This is just one of some 80 files about machining and metalworking and useful workshop subjects that can be read at: http://www.janellestudio.com/metal/index.html ------------------------------------------------------------------ Bearings, bushings, and also spindles are very much the subject of this file. Repairing, replacing, and even making these items is discussed at length. If you got to this file directly from my HOME PAGE, return there by using your browser's back button. BUT if you came to this file as the result of a web search engine, see many additional files on my home page Machining and Metalworking at Home http://www.janellestudio.com/metal/index.html SAFETY WARNING BEWARE: DO NOT ASSUME that any subject matter or procedure or process is safe or correct or appropriate just because it was mentioned in a news/user group or was included in these files or on this site or on any other web site or was published in a magazine or book or video. Working with metals and machinery and chemicals and electrical equipment is inherently dangerous. Wear safety devices and clothing as appropriate. Remove watches, rings, and jewellery -- and secure or remove loose clothing -- before operating any machine. Read, understand and follow the latest operating procedures and safety instructions provided by the manufacturer of your machine or tool or product. If you do not have those most recent official instructions, acquire a copy through the manufacturer before operating or using their product. Where the company no longer exists, use the appropriate news or user group to locate an official copy. Be careful -- original instructions may not meet current safety standards. Updated safety information and operating instructions may also be available through a local club, a local professional in the trade, a local business, or an appropriate government agency. In every case, use your common sense before beginning or taking the next step; and do not proceed if you have any questions or doubts about any procedure, or the safety of any procedure. Follow all laws and codes, and employ certified or licenced professionals as required by those laws or codes. Hazardous tasks beyond your competence or expertise should also be contracted to professionals. Let's be really careful out there. (c) Copyright 2003 - 2016 Machining and Metalworking at Home The form of the collected work in this text file (including editing, additions, and notes) is copyrighted and this file is not to be reproduced by any means, including electronic, without written permission except for strictly personal use. =========================================================================== Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2001 09:33:01 -0800 From: Frank Evan Perdicaro Subject: Followup on back gear bushings > > One problem area is the bushings in the back gear sleeve, part > > 10-248. Atlas lists the "SLEEVE with bushings" and I can see why. > > There appears to be no good way to remove and replace the bushings > > in this part. My bushings are clearly quite worn (like every other > > part of the lathe) and need replacement. > > Has anybody replaced these? If so, how? > I use a Pilot Bearing Puller for these tasks. This puller is used > to remove the bearing in a flywheel in manual auto transmissions. front > end of the transmission shaft fits into these bearings. > It resembles a 3 jaw pulley remover, but with the jaws arranged to > open from the inside of the bearing and locking onto the blind end One member suggested tapping the bushings and pulling them out with a bolt. I had not thought of that. So I tried last night and it worked well. At least to the part where I accidentally crushed the replacement bushing. (Got a set of new ones this morning.) I do have one important optimization for this proceedure. Use the tap from a helicoil kit! Recall that a helicoil is a slightly oversized bushing for threaded fasteners. As such, the tap used to prep the work is slightly oversized with respect to standard fasteners. As a result, a helicoil tap will always be the correct size to remove a bushing of the same nominal size. As it happens I have a 1/2" fine helicoil kit. I ran the tap into the bushing then pounded the tap+bushing out from the other side with a drift and nylon hammer. ------- From: michaelhenryx~xxm... Date: Sat Aug 18, 2001 12:32 am Subject: Babbitt Booklet, was Countershaft Bearings In atlas_craftsman Jeff Swann wrote: > > The spindle shaft bearings (#9-109) on my Atlas > > 10-F lathe are worn out. Has anyone been successful in > > buying new replacements and where did you get them > > from? Part number? TIA JA Swann Jon Elson wrote: > Is this the Timken bearing version or the babbit bearing? > The Timken bearings (there are 2 sizes, and they come as > an inner race with captive roller cage and an outer race, > so you need to order 4 different parts) are available from > any bearing distributor. Look in the yellow pages under > Bearings and call the closest one. They can get them for > you in about one day, and the full set costs about $60. > > If these are babbit bearings, you have a real problem. > The only thing I know to do is repour them, an almost > lost art. Supposedly one of the woodworking groups has > a great article on the process in their archive. > The only other possibility is if some car engine uses a > split bearing insert of the right size, you could bore out > the old bearing 'cartridge' to accomodate the insert. > (That might actually be pretty neat, to be able to pop in a new set > of bearings in 15 minutes, once the cartridge has been modified. The Metal Web News has a PDF of an old booklet on Babbitt beraings in the Education section - the url is: http://www.metalwebnews.com/howto/babbitt/babbitt.html I'm the guy that scanned it in (Bill Gray converted it to PDF format) but I've never tried pouring Babbitt & can't offer any assistance other than a pointer to the file. ------- Date: Wed, 22 May 2002 14:36:18 -0000 From: "tjwal" Subject: Re: miniature bearing suppliers In atlas_craftsman, "markzemanek" wrote: > I've finished refurbishing and am in the process of setting up my > Craftsman 618, and the first item I'd like to make are some Crayford > type telescope focuser's. Might anybody know of a good supplier for > miniature ball bearings (in the range of 1/4" to 1/2" o.d.)? I've > been searching the net, but haven't been able to locate any yet... > Thanks in advance, Mark >> p.s.- I've also already tried Small Parts Inc... Mark: I had my wood router out last night and I noticed the guide bearing on the bit I was using. It is roughly 3/8" OD, Maybe 1/8" - 3/16" ID. They are available at hardware stores, Home Depot etc. John ------- Date: Thu, 23 May 2002 00:42:27 -0700 From: "GSNEFF" Subject: Re: miniature bearing suppliers Check out old hard drives for tiny bearings. They also have some really outrageous magnets in them. The bearings are really high quality and there are lots of scrap Hard drives around. Glenn Neff Medford, OR http://www.superford.org/?vID=1089 ------- Date: Thu, 23 May 2002 11:19:58 -0700 From: Jay & Anne Greer Subject: Re: Re: miniature bearing suppliers Over the years, I have found that bearings are the easiest of all parts to obtain in most any configuration or size needed. The last company I dealt with was King Bearing in Orange County California. I think that if you were to go on line and research "Bearings" you would come up with hundreds of suppliers. Best Regards, Jay Greer ------- Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2002 00:17:50 -0400 From: Stan Stocker Subject: Re: Babbit Bearings ??? Hi Charley; The material is indeed babbit metal. You set up the shaft in the shell, use babbitrite (sp?), plumbers rope, or oakum to form dams at either end, and heat up the shell to several hundred degrees, usually with a rosebud tip on an OA torch. The babbit is melted in a plumbers pot or ladle and poured through an opening at the top of one of the dams until it appears at the top of the other dam, where you left an air hole. Usually the shell has ears, prongs, depressions, something to key and lock the babbit in place. The completed bearing is then scraped and oil grooves added using small scraping type tools with the tips shaped to half circles or triangles as needed. The shaft is wrapped with a thin oiled paper or smoked with a pure acetylene flame before setting up for the pour, so the babbit doesn't stick to it. With the exception of setting up the shaft, the process is quite a bit like old school lead joining of cast iron plumbing lines. There are bushings with a babbit layer applied to the interior that can be pressed in, but straight babbit is very similar to lead free solder in hardness, I can't say I've ever seen or heard of a pure babbit bearing being cast as a separate part and then inserted. Some older gas engines have a babbit layer on the con rods, although this has been pretty much replaced with plated bearing liner materials. Split babbit bearings are still done in one pour, with shims typically added between the shell halves. You end up with some extra babbit, so as it wears you can pull a shim pair and rescrape to a running fit. Fine Woodworking did an article on pouring babbit bearings years ago, if you need the info you can probably find an index on the web, or drop me a line and I'll try to find the reprint book or issue number for the article. Heck, a google search might just turn up a page dedicated to babbit bearing work. Here's one link that shows rebabbiting the bearings on a trip hammer: http://www.metalwebnews.com/howto/babbet/babbet.html Hope this is of some help, Stan ------- Date: Sun, 17 Nov 2002 22:26:42 -0600 From: "Jerry Foulds" Subject: 12" Atlas/Craftsman with Timkens Something has always troubled me about my 101.07403. The oil cup is directly above the bearing outer race. Any oil that passes from the cup runs around the outside of the race to the bottom of the bearing without ever touching the rollers or inter race surfaces. The only way oil can get to the critical areas is to pool in the bottom of the bearing cavity. This takes a considerable amount of oil, and a good portion of it seeps out around the bearing covers, down the headstock sides and, eventually, onto the floor. What a strange design! A small strategically placed hole in the cover allows oil to be administered directly on the rollers and races in a reasonable quantity. Anyone else have any thoughts as to why Atlas chose to put the oiler in this location? J Foulds ------- Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2002 10:00:13 -0600 From: Jon Elson Subject: Re: 12" Atlas/Craftsman with Timkens There is supposed to be a wick in the bottom of the oil cup that delivers the oil to a good spot for it to be picked up on the rollers. I think it just dangles against the side of the outer race. Jon ------- Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2002 14:21:41 -0500 From: Jeff A Hammer Subject: Re: 12" Atlas/Craftsman with Timkens Jon, did Atlas discontinue this wick in the later models? There's no reference, picture, part #, or otherwise, to any wicks in the parts list/manual for my late model Atlas 12" or in the "Manual Of Lathe Operations...". Do you have any more information or was the wick just a smart addition that I should make to my lathe and if so, what's the material I should use that will allow the oil to flow properly and where do I find this material? Jeff ------- Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2002 23:29:37 -0000 From: "seb fontana" Subject: Re: 12" Atlas/Craftsman with Timkens Don't think a wick is that important; doesn't take that much oil to lube bearings. I have a early 40's 10" that I have been using [alot] for 25 years, has no wicks and hasn't worn out yet. Have two others as new as 55, they have no wicks and there is no evidence of lack of oil. Know this because I replaced the drive belts in all three at one time or another and there was no lack of lube. Yes, I took them apart to change belt..didn't think link belt would work.!! Don't worry, a few drops of oil every once in a while is sufficient..it still gets there somehow. Seb ------- Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2002 18:15:31 -0600 From: "Paul Siegert" Subject: RE: Re: 12" Atlas/Craftsman with Timkens Not sure this is of any help, but I'm quoting a letter, below, from Atlas Press dated March 21, 1942 with respect to a letter my uncle sent them regarding the perceived lack of oil going to the bearings on the Craftsman 101.07403 that I now have. Seems he had some concern regarding bearing lubrication when he received his new lathe two weeks before the date of this letter. "The bearings used on this lathe are not the usual bronze bearings but a special oil absorbing material called "Oilite". The reason that no oil holes are needed is that the material is coarse and will absorb about 40% of its own volume in oil. This means that the bearing itself will act as a fiiler and prevent dirt or other foreign particles from reaching the highly polished bearing surfaces and injuring them." It was signed by Paul S. Allen, Technical Service. Regards, Paul Siegert ------- Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2002 22:37:02 -0600 From: Jon Elson Subject: Re: 12" Atlas/Craftsman with Timkens I don't know where you can get this material, now. But, I've used cotton athletic shoe laces, and some other people have mentioned knitting yarn. I don't think it is real critical at all. Just something to slow down the rate at which the oil runs out of the cup. Jon ------- Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2002 23:13:44 -0600 From: Jon Elson Subject: Re: Re: 12" Atlas/Craftsman with Timkens The Babbit bearing machines did NOT have wicks, and didn't need them. The tightness of the bearing kept the oil in, until the bearing was shot. Then, it ran out fast, and you had to replace it fast, or it would seize up! With no wick in the Timken bearing setup, you're pouring oil through a 1/8" hole, and the cup will empty in 15 seconds. If the bearing dust covers are in good shape, that's fine. But, if they are chewed up, as they get after pulling the spindle a few times, the oil doesn't stay at the bottom of the bearing very long. The Timken roller cage tends to collect oil in the crevices, and does keep some around for a while. Jon ------- Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2002 23:26:26 -0600 From: Jon Elson Subject: Re: Re: 12" Atlas/Craftsman with Timkens >"The bearings used on this lathe are not the usual bronze bearings >but a special oil absorbing material called "Oilite". This applies to the 6" Atlas and Atlas/Craftsman lathes, only, as far as I know. The 10 and 12" definitely started out with Babbit, not Oilite, for the spindle. Jon ------- Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 06:59:36 -0000 From: "Robert Weersing" Subject: Re: 12" Atlas/Craftsman with Timkens I bought a package of felt at a fabric store that came with a dozen 12"X12" sheets for about $5. I cut out several small circles just big enough for each oil cup and it seems to work well. I have two Atlas lathes with original bearings dated 1939 and 1940 that are still in good shape so this system works. Hope that helps. Bob ------- Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 11:10:17 EST From: catboat15x~xxaol.com Subject: Re: Digest Number 1189 I don't know what years or models the wicks were there, but my 12 X 36 has the Timken decal on the head stock casting and has wicks in the oil cups on the head stock as well as the cups on the countershaft have wicks. Looks to be some kind of fibers, almost like old rope that has been unraveled, could be a loose felt kind of hard to tell as the wick is stained brownish from many years of oil soaking. I have never pulled one out figuring best to leave well enough alone. John Meacham California High Desert 12 inch Atlas, Minimill, rusty file ------- Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 13:09:04 EST From: LouD31M066x~xxaol.com Subject: Re: Oilite Oilite is a powdered metal pressing. Developed by Chrysler in 1930's. I worked in an industrial supply house that had a piece of oilite bearing with the ends plugged rigged up to a squeeze bulb so that when you squeezed bulb it pressurized inside of bearing and a film of oil appeared on outside of bearing, relax pressure and oil film disappeared. Really convincing demonstration as to oil content of porous but solid appearing metal. Louis ------- Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2002 21:33:09 -0000 From: "elperkins2003" Subject: Re: Babbitt to Timken In atlas_craftsman, "timharvey99"wrote: > > I'm new here, so forgive me if this has been covered before (I tried > the "search" utility, but it seems pretty ineffective). In 1987, I > bought an Atlas 10", H54 Serial 064410, that was said to have made > its way to Seattle from Whitehorse, Yukon Territory. > It has babbitt bearings. Does anyone know if it is reasonable to > consider trying to convert this puppy to accept tapered roller > bearings, like the real ones use? Is it easy, or am I dreaming? > Thanks for any advise you can throw my way, TimHarvey99 Why do you want to replace them? There is nothing inherently wrong with plain bearings in the headstock of a lathe, if in good condition. In fact, they can be better than Timken bearings in terms of smoothness and chatter free operation. The answer to your question though is that the conversion (using the original headstock) is probably not practical. When lathe manufacturers made these conversions, they normally redesigned the headstock casting to accommodate the much larger space required by the Timken bearings. For example, the South Bend standard 9"/10/index.html" lathes when redesigned using Timken bearings essentially became the Heavy 10. Look at pictures of the old plain bearing 6" Craftsman lathes Sears sold against the Timkin bearing versions sold directly by Atlas. You will see the headstock castings have been redesigned to accommodate the larger bearings. The only drawback to plain bearings is that they cannot be run at high speeds for extended periods of time due to lubrication problems. If you really want Timken bearings in your lathe you would be best to search for a used replacement headstock that was originally manufactured with Timken bearings. They come up on ebay from time to time. Perk in Cincinnati 6" Atlas/Craftsman 9" South Bend ------- Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2002 22:54:43 -0000 From: "timharvey99" Subject: Re: Plain bearings Thanks for that input, Perk and others. I agree, plain bearings are just fine, but only when they are in GOOD condition. They do wear out, and when that happens, you are looking at pouring new ones (I tried that on my '49 Chev, and I can attest that it requires some effort to get it right), or you think about how easy it is to take up play in a taper setup. Since I have to tear the thing down in any case, I was thinking maybe that's the time to switch, which is why I posed the question. The consensus so far seems to be ebay. Has anybody out there tried doing the conversion? Timharvey99 ------- Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2002 19:43:49 -0500 From: Ronald Thibault Subject: Re: Babbitt to Timken Tim: the only practical way is to replace the headstock, there is not enough metal to bore for Timkins. Now the good news, the swap is simple, just put the new headstock on, it is automatically aligned by the light press fit with the bed ways. I replaced the headstock on my first lathe, and was quite happy with the change. I got the entire headstock for $250, with spindle, bearings, back gears, etc. I then sold the back gears back to the used tool place I got the headstock from for $100. Now-a-days, you can probably get a better deal on E-bay. Ron Thibault Warrenville, SC USA http://home.bellsouth.net/p/PWP-ronthibault ------- Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 15:40:01 -0000 From: "n5kzw" Subject: Re: Babbitt to Timken Tim, you've gotten a lot of good advice as to why it can't be done easily. I have an alternate proposal - make an auxilliary headstock. The new spindle would have a female thread on one end to mate with your existing spindle, and the other end could be machined to match your existing spindle. Use two steel plates for the right (headstock) and left (tailstock) sides of your new headstock. Machine the bottoms of the plates to provide a step that is a light press fit between the ways, and use a spot drill centered in a 4-jaw chuck to mark the center of the spindle bore on the plates. Then take the plates to the mill and bore for your bearings. You can either make the plates thick enough to support the bearngs, or build up the plate in the area of the bearings. I suppose you could bore the end plates to accept a shrink-fit cylinder and then bore the cylinder to accept the bearings. The existing headstock will absorb the axial thrust, so you really don't need tapered bearings with preload, etc. Of course, you would have to rigidly attach a front, back, and top to the headstock (pinned and screwed). The width of the auxiliary headstock would determine how much radial load it would pass to the existing headstock. If you sized the bearings on the female end of the spindle to absorb the female end of the new spindle into the body of the auxilliary headstock, then your net loss in lathe capacity would only be the width of the new headstock. You've got me thinking now. I might try this on my 6" Craftsman 101. Good luck, Ed Bailen ------- Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 12:11:50 -0500 From: "mertbaker" Subject: Re: Re: Babbitt to Timken The best solution to the beat-up babbit bearing problem is to re-babbit. Very easily done, & it will last another 40 years. Your spindle will run as smoothly, & with less runout. Mert ------- Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 06:34:46 -0600 From: "Paul Siegert" Subject: RE: Re: 12" Atlas/Craftsman with Timkens Jon: The 101.07403 Craftsman is the Atlas 12x24, 30, or 36" depending on the sub catalog number used when originally ordered. Sears seems to have called for a few changes, i.e., the transmission system for the lead screw, but other than that, they appear to be the same. The manual that shipped with the Craftsman back in 1942 was the one for the standard Atlas lathe and not the one for the lathe they actually shipped that had the minor modifications requested by Sears. Randy Pedersen pointed out on the thread earlier that Timken bearings are of steel and the letter from Atlas must have been referring to "bushings on the counter shaft". I believe he is right. The letter I have from Atlas is dated 1942 and was referring to the specific 101.07403 model I have with Timken bearings. I haven't seen the wicks that are being referred to (I'll need to take a closer look when I dismantle a bit further), however I notice that the oil cups have what looks like "hub grease" in them. I talked to my 94 year old Uncle yesterday (who gave me the lathe a couple of weeks ago and who was the original owner) about this and he said this was the recommendation given to him by Atlas in the 1940's. Apparently as the bearings heat up while running it allows the grease to flow slowly onto the bearings. Anyone have any thoughts on this? I looked at a copy of the 1937 Atlas lubrication manual and it calls out Number 20 oil or equivalent for the head stock oil cups, as does the 1981 printing of the manual. Is it possible they never corrected the documentation when they made the transition from babbit to Timken bearings? Paul ------- Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 12:21:42 -0600 From: Jon Elson Subject: Re: Re: 12" Atlas/Craftsman with Timkens I HAD a 1944 !)" Atlas with the original book, and it clearly called for SAE #10 oil for both Timken and Babbit bearings. I used #30 SAE oil in the Babbit bearings because they were so badly worn, and the #30 took longer to run out. I switched to #10 when I got the Timken bearing headstock. Grease will run hot at higher speed, and the heating of the spindle will affect accuracy (at least if you are turning something and require consistent axial dimensions). Remember that the Atlas will go to 2072 RPM at its highest speed. I shudder to think how hot the Timkens will get at that speed with grease in them. But, you won't be able to touch the headstock in that area, I'm sure. I am quite sure that Atlas never specified such a thing in their printed documents, especially in the lube chart. I have seen the old wicks get gummed up with varius additives in the oils, and they need to be changed if they don't allow the oil to flow. >I looked at a copy of the 1937 Atlas lubrication manual and it >calls out Number 20 oil or equivalent for the head stock oil >cups, as does the 1981 printing of the manual. Is it possible they >never corrected the documentation when they made the transition >from babbit to Timken bearings? No, they made the transition, but there was apparently a difference of opinion on what was the best oil viscosity for the Timken bearings. The problem is to support cutting loads from 48 - 2072 RPM, with ONLY one oil grade! Not easy. If you never use speeds above 1000 RPM, the #20, or even #30 is fine. If you consistantly turn small shafts at 2072 RPM for hours on end, then you should be using #10, as even the #20 allows the bearings to heat up. The problem here is it takes hours for the spindle and headstock to warm up to equilibrium under these conditions, and the spindle is moving (I don't mean rotating, here, but its expanding and drifting in 3 dimensions) all the time this temperature rise is developing. If you never do precision work, you probably will never know this. But, if you need to turn pistons and cylinder bores, or make fine bearing fits, etc. you will eventually run into this. Jon ------- Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 15:00:00 -0600 From: "Paul Siegert" Subject: RE: Re: 12" Atlas/Craftsman with Timkens Jon, I have the original book that came with the 1942 version with Timken bearings, and I agree the lube chart calls it like you say in your email. However, my uncle said one of the techs at Atlas told him to use grease. Techs have been known to be wrong. However, that brings up another question that maybe you or someone else can help me on. I can't see where this "wick" is or would be, based on the oil cup (part 9-204) is in the casting right over the bearing and the left and right sides of the bearing are tightly enclosed inside the casting for the bearing with a dust cover on the right (part 10a-3) and the collar (Part 10-a-5) on the left. What am I missing or not understanding here with regard to were the wick is or how you see it or locate it? ------- Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 23:23:26 -0600 From: Jon Elson Subject: Re: Re: 12" Atlas/Craftsman with Timkens Well, I think you just have a small tail of the wick dangle down against the side of the outer race. You likely have to pull the whole cup out of the casting to insert the wick. You obviously don't want the wick to get into the bearing rollers, that could make a mess. Even if you don't have the wick hanging down out of the cup, it will absorb the oil and let it drip out slowly, rather than flooding the bearing with a cap full and then having no more for the rest of the day. For the grease, I can't imagine running the bearings hot enough to liquify grease up in the exposed oil cups. If my bearings ever ran that hot, I'd shut the machine down REAL fast and find out why. My bearings run slightly warm when run at high speed for an hour, and stone cold at all other times. Jon ------- Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 07:02:46 -0000 From: "Robert Weersing" Subject: Re: 12" Atlas/Craftsman with Timkens Hello Paul The old atlas books say to use 10 weight machine oil in the spindle, the newer Atlas books say to use 20 weight machine oil in the spindle. The countershaft bearings use any good bearing grease or cup grease. The bearings in my Atlas lathes are dated 1939 and 1940 and are still in good shape so the machine oil works well. Lots of luck Bob ------- Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 15:32:30 -0500 From: Chabannes Rene N Contr ASC/YCD Subject: RE: Re: Babbitt to Timken I called a friend who maintains and reworks equipment. THey don't do any babbit pouring. They replace these bushing with bronze of preformed babbit and ream to size when they do it in house. Rene N. Chabannes (Titan) ASC/YC - Productions Operations C-17 SPO, WPAFB, OH 937-255-1042 (DSN 785-1042) ------- Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 18:42:43 EST From: LouD31M066x~xxaol.com Subject: Re: Timken Bearings I don't know if this applies, but, when I went to bearing place to get bearings I asked if they had a better grade and was told yes, but, I wouldn't like the price. Maybe reason for very little play is very high quality bearings. Could also be preloaded a tad tight. Louis ------- Date: Sun, 1 Dec 2002 22:23:52 EST From: LouD31M066x~xxaol.com Subject: Re: Timken bearings When you get bearings and cups out take them to your local bearing supplier and compare prices for exact same item (Timken brand and part number). Most communities of any size have an industrial bearing outlet. My community of 30 to 40,000 people has several. These places know bearings. Service and price are very competitive, You can save serious money by shopping locally. Bearing may also be in excellent condition and not need replacement. If you have a good used bearing a new bearing is a waste of money. Be careful on how you remove things so as not to damage a good reusable bearing. Follow instruction from Clausing Atlas site. When you get them out wash in clean solvent and let dry. Do not use compressed air or spin bearing this damages the bearing. Under good light look for discolored, chipped, corroded, pitted bearing rollers or races ...any sign of damage or wear is grounds to replace with a new complete bearing assembly. The time and effort it takes to remove and replace spindle bearings and the relative low cost of replacements should be considered when evaluating reusing bearings. There may be more than one grade of bearing, if so, higher grade may be vastly more expensive. Ask Price before you order! Standard grade bearing is adequate for our Atlas lathes because even standard grade bearings are very very good. Louis ------- Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2002 07:12:05 -0600 From: "Randy Pedersen" Subject: Re: Timken bearings Louis: You are right this is the best advice when removing the bearings. More Timken bearings have been ruined by the person removing them than from wear. If one looks at the way a Timken bearing is made you can see why you do not want to beat on it with a large hammer. Every blow will either create a ding in the race or a flat on the roller or both. Actually anytime one is removing a bearing or shaft with a bearing attached you should use a wooden rod between the part and the hammer so it will absorb the damage rather than the bearing. I could not even begin to count the times and hours I have spent reworking a shaft just because someone (even myself years ago) thought that a little tap with a hammer was all that was needed to get it out. I now have a full set of wooden dowels in different sizes diameters and lengths that I protect just like my other tools. Some have even been turned on my metal lathe to certain diameters and then I just write on them what job they were made for. This way they don't end up being cut up and used for another project. Randy ------- Date: Sun, 19 Jan 2003 22:39:52 -0600 From: "jerdal" Subject: X-Timken Bearings If your accuracy is "gone" are you certain you alined the bearings and spindle for high spots? There are normally marks (burnished spots) on the inner bearing races to show the high spots., i.e. the maximum eccentricity spots. These must be in line at the two ends of the spindle in order for the spindle not to "wabble". Then, the second issue is that the high spots on the bearings are normally placed opposite the high spots of spindle eccentricity, so that they cancel. The manufacturer isn't going to tell you this stuff, in case you might succeed in fixing it your self. So you will have to figure out their marks on the spindle yourself. There are some, but no telling what they are. There may be similar spots in the quill, so that you get the races set with their centers in line and perfectly square. If you don't get the errors to cancel, the spindle will rotate around a point, destroying accuracy. The lining up of the bearing high spots is pretty important so that the force on the bearings is consistent. If not alined, the wabble will be accompanied by a possible variation in torque required during one turn, and an accelerated wear on the bearings. One part of the circumference will take most of the pressure, and may wear much earlier. If you take care of the above, and apply the right pre-load, it should be just as accurate as the bearings themselves allow. Jerrold ------- Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2003 22:07:27 -0800 From: "Patrick Lee Rooney" Subject: RE: X-Timken Bearings I hired a professional to come set up the spindle this morning. Four hour drive time and two hour service time. When asked if I could stick around and watch, I was told that I could learn the procedure for an additional 1 hour of shop time. This guy was incredibly organized, and had a service truck that looked cleaner than our local fire trucks. I half expected a crusty ole buzzard with a pipe wrench and a magic wand to bang around on my machine. This guy was half my age, articulate, knowledgeable, and not a bad teacher either. First off, I'd like to say how irritating it is for a machine tool manufacturer NOT to offer support for a machine they produce. Specifica- tions and procedures are guarded like national secrets. Proprietary knowledge and parts don't lend themselves to a happy customer base. No one likes to be strong-armed!! That said, there are ways around factory authorized service centers, as long as the machine is out of warranty. The spindle, the quill, and the old bearing races all had etched index marks, or "witness marks", that I never even noticed. Others had mentioned this (thanks Jerrold and Shane!) But I under estimated the importance of this and bearing pre-load. Both are critically important. The spindle is mounted in the quill on two precision hollow ground tapered roller bearings, back to back at one end, and one sealed ball bearing at the other. The roller bearings carry the radial and thrust loads, and the ball bearing floats in the quill seat to compensate for thermal expansion of the spindle. The roller bearing races butt back to back and are close enough so that expansion/contraction is negligible. I made several mistakes in setting up the spindle. The most glaring was in the orientation of the hollow ground in the races. It seemed logical to me to match the high with the low for a real nice fit when unloaded. Unfortunately, these hollows are used to set the proper pre-load, and the races are ground with these seats loaded against a flat surface. That is why the bearings felt strange when turned by hand unloaded..like they were riding unevenly on the race. They were. The races must be aligned high to high relative to each other, with the stars aligning with the witness marks on the quill. He set the preload without the rear bearing installed by tightening the thrust nut to eliminate all end play. Using a digital scale and a flat piece of nylon friction tape wrapped around the nose of the spindle, he continued to increase the preload about 20 degrees turn of the thrust nut. The races flattened out at this point, and the spindle turned with only a few pounds force on the scale. He indicated the nose and the ass end relative to the bearing seat in the quill, and they were perfectly aligned. The machine makes VERY accurate and quiet cuts now. I learned a lot too. Knowledge is a powerful tool. Also has me looking at my old Atlas with amazement. Practically a foot between the roller bearings, a light head- stock casting, and a very lightweight spindle. Can you ever really set proper bearing preload under such conditions? Given the pains many machine manufacturers go through to ensure proper preload, it is amazing that the Atlas is as accurate as it is! Thanks Louis, Bob and Jerrold for all the help and encouragement. I was ready to scream. Patrick ------- Date: Sun, 23 Feb 2003 16:51:21 -0600 From: "Scott Peterson" Subject: Small Bearings I've just done some searches for small ball bearings and haven't hit quite the right site. Does anyone have a link to a distributor who deals in such things (3, 4, and 5mm bores) in small volumes...preferably with an online store? The sites I've run across tend to be geared towards industry, wanting one to call daytime weekdays for a quote. I'm working towards building a propulsion system for an electric model plane. This includes the motor, a gearbox, and an extended propshaft with, possibly, a variable-pitch prop...lots of little bearings! Angular contact ball would be nice and miniature tapered roller bearings fantastic. I've also applications for miniature ball rod ends in the 2-3mm bore range. Any help would be greatly appreciated! Regards, Scott ------- Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2003 00:36:47 -0000 From: "ptlarry2003 " Subject: Re: Small Bearings TRY http://www.bocabearings.com They have what you need. Larry M. ------- Date: Sun, 23 Feb 2003 20:02:09 -0500 From: "Bill Rutiser" Subject: Re: Small Bearings The Small Parts Inc. ( www.smallparts.com ) catalog lists metric bearings with bores from 1 to 20 mm. Bill Rutiser ------- Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2003 03:02:17 -0000 From: "Thomas E. Jones " Subject: Re: Small Bearings I saw the two replies you got so far. My favorite source for mini ball bearings in "Tower Hobbies" which sells miniature bearings of many sizes for model radio-controlled cars, airplanes, etc. They sell most in quantities of 2, but also packs of 10 or so. They have many makers, both flanged and non-flanged. Most are sealed, but the smallest may not be. Go to their web site at www.towerhobbies.com and search on "ball bearings" and you'll get about 300 responses, with pictures. Order night or day online, and you'll get it in just a few days. - tj. ------- Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2003 16:28:56 -0000 From: "Jeff Gauvin " Subject: Re: Small Bearings I was just going to suggest Tower! Go to www.duratrax.com to see a listing of the bearings they make, then search for the part number at the Tower site. The bearings you'll get are "cheap" made-in-China pieces, but you'd pay 4x for precision USA bearings. Jeff Gauvin ------- Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 08:43:49 -0500 From: "Dale Malone" Subject: Re: Linear bearings and Seals > Anyone have a source for linear bearings and low friction seals > to run on 3/4 inch ground polished stainless rod? Try lee controls inc. Web site: www.linearmotion.com Dale Malone ------- Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 23:41:59 -0000 From: "Jim Knighton" Subject: Re: Sherline bearings --- In sherlinex~xxyahoogroups.com, "Ron Thompson" wrote: > Does anyone know what the bearing manufacturers part number is on > Sherline headstock bearings? Ron, Funny that you should ask, I replaced the bearings in my lathe just yesterday. They are 42mm OD, 20mm ID, 12 mm thick, industry number 6004zz. I don't know what the codes mean, but the box that mine came it were marked 6004zze. The stock bearings are made in Turkey (at least mine were) and are probably the cheapest stuff Sherline could find. I got some premium Japanese bearings (Nachi) from MSC, but no doubt you have a local source for stuff like this. I don't want to sound like a bigot since good quality can come from virtually anywhere, but Turkish bearings don't spring to mind in the same breath as "high quality". At any rate, as soon as I saw where they came from I ordered a new set for my mill as well. Regards, Jim Knighton ------- Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 21:42:34 -0400 From: "JERRY G" Subject: Re: Re: Sherline bearings Jim, Ron, The code zze is for double shielded bearings, Deep Groove, Seal / shield for longer life and lower noise. Regards, Jerry G (Gickstein) ------- Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2003 07:10:20 -0700 From: "Orrin Iseminger" Subject: Re: Re: Sherline bearings There is one thing to consider when replacing bearings in a machine tool and that is: Bearings of identical dimensions come in different grades or classes, the difference being their precision. I don't know if Sherline uses run-of-the mill ordinary bearings (IIRC, the common ones are Grade 3), but my Sheldon lathe uses precision bearings. Believe me, there is a difference. Ordinary off-the-shelf bearings can have considerable run-out. When I replaced the tapered roller bearings in it the local bearing distributor salesman didn't know there were differences between identically-dimensioned bearings. I finally gave up trying to educate him, so I went directly to Timken with my problem. Believe me, the guy got a telephone call from the company, right now! It didn't do any good, because he still didn't know how to specify precision bearings on an order. I went to another shop and the man behind the counter knew exactly what I was talking about. In spite of a total cost of over $500 for two bearings and having to wait a month while they were manufactured, it was a pleasure doing business with someone who knew how to pull all the right ropes. The moral of the story is this: You might not want to use three dollar bearings in your Sherline. Orrin ------- Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2003 15:44:16 -0700 From: "Orrin Iseminger" Subject: Re: Re: Sherline bearings I might add that bearings of identical part numbers come in different grades or classes. On Timken bearings, the only difference is an etched marking on the edge of the race. Orrin ------- Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 10:30:50 -0400 From: "JERRY G" Subject: Re: Re: Sherline bearings Orrin, some people would be aghast at the cost, but they do not know what it takes to make a set of really fine precision bearings. Those bearings will be performing long after a huge amount of three dollar bearings have been discarded. Regards, Jerry G ------- Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2003 09:56:00 -0000 From: "Jim Knighton" Subject: Re: Sherline bearings Orrin, Jerry, etc. I've been thinking about your comments and their implications. The Sherline bearings I removed from the headstock were marked C3, which I presume corresponds with the Class 3 you referenced. The new bearings were also marked C3, so I presume that I am now back within "like new" spec. Indeed, the lathe now runs, sounds and performs as it did when new. Hopefully, it will continue to do so for a long time to come. Suppose, however, that I was a real fanatic about this quality and precision stuff and wanted to have a lathe that was better than new? If this was the objective would it make sense to install better or different bearings than Sherline specifies? I just got through reading an interesting thread from another discussion group pointing out that one of the major "shortcomings" of the Sherline and Taig lathes in watchmaking circles has to do with the design and quality of the headstock bearings. I'm not an expert here and I'm only quoting what I read elsewhere, but the suggestion was that "cone bearings," whatever they are, are used in high quality jeweler's lathes and that they are somehow intrisically superior to the ball bearings used in the Sherline. Are these the same as tapered roller bearings such as the Timken? Suppose that I wanted to install "really good" bearings on my lathe. What would I look for? What would I stand to gain? Is it even possible to install "really good" bearings in a Sherline, and if so where might they be obtained? Thanks, Jim Knighton ------- Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2003 09:26:58 -0700 From: "Marcus and Eva" Subject: Re: Re: Sherline bearings Hi All: There are a couple of well ingrained prejudices operating in the assertion that cone bearings are "better" than others. A lot depends on how you define "better". Cone bearings are plain bearings in that there are no rolling elements in them, and they rely on establishing and maintaining an oil film between the bearing journal (which is cone shaped - hence the name) and the bearing race (which has the matching cone shape). The value of this system is that it can be easily adjusted to obtain the desired running clearance and compensated for wear. The system takes up relatively little space and can be built to a good level of precision relatively inexpensively. The disadvantages are limitations in speed, load carrying capacity and power losses due to drag. The high drag characteristics tend to make them run hotter than rolling bearings; this requires temperature management in critical applications. These bearings are also relatively fussy to maintain...they are intolerant of contaminants, and require a fully reliable source of the correct grade of lubricant at all times. Rolling bearings of all types are associated with lower friction, which is their principal attraction. The difficulty that the introduction of these rolling elements creates is that the precision of all the components greatly affects the concentricity with which the spindle turns. The precision of manufacture with rolling bearings is a much larger determinant of the spindle performance than it is with cone bearings, in which only a few things need to be right in order to achieve excellent spindle concentricity. Rolling bearings are also load limited (but by a different mechanism than plain bearings) but generally have a much wider operating envelope with respect to speed, lubrication requirement etc etc. That's why they're so widely used. It is possible to manufacture rolling bearings of exquisite precision, but the cost of such precision is extremely high because of the large number of parts that must be manufactured to submicron tolerances, and assembled under clean room conditions. The typical cost of a headstock bearing set for a precision lathe (like the Monarch 10EE with which I am, regretfully, too intimately acquainted!) is well over $1000.00 but the reward is a set of bearings adequate to drive a spindle with 6" diameter chuck and workpieces at up to 4000 RPM, and peel off 0.200 inch per side, from a 4140 steel bar while maintaining the ability to turn to a level of roundness well below 0.0001". That's a hell of an operating envelope, and it comes at a price. Going back to the Sherline and the bearings in it...you can certainly specify and install a higher grade bearing than stock if you want, but you must realize two things if you do. First, the bearings will only do their best if they are part of an integrated system...the concentricity of the journals and the bearing seats is critical to their proper performance, and the requirement goes up very rapidly as you go up in bearing specification. Sherline headstock bearing seats are bored on a twin opposed -spindle boring machine that is a dinosaur, bought used over twenty years ago. Joe Martin recognizes this, and makes certain that the boring machine is performing at all times within the requirements of the bearings he specifies, but you cannot expect such a machine to hold the sub-tenths tolerances required to get full performance out of a high precision bearing set. Second, you cannot, for most applications likely to be encountered by most hobbyists, tell the difference between a part made on a Sherline and one made on a Monarch without some pretty sophisticated measuring gear. Your choice of spindle bearings is not likely to be the limiting factor in the quality you can achieve, until you are making parts with a fair bit of mass. (Look at some of Jerry Kieffer's work if you don't believe this.) So, the take home message is that you'll likely gain nothing by moving to higher grade of bearing precision, and for the majority of applications, the stock Sherline will do a beautiful job. If you really NEED the precision of a truly dead-nuts spindle, get yourself something like a Levin or a Hardinge or a Monarch, and be prepared for the sticker shock. An "upgraded" Sherline won't likely do it and you'll have wasted the money you spent on the super bearings. Cheers Marcus ------- Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 16:22:32 -0000 From: "n2562001" Subject: Re: Watchmaker cone bearings & ball bearings Michael. Since you have brought up one of my favorite subjects my comments will be directed to whoever may have an interest. After doing several seminars in watch making circles I found that the preference for equipment seems to be more tradition than anything else. The underline theme of the National Watch and Clock Collector training seems to be that unless it is done like it was a hundred years ago it is not right whether it is or isn`t. I have several Brand name Jewelers lathe`s and like all other lathe`s some are more accurate than others. When doing seminars I always encourage the use of modern equipment because it takes less skill to do the same qaulity of work. I no longer use my jewelers lathe`s because I can do the same qaulity work much faster on the Sherline equipment. When doing Seminars the bearing discussion always comes up. However with all of the lathe`s present no one to date with these concerns has ever been able to demonstrate the superiority of a cone bearing jewelers lathe. I too was a non believer until I was open minded enough to try modern equipment. Most of my models have a percentage of parts that are considerably smaller than what is in a ladies wrist watch works. I firmly believe that had I not started using modern equipment I would never have developed the skill to do this. Jerry Kieffer ------- Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 15:38:13 +0000 From: dbshrumx~xxcomcast.net Subject: Bearing House Phone Number [atlas_craftsman group] Hi, I'm not sure if it was me that supplied the bearing house phone number but here's one that I frequently use: McGuire Bearing Co, 5516 First Ave South, Tacoma, WA (206) 767-3283 http://www.mcguirebearing.com/ I am in no way affiliated with this company but have, in the past, purchased bearings and seals from them for the restoration of both pre-war and post war antique BMW motorcycles. Usually what they need are the inside, outside, and width dimensions of the bearing. It's odd to me that they cannot cross-reference the bearing through the Craftsman number. Anyway, a good micrometer or caliper should see you to a successful conclusion. There has been some discussion on this site about the 'Timken' bearing being the only suitable replacement for those originally equipped with this brand. I find that Timken is only a brand and that their tapered roller bearings (which is what's in my 12" Craftsman) are no different than, say, those of SKF or FAG. When it comes time to replace the bearings, I wouldn't hesitate using another quality manufacturer's bearing. Regards, Doug Olympia, WA ------- Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2003 01:56:40 -0000 From: "azbruno" Subject: Re: Bearing House Phone Number - 101.21400 bearings In atlas_craftsman, "markzemanek" wrote: >Now THAT is some good information. Thank you Very, Very Much! So >any idea what bearing this company has that could replace the ones in a >model 101.21400? I don't need them right now, but when I do it'd be >nice to know the numbers...thanks in advance...Mark Zemanek Seattle, WA Here are Timken part numbers (and quantities), as taken from previous postings. 07079 Left bearing (1) 07100 Right bearing (1) 07196 bearing cups (2) Bruno ------- Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 11:48:09 -0500 From: Jon Elson Subject: Re: McQuire sent a bearing that's too thin, Bill Smith wrote: >for use as a thrust bearing on the spindle of my 6" >Atlas lathe. too thick or too thin was all they had. >The guy claimed I could just put a washer on either >side of the bearing. It came in 3 parts, 2 washers and >some ball bearings, in a sort of perforated disk. What >I need to know is must the washers fit the spindle >shaft tightly, or how loosesly is desirable? Thanks. No, they do not have to fit tightly. What you describe is a standard ball thrust bearing. The washers need flanges to ride against, and these flanges need to be quite "true" to the shaft, so that all the balls carry roughly equal load. The "washers" are really the ball races, and need to be constrained enough so that the balls can't ever run off past the edge of the race. Jon ------- From: "Roy" Date: Fri Jan 2, 2004 10:59 am Subject: Re: Making shafts fit roller bearing In gingery_machinesx~xxyahoogroups.com, "Dirk F Ganzinga" wrote: > Hi, when making Gingery projects sometimes a proper size axle is not > at hand. You can use a smaller size shaft and make the bearing > surfaces from black pipe. I wanted to use some discarded 35/17 mm > ball bearings. I only had 15 mm shaft, so I cut some rings from pipe > and turned them clean inside. After this the rings were glued in > position with metal glue (cyano-acrylic) and turned to 17 mm OD. A > quick, cheap and perfect fit in very little time That proceedure is common practice in everyday maintenance in machine shops doing repairs to build up shafts etc, if they do not have a spray type torch to build the surface up. Browning and others make a small sleeve as well to build up shafts etc for bearings to fit or seals to ride on. Another process that works fine is to knurl the area in question and depending on how and what way you knurl it, it can bring up a bearing area to size again. I am always in the need of doing things like this as I have a horde of all kinds of bearings and shafts and other assorted treasures of years of collecting discarded items, and no bearings or other items for that mnatter ever get tossed. So its always a situation where if I can't find what will fit together its make a shim or bushing etc. That's what makes home shop machining interesting. ------- From: "Dirk F Ganzinga" Date: Fri Jan 2, 2004 6:15 pm Subject: Re: Making shafts fit roller bearing > Thats what makes home shop machining interesting. Very true! When starting a project I first search the whole shop to find useable material. I hate coming back from the hardware store to see that I could have used stuff from myself. Often I have to change parts to make it fit. The other day I bought in a second hand bookstore the 1957 Geometer book "Workshop hints and tips", for $2. It's loaded with things like this, fun to read. It's also somewhere to be found in a Yahoo group. Dirk ------- From: "Mike Beaty" Date: Sat Jan 3, 2004 1:40 am Subject: Re: Making shafts fit roller bearing Dirk, that would be http://groups.yahoo.com/group/beginnerswkshp/ It's one of JW Early's groups, and I think you'd find all of them extremely informative Mike Beaty ------- Date: Sun, 20 Jun 2004 16:53:12 -0000 From: "mikehenryil" Subject: Re: babbit bearings For those interested in Babbitt bearings, I scanned a booklet on that subject that was published by Magnolia Metal back in the late 1920's. It was available on Metal Web News: http://www.metalwebnews.com/howto/babbitt/babbitt.html but seems to be unavailable at present due to server problems. Someone else uploaded what looks like the same booklet here, though: http://www.owwm.com/FAQ/Default.asp and there are a few other Babbitt files there that may also be of interest. Mike [NOTE TO FILE: THE FOLLOWING QUOTED INFO WAS FOUND ON THE FIRST SITE http://www.metalwebnews.com/howto/babbitt/babbitt.html BUT THE PDF FILE WAS NOT AVAILABLE HERE AS OF 21 JUN 2004. THE SECOND SITE MIKE MENTIONED http://www.owwm.com/FAQ/Default.asp HAD GREAT DOCUMENTATION AND PICTURES TO HELP REPAIR AND FIT BABBITT BEARINGS ON OLD MACHINES. LOTS OF OTHER GOOD REPAIR INFO.] >>>The Magnolia Metal Bearing Book Scanned and Submitted by Mike Henry Thanks to the expert scanning by Mr. Mike Henry, The Magnolia Metal Bearing Book (all 95 pages) is available for download in PDF format (Size 398K). This is a book printed in 1927. It contains much information on the metal, babbitt and how to use it as bearing material. Also the Magnolia Metal Corporation is still in business and can be reached at: MAGNOLIA METAL CORPORATION 6161 Abbott Drive P. O. Box 19110 Omaha, Nebraska 68119 Telephone: (402) 455-8760 Fax: (402) 455-8762 Contact: Mr. Bruce A. Wells, Sales Manager Mr. Wells tells us that Magnolia Metal's main focus is on bronze bearing material, however, they still maintain a stock of babbitt available for shipment. <<< ------- Date: Sun, 20 Jun 2004 21:45:11 EDT From: catboat15x~xxaol.com Subject: Re: Digest Number 1961 In a message dated 6/20/2004, atlas_craftsmanx~xxyahoogroups.com writes: >>>How best to test the bearings? Should I pull the cap and take a look or just wait till I get it running and see how accurately it cuts? Just from peeking down the oil cap hole, it looks awfully dry down there. I don't know what, exactly, babbit is supposed to look like.<<< Babbit looks a lot like soft solder. It is an alloy of metals having harder crystals in a matrix of a softer metal such as lead or tin. As it wears in (You have to be an old timer to remember when you had to drive really slow for the first 500 miles in a new car to "break in" all the babbit bearings on the crankshaft and rods.) Babbit wears so the shaft is supported and runs on the harder crystals while the softer stuff is supposed to allow any crud to become imbedded and to hold oil. To check your bearings you can do it this way. After the lathe is on your bench and well oiled put something in the chuck or just screw on a chuck or face plate. Use some kind of wood prybar (1 X 3 or 4) and see if the spindle is loose when you apply moderate force. If the bearings are good there will be very little or no movement. To see if they are too tight run the lathe for a period of an hour or so at a moderate speed. The bearings should feel warm but not hot. There are usually shims under the caps and sometimes an eager seller will pull out the shims to fool a buyer and the spindle feels nice and tight, but will heat up too much when running. If the spindle feels loose then you can remove a shim or two till it is tight again, and run it for a period to check you did not take too many shims. It may look as if there is one thick shim under the cap, but with a knife you can peel off the separate shims to make your adjustments. The way us old "pepper tree mechanics" used to adjust our main and rod bearings on an engine overhaul was to adjust shims so the bearing could be moved lengthwise with a rap from a hammer handle or similar but not pushed lengthwise by hand. I don't think you could do this with a lathe without removing any end play adjustments there. A babbit bearing is really a better lathe bearing than ball or roller bearings but will not stand abuse as well. Keep it oiled well and if adjusted right will give you many years of good service. You can not tell by appearance if the bearings are good or bad (Unless the lathe has been really abused and chunks of bearing material are dug out or the spindle in the bearing area is badly scored. I would not disassemble unless you really have to, the most would be to remove the caps to inspect the spindle bearing areas. I feel (may by being pig headed) that the less disassembly you do on a well operating machine the better.) Been there and one that on one of our plants all new pumps were taken apart and inspected then put back together, Lots of pump failures on start up. The next plant we built we just installed pumps as they came from the factory and had very few failures. As you run your new lathe be aware that the babbit bearing Atlas lathes were not designed for long periods of high speed running. If the bearings feel hot slow down or stop and let things cool off a bit. You can run all day at moderate speeds, but if you try to speed up like a wood lathe the bearings will not last long. ------- Date: Sun, 20 Jun 2004 22:41:43 -0500 From: Jon Elson Subject: Re: Re: babbit bearings RJ wrote: >>Pulling the cap is a good idea, often swarf gets into the bearing. If the bearing or the spindle is seriously scored, you have a problem. If it looks good in there, that is a positive sign. Make sure not to lose the aluminum laminated shims, and to put the bearing cap back on the same way. << >First off, let me say thanks to all that replied with advice and info, both on and off the list. I've learned ALOT about babbit since posing the question. Checked out a few web sites concerning same and will probably buy Vince Gingery's book from Lindsay, as well. I pulled the caps and looked things over, not really knowing if I'd see a problem even if there was one, but I'm thinking I'm good for a fairly long time, considering the minor amount of use I have for this lathe. My overall impression was that these bearing were replaced not long ago and have very few hours on them since. There was some discoloration and some tool marks but I felt they were a natural part of the replacement process. If I closed my eyes and felt them I couldn't feel any grooves or rough spots, other than one small "pit" where I'm guessing a bubble had been trapped. Before taking the caps off I put some major moves on the chuck and felt NO noticeable sloppiness and before I put the spindle back in I smeared a little white grease into the lower journals and when I slowly spun the spindle there was a nice, even coating of grease across the spindle shaft. One other thing that caught my eye though, was that the number of shims was different, front to back. Both the near side cap bolts had 2 shims; both the far (back) ones had only one. Don't know if this matters but it seems to me they should be the same to keep the cap level.< It sounds like your bearings have been repoured. If they did a good job, that is great. The trick, of course, is to get a good bearing WHILE maintaining alignment of the spindle with the bed. Not so easy to do! Don't worry too much about the number of shims, as long as the bearing is working right and the spindle is aligned. Keeping the caps level wouldn't be a concern, if you are talking about a difference of .002" front to back. I used to make finer adjustments with aluminum foil. >There were no wicks in the cups and you're right, when I looked inside all I could see was shiny spindle shaft. Will attend to this right away, and make sure the oil is plentiful. A couple other quick questions, if I may, concerning things I noticed as I was playing with this today, and both concerning pins. There is a pin that locks the bull wheel(?) to the spindle pulley. Should this be spring loaded, and locked in the *in* or *out* position, or do you just hope it stays where you put it? There is also an indexing pin of some sort that sticks through the case and nearly into the back of the holes in said bull wheel, but I can't get this pin to do *anything*. Does it push/pull, is it threaded...what? Don't want to force it.< Yes, the direct drive pin is supposed to have a spring-loaded detent ball, but if you pull hard, it can pop out, and the ball will just about be impossible to find. If there's no detent action, carefully pull the pin all the way out, and be ready to contain the ball if it flies out. There might be some swarf binding it, or the ball and spring could be missing. I think the spring is close to a ballpoint pen spring, and the ball shouldn't be real hard to replace, either. Possibly, the pin has been replaced, and the previous owner didn't put the detent grooves in it. The index pin is not threaded, and I don't remember if it has a detent or not. But, you should be able to gently rotate it with pliers and try to work it free. Jon ------- Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2004 10:04:58 -0500 From: xlch58x~xxswbell.net Subject: Re: Re: babbit bearings Jon Elson wrote: >>Don't worry too much about the number of shims, as long as the bearing is working right and the spindle is aligned. Keeping the caps level wouldn't be a concern, if you are talking about a difference of .002" front to back. I used to make finer adjustments with aluminum foil. << The number of shims(more correctly, the total height of each stack) is critical in that it establishes the bearing clearance when the cap bolts are properly torqued down, you need to replace them exactly as they were at the very least. Even then, there is the possibility that the clearance will not be as before due to how they spoon on reassembly and differences in torque applied to the cap bolts. The bearing caps do not locate the spindle, the bearings do. There will be some variation in a poured bearing based on the setup used, so you need to put it back as it was, or even better, buy some plastigauge and verify the clearance. Mixing up the shims or leaving a couple out is a great way to scorch your bearings. Even puting them all back in the way they came out, you will probably increase the clearance and lose accuracy if you don't recheck them. It is critical that you use a torque wrench when putting the cap on each time when using plastigauge, since any variation in bolt torque will affect the clearance. Babbit bearings are not hand fitted, so they are not interchangeable and the shimming can vary from one side of the cap to the other( not a good practice, but done sometimes to get that last thou or half thou of clearance) and from one cap to the other. This is pretty much what Jon was saying, but a quick read could have missed the point ( like I did the first time I read his comment) Charles ------- Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2004 09:19:57 -0700 From: "Bob May" Subject: Re: Re: babbit bearings Check the pointing of the spindle to see if the shim count is right. If the spindle is pointing high towards the tailstock then you may scrape a little bit off the right bottom half of the bearing to level the spindle. I'll note that odds are that the spindle is probably pointing in the right direction farily close to exactly where it should be if the bearings were poured right. I'll also note that as the bearings wear, the spindle will probably point higher as the right bearing will wear on the top and the left bearing on the bottom due to the forces involved in cutting on the lathe. Bob May http://nav.to/bobmay NEW! http://bobmay.astronomy.net ------- Date: Sun, 20 Jun 2004 22:30:11 -0500 From: Jon Elson Subject: Re: Excessive headstock play Chris Allred wrote: >I own a Atlas-Craftsman 101.27430 that I bought used. Everything >runs and works well except for the excessive play in the headstock. >the play is from left to right not front to back. I pushed the 3-jaw >tight to one side and set up my dial indicator and zeroed it out. >When I push on the other end of the spindle I it moves .043". I know >that WAY to much play in the headstock but I am not sure if the >bearings are bad or if there is supposed to be a collar or something >to keep it from moving left to right. Yes, there should be a threaded collar that adjusts the clearance. There is a gear for the power takeoff to the threading gears, and a spacer about 1/4" thick under that, then the bronze (I think) thrust bearing. Don't take out all the play, or it can bind up. Often, the gear gets bound on the key, and refuses to slide. You may have to remove the gear and file the key just a bit to allow the gear to slide. You might even need to make a new spacer to adjust for all the wear. Jon ------- Date: Tue, 07 Dec 2004 09:19:56 -0500 From: "Bob Alderink" Subject: bad headstock bearing -- newbie needs help I have an old Atlas 10" 'D' lathe that I inherited from my uncle. I have been using it recently to turn some small wood pieces (pen barrels on a mandrel). One of the headstock spindle bearings, the one on the right, developed a nasty sound and then stopped the spindle. The spindle still turns when I move it by hand. My question: Can someone tell me how to remove the bearing, where I might find a replacement, and tell me that I didn't ruin this lathe. Also, could you tell me the best way to provide the necessary lubrication for these parts. (The felts from the oil cups seems are missing.) I'd hate to have this happen again. Bob Alderink ------- Date: Tue, 07 Dec 2004 15:44:19 -0000 From: "drifter1951" Subject: Re: bad headstock bearing -- newbie needs help Go to this link: http://www.atlas-press.com/tb_10bg.htm#REMOVING%20HEADSTOCK%20SPINDLE It tells you how to dissassemble the headstock. Drifter ------- Date: Tue, 07 Dec 2004 12:16:07 -0600 From: Jon Elson Subject: Re: bad headstock bearing -- newbie needs help A D model almost has to have babbit bearings. Remove the two bolts on the cap and lift off. There are laminated shims under the cap, keep track of where they go. The babbit bearing lathes don't have felt wicks in the cups. The close fit of the bearings is supposed to retain the oil. You probably ran out of oil and melted the babbit. If the bearings don't fit closely, it is VERY difficult to keep them properly lubed. I had the same problem, and not having any idea how to repour babbit at that time, I replaced it with a Timken-bearing headstock. The babbit CAN be repoured, but it is a very complicated procedure to keep the spindle properly aligned. Jon ------- Date: Tue, 07 Dec 2004 20:20:29 -0000 From: "Rob Peterson" Subject: Re: bad headstock bearing -- newbie needs help >it is a very complicated procedure to keep the spindle properly aligned Repouring babbitt isn't THAT difficult. Babbit is available from McMaster- Carr. As for align-boring the headstock after repouring the bearings, that's not required. What will be required is that you do this with the headstock ON the lathe bed. To rebuild a babbit bearing headstock you'll need a bar to locate the headstock spindle in the headstock. Make one that fits the spindle taper or use a collet. This bar must also fit in the tailstock in some fashion and be strong enough to hold the weight of the bare spindle. Now, remove the babbit from the headstock casting by heating or chiseling it out. Either method works and the cast iron can take the pounding from chiseling as long as you hammer on the babbit and not the iron. Once the headstock is empty and clean you're ready to start. Use some lampblack on the bearing surfaces to keep the babbit from sticking. You can also wrap the bearing surface in oiled paper if you want to instead of using the lampblack. Set the BARE spindle in place. Use some babitrite clay to make catch-dams for the babbit on the outside surfaces of the bearing area on the headstock. Leave the bearing caps off for now. You can melt babbit on a camp stove in an old pot. Melt enough to pour one bearing half at a time. While the babbit is heating, pre-heat the spindle and housing with a propane torch. Just get it warm enough so that the babbit doesn't immediately harden when poured in there. Pour the babbit when it's melted and at the proper temperature (chars a pine stick) into the bearing cavity. It doesn't matter too much if you pour it over the bearing journal except it makes it a touch harder to get the spindle out. Once the babbit is poured, WALK AWAY for a few hours/overnight. Don't mess with it as you'll just mess it up. Once the whole thing is fully cooled off, you can pull the spindle out and file the babbit flush with the top of the casting. Replace the spindle and attach the caps with shims underneath. Repour and re-heat as above for the caps. Pour through the oiler holes. Once everything is poured and cooled, you can clean out the oiler holes and reassemble. All of this information is available in books. I think Gingery has one. Rob P. who has to repour his bandsaw bearings sometime soon. ------- Date: Wed, 8 Dec 2004 23:52:26 EST From: catboat15x~xxaol.com Subject: Re: Digest Number 2150 In a message dated 12/7/2004, > Repouring babbitt isn't THAT difficult. I think you left out one step. We found when pouring Babbitt bearings you have to "tin" the shells otherwise the babbitt wants to spin within the shells. Cost us a couple tries with redoing connecting rods to learn that trick. We would buy 50/50 solder bar, rub the cleaned up shells with Sal Ammoniac (Probably any acid type flux for sheet metal would work. This makes sure the babbitt bonds to the cast iron shell. John Meacham in the high desert of California 12 inch Atlas, Minimill, HF bandsaw, rusty file ------- Date: Tue, 07 Dec 2004 22:58:05 -0600 From: Jon Elson Subject: Re: Re: bad headstock bearing -- newbie needs help Rob Peterson wrote: >To rebuild a babbit bearing headstock you'll need a bar to locate >the headstock spindle in the headstock. Make one that fits the >spindle taper or use a collet. This bar must also fit in the >tailstock in some fashion and be strong enough to hold the weight of >the bare spindle. This is fine for the chuck end of the spindle, assuming the rear bearing is fine. If both are quite worn, you need something to hold the back end of the spindle. I've heard of people moving the headstock down to the middle of the bed, and then using an extra tailstock with the ram reversed in the bore (you can do this on the atlas after removing the handle bushing). Jon ------- Date: Wed, 08 Dec 2004 14:10:36 -0000 From: "robert_alderink" Subject: Re: bad headstock bearing -- newbie needs help --update Thanks for everyone's good advice. Just a point of clarification: the lathe is an "F" series not "D" as I said previously. So the bearings are the tapered roller bearing type not Babbit. From the discussion, this seems to be good for me. I am having trouble removing the woodruff key that's under the large spindle gear. I just can't seem to get enough clearance to pull it out. I must be just a millimeter or two away from pulling it out. ------- Date: Wed, 08 Dec 2004 16:04:15 -0000 From: "rumutt" Subject: Re: bad headstock bearing -- newbie needs help --update Lightly tap the spindle to the left till about half of the key is showing then take a small screw driver and lift the exposed end of the key. It should start to rotate up. Then tap the spindle to the left some more and lift the key again. Do this till you can get hold of the key and pull it out or till you rotate it out. Bruce ------- Date: Wed, 08 Dec 2004 20:23:15 -0000 From: "robert_alderink" Subject: Re: bad headstock bearing -- newbie needs help --update So close-- I have about 1/2 to 3/4 of the key rotated out. Just can't seem to get it the rest of the way. I can get a pliers on it but it won't budge. More tapping and pulling tonight, I guess. Bob ------- Date: Wed, 8 Dec 2004 15:54:21 -0500 From: "Kirk Scammon" Subject: Re: Re: bad headstock bearing -- newbie needs help --update Bob, try clamping onto the key with vice grips and then tapping on the vice grips, this worked for me. Kirk -------- Date: Wed, 8 Dec 2004 18:15:00 EST From: LouD31M066x~xxaol.com Subject: Re: Re: bad headstock bearing -- newbie needs help --update Anyway when you get the woodruff key out, by whatever means, it is a common item at your local hardware store. Getting the Timken bearing cups out or headstock casting is easier if you first clean out the crevice so the crap doesn't form a wedge and second have a disc turned to proper size to catch back of cup but still pass thru headstock opening...disc to have hole in center like a washer so bolt and nut arrangement can be used to draw cup out and later to reinstall new. Louis ------- Date: Thu, 9 Dec 2004 08:59:51 -0500 From: Nick Hull Subject: Re: bad headstock bearing -- newbie needs help >Try clamping onto the key with vice grips and then tapping on the vice >grips, this worked for me. I have a real handy tool for this stuff. It's a vice grips with a looong shaft for the adjusting screw and a sliding weight like a dent puller. Just grab the key with the vice grips and slide the weight to PULL and jerk the key out. ------- Date: Fri, 10 Dec 2004 14:43:11 -0000 From: "robert_alderink" Subject: Re: bad headstock bearing -- not getting any easier! After a bit of tapping and tugging I managed to pull out the key. I was hoping that the spindle would tap out pretty easily. I was wrong. (I think I know why Uncle never changed the belt.) After some pretty serious hammering, I haven't been able to free the spindle. I'm afraid I may damage something if I hammer too hard. Everyone's been most helpful with advice. Any tricks here that I can try? I managed to get the spindle even with the left side of the headstock so it's moved about 2" or so. -------- Date: Fri, 10 Dec 2004 13:12:29 -0500 (EST) From: x xx Subject: Re: Re: bad headstock bearing -- not getting any easier! Suspect you've suffered a common form for spindle abuse. A setscrew was made of harder material than the spindle and raised a burr that the pulley cannot pass. Now that the key is out, gently tap the pulley back where it lives, and preferably a little further. Then with a fine, fine file, like a needle file, very gently make a pass along the exposed spindle. Where it then shines, there is a high point. Work it down with the file. Tap the spindle gently to see if it will pass. Repeat as necessary. By and by the spindle will pass. It you are very gentle you will not remove enuff to make the pulley wobble. When you reassemble, be mindful of the setscrew problem. If you don't have a soft enough setscrew, nip 1/16" off a bit of brass wire that'll pass the setscrew threads, and let the business end of the setscrew step on that. Sam ------- Date: Thu, 16 Dec 2004 21:42:37 -0600 From: Jon Elson Subject: Re: that dieing bearing scream Jerry wrote: >Hi guy's, tonight whilst turning some ebony tool knobs on my AC I got >that dreaded scream of a dieing bearing in the headstock. Probably >one of the large spindle bearings - at least I think that's where it is. >I've gotten about 4 years of good use out of it so I'm not mashing sour >grapes here, but I'm wondering what's involved in tearing into this >thing. How can I diagnose the whole problem. Am I looking at an >opportunity to do a complete refurbishing and if that's my best choice >what else should I look at replacing? Is there anything else on this >that can scream like a dead bearing? Replacing the Timken bearings, if that's what you have, is not a big job. It really helps if you can get the lathe working for a few minutes to make some driver discs for the spindle. You make discs with a step on the OD so that they fit securely in each end of the spindle. One is to drive it out, the other to drive it back in. Also make a center drill on the face with the larger OD on these discs. You use a gear puller set to drive the spindle in and out with these. It is highly unlikely your Timken bearings have actually seized. More likely is that a big chip has wedged under one of the rollers and locked it up. You should be able to dig the bearing shield disc out of the headstock just behind the chuck and inspect for debris. A bad foreign object bind-up could damage the bearing enough to warrant replacement, but a small chip might be able to be removed and the bearing still be usable. If this is a Babbit bearing headstock, it is likely salvagable, at least in the short term. If the spindle is not totally seized, just unbolt the bearing caps and remove the spindle. If any babbit has welded itself to the spindle, remove it with a sharp knife, fine sandpaper, possibly even a fingernail. If the spindle is rough or gouged, you might smooth it with the finest sandpaper (be sure to remove all sanding dust before reinstalling.) Remove any chips and debris from the bearings, lubricate them well with SAE 30 or even STP and reassemble. Check clearance with a dial indicator, and fiddle with the laminated shims under the bearing caps until the free play is pretty small. Restart the spindle slowly at first, then allow the speed to increase, frequently checking for heating of the bearing. Also, there is a thrust bearing at the back, and it can tighten up under some circumstances (I had this happen on mine once for no reason I could determine.) Jon ------- Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2004 19:23:53 -0000 From: "Jerry" Subject: WHEW - Not a bearing! Color me "relieved and happy". My dead bearing scream was not a bearing at all as I originally thought. Something in the gear train associated with the feed reverse lever is the culprit. I'm now pouring through the books and Clausing web site trying to find out what can be dropping out of alignment in there. All the nuts holding the gears in place are tight but the lever is wobbly/loose. When the screaming starts I can wiggle the shifter and it will go away so I "think" I need to get in behind those two gears and tighten something up. My first cursory exam doesn't show any gears with busted teeth. Guess I'm just lucky so far. ------- Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2004 14:34:23 -0500 From: "Mark Babiy" Subject: Re: WHEW - Not a bearing! Jerry, when I was working on my machine, I had the leadscrew freeze up and I could not figure out what it was. It was stuck, I could not use the leadscrew, was able to keep the feed lever in neutral and could get the leadscrew to spin. The minute I tried to switch to forward or reverse it just died, the belt sttarted slipping, I thought at first it was gear teeth, something in the way, then went to broken teeth and then was stuck. In the end it turned out to be the one of the shafts in the quick change box where it met the body of the quick change box. It was frozen solid from what I think was use of grease rather than oil as a lubricant. Over time, with the lathe not in use, the grease got stickey and just simply froze around the shaft. I had never rebuilt the gear box and so with judicoious use of oil was eventually able to free up the shaft and the whole thing spins like a hot knife through butter. It was so simple yet so difficult to diagnose. Mark [Then Jerry replied: "I don't have the QC box on my machine so I suspect my solution might be a bit simpler, but, thanks for the observation." ------- Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2004 21:28:17 -0000 From: "Jerry" Subject: Re: WHEW - Not a bearing! I "THINK" I fixed my scream problem anyway. I punched out some .006" copper shim stock washers and put them under the heads of the bolts that hold the shift lever against headstock and the two FWD/REV meshing gears mounted on the lever body. The shim's snugged things up considerable all around. I ran the lathe for a while and no noise (except the normal klashing and groaning) - so maybe I'm fixed for another 4 or 5 years. Thanks for the help. ------- Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2005 18:46:08 -0000 From: "Rob Peterson" Subject: Re: babbit bearing clearances --- In atlas_craftsmanx~xxyahoogroups.com, "nic8559"wrote: > I'm new to the group, have recently been given yes given a old > atlas lathe. It is a 10" the only numbers on it are at the end of > the front way, they are 0723 also stamped next to it is the name > Chase Church. I'm a machinist by trade and decided the first thing > to do would be to give the old girl a thorough cleaning and > inspection, an easy decision since it came minus a chuck, any > centers or tooling. Not that I'm complaining, my question is what > should the bearing clearances be? Radial and thrust. The bearing > nearest the chuck had a couple of brass shims in the horizontal joint, > sorry I haven't measured them yet, the gear end bearing had only one. The 0723 is the serial #. Bed stamped serial #'s mean that it's an early model. Babbitt bearings confirm that the headstock and the bed are probably same era. Chase Church? Something rings familiar about that in the dim recesses of my mind but...... Babbitt bearings should have a couple/three thou clearance. The shims are under the bearing caps so that the clearances can be adjusted as the babbitt wears. Thrust should be about the same or less. Best determination is to set the clearance and then run the machine for a bit. The bearing caps should be warm but not hot. If hot, then it's too tight. If it slings oil like it's sitting on a petroleum reserve, it's too loose. Warning: DO NOT spin a babbitt bearing that has been sitting dry! Not even a little bit by hand. Take off the cap, pull the shaft and check for junk & dirt first. If it's clean in there then oil the journal and replace the shaft & cap and add oil to the cups before spinning the shaft. If you spin the shaft without checking and there's one little speck of hardened/dried crud or dirt in there, you'll score something and then you're going to have to repour the bearings and/or sleeve the shaft. There is a good chance of this happening if the machine has been sitting for several years without maintenance or periodic oiling. Expecially if the cups were left open for dirt to fall into (or are missing). This is the most common error people make with babbitt bearings. Rob P. who FINALLY finished making repair sleeves for his spindle that suffered from this sort of mistake (and others). ------- Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2005 13:05:51 -0600 From: Jon Elson Subject: Re: babbit bearing clearances The original setup had laminated aluminum shims, you peeled laminations off to compensate for wear. With a dial indicator mounted to the headstock, you would check vertical and horizontal free play with a 50 Lb load applied one foot from the end of the spindle. You should shoot for about .001" free play. This free play would be taken up by the oil film when running. Vertical free play can be fixed by reducing the shims. Horizontal free play CAN'T be fixed, except by repouring the babbit! That's the bad news! The axial free play is not very critical, .005" is probably fine in most cases. Almost any turning operation applies an inward axial thrust on the spindle, so the bearing only has to accept that force, it really isn't necessary to tightly constrain the spindle in both directions. Jon ------- Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2005 04:51:29 -0000 From: "camfambmw5" Subject: Next, getting the Races off [atlas_craftsman group] I purchased a press: http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v287/camfamdad/IMG_0108.jpg This is what I used to get the Timken bearings off the shaft. Now I have to get the races out. I have not even tried, looking for a couple of pointers first. I assume that some of you have accomplished this. Tips, pointers, etc. Thanks gang John ------- Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2005 23:56:43 EST From: gto69ra4x~xxaol.com Subject: Re: Next, getting the Races off Getting the outer races out of the headstock? It's pretty easy. Clean everything so dirt doesn't get in the way. The way I got them out was to take a metal disc the diameter of the races. I put that against the inward facing size, then used a large rod and a hammer to drive them out. Carefully, not as brutal as it sounds. GTO(John) ------- Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2005 00:13:34 EST From: LouD31M066x~xxaol.com Subject: Re: Next, getting the Races off Presume you mean the cup(s) that fit in recess(s) in headstock casting... they can be in very firmly. 1) Don't EVEN Think hammer...too much chance of breaking something. 2) clean all the crap out of the recess and pick out dirt around rim of cup so it is not there to jam things up when cup is forced out...a little fresh oil brushed on bore of recess might help things along. 3) Turn a thick washer just small enough in diameter to fit thru hole in casting yet large enough to act upon the cup. 4) make up a draw bar of a piece of 1/2 inch all-thread and make up bits and pieces to enable you to draw the cup out of the recess by turning a nut on the all-thread. 5) use caution in removing so you don't break something cast iron (like headstock) you will be able to apply an enormous mechanical advantage and something should give, hopefully the cup/race. If you apply a bit of force and cup does not move better to soak in a penetrating solvent of your choice than to give it a couple more turns...same method to reinstall...remember this is intended to be a tight fit so some gently force is the intended method...leave the hammer out of it! Easy does it. Louis ------- Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2005 14:15:37 -0600 From: Jon Elson Subject: Re: Next, getting the Races off gto69ra4x~xxaol.com wrote: >> I guess mine weren't very stuck in there. A few soft axial blows with a hammer on the forcing tool and they popped right out. Not even close to the danger of damaging anything. The harder trick is getting them back in. That's where the all-thread and mating parts come in handy. I pressed the forward cup in with the tailstock ram (in order to get everything square as a starting place) and then drew the rear one in. << Just drive them flush with the casting with a 2 x 4. Then, assemble the whole spindle assembly, and when you begin to set the preload, the axial force will fully seat the outer races. Jon ------- Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2005 20:53:34 -0600 From: Jon Elson Subject: Re: Re: Next, getting the Races off camfambmw5 wrote: >Jon, >I assume you think I will be successful in getting them off first ;-) >I did this a long time ago, but I don't recall it being very hard. >But, once I do, what is meant by "When I begin to set the preload", >my new-b-ness is shining right on through here. There is a threaded ring on the back of the spindle that stretches the spindle between the bearings. That stretch is called "preload". The bearing inner races press inward on the outer races and the headstock casting. After assembling all the parts, and tightening the ring until all slack is out of the bearings, you tighten it about equal to one tooth of that gear on the back. Jon ------- Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 11:23:13 -0600 From: Jon Elson Subject: Re: Re: Next, getting the Races off gto69ra4x~xxaol.com wrote: >I'd be wary of doing that. The force required to seat the cups is >higher than I'd want to transmit through the bearings. You'd really >be horsing down on that smooth threaded collar. If the bearing's nest in the headstock casting is completely clean, and a little lube is wiped on it, I think you'll have no problem seating them with less than the normal preload force. The preload puts at least several hundreds of Lbs axial tension on the spindle when it is cold. (The preload is ingeniously devised to reduce when hot!) If the casting is gouged up from driving the cups out with grit being ground into the cast iron, then you have a problem, and cleaning the burrs off the casting is a good idea. I found it took little force to drive the cups in, and the spindle and bearings pretty much guarantee driving them perfectly square. When driving by hand, you could easily do it crooked and make them bind up. Jon ------- Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 23:45:56 -0000 From: "jim_popa" Subject: Re: Next, getting the Races off John: I would lean toward pressing the bearings out...You can try to see if it moves with LIGHT tapping, but if you break the headstock casting you have a major headache... An earlier reply stated tightening the spindle nut enough to take out all play, then tighten another gear tooth. The manual says two teeth, then run the machine 1/2 hour to heat everything up and check for end play. I sold my 10" Atlas (TH48) when I replaced it with a 12" Atlas-Craftsman (101.07403), but I kept the factory manual. You need the manual for your machine, not only for setup, but for the wealth of info in there. It's about $25 + shipping from Clausing Service center. Call them: 574-533-0371 with your model and serial #'s. The book is part # 6600. They take credit cards. Hope this helps. Jim ------- Date: Wed, 02 Feb 2005 23:24:39 -0000 From: "Rob Peterson" Subject: Oh DRAT!!! Spindle sleeve repair [atlas_craftsman group] Trying to repair the spindle on my 618 Atlas. It's REALLY worn and grooved on the bushing surfaces. So, I turned the spindle .010" undersized for about an inch at the bearing surfaces and made steel sleeve bushings to fit that were .002" smaller in ID than the turned spindle sections. The idea WAS to heat and shrink the sleeves over the spindle then turn the spindle to restore the original diameters. Like I said: The idea WAS to do it this way. It didn't work. I built a small forge and heated the sleeves until they were red to white hot. I froze the spindle in the freezer overnight to give me the best possible chance of getting the sleeves over the unturned portion of the spindle before the sleeves got too cold. I clamped the spindle into a verticle positon right next to the mini- forge and got ready. Grabbed the tongs, scooped up the sleeve and dropped it onto the spindle... I only got about a 1/16" before the sleeve shrank and stuck. I think it's because the sleeve didn't have enough mass to retain the heat long enough to get into place. In any event, I now have to split the sleeve off of the spindle and go to Plan B. Plan B is to sweat the sleeve into place with silver solder and then finish the spindle repair as planned. This should work but then again, so should have Plan A. Once I have the spindle rebuilt, I'm going to turn a NEW ONE and replace the repaired one. I'd make a new one now, except that the Southbend I have access to in order to do this with is so sloppy that I'm positive that the new spindle wouldn't fit or wouldn't run true. Plus there's very little tooling to use and who can afford to buy tooling for someone else's lathe when they have their own to buy stuff for? Anyway, back to square 1. Rob P. ------- Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2005 15:51:09 -0800 (PST) From: Ken Tjomsland Subject: Re: Oh DRAT!!! Spindle sleeve repair Hi Rob, I've had similar experiences and I think you're correct that the sleeves would be more likely to work if they were of a "subtantial" wall thickness. You didn't say just how thick the failed ones were, but I would go for 1/4 to 3/8 wall thickness--to be turned down, of course, but even better to be finished by grinding if possible. At these thicknesses, you have enough mass not only to carry some heat, but also to provide a good lip to press on or drive on if that is necessary. Rather than .002" I'd go with about .0005" for the inter- ference fit. The forces generated by the .5 thou should be more than enough to keep the sleeve from spinning while in use. Then, heat only to maybe 6-700F -- the colors you describe are closer to "welding temps." And welding is not what you want ! The lower difference in temperatures will also transfer heat more slowly and that, too, will be in your favor. Shouldn't be too hard to make some more sleeves--the second attempt is usually a lot faster than the first. Let us know how it works! HTH --Ken Tjomsland ------- Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2005 18:15:01 -0800 (PST) From: james nicoletto Subject: Re: Oh DRAT!!! Spindle sleeve repair You may not believe this and most of you will think I'm crazy, only one of you knows for sure and he has seen this type of repair work. I work in a repair shop at a power station; we regularly repair bearing and seal surfaces with a product known as Belzona. It is similar to Devcon and JB Weld, you know the plastic steel stuff. Rough up the journal area, a coarse grit blast is best then goop on the plastic steel. After it cures turn it to size. It is a lot easier to do than traditional shaft build up methods like flame spraying or what you are trying to do and if it doesn't work turn it off try something else. ------- Date: Wed, 02 Feb 2005 19:37:27 -0700 From: Greg Smith Subject: Re: Oh DRAT!!! Spindle sleeve repair I will vouch for Jim on this one. They have done some amazing repairs out at the plant with Belzona. I love the stuff, because when the machinists use it, it saves ME having to build up the shafts with welding rod! http://www.belzona.com Best Regards, Greg ------- Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2005 12:02:24 -0800 From: "Bob May" Subject: Re: Oh DRAT!!! Spindle sleeve repair Pick up the propane torch and heat the sleeve and it will open up again and allow the sleeve to go in further. It is also better to make the sleeve just long enough for the bearing and also to turn the OD of the sleeve after you have it on as this provides more heat holding capacity for the sleeve. Bob May http://nav.to/bobmay http://bobmay.astronomy.net ------- Date: Tue, 20 Sep 2005 00:51:18 -0000 From: "sauer38h" Subject: Re: Atlas 618 bearings [atlas_craftsman] > I would like to strip my new (to me) 618 lathe down for a nice coat > of paint. While I am doing this, I would like to replace the Timken > bearings. Are these reasonably available, where can I get them, and > what part numbers do I ask for? Thanks in advance for any help this > group can provide. Tyros always want to replace bearings just because they happen to be at a stage at which it's easy to do. My professional advice as a machine design engineer with thirty years experience is - don't do it. Replace them if they've failed, not before. And don't hammer on them to remove them if you have any plans to reuse them. Some twenty-odd years ago I did enough design work on precision spindles that I know when to leave well enough alone. And I didn't ask the guys behind the counter at Bearings 'R Us for technical advice. They're good at finding the wrong bearing which will happen to fit your shaft and housing - which is not what you want to do here. ------- 2006 NOTE TO FILE: SETSCREW CONTACT WITH SPINDLE - PROBLEMS AND SOLUTIONS When a setscrew is used to hold a gear or pulley or other device to a spindle or axle or shaft, in time there is a good probability that the setscrew will dig into that shaft. The likely results: (a) the point or cup on the setscrew will raise a burr of shaft metal; (b) this burr, or scoring if the setscrew slips and the item spins/moves on the shaft, will make removal of the item from the shaft difficult even after the setscrew is unscrewed. Note also, some folks have put a second setscrew on top of the first to make sure it does not vibrate out. So make sure all setscrews are removed before trying to disassemble. To avoid the problem in the first place, several options include: (1) file a small flat on the shaft where the point/cup of the setscrew will contact it (now if it raises a burr, disassembly is unaffected); (2) place a soft (soft compared to steel) "grabby" object into the hole bottom between the setscrew and the shaft (it should be a size just small enough to slip past the hole threads)-- for example: - a ball of lead birdshot; - a short piece/slug of brass or copper wire; - a short piece/slug of aluminium (caution - aluminium may weld or fuse itself to the steel shaft, which can be a good thing if you never want the assembly to come apart on its own). Now if you succeed in taking apart a shaft where no such precautions were made, you will be motivated to carefully stone-off raised burrs and use (1) or (2) as above when you reassemble. This subject is also discussed within messages found here in files like: "Atlas Belts and Pulleys" and "Taig Lathe Tips". The "Taig Mill Tips" file has some ideas on removing stuck pulleys. ------- From: "Rob Peterson" harpyx~xxavenuecable.com Date: Fri Apr 28, 2006 11:51am(PDT) Subject: Re: 6" Craftsman 101 Lathe Replacment Spindle? [atlas_craftsman] In atlas_craftsmanx~xxyahoogroups.com, "Joe R" wrote: > Check on ebay for a head stock. By the way unless someone has messed > with them you have babbit bearings. Joe Actually, the 6 inch lathes were either Timkin or used bronze bushings. There were no 6 inch lathes made with babbitt bearings. There have been some statements that the bushings were sintered bronze (oilite) but that's not true either. The factory bushings were plain bronze and they are available cheap so replacing them is the thing to do when you get a new spindle. New spindles aren't cheap and the used ones tend to be worn out. If you can temporarily salvage your current spindle you can make a replacement on the lathe. It's not that difficult and is good practice for your machining skills. However, if you don't have a keyway cutter and mill, have a machine shop cut the keyways for you. Disassemble the lathe and take the old spindle with you to the machine shop so he can locate the keyways in the proper place. Bore the spindle after installing it so you can be sure that the headstock taper is centered/aligned with the lathe. Ditto with the chuck threads. ------- From: "Dean Kirsten" anglia1948x~xxyahoo.com Date: Fri Apr 28, 2006 5:48pm(PDT) Subject: Re: 6" Craftsman 101 Lathe Replacment Spindle? I checked the last price list from Clausing (1/06), and the 618 spindle is still listed, and is #M6-31, and is, er, ah, $240.41.... Yikes. I think you would be better off looking at a used head stock assembly on e-bay. Hope this helps... Oh, by the way, Clausing's number is 800-535-6553. Dean ------- From: "rakm70" tms-2x~xxcox.net Date: Fri Apr 28, 2006 7:32pm(PDT) Subject: Re: 6" Craftsman 101 Lathe Replacment Spindle? Thanks for all of the advice everyone. I was able to salvage the spindle. It's not perfect but will work for now. I'll keep looking on ebay for a replacement or may try to turn my own eventually. ------- From: "Leo Reed" lpreedzonex~xxearthlink.net Date: Sat Apr 29, 2006 6:45am(PDT) Subject: 6 inch Craftsman 101.07301 spindle bearings... Bearing material... I would like to quote from the manual supplied by Sears with this lathe: "NOTE: Oiless Bronze Bearings are used in the headstock and lubrication takes place by oil seepage through the porous bushing wall, thus assuring a filtered lubricant. DO NOT DRILL HOLES THROUGH THE BUSHING" The manual also recommends 10 weight oil. This manual and lathe was purchased in 1956. Leo (pearland, tx) ------- From: "Michael Fagan" woodworker88x~xxgmail.com Date: Sat Apr 29, 2006 3:00pm(PDT) Subject: Re: 6 inch Craftsman 101.07301 spindle bearings... Just a side note, I use oilite bushings almost exclusively. They are a significant increase in performance and not that much of an increase in cost. Even if the originals were std bronze it would make sense to upgrade them to oilite. Michael ------- From: "Leo Reed" lpreedzonex~xxearthlink.net Date: Sat Apr 29, 2006 4:20pm(PDT) Subject: Re: 6 inch Craftsman 101.07301 spindle bearings... > Huh, guess I stand corrected on the bearing material. Of course I've > never SEEN a 618 with oilite bushings. The only bushings I've ever > seen come out of these lathes have all been std bronze. Not that > I've seen so many that I'm an expert on them or anything. > RP > standing with his hat in his hand making a mental note to read the > fricking manual....... someday. Rob, others have expressed the same opinion about these bearings. There is a "web site" that states this. But, might mean that the bearings are "plain", as opposed to a "roller" or "ball" type. The manual does not say "oilite", but "oiless". I don't know exactly what the difference is, if any. I have always oiled these bearings during operation, and kept the cups full when operating the machine. It still has the original bearings, I have removed the spindle once. I loosened the cap screws to make sure the spindle would come out easy. My belt went bad (imagine, a v-belt only lasting less than 50 years!). I wish that I knew about link-belts then! I have noticed (and I believe other people have too) that the right hand cup needs oil often, while the left hand one does not. Leo (pearland, tx) ------- From: "Rob Peterson" harpyx~xxavenuecable.com Date: Sat May 20, 2006 3:25pm(PDT) Subject: Re: Spindle Bearing cup remove/install In atlas618lathe, "tooljunkie3j" wrote: > I tried a search-bearing cup removal and spindle bearing cup removal- > maybe I should have put race instead of cup.... When I was restoring my 618 I had to replace the Gits oilers as the headstock didn't have any when I got it. I got a damaged headstock which had the oilers in it (along with the headstock cover which is what I got it for in the first place). I just used a small dent puller to pull the oilers out of the headstock. Worked like a charm. To install I opened the oiler top and put a piece of Oak onto the "stem". Tap, tap tap and into the headstock it went. Simple. RP ------- Bearings for head stock [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: "kevin_smith322" kevin_smith322x~xxyahoo.com Date: Thu Jul 6, 2006 3:15 pm (PDT) I have a 1936 model. Is it hard to upgrade from the babbit bearing set up to the timkin bearings? What is needed? I read that this was available as a option in 1936. ------- Re: Bearings for head stock Posted by: "xlch58x~xxswbell.net" xlch58x~xxswbell.net Date: Thu Jul 6, 2006 3:55 pm (PDT) You basically replace the whole headstock and chuck the one you have. If the bearings aren't worn, I would personally run it like it is. They will weep some oil, which gets newbies all excited, but once you actually use a lathe you figure out that the whole damn lathe is designed to not just weep a little oil here and there, but to sling it into every corner of your shop. Actually not quite that bad, but the ways need regular oiling, the gears need to be oiled, carriage, tailstock ram, lead screw, all of which are open and will drip a little here and there. Chuck up a stout bar and see what sort of deflection you are getting in the SPINDLE bearings. I emphasize that since wear in the chuck can add to the deflection you see. If there is none, run it till there is, then figure out if you want to replace it or just repair the babbit bearings. I'm betting that if they are solid now, you won't wear them out in a hobby shop in your lifetime if you keep them oiled. Some of them get toasted I think because people mistake the dried oil encrusted bit of cotton that is a filter in the oil cap for grease. They then add more grease which doesn't reach the bearings till the whole assembly gets really hot, which only happens when you are wearing the crap out of it for lack of lubrication. One quick fix that I tell newbies that are worried about the accuracy of their old lathe is to make chips with it. For some reason, old lathes tend to get more and more accurate the more chips you make with them. After you fill three or four 2lb coffee cans with chips, it will be at its peak and you can judge what needs replacing, repairing or whatnot at that point. Charles ------- Re: Bearings for head stock Posted by: "Richard McCune" richmccunex~xxsbcglobal.net Date: Thu Jul 6, 2006 6:08 pm (PDT) I have used lathes with both types of spindle bearings. I personally think that good babbit bearings are much smoother than the Timken bearings. My lathe is a babbit model and it cuts very well, nice smooth finish. If the babbit is really worn you can shim it with some shim stock. They make shim stock down to .001" thick. ------- Re: Bearings for head stock Posted by: "speedphoto300" speedphoto300x~xxyahoo.com Date: Thu Jul 6, 2006 6:20 pm (PDT) Someone asked me once "I bought this XXX lathe, how accurate is it?". My reponse was "depends, how accurate are you?. Mine has a roller bearing headstock, weeps oil just fine. Solid bearing machines are very smooth, the well regarded South Bend 9 and 10 inch machines for example. Joe ------- Re: Bearings for head stock Posted by: "Dave Mucha" dave_muchax~xxyahoo.com Date: Thu Jul 6, 2006 9:45 pm (PDT) > you figure out that the whole damn lathe is designed to not just weep > a little oil here and there, but to sling it into every corner of > your shop. It is probably the most efficent method of keeping all your tools well oiled. I keep drip pans on mine and use that waste oil with a rag to wipe down the other tools. > After you fill three or four 2lb coffee cans with chips coffee cans ? On the last table, I had a hole with a 30 gallon trash can underneath; darn thing kept getting filled up with that really loose swarf. Now, I keep a baking tray under to catch the big stuff, and jamb the loose stuff into plastic trashbags. Well, usually into a 5 gallon bucket and mash it down with a 2x4, then put that into the plastic. The great thing about the baking tray is that it is easy to pull out when good bits fall into it. As far as the bearings go, I put an indicator on the headstock, with the needle on the chuck. If you can lift up any more than a couple thou, you have a need for fixing something. Dave ------- Re: Bearings for head stock Posted by: "Dave Mucha" dave_muchax~xxyahoo.com Date: Thu Jul 6, 2006 9:48 pm (PDT) I think the old oil film gets replaced with new oil, and that fills in the gaps better and tightens things up. On my SB, babbit bearings, the manual says that at low speeds to use a heavier oil, at high speeds a lighter oil. Seems the heat expands and the lighter oil does not get in the way as easily. I use all synthetic oil now. It seems to offer the best protection to the metal bits everywhere. Dave ------- Re: Bearings for head stock Posted by: "mertbaker" MertBakerx~xxprodigy.net Date: Thu Jul 6, 2006 11:30 pm (PDT) > Re; " For some reason, old lathes tend to get more and > more accurate the more chips you make with them." Are you sure it's old lathes & not old machinists? Mert MertBakerx~xxverizon.net ------- Re: how to remove the spindle gear on the qc42 [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: "Glenn N" sleykinx~xxcharter.net Date: Tue Jul 18, 2006 10:03 pm (PDT) Original Message From: sherwood shute Sent: Tuesday, July 18, 2006 > i was just going to remove the big wide gear on the spindle and flip it over and reinstall it since only one side of the gear looked bad now i see that one of the teeth is broken all the way across so i fiugure it must be replaced-how to remove it?thinking about cutting it thin at the keyway with the dremel then whack it with a cold chisel-anyone got a replacement gear handy?-sherwood < No choppy choppy whack whack on lathe spindles prese? http://www.atlas-press.com/tb_12bg.htm#REMOVING%20HEADSTOCK%20SPINDLE REMOVING HEADSTOCK SPINDLE (Necessary for replacing spindle belt or bearings) (Refer to Figure 1) 1. Disengage back gears. 2. Loosen set screw in collar B and remove collar by turning anti- clockwise. Beneath set screw is a small thread protector. Do not lose it when collar is removed. 3. Loosen set screws in collar L, and large spindle gear D. 4. Slide spindle gear M from spindle. If gear sticks, tap lightly with a piece of wood and a hammer. 5. Remove key N from spindle with a pair of pliers. Slide flanged collar O off spindle. 6. Wedge two pieces of wood between head and large spindle gear D on both sides of spindle. 7. Place a piece of wood against left end of spindle and drive it in direction indicated by arrow until key P emerges from large spindle gear D. 8. Remove the wood wedges and remove key P with pair of pliers. 9. Drive spindle entirely out of headstock in direction of arrow. BE SURE TO CATCH THE SPINDLE AS IT IS RELEASED FROM THE HEADSTOCK. It is not necessary to remove spindle entirely if replacing belt only on horizontal countershaft lathes. Much more happy for lathe to do right ;) Glenn ------- Re: how to remove the spindle gear on the qc42 Posted by: "Glenn N" sleykinx~xxcharter.net Date: Wed Jul 19, 2006 5:15 pm (PDT) > thanks-so when i put the gear back on i should put a dial indicator > on the chuck and check freeplay???sherwood NO. SPINDLE ADJUSTMENTS 1. Slide collar L against shoulder of spindle and lock in place. Move pulley-gear assembly against collar and slide large spindle gear D against pulley and tighten set screw in gear. There should be a slight amount of clearance between the pulley and the large spindle gear to permit pulley to turn freely. 2. Tighten collar B until all lateral (end) and radial (side) play has been removed from spindle. Check by tapping spindle back and forth with the hand. Do not tighten too tightly -- spindle should rotate freely. 3. Pre-load spindle bearings by continuing to tighten the threaded collar B approximately 1/16" turn (equivalent to two spindle gear teeth). There should be a slight drag felt as the spindle is rotated by hand. This is important because as spindle and bearings warm up, the spindle expands laterally approximately .002". Tighten set screw in collar B. ------- Timken bearing seat removal on 4800 [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: "Lucas Thompson" Lucas.Thompsonx~xxwatchguard.com Date: Tue Jul 25, 2006 10:37 am (PDT) Hello group. I'm working on my Atlas 4800 / Clausing 100 mk3a and decided to replace the spindle bearings. I couldn't get a clean cut on it at all where I could get very nice cuts on my little Atlas 10 using the exact same tools. And the runout measurement was really wobbly like some of the rollers had flat spots. And it was noisy while running. I've got the spindle out now, but can't figure out the procedure to remove the timken bearing seats (working on the one nearest to the chuck first). There doesn't seem to be a place to get behind it to grab. I've thought about three ways to do it: 1- MIG weld threaded rods to opposing sides of the bearing face to use as a puller to get it out. I could do this without damaging anything else. 2- Drill two small opposing holes in the back side of the headstock casting where the bearing seat is and tap it out with a drift punch. Headstock is left with holes. This doesn't seem to be a good option. 3- Use a small wedge in behind the seat and lever against the headstock casting to drive the wedge in and the seat out. This may be possible, but I'm worried about damaging the headstock casting so that the replacement bearing seat won't sit in it correctly. It's fairly thin around that area. Anyone done this already? Thanks in advance. ------- Re: Timken bearing seat removal on 4800 Posted by: "Brad Heiter" heiterx~xxintnet.net Date: Tue Jul 25, 2006 11:18 am (PDT) I've had good luck by just welding a bead all the way around the inner surface of the bearing race. When it cools down it just slides out. Brad ------- Re: Timken bearing seat removal on 4800 Posted by: "speedphoto300" speedphoto300x~xxyahoo.com Date: Tue Jul 25, 2006 12:20 pm (PDT) Since you have the spindle out, have you checked the bearings to make sure they are really bad? I've seen incorrect preload cause problems far more often than bad bearings. Joe ------ Timken bearing seat removal on 4800 Posted by: "Bob Scogin" bscoginx~xxbellsouth.net Date: Tue Jul 25, 2006 1:57 pm (PDT) I've had very good luck removing bearing cups from various types of machinery, wheel hubs, etc by just welding a bead around the inside of the race. This will shrink it, and when it cools it can be pulled out by hand. Bob ------- Re: Timken bearing seat removal on 4800 Posted by: "Lucas Thompson" Lucas.Thompsonx~xxwatchguard.com Date: Tue Jul 25, 2006 2:40 pm (PDT) They have shiny spots on the rollers like I've seen on failing automotive ones. I'm not sure exactly how else to check them? I played around with the preload a little but I think it was adjusted OK to begin with. I adjusted it the same way on the 4800 and the TH48. The TH48 came out a lot better. The lathe seems to have been dropped or otherwise crashed more than once before judging from some of the previously fixed damage -- the block that holds the headstock to the bed was in two pieces when I got it! Sounds like welding around the race is the way to do it, thanks for all the advice. ------ Re: Timken bearing seat removal on 4800 Posted by: "Glenn N" sleykinx~xxcharter.net Date: Thu Jul 27, 2006 3:33 pm (PDT) >>Since you have the spindle out, have you checked the bearings to make >>sure they are really bad? I've seen incorrect preload cause problems >>far more often than bad bearings. Joe JAMES BLACKETT wrote: >I have had a 10" Atlas for some time now, originally I stripped it down >and reassembled and all is fine, however I see a note on preloading the >timken bearings. I have just used my mechanical "feel" for pre load. >Is there a laid down proceedure and where could I find it? Obviously it >would be better to have the correct preload. I loaded the bearings until >I had a nice feel to the rotation and then had to do a bit more to get it >to cut nicely. Too much would damage the bearings and maybe more, so any >info would be useful, thanks Jamesb (UK) You might like this one. Your specific question is covered along with many others. http://www.atlas-press.com/servicebulletins.htm ------- Re: Timken bearing seat removal on 4800 Posted by: "Lucas Thompson" Lucas.Thompsonx~xxwatchguard.com Date: Thu Jul 27, 2006 4:18 pm (PDT) Got the rest of the bearings out fine by welding bolts on opposite sides and tapping from the back. I didn't want to get in there with the OA torch without preheating the cast iron parts and the MIG didn't put out enough heat, so I didn't really try the shrinking trick. Even found an online supplier, bearings.com and the replacements were only about 35 bucks for all 4 parts. Are there any tricks to seating the new ones properly? Just tap them in and go? ------- Re: Timken bearing seat removal on 4800 Posted by: "LouD31M066x~xxaol.com" Date: Thu Jul 27, 2006 4:49 pm (PDT) Clean out all crud and varnish and lightly oil so new bearings will go in with minimum of fuss. Bearing race fit tight so they will not turn. Install bearing races using a threaded rod, washers and nuts. Bearing cones can be installed on spindle using similar non impact method. Bearings do not like dirt, fingerprints, moisture and hammers. They like clean oil, proper preload and moderate temperature and humidity range. Bearings are the most precise and easily damaged parts of any machine, yet, with proper care and wise use they can give more years of service than several owners can ask for. Louis ------ Re: Making a spindle from 1144 (vs. 4130/4140) [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: "Rob Peterson" harpyx~xxavenuecable.com Date: Wed Sep 20, 2006 2:32 pm (PDT) "Wally Blackburn" wrote: >I am thinking of making a spindle for my Atlas mill and I'm going to >try 1144 stressproof. I may/may not try case-hardening key areas. >Easier to machine, but also less warping issues than 4130. Any thoughts? Wally, I made a "temporary" spindle for my Atlas lathe from 4130 and had no problems with warping. I still have to make a permanent spindle to replace the "temporary" one and in preparation for that I replaced the bushings in the headstock last week with new ones. I pulled the spindle completely as I wanted to see what wear (if any) had occurred. I was surprised to see that the unhardened 4130 hadn't worn at all. Yeah, it was shiney in the bushing areas (as compared to the satin polish elsewhere) but no measurable wear. The lathe has about 100 hrs on it since the spindle was put in with the old bushings. I still have to make the permanent one as the temporary one is a tad undersize and the woodruff key slots are a little sloppy. The temp spindle is still solid (no through-hole) but I will bore the new one once it's in the headstock. Upshot is that I do not think you need to harden the spindle in order to get good wearlife. The key to long life is clean oil. I know nothing about 1144 so can't comment there. RP ------- Drill Rod that may be easily machined... [sherline] Posted by: "Gregg Swanson" Gregg.Swansonx~xxmicrosoft.com Date: Tue Feb 13, 2007 11:54 am ((PST)) Hello, I am mulling over building a Caustic tester, this is a device that is similar to a Foucault tester. Link - http://www.atm-workshop.com/tl-caustic.html One of the key components will be a carriage that slides on two rods. Drill Rod is used because I believe that is smooth. So my question is what grade of Drill Rod do I want to purchase - I have to drill a couple of holes into the Rod and may decided to put a flat on each end. The reference "model" that I am basing my design on uses 1/2 inch rod; the rod will probably be less than 18 inches. I will be using my Sherline Mill to drill the holes and machine the flats if required. Do I want to use Grade A2 drill rod? Thanks, Gregg ------- Re: Drill Rod that may be easily machined... Posted by: "Jerry G" chieftoolmakerx~xxearthlink.net shipmodelmaker1931 Date: Tue Feb 13, 2007 12:13 pm ((PST)) Hi Gregg: If I had to build that, I would not use drill rod at all. My recommendation is to use "Thompson Ball Bushings" for the bearings and "60 Case" for the guide rods. Since the "60 Case" are case hardened rods, you can grind the flats you need, and after you break through the M & M shell, do the drilling. Excellent way to achieve linear motion. I have built many a machine using those bearings, etc. You can make your own housings or buy them. Later, Jerry G (Glickstein) ------- Re: New member, and a bearing question [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: "LouD31M066x~xxaol.com" Date: Wed Feb 6, 2008 1:26 pm ((PST)) Couple things to bear in mind: 1) Be sure the bearings are at fault before removing... a) remove wick from spindle oilers and flush with WD40 or similar solvent to remove any varnish and crud, then reoil with 20 wt nondetergent; b) clean wick material with solvent, reinstall and oil (replace with new wick material if it can not be cleaned); c) read the instruction about setting preload then confirm that yours are properly adjusted. Bearings that are rough or "catch" or are noisy probably need replacement so read and follow the instructions for removal. If one bearing is worn out, likely the other is as well, however, do not assume check...it is possible something got into one bearing and ruined it...when removing a bearing keep in mind it is just possible it is good enough to reuse... read up on do's and don'ts of bearing removal/installation. After you have removed the bearings and races wash them with clean solvent or WD40 and inspect carefully. Spinning dry with compressed air will ruin the bearing as well as pose a hazard if the bearing breaks up and scatters. It is a false economy to mix old and new parts in the same bearing assembly. You will have to make some simple tooling in order to properly remove and replace spindle bearings...specifically washers (large diameter) turned to a just-right size to enable you to use a nut and a threaded rod to apply force to remove and install races in headstock casting. Can be done easily on a lathe and with some work using drill and file...might be best to turn to close to size before shutting down lathe for repair. Louis ------- Re: headstock bearings [atlas618lathe] Posted by: "krisyow" krisyowx~xxyahoo.com Date: Sun May 10, 2009 10:43 am ((PDT)) In a message dated Sat May 9, 2009, tamartin55 writes: > How do you tell, if the headstock bearings are babbit or bronze ?? This article: http://personal.atl.bellsouth.net/t/h/thib9564/Atlas_Lathe_FAQ.htm is written for the larger lathe but there are pictures that show exactly what you are looking for, i.e. the difference in the Babbitt and Timken equipped headstock (look for the section titled "Determining the Type of Headstock Bearings in Your Lathe - (Added 12/10/1998)". There is a bunch of other info on there, worth reading. Basically, as someone previously mentioned, there will be one or two screws on top of the spindle that allow for the Babbit to be replaced. On a Timken type of bearing, there are no screws, the spindle is removed from the front usually, by removing a set screw and collar on the outboard side of the spindle. This is the general rule, unless someone modified your machine in the past. Hope this helps, Kris ------- Re: headstock bearings Posted by: "anthrhodesx~xxaol.com" Date: Sun May 10, 2009 9:06 pm ((PDT)) Tom? If your question is specifically related to the Atlas-built 6" lathes, they were only ever supplied with oilite bronze or Timken taper roller bearings. Roller bearings you should be able to identify without problems. If they are not roller bearings they are supposed to be oilite bearings. That's not to suggest that somebody could not have replaced them with common bronze bearings or even have poured babbit, but what I've stated above is to the best of my knowledge. Additionally, to the best of my knowledge, only early Craftsman versions had oilite bearings. Later Craftsman and all Atlas badged 6" lathes used Timken bearings. Hope this is helpful. Anthony Berkeley, Calif. ------- How tight to make the spindle [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: "scubanarc" scubanarcx~xxgmail.com Date: Fri Apr 16, 2010 10:05 am ((PDT)) Hey guys, After removing and cleaning up the spindle in a 101.07403 I'm reading to reassemble using the instructions Bill provided about 2 months ago. What I am wondering is once I get the whole assembly back together, how do I know how tight to make it? How do you press the timken's into their races just the right amount? Thanks for any advice. Jason ------- Re: How tight to make the spindle Posted by: "Scott Henion" shenionx~xxshdesigns.org Date: Fri Apr 16, 2010 10:08 am ((PDT)) It is described here: http://www.atlas-press.com/tb_12bg.htm#SPINDLE%20ADJUSTMENTS Scott G. Henion Craftsman 12x36 lathe: http://shdesigns.org/Craftsman12x36 ------- Re: How tight to make the spindle Posted by: "Bill Stietenroth" k5ztyx~xxjuno.com Date: Fri Apr 16, 2010 12:59 pm ((PDT)) Hey Jason, You're about to have a lathe again! If you removed the front cone part of the Timken from the spindle, getting it pressed completely back onto the spindle is the trick. If you have a press of some kind you can press the cone back onto the spindle before you put it back together. If you can't press it, you can bump it on with a soft face hammer by dropping the spindle into a piece of pipe whose ID is larger than the spindle and smaller than the small cone race. Using a soft face hammer, bump the spindle into the bearing by hitting on the spindle nose and watching to make sure it is started on straight. Be sure that you put the cone on the spindle the right way and drive it all the way on. No space between the bearing and the front shoulder of the spindle. There should be no other slack in the assembly when you thread the spindle through the housing, gears and pulley. Those things just sit on the spindle and don't affect the adjustment. Now just tighten the threaded collar on the back of the spindle (which pulls the back cone into place) until all the slack is out and you can't feel any end play if you bump it back and forth with your soft face hammer, then turn the nut a few more degrees until you just feel a very slight drag as you turn it by hand. Tighten the set screw. Done. Good luck, Bill ------- oiling bearings [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: "rob macdonald" robbiemac947x~xxsbcglobal.net Date: Sun Apr 25, 2010 6:31 am ((PDT)) Hi all, When I got my TH42 it wouldn't take oil in the spindle cups until I pulled the wicks. When I installed a new belt, I siliconed the bearing shields and let excess oil run into a small pan. The bearings really don't need much and the shields keep the lower part in oil. I had to have a new countershaft made as mine was destroyed by the PO. Maybe it's not right,bbut I put in zerk fittings. Much easier and efficient.You do have to be careful not to overdo it with the grease gun. My wall has a lovely stripe from too much grease! Robbie ------- Re: oiling bearings Posted by: "bill phelps" sweetwaterent2000x~xxyahoo.com Date: Sun Apr 25, 2010 6:59 am ((PDT)) The problem with grease is that it will get dirt and filings in it and not get flushed out as the bearing shields do not fit tight on the spindle. The bearings were set up to be flushed by oil, you do not use wicks with timkin bearings. You want the oil to flush the bearings out all the time. The outer shield is a oil dam that holds the proper amount of oil. I would not use grease in them. ------- Re: oiling bearings Posted by: "Bill Stietenroth" k5ztyx~xxjuno.com Date: Sun Apr 25, 2010 10:07 am ((PDT)) I replaced the brass bushings in my counter shaft bracket a while back with Oilite bronze. You can buy them ready made to the correct size from McMaster-Carr. Oilite bronze is porous and absorbs oil. When the bearing gets warm during use, the bronze give up oil to lube the running shaft; when it cools, it re-absorbs the oil, thus the term "permanently lubricated". It ain't permanent, but you don't have to oil it very often. I also don't use motor oil, I use turbine oil, a paraffin based, high temperature, light clear oil similar to sewing machine oil or 3 n 1 oil. Fractional horsepower electric motors use these bearings and oil and they are high speed, 1100 to 3400 rpm, and they carry a load, belt driven fans, tools etc. Why would your counter shaft need any more lube than the motor? Why have an oil or grease slinging mess in the shop? Bill in Houston ------- Re: oiling bearings Posted by: "dougrl3x~xxaol.com" dougrl3x~xxaol.com Date: Sun Apr 25, 2010 11:09 am ((PDT)) Can you please advise of the part number from Mcmaster-Carr that you had ordered or the size for those bearings. Thanks Doug ------- Re: oiling bearings Posted by: "Bill Stietenroth" k5ztyx~xxjuno.com Date: Sun Apr 25, 2010 12:13 pm ((PDT)) I don't recall off hand and my counter shaft may not be exactly the same as yours but I'll tell you how to find them yourself. Measure the O.D. of your counter shaft, the O.D. of the sleeve bearing in the casting and the length of the sleeve in the casting. They are U.S. standard measure sizes,(3/4" X 1" X 7/8" etc.); you don't have to mic them. Go to http://www.mcmaster.com/#sleeve-bearings/=6teyi2 You want the S.A.E. 841 Bronze which is called Oilite. Now follow the choices: select inch measure, then shaft size (ID of the bearing), OD of the bearing and length of the bearing, how many you want, price pops up in left hand column, Done. I also replaced all the sleeves in my QCGB with these bearings. Bill ------- bearings or bushes - lathe backgear design [mlathemods] Posted by: "Des Bromilow" desbromilowx~xxyahoo.com Date: Wed Jun 23, 2010 6:43 pm ((PDT)) G'Day, I'm building some backgears for my lathe (taig) and am at the point where I need to decide between bearings or bushes for the bearings in the system. I can (and most likely will) use a ball bearing under the wide end of the pulley cone, but at the small end (with the small backgear gear) I will be hard pressed to fit a bearing unless it's a needle set in there -- I can go bigger if I use a bigger gear, but that reduces the back gear ratio (currently designed at 16:1.... 120T bullgear with 30T on the cone) I suspect the low use and low speed of the backgear will mean a bush will be OK, but I'm hoping someone with a more mechanical background might be able to point out anything I've missed. My concern with needle bearings is the lubrication aspect -- I've designed an access/ lubrication point in the cone pulley for spindle keying, but I worry the needle bearing may not get the oil as easily as a bush due to the inner race shape. I estimate I'll have around 6mm (1/4") at most for the narrow bearing/bush between the spindle outer diameter, and the inner diameter of the pulley cone. Thanks, Des Oz ------- Re: bearings or bushes - lathe back gear design Posted by: "Neil Butterfield" neilbfieldx~xxcox.net Date: Wed Jun 23, 2010 7:15 pm ((PDT)) Des, you are correct, "the low use and low speed of the back gear will mean a bush will be OK." Don't even give it a second thought, purchase an "oilite" bronze bushing -- they are impregnated with oil -- for $1 or $2. It will last you a lifetime and then some. Improve on it by drilling a small oil hole in the housing to squirt oil into and further impregnate the bushing. You will have a very smooth running shaft similar to the old Babbitt bearing machines that started the industrial revolution. They ran smoother than our ball bearings of today. Any good industrial supply house or bearing supply should have bronze, oil impregnated bushing in all sizes. "Oilite" was a brand name I believe. Good luck. Neil ------- Re: bearings or bushes - lathe back gear design Posted by: "Corey Renner" vandal968x~xxgmail.com Date: Wed Jun 23, 2010 7:56 pm ((PDT)) Bushings will be more than adequate. My Southbend lathe used all bushings (no ball bearings anywhere) and this was a production machine, even had a Department of Defense war production emblem on it. Putting ball-bearings on everything is a modern phenomenon. cheers, c ------- Re: bearings or bushes - lathe backgear design Posted by: "James Early" j.w.earlyx~xxworldnet.att.net Date: Thu Jun 24, 2010 6:17 am ((PDT)) Back gears should always use bronze sleeve bearings as ball or needle bearings do not have the strength to take the side loads present there! JWE Long Beach, CA ------- Re: bearings or bushes - lathe backgear design Posted by: "David Halfpenny gmail" davidhalfpennyx~xxgmail.com Date: Thu Jun 24, 2010 1:14 pm ((PDT)) That's a fair point James, reinforced by the fact that the intermittent load from the gears could damage the races if it exceeded their yield point* but surely exactly the same side loads act on the lathe spindle? (* It's often called Brinelling after the guy who invented a test in which you force a ball bearing into the metal and measure the width of the dent caused to check yield strength.) The traditional back-geared lathes of my youth all had plain bearings on the spindle too. David 1/2d ------- Re: bearings or bushes - lathe backgear design Posted by: "James Early" j.w.earlyx~xxworldnet.att.net Date: Thu Jun 24, 2010 2:06 pm ((PDT)) David I am becoming very disenchanted with ball bearing spindles on small lathes. I am in the process of cutting back to just my South Bend and one 7x10 for light work. I will be posting all the other lathes and at least one mill for sale in the next few months because of this difference in quality between a sleeve bearing lathe and a ball bearing one. With sleeve bearings on the spindle, the surface finish of the parts is so much superior it is unreal and dimensionally the sleeve bearing lathe is also far superior to any ball bearing spindle lathe I have ever used. The one 7x machine that I will be keeping I will be experimenting with fitting it for sleeve bearings also in place of the ball bearing ones in there now. JWE Long Beach, CA ------- Re: bearings or bushes - lathe backgear design Posted by: "Corey Renner" vandal968x~xxgmail.com Date: Thu Jun 24, 2010 2:15 pm ((PDT)) James, before I got rid of my 7x12 lathes entirely, I converted one to tapered roller bearings. This made a big difference in surface finish and especially parting performance. Still no comparison to a "real" lathe though. cheers, c ------- Re: bearings or bushes - lathe backgear design Posted by: "David Halfpenny gmail" davidhalfpennyx~xxgmail.com Date: Thu Jun 24, 2010 4:32 pm ((PDT)) The deflection on a pre-loaded taper roller bearings is a lot smaller than on a mere ballrace. A plain bearing not only has very high stiffness, it has a certain amount of hydraulic damping as well which cuts vibration even more. The low budget Myford ML10 didn't even have sleeves - the spindle ran in the cast iron headstock, and without wear when properly lubricated. Myford say it can do just as good work as their flagship model. David ------- Re: bearings or bushes - lathe backgear design Posted by: "James Early" j.w.earlyx~xxworldnet.att.net Date: Thu Jun 24, 2010 4:39 pm ((PDT)) Which is why I will be converting the one machine I will be keeping to bushing from bearing for better finish jobs like my SB provides. JWE Long Beach, CA ------- Re: bearings or bushes - lathe backgear design Posted by: "Des Bromilow" desbromilowx~xxyahoo.com Date: Fri Jun 25, 2010 2:04 am ((PDT)) Anthony, I've already built a leadscrew and halfnut onto the Taig lathe, and the back gear will be predominantly used for that, and increasing the torque when needed. The 120T bull wheel is simply because the 60T is too small in Module 1 (my preferred gear size for the other wheels in this project (change, etc) and I figure the 120T will be ideal for direct indexing of the spindle (60T was my preferred option). I hadn't ever really researched the backgear ratios, so it's interesting to see that my instinctive option was so high - I'll be less concerned now about making the smaller gear a little bigger if it helps my design - 40T will grant me some lattitude in securing to the pulley easier. Thanks Des ------- Re: bearings or bushes - lathe backgear design Posted by: "anthrhodesx~xxaol.com" Date: Thu Jun 24, 2010 9:02 am ((PDT)) Des, No complaint with the advice from others that bushings would be satisfactory, but there is a question regarding the extreme reduction ratio. Back gear ratios typically run from less than 4:1 up to the 7:1 or 8:1 range. I don't think I've ever heard of one as much as 10:1 except for a few V-e-r-y Large "double geared" lathes which have two back gear ratios. The Taig is a small lathe and it's hard to imagine it ever needing the reduction for increase of torque at the spindle. Generally there are three reasons for speed reduction in a lathe. First is to slow down the action to have better control, especially when threading or using power feed. I believe the Taig normally doesn't have power feed and is rarely used for threading but I can't argue with one's individual choices in terms of being comfortable with the control issue. Second is to accommodate surface speed for cutting. I'm under the impression that the normal range of speeds available on the Taig is adequate for the purpose on the sizes of materials for which it's intended to be used. The third is to increase torque to be able to cut large diameter pieces or hard to machine materials. Large diameter doesn't seem to apply but hard to machine might. If you seriously still want to fit a back gear I suggest that less reduction might be acceptable. It sounds as if you are gearing 30:120 x 30:120 for 1:16. If 1:11 would be acceptable you could change the first set of gears to 40:110. If 1:9 would be acceptable you could change both sets of gears to 40:120. In each case increasing the small gear from 30 to 40 would provide more room for whatever bearings you eventually install. Just some thoughts. It would be interesting to see photos or drawings of your project. Good luck with it. Anthony Berkeley, Calif. ------- Re: bearings or bushes - lathe backgear design Posted by: "Flash Gordon" eschwerkoltx~xxroadrunner.com Date: Tue Jun 29, 2010 8:49 pm ((PDT)) James Early wrote: > David I am becoming very disenchanted with ball bearing spindles on small lathes. .... The one 7x machine that I will be keeping I will be experimenting with fitting it for sleeve bearings also in place of the ball bearing ones in there now. JWE Long Beach, CA < Hello. Two problems to beware of when using solid bearings. One the spindle shaft will need to be micro-polished to get any time out of it. Two the top speed is reduced. A 9" SB with solid bearings should not be run over 1000 rpm. And it has to have a constant oil supply, you keep adding it as it leaks out the ends of the spindle and wipe it off the walls and floor and ceiling. There is no magic bullet.. trade speed... needed for carbide insert cutters or better finish at slower speeds. I have a 7x10 and a 9" SB so I am covered. Ed ------- Need to get my bearings. [sherline] Posted by: "mechanicleez" mechanicleezx~xxyahoo.com Date: Fri Jul 9, 2010 5:40 pm ((PDT)) I've had a Sherline 5500 milling machine for over 10 years but have used it, in what would amount to less than 6 months time, since getting the machine. Now the headstock bearing (one underneath the headstock pulley) seems to want to seize. I initially noticed the headstock and motor getting really warm, quickly. I wrote it off as being part of using the machine for awhile. I don't understand how and why is the bearing slowing down, as I never used the machine to warrant the bearing to wear or seize. I am now working on a project that is ongoing (for the first time) but even still, the machine should not be doing this, right? I use it to cut aluminum, at full speed on the motor controller, when I'm done with a pass, I turn the speed down fast until the motor stops move the Z axis and turn the motor control all the way up and these steps are repeated until the project's done. Could doing this be the culprit cutting the life short on my mill? Ideally I'd like to replace the race bearings, with Timken angled roller bearings of the same size and type bearings. If so, how would I go about it? and what type is comparable/compatable to Sherline size? Most importantly is it possible? please help someone! ------- Re: Need to get my bearings. Posted by: "Rich Dean" toolman8x~xxcopper.net Date: Fri Jul 9, 2010 7:23 pm ((PDT)) 10 years is a lot to ask of bearing lubrication to last. Perhaps the two ball bearings are dried out. Sherline sells new bearings, however you may be able to reconstitute the old lube by adding a few drops of machine oil. Remove the pulley and the bottom cover plate. Clean away any chips and dust. With the spindle vertical, place a few drops of oil around the bearing inner race/shield gap and work the spindle back and forth. The oil should work its way into the bearing by capillary action. If the bearings are sticky, this will free them up soon. Do the same to the lower bearing with the headstock inverted. If in the course of this you feel any grittiness or lumpy rotation, even a tendency to momentarily lock up, the bearing(s) are contaminated. New bearings are then in order. If the bearings are now free and smooth, hook up the belt and spin at half speed for several minutes. Over lubrication will produced a ticking sound, but this will go away as the excess oil is drained off. Wipe it down and replace the end cap and pulley and you're good to go. Good luck, RichD ------- NOTE TO FILE: The following conversation in atlas618lathe started with the subject "spindle" and drifted into "spindle drawing" with various folks using either message title; so they are gathered together here. There are also some good tips about different steel alloys and their suitability for making a spindle or similar part. ------- spindle [atlas618lathe] Posted by: "Rich" rgarzottox~xxcomcast.net Date: Fri Sep 3, 2010 8:01 pm ((PDT)) I posted some new pics of the spindles I am making Now these are custom parts so they are made to suit. The spindle for the 101.21400 has a 1-8 thread on the nose not the 1-10. Thanks for looking; anyone with questions, let me know. I have good drawings for both. Rich ------- Re: spindle drawing [atlas618lathe] Posted by: "n2irz" donrotolox~xxoptimum.net Date: Fri Sep 3, 2010 9:11 pm ((PDT)) Rich: Thank you for posting those photos of your spindle fabrication. Fascinating. I have what might seem like a dumb/beginner's question: Why do you mount a job like that between centers instead of using the chuck? I don't have a faceplate for my 618 and so have never used one, but my best guess is that a center is a lot more accurate than a chuck. Is that the correct answer? Thanks in advance, Don ------- Re: spindle drawing Posted by: "EdwinB" n5kzwx~xxarrl.net Date: Sat Sep 4, 2010 7:15 am ((PDT)) Don, the main advantage of mounting the work between centers is that you can remove the part from the lathe and put it back again, knowing that the part will still be centered. 73, Ed ------- Re: spindle drawing Posted by: "David Beierl" dbeierlx~xxattglobal.net Date: Sat Sep 4, 2010 9:59 am ((PDT)) You also can't do offset-tailstock work without using centers, or use your steady rest on a piece of stock that's bent or kinked. As to the no faceplate -- it's the one work-holding fixture that's supplied with every lathe. Chucks are optional accessories. Not having a faceplate very much restricts your ability to hold irregular work as well as eliminating the possibility of using centers. Yours, David Beierl -- Providence RI USA Atlas 618 6"/3/index.html" lathe ca. 1941, shiny-new Taig mill. ------- Re: spindle drawing Posted by: "Dean" deanwx~xxbmi.net Date: Sat Sep 4, 2010 3:08 pm ((PDT)) Besides being able to remove and replace the workpiece and know it will be perfectly on center each time, you can also swap ends and expect it to be concentric. For turning long things, like this spindle or shafting, between centers is almost always the preferred way. ------- Re: spindle Posted by: "n1ltv" n1ltvx~xxyahoo.com Date: Sat Sep 4, 2010 12:35 pm ((PDT)) > I posted some new pics of the spindles I am making. Rich: Nice work with the spindles and thank you very much for sharing the pictures with us. I'll have a question or two for you after the holiday. Hank ------- Re: spindle Posted by: "Dean" deanwx~xxbmi.net Date: Sat Sep 4, 2010 3:16 pm ((PDT)) Rich, it's looking great. Good job. What material did you use.. 1144? Dean ------- Re: spindle Posted by: "Rich" rgarzottox~xxcomcast.net Date: Sat Sep 4, 2010 5:24 pm ((PDT)) I used A-7 tool steel for this one the rest that I have made are just 1018 mild steel. I test fit the spindle in 21400 head stock today. The fit was good and there was no runout. When I get all together I will put the tenths indicator on it and see what it really is. I posted some pics of the test fit in the same folder. Rich ------- Re: spindle Posted by: "Dean" deanwx~xxbmi.net Date: Sat Sep 4, 2010 9:11 pm ((PDT)) So, you reckon the 1018 will stay straight when you cut the keys? Dean ------- Re: spindle Posted by: "Mike Nicewonger" twmasterx~xxtwmaster.com Date: Sun Sep 5, 2010 6:49 am ((PDT)) > So, you reckon the 1018 will stay straight when you cut the keys? 1144 Stressproof is perhaps a better choice? Mike N ------- Re: spindle Posted by: "Rich" rgarzottox~xxcomcast.net Date: Sun Sep 5, 2010 1:45 pm ((PDT)) Yes I do. Why do you ask? I had the lab at work check a smaple of an old no good spindle that I had and it was not really any better then regular 1018 steel. Rich -------- Re: spindle Posted by: "Dean" deanwx~xxbmi.net Date: Sun Sep 5, 2010 2:25 pm ((PDT)) I ask because 1018 is not stress relieved, and has a tendency to move (warp) when it is cut non-concentric. For instance, if you cut a flat on the side of a piece of 1018 shafting, it will tend to bend toward the side that has not been cut. Just to be clear on my part, what I asked wasn't meant as a criticism. It was just a question. I don't mean to say that 1018 is not strong enough. I wondered if it was stable enough. Steels like 1144, or round tool steel in its non-hardened state are more stable in a dimensional respect. Dean ------- Re: spindle Posted by: "Rich" rgarzottox~xxcomcast.net Date: Sun Sep 5, 2010 4:03 pm ((PDT)) Yes the material will be stable even after cutting. I just looked at the chemistry of 1144. It is just a tad bit better then 1018; being that it was stress relieved is really the only thing that makes it better and that just means that it is dead. But anyway all the other ones that Iam making are being made out of A-7 tool steel about the same as 1144. In my opinion even with using the 1018 I don't think 2 small woodruff keys will make much of a difference and I don't put the woodruffs in anyway. I just use a standard keyway; I see no need for a woodruff. The machine doesn't produce enough torque to rip a key out even when using the back gears. Sorry for the long response. Rich ------- Re: spindle Posted by: "dwoodcutter" dougdomerx~xxyahoo.com Date: Tue Sep 7, 2010 2:39 pm ((PDT)) Hi All, I had some questions about your spindle and the material. My friend and I will be making a new spindle for my 618. We have an appropriate sized piece of 12L14, and are wondering if you guys think this is an OK steel to make the spindle out of. The pics of your spindle build answered a lot of questions as to how to proceed with the outer portion of the spindle. My question stems from my thoughts as to how you will bore the center on a 618 lathe. In other words how will you secure the piece for boring? Lastly, do any of you think that hardening, case or other is appropriate? As always, I am your humble Initiate and would appreciate any advice. Cheers, Doug PS - Turning down my old spindle and using oversized split bushings worked great. .00000 to the 10th runout. IOW, none, I am just not satisfied with it not being original. Thanks to you guys, guys like me can use our equipment. ------- Re: spindle Posted by: "Rich" rgarzottox~xxcomcast.net Date: Tue Sep 7, 2010 4:28 pm ((PDT)) Doug, the 12L14 is A good choice for material. The only thing that is wrong with it is that it has lead in it; not much but some. If you are going to harden it the better choice is flame hardening but I see no need for it at all. As you can see in the pics I have posted there is a hole in there. 3/8 all the way and a 1/2 in the front where the 2MT bore will be bored through using a collet and a steady rest. If you don't have a steady rest, to me the best thing to do is what I do and that is install the spindle into the headstock and go through it. All of the bronze bearing spindles I have made were done that way. I have not yet bored the MT2 bore in the last spindle I have made due to the fact that it is not mounted to my machine yet (but it will be). Remember your machine is older. The MT2 bore in your current spindle will be based off a .625 per foot taper, not the newer standard .599 per foot. Just something to think about if you buy a new Morse taper attachment. Any other questions all you have to do is ask. I'm sure someone here would be able to answer them for you. Also now that you are making your own spindle, now is your chance to make it the way you want it. Like on the taper bearing spindle it uses 4 metal dust covers to keep some oil in and the dust and dirt out. I changed a few dimensions so now I can run a seal in its place; it will keep the oil in and everything else out. Rich ------- Re: spindle drawing Posted by: "dwoodcutter" dougdomerx~xxyahoo.com Date: Tue Sep 7, 2010 2:40 pm ((PDT)) > For turning long thing, like this spindle or shafting, between > centers is almost always the preferred way. Hi All, Another beginner? I am also about to start a new spindle. How will you go about boring the shaft? I have a 3 jaw self centering chuck and a 4 jaw independent. Would it be better to use the 4 jaw? As always I stand in awe of you guys!!! Cheers Doug ------- Re: spindle drawing Posted by: "Dean" deanwx~xxbmi.net Date: Tue Sep 7, 2010 6:19 pm ((PDT)) Bore it in place, Doug. Make to the final size on the outside, including grinding, put it in its place in the headstock, bore it, and then cut the Morse taper. There's not much you can do to get it better that that, assuming you're making this on the same lathe that it will be used in. Dean ------- Re: spindle Posted by: "Paul Andreasen" paulandreasenx~xxgmail.com Date: Wed Sep 8, 2010 6:11 am ((PDT)) Just one opinion, but the original spindle is much better steel than 12L14. It is closer to O-1 tool steel from what I have been able to find (from an old Atlas employee I met here), and is definitely hardened. I do not know how hard, as the only hardness tester I have goes only to RC35, and it is harder that that. Paul Andreasen Lompoc,CA (Born in MAINE, Living in Exile) ------- Re: spindle Posted by: "Rich" rgarzottox~xxcomcast.net Date: Wed Sep 8, 2010 3:19 pm ((PDT)) O-1 tool steel is shipped soft you will have to get it hardened. There is no advantage in using this material. The material can be hardened up to 62RC. this material you will not be able to harden yourself unless you have a heat treat oven at your house. Rich ------- Re: spindle Posted by: "anthrhodesx~xxaol.com" Date: Wed Sep 8, 2010 6:42 pm ((PDT)) > PS- Turning down my old spindle and using oversized split bushings > worked great. .00000 to the 10th runout. IOW, none, I am just not > satisfied with it not being original. Doug: You have the right to do whatever you wish with your lathe, but --- Regarding the run-out, at present your lathe appears to be far superior to anything Atlas ever produced in any size. Remember, it's a machine tool, it's supposed to be able to do precision machining. Run it in its present form and see if you're happy with its performance, if you are I strongly recommend keeping it as it is! Rich, I hadn't heard about changes in the specs of Morse tapers, in particular of MT-2. When did this happen and by the authority of whom? Why? Can you give references on this matter? Changing a century old standard which has served the machining community well seems like one of the most stupid things anybody could dream up, let alone actually put into practice. Regarding your redesign of the spindle seals, would you provide additional information? A drawing or sketch would be useful and your reasonings would be very helpful. Does this apply to Timken or Oilite bearings or both? Are the seals both outboard and inboard of both the front and rear bearings? All input greatly appreciated. Anthony Berkeley, Calif. ------- Re: spindle Posted by: "Rich" rgarzottox~xxcomcast.net Date: Wed Sep 8, 2010 7:32 pm ((PDT)) Anthony: Here is a link to a morse taper chart: http://www.sizes.com/tools/morse_taper.htm When first made, all Morse tapers were 5/8 per foot. Then over the years they were tweaked a bit. MT1 and MT2 have been changed the most. The rest are around the same. The redesign for the spindle seals was for the timken bearings and they will be inboard and outboard. (All 4 metal dust covers will be replaced with seals.) I did this because those piss ass metal dust covers do nothing but let the oil fly all around. And you will be able to fill up the bearing and it will always run in oil. To do this you will have to use a high speed seal. I will be converting my machine to CNC; just have a few more parts to make for that. All the changes that I made were based on my needs. They may not be good for others. I should be able to get a sketch in a few days. Hope this answers your questions. Rich ------- Re: spindle drawing Posted by: "dwoodcutter" dougdomerx~xxyahoo.com Date: Wed Sep 8, 2010 11:32 am ((PDT)) > Bore it in place, Doug. Make to the final size on the outside, > including grinding, put it in its place in the head stock, bore it, > and then cut the Morse taper. Dean Dean and Rich, Thanks for the tip. That technique never occurred to me. I guess I need to get out of my box sometimes and think things through. For the price of 01, would you guys suggest I get a piece and use it instead of the 12L14? I checked McMaster-Carr and a suitable piece would be about $25. Rich - I noticed in the pictures and then on my own spindle that there is no relief after the threads on the chuck end of the spindle. Is there a reason for this and would it make sense to put a relief on my new spindle? Thanks again for the advice. Cheers, Doug ------- Re: spindle drawing Posted by: "Dean" deanwx~xxbmi.net Date: Wed Sep 8, 2010 2:04 pm ((PDT)) Doug, if you decide to use something other than 12L14, then you might as well go right to 1144. It's stable and quite a bit stronger than the other steels, like 1018, 1045, 12L, etc. It won't hurt to use O1 either, but I can't see the benefit of it for this application. It's not like you're going to harden it to tool cutting hardness to use as a spindle. If you want to use something you can flame harden, something on the order of 1045 is probably more suitable. You should be able to use 1144 stressproof just as it comes off the lathe, (and grinder). Dean ------- Re: spindle drawing Posted by: "Rich" rgarzottox~xxcomcast.net Date: Wed Sep 8, 2010 3:02 pm ((PDT)) Doug, I put that relief at the end because I made that spindle from start to finish without removing it from the centers. I needed a place to start the threads. I could have started from the end and made left hand threads but then I would have had to make a nut. I could have made a special tool to cut from the left but there is not enough height in my tool post to get to center. Just so you know it will effect the size of the through hole you will put in the spindle. The relief measures .660 a few thousands under the root dia of the thread. Rich ------- Re: spindle drawing Posted by: "dwoodcutter" dougdomerx~xxyahoo.com Date: Wed Sep 8, 2010 3:03 pm ((PDT)) > Doug, if you decide to use something other than 12L14, then you > might as well go right to 1144. Dean - Thanks for the tip. How does 1144 machine? Thanks Doug ------- Re: spindle drawing Posted by: "Dean" deanwx~xxbmi.net Date: Wed Sep 8, 2010 9:15 pm ((PDT)) Pretty good, really. From my experience, a little easier than 1018, and quite a bit better than plain HRS A36, (but not as easy as 12L14, of course). It turns up to a nicer finish than O-1 or W-1, too. I've done quite a bit of work with 1144sp on larger machines, and I'd consider it easy on those. I've also done a fair bit of work with it on my 618 in my home shop. The 618 is kind of small, as lathes go, but it will still do a good job on 1144. Just keep your tool sharp, and it will come off in nice little self breaking chips. Dean ------- Re: spindle drawing Posted by: "Mike Nicewonger" twmasterx~xxtwmaster.com Date: Wed Sep 8, 2010 9:23 pm ((PDT)) I always have 1144sp in stock in my workshop. Great stuff to work with. Like Dean I also have a 618 and with good sharp tools cuts the stuff very well. Mike N ------- Re: spindle Posted by: "Paul Andreasen" paulandreasenx~xxgmail.com Date: Thu Sep 9, 2010 7:09 am ((PDT)) On Wed, Sep 8, 2010 at 3:19 PM, Rich wrote: > O-1 tool steel is shipped soft you will have to get it hardened. > There is no advantage in using this material. Rich, You do need to harden O-1 IF you are using it as tool edge or if extreme wear is a concern. But the O-1 is usually hard enough to use "as-is" for most applications that do not require high Rockwell numbers. A good place to find properties for any materials is www.matweb.com. You can "join" to get full data on almost anything, but even the free access info is great. From Latrobe Steel: *"TLS O1 tool steel is the original oil-hardening, "non-shrinking" tool steel that can be hardened to the Rockwell C 65 range from a low austenitizing temperature. TLS O1 is a general-purpose tool steel which is typically used in applications where alloy steels cannot provide sufficient hardness, strength, and wear resistance. It is normally provided in a condition that is annealed for machining, and must be hardened for optimal wear, but is much harder even in the supplied state than other, lower carbon and chromium laden steels."* And from McMaster Carr: *"Multipurpose Oil-Hardened O1 Tool Steel* *One of the original tool steels. Has a good combination of machinability and resistance to wear and abrasion. It is used extensively in dies and punches for blanking, forming, and trimming, as well as in cams, bushings, guides, and gauges."* *And that is without hardening.* I seldom bother to harden it for use as gun tools or parts, and other uses, unless it will either be in an abrasive use, or must hold a sharp edge. Its wear capabilities as-is are far above something like 1018 which is used in most construction and non-load bearing steel work. It can be hardened, but not tempered due to the low carbon content. I do love 12L14, but it does not harden well in my opinion. It is not as even stress wise either. For general use yes, but not for durable or wear resistant products. O-1 is also what the Atlas/Clausing folks recommend (unhardened) for use as replacement stock for manufacturing the pieces like the gear countershaft, and back gear eccentric shaft, both of which see a lot of wear. Annealed IS softer than fully hardened steel, but definitely NOT soft. **For real durability, Ultra high wear resistant M4 steel is not much more expensive and is actually harder, or at least able to handle stress and wear, better than most hardened mild steels. It, unfortunately, is only "fair" as far as machinability goes. Anyway, just another "opinion", which like certain orifices, we all have at least one! Paul Andreasen Lompoc,CA (Born in MAINE, Living in Exile) ------- NOTE TO FILE: Ron Thibault has a very useful site for Atlas owners and has lots of hints on restoring lathes. When folks need a new spindle for their Atlas lathe, there are two different spindles depending on whether the lathe's bearings are roller or sleeve type. Ron has an easy modification to use a roller-bearing-type spindle on a sleeve-bearing-type lathe, and the reverse situation. Very neat. http://bellsouthpwp.net/t/h/thib9564/Atlas_Lathe_Spindle_Compare.htm ------- Re: Bearing sources [Metal_Shapers] Posted by: "Arthur,Brian,Sean Myers" myers1ax~xxfrontier.com Date: Sun Apr 3, 2011 7:29 am ((PDT)) On 4/2/2011 10:31 PM, akindog1000 wrote: >I've been pulling my "new" Sheldon 12" apart and cleaning out all the >old hard grease, and inspecting the bearings. The bearings actually >look very good but I thought I should replace a few of them anyway. >Does anyone know of a cross reference to the old Sheldon bearings, I >think they are called "New Departure", I assume they are out of business. Go to accuratebearing.com. Measure the bearing (bore, outer diameter and width) or put the bearing number in their interchange part number converter. They can give you anywhere from really cheap chinese bearings through high grade US and german made bearings. I would go with a good japanese bearing(NTN or similar) as anything else is probably overkill. Sean ------- Re: Bearing sources Posted by: "BRIAN GLACKIN" glackin.brianx~xxgmail.com Date: Sun Apr 3, 2011 8:24 am ((PDT)) I second the Accurate Bearings recommendation. I have replaced bearings on a number of workshop tools in the past year. Most of it has been fairly small and low cost bearings. For each online quote, I have received a call from Lynn at Accurate to verify dimensions and what grade I was interested in (always Nachi or better). Lynn is their small shop/hobbyist specialist. Also a good primer on bearings. http://wiki.owwm.com/Ball%20Bearing%20Primer.ashx ------- [Atlas 10 inch replacement bearings] looking for help, altlas 10 inch replacement bearings [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: "bessyandeye" bessyandeyex~xxyahoo.com Date: Mon Apr 4, 2011 2:22 pm ((PDT)) Where does one buy them besides from Clausing at way too much money? thank you j ------- Re: looking for help, altlas 10 inch replacement bearings Posted by: "James Irwin" jirwin1x~xxaustin.rr.com Date: Mon Apr 4, 2011 2:26 pm ((PDT)) Bearings are pretty much standard parts at any bearing supply house. If you can bluff your way into them accepting you as being from some OEM company or customer, prices go down a lot more. OR you can buy them for WAY more money from Sears spare parts! Jim I ------- Re: looking for help, altlas 10 inch replacement bearings Posted by: "Al Godwin" algodwin86x~xxyahoo.com Date: Mon Apr 4, 2011 2:30 pm ((PDT)) If you have roller bearings you should be able to purchase at a local bearing supply house. One nationwide distibutor is Applied Industrial Supply. There may be others in your area. An online house such as Grainger or MSC is an option if you can establish an account with them. However if you have babbitt bearings you may have a bit of a problem as many machine shops no longer pour and spin bearings due to the environmental regulations. ------- Re: looking for help, altlas 10 inch replacement bearings Posted by: "bill phelps" sweetwaterent2000x~xxyahoo.com Date: Mon Apr 4, 2011 3:29 pm ((PDT)) The bearings are standard, but this is where it gets expensive. The races are only made for atlas craftsman lathes, you can find them but they are very costly. If the races are not pitted you might get away with just changing the bearings. ------- Re: looking for help, altlas 10 inch replacement bearings Posted by: "Dan Buchanan" db45acpx~xxyahoo.com Date: Mon Apr 4, 2011 3:20 pm ((PDT)) Try here: KAMANDIRECT.com You should be able to search by bearing number, usually found on the races. Dan ------- Re: looking for help, altlas 10 inch replacement bearings Posted by: "db45acp" db45acpx~xxyahoo.com Date: Mon Apr 4, 2011 4:01 pm ((PDT)) How much are they at Clausing, if you actually checked with them? Using the information found in the FILES Section for Bearing Numbers: Timken bearing part numbers for 10 and 12" lathes. The Timken bearings (on both 10 and 12-inch versions of the Atlas) had parts numbers that appear to have been(consistent over the years) as follows: Big Cone = 16150 Big Cup = 16284B Small Cone = 14125A Small Cup = 14276B I logged into my own Kaman.com account and priced the above bearings and here are the results: THE TIMKEN COMPANY 16284B_BEARING CUP EA USD 179.03 THE TIMKEN COMPANY 16150_BEARING CONE EA USD 38.75 THE TIMKEN COMPANY 14125A_BEARING CONE EA USD 24.83 THE TIMKEN COMPANY 14276B_BEARING CUP EA USD 68.63 Subtotal: USD 311.24 I have not replaced bearings in any of my lathes yet, so I personally cannot confirm the numbers. Also can't explain the $179.03 price for the one bearing cup. Seems high. Simple Google Shopping search shows National and Federal Mogul of the same number are about $12.00. I do not have price comparisons with other suppliers. I hope this information is helpful/useful. Dan ------- Re: looking for help, altlas 10 inch replacement bearings Posted by: "L. Garlinghouse" lhghousex~xxsuddenlink.net Date: Tue Apr 5, 2011 12:24 pm ((PDT)) OK. I've lost the stuff I was going to reply to in my reply. Oh well ... Also, before I get cranked up, the following is my train of thought, not the product of any profound knowledge. I believe/suspect that precision in tapered roller bearings is less than of an issue because they are self centering if preloaded correctly, which is not the case in ball bearings which have all sorts of precision grades. But check me out on this before you commit. If your bearings are pre-Timken, then there is plenty of material on re-babbiting bearings on the net, in Machinery's Handbook and Lindsay Publishing has at least one book on it. I've not done it personally, but know people who have. You may end up knowing someone who has. You may even end up being the person that has that others end up knowing. On the more likely chance that yours has the Timken bearings, I would go with getting replacement bearings at a bearing house or a local autoparts store [as has already been suggested]. I would go with a reputable name, Timken or some other. Also I would prefer US made or maybe Czech over Chicom. BUT ... someone mentioned that the race aka "cup" is funny. If so it is either too big or too small on the outside compared with a standard one. Timken bearings have/had oversize races available for repairing stuff that had spun a bearing race [weld it up, re-bore to the next size. NO, don't do that on your lathe, on your wore out ag equipment maybe. I've done that on a friend's harvester.] So it should be possible to get an automotive machine shop or a grinding shop to grind down an oversized race to the proper size. Normal off-the-shelf Timkens are not all that expensive. I would try these before I put out big bucks for "official" replacements. They may be good enough, or even better than good enough. I feel your pain. L.H. Garlinghouse Arkansistan USA ------- Re: looking for help, altlas 10 inch replacement bearings Posted by: "bill phelps" sweetwaterent2000x~xxyahoo.com Date: Tue Apr 5, 2011 3:03 pm ((PDT)) The timken races/cups are not oversize, they have a shoulder on one. That is why it costs so much; the bearings are standard. If the cups are not pitted or rough you might be able to just replace the bearings. ------- Re: looking for help, altlas 10 inch replacement bearings Posted by: "Raymond" jwreyx~xxusa.net Date: Wed Apr 6, 2011 6:39 am ((PDT)) A good web search can produce good results. I bought a set of Timken bearings for an Atlas/Craftsman headstock two years ago at a very reasonable price: www.jbr17llc.com Receipt dated 2/21/2009 14276B 27.97 16150 16.79 14125A 10.63 16284B 56.00 shipping 7.22 Total 118.61 This same set fits all Atlas and Craftsman model 101-x ten and twelve inch headstocks that use Timken roller bearings. Enjoy! Raymond ------- Re: Atlas 101.07382 traverse gear housing [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: "Jon Elson" elsonx~xxpico-systems.com Date: Fri Sep 23, 2011 10:08 am ((PDT)) mlk10051 wrote: > On a different problem, is there a way to tighten up babbit bearings or should I try and find a timken headstock? I can't see myself pouring new babbits. I guess my big question is, is this a fixer or do I start parting it out? I spent $100 on it expecting repairs but I feel like I may be near the "not worth it" tipping point. Thanks for your sharing your experience, Mark < Well, how BAD is the Babbitt bearing? If it is in good condition, there is nothing to worry about. Measure the up/down and front/back movement with a dial indicator while applying modest (10 - 50 Lb) force to the the chuck. If the movement is only a few thousandths of an inch, that is quite acceptable; you are just pressing the oil film to one side or the other of the bearing. When running, the hydrodynamic forces will resist that and keep it centered. If there is a lot of clearance in the chuck-end bearing, then you can remove laminated shims under the bearing cap and see how that helps. Finer adjustments can be made by putting pieces of aluminum foil under the caps. In other words, you take out one .004" shim lamination and put in maybe 2 pieces of kitchen aluminum foil of .0015" each, and you have closed it up by about .001". If there is a lot of front/back movement, then adjusting the bearing caps won't help. Taking down both bearings by scraping the bottom of the Babbitt would help, but it depends how bad the wear is over the full circle of the bearing, which is harder to measure. Timken bearing headstocks are available on eBay and such. You can search and see what they are selling for. Generally, they are a drop-in replacement. Jon ------- Re: Atlas 101.07382 traverse gear housing Posted by: "Raymond" jwreyx~xxusa.net Date: Fri Sep 23, 2011 4:25 pm ((PDT)) On Sep 23, 2011, mlk10051 wrote: > > Yes it seemed like a good deal at that price and I feel like I could afford to put some money into it and still be at a spouse acceptable investment level. :) I read somewhere that the babbits may have spacers that could be taken out. Would these be under the bearing caps maybe? I'm afraid I'm not familiar with the scraping process, what would I be scraping? Thanks, Mark < < Ahz wrote: > I don't understand how scraping can tighten the bearings. But are you *sure* you have a problem? In any event, if you remove the bearing covers you'll likely see a number of thing shims. Remove a few and see if the situation improves. < The shims are originally manufactured from five layers of .002 brass stock soldered together. By peeling one layer at a time from one side at a time you get adjustments in .001 increments. The procedure is to peel one layer on one side of the shaft then test for fit by smearing the bearing with oil then replacing spindle and the cap and tightening the cap screws for that bearing only. There should be very slight drag. Do the front beaRing (chuck end of the shaft) first, then do the back, peeling one shim only from the same cap side, but only if lateral (side to side or up and down) play can be detected. Check for fit as before but with the front cap removed. Once both are adjusted so there is a slight drag when turning the spindle by hand, tighten all four bearing capscrews, fill the oilers and spin up the motor. Let the motor turn the spindle slowly (slow direct) for about an hour, keeping the oilers filled. Now check again for play. I did this with my lathe two years ago, haven't detected any play yet. raymond ------- Re: Atlas 101.07382 traverse gear housing Posted by: "Jon Elson" elsonx~xxpico-systems.com Date: Fri Sep 23, 2011 7:46 pm ((PDT)) Ahz wrote: > I don't understand how scraping can tighten the bearings. Well, the problem is the bearing is egg-shaped. Generally, the reaction to the cutting forces pushes the spindle up and back. What you really want to do is apply metal where it is missing. But, without repouring the Babbitt, you can't do that. Removing shims can reduce the up/down free play, but it has little effect on the front/back problem. If you were to scrape a little Babbitt off the very top and bottom of the bearing, it would constrain the spindle better, and allow you to remove more shims and bring the front/back in just a little bit. I am not sure this would help a whole lot, but it might be worth trying. One would have to use some measuring instruments to make sure the spindle remained parallel to the bed. Jon ------- NOTE TO FILE: See a free book detailing how to repair Babbitt bearings. http://www.metalwebnews.org/ftp/bearing-book.pdf Additionally you can do an internet search for Babbitt bearings and find a number of helpful videos. ------- [Add roller bearings to a lathe, mill, shaper, or other machine] ADDING ROLLER BEARINGS TO AN ATLAS 10/12" COMPOUND. [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: "Jim B." btdtrfx~xxverizon.net eeengineer1 Date: Wed Dec 14, 2011 5:53 pm ((PST)) INTRODUCTION There are a lot of things that can be done to an Atlas 10" lathe to increase its usefulness but one of the least expensive and useful things is to add roller bearings to the compound and cross slide. I have done this to both of my South Bend lathes, my Burke mill and my Springfield shaper. I have also added them to several friends' lathes and to the tailstocks of my Heavy 10 and a friends Heavy 10. I have been repairing/ replacing the top slide on a friends 10" Atlas lathe. I decided to add roller bearings to the top slide while I was there. I have not done an atlas before and this would be a change. I have been told that the compound for the Atlas 10" is the same or similar to the 12" Looking at the wear points I found that three bearings were needed. I went through my supply of excess bearings and I found that the INA TC613 bearing and TWA613 thrust washers would do the job. These are available from MSC as item numbers 03380896 for the bearings at $3.22 each and 03381068 for the washer at $1.03 each. You will need three bearings and six washers. The total will cost $16 (as of 12/14/11). Unfortunately MSC will charge you $11 for shipping and put them in a big box. PROCEDURE 1) You will need to machine 0.812 OD by 0.125 deep pockets in both sides of the dial (10F-62). 2) You will also need to machine a similar pocket in the plate (9-307) on the side facing the screw, this time 0.087 deep. 3) On my top slide I thinned down the jam nut. 4) Finally there is a possibility that top slide casting (9-303) will interfere with the bearing and you may need to grind it just a bit. I started with the dial. http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f334/eeengineer1/Machining-bear ing-well-in-c.jpg The OD of the dial is a bit less than 1" Since my lathe has collets that size it was easier to hold the dial in a collet. You could use a 3 Jaw with pieces of paper under the jaws to prevent marring the dial. If I did not have a 1" collet I would have used a 4-jaw chuck with pieces of copper under the jaws to protect the part. I used a shop made boring bar to machine out the Pockets. I find that with ZAMAK all tools need to vey sharp. I bored the OD to 0.800. The bearing is listed as having an 0.813 OD but it measures closer to 0.775. My boring tool has a sharp edge, producing a small radius and I reduced the OD of my well just a bit. The bearing is 0.078" thick and the washers are 0.032" for a total thickness of 0.142". I made the pockets 0.125" deep allowing the washers to be proud by 0.017. This insures that thrust is taken by the bearing assembly. Both sides of the dial are machined in the same way. I next machined a pocket on the plate. I found the best way to do this was to make a stub arbor. I turned a 0.377 (tight fit on the plate, measure yours to get the exact dimension) step on a larger rod and superglue the plate to the arbor. The step was about 0.157 long. I also drilled a shallow 1/4" hole in the face of the step to allow clearance for the boring bar. http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f334/eeengineer1/Flange-on-mandrill.jpg I machined out the pocket with a freshly sharpened carbide tool. This pocket was 0.093 deep. The bearing is protected from swarf by the casting and I wanted to leave some of the cage open to receive oil from the oil hole just above it in the casting. http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f334/eeengineer1/Finished-boring-bear ing-wel.jpg The next step is to thin down the check nut. On my compound the amount of threads that hold 10D-262) nut were skimpy. I use up and additional 0.065" of thread by leaving part of the bearings proud. I thinned the nut to 5/32 and machined a slight step where it bears against the thrust washer. http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f334/eeengineer1/raised-step-on-nut.jpg Finally, depending on your casting there is a section which may interfere with the OD of the bearing. http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f334/eeengineer1/Gib-fits-screw-cen tered.jpg You can see it in the upper right section of the casting. This should be removed. A Dremel tool will do the job. I could not find the tools for my Dremel so I chucked a small grinding wheel in the SB drill press and, holding the casting in a drill vise, I ground the protrusion off. http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f334/eeengineer1/grinding-topslide-.jpg That finished the machining. ASSEMBLY The next picture shows how the bearings are assembled. http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f334/eeengineer1/3-Bearings-exposed.jpg The bearings on the outside of the plate will be almost invisible upon tightening the check nut. http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f334/eeengineer1/Bearings-sle eve-and-nut.jpg You should tighten the check nut until you feel a bit of a drag on the dial. In this system a bit of preload is used. This preload completely eliminates any axial play which was previously required to allow the dial to turn. You can then assemble the key, crank handle and locking nut and tighten the plate down to the housing. http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f334/eeengineer1/Final-assembly.jpg CONCLUSION This is a low cost conversion that will improve the feel and eliminate (non-nut related) axial play in the compound. While I have not personally done it, a similar modification should be able to be done on the cross feed screw. JAB 12/14/11 Jim B. Owner http://finance.groups.yahoo.com/group/southbendheavy10/ http://finance.groups.yahoo.com/group/southbendheavy10files/ co-owner. NJ_LoganLatheOwnersx~xxyahoogroups.com moderator http://groups.yahoo.com/group/southbendlathe/ Projects_For_Home_Shop_Metal_Fabricators ------- Re: ADDING ROLLER BEARINGS TO AN ATLAS 10/12" COMPOUND. Posted by: "Paul" yahoogroupsx~xxpackratpaul.com Date: Thu Dec 15, 2011 10:02 am ((PST)) Great mod. Long time lurker here, just had to add that http://www.drillspot.com/ has these parts for less than MSC and free shipping to boot. I have not yet ordered from them so I can't comment on their service. Paul ------- Re: ADDING ROLLER BEARINGS TO AN ATLAS 10/12" COMPOUND. Posted by: "Keith Brockmiller" brockklx~xxbellsouth.net Date: Thu Dec 15, 2011 11:09 am ((PST)) I use them all the time. Top notch. Good prices. Most of their stuff drop ships from Grainger, cheaper than Grainger. Keith ------- Re: ADDING ROLLER BEARINGS TO AN ATLAS 10/12" COMPOUND. Posted by: "Scott Henion" shenionx~xxshdesigns.org Date: Fri Dec 16, 2011 8:01 am ((PST)) I looked at 12x46 my cross slide yesterday. It is real stiff. What made a big difference was removing the dial and cleaning it. Seems dirt gets into the back of the dial. I'm thinking of making a brass washer to fit between the dial and the carriage to reduce friction. There is nothing between the dial and the carriage. The brass bearing is recessed, I wonder if there is supposed to be a spacer for dial. It still is tight but loose for the .020 play in the nut. One of these days I'll tear it down and clean it up and replace the nut. Scott G. Henion Craftsman 12x36 lathe: http://shdesigns.org/Craftsman12x36 ------- [atlas_craftsman] Re: Timken versus Babbit Bearings (was Re: Swapping head stock for a Posted by: "Doc" n8as1x~xxaol.com docn8as Date: Sun Jun 17, 2012 11:00 am ((PDT)) In a message dated 06/15/2012, yaeffinhoox~xxyahoo.com writes: >> Sorry, no answer from me, but I'd like to know if the timken bearings >> are really that much of an advantage over babbitt bearing headstocks >> which are in good condition? >> I'm selling my timken bearing 12" craftsman and keeping my babbitt >> bearing model because it's in much better condition. Just want >> to make sure that I'm not making a drastic mistake. Scott Sun, Jun 17 wa5cab wrote: > Short answer, despite several comments to the contrary, is in my opinion yes. Properly installed Timken tapered roller bearings have zero axial and radial play (which is not the same thing as runout - the two are additive). As I wrote earlier, I don't know what the brand new Atlas specs were for the babbit bearing headstocks, but they were very definitely not zero/zero. The other still current babbit bearing applications mentioned earlier all have pressure lubrication systems and for that reason plus thers don't care about one or two thousands of end play or radial play (clearance). Robert Downs - Houston wa5cab dot com (Web Store) < both in xcellent condition, take the timpken, particularly w/ running small parts at high rpm (1500-2000rpm) ....i wud prefer a good conditon babbit lathe to a worn out timpken .....that said, my 1895 Reed 14 inch lathe has original babbit bearings, 2 inch headstock, & i can move the spindle 2 thou w/ a 2x4 under it & against the bed.....i can still work to tenths w/ this lathe which has 24 thou shim under the t/stock & 9 thou bed wear......because of a 22in wide carriage the wear is even for abt 1/2 the bed length & a follower rest will drag down the work as the carriage drops, so near all is mitigated....the economic necessity for high spindle speeds broght the change from solid to anti firction bearings ....ALTHO, ... my 1915 surface grinder spindle runs at 3100. but the bearing is massive, dissipating the heat, & the load is lite.... the solid bearing on my 1912 T&C grinder running at 3000+ is not nearly as large, but again the load is lite.......get a babbit bearing too hot & it deteriorates rapidly ....industrial babbit lathes generally had a top speed of circa 500 ....but for lite, intermittent use, well oiled babbit lathes can be run considerably higher. best wishes doc ------- Re: Spindle / Bearing speed was Timken versus Babbit Bearings Posted by: "Eggleston Lance" wheezer606x~xxverizon.net Date: Sun Jun 17, 2012 11:07 am ((PDT)) Doc, I have a Bausch and Lomb Instrument Maker's Lathe that I am rebuilding. It has hardened and ground steel taper bearings < ~ 3" long x 1.25" ID > that run in a taper bronze bushing pressed into the headstock. Total loss oiling through the top of each via Gits, like the Atlas. What would you estimate top spindle speed to be for this bearing set-up? lance ------- Re: Spindle / Bearing speed was Timken versus Babbit Bearings Posted by: "Doc" n8as1x~xxaol.com docn8as Date: Sun Jun 17, 2012 1:41 pm ((PDT)) Lance....my posts are based on my own practical experience & opinions thereof ....when i deviate from this i state "this is what i have read /heard.." so having never seen, read or heard of this lathe, i am not competant to even guess. so w/ that caveat ....the enemy of solid bearings is heat /lack of lube .....& the more masssiive the bearing, the better the heat dissipation, whatever the material....if you can't keep your hand on the h/stock for several seconds, it is TOO HOT ... i am GUESSIng this to be a light bench lathe for fine work, maybe somewhat larger than a watch makers lathe, originally run from a a line shaft .... maybe not .....line shaft speeds for various machines i have were from 160 to 250 rpm depending on size of lathe, larger the lathe the slower the speed...if you have the c/shaft you can calculate the original speeds intended by pulley ratios...many but not ALL c/shafts were same size as the spindle pullleys, so you may guess if you don't have the c/shaft, that it is the same & take the ratio between low & high pulleys & line shaft speed ....& remember antiques were made to use carbon steel tools, thereby cutting in 1/2 the speeds available w/ high speed tooling ... so running 750 rpm w/ carbon steel wud be abt the same as1500 w/ high speed tools ..... i assume the SPINDLE is hardened steel, tapered, & runnning in a tapered bronze bush in the h/stock. (did not understand your post of hard steel bushing running in bronze bushing)..so thickness & length of the bush determines the heat dissipation rate .... i wud guess that working between centers on 1/4 in rod or so, any speed up to 3000 or so, unless running an 8 hr shift ....w/ a heavy chuck hanging there & turning a 6 in shaft, it's another story ... atlas apparently thinks a rather thin oilite bush is adequate for 2000 rpm on my 1957 6X18 that i have had for 52 yrs.. w/ original bushes ....BUT when it came to a 10 in lathe (heavier chuck working on heavier material, they must have felt the thin bush inadequate (cause they were working to market the cheapest functional machine & they wud still have used a thin bush ... all that said, if you cannot come up w/ the original speeds, i wud determine the usage envisoned, & go accordingly ........i have seen recommendations for raising the speeds of 14 -16 in bronze bush engine lathes to 750 - 1000 rpm ...but these things generate HEAT....my monarch A 14 inch i set up w/ a top speed pf 750 ....my 14 in Reed (babbit) i set up w/ top speed of 720 rpm, but only use it for filing & sanding or single small hole driling ...babbit will melt at circa 1/2 the temp of bronze.., depending on contents.... i use high speed 99% of the time & on craftsmn 12X36. i cannot remember the last time i moved the motor belt to the high range ...i run a max of abt 660 on the small stuff...too much trouble to change back & forth ...just cause you can run it at 2-3 thou, doesn't mean you must ..... i wud think a max of 1000 rpm wud be adequate, & you cud probably run it twice that for short times w/ light load. but why?......again the THICKER & LONGER the bronze, the better the heat dissipation ...... FWIW ...my 100 yr old sorghum mill shows a lot of use, BUT the MASSIVE babbit bearings are hardly worn (slow speed, horse walking in a circle, pole attached to horse & mill, lubed w/ cane juice).... hope this helps more than it confuses best wishes doc ------- Re: Spindle / Bearing speed was Timken versus Babbit Bearings Posted by: "Eggleston Lance" wheezer606x~xxverizon.net Date: Sun Jun 17, 2012 2:42 pm ((PDT)) Doc, I got it. Don't run your horse more than 1000 rpm without lubricating him well with cane sugar ! I posted 4 pics of the bearing, spindle and bush in the folder A spindle, bearing and bush. lance ------- Re: Spindle / Bearing speed was Timken versus Babbit Bearings Posted by: "jerdalx~xxsbcglobal.net" Date: Sun Jun 17, 2012 2:37 pm ((PDT)) The Rivett 608, which has a bit larger bronze bearing (around 2") with same oiling system, has a top speed of 1500 RPM for the 4NS collet type, and 1300 rpm for the 5C. type..... The 608 has the same sort of double taper bearing, like a huge watch lathe. Yours should be capable of the same range as the 608, at least. JT ------- Re: Spindle / Bearing speed was Timken versus Babbit Bearings Posted by: "Eggleston Lance" wheezer606x~xxverizon.net Date: Sun Jun 17, 2012 2:51 pm ((PDT)) JT, Thanks for the info. That the range Doc "guesstimated", so that's where I'll design for. There is no countershaft with the unit and I plan to install a 0.5 HP 3 pH with VFD, so I can figure the driving pulley diameter for that. Also, the spindle nose is threaded 33mm x 10 tpi and has a short internal taper for collet use. The spindle bore is 14 mm, so I assume that it was intended for 14mm WW collets? I have never heard of the collet types you mention. The current lube system is total loss via Gits cup. I could install felt or shoe lace to slow the draining. Would a continuous drip system from an oil reservoir provide any advantage or is a few drops of oil all that is needed for an hour's use? lance ------- Re: Spindle / Bearing speed was Timken versus Babbit Bearings Posted by: "Jon Elson" elsonx~xxpico-systems.com Date: Sun Jun 17, 2012 4:35 pm ((PDT)) Eggleston Lance wrote: > What would you estimate top spindle speed to be for this > bearing set-up. Geez, no way to know! It depends on the surface finish of the bearing and journal, the load, the clearance and the lube. I'd guess this was designed to make fairly small parts, so it would be likely it was made for higher speeds, several thousand RPM, probably. If it gets hot, then you are running too fast or using too high a lube viscosity. If it doesn't get hot, it is almost certainly OK. Jon ------- bearings for am atlas 10" th42 [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: "trex117x~xxverizon.net" Date: Sun Dec 30, 2012 3:07 pm ((PST)) I just took out the spindle and need to replace the 4- bearing pieces. The originals are timkens. I was wondering where can I buy timken bearings from? All my online searches show only wholesale or industrial sales. ------- Re: bearings for am atlas 10" th42 Posted by: "Dan Buchanan" db45acpx~xxyahoo.com Date: Sun Dec 30, 2012 3:22 pm ((PST)) Google Kaman Bearing or Motion Industries. ------- Re: bearings for am atlas 10" th42 Posted by: "joerhenryx~xxsuddenlink.net" Date: Sun Dec 30, 2012 3:52 pm ((PST)) Check the yellow pages for bearings. Hopefully you ave a BDI (Bearing Distributors Incorporated) nearby. Or Accurate Bearing is a mailorder supplier. Have your numbers ready if you call Accurate 630 543 2100. jrh ------- Re: bearings for am atlas 10" th42 Posted by: "trex117x~xxverizon.net" Date: Sun Dec 30, 2012 4:08 pm ((PST)) Thanks, so far, at most sites I checked, the image doesn't match what I have and the price is $200 -$300 range. They are 2 piece bearings; inner cone is tapered with rollers in it and the outer cup is tapered to match but has a flange on the outside. This is the hard part to find. I'll try bringing them to a bearing supply. ------- Re: bearings for am atlas 10" th42 Posted by: "Guenther Paul" paulguenterx~xxatt.net Date: Sun Dec 30, 2012 5:07 pm ((PST)) I am not sure if you can find them there; try mcmaster-carr. GP ------- Re: bearings for am atlas 10" th42 Posted by: "Scott Henion" shenionx~xxshdesigns.org Date: Sun Dec 30, 2012 4:25 pm ((PST)) If you google the Timken part #s places like Autozone will have the bearings. Both bearings look to be common auto wheel bearings. The outer races are also available from Amazon and others. In the files area is the Timken part numbers under: Files > Repairs and Maintenance > 10 and 12" bearings Scott G. Henion Craftsman 12x36 lathe: http://shdesigns.org/Craftsman12x36 ------- Re: bearings for am atlas 10" th42 Posted by: "db45acp" db45acpx~xxyahoo.com Date: Sun Dec 30, 2012 4:59 pm ((PST)) Check with this website: www.jbr17llc.com By phone: 908-852-0111 (between 8:00am.5:00p.m. Eastern time zone) Fax Number: 908-852-1940 E-Mail: jbr17llcx~xxyahoo.com or emailx~xxjbr17llc.com JBR17, LLC 1090 Route 519 PO Box 396 Johnsonburg, NJ 07846 I rebuilt a TH42 in early 2011 and these four pieces cost me $117.34 plus $13.50 shipping via UPS shipping from them. All Timken parts, delivered in 6 days over a weekend. Use their search box for these numbers. Your bearing numbers should be as follow: 14125A Cone 14276B Cup 16150 Cone 16284B Cup I just checked and the prices are about the same. Good luck, Dan ------- Re: bearings for am atlas 10" th42 Posted by: "trex117x~xxverizon.net" Date: Sun Dec 30, 2012 6:54 pm ((PST)) Thanks, this has been a great help. I found the two inner cones online at autozone both for under $20 so I'm off tomorrow to autozone. The outer cups are a different story. Most sites have them without the "B" which is flange-less (I need the flange). I would imagine that if the section without the flange is the same as the ones they are selling with the flange, then it should fit....but I want the original style anyway. I will try that JBR company probably wednesday. thanks again ------- Re: bearings for am atlas 10" th42 Posted by: "wa5cabx~xxcs.com" Date: Sun Dec 30, 2012 7:37 pm ((PST)) You can also still buy the bearings from Clausing, along with a lot of other parts. If you use plain instead of flanged cups, there is nothing to stop the cups from going on through the holes other than friction. With luck, you could probably get the spindle initially set up properly. But it will soon enough get loose as the cups and particularly the front one drift on through the holes. Robert Downs - Houston wa5cab dot com (Web Store) ------- Re: bearings for am atlas 10" th42 Posted by: "trex117x~xxverizon.net" Date: Sun Dec 30, 2012 8:13 pm ((PST)) Robert, I also was wondering if the flange-less ones would start to creep out of position. I think I'll stick with the flange. The JBR website has them; that's where I'll get them from. If these become too hard to get, I wonder if someone could use the flange-less cup and drill and tap a hole in the bearing housing, then dimple the outer cup. Then use a set screw to keep the cup in position. Just a thought, but I wouldn't do it. (All this trouble just because hurricane sandy put my lathe 8 feet under salt water.) ------- Re: bearings for am atlas 10" th42 Posted by: "wa5cabx~xxcs.com" Date: Sun Dec 30, 2012 9:26 pm ((PST)) I wouldn't thick that the set screw approach would be a good idea. Aside from the practical difficulty of getting the hole and the dimple in the right location and getting the cup pressed in such that the dimple was under the hole, the set screw would tend to egg the cup. Sorry to hear about the Sandy problem. Robert Downs - Houston ------- Re: bearings for am atlas 10" th42 Posted by: "sapperd06" sapper6x~xxroadrunner.com Date: Sun Dec 30, 2012 8:33 pm ((PST)) I am wondering if you could mount the cup, cut a recess for a snap ring. That would eliminate the uneven pressure caused by a set screw. Don ------- Re: bearings for am atlas 10" th42 Posted by: "wa5cabx~xxcs.com" Date: Sun Dec 30, 2012 9:32 pm ((PST)) Yes, that would work where the set screw really wouldn't be practical, and given access to the old cups, determining where the circlip groove had to be wouldn't be difficult. But I can pretty much guarantee that a shop with the necessary line boring equipment to do the job would charge you far more than the cost of two cups. Robert D. ------- NOTE TO FILE: I wouldn't use either mod to a bearing when a flanged version is indeed available, and at reasonable prices. But the snap ring idea is one that might be applicable to other machinery or project situations (but not for a main lathe bearing hopefully). ------- Re: bearings for am atlas 10" th42 Posted by: "Raymond" jwreyx~xxusa.net Date: Sat Jan 5, 2013 6:45 am ((PST)) This question comes up periodically. Spindle bearings for all Atlas and Craftsman badged (101-) Atlas 10" and 12" lathes having the Timken bearing headstock, including the later Craftsman Commercial lathes with the under cabinet drive (except for the Atlas badged Clausing 4800 series) are the same and can be purchased at a fair price from this merchant: http://www.jbr17llc.com/index.html I recommend that anyone who has one of these lathes bookmark the page and save this parts list. Note that the bearings come as cup and cone separately. (The cone is the part with the rollers in a cage, the cup is the tapered ring into which the rollers fit.) Timken numbers; prices as of 1/5/2013: 14125A (Cone) Regular price: $33.70 Sale price: $13.48 14276b (Cup) Regular price: $82.41 Sale price: $28.02 16150 (Cone) Regular price: $53.26 Sale price: $21.30 16284B (Cup) Regular price: $165.50 Sale price: $56.27 $119.07 net, plus shipping. These are the exact match replacements, I have purchased a set and compared them to bearings removed from a Timken bearing headstock. They are a spot-on match. I purchased the set three years ago to be used in my 12x36 Commercial, but alas, I have not yet been able to find the time to reassemble that lathe. But the bearings are still packed in their oiled paper and plastic wrappers and boxes and sit on the shelf right along with the spindle and headstock, patiently awaiting my attention. raymond ------- Re: bearings for am atlas 10" th42 Posted by: "trex117x~xxverizon.net" Date: Sat Jan 5, 2013 7:16 am ((PST)) Thanks Raymond, Dan suggested that site to me and I ordered the bearings. Just a note, both inner cones can be ordered at autozone or an auto parts store,etc. as they are fairly common. The outer flanged cup is the problem. They were both listed on ebay by seperate sellers at decent prices but I didn't buy them there. I'd rather have everything come at once and be the correct part with no issues or headaches from an ebay seller. On another note,,I know this is definately the wrong way to do this, but I removed the far right side cone bearing myself and it was fairly easy. A few sites on the web stated that it is a hard bearing to remove. I used a screwdriver and bent the cage enough to let the rollers fall out which made the cage fall right off. This took 15 seconds. Then I locked the spindle upright in a woodworking vise (thick wooden jaws) and sat the left end on a block of wood (above the vise screws). Then I put a sturdy screwdriver on the bottom lip of the remaining bearing and firmly tapped all around the bearing, making sure the screwdriver never slipped. It started to slide down revealing more surface area for the screwdriver to rest on. A few more taps and it was off. My original bearings had black roller shapes along the inside of the flanged cup part. You can feel them with your fingernail. Not sure if this was from sitting in one position under some strange stress, or sitting in one position under 8 feet of salt water. I have a picture of the bearing wear here: http://bit.ly/ZoLW4D ------- Re: Timkin bearing recess [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: wa5cabx~xxcs.com wa5cab Date: Wed Jul 24, 2013 11:10 pm ((PDT)) In a message dated 07/24/2013, jerster1959x~xxyahoo.com writes: > On the subject of the bearing grades. As im looking for bearings I have > noticed some bearings have #3 next to them. Is this the grade? I have > found bearings but I heard that a example TIMKIN 16150 could also be > a bearing for a car. Is there another way to make sure I purchase a > bearing for a machine and not a car. The term used with tapered roller bearings is "Class" rather than "Grade". But the connotation is the same. ANSI recognizes, from coarse to fine, or from not so good to much better, Classes 4, 2, 3, 0 and 00. Timken currently shows 3, 0, 00 and 000 which they actually call C, B, A and AA. Grossly oversimplifying the ANSI tables, for tapered roller bearings up to and including 12" diameter, the radial runout limits (which happen to be the main thing that we would be concerned with) versus class are: 4 .0020" 2 .0015" 3 .0003" 0 .00015" 00 .000075" Note that either 4 or 2 would be OK for light car wheel bearings so I would assume that at least non-Timken bearings bought from an auto parts chain store would be one of those. Go to http://www.timken.com/en-us/solutions/machinetools/Pages/BearingPrecis ionLevels.aspx for the only chart I've been able to locate on the Timken site showing precision levels and what the various ones are suitable for. I have no idea how this chart compares to what would have been available back in 1935 or so when Atlas first offered lathes with Timken bearings. This chart lists Class C or 3 as suitable for conventional lathes and milling machines. I have not been able to confirm so far that Timken ships nothing today worse than Class 3. I have a contact that I might be able to get an answer from in a few days. If you really want the ANSI/ABEC (for radial ball bearings and some other types) and ANSI/ABMA (for tapered roller bearings) standards they will cost you about $100.00 for a download. Robert D. ------- Spindle bearings for my 101.21400 [atlas618lathe] Posted by: "bracketracerx~xxsbcglobal.net" Date: Fri Aug 9, 2013 5:29 am ((PDT)) Hello all! New member, first post! I'm wanting to replace the spindle bearings on my lathe. I found the numbers on here and disassembled my lathe to confirm the numbers. When I search online, I see a choice of "standard" or "precision" bearings for the 07079 & 07100 cones. It looks like my lathe has the standard grade bearings in it, would I gain anything by getting the precision cones? I want to replace them because I believe I have excessive runout not fixable by adjustment. If I chuck up a piece of round stock and set up a dial indicator on it, on every third revolution the runout goes up by about .005" and then goes back to what it was on the first two revolutions. I did clean the bearings, reassemble, and recheck it. Same problem. Since this is my first lathe, is this normal? I wouldn't think so but I should probably ask that! Any ideas? Anything else it could be? TIA! Stephen ------- Re: Spindle bearings for my 101.21400 Posted by: "bgw1951" baileywilliamsx~xxcox.net Date: Sat Aug 10, 2013 12:35 am ((PDT)) Had similar issues my Atlas 618. Do you have any play in the spindle if you try to move it with your hand? Is the spindle lock nut on the left end of the spindle snug and is the set screw in the nut tightened? If you have explored all options then you may want to try new bearings. I found a set at a local Motion Industries cost was $35.00 for both bearings. I didn't change the bearing seats or dust covers, which I probably should have done. Getting the right/front bearing off was troublesome and I filed all rough spots and cleaned/polished spindle before putting new bearings on. The bearing change and spindle adjustment reduced my IR to .0005 using the MT2 dead center in the headstock. There are some good documentation in the Files section on bearing/spindle adjustment. Good luck ------- Re: Spindle bearings for my 101.21400 Posted by: "bracketracerx~xxsbcglobal.net" Date: Sat Aug 10, 2013 9:17 am ((PDT)) Yes, I can deflect the spindle .001 if I lift up on the chuck. The set screw was tight and the lead shot is in place under it. I did try adjusting the spindle nut per the instructions I found on here, made no difference. Actually, I tried snugging up the nut until I had a heavy drag when I rotated the spindle by hand and still had .001 deflection. I didn't try to operate the lathe with them that tight, I just wanted to see if it would take the play out. I did also put the indicator on the headstock casting itself and lifted up on the chuck, it had no measurable movement. That still doesn't explain the hiccup on every third rotation, though. I've resolved to change the bearings, I can't think of anything else to cause what I'm seeing. If my spindle was bent, I should see a wobble every time around not every third time. I'll probably go with the standard bearings and see how it works out. Thanks for the response! Stephen ------- Re: Spindle bearings for my 101.21400 Posted by: "bgw1951" baileywilliamsx~xxcox.net Date: Sat Aug 10, 2013 10:54 pm ((PDT)) Are you going to replace the bearing seats? When I had the spindle off I took them out cleaned and inspected them and reseated them in the headstock. Several folks told me I should have replaced them also. With the new bearings I have my IR using a MT2 dead center to .0002. ------- Re: Spindle bearings for my 101.21400 Posted by: "dale01" dale01x~xxcenturytel.net Date: Sat Aug 10, 2013 10:55 pm ((PDT)) Perhaps a bad cage or a bad ball in cage. The balls do not make a revolution at the same rate as the races. I can't say I ever knew if it was 1/2 the rate or 1/3 the rate of the speed of the race. (In this case the inner race.) Or I could be wrong. Dale (in South East Colorado) ------- Re: Spindle bearings for my 101.21400 Posted by: wa5cabx~xxcs.com Date: Sun Aug 11, 2013 8:00 am ((PDT)) You're correct, Dale, except that if this is a 101.21400 (Atlas 618 with a Craftsman badge), it's rollers, not balls. I would not almost ever replace cones without replacing cups. The rollers turn several revolutions per revolution of the inner race (and spindle). But I don't know whether it is exactly an integral number of revolutions per shaft revolution. That would be difficult to achieve and impossible to maintain as rollers and races wear. Also, tapered roller bearings come in several different classes, based on among other things maximum radial runout. The current ANSI classes from sloppy to tight are 4, 2, 3, 0 and 00. Timken doesn't recognize 4 or 2 and adds a 000 to the other end. Most likely, the bearings you would buy from an auto parts store are Class 3. Industrial suppliers will have that, which they may call Standard, plus usually (and for more money) the better grades. Unfortunately, most Timken boxes do not have the class marked on them, and the safest assumption is that they are Class 3. Given the degree of precision attainable in the late 1930's and 40's, I would think that the bearings used by Atlas were probably Class 0 or better, as we know that they went to the trouble (cost) to inspect and date them. Robert D. Robert & Susan Downs - Houston wa5cab dot com (Web Store) ------- Re: Spindle bearings for my 101.21400 Posted by: "Curt Wuollet" wideopen1x~xxcharter.net Date: Sun Aug 11, 2013 8:13 pm ((PDT)) The balls rotate faster than the race by roughly the ratio of their circumferences, ignoring slippage. The cage turns slower by about the same factor, so yes, that sounds plausible. The ball speed, not rotation but the speed of its center around the shaft, is the cage speed. So, one ball or a couple adjacent balls made larger by say, rust, could have that effect as they orbit the shaft. Regards cww ------- Re: Spindle bearings for my 101.21400 Posted by: "bracketracerx~xxsbcglobal.net" Date: Sun Aug 11, 2013 8:13 pm ((PDT)) Yes, I will absolutely replace the seats also. They don't have any obvious damage but they are cheap. I'm having trouble finding the bearings locally, looks like I'll need to order them online. Couple of local places can get either both races and one cone or just the other cone only but I didn't want to mix brands. ------- Re: Spindle bearings for my 101.21400 Posted by: anthrhodesx~xxaol.com Date: Mon Aug 12, 2013 2:02 pm ((PDT)) Stephen, All sorts of possibilities, fair likelihood it's the bearings. I don't recall if you've stated whether the lathe vibrates when you turn the spindle under power or whether you've observed problems with bad finish on a work piece when using the lathe to cut and what variations there are in these symptoms when operating at different speeds. When testing the spindle, how are you turning it? You've probably already tried these but here goes. Slack off all belts and turn the spindle by hand, obviously enough revolutions to verify the cyclical nature of the runout issue. Make certain that you get several repeats of the problem. This is just to verify that the problem is in the spindle assembly and not a drive issue. If the runout issue goes away using this method, the bearings aren't the problem; you may still want to replace them but you have other issues. Leaving the belts slack, make the same test with the back gears engaged. This doesn't seem likely to be the problem because the reduction ratio is somewhat over 1:6 but let's be thorough. Now, with the back gears disengaged, engage the belt between the countershaft and spindle, leaving the motor belt off, and turn the spindle by manually turning the pulley on the countershaft which receives drive from the motor. Test in each of the four belt positions. Repeat with back gears engaged. Next, install the motor belt on one of the positions, back gears disengaged, and turn the spindle by manually turning the countershaft pulley. Test all four spindle belt positions followed by same with the back gears engaged. Repeat with motor belt on the other ratio. These tests may or may not help but they are the most rational approach that comes to my mind. Anthony Berkeley, Calif. ------- Re: Spindle bearings for my 101.21400 Posted by: "bracketracerx~xxsbcglobal.net" Date: Mon Aug 12, 2013 9:22 pm ((PDT)) I did try it with the drive belt slacked and it was still there. Can't try anything else now, I already stripped it apart! I believe it's the bearing next to the 1"-10 threaded end of the spindle. Now that I have it off the spindle I can feel some roughness when I turn it in its race. I don't see anything wrong with it but it's not smooth like the smaller bearing on the other end. New bearings and races are ordered! Thanks for the help, Anthony! Stephen ------- Re: Spindle bearings for my 101.21400 Posted by: "bracketracerx~xxsbcglobal.net" Date: Sun Aug 18, 2013 3:38 pm ((PDT)) I thought I should post a follow up now that I have the new bearings installed. I bought the Timken brand bearings from a local dealer, numbers 07196 for both the races and 07079 and 07100 for the cones. What I got were separate cones and cups, they were not a "matched set" and are considered "standard" not "precision" bearings. They have no grading etched on the bearings. I cleaned everything and reassembled the lathe. I lightly tensioned the bearings, lubed it, and ran the lathe for about 45 min to warm it up. I then loosened the adjuster, retightened until the slack was taken up, and tightened it another two teeth. I attached a chuck and a dial indicator and I'm happy to report that my "hiccup" on the third revolution is GONE! Looks like the runout decreased as well, it's about .0005 now as best I can measure (my indicator is marked in .0005 increments and the needle flucuates just inbetween two of the marks.) I did cut the cages off the old bearings just to see what was wrong with them and honestly I see nothing, no rust, no dirt, no dents on the inner race. I still think a PO smacked a workpiece while it was in the chuck. It must have flat-spotted some of the rollers a tiny bit, too tiny to eyeball, at least for me! Thanks for the help guys! Stephen ------- Re: New bearings for my Craftsman 12" [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: "dhlh1984" thehairsx~xxoptilink.us Date: Mon Oct 21, 2013 9:52 am ((PDT)) I've had an interesting discussion with the rep at Timken. If you don't order the bearing number and race number with a -3 behind it you will get a class 2 bearing. I believe this is the reason some of the bearings out there priced so low are not really the bearings we need. Use caution when ordering bearings. Now on the bright side, Standard bearings, C-2 bearings made today are most likely as good or better than any C-3 bearing made in the 1940's and 50's. David Hair ------- Re: New bearings for my Craftsman 12" Posted by: "dhlh1984" thehairsx~xxoptilink.us Date: Mon Oct 21, 2013 4:54 pm ((PDT)) wa5cab wrote: > OK. But of course you can't count on it. Before I got in to this enough to get the standards and such, I bought a set of bearings which aren't marked for Class. Now I don't know whether or not I want to put the time into them to install them and see. However, I probably will, since there's nothing else to do with them. Robert D. Robert, Look at it this way. Everyone that bought the bearings without the -3 and installed them has been happy with them. I also tend to believe that the manufacturing of bearings has improved over the years to the point that they have to be as good as the bearings that came with the lathe when new. If you look at the Timken site they say at the top of some of the Taper bearing specs that standard is class 2. First I'm going to lock down the race I have now and see if that improves the quality cuts I get. If not I will be buying a set of standard grade bearings. I'm pretty happy with the cuts I get now, Every thing is workable, it's just that I don't like the looks of the little dips every once in a while in the cut so we will see how it goes. At least I didn't pay $128 for a used set on Ebay last night for a set that was 66 years old. David Hair ------- Re: New bearings for my Craftsman 12" Posted by: jerdalx~xxsbcglobal.net jtiers Date: Mon Oct 21, 2013 5:38 pm ((PDT)) Another thing to notice, is that many of the tolerances are rather close to each other. Among angular contact ball bearings, the difference between a good ABEC 5 and not-so-good ABEC 7 are small. Ditto the difference between an ABEC 3 and ABEC 5. Plus, again among angular contact ball bearings, the tolerances are NOT ON ACTUAL RUNOUT. You'd likely expect that the spec would cover runout of the completed bearing, but that is not so. The specs on the ACBBs are on the inner and outer races, independently. And some classes are different by only a tenth or so. Now, that certainly should imply a better bearing, don't get me wrong. But that's just the point.... it IMPLIES a better bearing. Within a class, there will be better, and not so good units, all of which DO met the class limits. The difference between a very good ABEC 5 and a crummy ABEC 7 is going to be much smaller than even the small variance that the spec shows. In that case, you pay much more and may be getting virtually the same product. One may presume that the roller bearing classes are similar. It may not make much difference to get the next better class, other than to your wallet. These things tend to operate according to a law that says the last little bits of refinement cost a disproportionate amount. Twice as good may cost 8 to 32 times more, if it is even available. Now, if your choice is not between two grades, but rather between a graded part and a "no grade" part, that is a different matter. At least a known grade, if honestly marked, gives you a documented level of component quality/accuracy. ------- Re: New bearings for my Craftsman 12" Posted by: wa5cabx~xxcs.com wa5cab Date: Mon Oct 21, 2013 6:58 pm ((PDT)) The thing that bothers me about the statement that Class 2 bearings today might be better than Class 3 in the 1940's is that by definition that should not be true unless they are saying that the QC equipment in the 1940's wasn't capable of measuring to Class 3 tolerances. If all Class 2 bearings today are as good as or better than Class 3, why sell them as class 2. These are after all hard physical standards that we're talking about, not something wishy-washy like human attitudes. Robert D. ------- Re: New bearings for my Craftsman 12" Posted by: wa5cabx~xxcs.com wa5cab Date: Mon Oct 21, 2013 8:42 pm ((PDT)) The maximum radial runout figures that I quoted the other night for ABMA Class 2 and Class 3 tapered roller bearings are total assembled runout. In other words, assuming light press fits on headstock casting bore and spindle, which is the normal case with the Atlas lathes, and Class 2 bearings, if you attach the dial indicator base to either the headstock or the ways and indicate the spindle next to the bearing (assuming that the spindle is round), the maximum allowable runout is 0.0015". However, that doesn't mean that it can't be less and the bearing still have been sold as a Class 2 if that's what they happened to be testing for the day the bearing was inspected. Robert Downs - Houston wa5cab dot com (Web Store) ------- Re: New bearings for my Craftsman 12" Posted by: jerdalx~xxsbcglobal.net jtiers Date: Tue Oct 22, 2013 5:48 am ((PDT)) In a short search, I was able to find this NSK publication. http://www.nskamericas.com/cps/rde/xbcr/na_en/Bearing_and_Linear_Rep lacement_Guide_Web.pdf I refer you to page A-4 of this publication. You will indeed find that there are a number of specs mentioned, including what appeaer to be "runout" specs. BUT this is stated to be on the inner OR outer race, NOT on the performance of the assembled bearings. RBEC, ABEC and ISO specs are referred to, although the detailed tables are not given. As for the "why" new bearings should be better than old, I have seen it stated in one of the items I looked at in searching for the above, that in past times, the very highest precision bearings of the present day were not made, the technology of the time allowed only the lower classes in general. The obvious implication is that a general upgrade in capability should lead to a larger amount of bearings in the highest classes, and a general "lift" in the "run" of bearings. One does not usually select ABEC 9 bearings from a run of no-grade, or ABEC 1. So, the resistor analogy may apply.... If all bearings are made better, then whatever ISN'T a "9" , or a "7" or "5" will be sold as a lower grade, but when the demand for high grade is satisfied, better ones may end up in lower classes. If all bearings are made better, then the higher classes occur more often, and the added expense to get them is less, leading to reduced need to "hold" all the "rare best parts" for the highest grades. The expense is not in MAKING the part, it is in VERIFYING that "this individual part" is a member of whatever class you are trying to sort for. The process is certainly "settable" for better or less good, in many ways including choice of machinery. But it isn't as if the manager comes along and turns a knob from "best" to "sorta OK" on the side of the machine when the demand for best bearings is satisfied. That would actually likely cost more. Getting a process tuned in for high precision is expensive. JT ------- 1940 v. later QC practiceRe: New bearings for my Craftsman 12" Posted by: "L. Garlinghouse" lhghousex~xxsuddenlink.net Date: Tue Oct 22, 2013 9:09 am ((PDT)) > If all Class 2 bearings today are as good as or better than Class 3, why sell them as class 2. These are after all hard physical standards that we're talking about, not something wishy-washy like human attitudes. Re: the sub thread about 1940 v. 2000+ technology/equipment and Robert's comments [posted below after my ramble]. Yes, I realize that Robert said "QC equipment" and I may have expanded that, a bit, but I think my points re still valid. The farther we go back, there is a whole study that documents that at one point a culture changing change would happen every 500 years or longer. After the industrial revolution the frequency started really speeding up. Now, computers and their programs change within months and well before most folks even learn how to use them. OK, so it is reasonable to suspect that whatever "best practices" may have been in 1940 were the results of implementation and understanding of, let's say, 1920 thoughts, technology and implementation and given the rapid changes brought about by WW2, far behind what "best practices" were in 1950. Some quick examples: When I was a "machine shop trainee" in the early 60s [not an apprentice -- not part of a defined apprentice program, thus "trainee" is the right term], micrometers capable of measuring to 1/10000" [0.000 1"] were there, but not common. A short time later they were common. I have some vernier calipers from an inspector that was in a WW2 Lockeheed aircraft plant in So.California that read in 1/1000" and 1/128". At one time in mass manufacturing, 1/128" was a "tight unit." Note that thanks to Henry Ford we started breaking the inch into 1000 parts -- probably around WWI or shortly thereafter -- hence the "Ford Scale" [actually a rule and not a scale] which most of us have in our tool boxes and keep losing. I think it should be borne in mind that even tho a "best practice" or simply a significant "better practice" is out there, before WW2 the soak time to grasp it, implement it and then finally make it actually work could take years and years. When the ISO 9000 thing was going around, I was in a position that I visited lots and lots of plants and I was apalled that most of them had nothing in the way of periodic calibration of measuring tools used in their plants, let alone care about traceability to some national standard. I worked in a plant that had been making gears for its line of world famous power tools for years and years. It wasn't until 1989 that a whole new hobbed gear characteristic was even discovered/acknowledged and the money put forth to buy the expensive machine that would measure it automatically. Afterwards gear and product improvement was amazing and the $$$ was considered well spent. Specifically to Robert's point, assuming that the standards do not change, in my gear example, once the new characteristic was acknowleged, we discovered that many of our "good gears" were not very good at all. Measuring and acknowedging things that will make good things bad can be a philosophical and political issue -- not necessarily one of technology, but with the same outcome. It was even later that management decided that maybe engineers might need personal computers. Up to then only secretaries need PCs. One tool designer brought in his own PC and CAD program because management simply wasn't up to speed. [Example of soak time lag for implementation of existing, proven "best practice."] So, I have no doubt at all that 1940 QC thinking/practices/effectiveness was no where near what was after WW2 and certainly after our Japanese Quality wake up call in the 1980s [even tho much of US industry never heard the call or went back to sleep]. Presumably the bearing industries were at the forefront of metrology and using new alloys and all the rest, but WW2 brought a whole new set of bearing failures not encountered previously, thus there is no way that 1940 technolgy/best QC practice would not be inferior to post WW2 approaches. Add another 1/2 century of wars and greater demands there should be no comparison between 1940 and 2010 QC best practices and effectiveness. Even allowing for the occasional incompetence of management and the cluelessness of the bean counters who have not been keeping up with the tools and technology and can't see beyond next quarter. Also the change in focus from "product control" to "process control" in QC philosophy was a game changer for some. Sorry for the length -- but I haven't been posting much, so I'm using my bandwidth all at once. I'll be quiet now. L.H. Arkansas USA ------- Re: New bearings for my Craftsman 12" Posted by: wa5cabx~xxcs.com Date: Wed Oct 23, 2013 9:18 pm ((PDT)) First, forget ABEC, unless you are talking about a 6" MK2, which we are not. ABEC specs have no bearing (pun intended) on the 618 or any Atlas 9", 10" or 12". Second, I didn't say that the standards had nothing to say about dimensional tolerances on the cup or main part of the cone alone. But as tolerances on the OD of the cup and ID of the cone aren't of any real concern beyond determining how difficult it is to disassemble or assemble the headstock, the only spec we are concerned with is the assembled radial runout. Third, as the minimum total assembled radial runout for Class 2 and Class 3 is both 0.0000", it is not inconceivable but is in fact probable that a random pick of four pieces each being sold as Class 2 will yield two bearings with less than 1.5 thou runout. The only problem is that you cannot count on it. So ye pays yer money and ye takes yer chances. I'm not going down the high spot/low spot rabbit hole. Robert D. ------ [atlas_craftsman] A short analysis of bearing requirements for small lathes Posted by: jerdalx~xxsbcglobal.net jtiers Date: Sun Oct 27, 2013 8:15 am ((PDT)) The question of bearings is a recurring one which draws a lot of opinions. The real question is: What does a very precise bearing really buy you? On ANY lathe, not just a "consumer" type as was sold in Sears (Atlas) or Wards (Logan), etc. I claim it buys you a LOT less than you think. Once you get into even the lowest "graded" bearing, I claim you are likely to be just fine. (The "no-grade" trailer axle bearings may be another issue, parts are likely not as well controlled.) Now, I do not care what you use in your machine. You can convert your 109 to use the highest class of bearing made, and I won't be concerned, it's your business. I'm just looking at what actually is needed in the machine. A precise bearing gets you a very small "runout" or eccentricity, of rotation. Sounds great, everyone would want that, right? After all, lathes are supposed to spin a part precisely. OK... When does that matter? DOES it matter? Take radial error..... commonly called 'runout", or eccentricity. That should "obviously" directly affect how round a part can be made, right? But does it really? The eccentricity of the inner or outer race is a "constant". Once the part is put in, it has a relatively fixed position, and the high or low spots will be in the same places relative to spindle or housing. When two high spots coincide, there is a high error, and it is always in the same spindle position, just like a chuck error. It is just 'there" and the factors that cancel the errors in a chuck also cancel this fixed error, because it does not change over any short time. I have to say short time, because bearing races can "creep" over longer times, turning on the shaft, or in the housing. That should not be a factor in the short time to make a particular part, however. If you use a 3 jaw chuck, bearing precision obviously does NOT matter, because the chuck is itself already "out" by several thousandths, typically. That can be 10 times larger than the bearing error, nullifying any effect the very precise bearing might have. AND, we all agree that if you chuck a part, and don't take it out of the chuck while you work, any errors in the chuck are irrelevant, they get canceled out. Only if you take the part out and put it back in do you have an issue, and bearings cannot help that. Ok, what about collets? They typically have an error around 0.001", unless you get very good ones costing well over $100 per each (you can check yours with an indicator). That's what you get with a $5 5C collet, or typical 3C, 3AT etc, and it is 3 times the error recently quoted for a mid-grade tapered roller bearing. Worn collets may be much worse. And, same things apply here as with a 3 jaw.... you can keep the part in until done and cancel most errors. Between centers work is similar to collets etc, so long as you leave the centers in place, and put the part back in the same position. Any constant errors will be canceled. A 4 jaw can ADJUST OUT a constant error. So again no big issue. The only time it would really matter is when you have an already precisely made part and you want to put it into a very precise holder to do more work that must be concentric with what you already did. That's what 4 jaw chucks are for, in our world.... so there's the answer, put it in the 4 jaw and adjust carefully. For radial runout, it seems that the precision of the bearing is almost irrelevant as far as any constant errors due to the actual eccentricity of the bearing parts. What we have left is varying errors. Ones that are not constant types like spindle, chuck, bearing race eccentricity, etc. What is left is variations in the only truly moving part, variations in the balls or rollers. They move around the races, always changing position in relation to all the other parts, and consequently are an unpredictable, non-constant source of error. An extra-large roller would move a "high spot" around as the bearing turned, and you would never know where it was. It could not be canceled out, and would cause an "out of round" condition in the part you were making. However, the balls or rollers are really made quite precisely, and for the level of precision we are talking about, I suggest they can be essentially ignored. They may easily be the most precisely made parts of the whole bearing, and are unlikely to vary in an amount much larger than a couple tenths at most, in any "graded" bearing. Far less than other error sources. The method of making very precise balls (or rollers) has been known for over 100 years, and has constantly improved in that time. Looks like radial precision isn't as big a deal as one might have thought. There is another form of error, "camming" or pumping of the spindle in and out as it turns. Bearings can cause that as well, due to imperfections in the races, or in the balls/rollers and there is little in the way of adjustment that can be done for it. All you can do is get a better bearing if that is a real problem for you. It will show itself in facing cuts, where the faced surface is not exactly at right angles to the axis of the spindle. I have not seen a problem with that, myself, and I doubt you will either. The error is typically rather small. But if it happened to be an issue for you, if, for instance, you want to make cylinder squares, or your own bearing races, it could be. Bottom line is that you should be able to use the lowest *graded variety* of bearing (not trailer bearings) in most any machine, and get just as good practical, observable, everyday performance as you would get in the same machine with a considerably better grade bearing. All you need is a maximum eccentricity of around 0.001", and you shouldn't even notice an issue. Any *graded* bearing should get you into that area. ------- Re: A short analysis of bearing requirements for small lathes Posted by: "Jon Elson" elsonx~xxpico-systems.com jmelson2 Date: Sun Oct 27, 2013 10:20 am ((PDT)) jerdalx~xxsbcglobal.net wrote: > What does a very precise bearing really buy you? > I claim it buys you a LOT less than you think. Right, I put the commodity grade bearings in my 10" Atlas years ago when rebuilding, and it was fine. Assuming the bearings were perfect, you'd still have the inaccuracies of the spindle as it was made, plus the effect of any wear and possible crashes on the spindle. Then, you probably have a chuck with backplate on the spindle, adding a little more error. All of this will likely swamp the error in new bearings. High-end machine shops often regrind the spindle internal taper after each bearing replacement, there are traveling outfits that perform this bearing+regrind service. They usually only take off a couple ten-thousandths of an inch. Jon ------- Spindle bearing dust covers [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: jwreyx~xxusa.net mondosmetals Date: Thu Dec 26, 2013 10:22 am ((PST)) The 10" and 12" lathes with Timken bearings have dust covers on either side of the bearing, on both ends of the spindle. Has anyone tried to substitute the dust covers with oil seals? What are your thoughts on doing this? raymond ------- Re: Spindle bearing dust covers Posted by: wa5cabx~xxcs.com Date: Thu Dec 26, 2013 11:47 am ((PST)) I wouldn't, for several reasons. The dust shields will discharge excess oil (if for example the lathe sits unused for a long time). Oil in bearings wears out over time. It picks up wear products which with seals would then get recirculated forever. With the dust shields and the constant refreshing of the oil supply, new oil slowly replaces old and wear products tend to get flushed out. The existing system apparently works and works well. "If it ain't broke, don't fix it". ------- [reaming a bearing to fit a spindle] 109 Lathe Bearing Size [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: "Jason Rossitto" jasongetsdownx~xxgmail.com Date: Sat Apr 5, 2014 1:27 pm ((PDT)) Hi folks, I have a Craftsman 109.20630 lathe and I need to replace the bearings on the stepped pulley (A-3106). My plan is to buy a 0.5" ID 0.75" OD Oilite bearing, ream the inside, and turn down the outside. I've never done something like this so before I spend $40 on a reamer, I want to make sure I'm getting the right one. There are two different spindle drawings in the files on the Yahoo group site. One calls the diameter 0.551 and the other 0.550. I'm guessing I should just measure mine and buy a reamer that matches, but should I ream it to the exact size or allow a half thou of clearance? If I can't find one that matches exactly how far over sized is acceptable? Thanks! Jason ------- Re: 109 Lathe Bearing Size Posted by: "Scott Henion" shenionx~xxshdesigns.org Date: Sat Apr 5, 2014 1:57 pm ((PDT)) The spindle on my 109 was 0.551"/ Scott G. Henion, Stone Mountain, GA Craftsman 12x36 lathe: http://shdesigns.org/Craftsman12x36 Welding pages and homemade welder: http://shdesigns.org/Welding ------- Re: 109 Lathe Bearing Size Posted by: "Jonathan H Bateman" jhblagx~xxgmail.com Date: Sat Apr 5, 2014 2:03 pm ((PDT)) Check the article (one of the two rebuild articles on the 109 site) which notes .550 as the original size. Do you have a new spindle? Usually necessary. If you expect to use the old one, mic it at several points and check for straightness. Perfect is close enough. This weakly built lathe cannot tolerate any looseness anywhere; one thou os is barely tolerable. I can lend you my primitive change-out tool n/c if needed. Don't use press without internal support......BLJHB ------- Re: 109 Lathe Bearing Size Posted by: "Doc" n8as1x~xxaol.com docn8as Date: Sat Apr 5, 2014 2:31 pm ((PDT)) suggest an adjustable hand reamer ...ck enco, wt tool, victor machinery exchange, last price i remember was under #15 for a 1/2 inch +/- one .. nuts at top & bottom push blades on an incline larger & smaller....carbon steel is cheaper & just fine for hand reamimg ..even machine reamimg if CAREFUL ......these are also great for reamimg out shotgun chokes that are too tight ...now at 82, i cud stand having some of that choke BACK. you WILL need clearane....shud be able to keep your hand on headstock comfortably after bearing warms up ...i wud not want more than one thou clearance on my one in spindle crftsmn 6x18 ......my guess is 1/2 thou & w/ adjustable reamer if it runs hot, open some more. best wishes doc FWIW ...handbooks give running clearances for various shafts AND various classes from watches on down ...no need to buy a new one anything later than 1925. shud be fine & also easier to use ......back when a machinist was lucky to have had an 8th grade education. ------- Re: 109 Lathe Bearing Size Posted by: "L. Garlinghouse" lhghousex~xxsuddenlink.net Date: Sun Apr 6, 2014 5:19 am ((PDT)) I think you have the process backwards. Turn the outside, press in place and then ream the ID. The tighter the press fit, the smaller the ID becomes. Maybe this does NOT apply to your situation, but in my experience playing with single thou clearances and bushings pressed in tightly in non-lathe applications the ID sizing the ID is the final step. Go along with what those that have already done what you are talking about, but maybe they missed your sequencing if it is incorrect. Good luck, L.H. in Arkansas US ------- Re: 109 Lathe Bearing Size Posted by: "Doc" n8as1x~xxaol.com docn8as Date: Sun Apr 6, 2014 9:26 pm ((PDT)) YES..tnx ..good point ..... i shud have mentioned that ...i wud expect the bushing will need to be reamed to size after insertion ...they almost always are undersized after insertion. doc ------- Re: 109 Lathe Bearing Size Posted by: wa5cabx~xxcs.com wa5cab Date: Sun Apr 6, 2014 9:56 am ((PDT)) Jason, I agree with LH. If you are going to ream or line bore the bushings to fit the spindle, the proper way to do it is to fit the bushings to the spindle first. And then ream them in place. Also, the best way in which to hold the bushings to reduce the OD is with an expanding mandrel or an expanding 5C "collet". Fortunately, there are relatively cheap Chinese made examples of both routinely for sale. Robert D. ------- Re: 109 Lathe Bearing Size Posted by: "Jay Greer" redwitch1x~xxearthlink.net Date: Sun Apr 6, 2014 11:07 am ((PDT)) HI Jason, I am assuming you are speaking of the counter shaft and its cone stepped pulley. I just finished overhauling my own as the shaft was shot and so were the bearings. I used the same Oilite bearings you mention and used a press to put them in. I made up a new shaft to replace the one that was worn beyond redemption. The material was .5" dis ground and polished steel stock that required milling two flats for the driving pulley's setting cap screws to lock against. I ran a long reamer, .550" through and between the two bearings in order to insure alignment of the bore. There are holes drilled on the top surface of the bearing housing on my counter shaft yoke that were not bored through the old bearings. Even though I used Oilite bushings on the yoke, I drilled them through to allow better lubrication of the shaft. It may be overkill but it works very well. I replaced the old drive belt with a 3/8" segmented belt by Fenner Drives. It runs quieter than the old one did. Best Chips, Jay Greer ------- L3-320 Countershaft Bracket Oilite Bearing replacement. [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: db45acpx~xxyahoo.com db45acp Date: Wed Aug 27, 2014 9:53 pm ((PDT)) I am looking for a few tips on removing and reinstalling the Oilite bearings/ bushings from the L3-320 Countershaft Bracket for a Craftsman lathe. I am aware that Loctite or some other bonding agent should be used for the reinstallation of the new bearings to help hold them from possibly spinning, but need a recommendation on what type that would be. I'd appreciate hearing from anyone who has completed this repair or anyone with a simple, brilliant suggestion for a solution. Thanks for your help, Dan in Nevada ------- Re: L3-320 Countershaft Bracket Oilite Bearing replacement. Posted by: "Carvel Webb" carvelwx~xxabsamail.co.za cwlathes Date: Wed Aug 27, 2014 11:34 pm ((PDT)) Dan, I would be interested in other opinions but I was told NOT to use Loctite – or any other similar compound – to keep them in place – it would block the bushing pores and stop the oil getting through them from the oil cup. Regards, Carvel ------- Re: L3-320 Countershaft Bracket Oilite Bearing replacement. Posted by: "David Hair" thehairsx~xxoptilink.us dhlh1984 Date: Thu Aug 28, 2014 1:54 am ((PDT)) You could always put a light knurl on the outside of the bushing. D.Hair ------- Re: L3-320 Countershaft Bracket Oilite Bearing replacement. Posted by: wa5cabx~xxcs.com wa5cab Date: Thu Aug 28, 2014 8:05 am ((PDT)) Dan, I agree with Carvel. If the bushing is porous bronze (AKA Oilite), using Loctite or any other adhesive will seal the outside of the bushing and it will not oil properly. AFAIK, on any Atlas machine application of metal bushings other than the spindle bearings on the 101.0730x and keyed bearings in the change gear train, the bushings should be a light press fit. If the bushing is a slip fit (and isn't plastic), either the bore is worn or the bushing isn't the right size. A little bit of the former problem can be overcome by mounting the bushing on an expanding mandrel and knurling the OD. However, I don't know what this will do to the porosity if the bushing is porous. Robert Downs - Houston wa5cab dot com (Web Store) MVPA 9480 ------- Re: L3-320 Countershaft Bracket Oilite Bearing replacement. Posted by: "James Irwin" jirwin1x~xxaustin.rr.com jimirwin2001 Date: Thu Aug 28, 2014 9:11 am ((PDT)) Knurling will transfer to tighter fit of bearing to shaft. Not a good idea! So what supposed problem are you seeking to solve? ------- Re: L3-320 Countershaft Bracket Oilite Bearing replacement. Posted by: "Jay Greer" redwitch1x~xxearthlink.net jaygreer65 Date: Thu Aug 28, 2014 10:16 am ((PDT)) Dan, I replaced mine by checking for an slight interference fit, which it was. Then I just pressed the bearings in. I use a light machine oil that is intended for Jeweler's lathes. I did bore the fill holes through in order to guarantee greater distribution of the oil. The counter shaft has been fine for over ten years so far. Jay Greer ------- Re: L3-320 Countershaft Bracket Oilite Bearing replacement. Posted by: "Dan Buchanan" db45acpx~xxyahoo.com db45acp Date: Thu Aug 28, 2014 10:38 am ((PDT)) Thanks Carvel, Robert, David, Jim, On the left or outboard side, the bracket has been bored out and has a loose fitting"Bunting" branded oiled sleeve bearing. The boring made the hole 1.128" on one end and 1.129" on the other across the 1.50" length of the hole. The Bunting bearing takes a 3/4" shaft but is 1.126" OD and is loose with a clearance of about 1 or 2 thou in the bracket hole. It passes through with almost no effort but does drag a little. Stll, too loose. The right or inboard side bushing appears to be original stock and is tight in the bracket hole. I was concerned on how to approach removing it, but figured it out, pressing it through with a 6" machine vise. Pressing it back in should be the same, assuming the replacement arrives as a "press fit". For the oversize bearing, I am assuming the new Oilite I have ordered from McMaster Carr (3/4 x 1.125 x 1.50) will also be a loose fit. Hence the question about Loctite. Keeping in mind the potential sealing of the bearing with a bonder, I thought about just lightly knurling the ends with about 1/4" of knurls and perhaps one near the center. That should ensure a good press fit. I also thought about using a light smear of JB Weld or Loctite Bearing Mount 680, again, at the ends of the bearing only. My methodology is to first replace the unaltered right, inboard bushing, then the left, outboard. Using the new 3/4 shaft, my theory is that it will help align the oversized bearing with the new stock size bearing and the Loctice or JB Weld will act as a "Bedding" to fill the gaps and allow the bearing to align but then be held tight when it cures. Time and space are a premium right now so I'm trying to avoid buying a larger bearing and turning it down to a press fit. If it comes to that, I'll do it, but I think I have thought this out fairly well so far, with you help. I just want to get this project finished so I can get the lathe sold and out the door. Comments? Thanks, Dan ------- Re: L3-320 Countershaft Bracket Oilite Bearing replacement. Posted by: "James Irwin" jirwin1x~xxaustin.rr.com jimirwin2001 Date: Thu Aug 28, 2014 10:44 am ((PDT)) Using a compound is a bad idea. Besides, what will stick to an oil impregnated bearing anyways? Use a light knurl over the whole length OD, but only enough to make it finger tight against pressing it out, AND enough to reduce ID enough for zero clearance fit to a smooth shaft. Jim I ------- Re: L3-320 Countershaft Bracket Oilite Bearing replacement. Posted by: "Carvel Webb" carvelwx~xxabsamail.co.za cwlathes Date: Thu Aug 28, 2014 11:17 am ((PDT)) Dan, One “trick” is to put a bead of JB weld around the outside of each end, allow it to harden, then machine for a snug fit and press it in –- that would leave the bulk of the bearing unaffected insofar as oil porosity is concerned. Regards, Carvel ------- Re: L3-320 Countershaft Bracket Oilite Bearing replacement. Posted by: "Dan Buchanan" db45acpx~xxyahoo.com db45acp Date: Thu Aug 28, 2014 12:42 pm ((PDT)) Carvel, I like that idea. Certainly simple & easy. Thanks for the idea. Dan ------- Re: L3-320 Countershaft Bracket Oilite Bearing replacement. Posted by: "David Hair" thehairsx~xxoptilink.us dhlh1984 Date: Thu Aug 28, 2014 12:54 pm ((PDT)) Dan, don't use JB weld for a bedding compound. If you want to use 620 on the end only that sounds OK. You can use heat to loosen the bedding if you have to turn down a larger bushing. If you use JB weld you will have to heat it much hotter. D.Hair ------- Re: L3-320 Countershaft Bracket Oilite Bearing replacement. Posted by: "Dan Buchanan" db45acpx~xxyahoo.com db45acp Date: Thu Aug 28, 2014 1:09 pm ((PDT)) GOod point David, Thanks. Dan ------- Re: L3-320 Countershaft Bracket Oilite Bearing replacement. Posted by: "Richard Marchi" rfmarchix~xxaol.com marchirichard Date: Thu Aug 28, 2014 3:47 pm ((PDT)) I'll chime in and agree with those who have advised against using locktite or other adhesives on an oilite bearing. I also don't agree with the idea of drilling a radial hole to get oil to the shaft. Oilite is used in fairly low speed, low load applications and will last for years with no additional lubrication in these undemanding applications. If you have an oil feed hole to, but not through, the bearing, it will last forever. As far as the fit is concerned, the idea of a light knurl seems reasonable. What I used to do is take a fine, sharp layout punch and lightly tap a few divots at the circumference of the oilite bushing and the housing to get some deformation and friction on both ends of the diameter away from the shaft. You don't need much. It worked for me. Good luck. Dick Richard Marchi 600 Water Street, SW NBU8-2 Gangplank Marina Slip B-22 Washington, DC 20024 202-255-5524 ------- Re: L3-320 Countershaft Bracket Oilite Bearing replacement. Posted by: "Dan Buchanan" db45acpx~xxyahoo.com db45acp Date: Thu Aug 28, 2014 5:24 pm ((PDT)) Thanks Dick. I'll try the punch since I don't have a mandrel, and I need to get it done. Dan ------- Re: L3-320 Countershaft Bracket Oilite Bearing replacement. Posted by: jerdalx~xxsbcglobal.net jtiers Date: Thu Aug 28, 2014 6:15 pm ((PDT)) Re: [atlas_craftsman] L3-320 Countershaft Bracket Oilite Bearing replacement. It's pretty common to have to ream the bushings. A reasonable press fit will cause the bushing to close up a bit. Yes, it is supposed to be a calculated fit, but they aren't that precise in many cases. A sharp reamer that cuts and does not "smear" the surface won't be much problem for porosity. A dull one might nearly seal it by crushing, displacing, but not cutting the metal. ------- Re: L3-320 Countershaft Bracket Oilite Bearing replacement. Posted by: "Dan Buchanan" db45acpx~xxyahoo.com db45acp Date: Thu Aug 28, 2014 6:44 pm ((PDT)) Thanks, Jerry. I have a nice new 3/4" reamer standing by, ready for the job. Dan ------- atlas th42 parts [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: erich.steffenx~xxgmail.com erich.steffen Date: Tue Jan 6, 2015 9:44 am ((PST)) Hi all, I have a th42 and one of the bushings is seized in the sleeve on one of the gears. Can I repair this or is it best to try and locate a new bushing and sleeve for the gear? I believe the part numbers are 9-70A and 9-73A. TIA Erich ------- Re: atlas th42 parts Posted by: jwreyx~xxusa.net mondosmetals Date: Tue Jan 6, 2015 12:52 pm ((PST)) I have successfully pushed a stuck bushing out using a vice and two stubs of steel pipe. One pipe slightly larger than the width of the bushing across the keys, and one pipe slightly smaller than the diameter of the hole through the hub of the gear. Set them up on opposite sides of the gear/bushing assembly in the vice and turn the vice handle. The bushing ends up loose inside the larger stub of pipe. I am not going to say you can't break a gear this way, these is some risk. Success depends on your skill setting this up and care in applying pressure from the vice. The screw on a bench vice is capable of applying several tons of pressure so it should go pretty easy. A dose of your favorite penetrating oil will help, too. raymond ------- Re: atlas th42 parts Posted by: erich.steffenx~xxgmail.com erich.steffen Date: Tue Jan 6, 2015 6:13 pm ((PST)) Thanks Raymond. I was able to get it apart tonight without breaking anything thanks to your help. And of course I have a follow up question or two. The bushing was pretty galled. I am sure I can clean it up some but I am wondering if I should look for a new one. Also, there does not appear to be any way to lubricate these bushings. Is disassembling the only way to lubricate these bushings? Do these bushings seize frequently? Thanks again. I really appreciate your help. Erich ------- Re: atlas th42 parts Posted by: "Scott Henion" shenionx~xxshdesigns.org shdesigns2003 Date: Tue Jan 6, 2015 6:22 pm ((PST)) > The bushing was pretty galled. Make a new one; easy to do. > Do these bushings seize frequently? Should not seize as they are oiled. I add some oil each time I assemble a new set of gears. Scott G. Henion, Stone Mountain, GA Craftsman 12x36 lathe: http://shdesigns.org/Craftsman12x36 Welding pages and homemade welder: http://shdesigns.org/Welding ------- Re: atlas th42 parts Posted by: wa5cabx~xxcs.com wa5cab Date: Tue Jan 6, 2015 9:46 pm ((PST)) Erich. You should go through the oiling procedure each day before using the machine. One squirt on each end of each gear hub will get a little oil into the bushing. I've never seen a seized bushing. And of course, whenever you change gears, clean the bushings and oil them as you reassemble. On the galled bushing, you didn't specify but I assume the 9-70A double- keyed bushing was seized on the 9-73A shouldered sleeve. If so, run a reamer through the bushing and clean up the sleeve with a flat file if the sleeve has any high spots. Then assemble gear, bushing and sleeve on the quadrant (banjo or change gear bracket) and rotate it and see how it feels. Compare it to one of the others. If it has no more slop that the others, lube it and use it. But I would start looking for a replacement bushing and either make or find another sleeve. Robert Downs - Houston ------- on the cost of new Clausing parts [atlas618lathe] Posted by: curtis.normanx~xxcomcast.net crackerfactory03 Date: Tue Feb 10, 2015 2:30 pm ((PST)) Hi guys! Just thought I would share this bit of info with those of you thinking about contacting Clausing for new parts for the Atlas 618 lathe. Recently I had acquired an old 618 that needed some gears in better shape than what were with it and I got those from a couple of vendors on Ebay. Those look pretty good. Taking the lathe apart, I decided that it could use new bearings. So I (naively) called Clausing service for a price, but they were out and told me they would get back with the information (I would not commit to buying since I was leery and wanted to know the price). I figured I would not hear from them again, so armed with the correct Timken bearing stock numbers, I called the local bearing supply company and here was the breakdown of cost: Two bearing "cups" Timken # 07196 x~xx $7.11 each, total: $14.22 One "cage" # 07100: $16.39 One "cage" # 07079: $27.71 Grand total....$58.32, and I made the purchase. Now two weeks later here is the Clausing price that arrives via email: Front spindle bearing (the whole cup and cage unit): $96.60 Rear spindle bearing: $143.16 Total: $239.76 A $181.99 difference!!??? Needless to say, I was shocked and glad that I had just bought the bearings at the local supply house. Since the bearings I bought new are all in Timken branded boxes, I can't begin to understand how Clausing can justify a markup like that. Curtis ------- Re: on the cost of new Clausing parts Posted by: wa5cabx~xxcs.com wa5cab Date: Tue Feb 10, 2015 4:24 pm ((PST)) Curtis, Timken today makes tapered roller bearing in four classes (tolerances or precision) from considerably better than floor sweepings up to some that you would probably have to take out a second mortgage to buy. I've copied the chart below. The left column is Timken, the right is ABMA. As you can see, not all Timken bearings are equal. I've talked to Timken about this and confirmed that if you walk in to a supplier and just ask for the bearing by part number, you get Class C (box and bearing is unmarked for Class). I asked Clausing once about this but the person on the phone didn't understand what I was asking (it wasn't Jolene) so I didn't get any answer. However, in earlier years, Atlas did 100% receipt inspection in what was essentially a "test to quality" program. I assume that they are either still doing that or are paying extra for either Class B or Class A. What you bought were Class C. As a practical matter, few of us are good enough to tell the difference. But that's most of the reason for the price difference. Note that Timken no longer sells any bearings rated ABMA Class 4 or Class 2. Timken Standards (Alpha are Timken - Numeric are equivalent ABMA) >From lowest to highest precision Class (none) / 4 Class (none) / 2 Class C / 3 Class B / 0 Class A / 00 Class AA / 000 Robert Downs - Houston wa5cab dot com (Web Store) MVPA 9480 ------- Re: on the cost of new Clausing parts Posted by: gdwrnch40x~xxyahoo.com gdwrnch40 Date: Wed Feb 11, 2015 9:40 am ((PST)) Here is what i found on Timkens website. Bearing Precision Levels Machine tool builders can choose from different levels or classes of bearing precision to meet their specific requirements. Timken tapered roller bearings are available in a complete range of precision classes. This table provides broad guidelines for bearing class selection. From lowest to highest precision Class C / 3 Low precision machines: Drills, Conventional lathes, Milling machines, Precision gear drives Class B / 0 NC lathes, Milling/boring machines, Machining centers Class A / 00 Grinding machines, Jig boring machines, Workpiece spindles, (cylindrical grinder) Class AA / 000 High accuracy machines, Precision measuring instruments, Special applications ------- Super 7 headstock bearings [myfordlathes] Posted by: "Steve Talbot" steve.talbotx~xxtiscali.co.uk stevtalbot Date: Sat Feb 21, 2015 5:57 am ((PST)) I am just replacing the spindle angular contact bearings in my S7 headstock. They have to go back to back, but looking at the bearings both sides seem the same. Can anyone please tell me how to determine which is the back side of the bearing. Many thanks Steve T ------- Re: Super 7 headstock bearings Posted by: "john baird" alexandra.leavingx~xxyahoo.co.uk Date: Sat Feb 21, 2015 6:33 am ((PST)) The inner race, has a thin and thick side. What bearing number are you using? Regards jb ------- Re: Super 7 headstock bearings Posted by: "Steve Talbot" steve.talbotx~xxtiscali.co.uk stevtalbot Date: Sat Feb 21, 2015 6:40 am ((PST)) Hi John, Many thanks for replying. KSM RLS5-2RS Regards, Steve T ------- Re: Super 7 headstock bearings Posted by: "Steve Talbot" steve.talbotx~xxtiscali.co.uk stevtalbot Date: Sat Feb 21, 2015 6:48 am ((PST)) Sorry John, I gave you the nos. for the countershaft bearings. I will send the correct info later as I don't have the correct info with me. Regards Steve T ------- Re: Super 7 headstock bearings Posted by: "Bob Hamilton" bobx~xxhamilton-bob.freeserve.co.uk ukdiverbob Date: Sat Feb 21, 2015 9:34 am ((PST)) Hi Steve Although they appear to be just ball races, they are actually a type of thrust race. If you look at the outer race (a bit difficult to describe this), there is a thin and a thick side. Then look at the inner race -- it is the same but opposite. With the balls in between the two races, it becomes obvious in which direction the most thrust would be taken. Now, the term Back to Back is actually correct and generally refers to the “thick” sides of both bearings facing each other. Hope that makes sense Regards Bob ------- Re: Super 7 headstock bearings Posted by: "Steve Talbot" steve.talbotx~xxtiscali.co.uk stevtalbot Date: Sun Feb 22, 2015 12:11 am ((PST)) Thanks for that Bob, I think I have now sorted it out. Regards Steve T ------- Re: New Member with a 101.07403 12"x30" [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: wa5cabx~xxcs.com wa5cab Date: Fri Jun 26, 2015 8:36 pm ((PDT)) In a message dated 06/26/2015 08:38:58 AM Central Daylight Time, atlas_craftsmanx~xxyahoogroups.com writes: > Scott, > I think I've emailed you personally from your website, thanks for the > help in that regard and for the info here. I think you provided me > the spindle removal instructions a month or 2 ago. > Thrust bearing is the tapered bearings at the front and rear of the > spindle. They react against the thrust generated during operation. > Thanks, Jody Jody, It's just terminology but normally a thrust bearing carries only axial load, often in only one direction. It doesn't usually carry a radial load. In common practice when you are referring to an Atlas or Atlas/Craftsman lathe and use the term "thrust bearing", you are referring to the thrust bearing in either the babbit bearing 10" or 12" lathes or in the sleeve bearing 101.07300 or 101.07301 6" lathes. Tapered roller bearing pairs carry both thrust in both directions, and radial load and wouldn't normally be referred to as thrust bearings. The Atlas Timken headstocks don't have any bearings referred to as thrust bearings. Robert Downs - Houston wa5cab dot com (Web Store) MVPA 9480 ------- Issue with spindle bearings on 10" model D [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: mattbrandsemax~xxyahoo.com mattbrandsema Date: Sun Oct 4, 2015 9:20 pm ((PDT)) Hello, I have made a few post here already and you guys always help me out and have such good answers. I am having an issue with the bearings on my 10" lathe and was wondering if anyone could help me out. First, I want to say that I believe this lathe has been restored once in the past. There are many subtle signs of restoration work done around the machine. So the issue is, the main bearing caps for the spindle cannot be tightened at all in any amount otherwise the spindle locks up. I literally just have to finger tighten them, anything more causes binding. Because of this, sometimes while in operation the bolts will naturally spin from vibrations (specifically on the rear cap) and tighten the spindle. It has been bad enough to cause the spindle to stop rotating whilst the machine is on. Most of the time the machine is fine, but sometimes it acts up like this. I removed the caps and found that the person who I think restored this machine put a bronze (maybe copper. It is some soft metal) shim in the bearing. My guess is that he had the bearings bored out and used the bronze shim to fill in the space. I forgot to take a picture of the bearings but from what I remember, they seemed pretty scored up. How can I fix this issue? Any thoughts??? ------- Re: Issue with spindle bearings on 10" model D Posted by: fuzzywalrusx~xxyahoo.com fuzzywalrus Date: Sun Oct 4, 2015 10:24 pm ((PDT)) I would recommend that you replace the shim if you removed it. If the spindle won't turn after you tighten the bolts add a .002 shim and tighten the front bolts. while the rear bolts are loose. If the spindle will not turn add another.002 shim. If it turns then do the same to the rear bearing cap. The spindle needs to have shims removed until it will not turn, and added so that it will turn without heating up. Be sure that it ( the spindle ) will turn and not heat up with as few shims as possible. Also make sure to shim each side of each cap the same. Good luck and have fun making chips ------- Re: Issue with spindle bearings on 10" model D Posted by: "Carvel Webb" carvelwx~xxabsamail.co.za cwlathes Date: Mon Oct 5, 2015 12:09 am ((PDT)) Matt, The 10D would have come with a ‘shim pack’ – i.e. a group of shims loosely stuck together on one end such that as the lathe wore, one could peel off a shim, or shims to maintain roughly a 1 thou running clearance with the caps firmly bolted down. So as “Fuzzy walrus” has explained you need to reinstate enough shim such that the spindle can rotate freely but without excessive play with the caps bolted down. What I did with mine when I had it was to use two sets of automotive feeler gauges for the adjustment, and then made up the shim pack according to the thickness calculated from the feeler gauges. Regards, Carvel ------- Re: Issue with spindle bearings on 10" model D Posted by: wa5cabx~xxcs.com wa5cab Date: Sun Oct 4, 2015 11:19 pm ((PDT)) Matt, I assume that you mean that someone put a brass shim on top of and under the spindle bearing journals. First, make sure that he cut an oil hole in the top one so that oil can get through to the journals. He must have removed all of the shim packs from under the bearing caps. What you need to do is get some 0.002" stainless shim material and cut out a few pieces to match the mating surfaces of the caps and headstock. Install the left bearing cap but tighten the screws only finger tight. And pull out the Direct Drive pin in the bull gear. Squirt some oil on top of the right spindle journal. Put one shim under both sides of the right bearing cap, insert the screws and torque them to 20 or 25 lb-ft. Try to turn the spindle. According to the instructions for adjusting babbit bearings on page 10 of all of the early (1937 dated) MOLO's, the spindle should turn "with a slight drag". Put a little oil in the oil cup and turn the spindle through a few revolutions before deciding. If it is too loose, remove one of the shims and repeat. If it is still too tight, add one shim to only one side and repeat. If still too tight, add one shim to the other side and repeat. Etc. When satisfied with the feel of the right bearing, loosen the screws in the right cap and repeat the process with the left bearing. When satisfied, tighten and torque all four screws. Confirm that it still turns with a little drag. The MOLO also says that if running at a spindle RPM above 805, loosen all four cap screws 1/8 to 1/4 turn. Don't forget to re-tighten them when you slow down. Robert Downs - Houston wa5cab dot com (Web Store) MVPA 9480 ------- Re: Issue with spindle bearings on 10" model D Posted by: "Pete Mclaughlin" pete_mclaughlin_93555x~xxyahoo.com Date: Mon Oct 5, 2015 12:09 am ((PDT)) Consider either pouring new babbitt bearings in the headstock or buying a Timken Tapered bearing headstock for your lathe. I poured new babbitt for my Atlas 10F several years ago and it worked like new after that. However I found that babbitt bearings cannot run at high speed so I bought a Timken Tapered Bearing headstock and that is what I am using now. The Timken tapered bearing headstock holds a closer fit (less play) so the surface finish on my parts improved. Sincerely Pete McLaughlin ------- Re: Issue with spindle bearings on 10" model D Posted by: "brokenwrench1 ." brokenwrenchx~xxgmail.com brokewrench Date: Mon Oct 5, 2015 1:03 am ((PDT)) This lathe most likely came out with poured Babbit and was converted. These old Babbit headstocks had their pluses and minuses. My uncle had one. They are not to be used for extended high speed operation without installing auto oilers on the bearings. If it were mine I would look for a timken bearing headstock from ebay to replace it. Robert Halbrook ------- keyed mitre gear bushing oil channel on 10F lathe [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: aeroronx~xxbellsouth.net aeroronx~xxbellsouth.net Date: Sun Dec 20, 2015 9:19 am ((PST)) There is an oil channel from a carriage apron oil hole to the bearing stanchion 046-036 that holds the keyed lead screw mitre gear. However, I don't have a matching hole in the bushing. Isn't there supposed to be one? It seems odd to me that Atlas would use an open channel that could invite debris instead of a hole passage, so I'm hesitant to drill a hole through the bushing. (I might, anyway.) My present parts' wear is apparent on both the bushing and mitre gear with a total diametric clearance all around of about 0.010". Any comments? Ron Crowell Photo https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/atlas_craftsman/attachments/1666955142 keyed mitre gear bearing.jpg ------- Re: keyed mitre gear bushing oil channel on 10F lathe Posted by: jwreyx~xxusa.net mondosmetals Date: Sun Dec 20, 2015 1:18 pm ((PST)) That bearing is (or should be) SAE 841 (Oilite) bronze. This material is formed by sintering powdered bronze which is then impregnated with oil. As the machine operates and the surfaces warm the bearing sweats oil lubricating the shaft. When the machine is shut down and the surfaces cool, free oil is re-absorbed into the porous sintered bronze. There are no seals so small amounts of oil are lost due to weep while operating. Oil added at the apron finds it way along the groove and is absorbed into the bearing replacing that which is lost due to weep. Over application of oil at the apron is just lost as overflow and drips to the table or into the chip tray. In some models of these lathes the countershaft bearings are also sintered bronze. On my machine there is an oil cup on each of the bearings at the ends of the countershaft but there is no (or was no -- I replaced these bearings) hole through the bearing. I need to fill these two cups with a few drops of fresh oil about once a month. raymond ------- Re: keyed mitre gear bushing oil channel on 10F lathe Posted by: aeroronx~xxbellsouth.net aeroronx~xxbellsouth.net Date: Sun Dec 20, 2015 3:14 pm ((PST)) I agree, the keyed miter gear bushing needs oil...I have already drilled the missing hole in the bushing. Since my gear's key is very worn, I have ordered another good used one along with its bushed stanchion. I might consider putting a 'canopy' over the open channel since it had gritty gunk in it when I disassembled the apron. Ron Crowell ------- Re: keyed mitre gear bushing oil channel on 10F lathe Posted by: jwreyx~xxusa.net mondosmetals Date: Sun Dec 20, 2015 5:22 pm ((PST)) Hello Ron: That gritty gunk is going to flow through the hole you put in the bearing and increase the wear rate on both the bearing and the shaft it supports. A canopy is not likely going to be adequate for keeping fine grit out. What we don't see is the fine dust that is in the air all around us all the time. When machining metal microscopic particles are produced which can drift in the atmosphere for a surprisingly long time and can get into areas that though covered are not sealed. That's the gunk you observed. Later models of the Craftsman Commercial have a pipe-cleaner wick to deliver the oil to that same place, and two others in the apron.* The wick will deliver oil via capillary action while trapping grit and dust reducing the likelihood that it will reach the points requiring lubrication. See this file in the files section: "Craftsman Lathe 12 101.28980_28990.pdf" "Setup, Operation & Illustrated Parts (needs cleanup)" See page 16 (pdf page 19) item 60 in the drawing. * Of course there is a distribution device in there too on those models. See items 55 and 53, same drawing. I have seen, and probably have a copy of, an exploded parts drawing that shows the "pipe cleaner" wick with three distribution legs. If I find it I will get it posted to the files section. raymond ------- Re: Atlas 10F lathe headstock spindle bearings [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: jwreyx~xxusa.net mondosmetals Date: Sun Dec 20, 2015 11:18 pm ((PST)) As has been discussed in some forum, and I thought this one (I am subscribed to three that focus on Atlas built machines), the date engraved on the bearings is not necessarily the date the lathe was built. I would rather doubt that would be the case anyways, the concept does not stand the test of logic. Far more likely the date engraved on the bearing is the date that the bearing passed incoming inspection after they arrived at the Atlas manufacturing facility from the vendor (Timken). So to have one piece of the pair (cup and cone) being dated a month or more later than the other part of the pair is not to be unexpected. As for the extra numeral "3" being engraved on the pair in focus of this discussion, I suspect this identified the inspector qualifying this set of bearings. Being that we have no other observed data on which to base my suspicion this is open for debate. Have at it! raymond ------- Re: Atlas 10F lathe headstock spindle bearings Posted by: jerdalx~xxsbcglobal.net jtiers Date: Sun Dec 20, 2015 11:27 pm ((PST)) Well, the same "3" being on similar bearings from a far different manufacturer, AND the same machine having dates in 1944 and 1946. I'd bet it is not incoming, but the date of passing OUTGOING spec at Timken. In 1944, production of bearings would likely have been allocated. So the fact that Benchmaster got them probably means they were surplused out after the government POs were canceled following the end of the war. Unlikely they would have gotten so many extra during the war that they would still have some in 1946. Either way, it looks as if the same marking at widely different places would have to be a Timken mark, and not something specific to a manufacturer. The odds of two companies at opposite ends of the country having the same internal marks is low. (Michigan and L.A.) Jerry ------- Re: Atlas 10F lathe headstock spindle bearings Posted by: jeffwoods95x~xxyahoo.com jeffwoods95 Date: Tue Dec 22, 2015 5:02 pm ((PST)) I'm not an ace machinist, but semi-retired rotating apparatus journeyman. Anything engraved would be after the final grinding of the precision surfaces. The date would be the date of the bearing manufacture, and the number would be the class. In other words, regardless of the precision spec to meet, Timken would begin with the same forging, and then date them and ID the grade upon completion. Just my two cents worth. I haven't been a member long, but this is a fascinating group. Merry Christmas to all! Jeff in Lone Star, Texas ------- Re: Atlas 10F lathe headstock spindle bearings Posted by: wa5cabx~xxcs.com wa5cab Date: Tue Dec 22, 2015 8:51 pm ((PST)) As these three messages are all related and I hadn't gotten around to commenting on the earliest, I've lumped them together. Reduces the time to write and to read. First, although I've seen a couple of posts over the past couple of years that could be interpreted as though the writer thought the dates were put onto the bearings on the assembly line at Atlas, that this couldn't be the case is amply demonstrated by the fact that 2/3 of the cases where we have both bearing dates reported give two different dates between one week and nearly one year apart. So the bearings must have been dated elsewhere (either at Atlas or at Timken). And serve to at least set the earliest date that the lathe could have been assembled. This also demonstrates that Atlas did not practice strict FIFO stock procedures. Second, as to whether the dates were put on by Atlas or by Timken, despite the fact that one set of dated bearings has been reported in a non-Atlas machine, I still lean toward the dates having been put on by Atlas for the following reasons: The bearings used in the 6" lathes, the mills and the shapers have never been reported to have dates. I have never heard or read of anyone reporting hand engraved dates on any Timken bearings except for those found in Atlas 10"/12/index.html" headstocks. Coincidentally, I have probably looked at more Timken bearings than anyone else here. Around 45 or so years ago, I bought some 500 mostly Timken tapered roller bearings from a local independent auto parts store that declined to be bought out by a competing chain and suffered an arson attack. They were all old slow or non-moving stock and I bought them because a high percentage happened to fit Land Rovers, which I had a small side-line business in during the years when you could not buy a Land Rover in the US. Point being that some probably dated back to the 50's if not 40's. And I looked at all of them and none had dates. Benchmaster could also have bought surplus bearings from Atlas, who as we know had large contracts during the War. Probably some got canceled short in late 1944 when a lot of as it turned out short sighted people were sure that the War was going to be over by Christmas. A lot of contracts cranked back up again in January. And were again suddenly canceled in August following Japan's sudden surrender after the second nuke. So we no longer needed to continue building up for the invasion of the home islands. However, this is just my opinion. It could also be that Atlas paid Timken extra to do the inspection. As for the "3" engraved on two bearings, that could be a QA Stamp. But if it was, that must not have been standard practice either at or for Atlas as none of the other bearings in the database mention such. No one commented on one of the bearings from the recently reported 10F not having matching dates. That has to be a screw-up on someone's part. Robert Downs - Houston wa5cab dot com (Web Store) MVPA 9480 ------- Re: Atlas 10F lathe headstock spindle bearings Posted by: wa5cabx~xxcs.com wa5cab Date: Tue Dec 22, 2015 9:17 pm ((PST)) One minor point -- we don't want to re-write history. Although we don't know how high (numerically low) the Class definitions went in the 30's and 40's, we do know that they didn't go as high (numerically low) as they do today. Class 000 dates from later than 1994 as I have the ANSI-ABMA Standards document from 1994 and 000 isn't in it. In the 1980's when my Department was designing and building small extremely long running time (for the day) FM tape data recorders, we used a lot of precision ball bearings. I'm 99% sure that ABEC Class 9 wasn't listed and don't think that Class 7 was. But the points are that (a) we don't know what Class Atlas was trying to use. And (b) Class 3 was certainly higher on the precision hog in the early days that it is now. Robert Downs - Houston ------- Re: Atlas 10F lathe headstock spindle bearings Posted by: "Dave Clements" davidcclementsx~xxgmail.com dustydave_1999 Date: Tue Dec 22, 2015 9:34 pm ((PST)) In my 44 year career as a heavy equipment mechanic I have encountered lots of large timken bearings in the box with dates and other numbers engraved. Especially when the engineering specs exceeded catalog specs or they were very large. Dusty ------- Re: Atlas 10F lathe headstock spindle bearings Posted by: "Gregg Eshelman" g_alan_ex~xxYAHOO.COM g_alan_e Date: Tue Dec 22, 2015 9:43 pm ((PST)) One thing I do know is that Atlas, Montgomery Ward and Craftsman products that were USA made used better bearings than a lot of stuff does now, or has in the past 40 years. I have an old Montgomery Ward double shaft motor on my bench with grindstones and cast iron guards. It takes a couple of minutes to coast to a stop and it's nearly silent while running. I've seen some ancient Craftsman pedestal grinders spin for 5+ minutes after they're turned off. My other grinder is Asian made, from the very late 70's or early 80's. I had to replace the centrifugal switch a couple of years ago. It's always run down in a few seconds and has always been quite noisy while running. I suppose I could spruce it up by replacing the bearings with something better. -------- Re: Atlas 10F lathe headstock spindle bearings Posted by: wa5cabx~xxcs.com wa5cab Date: Tue Dec 22, 2015 10:31 pm ((PST)) That might help. But if the armature isn't well balanced, it will still vibrate. Robert & Susan Downs - Houston ------- Re: Atlas 10F lathe headstock spindle bearings Posted by: crvtfanx~xxcomcast.net accelo Date: Wed Dec 23, 2015 8:13 am ((PST)) I believe Jeff in Lone Star, Texas has gotten this correct: "Timken would begin with the same forging, and then date them and ID the grade upon completion. Just my two cents worth." This is the same story I received from a bearing representative. Back in the day precision bearings were all made on the same equipment as the standard class bearings. They were identified by inspection, to be better than the rest, and marked and sold as such. Today, I believe they have separate finishing lines and equipment. I also agree that the large, i.e. more expensive, bearings are much more likely to have the date and other information engraved on them. On the smaller bearings this information might be on the bearing box only. I will see if I can confirm this. Rick in WA State -------- ------------------------------------------------------------------ This is just one of some 80 files about machining and metalworking and useful workshop subjects that can be read at: http://www.janellestudio.com/metal/index.html ------------------------------------------------------------------