil regularly - that's how oil gets to the bearings inside the pulley and allows it to spin. The step pulley and small gear may be locked to the spindle by the pin in the side of the bull gear. Push the pin in (to the left) to lock, pull out to let the pulley and gear freewheel. To run in direct drive (high speeds), push the bull gear pin in and rotate the back gears out of mesh with the back gear lever. To run in back gear drive (low speeds), pull the bull gear pin out and rotate the back gear assembly into mesh with the spindle gears. Drive will be from the step pulley to the small spindle gear (which spins freely on the spindle) to the large back gear to the small back gear to the bull gear. The step pulley and the small attached gear will spin much faster than the spindle. John Martin ------- Re: New guy here... [ACTUALLY BACKLASH PROBLEM][atlas_craftsman] Posted by: "Eric Crum" ericthenorse2002x~xxsbcglobal.net Date: Sat Apr 12, 2008 11:29 am ((PDT)) > Are you sure about the condition of the brass nut on the cross slide > screw? The slop can be snugged up to some extent with the nut on > handle. Yes, I am sure... I started by removing all of the slack in the lead screw, then, when I still had lots of slop, I pulled the cross slide apart. The nut looks like either it was not properly lubed, or it sucked a piece of metal into it... When I thread it onto the lead screw by hand, it is verry loose and wobbly. I get about 1/4 turn of slop in the handle before the slide moves... The one for the top slide is in great shape with only a little play. I have the motor set up now, and I am itching to start turning big round things into little round things, but I just can't bring myself to re-assemble a broken tool.. :) ------- Re: New guy here... Posted by: "jmartin957x~xxaol.com" Date: Sat Apr 12, 2008 12:55 pm ((PDT)) There will always be backlash in that feed, and while 25 thousandths is high, it is not excessive. I'd suggest working with it as is. It's not a big job to replace it if you later decide it's necessary. John Martin ------- Re: New guy here... Posted by: "n8as1x~xxaol.com" n8as1x~xxaol.com Date: Sat Apr 12, 2008 11:18 pm ((PDT)) In a message dated 4/12/2008, ericthenorse2002x~xxsbcglobal.net writes: > 25 thousandths is a lot of backlash.... I have already determined that it is too much for me to deal with... I am kind of picky that way... In addition to that, it also has quite a gritty feel to it. Add those two things together, and I can't deal with it... Especially if the parts to remedy it are still available... :) < john martin's advice was sound., as always .....lash means nothing going in same direction, .....when backing off, simply go beyond the lash & back to the number desired.." .it aint CNC "... that said go to it ....! it's ur machine ...be advised tho, that there is wear on the SCREW as well as nut AND that wear is NOT EVEN, more in the well used "sweet zone"....so u will only improve the lash somewhat ....& there is tolerance in the nut /screw as manufactured ( 5-10 thou to add ), SO, if u REALLY want to approach zero, the accepted remedy is to take a cleanup cut on the screw & single point an acme nut thread .....i have singlepointed a 7/16 square thrd nut in the past when cleaning up lash in a compound on a 1892 prentice bro 15 in ......& that combined w/a screw cleanup gives a fairly tight screw/nut .......a new factory nut will help, but if u REALLY ARE PICKY ( & i can understand that ), the above-mentioned route is the one to take. best wishes docn8as PS been there.......1/2x10 alloy steel acme screw & brass nut from MSC for a screw feed quick change attachment i made last year for a 1000# lever feed mill arrived w/ .010 built in tolerance slop .....i shud have made both, & 20 yrs ago wud have .... but just got OLD & lazy .....of course, YOU cud get a nut on the minus side & a screw on the plus side & be home free, or near free .....i didn't. ------- Re: New guy here... Posted by: "jmartin957x~xxaol.com" Date: Sun Apr 13, 2008 4:10 pm ((PDT)) Thanks for the vote of confidence, Doc. As you said, backlash is just something you learn to work with - it'll always be there. Maybe he'll get really lucky and get the backlash down to .007" or so, so he can forget about it. As long as the parts he makes have a tolerance of +-.015", he'll be fine. Just for the fun of it, I went downstairs and checked my own 6" lathe. 0.025" on the cross slide, 0.020" on the compound. They've been that way for years. The Heald horizontal mill has about .045" on the X feed screw near the ends, and only a bit more near the middle. It's a 7/8" x 10 tpi Acme screw, and I did recently pick up some taps so I can make a new bronze nut at some point. Because I, too, can be picky sometimes. But there's no great rush. John Martin ------- bearing oilers [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: "mike j" xactdudex~xxyahoo.com Date: Tue May 6, 2008 7:58 am ((PDT)) Finally got the old 618 torn down and back together, cleaning the bearing(s) and straightening out the dust caps which loosened up the spindle for free turning. Noticed that on the left bearing (timken) that the race covers the oiler completely; on the right side there is a space just on the outside of the race which allows the oil to flow freely onto the bearing. Is one or the other correct or, has there been an incorrect bearing replaced at some point? Wwhen I re-assemled I notice no slack in or out, nor back and forth. ------- Re: bearing oilers Posted by: "Jon Elson" elsonx~xxpico-systems.com Date: Tue May 6, 2008 9:06 am ((PDT)) Are you saying the oil can't flow down from the oiler at all? Or just that it is a bit restricted? There should be some felt in the bottom of the oiler to allow the oil to drip slowly. I have used white tennis shoe laces for wicks with good results. It is no problem as long as the oil is still able to drip from the oiler onto the bearing. If the path is totally blocked, then something has been done that is wrong. Either the bearing hasn't fully seated down against the shoulder or the outer race is longer axially that the one designed to go there. It might be possible to make a little groove in the casting to let the oil flow down. You should be able to look (a bright light will help) in the left end past the little gear to see if the outer race is seated all the way down against the shoulder in the casting. A little crud in the bore could have jammed it so it couldn't seat completely. You will need a gear puller and some steel discs of the right diameter to push the race out and then put it back in. The preload force from the spindle should be enough to drive the outer race home if everything is clean. Jon ------- Fw: [atlas_craftsman] bearing oilers Posted by: "James Blackett" jamesrblackettx~xxbtopenworld.com Date: Tue May 6, 2008 9:40 am ((PDT)) Hi, I think that if you rotate the race covers you will find a gap that the oilers can pass through; at least that's what's on my 10" Atlas. James ------- Spindle Re-Assembly Problem [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: "jwgott1" jwgx~xxleonard.com Date: Sun Jun 29, 2008 1:01 pm ((PDT)) I've successfully removed the spindle from my 618 and cleaned all the parts nicely. I'm having a problem with re-assembly. I can't seem to figure out why the two bearings won't seat fully in their races in the headstock. It seems like either the fixed Timken bearing at the chuck end of the spendle has shifted on the spindle (toward the tailstock end) or the other bearing won't slide fully on the spindle. Either way, I've got a gap of approx. 1/4" that I need to close to the two bearings to seat properly. Help! Any body run across this problem and solved it? Waiting for a helpful answer. Thanks. Jonathan ------- Re: Spindle Re-Assembly Problem Posted by: "jwgott1" jwgx~xxleonard.com Date: Sun Jun 29, 2008 1:54 pm ((PDT)) "ajxnagy" wrote: > Check that all the slots line up when you are replacing the spindle. I've done that. It almost seems like the bearing is too small to fit all the way onto the spindle. Should I be tapping it with a wooden dowel to force it on? ------- e: Spindle Re-Assembly Problem Posted by: "LouD31M066x~xxaol.com" Date: Sun Jun 29, 2008 2:41 pm ((PDT)) If it came apart so it will go back together...that is a given. Are you using replacement parts identical to originals? Are all burrs, dirt and crud taken care of? Are you using a little oil to ease things along? Is anything binding? Lay out parts so you can see sequence of assembly Sooner or later the difficulty will resolve into a duh...works for me. Louis ------- Re: Spindle Re-Assembly Problem Posted by: "ajxnagy" ajxnagyx~xxsbcglobal.net Date: Sun Jun 29, 2008 5:13 pm ((PDT)) Don't hit it with any thing but your hand. Have you tried tightening the collar on the gear side of the spindle to try and seat the bearings - do this gently - there is a procedure available that describes all of this - google atlas 618 belt change and see if you don't find the procedure. I have the procedure in a pdf file. I will send it to you if you can't find it. AJ ------- Re: Spindle Re-Assembly Problem Posted by: "azbruno" azbrunox~xxyahoo.com Date: Sun Jun 29, 2008 7:38 pm ((PDT)) Just in case it might help, the Atlas618Lathe group Files section contains the file "Removing backgears and spindle on 618.doc" Bruno ------- Re: Spindle Re-Assembly Problem Posted by: "jwgott1" jwgx~xxleonard.com Date: Mon Jun 30, 2008 8:29 am ((PDT)) I followed the instructions exactly as written. The spindle did not want to come out easily, but it did eventually come out just as described in the instructions. I can see the marks on the spindle where the bearing had been, but it sure does not want to go back to that spot. Any other thoughts from any one? Thanks. Jonathan ------- Re: Spindle Re-Assembly Problem Posted by: "carvel webb" carvelwx~xxabsamail.co.za Date: Mon Jun 30, 2008 9:27 am ((PDT)) Jonathan: Would suggest you take it apart again, and 'dry assemble' the spindle on the bench with bearings visible where you can see what's happening. As has been suggested check for burrs, measure the shaft and the bearings, polish the surface with a bit of very fine emery paper if needed until you get a situation that the bearing will be a tight but movable fit on the shaft. Make sure the surfaces are oiled. When everything 'works' on the bench, take it apart and re-assemble it in the headstock as per the instructions. Regards, Carvel ------- Re: Spindle Re-Assembly Problem Uh Oh Posted by: "jwgott1" jwgx~xxleonard.com Date: Tue Jul 1, 2008 2:00 pm ((PDT)) The use of emery paper was the perfect solution. Unfortunately, I took off too much and now the bearing slides too far down the spindle before making a tight fit. I'm so mortified by the whole thing I couldn't even bring myself to use any choice words. Just shook my head in bewilderment. An extremly important lesson was learned by both me and my son as a result of this excercise. Any suggestions on how I can recover from this? Jonathan ------- Re: Spindle Re-Assembly Problem Uh Oh Posted by: "Hugh Prescott" hughx~xxquincyhobby.com Date: Tue Jul 1, 2008 5:34 pm ((PDT)) Loctite bearing mount will fix that. Should be available at any good bearing supply house. Hugh ------- Re: Spindle Re-Assembly Problem Uh Oh Posted by: "Jon Elson" elsonx~xxpico-systems.com Date: Tue Jul 1, 2008 9:13 pm ((PDT)) If it is like the 10 and 12" Atlas, it doesn't actually have to be a tight fit. The threaded collar on the back end of the spindle puts the whole spindle under tension between the bearings. As long as the inner race is not a sloppy fit even when seated against the shoulder, you have nothing to worry about. Once the whole assembly is tightened with that collar, you will have no problem. Jon ------- Re: Spindle Re-Assembly Problem Uh Oh Posted by: "jwgott1" jwgx~xxleonard.com Date: Wed Jul 2, 2008 6:37 am ((PDT)) Thanks Jon. I think that the bearing needs to fit snug on the spindle or under load the spindle would turn inside the bearing rather than the bearing turning with the spindle? Interestingly, Hugh's suggestion to use Loctite Bearing Mount is exactly what a retired shopteacher/machinery dealer friend told me to use. When I described my situtuation to him he chuckled and told me not to worry, he's seen this many times in his 40+ years and Loctite Bearing Mount will fix it. He also told me two other things: 1. he said if I ever want to take the Loctite fixed bearing off again I will need to heat it; and 2. Next time I attempt something like this, do a little, try the fit, do a little, try the fit... I have a much healthier appreciation today than I had yesterday for the sensitivitiy of the tolerances on our machines. Jonathan ------- Re: Spindle Re-Assembly Problem Uh Oh Posted by: "Bobby May" widgitsx~xxsbcglobal.net Date: Wed Jul 2, 2008 8:55 am ((PDT)) Although the loctite solution does fix the the inner race onto the spindle another problem still shows. If the bearing is loose to begin with the loctite does not center the spindle correctly; this could cause spindle concentricity runout. A better repair would be to knurl the journal lightly, then chuck it up and indicate it in using a .0001" dial test indicator. By turning down the knurled surface to a new correct diameter the problem mentioned above does not occur. Loctite could then be used to give more surface area to make sure the inner race never comes loose over time from side loading or vibration. You take your chances the other way. I wouldn't give it a choice to have runout. Probably mostly depends on how much clearance there is between the 2 parts. If it still has some good true surface to locate on you might get away with it. Hope it helps Bobby ------- Re: Spindle Re-Assembly Problem Uh Oh Posted by: "n5kzw" n5kzwx~xxarrl.net Date: Wed Jul 2, 2008 7:58 pm ((PDT)) In the area where the bearing would normally seat, take a small hammer and center punch and raise a number of small pips around the spindle. You only need a very light tap and if you put the pips at about 120-degree intervals, you will probably keep the spindle pretty well centered. Put it together and check the runout. If it meets requirements, then tear it down and re-assemble with the Locktite bearing stuff. Regards, Ed ------- Re: Spindle Re-Assembly Problem Uh Oh Solved Posted by: "jwgott1" jwgx~xxleonard.com Date: Fri Jul 4, 2008 3:27 pm ((PDT)) Thanks for all the great advice on this one. I followed Ed's advice and raised some rows of concentric pips with a small center punch and small brass machinist's hammer. This made the bearing fit just like I would think it should. I did not use the Loctite, but I would do so if there are any problems with the fix. This was a good learning experience all the way around for us. Thanks again. Jonathan ------- [atlas_craftsman] Re: Stuck spindle and other questions [REMOVING HEADSTOCK FROM BED] Posted by: "jmileman" jmilemanx~xxyahoo.co.uk Date: Sun Jul 6, 2008 9:53 am ((PDT)) Thanks for the input guys, I've removed the clamp from the bottom but the headstock still seems stuck fast. Not sure if I've removed everything I should; the lathe has so much crud on it, it's hard to tell what's attached to what. Do I need to remove the on/off switch, gearguard,leadscrew or feedgear assembly, etc.? Apologies for all the basic questions but this is my first lathe and I'm learning as I go. Cheers Jim ------- Re: Stuck spindle and other questions Posted by: "Michael Fagan" woodworker88x~xxgmail.com Date: Sun Jul 6, 2008 10:10 am ((PDT)) You'll need to remove everything down to the bare casting. ------- Re: Stuck spindle and other questions Posted by: "dragonfl1ght" dragonflightx~xxrogers.com Date: Sun Jul 6, 2008 10:13 am ((PDT)) When I removed mine it was on the ground and I didn't notice 2 bolts at the very end of the lathe bed (not shown in the parts explosion). I cursed, oiled, levered, cursed, oiled, cursed, levered, and then cursed some more trying to get it to budge thinking it had welded itself in there. Removed the bolts and it lifted off easily! Now I had already removed almost everything else, so I'm not sure what has to go first, but I think it will lift up or at least slide forward and then lift up. mike [AND IN A LATER MESSAGE:] For clarification the bolts are on the underside, go through the bed and screw into the headstock casting. And if the switch is still connected to the motor, it is easiest to unscrew it first and push it in as you are lifting the headstock ------- Re: Stuck spindle and other questions Posted by: "jmileman" jmilemanx~xxyahoo.co.uk Date: Sun Jul 6, 2008 11:40 am ((PDT)) Thanks for the info Mike, found the 2 bolts tucked away behind the feed gear assembly. Like you say, can't believe they're not shown in the parts diagrams !! Loving this group, it's a wealth of knowledge and none of the bitching I've seen on other groups/forums. Cheers Jim ------- How do you get the carriage/apron assembly off a 10F [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: "jmileman" jmilemanx~xxyahoo.co.uk Date: Mon Jul 7, 2008 1:15 pm ((PDT)) Finally managed to get everything off my lathe apart from the carriage/ apron assembly. Atlas manual states: 1. Remove leadscrew - done 2. Loosen gibs on back of carriage - I've taken the 4 screw/nuts that are in a line on the back of the carriage out completely (presume these are the gibs) 3. Slide the carriage off the bed - well I've wound the handle to move the carriage to the back of the bed and now the handle just clunks and won't move the carriage forwards or backwards - arrrgggh !! Please tell me I haven't done some irrepairable damage and give me a few pointers on what I should be doing. (Crosslide etc is still on the carriage if that makes a difference.) Cheers Jim ------- Re: How do you get the carriage/apron assembly off a 10F Posted by: "dragonfl1ght" dragonflightx~xxrogers.com Date: Mon Jul 7, 2008 2:06 pm ((PDT)) The carriage should just slide off at this point. Make sure both bolts for the leadscrew bearing are removed (mine had a shop made bearing that only used on of the bolts, but the other was in there). If it doesn't slide off you can remove the apron (assume you are going to do that eventually anyway) by unscrewing the 2 large Phillips screws. Now it should slide off. If it doesn't there must be a big dint in the ways. Next step would be to remove the compound slide assembly, flip the bed over (good idea to support the headstock end) and unscrew the two bearing plates. Watch the shims; my 1 thou one curled up like a spring and bounced around - don't kink it. At this point the bed will lift off leaving the carriage (unless you put some glue in there!) Looks like you are about a week behind me. I have taken mine apart (all but a few swaged (?) in pins), cleaned it (thanks to someone in the group I used hand cleaner which did a real good job once I realized I had to leave it on for a few hours/days - my lathe was a mess). It is all put back together now except for the headstock, because I need a new belt. good luck mike ------- Re: How do you get the carriage/apron assembly off a 10F Posted by: "Lucas Thompson" lucas.thompsonx~xxgmail.com Date: Mon Jul 7, 2008 2:49 pm ((PDT)) Are you sure that you've got the carriage stop loose enough or off? IIRC I had to take that screw most or all of the way out on mine. It's the one on the top right-hand side toward the front. Also make sure you didn't accidentally get the halfnuts engaged while wrestling with it! :) ------- Re: How do you get the carriage/apron assembly off a 10F Posted by: "jmileman" jmilemanx~xxyahoo.co.uk Date: Mon Jul 7, 2008 4:11 pm ((PDT)) Hi Lucas: No mention of a carriage stop in the manual so didn't even realise there was one. Think I found it, removed it completely but still no joy. Could you just confirm that the item circled in this pic is the carriage stop. http://tinyurl.com/6phuos Thanks Jim ------- Re: How do you get the carriage/apron assembly off a 10F Posted by: "Dragonflight" dragonflightx~xxrogers.com Date: Mon Jul 7, 2008 4:24 pm ((PDT)) That's it, mike ------- Re: How do you get the carriage/apron assembly off a 10F Posted by: "jmartin957x~xxaol.com" Date: Mon Jul 7, 2008 4:38 pm ((PDT)) Turning the handwheel won't take the carriage off, as you'll run out of rack first. Sounds like that's where you are now. Give the carriage a pull and it should slide off. As the parts of the bed that the carriage slides on will be most worn near the headstock it may get a little tight before it comes off at the tailstock end. Make sure all gibs are loose. John Martin ------- Re: How do you get the carriage/apron assembly off a 10F Posted by: "Michael Fagan" woodworker88x~xxgmail.com Date: Mon Jul 7, 2008 7:11 pm ((PDT)) You probably just ran it off the end of the carriage rack. You need to pull/slide it the rest of the way off. The noise is the gear that engages the rack skipping at the very end. If you want to reengage it, just push the carriage while turning the handwheel. ------- Re: How do you get the carriage/apron assembly off a 10F Posted by: "mf205i" mf205ix~xxyahoo.com Date: Mon Jul 7, 2008 10:57 pm ((PDT)) The carriage is shimmed so that there is very little vertical play, so before you remove it, use a mill file and a stone to remove any high spots that may have been turned up from dings and burrs on the ways, paying extra attention to the ends and corners. Then use a Scotch brite pad and some ATF-light oil to spiff up the ways on their tops, sides and underneath. When everything is deburred and clean, then the carriage will slide off. Have fun, Mike ------- Re: How do you get the carriage/apron assembly off a 10F Posted by: "jerdalx~xxsbcglobal.net" jtiers Date: Tue Jul 8, 2008 4:56 am ((PDT)) Both the "mill file" and the stone will cut below the good surface. I would like to suggest NOT using a "mill file", etc. Instead use a "burr file". That is typically a section of broken-off file, which one rubs on a flat oilstone to flatten the tips of the teeth. The "burr file" will cut ONLY until it reaches flat metal, at which time you will know it since it will begin to glide smoothly, instead of cutting. You won't need the stone, although a rub or two won't do any particular harm. It is possible, but much more difficult, to make a half-round burr file. Such a file would be great for taper socket dings.... JT ------- Re: How do you get the carriage/apron assembly off a 10F Posted by: "Dragonflight" dragonflightx~xxrogers.com Date: Tue Jul 8, 2008 8:01 am ((PDT)) The "burr file" sounds like a great tip. I was wondering how I was going to safely flatten some little dings I have. thanks mike ------- Re: How do you get the carriage/apron assembly off a 10F Posted by: "jmileman" jmilemanx~xxyahoo.co.uk Date: Tue Jul 8, 2008 10:31 am ((PDT)) Hi all: Thanks to everyone for the advice. Unfortunately the carriage was stuck at the end of the bed and didn't want to move at all so I wasn't able to file anything flat! Confident in the knowledge that I was 'almost there' I warmed the carriage with the trusty paint stripper gun and that loosened things up enough for me to slide (well more like tug) the carriage off. Now onto the final strip down of the individual components and the big clean up. Advance Warning - Be prepared for more 'how do I do this' questions :) Cheers Jim ------- NOTE TO FILE: The following thread resulted from a query about ways that were out of alignment. The description of the problem was a bit vague so respondents did not know exactly how the ways were off level. However, folks attempting to help provided some good tips. Incidentally, the Rollie's Dad's way to level ways is detailed in Dec 2000 in this file. ------- Re: Flat ways not in same plane Posted by: "catboat15x~xxaol.com" catboat15x~xxaol.com Date: Wed Sep 3, 2008 10:07 pm ((PDT)) That is strange, if I read you correctly. Ways can be twisted out of position if the lathe is not "leveled" correctly (I put Level in quotes as "Leveling" is the common term for getting both ends in the same plane, level or on a tilt, but the same tilt). Leveling is the common term because that plane is easy to determine with a quality machinist's level. Now, there are ways that are "humped" higher in the middle and lower at the ends as well as sagged or what a boat builder would call "hogged" and there are directions in the manuals to correct that fault, by shimming various places under the feet. So I would assume your fault would be that one of the "legs" at the head stock end has a shim or uneven bearing on your table to place a twist on one way, but not the other. Shims placed inside the mounting bolts will tend to make the ways bow upwards and shims placed outside the mounting bolts will bow the ways to make a hollow in the center. That is why the book shows shims made to bear on the whole foot with only a slot for the mounting bolt. Some users bolt the head down tightly and allow the tails stock end to float slightly. My own Atlas has only one mounting hole at the tail stock end and that is how I have mounted it, two tight bolts at the head stock and only a finger tight bolt at the single tail stock mounting hole. (That hole is in the center, of course.) Assuming you have the more usual four bolt mounting system, what I would do is to loosen all the mounting bolts or screws, do the measurements again and work from that point. Adding and/or removing shims as required. Getting all readings the same of course. If your precision level (Not from the local home center) reads the same every place on the bed, you are there. Also there is a method of assuring lathe leveling that does not use a level, called "Rollie's Dad's way to level a lathe" which involves chucking up a known straight bar and taking measurements along the known bar. Some machine shops keep a "test bar" in the tool room for doing this and periodically check lathe alignment. (This will not only check for level, but also check for tail stock alignment.) John Meacham Littlerock, California 12 inch Atlas lathe, Mini-mill, band saw and a rusty file. ------- Re: Flat ways not in same plane Posted by: "jake09305" jake09305x~xxbellsouth.net Date: Thu Sep 4, 2008 7:00 am ((PDT)) If I might add on to John's comments...the surface on which the lathe is mounted makes a significant difference especially if it is a wooden bench. Wood moves...overnight and from season to season. The "test-bar" has the advantage that it will verify the alignment of the vertical and horizontal axes of the lathe regardless of how or where it is mounted. The pursuit of "level" is because that is the way the lathe was initially manufactured and assembled....on a "flat" "level" surface. You want to replicate that. Henry ------- NOTE TO FILE: And, as has been discussed many times before, levelling the ways may be a bit easier if the lathe is on a perfectly level stand or workbench, but such perfection is rarely the case in a typical workshop (or aboard a moving ship for that matter). The important thing is to align both ways to be "perfectly" (or very close to perfectly) parallel to each other. Once that has been achieved, it matters not whether the benchtop is out of level as during a storm at sea. The sea analogy is because lathes were standard shop equipment for ships and submarines which are hardly ever perfectly level except for microseconds. ------- [atlas_craftsman] Re: Atlas 10" Lathe - Cross Slide travel not square with bed?????? Posted by: "Jon Elson" elsonx~xxpico-systems.com Date: Tue Oct 21, 2008 10:27 am ((PDT)) ChuckCastiglione wrote: > Anyone ever have a 10" Atlas lathe cross slide not be perp to the bed > rails? I'm out about .005" in 4" of travel. I checked in a few > different places on the bed with same results. I'm thinking of trying > to setup in my HARIG 6x12 and cleaning up the front edge of the > casting. Any thoughts are welcome. You need to check both the casting and the bed. If either is worn (bed will be concave, carriage would be convex) then both need to be corrected. A region of concave wear on the bed will quickly wear the carriage convex again. Is the carriage able to rock against the bed? I would hand-scrape the carriage front face to be square, but that fits my personal choice and skill/equipment. You need to make sure the front face is exactly square to the cross slide. You can check that on the lathe easily by placing a hardened and ground rod of known straightness in the dovetail, and mounting a dial indicator to the chuck so you can swing it around. Touch the indicator to the rod at the two extreme ends, and note the difference in the reading. When that reading is identical, the carriage is square to the bed. Jon ------- Re: Headstock cleaning and bearing removal [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: "Jon Elson" elsonx~xxpico-systems.com Date: Sat Nov 15, 2008 9:15 am ((PST)) jmileman wrote: > Hi all. Been a while since I last posted on here but I'm finally > getting a chance to complete the strip down and rebuild of my 10F > The headstock has about an inch thick layer of gunge over it and is in > desperate need of a good clean. Before I do I've got a couple of > questions I need clarification on > 1. What's the best way to get the dust covers and baffles out, is it > simply a case of levering them out. Very gentle prying with a screwdriver or knife blade. They usually are not pressed in very hard. > 2. When I took the spindle out, the front bearing came out with it but > the back one is in fast, any tips on getting this out. From what I can > see the bearings look to be in good order so I'd like to re-use them > if I can. (also I assume the back bearing comes out towards the rear) It is best to make up a set of stepped steel discs with center drill holes in them, to drive out the bearings outer races and also fit both ends of the spindle. Use a big gear puller, and it makes the whole job a lot easier. > 3. Once the bearing is out does anything else have to come out of the > headstock ie is the surface the bearing sits on removable or is it > just a machined part of the headstock? Just a machined bore with a lip at the end. Just be careful when applying force, as the metal is a bit thin there. As long as the bearing is going in or out straight, everything will be ok. That's why the discs and puller are so important. If they get crooked, it can crack the casting. > 4. Was going to give the headstock a blast with carb cleaner is this > safe to use in this instance ? I'm sure that is quite safe. Cleanliness is important, as grit in the bearing nest will jam it and require a lot of force to drive the new bearing in, which is bad for a number of reasons. Jon ------- Re: New mitre gear fits tight on lead screw Posted by: "Jon Elson" elsonx~xxpico-systems.com Date: Sat Dec 20, 2008 9:27 am ((PST)) Curt Thompson wrote: > I bought a replacement mitre gear (10F82A) from Clausing for my father's 12x36 Atlas Lathe. The original had just a sliver of material that was left to engage the lead screw. Dad says that the new gear is not the original zamak material. The new gear does not fit or is really tight on the lead screw. Anyone else run into this and what did you do? < You (he) needs to find out whether it is the key or the bore that is causing the binding. Possibly shining a bright light along the length of the screw as you try to fit the gear will tell which part is the problem. If it isn't a little bit of mold flashing causing the interference, then it might be necessary to carefully needle-file the bore or key to get a good fit. Jon ------- Re: New mitre gear fits tight on lead screw Posted by: "Fred" fred1900x~xxyahoo.com Date: Sat Dec 20, 2008 7:06 pm ((PST)) I have the same problems with some of the gears that I bought. In addition, the left hand gear which is on a tubular shaft that has a solid round shaft inserted to it and pinned, did not fit. Someone at Clausing suggested honing it out with sandpaper. I used a Dremel with a sanding disk and it took about two minutes to get it to fit, tightly. I have trouble shifting for forward, reverse and neutral. It goes, but takes a lot of pressure and sort of forcing it in. I will take it apart and check the floating gear in the center which engages to the pinions on either side. I think that there is a poor fit and as a result, it does not enter into the position with the pinion gears easily. Fred ------- Re: Wonderful Zamak [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: "Brett Jones" brettx~xx5foot2.com Date: Sun Feb 8, 2009 4:29 pm ((PST)) I've recently used the Moglice compound intended for repairing feed nuts (I used it to repair the cross feed nut on my Sheldon lathe) as a build up material to replace a missing tooth on a 96 tooth Atlas change gear. I've not used the gear since, so I have no idea if it'll fail, but it seems pretty strong. I'm very happy with the outcome on the nut repair. The nut is smooth as silk and I have about .001 of backlash on the cross feed. The machine had about .030 when I bought it. Sheldon uses a non standard 1/2 -8 thread on the cross, compound and tailstock nuts. Brett Jones ------- Re: Wonderful Zamak Posted by: "Brett Jones" brettx~xx5foot2.com Date: Sun Feb 8, 2009 9:32 pm ((PST)) Michael Michalski wrote: > Thats impressive. How much does it cost. It came in a kit form with enough material to do 4-5 nuts. The cost was around $50. I also replaced the screw, so add $30 or so for the screw stock. ------- Re: Wonderful Zamak Posted by: "Brett Jones" brettx~xx5foot2.com Date: Sun Feb 8, 2009 10:48 pm ((PST)) Robert Silas wrote: > How does this whole procedures work? Well, I made a new screw by joining a length of commercial precision acme screw stock (1/2 - 8 LH from a company named Roton) to the unthreaded portion of an original screw. I then took an original cast iron Sheldon nut that was worn out and bored out the threads. Next I cut a 8 or 10 pitch "thread" on the ID of the nut with a boring bar to give the material something to grip/key into. Then I made a pair of collars that held the nut ID concentric with the screw. These were a light press fit and only extended into the nut bore by .030 or so. The Moglice kit included some clay to use as a dam, a release agent, cleaning solution, the epoxy and catalyst, a syringe and other ancillary items. I cleaned all metal surfaces and applied 2 or 3 layers of the release agent to the screw and the collars. I installed the collars and used the clay to make the dams. A portion of the epoxy was mixed and using the syringe injected into the nut through the mounting/oiling hole. It took about 24 hours for the epoxy to setup completely. As I said the end result was great. I had a couple of small voids in the casting that could have been avoided if I'd had an outlet hole for the epoxy flow out of while I filled the void. The nut has been performing perfectly. I have a second worn nut and the screw shaft I bought was long enough to make 2 nut/screw sets, so I'm going to go through the process again and document it. I'm thinking about submitting it to Village Press but I think they may have published a similar article 3 or 4 years ago. If they have I'll just post it online somewhere. ------- Re: Wonderful Zamak Posted by: "Jon Elson" elsonx~xxpico-systems.com Date: Mon Feb 9, 2009 9:12 am ((PST)) Robert Silas wrote: > How does this whole procedures work? Moglice is sold in the US by Devitt machinery, and they have a wonderful book they will send you, as well as having a fair amount of info online. http://www.moglice.com/ I used it to rebuild a 15" Sheldon lathe carriage, and it worked VERY well. Devitt has a whole series of products to make the process work. They have a spray-on solvent that degreases the parts so the Moglice will stick. They have a spray-on mold release wax that you put on the master (in the case of leadscrew nuts, you'd put it on the leadscrew). For slideway applications, they have stick-on wax that you can use to mold in the oil grooves. They have a range of Moglice in different viscosities, depending on how easy it is to get it in where it is going. I used the "putty" version for the carriage. I drilled and tapped 10-32 holes in the carriage so I could have 8 brass-tip set screws that bore on the ways. 4 were straight down to set the carriage level, then two bearing on the back of the bed, and two on the front. I set them all up to get the cross-slide way perpendicular to the spindle. I then loosened the front screws and turned the carriage over, applied the putty and placed the carriage on the ways, and tightened the front screws that I had loosened. A day later I used the setscrews to pop the carriage free. I'd made it too high, and the carriage rack bound up, so I had to scrape the Moglice down a bit. It scrapes very easily. For a nut application, you need to make up some rings that center the nut over the screw and hold the Moglice in place until it sets. Jon ------- Re: Wonderful Zamak Posted by: "Robert Silas" robert.silasx~xxvideotron.ca Date: Mon Feb 9, 2009 10:44 am ((PST)) Jon and Brett, Thanks for the idea and the descriptions. I'll look into this repair possibility though at this moment I do not need it. I used J.B. Weld before with some success, but this material promises more. In spite of all that I don't think that a gear-tooth could just be just glued on to its broken base. I still believe in the old system, either by hand or by using a "Dovetail" cutter, cut a base and fit a piece of bronze or brass into it which will be filed or machined to a tooth. I saw beautiful jobs like that. (I wasn't the one who did it.) Robert ------- Re: Could use some advice [Atlas_craftsman] Posted by: "Bryan Waldron" bewaldronx~xxmsn.com Date: Sun Feb 15, 2009 9:18 am ((PST)) "lloomie" wrote: > Hi folks, I have a 40's era Atlas craftsman - just broke a zamak part- > the bracket in the apron that holds the apron advance gears- does > anyone have one to sell or know how to repair it? I found a ref > to "Alumite, and "Muggy weld super alloy 1" for brazeing Zamak- anyone > ever used these? Thanks, Leo I could be wrong, but I think you are referring to what Atlas calls the "Gear Case". Regardless, that's the part that I recently used MuggyWeld on, and so far I think that the rather pricey cost of the rods and flux was worth the investment. Some "off the top of my head" thoughts: 1) This was my second attempt to repair the same part. The first time I used JBWeld epoxy, and it lasted about a year before breaking again. To me, a year was not long enough to justify trying epoxy again even if the cost of JB Weld is a fraction of what MuggyWeld is. 2) The actual soldering of the two pieces was the easiest part of the entire operation - Most of my time was spent cleaning off the old JB Weld, removing the shaft and gears that are part of the assembly (which in my case would have made for an awkward repair if not removed), and making a wooden jig to hold the two pieces in the correct location. 3) Using my (hotter) MAPP gas was not necessary - I just used propane and followed the procedures in the videos at the MuggyWeld webpage. All that said, it's my understanding that due to the rather imprecise methods of production back when these lathes were made, not all Zamak parts react alike to brazing/soldering - what worked on mine, might not work on yours. Hope this helps. Bryan ------- Re: Could use some advice Posted by: "ChrisandJudy" chrisandjudyx~xxcableone.net Date: Sun Feb 15, 2009 12:20 pm ((PST)) Somebody who is evry good at useing a TIG welder can repair Zamak. A friend TIG welded my apron gear case, the same part you need repaired. By the way, the same part was broken on a late model (1975?) cabinet 12x36 Craftsman and he welded it up too. He told me the newer Zamak was much more impure and therefor harder to weld. Chris ------- [RAISING ATLAS LATHE HEAD AND TAIL STOCKS FOR MORE SWING] Re: Perhaps a Stupid Question [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: "seb fontana" speedoo51x~xxyahoo.com Date: Tue Mar 3, 2009 10:06 am ((PST)) "chance16301" wrote: > Hi I've been lurking here for quite some time. I have what may be a > stupid question. Has anyone tried using a riser block on a atlas 10 > inch lathe to give it 12 in swing capability. I am considering the idea > just for a couple of projects I might have in mind. Just wondering what > some of you might have to say. Thanks in advance for your input. Dan Dan, not a stupid question. I spaced my 10" up 4" [18" swing]... Not to turn large diameters but bore holes in large odd-shaped parts. Depending on how many functions of the lathe you what to keep, I retained all. Briefly: I got some [2] flat ground stock, 4" x 3/4" x the length of the Headstock. 2 more pieces of flat ground, 2.750" x 3/4" x 3.5", the 2.750 to be made to suit [snug]the dimension between the bed rails. These will act as spacers and keys. Put the two "keys" in the bed rails, about .250 down, leaving 3.25 above the bed. Lay the two pieces of 4", one on the back bed rail and one on the front rail, 3/4" side down, 4" against "keys...key spacing should be arranged to clear head draw studs. Clamp together and drill and tap for 1/4-20 to hold the assembly together. Long headstock studs, added one gear, studded to the new spacer to connect the feed gears.. The Tail stock can be raised in the same manner, longer stay bolt, and no it does not create extra bed wear from sliding if you keep things clean and lubed. For the tool post I just made a spacer of 3" dia x 4" long. Used two Allan cap screws counter bored with t-nuts to bolt to compound, with multiple threaded holes all around the counter bores to hold my axa style tool post down. So, 1" raise is not a problem, 4" is about the limit because the only real drawback to adding swing is you will loose rigidity. Ran the lathe for about 15 years like that...restored the lathe back to 10" swing when I needed the rigidity for some tough metal and minimal cuts would have taken forever. I mounted a spare head stock on the spacer and on accasion mount it on my 12" lathe, to the right of the stock head, coupled by two gears, nose to tail for those weird odd jobs. Seb ------- Flat Bed [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: "CVBT" cvbtx~xxyahoo.com CVBT Date: Tue Mar 10, 2009 9:14 am ((PDT)) I have an Atlas 3991 Lathe w/6"swing & 3' bed. After reading all the posts on leveling I realized that I had built a friendship with the head of the machine shop at the local technical college; I borrowed a precision level from him. So, it seems my bed is bowed. I'll check it again but I think I'll find it is indeed bowed. Does anyone have any tricks for handling a bed that's high in the middle; like putting a shim under the headstock leg end, or shimming under the headstock end floor mounts? ------- Flat Bed Posted by: "catboat15x~xxaol.com" catboat15x~xxaol.com Date: Tue Mar 10, 2009 4:39 pm ((PDT)) Yes, I have seen instructions (maybe in the Clausing book) on locating shims to level a bowed bed. For a hump in the middle put shims between the mounting bolts and the far ends of the feet. If your lathe has a "dip" in the bed put the shims under the feet inboard of the mounting holes. The article showed a sketch of normal shims which covered all of the foot area except for a slot to pass by the mounting bolts. ------- Re: X-feed & Compound Rest Feed screws binding [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: "CVBT" cvbtx~xxyahoo.com Date: Thu Mar 12, 2009 8:12 am ((PDT)) Bruce Freeman wrote: > > I think I'm having this problem now on both the crossslide handle and > > on the compound rest handle. This was not a problem a day or two ago, > > but I've been running both of those handles quite bit. It's > > conceivable that there's swarf in the mechanism, but I have no reason > > to believe so. On the crossslide handle, I DO see the jam nut is > > loose, and that seems to be the problem there. > > What's the approach needed to fix these? How should the jamnut be > > adjusted? I have no information on how to do that. How do you > > disassemble the crossslide and the compound rest for thorough > > cleaning? Mine is a 10" Atlas lathe. Jon Elson wrote: > OK, the handle and graduated dial is also part of the thrust bearing for > the leadscrew. So, you want to take up nearly all the clearance there, > but leave enough so it doesn't bind. The two jam nuts are there so the > thing doesn't tighten up by itself. You should take it apart once in a > while to clean and lubricate the bushing there. And, you also need to > put a drop of oil on the graduated dial if your machine doesn't have an > oil hole in the bushing. Jon Jon, I learned how to do this. The xfeed dial and collar are threaded onto a bushing that is threaded onto the xfeed shaft. The bushing must be locked onto the shaft by tightening the end nut against the hand wheel against the bushing. There are very explicit instructions how to do this in the Atlas manual. It's such a joy to have those feed screws not bind. Ahhhh. Geoffrey ------- NOTE TO FILE: The following discussion is about dealing with backlash on an Atlas lathe. You might also wish to read the file here called Sherline Mill Backlash. There is a great deal of information there about reducing or compensating for backlash that could apply to other mills and lathes besides Sherline ones. ------- Re: Backlash [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: "William Abernathy" williamx~xxinch.com Date: Thu May 21, 2009 10:30 am ((PDT)) Bruce Freeman wrote: > Is there any trick to eliminating backlash in the crossfeed and > similar screws? For the crossfeed, there is one trick: the short 1/4 - 20 bolt in the crossfeed casting (just behind the compound mount) is very susceptible to rocking. There must be a flat washer under the head of this bolt! Without this washer, the crossfeed rocks back and forth noticeably. Obviously, this fastener must be torqued snugly into the crossfeed nut. Other than that, make sure your gibs are properly adjusted. William A. ------- Re: Backlash Posted by: "Russ Kepler" russx~xxkepler-eng.com Date: Thu May 21, 2009 11:06 am ((PDT)) It depends on where it is. I'd start by making sure that the cross feed nut is tight on the slide and isn't slipping around. Once you're comfortable with that, you want to make sure that there isn't a lot of slop in the screw mount - put an indicator on the front or back end of the screw and push/pull on the screw with the handle. If you see slop there, you'll need to address it where it's mounted. Once sure of the nut & screw mounting, the only thing left is wear in either the screw or the nut. You can check this fairly easily by mounting an indicator bearing on the cross slide and push/pull on the slide. If there's a lot of difference from the center of the screw to the ends, then the screw is worn; if there's little difference, then the nut is worn. In my experience the nut tends to wear more than the screw, but if the nut is allowed to pick up crap it'll tend to lap the screw. ------- Re: Backlash Posted by: "carvel webb" carvelwx~xxabsamail.co.za Date: Thu May 21, 2009 12:56 pm ((PDT)) If you check all the things Russ recommends, and you are sure the play is in the Nut, an old trick is to cut a slit in the nut to the depth of the thread about 3/4 of the way towards the rear, and drill and tap a hole for a small screw from the far side. You can then 'squeeze' the two parts together eliminating nearly all play. In the normal cutting direction, there is still 3/4 of the Nut carrying the load, and the 1/4 that is left on the withdrawal stroke is normally not loaded . Some British lathes had this as a factory feature. rgds, Carvel ------- Re: Backlash Posted by: "azbruno" azbrunox~xxyahoo.com Date: Thu May 21, 2009 12:27 pm ((PDT)) You won't be able to eliminate backlash, but you can reduce it by keeping the nut and screw in good alignment, reducing the play near the dials, and maybe replacing the nuts. The nut will be brass and should wear before the screw, but the screw can also develop some wear (as someone else pointed out). You must take up the backlash in bringing the tool to the work. Note: I'm talking about our old Atlas machines now... not thinking about ballscrews on CNC machines. Bruno ------- Re: Backlash Posted by: "ajxnagy" ajxnagyx~xxsbcglobal.net Date: Sat May 23, 2009 11:57 am ((PDT)) Please - how much backlash is considered acceptable on the 618? What is typical? I know this may be a matter of personal tolerance but what would one expect if the nut and screw were brand new. By putting a dial indicator and checking play I find play is about 7 to 12 thousandths depending on screw travel. This is about the same on the cal- ibrated dial. There has to be some play I assume even with everything new. What tolerance is expected regarding the calibrated dial? If my dial indicator is correct I have about a 1% error or 1 thousandth for every 100. With 5 turns of the calibrated dial the travel will actually be 0.505. Since this error is known compensation can be made. What do others in the group experience? AJ ------- Re: Backlash Posted by: "catboat15x~xxaol.com" Date: Sat May 23, 2009 12:07 pm ((PDT)) Just how much "backlash" are we talking about here? With a machine like the Atlas there is going to be some backlash (unless you want to look into a re-fit with ball screws). You can minimize the backlash by adjusting the special cross-slitted nut that holds the handle along with the thin nut behind the handle to take up excessive play. But there must be some play in there or things bind up. To compensate you always approach a setting from the same direction. For example cutting threads -- when you back off after a cut, screw the tool out, and bring the carriage back to the start. Then make sure you approach the next setting from the same direction to eliminate the back- lash. Should be a few 1/1000s if screws and nuts are working right. Sometimes with years of use the nuts on the cross and compound slides work loose and need adjusting to reduce the backlash as much as practical on our machines. ------- Re: Backlash (sorry, long post) Posted by: "catboat15x~xxaol.com" Date: Sun May 24, 2009 12:51 pm ((PDT)) I don't quite understand what your letter says. Backlash does not accumu- late if as you wrote you have so much error in several inches that would not be backlash, but an error in the threads on the screw. Now 20 threads per inch is not too hard to do with modern (even in the days of Atlas manufacturing). I would be looking at some other source for that error (or in my measuring technique or measuring instrument). (A prime example is seen in the Chinese tools sold by Harbor Fright that have 16 TPI threads on the lead screws and a dial marked in 1/1000 but (at least to my first adventure with one of their milling machines) has a final part division to make up where 16 is not a factor of 100. Back lash error comes in when you have to make two or more cuts to reach a dimension. Say you need to remove 0.25 inches from a rod. You divide the .25 by two (since you take material from all sides) and set the dial to give you a reading for .100 cut planning on a second finish cut. Now to bring the tool back to the start you retract the tool a bit, crank the carriage back to the start near the tail stock and move the tool forward by what you figure your finish cut would be. What happens is that the tool does not move at all until the back lash has been taken up so your measurements are off by the amount of the back lash. So what we have to do with our machines, if you want to put the tool in the same relation to the work when taking a second cut, you have to "overshoot" when bringing the tool back from the work so that you come forward again so the nut and screw are in the same relationship as when you started. Hard to explain, but go to your lathe and crank the cross slide in one direction stopping at some known division, then start cranking in the other direction and you will see the dial on the crank move before the slide actually starts to move. If you stopped at the 20 mark, then see the compound does not start to move until the dial reads 30 you have 10/1000 back lash. Not a real problem in real life as long as you remember when taking a second cut to come back more than your known back lash and then bring the tool forward again to your desired reading. That is what the high school metal shop instructor means when he says "Remember to take up the back lash." Or more simply always approach a reading from the same direction. Some tools and instruments have an arrangement of some kind to eliminate back lash; some instruments have two gears held together by a spring if only moving a pointer, machine tools may use "ball screws" which does not allow back lash since there is a different kind of contact between screw and nut. I am not a CNC programmer but I assume those who write such programs must allow for the "back lash" error on machine tools. The main thing is to always load the screw and nut from the same direction. Then no matter if you have .005 or .05 back lash, you can work around the problem. In my own shop I keep a black board and chalk next to the lathe and do my little calculations there so it can be erased and re-used. I also have a little "wallet sized" calculator out there so can divide numbers quickly and accurately plus keeping 25.4 in the memory to convert between MM and Inches. One last bit of advice, I would not try to "correct for back lash" by using the set screw on the dial to turn the dial to the "correct reading"; the way the dial and the nuts are constructed on the Atlas you might install an error where none existed. Use that feature to make an initial setting and like the old commercials used to say "Don't touch that dial." (Black board figure to remember what you read.) ------- Re: Backlash Posted by: "jmartin957x~xxaol.com" Date: Tue May 26, 2009 8:31 am ((PDT)) Catboat gave you an excellent answer to your question. One point he made may deserve a little further explanation, though. If you are seeing .505" movement of your cross-slide for .500" cranked on your handwheel divisions, and assuming that you are approaching from the same direction and are measuring correctly, what you have is not a backlash problem but feedscrew error. Feedscrew error like that can come only from a feedscrew that was cut incorrectly, was stretched or compressed in use, or has been worn to different degrees along its length. Wear of the feedscrew will cause backlash, as will many other factors. Backlash, however, does not necessarily indicate feedscrew wear or error. Nor does a worn feedscrew necessarily result in feedscrew error. The error you are seeing seems like a lot, although I'll admit I have never tested my feedscrews over that kind of distance. I'm not sure why I'd want to. If I measure my workpiece before taking the final cut, and crank in the distance necessary, I'm right on. Obviously, on an Atlas lathe I'd never be taking a single cut .500" deep, nor generally even close to .100" deep (where by your measurement your leadscrew might be off by .001"). I'd be surprised if your feedscrew was manufactured with an error of 1%. While you could have differential wear, I'd also be surprised to see that much over such a short distance, unless your lathe was used in a manufacturing situation for a long time at about the same setting. If it is differential wear, you can check for it. Test the full travel of your feed screw. Use the longest travel that your dial indicator has. When you get to the end of the dial indicator's travel, back it out, reset it, and continue to crank. If there is a wear problem with your feedscrew, you should find that at some point you are only getting say .495" travel for .500" cranked on the handwheel, and that over the full travel of the feedscrew you are right on target. Again, though, I wouldn't be too concerned about long range errors on the feedscrew, since you should be using it not for absolute positioning but for repeatability and for adjusting for a final cut after measuring. John Martin ------- Power crossfeed knob [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: "jmileman" jmilemanx~xxyahoo.co.uk Date: Mon Jul 13, 2009 1:59 pm ((PDT)) The crappy mazak\zamak apron gear case on my 10F finally fell apart last week so over the weekend I've attempted to cobble together a replacement. It's not perfect as the handwheel gear and shaft gear don't mate quite as well as they could do so it's a little noisy when moving the carriage however it should be good enough for me. However on testing everything on re-assembly I noticed that the power crossfeed knob rotates when the lead screw is engaged. Now it's very likely that it's always done this (and should do this)but I've never noticed it in the past, can someone just put my mind at rest and confirm that this is normal. Thanks Jim ------- Re: Power crossfeed knob Posted by: "shuckersfan" shuckersfanx~xxyahoo.com Date: Mon Jul 13, 2009 2:34 pm ((PDT)) When the leadscrew turns, it turns. If not, you've got problems with your mitre gear assembly. ------- Re: Power crossfeed knob Posted by: "Jon Elson" elsonx~xxpico-systems.com Date: Mon Jul 13, 2009 7:07 pm ((PDT)) Yes, that knob is on the end of a gear shaft. When you pull the knob, the gear lines up with a gear on the crossfeed shaft, and makes it turn. Anytime the leadscrew is turning, the knob should also turn. Jon ------- Re: Power crossfeed knob Posted by: "mertnedp" pdentremx~xxforterie.com Date: Tue Jul 14, 2009 5:52 pm ((PDT)) As others have stated, the knob rotates whenever the lead screw is turning. I have replaced this knob with a different setup as a rotating part can hurt you in a machine shop. Also it gives me a better way of engaging the Power cross feed. I did post some pictures as http://wrx-now.tripod.com Check out the Atlas page. This modification makes it so much easier to operate. ------- Re: Tailstock quick release [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: "jmartin957x~xxaol.com" Date: Wed Jul 15, 2009 7:06 pm ((PDT)) > >I find a quarter turn sufficient to go from tight to loose or > >vice-versa, so the wrench on the nut is a sufficient quick release for > >any work I've done so far. 7/15/09, jwormanx~xxgmail.com writes: > I cut off a combination wrench, leaving the box end, and just left it on > the nut. The angle wasn't just right, so I heated it and made a 20° bend > in the handle. It's there all the time and tightens up nicely. > Occasionally I'll move it to the next flat, but not often. John For an even more convenient setup - one that won't let the wrench fall off -- make up a special nut. From the top down: a flange the size of the nut across the corners, then a turned section the diameter of the nut across the flats and as long as the thickness of the wrench, then the hex flats. The flange will keep the box wrench captive, and the turned section will allow you to re-position it. No more hunting for the wrench after it falls on the floor. John Martin ------- Re: Tailstock quick release Posted by: "Glenn N" sleykinx~xxcharter.net Date: Wed Jul 15, 2009 11:54 pm ((PDT)) I cut off two combination wrenches and welded the box end pieces together to make a single wrench that fits the tailstock and the nut on the tool post. ------- Atlas H48 Headstock Shims [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: "shuckersfan" shuckersfanx~xxyahoo.com Date: Sat Aug 15, 2009 9:24 am ((PDT)) I recently picked up an Atlas 10" H48 and have been restoring it. I finally got to the headstock only to find that the bolts holding the spindle were loose and there are no shims in place. The bearings look to be in good order. Tightening the bolts finger tight causes the shaft to lock up -- to all but a good tug to get it to rotate. So what do you all recommend I use for shims: paper, shim stock, call Clausing to see if they have the original stuff lying around in the warehouse, or ??? Also, what thickness should I start with? Any tips on when it is shimmed just right? Thanks! ------- Re: Atlas H48 Headstock Shims Posted by: "carvel webb" carvelwx~xxabsamail.co.za Date: Sat Aug 15, 2009 11:21 am ((PDT)) There are probably a dozen different ways of tackling this, but what I did in the absence of an original shim pack was to get 4 sets of automotive feeler gauges, and to use these under each bearing cap. Adjust them down until the spindle just starts to drag and go up again by one to two thou. Add them up and then go and get some engineering shim stock to make up the required thickness. Regards, Carvel ------- Re: Atlas H48 Headstock Shims Posted by: "Jon Elson" elsonx~xxpico-systems.com Date: Sat Aug 15, 2009 1:24 pm ((PDT)) The original setup had .004" laminated shim packs, you peeled a layer at a time. To make finer adjustments, I used aluminum foil, which is about .0015" thick. Hard to say what shim to start with, I might put layers of paper in there until you get proper clearance, then use aluminum foil or brass shim stock to make proper shims for it. Make sure to put even shims both front and back so the cap sits level. You can buy shim stock assortments with .001 to .050" or so sheets of brass relatively cheaply. Better hardware stores may carry this, there are these K&S racks that some hobby shops have that have an assortment of thin sheet metals. Some .010" and aluminum foil would probably do all you need. As for the proper shimming, you want it close, but not binding. Assuming the spindle is still smooth and round, you should be able to get it down to quite amall clearance without binding. You put a dial indicator on the bed or headstock casting and indicate up-down play in the spindle. You want to get the play down to about .001 to .002". When you are there, the hydrodynamic oil film when running will constrain the spindle to near zero play. When you get the up-down clearance right, check front-back clearance. It should also be relatively well constrained. If not, then you have the problem of out-of-round bearings, which is typical on these Babbit bearings. They wear egg-shaped due to the forces on the spindle. The cutting tool forces the spindle back and up, and the belt also forces it back, so that region of the bearing wears more. Hand scraping the bearing is the fix, but you have to do both front and back bearings together to maintain spindle alignment. Good measuring tools are needed to keep the spindle aligned. When you get all done, the spindle, when well lubed and spun once to distribute the oil film, should spin nearly effortlessly and coast gently to a stop, and be able to run at 1000 RPM without heating. With pre-war oils, you were supposed to loosen the bearing caps slightly to run above 1000 RPM, that probably is no longer needed. Jon ------- Re: Atlas H48 Headstock Shims Posted by: "L. Garlinghouse" lhghousex~xxsuddenlink.net Date: Sat Aug 15, 2009 8:17 pm ((PDT)) Before I went out searching for "real" shim stock, I would cut apart some aluminum cans and probably find they were around 0.010" thick. Soup and coffee can lids are steel and probably about the same. Steel strapping makes good shim stock if you need something closer to 0.020". Just start looking around -- your trash and others and then mic the thickness. No reason all cans are going to be the same. Some strapping is thicker than others. The wider stuff is thicker than the thin stuff. If they are roofing a house somewhere in your area, flashing is usually aluminum and maybe the right thickness. Happy scrounging . . . L.H. Garlinghouse Arkansas USA ------- Re: Atlas H48 Headstock Shims Posted by: "Barry Young" barryjyoungx~xxyahoo.com Date: Sun Aug 16, 2009 7:05 am ((PDT)) Soda cans are .005 thick. Any more and they waste material, any less and they are too fragile. Barry ------- Re: Atlas H48 Headstock Shims Posted by: "ahz" ahzx~xxinsightbb.com Date: Sun Aug 16, 2009 7:13 am ((PDT)) Use your calipers to determine the thickness of any makeshift shim. However, be aware that when you cut the shim stock you may deform the edge, making the shim less flat. If possible, make your shims oversize so he edges have no bearing (ha!) on the outcome. I can do that with my Craftsman 12's Babbitt spindle bearing shims. ------- Re: Atlas H48 Headstock Shims Posted by: "Christian Herzog" zogx~xxstg.com Date: Sun Aug 16, 2009 8:03 am ((PDT)) McMaster-Carr (www.mcmaster.com) sells laminated shims in .002" layer thickness - aluminum, brass, steel, and stainless steel in a variety of different overall thicknesses if you want to go "original". ------- Cross slide backlash [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: "moj_jimmy" jimdnax~xxgmail.com Date: Thu Aug 20, 2009 9:39 pm ((PDT)) Well Im getting the the point where the massive amount of backlash is starting to drive me nuts. IS there any way to rid my lathe of this? I'm pretty sure this thing was dropped at some point in its life. It is a late 101 style on a stand 12 inch variety. None of you guys happen to have a good condition nut and screw laying around? Thanks any help with a fix, or finding suitable replacement parts is welcome. Jim ------- Re: Cross slide backlash Posted by: "Michael Schetterer" finegrainmetalx~xxhotmail.com Date: Thu Aug 20, 2009 9:51 pm ((PDT)) Hi Jim, Backlash in a crossfeed comes from several places: 1. worn nut 2. worn screw (shows as uneven backlash, worse up close and not so bad way far away) 3. worn thrust washers and thrust washer bearing surfaces #1 and #2 are cured by new parts. I make them from bar stock, and would be happy to give you a price quote. You can usually find used parts on Ebay and the like, but then of course you might be buying worn parts to replace your worn parts. Sometimes you can find NOS parts. Heck, Sears might still stock parts. Thrust washer and bearing surface wear can be adjusted out in many lathes, not sure about the 101. If there's no mechanism for adjsutment, shims can take up the extra space. ------- Re: Cross slide backlash Posted by: "J D" jimdnax~xxgmail.com Date: Thu Aug 20, 2009 10:09 pm ((PDT)) Ok thrust washers are which part? Im still kinda new so the lingo escapes me sometimes. thanks jim ------- Re: Cross slide backlash Posted by: "William Abernathy" williamx~xxinch.com Date: Thu Aug 20, 2009 11:08 pm ((PDT)) Jim: I had awful backlash on my Atlas cross-slide and was gearing up to fab a new nut when I realized that the problem was that the bolt that holds the nut to the cross-slide was wiggling relative to the slide, rather than the cross-slide nut wiggling relative to the cross-slide screw. If you look at the top of the cross-slide, there's a bolt head sticking out right behind the compound slide base. This nut MUST have a good washer underneath of it. I don't know if this is what he's talking about (I suspect the thrust washer he's mentioning is part of the x-screw assembly), but if you're wobbling because of this, it's an easy 15-cent fix. William A. ------- Re: Cross slide backlash Posted by: "jimdnax~xxgmail.com" Date: Thu Aug 20, 2009 11:22 pm ((PDT)) Bingo that was it. I guess in my reassembly, I did not torque it down. Tightened it up and it most of the backlash is gone. I can live with it now. Thanks. I love this group for quick solutions like this. Will do the cutting in between centers test later to confirm it. Jim ------- Re: Cross slide backlash Posted by: "jerdalx~xxsbcglobal.net" Date: Fri Aug 21, 2009 5:36 am ((PDT)) With this, or other cases of "backlash", a couple things are important to remember. 1) It is impossible for there to be "true backlash" due to wear that is larger than the screw pitch. That would imply there were no threads at all on either the nut or the screw. So if the backlash appears to be very large, yet the screw appears to have little wear, you are almost certainly looking in the wrong place for the source of trouble, wear is not your issue (or at least not the only one). 2) Backlash is "lost motion", you turn the screw, but things do not slide. Therefore you can look at the screw for the amswer. When you turn the screw, does it move in and out relative to the crosslide (or other part you are examining)? If so, the problem is with bearings restraining the screw. 3) If the screw does not move much, the crosslide does not move, and yet turning gives no sliding, the problem must be with the nut or its mounting. These considerations apply to crosslide, compound slide, leadscrew, and screws on mills etc as well. And, of course, backlash is always present. We are really arguing over how much is too much. if there were no "slop", the screw either wouldn't turn, or it would be a ballscrew. JT ------- Re: Hand wheel removal? [atlas618lathe] Posted by: "EARL BOWER" earl.bower1x~xxverizon.net Date: Thu Dec 3, 2009 8:38 pm ((PST)) On Thu, 12/3/09, Mike Nicewonger wrote: > How do you remove the hand wheels on the compound and cross slide? The handles are locked with taper pins. Watch how you drive them out. A light tap with a pin punch and a hammer, on the right [smaller] end of the pin, they will come out. Earl ------- Re: Hand wheel removal? Posted by: "ghostseses" dericknewmanx~xxhotmail.com Date: Fri Dec 4, 2009 5:11 pm ((PST)) If you are speaking of an Atlas 618, they have split nuts to secure the handles on the cross and compound slides. If you don't have a split nut driver, you can take a washer that is fairly thick and will fit into the slot, file a flat across the washer, and then file a notch in it and use it to unscrew the nuts. Derick ------- Hand wheel removal Posted by: "mcole1954" mcolex~xxcopper.net Date: Mon Dec 7, 2009 8:20 am ((PST)) There is a jam nut at the back of the handle. Loosen this nut first, does not take much, just moving it slightly will loosen it. Requires a thin wrench, which usually came with the lathe, but are frequently lost over the years. You could grind a regular wrench down a bit if you do not have the original. I do not the recall the exact size, but think it's probably a 7/16. Once the rear nut is loosened, removing the front, recessed, slotted nut is usually very easy. You can usually spin it out with the tip of a small screwdriver or punch. It has little holding power, it's the rear jam nut that keeps it all together. Trying to remove the handle without loosening the rear jam nut may damage both the handle and nut. Hope this helps ! Mike C. Proud owner of 3 Atlas/Craftsman 618's ------- Re: Hand wheel removal Posted by: "Michael J. Strauch" mikesx~xxpgisd.com Date: Mon Dec 7, 2009 8:59 am ((PST)) The nut is a ˝" I only know this since I removed mine over the weekend for cleaning. Yes, once the jam nut was loose I used a small screwdriver to remove the end nut. Michael J. Strauch ------- bul gear pin [BULL GEAR PIN] [atlas618lathe] Posted by: "redragonnetx~xxyahoo.com" Date: Fri Dec 25, 2009 8:50 am ((PST)) When you loosen up the pin on the bull gear, here's a little trick I use! Take a tack puller tool and grind it a bit so it easily fits it the groove of the pin and you will have a tool that easily moves the bull gear pin in either direction! I wouldn't be without it! Norm Camillus, NY ------- Tramming the MFC mill [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: "Shad" shendersonx~xxthegeekgroup.org Date: Tue Jan 5, 2010 5:54 am ((PST)) Hi All, In a week or so, I'll be re-assembling the Atlas MFC horizontal mill I've been restoring. It is cleaning up very nicely, and will be usable, albeit missing backgear and power feed for awhile yet. Still have to make some replacement parts for it. My question is about tramming the thing back square. The manual I got from Clausing is pretty thin and has nothing at all about tramming the machine. I've never trammed a horizontal mill, so I'm not sure where to start and where to adjust it to correct any out-of-square issues. Thanks! Shad H. ------- Re: Tramming the MFC mill Posted by: "Russ Kepler" russx~xxkepler-eng.com Date: Tue Jan 5, 2010 6:47 am ((PST)) The head is a separate casting and could be shimmed on assembly to correct some errors. So far as I can tell that's about all that could be done short of remachining or scraping things in. ------- Re: Tramming the MFC mill Posted by: "jmartin957x~xxaol.com" Date: Tue Jan 5, 2010 8:19 am ((PST)) Sounds to me as though you're assuming it is out of square. It most likely isn't. Tramming is something that is done regularly with vertical Bridgeport-type mills, on which the heads tilt from side to side and nod forward and back. Since they adjust, they get out of adjustment - and need to be set back to square for most work. Most horizontal mills have fixed spindles, so no adjustments are necessary. Unless the saddle or table is sagging, in which case you're looking at replacing gibs or re-scraping. It's not likely, however, that an Atlas mill would have that degree of wear. John Martin ------- Re: Tramming the MFC mill Posted by: "Jon Elson" elsonx~xxpico-systems.com Date: Wed Jan 6, 2010 2:53 pm ((PST)) On a manual Bridgeport, the head is on a knuckle joint, so the head has to be aligned in two axes to the table. On a typical benchtop horizontal, there are no such adjustments. One other thing to note is that you want the spindle axis of rotation normal to the XY plane of the table's MOTION, not to the surface of the table itself. So, what you would do is install an angle block on the table and dial it in so there is no indicator change when you move the table in X and Y (vertically). Then, sweep the indicator with the spindle rotation, and you should still have no change in dial reading. I assume scraping the ways may be the only way to change the alignment. Jon ------- NOTE TO FILE: The question as to where to find a crossfeed nut for any Atlas made lathe has come up several times before, and those answers can be found earlier in this file. Just do a search "crossfeed nut" The temporary fixes mentioned in the following message may get you back in operation while making a new nut, or ordering one from say Clausing. ------- Re: 6" Atlas 101 crossfeed nut [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: "Glenn N" sleykinx~xxcharter.net Date: Thu Jan 21, 2010 2:01 am ((PST)) > How much play should there be between the crossfeed screw & nut? > I'm guessing almost none. Where can I get a crossfeed nut? There is one inside a piece of brass near you ;) They come up on e-bay now and then but you need to be sure the slop is in the nut to screw fit and not elsewhere. As an interim fix I put a piece of weedeater line into the hole that the mounting screw goes into. This gets forced down into the acme threaded portion and tightens things up nicely. There is also a fix that I used on my 12" and that is to slot the nut across the threads about 1/8" from one face. Drill and tap a hole to pull the threads together with a AHCS. Pretty common on mills. ------- New 3996 Lead Screw Project - Done [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: "ernieazevedo" ernieazevedox~xxcomcast.net Date: Fri Feb 5, 2010 9:10 am ((PST)) I've owned my 3996 for over 33 years and have not done much in the way to maintain it. I have used it for turning, facing, threading and milling just as you would expect a lathe to be used. It has performed as expected for a medium duty lathe (my opinion after all these years). I built a new shop and was in the market a year ago for a new lathe and was in sticker shock. I instead decided to fix her up. I bought a new Jet Mill/Drill instead. ;-) The five things I decided to do for my lathe were: clean, adjust, new lead screw and half nut, new chuck and a new tool post. With everything else on the machine looking fit I started out buying a Phase 2 tool post and cleaning the machine. Taking the carriage apart I found that it was filthy and loose on all the fasteners. I was fortunate that the gears had not come apart from looseness and stress. Once the parts were cleaned I replaced the half nut with one I got when I bought the lathe 33 years ago. The old nut and lead screw were excessively worn out. Turning threads were hit-and-miss on accuracy. Taking up the slop with the new nut made making the new lead screw much easier. I went to Tacoma Screw and bought a length of 3/4 X 8 tpi Acme threaded rod. I bought enough to make 3 lead screws. When I took the carriage apart I took out my original screw and measured it for making the new one and reinstalled it. After cutting the lead screw to the proper length I carefully turned the right end and threaded it 1/2 NFT for the support bearing side. Being that this is Acme all-thread I had to turn the clutch/ gearbox side down and build a 3/4 X 4 inch sleeve to fit over the end. I made the sleeve with an interference fit and fitted it with a 1/4 X 20 set screw. Now I was ready to mill the key slot for the compound travel. I clamped the lead screw into V blocks on my Mill Drill and used a 1/8th carbide end mill for the task. I was only able to make 7 inch passes and had to remount the screw each time. To make it true to the last cut I made a "fence" that fit into the table of the Mill and has cutouts for the V blocks to fit into on the back edge. I was able to keep the screw square to the table however keeping the groove straight down the axis was hard to do. Since making this first screw I bought new toolmaker V blocks with clamps. My next screw will be clamped in a way that I can move it for each cut and keep the groove straight up and down. I was able to make it though without the new blocks, but it was painstaking to line up each time. The finished product has created a nice tight fit in the lead screw to half nut. The slop is now gone and I essentially have a new lathe with my new 6 inch Bison chuck added too. If anyone has any questions making a lead screw I'm willing to share pictures and help. A new lead screw makes all the difference in finish, especially in threading. Cheers, ErnieA Milwaukie, OR ------- Half nut lever will not move [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: "mudhop1532" dallasgx~xxwindstream.net Date: Thu Feb 11, 2010 10:00 am ((PST)) Hi all, I am a new member with a question. I have a Craftsman 101 27440 and the half nut lever will not move. I have not used it much since I bought it and now notice the lever would not go down. I sprayed penetrating oil in the oil hole and around the half nuts on the back and was able to force it down and up a couple of times but it is way too hard and I am afraid of damaging the half nuts. Can anyone suggest a reason this might be bound up? Thanks in advance. ------- Re: Half nut lever will not move Posted by: "James Walther" indianfourriderx~xxyahoo.com Date: Thu Feb 11, 2010 11:02 am ((PST)) There should be a set screw near the lever. This screw holds a spring and ball that act as the detent, holding the half-nuts open or closed. Remove the screw and see if you can remove the spring and ball. If you are able to remove the spring and ball, that ought to free up the mechanism, unless there is a monster burr on the back of one of the half-nuts. If you can't get the spring and ball out or if that doesn't free things up, AND the half-nuts are currently disengaged, remove the carriage and then take the whole half-nut assembly off and find out what's hanging it up. If the half-nuts are stuck engaged, I'm out of suggestions! Good luck! ------- Re: Half nut lever will not move Posted by: "c_h_a_r_t_n_y" mgibsonx~xxstny.rr.com Date: Thu Feb 11, 2010 12:23 pm ((PST)) Add on to James: "If the half-nuts are stuck engaged, I'm out of suggestions!" Then rotate the lead screw to move the carriage off the end of the travel. It is a good idea to remove it once and a while to clean and oil. The traverse gearset is not in a place to get oiled any other way that I know about. And also, then you can remove the half nut guides and half nuts and clean the threads while at it. Toothbrush and kerosene works well. Household ammonia works if they have plain dirt on them. Rinse, dry, oil and bingo. I clean the lead screw with cotton twine. Careful to not wrap the twine around a finger if doing it with power. I did not have to try that one to learn. chart [and in a later message] Update, I forgot something. When removing the carriage, move it down near the tail end with the crank. Then remove the lead screw bearing. Once the bearing is removed, the lead screw drops down and needs to be supported in a neutral positon so as to clear the half nuts. ------- Re: Half nut lever will not move Posted by: "Jon Elson" elsonx~xxpico-systems.com Date: Thu Feb 11, 2010 7:33 pm ((PST)) You've got to take it apart and clean and lube the parts properly. I think there is a spring and ball detent for it, too, and that may have gotten fouled up. The mechanism is not real complicated, but the scroll-cam that engages the sliding nut halves is Zamak and delicate, you don't want to break it. Remove the right-end leadscrew bracket and slide the screw all the way out. It just has a keyway on the left end and should be free to come out. Remove two really large Phillips screws on the top of the saddle. The apron should be relatively free to come down, it has two dowel pins that align it to the carriage. Remove the screw in the nut engaging handle and the rest should come apart very easily. Jon ------- Re: Half nut lever will not move Posted by: "Raymond" mondosmetalsx~xxyahoo.com Date: Thu Feb 11, 2010 8:09 pm ((PST)) Are you trying to move this lever down with the leadscrew turning, or not turning? If not turning then move the carriage slightly left or right. The lands of the half-nut threads are hitting the lands on the leadscrew threads and not falling into the leadscrew thread grooves. If while the leadscrew is turning, don't force it. Feel for it to gently drop into place. Again, the lands of the half-nut threads are not aligned with the grooves in the leadscrew. The slower the leadscrew is turning the more patience you will need to feel for this to drop into place. Now all that said, if you are still having trouble then remove the leadscrew bearing from the right end of the bed and gently but firmly pull the entire leadscrew out to the right. Now you can crank the carriage handweel clockwise until the pinion runs out of rack, then slide the carriage off the end of the bed. Dissassembly this and clean thoroughly. Apply moderate amounts of machine oil when reassembling. Raymond ------- Re: Half nut lever will not move Posted by: "mudhop1532" dallasgx~xxwindstream.net Date: Fri Feb 12, 2010 6:28 am ((PST)) Jon Elson wrote: > You've got to take it apart and clean and lube the parts properly. Thanks to all for your tips. I gathered that disassembly and clean and lube was what was needed. You guys have provided a wealth of information on how to disassemble. Chart wrote: > It is a good idea to remove it once and a while to clean and oil. The > traverse gearset is not in a place to get oiled any other way that I > know about. Great tip about the traverse gearset - thanks. What is the best lube for the traverse gearset given it is so hard to access? So of the two methods - remove the carriage or remove the apron - which is the preferred? Thanks again - I will let you know when it is fixed how it went. Dallas ------- Re: Half nut lever will not move Posted by: "c_h_a_r_t_n_y" mgibsonx~xxstny.rr.com Date: Fri Feb 12, 2010 8:00 am ((PST)) Re to mudhop: The apron/carriage is the same thing. As to oil types. I spent years in maintenance of machines. Lube suppliers always had special oils for this and that. BUT: I will say 98% of wear and failures are from lack of lube, not what kind. Key were missed lube points and failed automatic oiler units. Machines lubed correctly often lasted a lifetime. Tip: the screw that holds the chip guard on the back of the cross slide is an oil point, not labeled on my machine. Remove the screw and you have a direct port to the cross slide nut. Good luck. chart ------- Re: Half nut lever will not move Posted by: "Bill Stietenroth" k5ztyx~xxjuno.com Date: Fri Feb 12, 2010 8:57 am ((PST)) The apron hangs on the front of the carriage and is held on by two screws in from the top of the carriage. The apron can be removed from the carriage without taking the carriage off of the bed ways. Take the lead screw support bearing off of the right end of the screw and with the half nut open you can pull the lead screw out of the machine. Take out the two large screws on the top of the carriage and the apron will drop down off of the carriage. The apron should be removed occasionally for cleaning, inspection, tightening and lubricating. It's not a big job. Bill ------- Re: Half nut My Error Posted by: "c_h_a_r_t_n_y" mgibsonx~xxstny.rr.com Date: Fri Feb 12, 2010 9:35 am ((PST)) I was mistaken thinking yours was 6". The 10 and 12" have a removable apron while the 6" in one piece. Then see parts on ebay using search "Atlas 12" lathe". Atlas and Craftsman are together. chart ------- Re: Half nut lever will not move Posted by: "catboat15x~xxaol.com" olewilly2000 Date: Sat Feb 13, 2010 9:07 am ((PST)) On my twelve inch Atlas there are shims between the apron and the carriage. I would never have discovered this until I had a jam in the traverse gear that engages the rack and one of the shims came out when removing the apron. As a further note, visual inspection did not show any problem with the gear that engages the rack, but close inspection and "prodding" with a feeler showed that swarf had imbedded itself into the "gulleys" of the gear. Took a scriber and cleaned out the old swarf and now all works fine. (Replaced the shims where I found them.) ------- Re: Headstock disassembly [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: "Scott Henion" shenionx~xxshdesigns.org Date: Tue Mar 16, 2010 4:08 pm ((PDT)) On 3/16/2010 5:14 PM, scubanarc wrote: > Hey guys, I've decided to do a complete tear down and cleaning on my 101.07403 12" X 36" lathe. I do not have the Atlas manual. I have seen some good instructions for tearing down the head stock like this one: http://www.atlas-press.com/tb_10bg.htm But that is for the 10", and I have the 12". Can anyone point me in the right direction for head stock tear down instructions? < That should work fine for the early 12", everything looks the same. The full list of bullitens is located here: http://www.atlas-press.com/servicebulletins.htm The 12" one there is for later models. ------- Re: Headstock disassembly Posted by: "Bill Stietenroth" k5ztyx~xxjuno.com Date: Tue Mar 16, 2010 4:49 pm ((PDT)) Hey Jason: Tearing down the headstock is pretty straightforward. Take the chuck off the spindle nose first. Basically, the spindle pulls out of the assembly from the chuck end of the headstock. There is a set screw in the screw on adjusting collar on the back end of the spindle and a set screw in the collar just behind the small back gear. Loosen those screws and remove the screw on adjusting collar, the feed drive gear and the rear bearing spacer from the back of the spindle. You will see a woodruff key slot under the gear you removed. Keep this keyway pointed up. There is also a key under the big front back gear and it will be pointed up also and it needs to be up to go through a slot that is cut for it in the front bearing dust cover just ahead of it as you pull the spindle (unless someone else has put the dust cover in out of position). Don't drive the spindle out of the headstock, pull it. To make a puller, go to the hardware store and get a 3" PVC pipe coupling and a piece of 1/2" all thread long enough to go through the spindle and coupling and a few inches extra, and a couple of nuts to go on it. You will need to make a couple of special washers for this. One to go in the back of the spindle (you may find a store-bought washer the right size for this one) and one to go over the PVC at the front for the all thread to go through. Put the PVC coupling over the front bearing dust cover and put the all thread through the big washer and the spindle and put the washer and nut on the back. Now you can screw the spindle out of the gears and pulley without hammering on anything. If you need to bump anything as you go, use a soft face hammer. Put some wooden wedges between the large front back gear and the housing so you can watch for that key to come out of the gear and make sure it lines up with the slot in the dust cover. As soon as you pull the spindle far enough to clear the rear bearing surface, it will slip apart the rest of the way. The front bearing is going to pull with the spindle. The object is not to break anything. With some minor adjustments, you can turn the puller around and pull the spindle back in when you are ready. Just use your head and think as you go. Bill in Houston [Later message] I should have proof read this. I forgot to include the set screw in the large front back gear has to be loosened also. ------- Re: Headstock disassembly Posted by: "c_h_a_r_t_n_y" mgibsonx~xxstny.rr.com Date: Tue Mar 16, 2010 5:23 pm ((PDT)) Re to scu See post 61619. What is missing is how tight to tighten tapered roller bearings. Tighten until all slack is gone, then another 1/16 turn. chart ------- Re: Headstock disassembly Posted by: "scubanarc" scubanarcx~xxgmail.com Date: Thu Mar 18, 2010 8:02 pm ((PDT)) Bill: Thanks for the excellent instructions. They seem to be getting me somewhere. So far I have removed the adjusting collar, the small back gear, and the collar in front of that gear. I think that what I removed next is the rear bearing spacer. When I removed it the bearing was exposed. I left what I think is the bearing spacer on the spindle and took a picture. Can you please verify that I am on the right track. Is that indeed the bearing spacer, and have I done this correctly so far? Does the bearing come out the back? What kind of bearing is this? Timken? See this image: http://efundies.com/pictures/atlas_lathe_back_bearing.jpg Thanks for all the help. jason ------- Re: Headstock disassembly Posted by: "Bill Stietenroth" k5ztyx~xxjuno.com Date: Thu Mar 18, 2010 8:18 pm ((PDT)) You are right on Jason. Yes that is a Timken tapered roller bearing. The rear bearing will stay in the housing when you pull the spindle, the front bearing will push off the front dust cover and come out with the spindle. After you get the spindle out, you will want to pull the back bearing dust cover and take the back roller out and clean it. Do not try to remove the races that are pressed into the housing. They can be cleaned in place. While you are cleaning the roller bearings, look for a date etched into the edge of their races. They used to etch the manufacturing date of the machine into the roller bearings. When you get the set screws in the back collar and the front big gear loose, turn the woodruff key slot up, put a wooden wedge between the big front gear and the front housing to hold it in place and you are ready to start pulling the spindle. Go slow and watch for the front key to come out of the front gear and line up with a key slot in the front inside dust cover. Keep at it, you're getting there Bill ------- Re: Headstock disassembly Posted by: "Scott Henion" shenionx~xxshdesigns.org Date: Thu Mar 18, 2010 8:21 pm ((PDT)) I don't remember any slot in the front dust cover on mine. It is not needed as you can pull the key out before it hits the cover. Scott ------- Re: Headstock disassembly Posted by: "Bill Stietenroth" k5ztyx~xxjuno.com Date: Thu Mar 18, 2010 8:33 pm ((PDT)) I haven't worked on them all but the two 101.07403s I have worked on both had a slot for that key. Getting the woodruff key out isn't too bad but putting it back on re-installation would be a tedious job while trying to get everything else aligned too. The slot is nice. If the slot is not there, he will have to pull the key with a pair of pliers before it gets to the dust cover. I'd slot the dust cover before I put it back if it were mine. Bill ------- Re: Headstock disassembly Posted by: "scubanarc" scubanarcx~xxgmail.com Date: Fri Mar 19, 2010 3:06 pm ((PDT)) The headstock is out :) Turns out my front left dust cover does not have a woodruff slot cut in it. Of course I didn't realize this because there was so much gunk down there and by the time I figured it out I had already cut a new woodruff sized hole in the dust cover as I forced the key through it. I'm pretty sure I can straighten the dust cover out and make it look nice, and as an advantage it will have a slot for reinstalling the headstock. If I had it to do again I would have cleaned up the mess down there and pulled the key with a pair of pliers like Scott suggested, but hindsight is useless. Are there replacement dust covers available that I can buy? jason ------- Un-Stressing the Lathe Bed [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: "c_h_a_r_t_n_y" mgibsonx~xxstny.rr.com Date: Wed Mar 24, 2010 5:37 am ((PDT)) Un Stressing The Lathe Bed This is for a 4 bolt attachment lathes. It is about making the lathe comply with itself and not the base it is attached to. Idea is to un-stress the bed and let it self align. 1. Loosen the two bolts at the tail end a significant amount. 2. Use a screwdriver to wedge the bed off the table by a few thousandths. 3. Wedge should be in center of the bed between the near side and far side feet. 4. Use a feeler gage to compare the gap between the feet and table on each side. 5. Add a shim, equal to the difference under the higher side foot. 6. Remove the screw driver 7. Tighten the bolts. 8. You are done. Hints: 'Push' the screwdriver in as a wedge. If the gap between the table and lathe frame is too large for your screwdriver, use a block appropriate to fill the gap. Be certain there is no debris between the lathe feet and the table. The lathe does not care if it is level or not. No expensive tools needed. Meets the requirement. chart ------- Re: Un-Stressing the Lathe Bed Posted by: "jerdalx~xxsbcglobal.net" Date: Wed Mar 24, 2010 8:44 pm ((PDT)) Unless you use SOME method to verify the twist, or lack of twist, this seems totally unworkable in practice. Maybe if you put the lathe on a granite flat, but your tabletop is almost certainly NOT flat and planar and it WILL "give" when the tightening is done. Not to mention that the lathe may not itself be flat. I have noticed that the last bit of "un-twisting" is generally accomplished by varying the tightness of hold-down bolts. Surprisingly, it holds well over time. But that proves the idea that you cannot just "set it" and then "tighten down" ... the tightening process will pull it out of alignment almost certainly. JT ------- Uploaded Craftsman Manual in PDF format [atlas618lathe] Posted by: "pdjohnson07" pdjohnson07x~xxyahoo.com Date: Fri Apr 2, 2010 12:05 pm ((PDT)) I didn't see one uploaded so I scanned mine and then added some pages from the scans that were already in the files section. I took most of the scans from my manual as the ones already uploaded are very large and would have created a large file. As it is, the PDF I uploaded was just under the limit. The manual is under the Craftsman Manual folder in the files section. File name is Full_Combine.pdf. ------- [atlas618lathe] Uploaded 3 and 4 Jaw chuck maintenance and mounting instructions... Posted by: "pdjohnson07" pdjohnson07x~xxyahoo.com Date: Fri Apr 2, 2010 12:05 pm ((PDT)) I know there is already a PDF in the files section but it did not include the maintenance instructions that are on the back side of the mounting instructions, at least it is that way for mine. Anyway, I thought that some of you might find it interesting. The file name is chuck.pdf and it is in the files section. ------- [atlas_craftsman] 101.07043 Lathe: Spindle Collar Set Screw "Thread Protectors? Posted by: "BERNARD POKORSKI" calchuckx~xxprodigy.net Date: Sat Apr 3, 2010 12:24 pm ((PDT)) Hi, Yesterday, I disassembled the rear part of my lathe's spindle to check its build date. During the disassembly process, I noticed during the spindle collar removal that the 'thread protectors' that are mentioned in the disassembly instructions were MIA. They must have been lost sometime in the lathe's past... long before I got it. I suspect that the 'thread protectors' are to prevent the set screws in the spindle collar from damaging the threads on the spindle. In the lathe's parts diagram, they list only the spindle collar itself: Part # 9-32. Can anyone tell me what these 'thread protectors' were made of? I suspect that they are no longer available, and I'd like to figure out a substitute for them. The parts diagram also shows a part # 9-124 a "plug" (between the collar and the spindle gear in the parts diagram), I didn't see anything like that on my lathe... any idea what that's for? One final question, I also noticed a hole drilled in one spot on the threaded end of the spindle..... making me wonder what it's there for. Thank you for your time....... Regards, Bernie....A Little Bit South of Grass Valley, CA http://community.webshots.com/user/sonofasingerman ------- Re: 101.07043 Lathe: Spindle Collar Set Screw "Thread Protectors? Posted by: "c_h_a_r_t_n_y" mgibsonx~xxstny.rr.com Date: Sat Apr 3, 2010 12:34 pm ((PDT)) Re to Bernard: I have seen that pulg and it sayed in the nut so I did not bother it. The plug had the threads cut into it, and the other end had the set screw push against that plug. I took the set screw out and left the plug in place. No way would I bother it as the threads are cut right into it. It keeps the nut secure without damage to the spindle threads. The spindle is thin and shoud not have a flat on it. You could make a plug out of brass and OD it to just barely slip into the tapped hole. I think it is #8 but have to check. Then your set screw would just push it against the spindle thread for securing the nut. chart ------- Re: 101.07043 Lathe: Spindle Collar Set Screw "Thread Protectors? Posted by: "n8as1x~xxaol.com" docn8as Date: Sat Apr 3, 2010 1:17 pm ((PDT)) piece of lead shot under set screw works well best wishes docn8as ------- Re: 101.07043 Lathe: Spindle Collar Set Screw "Threa d Protectors? Posted by: "Bill Stietenroth" k5ztyx~xxjuno.com Date: Sat Apr 3, 2010 12:56 pm ((PDT)) I used a couple of pieces of #8 lead shot. They mash out into a nice thread protector. Bill ------- Re: 101.07043 Lathe: Spindle Collar Set Screw "Threa d Protectors? Posted by: "carvel webb" carvelwx~xxabsamail.co.za Date: Sun Apr 4, 2010 9:53 am ((PDT)) In my experience the lead sometimes tends to get jammed in the threads, making unscrewing difficult. The pads on my machines have all been made of brass - can't vouch for whether they are original or not, but also work well. Regards, Carvel ------- [atlas_craftsman] Please help: 1944 A/C lathe problems w/motor at countershaft Posted by: "joegourlay" jgourlayx~xxmindspring.com Date: Sun Apr 4, 2010 11:45 am ((PDT)) Folks, I would deeply appreciate your suggestions on a 1944 Atlas Craftsman 12x36" lathe. The lathe is in great shape, and I've had it for about 8 years. I religiously oil the heck out of everything. Last night I was using and it worked fine. This morning I came back out and it wouldn't start. You can hear the "hum" of the motor, but no go. After futzing around with it for a few hours, here is what I've found/did. 1. the motor shaft was hot spinning as freely as I'd like. Note that I've never taken the belt of to benchmark "normal". But it doesn't totally freewheel like the spindle. It would not start under no load. I don't know if this is a permanent magnet style motor. If so, that might explain the drag. 2. I spritzed in a bunch degreaser and worked the shaft quite a bit, then put in some #10. Started right up. But it's intermittment. Sometimes it will start under no load, sometimes not. If I give the pulley a little spin, it will start every time (no load). 3. Put a thermocouple on the body and let it run for 10 minutes with no load. The temp rise was 23 degrees in 10 minutes. Again, I don't know if this is normal or not. There is the slightest whiff of "electrical" smell. I haven't noticed this before. 4. Counter shaft is much stiffer than I would expect. Again, I've never really paid attention to this, but it's definitely stiffer than what I would consider normal for any shaft. Again, this has all been very well oiled. Degreaser in the cups followed by oil seems to make no difference. Motor WILL NOT start, even with a spin, if it's attached to the countershaft and the countershaft is no load. Looking at the bearings, I don't see any evidence of worn or crushed bearings, but then again I haven't gotten the shaft out either: I'm just looking at the ends. I figured I'd post here before taking everything apart (ie, risking serious damage through ignorance/stupidity). Any suggestions? ------- Re: Please help: 1944 A/C lathe problems w/motor at countershaft Posted by: "William Abernathy" williamx~xxinch.com Date: Sun Apr 4, 2010 12:21 pm ((PDT)) Two problems here. 1) Your countershaft should not be so stiff. Do what you can to loosen it up. This may include putting new bushings or bearings in it (I've never taken mine apart, so I can't tell you how this is done.) Before you try that, unpack the bearing cups, pack them with grease and screw them down tight. This will force grease through the races. If this doesn't help, you're probably on to tearing it down. The countershaft should turn with very little friction. 2) Depending on what sort of motor you have, it may or may not be designed to be able to start against a load. Fixing the countershaft will, as you've already observed, eliminate the load issue. Some temperature rise is OK once it's running. If you see smoke, it's over. Until you see smoke, if it turns and does work, it's still a working motor. From the sound of things, the countershaft is your trouble, but the motor's start windings may be headed south. My sage counsel (worth what you paid for it): Fix the countershaft bearing, then worry about the motor. William A. ------- Re: Please help: 1944 A/C lathe problems w/motor at countershaft Posted by: "Joe R" jromasx~xxcolumbus.rr.com Date: Sun Apr 4, 2010 12:27 pm ((PDT)) The hum indicates the start winding is not working. Does your lathe have a starting cap? If so it is most likely your problem. Also there's a set of contacts inside the motor that are supposed to be closed when the motor is shut off. These contacts energize the starting coil when you apply power then at a predetermined speed a centrifugal arm opens them cutting off the starting windings. These contacts can get burned or in the case of woodworking machines saw dust between the contacts may prevent the start winding to be operated. You're going to need to remove the motor end bell where the cord goes in and look around. Doing so you'll need to remove some wires being careful that you know exactly where they go back on. If this is above you then I suggest you take it to a motor shop. But be advised they don't work for free and you could end up spending a good amount of $$ on a old motor. Joe R. ------- Re: Please help: 1944 A/C lathe problems w/motor at countershaft Posted by: "carvel webb" carvelwx~xxabsamail.co.za Date: Sun Apr 4, 2010 12:36 pm ((PDT)) If it is a 'capacitor start' type motor, then it sounds like the starting circuit needs some TLC . The fact that it starts sometimes, and other times not points to a loose connection, or a suspect centrifugal switch. If Ok check the start winding and the capacitor - see files for wiring diagrams , Regards, Carvel ------- Re: Please help: 1944 A/C lathe problems w/motor at countershaft Posted by: "Bill Stietenroth" k5ztyx~xxjuno.com Date: Sun Apr 4, 2010 1:08 pm ((PDT)) Joe, When you release the motor and spindle belt tension on the countershaft pulley, it should spin freely. If it doesn't, you need to pull it apart and clean the bearings and shaft ends. If after you clean them up the shaft is sloppy in the bearings, you need to replace the sleeve bearings in the bracket and maybe the shaft if it is worn badly on the ends. Just oiling these old machines doesn't keep them clean and crud builds up in the bearings. If the countershaft is free, you have some sort of motor problem. My air compressor wouldn't start every time. Sometimes it would try to start and then quit. I fooled around looking for the problem in the motor for an hour or so and finally found that the screws in power cord plug were loose. It can be that simple. Don't assume, like I did, that all that stuff is ok. Check all connections from the plug to the motor for continuity. Electric cords get old and the wire inside the insulation breaks. The motor bearings should be free spinning also. If they are not, they have to be fixed and just oiling them again won't fix it. If you are not comfortable with taking the motor apart, find a repair shop to clean and put new bearings in your motor and check it out electrically. Check price, you may find a new fractional horsepower motor cheaper than the repair. Look for a used motor on Craigslist or something. Bill ------- Re: Please help: 1944 A/C lathe problems w/motor at countershaft Posted by: "joegourlay" jgourlayx~xxmindspring.com Date: Sun Apr 4, 2010 2:09 pm ((PDT)) Could you walk me through, step by step, the right way to remove the counter shaft? ------- Re: Please help: 1944 A/C lathe problems w/motor at countershaft Posted by: "joegourlay" jgourlayx~xxmindspring.com Date: Sun Apr 4, 2010 7:25 pm ((PDT)) Bill, as I start to work the shaft out, the drive cone wants to bump into the gear. This may not be bad, but it can't be good. Also, i am having to tap it out with a wooden dowel. Is there a good way to isolate the drive cone? This may seem like a stupid question, but I really value the methods of others who have already done this kind of thing. ------- Re: Please help: 1944 A/C lathe problems w/moto r at countershaft Posted by: "Bill Stietenroth" k5ztyx~xxjuno.com Date: Sun Apr 4, 2010 2:42 pm ((PDT)) I am assuming your 12" 1944 machine is of the 101.07403 type. Take the belt off of the motor and take the tension off of the spindle belt so that the counter shaft is free. If the shaft is all gunked up with oil, rust and dirt, clean it up as best you can. There is a set screw in the step pulley hub that holds it in place on the shaft. Loosen the set screw. There is a set screw in the collar on the motor pulley end of the shaft. Loosen that set screw. Move that collar in toward the step pulley far enough to check the shaft for a set screw mark on the shaft that needs to be filed off before you pull the shaft through the bearing. Now, the shaft should pull out from the motor pulley end. There is a woodruff key under the step pulley, watch for it to come out from under the pulley and pull it out of the shaft with a pair of pliers. You may have to wiggle the shaft back and forth using some WD40 or something to loosen the gunk on the shaft so it will pull through the pulley, collar and bearing. Don't beat on it with a hammer. You might have to take a wooden stick and use a hammer to tap the stick against the hub of the step pulley to work the pulley off of the woodruff key. Take your time, work it out, don't tear it out. You can break the counter shaft bracket if you try to drive the shaft out with hammer and punch. If you have to replace the bronze bushings in the bracket, remember to support each bearing race as you remove and replace the bushings. Remember to put your spindle belt back over the shaft when you put it back together. You don't want to get it all back together and then see the spindle belt hanging loose on the spindle. That kinda takes the wind out of your sails. I hope this helps. Bill ------- Re: Please help: 1944 A/C lathe problems w/moto r at countershaft Posted by: "joegourlay" jgourlayx~xxmindspring.com Date: Sun Apr 4, 2010 5:12 pm ((PDT)) Bill, thanks! The admonitions about things like the set screw burr are golden! ------- Re: Please help: 1944 A/C lathe problems w/moto r at countershaft Posted by: "Bill Stietenroth" k5ztyx~xxjuno.com Date: Mon Apr 5, 2010 6:48 am ((PDT)) Getting the cone pulley off of the woodruff key is the hard part. It takes patience. Work from the drive pulley end with your dowel. Stick it through the spokes in the big pulley and drive on the hub of the cone pulley. You have about 3/8" between the cone pulley and the big back gear to work with. After you move the cone pulley as far as it will go, put something between the spoked pulley and the bracket to hold it there and use the dowel to move the cone pulley again. A pair of vice grips will hold the space you create between the spoked pulley and the bracket while you move the cone pulley. Once the cone pulley is off the woodruff key you can twist the shaft back and forth to work it out the rest of the way. With a one piece belt on the spindle, you don't have much other choice for getting it apart. If you had a link belt, you could take the belt off and let the countershaft bracket tilt back beyond the big back gear. But, even in that case, you can't just get a bigger hammer and beat it off of there. You have to take these old machines apart, you can't beat them apart unless you want to spend a lot of time an money looking for and buying parts. Keep at it. Bill ------- Re: Please help: 1944 A/C lathe problems w/moto r at countershaft Posted by: "joegourlay" jgourlayx~xxmindspring.com Date: Tue Apr 6, 2010 6:19 pm ((PDT)) Bill, for some reason what I thought I posted last night didn't take. It appears the problem is with the two forks being differentially stressed. Long story short, if I put a wood block under the motor, and remove the drive belt (I do have link belt btw), the countershaft runs free. However, if I remove the belt and let the assembly hang there with no wood block behind the motor, it is tight. What do you think? ------- Re: Please help: 1944 A/C lathe problems w/moto r at countershaft Posted by: "Bill Stietenroth" k5ztyx~xxjuno.com Date: Tue Apr 6, 2010 6:59 pm ((PDT)) Did you get this reply from me last night Joe? It came from and went to mgourlayx~xxmi........... "Good evening Joe, That key is a little woodruff about 1/8" wide. If you can't find it you might take the shaft to an Ace Hardware or Sears Hardware and find one to fit it. It is an American standard size, not metric. I lost mine too and made one out of a piece of 1/8" flat bar by grinding one corner to a radius that would fit into the slot then cut it off to the right height with a hacksaw. Take some steel wool, Scotch Brite, 600 grit wet or dry paper or some such and buff up the inside surface of those bearings in the bracket. (Buff the end of the shaft too while you are at it.) If they are porous, you should be able to see that the surface is not polished like solid bronze would be. Even if they are porous it wouldn't hurt to drill a real small (1/32") hole through it from the oil cup then put some felt or cotton in the cup to slow the oil flow. Motor oil gets old and gummy and stops up Oilite bearings. They are made to be lubed with a lite oil like 3-n-1. I wouldn't worry about the small imperfections inside them. As for the forks,I'm surprised that it twists that easily. It has the tensioner rod on the motor pulley side pushing against the belt when it is in place and the weight of the motor hanging off the end of it. It may be that your bearings are just too tight. Check it again after you clean them out with the fine abrasive. Look closely to make sure that there are no cracks in the legs or cross bars of the bracket. If it is still tight, you might put the shaft into the bearings and take a plastic faced hammer and smack the shaft right up next to the bearings as you turn the shaft and see if that will shift the sleeves in the bracket enough to free it up. I almost always have to do that with new sleeve bearings to align them so the shaft will be completely free. Hope this helps" Bill ------- Clean and oil Thoughts [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: "catboat15x~xxaol.com" olewilly2000 Date: Fri Apr 23, 2010 6:35 pm ((PDT)) The thing about oiling your Atlas is learning where some of the "hidden" oil ports are located. There is one down in the bottom of the cluster pulleys on the spindle. This allows you to oil the bearings on the cluster pulley which turns separately from the spindle when in back gear. There are also points to oil reached by removing slot head screws on the compound and cross slide that allow oil to reach the nuts on those slides. And don't forget that one on right hand end of the lead screw. Of course the change gears (If like mine with loose gears) need a bit of lube both on the gear studs and on the teeth to avoid that "clatter". (I use a grease from Molylube on the gear teeth.) The lubrication on an Atlas is a full loss system where the oil just drips through and ends up on the bench. That is the reason Atlas recommended a "non detergent" oil for spindles. Detergent oils are great for automobile engines where the oil is circulated through a filter, but we don't want to suspend the crud in the oil but use the oil to wash through the junk and crud you may have gathered and carry it out onto your bench, oil pan or floor. Don't wear your "Sunday go to meeting" best clothes when using your lathe. It is not a clean hobby like stamp collecting. Take off watches, rings and necktie before getting close to rotating parts. A tool that can cut metal has no trouble at all to cut skin and meat. ------- Re: Clean and oil Thoughts Posted by: "wheezer" wheezer606x~xxverizon.net Date: Fri Apr 23, 2010 6:55 pm ((PDT)) One interesting lube point is at the right side of the apron. A set screw is removed to allow lubing the scroll and half nuts. As I reassembled my A/C 12, I circled all the lube points on the machine with a silver paint pen. I'll see how long the paint lasts under a constant flow of total loss oil. lance ------- Re: Clean and oil Thoughts Posted by: "Dan Buchanan" db45acpx~xxyahoo.com Date: Fri Apr 23, 2010 8:10 pm ((PDT)) Use an enamel paint marker. They come in a rainbow of colors. I use yellow for them to stand out. db ------- NOTE TO FILE: Many questions you might have about fixing or using an Atlas lathe may be found here. A truly valuable site: http://bellsouthpwp.net/t/h/thib9564/Atlas_Lathe.htm ------- Darn gear broke [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: "Rods machine shop and suzuki repair" rrowzee1954x~xxhotmail.com Date: Sat May 29, 2010 3:57 pm ((PDT)) Well was turning something on my 12 inch craftsman lathe and the transverse gear broke. Took the carriage off lathe and found someone had tried to fix the gear housing before that holds the gears what a crappy aluminum weld job. Lol saw a piece of the weld came loose and jammed the gears breaking the small 12 tooth gear that runs on the long feed shaft on the side of lathe. I was going to tig weld it but instead will make the gear holding housing out of a block of steel or from a new block of aluminum. Never did like cast aluminum since not as strong as made from a machined block of aluminum. ------- Re: Darn gear broke Posted by: "wheezer" wheezer606x~xxverizon.net Date: Sat May 29, 2010 4:12 pm ((PDT)) One of the most oft broken parts on the Atlas lathes. Not made from Al, made from cast Zamak, with strength = cardboard. 6061 Al alloy would be as strong as mild steel and easier to machine. lance ------- Re: Darn gear broke Posted by: "ahz" ahzx~xxinsightbb.com Date: Sat May 29, 2010 4:26 pm ((PDT)) Here's the replacement I made for mine. http://tony-stormcrow.blogspot.com/2009/06/replacing-atlascrafts man-part-9-11.html ------- Re: Darn gear broke Posted by: "ahz" ahzx~xxinsightbb.com Date: Sat May 29, 2010 5:59 pm ((PDT)) On May 29, 2010, at 8:49 PM, Rods machine shop and suzuki repair wrote: > the unit is a nice but would make it with threaded holes heli coiled > so dont have to fight to get to the nuts to tighten would make holes > in carriage larger to adjust for gear back lash and fit. There isn't much iron in the aprons, the old style aprons, anyway. There's a plateau of iron where the bolt holes are, and air otherwise. Not a lot of room to adjust. The nuts were easy enough to get on. The heli coil is a good idea however. I ended up having to file the holes in the aluminum a little to get the best fit. I got mine to about 95% of where I would liked. It will last the rest of my life. Had I marked the mounting holes in the aluminum part with a transfer punch as the last operation, it would have fit nearly perfectly straight away. ------- Re: Alloys [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: "Jon Elson" elsonx~xxpico-systems.com Date: Mon May 31, 2010 2:33 pm ((PDT)) ahz wrote: > A lot of things are made of Zamak, to this day. Zamak, like brussels > sprouts, can be used for good or for evil. > Most Atlas Zamak parts are ok. > That being said, Zamak was a poor choice for the the carriage gear > housing (part 9-11) Actually, I think Zamak would have been OK for this part, but it needed a little more beef at the stress concentration points, where the "legs" join the plate. The real problem, I THINK, with this part is the screws holding it to the apron work loose, putting much grater stress on the legs. I noticed this early on my lathe, and made a regular point of checking the screws and tightening them. Maybe that is why I never broke my gear box. Jon ------- Re: How I removed the bearing race [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: "c_h_a_r_t_n_y" mgibsonx~xxstny.rr.com Date: Mon May 31, 2010 5:18 am ((PDT)) Dave Hylands wrote: > I thought I would document how I removed the outer bearing race from my 12x36. I used the same technique to remove the spindle as well. http://picasaweb.google.com/dhylands/AtlasBearingRemoval?auth key=Gv1sRgCPjLiLvkrdvusQE# This worked really well. I tried using a hammer and block of wood on the spindle, but it didn't budge. With the "all thread press" it just slid out nice and easy. Dave Hylands Shuswap, BC, Canada http://www.DaveHylands.com/ < Re to Dave: Nice idea and quite clever. I might add a thought or two. Pressing them back in can work equally well but you need a different size pusher. This is where the scrap parts box helps. Also, you can use a large washer and turn the OD to match the need, but of course it would need to be done before you take your lathe out of service. {;-)) I have a bushing drive set but it only goes up to 1 1/2". I got an assortment of large washers at a surplus store by the pound and I got the brass ones of various sizes. Have a fine Memorial Day. chart ------- Re: How I removed the bearing race Posted by: "Dave Hylands" dhylandsx~xxgmail.com Date: Mon May 31, 2010 8:18 pm ((PDT)) Hi chart, Actually, I was able to use the 2" pipe joiner piece to remove and replace both the left and right outer races on my 12x36. The cover caps (not sure what the proper name is) were a different matter altogether. I also had to back off the right oil cover (this is the inner cover plate for the right bearing) slightly. It was so tight against the outer bearing that no oil would drip through from the oiling cap. Giving it a love tap backed it off enough to allow the oil to flow. Dave Hylands Shuswap, BC, Canada http://www.DaveHylands.com/ ------- Re: How I removed the bearing race Posted by: "oldstudentmsgt" wmrmeyersx~xxsbcglobal.net Date: Mon May 31, 2010 9:49 am ((PDT)) I have a set of 3/4" drive sockets, and often use them to drive bearings and seals. IIRC, the largest socket is for 54mm nuts, it's about 2-3/4's inches in diameter, and will easily take a piece of 1/2" allthread. Works fine for hammer drive, too. Smallest is about an inch. Hope this helps! Bill in OKC ------- Re: How I removed the bearing race Posted by: "rod rowzee" rrowzee1954x~xxhotmail.com Date: Mon May 31, 2010 10:04 am ((PDT)) Best to use a bear race installer. They are cheap. http://www.tooltopia.com/astro-pneumatic-7824.aspx?utm_sour ce=nextag&utm_medium=cse&utm_term=AST7824&utm_campaign=nextag_r1 ------- Re: How I removed the bearing race Posted by: "oldstudentmsgt" wmrmeyersx~xxsbcglobal.net Date: Tue Jun 1, 2010 9:21 am ((PDT)) "Best' is the enemy of "Good Enough." I've got the socket set, for which I paid less than the tool you linked. If I were doing this sort of thing professionally, it might be different. I think I've done four bearings in the past 5 or 6 years, and what I have works well enough. For that matter, with my lathe, I could make a set of drivers like those shown, from scrap. If I find myself doing more bearings over the next few years, I may go that route. I've actually got a set similar to the link, but with smaller drivers, that I could make more accessories for... What works for you may be impossible for me because our skills and tools differ, and vice versa. I've been scavenging and making do for most of my life. Don't get me wrong, I've got "Tool Envy" at least as bad as anyone else, but I mostly look for what will work with what I have, not what is the best tool to buy. Bill in OKC ------- Re: How I removed the bearing race Posted by: "Bill Stietenroth" k5ztyx~xxjuno.com Date: Tue Jun 1, 2010 9:50 am ((PDT)) I'm with you Bill. I'm a home shop mechanic and I don't buy until I have used up all the resources I have on hand. I make all the tools I am capable of making and they usually have customised features for the job that I am doing that are not available on store bought tools. I don't need a collection of "fits all" tool sets that I used one piece out of one time and now have no use for the other pieces. A professional mechanic will have a different take on this because he never knows what he will run into next. Bill in Houston ------- Re: How I removed the bearing race Posted by: "Cindy & Wayne Burner" burners4x~xxcomcast.net Date: Tue Jun 1, 2010 12:17 pm ((PDT)) I do some front fork seals on motorcycles quite often. A real set of seal drivers are two piece, and look like a piece pipe slit lengthwise, and machine fit with pins. Most of my homemade ones are aluminum, brass, even PVC. Thanks to my 10" with QCGB. Wayne(rice)Burner Smokey skies in NH ------- Re: How I removed the bearing race Posted by: "rod rowzee" rrowzee1954x~xxhotmail.com Date: Mon May 31, 2010 8:38 pm ((PDT)) A neat trick when pressing something back in: get a green scotch brite pad and clean the bore good with it so it is smooth and no rust. Put the bearing races in freezer for a hour; most time the races will just push in by hand. I do that at my machine shop when installing valve guides; most times they just drop in and I don't even have to press in. Remember heat expands metal and cold contracts metal. I warm the cylinder heads to like a 190 degrees when installing guides. ------- Re: How I removed the bearing race Posted by: "c_h_a_r_t_n_y" mgibsonx~xxstny.rr.com Date: Tue Jun 1, 2010 6:43 am ((PDT)) Re to Rod: "I warm the cylinder heads to like a 190 degrees when installing guides.." In the good old days, when I first worked on cars, in the 1950's, rear axle bearings failed often and were a pain to get on. We heated the bearing on a 100W light bulb for 15 minutes, thus the inner race got hotter, and then dropped it on the axle with the flange on a concrete block and used a washer the right size and a section of pipe as a "thumper". Once you start a thermal fit, you must complete the process quickly or: oh well. On the bearing the retaining ring we would torch until it turned blue, and it would drop on. And the rest of the story. It was important to think twice, assemble once. The retaining flange goes on first. {;-)) Happy turning and fitting. chart ------- Re: How I removed the bearing race Posted by: "c_h_a_r_t_n_y" mgibsonx~xxstny.rr.com Date: Tue Jun 1, 2010 6:20 am ((PDT)) Re to Dave: "had to back off the right oil cover (this is the inner cover plate for the right bearing) slightly." The book name is dust cover and on mine, a 618 it has a notch to allow oil through. If the notch is not aligned, it is useless. One end of mine would not let oil through and that was the first time I took it apart to see why. It was not aligned before, and it must have been a factory error. My book calls both the same part no but mine are not alike. One has a key notch and the other not. Important for easy removal of the spindle with the key in place. Of course other lathes will be different, that would be too easy. Happy turning. chart ------- Re: How I removed the bearing race Posted by: "Dave Hylands" dhylandsx~xxgmail.com Date: Tue Jun 1, 2010 11:17 am ((PDT)) Hi Chart: On mine, there are no notches in the dust cover or the bearing race. The casting on the left side had a notch integrated into the casting. On the right side, there was no equivalent notch. It's interesting because the oil goes down between the inner dust cover and the outer bearing race. The only way that oil will get to the outer side of the race bearing is to fill the gap between the dust cover and the bearing race and then overflow to the other side. On the left bearing, oil drips down on both sides. Is this normal? Should I add a notch in the casting? Getting oil into the right places seems crucial :) I'm away from my lathe right this week(until Friday), but I can take some pictures to show what's happening this coming weekend. Dave Hylands Shuswap, BC, Canada http://www.DaveHylands.com/ ------- [Removing an Atlas Lathe Upper Compound that has Stuck Pins] Re: Craftsman 101.07301 questions [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: "ok.dokay" stevex~xxfinetools.com Date: Thu Jun 24, 2010 10:54 am ((PDT)) On Jun 17, 2010, Steve Johnson wrote: > > Hi, I am the proud new owner of an old Craftsman 101.07301 lathe. I am trying to disassemble it for inspection and cleaning. Are there any pictures or guidance for this on the Internet? For example, I want to remove the upper compound of the cross-slide. I removed the two allen head set screws, but the upper still does not want to come off (at least not with hand force). It gets noticeably looser, but doesn't pop off. << ahz wrote: > There are two angled pins in the holes still. Jiggle it some as you pull upward gently to convince the pins to go into the bolt holes and the compound will come off. < I still haven 't success in gently removing the upper compound. I have totally removed the two allen set screws, and jiggled gently trying to get the pins out, but for some reason they don't seem to be moving. I have spun the upper compound around and tried jiggling from various orientations, still to no avail. What is the next step? I suppose I could try drilling the pins out, but that seems extreme and risks damaging a lot of things (threads, compound boss, etc.) I also thought of using some instant glue on the end of a small rod to make connection with the pins and pull them out, but that could get messy also, so thought I'd ask once more before trying my hair-brained ideas. ------- Re: Craftsman 101.07301 questions Posted by: "JACK SIMS" jack-br549x~xxatt.net Date: Thu Jun 24, 2010 10:58 am ((PDT)) Have you tried to use a small diameter magnet to try to pull them out? Jack Sims ------- Re: Craftsman 101.07301 questions Posted by: "Rexarino" rexarinox~xxgmail.com Date: Fri Jun 25, 2010 2:36 pm ((PDT)) Use a small magnet to reach in and pull the pins. If they don't move, use more solvent or rust buster. ------- Re: Craftsman 101.07301 questions Posted by: "c_h_a_r_t_n_y" mgibsonx~xxstny.rr.com Date: Thu Jun 24, 2010 11:11 am ((PDT)) The pins do not need to come out, just move back a bit. They are not frozen or you could not be able to rotate the turret. They have moved some but not enough. You could spray something like "liquid wrench", then put the screws back in and tighten them down, then take them back out. That would cause the pins to move a tick in and help the fluid get in there. Haste makes waste. You would likely not be able to drill them out. They would just turn with the drill and you would damage the threads in the turret. You could repeat the spray and tap the turret with a plastic mallet. chart ------- Re: Craftsman 101.07301 questions Posted by: "Bill Stietenroth" k5ztyx~xxjuno.com Date: Thu Jun 24, 2010 12:10 pm ((PDT)) OK: The pins in the hole are tapered on the end to match with a taper on the compound mounting post to draw the compound down and tight against the cross slide when you tighten the screws. To remove the compound you should be able to loosen the screws and pull up on the compound and rock it slightly back and forth which causes the pins to retreat into the screw holes. Your pins are probably gunked up from years of un-use and dried lubricants and dirt. You are going to need some penetrating oil/solvent. WD-40 comes to mind, there are others and it probably doesn't matter which one you use. Spray it liberally into the screw hole and rotate the compound on its post and use a soft face mallet to rap it side to side to cause the penetrant to soak through the pin holes. Now pull up on the compound while tapping it with the soft face mallet. Wiggle it up and down and round and round work it off the post. If you try to short cut the job and drill, hammer, bang, wedge, force it, you are going to break something and spend a lot of money and time looking for parts and fixing stuff. These old machines have to be taken apart, you can't beat them apart. Be patient, it will come off. good luck, Bill in Houston ------- Re: Craftsman 101.07301 questions Posted by: "ahz" ahzx~xxinsightbb.com Date: Thu Jun 24, 2010 2:45 pm ((PDT)) Here are the parts you're fighting... http://tony-stormcrow.blogspot.com/2010/05/compound.html ------- Re: Craftsman 101.07301 questions Posted by: "ok.dokay" stevex~xxfinetools.com Date: Thu Jun 24, 2010 3:31 pm ((PDT)) Thanks Bill. I worked on the slide for about half an hour, at one point removing the first two "levels" of the compound so I could work with it off the lathe. I found a third set screw under the handle so I removed that one also. I sprayed brake cleaner followed by air followed by Kroil in the holes and tapped with a nylon tip mallet for most of that time. I repeated the process several times. I was about to give up when lo and behold one of the tapered pins slid out! At least now I could see the devil I was up against. I sprayed more Kroil, tapped and tapped, even heat it area up and let it cool a couple times. Tapped and tapped. I spent an hour more on it. Neither the pin under the handle or the other side pin has budged. What's next? ------- Re: Craftsman 101.07301 questions Posted by: "Bill Stietenroth" k5ztyx~xxjuno.com Date: Thu Jun 24, 2010 4:17 pm ((PDT)) You're getting there OK, what you need is a six-pack of patience. Don't break something and be careful with a lot of heat around these machines, some of the parts melt at about 700 deg. F. There are only 2 pins, the ones under the 3/8" square head set screws, that hold that swivel on the cross slide post. The third set screw under the handle is not holding the swivel base on. You got one of the taper pins out, concentrate on the other one. Stand that assembly up so the taper pin hole is upright and will hold Kroil and spray it full and let it stand until it completely runs through. After it does, turn it the other way so the pin could fall out and start the tapping, rocking, wiggling and pulling apart of the two pieces. It ain't easy, you just gotta' do it. It will eventually come out. Ain't old machinery fun?? Bill ------- Re: Craftsman 101.07301 questions Posted by: "Dean" deanwx~xxbmi.net Date: Thu Jun 24, 2010 8:48 pm ((PDT)) [Mike reported his lathe was missing the pins in this conversation.] My 618 has them, Mike. Too easy to make to waste postage on buying them. I just pulled one out of my compound and did a quick sketch. Check it out: http://tinyurl.com/24ch5hj I would make them out of drill rod. Their use would dictate them being hardened and tempered to blue, similar to the hardness of a chisel. I don't think you'd want them as hard as you would for a mill cutter, but almost; certainly not left soft or they would surely deform and upset in their bores. Dean ------- Re: Craftsman 101.07301 questions Posted by: "William Abernathy" williamx~xxinch.com Date: Fri Jun 25, 2010 9:34 am ((PDT)) [William Abernathy reported earlier that these pins on his lathe had been made from brass.] Why would you want hardened pins? Make them out of brass, so as not to chew up the cross-slide pintle, as happened to the last one. You can get all the holding power you need without horsing down on the holddown bolts, and if Mongo is really alarmed about the prospect of mushrooming brass pins, Mongo can turn them a little undersized. William A. ------- Re: Craftsman 101.07301 questions Posted by: "Dean" deanwx~xxbmi.net Date: Fri Jun 25, 2010 6:44 pm ((PDT)) I don't know who Mongo is, pal, but if you make the pins correctly, they will not chew up the pintle. Making them out of soft material provides a good chance of upsetting them in the holes, and then you really will have trouble getting them out. FWIW, I just checked the ones in my 618, and they are hardened. A file won't touch them. Dean ------- Re: Craftsman 101.07301 questions Posted by: "Bill Stietenroth" k5ztyx~xxjuno.com Date: Fri Jun 25, 2010 7:20 pm ((PDT)) The angle on those pins matches the angle on the cross slide pintle. They don't lock the swivel against the pintle, they lock the swivel by forcing it down against the cross slide to stop the rotation and to prevent chatter. If you make pins out of soft material and turn them undersize they will try to bend under the down forcing of the swivel and if undersized will wobble in the hole and not contact the pintle at the correct angle. Atlas probably knew what they were doing when they made them hardened steel. Bill ------- Re: Craftsman 101.07301 questions Posted by: "jmartin957x~xxaol.com" Date: Fri Jun 25, 2010 3:09 pm ((PDT)) > Why would you want hardened pins? Make them out of brass... can turn them a little undersized. William A. < Turn them a little undersized and the fit of the pin in the hole won't be the sliding fit that you want for the best support. Make them of brass and eventually they will mushroom with use, without horsing down on the screws. If they mushroom, they won't retract into the holes all the way, and may not allow you to remove the compound. They were originally made of hardened steel for a good reason. Rust or congealed oil may be the reason the OP is having trouble retracting the pin. If the pin is moving enough to allow the compound to lock and loosen, however, it's more likely that a deformed pin is not allowing it to retract. John Martin ------- Re: Craftsman 101.07301 questions Posted by: "Bill Stietenroth" k5ztyx~xxjuno.com Date: Fri Jun 25, 2010 9:43 am ((PDT)) I don't have a 618 so I am may be out of school here but I do know that the OEM pins in the 12" machines are hardened steel. If someone has brass pins in a 12" machine, they have been replaced. Bill ------- Re: Craftsman 101.07301 questions Posted by: "James Rice" james.ricex~xxgmail.com Date: Fri Jun 25, 2010 9:53 am ((PDT)) I have a 101-07301 and my pins are hardened steel. In my case my pins were so stuck by rust as was the compound assembly I couldn't free them so I finally replaced the M6-301 compound rest swivel and the M6-302 tool post swivel. I tried heat, vibration, electrolysis, heat, magnets, drilling and every type of penetrating oil I could buy or borrow. After 6 months I gave up and bought the parts on evil-bay. The pins I ordered from Clausing and they supplied hardened steel pins. James in Dallas ------- Re: Craftsman 101.07301 questions Posted by: "rod rowzee" rrowzee1954x~xxhotmail.com Date: Fri Jun 25, 2010 10:07 am ((PDT)) What works good is just good old candle wax or beeswax. I use wax sticks from Goodson Tools to remove rusted oil galley plugs in engine blocks. Just heat the area with a torch and apply a candle stick to area. http://www.goodson.com/store/template/product_detail.php?IID=4726 ------- Re: Craftsman 101.07301 questions Posted by: "JACK SIMS" jack-br549x~xxatt.net Date: Fri Jun 25, 2010 10:03 pm ((PDT)) I remade the ones for my 12x36" out of hardened dowel pins and ground the angle on the ends like the original ones and have had NO problems with them. Jack Sims Carrollton, Texas ------- Re: Craftsman 101.07301 questions Posted by: "Lee Miller" goto.lee.1stx~xxgmail.com Date: Mon Jun 28, 2010 10:09 am ((PDT)) David: Maybe not the best way but it worked for me. I took a counter set screw, cleaned all the parts very well, put some JB Weld on the head of the screw. Set the screw head against the pin, let it set up. Then put a nut and washer on the threaded side of the screw and pulled it out. Lee ------- Re: Craftsman 101.07301 questions Posted by: "Steve Johnson" stevex~xxfinetools.com Date: Mon Jun 28, 2010 2:31 pm ((PDT)) Success! Before trying the last ditch prying effort, I decided to throw the whole upper into my ultrasonic cleaner for 30 minutes. I think the combination of cleaning and cavitation action got the pin loose enough to move and I got things apart. Thanks everyone for your ideas, especially the suggestions to be patient. That is what saved these parts (and by the way the damn pin was slightly deformed so I will need to make a new one or relieve the mushrooming on this one). I think there was one unanswered question about where all the Kroil I put into the pin hole went -- it ultimately went through the pin hole, around the "pindle", and out the other side into a bunch of paper towels. As an aside, I also got to shape a new face for my nylon tapping mallet as the nylon got pretty chewed up on the cast iron. Steve Johnson ------- Re: Craftsman 101.07301 questions Posted by: "JACK SIMS" jack-br549x~xxatt.net Date: Mon Jun 28, 2010 3:12 pm ((PDT)) Patience pays off sometimes. Better than beating the crap out of everything, but that feels good sometimes(:-) Jack Sims Carrollton, Texas ------- Re: Craftsman 101.07301 questions Posted by: "Michael Michalski" pflatlynex~xxyahoo.com Date: Mon Jun 28, 2010 8:15 pm ((PDT)) If you go up to the Sears website you can find a parts list. What I did when I got mine was to take a highlighter and go over the whole list, checking off every part and making sure I had it. It also helped me find some bubbafied parts that I replaced with the correct ones. ------- [Repair Atlas 618 broken counter-shaft] Re: Max safe spindle speed? [atlas618lathe] Posted by: "Michael Michalski" pflatlynex~xxyahoo.com Date: Mon Jun 28, 2010 7:58 pm ((PDT)) The top part of my counter-shaft broke and I made a new one out of angle iron. (I couldn't get the original one to weld, it would just break again at a different spot; in retrospect, I should have reheated it after welding and then let it cool in a bucket of sand.) I started cutting a piece that was as long as the top of the counter-shaft is wide. If I had to do it again I would either braze or weld it with acetylene, because I'm much better at that than arc welding. I placed two steel bushings sized to accept two oilite bushings that fit the main pulley shaft on the angle iron (that I bought from the hardware store) which kept them aligned co-axially, clamped them and welded them in place. I then did the same with two bushings for the shaft that the two pieces pivot on. (The lower part was fine, so I just needed the upper one.) I then cut all the other pieces which were easy enough to weld into place since they mostly went at right angles in the same plane. Once I was done with that, I did a little trimming with a bandsaw and cut the center out of the top part. The key was, since the angle iron was straight, and the bushings sat in the angle iron (I turned it so the angle was down and sat it on some wood blocks while welding) they ended up perfectly parallel to the shaft, which my first attempt at making one failed to get right. ------- 618 ATLAS Spindle Removal Issues... [atlas618lathe] Posted by: "ferroglyph" ferroglyphx~xxhotmail.com Date: Mon Jul 19, 2010 8:57 pm ((PDT)) Hi Guys, Thanks for all of the helpful links for spindle removal. I am in it right now...but have hit a rather uncomfortable snag. The instructions have you remove all of the retainers on the LH spindle side. I have done this and loosened all of the set screws, etc. It is now time to tap out the spindle to the RH side and remove. It keeps getting stuck. I have used a plastic hammer to tap gently....and then a little harder. I originally thought it was the LH bearing hanging up but later noticed it has an undercut bore so it should just slide out. Alas I have identified the culprit. The Spindle pulley set has a small set screw that threads down and locates on the spindle itself. This was removed by me and I looked inside...gasp! The set screw had gouged the spindle in that area under the pulley enough to not allow the pulley to slide off the spindle. The gouges are not too deep but will prevent me from going further. Any suggestions on how to remove them? I just can't seem to get to them the traditional way. The spindle really needs to come off also as the bearing is really dirty! Any assistance would be a real help...Thank you The Other Greg S. ------- Re: 618 ATLAS Spindle Removal Issues... Posted by: "Dean" deanwx~xxbmi.net deanofid Date: Mon Jul 19, 2010 10:58 pm ((PDT)) Greg, before you go further, read my page about spindle removal for the 618. The bronze bearing models and the roller bearing models are not precisely the same, but quite similar. http://www.deansphotographica.com/machining/atlas/spindle/spindle.html There will be a little room between the end of the large gear and the bearings where you can use a small fine file to remove those burrs. Don't run them through the bearings! Do Not Tap On The End Of The Spindle until you have removed the burrs left from the set screw. The large gear on the spindle also has a woodruff key under it that has to come out. I think there are enough pics on my webpage to help you out. Dean ------- Re: 618 ATLAS Spindle Removal Issues... Posted by: "ferroglyph" ferroglyphx~xxhotmail.com Date: Tue Jul 20, 2010 8:02 pm ((PDT)) Hi Guys! Problem solved. It just hit me! BAM!!! I hemmed and hawed all night...Until like 3am!!! "How do I remove the rather substantial burrs/gouges left by the set screw for the bull gear pulley that were left underneath the pulley surface on the spindle face?" These lil' buggers prevented the spindle from sliding to release the pulley. Simple Solution: Then BLAMMO! It's a lathe! Right! I simply put the butt end or a tiny file inside the pulley's threaded hole and held it tight to the spindle while turning the spindle. The hardened file end scraped the raised edges of the burr flat enough. I blew out the scrapings with compressed air and Voila! The spindle came out real easy! Unbelievable how a simple solution can be found after a good night's rest. LOL Cheers! The Other Greg S. ------- adjust half nuts? [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: "audi200qpilot" las1940x~xxcomcast.net Date: Tue Jul 20, 2010 8:28 pm ((PDT)) The half nuts of my 101.07403 QC lift the lead screw a small amount when the nuts are engaged. I have not measured the amount of lift, but by eyeball it appears to be somewhere between a 32nd and 16th. There is no noticeable binding nor any distressful sounds when the carriage is near either end of the lead screw, so I suppose there's no real need to correct the condition, but I am wondering if anyone has encountered a similar misalignment and worked out a fix. I'd like to see the alignment more closely centered. The machine has not been modified, no shims added or removed, bed ground, etc. No noticeable wear at any area of the ways -- the machine is in near new condition. Thanks for any ideas from you wizards. ------- Re: adjust half nuts? Posted by: "bill phelps" sweetwaterent2000x~xxyahoo.com Date: Tue Jul 20, 2010 9:04 pm ((PDT)) If it ain't broke, don't try to fix it. That small amount of lift is normal as the lead screw probably has a small droop. ------- Re: adjust half nuts? Posted by: "audi200qpilot" las1940x~xxcomcast.net Date: Tue Jul 20, 2010 10:04 pm ((PDT)) Thanks, you're probably right about that. I measured the lift with a height gauge after posting the question, and found it is .021", not even a 32nd. ------- Re: adjust half nuts? Posted by: "c_h_a_r_t_n_y" mgibsonx~xxstny.rr.com Date: Wed Jul 21, 2010 5:25 am ((PDT)) Re to audi. Fix it? If you want near perfection, no problem. The bearings on each end are held in place by two screws. Loosen them and raise the bearing within the free play in the screw holes to make you happy and retighten the screws. You will feel much better for the experience. I did. Happy turning. chart ------- Re: adjust half nuts? Posted by: "Dean" deanwx~xxbmi.net Date: Wed Jul 21, 2010 5:13 pm ((PDT)) If it's just a little sag, it shouldn't cause problems. If it's because the leadscrew has a slight bend in it though, it can make a difference to your finish cut. A bend will push up and down (and side to side) on the half nuts, which can cause the speed of the carriage to vary slightly as it travels. You would see that in your cuts if it were very pronounced. Dean ------- Spindle Axial Play [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: "rjconley2003" rconleyx~xxsocal.rr.com Date: Wed Jul 21, 2010 6:34 pm ((PDT)) I picked up an Atlas TH-36 lathe a few weekends ago. I am slowly disassembling and cleaning it. It hasn't been run in years so everything is gunked up, dried out and the P.O. was turning wood on the lathe. The only broken parts I have found so far are the tool post slide casting and the handle for the tool post slide. 1) What has me puzzled at the moment is the axial movenent of the two gears and step pulley on the spindle. I can move all 3 about an 1/8" along the spindle. The manual indicates that the small pulley is locked to the step pulley. That doesn't seem to be the case since I can slide the step pulley and large bull gear along the shaft and disengage the small pulley. Pulling the pin that locks the large bull gear to the step pulley then pushing the three together allows the two gears on the spindle to line up with the gears on the back gear assembly. Is this axial play normal or are my panties all twisted up over nothing? 2) If I remove the headstock from the bed for cleaning and painting will there be an alignment issue when I reinstall it? From the posts that I have read so far this doen't appear to be an issue. Bob ------- Re: Spindle Axial Play Posted by: "Bill Stietenroth" k5ztyx~xxjuno.com Date: Wed Jul 21, 2010 6:55 pm ((PDT)) There should be very little axial movement of the gears and pulley on the spindle shaft. The big front gear (bull gear) is keyed to the shaft and held in place with a set screw. The 4 groove pulley runs right up close to the bull gear with only enough clearance to let it turn freely on the shaft without dragging on the bull gear. There is a movable pin in the bull gear that pins it to the pulley for direct drive. The small gear behind the pulley is "dog clutched" to the pulley and is held against the pulley by an adjustment collar behind it with a set screw in it. The small gear and the 4 groove pulley have bronze bearing in them so they run freely on the spindle when the back gears are engaged. Look to see if the back adjustment collar is loose or missing on your spindle. Bill ------- Re: Spindle Axial Play Posted by: "David Beierl" dbeierlx~xxattglobal.net Date: Wed Jul 21, 2010 6:59 pm ((PDT)) Go to http://www.atlas-press.com/servicebulletins.htm and look at the bulletin about removing/replacing spindle. It will show you how to adjust and/or what piece you're lacking. Yours, David ------- Re: Spindle Axial Play Posted by: "rjconley2003" rconleyx~xxsocal.rr.com Date: Wed Jul 21, 2010 7:59 pm ((PDT)) Bill: The big bull gear is slipping along the spindle. I found a point where a set screw may be installed but I'll have to excavate the gunk out to see if it's in place and tight. Looks like the collar is in place next to the small gear. I'll get things apart and cleaned up so they will move freely and I can see how things work. I suspected the slop was not right. Thanks Bob [In another message: Thanks to David] ------- [atlas618lathe] Re: 618 Belt Tensioner, carriage,cross slide, compound slide questio Posted by: "n2irz" donrotolox~xxoptimum.net Date: Wed Aug 4, 2010 7:41 am ((PDT)) "T" wrote: > the cross slide and compound slide are also very tight. tight > while turning the handles but with a lot of play otherwise > that I know should not be there. If you have a lot more than 0.010 play, you can buy new nuts for the cross and compound from Clausing for about $20. These are not at all difficult to install. It is also possible to take out the play from the crossfeed nut, as a short-term fix. Write back if you need details, but basically you put a slit in the nut, perpendicular to the screw, drill and tap a small hole for an adjusting screw, and compress that bit of nut to remove the play. Once the lathe is yours, I recommend removing the cross and compound slides, cleaning, relubricating and readjusting the gibs. That'll make a world of difference. ------- Re: 618 Belt Tensioner, carriage,cross slide, compound slide questio Posted by: "David Beierl" dbeierlx~xxattglobal.net Date: Wed Aug 4, 2010 2:07 pm ((PDT)) n2irz wrote: >It is also possible to take out the play from the crossfeed nut and compress that bit of nut to remove the play. < Or cut a slab off the nut end, rotate it against the screw until the play is gone and pin/epoxy it in place. Not my trick -- can't remember whose, unfortunately. He was working with a larger lathe, might be a little fiddly with the 618. Another possibility is to grease the screw and use a Permatex or similar thread-rebuilding kit. For that I think I'd start with a blank nut with maybe some internal grooves or scratches to lock the stuff in place. In fact I think I'll try that myself, as I have one of the kits. Yours, David Beierl -- Providence RI USA Atlas 618 6"/3/index.html" lathe ca. 1941, shiny-new Taig mill. ------- Re: 618 Belt Tensioner, carriage,cross slide, compound slide questio Posted by: "Dean" deanwx~xxbmi.net Date: Wed Aug 4, 2010 5:53 pm ((PDT)) The halfnut often won't engage if the lathe isn't running and the leadscrew not turning. When the leadscrew isn't turning, sometimes when you try to move the halfnut lever, the nuts try to clamp on the top of the leadscrew threads and won't close. That's not a defect. However, if you engage the halfnut when the lathe is running, and the halfnut lever goes down into its locked position but the carriage doesn't move, or skips in a jerking manner, there is some mechanical problem. Worn halfnuts, or worse, worn leadscrew. I would expect a lathe with that problem to show lots of wear in other places, too. It would usually be a sign of long and heavy use, and other components would be involved. Don't worry about the backlash in the cross and compound unless it's a big gob of it. For this lathe, I wouldn't be surprised to find as much as .020" or more in those two screws. It will make no difference to your work as long as you know it's there. Usually, you will be turning those two dials in one direction only when taking cuts, and in that case you don't even have to think about backlash at all. It only comes into play when you move a particular slide to a certain position, then back it out and need to return to the same previous position. In that instance, knowing how much backlash you have is used to re-acquire a previous setting. We can discuss that more, if you like. Maybe start a new subject for it. Dean ------- Opposing Screw Nuts [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: "c_h_a_r_t_n_y" mgibsonx~xxstny.rr.com Date: Sun Aug 22, 2010 12:10 pm ((PDT)) New thread so this is in reply to someone: This is not for everyone, but some might try, if you are good at soldering. 6-18 Atlas (old) I soldered two used nuts together with modest opposition to form a snug nut assembly with near zero slack. 1. I chucked each nut in a 4-jaw and used the spare screw to see that the nut thread was chucked true to the lathe axis. I used the spare screw pointed at the tailstock center and moved it up/down and side to side to see that they were equal. I had to shim one of the nuts to get that. I faced one end of each nut that were going to mate. On the second nut, I screwed the screw into the one in the chuck and ran the mate up to see that they mated with the flats on the same side. I faced a tick off and repeated so the mated near equal. 2. I turned the round pin off the secondary nut and some off the square top. 3. I oiled the threads and fluxed and tinned the mating faces. I used a handle to hold in a vice and torch to heat evenly until solder melted then used a cotton glove to wipe it to tinned only surface. The handles are #10-24 long screws. 4. With a handle in each nut, I put them on the spare lead screw with that in a vice and ran the nuts together. I heated until the solder melted and adjusted the handles to get a snug fit. I planned that, when it cooled, if it was too tight or too loose; I could reheat and adjust slightly with the handles. I got it right the first time. 5. When cool, I put the combined nut in a cup of ammonia and heated it in a microwave oven till it fizzed. Then removed the nut as the particles of contamination were either on the bottom or floating. Rinsed, dried and oiled. Of course Murphy's law has one catch, so listen carefully if you do this. When the nut is on the screw it is fine. When you try to start it in the nut, it goes easy until it hits the second nut and binds. You have to push all the slack out of the thread so it engages the second nut as the threads are opposing. Once started it is fine. In use the primary nut is in the normal position, and the secondary is to the rear. At first glance you might think solder is not strong enough. But, the forces are always in compression at the joint. When you go forward the forces are on the primary nut and the secondary is free of thrust. When you go backward, the secondary carries the load, pushing against the primary. Since this nut is double length, it is more important than normal that the screw be parallel to the ways. I first saw opposition nuts at Greaves Cincinnati, a company long gone, but in high quality machines; they used this with one secured nut and the other with fine threads on the OD. That one was adjusted to get just the right tension for minimum slack. It could be re-adjusted as needed in the life of the machine. chart ------- Re: opposing xslide nuts [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: "L. Garlinghouse" lhghousex~xxsuddenlink.net Date: Sun Aug 22, 2010 6:25 pm ((PDT)) Increasing the bearing surface by 2 nuts would double the bearing area, but not the wear. It would also [theoretically, anyway] cut the bearing load or stress in half and thus the wear in terms of wear per cycle ... except someone will point out that in all probability only a few threads somewhere are taking the load, so maybe as far as wear/cycle goes it doesn't make any difference. In any event I can't see how it will make anything any worse; and most likely there would be an actual decrease in the loading and thus wear/cycle. The adjusted double-nut concept is most interesting. Thanks. Late, L.H. Garlinghouse Arkansas USA ------- Re: opposing xslide nuts Posted by: "c_h_a_r_t_n_y" mgibsonx~xxstny.rr.com Date: Sun Aug 22, 2010 6:37 pm ((PDT)) Re to Garling "Increasing the bearing surface by 2 nuts would double the bearing area" Actually it is not. One nut carries the load at any time. Thus it reduces the cycles on each nut. And in my case, used nuts work better than a new one. And I had 2 used nuts and a spare shaft. Most people would not have that. 40 years of collecting for me. Happy turning. chart ------- Re: opposing xslide nuts Posted by: "Chuck Rice" Chuckx~xxWildRice.com Date: Mon Aug 23, 2010 6:42 pm ((PDT)) On Aug 22, 2010, at 8:25 PM, L. Garlinghouse wrote: > The adjusted double-nut concept is most interesting. Thanks. I do not understand how this is different than the anti-backlash nuts that are common on many non-ballscrew machine. If I understand correctly (and I may not), my Sherline mill has these on the leadscrews and you can adjust them as tight as you dare. The problem is that as you adjust the two opposing nuts closer together, one is pushing the threads one direction, and the other is pushing on the other side of the thread. As you get tighter and tighter, the screw is harder and harder to turn and because they are pressing against each other, the pressure causes more and more wear. So you trade off accuracy for wear. So when you are doing easy tolerance work, or lots of rapids, you ease off on the backlash nuts. And when you need high-precision, you tighten them down for the duration of the job. There are a number of designs on the net. Some like the Sherline are just nut against nut. Others use nuts with springs in a number of configurations. One company that makes these spring-anti-backlash nuts is Kirk Motion (no connection to me): http://www.haydonkerk.com/LinearActuatorProducts/LeadSc rewsAndNuts/Nuts/tabid/109/Default.aspx They also have a pretty good PDF article that explains wear and backlash (from their perspective of course): http://www.haydonkerk.com/Products/LeadscrewsAndNuts/tabid/68/Default.aspx The advantage of the spring screws is that they automatically adjust themselves as they wear. And wear is a fact of life when you keep the backlash to less than .001 for an often used machine. That is why the leadscrews are normally hardened steel often with wear reducing coatings, and the nuts are a softer material such as brass or DelrinAF. The cheaper, softer material takes the brunt of the wear. Some people swear by using the DelrinAF plastic for nuts because the AF version of Delrin has extra slickness that prevents wear. Others use something called moglice: http://www.moglice.com/stfscorerepair08.html which I know less about. Chuck Rice Near Houston, Tx ------- Help with disassembling the upper pulley [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: "kellyfamily1127" kelfam1x~xxcomcast.net Date: Thu Sep 23, 2010 2:25 pm ((PDT)) I can't seem to figure out how to take the upper pulley apart to clean it. It is one of the last parts that I need to take apart to finish refurbishment. It is from a 34-36 9" Atlas lathe. Nothing wants to twist or pull off, and it needs to come apart because it is all gummed up. Here is a picture: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/atlas_craftsman/photos/album/1505854851/pi c/1839140149/view?picmode=&mode=tn&order=ordinal&start=1&count=20&dir=asc If anyone could tell me how to take it apart I would greatly appreciate it. Thanks. Sam ------- Re: Help with disassembling the upper pulley Posted by: "James Irwin" jirwin1x~xxaustin.rr.com Date: Thu Sep 23, 2010 2:52 pm ((PDT)) The items on each end are grease caps. They unscrew. The shaft has a hole down its axis for grease to flow to the bearing blocks. Pulleys have set screws. Old stuff like this gets pretty tightly bound up by old dried grease/dirt cement. A little heat, solvent and penetrating oils are your friends, thoą pretty slow to work. Be patient. They went together, they will come apart! Curb the urge to take a hammer to any part of this! Jim I ------- Re: Help with disassembling the upper pulley Posted by: "c_h_a_r_t_n_y" mgibsonx~xxstny.rr.com Date: Thu Sep 23, 2010 4:11 pm ((PDT)) Re to James: Might I add one more. Once in a while you find a double set screw. Usually a short one right on top of another. Worth a check when you remove one to see that the hole is empty. (except for the end nut on the spindle with the lead pellet) Happy dis-assembly chart ------- Re: Help with disassembling the upper pulley Posted by: "harpanet13" harpanet1x~xxcomcast.net Date: Thu Sep 23, 2010 4:27 pm ((PDT)) I just today took apart the same assembly on my 1934 10" and everything was immobile even after removing all set screws. Generous amounts of WD-40 and gentle working things back and forth got things moving. At each spot where the setscrews contacted the shaft there was a fairly nasty burr that I filed off with a fine file as soon as I could reach them. After this it eventually came apart but took a while. Wayne ------- Re: Help with disassembling the upper pulley Posted by: "James Irwin" jirwin1x~xxaustin.rr.com Date: Thu Sep 23, 2010 4:50 pm ((PDT)) These burrs from cup point set screws are something we just have to get used to, Iąm afraid. Some Iąve seen are pretty nasty! And they get made while the pulley is in place, so itąs pretty well captured! Not the best design strategy! Jim ------- Re: Help with disassembling the upper pulley Posted by: "Bill Stietenroth" k5ztyx~xxjuno.com Date: Thu Sep 23, 2010 6:36 pm ((PDT)) Jim: You don't have to get used to set screw burrs. A good machine tool repairman would only run into this problem one time per machine. Undercuts and flats machined on set screw areas fix that problem permanently. Don't put it back together until you fix it. Bill ------- Re: Help with disassembling the upper pulley Posted by: "jerdalx~xxsbcglobal.net" jerdalx~xxsbcglobal.net Date: Thu Sep 23, 2010 6:36 pm ((PDT)) The designer is supposed to use a reduced diameter, or a flat, at the location the set screws hit. Which to use depends on how well the axial and rotational position of the item in question is known. JT ------- Re: Help with disassembling the upper pulley Posted by: "Richard Marchi" rfmarchix~xxaol.com Date: Fri Sep 24, 2010 6:34 pm ((PDT)) I agree with Bill; we don't have to "just put up" with set screw burrs. As he says, the first time you find a burr, take a file to the location and cut a small flat. Another option is to use a nylon tipped set screw, or put a piece of nylon, lead or copper in the set screw hole ahead of the set screw, itself. No need to have that problem more than once! Dick ------- Re: Help with disassembling the upper pulley Posted by: "kellyfamily1127" kelfam1x~xxcomcast.net Date: Sat Sep 25, 2010 4:57 pm ((PDT)) Thank you all for the help. I got it disassembled with a lot of penetrating oil. What sort of grease should I use for the ball bearings? The stuff that was on there was really thick and only came off after soaking it in soapy water. I have some super lube synthetic grease that is PTFE based. Would that work? Or do I need something different? Sam ------- Re: Help with disassembling the upper pulley Posted by: "Donald Gideon" dgideonaplx~xxyahoo.com Date: Sat Sep 25, 2010 6:53 pm ((PDT)) Lots of oil, no grease. That's what the oilers are for. ------- Re: Tool for slotted nuts? [atlas618lathe] Posted by: "anthrhodesx~xxaol.com" Date: Thu Sep 30, 2010 6:57 am ((PDT)) > What tool do you guys use on those slotted nuts that secure > the two small handles on the carriage? I cut off a piece of round steel the same OD as the larger nut and long enough to make different drivers on each end. I ground the ends to make a screwdriver, then ground a slot in the middle to clear the end of the feed screw. For the smaller nut I also ground the sides of the screw driver to make it narrower by the correct amount. In the mid point of the length of the double screwdriver, I drilled a cross hole to allow a cross piece for leverage. When grinding the thickness of the blade on each end they should properly fill the slots in the nuts so that they don't wedge out. The blades should also be hollow ground for the same reason. You could also modify regular screw drivers in the same way but you do need two drivers due to the different sizes of nuts. Whatever you do, the tools become dedicated drivers. Anthony Berkeley, Calif. ------- Tool for slotted nuts? Posted by: "Rob Chapman" chapman49682x~xxyahoo.com Date: Fri Oct 1, 2010 1:38 pm ((PDT)) Snap ring pliers also work, if used judiciously. ------- Tailstock ram locking screw problem - 101.28940 12 x 36 [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: "Bill Knight" bill431nitex~xxyahoo.com Date: Wed Nov 3, 2010 4:22 pm ((PDT)) I'm a new member that picked up a Craftsman 12 x 36 that's been sitting around for the better part of the last 25 years. It's in pretty fair shape as far as wear goes, but it's very dirty and stiff. I'm not going through a complete rebuild at this point, just giving it a good cleaning and checking it out. I need some specs for a locking screw. It's the screw under the upper front of the tailstock that engages with the groove in the tailstock ram and keeps it from spinning as you turn the handle to run the ram out. Ith ink it also keeps you from pushing the ram all the way out. From the Sears Parts List, Tailstock and Bed Section It's no. 49 on diagram - Screw with nut Part Number: 9-165A ($32.99 is their price). Mine is stuck, the slot for the screwdriver tip is wallowed out, and the threads where you lock the nut are kinda messed up as well. After Ire moved the locknut, it will turn about a 1/16 of a turn back and forth, then it gets really tight, so it's not frozen. I'm worried that someone has cranked really hard on the ram and bent the tip of the screw on the top side where it protrudes up into the groove. Any ideas? I figure I'll get hold of it wtih my visegrips and try, wiggle it back and forth, slowly working it out, but I thought I should ask in case someone knows a trick. Thanks, Bill ------- Re: Tailstock ram locking screw problem - 101.28940 12 x 36 Posted by: "Jon Elson" elsonx~xxpico-systems.com Date: Wed Nov 3, 2010 7:48 pm ((PDT)) I think you CAN take the ram all the way out. This screw may have been made in such a way that it can't be turned when the ram is in. When the screw threads on the handwheel run out, you will have to pull the ram the rest of the way out. Jon ------- Re: Tailstock ram locking screw problem - 101.28940 12 x 36 Posted by: "Bill N" bill431nitex~xxyahoo.com Date: Wed Nov 3, 2010 9:36 pm ((PDT)) Thanks Jon. I had initially assumed that the groove in the bottom of the ram stopped short of the back end so it wouldn't fall out, but then after reading your message, I realized if the groove went all the way through, that after unscrewing the handwheel end all the way, I COULD pull the ram out over the screw. Sure enough it worked. Even though the tip of the screw is ground to have two flat sides, it's still wider than the width of the groove, so you can NOT unscrew it until you have taken the ram out. The locknut on the screw is only there to lock it in place so the flats on the screw tip stay aligned with the groove to minimize wear. Since the top of my screw is messed up, I'll pick up an ordinary one with the same threads for 10 or 15 cents, spend a few minutes dressing it up with my file and I'll have SAVED about $32. At this rate I'll have this lathe paying for itself in no time ...... RIGHT? ------- Re: Tailstock ram locking screw problem - 101.28940 12 x 36 Posted by: "Jon Elson" elsonx~xxpico-systems.com Date: Wed Nov 3, 2010 10:26 pm ((PDT)) I'm not sure that Atlas made the part this way, so I'm guessing that maybe they went up a thread size after damaging the threads in the casting, and then flatting the screw was a good idea. $32 for this screw is pretty outrageous. I'll bet they don't sell a lot of them as almost anybody would just make it themselves. Jon ------- Re: Tailstock ram locking screw problem - 101.28940 12 x 36 Posted by: "Scott Henion" shenionx~xxshdesigns.org Date: Wed Nov 3, 2010 9:48 pm ((PDT)) Mine is a real long Allen head screw. Seems to work fine (I did not make it.) I'll probably make it shorter someday as it does look funny and I bet it will get in the way someday. As for paying for itself, mine is still costing me ;) Not in parts but in tooling. Seems I always want something to add. After over a year, I don't have anything on my wish list. It has been saving me money otherwise as I can make things faster than driving all around town looking for them or ordering online. ------- Re: Tailstock ram locking screw problem - 101.28940 12 x 36 Posted by: "David Beierl" dbeierlx~xxattglobal.net Date: Thu Nov 4, 2010 1:19 am ((PDT)) >I'm not sure that Atlas made the part this way, so I'm guessing that >maybe they went up a thread size after damaging the threads in the I'll have to check, but my recollection is that my 618 is made this way. It makes sense to me, as it gives a large bearing surface on the ram compared to a round pin. Yours, David Beierl -- Providence RI USA Atlas 618 6"/3/index.html" lathe ca. 1941, shiny-new Taig mill. ------- Re: Tailstock ram locking screw problem - 101.28940 12 x 36 Posted by: "Russ Kepler" russx~xxkepler-eng.com Date: Thu Nov 4, 2010 5:38 am ((PDT)) > I'll pick up an ordinary one with the same threads for 10 or 15 cents, spend a few minutes dressing it up with my file and I'll have SAVED about $32. At this rate I'll have this lathe paying for itself in no time ...... RIGHT? < You're running the calculation the wrong way -- the way I call it, the cost of the lathe is sunk into the very first project and all subsequent projects are profit. I've got a pair of $1000 bolts holding down a toilet, myself. ------- Re: Tailstock ram locking screw problem - 101.28940 12 x 36 Posted by: "Glenn N" sleykinx~xxcharter.net Date: Thu Nov 4, 2010 9:25 am ((PDT)) All the ram key screws I have seen have the flats on them. This gives more surface area for the keyway to ride on and helps to keep it from getting buggered up on a heavy drilling job. When the ram gets difficult to move in and out, it is usually because the keyway has been hammered by the screw and has a ridge built up along its edges. If you drawfile the top edges of the slot the ram will fit properly again and slide in the bore very nicely. Removing the small amount of metal does not change the ram position in the bore as it is a small tangential section of a circle. If the ram is tight in the bore, it is hard on the threads and a PITA to work with :) Glenn ------- Craftsman Atlas cross slide [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: "ruff359" ruff359x~xxyahoo.com Date: Fri Nov 5, 2010 11:17 pm ((PDT)) Hello. Can anyone tell me how much if any play there should be in the cross slide on my Atlas Craftsman 6" lathe? I can actually move it fore and aft about 1/8 inch. That is perpendicular to the bed. I guess this isn't good. Do I need to replace the nut or is there an adjustment to make. Thanks, Bob ------- Re: Craftsman Atlas cross slide Posted by: "jonnycalc" jeldredcx~xxcomcast.net Date: Sat Nov 6, 2010 6:32 am ((PDT)) 1/8" does seem like a lot, but 1/16" I think would be pretty typical. It is just a matter of backlash between the screw thread and the brass nut, and it is "probably" due to an excessively-worn brass nut. I don't have a solution to the backlash effect -- wish I did. ------- Re: Craftsman Atlas cross slide Posted by: "anthrhodesx~xxaol.com" Date: Sat Nov 6, 2010 9:46 am ((PDT)) Bob: Axial play can come from two sources, wear between the feed screw and nut, and looseness in the thrust bearings. Always best to check the thrust bearings first. Grab the feed crank and try to move it in and out. If there is play there you can probably figure out how to reduce it to a minimum. Supposing that that doesn't completely solve the problem, you can have wear in the screw, wear in the nut, or more likely, some wear in each. Run the cross slide through its complete range and check the play when it's close to the front, close to the rear, and a couple of intermediate positions. There's a fair likelihood you'll have differing amounts of wear at different positions. That's because most of the time you're operating in a narrow range of diameters during your cutting, therefore more wear in the screw happens in that range. Even so, if after you've reduced the axial play in the thrust bearings you still have significant play at the most forward and most rearward positions of the cross slide, you probably also have wear in the nut. The degree of play in these most forward and rearward positions will be a clue as to whether the nut is becoming critical. Next, crank the cross slide towards the rear until it stops moving, then slide it off the carriage. Look at the feed screw to see the variation of form of the screw threads. If there was more play towards the center of travel the threads will probably look more pointed in the middle of the screw, whereas the ends will have a wider flat at the tops of the threads. The difference between these two conditions and the difference in end play between these positions is an indicator of how much wear there is in the screw. While you have the cross slide off you can also visually inspect the nut to check for the same condition of the threads. When you have made the appropriate adjustments and inspections, you'll have a better idea of where you stand. If you'd like further help with the assessments, post photos and tell us what you found during these tests. You will probably have some wear in the nut, it's being used at all positions of feed. You will probably have differing degrees of wear in the screw for the reasons I mentioned earlier. Only you will be able to decide how much is acceptable to you and how much you're willing to spend on corrective measures. If you decide you need replacement of any of either the screw or nut or both, it's probable that somebody in the group can refer you to sources. I don't know off hand but it's likely that Clausing will have replacements for the nut at a bearable price. The screw may be more of a problem. Again, after the tests tell us where you stand and post any request for assistance. Hope this helps. Anthony Berkeley, Calif. ------- Re: Craftsman Atlas Cross Slide Posted by: "John Bump" johnbumpx~xxgmail.com Date: Sat Nov 6, 2010 10:17 am ((PDT)) I'll start off by saying that on a well-adjusted 618 there should be no perceptible play in the cross-slide-to-bed. However, when you add "do I replace the nut" that makes me think you're talking about play in the cross-slide when the leadscrew is engaged. There's a fair amount of play in that. You can minimize it to some extent by replacing the nut, replacing the screw, and more inexpensively, by messing about with the thrust bearing on the leadscrew, at the headstock. But you don't need to. The backlash in a leadscrew is always large, so you plan your work so that you take up the backlash in the cut: you only cut towards the headstock (or away from it) rather than doing reverses. If you only cut in one direction, it will be repeatable, so the play doesn't matter. Replace the half-nuts, or the leadscrew, if the carriage is slipping while the nuts are engaged. (Take it apart first to make sure they're actually worn: cleaning them out with a toothbrush and making sure there isn't swarf in the closing mechanism will often make them act much better.) I wouldn't advise you to replace stuff for backlash because I think you'll be disappointed with a bunch of new parts that will still have backlash. ------- Re: Craftsman Atlas Cross Slide Posted by: "robeRT SIMONE" ruff359x~xxyahoo.com Date: Sun Nov 7, 2010 7:34 am ((PST)) Hi John: Thanks for the reply. When I mentioned the cross slide, I was talking about the part with the dial and crank that feeds in and out to make a cut, not the carriage which is ok and has no play. The breakdown shows a machined brass or bronze piece or nut that runs on the screw that I'm thinking may be worn beyond correct use. Maybe I used the wrong terminology. Bob ------- TH-42 restoration [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: "db45acp" db45acpx~xxyahoo.com Date: Mon Nov 8, 2010 9:20 pm ((PST)) Greetings everyone. I'm about to begin a complete teardown and restoration of a TH42. I have not seen any posts here that mention how to go about removing the Atlas badges or namepates on the machine. Specifically the ones on the top and end gear guards. How can I best remove the rivets without scuffing up the emblems? Suggestions, please. Dan ------- Re: TH-42 restoration Posted by: "Bill Stietenroth" k5ztyx~xxjuno.com Date: Tue Nov 9, 2010 4:44 am ((PST)) Those little rivets are really drive screws. They are driven into the holes which usually go all the way through the casting. You can use a pin punch and drive them out from the back. Save them and use them again. Bill ------- oil cups [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: "paul.pross" blackcloud212x~xxmsn.com Date: Tue Dec 7, 2010 9:15 am ((PST)) Has anyone ever heard of or attempted to drill holes in an Atlas carriage and install oil cups to lube the ways? ------- Re: oil cups Posted by: "jerdalx~xxsbcglobal.net" Date: Tue Dec 7, 2010 10:26 pm ((PST)) I have done that on a Logan, not on an Atlas. JT ------- Re: oil cups Posted by: "Jon Elson" elsonx~xxpico-systems.com Date: Tue Dec 7, 2010 9:38 am ((PST)) Unless you also scrape or grind oil grooves in the mating surface, a simple hole will not deliver much oil to the ways. Most lathes with an oil distribution system, like my 15" Sheldon, have a series of angled grooves on the bottom of the carriage to spread the oil widely along the bed-carriage surface. Jon ------- Re: oil cups Posted by: "jerdalx~xxsbcglobal.net" Date: Tue Dec 7, 2010 10:27 pm ((PST)) Actually, it worked VERY well, with only minimal 'spreading grooves". Highly recommended. JT ------- Re: oil cups Posted by: "wheezer" wheezer606x~xxverizon.net Date: Tue Dec 7, 2010 4:20 pm ((PST)) Yes. However, the cups get in the way, so I would recommend using a flush spring ball gits type oiler with a needle tip on a small squeezeee oil bottle. lance ------- Re: oil cups Posted by: "Scott Henion" shenionx~xxshdesigns.org Date: Tue Dec 7, 2010 4:52 pm ((PST)) I prefer the oil wipers that the lathe comes with. No big deal to oil them. Scott G. Henion http://shdesigns.org/Craftsman12x36 ------- Re: oil cups Posted by: "L. Garlinghouse" lhghousex~xxsuddenlink.net Date: Wed Dec 8, 2010 10:55 am ((PST)) Yes. Just did it in the last 60 or so days. I used my homade gits type ball oilers [info available in the archives]. [NOTE TO FILE: His gits oiler making info can be found here in the file "Projects in Metal" starting Sep 9, 2010.] I did not put in any oil dispersion grooves. I use a hand held pump type oiler and after the first squirt I can see oil coming out the edges of the carriage. I thought of it, and figured I could go back and do it if I needed to. After what looked to me like success, I've decided I don't need to. There are some potential minor problems as the surface on top of the carriage is not flat, so I milled a 1/2" spot face first and then center drilled before actual drilling. Also, even with the apron removed, you have to do some careful blocking to get the carriage level before doing the above. Nothing really picky, but if overlooked, could get bothersome. Go ahead and do it. Later, L.H. Garlinghouse Arkansas USA ------- Re: Craftsman 101-21400 [atlas618lathe] Posted by: "John Bump" johnbumpx~xxgmail.com Date: Tue Dec 14, 2010 8:48 am ((PST)) > I have a 21400 that is in need of a good cleaning. I am thinking about taking it apart and repainting it also. Any suggestion on what to watch out for so I do not mess it up more than what it is now? < One thing I'll say is if you have one of the machines with Timkin bearings, resist the urge to take apart the headstock just to clean it up. It's tricky and provides a lot of opportunities to injure the spindle and bearings, so if you don't *have* to take it apart, leave it alone. This is facilitated by getting a Fenner power-twist or similar belt that can be taken apart, threaded around the spindle, and then closed again. Other than that, everything else is a good candidate for running through an ultrasonic cleaner, and it's particularly helpful to take apart the half-nut assembly in the carriage and clean out all the junk that seems to accumulate in there, because it'll prevent the half-nuts closing fully and lead to carriage slipping during thread-cutting. ------- Re: Level Lathe [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: "Scott Henion" shenionx~xxshdesigns.org Date: Tue Dec 21, 2010 6:45 pm ((PST)) On 12/21/2010, Warren D. wrote: > I did check the lathe for level. I only had the torpedo level and found it was out quite a bit. I looked for a precision level but they start at $276. Starret has a #98 for $75 but it isn't precision. I doubt the ways are warped but do need to check it out. Right now I don't know anyone who has a precision level so I will have to over come this as I don't want to spend $276 for one time use. Probably will get real serious into all of the suggestions after Christmas. Thanks a lot! < I bought a cheap Chinese 8" aluminum level. One of the bubbles was empty when I got it, another a week later. Did not matter as I never used the bubbles in it. I used another level to get the lathe near level. The level had a laser pointer. I set it on the headstock end and pointed it to the far wall of the garage. I marked it on the wall. Then put the laser level on the tailstock end and tried to position it on the same front/back points. I adjusted my bench until the laser dot was in the exact same place. As the dots were within 0.025" and the point was 22 feet away, I remember calculating that put the bed ends somewhere within 0.0012" of parallel. Later I redid it so there was no visible difference. Was the lathe level? No idea and don't care but it is parallel. Made a world of difference on my test pieces. What impressed me most was clamping one side down and stick a screwdriver under the other end so you can find/fit shims; rest your hand on the lathe and the dot moved down about 1/2 inch. The bed twists real easily. I check mine from time to time with the laser level. The dot height on the wall changes with temp but the two ends always shine on the same point. Scott G. Henion Craftsman 12x36 lathe: http://shdesigns.org/Craftsman12x36 ------- Re: Level Lathe Posted by: "c_h_a_r_t_n_y" mgibsonx~xxstny.rr.com Date: Wed Dec 22, 2010 5:00 am ((PST)) Few points on levels. You asked about the quality or usability of your level for lathe leveling. To check the quality of your level you might check this. The bottom should be ground and be smooth and flat. If not sure, you might blue it and slide it on a surface plate and look for high spots, or just use a sharpie and mark it. This is not high tec. To check the care of manufacture, put it on any surface you can make level with a shim or wedge. At room temp the bubble should just barely touch the primary graduation scribes. Any gap or overlap would require a judgement call on when it is on target. The scribes should be thin and sharp. The temperature is included as the fluid is colored or clear alcohol, same as in a thermometer. It expands faster than glass. Hotter makes the bubble smaller, but it is not a major move. Next is sensitivity. This is not quality, but what is required for its intended use. A carpenter's level is low sensitivity, and a precision machinist level is high sensitivity. This can be described scientifically as degrees-minutes-seconds per 2mm of movement, or 0.2mm as they see fit. Since 1 degree is .210" per foot that is not very useful for the user, just the scientist. They may use 1:1,000 but that is not much better. I prefer the smallest move in angle that can be repeatedly detected. Like .001" per foot. As to what is sensitive and what is not for every day users, we might consider some mile markers. My Stanley Handyman 2 foot which is obviously made with care as it is milled on all sides and has double bubbles in each opening: I can resolve 0.015" per foot. Still it is a high sensitive construction level and a carpenter's level would be less but I do not have one. My Starrett No. 12 protractor on a foot scale can resolve 0.0015. That is the thinnest feeler gauge I have but I have to use a magnifier to see that as it is quite old and the color behind the glass is gone. (Old is NOT BAD.) Now for use. Since my 618 is 4" between feet, and .001" is the smallest move I can shim, then 0.003" per foot is the smallest move I have. So my old protractor head is more than adequate. And yes, you can play games within a tweak using bolt tension, and I did just that. I used the one foot scale in my protractor head for checking sensitivity, but use only the head itself on the lathe ways. And one sidebar. The usual way to create sensitivity in a vial is the radius of the curve. Small radius is low sensitivity and large is high sensitivity. And someone might note there are low cost pocket levels that can be used upside down. They use a vial that is larger in the center than the ends. And as for me, no added cost, just use what I got. And for use, remove the chuck and tailstock. Check near the head and near the tail where the ways are not worn, and maximum resolution. You are comparing "out of level" to "out of level". So you make the tailstock match the head stock end. It is a comparison so level resolution is what you need. Magnifying the level helps in doing a comparison. chart ------- NOTE TO FILE: In all my many years of reading in machining books and in specialty magazines and in various metalworking internet groups, the subject of leveling a lathe has been covered often with many how-to variations. But this explanation by chart of what constitutes level precision, and practical use, is unique and fascinating. Thank you Sir. ------- Re: Level Lathe Posted by: "jerdalx~xxsbcglobal.net" Date: Wed Dec 22, 2010 5:34 am ((PST)) Some other points about levels..... The 98, IIRC, is 0.005" per foot sensitivity. Actually rather sensitive, 10x to 30x the sensitivity of a carpenter's level. AND QUITE ADEQUATE FOR LATHE LEVELING. First, a more sensitive level will drive you crazy tryng to get it even on-scale, let alone leveled. The bubble will spend most of the time off to one end, meaning you don't get a "level" you get a machine that merely tells you "nope, you ain't level yet, you're off to the left (or right)" ..... not very useful, since you have no clue if you are "nearly there", or "a mile off". ON TOP OF THAT......... the SPEC for such levels states that the center area must be relieved slightly, meaning that if the level does not set on the two ends, you have no idea what the level condition is. The relief area has no spec on concavity, radius, etc, it is just a "non-contact area" and irrelevant. If you set the level on that, it will not be repeatable. Naturally, that means that the usual lathe bed must be bridged by a longer parallel piece in order to use the level. Some levels may not be made that way, but Starrett are, for instance. Lufkin actually cut away the middle, so that only a pad at each end was usable. My policy is to use a 98, get it as level as can be seen on the bubble, which is 2-3 x better than the nominal sensitivity, and then shift to the "two collars" method, where you make an actual cut over a piece of large diameter stock having an enlarged area near the chuck and out at the end. perhaps 8" to a foot long, depending. It is held IN THE CHUCK, NO TAILSTOCK USED. Take a light cut over both, preferably power fed, measure the enlarged areas. If equal, you are done. If not, adjust a tad and repeat until it cuts right. This is a practical test, and directly tells you is you are at your goal condition, which is "no taper" in the cut. No need to spend a lot on super-precision levels. If you MUST have one, you can get an import for more in the area of $70 to $100, and many of those are pretty darn good. JT ------- Re: Level Lathe Posted by: "jo barden" jobarden422x~xxmsn.com Date: Wed Dec 22, 2010 5:48 am ((PST)) Here is how I level my lathe, it is not perfect but it works for me. I have a 3" diameter round caravan level that you can get from caravan/ camping supplies, the level has concentric circles so you can see if you are a bit out "North/South" or "East/West" I use this level at Headstock end, Middle and Tailstock. If I can get them all the same I am happy, even better if they are all in centre but not often have I had that The level costs a couple of pounds but large size is very useful; it is only a plastic thing. Oh, make sure you clean ways and level base at every point; a speck of cast iron dust at one point is not nice, I know! Jon G6UWK ------- Re: Level Lathe Posted by: "oldstudentmsgt" wmrmeyersx~xxsbcglobal.net Date: Wed Dec 22, 2010 9:07 am ((PST)) Warren, this might help: http://www.cdcotools.com/ and search for "level." They have an 8" for $49, and a 12" for $68, both with graduate vials. I'm not much of a machinist (you'd need a micrometer to measure how good I am at it) but I've been happy with the few items I've bought from them, and I see them recommended frequently on the various yahoo groups I frequent. Bill in OKC ------- Re: Level Lathe Posted by: "c_h_a_r_t_n_y" mgibsonx~xxstny.rr.com Date: Wed Dec 22, 2010 10:02 am ((PST)) I would bet you could do a good job with single digit $. http://cgi.ebay.com/STARRETT-NO-4-12-INCH-MACHINIST-COMBIN ATION-SQUARE-/230565660561?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item35aec8c791 I have one but my protractor head is easier to use. Especially comparing one out of level to one out of level in the bed. chart ------- Re: Level Lathe Posted by: "Jon Elson" elsonx~xxpico-systems.com Date: Wed Dec 22, 2010 7:09 pm ((PST)) Really, you need a sensitive level for this. Even a few thousandths of an inch error from one end of the bed to the other will cause odd tapers and barrel effects on longer parts. I was AMAZED at the difference when I finally got a decent precision level. The first one I got was a Soviet-made one that worked out to about .0015" per foot. You definitely could tell if you slipped a hair under one end. It really fixed up some taper problems I was having on the lathe. Jon ------- Re: Level Lathe Posted by: "c_h_a_r_t_n_y" mgibsonx~xxstny.rr.com Date: Wed Dec 22, 2010 7:32 pm ((PST)) Re to Jon: "Really, you need a sensitive level for this." My Old Starrett #12 protractor head level will resolve 0.0015" per foot. I used the 12 inch scale on a surface plate and can repeat sensing a feeler gauge of that measure. Of course I use a magnifier and flashlight to do that. I an 71 and my vision is not great. My 6-18 is 4" across the feet. The smallest shim I have is 0.001 so that is .003 per foot for adjustment. So with the Starrett I can resolve twice what I can shim. Of course I fine tuned a tweek with bolt tension to get the best I can get. I used the 12" scale only to check resolution. I remove it and use the ground surface of the protractor across the ways. chart ------- Re: Level Lathe Posted by: "jerdalx~xxsbcglobal.net" Date: Wed Dec 22, 2010 10:14 pm ((PST)) You want to turn a part with no taper. So, you use a lesser level to get close, and then the two collars method to get a DIRECT measurement of what you need to know. It works extremely well, and you can use a level like a 98, which is pretty sensitive (0.005" per foot) but not so sensitive as to be stupidly hard to use in the real world. Did I mention that you get a DIRECT measurement of the work taper? No "inferred" measurements. Nothing wrong with a sensitive level. if you think you will have OTHER uses for it, once you have the lathe level, then it is worth it. But considering the concave bottom spec, and difficulty of use, it may make more sense to go a different way if lathe leveling is all you need it for. JT ------- Re: Level Lathe Posted by: "David Beierl" dbeierlx~xxattglobal.net Date: Thu Dec 23, 2010 3:09 pm ((PST)) At 10:23 AM 12/23/2010, Steve wrote: >Nothing against them, but why buy a CDCO level for that price when you can get a used Starrett for the same money. I bought my 12" for $10 and had the vial replaced by Starrett for about $40. < For what it's worth, Atlas specify that a .003 shim placed under one end of the lathe should move the bubble about 1/8". One presumes they're talking lengthwise, not crosswise. For a 54" bed that would correspond to half a thou in nine inches, or .00067 per foot. That's about ten times as sensitive as a Starret 98. I'm not pushing any particular sensitivity, just quoting what Atlas says in their leveling instructions -- you can read it yourself. For what it's worth, back when I had a level similar to the CDCO one, but uglier, I didn't experience any unusual difficulty leveling my 618 with it. Used the one from a combination square to get it in the ball park. Yours, and Merry Christmas, David David Beierl -- Providence RI USA Atlas 618 6"/3/index.html" lathe ca. 1941, shiny-new Taig mill. ------- Re: Level Lathe Posted by: "keith altavilla" keithaltavillax~xxyahoo.com Date: Thu Dec 23, 2010 4:19 pm ((PST)) Yup, I concur. My 12" starrett I found on ebay for just under $100 delivered. There are deals out there if you are not in a hurry and keep an eye on things. Keith ------- Re: Bed Twist #2 [atlas_craftsman] [prior subject was Re: Level Lathe] Posted by: "c_h_a_r_t_n_y" mgibsonx~xxstny.rr.com Date: Wed Dec 22, 2010 7:04 am ((PST)) Two common ways to test for bed twist. One noted by others involves taking small turns on a shaft. OK if you only have a mike. If you have a dial indicator then this is easier. Checking head taper: from bed twist. Firmly chuck a clean rod in a 3 jaw chuck. Be sure the chuck is tight on the spindle. With a 3/4" rod, and a dial indicator at center height, in the carriage, I rotate the chuck and read the high and low readings and average. Repeat. I read near the chuck, average, then move the carriage with a piece of paper between the indicator and the shaft to get to the one foot out location. Of course it is obvious the shaft needs to be the same diameter on each location, and clean. In each reading case, I would push and pull gently on the shaft to see that it springs and is not loose in the bearings or chuck. Compare the averages at the chuck and one foot out and that tells you the bed twist error in thousands per foot. I would not want to use smaller than a 3/4" shaft due to indicator deflection of the shaft. Of course you can use a shorter shaft distance out if it meets your needs. Both methods taught in machine shop way back in the '50's. Nothing has changed in mechanics. chart ------- babbitt bearing adjustment [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: "Tazwell" tazwellbramlettex~xxyahoo.com Date: Wed Dec 22, 2010 8:48 am ((PST)) My Atlas 10-F has noticeable lateral spindle play, but none in the vertical or longitudinal directions. At the moment I have only the existing shims (.010 in front and .005 in rear) for the front bearing to play with. Removing the front shim and replacing it with the rear shim eliminates the play, but when I tighten the babbitt bolts the spindle won't turn. The manual just says there should be a noticable "drag." Is there a recommended torque setting for the bolts? The manual also says to loosen the bolts 1/8 to 1/4 turn when turning wood. Is the proper setting just a matter of experience and feel? If not tight, will te bolts loosen, or should "locktight" be used? Taz ------- Re: babbitt bearing adjustment Posted by: "c_h_a_r_t_n_y" mgibsonx~xxstny.rr.com Date: Wed Dec 22, 2010 1:08 pm ((PST)) Re to Taz: You can make your own shims. I use a feeler gage set and cut them myself with tin snips. Not for bearing caps as I do not have that. I use them leveling my lathe on the table and also for de-stressing my lathe legs on the floor. Feeler gages are cheap and give a variety of thicknesses with size marked. chart ------- Re: babbitt bearing adjustment Posted by: "Rexarino" rexarinox~xxgmail.com Date: Wed Dec 22, 2010 2:18 pm ((PST)) Unfortunately, lateral play isn't usually corrected by tightening the bearing cap, unless there is also excessive vertical play. Removing shims moves the cap down, but doesn't adequately tighten the lateral clearances. You probably have two or three choices that come to mind. You can pour new babbitt bearings, or you can replace the headstock with one that has less play. Further musings bring these thoughts: a very clever (desperate?) mechanic might try upsetting the worn area of the bearing surface to move it closer to the shaft by some clever means. The chances are high that the bearing cap would be broken. In the dark ages of auto repair, worn valve guides were given limited additional life by forcing a device resembling a thread roller through them, which deformed inward and "raised" the surrounding metal. A reamer than brought the guide back to the correct size. This approach hardly seems like a good idea for the repair of a precision tool. If you try something like this, it should be undertaken as a last resort, only because there is no other solution (which is usually not the case with babbitt bearings, since they can be melted out, cleaned up and re-poured). Old time mechanics would sometimes "temporarily" fix an automobile babbitt bearing by installing shims behind the bearing, but those were removable bearing inserts, unlike the lathe that has poured-in-place-adhered-to-the- casting babbitt. I think an attempt to move the babbitt in the bearing cap would very likely end in breakage of the bearing cap, and almost certainly not give you the precision you are trying to achieve. Rex ------- Re: babbitt bearing adjustment Posted by: "Doc" n8as1x~xxaol.com Date: Wed Dec 22, 2010 4:43 pm ((PST)) cigarette papers are .001 in..... best wishes docn8as ------- Re: babbitt bearing adjustment Posted by: "Jon Elson" elsonx~xxpico-systems.com Date: Wed Dec 22, 2010 7:06 pm ((PST)) No, you don't torque these bolts, you set the bearing clearance with shims. But, the real problem (I know, because I had one of these, too) is the babbit is worn egg-shaped. No amount of fiddling with shims will fix the fact that the babbit is no longer a close fit to the spindle. What happens then is that the oil is pumped out of the bearing by the gaps, and you need to feed a steady stream of oil in or it will run hot and seize. The easy fix is to get a Timken headstock on eBay, possibly replace the set of bearings (not terribly expensive)and you will be in good shape. The other way is to repour the babbit. Technically, this is pretty easy. The tricky part is holding the spindle in proper alignment while the babbit cools. If you only repour the chuck-end bearing, then the tailstock can be set to the right position and a center used to hold the spindle nose. You coat the spindle journal with several layers of waxy soot from a candle as a mold release agent, and then just pour the molten babbit in. After it cools, you pry the bearing blocks apart and scrape a little babbit off the ID, drill the oil hole and make the oil slot on the top piece. Jon ------- Re: babbitt bearing adjustment Posted by: "carvel webb" carvelwx~xxabsamail.co.za Date: Wed Dec 22, 2010 9:16 pm ((PST)) If the headstock / bearings in question prove to be beyond redemption, another option might be to make your own bearing shells . The first Atlas lathe I owned (35 years ago) was a 10D that came out of a railway workshop and had been well used. The Babbitt material had been removed and shouldered half shells made from phosphor bronze used in their place. I don't know whether the assembly had been line bored, either with or without the shells in place, but I presume the shells had been machined in one piece and then slit. There were shims in place to make up the thickness of the slit and to adjust for the 'slight drag' alluded to. The shoulder on the shells not only located them in the headstock/caps, but offered a convenient thrust bearing surface for the corresponding shoulder on the front of the spindle. It was surprisingly accurate in terms of alignment and centre height, and was only replaced some years later when a TV-54 F series with QC presented itself. Regards, Carvel ------- Re: broken right hand lead screw bearing? [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: "Glenn N" sleykinx~xxcharter.net Date: Fri Dec 24, 2010 9:45 am ((PST)) "kellyfamily1127" wrote: > I have an early 9 inch Atlas lathe that I restored over the summer. But, I managed to break the right hand lead screw bearing. Does anyone know where I can get a new one for the 5/8 inch lead screw? Ebay isn't giving me anything. Thank you for any help. Sam < Common problem and there is good info on a fix that makes a new bracket with a bushing and an aluminum rivet to let the bushing break away instead of killing gears. Check these links. The first two are picture examples and the last is a discription. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/atlas_craftsman/photos/al bum/556993195/pic/list http://groups.yahoo.com/group/atlas_craftsman/photos/al bum/1258822448/pic/list http://my.att.net/p/s/community.dll?ep=16&groupid=59029&ck=&us erid=1&userpw=.&uh=1,0, ------- Carriage Shims [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: "shuckersfan" shuckersfanx~xxyahoo.com Date: Fri Jan 7, 2011 9:27 am ((PST)) I just put put my H48 back toegther and there is a lot of up and down play in the carriage, probably 5 thousandths or so. How much play should there be in the carriage? The jig takes up the play laterally nicely but it still bounces up and down while cutting. Also, how do you guys cut holes in your shims? I'm butchering mine trying to get the screw holes in them. Thanks! ------- Re: Carriage Shims Posted by: "Hal Giles" hal.gilesx~xxshaw.ca Date: Fri Jan 7, 2011 10:08 am ((PST)) I haven't had to do it, but if I did, I think I'd use a small leather punch cutter, hammered through the shim onto something like a steel plate. It would probably mean replacing the punch after a few holes, but they aren't worth much. Hal ------- Re: Carriage Shims Posted by: "c_h_a_r_t_n_y" mgibsonx~xxstny.rr.com Date: Fri Jan 7, 2011 12:36 pm ((PST)) Re to shucker: I would clamp it between two pieces of flat aluminum stock, and drill it. Flat stock 1/8 or thicker. Then wet sand the hole area of the shim on a good flat surface with 400G wet paper to remove any burrs. To check your carriage, a 0.0015 feeler gage should be tight at both ends, both sides but still go in. In old lathes, you may find the carriage is tight in the center, and has too much clearance at the ends, a rocking horse effect from wear. I would use a good flat steel backup on 240 grit silicon carbide paper and wet sand the center, but not the ends of the carriage. After all, the ends do all the work. Remove half thou in the center does no harm and may make it slide better and more rigid. chart ------- Re: Carriage Shims Posted by: "Jon Elson" elsonx~xxpico-systems.com Date: Fri Jan 7, 2011 6:46 pm ((PST)) There are supposed to be gib plates on the bottom of the carriage. The plies on the stock laminated shims were too coarse for my taste at .004" per ply, so I added some layers of kitchen aluminum foil, at about .0015" per layer. Those can be easily cut by laying on scrap wood and piercing with X-acto blades. The shims need to be flat and free of wrinkles to work properly. When the gib plates on the bottom of the carriage are set right, the carriage can't move up and down much. You have to allow for any thickness wear in the ways, so if your bed is worn, there may be a spot where the vertical play is more than at the ends of the bed. Jon ------- punching metals, was Re: Carriage Shims Posted by: "oldstudentmsgt" wmrmeyersx~xxsbcglobal.net Date: Fri Jan 7, 2011 5:34 pm ((PST)) Get a block of lead, or glue up some blocks of endgrain wood (chunks of 2x4 will work) a bit larger than your shim stock. Find or make a punch with a not-quite-flat end, but sharp corners. Lay the shim stock across the block, set the punch where you need it, and give it a heavy whack with a fair-size hammer. Bigger hammers for thicker shims... If you took a pin punch, and put it up against a grinding wheel at a 5 or 10 degree angle from perpendicular to the surface of the wheel, it will work nicely on soft metals (including mild steel)up to 1/8"). I've done it to make lacing & rivet holes in medieval armor and jewelery. My lead "block" is a bunch of wheel weights melted into an old GI mess kit, and shaken out after it cooled. Been moving that thing around for at least 20 years. If I ever get it so full of other metals I can't use it anymore, I'll remelt the lead (in the same mess kit) and skim the "dross" and chads, then let it cool, shake it out, and used it for another few decades. Bill in OKC ------- Re: punching metals, was Re: Carriage Shims Posted by: "Bruce Freeman" freemab222x~xxgmail.com Date: Fri Jan 7, 2011 6:27 pm ((PST)) Bill's method is right-on. I recommend end grain hardwood, though. Often you can grab a piece of stove wood and saw off about 3" to give a piece with one flat end. The edges of the punch must be sharp, and as Bill says, that's best accomplished by grinding a bit off the face. The whack must be firm -- you'll drive the chad 1/8" or more into the end grain wood. If the shim stock buckles up when you punch it (unlikely), you can jury rig a device to hold it flat around the outside of the punch -- like a pre- drilled piece of metal, clamped down to the end-grain wood with the shim stock in between. The drilled hole need not be a perfect fit to the punch. ------- Bed Wear--How much is TOO much? (grooves in ways) [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: "sculpturenmotion" ghtkx~xxbellsouth.net Date: Tue Jan 25, 2011 8:05 am ((PST)) I just purchased an Atlas 10F QC54. I am in the process of cleaning and re-painting it. When I first looked at it in a dark corner of a storage building, with years of accumulated oil and dirt, I thought that the ways were in decent shape. Once I had it back in my workshop and began wiping down the ways, I realized that they had some significant wear. (I have posted some pictures.) The wear is in the obvious places--mostly within a foot of the headstock on the outer 3/4" of the way closest to the operator, and, to a lesser degree, on the inside edges of the ways where the tailstock slides. I checked the depth of the wear with a square across the ways and a feeler gauge. The most deeply worn area (about 8" from the headstock) allowed me to slide a .003" blade under the square. So I am curious: is that typical wear for a ~60-year-old Atlas lathe? At what point is a lathe not worth restoring? How much wear is TOO much? Of course, I recognize that the answer will be "it depends", but I would like to get an idea of the range of wear that others consider tolerable. My own immediate turning needs involve cuts and threads up to 2" in length, but not longer, so I think I can get satisfactory results, but I can see that turning a 36" long spindle would be problematic. ------- Re: Bed Wear--How much is TOO much? (grooves in ways) Posted by: "Jon Elson" elsonx~xxpico-systems.com Date: Tue Jan 25, 2011 8:37 am ((PST)) Yes, it is quite typical. It may be more accurate to measure the thickness of the ways with a micrometer at several locations. I had a Sheldom 15" lathe with .013" wear in the front ways, that was too much to be usable without repair, which I did. .003" wear is not such a great problem. You can solve the trig to figure out how much of a barrel effect you'd get with a shaft of a particular diameter. But, in general, the radius error will be less than the dip in the bed. The rear way, usually less worn, acts as a sort of pivot, and the dip in the front way mostly moves the tool up and down, which has limited effect on diameter. The worst case is the variation in front/back measure across the ways, which are the surfaces that constrain the in/out movement of the cutter. Any wear in the back way will directly affect the diameter in a 1:1 manner. But, for general lathe use, your maount of wear shouldn't be a big problem. Jon ------- Re: Bed Wear--How much is TOO much? (grooves in ways) Posted by: "Russ Kepler" russx~xxkepler-eng.com Date: Tue Jan 25, 2011 8:48 am ((PST)) > curious: is that typical wear for a ~60-year-old Atlas lathe? Probably untypical and on the low side. > At what point is a lathe not worth restoring? Of course it depends. Really the measure is if you can get satisfactory work from the lathe "as worn", if so then there isn't too much wear. If you can't get suitable work then by definition there's too much. It's the inbetween cases that case the trouble in definition. A lathe with fairly equal wear along the bed will still turn parallel. If you have a reasonable length of bedthat turns parallel you can usually set up to use it when needed. I had a lathe that would turn pear-shaped .006" out near the headstock so I make of point of getting the work further away from the headstock when I needed a precision bore. When that because too much of a PITA I rebuild the lathe (it was not an Atlas, by the way). Most of the stuff we do with these Atlas lathes doesn't need tenths accuracy, at least not a pre-called tenth (other than the occasional bearing bore) and for us finishing to a thousandth and fitting with a file is fine. In that sort of work you can live with some lathe irregularities. For many the solution is to have more than one lathe with varying quality of work - one for rough stuff and one for fine work. In your case I'd start watching eBay for a "new" bed for your lathe and continue working with the flaws as it exists. Eventually you'll find one better or close enough that you can fix it while continuing to use the existing bed. ------- Re: Bed Wear--How much is TOO much? (grooves in ways) Posted by: "Mike Nicewonger" twmasterx~xxtwmaster.com Date: Tue Jan 25, 2011 12:23 pm ((PST)) Some reading on worn out lathes... http://www.mermac.com/klunker2.html Mike N ------- Re: Bed Wear--How much is TOO much? (grooves in ways) Posted by: "Doc" n8as1x~xxaol.com docn8as Date: Tue Jan 25, 2011 1:37 pm ((PST)) agreed w/ jon ...might add, a traveling steady shud take out most of moderate bed wear variations ...just bends the work down as saddle drops ....also width of carriage is a big factor ....my 1895 14 in Reed has .009 thou wear but w/ 23 inch wide carriage the "near chuck "wear extends for almost 2 feet before you back up to near original specs....12in bar turns w/in a couple tenths...same circumstances on my 14 in 1917 monarch A., also WIDE DEPTH of beds, circa 14 in, mitigates the drop of the carriage cause of wear in front minimizing the angle .....feel fortunate to have acquired two INDUSTRIAL lathes of this age w/ 1/2 or better life left ......a 19 th century industrialist was quoted as saying ..i treat my men like my machines ..when they wear out, i throw them away ...many companies today operate the same only before men wear out ..in middle age ....bring in a younger man & pay him less... unfortunately the atlas /crftsmn as well as most modern china 12-14 in lathes have much shorter, narower carriages...& are way under circa 2000# as the above lathes are..... best wishes docn8as ------- Craftsman 101.07301 [atlas618lathe] Posted by: "hyocilver" anthony-danielx~xxsbcglobal.net Date: Fri Feb 18, 2011 9:08 am ((PST)) Hello all, my name is Tony. I am new to the group. I was in the market for a small lathe back around 2007. I was looking for something around 10" when I came across the 6" Craftsman in RI. I bought it and brought it home to CT. I took it apart and cleaned it up. I found that the front bearing had .005" clearance so I had a bronze bushing made up and replaced it. I then used it to make a exhaust adapter for my motorcycle. I turned a 4.25" piece of 304 stainless. I must say, that except for having to take light cuts, the lathe worked very good. I am now back to doing some repairs on the lathe. When I bought it I did not notice that the backgear was damaged. The backgear, part M6-243A, had three broken teeth. I now want to do some threading and am going to try and repair the back gear. I drilled three .070" holes for each missing tooth. I found some aluminum rivets, 1/8" where the shaft size is .078. I trimmed them down some, cut to length and pressed them in the drilled holes. I then filed them to the shape of the gear profile. I am now going planning to use some JB Weld and completely cover the pins and fill in the gaps. I will then file them down to look like the gear teeth. I was wondering if anyone had this problem? Do you think this will work? Appreciate any and all feedback. ------- Re: Craftsman 101.07301 Posted by: "Uldis Stulpins" u_stulpinsx~xxyahoo.com Date: Fri Feb 18, 2011 8:13 pm ((PST)) My initial reaction is that you will devote some time and effort and arrive at nice-looking (static) teeth in the area of the repair, but not ever recover the original integrity, toughness and power-transmitting capability of the missing teeth, and sooner than later, find that you may have been better off just getting a good, used replacement. I say this, having been a Maintenance welder at Wabash Smelting in Indiana for a couple of years, where the "dryers" (the gas fired, rotating tube- shaped ovens within which all of the recycled scrap was burned of any organics and dried of moisture), with their annular ring gears of about 4-6 (?) feet in diameter constantly loosing teeth, being a major loser in the "repair" effort. Regardless of what we did, through welding-bead build-ups of multiple passes or welding in steel bars and grinding them to "shape", the repaired teeth constantly failed. There was just no way to duplicate the original, homogeneous cast iron gear. We had to keep production moving, but it was like "spitting into the wind"...I was way younger back then and all of life was an adventure...including doing what my supervisor instructed me to, even if we all knew it wouldn't last. A "small" gear in aluminum or steel, transmitting a horsepower or less, may respond to new, welded up and re-machined teeth, but again, it may be less of a hassle to just get a replacement. There must be plenty around. Uldis ------- Re: Benchtop lathes, now value [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: "misterdevan" misterdevanx~xxgmail.com Date: Thu Feb 24, 2011 1:21 pm ((PST)) Hi fellas, I just picked up a QC54 yesterday, serial number 000271. It's gonna need a bit of reconditioning and a cabinet or stand, but nothing that I'm not willing to give it. The only hitch with this purchase is that the Quick Change gearbox has had both the levers knocked off. All of the gears look good and she spins nice and free, but I feel like those levers are going to be a real pain. I haven't been able to find a parts explosion for the 10" gearbox in the files section. If anybody knows where I can find a part number, or better yet the levers themselves at a reasonable price, I'd really appreciate the info. Thanks a lot and have a great day! Devan ------- Re: Benchtop lathes, now value Posted by: "Doc" n8as1x~xxaol.com docn8as Date: Thu Feb 24, 2011 2:55 pm ((PST)) if you have the parts, braze them back .....as strong as cast iron properly done & more chance of that when brazed than when WELDED. bury in sand, lime or fireplace to cool slowly .....if not fabricate the parts & braze, or make the whole if necessary ....if you don't have milling /shaping facilities, hacksaws, files, chisels & grinders do wonders ....made a lot of antique gun parts that way 55 yrs ago.... plungers may be a pain, & will require a lathe ......when i finally got a drill press, a whole new world opened up ... ...careless moving takes a toll on handles of all sorts......it may be very difficult to to find a gearbox being scrapped ....most wud do near anything to get one working again because of ebay values.... best wishes docn8as ------- Re: Benchtop lathes, now value Posted by: "misterdevan" misterdevanx~xxgmail.com Date: Thu Feb 24, 2011 4:52 pm ((PST)) Hey Doc: Thanks very much for the repair advice! The levers themselves are long gone, otherwise I'd already be working on them. It looks like I'll be doing some fabrication in the near future! 8-) Thanks again! Devan ------- Re: Head stock alinement [atlas_craftsman] [Head stock alignment] Posted by: "jerdalx~xxsbcglobal.net" jtiers Date: Sat Feb 26, 2011 9:35 pm ((PST)) > I'm running into the same problem. I've leveled the bed (there was a twist) but I'm still turning tapers. There's a great website "GADGETBUILDER.COM" by John Moran. He describes in detail using "Rollie's Dad's Method",(RMD), on how to check alignment. Also, he links you to a PDF file. I haven't tried it yet, I hope to get to it this week. < The "Rollies Dad's method" AKA "RDM", is an OK, if a bit fiddly and indirect, method to check alignment IF YOU HAVE ALREADY LEVELED THE BED. Unfortunately for the crowd of rabid proponents of this method, it is NOT a cure-all. In fact, it CANNOT DISTINGUISH between an unlevel bed, and a misaligned headstock (due perhaps to dirt or swarf). This is because it only uses the lathe as a reference, there is no "independent outside reference". RDM can only work if you have removed one variable by leveling. ONLY leveling is immune to disturbance from a misaligned headstock, because it uses an "outside reference". RDM is essentially equal to the "two collars" test, but the latter has the distinction of actually using the lathe as a lathe, which may posibly give it an advantage over RDM. Aside from that, those two are essentially equal. And, neither can find a twisted bed unless the headstock is perfect, or a misaligned headstock unless the bed is perfect. Sorry to burst the pretty bubble (again). JT ------- Re: Head stock alinement Posted by: "mf205i" mf205ix~xxyahoo.com Date: Sun Feb 27, 2011 1:35 am ((PST)) No, unless it has become loose, you cannot push the headstock out of alignment. Lathe alignment is always a compromise. First thing first, does the lathe face flat or slightly concave by no more than a tenth, or so, per inch? If so, leave the headstock alone. Tie down three corners and make a simple jackscrew mount on the fourth, or get out your shim box and have at it. If your lathe does not face flat or slightly concave, hopefully the error coincides with the taper, then by all means have a run at the headstock alignment. Then see if you can twist the remaining taper out using the averaging method-RDM, verified with a final two collars test. I always use facing accuracy to qualify headstock alignment because bed twist has very little effect on it. On a used, inexpensive or worn lathe, being precisely level has little to do with accuracy. Your goal is to strike the best compromise between facing flat and not turning taper, period. The choice is simple, smugly knowing that your lathe is as level as humanly possible, or making good parts. Mike ------- Re: Head stock alinement Posted by: "Jon Elson" elsonx~xxpico-systems.com Date: Sun Feb 27, 2011 12:26 pm ((PST)) > Unfortunately for the crowd of rabid proponents of this method, > it is NOT a cure-all. I agree totally, and this is why I never recommend this technique. Assuming the bed is free of warpage and wear, and the only error is a twist imposed on the bed, then it probably works. Assuming there is wear in a particular part of the bed, it can lead you quite astray, and that is why I don't like the method. Jon ------- Re: 618 Gear head disassembly [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: "carvel webb" carvelwx~xxabsamail.co.za Date: Sat Apr 9, 2011 11:42 pm ((PDT)) I am probably in the minority here, but I get the feeling that the standard belt is "kinder" to old alloy pulleys than the link belt. Scott has pointed you to the instructions on the Atlas site, but rather than banging away at the thing, rather make up a simple puller . All that is needed is a length of threaded rod to pass through the spindle, some sort of plug and nut on the back end to anchor it (this must obviously be small enough to pass through the bore of the bearing), a short piece of pipe to fit over the spindle nose, a short piece of square or flat bar with a hole in it for the rod to pass through and fits across the end of the pipe, and another nut and spanner and off you go -- comes apart in a jiffy in a very controlled fashion. Make sure you remove all the burrs on the shaft, as they can make things difficult. Small brass plugs under the set screws can prevent future scoring. Parts should be a firm sliding fit, and if not then see what's wrong -- adjusting end play is then straight forward. Regards, Carvel ------- Re: Carriage Gear [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: "Dallas" n5feex~xxnetzero.net Date: Mon May 2, 2011 6:25 am ((PDT)) "yo.dave" wrote: > I hope I am describing this right. The carriage gear box bushing is real loose on my lathe. (This is the little gearbox that pulls the carriage along the rack). Is there any way to take the gears apart and replace the bushing? Thanks David This is an Atlas 618 < David, I reworked both of my 618 lathes several years ago. Both of my machines were worn in the place you describe. I repaired mine by getting a piece of brass tubing sold in many hardware stores manufactured by K&S metals http://www.ksmetals.com/ They make brass tubing in sizes such that the next smaller size will nest in the larger size and so on. I found the size that would slip over the shaft of the drive gear. I had to slightly enlarge the worn bearing surface in the casting until I could press the tubing in place. I then trimmed the tube off to the correct length, drilled an oil hole and re-assembled everything. This makes the brass tube act as a bearing and take up the wear. It worked very well and took out most of my slop. Dallas ------- Re: Carriage Gear Posted by: "Dallas" n5feex~xxnetzero.net Date: Wed May 4, 2011 4:48 am ((PDT)) "yo.dave" wrote: > Thanks for the reply. How do you get the gears apart? It has been several years, so I am going from memory. As I recall one of the gears was made as an intergal part with the shaft. The other end of the shaft had a large square drive milled on it. The second gear had a square hole in the center and pressed onto the shaft. I don't remember exactly. If you have trouble, I can take one of mine apart and have a look. Dallas [later message] I just looked at the drawing, and yes the setup is just as I described it. Gear 51 has shaft made onto it, gear 80 has square drive hole and is pressed onto gear/shaft 51. In case you do not know there is a yahoo group just for the 18 lathes. They have lots of good information including full manual with exploded drawings that I just referenced. The group is at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/atlas618lathe/files/ I just looked at the file named full_manual2.pdf in the files section there. Now, to remove the gear, I am sure I would have held the assembly some way and pressed the gear off of the shaft. On assembly, I probably pressed the gear back on and then peened the square mating line with a small punch in 4 places to hold it all together if required. After looking at the drawing, I remember holding item #50 in a 4 jaw chuck, dialing in on the worn hole for best fit and boring the casting to fit the new bushing material. By the way, I did the same bushing install on the carriage hand wheel shaft item #79. I bored out the carriage casting hole and installed a similar bushing there. Mine were worn there quite a bit too. The complete gearcase Atlas part number M6-11 was available and shown on the 2006 parts list for $28.51, so a nickle's worth of tubing and a little lathe work is not a bad trade off. Dallas ------- worn leadscrew fix [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: "indianfourrider" indianfourriderx~xxyahoo.com Date: Tue May 10, 2011 5:49 pm ((PDT)) I had some trouble cutting 32 tpi in brass on my last carburetor job - the tool would inexplicably, it seemed, jump a thread then booger the rest of the piece. If I kept a little pressure on the half-nut lever it would work OK. I checked the half-nuts and they still looked pretty good; they were replaced about a year and a half ago. I guess I knew the leadscrew was worn but didn't realize how badly until I really looked at it. Seems it had more than enough play to let the tool jump .03125! (As I read this, it seems plausible that even though the half-nuts "look" good, they've probably worn enough to make for a bad combination with the worn screw. That would explain why I hadn't had any problems right after installing the new half-nuts...) I've read a number of posts here suggesting turning the leadscrew end-for- end to get less-worn threads nearer the headstock. When I learned I had another carb coming in, I decided to see what it would take to do it. Short answer: a lot more work than I thought! Just swap ends? Not quite... At least not on a late-model 12x36 with QCGB! I've posted an album "Worn Leadscrew Fix" that shows what was involved - at least the way I did it. Sorry the pictures are in random order - for some reason either the photo section gnomes or #!x~xx<*%! Vista won't let me rearrange them! At least the captions made it... Bottom line: Happy ending - it worked! And with what I know now, I'm pretty sure I could make a whole new leadscrew, though it would take forever to cut that keyway! Were I to do it, I think I'd devise a follow rest so I could take more than .015" each pass... My milling set-up is even less rigid than my lathe! And there are way too many axes to align. And... I'll be happy to answer any questions. ------- Re: worn leadscrew fix Posted by: "c_h_a_r_t_n_y" mgibsonx~xxstny.rr.com Date: Wed May 11, 2011 9:25 am ((PDT)) Re to indian I would also check the half nut cam and half nuts where they engage the cam. I have seen damaged cams and half nut pins where they engage the cam. Also I have one in my spare box that was mis-formed, not damaged. The pin was at an angle and this messed up the cam. Thus it did not fully close the half nuts but it seemed to work, but little loose in the lead screw. So I have half of a half nut pair for a spare. I have been around lathes all my life. Rare to see a lead screw worn completely out. You would have to wear out a dozen sets of half nuts to wear out a screw, unless you worked over and over in the same small length. Good Luck. chart ------- Re: worn leadscrew fix Posted by: "James Walther" indianfourriderx~xxyahoo.com Date: Wed May 11, 2011 7:05 pm ((PDT)) Chart: Good thoughts. I should have mentioned that I checked the cam and the operation of the half-nuts when I installed the new ones. They click open and closed and the wear on the old ones was even. (I keep my thread dial engaged most of the time to help me cleanly engage the half-nuts.) This lathe spent most of its former life in a generator shop. I bought it from the guy who bought out the shop when it closed. It came with a multitude of mandrels and fixtures marked for various auto makes and models. (Wish I knew what to do with them!) I doubt that the carriage traveled more than 8" from the chuck. The ways are worn in the same area and nearly pristine beyond where the tailstock sat. Makes me wonder why they had a 12x36... After reading your post I mic'd the leadscrew at the center of the worn area and at the original tailstock end. The unworn screw was .0005 over .75 and where it was the most worn it was almost .035 under! When I pulled the carriage for the initial cleaning everything was packed with copper swarf, and I mean packed! Miter gears, half-nuts, travers gear case, that black hole in the cross slide -- all caked with copper mud. Almost 3 years after a pretty thorough teardown and cleaning I'm still finding little bits of copper... I turned a 3/8" test shaft for a fan today and noticed something else. Most of the time when turning steel I would have a 'ghost' of the leadscrew on the workpiece after the finish cut. It barely moved the DTI so it was maybe .0001, but I could see it. More noticeable on larger diameters, but almost always there. Today I got a really nice smooth finish -- no ghost. I'm eager to try a larger piece and really looking forward to my carb job. Thanks again for your comment. Jim aka IndianFourRider ------- play in the compound [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: "Bruce Morton" brucemortonx~xxsbcglobal.net Date: Fri May 13, 2011 12:04 pm ((PDT)) I have an atlas 101.07403 lathe...12 inch by 24. Within the compound there is a long screw that is at a 90 degree angle to the ways...Turn the handle and the compound is pulled along on that screw. The screws goes through a bronze nut. I've an unacceptable amount of play in the compound ...Not a lot but still i'd like to try and get rid if it. I've adjusted the gibs. There is a bronze nut...Part number 10f-19 that i believe is my problem. However the only source i found for the part wants $50 plus shipping and i'm not really even sure this is my problem. Any suggestions as to how i can either get the part cheaper or at least be sure that is my problem. ------- Re: play in the compound Posted by: "Ben D'Avanza" bendavanzax~xxgmail.com Date: Fri May 13, 2011 12:31 pm ((PDT)) FYI there is a normal amount of backlash in that movement, in case you were unaware. ------- Re: play in the compound Posted by: "jo barden" jobarden422x~xxmsn.com Date: Fri May 13, 2011 12:33 pm ((PDT)) Hi. In all honesty even a new one will have some play; on some the bronze nut is split and can be adjusted but old dodge is to never back off until the job is finished; then no matter how bad the backlash, no difference will found. Jon ------- Re: play in the compound Posted by: "shuckersfan" shuckersfanx~xxyahoo.com Date: Fri May 13, 2011 12:41 pm ((PDT)) First thing you need to do is see if the play is in the nut or the crossfeed screw going through the bushing. Run the compund all the way out, unscrew the nut from it and then push the compund back in. Then thread the brass nut back on and see if the play is there or not. ------- Re: play in the compound Posted by: "carvel webb" carvelwx~xxabsamail.co.za Date: Fri May 13, 2011 12:58 pm ((PDT)) There are two sources of backlash typically - between the feed screw and the bronze nut in the top slide/compound, and the feed screw bearing portion in the saddle. Adjust the saddle end for a smooth running fit, and don't worry about the bronze nut as commented before unless it is really dreadful. Regards, Carvel ------- Re: play in the compound Posted by: "Bruce Morton" brucemortonx~xxsbcglobal.net Date: Fri May 13, 2011 1:08 pm ((PDT)) Carvel..How is the saddle end adjusted? Is that with shims? Is the compound rocking, or moving back and forth when there's play? I am turning ferrules for bamboo fly rods. Typically the piece is a tube about 2 inches long and the wall thickness is 1/64 inch. Tolerances are quite important, otherwise the male does not slide into the female because if there is a slight taper on the male. Also, when using a cutoff blade i get some chatter that seems to come, at least to some extent, because of movement back and forth in the compound. ------- Re: play in the compound Posted by: "carvel webb" carvelwx~xxabsamail.co.za Date: Fri May 13, 2011 1:29 pm ((PDT)) Hi Bruce: There is a fixed collar on the inside, and a jam nut on the outside, which is locked by the handle. So take the handle off, adjust the jam nut for smooth but not binding operation, and replace the handle. Chatter can be for a host of reasons, but I suggest you make sure the compound is a snug fit when parting off by tightening up the gib screws a bit, and clamping the saddle. Regards, Carvel ------- Re: play in the compound Posted by: "Bruce Morton" brucemortonx~xxsbcglobal.net Date: Fri May 13, 2011 1:35 pm ((PDT)) Harry Boyd canerodscomx~xxyahoo.com wrote: > Hi Bruce, Run down here to Louisiana and I'll show you how to take > the backlash out. Harry...I think i'll just do that. And what the heck i'll bring along my lathe with me so a pro ferrule maker can get me right. I have some play. Not a lot for most other jobs...Doesn't matter on the cap and rings, but i don't want any backlash when i'm trying to turn down a size 9 ferrule. bruce ------- Re: play in the compound Posted by: "Harry Boyd" canerodscomx~xxyahoo.com Date: Fri May 13, 2011 1:58 pm ((PDT)) Sounds like a plan to me, Bruce! I understand completely about not wanting any play. I've found that when making ferrules it's important to keep things tight. I usually go over my lathe carefully before making a batch of small ferrules. Collets help immensely in minimizing run out. I'm using ER collets on mine, although I plan to upgrade to 5C soon. Harry ------- Re: play in the compound Posted by: "carvel webb" carvelwx~xxabsamail.co.za Date: Sat May 14, 2011 6:05 am ((PDT)) Hi Bruce: All conventional lathes have some backlash - even when new. If one wants a completely backlash free set up, one would have to look at a small CNC type machine which has a different arrangement to our screw-and-nut combination. Another option is to explore various techniques e.g. if you have to back out and return to the cut for a following pass, make a note of the dial setting before you back out, then back it out enough to absorb the backlash plus some, move wherever you need to, and return to your original reading point plus the next cut increment you want to take - there are lots of variations on this as you will appreciate - but work around the backlash rather than with it. Regards, Carvel ------- Re: play in the compound Posted by: "anthrhodesx~xxaol.com" anthrhodesx~xxaol.com Date: Sat May 14, 2011 6:40 pm ((PDT)) Bruce: The following is a variation of what somebody has already told you. The gib adjusts play on the cross slide along the axis of the lathe, not the direction in which you are presently concerned. Because you want smooth action and to be in complete control of the cross slide the gib should be properly adjusted, especially at the turning radius where you're trying to do your fine work, but it has almost no effect on the cross feed position. There are three things which are the most likely problems in excessive cross feed play. The play in the cross slide motion consists of all of these added together, they are cumulative. The one everybody "knows" is the problem is excess clearance between the threads of the cross feed screw and the cross feed nut. The excessive play can be in either component and is usually made up of a bit of wear in both. To determine how much wear there is in the cross feed screw, draw the slide back towards yourself as far as it will come, then take one turn of the handle to make certain that you're not butted up against the stop. Using a dial indicator mounted to the lathe bed try to move the slide towards and away from you and note the amount of motion indicated. Take several turns on the crank and try the same test. Continue doing this until you've driven the slide far enough across the ways so that it won't move any more from rotation of the crank. Minimum reading is probably native clearance between the screw and the nut, anything more than minimum reading will be wear in the screw. Most likely you will find the highest readings in the area where you do most of your turning. BEFORE YOU DO THIS TEST check on the following! The second thing many people are aware of is excessive play in the thrust bearing of the cross feed screw. Others have told you how to adjust that. The third thing, which virtually nobody thinks of, is the cross feed nut mounting. See if you can detect any looseness in the attachment of the nut to the slide. I suggest drive the cross slide off the back of the carriage and immediately check for lost motion in the nut-slide connection, just so you don't forget to check it. Probably not a problem but it's easy to do and why take a chance. Then check the thrust bearings for lost motion while the screw is free from any interference from the slide. Finally do the multiple checks for variation in play at different positions of cross feed. When you've done these tests you'll be in a better position to decide what actions to take. Not wanting to act like a know-it-all, if anybody has any other suggestions or thoughts on what I've said, please speak up. This isn't a matter of ego, it's trying to provide maximum assistance. Anthony Berkeley, Calif. ------- Re: play in the compound Posted by: "carvel webb" carvelwx~xxabsamail.co.za Date: Sun May 15, 2011 2:08 am ((PDT)) Very good summary. Another trick which no-one has mentioned this time around, so I'll repeat it for completeness. Cut a vertical slot about two thirds of the way along the feed nut, at right angles to, and the depth of, the thread. Drill and tap the top end of the slot to take a small cap screw, so that you can squeeze the two threaded portions of the nut together, effectively eliminating all play in the nut - feedscrew interface. However note this won't work if the nut is excessively worn, or the feedscrew is unevenly worn (it will bind) - so do Anthony's tests first. Regards, Carvel ------- Re: play in the compound Posted by: "anthrhodesx~xxaol.com" Date: Sun May 15, 2011 8:30 am ((PDT)) It occurred to me late last night there is one more point which can give inaccuracy in the radial position of the cutter --- play in the carriage. My method was to mount the dial indicator on the bed and take measurements from that position. In fact if there is any slack in the carriage gib that will also show up as cross feed play. Adjust the gib for minimum play in the area where you're doing your turning, consistent with smooth motion. Anthony Berkeley, Calif. ------- Re: A banner / bonus day !!! [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: "Scott Henion" shenionx~xxshdesigns.org Date: Sun May 22, 2011 10:33 am ((PDT)) >> After a particularly frustrating go round with a spindle and adapter, I decided to check the alignment again, this time using the 6" metal ruler trick. Not only does this work a treat for aligning the tool bit on center for long work, but it showed me that the tail stock was low and to the right. After shimming, swearing and screwing around, It was determined that 20 thou lift and 20 thou to the left made the ruler dead straight and perpendicular. I used a machined angle block and magnetic angle finder to double check instead of relying on my poor eyesight. << > Help me out here, what's the 6" metal ruler trick? Just as you did, I used centers to align the head & tail stocks, and got roughly the same results as you. < This is what i used: http://shdesigns.org/Craftsman-12x36/center1.jpg Basically a piece turned to a point then the end cut off. Center drill the rest and inset a spring soldered to the tip. Took some stock and center drilled. Then mount the above feeler in the tailstock chuck and ran it up to the work. You can feel any offset by sliding a fingernail over where the tip was cut off. You can easily feel 0.002" of offset. I turned the tail chuck several times to account for any runout (was near 0.) I adjusted the tailstock font/back offset. I also found it to be about 0.005" low. Some aluminum tape between the tailstock base and body got it real close. Scott G. Henion Craftsman 12x36 lathe: http://shdesigns.org/Craftsman12x36 ------- Re: A banner / bonus day !!! Posted by: "Paul" kimchex~xxQuixnet.net Date: Sun May 22, 2011 11:00 am ((PDT)) Don; The six inch metal ruler/scale is placed between the work and your cutting tip, if the ruler tips to the back the cutting tip is too high, if it tips to the front the tip is too low, straight up and down cutting tip/edge is centered on the work. To check head/tail alignment it is done between centers, horizonal, vertical. Paul TH 10 X 54 ------- Re: A banner / bonus day !!! Posted by: "wheezer" wheezer606x~xxverizon.net Date: Sun May 22, 2011 2:22 pm ((PDT)) For a picture of what Scott describes,look here. I am making one today. http://shdesigns.org/Craftsman-12x36/center1.jpg For aligning centers with the ruler: 1- Use two well sharpened dead centers, one in the headstock, one in the tailstock. 2- Get a piece of stiff metal about 1/2-3/4" wide and about 6-8" long ie: the 6" ruler 3. Run the tail up to the head 4. LIGHTLY pinch the steel ruler between the two center tips. 5. If the tips do not align, then the ruler will tilt or twist. 6. Adjust the tailstock set over screws to eliminate twist. 7. Shim the tailstock front and back to eliminate tilt if too low. 8. Check the ruler with a try square or machined angle for true. That's it. ps: I use old feeler gauge stock for shim material. lance ------- NEW MEMBER WITH QUESTION [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: "planeshavings" planeshavingsx~xxgmail.com Date: Sun Jun 12, 2011 4:40 am ((PDT)) Hello, I recently purchased an atlas 618 lathe. Seems to be in very good condition, however it is missing the ram lock for the tailstock. Is this a part which can be made? Im not really sure what one looks like and have been unable to locate on ebay. Many thanks JOHN ------- Re: NEW MEMBER WITH QUESTION Posted by: "jerdalx~xxsbcglobal.net" jtiers Date: Mon Jun 13, 2011 5:26 am ((PDT)) Dan Buchanan wrote: >> I'm not sure the angles on the Lock and Sleeve are curved and will >> speculate they are simply flat angles. >> I've never seen a factory new one and all the ones on lathes I have and >> have seen are mostly flat but slightly rounded in parallel to the ram. >> I suspect they are made of Zamac like the gears, and being somewhat >> soft, become formed after repeated tension on the ram as a lock. "Rexarino" wrote: > The ram lock parts on my tail stock are factory rounded/curved, > no sign of being deformed from tensioning. They are Zamac, > or some alloy of zinc. Rex "Split cotters" can be made curved OR flat, and both will work if properly made. That said, "factory curved" may be not the case..... no matter what it looks like. For one thing, every such "split cotter" I have seen on Atlas stuff has been a straight angle, sometimes with a curved 'dent". But those have mostly been on drill presses, where the parts are rarely moved, and there is no regular motion of one part. For another, it doesn't take much to deform, or wear away, the zamac material. If the split cotter is adjusted "just" loose, it may simply wear away over time, and end up looking like a factory surface, when the split cotter is a loose most of the time, and the part it locks is moved regularly, possibly rubbing on it. The tailstock ram is typically moved a lot, and the lock is rarely used by many folks. Atlas might have changed design also. I ended up getting rid of every zamac split cotter on all my equipment. In many cases this required a sledge hammer or heavy jacking bolt to remove the zamac part from the bore in which it was tightly locked by corrosion and swelling. I replaced them with CRS. It works at least as well, if not better, and it reliably slides when wanted every time. It has been years now, and all still work fine. (The zamac probably worked OK for a few years too.) JT ------- Re: NEW MEMBER WITH QUESTION Posted by: "anthrhodesx~xxaol.com" Date: Mon Jun 13, 2011 2:28 pm ((PDT)) Dan and John, I'm not certain of the form used by Atlas but the correct form for this kind of lock, also known as a split cotter, is for the cut-aways to match the radius of the piece they are clamping on, in this case the tailstock ram. If they are cut as sloping flats they will have a tendency to shift the ram away from the lock side; if they are radiused to match the ram this deflecting force will be reduced. Additionally, greater contact of the radiused form will give superior locking ability without having to apply excessive torque on the locking lever. The preferred method to make the two halves is to turn the blank to the diameter for the hole into which the drop, making the length greater than required. Then slip the blank into the hole in which it will occupy when completed and cut the cut-away required material by using a boring bar set at the radius of the ram. This should result in a very good fit. Cut the blank in half leaving a small gap between the ends; this provides the room for bringing the two ends together so that they can clamp on the ram. If you feel uncomfortable cutting the curve in the cotters while the blank is in the tailstock, make yourself a jig with a bore representing the tailstock ram and another bore at right angles intersecting the ram hole at the correct offset. When the two halves of the new cotter have been cut apart you're going to have to figure out the details of the outer ends of the cotters. Lower end I think has a shape to prevent the square head of the locking bolt from turning, top end is probably plain for the locking lever to bear against. The other issue is overall length of each end so that the bolt comes out at the correct length in relation to the locking lever. When cutting the blank in half at the center of the radiused cut make the cut as narrow as you reasonably can. After completion you may find you want to increase the space between the halves a little but it's easy to take the material away. More difficult to put the material back on. Hope this helps. Anthony Berkeley, Calif. ------- QCTP ? [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: "CHRIS" teeter9786x~xxrogers.com Date: Sun Jun 26, 2011 8:52 pm ((PDT)) I recently acquired a 10F and would like to get myself a QCTP holder. Which ones will go on with the least hassle? Will I have to mill some clearance on the compound slide or are there ones that will work without doing that? I hate the lantern toolpost already and have only just started using this machine and am sick of resetting everything every time and need to switch operations. ARGGGGGHH! ------- Re: QCTP ? Posted by: "peterh5322x~xxrattlebrain.com" Date: Sun Jun 26, 2011 9:23 pm ((PDT)) > Here is my experience - > http://rick.sparber.org/QCTP.pdf Here is how to machine a "nut" using only the lathe itself ... If you buy an Aloris QCTP system, they will machine the T-nut for you, to your machine's specifications. The order sheet has a place for all the relevant measurements. However ... A functional T-nut may be made on the lathe alone, using only turning and facing operations. But first, you should center drill the T-nut end of the post for support. Now, chuck the post and blank nut in the lathe's 3-jaw, if it has low TIR, or clock it in on the lathe's 4-jaw for zero TIR, and support the T-nut end using a center in the tailstock. Using only turning and facing operations, turn the nut to fit the compound. The result will be a profile which will fit ... almost. Now, remove the nut and apply layout die and indicate the width of the T. Leave the length of the T full, if you want. Or, shorten it, if you wish, to give you some room to move the QCTP towards either side of the compound, but no so far that you can get into a cantilevered situation, which is NOT good. Finally, apply a little Loc-Tite to the threads and mount the QCTP system, leaving the post almost, but not quite tight. Now, tighten the top nut of the post, which will bring the post straight upwards, and at right-angles to the compound's surface. There, in ten minutes work, using only the lathe and a few hand tools, you have a perfectly functional T-nut. ------- Re: QCTP ? Posted by: "Rick Sparber" rgsparberx~xxaol.com Date: Mon Jun 27, 2011 5:47 am ((PDT)) Chris: Without a side view, it is hard to tell how high that bump is above the machined top of the compound. But if it is not much, just add a washer between the bottom of the QCTP and the top of the compound. Rick Rick.Sparber.org ------- Re: QCTP ? Posted by: "anthrhodesx~xxaol.com" Date: Mon Jun 27, 2011 9:01 am ((PDT)) Chris, I think you're saying the part of the compound slide between where the tool post mounts and the operating crank is higher than the place where the tool post mounts. Get yourself 1 or 2 fender washers to space the tool post up. If necessary cut a flat across one side of the washers so that they don't run into the raised portion of the compound slide. Later if you want to you can machine a dedicated spacer to serve the same purpose but this should get you started. Anthony Berkeley, Calif. ------- Re: QCTP ? Posted by: "Jon Elson" elsonx~xxpico-systems.com Date: Mon Jun 27, 2011 9:08 am ((PDT)) I was afraid of removing any beef from the already wimpy 10" compound, so I made a washer that fits under the toolpost block. You don't have to elevate it much, maybe 1/8". It is also possible to file off a corner of the block to achieve the same clearance. Jon ------- Re: QCTP ? Posted by: "mertnedp" pdentremx~xxforterie.com Date: Mon Jun 27, 2011 2:05 pm ((PDT)) I had the same question, but instead of messing with the top slide by removing about that 1/8" for about 1/2", I made a new top slide. As my original was cracked and repaired through the t-slot, I felt a new top slide was the better way to go. ------- Re: QCTP ? Posted by: "L. Garlinghouse" lhghousex~xxsuddenlink.net Date: Tue Jun 28, 2011 6:02 am ((PDT)) Some quick comments: I did get a QCTP for my Atlas 10" "F" series TH 42 and it is worth the $$ and the effort to get it working, and my experience with CDCO was just fine. BUT . . . I found that the drilled & tapped [D&T] nut blank was too big and too hard to mill. I ruined both ends of my "good" 1/2" end mill. So make sure yours is in fact machineable. I also found that there are both metric and SAE threads on it. I ended up single pointing a new nut out of mild steel. My thru bolt is metric [discussed in other posts], and I had some problems doing this. Due to my lack of recent experience that unfortunately I cannot in good conscience blame on something/someone else. *** It needs to be emphasized that the thru bolt cannot go beyond the bottom of the T-nut. If it does, there is danger of it becoming a screw jack and providing upwards force on the wimpy flanges and breaking them off. If done properly, the flanges only see compressive forces from top and bottom and they can handle this just fine. Flush as Steve shows is OK, especially with his 0.010" clearance, but I am a safety net freak and I have a full unused thread at the bottom of the T-nut when my thru bolt is tightened down. On my QCTP there is an 3/8-16tpi D&T hole on one side near the bottom. I attached a short handle with a knob on this because there was also a 10mm hole on the bottom face in one corner. I used this for a spring loaded ball. A 9,5mm ball would have been perfect but I had to make do with a 5/16" ball and a sleeve. I found a conical wound spring out of a Delta faucet would work OK on this part. And then I laid out circular pattern of counter sunk holes at the same radius as the low point on the ball on my spacer plate that I had to use to get the QCTP above the hump. I only had room for 12 holes so I have index points at 30 degrees. I had planned to get the index points at 15 degrees but there was not enough space for that. So in theory, if I chose to change the angle of feed of the tool via rotating the QCTP I can repeatedly do that in increments of 30 degrees. When I get the time I need to make some changes so that the spacer plate does not move around as much as it does when the the toolpost is rotated. If you don't need repeatablity and indexing holes, then this is of no importance. When it is clamped, it is clamped. L8tr, L.H. Garlinghouse Arkansas USA ------- Re: QCTP ? Posted by: "sculpturenmotion" ghtkx~xxbellsouth.net Date: Tue Jun 28, 2011 7:06 am ((PDT)) I purchased the CDCO QCTP and milled a flat on the compound slide of my 10F lathe to allow clearance. Here is a picture: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/atlas_craftsman/photos/album/286911529/p ic/1963555322/view?picmode=&mode=tn&order=ordinal&start=1&count=20&dir=asc I haven't actually used the lathe yet (I'm still doing some final touches), so I can't give an evaluation. ------- Re: QCTP ? Posted by: "Rick" rgsparberx~xxaol.com Date: Tue Jun 28, 2011 9:20 am ((PDT)) IMHO milling the top of the compound risks lowering the resale value of the lathe and is not significantly more solid than placing a spacer under the QCTP. It also seems from the picture that you cannot freely rotate the QCTP because not enough metal was milled. Rick rick.sparber.org ------- Re: QCTP ? Posted by: "sculpturenmotion" ghtkx~xxbellsouth.net Date: Wed Jun 29, 2011 9:43 am ((PDT)) Rick: If/when I sell the lathe, it is hard for me to imagine that someone will look at the milled flat on the compound and lower their offer. In any case, I will never get enough money for it to justify the time I have put into fixing it up! ;) I had some hesitation about milling the flat, but I felt like that would be the most direct, secure means of attachment for the QCTP. The milled area extends the original flat by 5/8". It is flush with the original flat and it allows 1/16" clearance when the tool post is rotated 360 degrees. HM ------- Re: QCTP ? Posted by: "RG Sparber" rgsparberx~xxaol.com Date: Wed Jun 29, 2011 10:47 am ((PDT)) HM, I'm really not one to talk. I've drilled numerous holes in my lathe... Rick ------- Re: QCTP ? Posted by: "peterh5322x~xxrattlebrain.com" Date: Wed Jun 29, 2011 2:23 pm ((PDT)) I've had absolutely no problem in acquiring replacement parts ... indeed, including replacement compounds ... for my Logan, and I cannot imagine the situation being much different for an Atlas. A shop-modified component, for whatever constructive reason, is perfectly acceptable to most, EXCEPT, perhaps, for so-called collectors. ------- Re: QCTP ? Posted by: "roberthynden" roberthyndenx~xxyahoo.com Date: Thu Jun 30, 2011 5:37 am ((PDT)) HM, I milled mine off too, I bought it to use, not to collect! Anyone who wants one to use it later will appreciate the fact that it is more stable with the top milled flat. It also makes changing it out easier and faster. The QCTP is much more solid than the old lantern tool post holder. Bob ------- Re: QCTP ? Posted by: "Richard Marchi" rfmarchix~xxaol.com Date: Thu Jun 30, 2011 10:21 am ((PDT)) I did the same milling job on my 10F for a CDCO AXA tool post. I didn't worry about resale value because I own the tool to machine metal with and a properly installed tool post takes priority over appearance. It works well. Richard Marchi Washington, DC ------- tailstock lock [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: "Rick Sparber" rgsparberx~xxaol.com Date: Thu Jun 30, 2011 5:20 am ((PDT)) In my latest Home Shop Machinist (July/August 2011) is an article on page 38 on a tailstock cam lock for an Atlas lathe. I still have the original lock which contains a captured wrench. It always takes more than one sweep of the wrench to lock the tailstock which can be a PITA. I can see how a cam lock would be a nice addition but I can't see buying it over making one. One thing I don't understand is why not just go with a coarser thread on the bolt? It seems to me that it would permit the wrench to lock the tailstock within a single sweep. Rick Rick.Sparber.org ------- Re: tailstock lock Posted by: "David Beierl" dbeierlx~xxattglobal.net Date: Thu Jun 30, 2011 6:43 am ((PDT)) Add a spring to push the shoe out of engagement. Made a huge difference on my 618. Yours, David David Beierl -- Providence RI USA Atlas 618 6"/3/index.html" lathe ca. 1941, shiny-new Taig mill. ------- Re: tailstock lock Posted by: "Rick Sparber" rgsparberx~xxaol.com Date: Thu Jun 30, 2011 9:52 am ((PDT)) David: Thanks for the wonderful gift! The Spring solved my problem too :-) While I was in there, I also cleaned all mating surfaces and put down a tiny amount of Never-Seez. Rick Rick.Sparber.org ------ Re: tailstock lock Posted by: "Ben D'Avanza" bendavanzax~xxgmail.com Date: Thu Jun 30, 2011 6:53 am ((PDT)) Not only does it take a few sweeps, it's also on the backside (and mine is worn, I rethreaded it but the bolt head is a bit damaged as well). The camlock on my friends' clausing comes from behind but it's much easier to operate. I'll need to get this issue. Ben ------- Re: tailstock lock Posted by: "Richard Schaal" rschaal_95135x~xxyahoo.com Date: Thu Jun 30, 2011 8:43 am ((PDT)) As you go to a coarser and coarser thread, you increase the torque required to produce a given amount of tension. Richard ------- Re: tailstock lock Posted by: "RG Sparber" rgsparberx~xxaol.com Date: Thu Jun 30, 2011 8:53 am ((PDT)) Richard: True enough. But if I also use some Never-Seez on the mating surfaces, that will cut the force. I have been told it cuts the force by half. I use Never-Seez on my mill head bolts and it works great. They don't loosen up by themselves yet are easy to tighten and loosen. The bolts also last longer without being chewed up. Rick ------- Re: tailstock lock Posted by: "c_h_a_r_t_n_y" mgibsonx~xxstny.rr.com Date: Thu Jun 30, 2011 11:22 am ((PDT)) Agree on the spring and cleaning the matching surfaces. Mine separated when the screw losened. Took it apart and found paint between the base and the tailstock. Had to be "day one" paint as this has never been re-painted. Cleaned up and about one-eighth turn from tight to free sliding with a spring and clean parts. chart ------- Re: tailstock lock Posted by: "wheezer" wheezer606x~xxverizon.net Date: Sat Jul 2, 2011 5:47 pm ((PDT)) I posted some pics of my take on the tail stock cam lock. I used a cam lock from Rockler Wood working store, a bolt with a loose square nut to fit the slot in the shoe, a strong spring between two washers to push the shoe down, pass the bolt thru a loose nut as a spacer, put the washer on, and screw in the bolt. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/atlas_craftsman/photos/album/964177007/ pic/list Fiddle with the tension until you get it set the way you want. Push lock = lock Flip up and slide. Works a treat. lance ------- Re: Update on tailstock lock Posted by: "Dp42212" dp42212x~xxaol.com Date: Thu Jul 7, 2011 8:51 am ((PDT)) Just a thought. Attach a reversible ratcheting box-end wrench to the adjusting nut. You will be able to tighten to your hearts delight and the handle will swing out of the way afterwards. I have not done this with the tailstock, but being lazy and cheap I am using said type wrench (not permanently attached) in lieu of replacing my broken crossfeed handwheel. Sears lists one type in their catalog in sets but can be purchased individually in the store P/N 0942160 (straight), P/N 0943375 (25deg offset). Also, I've seen this type of wrench in most Auto parts and hardware stores. Dan ------- Re: Update on tailstock lock Posted by: "L. Garlinghouse" lhghousex~xxsuddenlink.net Date: Fri Jul 8, 2011 5:24 am ((PDT)) Rick and others: Thanx for the comments. For the record, I did put a spring in before I did anything else and it DID help the situation. I just checked my 1950 parts drawing and there is no spring shown as part of the tailstock parts. So maybe a spring was part of the parts before 1950 and eliminated thereafter as part of a "cost savings" campaign. [Interestingly enough a hexhead bolt is shown although a squarehead is specified. The draftsperson may have been thinking squarehead but drawing a hexhead out of habit.] I do think going to a 7/16"-14 tpi bolt is worth the trouble. If one is willing to drill out the tailstock hole and the the clampbar, then all the turning the bolt between centers can be eliminated. In my mind it certainly beats making/buying a more complicated solution. I like the idea of having the potential of turning the lathe back to factory stock, so I try and do mods that don't radically change what left the factory -- thus the turning between centers as part of my prototyping. True having to take an additional bite or two with the wrench is no biggie, especially as some of us imagine ourselves as "prototype machinists," not some lowly "lathe operator" trying to "make standard." Still there is a lot to be said for "Continual Improvement" and "Kaizen." L8tr, L.H. Garlinghouse ------- Re: Update on tailstock lock Posted by: "Rick Sparber" rgsparberx~xxaol.com Date: Fri Jul 8, 2011 6:18 am ((PDT)) L.H.G., I'm all for continual improvement and even more for finding many different ways to do the same thing. I tolerated the locking action for about 20 years but was more motivated by the fun of finding a way to make it better. "Better", like beauty, is in the eyes of the beholder. Rick Rick.Sparber.org ------- Re: Update on tailstock lock Posted by: "wheezer" wheezer606x~xxverizon.net Date: Fri Jul 8, 2011 4:39 pm ((PDT)) On Jul 5, 2011, at 10:13 PM, Marty wrote: > > The 1/4 x20 bolt has too coarse a pitch and it loosens easily. > > The bolt and nut I use have a NF pitch and clamp more tightly. Update to update: I took the clamp shoe off, cleaned it, coated it with layout dye and gave it a quick shot on the disc sander. Hmm, it isn't flat. So I flattened it and it works better. Also, the shoe slides along the BOTTOM of the ways. My ways had copious crap stuck under them. Clean them off, shoe slides better. Bought a 7/16" x 14 x 3" bolt with nut tonight and will ream the through hole and shoe slot to fit tomorrow. Next project:::: How to make the ram lock tighten with less throw and bear harder on the ram. Ideas? lance ------- Re: Update on tailstock lock Posted by: "Rick Sparber" rgsparberx~xxaol.com Date: Fri Jul 8, 2011 5:08 pm ((PDT)) Wheezer: You didn't mention trying the spring with shoulder washers. That sure worked for me. Rick Rick.Sparber.org ------- Re: Update on tailstock lock Posted by: "wheezer" wheezer606x~xxverizon.net Date: Fri Jul 8, 2011 6:44 pm ((PDT)) That's because I've used them for the past several years and consider them part of the OEM. I learned about them first re wood lathes. lance ------- Re: Update on tailstock lock Posted by: "L. Garlinghouse" lhghousex~xxsuddenlink.net Date: Fri Jul 8, 2011 5:57 pm ((PDT)) RE: Rick's suggestion SetUp Piece: Imagine that Atlas is still making our lathes and that it is the early 1970s and the U.S. is going thru the motions of embracing Japanese Quality, Dr. Deming, Quality Circles and Kaizen. Imagine now that we are all on a multifunctional Quality Improvement Kaizen Team regarding the TailStock Clamping issue. We are now "piggy backing" off of the suggestions already on the table, to wit: the spring; going to a 7/16"-14 tpi clamp bolt; finding some way to keep the clamp bar parallel to the tailstock bottom and the ways; and putting inserts into both ends of the spring to keep the spring perpendicular to the faces of the clamp bar and the bottom of the tailstock. We are now sort of brainstorming things that might play off of all of these, or improve them. As an aside mangement is secretly gritting its teeth although they still smile and send us coffee and donuts and "encourgage" us. They are tic'd off that we have already added a part [the spring] to the bill of material. They aren't too happy about going to a bigger bolt, although there is a slight decrease in casting weight due to a larger slot size and they are really upset that we are now talking about adding 2 more pieces [the upper and lower spring inserts] to the bill of material. We are going around the table and it's my turn. I suggest that if the purpose of the inserts is to keep the bar parallel to the bottom of the tailstock, it needs to have as big a foot print as possible, thus a flange perhaps 2"diameter at the bottom. Also to keep the spring from cocking or deforming as it compresses/decompresses, we need to add a containment tube, just like the German MP38/40 WW II sub-machine gun had on its recoil spring. [Most folks roll their eyes at this point, others swirl their coffee cups and consider another donut]. Also we need to have the top spring insert to be a sliding fit within this tube and a big flange at the top. The top insert will have a long diameter that fits in the tube and functions as a piston. Even tho the actual stroke in practice will be less than 1/8" it should have perhaps a 1/2" possible stroke within the tube. This will allow us to use a shorter spring [which should make management a little bit happier] and keep the top and bottom flanges parallel to one another thus assuring the same for the clamp bar relative to the bottom of the tailstock. We decide that we will collect data and make control charts on the degrees of wrench movement required with nothing, the spring, and so on to provide data that will allow us to make a data based decision. The other key metric will be the amount of force required to move the tailstock 1/2". All from some yet to be determined initial torque reading off of the hold down nut. We are very pleased with ourselves and organize a sub-team to create the parts and do the testing. Shortly after the minutes of our meeting have been written up and distributed, management decides that this has all gone far enough and the customer be dammned, we're going to use a 3/8"-16 bolt with no stinking spring, and from here on out Kaizen teams will only determine what management says they need to determine. Oh, and no more coffee and donuts, and the teams meet afterhours with no overtime. But of course, we are each the managers of our own shops, and it might be fun to see if adding 4 parts [the spring, the 2 flanged inserts and the tube] gets us something. I'll bet combined with a 7/16"-14 tpi bolt, a person would only have to touch the wrench and think "clamp" or "unclamp" and the tailstock would pretty much do that on its own. Quick Note: A good source of short springs for this is from used quality automotive oil filters. Take the filter apart and look. If it does not have a coil spring then you have a cheapo, undisirregardless of the brand and the cost. Sorry for all of the above, but if I didn't get this out, I would not sleep well thinking about it from about 2:30AM to almost time to get up. Rick's ideas have a way of worming themselves into my psyche and triggering all sorts of creative juices. Later [and thanks for your indulgence], L.H. Garlinghouse ------- Re: Update on tailstock lock Posted by: "Clem Wixted" cwixtedx~xxgmail.com Date: Fri Jul 8, 2011 6:12 pm ((PDT)) L.H. Sounds like you've been there, done that. I used to be management and every once in a while the people closest to the problem came up with the best solutions - even though none of them had ever been on a design engineering team of an equipment manufacturer. The people on Apollo 13 were sure glad that "brainstorming teams" at Houston were able to come up with a workable solution. :-) Clem ------- Re: Update on tailstock lock update Posted by: "wheezer" wheezer606x~xxverizon.net Date: Sat Jul 9, 2011 9:12 am ((PDT)) I reamed out the bolt hole in the tail stock base and the slot in the clamp shoe so the 7/16" hex bolt could slide through. Really just removing casting flash, hardly any metal removed. The 7/16 x 14 x 3 hex head bolt fit perfectly into the recess for the head. Used a heavier spring over the clamp and all work very nicely. Clamps up in about 70 degrees of wrench turn. Still have about 70 degrees left to torque it down for heavy work. BTW, I glued a small super magnet onto the tail stock recess where the wrench lays when not in use. Keeps one end on the bolt and the other end in place for a quick grab. No more wondering where I laid it down. lance ------- Re: Update on tailstock lock update Posted by: "RG Sparber" rgsparberx~xxaol.com Date: Sat Jul 9, 2011 5:14 pm ((PDT)) Lance: Sounds good. I can't believe I suffered with this lock problem for over 20 years! Those tiny super magnets (neodymium) are very useful in a shop. I have a 2" square that kept falling out of its holder. Stuck one of these magnets in the bottom using Superglue and now it stays put. Just keep them away from steel swarf. They are very hard to clean up. Rick ------- 618 Thread Dial Disengaging [atlas618lathe] Posted by: "hammer44smw" elmarsalisjrx~xxmsn.com Date: Mon Jul 4, 2011 8:35 am ((PDT)) I'm the newbe on the block.... I have an outstanding 618 I purchased this spring. I am learning to use it as time permits. This week's challenge was a short thread section using the gears and thread dial as indicated in the books. Whenever I engage the half nuts, it appears the tension applied by the half nuts is disengaging the thread dial and displacing the screw to the point the thread dial will not track. When I get to the end of the cut and release the half nuts, the thread dial enters the teeth on the screw and spins while I return the carriage to its starting position.... Unfortunately, it never moved from its starting spot, so it is off when I get it back to 0. Any ideas? Is this a common problem? How best do I fix it? Thanks Ed ------- Re: 618 Thread Dial Disengaging Posted by: "David Beierl" dbeierlx~xxattglobal.net Date: Mon Jul 4, 2011 8:59 am ((PDT)) Suggest you remove the carriage and check the half nuts for a chunk of foreign material embedded. As I recall there is also a bit of slack in the mounting points of leadscrew ends and half nuts, so when I reassemble I leave them loose and mutually reconcile them so the leadscrew is level with the carriage and the half nuts engage it sweetly at the ends and don't bow it in the middle. Also the threading dial must turn easily. Mine sometimes likes to bind a bit and I oil the top and spin it until it's free. Marvel Mystery Oil is useful. So far I haven't had to press the gear off. The housing may also be distorted by the pinching effect of the mounting bolt. When it was made there was even clearance around the top of the dial, but mine is squeezed so that I had to relieve the ends a little bit to clear the dial. I think my grandfather and father maybe horsed down on the bolt a bit too much. A side note: on my lathe the banjo clamping screw will bind the leadscrew if it's tightened too much. Not related - but you have either a 16- or 32-tooth gear depending on age of the machine. Mine is the older 16-tooth and the carriage travels one inch per revolution of the dial. Figure 197 on page 163 of the present edition (available from Clausing for $25 - highly recommended) of the Atlas Manual of Lathe Operation and Machinists Tables shows the dial with a 32-tooth gear; however their rule on the following page says you can engage the screw in one of eight dial positions which would be correct for the 16-tooth gear. I used to know all the implications of this but my brain is going soft.... Yours, David Beierl -- Providence RI USA Atlas 618 6"/3/index.html" lathe ca. 1941, shiny-new Taig mill. ------- Re: 618 Thread Dial Disengaging Posted by: "Rob Chapman" chapman49682x~xxyahoo.com Date: Tue Jul 5, 2011 10:14 am ((PDT)) My thread dial did not turn freely due to what David mentioned: sometime in the past, there was someone who "horsed down on the bolt a bit too much" which made the casting oblong. I remedied it by using a punch to carefully extract the shaft/gear pair from the dial indicator (I removed the assembly and held it in a vise). Then, I reamed the oblonged hole with a drill, oiled the shaft and reassembled; it now works fine. Rob Chapman ------- Re: 618 Thread Dial Disengaging Posted by: "hammer44smw" elmarsalisjrx~xxmsn.com Date: Tue Jul 5, 2011 10:18 am ((PDT)) Thanks for the info. I have disasembled the carriage and removed the half nut assembly. It seems to me there is insufficient adjustment in the half nut assembly to remove the offset of the half nuts as they ride in their tracks in the guide/cam assembly. As the half nut assembly mounts to the carriage, the half nuts ride a full 1/16th high in the guide as a result of where the cam places the lugs on the half nut. I don't see any adjustment to remove that displacement. The set screw at the bottom appears to ba a tensioner to hold the lever in the up position and not a significant method to adjust where the cam itself is riding. This is kind of hard to explain.... If I look at the guide (that holds the half nuts), the top half nut sticks up in the guide 1/16th inch and the bottom half nut rides up in the guide a similar amount. When you remove the guide from the carriage, the two half nuts fit precisely inside the perimeter of the guide when not installed and tightened down. Raising the guide that much as it is installed on the carriage does not seem possible. The lead screw will not adjust enough to overcome the cam and half nut displacement. Right now I am stumped for a solution..... New half nuts would not sit any differently in the guide I am afraid (although I will order a set tomorrow). The cam is integral to the handle and carriage and I'm not sure how to go about replacing it or if it even needs to be replaced.... There isn't that much tolerance in the slots in the cam to cause that level of deflection in the half nuts.... I'm gonna ponded a while longer and then go after it again.... Again, thanks for the help! It got me to take the carriage off the ways, and I have never been brave enough to try that. Ed Marsalis ------- Re: 618 Thread Dial Disengaging Posted by: "David Beierl" dbeierlx~xxattglobal.net Date: Tue Jul 5, 2011 11:00 am ((PDT)) Maybe something is in upside down? The handle is a light press fit on the shaft of the cam IIRC, should be able to drive it through with a drift. If you're getting new parts, take a look at the nuts on the photo link I sent - the A-suffix nuts they're presently supplying require an A-suffix guide to go with them. Let me know if you need me to take my carriage off. Yours, David Beierl -- Providence RI USA Atlas 618 6"/3/index.html" lathe ca. 1941, shiny-new Taig mill ------- Carriage feed lever engaging when I don't want it to [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: "rickw55" rickw55x~xxyahoo.com Date: Sun Jul 31, 2011 5:17 pm ((PDT)) Greetings, I have a 12" Craftsman/Atlas lathe, model 101.28940. It's pretty worn, and has an annoying habit of having the carriage feed engage when I don't want it to. For example, if I am parting off something, the vibration will cause the carriage feed to engage, moving the carriage toward the tailstock and ruining the cut or breaking the tool. So, I end up having one hand on the cross slide handle, one hand on the carriage feed lever, and one hand on the switch. That makes it very awkward to do any work, to say the least. Can someone please advise what might be wrong, and how to fix it? Thanks, Rick ------- Re: Carriage feed lever engaging when I don't want it to Posted by: "Scott Henion" shenionx~xxshdesigns.org Date: Sun Jul 31, 2011 5:27 pm ((PDT)) My parts diagram shows a spring and ball on the half nut assembly. Maybe it is missing, stuck or broken. You could always put a rubber band from the handle to the carriage lock ;) Scott G. Henion Craftsman 12x36 lathe http://shdesigns.org/Craftsman12x36 ------- Re: Carriage feed lever engaging when I don't want it to Posted by: "Terry Lund" terry.lundx~xxgmail.com Date: Sun Jul 31, 2011 5:42 pm ((PDT)) On my Craftsman 12" lathe, 101.27440, there is a set screw (plain/straight screw driver) just above and to the left of the shaft for the carriage feed handle. Underneath that screw is (should be) a spring and a ball, and by adjusting the screw you can adjust the amount of tension to hold the half nuts open. There is a small indent in the upper half nut which receives the ball. I just happened to have had this whole mechanism apart last weekend investigating another issue. I hope this helps. Terry ------- Re: Carriage feed lever engaging when I don't want it to Posted by: "Jon Elson" elsonx~xxpico-systems.com Date: Sun Jul 31, 2011 8:16 pm ((PDT)) There is a detent ball and spring in the apron that is supposed to hold the cam that engages the half nuts. Either the ball and spring are missing, the spring has gotten mangled, or the dimple the detent is supposed to bear on in the cam has gotten wallowed out. I think the detent spring is under a setscrew, and if you remove that, the ball and spring should come out easily. Jon ------- Re: Carriage feed lever engaging when I don't want it to Posted by: "rickw55" rickw55x~xxyahoo.com Date: Sun Jul 31, 2011 8:44 pm ((PDT)) Thanks for all the good information, guys! I'll look for the spring and ball when I get a chance to use the lathe again, probably this weekend. If I can't fix it that way, I'll try the rubber band! Thanks all, Rick W ------- Print for Lead Scrrew End bearing mount [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: "tinkertoy1941" tinkertoy1941x~xxyahoo.com Date: Wed Nov 2, 2011 5:25 am ((PDT)) Has anyone produced a print for the end bearing block that was used as a safety and breaks when things get all jammed up???? ------- Re: Print for Lead Scrrew End bearing mount Posted by: "Terry Lund" terry.lundx~xxgmail.com Date: Wed Nov 2, 2011 5:56 am ((PDT)) A Machinist's Workshop magazine had an article by Stu Booher about how to make a replacement part that doesn't break when things get all jammed up. MW Vol 24, No 3 June-July 2011. I happened to buy his 12 x 36" Craftsman lathe a month or so after that issue came out, which is how I happen to know the reference. Regards, Terry ------- Re: Print for Lead Scrrew End bearing mount Posted by: "Art Eckstein" art.ecksteinx~xxwirelesshometown.com Date: Wed Nov 2, 2011 6:08 am ((PDT)) Here is one I found many years ago and the link is still good! http://bellsouthpwp.net/t/h/thib9564/Atlas_Lathe_Leadscrew_Bearings.htm Somewhere on my drives I have a print of a fabricated one that uses a "shear" pin that is easily replaceable. Haven't found it in a quick search, but will keep looking. Art Country Bubba As a follow up, I found pictures of the fabricated bng mount in the group photo album! http://groups.yahoo.com/group/atlas_craftsman/photos/al bum/556993195/pic/list http://groups.yahoo.com/group/atlas_craftsman/photos/al bum/1258822448/pic/list ------- Re: Print for Lead Screw End bearing mount Posted by: "tinkertoy1941" tinkertoy1941x~xxyahoo.com Date: Wed Nov 2, 2011 2:35 pm ((PDT)) Is there a market for these perishable bearing mounts made from 6061-T6 Aluminum at a reasonable price? ------- Re: Print for Lead Screw End bearing mount Posted by: "ChrisandJudy" chrisandjudyx~xxcableone.net Date: Wed Nov 2, 2011 6:31 pm ((PDT)) In this bearing you put a aluminum rivet in the 1/8" oil hole to hold the brass insert. In case of a headstock crash as the LS [leadscrew] pushes against the brass, the aluminum rivet shears and the brass moves to the right until the LS disengages. I drilled through the rivet to make it easier to shear and also to allow oil to the brass and LS. It works, don't ask how I know. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/atlas_craftsman/photos/al bum/1258822448/pic/list Chris ------- Enough to make ya cry. [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: "Gary" topsaddlex~xxatt.net Date: Wed Nov 2, 2011 10:55 am ((PDT)) In doing my hub (Beginner) I somehow managed to strip the gear teeth on the 9-48b gear in the reverse gearbox. Several fellows said it was from running the feed into the tailstock etc. I didn't think I did that, but I figured I did it somehow. Anyway, thanks to Steve, I got a new gearbox and got it installed last week. Today I discovered why, I was turning a shaft down to 1/2 inch and used the lead screw. For some reason the lead screw in the saddle locked up and stripped the gears again. Anyone heard of that before or any idea why? I haven't taken it apart yet, Im trying to recover my composure. Gary ------- Re: Enough to make ya cry. Posted by: "Carvel Webb" carvelwx~xxabsamail.co.za Date: Wed Nov 2, 2011 11:13 am ((PDT)) HI Gary: Did you strip and clean the apron / gears / saddle before you started using it ? The lead screw drives the mitre gear for the cross feed and turns all the time (keyed to the lead screw), and the saddle for longitudinal feed when the half nuts are engaged. Any accumulation of old swarf /grease might cause havoc if it comes loose and lands up in the teeth, and the apron is not difficult to remove , Regards, Carvel ------- Re: Enough to make ya cry. Posted by: "Jon Elson" elsonx~xxpico-systems.com Date: Wed Nov 2, 2011 2:40 pm ((PDT)) Yup, if the half nuts are badly worn, they can get out of line and bind when the keyway in the leadscrew comes around. This may only happen under load. Jon ------- Re: Enough to make ya cry. Posted by: "Gary" topsaddlex~xxatt.net Date: Wed Nov 2, 2011 9:24 pm ((PDT)) No, I didn't take it apart, I oiled it good and everything seemed to move smoothly (of coarse no load). I will take it apart tomorrow and see what's going on. Not sure how to tell if the half nut is very worn. ------- Re: Enough to make ya cry. Posted by: "Carvel Webb" carvelwx~xxabsamail.co.za Date: Wed Nov 2, 2011 9:52 pm ((PDT)) Hi Gary: The threads on the half nuts should look like the thread on the lead screw and should still have at least 75% engagement if you offer up the two to each other while it's apart . The problem can also occur if the valleys of the threads on the half nut are gummed up with old swarf -- so can often do with a good clean. Good luck, Carvel ------- Felt Material [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: "jsegal42" jasegalx~xxsuddenlink.net Date: Sat Nov 5, 2011 6:37 am ((PDT)) As I (slowly) clean up and fix the various big and little things wrong with my lathe (12" 101.07403), I noticed that the oil felts are downright filthy. In the interests of continued bearing health, I'd like to replace them. Since the way wiper felts are a rounded 'L' shap with a punched hole, I'll probably just buy them from Validus Group on eBay. The felt under the four oil caps, however, is round. Since I now have a lathe, it's a simple matter to make a punch the right size. What do you guys use for felt? There seem to be a bunch of different materials and weights. I assume Atlas chose a specific combination to achieve the proper oil supply to the bearings and I'd like to at least get close. Also, where have you found it at retail (I'm in the Texas Panhandle)? Thanks, Jack ------- Re: Felt Material Posted by: "William Abernathy" williamx~xxinch.com Date: Sat Nov 5, 2011 8:14 am ((PDT)) I've seem old machinery in otherwise fine shape with boot laces stuck in the oil cups. If you want proper felt though, you can buy it by the sheet from McMaster-Carr. William Abernathy Berkeley, CA http://yourwritereditor.com ------- Re: Felt Material Posted by: "jsegal42" jasegalx~xxsuddenlink.net Date: Sat Nov 5, 2011 8:59 am ((PDT)) Thank you for the quick response. I could use boot laces, but I'd rather duplicate what Atlas originally supplied; it's not that expensive. I saw the felt in the McMaster-Carr catalog, but can't decide among the 10 different kinds they carry. Does anyone know what material (wool?) and what weight (course? soft?) is correct for this application? Thanks, Jack ------- Re: Felt Material Posted by: "Dan Buchanan" db45acpx~xxyahoo.com Date: Sat Nov 5, 2011 9:06 am ((PDT)) Jack: If there is an arts & crafts store near you like Michaels or Annas Linens, they have a selection of good felt that you can use. I have purchased a sheet for the same purpose and used it in the headstock oilers and the grease cups on my lathe. I cut out and stack 3 discs for the cups and 5 or 6 for the oilers & it works great' Cost $1.00 vs $10+ for a sheet from McMaster. But if you must, the F5 Soft White is what you're looking for. Dan ------- Re: Felt Material Posted by: "jsegal42" jasegalx~xxsuddenlink.net Date: Sat Nov 5, 2011 11:00 am ((PDT)) Dan: Thanks, that's the information I'm looking for. We have Michael's here. Jack ------- Re: Felt Material Posted by: "Rexarino" rexarinox~xxgmail.com Date: Sat Nov 5, 2011 5:45 pm ((PDT)) I suggest you call Clausing (number in Links subheading on this group page) and order both the rubber and the felt way wipers. They're cheap, the gals on the phone know more about your lathe than you do, and the service is excellent! No affiliation Rex ------- Re: Bushing a Babbitt Headstock [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: "Jon Elson" elsonx~xxpico-systems.com Date: Sun Dec 4, 2011 9:25 pm ((PST)) falcon52x~xxverizon.net wrote: > Has anyone had any luck boring out one of the Babbitt bearings on a Atlas 10F and putting a Oilite or Sintered bronze bushing on the spindle shaft.. So putting the caps on provides a light clamping force.. It Would be nice to save it being the do provide for a smoother turning finish... < The problem is not repairing the bearing by either repouring the babbit or replacing with a bearing insert. The real problem is getting the spindle back in alignment after this job. The simplest way to do it is to create some spacers, clamps or fixtures that hold the spindle in proper alignment while the babbit metal is repoured. > Being I have 2 headstocks for my 10F I might be able to bore one with the other, Taking real light cuts and pushing it down a well greased bed with the centerstock, Just have to find a way to secure it to the bed and still allow it to slide, maybe drill the back end so I can put a T-Bar through the bed on each end of the Babbitt headstock.. Only the rear bearing is bad, The chuck end Babbitt is still in good shape.. < Ah! What you do is remount the headstock to be repaired in the middle of the bed. Mount another headstock in the usual place. Hold the back of the center spindle with a center in the left headstock. Hold the front of the center spindle with a center in the tailstock. Now, the spindle is properly aligned with the bed, and the babbit bearings can be repoured. I won't go into the details here, but you coat the spindle with candle soot or acetylene soot, put some spacers, maybe 0.016" under the bearing caps and fabricate dams to keep the babbit from spilling completely out, and then pour melted babbit in. The soot prevents the babbit from soldering itself to the spindle. You can then tweak final alignment by scraping the babbit down a little. You can also cut oil grooves into the babbit, and re-drill the oil hole. Much more info on re-babbiting can be found on the net. > Question: anyone have any idea how thick the Babbitt is, Would there be enough material there to get a bushing in there without cutting into the cast iron.. Most bushings in that size are .125 wall but I may be able to find a .0625 wall... < There are huge bronze (I think) inserts that carry the babbit. They are fairly easy to remove from the headstock when the caps are off. The original babbit was thin, but you could bore these out to fit bearing liners of your choice. Jon ------- NOTE TO FILE: [How to make a machine gib from scratch with hand tools.] On December 10, 2011 a message appeared in the group atlas_craftsman describing a practical method of making a gib from scratch. The method could be adapted for making a gib suitable for other machinery brands and types, so it was placed in the file here called "Rebuilding Machinery". A good lesson in the value of hand filing skills. ------- Another Modification. [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: "Jim B." btdtrfx~xxverizon.net Date: Fri Dec 16, 2011 11:37 am ((PST)) You guys are probably getting tired of me. This is the last one for a while; I need to get back to the MG. When my friend dropped off the top slide he also included the cross slide nut. He made some comment about the attaching screw but I did not pick up on it. I think the comment was that he did not have one. I was cleaning up the nut and I found the attaching hole jammed with dirt and swarf. No screw could ever have gone in. I cleaned it up and found the upper part of the threads was stripped. I could see that the threads could be extended so I used a bottoming tap (Read broken tap ground flat) to extend them about 3/16 additional. I could not find a round head 1/4-20 screw in my junk box so I used a hex head. (Grade 5) I thinned the hex down a bit and cut the bolt to an overall length of 5/8". Then I got to thinking. On a lot of South Bend lathes the screw that holds the nut, as well as the nut) is drilled through and this becomes an oiling point. There is usually a grub screw to plug the hole so swarf and dirt do not build up. I feel this is the best place to put oil. It take time for oil to work its way down the cross feed screw. I decided to make this modification. I drilled through the 1/4-20 with a 1/8" drill and then threaded about 7/16" from the top 8-32. I also drilled a 1/8" hole through the nut in the attaching screw hole. Now, remove the grub screw, add a few drops of oil in the hole and I know it's where it belongs. http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f334/eeengineer1/Nut-Modification.jpg You can see the finished topslide, with its new QCTP, casting and paint job along with the modified screw, grub screw and cross slide nut in the picture. Picking up on another thread, that's late South Bend grey, I have a gallon of it. Every thing gets painted grey here, unless it black or my MG. Jim B. Owner http://finance.groups.yahoo.com/group/southbendheavy10/ http://finance.groups.yahoo.com/group/southbendheavy10files/ co-owner. NJ_LoganLatheOwnersx~xxyahoogroups.com moderator http://groups.yahoo.com/group/southbendlathe/ Projects_For_Home_Shop_Metal_Fabricators ------- Re: Another Modification. Posted by: "Glenn N" sleykinx~xxcharter.net Date: Sat Dec 17, 2011 8:36 am ((PST)) Last time I had mine apart I cut a slot from the top of the nut down about halfway through the threads and installed a capscrew to pull the slot together. Makes for almost zero backlash and is now adjustable. I love the oil hole idea and I think it is going to happen soon too :) Glenn ------- Compound nut mod [was Re: Another Modification.] Posted by: "Glenn N" sleykinx~xxcharter.net sleykin Date: Sun Dec 18, 2011 10:02 am ((PST)) > How bout a pic of that mod? Sounds like a great easy mod.. Here ya go. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/atlas_craftsman/photos/al bum/89048877/pic/1496214596/view ------- Re: 10" Atlas Slips Out of Back Gear [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: "Jon Elson" elsonx~xxpico-systems.com Date: Sat Dec 24, 2011 12:26 pm ((PST)) Fred1900 wrote: > When I run the lathe in the back gear setting, the lever slowly rotates to disengage the lathe from the back gear setting. Any suggestions on how to fix this? < A common problem. In fact, the 12" Craftsman has a linkage and knob on the front with a lock to prevent it. But, the older machines had wave washers to hold the eccentric a little tighter, and also had shims under the brackets that held the central shaft to set gear lash. I found that the proper shimming of these brackets solves the problem. You may have to add shims as the gears wear. The way the eccentric works, the torque load on the back gears should help to keep the eccentric tight when engaged, but vibration can make it slowly work back against the rotation. Jon ------- Re: 10" Atlas Slips Out of Back Gear Posted by: "ChrisandJudy" chrisandjudyx~xxcableone.net Date: Sat Dec 24, 2011 3:44 pm ((PST)) Fred, My 101.7380 12x36 did the same thing. I discovered the oil screw hole for the back gear shaft. My back gears had not been used in a long long time and the gears were sticking to the shaft they run on. I put some Marvel mystery oil in the hole and turned it by hand to get it loosened up. Then spindle oil and it has been fine ever since. Chris in WA ------- Re: 10" Atlas Slips Out of Back Gear Posted by: "n2irz" baysale976x~xxoptimum.net Date: Sun Dec 25, 2011 9:01 am ((PST)) I have had the same issue while taking heavy cuts. It can be caused by binding in the spindle as well. Be sure the pully-gears running on the spindle are well-oiled - there's a setscrew for that. I hesitate to suggest disassembling all that for a cleaning, since that's a big job. You can use a rubber band to positively hold the back gear lever into position, while still allowing it to pop out for severe overload. If you think just a little more friction in the lever action might help, a few wraps of cotton twine around the shaft, between the lever and the casting, can add some. Not exactly 'by the book' but I've had it work for me. BEST QUOTE THIS WEEK: (Posted by: "James Rice" ) It's not the tool that makes precision parts, it's the tool user. I can turn to better that 0.001, any time, using my worn and ancient H42 10F - but not in the same time I can on a modern professional lathe. It takes time, care and attention to detail to make an old machine turn out precision work; that's also true of a new machine though. Don ------- Re: 10" Atlas Slips Out of Back Gear Posted by: "Fred1900" fred1900x~xxyahoo.com Date: Sun Dec 25, 2011 11:16 am ((PST)) Thanks for the good suggestions about slipping out of gear. I cleaned what was easy to clean and popped out the oil hole screw and oiled the inside of the shaft. In addition, I loosened the ring collars on either side of the gears and used a screwdriver as a lever to force the collars tighter against the spring washers which increased the friction and helps retain the shaft in position. If it wasn't for the suggestions about oiling and the spring washers, I probably would have not fixed this problem. Fred1900 ------- Re: New cross nut and clean up slide. [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: "jerryhfreeman" jerryx~xxtcenet.net Date: Sat Dec 31, 2011 4:38 pm ((PST)) Scott Henion wrote: > Received the silicon-bronze washers today (3/8" ID 1"OD about .062 > thick.) > I first installed one in the cross feed between the dial and the > bearing. It does seem smoother. Then shortened the hub* by 3/32" and > installed one between the gear and the hub. > * removed hub and took out screw/dial/handle. Mounted hub lightly in > 3-jaw chuck. Brought up tailstock with dead center for support and > tightened up. Then with 3/32 parting tool took off a blade width. > There is a noticeable difference and getting better as the surfaces > break in. Now can spin the feed by the handle rather than always by > push-pull on both ends (Gibbs are a bit tight as the milling attachment > seems to require.) I found 3/8" ID X 3/4" OD X .063" thick bronze thrust bearing washers at the local Sears Hardware for $1.63 each. Around $7.00 for four of them. They turned out to be a perfect size for this project. I made the appropriate modifications to install a pair on the cross slide and a pair on the compound rest. The effect is impressive. With the gib screws left at the previous adjustments, after installing the bearing washers, the crank action was so effortless, it was hard to sense where the backlash starts and ends. I tightened all the gib screws enough to create a little resistance in the action and recover the feel of the cranks. This made the entire carriage assembly much more rigid, but still quite comfortable to work. Backlash on both cranks is about .007" (Welcome to Japan, Mr. Bond). I did a small project and was astounded at how much better work the lathe is producing. Significantly smoother, cleaner, and more precise results, very nice looking surfaces, and the lathe is much more solid to operate. It goes through deeper cuts with greatly enhanced stability, reduced tendency to chatter. I had expected this modification to make the machine more comfortable to use, but it hadn't occurred to me how much difference it could make in the quality of work it produces. Best wishes, Jerry ------- Re: New cross nut and clean up slide. Posted by: "Jerry Hupp" jerry_huppx~xxyahoo.com Date: Sat Dec 31, 2011 5:00 pm ((PST)) Very intresting on the results. Could you post the modifications needed on the compound slide? Thanks. Jerry H. ------- Re: New cross nut and clean up slide. Posted by: "jerryx~xxtcenet.net" jerryhfreeman Date: Sat Dec 31, 2011 5:23 pm ((PST)) Certainly. I used a 3/4" end mill on my bench top mill/drill machine, but with some improvisation, you should be able to accomplish the same results on the lathe. You might have to fabricate temporary parts so substitute for the compound rest dial and indicator plate/hub (the part with the mark that lines up with the numbers on the dial) so you can use the lathe while they're removed, and you'll have to figure out how to hold the indicator plate/hub in the lathe to work on it. I had to slightly reduce the outside diameter of the bearing washers, as they were slightly over 3/4" and wouldn't have fit into the recess made by the 3/4" end mill. I accomplished that by fixing them between two nuts on a 3/8" bolt, spinning them on the lathe and taking a little off with a file. With the 3.4" end mill, I created a .063" deep by 3/4" diameter cavity in the back of the Zamak indicator plate/hub that screws on the front of the compound slide. That left the surface of the bearing washer exactly flush with the back of the part so it would mount tight against the slide and exactly capture the bearing washer. I made a similar, but shallower, .050" deep X 3/4" diameter cavity in the back of the graduated dial so it would also capture a bearing washer. With the dial, however, I wanted the washer to hold it slightly away from the front of the part it bears against so the bearing would take all the contact and leave the dial free of contact. The ~.013" gap between the dial and the face of the indicator plate looks very appropriate, especially since the cross slide dial is mounted with exactly the same clearance. After oiling, it only took a few minutes working the mechanisms before they began functioning much more freely. Best wishes, Jerry ------- Re: New cross nut and clean up slide. Posted by: "Scott Henion" shenionx~xxshdesigns.org Date: Sat Dec 31, 2011 8:59 pm ((PST)) On 12/31/2011 7:38 PM, jerryhfreeman wrote: > I had expected this modification to make the machine more comfortable > to use, but it hadn't occurred to me how much difference it could make > in the quality of work it produces. Same here. Now, getting rid of the 0.020" play in the feed nut helped ;) After the feed nut change, cuts were smoother. After the bronze bearings were added It is easier to turn. The other thing I noticed that when i run a cut up against a shoulder where it would take a large cut to move more (0.060 or more,) it no longer squealed and chattered. Same for plunging a cutter deep. Allowing the feed screw to be tighter probably helped. Before it had a lot of drag and the front of the hub and back of the dial were scored. Part may be, before I kept the gibbs to where the handle was comfortable to turn. Probably now they are a bit tighter. I can't wait to try the milling attachment. Next will probably be the carriage. It gets real tight near the headstock and on the tail end. I got the feeling it was not just wear as it felt like it was stuck in tar and as move it a few times it gets better. I cleaned the bottom of the ways close to the headstock and it moves easier. I may make some for of scraper to clean the bottom and maybe even any wear. Kinda like a block plane but uses the top for a reference. Scott G. Henion Craftsman 12x36 lathe: http://shdesigns.org/Craftsman12x36 ------- Re: New cross nut and clean up slide. Posted by: "tj" 999alfredx~xxcomcast.net Date: Sun Jan 1, 2012 9:38 am ((PST)) Could you post the Sear's part number? Plus, was this for 6" or 12". tj ------- Re: New cross nut and clean up slide. Posted by: "jerryhfreeman" jerryx~xxtcenet.net Date: Sun Jan 1, 2012 11:50 am ((PST)) The bearing washers were found in the generic fasteners section, same as you might find in any hardware store. Usually there are selections of bushings, etc. along with the nuts and bolts. It wasn't a Sears part that might have a part number. I also tried my local True Value hardware, but they didn't have as extensive a selection. It's a ten inch lathe. Best wishes, Jerry ------- Re: New cross nut and clean up slide. Posted by: "jerryhfreeman" jerryx~xxtcenet.net Date: Sun Jan 1, 2012 6:31 pm ((PST)) For the record ... I did a test using a discarded piece of 9/16 drill rod I had drilled some holes in. I tried taking a pass removing .050" (depth of cut, diameter removed was .100"). It went effortlessly, even through an interrupted cut across one of the drilled holes. I cranked it down to .060" for the next pass and it was just as effortless. Bright blue string of cut metal coming off the tool, lovely to see. I let it go for just a second into where the previous pass had stopped. That would be cutting .110 deep. It seemed like too much for it to take, but it didn't stop the lathe, and the setup seemed very stable even under that much force. It looks like I'll be taking .050" cuts routinely from now on. As far as I'm concerned, this modification is nothing short of revolutionary. It's a brand new lathe. Best wishes, Jerry ------- Re: New cross nut and clean up slide. Posted by: "Scott Henion" shenionx~xxshdesigns.org Date: Sun Jan 1, 2012 7:12 pm ((PST)) On 1/1/2012, steven r jones wrote: > Jerry, Would you be willing to take some pictures of your modification > and upload? > Your description seems adequate and simple, but I am not a experienced > machinist so I have a hard time picturing ALL that you did and to what. His mod is similar to mine although he hid the smaller washer behind the dial. I have a page on my site on the mod: http://shdesigns.org/Craftsman-12x36/crossmod.shtml Has the steps necessary. The compound should be similar. Scott G. Henion Craftsman 12x36 lathe: http://shdesigns.org/Craftsman12x36 ------- Re: New cross nut and clean up slide. Posted by: "jerryhfreeman" jerryx~xxtcenet.net Date: Sun Jan 1, 2012 8:13 pm ((PST)) Scott, your version will be easier to do since it doesn't require creating the cavity on the back of the dial for the washer to fit, and it will produce exactly the same result. Your instructions say, "You might need to take off another .062". I had enough threads I didn't have to." In my version of the mod, the .050" cavity in the back of the dial serves the same function as removing the second .062" in your version. That is all directly applicable to the cross slide modification; however, there's still the matter of how to accommodate the washers in the compound slide modification. All the same parts are there, but the geometry is a bit different from the cross slide. Somewhere, enough metal needs to be removed to allow for the addition of two washers. The part on the compound slide that corresponds to the hub on the cross slide is a flat, chromed Zamack plate, about 1/4" thick, attached to the front of the compound by two round head screws. I would be inclined to mount that hub plate, backside facing the tailstock, on something that can be chucked onto the spindle, and then cut the cavity for the washer on the lathe. This is the equivalent modification to cutting .062" off the inboard end of the cross slide hub. For that position on the compound slide, a 3/4" diameter washer may work better than a 1" diameter washer. If so, it's easy enough to mount a washer between nuts on a bolt, chuck it in the lathe and take off some. The two holes should make it easy enough to mount. I would just drill a couple of holes in a bit of aluminum and use self tapping sheet metal screws to mount the part. The Zamack machines very easily and gives a nice finish. With that part off, the compound slide could be secured by tightening the gib screws. Then you could cut out the cavity from the center towards the circumference similarly to how you would face off a piece. It might be possible to take the thickness of one washer off the front of the dial where the nut bears against it. That would be a logical way to accommodate a 1" diameter washer. Or you could do it the way I did with a 3/4" washer and fit it into the back of the dial. Best wishes, Jerry ------- Re: New cross nut and clean up slide. Posted by: "Scott Henion" shenionx~xxshdesigns.org Date: Mon Jan 2, 2012 9:40 pm ((PST)) I liked the "hidden" washer behind the dial in Jerry's version. The gap moves the dial marks a bit away from the mark on the hub. This makes it less clear on getting them lined up. So, I removed the dial, made a smaller washer and made a recess in the back of the dial. I have updated the instructions here: http://shdesigns.org/Craftsman-12x36/crossmod.shtml Everything was done on the lathe. It includes a description of an arbor I made to turn the washer smaller. Oh, and it keeps getting smoother ;) I rarely use the compound, but if I modify that, I'll write it up with complete pictures. Scott G. Henion Craftsman 12x36 lathe: http://shdesigns.org/Craftsman12x36 ------- Re: New cross nut and clean up slide. Posted by: "Steve Haskell" stevesbunkbedsx~xxaol.com Date: Wed Jan 4, 2012 8:32 pm ((PST)) Tonight I made the modification that Scott Henion describes on his website, except I used .010" brass shim stock to make the two washers. The cross slide moves like a "dream" now. Well worth the effort. To make the washers, I cut two 1" square pieces of .010" brass shim stock. Then layed them back to back between two pieces of steel, clamped the steel together, put in my milling vise and drilled 27/64" hole thru the approx center of the square shims. Disassembled the clamping jig. Then I clipped the corners of the shims to form a rough octagon shape. Then mounted a piece of 3/8-16 all thread in lathe chuck, center drilled the end, then sandwiched the two brass washers between two 1" diameter plain washers with hex nuts and with a live center in end of the all-thread shaft, I turned the OD down to .835". Disassembled the jig, de-burred the brass washers and reassembled the lathe cross feed screw assembly. Real smooth cross slide operation now. Steve Haskell ------- Re: New cross nut and clean up slide. Posted by: "jerryhfreeman" jerryx~xxtcenet.net Date: Thu Jan 5, 2012 5:06 am ((PST)) Hi, Steve. This is brilliant. It eliminates all the modifications to the lathe parts because your shim stock doesn't take any significant thickness. Well done. Best wishes, Jerry ------- Re: New cross nut and clean up slide. Posted by: "James Irwin" jirwin1x~xxaustin.rr.com Date: Thu Jan 5, 2012 9:33 am ((PST)) Hey guys ... This is not a highly loaded thrust washer weąre talking about here. Use thin HDPE, Teflon or other self-lubricating plastic film/sheet! Jim ------- Re: New cross nut and clean up slide. Posted by: "Glenn N" sleykinx~xxcharter.net Date: Thu Jan 5, 2012 10:25 am ((PST)) Great idea. I have Teflon tape I use for woodworking tools to make them slide better. Original purpose was high voltage insulation but ... I don't do that anymore LOL. ------- NOTE TO FILE: Help from Clausing. January 2012. Technical advice about Atlas (or Atlas-made Craftsman) machine problems may be found at Clausing by contacting Tom Clark there. He has been very supportive to members of our Atlas groups. Email: tclarkx~xxclausingsc.com and attach pictures if helpful. [Remember to change the email address x~xx to the "at" symbol.] He will also return phone calls. (800)535-6553 is the main number. ------- NOTE TO FILE: LEVELING A LATHE -- A SIMPLE SOLUTION. [And of course, we are not truly "leveling" the lathe, but rather making sure the lathe when mounted and bolted down does not have a twist in its bed shears that would result in turning errors as cuts proceed along the bed.] The next message comes after a long discussion in the myfordlathes group at Yahoo about that frequent subject. Naturally there was the usual long back and forth (we've seen many over the years) about whether Rollie's Dad's Method works well, or whether one needs a precision level (or can make do with various lesser levels, or even make your own precision level first), or use laser pointers aimed at far walls (the walls certainly aren't far in my tiny workshop), and so on. Then Adrian recounts a simple but effective method that has been written up before in old British texts. It will work with any make of lathe. And this method does not care if the lathe is on a bench whose top is perfectly level, or slanted slightly on a hill, or located on a gently rolling ship. It is similar to the method written up by L.H. Sparey in his must-have book "The Amateur's Lathe". The reference to using jack screws does relate to specific features found on some Myfords; lacking those, the rest of us will make do with various thicknesses of shim stock placed under the feet of the lathe. Use thin brass or other metal; pieces cut from walls of pop (or beer?) cans work well. Shims can have a slot cut in them that will make it easy to slip the shim around the bolt, under the lathe foot. And yes, the other methods may work out for you. Your choice. One dispassionate final test is to put a precision test bar between centers and clock it end to end with a dial indicator. And now for something completely different, as they used to say on Monty Python's Flying Circus. One fellow quite seriously said he never bothered to do any of this, just set the lathe down and used it. His requirements did not need super precision, and most items were turned near the headstock where bed twist would have minimal effect. Choices. Take your time and do it well the first time. Recheck after you have used the lathe for a while. A bit more precision can't hurt. ------- [myfordlathes] Re: Feedback,comments or suggestions concerning the 'Correct' way to Posted by: "le_capeau_noir" adrian.brownex~xxvirgin.net le_capeau_noir Date: Fri Feb 24, 2012 10:52 am ((PST)) Hi fellow Myford owners, I recently joined and have been catching up on the thread concerning levelling a lathe on set-up. This can be done without the use of a precision level. 1. Assuming that the lathe has its original headstock and there is no play in the bearings it is unlikely that the spindle is out of parallel with the lathe axis. 2. Assuming that the spindle nose is in good condition then fitting a chuck (also in good condition) will allow you to chuck a bar true to the lathe axis. 3. Chuck a silver steel bar as these are ground to high accuracy. Use a piece of at least 1/2" diameter 3/4" is preferable. The use of thicker bar avoids droop under self weight. 4. Set a dial gauge in the toolpost. Using the saddle handwheel bring the dial gauge up to the chuck and then move it away by about half an inch. 5. Using the cross-slide feedscrew bring the dial gauge into contact with the bar from at least 1/4" away until a suitable reading is obtained on the gauge. Don't be tempted to wind it back out slightly, go straight in as this ensures that all backlash is taken up. 6. Using the saddle handwheel traverse the saddle several inches towards the tailstock. Again don't be tempted to turn the handwheel in the opposite direction. Turn it in the same direction in one continuous movement. 7. Read the dial gauge. If the bed is in good condition then any difference will be due to twist in the lathe bed. Leave the holding-down bolts at the headstock end tight and gently adjust one of the jack-screws on the raising blocks at the tailstock end until the dial gauge reading is the same. Note that we are talking about differences of a few thou, anything larger requires further investigation. Hope this is of use. I've owned my trusty ML7 for 40 years (second owner from new 63 years ago). Regards Adrian Browne ------- New Member Here [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: "dukesalley" yankeewoodwrightx~xxyahoo.com Date: Sun Feb 26, 2012 12:27 pm ((PST)) Hi all, my name is Joe and I love Atlas / Craftsman machines. The first machine I ever owned was a 1963 Craftsman "100" Table Saw which my Dad bought for me when I was a young teenager so I could learn cabinetmaking. Later in life I switched careers and became a machinist. As a hobby I started restoring old machines and that developed into a business that became a joy to work at. I took an extreme liking to the machines made by Atlas from the 1930's through the early 1960's. I have restored Lathes, Mills, Shapers, Drill Presses, etc. I am posting some photos of a few of my restored machines. Most of these machines were rusty relics long ago abandoned and facing the junk yard. It was a pleasure to rescue them and give them new life and the respect they deserved. I also have a collection of Craftsman catalogs, 1933 through 1965 (missing 1934) so if anyone needs a scan of a machine, please let me know. It may take a few days to get around to it (I move a little slower now that I'm 65) but I will get to it. I hope you like the photos, it was a labor of love. Best regards, Joe ------- Re: Atlas 618 Lathe [atlas618lathe] Posted by: "n2irz" donrotolox~xxoptimum.net Date: Wed Mar 14, 2012 1:17 pm ((PDT)) Larry wrote: > Newbe here, I have Atlas 618 Lathe Model 3950. The Cross-slide has movement front to back, how can I get that out? Thanks, Larry < Larry, You do not necessarily need to. 0.010" movement is no problem. Some backlash is unavoidable and can actually be beneficial. Remember that you always back the crossfeed out of the cut as you get near the headstock, so if you always approach the setting from the same direction (feeding in for example) then that backlash is of no consequence. To reduce it, you can buy a new crossfeed nut from Clausing Indusrial. I have also modified these nuts so that the backlash is adjustable: Remove the nut, using a fine saw cut a slit across the nut 1 thread from one end, starting at the (thicker) top. End the slit just before the saw touches the bottom thread, maybe 1/4" away from cutting through. Drill a hole for a fine machine screw - say, 10-32 - so the screw will close up the slit when tightened. Tap the hole, then drill out the part of the hole outboard of the slit so the screw threads don't grab. Insert a screw coated with blue Loctite and assemble the crossfeed so the screw head is facing rearwards. Tighten the screw until the backlash is where you want it - you don't need or want zero! - and let the loctite set. Don't do this with a badly worn nut. Don ------- Re: Atlas 618 Lathe Posted by: "lballewegx~xxgmail.com" lballewegx~xxgmail.com Date: Sun Mar 18, 2012 8:31 pm ((PDT)) You can remove cross-slide backlash by tightening the Jam-Nut between the Graduated Collar (M6-17) and the Ball-Crank (M6-104). First loosen the set-screw on the Graduated-Collar, take out the lash with the Jam-Nut, then retighten the set-screw. Not too tight or the shaft won't turn. ------- Timken Bearings 10 or 12 atlas [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: "a8050266" mail4samx~xxgmail.com Date: Mon Mar 19, 2012 6:29 am ((PDT)) All, I have a 10 Atlas headstock Im am interested in rebuilding. IT came with a babbit bearing heads. And though it is useable, it's soon to be in need of a babbit re-pouring. With this in mind I decided to locate a Timken headstock that I could use from here on out. (Not to mention I perhaps could attempt the re-pouring but not likely.) I purchased one. But am interested in rebuilding it and then taking care of it for the rest of its potential life. Here is what I have found. I have scoured the net... and read many posts regarding inspection, replacement, do's and don'ts. What I have may in fact be in good condition. And I would not want to damage it further. However Im not afraid to spend a little $$ and time. to insure its condition or perhaps bearing replacement. I have read enough posts to hear that it is possible to cause some damage removing the bearing even if just for inspection. Also, some posts alluding that the bearings are cross referable to some chrysler spindle bearings. What I have not found is some absolute info regarding the actual bearing replacements and or what to do if the dust covers are damaged during the servicing. I have called Clausing and they say one of the 4 dust covers is available, and the bearing may or may not be available as they call in orders as needed from some other supplier. Any suggestions out there? And as always, Thanks in Advance! Sam Forgot to add: Q1: Does removing the bearings require the damaging of the dust covers (meaning is it not possible to do and keep the dust covers intact?) Q2: does anyone have the Atlas Docs regarding the servicing/R&R of the bearings? ------- Re: Timken Bearings 10 or 12 atlas Posted by: "Scott Henion" shenionx~xxshdesigns.org Date: Mon Mar 19, 2012 7:40 am ((PDT)) Q1: Mine were not damaged by pulling the spindle. Q2: http://scottandersonpipes.com/atlas_press/servicebulletins.htm There are instructions on removing the spindle. The Timken bearing and race part numbers are in the files area, here is a copy of the text: Timken bearing part numbers for 10 and 12" lathes The Timken bearings (on both 10 and 12-inch versions of the Atlas) had parts numbers that appear to have been (consistent over the years) as follows: Big Cone = 16150 Big Cup = 16284B Small Cone = 14125A Small Cup = 14276B. Scott G. Henion Craftsman 12x36 lathe: http://shdesigns.org/Craftsman12x36 ------- Re: Timken Bearings 10 or 12 atlas Posted by: "amrsandubyx~xxyahoo.com" Date: Mon Mar 19, 2012 8:08 am ((PDT)) One thing to attend to when removing the spindle that the front inside dust cover has a notch that should let the Gear key pass through when being pushed out, meaning you have to align the key notch on the gear with the notch on the dust cover for not damaging the dust cover. Because when you push the spindle out from the back the key from the gear starts to appear and will need to pass through the notch for the spindle to come out. I found out the hard way.. :) And ended up repairing my dust cover. Hope this is helpful. Amro ------- Re: Timken Bearings 10 or 12 atlas Posted by: "Ray" ray.waldbaumx~xxyahoo.com Date: Mon Mar 19, 2012 8:40 am ((PDT)) Sam, using a couple of "tricks" disassembling that headstock is a 5 minute job, tops: 1. Loosen the setscrew on the inside left collar. Loosen the threaded collar setscrew, remove the threaded collar (there is a thread protecting aluminum plug in the setscrew hole) and bump the spindle rightward until the Bull gear woodruff key just touches the right inside dust cover. That is as far as the spindle will go while the woodruff key is installed. Slide the bull gear to the left as far as it will go. Now ROTATE the bull gear woodruff out of its slot. Then bump the spindle to the right. That will remove the right outer dust cover. 2. The other covers can be popped out without damage with a motorcycle tire iron. The bearing cups are specific to your lathe. The cones are common auto parts used in front suspension and differential applications. I have zero computer skills and even I found their applications. You'll have no trouble. Spindles and bearings from lathe choppers are on ebay all the time. Very recently I saw the bearing cups alone. Any questions? ------- Re: Timken Bearings 10 or 12 atlas Posted by: "Jon Elson" elsonx~xxpico-systems.com Date: Mon Mar 19, 2012 10:21 am ((PDT)) > Q1: Does removing the bearings require the damaging of the dust covers. > (meaning is it not possible to do and keep the dust covers intact?) No, some of the dust covers will be pushed out without damage. The others can be picked out with a pointed tool, they generally are a VERY light press-fit and willcome out easily. > Q2: does anyone have the Atlas Docs It is in our files section at http://f1.grp.yahoofs.com/v1/EGZnT9jk1aU4xWGRLabigbImQCsu7Wrd20HUM If4FU_3aj6wHTGqlIPndBJbo-Q9cepSTdXiE56ivjK353RK/Replacing%20the%20Spi ndle%20and%20Timken%20Bearings.doc and also a link in our Links section to a wayback link of the Atlas instructions. > Will I require / end up removing all the dust covers? Yes, remove them all, they are flimsy and you'll smash them while performing the other procedures to replace the bearings. The outer races need to be pressed out. Jon ------- Re: Timken Bearings 10 or 12 atlas Posted by: "Ray" ray.waldbaumx~xxyahoo.com Date: Tue Mar 20, 2012 8:54 am ((PDT)) Jon, those roller bearing sheet metal dust covers can be removed with zero damage. I've done it with a motorcycle tire iron. Here's how I look at those challenges. Those pieces of metal are inanimate objects that are resisting my efforts. Do I want to be outsmarted by an inanimate object? No. I will figure out a way to impose my will on it. Finess is always more effective than brute force. Hammers are for driving nails. ------- Re: Timken Bearings 10 or 12 atlas Posted by: "Ray" ray.waldbaumx~xxyahoo.com Date: Tue Mar 20, 2012 3:16 pm ((PDT)) Sam, the spindle and all the stuff mounted on it and the bearing cones can be removed with the inner dust covers left in place. To remove the bearing cups the outer dust covers have to come off. A couple things to remember about the bearings: The cups are lathe specifc but the cones have car/truck applications and thus are much less expensive. I sure wouldn't buy any from China, though. Chinese bearings are garbage. I just replaced the ball bearings in my wife's vacuum cleaner and after some searching I found Japanese Nachi bearings at VBX.com (VBX dot com). It may be tempting to hammer the cups out but pressing them out/in while supporting the casting totally avoids the risk of breaking the casting. "Lathe chopper" to me means someone who buys complete lathes and parts them out. It's not a critical term, it's capitalism. I'm not against selling some lathe parts that have been gathering dust around here for decades or doing some horse trading. ------- Re: Timken Bearings 10 or 12 atlas Posted by: "inspiro_creo" david.deboizex~xxverizon.net Date: Tue Mar 20, 2012 5:05 pm ((PDT)) As far as removing the cups. If you don't have a press or it is cumbersome, I used a 1" square piece of soft wood about 12" long and from one end of the headstock gingerly tap it with a dead blow hammer in a circular pattern. Then repeat for the opposite. To install tap in with a shorter pieace of wood in a circular pattern until it is seated properly. I have a press, but found this easier. I mean gingerly in a circular pattern. ------- Re: Timken Bearings 10 or 12 atlas Posted by: "abobinhiscave" abobinhiscavex~xxyahoo.com Date: Tue Mar 20, 2012 5:23 pm ((PDT)) For installing... I found a short piece of pvc pipe at Home Depot, it's almost exactly the right size (just a tad large) for a couple bucks. ------- Re: Timken Bearings 10 or 12 atlas Posted by: "Jon Elson" elsonx~xxpico-systems.com Date: Tue Mar 20, 2012 8:50 pm ((PDT)) a8050266 wrote: > I discovered some of the parts are damaged. I'll do a part number > comparison. As my Babbit headstock has perfect parts. If Im lucky > some of the parts can be replaced with them. Most of the headstock parts, other than the actual bearings and main casting are interchangeable. A few other parts are in the area of the clamping ring that replaces the thrust washer. So, at worst, you might need to make up a spacer ring. > Moving forward I went to my local NAPA to pick up the 2 bearing parts > .... Only to find out they are not the right parts... "MAJOR BUMMER!" > the 2 parts are 16284B & 14276B You can buy bearings at any power transmission outfit. These are places like "Bearings Inc." that carry bearings, shafts, pulleys belts and the like. You can also check McMaster-Carr and Grainger's. Jon ------- Re: Timken Bearings 10 or 12 atlas Posted by: "wa5cabx~xxcs.com" Date: Tue Mar 20, 2012 9:48 pm ((PDT)) Sam: Further to what Jon wrote, most of the parts on the spindle, including the pulley, three gears, three bushings and threaded collar, interchange. The pulley does not have a key, because it must spin faster than the spindle when running in back gear. The woodruff key locks the bull gear (largest of the four back gears) to the spindle. Unfortunately, the spindle is one of the parts that do NOT interchange. If the keyseat in the spindle is damaged, but the bull gear still fits without a lot of wobble, you might take the spindle to a machine shop and have them cut a new keyseat on the opposite side of the spindle. If you do have to replace the spindle, it shows as being the same part number all the way up to and including in the 3996 (final model 12" built). Robert Downs - Houston wa5cab dot com (Web Store) ------- Re: Timken Bearings 10 or 12 atlas Posted by: "db45acp" db45acpx~xxyahoo.com Date: Tue Mar 20, 2012 9:57 pm ((PDT)) Sam, Check HERE: http://www.jbr17llc.com/ They have what should be the correct Timken bearings for A/C 10 & 12 inch lathes. They also have SKF bearings, though higher priced. They accept credit cards & PayPal. Here is what I have ordered from them (twice now in 3 years $130.00 for all 4 delivered) and prices have only gone up a couple of dollars since: 14125A Cone 14276B Cup 16150 Cone 16284B Cup Dan ------- Re: atlas 10f Posted by: "wa5cabx~xxcs.com" Date: Fri Mar 23, 2012 9:02 am ((PDT)) Minor nomenclature point that might be important when talking or writing to a vendor - both parts of a separable tapered roller bearing have races. The outer race is commonly called the cup. The inner race is AKA the cone. Robert Downs - Houston wa5cab dot com (Web Store) ------- Re: atlas 10f Posted by: "Dan Buchanan" db45acpx~xxyahoo.com Date: Fri Mar 23, 2012 9:37 am ((PDT)) I believe the cups are almost exclusive to Atlas lathes and some Dodge trucks from the 1940"s. They show up on eBay sometimes but WHEREVER you find them the number must be EXACT, i.e 14276B & 16284B. DIFFERENT from just 14276 and 16284. Search eBay with the individual numbers or call the company in the link I sent. They have the correct parts. Dan ------- Saving Your Change Gears [tangent from LUBES] [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: "L. Garlinghouse" lhghousex~xxsuddenlink.net Date: Sat May 5, 2012 8:26 am ((PDT)) Aside from lubing your change gears, maybe the best thing you can do-- IF you are NOT going to be using any of the feeds -- is just drop the "banjo" gear carrier down so that the change gears do not engage with the spindle pinion/drive gear. If the gears don't spin, they don't wear. After years of not thinking things through and laziness it occurred to me that as most of my jobs are very small and one-offers I was hand feeding almost everything. Do I need to mention that whatever feed I had set the change gears to was the wrong one after that job was finished? Once I replaced the half-nuts and saw how fragile the feed drive system was [IMHO -- yea, yea it lasted half a century, but . . .] I was even more concerned about wear and tear and it occurred to me to give the gears a rest if I wan't going to be putting them to work. BTW, after a long agonizing make-or-buy inner discussion with myself I opted for buying 2 sets of split nuts from Clausing and was very pleased with the price and service. I've stuck the 2nd set and the originals along with the instructions in a soup can wired to the lathe in a safe place. That way in another 50 years or so the new owner can keep making chips. L8r, L.H. Arkansas ------- Re: Saving Your Change Gears [tangent from LUBES] Posted by: "Scott Henion" shenionx~xxshdesigns.org Date: Sat May 5, 2012 8:33 am ((PDT)) That is probably only for the 9 and 10" lathes. Most other models have a tumbler reversing gear that disconnects the gear train when not in use. One of these days I'll finish the power feed used for non-threading. Then the only use for gears is threading. Scott G. Henion Craftsman 12x36 lathe: http://shdesigns.org/Craftsman12x36 ------- Re: Lathe Ways Reground [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: "jerdalx~xxsbcglobal.net" jtiers Date: Sat May 12, 2012 10:09 pm ((PDT)) May 11, 2012 "Jim Wight" wrote > Is there anyone who Knows of a place in Dallas or Fort Worth that > would regrind ways on my Craftsman lathe, I'll tear it down myself. > I'm in the process of rebuilding my 1947, 101.07403 that will be the > major part of the rebuild. Thanks for any help that shows up. > JD Wight The colony Texas You might consider an alternative to that. While grinding is a good, trouble free way (if the grinder hand does a good job) of dealing with the bed, it is rather expensive, and many may not consider that an Atlas is worth spending the money on. A 10EE most definitely is, since to buy a new one (if it is still possible) would cost in excess of 50 thousand dollars, and refurbishing completely at the factory is 20 thousand or so. Grinding by "Bubba" may be cheap, and you may get just what you pay for (cheap work), depending on how good Bubba is, and how good his machine is. But how will you know? You have to trust that Bubba won't grind a "knuckle" or twist in the bed due to a fault in the grinder or his workmanship. And even Bubba will likely charge several hundred at least. Given that, one might resonably consider alternatives. The Atlas bed is simplicity itself, a pair of flat, parallel bars cast together with supporting structure. The material is cast iron, not hardened. That being the case, it is quite reasonable for a relatively unskilled person to be able to scrape the bed instead of grinding it. The necessary equipment won't cost an excessive amount, less than grinding by anyone but "Bubba" would, and will remain in your possession for later use. The skill necessary to scrape a flat surface, or several of them, is the very least required of all the possible scraping jobs, and is fairly easily learned from smaller practice jobs done first. The time required is competitive with the time to take apart and lovingly strip and repaint the whole machine, with the added benefit that scraping actually influences its function, not just its appearance. I quite understand if you don't like the idea, or don't want to mess with it, etc, etc. I present it as an idea, a practical one, and one that I would judge is well within the capability of any dedicated home shop worker, but it isn't everyone's oyster, and that's fine. Those who are candidates to do this will take up the idea, others may prefer to have someone grind the bed, or perhaps simply decide that it is "good enough" as-is. As for information, there currently is a series of articles being published in "The Home Shop Machinist" magazine covering scraping from equipment through techniques and procedure. A good, well written series, informative and more importantly, correct. "The book" on scraping is the Connolley book advertised in HSM, but the articles will, I think, carry one through most simple jobs. JT ------- Re: 6" Atlas-Craftsman lathe [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: "Jon Elson" elsonx~xxpico-systems.com Date: Fri May 18, 2012 6:19 pm ((PDT)) shootera3 wrote: > I have a problem. The direct drive coupling keeps popping out when under > a load. Any advice? There is supposed to be a detent on this pin. Can you feel the detent when you engage the pin? If not, then there is an angled setscrew, spring and ball that are supposed to hold the pin in place. Check those parts for damage/missing. If that is all good, then the hole in the pulley is probably worn into a tapered shape. If the hole for the drive pin is the problem, it can probably be bored up to a slightly larger size and a new pin made to fit more snugly. Or, the bushings on the pulley are worn out, allowing the pulley to wobble on the spindle as it rotates. If the bushings are shot, they can be pushed out and replaced, although you pretty much need a working lathe to make the repair parts. Jon ------- A helpful tip for... [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: "crashbone256" wheezer606x~xxverizon.net Date: Sat Jul 28, 2012 7:55 pm ((PDT)) The half nut lever on my 12" AC tends to engage on its own. I use the thread dial to keep it up when I'm not using it, but when I am cutting threads, the darn lever won't stay up. The tip...remove the handle and fit an O-ring over the shaft up against the apron. Replace the handle. The screw applies compression/friction to the O-ring that holds the lever in position. Works for me, YMMV. lance -------- Re: A helpful tip for... Posted by: "Dan Buchanan" db45acpx~xxyahoo.com Date: Sat Jul 28, 2012 8:35 pm ((PDT)) On all my Atlas or Craftsman 10" & 12" lathes there is a screw (which has a spring and ball) just above the half-nut lever and just to the right of the oiler pocket on the front of the apron. The screw is used to adjust the detent action or tension of the lever so the half nuts will stay in the desired position whether engaged or not. See the Atlas File 10F-12-1 "Split Nut Installation" instruction sheet. I believe it is in the file section as a .jpg file. http://f1.grp.yahoofs.com/v1/MKcUUPwXSz-qUYmN0y_9tzbWn01QnhNfTdAtFW3zx sbxSj0EewfvMms3AVIQMA1ej-jG0aAbMdeheACfLOt8tHLnjFt1/101-07403%20Split%20 Nut%20Installation%2009-1967%20%28Large%29.jpg ) If you cannot find it, let me know and I'll email you a copy. Dan [This message was corrected by Dan in a later message and this original message has now been amended to reflect his later comments.] ------- Re: A helpful tip for... Posted by: "Gary Bauer" garybauer46x~xxyahoo.com Date: Sun Jul 29, 2012 6:09 pm ((PDT)) Thanks for the info Dan. I just discovered that set screw burried in the dirt on my 12x36 Atlas resto project. After cleaning the threaded 1/4-20 inch hole I notice that the set screw itself does not reach the rub area of the split nut plates. It likely need a small piece of lead or plastic in there to do te job properly which is typical. Gary in AZ ------- Re: A helpful tip for... Posted by: "Scott Henion" shenionx~xxshdesigns.org Date: Sun Jul 29, 2012 6:57 pm ((PDT)) I believe there is supposed to be a ball and spring behind the screw. 9-210 and 9-61 in my parts list. Scott G. Henion Craftsman 12x36 lathe: http://shdesigns.org/Craftsman12x36 ------- Re: A helpful tip for... Posted by: "Eggleston Lance" wheezer606x~xxverizon.net Date: Sun Jul 29, 2012 7:37 pm ((PDT)) Dan, Thanks for the tip. I took the screw out, nothing appears to be in the hole. I tightened the screw up and the lever was bound. I twiddled the screw adjustment and voila, a click to a detent. It's a new "feature" of the lathe; I didn't have the screw dialed in far enough for it to do anything. BTW, I removed the O-ring. lance ------- Re: A helpful tip for... Posted by: "Jon Elson" elsonx~xxpico-systems.com Date: Sun Jul 29, 2012 9:05 pm ((PDT)) This will work for a while, but it will destroy the half nut by gouging a slot in it. You need a spring and ball. A spring from a ballpoint pen and a ball from a wrecked ball bearing will fix it. Jon ------- Re: A helpful tip for... Posted by: "wa5cabx~xxcs.com" Date: Sun Jul 29, 2012 10:19 pm ((PDT)) This is also the sort of part Clausing usually still has. FWIW, if you gouge a groove in the scroll with the set screw nose, the ball won't work. They also have new scrolls. :-) Robert Downs - Houston wa5cab dot com (Web Store) ------- Re: A helpful tip for... Posted by: "none" garybauer46x~xxyahoo.com Date: Tue Jul 31, 2012 11:54 am ((PDT)) Hello Robert, I tried a ballpoint spring that was too large but found a spring in my parts storage that was perfect. Also found a small ball bearing of about 3/16 inch diameter that fit fine after cleaning the Ľ-20 threads with a tap. The split nut lever works great now. Thanks again, Gary in SCW, AZ ------- Re: A helpful tip for... Posted by: "Eggleston Lance" wheezer606x~xxverizon.net Date: Thu Aug 2, 2012 6:13 pm ((PDT)) On Aug 2, 2012, at 8:41 PM, Guenther Paul wrote: > Did you bu chance measure the ball and the od of the spring ? 3/16" ball OD. Spring diam less than that. lance ------- Re: [atlas_craftsman_projects] Tailstock Adjustments [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: "Russ Kepler" russx~xxkepler-eng.com Date: Thu Aug 2, 2012 6:20 am ((PDT)) On Thursday, August 02, 2012 09:42:37 AM danolog16 wrote: > It seems like there are 4 coordinates of alignment: height, elevation tilt, azimuth tilt, and horizontal play between the ways. The height seems like it could be raised with shims, but to lower would require machining or other material removal. < Shimming is not so uncommon. I've never seen a tailstock too high, if I did I'd take it back (if new) or put in a thinner shim. Generally they should arrive new and maybe .001" high and wear down. > The horizontal play seems like its a matter of adjusting the gib between the ways. I've also noticed that when unlocking the tailstock to allow it to move along the ways, the top half has some play in it. There are lines in the back of the tailstock that looks like they line up, but it seems like I shouldn't have to do that every time. < The top of the tailstock may be shifted across the ways using the screws in the sides of the base. On my 12" Atlas they look like very long set screws, others may have SHCS or bolts. If the top is 'loose' when unlocked then these have not been tightened on the top of the tailstock. In use these are generally adjusted as you adjust opposing 4-jaw chucks - loosen on side then tighten the other until the movement you want is observed. > The elevation and azimuth tilts are harder to judge their exact positions and seems like its mostly caused by interference in the ways. I would think the easiest way to adjust these would be to place shims between the two tailstock halves, though they might move given the play between them. < Elevation tilt is often found in older lathes due to the way the tailstock is moved - lifting up the back end a little and scooting it along the ways. This gives preferential wear to the front of the tailstock, causing the nose to dip. It's often hard to measure this as the quill and barrel of the tailstock will also see wear that may be read this way, but using a bar through the barrel usually gives yo something long enough to get good readings. Short of scraping the bottom to the ways and scraping the top flat there's really no good way of fixing this sort of problem (at least until you figure out how to make a tapered shim). A worn barrel can be fixed by honing it out cylindrical and making a new quill (in some cases you might hard chrome the old quill and grind to size). ------- Re: [atlas_craftsman_projects] Tailstock Adjustments Posted by: "Daniel Logue" danolog16x~xxyahoo.com Date: Thu Aug 2, 2012 9:58 pm ((PDT)) I've got it aligned all except the height. I'm afraid it's a little too high :( >From numerous other posts it seems that tailstocks usually come a few thous too high. What is an acceptable height for it to be running too high at? Mine is noticeably high, so I think it's more than a few thous. So I know that the only way to lower it is to a material removal operation on the tailstock base, since there's no setting on the tailstock to adjust height and raising the headstock seems unrealistic. < The two options for lowering are grinding or milling. Then it seems the obvious places to do it is where the base meets the top section. I would think the base is easier to operate on since it has a flat bottom as apposed to the top with the complex surfaces. Any ideas? Has anyone ever had to lower a tailstock before? Thanks Dan ------- Re: [atlas_craftsman_projects] Tailstock Adjustments Posted by: "wa5cabx~xxcs.com" wa5cabx~xxcs.com Date: Thu Aug 2, 2012 10:49 pm ((PDT)) Dan, How did you determine that the tailstock is too high? In the normal course of usage, that seems unlikely (since wear would lower, not raise it), unless it was too high from the factory, which is also unlikely. Or unless scale has built up on the bottom of the tailstock casting and the top of the base. Although the Atlas manual gives the method of turning a test piece between centers as the method to use to set the tailstock front-back offset, the sine-bar method is quicker. And after setting the front-back offset accurately, by putting the indicator to run on the top of bottom of the bar, will also indicate relative height of the head and tailstocks. However, good sine-bars, like precision levels, are not cheap. Before grinding or scraping on anything, I would remove the tailstock casting from the base and thoroughly clean the mating surfaces. If in the end, you do need to do any height adjusting, I would do it on top of the base, which is the only one of the three candidate surfaces with nothing protruding above or below it. Plus, if something goes awry and you ruin the part you are cutting on, the base is cheaper than the tailstock. Robert D. ------- Re: [atlas_craftsman_projects] Tailstock Adjustments Posted by: "Scott Henion" shenionx~xxshdesigns.org Date: Thu Aug 2, 2012 11:29 pm ((PDT)) Mine was about 0.004 too low. You could shim up the headstock rather than mill the tailstock. Scott G. Henion Craftsman 12x36 lathe: http://shdesigns.org/Craftsman12x36 ------- Re: [atlas_craftsman_projects] Tailstock Adjustments Posted by: "jerdalx~xxsbcglobal.net" Date: Fri Aug 3, 2012 7:29 am ((PDT)) The tailstock on an OLD machine can be too high really for only ONE reason..... The tailstock is NOT original................Someone LOST the tailstock, and later someone else got "a tailstock" for it, never bothering to see if it was correctly adjusted, and that is the one you have. For some reason tailstocks seem to GET lost.... maybe they are taken off when moving the unit, set aside, and never picked up, maybe they are taken off to put on a turret, or maybe the lathe was sold as a turret unit and never had one. Common for Logan and others, but I didn't know Atlas ever HAD a turret available, nor that they were sold as turret machines, so that last reason may not apply. You might check to see if that one really IS "high", or if it is "pointed up"..... if the latter, shimming the BACK will point it down again. Usually there is no way to put the base portion on backwards (the sideways adjustment often "keys" it), but maybe with A/C it is possible, in which case it may BE really tilted down when base is in proper position, but with the base part put on backwards it tilts up. Somebody's idea of a fix? JT ------- Re: [atlas_craftsman_projects] Tailstock Adjustments Posted by: "geoffrey_in_thailand" lovex~xxcvbt-web.org Date: Fri Aug 3, 2012 11:19 pm ((PDT)) Well, since the lathe is old I think I'd try a few things before grinding/milling the tailstock base top surface: 1. Scrape the ways. It could be there are small nicks that are raising the tailstock up a small amount. 2. Check the bottom of the tailstock base (and the two mating surfaces of the base/tailstock) for burs or nicks or scarf. If you find any maybe you could remove them using a special flat sharpening stone (such as those used for sharpening planer blades) or, a piece of 600 grit sand paper on a flat piece of steel (a part of the lathe). To check to see if the tailstock is pointed up or down maybe you could check it by extending the barrel out different ammounts and checking the head/tail height difference. This is dependent on your barrel not being worn, your bed being level and free of raised nicks. It is probably best to check it at 0 extension and then 2" or 3" extension but not the full extension. If you use a vertical steel rule between head/tail centers to amplify the vertical offset, you might be able to calculate the offset using a plumb bob, another rule and trigonometry. You seem determined and hopeful. I pray for your success. ------- Re: [atlas_craftsman_projects] Tailstock Adjustments Posted by: "John" jeknoxx~xxknoxusa.com Date: Sun Aug 5, 2012 7:54 am ((PDT)) Hi Dan, I have not followed the Atlas lathe group much lately but on this tailstock thing I believe I may be able to help settle things a bit. Let me suggest you put a piece of stock in a chuck or collet that is a bit larger than the tailstock quill diameter let it extend out from the chuck or collet by 3 to 4 inches. Now carefully turn the OD for maybe 3/8" to a diameter "exactly" the same as the tailstock quill with a nice finish. Next, bring the tailstock up so with the quill extender enough to be within 1/4" of the piece you have turned, now mount an indicator on the compound such that the pointer (contact tip) contacts the top of the quill or turned piece with just enough contact to move the indicator by 2 to 4 thou. Now carefully move the cross-slide forward & back & record the greatest reading, now move the carriage to place the indicator point on the other diameter & use the cross-slide to get the greatest reading. (Do-Not move anything except the carriage & cross-slide & slightly hold your breath!) Do this at least twice just to see if it will repeat, if so the difference between the 2 readings is the difference in the height of the headstock & tailstock. I believe American lathe standards, (depending on what class you look at) indicate the tailstock center when new should be .0005 to .001 high with all the other specifications such as be straightness, alignment etc. all within standard limits. BTW while you have this setup you may want to locate the indicator point on front of the turned piece & quill as nearly on center as you can & traverse the carriage to see what the front & back difference is. Note, this reading can be affected some by bed twist if that is present. Hope some of this may help! Regards, John K ------- Re: [atlas_craftsman_projects] Tailstock Adjustments Posted by: "gennady_123" zoyagenax~xxyahoo.com Date: Sun Aug 5, 2012 9:40 am ((PDT)) John, Is not it simpler just to put the indicator or DTI in the chuck with the tip on TS quill and rotating the chuck read the difference indicating on upper and lower part of the quill? You also can read it on front and back sides so you may have a full picture of concentricity (both vertical and horizontal) of HS and TS. Best regards, Gennady ------- Re: [atlas_craftsman_projects] Tailstock Adjustments Posted by: "John" jeknoxx~xxknoxusa.com Date: Sun Aug 5, 2012 1:05 pm ((PDT)) Hi Gennady, Yes it is OK to read front to rear on a horizontal appilcation but the up & down reading can not be relied upon to be accurate. Best Regards, John K ------- Re: [atlas_craftsman_projects] Tailstock Adjustments Posted by: "Jon Elson" elsonx~xxpico-systems.com Date: Sun Aug 5, 2012 9:48 am ((PDT)) The only problem there is the keyway at the bottom of the ram (quill). If you are careful to avoid that, your method should work. The problem with the keyway is that the bump when the indicator hits that spot may shift the zero a bit. Jon ------- Re: [atlas_craftsman_projects] Tailstock Adjustments Posted by: "gennady_123" zoyagenax~xxyahoo.com Date: Sun Aug 5, 2012 12:45 pm ((PDT)) To avoid the keyway problem, the dead center can be inserted in TS and you can indicate it as close to the quill as you wish. ------- Re: [atlas_craftsman_projects] Tailstock Adjustments Posted by: "John" jeknoxx~xxknoxusa.com Date: Sun Aug 5, 2012 12:58 pm ((PDT)) Hi Gennady, You are absolutely correct it is a lot easier however it is far less accurate. To prove my point put a 1-1/2 or 2" scrap bar hanging 6 or 8" out of the chuck then fix the indicator base to the chuck, now put the point of the indicator right up close to the chuck, rotate the chuck by hand watching the indicator "varlar" the reading is most likely "0" now leave the indicator base where it is and extend the indicator out to within a short distance from the end of the bar, now turn the chuck by hand & observe the indicator; the reading now is the sag in the indicator support or mounting the bar is not wobbling or high. The moral to this is, be very careful sweeping a hole or bore on a horizontal, unlike doing the same thing on a vertical machine. Best Regards, John K ------- Re: [atlas_craftsman_projects] Tailstock Adjustments Posted by: "gennady_123" zoyagenax~xxyahoo.com Date: Sun Aug 5, 2012 3:08 pm ((PDT)) Jon and John: Yes, both of you may be right. Just for the reference, to be sure we are talking about the same thing, here is what prompted my suggestion: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1EZh8SUoA4o&feature=related It does not look to me that Tubalcain's setup will sag down under the weight of indicator. I will try it myself to see how it works. Best regards, Gennady ------- Re: [atlas_craftsman_projects] Tailstock Adjustments Posted by: "Jon Elson" elsonx~xxpico-systems.com Date: Sun Aug 5, 2012 4:08 pm ((PDT)) Certainly, some mediocre indicator mounts are awful, but a well-made magnetic mount with a flat bottom, or a bar held in the chuck, will not sag enough to matter when turned upside down. I have had to hand-scrape the bottom of my magnetic mount to get it to sit flat without rocking, but then it worked quite well. Jon ------- Re: [atlas_craftsman_projects] Tailstock Adjustments Posted by: "anthrhodesx~xxaol.com" Date: Sun Aug 5, 2012 3:21 pm ((PDT)) Gennady: Actually, while it might be a moot point, you're measuring the wrong thing. You're not interested in the OD, you're interested in the bore. You could even go so far as to say you're interested in the center of the bore and the truth of the axial alignment of the Morse taper. While you might expect the OD to be concentric to the bore there's no guarantee that that is true. Better to take your reading a 1/4" or 1/2" inside the bore rather than on the OD of the quill, just on general principles. Anthony Berkeley, Calif. ------- Re: [atlas_craftsman_projects] Tailstock Adjustments Posted by: "Jon Elson" elsonx~xxpico-systems.com Date: Sun Aug 5, 2012 4:10 pm ((PDT)) anthrhodesx~xxaol.com wrote: > You're not interested in the OD, you're interested in the bore. Yes, this is a good point. No easy way to know how accurate the ID / OD alignment is. Measuring the inside of the taper is harder, but can be done with finger- type DTIs. You may need a mirror to see the reading as you rotate the indicator. Jon ------- Re: [atlas_craftsman_projects] Tailstock Adjustments Posted by: "Guenther Paul" paulguenterx~xxatt.net Date: Sun Aug 5, 2012 6:06 pm ((PDT)) If the truth is said. With the tailstock a bit higher or lower it will not create a taper cut between centers. I don't believe any make lathe has a perfect alignment tailstock to headstock. The levelness of the bed plays a big role as well. GP ------- NOTE TO FILE: This above topic continued to ramble on but I tuned out. A month later there was a posting with the happy end of the story -- see next message. ------- Re: Tailstock Adjustments Posted by: "geoffrey_in_thailand" lovex~xxcvbt-web.org Date: Mon Sep 10, 2012 6:31 pm ((PDT)) OK, here's the end of the story: Daniel, our intern, left to go back to California (we're in Thailand). A professor from Cal Poly came to visit bringing an alignment bar with him. I taught Noy (a village housewife with a GED junior high education) to set up and read the dial caliper. The 1" diameter, 12" long alignment bar was between centers. She zeroed the tailstock horizontaly. Vertically we showed the tailstock too high. We borrowed a 1" wide scraper from Nong Khai technical college and scraped the ways. We got very little change. We took the tailstock off its base and took a fine whetstone to the top of the base. She assembled and measured - no change. She disassembled. I discovered a lip of metal flashing around the edge of the bottom of the tailstock. We scraped that off. We were down to .005" high. We tried sanding the top of the base with some fine sand paper. No change. So, I measured the thickness carefully, took it to a machine shop and he milled it down to the thickness I wanted. We assembled it and it was spot on. The alignment bar is back at Cal Poly. Thanks to everyone. [:)] ------- TS Experience on 6 inch [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: "c_h_a_r_t_n_y" mgibsonx~xxstny.rr.com Date: Thu Aug 9, 2012 11:25 am ((PDT)) I tried the indicator on the bar in the chuck on my 6-18. It showed 0.010" difference which is off 0.005" from center. I loosened the hold down bolt and tried to center it with the opposing screws and it did not work. The top casting tried to lift off the bottom casting a few thousandths. This should slide freely. I took it apart and found paint between the halves. Clearly original paint as it has not been repainted. I indicated the OD of the TS Ram with it tight. And then the rest of the story. The screws are cup point hardened set screws. The post on the casing they hit is "as cast" and they dig into it. I took a Dermal and ground the casting surface, as that is hard to file in the as cast surface. Then I took a flat file and made the contact sides flat. I took the set screws and ground the cup off a bit on the side of a fine grinding wheel. Wet sanded the mating parts with 400G paper to get the paint and rust off. Cleaned, oiled, and assemble and it works great. Adjusted and with the holddown bolt tight I get this; Now as I turn the dial indicator, the sides are within a thou and the top in between the two. Of course I know not to do the bottom. ;-)) chart ------- [atlas_craftsman] Rebuilding My 10F, But Needs Scraping Or Other..Help Please... Posted by: "bigcheif4" patrickonbx~xxgmail.com Date: Fri Aug 17, 2012 1:41 pm ((PDT)) Hello Gang, It's been awhile since my last post, but in the last couple of weeks I have decided to rebuild my 10F and see if I can get it back up to standards... or so I thought! The cross and compound slides have some issues. I cannot go to far in either direction on them without some unwanted binding happening. In the small area that they seem to slide pretty nicely, it's also got some slop. If I try and tighten up the gibs to take up the slop, then it of course minimizes the travel. So, I was looking around the net for ways to fix this problem and found this article on "Lapping the Dovetails" at the "Mini Lathe dot Com" website. Basically, you use a lapping compound on the ways of say the cross slide, work the two back and forth, clean, re-do, etc. until you take off enough of the high spots that you get a nice even smooth slide from the thing. Then move on and do the same to the compound slide. I was pretty excited about this until doing more research and finding that basically all you are doing with this technique is destroying the ways and it will not make things any better. Well, more research later I am finding that the proper way of doing things is to either "scrape" in the ways to be correct or have everything re-ground to proper specs. Well, apparently one does not just buy a couple of tools and scrape the ways in, it takes many hours of know how from an experienced scraper to do things correctly. Well, that's not me. So, the only thing left is to have things re-ground and I don't think I'm really wanting to spend that kind of money. It sounds as though I could probably buy a new machine for the cost. So anyway, I would like your input here. Is the lapping method OK to do on an old out of whack machine like mine or should I just repaint and sell it and move on? Any thoughts and input would be greatly appreciated. Thanks, Patrick ------- (no subject) Posted by: "(no author)" (no email address) Date: Sat Aug 18, 2012 1:07 am ((PDT)) Hi Patrick, Some thoughts - Depends what you want to use the lathe for. As you have correctly surmised, the ways have been worn in the area where it is/was most used . If you are going to use the lathe in the same area then it is generally not a problem - snug it up for that area knowing that it will bind if you move out of the area, but so what if you are not using its "extended range"? Scraping and grinding is an option, but as you also correctly point out it is neither trivial nor cheap. The "Lapping" you refer to was generally more applicable to smoothing out the finish on a new lathe which was poorly finished rather than to address wear . Depending on the level of accuracy you require there is another 'work around' I picked up from a fitter in our workshop years ago. Replace a couple of the gib screws with Allen Cap screws which are quick and easy to adjust. Adjust the gib(s) to a compromise position so that it is slightly loose in the worn area, and slightly tight in the unworn area, and use the Allen cap screws to snug up the gib as you approach your final cuts. With a bit of experience you will quickly see that you need to say turn them by an eighth of a turn gauged by the position of the Allen Key you are using. (Of course this won't really work if you are turning or facing an item that does require the full range of the lathe.) If none of this appeals to you, then watch out for a lathe (or a bed) in better shape, but any flatbed lathe which is 50 years old and has been used a lot will probably exhibit the same symptoms, Regards, Carvel ------- Re: Rebuilding My 10F, But Needs Scraping Or Other..Help Please... Posted by: "john baird" alexandra.leavingx~xxyahoo.co.uk Date: Sat Aug 18, 2012 4:39 am ((PDT)) Hi Patrick, don't know if I am reading this right, but is your main problem the cross slide and compound? if that's the case, they should be fixable, even if you have to remove them and take them to a local machine shop, over size gibs and all that, but then your message is also talking about "ways" and grinding -- is that the bed ways? -- which is then a much bigger job. Regards jb ------- Re: Rebuilding My 10F, But Needs Scraping Or Other..Help Please... Posted by: "JOHN PERRY" perry7122x~xxbellsouth.net Date: Sat Aug 18, 2012 4:48 am ((PDT)) My tailstock was binding and I found that through cleaning to remove the built up gunk and oiling was sufficient to free things up nicely. John ------- Re: Rebuilding My 10F, But Needs Scraping Or Other..Help Please... Posted by: "Doc" n8as1x~xxaol.com docn8as Date: Sat Aug 18, 2012 8:26 am ((PDT)) FWIW ......a word on bed wear ....i am brazing & recutting several bull gear teeth on a logan 10 inquick change lathe ....there is 27 thou bed wear on the first 12 inches ..& i considered scraping, until i started THINKING abt it & checking .....BUT w/in that 12 inches there is less than 5 thou DIFFERENCE .......IIRC,..on a one inch bar, i once trigged out only a couple tenths variation w/ TEN thou bed wear.....the smaller the diameter bar, the more variation, but even on a quarter inch bar, it is less than a thou & how often do you turn a 1/4 in bar for 12 inches. THAT said ...a follower rest will mitigate near all longitudinal wear.!!! ...if cutting a 24 in bar full length & i have NEVER done that in 50 + years ...set up the follower rest on the high part of bed & as you cut where bed is worn, the follower rest will pull down the bar, keeping the bit on center & cutting the same amt. FWIW #2 ..there are many who can do accurate work w/ pristine machines, BUT it requires more skill & experience to do accurate work on a worn machine ...using one, you will become a better machinist. FWIW #3 ....as a child, i complained to my daddy (an MIT engineer) that i didnt have the tools to do what i wanted ...he replied "any fool can make a part w/ the right tools, it takes REAL talent to do it w/out the right tools" ......well, this was the depression time, & money being short, that colored his remark.... .daddy was almost always right, but this time only 1/2 right since only the second part is true. FWIW #4 .....today, i am using an 1895 14 inch Reed lathe w/ 9 thou bed wear & 24 thou shims in the t/stock to get it up to center, making a face plate for a Barnes 9X22, from a ford F150 front rotor, & i have to adjust the xslide gibbs when i use the extremes of the Xslide ...... so what !! best wishes doc ------- Split nut lever removal on 618 mk2 [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: "vachss" Frederick.Vachssx~xxboeing.com Date: Mon Aug 27, 2012 9:10 am ((PDT)) Hi, I'm repairing an Atlas 10100 (618 mk2) lathe and have found the split nut lever on the right side of the carriage (part # M6-29) is very stiff (almost immovable). I'd like to pull it and clean/reassemble the cam to which it attaches (part # M6-38), but can't figure out how to separate the two. I've removed the carriage assembly from the lathe and the split nuts, guide and ball and spring assembly from the carriage, but can't see an easy way to pull the lever off the cam. I'd appreciate any hints before I do something stupid and just drive the cam out of the lever with a hammer and punch. Thanks a lot, Fred Vachss ------- Re: Split nut lever removal on 618 mk2 Posted by: "Guenther Paul" paulguenterx~xxatt.net Date: Mon Aug 27, 2012 12:17 pm ((PDT)) Fred Get some automatic transmission fluid and acetone (paint stores have it), mix it 50-50 and soak the pin that holds the lever. It should be easy if you have the front apron off. Have fun GP ------- Gib problems [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: "John Wright" ov10facx~xxcox.net Date: Wed Aug 29, 2012 11:03 am ((PDT)) The gib on the "tool post slide", at least that's what I think its called, will not stay put and when I tighten it down it binds in the last inch or so of travel. I have been working on it for a few hours and can't seem to get it to work. Oh yea, model number 109-21270. My suspicion is that the gib is not original. That the original had small holes/indentations to allow the set screws to catch and hold it laterally while allowing for minor tension adjustments. If that's the case I may replace the steel that I have with a brass gib and drill some indentations. Brass on steel is much better than steel on steel anyway, Anyone have any ideas or suggestions? Thanks, I have started a renovation so now's the time to make these kinds of improvements. I don't have a mill, but I do know someone who might be able to make some parts for me out of brass. ------- Re: Gib problems Posted by: "Scott Henion" shenionx~xxshdesigns.org Date: Wed Aug 29, 2012 12:11 pm ((PDT)) I replaced the gibbs on mine with brass. It reduced the friction considerably. Also make brass clamps that hold the front of the carriage. I also made a brass clamp for the rear: http://shdesigns.org/Lathe/lathe2.shtml It had two hold-down screws, one on each end that made it much easier to adjust. The gibbs screws tend to work loose. I removed them and nicked the threads with a chisel. A better option is to get longer screws and add lock nuts. More tips on the 109 lathe users group: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AA_109_Lathe_Users_Group/ (this group is more for Atlas lathes.) There is a text file in the group files area that has tips on improvements. Scott G. Henion Craftsman 12x36 lathe: http://shdesigns.org/Craftsman12x36 ------- Re: Gib problems Posted by: "jerdalx~xxsbcglobal.net" Date: Wed Aug 29, 2012 6:14 pm ((PDT)) There are two issues..... 1) the gib not staying "put". 2) getting tight at one end of travel. The 109 isn't the best machine to spend a lot of effort on, but it is the machine you have, and as a former 109.20630 owner, I can testify that they DO "work"..... within their fairly significant limitations. For item "1", all you really need to do is to have the screws "mark" the gib where they hit, possibly by coating the gib with magic marker, and then tightening the screws on it with it back in place..... that should mark the spots. Then all you need to do is dimple the spots with a drill press enough to give the end of the screws a place to enter and hold the gib from sliding out. The flatted recess is nice, but is not really required. For item "2", the cause is probably wear, and the cure is re-scraping the unit. I wouldn't bother doing that for that machine, frankly. Probably if you dimple the gib so that you don't have to tighten down the gibs that tight, you will not have trouble with tightness at the end of travel. JT ------- Re: Gib problems Posted by: "wa5cabx~xxcs.com" Date: Wed Aug 29, 2012 7:34 pm ((PDT)) The "tool post slide" is perhaps more commonly called the "compound" or perhaps "compound slide" if you are only talking about the upper part. I've never owned or even seen one of the 109-nnnnn machines. But the general method of ensuring that gibs don't move independant of the assembly that they are installed in is to spot cut the outside surface of the gib with an end mill. If yours aren't, first paint and mark the outside surface of the gib as mentioned in the previous msg. Use an end mill the same diameter as the gib screws. Then on a drill press or vertical milling machine table, clamp the gib at approximately the same angle as it sits at in the compound (or carriage or whatever else it is to be installed in). Line up the milling cutter with each mark in the marking ink (magic marker) and cut down to a semicircle or slightly below. When all of the marks are cut, reinstall the gib and tighten the gib screws into the cutaway holes, adjust them for best fit, and lock the lock nuts. I have no basis for an opinion between brass and steel for gibs except that all of the gibs in my 1980 or 81 Atlas 3996 are all original and all still good. Robert D ------- Re: Gib problems Posted by: "Doc" n8as1x~xxaol.com docn8as Date: Wed Aug 29, 2012 9:09 pm ((PDT)) look at the end of your gib screws ...if pointed, a drill bit may provide the best fit, if flat, cupped or a "dog" end, a recess wud be preferred... if not an option, a larger drill bit to allow the screws to be captured, or point up the screws......i dont see a necessity for replacing the gibs ....cast iron sliding against steel are proper disssimilar sufraces.... the steel counter shaft on my circa 1920 mill is still doing fine in cast iron bearings ...1-1/4 shaft has 5 thou clearance, probably 2-3 thou when new. best wishes doc ------- yet another newcomer [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: "feldfamx~xxsnet.net" Date: Thu Aug 30, 2012 4:37 pm ((PDT)) Hi, My name is Glenn I am a newcomer to the group and just wanted to let you all know a little bit about me. First of all I live in Connecticut and am a retired machinist (36 years). I love being retired but I also love to tinker with things to make them operate like new. I recently purchased a craftsman model 101.07403 lathe (I got it really cheap). It runs and has the original cast iron stand and some tooling came with it. 3 jaw 4" chuck, 4 jaw 6" chuck a couple of face plates dead centers, a full set of change gears, dozens of cutting tools, a bunch of collets (no draw bar), a tailstock and a couple boxes of small stuff I haven't even looked at yet. The lathe is pretty old I haven't figured what year is. The machine has Babbitt headstock bearings and will handle a 12 inch diameter (6 inch swing). The Compound and apron are cast as one piece, It has a 5/8 lead screw, the ways are 3/8" thick, the bed full length is 42" about 24" between centers, has no quick change gearbox and the apron has no provisions for a cross feed. The drive section has Back gearing and a craftsman 1/2 hp motor powers this beauty. The machine was covered with hardened oil and grease along with a few pounds of caked on sawdust coating the entire machine. I know that somewhere beneath that nasty exterior beats the heart of classic Iron. Over the next few weeks I intend to return this machine back into great running condition and could use your advice on things. Here are a few things I need to get started with: Locating an Operator's manual / tech manual (I do have a newer parts breakdown for this model but lots of things don't seem to match.) Matching original paint color recommendations. It is a very dark grey with almost a bluish tint. Would like to find aerosol type paint just to touch up the few bare spots. Mostly the original paint looks great. Any tips on rebabitting the headstock What year this machine was made? - Serial stamped on way is #31803 model 101.07403 I don't have much cash to spend on this project but I do have the time and desire. Any help / advice would be greatly appreciated. Glenn ------- Re: yet another newcomer Posted by: "Scott Henion" shenionx~xxshdesigns.org Date: Thu Aug 30, 2012 4:53 pm ((PDT)) I have a 101.07403. It has 3/4" feed screw, Timken head bearings and power cross feed. Are you sure about the model number? I wonder if the bed was taken from a later model. Craftsman had a habit of changing the model # when any of the parts changed. The parts list for the '04703 is on the home page in the link on my sig. It does not show a babbit head or the old-style carriage. As to the date, the power feed model was introduced in 1939. The "Atlas Lathe Operations Manual and Machinists Tables" is the book the came with the lathes. It is available from Clausing Industrial. http://www.lathes.co.uk has the history of the Atlas and Craftsman modes (I suspect it is a 1936-1938 version.) Post some pictures in the forum photo gallery. I'd be interested in what you have. Scott G. Henion Craftsman 12x36 lathe: http://shdesigns.org/Craftsman12x36 ------- Re: yet another newcomer Posted by: "Doc" n8as1x~xxaol.com docn8as Date: Thu Aug 30, 2012 5:43 pm ((PDT)) unless the babbit bearings are shot, i see no need to replace...the ones in y 1895 14 in Reed are still doing fine & in HSM use........there is a shim pac when you remove the bearing caps to allow a tighter running fit ...(abt one thou per inch)...the really weak point on the 5/8 l/screw no power x feed lathe is the transverse gear case .....all later models do not fit & no new parts available ..when wrecked the lathe is ususally scrapped out ......i started to mill a gear case for one that i had, & decided the rest of the lathe was not worth it..... came out of a generator repair shop where they never thot abt lubing the bed..... spindle t/stock & back gears are gone, but most of the rest is still in barn rusting away abt 14 years ago clausing sent me a zerox copy of a parts list ...USABLE BUT HARD TO READ..dont really think another copy wud be readable best wishes doc ------- Re: yet another newcomer Posted by: "wa5cabx~xxcs.com" Date: Thu Aug 30, 2012 9:39 pm ((PDT)) Glen, Welcome aboard. FWIW, although there are quite a few active British Commonwealth members on here, swing is most commonly given in the US practice, diameter of largest part that will clear the bed. And we no longer quibble over the spelling of vise/vice. :-) As a couple of other members have already mentioned, your machine may have had either the bed or the nameplate swapped. The 101.07403 (final Change Gear model) has Timken bearings, a separate apron and saddle casting, power cross feed and a 3/4" diameter lead screw. Correlation between Craftsman Model Numbers and Catalog Numbers is difficult because from year to year there were changes that resulted in Model Number changes without the Catalog Number changing. So absent legible manuals, it is difficult to use the catalogs to ID a Model. As best I have determined so far, from first to last of the Change Gear only 12" models, there are twelve Model Numbers: 101.07360 through 101.07363 101.07380 through 101.07383 101.07400 through 101.07403 And each model was made in 18", 24", 30" and 36" (i.e., the Catalog Number, not the Model Number, defined the bed length) I have parts lists on all 12 Models, but the drawings are so bad that I have yet to figure out at which Model Number the power cross feed appeared or the lead screw diameter changed. The only decently legible manuals that have turned up so far are for 101.07403 and later. I haven't had time to work on the project lately but will bet back to it. I can say that it appears that 101.07403 was the first Model with the two-piece carriage casting. That from the catalog changes from year to year, the first three models of each group of four were run through quickly. And that during any given year, two and sometimes three Models were being sold concurrently. But I'm inclined to make a quick guess that with the 5/8" dia. lead screw, yours falls in the first group of four. If you could post some photos to the group's Photos section, that would help. One difference that's obvious in the late 1930's and early 1940's catalog photos is variations in gear or belt guard shape (or for that matter, presence). Robert D. ------- Re: yet another newcomer Posted by: "Raymond" jwreyx~xxusa.net Date: Fri Aug 31, 2012 9:03 am ((PDT)) Hello Glenn and welcome to the group! You said your lathe has a single piece carriage/apron casting so I would venture to say the bed (or at least the name plate) has been changed. The 101.07403 had a two-piece carriage with a 3/4" leadscrew and power crossfeed. My 12x24 came to me with a single piece carriage/apron casting, a 5/8" lead screw, no power cross-feed, and a Zamak compound. Photos of this lathe can be found in the photos section of this forum: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/atlas_craftsman/photos/alb um/1494366852/pic/list With considerable research I determined my lathe to be somewhere near the 101.0736x series. Only the change gear cover differs significantly from the parts illustrated in the parts lists for that series. (BTW, parts diagrams for these models can still be viewed at www.sears/partsdirect.com ) About Babbit headstocks and all carriage assemblies: There is a set of stacked shims under the bearing caps on the headstock. Each stacked shim is composed of five layers of .002 brass shim stock soldered together with very soft solder. Adjustment of bearing-spindle clearance is done by removing the bearing cap, then removing one layer of shim at a time from one side of the bearing only, reinstaling the bearing cap and torquing the cap screws and checking for fit. There should be zero looseness or play, up and down or sideways at each bearing, with slight drag when turning the spinde by hand. I initially thought I was going to need to pour new babbit but found removal of one layer of shim only from one side only of each front and rear bearing cap was sufficient to remove the play in the spindle. Checking the shims while out I found was the first owner to do this on this machine meaning there are 9 more opportunities to remove a single layer at a time on each front and rear bearing caps. For a machine that was 74 years old when I acquired it in 2009 I figure it still has more than 600 years life in the babbit bearings! The carriages on these lathes are similarly shimmed with five layers of .002 brass shim stock on each side of the ways. Peeling a single layer requires seperating the layer to be removed wth sharp instrument such as an exacto knife or a sharp pointed tweezer. Paint color: If all you want is to touch up and get a closest match see if you can scratch off sizeable chip from the lathe and take it to a local paint store, ask if they can mix a small can of oil-based paint to mnatch, then brush it on with a cheap artist's brush. Trying to match old colors from a rattle can generally does not provide good results. General cleaning of crusty oil and dirt: I am happiest with K1 Kerosene. It cleans the crud very effectivy, does not harm the paint, and leaves a very thin coatng protecting the metal from exposure to atmospheric oxygen and humidity. Although it is about $10 a gallon at the hardware store, in my area it is available at selected HESS oil convienience stores for about 1/3 that price. I bring my own approved container. After restoration (cleaning, new paint and lubrication and adjustments) I "upgraded" it by modifying a used 3/4" leadscrew to fit the drive gear stud, added a two-piece carriage/apron assembly (with cross-feed drive gearing and half nuts assembly) to gain power crossfeed, replaced the compound with a newer iron casting, and fabricated my own leadscrew support bearing from steel and inserted oilite bronze bearings. Finally I replaced the two-arm change-gear "banjo" with a three-arm affair to gain additional feed rate and thread ranges. Only the leadscrew required any machining (and some sort of replacement support bearing) to make it fit. Everything else was a direct fit! I am more than pleased with the end result! I am a short distance east of Worscester Massachusetts and have acquired a growing supply of replacement parts I can trade or sell. Let me know if you need any parts or assistance. Regards, raymond ------- Re: Tailstock Alignment On 10F Lathe [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: "Eggleston Lance" wheezer606x~xxverizon.net Date: Mon Sep 3, 2012 8:10 pm ((PDT)) On Sep 3, 2012, bigcheif4 wrote: > So, I'm beginning to think that my problem is more than likely my spindle bearings. My lathe uses the Timken type bearings. OK, tested the tailstock ram today, and it shows dropping by .0015 at the tip. In other words, if I have the ram extended all the way out, it drops .0015 at the tip. < 1- Spindle bearings are not related. 2- If the TS ram dips 0.0015" when extended, that means the front of the tailstock sits lower than the back, due to wear. 3- the TS has two parts, upper and lower. 4- separate the parts, clean everything, reassemble with a 0.0015" shim between the two halves, along the front edge. I use old feeler gauge blades for shims. 5- remeasure the ram, both in and extended. adjust shims as needed. 6- My TS clamp didn't hold very well. I removed the clamp and took a cleaning cut off the clamping surfaces on the mill. Works MUCH better. The clamp was belled and only touching at the edges. 7- Use a washer and a spring between the TS and the clamp. When the nut is loosened, the spring pushes the clamp down, releases quicker. 8- I bought a flat ratchet wrench to keep permanently on the TS clamp nut. Works great. $6. lance ------- Re: Craftsman 109.21270 tail stock sliding Posted by: "none" garybauer46x~xxyahoo.com Date: Mon Sep 3, 2012 11:06 pm ((PDT)) After reading some elegant solutions to the rough sliding tailstock... I took a close look at my Craftsman 12x36 bed underneath the tailstock where it clamps. Mine is milled fully though it does have a bit of paint over- spray (my fault). To smooth this area if needed I suggest using a large flat file from the end of the bed. Turn the bed up-side-down to ease the filing. The metal is simple gray cast iron, non hardened. A fresh file does help. Once smoothed and lapped perhaps.. apply some oil. Check the clamp plate under the tailstock for fit and finish. It may need a bit of filing/ lapping also. The spring added to the tail stock clamp bolt/assembly is an excellent idea. A break here while I filed and smoothed that portion on my 12x36 lathe bed. Then added a bit of oil to the surfaces. There was quite a bit of paint build-up. Gary in AZ ------- Rack Locator Pin Removal Strategy [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: "geoffrey_in_thailand" lovex~xxcvbt-web.org Date: Mon Sep 10, 2012 6:58 pm ((PDT)) I'm having difficulty removing the rack locator pins. Can you suggest a good step by step strategy? It looks to me that the pins are brazed onto the rack. Why would they do that? It is difficult to get a punch and hammer in between the ways to knock out the pins (attached to the rack). We tried to pry the rack off/out using a knife as a wedge; it didn't work. I think I'll start by cleaning off a bit of old oil and grime. Also, there are shims between the top off the rack and the ways. Why? I assume I should put them back in their same locations. We took the screws out and the rack just just bends/flops. We supported it with some wood blocks. It was really hard to get the screws back in. We had to push the rack up hard against the shims. I found that the feed hiccups because of the damaged rack teeth. We want to cut threads so we need to repair the rack teeth. Thanks ------- Re: Rack Locator Pin Removal Strategy Posted by: "Guenther Paul" paulguenterx~xxatt.net Date: Mon Sep 10, 2012 7:26 pm ((PDT)) If you're talking about the rack that the traverse gear runs, it should be easy to remove after the screws are out. I had no problems getting it off. Just pry gently. If you need a new used rack I have one I can send you. Let me know. GP ------- Re: Rack Locator Pin Removal Strategy Posted by: "Raymond" jwreyx~xxusa.net Date: Mon Sep 10, 2012 7:36 pm ((PDT)) The rack locating pins are not brazed, soldered or welded into place, at least not by the original manufacturer. The pins are tapered with three grooves along their length. They are installed with a small mallet and drift, essentially tapped in so as to grip the rack and bed tightly together. For removal patience is key. Soak them with penatrating oil: WD40, KROIL, etc, for a couple of days before proceeding. If you can't get in behind the pins with a small bolt rigged to act like a miniature jack to push them out from the back side, use a strong but very thin pry bar to pry the rack from the bed. Patience here is key. You may need to use a small mallet to tap a thin blade between the rack and the bed, a little at a time, until you gain enough of a gap to insert a slightly thicker pry bar. Again, patience is key, little by little, keeping all soaked with penetrating oil. Because the pins are tapered, once they start to move they will move fast and easy. I have done this. raymond ------- Re: Rack Locator Pin Removal Strategy Posted by: "geoffrey_in_thailand" lovex~xxcvbt-web.org Date: Mon Sep 10, 2012 8:36 pm ((PDT)) Thanks Raymond, I'll start with cleaning with kerosene. Then WD40; spraying the pins front and back and above the rack at the 2 pin points. I don't yet see how to get to the inside of the forward pin which is located under the head stock. From what you say the tapered grooved pins have the small end on the inside of the ways. They must be removed from the inside out. It almost sounds as if the pins are a use-once item and should be replaced. I like the idea of using a small bolt as a jack. I imagine I'd take my 1/8" drift and set it in the hole and then place the bolt head against it and the nut on the inside of the other side of the bed. Then I could unscrew the bolt head driving the pin out. I expect that any size bolt could be used but the bigger the better. The length is important. How did they make such a small tapered hole? ------- Re: Rack Locator Pin Removal Strategy Posted by: "wa5cabx~xxcs.com" wa5cabx~xxcs.com Date: Mon Sep 10, 2012 8:50 pm ((PDT)) The hole isn't (wasn't originally) tapered. The pin is. But just slightly. Yes, it would be a good idea to procure new pins. Clausing should still have them. See my earlier post about using two pieces of all-thread, two coupling nuts, two hex nuts and a piece of drill rod to make a remover. It will help if you turn the machine over so that you can more easily get at the pin at the left end. As much as I like WD-40 for drying out distributor caps and cleaning wrinkle finish paint, it is only kerosene in aerosol form. Not a very good penetrant. Robert D. ------- Re: Rack Locator Pin Removal Strategy Posted by: "geoffrey_in_thailand" lovex~xxcvbt-web.org Date: Mon Sep 10, 2012 9:31 pm ((PDT)) Dear Robert, I think I can find new 1/8" taper pins here in Thailand. I've searched on wa5cab and all-thread and not been able to identify the post you refer to. Can you give me another clue how to find it? An 1/8" drift and a bolt won't do it huh? I'm hesitant to turn the lathe over as I've leveled it with a borrowed machinist's level. I can do that again if I need to. What's a better penetrant than WD40? Sonax? ATF+acetone? Thanks for your help! [:)] ------- NOTE TO FILE: Of course we have covered penetrating products many times before in our file Lubricants General. ATF (Automotive Transmission Fluid) plus acetone can work very well, as do some commercial penetrating oils. ------- Adjusting the rack height. [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: "geoffrey_in_thailand" lovex~xxcvbt-web.org te: Mon Sep 10, 2012 10:02 pm ((PDT)) We're getting ready to do some threading. We noticed that worn teeth on the rack make the pinion gear stumble. This will make for imperfect threads. We need to use this section of the rack because of the set up. Also, we noticed that the saddle was sticking some near the headstock. When we scraped the ways to remove bumps, the sticking was reduced but still present. We scraped more (aiming at removing bumps) and didn't get much more improvement. We also noticed that the saddle also stuck some near the far end of the lathe. We cleaned and scraped the sides and the bottoms of the ways. There was little change in the sticking. In preparation to repair some teeth on the rack by brazing, I set Noy, our faithful village housewife, to cleaning the rack. In doing so she made the suggestion that it is the pinion gear on the rack that is causing the sticking. That is, the rack is worn more in the working area than towards the head stock or tail end. When the pinion gear gets in a section of non-worn rack teeth it puts a lot of pressure on the gear shaft and gears and makes the saddle "stick." We've also noticed that there are shims above the rack. Is the rack really adjustable? If so, can we raise the unworn parts and lower the worn sections? I wouldn't expect the rack to be adjustable because it is pinned and screwed. But who knows? Why would there be shims there? ------- Re: Adjusting the rack height. Posted by: "Guenther Paul" paulguenterx~xxatt.net Date: Tue Sep 11, 2012 3:31 am ((PDT)) The rack has nothing to do with cutting threads. You may want to check your traverse gear, the housing may be cracked; that is a common problem. GP ------- Re: Adjusting the rack height. Posted by: "anthrhodesx~xxaol.com" Date: Tue Sep 11, 2012 2:11 pm ((PDT)) GP, I almost made the same remark. Later he said that, as the carriage traverses while being driven by the leadscrew, the carriage gear hits a bad spot in the rack and gets deflected which affects the screw being cut. It sounds as if he has it correct, that the rack needs to be repaired or the problem moved to a location where it doesn't cause a problem for him in the section of traverse in which he's working. Anthony Berkeley, Calif. ------- Re: Adjusting the rack height. Posted by: "wa5cabx~xxcs.com" wa5cabx~xxcs.com Date: Tue Sep 11, 2012 9:22 am ((PDT)) If by "sticking" you mean that it takes more force (torque) to turn the handwheel when the carriage is near the headstock than it does when the carriage is near the middle of the bed, but it still moves smoothly, this is probably caused by wear on the front and rear surfaces of the ways. If you temporarily loosen the four carriage gib screws (on the back of the saddle), movement should become easier. This is unfortunately normal for a flat bed lathe. Varnish from dried oil can build up on the surfaces over the years but from what you have written, I think you have already removed that. The only real cure is to have the bed re-ground. As that probably isn't an option for you, you will just have to live with it. As to the shims between the rack and the bottom of the front way, according to all of the parts lists for 10" and 12" that I have just looked at, there should not be any. My machine, an Atlas Model 3996 (12X36) has none. As to why they are there, I don't really know. Perhaps the rack was replaced many years ago with one that was not the same height. In any case, the only shims that I find on any of the parts lists are those under the front and rear of the saddle. The purpose of these is to adjust the engagement between the rack and the carriage driving pinion (gear). After you have successfully removed the rack and repaired the damaged teeth, I would reattach it with the mystery shims back in their original positions and check that the rack is straight. Then if necessary, adjust the pinion engagement by adding or subtracting saddle shims. The parts lists all say that these shims are 0.002" and 0.003" thick. And that the front and rear ones are not the same part numbers. A few late Atlas parts lists show a third shim but do not show the thickness. I suspect that it is fairly thick and was added to reduce the number of thin shims required. If you do have to make this adjustment, it will probably be to add shims. What I would do is to make two thicker ones which will give you some of the 2 and 3 thousandth shims to "play with". Robert D ------- Re: Adjusting the rack height. Posted by: "geoffrey_in_thailand" lovex~xxcvbt-web.org Date: Tue Sep 11, 2012 9:54 pm ((PDT)) Well, it's interesting that I have the only Atlas 3991 12" lathe that has thick shims on top of it's rack. I don't think that shimming the rack unevenly would work to help gear engagement where it is skipping. The teeth need to mesh. I will try to take the shims out where it is sticking and see if it makes a difference. I'd like to try pushing the saddle by hand to see if the resistance/ sticking is different then when moving it with the handwheel. I don't think it will make any difference because the rack and pinion are still engaged. I measured the width across the ways in all the places I could and it is even. I used a vernier calliper that measures to 0.02 mm. Thanks for letting me know about the shims under the saddle. I might get to them eventually. How can I know how much to adjust? Is it a matter of feel? Thanks very much. ------- Re: Adjusting the rack height. Posted by: "wa5cabx~xxcs.com" Date: Tue Sep 11, 2012 10:53 pm ((PDT)) You have a much newer machine than I had assumed. Aside from the power cross-feed control and the rack shims, it's identical to my 3996. Do you have the instruction manual? If not, check in the Files sections of both lists. The equivalent Craftsman Model Number is 101.28970. And except for the crossfeed control, the ones on 3996, 101.28990, and several others will work. I would suggest that you remove the rack shims and properly shim the carriage but if you do, the rack mounting screw holes and the taper pin will not line up. And it wouldn't fix the rack anyway. Once you get the pin out, would flipping the rack end for end temporarily fix the bad teeth problem? You would have to drill a new hole in the rack for the taper pin. Without the taper pin, there may be enough give in the screw holes that the rack can move. Did you loosen the gib screws and see whether that reduced the carriage sticking? I doubt you can measure the bed width accurately enough with a vernier caliper to find spots that are high enough to cause a sticking problem. I'll just re-write what I wrote earlier about a pin jack. The parts you would need to make the screw jack I suggested are a length of something like 3/8" or 1/2" (or metric near equivalent) diameter threaded rod (all-thread), two regular hex nuts and two coupling nuts to fit. Coupling nuts are long hex nuts, typically between 3/4" and 1" long in this diameter range. Plus you will need a short piece of drill rod just slightly smaller than 3/16" diameter (so that it will not stick in the hole in the bed). Cut the threaded rod into two pieces whose total length plus the length of the exposed drill rod (see next sentence) is say 1/4" to 1/2" less than the distance between the insides of the bed at the pin hole. Drill a hole the same diameter as the drill rod into one end of one of the short pieces of all-thread. Depth of hole should be such that enough of the drill rod is visible to just go completely through the side of the bed. Run one of the hex nuts onto each piece of all-thread. Run one coupling nut all the way onto the all-thread without the drill rod.and run the hex nut down to but not touching it. Put some oil inside the second coupling nut and run it onto the plain end of the second all-thread a distance of four or five turns. Tighten (lock) the hex nut securely against it. Run the locked coupling nut all the way onto the first all-thread. When you put the jack between the ways, put the drill rod into the taper pin hole and finger tighten the loose coupling nut against the back of the bed. Lock it with the hex nut. Use one open end wrench to hold the coupling nut at the back of the bed and a second one to turn the other coupling nut. Actually, if you have a pair of the correct size ratcheting box end wrenches, or one fixed and one ratcheting, those would be easier to use up under the headstock but you will need to put them on the jack before mounting the jack between the ways. Gear mesh instructions are given in the manual. They are actually written for the gears on the left end of the headstock, but are perfectly applicable to the carriage drive gear. Robert D. ------- Re: Adjusting the rack height. Posted by: "wa5cabx~xxcs.com" Date: Fri Sep 14, 2012 10:56 pm ((PDT)) In a message dated 09/14/2012, lovex~xxcvbt-web.org writes: > So, I went to an auto parts store and described what I needed to make a pin jack. He pulled out a clutch adjustment rod from an Isuzu truck. It looks like it will fit the bill. I can't find any drill rod so I'm going to waste a drill. I thought that the pins were an 1/8 but 3/32 sounds better. I'd like to know why I might have to redrill the pin holes. Isn't the drilling pattern symetrical? I am going to try to swap ends of the rack. < I wouldn't have gone to an auto parts store as they generally only have specific dedicated pieces for specific vehicles. But if what you found will work, hopefully you'll only need it once!!! I think that the first time I wrote the screed I mentioned cutting off a drill bit but forgot to do so the second time. According to the parts lists and drawings for the late model machines the taper pin is a 3/16" x 5/8". And there is only one at the headstock end. That matches my 3996 and is why I made the comment about drilling the new hole. From earlier comments, earlier model machines had a pin at both ends of the rack (and I don't see any logical reason for that). If yours does and if the drill pattern is symmetrical (I obviously don't have an example to look at), then you won't have to drill a new pin hole. But if the screws are flat head, as they are on my machine, then you will still have to countersink the holes on the (currently) back side of the rack. You never did describe where the shims were. So I assumed that they were full length. If they aren't, then you may be able to remove them and still get the screws to fit. Robert D. ------- Ways wearing? [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: "brewerpaul" brewerpaulx~xxaol.com Date: Sat Sep 29, 2012 6:00 pm ((PDT)) Might as well ask another question, although I'm not sure I want the answer :-{ I think the ways on my 101, 6" lathe must be wearing down a bit. My carriage cranks nice and easily in the middle of its travel, but over at the far right it's pretty snug. Left is OK too. The ways on this lathe are flat. Assuming they are worn, how can I get them re-ground? How expensive is this likely to be? So far it's not a problem -- my machining is fine, so I'll probably sit tight until it becomes an issue, but I'd like to plan ahead. Thanks. ------- Re: Ways wearing? Posted by: "Scott Henion" shenionx~xxshdesigns.org Date: Sat Sep 29, 2012 6:14 pm ((PDT)) You might try cleaning the underside of the ways. Mine was real tight out of the center. I found there was lots of dried oil under the ways. I used a razor blade pulled along the underside to scrape the crud off. It was noticeably better. Brake cleaner took the rest off. Scott G. Henion Craftsman 12x36 lathe: http://shdesigns.org/Craftsman12x36 ------- Atlas 618 Rebuild [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: "glenntober" glenntx~xxpalmnet.net Date: Tue Nov 13, 2012 9:08 am ((PST)) Seeing some recent posts on Atlas restoration, I decided to post some experiences to date for my project to rebuild a recently purchased Atlas 618. Readers can view my photo album, 'glennt photos'. I purchased my 618 for $350. After reading a lot about what to look for in a used lathe, my inspection of the condition of this unit convinced me to take a chance on buying it. There was some slight wear noticeable on the ways, a slight amount of carriage play, but all in all, very slight IMHO. I was not able to run the machine prior to purchase so I took a big chance on motors, bearings and completeness of all the parts. I know know that I did not get a lot of accessories for my money, but there was one three way chuck, a basic tool holder and HSS and what appeared to be a complete set of change gears. The motor bench ran at time of purchase. After purchase, the motor started smoking and I got a big scare on this item. Lucky me, a local motor rebuilder reassured me the motor was OK but the problem was with the reversing switch. No charge for the checkout and I fixed the burned out contact on the reversing switch by soldering a short piece of solid copper wire over the burn hole inside the switch (these switches are expensive to buy). I decided right a way that to better learn about the lathe and just because it's my nature that I was going to tear it down and clean rebuild it. Probably not totally necessary but it has made me feel good! Since I have the Timken bearing version of the lathe, I decided right off to spend a modest amount of money and replace the spindle bearings. There is no point in doing just the cages so I also took on the removal of the cones as well. Removal of the spindle was greatly aided by a step-by-step instruction set I found on the web and the fact I had a decent copy of the owners manual with the parts explosion diagrams. The three jaw chuck was pretty stuck on the spindle shaft. I just left it that way until I had the spindle completely removed. Then I bought a cheap, small keyed pulley from Ace Hardware, assembled it to the spindle shaft and put a pipe wrench on the throw-away pulley OD instead of gripping any expensive lathe gear or shaft surface. The chuck broke loose with a good tug. Although I may regret this step later on, I decided I could not safely remove the spindle bearing cones without first separating the spindle casting from the lathe bed (four screws). I have no bearing press and breaking the spindle housing was a huge concern of mine, but in the end, all went well. In order to pull the cones it is necessary to grip a very small clearance diameter that the seated cones offer when fully seated. I constructed a poor man's mandrel (see photos) that did the trick (although just barely since the working edge was aluminum and not steel as it should have been). I cold-soaked the whole assembly in the freezer first and warmed the housing to help in pulling the cones. Reinstalling new cones went well but I was careful to use a supporting block of wood between inside faces on the spindle housing to prevent breakage (photo). A PVC fitting served as a mandrel (photo). Again, I cold-soaked the cones and heated the housing to aid in tapping the cones back into their clearance bores (remember, I have no bearing press!). I used a simple method to first degrease parts, followed by a thorough steel wool clean up (medium and fine). I spray painted parts using a two tone grey paint (inside darker than outside). I used Clausen, whom I highly recommend, for needed replacement parts and some accessories I never got in the original purchase. I am at about $550 for total cost to date. Everything went back together smoothly and I did a coarse alignment and turned some sample pieces on my new looking lathe. I am currently planning out how to do a finish installation, and a better setup and alignment of the rebuilt lathe. Perhaps this will be the most challenging task! ------- [atlas_craftsman] Re: Leadscrew dificult to turn by hand and will not turn under power Posted by: "anthrhodesx~xxaol.com" Date: Sat Dec 1, 2012 9:23 pm ((PST)) Dec 1, 2012 9:46 am (PST), mmcglensey writes: "I have an Atlas/Craftsman 101-07301 6" lathe. I got if from a friend who did care for it. I changed the gearing to allow me to cut a 10 tpi thread. (Note: This is the first time I have tried this) After getting the proper gears on and meshed I found that the drive belt slipped on the pulley. Invetigating I found that if the screw gear was removed the gear train turned easily. Then I tried turning the leadscrew by hand. Very difficult to do. Tried lubing everything I could find but still same result. I believe that the leadscrew should rotate freely in its bearings without the half nuts closed. Is this correct? If so how should I go about fixing this problem?" Marty, In my opinion the binding is caused by too much pinch on the left leadscrew bearing when tightening the banjo pinch bolt. The bearing is just zamac and has a fairly thin wall. With the pinch you are reducing the ID of the bushing. There is a conflict here. The banjo bolt has to be tight enough so that the banjo isn't kicked away by the action of the end gears but must not get so much squeeze that it compresses the bushing. Without closing the split nuts, engage the end gearing with the stud and pinch the banjo fairly lightly, then run the spindle and leadscrew for at least 30 seconds to a minute to see if the gears will remain engaged. Feel the bushing to see if it gets hot. Presuming it passes both of these tests, move the carriage to the tailstock end and engage the split nuts. Let it traverse the carriage most of the length of the bed to see if the gears will stay engaged and also check the bushing for heat build up. Now, if you have a piece of scrap for the purpose, try making a single pass of the cutter at normal depth of cut for about one inch if possible. If the tests fail, due to the gears disengaging themselves, tighten the banjo pinch bolt a minimum amount and try again. If they fail due to heat build up in the bearing which causes you concern try slacking the pinch bolt a minimum amount and try again. (By the way, don't forget to oil BOTH leadscrew bushings!) Keep making these tests until you find the minimum pinch that will reliably keep the gears meshed but not cause excessive heat in the bushing. Measure the pinch gap and make yourself a spacer which you can fit by taking out the pinch bolt, slopping in the spacer, and reinstalling the bolt. You should now be able to tighten the banjo securely without concern over too much pinch. Having done this with gearing for a coarse pitch (1 or 10 TPI), check again with gearing for a very fine pitch which has more gears in the train. The reason for testing at both coarse and fine feeds is coarse feeds require more power to drive them but so do extra gear interfaces. If you get this resolved so that it works at both coarse and fine feeds you should be able to use the leadscrew for any threading or power feeds without concern. Then the only thing you will have to take care with is setting up the correct gear trains for whatever feed you are trying to accomplish. Hope this is useful to you. Anthony Berkeley, Calif. ------- Re: Leadscrew dificult to turn by hand and will not turn under power Posted by: "Ken Harrington" dreamcraftersx~xxmsn.com Date: Mon Dec 3, 2012 9:07 am ((PST)) Hello all, I'm new to the group and have been enjoying the info on the site. I recently got an Atlas 101.07301 that had sat in a old shop for some thirty years unused except to face off an occasional part. It was very well presrved due mostly to the original owner never stripped off the shipping oil and it was here in Arizona where there is little humidity. What I found with my lead screw was that the oil in the bearings had turned to varnish and seized them up. I soaked them for two days with seafoam penitrating oil, then wrapped the shaft with a chunk of leather and grabbed it with vice grips, started with just vibrating it then slowly started to turn it. Eventually got it free'd up, then I removed it and cleaned it out and relubed it. It works very well now. I also discvered there was a lot of junk embedded in the threads of the screw as well that needed to be removed so the half nut would properly engage. HTH, Ken H. ------- Re: Leadscrew dificult to turn by hand and will not turn under power Posted by: "Jon Elson" elsonx~xxpico-systems.com Date: Mon Dec 3, 2012 10:12 am ((PST)) Yes, due to the design of the Atlas, the screw gets chips all over it. Every once in a while, you need to run the lathe and use a screwdriver wrapped with a paper towel or similar device to brush all the chips out of the threads. The keyway in the leadscrew makes this a bit more difficult, but you can do it in a couple of minutes. Jon ------- Re: Leadscrew dificult to turn by hand and will not turn under power Posted by: "ncsailrman" ncsailrmanx~xxhotmail.com Date: Wed Dec 19, 2012 5:19 pm ((PST)) Hi, My 6x18 Atlas/Craftsman, bought used last year, had the same issue when I first tried to use it, and it was obviously not maintained per the schedule in the manual. I lubed the lead screw carrier/bearings oil holes per the manual, but it remained tight. It was very easy to remove both carriers from the lathe bed casting, but getting the right one off the end of the lead screw itself was difficult as it was bound/gummed up with what I'm guessing was some combination of oxidized grease, metal dust and maybe even a little rust (though the exposed surfaces of the lathe were notably rust-free). Cleaning to shiny metal with solvent and a bronze shotgun bore brush, reassembly and proper lube solved all. BTW, the tailstock ram had the same issue in its bore, but with more rust, and was cleaned with progressively finer grades of wet/dry sandpaper, the bore cleaned with strips of same, taped onto a dowel, chucked in a cordless drill, and run in the bore with kerosene to wet it generously. At that point I tore the whole lathe apart down to parts and castings, and cleaned all. Glad I did as the right spindle bearing rollers were very near failure and the cage was in pieces. New bearings... Just fine now, smooth and sweet, I know it's exactly right, and also I know I can fix anything on it as needed without a worry. Hope this helps... Mike ------- Operation of Back Gears on Craftsman 12" lathe [Atlas_Craftsman] Posted by: "ml_woy" ml_woyx~xxmidtown.net Date: Thu Dec 6, 2012 5:56 pm ((PST)) I hate to say it but for the first time in 30 years I decided to use the back gears on my lathe. Well for the first time in 30 years I am having a problem keeping them engaged. Here is the situation. I first disengage spindle pulley then throw the lever to engage the back gears. Next I spin the lathe and everything seams to engage properly. Now turn on the power and the chuck spins, start to make a cut and the chuck stops! Seems the small gear and spindle pulley seperate when a load is put on the chuck. Now there is a locking collar on the shaft next to the small gear, however there is a space between it and the small gear which allows the small gear to disengage from the spindle pulley. Should that collar be up against the small gear keeping it in contact with the spindle gear? I tried loosening the two set screws in the collar and moving it, but it does not seem to want to move without some force. So before putting some mussel to it I thought I would ask the question. Another question related to the back gears is speed of turning. What gear should I be using to take a cut off of a 4" diameter section of HRS. I have tried a .005" cut, in the slowest of the front gears and the machine lock up when the tool digs in. When turning 1" stock I can usually take a .0010" - .0015" cut in the second lowest gear on the high gear set up without a problem. I hope DOC is reading the posts because I really treasure his responses. ------- Re: Operation of Back Gears on Craftsman 12" lathe Posted by: "wa5cabx~xxcs.com" Date: Thu Dec 6, 2012 9:56 pm ((PST)) ML, Doc must have made an early night of it. I've forgotten which machine you have but the answers are basically the same for all, except that the spindle shoulder is in a different location on the 618. The collar to the left of the small spindle back gear should technically be up against the spindle shoulder (i.e., moved as far to the right as it will go. And then the small gear should be moved back against the collar, putting its left face in line with the shoulder. Take a look at the cross section drawings of the headstock. One place that you will find them are in the Bulletin on removing the spindle and back gears and reassembling. If your machine is a late 12" (Craftsman Commercial or Atlas Model 3xxx) look at the 12" bulletin. If a Craftsman 101.27430/40 or earlier look at the 10" bulletin. Disengage back gears but leave the back gear to pulley lock pin pulled out. Slack the drive belt (bench models). Remove the pulley oil screw (in the second groove from the left on bench models and to the right of the right groove on cabinet models). Thoroughly oil the pulley bushings. Turn spindle by spinning chuck. Pump in some more oil. Reinstall oil screw. Loosen the set screw in the large spindle back gear. Move the large back gear, pulley and small back gear to the right to expose the spindle shoulder. While you have the small back gear and pulley separated, inspect the keys and slots for damage. If there is any significant damage, you will need to replace the damaged parts. However, you can follow the rest of the instructions and continue to use the lathe in direct drive until you can acquire the necessary part or parts. If the collar is not firmly against the shoulder, make it so. Tighten the two collar set screws. Move the small back gear against the collar. Move the pulley against the small back gear, ensuring that the keys and slots mesh. Move the large back gear against the pulley and tighten its set screw. Turn the spindle (chuck) and confirm that it turns with only slight drag without turning the pulley. The instructions don't give hard numbers but I would say .0015"-.003" clearance between pulley hub and gear hub if you want hard numbers. I couldn't guess whether the collar or the bull gear moved and caused the disengagement problem. But the above will fix it regardless. On cutting speeds - optimum cutting speeds for single point tooling of various types (HSS, carbide, etc.) and in various materials are shown in charts as surface feet per minute (SFM), which is independant of workpiece diameter. You'll find information on this in the Manual of Lathe operations and many other places. SFM x 12 = SIM (surface inches per minute) pi x workpiece Diameter (in inches) = circumference which is inches per revolution (IPR) SIM divided by IPR = RPM (revolutions per minute). Pick the pulley groove and direct/back gear combination closest under (less than) the calculated RPM. For cutting speeds, feeds and DOC (depth of cut) read the section on Machining of Materials in the MOLO. There is also a chart already calculated to give you the actually available RPM for various diameters and SFM. But with a 12" machine, you should probably be able to take at least an 0.060" cut in HRS of 4" diameter, but not in direct drive. You need 3rd speed, back gear. Or fourth speed if running with cutting fluid. I seldom cut that deep because I don't like fighting with the cutting that comes off, but the machine shouldn't stall. At 1" diameter in 2nd speed, direct drive, I have taken 1/16" or greater cuts on mild steel and 1/8" on aluminum when I was in a hurry. However, I don't get in a hurry much anymore. :-) Robert D. ------- Re: Operation of Back Gears on Craftsman 12" lathe Posted by: "Doc" n8as1x~xxaol.com docn8as Date: Fri Dec 7, 2012 3:06 pm ((PST)) thx, ML with his usual thoroughness, robert has comprehensively addressed the issue .....i have only a couple ancillary thots. a very easy to remember & adequate for hsm purposes calculation for speed is SFM X 4 / diameter. (when i was a road musician 60 years ago, we used to say "close enuf for jazz")..... i use 80 as a basic sfm for 1018 cold rolled & reasonable cast iron....& yeah, you CAN go up to 90, even 100 for cuts of a FEW thou ...so for 4 inch stock, 80 sfm x4 =320/4 =80 rpm .... for 1/2 inch stock, 80 x4 = 320 /1/2 = 320 x2/1 = 640 rpm...use a near figure of rpm on the lathe depending on depth of cut. this is conservative but w/ out cutting oil/coolant which is too messy for me to fool with near always, it is best to err on the slow side ....same thing in milling, stay abt 2/3 off published speeds when running dry. for brass i double the 1018 sfm, for aluminum i triple it, & on the rare occasions i use carbide, i quadruple it. for tool steel i cut it in 1/2 to 40, & for alloy steel, i use 1/2 way between the two. NOW before i get shot at, VARIABILITY of all metals is a big factor ... some alum is real soft, some hard...some bronze is miserably hard as attested to by the gear cutter i recently resharpened .... this is MY guide to quick accomodation, yours may be different. #2... apparently only one gear is your problem, but heavy cuts force the back gears out of engagement. i have had both back gears on my crftsman commercial slip out w/ a heavy cut & needed to tighten the allen set screw in the collar that the lever rides in...do not see any set screw on my 6x18 (be easy to drill/tap for one, fortunately it has not slipped out of engagement).....my two pre 1900 lathes have a set screw on the collar that the eccentric shaft rotates on for adjusting the tension required to rotate the shaft, & two other olde tymers LOCK in the back gear w/ a key. best wishes, doc ------- oiling question on atlas 10 F lathe [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: "trex117x~xxverizon.net" Date: Thu Jan 3, 2013 4:27 pm ((PST)) I ordered the bearings from jbr17llc.com and I'm just waiting. As I'm getting everything prepared for the installation I was noticing how the oil cups work. There is a hole drilled straight through the top of the bearing housing,yet the exit of the hole is centered exactly where the outer bearing cup seats. It would seem that when the bearing cup is fully seated that the oil hole is then covered up (a pressed in fit too). How would the oil ever get to the roller section of the bearings? Should I pre-oil the roller cage before I seat everything? That should be a good idea I think. Also, the outer metal dust covers have a small notch cut out; does that go at the top to partially clear the oil hole or at the bottom for the excess oil to leak out? (I don't remember how it was when I removed it.) thanks ------- Re: oiling question on atlas 10 F lathe Posted by: "Scott Henion" shenionx~xxshdesigns.org Date: Thu Jan 3, 2013 4:47 pm ((PST)) Yes, the notch must be where the oil hole is. There is no drain AFAIK; just comes out the center of the covers. Scott G. Henion Craftsman 12x36 lathe: http://shdesigns.org/Craftsman12x36 ------- Re: oiling question on atlas 10 F lathe Posted by: "trex117x~xxverizon.net" Date: Thu Jan 3, 2013 5:19 pm ((PST)) Thanks Scott, I was quick to post the question and then went crazy searching it...it was already covered, you are correct. Thanks sorry for the question guys. ------- Re: oiling question on atlas 10 F lathe Posted by: "Jon Elson" elsonx~xxpico-systems.com Date: Thu Jan 3, 2013 6:29 pm ((PST)) It doesn't COMPLETELY block the hole. And, it only needs a small passage to allow the oil to drip through. Jon ------- Re: oiling question on atlas 10 F lathe Posted by: "Carvel Webb" carvelwx~xxabsamail.co.za Date: Thu Jan 3, 2013 9:54 pm ((PST)) Normally the bearing cup does not completely cover the oil hole, and oil should be able to drip through once it's seated - worth checking the hole hasn't burred over. Although the Atlas is a "total loss" oiling system, the dust covers do help to retain some oil - the notch is to allow the key through and should be at the top. The oilers should also be fitted with felt wicks to act as a reservoir, and allow oil to drip through the bearings during use - bearings should be oiled daily / every time you use it. Best regards, Carvel ------- Wanting to restore an old lathe [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: "russ61hi" russ61hix~xxyahoo.com Date: Fri Jan 11, 2013 11:42 am ((PST)) I have decided I need a new hobby and pick up some useful skills while I'm at it. The lathe has been in the family longer than I have. My dad got it from my maternal grandfather (Grandpa Keith) sometime in the late 70s or very early 80s. Before that my grandfather and his brother in law (Uncle Bud) used it to build Bud's speed boats. Grandpa Keith got it from his uncle (Uncle Hardey) who ran a surplus store in Modesto. I'm not sure when or how Uncle Hardey got it, or when Grandpa Keith got it from him, but it's been around for awhile. Unfortunatley anybody in the family who could tell me more about it is gone. I'm fairly certain it is a Craftsman 12" with a 54" bed (total length). I am new to the terminology so forgive me if I don't get things right. Mom tells me dad painited it at some point after he got it, but I can only remember it being the color that it is now. There is no name plate on the front, and it is currently on the floor. I will need to buy or build a bench for it. I have a few questions: 1. I can not find a model number or serial number plate. Where should I be looking for this? 2. If it is no longer on the lathe was ID information ever engraved at the factory? 3. If there is no model or serial number plate and no engraving, how do I determine the model number? 4. What can I use to clean up all the dust, dirt, grease, and grime. I know I do not want to ding, dent, mar, chip, or other wise damage thw ways but what should I be using? I was thinking general purpose automotive engine degreaser. 5. Easy way to figure out if it has power cross feed? Remember I am new. There is the handwheel on the carriage to advance it along the bed, the lever to engage the half nut, and some sort of push/pull knob in between the two that is currently seized in position. 6. If I determine the part number will Sears still have most of the parts? If not, besides eBay where is a good place to get parts. I know I am missing the lead screw and the lead screw mounting device, brackett, or thingy at the tail end. I have picture that I can post to aid in identification. This is a long term project that will take sometime for me to finish. Thank you for the help. ------- Re: Wanting to restore an old lathe Posted by: "Scott Henion" shenionx~xxshdesigns.org Date: Fri Jan 11, 2013 11:52 am ((PST)) Mine does not have a model number or ID plate. There will be serial number on the top right end of the bed. Look at: http://www.lathes.co.uk/craftsman/index.html You can guess the year from there. Things like purple cleaner will anodize the aluminum/Zamak parts. Water based will cause rust. I used denatured alcohol or mineral spirits on mine. The push-pull knob is the power cross feed. It will only engage while running as the teeth don't mesh when stopped. That bracket breaks often on a crash. Sears will have some of the parts. Clausing will have them at about 2/3 the price. On some parts, the only option is to watch ebay. You can post a pic in the group photo area. Scott G. Henion Craftsman 12x36 lathe: http://shdesigns.org/Craftsman12x36 ------- Re: Wanting to restore an old lathe Posted by: "Eggleston Lance" wheezer606x~xxverizon.net Date: Fri Jan 11, 2013 11:55 am ((PST)) Pictures will help identify the make and model. Sometimes it is on the bed side of the lathe bed. Dismantle. Degrease with Simple Green, Simmer in Tide/water, electrolytic cleaning and other methods. > of push/pull knob in the between the two That is the power cross feed knob. When you take apart the apron, there is a spring and small ball in there. It will work once cleaned. Sears, Clausing, eBay and this group are good source of parts. For Clausing, try Jolene Olds Date of assembly is stamped on the inner races of the headstock bearings. You are off on an addictive adventure. lance ------- Re: Wanting to restore an old lathe Posted by: "Jon Elson" elsonx~xxpico-systems.com Date: Fri Jan 11, 2013 1:37 pm ((PST)) You don't actually need the model number. For the later 12" lathe, there really were very few changes in the design over the life of the product. If it has a QC, the last version had an overload clutch on the leadscrew. There was a much earlier 12" that was essentially a 10" with a taller headstock, but it had 3/8"thick ways. The later 12" had 1/2" ways and a beefier compound slide. Otherwise, most of the parts are compatible. Jon ------- Re: Wanting to restore an old lathe Posted by: chrisandjudyx~xxcableone.net Date: Fri Jan 11, 2013 2:29 pm ((PST)) Approx when did atlas switch from 3/8 ways to 1/2 inch ways? Were there any "F" model with 3/8 ways? Thanks Chris ------- Re: Wanting to restore an old lathe Posted by: "Jon Elson" elsonx~xxpico-systems.com Date: Fri Jan 11, 2013 6:47 pm ((PST)) Early 12" were made on the 10" bed, with a taller headstock. I'm not sure when they switched over to the later model bed; might have been before 1958. The D and F model names all apply to the 10" model. All 10" have the 3/8" ways. There might be some info on the lathes.uk site. Jon ------- Re: Wanting to restore an old lathe Posted by: wa5cabx~xxcs.com Date: Fri Jan 11, 2013 7:36 pm ((PST)) Actually, all Atlas (which includes those made for Sears) 9", 10" and 12" lathes used the same basic bed design and same part numbers from around 1933 until 1957. They were made in four lengths, 36", 42", 48" and 54" until 1948 when the 36" and 48" were dropped from production. Over the quarter century of production, there were four variants (3 revisions), base, A, B, and C. The final revision was made in the early 40's. I am working on dating the introduction and disappearance of the 14 commonly known pre-war through 1957 12" models. When I have something settled, I'll report it. As Jon indicated, the lettered models (A through F) are all 10" and were sold by Atlas and not sold by Sears. All 10" used the same 3/8" beds as the 12" of the same year. Production of 10" ceased after 1957, when Atlas began for the first time to also sell 12" (the 1/2" bed models). Robert Downs - Houston wa5cab dot com (Web Store) MVPA 9480 ------- Re: Wanting to restore an old lathe Posted by: wa5cabx~xxcs.com Date: Fri Jan 11, 2013 7:58 pm ((PST)) The 12" swing lathe (12" diameter or 6" radius over the bed, not the carriage) with 54" bed is AKA 12X36 meaning a nominal 36" between headstock and tailstock centers. From the beginning through 1957, Atlas (and Craftsman) nameplates on at least the 9", 10" and 12" were attached to the back of the bed near the center. Model Number and usually Serial Number were engraved or stamped on this plate. It appears that during a few years of production, the Serial Number was stamped on top of the front way near the right end. I received a photo of such a bed only tonight. The nameplate was the same - just no Serial Number stamped on it. The common and obvious identifiers are spindle bearing type, back gears or not, power cross feed or not, and QCGB or not. Those will ID a lathe into one of four model number groups. Age identifiers are bench feet style and lead screw diameter. Additional identifiers are things like belt and gear guards and part numbers on internal parts. I'm making progress toward pinning some of this stuff down. I think that the rest of the questions were adequately answered earlier tonight. Robert Downs - Houston wa5cab dot com (Web Store) MVPA 9480 ------- Removing the Name Plates [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: "fester225" fester225x~xxgmail.com Date: Sun Jan 13, 2013 6:32 pm ((PST)) I've got a Craftsman Atlas TH-42 lathe with lots of hours on it. As I have to strip the whole thing down anyway, I've decided to re-paint it. The way to strip the paint off is to put it in a paint burn-off oven, which I happen to have access to. When I pull out the base, all the printing on the nameplates will be burned off. It would obviously be better if I could remove the nameplates before burning. Is there anything I should know about the rivets holding the nameplates on before attempting to remove them? What kind of rivets are they? How do I remove them? Where do I find replacements? ------- Re: Removing the Name Plates Posted by: "Jon Elson" elsonx~xxpico-systems.com jmelson2 Date: Sun Jan 13, 2013 6:48 pm ((PST)) They are called drive screws. They have a knurled back with a slight twist to the knurling. They are easier to drive in than remove, but they can be pulled out. If the holes are drilled all the way through, they can be driven out from behind with a pin. If not, you can be pulled out. Possibly filing the sides so they can be gripped with pliers or diagonal cutters. Jon ------- Re: Removing the Name Plates Posted by: "Dan Buchanan" db45acpx~xxyahoo.com Date: Sun Jan 13, 2013 7:22 pm ((PST)) Brilliant description, Jon. I might add a suggestion to resist the temptation to pry the pins out, as the nameplates are easily damaged from any impacts or pressures upon them. Dan ------- Re: Removing the Name Plates Posted by: "Michael Fagan" woodworker88x~xxgmail.com Date: Sun Jan 13, 2013 7:42 pm ((PST)) If you can't get access to the drive screws from the backside, you could try carefully drilling the head off, then drilling out the remaining screw. We use them to secure the nameplates on the machinery my employer makes, so I made a fixture to steady the drill, but you could probably carefully centerpunch the head and go from there. ------- Re: Removing the Name Plates Posted by: wa5cabx~xxcs.com Date: Sun Jan 13, 2013 7:46 pm ((PST)) Fester, Craftsman never sold a 10". It's just an Atlas TH-42. I don't think you are going to like the consequences of burning the paint off of the bed or other components with machined surfaces. (a) it'll ruin all of the machined surfaces. (b) most likely the bed will warp. I recommend chemical or mechanical stripping. However, if you want to remove the nameplate, it is attached to the bed with #2 x 3/16" P.K. Drive Screws. Which look somewhat like #2 round head wood screws with no slot in the head. Atlas part number 145366. To remove the nameplate, unless the drive screw is loose enough that you can pull it out, first drill off the head. Then lift off the nameplate. Finally, drill out the screw. I assume that the Machinery's Handbook figures for Type U Self Tapping and Drive Screws apply, which calls for a #44 drill. To set the new screws, use something that looks like a nail set with the flat end touched with a small ball end mill (in other words, it fits the head). ------- Re: Removing the Name Plates Posted by: "sapperd06" sapper6x~xxroadrunner.com Date: Sun Jan 13, 2013 8:21 pm ((PST)) I don't think I would use the paint burn off oven. There are several issues you will have to deal with. 1. The timed and controlled heating of the bed. 2. The timed and controlled cooling of the bed. You could use sand as a heat retention media, or maybe your oven can do the controlled cool itself. 3. The bed itself has 3 planes that must be stabilized when heated and cooled. Those tolerance standards are .001 from Atlas for alignment and parallelism (in effect 9 planes with twist in plane). Now I have to admit there are not too many machines out there that have maintained those tolerances and standards. 4. I don't know what temps your oven will work at, but there may be enough internal stressing to cause a crack. The crack can occur in the heating, maintaining, cooling and combined in all phases. You would have to use/ rely on your own previous experiences for that call, unless someone here has real life experience with that, then just ask. When dealing with all the above circumstances, I would not feel comfortable undertaking that task by using an oven, even though I have a lot of experience in heating, maintaining, and cooling of larger cast iron precision items, i.e. cast iron engine blocks and also arc welding of cast iron parts. Not all of my experiences have been bad, so it is possible to do this task, but if the results produce a crack, break, or twist, you are set back with no lathe bed and you would have to buy a used bed or lathe. This is the reason, I have not powder coated my lathe bed. I am almost sure that everyone here would like to know your results with details about times, temps, jigs, and of course always, lots of pixs. Please keep us updated and if you have any questions, just ask. Don ------- Re: Removing the Name Plates Posted by: "sapperd06" sapper6x~xxroadrunner.com Date: Sun Jan 13, 2013 8:46 pm ((PST)) I have removed many drive screws. This is the foolproof way to remove them: 1. Put electrical tape to protect the surfaces around the drive screw, i.e. protect the dataplates. 2. Use the side of a hand file to create 2 flat surfaces. I estimate that each side will be reduced by a 1/4 of the diameter of the drive-screw head. 3. Use a flush cut Diagonal pliers or side cutters to clamp on the flats you filed and turn an 1/8 or 1/4 counterclockwise until the drive-screw starts to back out. Then regrip the drive-screw between the head and the data plate. Then continue to turn until the drive-screw is removed. Sources for new drive-screws include: 1. Fastenal also carries Round Head U Drive Screws priced per screw. You can order online or goto the store if you have one locally. 2. McMaster-Carr. The only issue is the they come in a quantity of 100 for less than 10.00. Also check your local hardware store. Don ------- Re: Removing the Name Plates Posted by: jmartin957x~xxaol.com Date: Mon Jan 14, 2013 12:25 am ((PST)) The above is probably the best way to remove them, although it's not quite foolproof. The threads don't have much of a twist to them, so twisting to remove doesn't always work. To better your chances, use a cold chisel on them alternately from each side to loosen them up a bit first. If the hole goes all the way through, a pin punch from the back side will make quick work of them. Drilling them is tough. They are hard, and the round head makes starting a centered hole difficult. If one won't twist out, hit the cold chisel a little harder and shear the head off, then drill. Or, leave the shank in, fill the old holes, and drill new holes in a different spot. If you have to take the heads off, the safest way is with a rivet shaving bit in an aircraft counterstop. Set it so it doesn't go quite to the nameplate. You can usually find these cheaply on eBay, and they are very handy. John Martin ------- Re: Removing the Name Plates Posted by: "Guenther Paul" paulguenterx~xxatt.net Date: Mon Jan 14, 2013 1:43 am ((PST)) Correction They are called drive rivets. Yes there are some with a spiral, but not all of them. I am not sure of the type Atlas used. Some drive rivets have a taper wedge on the end one would have hell to pull them the way you described. The only way to remove them is to drill them out. I do have a lathe; I think I will try to get the plate off. GP ------- Re: Removing the Name Plates Posted by: "sapperd06" sapper6x~xxroadrunner.com Date: Mon Jan 14, 2013 3:15 am ((PST)) GP, a drive rivet is a totally different animal. From Mcmaster dot com . "Pin-Drive Anchors-Also known as drive rivets, the body flares out to hold securely. To install, hammer the pin or screw into the body. To remove domed head and flat head anchors, pry out the pin. To remove domed head with removable screw anchors, unthread the screw. Anchors are not reusable or rated for pull out and shear strength." I bought a box of drive screws from Mcmaster carr many years ago and they are twisted "thread". I have been using the same box for years now and I have never had to drill out the drive screws. So after 12-15 restores on A/C lathes 10-12" I am pretty convinced that they all used the same drive screws for the 10-12 A/C data plates. >From Mcmaster dot com . "Screw Nails for Metal, Plastic, and Plywood. Also known as round-head Type U drive screws. Drive these into drilled or punched holes and get the hold of a screw when fastening sheet metal, plastic, and plywood. Hole size should be slightly smaller than the shank diameter." So I should have used the term "Round-head Type U drive screws" or "Drive nail". But they are definitely not a drive rivet. Don ------- Re: Removing the Name Plates Posted by: "Guenther Paul" paulguenterx~xxatt.net paulguenterx~xxatt.net Date: Mon Jan 14, 2013 3:50 am ((PST)) Don: yes there are different types; there are some with pins coming out of the head that one drives in. I guess the better way to call it is a blind rivet. I have some but not as small with spirals on the shank. It is quite common that people call them the wrong thing. I could not find them at mc master. GP ------- Re: Removing the Name Plates Posted by: "sapperd06" sapper6x~xxroadrunner.com Date: Mon Jan 14, 2013 4:57 am ((PST)) GP, I could not find the straight Round-head Type U drive screws or blind rivets at McMaster Carr, only the helix type. I have seen them before somewhere, but I have CRS. The one thing I do know is that every data plate I have removed has had Round-head Type U drive screws. I estimate that I have about 75 or so left over from the box of 100 from McMaster Carr. If you go to mcmaster dot com and go to catalog page 3357 half way down the page will see the screw nails or do a search for "type u drive screws" and it will take you to them. You can also search by part number. What I can make out of the label on the box is that it is a "Size 4". I have listed the specs below along with the part numbers, so you can also search by part number. Length shank dia head dia Part Number 1/4" 0.12" 0.21" 90081A106 5/16" 0.12" 0.21" 90081A107 3/8" 0.12" 0.21" 90081A108 I have the 5/16", but the 1/4" will work fine. I have had a couple of lathes in which I had to grind off a little bit from the drive screw because the holes were not deep enough. They also have some on ebay if you want to spend the time searching. Don ------- Re: Removing the Name Plates Posted by: "Eggleston Lance" wheezer606x~xxverizon.net Date: Mon Jan 14, 2013 3:59 pm ((PST)) I just did this task on my SBL 9. Some rivets were accessible from the back, the pin punch is the way to go there. Others, I mounted a fine abrasive wheel in my Dremel, carefully cut a slot in the head. Took about 4 sec. Then a screw driver to back them out. On my 16", the rivets didn't have a twist. I used a razor knife as a wedge to work them up high enough to get a pair of diagonal cutters underneath and lift. Bulldog pliers might work better. As mentioned, protect the Al plate with tape and try to not to exert leverage against the raised parts. The thin sheet is VERY soft. lance ------- Re: Removing the Name Plates Posted by: "Rexarino" rexarinox~xxgmail.com Date: Tue Jan 15, 2013 12:18 am ((PST)) Lance, what are Bulldog pliers? I googled, but got nearly every type of pliers made in my searches... Rex in Oregon ------- Re: Removing the Name Plates Posted by: "sapperd06" sapper6x~xxroadrunner.com Date: Tue Jan 15, 2013 2:14 am ((PST)) Bulldog pliers are also known as end cutting pliers. you can google them. The problem with most standard pliers is that they are of the midcut knife type. Which means the knife point or the V is somewhere towards the middle of the total width of the knife. That means you will have to get the head of the rivet or drive screw far enough away from the data plate so the V will go behind the head and not cut into the side of the round head. This is shown when you cut a piece of wire and each side of the wire has a 45 deg angle on it. The alternative I did was to regrind the pliers so its outside knife edge is flat, thus making it into a flush cut. This is shown by cutting a wire and the outside piece will be cut at 90 deg and the inside will be cut at 45 deg. This would require very little space between the dataplate and the bottom of the rivet or drivescrew. They are made by several companies, but are typically used in the precious metal craft so they can mate up 2 90 deg wires instead of 2 45 deg wires. Also it was just easier and cheaper to grind an old set of side cutters than to search for and buy a set that may be too weak to handle the hardened rivet or drive screw. This is also typical of Bulldog or end cutting pliers, and you could grind either type to become a flush cut. Don ------- Re: adjusting the preload on the spindle bearings [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: "Scott Henion" shenionx~xxshdesigns.org Date: Mon Feb 4, 2013 3:19 pm ((PST)) On 2/4/2013, Ben D'Avanza wrote: > Hi. I have collected a lot of info about my 12" Crafsman/Atlas lathe > but can't seem to find anything about how to adjust the bearing preload. > Please advise. Thanks -Ben It is in the service bulletins: http://scottandersonpipes.com/atlas_press/servicebulletins.htm Scott G. Henion Craftsman 12x36 lathe: http://shdesigns.org/Craftsman12x36 ------- Re: adjusting the preload on the spindle bearings Posted by: wa5cabx~xxcs.com Date: Mon Feb 4, 2013 3:26 pm ((PST)) Ben, You'll find the preload setting instructions in an Atlas factory Bulletin. They can be found several places on the Internet but there are PDF copies in the Files section of the atlas_craftsman_projects Group (which you're welcome to join). The Projects group is used for additional file storage space for this group. The Bulletins are in the Repairs and Maintenance folder. If you have an early Craftsman 12" with 3/8" ways, use the 10" Bulletin. If you have a late 1/2" bed 12", use the 12" one. There is also a member write-up on removing/installing the spindle in the Repair and Maintenance folder in this (the main) group's Files section. It's worth reading. I probably should put it with the Bulletins. Robert D. ------- Re: Adjusting the rack height. [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: "geoffrey_in_siam_atlas_12in_3991" lovex~xxcvbt-web.org Date: Tue Feb 5, 2013 12:54 am ((PST)) I finally have a little time and energy to work on this project. I got the rack off today. I used the jack to get the tail taper pin out. The head taper pin wouldn't budge. We pried the rack out 3 mm and the head taper pin just embedded itself further in the rack. So, we hit the rack back against the bed and drilled a hole in the center of the pin (so it would collapse in and not split the rack). Then we pried the rack all the way off the pin. We could then pry the pin out of the bed. The rack can be flipped end-to-end; the hole pattern is symetrical. The countersinks are now against the bed. I don't see away to countersink the screw holes and still leave enough material on the rack. I think welding the holes shut and redrilling would distort the rack. For the taper holes: If I ream a taper from the new outside then I'll have no taper left (or very little). It appears that I can offset the rack fore or aft and drill a new set of screw holes and counter sink them and drill and ream new taper holes. Is this correct? Does anyone have the dimensions (blue print) of the rack (54") including distance from top of teeth to hole center? How about the correct hole sizes and spacing? I'm still baffled as to why the rack was shimmed down about 2 mm. It must have been necessary for the spur gear to engage the rack. Thanks. ------- Re: Adjusting the rack height. Posted by: wa5cabx~xxcs.com Date: Tue Feb 5, 2013 9:35 am ((PST)) Hi, Long time no see. Refresh our memory on what was wrong with the rack. Wasn't it missing some teeth? On the presence of the shims on top of the rack, I thought that we concluded that maybe some shims were missing from under the carriage. However, if the screw holes and the taper pin holes line up with the shims in place, the simplest solution is to leave them or maybe replace them with one single long strip of the proper thickness. So long as the spur gear on the carriage engages the rack teeth properly and the carriage is OK without additional shims, I don't see what it would hurt. On the countersink for the screw holes, I don't understand why you can't just do that on the former back side. The rack is 5/16" thick. And I don't see any reason why the holes have to be countersunk below flush as the ones on my 3996 are. The taper pins present the most challenge. One thing that might work would be to get four new taper pins. Cut two of them off with a length from the large end of about 3/32". Drive them into the two holes (did I mention that my rack only has one pin?) using the highest shear strength product Locktite currently sells. After letting that cure for a day, attach the rack to a piece of scrap and drill and ream the holes from the new front side. Or you could offset the rack and drill new holes. However, I doubt anyone has managed to acquire a copy of the original rack drawing from Clausing because they don't supply drawings of anything that they still sell. So any dimensions any of us could give you would be no more accurate than what you could measure yourself. Personally, I would attempt to salvage the existing holes first. ------- Rack replacement. Posted by: "geoffrey_in_siam_atlas_12in_3991" lovex~xxcvbt-web.org Date: Wed Feb 6, 2013 12:19 am ((PST)) Thanks for the reply. This is a great group. I studied the installation and I agree that the countersink for the Fillister Head screws is not needed for clearance. I hope it is not needed for resistance to force. It seems to me that the primary purpose of the rack is to be able to use the handwheel to move the carriage up and down the bed. Best practice is not to use the handwheel to push the tool bit to make a cut. Having removed the rack we discovered that our two locator/fixing holes/ pins are straight, not tapered. 3/16" groove pins should work here. The pins we took out had been tapered. Finally, I discovered that the rack is worn at both ends indicating that it had already been flipped end to end. And that is probably why it was shimmed 1 mm down from the bed. It is time for a new rack. I'm checking with Clausing and I'll see what's available in Bangkok. I didn't see anything on Amazon except Boston Gear ads. Rack Spec's Length 42.5" Teeth Quantity 216 Diametral Pitch 16 (Teeth per inch of diameter) Circular Pitch 0.1963" Pressure Angle 20 degrees ?? Pitch Line Backing 3/8" Thickness is 7/16" Face is 5/16" I'd like to know the pressure angle. The pressure angle could be 25 degrees because that theoretically allows the pinion (spur) gear to have 12 teeth (which it does). I checked and 25 degree pressure angle is rare. 20 degrees is more common and it is easy to find 12 tooth gears with a 20 degree pressure angle. I'd guess this is a 20 degree pressure angle gear. Does anyone know for sure? ------- Re: Rack replacement. Posted by: jerdalx~xxsbcglobal.net Date: Wed Feb 6, 2013 5:24 am ((PST)) > It seems to me that the primary purpose of the rack is to be able to use > the handwheel to move the carriage up and down the bed. Best practice is > not to use the handwheel to push the tool bit to make a cut. Why would you say that? There is NOTHING wrong with manual feed with the handwheel. Not only that, in the BETTER lathes, the power feed USES the rack, essentially turning the handwheel by power means, replacing your hand. It is only in cheaper hobby lathes that the same leadscrew used for screwcutting is also used for feeds by engaging the halfnuts. I would say that "best practice" is to NOT use the leadscrew for ordinary feed purposes, as that wears out the leadscrew and makes it less accurate and so less useful useful for screwcutting. JT ------- Re: Rack replacement. Posted by: "geoffrey_in_siam_atlas_12in_3991" lovex~xxcvbt-web.org Date: Wed Feb 6, 2013 5:29 am ((PST)) I didn't know that. Thanks. ------- Re: Rack replacement. Posted by: wa5cabx~xxcs.com Date: Wed Feb 6, 2013 8:29 am ((PST)) Running dual gearboxes and dual drive shafts the length of the bed certainly equates to more expensive. It doesn't automatically equate to better, which in our case is a subjective term, not an absolute. The choice of handwheel or lead screw to drive the carriage is circumstantial, not best practice. Robert Downs - Houston [and in Robert's later message] It's my understanding that all of the other gears in the Atlas machines are 14.5 deg. pressure angle and 16 DP. Whether that includes the rack and pinion, I've never seen anyone say. I just ordered a set of gear tooth gauges from McMaster. When they get here, I'll check my rack and let you know unless someone else turns up with an authoritative source first. ------- Re: Rack replacement. Posted by: "cliff" kenx~xxucsp.com Date: Wed Feb 6, 2013 1:20 pm ((PST)) Correct, if it is a 10 or 12 Atlas/Craftsman lathe, the change gears are all 14.5 PA and 16 DP, that includes the gears in the apron -- the rack is also 14.5 PA and 16 DP. To find the DP count the number of teeth, add 2, then divide by the diameter of the gear (that's the overall outside diameter including the teeth). N(teeth) + 2 / diameter of gear = DP The rack is a gear of infinite diameter, so the simplest way to look at it is that the gear that meshes with it is 16 DP and 14.5 PA, so the rack is the same. There is no easy formula for finding the PA, however if it's an Atlas 10 - 12 the change gears are 14.5 PA & 16 DP (actually all gears in it, except the ones in the right half of the QC box, they are 20 DP, but still 14.5 PA). I think the change gears on a 618 or a 109 are 20 DP, but I'm not positive -- the formula above will tell you what they are. -------- Re: Rack replacement. Posted by: "cliff" kenx~xxucsp.com Date: Wed Feb 6, 2013 1:24 pm ((PST)) That's interesting, I did not know that. Which better lathes would that be that use the rack to power drive the saddle? Just curious. Thanks. ------- Re: Rack replacement. Posted by: jerdalx~xxsbcglobal.net Date: Wed Feb 6, 2013 5:03 pm ((PST)) It's not a hugely important point, but may be worth an answer... Essentially every single lathe intended for industrial use, and quite a few that are not, use a feed mechanism that does not involve the halfnuts. The leadscrew threads are reserved only for threading. Among smaller machines that might be used in a home shop as well as industrially, Logan offered that, although they did also sell ones using the leadscrew for feeds. Southbend offered their lowest end "workshop" 9" lathe in a model with "full feeds" as well as a model without them. All the other S-B would have 'full feeds" automatically. The basic home-shop lathe has feed via the half-nuts, the "turning" feed is the same exact mechanism as the threading feed. The assumption apparently is that home-shop folks won't do enough threading, or perhaps won't use their machines enough, to cause significant wear. The alternative is a feed that does not involve the half-nuts. That can be done multiple ways. One is to have a keyway on the leadscrew, and a worm keyed to it that drives the feed. (Atlas have the keyway, but it is only used for the crossfeed). The feed is done through the rack using the handwheel gearing. Logan and the S-B workshop series, as well as many other smaller lathes use this method. Another way is to have a separate "feed rod" that is used to provide the rotation for the feed. This has the advantage that the feed can have a different ratio unrelated to the threading feed. One can be changed without affecting the other. Feed is still via the rack, in general. One or two makers have had electric motor feed for turning, independent of the spindle. Now, WA5CAB may not think those alternatives equal "better", but if not, he is left to explain why they have been universally accepted in place of "half-nut feed" for essentially every single industrial engine lathe ever built in the USA, and most made elsewhere, as well as many upper end hobby machines. The obvious answer is a combination of wear, and functionality; you do not wear the leadscrew nearly as fast, and you can have at least some significant difference between the coarse threading and the generally much finer turning feed, without constant re-setting. JT ------- Atlas Gear Pressure Angles [atlas_craftsman] [was Re: Rack replacement.] Posted by: "geoffrey_in_siam_atlas_12in_3991" lovex~xxcvbt-web.org Date: Wed Feb 6, 2013 6:04 pm ((PST)) "if it's an Atlas 10 - 12 the change gears are 14.5 PA & 16 DP (actually all gears in it, except the ones in the right half of the QC box, they are 20 DP, but still 14.5 PA)." Thanks for that. That's what I really needed to know. I checked and indeed http://www.martinsprocket.com/gears.htm list 12-tooth, 14.5 PA, 16DP gears in stock. My design information says that a 25PA would be better for a 12-tooth gear. But we can see from experience that a 12-tooth 14.5 PA actually does work. Thanks. I'm going to check with Bangkok. ------- Re: 3996 bed swap [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: wa5cabx~xxcs.com Date: Fri Feb 8, 2013 4:40 pm ((PST)) In a message dated 02/08/2013, rogerlkingx~xxbellsouth.net writes: > After examining my bed rails, it appears that after swapping ends, I will have to cut a small notch on the inside of both rails to clear a gear in the headstock. Also maybe a couple of drillings to remount the headstock and leadscrew bearing. It is not apart yet so I don't know exactly how the headstock mounts. Looking at the Atlas parts assembly sheet, it appears that both ends of the bedrails are the same. I still believe that making the swap, it will make my lathe more accurate. It is good to know that someone else has experienced this. < Roger, Although it could be true, if you are using only half or less of the available carriage travel, it doesn't automatically follow that using one end of the bed will result in significantly greater accuracy than using the other. It depends upon the distribution (location) of the wear. Before expending the labor it will take to turn the thing around, I would first accurately measure the width of the bed (front of front way to rear of rear way) and individual width of front way and back way about every inch or 2 from the front of the headstock to the same distance from the other end. Unless there is a bed turret, the tailstock is normally the only thing to slide back and forth between the ways and compared to the carriage, it doesn't slide very often. So subtracting the front way width figures from the total width figures and plotting it (either mentally or physically) gives you pretty close to the straightmess of the back of the back way. If it is essentially straight over the area where you expect to operate, you won't improve the accuracy any by reversing the ways. Repeat the excercise but subtract the width of the back way from the total, and plot those figures but turned around (right most figure plotted at the left and vice versa) and you will see what you will have if you turn the bed around. Depending upon where the actual wear is, you could be better off, no better off, or worse off. Robert Downs - Houston wa5cab dot com (Web Store) MVPA 9480 ------- Re: 3996 bed swap Posted by: "pecanguy" rogerlkingx~xxbellsouth.net Date: Fri Feb 8, 2013 5:10 pm ((PST)) Thanks Robert. I'll take some measurements tomorrow and see what it looks like. Thanks ------- Re: 3996 bed swap Posted by: "Doc" n8as1x~xxaol.com docn8as Date: Fri Feb 8, 2013 7:05 pm ((PST)) I wud mount an indicator on the carriage w/ the point on the near flat beyond the wear area & traverse the carriage ...you may find very little variation in the first 1/2 of the bed ....[i have had a lathe w/ 27 thou bed wear head to tail but only 5 thou variation in first 12 inches.] & it was very usable ...FWIW IIRC on another lathe, ten thou bed wear resulted in only a few tenths difference turning a one in rod ...the smaller the rod, of course the more variation, but i believe a follow rest wud move the work down as the bed moved down or rotated from wear, mitigating the problem ......& how often will you turn a 24 in long rod anyway? after checking i wud run some test cuts before even thinking about switching out the bed, which that alone will bring in possibilities of serious alignment problems. the lack of properly correcting wud be even more damaging to accuracy .... & there are other factors in accurate turning that may have more effect than bed wear. final thought is that the bed wear "bugaboo" for accurate work is overrated for HSM parameters. best wishes doc ------- Re: 3996 bed swap Posted by: "Doc" n8as1x~xxaol.com docn8as Date: Mon Feb 11, 2013 4:49 pm ((PST)) Feb 10, 2013 pecanguy wrote: > What about the issue with the saddle shims and gib adjustment? Presently if I install the correct saddle shims and adjust the saddle gibs for working at the chuck, then it's too tight to move toward the tailstock. Likewise, if I set up for the tailstock end, then it's too loose for working at the chuck end. Most of my turning is within 10-12" of the chuck. < pecan guy this is what i KNOW from experience .... on my circa 1918 14 in monarch A, i am guessing i can lift the carriage a good ten thou; on my 1895 14 in Reed, i can lift the carriage a bit more, maybe abt 15 thou (& on this lathe, nothing anchors the front xcept when using the carriage lock -- no gibs /shims).....both machines have inverted V ways & have 9 thou bed wear on the first 1/2 of the bed .... i do accurate work on these machines, taking finish cuts under 1/2 a thou when needed (just made a 10 inch long 7/8 horizontal arbor for my van norman 16 M)....my 12x26 crftsmn commercial cabinet lathe has no movement that i can feel, only see the oil move ....bought new 1974. this is what i THINK i wud do in your place .... i wud set the carriage up w/ a SNUG but movable fit at the far end .... then take some test cuts at the headstock end ....i THINK you will find no problem since the cutting force is always towards the operator & down, taking the slack out ....& snugging the carriage LOCK when using near headstock, may mitigate any inaccuracies that occur if they DO exist. i dont know your experience so bear w/ me ...you MUST take out the backlash on x feed & compound screws when test cutting ...or the results will tear your mind up ....if you have 20 thou lash on xfeed & back OFF ten thou & take a cut, nothing may happen ...you must back up beyond the lash & then come forward to your new lesser setting! .... second, there will always be residual force on the tool bit after taking a cut, particularly on a light machine or/and a heavy cut so when you put on the next cut, it will cut MORE due to the residual flex ....when taking a serious finish cut, you must back off the feed first & then put on the feed to eliminate the residual flex otherwise, you are guessing & may well overcut. ALSO, stone the bit when taking a lite finish cut, particularly on steel, if at all dull, & you put a thou on, it may not cut, then when you add another thou, & it still may not cut...add another thou & you get a 3 thou cut.....& the part is 4 thou UNDER size .....(sadly, learned the hard way in the dark past). best wishes doc ------- Re: 3996 bed swap Posted by: "pecanguy" rogerlkingx~xxbellsouth.net Date: Tue Feb 12, 2013 6:27 am ((PST)) Thanks Doc, Good explanation as I am a novice in machining. It is a very interesting hobby for me. The only problem that I see is that when I set the carriage up w/ a snug but movable fit at the far end, then the carriage is too snug to move toward the headstock. If I back off, then I'm back where I started. This is what prompted my original question. I see your point in being sure that all backlash is taken up before taking the cut. Thanks ------- Re: 3996 bed swap Posted by: "Doc" n8as1x~xxaol.com docn8as Date: Tue Feb 12, 2013 2:25 pm ((PST)) if you set it up snug at the far end, it will be LOOSER at the headstock ...snug, but MOVABLE at the far end where there is hardly any wear....any looseness then at the headstock end, I THINK, will be not detrimental for normal turnng .... forces are consistant toward operator & down ....the looseness in my larger lathes has not been a problem. i question what you wud gain by reversing the bed...the wear at the chuck end is most likely fairly EVEN, presenting almost no problem .....if you turn the bed around you face the same problem only in reverse ....when you cut at the far end, the carriage will be LOOSE. final thot ...i think you are worrying unnecessarily, & certainly too soon ...start using the lathe, gain some skill, & then see if further attention is needed. let me know how much bed wear the indicator shows...you can also take a depth mike & note the amt of wear where the carriage bears compared to the unworn part of the bed. best wishes doc ------- Gearbox rebuild for late model 12" Atlas/Craftsman lathe [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: "vachss" vachssx~xxyahoo.com Date: Sun Feb 10, 2013 1:45 pm ((PST)) I'm in the process of rebuilding the quick-change gearbox on an Atlas 3985 and have noted that the gear selector arms are a little bit loose on their shaft. I pulled the shaft and found the shaft diameter was 0.621" while the bores in the selector arms were 0.625 and 0.629". On earlier models of the Atlas 12" this sort of sloppiness could be cured by replacing the 4 appropriate bushings in the selector arms, but I have just found out that the late model Atlas 3900 / Craftsman Commercial lathes dropped the bushings in these locations and just have the arms ride on the shaft, steel-to-steel. I am thinking of modifying the selector arms in my QCGB by boring out the holes and installing bushings as in the earlier 12" lathes. Has anyone here tried this and, if so, are there any "gotchas" I should be aware of? Thanks. ------- Re: Gearbox rebuild for late model 12" Atlas/Craftsman lathe Posted by: "sapperd06" sapper6x~xxroadrunner.com Date: Sun Feb 10, 2013 3:26 pm ((PST)) I have done this to 2 QCGB. Both were earlier models and did not have bushings in the arms. I did bore out the arms and place oil-lite bushings in the arms and then cut out the gap. I had a hell of a time getting the arms bored in alignment. I ended up using a 3-way vise and some kind of setting plastic that is used for pad printing. Basically there is no good place to clamp down on the arms. So I casted a mold and placed it in the three way vise to get it aligned the best I could. I did place a spacer in between the split of the arm to prevent it from flexing when clamped. I did wreck 1 arm in my set up testing, but ultimately was able to create a mold that would hold it steady enough to correctly bore the arms. I then pressed an oil-lite bushing in. I did drill an oil hole in a new shaft along with several outlet holes in the shaft and keyway, because there was no good way to oil it with every use, unless you stand on your head upside down. I would consider that shaft a consumable item and it is the cause of broken, pulled, and sheared gears in the QCGB. Once you have a problem sliding the handle or sticking, it is time to act. If I do it again I will replace the shaft with a sightly larger dia one, then using my sunnen rod hone align hone the case to the new dia and the same for the arms. I would also deburr/radius each finger of the arms so they do not cut into the shaft when the arm's gears are torqued slightly. Remember that the mesh between the 2 gears is very small with a lot of torque, so alignment and full depth is necessary. I hope I did not confuse the explanation too much. Any questions, just ask. Don ------- Re: Gearbox rebuild for late model 12" Atlas/Craftsman lathe Posted by: wa5cabx~xxcs.com Date: Sun Feb 10, 2013 5:28 pm ((PST)) I haven't tried it but can think of no reason why it wouldn't work. However, what is the diameter of the shaft in an unworn area? You might want to replace the shaft first. Robert Downs - Houston wa5cab dot com (Web Store) MVPA 9480 ------- Re: Gearbox rebuild for late model 12" Atlas/Craftsman lathe Posted by: "vachss" vachssx~xxyahoo.com Date: Sun Feb 10, 2013 6:14 pm ((PST)) Robert, The shaft diameter varies very little - from 0.622" at the clamped ends which should have no wear to about 0.621 in the most used areas. This 0.001" variation compares to 0.004 to 0.009" slop/wear in the bore holes in the arms. This might make sense as the shaft looks like a harder grade of steel than the arm. Don's (sapperd06) advice has made me a bit more cautious before just boring away willy nilly, but I still think this may be the best way to get the smooth arm travel I'm looking for. ------- Re: Gearbox rebuild for late model 12" Atlas/Craftsman lathe Posted by: "vachss" vachssx~xxyahoo.com Date: Sun Feb 10, 2013 6:03 pm ((PST)) Don, I can see how I'll need to position the bore holes pretty accurately, but I think that just mounting a 5/8 steel rod in the mill, aligning the existing bore hole in the arm to this shaft and then clamping the arm down (with the appropriate shims beneath the arm to preserve orientation wrt the shaft) will get me pretty close. One positive in this is that the selector arms on the late model Atlas's are large blocky units that I believe should clamp down to the mill table relatively easily. I like your idea of machining a new shaft rather than potentially wrecking my existing selector arms by mis-boring, but wouldn't that necessitate boring out the gears in the arm ends to fit the new shaft and its own potential set of problems? Again the OD of the existing shaft is 0.621", the ID of the gears at the end of the arms are both 0.621-0.622 for a nice tight fit, while the bore holes are a somewhat looser 0.625-0.629". All in all it still sounds like boring the arms may be the best bet, but I should think long and hard before possibly trashing some hard to replace parts... ------- Re: Gearbox rebuild for late model 12" Atlas/Craftsman lathe Posted by: "sapperd06" sapper6x~xxroadrunner.com Date: Sun Feb 10, 2013 8:08 pm ((PST)) Wow, that's what happens when you are having 3 conversations at once on 2 hrs of sleep. The idea I was trying to get across is that I would replace the shaft. (Modify it for internal oil passages and reference mark the outside for oil passage alignment.) Then I would hone, not bore, the case for bushings drilled for oil intake. Then hone not bore the arms. I had a lot of trouble getting the boring alignment of the arm holes, then I would hone undersize to press fit the bushing and final honing to the size of the shaft. This is my inexperience with the mill, and comfort level with the horizontal hone. Then just mill or cut out the space for the gear in the arm leaving it close enough to close up the tolerance between the gear and the arm. Sorry for the brain f*rt. ------- Re: Gearbox rebuild for late model 12" Atlas/Craftsman ... Posted by: wa5cabx~xxcs.com Date: Sun Feb 10, 2013 7:40 pm ((PST)) OK. I agree that the wear almost all seems to be in the arms. I would have expected the original shaft diameter to be on nominal (0.625) and the holes to be over (like motor shafts and pulleys). So bushing the arms is the obvious fix. As you originally said. Robert Downs - Houston ------- NOTE TO FILE: We have recorded several conversations here about having an Atlas lathe bed reground if there is some unacceptable level of wear. Another such came up recently and was placed in the "Machine General" file as it may be useful to owners of different lathes. It starts there as: Grinding a lathe bed in the midwest? [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: "chrisrock_984" chrisrock_984x~xxyahoo.com Date: Fri Feb 15, 2013 7:40 pm ((PST)) And do note that fine work can be done on a lathe with a worn bed by using the tips given by Doc in the conversation "Re: 3996 bed swap" earlier this month in this "Atlas Repair or Fitting" file. ------- Worn Craftsman 10" lathe [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: "fester225" fester225x~xxgmail.com Date: Wed Mar 27, 2013 10:05 am ((PDT)) I bought a well worn Craftsman 10" lathe. The lead screw I can deal with, but how do repair the ways? There is a section where they are worn down more than .015" from flat. How do I add metal to the ways and make them flat again? ------- Re: Worn Craftsman 10" lathe Posted by: "James Irwin" jirwin1x~xxaustin.rr.com Date: Wed Mar 27, 2013 10:33 am ((PDT)) YIKES! Thatąs a lot of wear!! I donąt think thereąs any reasonable way (pun?) to fix this. Grinding is pretty darned expensive. Look around for a replacement bed. Used to be available fairly often. Jim Irwin ------- Re: Worn Craftsman 10" lathe Posted by: "Eggleston Lance" wheezer606x~xxverizon.net Date: Wed Mar 27, 2013 10:53 am ((PDT)) Look into Moglice. It's a material used to repair machine ways. lance ------- Re: Worn Craftsman 10" lathe Posted by: anthrhodesx~xxaol.com Date: Wed Mar 27, 2013 9:07 pm ((PDT)) Lance, Moglice is inappropriate for this problem. It's relatively soft and used on the bottom of the carriage where it's not directly exposed to chips and abrasives, the way wipers are supposed to remove any such materials. On top of the bed ways it will have the abrasive materials lying on top of the Moglice and they will be driven into the soft material by the motion of the carriage. It's not my lathe so the owner can do what he wishes, just a note to the wise. Anthony Berkeley, Calif. ------- Re: Worn Craftsman 10" lathe Posted by: "Doc" n8as1x~xxaol.com docn8as Date: Wed Mar 27, 2013 2:01 pm ((PDT)) fwiw ..chuck up & take a light (few thou only or it chatters) cut on at one inch + bar 6-8 in long W/OUT the tailstock center (unless you have indicated in the t/stock dead on) & SEE how much variation there is... easier to do on aluminum or brass.....it wud be much less than a thou, closer to 1/2 thou.....for most HSM work, that is more than adequate ....for tight dimensions, you will probably be finishing w/ abrasive to hit it dead on anyway ..in industry, they finish tight dim. at the cyllindrical grinder to get a good accurate finish ... if the worn area is of any length, work done in that area may only show variation of 1 tenth or two ....of course the smaller the bar, the more variation .....if your trig is up to snuff, trig out how much less of a cut is taken on a one inch bar w/ the tool dropping 15 thou....you will be surprised ....one more thing, if you use a follower rest & set up at a highpoint, as the carriage drops into the worn area, the rest will pull the work down allowing the bit to continue cutting full doc ...near all variation can be taken out this way when cutting a long bar .....it's a "work around" & we all wud like a lathe w/out heavy wear. Amen! now that said, take your time looking for another bed, or a lathe in better condition..unless your lifelong best friend has a large surface grinder & the experience to use it, forget abt repairing the bed ....a seriously flawed choice for a well worn atlas /crftsmn, or any light 9,10,12 HSM type lathe in "near plumb wore out " condition. FWIW #2 ...i have a 24 in bed you can have for pick up, 60 mi north of nashville ...IIRC, hardly any bed wear in front of chuck, BUT wear where the tailstock rides near end of the bed .....came out of a starter generator shop ...lots of t/stock movement but not much use of carriage ....vertical tailstock off center is nowhere as damaging to accuracy as is horizontal off center. best wishes doc ------- Removing the spindle on a 10107403 [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: "grandpa1norton" norton73commandox~xxyahoo.com Date: Tue Jul 16, 2013 7:09 pm ((PDT)) Im trying to remove the collar from the left end of the spindle and it will not move. I assume that since it lacks flats for a wrench this would be hand tightened. It appears to have right hand threads. The reason I'm trying to remove the spindle is to replace the belt and check the integrity of the bearings. Also the pull pin on the bull gear refuses to engage into the pulley. Any tricks, tips or suggestions would be greatly appreciated. P.S. I have removed the slotted set screw from the collar. ------- Re: Removing the spindle on a 10107403 Posted by: "Dennes Forsmo" omsrofx~xxgmail.com Date: Tue Jul 16, 2013 7:43 pm ((PDT)) I have a 6x18 craftsman 101.07301. I don't know what a 10107403 is but here http://www.deansphotographica.com/machining/atlas/spindle/spindle.html is a link that talks about spindle removal for my lathe. It may help you. As I recall my lathe has a threaded collar to left of gear in 1st picture and i had to use a small pipe wrench to get that collar off as the threads on shaft had been bunged up. Hope this helps Dennes Forsmo ------- Re: Removing the spindle on a 10107403 Posted by: wa5cabx~xxcs.com Date: Tue Jul 16, 2013 9:53 pm ((PDT)) Norton, First, there is a brass pellet in the bottom of the collar's set screw hole. Its purpose is to prevent the set screw from damaging the threads on the spindle. Don't lose it. You can use a pipe wrench but you will probably damage the OD of the collar. What I did was bought a pin spanner of the proper diameter and with a 1/4" diameter pin. I removed the pin and drilled the hole on through. Then used a 1/4" socket head cap screw to attach the spanner to the collar. Be sure that the screw is long enough to have several threads engaged but not long enough to touch the pellet. The hard part is keeping the spindle from turning. The collars on the Atlas lathes with Timken bearings are used to set the spindle bearing preload. As the left bearing always seems to be a tight fit on the spindle, moving them that two teeth gets them quite tight. The usual suggestion for holding the spindle is to pinch the spindle belt together or to use a cut old belt around the largest pulley groove. However, if you can't engage the bull gear pin, that won't work. The other suggestion I've seen but not had to try is to put a plastic or leather strap wrench around the bull gear. The two things you DON'T want to do are to use the indexing pin in the gear or (assuming you could engage the bull gear pin) engage the back gears (which locks up the spindle). You'll bend the index pin and you may well break teeth out of the bull gear or small back gear. On engaging the pin, if you don't know where the hole in the pulley is, slack the spindle belt, press on the pin so that it is against the pulley, and rotate the pulley until the pin suddenly drops into the hole. If this doesn't work, your best bet is to go ahead with loosening the collar and remove the spindle. Then you should be able to see what the problem is. For knowing where the hole in the pulley is, years ago I marked mine with a center punch. However, I have a 3996 with underdrive and there is a wide flat area on the pulley next to the gear. You'll need to be a little more careful doing something similar on the 4-step pulley. Robert Downs - Houston wa5cab dot com (Web Store) MVPA 9480 ------- Re: Removing the spindle on a 10107403 Posted by: "Dennes Forsmo" omsrofx~xxgmail.com Date: Wed Jul 17, 2013 8:33 am ((PDT)) Hi Robert, I seem to recall when I removed the spindle on my 101.07301 the 4 step largest pulley has 4 holes to engage the lock pin- 90 degrees apart as I recall. I don't have the bull gear with me but have a vague memory that one of the bull gear engaging holes was lined up with the oil hole in the large 4 step pulley. All this from memory as I didn't take any pictures of parts after I disassembled and they are now in TN. Dennes Forsmo ------- Re: Removing the spindle on a 10107403 Posted by: wa5cabx~xxcs.com Date: Wed Jul 17, 2013 8:20 pm ((PDT)) I guess that's possible. The spindle pulley on my 3996 has two holes x~xx 180 deg. I must obviously have known this once upon a time as both are marked. However, there is no particular angular relation between them and the oil hole. I'd guess that the angle between the oil hole and the pin hole nearest to it is around 55 deg. While I'm thinking about it, if your spindle pulley bushings haven't been oiled in a while, don't just put a couple of squirts of oil in the hole, install the plug, and go to using the back gears. I haven't used mine in a while. While turning the spindle with the pin pulled looking for a 3rd and 4th hole, I noticed that the spindle didn't turn very freely and the pulley wanted to continue to turn with it. It took about 10 minutes of filling the hole, holding the pulley, and turning the spindle until the hole emptied before I got things freed up again. I'm going to make a pressure oiler so that I can squirt more than a few drops of oil at a time into the bushings. 1/4-20 hose barb with an inch of rubber hose that the squirt can nozzle is a snug fit in. Robert Downs - Houston wa5cab dot com (Web Store) MVPA 9480 ------- Re: Removing the spindle on a 10107403 Posted by: "grandpa1norton" norton73commandox~xxyahoo.com Date: Sat Jul 20, 2013 6:07 pm ((PDT)) Well, I finally found the time to remove the spindle and it went smoothly. I used Robert's idea with the bolt and a spanner wrench. It worked great. I took the setscrew out of the inside collar and used a long 1/4 inch bolt to hold the spindle. I was pleasantly surprised at the condition of the roller bearings and the bushings in the step pulley. The problem I had with the bull gears pull pin not engaging was the detent pin was extended up blocking the hole. Apparently I pulled the pin beyond the limit. I marked the location of the holes in the step pulley with a small file. Thanks to Robert and Dennes for the great tips. ------- cross slide screw on the saddle removal [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: "jerster1959" jerster1959x~xxyahoo.com Date: Thu Aug 1, 2013 7:51 am ((PDT)) Hi again. The cross-slide screw on the saddle. I want to remove the assembly to polish and or rechrome the handle along with the indicator. How does it removed? The part close to the saddle has three hole that looks like a spanner wrench attaches and maybe spins off. Is it threaded on? Or do I push it toward the apron to remove? ------- Re: cross slide screw on the saddle removal Posted by: wa5cabx~xxcs.com wa5cab Date: Thu Aug 1, 2013 9:11 am ((PDT)) You didn't say what model you have but if all that you want to remove is the crank and dial: Remove smaller nut on end of screw. Slide off crank. Remove Woodruff key. Remove shakeproof washer (if present) and larger nut. Slide off dial, bushing and (if present) flat washer. If you want to remove the screw, before doing the above crank the cross slide all the way to the rear and remove it from the saddle. I would first remove the compound to reduce weight but you don't have to. Then do the first five steps The fiduciary/front bearing screws into the saddle. Remove with a pin spanner if you actually need to. In either case, remove the screw and (if present) gear. When you reinstall, you adjust the end float of the feed screw by adjusting the larger nut against the dial, tightening the smaller nut, and checking. If too loose or tight, loosen the smaller nut, adjust th larger nut slightly, re-tighten the smaller nut and recheck until you have it to your satisfaction. Same basic procedure applies to the tailstock (except no dial and bushing unless you added one) and to the compound except that the fiduciary/ bearing plate is attached with two screws. Note that some of the parts drawings do not show the large nut and some do not show the shakeproof washer. The nut has to be present. I don't know about the washer. Maybe it was a late addition. Robert Downs - Houston wa5cab dot com (Web Store) MVPA 9480 ------- Re: cross slide screw on the saddle removal Posted by: "Jon Elson" elsonx~xxpico-systems.com Date: Thu Aug 1, 2013 9:26 am ((PDT)) Remove the two nuts in the center of the handle. Loosen the setscrew and remove the graduated dial. Remove the slotted screw on the top back of the cross slide. Now, the screw/nut assembly will just slide out the back of the carriage. Jon ------- Re: cross slide screw on the saddle removal Posted by: wa5cabx~xxcs.com wa5cab Date: Thu Aug 1, 2013 11:58 am ((PDT)) > I think I have this " fiduciary/front bearing screws into the saddle. > Remove with a pin spanner ". if I use a spanner do I turn it counter > clockwise? is it threaded with right hand threads? Sorry, yes. I meant to go back and add that the threads are right hand. Robert Downs - Houston ------- Re: cleaning/painting quick change gearbox [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: larrybrandon1953x~xxhotmail.ca Date: Sat Aug 31, 2013 4:23 pm ((PDT)) I have purchased a 12" Atlas with quick change gearbox. I want to remove the quick change gearbox to clean and paint. Any ideas how I should go about this, and what I should look for? Thanks ------- Re: cleaning/painting quick change gearbox Posted by: "Guenther Paul" paulguenterx~xxatt.net Date: Sat Aug 31, 2013 4:29 pm ((PDT)) The best would be if you go to the file and look at the parts break down. Also you may find a good preserved spot of paint you can use to get the proper color mixed. Sherwin Williams has a good industrial paint. GP ------- Re: cleaning/painting quick change gearbox Posted by: "Jon Elson" elsonx~xxpico-systems.com Date: Sat Aug 31, 2013 7:08 pm ((PDT)) The trick with the 12" is one or two of the screws are UNDER the thread chart. You have to remove the drive screws that hold the chart on to access the screws. Fine diagonal cutters can be used to grip the "screws" and pull them out with a twisting motion. After you get to the screws, the rest should be obvious. You remove the right-side leadscrew bracket, and pull the leadscrew out to the right. Depending on model, a gear may drop out of the QC box when the screw is pulled. If it has the overtorque clutch, that won't happen. You have to remove a setscrew that bears on the leadscrew to remove it. Jon ------- Re: cleaning/painting quick change gearbox Posted by: wa5cabx~xxcs.com Date: Sat Aug 31, 2013 8:34 pm ((PDT)) ? You didn't give your model number (or name) and given experience I won't assume you actually have an Atlas badged unit and not a Craftsman/Atlas. Give us the lathe model number or send me direct a photo of the machine showing a good view of the QCGB and headstock. Yahoo just totally screwed up the web site and it is virtually impossible now to find photos or files online. Although the installation manuals of the three QCGB models are in the Group's Files section, I'm not sure that anyone can find them. When I know which one you need, I'll send it to you direct. Robert & Susan Downs - Houston wa5cab dot com (Web Store) MVPA 9480 ------- Re: cleaning/painting quick change gearbox Posted by: "Rexarino" rexarinox~xxgmail.com Date: Sun Sep 1, 2013 12:36 am ((PDT)) This might get you to the files section http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/atlas_craftsman/files/Manuals%2C%20At las%20or%20Atlas-Craftsman%20Lathes From there you can peruse all the possibilities, OR, you can give Robert enough info that he can direct you to the correct file Rex Bosse Portland, Oregon ------- TH54 spindle disassembly Posted by: "PY1NB - Felipe Ceglia" felipeceglia2x~xxgmail.com Date: Sun Sep 22, 2013 9:10 am ((PDT)) Hello gurus, please some advice! I don't know how to properly disassemble the spindle for the TH54: http://picpaste.com/spindle.png (link to its exploded view) The end collars should be threaded, but they have no faces to which a wrench could grip to. I could try a pipe wrench, but it would be terrible. (sorry my imprecise english) I have made some progress cleaning the parts. You can check some pictures here: https://plus.google.com/photos/111512966454328879960/alb ums/5925726231078502961 Thanks, Felipe Ceglia ------- Re: TH54 spindle disassembly Posted by: wa5cabx~xxcs.com Date: Mon Sep 23, 2013 11:11 pm ((PDT)) Felipe, If you haven't already done so, you should go to the Atlas_Craftsman_Projects Group and download the Atlas Technical Bulletin on the 10" headstock. It is under Repairs and Maintenance/Tech Bulletins. However, it doesn't tell you how to get the one threaded collar loose. Only the collar on the left end of the spindle is threaded. The inboard one has two set screws. If you cannot get the threaded one loose without using a pipe wrench, you need to find a Pin Spanner that fits the collar diameter, drill out or press out the pin, and replace it with a 1/4"-20 cap screw (bolt). Remove the set screw from the collar and attach the spanner to the collar with the screw (make sure that the screw does not touch the brass plug in the bottom of the collar's tapped hole). Slack the spindle belt, put it on the largest pulley groove and lock the spindle by squeezing the belt. If you have already cut the belt off, use the cut belt (wrapped around the pulley. If you cannot find a proper size pin spanner to modify, use a piece of flat bar 1/2" thick and wide enough to bore a hole in that will just slip over the collar. Drill a 1/4" hole for the screw through the side of the bar into the large hole. Use the bar as a wrench. But do not use a pin spanner with a pin small enough to fit in the tapped hole in the collar or you will ruin the threads in the collar. Once you have the collar off, follow the instructions in the Bulletin. Note that a better way to pull the spindle through the headstock is with a threaded rod through the spindle, a receiver tube over the right end of the spindle, and necessary nuts and washers. But the method in the Bulletin will work. Robert Downs - Houston wa5cab dot com (Web Store) MVPA 9480 ------- Re: TH54 spindle disassembly Posted by: "PY1NB - Felipe Ceglia" felipeceglia2x~xxgmail.com Date: Tue Sep 24, 2013 8:27 am ((PDT)) Thanks again, Robert! I removed it using a flat bar and screw! 73, Felipe ------- traverse gear [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: "gebell1301" gary_bellx~xxhotmail.com Date: Thu Oct 17, 2013 2:24 pm ((PDT)) Just bought and installed a new traverse gear (part #9-102-12S) for my 10107403. Unfortunately I now have more play in the carriage than I did with the old gear. Does anyone know the specifications for the gear. Carriage handwheel now has about a inch of slop in it. Before I complain to the manufacturer I'd like to make sure the part is out of spec. ------- Re: traverse gear Posted by: "Guenther Paul" paulguenterx~xxatt.net Date: Thu Oct 17, 2013 5:27 pm ((PDT)) Gabell did you ajust the traverse gear housing? GP ------- Re: traverse gear Posted by: "gebell1301" gary_bellx~xxhotmail.com Date: Fri Oct 18, 2013 8:30 am ((PDT)) Didn't know the traverse gear housing could be adjusted. Mine has two pins which locates the absolute position of the housing. Am I missing something? Thanks ------- Re: traverse gear Posted by: anthrhodesx~xxaol.com Date: Fri Oct 18, 2013 9:42 am ((PDT)) gebell1301 (?), That gear is used twice, on the inboard end of the hand wheel shaft and on the inboard end of the second shaft where it meshes with the rack. Did you replace the first, the second, or both? New or used stock? With the apron removed or the carriage off of the bed, how much play is there between the gear on the hand wheel shaft and the 24 tooth gear with which it meshes? More difficult to determine, the same for the mesh between the gear on the second shaft and the rack. Have you done any grinding or scraping on the bed or the bottom of the carriage? Either or both of these would lower the rack gear and create more clearance, therefore more backlash. Have you lowered the apron relative to the carriage? This would also increase the backlash at the rack. Did you make any changes to the bores or bearings which support the hand wheel shaft or the second shaft. First would increase clearance and backlash between first two gears, second would increase clearance and backlash at both junctions. The point here is to determine where the excess backlash is occurring and what brought it about. Anthony Berkeley, Calif. ------- Re: traverse gear Posted by: "mertnedp" pdentremont1x~xxcogeco.ca Date: Fri Oct 18, 2013 4:20 pm ((PDT)) My traverse gear case had slots to allow adjustment for the distance from the last gear to the rack. Pierre ------- carriage hand shaft [atlas618lathe] Posted by: jlucasemailx~xxgmail.com Date: Sun Oct 13, 2013 10:41 am ((PDT)) My carriage handshaft M6-67 is badly worn. Both the shaft and hole in the saddle. Impossible to turn smoothly because of the slop. For the shaft I could either make a new one or turn down the shaft and insert it into a sleeve. Any ideas on dealing with the worn hole in the carriage? I think it needs opening up and inserting a sleeve bearing but have no idea how to go about this. Thanks ------- Re: carriage hand shaft Posted by: migueldeservantesysaavedrax~xxyahoo.com Date: Sat Oct 19, 2013 4:49 pm ((PDT)) I would consider using a needle bearing on the place where the bushing once was! They are very easy to lube and last way way longer than anything else! Good luck! ------- Re: carriage hand shaft Posted by: wa5cabx~xxcs.com Date: Sat Oct 19, 2013 7:10 pm ((PDT)) I don't know of anyone who has an original drawing of the apron. You might try calling Clausing and see whether they will send it to you. They probably have it so the answer will depend upon whether they still have any replacement aprons to sell. If they don't, they'll probably send it. If you can't find the drawing, all that you can do is to use the existing hole for location. Get the original shaft diameter off of the unworn area on the old shaft. Pick up the original hole center by assuming that the wear on the bore of the old hole is mostly between 3:30 and 8:30. Assuming that you are going to use a mill or a good drill press with X-Y table, mount the apron parallel to the table. Turn a piece of steel round bar about .002" or .003" dia. larger than the original shaft. Mount the bar in the mill or drill press chuck and by jockeying the table around, get the bar just touching the sides of the hole in the apron in the 9:30 to 2:30 arc. Lock the table in that position and bore the hole out to fit the bushing or needle bearing that you are going to use. Robert D. ------- Re: carriage hand shaft Posted by: anthrhodesx~xxaol.com Date: Sun Oct 20, 2013 7:40 am ((PDT)) J. Lucas (and others), The apron on the 618 is not detachable from the carriage, it's a single casting. That does make it difficult to position and steady the unit for such an operation. If you're going to do this it would be worthwhile if you could somehow determine the slack between the rack gear and the rack, followed by determining the slack between the hand wheel gear and the gear with which it meshes, then deal with both at one time. I have no suggestions on how to do this. If you came up with a procedure please post it to the group. I'm attaching a photo of the inside of the carriage-apron, looking from inside the bed area towards the operator (photo courtesy of Tony Griffiths' web site). Anthony Berkeley, Calif. ------- Re: carriage hand shaft Posted by: jlucasemailx~xxgmail.com Date: Tue Nov 12, 2013 5:59 pm ((PST)) Thanks for everyone's help, and sorry to be so long getting back to you. First the hand wheel shaft M6-67. Almost all the wear was in the cast saddle, wheel shaft was light only 2 or 3 thou. So, I drilled the hole out to 0.5". The saddle would not fit on my mini drill press so I used a cordless hand drill working up by 1/16ths. The drill has a clutch that I set quite soft so my wrist would not break when the drill seized up (often!!). Next I could fit a 1/2" brass bushing with the 3/8 hole for the shaft drilled off-centre. By rotating the bushing I could adjust the mesh with the gear behind M6-102. Once in place a drop of Locktite. Feels good with just a bit of free play. Now for the engagement of M6-68 and the track. What with wear on the pinion gear and lowering of the gear when the bed was leveled there is very poor engagement and very rough motion. My first option is to replace M6-68. This gear is cut with a short 3/8 shaft attached (just like the hand wheel shaft). It can be punched out of the square hole in the centre of M6-102. I did not find one in decent condition but someone suggested using a handwheel shaft, cutting it short and filing a square end. Have one on order and will report back when replaced. If that is insufficient I might be crazy enough to undertake lowering the carriage rack. I very much hope this won't be necessary. ------- Re: carriage hand shaft Posted by: jlucasemailx~xxgmail.com Date: Fri Nov 22, 2013 7:20 pm ((PST)) The handwheel shaft came and I milled 4 flats and cut to length. Pressed on the larger gear. To improve engagement with the rack I drilled out the holes for the screws holding the gear assembly. Also filed off the threads from the retaining screws near the screw head. That way the assembly could be moved up. Not too bad, a few rough spots down near the chuck where the rack is worn. That's it. I think only so much can be done with these old machines. I'd previously levelled the bed and trued the edges and bottom of same. Made a new lead screw for the cross slide. Too much work. Not enough making models! ------- Rebuilding Craftsman 101.7403 ways [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: jonsmptrx~xxmsn.com Date: Mon Nov 18, 2013 8:23 am ((PST)) Hi, My question to the group is: has anyone rebuilt their 101.xxx by switching the head stock position to the opposite end of the ways? From what I can see there isn't much to swapping ends. Relocate the carriage travel rack, Change ends with the feet and locate, drill and tap holes for the end support for the lead screw. I would appreciate any information on this idea. Thanks Jon S Waldport Oregon ------- Re: Rebuilding Craftsman 101.7403 ways Posted by: "Charles" xlch58x~xxswbell.net Date: Mon Nov 18, 2013 9:15 am ((PST)) If you check the archives [and earlier in this text file], this has been discussed a lot over the years and as I recall actually done at least once. There are a number of issues and given the flat ways, probably not much savings over correcting the ways themselves. Charles ------- Re: Rebuilding Craftsman 101.7403 ways Posted by: "Doc" n8as1x~xxaol.com docn8as Date: Mon Nov 18, 2013 2:25 pm ((PST)) FWIW before you go further, you may want to consider this ..... recent recalculations confirmed what i remember from a number of years back ... TEN thou of bed wear diferential affects the cut on a one inch bar only TWO TENTHS ...thinner bars of course are more affected....BUT w/ thinner bars if you use a follow rest, when you come toward the headstock from the unworn area, as the carriage drops the follower rest pulls the bar down w/ the carriage thus mitigation the depth of cut discrepancy ... reality is the bed can look & be badly worn & for most purposes, the only thing seriously affected is the aesthetics. how often does one take an 18 in, 12 in or even an 8 in cut on a bar?? & if you do, use a follower. my 1918 monarch A & 1895 Reed have 9 thou dfference in bed height ...i can turn a one in. bar w/ in low tenths for 1/2 the bed length. put a dial indicator on the carriage & indicate off the inside way where the t/stock wud run & see how much change there is as you traverse & for how far ??...i have checked a 10 inch logan w/ 27 thou bed wear & in the first 12 inches there was less than 4 thou difference ....that translates to abt one tenth difference on a one inch bar. best wishes doc ------- Re: Rebuilding Craftsman 101.7403 ways Posted by: jonsmptrx~xxmsn.com Date: Mon Nov 18, 2013 6:08 pm ((PST)) Charles and Doc, Thanks for the information. Doc, I'll run a DI over the ways per your description. Charles, I've looked over this site and cannot locate the Archives - please advise. Thanks again. Jon S Waldport Oregon ------- NOTE TO FILE: With the drastic recent changes at Yahoo as to how groups operate, the searching of archives in many groups has been disrupted. Sometimes only a portion of the archives can be searched. Sometimes none. Consequently this site with its collection of key discussions over the years, gathered by subject, has become much more useful. ------- Boring bar chatter, loose cross-slide. Worn lathe bed? [atlas618lathe] Posted by: edglennemailx~xxyahoo.com Date: Mon Dec 16, 2013 10:42 am ((PST)) I tried to bore out a small motorcycle brake master cylinder (for a vintage motorcycle that you can't get replacements for). I'll see if I can add a picture: http://www.flickr.com/photos/92884721x~xxN05/11355609414/ Anyway, the cross-slide has so much play in it, that the workpiece wasn't solid. The lathe kept bogging down, and the boring bar chattered uncontrollably. This was for the metal insert, which I can JB Weld or Loctite into the bore, so the finished surface isn't a big deal. BUT, I won't be able to bore a 14mm bore into the insert with that much freeplay. I tried tightening the rear shim on the cross-slide, but then it's too tight to travel left & right, so I can't advance the workpeice (or use the lathe, for that matter). I'm thinking the lathe bed is worn out by the headstock, but don't know how to confirm it, OR fix it. Where do I start? ------- Re: Boring bar chatter, loose cross-slide. Worn lathe bed? Posted by: wa5cabx~xxcs.com Date: Mon Dec 16, 2013 2:37 pm ((PST)) Ed Glenn, First some terminology. The carriage (depending upon context) is either everything that moves left to right when you turn the handwheel or engage the halfnuts, or the bottom most component of that stack. The cross slide sits on the carriage and is the part that moves front to back as you turn the crossfeed crank. The compound normally sits on cross slide, but you have it removed and replaced by the milling attachment vise. As you already know, there is a bearing plate attached to the bottom of the carriage at the front and at the rear. They stick up under the edge of the ways and prevent the carriage from being lifted up and off of the ways. There should be a shim pack between these and where they attach to the bottom of the carriage. I assume this is the "rear shim" you referred to. The shims come in 0.002" and 0.003" thickness but I've no idea how many are in the two stacks on your machine. As in normal operation, the wear plates do not touch the ways, I would expect very little wear to the bottom of the ways. However, there is probably some on the top where the carriage rides. What thickness did you try removing? I would thoroughly clean the bottom of the rear way in the region where the carriage seldom operates. Over the years, a layer of varnish will tend to build up here. You can determine how much (if any) shim thickness you can remove by jacking up the rear of the carriage and measuring the clearance between the bottom of the carriage and the top of the ways with feeler gauges. Note that the carriage does not contact the ways across their full width. Meaure in the contact area. Besides cleaning the bottom of the ways and then adjusting the rear shim pack, you should also adjust the carriage and cross slide gibs. This is possibly the most ticklish adjustment on the lathe. Once you have the cross slide gib properly adjusted (drag slightly greater than with the screws backed off) and properly position for the boring job, you could lock up one of the gib screws. Also, I don't know the 618 that well but on the 10" and 12" machines, the milling attachment comes with one gib screw replaced by a T-handle screw for locking. If that is the case with the 6" and if the threads are the right size, you could replace one of the cross slide gib screws with a locking screw. A boring operation done the way you are doing it is an unusual operation on the lathe in that as the cutter points to the rear, it is trying to lift the workpiece, cross slide and carriage off of the ways. After you have done what you can with the rear wear plate, the only other thing I can think of to try is to remove the chip guard off of the rear of the cross slide and place weights on top of the rear of the carriage. Adding a few pounds may help with the chatter. If nothing else, it will lower the resonant frequency of the system, which may help. Be sure you securely attach the weight piece(s) to the carriage. Robert D. - Houston wa5cab dot com (Web Store) MVPA 9480 ------- Too much wear in lathe/cross-slide. What now? [atlas618lathe] Posted by: edglennemailx~xxyahoo.com Date: Wed Jan 29, 2014 10:19 am ((PST)) I inherited an Atlas 618 (Craftsman label) from my father. When I tried to bore a motorcycle brake cylinder (14mm hole) with a boring bar, it chattered too much, resulting in a very poor cut. I line-bored it, using the tail-stock to support the other end of the boring bar. There was only about 5" of total travel, so there wasn't any deflection of the bar. The problem was the cross-slide assembly (which had the work piece attached with an aluminum bracket). It was visibly moving, as the boring bar chattered. So, how do I find out where the wear is, and what do I do about it? I assume the bed & ways must have some wear. Also, the cross-slide carriage must be worn, including the gibs, etc. But, what do I do about it? The lathe is useless with that much deviation and wear. What do I measure? Where do I start? Thanks ------- Re: Too much wear in lathe/cross-slide. What now? Posted by: edglennemailx~xxyahoo.com Date: Wed Jan 29, 2014 1:38 pm ((PST)) This is a picture of the lathe setup, before I tried to bore the cylinder: http://www.flickr.com/photos/92884721x~xxN05/11355609414/ ------- Re: Too much wear in lathe/cross-slide. What now? Posted by: "EDWARD PAUCH" eop007x~xxshaw.ca Date: Wed Jan 29, 2014 1:38 pm ((PST)) Do any or all of the following: -Tighten the gib adjusting screws -Replace the cross feed nut -Replace one gib adjusting screw with a longer screw, with a welded-on "T handle" so you can lock the cross slide after setting the cut - Release before resetting for next cut, of course. Works for me. ------- Re: Too much wear in lathe/cross-slide. What now? Posted by: wa5cabx~xxcs.com wa5cab Date: Wed Jan 29, 2014 8:03 pm ((PST)) The Atlas part number for the T-handle gib locking screw is M6-508. Last year, the equivalent 9-508 for the 9", 10" and 12" cost $8.96 new from Clausing. Robert Downs - Houston wa5cab dot com (Web Store) MVPA 9480 ------- Re: Too much wear in lathe/cross-slide. What now? Posted by: miner_49rx~xxyahoo.com Date: Thu Jan 30, 2014 3:28 pm ((PST)) Check the adjustment of the gibs on the back of the carriage. My Olde Dad's were loose when I received it. ------- Backlash adjustment on compound and cross slide [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: mark2382x~xxhotmail.com markjohanhatch Date: Tue Mar 11, 2014 8:33 am ((PDT)) Just wanted to check on whether I am doing something wrong.... And if not, why I am getting movement on my cross slide. 1. It appears that the way to adjust the backlash on both the compound and crossslide is to run the inner nut on the handle up to just before the point it binds, and then tighten the outer nut (the one that keeps the handle on). After doing this on the compound, I seem to get ~ .006 backlash. Is this the proper procedure? 2. When trying to do this on the crossslide, I still seem to have some back and forth movement when I grab the cross slide and move it in and out by hand. Haven't put a dial indicator on it, but it is pretty noticeable. Wouldn't be surprised if I had .025 -.075 of movement. (There is no similar detectable movement on the compound). I tightened up the screw holding the crossfeed nut and if I go a little more than tight on the inner nut I can pretty much reduce this movement. But it binds a little then. Mark ------- Re: Backlash adjustment on compound and cross slide Posted by: ksierensx~xxmsn.com Date: Tue Mar 11, 2014 8:40 am ((PDT)) There are two things that will show up as backlash. One is the play at the end of the screw as you describe. The other is the slop in the thread at the nut. You are right about the adjustment for the end play on the lead screws, and other than replacing the nut, there is not much else you can do, but backlash is normal in most all machines. You just need to remember to always advance in the same direction so you take up the backlash. I will check my lathe at home, but it does sound like an excessive amount of backlash. I thought mine was more like 0.006 in the cross slide. ------- Re: Backlash adjustment on compound and cross slide Posted by: "Scott Henion" shenionx~xxshdesigns.org Date: Tue Mar 11, 2014 8:52 am ((PDT)) Yes, that is right. I had 0.035" play in my cross slide. It is wear in the nut. I found an old nut in the parts that came with the lathe. So, 2 nuts in 70 years does not seem not too bad. I added bronze washers to both the compound and cross slides. This allowed me to tighten them up a bit more. Seems chips get in the surfaces and make them rough. It really made a difference. Cleaning up the slides and gibbs made them slide real easy (lots of dried oil in there). The gibbs can now be run tighter for less play. The bronze washer mod is here: http://shdesigns.org/Craftsman-12x36/crossmod.shtml Brass will work too. After the mods, I get less than 0.006" play. I purchased the new cross nut off ebay for $35. CLausing will probably have them too. If you use the milling attachment, a new nut and the cross mod will make a big difference. Otherwise just account for the play by always setting the slides by turning toward the work. If you go too far, back off a turn and go forward again. Scott G. Henion, Stone Mountain, GA Craftsman 12x36 lathe: http://shdesigns.org/Craftsman12x36 Welding pages and homemade welder: http://shdesigns.org/Welding ------- Re: Backlash adjustment on compound and cross slide Posted by: mail4samx~xxgmail.com a8050266 Date: Tue Mar 11, 2014 1:07 pm ((PDT)) Yes, I agree with Scott. His solution will prove to be a huge improvement. If you're looking/willing able to do such an improvement the only thing I might add is, instead of a brass/bronze style thrust washer, just make the leap to a real thrust bearing. This is what I did on my machine. And, can be seen here. http://thesn1per.blogspot.com/2013/05/atlas-lathe-thrust-bearing-mod.html Whatever you do we all love pics and information. "We will wait to hear your solution." S ------- Re: Backlash adjustment on compound and cross slide Posted by: mark2382x~xxhotmail.com markjohanhatch Date: Tue Mar 11, 2014 7:31 pm ((PDT)) Thanks all! I am going to start with a new crossfeed nut and see if I can at least get it back to original spec. After that, I think that the larger dial and at least the washer makes sense. But that thrust bearing mod really is very tempting.... Mark ------- Re: Backlash adjustment on compound and cross slide Posted by: "Guenther Paul" paulguenterx~xxatt.net Date: Tue Mar 11, 2014 8:28 pm ((PDT)) You may find after replacing the nut the backlash is still present. The cross feed screw is mostly used in the center of it. You also need a new screw. GP ------- Re: Backlash adjustment on compound and cross slide Posted by: jerdalx~xxsbcglobal.net jtiers Date: Tue Mar 11, 2014 7:41 pm ((PDT)) A third item that causes backlash is the nut being loosely held.... not screwed down/held tightly. And backlash is not all that bad.... it's pretty much a fact of life, and if you really can get it down to 0.006", as I saw in one post, that's virtually new condition. Jerry ------- Re: Backlash adjustment on compound and cross slide Posted by: mark2382x~xxhotmail.com markjohanhatch Date: Wed Mar 12, 2014 7:12 am ((PDT)) Now that you mention it, there is more movement of the cross slide in the middle of its travel. (When I shake the cross slide in its out position, there is less movement (maybe .010 or) than when the cross slide is nearer the inside (maybe .050 or so)). Thanks for that warning. I hope that I can avoid replacing that one too. Mark ------- Re: Backlash adjustment on compound and cross slide Posted by: wa5cabx~xxcs.com wa5cab Date: Wed Mar 12, 2014 8:20 am ((PDT)) Mark, Unfortunately, AFAIK those figures indicate differential wear on the screw. Depending slightly on what the actual shape of the worn threads is, a new nut isn't going to improve that much if at all. If it does improve it any (meaning reduce the .040" difference), the improvement will be relatively short lived because the nut will wear more quickly in the .050 region because the corners of the ID of the threads in the nut would be all that's touching the threads on the screw. Robert Downs - Houston wa5cab dot com (Web Store) MVPA 9480 ------- Re: Backlash adjustment on compound and cross slide Posted by: wa5cabx~xxcs.com Date: Fri Mar 14, 2014 3:45 pm ((PDT)) Mark, OK. No problem. You aren't in the wrong place, then. :-) Unless you don't have and can't get a dial indicator, trying to measure the individual threads is pretty much a waste of time. The dial indicator or for that matter the feed screw dial will directly tell you the magnitude of the back lash that you can feel. Since the machine is an Atlas, you adjust out the feed screw end float by loosening the nut that hold the crank on and tightening or loosening the thin nut bahind the crank. You will need a fairly thin pattern open end wrench for the adjusting nut and a box end one for the lock nut. You should be able to get the screw end float to very nearly zero, and you want to do that before taking any measurements. And the compound feed screw end float is adjusted in the same manner. Robert Downs - Houston wa5cab dot com (Web Store) MVPA 9480 ------- Tailstock height adjustment? [atlas618lathe] Posted by: troubleindc2x~xxyahoo.com Date: Mon Mar 24, 2014 6:34 pm ((PDT)) Aligning my head and tail stock. The tailstock is right at 0.003" higher than the head. Anyone have any recommendations? ------- Re: Tailstock height adjustment? Posted by: migueldeservantesysaavedrax~xxyahoo.com Date: Mon Mar 24, 2014 7:51 pm ((PDT)) I imagine that If in a pinch, I would clean the ways of the table and put some of those strips of 120 grit sand paper so I can run the tail stock back and forth on a film o 40 weight engine oil so I can control the rate at the speed that the sand paper is planing "eating" the height of the tail stock! I guess it is that or to pay to a large and very well equipped machine shop to do it for me??? ------- Re: Tailstock height adjustment? Posted by: wa5cabx~xxcs.com wa5cab Date: Mon Mar 24, 2014 11:26 pm ((PDT)) Don't worry about it. Copied below is some email traffic off of the main A_C group from year before last. From the simplified approximation, the error or difference in diameter from end to end of a 1/2" diameter part being turned between centers with a .003" tailstock height error and zero offset error is 0.000036" or 36 micro-inches. For those who don't recognize it, the tilde (~) means "approximately equals", Robert Downs - Houston wa5cab dot com (Web Store) MVPA 9480 In a message dated 10/25/2012, vachssx~xxyahoo.com writes: > A life misspent doing math yields a much simpler approximation to this > under the usual circumstance in which Eh < easier to estimate errors without a calculator that way. In atlas_craftsmanx~xxyahoogroups.com, wa5cabx~xx... wrote: >>The equation for calculating the radial error due to a vertical error at >>the tailstock turns out to be quite simple (assuming I figured it and >>transcribed it correctly). >>Er = r - (r * (COS(ARC SIN( Eh/r))) >>where r is part radius, Er is radius error and Eh is tailstock height >>error. Double the result for diameter. ------- Tailstock alignment [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: "L. Garlinghouse" lhghousex~xxsuddenlink.net Date: Sat Mar 29, 2014 7:03 pm ((PDT)) I finally got tired of trying to work around a poorly aligned taistock. I had played with alignment before but didn't fully understand what I was doing and the groove in the bottom of the quill made it impossible to get a bottom dead center reading, so I merely improved things but definitely did not cure anything. I got some improvement just eyeballing how the point on a center in my TS and a freshly turned center in the chuck lined up. Helpful but not enough. Then I accidentaly ran accross the following video on shaft alignment using a dial indicator. Before you align your tailstock my counsel would be to watch it at least once. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8A2kpOad4VA One of the key take-aways in the video is the "Validity Rule" which says that the sum of the top and the bottom reading = the sum of the two side readings. This means once I know the side 1 and the side 2 readings and the top reading I can calculate the bottom reading and the groove doesn't bother me a bit. So I used a Mighty Mag on the face of my chuck with a rod sticking out over the TS quill and hung my indicator on it and took my 3 readings: 9 O'clock, 12 O'clock and 3 O'clock and calculated the 6 O'clock reading. [Because I didn't need to take the 6 O'clock reading I didn't have to worry about my indicator clearing the saddle or the carriage.] Not surprisingly the business end of the quill was low and needed about a 0.003" shim. Beer can material was too thick by about 0.001" and I wasn't finding anything thinner until I measured a piece of aluminum foil and doubled it and stuck it between the headstock end of the upper and lower TS halves. Using the dial indicator I centered the quill in the side-to- side axis and Wow!! [In one of his posts, Doc mentioned he had used paper as shim stock on his Reed/Reid (?) TS, so that was going to be my fall back if I couldn't find something metallic or plastic.] Now when I drill using the TS the chips are pretty much the same size if the drill is correctly sharpened. This might be a diagnostic tool. If the cutting edges of the drill are horizontal and the chips are not the same size, then the TS is off horizontal center towards the side of the larger chip. Turning the drill 90 degreess so the cutting edges are perpendicular the larger chip will suggest you are either over or under center. Another thing worth mentioning is that splitting the TS was slightly difficult. I was finally assured myself that the 2 halves just pulled apart at 90 degrees to their mating surface. I moved things back and forth with a lead hammer and some penetrating oil and after some soak time followed by some careful prying I broke the surface tension of the oil that was holding everything together. Old oil does a good job of holding things together. Sort of like "wringing" gage blocks if you are familiar with that phenomenon. I also discovered that if the TS is sloppy between the ways, the gibs are adjustable. Clever. This is covered in the Atlas owner's manual, but who reads things like that . . . Wheee!!! Being a millwright is fun!!! L8r, L.H. in the southern Ozarks where daffodills are almost everywhere ... finally. ------- Re: Tailstock alignment Posted by: "Scott Henion" shenionx~xxshdesigns.org shdesigns2003 Date: Sat Mar 29, 2014 7:39 pm ((PDT)) I keep meaning to order some shim stock but just don't want to spend the money ;) My tailstock was about 0.006 low. I used some aluminum duct tape (HVAC tape). Basically sticky aluminum foil. If I remember right it was 0.002". So it is now close but still slightly low. I also find the HVAC tape is also good on the chuck jaws to prevent making marks in work. This was before I had a good dial indicator. I faced and center drilled a small hole in some stock in the chuck and then cut a 60 degree taper using a tool bit and the compound slide. That gave me a tapered hole centered in the spindle that is on exact center. I made a centering tool as described in the MIT videos. It is basically a dead center that has been cut in half. I turned a 1/2" bar then turned a 60 degree taper. It is then cut in half with a parting tool. I did drill one side then add a spring to hold it together. I placed the center in my drill chuck and advanced it to the stock in the chuck. The the tailstock can then be adjusted. You can easily feel 0.002" of a step in the two halves of the center. Running a fingernail over the step you can feel even less. As I was using a drill chuck to hold the center, I rotated it several times to check if any offset was in the chuck. The center is described here: http://shdesigns.org/Craftsman-12x36/tooling.shtml A simper way is to mount a piece of stock, turn to any size. Then, face and cut a 60 degree tapered hole (not with a drill but using the compound and sharp cutter). Then part the stock. Finally a regular dead center can be used in the tailstock to hold the parted off piece between the center and what is left of the stock. You can feel any offset easily. And, yes, drilling is much smoother after centering the tailstock. Scott G. Henion, Stone Mountain, GA Craftsman 12x36 lathe: http://shdesigns.org/Craftsman12x36 Welding pages and homemade welder: http://shdesigns.org/Welding ------- Re: Tailstock alignment Posted by: "Richard Schaal" rschaal_95135x~xxyahoo.com Date: Sun Mar 30, 2014 5:25 am ((PDT)) I have to wonder why you are using compressible material for shims? Duct tape? How much of that is sticky stuff? Sticky stuff is compressible, and so is paper. With the pressures encountered with a metal lathe, it doesn't make sense to me. Just askin' Richard ------- Re: Tailstock alignment Posted by: "Scott Henion" shenionx~xxshdesigns.org Date: Sun Mar 30, 2014 5:33 am ((PDT)) It is a very thin layer and already under a considerable clamping force by the bolt. Has not been a problem at all. ------- Re: Tailstock alignment Posted by: paulguenterx~xxatt.net Date: Sun Mar 30, 2014 6:21 am ((PDT)) Richard. The up and down alignment of a tail stock is not critical, It will not create a taper on your work piece. Yes it is best to have the up and down perfect but consider the wear on the bed. You will find that the up & down will vary depending where the tail stock is. Don't use tape or any other soft materials. If you like, try shims between the base and the upper part of your tail stock. I bet a brand new lathe is not 100% perfect. GP ------- Re: Tailstock alignment Posted by: "Sam Rod" mail4samx~xxgmail.com Date: Sun Mar 30, 2014 6:31 am ((PDT)) x~xx Richard and GP, I think in machinery, the goal is perfection. .0000000000000000000001 But since that's not realistic. we shoot for the best we can get. Either by skill or the equipment were using. I say do the best you can in any situation. Im sure an engineer will come along and add their "final say"; until then I shoot for the best I can. I say use what you can, and what you know. You're never wrong until the part doesn't fit or break. YMMV S ------- Re: Tailstock alignment Posted by: paulguenterx~xxatt.net Date: Sun Mar 30, 2014 7:47 am ((PDT)) Use and wear of a lathe is mostly on the first part of a lathe bed. The high of the tail stock will vary. That's just the nature of the machine. Are you going to align your tail stock every time? Of course not. Just like a mill. The wear is always in the center of the bed. If one wants all to be perfect it can't be done because some metals are abrasive (gray iron). Just get as close as you can and live with it. Up and down alignment will Not, I repeat will Not, create taper. GP ------- Re: Tailstock alignment Posted by: "Doc" n8as1x~xxaol.com docn8as Date: Sun Mar 30, 2014 10:35 am ((PDT)) FWIW...one other aspect of t/stock alignment may need to be considered... reaming a hole!!! last year i turned up abt 30 gear blanks .....getting a good fit on tapered arbors (abt 1.5 thou taper) required ME to make up D bits for 5 thou under & finish w/ adjustable reamers .......t/stock misalignment, bed twist, bed wear, bent reamers, whatever the h--- prevented me from reaming a hole much less than a thou over....i either had to bore to spec or use an adjustable reamer.....tried a floating reamer holder, & THAT WAS THE WORST. no experience there, & probably too loose. anyway, aligning the t/stock for the particular length of operation may be necessary for "dead nuts" accuracy. in my experience, reaming to size requires set up & trial length of time & effort prohibitive for anything xcept long runs. best wishes doc ------- 101.07403 cross slide power feed [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: "zertwizx~xxgmail.com" Date: Thu Apr 3, 2014 7:15 pm ((PDT)) I have a question about cross slide engagement; there's a pin that prevents both cross and transverse feed from engaging at the same time but I can't seem to see how it disengaged. The half nut shaft is round so there is nowhere for the safety to go so I can pull out the cross slide power feed knob. Any insights here? ------- Re: 101.07403 cross slide power feed Posted by: "Lance Eggleston" lance.egglestonx~xxme.com crashbone256 Date: Thu Apr 3, 2014 8:06 pm ((PDT)) Shaft 10F-129 has recesses in it. L6-263, 264, 265 fit between the half nut shaft and 10F-129 through the hole in the casting. The spring supplies the pressure to push the shaft into the recess. You need three hands and a lot of patience to install it. ------- Newbie: Got an old Craftsman lathe. What have I got? [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: johndhenleyx~xxbellsouth.net Date: Mon Apr 14, 2014 4:06 pm ((PDT)) I am so glad to find this forum. Glad to hear there is a group of old lathe fanatics out there. I won an auction for a beautiful little lathe last Friday and don't really know what I've got. It has a perfect grey finish and looks like it is brand new, maybe restored. There is a tag on the back that says Craftsman and 101.07403. The front side has metal stamping 14799. The bed rails are 36" long, and the distance from chuck to tailstock is only about 18". Is this called an 18" lathe or 36? None of the nuts or screws are buggered, paint is not chipped and it is really nice. It is still in the truck right now and I'm going to have to make a table to support it. Any help will be appreciated. ------- Re: Newbie: Got an old Craftsman lathe. What have I got? Posted by: "Scott Henion" shenionx~xxshdesigns.org Date: Mon Apr 14, 2014 4:20 pm ((PDT)) It will be an 12x18" model but many refer to them as the 36" bed, 12" lathe. I have documented much about the lathe including fixes, improvements and some projects done on my web site. There is a link in my signature. You want a very stiff table. Mine sits on a frame made from square steel tube. The beds on these flex easily, they need a stiff base to be bolted to for rigidity. Others have made a table surface out of 2x4's glued and with threaded rod to make a top 3.5" thick. Other use a bench with a steel plate. What came with it? There should at least be a set of change gears. The accessories get expensive to pick up later. Scott G. Henion, Stone Mountain, GA Craftsman 12x36 lathe: http://shdesigns.org/Craftsman12x36 Welding pages and homemade welder: http://shdesigns.org/Welding ------- Re: Newbie: Got an old Craftsman lathe. What have I got? Posted by: wa5cabx~xxcs.com wa5cab Date: Mon Apr 14, 2014 7:44 pm ((PDT)) John, as Scott wrote, it is a 12x18. Not too many of that size were built. 14799 is the serial number. The 12x18 (and 12x30) 101.07403's were made from 1940 to 1947. After that, Atlas built (and sears sold) only 12x24 and 12x36 models. Same model number. You have to differentiate the bed lengths with the catalog number. Yours would have been 101.07403-2073. Unfortunately, Sears didn't see fit to put the catalog number on the nameplate, which has led to some confusion over the decades. Robert Downs - Houston wa5cab dot com (Web Store) MVPA 9480 ------- aligning pulley and gears on 101.07403 [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: danial.swaffordx~xxyahoo.com Date: Sat May 31, 2014 8:14 am ((PDT)) He guys haven't been here in awhile, but got the lathe painted and back together. The problem I have is the proper alignment of the pulley and gears on the spindle shaft. I'm not sure what the right manual is for the 101.07403. All I see is the parts list in the manual section. Just not sure on how far the back gear needs to be away from the head stock, the back gear from the pulley and on down the shaft. V/R Dan ------- Re: aligning pulley and gears on 101.07403 Posted by: wa5cabx~xxcs.com wa5cab Date: Sat May 31, 2014 9:36 am ((PDT)) Dan, If you haven't already, download the Atlas Technical Bulletin on the 10" and early 12" from Files under Maintenance, Repairs and Tech Bulletins. The bulletin does not specifically mention the 12" but it is applicable. On Page 1, disregard the 6 steps following "On Vertical Countershaft Lathes". On Page 2, disregard Step 1. On Page 3, Spndle Adjustments, Paragraph 1 applies to positioning collar "F", pulley and bull gear on the spindle. "F" is just inside the headstock to the left of the small spindle gear - zoom in on the section view photo on Page 2 until you can see where the arrow head off of (F) points). Use of a feeler gauge is not mentioned and the way in which the pulley and bull gear are made generally precludes use of one between them. But you could slip one between the collar and the small gear. My machine currently has about .0035" clearance at that point. I would guess that anything between .002" and .004" should be OK. The Tech Bulletin doen't mention shims, but if there were any between the back gear brackets and the headstock, be sure that you replace them. To check lash between the back gears, use the same method as used with change gears (narrow strip of heavy typing paper fed in as you turn the spindle with back gears engaged. Robert Downs - Houston wa5cab dot com (Web Store) MVPA 9480 ------- CRAFTSMAN 101.21400 SPINDLE REMOVAL [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: w0cghx~xxarrl.net Date: Tue Jun 17, 2014 8:42 pm ((PDT)) Hi Y’all - - About five years ago while still living in Texas I bought a Craftsman 101.21400 lathe from the estate of a very old and close family friend who bought the lathe new about 1960 or 61. The lathe probably had less than 20 hours total on it, and had been stored covered for 20 years or more. While there’s not a speck of rust anywhere on the lathe, every drop of oil on or in the lathe is now totally dried up and sticky. Consequently, the lathe needs a total tear down, cleaning, relubricating, and reassembly. Due to retiring in Texas and subsequently moving back to South Dakota, I am only now starting the restoration process on the lathe. While they were firmly stuck down to the ways, removal of the tailstock and carriage was accomplished without too much trouble. The headstock, however, is another story, and removing the spindle for cleaning and relubricating has so far eluded me. The real sticking point (Pun definitely intended!!) is removing the gear from the far left end of the spindle. The threaded collar holding this gear on the keyed spindle has been removed, but all efforts to remove the gear have failed because the dried oil has stuck the gear firmly to the spindle. I have two ideas that I haven’t tried yet and wondered if anyone has any other suggestions. My first idea is to put the entire headstock into solvent, but as dry as the oil is, I’m not sure that any of the solvent can work its way between the gear and keyed spindle to do any good. My other idea is to cautiously apply a bit of heat to the threaded end of the spindle in an attempt to soften the dried oil holding the gear on without warping the spindle itself. Once the gear is removed, I "should" be able to drive the spindle and Timken bearings out using a block of wood and a hammer. Does anyone have any thoughts on either of these ideas or have a better solution?? Brad Rapid City, SD ------- Re: CRAFTSMAN 101.21400 SPINDLE REMOVAL Posted by: "Steve Davis" sdavis727x~xxcox.net gwg35 Date: Tue Jun 17, 2014 9:19 pm ((PDT)) Spray daily with liquid wrench for about a week or more, then see what happens. Be very careful heating as some gears are not steel and melt at a much lower temp. ------- Re: CRAFTSMAN 101.21400 SPINDLE REMOVAL Posted by: wa5cabx~xxcs.com Date: Tue Jun 17, 2014 9:35 pm ((PDT)) Brad, If the spindle gear is glued to the spindle, odds are that the spindle bearings and bull gear and probably the pulley and small back gear are as well. So once you have removed the spindle gear, you are going to be left with the same situation on the rest of the parts. As small as the 101.21400 (618) headstock is, I would immerse it in varsol (or equivalent) to which I had added half a pint of Kroil and let it soak for a week or until you can reach in and pull the spindle gear off with your fingers. If it takes two weeks, so what. It's already waited 20 years. :-) If you can rotate the spindle, remove the oil plug (looks like an Allen set screw) from the spindle/cone pulley and point the hole up. After you have the headstock in the bath, stick the Allen wrench down into the hole several times to get the air bubbles out. If you can't initially rotate the spindle, try again the second day. And after that, rotate the spindle 180 deg. every day. Download the Atlas Technical Bulletin on the 618 headstock for use once you have the spindle gear off. Robert D. ------- 618 Tailstock Wear [atlas618lathe] Posted by: jlucasemailx~xxgmail.com va3jsl Date: Fri Jul 18, 2014 10:34 am ((PDT)) The tailstock ram (M6-8) on my 618 has about 5 thou slop side to side and up and down. This is when when fully retracted. Much worse when extended and worse again at the point of a drill. I can lock it in place which is fine for supporting a long piece but useless for drilling. Any suggestions? I don't see any way to compensate for wear. Thanks in advance. ------- Re: 618 Tailstock Wear Posted by: "mikejanfx~xxjuno.com" mikejanfx~xxjuno.com Date: Fri Jul 18, 2014 3:24 pm ((PDT)) Side to side wear (or alignment) can be adjusted with your screws on the sides of your tailstock (used to do offset tapering). The up and down is a different story. Normally I "fine tune" a worn or mismatched tailstock by putting shims from a feeler gage (buy old ones at garage sales) between the base of your tailstock and the tailstock itself (tailstocks are usually 2 piece affairs allowing you to adjust side to side for tapers.) Sometimes the nose of the tailstock is lower than the back, sometimes they are even. If it is .005 low in the front, try a .005 shim between the base and the tailstock and a .003 in the back. Then measure with a dial indicator mounted on the face place or spindle of your headstock and swing it around an accurate dead center on your tailstock. Try it with the ram retracted, and extended and in both cases locked with the base of the tailstock locked down as well. Sometimes the shims between front and back of the tailstock will be the same; other times the front will need to be slightly larger. Trial and measure, trial and measure. Hope this helps. Mike ------- Re: 618 Tailstock Wear Posted by: jlucasemailx~xxgmail.com va3jsl Date: Fri Jul 18, 2014 6:28 pm ((PDT)) Here is a picture to clarify. With the ram retracted (as shown) and the tailstock locked to the bed, there is about 5 thou play both horizontal and vertical in the ram. The ram is not locked as would be the case when drilling. With the ram fully extended and the gauge moved to the end of the drill rod the play is more like 30 thou. With the ram locked I can adjust and shim the whole tailstock to turn a true cylinder. My problem is drilling or boring where the ram is free and the tool wanders out of true. 1 Photo: https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/atlas618lathe/attac hments/1428589083Atlas.jpg ------- Re: 618 Tailstock Wear Posted by: wa5cabx~xxcs.com wa5cab Date: Fri Jul 18, 2014 8:48 pm ((PDT)) jlucas, There is no practical fix other than replacement. My guess is that the tailstock was used for years with little or no oil on the ram. If you had free access to the necessary equipment, you could bore the hole in the tailstock oversize and build up the OD of the ram with flame-spray or hard chrome plating and then grind it to fit. You would also have to grind the key way. But if you paid a shop to do it today, it would probably cost you as much or more than Clausing would charge you for a new tailstock complete (if they have any left). It might be worthwhile to call Clausing and tell them what your problem is and that you don't know whether the wear is on the ram or tailstock. And ask them to tell you what the original diameter specs were. You might get lucky and find that most of the wear is on the ram. In which case you could buy a new one, or cross your fingers and buy a used one. But you are going to have to be able to measure the ID accurately all the way into the tailstock in order to get a true picture. I would guess, given that close in you said it had about the same 0.005" slop in both the horizontal and the vertical planes, that you could get away with just measuring the vertical axis of the bore. Which, although not easy to do accurately, will be much easier than the horizontal dimensions. You could also eject the ram and check whether you can feel or see where the slop in the ram runs. If you can both see and feel it, the bore is probably too far gone to fix with a new ram, allthough that might improve things. For measuring the OD of the ram if you don't know what it should be, the short length that never goes into the tailstock is probably still original diameter. P.S., please sign all posts. Robert Downs - Houston ------- Tailstock Slop... Posted by: "Gary Bauer" garybauer46x~xxyahoo.com Date: Sat Jul 19, 2014 2:31 am ((PDT)) Some of the wear in the tailstock ram can be managed using the adjustable guide screw under the ram and some slight drag from the ram lock. These devices were never intended to be "adjustments" but so what ??? Gary in AZ ------- Re: Tailstock Slop... Posted by: jlucasemailx~xxgmail.com va3jsl Date: Sat Jul 19, 2014 8:42 pm ((PDT)) I took the tailstock apart (yet again) and found most of the wear is in the casting and hardly any in the ram. When I put it back together I realised the guide screw under the ram was binding before fully engaging the ram. A bit of filing and the screw now engages properly and can take up most of the slop. Good suggestion with the ram lock slightly engaged. With the ram fully extended the play at the business end is now about 1 to 2 thou - unless I push very hard! I'm guessing this is about as good as it gets. One option I had thought of, and may try later, is to drill and tap for a second screw to the right of the existing guide screw. No way to get a drill under the ram but at about the 4 o.clock position it would add some additional support near the back of the ram. Now the ram is stable I can do a proper job getting it lined up with the spindle. Thanks everyone for your support and helpful advice. John Lucas ps: Sorry about not signing previous posts. ------- back gear wont stay in gear [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: brokenwrenchx~xxgmail.com Date: Thu Aug 28, 2014 11:11 pm ((PDT)) I have a craftsman similar to a th54 with timken bearing headstock, power crossfeed. I have done all i know to do with this lathe. I can't keep the backgear engaged for more than a minute or two without holding it in. The bearings are in good shape and the spindle is tight. Anyone got any suggestions? ------- Re: back gear wont stay in gear Posted by: "Jon Elson" elsonx~xxpico-systems.com jmelson2 Date: Fri Aug 29, 2014 8:14 am ((PDT)) There are shims that are put under the mounting brackets for the backgear eccentric shaft that control the amount the eccentric goes past the deepest engagement of the gear teeth. The proper adjustment of these shims helps a lot. Then, there are wave washers that slip on the eccentric before the brackets are placed on the ends of the shaft that put a drag on the eccentric, and also help keep the eccentric from moving. If these are all set up right, there will be no slippage. Jon ------- Re: back gear wont stay in gear Posted by: "Chris and Judy Zahnle" chrisandjudyx~xxcableone.net Date: Fri Aug 29, 2014 11:37 am ((PDT)) I had the same problem when I got my lathe. It was very dirty but in good shape, just not used for a long time. My back gears would pop out too. I just oiled the cone pulley on the spindle. Remember that there is a second screw under the first one on that pulley. I used Marvel Mystery oil to flush out the gunk and then spindle oil. It was working faster than you can read thin note. Good luck. Chris in WA ------- Re: back gear wont stay in gear Posted by: wa5cabx~xxcs.com wa5cab Date: Fri Aug 29, 2014 4:26 pm ((PDT)) brokenwrench, If your machine does not have a QCGB, from your description it is a 101.07403. You will find the parts manual for it in the Group's Files section. You will also find an Atlas Technical Bulletin on disassembling and assembling the Timken 10" and early Timken 12" headstocks there, too. That might help. Go through the part about removing the back gears, skip the spindle portion, and go through the assembly part. Robert Downs - Houston wa5cab dot com (Web Store) MVPA 9480 ------- Re: back gear wont stay in gear Posted by: "brokenwrench1 ." brokenwrenchx~xxgmail.com Date: Fri Aug 29, 2014 4:56 pm ((PDT)) Mine is a gear change and i had to rebuild the apron, cross feed and compound feed. It had a lot of time on it without being oiled. The lead screw bushings were shot. I got it without a tail stock. I salvaged it out of the junk pile. It had a good 3 jaw chuck with it and that is what i wanted, as well as my other 12 x 24 did not have power crossfeed and it had a babbit headstock that was loose. ------- Re: back gear wont stay in gear Posted by: wa5cabx~xxcs.com wa5cab Date: Fri Aug 29, 2014 7:49 pm ((PDT)) There isn't actually supposed to be but one screw in the spindle pulley oil hole. Althought a second one won't hurt anything. The screw is an oil plug, not a set screw. However, there have been several reports of people finding old lathes (6", 10" and 12") where some previous owner had tapped the hole through such that the oil plug screw went all the way through and stopped against the spindle. This may not hurt anything so long as the lathe remains in direct drive (back gears disengaged and bull gear pin pushed in). But as soon as you put the machine in back gear, either you will slip a belt or you will score the spindle. After that happens, there will be no further damage until one day someone has to pull the spindle. During that process, the right hand bushing in the spindle pulley will be damaged or destroyed. Robert Downs - Houston wa5cab dot com (Web Store) MVPA 9480 ------- Re: back gear wont stay in gear Posted by: wa5cabx~xxcs.com wa5cab Date: Fri Aug 29, 2014 9:37 pm ((PDT)) OK. Price was right, then. :-) Depending upon other factors (like which banjo it has and whether it does or doesn't have 96T Change Gears), your 12X24 is one of the four 101.0738x models. FYI, the babbit bearing headstocks originally came with a shim pack under the bearing caps. If it hasn't already been removed, you may be able to tighten up the spindle by removing a shim or a few shims. The shim packs are of the peel-off type. Robert Downs - Houston wa5cab dot com (Web Store) MVPA 9480 ------- Bent tailstock. Need some help! [atlas618lathe] Posted by: thuckfeltx~xxyahoo.com thuckfelt Date: Sun Aug 31, 2014 8:01 pm ((PDT)) While we were moving to our new house the tailstock slid off of the way down a couple of steps and hit the concrete. The only knew things I saw to the tailstock are on the actual cast housing but it is possible that the chuck is what is out of whack.It seems to be less than a millimeter high but at this rate it may as well be a mile when I'm trying to drill from the tailstock. Is there any way to accurately bend it back or maybe somewhere I could ship it to get it fixed? any advice is good advice thank you for your time. ------- Re: Bent Tailstock... Posted by: "Gary Bauer" garybauer46x~xxyahoo.com Date: Sun Aug 31, 2014 9:59 pm ((PDT)) If the bent part is the chuck you may be able to replace the 1MT taper shank in that chuck with a new one available from many sources. Typically those taper shanks are a tight press fit into the chuck back. They can be driven out with a punch from the inside of the opened chuck. If the bent part is the tailstock ram (p# M6-8), then a straight replacement ram may be needed. Watch E-bay for this part. I bought a complete tailstock unit for my Atlas 618 from E-bay for modest money a couple years ago. My original 618 was missing parts but had rust and broken parts. Gary in AZ ------- Re: Bent tailstock. Need some help! Posted by: wa5cabx~xxcs.com wa5cab Date: Mon Sep 1, 2014 6:02 pm ((PDT)) thuckfelt, The following assumes that the chuck is mounted on a 1MT arbor. First, make sure that the spindle is parallel to the ways. I've forgotten whether this is a 619/101.21400 or a 101.07301 but the latter would be more prone to this problem than the former. Mount a 3-jaw and 4-jaw chuck on the spindle and put a piece of fairly accurate round stock in it. 1/2" dia. drill rod is probably OK. Check runout near the jaws and several inches away. If OK, mount a dial indicator on the carriage/compound slide such that it touches the TDC of the test piece. The height should be the same at both ends of the test piece. Then, make sure it's the tailstock chuck that is the problem. With your 2MT to 1MT adaptor, mount the chuck in the spindle. Set the speed for no more than 120 RPM (fast enough to see but not fast enough to vibrate). Check the chuck body runout in the smooth area near the jaws. If nil or nearly so, put the round test piece in the chuck and repeat the test. If nil or nearly so, there is nothing wrong with the chuck and arbor. If the first test showed significant runout the arbor is probably bent. Straightening the arbor is probably not practical, and arbors are cheap anyway. So replace it. If the first test was OK but the second one wasn't, the chuck or a jaw is damaged. You will probably have to replace the chuck, although if you can find the parts, you could possibly fix it. If all of the headstock tests were OK, the problem is with the tailstock. It could be either high or tilted. Determine which by putting the tailstock chuck back in the tailstock ram. Retract and lock the ram. With the test piece mounted in the chuck, use the dial indicator to check the height reading at the end and near the jaws. If both readings are about the same (and significantly different from what you got at the headstock), the tailstock is high relative to the headstock. Probably the easiest and cheapest fix is to shim up the headstock. But carefully inspect the bottom of the M6-6 tailstock base first. Although it would be a fluke if it got a ding about the same height at both ends, stranger things have happened. If the reading is higher at the end of the test piece than near the chuck, the tailstock is tilted. Look for a ding on the headstock end of the M6-6 base. If you find damage, it should be safe to file it flat so long as you don't file very far from the edge. Robert Downs - Houston wa5cab dot com (Web Store) MVPA 9480 ------- Re: Bent tailstock. Need some help! Posted by: thuckfeltx~xxyahoo.com thuckfelt Date: Tue Sep 2, 2014 7:21 pm ((PDT)) It looks like the tailstock is definitely bent upwards. You mentioned shimming and some filing. Where specifically would I shim or file on the base? Sorry for the questions, I'm a rookie ------- Re: Bent tailstock. Need some help! Posted by: wa5cabx~xxcs.com wa5cab Date: Tue Sep 2, 2014 11:15 pm ((PDT)) thuckfelt, (please sign all posts) Before trying to fix the problem, we need to make another effort to determine where the problem is. The tailstock consists of three major and several minor components. Major components are the ram, M6-5 main casting (technically THE tailstock) and M6-6 base. It just occurred to me that there is a good possibility that the tailstock isn't sitting flat on the base anymore. Remove the clamp screw, catching the clamp as it falls free. Loosen the two slotted head set screws in the front and rear of the base. Remove the tailstock from the base. Set the base upside down on the bed and with a good magnifying glass, again carefully inspect the flat parts of the bottom that normally sit on the bed. As I said before, if you find any, carefully file them down, taking care not to let the file touch the undinged surfaces. Oil the bottom of the base, turn it back over and using some sort of spacer to make up for the missing tailstock casting, clamp it to the bed. Thoroughly clean the top down to bare metal, and then apply a thin coat of oil. Using the carriage and a dial indicator as before, run the indicator back and forth over the flat top where the tailstock normally sits. Unless the bed is badly worn under the headstock end of the carriage, it should be within +/- .001" everywhere. If it isn't, you can either pay another machine shop to make it so or replace the base. If the base is now flat, thoroughly clean the bottom of the tailstock down to bare metal and then reinstall it. With a dead center in the spindle and in the ram, ram retracted and locked, slide the tailstock up to the headstock and adjust the tailstock backset untill the tips of the centers are aligned back to front. Final adjustment here will come later. Repeat the dial indicator test with the drill rod in the tailstock chuck. If the tailstock is still tilted, your only remedy is probably to replace it. However, there is a good chance it won't be. Note that so long as the tailstock is level, it being a little high is in most cases not as injurious to accuracy as it being off front to back, tilted or twisted. The worst problem will be that drilled holes will tend to be a little oversize. But diameter errors when turning using the tailstock to support one end of the workpiece are small to very small until the workpiece diameter goes under 3/4". If the tailstock is 0.010" high, the diameter error at 5/8" nominal diameter is 0.001" approximately. At 1/2" it is 0.0016" and at 2" it is .00005". Robert Downs - Houston wa5cab dot com (Web Store) MVPA 9480 ------- How do I engage backgears [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: hermana_callx~xxyahoo.com Date: Wed Sep 3, 2014 9:18 pm ((PDT)) I just got an old craftsman lathe. The lathe was fairly well maintained but has sat for the last 10 years or so. As a result several parts are fused together (e.g. The built tensioner had to be cycled a few times but now runs smooth). I am trying to engage the back gears using the instructions "Pulling on the Knob and then push down and in." However, The only way I can get the backgears to move is by removing the U shaped bracket on the machine and then pressing down and in or pulling out. Is that standard or is something stuck? ------- Re: How do I engage backgears Posted by: "brokenwrench1 ." brokenwrenchx~xxgmail.com Date: Wed Sep 3, 2014 11:22 pm ((PDT)) Disengage the drive pin in the spindle pulley by moving it all the way closest to the chuck, then engage the back gear lever. Then test turn the drive mule by hand. If it is not binding turn on the lathe and see how it runs. In the middle of the drive pulley in tyhe head stock is a screw that you must remove in order to oil the bushing. If that has been run dry too long it could have galled to the main spindle shaft the chuck screws onto. Sometimes someone will lose the original screw and put one in that is too long and lock the drive pulley solid to the main spindle shaft causing the unit to lock up when engaging the back gear. ------- Re: How do I engage backgears Posted by: hermana_callx~xxyahoo.com Date: Thu Sep 4, 2014 7:28 am ((PDT)) So the drive pin disengages, but pushing on the lever does not move the backgears. The only way I can get the back gears to move is to unscrew the two screws on the U bracket and then Pull/Push on the lever. I can't help but think that this can't be standard procedure. The lever on my machine looks like this one http://www.wheatfarm.com/atlas_lathe/image10.jpg ------- Re: How do I engage backgears Posted by: "brokenwrench1 ." brokenwrenchx~xxgmail.com Date: Thu Sep 4, 2014 8:27 am ((PDT)) You have the best lathe craftsman made. Did you rock the chuck while trying to engage the back gear? Yours is similar to the one my uncle had. It has been so long ago when uncle had to replace the spindle shaft he bent with a new one, I will have to look at the parts manual; my lathe is the old style. ------- Re: How do I engage backgears Posted by: wa5cabx~xxcs.com wa5cab Date: Thu Sep 4, 2014 9:40 am ((PDT)) hermana, To say this in a different order and to check for a known problem, before trying to run any new-to-you Atlas lathe in back gear for the first time, rotate the spindle and locate the locking pin sticking out of the headstock side of the bull gear (the largest of the three gears on the spindle, not the one in the rear of the headstock or the one down under the spindle - You didn't say what model or style lathe you have (I don't think)). Pull the pin out as far as it will go. It shouldn't come all of the way out, but if it should happen to do so, set it aside for the time being. Rotate the pulley or the spindle until you find a tapped hole in the pulley. If the spindle pulley has two grooves and two belts, the hole will be to the right of the right-hand belt. If the pulley has four grooves and one belt, move the belt to the right- or left-hand groove. The hole will be in one of the center grooves (never can recall which). Try to rotate the pulley without the spindle turning. If it won't turn by itself or turns stiffly, with a long Allen wrench, loosen the setscrew that should be down in the hole and remove it. If the set screw is original, it should have a ball nose. A few people have reported finding two set screws in the hole so after you remove the first one, use the Allen wrench to feel in the bottom of the hole for another one. There shouldn't be but if there is, remove it. Again, see whether or not you can rotate the pulley without the spindle trying to turn. You should be able to.but it may be quite stiff. Pump several squirts of SAE 20 into the hole. Reinstall the ball nose set screw and turn it down 4 or 5 turns. Rotate the pulley 10 or 15 turns and if it was stiff to begin with, it should begin to free up. Remove the oil plug screw, squirt in some more oil, partially insert the screw, and rotate the pulley some more times. Repeat this procedure until the pulley turns quite freely. Now tighten the oil plug screw and confirm that the pulley still turns freely. If it doesn't, let us know. If it does, with the screw tight, back gears still disengaged and bull gear lock pin still out, start the motor and confirm that the belt and pulley run freely without any significant tendency for the spindle to turn. If it does, stop the motor, engage the back gears, and proceed with whatever it was you were going to do. In the future, how frequently you need to oil the spindle pulley bushings depends upon usage. One usable standard is to oil them monthly and before the first usage of back gears on each day that you use them. If you use back gears at least once a month, you can skip the monthly. Robert D. Robert & Susan Downs - Houston wa5cab dot com (Web Store) MVPA 9480 ------- Re: How do I engage backgears Posted by: wa5cabx~xxcs.com wa5cab Date: Thu Sep 4, 2014 5:12 pm ((PDT)) hermana, Do you know the owner of the lathe in the photo? I wonder where he got that red instruction plate to the left of the tumbler lever? I would surely like to have one to put on my machine. Back to your question, no, you shouldn't have to remove the pivot bearing bracket. Assuming for the moment that the back gears or spindle gears are in the correct position to mesh without having to slightly rotate the spindle, the motion of the black ball is straight out for a little way. Then it starts down while still coming out a little further. Then while the knob is still moving down the ball starts moving back in and finally it only moves back in. So the motion is sorta in five steps: OUT (OR PULL) OUT (OR PULL) & DOWN DOWN DOWN & IN (OR PUSH) IN (OR PUSH) The DOWN while not moving OUT or IN is only a few degrees. And they really aren't five distinct steps. Each blurs into the next. It's possible that the eccentric isn't properly adjusted. The instructions are in the Group's Files section on Yahoo. Unfortunately, I think you have to remove the spindle to adjust the eccentric. Robert Downs - Houston wa5cab dot com (Web Store) MVPA 9480 ------- Re: How do I engage backgears Posted by: hermana_callx~xxyahoo.com Date: Thu Sep 4, 2014 8:20 pm ((PDT)) I don't know the owner of the machine. I would also love to have the plate. Thanks for confirming that that was the motion. If I remove the pivot I can get the gears to engage with a similar motion. There must be one more place to lubricate that I've missed I see a set screw on the side of the pivot. Also thanks for deciphering my post. I guess it should have read "How do I get the Back Gear lever to go down." So here's the picture of the knob without the pivot bracket. As you can partially see, I can pull out the lever arm and engage the backgears. Am I to understand the the shaft that the knob is in should slide in the cylinder? If it does not slide, how would you recommend I get it unstuck? There is a spring, ball, and set screw that runs coaxial with the cylinder. What is that for? Thanks! https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/atlas_craftsman/attachments/1947101056 ------- Re: How do I engage backgears Posted by: wa5cabx~xxcs.com wa5cab Date: Thu Sep 4, 2014 11:35 pm ((PDT)) hermana, I was just about to write and suggest this might be the problem. Yes, the shaft should slide through the double-shouldered cylinder. There is a round bottom groove around the shaft, hidden by the cylinder in your photo. Its purpose is, with the spring-loaded detent ball, to lock the shaft so that the thing will stay either in or out of back gear. How did you get the pivot bracket off of the shaft? Removed the knob?? Rotate the cylinder so that the set screw is pointed up, and remove the set screw. Remove the spring. Reinstall the screw. Remove the knob. Take a piece of small tubing or pipe that will just slip over the shaft and with a small hammer, try to break the ball out of the groove. When you have uncovered the groove, rotate the cylinder so that the screw is pointed down and slide the cylinder off of the shaft. Take the cylinder to the bench, remove the screw, and get the ball out of the cylinder. Clean everything up and inspect the ball for signs of pitting or scarring. If you find any, you'll want to replace the ball. Then confirm that the ball will drop through the hole in the end of the cylinder and drop into the hole through the side of the cylinder. Reassemble everthing, oiling as you go. Note that there should be two screws and four #10 flatwashers in the fixings to attach the bracket to the headstock. Two go on the screws under the heads and two are spacers between the bracket and headstock casting. RD. Robert & Susan Downs - Houston wa5cab dot com (Web Store) MVPA 9480 ------- Re: Bullgear locking [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: wa5cabx~xxcs.com wa5cab Date: Mon Sep 22, 2014 4:34 pm ((PDT)) In a message dated 9/22/2014, > The pin is missing, do you have the measurements so I can make > a new one? You explained when not to use it, when do I use it? Bob, Like most members, I use the Yahoo system in reflector (email) mode, not bulletin board. And you don't give any indication of whom your question is directed to. I vaguely recall sending a response to a similar subject so it might be aimed at me. So, in the headstock assembly of most Atlas built lathes since th 9", there are two pins that go into or through the bull gear. The one that goes through the headstock casting and sticks into one of the 1/8" dia. holes in the face of the bull gear is the indexing pin. It could be used to index (set) the spindle for example to four positions 90 deg. apart for doing some operation on a square pattern. Or 60 deg. for hex. However, doing any machining on that pattern would require some sort of motor driven cutter mounted to the bed or carriage. And Atlas never really offered any as accessories. I have never found any practical use for it. The other pin is larger and goes through the back gear and into one or the other of two holes in the spindle pulley. This one is used most all the time. With the pin engaged in the pulley and the back gears disengaged, the headstock is in direct drive. This is the normal configuration most of the time for most operations. With the pin pulled out and disengaged from the pulley (but still sitting in the bull gear), the pulley is free to turn at a different RPM than the spindle. You engage the back gears and the spindle runs much slower, at a ratio of about 6:1. This is normally used for turning larger diameter parts or threading coarser threads. If you engage the back gears with the pin still engaged in the pulley, the spindle is locked. Handy for removing a chuck. However, if you forget and turn on the motor, you will either slip a belt, stall the motor, or break something. So never do that. Whichever pin you are talking about, download the appropriate manual for your model lathe from Files and look up the part number. Call Clausing and ask whether or not they still have one. If they do, buy it from them. Or not. But don't bother to ask for the drawing. If they don't and you are talking to Jolene, ask her if she will send you a PDF of the original Atlas drawing. Usually she will. Robert Downs - Houston wa5cab dot com (Web Store) MVPA 9480 ------- Re: Bullgear locking Posted by: "Carvel Webb" carvelwx~xxabsamail.co.za cwlathes Date: Tue Sep 23, 2014 7:23 am ((PDT)) Robert wrote - "If you engage the back gears with the pin still engaged in the pulley, thespindle is locked. Handy for removing a chuck." The relevant gears are made of ZAMAK so one needs to be circumspect with the amount of force used to remove the chuck, otherwise a broken tooth could result. OK for providing some resistance for a chuck which is regularly removed or changed, but maybe to be avoided for removing a "stuck chuck"? Regards, Carvel ------- Cleaning lead screw & 6in QC [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: "Jim Irwin" jirwin1x~xxaustin.rr.com jimirwin2001 Date: Mon Nov 17, 2014 12:03 pm ((PST)) Whatąs best practice for cleaning the lead screw? Talking about dried oil dust & chips now. Also, is/was there ever a QC box for the 6 in Atlas? I just got one w/o QC. My larger ones both have QC. Thanks Jim Irwin 6, 10 & 12 Atlas lathes ------- Re: Cleaning lead screw & 6in QC Posted by: wa5cabx~xxcs.com wa5cab Date: Mon Nov 17, 2014 2:29 pm ((PST)) I use a brass wire brush. Set the feed to 10-15 TPI or whatever works best and toward the headstock. Move the carriage to the headstock end of the bed. Start the machine and hold the brush against the lead screw hard enough to get the brush tips down into the threads, letting the lead move the brush right to left. Move the brush in and out or up and down to use the full face. Clean the brush as required. When you get to the carriage, clean the brush and if necessary repeat. Move the carriage to the tailstock and catch the part it was covering. > Also, is/was there ever a QC box for the 6 in Atlas? I've heard rumors that someone did build one but don't know whether it was commercial or a one-off. If no one here know for sure, try the 618 list. I know that no one has mentioned one on H-M in the past three years. Robert Downs - Houston wa5cab dot com (Web Store) MVPA 9480 ------- Re: Cleaning lead screw & 6in QC Posted by: "Carvel Webb" carvelwx~xxabsamail.co.za cwlathes Date: Mon Nov 17, 2014 9:07 pm ((PST)) Sometimes it helps to alternate Robert's treatment with a stiff bristle brush and kerosene. Regards, Carvel ------- Repair of Atlas MK2 belt cover. [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: holts001x~xxaol.com crholt44 Date: Tue Feb 3, 2015 4:46 am ((PST)) This may be "old news", but in my quest to find an Atlas MK2 10100 model lathe. I ran across one of the problems you can encounter, a cracked or broken belt cover. Why Clausing used plastic, is anybody's guess; it was certainly cheap, but not very "high impact" for a shop environment. I found that Plastic Weld made by Plastruct worked very well to bond the pieces back together. Those of you into model trains or other hobbies that use Plastruct building shapes are no doubt familiar with Plastic Weld. It is formulated for ABS, Styrene, Butyrate, and Acrylic Plastics. I don't know exactly what Clausing used for plastic material, but it doesn't really matter. Plastic Weld has MEK in it, so any solvent type "glue" will no doubt work, including straight MEK. I tried Testors solvent type (glue) and it didn't seem to "meld" the plastic as well. I hope this helps. Charley ------- Help with feedscrew assembly TH54 Manual Lathe [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: ronhumphreyx~xxaustin.rr.com dreyse2526 Date: Sat Feb 28, 2015 9:28 am ((PST)) I removed the apron on my 10-inch lathe to clean the chips out of it. When I removed it, the lead screw also came out of the feed gear assembly. I'm looking at the reversing gear assembly and I do not understand how the 9-49A gear works. I just seems to slip over the end of the feed screw without any way to attach it to the shaft. Does that sound right? The 9-49A gear has a wide groove cut with two holes at 180 degrees drilled in the center of the groove. It appears almost like something is missing. I don't believe I dropped anything when I removed it. Am I missing something? ------- Re: Help with feedscrew assembly TH54 Manual Lathe Posted by: "Scott Henion" shenionx~xxshdesigns.org shdesigns2003 Date: Sat Feb 28, 2015 10:21 am ((PST)) The feed screw is driven by the 9-50A collar. The 9-49A gear just turns on the screw. The groove fits in the gear case. The holes are to let oil pass through. Scott G. Henion, Stone Mountain, GA Craftsman 12x36 lathe: http://shdesigns.org/Craftsman12x36 Welding pages and homemade welder: http://shdesigns.org/Welding ------- Re: Help with feedscrew assembly TH54 Manual Lathe Posted by: "brokenwrench1 ." brokenwrenchx~xxgmail.com brokewrench Date: Sat Feb 28, 2015 6:23 pm ((PST)) Mine used a soft pin that drives the lead screw. This is a safety feature to prevent damage in case of a crash. The problem is people replace them with a hardened pin defeating the purpose. ------- Mk2 Direct Drive Slippage [atlas618lathe] Posted by: wbzx2x~xxyahoo.com wbzx2 Date: Sun Mar 1, 2015 6:37 pm ((PST)) Hi, My new lathe is an Atlas 101.00 with # 05368 on it - it's blue, seems to have the non-Zamak headstock. Well, the direct-drive collar needs to be pushed in when you want the pulleys to grab the spindle directly, but it wants to slide outward while cutting, which lets the chuck stop turning (much). Anyone know what I need to do to fix it? Also, I noticed this little thing: It's not a Craftsman-badged one, so I bought the ebay-download of the Atlas manual for it; and I found a little difference in the picture (just one so far ) while looking at the headstock-page around the direct-drive coupling (#10). There's an unmarked little thing like a set-screw or key, floating around the outer #13 retaining ring (this is on the end of the spindle pulley-cluster). The Craftsman pdf I found doesn't show that. I haven't taken anything apart yet, thought I'd ask first. ------- Re: Mk2 Direct Drive Slippage Posted by: wbzx2x~xxyahoo.com wbzx2 Date: Tue Mar 3, 2015 3:52 pm ((PST)) To fix the slipping direct-drive coupler, first get some retainer-ring/clip pliers (Ace Hardware) remove the retaining ring on the end of the spindle, and get ready for the ball and spring to fall out and get lost. There's an 1/8th inch drill-hole you can see on the outer-coupler; make it point up before removing the coupler/collar. Then the ball and spring will be on the bottom-inside of the collar, so they might not fall out. Mine didn't fall out, I tried WD40 spray and heating, tapping, then the ball came out, and I got the spring out using a wire. The spring looked good, but it wasn't long enough - maybe it shrunk. The spring is supposed to push the ball into one of the grooves on the spindle, but it was too short, let the ball rest just inside the collar. I got a similar spring from Ace Hardware (a compression spring), it was lighter-duty and too long, but I clipped it off at 1/2" to match the hole-depth, and put it back together. It does work now, but the spring-pressure isn't very strong, so I may order the spring from Sears Parts Direct or Atlas/Clausing. I don't know if it will be the right length though - my original spring plus the 1/8" ball only fills the hole. Maybe the thing to do is to contact Atlas about it. http://www.searspartsdirect.com/Craftsman-Lathe-Parts/Model-1012 1200/0247/0728000/00040933/00005.html ------- Re: Mk2 Direct Drive Slippage Posted by: wa5cabx~xxcs.com wa5cab Date: Tue Mar 3, 2015 4:39 pm ((PST)) For a quick fix, try adding 1/4" or more to the cut length of the Ace spring. Just be sure that the ball will go into the hole before the longer spring goes solid. Also, be sure that the ball goes against the spring's finished end, not the cut end. Most commercially available compression springs are going to be made such that they will go solid before you exceed the tensile strength of the wire and permanently deform the spring. Robert Downs - Houston wa5cab dot com (Web Store) MVPA 9480 ------- Re: Mk2 Direct Drive Slippage Posted by: wbzx2x~xxyahoo.com wbzx2 Date: Tue Mar 3, 2015 7:08 pm ((PST)) Yeah, I should have tried it before I cut it off, it turned out to be not-hard to hold the ball and spring down while putting the collar back on the shaft. But they have more of those. I'm curious about the old spring -- it doesn't look like it could have been longer originally, it's a strong-looking one. I cleaned some gunk off of the spindle-grooves and the place on the pulleys where the collar seats. ------- Re: Mk2 Direct Drive Slippage Posted by: burkheimerx~xxverizon.net ar1911 Date: Wed Mar 4, 2015 4:56 am ((PST)) Can you make a short spacer to fit under the original spring? Turn the corners off a small nut so you can use the internal threads to be able to remove it if you later need to. ------- Re: Mk2 Direct Drive Slippage Posted by: wbzx2x~xxyahoo.com wbzx2 Date: Wed Mar 4, 2015 10:39 am ((PST)) Yeah, I thought about doing that, but didn't want to add to the effort of getting the parts out later. It took some effort to get them out. After getting the ball out, the spring required pulling out with a wire; it didn't just fall out. So maybe it was stuck compressed, and stayed shorter. Grit can get around there through the drilling hole that's on the opposite side then onto the spindle's grooves. The lighter weight spring has been working fine. I'd like to find out what length the original spring is supposed to be before I order one. The ball measures 0.125" like it's supposed to. ------- Re: Mk2 Direct Drive Slippage Posted by: wbzx2x~xxyahoo.com wbzx2 Date: Wed Mar 4, 2015 10:46 am ((PST)) That's a good idea, I thought of a spacer, but not making use of nut-threads. ------- Several questions from a new 12" metal lathe owner [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: abigalesdadx~xxcomcast.net abigalesdad Date: Thu Mar 12, 2015 4:44 pm ((PDT)) I recently purchased a 12" Craftsman metal lathe at an estate sale. It was without a doubt the oiliest, greasiest machine I have ever purchased, and I have been disassembling and cleaning it. At least there's no rust on it. It came with a 1/4 HP motor so I'll likely upgrade to a 1/2 HP. This should not be an issue, correct? There is also too much play in the lower slide of the cross slide, about 15 thousandths, so I'm going to replace the screw and nut. In preparation, I'm removing the existing screw. I attached a snippet from a pdf to show which part is giving me a problem. The bad boy is highlighted. It's part no. 10F-46. It must to screw on, but it is reluctant to unscrew, at least so far. Complicating matters is that one needs to use a pin wrench that I don't have. Looks like I'll have to make something that will either have a pin in it or will pinch the outside. Any helpful hints out there? Dave ------- Re: Several questions from a new 12" metal lathe owner Posted by: "Scott Henion" shenionx~xxshdesigns.org shdesigns2003 Date: Thu Mar 12, 2015 4:54 pm ((PDT)) 1/2HP is fine. Make sure it is 1750RPM (not 3550) Hmm, mine shows the same part but the one on the machine has a hex shape up where it meets the slide. There is a set screw as an oil point just above 10F-46. That would need to be removed. 0.015 is not bad. Really just replacing the nut would probably bring it down to a few thou. I replaced my nut when it has 0.027 and brought it down under 0.005. Scott G. Henion, Stone Mountain, GA Craftsman 12x36 lathe: http://shdesigns.org/Craftsman12x36 Welding pages and homemade welder: http://shdesigns.org/Welding ------- Re: Several questions from a new 12" metal lathe owner Posted by: "Whit" WhitPUSMCx~xxaol.com w.philbrick Date: Thu Mar 12, 2015 8:52 pm ((PDT)) Actually that is exactly what I did, as you can replace the nut by running the crosslide off the far side and never have to remove that bearing at all. My bearing was on there but good and mine wasn't that bad and you never can (nor should) remove all of the backlash. Whit ------- Re: Several questions from a new 12" metal lathe owner Posted by: wa5cabx~xxcs.com wa5cab Date: Thu Mar 12, 2015 10:35 pm ((PDT)) Dave, Some cross-feed screw bearings have a hex shoulder although I haven't found a parts manual that shows that. The ones with the round shoulders take a pin spanner. Measure the diameter of the shoulder and the diameter of the pin hole. The spanner must match both. The spanners turn up on eBay fairly frequently (or used to). That's where I bought several different sizes. As several have said, you cannot get the backlash in the cross feed screw to zero and still be able to use the lathe. 0.015" isn't bad, and it has no effect on the accuracy of the machine unless you don't know to always approach the final setting from the proper direction (from the outside for turning or OD threading or from the inside for boring or ID threading). The backlash could be 0.060" and still get the same finish results (not that I would want to run a machine with 0.060" cross feed backlash). Before you start changing parts, first adjust the end float in the cross feed screw. You do this by first lubricating the cross feed bearing by removing the nearer slotted set screw from the top of the carriage just behind the bearing face and injecting SAE 20 ND or equivalent through the hole (do not used any HD oil). Replace the screw. Then you carefully adjust the hex nut between the crank and bearing by first loosening the special hex nut on the outside of the crank. To take the cross feed nut out of the picture, first run the cross feed nut off the back end of the screw and then push the slide another eighth of an inch. Loosen the special nut securing the crank, without allowing the crank to rotate. Hold the crank and tighten the adjustment hex nut about one flat. Again holding the crank, tighten the crank nut. Check the "feel" of the crank as you turn it. The aim is to tighten the adjusting nut as much as you can without causing any significant drag while turning the crank. Once this is properly adjusted, pull the slide back toward you while rotating the crank CCW to re-engage the cross feed nut. Run the nut back onto the screw about 15 turns. Check backlash. Run the slide back to where it typically runs and again check backlash. Any difference in the two readings is screw wear. The remainder is a combination of nut wear and thread allowance. The latter can never be zero (or you wouldn't be able to turn the crank. I wouldn't replace anything unless the worst backlash exceeds about 0.020". And whatever you do in trying to remove the bearing, do not use anything that "pinches" on the outside, like a pipe wrench, unless you have a new bearing and bushings ready to install. Yes, as Scott wrote, 1/2 HP is good. Do not exceed 3/4 HP with single or 3-phase motors unless the latter is run by a VFD with adjustable torque limit. Robert & Susan Downs - Houston wa5cab dot com (Web Store) MVPA 9480 ------- Belt-Tensioning-Pulley Bushing (Mk2) [atlas618lathe] Posted by: wbzx2x~xxyahoo.com wbzx2 Date: Sat Apr 18, 2015 1:26 pm ((PDT)) My belt-tensioning pulley has some noisy wiggle in it, so I thought I'd replace its bushing, without doing any "work". Has anyone done this before? The bushing turned out to be fixed or stuck in the pulley, so I don't know if that's how they're supposed to be. Is it like you have to drill it out, turn yourself a bushing, and buy an arbor press to put it in? Thanks, Pete ------- Re: [atlas618lathe] Belt-Tensioning-Pulley Bushing (Mk2) Posted by: "Kurt Sierens" ksierensx~xxmsn.com ksierens Date: Sat Apr 18, 2015 2:04 pm ((PDT)) I have replaced mine. You need to turn a piece of stock that has the ID diameter of the bushing, and slightly smaller than the OD of the bushing to push it out either using an arbor press or vice. You can use a socket that will clear the OD of the bushing on the other side. I would not drill it out, you will probably damage the pulley. ------- Re: Belt-Tensioning-Pulley Bushing (Mk2) Posted by: "Robert Downs" wa5cabx~xxcomcast.net wa5cab Date: Sun Apr 19, 2015 10:57 am ((PDT)) Pete, The Atlas part number is 10-264 (which just means it was also used on the 10”) so you should be able to get it from Clausing. As Kurt said, make a piloted remover with the pilot about an inch long and of a diameter to be a slip fit in the new bushing. OD about 0.010” smaller than the OD of the bushing. And either make a receiver from a piece of stock a little thicker than the length of the bushing with a hole through it a little larger than the bushing OD or use a deep pattern socket that the bushing will just fit into without jamming. Also make a flat washer with an OD larger than the bushing OD and the ID a slip fit on the pilot (this turns the remover into an installer). Press the old bushing out using a press or a vise (don’t use a hammer or you could crack the pulley). Then press the replacement in in the same direction. The flat washer will stop the bushing where it needs to be. Robert D. ------- Feed Screw: bearing, and woodruff key [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: kbx~xxmuziker.org kbjorling Date: Fri Jun 5, 2015 3:39 pm ((PDT)) Well, Folks, To ask my first question I must admit to a shameful and embarrassing boo-boo: A. I didn't pay attention to clearances and allowed my tail-stock to crash into my steady-rest. Before I realized what was happening, the feed screw had torn out the bearing/support at the far end of the lathe. 1. I was suitably shocked and chastened. 2. I was relieved to discover that I had not damaged the split nut or its mountings 3. I was sorry to see that the lead screw bearing is a total loss - ripped apart, in fact. BUT - there's (supposedly) a woodruff key in the mounting of the final gear in the change-gear train. Shouldn't that give way before the bearing or the half-nuts, or anything else - I mean, that's what it's there for, yes? (no??) This reminds me of occasions when others here have mentioned needing to replace their half-nuts, so I wonder the same for their situations. Likewise, there is a Craftsman 12" (old-style) at the instrument shop where I work. A few years ago somebody even more careless than me managed to operate it with the power cross-feed engaged - and didn't know how to disengage it(!!) - and ripped the mountings for the half-nuts out. (This machine has the quick-change gearbox.) Again, shouldn't the woodruff key be the weak point in the power train, so as to avoid these costly embarrassments? Maybe I can answer this myself, by getting into the change gear area and looking - with my eyes - maybe I find that there's an ordinary key in the slot (or that some genious has pinned the shaft, or epoxied it, or... I've seen just enough such things to no longer be surprised by them.) B. I see that there are several eBay sellers offering original and used feed-screw bearings. I see that there are also some selling hand-made replacements that look a lot sturdier than the originals (which appear to be aluminum or ZAMAK or some such flimsy metal). Are these hand-made ones better, because they're sturdier - OR: Is the bearing meant to be the weak link that gives way, as mine did - protecting the half-nuts and other delicate parts? Kurt B ------- Re: Feed Screw: bearing, and woodruff key Posted by: "Lance Eggleston" gbofx~xxverizon.net crashbone256 Date: Fri Jun 5, 2015 4:36 pm ((PDT)) > OR: Is the bearing meant to be the weak link that gives way Yes. The part was cheap in 1940. Since most have been broken in about 70 yrs, the parts are now expensive. L ------- Re: Feed Screw: bearing, and woodruff key Posted by: wa5cabx~xxcs.com wa5cab Date: Fri Jun 5, 2015 4:38 pm ((PDT)) Kurt, Read the MOLO. The right lead screw support and bearing is Zamak and is designed to do exactly what it apparently did and prevent far more serious damage to something else. Although your description of what caused it doesn't compute (neither the steady rest not the tailstock have any connection to the carriage drive), the right lead screw bearing apparently did what it was supposed to to and allowed (I assume) the lead screw to eject itself from the left support or the QCGB (whichever your lathe has). The only models that don't have a frangible right bearing and support are the final versions of the 12" Commercial. They have a slip clutch. Woodruff keys are not designed to be shear pins. The torque required to shear off a Woodruff key is great enough that some other part will probably break first. But in any case, the key that engages the slot in the left end of the lead screw is not a Woodruff Key and is not designed as a shear pin. If you are actually referring to the Woodruff key that the screw gear drives to turn the shaft that eventually turns the lead screw, again, the gear would fail first. You can replace your right bearing with one of those "improved" units sold by people who also never read the book if you want to. But if you ever make the same mistake again, you will dislike the consequences far more than you do today. On the other lathe, the cross feed isn't operated by the half nuts. And unless there was a hefty workpiece in the way and the tumbler was set to advance the cross slide (i.e., move the carriage toward the tailstock if the half nuts were engaged), all that should have happened was that the cross feed nut should have just run off of the threads on the cross feed screw and stopped moving. Robert Downs - Houston wa5cab dot com (Web Store) MVPA 9480 ------- Re: Feed Screw: bearing, and woodruff key Posted by: "Gregg Eshelman" g_alan_ex~xxYAHOO.COM g_alan_e Date: Fri Jun 5, 2015 8:33 pm ((PDT)) On 6/5/2015 9:09 PM, kbx~xxmuziker.org [atlas_craftsman] wrote: > Thank you both (Robt. & Lance) for useful information. > It looks like it might not be a bad idea to be always on the lookout for > replacement lead screw bearings, and to snap up a spare or two whenever > they are offered cheap. OR: Learn how to make a sufficiently weak one! Or make and fit a ball and spring slip clutch to put into the drive like some other lathes have. Quite simple in design. One half has a cylinder with a hole through it perpendicular to the lead screw. The other half has a cup which is a slip fit over the cylinder. Through the wall of the cup are drilled two holes which align with the hole through the cylinder. A coil spring and a pair of hard steel balls go into the hole in the cylinder, then that's snapped into the cup. Ideally the spring is just the right strength so it will only slip when parts of the lathe not meant to bang firmly together are banged firmly together, or when the operator takes a cut deep enough to stop the spindle. I've seen a clutch like this on the feed rod OR the lead screw on various old lathes but have yet to see it on both rods on lathes that have a separate feed rod so the screw is only used for threading. I assume which rod it's on depended on which function the person who designed the lathe thought was mostly likely to have operator errors. I've never crashed a lathe. From the first little Chinese 7x12 I bought it was plenty obvious to me how not to bang parts of the machine together, though I'd never operated any sort of lathe. Run the tool up to where the end of the cut will be then turn the spindle by hand. If parts that shouldn't touch do touch, alter the setup so they won't! Then when you run it under power, amazingly, there's no crash. ;-) I barely had the lathe out of its box and onto my floor and I was making my first cuts on an item I didn't want to pay a shop $35 an hour to do wronmg. ;-) (Yup, on the floor, on my knees, I needed that part cut NOW.) Do machining teachers demonstrate this basic element of procedure for not damaging a lathe? From the terribly beat up saddles and slides I've seen on many ex-school lathes, they must not. ------- Re: Feed Screw: bearing, and woodruff key Posted by: "Carvel Webb" carvelwx~xxabsamail.co.za cwlathes Date: Sat Jun 6, 2015 12:18 am ((PDT)) Kurt, I don’t have the details , but one of the members a couple of years ago had designed a bearing with a steel shell and mounting , and a phosphor bronze sleeve held in place by a soft aluminium shear pin so when it jammed it broke the pin and pushed out the sleeve along the lines of what you are speculating , Regards, Carvel ------- Re: Feed Screw: bearing, and woodruff key Posted by: "Terry Lund" terry.lundx~xxgmail.com terrylund Date: Sat Jun 6, 2015 4:36 pm ((PDT)) In the June/July 2011 issue of Machinist’s Workshop A Stewart Booher described a lead screw bearing replacement which he developed for a 12” X 36” Craftsman/Atlas lathe. A few months later, I was fortunate enough to purchase Stu Booher's 12" x 36" lathe when he needed to make room in his shop. Presumably that old issue is still available through Village Press. I'm not sure if this is the same item which Carvel Webb was thinking about as I'm not sure if Stu Booher is/was a member of this group, but it serves the same purpose. Terry ------- Re: Feed Screw: bearing, and woodruff key Posted by: "Chris and Judy Zahnle" chrisandjudyx~xxcableone.net Date: Sat Jun 6, 2015 5:08 pm ((PDT)) There are pictures of my lead screw bearing replacement for a 5/8 lead screw in the photo album in the “Chris’s lead screw bearing”. It shears off a aluminum rivet when under stress. Should be able to up scale it to 3/4 LS. Chris Z ------- Re: Feed Screw: bearing, and woodruff key Posted by: wa5cabx~xxcs.com wa5cab Date: Sat Jun 6, 2015 9:11 pm ((PDT)) The second best solution is the slip clutch that Atlas put on the final version 12". The best solution is to never have a crash. The only reasonable excuse for a crash is the sudden death of the operator due to for example gun shot, heart attack, stroke, or nearby thermonuclear blast. Robert Downs - Houston wa5cab dot com (Web Store) MVPA 9480 ------- Re: Feed Screw: bearing, and woodruff key Posted by: "Carvel Webb" carvelwx~xxabsamail.co.za cwlathes Date: Sun Jun 7, 2015 1:28 am ((PDT)) "The only reasonable excuse for a crash is . . . . . " Or the domestic manager arriving with tea and biscuits :>) ? Point taken, Carvel ------- Break point in my leadscrew [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: thehairsx~xxoptilink.us dhlh1984 Date: Tue Jun 16, 2015 4:22 pm ((PDT)) I'm looking for advice on a modification to my lead screw. I looking at pulling the lead screw and turning the 3/4" section just outside the QCGB down to 5/8" for 1" and cutting it in the middle of the turning. Then make a collar with a 5/8" ID and a 7/8" od 1" long to go over it. This I would drill twice for a 1/8" or 3/16" brass pin to give the lead screw a break point. Now my questions start. Should I turn down the lead screw at all or just make a 3/4" ID by 1" OD collar. It looks like anything over 7/8" could get into my rack gear at the very left end of travel on the bed. The next question is what size brass pin should I use and should I use one or two. I want the joint to give next time instead of breaking gears in the QCGB. Thanks for any advice in advance. David Hair ------- Re: Break point in my leadscrew Posted by: "brokenwrench1 ." brokenwrenchx~xxgmail.com brokewrench Date: Tue Jun 16, 2015 6:38 pm ((PDT)) Why not use an aluminium key on the drive gear? The saftey measure I use is a lower hp motor orleaving the drive belt on the loose side, just tight enough not to easily slip. ------- Re: Break point in my leadscrew Posted by: wa5cabx~xxcs.com wa5cab Date: Tue Jun 16, 2015 8:11 pm ((PDT)) David, I would personally make a slip clutch instead of using a shear pin. The factory slip clutch is considerably larger in diameter than 7/8". So I don't understand that part. It does not hit the rack. But if you insist on building a shear pin joint, the slip setting for the late Atlas 12" slip clutch is a torque of 5 lb-ft. So that is the torque that you want to shear the pin. And don't forget, when you are doing the shear strength calculations, to divide the cross section that you calculate by two, and then calculate the pin diameter. And there is no practical advantage and some disadvantage to using two shear pins. ------- Re: Break point in my leadscrew Posted by: "Carvel Webb" carvelwx~xxabsamail.co.za cwlathes Date: Tue Jun 16, 2015 10:31 pm ((PDT)) In the same vein, my Maximat V10-P uses a 3mm aluminium shear pin. Regards, Carvel ------- Babbitt bearing headstock tech bulletin [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: gngwingert7100x~xxyahoo.com gngwingert7100 Date: Sun Jun 21, 2015 6:54 am ((PDT)) I am in the process of reassembling my 12" lathe model # 101.07383. Looking for assembly instructions or technical bulletins detailing spacing and clearances for spindle and headstock assembly. I looked in the files section and searched older post but most everything deals with timken headstocks. Thanks Gary ------- Re: Babbitt bearing headstock tech bulletin Posted by: wa5cabx~xxcs.com wa5cab Date: Sun Jun 21, 2015 8:44 am ((PDT)) Gary, The only place that I know of with any information on care and feeding of babbit bearings and spindle is in the early editions of the Atlas Manual of Lathe Operations (MOLO). Because of Copyright questions, we don't have a PDF of any of them and AFAIK you won't find a PDF of the edition you want. You can sometimes purchase an original on eBay. But almost always you will have to write the seller for more information to determine which of the five versions he has. They all say "Copyright 1937" on the copyright page and most sellers seem to assume that they have the rare First Edition. The one that you want will be bound with white plastic fingers (GBC), have a black cover that says Atlas, not Craftsman, and the first bound-in page in Chapter 7 - Threading will say in part "Sears Master Craftsman 12-Inch". There are some other variants that would also work but ID'ing them is more complicated. Usual price varies from $25 to $40. If they are asking more than that, skip it and keep looking. There is about a page of instructions on the babbit bearings. Plus a lot of other information that you will find very helpful after you get the 07383 back together and running. You should also download from our Files section the parts manual on the Atlas 10F as the one page showing babbit headstock is mostly applicable except for the headstock casting itself. But the components on the spindle and the back gears are the same as in yours. Also download the parts manual on the 101.07403 as except for the Timken bearings and no thrust bearing on the spindle, the 3/4" lead screw and the parts associated with the power cross feed, it is the same as the 101.07383. There is also a parts list on the 101.07383 that you can use to ID what parts aren't the same, but it is not an exploded view manual. Finally, download the early 12" headstock Technical Bulletin. I think it is in the "Repairs..." folder. It shows the Timken bearing spindle but the back gears are the same. Robert Downs - Houston wa5cab dot com (Web Store) MVPA 9480 ------- NOTE TO FILE: The question about rack removal on a larger Atlas lathe was answered by several folks suggesting use of a punch to remove the pins after also removing the screws. Obviously there is limited room on some lathes to use a punch and hammer between the ways. This next suggestion is very useful, here and perhaps in other situations. ------- Re: Atlas 936B spindle and rack disassembly questions. [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: holts001x~xxaol.com crholt44 Date: Sun Jul 19, 2015 5:41 am ((PDT)) matthew.b.simon wrote: 'With regard to the rack, I do know see the two holes in the back of that side of the bed. I don't see how anybody gets a punch in there effectively, the only one I had that would fit the angle snapped on the third rap. I'm really tempted to leave the rack on and just do my best at cleaning it up, but the bed could really use paint, and I'm not sure how to mask it cleanly around the rack.' Matt, To get the groove pins out of my MK2's (6 inch lathe) rack. I used a common nail bent in a "L" shape and used a brass hammer's side. A common nail may not be stiff enough to do the job (not hardened), but a hex key (Allen key) may work. Use the short side as the punch, and hold the long side. Then hit the back side of the nail (hex key) at the bend. It's wonky, but it works. The clearance is even less with a MK2 between the ways, but the pins came out pretty easy once I was able to give them a good "lick". A piece of steel bar may work better than a hammer, if your pins are really holding fast. Charley ------- New file uploaded to atlas_craftsman [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: atlas_craftsmanx~xxyahoogroups.com Date: Sun Jul 26, 2015 11:40 am ((PDT)) Hello, This email message is a notification to let you know that a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the atlas_craftsman group. File: /Manuals, Atlas or Atlas-Craftsman Lathes/Atlas La the 06 10100-01 CI Roller Early Rev 2.pdf Uploaded by: wa5cab Description: Setup, operation and illustrated parts manual You can access this file at the URL: https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/atlas_craftsman/files/Man uals%2C%20Atlas%20or%20Atlas-Craftsman%20Lathes/Atlas%20Lathe%20 06%2010100-01%20CI%20Roller%20Early%20Rev%202.pdf Regards, wa5cab ------- Re: New file uploaded to atlas_craftsman Posted by: "Paul J. Ste. Marie" taigx~xxste-marie.org pstemari Date: Sun Jul 26, 2015 3:37 pm ((PDT)) On 7/14/2015 10:06 PM, atlas_craftsmanx~xxyahoogroups.com wrote: >File: /Manuals, Atlas or Atlas-Craftsman Lathe Accessories/Atlas QC GB 10 1500 - 1570 Operation - 1947.pdf > Uploaded by: wa5cab > Description: Basic operation and odd pitch settings charts. Wow, that's handy. Nice to know that slower power feeds are readily available. The lowest speed on the stock setup is a bit fast. Being able to get down to a feed of 0.001"/rev is nice. ------- Re: 12" lathe headstock alignment [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: taigx~xxste-marie.org pstemari Date: Sun Jul 26, 2015 4:17 pm ((PDT)) Update: Had a problem with the slope of the garage floor, so I poured a pad using self-leveling concrete and parked the lathe cabinet/bench on that. Proceeded to level it with a proper machinist's level, but ran into a problem with the mounting. The 3/8"-16 bolts were held by nuts down inside a long crevice, and as it turns out, they were sufficiently undersized that using a fractional wrench rounded one off. I would up lifting the lathe and bench top with an engine hoist to get at the problem nut. It took both an angle grinder and an SK "turbosocket" to remove the stupid thing. I replaced the nuts with steel bars to prevent future issues and put everything back together. Leveling the lathe took an extra 0.009" of shims under the front right foot. Once done I took some fresh passes on the workpiece and measured it. It went from being 0.008" oversize at the tailstock end to 0.004" undersize. At that point I removed the QCGB and took a look at the headstock again. It didn't appear to have enough room for any sort of shim, so I put an indicator on the tail end of the workpiece, cracked the SHCSs and clamp bolt, and twisted the headstock as far as I could, shifting the indicator by about 0.002". I then tightened everything back up and gave it another try. This time the results looked a lot better. Measuring about every two inches from the headstock end, I get 2.1523", 2.1515", 2.1517", 2.1515", and 2.1508", so down to 1.5 thou from 8 thou, but not particularly linear. I'm not certain at this point what's causing the remaining deviation. Could be the cross slide shifting or bed wear. AFAICT there's no lock for the cross slide or compound in the stock configuration. I'm going to try shaving off a few tenths with a sharp HSS tool and see what that does. If it doesn't improve I'll see what I can do to jury-rig a cross slide lock. ------- Re: 12" lathe headstock alignment Posted by: wa5cabx~xxcs.com wa5cab Date: Sun Jul 26, 2015 4:53 pm ((PDT)) The cross slide on the milling attachment is the same part as those on the 10F and most of the 3/8" bed Craftsman 12". And functionally interchangable with the cross slide on the 12" Atlas and Craftsman Commercial (1/2" bed). The milling attachment comes with three gib screws and a T-handle locking screw. One of those locking screws installed in place of either inner screw on the cross slide works OK. The only thing that you may have to look out for is the T-handle hitting the saddle. Fix is to install it and experimentally determine (and mark) the one that hits or could hit. Then remove the screw and press the handle most of the way through the screw, turning it into an L-handle screw. It will then do fine as a gib-lock on the cross slide. For the compound, you could use the M1-45 gib lock off of the mill. You could probably also use the M1-42 mill gib lock on the cross slide but you would have to fine tune the locking point by griding the tip.. Robert & Susan Downs - Houston wa5cab dot com (Web Store) MVPA 9480 ------- Re: 12" lathe headstock alignment Posted by: wa5cabx~xxcs.com wa5cab Date: Sun Jul 26, 2015 8:02 pm ((PDT)) In a message dated 07/26/2015, atlas_craftsmanx~xxyahoogroups.com writes: >If I understand correctly, this just replaces the 10-32 or 1/4"-28 1" >dog point set screws, parts #10 and #30 on the compound rest parts >diagram? Yes. That's what all gib locks do. >Seems like an off-the-shelf adjustable handle ought to work ok for this, >unless I'm missing something. Either a male one with the point of the >screw filed round or a female one with an extra long dog point set screw? Probably, at least for the male and except that you DO NOT want to file the point round. And for the short time that the cheap Mainland Chinese parts will last. No for the female. Robert Downs - Houston ------- Zamak gear wobble/warp - 12" feed drive train [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: lovex~xxcvbt-web.org geoffrey_in_siam_atlas_12in_3991 Date: Mon Aug 3, 2015 2:39 am ((PDT)) I have an Atlas 3991 12x36 lathe: free-standing, under-cabinet motor, quick-change gear box. I replaced the sliding gear last year. It is now bent out of plane and has a wobble. What technique might be used to straighten it? Is heating advised? [big snip] [NOTE TO FILE: There are other parts to this message but I am going to restrict the content here to the topic of the problematic Zamac gear. So too during the follow up messages. The persons replying have changed the subject line a few times. Full text is at Yahoo.] ------- Re: Zamak gear wobble/warp - 12" feed drive train Posted by: paulguenterx~xxatt.net paulguenterx~xxatt.net Date: Mon Aug 3, 2015 4:25 pm ((PDT)) I never tried to straighten zamak but had good luck with aluminum and a type of steel. I would lay the gear in between 2 flat sufaces and apply pressure in a hydraulic press; if it doesn't work i would replace the gear. If you need help with Clausing i will get the gear for you and send it to you. GP ------- Re: Zamak gear wobble/warp - 12" feed drive train Posted by: lovex~xxcvbt-web.org geoffrey_in_siam_atlas_12in_3991 Date: Tue Aug 4, 2015 3:03 am ((PDT)) OK, we were able to flatten the gear back out fairly well. Something did eat at a few teeth. [big snip] ------- Re: Countershaft motor pully hub bent how to correct? [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: lovex~xxcvbt-web.org geoffrey_in_siam_atlas_12in_3991 Date: Sun Aug 9, 2015 11:05 pm ((PDT)) Dear Bob, I have the same problem. How have you solved your problem? ------- Re: Countershaft motor pully hub bent how to correct? Posted by: "Dave Clements" davidcclementsx~xxgmail.com dustydave_1999 Date: Mon Aug 10, 2015 7:53 am ((PDT)) Make a spacer that will support the hub at the level you desire. Then set it in the press with the outer sheave supported all the way around and apply gentle pressure then heat all the spokes with a propane torch then apply gentle pressure again repeat until the hub is flat on the spacer then heat it one more time and let it cool slow. Dusty ------- Zamak counter shaft pulley bending [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: lovex~xxcvbt-web.org geoffrey_in_siam_atlas_12in_3991 Date: Fri Aug 14, 2015 6:22 pm ((PDT)) Bob wrote me: "I took mine in at work and had our machinist bend it back more like gently rap it back. He chucked it in a lathe and used a rubber mallet to whack it back straight rotating it and checking it as he did. You definitely will not need a press of any kind; the Zamak material is soft and somewhat malleable as long as you do not overdo it. He either made a shaft to chuck it in the lathe or had something lying around this part. I do not remember." ------- Straightening a Zamak counter shaft pulley Posted by: lovex~xxcvbt-web.org geoffrey_in_siam_atlas_12in_3991 Date: Fri Aug 14, 2015 6:25 pm ((PDT)) I took mine into a shop and asked them to heat it and press it. They pressed it cold. It's a lot straighter. ------- Re: Countershaft motor pully hub bent how to correct? Posted by: lovex~xxcvbt-web.org geoffrey_in_siam_atlas_12in_3991 Date: Fri Aug 14, 2015 11:29 pm ((PDT)) I also offset the belts by 1/4 revolution to put any hard spots out of phase. There is no noticeable vibration now. I'm quite happy about that. ------- Headstock dis-assembly [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: "Roger F. Karl" RFKARLx~xxaol.com acmeeng Date: Sun Aug 9, 2015 5:04 pm ((PDT)) Hi group, I am restoring a pair of Atlas Frakenlathes and am in the process of disassembling the headstock which appears to be a 10F with Timken roller bearings. I have been using the YouTube video "Atlas Ten Inch Lathe Headstock Gear & Pulley Replacement Belt Change" by citadog as a general guide. I have the "aft" or rear: Collet, Spindle Gear, and Spacer removed, and have removed the front bearing dust cover and freed the front roller bearing (still on the spindle) from the headstock casting. The set screws have been loosened and the Bull Gear, Pulley, Back Gear and Collet are free to move horizontally on the Spindle I am trying to remove the Woodruff key associated with the Bull Gear from the assembly. I can get it to tilt up but can not remove it. I believe that this is the next logical step in the dis-assembly and I'm thinking that it should go smoothly. However, I can not get it out. The video seems a little unclear on this and seems to recommend forcing it against the forward inside bearing dust cover. As a matter of reference the dust cover came out hard and required persuasion with a brass hammer -- perhaps things have taken a set after the last 75 years.In any case, I would appreciate any guidance on removal of this Woodruff Key. I have found that when something is hard to dis-assemble, frequently, the answer is not a bigger hammer and more force but rather a fresh approach. God bless you all and best regards Roger Manchester, Maine ------- Re: Headstock dis-assembly Posted by: "Scott Henion" shenionx~xxshdesigns.org shdesigns2003 Date: Sun Aug 9, 2015 5:13 pm ((PDT)) You put two blocks of wood between the bull gear, then drive the spindle right until the woodruff key clears. I used two wood brush handles. Details are in the Atlas bulletins: http://scottandersonpipes.com/atlas_press/servicebulletins.htm Scott G. Henion, Stone Mountain, GA Craftsman 12x36 lathe: http://shdesigns.org/Craftsman12x36 Welding pages and homemade welder: http://shdesigns.org/Welding ------- Re: Headstock dis-assembly Posted by: "Paul J. Ste. Marie" taigx~xxste-marie.org pstemari Date: Sun Aug 9, 2015 6:34 pm ((PDT)) I used a pair of extra-long needlenose pliers (Channellock 738, http://amzn.com/B000GHWDXE), but had to alternate tapping the spindle and pulling on the key in tiny increments. AFAICT there's no position where the key can go from horizontal to vertical in a single move. You have to expose as much of the key as you can and lift it, which gets you a little more room to tap the spindle further through. Repeat 5-6 times and it comes out completely. I thought mine was stuck but it just needed some patience. ------- Re: Headstock dis-assembly Posted by: wa5cabx~xxcs.com wa5cab Date: Sun Aug 9, 2015 9:05 pm ((PDT)) Roger, First, the parts that you are calling "collets" are called "collars". Whatever you do, don't just drive the spindle straight out. There have been reports of people disassembling headstocks and finding that a PO had done that and literally broached a slot through the dust cover with the woodruff key. I always assumed that you would have had to have driven the bull gear against the right end of the headstock and with it to hold the key in the slot, driven the key through the cover. A pair of straight slip-joint pliers in the large opening position (sometimes called gas or water-pump pliers) is probably a better tool to grab the key with than fixed joint long nose as they will grab it at the point where if sticks out of the spindle instead of only touching the top corners. Robert Downs - Houston wa5cab dot com (Web Store) MVPA 9480 ------- Re: Headstock dis-assembly Posted by: "Roger F. Karl" RFKARLx~xxaol.com acmeeng Date: Mon Aug 10, 2015 8:33 pm ((PDT)) Hi, A sincere note of appreciation to Bob, Scott and Paul for your response to my request for information on removing the Bull Gear Woodruff key. Bob, thank you for the correction, re collet vs collars -- suffered an "Old Guy" brain cramp combined with dyslexia -- the correction is needed to prevent confusion. I did not think of the key working like a broach on the internal bearing shield if driven into the shield. I'm sure it would cut/broach a really nice rectangular notch in the shield. Good news the key is OUT combining the techniques suggested and the cautions of determination and patience. I used a long nose vice grip and leveraged the key up by placing a screw driver in the crotch of the joint of the vice grip and the C.I. housing of the headstock served as the fulcrum point -- still a slow process but without any drama or apparent damage. Two other questions: I am trying to do a completed tear-down prior to powder coating the housing. Is the rear roller bearing simply pressed out and are there any cautions to be noted? Relative to cleaning the roller bearings, I would typically use Stoddard Solvent (odorless paint thinner) a dry cleaning solution to dissolve the old lubricants which have gone rancid and shellacked, Is there a popular alternate? In the bad old days I used to use CarbonTetraChloride in significantly large quantities which was uniquely effective. Thanks again for taking the time to share your knowledge. God bless you all and best regards, Roger, Manchester, Maine ------- Re: Headstock dis-assembly Posted by: "Paul J. Ste. Marie" taigx~xxste-marie.org pstemari Date: Wed Aug 12, 2015 1:01 am ((PDT)) > In the bad old days I used to use CarbonTetraChloride in > significantly large quantities which was uniquely effective. That stuff is hell on your liver. Solvents come in three flavors, toxic, flammable, and ineffective. Modern halogen-free brake cleaner falls in category #2 and is pretty effective, but you need to be careful about the vapors. It's not precisely non-toxic, but it isn't the ticking time bomb that the chlorinated stuff is. I'd start with WD-40 or mineral spirits and save the brake cleaner for the last bits. ------- broken gear pic [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: "Steve Budd" sbuddx~xxrogers.com Date: Mon Aug 17, 2015 8:51 am ((PDT)) All, Took things apart this morning....here are some before cleaning pics. The gear that runs along the track has one broken tooth. There was some wood sawdust in the works..and a few metal chips. Does not take much to impede the gear operation. Any hints on removing the old gear....is it a press fit or peened on the small shaft? thanks for comments, Steve 2 of 2 Photo(s) https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/atlas_craftsman/attachments/351444951 IMG_6202.JPG IMG_6203.JPG ------- Re: broken gear pic [2 Attachments] Posted by: "Lance Eggleston" gbofx~xxverizon.net crashbone256 Date: Mon Aug 17, 2015 9:35 am ((PDT)) Steve, Both, it’s a very tight sliding fit on the shaft and then the shaft center is punched (peened) to force the material slightly over the edge, ala mushroom. I used a Dremel with grinder to remove the slight mushroom and then a small gear puller to remove the gear. lance ------- Re: broken gear pic Posted by: "Pete Mclaughlin" pete_mclaughlin_93555x~xxyahoo.com Date: Mon Aug 17, 2015 4:48 pm ((PDT)) Steve: Take a look at these videos on rebuilding the atlas lathe apron. http://youtu.be/XPzznLTxJ94 He starts with the apron already disassembled but you will see it going back together as he rebuilds the handwheel and its gear chain to the rack under the bed. Sincerely Pete McLauglin ------- Re: broken gear pic Posted by: "Steve Budd" sbuddx~xxrogers.com Date: Mon Aug 17, 2015 5:36 pm ((PDT)) Thanks Pete, The second video is the part I need to know...removing and reinstalling the little gear...while on the casting. I sure hope I don't need to "make" that casting...not ready for that. appreciate the advice, Steve ------- Re: broken gear pic Posted by: "Lance Eggleston" gbofx~xxverizon.net crashbone256 Date: Mon Aug 17, 2015 5:57 pm ((PDT)) If by "casting" you mean the 3 legged traverse gear case, be advised that is VERY fragile and is one of the most oft broken bits on the lathe. You may want to consider removing the traverse case and installing the gear onto the shaft alone. lance ------- Re: broken gear pic Posted by: "Steve Budd" sbuddx~xxrogers.com Date: Mon Aug 17, 2015 6:18 pm ((PDT)) Yes...I need to learn the correct part names...and remove the traverse gear case. Will keep you guys posted re progress, when new gear arrives. Looks like heart surgery, with a gear on each side of the delicate gear case. Slow and steady, Steve ------- Re: Index pin for Atlas 12 x 36 #3991 [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: "Roger F. Karl" RFKARLx~xxaol.com acmeeng Date: Sun Aug 30, 2015 1:52 pm ((PDT)) On 8/26/2015, lovex~xxcvbt-web.org [atlas_craftsman] wrote: >> I've seen that my lathe has a Back Gear with 60 index holes. My Instructions and parts Manual shows a pin for engaging these holes. I can't find the pin on my lathe. Neither can I see where it might go in the headstock. Can someone post a photo (or point me to photo that has been posted) of where this pin goes in the head stock casting. << Kevin Morgan kmorgan6x~xxoptonline.net wrote: > I too have a 12x36" Craftsman/Atlas with the index holes on the back gear. Not all lathes are created equal and mine is one of those that does not have the pin/plunger installed. No hole on the casting, no indication of where you would drill to fabricate one. Maybe make up some kind of locator, say a pin that fits tight into an index hole held in a "U" shaped holder (like a caliper body) that bridges the casting with another pin/punch located on the axis that you could position and use to mark a suitable spot to drill. Good luck and let me know what you decide and if you're successful. < I have been disassembling the headstock of a 10D (Frankenlathe) prior to powder coating the headstock casting and thought that this would be a perfect time to capture the information that you need. I do not believe that there is any substantial difference in the index pin location and operation of the 10" or 12". To my eye there are certain important factors to keep in mind when adapting a blank headstock to take and function with an indexing pin. - The location of the pin Must precisely align with the index holes on the Bull Gear. - The Index Pin Must fit smoothly and firmly thru the headstock and into the index hole. The amount of play will determine the precision of the assembly in use. - The small engaging pin or point of the Index Pin joins the main body of the Index Pin with a generous radius to prevent breakage in use due to the "notching effect" which would be set up by a sharp radius. One could substitute an engaging pin of uniform diameter driven into the main body of the Index Pin in an interference fit. I would recommend the engaging pin be driven into the main body at least 3 times the diameter of the engaging pin. - The ball bearing and spring are not decorative but intended to provide sufficient friction to prevent the Index pin from moving forward and engaging or attempting to engage the index holes while the Bull Gear is energized/in motion. Having the steel Index Pin engage the Zamak Bull Gear while it is motion would be a disaster for the Zamak Bull Gear. I can easily see it cutting a groove in the gear. One option would be to make the Index Pin removable when not in use, which is what I have done on my watchmakers lathe that has a similar arrangement -- previous owner had sheared off the pin and scarred up the index hole plate. If you need dimensions let me know. God bless you all and best regards Roger F Karl Manchester, Maine ------- Re: Index pin for Atlas 12 x 36 #3991 Posted by: "Paul J. Ste. Marie" taigx~xxste-marie.org pstemari Date: Mon Aug 31, 2015 9:49 am ((PDT)) On 8/30/2015 9:32 PM, wa5cabx~xxcs.com [atlas_craftsman] wrote: > How many people on here have 10" or 12" Atlas or Craftsman lathes > and can't locate an index pin on them? I looked last night and didn't see any provision for an index pin. The bull gear has the holes, but the headstock has no pin or a hole to install one in. Drilling it accurately had to have been a major PITA. I'm guessing that the combination of the effort to machine the headstock for the pin and the damage done by inadvertent use of the pin resulted in its removal. ------- Re: Index pin for Atlas 12 x 36 #3991 Posted by: wa5cabx~xxcs.com wa5cab Date: Mon Aug 31, 2015 1:10 pm ((PDT)) Paul, First, what is your model number and serial number? There shouldn't have been any difficulty in drilling the holes for the pin and ball/spring. Another 30 seconds during manufacture. With the headstock set up to bore the holes for spindle bearings and countershaft excentrics, from the center of the spindle hole step over to the right and drill the pin hole rotate the casting forward 90 degrees and drill the sping hole. Step back over and drill the hole for the front oil cup. I have a dozen or so of various scans of various vintage manuals on the Atlas or Craftsman 12" Commercial (1/2" bed). Out of the whole bunch, only one does not show the pin, ball and spring on the headstock parts drawing. This is a manual on the Craftsman 101.27580 through 28570 (less some numbers in between). Unlike most Atlas manuals, all but one of the Craftsman manuals is undated. However, this particular scan has "Serial 389" hand written on the front so undoubtedly from late 1957 or early 1958. The various Atlas manuals are all dated 1961, 1964 or 1975 (yes, it's strange that none are dated 1967). From which we can conclude that for whatever reason Atlas decided to drop the index pin from the so-called Commercial models and then pretty quickly added it back. Or someone screwed up and forgot to put it on the drawings. By 1961, it had been restored and was there until the end, as my 3996 was made during the last year of production and it has it. So far, I have one Craftsman serial number (101.28940 #1416) without a pin, and one Atlas 3991 (need the S/N) without it. I'll add that anyone with an early S/N and no pin definitely shouldn't try to hand-drill the pin hole with the headstock still mounted on the lathe. And before anyone attempts it, someone should call Clausing and ask Jo to give them the hole circle diameter of the index holes off of the 10-243 drawing (Clausing probably still sells the gear so they won't release the actual drawing). Robert & Susan Downs - Houston wa5cab dot com (Web Store) MVPA 9480 ------- Re: Index pin for Atlas 12 x 36 #3991 Posted by: "Paul J. Ste. Marie" taigx~xxste-marie.org pstemari Date: Mon Aug 31, 2015 1:40 pm ((PDT)) On 8/31/2015, wa5cabx~xxcs.com [atlas_craftsman] wrote: > First, what is your model number and serial number? Model: 101.28940 S/N: 001663 Maybe, but a boring setup isn't the same as a drill setup. The other, and more pertinent, thing that I see is that this headstock casting doesn't have much meat in the area that you'd have to drill the hole for the pin. While it's almost an inch thick around the bearing, the casting drops to either side of the bearing and is fairly thin. Looking inside the casting, the portion of the headstock around the radius of the index holes is only 1/4" or so thick. See attached photo -- it's a lousy picture of the front, but the back is a similar situation. Maybe the casting is beefier on the ones with the pin, or there is a boss of some sort of accommodate the pin? https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/atlas_craftsman/attachments/725748363 ------- Re: Index pin for Atlas 12 x 36 #3991 [1 Attachment] Posted by: wa5cabx~xxcs.com wa5cab Date: Mon Aug 31, 2015 2:50 pm ((PDT)) OK, thanks. This will be important to know to anyone with one of the early machines without the pin. Although Atlas did not change the part numbers of either the headstock casting or the spindle covers, and did not change the drawing of the headstock castings in the parts manuals, they must have changed both parts. The top surface of the headstock casting sorta visible in your photograph is well below the spindle and bearing axis. And the drawings of the castings show it as being that way in the rear, and at the same height as the equivalent surface to the rear and right of the left bearing. So the spindle cover must have run straight across at the rear where it nearly sits down on the top rear edge of the headstock. On my 3996, the left part behind the rear bearing looks pretty much like the drawing. But behind the right bearing it is built up to above the spindle centerline and is as thick as the width of the lip that presumably runs all around the top of your casting except where the parts carrying the two bearings rise up out of it. The holes for the pin iand spring/ball are drilled through that thick pad. And the right rear corner of the spindle cover casting is notched out to clear it. So anyone wanting to add the pin to an early headstock will either need to add a block of steel or cast iron to the top of the existing casting or replace the casting. If anyone wants to do the latter, I have a casting that I should never need on a 101.28910 that I bought for parts. You would also have to saw the corner out of your spindle cover to clear the pin pad area. I'm going to add that although my machine has the pin, and I have once or thrice pushed it into a hole in the bull gear, I have never actually used it. So I'm not sure whether if mine didn't have it, I would go to the trouble to swap headstocks. :-) ------- Re: Index pin for Atlas 12 x 36 #3991 Posted by: anthrhodesx~xxaol.com anthrhodes Date: Tue Sep 1, 2015 8:02 pm ((PDT)) To anyone who has a headstock without the pin and is willing to remove the headstock from the lathe and the spindle from the headstock the process to provide a pin should be fairly straightforward. Measure the diameter of the indexing hole circle. Measuring is better than reading the drawing or using a value supplied by somebody else, it's your bull gear. Nominally you want the radius which is D/2. If your indexing circle is not accurately centered on the spindle center no amount of adjusting the pin position will help so use D/2 as measured on your bull gear. Make a fixture with a disk on one end which will fit closely in the bearing hole of the headstock and with a hole drilled at D/2 from the center of the disk. Select a location where you want the index pin hole drilled in the headstock. It can be in front of the spindle, or behind, or anywhere in the semicircle below those locations, wherever suits you, it doesn't have to be in the same location as everybody else's headstock. Actually, probably best if it's close to the top of the headstock casting so that you can drill a cross hole for the spring and ball which help to keep the index pin from drifting in and out. Mount the headstock on your drill press table with the spindle axis perpendicular to the work table. (Actually you want the axis parallel to the stroke of the drill press quill but we'll suppose that that's perpendicular to the work table.) Ideally, spot face the location where you want to drill the hole, then drill it a close fit for the index pin you will use. The pin can be original equipment or made to replicate original equipment or any design which suits you. At this point, assemble the headstock, install the pin, and determine that it fits correctly and easily enters the indexing holes. Rotate the spindle and try several holes around the bull gear to prove that everything is correct. If you've missed the correct radius (D/2) no problem. Drill your new hole oversize and make a bushing to fit into the hole with a hole in the bushing off center in the bushing but a close fit for the pin. Assemble the headstock with the eccentric bushing, install the pin, and rotate the bushing until the pin lines up with the holes in the bull gear. Check several locations around the bull gear. Reassemble the lathe and return to using it as suits you. Just some thoughts. Anthony Berkeley, Calif. ------- Re: Worn cross slide nut [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: wa5cabx~xxcs.com wa5cab Date: Thu Sep 3, 2015 10:14 pm ((PDT)) In a message dated 09/03/2015, digorokx~xxyahoo.com writes: > I have a 101 lathe. The cross slide nut, 9-306 is worn out. > Lots of play in the slide. > Besides just changing it, is there a trick to make it tight again? I'll mention that there are three possible sources of end to end play in the cross slide. The first is the brass cross-feed nut. The second is wear in the threads of the cross-feed screw. This is usually worse in the center portion of the travel. The third is end float in the cross feed screw. This is usually adjustable back to near-zero. And on a machine that has never been adjusted (which appears to be typical) can often reduce the cross slide end play by one half. The answer to your question is basically no, other than adjusting the cross-feed screw end float. If the nut is worn out, the only cure is to replace it. There isn't enough material around the threaded hole for splitting the nut and installing clamp screws. Also, there might be a shim between the nut and the bottom of the cross slide. My 3996 didn't have one but some must as it's shown in all of the manuals. This is actually rectangular but all of the 12" manuals show it as circular. I think that I corrected this in all of the copies in Files, but that didn't correct any originals or files from other sites. Robert Downs - Houston wa5cab dot com (Web Store) MVPA 9480 ------- Re: Worn cross slide nut Posted by: digorokx~xxyahoo.com digorok Date: Fri Sep 4, 2015 12:26 am ((PDT)) Thanks for the info. I saw the ebay listings. Probably buy the new one. I checked the end play before I took it apart. I can't tell if it's the nut or the screw. I would think the nut is worn as it's brass and the screw is metal. The screw looks good, the nut not so much. I'll clean them up better and check again. ------- Re: Worn cross slide nut Posted by: wa5cabx~xxcs.com wa5cab Date: Fri Sep 4, 2015 8:52 am ((PDT)) digorok, The easiest and relatively accurate way to differentiate between nut wear and feed screw wear is based upon the assumption that users almost never routinely operate the machine with the screw almost out of the nut. After adjusting the feed screw end float to near zero (which is best done with the screw completely out of the nut), run the cross slide to the rear until one or two screw threads are sticking out of the nut. Take out the slack by turning the crank CCW about 1/8 turn. Zero the dial. Turn the crank CW until all the slack is taken out and read and record (mentally or otherwise) the dial reading. With a new screw and a new nut, this would typically be under 0.010". Back the cross slide up to the position where you think it probably spends most of its working time and repeat the procedure. The difference in the two readings is approximately the screw wear. Robert Downs - Houston ------- Re: Worn cross slide nut Posted by: "Jerrold Tiers" jerdalx~xxsbcglobal.net jtiers Date: Fri Sep 4, 2015 8:10 pm ((PDT)) There is a fourth source of slop, even for Atlas. If the screw holding the nut is not tight, the nut may move or cock allowing extra play. Some or all Alas have a stud on the nut to hold it in position, but that can vary in tightness, especially if it has been allowed to slop around loosely due to screw not being tightened. Jerry ------- Re: Worn cross slide nut Posted by: wa5cabx~xxcs.com wa5cab Date: Fri Sep 4, 2015 10:41 pm ((PDT)) That;s true. On most machines, the screw is a round head slotted one on the cross slide just in front of the compound. I didn't mention it because it being loose is a maintenance issue, not a wear issue. Robert Downs - Houston ------- Re: Worn cross slide nut Posted by: "Jon Elson" elsonx~xxpico-systems.com jmelson2 Date: Sat Sep 5, 2015 10:19 am ((PDT)) That screw is the oiling point for the crossfeed nut. It should be tightened securely after oiling the nut. Jon ------- Re: Worn cross slide nut Posted by: wa5cabx~xxcs.com wa5cab Date: Sat Sep 5, 2015 11:33 am ((PDT)) Sorry. Perhaps my directional terminology was misleading, probably caused by the fact that I think of the front of the compound slide as facing the work piece, not the operator. To edit, "the screw in question is the first of two round head slotted ones on the far side of the cross slide from where the operator normally stands". The two oiling screws are on the carriage between the dove tail sides and are headless slot set screws. Robert D ------- Re: Worn cross slide nut Posted by: anthrhodesx~xxaol.com anthrhodes Date: Fri Sep 4, 2015 10:14 pm ((PDT)) digorok (a name please ?) As has been said, the sources of excess end play are pretty much, clearance in the thrust bearings of the bushing supporting the hand crank, and clearance between the feed screw / feed nut interface. You say you've checked the thrust bearings and, presumably, you're satisfied that it's not a major factor in your end play problem. Clearance between the feed screw and the feed nut could have been excessive from original assembly of the lathe. We will presume not, which means it is due to wear in the screw, or the nut, or both. It has been said here and many other places before, but we will say it again because there is a first time for everybody. If the excess play is consistent over the entire travel of the cross slide the major wear is probably in the nut. If the play is minimal with the slide close to the operator, gradually gets worse as the slide moves towards the center of its travel, then begins to reduce again as the slide gets close to the farthest position, it is pretty much a given that the major wear is in the screw. The reason will be apparent, most work is done with the slide in the middle of its cross travel whereas there will be some but less wear towards each end of travel. It's possible to have the major wear factor be in a different section of the screw, in particular if the machine has been used mostly for a dedicated job or based on the size of the majority of the user's work (clock spindles or automobile axles ?) but center of travel is usual. Lets map the end play. Run the slide to the rear until it stops traveling, the nut is no longer engaged with the feed screw. Now, pushing the slide towards the front with one hand, turn the crank two or three turns to reengage the nut. Push and pull on the slide, measure the motion, and record the value. Retract the slide towards the operator 1/2", repeat the play measurement, and record again. Repeat every half inch until you get to the front of the motion. Having verified that the end play in the bushing is not the problem: Excess play everywhere along the entire cross traverse, replace the feed nut. Limited end play at the front and rear of the traverse but excess play in the center, replace the screw. Don't be afraid to replace both the screw and the nut. If, from the above procedures, you know that the nut is bad, junk it, or melt it, or convert it to some other purpose, but do not save it for future use as a feed nut on your lathe or anybody else's lathe. If you're replacing the screw even though the wear is marginal, it might be worth saving for reuse or as stock to be used for other purposes but be certain to label it with information regarding its wear condition at the time of its retirement. This is an exercise in logic, hope it's useful. Anthony Berkeley, Calif. ------- Re: Worn cross slide nut Posted by: "Donald Lewis" ddean49x~xxyahoo.com ddean49 Date: Sat Sep 5, 2015 8:31 am ((PDT)) "I can't tell if it is the nut or the screw" I have always been told that with sliding fit parts if the wear is bad enough to replace or recondition one side it needs done on both. Running a new part against an old is a recipe for early failure. If the nut and screw are determined to be the problem you now have a choice to make, proper repair or junk it together to make it work. It's like putting rings in an old car is NOT rebuilding the engine. I have done it to get by when the rest of the car didn't justify a full rebuild, but it is a gamble at best. Just my 2 cents. Don ------- Re: removing apron on carriage [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: "Paul J. Ste. Marie" taigx~xxste-marie.org pstemari Date: Sun Oct 4, 2015 8:54 pm ((PDT)) On 10/4/2015, mushface1x~xxgmail.com wrote: > How do you remove the apron on the carriage of a 10" atlas lathe. > I need to repair the power feed and need to disassemble it. On the 12" you remove the leadscrew support bracket near the tailstock, open the half-nuts, pull the leadscrew out towards the tailstock, and then remove the two cheesehead 1/4-20 machine screws with a #4 phillips screwdriver. I believe the 10" is the same. I lucked out on the #4 phillips screwdriver front because a bit-driver set I have from ChapmanMfg.com happened to include one. I replaced them with SHCS's. ------- Re: removing apron on carriage Posted by: mattbrandsemax~xxyahoo.com mattbrandsema Date: Sun Oct 4, 2015 10:14 pm ((PDT)) It depends which model you have. The model F's have a detachable apron that is simply held on with two screws on the top of the carriage. (You would need to remove the lead screw first.) The older model D's do not have a detachable apron and you need to remove the entire carriage. It is all cast as one assembly. ------- Re: removing apron on carriage Posted by: "brokenwrench1 ." brokenwrenchx~xxgmail.com brokewrench Date: Mon Oct 5, 2015 12:18 am ((PDT)) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7dAA_Uw-XNY this is the disassembly video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iiWZyQTEXz0 Robert Halbrook ------- How to remove the saddle from a 101.07403 [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: ecombs2x~xxcinci.rr.com mrflashlite54 Date: Mon Dec 14, 2015 11:57 am ((PST)) Hi I bought an atlas 101.07403 lathe and have been taking it apart one section at a time to clean and inspect the parts. The tailstock is back together and I am moving on to the carriage. I took the tool post slide and cleaned it up and painted it and the swivels, upper and lower to clean and oil. I am down to the saddle now and not sure if I am missing something or if it is just grime and gunk keeping it together but I don't want to pry to hard and break something. I removed the 2 larger phillips screws and a smaller one on the operators side that hold it to the apron and took the back bearing plate off. It looks like there are a couple of pins that hold it to the apron and I pried it up enough to see the pins but didn't know how the apron carriage and lead screw are all connected?? and if the saddle should just lift off. thanks for any advice Ed C. ------- Re: How to remove the saddle from a 101.07403 Posted by: wa5cabx~xxcs.com wa5cab Date: Mon Dec 14, 2015 1:22 pm ((PST)) Ed, It sounds as though you have not removed the lead screw. Reinstall the two large Phillips head screws just finger tight. Open the half-nuts. Remove the two screws that attach the right lead screw bearing to the bed. Extract the lead screw with bearing. At this point, if you loosen (safer to actually remove it) the carriage gib you should be able to slide the carriage assembly complete off of the right end of the ways. However, to lift the carriage straight off: Remove the apron from the saddle (remove the two Phillips head screws and it should now drop down with all but one of the various gears going with it). Remove the carriage gib and retract the adjusting screws far enough that they cannot touch the rear way. I'm not sure what you are calling the "back bearing plate". If you mean the rear carriage hold-down plate, OK. If not, remove it. Remove the front carriage hold-down plate. In both cases, keep any shims removed with their respective plates. The saddle should now lift straight up. Note that if you intend to remove the cross feed screw and bearing, it is better to do that before removing the other parts in order to remove the carriage. The bearing can be a bear to break loose and it is much easier if the carriage is still held down by the hold-down plates. Robert Downs - Houston wa5cab dot com (Web Store) MVPA 9480 ------- Re: How to remove the saddle from a 101.07403 Posted by: ecombs2x~xxcinci.rr.com mrflashlite54 Date: Mon Dec 14, 2015 1:54 pm ((PST)) Hi Robert, thanks for the info. No I hadn't removed the leadscrew and was wondering if that might be something I needed to do. I'll try to get it apart tomorrow and let you know the results. Thanks, Ed C. ------- Re: How to remove the saddle from a 101.07403 Posted by: wa5cabx~xxcs.com wa5cab Date: Mon Dec 14, 2015 4:25 pm ((PST)) OK. The left end of the lead screw was originally a slip fit into the left hand lead screw bearing in front of the headstock. Sometimes they are stuck. Run the carriage toward the tailstock end of the bed to support the leadscrew after you remove the right bearing screws. If you still have the carriage traverse handwheel in place, you can engage the half nuts and use the handwheel to pull or help pull the leadscrew out of the left bearing. Then disengage the half nuts and the lead screw should slide right out. It is supported inside the apron assembly by the keyed miter gear/bearing. It will help keep the lead screw from snagging on the opened half nuts after it clears that miter gear if you put a stack of wood blocks under it just to the right of the apron. Robert Downs - Houston ------- Re: How to remove the saddle from a 101.07403 Posted by: ecombs2x~xxcinci.rr.com mrflashlite54 Date: Tue Dec 15, 2015 7:54 am ((PST)) Hi Robert, I got the lead screw out with no problem, it slid right out. The saddle came right off with no problems and so far it looks like everything is in pretty good shape. I will take the saddle in to work after the Holidays and clean it up and paint it so it will be done and then on to the headstock after the 1st of the year. One thing that I have noticed is that there are none of the felt wiper parts on the left side of the saddle (toward the headstock) both seem to be missing??? Is there anyplace that still has these or is it something I'm going to have to wait and find on Ebay or some other site. Thanks, Ed C. ------- Re: How to remove the saddle from a 101.07403 Posted by: wa5cabx~xxcs.com wa5cab Date: Tue Dec 15, 2015 10:02 am ((PST)) Ed, Clausing still had the felts and the wipers early last year. There was also someone on eBay selling properly stamped felt wipers but last I checked, they did not have the rubber wipers. I do not know whether they still have the steel covers or not but probably. There was also someone either on here or on H-M who made some custom covers to fit to his 6". But if Clausing still has the originals, even at current machine tool part prices I would pay the price rather than pay the time. Sears Parts Direct may also still have them but Clausing will probably be less expensive. Robert Downs - Houston ------- [atlas_craftsman] Worn carriage apron hole for handwheel shaft, Atlas 10F lathe. Posted by: aeroronx~xxbellsouth.net aeroronx~xxbellsouth.net Date: Tue Dec 15, 2015 3:31 pm ((PST)) Hi all. Thought I'd share what I'm doing and perhaps others have comments on other repair techniques.... My Atlas 10F carriage hand wheel has been floppy and has wobbled for years because the apron's hole has worn bellmouthed. It's bugged me, and I'm finally going to fix it now that I'm rebuilding the lathe. The diametric clearance of the hole on the 1/2" shaft is 0.017" in front (hand wheel side), and 0.006" at the back (gear side). (See photo.) I do not want to bore out the hole bigger than necessary for repair. The smallest OD for a commercially available 1/2"ID bronze bushing is 5/8" (a 1/16" wall bushing). This is too big. No one I could find makes a rolled bronze split sleeve bearing (the super thin wall bushing) in imperial (inch) dimensions, nor a thin wall wrapped bearing. In any case, the thinnest available wall in the metric rolled bronze bushings is 1mm (0.039") thick wall...still more than I want. (The rolled bronze bushings are also usually dimpled or perforated, which I do not want.) Therefore, I'll be making a rolled bronze bushing myself out of 0.008" phosphor bronze sheet metal. This means I only have to ream the apron hole to 0.520" to get a 0.004" diametric clearance (a wobbly 33/64" chucking reamer?). I've done this repair technique several times on other machines and it has worked out fine. The hard part is to get exactly the right circumference to make it a light press fit. Sometimes I silver solder (5%Ag) or tin-lead solder the seam with a soldering iron and zinc chloride flux. There are a myriad of ways to ensure the bushing does not rotate in its new home...bonding, staking, a tab in a depression, etc. When installed the 0.1875" oil hole will be drilled through. The ball valve oil hole cover, aka check ball plug, is removed first using a slug to press it to back it out...(see photo). Comments welcome. No JB Weld fix, please ;) If there's interest, I'll post photos of the rolled bushing when I get to putting the lathe back together. Ron Crowell possibly a 1942 Atlas 10-F x 36" (TH54"). *Does the photo show? https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/atlas_craftsman/attachments/1786528318 oil plug remove and hole slop.jpg ------- Re: Worn carriage apron hole for handwheel shaft, Atlas 10F lathe. Posted by: "Pete Mclaughlin" pete_mclaughlin_93555x~xxyahoo.com Date: Tue Dec 15, 2015 5:01 pm ((PST)) Hi Ron. Why are you hesitant about boring out the apron casting? Here is a youtube video where the Atlas apron hand wheel bearing was bored out and a bronze bushing pressed in with no problem: http://youtu.be/XPzznLTxJ94 Sincerely Pete McLaughlin ------- Re: Worn carriage apron hole for handwheel shaft, Atlas 10F lathe. Posted by: "William R Meyers" wmrmeyersx~xxsbcglobal.net oldstudentmsgt Date: Tue Dec 15, 2015 10:45 pm ((PST)) Any reason not to fill or coat the hole with brazing spelter, and drill/ream to the correct size? For cast iron, you're supposed to use nickle welding rod to weld if you'll machine the part. Reaming is machining, so you could weld it. You can also use nickle-silver (aka German Silver) brazing rod, or brass rod, even. Any of those would give you a good surface to re-machine. And there is nothing wrong with JB Weld if nothing else will work. ;) And I probably should note that I've read quite a bit about this, not yet done it, except to repair threaded holes that have been damaged. Plain brass brazing rod works fine then. Will be doing it soon, I think, to the broken pieces of the belt guards for my Atlas MF, have bought both nickle welding rod, from Forney, for this specific purpose, and nickle-silver brazing rod. I've done a bunch of brazing and hard silver soldering over the past several decades, not too much welding. ;) Bill in OKC William R. Meyers, MSgt, USAF(Ret.) ------- Re: Worn carriage apron hole for handwheel shaft, Atlas 10F lathe. Posted by: "brokenwrench1 ." brokenwrenchx~xxgmail.com brokewrench Date: Tue Dec 15, 2015 10:59 pm ((PST)) Unless you have a reason to keep your original one, a good used one off ebay for $20 plus shipping is what I would do. ------- Re: Worn carriage apron hole for handwheel shaft, Atlas 10F lathe. Posted by: "William R Meyers" wmrmeyersx~xxsbcglobal.net oldstudentmsgt Date: Tue Dec 15, 2015 11:05 pm ((PST)) If I'd seen that before I posted, I'd have agreed with you. For less than $35, a good part delivered to your door? Sure thing. Been times, including pretty recently, where I couldn't have found the $35, and he may be in that boat, but otherwise fixing it is not the best thing to do. And he can keep the worn part, or repair it anyway and then keep it, as a spare. Bill in OKC William R. Meyers, MSgt, USAF(Ret.) ------- Re: Worn carriage apron hole for handwheel shaft, Atlas 10F lathe. Posted by: "Carvel Webb" carvelwx~xxabsamail.co.za cwlathes Date: Tue Dec 15, 2015 11:38 pm ((PST)) Another option which I don’t see mentioned is to bore out the existing hole enough to remove the out-of-round, and make yourself an oversize shaft. A steel shaft in a cast iron hole is a good bearing provided it is kept lubricated –- think motorcycle –- piston –- gudeon pin :>) Regards, Carvel ------- Re: Worn carriage apron hole for handwheel shaft, Atlas 10F lathe. Posted by: "William R Meyers" wmrmeyersx~xxsbcglobal.net oldstudentmsgt Date: Wed Dec 16, 2015 12:01 am ((PST)) Carvel, I think that would be a lot more work, particularly if his lathe is down for maintenance. Sleeving the hole back to the original size would be much easier, not to mention faster, and should be the superior repair, as it doesn't require re-engineering the whole thing. Might be an interesting challenge, and under some circumstances the best way, but not here, I think. Bill in OKC William R. Meyers, MSgt, USAF(Ret.) ------- Re: Worn carriage apron hole for handwheel shaft, Atlas 10F lathe. Posted by: "Carvel Webb" carvelwx~xxabsamail.co.za cwlathes Date: Wed Dec 16, 2015 2:12 am ((PST)) Bill, Point taken, I was considering it from the perspective that the shaft would probably also be worn (unevenly) and would be up for replacement –- which if you were going to make it yourself anyway, then the ‘oversize’ route might be an option. I accept that it means you may need access to another machine to make the parts with. My wife never did really buy the argument that I needed a second lathe to fix up the first one with, and concluded that I was irredeemably lost by the time I got to number 4 :>) Take care, Carvel ------- Re: Worn carriage apron hole for handwheel shaft, Atlas 10F lathe. Posted by: "James Irwin" jirwin1x~xxaustin.rr.com jimirwin2001 Date: Wed Dec 16, 2015 9:44 am ((PST)) All are possible solutions, but you didnąt mention one critical factor, putting the hole where it needs to be. By its nature a wallowed out hole is no longer centered where itąs supposed to be. JB Weld is easy, but the least strength of all mentioned solutions. Iąd tend toward reaming and bushing using bearing bronze. Jim Irwin ------- Re: Worn carriage apron hole for handwheel shaft, Atlas 10F lathe. Posted by: paulguenterx~xxatt.net paulguenterx~xxatt.net Date: Fri Dec 18, 2015 10:43 am ((PST)) Come on Jim, JB weld is not the answer. It's a make shift fix. Besides, JB won't stay on a oil-soaked metal. As you know it's cast iron and cast iron is porous and soaks up oil; also it's impossible to get that oil totally out of the metal. A worn hole is easy to get centered on a rebuild. Besides there are plenty of members here to give measurements. A bushing is the way to go. I also have a apron for sale that is in good shape. GP ------- Re: Worn carriage apron hole for handwheel shaft, Atlas 10F lathe. Posted by: "k.dandobbs" k.dandobbsx~xxatt.net k.dandobbsx~xxatt.net Date: Fri Dec 18, 2015 10:54 am ((PST)) Bushing is a solid recommendation. Sacrificial to mating material and holds lube very well. ------- Re: Worn carriage apron hole for handwheel shaft, Atlas 10F lathe. Posted by: "James Irwin" jirwin1x~xxaustin.rr.com jimirwin2001 Date: Fri Dec 18, 2015 11:28 am ((PST)) GP is right...JB Weld would not be a reasonable [solution]. I was too kind to that approach. Jim I ------- Re: Worn carriage apron hole for handwheel shaft, Atlas 10F lathe. Posted by: jmartin957x~xxaol.com jmartin957 Date: Fri Dec 18, 2015 11:41 am ((PST)) While there are many people who think JB Weld is great stuff -- after all, since it has "Weld" in its name it must be equivalent to real welding -- I'm not crazy about it. It does have its uses, though. I have a horizontal mill in which the countershaft had worn right through the bronze bearing on one end when I got it. Probably because the oil fitting on that end was pretty hard to get at, and thus was rarely lubed. The shaft had worn through the bearing and into the cast iron. I pressed in a new bearing, with an undersized ID, and backed up the worn area in the cast iron with JB Weld. The worn area of the shaft was turned smaller, and the bearing reamed to fit. So the JB Weld was not used to provide a running surface, and was used only to back up a small portion of the new bearing. Compressive forces only. That, I'm comfortable with. JM ------- Re: Worn carriage apron hole for handwheel shaft, Atlas 10F lathe. Posted by: "James Irwin" jirwin1x~xxaustin.rr.com jimirwin2001 Date: Fri Dec 18, 2015 12:02 pm ((PST)) Yes...thatąs a proper use of JB Weld. Jim I ------- Re: Worn carriage apron hole for handwheel shaft, Atlas 10F lathe. Posted by: dennispatakix~xxyahoo.com dennispataki Date: Fri Dec 18, 2015 1:51 pm ((PST)) One trick I've done many times to repair worn holes in iron or bronze castings is to sleeve the hole with K&S precision brass tube. Typical wall thickness is around .010". This tubing is sold at most hardware stores and is precision dimensioned to standard imperial (inch) dimensions for the ID and OD. I choose the ID I need, ream out the worn hole to the tube OD, press in the tube sleeve with Loctite if needed, and Wallah!, hole is repaired. Of course, if the hole is worn really egg shaped, some build-up with epoxy or other will be needed before installing the repair sleeve. ------- Re: Worn carriage apron hole for handwheel shaft, Atlas 10F lathe. Posted by: "Gregg Eshelman" g_alan_ex~xxYAHOO.COM g_alan_e Date: Fri Dec 18, 2015 4:08 pm ((PST)) I used the slow setting version to repair a pinhole in an AC condenser. I mixed it up and let it sit for a while before applying it to the hole. Then I hooked up a vacuum pump and pulled a few inches of vacuum in the system. Let it set overnight and I was able to complete the vacuum and charge with refrigerant. The repair worked for years, still fine when I sold the car. ------- Re: Worn carriage apron hole for handwheel shaft, Atlas 10F lathe. Posted by: "William R Meyers" wmrmeyersx~xxsbcglobal.net oldstudentmsgt Date: Wed Dec 16, 2015 9:59 am ((PST)) Which would be a really good argument for replacing the worn part, and while you're at it getting the necessary measurements from the new(er) part before installing it. Bill in OKC ------- Re: Worn carriage apron hole for handwheel shaft, Atlas 10F lathe. Posted by: "Jerrold Tiers" jerdalx~xxsbcglobal.net jtiers Date: Wed Dec 16, 2015 1:33 pm ((PST)) If the hole is NOT where it needs to be, and you DO know where it should be, the "reaming" is one of the very worst ideas, followed closely by drilling. Both of those will follow the (by definition) wrongly placed egged-out hole. Or the "average location" in the case of a hole that is no longer round. Drilling also has the practical aspect that the drill has two flutes, which tend to catch on an egged-out "oval" hole. No matter, both have location problems. The correct answer is boring. That will put the newly enlarged hole where it needs to be with the least interference from the existing bad hole walls. You should be able to identify a decent location from the existing gears, which need to mesh acceptably. Better a little too far apart than too closely crammed together. Jerry ------- Re: Worn carriage apron hole for handwheel shaft, Atlas 10F lathe. Posted by: "Carvel Webb" carvelwx~xxabsamail.co.za cwlathes Date: Thu Dec 17, 2015 12:29 am ((PST)) Jerry, Well put. A couple of years back I was faced with a similar problem with the idler gear shaft of the Norton box drop arm of a large vintage Scottish lathe. Eventually I worked out what the nominal hole centres should be from 1st principles based on the diametral pitch of the gears and number of teeth, and bored and bushed it accordingly. Worked out perfectly, and a huge improvement on a previous repair attempt which I suspect had gone wrong for all the reasons you mention. Regards, Carvel ------- Re: Worn carriage apron hole for handwheel shaft, Atlas 10F lathe. Posted by: "john baird" alexandra.leavingx~xxyahoo.co.uk alexandra.leaving Date: Thu Dec 17, 2015 3:19 am ((PST)) Hi, There are "thin wall" bushes, with a PTFE lining. Regards jb ------- Re: Worn carriage apron hole for handwheel shaft, Atlas 10F lathe. Posted by: aeroronx~xxbellsouth.net Date: Sun Jan 17, 2016 2:57 pm ((PST)) I'm back :) I repaired my apron, except there were a number of other issues no one seemed to have brought up in the numerous replies. First, Atlas had apparently originally assembled my apron hand wheel gear and its meshed caged gear with excessive backlash, and there was also excessive backlash between the caged gear and the bed gear rack. Therefore, apron’s shaft hole’s location and the pinned gear cage location had to be re-assessed prior to deciding whether to "pull" the apron hole to a prescribed pitch diameter distance. I did not pull the hole much, the greatest adjustment required that I unpin and move the 12T/24T gear cage to correctly mesh the gear rack as well as the hand wheel 12T gear, and in addition I had to shave a very small amount of the gear cage's lead screw pass-through hole to clear the screw! A set of combined photos is attached. Note the difference in the gear cage's original location on the left and its final location on the right (as seen through my fully transparent lathe bed ;). Dennis Pataki's suggestion to use a K&S tube bushing is a good one for this low speed low load application, even though alloys of brass are generally softer than my tin-phos-bronze sheet, wear faster, and don't slide on steel as well. Because my hand wheel shaft hole was worn round, I originally hoped it would still be on center. The gear side was not worn much at all, but the hand wheel side was well off center even though round. As a result, I had to go more than the .008 phos bronze wall I had hoped, and went with a .014 wall. No reason to go to a commercial .125 wall bushing at this time. Ron C 1 of 1 Photo(s) https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/atlas_craftsman/attachments/324377123 apron hole problem.jpg ------- [was]Re: Worn carriage apron hole for handwheel shaft, Atlas 10F lathe. Rolled bronze bushing Posted by: "Ray Waldbaum" raywaldbaumx~xxgmail.com ray.waldbaum Date: Mon Jan 18, 2016 6:34 am ((PST)) >Therefore, I'll be making a rolled bronze bushing myself out of 0.008" >phosphor bronze sheet metal. Ron, this seems like really doing things the hard way. My local hardware store has such a good selection of bronze bushings that I didn't have to go anywhere else to get bushings for the 12" Craftsman Commercial lathe I restored for my son. If you want a thin wall bushing one can easily be made by modifying a stock bushing, increasing its ID or reducing its OD or both. Ray W ------- Re: Rolled bronze bushing (regarding lathe's apron hole repair) Posted by: aeroronx~xxbellsouth.net aeroronx~xxbellsouth.net Date: Mon Jan 18, 2016 8:19 am ((PST)) To et.al. This is in regards to my repair of the hand wheel shaft hole on the 10F lathe carriage apron (and in my final recent pictorial post on 1/17 regarding the other confluence of issues in the repair)... I'm always trying to learn, but with respect to my repair I was just sharing what I did, not looking for disparagements. It's not my first time around the block...My repair solution is not hard at all, and it's not an 'outside the box' procedure. (My homemade bushing is similar in function and performance to commercial industrial thin-wall split bushings that can usually only be found in metric.) And...1. I'm not a complete dummy, coincidentally I already happened to have had a choice of using a 1/2IDx5/8ODx1.5lg Oilite bushing I found in my own stock here at home left over from other projects, but I also already had phos bronze sheet on hand (and several other shim stock materials). 2. apparently unlike some, I don't have a second lathe here at home to turn a bushing OD or length while my lathe is down. 3. it took about the same amount of time to make my thin wall bushing as to turn down and shorten one if I had another lathe, and far less time if I had to include a drive to Ace and buy one to modify. 4. To wit: even if I had another lathe to use, IMO it's just plain darn foolish to remove more material than necessary to put in a larger thicker walled bushing (or remove more material than necessary in any other repair ...I'm sure you know some horror stories), especially when a robust cost effective solution is so easy. (BTW, automotive thin walled bushings for certain starters and in other applications are 'close, but no cigar' for this case.) And, as a comment to another post: 5. for a proper job the apron hole is not just re-drilled, it must be either precision bored (I don't have a milling machine) or final reamed (I do have adjustable reamers and a drill press) to a respectable interference fit. Thank you for your comments, anyway. I will need advice on something soon, but not this. ;) Ron C ------- Re: Rolled bronze bushing Posted by: "James Irwin" jirwin1x~xxaustin.rr.com jimirwin2001 Date: Mon Jan 18, 2016 9:59 am ((PST)) A problem I have with these discussions is that so many folks refer to Oilite bronze (sintered porous powdered bronze impregnated with oil...a bearing material) interchangeably with bronze, as in cast or wrought bronze alloy metal. The łbronze˛ bushings found in hardware stores for bearing use are the powdered metal type, with or w/o oil impregnation. Very different material. ------- Re: Worn carriage apron hole for handwheel shaft, Atlas 10F lathe. Posted by: jwreyx~xxusa.net mondosmetals Date: Mon Jan 18, 2016 6:49 am ((PST)) I simply drilled the handwheel shaft hole to 5/8 on my drill press, then stuffed in a standard Oilite bronze bushing. raymond ------- Re: Rolled bronze bushing Posted by: "JOHN PERRY" perry7122x~xxbellsouth.net Date: Mon Jan 18, 2016 7:30 pm ((PST)) Check with an engine rebuilding supply Co. They make thin walled sleeves to resize valve guides in engines. You may find something there that will work. I have seen them but cannot remember the company. ------- Re: Rolled bronze bushing Posted by: "Charles" xlch58x~xxswbell.net Date: Mon Jan 18, 2016 11:50 pm ((PST)) I have lots of those, and they are thin wall, but 1/2 inch is pretty big for a valve stem, good luck finding one in that size. Charles ------- [was] Re: Worn carriage apron hole for handwheel shaft, Atlas 10F lathe. Re: Thin wall bushing [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: aeroronx~xxbellsouth.net aeroronx~xxbellsouth.net Date: Tue Jan 19, 2016 2:15 pm ((PST)) In atlas_craftsmanx~xxyahoogroups.com, wrote: > A thin walled bushing can be an issue to install with a tight fit. > Did you make a tight fitting shouldered mandrel for installation? > Bill in Boulder Bill, Not necessary to make a mandrel. I assumed it would be a final .502" ID. While a shoulder bolt would be ideal (standard 0.498 dia polished body and no fillet under head), I was satisfied using a long smooth shanked 1/2" bolt as is (a hex head...a socket head would also suffice). Of course, some vendor bolts have varying exact diameter tolerances, so I double checked its body OD first. As for the bolt's fillet under the head, as expected there was a resulting very tiny flare that was proud on the installed bushing which I knocked off with a file stroke. Using a softer brass alloy such as in a K&S tube should also be doable. My interference fit was about two thou. It was not pressed in but was shocked in using a hammer on the bolt head. The fit shrunk its ID just enough that I had to polish it a slightly to slide the .500" hand wheel shaft into it smoothly. I used sn-pb solder, by the way and one can barely see the line on the seam. Ron C ------- Half nut woes [atlas618lathe] Posted by: "Carlos Akin" carlosakinx~xxyahoo.com carlosakin Date: Fri Jan 29, 2016 7:41 am ((PST)) Hi Group, What does everyone do when trying to dial in the half nuts? Mine are slipping in the area of the lead screw that is most worn - as usual, but the threads on the half nuts themselves are also half gone. I received a nice used lead screw that has more pointy threads, but has a consistent diameter through its entire length, it does seem to engage better. When watching the half nuts engage, I notice the lead screw moves up a bit as they are closed. Is there some way of adjusting the lead screw so that it doesn't move, and therefore has more consistent engagement? Now I also just received a set of 1/2" wide half nuts that may engage better, but I want to eliminate the stress on them by dialing this in. I am only fiddling with this because I'd like to eventually be able to make my own half nuts if they wear out again. Worst case, I`ll be ordering a new lead screw and half nuts. Thanks! ------- Re: Half nut woes Posted by: "Hank Riley" n1ltvx~xxyahoo.com n1ltv Date: Fri Jan 29, 2016 2:05 pm ((PST)) [posted by moderator for Robert Downs] Carlos, There is no adjustment on the height of the half nuts. What you do is adjust the height of the lead screw. To do this, move the tailstock all the way to the right. Crank the carriage toward the tailstock as far as you can without the carriage touching either the tailstock of the right lead screw bearing. Loosen the two screws attaching the bearing to the bed. Close the half nuts completely (you might need to jocky the carriage back to the left a little to do this –- don’t force the closure). Lift up on the bearing and note how far it moves (if any). Lower it half the movement distance and tighten its mounting screws. Move the carriage to the headstock end of the bed. Open the change gear cover and lower the change gear bracket. Repeat the previous steps with the left bearing. Move the carriage to the center of the bed and close the half nuts. The lead screw shouldn’t move. If it does, it may be bent. If it moves down, you may have considerable bed wear in the middle (not common). If it moves up, the bed may be arched up (again not common). Robert D. ------- Re: Half nut woes Posted by: n1ltvx~xxyahoo.com n1ltv Date: Fri Jan 29, 2016 8:20 pm ((PST)) [posted for Carlos, carlosakinx~xxyahoo.com] Robert, Thank you for this detailed info. I will do this. ------- Re: Half nut woes Posted by: "Carlos Akin" carlosakinx~xxyahoo.com carlosakin Date: Fri Jan 29, 2016 8:22 pm ((PST)) Well, That was an excellent fix. Is this some sort of common knowledge I should get from a manual somewhere, or just your personal method for getting that setup dialed in? It's almost like a new lathe now! Now I can get back to making a delrin tumbler gear to get the noise down. Thanks! ------- Re: Half nut woes Posted by: wa5cabx~xxcs.com wa5cab Date: Sat Jan 30, 2016 3:28 pm ((PST)) Glad to hear that it helped. Unfortunately, Atlas never seems to have published a real maintenance manual for any of its machines. The Manual of Lathe Operations (MOLO, and a book that every Atlas owner should probably have a copy of) included a lubrication chart, in the early editions the instructions for adjusting babbit bearings (for early 10" and 12") and in later editions the instructions for disassembling and assembling the late 12" headstock. Otherwise, the various MOLO versions are all about operations. Later Atlas (by then changed to Clausing) published Technical Bulletins on the various headstocks. Otherwise just parts lists and some setup bulletins. Someone on one of the other Groups wrote briefly how to adjust the right bearing. I just added details so that someone who was relatively new to the machine could more easily follow. And I added the left bearing which only applies to the three 6" models. ------- ------------------------------------------------------------------ This is just one of some 80 files about machining and metalworking and useful workshop subjects that can be read at: http://www.janellestudio.com/metal/index.html ------------------------------------------------------------------