Bearings, bushings, and also spindles are very much the subject of this file. Repairing, replacing, and even making these items is discussed at length. If you got to this file directly from my HOME PAGE, return there by using your browser's back button. BUT if you came to this file as the result of a web search engine, see more than 70 additional files on my home page Machining and Metalworking at Home http://www.janellestudio.com/metal/ SAFETY WARNING BEWARE: DO NOT ASSUME that any subject matter or procedure or process is safe or correct or appropriate just because it was mentioned in a news/user group or was included in these files or on this site or on any other web site or was published in a magazine or book or video. Working with metals and machinery and chemicals and electrical equipment is inherently dangerous. Wear safety devices and clothing as appropriate. Remove watches, rings, and jewellery -- and secure or remove loose clothing -- before operating any machine. Read, understand and follow the latest operating procedures and safety instructions provided by the manufacturer of your machine or tool or product. If you do not have those most recent official instructions, acquire a copy through the manufacturer before operating or using their product. Where the company no longer exists, use the appropriate news or user group to locate an official copy. Be careful -- original instructions may not meet current safety standards. Updated safety information and operating instructions may also be available through a local club, a local professional in the trade, a local business, or an appropriate government agency. In every case, use your common sense before beginning or taking the next step; and do not proceed if you have any questions or doubts about any procedure, or the safety of any procedure. Follow all laws and codes, and employ certified or licenced professionals as required by those laws or codes. Hazardous tasks beyond your competence or expertise should also be contracted to professionals. Let's be really careful out there. (c) Copyright 2003 - 2008 Machining and Metalworking at Home The form of the collected work in this text file (including editing, additions, and notes) is copyrighted and this file is not to be reproduced by any means, including electronic, without written permission except for strictly personal use. =========================================================================== Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2001 09:33:01 -0800 From: Frank Evan Perdicaro Subject: Followup on back gear bushings > > One problem area is the bushings in the back gear sleeve, part > > 10-248. Atlas lists the "SLEEVE with bushings" and I can see why. > > There appears to be no good way to remove and replace the bushings > > in this part. My bushings are clearly quite worn (like every other > > part of the lathe) and need replacement. > > Has anybody replaced these? If so, how? > I use a Pilot Bearing Puller for these tasks. This puller is used > to remove the bearing in a flywheel in manual auto transmissions. front > end of the transmission shaft fits into these bearings. > It resembles a 3 jaw pulley remover, but with the jaws arranged to > open from the inside of the bearing and locking onto the blind end One member suggested tapping the bushings and pulling them out with a bolt. I had not thought of that. So I tried last night and it worked well. At least to the part where I accidentally crushed the replacement bushing. (Got a set of new ones this morning.) I do have one important optimization for this proceedure. Use the tap from a helicoil kit! Recall that a helicoil is a slightly oversized bushing for threaded fasteners. As such, the tap used to prep the work is slightly oversized with respect to standard fasteners. As a result, a helicoil tap will always be the correct size to remove a bushing of the same nominal size. As it happens I have a 1/2" fine helicoil kit. I ran the tap into the bushing then pounded the tap+bushing out from the other side with a drift and nylon hammer. ------- From: michaelhenryx~xxm... Date: Sat Aug 18, 2001 12:32 am Subject: Babbitt Booklet, was Countershaft Bearings In atlas_craftsman Jeff Swann wrote: > > The spindle shaft bearings (#9-109) on my Atlas > > 10-F lathe are worn out. Has anyone been successful in > > buying new replacements and where did you get them > > from? Part number? TIA JA Swann Jon Elson wrote: > Is this the Timken bearing version or the babbit bearing? > The Timken bearings (there are 2 sizes, and they come as > an inner race with captive roller cage and an outer race, > so you need to order 4 different parts) are available from > any bearing distributor. Look in the yellow pages under > Bearings and call the closest one. They can get them for > you in about one day, and the full set costs about $60. > > If these are babbit bearings, you have a real problem. > The only thing I know to do is repour them, an almost > lost art. Supposedly one of the woodworking groups has > a great article on the process in their archive. > The only other possibility is if some car engine uses a > split bearing insert of the right size, you could bore out > the old bearing 'cartridge' to accomodate the insert. > (That might actually be pretty neat, to be able to pop in a new set > of bearings in 15 minutes, once the cartridge has been modified. The Metal Web News has a PDF of an old booklet on Babbitt beraings in the Education section - the url is: http://www.metalwebnews.com/howto/babbitt/babbitt.html I'm the guy that scanned it in (Bill Gray converted it to PDF format) but I've never tried pouring Babbitt & can't offer any assistance other than a pointer to the file. ------- Date: Wed, 22 May 2002 14:36:18 -0000 From: "tjwal" Subject: Re: miniature bearing suppliers In atlas_craftsman, "markzemanek" wrote: > I've finished refurbishing and am in the process of setting up my > Craftsman 618, and the first item I'd like to make are some Crayford > type telescope focuser's. Might anybody know of a good supplier for > miniature ball bearings (in the range of 1/4" to 1/2" o.d.)? I've > been searching the net, but haven't been able to locate any yet... > Thanks in advance, Mark >> p.s.- I've also already tried Small Parts Inc... Mark: I had my wood router out last night and I noticed the guide bearing on the bit I was using. It is roughly 3/8" OD, Maybe 1/8" - 3/16" ID. They are available at hardware stores, Home Depot etc. John ------- Date: Thu, 23 May 2002 00:42:27 -0700 From: "GSNEFF" Subject: Re: miniature bearing suppliers Check out old hard drives for tiny bearings. They also have some really outrageous magnets in them. The bearings are really high quality and there are lots of scrap Hard drives around. Glenn Neff Medford, OR http://www.superford.org/?vID=1089 ------- Date: Thu, 23 May 2002 11:19:58 -0700 From: Jay & Anne Greer Subject: Re: Re: miniature bearing suppliers Over the years, I have found that bearings are the easiest of all parts to obtain in most any configuration or size needed. The last company I dealt with was King Bearing in Orange County California. I think that if you were to go on line and research "Bearings" you would come up with hundreds of suppliers. Best Regards, Jay Greer ------- Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2002 00:17:50 -0400 From: Stan Stocker Subject: Re: Babbit Bearings ??? Hi Charley; The material is indeed babbit metal. You set up the shaft in the shell, use babbitrite (sp?), plumbers rope, or oakum to form dams at either end, and heat up the shell to several hundred degrees, usually with a rosebud tip on an OA torch. The babbit is melted in a plumbers pot or ladle and poured through an opening at the top of one of the dams until it appears at the top of the other dam, where you left an air hole. Usually the shell has ears, prongs, depressions, something to key and lock the babbit in place. The completed bearing is then scraped and oil grooves added using small scraping type tools with the tips shaped to half circles or triangles as needed. The shaft is wrapped with a thin oiled paper or smoked with a pure acetylene flame before setting up for the pour, so the babbit doesn't stick to it. With the exception of setting up the shaft, the process is quite a bit like old school lead joining of cast iron plumbing lines. There are bushings with a babbit layer applied to the interior that can be pressed in, but straight babbit is very similar to lead free solder in hardness, I can't say I've ever seen or heard of a pure babbit bearing being cast as a separate part and then inserted. Some older gas engines have a babbit layer on the con rods, although this has been pretty much replaced with plated bearing liner materials. Split babbit bearings are still done in one pour, with shims typically added between the shell halves. You end up with some extra babbit, so as it wears you can pull a shim pair and rescrape to a running fit. Fine Woodworking did an article on pouring babbit bearings years ago, if you need the info you can probably find an index on the web, or drop me a line and I'll try to find the reprint book or issue number for the article. Heck, a google search might just turn up a page dedicated to babbit bearing work. Here's one link that shows rebabbiting the bearings on a trip hammer: http://www.metalwebnews.com/howto/babbet/babbet.html Hope this is of some help, Stan ------- Date: Sun, 17 Nov 2002 22:26:42 -0600 From: "Jerry Foulds" Subject: 12" Atlas/Craftsman with Timkens Something has always troubled me about my 101.07403. The oil cup is directly above the bearing outer race. Any oil that passes from the cup runs around the outside of the race to the bottom of the bearing without ever touching the rollers or inter race surfaces. The only way oil can get to the critical areas is to pool in the bottom of the bearing cavity. This takes a considerable amount of oil, and a good portion of it seeps out around the bearing covers, down the headstock sides and, eventually, onto the floor. What a strange design! A small strategically placed hole in the cover allows oil to be administered directly on the rollers and races in a reasonable quantity. Anyone else have any thoughts as to why Atlas chose to put the oiler in this location? J Foulds ------- Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2002 10:00:13 -0600 From: Jon Elson Subject: Re: 12" Atlas/Craftsman with Timkens There is supposed to be a wick in the bottom of the oil cup that delivers the oil to a good spot for it to be picked up on the rollers. I think it just dangles against the side of the outer race. Jon ------- Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2002 14:21:41 -0500 From: Jeff A Hammer Subject: Re: 12" Atlas/Craftsman with Timkens Jon, did Atlas discontinue this wick in the later models? There's no reference, picture, part #, or otherwise, to any wicks in the parts list/manual for my late model Atlas 12" or in the "Manual Of Lathe Operations...". Do you have any more information or was the wick just a smart addition that I should make to my lathe and if so, what's the material I should use that will allow the oil to flow properly and where do I find this material? Jeff ------- Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2002 23:29:37 -0000 From: "seb fontana" Subject: Re: 12" Atlas/Craftsman with Timkens Don't think a wick is that important; doesn't take that much oil to lube bearings. I have a early 40's 10" that I have been using [alot] for 25 years, has no wicks and hasn't worn out yet. Have two others as new as 55, they have no wicks and there is no evidence of lack of oil. Know this because I replaced the drive belts in all three at one time or another and there was no lack of lube. Yes, I took them apart to change belt..didn't think link belt would work.!! Don't worry, a few drops of oil every once in a while is sufficient..it still gets there somehow. Seb ------- Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2002 18:15:31 -0600 From: "Paul Siegert" Subject: RE: Re: 12" Atlas/Craftsman with Timkens Not sure this is of any help, but I'm quoting a letter, below, from Atlas Press dated March 21, 1942 with respect to a letter my uncle sent them regarding the perceived lack of oil going to the bearings on the Craftsman 101.07403 that I now have. Seems he had some concern regarding bearing lubrication when he received his new lathe two weeks before the date of this letter. "The bearings used on this lathe are not the usual bronze bearings but a special oil absorbing material called "Oilite". The reason that no oil holes are needed is that the material is coarse and will absorb about 40% of its own volume in oil. This means that the bearing itself will act as a fiiler and prevent dirt or other foreign particles from reaching the highly polished bearing surfaces and injuring them." It was signed by Paul S. Allen, Technical Service. Regards, Paul Siegert ------- Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2002 22:37:02 -0600 From: Jon Elson Subject: Re: 12" Atlas/Craftsman with Timkens I don't know where you can get this material, now. But, I've used cotton athletic shoe laces, and some other people have mentioned knitting yarn. I don't think it is real critical at all. Just something to slow down the rate at which the oil runs out of the cup. Jon ------- Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2002 23:13:44 -0600 From: Jon Elson Subject: Re: Re: 12" Atlas/Craftsman with Timkens The Babbit bearing machines did NOT have wicks, and didn't need them. The tightness of the bearing kept the oil in, until the bearing was shot. Then, it ran out fast, and you had to replace it fast, or it would seize up! With no wick in the Timken bearing setup, you're pouring oil through a 1/8" hole, and the cup will empty in 15 seconds. If the bearing dust covers are in good shape, that's fine. But, if they are chewed up, as they get after pulling the spindle a few times, the oil doesn't stay at the bottom of the bearing very long. The Timken roller cage tends to collect oil in the crevices, and does keep some around for a while. Jon ------- Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2002 23:26:26 -0600 From: Jon Elson Subject: Re: Re: 12" Atlas/Craftsman with Timkens >"The bearings used on this lathe are not the usual bronze bearings >but a special oil absorbing material called "Oilite". This applies to the 6" Atlas and Atlas/Craftsman lathes, only, as far as I know. The 10 and 12" definitely started out with Babbit, not Oilite, for the spindle. Jon ------- Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 06:59:36 -0000 From: "Robert Weersing" Subject: Re: 12" Atlas/Craftsman with Timkens I bought a package of felt at a fabric store that came with a dozen 12"X12" sheets for about $5. I cut out several small circles just big enough for each oil cup and it seems to work well. I have two Atlas lathes with original bearings dated 1939 and 1940 that are still in good shape so this system works. Hope that helps. Bob ------- Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 11:10:17 EST From: catboat15x~xxaol.com Subject: Re: Digest Number 1189 I don't know what years or models the wicks were there, but my 12 X 36 has the Timken decal on the head stock casting and has wicks in the oil cups on the head stock as well as the cups on the countershaft have wicks. Looks to be some kind of fibers, almost like old rope that has been unraveled, could be a loose felt kind of hard to tell as the wick is stained brownish from many years of oil soaking. I have never pulled one out figuring best to leave well enough alone. John Meacham California High Desert 12 inch Atlas, Minimill, rusty file ------- Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 13:09:04 EST From: LouD31M066x~xxaol.com Subject: Re: Oilite Oilite is a powdered metal pressing. Developed by Chrysler in 1930's. I worked in an industrial supply house that had a piece of oilite bearing with the ends plugged rigged up to a squeeze bulb so that when you squeezed bulb it pressurized inside of bearing and a film of oil appeared on outside of bearing, relax pressure and oil film disappeared. Really convincing demonstration as to oil content of porous but solid appearing metal. Louis ------- Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2002 21:33:09 -0000 From: "elperkins2003" Subject: Re: Babbitt to Timken In atlas_craftsman, "timharvey99"wrote: > > I'm new here, so forgive me if this has been covered before (I tried > the "search" utility, but it seems pretty ineffective). In 1987, I > bought an Atlas 10", H54 Serial 064410, that was said to have made > its way to Seattle from Whitehorse, Yukon Territory. > It has babbitt bearings. Does anyone know if it is reasonable to > consider trying to convert this puppy to accept tapered roller > bearings, like the real ones use? Is it easy, or am I dreaming? > Thanks for any advise you can throw my way, TimHarvey99 Why do you want to replace them? There is nothing inherently wrong with plain bearings in the headstock of a lathe, if in good condition. In fact, they can be better than Timken bearings in terms of smoothness and chatter free operation. The answer to your question though is that the conversion (using the original headstock) is probably not practical. When lathe manufacturers made these conversions, they normally redesigned the headstock casting to accommodate the much larger space required by the Timken bearings. For example, the South Bend standard 9"/10" lathes when redesigned using Timken bearings essentially became the Heavy 10. Look at pictures of the old plain bearing 6" Craftsman lathes Sears sold against the Timkin bearing versions sold directly by Atlas. You will see the headstock castings have been redesigned to accommodate the larger bearings. The only drawback to plain bearings is that they cannot be run at high speeds for extended periods of time due to lubrication problems. If you really want Timken bearings in your lathe you would be best to search for a used replacement headstock that was originally manufactured with Timken bearings. They come up on ebay from time to time. Perk in Cincinnati 6" Atlas/Craftsman 9" South Bend ------- Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2002 22:54:43 -0000 From: "timharvey99" Subject: Re: Plain bearings Thanks for that input, Perk and others. I agree, plain bearings are just fine, but only when they are in GOOD condition. They do wear out, and when that happens, you are looking at pouring new ones (I tried that on my '49 Chev, and I can attest that it requires some effort to get it right), or you think about how easy it is to take up play in a taper setup. Since I have to tear the thing down in any case, I was thinking maybe that's the time to switch, which is why I posed the question. The consensus so far seems to be ebay. Has anybody out there tried doing the conversion? Timharvey99 ------- Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2002 19:43:49 -0500 From: Ronald Thibault Subject: Re: Babbitt to Timken Tim: the only practical way is to replace the headstock, there is not enough metal to bore for Timkins. Now the good news, the swap is simple, just put the new headstock on, it is automatically aligned by the light press fit with the bed ways. I replaced the headstock on my first lathe, and was quite happy with the change. I got the entire headstock for $250, with spindle, bearings, back gears, etc. I then sold the back gears back to the used tool place I got the headstock from for $100. Now-a-days, you can probably get a better deal on E-bay. Ron Thibault Warrenville, SC USA http://home.bellsouth.net/p/PWP-ronthibault ------- Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 15:40:01 -0000 From: "n5kzw" Subject: Re: Babbitt to Timken Tim, you've gotten a lot of good advice as to why it can't be done easily. I have an alternate proposal - make an auxilliary headstock. The new spindle would have a female thread on one end to mate with your existing spindle, and the other end could be machined to match your existing spindle. Use two steel plates for the right (headstock) and left (tailstock) sides of your new headstock. Machine the bottoms of the plates to provide a step that is a light press fit between the ways, and use a spot drill centered in a 4-jaw chuck to mark the center of the spindle bore on the plates. Then take the plates to the mill and bore for your bearings. You can either make the plates thick enough to support the bearngs, or build up the plate in the area of the bearings. I suppose you could bore the end plates to accept a shrink-fit cylinder and then bore the cylinder to accept the bearings. The existing headstock will absorb the axial thrust, so you really don't need tapered bearings with preload, etc. Of course, you would have to rigidly attach a front, back, and top to the headstock (pinned and screwed). The width of the auxiliary headstock would determine how much radial load it would pass to the existing headstock. If you sized the bearings on the female end of the spindle to absorb the female end of the new spindle into the body of the auxilliary headstock, then your net loss in lathe capacity would only be the width of the new headstock. You've got me thinking now. I might try this on my 6" Craftsman 101. Good luck, Ed Bailen ------- Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 12:11:50 -0500 From: "mertbaker" Subject: Re: Re: Babbitt to Timken The best solution to the beat-up babbit bearing problem is to re-babbit. Very easily done, & it will last another 40 years. Your spindle will run as smoothly, & with less runout. Mert ------- Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 06:34:46 -0600 From: "Paul Siegert" Subject: RE: Re: 12" Atlas/Craftsman with Timkens Jon: The 101.07403 Craftsman is the Atlas 12x24, 30, or 36" depending on the sub catalog number used when originally ordered. Sears seems to have called for a few changes, i.e., the transmission system for the lead screw, but other than that, they appear to be the same. The manual that shipped with the Craftsman back in 1942 was the one for the standard Atlas lathe and not the one for the lathe they actually shipped that had the minor modifications requested by Sears. Randy Pedersen pointed out on the thread earlier that Timken bearings are of steel and the letter from Atlas must have been referring to "bushings on the counter shaft". I believe he is right. The letter I have from Atlas is dated 1942 and was referring to the specific 101.07403 model I have with Timken bearings. I haven't seen the wicks that are being referred to (I'll need to take a closer look when I dismantle a bit further), however I notice that the oil cups have what looks like "hub grease" in them. I talked to my 94 year old Uncle yesterday (who gave me the lathe a couple of weeks ago and who was the original owner) about this and he said this was the recommendation given to him by Atlas in the 1940's. Apparently as the bearings heat up while running it allows the grease to flow slowly onto the bearings. Anyone have any thoughts on this? I looked at a copy of the 1937 Atlas lubrication manual and it calls out Number 20 oil or equivalent for the head stock oil cups, as does the 1981 printing of the manual. Is it possible they never corrected the documentation when they made the transition from babbit to Timken bearings? Paul ------- Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 12:21:42 -0600 From: Jon Elson Subject: Re: Re: 12" Atlas/Craftsman with Timkens I HAD a 1944 !)" Atlas with the original book, and it clearly called for SAE #10 oil for both Timken and Babbit bearings. I used #30 SAE oil in the Babbit bearings because they were so badly worn, and the #30 took longer to run out. I switched to #10 when I got the Timken bearing headstock. Grease will run hot at higher speed, and the heating of the spindle will affect accuracy (at least if you are turning something and require consistent axial dimensions). Remember that the Atlas will go to 2072 RPM at its highest speed. I shudder to think how hot the Timkens will get at that speed with grease in them. But, you won't be able to touch the headstock in that area, I'm sure. I am quite sure that Atlas never specified such a thing in their printed documents, especially in the lube chart. I have seen the old wicks get gummed up with varius additives in the oils, and they need to be changed if they don't allow the oil to flow. >I looked at a copy of the 1937 Atlas lubrication manual and it >calls out Number 20 oil or equivalent for the head stock oil >cups, as does the 1981 printing of the manual. Is it possible they >never corrected the documentation when they made the transition >from babbit to Timken bearings? No, they made the transition, but there was apparently a difference of opinion on what was the best oil viscosity for the Timken bearings. The problem is to support cutting loads from 48 - 2072 RPM, with ONLY one oil grade! Not easy. If you never use speeds above 1000 RPM, the #20, or even #30 is fine. If you consistantly turn small shafts at 2072 RPM for hours on end, then you should be using #10, as even the #20 allows the bearings to heat up. The problem here is it takes hours for the spindle and headstock to warm up to equilibrium under these conditions, and the spindle is moving (I don't mean rotating, here, but its expanding and drifting in 3 dimensions) all the time this temperature rise is developing. If you never do precision work, you probably will never know this. But, if you need to turn pistons and cylinder bores, or make fine bearing fits, etc. you will eventually run into this. Jon ------- Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 15:00:00 -0600 From: "Paul Siegert" Subject: RE: Re: 12" Atlas/Craftsman with Timkens Jon, I have the original book that came with the 1942 version with Timken bearings, and I agree the lube chart calls it like you say in your email. However, my uncle said one of the techs at Atlas told him to use grease. Techs have been known to be wrong. However, that brings up another question that maybe you or someone else can help me on. I can't see where this "wick" is or would be, based on the oil cup (part 9-204) is in the casting right over the bearing and the left and right sides of the bearing are tightly enclosed inside the casting for the bearing with a dust cover on the right (part 10a-3) and the collar (Part 10-a-5) on the left. What am I missing or not understanding here with regard to were the wick is or how you see it or locate it? ------- Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 23:23:26 -0600 From: Jon Elson Subject: Re: Re: 12" Atlas/Craftsman with Timkens Well, I think you just have a small tail of the wick dangle down against the side of the outer race. You likely have to pull the whole cup out of the casting to insert the wick. You obviously don't want the wick to get into the bearing rollers, that could make a mess. Even if you don't have the wick hanging down out of the cup, it will absorb the oil and let it drip out slowly, rather than flooding the bearing with a cap full and then having no more for the rest of the day. For the grease, I can't imagine running the bearings hot enough to liquify grease up in the exposed oil cups. If my bearings ever ran that hot, I'd shut the machine down REAL fast and find out why. My bearings run slightly warm when run at high speed for an hour, and stone cold at all other times. Jon ------- Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 07:02:46 -0000 From: "Robert Weersing" Subject: Re: 12" Atlas/Craftsman with Timkens Hello Paul The old atlas books say to use 10 weight machine oil in the spindle, the newer Atlas books say to use 20 weight machine oil in the spindle. The countershaft bearings use any good bearing grease or cup grease. The bearings in my Atlas lathes are dated 1939 and 1940 and are still in good shape so the machine oil works well. Lots of luck Bob ------- Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 15:32:30 -0500 From: Chabannes Rene N Contr ASC/YCD Subject: RE: Re: Babbitt to Timken I called a friend who maintains and reworks equipment. THey don't do any babbit pouring. They replace these bushing with bronze of preformed babbit and ream to size when they do it in house. Rene N. Chabannes (Titan) ASC/YC - Productions Operations C-17 SPO, WPAFB, OH 937-255-1042 (DSN 785-1042) ------- Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 18:42:43 EST From: LouD31M066x~xxaol.com Subject: Re: Timken Bearings I don't know if this applies, but, when I went to bearing place to get bearings I asked if they had a better grade and was told yes, but, I wouldn't like the price. Maybe reason for very little play is very high quality bearings. Could also be preloaded a tad tight. Louis ------- Date: Sun, 1 Dec 2002 22:23:52 EST From: LouD31M066x~xxaol.com Subject: Re: Timken bearings When you get bearings and cups out take them to your local bearing supplier and compare prices for exact same item (Timken brand and part number). Most communities of any size have an industrial bearing outlet. My community of 30 to 40,000 people has several. These places know bearings. Service and price are very competitive, You can save serious money by shopping locally. Bearing may also be in excellent condition and not need replacement. If you have a good used bearing a new bearing is a waste of money. Be careful on how you remove things so as not to damage a good reusable bearing. Follow instruction from Clausing Atlas site. When you get them out wash in clean solvent and let dry. Do not use compressed air or spin bearing this damages the bearing. Under good light look for discolored, chipped, corroded, pitted bearing rollers or races ...any sign of damage or wear is grounds to replace with a new complete bearing assembly. The time and effort it takes to remove and replace spindle bearings and the relative low cost of replacements should be considered when evaluating reusing bearings. There may be more than one grade of bearing, if so, higher grade may be vastly more expensive. Ask Price before you order! Standard grade bearing is adequate for our Atlas lathes because even standard grade bearings are very very good. Louis ------- Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2002 07:12:05 -0600 From: "Randy Pedersen" Subject: Re: Timken bearings Louis: You are right this is the best advice when removing the bearings. More Timken bearings have been ruined by the person removing them than from wear. If one looks at the way a Timken bearing is made you can see why you do not want to beat on it with a large hammer. Every blow will either create a ding in the race or a flat on the roller or both. Actually anytime one is removing a bearing or shaft with a bearing attached you should use a wooden rod between the part and the hammer so it will absorb the damage rather than the bearing. I could not even begin to count the times and hours I have spent reworking a shaft just because someone (even myself years ago) thought that a little tap with a hammer was all that was needed to get it out. I now have a full set of wooden dowels in different sizes diameters and lengths that I protect just like my other tools. Some have even been turned on my metal lathe to certain diameters and then I just write on them what job they were made for. This way they don't end up being cut up and used for another project. Randy ------- Date: Sun, 19 Jan 2003 22:39:52 -0600 From: "jerdal" Subject: X-Timken Bearings If your accuracy is "gone" are you certain you alined the bearings and spindle for high spots? There are normally marks (burnished spots) on the inner bearing races to show the high spots., i.e. the maximum eccentricity spots. These must be in line at the two ends of the spindle in order for the spindle not to "wabble". Then, the second issue is that the high spots on the bearings are normally placed opposite the high spots of spindle eccentricity, so that they cancel. The manufacturer isn't going to tell you this stuff, in case you might succeed in fixing it your self. So you will have to figure out their marks on the spindle yourself. There are some, but no telling what they are. There may be similar spots in the quill, so that you get the races set with their centers in line and perfectly square. If you don't get the errors to cancel, the spindle will rotate around a point, destroying accuracy. The lining up of the bearing high spots is pretty important so that the force on the bearings is consistent. If not alined, the wabble will be accompanied by a possible variation in torque required during one turn, and an accelerated wear on the bearings. One part of the circumference will take most of the pressure, and may wear much earlier. If you take care of the above, and apply the right pre-load, it should be just as accurate as the bearings themselves allow. Jerrold ------- Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2003 22:07:27 -0800 From: "Patrick Lee Rooney" Subject: RE: X-Timken Bearings I hired a professional to come set up the spindle this morning. Four hour drive time and two hour service time. When asked if I could stick around and watch, I was told that I could learn the procedure for an additional 1 hour of shop time. This guy was incredibly organized, and had a service truck that looked cleaner than our local fire trucks. I half expected a crusty ole buzzard with a pipe wrench and a magic wand to bang around on my machine. This guy was half my age, articulate, knowledgeable, and not a bad teacher either. First off, I'd like to say how irritating it is for a machine tool manufacturer NOT to offer support for a machine they produce. Specifica- tions and procedures are guarded like national secrets. Proprietary knowledge and parts don't lend themselves to a happy customer base. No one likes to be strong-armed!! That said, there are ways around factory authorized service centers, as long as the machine is out of warranty. The spindle, the quill, and the old bearing races all had etched index marks, or "witness marks", that I never even noticed. Others had mentioned this (thanks Jerrold and Shane!) But I under estimated the importance of this and bearing pre-load. Both are critically important. The spindle is mounted in the quill on two precision hollow ground tapered roller bearings, back to back at one end, and one sealed ball bearing at the other. The roller bearings carry the radial and thrust loads, and the ball bearing floats in the quill seat to compensate for thermal expansion of the spindle. The roller bearing races butt back to back and are close enough so that expansion/contraction is negligible. I made several mistakes in setting up the spindle. The most glaring was in the orientation of the hollow ground in the races. It seemed logical to me to match the high with the low for a real nice fit when unloaded. Unfortunately, these hollows are used to set the proper pre-load, and the races are ground with these seats loaded against a flat surface. That is why the bearings felt strange when turned by hand unloaded..like they were riding unevenly on the race. They were. The races must be aligned high to high relative to each other, with the stars aligning with the witness marks on the quill. He set the preload without the rear bearing installed by tightening the thrust nut to eliminate all end play. Using a digital scale and a flat piece of nylon friction tape wrapped around the nose of the spindle, he continued to increase the preload about 20 degrees turn of the thrust nut. The races flattened out at this point, and the spindle turned with only a few pounds force on the scale. He indicated the nose and the ass end relative to the bearing seat in the quill, and they were perfectly aligned. The machine makes VERY accurate and quiet cuts now. I learned a lot too. Knowledge is a powerful tool. Also has me looking at my old Atlas with amazement. Practically a foot between the roller bearings, a light head- stock casting, and a very lightweight spindle. Can you ever really set proper bearing preload under such conditions? Given the pains many machine manufacturers go through to ensure proper preload, it is amazing that the Atlas is as accurate as it is! Thanks Louis, Bob and Jerrold for all the help and encouragement. I was ready to scream. Patrick ------- Date: Sun, 23 Feb 2003 16:51:21 -0600 From: "Scott Peterson" Subject: Small Bearings I've just done some searches for small ball bearings and haven't hit quite the right site. Does anyone have a link to a distributor who deals in such things (3, 4, and 5mm bores) in small volumes...preferably with an online store? The sites I've run across tend to be geared towards industry, wanting one to call daytime weekdays for a quote. I'm working towards building a propulsion system for an electric model plane. This includes the motor, a gearbox, and an extended propshaft with, possibly, a variable-pitch prop...lots of little bearings! Angular contact ball would be nice and miniature tapered roller bearings fantastic. I've also applications for miniature ball rod ends in the 2-3mm bore range. Any help would be greatly appreciated! Regards, Scott ------- Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2003 00:36:47 -0000 From: "ptlarry2003 " Subject: Re: Small Bearings TRY http://www.bocabearings.com They have what you need. Larry M. ------- Date: Sun, 23 Feb 2003 20:02:09 -0500 From: "Bill Rutiser" Subject: Re: Small Bearings The Small Parts Inc. ( www.smallparts.com ) catalog lists metric bearings with bores from 1 to 20 mm. Bill Rutiser ------- Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2003 03:02:17 -0000 From: "Thomas E. Jones " Subject: Re: Small Bearings I saw the two replies you got so far. My favorite source for mini ball bearings in "Tower Hobbies" which sells miniature bearings of many sizes for model radio-controlled cars, airplanes, etc. They sell most in quantities of 2, but also packs of 10 or so. They have many makers, both flanged and non-flanged. Most are sealed, but the smallest may not be. Go to their web site at www.towerhobbies.com and search on "ball bearings" and you'll get about 300 responses, with pictures. Order night or day online, and you'll get it in just a few days. - tj. ------- Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2003 16:28:56 -0000 From: "Jeff Gauvin " Subject: Re: Small Bearings I was just going to suggest Tower! Go to www.duratrax.com to see a listing of the bearings they make, then search for the part number at the Tower site. The bearings you'll get are "cheap" made-in-China pieces, but you'd pay 4x for precision USA bearings. Jeff Gauvin ------- Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 08:43:49 -0500 From: "Dale Malone" Subject: Re: Linear bearings and Seals > Anyone have a source for linear bearings and low friction seals > to run on 3/4 inch ground polished stainless rod? Try lee controls inc. Web site: www.linearmotion.com Dale Malone ------- Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 23:41:59 -0000 From: "Jim Knighton" Subject: Re: Sherline bearings --- In sherlinex~xxyahoogroups.com, "Ron Thompson" wrote: > Does anyone know what the bearing manufacturers part number is on > Sherline headstock bearings? Ron, Funny that you should ask, I replaced the bearings in my lathe just yesterday. They are 42mm OD, 20mm ID, 12 mm thick, industry number 6004zz. I don't know what the codes mean, but the box that mine came it were marked 6004zze. The stock bearings are made in Turkey (at least mine were) and are probably the cheapest stuff Sherline could find. I got some premium Japanese bearings (Nachi) from MSC, but no doubt you have a local source for stuff like this. I don't want to sound like a bigot since good quality can come from virtually anywhere, but Turkish bearings don't spring to mind in the same breath as "high quality". At any rate, as soon as I saw where they came from I ordered a new set for my mill as well. Regards, Jim Knighton ------- Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 21:42:34 -0400 From: "JERRY G" Subject: Re: Re: Sherline bearings Jim, Ron, The code zze is for double shielded bearings, Deep Groove, Seal / shield for longer life and lower noise. Regards, Jerry G (Gickstein) ------- Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2003 07:10:20 -0700 From: "Orrin Iseminger" Subject: Re: Re: Sherline bearings There is one thing to consider when replacing bearings in a machine tool and that is: Bearings of identical dimensions come in different grades or classes, the difference being their precision. I don't know if Sherline uses run-of-the mill ordinary bearings (IIRC, the common ones are Grade 3), but my Sheldon lathe uses precision bearings. Believe me, there is a difference. Ordinary off-the-shelf bearings can have considerable run-out. When I replaced the tapered roller bearings in it the local bearing distributor salesman didn't know there were differences between identically-dimensioned bearings. I finally gave up trying to educate him, so I went directly to Timken with my problem. Believe me, the guy got a telephone call from the company, right now! It didn't do any good, because he still didn't know how to specify precision bearings on an order. I went to another shop and the man behind the counter knew exactly what I was talking about. In spite of a total cost of over $500 for two bearings and having to wait a month while they were manufactured, it was a pleasure doing business with someone who knew how to pull all the right ropes. The moral of the story is this: You might not want to use three dollar bearings in your Sherline. Orrin ------- Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2003 15:44:16 -0700 From: "Orrin Iseminger" Subject: Re: Re: Sherline bearings I might add that bearings of identical part numbers come in different grades or classes. On Timken bearings, the only difference is an etched marking on the edge of the race. Orrin ------- Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 10:30:50 -0400 From: "JERRY G" Subject: Re: Re: Sherline bearings Orrin, some people would be aghast at the cost, but they do not know what it takes to make a set of really fine precision bearings. Those bearings will be performing long after a huge amount of three dollar bearings have been discarded. Regards, Jerry G ------- Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2003 09:56:00 -0000 From: "Jim Knighton" Subject: Re: Sherline bearings Orrin, Jerry, etc. I've been thinking about your comments and their implications. The Sherline bearings I removed from the headstock were marked C3, which I presume corresponds with the Class 3 you referenced. The new bearings were also marked C3, so I presume that I am now back within "like new" spec. Indeed, the lathe now runs, sounds and performs as it did when new. Hopefully, it will continue to do so for a long time to come. Suppose, however, that I was a real fanatic about this quality and precision stuff and wanted to have a lathe that was better than new? If this was the objective would it make sense to install better or different bearings than Sherline specifies? I just got through reading an interesting thread from another discussion group pointing out that one of the major "shortcomings" of the Sherline and Taig lathes in watchmaking circles has to do with the design and quality of the headstock bearings. I'm not an expert here and I'm only quoting what I read elsewhere, but the suggestion was that "cone bearings," whatever they are, are used in high quality jeweler's lathes and that they are somehow intrisically superior to the ball bearings used in the Sherline. Are these the same as tapered roller bearings such as the Timken? Suppose that I wanted to install "really good" bearings on my lathe. What would I look for? What would I stand to gain? Is it even possible to install "really good" bearings in a Sherline, and if so where might they be obtained? Thanks, Jim Knighton ------- Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2003 09:26:58 -0700 From: "Marcus and Eva" Subject: Re: Re: Sherline bearings Hi All: There are a couple of well ingrained prejudices operating in the assertion that cone bearings are "better" than others. A lot depends on how you define "better". Cone bearings are plain bearings in that there are no rolling elements in them, and they rely on establishing and maintaining an oil film between the bearing journal (which is cone shaped - hence the name) and the bearing race (which has the matching cone shape). The value of this system is that it can be easily adjusted to obtain the desired running clearance and compensated for wear. The system takes up relatively little space and can be built to a good level of precision relatively inexpensively. The disadvantages are limitations in speed, load carrying capacity and power losses due to drag. The high drag characteristics tend to make them run hotter than rolling bearings; this requires temperature management in critical applications. These bearings are also relatively fussy to maintain...they are intolerant of contaminants, and require a fully reliable source of the correct grade of lubricant at all times. Rolling bearings of all types are associated with lower friction, which is their principal attraction. The difficulty that the introduction of these rolling elements creates is that the precision of all the components greatly affects the concentricity with which the spindle turns. The precision of manufacture with rolling bearings is a much larger determinant of the spindle performance than it is with cone bearings, in which only a few things need to be right in order to achieve excellent spindle concentricity. Rolling bearings are also load limited (but by a different mechanism than plain bearings) but generally have a much wider operating envelope with respect to speed, lubrication requirement etc etc. That's why they're so widely used. It is possible to manufacture rolling bearings of exquisite precision, but the cost of such precision is extremely high because of the large number of parts that must be manufactured to submicron tolerances, and assembled under clean room conditions. The typical cost of a headstock bearing set for a precision lathe (like the Monarch 10EE with which I am, regretfully, too intimately acquainted!) is well over $1000.00 but the reward is a set of bearings adequate to drive a spindle with 6" diameter chuck and workpieces at up to 4000 RPM, and peel off 0.200 inch per side, from a 4140 steel bar while maintaining the ability to turn to a level of roundness well below 0.0001". That's a hell of an operating envelope, and it comes at a price. Going back to the Sherline and the bearings in it...you can certainly specify and install a higher grade bearing than stock if you want, but you must realize two things if you do. First, the bearings will only do their best if they are part of an integrated system...the concentricity of the journals and the bearing seats is critical to their proper performance, and the requirement goes up very rapidly as you go up in bearing specification. Sherline headstock bearing seats are bored on a twin opposed -spindle boring machine that is a dinosaur, bought used over twenty years ago. Joe Martin recognizes this, and makes certain that the boring machine is performing at all times within the requirements of the bearings he specifies, but you cannot expect such a machine to hold the sub-tenths tolerances required to get full performance out of a high precision bearing set. Second, you cannot, for most applications likely to be encountered by most hobbyists, tell the difference between a part made on a Sherline and one made on a Monarch without some pretty sophisticated measuring gear. Your choice of spindle bearings is not likely to be the limiting factor in the quality you can achieve, until you are making parts with a fair bit of mass. (Look at some of Jerry Kieffer's work if you don't believe this.) So, the take home message is that you'll likely gain nothing by moving to higher grade of bearing precision, and for the majority of applications, the stock Sherline will do a beautiful job. If you really NEED the precision of a truly dead-nuts spindle, get yourself something like a Levin or a Hardinge or a Monarch, and be prepared for the sticker shock. An "upgraded" Sherline won't likely do it and you'll have wasted the money you spent on the super bearings. Cheers Marcus ------- Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 16:22:32 -0000 From: "n2562001" Subject: Re: Watchmaker cone bearings & ball bearings Michael. Since you have brought up one of my favorite subjects my comments will be directed to whoever may have an interest. After doing several seminars in watch making circles I found that the preference for equipment seems to be more tradition than anything else. The underline theme of the National Watch and Clock Collector training seems to be that unless it is done like it was a hundred years ago it is not right whether it is or isn`t. I have several Brand name Jewelers lathe`s and like all other lathe`s some are more accurate than others. When doing seminars I always encourage the use of modern equipment because it takes less skill to do the same qaulity of work. I no longer use my jewelers lathe`s because I can do the same qaulity work much faster on the Sherline equipment. When doing Seminars the bearing discussion always comes up. However with all of the lathe`s present no one to date with these concerns has ever been able to demonstrate the superiority of a cone bearing jewelers lathe. I too was a non believer until I was open minded enough to try modern equipment. Most of my models have a percentage of parts that are considerably smaller than what is in a ladies wrist watch works. I firmly believe that had I not started using modern equipment I would never have developed the skill to do this. Jerry Kieffer ------- Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 15:38:13 +0000 From: dbshrumx~xxcomcast.net Subject: Bearing House Phone Number [atlas_craftsman group] Hi, I'm not sure if it was me that supplied the bearing house phone number but here's one that I frequently use: McGuire Bearing Co, 5516 First Ave South, Tacoma, WA (206) 767-3283 http://www.mcguirebearing.com/ I am in no way affiliated with this company but have, in the past, purchased bearings and seals from them for the restoration of both pre-war and post war antique BMW motorcycles. Usually what they need are the inside, outside, and width dimensions of the bearing. It's odd to me that they cannot cross-reference the bearing through the Craftsman number. Anyway, a good micrometer or caliper should see you to a successful conclusion. There has been some discussion on this site about the 'Timken' bearing being the only suitable replacement for those originally equipped with this brand. I find that Timken is only a brand and that their tapered roller bearings (which is what's in my 12" Craftsman) are no different than, say, those of SKF or FAG. When it comes time to replace the bearings, I wouldn't hesitate using another quality manufacturer's bearing. Regards, Doug Olympia, WA ------- Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2003 01:56:40 -0000 From: "azbruno" Subject: Re: Bearing House Phone Number - 101.21400 bearings In atlas_craftsman, "markzemanek" wrote: >Now THAT is some good information. Thank you Very, Very Much! So >any idea what bearing this company has that could replace the ones in a >model 101.21400? I don't need them right now, but when I do it'd be >nice to know the numbers...thanks in advance...Mark Zemanek Seattle, WA Here are Timken part numbers (and quantities), as taken from previous postings. 07079 Left bearing (1) 07100 Right bearing (1) 07196 bearing cups (2) Bruno ------- Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 11:48:09 -0500 From: Jon Elson Subject: Re: McQuire sent a bearing that's too thin, Bill Smith wrote: >for use as a thrust bearing on the spindle of my 6" >Atlas lathe. too thick or too thin was all they had. >The guy claimed I could just put a washer on either >side of the bearing. It came in 3 parts, 2 washers and >some ball bearings, in a sort of perforated disk. What >I need to know is must the washers fit the spindle >shaft tightly, or how loosesly is desirable? Thanks. No, they do not have to fit tightly. What you describe is a standard ball thrust bearing. The washers need flanges to ride against, and these flanges need to be quite "true" to the shaft, so that all the balls carry roughly equal load. The "washers" are really the ball races, and need to be constrained enough so that the balls can't ever run off past the edge of the race. Jon ------- From: "Roy" Date: Fri Jan 2, 2004 10:59 am Subject: Re: Making shafts fit roller bearing In gingery_machinesx~xxyahoogroups.com, "Dirk F Ganzinga" wrote: > Hi, when making Gingery projects sometimes a proper size axle is not > at hand. You can use a smaller size shaft and make the bearing > surfaces from black pipe. I wanted to use some discarded 35/17 mm > ball bearings. I only had 15 mm shaft, so I cut some rings from pipe > and turned them clean inside. After this the rings were glued in > position with metal glue (cyano-acrylic) and turned to 17 mm OD. A > quick, cheap and perfect fit in very little time That proceedure is common practice in everyday maintenance in machine shops doing repairs to build up shafts etc, if they do not have a spray type torch to build the surface up. Browning and others make a small sleeve as well to build up shafts etc for bearings to fit or seals to ride on. Another process that works fine is to knurl the area in question and depending on how and what way you knurl it, it can bring up a bearing area to size again. I am always in the need of doing things like this as I have a horde of all kinds of bearings and shafts and other assorted treasures of years of collecting discarded items, and no bearings or other items for that mnatter ever get tossed. So its always a situation where if I can't find what will fit together its make a shim or bushing etc. That's what makes home shop machining interesting. ------- From: "Dirk F Ganzinga" Date: Fri Jan 2, 2004 6:15 pm Subject: Re: Making shafts fit roller bearing > Thats what makes home shop machining interesting. Very true! When starting a project I first search the whole shop to find useable material. I hate coming back from the hardware store to see that I could have used stuff from myself. Often I have to change parts to make it fit. The other day I bought in a second hand bookstore the 1957 Geometer book "Workshop hints and tips", for $2. It's loaded with things like this, fun to read. It's also somewhere to be found in a Yahoo group. Dirk ------- From: "Mike Beaty" Date: Sat Jan 3, 2004 1:40 am Subject: Re: Making shafts fit roller bearing Dirk, that would be http://groups.yahoo.com/group/beginnerswkshp/ It's one of JW Early's groups, and I think you'd find all of them extremely informative Mike Beaty ------- Date: Sun, 20 Jun 2004 16:53:12 -0000 From: "mikehenryil" Subject: Re: babbit bearings For those interested in Babbitt bearings, I scanned a booklet on that subject that was published by Magnolia Metal back in the late 1920's. It was available on Metal Web News: http://www.metalwebnews.com/howto/babbitt/babbitt.html but seems to be unavailable at present due to server problems. Someone else uploaded what looks like the same booklet here, though: http://www.owwm.com/FAQ/Default.asp and there are a few other Babbitt files there that may also be of interest. Mike [NOTE TO FILE: THE FOLLOWING QUOTED INFO WAS FOUND ON THE FIRST SITE http://www.metalwebnews.com/howto/babbitt/babbitt.html BUT THE PDF FILE WAS NOT AVAILABLE HERE AS OF 21 JUN 2004. THE SECOND SITE MIKE MENTIONED http://www.owwm.com/FAQ/Default.asp HAD GREAT DOCUMENTATION AND PICTURES TO HELP REPAIR AND FIT BABBITT BEARINGS ON OLD MACHINES. LOTS OF OTHER GOOD REPAIR INFO.] >>>The Magnolia Metal Bearing Book Scanned and Submitted by Mike Henry Thanks to the expert scanning by Mr. Mike Henry, The Magnolia Metal Bearing Book (all 95 pages) is available for download in PDF format (Size 398K). This is a book printed in 1927. It contains much information on the metal, babbitt and how to use it as bearing material. Also the Magnolia Metal Corporation is still in business and can be reached at: MAGNOLIA METAL CORPORATION 6161 Abbott Drive P. O. Box 19110 Omaha, Nebraska 68119 Telephone: (402) 455-8760 Fax: (402) 455-8762 Contact: Mr. Bruce A. Wells, Sales Manager Mr. Wells tells us that Magnolia Metal's main focus is on bronze bearing material, however, they still maintain a stock of babbitt available for shipment. <<< ------- Date: Sun, 20 Jun 2004 21:45:11 EDT From: catboat15x~xxaol.com Subject: Re: Digest Number 1961 In a message dated 6/20/2004, atlas_craftsmanx~xxyahoogroups.com writes: >>>How best to test the bearings? Should I pull the cap and take a look or just wait till I get it running and see how accurately it cuts? Just from peeking down the oil cap hole, it looks awfully dry down there. I don't know what, exactly, babbit is supposed to look like.<<< Babbit looks a lot like soft solder. It is an alloy of metals having harder crystals in a matrix of a softer metal such as lead or tin. As it wears in (You have to be an old timer to remember when you had to drive really slow for the first 500 miles in a new car to "break in" all the babbit bearings on the crankshaft and rods.) Babbit wears so the shaft is supported and runs on the harder crystals while the softer stuff is supposed to allow any crud to become imbedded and to hold oil. To check your bearings you can do it this way. After the lathe is on your bench and well oiled put something in the chuck or just screw on a chuck or face plate. Use some kind of wood prybar (1 X 3 or 4) and see if the spindle is loose when you apply moderate force. If the bearings are good there will be very little or no movement. To see if they are too tight run the lathe for a period of an hour or so at a moderate speed. The bearings should feel warm but not hot. There are usually shims under the caps and sometimes an eager seller will pull out the shims to fool a buyer and the spindle feels nice and tight, but will heat up too much when running. If the spindle feels loose then you can remove a shim or two till it is tight again, and run it for a period to check you did not take too many shims. It may look as if there is one thick shim under the cap, but with a knife you can peel off the separate shims to make your adjustments. The way us old "pepper tree mechanics" used to adjust our main and rod bearings on an engine overhaul was to adjust shims so the bearing could be moved lengthwise with a rap from a hammer handle or similar but not pushed lengthwise by hand. I don't think you could do this with a lathe without removing any end play adjustments there. A babbit bearing is really a better lathe bearing than ball or roller bearings but will not stand abuse as well. Keep it oiled well and if adjusted right will give you many years of good service. You can not tell by appearance if the bearings are good or bad (Unless the lathe has been really abused and chunks of bearing material are dug out or the spindle in the bearing area is badly scored. I would not disassemble unless you really have to, the most would be to remove the caps to inspect the spindle bearing areas. I feel (may by being pig headed) that the less disassembly you do on a well operating machine the better.) Been there and one that on one of our plants all new pumps were taken apart and inspected then put back together, Lots of pump failures on start up. The next plant we built we just installed pumps as they came from the factory and had very few failures. As you run your new lathe be aware that the babbit bearing Atlas lathes were not designed for long periods of high speed running. If the bearings feel hot slow down or stop and let things cool off a bit. You can run all day at moderate speeds, but if you try to speed up like a wood lathe the bearings will not last long. ------- Date: Sun, 20 Jun 2004 22:41:43 -0500 From: Jon Elson Subject: Re: Re: babbit bearings RJ wrote: >>Pulling the cap is a good idea, often swarf gets into the bearing. If the bearing or the spindle is seriously scored, you have a problem. If it looks good in there, that is a positive sign. Make sure not to lose the aluminum laminated shims, and to put the bearing cap back on the same way. << >First off, let me say thanks to all that replied with advice and info, both on and off the list. I've learned ALOT about babbit since posing the question. Checked out a few web sites concerning same and will probably buy Vince Gingery's book from Lindsay, as well. I pulled the caps and looked things over, not really knowing if I'd see a problem even if there was one, but I'm thinking I'm good for a fairly long time, considering the minor amount of use I have for this lathe. My overall impression was that these bearing were replaced not long ago and have very few hours on them since. There was some discoloration and some tool marks but I felt they were a natural part of the replacement process. If I closed my eyes and felt them I couldn't feel any grooves or rough spots, other than one small "pit" where I'm guessing a bubble had been trapped. Before taking the caps off I put some major moves on the chuck and felt NO noticeable sloppiness and before I put the spindle back in I smeared a little white grease into the lower journals and when I slowly spun the spindle there was a nice, even coating of grease across the spindle shaft. One other thing that caught my eye though, was that the number of shims was different, front to back. Both the near side cap bolts had 2 shims; both the far (back) ones had only one. Don't know if this matters but it seems to me they should be the same to keep the cap level.< It sounds like your bearings have been repoured. If they did a good job, that is great. The trick, of course, is to get a good bearing WHILE maintaining alignment of the spindle with the bed. Not so easy to do! Don't worry too much about the number of shims, as long as the bearing is working right and the spindle is aligned. Keeping the caps level wouldn't be a concern, if you are talking about a difference of .002" front to back. I used to make finer adjustments with aluminum foil. >There were no wicks in the cups and you're right, when I looked inside all I could see was shiny spindle shaft. Will attend to this right away, and make sure the oil is plentiful. A couple other quick questions, if I may, concerning things I noticed as I was playing with this today, and both concerning pins. There is a pin that locks the bull wheel(?) to the spindle pulley. Should this be spring loaded, and locked in the *in* or *out* position, or do you just hope it stays where you put it? There is also an indexing pin of some sort that sticks through the case and nearly into the back of the holes in said bull wheel, but I can't get this pin to do *anything*. Does it push/pull, is it threaded...what? Don't want to force it.< Yes, the direct drive pin is supposed to have a spring-loaded detent ball, but if you pull hard, it can pop out, and the ball will just about be impossible to find. If there's no detent action, carefully pull the pin all the way out, and be ready to contain the ball if it flies out. There might be some swarf binding it, or the ball and spring could be missing. I think the spring is close to a ballpoint pen spring, and the ball shouldn't be real hard to replace, either. Possibly, the pin has been replaced, and the previous owner didn't put the detent grooves in it. The index pin is not threaded, and I don't remember if it has a detent or not. But, you should be able to gently rotate it with pliers and try to work it free. Jon ------- Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2004 10:04:58 -0500 From: xlch58x~xxswbell.net Subject: Re: Re: babbit bearings Jon Elson wrote: >>Don't worry too much about the number of shims, as long as the bearing is working right and the spindle is aligned. Keeping the caps level wouldn't be a concern, if you are talking about a difference of .002" front to back. I used to make finer adjustments with aluminum foil. << The number of shims(more correctly, the total height of each stack) is critical in that it establishes the bearing clearance when the cap bolts are properly torqued down, you need to replace them exactly as they were at the very least. Even then, there is the possibility that the clearance will not be as before due to how they spoon on reassembly and differences in torque applied to the cap bolts. The bearing caps do not locate the spindle, the bearings do. There will be some variation in a poured bearing based on the setup used, so you need to put it back as it was, or even better, buy some plastigauge and verify the clearance. Mixing up the shims or leaving a couple out is a great way to scorch your bearings. Even puting them all back in the way they came out, you will probably increase the clearance and lose accuracy if you don't recheck them. It is critical that you use a torque wrench when putting the cap on each time when using plastigauge, since any variation in bolt torque will affect the clearance. Babbit bearings are not hand fitted, so they are not interchangeable and the shimming can vary from one side of the cap to the other( not a good practice, but done sometimes to get that last thou or half thou of clearance) and from one cap to the other. This is pretty much what Jon was saying, but a quick read could have missed the point ( like I did the first time I read his comment) Charles ------- Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2004 09:19:57 -0700 From: "Bob May" Subject: Re: Re: babbit bearings Check the pointing of the spindle to see if the shim count is right. If the spindle is pointing high towards the tailstock then you may scrape a little bit off the right bottom half of the bearing to level the spindle. I'll note that odds are that the spindle is probably pointing in the right direction farily close to exactly where it should be if the bearings were poured right. I'll also note that as the bearings wear, the spindle will probably point higher as the right bearing will wear on the top and the left bearing on the bottom due to the forces involved in cutting on the lathe. Bob May http://nav.to/bobmay NEW! http://bobmay.astronomy.net ------- Date: Sun, 20 Jun 2004 22:30:11 -0500 From: Jon Elson Subject: Re: Excessive headstock play Chris Allred wrote: >I own a Atlas-Craftsman 101.27430 that I bought used. Everything >runs and works well except for the excessive play in the headstock. >the play is from left to right not front to back. I pushed the 3-jaw >tight to one side and set up my dial indicator and zeroed it out. >When I push on the other end of the spindle I it moves .043". I know >that WAY to much play in the headstock but I am not sure if the >bearings are bad or if there is supposed to be a collar or something >to keep it from moving left to right. Yes, there should be a threaded collar that adjusts the clearance. There is a gear for the power takeoff to the threading gears, and a spacer about 1/4" thick under that, then the bronze (I think) thrust bearing. Don't take out all the play, or it can bind up. Often, the gear gets bound on the key, and refuses to slide. You may have to remove the gear and file the key just a bit to allow the gear to slide. You might even need to make a new spacer to adjust for all the wear. Jon ------- Date: Tue, 07 Dec 2004 09:19:56 -0500 From: "Bob Alderink" Subject: bad headstock bearing -- newbie needs help I have an old Atlas 10" 'D' lathe that I inherited from my uncle. I have been using it recently to turn some small wood pieces (pen barrels on a mandrel). One of the headstock spindle bearings, the one on the right, developed a nasty sound and then stopped the spindle. The spindle still turns when I move it by hand. My question: Can someone tell me how to remove the bearing, where I might find a replacement, and tell me that I didn't ruin this lathe. Also, could you tell me the best way to provide the necessary lubrication for these parts. (The felts from the oil cups seems are missing.) I'd hate to have this happen again. Bob Alderink ------- Date: Tue, 07 Dec 2004 15:44:19 -0000 From: "drifter1951" Subject: Re: bad headstock bearing -- newbie needs help Go to this link: http://www.atlas-press.com/tb_10bg.htm#REMOVING%20HEADSTOCK%20SPINDLE It tells you how to dissassemble the headstock. Drifter ------- Date: Tue, 07 Dec 2004 12:16:07 -0600 From: Jon Elson Subject: Re: bad headstock bearing -- newbie needs help A D model almost has to have babbit bearings. Remove the two bolts on the cap and lift off. There are laminated shims under the cap, keep track of where they go. The babbit bearing lathes don't have felt wicks in the cups. The close fit of the bearings is supposed to retain the oil. You probably ran out of oil and melted the babbit. If the bearings don't fit closely, it is VERY difficult to keep them properly lubed. I had the same problem, and not having any idea how to repour babbit at that time, I replaced it with a Timken-bearing headstock. The babbit CAN be repoured, but it is a very complicated procedure to keep the spindle properly aligned. Jon ------- Date: Tue, 07 Dec 2004 20:20:29 -0000 From: "Rob Peterson" Subject: Re: bad headstock bearing -- newbie needs help >it is a very complicated procedure to keep the spindle properly aligned Repouring babbitt isn't THAT difficult. Babbit is available from McMaster- Carr. As for align-boring the headstock after repouring the bearings, that's not required. What will be required is that you do this with the headstock ON the lathe bed. To rebuild a babbit bearing headstock you'll need a bar to locate the headstock spindle in the headstock. Make one that fits the spindle taper or use a collet. This bar must also fit in the tailstock in some fashion and be strong enough to hold the weight of the bare spindle. Now, remove the babbit from the headstock casting by heating or chiseling it out. Either method works and the cast iron can take the pounding from chiseling as long as you hammer on the babbit and not the iron. Once the headstock is empty and clean you're ready to start. Use some lampblack on the bearing surfaces to keep the babbit from sticking. You can also wrap the bearing surface in oiled paper if you want to instead of using the lampblack. Set the BARE spindle in place. Use some babitrite clay to make catch-dams for the babbit on the outside surfaces of the bearing area on the headstock. Leave the bearing caps off for now. You can melt babbit on a camp stove in an old pot. Melt enough to pour one bearing half at a time. While the babbit is heating, pre-heat the spindle and housing with a propane torch. Just get it warm enough so that the babbit doesn't immediately harden when poured in there. Pour the babbit when it's melted and at the proper temperature (chars a pine stick) into the bearing cavity. It doesn't matter too much if you pour it over the bearing journal except it makes it a touch harder to get the spindle out. Once the babbit is poured, WALK AWAY for a few hours/overnight. Don't mess with it as you'll just mess it up. Once the whole thing is fully cooled off, you can pull the spindle out and file the babbit flush with the top of the casting. Replace the spindle and attach the caps with shims underneath. Repour and re-heat as above for the caps. Pour through the oiler holes. Once everything is poured and cooled, you can clean out the oiler holes and reassemble. All of this information is available in books. I think Gingery has one. Rob P. who has to repour his bandsaw bearings sometime soon. ------- Date: Wed, 8 Dec 2004 23:52:26 EST From: catboat15x~xxaol.com Subject: Re: Digest Number 2150 In a message dated 12/7/2004, > Repouring babbitt isn't THAT difficult. I think you left out one step. We found when pouring Babbitt bearings you have to "tin" the shells otherwise the babbitt wants to spin within the shells. Cost us a couple tries with redoing connecting rods to learn that trick. We would buy 50/50 solder bar, rub the cleaned up shells with Sal Ammoniac (Probably any acid type flux for sheet metal would work. This makes sure the babbitt bonds to the cast iron shell. John Meacham in the high desert of California 12 inch Atlas, Minimill, HF bandsaw, rusty file ------- Date: Tue, 07 Dec 2004 22:58:05 -0600 From: Jon Elson Subject: Re: Re: bad headstock bearing -- newbie needs help Rob Peterson wrote: >To rebuild a babbit bearing headstock you'll need a bar to locate >the headstock spindle in the headstock. Make one that fits the >spindle taper or use a collet. This bar must also fit in the >tailstock in some fashion and be strong enough to hold the weight of >the bare spindle. This is fine for the chuck end of the spindle, assuming the rear bearing is fine. If both are quite worn, you need something to hold the back end of the spindle. I've heard of people moving the headstock down to the middle of the bed, and then using an extra tailstock with the ram reversed in the bore (you can do this on the atlas after removing the handle bushing). Jon ------- Date: Wed, 08 Dec 2004 14:10:36 -0000 From: "robert_alderink" Subject: Re: bad headstock bearing -- newbie needs help --update Thanks for everyone's good advice. Just a point of clarification: the lathe is an "F" series not "D" as I said previously. So the bearings are the tapered roller bearing type not Babbit. From the discussion, this seems to be good for me. I am having trouble removing the woodruff key that's under the large spindle gear. I just can't seem to get enough clearance to pull it out. I must be just a millimeter or two away from pulling it out. ------- Date: Wed, 08 Dec 2004 16:04:15 -0000 From: "rumutt" Subject: Re: bad headstock bearing -- newbie needs help --update Lightly tap the spindle to the left till about half of the key is showing then take a small screw driver and lift the exposed end of the key. It should start to rotate up. Then tap the spindle to the left some more and lift the key again. Do this till you can get hold of the key and pull it out or till you rotate it out. Bruce ------- Date: Wed, 08 Dec 2004 20:23:15 -0000 From: "robert_alderink" Subject: Re: bad headstock bearing -- newbie needs help --update So close-- I have about 1/2 to 3/4 of the key rotated out. Just can't seem to get it the rest of the way. I can get a pliers on it but it won't budge. More tapping and pulling tonight, I guess. Bob ------- Date: Wed, 8 Dec 2004 15:54:21 -0500 From: "Kirk Scammon" Subject: Re: Re: bad headstock bearing -- newbie needs help --update Bob, try clamping onto the key with vice grips and then tapping on the vice grips, this worked for me. Kirk -------- Date: Wed, 8 Dec 2004 18:15:00 EST From: LouD31M066x~xxaol.com Subject: Re: Re: bad headstock bearing -- newbie needs help --update Anyway when you get the woodruff key out, by whatever means, it is a common item at your local hardware store. Getting the Timken bearing cups out or headstock casting is easier if you first clean out the crevice so the crap doesn't form a wedge and second have a disc turned to proper size to catch back of cup but still pass thru headstock opening...disc to have hole in center like a washer so bolt and nut arrangement can be used to draw cup out and later to reinstall new. Louis ------- Date: Thu, 9 Dec 2004 08:59:51 -0500 From: Nick Hull Subject: Re: bad headstock bearing -- newbie needs help >Try clamping onto the key with vice grips and then tapping on the vice >grips, this worked for me. I have a real handy tool for this stuff. It's a vice grips with a looong shaft for the adjusting screw and a sliding weight like a dent puller. Just grab the key with the vice grips and slide the weight to PULL and jerk the key out. ------- Date: Fri, 10 Dec 2004 14:43:11 -0000 From: "robert_alderink" Subject: Re: bad headstock bearing -- not getting any easier! After a bit of tapping and tugging I managed to pull out the key. I was hoping that the spindle would tap out pretty easily. I was wrong. (I think I know why Uncle never changed the belt.) After some pretty serious hammering, I haven't been able to free the spindle. I'm afraid I may damage something if I hammer too hard. Everyone's been most helpful with advice. Any tricks here that I can try? I managed to get the spindle even with the left side of the headstock so it's moved about 2" or so. -------- Date: Fri, 10 Dec 2004 13:12:29 -0500 (EST) From: x xx Subject: Re: Re: bad headstock bearing -- not getting any easier! Suspect you've suffered a common form for spindle abuse. A setscrew was made of harder material than the spindle and raised a burr that the pulley cannot pass. Now that the key is out, gently tap the pulley back where it lives, and preferably a little further. Then with a fine, fine file, like a needle file, very gently make a pass along the exposed spindle. Where it then shines, there is a high point. Work it down with the file. Tap the spindle gently to see if it will pass. Repeat as necessary. By and by the spindle will pass. It you are very gentle you will not remove enuff to make the pulley wobble. When you reassemble, be mindful of the setscrew problem. If you don't have a soft enough setscrew, nip 1/16" off a bit of brass wire that'll pass the setscrew threads, and let the business end of the setscrew step on that. Sam ------- Date: Thu, 16 Dec 2004 21:42:37 -0600 From: Jon Elson Subject: Re: that dieing bearing scream Jerry wrote: >Hi guy's, tonight whilst turning some ebony tool knobs on my AC I got >that dreaded scream of a dieing bearing in the headstock. Probably >one of the large spindle bearings - at least I think that's where it is. >I've gotten about 4 years of good use out of it so I'm not mashing sour >grapes here, but I'm wondering what's involved in tearing into this >thing. How can I diagnose the whole problem. Am I looking at an >opportunity to do a complete refurbishing and if that's my best choice >what else should I look at replacing? Is there anything else on this >that can scream like a dead bearing? Replacing the Timken bearings, if that's what you have, is not a big job. It really helps if you can get the lathe working for a few minutes to make some driver discs for the spindle. You make discs with a step on the OD so that they fit securely in each end of the spindle. One is to drive it out, the other to drive it back in. Also make a center drill on the face with the larger OD on these discs. You use a gear puller set to drive the spindle in and out with these. It is highly unlikely your Timken bearings have actually seized. More likely is that a big chip has wedged under one of the rollers and locked it up. You should be able to dig the bearing shield disc out of the headstock just behind the chuck and inspect for debris. A bad foreign object bind-up could damage the bearing enough to warrant replacement, but a small chip might be able to be removed and the bearing still be usable. If this is a Babbit bearing headstock, it is likely salvagable, at least in the short term. If the spindle is not totally seized, just unbolt the bearing caps and remove the spindle. If any babbit has welded itself to the spindle, remove it with a sharp knife, fine sandpaper, possibly even a fingernail. If the spindle is rough or gouged, you might smooth it with the finest sandpaper (be sure to remove all sanding dust before reinstalling.) Remove any chips and debris from the bearings, lubricate them well with SAE 30 or even STP and reassemble. Check clearance with a dial indicator, and fiddle with the laminated shims under the bearing caps until the free play is pretty small. Restart the spindle slowly at first, then allow the speed to increase, frequently checking for heating of the bearing. Also, there is a thrust bearing at the back, and it can tighten up under some circumstances (I had this happen on mine once for no reason I could determine.) Jon ------- Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2004 19:23:53 -0000 From: "Jerry" Subject: WHEW - Not a bearing! Color me "relieved and happy". My dead bearing scream was not a bearing at all as I originally thought. Something in the gear train associated with the feed reverse lever is the culprit. I'm now pouring through the books and Clausing web site trying to find out what can be dropping out of alignment in there. All the nuts holding the gears in place are tight but the lever is wobbly/loose. When the screaming starts I can wiggle the shifter and it will go away so I "think" I need to get in behind those two gears and tighten something up. My first cursory exam doesn't show any gears with busted teeth. Guess I'm just lucky so far. ------- Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2004 14:34:23 -0500 From: "Mark Babiy" Subject: Re: WHEW - Not a bearing! Jerry, when I was working on my machine, I had the leadscrew freeze up and I could not figure out what it was. It was stuck, I could not use the leadscrew, was able to keep the feed lever in neutral and could get the leadscrew to spin. The minute I tried to switch to forward or reverse it just died, the belt sttarted slipping, I thought at first it was gear teeth, something in the way, then went to broken teeth and then was stuck. In the end it turned out to be the one of the shafts in the quick change box where it met the body of the quick change box. It was frozen solid from what I think was use of grease rather than oil as a lubricant. Over time, with the lathe not in use, the grease got stickey and just simply froze around the shaft. I had never rebuilt the gear box and so with judicoious use of oil was eventually able to free up the shaft and the whole thing spins like a hot knife through butter. It was so simple yet so difficult to diagnose. Mark [Then Jerry replied: "I don't have the QC box on my machine so I suspect my solution might be a bit simpler, but, thanks for the observation." ------- Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2004 21:28:17 -0000 From: "Jerry" Subject: Re: WHEW - Not a bearing! I "THINK" I fixed my scream problem anyway. I punched out some .006" copper shim stock washers and put them under the heads of the bolts that hold the shift lever against headstock and the two FWD/REV meshing gears mounted on the lever body. The shim's snugged things up considerable all around. I ran the lathe for a while and no noise (except the normal klashing and groaning) - so maybe I'm fixed for another 4 or 5 years. Thanks for the help. ------- Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2005 18:46:08 -0000 From: "Rob Peterson" Subject: Re: babbit bearing clearances --- In atlas_craftsmanx~xxyahoogroups.com, "nic8559"wrote: > I'm new to the group, have recently been given yes given a old > atlas lathe. It is a 10" the only numbers on it are at the end of > the front way, they are 0723 also stamped next to it is the name > Chase Church. I'm a machinist by trade and decided the first thing > to do would be to give the old girl a thorough cleaning and > inspection, an easy decision since it came minus a chuck, any > centers or tooling. Not that I'm complaining, my question is what > should the bearing clearances be? Radial and thrust. The bearing > nearest the chuck had a couple of brass shims in the horizontal joint, > sorry I haven't measured them yet, the gear end bearing had only one. The 0723 is the serial #. Bed stamped serial #'s mean that it's an early model. Babbitt bearings confirm that the headstock and the bed are probably same era. Chase Church? Something rings familiar about that in the dim recesses of my mind but...... Babbitt bearings should have a couple/three thou clearance. The shims are under the bearing caps so that the clearances can be adjusted as the babbitt wears. Thrust should be about the same or less. Best determination is to set the clearance and then run the machine for a bit. The bearing caps should be warm but not hot. If hot, then it's too tight. If it slings oil like it's sitting on a petroleum reserve, it's too loose. Warning: DO NOT spin a babbitt bearing that has been sitting dry! Not even a little bit by hand. Take off the cap, pull the shaft and check for junk & dirt first. If it's clean in there then oil the journal and replace the shaft & cap and add oil to the cups before spinning the shaft. If you spin the shaft without checking and there's one little speck of hardened/dried crud or dirt in there, you'll score something and then you're going to have to repour the bearings and/or sleeve the shaft. There is a good chance of this happening if the machine has been sitting for several years without maintenance or periodic oiling. Expecially if the cups were left open for dirt to fall into (or are missing). This is the most common error people make with babbitt bearings. Rob P. who FINALLY finished making repair sleeves for his spindle that suffered from this sort of mistake (and others). ------- Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2005 13:05:51 -0600 From: Jon Elson Subject: Re: babbit bearing clearances The original setup had laminated aluminum shims, you peeled laminations off to compensate for wear. With a dial indicator mounted to the headstock, you would check vertical and horizontal free play with a 50 Lb load applied one foot from the end of the spindle. You should shoot for about .001" free play. This free play would be taken up by the oil film when running. Vertical free play can be fixed by reducing the shims. Horizontal free play CAN'T be fixed, except by repouring the babbit! That's the bad news! The axial free play is not very critical, .005" is probably fine in most cases. Almost any turning operation applies an inward axial thrust on the spindle, so the bearing only has to accept that force, it really isn't necessary to tightly constrain the spindle in both directions. Jon ------- Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2005 04:51:29 -0000 From: "camfambmw5" Subject: Next, getting the Races off [atlas_craftsman group] I purchased a press: http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v287/camfamdad/IMG_0108.jpg This is what I used to get the Timken bearings off the shaft. Now I have to get the races out. I have not even tried, looking for a couple of pointers first. I assume that some of you have accomplished this. Tips, pointers, etc. Thanks gang John ------- Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2005 23:56:43 EST From: gto69ra4x~xxaol.com Subject: Re: Next, getting the Races off Getting the outer races out of the headstock? It's pretty easy. Clean everything so dirt doesn't get in the way. The way I got them out was to take a metal disc the diameter of the races. I put that against the inward facing size, then used a large rod and a hammer to drive them out. Carefully, not as brutal as it sounds. GTO(John) ------- Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2005 00:13:34 EST From: LouD31M066x~xxaol.com Subject: Re: Next, getting the Races off Presume you mean the cup(s) that fit in recess(s) in headstock casting... they can be in very firmly. 1) Don't EVEN Think hammer...too much chance of breaking something. 2) clean all the crap out of the recess and pick out dirt around rim of cup so it is not there to jam things up when cup is forced out...a little fresh oil brushed on bore of recess might help things along. 3) Turn a thick washer just small enough in diameter to fit thru hole in casting yet large enough to act upon the cup. 4) make up a draw bar of a piece of 1/2 inch all-thread and make up bits and pieces to enable you to draw the cup out of the recess by turning a nut on the all-thread. 5) use caution in removing so you don't break something cast iron (like headstock) you will be able to apply an enormous mechanical advantage and something should give, hopefully the cup/race. If you apply a bit of force and cup does not move better to soak in a penetrating solvent of your choice than to give it a couple more turns...same method to reinstall...remember this is intended to be a tight fit so some gently force is the intended method...leave the hammer out of it! Easy does it. Louis ------- Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2005 14:15:37 -0600 From: Jon Elson Subject: Re: Next, getting the Races off gto69ra4x~xxaol.com wrote: >> I guess mine weren't very stuck in there. A few soft axial blows with a hammer on the forcing tool and they popped right out. Not even close to the danger of damaging anything. The harder trick is getting them back in. That's where the all-thread and mating parts come in handy. I pressed the forward cup in with the tailstock ram (in order to get everything square as a starting place) and then drew the rear one in. << Just drive them flush with the casting with a 2 x 4. Then, assemble the whole spindle assembly, and when you begin to set the preload, the axial force will fully seat the outer races. Jon ------- Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2005 20:53:34 -0600 From: Jon Elson Subject: Re: Re: Next, getting the Races off camfambmw5 wrote: >Jon, >I assume you think I will be successful in getting them off first ;-) >I did this a long time ago, but I don't recall it being very hard. >But, once I do, what is meant by "When I begin to set the preload", >my new-b-ness is shining right on through here. There is a threaded ring on the back of the spindle that stretches the spindle between the bearings. That stretch is called "preload". The bearing inner races press inward on the outer races and the headstock casting. After assembling all the parts, and tightening the ring until all slack is out of the bearings, you tighten it about equal to one tooth of that gear on the back. Jon ------- Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 11:23:13 -0600 From: Jon Elson Subject: Re: Re: Next, getting the Races off gto69ra4x~xxaol.com wrote: >I'd be wary of doing that. The force required to seat the cups is >higher than I'd want to transmit through the bearings. You'd really >be horsing down on that smooth threaded collar. If the bearing's nest in the headstock casting is completely clean, and a little lube is wiped on it, I think you'll have no problem seating them with less than the normal preload force. The preload puts at least several hundreds of Lbs axial tension on the spindle when it is cold. (The preload is ingeniously devised to reduce when hot!) If the casting is gouged up from driving the cups out with grit being ground into the cast iron, then you have a problem, and cleaning the burrs off the casting is a good idea. I found it took little force to drive the cups in, and the spindle and bearings pretty much guarantee driving them perfectly square. When driving by hand, you could easily do it crooked and make them bind up. Jon ------- Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 23:45:56 -0000 From: "jim_popa" Subject: Re: Next, getting the Races off John: I would lean toward pressing the bearings out...You can try to see if it moves with LIGHT tapping, but if you break the headstock casting you have a major headache... An earlier reply stated tightening the spindle nut enough to take out all play, then tighten another gear tooth. The manual says two teeth, then run the machine 1/2 hour to heat everything up and check for end play. I sold my 10" Atlas (TH48) when I replaced it with a 12" Atlas-Craftsman (101.07403), but I kept the factory manual. You need the manual for your machine, not only for setup, but for the wealth of info in there. It's about $25 + shipping from Clausing Service center. Call them: 574-533-0371 with your model and serial #'s. The book is part # 6600. They take credit cards. Hope this helps. Jim ------- Date: Wed, 02 Feb 2005 23:24:39 -0000 From: "Rob Peterson" Subject: Oh DRAT!!! Spindle sleeve repair [atlas_craftsman group] Trying to repair the spindle on my 618 Atlas. It's REALLY worn and grooved on the bushing surfaces. So, I turned the spindle .010" undersized for about an inch at the bearing surfaces and made steel sleeve bushings to fit that were .002" smaller in ID than the turned spindle sections. The idea WAS to heat and shrink the sleeves over the spindle then turn the spindle to restore the original diameters. Like I said: The idea WAS to do it this way. It didn't work. I built a small forge and heated the sleeves until they were red to white hot. I froze the spindle in the freezer overnight to give me the best possible chance of getting the sleeves over the unturned portion of the spindle before the sleeves got too cold. I clamped the spindle into a verticle positon right next to the mini- forge and got ready. Grabbed the tongs, scooped up the sleeve and dropped it onto the spindle... I only got about a 1/16" before the sleeve shrank and stuck. I think it's because the sleeve didn't have enough mass to retain the heat long enough to get into place. In any event, I now have to split the sleeve off of the spindle and go to Plan B. Plan B is to sweat the sleeve into place with silver solder and then finish the spindle repair as planned. This should work but then again, so should have Plan A. Once I have the spindle rebuilt, I'm going to turn a NEW ONE and replace the repaired one. I'd make a new one now, except that the Southbend I have access to in order to do this with is so sloppy that I'm positive that the new spindle wouldn't fit or wouldn't run true. Plus there's very little tooling to use and who can afford to buy tooling for someone else's lathe when they have their own to buy stuff for? Anyway, back to square 1. Rob P. ------- Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2005 15:51:09 -0800 (PST) From: Ken Tjomsland Subject: Re: Oh DRAT!!! Spindle sleeve repair Hi Rob, I've had similar experiences and I think you're correct that the sleeves would be more likely to work if they were of a "subtantial" wall thickness. You didn't say just how thick the failed ones were, but I would go for 1/4 to 3/8 wall thickness--to be turned down, of course, but even better to be finished by grinding if possible. At these thicknesses, you have enough mass not only to carry some heat, but also to provide a good lip to press on or drive on if that is necessary. Rather than .002" I'd go with about .0005" for the inter- ference fit. The forces generated by the .5 thou should be more than enough to keep the sleeve from spinning while in use. Then, heat only to maybe 6-700F -- the colors you describe are closer to "welding temps." And welding is not what you want ! The lower difference in temperatures will also transfer heat more slowly and that, too, will be in your favor. Shouldn't be too hard to make some more sleeves--the second attempt is usually a lot faster than the first. Let us know how it works! HTH --Ken Tjomsland ------- Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2005 18:15:01 -0800 (PST) From: james nicoletto Subject: Re: Oh DRAT!!! Spindle sleeve repair You may not believe this and most of you will think I'm crazy, only one of you knows for sure and he has seen this type of repair work. I work in a repair shop at a power station; we regularly repair bearing and seal surfaces with a product known as Belzona. It is similar to Devcon and JB Weld, you know the plastic steel stuff. Rough up the journal area, a coarse grit blast is best then goop on the plastic steel. After it cures turn it to size. It is a lot easier to do than traditional shaft build up methods like flame spraying or what you are trying to do and if it doesn't work turn it off try something else. ------- Date: Wed, 02 Feb 2005 19:37:27 -0700 From: Greg Smith Subject: Re: Oh DRAT!!! Spindle sleeve repair I will vouch for Jim on this one. They have done some amazing repairs out at the plant with Belzona. I love the stuff, because when the machinists use it, it saves ME having to build up the shafts with welding rod! http://www.belzona.com Best Regards, Greg ------- Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2005 12:02:24 -0800 From: "Bob May" Subject: Re: Oh DRAT!!! Spindle sleeve repair Pick up the propane torch and heat the sleeve and it will open up again and allow the sleeve to go in further. It is also better to make the sleeve just long enough for the bearing and also to turn the OD of the sleeve after you have it on as this provides more heat holding capacity for the sleeve. Bob May http://nav.to/bobmay http://bobmay.astronomy.net ------- Date: Tue, 20 Sep 2005 00:51:18 -0000 From: "sauer38h" Subject: Re: Atlas 618 bearings [atlas_craftsman] > I would like to strip my new (to me) 618 lathe down for a nice coat > of paint. While I am doing this, I would like to replace the Timken > bearings. Are these reasonably available, where can I get them, and > what part numbers do I ask for? Thanks in advance for any help this > group can provide. Tyros always want to replace bearings just because they happen to be at a stage at which it's easy to do. My professional advice as a machine design engineer with thirty years experience is - don't do it. Replace them if they've failed, not before. And don't hammer on them to remove them if you have any plans to reuse them. Some twenty-odd years ago I did enough design work on precision spindles that I know when to leave well enough alone. And I didn't ask the guys behind the counter at Bearings 'R Us for technical advice. They're good at finding the wrong bearing which will happen to fit your shaft and housing - which is not what you want to do here. ------- 2006 NOTE TO FILE: SETSCREW CONTACT WITH SPINDLE - PROBLEMS AND SOLUTIONS When a setscrew is used to hold a gear or pulley or other device to a spindle or axle or shaft, in time there is a good probability that the setscrew will dig into that shaft. The likely results: (a) the point or cup on the setscrew will raise a burr of shaft metal; (b) this burr, or scoring if the setscrew slips and the item spins/moves on the shaft, will make removal of the item from the shaft difficult even after the setscrew is unscrewed. Note also, some folks have put a second setscrew on top of the first to make sure it does not vibrate out. So make sure all setscrews are removed before trying to disassemble. To avoid the problem in the first place, several options include: (1) file a small flat on the shaft where the point/cup of the setscrew will contact it (now if it raises a burr, disassembly is unaffected); (2) place a soft (soft compared to steel) "grabby" object into the hole bottom between the setscrew and the shaft (it should be a size just small enough to slip past the hole threads)-- for example: - a ball of lead birdshot; - a short piece/slug of brass or copper wire; - a short piece/slug of aluminium (caution - aluminium may weld or fuse itself to the steel shaft, which can be a good thing if you never want the assembly to come apart on its own). Now if you succeed in taking apart a shaft where no such precautions were made, you will be motivated to carefully stone-off raised burrs and use (1) or (2) as above when you reassemble. This subject is also discussed within messages found here in files like: "Atlas Belts and Pulleys" and "Taig Lathe Tips". The "Taig Mill Tips" file has some ideas on removing stuck pulleys. ------- From: "Rob Peterson" harpyx~xxavenuecable.com Date: Fri Apr 28, 2006 11:51am(PDT) Subject: Re: 6" Craftsman 101 Lathe Replacment Spindle? [atlas_craftsman] In atlas_craftsmanx~xxyahoogroups.com, "Joe R" wrote: > Check on ebay for a head stock. By the way unless someone has messed > with them you have babbit bearings. Joe Actually, the 6 inch lathes were either Timkin or used bronze bushings. There were no 6 inch lathes made with babbitt bearings. There have been some statements that the bushings were sintered bronze (oilite) but that's not true either. The factory bushings were plain bronze and they are available cheap so replacing them is the thing to do when you get a new spindle. New spindles aren't cheap and the used ones tend to be worn out. If you can temporarily salvage your current spindle you can make a replacement on the lathe. It's not that difficult and is good practice for your machining skills. However, if you don't have a keyway cutter and mill, have a machine shop cut the keyways for you. Disassemble the lathe and take the old spindle with you to the machine shop so he can locate the keyways in the proper place. Bore the spindle after installing it so you can be sure that the headstock taper is centered/aligned with the lathe. Ditto with the chuck threads. ------- From: "Dean Kirsten" anglia1948x~xxyahoo.com Date: Fri Apr 28, 2006 5:48pm(PDT) Subject: Re: 6" Craftsman 101 Lathe Replacment Spindle? I checked the last price list from Clausing (1/06), and the 618 spindle is still listed, and is #M6-31, and is, er, ah, $240.41.... Yikes. I think you would be better off looking at a used head stock assembly on e-bay. Hope this helps... Oh, by the way, Clausing's number is 800-535-6553. Dean ------- From: "rakm70" tms-2x~xxcox.net Date: Fri Apr 28, 2006 7:32pm(PDT) Subject: Re: 6" Craftsman 101 Lathe Replacment Spindle? Thanks for all of the advice everyone. I was able to salvage the spindle. It's not perfect but will work for now. I'll keep looking on ebay for a replacement or may try to turn my own eventually. ------- From: "Leo Reed" lpreedzonex~xxearthlink.net Date: Sat Apr 29, 2006 6:45am(PDT) Subject: 6 inch Craftsman 101.07301 spindle bearings... Bearing material... I would like to quote from the manual supplied by Sears with this lathe: "NOTE: Oiless Bronze Bearings are used in the headstock and lubrication takes place by oil seepage through the porous bushing wall, thus assuring a filtered lubricant. DO NOT DRILL HOLES THROUGH THE BUSHING" The manual also recommends 10 weight oil. This manual and lathe was purchased in 1956. Leo (pearland, tx) ------- From: "Michael Fagan" woodworker88x~xxgmail.com Date: Sat Apr 29, 2006 3:00pm(PDT) Subject: Re: 6 inch Craftsman 101.07301 spindle bearings... Just a side note, I use oilite bushings almost exclusively. They are a significant increase in performance and not that much of an increase in cost. Even if the originals were std bronze it would make sense to upgrade them to oilite. Michael ------- From: "Leo Reed" lpreedzonex~xxearthlink.net Date: Sat Apr 29, 2006 4:20pm(PDT) Subject: Re: 6 inch Craftsman 101.07301 spindle bearings... > Huh, guess I stand corrected on the bearing material. Of course I've > never SEEN a 618 with oilite bushings. The only bushings I've ever > seen come out of these lathes have all been std bronze. Not that > I've seen so many that I'm an expert on them or anything. > RP > standing with his hat in his hand making a mental note to read the > fricking manual....... someday. Rob, others have expressed the same opinion about these bearings. There is a "web site" that states this. But, might mean that the bearings are "plain", as opposed to a "roller" or "ball" type. The manual does not say "oilite", but "oiless". I don't know exactly what the difference is, if any. I have always oiled these bearings during operation, and kept the cups full when operating the machine. It still has the original bearings, I have removed the spindle once. I loosened the cap screws to make sure the spindle would come out easy. My belt went bad (imagine, a v-belt only lasting less than 50 years!). I wish that I knew about link-belts then! I have noticed (and I believe other people have too) that the right hand cup needs oil often, while the left hand one does not. Leo (pearland, tx) ------- From: "Rob Peterson" harpyx~xxavenuecable.com Date: Sat May 20, 2006 3:25pm(PDT) Subject: Re: Spindle Bearing cup remove/install In atlas618lathe, "tooljunkie3j" wrote: > I tried a search-bearing cup removal and spindle bearing cup removal- > maybe I should have put race instead of cup.... When I was restoring my 618 I had to replace the Gits oilers as the headstock didn't have any when I got it. I got a damaged headstock which had the oilers in it (along with the headstock cover which is what I got it for in the first place). I just used a small dent puller to pull the oilers out of the headstock. Worked like a charm. To install I opened the oiler top and put a piece of Oak onto the "stem". Tap, tap tap and into the headstock it went. Simple. RP ------- Bearings for head stock [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: "kevin_smith322" kevin_smith322x~xxyahoo.com Date: Thu Jul 6, 2006 3:15 pm (PDT) I have a 1936 model. Is it hard to upgrade from the babbit bearing set up to the timkin bearings? What is needed? I read that this was available as a option in 1936. ------- Re: Bearings for head stock Posted by: "xlch58x~xxswbell.net" xlch58x~xxswbell.net Date: Thu Jul 6, 2006 3:55 pm (PDT) You basically replace the whole headstock and chuck the one you have. If the bearings aren't worn, I would personally run it like it is. They will weep some oil, which gets newbies all excited, but once you actually use a lathe you figure out that the whole damn lathe is designed to not just weep a little oil here and there, but to sling it into every corner of your shop. Actually not quite that bad, but the ways need regular oiling, the gears need to be oiled, carriage, tailstock ram, lead screw, all of which are open and will drip a little here and there. Chuck up a stout bar and see what sort of deflection you are getting in the SPINDLE bearings. I emphasize that since wear in the chuck can add to the deflection you see. If there is none, run it till there is, then figure out if you want to replace it or just repair the babbit bearings. I'm betting that if they are solid now, you won't wear them out in a hobby shop in your lifetime if you keep them oiled. Some of them get toasted I think because people mistake the dried oil encrusted bit of cotton that is a filter in the oil cap for grease. They then add more grease which doesn't reach the bearings till the whole assembly gets really hot, which only happens when you are wearing the crap out of it for lack of lubrication. One quick fix that I tell newbies that are worried about the accuracy of their old lathe is to make chips with it. For some reason, old lathes tend to get more and more accurate the more chips you make with them. After you fill three or four 2lb coffee cans with chips, it will be at its peak and you can judge what needs replacing, repairing or whatnot at that point. Charles ------- Re: Bearings for head stock Posted by: "Richard McCune" richmccunex~xxsbcglobal.net Date: Thu Jul 6, 2006 6:08 pm (PDT) I have used lathes with both types of spindle bearings. I personally think that good babbit bearings are much smoother than the Timken bearings. My lathe is a babbit model and it cuts very well, nice smooth finish. If the babbit is really worn you can shim it with some shim stock. They make shim stock down to .001" thick. ------- Re: Bearings for head stock Posted by: "speedphoto300" speedphoto300x~xxyahoo.com Date: Thu Jul 6, 2006 6:20 pm (PDT) Someone asked me once "I bought this XXX lathe, how accurate is it?". My reponse was "depends, how accurate are you?. Mine has a roller bearing headstock, weeps oil just fine. Solid bearing machines are very smooth, the well regarded South Bend 9 and 10 inch machines for example. Joe ------- Re: Bearings for head stock Posted by: "Dave Mucha" dave_muchax~xxyahoo.com Date: Thu Jul 6, 2006 9:45 pm (PDT) > you figure out that the whole damn lathe is designed to not just weep > a little oil here and there, but to sling it into every corner of > your shop. It is probably the most efficent method of keeping all your tools well oiled. I keep drip pans on mine and use that waste oil with a rag to wipe down the other tools. > After you fill three or four 2lb coffee cans with chips coffee cans ? On the last table, I had a hole with a 30 gallon trash can underneath; darn thing kept getting filled up with that really loose swarf. Now, I keep a baking tray under to catch the big stuff, and jamb the loose stuff into plastic trashbags. Well, usually into a 5 gallon bucket and mash it down with a 2x4, then put that into the plastic. The great thing about the baking tray is that it is easy to pull out when good bits fall into it. As far as the bearings go, I put an indicator on the headstock, with the needle on the chuck. If you can lift up any more than a couple thou, you have a need for fixing something. Dave ------- Re: Bearings for head stock Posted by: "Dave Mucha" dave_muchax~xxyahoo.com Date: Thu Jul 6, 2006 9:48 pm (PDT) I think the old oil film gets replaced with new oil, and that fills in the gaps better and tightens things up. On my SB, babbit bearings, the manual says that at low speeds to use a heavier oil, at high speeds a lighter oil. Seems the heat expands and the lighter oil does not get in the way as easily. I use all synthetic oil now. It seems to offer the best protection to the metal bits everywhere. Dave ------- Re: Bearings for head stock Posted by: "mertbaker" MertBakerx~xxprodigy.net Date: Thu Jul 6, 2006 11:30 pm (PDT) > Re; " For some reason, old lathes tend to get more and > more accurate the more chips you make with them." Are you sure it's old lathes & not old machinists? Mert MertBakerx~xxverizon.net ------- Re: how to remove the spindle gear on the qc42 [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: "Glenn N" sleykinx~xxcharter.net Date: Tue Jul 18, 2006 10:03 pm (PDT) Original Message From: sherwood shute Sent: Tuesday, July 18, 2006 > i was just going to remove the big wide gear on the spindle and flip it over and reinstall it since only one side of the gear looked bad now i see that one of the teeth is broken all the way across so i fiugure it must be replaced-how to remove it?thinking about cutting it thin at the keyway with the dremel then whack it with a cold chisel-anyone got a replacement gear handy?-sherwood < No choppy choppy whack whack on lathe spindles prese? http://www.atlas-press.com/tb_12bg.htm#REMOVING%20HEADSTOCK%20SPINDLE REMOVING HEADSTOCK SPINDLE (Necessary for replacing spindle belt or bearings) (Refer to Figure 1) 1. Disengage back gears. 2. Loosen set screw in collar B and remove collar by turning anti- clockwise. Beneath set screw is a small thread protector. Do not lose it when collar is removed. 3. Loosen set screws in collar L, and large spindle gear D. 4. Slide spindle gear M from spindle. If gear sticks, tap lightly with a piece of wood and a hammer. 5. Remove key N from spindle with a pair of pliers. Slide flanged collar O off spindle. 6. Wedge two pieces of wood between head and large spindle gear D on both sides of spindle. 7. Place a piece of wood against left end of spindle and drive it in direction indicated by arrow until key P emerges from large spindle gear D. 8. Remove the wood wedges and remove key P with pair of pliers. 9. Drive spindle entirely out of headstock in direction of arrow. BE SURE TO CATCH THE SPINDLE AS IT IS RELEASED FROM THE HEADSTOCK. It is not necessary to remove spindle entirely if replacing belt only on horizontal countershaft lathes. Much more happy for lathe to do right ;) Glenn ------- Re: how to remove the spindle gear on the qc42 Posted by: "Glenn N" sleykinx~xxcharter.net Date: Wed Jul 19, 2006 5:15 pm (PDT) > thanks-so when i put the gear back on i should put a dial indicator > on the chuck and check freeplay???sherwood NO. SPINDLE ADJUSTMENTS 1. Slide collar L against shoulder of spindle and lock in place. Move pulley-gear assembly against collar and slide large spindle gear D against pulley and tighten set screw in gear. There should be a slight amount of clearance between the pulley and the large spindle gear to permit pulley to turn freely. 2. Tighten collar B until all lateral (end) and radial (side) play has been removed from spindle. Check by tapping spindle back and forth with the hand. Do not tighten too tightly -- spindle should rotate freely. 3. Pre-load spindle bearings by continuing to tighten the threaded collar B approximately 1/16" turn (equivalent to two spindle gear teeth). There should be a slight drag felt as the spindle is rotated by hand. This is important because as spindle and bearings warm up, the spindle expands laterally approximately .002". Tighten set screw in collar B. ------- Timken bearing seat removal on 4800 [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: "Lucas Thompson" Lucas.Thompsonx~xxwatchguard.com Date: Tue Jul 25, 2006 10:37 am (PDT) Hello group. I'm working on my Atlas 4800 / Clausing 100 mk3a and decided to replace the spindle bearings. I couldn't get a clean cut on it at all where I could get very nice cuts on my little Atlas 10 using the exact same tools. And the runout measurement was really wobbly like some of the rollers had flat spots. And it was noisy while running. I've got the spindle out now, but can't figure out the procedure to remove the timken bearing seats (working on the one nearest to the chuck first). There doesn't seem to be a place to get behind it to grab. I've thought about three ways to do it: 1- MIG weld threaded rods to opposing sides of the bearing face to use as a puller to get it out. I could do this without damaging anything else. 2- Drill two small opposing holes in the back side of the headstock casting where the bearing seat is and tap it out with a drift punch. Headstock is left with holes. This doesn't seem to be a good option. 3- Use a small wedge in behind the seat and lever against the headstock casting to drive the wedge in and the seat out. This may be possible, but I'm worried about damaging the headstock casting so that the replacement bearing seat won't sit in it correctly. It's fairly thin around that area. Anyone done this already? Thanks in advance. ------- Re: Timken bearing seat removal on 4800 Posted by: "Brad Heiter" heiterx~xxintnet.net Date: Tue Jul 25, 2006 11:18 am (PDT) I've had good luck by just welding a bead all the way around the inner surface of the bearing race. When it cools down it just slides out. Brad ------- Re: Timken bearing seat removal on 4800 Posted by: "speedphoto300" speedphoto300x~xxyahoo.com Date: Tue Jul 25, 2006 12:20 pm (PDT) Since you have the spindle out, have you checked the bearings to make sure they are really bad? I've seen incorrect preload cause problems far more often than bad bearings. Joe ------ Timken bearing seat removal on 4800 Posted by: "Bob Scogin" bscoginx~xxbellsouth.net Date: Tue Jul 25, 2006 1:57 pm (PDT) I've had very good luck removing bearing cups from various types of machinery, wheel hubs, etc by just welding a bead around the inside of the race. This will shrink it, and when it cools it can be pulled out by hand. Bob ------- Re: Timken bearing seat removal on 4800 Posted by: "Lucas Thompson" Lucas.Thompsonx~xxwatchguard.com Date: Tue Jul 25, 2006 2:40 pm (PDT) They have shiny spots on the rollers like I've seen on failing automotive ones. I'm not sure exactly how else to check them? I played around with the preload a little but I think it was adjusted OK to begin with. I adjusted it the same way on the 4800 and the TH48. The TH48 came out a lot better. The lathe seems to have been dropped or otherwise crashed more than once before judging from some of the previously fixed damage -- the block that holds the headstock to the bed was in two pieces when I got it! Sounds like welding around the race is the way to do it, thanks for all the advice. ------ Re: Timken bearing seat removal on 4800 Posted by: "Glenn N" sleykinx~xxcharter.net Date: Thu Jul 27, 2006 3:33 pm (PDT) >>Since you have the spindle out, have you checked the bearings to make >>sure they are really bad? I've seen incorrect preload cause problems >>far more often than bad bearings. Joe JAMES BLACKETT wrote: >I have had a 10" Atlas for some time now, originally I stripped it down >and reassembled and all is fine, however I see a note on preloading the >timken bearings. I have just used my mechanical "feel" for pre load. >Is there a laid down proceedure and where could I find it? Obviously it >would be better to have the correct preload. I loaded the bearings until >I had a nice feel to the rotation and then had to do a bit more to get it >to cut nicely. Too much would damage the bearings and maybe more, so any >info would be useful, thanks Jamesb (UK) You might like this one. Your specific question is covered along with many others. http://www.atlas-press.com/servicebulletins.htm ------- Re: Timken bearing seat removal on 4800 Posted by: "Lucas Thompson" Lucas.Thompsonx~xxwatchguard.com Date: Thu Jul 27, 2006 4:18 pm (PDT) Got the rest of the bearings out fine by welding bolts on opposite sides and tapping from the back. I didn't want to get in there with the OA torch without preheating the cast iron parts and the MIG didn't put out enough heat, so I didn't really try the shrinking trick. Even found an online supplier, bearings.com and the replacements were only about 35 bucks for all 4 parts. Are there any tricks to seating the new ones properly? Just tap them in and go? ------- Re: Timken bearing seat removal on 4800 Posted by: "LouD31M066x~xxaol.com" Date: Thu Jul 27, 2006 4:49 pm (PDT) Clean out all crud and varnish and lightly oil so new bearings will go in with minimum of fuss. Bearing race fit tight so they will not turn. Install bearing races using a threaded rod, washers and nuts. Bearing cones can be installed on spindle using similar non impact method. Bearings do not like dirt, fingerprints, moisture and hammers. They like clean oil, proper preload and moderate temperature and humidity range. Bearings are the most precise and easily damaged parts of any machine, yet, with proper care and wise use they can give more years of service than several owners can ask for. Louis ------ Re: Making a spindle from 1144 (vs. 4130/4140) [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: "Rob Peterson" harpyx~xxavenuecable.com Date: Wed Sep 20, 2006 2:32 pm (PDT) "Wally Blackburn" wrote: >I am thinking of making a spindle for my Atlas mill and I'm going to >try 1144 stressproof. I may/may not try case-hardening key areas. >Easier to machine, but also less warping issues than 4130. Any thoughts? Wally, I made a "temporary" spindle for my Atlas lathe from 4130 and had no problems with warping. I still have to make a permanent spindle to replace the "temporary" one and in preparation for that I replaced the bushings in the headstock last week with new ones. I pulled the spindle completely as I wanted to see what wear (if any) had occurred. I was surprised to see that the unhardened 4130 hadn't worn at all. Yeah, it was shiney in the bushing areas (as compared to the satin polish elsewhere) but no measurable wear. The lathe has about 100 hrs on it since the spindle was put in with the old bushings. I still have to make the permanent one as the temporary one is a tad undersize and the woodruff key slots are a little sloppy. The temp spindle is still solid (no through-hole) but I will bore the new one once it's in the headstock. Upshot is that I do not think you need to harden the spindle in order to get good wearlife. The key to long life is clean oil. I know nothing about 1144 so can't comment there. RP ------- Drill Rod that may be easily machined... [sherline] Posted by: "Gregg Swanson" Gregg.Swansonx~xxmicrosoft.com Date: Tue Feb 13, 2007 11:54 am ((PST)) Hello, I am mulling over building a Caustic tester, this is a device that is similar to a Foucault tester. Link - http://www.atm-workshop.com/tl-caustic.html One of the key components will be a carriage that slides on two rods. Drill Rod is used because I believe that is smooth. So my question is what grade of Drill Rod do I want to purchase - I have to drill a couple of holes into the Rod and may decided to put a flat on each end. The reference "model" that I am basing my design on uses 1/2 inch rod; the rod will probably be less than 18 inches. I will be using my Sherline Mill to drill the holes and machine the flats if required. Do I want to use Grade A2 drill rod? Thanks, Gregg ------- Re: Drill Rod that may be easily machined... Posted by: "Jerry G" chieftoolmakerx~xxearthlink.net shipmodelmaker1931 Date: Tue Feb 13, 2007 12:13 pm ((PST)) Hi Gregg: If I had to build that, I would not use drill rod at all. My recommendation is to use "Thompson Ball Bushings" for the bearings and "60 Case" for the guide rods. Since the "60 Case" are case hardened rods, you can grind the flats you need, and after you break through the M & M shell, do the drilling. Excellent way to achieve linear motion. I have built many a machine using those bearings, etc. You can make your own housings or buy them. Later, Jerry G (Glickstein) ------- Re: New member, and a bearing question [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: "LouD31M066x~xxaol.com" Date: Wed Feb 6, 2008 1:26 pm ((PST)) Couple things to bear in mind: 1) Be sure the bearings are at fault before removing... a) remove wick from spindle oilers and flush with WD40 or similar solvent to remove any varnish and crud, then reoil with 20 wt nondetergent; b) clean wick material with solvent, reinstall and oil (replace with new wick material if it can not be cleaned); c) read the instruction about setting preload then confirm that yours are properly adjusted. Bearings that are rough or "catch" or are noisy probably need replacement so read and follow the instructions for removal. If one bearing is worn out, likely the other is as well, however, do not assume check...it is possible something got into one bearing and ruined it...when removing a bearing keep in mind it is just possible it is good enough to reuse... read up on do's and don'ts of bearing removal/installation. After you have removed the bearings and races wash them with clean solvent or WD40 and inspect carefully. Spinning dry with compressed air will ruin the bearing as well as pose a hazard if the bearing breaks up and scatters. It is a false economy to mix old and new parts in the same bearing assembly. You will have to make some simple tooling in order to properly remove and replace spindle bearings...specifically washers (large diameter) turned to a just-right size to enable you to use a nut and a threaded rod to apply force to remove and install races in headstock casting. Can be done easily on a lathe and with some work using drill and file...might be best to turn to close to size before shutting down lathe for repair. Louis -------