Here find many users' tips about setting up or repairing Atlas metal lathes. The repair and fitting of Atlas metal lathes is the primary subject of this file, but many practices discussed here might be useful for other brands also. The file here called "Atlas Parts General" has contact information for Clausing (Atlas bought Clausing and adopted their more prestigious name). Lots of parts, original or newly made, at better prices than anywhere else. Clausing personnel know a great deal about their old Atlas products and have the majority of spare parts still in stock. Some are original and some are more recently manufactured. And if not in stock (which is more likely in the case of some accessory products like collet closers), they can probably provide a copy of the specifications so you could make one. And in most cases, parts from Clausing are much cheaper than available elsewhere. It makes sense to support this company that so cares for its clients and ancient products -- it is a very rare company indeed. Also, there are discussions in the text file "Atlas Parts General" as to how some parts may be repaired or even made from scratch. There are some repair discussions about the nuts involved for threading, half-nuts or split-nuts (hyphen optional), in the text file on this site called "Thread Dial and Half Nuts". I hope that Atlas owners will learn to read as well as think outside the box. The perfect solution to your Atlas lathe's problem might be completely solved in another group devoted to Taig or Sherline or Myford or Logan or South Bend or 7 X 10...12...whatever Minilathes or ......., and v.v. For example, a very useful message on the Subject: Lathe Alignment Technique appeared in the mlathemodsx~xxyahoogroups.com on 31 Jan 2004. Great advice as to how to make your headstock and tailstock align. That message appears in this file now because it is applicable to any lathe brand. There are a (very) few hints here for problems with Sears' 109 (not Atlas). Those users will do well to join a 109 related group to seek and share ideas. If you got to this file directly from my HOME PAGE, return there by using your browser's back button. BUT if you came to this file as the result of a web search engine, see more than 70 additional files on my home page Machining and Metalworking at Home http://www.janellestudio.com/metal/ SAFETY WARNING BEWARE: DO NOT ASSUME that any subject matter or procedure or process is safe or correct or appropriate just because it was mentioned in a news/ user group or was included in these files or on this site or on any other web site or was published in a magazine or book or video. Working with metals and machinery and chemicals and electrical equipment is inherently dangerous. Wear safety devices and clothing as appropriate. Remove watches, rings, and jewellery -- and secure or remove loose clothing -- before operating any machine. Read, understand and follow the latest operating procedures and safety instructions provided by the manufacturer of your machine or tool or product. If you do not have those most recent official instructions, acquire a copy through the manufacturer before operating or using their product. Where the company no longer exists, use the appropriate news or user group to locate an official copy. Be careful -- original instructions may not meet current safety standards. Updated safety information and operating instructions may also be available through a local club, a local professional in the trade, a local business, or an appropriate government agency. In every case, use your common sense before beginning or taking the next step; and do not proceed if you have any questions or doubts about any procedure, or the safety of any procedure. Follow all laws and codes, and employ certified or licenced professionals as required by those laws or codes. Hazardous tasks beyond your competence or expertise should also be contracted to professionals. Let's be really careful out there. (c) Copyright 2003 - 2012 Machining and Metalworking at Home The form of the collected work in this text file (including editing, additions, and notes) is copyrighted and this file is not to be reproduced by any means, including electronic, without written permission except for strictly personal use. ======================================================================== From: Jon Elson Date: Tue Jun 20, 2000 4:58pm Subject: Re: bed regrind "M K Campbell Jr." wrote: > I have a Craftsman 12x36 that the bed was in really bad > shape. The ways had worn badly and had many dings through > the whole length of the bed like they used it for an anvil > for years. If I adjusted the gibs for snug fit close to the > head stock, I could get only about 12" travel before > binding. I didn't think the lathe was worth regrinding (and > couldn't afford it either). I found a grinding shop, > Southwest Grinding in Ft Worth, TX, that does not have a > surface grinder but the guy told me he had done several flat > bed lathes on his Blanchard grinder. He put the lathe bed on > the grinder mag chuck upside down and topped the mounting > surfaces so they were parallel with the bed surface. Then > flipped it over and took a few thousandths off the top, just > enough to remove the groove worn by the carriage. It made a > great improvement. I had to mill a little off the front gib > to get it to take up the slack. > Cost of the grinding, $32.00. If I could figure a way to grind the > bottom of the rear way, it would be even better. I know this isn't > the best solution but it's still a lot better than it was. Wow, that's cheap! What I was thinking, about grinding the underside of the ways, was to build a little guide block that would ride on the top part of the bed. It would wrap around the bed way, and hold a grinder (Dremel, air die grinder, etc.) with an adjustable mount, so it could be brought up in tiny increments until it removes the low spot. This could be moved by hand to grind the bottom parallel to the top. Jon ------- From: gcontreras Date: Tue Jun 20, 2000 6:53pm Subject: Re: bed regrind Some time ago, I too was faced with this "resurfacing" problem on my just bought Atlas 3990. I did the same thing; had the bed reground by an automotive repair shop (does big diesel engine repairs). The guy first setup several high T rests and surfaced the top of these. This would assure that the lathe bed would sit on a true surface. The bed was held on these T rests from the underside of the lathe bed (way) proper as it had little or not wear at all as the feet had been removed. The result was just about right. I then laped the bed with a home made 40" straight edge (2" x 5"). What you want is to have all the surfaces parallel and square to each other. When I first placed the carriage on the bed I could barely remove it as it seemed to have stuck it self to the bed surface! The bed was that flat. I have just completed the paint work and have taken my first cut after leveling. No problem at all! A straight cut, no strange markings (rings) and no binding across the entire bed. Well worth it Jim as my lathe a 0.5mm groove on the front shear running towards the headstock and I feel I'm better off... Cost? about $60.00. ------- From: Jon Elson Date: Tue Jun 20, 2000 7:56pm Subject: Re: Re: bed regrind,bottom Pete & Sheri wrote: > I wonder how much wear actually occurs on the "bottom" surfaces. I had a > 10-54 years ago that had lots of wear on the top of the rails, but that > wear was from the carriage running back and forth. The wear on the rear > side would have been from the bed resisting the tool, I assume. But > I wonder if the forces on the underside of the bed would create enough > wear to worry about. Has anybody had a bed reground who knows what had > to be taken off of the "bottom" in order to true it up? Unless the gibs on the bottom were set VERY tight, or there was a lot of swarf getting under there (which is a possibility), there should be VERY little wear. But, when the top of the bed is reground, it is unlikely that the bottom edge is still totally parallel to the top. That's what matters. So, if the grinding ended up taking a little more off one end than the other, the vertical thickness of the ways will now have a 'taper' from one end to the other. That would make setting the bottom gib shims rather tricky, and leave it loose at one end. Strong tool infeed pressure will lift the back of the carriage if the bottom gibs are not fairly snug. This is a problem when parting-off, for instance, also with threading. Jon ------ From: Walter E Emery Date: Wed Jun 21, 2000 7:32pm Subject: Re: bed regrind Blanchard grinding is done with a large diameter ring stone with the part to be ground on a rotating magnetic table, usually with pretty coarse grit stones and flooding coolant. I had one in my shop for many years, but would never use it for lathe beds. Its main purpose is rapid removal of stock. While a Blanchard is usually sufficient for automotive cylinder heads which will sit stationary on a gasket, I certainly wouldn't want my lathe bed ground that way, as it will leave swirl marks across the ways which will not be conducive to even wear or smooth operation. A big surface grinder is required with a skilled operator to do the job properly. Even a few thousandths of taper can really screw up the operation of your lathe, and as Earl said, the guy must know what wheels to use. Walt Emery -------- From: Guy Fuller Date: Mon Jun 26, 2000 8:23pm Subject: Re: re: bed regrind >>Mickey, For a novice would you please expound a little on hand scraping. > Ouch! That's not an easy subject. But, historically, the accuracy of > machine tools was assured not by grinding the bed on a huge surface > grinder, but by a guy with a small hand tool and a big straightedge. > > The general way this is done is you apply some blue painter's pigment > (Prussian Blue) to either the object or the straightedge (surface plate, > precision square, etc.) and then rub the two together. By examining > the pattern left on the part, you can see how accurately it fits against > the master. When it gets quite close, you can start tweaking how many > microscopic high spots per square inch there are. These high spots > are called bearing points. Supposedly, you are supposed to go for > about 25 bearing points per square inch. > > How this is done is that the pattern of the bluing tells you where the > high spots are, and you use the scraping tool to scrape off tiny > slivers of iron until the high spots are reduced. Then, you check > against the straight edge again. > > There is a LOT of technique to this. I have done some small experiments > with it, and found it does work, and can be done without vast > amounts of skill. I suspect the skill comes in when planning how > to perform spotting and scraping on larger pieces, where you can > quickly get in a mess while working on one area, such that another > area is totally off. I have a well worn Bridgeport that really needs > a good scraping job done on it. Jon ------- Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 11:37:07 EDT From: catboat15x~xxaol.com Subject: Re: New to the list In a message dated 9/19/00, fbcwinx~xx3g.quik.com writes: << Here's a quick question: The cross slide seems to have quite a bit of play in it. Any suggestions on how to shore it up for facing turns? >> Look along the right side of the cross slide. There should be some small headless screws with thin lock nuts there. These adjust the gib (or jib) which is a piece that bears against the side of dovetail where the cross slide moves. Using a thin wrench loosen the lock nuts a bit, use a screwdriver to tighten the screws till you feel the cross slide is locked then loosen just enough to let it move. Kind of a tedious project to get all the adjustment screws set, then locked so the cross slide moves easily with no shake. You, (or at least I do) have to have wrench in one hand, screwdriver in other But, a normal part of using a lathe. John Meacham ------- Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 08:55:48 -0700 From: "Robert Streimikes" Subject: Re: New to the list From: "Harry Boyd" > My trouble is not that the gib screws are loose. I can tighten them down > fully, and the whole cross slide will still vibrate. Any ideas? If you have tightened both sets of gibs (cross slide and compound) and still have the problem then perhaps the saddle is what is vibrating? If so the relevant adjustments are underneath the saddle and there have been a bunch of posts in the past on how to deal with it (esp on what to do after you break the cheezy cast iron gibs (or what ever they are called) down there.) Regards Bob ------- Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 12:03:42 -0400 From: Jude Miller Subject: Re: New to the list >My trouble is not that the gib screws are loose. I can tighten them down >fully, and the whole cross slide will still vibrate. Any ideas? Harry Do you mean that the carriage vibrates? The carriage is the piece that slides on the bed of the lathe. The cross slide slides in and out on the carriage. The carriage has a gib on the back, I believe. There are also adjusting shims underneath the carriage to take up slop in the vertical direction. Older lathe beds often have sufficient wear that the carriage must be somewhat loose at a normal working distance from the headstock in order to traverse the rest of the bed at all. This can be fixed by grinding or scraping, but this is not a minor procedure. Best, Jude Miller ------- Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 15:44:08 EDT From: catboat15x~xxaol.com Subject: Re: New to the list In a message dated 9/20/00, fbcwinx~xx3g.quik.com writes: << My trouble is not that the gib screws are loose. I can tighten them down fully, and the whole cross slide will still vibrate. Any ideas? >> Hi Harry: Are you sure there is a gib in there? Also make sure you loosen the lock nuts enough since I have had the locknuts "lock up" before I got full travel on the adjustment screws. Otherwise, if everything is tight and snug, maybe you are taking too large a bite out of your work. One thing to look for is the difference between plain turning and facing. When you are working on a round piece to reduce diameter there is some clearance for the front of the tool due to the geometry of the set up. (Visualize a flat ended tool against a clyinder and there is front clearance just because the work piece is round.) When facing it is much easier for the "heel" of the tool to drag on the work. If all else fails try to regrind your tool bit to give more clearance to the front end. John Meacham ------- Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 15:32:58 -0500 From: Jon Elson Subject: Re: loose cross slide? > In a message dated 9/20/00, fbcwinx~xx3g.quik.com writes: > << My trouble is not that the gib screws are loose. I can tighten them > down fully, and the whole cross slide will still vibrate. Any ideas? >> Well, there has to be something loose! There are a number of possibilities. There is a gib on the back of the carriage, and two gibs on the UNDERSIDE of the carriage. These are two steel (or cast iron?) plates, with laminated aluminum shims underneath. On several Atlas lathes that had been 'buggered', the laminated shims were turned into accordion pleats, making the gib very loose. This allows the carriage to lift up off the bed with heavy infeed force. You tighten these gibs up by peeling a laminated strip, one at a time. There is also a gib on the carriage, and one on the compound slide. The compound slide tends to get loose, as it is a lightly constructed piece. Finally, there is a swivel that the lower part of the compound slide rests on. There can be problems that cause the swivel to not bear weight properly, so that it wobbles. On a light lathe like the Atlas, you should be able to apply forces with your hand to make the loose junction shift. Without the spindle running, you can get your head right in there to see what is moving. Once you determine exactly what part is shifting, you will know where to look for the problem. Finally, leadscrew backlash might be the problem. If so, then you definitely have some kind of problem with the cutting tool shape or the way you are holding it, as it is developing too much side force on the facing cuts. One last (awful) possibility is that the cross slide casting has cracked, and all it needs is a little more deflection, and it will split into two big pieces! I sure hope this is not what is happening. Jon ------- Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 22:55:59 -0500 From: "M K Campbell Jr." Subject: Re: Leadscrews I talked to Nolan Supply last year about Acme rod 3/4 x 8tpi. They don't list it in their catalog, only 6 and 10 tpi, but they custom make just about anything you want. The guy told me they could make a 6 ft. stick for me for around 50.00 if I remember right. I ended up finding a replacement for my 12x36 so I didn't ever order it. Nolan is at 800-736-2204 or www.nolansupply.com Skip Campbell Ft. Worth, Texas mkctools.com Craftsman 101.28990 12x36 ------- Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2000 21:23:51 -0500 From: "J Tiers" Subject: Re: Green Model 109.2127 The green color probably indicates a re-paint job, that's all, I think they were blue to start with in newer models. No parts are available, almost, except for used, or whatever M Herman has. He adverts in Home Shop Machinist magazine in the classifieds. A guy in Arizona also is supposed to have parts, but he seems to run hot and cold as the mood takes him. Anyhow, I have heard of doing the JB weld trick, but using a material that was described as "titanium putty". Seems like JB with a better binder and different filler metal. Done by professional rebuilders, on halfnuts yet. You can try JB, or get the other stuff from J&L Industrial etc, etc. ($$$) maybe some clean cast iron filings mixed in would stiffen JB up a bit, I tried it on another item and it seemed to work. Grease up the leadscrew and clean the halfnut lever like crazy before you do it. You might even try boiling it in water for a while, as the cast iron soaks up oil deep in the pores and that is poison to adhesives. Chatter is the big issue with the 109 because it is so light built. A follower rest is perfect. There are plans for one in the AAdocs 2 file in the metalworking dropbox, which I forget right now how to get to. Clamps onto the crosslide ways to hold it. Oil the daylights out of the rest fingers and it won't be too bad. And the smoother the fingers are the less they mark the surface. $100 is the right type of price, its what I paid, and I got a faceplate but no chuck. Hey, some people have paid up to $500 for the same thing. Jerry ------- Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 10:30:22 EDT From: ccnn51x~xxaol.com Subject: Re: Green Model 109.2127 In a message dated 9/25/00, jtiersx~xxworldinter.net writes: < Anyhow, I have heard of doing the JB weld trick, but using a material that was described as "titanium putty". Seems like JB with a better binder and different filler metal. Done by professional rebuilders, on halfnuts yet. You can try JB, or get the other stuff from J&L Industrial etc, etc. ($$$) maybe some clean cast iron filings mixed in would stiffen JB up a bit, I tried it on another item and it seemed to work. Grease up the leadscrew and clean the halfnut lever like crazy before you do it. You might even try boiling it in water for a while, as the cast iron soaks up oil deep in the pores and that is poison to adhesives.>> Iron filings mixed with JB Weld? Might work. Need to be clean alright; not from around a grinding wheel. Maybe from use of a real fine file. I wouldn't use grease on the leadscrew; wipe really good and then wipe really well with wax paper. Grease can contaminate the JB. Yes, boil the halfnut with a little acid cleaner. But are you sure this is necessary? If you use a spring weight scale on the close lever for the halfnuts and apply an extra 2 pounds after it is closed, will it be tight on the leadscrew? If so the problem may be the spring and ball bearing. Often they are worn and the spring is not strong enough. To replace, open the halfnuts, and take off the handwheel on the right end of the leadscrew. File off the burr from the setscrew and push the leadscrew to the left. Loosen the four front screws for the front gibbs and remove the back gibb from the carriage. Lift off the carriage. When you flip the lever for the halfnuts the other way the ballbearing and spring will fire out so have it pointed down in a big plastic pail. Get a new ballbearing and spring (stiffer than before) that just enter the hole (got mine from ACE Hardware). Make sure the spring is ground flat at the ends and remove any sharp edges. Clark Nicholas ------- Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2000 02:39:08 -0000 From: "Steven Christmann" Subject: Re: Carriage Clearance Hi Dale: Actually, I didn't pay a dime for my regrind (I called in a favor from a supplier at work). If I were to buy this service, however, it shouldn't be more than $25 for a top grind, and another $10-$15 to 'dust' the positive edge for squareness. Careful though - the ways on these lathes are thin to start with - you wouldn't want to remove much more than .005"-.010" If you need, I can give you numbers for several good grind houses in the Detroit area. I noticed that mine (which had taken to sagging in the middle from carriage weight and an improper stand) runs very true now - about .0003" max flat and coplanar across the entire bed length. It might also help if you regrind the bottom mating surface of the headstock parallel to the bearing bores, and the bottom surface of the tailstock - this way you won't experience any runout later on. I also set my headstock-tailstock on a surface plate and set the heights together. If you want, I can e-mail you the drawings for a jig that I made up to hold the headstock upside down for grinding. I think Atlas did a pretty sloppy fitting job on these lathes originally. Hope that helps, Steve ------- Date: Sat, 18 Nov 2000 08:36:14 -0600 (CST) From: dswrx~xxwebtv.net Subject: Leveling a lathe... The 'Lathe Bulletin 101.07-3" discusses the reasons and methods of leveling a lathe bed. Leveling, according to the bulletin means; The bed ways must be parallel with themselves. Absolutely level bed is essential for accurate lathe work. The bulletin warns that a twisted bed is also harmful to the lathe. The best way to do this is make the bed ways level to the world. A drawing shows a 6" Atlas lathe, sans the carriage and tail stock. (i know this is a 6" as it only has 1 mounting bolt hole on the right hand bed foundation. (facing the lathe) On the bed are 4 machinist's levels. (of course, this is only showing the positions 1 level is positioned for this test.) The positions shown are across the bed close to the headstock, parallel to the bed ways near the center of the bed, and across the ways near the right hand end of the bed. This level is a precision machinist's spirit level, such as a L.S. Starrett No. 96. A sensitive level should move the bubble about 1/8" when a .003 shim is placed one end of the level. Shims (1" x 4"), metal or cardboard, should be placed between the bench top and foundation around the bolts on the headstock end. (a notch to accommodate the bolt is shown .) Shims are placed on either side of the bolt on the tailstock end. These shims should be added/removed to achieve level. I'm sorry that I can't post a picture of the page, but my WebTV (c) Microsoft won't let me do that! (boo-hoo, baby!) Leo ------- (Atlas E-group files) Leo, I posted a couple of pages out of the manual for you. Jus tryin' to help out.... Bill C. Files: "Clemens's Iron Stuff" ------- Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2000 10:24:44 -0600 From: Subject: Re: 6-18 [atlas_craftsman] > On 19 Nov 2000, Den & Betty Haas wrote: > > I have a 6-18 Atlas that I took out of the crate from the factory > > in 1977. Been lurking on this list & the serial nos. I have don't > > seem to jibe with what I see. Here are the specs on what I have. > > SN 3950 Mod. No. 002328 Number on the bearing that I can see on > > the chuck end of the headstock is NTN 620SLU. This lathe came with a > > square, plastic gear cover that has since been melted in a fire. It > > came with a Dayton Mod. 5K261B, 1/3 hp motor. 1725 rpm, 115v. > > Can anybody enlighten me as to what I have & when it was made? > > Thanks Den Den & Betty Haas Nov. 25, 2000 From: "Marty Escarcega" > You have what appears to be one of the last incarnations of the > lathe before it was discontinued by Clausing. Our group still > supports it, but admittedly most everyone has one of the older > machines. Use it and enjoy it, if we can answer any questions at > all, please feel free to ask. Marty, Moderator Atlas_Craftsman Group I saw your post on the model 3950. Advertised dimensions are 6 x 19 inches, with 1-10 thread headstock spindle. I have the same model. It was made between 1977 and 1980. this the next to the last model. The last model was painted blue and included an all-metric version, very rare now. NTN is still in business. You can cross-reference the bearing number if you need replacements. Get on www.thomasregister.com to track them down (free). Dayton is now owned by W.W. Grainger, a huge supply firm. You may be able to cross reference the motor if you need replacement. Grainger website can be hunted up. Atlas sold a variety of motors, mine is by Westinghouse Electric. > >First thing is contact Clausing Service Center to get in touch with Technical Support. Ph 219-533-0371, e-mail joldsx~xxclausing-industrial.com Tell them what happened and get PRINTED information on what to do (FAX or Mail). Get prices on replacement parts and accessories (free!), like the melted cover. If parts are discontinued, contact Technical Support for substitute sources or dimensioned drawings so you can make your own parts. Also, ask Technical Support to get wiring diagrams for hooking up the reversing drum switch Clausing sells for the motors. The diagram needs to be specific for your motor. The switch is a Furnas Electric Style A-14. I think Furnas is still in business, check with them if needed. Contact through thomasregister site. > Important tips, a rigid base or bench with plenty of width is advisable, with swiveling leveling feet on each leg. If the base is narrow, go with heavy gage steel or cast iron machine bases. Tighten screws on lathe bed feet in small increments while watching the precision level bubble. The lathe bed can be tension sensitive. Shims alone without checking tension is not successful. >Use way lubricant, instead of ordinary motor oil on bedways, side gib,dovetail surfaces, and clamps of carriage. It will eliminate "chatter and "stick slip" when threading or power feeding. A drop or two on the carriage gear contacting the leadscrew really smooths things up. Use the minimum, because the lube is very sticky. Mobil Oil makes "Vactra" brand in a 1 gal. and 5 gal. sizes. Other makers make similar way lube products. >If possible, get the threading gearsette accessories. One set will let you make coarse thrteads down to 5 threads per inch. An important consideration if you need to make parts for larger size lathes. Even the expensive Myford 7x19 lathe from England can't do this!! E-mail me if your need more tips on this lathe. James Sprott ------- Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2000 16:19:47 -0000 From: "William Clemens" Subject: Re: new owner "Franke, Jim" wrote: >Hi, I'm Jim. I am new to this group. >I just recently purchased a 6" atlas lathe and am very excited about >getting it up and running. I had spent approximately 2 1/2 years building >one of the Gingery home made lathes and it works well, but I have gotten a >little frustrated with it. It requires quite a bit of attention for every >operation and is not always reliable or predictable. I was very lucky >and found this atlas lathe for a modest price compared to what they were >selling for on ebay. Plus it already has thread cutting capability and I >would have to build the Gingery miller and dividing head in order to make >change gears for my home made lathe. Enough back ground I guess. >In cleaning up and inspecting this atlas lathe I did find something that I >hope someone out there can help me with. The carriage seems to move less >than smoothly when operated with the hand wheel. It appears that the rack >attached to the lathe bed may have some damage to it in a few spots. I >attempted to remove it by removing the retaining screws but there appear >to be 2 pins, 1 at either end that that also secure it. I was afraid to >pry on the rack to losen it for fear of bending it. My question then is, >are these 2 pins just alignment pins or are they screws that feed from the >inner side of bed, and what is the best way to remove the rack so I can >replace it or repair it? Thanks. Jim Jim, The older atlas machines used taper pins for alignment and for a greater shear proof attachment of the rack to the ways. An old trick was to turn the rack end for end to bring the outer portion into use close to the headstock where most of the work is done, but I don't think you can do that with the 6" machine( I'm going to check mine to see for sure). You should be able to pry it loose (evenly) with a very small heel type pry bar, or well placed heel blocks close to the rack. It is mild steel, so you may be able to do some touch up to it...You should remove the saddle to do this you know. Bill C. ------- >> I saw your post on the 6 inch Atlas lathe. I had a similar problem with my 3950 model., only in one spot near the headstock. Before prying loose the rack, try this quick fix! One or 2 drops of way lubricant on the carriage gear that engages the rack. It should slide right over the trouble spots! I used "Vactra" brand from Mobil Oil. There are similar way lubricants from other makers that will do the job. Try the Travers catalog at www.travers.com or local industial oil and lube supply firms in your area. If the problems persist, contact Clausing Service Center and ask for Technical Support. Give lathe model and serial number and get specific instructions on how to fix the problem. Design changes in my model show staked in pins, not taper pins holding the rack to the bed casting. No prying without problems on my model! To avoid expensive damage, check with Technical Support first, before prying on anything! James Sprott << ------- Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2000 21:50:15 -0500 From: A J Palik Subject: Lathe Bed Wear This is a letter I wrote about a year ago. It may be of help to others. I was having trouble turning a 1" steel shaft in my 10"x 24" Atlas lathe.I am new to lathes and wanted to check out my lathe and see if it was turning a taper or was running true.The steel was an old piece of line shaft.It isn't very hard so I chucked it up in my 4 jaw chuck and set the live centre in the tail stock.Starting at the tailstock and turning towards the headstock all was going well until I got about 4" down the shaft--the shaft is 16" long.The curls were rolling off the steel tool bit as pretty as can be and slowly but surely the tool bit started to chatter. The further I turned the shaft the worse the chat- tering got. I tried everything ,different tool bits, carbide bits, different turning speeds, heavy cuts, fine cuts. Nothing helped. Now mind you that this Atlas is an old one and well used.I tightened the saddle gibs near the headstock but found that the bed was worn and had to lossen the gibs so the saddle would run the full lenght of the bed.I resnugged the gibs near the tail stock.The chattering didn't get any better.I have read that a lathe bed must be trued up by scraping,something very few master so that was out.Me being a cheap old fart took matters into my own hands and got out my files.I selected a very fine cut file and my trusty old file card.I tightened the saddle gibs near the headstock and slowly slid the file down the sides of the ways, taking light cuts on both sides of the ways(front and back). After every stroke of the file I cleaned the teeth of the file with the file card. Every few minutes I checked my progress by wipping the ways off,lubing them with oil and running the saddle down the bed.Slowly but surely the saddle would travel futher and futher down the lenght of the bed.After about an hour and a half I got the ways true and now it was time to test out my work. I now have a lathe that will cut a 16" shaft to within .001" from tailstock to headstock and no chatter.Maybe I was lucky with this method but thought I would share my ways trueing method in case it could help others. ------- Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2000 22:01:24 EST From: loon432x~xxaol.com Subject: Newbe (sort of) This is my first posting to the group, but I've been lurking for about a year now. I have an Atlas model 618, serial # 025953. It was in pretty bad shape when I aquired it. The bed was slightly warped and someone had beat on the ways with a large file. There were no chucks. The quill lock for the tailstock was missing. The compound and crossfeed handles were broken. Plus the carriage feed gear didn't mesh correctly with the rack, so it tended to top the teeth off of even a new pinion. It did have a face plate, change gears, wrench, and a few spare parts including a new crossfeed screw and nut and set of half nuts. And the price was right--it was given to me after asking the right questions. You wouldn't recognize it now. I have rebuilt and repainted it. I had to machine the ways to correct the warped area and remove the file dents (about .015 off the top and .005 off the sides). All 4 surfaces of both ways were machined in one setup. The carriage was belled about .003 so that was machined out and it was also corrected for the new thickness of the ways. The compound gib did not seat correctly so the dovetail was machined also. The mounting holes for the carriage gearing were bored off center and bushed to move the gearing into correct mesh with the rack (on a Sherline 2000 mill believe it or not). I made a new tailstock quill lock with radiused contact surfaces instead of chamfered. New handles were made from stainless steel. Every mating surface (including gibs) has been scraped in and the lathe now meets tool room lathe specs. I got origional Pratt Bernard 3 and 4 jaw chucks from Kitts Supply when they still had them. The 4 jaw, which was 3/4-16, had to be bored and rethreaded to 1-10. This was done by mounting the chuck on the face plate with it's own jaws and indicating it in after making an exact copy of the spindle threads to check it with. I would highly reccommend the book MACHINE TOOL RECONDITIONING by Edward F. Connelly. It tells you how to scrape and make scrapers and has step by step proceedures for rebuilding a lathe, milling machine, and grinding machine. It is well worth what ever price you pay for it. ------- Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 20:19:28 -0500 From: "ebower" Subject: Re: Sears/AA Lead / crossslide screw threads? Mike, The leadscrew for the AA is the same as the Atlas 6". The thread is 1/2-16 ACME RH Stub. I have chased these in the past. I have also made a replacement for my 6" Atlas. I have both lathes. If you want to buy a leadscrew, contact Clausing and ask the price of the 3950-16 screw collar assembly. You will have to shorten the leadscrew (on the bearing end) because the Atlas 6" is approximately 24" long. I had special acme cutters made to chase these threads. They must be done on a lathe other than the AA. Earl ------- Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2000 00:41:07 -0000 From: "Tim Clarke" Subject: LEVELING, c'mon you guys! Some time back, there was an article in H.S.M. about setting up your lathe. The author said a few thing that really made sense, one being that on small, flexible bench lathes, the load applied during cutting can't be ignored. Another was that being dead nuts level isn't near as important as removing twist. What I did after reading the article, was to level with my machinist level, and it ain't a master precision. Then I made a upright clamped to the toolholder about 2 feel tall. From this I hung a homemade plumb bob. I laid a steel scale underneath held to the crosslide with a magnet. Then, by cranking the carriage to the extreme limits of it's travel, I discovered I had a twist in my bed. I cut shims from sheel metal, tin foil, and plastic from the recycle box. I guess the whole effort lasted about an hour. After leveling, I adjusted the tailstock as described in a couple of previous posts. There is little need to spend a bunch of your beer and bait money on something you'll use infrequently and don't really need. There is usually a way around any rule chiseled in stone, and it has always amazed me how simple it seems when someone tells me. Many thanks to the now forgotten old geezer who shared this with me, and I hope that this works for you as well as it has for me. Regards, Tim in Oregon ------- Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2000 14:35:47 -0500 From: Jude Miller Subject: Re: LEVELING, c'mon you guys! Jim Irwin wrote: > 'Taint that hard, pard. To work best, a machine has to be straight and > square with itself according to its design. To get it to that ideal > condition, you have to have some reference point. You could use the > north star just as well. But most folks find it easiest to use > Mother Earth's force of gravity as a semi-permanent > reference. The instrument of choice for this is a level. > However, one can use the > 2ft long plumb-bob and accurate scale method quite nicely. > 0.005 x 2 ft is 0.010...certainly easy enough to see with a good > scale (I'd need a magnifier, though!). > My level is an English 6 incher divided to 0.005in per ft. > Master levels divide to 0.0005. How much precision do you want? > One would drive himself crazy trying > to level to 0.0005 using shims, as they are much thicker than this. > I level the bench my lathe is mounted to. The bench is 2 1/2 ft deep > and 4 ft wide. With my level I can detect a sheet of paper under > any mount foot. Best regards, Jim Irwin Yeah, but if you want to turn to within a thou, you need less than 0.0005 (1/2 of 0.001 inch) variation in the tool position as you move along the bed. On a 12 inch lathe, that corresponds to roughly the same amount of twist in the bed. If the headstock end of the bed is level (front-to-back, not along the length of the bed), then the tailstock end must be level within +/- 1/2 thou per six inches. This is almost as close as you can measure with a master precision level. If you level with a coarser level, you can easily have several thou of twist in the bed, meaning you will turn a taper of up to twice that. There is another method, called Rollie's Dad's method, which doesn't use a level. I've included it here as text. RDM probably doesn't work as well as a really good level, but it doesn't require one either. This is one of several descriptions I found on the 'Net. Best, Jude Miller ------- Rollie's Dad's Method of Lathe Alignment Copyright 1997 by New England Model Engineering Society. What you need: A round bar The bar length should be about 1/3 to 2/3 the bed length. The bar must be of one diameter along most or all of its length. The bar does not have to be completely straight. Since Rollie has a car repair shop, he uses the shafts from junked shocks and struts. A dial indicator The end of the measuring rod should be flat. A means of mounting the indicator on the cross-slide. To do a vertical alignment the mount must be adjustable. A chuck of any type to hold the bar. Runout in the chuck is not a problem (for the same reason that a slight bend in the rod is not a problem). What you DON'T need A tailstock, perfectly straight bar, a collet or precision chuck or any tool bits. Applying the method (Horizontal Alignment) 1. Put the bar in the chuck. 2. Mount the dial indicator on the cross-slide at the center height of the lathe. 3. With the carrige near the chuck end, adjust the cross-slide so that the indicator reads a convienient "zero" value like 0.100 4. Turning the lathe by hand, adjust the cross-slide so that whatever runout you have is equal on both sides of your "zero" (say .105, .095). 5. Pull the indicator's measuring rod back by hand to clear any irregularities and move the carrige to the other end of the bar. 6. If the runout is not also centered there (say .110, .098) then your lathe is twisted and a foot should be shimmed. 7. Repeat from step 4 until runout at both ends is evenly divided on either side of your "zero". Applying the method (Vertical Alignment) 1. Put the bar in the chuck. 2. Mount the dial indicator on the carridge so that it is directly above the center line of the spindle. 3. With the carrige near the chuck end, adjust the indicator mount so that the indicator reads a convienient "zero" value like 0.100 4. Turning the lathe by hand, adjust the indicator mount so that whatever runout you have is equal on both sides of your "zero" (say .105, .095). 5. Pull the indicator's measuring rod back by hand to clear any irregularities and move the carriage to the other end of the bar. 6. If the runout is not also centered there (say .110, .098) then your lathe is twisted and a foot should be shimmed. 7. Repeat from step 4 until runout at both ends is evenly divided on either side of your "zero". Why This Method Works When the runout is evenly divided, at the zero point the runout is entirely in the vertical plane and the side of the bar is exactly one bar radius from the turning axis of the spindle. If the runout is evenly divided at both ends of the bar, the spindle is rotating in a plane parallel to the ways. Common Error Some people will turn the lathe to the point where the indicator reads "zero" and then move the carridge down to the other end to see if it still reads "zero". That method will only work if your bar is known to be perfectly straight. Do not confuse that method with this one. I learned all this from a fellow member of the New England Model Engineering Society. Join us the first Thursday of every month at the Charles River Museum of Industry in Waltham, Mass. ------- Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2000 17:32:41 -0500 From: Jude Miller Subject: Re: Re: LEVELING, c'mon you guys! cdhintonx~xxmsn.com wrote: > If the lathe is off in the vertical- doesn't this indicate that the > lathe is sway backed or humped back? And how would shimming a foot > correct this? Craig If the lathe has a hump or a sag in the bed, then the level will read differently if placed on the long axis of the lathe at the headstock and tailstock ends. This is less serious than twist, since the cutting radius is little changed by vertical misalignment. A vertical error of 5 thou on a workpiece 0.5 inches in diameter increases the diameter by about .0001 [this figure corrected per following follow-up e-mail from Jude Miller]. The same error horizontally changes the diameter by 10 thou. Depending on the feet, they may be shimmed under the sides and the end to remove misalignment. The idea is to shim e.g. the middle of the far end of the tailstock foot higher than the part toward the headstock to decrease hump, lower for sag. Best, Jude Miller ------- Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2000 17:38:58 -0500 From: Jude Miller Subject: Re: Re: LEVELING, c'mon you guys! Slipped a decimal place there. A vertical error of 5 thou on a 1/2 inch workpiece changes diameter by only about a tenth (0.0001 inch). The horizontal error is correct at 10 thou. Best, Jude Miller ------- Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2000 20:05:23 EST From: catboat15x~xxaol.com Subject: Re: LEVELING, c'mon you guys! In a message 12/22/00, jmreidx~xxu.washington.edu writes: >The point of levelling is not just to do it on the length of the bed, >but also to check for twist by using the level crosswise at both ends. On my 12X48 Craftsman/Atlas there are only three mounting holes, two under the head stock and only one in the middle at the tail stock end. Never worried too much about this, and I remember some article in an old Model Engineering magazine that recomended this type of mounting for a Myford of about the same dimensions. The method recomended there was to bolt the headstock end down tight, but leave the third mounting at the tailstock a little slack, just enough to keep the lathe from walking off the bench. So that is the way mounted my lathe. John Meacham ------- Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2001 00:28:29 -0600 From: Jon Elson Subject: Re: Carriage adjustment? mfb1fyfbx~xxteisprint.com wrote: > I need to adjust the Carriage (it moves between the head stock & tail > stock, with the long lead screw) The cross slide mounts on top of > it? The Carriage, cocks back& forth, when not connected to the lead > screw? When I take a cut along the lenght of a 3/4" dia of Aluminum, > the same amount of materical is remove over the lenght of the cut. > Can only find ONE setscrew to adjust (on the back side, the side W/O > the handle, for moving. On the tail stock side of the carriage. The gibs nobody knows about are UNDER the carriage, and prevent it from lifting up from the bed. There are two iron (I think) plates held on with 2 screws each. Under part of each plate are laminated shims. Sometimes people take these apart and get the shims caught on the screws, causing the shims to wrinkle and prevent the plates from riding close to the bottom of the ways. On the back of the carriage there should be 4 gib adjusting screws to adjust front-back free play of the carriage. You have to set this for the LEAST worn part of the bed, or it will cause binding when it gets to the least worn part. There should also be 4 gib adjusting screws on the right side of the upper part of the cross slide casting. I hope this info helps. this info should apply to either 10 or 12" Atlas or Atlas/Craftsman lathes. > Cannot remove the carriage from the lathe, W/O disassembling the > lever to engage the lead screw? Hope this explains it, better? To remove the whole carriage, there are several ways to go. You can disassemble the half-nuts, remove the bottom gibs and lift straight off. You can remove the right-end bracket for the leadscrew and pull the leadscrew straight out to the right (if you have enough room over there). Again, you can now lift straight off after removing bottom gibs. Or, you can remove the two large Phillips-head screws in the top of the carriage, disconnecting the apron from the carriage. Then, remove bottom gibs and lift. It depends on what you want to look at as to which is the desired method. Jon ------- Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 06:24:42 -0000 From: hhrjx~xxhome.com Subject: Re: Swapping Lead screw end for end "Jerry Halcomb" wrote: >>Someone on the list said his leadscrew was swapped on his 10". As far as I can tell on my 3983 model atlas 12" it can't be done. The right hand end is smaller than the left end so unless metal can be added I don't see how. I am open to suggestions rather than spending $284.00 on a new lead screw. Jerry << Jerry, adding metal to your leadscrew shouldn't be a problem if you have the capability to heliarc weld. I've used this several times in the past on shafting and dies. I don't know the difference in diameter between the ends but if it's not too great you might try metal spray to add material. I had a worn fire pump shaft sprayed and then turned to the original diamenter, worked great. Cost can rival that of new parts however. Ron Jones ------- Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 21:42:45 -0800 From: escarcegax~xxhome.com Subject: FORW: Lathe bed milling Guys, I know this fellow. If any of you have been contemplating a bed regrind of your Atlas_Craftsman lathe beds contact him. My money says he'll shoot a better price on these beds because they are flat and not prismatic. If anyone contacts him, report back as to price. IF anyone has him do a bed, let us know how it went. Marty Found this in rec.crafts.metalworking: == BEGIN forwarded message == Subject: Lathe bed milling From: Michael Morgan <40pointsx~xxhome.com> Newsgroups: rec.crafts.metalworking This is a sales pitch so quickly avert your eyes! If you have an old lathe and are interested in scraping it to restore the alignment of the beast, you have no doubt found that the hardest part is the bed. Professional rebuilders almost never scrape the bed of a lathe except for final touch up. We machine or grind them. If you would like your lathe bed machined please let me know. I have the machine that can do it and do it cheap. OK so I think it's cheap, you may think I am a highway man. How cheap is cheap, how about a 10X60" South Bend with soft ways for $300.00 One note: I can only do this for individuals. Companies must hire my company for this work, but if you have a lathe in your garage that needs some TLC now is the time! Thanks and all of those who looked away to avoid the sales pitch may now look back again. Mike ------- Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 11:21:24 -0500 From: Jude Miller Subject: Re: FORW: Lathe bed milling escarcegax~xxhome.com wrote: > I know this fellow. If any of you have been contemplating a bed regrind > of your Atlas_Craftsman lathe beds contact him. My money says he'll shoot > a better price on these beds because they are flat and not prismatic. If > anyone contacts him, report back as to price. IF anyone has him do a bed, > let us know how it went. I assume he's talking about milling the bed rather than grinding it? Does this give a smooth enough finish for a lathe bed? He quoted me $180 for a 6 x 18 bed (i.e. 30 inch unhardened bed with flat ways). Best, Jude Miller ------- Date: Sat, 04 Nov 2000 08:24:40 -0500 From: Ronald Thibault Subject: Re: What to look for when buying lathe If you have a micrometer or dial caliper, measure the bed ways as follows: 1. Across the vertical surfaces of both the front and back ways. 2. Distance between the 2 inner vertical surfaces. 3. Thickness of ways at the front of the front way, and the back of the back way. 4. distance from the top of the ways to the sliding surface of the carriage. Do this at several locations along the bed. The most important measurements are the width of the ways. Any wear here will directly affect the ability to turn a constant diameter piece. The thickness is not nearly as important, but the more uniform the better. The distance from the way to the sliding surface of the carriage, is an indicator of the wear between the two, excessive wear means the bed is probably also shot. The distance between the inner vertical surfaces indicates whether the tailstock will be accurate in its' positioning. Generally though even a badly worn bed will still be good here. The tailstock gets moved orders of magnitude less than the carriage. A couple thousandths wear between the vertical surfaces of the bed, is not too bad. You can compensate for this, with some time turning on that lathe. Much more than this though, should cause serious thought about the purchase. In general look at the sliding surfaces of the rest of the lathe. The more the original grinding marks show, the better. The top of the bed was originally ground smooth, but the rest of the surfaces have a hash mark look (look at the inner way vertical surfaces, for an example). Good luck with your inspection! Ron Thibault ------- Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 13:30:18 -0500 From: Richard Meredith Subject: New acme thread lead screws I have been a non participating member of this group for some time. I read each post with interest, and have picked up a great deal of information. Several times people have asked about sources for new lead screws. I have dealt with a small firm that specializes in Acme thread stock and nuts in Two Rivers WI for many years with good results. They do not cut or machine the material, but do sell UPS able lengths of just about any Acme thread. The firm is: Green Bay Manufacturing 2617 18th Street Two Rivers, WI 54241 Phone: (920) 793-2411 They do not have an internet presence that I know of, so you will have to contact them by phone or mail. I hope this will help, and Good Luck! ------- Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 19:11:48 -0800 From: "John Johnson" Subject: Interesting Pattern I am the second owner of a Craftsman 12x36 lathe with cabinet stand (M/N 101.28990, S/N 108009) that I have had for about three years now. The first owner bought it new from Sears about 1975. Yesterday while turning the axles of my live steam Shay, I noticed an interesting pattern that repeated along the cut every 1/8". I figure that it is related to the lead screw somehow. It appears to be some kind of light wave or disruption to the otherwise smooth cut. I was turning steel about 1.250" diameter down to 1.125" diameter. Using a carbide insert cutting tool and a quick change (phase II) type tool post taking off about .015" at a time. I was using the slowest feed rate available with the quick change gearbox (.0042" per rev). The cut was about 6" long. The axle was held on one end by the 3-jaw chuck and with a live center on the other end. It is not real objectionable and will get covered by paint, but I was wondering if this means I have some- thing worn out. I did replace the half nuts about two years ago so I know they are in relatively good shape. The lead screw looks fine, but maybe it has a bend in it that might be binding something some where? I have not explored the QC box to see if there is anything in there that looks wrong. Any ideas? John D.L. Johnson Chico, California www.LocoGear.com ------- Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 22:53:16 -0500 From: "Wayne" Subject: Re: Interesting Pattern John , I have sometimes noticed a swirling pattern on short and longer turns on my 12x42. I have always thought is was in the mfg. process of the metal I was turning? I found today that my headstock bearings were a little loose, so I have tightened them up, but have yet to turn any of the same stock to see if that was it. Try this... remove the chuck and try to wiggle the head/main shaft. If you can feel a slop, work on the bearings. It is a simple procedure and I'm glad i caught mine .Good luck and keep us posted. Wayne(rice)Burner ------- Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 22:07:56 -0600 From: "J Tiers" Subject: Re: Interesting Pattern Possibly you have a slightly loose carriage, and the lead screw usually holds it down except at one point of its revolution, maybe a slight bend and that is the high spot. If it looks like a phonograph record, ir is probably a chatter mark, even if you don't hear or feel a chatter. You should be able to adjust the gibs, unless you have a worn spot on the bed. Try slathering some extra way oil on so it is under the carriage before the next such cut, and see if that helps. If so, probably looseness. Jerry ------- Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 00:12:47 EST From: catboat15x~xxaol.com Subject: Re: Interesting Pattern jjohnsonx~xxlocogear.com writes: > , I noticed an interesting pattern that repeated along the cut every 1/8 If the pattern looks like a rope or something similar it is chatter doing that. Try changing feeds, speeds etc. Once it starts it is sure hard to get it to stop what I call roping. John Meacham High Desert of California, Palmdale, Littlerock. ------- Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 00:34:16 -0600 From: Jon Elson Subject: Re: Interesting Pattern Yup. They all do it! Well, pretty much, anyway. It mostly shows up when making the final finish cut. I usually only see it when making a fine cut with a toolpost grinder. There are a couple of things you can do about it. First, run the lathe with the screw driven, but the carriage half nuts open, and look for an orbiting of the leadscrew. Some of them are bent, or have a little sag in them. This will cause the carriage to rock a little bit. If the screw runs true, then clean the threads and the key slot carefully with a rag or soft tool like a screwdriver blade, to dig all the chips out of there. Lube the screw well and try again, with the half nuts engaged. If the screw appears to move around, rather than running true, you should take the crossfeed drive and the halfnuts apart and clean and relube them. Swarf in the halfnuts and crossfeed drive can force the screw to move around and exert force on the carriage. Finally, if the carriage is loose in either the forward/back or up/down directions, a small pressure from the leadscrew can make it wobble on the bed, disturbing the trueness of the cut. Most likely not the QC box, unless the screw has something jammed between it and the collar that it fits into, or some other interference is binding the leadscrew so it doesn't run true. That is possible, though. You would see the screw 'orbiting' if this is the case. Jon ------- Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 09:17:48 -0800 From: Frank Evan Perdicaro Subject: Waves... My 10" Atlas has a worn 3-jaw chuck, a loose carriage, a heavily worn bed and a bent leadscrew, so I know why it does not make mirror finish parts. But keep this in mind. The leadscrew is being driven by straight-cut gears. The rotary motion through a straight-cut geartrain is not linear! You will never get smooth motion of the leadscrew with the gears these lathes come with. Sure, the variance is small but it never goes to zero. ------- Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 13:27:16 -0600 From: Jon Elson Subject: Re: Interesting Pattern Ah, you must have babbit bearings, then. On the Timken bearing lathes, the same tapered roller bearings handle both axial and radial loads. If your thrust bearing were rough, you would be able to feel it when turning the spindle manually. I think it is pretty hard for the babbit bearing to develop roughness this way, as the rotation of the lathe would smooth it off pretty quickly. It could be some vibration from the gear train that drives the leadscrew. But, it could also be tool vibration, or possible deflection of the workpiece. That is a common problem. Are you using a sharp-pointed tool, or does it take a wide cut? If the cut is too wide, it will cause vibration on these lighter lathes. Jon ------- Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 16:52:06 -0600 From: Jon Elson Subject: Re: Interesting Pattern Jude Miller wrote: > Oilite spindle bearings, ball thrust bearing. The spindle > turns smoothly, the roughness is noticeably if I load the > thrust bearing by pushing the spindle toward the headstock as I turn. Ahh, I thought you had mentioned it was a 10" Atlas, but this is the 6". If the bearings are bad, then you need to replace them. A small ball thrust bearing is not a very expensive item. > I've should probably replace it, but I don't want to remove > the spindle again. Last time around, I was in too much of > a hurry to get the lathe running to wait for the replacement. Well, if you are not happy with the results, then I think you need to replace that bearing. It should not be a big job. Jon ------- Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2001 01:31:57 EST From: sleykinx~xxaol.com Subject: Re: Digest Number 420 This may sound strange but, are your ways well oiled? A good way oil makes a big difference in that type phenomenon. Attribute it to "sticktion" .. the carriage is supposed to ride on a film of oil and if the oil isn't tough enough or enough of it there you can get some strange patterens ... the kind you can see but can't feel/measure (with any of my measuring sticks anyway). Good luck Glenn ------- Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2001 08:23:47 -0800 From: "John Johnson" Subject: Re: Interesting Pattern Thanks to all who responded to my post. I think the collective wisdom is a slightly bent lead screw and loose gibs causing the carriage to rock a bit making the rope like pattern. I'll have to spend some time this weekend checking it out. Thanks, John D.L. Johnson www.LocoGear.com ------- Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2001 22:38:59 -0800 From: "Larry Bailey" Subject: Re: Eliminating Carriage Slop >From: airxxxwolfx~xxyahoo.com >On my 6" 101.07301 lathe, the backside of the carriage has some >vertical play. I checked it out and found that the upper gib >was a little wider than the thickness of the way, and that there >was a gap of a few thousanths between the bottom gib and the >underside of the way. I carefully filed the bottom edge of the >upper gib until it fit perfectly against the edge of the way >without protruding past the bottom edge of the way. This enabled >the bottom gib to move closer to the underside of the way, but >not quite close enough. Using a dial indicator, I can pull up >on the carriage with the indicator reading .0025 of play. What >is the best way to remove this play? It looks to me that the >carriage would need to be milled a few thou where the bottom >gib bolts on, and then the gib shimmed to proper fit. Is this >the way to do it, or is there another way? Regards, Don Smith On my 12" there are brass shims in the 0.002-0.003" range to close this space. One uses the correct shims to fill the space while still allowing the carriage to travel smoothly. Check your parts diagrams. You probably need something similar. Larry ------- Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2001 08:06:51 -0500 From: "Trammell, Rex" Subject: RE: Eliminating Carriage Slop Yes, the six inch works the same way. These shims are easy to cut so you can make your own. The only limit on how well you can fit the carriage is bed wear. You set the shims so that the carriage is snug where the bed is not worn. The carriage will then be looser where the bed is worn thinner. Rex ------- Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2001 08:55:12 -0800 (PST) From: Don Smith Subject: RE: Eliminating Carriage Slop I think there`s a misunderstanding of the problem on my carriage. Adding shims will "increase" the slop in my carriage, and removing shims will "decrease" the slop in the carriage. In other words, the bottom plate that rides along the underside edge of the way, will be farther away if I add shims, creating more slop. The more shims you remove, the less slop you have in the carriage, because removing shims brings the bottom plate closer to the bed, while adding them moves the plate away from the bed. The problem is that I can`t get the bottom plate any closer to the bed because there are no more shims to remove Don... ------- Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2001 13:02:47 EST From: LADDERBARx~xxaol.com Subject: carriage play Look at the plates to see if there is any wear in it, if there is turn it over to the side that doesn't have any. (Take a stone to it to remove any burrs.) If play still exists look for wear on the bed rails or the carriage itself. Happy chip making. ------- Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2001 10:30:26 -0800 (PST) From: Don Smith Subject: Re: carriage play The plates are in perfect condition. As far as I can see, on my lathe the problem has to be either a worn bed, or a worn carriage. The only way I can see of correcting the problem without replacing the bed or carriage, is to mill a few thousanths off the bottom edge of the carriage where the bottom plate bolts on, and then just simply shim the plate to suit my needs, or make a special plate with a step on it. ------- Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2001 15:19:05 -0500 From: "Trammell, Rex" Subject: RE: carriage play You seem to understand how it all works but it still seems strange. The stack of shims is quite thick so the bed or the carriage would have to wear a lot in order to cause the condition you describe. If the bed is worn that much it will probably not be worn uniformly so achieving a snug fit from one end to the other will be hard. Also, since the bed only wears in the area where the carriage contacts, outer 3/8 inch or so, there would be a visible step showing the wear. If the wear is in the carriage itself milling off the bottom edge would fix the problem. The idea of a special plate with a step sounds good since you aren't risking anything very expensive to try it. Be sure to let us know how it turns out. Rex ------- Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2001 17:27:58 -0800 (PST) From: Don Smith Subject: RE: carriage play Hi Rex, Actually, my lathe, which I`ve only owned since last Tuesday, only had one shim between the plate and the carriage. This single shim was .0045 Anyway, I have solved the problem by milling the carriage where the plate bolts on. I only milled enough to suit my needs. The plate is now installed with no shims, and everything fits perfectly with no play, and the carriage moves smoothly. I could have milled some more metal off the carriage and shimmed the plate, so that as the bed wears, all I would have to do is re-adjust the thickness of the shims, but I decided to wait and do that next time. For now everything is fine the way it is. I measured the thickness of the bed, and starting from the tailstock end, and measuring about every 6 inches, I got readings of .430-.430-.429-.427 and .428 Since the .428 reading was right in front of the headstock, I was expecting a reading closer to .430 like the other end of the bed. My next job is to align the tailstock. Don... ------- Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2001 21:29:21 -0600 From: "J Tiers" Subject: Re: carriage play Poster wrote: >The only way I can see of correcting the problem without replacing the >bed or carriage, is to mill a few thousanths off the bottom edge of the >carriage where the bottom plate bolts on, and then just simply shim the >plate to suit my needs, or make a special plate with a step on it. I suppose you could turn the problem inside out, by putting a shim in, somewhat in the nature of a gib. That is, between the plate and the way. Then in order to get a reasonable thickness of the new "gib" , you can shim the plate out a bit. The "gib" can be secured several possible ways, including just bending up ears on the ends, or better, pinning it where a pin won't interfere. Jerry ------- Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2001 04:41:38 -0000 From: fyunchx~xxaol.com Subject: Re: Eliminating Carriage Slop HOw about milling a replacement bottom plate which is thinner where it attaches to the carriage, so that the other, unthinned part is higher than the bottom of the carriage? Then you can shim to fit. W.C. Gates ------- Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2001 00:17:27 -0600 From: Jon Elson Subject: Re: Eliminating Carriage Slop Right. I didn't reply before because I am only familiar with the 10 and 12" Atlas. Well, why is there so much clearance? Has the bed been reground, or has the carriage worn down that much? They usually gave a pretty generous allowance for wear, at least .015" to .020", at least on the 10". If the bottom gib has a groove worn where the bed rubs on it, you can flip the gib over and use the other side. If the bed is worn only in the most-used area, tightening the gib up too much will cause binding at either extreme end. If the bed is uniformly worn, or the carriage is worn down on the bottom, then you may have to either scrape down the lands the gibs attach to, or make a custom gib with a step in it. Other possibilities are to put shims under the carriage or wrap shims around the wear area on the gib, so that it constrains the carriage from lifting. Without knowing why the shim allowance is used up, it is hard to advise in a more specific way. Finally, you might want to find out what caused all this wear, and make sure you are using proper lubricants to prevent it as much as possible in the future. Jon ------- Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2001 14:05:58 EST From: anthrhodesx~xxaol.com Subject: Re: Eliminating Carriage Slop Don Smith wrote: << --- The problem is that I can`t get the bottom plate any closer to the bed because there are no more shims to remove. --- >> Sounds like maybe you have a late model carriage (for deeper ways) on an early model lathe. Firstly, you might try to find the correct carriage for your way depth measurement. Secondly, if you insist on trying to make this carriage work on your present lathe, measure the depth of your ways, then arrange to machine the matching part of the carriage to a few thou less than that measurement. When you reinstall it on the bed include a few shims to adjust the fit. In the future, presuming wear over a long period of time, you can then remove some of the shims to readjust the fit. That's the way the system is designed to function. Anthony Berkeley, Calif. ------- Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2001 09:16:07 -0600 From: "M K (Skip)Campbell Jr." Subject: Re: Dollar short, day late > I just wonder how to adjust the backgear/ backgear cover on it so > it don't rattle so much when I use it. I fixed a lathe I used to have that had that problem. I epoxied one of those little super magnets to the inside of the cover right at the edge so it locked to the headstock when closed. It worked like a champ. Regards, Skip Campbell Ft. Worth, TEXAS 12X36 101.28990 http://www.mkctools.com ------- Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2001 22:47:30 +0200 From: Jean-Claude Gerber Subject: Re: Dollar short, day late Hello John, I´m not boating and therefore could not use it as an anchor! A piece of rubber of about 1/8" thick with contact glue on it and on the rim of the backgear case; wait until it is dry to the hand; hammer on the rim so that it glues down well, cut it with a blade to leave just a strip running on the rim and rattling has gone. Don´t sleep in after that, the workshop ambiance does so much change. Jean-Claude ------- Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2001 19:50:09 -0500 From: Ronald Thibault Subject: Re: Back gear bushing replacment At 10:09 PM 3/27/01 -0800, you wrote: > The first time I used my 10" with the new half horse motor it > stripped about 15 teeth off the back gears. Grrr. Sobel sold me > some good used gears and I am in the process of replacing the junk > parts. One problem area is the bushings in the back gear sleeve, part > 10-248. Atlas lists the "SLEEVE with bushings" and I can see why. > There appears to be no good way to remove and replace the bushings > in this part. My bushings are clearly quite worn (like every other > part of the lathe) and need replacement. > Has anybody replaced these? If so, how? I use a Pilot Bearing Puller for these tasks. This puller is used to remove the bearing in a flywheel in manual auto transmissions. front end of the transmission shaft fits into these bearings. It resembles a 3 jaw pulley remover, but with the jaws arranged to open from the inside of the bearing and locking onto the blind end of the bearing. I originally bough mine for, of course, removing the bearing in my Jeep. I've used it on occasion for just such jobs on my machine tools. They are not terribly expensive, and come in handy. Mine has a range of up to 1 1/2" ID and 1 1/2" long bearings. On my Atlas I had to turn the OD of the replacement bearings slightly. When pressed in they were compressed enough to bind on the backgear shaft. Ron Thibault ------- Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2001 00:18:48 -0500 From: A J Palik Subject: Re: anyone know?? jchodzkox~xxhotmail.com wrote: > hey all, i'm missing the thread protector that goes under > the set screw for the spindle assembly far left (threaded collar) > part#9-124.whats it made of?would a little piece of leather work? > also can anyone tell me the thickness of washer#9-87that goes on top > of the brass crossfeed nut? is it brass?took almost three weeks > via ups to get the cross feed nut.it went to texas on its' way to > calif.i want my machine back together and think it would drive me > crazy to wait so long for a washer. this is all for craftsman/atlas > 100-28990 underneath drive.thanks for any info. john To protect the threads under the set screw I use a piece of lead shot---a small lead ball that is used in shot guns---another thing that will work is a small piece of lead off a wheel weight----use your pocket knife and cut it down to size ------- Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2001 15:55:00 -0000 From: rweersingx~xxworldnet.att.net Subject: Re: 9" threading chart --- In atlas_craftsmanx~xxy..., "Dana Diller" wrote: >>> I need help. I was given a nine inch 1936 Atlas 918 Utility lathe. It is in good shape and I have it adjusted and working well. I can't find a gear change/threading chart. I have a manual for a 10 inch, but the gear info does not seem to fit. It is also possible that I did not get all of the gears or other hardware. <<< Hello Dana, many of the parts in the 10" lathe are the same as the 9" lathe. You may be able to use the 10" chart on the 9" lathe if you use some 10" parts. It would be helpfull if you could find someone in your area with a 10" lathe so you could compare the gear setup with your lathe. You can easily modify the 10" gears to fit the 9" lathe as per an Atlas bulletin at http://www.atlas-press.com/tb_chgrmod.htm I have an early model 10" lathe which is suppose to be like the 9" and I can freely change parts with my later model 10"lathe. lots of luck Bob ------- Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2001 06:49:46 -0400 From: Ronald Thibault Subject: Re: Back lash >>What is the back lash which should be allowed from the handwheel. Mine is approx. 3/8" which seems to me far too large. When I dismantled the whole carriage, I could not find any trace of wear on the handwheel shaft, neither in the train of gears going up to the pinion rack. I looked at the parts with a magnifier and did not see any trace of wear. Somebody knows about it ? << The gear train for the carriage handwheel has slots in the bracket. Loosen the three screws and slide the assembly towards the rack. >>Dials on the compound Rest and Carriage Saddle. They seem to act as a distance ring to block the play towards the handles. Has somebody made modifications so that the dials are much larger (the original are for kids with good rabbit eyes) and turnable to start a job on the Zero-Mark ? Thanks a lot for any help Jean-Claude << Look on my Web site (address below) for a short article on how I made a new zero adjustable dial for my cross feed screw. Ron Thibault North Augusta, SC USA Builder Miinie #2 Captain R/C Combat Ship USS Arizona http://pages.prodigy.net/thibaultr/ ------- Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2001 19:47:39 EDT From: steamclassx~xxaol.com Subject: Re: Bed Milling/Grinding>>How Much $$$ ??? Jeff..I Just had my 54" bed re-ground on my 10" Atlas and it cost me 175.00. But they also did the sides and got it all squared up. Pretty good price I thought. The company is Brown & Covey of Kansas city. John ------- Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 00:31:14 -0500 From: Jon Elson Subject: Re: "Squeak" gstonex~xxTECHLINE.COM wrote: >> I have a 12" Atlas that is 25 years old. After finishing a project the other day I noticed that the spindle is noticeable stiffer than it used to be and it has a "squeak" in what sounds like the left bearing of the head stock. My plan is to replace both spindle bearings and the drive belt. My questions: 1. Is there anything else that I should do while I have it apart? 2. Does anyone have any "pearls of wisdom" about the disassembly/reassembly? I do have the original parts list and the manual of lathe operation. << Before tearing the lathe down, make a disc that will fit into either end of the spindle, with a step at the right diameter to securely seat in either end. (That means, use something like 1/4" steel plate and put a shallow step on both sides. Also center drill in from both sides. You can then use a gear puller to drive the spindle out, and later, back in. Before pressing the spindle out, clean under the lip of the bearing inner races. I didn't do this once, and dirt was packed under the race (which is a LOT harder than the spindle) and it bound the bearing really well. I was able to back it off, clean, remove galling with a stone, and then try again. >> 3. Does anyone know the Timken part numbers so I could order the replacements before disassembly or is it wiser to have the parts in your hand when you go in? 4. The book doesn't show a cone for this bearing-does it come as a unit or are there separate bearings and cones? << Yup, you need 4 Timken parts, 2 inner races, and 2 outer. >> 5. I seem to have read somewhere that the lubrication of these bearings needs to be improved. Anyone have knowledge of this? << I'm using SAE #10, with a drip feed wick. If the wick gets gummed up or lost, you will get too little, or too much, lube flow. What you want is to fill the cup, and have it last several hours. The chip guards, if in good shape, trap a puddle of oil at the bottom of the bearings, so even when the cups run dry, there is still oil in the bearing. If the cups are badly gouged after several spindle pulls, you might do well to make new ones, or try to buy them. They are supposed to seat pretty well against the outer bearing bore to trap that puddle. Later Atlas manuals seem to now recommend SAE #20 oil, so I will have to switch grades. There are special machine spindle oils sold by the catalog machine tool supply places. Jon ------- Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2001 00:30:53 -0000 From: john.vanbrocklin2x~xxunisys.com Subject: Re: Help! Atlas 6" Hi..This is also my first post, but I have been lurking for awhile. Actually you are lucky both the nut and the screw are worn. I recently purchased the cross slide nut for the 6" and later had to order the matching screw since the older size thread is no longer made and the new nut didn't fit the old screw. Anyway, the old lathe is real tight now after replacing most wearables. John ------- Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2001 16:46:34 -0400 From: "Ebower" Subject: Re: Craftsman 6 in. Re-assembly Problems > When I finished re-assembling my Craftsman/Atlas 6x18 lathe, I noticed > some interference between the compound and cross slides. When I set > the compound at 30 degrees, as is my practice on larger lathes, the > cross feed handle hits the compound. The two slides only interfere > with one another when the crossfeed is in its last two inches of > travel toward the operator, but that does effecively reduce the > diameter of the workpiece to 3.5 or 4 inches. > I didn't pay that much attention to this part of the lathe when it was > together; I never used it before rebuilding it. Is this interference > normal or have I put something back together incorrectly? Do you set > the compound at more than 30 degrees for normal turning? I guess > threading is limited to smaller diameters, too. Thanks, Dave Dave, There are two possibilities that may be the problem. Whoever had your lathe before could have replaced the feed handle with a bigger one. The other possibility is that the spacer that should be between the carriage and dial is either missing or has been shortened up. My Atlas 6 x18 does not have your problem. My compound stays at 29 degrees for threading and I have had no problem of interference with the handles. The only time I have had problems is when I would set the compound at a 5 or 10 degree angle and try to machine. Earl ------- Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2001 15:43:39 -0600 From: "Maxwell Sandford" Subject: Re: Craftsman 6 in. Re-assembly Problems My 101.21400 has this problem. The handle on the compound interferes with the top of the cross-slide (not with it's handle) limiting the travel of the compound when it is set at 29 degrees. All parts are original and there does not appear to be any spacer missing. The compound attaches to the cross-slide with set screws that tighten against spacers that lock into the circular groove that is turned into the top of the cross-slide casting. The problem is that the compound is low enough that its handle interferes with the top of the compound thereby preventing the full compound feed range. There isn't any interference for threading because you can set the compound position within its range of available motion. There is plenty of range for thread cutting. The problem appears when you are trying to turn using the compound, for example if you want to cut a short taper. If the compound angle is significantly larger than 29, then the compound handle doesn't interfere. This looks like it is built into the design of these 6" machines. ------- Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2001 17:00:44 -0500 (CDT) From: dswrx~xxwebtv.net Subject: Re: Craftsman 6 in. Re-assembly Problems Dave, I have a 6" Craftsman/Atlas lathe that I bought new. It is normal for the Crossfeed Knob (ball end) to interfere with the Compound Body when the Compound is set to the 29 degrees recommended to cut a 60 degree V thread. However, it is only on the last two revolutions of withdrawal from the lathe center. That is only about 0.200", more or less. This lathe will only swing around 3" over the Crossslide in any case. I have turned a 3/4" thick steel plate to a diameter of 4", no easy task on a lathe this small! In fact, I can't remember how I did it! Around 50 years ago, so forgive me for faded memories. It was to make a Steady Rest that was featured in a Popular Mechanic's magazine. (The rest works great too!) ------- Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2001 21:28:06 -0500 From: Bill Aycock Subject: Re: Craftsman 6 in. Re-assembly Problems Gentlemen, for what it's worth, I just checked my Atlas 618, and the cross feed will crank back all the way (limited by threads inside cross feed) and the compound will rotate without interference. It is set to 29 deg, usually, but will not hit the crank (or vice-versa) with the cross feed back, and at any angle. It is assembled with the components shown on the parts list, as shown, because I had to replace the crank when I got the lathe. The crank had been broken in some rough handling, ages ago. Maybe the problem is only on some models, because it is not on mine. Bill Bill Aycock --- Persimmon Hill Woodville, Alabama, US 35776 (in the N.E. corner of the State) W4BSG -- Grid EM64vr w4bsgx~xxarrl.net ------- Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 19:39:02 -0000 From: doogdoogx~xxhawaii.rr.com Subject: Re: Gibs for late model 12 X 36 > In the process of rebuilding my Atlas 12 X 36 with Q/C I have > misplaced the gibs for apron, crossslide and the compound. > Clausing/atlas has replacements that are made of plastic. I prefer > metal. Does anyone spare metal gib strips for model 3983, 12" X 36". > Rod Reed Lafayette, LA I made my own out of 1/8" steel stock. If you have a mill it will make the job easier or a milling attachment for your lathe or last resort is the file. ------- Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 20:14:41 -0700 From: "John Johnson" Subject: Re: Gibs for late model 12 X 36 Last year I replaced my plastic gibs and made brass ones for my 12x36 A/C lathe. I did this by using a friend's milling machine. They were not that hard to make and I've really noticed a big difference in performance with the brass gibs over the plastic ones. I would suggest that you try to make a set from some 1/8" x 1/2" brass bar stock. You machine off the edge at a 45-degree bevel and then make some flats along it where the set screws go. John D.L. Johnson jjohnsonx~xxLocoGear.com www.LocoGear.com ------- Date: Sun, 13 May 2001 20:00:08 -0700 From: "John Johnson" Subject: Re: Gibs for late model 12 X 36 > > You machine off the edge at a 45-degree bevel and then make some > > flats along it where the set screws go. > Shouldn't that be 30* or 60* (depending on point of view) as the > slides are 60* are they not? Yes, 30-60 is correct. Sorry for any confusion. John D.L. Johnson www.LocoGear.com ------- Date: Tue, 15 May 2001 18:51:06 EDT From: LADDERBARx~xxaol.com Subject: Re: Tumbler Gears On Atlas 12" Lathe [LOOSE NOISY GEARS, WITH WORN CENTRE HOLES] MSC makes a bronze bushing kit (per lubed) that all different sizes. MSC industrial supply 1 -800-645-7270 or WWW.mscdirect.com. It is on page 3619 of the Big Book. part #35375781 SAE-841 oil impregnated bronze bearing assortment. List price is $36.99 this is a 45 piece assortment. Hope it helps. I replaced every bushing in my lathe with it. Anyone with an Atlas should have this kit. Mike ------- Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 17:08:51 +0000 From: Jon Elson Subject: Re: Drive pin slippage on Craftsman 12X24 STYSx~xxMINDSPRING.COM wrote: > I am having a re-occurring problem with my 12X24. I am currently > working on a large diameter (11.5") face plate that I made out of > scrap aluminum. I have all but completed it with the exception of > truing up the face. When I start to make a light cut (approximately > .002 to.005"), the drive pin disengages, and the face plate stops > rotating. Now, this has happened to me a number of times in the past, > but I stop the lathe, push the pin back in, and continue on my merry > way. It usually happens when I try to take a "heavy" cut which for me > is greater than >.010" depth. But tonight I can't go more that 1/4" > worth of travel across the face of the faceplate before it disengages > again. I'm afraid that either the drive pin hole in the spindle > pulley assembly is tapered or the drive pin in the bull gear is > tapered. I should also state that I am not using the backgears. > Any suggestions other then disassembly and inspection? I suspect either the spring, ball, or both have been dropped out of the pin assembly. There are two detent grooves in the pin, and the ball and spring are to hold the pin in those positions. It is also possible that the bull gear is loose or improperly positioned. It is held in place by an angled set screw to the spindle. If it is free to wobble, due to the setscrew being loose, it may act to work the drive pin back from the engaged position. Tapering of the hole and the pin are likely. My detents are pretty strong, however. I can barely pull the pin when I have a little oil on my hands, so the detent must be resisting to the tune of about 50 Lbs. Jon ------- Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 01:50:43 -0000 From: STYSx~xxMINDSPRING.COM Subject: Re: Drive pin slippage on Craftsman 12X24 Jon, after I posted this question, I when back into my shop and finished the face plate in the fastest backgear. It worked fine, but the rpm's were a little slow. After I was done cleaning up, I took a closer looked the spindle assembly with a flashlight. I found that when I pushed in the drive pin, and held the spindle pulley assembly from moving, I could get about 5 degrees of movement between the bull gear and the spindle! I did find that the set screw on the bull gear had backed out, and the bull gear was loose on the spindle. I tighten it, and now the only play is between the drive pin and the bull gear / spindle pulley assembly, and is greatly reduced. I'm pretty sure that the ball & pin are still in place, for there is some resistance when I pull or push on the drive pin. But its a lot less that 50lbs. I bet the combination of a weak spring and the loose bull gear caused my problem. I'll get a chance to turn this week end, and I'll see if the problem has gone away. If not, I guess I'll need to partially disassemble the spindle assembly, and see about replacing that spring... Thanks Rick Stys Apex, NC Craftsman / Atlas 12X24 ------- Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 20:11:58 -0700 From: Jerry Rude Subject: Re: Drive pin slippage on Craftsman 12X24 Rick: Hi, I'm new to the list, but just fixed the same problem on my 10 inch model. What had happened is the large gear allen screw wouldn't hold the gear in place, slipping slightly. This and the fact the back gear pin was loose in its hole, having slipped out so many times. So I reamed the pin hole, and made a new pin, about .015 larger out of a piece of SS. Then, make sure the gear is tight up against the pulley and the allen screw tightened well. If it continues to slip in the future, I'll make a clamp which will hold the gear in place, not allowing it to move laterally. Jerry Rude 10F x 48 newly purchased but still awaiting parts to complete it. ------- Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 23:36:13 -0400 From: Ronald Thibault Subject: Re: Drive pin slippage on Craftsman 12X24 The pin can be removed for inspection. Normally the spring ball assembly prevents the pin from coming out as the pin has shoulders on either side of the ball. To remove mine I carved a little wedge out of a craft stick, and inserted it next to the pulley end shoulder. The ball then rode up the wedge and past the shoulder, releasing the pin. Ron Thibault North Augusta, SC USA Builder Miinie #2 Captain R/C Combat Ship USS Arizona http://pages.prodigy.net/thibaultr/ ------- Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 04:19:07 +0000 From: Jon Elson Subject: Re: atlas lathe parting problem brluckx~xxnbnet.nb.ca wrote: > I have a atlas 12" underdrive lathe and have just > purchased a new parting tool . I am new to using this lathe. I have > used a larger standard modern 12" for parting and had no trouble. > Are atlas lathe too light for parting cold rolled and mild steel ? No, but if anything is loose, it won't work well! I had a rather sloppy Atlas 10", but when I tightened up all the gibs it worked much better. There are two steel plates under the carriage that prevent the carriage from lifting up from the bed. Try to lift your bed at the front and back. Observe the oil film right at the edge of the carriage. It will detect movement of .001" or so, even better than you can feel the slack. If there is looseness there, you can remove these plates and remove a lamination from the shim to reduce the slack. I think the laminations are .004", so you may want to put a sheet of kitchen aluminum foil or two back to get halfway in between. Make sure to check at the tailstock end of the lathe, it will bind there if you get it too tight. (The more worn area at the headstock end may show more slack at that point.) > I have the lantern style toolpost. The lathe just wants to chatter > itself to peices. I have tried grinding a edge to make the chips role > but have had no luck . How much should a 3/4 horsepower underdrive 12" > lathe be able to cut ? Any suggestions would be appreciated. It will cut plenty, but only if it's tight. If there is slop anywhere, it will show up worse in the parting-off operation than anywhere else. The infeed force is so high, it can lift the rear of the carriage. But, also, check the compound for slack. You may have to tighten the gibs on the compound for parting-off. The lantern toolpost is a horror. I replaced mine over 10 years ago with a Phase-II knockoff of the Aloris-style dovetail toolpost, and it made an enormous difference on a 10" Atlas. I've upgraded to a 12" Atlas, and I still use that toolpost, and highly recommend it. Finally, don't forget the spindle and chuck. If you have a dial indicator, check the spindle for free play (both axial and radial). Apply a 50 Lb force upward as close to the chuck or spindle nose as possible. If there is more than a few thousandths of free play, you need to inspect further. If this is a babbit bearing lathe, there are shims under the bearing caps that can be removed, but free play indicates wear, and when you pull shims the bearing will no longer be round. If this is a Timken roller bearing lathe, then your bearings may be worn out, or the preload may need to be adjusted. Finally, the chuck jaws need to grip a bar along the full length of the jaw. A common problem is known as "bellmouthing", where the outermost part of the jaws are worn, so only the back of the jaw actually grips the work. If you can wiggle the bar in the jaws when the chuck is just very lightly tightened on the work, that is an indication. There are several procedures for grinding the jaws on the lathe, so they are aligned with the lathe's axis. A Dremel tool, air grinder or other spindle can be fixed to the toolpost to do this. It takes only a few minutes and makes a huge difference in all tougher turning jobs. Then, there is technique, but you probably know this. But, it is counter-intuitive that you need to keep the feed up when it starts to chatter, although your instinct is to slow down. I still have some trouble parting off aluminum pieces sometimes, but steel parts off silently and almost effortlessly on my 12" Atlas. I had enormous problems (all of the ones mentioned above, and then some) with my original 10" Atlas, and corrected them over time, as I figured out what was wrong with it. Hope some of this helps! Jon ------- From: johnt49x~xxh... Date: Wed Jul 25, 2001 11:07 am Subject: Re: 618 101.21400 Spindle removal?? > Hello to all (Ultimate newbie here), I need to remove the spindle, I > have read the Atlas's online bulletin on how to do this, and one part > that is not comprehensible: > "Place the piece of broomstick at the left end of spindle S and drive > in direction indicated by arrow until > key T emerges from gear R." > Fine. But how does one "drive" it? They warn about not "hammering with > a metal hammer" and this can't be done by hand. Any advise please? Alex Alex, I recently replaced my spindle bearings. It's ok to use a metal hammer to hit the broomstick, just don't hit the spindle directly. I used a piece of 2x2 & a ball peen hammer. I'd advise threading the collar back on the spindle flush with the spindle end after removing gear & spacer to protect the threads. Be sure you loosen set screw on collar that locates spindle pulley first. It took several good "taps" to get spindle moving, this may damage bearings, but you have little choice. Probably a good idea to replace them any way while it's apart. Two new bearings & cups came to a grand total of $22.96. Don't even consider buying these from Clausing. They want $45.80 ea! Any good bearing supply should have, or be able to get them for you. Timken P/N - 07079 Left bearing (1) - 07100 Right bearing (1) - 07196 bearing cups (2) When you reasssemble be careful when thighening collar on spindle end. If you tighten bearings too much you will have to "tap" spindle to loosen again as bearings are a press fit. You want just a slight amount of pre load on bearings. This is also a good time to replace your belt as you will probably never need to remove spindle again unless something breaks. Good luck, John ------- From: "Bob May" Date: Wed Jul 25, 2001 1:38 pm Subject: Re: [atlas_craftsman] 618 101.21400 Spindle removal?? What kills the bearings with a direct blow with a hammer is the very high force that gets generated when the hammer strikes. "Dead Blow" hammers use a cushion so that the peak force (which can easily deform steel) is lessened and spread over a longer time interval. The total inertia transfer is usually about the same but it's spread over a longer time and thus, the deformation pressures aren't attained anywhere along the line. I might also note that when you do use a dead blow hammer, you insure that the slack is taken up in all of the moving parts or you will just have the bearing slam against the far side and thus get the same high deformation pressures develop. This problem is why you usually see things like the broomstick method used as you will naturally push the stick down to the work and that takes up the slack so that you don't get the sudden shock of the impact of the internal parts. Bob May http://nav.to/bobmay ------- From: HUNLEY31x~xxa... Date: Wed Jul 25, 2001 4:18 pm Subject: Re: [atlas_craftsman] 618 101.21400 Spindle removal?? Alex, I just removed mine (101.07403) and had a hard time with it. After two hours I applied a little heat on the bearing (NOT HOT), that did the trick. I wasn't sure, thought I was doing something wrong, as it was so hard to 'break loose' but it came with a lot of effort. I agree with what everybody else stated. If I can add anything, it would be to screw the end collar back on before you start beating on the shaft. If for no other reason than to 'correct' any of the end threads when you remove the collar that may be damaged when 'tapping on the shaft.' Of course you must remove the collar to complete the removal, but I saw it as some insurance I could correct the end damaged threads if needed. As it was the machine weathered the experience better than I. It didn't shed a drop of blood. LOL. You want to be real careful, don't do anything you're not sure of, just look at the replacement prices of the 'stuff' you're beating on. Regards, Hank ------- From: catboat15x~xxa... Date: Wed Jul 25, 2001 8:35 pm Subject: Re: [atlas_craftsman] 618 101.21400 Spindle removal?? In a message dated 7/25/01, cravdraax~xxy... writes: > Fine. But how does one "drive" it? They warn about not "hammering with > a metal hammer" and this can't be done by hand. If you can't get hold of a lead, bronze, wood hammer go ahead with your household nail hammer, but put a chunk of wood that will take the sharp blow and distribute the force over the end you are driving. John Meacham High Desert of California, Palmdale, Littlerock. ------- From: sleykinx~xxa... Date: Wed Jul 25, 2001 8:44 pm Subject: Re: [atlas_craftsman] Re: 618 101.21400 Spindle removal?? johnt49x~xxh... writes: > When you reasssemble be careful when thighening collar on spindle end. > If you tighten bearings too much you will have to "tap" spindle to > loosen again as bearings are a press fit. You want just a slight > amount of pre load on bearings. One more point .. Make sure you put something soft (shotgun pellet, bit of brass or?) under the setscrew in the preload collar so the threads don't get munged. Glenn Neff Medford, OR ------- From: S1 Date: Thu Jul 26, 2001 5:41 am Subject: Re: [atlas_craftsman] 618 101.21400 Spindle removal?? It seems this would works well also. Something that would help the process is stuffing some dry ice inside the spindle to shrink it some, while lightly heating the bearings. The bearings expand, while the the spindle shrinks. A friend of mine buried a piece of 6" solid round bar in dry ice and its diameter shrunk .100". -Gabe ------- From: "Larry Bailey" Date: Thu Aug 16, 2001 1:53 pm Subject: Re: [atlas_craftsman] Re: Rollie's Dad's Lathe Alignment Question >sleykinx~xxa... wrote: > > In a message dated 08/16/2001,skip_evans writes: > > > I would adjust the tailstock to read zero. Right now you would > > > produce a slight taper. >From: Jon Elson >Then it is almost hopeless. Unless you have a bar that is both VERY >stiff, and very light, it is pretty hard to get it to stay straight. >A 1" steel bar hanging even one foot out of the chuck will droop a bit, >and deflect away when you touch it with the indicator. Using a level, >I can measure the bed twist right up against the headstock, and at the >rightmost end of the bed, however long the bed may be. that is a much >more accurate way of removing twist than trying to measure a bar in the >chuck. If you can come up with a 1 or 1.5" OD hollow roller that has >been centerless ground, that would make a much better test bar for >this purpose. It's been a while since I read through this method. I tried it once and found it rather cumbersome. IIRC the bar doesn't need to be perfectly straight or without taper but does to be measured accurately. Its location has to be measured accurately as well. So a reasonably straight, smooth bar, a dial indicator and a micrometer are the things you need. I tend to agree with Jon. I put a level on mine, tweak the mounting bolts and turn a test bar. The first time I did this I couldn't see a difference on the mic six inches from the chuck. Now if I need to relevel I often don't even bother with a test bar. Larry ------- From: rweersingx~xxw... Date: Fri Aug 17, 2001 4:38 am Subject: Re: Serial Number Location In atlas_craftsman, Robert McDonald wrote: > Thanks Bob. I guess mine is a 10F then, as I have the separate > apron, 3/4" lead screw, and power cross feed. > How did you determine what year yours were made? Rob Hello Rob, on the old lathes, Atlas would Date the spindle bearings with the day month and year. All bets are off if the bearings were replaced but since my lathes had such old dates I assumed that they were the original. I was surprised that my newer model "f" had an older date than my "D" model. I have since found out that Atlas made the "d" model until 1941. The "D" model I inherited from my grandfather when I was a child. My grandfather got the lathe out of the trash behind a machine shop in Kalamazoo Michigan about 1950 and I think he rebuilt it because many of the parts look new. I have a 1950 parts list and it is unbelieveable how cheap things were back then. I ramble on, good luck Bob ------- Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2001 20:46:46 -0400 From: "Ebower" Subject: Re: Re: I have plans for 6" New Style QC box.. There was one issue "Projects in Metal" August 1989. Should get October 1989 issue due to some corrections/omissions in above issue. The guy that did the original plans "John Toscano" was the writer. The second Magazine is "Modeltec" Six parts. George W. Yadon was the writer. July, August, September, October, November, and December 1991. This is a copy of John's but made from plate. Total plans in the article. The third Magazine is also "Projects in Metal" December 1992 Glenn A. Pettit. This is a different version of the gear box. Total plans in the article. Earl ------- Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2001 11:12:32 -0700 From: "Bob May" Subject: Re: Taper Turning Actually, it isn't that the bed needs to be level but rather that it's not twisted. A twisted bed will produce a taper but a bed that is tilted at 45 deg. and not twisted will not produce that taper. Making the bed level is the simplest way tho of making an attempt at insuring that the bed isn't twisted. I'd check your calculations and settings on the lathe to insure that the taper is correct. I'd also try doing a 0deg. taper (a cylinder) as a reference guidepoint. Bob May http://nav.to/bobmay ------ Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2001 18:18:23 +0000 From: Jon Elson Subject: Re: Taper Turning >> Thanks for the reply. I have the Starrett level you describe. I took the lathe off of the stand and leveled the stand and then put the lathe back on and leveled it. It still is 3 degrees off. Any other suggestions would be appreciated. EA << No, leveling the stand is meaningless. You need to level the BED ways of the lathe, to get both ends parallel. I use a master precision level which brings them to a couple of arc seconds of level. these levels will EASILY detect a hair under one end! But, I doubt that this is your problem. To get a 3 degree error, you'd need a visible twist in the bed. What you need to do is get a large piece of material, and try to face it flat in the chuck, using the compound to move the tool. When you get it so it is flat, and not a convex or concave cone, then, you can scribe the 90 degree mark. Using the compound to cut a cylinder of constant diameter, you can check the mark and make sure it lines up with the zero on the cross slide. If they don't match, then you have some kind of foul up with the markings. If they line up, all other marks should line up, too. For precise tapers, you need to have a master of known correct taper, and fit the master into/onto the part you are making, using bluing dye to check for the accuracy of the fit. When the bluing is transferred for the full length of the taper, then you know that your part correctly duplicates the taper of the master. One thing to beware of on old lathes is that the compound can be worn unevenly, causing it to travel in a curved path. You can't cut any taper with accuracy when the compound is in that kind of shape! Jon ------- Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2001 20:47:35 -0000 From: doogdoogx~xxhawaii.rr.com Subject: Re: Taper Turning In atlas_craftsman, ejohna wrote: > If I set the rest for a 30 degree taper I end up with a 33 degree. I > find that if I set the rest to 0 degrees it is not square with the > chuck. I have to set it a 3 degrees to get it square. Is there an > adjustment to correct this or should I rescibe the line on the rest? Aloha, after doing what all of the other replies suggest I would if possible turn it using the tailstock center to keep it from deflecting and use a sharp bit. Check to see if your gibs are snug and not sloppy. Some of the Atlas, Craftsman use a nylon type of gib and after a while it cracks and creates a loose spot so be sure to check what type of gib you have. I doubt that the markings on the cross slide and compound could be 3 deg's off but it is possible. Hope this helps. Mahalo, Howard ------- Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2001 17:31:43 -0700 From: Frank Evan Perdicaro Subject: Taper issue Your problem could be as simple as the problem on my 10F. Totally worn out everything! Even after I replaced both precision nuts in the compound (one for each screw) I can still move the bit back and forth with my hand, but not an eight of an inch, like before. (No exaggeration there, really that much.) It appears I need to replace all three screws on my lathe too. Most of you would flat-out not believe how worn my lathe is. The screwforms are no longer Acme, or even a typical 60 degree thread form, but a sort of truncated 60 degree thread form. The nuts that engaged the screws were only slightly different than cylinders. ------- Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2001 21:06:20 -0400 From: "EA" Subject: Re: Taper Turning Thanks for the reply.If I install the face plate and take the tool post off, set the rest at 0 degrees and use a good square from the slot for the tool post to the face plate should that be square? This is a new lathe, less that 25 hours. After I leveled the stand then I did level the bed with a Starrett precision level. Both ways are level from the head to the tail and also from one way to the other at both the head & tail. ------- Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2001 06:21:32 +0000 From: Jon Elson Subject: Re: Taper Turning >Thanks for the reply.If I install the face plate and take the tool >post off, set the rest at 0 degrees and use a good square from the >slot for the tool post to the face plate should that be square? EA You need to turn the faceplate to make sure it is truly flat and square to the spindle axis. (Nothing can be trusted until you've checked it!) By turn, I mean using a dial indicator, as we already know there is a problem in the lathe. If the faceplate is running pretty true, then you should verify that the cross slide travels parallel to the faceplate. If the cross slide IS parallel, then you can check the degree marks for the compound, and see if they need adjusting. If the cross slide is not at right angles to the spindle axis, then don't even look at the degree marks, as the problem is below them. ------- Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2001 06:14:42 -0000 From: rweersingx~xxworldnet.att.net Subject: Re: Taper Turning I would check the gibs and if they are Ok I would rescribe the line. I have had to do this with a number of machines and accessories. They probably scribed the line at the factory before the rest was mounted on the machine. Good luck Bob 618 Atlas lathe 10X36 F Atlas lathe(1939) 10X42 D Atlas lathe (1940) U.S. Burk Millrite milling machine (1968) ------- Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2001 04:07:03 -0400 From: "Matthew King" Subject: Re: Best collet choice? + lathe work question [SNIP: COLLET PORTION IS IN "Atlas Collets" FILE] A question for you lathe veterans - I have a Harrison 12x40 lathe that I cannot get a quality finish with, regardless of carbide insert used, HSS toolbit, cemented carbide, rusty nail, etc. (just kidding about the nail!) I've leveled the bed with a Starret machinist's level(80-90 seconds or .005" per foot - not quite a "master precision level (10 second or .0005" per foot) but not $500 either!) I've got an Aloris CXA toolpost. I've meticulously followed the recommended speed and feed charts for all materials cut. The only acceptable finish I've been able to get is in some Nylon, but you can still see "waves". Stainless steel (I know it's contrary but this is AWFUL) is horrendous. It looks "ripped." Carbon steel of various hardness is a bit better, but certainly not acceptable, even at the slowest possible feed rates. Aluminum is relatively smooth but still wavy. I don't believe there's any taper being introduced, just an AWFUL finish. I've tried very large nose radius inserts, very narrow radius inserts, 1/2" wide square cemented toolbits, carefully ground (by an ex-Pratt & Whitney machinist friend) HSS toolbits. We're at a complete loss here. The machine was built in 66 with a period 3phase 3HP dual speed motor that appears quite smooth running. The gear- case is run by dual V-belts that are properly tensioned. All of the visible gears appear in quite good shape and are properly lubed. The gearcase itself is a submerged bath (Mobil Heavy Vactra) system properly filled. The spindle bearing "play" is <.002" from one extreme to the other (using the pipe in chuck, indicator on chuck, lift and shove method). Material can be centered within .0005-.001" in the Pratt three jaw chuck. A dial indicator traversed across a 1 foot piece of material shows ZERO runout from chuck towards tailstock. A slightly notchy live center has been being used and is being replaced just in case, but can't possibly impart this level of roughness. It's just as bad when turning without the tailstock in place. HELP! PLEASE! Any ideas? Thanks, Matt King Columbus, GA no Atlas(yet), but a Harrison! ------- Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 18:04:25 -0000 From: rweersingx~xxworldnet.att.net Subject: Re: Best collet choice? + lathe [HARRISON] work question Hello Matt, I had the same problem with a 6" Atlas lathe. I replaced the crossfeed nut and snugged up all the gibs which helped, but I was still getting a rough finish. About a month later I took the spindle of to replace the belt and noticed the preload on the bearings seemed too loose. Putting the spindle back together with the proper preload on the bearings cured all of the rough finish problems. Hope that helps since you seem to have done everything else. Good luck Bob ------- Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2001 00:35:58 EDT From: CaptonZapx~xxaol.com Subject: The Color Photo Lathe I have a unique lathe that has me intrigued. It is an Atlas head stock and bed, with two carriages with cross slides, no compounds, a lead screw that has a blank section in the center of it, and a rudimentary set of gears to drive the lead screw. It was used for cutting rotogravure plates for printing. The bed is like new, and the cross slides do not show any wear. I assume that once you set the depth of cut, the only motion was along the bed, with the lead screw moving both carriages in unison, the photo pick up looking at the object photo, and the vibrating head cutter doing the engraving. It didn't get much use, judging by the absence of wear marks on the bed. Needless to say, the thing looks like a brand new lathe to me, just short some critical parts. Has anyone seen one like it? And does anybody know where I could find parts for it to turn it into a proper lathe. The most critical part would be a QC gear box and lead screw. A tail stock would be nice, although I have a tail stock off of a Grizzley that could be made to work. Thanks for any help, Jerry Roy ------- Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2001 23:33:04 -0500 From: "M K (Skip)Campbell Jr." Subject: Re: The Color Photo Lathe Jerry, I bought one just like it to upgrade my 101.28990. It is the identical lathe except for the oddessy's you mention. It perfect for upgrading or renewing I should say, the 101.28990 or 28991 or any late model Craftsman/Atlas lathe. I took the quick change and drive gears, lead screw and tail stock, motor and pulleys off my lathe and put them on the photo lathe. I later found a like new lead screw and replaced the well worn one on my lathe (which I still have). My lathe is now in great shape. Skip Campbell ------- Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2001 07:24:06 -0000 From: nathanandannax~xxcs.com Subject: Half Nuts First off, thanks to all who responded to my post on varying thread pitch. I was trying another thread today when I noticed that the half nuts open and close slightly as the carriage oves along. I pulled the carriage off and the half nuts are loose in the bracket that they slide in. When I say loose, I mean at least .030 side to side and up and down. They do not appear to be worn much so I am not sure if this is normal or if I am missing a shim or something. The lathe was a basket case when I got it so it could be missing something. It seems plausible that this could be why I am having inconsistencies with my threads. Thanks again for all the help, Nathan ------- Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2001 09:06:07 -0500 From: "jerdal" Subject: Re: Half Nuts Again, are you sure the leadscrew is straight? also: The pins that close the halfnuts may be loose in the backsides of the nuts, The pins may be worn or wrong size ("an earlier user's "fix"?) the halfnut carrier block may be worn, letting halfnuts tilt etc the rotating plate that the pins ride in may be worn, The rotating plate may be loose on the engagement lever shaft the engagement lever may be not moving far enough (jammed, blocked) The halfnuts may be worn, but so evenly that you don't see it. You may have to try them on the screw separately after disassembly. Also: try closing them with your fingers after the engagement lever has moved as far as it can, then try to move the carriage back and forth. Is it still loose? do they act like they want to spring apart? I have a logan that had very worn halfnuts, and a very loose carrier. I had 1/8 inch total movement, but I could cut a 32 pitch thread OK, as long as I made sure that the carriage was against the screw, by holding it back after engaging the nuts. That took up the backlash. Try it??? That's all that spewed forth from the old brain right now. Jerry ------- Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 18:13:29 -0000 From: sevenish1x~xxyahoo.com Subject: Why does my 12 X 36 chatter? I am new to this group but have many years of machine experience so I am puzzled by a problem I have with my Atlas lathe. I have a primo 12 X 36 that I have extensively refurbished. New belts,headstock bearings, cleaned, oiled, tightened and painted. Looks like new and cuts like crap. I simply cannot get a decent cut no matter what speed, feed, or depth of cut. I have put a dial indicator everywhere and measured for spindle deflection, chuck deflection,tool deflection, barometric pressure and phase of the moon and just I cannot figure out why it cuts so lame. I am using an Aloris type tool holder and have tried both small radius carbide tools and HSS to no avail. The machine always produces a chattered finish except on the very lightest of cuts. Even with the gibs tightened to the max it chatters. Do you folks have any suggestions for what to try? I have operated many lathes over the years but this one has me stumped. I know other people seem to like this machine but at the moment I can't figure out why. Randy Howard ------- Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 22:06:22 -0000 From: doogdoogx~xxhawaii.rr.com Subject: Re: Why does my 12 X 36 chatter? Aloha, I would check the following: 1) If you have the horizontal counter shaft type, check to see if the bolt between the horizontal counter shaft and lathe is adj. properly. 2) Is your lathe bolted down or is it just sitting on the bench. I would bolt it to the bench and bolt the bench to the floor. 3) Do you have the metal gibs or the nylon one. If nylon, I would remove the and check to see if it is cracked or broken. 4) Try moving the carriage by hand while turning a round stock and see if the finish is the same or better. If it is better then that will mostly rule out the compound and carriage. 5) Is your lead screw ok? 6) Check your half-nuts for damage and excessive wear and also the assembly that it attaches to. 7) Check your belt to see that it is not too hard. Sometimes when the lathe is sitting a long time with tension on the belt it takes the form of the pulley and it could cause a little vibration. Hint, release the tension lever when lathe is not in use. Hope this helps, and with the other suggestions that were posted you should find the problem cause. Mahalo, Howard ------- Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 18:25:53 -0500 From: "Koepke, Kevin" Subject: RE: Re: Why does my 12 X 36 chatter? 36 inch is a long bed for the Atlas bed design. Some, including me think it's too long. I have a 618, and have just recently purchased a 10-F x 24. I have some problems with chatter, but with limitations, I am quite pleased with them. Howard's #2 is most likely to be the problem. The more mass it's bolted to, the better. How about a concrete foundation? ------- Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 20:39:48 -0500 From: "jerdal" Subject: Re: Re: Why does my 12 X 36 chatter? Some 110V motors have a devilish vibration which a light lathe (or a heavier one) can transmit to the cutting edge. tends not to change much with turning speed. Might not be your problem if light cuts work OK, but worth a try. Also, there's lots of gibs and other things as well. As you know, if the compound is somehow loose on its little seat, problems occur. Easy to overlook when thinking of gibs. Might be a chip in there? Jerry ------- Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2001 04:12:05 +0000 From: Jon Elson Subject: Re: Why does my 12 X 36 chatter? sevenish1x~xxyahoo.com wrote: > I am new to this group but have many years of machine experience so I > am puzzled by a problem I have with my Atlas lathe. I have a primo > 12 X 36 that I have extensively refurbished. New belts,headstock > bearings, cleaned, oiled, tightened and painted. Looks like new and > cuts like crap. I simply cannot get a decent cut no matter what > speed, feed, or depth of cut. I have put a dial indicator everywhere > and measured for spindle deflection, chuck deflection,tool > deflection, barometric pressure and phase of the moon and just I > cannot figure out why it cuts so lame. I am using an Aloris type tool > holder and have tried both small radius carbide tools and HSS to no > avail. The machine always produces a chattered finish except on the > very lightest of cuts. Even with the gibs tightened to the max it > chatters. Do you folks have any suggestions for what to try? I have > operated many lathes over the years but this one has me stumped. > I know other people seem to like this machine but at the moment I > can't figure out why. Well, I did have chatter problems with my 10" when I got it, but it was a wreck. I now have a 12", and although I can MAKE it chatter, it rarely does, and takes pretty decent cuts. There is something WRONG with your machine. Don't think it is just because all Atlas machines are junk, or something like that. It CAN be cured, and will do a good job after the problem is detected. I assume this is a Timken bearing machine. The one thing you CAN'T do with abandon on lighter machines is take cuts with a WIDE cutting tool (ie. producing a wide chip). That seems to excite the flex in the machine more than anything. I think this is due to flex in the carriage/ compount mounting, which is pretty much the weak link in the Atlas. The Aloris-type toolholder was a great improvement on my 10" Atlas. If you had a lantern-style toolpost, that would have been the first change I would have suggested, but you've already done it. What material are you trying to cut? Some totally unknown scrap from around the shop? That can be the problem. Try some mild steel or aluminum alloy first. Keep the speed high (120 FPM for steel, 500 FPM for aluminum is a good place to start) and the infeed pressure moderate. Make sure the cutting tool is level with the center of the spindle. Make sure the flank of the tool is not rubbing on the work. This can happen if not enough front or side relief has been put on the cutter. Don't try to cut too far from the chuck without supporting the work with a tailstock center. One other problem that I had was 'bellmouthing' of the chuck jaws. When short pieces are gripped in the jaws a lot, the tips of the jaws suffer more. wear, and the jaws will only grip long pieces in the back of the chuck. With the chuck slightly snugged up, see if you can wiggle a rod in the chuck. If so, the jaw tips are not gripping the work. This will make easy work very difficult and frustrating. The fix is to use whatever grinding equipment you can come up with to get a small grinding wheel inside the chuck. You need a wheel that will fit inside the hole in the chuck, so you can grind the jaws all the way back. What you do is install the Dremel, air die grinder, toolpost grinder, electric drill or whatever you've got to the toolpost, at approximately the center height of the spindle. Use chewing gum, rubber bands, putty, or whatever to pull the chuck jaws outward, so they ride the same side of the scroll as when they are gripping a bar. Adjust the jaws so they are somewhat smaller than the center hole. Set the chuck turning very slowly, with the feed screw running on a fine feed setting. Advance the grinding wheel into the chuck with the carriage carefully, and then bring the grinder out with the crossfeed until the wheel just touches the jaws. Engage the power feed, and let the grinder slowly work inward. If the bellmouthing is severe, you may have to start at the back (where there's more metal) and work outwards. I actually do this with the chuck stopped, and make the preliminary roughing passes manually, until the jaws are pretty much trued up, then finish with one power-fed pass.This saves time, as the wheel hardly ever touches the jaws when the chuck is turning - you're mostly cutting air. You'd be amazed at what a difference a set of trued-up jaws will make on a worn lathe chuck. It is a good idea to cover the ways with aluminum foil, rags, paper towels or whatever, to keep the grinding grit out of the carriage. A couple places to look on the Atlas lathe for looseness are the swivel joint where the compound sits on the cross slide, and the gibs hidden on the underside of the carriage. These really shouldn't be a problem for normal cutting, but can cause major crashes when using cutoff tools or heavy threading in steel. You can check them by trying to lift straight up on the front and rear of the carriage.It should be constrained to within .001" or so. One last possibility (you say you've already checked) is looseness of the chuck mounting at the spindle thread. A poorly-cut thread could be loose enough to allow the chuck to wobble under cutting forces. One way to check is to loosen the chuck from the spindle about 1/4 turn, and try to rock it on the thread. A little looseness is normal, but if it really rocks a lot, then the thread may be too loose. it might only allow the chuck to shift under cutting loads, and so a manual test with a dial indicator might not show the problem. The test I use is to put a one foot bar (1 " or more diameter) in the chuck, and put a dial indicator on the back of the chuck body. Lift up with about 50 lbs force at the end of the bar. The chuck body should not rise up by more than .001". Now, you have to take some care in how you mount the dial indicator, or you will measure bed flex rather than spindle stiffness with this. So, mounting the dial indicator on the compound would be misleading. You want to mount it to the headstock casting if possible, otherwise to the bed as close to the headstock as possible. There is a fairly elaborate bearing preload scheme, which requires running the lathe at high speed for 8 hours to heat the spindle, and then the bearing preload is set. I do it by observing the above mentioned measurement and increasing preload in small increments until the spindle is well constrained. That seems to work fine. Jon ------- Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2001 16:04:10 -0000 From: gppainex~xxtir.com Subject: Re: Why does my 12 X 36 chatter? John provided a lot of good information, and it is likely that checking the chuck to spindle play will pick up these conditions, but I'd like to point to a couple more areas I've seen cause chatter trouble in a friend's 12 x 36. One was the bolts holding the headstock to the bed were not tight and would allow the headstock to move under load. The other was loose screws that hold the chuck together that let the front half of the chuck move with respect to the backplate. Can't say how all that got loose, but snugging things up made a major improvement in quality of cut. Good luck, Gary ------- Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2001 16:58:23 +0000 From: Jon Elson Subject: Re: Re: Why does my 12 X 36 chatter? > I'd like to point to a couple more areas I've seen cause chatter > trouble in a friend's 12 x 36. One was the bolts holding the > headstock to the bed were not tight and would allow the headstock to > move under load. The other was loose screws that hold the chuck > together that let the front half of the chuck move with respect to the > backplate. Can't say how all that got loose, but snugging things up > made a major improvement in quality of cut. Either of these two conditions can also be caused by little bits of grit, paint flakes, etc. that get between finely machined surfaces that need to fit precisely. Jon ------ Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2001 16:36:25 From: "robert B" Subject: Re: Why does my 12 X 36 chatter? I'm by far not the expert here, but I've had problems with chatter to. Mostly when turning between centers, with the chatter marks on the headstock end. All I could take were very light cuts. Problem was, a belt was slipping. ------- Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2001 10:34:10 -0700 From: Frank Evan Perdicaro Subject: Re: Why does my 12 X 36 chatter? Having replaced lots of parts on my 10F, I still get chatter. On my lathe, one of the culprits is the compound screw mount. Not the nut, and not the threaded part of the compound screw, but the part nearest the handle. If the mount is worn, the top-most part of the compound can move even if there is zero backlash on the screw. Solution? New compound screw assembly. Has anybody ever tried adding mass to the bed? It seems to me one could disassemble the lathe, turn it upside down and fill the underside with a mix of castable urethane and lead shot. First clean everything, then lay in a piece of 1/2" styrofoam. Then mix up the lead/urethane mix and fill the inverted bed right up. When the mix is set, flip it back over and remove the styrofoam with a gasoline rinse. The gap between the top of the filler and bottom of the bed should be enough to let the tailstock operate correctly. This mix would kill chatter and would probably weigh 100 lbs. [NOTE: BAGS OF SAND STRATEGICALLY PLACED ON THE LATHE STAND WILL DO WONDERS -- CHEAPLY.] ------- Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 13:47:23 -0700 From: "GuyW" Subject: Re: Re: ...chatter? LONG Hi group...since I've been collecting info on chatter (as result of my interest in building the Gingery lathe, among other reasons), so I'll post it here SOME IDEAS ON SOURCES OF AND SOLUTIONS TO, LATHE CHATTER The following concepts (which I ripped off the Chaski board) don't affect the Gingery patterns and castings, but your ultimate assembly of and happiness with the lathe. Basic ideas on preventing chatter are apparently to create rotating "smoothness" in the basic lathe, and never to allow vibration or roughness to develop (duh, Guy!). I see this affecting our pulleys (straight & concentric enuff?), belts (some real junk out there) (V, round, flat or ??) and how cheap / loose the motor is.the idea of an intervening power shaft, clutch, and flywheel to isolate power surges seems very good, however, I lean toward a smaller type of lineshaft as compared to a huge old overhead system - perhaps a scaled-up watchmakers-lathe-type of lineshaft. -Guy- ------- Hi, I am new to the world of metal working and I could use some advice. I had a 1922 Dalton Six metal lathe follow me home. It has been in storage for the last 25-30 years and it appears to be in good condition and well equipped with tooling. It needs a good cleaning, and lubrication as well as having the flat leather drive belt replaced. What types of oil should I use on this machine, and where should I use it? How do I go about replacing the leather drive belt, and how or where do I get a replacement? Are there any good books on machine tool restoration, and repair? Where might I find any manuals or information on this lathe? Any and all help greatly appreciated. Thanks, Greg Fosmark Duvall, WA ANSWER 1: hi, greg, the dalton is a really nice little machine, and will do good work once you have it dialed in. there's a "secret"...for getting good work from light machines....not really very secret, tho, cos the war production board put out a pamphlet about this technique back, during the war when every machine in the country was expected to work three shifts, 24hrs a day. this "secret" is in the mounting......make up forms, and pour a heavy cement base for the lathe, somewhat like an elongated truncated pyramid, with a clearance area for the operator's feet. arrange a three point mounting for the lathe, and bolt the lathe down firmly with cement anchor bolts......the sheer mass/weight of the cement base adds rigidity and damps out vibration.....after stripping the forms away, when the concrete has fully cured...pry the concrete base up from the floor, just enough to fit three dense rubber pads under it....three point mounting again. the magnitude of difference this makes with a light lathe in the south bend/logan class has to be seen to be appreciated. mount the motor and countershaft either above or behind the lathe, on wall uprights or ceiling joists....making a small lathe "self-contained" may look pretty, but is a bad idea, cause any little bit of vibration or resonances in the motor or c'shaft will be transmitted to the lathe bed....and the idea of the heavy base is to isolate the lathe from external influences, as well as to enhance rigidity. if you can find a light c'shaft clutch assembly, bush it nicely, make a hardwood sleeve to increase the diameter of the pulley face of the clutch, and use a small pulley on motor for single reduction.....bring the lever for the clutch down to a convenient point over the lathe. the difference in convenience in having the motor run constant speed whilst you start/stop the spindle with a clutch, as compared to having to start/stop the rotating mass of the motor, may well be only a minor convenience, but its well worth doing. belting is straightforward.....since you're out in duvall, you'll have a seattle phone book.....look in the yellow pages under "belting" or "power transmission".....best is to learn to "skive", that is, form tapered ends, and glue up leather belts....all belts stretch, and will need to be shortened from time to time.....or...have the supplier cut you a roll of a suitable width of light "oil-proof" cotton/rubber belting, get a "clipper vise lacer" (i've seen those come up cheaply on ebay) and run metal laced belts...... oil is straightforward....just get a gallon of any good make of spindle oil.....i prefer "vactra" myself. getting the lathe set up....cleaning, oiling, adjusting bearings if needs be, deburring/flaking/adjusting gibs, etc., is really easy on a small machine like the dalton.....its been too many years since i've even seen a dalton for me to remember anything about them.....i think i remember then as having bronze on spindle, and split caps....unless the spindle has been run dry, your chances are very good you'll not have to do much work on the spindle and its bearings.... well, there's a start....good luck....... : ) cheers carla ANSWER 2: Carla's post was right on the money, as usual. I'll share a little of my experiences with you, as well. Years ago I knew a fellow in his 80's who had both an impressive collection of old engines and a reputation as a first class machinist. He and I became pretty close friends and he became a sort of mentor to me. When I began putting together my own shop, he helped me set up all the machinery and gave me the line shafting. Now, today a lot of guys will scoff at a bunch of pulleys and shafting lurking over your head but believe me, I wouldn't have it any other way. My first lathe was a sebastian and it had an adapter on it to support the cone pulley and the motor. It worked but I couldn't get a nice finish. Bill told me to get the shaft hung from the ceiling and bolt the motor to the floor and try it. The difference was amazing. Most of the motors we have available to us are not balanced nearly as well as we think and, if it is fixed rigid to the lathe, the vibration carries through to the machine and makes itself known to you as a fine chatter. I have run machinery with the motor bolted to the wall, and to the rafters, and both of those locations were noisy, the hum of the motor is a 60 cycle vibration and the building simply begins to resonate at that frequency. Most annoying. The concrete floor does a wonderful job of dampening the vibrations. Hang your countershaft and your lineshaft, you will belt your motor to the lineshaft and run a straight belt and a twisted belt to the countershaft clutch pulleys. Drive the lineshaft at 250 rpm (pretty much a standard for small lineshafts). If you have an induction repulsion motor, they are the best, they have high starting torque and start smoother than capacitor motors. Very few machine tools had capacitor start motors on them, they start with a jerk and tend to vibrate more. If you can get single ply leather belting, use it over canvas/rubber. The oil that invariably gets on the belts will turn the canvas/rubber belting into a gooey mess in 10 years. A single ply belt, about 3/32 thick and 1/4 narrower than your pulleys will transmit all the power you need. If the belt is too thick, it takes more tension to make it drive and is hard on the bearings all the way around. It is the friction of the belt against the pulley that drives, so a supple belt can conform to the pulley and do the work without pulling it real tight. I lace all my belts with rawhide shoelaces. This is easy to learn if you buy the Robert Smith books "Advanced Machine Work" and "Elements of Machine Work" from Lindsay. Metal laces slip and wear the pulleys. Rawhide laced belts can be lumpy if not done right and this too can set up a vibration. Cemented belts are wonderful but they are a pain to shorten when they stretch. It is advisable to slack the belts, if possible, when the machine is going to be idle for a period of time to limit the amount they stretch. I also have a 10" Logan and a 9" southbend and I have run both of them from a lineshaft for several years with good results. I wish I could run my B'port from it as well. The darn v-belt drive is a source of irritation, a new belt will run smooth for a few months and then get lumpy and start to vibrate. Maybe this is why Southbend stayed with flat belts on their lathes until relatively recently. Good luck with your machine, and if it seems like a lot of work to set up the drive arrangement, it is but you get out of it what you put in. Interesting post #1 I ripped off the Chaski board (I steal all my best ideas!) for application to Gingery machines: "What I did notice was that the Taig has an extrusion body filled with what looks like cement. On top, is a dovetail steel bed much like that of hardinge. Martin of Germany builds 30,000 dollar table saws with a cement filled steel sandwich structure. This structure absorbs 6 times as much vibration as pure cast iron and cast iron absorbs 10 times as much as rolled steel and aluminum. So I know the Taig will excel here." Posted by emchd on December 17, 00 at 20:34:42 Interesting post #2 Posted by Forrest Addy on December 27, 00 at 05:15:45: This is an edited version of my postings to Jack Erskine several screens down that some of you may find helpful. Jack wrote of a finish problem similar to chatter that he had that he could not solve despite Herculean trouble shooting and remedies where he practically rebuilt his headstock all to no avail. *********** Those of you who have bought small Asian built lathes equipped with single phase motors or if you converted a three phase machine to single phase by replacing the motor with a single phase unit, you may have encountered a finish problem. If the feed marks are closely examined they seem to resemble the grooves in an old fashioned record, that is they may have varying depth or an irregular appearance much like chatter. Extreme cases may look like hell. It's sometime difficult to distinguish this problem from another -- tool chatter. If the finish problems cannot be eliminated by the usual chatter remdedies, you might be coping with vibration "phonographing" the finish. The problem may be caused by a torsional vibration in the single phase motor, sometimes called "cogging." The armature of a motor is tightly gripped by the magnetic fields that cause it to rotate. A single phase motor acts something like a single cylinder engine where the power pulses may be several times the average torque of the full revolution. This pulse is transmitted by the belt to the spindle and the opposing torque transmitted by the motor stator to the machine. The consequent vibrations may meet where the tool contacts the work, recording itself on the finish like on a phonograph record. Here's a trouble shooting method: Slack the belts so they will barely drive the lathe while it's in a light cut. If possible, isolate the motor by slacking off the mounting bolts and slipping hose washers between the motor base and the mount and between the bolt head and whatever it bears against. Tighten the bolts just enough to hold the motor in position. The object is to inject as much compliance and damping as possible in what is usually a fairly rigid drive. If things wobble around a little it's OK. That's our plan. Take a couple of trial cuts and see if there's a significant improvement in the finish quality. This suggestion is intended to support diagnosis not a fix. If the pattern disappeared when the machine was practically de-coupled from the motor, that indicates the problem is definitely motor, not belts or tool chatter. The only solutions are to either to de-couple the motor via rubber motor mounts or procure a new motor smoother in operating characteristics. Often, there is something about in a lathe/bench assembly that propagates motor vibration. You might try placing sandbags here and there on your lathe bench or motor mount. Inert weight like sand or pea gravel blots vibration to an amazing degree. If sandbags cure the problem, chances are the bench or whatever need stiffening or reinforcement at those points. If your checkbook can stand it, a new motor might be the best solution because you can upgrade in power at the same time -- that is if your electrical system can stand the extra load. The best solution is naturally expensive: either a DC motor and solid state drive or a 3 phase motor preferably with a solid state drive if not a rotary converter. I also suggest a softer acting V-belt known as "Link Belt." This is a V-belt comprised of interlocked rubber/fabric links. Links can be added or removed to secure the desired length. Their principal advantage is their forgiving nature and vibration mitigation. Another big advantage is you won't have to dismantle your spindle to replace the V-belt, just cut the old belt off and link together the new belt. Needless to say, the smoother the drive the better. when I bought my lathe new in 1971, it came direct driven by a 3 phase motor but I replaced the motor with a 5 HP single phase to suit my power. I had the same perplexing "phonographing" problem. I solved it after a fashion by relocating the motor from the machine to the floor nearby using a V-belt drive. I got good productivity and good finishes but naturally it wasn't as smooth as a Monarch 1760, one of the last and best engine lathes built in the UScosting $75,000. A few years ago, I upgraded my lathe motor to 10 HP 3 Phase with a variable frequency drive. The motor happened to be precision balanced but I don't think that was a factor in performance improvement. It made an incredible difference not to have the 60 Hz torsional impulse or cogging. Where I used to see faint ripples in a cold drink set on the headstock, the machine now runs dead smooth. Where the gear noise used to be annoying, it's now a smooth musical whir. If anything, I now get better finishes with my machine than on the Monarch, thanks to a smooth drive free from torque impulse and vibration. A cautionary note. A 3 phase motor running on a static converter still develops significant torsional vibration and 2/3 rated HP. It will run smoother on a rotary converter and develop full HP. Therefore I suggest if you wish to change out single phase motors you obtain two three phase motors. One to run your lathe and another the next nominal HP larger from which to build a phase converter. I'd really like to suggest a variable speed drive but that might be too expensive for most people. I'm sure your own creativity will solve your vibration problem. I suggest using found materials where possible. Perhaps a small automotive engine mount or suspension component. Here in blubbery USA there's a large traffic in exercise machines. Naturally, they are seldom used and may be bought cheap at yard sales. They have smooth running 1 HP DC motors with a cheap variable speed drive that might be suited if your lathe is used exclusively for light work or Interesting post #3 Posted by Joe Fangohr on January 25, 01 at 21:30:07: On another subject, I read often of different methods to reduce vibration in machine tools. I have a bench mill, and it vibrated something awful. The first thing I did was check the motor shaft for runout. Mine was reading about .004 tir. I pulled the offending thing out, put it in my arbor press and tweaked it straight, or actually got it running about .001 tir. This helped some but it still had what seemed like way too much vibration. Another thing I noticed that was causing the vibration was the v-belts. They would just flop all over the place when the mill was running. Some of this was probably caused by the pulleys being poorly made, but most I think by the v-belts wedging themselves in their grooves and then getting pulled out of them each revolution. So I chucked the whole lot, v-belts and pulleys, and made me some poly-v step pulleys out of cast iron. If you are not familiar with these they are the flat belts commonly used on cars these days that look like flat belts but have a number of tiny v grooves. The difference is unbelievable in how much smoother my bench mill runs now, and quieter too. I wouldn't say that it now cuts like a turret mill or anything like that but it sure doesn't vibrate so much. I also did this to our tablesaw at work, it's a contractor saw since we have to be mobile, and before if I put something like a wrench on the saw table while it was running the wrench would quickly make its way right off the side from the vibrations, and now you can hardly even feel any vibration with your hand! IT definitely cuts much smoother than I ever dreamed it was capable of doing. I think that the poly-v belts give the smoothness of flat belts and the gripping power of v-belts, kinda the best of both worlds. Didn't have anything to do so thought I'd ramble a bit, you all have a nice day! Joe Interesting post #4 Posted by Joe on May 08, 01 at 07:55:09: ...wooden pulleys on the lathe headstock have a lot to recommend them, not the least of which is the fact that the coefficient of friction of leather to wood is greater than leather to cast iron or more particularly steel. An 1850's era woodworking lathe that I own had been converted to a v belt drive, seemingly by putting a wooden "disk" in place of the original pulley and then turning the disk so that it had a groove for the belt to ride in. It took me a few minutes and a bit of keen observation to see that the wooden pulley was original construction and had been considerably larger and longer and had probably 75 percent of it removed in the adaptation. Someone *really* wanted the lathe adapted to electric motor drive. In fact on this lathe the smallest diameter of the cone pulley was actually cast iron and "made" right to the headstock shaft and served with wood screws to hold the wood portion of the pulley in place. With some creative intuition I was able to "reconstruct" the original wooden pulley from laminated maple. This takes some time but a bandsaw helps as does choosing your step thicknesses to be some multiple of 3/4 inch. The other factor to think of is the pulley in the countershaft has to "match" the pulley in the headstock. Otherwise, it's possible to have the belt tight on one step and yet be loose on another. (Match is "approximate" since the leather belts will stretch a bit - within 1/2" is likely close enough.) You may want to consult the formulas in "Machinery's Handbook" which take into account the distance between the two shafts also. Another good reason for making at least one of the two pulleys from maple. The usual practice (my 1850's lathe notwithstanding) was to have the pulley in the overhead drive made of wood and the pulley on the headstock of the lathe made of iron. The reason for this was to have any slippage that occured in the leather belt visible on the pulley nearest to the operator. Hopefully the operator would thus be more attentive to the belt tightness and more inclined to keep his machine "up to snuff." It was also recommended by Machinery's Handbook that the pulley diameters chosen result in a "logarithmic" ratio between the different speeds. However, I have examined most of my early flat belt drive machine tools for this and found it to be a "late" convention. Most 19th century machines do not incorporate this. Usually the iron pulley on the lathe was machined inside and out and even balanced if necessary with a small weight. Anything to make the lathe easier turning without vibration. To tell you the truth, I actually have in my barn the two pulleys you need from a Royersford 21" upright post drill press. However, it's a long way from New Hampshire to Tactical Link and likely you'd be better off financially to try to get your pulleys locally. The $50 shipping fee plus the $20 I would probably want for the pulleys will likely buy you enough maple to make the two pulleys twice over, or purchase an entire scrap drill press from a junkyard locally. Anyway, hope this all helps. Best regards, Joe K in NH aka "Yankee Mechanic" ________ Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2001 03:49:24 -0500 From: "Randy" Subject: Re: Re: Why does my 12 X 36 chatter? Group: If you have ever watch brake drums being turned they are usually wrapped with a thick leather or rubber belt to remove the harmonic vibrations to stop the chatter marks. On disc brakes we always used a thin spring steel strap with lead weights attached to do the same thing. I believe that like John Meacham says anything to add a dampening force will help. Randy Pedersen ------- Date: Sun, 02 Sep 2001 19:46:27 +0000 From: Jon Elson Subject: Re: Problem with adjustments larry ice wrote: > Morning fellow Atlas owners > I have a problem with my 10" Atlas lathe I. certain many of you might > provide some info on. My 10" lathe appeared almost new when I bought it > last year and usually I am well satisified with the performance. Last > night however, I was turning an aluminum spacer for a Hudson straight > eight motor and I had a problem with chatter. I solved that with the > info on the chatter thread but later found the compound rest had > loosened to the point that I could detect serious movement. The power > cross feed appears ok but the tool post holder feed is really loose. > Perviously I had taken it off and cleaned everything before reassy. It > worked fine til now. I did have trouble adjusting the small acme thread > screw with the lock nut and handle to remove any slack although I > thought I had done the adjustment correctly. Guess not as this movement > has now returned and I wanted to get some advice before readjusting it. > I would appreciate any help from your experience. Iceman i used to have a 10" Atlas, and the compound was really the weak link on that lathe. There just isn't enough metal on it. The swivel base is usually OK, but you might pull it off and see if any swarf has worked under it. It has a longer lever arm from the tool tip, so if anything gets under it, it can rock easily. The dovetail slide is awfully small, and if the sides of the slide don't mate well over a good length, then the whole thing is sloppy. There isn't much to do but rescrape it! If the dovetail is loose enough that leadscrew backlash is causing trouble, then you need to tighten the gib screws. Because of the weakness of the slide, I kept the compound gib screws very tight most of the time. Anyway, slack in the leadscrew handles is not a serious problem. The wedging action of the lock nuts eventually work them loose, so you have to readjust every once in a while. You can't get all backlash out, as some is in the Acme nut, too. If you use the lantern-style toolpost, there is a shoulder screw in the bottom of the toolpost body that holds it to the T-plate. This screw can get loose, or the shoulder can wear, or the screw can pull apart. I used to tighten down the toolpost on my 10" that I broke this screw. I realized it was going, and was able to get it to hold together just long enough to make a new screw. I later replaced the whole toolpost with a dovetail quick-change toolpost. I will never go back! That was the singlemost important upgrade I did. It made an enormous improvement in stiffness of the lathe, as well as saving a great deal of time in setting tool height. One other Atlas trouble area is the gibs hidden UNDER the carriage, that keep the carriage from lifting up off the bed. This is usually only a problem when using a cutoff tool, where the infeed force is very high. There are laminated shims that set the height of the gib plate. If there is much looseness, you can peel a shim off. I use aluminum foil as a finer shim adjustment. Jon ------- Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2001 10:24:49 -0400 From: "William K. Macy" Subject: Re: Problem with adjustments I am finding this chatter thread most helpful as my Atlas/Craftsman 12in suffewrs from the same problem when using a cut off tool. The cross feed play is minimal, but the front of the carriage has noticeable vertical play. I think this is the problem for me using the lantern-type tool holder. On regular cuts chatter is not a problem. THE problem: how do I deetach the carriaaage apron from the carriage itself to get at the laminated shims you referred to? I do not have a complete manual, only an exploded diagram for a 10 in lathe. The apron seems to be held on to the carriage by a gear assembly about half way from the ends. Rather than removing every screw and/or bolt, I thought I'd stop now and seek assistance! Many thanks in advance, Regards, Bill ------- Date: Mon, 03 Sep 2001 17:44:18 +0000 From: Jon Elson Subject: Re: Problem with adjustments "William K. Macy" wrote: > I am finding this chatter thread most helpful as my Atlas/Craftsman > 12in suffewrs from the same problem when using a cut off tool. The > cross feed play is minimal, but the front of the carriage has > noticeable vertical play. I think this is the problem for me using > the lantern-type tool holder. On regular cuts chatter is not a > problem. THE problem: how do I deetach the carriaaage apron from the > carriage itself to get at the laminated shims you referred to? There are 2 very large phillips screws on the top of the carriage that hold the apron on. You have to remove the leadscrew first, and I think there is something else that interferes, but maybe not. if you have access to the back of the lathe, you don't need to take the apron off. When taking the apron off, there are two dowel pins that assure alignment. On some lathes, they can fall out and get lost, so see if they are loose and store them if they threaten to come out. > I do not have a complete manual, only an exploded diagram for a 10 in > lathe. The apron seems to be held on to the carriage by a gear > assembly about half way from the ends. Rather than removing every > screw and/or bolt, I thought I'd stop now and seek assistance! Right, this is the power crossfeed pickoff, and the leadscrew goes through it. Just remove the right end leadscrew bracket and slide the screw out through the apron. It is keyed on the left end. When using a standard cutoff tool, it is the BACK of the carriage that tends to lift, from the reaction to the infeed force. but, looseness at either the front or back gib should be fixed. There are steel (iron?) plates with two screws held to the bottom of the carriage. There are laminated shims behind these plates. be careful when reassembling as the screws can pinch the shim, making it accordion pleated! If removing one lamination is too much, you can add back about .0015" or so with kitchen aluminum foil. If your bed has any measurable wear, be sure to check the fit of these gibs at the tailstock end, as they will bind up at the least worn part of the bed. Jon ------- Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2001 13:33:40 -0000 From: rweersingx~xxworldnet.att.net Subject: Re: Problem with adjustments Hello Bill: The laminated shims are under the steel plates under the carriage and there is no need to take the apron off of the carriage. Take the tailstock and leadscrew off and slide the carriage assembly off of the right end of the lathe. Hope that helps Bob ------- Date: Sat, 8 Sep 2001 23:09:15 EDT From: sleykinx~xxaol.com Subject: Re: crossfeed nut zr1zr1x~xxnetzero.net writes: > I have read about a fix that cuts the nut and repositions the two > pieces, might try that myself. However I wonder how hard it would be > to make the crossfeed nut myself out of a piece of brass/bronze? It > appears that the thread is a special type and may be harder to do > than the standard 60 degree V style threads. Has anyone fabricated or > purchased a crossfeed nut/shaft lately, did you use a specific > variety of material for the crossfeed nut? There are several flavors of crossfeed nuts for the 12" Atlas lathes. The newer heavier crossslide nut has enough space on top that you can cut a slot with a hacksaw close to one end and add a caphead screw to pull the pieces closer together. A new nut would certainly be the best way .. as long as you get the right one. the two types I know of have the same thread but one is taller than the other. Regards Glenn Neff Medford, OR ------- Date: Sun, 9 Sep 2001 04:45:25 EDT From: BillHunleyx~xxaol.com Subject: Re: crossfeed nut Rick W -- If you make a new crossfeed nut for your lathe, you had best look at replacing the screw also. The nut seldom wears out without serious wear on the screw. A bad screw will quickly ruin your new nut. Bill Hunley ------- Date: Sun, 9 Sep 2001 06:46:41 -0400 From: "Wayne" Subject: Re: crossfeed nut I have done this to one of my 12" a/c lathe cross feed nuts. The procedure is to cut the nut,put the two pieces back on the screw, make them snug to each other,then drill and pin the two pieces back together. I'm pretty sure the list member is the one with the steam engine powered a/c 12" ;>o (Ron T) Wayne(rice)Burner ------- Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2001 05:16:15 +0000 From: Jon Elson Subject: Re: Craftsman 12" Bed Twist david.kuechenmeisterx~xxatl.viasat.com wrote: > I'm trying to remove the twist from my lathe bed. The lathe is old > enough to only have 3 mounting points. That seems to limit my means > of straightening the bed. If I go through the steps that I followed, > maybe someone can point out an error or make a suggestion that would > solve this problem. > > I have a wood platform of 4x4s bolted together and supported very > well by a heavy angle iron frame. I planed the 4x4s level and put an > oak stair tread on top for extra support. Then I was ready to mount > the lathe. > > After I read through a bunch of posts about levelling or > straightening a lathe bed, the only case that seemed to apply to my > situation was to bolt down the headstock, lightly tighten the > tailstock and see how true the bed was. I borrowed a precision > machinist level from work, leveled the headstock end as well as the > longitudinal axis of the bed with the levelling mounts on my stand. > I moved the level to the tailstock end and sure enough, the bed was > twisted. > > I put a couple shims under the back side of the level and that > brought the bubble to the center, so I figured that would be a good > amount of shimming to start with. I unbolted the lathe and put the > shims under the low side of the tailstock. Then I tightened up the > bolts rechecked the headstock and long axis, then checked the > tailstock. Of course the bed was still out of true by the same amount > that it had been before. That one bolt on the tailstock just won't > apply any torque to the bed. In fact, on the front side of the lathe, > I could put a couple shims between the foot and my stand. > > Not to be discouraged, I thought that with two bolts on the > headstock end I could remove the twist there. So, I undid everything, > removed the shims and bolted down the lathe. I levelled the tailstock > and long axis of the lathe with the levelling mounts and checked the > headstock end. Of course it was twisted. I noted which side was low > and put some shims under that bolt. Then I tightened everything up > expecting to see some improvement. > > It wasn't to be. In fact, after I rechecked the tailstock level > and looked at the headstock, I seemed to have increased the twist in > the bed. The level was showing that the low side, front, was even > lower than before. I made sure the rear bolt was tightened, it was. > > So about now I am pretty confused. If I was looking at a pretty > small amount of twist, I'd just let it go. This is about two lines > worth on the level, so it's pretty substantinal. No, it isn't, assuming we're talking about a master precision level. 2 major divisions is less than one sheet of typing paper on one end of the bed. (The bed is narrower than the level, so it magnifies shims between level and bed.) The most obvious thing to do is to attach some sort of frame to the tailstock end, so you can use shims and 2 bolts to torque the bed. This may be pretty difficult to do, however. The other obvious thing is to untwist the bed by force, but this is a pretty tricky operation. For the amount of twist, I think I'd try it, but very carefully. Is there any possibility that a burr or wear on the bed has made these readings show up like this? You might try the level at a number of points along the bed, and see if the twist is gradual all along the bed, or fairly localized. This would be important to know. If the twist is due to a crash, and is in one region only, then all attempts to untwist it, either by momentary force or steady load, will only be able to minimize it at best. You'd end up with waves and bumps along the bed. One trick is to run the crossslide off the back of the carriage and let the level ride the carriage up and down the bed. This is a pretty quick way to see how the tool will actually 'ride' along the workpiece. Anyway, once you know the characteristics of the twist a bit better, you might have a better idea what tricks will work to restore it, and what won't help much. I would be surprised if you could not overpower the twist temporarily with your bare hands. If the twist is gradual from end to end, I think you could probably untwist it by gently prying with a piece of 2 x 4 between the ways. You could probably put the level on the tailstock, and apply enough force to deflect it as far the opposite way as it goes in the rest condition, then check for any change at rest. Gradually increase the deflection until it starts to untwist. Leave it overnight and then check again. Note to all the flamers: I recommend this ONLY because we are talking about a twist of ARC SECONDS here, over the length of a lathe bed. If you could see this deflection easily, you would be getting into dangerous territory for cast iron. One other note for the Atlas/Craftsman type lathes. The drive belts apply a substantial load to a light lathe. Later "horizontal" countershaft machines have a bolt that is threaded in the countershaft bracket such that the head touches the headstock. By carefully adjusting that bolt, you can minimize the change in bed twist due to belt tension changes. The idea is all torque is carried by that bolt, not through the table and the bed's feet at the headstock end. Jon ------- Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2001 04:39:05 +0000 From: Jon Elson Subject: Re: Why does my 12 X 36 chatter? Ronald Thibault wrote: > > --------", and I can take 0.50" depth cuts with. > > It may be the steel you're using."----- > > Ron, Do you really mean 0.50" ? You must be using a very small > > longitudinal feed....or did you mean .050"?...or have you > > powered your lathe with one of your steam locomotives!?!? Well, this may be the problem. I can take a .200" cut in Teflon, but rarely take even a .050" cut in Aluminum. Sometimes I can do that, but it often leads to more trouble than I want to deal with. I usually rough at .030" in aluminum, and maybe when the setup is stiff and the material is free-machining, .020" or so in steels. Many of the things I turn are not conducive to good turning, so I may shy away from heavier cuts more due to workpiece conditions than machine conditions. But, I find on the lighter lathes you get a lot more done without prob- lems if you take rather rapid feeds with modest depth of cut. So, for a free-machining steel, I might use .020" depth of cut with a .050" feed per turn. With aluminum, I can sometimes do .030" DOC with a feed of .063" (16 TPI setting on QC) or something like that. The fast feed with modest DOC gives the best resistance to vibration buildup. Taking a deep cut, or using a cutting tool that makes a wide chip, combined with a slow feedrate is the perfect condition for vibration to build up. Each turn leaves chatter marks on the part, and the next turn, the machine vibrates in response to the chatter marks. the vibration can build to enormous magnitude quite suddenly, and the part will be ripped out of the chuck jaws or the tool will break. The worst thing is when the vibration causes the crossfeed screw to start increasing DOC. A tool with a fairly sharp point, or smaller radius, is best. Very large radius tools make those wide chips that cause trouble. Also, adjusting the tool to cut on a wide flank of the edge causes the same trouble. Jon ------- Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2001 00:35:22 -0500 From: "jerdal" Subject: Re: Why does my 12 X 36 chatter? sleykinx~xxaol.com wrote: >>> Ok .. I have to ask. Ron, are you talking.050 on the diameter or actual .050 infeed? If you are infeeding .050 and getting clean cuts without stalling the lathe I would like some enlightenment as to what tools, feeds and speeds you found that will do that. .025 infeed is about the best I can get without stalling the 1/2 hp motor on my 12". I use carbide and so am turning fairly fast but the feed rate is as slow as the QC will go.<<< > > It may be possible to get clean results with this configuration, > but it is not very likely. It is MUCH better to use less Depth of > Cut, and increase feed greatly when roughing. The only time > I use the slowest fine feed is for a fine finish cut. Sometimes I > even add in some change gears to get a slower feed when making > bearing-like parts. Jon Elson I gotta throw this in: tool grinding has a lot to do with it also. If you grind your tool to slice off the chips, as in putting a trough in the tool with one side forming the cutting edge, you can take what appears to be a huge depth of cut, and never chatter. Chips are sliced off, and slide around and out of the trough in a nice spiral. Chatter comes when there is a way for the tool to back away from the work and lessen the load so it snaps back. This then repeats. A typical low rake grind will have a substantial vector radially away from the work center, and so will force the tool away and lessen the load, then snap back. A higher rake will reduce this. With some materials, like Aluminum, this might not be a good idea, but it may work great on others. The high rake rotates the vectors so that there are fewer ways for the tool to move and reduce the forces significantly. This kills the chatter mechanism. I have had very successful results with this, increasing the depth of cut to as much as my motor could stand without stalling at that feed. If I recall, this was up to 0.125 depth of cut in steel, there are chips that wide in my chip barrel. Feed had to be low, sometimes very low, or it would stall. Of course, your results may differ, and my work was on a 10" flat belt Logan. Jerry ------- Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2001 21:43:56 -0000 From: michaelhenryx~xxmsn.com Subject: Re: Bearings --- In atlas_craftsmanx~xxy..., "Bill Kealey" wrote: > Out of curiousity, what's involved in pouring Babbit bearings? I > don't have this to worry about now, but, am always looking for > new-old toys and may need to do this sometime. Take a look at: http://www.metalwebnews.com/howto/babbitt/babbitt.html There is a link for an old 1920's booklet on babbitt bearings there that covers some of the procedures. You'll need an Adobe Acrobat Reader to view or print the file. ------- Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2001 10:11:22 EDT From: catboat15x~xxaol.com Subject: Re: Bearings In a message dated 9/15/01, elsonx~xxpico-systems.com writes: >You have to scrape down or machine away enough of the old babbit material >so there is a channel for the new babbit metal to flow into place. I'm not >sure whether you need to preheat the bearing substrate or the spindle. I have re-babbeted automobile rod bearings a few times. After you remove the old babbet you must tin the bare bearing with solder. Otherwise the babbet will not adhere to the bearing shell and want to turn with the shaft. Took a few tries to learn this from an old mechanic. As I remember we used sal-amoniac for a flux and bar solder to do the tinning. John Meacham High Desert of California, Palmdale, Littlerock. ------- Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 20:25:50 -0400 From: "Ebower" Subject: Re: Spindle bearings >>> I have a Craftsman 12x36 lathe that started to make loud high pitched sound that was unbearable. The lathe also immediately stops when powered down, something it did not do before. Also some roughness when turned freewheel by hand. Made a lot of ratteling and ringing noised when in use for a while now. I suspect spindle bearing failure but am not sure. Is there any other way to test my suspicions before I spend the big bucks for bearings? Could anything else cause those ringing/rattleing noises? These are Timken tapered roller bearings for Craftsman model 101.28910. I hope to save some money by purchasing said bearings from my local bearing dealer instead of from Clausing or Sears, is it a fallacy to think I can get them there cheaper? Does anyone know what the Timken part numbers are so that I can buy them from an outside source? Any help would be surely appreciated. Thank you. mannyjrlx~xxmsn.com <<< Clean the bearings and find on them what the number and maker is. Call MSC and ask for customer service and give them the numbers. They may have replacements. (I buy a lot of my bearings from them). Earl Bower bower machine ------- Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2001 13:52:44 EDT From: anthrhodesx~xxaol.com Subject: Re: 10F-11 Gearcase (from Digest Number 646) Might I suggest that one of you who has a broken gearcase measure your existing Zamac version and make a drawing for a "functional" replacement so that you can replicate it in iron or steel. Once you've made a replica and proved it on your lathe you might then post the drawing to the group files section as a service to others who need the same repair. If we all do this for repair, service, or accessory items for our various Atlas/Craftsman machines we will collectively be in a better position to properly maintain or even improve our equipment. Just a thought. Anthony Berkeley, Calif. ------- Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2001 14:50:40 -0700 From: "Jerald Hellmann" Subject: Re: Re: 10F-11 Gearcase (from Digest Number 646) Anthony, thanks for the suggestion. I will do just that in the near future, as I intend to open up the carriage apron soon to replace another part. In a similar vein, does anyone know of a list or other resource that would make replacement of any other parts less expensive, such as Boston Gear parts or such? I am new to this group, having acquired a somewhat abused 10-F that could use some minor parts missing or in need of replacement. Adding them up from the latest Clausing price list comes to $421. 33 plus shipping. I believe I might be better off to break my unit down and sell the parts on a piece basis and then use the income to purchase a nice used unit. (It's possible, I might even have some surplus cash remaining.) Also, is it acceptable to post a list of parts here, that one needs for repairs to their own unit, and conversely, some extra parts for sale or trade that are no longer needed? Is there a repository somewhere for drawings or sketches of any parts one may need and elect to make? I know I've asked a lot of questions, but these are areas of concern for me as a new member and 10-F owner. Thanks very much all replies. Jerry Hellmann (near Cincinnati) ------- Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2001 01:21:40 -0000 From: BillMcGoughx~xxmsn.com Subject: Re: 10F-11 Gearcase (from Digest Number 646) Mine too had broken.. I made a trace of the old one, and used it to build a pattern then cast it in AL.. a Very easy to machine project in the lathe and drill press. You will need a little better than 3/4 drill bit, or could probably bore it on a face plate and angle plate too. There is about a gijillion times more metal in my new one than the original. If the new one breaks, its because im doing something I shouldnt be doing ;) If you guys want the pattern to pass around, send me an address and a couple bucks for postage and its yours, however if you have the means and equipment to make the part... the pattern would be a no brainer. Bill FWIW: If you're not set up to do the cast, and enough people want a casting only (you machine it yourself) I can make a few up for whatever you feel is a fair price. ------- Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 18:49:14 -0500 From: "Charles Brumbelow" Subject: Re: Only a newbie would ask! From: > Sometime ago I read a post where a sober machinist(I assume) got fed > up with his carriage being free to run near the headstock, where the > ways are worn , and it jamming further down the bed where there was > less wear. This hero? just got out his best file and sanded the ways > down until the carriage moved freely. > While i am shocked by his audacity, i'm wondering whether to do the > same thing myself, for the same reason. I have a 12"x36" Craftsman > /Atlas #101.07403, and also a heavy 3"x48"Starret straight edge. I'm > assuming that the wear on the ways would all be at the rear, since > that part acts against the cutting forces, so would file down only the > rear vertical edge. I can measure about 0.003" difference from > headstock to tailstock end. Is this a sound idea, or should one of you > put a gun to my head and say "Put the file down, buddy!"? Any > ideas/comments would be greatly welcome. Richard - Scraping the ways is a common rebuilding operation for lathes, but I've never heard of successfully filing them. Know anyone with a large surface grinder who might -- for a reasonable fee -- clamp the bed down and take a few thousandths off? As I recall, surface grinding the ways is what Atlas did when manufacturing these lathes. Charles ------- Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 19:38:31 -0500 From: "M K (Skip)Campbell Jr." Subject: Re: Only a newbie would ask! I had this done on former Atlas 12X36 at a local grinding shop, Southwest Grinding in Ft. Worth. They used a Blanchard grinder a took about .004 off the top for $32.00. This greatly helped but didn't solve the whole problem. I did remove the groove in the top front way and most of the dings. Most of the wear is on the top of the front way and the bottom of the rear and of course some on the front and rear edges. I think the 32.00 was well worth the investment. I would think if someone was going to scrape a lathe, having the top blanchard ground would sure save a lot (if not most) of the time involved at a very reasonable price. Regards, Skip Campbell Ft. Worth, TEXAS Craftsman 12X36 101.28990 http://www.mkctools.com ------- Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 21:36:58 EDT From: LouD31M066x~xxaol.com Subject: Re: Only a newbie would ask! While we are at it have you any experience in removing and replacing headstock on 6 inch atlas? Does removing headstock get you into serious trouble trying to line up centerline of way and centerline of spindle when it comes time to put it back together? I am in middle of replacing lots of parts in headstock and thought it would be easier to clean out dirt if headstock and ways were separated. Is this is a step beyond wisdom and into unneeded frustration? Grinding ways seems straight foreward enough if you cannot accept condition of ways. How critical is condition of way? Where is the line between acceptable marginal and downright crappy? I suspect it must have a lot to do with the type of work you do and the basic quality of accuracy built into the lathe. Cost... what is fair and how do you judge if grinder knows how to do grind just enough and just right? Louis ------- Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 22:59:16 -0700 From: S1 Subject: Re: Only a newbie would ask! I had a 109 that had unevenly worn ways, and I filed down the high spots on the V-ways. I know a master machinist that had an Atlas 618 lathe 20 years ago, and he filed the the bed down also to level them out. So it has been done. I noticed an immediate improvement with the 109 I had. It didn't solve the problem completely, but it helped greatly. If you do decide to file the ways, proceed VERY carefully, You can be as accurate as a surface grinder, but it takes a very long time. On machines that don't have hardened ways, scraping the ways on heavily used machines is a common enough practice if the rest of the machine is in good shape. Gabe ------- Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 05:25:12 +0000 From: Jon Elson Subject: Re: Only a newbie would ask! richardmedwayx~xxsprintmail.com wrote: > less wear. This hero? just got out his best file and sanded the ways > down until the carriage moved freely.ideas/comments greatly welcome. Absolutely, DO NOT DO THIS! There IS a technique, calld hand scraping, that will fix any problems like this. The Atlas is especially easy, because the ways do not have dovetails or inverted VEEs. But, you don't just file away by eye. You use a precision straightedge, or a surface plate, to find the high spots and gradually cut them down. Otherwise, you could get a machine that operates very smoothly, but cuts barrel-shaped objects! With the file and the naked eye, you would almost certainly end up with "bannanna-shaped" bed ways! Don't use the Starrett straight edge until you've tested it on a known- good surface plate. Then, you have to watch out for hand heat warping the straightedge when you handle it. It is quite tricky to use a 48" straight edge without causing problems due to the heat from your hands. I doubt, seriously, that all the wear is at the rear vertical face. I suspect with spotting dye, or even magic marker, you would be able to detect easily measurable wear on the front and top, too. (Yes, wear on the front and back is more important to accuracy, that's true.) A file might be a reasonable tool for the first cutting pass on a heavily worn bed, but you would want to change to a much more precise and controllable tool after getting the bulk of the high spots down. That is what the scrapers are for. They have only one slightly curved edge, so they remove metal exactly where the spotting dye shows it needs to come off. Jon ------- Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 06:37:20 -0700 From: Mark Fraser Subject: Headstock on 6-inch Atlas I can't imagine why it would NOT be a good idea. It took me a little bit of prying to "unglue" mine from the bed, but if you think about it, it's just held on with a few screws, and the alignment with the ways and the tailstock is something that should be checked in any event. I took mine off to (hopefully) skim a few thou from the ways, so that the carriage can be moved more than a few inches away from the headstock, while being snug when *near* the headstock. Gonna try a monster mill for the job (not my mill, and I trust the owner's judgement!) mark ------- Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 19:46:18 -0400 From: James Meyer Subject: Re: Only a newbie would ask! Back when I got my brand new Atlas 618 I noticed that the ways were too tight at one end of the bed if I took the slack out of the gibbs at the other end. It wasn't wear since the lathe was new. I figured that they milled the ways and one end of the bed was or got hotter than the other and when the whole thing got to the same temperature, one end was smaller than the other. I used some grinding compound on the ways and slid the carriage back and forth while I gradually snugged down on the gibbs. I concentrated on the tight end and when I got through the whole thing was the same size all the way down. The other thing I did was to completely dissasemble the lathe and clean it up. There were a lot of sharp edges everywhere that I took off lest they work their way off and get into something sensitive later. The 618 was a cheap lathe (otherwise I wouldn't have bought it) and they couldn't afford to take the time to really finish all the pieces the way more expensive machines would have been done. Jim ------- Date: Thu, 04 Oct 2001 18:14:10 +0000 From: Jon Elson Subject: Re: bull gear pin keeps disengaging? egjamesonx~xxaol.com wrote: > the bull gear of my (recently refurbished) Atlas 10" keeps > disengaging when the load gets a little high. If it stays engaged > there is plenty of torque to make the cut it just seems that a heavy > load causes the gear pin to disengage from the step pulley. is this > supposed to happen or is the pin assembly worn out. if it is worn > out, how do i replace the pin only. any help is appreciated. Wear is likely. First, check the setscrew that holds the bull gear in place. If loose, it allows the gear to creep back and forth on the spindle. If the keyway is worn on the bull gear, you have a problem, as wobbling action may keep it loose, and work the pin back. There is supposed to be a detent - a pretty firm one on the two Atlas lathes I've owned. it is the typical ball and spring arrangement. With greasy fingers, it is almost impossible to pull the pin if the detent is working right. If it pulls easily, that is most likely your problem. If you take the pin apart carelessly, the ball and or spring can be lost. I think there is a setscrew that backs up the spring, but some lathes may not have this. On those, you have to make up a dowel the right diameter to hold the ball in while the pin is installed. Finally, wear is also possible. that is harder to fix. You will only know this is the problem by disassembly, if all other checks don't turn up the cause. Jon ------- Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 09:30:00 -0400 From: Richard Parker Subject: Re: set screws >> I vaguely recall seeing a suggestion that one can put lead shot under a setscrew before tightening it in order to prevent damage to the threads of the bolt that is being discouraged from movement. I am working on an old Parks planer and the screws that hold the chip breaker in place have setscrews to prevent them loosening up. I had a difficult time removing them initially and would like to avoid further damage. Does anyone out there have knowledge or experience in regard to this issue? Randy in Winnipeg << In applications where a setscrew will bear upon another threaded (or closley finished) part, I usually machine a rod from brass or nylon that is a few thousandths u/s the tap drill diameter of the set screw. Then, I part the rod into sections about .060 long or so, and drop one of these in the setscrew hole prior to tightening the screw. I suppose that a few pellets of lead shot would provide the same protection, but the brass or nylon plugs will last longer and add a bit of "class" to the job. I've also annealed the end of setscrews (they tend to be fairly hard), and drilled a blind hole in the end that's substantailly u/s the minor diameter of the screw. Then, I press-fit a piece of nylon rod directly into the end of the screw. This is handy when the screw must be removed repeatedly (for adjustments, etc), because the nylon bearing stays with the screw. Best, Rich ------- Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2001 06:01:55 -0700 From: Mark Fraser Subject: Way grinding (or milling) Thanks to my friend Marcus, my 6x24 is now a much better lathe.... Firstly, while surface grinding is obviously going to give a much better finish, the number of shops able to handle a piece this big is limited. Mills, however, might be more plentiful in your area. Many shops think angled (rather than orthogonal) surfaces when you call up and ask about regrinding lathe ways. Setup for those would be a nightmare, and much more expensive. You'll likely get a "no" or an estimate of many hundreds of dollars unless you clarify it up front. Take off the headstock, the feet, the tailstock, carriage, leadscrew and rack - the latter is located with 2 pins that should pull out easily (or pushed out from the back). These are riveted to the rack - careful! What I watched (and occasionally helped with): Bed upside-down on mill table, hold down using webs at ends, but from the inside facing out, to avoid making the bed wow upward in the center. Skiff the surfaces where the feet attach; these will be the reference surfaces for the rest of the job. Right side up: Hold down same way, use an indicator to make sure the front (or rear) outside way surface is parallel to the table along the X axis - you'll be milling that surface so you don't want to cut 1/8 of an inch off 1 end and zip from the other, right? This will take a few minutes, but well worth it. The advantages of power-feed will be obvious if it's a manual rig. First cut, using a flycutter having a swath just slightly wider than the width of the top of one way rail. Objective is to just skiff off enough to bring unworn areas (such as under the headstock) down to the same elevation as the worst worn areas. Don't sweat the dings from the (previous owner's) hammer or chuck jaws - we're after bearing surface here, not photogenicity. Do both rails, proceed slowly, keep a uniform pace or it'll look crappy and you may have some arc-shaped grooves deeper than you want them otherwise. Ideally, you'll have to make another pass, which is good exercise and a good way to avoid taking *too much* off, which will complicate your life on reassembly. Next, an endmill for the front and back surfaces. (cut with the VERTICAL portion of the endmill....) Same rules apply, not too much, don't worry about slight rounding of the way corners from earlier wear, a mm of "radiusing" won't kill you. Use a climbing cut for a nice finish. Mine was bowed 5 thou or so - front and back were parallel but arc-shaped! Second last - a flycutter with a slightly radiused tip (did I mention that at the very start?) pointing UPWARD to do the underside of the ways - outside only, not down the slot. Again, don't take off too much. Last, redo the top surfaces, as the bed has probably relaxed a little. This showed up with mine as different way thicknesses at the ends vs. the middle of the bed (along the long axis, of course). Got mine to within a thou by micrometer for thickness, same for top surface using an indicator on the quill. Use something to break the nice sharp edges on the way corners, or you'll make nice cuts on your fingers when you pick it up. Wipe off all the cast iron dust, put on a light coat of oil and you're in business. Now, put the headstock on - clean up all the grunge - old oil , filings etc. so that it rests on the nice shiny ways, not on the crud. You may have decided to lap and polish the ways first, by the way; shouln't be necessary for any reason but appearance. Next, at the rear / bottom of the carriage is a plate that may have some shims under it, with the gib between the plate and the casting. At best, you'll have to take out shims to snugly sandwich the rear way between the plate and the bearing surface of the carriage. At worst you'll have to BOTH trim down the width of the gib (which on mine was a tight fit with the 13 thou of shims still in place) and maybe skiff some material off the carriage. You'd like this to be a nice fit with the way, so that you can control vibration, especially during cutoff operations. Helps with accuracy, too. The front way uses a block next to the thread indicator for reducing vertical play on the front side. One problem noted by others is excessive clearance between the handwheel pinion and the rack - this has increased by the amount you took off the top of the ways. Mine is ok, thankfully.... Next, I'll attack the cross slide dovetails, which are also badly worn... mark ------- Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2001 12:20:45 EDT From: steamclassx~xxaol.com Subject: Re: Way grinding (or milling) Just to let everyone know...... I had my ways ground on my 54" atlas bed done at Brown & Covey of Kansas City. They did a supurb Job!! They took .oo5 off the top and .oo3 off the sides + they squared up the bed at a minimal cost of only 175.00. The finish is absolutely beautifull!!! This company makes its living at rebuilding manufacturing equipment. I would refer anyone to have them do your ways on your Atlas lathe. The surface grinder they have is at least 18' in length!! Good luck !! John. ------- Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2001 22:01:47 +0000 From: Jon Elson Subject: Re: Craftsman 12 in Spindle Stuck in Headstock kplus13x~xxyahoo.com wrote: > I began the morning trying to put a preload on the spindle in order > to create the drag mentioned in the Atlas tech note on spindle removal/ > replacement. The spindle rotates pretty freely when cold and I > thought it would be a good idea to tighten it up. I found I couldn't > turn the collar on the left side of the spindle, nor could I slide the > spindle back and forth in the headstock any amount once the collar was > removed. > I followed the tech note to the point where it said to drive out the > spindle. The spindle doesn't budge. Have I forgotten to undo > something? I've removed the left-most collar and the drive gear that it > captured. The woodruff key is also out. I've loosened the set screws(2) > on the collar to the right of the bearing and on the large gear that > engages with the back gears. Do I just need to beat on the spindle > harder? Can the spindle corrode to the bearings? This lathe is a recent > acquisition and I don't know how well the previous owner lubed it or > what he used. The only thing still holding it in is the rear bearing inner race. These have a rounded area near the ID bore that tends to pack grit into the interference fit of the bearing on the spindle. It will cause the bearing to bind on the spindle. So, you have to do a bunch of cleaning in that groove before trying to drive the spindle out. I made some steel discs that have a step on the OD, and act as push plates for the spindle. I use these with a Craftsman gear puller. I made one disc for each end of the spindle (one to push it out, one to push it back in). Note there is also a key in the bull gear, in addition to the setscrew. Jon ------- Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2001 17:17:04 EST From: LouD31M066x~xxaol.com Subject: Re: Craftsman 12 in Spindle Stuck in Headstock STOP...now is not the time to reach for a bigger hammer! Review tech notes on web site. Is it possible there is something overlooked still clamping spindle? It is also possible the infamous nefarious crud is at work. Remove per instructions and reinstall in reverse order works in the manual, but not in my experience. At this point I would suggest some cleaning to reveal the state of things, to allow you to form a mental image of problem and to introduce some solvent into areas that might be gummed up with crud since the year 1. I am not sure which lathe you are working on and whether you are removing or installing, but, of one thing I am sure whatever gets bent, broken or lost will hurt your wallet. I am of opinion that machine tools are regarded by many as self cleaning and self oiling and that time spent looking after equipment is time wasted. It is unfortunate that this is not correct. When someone with high hopes and little experience acquires a new/old toy the first thing needed is lots of TLC. It takes time and costs money and unfortunately as you have discovered you can't get there from here situations arise. All I can say to encourage you is keep trying you are not alone in trying to revive a good machine. Louis ------- Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2001 17:24:54 EST From: HUNLEY31x~xxaol.com Subject: Re: Craftsman 12 in Spindle Stuck in Headstock Louis is right. Take your time. It took me 2 evenings to remove my spindle. Finally I tried heat. It worked but progress was still slow. Only luck keep me from damaging my bearings. You know that you don't want to do that. Give some solvent time to work. Hank ------- Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2001 23:38:22 -0400 From: "Harvey Noel" Subject: Re: Craftsman 12 in Spindle Stuck in Headstock I just took the spindle out of my 10" Atlas and it came out hard. Large hammer and block of wood. Remove the collar on the left and file off any burs left by the set screw if there are any dings. Loosen the set screws in the collar on the left. After the obvious is removed be sure the set screw in the large spindle gear to the right is loose. It has probably left a burr that causes the spindle to bind. Shim the large gear on the right against the casting with wood. Drive the spindle until the key in the large gear can be seen. Remove the key with pliers. Surprise it comes out easy. Then you can drive the spindle out to the right by the wooden block and hammer on the right. Good luck HTH. ------- Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2001 23:47:35 -0400 From: "Harvey Noel" Subject: Re: Craftsman 12 in Spindle Stuck in Headstock Just one additional comment. When everything was cleaned and reassembled the spindle went in slick and easy I was able to push the spindle through by hand. But on the way out it took some pretty heavy banging.. ------- Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2001 10:20:47 -0500 From: Ronald Thibault Subject: Re: Craftsman 12 in Spindle Stuck in Headstock Dave; Are you sure you have the Timkin Bearing Headstock? Are the bearing housings solid, or do they come apart with 2 bolts? If the latter, its' a Babbitt bearing model. If it is the timkin model, there is a woodruff key under the larger spindle gear (bullgear). Tap the spindle back in place, then slide the gear as far to the right as possible, tap the spindle to the right until the key is just short of the shield, then fish out the key with needle nose pliers. You may have to wiggle the spindle and gear back and forth a little. Ron Thibault Warrenville, SC USA http://pages.prodigy.net/thibaultr/ ------- Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2001 15:41:29 -0000 From: kplus13x~xxyahoo.com Subject: Re: Craftsman 12 in Spindle Stuck in Headstock Thanks for the suggestions. It seems like I'm in the same spot as Harvey. Everything that is supposed to be loose, is and the spindle seems to be bound to the Timken bearings inner races. >From some light taps with a dead-blow hammer, I can see that the bearings seem to be coming out of the seats. Front and rear, that is. Jon, I'm interested in your discs and I wish that the lathe were ready to make a set. There don't appear to be any "secret" set screws that the Atlas tech notes failed to mention. For now, I think I will just scrape what I can with a dental pick and try LPS on what's left. I don't think there is any corrosion, just some bonding between the inner bearing races and the spindle aided by what appears to have been WD-40 or some other oil that leaves a varnish behind. Maybe some of the electrical parts cleaner that Ron mentioned using on his old lathe would work to remove the varnish. Thanks again, Dave Kuechenmeister ------- Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2001 09:57:35 -0600 From: Jim Irwin Subject: Re: Re: Craftsman 12 in Spindle Stuck in Headstock Try some really good penetrating oil such as Kroil, maybe even with some lacquer thinner to help cut the crud. May take a day or more of soaking and working it to get it loose. May have to apply some heat, as in hair dryer applied for an hour or more (won't work fast). Best regards, Jim Irwin ------- Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2001 16:17:32 -0600 From: "Randy" Subject: Re: Re: Craftsman 12 in Spindle Stuck in Headstock Dave: Over the years I have tried the following on tight fitting shafts. After making sure everything is clean I use a heat lamp to heat the area with the bearings, this will take quite a while, make sure you don't get it so close that it burns the paint. The heat will transfer to everything it shines on so after it is way to hot to touch either end of your spindle remove the lamp and put ice cubes inside the spindle bore this will shrink the spindle away from the heated bearings and help it slide out. It may just slide right out or you may still have to tap on it. I would not hit very hard on the spindle you will actually dimple the bearing race on the far end, if it takes that much of a blow I would definitely use Jon's method of the gear puller a steady pressure should not dimple the bearing races like the impact of hit after hit with a heavy hammer. Randy Pedersen Atlas 618 South Bend 9" A South Bend 9" C Salina, KS ------- Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2001 20:00:01 EST From: LouD31M066x~xxaol.com Subject: Re: Re: Craftsman 12 in Spindle Stuck in Headstock Just made disc to remove inner races on 10121400 (6 inch lathe). Worked like a charm. If you want it drop me a line. No charge and no further need. I will have making a slightly larger disc to replace bearing races. It really helps to have another lathe up and running. This was a cut and try job and it worked so aaa is a cut and try job. Louis ------- Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2001 21:33:52 EST From: LouD31M066x~xxaol.com Subject: Re: Craftsman 12 in Spindle Stuck in Headstock I failed to note before I started to write you are working a 12 inch lathe not a six inch lathe so disc I made is certainly not right for you. 6 inch and 12 inch lathes seem to be scale up or scale down of each other (depending on your point of view) so what holds true for one is probably good for the other. I had to drive spindle out using leadhammer and piece of hardwood broomstick.( lead hammer is a truly wonderful thing to have when needed). I was not concerned about spindle as I have to install a new one, ditto for bearings. When spindle is driven out left hand bearing cone and rollers strip off spindle and right hand cone and rollers remain on spindle. Inner races stay in headstock. I made up a disc by cut and try (ie take it out of chuck on lathe that I was using to turn it and try it for size) until I had a disc just small enough to fit hole in headstock and Just big enough to catch edge of bearing race. You can use threaded rod to make a puller or if you are impatient like me fasten to bolt and give it a couple whacks and bearing races just jumps out of headstock. Bearing on spindle can be pressed or driven off... If you are at point where you are ready to remove spindle and everything is slacked off follow the instructions on atlas tech hints, double check everthing and apply gentle persuasion as needed. If you need a disk made, let me know the size. A quick job not much involved. Note you will need two different size discs. A smaller diameter to remove and a larger diameter to replace bearing races. Both should be snug fit, but,not drag in bore. When you look at headstock you will see what I am talking about and where to take measurements of diameter. Louis ------- Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2001 18:58:29 -0500 From: Jude Miller Subject: Finally Fixed Chatter Problem, 6 Inch A/C Some of my first posts to this list were about a mysterious chatter problem I had when turning more than a few inches away from the tailstock center. Well, I finally fixed this. The problem was that I had lots of slop underneath the carriage, 1 thou on the far side, and 4 thou (!) on the near side. Cutting force pushes the carriage down, but if any chatter starts to develop, the tool "bounces" upward after digging in slightly. If the carriage is loose vertically, this leads to massive chatter. I fixed this by removing the carriage and removing laminations from the shims on the bottom of the carriage. The far side shim had 1 thou laminations which were very difficult to remove cleanly. The near side had 2 thou laminations. The near side was a bit tight when I finished. I slacked the screws holding the shims and restraining plates very slightly, then ran the carriage back and forth manually one hundred times, wiping and re-oiling every ten passes or so. Now, all the chatter is gone! By careful shaping of the cutting tools and improving my technique, I was able to minimize chatter even with the slop. In effect, the slop made me much more careful when setting up cuts. Cutting off was still pretty iffy but I just cut off a half-inch piece of drill rod with no trouble. Worked so well I made some washers out of it for practice. Well, enough chatter for now :-) Jude Miller ------- Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 06:39:28 +0100 From: Subject: Re: Name plate removal > Hi all, I'm in the process of refurbishing my TH42, at this time I'm > taking it apart and cleaning/repainting. Does anyone have trick to > take off the name plates/threading chart without damaging the plates? I did not remove the plate, it is not necessary at all. Some tape on it, well cut with a cutter has saved it from the oil remover, the primer and the 2 finishing coats. The plate is riveted. Jean-CLaude, Switzerland www.homestead.com/turnandmill ------- Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 15:40:16 -0000 From: extratec2001x~xxyahoo.com Subject: Re: Name plate removal I'm also in the process of restoring my lathe (late model 12") and have come across the same problem of removing the name, belt change and quick change plates. My plates showed years of use, so I just ordered a new set from clausing for under $20. The old ones were easily removed using a small punch. It was well worth it to me because now my lathe looks brand new! ------- Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 09:45:18 -0600 From: "Koepke, Kevin" Subject: RE: Name plate removal The name plates are held in place with semi-tubular rivets which were applied with a small bench press, and can be drilled out from the reverse side. The threading chart needs to be removed first so you can get to the name plates back side. On a TH42, it's easy to get to the back side of the gear cover to remove its nameplate. On the other hand, the vertical countershaft model, the nameplate is ussually mounted near the base of the headstock, which makes it hard to get to the back side. You can use a center punch on the head to center drill. ------- Date: Sun, 02 Dec 2001 07:04:04 -0500 From: Ronald Thibault Subject: Re: Name plate removal >Hi all, I'm in the process of refurbishing my TH42, at this time I'm >taking it apart and cleaning/repainting. Does anyone have trick to >take off the name plates/threading chart without damaging the plates? If the hole for the drive rivets goes all the way through the casting, you may be able to drive them out from the back. Failing that I have had luck using a Dremel tool with a grinding stone to remove most of the head, then drive the shaft of the rivet in further, breaking off the remains of the head. This is not a perfect solution (unless your hand is steadier than mine), but it does work. I agree with Jean-Claude, about leaving them in place if possible. I had to remove mine as there was rust under the headstock speed chart, and I put a new bed on the lathe, and had to retain the original name plate from the old bed. P.S. A coat of Future Floor Polish applied with a rag to the face of the name plate after cleaning, does wonders for the appearance. Ron Thibault Warrenville, SC USA http://pages.prodigy.net/thibaultr/ ------- Date: Sat, 01 Dec 2001 06:00:10 +0000 From: Jon Elson Subject: Re: Question............. Manuel Sanchez wrote: > Does anyone know if - when you have the lathe bed re-ground, > does it keep it's hardened ways, or does it need to be hardened again? > Or was it ever hardened? It would be about 5 - 10 thousands > of an inch grind. And also, how deep is the hardening anyway? > My lathe is a 12 inch Craftsman 1937 model. Atlas beds are most certainly NOT hardened from the factory. Regrinding 10 thousandths off a hardened bed would remove the hardened layer, but you don't have one (Which is one reason the beds do wear so much). Jon ------- Date: Thu, 06 Dec 2001 23:12:39 -0000 From: "rkueffer25" Subject: Under Cabinet Lathe I really like the clean look of the under cabinet models, just wondering if it was possible to convert an Atlas lathe (motor & pulleys mounted above) to an under cabinet model(motor & pulleys mounted below the lathe bed). Building the cabinet would be pretty straightforward but would placing the belts & pulleys under the cabinet be out of the question. Do the under cabinet models use the same pulley/shaft combination? Has anyone done this or would it be better off to try to locate a Atlas cabinet to start with? As I'm right now cleaning mine up to use and I have never seen one of these under cabinet models in person (only pictures) I would like any insight on such a project, pro or con. ------- Date: Thu, 06 Dec 2001 23:48:55 -0000 From: "extratec2001" Subject: Re: Under Cabinet Lathe I have one of the late Model 12" Atlas lathes on the underdrive cabinet. My lathe started life as a bench top unit, and I converted it over to fit the factor cabinet. Inside the headstock, you need to replace the 4-groove pulley with the original 2-groove pulley from a lathe that was originally on the cabinet stand. I was lucky enough to find that pulley at Sobel Machine in NJ. He will mail anywhere and is a very honest guy. Regis ------- Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 01:14:49 -0000 From: "jt27278" Subject: Crunch! My early 10" Atlas lathe made an expensive noise last night and I hope someone can help me. I'm not sure what started the problem, probably a chip where it shouldn't be, but the result was a broken zamak part that I don't think can be repaired. The broken part is the bracket in the apron that holds the hand wheel gears. The bracket holds a shaft with a small gear on one end that meshes with the rack, and a larger gear that meshes with the gear on the hand wheel. A call to Sobel confirmed my fears that this part is no longer available. My lathe is the early version that does not have power cross feed and uses a 5/8" lead screw. Sobel's only suggestion was to upgrade to a power cross feed apron and a 3/4" lead screw. I would prefer not to do this as it is quite expensive. So, does anyone have one of these goodies they could part with? Alternatively, I'm thinking of trying to mill a replacement from a block of aluminum. My milling skills are minimal, so some encouragement, or a better idea will be greatly appreciated. Thanks, Jeff Taylor ------- Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 20:51:50 EST From: LouD31M066x~xxaol.com Subject: Re: Crunch! If part is not available from clausing/atlas or some other source consider fabricating part up from individual pieces of brass. It might be easier to make several simple pieces and use silver soldering or fasteners to assemble. I have considered this part briefly and think getting the measurements right the first time might be more luck than planning. If you have a good set of measurements and make a series of small simple parts you may be able to fudge or rework as needed to arrive at a usable replacement. I suppose the best approach is to use the skills knowledge you have confidence in although there is much to be said for projects and approaches that force you to grow. Just thoughts from a newbie. Louis ------- Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 08:12:37 -0000 From: "rweersing1947" Subject: Re: Crunch! The part you need is #9-11 which Clausing doesn't make anymore. I have an early 10-D model and a 10-F model lathe and I compaired the 9-11 with 10F-11 gear case and it doesn't look like it would fit. It was close, but the early 10-D has a shorter apron and one of the three screws wouldn't have anything to attach to. That leaves you with few choices, buy a used 9-11 gear case, buy a used 10-D carriage on ebay, sometimes you can pick up the whole 10-D carriage for cheap, buy a 9" carrage and take off the part, or convert it to a F series carrage. If you decide to convert to the F series you will have to buy most of the carriage(the tool post slide and the upper swivel are the same as your D model, all the rest is different.), a 3/4" lead screw, and the 10F-16 bearing that holds the right end of the leadscrew. You will gain a power crossfeed and be able to find parts but it will be expensive. Good luck Bob ------- Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 20:43:45 -0800 From: Ronald Thibault Subject: Re: Crunch! Jeff; I fixed a broken gear bracket on my lathe with a brass strip and epoxy. I wrote it up on my site in the Atlas section (address below). Perhaps you can fix yours with the same method. Ron Thibault http://pages.prodigy.net/thibaultr/ ------- Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 19:43:56 +0000 From: Jon Elson Subject: Re: Part needed... hutchlk wrote: > I would like a complete saddle assy' for a 12" Atlas lathe. My > present one does not have power crossfeed and I would like to change. > If anyone happens to know of one I would appreciate you letting me know. Be careful. Your lathe is a model 'D'. The model 'F' lathe had the power crossfeed, but it also had a 3/4" leadscrew with a keyway in it. At the least, you would need to replace the leadscrew, too. There might be other things that won't fit, so the parts the leadscrew attaches to, like the right-end bearing and the reversing gearbox, might also need to be changed. I assume you have a 5/8" leadscrew, which was standard with the 'D' model. A few during the transition came with the 3/4", just to keep us confused. Jon ------- Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 19:47:13 +0000 From: Jon Elson Subject: Re: Part needed... ARRGH! There's MORE! Note than a bunch of 12" model 'D' beds were actually 10" beds, with the 3/8" thick ways, rather than the later 12" bed with the 1/2" thickness. Measure the vertical thickness of the bed ways. The front- back dimension of the ways were different, also. So, you can't just grab any 12" saddle and throw it on there without checking the measurements. It depends on whether your lathe was pre- or post-1938, I think. Jon ------- Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 20:07:40 -0000 From: "hutchlk" Subject: Thanks Jon...my Atlas lathe does indeed have the 3/8" ways instead of the 1/2". I have both lead screws for it. I think the previous owner ordered a new lead screw and as it came 3/4" he didn't know what to do with it. The old lead screw is 5/8" and this would work if I could get the end bearing for it. Does anyone want to buy a 3/4" lead screw? Larry in WI ------- Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 20:56:38 -0000 From: "tomin130" Subject: Re: Part needed... One more thing and I stand to be corrected on this. I think the aprons that have the power infeed all use the 3/4" lead screw. If you look at your current setup, the lead screw passes through the bracket that holds the rack gears. This bracket won't fit the "F" apron as the mounting holes are not the same and the hole is only big enough for the 5/8" screw. Also, the keyed bevel gear that rides on the lead screw to drive the infeed is 3/4" ID. You'd better hold onto that 3/4" lead screw to fit the "F" style apron if you can find one. One more thing, is your saddle and apron one piece or is the apron attached with two large Phillips head screws from the top? If it is one piece, yours is a "D" model and I don't think that was made for power infeed. You should still be able to fit an "F" apron and saddle to your bed, however, keeping in mind what Jon said about the way dimensions. I remember when I called Clausing to order the parts diagram for my 10F, the first thing he asked me was what size lead screw I had. It does make a difference. Hope that helps. Tom ------- Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2001 08:13:24 +0000 From: Jon Elson Subject: Re: Re: 12" Atlas - excessive vibration kplus13 wrote: > I've finally reached the point where I only have to solve the problem > of excessive vibration, too. > I have replaced the worn belts with Powertwist link belts and noticed > some improvement. I also tightened some loose fasteners in the > countershaft bracket and lined up the motor pulley with the > countershaft pulley. That helped a little, too. > When I run at medium to low rpms, the lathe shakes pretty badly. The > lathe doesn't vibrate until I engage the headstock. I've measured the > runout on the countershaft spindle at around a thou, and on the > headstock spindle the TIR is too small to measure with my indicator. > It's probably better than a tenth. The pulleys appear to be undamaged, > and I've run out of ideas to locate the source of the vibration. > > I'd welcome any suggestions about what to check next. > Additionally, how loud are the back gears when they are engaged. My > clatter like crazy. Loud enough to consider wearing earplugs if my > hearing weren't already so bad. I think you are pointing us towards the solution. The step pulley on the spindle is nounted on a bearing, so it can spin when using the backgear. They all go 'ding-a-ding-a-ding' when in backgear, but if it is really loud, then the bearings are shot. There is a setscrew in the bottom of one of the pulley grooves that allows you to oil these bearings, but someone didn't bother on your lathe, apparently. If the step pulley is running off center, it will unbalance the spindle. The other thing I can think of is a missing pinion in the chuck. That will really throw the spindle out of balance. Most shaky Atlas lathes are due to bent countershaft pulleys or the shaft, itself. You might be able to separate this by running it with the back gear disengaged, but the direct drive pin in the bull gear pulled, too. if it still shakes, it has to be the countershaft or step pulley. If it only shakes in direct drive, (back gear is too slow for spindle imbalance to matter) then it must be the spindle or chuck. Try with the chuck off. (I've seen out-of-balance chucks.) You should be able to manually arrange to spin the countershaft without the spindle pulley, to see if the countershaft is out of balance. Jon ------- Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2001 17:42:57 -0600 (CST) From: dswrx~xxwebtv.net Subject: Re: Back assembly The pulley assembly that is in line with the spindle is not directly connected to the spindle, but rides on bearings on the spindle. power is transmitted from it to the spindle through (thru, if you're in a hurry) a pin that drives the bull (large gear) that is directly connected to the spindle. If you disengage this pin, the pulley assembly will rotate without driving the spindle. The smaller gear on the side away from the spindle nose is directly connected to the pulley assembly. If you rotate the gear cluster that is behind (back of) the spindle by moving the handle located adjacent to the back gear, it will engage the teeth of the gears on the spindle shaft. This will reduce the spindle speed and increase the amount of torque. Hope this helps. Leo ------- Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2001 00:09:43 -0600 From: "Jerry Foulds" Subject: Oil Cups with Timkens I have been following the discussion about oil cup wicks, etc. An observation that may be helpful (although it doesn't have to do with wicks) is that the bearing oil cups on the Atlas lathe headstock fitted with Timkens directs the oil over and around the outside of the bearing race. The oil runs to the bottom of the bearing race and pools there. The only way oil gets to the bearing rollers and race surfaces is if enough oil pools to raise the oil level to contact these components. By this time you there is enough oil accumulated to seep by the bearing covers and make a mess for days. I drilled a small hole in the face of the outside bearing covers to allow oil to be squirted directly on the top of the roller cages where it needs to be. A small rubber plug seals the hole. Jerry Foulds O.P., KS ------- Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2001 07:28:57 +0000 From: Jon Elson Subject: Re: Re: 12" Atlas - excessive vibration kplus13 wrote: >Thanks, I'll do a few more experiments today. I haven't been running the >lathe with a chuck, just because it would add one more unknown to the >system. I haven't done any testing with the back gears engaged, either. >The volume makes me think that there is something else wrong with >them. I'll look into the bearing problem as a separate issue. Ohh - it makes the clanging in direct drive! Well, something is very loose, for sure. It is possible one of the bushings in the spindle step pulley have disintegrated, or been pushed out by careless disassembly of the spindle (not hard to do if you don't have the manual.) >After re-reading my post with Jon's comments, I'm starting to >suspect problems in the headstock spindle, as well. I didn't replace >the tapered bearings when I removed and replaced the spindle because >they looked okay. Possibly they are not; I would think there would be >some runout on the spindle nose, if that were the case. Not necessarily. They can still run pretty true when in bad shape. The vibrations from mangled rollers will make very small wiggles in the spindle rotation. Shot roller bearings make a rumbling sort of noise, much different from clanging of totally loose journal bearings. Jon ------- Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2001 14:10:15 -0000 From: "kplus13" Subject: Re: 12" Atlas - excessive vibration I didn't do a very good job on that last post. The lathe isn't especially noisy in direct drive. Just when the back gears are engaged. However, the washing machine-like vibration doesn't happen when I disengage the direct drive pin and allow the reduction gears to spin freely. That's only when I allow the headstock spindle to spin, either by engaging the back gears or by switching to direct drive. I took the headstock spindle out and looked more closely at the bushings on the gear and pulley. There is some wear on the pulley; for the relatively small amount of money Clausing wants, I'll replace them all. Any tips on how to drive them out and replace them without causing any damage? I should put the headstock spindle on v-blocks and measure the runout, but I don't think there is much to measure. On the other hand, I've plenty of time before the new bushings arrive, so why not? Thanks for the tips on the gear lube. I think I'm quite close to making this a very tight lathe. I'm looking forward to actually making something with it. Sincerely, Dave Kuechenmeister ------- Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2001 10:45:35 -0800 From: Ronald Thibault Subject: Re: Re: 12" Atlas - excessive vibration Dave; Another source of vibration may be the motor/motor mount. On my old lathe the mount for the screw which applies the locking force between the countershaft and motor mounting plate was broken. I was just using the weight of the motor to hold tension on the belt. Well the motor would climb slightly, fall back as the belt slipped minutely, and then repeat. This caused the whole lathe to shake at a fair rate, with the motor bouncing around nicely! While this did not cause terrible problems, I'm sure it did not help the surface finish any. I sold that lathe before adding a tie-down for the mount to the bench, but would have done so if I had kept it. Ron Thibault Warrenville, SC USA ------- Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2002 08:56:34 -0500 From: "Tom Few" Subject: Re: Lead Screw Bearing >> metalcraft12001 wrote: >>> Evidently a small chip wedged in the carriage gears on my 10" D Model >>> and of course sheared the lead screw bearing. I called Atlas but they >>> only had the bearing for the F Model. Would anyone know where one >>> might be available. Needless to say this happened in the middle of a >>> job I have promised for next week. Thanks Pat Dillon >> >> Is this the right hand support for the leadscrew, under the tailstock? >> You might be able to jury rig some fix temporarily. I'm sure Dave Sobel >> can come up with the whole bracket. It is supposed to shear in such a >> way that you can fix it on the lathe, without needing the leadscrew to >> make the repair part. It is supposed to punch out the thin bushing, and >> then the leadscrew 'unscrews' through the bushing until you get the >> machine stopped. Jon > Jon, Thanks for the reply. Yes it is the bushing under the tailstock end > but it sheared in half and as you probably know it's unweldable. I'm am > trying to make a temp replacement out of steel until I can find the > original bushing. Pat Dillon Hi Pat: I had the same thing happen to my 10" lathe... I used a piece of 2"X1/4 aluminum angle about 2 in long to make a bracket to attach to the bed... I then cleaned up the piece of the bearing and milled a small flat spot on it ... I carefully drilled and tapped a 1/4-20 hole into the bearing holder...then by more luck than skill I'm sure. I marked and drilled holes to mount everything together. I was always going to replace this makeshift part with the right one... but this worked out so well that I am still using it ... If I can be of any help ... send me an email at rtffewx~xxhotmail.com Regards Tom -------- Date: Sun, 06 Jan 2002 09:54:39 -0500 From: Brian Green Subject: Re: Lead Screw Bearing Yes, the same thing happened to me on my 10x42. What I did as a temporary fix was to make a small support plate, held by the normal mounting screws, then stick the whole lot together with a "steel" epoxy. Let it set for 48hrs, trim the edged and mount it. It worked so well it's still in use months later, and I've stopped checking it for cracks. I guess most of the stresses involved must be absorbed at the gearbox end. Good luck, Brian ------- Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2002 12:05:42 -0500 From: Jude Miller Subject: Re: Rick Kruger wrote: > What is the pitch of the Atlas 6" leadscrew? 16 threads per inch. Best, Jude Miller ------- Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2002 23:56:16 -0600 From: "jerdal" Subject: Re: bent headstock spindle That is quite common. New old stock spindles are not available, but they can be made fairly easily, and some folks on the list do make them, including E Bower, I think. Drawings are in the AAdocs file in the rec.crafts.metalworking drop box. The jacobs chuck can cause that problem due to the long stick out relative to spindle diameter. You start out 3 diameters from the support and go from there. I would suggest using tailstock center for essentially ANY turning on the 109. One fix is to make a spindle with 3/4-16 nose thread, it is harder to bend, and uses available taig and Sherline spindle tooling. Jerry ------- From: Ronald Thibault Date: Tue Jan 15, 2002 10:01 pm Subject: Re: [atlas_craftsman] Lead Screw Bearing >> Thanks for the reply. Yes it is the bushing under the tailstock end but it sheared in half and as you probably know it's unweldable. I'm trying to make a temp.replacement out of steel until I can find the original bushing. << Check out the Atlas section on my site for diagrams on a breakaway bearing. Ron Thibault Warrenville, SC USA http://pages.prodigy.net/thibaultr/ ------- Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2002 08:35:46 -0800 From: Mark Fraser Subject: Re: Six Inch Lathe (ways) Mine had two problems: 1. wear near the headstock, resulted in either sloppiness in that area, or binding when the carriage was more than a couple of inches away. 2. Bowing BOTH front/back and vertically, by as much as 7-8 thou. Similar problems on the cross slide. I suspect the castings were very "young" when machined, finding their natural, post-stress form as the months and years passed. So, unless you have a very good straightedge and lots of patience, scraping may become a medium-duration career. I was lucky in that a friend let me use his big mill, and flycutters did a very nice job. I suppose I could do some lapping, but it "feels" very smooth both to the touch and when using the handwheels. Important to remember - the bed IS flexible, so anchor it to the table of the mill or grinder in pretty much the same way as it will be bolted to its normal bench. Believe it or not, you can distort it a few thou very easily. Also, taking too much off the top surface of the "near" way can result in the drive pinion and rack not engaging properly. Moglice or similar to build up the undersurface of the carriage may be the best way to attack this, but only if there is a real problem. I also had to fiddle with shims and the dimensions of the gib on the rear of the carriage, to get it nice and snug. This made a huge difference in vibration levels. Get everything nice and clean - grit free before reassembling, so that you don't do some unwanted lapping without knowing it. As a test, I rigged up my milling vise - into the normal toolpost T-slot on the compound - and while it isn't the most rigid setup in the world, it is at least usable, which it wasn't before the tune-up. It's a small Palmgren. mark ------- Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 04:23:20 -0000 From: "martello_nick" Subject: How to check for inside spindle taper wobble? Dear List, Don't know how to describe this but here goes: As I was cleaning and inspecting my 12" 1937 Atlas tonight, I noticed a slight wobble at higher speed when I put a Jacob's chuck into the spindle using a #2-3 collet. There was also a definite number of thump thump noises I hadn't heard before. (Course I had to turn my radio off first to hear them.) I began to get worried about my Babbitt bearings but there doesn't seem to be any side to side movement here. Checked for end play and tightened up the end collar nut a tad but that didn't help. Checking around I found the smaller jackshaft pulley setscrew loose, so I tightened that and took some of the noise away. Found the bull gear setscrew also loose and tightened that and all the noise went away. Wobble was still there! I don't see any wobble on the outside end of the spindle. The 3 jaw and 4 jaw chuck do not seem to wobble, it's only when I put something inside the spindle. (I tried several collets and tools, a long reamer and two other jacobs chucks as well as a large 1/2" cutter. I can't believe all of these tools are bad. Could this mean the inside of my spindle is out of round? How can I check this? If I can check this and find it bad, how do I fix it? Thanks Nick ------- Date: Sat, 09 Feb 2002 22:26:21 -0700 From: Steve K Subject: Re: How to check for inside spindle taper wobble? HI Nick: There is probably a slight burr inside the spindle...somewhere on the inside taper itself. A burr will cause ALL tools inserted to wobble, even though a chuck, which is threaded to the outside of the spindle will not wobble. Hopefully, it is just a burr, because you can usually stone it off. If the spindle taper is worn excessively, you have a problem. Sometimes you can feel a burr with your little finger inserted into spindle, and rotate the shaft BY HAND... NOT under power!!. A better way is to use a dial test indicator (DTI) with the tip registering in 2-3 places in the taper... start at the mouth, then go deeper about an 1/8" of an inch, and then deeper another 1/8" of an inch. Each time rotate the spindle by hand and watch for runout, or, a "blip" where the needle jumps over the hopeful burr. If you find a burr, the best way to stone it (and remove the burr) is to get a matching taper reamer (usually a MT #2 or #3). Insert the reamer in a tail stock chuck, advance it into the headstock spindle, and turn the reamer, by hand again, one or two revolutions. You should not need any more, if you do, the taper is very badly worn and it IS screwed up. Use plenty of threading oil, (or kerosene, or even WD 40 in a pinch), but keep the reamer lubricated and GENTLY turn the reamer and apply pressure with the tailstock so the reamer does cut. You can feel it cut. The headstock spindle does not rotate (in fact, lock it if you can), although if you are in a daring mood, you can rotate the spindle under power, with the reamer in the tailstock chuck. This is using what would called a "chucking" reamer -- i.e. using a reamer under power. I would not do this, because if you require that much metal to be removed, your taper is really screwed up. You are into another whole issue. If you do not have a reamer, and there is a RAISED burr, you can sometime "sand" it out with strip of emory paper or Silicon Carbide paper. This is tricky because you can easily screw up the taper by sanding too much. Again, use a lubricant and wrap the paper around a dowel. Even better, turn a wooden plug that approximates the taper, wrap the sandpaper around that, and insert it into the spindle taper. Again, be gentle, feel for the burr and sand it until the burr is gone by rotating the spindle. I highly recommend you do not sand with an "in and out" motion... too easy to screw up the taper. If the above fails, you will quite possibly need to have the taper reground or re-machined. A lot of home shop machinists do it, so you can too. The trick is to get the compound set up to the correct angle, and either rig up a grinder, with a tiny wheel, or a tiny boring bar, and literally remachine the taper. Be aware that you will make taper hole larger. But providing it is not too much larger, most taper attachments will still fit. They will go in deeper, but they will still fit. Good luck... don't panic because this is a repairable fix.... Steve Koschmann [NOTE: SEE REAMING FILE FOR MORSE TAPER REAMER USE] ------- Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 07:11:39 +0000 From: Jon Elson Subject: Re: How to check for inside spindle taper wobble? The first thing to do is just stick your finger into the taper, and turn the spindle by hand (NEVER under power, it can grab and rip your finger off). Feel for burrs, mars and especially nasty galling on the taper. You will, of course, find some, but if you find a big one, there is your answer. You can also look into the spindle with a flashlight and see what the surface looks like. Now, how to fix it. if there is just one major burr, you can remove it with a round stone, fine round file or a custom curved scraping tool. A small divot (low spot) on the taper will not affect accuracy at all. Any high spot will force the taper off center and/or off axis. If there is a whole ring where a tool of some sort spun in the taper, then you really need some surgery there. My preference is to duplicate the correct taper with a master tool and the compound (or a taper attachment, if you are lucky enough to have one.) What you do is rig a die grinder, toolpost grinder, Dremel or whatever you can cobble together, and put a small grinding stone in the grinder. Set it up so it can make it all the way into the taper of the spindle, which requires a rather long extension of the stone. Adjust the swivel on the compound until the stone follows the taper of the spindle as closely as you can determine it. Take a grinding pass inside the spindle, taking off just a tiny amount of material. You can paint the ID with magic marker to tell where cutting is being done. After getting a pretty even grind along the inside of the taper, take a known-good Morse taper arbor or other tool, and twist it into the spindle, and wring it in there a bit. Use magic marker or Prussian Blue "Hi Spot" marking compound to indicate the area where the two tapers touch. You will have to adjust the compound swivel until you get the grinding to fix the damaged area, as well as to regrind the internal taper to match the angle of the arbor you are using as a master. If you start off with the angle about right, you can do this job while only taking off a few thousandths of an inch, so you won't have tools going too deeply into the taper. With this procedure, even if the spindle is BENT, the ID runs true. One caution - if your compound slide is badly worn, it may no longer slide straight, making cutting tapers with it a very tricky and dangerous procedure. One way to test it is to align the compound with the bed, and use the compound to turn a piece of stock. You won't get perfectly consistant diameter without a lot of fooling around, but what you need to look for is a "barrel" shape, or the opposite. This will indicate the compound makes a curving path, and will give a measure of the scale of the problem. If the piece you turn this way is a consistant taper along its length, then your compound slide runs straight. Jon ------- Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 03:02:10 -0000 From: "martello_nick" Subject: Wobble Gone! A big thanks to both Steve K and Jon E. for the help on diagnosing my ID spindle wobble. You both hit it on the head. Found a ring (kind of a ridge-not a groove) built up way inside probably from a spinning collet or tool. I think it may have been a bad collet since it was way in the back of the taper. I could feel the raised edge when I slid a screwdriver down the shaft. I took Jon's advice and rigged up a rube goldberg on the compound with my new dremel tool. (I can't believe the wife got that for me for Xmas without even asking!) It came with an flexible shaft so I set that up on the compound per your instructions and it reached halfway down the spindle. I just had to touch it a bit while rotating by hand and it smoothed down. BTW, I found some cone shaped stones that Uncle Clyde had in his home shop. These were about the same taper as a collet and the spindle. Could he have used these to stone down the inside of the spindle? OK, here come more questions: 1. How can I keep this from happening again? I have 2 or 3 #2-#3 collets which I use to hold Jacob chucks and milling tools. One looks more grungy than the other two. Should I inspect all of them to make sure the outer case is smooth? I have a wire brush on the other side of my grinder and could brush them up. 2. Will smoothing them down keep them from spinning inside the spindle? 3. How can you tell if the taper is right? 4. This is a 1937 12" Atlas with original Babbitt spindle bearings. Where can I find a tapered reamer for this and what size should I be looking for? Thanks guys! Nick ------- Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 22:20:56 -0700 From: Steve K Subject: Re: Wobble Gone! Glad you found the problem Nick.... and congrats on a good fix. To further answer your questions, here are some ideas; 1. KEEP THE COLLECTS, drill bits, chucks-- et all CLEAN CLEAN CLEAN. Use a soft rag an wipe both the taper in the spindle and the whatever you are inserting -- BEFORE you insert anything. I often will use a bit of paint thinner or alcohol to rub the metal clean. Using paint thinner or alcohol evaporates very fast, leaving no residue. 2. If you have "dirty" collets, first clean up with a solvent (like above, or kerosene) and I recommend using a woven nylon mesh pad to clean them by hand. This is MUCH better than a wire wheel, unless the wire wheel is a VERY fine grit. YOu run the risk of literally scratching the metal with a wire wheel in a grinder. Not a good thing. 3. To test the taper, you need to know the taper from the manufacturer, or from the anyone here who has one. The standard ones are a Morse Taper (MT) # 2 or #3 for this size lathe, but there a quite few others. Call Atlas/Clausingn in Goshen IN and they will tell you. You should also get the manual for them. I think Atlas lathes used a MT #3 in the headstock spindle and a #2 in the tailstock spindle, but don't quote me. Then simply buy a new good, known arbor that matches the taper. As Jone E. outlines, use chalk (regular school chalk, blue or red is easier to see). Make three lines down the length of the good arbor (about 120 Degrees apart). Insert in to the spindle and twist gently once. If the arbor is good, you will see the chalk coating all the way around the inside of spindle. If you don't then the taper is mangled, but I think you will find that since you removed the ridge, your taper is just fine. Maybe not 100% perfect and brand new, but plenty good for daily use. 4. Tapered reamers are available from a bunch of sources -- MSC www.mscdirect.com: kitts industrial tools, Enco www.useenco.com harbor freight www.harborfreighttools.com etc. etc. Bunch of places. Good luck. Steve Koschmann ------- Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 05:48:41 +0000 From: Jon Elson Subject: Re: Wobble Gone! If a collet has damage that makes it sit on a high spot, rather than the entire OD of the collet, then spinning is much more likely. Make sure your drawbolt is tight. > 3. How can you tell if the taper is right? > 4. This is a 1937 12" Atlas with original Babbitt spindle bearings. > Where can I find a tapered reamer for this and what size should I be > looking for? I don't really think a tapered reamer is a good idea, as it has no way to assure concentricity. A much better way is to grind it true with the compound. To check the accuracy of the taper, you need some tool with a solid male taper, like a drill, center or arbor of some sort. You put Prussian Blue (sold in tool catalogs as "Hi Spot", but the same stuff is available at art stores) on one part (the female taper is probably best in this case) then you insert the male taper and genty twist it to transfer the dye. You then remove it and examine the pattern of blue on the taper. If you have a short ring at one end, the tapers don't match. If you have a long section of the taper that has an even layer of dye on it, then the tapers are very accurately mating up with each other. When using the compound slide, you just have to adjust the swivel in tiny increments and grind again until you get the desired dye pattern. Jon ------- Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 18:40:34 -0000 From: "martello_nick" Subject: Re: Wobble Gone! AhHA! Now I understand. I have a simple MT #2 or #3 that accepts the squarish end of things like cutters, jacobs chucks etc. into my spindle. Perhaps I don't have the right items? Can you give me a sample part number to scan for on HF or MSC? I have been using the Morse Taper to accept these items perhaps incorrectly but that is all that I found with the tooling handed down from "Uncle Clyde" (previous lather owner and machinist). Thanks, Nick ------- Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 20:16:18 -0000 From: "stevenhkb" Subject: Re: Wobble Gone! Nick, sounds like a tap holding collet, Morse taper outside with round hole inside ending in a square pocket. This holds a tap end in the square pocket, usually has a drawbar threaded hole in the end to tighten it into the spindle. For tooling in the spindle, like drills or mill cutters, what you want is a Morse taper milling cutter holder, which is solid and has a precision hole to put drills or mill cutters into, with a setscrew to hold them in place in the Morse taper holder. You grind a flat on the drill/cutter to recieve the setscrew, flat should be angled so the drill/cutter tightens if it tries to come out from drilling /cutting force. This also needs a drawbar, most Atlas use 3/8" coarse thread. Make from all-thread and some nuts and washers if you are crude. I have made them from old MT#3 drill shanks, they are soft on the inside and can be cut off where the drill portion ends and bored true and reamed to hold a cutter snug, can't have any looseness here. Steve ------- Date: Fri, 01 Mar 2002 05:15:27 -0000 From: "chris111148198" Subject: Re: Re-finishing flat ways > I've been wondering about having an Automotive machine shop pass a > flat-wayed bed across the grinder he uses to true-up engine heads. > Any thoughts on this? John Been watching this thread on getting a bed reground. I would think twice about sending lathe to auto machine shop. The type of grinding equipment in machine shops is geared so as most operations are idiot proof. I do not mean to say that all shops are like this. What i mean is that valve grinders, head resurfacers, and such are made so that the operator has only to put the head in and take off enough to clean up. Where as a lathe bed can have wear most likely where the carriage was running (or twisted). So, if I was grinding it I would go to a real grinding shop and tell them you want it ground first with the flat side down and shimed where the bed has been worn (where the carriage was running). If this is not done the electromagnet will pull the bed down AND WHEN IT IS RELEASED IT WILL SPRING OUTWARD. After the bottom side is done I would tell them to dust the flat side to clean up. You could mic the width, if it is only a couple thou I might be inclined to let it go . To grind the edges requires the grinder hand to clamp the bed against a couple of large angle plates. Again you are at his mercy, because he will have to indicate the inside rail surfaces parallel . You might also mic the rails seperately micing under the head stock and at the ends as the tail stock rode on the inside. You can mike the edge thickness after he completes the top. If you want the bottom edge ground it will be another setup (more money). I would not do this unless it was really worn. As far as price 75$ ought to be for about i hr for top and bottom. Almost retired grinder hand Chris Miller ------- Date: Fri, 01 Mar 2002 07:23:37 +0000 From: Jon Elson Subject: Re: Re-finishing flat ways Remember that you have to get the front and rear vertical surfaces (edge of bed ways) ground not only flat, but parallel, too! These are the surfaces that constrain the carriage front and back, and are actually more critical than the top surface of the bed. Jon ------- Date: Fri, 01 Mar 2002 07:28:40 +0000 From: Jon Elson Subject: Re: Grinding Flat Ways > I have read some posts indicating this had been successfully done. > Since grinding across the flats does remove some metal, there must be > a change in the distance from the top of the ways to the lead screw-- > does this affect how the half-nuts grasp the screw? Is it necessary > to lower the lead screw by the amount ground off the ways? It depends on the lathe. On both the 10 and 12" Atlas machines, it will automatically correct for it. On the 10", the QC gearbox or the reversing box for the leadscrew mounts directly to the TOP of the bed, so it will drop that end the same amount. You need to file out the bolt holes in the right end LS bracket to bring that end down. On the 12", the QC or reversing box mounts to the headstock, which also sits directly on the bed top surface, so it works out the same way. [BUT IN A FOLLOW UP MSG FROM JON]: OOps. In my previous reply, I said the leadscrew (at least the left end) will come down automatically. That's true, but misses the big omission. That is, the rack pinion on the carriage will drop, and the rack WON'T. This is a lot harder to adjust. The only way I know that is easy is to file out the screw holes and holes for the dowel pins, and lower the rack. I have also heard of a method of raising the entire carriage rack drive mechanism by boring out and placing eccentric bushings into the holes for the carriage handwheel, but it seems like this will misalign the way the bracket holds the bevel gear that pickes power off the leadscrew keyway. these are both on the same bracket behind the apron. So, I'm a little skeptical of that scheme. Jon ------- Date: Fri, 01 Mar 2002 13:10:16 -0000 From: "stevenhkb" Subject: Re: Re-finishing flat ways I had a Atlas 42" bed done by a competent grinder shop many years ago, cost an arm and a leg tho, got a decent job. He did top and sides only. You are right about fixturing to avoid changes when the mag is turned off, my shop would not do the underside of the rails because he was afraid of having to true up his wheel too much to achieve a "Square" edge. He didn't realize it did not have to be that square. I hand scraped it to relieve binding at the end of the bed on the underside. Long and tiresome job. I think you handle the change in dimensions by removing shims somewhere to keep the shaft in the center of the half-nuts. Not sure about this. Steve ------- Date: Fri, 01 Mar 2002 14:59:36 -0000 From: "k3vyl" Subject: Re: Grinding Flat Ways I had my TV42 bed reground several years ago. The wear was .004 at the worst spot. The work was done locally, but John at JC Bogeman, a shop that regularly does this sort of thing, briefed me on how it is done. The bottom of the casting must be trued up first,with the bed ways on the table of the grinder. The wear on the bed will not interfere with this since it is only in a small area. The casting is then turned over and the ways trued up. Large angle plates are used to set up for the edges, and this is probably something the engine shop doesn't have on hand. Everything went back together ok with the removal of shims on the rear of the saddle. My machine now has no room for adjustment in that area. The bottom side of the bed was not done, and there is slight wear there. This makes the saddle just a little tight at the tailstock end, but fully functional. I also repaired all the other things that were wrong with the machine, including a very irritating broken bull gear lock. I would say the job was worthwhile. RC ------- Date: Fri, 1 Mar 2002 18:00:24 EST From: LouD31M066x~xxaol.com Subject: Re: Re: Re-finishing flat ways Yeah I got one or two. 1) Engine blocks and heads warp considerable so auto machine shop work can involve removing significant thickness of metal whereas all you may need with lathe bed is to even up lathe bed wear by accurately removing 0.001 or possible a tad more. 2) A surface acceptable to mechanic may be flat to plus or minus 0.001 or even more under a straight edge whereas a surface needed for a true lathe bed my be plus or minus 0.0000 or as close as you can get. The standards of acceptable accuracy between machine tool and products made by a machine tool are all downhill. That is a machine can not produce parts to a higher level of precision than the machine and usually somewhat less. I think you should have a heart to heart to talk with person who is doing the work and discuss whether his machine and standards of precision will result in an improved machine or not. Anyway there is my $0.00000002 worth. Louis ------- Date: Fri, 01 Mar 2002 21:43:46 -0500 From: David Beierl Subject: Re: Grinding Flat Ways 3/1/2002, LouD31M066x~xxaol.com wrote: >Secondly please correct me if I am wrong,but, would't thinning >rails mean you would need to add to thickness of shims not subtract? >Or am I missing something big time? The shims are on the bottom of the saddle, making the opening larger; so if the bed gets thinner you have to remove some to make it smaller. Incidentally, on my 618 I recently removed one of the laminations from the rear of the carriage. I had to add back .001 to make it fit onto the ways again. This has noticeably improved parting off from in front, to the point where I often do it the "normal" way instead of using the reversed-tool arrangement I mentioned a few weeks ago. But I'm still saving up for one of Earl Bowers's lovely table extensions. David Beierl - Providence, RI USA 6 (or 3)" Atlas Model 618 lathe ca. 1941 ------- Date: Sat, 2 Mar 2002 10:57:07 EST From: HUNLEY31x~xxaol.com Subject: Shim question I've taken apart my 101.07403 and have located my problem. No shims under the carriage. CLAUSING list the parts (shims) on their parts list but has no listing on their price sheets. Can I use common shim stock or is there something special about them? Do they go under the carriage or up on the bearing plate? What holds them in place? Thanks, Hank ------- Date: Sat, 02 Mar 2002 11:39:24 -0500 From: David Beierl Subject: Re: Shim question > Can I use common shim stock or is theresomething special about them? > Do they go under the carriage or up on the bearing plate? > What holds them in place? Nothing special except shape, and the original is a laminated pack so you can peel off individual leaves to reduce the clearance. It goes between carriage and bearing plate, increasing the separation. It's squeezed hard between the two, so holding it on isn't an issue. david ------- Date: Sat, 02 Mar 2002 11:48:23 -0500 From: Jude Miller Subject: Re: Shim question The original shims are laminated so that you can remove layers to correct wear of the bed rails. The shims go under the bearing plate. This way if the rail wears 0.002 inches, you remove a layer or two from the shim and the bearing plate is now that much closer to the bottom of the carriage. The shims on the 101.07401 are a sort of flat E shape with several holes. The laminated shim stock is available from MSC for around $15 for a piece 8 x 24 x 0.010 inches, with 0.002 inch laminations. When I adjusted mine, one of the shims had 0.002 inch laminations, but the other seemed to be only 0.001 inch thick. It was really hard to peel off that one. You could figure out the thickness you need and make it out of regular shim stock instead. I suspect that this will last practically forever in the home shop. Best, Jude Miller ------- Date: Sat, 02 Mar 2002 14:03:01 -0500 From: David Beierl Subject: Re: Shim question (Jude, David) At 01:08 PM 3/2/2002, HUNLEY31x~xxaol.com wrote: >> I think I understand. Very odd as I have no shims at all and can slip a .003 feeler gage under the carriage at the ways (if I lift hard enough). By your description the shims are removed to reduce play, I need to add shims on the other side of the bearing plate to close the "gap," to the ways. I'll have to take it apart for another look. << Make sure that there isn't a shim pack stuck to the carriage -- it's not very obtrusive and mine was stuck tight. >> *** It's always something***. Do you think I can mill off a couple of thousandths in the appropriate place on the bearing plate and start over with a new set of shims? Is .003-.004 worth the trouble? << On my stiff-as-a-noodle 618, removing .002 from the *front* then putting back .001 so I could get the carriage on the ways made a noticeable difference. Or at least I noticed one, whether it was there or not. Parting off seemed to become more possible. I'd been doing it from the rear, with an upside-down tool. Great results but very inconvenient. Now I don't seem to need to do it that way so often. I also have a feeling that it improved chatter in general, but that one's not so clear-cut. Using proper way oil (Vactra #2) certainly helped -- I can keep gibs tighter and still be able to move things. >> I'm kinda new at this stuff. << ditto, even though it was my grandfather's lathe and I grew up with it. Gradually getting better at it. Right now I'm struggling with using the milling adapter which waves around like a stalk of wheat in a stiff breeze. david David Beierl - Providence, RI USA ------- Date: Sat, 02 Mar 2002 15:46:11 -0500 From: Jude Miller Subject: Re: Shim question (Jude, David) > description the shims are removed to reduce play, I need to add shims > on the other side of the bearing plate to close the "gap," to the ways. > Do you think I can mill off a couple of thousandths in the appropriate > place on the bearing plate and start over with a new set of shims? > Is.003-.004 worth the trouble? I'm kinda new at this stuff. I had about 0.003 play at the front of the carriage and about 0.002 at the back. Parting is noticeably better since I thinned the shims, and there seems to be less chatter as well. I ended up a little tight on the front side after I removed two layers of shims, but one hundred passes back and forth by hand fixed this. I had to add a little way oil every few passes. I came to the same conclusion you did about the bearing plate. I only have about 0.004 left on the front, and I might want to grind the bed some day. I thought that milling the appropriate amount off the part of the bearing plate that contacts the shim, i.e. the inner half of the top surface, would let me do this. In your case, I would try measuring the play with a feeler gauge, then mill off maybe 0.0015 extra. This will let you use standard 0.001, 0.0015, or 0.002 shim stock instead of laminated. I wouldn't take more off the bearing plate than you have to. Good luck, Jude Miller ------- Date: Sun, 03 Mar 2002 00:58:27 -0000 From: "dkosciusko2" Subject: Re: Shim question (Jude, David) > I think I understand. Very odd as I have no shims at all My lathe came with 0.010" of shims between the carriage and the carriage bearing plate. If you have no shims, there must be noticeable wear in one or more of four places: 1. the outside edge of the top of the ways; 2. the outside edge of the bottom of the ways; 3. the carriage bearing plate where it contacts the bottom way; or 4. the carriage where it contacts the top way. The simplest way to correct for that much wear (if it really exists) is to have 0.005" ground/milled off the TOP of the carriage bearing plate where it contacts the shims BUT NOT WHERE IT CONTACTS THE BOTTOM OF THE WAYS. Removing metal from the carriage casting anywhere is not a good solution. To check quickly for wear on the ways measure the thickness of the outside edges of both ways every two inches from headstock to the end of the lathe (past the tailstock). The wear you are indicating your lathe has will show up in the differences. No differences, no wear on the ways. ------- Date: Sun, 03 Mar 2002 02:16:03 -0000 From: "turbervilleg" Subject: Re: Shim question (Jude, David) I was curious about the wear on my ways and checked it in several places. The worst variance is .003". I know this is 3 times the factory specification, am I in big trouble or is there hope for this bed? As a beginner I don't expect I'll be able to produce work much better than this anyway, at least until I learn a thing or two. I saw the earlier discussions on bed grinding, is there a recommended shop who specializes in repairing these Atlas beds? thanks, Greg ------- Date: Sun, 03 Mar 2002 07:04:25 +0000 From: Jon Elson Subject: Re: Shim question > Can I use common shim stock or is there > something special about them? Do they go under the carriage or up > on the bearing plate? What holds them in place? At least on the 10 and 12" Atlas-made machines (the 07403 is a 6", I think?) The shims are between the bottom of the carriage and the gib plates that ride on the underside of the bed. These keep the carriage from lifting up off the bed. The laminated shims have .004" laminations, so I trim them anyway with aluminum foil (slightly over .001"). What is your problem? The carriage is able to lift up off the bed? If the shims are already out, then you may be able to turn the gib plates around or over to get a new, unworn surface. You may need to add shims back to keep it from binding at the extremes of travel. Common shim stock will work fine, you have to carefully make two holes for the screws to clear. If the holes are too small, the screw threads can grab the shim and distort it, which will make the gib plate sit crooked or just too far from the bed. Jon ------- Date: Sun, 03 Mar 2002 07:08:29 +0000 From: Jon Elson Subject: Re: Shim question (Jude, David) HUNLEY31x~xxaol.com wrote: > Do you think I can mill off a couple of thousandths in the > appropriate place on the bearing plate and start over with a > new set of shims? Is.003-.004 worth the trouble? It sounds like your bed may have been reground. You will have to either mill the underside of the carriage or the part of the gib plate that faces it, so the part of the gib plate that bears on the bottom of the bed will be closer. Jon ------- Date: Sun, 3 Mar 2002 09:32:26 EST From: HUNLEY31x~xxaol.com Subject: Re: Re: Shim question (Jude, David and all) THE END You were right, they were there, just hard to find. Looked like they were covered with some type of shellac. I made the proper adjustments and all seems well. Just in case your interested. The ways were measured and found to be .001 off on the front near the headstock, not bad (better than my ability). I removed one .003 shim from both sides. That tightened the saddle nicely. Two more shims left maybe 3. Now to find a Band-Aid, getting low, time to replenish. Thanks again for your advice. Hank ------- Date: Sun, 03 Mar 2002 07:30:26 -0800 From: mark Subject: Shims and way-grinding [NOTE TO FILE: Also see Mark's original post here 13 Oct 2001.] A few months ago, I posted my notes on these topics. My 6-inch was somewhat worn near the headstock, so it was either sloppy there or wouldn't move past the 6-inch-away position. Set it up on a friend's big mill (his surface grinder wouldn't quite reach), and used flycutters - did a great job. The surprises came in the form of warp, probably from the original machining of "green" castings that relaxed later. As much as 7 thou bowing, front to back as well as vertically. The cross slide had 3 thou or more; the compound was fine. This also meant carefully rechecking the way THICKNESS (bottom to top) as both bottom and top needed skimming to take out warp, and the bed will flex a whole lot if you secure it to the mill table (or grinder mag chuck) carefully. Hold-downs will definitely give you a warped bed! No problem with the rack at that level of skimming, but the plate bearing on the way vertical surface had to be made narrower, as it wouldn't let the vertical clearance be reduced. I have to say that once I got the fussy gibs set up, it became a wonderful machine, no vibration, no surprises from grabbing, which was happening before due to the toolbit / workpiece cantilevering the rear of the carriage, which didn't have the right amount of shims in place. So, it's worth the trouble, but a mill will do the job as well as a surface grinder... /mark ------- Date: Sun, 3 Mar 2002 19:06:24 EST From: LouD31M066x~xxaol.com Subject: Re: Grinding Flat Ways Took fresh look at involved parts. You are correct. Thanks for pointing out my misunderstanding. In case of need grinding shim plate would cure excess slop by allowing shims, Another excellent suggestion I had no considered. Good thing this group has savy and experienced folk willing to share or some fools (no names please) would be in deep doo doo. Louis ------- Date: Mon, 04 Mar 2002 01:47:48 +0000 From: Jon Elson Subject: Re: Shims and way-grinding Randy wrote: > Am I missing something, don't these beds that have been ground > or milled still have to be scraped? No. Atlas beds are ground on a huge gantry grinder that grinds several surfaces in one pass. > If they are not scraped how long will they hold their fit? It depends on how well you clean and lube the bed. If you let crud wedge under the carriage and then drag it back and forth, you can have pretty accelerated wear on any soft Iron bed. Precision hand scraping will probably help retard wear a little, and of course a rough milling or grinding job will accelerate wear on the underside of the carriage. > I would think the surface that is left by grinding or milling > would just grind away the parts slide against them. Flycutters can leave a truly mirror-finished surface, with just the tiniest scratches that give a rainbow effect. these tiny scratches may be useful to hold a little oil, just like the frosting on Bridgeports. Proper grinding would use the right grit to leave a slightly rough surface but with no big 'rocks' sticking up to gouge the carriage. You don't want it to look like a hydraulic cylinder rod, this would cause a good deal of stick-slip friction. An expert at grinding (not me) would know the correct grade of grit, depth of cut and feed rates to deliver just the right surface characteristics. It might be necessary to follow up with an India stone to remove loose metal particles and embedded grit. Note that hardened and ground lathe beds are ground as the last manufacturing step. They can't be hand scraped as the material is too hard. Jon ------- Date: Sun, 3 Mar 2002 18:43:25 EST From: LouD31M066x~xxaol.com Subject: Re: Shims and way-grinding According to 1937 Atlas Manual milling, seasoning and precision grinding produced such accurate surfaces that scraping was no longer required. This may or may not be last word on subject, but, who among us feels equipped and talented enough to try to improve beyond grinding by scraping? Iron riding on iron is not best situation even precision ground parallel surfaces which is why oil is used. In theory oil floats the surfaces so wear is reduced to minimum. $0.000000002 worth. Louis ------- Date: Sun, 3 Mar 2002 20:11:37 -0600 From: "jerdal" Subject: Re: Shims and way-grinding > Iron riding on iron is not best situation even precision ground > parallel surfaces which is why oil is used. In theory oil floats > the surfaces so wear is reduced to minimum. $0.000000002 worth Well, oil is certainly used to reduce wear. However, cast iron on cast iron is one of the few situations of like metals where galling is not a big problem. Example. piston rings in your car. Cast iron rings, cast iron bore. Pressure of rings reduces oil film to a minimum, in fact some rings are used to scrape off the oil. Yet the engine runs thousands of hours with small wear. The carbon/graphite content in the iron has been cited as a factor. Whatever the reason, in repetitive motion situations the iron develops a hard glaze after a while, and wear drops to nearly nothing. Hopefully your carriage does not move enough to develop the glaze very fast! However, for other usages, it is worth remembering that cast iron can run on cast iron just fine. Jerry ------- Date: Sun, 3 Mar 2002 21:32:36 EST From: LouD31M066x~xxaol.com Subject: Re: Shims and way-grinding Okay sounds good to me, I always think in terms of brass or bronze bearings and galling metals like stainless steels. There had to be a good reason why lathes and other metal working machines don't have dissimilar metal shoes riding on ways. I notice my cross slide seems to run a little on rough side so maybe way oil would be appropriate when I finish reconditioning and reassembly. I had discussed earlier making a brass gib for cross slide and it seemed to be an idea with some merit. Louis who has lots left to learn ------- Date: Tue, 05 Mar 2002 17:10:29 -0000 From: "k3vyl" Subject: Re: Shim question I know that brass shimstock is almost always used on this type of thing, but it has one problem, compression. Stainless steel shims are a little harder to cut, and will cut your fingers smartly, but the compression problem isn't there. People who do laser alignment use them exclusively, to get the repeatability needed for that type of work. I have found they make life easier in any application. RC ------- Date: Mon, 04 Mar 2002 19:28:11 +0000 From: Jon Elson Subject: Re: Shims and way-grinding Randy wrote: > Thanks to everybody that answered my questions. Now some more questions >> No. Atlas beds are ground on a huge gantry grinder that grinds several >> surfaces in one pass. > If grinding is the method of choice now why do companys like South Bend > still grind and scrape beds if you send them back for truing or have > I heard wrong. The Atlas factory had a machine especially built to grind their beds, and it was only used to grind NEW beds, and the settings were never changed to regrind old beds. That would have been difficult, as it ground several faces at once. Atlas is a different class of machine than the higher-end South Bend, LeBlond, Clausing, Monarch, etc. machines. > Talking about those that have been sending their beds to automotive > shops to be ground. I have had a lot of blocks and heads milled over > the years and I would not want that surface finish on my lathe bed. Heads are usually flycut, not ground. The grooves are supposedly desirable to give the head gasket something to grip. Clearly, NOT a good finish for sliding surfaces. >> Note that hardened and ground lathe beds are ground as the last >> manufacturing step. They can't be hand scraped as the material is >> too hard. > Are these hardened beds so hard that carbide won't scrape them? I can state clearly, from current experience with a hardened bed, that a sharp carbide scraper will just glide over the surface no matter how hard you press down on the tool. If there are ridges left from grinding, the scraper will slice them off, but once you get down to a relatively smooth surface, a carbide scraper blade will not remove any material with any technique that I tried. (I didn't try real hard because I didn't expect it to work, and didn't want to destroy my blade.) I am repairing a hardened inverted-vee lathe bed using manual techniques. I first cobbled together a travelling grinder from the tailstock base, compound slide and a toolpost grinder, and reduced the error in the ways to a small amount. I am now using a die grinder and Cratex polishing wheels to remove material in a manner much like hand scraping. I use a straightedge and hi-spot dye, but grind where the blue transfers. it is pretty tricky, as I have to worry about height variations, front-back variation, and 'tilt', and get all 3 things to be the same over the length of the bed. I use a dial indicator and a master precision level with a block made to match the underside of the carriage, and ride this block along the ways. It is a VERY slow process! Jon ------- Date: Tue, 05 Mar 2002 20:45:15 -0000 From: "mdedlow" Subject: Re: Shims and way-grinding > If grinding is the method of choice now why do companys > like South Bend still grind and scrape beds if you send > them back for truing or have I heard wrong. Only someone on the inside could answer authoritatively for any given company, because it's not simply a matter of technological capabilities, but rather a complex of factors, including performance requirements and characteristics, capital/labor tradeoffs, aesthetics, etc. Until fairly recently (20-30 years) technology was a big factor: it was difficult-to-impossible to hold grinding tolerances in the few tenths range, as needed for the best machine tools. Nowadays it's possible, but still expensive. A super-precise way grinder costs hundreds of thousands to millions of bucks. You have to keep it very busy to make a return, which probably means working in a production line. Obviously South Bend has this equipment and capability, since that's how their new lathes are made, so in theory they could use it on rebuilds as well, but it's probably more economical to use manual scraping for the varying bed sizes and alignment needs of the here-and-there rebuild work. Also, as has been alluded to by others, scraped surfaces make better bearings than ground surfaces, which is an issue independent of the flatness precision. If you grind to near-tenths tolerances, you're producing a finish somewhere the 5-25 microinch range, which means you're approaching the smoothness where stiction can become a real issue (try to slide two pieces of glass against each other with a film of oil between them). So, the ideal surface is not a perfectly smooth and flat surface (like glass), but rather a surface with many small flat-topped hills and valleys, for example where each hill and valley is maybe 1/8"-1/4" square, and the height delta between them a few tenths, and where the tops of the hills are in a perfectly flat plane. The hilltops are the actual bearing surfaces, and the valleys are the lubrication reservoirs. As the two parts slide past each other, the oil does not stay in the valleys, but rather moves around over the hills from valley to valley by virtue of the combined effect of the pressure in the valleys and the adhesive and cohesive properties of the oil. In this way, a thin film of lubricant is always present between the bearing points (hilltops) of the mating surfaces, and thus the metal surfaces are not actually in contact at all (this is idealized of course) You cannot achieve this property by grinding, regardless the tolerances of the grinding. This is one reason super-precision slideways are often still hand-scraped, although note that they are precision ground first for flatness, and then scraped for bearing. In the old days, the first scraping steps were for flatness and alignment. That type of scraping has all been replaced by modern precision grinding, except for hobbyists and small scale machine rebuilders. But it's not the only option for super-precision ways. Very common these days are precision ground metal ways with self-lubricating materials like Turcite on the sliding member, which eliminates the stiction problem and addresses the lubrication issue in a different way than traditional oil-bearing. And then there's aesthetics. Most people find hand scraping more attractive. If you had the choice between a hand-scraped and a ground surface at the same cost, which would you buy? What if the scraped item was 2% higher? 10%? 50%? Forty years ago tool manufacturers went to considerable lengths to make their tools beautiful. Sadly to many, this is no longer true. And don't forget performance requirements and economic feasibility. Does a hobbyist's 6" Atlas need the ultimate in slideway precision and durability? In beauty? Can it be justified economically? Realisitically, careful milling is adequate for the average 6" Atlas user. I don't claim this to be the last word on the subject, but I hope it adds some perspective.... Mark ------- Date: Wed, 06 Mar 2002 06:51:42 -0000 From: "mdedlow" Subject: Subject: Re: Shims and way-grinding >>>> If they are not scraped how long will they hold their fit? >>> It depends on how well you clean and lube the bed. >>> If you let crud wedge under the carriage and then >>> drag it back and forth, you can have pretty >>> accelerated wear on any soft Iron bed. > You can line one of the surfaces with Turcite. It's used on > many new machines. There's no metal to metal contact. True, but potentially confusing, inasmuch as it might be interpreted to mean that Turcite eliminates the crud/wear concern, which is not the case. Eliminating metal-to-metal contact doesn't eliminate wear, nor the fact that crud in the ways accelerates wear. In fact, Turcite is softer than iron and accordingly, wears even faster. So crud in Turcite accelerates wear even more than in iron. New machines that use Turcite go to greater lengths to protect against crud (e.g. bellows) than old-style machines did for exactly this reason. On the plus side however, the wear is on the turcite, which can be more easily replaced/rebuilt than the metal side. Turcite has other nice properties too, like reducing stiction, some shock absorbtion, etc. But it certainly doesn't eliminate wear. -------- Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2002 14:34:32 -0000 From: "wjw2000athotmaildotcom" Subject: Atlas 6" tear-down I picked up an old 6" (I think) Atlas bench lathe at an estate sale back in November. The bed is 36" long. Anyway, the prior owner must have been the original owner. It looks like it was bought in the 40's or 50's, and never oiled or cleaned. I don't see a lot of wear on the bed, but a lot of little dings and dents. I think the guy used it mostly for turning wood, and a few bronze bushings. So, I just started tearing it down to clean things up. Any suggestions for taking care of the the dings and dents in the ways? I don't think it needs to be scraped since there really isn't much wear. Also, are parts (like the lead screw, change gears, half-nuts) still available for these lathes? ------- Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2002 10:24:00 -0500 From: "Fred & Liz Lusen" Subject: Re: Atlas 6" tear-down You may want to measure the distance from the center of the spindle to the bed. I do not recall that Atlas ever made the 6" with a 36" bed. I may be wrong. Fred Lusen ------- Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2002 15:47:08 -0000 From: "outlawmws" Subject: Re: Atlas 6" tear-down I wouldn't worry too much about indentations, The thing you want to watch is the raised areas caused by the dings. I used to take care of a precision co-ordinatograph, which was a flat bed tool that measures and cuts high precision artworks for the I.C industry. (I doubt many are left, computers have taken over.) This is how I maintained the ways on that machine. I would cafully, very carefully, use a soft akansas oil stone to remove the raised areas. Don't let it dig further into the surface. use a new stone that is flat, old ones will have been worn concave and will not do the job, they will do more damage. Atempting to remove the indentations completly requires a complete cut evenly across the full length of the ways. Not a job for an amatur. But that's my limited eXperiance with a specialized tool. Any toolroom people have any comments? About my sugestion or alternatives? Outlaw ------- Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2002 09:59:09 -0700 From: "Bob May" Subject: Re: Atlas 6" tear-down I'd stone down the peaks that stand proud with a fine stone and leave the bed at that. Try to keep from hitting all of the bed while you do this. You can also scrape the area but that can make for little cups wherever you do this. The little holes won't make any difference to the work produced. Bob May http://nav.to/bobmay NEW! http://bobmay.astronomy.net ------- Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2002 19:51:31 -0000 From: "outlawmws" Subject: Re: Atlas 6" tear-down > You may want to measure the distance from the center of the spindle > to the bed. I do not recall that Atlas ever made the 6" with a 36" > bed. I may be wrong. Fred Lusen Fred, My (former) gunsmith had a 6" with a 36" bed. Either Atlas or Craftsman, I misremember which. I noticed it because it was a little brother to my 12" Craftsman/Altas, without the power feeds and fewer gear choices. A nice hobbyist's machine. Outlaw ------- Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2002 23:19:38 EDT From: LouD31M066x~xxaol.com Subject: Re: Re: Atlas 6" tear-down I am a ltttle farther down trail in rebuilding my 6 inch Craftsman Atlas. If my experience is any guide the more you look the more you find wrong. I might suggest you contact Clausing/Atlas and order the parts list, catalog and price list. For a nominal sum plus phone call you will be able to recognize, identify and price (if need be). A complete disassembly, a through cleaning and evaluation may reveal much that lay hidden beneath years of neglect and dirt. Caution: It is possible you have a parts lathe that will be worth more as parts to others than the cost of replacement parts will make lathe worth to you. If bed is as you describe it may not be up to snuff for precise work,but, perfectly ok for less demanding work. The only way to find this out is to let the lathe tell you by giving it some work to do and seeing how well it does it. If it meets your standards well and good. If not get back to the group and describe results obtained and ask what is ailing and how to fix it. I am sure you will get several knowledgeable opinions that will not agree 100% but will lead you in the right direction. Good Luck and welcome. I have two Craftsman/Atlas lathes and (6 & 12) and the little one with all the problems has taught me more and given me greater challanges. Makes life a little more interesting to try turning the sow's ear into the silk purse as the old saying goes. Louis ------- Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2002 08:23:51 -0400 (EDT) From: Art Breslau Subject: Spindle Q's Assisting a friend rebuilding a 12" change gear model, The spindle is deeply scored in several places inside the nose as if square stock was forced in. What acceptable dimensions would running a #3 MT reamer in too clean it up be? Run out is < .005, indicator barley wavers. Thrust nut looks like some one took a pipe wrench to it in the past, tho it came off easy when set screw was removed. Timkin bearings are quiet, gave good oiling before trying to rotate. No wicks in oil cups so it drinks oil, with small amount leaking out at 6 o'clock position from front bearing cup. Is this result of too much oil or indication of problem. Thanks in advance.. ArtB.. ------- Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2002 10:08:43 -0400 From: Chabannes Rene N Contr ASC/YCD Subject: RE: Spindle Q's If it were me, and I has access to a #3 Morse taper reamer, I would attempt to remove the high spots only. If runout near the spindle was still over a thousandth or so, I'd look into cleaning it up with a boring tool if I did anything at all. Given access to a machine shop, other options occur to me, again assuming I did anything. I don't know how close a given spindle taper hole on these machines should be in the first place. Zero runout would be nice near the spindle, But..... I'd be more concerned with chuck runout. That can be addressed much easier. Rene ------- Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2002 18:23:34 +0000 From: Jon Elson Subject: Re: Spindle Q's Art Breslau wrote: > Assisting a friend rebuilding a 12" change gear model, The spindle is > deeply scored in several places inside the nose as if square stock was > forced in. What acceptable dimensions would running a #3 MT reamer in > too clean it up be? If the grooves are deep, it would be better to regrind the taper using hi-spot dye and a known-good master to get the taper correct. You use a toolpost grinder or rig a Dremel or air-powered die grinder to perform that job. You set the taper with the compound rest, it takes a fine touch but is not that hard. > Timkin bearings are quiet, gave good oiling before trying to rotate. No > wicks in oil cups so it drinks oil, with small amount leaking out at 6 > o'clock position from front bearing cup. Is this result of too much oil > or indication of problem. You need wicks to keep a steady, slow, iol flow. It is just an indication the oil is going in all at once. Get some large cotton shoelaces like for tennis shoes, and cut off a piece. Jon ------- Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2002 18:30:01 +0000 From: Jon Elson Subject: Re: RE: Spindle Q's Art Breslau wrote: > Thanks.. Were these spindles hardened? > Correction on my part, should have read: Run out is .0005, indicator > barely wavers. Measured against register. Wait a minute! This is meaningless, in reference to the spindle taper! You should use a dial indicator (a dial TEST indicator works better) inside the spindle tape to check the taper quality. You can also check the side of a good quality center just past the spindle nose to see if it sits well. Jon ------- Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2002 18:28:03 +0000 From: Jon Elson Subject: Re: RE: Spindle Q's I wouldn't mess with it. I might use some hi-spot dye and see if there are any ridges at the edge of the grooves, and remove them with fine sandpaper. Otherwise, unless there are a lot of grooves, and centers don't hold well, I'd leave it alone. The spindles are NOT hardened, to the best of my knowledge. They are made of a fairly hard steel; there may be some light heat treating that was done, as the Timken bearing seats seem to be fairly hard (I had to stone off some ridges made when grit was dragged onto the seating OD of the spindle when changing bearings) but I don't believe they are what is normally called hardened. Jon ------- Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2002 20:59:10 -0500 From: "jerdal" Subject: Re: Spindle Q's The best idea is NOT to use a reamer at all. The reamer will bounce off high spots, and try to put low spots opposite them. Not good. And getting it accurate enough to not run eccentric may be an issue. Find the high spots, and stone them down to level using something like a stone off a brake hone. Stay off any good areas. Highspot blue, or permanent felt marking pen on a good taper like a center will tell you when you have all the raised areas stoned down. Grinding the whole taper correct can also be done, if you have the ability to grind to an acceptable accuracy and to the depth required inside the spindle. Often the compound travel is not enough to get down to the end of the taper in one pass, and getting the angle right can be a problem also, unless your indicator has long reach. The low spots, while not desirable, are not your problem. High spots keep tools from seating, make centers run eccentric, etc. To test for general runout, mount the indicator on the headstock (not the bed) and arrange the measuring tip to run on the inside of the taper about 1/4 inch or a bit more in from the mouth. This should tell you if it got bent, pouched out, or just gouged. Jerry ------- Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2002 22:35:50 EDT From: Sagebush9x~xxaol.com Subject: Re: Spindle Q's Mine was similarly buggered in the spindle taper-looked like somebody ran a boring bar into it. I borrowed a #3 Morse reamer & VERY carefully cleaned up the taper, w/the end of the reamer in a tailstock center. Came out good-holds the center sleeve w/no perceptible runout. ------- Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2002 05:48:25 -0000 From: "rweersing1947" Subject: Re: Carriage saddle question "gerry_brwn" wrote: > bought an Atlas QC 54 and can participate. When I take off the carriage I usually take the tail stock off, take the right lead screw bracket off, engage the carriage lead screw feed and crank the carrage to the right to pull the lead screw out, disengage the carriage lead screw feed and pull the lead screw out to the right, then crank the carriage to the right and pull it off the right end of the ways. It usually takes me about 5 min and I take it off often for cleaning. Hope that helps. Bob ------- Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2002 22:41:54 -0500 From: "jerdal" Subject: Re: 109 stuff Well, I don't think (having had one) that the 109 are worth heroic efforts to restore. That said, a few ideas: 1) Bent spindles are common. New spindles are makeable. In fact, you CAN make a new spindle on the 109, using the bent spindle you have! The only issue is the woodruff key, and that can be cobbled. Key is to turn your own spindle center in place. Rather than try to make a 0MT taper, I would drill and tap a short rod for the spindle thread. Drill and tap from the side for a rod to use as a dog driver, then screw the driver rod in and the whole thing on the spindle nice and tight. Remove the driver rod temporarily. Then set the compound to the half-angle, and work a 60 degree point onto your rod piece, taking care to start so you won't cut it off the end of the spindle as you cut the taper. The resulting center is perfectly on-center for your machine, provided you don't take it off. A new spindle can now be turned on centers to the OD profile, and with care, worked down to a smooth 0.550 diameter on the running bearing areas with fine single-cut file, etc. Either leave enough stock for a pointy center on the nose, or not, if you want to drill. Once the setscrew flat is cut, you need a key. Drilling several holes and filing with needle files can get you there, with care and time. OR, just drill several holes, insert pins, and file to straight sides and 1/16 height. A pain to file the slot, and not nearly as good with pins, better to beg for some milling elsewhere to put in the key. Once the new spindle is installed, you can finish your nose center, or try to form a good taper for a thru hole and taper seat. I would do the nose center, leaving enough for several turn-downs as it wears. I made one on a 10" Logan with milling attachment. complete with keyway, thru hole and 0MT socket, but you have to accept some lack of facilities if you make one on the 109. It wll take just short of forever, due to light cuts, but you can do it. 2) Chucks can be had special from both Sherline and Taig, for 1/2-20, unless you decide as I did to make it with a 3/4-16 nose to fit standard from the same sources. 3) Unthreaded chucks can be fitted using backplates turned on the 109. I know, I did it. 4) Threading gears are same as Atlas 6", they are the same stock numbers from Sears, although you will be going to Clausing. 5) Good luck with the half-nuts, dunno what to suggest except brazing up and re-cutting thread on another machine. Or epoxy, although I don't think it will work, due to oil in the pores of the iron. 6) Most parts and accessories you make yourself. Several articles in Home Shop Machinist and/or Machinist's Workshop have plans for stock parts and accessories. More plans are in the two AAdocs files. The kicker is, I think I would sell it as parts and use the money towards a small SouthBend, Logan, or Atlas Craftsman. Jerry ------- Date: Mon, 13 May 2002 18:41:12 -0000 From: "markzemanek" Subject: Clausing now sells plastic! Yep, that's right. I ordered a gib for my cross slide last week; it arrived today, and it's made of what appears to be nylon!!! They charged me $12 plus another $5 to ship. I'm very disappointed. Would you: a) send it back? b) just go ahead and use it? ------- Date: Mon, 13 May 2002 13:56:53 -0500 From: jmark.vanscoterx~xxamd.com Subject: RE: Clausing now sells plastic! Use it. Modern plastics are often very impressive. Mark V.S. in Austin, TX ------- Date: Mon, 13 May 2002 12:37:33 -0700 (PDT) From: Don Smith Subject: Re: Clausing now sells plastic! I purchased a gib for the compound on my 10" Atlas and also received what appears to be some type of nylon material. I put it in my compound and just as I thought, it`s a piece of crap. I left it in and tightened down the gibs adjustment screws after centering the compound, so at the moment I`m unable to use my compound until I can either locate a "real" gib or make one. Regards, Don Smith ------- Date: Mon, 13 May 2002 16:00:38 -0400 From: David Beierl Subject: RE: Clausing now sells plastic! >Use it. Modern plastics are often very impressive. But not this time. I put a steel gib in my milling adapter and it stiffened it up amazingly. The plastic gib is a dumb mistake on Clausing's part. david ------- Date: Mon, 13 May 2002 16:46:48 -0400 From: "Ebower" Subject: Re: Clausing now sells plastic! You paid for it. It will cost you more to ship back. My 3950 (1977 square head version) came with nylon gibs and they work fine. May be I should start charging more for the gibs I sell. Made of either brass or steel. Earl bower machine ------- Date: Tue, 14 May 2002 09:16:18 EDT From: Sagebush9x~xxaol.com Subject: Re: Re: Clausing now sells plastic! Plastic gibs were OEM on my 101.28990 12", so don't be too hard on Clausing for selling you one-that said, I made new ones out of brass, & it helped the rigidity noticeably. -------- Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2002 00:34:48 -0000 From: "chris111148198" Subject: Re: Atlas Gears, Vibration Today i called up Clausing to order some new gears for my th-42 , I guess is a 10-f . Some of them were getting worn pretty bad , was afraid that I might break them and then really have a expensive mess. At the same time i ordered 5 more to make a complete set for metric threading. So, I asked the lady why a 60 tooth gear was $9.29 and a 54tooth was $29.45 . Well it kind of susprised me but she said that the 60t gear was old stock that was left over from 1981- 1982 when they quit production and the 54 t was made recently at 2002 prices and also she added they had to make new patterens .(I would have expected that she would have said , I have no idea , i just do as i'am told ) So , I'am posting this so that if anybody needs any , they might think of getting them before existing supplies run out. I got a bunch of gears when i bought this lathe , did not know if they were left over or weather the lathe had been converted over from a manual gear change. Does anybody know how to tell the difference? I have a model 1500-1570 series quick change gear box. I have had a vibration problem pretty much all the time since i got this lathe . Went through the all the past posts re: vibration and chatter, Read and learned a lot about the little things that can snowball into big vibrations checked all but to no real success . So i said yesterday it is fix it or sell it or part it out. The first thing that i did was check te gibs as once in a while i would see movement betwen the cross slide and the saddle( By squirting oil on slides) when cutting , I would readjust gib to the point of hardly able to move croos slide to get rid of this condition. What i discovered is that there was no clearance on the sharp female corner left side of the saddle dovetail also the gib ws almost razor sharp also. I checked this corner interference with pressin blue , I filed the cross slide and gib to a .o40-.050 flat The compound dovetails looked a lot better , they had a little radius on them filed lightly on them also and rechecked with bluing. The next that i found was that thecircuular hole in what the atlas book refers to as the upper swivel # 10-302 was machined through to the dovetail ways , this was ok but the male circular dovetail was too high , it came thr=ough the dove tail ways . Stoneing the ways of 10-302 i was hitting the top of the male circular dovetail of 10-301. So i filed the top of male circular dovetail to gain clearance . The third thing was the set sdrs. on the 9-109 race that supports the counter shaft were not thight enough, this was my fault as i had tightehed them previously and was afraid of thightening them too tight as deforming them .i tightened them quite snug and it relieved a lot of the vibration. I guees it should not susprise me as Atlas went to the trouble of balancing the pullies i guess that vibration was paramount on their minds . The lady that i bought this lathe off of was the orginal owner , her husband died so i'am quite sure that this machine was not remachined , It was obovious that he was too much of a butcher when it came to machineing. So now i can take .040 cut on 1.0 crs with no chatter , Still would like to get it a little better. using Phase II quick change Guess i went on long enough Chris ------- Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 00:08:10 -0500 From: Jon Elson Subject: Re: 618 shims n5fee wrote: > I am putting my Atlas 618 back together after having the bed ground. > I am trying to figure out how much shim I need under the front and > back of the carriage. I have been using small pieces of shim stock > to see how much I need in each location. You generally don't shim under the carriage, but between the carriage and the apron, to align the leadscrew half nuts. > I have figured out pretty > close what each thickness should be and I now need to make several > shims with the correct outline and mounting holes to install. > I have been able to carefully cut out the correct shape but I am > having trouble making the bolt holes in the .005 thick brass shim > material. Does anybody know a trick to punch a clean hole for a #10 > screw in the thin brass shim material? one way is to drill the right size hole in two steel sheets. Drill 2 other holes some distance away and bolt them together with a piece of the shim stock between them. Now, you have a clamp with aligned holes in them. mark the shim stock, position the clamp over the mark and squeeze the assembly in a vice such that the hole is still exposed. Now, you can easily drill the brass without shredding it. You will still have some burr at the edge, but it should be easy to sand or file it down. Jon ------- Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 11:15:27 -0400 From: Alex Barrie Subject: Re: 618 shims try a hollow punch on a block of metal or hardwood Alex 1965 Myford ML7 1944 Myford "M" and a barely usable Atlas Mill ------- Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 10:39:33 -0700 From: "Bob May" Subject: Re: 618 shims Considering the thickness, even a paper punch will easily do that thickness. Better is to make up a punch for the size you want by using a pair of plates with a hole the size you want to punch. The two plates are aligned with a pair of pins and then you drop a pin through the punch hole and just pop the hole out. I might note that the plates should be good steel and, if you plan on a lot of holes, harden the bottom plate and the pin. The pin should also be cut at a slant so it shears rather than pushes the whole hole out. Lastly, a quick tap with a hammer will flatten out the sheet after the hole has been punched. This will knock down any high spots from the operation. Bob May http://nav.to/bobmay NEW! http://bobmay.astronomy.net ------- Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2002 12:18:06 +0100 From: "Ernest Lear" Subject: Removing a Spindle from a 10F Lathe Can any one help me with this? I'm trying to remove my Timken Bearing Spindle from the head of an Atlas 10F Lathe without much success. The following bits have been removed: - The 2 guards over the gears, the rear collar (9-32), Spindle gear (9-100-32), Spacer (10A-6), Dust cover (10A-3). The 2 setscrews I have also removed from the collar left of the pulleys (10A-89) and in the large spindle gear (10-241). After placing two pieces of wood to stop the spindle assembly moving right in front of the large spindle gear and behind the head casting, I tried to tap the spindle from left to right with a piece of wood between the end of the spindle and the hammer. I'm using a 2lb hammer and so far no way will it move. Can someone who has done this before, tell me how big a hammer or how hard to hit it. I just don't want to damage the spindle or any thing else around it. Regards Ernest ------- Date: Thu, 08 Aug 2002 13:38:35 -0000 From: "latheplaya" Subject: Re: Removing a Spindle from a 10F Lathe If memory serves, move everything inside(collar, pulley, bull gear) to the left and remove the key under the bull gear. There is just enough room to remove the key with a pair of needle-nose pliers. You can also pry out the 10A-3 dust cover from the right side. What happens is the No. 15 woodruff key won't pass through the 10A-7 baffle. Mine came out with the 10A-9C bearing stuck to the spindle. If your 10A-11C bearing is seized to the spindle, you may want to place the whole thing in the hot sun and pack the left side of the spindle bore with ice. You want the bearing warm (expanded) and the spindle cool (contracted). You should be able to drive it out with a 24oz hammer and a block of wood without too much exertion. Cheers, Derf ------- Date: Thu, 08 Aug 2002 15:45:09 -0000 From: "jeeceeca" Subject: Re: Removing a Spindle from a 10F Lathe Ernest, look on the 990-359 step pulley for a setscrew there for oil purpose. Remove that setscrew, sometime some previous owners screwed it too far. You have to slide (bull gear) #10-241 oposite to the tailstock. On my Atlas QC54, the 10A-7 baffle have a notch on north west position to permit removing of the spindle with the woodruff key if key is seized. The bearing 10A-9C have to be free and the setscrew on the 10-241 bull gear removed. Think I will help. Charles Atlas QC54 Canada ------- Date: Fri, 09 Aug 2002 07:20:20 -0400 From: Ronald Thibault Subject: Re: Re: Removing a Spindle from a 10F Lathe >move everything inside(collar, pulley, bull gear) to the left and [SNIP......] You should be able to drive it out with a 24oz hammer >and a block of wood without too much exertion. Cheers, Derf Just a note: Use light taps and slowly move the spindle, do not be heavy handed! Ron Thibault ------- Date: Fri, 09 Aug 2002 13:19:19 -0000 From: "tomin130" Subject: Re: Removing a Spindle from a 10F Lathe "Ernest Lear" wrote: > Can any one help me with this? So far so good. Everything you've done is just as the Atlas manual says. Maybe this will help. The setscrew in the large gear was tightened enough to raise ridges on the spindle that are interfering with the inner diameter of the gear. Also, the spindle key may have been jammed into the gear's keyslot by a crash. You will have to beat on the left end of the spindle a bit with the hammer/wood block, but it should come out. Make sure, as suggested earlier, that you remove the key as it comes out of the gear or align it with the notch in the 10A-7 baffle if there is one. After you get the spindle out, grind down the high spots until the gear is a nice sliding fit. When I reassembled mine, I cut a short piece of 3/16 round brass rod to go between the setscrew and the spindle. This should prevent damage to the spindle. The only function of the setscrew is to prevent side-to-side (axial) movement of the gear and it doesn't have to be any more than snug. The key carries all of the torque. HTH. Tom Jenks ------- Date: Fri, 9 Aug 2030 11:40:17 -0500 From: "Microsoft mail Server" Subject: Re: Removing a Spindle from a 10F Lathe First contact Clausing Service Center at joldsx~xxclausing-industrial.com Request Clausing Engineering Dept. be contacted for factory spindle and bearing removal instructions specific to your model lathe. The instructions about using wooden wedges iare only general instructions, and may not apply to your lathe . I found this out for my model 3950 Atlas 6 inch (MarkII in British classification) lathe. These wooden wedges instructions did not apply. I prevented a lot of damage by finding this out first! Also go to www.timken.com They have lots of free literature on bearing removal, installation and care. These bearings are in tight. In my case I had to get a 20 lb lead hammer. This thing is the size of a sledgehammer and hard to control. The soft lead is supposed to prevent damage. Practice hammering on something of no value first, to build skill. One miss, and you may destroy your headstock!. Lighter hammers have little effect. I tried a 4lb steel engineers hammer to no effect! Even with the 20 lb lead hammer, it was slow work. You will to make some kind of wood box to catch the spindle as it is removed. Otherwise it may fall on the lathe bed and damage it severely. HTH James Sprott -------- Date: Fri, 9 Aug 2002 22:26:26 -0500 From: "jerdal" Subject: Re: Removing a Spindle from a 10F Lathe > If a hammer is what is needed then the heavier the better > (as far as inertia goes). > Brute force is usually not the best alternative unless > the next destination for the intended victim is the scrap heap. FWIW, Logan recommends a "hammer" to disassemble the spindle. But the hammer is to be wood, which will not deliver race-brinnelling impacts to the bearings. Use of a regular hammer is best followed by the replacement of bearings. Yeah, yeah, roller bearings can take a lot of abuse, sure, that's right...I still would not use a hammer. Jerry -------- Date: Sun, 25 Aug 2002 18:35:13 -0400 From: "Gary Parrish" Subject: Re: Removing headstock pulley on late model Atlas 6"? >>>Anyone know if there are instructions (or have instructions) on removing the headstock pulley/backgear on the late model Atlas 6" (square shaped headstock model)? TIA <<< I don't have the parts list before me, so I don't know the correct name for the parts but here goes: Remove the headstock cover. (Naturally). Remove the drive belt. Disengage the back gears. Remove the retaining lock ring that fits inside the locking collar and in a groove around the spindle using lock ring pliers. Remove the locking collar BEING VERY CAREFUL NOT TO LOSE THE SPRING LOADED DETENT BALL AND THE KEY. Remove the second (inside) lock ring. Slide the Pulley/Gear off of the spindle. As they say - reassemble in reverse order! Watch out for that spring loaded detent ball. I hope you do not have to replace the pulley/gear assembly as I just did. It was about $160 from Clausing, but it did appear to be made of better material. Gary ------- Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 00:24:46 -0500 From: Jon Elson Subject: Re: Dinged bed ways mhannah100x~xxaol.com wrote: >>I just bought a model 101 Craftsman lathe to replace one that I lost in a fire. I probably paid WAY too much for it, but I thought it was in perfect condition until I got it home and took a closer look. The ways of the bed have some dings in them, where it looks as if it was used as an anvil. They're not major damage but need to be massaged a bit since I can feel high places while rubbing my finger across the spots. Would some light, cafeful filing followed by fine sandpaper be the appropriate fix or is there a better way to repair this *rash*? << Arrgh! Don't use a FILE! Get two bench stones or small sharpening stones. Put light oil on them, and rub them together for a minute, flipping them end for end every few rubs. With a little care, you will end up with two pretty flat stones. (Okay, purists, I know that using only two stones can develop concave and convex surfaces, but we're just trying to get local smoothness, here.) Now, take one of the stones (fine side, if they are combination stones) and very lightly rub it over the spot, with a film of oil on the stone. Clean the bed with a cloth and observe the pattern the stone made on the bed. If it appears to be taking off a little material around the dimple, then you have a good match of the stone to the bed, repeat until the rubbed area widens a bit. Now, you can take magic marker, or Prussian Blue pigment (also sold as Hi-Spot) and wipe it over the entire area. If you have a known flat object, like a precision-ground machinist's square, you can lightly rub this over the area, and see where the magic marker is wiped off. That indicates the remaining local high spot. You can repeat the process until there is no detectable high spot. The low spot at the center of the ding can't be fixed easily, but will not lift the carriage and thus cause errors. Dropped lathe chuck keys are a frequent cause of this sort of damage. Dropped chucks can do it too, of course. Jon ------- Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 10:14:41 +0200 From: "Guillermo Contreras" Subject: Re: Cross feed nut I would not buy. Not that there is a problem with this its just that there are SO many alternatives to this that it would be a waist of $50 that could be spent on something else... Several options have been presented and recently I tried one published in MEW mainly, boring out the inside of the nut leaving just 1 1/2 (or less) threads at each end. Drilll though the mounting spiggot untill you reach inside the newly bored section. Grease the crossfeed screw and screw the nut on up to the half of the screw. Before you cast the material, heat up the nut/screw assembly. Hold the assembly as best as you can with the drilled spiggot facing up and using high temp ceramic, creat a funnel round the spiggot and close of both ends. What you are looking for is to creat a funnel in which to cast in low temp melting metal in a safe manner; you can find low temp metal in many spec. cats. such as Micromart. This material wears very well and its easy to work with; ideal for this sort of repair. Pour in the molten material through the drilled spiggot and let it set. It's important to use a low temp. material that will not shrink when it solidifies. Once cooled down, try to loosen the nut; it will take a blow or two using a soft Nylon mallet but you will be happy to disc that there is no slop at all. I have used this system on all my repairs, its easy quick and safe. No special melting setups are needed. All this said, I am now in the process of replacing the entire Atlas cross slide with a T slotted cross slide sold by Metal Lathes Acc. and have decided to use the Myford setup i.e. it uses an Acme right hand screw of correct pitch. This will mean that the nut will have to be mounted where the collar assembly goes now; it will be a 2 sections to take up any backlash and eventual wear. I have cast a cross slide bracket similar to the Myford to hold the collar and handle, all of this runs in axial bearings very smooth indeed. There are many advantages to this system. Will keep you posted! ------- Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 00:03:11 -0500 From: Stan Stocker Subject: Re: tailstock taper cleanup selder_97205 wrote: > Does anyone know of a good way to clean up the taper in my craftsman > 12x36 lathe's tailstock? I believe that it is a 2MT. > I am thinking that maybe there is a special reamer. I have a few minor > scratches inside and am not sure if I even should bother. Thanks, Steve If a nice clean MT2 center seats with a nice "plonk", and stays in place firmly enough (when firmly pressed into the ram) you need to retract the ram to allow the tailstock screw to pop the center out it's fine. Burrs or pips tend to be a problem, minor scratches usually don't effect things much if at all. There is a lot of contact area in a morse taper. If the center doesn't seat in the ram nicely, you use an MT2 finishing reamer. The import ones from Enco were made in Macedonia when I bought my reamers and have been very nice, can't swear their current offerings are still as good. Finishing reamers look like a normal tapered reamer, just in this case the taper is MT2. There are also roughing reamers for Morse tapers, these have steps in the cutting edges rather than a continuous cutting edge. Enco sent me an MT3 roughing once in error, it just isn't one of those deals where turning gentler will make a finish cut. Had to send it back, they sent me the correct item. Though I'd mention this to avoid you getting messed up should Enco make this mistake if you order one! Taper finishing reamers need lots of heavy oil, firm to heavy pressure as there is a lot of cutting area if you aren't just cleaning off little bumps and warts, and must (like all reamers) never be turned backwards. Reversing a reamer tends to chip the edges as they are unsupported when turned the wrong way. Remove the absolute minimum material required to get a nice seating of the center, even if this means leaving a few scratches or grooves in the taper. Removing just a few thou will allow a center to seat deeper in the ram by a noticable amount. Shallow tapers are quite sensitive positionally, a 12 thou increase in diameter moves the center about .1 inch deeper into the ram, so don't get excited when reaming a taper :-) Most tapers I've cleaned up have only needed a few turns of the reamer to take a center nicely. Cheers, Stan ------- Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 10:02:49 EST From: AtlasTV48x~xxaol.com Subject: Re: tailstock taper cleanup I've used spray on contact cement (because it is thinner) to glue emmery cloth to a taper and turned it with a chuck in the spindle. Dave... ------- NOTE TO FILE: There are proponents of using reamers and others who argue that hand use of a reamer may do more harm in removing concentricity if not done precisely. Commercial Morse taper socket cleaners are perhaps less aggressive in metal removal than the reamers. For a Morse taper arbor shank to enter properly, you really need to worry only about the bumps, not the scratches or pits, in the Morse socket or on the shank. A few burrs or bumps might easily be removed by scraping those spots without any danger of misaligning the taper. Since scratching or galling is most likely caused originally when the Morse arbor slips within the socket, some cautious old time methods of prevention of slippage involved: - always removing all lube from the shank and socket first, - optionally wrapping the Morse arbor shank with a single layer (NO OVERLAP) of cartridge paper (thin writing paper) before placing the arbor snugly into the socket. ------- Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 20:03:23 EST From: cmiller231x~xxaol.com Subject: Re: Vibration update Hi group, just wanted to let everybody know what i found with the vibration problem with my 10f-42 1) bent jack shaft ( bent .010)Replaced with piece of Thompson shafting 2) jack shaft pulley bent , rebushed it and recut pulley v's on arbor 3) circular dovetail on cross slide bottoming out in compound , cut .020 off of top of circular dovetail, did not really need .020 but wanted clearance. 4) sharp corner of cross slide gib interfering in dovetail of cross slide , filed .03 flat on gib. I also replaced both belts with link belts . Bolt that applies pressure to motor was missing , Still not sure if i intalled bolt correctly to apply pressure to motor , but motor is tight now,I can now take .80 per side on ! 1/2 o-1 , no vibration ! Not sure of speed as i have to make new motor pulley as orginal was missing , Had a 4 " on for this test ( Back gear , 2nd lowest speed)( using tailstock)Turning light blue chip , I'am HAPPY! Could see no point in pushing it any farther . All in all quite happy now ,IMHO definately feel the interference in the circular dovetail to cross slide and the interference in the gib to cross slide dovetail were factory defects , Don't know how much they contributed to vibration but they Defineately showed up with pressin blue . I know i don't contribute as much as i should, Hope that this will help some body else . I want to also thank the group for all their input Chris -------- Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 02:03:57 EST From: anthrhodesx~xxaol.com Subject: Re: shaft bearings run out (craftsman 101.07403)? In a message dated Mon, 25 Nov 2002 18:17:17 -0600, Rodent writes: << Most real lathes have a standard taper in the spindle -- I think the 6" Atlas is MT #2 and the 10" Atlas is a MT #3. Find an old wore-out drill or reamer with the same taper as the spindle and use it to check for slop. >> Also, the 6" lathes have a spindle through bore just over 1/2", on the larger models it's just over 3/4". Get yourself a piece of round stock according to the size of the through bore - long enough that when it just extends out the tail of the spindle it will stick out the nose by as much as the lever arm you want to use. This was suggested as possibly two feet for the 10" lathe. Setup your dial indicator so that it bears on the colar of the spindle nose. Note the DI reading. Then gently lift up on the bar as you watch the DI, when it stops at a new reading note the reading. Might as well try pushing down on the bar to see if the reading changes from the neutral reading. Now reset the DI in a horizontal mode and go through the procedure again, pushing the bar to the rear, then pulling it to the front. Don't yank on the bar, and you're not trying to lift the lathe with the bar, you don't have to bend the bar, all you're trying to do is determine how much free motion there is in the spindle bearings. On any of the lathes using roller bearings there should be *very* little free motion, almost none. The babbit and oilite spindles will have a bit more but if you run through this procedure and are concerned, don't panic. Report your procedure and results to the group and get some knowledgable feed back. Anthony Berkeley, Calif. ------- Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 06:24:20 -0600 From: "Randy Pedersen" Subject: Re: Re: shaft bearings run out (craftsman 101.07403)? The saga continues Jon: to check the play in the Timken bearings you don't need to apply enough force to deflect the bed. Just enough to over come the play in the bearings. This is from the Atlas headstock spindle adjustment instructions. 1. Slide collar L against shoulder of spindle and lock in place. Move pulley-gear assembly against collar and slide large spindle gear D against pulley and tighten set screw in gear. There should be a slight amount of clearance between the pulley and the large spindle gear to permit pulley to turn freely. 2. Tighten collar B until all lateral (end) and radial (side) play has been removed from spindle. Check by tapping spindle back and forth with the hand. Do not tighten too tightly -- spindle should rotate freely. 3. Pre-load spindle bearings by continuing to tighten the threaded collar B approximately 1/16 turn (equivalent to two spindle gear teeth). There should be a slight drag felt as the spindle is rotated by hand. This is important because as spindle and bearings warm up, the spindle expands laterally approximately .002". Tighten set screw in collar B. Randy ------- Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 05:46:31 -0000 From: "John" Subject: Thanks for help on 101.07301 and new question Thanks to the ones who helped this new member with the cross-feed nut problem. I located new nut at Clausing. In the meantime I used JBWeld to form new threads on the old one for now. I am amazed at how well it came out. Probably won't last like brass, but I can do it again if needed. BTW the area code has changed for Clausing. The number is now 574-533-0371. ------- Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2002 21:44:57 -0000 From: "Nick Martello" Subject: L3-58 Gear Bracket I have a Craftsman Atlans 1934 12 X 48. Well, I thought everything survived the move from Atlanta to Ct. but no joy. Starting up my lathe tonight for the first time, I noticed the gears wouldn't move. I just thought they were out of adjustment. However, I discovered the gear bracket had a crack right on the end of the long finger. (L3058 is the two fingered version, not the three finger.) I have posted two pictures under photos/12" lathes/Craftsman. One called L3-58 and the other showing a close up of the crack. Needless to say, there is no way to tighten up the square head bolt that holds the upper gear as the broken end of the finger opens and lets the square head bolt turn. I assume this is a cast part and can't be welded. Correct? If it can't be welded, does any one have one for sale? Would Clausing have one? Thanks, Nick in Middletown, Ct. ------- Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 00:13:22 EST From: anthrhodesx~xxaol.com Subject: Re: L3-58 Gear Bracket Are you certain that you can't substitute the three slot version? I know that the locking bolt for it goes at the back of the headstock, is there already a hole there? I ask about this because I know that on the 6" lathe the banjo is locked with a pinch bolt around the end of the lead screw bearing, a very unsatisfatory arrangement. In the Modeltec series on building a QC box for the 6" lathe the author provided a banjo similar to the three slot one for the 12" lathe. I don't remember how he provided a locking bolt but it was in the same area as the one for the three arm banjo on the 12" lathe. Does anybody have the Modeltec articles that they could scan he page that shows the banjo and post it in the photo section, possibly under 6" lathes? If you do so let us know about it and where you put it. << Needless to say, there is no way to tighten up the square head bolt that holds the upper gear as the broken end of the finger opens and lets the square head bolt turn. >> For a short term remedy you might try drilling a hole across the bracket very near the end. Put a small machine screw through and pinch it together. You might lose a small length of the slot but you don't often need the very end. << I assume this is a cast part and can't be welded. Correct? >> I've seen cast iron welded. Not by me but it can be done. Ask around locally. << Would Clausing have one? >> Fairly likely. Anthony Berkeley, Calif. ------- Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 08:44:35 -0500 From: Chabannes Rene N Contr ASC/YCD Subject: RE: L3-58 Gear Bracket I just looked this part up on the Sears site and it is what I thought it is. It's made of cast iron (or similar) and can be brazed (not silver). Since you ask the question, I assume you aren't familiar with brazing. If it was mine, I'd file a notch at the crack on two or three sides to allow surface area for the braze to hold. Leave enough in the center to maintain the current shape/dimensions of the part. Then get someone to braze it for you. In fact, I'd check with them before doing any filing/grinding. Once brazed, you can file the braze back to the original, or close shape. I wouldn't weld something this small. If they should weld it, make sure they normalize it afterwards - otherwise, it will break like glass right next to the weld. Brazing is probably best. It's a simple fix I'd try before buying or making anything. Rene N. Chabannes (Titan) ASC/YC - Production Operations C-17 SPO, WPAFB, OH 937-255-1042(DSN 785-1042) ------- Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 15:00:33 -0000 From: "elperkins2003" Subject: Re: L3-58 Gear Bracket Rene, I second the thought. I have bronze brazed (not welded) cast iron on several occasions with an oxy-acetylene torch and had excellent results. I used fluxed bronze rod that is available at Home Depot. The technique can be used to repair half nuts, cast iron gears and all kinds of cast iron parts that might otherwise end up in the junk pile. I have also brazed all kinds of wierd stuff to cast iron C-clamps to make special jigs. Perk in Cincinnati -------- Date: Sat, 30 Nov 2002 02:31:01 -0800 (PST) From: gauge-onex~xxwebtv.net Subject: Re: L3-58 Gear Bracket This part is cast iron and can be welded... just use wire or rod that is intended for cast iron. When I got my lathe the gear quadrant had four welds on it... sloppily done, but it was strong enough. Another of my lathes had a cracked quadrant. That one I silver brazed... afterward I re-blackened it and you could hardly see the joint. My current Atlas 10" is perfect and I am very careful... those quadrants are fragile! If welded up cracked parts bug you, quadrants/gear brackets do come up on eBay now and then... you can repair yours until you find an unspoiled one (I'm pretty sure they're not available from Clausing anymore...) ------- NOTE TO FILE: WELDING QUADRANTS OR GEAR BRACKETS. Another posting with detailed how-to is found below on 14 Sep 2005. ------- Date: Fri, 06 Dec 2002 22:58:58 -0000 From: "brewerpaul" Subject: Help fix stupid mistake on my 6" ! How dumb can I get? I was turning a piece on my Sears 6", and left something in the path of the carriage feed crank. Turned my back, heard a sickening sound, followed by a sharp snap. Cut to the chase- I took the carriage off ( not easy) and found a broken off tooth on the pinion that meshes with the rack under the ways. I took off the bearing that carries that pinion, along with another one on the other side. From the Atlas manual, it looks like the smaller( broken) pinion has the shaft attached, and the other pinion is pressed onto it. I have found the appropriate parts in the Clausing catalog ( dang! it's Friday night , and I'll have to wait til Monday to order them). My problem right now is that I can' seem to separate the two pinions. Tried driving the shaft out of the larger gear with a pin punch, but I don't want to risk damaging the undamaged gear or the bearing. Any ideas how to get them apart? As long as I have the carriage apart, is there anyhthing else I should replace? I thought about the split/half nut, but at $50 ish, I think I'll wait. E-mail response greatly appreciated. Thanks a lot. Paul (brewerpaulx~xxaol.com) ------- Date: Sat, 7 Dec 2002 00:34:13 +0100 From: "Guillermo Contreras" Subject: Re: Help fix stupid mistake on my 6" ! Paul, I had the exact same problem with my 12" Atlas but I was not the one to make this mistake as it came like this when I purchased it 2nd hand. I tried everything but with no result. It then occurred to me to hold the part by the larger undamaged pinion (use copper strip for protection) and slightly faced the other end (offending pinion). This seemed to correct any slight "riveting" action that the end of the shaft could be producing as a result of deformation during the pressing of the pinions. After this, the parts came apart very easily; they also went back together very tightly when the new pinion came in. Beware, these pinions are not keyed, they are pressed on to the squared end of the shaft! On my lathe, all these parts were steel and it did not take me long to discover the horrific results of a catastrophic crash suffered by the previous owner who left his lathe unattended; take note, never leave a lathe unattended whilst taking a cut! Rgds ------- Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2002 18:33:24 EST From: JMartin957x~xxaol.com Subject: Re: Help fix stupid mistake on my 6" ! << is there anyhthing else I should replace? >> While things are apart, if you don't want to spring for new half nuts, I'd at least pull them out and clean them well. Use a dental pick to get down into the threads - chips and oil can really get packed in there. If the shaft the handwheel is on is a sloppy fit in the carriage, I would consider correcting that. I don't recall if there is a bushing in the apron, but think there probably isn't. Might not be a bad idea to bore out the apron and install a bushing there. John Martin ------- Date: Sat, 07 Dec 2002 00:45:58 -0000 From: speedphoto300 Subject: Re: Help fix stupid mistake on my 6" ! If you buy new half nuts from Clausing be aware that the ones available now (part number M6-12A) are wider than the plain M6-12 variety, .750" instead of .5", if your half nuts are the narrower ones than either get the M6-13A guide or mill out the guide to fit. I'm glad they increased the length of the nuts, should make them last longer. The half nuts themselves are only $16, you usually don't need the other parts. Joe ------- Date: Sun, 8 Dec 2002 20:53:59 -0600 From: "Paul Siegert" Subject: RE: Spindle damage questions [SPINDLE REMOVAL] Go to the Atlas Lathe Site (www.atlas-press.com and print the Tech Note for removing the spindle and follow it carefully, it works. I removed the spindle from my Craftsman 12x30 last week to replace the spindle pulley assembly and their tech note was excellent. Make sure you get all the set screws loosened before trying to drive the spindle out, and when you put a piece of wood over the back of the spindle as suggested in the tech note, make it's thick enough, and hit it square to absorb the blow of your brass or dead blow hammer to avoid buggering the threads on the back end of the spindle. Only other place I had to stop and think was on removing the dust covers over the bearings that are a tight press fit. After cleaning things up, reinstalling was much easier than taking it apart, except for those dust covers, which I didn't want to dent or mar, and if you are not careful, and get them started crooked, you might have to ding them up to drive them into a seated, straight position. Paul ------- Date: Sun, 8 Dec 2002 23:39:29 EST From: CaptonZapx~xxaol.com Subject: Re: Spindle damage questions mlhannahx~xxcharter.net writes: >When rotating the spindle the bearings are not rough feeling but I read >somewhere that bearings can be damaged by pounding on the spindle. This >one has definitely been pounded on and might have damaged bearings. I >want to take it apart to check them out. Model # 101.28910. Mike Hannah Hie thee down to your local nut and bolt store, and tell then you want a piece of 5/8ths in NF grade 5 all thread, 2 or 3 fender washers and a couple of nuts. Find a hack saw, and go stand in front of your lathe. Now, place the all thread through the head stock, and ask yourself "if I were to put a piece of pipe, large enough for the headstock to slip through, on here, and a nut and washer on here, could I tighten the nuts and pull the head stock out of the head and through the pipe?" Take the hacksaw and go cut a piece of pipe. Oh, oil the threads. And if you have one of those racheting box end wrench, it goes quicker. 8) CZ ------- Date: Sun, 8 Dec 2002 23:39:56 -0800 From: "GSNEFF" Subject: Endmills, Spindles, Bearings and other things that go bump in the night. Sorry for lumping this all together but I read digest mode and it is a royal PITA to split things up ... As to holding endmills in the lathe for the milling attachment, The only really appropriate way to hold them is with an endmill holder. They are cheap, accurate and have a setscrew to keep the endmill from either spinning or walking out on you. You can buy say a 1/2" holder and make sleeves for smaller sizes. Anything much over 1/2" is too big to use in the lathe with much success anyway. To make sleeves just put a piece of 1/2" stock in the holder, clamp it with the screw and bore to the size you need. Then cut or drill through for the setscrew to hold the endmill. For pulling the spindle just get a pipe that fits over the bearing and a bolt long enough to go through the spindle and the short piece of pipe. A heavy washer over the pipe and a washer over the spindle left end ...tighten the bolt and the spindle will slide out ... be sure to follow the rest of the instructions on the atlas website. http://www.atlas-press.com/servicebulletins.htm You are not likely to be able to see a damaged bearing. They are about $20 each at a bearing supply house so the only question is ... is it worth $40 not to tear it apart again if the bearings do weird things?? By all means clean-up of the spindle should be done on the lathe it will live on. The threads themselves are not really critical as long as they are clean and thread onto the chuck/faceplate ok. The registers are all important. One centers the chuck and the other holds it perpendicular to the centerline of the lathe. Dents are ok here but you need to dress down any high spots. As to the 6" lathe headstock bearings ... I had a bronze bushing lathe that I changed over to a timken headstock. The spindles do not interchange but you can make a spindle for the replacement headstock, then install the new headstock and finish the spindle nose on the lathe. The bronze bushings are not split but they are very thin walled compared to a "standard bushing". The spindle for the bronze bushed headstock is longer than the timken headstock. YMMV Glenn Neff Medford, OR ---------- Date: Sun, 8 Dec 2002 20:06:14 -0800 From: "Patrick Lee Rooney" Subject: Joining lathe beds Has anyone on the list successfully joined two lathe beds? The thought of the increased capacity is very appealing, but not at the expense of accuracy. How could one align the ways, and insure stability? Not interested in welding or regrinding one monstrous bed, but would love to have an "add on" for those special jobs. This pipe dream has become a recurring obsession every time I do any axle or driveline mods. I can't be the only one who longs for a bigger tool. Anybody try this yet? Pat. ------- Date: Sun, 8 Dec 2002 22:25:49 -0600 From: "jerdal" Subject: Re: Joining lathe beds Some large lathes in the 50 foot bed type class are made that way, with joinable sections. It is a millwright job to get them aligned. Theoretically there is probably no reason it is impossible, but the leadscrew, rack, etc. would need to be dealt with. The ends would have to be ground to fit, and the rack, etc. joined. Jerry ------- Date: Mon, 09 Dec 2002 04:26:49 -0000 From: "bill_collins14 " Subject: Re: Joining lathe beds Hello Pat.I haven't actually joined two lathe beds together(yet). I have another AA 109 bed I am contemplating joining them together. Some have told me not to weld them but to join them mechanically. Which makes sense. Because welding can distort the cast iron material Since I first got the idea of this project, I have acquired a larger lathe. A Southbend 9"x24" Model C. If for some reason I decide not to pursue the idea,I may use the other bed as a bed for a horizontal mill. There is a group here on yahoo that have had good success extending the beds on the 7"x10"-12" mini-lathe. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/7x24Mini-LatheCNC/ You can get some good ideas from them. Good luck and God Bless. Bill C. ------- Date: Sun, 8 Dec 2002 21:18:33 -0800 From: "Patrick Lee Rooney" Subject: RE: Joining lathe beds I recently came across a new 62" flame hardened bed, and just completed the swap. The tailstock end is indeed ground and fitted with dowels. The old bed is 50" and in decent shape, with the exception of a single sour spot of about 14". Neither end of this bed is ground, but I can't imagine it would be too expensive to have it ground. I wouldn't require the rack or leadscrew to be extended, just that it position the tailstock accurately. Glad to know it isn't beyond the realm of possibility. Pat ------- Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2002 02:28:06 -0500 From: "mertbaker" Subject: Re: Joining lathe beds There's an "extension lathe bed" in the catalog for the Atlas 618. Mert ------- Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2002 10:10:58 -0800 From: Frank Evan Perdicaro Subject: Re: Joining lathe beds Lathe bed joining is not a common happening, but it does happen. The way the ways are made on an Atlas, it would be pretty easy to use a standard woodworking trick to get the ends very close. Clamp the two beds on a mill so ends almost meet, and the two are in a line. Leave a gap slightly less than the width of a sharp multi-flute endmill. For example 0.020 under for a 1/2" endmill. Then pass the endmill between the beds, close to centered in gap. Even if the beds are not perfectly aligned, the nature of the cut makes it so the pieces will mate with almost no gap. ------- Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2002 15:47:39 EST From: LouD31M066x~xxaol.com Subject: Re: Joining lathe beds I have not done or considered doing this so following is conjecture... 1) Locate a specialist grinding shop ie the grinding shop the machine shops send their work to. Ask around or use yellow pages to find shops doing this work. Interview shop and determine: a) do they have a grinder with a long enough bed to do job b) what charge would be ( I had my 6 inch lathe ground on all faces for about $80.00 and was well satisfied with work. Be sure to make shop aware that this is a flat bed lathe (might be good idea to take stripped cleaned lathe bed with you). Be sure you understand what you want and grinder understands and can do the job. 2) Get two worn lathe beds (Atlas/Craftsman of course) Have beds ground on all faces of rail to same measurements, match grind ends to each other. Verify height of beds is same. Have tops and bottoms of feet ground parallel and to same height. 3) Obtain leadscrew stock of proper thread long enough to be cut and ground to go from headstock of bed A to bearing of bed B. If rack is important,make some rack teeth to cover gap between beds. Might take some shuffling to get racks to line up. I feel that a solid uniform mounting surface would make or break this project. I would try for something even more rigid than usual. Setting beds and aligning would be critical and worthy of every effort to achieve and verify maintain alignment. Sounds like an interesting project. My bias is toward grinding because A) many Atlas Craftsman lathes are no longer capable of accurate work over whole length of bed B) precision grinding will yield a better than new bed surface C) it can be more reasonable and much quicker than you might expect. Louis ------- Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2002 15:05:32 -0800 From: "Patrick Lee Rooney" Subject: RE: Re: Joining lathe beds I contacted a millwright this morning to ask about the feasibility of such a project. He has performed the task many times in large factories in South America and Mexico, but mostly on machines that are made to be broken down for shipment, and then reassembled on the factory floor ...permanently. Some applications require huge gaps in the bed, while still maintaining precise alignment. "Expensive" and "permanent" are not in the vocabulary for this project. He described the requirements for the job, and both words surfaced many times. He said he gets MANY calls from home shop guys asking to do the same thing, and the conclusion is always the same. Just not practical. Find a lathe that suits your needs. I sort of already knew this. It's just that I hate to take bits of a project into the driveline shop for completion, when I could do it myself given the correct machine. I am happy with the capabilities of my Rockwell and Atlas machines. They do 90% of what I need. Now what to do with this spare bed..... Pat ------- Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2002 18:30:44 -0000 From: "seb fontana " Subject: Re: Joining lathe beds Extending your lathe bed for tailstock use for longer pieces can be done without a lot of effort as long as your base for the main lathe is secure to floor. My first need put the tailstock about 6" out from bed, got it there by clamping flat ground stock to bed to hold tailstock then a brace from "addition" to base to make ridged in up-down direction. Remember that things are clamped, light cuts; use steadyrest if near middle, even if it must go on chuck side of carrage..And if you will use carrage near tailstock end of bed be sure to check ALINEMENT of leadscrew to bed...broke two leadscrew supports because of half-nut defflecting leadscrew. Made new support and shimmed to aline. Next time the need arose I had longer and several different lengths so set up another lathe bed to be able to move tailstock as needed..I slid my drillpress so table could support addition and fixed to floor..clamped tailstock to overhang bed by 1/2 inch and clamped 1/2 inch square x 6" flat groundstock, top and bottom of carrage ways exstending 3 inches front and back of tailstock. Now had receiver for addition [mike bed thickness, use feeler stock to shim bottom as neccessary]..slide addition into receiver and rest on drill table. Can use level for initial adjustment. I bolted 30" of 1x1 bar stock to compound to extend along side of tailstock to reach addition..use indicator mounted to end of bar to read on addition and by moving carrage can indicate bed to aline...once as close as could get, Clamped bed to drillpress table, added clamps at receiver..moved tailstock and clamped short peice of flatground in its absence..could now move tail stock from one end to other just by removing one piece of flatstock and two clamps. I used just about every clamp I had and some I had to make longer -deeper..next time I'll bolt and shim!! Used it for quite a while then discovered that I could weld several pieces [premachined] with no loss of strenght so when I got tired of crawling over the lathe bed on the drillpress I dismantled the addition..I had planned to make some legs fixed to floor to free up the drillpress; and if I had it would still be together...just in case. Seb. ------- Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2002 10:37:19 -0500 From: "mertbaker" Subject: Re: carege woble [ON AN ATLAS] There should be screws under the carriage to take the slop out of it. When facing, even with a nice new machine, always lock the carriage, either with the lock screw provided, or if none, by stopping the leadscrew and engaging the half nuts. These two should cure your problem. Mert MertBakerx~xxprodigy.net ------- Date: Mon, 09 Dec 2002 12:05:40 -0600 From: Jon Elson Subject: Re: carege woble There is a gib with 4 adjusting screws on the back of the carriage to adjust front/back clearance. If the bed is badly worn, you can't tighten the gib or it will bind against the bed at the ends of travel. There is also a pair of gibs on the bottom of the carriage that prevent it from lifting up off the bed. These are adjusted by removing laminated shims under them. Be real careful when reinstalling these gibs. If the screw pinches the shim, it will twist up in accordion fashion and make it much looser. If this has already happened, you can replace wrecked shims with household aluminum foil, at about .0015" per layer. Finally, there is a carriage lock at the right front of the carriage that should prevent sideways movement of the carriage. You lock it with a square wrench. Jon ------- Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2002 23:48:00 EST From: LouD31M066x~xxaol.com Subject: Re: Joining lathe beds Atlas /Craftsman lathes often are worn to point that grinding should be considered even though you may wind up with problems with engaging half nuts,rack and clamping saddle to bed. Nothing like getting freshly ground lathe bed where you know things are flat, parallel and square. The rest can be dealt with if need be. Feet on my 6 inch lathe were as cast where they bolted to lathe bed. This did not seem to me to be kosher so had them ground also. I suggest this be considered by anyone contemplating having bed ground. This all falls under heading of machine rebuilding not making chips,but, if you have a worn out machine your choices are live with something that is not accurate or do something about it. Combining two lathe beds may not be sensible for one or more reasons, but, if you were determined to do it I think it could be done and achieve acceptable accuracy. Louis ------- Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 12:58:00 -0000 From: "mrb37211 " Subject: Re: Joining lathe beds In at least one catalog, Atlas offered an extension bed for the 6x18 for woodworkers. It had the identical feet and was designed to carry the tailstock and be mounted at some distance from the original bed on the bench rather than in contact with the original bed -- at least that is what I gleaned from the picture. The saddle did not travel from one bed to the other, and the lead screw was not extended. One of these was sold on eBay some time ago . . . Charles ------- Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 01:07:22 -0600 From: Jon Elson Subject: Re: Carriage lock for 12" Atlas John Glowacki wrote: >Carriage lock doesn't lock on my AC 101.07403 12x36". My >old parts list shows a bolt, washer, and lock. Can >someone enlighten me as to how this works? The square-head bolt pulls up the lock against the bottom of the bed, binding the bed between that and the carriage. >how do I pull the front off the carriage to do this >repair? I also have to replace the miter gear and stud >that drives the power feed for the cross slide. Mine is >missing. Dad must have figured he could just turn the >handle for facing operations. Unbolt the right-hand bracket for the leadscrew from the bed, then pull the entire leadscrew through the apron, towards the right end. Remove the two huge Phillips screws on the top of the carriage. The entire apron assembly should drop down (be ready to catch it). It will be greasy and hard to hold onto. You should be able to make both repairs or survey the problems in there once you have the apron off. You can check that everything is getting adequate lube, look for cracked or loose parts, etc. Jon ------- Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2002 02:25:49 -0600 From: Jon Elson Subject: Re: Noisy spindle back gear: 12" 101.28990 rocketpsi wrote: >> Is the spindle pulley/gear normally noisy in direct drive (or back gear for that matter)? << Direct drive should be pretty quiet. Back gear on most 10 and 12" Atlas/Craftsman lathes is pretty noisy. A characteristic bell-like ringing is very common, with a little gear grinding in the background. I suspect this is all coming from the step pulley that is spinning on the spindle. Maybe if the bearing there is kept well oiled, it won't get like that. There is a setscrew in one of the pulley grooves that should be removed and oil dripped in before using back gear. There is also an oil screw in the backgear shaft. > I went through all the pulley tensioning >adjustments, the spindle bearings (timken) seem fine. I checked for >loose screws etc. The only thing is that there seems to be slop in >the engaged back gear lock pin- backlash seems about two or three >gear teeth equivalent rotation. Is that normal? I cant imagine that >the loose fit should contribute much to the "tinny slapping" noise, >considering that there would be constant positive force on it. I don't >want to dismantle the headstock if i can avoid it. >I did have a problem with the spindle drive belt pulley, apparently >it had loosened and started "walking" off the countershaft, which >probably put some lateral stress on the spindle pulley. Yup, a standard problem. These Zamak pulleys really should have had steel hub inserts. Once the pulley hole is belled from getting loose, it will KEEP getting loose. The fix is to bore it out and fit a steel sleeve. Jon ------- Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2002 03:56:15 -0000 From: "jmsbacon " Subject: 6800 Quick Change Question I am in the process of installing a QC gearbox (model 6800) on my 10" Atlas lathe. Everything is bolted up and looks good except for the amount of engagement between the tumbler gears and the spindle gear. Only about 1/2 the width of the tumbler gear is engaging the spindle gear. The tumbler gears are too far to the left (away from the headstock)to fully engage the spindle gear. I've looked at all the exploded views that I can find and everything seems to be in its proper place. The tumbler assembly is bolted flush to the headstock so there's no way to move the tumbler assembly to the right. I also can't find any reference to a different (wider or offset) spindle gear to accomodate the QC. The QC will work as is because the tumbler gears are being driven by the spindle gear, but I'm worried that I may eventually strip the gears with only 1/2 the width of the tumbler gear engaged. Has anyone ever come across this issue before or does someone have a 6800 QC on their lathe so that they could take a look at their tumbler/spindle gear engagement and tell me if this is how it's supposed to be? I've spent a couple of hours looking everything over and I can't see any way to increase the engagement short of machining a spacer for the spindle gear to offset it more to the left, but that will then reduce the gear's engagement of the woodruff key. Any help or insight is appreciated! Jim Bacon ------- Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2002 23:54:02 -0600 From: Jon Elson Subject: Re: 6800 Quick Change Question Hmmm, odd. I did the upgrade on a 10" some years ago, and it was a bolt on job. I did have to adjust the little plate with the holes that establishes the gear engagement of the tumbler. If I remember correctly, the headstock can be placed anywhere along the bed with the clamp removed. I wonder if somebody had the headstock off and didn't put it in the right place. It is a tight interference fit between the inner bed ways, so you don't have to sweat getting it out of alignment. Hmmm, assuming this is a Timken-equipped spindle, is there a spacer between the rear bearing inner race and the gear? I think there IS supposed to be a spacer there. This partial engagement probably won't do any harm, as the input gear has the least load on it. As the gears slow down the speed, the force on them increases, so the gears of the right selector tumbler have much more load to carry. Jon ------- Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2002 22:26:30 -0800 From: "Patrick Lee Rooney" Subject: RE: 6800 Quick Change Question Hey Jim, during a complete rebuild of my 10" QC many years back, someone liberated the QC casting, which had just been painted and left to dry in the sun. I managed to acquire another after a long search, and ran into the exact same problem you describe. The spindle gear (9-100-32) seated too far onto the spindle to engage the tumbler assembly correctly. I had taken lots of pics before the teardown, so I know that the original assembly lined up correctly. The replacement QC offset the tumbler gears by over 1/4"! This just had me bewildered. I too was worried about running the gear train with only 50% of the tumbler engaging the spindle gear. I spent nearly an entire day breaking down assemblies, trying to make up the difference. I found that you can't make up for it from the tumbler assembly down, as it throws the rest of the gear train out of alignment. I gained 1/8" by loosening the headstock bolts, and pushing the entire headstock outbound as far as possible. I got the other 1/8" by fabing a spacer to fit between 10A-6 and 9-100-32. The spindle collar now sits flush with the end of the spindle, and I get 100% engagement with the tumbler gears. Not a problem since, and I no longer dry freshly painted parts at the mouth of the roll-up. I could send a pic if it would help. Good luck. Patrick. ------- Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2002 18:40:07 -0000 From: "jmsbacon " Subject: Re: 6800 Quick Change Question Yes, it's a Timken headstock and the spacer is in place between the spindle gear and the bearing. Moving the headstock on the bed won't help the situation as the tumbler gear bracket bolts directly to the side of the headstock. Moving the headstock won't change the relationship between the tumbler gears and the spindle gear. Looks like the best solution is to machine an additional spacer to move the spindle gear a little further out on the spindle. Thanks for the help... ------- Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2002 13:29:09 -0800 From: "Patrick Lee Rooney" Subject: RE: Re: 6800 Quick Change Question Jim...We must have different setups, because I just went to look at mine, and the tumbler assembly IS NOT attached to my headstock. I think they made three or four different QC models (some that are model 15XX). The only thing connecting the headstock to the QC/quad/tumbler assembly, is a HANGER which is connected to the headstock with a 3/8" machine screw and a series of washers and shims. My headstock is retained to the bed by two cap screws, and a larger single bolt and clamp at the working end. The clamp is infinitely adjustable, and the holes in the ways for the two caps had enough slop in them to move the whole thing about 1/8" outward. I then removed the appropriate number of shims between the hanger and the headstock, so that the quadrant would align properly w/o racking. I left the large washer in. This brought the spindle gear out 1/8" IN RELATION to the tumbler gears. Like I said before, I made the rest up with a spacer on the spindle. The QC mounts to the front way with two caps, and is also a somewhat sloppy fit. You might be able to gain some ground there, however, I recall needing that slop to get proper axial alignment of the quadrant. I spent FOREVER with bluing to get everything to work together. BTW, I checked out quite a few machines during this time, and the hangers and tumblers vary between models. The number of shims and washers between the headstock and hanger also varies. One that I looked at had NO shims or washers here, a smaller diameter lead screw, and perfect gear alignment. One word of caution: the quadrant is fragile as hell. Don't remove that spacer and torque down the machine screw unless the assemblies are aligned!!!! Wish I had more info on the differences between models. I think many owners added a QC themselves, so keep this in mind. Good luck. Patrick ------- Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 22:03:12 -0600 From: "jerdal" Subject: Re: Lead Screw > Has anyone ever tried cutting the leadscrew at both ends, flipping end to end and welding it back together to use the normally little used threads at the right hand end? I checked on a new leadscrew for my Atlas 10X54 and they wanted $350. > I have heard of it, and you are better off boring it, and pinning together via a smaller stub set in, as welding won't necessarily get it concentric, even if you pilot pin it. Warp gets you. OR, you could buy the leadscrew material and apply it to your cut-off ends. Good threaded acme rod is available from sources which have been listed here before. Jerrold ------- Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2002 09:31:09 EST From: cmiller231x~xxaol.com Subject: Re: Lead Screw (Acme stock) I have been a non participating member of this group for some time. I read each post with interest, and have picked up a great deal of information. Several times people have asked about sources for new lead screws. I have dealt with a small firm that specializes in Acme thread stock and nuts in Two Rivers WI for many years with good results. They do not cut or machine the material, but do sell UPS able lengths of just about any Acme thread. The firm is: Green Bay Manufacturing 2617 18th Street Two Rivers, WI 54241 Phone: (920) 793-2411 They do not have an internet presence that I know of, so you will have to contact them by phone or mail. I hope this will help, and Good Luck! There was also another message that McMaster has low precision, acme stock, haven't checked myself recently. Chris ------- Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2002 22:43:53 -0600 From: "jerdal" Subject: Re: crossfeed backlash The problem with excessive crossfeed backlash is just that it is a pain in the posterior. Of course it can "easily be worked around", but if you CAN fix it to a decent degree, why "tough it out" spinning the crossfeed twice as much as you need? I have enough workarounds already, dunno about you. I find it a pain when threading, and if milling, so I tightened out the wear on the screw bearings, and got mine from an INDICATED 0.060 to an indicated 0.015. That, as less than half a turn, is OK with me. I say indicated, because there obviously was not that much actual movement in the nut, there would have been no screw thread left, it was just the dial numbers. Fixing it also got me a resettable dial, as mine was not. I made a collar for the dial to run on , which does the actual tightening. When buying a lathe, backlash is a great feature. Just twirl the dial and look annoyed and less than pleased. Start looking at every wear point on the machine. Price may come down as you negotiate using that fact among the others (or it may not, you may just get a lecture like the ones regularly posted on the bbbs when this comes up.). Tricky? Nope, as long as you come to a negotiated sale price without fraud, its just business. And, the wear is actually present, whether you care or not is nobody's concern but yours. Oh, and NUT wear does not mess the dial readings up like SCREW wear. At the transitions between worn and unworn parts of the screw, the dial is wrong. In consistently worn or unworn places it is probably accurate enough. Jerrold ------- Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2002 17:41:44 -0700 From: Steve K Subject: Re: Need opinion on precision level Mike wrote: > Would the Chinese *Master Precision Level* at the link below be suitable for leveling my lathe? Anyone have a suggestion for an alternative choice in the $75. or so range? I don't know what else I would ever use it for so I don't want to spend a small fortune for a Starrett. I just want to get my machine as level as I can without going overboard on cost. I have a machinist acquaintance who would most likely have a good level but I kinda hate to ask to borrow it and I also hate to be responsible for it. Probably be best to buy my own. Any suggestions are appreciated. Mike Hannah < This would work fine, but be aware that there are cheaper ways to "level" a lathe, and in my opinion, easier and more accurate to get a "no-taper" turning (which is the whole intent of leveling a lathe). I think I am accurate is saying that "level" is not the main requirement, getting rid of twist in the bed when the lathe is bolted down IS the main issue. Yes, you want the lathe as level as you can get, but almost any level will get you close enough. A good mechanics quality level works well. What an accurate machinist level does is help you see visually is any twist in the bed. This method works, but is tedious as you begin to torque the hold down bolts. YOu never quite know which way to tighten which bolt, or how much. You can, IMHO, get faster and more accurate indication by using a dial indicator or dial test indicator and a test bar. You simple watch the needle move as you torque the bolts down. BIG HINT: use jacking screws to hold the lathe down.. makes it very easy to adjust the twist out of the bed. 12-20 inches of regular 1" drill rod will be more than accurate enough for a home shop test bar. A good indicator reading to .001, and magnetic holder will cost 15.00 on sale. Put the rod in the chuck, read the max/min runnout at the chuck, rotate the chuck to the midpoint, and run the indicator down the length of the rod (magnetically attached to the apron). Note the indicator tip needs to be on centerline (as close as you can conceivably get it) I was able to get my lathe bolted down with .0003 deviation (yes, thenths) over 10" of a 1 1/4" ground rod on my 12 x 36 lathe. Granted, this is a pretty good lathe (Clausing Colchester),and I probably could have tweaked in even a little tighter. HOwever, at that point I am not sure if what I was measuring is really that accurate. Actual cutting of a 15" long rod (with tailstock support this time) showed less than .0003 difference between the chuck end and the tailstock end. Good enough for me. Or use Rollie fingers method to level the lathe if you don't have a known good rod... Steve Koschmann ------------ Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2002 18:58:03 -0600 From: "Paul Siegert" Subject: RE: Need opinion on precision level That level is a knock-off of one made in Poland that is in the MSC, Enco & several other catalogs, probably in the same price range, or less when on sale, which if they aren't, you can usually get them to match the price on if you point them to the link you are referencing. You can also go to Ebay and get a very good level in the $75 range. I have the Polish one that appears to be the original model of the Chinese knock-off you are looking at. I also have a Starrett Master Level, and six other Starrett levels in various size ranges as well as two SPI levels (which are very good). Having said that, they all, when calibrated (which only takes a few minutes if you know how to do it), produce the results that they are represented at. I'd guess that the Chinese level would probably be very accurate, probably much more so than a six inch or four inch starrett that does not come close to .0005 per 10". I generally use two matching levels at once when leveling machinery, one on the X axis and one on the Y axis. It speeds things up considerably. If you have someone to call the readings while you are on the floor adjusting the leveling pads it goes a WHOLE lot faster. Bottom line is that the level you are looking at will be more than adequate for what you are doing. Other issues as important as the level are the bench or stand you mount it on, the variation and frequency of variation change in the foundation of the floor as the seasons change, vibration and its effect on your overall setup, and the type of leveling pads you are using, as well as the compression effect of anti-vibration materials on the pads themselves. One last thought, if you level it today and use the machine for a couple of hours and check it a week later with a level that has the accuracy quoted on the one you are looking at, the machine will in all probability be out of level, as it is very sensitive. Just my opinion. Paul ------- Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 12:43:10 -0000 From: "yrotc78u212 " Subject: Re: Need opinion on precision level being a machinist in the real world, i looked up some web sites that the home shop machinists have on the internet and was impressed by the pictures of there projects.i give them alot of credit for quality of the finished product and there ingenuity in making parts with limited resourses.there`s a saying,garbage in-garbage out.if you start with a twisted machine tool you get twisted parts.working on parts that are +/-.005 is fine but leveling a machine produces a straight and parallel product.thats what you get when it`s level.leveling should not be over looked no matter what machine tool you have.obviously i would`nt suggest buying a starrett master level thats accurate to .0005 per foot because of the cost but basically that is what you need.bottom line for you guy`s is to get it as best you can with what you have.hope this helps. mark ps. if there are any misspelled words, remember I'm not an English major, just a machinist ------- Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 16:23:42 -0600 From: "Don Feinberg" Subject: Re: Re: Leveling and levels I really wonder about this thread. Before I had any skill at all working with a lathe, I went out and bought a nice 8" master precision level, convinced that I'd need it to get to the precision level I was anticipating. With experience, I have proved myself wrong in two ways: 1) I've found that every physical lathe has a kind-of "inherent maximum precision", based on the grinding of the ways, the accuracy of the carriage, the fit of the headstock, parallelism of main shaft with the ways, etc., etc. It's a real combination of ingredients which leads one to understanding that "you can't machine closer than +/- X thousandths on this machine". Problem is, using the master level, you may well be beating a dead horse, trying to get accuracy simply not available from your machine. 2) I thought that it was important for the bench to be level, the bed to be level on the bench, etc., etc. Then I thought about lathes which are used in the military (like on shipboard, when a ship is at sea, or in slap-together maintenance posts). Those places give very un-level -- sometimes, dynamically so -- conditions, yet machinists are expected to (and do) turn out good work under those conditions. After some thought, I've begun to believe that the absolute level of the lathe (with respect to the earth) is much less important than its relative level -- i.e., the parts of the lathe with respect to one another, and its relative stability (will it hold still while working so you can work safely and comfortably?). Bottom line -- I have a nice master precision level which I've never used! Don Feinberg ------- Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2002 11:43:15 -0000 From: "mfb11 " Subject: sears 109 AA Lathe tail stock Problems? I can not drill a good hole in the center of a piece mounted on the head stock chuck? If I use two dead centers & rular balanced between them / everything lines up. When I put in the arbor & drill chuck & drill bit / the anlinement goes to h_ll? I have mounted the arbor / drill chuck / pointed rod in the head stock & spin against a plate & it swings in a small arc, appox 1/32" . I have mounted a drill bit ( 1/4" )in the tail stock chuck & tried to run it up into the head stock, with no luck / it rubs against the inside of the spindle? How can I check the tube that the arbor fits into on the tail stock? ( I have mounted it in my drill press chuck & spun it by hand / there is a high spot) Can I buy a new piece? I plan to order a new arbor & drill chuck, if the tube is OK? ANY other checks I can make? Thanks in advance for any help / info. Mike in Penn. ------- Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2002 07:28:40 -0500 From: "Dr. Robert Harms" Subject: Re: sears 109 AA Lathe tail stock Problems? The first thing I would do would be to put a known to be good round piece in the chuck and check the run out with a dial indicator. I think you will find that the spindle is bent on the end. This is very common with AA109's but easily replaced. http://communities.msn.com/bitsamotorcyclesandparts ------- Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2002 14:32:00 -0000 From: "mfb11 " Subject: Re: sears 109 AA Lathe tail stock Problems? -I tried it using a piece mounted in a four jaw chuck ( I took a known piece of round stock & faced it off a couple of times & it was the some thickness as I started less the amount cut off ). So I don`t think the spindle is bend? ( I also used a dial gauge on the spindle & it was OK ) Mike in Penn. ------- Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2002 10:16:25 -0600 From: "jerdal" Subject: Re: sears 109 AA Lathe tail stock Problems? The tailstock may be worn so the ram is not parallel to the ways. Extend it fully (but not too far) and mount a dial indicator on the carriage. With the tailstock all the way to the right on the ways (where ways wear is going to be least) run the carriage over and rest the indicator button on the ram. Move the carriage and note any changes n the reading. Ideally there should be no change. Ram and its hole might be worn, or the bottom of the tailstock might be worn. Either causes the ram to sag relative to ways. A bent spindle is also quite possible or even likely on the 109. I think every single one has a damaged spindle, unless it has been replaced. Jerrold ------- Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2002 10:17:21 -0800 From: "Bob May" Subject: Re: sears 109 AA Lathe tail stock Problems? You take a spindly drill bit and expect it to drill the exact center of a piece, especially when the holder for the drill bit is on a whole bunch of stuff which can be all over the place for position? Nah, you don't get there! Start by using a center drill, that little very short drill bit that has the small drill tip on it and then the taper to the larger shaft and you can't drill very far with it. That is the starting point. Rigidity is what gets this bit to work properly as you may drill a bit off-center as far as position, but the drill will open the hole to the diameter plus the offset. This is your starter hole. It, at the least, makes sure that your drill will start on the center of the spinning work. This still doesn't mean that the drill will come out the other end at the center if the depth is deep tho as the typical twist drill can and does wander due to the design of the bit. Bob May ------- Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2002 12:42:43 -0600 From: Jon Elson Subject: Re: sears 109 AA Lathe tail stock Problems? First, the tailstock may not be lining up except when close to the headstock. Second, the drill chuck may not be mounting straight on the arbor, the arbor may be galled or bent, or the tailstock ram may be galled. This is a VERY common problem, as the Morse tapers don't always seat tightly, and then you can spin the arbor in the ram while drilling. The Jacobs taper on the drill chuck and arbor are so short that it is pretty easy to get the chuck jammed on crooked. The only fix for that is to remove the drill chuck, inspect for galling/dings and then reinstall gently with a twisting motion. Then, if it appears to be straight, tap it in with a piece of wood and a hammer. No 109 parts are available, as far as I know. AA has been out of business for decades, and I think Sears either dumped their parts or just ran out. You can check, of course. The Sears service center apparently has exploded parts diagrams to figure out the part numbers. Ridges or galls on the inside of the tailstock ram are real common. If that is the problem, use a Dremel or similar tool to remove the ridge. It is pretty easy if you can get a light to shine in from the other end. The Morse taper has so much contact area, a little removed material will make no difference. You can check for contact area with blue spotting dye (Prussian blue artist's oil pigment) or magic marker. You put the dye on the Morse arbor and wring it gently into the ram. When you pull it out, the areas where the two tapers contact will be rubbed off, the areas where it DOESN'T contact will still have the marking on it. A ridge in the ram will clean a ring on the arbor. When you get the ridge completely fixed, the ring will disappear, and you'll get a wider area where the marking is removed. Anyway, for drilling on the lathe, you should always start with a center drill to put a centered hole in the work. This guides a longer drill bit into the center of the work. A jobber's length drill will ALWAYS wander when entering the work unless you provide a starting hole. Jon ------- Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2002 18:30:03 EST From: HUNLEY31x~xxaol.com Subject: Re: sears 109 AA Lathe tail stock Problems? Bob May writes: << Start by using a center drill, that little very short drill bit I'm new also and don't want to admit how often I mess up a simple hole. The above is VERY true. I even milled half thru a piece to find out what went wrong. I found the drill bent and drilled a curved hole. I didn't think a drill could bend that much, but it did. Seems like the smaller holes give me more grief than larger holes. I'm getting better now that I take my time more. Hank ------- Date: Fri, 3 Jan 2003 22:27:14 -0600 From: "Microsoft mail Server" Subject: Re: Help 6 inch Atlas lathe > I have a 6 inch Atlas lathe model 10100 and > I need some help. When I engage the half nuts to feed the carriage to > the left it works fine. But I when I engage the half nut to feed the > carriage to the right it jerks along. I have put new half nuts on the > the lathe and it worked fine for awhile. Today it has started this new > problem. If I put a little drag on the carrige wheel it will feed fine > to the right. Does anyone have any idea what is going on. Thanks Terry Check adjustments of the carriage gibs. Some screws may be tighter than others. They should be tightened evenly. On the bottom of the carriage is an adjustment screw, check the tightness of this. The tip of the screw may be unevenly worn on one side. It may need replacement. If you have the manual, check the location of the carriage shims. The shims may have worn down and might need replacing. Check the engagement of the gears, they simply may not be adjusted properly. You should have just enough engagement to stick a thick piece of paper between gears. The gear on the leadscrew and the tumbler gears control carriage movement. Again, check the manual for the 10100. Check the little gear on the threading dial. Look for signs of wear. It may not be en gaging properly and is giving false timing on when to close the half-nut lever. The indicator marks are approximate, not exact. The time to close varies with the feed or thread selected. Some require fast closing, some slower closing. You should not have to force the half-nuts closed, they should go smoothly into place. You may have to get a "feel" for the closing speed and timimg. Sometimes just before the indicator mark or slightly after the indicator mark. Then lead screw itself may be worn, since you have new half nuts. Check the adjustment of the new half-nuts. They may be dragging on the leadscrew. Check the lube on the gears. On the teeth and the shafts that the gears turn on. Lube may have dried and hardened causing sticking and inaccurate gear movement. Fresh oil on the shaft parts and fresh gear "open gear" spray lube on the gear teeth. Check carriage gear rack for debris, dried lube, or excessive wear. Make sure you lubricate sliding contact surfaces of carriage and bed ways top, sides, and bottom with "way lubricant", not expedients like motor oil. This will eliminate "stick slip" and dragging, as well as reduce wear. HTH James ------- Date: Sat, 04 Jan 2003 00:40:40 -0600 From: Jon Elson Subject: Re: Help 6 inch Atlas lathe I'm not too familiar with the 6", but know the 10 and 12" pretty well. I would guess your carriage gibs are loose, and are allowing the carriage to twist on the bed, causing binding. See if you can rock the carriage by pulling forward on the left side and pushing back on the right side, imitating the torque the leadscrew would generate when driving toward the tailstock. If you can get the carriage to move that way, you need to tighten the screws on the back of the carriage. But, if your bed is worn in the middle, that may cause binding at the extreme ends of travel. Jon ------- Date: Tue, 07 Jan 2003 12:32:41 -0600 From: Jon Elson Subject: Re: safety Crashdummy653x~xxaol.com wrote: >Hi Jon. Thanks for the heads up. I have an Atlas lathe model TH42 serial # 041998. It has an auto feed and is in fair to good shape. There is some play in the cross feed screw and nut and wonder where I might get replacements. < First, check the adjustment of the bushing just in front of the handle, and take up all the slack there. I have used lathes with a lot of backlash in the cross feed, and I really don't let it bother me too much. But, I believe the Clausing Service center in Goshen, IN has these parts. They may be a bit expensive, though. I made my own screw and nut on a previous (10") lathe. I got them to have about .002" backlash. Jon ------- Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 02:27:34 -0000 From: "alanheff " Subject: 12" bed wear The bed on my 12" Atlas/Craftsman has some wear on the headstock end where wear would be expected. It is more pronounced on the front rail and is ~ 0.003". Have any of you had the rails surface ground to eliminate the wear? Is this possible? Thanks, Al ------- Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2003 22:21:47 EST From: LouD31M066x~xxaol.com Subject: Re: 12" bed wear I can only speak for 6 inch to state it is not only possible but worth- while. I had top, front, back and bottoms ground and expect to begin reassmbly when I get carriage back from grinding. I also have 12 by 36 C/A so I appreciate it is a similar job but on a larger scale. Bed of grinder has to be enough longer than lathe bed to allow grinding wheel to be clear of lathe bed at start and end of each pass. (length of lathe bed plus ?) The work must be set up by someone who knows and cares. If you mention grinding lathe ways they may shy away if they don't understand that Atlas ways are flat parallels not vee ways. You may also want feet ground as (at least on 6 inch) they are as cast. When I got bed back I found bottom of carriage rocked on lathe bed as surfaces that glide on ways were not flat and parallel. I suspect this was not wear-related but the result of less than perfect manufacture. If you have questions contact me off line. Some have mentioned having ways milled, but, personally I like mirror finish from grinding even if final result is no better. Some have also suggested hand scraping either alone or in combination with milling. I recall seeing ads years ago in Detroit Metro area papers for experienced scraper hands. I think it was a dying art form even then. If you have this skill or are willing to acquire it superior results are attainable as I believe you would be working to a higher level of precision. If you ask the group, someone will outline process. When you achieve renewed surface you will appreciate it more than the person(s)who wore it out. The soft cast iron ways need to be protected with clean working practices, generous and timely application of way oil and a cover to keep grit from settling out of air on to ways. Louis ------- Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2003 23:21:12 EST From: n8as1x~xxaol.com Subject: Re: 12" bed wear Louis ....if bed was sufficiently worn to warrant grinding,i wud suspect that carriage rocking IS due to wear .......typical w/ tool pressure as carriage advances.... glad to know u found a capable source ...the originals were ground ,not scraped,..but rather large specialized machine best wishes docn8as ------- Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2003 23:39:33 EST From: LouD31M066x~xxaol.com Subject: Re: 12" bed wear Place where carriage rides on ways still had marks from machining. Did not appear all that worn. But it did rock very noticably. Casting distortion after machining seems most likely source of problem. It is a complex part and possibly stresses locked into metal as it cooled after casting were unevenly released by original machining. In any case we will see if grinding makes it better or worse...cannot use as is. Louis ------ Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 01:24:21 -0600 From: Jon Elson Subject: Re: 12" bed wear alanheff wrote: >The bed on my 12" Atlas/Craftsman has some wear on the headstock end >where wear would be expected. It is more pronounced on the front >rail and is ~ 0.003". Have any of you had the rails surface ground >to eliminate the wear? Is this possible? Yes, you can do this. The trick is that whoever grinds it has to be very careful to not bow the bed on the magnetic chuck or whatever is used to hold it when grinding the top. A common trick is to clamp the bed upside down on the magnetic chuck and the grind the feet first. Then it should sit flat on the chuck when the bed is ground. The wear on the top is minor, and probably doesn't need to be ground unless you are doing much precision work. What is more critical on the Atlas bed is the front/back edges. these are what constrains the carriage in the front/back direction, and controls diameter of the work. If there is a worn spot there, the carriage is necessarily loose at the worn spot. If you try to tighten it, it will bind at the ends of travel. So, the edges of the bed need to be ground at the same time, and without removing the bed from the grinder, so you get a consistant width along the length of the bed. If these edges are worn .003", then you'd definitely want to have the bed ground! Or, you can learn the fine art of hand scraping! All you need is a straightedge, spotting compound and a scraping blade. Jon ------- Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 01:08:46 -0600 From: Jon Elson Subject: Re: power cross feed Damon Gentile wrote: >What's the ratio of power feed to power cross feed ? >Like if the feed is set to move the carraige 0.005" / rev, >and you engage the crossfeed, will it still be 0.005" /rev? The carriage leadscrew is 8 TPI. The crossfeed screw is 10 TPI. But, there is an 8:10 ratio included in the power crossfeed gear train to compensate, so the amount moved per spindle revolution will be the same for either feed. (Of course, on the crossfeed, the diameter cut will change twice as fast as the slide moves.) Jon ------- Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2003 20:35:58 -0600 From: Jon Elson Subject: Zamak repair techniques A guy emailed me today and asked if I was interested in how he repaired an Atlas carriage gear bracket, and I said "Yes, of course!" There it is : I wrote a description of the repair to another Atlas owner and will try to forward it to you. Yes, you may post it or send to anyone. I appreciate you asking first. One thing I would like to add is When using the Ideal Rod follow the directions of the manufacturer as they seemed to work very well. Here is a short description of Ideal Rod Physical properties. Elastic limit pound - 6,600 Elastic limit per Sq. inch - 33,000 Maximum Load pounds - 7,800 Tensile Strength in Lbs per Sq. in. - 39,000 Hank ------- Subject: Lathe: Rack Gear Housing Repair From: Ngtworkx~xxaol.com Hi Ronald, My name is Hank. I just read your webpage and wanted to thank you for all the great info. I particularly was interested in the article on the Rack Gear Housing. I had the same problem with my lathe recently and fixed it before I read your website. My housing looked exactly like yours when it broke. I thought you might be interested in how I did my repair and you could add it to your site or not. After I took the housing off I cleaned it with brake cleaner then washed it with hot soapy dish detergent and rinsed it. After it air dried I inspected the break and found a small casting flaw in the center of the break. I had already determined what had caused the housing to break in the first place. It was due to the mounting screws becoming loose which put the housing in a bind when the carriage was moved. (Moderator's note: This is a classic problem on the 10 and 12" Atlas. Check the screws every few months and keep them tight.) Anyway, I had a piece of 1/4" steel plate that I checked for flatness and found a corner that would work for bolting the housing to it. I located the holes by using a fine tip felt marker and then while holding the housing I positioned the broken leg into place and marked the ID of the last hole. Then I found the center of the elongated holes and center-punched them. I drilled holes just a little over the OD of the screws that were used to mount the housing and used the original fasteners to attach the housing to the 1/4" steel plate. Then I used a 3 cornered file to file a V-notch across the break. When I finished the filing I had a root (opening) of about 1/32" (as I wanted to file through the thickness of the part). After I finished filing the break I mounted the steel plate in my vise with the V-notch in a horizontal position. I don't know how you determined what type of metal the housing was made of. (I have never heard of Zamac) I did not think it was aluminum from the looks of it but thought it was aluminum and some metal I wasn't sure about. Anyway, I had bought some Ideal Rod years ago which I have never used, so I thought since it is an alloy compatible with aluminum it might work to fix the break. So, I tried it.I filed the top of the V-notch on both sides (1/8" along the top of each side to remove oxidation) I then used a propane torch and heated the break to the melting temperature of the rod and then tinned the break first. Then I alternately passed the torch over the break and melted the rod into the break until it was filled. I let it air cool and then used a dremel with a carbide cutter to remove a lot of the excess melted rod and finished with a file to dress it. With the root at !/32" it allowed the rod to flow through some which gave the 90 degree cast angle a rounded fillet. The fillet as well as a little more thickness of metal on the top of where the break was makes the piece much stronger. The Ideal Rod has a very high tensile strength to begin with. Anyway, the repair worked great! Its better than new. The only thing I would do different would be to use one of the small propane (Micro) torches as the one I used doesn't have any tips to attach to it that would make the flame smaller. I almost melted the base material but stopped just in time to add the rod. Also a heat crayon might be good to use as I wished I had one. Oh! one more thing...a small piece of copper would be good to place below the root to keep any of the melted rod from attaching to the gears. Do you know what the gears are made of ? I think they are Zamac too. Anyway that's about it. I hope this helps for any future repairs if needed. If you have any questions e-mail me. Sincerely, Hank ------- Date: Mon, 3 Feb 2003 20:38:06 -0500 From: "Paul & Charlene Wilson" Subject: Re: Re: Long distance diagnosis For what it's worth, I bought a new nut for my cross slide when I first got the lathe and later adapted the old one to take out the backlash. I drilled and tapped a hole on each side of the screw so I could put 2 jacking screws between the 2 nuts, threaded both onto the screw, locked one down (I milled the boss off the old one, but left the flat to keep it from rotating with the screw) and tightened the jacking screws until 99% of the back lash was gone. Overkill, but I had the time and the nut (my wife says I'm the nut ...) I have seen the same thing with a spring between the two nuts. Better, I think. Paul ------- Date: Tue, 4 Feb 2003 20:44:09 -0600 From: "jerdal" Subject: Re: Erratic infeed results > I have tightened up the compound gibs but not the gibs to the > bed. So I know there is some slop there. I even get a different cut if I > hold down on the half nut lever. You will want to adjust those gibs before you wear the carriage to a shape that cannot be fixed without scraping-in. You will get wear on the ends, but less in the middle on the side bearing areas. With it worn bell- mouthed, you will never again be able to get a decent cut on it until it is repaired. Been there, seen that. If you find a considerably different cut going towards headstock vs away from it, you may have this problem starting. It is then adjustment time. That would indicate it is twisting on the bed. > Sometimes it will cut more even if I > don't use any infeed and recut at the same setting, which I believe is > a good thing to do just before reaching the final diameter. This isn't necessarily to do with wear or gibs, it may just be spring in the work. Jerrold ------- Date: Wed, 05 Feb 2003 11:09:51 -0600 From: Jon Elson Subject: Re: Scraping ways Kirk M Scammon wrote: >Jon, I sent Mr. Morgan several inquires regarding his book and videos, >with no response. I am interested in scraping the ways on my lathe and >mill, and was wondering if you know who publishes his book, so I can >get a copy from the publisher or if there is other publications >available, as I haven't been able to find any online. >I already have a 6 foot long 2 inch wide granite surface plate >that would make a great straight edge. I'm afraid he publishes it himself. There are copies around, so you might check eBay or Amazon. One other book I have is Machine Tool Reconditioning, by Edward F. Connelly. It is kind of expensive, but has a LOT of good info in it. This is advertised in the back of Home Shop Machinist, but is available from other sources. I have a Michael Morgan straightedge, but never got my copy of his book. But, I learned how to do it without the Morgan book. The Connelly book is not a text on scraping, but more on how to decide where to scrape to get the right alignment. But, every machine is different, and the plan has to adapt to the wear and shape of the ways. I'm doing a big Sheldon lathe right now, and it has hardened ways, so scraping won't work. I did rough grinding with a toolpost grinder attached to the tailstock base, and now I'm finishing up with a die grinder and Cratex rubberized wheels, which take off just a little material. The problem is that I tried to trust the reference surfaces, which are not supposed to be worn. Well, the may not have wear, but they were either showing sag, or poor grinding accuracy. I foolishly followed those untrue surfaces until it was vastly evident they couldn't be straight, and then had to fix the belly I had put into the ways trying to follow them! UGH! At least, with an Atlas, you have NO reference surfaces to follow all the way to ruin. There's only one top, only one front, only one back, etc. I think the basic plan is to get the top rear surface (the least worn, generally) flat and free of twist, first. Then, you can ride a master precision level across the ways down the bed, and work on the front top way until it is flat and parallel to the back. This will allow the carriage to ride the bed without any twist. Then, you scrape the front surface (generally less wear than the back one) to be flat. Finally, you scrape down the back to be parallel to the front, and mike the front-back dimension so that the ends are exactly the same width. The carriage can be scraped to fit the bed pretty easily. I recommend Canode dyes instead of the Prussian blue "hi spot" dye. The Prussian Blue is a better dye, but it is JUST too messy! It takes weeks to come off your hands, permanently stains clothing, etc. I bought a big bottle of Canode dye from Dapra Co., but they have a $50 minimum. Do you know for a fact that granite piece is truly flat? I have an air bearing beam that should be fantastically flat, but when I tried to use it as a scraping master, I got strong indications that it was not flat in all axes. Jon ------- Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2003 15:35:23 EST From: JMartin957x~xxaol.com Subject: Re: Scraping ways Don't forget the undersides of the ways, as you'll need constant thickness to keep the carriage moving correctly. John martin ------- Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2003 18:55:35 EST From: catboat15x~xxaol.com Subject: Re: Digest Number 1343 atlas_craftsmanx~xxyahoogroups.com writes: > Having an aging 1941 10", I'm wondering about scraping the ways. > Would it be worse to have them ground ? But would either > help the cause? Carrage moves esy near the headstock and > gets reallllll snug near the tail. Yes, it sounds as if your ways are worn when it is loose near the headstock and tight near the tail. Atlas did not scrape the ways at the factory, they were originally ground. So, if you want to go with the orginial method you would grind them. Scraping may not be an option depending on how worn the ways really are. Scraping too will remove less material and the ways should stay close enough to original thickness that your lead screw, apron etc would still fit. Perhaps you could just live with the condition too. Think hard before doing anything. John in the high desert of California 12 inch Atlas Mini Mill Rusty file ------- Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2003 23:32:43 -0600 From: "jerdal" Subject: Re: Digest Number 1343 Atlas are different to any others, with all that area of box way, like a big turret lathe. Wear might be logically most on the sides of the box way, where the area is so much less. Have you checked widths? ------- Date: Wed, 05 Feb 2003 23:51:31 -0000 From: "joekott1 " Subject: gear noise I searched for this topic but I couldn't find anything. So I am sorry if I am asking a question that has been asked many times before. I have an atlas 12" with a quickchange and I find that when I use the gearbox it seems a bit load to me. I am used to running tool room type machines so this is a bit smaller than I am used to (but it does what I need to do at home). So my question is, is this normal for these lathes and if not what can I do to remedy this problem? I cannot adjust the gears within the quickchange itself but if there is anything else that can be done I would appreciate your help. Thanks all!! Joe (Ohio) ------- Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2003 22:08:25 EST From: LouD31M066x~xxaol.com Subject: Re: gear noise Your lathe like ours has been around awhile and may have seen indifferent care and careless use. The pot metal (zamac) alloy used in gear train, and other parts may be worn or sloppy or just plain chewed up(it deteriorates on its own too.) Isolate the sound using screw driver to ear technique and investigate source. May be as simple as using a tacky lube or as expensive as replacing parts. Everyone who gets an old Atlas or Craftsman Atlas lathe will have to do some troubleshooting or rebuilding, but, that is part of the fun. Once you get things up to snuff. Have you contacted Clausing Atlas for owners manual, parts price list and catalog? Owners manual gives you names, numbers, location and relationship of the assembly of parts that make up your lathe. Surprising, but, oem still supports the product. Louis ------- Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2003 23:46:35 EST From: HUNLEY31x~xxaol.com Subject: Re: gear noise My 12" was up and running for a few months till I heard, what I thought, odd gear noise. I removed one gear at a time until I found the cause. Some chips became imbedded in the soft cast gears and were tearing up the smaller gears. I had to pick the teeth with a dental pick, never thought of how appropriate that was till now, to remove the offending chips. My next piece of equipment will have STEEL gears for sure. These soft parts worry me. Even tho they have stood up thru the test of time. Hank ------- Date: Thu, 06 Feb 2003 11:57:48 -0600 From: Jon Elson Subject: Re: gear noise The Atlas is NOT a toolroom-quality lathe, sorry to say. Setting the gear lash just right definitely helps. The book procedure it to put a piece of paper between the gears and swing the bracket up until the gears pinch the paper. There is also one gear set on the bracket that is adjustable in its lash with the input gear to the QC. As these gears wear, they do get a bit louder. The faster you run it, the louder they get. I wear ear protectors most of the time I use the power feed, so the noise doesn't bother me too much. Jon ------- Date: Thu, 6 Feb 2003 10:12:16 -0600 (CST) From: dswrx~xxwebtv.net Subject: Re: Scraping ways A question about the use of "prussian blue". I have a tube of it and would like to know how to use it. It is quite thick, coming out of the tube. Do you thin it? and, if so, with what? Leo (dumb in pearland, but will be wiser with the help of your answers) ------- Date: Thu, 06 Feb 2003 11:27:07 -0500 From: Stan Stocker Subject: Re: Scraping ways Hi Leo; Some folks thin it a tad with mineral spirits. The preferred way to apply it for testing is to spead it out with a printers brayer (hard rubber roller) whenever possible. Obviously this is fine on a surface plate, but not so practical in many other places. Squeegees, bits of hard rubber, anything that works to allow you get a very thin film is OK. If the film is thick, you can't get accurate results, as the goo is thicker than the variations you're trying to find. Cheers, Stan ------- Date: Thu, 06 Feb 2003 12:38:15 -0600 From: Jon Elson Subject: Re: Scraping ways Generally, no, you don't thin it. You can saturate a paper or cloth towel with it and spread it around. Or, you can get a rubber roller and spread it that way. I am now using a rubber roller with the Canode water-soluble dye (it washes off the hands more easily) and it works pretty well. You want a dense, but very thin, coating, so it makes a clear mark, but doesn't transfer to the entire part. Jon ------- Date: Fri, 7 Feb 2003 03:26:11 -0500 From: "mertbaker" Subject: Re: Digest Number 1345 Prussian blue is the old standby, and famous for being dillicult to get it cleaned off things, hands, etc. afterwards. I stopped using it after the first time. Lipstick works as well, is a LOT easier to remove, & as styles change, it's free. Mert ---------- Date: Sun, 9 Feb 2003 12:17:06 -0800 From: "Bob May" Subject: Re: Re: Adjusting gibs I guess that you have made the assumption that there is only one setting for the tension on the gibs. In truth, there isn't one. Sometimes you need to be able to run the table rapidly with little friction and other times, you need to have the table as rigid as possible and will accept the additional friction of the gibs holding the table in place. In other words, a facile hand at adjusting the gibs is what you need to be able to do. If you don't need to move that particular motion, I usually clamp the table into place with the gibs and the friction keeps the table from moving. I'll also note that tight gibs will wear the sliding joint faster than loose ones will. Bob May http://nav.to/bobmay NEW! http://bobmay.astronomy.net ------- Date: Sun, 09 Feb 2003 20:53:37 -0000 From: "Paul " Subject: Atlas 10F apron Being a recently new member and new to lathes, I'm rebuilding a 10F that I purchased for £100....A few parts were broken and missing but with the help from the group things are almost sorted. At the rear of the apron there is a box casting with a gear shaft running through it that traverses the assembly along the lathe bed. Within the box there is another cog................this is a really poor fit on the shaft, causing alot of slack when the handwheel is turned,........any ideas on how to remedy the problem. The fit is very sloppy....the gear itself doesn't look very worn. It's just the square hole that fits to the shaft that has a lot of play. Thanx Paul ------- Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 09:25:56 EST From: LouD31M066x~xxaol.com Subject: Re: Re: Atlas 10F apron Sounds like something a little J B Weld might cure for the time being. Louis ------- Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 17:48:34 EST From: n8as1x~xxaol.com Subject: Re: Re: Atlas 10F apron > The fit is very sloppy....the gear itself doesn't look very worn. Its > just the square hole that fits to the shaft that has a lot of play that gear needs to be permanently fixed to shaft, as it supposedly came best wishes docn8as ------- Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2003 20:25:30 EST From: HUNLEY31x~xxaol.com Subject: Indexing kit to fit Replacement Bull Gears (10"/12") More details later. For now be advised I have an indexing kit made up to index the 60 holes on the 'bull gear' of a 10" or 12" Atlas lathe. All you need is a drill, although a drill press is a lot better. Anyone that has purchased a new gear that is not indexed, this is what you want. Ready to go. Free to list members for the asking, PIC available by request. Gear was supplied by Frank . On receipt of kit refund postage and hold for the next needy member. Regards, Hank ------- Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2003 02:13:50 EST From: JMartin957x~xxaol.com Subject: Re: Re: Craftsman 6" Countershaft Hanger Assembly s03570x~xxyahoo.com writes: << It is not broken, the pully shaft has worn out the bushing and may have worn on the casting. I am in the process of pressing out the bushings to see if the cast is OK and I will just be able to press in new bushings. If it is to bad I will let you know. Thanks, Steve >> I had a similar problem with a jackshaft on a milling machine. Shaft had worn through the bronze bearing and into the cast iron. Most of the cast iron was still there - wear spot was maybe 1/6 of the circle. As there was more than enough cast iron there to locate and hold a new bearing, I simply pushed in a new bearing and filled the gap where the cast iron had worn with JB Weld. Any similar epoxy would do. No real strength needed - just compressive. Has worked well so far. John Martin ------- Date: Sun, 2 Mar 2003 17:10:41 -0700 From: "Richard Coyle" Subject: RE: ID Craftsman Metal Lathe Well I can use some help, my new/old Atlas lathe was missing the drive belt and the spindle gears all seem frozen to the shaft, I have removed all the set screws and rear lock ring and freed up the pulley section which I believe was suppose to free wheel unless engaged by the push/pull pin in the front gear. (This is how my 12 x 36 works...) The instruction sheet that covers some of the parts seems to show a key way holding the front gear to the shaft, I expected the shaft to slip out or at lease be able to drive it out, so far no such luck and I have somewhat bashed up the end of my spindle, soft metal these... Does the drive pulley have set screws?? What for? Or did some fool not knowing how to lock the spindle to the pulley drill and tap this pulley to lock it to the spindle?? I saw one set on ebay with set screws in it so don't know if this is a common mistake and many have been changed this way, or is it stock with set screws. So first, am I right? Second I am in the market for a spindle, and perhaps a front gear. Oh I forgot I have yet to extract my banged up spindle, it can only come out the front toward the bed, Right?? Any suggestions on how to get it out?? Rich ------- Date: Sun, 2 Mar 2003 20:27:31 -0500 From: "Bill Hardin" Subject: RE: ID Craftsman Metal Lathe The set screw in the pulley is just a cover for oil port. What is the model number we are talking about? Bill Hardin www.homeshopsupply.com Craftsman & Atlas Lathe Support ------- Date: Sun, 2 Mar 2003 20:31:58 EST From: LouD31M066x~xxaol.com Subject: Re: ID Craftsman Metal Lathe Get thee to the atlas-press.com site and look up the technical bulletin for your model/size lathe. There is a specific proceedure to removing spindle. Print the instructions and study them carefully. If you do not already have the owners manual, parts price list and catalog call (574) 533-0371 Central Standard Time Monday thru Friday (business hours) and order (about $5) Have make model and serial number ready they accept credit cards. The parts you are beating on are the heart of the lathe and tend to be EXPENSIVE and a beating does nothing for accuracy or durability. Look at parts price list and repeat the phrases "Easy does it" and "An ounce of persuasion beats a pound of brute force." On second thought are you dealing with an Atlas or some other brand. Something about your description sounds odd...need to have flat ways, 101....(if Craftsman label) and similar to your 12 inch lathe... if other brand different solution which am not qualified to give. Louis ------- Date: Sun, 2 Mar 2003 19:14:06 -0700 From: "Richard Coyle" Subject: RE: ID Craftsman Metal Lathe It is a 618, some where along the line someone used set screws to lock the pulley to the spindle, that is fixable, the bigger problem is the stuck gear, I have bummed up the end of the shaft trying to drive it out. I plan on getting a piece of pipe or washers to allow me to pull it out by using the chuck as a puller. Oh I have soaked it with WD 40. Rich ------- Date: Sun, 2 Mar 2003 19:14:06 -0700 From: "Richard Coyle" Subject: RE: ID Craftsman Metal Lathe I read the instructions and it will/did not help in this case, if that would have worked I would already be done. I have a four page instruction manual, it showed all the set screws and parts for my model, the unit has been mistreated already for the front gear seems really frozen to the shaft, I can only guess that the fool the used the set screw to lock the pulley may have done to the front gear, the indexing holes are mostly striped out as I bet they used that to hold the spindle when they changed the chuck, not the lock pin in and the back gear to lock the spindle as you should. Luckily I got a good deal on it and can afford to do the fix up. Now if I can only get the spindle out with out harming the main housing. Rich ------- Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2003 07:47:23 -0700 From: "Richard Coyle" Subject: RE: ID Craftsman Metal Lathe Well WD40 and some persuasion with a hammer worked the back gear off the spindle at the cost of the spindle. And I can see what happened, There was no key in the spindle, so the back gear had scored its self onto the spindle, and the fools had cut a pair of flats into the spindle for the enlarged set screws to hold the pulley to the spindle. Question, is there a 1 inch 8 spindle that will work in this model as well as the stock 1 inch 10? Rich ------- Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2003 14:13:43 EST From: anthrhodesx~xxaol.com Subject: Re: ID Craftsman Metal Lathe I think, but am not certain, that the 1" x 8 TPI and 1" x 10 TPI spindles are interchangeable. Even if they are, why would you want the 8 TPI spindle? I believe 1" x 10 TPI chucks and attachments are much more readily available. Anthony Berkeley, Calif. [SEE 05 MARCH 2003 REPLY IN FILE "ATLAS 618 GEMS" AS TO ADVANTAGES OF 1" X 8 TPI] ------- Date: Mon, 03 Mar 2003 18:43:56 -0000 From: "rpm2290028 " Subject: Finally chasing 'tenths' I have a 101.07403, an early model 12x36, and after working for a couple of years to about 0.001 tolerance, I now have to get down to'tenths', and would appreciate advice from thos of you who've achieved this. I have a set of 1AT collets, up to 1/2", which does help for the smaller workpieces, but using my good 4-jaw, I have noticed that I can still get about 0.003 error while centring with a dial indicator, and pushing hard on the chuck. This disappears after a few hours running, so when the lathe is cold, I've taken to carefully cranking down on the pre-load, which then eliminated this error. I have some bed wear near the headstock, about 0.002" as far as I can measure, so for working here to get down to tenths, I have snugged up the gibs and used plenty of way oil. Without using the tailstock, I'm still getting a three-tenths taper over about an inch, is this normal? I can correct this with careful filing, but I'd like to be able to get closer if it's possible. I followed somebody's good advice a while back, and put a small copper disc under the set screw for the pre-load lock, to protect the spindle threads underneath, but it appears to be working slightly loose.Has anyone else had this happen? Do I need to really crank down on the set-screw to extrude the copper more into the threads? There was a post from Jon a while back, where he talked about the amount the attached motor causes the bed to twist, very relevant when 'levelling' the bed. I wondered about taking the motor off the lathe, and mounting it on the bench behind, with the same pivoting set-up to keep the belt tight, and just use a slightly longer belt. I know the later models have the motor underneath, in a cabinet?, so this would be a slight move in that direction. I guess that historically, before cheap electric motors were invented, a lathe like this would have been flat-belt driven anyway, so I'm not proposing too radical a change. Any advice would be greatly appreciated. Richard in Los Angeles ------- Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2003 13:29:32 -0600 From: "Randy Pedersen" Subject: Re: Finally chasing 'tenths' I don't believe moving the motor will cure the problem. It is not the motor that causes the deflection it is the tightening of the belt. to help cure this problem you need to install adjustable brace(s) between the motor and the lathe so the motor will not twist the bed. Randy ------- Date: Mon, 03 Mar 2003 20:36:58 -0000 From: "elperkins2003 " Subject: Re: Finally chasing 'tenths' You indicate that you are getting accuracy of about 0.0003" over one inch of cut. This sounds to me like pretty normal accuracy for an old lathe. It is about what I expect to get on my South Bend Heavy 10, and almost as good as I get on my 9" South Bend. I have two thoughts. First technique on an old lathe, is to be sure you are turning between centers if at all possible. Then, using a test bar, adjust the cut with the tailstock in the position it will be used in with the actual workpiece so that you get the same diameter at both ends. On an old worn lathe, this will not necessarily be the same at all places along the bed. You will probably have to make a test bar of the same length as your work piece. If you really want accuracy to a tenth, you will probably have to resort to lapping. You machine as close as you can, probably to within .001 to .0005" of the desired dimension, and take the remaining material off by lapping with a copper or brass lap (impregnated with abrasive) made to fit the work piece. This would be a split sleeve for outside lapping, with some provision to tighten it up (hose clamps will do)as it cuts into the work piece. For inside lapping, you use a lap made to fit the internal dimension that is split and has a taper reamed in the center. A taper pin is driven into the center of the lap to expand it ever so slightly as you cut into the work piece. You lap for a while then clean and measure, then lap some more until you get it right. I have used this technique to lap a cylinder and piston on a model desiel engine that required a 6 or 7 to one compression ratio. In other words, a very very close fit and finish without piston rings. A great description of lapping is in outlined in the book "The Amature's Lathe, by L. Sparry. This is an old book written with an English twist, that has a wealth of information in it. I think it is available from Lindsay Publications. Years ago I got my copy from Campbell Tools in Springfield OH. Have fun! Perk in Cincinnati ------- Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2003 22:56:19 -0600 From: "jerdal" Subject: Re: Model 109.xxx Some MT0 things are available from Campbell tools. I forget the URL, but there seem to be two of these, one is unrelated to machines, so if you search, try adding parameters in Google "advanced search" to eliminate non-machine versions! At least centers are available, if not chuck arbors. I made a chuck arbor on the 109 for mine. Other MT0 things are also makeable, and some on the group, notably Earl Bower, make parts. The graduated dials are makeable on the machine, I know I did, before changing to a larger Logan machine. But the dial is a pain due to not having an even number of thousandths per turn, seems like there is an odd bit left over due to the crosslide screw pitch. Slop in spindle is due to nose bearing issues, either not tightened right, or possibly worn bell-mouthed. Loose can be tightened with the nut that should be behind the bearing next to the large backgear housing on many types. Bellmouthed can be reamed parallel, or possibly remade from bronze if too far gone. Earl Bower makes spindles, and maybe bearings. Myself, I would put the money towards a small Atlas or Logan, as the 109 is afflicted with a too-small spindle for my taste. An Atlas 6" (the "618") is much stiffer and I have seen them sold for as little as $200. I turned one down recently for that, decided I just didn't want it relative to other things. Jerrold ------- Date: Fri, 7 Mar 2003 18:45:22 EST From: LouD31M066x~xxaol.com Subject: Re: Spindle bearing adjustment Craftsman 101.21400 Craftsman is a Sears (Roebuck) brand. Atlas Press made lathes and other items sold by Sears under Craftsman brand. Sears model numbers began with a three digit source code to identify supplier. There is another lathe often confused with Craftsman/Atlas(101.xxx) made by AA Engineering(109.xxx) The two companies each made a six inch lathe which strange as it may seem used same change gears. Whenever discussing a Craftsman brand lathe it helps to sort out which supplier's lathe is involved. See a lot of confusion perpetrated on ebay by sellers hoping buyer will assume they are bidding on more valuable of the two machines....Caviat Emptor or something like that. Atlas made machines over a period of time and I believe used Timken Taper Roller Bearings, plain bearings and I am told oilite or similar bearings. Correcting spindle endplay on the different bearings might differ depending on bearing type. The site I referred you to has very specific proceedure for Timken Tapered Roller Bearing headstock...if you don't have that type bearing instructions might not apply in whole or in part. Atlas manual had directions for dealing with plain bearings and Timken bearings...no mention in my book of oilite type bearing care. Louis ------- Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2003 18:01:08 EST From: LouD31M066x~xxaol.com Subject: Rebuilding Lathe Have just finished assembly and tryout of Craftsman/Atlas 6 inch lathe 101.21400 project and I have the following comments to offer to anyone considering this... 1) A worn bed can be economically reground to better than new condition. 2) Carriage should also be checked. Gibs should to hold evenly across full range of motion both bed way and cross slide. 3) Compound should also be checked to see if gibs hold evenly through full range of motion and may also be improved by a grind. When you assemble the slop and stick slip of gibs is gone! Assemble carriage on bed with all shims in place...measure slop and then remove and take out an appropriate shim thickness...if you need more have half of retainer plate ground to fit up snug and install shims as needed. My enthusiasim for this project may be excessive, but, the results certainly justified the time and expense. You can rejuvinated Tired Old Iron to better than new even if you don't have a journeyman machine repairman's card! no digital camera no pix and it is too big to set on scanner! Truth be told before, during and after pictures would have told a story...and might have led to questions about my sanity for buying an obvious junker. But, no picture could demonstrate smooth almost frictionless traverse thru full range of motion of carriage and cross slide with zero slack in gibs...that you would have to experience and appreciate how good it can get. I suspect original Atlas finish left much to be desired. A very learning experience. Proof of pudding is of course is it accurate? That awaits some testing and use. Bed about $60.00 to have top, front and back and bottom of rails ground to mirror flat finish with (much) less than 0.001 variance in all measurements. Carriage about $40.00 and it was more in need than bed. The project would not have turned out right if grinder had not noticed need for additional work on carriage to clean up cross slide. This is a tricky set up as it must reference from surface of carriage that faces front rail surface. Could have carried grinding to compound, but, it seems ok although no as smooth so left it alone for now. If you have a machine that needs rejuvinating this is one way to go. Another is to buy a good used bed off ebay(may be cheaper). I found so much wrong with carriage riding surfaces that even a new bed wouldn't have given satisfaction. Reconditioning of sliding surfaces changed junk to jewel! If anyone is considering this I would be glad to answer any questions. Louis ------- Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2003 23:55:55 -0000 From: "rpm2290028" Subject: TIR of Spindle Bore I posted a while back about having to chase 'tenths' on an early 12x36 101.07403. In my search for errors to tweak, I was surprised to find a TIR of about 0.003-4" in my set of Hardinge collets, when fitted in the spindle and tightened up. I checked the TIR with a brand new #3 dead centre that I just use for accurate centering, and found the same runout as the collets. I very carefully used another new but cheap dead centre to grind out the taper with very fine grinding paste, which took out any grungy bits, gave a nice smooth finish,(except for odd deep scratches etc) and improved the runout to about 0.0015". Is this normal for these lathes? This one has about 0.002" of bed wear at 6" - 18" from the headstock, about 0.007" loss of height on the tailstock which has been shimmed out, but the bearings are in good shape, so I'm wondering why this error? How much would it cost, roughly, to have this spindle re-ground to a better tolerance? Has anyone had this done? I have a good 4-jaw which i can get down to 0.0002" but I would like the collets to be more accurate than this, they fit inside the spindle with a draw-bar. I am very leary of trying to improve this with a reamer... Richard in Los Angeles ------- Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2003 21:42:19 EST From: n8as1x~xxaol.com Subject: Re: TIR of Spindle Bore In a message dated 3/13/03 5:59:14 PM Central Standard Time, richardmedwayx~xxsprintmail.com writes: > 4-jaw which > i can get down to 0.0002" but I would like the collets to be more > accurate than this, they fit inside the spindle with a draw-bar. i think it unrealistic to expect much better han 1/2 thou out of a collet set up on a/c lathe,but u certainly shoud be able to get spindle runout to that......brought mine back to .0003+ w/ a morse reamer CAREFULLY(easy) w/OUT any tailstock support ..........ur progress so far tells me would encourage me to use a reamer ......on 3 different machines ,the reamer has worked ............i would guess that ur bearings wont hold .0002 runout..........1 1/2 thou runout is unacceptable to me & the reamer is where i would start .....there are others who would not , but i trust a reamer in situ over a regrind on another machine by an unknown hand....... best wishes docn8as ------- Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2003 00:26:57 -0600 From: Jon Elson Subject: Re: TIR of Spindle Bore >gave a nice smooth finish,(except for odd deep scratches etc) and >improved the runout to about 0.0015". Most likely, this is normal. The best thing to do is use a dial test indicator on the taper inside the spindle, and read it at several depths. If there is no runout there, then your collets are bad (not likely). But, I suspect you'll find the runout is in the spindle taper. You can set up a toolpost grinder or good die grinder and align the compound swivel to follow the side of the taper. make sure the compound slide runs straight and doesn't follow a curved path due to wear, like my old Atlas did. Then, you can run a fine stone in and out to true up the spindle socket. You can fit a known-good arbor (not a collet) with blue dye to make sure the taper angle is correct. When the arbor puts dye all over the spindle socket, and the grinder has cut all around, then you're there! >How much would it cost, roughly, to have this spindle re-ground to a >better tolerance? Has anyone had this done? It is best to do this ON the machine, so the runout of the bearings and spindle are all cancelled in the position they are assembled in. Jon ------- Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2003 08:01:28 -0600 From: "jerdal" Subject: Re: TIR of Spindle Bore > It is best to do this ON the machine, so the runout of the bearings and > spindle are all cancelled in the position they are assembled in. This is true, UNLESS you are going to have to siassemble the spindle assembly. My Atlas' are not lathes, so I don't know the degree to which the bearings are disturbed replacing the belt on the Atlas lathe. On some others, the relationship of bearing to spindle is destroyed. But, it would be prudent to get a belt not requiring disassembly to replace. Otherwise you may find your runout DOUBLED after belt replacement, if runouts and ground correction are in position to add, not subtract... Jerrold ------- Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2003 00:47:46 -0000 From: "gppaine2001" Subject: AA 109 lathe half nut alignment As a proud owner of two Atlas 10s, I have enjoyed following this group chat for some time now. I am always learning. I picked up an inexpensive 109 lathe last fall that I am just getting around to setting up. Why, with two larger lathes? I guess I am just fascinated with the cute little thing. After cleaning it up and studying it for a while now, musing over DC variable power, jackshafts or not, etc., I find I could use the advice of this group on the half nuts. When I engage the half nuts, the screw bows out from the lathe by .030 inches. This is obviously enough to cause excessive wear, and when the carriage is near head or tailstock, it causes binding. The screw is straight and true until the half nuts are engaged. It looks like I might be able to put a shim between the halfnut mechanism and the carriage, but there may be a better way. Has the group any ideas? Is this common on these lathes? ------- Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2003 21:52:11 EST From: n8as1x~xxaol.com Subject: Re: AA 109 lathe half nut alignment gppainex~xxaol.com writes: > engage the half nuts, > the screw bows out from the lathe by .030 inches no experience w/ 109, but i would disconnect the l/screw hanger x~xx the t/stock end & see if screw moves out ... take appropriate remedial action best wishes docn8as ------- Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2003 21:15:52 -0600 From: "jerdal" Subject: Re: AA 109 lathe half nut alignment My old one did it, I think I shimmed it at the half nuts, but I don't remember. Watch out the lead screw isn't bent. Jerrold ------- Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2003 17:39:31 EST From: anthrhodesx~xxaol.com Subject: Re: AA 109 lathe half nut alignment In a message dated Fri, 14 Mar 2003 00:47:46 -0000, gppaine2001 writes: << [SNIP] I might be able to put a shim between the halfnut mechanism and the carriage, but there may be a better way. Has the group any ideas? >> I think better to shim the leadscrew bearings out by .030" or whatever it takes. Much simpler and probably the way the factory would do it. (If this involved a QC gearbox it might need some rethinking.) Anthony Berkeley, Calif. ------- Date: Sat, 15 Mar 2003 08:36:39 -0600 From: "jerdal" Subject: Re: Re: AA 109 lathe half nut alignment Not to fuss, but the problem is likely the wear in the half-nut assembly, or possibly a P.O. didn't do something right. Also, the LS is fixed in position on the 109s I have seen due to its bearing at the HS end being in the main casting. Therefore shim halfnuts unless the LS tail bearing is actually out of line with HS end. Jerrold ------- Date: Sun, 16 Mar 2003 16:38:00 -0000 From: "gppaine2001" Subject: Re: AA 109 lathe half nut alignment I'd like to thank all those who responded. The headstock and tailstock bearings are both machined in cast bosses on the 109, so no adjustment there. The leadscrew was not bent. I therefore elected to shim the half nuts into alignment. This was a bit more involved than I originally estimated and required removal of the carriage. The screw that provides the bearing surface for the halfnut lever engages a threaded bushing in the lever and was factory peened in three spots to keep it from unscrewing. To disassemble, I had to disassemble the carriage assembly and clamp it in my mill to machine away the deformed area. When disassembled, I noticed that the bearing surface on the halfnut lever was covered in worn factory paint. Cleaning that up caused me to have to add another .004 shim to the .030 shim I had so carefully made. On reassembly, I was pleased to experience smooth halfnut engagement with no bowing or binding of the screw and halfnuts. Thanks again, Gary ------- Date: Sun, 16 Mar 2003 21:24:21 -0000 From: "emers2275" Subject: Atlas 6" I have a problem with my lathe. The carriage crank wheel won't move the carriage. I looked behind the apron and it looks like the gear that runs on the rack is turning but not engaging the rack. I was just wondering if anyone knew if there is an adjustment for this gear for the depth it sits into the rack. Possibly the gear is worn out but it doesn't look like it. Maybe someone has already had this problem and can give me an idea what is causing this. I haven't took the carriage off yet. The lathe is an Atlas Clausing 6"--I don't know the model. Any help would be appreciated. Thank you for your time. ------- Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2003 10:29:52 EST From: LouD31M066x~xxaol.com Subject: Re: Atlas 6" First confirm lathe is an Atlas. Does it have flat ways? If sold by Sears under Craftsman brand look at tag. Does model number begin with 101? If not an Atlas made lathe cure for problem is different. If an Atlas or Craftsman/Atlas try the following: remove lead screw by removing the four slotted screws that attach lead screw bearings to lathe bed the slide leadscrew assembly out of carriage toward the headstock end of lathe bed. With lead screw now removed you can slide carriage toward tailstock end of bed and off bed. Turn carriage over and remove 3 screws holding plate and shims over gear area. Look for loose screws, broken zinc casting, crud. There is not much there so problem should be obvious even if you are inexperienced. Clean and oil everything before you even think about reassembly. Assemble in reverse order of disassembly. No force is required. If it does not fall into place something needs to be adjusted. Easy does it. 6 inch Atlas lathe is easy to take apart repair and reassemble as no special tools, talent or knowledge required. Just remember to use the opportunity to clean, oil and adjust and never use force as it is not required. This is not a sledgehammer job! If you run into a problem ask group. They been there done that. Louis ------- Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2003 16:25:22 -0000 From: "emers2275" Subject: Atlas 6" The tag on the tailstock end of the bed says Atlas at the top, then model no. 10100, sn 005872, then at the bottom it says Clausing Corporation, Kalamazoo, Michigan. I looked at the bottom of the carriage again behind the apron and it looks like the gearbox that runs the gear may be loose from the bottom of the carriage--it looks like theres a gap between the two. Thanks for your help. I'll let you know what I find when I get it apart. ------- Date: Wed, 02 Apr 2003 00:02:04 -0000 From: "Damon" Subject: loooongbed ? Hey guys. I've got a 10" lathe on a 36" bed that has seen better days. It measures 0.003" narrower near the head than at the tail. As luck would have it, I picked up a near virgin 54" bed last week. Now the obvious thing would be to swap all the stuff from the 36" onto the 54" and call it a day. But, then I have a 36" bed with nothing to do with, and probably not a lot of value either. Add in the fact that my current bench (300# of steel, tabletop is 10x3x1/2" c-channel) is just big enough for the 36" bed. Sooooooo I was thinking about getting a stout platform, maybe 8"x3"x1/4" wall box beam, or maybe an I-beam 8" wide. 8 feet long though - Mount the headstock and carraige on the 54" bed. And to the right of that, mount the 36" bed (empty). So I will have all the functionality of the 10x54, and for those loooong pieces, the ability to support them on the 36" bed. I think it would probably be a major pain in the tail (bad pun intended) to get the beds close to aligned. Start by truing the 54", then work on alignment of the 36. And I dont know that I'd be able to use the tailstock on the 36" bed. But - I bet I could pull it off using a fixed steady. Off center if need be to be able to turn true. So is this totally a stupid idea? Requiring a VERY stout base of course. Thoughts? -Damon (trying to resist the temptation of the 12x54 on ebay now) ------- Date: Wed, 02 Apr 2003 03:18:26 -0000 From: "mrb37211" Subject: Re: loooongbed ? Damon - Some folks in the 7x10 mini-lathe group (on Yahoo) have done this more-or-less. I think they actually grafted the beds together. Also, Atlas sold "extension beds" for the old-style 6x18 and the 10" (maybe old-style 12" also) lathes. So it is very doable. I've got a 54" bed 10 and the extension bed which may end up in a similar configuration. Good luck and keep us posted. Charles ------- Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2003 05:02:20 -0500 From: "Cindy/Wayne" Subject: Re: loooongbed ? Damon, I too have had these strange thoughts of taking two beds and make one long one. I have also thought I should cut a section out and make some extra bed feet and make a gap bed A/C lathe.I had a 12x24" and I wanted something longer between centers. Got a deal on a 12x30" and used that for a while, but wanted an even longer bed. now have a 10F x 36 that was like new when puchased second hand, and have only a couple of jobs that could have used a couple more inches of length( story of my life(<: ). When I put up my new hobby shop this year ,and the lathe gets moved out to larger spaces, I still may go for the same idea with the two beds end to end to take the long jobs. Have you thought about lead screw length and rack gear? Good luck, Wayne(rice)Burner ------- Date: Sun, 6 Apr 2003 21:36:27 +0100 From: "Ernest Lear" Subject: Re: Getting the swivel off From: "Brian Squibb" > How do I take the swivel off my 10F? I think I should just > be able to wind it off the saddle? Have got it off the end of > screw but am reluctant to use some 'gentle' persuasion with the > 5 pound hammer Thanks Brian What you have to do is undo the screw bush housing (10F-46), the large nut up against the saddle. The handle and all at this end of the spindle have to be dismantled first to allow the spindle to move rearwards. Undo the screw at the back of the saddle that holds the brass nut (10F-19) and press it down and out of its hole in the saddle. Remove the spindle and nut. Now all you have to do is slide the swivel away and back till it comes off. Make sure you loosen the gib (10-56) and take care of it as you will need it when you come to re-assembling. I just did it plus taking all the rest of my lathe apart. As tomorrow I'm taking my bed for regrinding at a machine shop that houses a 13 foot long surface grinder. And my 3 foot bed will fit nicely on it. This took a bit of finding as most can only surface grind up to 24" max. Then I will hand scrape the saddle to a perfect fit on the bed. I did this (scraping) last about 50 years ago and I'm sure I still can do it. All the jobs I have listed and I will do as it goes together again. Then I will have a Atlas as good as new. Most of the bits required have already been made on this machine and some, by using a Unimat lathe, which I also have. Last week I made a new MS screw (10F-36) and its nut out of P/bronze. I also made the acme die used to thread this screw as I only had a LH 1/2 Acme Tap. It worked perfectly. Removed the .74mm of backlash in this worn assembly; now it is only .03mm on the new home-made one. I'm pleased with that. Regards Ernest ------- Date: Sun, 06 Apr 2003 21:36:14 +0100 From: Brian Squibb Subject: Re: Getting the swivel off Thanks Ernest - I am going to fit a T slotted table. When you have finished yours and have nothing to do, shall I post mine down for the same treatment? :) Brian ------- Date: Sun, 6 Apr 2003 22:43:30 +0100 From: "Ernest Lear" Subject: Re: Getting the swivel off Not Bloody likely but maybe if the price is right. Ernest ------- Date: Mon, 7 Apr 2003 10:20:00 EDT From: catboat15x~xxaol.com Subject: Re: Digest Number 1426 After you loosen the screws and backed them out a ways then you twist, wiggle, pull and jostle to get it off. There are pins under the screws that engage the undercut on the saddle. Don't use a hammer. Might try to use a magnet or as I did one time put a bit of sticky stuff on the end of a thin stick (long Q tip) and pull the pin loose. John in the high desert of California ------ Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 15:48:20 -0000 From: "hankshadow" Subject: Bull gear index Just a reminder. If anyone needs their new 10",12" bull gear indexed I have a jig made up that's free to list members. You pay postage and maintain custody till another member need it. Contact me off line for details and a PIC if you like. Larry LARRY'S FOLLOW-UP ON 30 APRIL 2003: Try here (both lines together for the address): http://photos.groups.yahoo.com/group/atlas_craftsman/lst?.dir=/Index+Ki t++Bull+gear&.src=gr&.order=&.view=t&.done=http%3a//briefcase.yahoo.com/ I can send the same pic if you require. In a nutshell the kit consists of an old gear drilled thru and machined to fit flush, alignment pins, drill bit, and assy. holder. Free you pay postage. ------- Date: Sat, 3 May 2003 00:45:59 EDT From: catboat15x~xxaol.com Subject: Re: Help with carrage problem Hi all: I own a 12 inch Atlas, loose change gears, power cross feed by pulling on a knob. Today was turning some shafts out of that cold rolled steel from the hardware store. Lousy stuff for turning! Anyway all of a sudden my carrage would not crank back for a second cut. The carrage seemed to lock up going either direction after only a couple of turns on the hand wheel. Pretty obvious a chunk of swarf caught on the gear train from the hand wheel to the rack under the bed. I wanted to clean that gear train so thought if I took out the two large cross headed screws in the top of the carrage the apron would drop off exposing that gear train. Took the screws out and everything still seems to be together as before. I have the parts drawings etc, but I am afraid to pry, pound or whatever to release the apron. Always before when I wanted to do anything in the apron or cross slide I would remove it by taking out the bearing at the right end and simply cranking the whole carrage off the end of the bed. This time I can't do that since the carrage will only move a short distance before locking up. Any advice for getting to the gears inside the apron would certainly be appreciated, as everything now is in fair adjustment and don't want to mess anything up. John in the high desert of California 12 inch Atlas Mini Mill Rusty file ------- Date: Sat, 03 May 2003 00:38:31 -0500 From: Jon Elson Subject: Re: Help with carrage problem You really need to pull the leadscrew before doing this. If the rack really is just blocked with swarf (somewhat unusual) you can drop the apron 1/8" or so to allow the pinion some slack. There are 2 big dowel pins that align the apron. You may have to pry a bit, depending on how tightly the dowels gripping the holes in the apron. You might leave the 2 Phillips head screws partly in, and tap on them gently, then apply a little pressure evenly once a gap opens up. I'm afraid you may have more trouble than swarf in the rack. There is a Zamak piece that holds the reduction gears for the carriage pinion, and it is prone to cracking. When it lets go, the whole works can fall right out, or it can bind things up. There are 3 screws on the front of the apron around the carriage crank. You can see the mechanism from the left side of the apron. You might check for looseness of the screws, and watch or feel for movement of the bracket when you rock the carriage crank. If you can feel the bracket move when you turn the crank, the bracket is likely broken. Some people have had good luck epoxying or soldering (? you can't braze Zamak, the melting point is too low) this Zamak part. Others have made a new piece out of solid aluminum billet or steel. Umm, one thing comes to mind, the halfnuts couldn't have dropped into engagement whithout you noticing it, could they? That will bind the carriage, for sure. Jon -------- Date: Tue, 6 May 2003 00:15:08 EDT From: catboat15x~xxaol.com Subject: Re: Need advice on change gears azbrunox~xxyahoo.com writes: > I'm trying to set up different threading gears on my lathe, but I'm > having trouble removing gears. I could use some advice; I don't want > to force anything. Light force is the way to go here. The die cast gears on an Atlas fit pretty tight onto the bushings. What I do is to use a pry bar (old beat up screw driver) to pry a bit at a time at several locations around the edge of the gears. Don't pry too hard as that die cast metal is getting old by now. Just kind of rock the gear loose. I have had to in some gears on an Atlas to lightly break the edge of the mounting hole and keyway with a fine needle file to remove what is apparently mold flash on some of the gears. Better a tight fit than sloppy. John in the high desert of California ------- Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 16:53:32 -0400 From: Ronald Thibault Subject: Re: Bushing Carriage Handwheel At 04:34 PM 5/13/2003 +0000, you wrote:>Dear Group, >I'm finally getting round to puting in a bushing for my handwheel >spindle on my 12x54 101.07403 lathe, but am having trouble finding a >bushing source. I imagine that I'll have to bore out the new bushing >to fit the shaft exactly, since the ID of an off the shelf size is >unlikely to match. I obviously don't want a pre-hardened drill >bushing, as machining it will be too difficult. Has anyone done this >vital task on their own lathe, and can point me in the right >direction? I've already tried J&L, Travers, KBC, Airgas, Reid and >Wholesale Tools. Thanks in advance, Richard in Los Angeles I mounted my apron to an angle plate mounted on the topslide. I bored the handwheel, and countersank it to take sintered bronze flanged bearings. you can see a picture of it in the Atlas Lathe II section of my web site (address below). Ron Thibault Warrenville, SC USA http://personal.atl.bellsouth.net/t/h/thib9564/ ------- Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 18:19:17 -0700 From: "Bob May" Subject: Re: Bushing Carriage Handwheel You may be supprised at what i available for bushings! Stop by a good bearing place and see what they have in stock and available for order for bushings. You may need to do either the inside or outside of a bushing to make it fit perfectly but there are really a lot of different ones available. Bob May http://nav.to/bobmay NEW! http://bobmay.astronomy.net ------- Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 21:20:25 -0400 From: "piggy" Subject: Re: Bushing Carriage Handwheel and i easily made a bushing for the very place talked about here. also made a new nut for the compound on my atlas , that wasnt so easy but the next one will be easier as i now have the tool made to cut the internal acme threads that were required. Don T. EVO Power & Machine www.accessatc.net/~piggy www.snartracing.com ------- Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 16:00:36 -0000 From: "joekott1" Subject: Re: Bushing Carriage Handwheel Richard, I am probably going to undertake the same project very soon (wife willing). I plan on sourcing a bronze bushing from McMaster. They have a fantastic web site that makes it easy to find parts (pardon the mcmaster plug). Hope this helps and good luck! www.mcmaster.com Joe ------- Date: Sat, 14 Jun 2003 22:32:29 -0000 From: "speedphoto300" Subject: Re: Play in the carriage hand wheel > On my Atlas 10"-F series there is a small amount of play in the > carriage hand wheel. When I rotate the hand wheel (clockwise or > counter clockwise) the wheel will turn about a quarter inch before > the carriage will move along the bed. How do I get rid of this play? It's supposed to be that way, the handwheel drives the carriage through a gear reduction to the rack on the bed. The whole thing will bind up if there isn't clearance in the gear train. 1/4 inch isn't out of line. If there is a lot more than this it's possible that the Zamac housing for the reduction gears is cracked, not an uncommon problem. Joe ------- Date: Sun, 15 Jun 2003 01:27:37 -0500 From: Jon Elson Subject: Re: Play in the carriage hand wheel First, check the large Phillips head screws on the apron. If they are loose, you get this. If not, there is a reduction gear train that a lot of people don't know to oil. There are 3 oiler ports on the apron, and you need to get some oil on there every once in a while or the bushings (or lack of them, actually) get opened up on the shaft the handwheel runs on, and the intermediate gear. When it gets bad enough, the holes need to be bored out and have brass or bronze bushings installed. But, your amount of play sounds very normal. I've never seen an Atlas with less. Jon ------- Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2003 12:29:13 -0500 From: Jon Elson Subject: Re: Feed Reverse Lever Chatter dk_gip wrote: > I'm getting a lot of chatter ( or whatI think is a lot of chatter ) in > the feed reverse lever when it's engaged forward or reverse on my Atlas > QC 10F.This lever is vibrating pretty good and I am wondering if this > is normal. When the lever is in neutral everything sounds great...nice > and smooth. I just need a few reference points on the way things > should sound when the lathe is running. When in neutral, the gear train is not engaged. When engaged, all the gears are spinning, and Atlas machines do tend to have noisy gear trains. but, the lever itself doesn't rattle on mine. There are ways to adjust the gear lash, and I suspect that is what is wrong. The manual says to put a piece of thin card stock (I'm guessing that is between .010 and .015") between the gears, engage them, and lock the setting there. The plate the reversing lever detents into can be moved to adjust gear lash a bit, but it is a compromise between F and R. There is an extended handle under the lower gear cover that allows you to set the lash between the next gears in the chain and the reversing tumbler gear. There is a nut on a movable bushing that sets the lash between the intermediate gears and the QC box. Any or all of these could be too loose or too tight. When you get it right, it shouldn't shake, but will still make a fair bit of noise, much louder than when the gears sre disengaged. I only run the gear train when actually using threading or power feed. >Another dumb question: On the back-gear, the smaller gear the drives >the "bull" has a nice crack along one of the teeth. Do not use >the back gear right! If part of the tooth remains, you might be able to continue using it under light loads. If the entire part of the tooth that engages the bull gear is gone, then it could bind up, so you need to repair it. There are ways to epoxy, pin or solder on replacement teeth that have been described in the past. Or, you could get a replacement gear on eBay or some other source for used parts. Jon ------- Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2003 11:47:42 -0500 From: Jon Elson Subject: Re: 101.07403 lubrication jrw064 wrote: >I recently noticed that the lead screw support at the tailstock end >does not look like it is taking lubrication properly, the spot near >the drive gears takes lubrication fine. Does one have to dismantle >the support from the leadscrew on the tailstock end or is there an >alternate method for this. I suspect that the hole is plugged, but >was wondering about how to correct this issue. It depends on whether this is a sintered bronze bushing, plain Zamak with no bushing, or babbit with an oil hole. I thought these were just a hole bored in the Zamak, but I could be wrong. (Or, it could have been repaired.) On the two Atlas lathes I've had, these bearings didn't take much oil, either. One drop a week was plenty. It is VERY easy to take the support off and inspect, and set the thrust bearing clearance. Literally a 5 minute job to remove, clean, inspect, relube and reinstall! Don't let it intimidate you! (When I got my first lathe, I was intimidated too, but eventually found out there were no intricate alignments that could be thrown off by disassembling the thing.) Jon ------- Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2003 19:46:10 -0400 From: "Bill Hardin" Subject: RE: spindle [AA 109 REMOVAL PROCEDURE] Great. To remove the spindle, standing at the back of the machine, remove the split collar on the far right inside the headstock. This will allow the back gear assembly and pulley to slide to the right, exposing a woodruff key in the spindle. Remove the woodruff key. Remove the spindle gear on the end of the spindle on your right, just outside the headstock. Loosen the nut that adjusts the tapered bearing on the left of the headstock. It is not necessary to remove this nut, although you can and allow it to float on the spindle. At this point, nothing is holding the spindle. It will slide out to the left, toward the tailstock. It may have the tapered bearing snugged down, but you have loosened the nut and it may move slightly to the left. The spindle should move freely to the left. If necessary, take a piece of 1/2" wooden dowel and tap it lightly with a hammer to remove. Once the spindle is removed, you will be left with a bronze sleeve bearing on the right side of the headstock (3/4" OD, 1" long, 0.550" ID) and the split taper bearing on the left with the nut. The weakest spot in the whole 109 is the threaded nose, just into the 1/2 x 20 tpi thread. When you consider a 1/2" threaded nose with a #0 morse taper through it, you can see that there is insufficient "meat" to take too much abuse. You have the option when replacing it to go to a 3/4" x 16 tpi spindle. This is the best answer, unless you are too heavily committed to 1/2" chucks and plates. Hope this helps. Bill Hardin www.homeshopsupply.com Craftsman 109 Lathe Support ------- Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2003 17:58:44 -0700 (PDT) From: Chris Hamel Subject: RE: spindle Good directions. Just don't make the mistake I did. I knew it was a bad idea to tap on end of the spindle to remove it, so I thought it would be OK to tap on the back of the chuck lightly to pull the spindle out. I ended up bending the spindle and had to have a replacement made. ------- Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2003 00:36:38 -0400 From: "Kevin J Wilby" Subject: RE: spindle allright, i've done what i can, and what seems to still be attached is the thing next to the pully steps, with gears in it and a metal shell around it. that thing is still there. i took off the two screws of the shell and looked at the gears but there's no way they're coming off. it's obvious that something is still attached because that spindle isn't budging. is there anything i can do about that? thanks kevin ------- Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2003 07:50:28 -0700 (PDT) From: Chris Hamel Subject: RE: spindle Kevin, if you have removed the split collar, and slid the pulley assembly back to remove the woodruff key, the spindle should slide out. This assumes you have backed off the nut on the front tapered bearing and you have also need to remove the gear at the back end of the spindle. The spindle may be a bit tight, so you may have to use a 1/2 inch dowel to tap on the tail end. Don't try to push or pull it out any other way. Good Luck. Chris ------- Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2003 23:35:02 -0500 From: "jerdal" Subject: Re: spindle Another point, if the spindle is worn, the grooves in it and the bearing may have interlocked so that they won't like to slide apart. Mine did that. I ended up re-reaming the bearing and smoothing the spindle, and finally made another spindle. Anyhow, take the nut all the way off the back of the bearing (just in front of the backgear housing) and slide out the spindle AND bearing together, for separation outside. Jerrold ------- Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2003 14:09:43 -0000 From: "joekott1" Subject: apron removal and boring I am working on removing the apron on my Craftsman 12" so that I can re-bore and bush the hole for the carriage handwheel. There is way to much play in the bore for my liking so it needs a little work - sounds like this might be a common problem? I removed the two bolts on the top of the saddle but the apron will not budge. I cannot see anything else holding the apron onto the saddle. Are there additionl bolts holding the two together somewhere? I do plan on tearing the whole thing down to mount it for the boring operation but I thought I would ask the group if anyone has any advice on this little project/nightmare. Thanks in advance for all of your help! ------- Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2003 11:02:07 -0400 From: HUNLEY31x~xxaol.com Subject: Re: apron removal and boring JoeKott, you're on the right track. You have removed the leadscrew right? Anyway the apron is held in place with the two allen head screws that you have removed. It's held in alignment by two small pins that seat in the carriage. Try putting the allen screws back in, but not tight. Allow them to stick up past the surface of the carriage. Tap down on the screws gently and evenly to separate the two casting. You could accomplish the same thing with 'prying'. I think the tap the screw method is easier and less likely to cause damage. Hope this helps some. Hank ------- Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2003 13:15:01 -0400 From: HUNLEY31x~xxaol.com Subject: Re: apron removal and boring >> Since this business of removing the apron has been brought up several times in the few weeks I've been on the list, it must be a frequent problem. I'm gonna have to do it on the PB, and unless you guys with much more experience warn me off it, I'm gonna D&T the apron 1/4"NF twice in line with and close to the locator pins, so I can drive in jack screws if I ever have to do it again. I imagine that to maintain accuracy, the pins have to be an interference fit? << I think that after the first time you remove it you won't have a problem in the future. Your only concern will be not to drop the apron after your first tap on the screws. Hank -------- Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2003 08:04:43 -0400 From: Ronald Thibault Subject: Re: Re: sphere (Atlas) gear case for manuual feed >><< I don't know how best to describe it but here goes,behind the carriage the feed screw passes through a triangular casting which has a shaft with small gear at one end (16DP 12 tooth) Which I have had to replace but that is another story, and a larger gear at the other end passing at right angles to the feed screw, it is this casting that has cracked if you have a spare. the forward handle operates through these gears. hope I have explained it OK. >> Brian; I fixed mine using epoxy and a length of brass strip, on my old lathe. There is a short article on the repair on my web site (address below). Ron Thibault Warrenville, SC USA http://personal.atl.bellsouth.net/t/h/thib9564/ ------- Date: Sat, 9 Aug 2003 12:31:00 EDT From: Sagebush9x~xxaol.com Subject: Re: sphere (Atlas) gear case for manuual feed Jo, my "gearcase"(12", 101.28990) was broken too, one mounting foot was broken off-I took it out to measure it up w/intentions of making one on the mill. I had some "aluminum" welding rod laying on the bench that I bought just to try on another al. part I needed to build up...decided to see if it would weld Zamak, since it was broken anyway...surprise! It actually stuck, not pretty, but functional. I will still make one, but now I can use the lathe meantime. "Weld-it" rod, made by Hobart, p/n 770206. As they say, your results may vary... Ron in CO... ------- Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 23:11:08 -0500 From: Jon Elson Subject: Re: 12 x 36 Lubrication for Back Gear rpm2290028 wrote: >Dear Group, >I have an early 12 x 36, 101.07403, with timken bearings and the 3/8" >ways. I am now starting to use the back gear a lot more, and I am >concerned that the back gear part of the main spindle isn't getting >enough lubrication. I am aware of the lubrication hole under the >set-screw in the second pulley, but I have no set-screw in mine( the >original pulleys that came with the lathe)and the hole in the bottom >appears to be a blind hole, I put oil in there but it doesn't appear to go >immediately on to the spindle. Can you actually see the spindle through >this hole, or does the oil penetrate sideways along the inner spindle? My understanding of this (I've had this apart a few times, but always forgot to take a good look at the bushings in the pulley) is that there are two brass or bronze bushings pressed into the ends of the pulley. This makes the center of the pulley a sort of oil reservoir. If the crud is cleared away, you should be able to see the spindle through the hole. The parts manual actually shows the bushings as separate parts. >I had the whole headstock apart a couple of years ago, and >everything appeared to be in very good shape, so I am hoping that >this hole is also okay. I can see a clean bottom to the hole, so its >not plugged up with crud at all. Any ideas? Hmmm, this is very odd. They might drill the hole in such a manner that there is a very small break-through right in the center, only, for the oil to get into the interior of the pulley. They can't drill this hole all the way through or the screw would bottom out on the spindle. You want the screw to bottom out on something that serves the purpose of a seal, so that it doesn't start slinging the oil all over the place, especially on the belt. Jon ------- Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 08:21:58 -0500 From: "Thomas Petersen" Subject: RE: 12 x 36 Lubrication for Back Gear Another possibility is that they did not drill the hole through properly (or drill an oil port in the bottom of the hole). On my Atlas 7" Shaper, the oil hole for the "Ram Adjusting Screw and Crank Lever Pin" was a blind hole. I found this while rebuilding the entire machine. I cleaned and scraped the bottom of the hole, but there was no hole (oil port) to let the oil out the bottom of the hole. So, when I had it disassembled, I drilled one. I always wondered how many people over the life of this machine followed the instructions on the Lubrication Chart to "Oil liberally every time the shaper is used". I am not exactly sure how similar the spindles are between the Atlas miller and Atlas lathe. But, based on Jon's description, it seems that the miller has a scaled down version of the same basic spindle pulley configuration. I just had the spindle on my Atlas MFB mill apart. The spindle pulley has two bronze bushing, one on each side with the oil hole between. The oil set screw hole for the spindle pulley is drilled through and tapped almost all the way through. The treads are not complete at the bottom of the hole. With the set screw out and a flash light, I can easily see the spindle and part of the front bronze bushing. Hope this helps, Tom. ------- Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 23:19:43 -0000 From: "rpm2290028" Subject: Re: 12 x 36 Lubrication for Back Gear-Success! Thanks Jon and Tom for your timely advice, good to get the ol' brain working. I took the whole headstock apart, which was a lot easier than the first time, which makes me wonder why I put it off :-) Perhaps everything slid apart because it was now all oiled nicely! The problem was that the two bushings were actually pushed together, so there was virtually no space between them, I was looking at the outside of the second bushing at the bottom of the oiling hole. I carefully pressed one out, so I could move the second one into its proper position, then the first one back in place. I was lucky, there must have been enough oil that seeped through the crack between the two bushings to provide enough lubrication. This is probably how they were installed by the factory, otherwise why would you move one out of place? It's probably a good thing for us all to check that oil is going where it's supposed to, otherwise it could get a bit expensive... Richard in Los Angeles ------- Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2003 22:48:44 EDT From: HUNLEY31x~xxaol.com Subject: Re: Adjusting play in carriage. <> Jeb, I'm not sure what model you have but my 12" is shimmed to adjust the carriage BUT, This is going to be hard to explain, bear (?) with me. To make things tighten up, you REMOVE the long thin and hard to see shims under the bearing plate. The factory puts 2 or 3 just for the purpose. Be careful to remove only one at a time. I though they were wear spots till I looked real hard. If you have visible play my bet is that somebody added shims in the wrong place. Hope this helps some. Hank ------- Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 00:39:42 -0500 From: Jon Elson Subject: Re: Adjusting play in carriage. You remove shims to get the play down to nearly zero. If the gib plate has a big groove worn in it, you can turn it over. The shims are laminated with .004" laminations. I usually fine tune with aluminum foil, at about .0015" each. A common problem is the shim gets caught by one of the screws and becomes accordion-pleated, causing massive clearance. Jon ------- Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 15:08:45 EDT From: LouD31M066x~xxaol.com Subject: Re: Adjusting play in carriage. Clean bed rails and mike them at several points from headstock to tailstock to see how much wear exists. If major variation exists it will complicate things. Shims are made to removed to compensate for the wear which reduces thickness of bed rails that saddle clamps to. Trouble is it seldom is a uniform wear. Most work is done in area near headstock and thus rails tend to worn more there than away from the headstock. If you tighten up saddle for area near the headstock it may be too tight to move at any other point on bed. You can set it up for most used region and reset when working in another area and live with it or you can set out to rebuild machine. Unless you have time and money to spare think things thru carefully. I have gone the full rebuild route with 6 inch 101.214 and it is not cost effective. I did wind up with a machine with a nice smooth feel and I learned more about lathe than any book could teach. If you have a piece of junk you may be better set it aside as a parts machine and look for one in better shape. Your machine may only need a minor tune up and adjustment and give excellent service. Hope this is the case. Louis ------- Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 22:39:09 -0000 From: "rpm2290028" Subject: Eliminating lathe vibration I have recently had my headstock apart on my 101.07403 12x36 C/A lathe, after problems with lubrication for the back gear. That went very well, but upon re-assembly, I noticed a lot more heavy vibration, that would even affect the tailstock, so i knew something had changed. I tested the headstock, which was fine, and what i had not done was to tighten up the lock bolt that runs through the two straps that hold up the motor platform - big vibration, with the counter shaft shaking away happily. Not realising what I had omitted, I experimented with various supports for the motor, eventually finishing at a simple wood block that transferred the weight of the motor directly to the bench, just enough to take the weight and still leave the linked belt tight enough to drive the lathe. All the heavy vibration has now gone, and all it took was a small 5" long wooden block. Being a sophisticated bugger, (English, we can't help ourselves!)I then made the block a two step block so that it would also support the different motor height on the second drive pulley as well. Jon explained some time ago about how the motor hanging off the back of the headstock tends to twist the bed slightly, so this too is eliminated with a simple block.Perhaps i'm the simple block for not thinking of it earlier :-) Richard in los angeles ------- Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2003 03:28:43 -0000 From: "KDSpriggs" Subject: Re: atlas 10" leadscrew reversing gearbox questions --- In atlas_craftsmanx~xxyahoogroups.com, "Jeff Lind" wrote: > I have a TH42 10" lathe that needs some TLC. When leadscrew is in reverse, the top gear (9-47) rides up on the stud (9-72) and gears bind and the drive slips. All three gears show some wear, from this. I can't tighten this stud up hard - it would bring the gear up to far away from the other two gears. < I had a similar problem with my Craftsman 12x24. It was not as bad as yours and my gears didn't appear to be worn very much, however the gears did not mesh close enough together. I fixed it by making a new stud and off setting the threaded portition of the stud from the main body. As I recall I put about .075 ofsett in it. As you rotate the stud the gear moves in and out, that is the depth of the meshing changes. When you have the correct clearance, tighten the nut. ------- Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2003 13:44:58 -0000 From: "jf53b" Subject: Carriage binding up while power feeding Help Please. I have a Craftsman 101.07301 Lathe. The carriage gets in a bind and breaks a tooth of the Carriage Traverse Shaft & Pinion (part #M6-68). This has happened twice in 4 months. I checked gib adjustment and made sure of plenty of lube on the ways. The pinion that I put in this spring showed alot of tooth wear and was missing 3 teeth. The first one that broke was the original and showed normal wear and was only missing 1 tooth. Is there anything else I should check so it doesn't happen again. BTW, I bought the lathe in Feb this year. Thanks in advance. Jim ------- Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2003 18:46:09 -0500 (CDT) From: dswrx~xxwebtv.net Subject: Re: Re: Carriage binding up while power feeding Jim, if you are using the power feed on the carriage, then the problem has to be in the rack and pinion. The handwheel on the carriage turns as it is just "going along for the ride", so to speak. I'm sure you have checked the rack for foreign material in the teeth. So... This means that you must have something in the gear box of the hand feed that is binding. I would remove it and check for loose metal bits that could jam the gears. Or even severe wear on the bearings allowing the gears to miss-mesh. Leo (pearland, tx) ------- Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2003 14:37:04 EDT From: catboat15x~xxaol.com Subject: Re: Carriage binding up while power feeding I never broke a tooth, but when my carrage got into a bind and I took the carrage apart I found a piece of swarf imbedded between the gear teeth of the second gear (two teeth of the pinion). Apparently the chip would end up in different places at different times. I picked that out and everything was free again. At least on my carrage there were some shims between the saddle and the apron apparently to adjust the engagement of the gears with the rack. I was careful (at least this time) to keep track of the shims and put them back in the same places. Maybe that is part of your problem and rather than use a gear with a missing tooth, I would either get a new gear or try to repair the old one with pins and some metal containing epoxy. I would recomend taking the apron apart and make sure all gears are clean of any chips. And while you are looking check out the bracket (die casting again) that holds the gears in place. I have heard of this casting breaking. I read where some have repaired it using brass strips and or metal powder containing epoxy. I don't think you can braze or weld the die casting if it is broken, so epoxy or JB weld is the repair. (Maybe JB weld with a strip of glass cloth inbedded in the epoxy, would be my first try.) John in the high desert of California ------- Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 12:19:28 -0700 From: "GuyW" Subject: Re: Digest Number 1642 / Chatter (long) >That little six inch is a LIGHT lathe. One way to avoid chatter is to... Here's a few ideas I've filed re chatter (some or all of which I may have shared here before)... -Guy- (From Dave Gingery email) "The most common error in lathe tool setup is allowing the point of the cutter to lead its mounting axis. For light duty machines it is necessary for the cutting point to trail its mounting axis, and that is the recommended practice on all machinery set up. When the cutting point leads the mounting axis the strains tend to pull the cutting point into the stock, causing chatter or worse. The effect is the same as excessive rake. For example machining brass calls for negative rake and some steel alloys are almost as difficult to machine as brass." SOME OTHER IDEAS (NEW TO GUY!) ON SOURCES OF LATHE CHATTER The following concepts (which I ripped off the Chaski board) don't affect the Gingery patterns and castings, but your ultimate assembly of and happiness with the lathe. Basic ideas on preventing chatter are apparently to create rotating "smoothness" in the basic lathe, and never to allow vibration or roughness to develop (duh, Guy!). I see this affecting our pulleys (straight & concentric enuff?), belts (some real junk out there) (V, round, flat or ??) and how cheap/loose the motor is. The idea of an intervening power shaft, clutch, and flywheel to isolate power surges seems very good, however, I lean toward a smaller type of lineshaft as compared to a huge old overhead system - perhaps a scaled-up watchmakers-lathe-type of lineshaft. -Guy- "hi, greg, the dalton is a really nice little machine, and will do good work once you have it dialed in. there's a "secret"...for getting good work from light machines....not really very secret, tho, cos the war production board put out a pamphlet about this technique back, during the war when every machine in the country was expected to work three shifts, 24 hrs a day. this "secret" is in the mounting...make up forms, and pour a heavy cement base for the lathe, somewhat like an elongated truncated pyramid, with a clearance area for the operator's feet. arrange a three point mounting for the lathe, and bolt the lathe down firmly with cement anchor bolts......the sheer mass/weight of the cement base adds rigidity and damps out vibration...after stripping the forms away, when the concrete has fully cured...pry the concrete base up from the floor, just enough to fit three dense rubber pads under it...three point mounting again. the magnitude of difference this makes with a light lathe in the south bend/logan class has to be seen to be appreciated. Mount the motor and countershaft either above or behind the lathe, on wall uprights or ceiling joists...making a small lathe "self-contained" may look pretty, but is a bad idea, 'cause any little bit of vibration or resonances in the motor or c'shaft will be transmitted to the lathe bed ...and the idea of the heavy base is to isolate the lathe from external influences, as well as to enhance rigidity. if you can find a light c'shaft clutch assembly, bush it nicely, make a hardwood sleeve to increase the diameter of the pulley face of the clutch, and use a small pulley on motor for single reduction...bring the lever for the clutch down to a convenient point over the lathe. the difference in convenience in having the motor run constant speed whilst you start/stop the spindle with a clutch, as compared to having to start/stop the rotating mass of the motor, may well be only a minor convenience, but its well worth doing. belting is straightforward.....since you're out in duvall, you'll have a seattle phone book...look in the yellow pages under "belting" or "power transmission".....best is to learn to "skive", that is, form tapered ends, and glue up leather belts....all belts stretch, and will need to be shortened from time to time.....or...have the supplier cut you a roll of a suitable width of light "oil-proof" cotton/rubber belting, get a "clipper vise lacer" (i've seen those come up cheaply on ebay) and run metal laced belts....well, there's a start....good luck....... : ) cheers, carla" (Poster currently unknown) "Carla's post was right on the money, as usual. I'll share a little of my experiences with you, as well. Years ago I knew a fellow in his 80's who had both an impressive collection of old engines and a reputation as a first class machinist. He and I became pretty close friends and he became a sort of mentor to me. When I began putting together my own shop, he helped me set up all the machinery and gave me the line shafting. Now, today a lot of guys will scoff at a bunch of pulleys and shafting lurking over your head but believe me, I wouldn't have it any other way. My first lathe was a sebastian and it had an adapter on it to support the cone pulley and the motor. It worked but I couldn't get a nice finish. Bill told me to get the shaft hung from the ceiling and bolt the motor to the floor and try it. The difference was amazing. Most of the motors we have available to us are not balanced nearly as well as we think and, if it is fixed rigid to the lathe, the vibration carries through to the machine and makes itself known to you as a fine chatter. I have run machinery with the motor bolted to the wall, and to the rafters, and both of those locations were noisy, the hum of the motor is a 60 cycle vibration and the building simply begins to resonate at that frequency. Most annoying. The concrete floor does a wonderful job of dampening the vibrations. Hang your countershaft and your lineshaft, you will belt your motor to the lineshaft and run a straight belt and a twisted belt to the countershaft clutch pulleys. Drive the lineshaft at 250 rpm (pretty much a standard for small lineshafts). If you have an induction repulsion motor, they are the best, they have high starting torque and start smoother than capacitor motors. Very few machine tools had capacitor start motors on them, they start with a jerk and tend to vibrate more. If you can get single ply leather belting, use it over canvas/rubber. The oil that invariably gets on the belts will turn the canvas/rubber belting into a gooey mess in 10 years. A single ply belt, about 3/32 thick and 1/4 narrower than your pulleys will transmit all the power you need. If the belt is too thick, it takes more tension to make it drive and is hard on the bearings all the way around. It is the friction of the belt against the pulley that drives, so a supple belt can conform to the pulley and do the work without pulling it real tight. I lace all my belts with rawhide shoelaces. This is easy to learn if you buy the Robert Smith books "Advanced Machine Work" and "Elements of Machine Work" from Lindsay. Metal laces slip and wear the pulleys. Rawhide laced belts can be lumpy if not done right and this too can set up a vibration. Cemented belts are wonderful but they are a pain to shorten when they stretch. It is advisable to slack the belts, if possible, when the machine is going to be idle for a period of time to limit the amount they stretch. I also have a 10" Logan and a 9" southbend and I have run both of them from a lineshaft for several years with good results. I wish I could run my B'port from it as well. The darn v-belt drive is a source of irritation, a new belt will run smooth for a few months and then get lumpy and start to vibrate. Maybe this is why Southbend stayed with flat belts on their lathes until relatively recently. Good luck with your machine, and if it seems like a lot of work to set up the drive arrangement, it is but you get out of it what you put in." ------- Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2003 21:41:57 -0500 From: "Jeb" Subject: Chatter much better - but Thanks for all the suggestions! I implemented some of them and my chatter decreased greatly. I am still having a problem with the finish. It looks like a lot of fine grooves. I placed some pictures under photos in the finishes folder. You need to view them full size to see what I am talking about. You will see some light chatter in one picture and the grooving on the other. Anyone have any suggestions? I am still using the lantern post on my 618. I tried three differently ground tools but, ended up with the same type finish. I ground some with a pointed end, a rounded end and one with a square type end. I hoping to get a QC tool post for Christmas and maybe this will cure the problem. Jeb. ------- Date: Wed, 08 Oct 2003 00:50:04 -0500 From: Jon Elson Subject: Re: Chatter much better - but I don't know if the chatter marks can be made any better. That is actually pretty good for lathe cutting of arbitrary steel. If you want a real fine finish, you need a toolpost grinder - and maybe a bigger lathe to use it on. The grooved one is pretty bad. Is this the same material as the "chatter" one? If so, the cutting tool must have been terrible. My best results with HSS tools was with a roughly 90 degree point set up such that one face was left, and one facing the work. The one facing the work would be tilted so that the point would touch first, and the rest of the face would be swung away from the turned surface by no more than 10 degrees. This seemed to make the best turned surfaces. On a 6x18, you can't have much radius on the tool tip or you'll get chatter. For the finishing pass, I would often advance .001" or less, and use high spindle speed and the slowest possible power feed. Sometimes I would change the gear train settings to get even slower feeds than were normally available. If these are not the same material, then the problem is obvious! Some materials look like mild steel, but simply cannot be turned to a fine finish. Annealing might help some hardened materials, but not all of them. Jon ------- Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2003 02:00:10 -0400 From: "mertbaker" Subject: Re: Chatter much better - but The chatter comes from improperly ground tooling/tool height, & slop in the machine. The "threads" are normal, as you are cutting a spiral of metal off the work. taking the finest feed, you get the finest "thread" effect. Rounding the toolbit nose will nearly make it go away, and a 60-70 thou "flat nose" will make it disappear. Use the flat nose as a final cut, taking only 1 or two thou. & a fine feed. Mert ------- Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2003 00:07:25 -0500 From: Jon Elson Subject: Re: 10" spindle chatter gauge-onex~xxwebtv.net wrote: >I have an Atlas 10", model QC54. I have noticed recently that the >spindle has started making a chattering sound - especally at startup or >shutdown, and at high speed. >I have traced the noise to the spindle drive pulley - the engagement pin >from the large gear is chattering around in the pulley. If I hold the >pulley and move the chuck fwd. & back, there is play between the pulley >and gear, and you can see the pin moving slightly. Moving the pin to a >different hole in the pulley made no difference. >The oil hole plug screw in the pulley does not touch the spindle on my >lathe. Is it supposed to? If it did it would help solve this problem, >by locking the pulley to the spindle and lessening the strain on the >pin. What have some of you done to solve this problem? When you use the lathe in back gear mode, you are supposed to put oil in that hole first. Otherwise, you get what you now see, the bushings inside the pulley have gotten worn. Don't jam it with the oil hole screw, that will mar the spindle, and you may not be able to get the bearings out of it later. If there is much play there, you may have to replace the bushings. If not, maybe just putting some oil in the oil hole will stop the chattering. Jon -------- Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2003 04:42:56 -0000 From: "donh213502000" Subject: No More Grease! I have a TH36 Atlas lathe which has the Vertical countershaft assy. The vertical belt tensioning arrangement puts the countershaft up high and directly in line with the operator (me). The countershaft bearings are constantly throwing grease and ruining my shirts and staining my glasses. This has been such a problem that I decided to fix it. Here is the fix if anyone else wants to correct this problem. Turn a new bearing holder with the following dimensions. Length 1.5 inches, (same as original countershaft bearing housing). ID should be drilled or bored to 1 1/8 inches. This ID clears the inner race of the new sealed ball bearings (bearings to be described shortly). The OD of the bearing housing should be 1.9 inches. The original housing is cast and is approx 1.8 inches at the fattest point. The slightly larger housing gives a little more metal to hold the new ball bearings as they are pressed in. After the basic houseing is turned, both ends should be bored to accomodate the new ball bearings. The bore depth shoud be .436 and the OD of the Bore should be 1.623. This bore will allow the bearings to be pressed in flush and this OD will give a .002 press fit. I bought 4 sealed ball bearings from allied bearings (price approx. $11.50 each). Part # R12 2Rs. Press these into each end of the new bearing housings. All that is left to do is to mill (7/16 dia.) the dimples for the adjustment screws in the middle of each housing. I milled the holes .1 inches deep exactly 180 degrees from each other. The ends of the housing can be radiused for sex appeal if desired. These units will directly replace the old unsealed cage bearings. Use the original shaft collars to hold them in the correct possition. The outer lip of the shaft collars may need to be turned back slighly so they don't touch the outer race of the new bearings. They may not last 50 years like the original. The balls do have less contact area. But, what the heck, with the money you save on new shirts, they can be replaced every 5 years or so. Your wife will probably appreciate less grease also. Great info on this users group. Thanks to all who have contributed. Hope my fix will help someone out. Don Harris ------- Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2003 09:03:24 -0000 From: "Ernest Lear" Subject: Re: No More Grease! Don. I have the same problem with my Vertical countershaft assy and I'm also about to renewing mine with more up to date bearings. I'm at the moment looking at what bearings and there cost on the market. And so far I've come up with using needle bearings in seal press steel housings plus harden steel inner rings on the shaft.These bearings and matching inner rings are supplied by Torrington's and their designation Numbers for these are HJ-122012(bearing) plus IR-081212(Ring). The price per each set is £22 inc. UK 17.5% V.A.Tax and carriage etc. A little more than yours. Now at the moment I'm at the design stage before I start making it up and also got to plan it, to use my original countershaft while I'm making all the new parts I will require. What you have done will help me to decide my final solution for my replacement assy. Ernest ------- Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2003 19:36:30 -0600 From: "Jeb" Subject: RE: Removed the back gear,1/8" ball bearing fell out, Bill Smith [mailto:andyjack32x~xxyahoo.com] wrote: >> Removed the back gear, 1/8" ball bearing fell out, and I'll be danged if I can see where it came from. Anyone know? My lathe is a Craftsman 101.7301. << Bill, there is a ball bearing between the right side of the headstock on the outside and the backgear shaft (the part of the shaft that has the short handle on it). There is also a spring in there. Jeb ------- Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2003 17:25:45 -0500 (EST) From: k-qx~xxwebtv.net Subject: Re: Removed the back gear,1/8" ball bearing fell out, Bill: There are two (2) ball bearings in the 6" head stock (checked the print to make sure I was right and get parts number). The 1/8" ball bearing (part # m6-214) is used with the plunger and spring for the back gear lock pin. There is also a 3/16" ball, (part # 9-10) used with the index pin and spring. Hope this helps, Ken ------- Date: Wed, 05 Nov 2003 15:00:11 -0000 From: "jdlt166" Subject: Help with AA/Craftsman Lathe Hi, Found this group while looking for answers to a problem I have with my old lathe given to me by my grandfather. My problem is that the faceplate has a wobble to it. I removed the spindle, cleaned the bearing and shaft, put it back together, tightened the front bearing, but still have a wobble. Does not look like the shaft is bent, but I could be wrong. Could the rear bearing cause this problem? Looking for some help. Thanks Rob Broehl ------- Date: Wed, 05 Nov 2003 15:21:17 +0000 From: "jo barden" Subject: Re: Help with AA/Craftsman Lathe If the face plate is wobbling could it be that the plate is out of true? if possible fit another face plte/chuck and check , I would have thought that the rear bearing if it is set right should have minimal effect unless it is badly worn, I would suggest using a test bar if possible, assuming the shaft has a morse taper, this should reveal all. Jo ------- Date: Wed, 05 Nov 2003 10:50:18 -0600 From: Jon Elson Subject: Re: Help with AA/Craftsman Lathe If the wobble is very slight, less than .010" at the edge, just face the faceplate. That is common practice when swapping and spindle-mounted item to a different lathe. If the wobble is greater than .010" or so at the edge, then the spindle IS bent. This is very common on AA products lathes, sold as model 109.xxxxx by Craftsman. Do you have anything else that mounts to the spindle, like a chuck? Does it also wobble? Jon ------- Date: Wed, 5 Nov 2003 09:35:11 -0800 From: "Bob May" Subject: Re: Help with AA/Craftsman Lathe What happens when the chuck is put in place? Check with some drill rod and it should be within a few thou. with a 3 jaw chuck for centering at the best point. Faceplates are often off of even by a fair bit as they aren't generally machined to the spindle itself. If you feel the need, find the high side of the faceplate and flip it over on the chuck and adjust the faceplate and the mounting piece to the chuck so that the error is the same and machine the mounting stop surface with a little skim to get it square. If you do a good job, you should be able to get it to mount to a thousandth or so for wobble. Bob May http://nav.to/bobmay ------- Date: Wed, 5 Nov 2003 21:20:44 -0600 From: "jerdal" Subject: Re: Help with AA/Craftsman Lathe Regrettably, the spindles of the AA lathes often ARE bent. They are very thin and bend easily. And the chucks which were supplied with the lathes stuck out a long way, making the chance of bending better by the leverage. That said, the faceplate COULD be out of true. The back bearing however would have to be noticeably loose to be a problem. Spindles are available from Earl Bower. http://www.bowermachineandtool.com Jerrold ------- Date: Wed, 5 Nov 2003 22:53:38 -0500 From: "Bill Hardin" Subject: RE: Help with AA/Craftsman Lathe And I stock Earl's spindles for sale at the same price, same day shipment. I did not find that my spindle was bent until I purchased a very accurate 3-jaw chuck. I had put an indicator on the spindle and thought it was OK. Anxious to test this "super accurate" chuck, I set up and found a .010" instead of 0.0004". Spindle. If all goes well, I will have added a link to Earl Bower's website to my home page by this time tomorrow. Bill Hardin www.homeshopsupply.com Craftsman 109 Lathe Support ------- Date: Thu, 06 Nov 2003 20:58:55 -0500 From: Guy Cadrin Subject: Couple of problems with a Craftsman lathe, with some solutions I joined the discussion group a couple weeks ago. However; I was reading the discussions on the web site. I want to share my experience and problems with the atlas/Craftsman lathe. I bought my lathe in 1990. (craftman 101.28990 12 in cabinet mounted). The lathe was in mint condition. The previous user almost never used it. Her widow told me that he bought the machine and became ill shortly after. After his death, the lathe accumulated dust for many years until she decided to get rid of it. It came with most of the accessories (chucks, backplate, steady rest and follower rest)in the original boxes, including a taper attachment for a 10 in Atlas, modified to fit a 1/2 in thick bed. I also got the milling attachment. The lathe served me well until 1997 when it was damaged by a water pipe that burst above it while I was away. I dismantled the whole machine and got the bed surface ground in order to remove rust damage. The machine came back together in a almost new condition, but my problems started: get everything re-aligned. I had to re-align the headstock, a big challenge, when you have no reference manual for machine tool reconditioning. I had a very minor play between the flat bed ways. I put a shim between the headstock casting and the bed in order to limit the motion at the chuck end of the headstock. At the end of the bed, I drilled and tapped a 1/4 in 20 hole on each side. Those 2 screws allowed me to fine tune the alignment of the headstock. I finished off with less than .0001 in per in as error in parallellism, quite satisfactory for a hobby lathe. After dismantling the lathe, I always experienced tailstock alignment problems; I could not rely on the alignment. I spent many hours trying to align it until I discovered last winter that the tailstock spindle was moving as much as 0.002 in when tightening it down. At that point I was not able to remove the tailstock because of the tight location of the lathe. (The tailstock couldn't clear the end of the bed as the bed was too close to the wall.) I moved to Gatineau, in July. In Sept, I dismantled the tailstock for a full inspection. With marking blue, I discovered that the contact between the upper and lower headstock casting was almost null. I scraped the top face of the lower casting to get it flat (using a small cast iron surface plate as reference). As second step, I used the lower casting as reference surface in order to get a good surface match between the two castings. As a consequence, I had to put a 0.001 shim in order to re-align in the vertical plane the tailstock and headstock. My problem has completely disappeared. I will be able to see the difference when I install the lathe permanently. (I still have to re-arrange my workshop.) When I see in the old publicity "tailstock is handfitted to bedways", I say "my eye". Last June, I removed the saddle for inspection. (I usually remove it once a year for clean up) I discovered that the casting had warped. (about 0.01 in) I needed to get the saddle flat ways surface ground as it would be too much of a scraping job to do. It turned out really good. I took the same opportunity to drill the tool room taper attachment holes at the rear of the saddle. I was then able to find the tool room taper attachment on ebay last month. I equipped my machine with 3C collets. why? They are much easier to find. South bend collet closers fit perfectly on the spindle. The draw bar: don't invest on that item if you are able to cut inside threads. it is easy to manufacture. The collet closer is also easy to manufacture as long as you can find tool steel and can harden metal. I have a problem of bed torsion when I apply pressure on the headstock. I suspect a lack of stiffness of the transverse metal holding bar where the bed is clamped to the base. (Dial indicator measurements proved that the problem is around the mounting bolts.) I hope some will take advantage of my problems. If any have recommendations on modifications to do to the cabinet in order to increase the rigidity, please let me know. I will start to work on this in January. Guy Cadrin Gatineau, QC Canada ------- Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2003 22:36:00 -0600 From: "jerdal" Subject: Re: Couple of problems with a Craftsman lathe, with some solutions > I equipped my machine with 3C collets. why? Hah, another convert......I agree with all of it. I would add that you don't HAVE to harden the closer, unless you do a lot of collet work. Mine is not hardened, but still works fine. When you make a closer, put a mark on it so you can put it in again in same position as when machined. It will be extremely accurate that way. Jerrold ------- Date: Fri, 07 Nov 2003 00:18:19 -0600 From: Jon Elson Subject: Re: Couple of problems with a Craftsman lathe, with some solutions Guy Cadrin wrote: >I needed to get the saddle flat ways surface ground as it would be too much >of a scraping job to do. It turned out really good. This stuff is fairly soft cast Iron. With proper scraping tools, it should be possible to scrape it in in one weekend, unless it was MASSIVELY warped. If it warped that much, you;d need to rescrape the crossslide ways too. >I have a problem of bed torsion when I apply pressure on the headstock. I >suspect a lack of stiffness of the transverse metal holding bar where the >bed is clamped to the base. (dial indicator measurements proved that the >problem is around the mounting bolts. Yes, this is a weak point on the Atlas design. On the machines with the countershaft behind the bed, there is a bolt on later machines that transfers the belt load between the countershaft bracket and the headstock. When you adjust the bolt just right, it almost perfectly balances the belt tension, and the bed does not deflect much at all. I wonder if there is a way to apply similar techniques to the underdrive model. It would take a vertical bolt that runs between the countershaft and the bottom of the headstock. You don't want the reaction to the belt tension to return through the bed. You want a direct link between the two ends of the belt to carry as much of that load as possible. Jon ------- Date: Sat, 08 Nov 2003 16:28:43 -0600 From: Jon Elson Subject: Re: Re: Couple of problems with a Craftsman lathe, with some solutions One of the tricks I learned from Machine Tool Reconditioning is to put a round parallel (I use hardened and ground shafting of known straightness) in the concave part of the dovetail to check the alignment between the spindle and the cross slide, to make sure the cross slide will travel precisely at right angles to the spindle. I used this to set the alignment when I cast Moglice on the bottom of the carriage of my Sheldon. It worked like a CHARM! Jon ------- Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2003 18:14:02 -0800 (PST) From: Michael Bush Subject: Rebuilding a 12" Craftsman. I was looking for a lathe a while back and passed on what looked like a fairly decent 12" quick change Craftsman. The lead screw was worn to a V thread near the headstock and the bed was worn to the point of having a groove worn on the outside. What does it cost to have the bed surface ground and can your average machine shop do it? What is the cost of replacing a lead screw, half nuts, and related items cost? How much work is that? Also, how expensive is it to put new headstock bearings in? TIA. Michael ------- Date: Fri, 07 Nov 2003 03:10:16 -0000 From: "carbure2003" Subject: Re: Rebuilding a 12" Craftsman. Re-grinding a atlas lathe bed is relatively easy, as long as you find a machine shop that has a large surface grinder. Plan for at least 5 hours' work. In 1997, it cost me $ 600 Can to get it done. I heard somebody that got a Logan bed reground in Montreal for $300 Can. According to my 1997 Clausing price list, a lead screw was between $212.00 to $250 depending on the model. Those show up once in a while on ebay. (less than $100.00) Split Nuts were about $25.00 US new in 1997. Replacing both, lead screw and split nuts for the first time would take about 3 hour work. (I could do it now in less than 1 hour as I know exactly how everything is setup on the apron). Removal of the lead screw on a Quick change lathe is a matter of removing 2 allen cap screws on the lead screw bearing. Depending on the type of job you want to do, it is not necessarly important to change the lead screw unless you want to cut precision thread. My lead screw has got a lot of wear caused by sand dust coming out of a casting I machined. I bought a new lead screw but uses it only when I really require accurate thread cutting capabilities. In that case, ensure you have a set of split nut used exclusively for that lead screw. Bearings are Timken bearings and can be found in many local bearing shops. ------- Date: Sat, 08 Nov 2003 16:39:02 -0600 From: Jon Elson Subject: Re: Re: Digest Number 1690 >jon my sheldon has a quick change tool post and i have investigated every >possible place where it can be loose and i have yet to fix the darn thing. >but i have not given up yet lol Well, of course, my Sheldon R15-6 is a different class of machine, but there HAS to be something wrong with it. It isn't SUPPOSED to chatter like that! I do have some experience with fixing chatter on lathes. I had a badly beat 10" Atlas years ago, and there were about 6 places it was loose. I got a Phase-II piston-type QC, and that helped. Then, one day, I noticed the oil film next to the BACK of the saddle was pulsating when I had trouble. I lifted up on the back of the carriage, and sure enough, the gibs that are supposed to keep the carriage from lifting off the ways was massively screwed up. (On the Atlas, there are laminated shims for adjusting this clearance, and if you are careless, the screws can pinch the shim and turn it into an accordion. The previous owner certainly did a good job of that.) High infeed forces on machines with light carriages can cause the back of the carriage to lift. So, check the tightness of these gibs, however they are set up on your Sheldon. there are tricks of how you position the compound slide that can affect the flex in the machine. So, try it at different compound settings. Before I started all these improvements, it was ABSOLUTELY impossible to part off anything, even PLASTIC, on that Atlas! After I was done, I could part mild steel with impunity, and even some tough aluminum deep-parting off work without great fear. (At least for me, aluminum seems to be more difficult to part off than mild steel. It goes fine for a while, then binds up suddenly.) The final fix was to replace the badly worn babbit bearing headstock with a roller bearing headstock. If the spindle is free to lift up in reaction to cutting forces, everything else doesn't matter a whole lot. Jon ------- Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2003 11:01:39 -0500 (EST) From: x xx Subject: Re: Re: Tail stock height glenco2x~xxjuno.com wrote: >>> I just aligned the tail stock with the head stock using a center in each one and found out that the tail stock is slightly lower, maybe 10 thou. any solutions to this problem. Glen 10" atlas <<< Shims 'tween the tailstock base and the stock itself. Depending on how you make the shims you might or might not be able to use tail stock setover thereafter, but the loss of that facility doesn't seem to be a serious detriment. Sam ------- Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2003 12:10:46 EST From: jmartin957x~xxaol.com Subject: Re: Re: Tail stock height As the bed wears, the parts supporting the carriage and the tailstock will become lower. So will the bottom of the carriage and tailstock. The headstock and the bed area supporting it get no wear, so they don't change. Eventually, you may have to regrind or scrape the bed and the other parts. Quick fix, though, is to add a shim between the lower and upper tailstock castings. John Martin ------- Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2003 17:08:35 EST From: jmartin957x~xxaol.com Subject: Re: Re: Tail stock height > If this is the case (likely), wouldn't shimming the tailstock make it > high if the tailstock is positioned to the right where there would be > less (or no) wear to the bed ways. Glen measured with a center in the > headstock and tailstock, so the tailstock was obviously very close to > the headstock -- the place where most bed wear would be likely. -Bruno While wear to the bed from carriage movement is typically greatest near the headstock, the headstock and tailstock on the Atlas lathes with which I am familiar don't wear on the same part of the bed. Carriage wear is on the outer part of the ways, tailstock wear is on the inner part. If he doesn't typically use the tailstock right next to the headstock, but measured the .010" low number at that point, it's probably not the bed but the tailstock base - in which case the shimming will help. And, if it's a combination of way wear and tailstock wear, shimming it to get it a few thousandths high at one end and a few low at the other may be the best compromise. Grinding or scraping the bed may be the only totally accurate method, but it depends on what accuracy he needs and what he is willing to pay or labor for it. Might also help to know exactly how he measured the difference. Clocking the tailstock ram with a dti on the lathe spindle should give the best reading. John Martin ------- Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2003 23:19:59 -0600 From: Jon Elson Subject: Re: Re: Tail stock height azbruno wrote: >Yes, the carriage does wear the outer side of the ways, so I stand >corrected. Now I am wondering how easily a bit of swarf could get >under the tailstock to affect it's alignment reading. Very easily! The Atlas machines generally don't have way wipers on the tailstock. Pull the tailstock and examine the bottom for gouges and burrs. You can carefully remove any burrs with a chisel or India stone. If using the chisel, an extremely fine touch is needed to avoid making new gouges and burrs that are even worse. Applying a chisel upside down allows finer control of how the edge cuts. Of course, if you have a scraping tool, that is far preferable. >Also, if the bottom of the tailstock is uneven, could the alignment >results then change depending on how far out the ram is? Just wondering. Absolutely! If the tailstock is canted at all, the extension of the ram will be on an incline. You should use the carriage to ride a dial indicator across the top of the extended ram to detect tilt. Of course, if the tailstock casting is worn, the ram can be raised and lowered at the front end. Then, a new keying screw is fashioned to allow the ram to be held up against the top of the bore. Many old Atlas machines can benefit from this trick. Jon ------- Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 14:40:48 -0600 (CST) From: dswrx~xxwebtv.net Subject: Re: Newbie with questions [NOTE TO FILE: All these questions have been answered over and over and... and can easily be found in the archives or in the files on this site. Leo and JTS kindly provided an excellent set of answers. See the archives or files here for more options.] "I've just bought a craftsman 6" lathe 101.07301 ." I have the same lathe, bought new in 1955. "...and the motor is now a half HP 1750 RPM dayton instead of the original." This lathe did not come with a motor (at least in 1955) Sears recommended a 1/3 h.p, 1750 rpm., so you are OK in that department. "... anything specific I need to check out or do to make sure things are properly aligned and lubricated before turning it on?" Make sure that the spindle bearings have lube in them. (10w, non-detergent) Oil the spindle thrust bearing (bearing on left side of spindle step pulley. Oil the gear train, and start off with the shift in neutral, so you won't have to worry about carriage, bed travel right now. Remove the oil screw in the spindle step pulley and the oil screw in the back gear cluster and oil them. "any suggestions on what kind of abrasive and/or solvent to use in order to remove surface rust and oily gunk without damaging critical surfaces?" My suggestions would be to use a rust remover solvent and a pad, such as "Scotchbrite". Clean carefully, just remove the rust... don't scratch the metal. "...- I was planning to bolt this lathe to a home built table with folding legs and wheels so I can move it out of the way when not in use. But then I found some tech tips on the Atlas site that really emphasize the importance of leveling the bed." The Bed Does Not Have To Be Level!!! (i know this will seen as heresy) The bed "levelling" routine is kind of misleading. The recommendation to "level" the lathe is just an easy way to make the bed rails co-planar and not twisted along their lengths. (the bed could be vertical, upside down, at a 45 degree angle, and it would not matter) Permanent and static mounting would be best, but you could mount it on a rolling table. Get the table reasonably level and then... Level the lathe bed ways so that your level (a precision level) indicates the same reading when tested on each way and the same reading when tested across the ways near the headstock and on the tail-end of the ways. (these readings, taken when the lathe is bolted to the table) Then, If your table top is very stiff (rigid), the lathe ways will be close to co-planar where ever you use it. The lathe has to "level" with itself, not the table, world, etc. Hope this is enought to get you started, Leo (pearland, tx) ------- Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 20:51:55 GMT From: jts4545x~xxnetzero.net Subject: Re: Newbie with questions Tips: Avoid using abrasives other than steel wool on the bed. Too coarse and you will change critical dimensions of lathe bed contact surfaces. Use a very fine grade of steel wool. Try Hoppe's #9 gun bore solvent, usually available at any gun store. Let it soak on rusted parts for a few hours. Then rub off with clean cloth. Use rubber gloves and lots of ventilation. Smell is quite pervasive. You can also try Kroil to penetrate rust. Kroil is very good for rusted rotating parts also. Check that all gears rotate smoothly and apply Kroil if seized up or binding from rust. They must all turn freely. When turning freely, use SAE 20 oil on rotating spindles and keys, not on gear teeth! Motor oil will suffice. Lubricate lathe bed surfaces with special way lubricant, Mobil "Vactra" brand is the most commonly available brand. Viscosity does not matter on a small lathe, but thicker is better. Use "cling type" outer gear or spur gear lubricant in a spray can on all gear teeth. Many private brands available from industrial supply houses and catalogs. Usually a form of molybdenum disulfide grease. If turning workpieces between centers, use center lubricant, "CIMCOOL Centersaver Waterproof Grease" is the industry standard. Available from J&L Tool catalog and local industrial suppliers. Ordinary grease simply will not do for this application. It will quickly fail under rotating pressures and let your centers get burned. The motor can be adapted with a bushing to match belt pulley in some cases. If not, get a 1/3 HP motor. Try to use a rigid base. An amazing amount of vibration is produced by a lathe when running. Folding legs will have to be be very heavily braced to to take such vibrations. These things should get you off to a good start. Broken handwheel should be replaced with one from Clausing Service Center. You can get handwheels from Reid Tool Supply catalog also. Think twice about using this for wood parts. Sawdust is difficult to remove from moving parts. ------- Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2003 15:21:20 -0500 From: "mertbaker" Subject: Re: how reduce backlash in lead screw? > Thanks to help from folks on this board I now have my new > Atlas/Craftsman 6 x 18 cleaned up, spinning and cutting. I notice > there's a fair amount of play on the cross thread and compound, but I > don't have a dial indicator yet to measure exactly how much. Are > there adjustments that can be made to reduce the backlash or is this > just a question of age and wear that I have to live with? This is one of the things that old 618s have. Solution is a new nut from Clausing at 30 bux or so, or a tube of loctite thread restorer from the auto parts store, which is what I used. The leadscrew & halfnuts on this lathe were OK. It was the cross slide nut that was nearly gone. The nut is brass, and the screw, steel, but there was quite a bit of wear on the screw, also. Works fine now, no binding at either end. Mert ------- Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2003 22:18:26 -0000 From: "bkfan2001" Subject: Re: how reduce backlash in lead screw? Hi Mert, I had not heard of someone using this repair before and it really irks me that I didn't think of it before. I have been in the auto parts business for several years and have also done my fair share of wrench turning and have used the Loctite thread repair system more times than I care to think about ( I was always kinda big & strong and just had to get those pesky bolts just as tight as I could, esp in aluminum) and it really works. Cast iron, aluminum, etc,etc, just about everything. Had no problems with having to redo repair either, seemed to stay permanent. Thanks for the tip. BK ------- Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2003 16:33:18 -0600 From: xlch58x~xxswbell.net Subject: Re: how reduce backlash in lead screw? One thing to keep in mind is that the screw is also worn, and typically near the headstock. This means that if you set it up for a good fit at the headtstock, the threads will bind at the tailstock. You may want to make/buy a new screw first. Another ancient dodge was to split the nut lengthwise and spread it with braze, solder or adjusting screws. Charles ------- Date: Sat, 03 Jan 2004 13:54:13 -0000 From: "johnlegowik" Subject: Replacement Drill Press Column I have an older Craftsman Drill press. Does anyone know of a way to get a replacement column with the rack and pinion arangement or a way to retrofit the column with a rack and pinion table...Thanks again. John Legowik ------- Date: Sat, 3 Jan 2004 08:15:57 -0600 (CST) From: dswrx~xxwebtv.net Subject: Re: Replacement Drill Press Column I have one of those older Craftsman drill press. The table (with a palmgren rotary table mounted) was a major problem when it came to moving the table up or down the column.I solved this problem, using the top mast (turnbuckle) used on three point hitches of tractors. You can get these from farm or tractors stores. Adjusting range is about 5". Only drawback is you have to reach below the table to adjust the height of the table, but it beats the "h" out of man-handling the table. Leo (pearland, tx) ------- Date: Sat, 3 Jan 2004 10:44:59 -0600 From: "TONY CLARK" Subject: Re: Drill Press Table adjusting Another solution to helping offset the weight of drill press or hydraulic press tables is with one (or more) of those deck lid struts that car makers love to use. They can be found with really long strokes and they are better than a spring since their spring force action is a lot less progressive than a compression spring... a couple of bucks at the salvage yard. Tony in Texas ------- Date: Sat, 3 Jan 2004 23:24:59 -0800 From: "Spurrs" Subject: Bending Zamac This may cause a little controversy. We all know that Zamac or Mazac die castings are brittle. Usually to our cost. Should you have a casting that is bent, not broken, it is possible to bend it back without breaking it. You need time and/or heat. One characteristic of Zamac is its poor creep resistance. Place a load on it so that it distorts and it quickly creeps to the distorted shape. Try to bend it back too quickly, it breaks. If you need to straighthen a casting, try clamping it to the position you require without causing it to set. Warm gently using a blowtorch, electric paint stripper or in the oven, When cool, the casting will have moved to the shape it was clamped to. I did this with a bent leadscrew reversing clutch yoke without problem. Nigel Spurr ------- Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2004 01:18:58 EST From: WaynesTrnsx~xxaol.com Subject: Re: Bending Zamac As a restorer and repairer of vintage toy trains I have straightened many zamac castings over the years. If you are going to use a high heat source such as a propane torch ALWAYS wear safety glasses. I have had castings explode from what I presume was moisture in an air pocket create steam. Regards, Wayne ------- Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 20:20:26 +0000 (GMT) From: John Bladen Subject: Timken Removal & Fitting I have stripped down the Atlas 10F and had a lot of difficulty removing the Headstock spindle. It proved to be an extremely tight fitting spindle gear and an even tighter fitting inner of the Timken Gear at the opposite end to the chuck. Having ensured that there are no burrs on the key way I tried to get the bearing on but it was simply impossible. The spindle is polished nice and shiny and I have tried fitting with plenty of oil on the surface and fairly dry. I put the bearing in the oven and when warm it slipped on the spindle quite easily but I did not get it fully home and moving it by tightening it using the threaded collar was proving to be very difficult. Because at some stage in the future I will have to replace a belt I decided to remove the spindle again and investigate further. This took an excessive amount of force to free it and I was getting worried about the casting but in the end it shifted. Is this common, because the book says that replacing the spindle should be possible with little more force than the palm of your hand? Can anyone tell me if there is a tip for the removal of the bearing. I can always warm it up to get it back on but the amount of force to remove it seems to against the guidance in the book and excessive. The inner bearing with the rollers is marked as 14125. Is this the correct bearing? John Bladen Milton Keynes UK ------- Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 15:58:16 EST From: LouD31M066x~xxaol.com Subject: Re: Timken Removal & Fitting Is inner bearing sticking on shaft or outer bearing sticking in headstock casting? Are you using a press and adapter to install bearing on shaft? Are you using a disc (or disk) and threaded rod to draw bearing into (or out of) the headstock? Is there evidence of a too tight fit? If more force is required to install than remove something is causing it. If you have large micrometer check size of old and new and diameter of spindle at several points. You can always remove enough metal to make a slip fit, BUT, that is the least likely cause. Prior string gave correct bearing numbers a month or so ago as Big Cone 16150 Big Cup 16284B Small Cone 14125A Small Cup 14276B I have not verified, but, no one corrected it on group so if I have copied correct it should be right for both 10 and 12 inch Timken Tapered Roller Bearings. Others may make equivalent. Most likely cause is dirt or crud in casting hole and a burr on shaft. If some force is required to install (and it is ) make sure it is not excessive. Hammer not good tool to use. Bearing Cone and Cup must be installed squarely on shaft and in headstock...some sort of press and adapters does job best. Heat is an extreme measure just like hammer. Can do more harm than good if your luck is not running good at time. Louis ------- Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 22:43:50 -0800 From: "Spurrs" Subject: Re: Timken Removal & Fitting I recently removed the spindle from my 10". The inner bearing race at the opposite end from the chuck slid off the spindle OK. The bull gear casting was a little more stubborn, a little warmth (not too hot to touch) from a paint stripping gun was enough to make it reasonable. The bearing inner race really should not be tight as you will have major problems adjusting the spindle nut preload. If too loose, the result will be chatter. I suggest that the suffering to make the fit right will be well worth the effort. If you check the diameter of the bearing race, check it in a number of places. It should be perfectly round but you never know! I am thinking of putting a slug of lead under each grubscrew to stop shaft marking in the future. The spindle nut grubscrew has one, but why not the others! Looks like You and I are working on similar timescale to complete repairs/restoration. Best regards Nigel Spurr Solihull UK ------- Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 23:55:39 -0600 From: Jon Elson Subject: Re: Timken Removal & Fitting The biggest problem with removing both inner and outer races is that grit gets packed under the lip of the race and is then driven into the seating surface. This ends up scoring the bearing a little, and the seating surface very badly. It is much easier if you use a pointed tool to remove as much grit from under the lip of the race before trying to drive it off/out. I used a series of tools and solvents to get as much stuff out of there as possible, and it was then much easier to drive them off. Getting a good bearing off for reuse is a tricky business. What you should have done, assuming you have access to a working lathe, is to make driving collars and plugs and use a gear puller to move the bearings. I made a set of these before tearing down a headstock, and was VERY glad I did, as my bearings were REALLY tight, too. For reinstalling, I heated the first bearing inner race, and cooled the spindle in the freezer. This made it slip on REAL easy. I froze the outer races and they went in real well, too. But the rear bearing (the last to go in) was a bit trickier. I used the gear puller to pull it in, and it was not too bad. Jon ------- Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2004 08:54:20 +0000 (GMT) From: John Bladen Subject: Re: Timken Removal & Fitting Thanks all for the advice on this. I spent some time trying to measure the inside of the bearing and suspect that it is not true. It was very useful to have the input and know that it has to be a tight fit but not as tight as it currently is. I will also try and fabricate something to press and draw the bearing in future. John ------- Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2004 14:08:38 -0500 From: David Beierl Subject: Re: Bed fixing and avoiding twist 1/14/2004, Spurrs wrote: >I suppose Atlas insist on level as it is obvious to all- provided that >you have a very sensitive level available. Atlas says "WHAT IS A PROPERLY LEVELED LATHE? On an accurately leveled lathe the bed ways are parallel or level with each other both lengthwise and crosswise." Sears says (in a 1944 bulletin) "...By this is meant the bed ways must be parallel or level with themselves and not necessarily 'level with the world.' However the easiest method of obtaining a level lathe is by using a machinist's spirit level thus making..." Both say that .001 total twist is unacceptable. Atlas goes into more gory detail than Sears about how it will ruin the lathe as well as the work. >2. Placing a long bar/tube on the bed so that it is vertical and >measuring a plumb line position at eact end of the bed. This is the same as using a level -- but to meet the sensitivity spec. (about 80 arc-seconds/division from the Sears bulletin; about 20 seconds from the Atlas bulletin, assuming an 8-inch level and 36" between lathe mounts) you'll need a vertical member either 22 feet or 175 feet long. A six-foot vertical will give you .1 inch deflection for about 300 arc-seconds, or .018/foot -- far less than you need. Twenty feet might be marginally possible, but given the narrow and flexible base probably not without going to large effort or expense or both for lightening. 175 feet is right out. Note: Making the assumptions that a) if .001 is completely unacceptable, then .0005 is tolerable and .00025 preferred; b) the measurement is taken over a six-inch distance from front way to back way; c) ten tenths (one thou) per division will be readable enough to let you achieve 2.5 tenths; then the minimum sensitivity would be two thou per foot or 35 seconds. That's halfway between the Atlas and Sears recommendations; however the level pictured on both is a precision machinist's level -- Sears specifically recommended the Starrett model 96. Starrett doesn't make the 96 any more, but their model 98 claims 80-90 second sensitivity for the 6-in and larger sizes. This leads me to believe that the Atlas spec is likely a typo. However if you're not allergic to Chinese product, the ten-second levels are pretty cheap on sale and will be easy to read. I got a 20-second Czech level from Victor that was extremely nice. It was supposed to be 10-second so I sent it back; now I'm sorry. My 10-second Chinese one works fine once I removed the cover over the vial, but it's U G L Y. I should make a new cover (the original has too much silk- screening and not enough viewing window, maybe I can clean it off). >What I am considering doing is bolting down the headstock end solidly, >but shimmed to leave a gap between the tailstock end and the stand. Then, >support on a knife edge the tailstock end of the bed. The bed cannot be >twisted by this form of location. Then measure the gap and fit shims >between the tailstock end mountings and the stand. The fixing bolts, I >intend to leave "nipped up" Not tightened I think an Atlas lathe would wind itself up like a corkscrew if it weren't firmly bolted down. Atlas specifies a *minimum* of 1-5/8" hardwood bench cleated or well doweled together, on 4" square legs bolted to the floor. david (neither guru nor expert, caveat emptor) David Beierl -- Providence RI USA Atlas 618 6"/3" lathe ca. 1941 ------- Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2004 14:12:40 -0800 (PST) From: Don Smith Subject: Repairing a Broken Gearcase From time to time I see posts from people looking for a gearcase for their lathe after the one they have has broken. This is the gearcase that houses the gears that drive the carriage along the bed. From what I understand, it is common for the gearcase to break. Anyway, not long ago the gearcase on my 10" Atlas broke into 4 pieces. After calling Jolene at Clausing, and finding out that the gearcase was about 64.00 without the shaft and gears, and 120.00 with shaft and gears, I decided to try and fix it myself. I "glued the pieces back together with J B Weld, then I built up the gearcase with J B Weld every that I could to make it as strong as possible, but not so much that it would interfere with the re-installation of the gearcase. So far it has been holding up very well and only cost me about 4 bucks for the J B Weld. Has anyone else repaired a broken gearcase with J B Weld? If so, how did it hold up over a period of time? Don ------- Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2004 06:06:32 -0000 From: "mtrsickleman47" Subject: Re: where to get bed ways reground / is it worth doing? I had the bed ground on my 12x24 Atlas last winter. It cost me $75. You need to call around to the larger machine shops in your area and see if they have a surface grinder that will handle something the length of your bed (in my case 42 inches).If they don't, ask them who they go to to get their large grinding done because they send it out to somebody, find out who. They should flip the bed upside down and grind the surface that the feet bolt on first then right side up and do the top and front and rear edges. The center of the bed should be supported during grinding to prevent sag of the bed on the large magnetic table. I think it was money well spent and no lathe restoration is complete without it being done. Good Luck! Zort ------- Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2004 10:14:41 -0000 From: "Ernest Lear" Subject: Re: where to get bed ways reground / is it worth doing? Yes I had my lathe bed reground but the small company that did the job was in Bristol UK. Walk in with it and a few hours later call back and pick it up. Made sure that it was being done, as to my requirements, before I left to get a coffee and for then to finish it off. Cost £60. It made and was in every way a big improvement to this lathe. As for hand scraping (or flaking as you put it) you need a lot of practice on something else and be very sure that you can get the results needed to do a lathe bed. Time is also a facture as it could take you a long time to get the finishes needed. You will also need a very large perfect surface table and correct angle plates to check the edges for square as well as being flat. Also the parallels sides got to be better than .001" over the length of the bed. Not easy by just hand scraping. So have a look around your local small engineering shops to see what they can offer in the way of doing the work or pointing you to the right place to get it done. If you don't ask you don't get. Best of luck. Ernest ------- Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2004 07:41:56 -0800 From: Mark Subject: Way grinding - or flycutting I was fortunate enough to benefit from a friend's shop and expertise (and generosity) - used his big mill to flycut the surfaceS (emphasis mine) of my 6x24 bed and slide and compound, all of which were probably originally machined when the castings were still "green". It looked to us like Atlas had flycut, rather than ground, the unit originally. I posted a rather lengthy story to the group at the time, which outlines some of the cautions to be taken. [SNIP -- SEE MARK'S MSG 13 OCT 2001 ABOVE] Have to do the top AND bottom of the ways, especially the back.... Took more than 60 dollars (or quid) worth of time, so you guys got a deal if the shop did the whole job mark ------- Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2004 23:11:44 EST From: LouD31M066x~xxaol.com Subject: Re: where to get bed ways reground / is it worth doing? After you get the relatively soft cast iron ways reground to near perfection (far better than new) think about, way oil, way wipers and cleanup after each use and wipe down and reoil prior to use...the wear process can be delayed if not avoided. Louis ------- Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2004 23:27:26 -0000 From: "throwawaytip" Subject: Re: Where to get bed ways reground - hand scraping as an option I wouldn't give up on hand scraping as a method of truing up a lathe bed if the services of a suitable machine shop wasn't readily available or you are on a tight budget. I scraped the bed on my 10" Atlas (54" bed length) to get rid of wear (.0015" at the chuck end and a similar amount out of straight on the front shear). It took 10 passes over the bed to correct the wear, at about 30 minutes per pass including bluing and checking with a surface plate and 4 foot straightedge (had to borrow the straightedge). This means that I was removing an average of .0001" per pass - not a heck of a lot in hindsight. The top of the bed is relatively easy to work on but the sides are a bit more difficult to scrape due to their small area. I finished up by bedding the underside of the saddle to the newly flattened bed. Big increase in parallel turning accuracy and a major improvement in rigidity due to better saddle to bed contact. I did have a little experience in hand scraping before I started but this was the largest item I had tried. The bed material is quite soft grey iron and scraped well with plain carbon steel scrapers. Regards ------- Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2004 20:23:02 -0800 (PST) From: Eric Johnson Subject: Need a Compound Rest for an atlas 6" Does anyone know where i could get a compound rest for an atlas 6" lathe? I thought about having it welded and then resurfaced but not sure how well that would work out. If anyone has any ideas let me know. Mine broke right in the T part where it tightens against the tool holder. Thanks Eric ------- Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2004 23:45:38 EST From: LouD31M066x~xxaol.com Subject: Re: Need a Compound Rest for an atlas 6" Ebay usually has someone parting out a machine and maybe reasonable although I highly recommend pricing with Clausing Atlas prior to any hasty moves. Parts may or may not be available from Clausing Atlas (574) 533-0371. Several used machinery dealers from time to time have parts and of course some group members have bone piles in which they may have something useful. Repair is an option if you have skills and detemination although welding a casting with a machined surface will probably distort due to heating and unless done right may not have strength required. Post welding remachining/grinding can restore accurate surfaces. I would think the best course is to find a good used part as repair will involve considerable effort and may not be anywhere near as good as new. ------- Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2004 02:10:16 EST From: n8as1x~xxaol.com Subject: Re: Need a Compound Rest for an atlas 6" Eric ...the t slot bearing surfaces for the tool post can be machined off,& replaced w/ flat bar stock , retained w/ flat head socket screws ( not CSSS )this is a common repair ..........would think the torn out parts could be brazed as well ......i wud be VERY cautious abt welding ....pre heat ,nickle rod,peening & slow cool down by someone who has done a bunch!!! (or u will be welding up the new crack right next to ur weld a new one was VERY pricy , when i hung the toolpost 1/2 off trying to extend the reach 45 yrs ago ,& tore out some pieces ....am sure much worse today the t slot on my 110 yr old 14 x 44 has been longtime repaired w/ barstock & slotted flat head screws.....& withstands all....... best wishes docn8as ------- Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2004 04:22:48 -0500 From: "Cindy & Wayne" Subject: Re: Need a Compound Rest for an atlas 6" Eric, I have made repair with brazing on cast pieces like the compound rest, with long-lasting positive results. Wayne Burner ------- Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2004 23:26:30 EST From: catboat15x~xxaol.com Subject: Re: Laser leveling Hi a few weeks ago someone on this list or related lathe list sugested that a laser level laid across the bed of a lathe could be used to level if you did not have access to a precision level. I did a bit of experiment today and it seems the idea has merit. I took an inexpensive laser level from Harbor Frieght that I use to "shoot elevations" on my back yard track and laid it across the ways of my 12 X 36. The orginal was to shoot to a horizontal line on the target wall, but realizing that drawing a really accurate horizontal line was again adding an unknown to the equation. So laid the laser across the ways and aimed at a single spot about 20 feet away. Moved to the tail stock end of the bed and again laid the laser across the bed aimed at the same spot. Found on a rough estimate (without really cleaning off the portions of the bed except for a wipe with a shop towel) that the difference in the height of the red dot was about 3 or 4 inches although the bed measures level by a cheap bubble level. I calculated with a 20 foot base measurement (aprox as the lathe is set out from the end wall a foot or so.) and estimated six inch wide base the measuring system gives a multiplication factor of about 40:1. In my opinion this would be a cheap way to measure the parallelism of the bed (not level, necessarly) with an inexpensive device readily available (and you can use the laser to hang pictures for your wife also, which most of would not do with an expensive precision level.) Therefore next time I start any major project I will follow the procedure with more careful measurements. I recommend this type of measurement for parallelism of your bed and I have not been wrong for almost 15 minutes now. Whoever suggested it, I want to thank you for thinking outside the box. John Meacham In the high desert of California ------- Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2004 12:36:40 EST From: jmartin957x~xxaol.com Subject: Re: Laser leveling Good idea, but I don't think the laser level will give you anything like the precision you'll want for accurately leveling the lathe bed. Graduations on a standard machinist's bench level are .005" per foot, which would be a tenth of an inch at 20 feet. Would be tough to read with a laser, I think. But, it's not the standard levels which are generally used to level a lathe bed - it's the master precision levels, with graduations of .0005" per foot. Which translates to one hundredth of an inch on the wall at 20 feet. Granted, you don't have to be within one graduation, but that's the kind of accuracy you're looking for. The 3-4" difference on your wall equals a .3" to .4" difference with a two-foot bubb