This is just one of some 80 files about machining and metalworking and useful workshop subjects that can be read at: http://www.janellestudio.com/metal/index.html ------------------------------------------------------------------ This file provides user information and tips about various collets, as well as collet systems, that can be used on many different machine brands. What are the differences and advantages of the many kinds of collet systems? Lots of good answers and opinions here. There are also conversations about making your own collets and collet holders. Elsewhere on this site in the file "Cutters, Bits, and Arbors" there is occasional mention of collets, so that file is worth checking out, but most collet information on this site now will be found here. In January 2011 this file was renamed from "Atlas Collets" to its present "Collets For Lathe or Mill" and at the same time nearly all collet conversations including some of the Taig or Sherline specific ones were consolidated here. One recurring question is whether a collet should be used to hold an endmill. (Yes? No? Read on.) Yes there is still information here about Atlas brand collets, and other collets that can be used on, or adapted for, Atlas machines. But this file now has a great deal more information that will be helpful for folks using collet systems on any brand of machine. If you got to this file directly from my HOME PAGE, return there by using your browser's back button. BUT if you came to this file as the result of a web search engine, see many additional files on my home page Machining and Metalworking at Home http://www.janellestudio.com/metal/index.html SAFETY WARNING BEWARE: DO NOT ASSUME that any subject matter or procedure or process is safe or correct or appropriate just because it was mentioned in a news/user group or was included in these files or on this site or on any other web site or was published in a magazine or book or video. Working with metals and machinery and chemicals and electrical equipment is inherently dangerous. Wear safety devices and clothing as appropriate. Remove watches, rings, and jewellery -- and secure or remove loose clothing -- before operating any machine. Read, understand and follow the latest operating procedures and safety instructions provided by the manufacturer of your machine or tool or product. 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(c) Copyright 2003 - 2016 Machining and Metalworking at Home The form of the collected work in this text file (including editing, additions, and notes) is copyrighted and this file is not to be reproduced by any means, including electronic, without written permission except for strictly personal use. ============================================================================ From: Art Herrick Date: Tue Jul 4, 2000 11:02pm Subject: Re: Collet System for 6" Atlas/ Clausing Hi ! Group Found a collet set up for my 6" ATLAS/CLAUSING lathe, Model 3950 (circa. 1974/1980s). Price is a bargain! Check out BEST WOOD TOOLS: http://www.store.yahoo.com/bestwoodtools/colsysfor2mo.html If your lathe spindle nose has a 1"-8 or 1"-10 thread with #2 MT, and the spindle bore is (mine is .525) I.D., your in business. Total cost $150.97, for draw bar, spindle thread guard, 7 collets (1/8" to 1/2" x 1/16" increments) and a machined aluminum collet storage stand. The owner of BEST WOOD TOOLS is Victor Arrighi: varrigh1x~xxt... E-Mail Victor (say I sent you) and give him the total length of your spindle and its Bore I.D., thread size on spindle nose, the dia. of hole in Gear Guard Cover and how far it is from the outboard end of the spindle to the Gear Guard Cover face, and the distance from the spindle nose to the flanged face that your 3 jaw chuck seats on. Also give him lathe manufacturer (i.e. 6" ATLAS/Craftsman, or other), Model No., and the serial number of your lathe. The aluminum collet storage stand (7 1/4"x1"x1 1/4" high) is nicely machined and is really a necessity (no collets banging around in a box or draw and nicking up the MT surface). It brings the collet cost down around, say $10 or $11 (or less) which is a bargain, when you buy the set. The one draw back is that because the draw bar is solid you can not pass long pieces of rod stock back through the spindle ... that is the price we pay for our small lathes. We do not have to worry about scrap from a production run, so I suppose it does not make any difference. I like the idea of easily chucking small pieces, and not having to work up close to a 3 or 4 jaw chuck. Example: 1/2" dia. stock seats itself 2 1/8" into the collet. Had a retired tool maker friend check my Collet System out ... well made and a bargain! Disclaimer: "I have no monitory interest in BEST WOOD TOOLS". Just thought this was something that a lot of people have been looking for. Art Herrick Westmoreland NH -------- From: "Jack Gartner" Date: Thu Jul 6, 2000 12:34 pm Subject: Re: WW collets, etc. > ... There is a bit of confusion regarding Sherline collets. They > make a 5/16" collet adapter and an 8 mm collet adapter. The best > approach to the use of collets in the Sherline lathe is to purchase > their 8-mm WW collet adapter and draw bar.... I'm kind of new to this and therefore not that familiar with the terminology. Was reading old notes to learn about collets and came across your note. Maybe you can help. I'm confused about the meaning of the "WW". After reading your reply and the Sherline documentation for their collet set (http://www.sherline.com/1160inst.htm) I get the impression that WW collets come in both metric and english versions; and that the metric version is 8mm and the english version is 5/16. Is this correct? What exactly does the "WW" signify, (vs. a 5C collet for example)? The angle of the taper, the length? What does the 5/16 (or 8mm) signify (The outer diameter of the collet?) Do WW collets come in other sizes besides 5/16 and 8mm? ------- From: Ron Ginger Date: Thu Jul 6, 2000 2:20 pm Subject: Re: [sherline] Re: WW collets, etc. Jack Gartner wrote: > I'm kind of new to this and not that familiar with the terminology. There are two parameters of interest in collets, one is the type or style of collet, the other is the size of material its made to hold. There may be a million types of collets- manufacturers used to make their own style to force you to buy from them. In more recent years some standardization has arrived, but there are still a lot of them. WW and 8mm refer to type of collets, as does 5C, 4C, 3AT, R8 etc etc. There is NO detectable logic to the names of collets- they are just plain old marketing terminology. For Sherline machines WW and 8mm are suitable types. The next value of interest is the hole, or the size of materail the collet will hold. These are available in both inch and metric values, so you can buy a ww colet to hold 1mm stock, or an 8mm collet to hold a .062 rod. It is also true that collets labeled WW or 8mm may not always be interchangeable. Some manufacturers would call their collets WW, but make just enough change in drawbar thread or OD or angle to make them incompatable. Note also that collets must fit the work very closely. You cannot expect good holding or accuracy if you try to use a 1/16" collet (.062) to hold a wire that is .050 for example. If you get into collets you wind up with LOTS of them ron ------- From: David Eiman Date: Fri Jul 7, 2000 12:24 pm Subject: Re: [sherline] WW collets The WW stands for Webster-Whitcomb. Ambrose Webster and John E. Whitcomb were two Americans. The designed and made lathes in the second half of the 19th century. They came up with the standard dimensions that are used today. The Europeans pretty much copied the American design here. The history is written in The Watchmakers Lathe by Goodrich. I have an extra copy available (new). I stock the metric collets in tenth of a millimeter increments made by Starrett at $11 each. I stock sizes from 5 to 80. I have been selling these for over 13 years and the inventory is a nightmare at times. I am also a Sherline dealer, but their offering of metric collets is only in half millimeter increments. For clock work these gaps are too great. A full set of collets makes a lathe more useful. I got into this when I was trying to complete my own working set of collets. I just use the required size and don't worry about brand names in my working set (although somewhere I have boxes to collect sets by maker for various lathes I don't use). David David Eiman * Around The Clock Fresno, CA * NAWCC 0072811 Collect-buy-sell-trade antique & modern watchmakers lathes ------- From: WRSmith2x~xxa... Date: Fri Jul 7, 2000 1:48 pm Subject: Re: [sherline] WW collets WW stands for Webster Whitcomb. This is the "pattern" of watchmaker's lathe that became the most popular of all such lathes. When purchasing a watchmaker's lathe, it is always wise to buy a WW pattern lathe because more attachments are available for it on the used market than any other pattern. The WW pattern lathe was made by Derbyshire, Levin, Boley and a number of other makers. TTYL W. R. (Bill) Smith 8049 Camberley Drive Powell, TN 37849-4218 Phone: 865-947-9671 ------- Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2000 16:45:35 EDT From: Bambootomx~xxaol.com Subject: Re: Collets for Atlas 10" lathe Back to the collet question. The ones advertised by Best Wood Tools require a draw bar to close them, and it appears that stock wont be able to be passed through the headstock. What I use is a MT 2 and MT 3 collet chuck assembly that uses ER series collets. Their runout is phenominally small, and the ability to collapse 40 thou in each collet makes them extremely economical while preserving a high degree of precision. I would think that the ones that Best Wood sells are designed to turn small wood items, such as pens, and might not be accurate enough for metal turning over the long haul. Look for the ETM brand collet chucks and collets in the J & L catalog, and also the MSC catalog. ------- Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2000 15:42:23 -0600 From: "Maxwell Sandford" Subject: Re: Collets for Atlas 6" lathe First, we are talking about the 6" not the 10" Atlas. (101.21400, for my 6" Craftsman.) Yes, the drawbar is 3/8-16 UNC--a length of plain Truevalue or Home Depot threaded rod. There is a brass bushing to seat the drawbar in the outboard end of the spindle hole and an aluminum turned handle to tighten the drawbar against the bushing. The collets are steel, well made and of course they simply pull into the MT-2 spindle. I found I have to tap out the collet to release it from the taper. You can simply back off the drawbar a turn and give the knob a rap with a shot-filled hammer, a plastic hammer, or a wood block. You could quite easily buy the collets alone (I got the set, but you can buy only one size, for example if you need only to hold a mill cutter), and make up the drawbar, bushing, and knob. The collet set is a nice addition to the 6", in my opinion, but it is true that you cannot use it and pass long lengths of small diameter stock through the headstock. However, it sure beats working close to the jaws of a chuck for close work on small diameters. ------- Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2001 11:05:05 -0600 (CST) From: Tom Benedict Subject: Re: Digest Number 267 First off, my apologies for hitting this so late. My home machine has been down for the last few weeks while my wife and I re-arrange our house so my son will have a bedroom by the time he's born. So I haven't read mail for WEEKS. (I'm in withdrawal.) But it has meant for some good time out in the shop. ;) On Mon, 22 Jan 2001, Andrew Werby wrote: > [Thanks for your help, Robin and Tom. I thought of this, but how does > one hold onto these collets while machining them? Robin, you're right- > I'm about at the limit of what I can do without accurate centering. > From Tom's comment, I I think he found it easier to retain the finder > with a set-screw than by slitting it, with which I'd agree, but I'd > appreciate any hints for setting this up.] I used an arbor rather than a collet. I just made up a set of five identical arbors last night, so I can tell you how I did that. When I bought my Taig I bought ten blank arbors. I have two left. Last night I grabbed five, and did the following to all of them: I carefully cleaned the spindle and the back of the arbor, and threaded it on, making sure it seated squarely and solidly (no swarf or junk behind it to throw it off-center). Center-drilled and drilled to one fractional size under 3/8". In retrospect, it probably would've been better to drill through with a smaller drill because my 3/8" drill doesn't have the best tip on it. The cutting edges are sharp, but it doesn't center-cut well. Chucked up a 3/8" reamer in the tailstock, and with the lathe running as slowly as possible, reamed it out to 3/8". (I highly recommend getting a set of reamers if you don't have them. I don't use them every day, but when you need one they're hard to d owithout.) At this point your procedure may vary. SOMEHOW you want to put a threaded hole in the side of the arbor. You can do this with v-blocks and a drill press, or you can do it with a vise and a vertical mill, or you can use the rotary stage on the mill, or... It's up to you. I *do* recommend that you do it as accurately as possible, whatever option you choose. With the five I did last night, I haven't drilled the set-screws yet. The reason I'm making five is that I want to permanently mount all of my end mills in their own arbors. That'll let me mount them so they're all as close to identical height as possible. That way I can swap from an edgefinder to a mill (without set-screws), set the surface height, and change from end mill to end mill (without set-screws), and not have to re-indicate the surface. I'm going to finish them tonight using the rotary stage on the CNC mill. I'm planning on machining a nice grippy surface on the threaded end of the arbor, drill and tap the set-screw hole, and then engrave the size of the mill on them. Not strictly necessary, but why not? Tom ------- Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2001 21:47:25 -0800 From: "Kory Hamzeh" Subject: RE: Endmill in collet? > Can I hold an endmill in a collet? I've heard it done that way, but I've never tried it. Here are plans for an easy to build end mill holder: http://home.rmci.net/deanw/shop.html. Kory ------- Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2001 05:50:01 -0000 From: "tauseef" Subject: Re: Endmill in collet? Hey Eric: Yeah you can use a collet to hold your endmill as long as it's 1/4" and you have the drawbolt for it. You don't need the "endmill holder" like the 3/8" one sherline sells. I use a 1/8" and 3/16" collet often. Endmill holders and collets are fine but don't use a chuck for holding them. Also try to keep the endmill as short as possibe to keep it rigid (can cut the endmill in half with a dremel cutoff wheel if its double sided and material allows--keep the endmill cool). later tauseef ------- Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2001 10:10:43 -0800 From: "Kory Hamzeh" Subject: RE: Re: Endmill in collet? A collet WILL work. As a matter of fact, holding an end mill in a collet will give you more accurate results because end mill holders have a much larger run-out than collets (almost none). However, if you make aggressive cuts with the end mill in a collet holder, you can cause the collet to spin and possibly crack it. Like I said in the original reply, I've never used a collet to hold an end mill, but I've heard others have and some have spun the collet and cracked it. The set screw in the end mill holder holds the end mill in place. Kory ------- Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 04:27:50 -0000 From: "tauseef" Subject: Re: Endmill in collet? Hi kory and dean thanks for the info and thank you Dean for the address again..I really like your pages! Interesting stuff! I also made a cutoff tool holder but really like yours also. Kory, I would think one must be really machining aggressivly as you mentioned to crack the sherline collet! I would think the endmill would crack first. Spining it, maybe, but they are held in very tightly with little pressure from the drawbolt. Personally, I use them most of the time and like them more than the 3/8" holder. They are much smaller, go into the spindle and the only thing sticking out is the short endmill. The only thing that can be a problem is get them out but a samll tap on the drawbolt is usually only needed. Each has its purpose but if ever need give a collet a try you might like them. later tauseef ------- Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 02:19:01 -0000 From: tgilmourx~xxiname.com Subject: Re: Endmill in collet? Eric: If you want to make endmill holders [for Sherline], Taig Tools sells blank arbors that look like the endmill holders that Sherline sell. They have the same threading as the Sherline spindle, but you have to cut a little off the threaded end using the lathe so they screw onto the spindle far enough. You can screw these onto your spindle and then drill and ream for whatever size needed. They're made of leaded steel so they cut very easily. Taig's URL is taigtools.com and the part is #1130 under 'accessories'. Best of all, they only cost $1.75. I bought a half dozen. Tom ------- Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 09:21:36 -0800 From: "Nicholas Carter and Felice Luftschein" Subject: RE: Re: Endmill in collet? The 1130 is tapped on the end for a #8(?) screw and has a supplied washer. makes it that much easier to make slitting saw arbors, etc. I tend to use the 1132 as I am cheap, and it's not that hard to tap the end. They do machine beautifully. I used them successfully on the Sherline mill, but as others have noted you have to remove a section on the end because of the difference between the Taig and Sherline spindles. If you look on my "picture" page http://www.casco.net/~felice/picture.html there should be many pictures (scattered throughout) of different accessories made with the blank arbor. I even made a boring head from one. See our web pages http://www.casco.net/~felice ------- Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 09:26:01 -0000 From: ssmithx~xxserena.com Subject: Re: Small Collets for Sherline Lathe In sherline: > I'm trying to thread (0-80) the end of some .061 stainless steel > shafting using a Sherline 1/16" collet in the headstock, and a die > holder in the tailstock. The shafting keeps turning it the collet > when trying to thread. Does anyone have another source for small > collets that will fix the Sherline lathe. I looking for collets that > are 1/16" and smaller. Bob I have made a 1/16 collet adapter for my 1/8 mill collet. Mill collets have more holding power. I used 1/8 steel rod, drilled the 1/16 hole using my lathe, used a .010 slitting saw to make the 120 degree cuts part way down the rod. You could also make a .061 holder out of larger rod using set screws to hold the rod in the .061 hole of the larger rod and holding the larger rod in the lathe with a collet or chuck. You could also make one out a TAIG blank arbor (#1130 or #1132) which also fits the Sherline spendle, drilling a .061 hole and adding set screws. ------- Date: Sat, 03 Mar 2001 05:27:28 -0000 From: fyunchx~xxaol.com Subject: Re: MT2 Collets #2MT collets do have a through hole---3/8" thread. You can make up a hollow drawbar to pass 3/16" stock. The higher knockout force comes because the long shallow taper is intended to grip. It's not practical for production, but works when just a few parts are needed. W.C. Gates ------- Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2001 23:02:05 -0500 From: Stan Stocker Subject: Re: Re: Questions for the gurus Jim: You can always chuck a pin vise in a four jaw or perhaps even a three jaw. Some of the Starrett pin vises have smooth areas you can grip on, as do some of the old Generals. You may even be able to use the knurled ones with sufficient accuracy, or make a holder for your pin vise collets from a blank arbor. I haven't done this, as I just thought of it, but it seems like a do-able task. At least we know you have the ability to cut fine threads as needed! You could make a collet from a blank collet, or do a slit insert to go into one of the standard size collets. Poking a 1/16 hole down the center of a bit of 1/8 brass rod and slitting it lengthwise is easy enough, and would be my first approach assuming you have the standard collet set already. Using a larger bit of rod and turning it down to 1/8, leaving a shoulder to keep the insert from slipping back into the collet would be even nicer. If you only need to do a few pieces and can dedicate a chuck to the work for the duration you could make a small collet with a piece of stock held in the three jaw. Drill, ream, slit with a jewelers saw, and clamp with a small hose clamp. If you mark the collet to allow matching it back to the orientation in which it was made you may get adequate repeatability. A good quality drill chuck on the headstock adapter to hold a chuck may also give you the accuracy you need. You might be able to ream a 1/16 opening in the soft jaws with them closed all the way down. If you need a thou TIR, there are lots of methods. A tenth can be tough. If you have to do lots of small work, and can justify $350 or so, get a spare headstock with a WW spindle and a set of WW collets. Individual WW collets are also available should you want to reduce the cost of getting into WW collets. A spare complete Taig setup for WW would be even nicer! Stan ------- Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2001 11:08:56 -0500 From: Larry Richter Subject: Re: Making Collets - sawing ajkdfwx~xxaol.com wrote: >For the most part I use my Taig to turn small parts for my scale boats. I make extensive use of the collet set that came with the lathe, however there have been times I needed a particular size which wasn't included. I have blank collets and the Taig slitting saw ... the drilling and reaming seem straightforward but I'm truly puzzled as to how to hold the collet while machining the slits. Call it lack of imagination but I've been over it a dozen times in my head but the answer eludes me ... If the saw is turning perpendicular to the bed, how can the collet be secured and slit? Also, at what speed should the saw be turning to make these slits? Any help is truly appreciated ... Thanks. AJ < This may not be help, it may be only gossip. But. Most power cutting operations have a hand equivalent. Power machining is the recent addition, actually. It rules because it is Soo MUUCH BETTTER, but the hand operations, if you pick up the skills, are surprisingly simple and versatile, and many beautiful and astounding things have been made by sawing, filing, and chiseling. The last post on making collets mentioned the jeweler's saw, which is one of these old tools. It probably needs to be better described. It is like a coping saw, in general, and is a lot like a cabinet makers fret saw. It is a C-Clamp shaped frame, usually with one adjustable joint in the frame, vertically adjustable, and a pair of clamps at the tips to hold the ends of a tiny blade that is made of very highly refined steel (or ought to be, there are useless cheap blades by the million). The blades come in a wide range of sizes and of almost invisible tooth counts. Once you master the mysterious skill required, to wit, you never put any pressure on the blade but simply move it up and down and let the sharpness do the job, you can cut almost anything to almost any shape. You can cut your collet slit with one of these while thinking of lunch, or something else good, and not have to worry about the set up. But it isn't modern. Saw brand that is best for the money is generic German. If you find stock on the shelf that says "West Germany" you are really in. Get best quality Swiss blades if you want to be sure of consistency, or the various laser brand blades from Rio Grande Jewelers supply in New Mexico. Rio Grande won't deal with everyone like they used to, though. Other stuff can be good, but I got tired of having every package of blades be a test case, and settled on Swiss (skys, lotus, others) and laser gold. Rio has Swiss files that are like a dream, also. ------- Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2001 13:30:43 -0500 From: "Rich D." Subject: Re: Making Collets AJ, this is one of those problems that "makes a machinist". Think of indexing. Think of holding. 3 slots, easy. Lock a hex head screw into the drawbar end of the collet. The head is the indexer. Hold the collet in the vise in a split sleeve or block such that the parallel sides of the screw head also contact the vise. Orientation of all of this depends on your machine, tooling, etc. Center the slitting saw on the collet and cut a slot on the top. Rotate (index) the collet to the next pair of flats and cut again. The collet has to be held well back on the shank to stay clear of the saw blade as well as not collapse the collet as it's cut. No climb milling allowed. Good luck. Rich D. ------- Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2001 19:43:54 +0100 From: Tony Jeffree Subject: Re: Making Collets Rich - The Taig collets don't use a drawbar & are split from both ends (4 cuts each end), so the holding/indexing techniques may need to be a little different. Nice approach for cutting other types of collet though. Regards, Tony ------- Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2001 00:35:07 EST From: ajkdfwx~xxaol.com Subject: Re: Collets There certainly has been a lot of useful information on collets and the potential use for them in the past 8 hours. I'm still very much in the dark as to how to utilize the slitting saw to machine custom size collets however. Does anyone have a method for holding the little devils while you slit them? I realize I could take the long way round and chuck one in a vise and then use a jewelers saw, but then, what good is the slitting saw? As far as the spindle size not allowing 3/8" endmills, I chickened out on drilling and reaming mine the extra 1/32 to facilitate this. I went ahead and machined a blank arbor with a setscrew instead and use this when I need to use endmills with 3/8" shanks. AJ ------- Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2001 10:47:41 -0000 From: J.C.Beechx~xxshu.ac.uk Subject: Re: Collets Not quite as straight forward as the rest, but, Machine a block to take the collet. Now slit the block along its centre and skim both faces (for clearance of the slitting blade). Take your reamed collet and fit a brass rod the bore of the new collet and clamp in the block. Now slit the collet at one end, when this is complete turn the block round, replace the brass insert and slit from the other end. (forgot to say rotate the collet in the block by 90 deg for the two slits. There is a nice and easy way to accuratly slit the collet and the block is available for use later on. Joules ------- Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 03:50:12 -0000 From: cmsteamx~xxatlnet.com Subject: Sherline mill collet drawbolt tip: Hi Gang, I do engraving frequently and the need to use available 1/8" dia x 5" long cutters poses a problem holding them with a collet because the drawbolt is solid. Solution is to drill the bolt number 11 drill (just over 3/16" dia). Fills the bill nicely. This is useful for holding long drill bits also. Rich D. ------- Date: Thu, 31 May 2001 07:49:06 -0500 (CDT) From: dswrx~xxwebtv.net Subject: Re: Re: Collets issue My suggestion is NOT to tap on the drawbar at all. Remove it first, then using a brass rod that is a little smaller in diameter than the diameter of the bore and longer than the length of the bore, propel the rod into the bore and it will dislodge the collet. Make sure to catch the collet holder as it is dislodged. Leo ------- Date: Sun, 27 May 2001 18:02:24 +0000 From: Jon Elson Subject: Re: collets for 10" jet wrote: >I'm a bit fuzzy on collet sizing, so this may be a pretty basic question. >If I were looking to buy a drawbar and collet set, what sizes should >I be looking at for a 10"? 3AT? 3C? Something else? If you know >of a web site that explains collet sizing, please drop me email. The 10 and 12" Atlas lathes have a #3 Morse taper on the headstock. So, you could use MT 3 collets directly in the spindle, with a drawbar collet closer. One problem is the Morse taper collets have a small internal thread, so long stock can't pass through the collet and hang out the back. The 3AT and C type collets are designed to use an external thread to close the collet, so a draw-tube can pull the collet in, allowing stock to pass through both. 5C collet chucks generally have the closer thread built into the chuck, and the chuck screws onto the spindle. The 5C collets go up to about 1", 3C and 3AT collets are much smaller, limiting workpiece diameter. One other possiblity is to modify #3 MT collets with an external thread, and bore out the center enough to clear a workpiece the same size as the collet. Then, you could make a draw-tube to fit. Jon ------- From: bweishapx~xxg... Date: Thu Aug 9, 2001 7:52 pm Subject: ww headstock, spindle, pulley and drawbar Was wondering if anyone had any idea if the above would fit my WW 8mm collets? I have a Boley Jewelers lathe with 8mm collets. If they would fit the above I would opt to buy the set which is a W1020 so I could use them on my Taig. I really like it but making small clock and watch parts it would be nice if it did and make it more versitle to me. Thanks. Bernie ------- From: "David Robertson" Date: Thu Aug 9, 2001 10:37 pm Subject: Re: [taigtools] ww headstock, spindle, pulley and drawbar Bernie. They are supposed to...Nick Carter can probably tell you for sure. If you haven't yet bought the lathe, this may be the way to go. I already had a Taig and wanted to use my WW collets, so I made a chuck to hold the collets from one of the Taig blank arbors. I just drilled a hole in it the size of the straight part of the collet and than cut a 20 degree taper on the entrance to the hole for the tapered part of the collet to fit into... (trial and error to get it the right depth.. since there is variability in WW collets. Then I ordered a draw bar from Pat Cavenaugh clockdokx~xxo... .. the correct length (it is adjustable however) and turned a bushing so that the back end of the drawbar would fit snugly and concentrically in the pulley end of the headstocks spindle. Voila... a WW chuck for the Taig for less than $20 and an hours work. Dave ------- From: "Carol & Jerry Jankura" Date: Thu Aug 9, 2001 11:11 pm Subject: RE: [taigtools] ww headstock, spindle, pulley and drawbar David: Is the drawbar that you ordered anything more than a Hex bolt with the proper thread to fit the WW chuck on one end? Is this someting that you could have turned with your Taig? Your message gives me some ideas of what to make for my Sherline lathe, and how to do it. It sure sounds like a good use for Taig's arbor, which just happens to fit the Sherline as well. Jerry Jankura Strongsville, Ohio -------- From: Tony Jeffree Date: Fri Aug 10, 2001 1:38 am Subject: Re: [taigtools] ww headstock, spindle, pulley and drawbar >Voila... a WW chuck for the Taig for less than $20 and an hours work. Dave - I worry about the accuracy of doing it this way - just after you've turned the taper, it will of course hold the collets exactly on centre, but after you've removed the adapter from the spindle nose & re-fitted it, what kind of runout do you get on the collets? I suspect it will be significant - or at least, very dependent on how well that particular blank arbor fitted the spindle nose. A question, that you may be able to answer...isn't there a difference between WW (US) and 8mm (European) collets? We had a conversation about this on the list a while back - Sherline sell 2 different collet adapters for their rotary table, one for WW and one for 8mm. My best guess was that WW are essentially Imperial, and have a nominal shank diam of 5/16" (7.9375 mm) rather than a true 8mm, and that European 8mm collets use a metric pitch thread for the drawbar (where WW uses .275" X 40TPI). Is this correct? .275" is remarkably close to 7mm (6.985), and 40 TPI is 0.635mm pitch, so is the true 8mm collet threaded 7mm X 0.6mm pitch? Regards, Tony ------- From: "David Robertson" Date: Fri Aug 10, 2001 12:22 am Subject: Re: [taigtools] ww headstock, spindle, pulley and drawbar Jerry: The WW collets have external threads so the drawbar has to be a hollow tube with internal threads to fit the collet. The collet threads are approx .275" x 40tpi so not easy to do on Taig without proper size tube and proper tap. Drawbar costs $15. Woops.. picture got stripped... if interested you can see it at http://www.open.org/~clockdok/collet.html Dave Dave ------- From: "Nicholas Carter and Felice Luftschein" Date: Fri Aug 10, 2001 1:33 pm Subject: Re: [taigtools] ww headstock, spindle, pulley and drawbar There are several things you need to look out for: Not all WW collets are the same. Those with .313+ body diameter wouldn't fit, and some have longer bodies (Starret collets) need a spacer between the spindle and drawbar to take up the slack. The idea of making an adapter from the 1132 blank arbor is pretty good and if you take pains to clean the threads each time it should be pretty repeatable. See our web pages http://www.cartertools.com/nfhome.html ------- From: joel_mowersx~xxp... Date: Fri Aug 10, 2001 5:46 pm Subject: Re: ww headstock, spindle, pulley and drawbar Have been using the WW Taig headstock for several months now with no problem. As far as I know, WW and 8mm are the same thing. I have a motley collection of old collets that work fine. I also have several Sherline Imperial size collets that work fine. Also, you can get 8mm to 3/8" and 3/4" adapters from Sherline that will adapt Jacobs chucks etc. to the spindle. Ofcourse, the outer thread on the Taig WW headstock spindle is 3/4"-16 so you can use all of the Taig chucks, faceplates etc. I don't think you'll have any problems going WW. Joel ------- From: "David Robertson" Date: Fri Aug 10, 2001 6:28 pm Subject: Re: [taigtools] ww headstock, spindle, pulley and drawbar Tony... Good questions... I'll answer as best as I can. > I worry about the accuracy of doing it this way - just after you've turned the taper, it will of course hold the collets exactly on centre, but after you've removed the adapter from the spindle nose & re-fitted it, what kind of runout do you get on the collets? I suspect it will be significant - or at least, very dependent on how well that particular blank arbor fitted the spindle nose. < I haven't checked.. but also haven't used this setup but once since I have a couple of watchmakers lathes that I usually use when I am using WW collets. I will try removing and reinstalling a few times and see... I'll report results. I mainly did it so that I could use the WW collets in the Taig but have not had occaision to do so. > A question, that you may be able to answer...isn't there a difference between WW (US) and 8mm (European) collets? We had a conversation about this on the list a while back - Sherline sell 2 different collet adapters for their rotary table, one for WW and one for 8mm. My best guess was that WW are essentially Imperial, and have a nominal shank diam of 5/16" (7.9375 mm) rather than a true 8mm, and that European 8mm collets use a metric pitch thread for the drawbar (where WW uses .275" X 40TPI). Is this correct? .275" is remarkably close to 7mm (6.985), and 40 TPI is 0.635mm pitch, so is the true 8mm collet threaded 7mm X 0.6mm pitch? < I don't really know the answer to all of this. What I can tell you is that there are several diffferent colelts that are called "WW". Most are very similar and are the ones made by Levin, Peerless, Starrett, Webster Whitcomb and some others. I can't tell you that these are exactly alike... only that they are close enough to seat properly in my Levin watchmakers lathe. There is a Mosely which is longer and Mosely Conoidial which is same length (approx) as the long Mosely's but also have a gentle curve from the straight shank to the flared portion of the collet... rather than the sharp angle that is on all the others. These will work (i.e.seat) in my Levin but need a spacer about 1/16" thick between the knob on the drawbar and the back of the lathe spindle. I know that there are several similar but actually different thread pitches and thread diameters.. your explanation may be right and explain the differences. You've exhausted over 100% of my knowledge on the subject. I'll let you know how the runout test goes. Dave ------- From: "David Robertson" Date: Sat Aug 11, 2001 1:26 pm Subject: Re: [taigtools] ww headstock, spindle, pulley and drawbar Tony, you were right. the runout on the inside taper is .002 - .004" Runout is fairly consistent through several removals and reinstallations. Makes me think I didn't have the blank arbor and spindle threads squeaky clean when I was making it since error seems repeatable now. I will probably try making another and see if I can do better... Thanks for the question... I hope to end up with a better device in the long run. Dave ------- From: waldronx~xxw... Date: Fri Aug 17, 2001 12:44 pm Subject: WW collet runnout I have been comparing the total indicated runout on some of my WW collets, and wonder what is considered acceptable. The five collet set I bought from Sherline measures .0005" TID, with the 5/16 measuring higher. The 5/16 collet could be a measurement problem on my part, as the test pin only goes in about a quarter inch. However, I also have several Starrett WW collets, brand new,some of which measure as much as .0025 TID. I think that is a bit much. I used ground dowel pins to check, and the 1/8 inch dowel that gave .0025 with the Starrett gives .0005 with the Sherline collet. Any thoughts? Thanks, Brian ------- From: n2562001x~xxy... Date: Sat Aug 18, 2001 12:01 am Subject: Re: WW collet runnout Brian, I have both Sherline and Starrett collets as well as hardened collets. I have had little problem with any of them when properly used. A 0.0025" runout for any collet would not be exceptable to me. I will make the assumption that you are using the 8mm collet holder with the 8mm starrett collets. I will also make the assumption that your starrett collets are numbered collets and that the stock you are using to test the runout is round and proper diameter to fit the collet. If the assumptions are correct then I would contact the dealer or Factory for a solution. Jerry Kieffer ------- Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2001 21:53:47 GMT From: Subject: Best collet choice? I have the opportunity to buy a collet adaptor for my MT3 1 1/2-8 spindle machine. I can get one for either 3AT or 3C, same price. I know Atlas used the 3AT collet, but I hear they are tough to get, not made except as specials, and expensive. (Like about $60 per from Clausing, for what they still have.) Don't know much about the 3C other than it is the same as is used on South Bend of similar sizes. And I understand it is still made. Any opinions on which is better? How about relative availability of these? Relative price? The 5C chuck option is not on the table, it is a drawbar setup or nothing right now, cheap 5C notwithstanding. Thanks for any info Jerry ------- Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2001 18:49:22 EDT From: WBHINKLEx~xxaol.com Subject: Re: Best collet choice? i have bought some 3AT collets from Victor Machine, New York. i think they were around $20.00 for some and a few special ones for $38.00 each bill hinkle in Oklahoma ------- Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2001 16:32:30 -0700 From: Rick Kruger Subject: Re: Best collet choice? The Victor catalog I have shows 3ATs at a range of $17.50 to $23.90 and 3Cs a range of $20.90 to $26.50. 3AT and 3Cs look very similar, with the 3ATs looking to be shorter. Does anyone know what these are designed for/most used for? I assume the 3Cs are meant for lathe spindles since they are a smaller version of 5C and that's were I've seen 5Cs before. Don't know a thing about the AT type. One thing to keep in mind is that both of the 3AT and 3C will take more collets to cover any given range of sizes than the ER style. That translates into more cost, so you may want to consider the ER type even thought there may be a higher initial cost of a collet holder/chuck. What do you mean about the 5C not being a consideration due to the drawbar required? Both the 3AT and 3Cs also require a drawbar. What is the difference that makes the 5C out of the question? That would be one advantage to the ER type, no drawbar. Rick K. Portland, OR ------- Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2001 21:42:53 -0500 From: "jerdal" Subject: Re: Best collet choice? > What do you mean about the 5C not being a consideration due to the > drawbar required? 5c won't fit the spindle, requires a chuck, which sticks out 3 or 4 inches, and cost 3 times what the drawbar setup for the others will cost me. ------- Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2001 03:33:42 -0000 From: "Horace Steven" Subject: Re: Best collet choice? Many years ago I bought used 3AT collets from Sobels in NEw Jersey fairly cheap, some were new. He had abig wood crate with MANY of them at that time (1992?). I made a holder from the shank of a MT3 drill and a homemade drawbar, worked well. Steve ------- Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2001 23:35:31 EDT From: anthrhodesx~xxaol.com Subject: Re: Best collet choice? In a message dated Fri, 24 Aug 2001 16:32:30 -0700, Rick Kruger writes: << The Victor catalog I have shows 3ATs at a range of $17.50 to $23.90 and 3Cs a range of $20.90 to $26.50. 3AT and 3Cs look very similar, with the 3ATs looking to be shorter. Does anyone know what these are designed for/most used for? I assume the 3Cs are meant for lathe spindles since they are a smaller version of 5C and that's where I've seen 5Cs before. Don't know a thing about the AT type.>> *** I posted the following to the Logan list where I also saw Jerry's question. Hope this is helpful. Anthony Berkeley, Calif. *** << 3AT is an Atlas standard, used on their 12" and 10" lathes, possibly the 9" also, and evidently by some others such as Logan(?). I just checked the Atlas price list, they still offer *almost* all the collets at prices from $56.44 to $84.18 per collet. They may also be available elsewhere at a lower price. 3C is a Hardinge standard and, while not as readily available as 5C, was still available fairly recently. If nowhere else I'm certain you can get them from Hardinge, at what price I have no idea. (Hardinge can probably also supply 3ATs.) South Bend used a 3SB which, as far as I can tell, was identical to 3C. For myself, I would lean towards 3C over 3AT unless I was trying to equip a machine with "Original Equipment" or already had some 3AT collet gear. >> ------- Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2001 20:59:59 -0700 From: "Larry Bailey" Subject: Re: Re: Best collet choice? I am following this thread with some interest as I need to equip my 12" with a collet setup that would also be useful on my R8 spindle mill. I have been thinking about the ER system as chucks are readily available for both machines. I also like the TG100 system except that I haven't been able to find a chuck with a MT3 shank. I wonder if the members of the Group think that the 3" projection inherent in the ER collet chuck is a big problem as far as rigidity in the lathe. Obviously sticking a collet in the spindle would be best, but that would require a different lathe for a spindle bore of any size. Thanks, Larry ------- Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2001 00:18:20 EDT From: WBHINKLEx~xxaol.com Subject: Re: Best collet choice? also the 3At comes in hex and square collets. bill hinkle in Oklahoma ------- Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2001 04:07:03 -0400 From: "Matthew King" Subject: Re: Best collet choice? + lathe work question According to the Traver's catalog (with whom I've had EXCELLENT service, price, and speed in shipping, by the way) round 3AT AND 3C collets are both readily available in sizes from 1/16" through 1/2" in 1/64" steps. That makes 29 round collet choices. The 1/16-7/64 are 24.90 each, while the 1/8-1/2 are 19.50 each. They show the two side-by-side. The 3AT is a fair amount shorter and is listed as '.637" x 26 thread" while the 3C is listed as '.640" x 26 thread'. Travers doesn't list any hex or square collets for these sizes. J&L Industrial doesn't list the 3C nor the 3AT collets, only the 3J collet, a SIGNIFICANTLY larger item. MSC Industrial lists a handful of 3C collets for 26.59 each, while a smaller selection of 3AT collets are 29.79 each. They list sets for the following(better sit down): 7piece 3C 178.69, 3AT 207.00. 13 piece 3C 332.05, 3AT not available. 25 piece 3C 626.17, 3AT 723.63. Ouch - sets are expensive yet still a savings over individual prices. ------- Date: Sun, 02 Sep 2001 05:12:36 -0000 From: fyunchx~xxaol.com Subject: Re: question about collets for the 618 101.21400 Two more reasons for using collets: 1. Working on tiny parts is nicer without having to avoid spinning chuck jaws. 2. When working on thinwall tubes, collets grab more securely and don't distort the part like chuck jaws. Now--what collets to use and where to get them---- The 6" lathes have a #2 Morse Taper in the spindle. You can purchase #2 MT collets (can use up to 1/2" size) from MSC Direct, or occasionally on eBay. For occasional work, you can get just the 1/2" collet and make slotted adapter sleeves of brass, plastic or aluminum, as needed, to hold smaller diameter work. You will have to make up your own drawbar, bushing, and bushing nut. You will probably have to run with the change-gear cover open unless you enlarge the spindle hole in it. If you make a hollow drawbar, you can work on long rods up to 3/16" diameter. You also need to get or make up a spindle thread protector. Note--these #2MT collets are not quick-release type-you have to tap on the drawbar to release them. If collet and work are kept oiled, this is not usually a problem. I made up a set for me, and can send drawings of the drawbar, thread protector and bushing if you want to go this way. Alternatively, you can watch for a set of original Atlas 6AT collets with nosepiece, drawbar and bushing. They have come up once or twice a year on eBay, and typically sell for a small fortune. Headstock chucks also come up 3-4 times a year. Also--for working on rods 1/8" dia and under, a small precision pin vise held in the chuck works fine. Finally---for most jobs, an adapter sleeve held in a chuck will work as well as a collet, and can be made much easier than obtaining collets. W.C. Gates Santa Cruz, CA ------- Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2001 01:34:15 EDT From: anthrhodesx~xxaol.com Subject: Re: question about collets for the 618 101.21400 This question was asked about a week ago at a time when my work schedule had me exhausted. My appologies for not having responded more quickly. The native collet type for the Atlas-built 6" lathe is 6AT or M6-750, two names for the same design. By native I mean that this is the collet system designed by Atlas Press to be used with their 6" lathes. The 6AT/M6-750 Collet System uses an M6-751 Collet which has a main body diameter of .500" and is .750" maximum diameter at the forward end of the closing taper. Standard M6-751 collets have an internal clearance bore of 19/64" and were available in 5 sizes, 1/16" through 5/16" by sixteenths of an inch. For a 2MT spindle bore the 1/2" body diameter is the largest that can be provided while using a 17/32" hollow drawbar, the largest to go through the Atlas spindle. As has been mentioned by others, an alternative "native" option would be 2MT collets which can be had with up to 1/2" capacity. Two drawbacks to the 2MT collets are that they are not self releasing, meaning they have to be driven out, potentially damaging to the spindle's roller bearings, and that the drawbar is not hollow, limiting the length of stock that can be passed through the MT collet. There are a couple of other options for collets in a 6" Atlas-built lathe. A different adapter-type collet could be used in place of the M6-751 (by adapter-type I mean where a closing adapter has to be inserted into the 2MT spindle bore). One collet which could be adapted is 2C, similar to the 3C and 5C that many people are familiar with but with a main body diameter of 29/64" and a maximum diameter at the forward end of the closing taper of 5/8", both figures smaller than those on the M6-751, while the maximum capacity is 11/32", greater than that of the Atlas collets. I'm not suggesting that 2Cs will be easy or inexpensive to come by, merely that it is an alternative to the native Atlas type which will also not be easy or inexpensive to acquire. There may be other alternatives (10 MM.?) which would also be superior to the Atlas collets. The other option for collets for the Atlas-built 6" lathes is to make a new spindle carrying the collet type of your choice *directly* in the spindle bore, no adapter, no 2MT bore, rather a through bore of 17/32" becoming the closing taper at the nose of the spindle. Using this method and a collet designed specifically to suit these requirements, it should be possible to have a clear passage through the drawbar of at least 3/8", possibly as much as 7/16". Hope the above information and ideas are useful to those of you with Atlas-built 6" lathes (and others). Anthony Berkeley, Calif. ------- Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 03:08:40 -0000 From: "gjameson1" Subject: home made collet closer Hi, i have recently become interested in using collets to hold work on my 10" atlas. I know collet closers are available from time to time on ebay, but has anyone made their own? If so would you be willing to share the plans. I have not seen one close up, so i realy dont know the intricacies of how they work. Is it simply a draw bar that pulls a 5c collet into a receiver? Will 5c collets even work on the 3mt spindle without some sort of adapter. thought about buying a 5c Bison collet chuck but if it can be made...why not. thanks, Gene ------- Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 07:25:43 -0600 From: "jerdal" Subject: Re: home made collet closer I made one, but for 3C collets not 5C. Really pretty easy to get it done, No fancy plans needed. There is a collared part with OD to fit the spindle taper, ID to closely fit the collet, and the proper tapered area for the draw-in. There is a piece of pipe to go thru the bore with an ID thread to fit the collet, and a handwheel and bearing on the other end. A refinement is another part to go on the spindle threads to protect them and also act as a jackscrew to remove the collar when you are done. The 5C won't fit your spindle, which is why I made a 3C size. I wanted the accuracy of an in-spindle collet, not a glorified chuck with the long stick-out distance of the Bison. Reference a recent issue of HSM /MW which has plans for a 5C closer, but much more complicated than needed, IMHO. Jerry ------- Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 11:15:45 -0800 From: Frank Evan Perdicaro Subject: Quickie collet closer > Subject: home made collet closer > Hi, i have recently become interested in using collets to hold work > on my 10" atlas. I know collet closers are available from time to > time on ebay, but has anyone made their own? If so would you be Here is the simple version of what I did to close the 3MT collets I bought from Victor Go to Home Depot and buy a 24" section of 3/8" coarse threaded rod, and a package of 2 coupling nuts. Thread the rod into 1 collet. Insert collet/rod assembly into headstock. Thread on a coupling nuts. Run one nut down so it is inside the spindle by about 1/4"; this will locate the rod so it is nearly centered. No, it is not centered, but close. If the cosine error is enough to bother you, then you are a good enough machinist to have no reason to read this note. You might add some loctite. Use any round gizmo of about the right size, drill 7/16" hole in it and put it over the rod. Thread on the other coupling nut and tighten the collet. Cut off the remaining threaded rod with a hack saw. Total cost is about $5. Total time is about 5 minutes. ------- Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 22:22:58 -0600 From: "jerdal" Subject: Re: home made collet closer You must have decided to use those 3AT collets! The outside obviously fits your spindle taper, which you can arrange by indicating on the inside of the spindle while you aline your compound to suit. You won't need to go any further than ompound travels for a 3C, probably also for the 3AT. Leave a nearly full thread minor diameter sized collar on the front (big) end , and turn the taper so it will leave about 0.150 between the nose and collar for the nose protector to fit under to pull it. For the inside, bore that after turning the outside, bore and finish with it in the taper. Go to www.zagar.com where most current collet types are fully dimensioned. I did the 3C right from their dimensions, and the first one slid in like butter. About 0.001 clearance or so on bore. Front taper was also right on after setting compound with an angle block and indicator similarly to the inside taper. Subsequent Hardinge and Royals have fit like gloves also, so the dims given are good. When using the indicator, you may have some shake in the needle, but there should be NO trending one wy or the other. Oh, and "indicator" in this case refers to the variety with a lever on the end, not the pushrod type which is also often simply called an "indicator". Jerry ------- Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 22:26:49 -0600 From: "jerdal" Subject: Re: Quickie collet closer Since you have a lathe, I suggest taking the 10 minutes added time to turn a collared bushing to a close fit in the spindle tail with a clearance hole for the all-thread. It will lead to less bending of the all-thread, and will protect the spindle end. The collet should seat straight anyhow, since it is a full-contact type. Jerry ------- Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 07:30:38 -0600 From: "jerdal" Subject: Re: Question from my vast ignorance. > Is there a place where the definition of the different types > (eg, 3-C,5-C, etc) of collets are given? I have a large set of verya > small collets for jewelers lathe, and I see many types at a local > machinery surplus house. Any help will be gratefully recieved. > Bill 6-18 owner (x2) Bill Aycock --- Persimmon Hill > Woodville, Alabama, US 35776 (in the N.E. corner of the State) > W4BSG -- Grid EM64vr baycockx~xxHiWAAY.net w4bsgx~xxarrl.net A number of the most popular are dimensioned in detail on www.zagar.com . The Logan site gives insufficient info for any more than a cursory determination of type, sometimes not even that. Hardinge workholding also has dimensions for several types, again not complete. My Machinery's handbook has almost no such info. Jerry ------- Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 08:48:50 -0600 From: "Skip Evans" Subject: Re: Question from my vast ignorance. Try this. It has all kinds of references. http://shopswarf.orcon.net.nz/sindex.html ------- Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2001 22:55:39 -0000 From: "jlm_1951" Subject: Re: Modifying /Making Collets? I side stepped the slitting problem by drilling and tapping a 6-32 set screw from the side (I needed a holder for the small diameter Dremel tool bits). So, in a sense I made a tool holder instead of a collet, but it works fine for the specific size I drilled. Joel ------- Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2001 23:09:29 -0000 From: "wishbone_aaa" Subject: Re: Modifying /Making Collets? > If I have to make a 6mm Collet from a blank one, how does one > hold a blank Collet to put the slits in it? I force fit the collet on a wood shaft with a slight taper and hand cut the slots with a jewler's saw. Don ------- Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2001 18:35:10 -0700 From: "Steve" Subject: Re: Modifying /Making Collets? Hollow out two pieces of wood to fit the collet, clamp the wood & collet in a vise, and free hand cut with a jeweler's saw or a slitting saw on the Taig. I'm too lazy to hollow the wood out tho, so I just clamp a collet between two 1X2's in the vise and use the jeweler's saw. I started using the slitting saw, but it takes a really long time to set it up safely. Then I found I could hold the collet between my fingers and cut a slot with a jeweler's saw in about 30 seconds. Then I nicked my thumb & decided to clamp them between the wood instead! I have also cut the slots with a dremel cutting disk, but the dust is really messy and it isn't a whole lot faster. It is also very easy to make "Tween" size collet bushings for that odd drill bit or rod size from brass rod. I usually make them from 1/4" rod drilled to the desired size and then slit them right in the collet. See the example in my directory on the yahoo group: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/taigtools/files/Simons_Ta ig_Pics/ColletBushingEnd.jpg http://groups.yahoo.com/group/taigtools/files/Simons_Ta ig_Pics/ColletBushingSide.jpg These were both cut freehand with the jeweler's saw and show that the slots don't have to be straight to work (but they would look nicer!). Steve ------- Date: Tue, 01 Jan 2002 11:39:36 -0600 From: David Robertson Subject: Re: Modifying /Making Collets? 12/31/2001, you wrote: >It is also very easy to make "Tween" size collet bushings for that odd >drill bit or rod size from brass rod. I usually make them from 1/4" rod >drilled to the desired size and then slit them right in the collet. For these insert collets... couldn't you just make a single slot down the side rather than the way you have done them? Dave ------- Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2002 18:58:13 -0700 From: "Steve" Subject: Re: Modifying /Making Collets? Hi Dave, Probably could! I just put the same slotting arrangement as the collets and align the slots when using them so they are in effect an extension of the collet. I don't know the engineering reason for choosing two slots over one, or four slots over two, but since the collets have eight slots I figured I'd match my bushings to them. Brass is relatively flexible, and might not *need* the same number of slots, but it doesn't take much time to cut them. I probably spend more time finding the saw and tightening the blade than actually cutting the slots. The nice thing about the brass bushings is they are really simple and fast to make. Any odd size drill bit or round stock can quickly be "bushed" so it will fit in a standard collet without wasting a blank collet. Steve ------- Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2002 19:00:20 From: "Victor Bitleris" Subject: Re: Modifying /Making Collets? Just recently, I had to make a collet to fit a 3/32" rod. What I did was used a blank collet, available from Taig tools, center drilled the starter hole, drilled through with a 3/32 bit and then used a jewelers saw to cut the "slits". This was somewaht tedious as there is no real good way of holding the collet. I drilled some holes in a block of mild steel to assist in supporting the collet while I sawed. The hardest part was getting it started properly. If someone has a better way of slitting, please let us know. Regards, Vic Bitleris ------- Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2002 14:23:20 -0500 From: Larry Richter Subject: Re: Modifying /Making Collets? Well, I imagine a razor saw could be used in some way. X-acto, Zona, about a dozen brands around. Some very thin saws with small teeth available from the x-acto. Forget the handle. Less fragile than a jeweler's saw, though I don't see one cutting hardened anything well. They cut brass and anything softer forever. I have some decades old. If you mounted the unslit collet in the cross groove of a vise, and glued or screwed the saw blade flat and horizontal to a wood block of the right height, you could maybe hold vise with one hand and move block with the other. Probably get a fairly even cut and a rest from blade changing. ------- Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2002 21:13:54 -0500 From: "defex" Subject: Re: Modifying /Making Collets? you could put a dremel bit or some other thin saw in the jaws/collet on the lathe and somehow mount the piece on the cross slide. then you could just feed it in. The slot would not have a flat boottom but in that case i think it might make it work better...cutting oil!..clamp tight! ------- Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 19:52:41 EST From: JMartin957x~xxaol.com Subject: Re: One more Collet Note Not sure I saw anyone mention the WW collets which also can be used in the lathes. I have a 6" Atlas/Craftsman, which came with an adapter and a couple of dozen collets. The WW collets are the small ones that you usually see with watchmakers lathes - go up to .250 or slightly larger. Made my own drawbar for them. Get lots of use at Pinewood Derby time for truing wheels and polishing axles. Most of my other work is larger. While there are a number of collets designed to be used without drawbars, they are almost always of a double taper design and are closed down by pressure from a threaded cap or similar piece. You may find some Morse collets designed for neither drawbar nor cap, but these are for holding drills and especially center drills where the heavy end pressure keeps them from slipping. John Martin ------- Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2002 20:37:28 -0500 From: "Ebower" Subject: collets I have read the current discussion on collets. I will probably get some heated discussion from this but I have been machining for the past 25 years and have been making all kinds of tooling. I have made my own collets and tooling using different steels. I have used stress proof, drill rod, pre hardened, and even tierods from automobiles. Yes, I got the bar stock from my mechanic and did quite a bit of machining using it for boring bars, collets, bolts, etc. I have never hardened any of the steels except hardening of drill rod. I have machined my own special collets and am using stress proof and pre-hardened steel for them. I have never had any of my collets hardened. The biggest statement that can be made and should be kept in mind, all you need to do is show a little TLC (tender loving care), and your collets will stay true and give you years of continuous and precision holding. Commercial collets are hardened and ground due to being in a shop and used (or should I say abused) by a number of people. I worked for 25 years, as a Tool Designer, for a company that had an in house shop and did all their tool and die making for themselves. The shop had at least a couple a hundred men on three shifts that worked six days a week and sometimes overtime on Sunday. If there was only one thing that I learned from the machinist and die makers from there was to take care of everything I used and purchased. (These guys were from the pre-CNC era. They did not know what CNC was and made some beautiful dies, all on manual machinery). I started at this company in 1967, as an engineer (22 years old), and I was the only engineer that showed any interest in how something was machined. I learned a lot from them. Five of my closest machinsts are now passed away. I did get the chance to thank them for the education I got from them. All these guys were union members and I was a company man (no union). I also bought books, read and re-read them, and then tried it out. During my hobby years (I have been machining since 1973) I have had all manual machines. I still use manual machines. Yes, I do have a retrofit CNC mill/drill, which is used for the commercial work I have been doing since 1992. I still use a 50 year old South Bend (purchased in 1996) and a 25 year old Atlas 6" lathe (purchased new in 1977). I have a 12" Grizzly but it is used for commercial work. I have a mill/drill (purchased new in 1985 from MSC) and it gets more use than the CNC. So much for the soap box. Earl Bower bower machine ------- Date: Sat, 06 Apr 2002 19:09:58 -0000 From: "WThanel" Subject: 6AT collet closer for the Atlas 618 Just though I would write a quick note about collets for the Atlas 618. I have been looking for an original 6AT collet setup for some time now. I saw they were available for the 618 at some point but are no longer available from Clausing. I found the 6AT collets on Ebay and contacted Earl bower about making a collet closer attachment. I received my 6AT collet closer from Earl Bower. It is similar in quality and design to the Royal products collet closers I have seen in the past for other lathes without the high costs. It is of steel construction with a nicely sized chrome plated handle. It also features a ball bearing thrust bearing between the handle and spacer for ease of use. It comes with the handle thrust bearing, spacer and collet/spindle adapter. All in all I would say I am very happy with it. The 6AT collets are very hard to come by but luckily Earl has the original specs and can make the 6AT collets. This setup has an advantage over the #2 morse taper collets in that material can be ran though the collets and spindle. Bill T. ------- Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 17:18:41 -0800 From: Rick Kruger Subject: Re: Want to build a collet chuck At 04:34 PM 11/18/02 -0800, "Skip Evans" wrote: >I want to build a collet chuck for my Atlas 12x36 lathe. >I have never seen a collet chuck up close. >1. Do the collets stick out of the chuck and into the spindle hole? >2. What collet type should be used? >3. I currently have a set of R8 collets for my mill. They will not extend >into the spindle hole. Would these work if the chuck was built to fully >contain the collet. >4. Where can I get info on collet dimensions? HELP!!!! Skip Evans At 12:51 AM 11/19/02 +0000, "Derf" wrote: >I have a collet set that came from a Southbend, I think. It has a >drawbar, thread protector, and a little sleeve that has 3MT taper on >the outside and 3AT collet taper on the inside. Depending on what >you want, you may think of getting the 3MT collets from somewhere >like lathemaster.com. If you don't need a through hole, the 3MTs may >be for you. If you need a through hole, I think the 3AT style goes >up to 1/2" or so. Cheers, Derf Skip, 3C collets allow up to 1/2" thru spindle stock holding, as apparently the 3ATs do. To get up to 3/4" or so, I've gone to ER spring collets and in the process of making a chuck for a 1 1/2" x 8 tpi spindle (SB 9 & Atlas 10). It will use the front locking nut from the 3MT drawbar arbor/chuck that came with the ER set. That 3MT holder is used on my minimill for holding end mills, so the ER set does double duty. 5C collets in a spindle mount collet chuck would get you a short distance of larger diameter holding ability, but only as much as your spindle hole goes for thru spindle stock. There is a good 5C collet chuck design in one of the Village Press mags. (HSM or MW) that's been discussed on some other groups recently. (Metalworking One. The Best of Projects in Metal, page 54 Pat Loop. Make Your Own Collet Chuck). 5C collets are a whole lot easier and cheaper to obtain than 3Cs. Generally, with 3C or 5C, the collets only compress about 1/64th of an inch (0.016"), so you need a lot of them to cover the full range of sizes you might need. ER spring collets compress almost 3X that much so you need fewer of them to cover the range. You could also buy a Bison 5C spindle chuck. Perhaps more spendy than you're thinking, but it would get you going quick and be a pretty nice tool to use. http://www.brassandtool.com/ It is available in a Set-Tru model too. You could also do pretty good for work holding with a good adjustable 3-jaw or 6-jaw scroll chuck. Its been said that with this type of chuck, one might not need collets at all (there are still reason). I have a Bison 5" 6-jaw Set-Tru chuck and have made an adjustable backplate for a Bison 4" 3-jaw chuck. With these, I can dial in the runout to close to 0.0001". I have a full set of 3C collets, but don't use them much because of having the adjustable chucks. So, why is it you want/need collets? Rick K. Portland, OR ------- Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2002 18:48:02 -0800 (PST) From: Skip Evans Subject: Re: Re: Want to build a collet chuck I guess I really do not need one. I saw a picture of one being built and thought it would be a good project. I have a 4-jaw chuck, but thought this would be a little faster. Skip Evans http://skipevans.homestead.com ------- Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 19:29:35 -0800 From: Rick Kruger Subject: Re: Want to build a collet chuck I'm sort of in you same position. Don't *really* need collets, but I sure do like working with them, so I got 'em. Learned to use collets in my Dad's shop some years ago, on a Monarch 10EE chucker. Popping parts in & out with a push/pull of a handle is nice. When I got a lathe of my own a couple years ago, I was determined to set it up with collets, but was dismayed at how expensive 3Cs could be and how hard to find. Wasn't until I got a South Bend 9A did I manage to come up with a set of 3Cs. Filled in the 64th sizes from a used tool dealer. Have around $400 into them now and still need a few of the smaller sizes. Collets would be lots faster than a 4-jaw. They also don't mark the work piece and can hold tubing. Do you not have a 3-jaw? Good luck in your search. Rick ------- Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 08:41:54 -1000 (HST) From: Tom Benedict Subject: Re: Re: Looking at collets > At 06:43 AM 12/20/2002 -1000, you wrote: >>In answer to your question about collet B, collets can be used for a >>couple of things. In a mill they typically hold cutters. In a lathe they >>can hold material. I've had occasion to hold really tiny stuff, and even >>the smallest collet comes in handy on such occasion. >>To be honest I don't know if cutters come that small. Like you said, >>they'd be flexy if they did. Tom On Fri, 20 Dec 2002, tburns wrote: > Collets are also used for drill bits, and I prefer using them rather > than the chuck, if I have the proper size collet. Especially if I would > have to install the chuck just to drill a hole. Now this raises something I've been wanting to do for small burrs. For CNC milling, there's a lot to be said for easily interchangeable tooling. There's also a lot to be said for having tooling that all has the same Z offset. I've got my end mills mounted in holders so they all have the same Z offset. Makes for quick changes. But for small burrs, having a blank arbor is massive overkill. At one point someone had posted pictures of blank collets that had been drilled out with small set screws in their periphery. Seems like this would be a nice route to go for small burrs as well as drill bits: permanently mount them in blank collets, measure the Z offset of each tool, and tool changes would be quite easy. Tom ------- Date: Sat, 21 Dec 2002 03:10:10 -0000 From: "J Hamilton " Subject: Re: Looking at collets That is a great idea. I suppose one could create a "height gauge" to measure the length from the bottom of the spindle nut to the tool tip...( not really height... depth of cut?) to save a little time and increase accuracy. Nice thought. Jim. ------- Date: Sat, 21 Dec 2002 10:40:25 +0000 From: Steve Blackmore Subject: Re: Re: Looking at collets >That is a great idea. I suppose one could create a "height gauge" >to measure the length from the bottom of the spindle nut to the tool >tip...( not really height... depth of cut?) to save a little time >and increase accuracy. Hi Jim - that's how I used to do mine for "non critical" work. Simply a piece of metal with a U shaped slot. Place tool in collet, it needs to be tight enough to stop it falling out, then slip it over the tool and against the front face of the spindle housing, and move tool up or down until it touches the bottom of the U. The slot needs to be wide enough to clear the closer nut - if you measure off the face of the nut it's not as accurate. It works reasonably - you may find however that the tool moves up when you do the final tightening. Now as Art's Mach1 is up and running reliably, I simple use the tool touch off feature and store the value. I have made a screw on tool holder with fixed a fixed stop that holds disposable 6mm end mills - they are all the same length and it makes changing a worn one easy and accurate. Steve Blackmore ------- Date: Thu, 02 Jan 2003 08:01:23 -0500 From: Ronald Thibault Subject: Re: 5C for 12" lathe? >I was given a box of 16 new Hardige 5C collets. >I have a 12" Atlas/ Craftsman lathe. >Has anyone made an adapter to use 5c for this size lathe? Matthew Matthew; There are 2 5C collet chucks available that can be made to fit the Atlas, when mounted to a backing plate. One is for the Smithy lathes and runs about $90 from Campbell Tools http://www.campbelltools.com/ page 16. This one, I believe, closes the collet with pressure from the front. The other is available from the various mail order places, and is made by Bison. It runs about $290. This one closes the collets from the rear, as they are designed to be used. You can build one. There have been articles in the machining mags about doing this, but none that are in the current issues. Mounting it directly in the spindle without some sort of adapter is not an option. You could make a collar that screws onto the spindle, that the collet would rest in, and make a drawbar that fits through the spindle bore. The collets are an excellent way to hold round stock, accurately and repeatably, once you can mount them. One note collets are not meant to hold stock that is not very close to the collet size (and hole shape). You will ruin the collet. No raw hot rolled stock. Ron Thibault Warrenville, SC USA http://personal.atl.bellsouth.net/t/h/thib9564/ ------- Date: Fri, 3 Jan 2003 09:15:44 -0600 From: "jerdal" Subject: Re: 3MT vs 3C collets > I just picked up a milling attachment for my 10" and am thinking > about a collet system to hold cutters. > I see "3C" as popular, but pricey for collets. > Also I found "3MT" collets for about $18/per. Since these fit > right in the spindle, that's half the battle. Thread the > bottoms, make a drawbar and run? > Is there some disadvantage to using a MT collet ? The "MT" collets have no thru hole, and use a solid drawbar. So you are limited to short work. 3C and the like have a thru hole up to 1/2 or slightly larger diameter (depending on collet type) for the 3MT spindle. For cutters that isn't a problem, but collets are not a good solution for cutters, if you mean milling cutters etc. Use an end mill holder, which also has a drawbar (same one) but has the "weldon" system of holding the cutter, with a setscrew to engage the flat. Cutter won't pull out as it can using collet or chuck. Pullout will ruin your work, and maybe the cutter. In my opinion, btw, the 3C is the best and most available collet for spindles with 3MT tapers. The 3AT used by atlas is long obsolete, and was used by only Atlas and Logan, maybe another company. 3C had probably 10 times the usage then, and is still used in new equipment. Jerrold ------- Date: Fri, 3 Jan 2003 09:42:58 -0600 From: "jerdal" Subject: Re: 3MT vs 3C collets > "3AT" Amazed that you mentioned it but there's a catalog open on > my desk to 3AT collets. Would those be easier to get set up than 3C? > My only fear is machining the mate for the shoulder on the collet. 3AT and 3C are very close. Slight difference in diameter/threading, length, and angle of closing taper, I think. Machining a closer for either should be about the same, except I found the dimensions for 3C on the web at www.zagar.com after digging in their site for a while. I made a 3C closer from those dimensions, and it worked first shot. inside diameter of the closer should be right on the max collet diameter for best performance, as it is an alignment feature. I machined the 3MT outside taper, then bored for the collet diameter, and finally cut the closing taper using the compound. I matched against an angle standard to set the taper, but you could use an actual collet, possibly. Drawbar is pipe turned down to fit, with a threaded nose soldered in, and an aluminum handwheel. I used a sacrificial "tail" on the closer with a drawbar in it to hold in place during machining. That portion was cut off when the piece was completed. Mark the position of the closer during machining, then you can put it back that way for use and get improved concentricity. Jerrold ------- Date: Fri, 3 Jan 2003 11:04:47 -0500 From: "mertbaker" Subject: Re: 3MT vs 3C collets Only ones are: No thru feeding of stock. MTs grab & you have to give 'em a pat on the drawbar to get 'em out or loosen 'em up. 3Cs use a drawtube for thru feeding. Mert ------- Date: Fri, 03 Jan 2003 12:36:49 -0500 From: Stan Stocker Subject: Re: 3MT vs 3C collets Hi Damon; MT collets will already be threaded on the tail to allow the use of a drawbar. Not sure just what size thread is standard, but the catalog likely specifies it. There is a downside to using MT collets. The morse taper is a "slow" taper, the angle is lower than the angle required to be self releasing. You may have noticed that morse taper items tend to stick, and need to be either ejected mechanically as when you retract the tailstock ram and pop out the center, or via a brass rod and mallet as when using a center in the headstock. 3C collets have a straight shank and a fast taper (10 degrees or so), so they release easily, as do 5C and other standard collets. The taper on R8 collets is right at the edge of the zone where the frictional coefficient of the mating surfaces just overcomes the self releasing nature of the faster taper, so R8 tooling often requires a love tap or two to loosen. There are also MT3 endmill holders with drawbar threads. Endmill holders avoid having the end mill creep out of the collet with cutting forces. As a rule, on the mill I use end mill holders for endmills up to 5/8, then use the R8 collets for larger IF I need the extra rigidity provided by reducing the overhang. MT3 endmill holders are less expensive, and you don't have to beat a collet loose to change endmills provided you are using endmills with the same size shanks. Milling in the lathe is one of those "doable" tasks, but the loads tend to be a bit weird for the lathe. You would likely do well to stick to 3/8 inch shank endmills wherever possible to keep the cutting forces under control and help reduce chatter. Cheers, Stan ------- Date: Fri, 3 Jan 2003 13:46:52 -0800 From: Frank Evan Perdicaro Subject: Another collet idea > Subject: 3MT vs 3C collets It is possible to use Ericson 180 collets on the Atlas lathes with the Ericson 3MT adapter. This system is both uncommon and expensive, but does work. I have one of these units for my lathe. ------- Date: Fri, 03 Jan 2003 19:55:26 -0800 From: "Larry Bailey" Subject: Re: Another collet idea Frank, I am using Erickson ER40 collets on my Atlas 12" and my mill. The collet chuck is available in 3MT. I made a draw bar. I got a complete set of collets on eBay. Twenty-three collets cover 1/8-1". I was worried about the stick-out from the spindle, chatter, etc., but it hasn't been much of a problem as long as I am careful, use the steady and tail stock a little more often, etc. The biggest drawback is the inability to pass work through the spindle, but I don't find that to be much of a problem either, since the spindle will only pass 3/4" anyway. FWIW, I cut a lot of stainless and use carbide tooling almost exclusively. I've gotten used to fairly high speeds and dodging the hot stuff. Larry ------- Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 11:39:30 -0500 From: Stan Stocker Subject: Re: Re: Spindle adaptor/collet closer > I think I'm getting my mind wrapped around this project now - I just > need a picture sometimes to understand the whole process. When I make > an adaptor for the 3C collets to fit my 3MT spindle will I need to > plan for some way to knock out the adaptor from the spindle when I > want to remove it or is the fit fragile enough where a tap with a > dead blow hammer on the nose will loosen it enough to pull out? > Seems to me in an erlier thread someone mentioned a collar made for > the pindle that pushed out the insert when the collar was unscrewed. > Am I connecting the wrong dots here? Jerry The South Bend adapter has a shoulder on the outboard end of the adapter. You thread on the spindle nose cap, then put in the 3MT to 3C adapter. When you want to remove the adapter, you just unscrew the nose cap, it bears against the rear of the shoulder and pops the adapter out. Similar idea to retracting the tailstock ram and letting the tip of the screw pop the tailstock center. You can knock out the adapter if you have to, a closely fitted brass or brass tipped knock out bar should be in your kit of lathe tools anyway. It is nice to use the nose cap, helps protect the spindle threads and register. Check out the files section of the South Bend group on Yahoo, they have pictures and dimension of collets and collet closers. Cheers, Stan ------- Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 17:58:06 EST From: n8as1x~xxaol.com Subject: Re: Re: Spindle adaptor/collet closer please ....no knocking on the spindle ......the thrded nose protector will also do double duty as u unscrew ,taking out the adapter...lacking that, a soft alum.faced knockout rod works well best wishes docn8as ------- Date: Sun, 19 Jan 2003 22:30:25 -0600 From: "jerdal" Subject: Spindle adaptor/collet closer One person suggested a reamer for removing burrs etc from the taper bore. Please do not do that, as the reamer will mess up the spindle taper if used in the presence of burrs and raised spots. Maybe not much, but how much destruction of accuracy do you want? Use a small stone to remove the raised spots, and never mind any depressed areas, they won't bother you. Chalk or blue Dykem will show you the raised areas clearly, and tell you when you are done. Grizzly sells some plastic scrapers for cleaning MT spindle tapers. they work very well, good insurance against more dings. Jerrold ------- Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2003 15:16:00 -0500 From: Stan Stocker Subject: Re: Re: 3c collet setup alternative to draw bar? Greetings; ER11 collets have a major diameter of 0.452, an OAL of 0.710, and cover the range of 1/32 inch to 1/4 inch. ER32 collets have a major diameter of 1.3 inch, OAL of 1.578 inch, and cover the range of 3/32 to 3/4 inch. I believe ER series collets are specified of 0.0005 TIR 2 inches from the collet, while DA series collets are specified for 0.0005 TIR at the collet, so ER series are a bit more accurate. DA collets use a simple compression nosepiece, while ER collets use a special nosepiece that also ejects the collet. If you need to work to very tight tolerances in smaller size work on a smaller lathe, but don't want to go to the expense or need the range of of WW collets, the ER11 or ER16 collets would make sense. The level of effort to make a collet chuck to take ER32 series is probably a bit greater than the effort to make a 5C chuck or adaptor, and the collets are quite a bit more expensive as well. I also don't recall seeing ER series in hex or square collets, so that may be a consideration as well. It pretty much comes down to the TIR you can tolerate, the sizes you need to hold, and if you need to hold square or hex stock in addition to round. ER series are 0.0005 TIR 2 inches out from the collet, good 5C collets are 0.0005 one inch from the collet, and DA series are 0.0005 at the collet. If you need to hold larger than 3/4 inch, 5C or possible (very pricey) you can go with ER40 series. If you need to hold smaller than 1/32 inch, WW collets are about it, or possibly an Albrecht 15J0 chuck on a high quality MT3 to J0 adapter. If you have to hold stock that is "close", but not within a few thou of the specifed collet size, DA or ER series are the way to go. 5C collets are only intended to compress a few thou at most. DA collets are claimed to compress a full 1/32. ER series are specified to have a 40 thou range. If you need to hold square or hex stock often enough to want to use collets, 5C is about it. If you just want to hold 1/16 to 1/2 inch round stock, and don't care that your collets are not going to fit spin indexers and such (5C) or end mill grinding fixtures (R8) 3C or 3AT mounted in a carefully made adapter will likely give you as much accuracy as the basic lathe can generate. And for most bang for the buck, if you don't need pass through, square, or hex stock holding, there are always MT3 collets. Range is a bit limited, 1/8 to 1/2 by 16ths, but you can get import ones for around $11 each, or a set of 7 in MT3 for $60 from Little Machine Shop. Make a simple draw bar and your in business. If you want top quality MT collets, Myford sells them for around 30 each, about the same as ER series. I don't know the specified TIR on these, but they are worth consideration. If I were going to go with ER series, I'd probably make a spindle adapter bored dead nuts on to take an ER16 collet chuck with a short 3/4 inch shank. These cost about $70. Add a 10 piece collet set in ER16 for $225 and you cover the 1/32 to 3/8 inch range. In the larger sizes, 5C and DA180 seem a reasonable compromise between TIR and cost, and both are fairly easy to make adapters for. You can also purchase DA series extensions with all the threading and tapers cut to spec, and either make a bored adapter to take it, or hold the shank of the chuck in a good four jaw. The whole collet business is a huge bundle of trade offs. Here's how I've handled it: Simple 5C nosepiece adapters for each of the larger lathes. I have a lot of 5C collets and fixtures that take 5C. An R8 adapter for the SB9, just to do it. Rarely used. R8 fits my endmill grinding fixture and mill, so I have the common sizes. I wouldn't bother if you don't already have R8 anyhow. A set of MT3 collets. Not my favorite, but the best way to get absolute minimal overhang at a low cost. If I lucked into a good set of 3Cs at a good price, I'd make an adapter/drawbar in a flash. DA300 adapter for the Taig. I got a pretty complete set cheap, so it made sense. DA180 adapter for the SB9. Used for stock more than 3 thou undersized so I don't spring my 5C collets. Happy figuring! Might just as well make something to use the collets you already have, you'll end up with several styles in the shop over time anyway! Cheers, Stan ------- Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2003 22:12:46 -0500 From: Stan Stocker Subject: Taig WW spindle question Hi Folks; Could someone confirm the WW headstock from Taig takes standard 8mm WW collets? I understand the Sherline collets are of a slightly different size than the European WW collets (or those made to match them.) I have a chance to purchase a fairly thorough set of Swiss made WW collets that are new old stock from some friends of mine that are equipment dealers. My friends tend to handle much larger equipment, and freely admit that jewelers/watchmakers tooling is completely alien to them. They just happened to end up with these items when they did a large buy of an entire shop. They also have a WW spindle lathe available at a nice price that might do just fine. I'll hopefully be able to check it out Tuesday night, if it's in good shape then I'm gold. If not, I'll need to: 1) buy a Taig WW headstock 2) buy a watchmakers lathe 3) make a watchmakers style lathe (yes, I have larger tools and a surface grinder) or 4) make an adapter to fit WW collets to the Taig. Option 1 or 4 are my initial preferences, with buying a WW headstock seeming best. Thanks for any advice or help you can offer. Stan ------- Date: Sun, 26 Jan 2003 06:27:33 -0000 From: "collectric " Subject: Re: Taig WW spindle question Stan Stocker wrote: > Hi Folks; Could someone confirm the WW headstock from Taig takes > standard 8mm WW collets? ** The 8mm collets I had would NOT fit and some of the WW American collets were too tight. No problem, push the spindle key up out of the way and run an 8mm drill into the spindle. Push the key back down and all is well. It was about a 60 second job. ALL the jewelers lathe collets now work great. Tom ------- Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2003 11:08:24 -0500 From: Nick Hull Subject: Re: Collet closer OK, I'm not usually a precision machinist; I do a lot of stuff quick & dirty. I need collets not for precision but to hold thin walled tubing etc. And while I would love to have a 5C closer on my tiny 6" Craftsman, often I need to hold tapered tubing (think brass cartridge cases). My solution is to bore a short plastic rod to the desired size/taper and mark the direction of the chuck handle, then cut the plastic there. I usually use a 3-jaw chuck for speed, but if I need more accuracy I put my 'collet' in a 4-jaw and indicate the work piece. Not very elegant, but works on tapered pieces and I can cheaply make any size I want. ------- Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2003 16:17:21 -0500 From: "mertbaker" Subject: Re: Re: Collet closer You can make "collets" for use in the 3 jaw chuck. Bore the hole just right, & cut 1 slit into the hole. Clamp in the 3 jaw. Just the thing for eccentrics, too. Mert ------- Date: Sat, 03 May 2003 08:09:21 -0700 From: "Larry Bailey" Subject: Re: Re: er32 collet closer and 5c closer [atlas_craftsman >From: "jdmichael2001" >joekott1, >I have no experience with the Beall chuck so can't comment on it >specifically. I do have an ER chuck and closer I made for my 12" and >have not noticed any deflection. I'm generally using smallish stock >(under 3/4") so its strength is fairly low compared to the chuck >itself and so I'm usually working close to the chuck. Anything very >long needs tailstock support anyway and deflection can be a problem >but it's not the chuck's fault. I find it a nice way to work. Jan >--- In atlas_craftsmanx~xxyahoogroups.com, "joekott1" wrote: >> I have a quick question for those of you who have collet chucks that >> extend beyond the threaded part of the spindle (the collet is not >> contained within the spindle). When you are turning a part using a >> collet chuck like this have you had any problems with the part >> deflecting? Especially during parting operations and singlepointing. >> threads. I am interested in a collet chuck sold by Beall tool here >> in Ohio -- threads onto the spindle and uses ER32 CNC collets. I think >> the adapter and a set of 5 collets is listed for about $160. I do not >> think this will be an issue but I am concerned that the chuck will >> deflect when turning. I would guess that as long as I don't do >> anything foolish this shouldnt be a problem. Am I overanalyzing this >> or is this a problem with this style collet chuck? In general, what >> opinions do you have of this style collet chuck? Thanks for your help! I routinely use an ER-40 chuck with a 3MT shank and draw bar. It isn't as rigid as collets contained within the spindle, but, as the other poster wrote, it's not a real problem and is very convenient. Use tailstock or steady support as necessary. The drawback to this type of chuck is that you can't pass stock through the collet and spindle. Larry ------- Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2003 19:32:38 -0000 From: "Jim" Subject: Drawbar for Morse #3 collets I thought it might be good to share some information with the group. Recently I fabricated a simple drawbar to use on my Atlas/Craftsman 101.28990. A 10 inch 3/8-16 bolt was used. I removed the head and trimmed the overall length to 9 ½ inches. Next a 3-inch diameter straight bore hand wheel was drilled and tapped for a 10-32 setscrew. The hand wheel was installed at the cut end of the 3/8 bolt. A ½ OD, 1-inch long, 3/8 bore, bronze bushing was pressed into the bore of a flanged bronze bushing, this bushing has a 15/16 flange, and ¾ inch long with a ½ bore. The bushing assembly was slipped on to the shaft next to the 3-inch hand wheel. A small groove was made in the shaft, just below the bushing, to hold a 3/8-inch E-Clip. The E-Clip keeps the bushing in place. I allowed .030 clearance between the end of the bushing and the E-Clip to provide smooth operation. The hand wheel was purchased from ENCO. Part number 990-3277 for $8.87. A set of Morse #3 taper round collets was purchased from Little Machine.com. They are imports, not bad for my use, and cost $ 89.95 for a set of 11 that cover the range 1/8 to ¾ inch. The bronze bushings were purchased from a local industrial hardware store for $4.00. JIM --Las Vegas,Nv. ------- Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2003 13:41:10 -1000 (HST) From: Tom Benedict Subject: Re: REALLY simple question [taigools] > Looking an entering the world of Taig metal working with a lathe & > milling accessories. Making small parts primarily out of Aluminum. > Amateur woodworker & woodturner (Nova lathe), accomplished home > mechanic, NO machining background. Well, I can admit to having a machining background but very little background in woodworking. I'm also trying out woodturning, and have a LOT of respect for people who can do that. If you can hold a tool steady and turn out two identical table legs, using a metal turning lathe is going to be a quick learn for you. > Question: To what end do you need to get the collets & closer? > Would you not have greater flexibility holding the milling bits, etc., > with a Jacobs chuck fixed on the headstock? The Jacobs chuck isn't entirely designed for grabbing end mills. They're typically made for grabbing something with a soft shank. Most drills have hardened cutting surfaces, but the shanks are left soft. The Jacobs chuck really kinda needs that in order to work well. End mills are hardened throughout. Be that as it may I've done it. You have to be careful and take lighter cuts than if you had it mounted in a collet or tool holder, but it's doable. > Trying to determine what parts are necessary vs. a luxury when starting > out. I'd definitely get the collets. They can be used on the lathe for gripping really small stock. The runout on the collets is typically quite low, so you don't have to dink around with indicating the stock in when you use them. I got a set with my lathe and with my mill, so I've got two. To tell the truth it's sometimes nice to have the extras. One point I'm not sure is made strongly enough on the Taig site: If you get a lathe and a mill, keep in mind that accessories for the one fit the other. The collets will work in the mill and in the lathe. You can even get a 4-jaw chuck for the lathe and stick it on the mill. It's a nice design. The larger question you're asking is a little tougher to answer. I use all my accessories quite often. If you asked me if they're luxuries or necessities, I'd probably laugh my heartiest laugh and say, "They're all wonderfully luxurious necessities!" In the strictest sense almost none of them are necessary. Dave Gingery wrote an excellent set of books on how to make a machine shop from scratch. Among other things he shows you how to start with a raw casting, generate a faceplate, use that to generate angle brackets, use those to generate other tooling, and use all of it to generate a four jaw chuck. (Ok, so he actually begins earlier than that and shows you how to generate a lathe out of scrap metal and casting sand.) But you get the idea. That being said, I'd still consider some things to be necessary. Not from the standpoint of "It will technically be impossible to do things without them", but from the standpoint of, "It's a heckuva lot more fun WITH them." The collets are one. A four-jaw chuck and test dial indicator are others. Multiple toolposts so each tool can be shimmed up in its own toolholder is another. A Jacobs chuck and tailstock is another. These are things I use almost daily. It's important that your tools not frustrate you to the point that you put them down and don't pick them up. Luxuries are sometimes more necessary than we give them credit for. When I first tooled up I tried to get only what I needed. In the end I went back and got the other stuff as well. Tom ------- Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2003 10:54:15 -0800 From: Frank Evan Perdicaro Subject: Quickie collet chucks For the 10" and 12" lathes, you can buy a nut to screw onto the spindle. It is a standard McMaster Carr part, with a cost of a few dollars. Face and bore the nut to have a proper register, screw it on and then decide what collet to use. A simple ring welded in the nut will let you use MT 3 collets without a drawbar. Use of R8 collets requires a bit of weld then a cut to the R8 taper. Of course you can buy a real collet chuck, but by starting with a nut that screws on to the spindle you can get some useful results at low cost and small time investment. ------- Date: Thu, 04 Dec 2003 18:31:10 -0000 From: "pobryan2000" Subject: Re: Quickie collet chucks If you are going to weld a machined part I suggest you do it before you do the final machining as the welding will probably change the dimensions of the part. It might not even be round afterwards. Just my 2 cents. Pat ------- Date: Thu, 04 Dec 2003 18:46:43 -0000 From: "jdmichael2001" Subject: Re: Quickie collet chucks That's true, but in this instance it probably doesn't matter. If I'm following Frank's suggestion correctly, the nut and ring are only a hold-down for the MT3 collet. The spindle has an MT3 taper, so the collet actually registers with the spindle bore. If that's true, then the "face and bore to have a proper register" doesn't really matter either. I'm less clear how he envisions using the R8. If the nut is machined for the R8 taper, then it should be registered with the spindle and bored for concentricity. The key to prevent rotation is an open question, it would be more accurate with a bored hole to support the inside end of the collet, and an R8 does need a drawbar. Jan ------- Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2003 10:17:51 -0800 From: Frank Evan Perdicaro Subject: More on quickie collet chucks Yes, for MT3 collets the nut just has to press the collet into the bore. Simple and fast. But the nuts I have are much longer than the threading on the spindle, so they need to be bored to register on the spindle. Sure it would be possible to just tighten up the nut until it stops turning, but even hackers like me would probably not do that. For R8 you can add a sleeve to the inside of the nut, making as much of an R8 taper as you can. rough it out, then weld it in the nut -- remember the nuts are pretty long. Finish bore and you are almost there. Drill the assembly and add a pin. File the pin to shape for standard R8 and glue in with Locktite. Add a drawbar and you are done. Stepping back for a minute, do you really need a key? Probably not. If you are driving your Atlas spindle with a 2 hp motor you will be making a heap of broken parts. My Bridgeport has a 1 hp motor and no key; in practice there is not much of a problem having no key in the R8 bore. These are quickie collet chucks. You can buy nice ones in the $1000 range, but these can be done in the $10 range if you buy the nut and use some scrap. With a modest amouont of care you should be able to get runout perfectly acceptable for random shop/household use. ------- Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2003 17:24:52 -0800 From: "Orrin Iseminger" Subject: Re: mill collet grip capabilities The end mill holder versus collet argument raises its ugly head from time to time. Those who advocate end mill holders are the ones who have spoiled a piece of work by using a collet. Those who advocate collets are the ones who've been lucky, so far. They'll get theirs, sooner or later. Use an end mill holder. Orrin p.s. I've been told that end mills slip in collets because it is extremely hard for one smooth, hardened surface to grip another smooth, hardened surface. So, that's why end mill holders are recommended. A setscrew fitting into a flat on the end mill shank will prevent slippage. Why do end mill manufacturers put that flat on the shank? For collets? No. For end mill holders. ------- Date: Dec 2003 From: "Wm. Dubin" Subject: Re: mill collet grip capabilities I use collets only for mill's 1/8" or smaller... usually I use them with a 1/32" ball end mill. For obvious reasons, both the depth and speed of cut must be kept in mind with a mill this small, and so I've never had a problem. For larger mill sizes, I wouldn't use the Sherline, but would go up to 5C collets. I use these in a set of square/hexigon block holders (again with the sherline mill, but this time the cutter is in an end mill holder and the work is in the 5C collet. Wm. ------- Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2003 08:59:02 -0800 From: "Marcus and Eva" Subject: Re: mill collet grip capabilities I have been following this thread with some interest; here are my notions, for what they're worth: End mill holders are a perfectly legitimate way to hold milling cutters provided the following is kept in mind. *First, the concentricity of the cutter in the holder depends on the diameter of the cutter!!!! Repeat this to yourselves three times, because I've seen lots of guys who really should know better, totally ignore this, and wind up with all kinds of undesirable consequences. What is the solution: buy only a single brand of cutter, and make sure it's from a reputable manufacturer. My personal choices are Garr for carbide and Niagara for HSS. Make sure the end mill holder is the correct size for the cutter...this means, if you're fussy about runout, that your endmill holder NEEDS to be home made, on the spindle on which it will be run, and it NEEDS to be single point bored and then lapped or honed to size. Do it any other way, and you're fooling yourself about your cutter runout. You want no more than 0.0002" diameter difference between the cutter diameter and the bore size of the holder. *Second point: cutter runout matters only under some very specific conditions. Small cutters care much more than large cutters do, unless you are concerned about the longevity of the cutter. When an undersize cutter is clamped in a nominally sized hole, the cutter will swing eccentrically like a crankshaft. This means that only one flute will cut, but it will still theoretically cut the same size as the bore that the cutter was put into. On a big cutter, no problem. But on a small cutter, the eccentric slapping will break the cutter. The same is true for very small drilling ...if the drill is forced to walk an eccentric path it will be forced to flex continuously as it rotates. As the constrained end gets closer to the job, the forces get higher and higher; eventually breaking the drill. * Third point...collets are rarely much better than properly set up end mill holders for runout. Try clamping a dowel pin in a mill collet sometime and see how repeatable it is. This usually becomes far more apparent once the collet and chuck have been used a bit...for obvious reasons. * Fourth point...collets are far more flexible than end mill holders... especially spring collets like the ER series. They'll hold a bigger range of diameters, all with roughly the same concentricity, and very importantly, they allow you to clamp the shank at a variety of lengths ...short and stubby for heavy cutting, as well as long reach for access to features deep in the part. * Fifth point...end mill holders are cheap (especially home made) and collets are pricey. * Last point: both are perfectly adequate means to hold your cutters if they are used properly: Collets will allow a cutter to crawl out (unless they're a style like the Clarkson Autolock), so you can't take as heavy a bite without risking cutter protrusion. Hope this all helps Cheers Marcus ------- Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2003 21:13:00 -0400 From: "Neil Albert" Subject: RE: mill collet grip capabilities >>>Hi, Neil: Have you thought of buying a blank arbor from Taig (the headstock threads are the same as on the Sherline headstock), cutting about 0.09 inches off of the threaded end, and boring the blank end to hold the 1/4 inch diameter mill? You'd then grind a flat on the side of the endmill and put a setscrew on the arbor. I've done this same operation, but to make a 1/2 inch diameter end mill holder for a few cutters. -- Jerry <<< Jerry, I just looked at it and the price is certainly right, but I don't know if I trust myself to bore a nicely centered hole using my mill spindle as a lathe and holding a tool bit in a vice. Neil ------- Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2003 22:03:29 -0800 From: zephyrusx~xxrickadee.net Subject: RE: mill collet grip capabilities Works like a charm, Neil. I did exactly that when I made 5 or 6 endmill holders for/on my 5400. I drilled comfortably undersize and then snuck up on the diameter with many small boring passes. I raised the head way up after each pass and tried the hole using an endmill that I had miked to be sure of its own diameter. It was no harder to set "center height" of the boring bar on the mill than on the lathe (the steel rule trick.) I left them about .001" undersize, then reamed with a .375" reamer using a drill press mainly to take out the residual taper (I stopped boring when the endmill would just barely enter the beginning of the bore.) Best regards, Randy ------- Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2003 12:35:52 -0400 From: "Neil Albert" Subject: RE: mill collet grip capabilities Randy, Now, you just reminded me of what additional item I needed from Sherline when I placed an order for a 1/4" end mill holder-the smaller of the 2 size Sherline boring bars. The one I have only goes down to 5/16". Using the boring head, would I hold the blank arbor in a vice? What IS the steel rule trick. The only way I can think of the get the "center height" (or center windage in this case, I guess) would be to use my edge finder one or both sides of the arbor's diameter. Neil ------- Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2004 01:52:49 EST From: anthrhodesx~xxaol.com Subject: Re: Collet Chuck: Design Wanted Fri, 16 Jan 2004, Nigel Spurr writes: << Atlas did produce a lever operated collett system. It should not be too difficult to make one. Afer all, Hardinge merely use a threaded drawbar that is nipped tight by a lever and Hardinge lathes are VERY good. Having used a Hardinge, I can help in the design of a system. >> I would greatly appreciate any assistance with the design of such a system. The thing about a lever operated drawbar is that it includes a clutching mechanism that keeps the drawbar under tension (to keep the collet closed) while enabling the bearing in the operating lever to be released from load except during the act of engaging or disengaging the collet. When the collet is engaged there is no load on the bearing. When the collet is disengaged there is no load on the bearing. The only times when there is any load on the bearing id during the trasition from fully disengaged to fully engaged or vice versa. This is the same kind of mechanism which is used on clutch/brake devices for engaging a machine drive or stopping a spindle from speed. In the case of the lever operated drawbar, there is a cam that rides concentric with the drawbar but is not directly attached to the drawbar. During movement of the cam to the engaged position it moves fingers on a bracket which *is* attached to the drawbar. This bracket and the fingers are placed on the drawbar in such a position that the movement of the fingers pry on the back of the spindle to pull on the drawbar. While the collet is engaged there is tension on the drawbar but not on the operating lever and its bearing. It's a tricky piece of work requiring fine design. While I am interested in things specifically related to Atlas lathes I'm also interested in designs and principles which can be applied to any machine. Additionally, as I have a 6" lathe the lever collet chuck for 9/10/12" lathes is of little use to me. Furthermore, I don't think the Atlas lever collet chuck is available new from Clausing at this time and, if I'm wrong about that, would be far, far out of my price range, as are the used ones that become available on eBay and through other sources. Many of you make small IC engines, steam engines, clock works, microscopes and telescopes, etc. In many cases these items could be purchased, sometimes at a price less than it costs you to make them yourselves, but still you'd rather make them. Many people think that it's not reasonable to try to make attachments that the lathe manufacturer didn't offer, but keep in mind that the manufacturer's interests are not necessarily the same as yours. If they consider something to not be commercially viable or if they come in conflict with patent considerations they will likely not offer to you what you can then make for yourself without having to concern yourself with either of these issues. To illustrate the commercial viability issue, at one timeAtlas offered a Toolroom Taper Attachment which was infinitely superior to the simple version that you commonly see, but it was also much more expensive. I presume they dropped it because they didn't get enough sales to justify retaining it in the catalog. All of the devices that are offered on machine tools were created at some time in the past. It can be fascinating reading about there creation and development. In many cases they were created by tinkeres, not huge corporations with fancy machining facilities. Don't be limited just because you can't go down to the local hardware store and buy these attachments off the shelf. If that's your attitude, why have a machine tool at all, after all, all those corporations know what's good for us and what we ought to be interested in. If they don't offer it we obviously shouldn't want it. << Also chronos.co.uk supply a range of MT3 collets which avoids having to make a collet adaptor. >> Due to the limitations (no through passage) and drawbacks (not self releasing) of Morse Taper collets they don't much interest me. Anthony Berkeley, Calif. ------- NOTE TO FILE: There is an extensive discussion of Sherline and Taig WW and 8mm collets and what they will/will-not fit earlier in this file. ------- Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2004 23:17:01 -0000 From: "jnj1097" Subject: Re: WW Metric Collets Hi Daniel: Yes, Sherline makes a collet adaptor for 8mm collets... You can also use a boring bar to "kiss" the bore on your standard WW collet adaptor and that should work as well. The only thing with either Sherline collet adaptors is that they are for WW collets, and I don't know if the Levin or Boley will fit the taper. Someone help with that? Jeff ------- Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2004 01:32:14 -0000 From: "n2562001" Subject: Re: WW Metric Collets Jeff: The Sherline 8mm collet adaptor will accept Levin and Boley WW collets but not Levin "D" style collets. Jerry Kieffer ------- Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2004 17:14:55 -0000 From: "n2562001" Subject: Re: Levin Collets on a Sherline Lathe Dan, what is the body diameter of your levin collets? Is the Thread .275x40? Jerry Kieffer ------- Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2004 15:37:07 -0500 From: "Statman Designs, LLC" Subject: Re: Re: Levin Collets on a Sherline Lathe All is well now. I just spun the adapter in the lathe and ran some emery cloth through the bore. It just need about 1 thou taken off to open the diameter. Now all the Levin 8mm collets fit in the Sherline adapter. If I put a DTI on the Sherline spindle Morse Taper there is about 1 thou of indicated runout. All of the Levin collets seem to have no measurable runout above the 1 thou of the spindle. I couldn't measure all of them since I do not have round stock in 0.1mm increments, and I do not have 5 hours time to check them all, ;-). But the 5 or 6 I checked were all perfect. Daniel J. Statman, Statman Designs www.statmandesigns.com dan.statmanx~xxrennlist.com ------- Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2004 21:39:06 -0000 From: "n2562001" Subject: Re: Levin Collets on a Sherline Lathe Dan, the reason I asked for the diameter is that I have seen three different body sizes in Levin WW collets. Sherline also makes two different WW adaptors. It sounds like you may have the .314" or .315" body collets. If so the Sherline adaptor part number 11560 will except these collets without modification if you decide to order extra adaptors. Jerry Kieffer ------- Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2004 16:47:44 -0500 From: "Statman Designs, LLC" Subject: Re: Re: Levin Collets on a Sherline Lathe They measure with my caliper (not the most accurate) at about .315", and the Sherline ones that I have measure at about 0.313". If my math is correct then 8/25.4 = .315". Is the difference between the two adapters that Sherline sells listed on their website, because I could not find anything about it. Dan. ------- Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2004 05:05:31 -0000 From: "psddiesel2000" Subject: Re: Turret Lathe Tooling --- In atlas_craftsmanx~xxyahoogroups.com, "Damon" wrote: > Just wondering why turrets always seem to have straight > shank tooling, but tailstocks commonly have tapered tooling. > My 10" Atlas has 3/4" bores in the turret and I'm also > looking at a W&S with straight bores. Any thoughts on why this is? > I'm tempted to bore out the atlas setup to MT. -Damon The majority of your mill tooling is round shank. The 3/4 shank is common on mill tools so you are set up for that. I have a turret that has interchangeable heads. One head is a combination of 1/4 and 3/8 holes with one #2 MT. The other head is 1/2 and 3/4 holes with a #3 MT. With the #3 MT I use a #3 MT collet set for variable sizing. Just some thoughts for you. ------- Date: Sun, 08 Feb 2004 16:02:58 -0000 From: "spider5911" Subject: collet Atlas offered an accessory for the 10"lathes called Draw-in Collet Chuck No.750. How many Split Collets were in a complete set? Scott QC54 ------- Date: Sun, 08 Feb 2004 22:17:07 -0000 From: "carbure2003" Subject: Re: collet Collets are available in 1/64" increment up to 1/2". Atlas was offering them in 1/32" increment starting at 1/32" Two different styles of collets will fit the Atlas lathe. The 750 collet chuck attachment is for 3AT collets. You can also fit 3C or 1A collets. Hardinge manufactures 3C collets to almost any size between 1/64" to 1/2. The important piece to have is the nose piece. The draw bar is easy to manufacture and I wouldn't buy it unless it is a deal! If you have the taper attachment, then it is easy to manufacture the nose piece. Guy Cadrin ------- Date: Sun, 8 Feb 2004 22:40:38 -0800 From: "Spurrs" Subject: Re: Re: collet If you are looking to buy collets, look for 3MT they will fit directly into a 10" spindle. All you need to make is the drawbar. The only drawback (sorry) is that the stock length is limited. It should not be too difficult to replace the drawbar with a nut over the spindle nose and push the collet closed instread of pull it, as with milling collet systems. Nigel ------- Date: Mon, 09 Feb 2004 03:54:58 -0000 From: "carbure2003" Subject: Re: collet At first I tried MT3 Collet. As you say you are limited for the length. You are also limited with the number of collets that are by increment of 1/16". I do a lot of model work and I found that it is a major advantage to be able to have an extra long rod in the headstock. In my case I chose 3C collets because they are much easier to find. Guy Cadrin ------- Date: Sun, 8 Feb 2004 22:14:09 -0600 From: "jerdal" Subject: Re: Re: collet The making of a closer is not that hard. All it takes is a decent indicator of the type similar to a "last word". Set compound up parallel to nose taper, and cut the taper on the blank. If its a little short of the full depth, that's fine, since the collet has to stick thru for drawtube threads. So the limited travel of the compound is OK. If you thread a drawbar hole in the end, you can then put the tapered blank in the spindle and bore the collet hole and closing taper. Bore the hole longer so you can cut off the drawbar end when done to allow the collet to fit through. For 3C, go to www.zagar.com and find the workholding page that has full dimensions for 3C and 5C, including taper angles, which most dimension drawings fail to give. By doing it in your spindle, and marking the position so you can put it back in the same position it was made, you may actually be more accurate than a generic toleranced one put in any old way. Jerrold ------- Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2004 01:46:48 -0500 From: "mertbaker" Subject: Re: Re: collet You don't need the taper att., as you can make the closer very easily with the compound set for the tapers. Mert ------- Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2004 19:54:29 -0000 From: "n2562001" Subject: Re: ww collets >>> Just curious... How small do WW collets go? Also, I've seen a bunch of threads where people have warned that not all WW collets are the same. If, for some oddball reason, I wound up getting a WW headstock and went in quest of WW collets, what should I look for? I'm not there YET, but I'm increasingly doing work on really small round things. I'm guessing I'd be happier with a WW headstock for at least some of this stuff. Tom <<< Tom: The capacity of a standard #1 WW collet is .0039" or .1 mm. A typical WW collet will have a .312" to .3135" body with a .275"x40 thread. Anything other than this will probably not fit a standard WW collet holder. 8mm collets look the same but have a .315" body with a .275"x 40 thread. ( most of the time) The Taig WW Spindle could be bored to except both collets. If you purchase a Taig spindle I would suggest using a close fitting steel draw bar rather than the brass one Taig has supplied in the past. High quality hardened used WW watch collets are getting harder to find at a reasonable price. New Hardened collets can be as much as $100.00 each. New unhardened collets such as Sherline are very serviceable and accurate but will not take the abuse that hardened collets will. But then again they are only a fraction of the cost. Jerry Kieffer ------- Date: Mon, 3 May 2004 10:05:07 -0400 From: "Curtis Martin" Subject: Cheap Homemade HS Drawbar for 2MT Collets Just uploaded the picture of my first "home-made" tool for my Atlas 10100 lathe to the group photos folder. [atlas_craftsman group] Scrounging around the local scrap/junk dealer netted a set of six Royal 2MT Collets (Sizes 3/16" through 1/2") and a handwheel (off an unknow piece of machinery). Six bucks total (buck a piece for the collets and the handwheel was a freebie ;-) Took a length of steel rod, threaded the end of it 3/8"-16, cut it to length and pinned on the handwheel. The steel bushing is a piece of scrap, turned on the lathe to make the 45 degree cones so the handwheel end of the drawbar will center itself on the spindle. Not bad for a under $10 project if I do say so myself ;-) Curt Martin Ormond Beach, Florida http://www.clmartin.dyndns.org ------- Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2005 20:53:14 -0500 From: "Charles & Dorothy Brumbelow" Subject: Re: Re: Making a drawbar help needed. > Can someone here please give me the directions for making > a simple drawbar that will fit my 2MT collets with 3/8 x 16th ends. Down and dirty... Get a piece of 3/8" "All-Thread" rod at your friendly local hardware store along with one of the splice nuts for All-Thread and a standard hex nut to fit. Add a water (or other) valve handle with a boss large enough to fit or be drilled out to fit the All-Thread. Maybe get a small tube of Loc- Tite while you are there. Turn one end of the splice nut conical enough to center in the back of the spindle. Thread the rod into a collet and insert rod first into the spindle hole. Leave one or two threads in the collet unused. Screw the splice nut on the back of the rod snug against the spindle. Maybe Loc-Tite the nut to the rod but not the spindle. Next put the handle on the rod, Loc-tite again. Lastly put the regular hex nut on, once again Loc-Tite. Cut off any excess All-Thread. Get a piece of 1/2" brass rod, about the same length as the spindle, for tapping out the collet once the holder is unscrewed and removed. Charles ------- Date: Sun, 04 Jul 2004 00:36:33 -0000 From: "n2562001" Subject: Re: Collet Precision - CNC Mill [taigtools group] > Just received my new CNC mill last week, have it all setup for > backlash, etc and been "playing" around making some of my first > jewellery wax models. Love the machine but have one qualm. > Considering this is a precision machine, I was suprised at the > quality of the collets (the machining is extremely rough). I am > using fairly small ball nose mills with cutting diameters of 1/32" > and 1/16" and will probably use some as small as 1/64". > I have found that I am getting a runout of anywhere from 0.005" to > 0.007", if I use a 0.015" dia cutter -that's 50% of the diameter! > According to TAIG, they have never had any problems with this. > Are there any other suppliers of 1/8" and 3/16" collets to fit this > machine that are precision machined? Richard, having worked with very small end mills on a regular basis for the past ten years or so, maybe I can make a suggestion. In defense of Taig, It is my opinion that it is not practical to manufacture collets for $3.90 that will have the consistent accuracy needed for .015" endmills. I do not agree with their manufacturing philosophy but thats another story. No one else that I know of manufactures Taig collets. I had a number of problems with small end mills down to .005" until I went to WW collets. You could switch over to a Taig WW spindle. However I would not suggest holding end mills larger than 1/16" in WW collets even though I do it all of the time. From time to time I have had larger end mills slip under heavy load. If you make the change I would also suggest you fit to a steel draw bar, (.275"x40Tpi) If Taig is still suppling the brass one. The draw bar needs to be tight to properly hold the end mills. This will cause the brass threads to wear and they will eventually bind over the top of the collet thread. The first WW draw bar I machined was brass and caused untold grief when the whole assembly friction fitted its self together while closing the collet. Steel drawbars and WW collets are available from Sherline or most watch supply house`s. High qaulity used WW collets and draw bars are still available but getting harder to find. The Sherline draw bar will require minor machining and a bushing to fit properly. Larger end mills could and should be held in a end mill holder that threads to the spindle. Good Luck Jerry Kieffer ------- Date: Sun, 04 Jul 2004 08:47:35 +0100 From: Tony Jeffree Subject: Re: Re: Collet Precision - CNC Mill Another alternative, which I believe is soon to be offered by Taig but which can be done on a DIY basis fairly easily, is to replace the Taig spindle with one that takes ER16 collets. It is possible to buy ER16 collet chucks with parallel shanks long enough to do the job - the shank is generally 16mm diam, so it is necessary either to machine a couple of bushes to fit them to the 17mm ID bearings that Taig use, or to replace the bearings with 16mm ID/40mm OD bearings which are obtainable. I have the bits to do this lying on my bench right now, but haven't as yet obtained the necessary supply of round tuits to complete the job. The obvious advantages are that ER16 collets are reasonably priced, accurate, and are available from a wide variety of sources. They also have a wide gripping range, so a complete metric or imperial set should give full coverage (i.e., you don't have to have both the metric set and the imperial set). Regards, Tony ------- Date: Sun, 04 Jul 2004 14:09:27 -0000 From: "n2562001" Subject: Re: Collet Precision - CNC Mill Tony, I have the option of using ER collets on my mill but do not use them for a couple of reasons. first the physical size of the closer nut makes it very difficult to see and position the small short end mills. When you can`t see what you are doing these tiny expensive mills can easily be history before you get started. Second the cost of qauality ER collets with the consistent accuracy needed for tiny end mills are almost twice the cost of WW collets. The speed at which the collets can changed when using small tooling for some operations may also be a consideration. For this the WW system is much faster. For larger tooling the ER system is far superior to the WW system. Jerry Kieffer ------- Date: Sun, 04 Jul 2004 22:15:02 -0000 From: "n2562001" Subject: Re: Collet Precision - CNC Mill Steve, when you have a .015" end mill that has a .025" long flute, it will work best if the cutting area of the mill is held as close to the collet nose as possible. If you extend the mill out as far as the 1/8" or less shank will allow (about one inch) you will start to increase runout and lower the stability needed to prevent breakage. I have had my best luck with small mills (.030" or so and under)) when the tip is only about .100" to .150" from the nose of the collet. A WW collet nose is only about .400" in dia. and covers far more than I would like it to for a clear view of the mill. This is only my experience. I sure don`t have a problem with what ever works for anyone else. In regard to collet pricing. Qaulity for qaulity I have always had to pay almost twice as much for ER collets as WW collets. Of course I can buy cheap collets but I found the higher priced Quality collets to be a far better value for the dollar. They do the job correctly the first time and every time. I should back up and say I have bought a fair amount of cheap crap from China. I keep it around for people who like to borrow things. They always bring it back and never ask to borrow it again. Jerry Kieffer ------- Date: Sat, 3 Jul 2004 07:11:22 -1000 (HST) From: benedictx~xxhawaii.rr.com Subject: Re: Re: Collet Precision - CNC Mill Jerry, I'm curious. You said you use WW collets for holding tiny end mills, but that you don't reccommend it. Given all the choices available, what would be the best way to hold tiny end mills? Right now 1/32" is the smallest I use, but at some point I can see winding up using tinier tooling. Tom ------- Date: Sun, 04 Jul 2004 23:21:33 -0000 From: "n2562001" Subject: Re: Collet Precision - CNC Mill Tom, I think I mentioned that I recommended using WW collets for small or tiny end mills but no larger than 1/16". What I meant was a cutter diameter of no larger than 1/16". A 1/16" or 1/32" mill will generally have a 3/16" shank and can be held with a 3/16" or no.48 WW collet. I generally use 1/8" to 3/16" end mills held by WW collets but would not recommend it under heavy loads. I have had them slip from time to time. For small mills I like either ER or Mt (Morris-taper) collets for larger tooling. I know a lot of people like end mill holders, but for small mills I am uncomfortable with the end of the mill (1/4"- 3/8") extended as far from the spindle nose as they are with most holders. End mills are far more stable and give a cleaner more accurate cut when located as close to the spindle nose as possible. My opinion of course. Jerry Kieffer ------- Date: Sun, 4 Jul 2004 22:09:07 -0500 From: "jwalters" Subject: Re: Re: Collet Precision - CNC Mill For anyone interested in using the best ER style collets and chucks made, check out the Rego-Fix.com web site. I understand this is the Swiss company that developed the ER style collet. They sell collets as small as ER8 that have an open size of 1mm that will clamp down to smaller than anyone should ever need. An option for a high precision spindle is to adapt an ER collet to Taig, check out their standard straight shank collet chucks and carefully adapt it to fit the Taig spindle bearings. The quality of the collet nut greatly influences the precision of any collet. Rego-Fix make the best collets, collet chucks and collet nuts I have ever used. Check out their web site, the information is there, keep clicking on page extensions until you find the ER collet section. I hope this helps. John Walters ------- Re: 3C Collets [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: "EARL BOWER" earl.bower1x~xxverizon.net Date: Thu Jul 6, 2006 8:52 am (PDT) John Williams wrote: > I have a factory 3AT collet setup for my 12x36 lathe. What will I have to do to make them compatible with 3C? Would like to be able to use regular 3C collets and maybe a 3C pot chuck and external closer from a SB9 on my lathe. Don't want to buy one if it won't work. The 3C seems close in every dimension except length is 6/16 longer. so, I may need to shim the drawbar. Will the 3at closer be ok or will I have to use a 3C one? Will the locating pin be compatible? None of the dimension drawings that I have looked at show measurements of the tapered section. Need to hear from someone that has really done this. Found lots of opinions on various sites but no firm facts...John < John: You will need to use the 3C collet adapter from the South Bend. As to the length of the tube you will have to use the South Bend and make a spacer. The spindle lengths are different as are the threads on the collets different. Earl Bower www.bowermachineandtool.com ------- Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2004 08:54:04 -0700 From: "Marcus and Eva" Subject: Re: Fw: Newbie: ? about chucks [subject veered to collets] > >Todd, Just in case you don't know what TIR is. > >"Total Indicator Reading" when checking concentricity. > >Another way, Take a larger piece of stock, predrill some holes for > >setscrews along its length, chuck it up. > >Drill and carefully bore it out for a SFNS* to your work. > >Now slip your work in and tighten up the setscrews and complete your > >piece. I would recommend no mar nylon front setscrews. > >*"Slip Fit, No Shake" Regards, Jerry G (Glickstein) I have been following this [sherline group] thread for a bit, and one thing I haven't seen mentioned yet, is the option of making your own collet chuck AND MAKING THE COLLETS TOO!!! The problem with aftermarket collets on a tiny machine like the Sherline is that they're all the wrong shape for snugging up close to the front spindle bearing, and they're expensive too. Take the 5C option offered a ways back ...the collets are almost 3" long from the bum end to the business end. That's going to make any attempt to run such a collet in a small lathe, suffer greatly from loss of rigidity due to the huge overhang. Of the aftermarket collets out there, the shortest are probably the ER series, but they are spring collets, which means that they need to have a substantial portion of their length supported by the stock...you can't grip a skinny washer in them. Making collet chucks and collets is dirt simple; and I'm talking about dead accurate ones too. There's no need whatsoever for them to be hardened... I've gotten excellent service for long periods out of collets custom made from brass and aircraft aluminum. The secret to success with a collet, is to plan the turning of it so you can make the whole job without re-chucking the collet at any time. The 5C pattern is a good one for making thin parts, since the body of the collet does not collapse like a spring collet does, so you can machine a step in the collet bore and grab your skinny part. The collet body taper is almost irrelevant, and even the quality of the taper matching between collet and body is not so important...it will mismatch when the collet is contracted anyway. What does matter is the concentricity of everything, and the match of collet bore to body of stock that's going to be run in it. My preferred pattern is a very short straight body, a 15 to 30 degree nose taper, and a straight front step of about 0.050". My collet nut has a matching step( but with plenty of clearance so the nut can't pull the collet sideways). The step allows the front face of the collet to be flush with the front face of the nut. I like a nut rather than a drawbar because a nut allows me to fit a bigger collet into a small spindle bore. I cut the slots in the collet to within 0.050" or so to the back end of the collet, so the fingers can flex without much strain, and I plan my collet bore to be within 0.001" of my stock diameter. I also make the straight portion of the collet a snug push fit in the body of the chuck. It's all straightforward turning and milling...the key to success is to work accurately, and that means single point threading, boring to size (rather than reaming) and a bit of planning to allow the job to be completed in one chucking. None of it is hard...you just can't attack it with a club!! Cheers Marcus ------- Date: 9 Jul 2004 03:54:23 -0000 From: sherline Subject: New file uploaded to sherline This email message is a notification to let you know that a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the sherline group. File : /collet.jpg Uploaded by : implmex Description : homemade collets You can access this file at the URL http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sherline/files/collet.jpg ------- Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2004 21:41:43 -0700 From: "Dave Hylands" Subject: RE: Fw: Newbie: ? about chucks Hi Marcus, so a few questions now that I've seen the picture. Here are the points I'd like to confirm: 1 - the outer diameter of the straight portion matches up with the inner diameter of the spindle 2 - the outer diameter of the cone would be a titch smaller than the minor diameter of the 3/4-16 threads on the spindle. 3 - the outer diameter of the step on the face would be a bit bigger than the inner diameter of the spindle. Thanks Dave Hylands Vancouver, BC, Canada http://www.DaveHylands.com/ ------- Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 08:12:02 -0700 From: "Marcus and Eva" Subject: Re: Fw: Newbie: ? about chucks Hi Dave: This collet can be made any size. If you make a screw-on collet chuck body, you could make it huge if you wanted to or needed to. If you wanted to butcher your spindle and machine the collet recess directly in the spindle nose, (like the Hardinge machines are set up) you could do that too. If you wanted to have a Morse taper adapter and a tiny collet you could do that too. (exactly like the WW pattern collets that you can buy from Sherline, but without the size restriction created by the drawbar.) The whole point is that you can get much closer to ideal spindle rigidity simply by making the collets to a pattern that takes up less length. What you need to accept, is that you have less latitude for mismatch between stock diameter and collet bore diameter when the collet is 5C style but short bodied. An examination of where the collet has to flex in order to collapse tells you immediately why this is so. Cheers Marcus ------- Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2005 09:09:04 -0000 From: "Mark Iennaco" Subject: ER- Collets? Does anyone have a drawing/plans for either an ER-16 or ER-20 collet closer for the sherline headstock? ER-16 seems like a really good size for a readily available collet that pretty much covers the stock that fits through the spindle. Thanks. ------- Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2005 10:15:22 -0000 From: "Jim Knighton" Subject: Re: ER- Collets? [sherline group] Mark, Sherline offers an ER-16 spindle, sans collets and closer, through its industrial products division. As I understand it, the chucks and other headstock accessories don't fit on this spindle. Alternatively, both Dan Pines and myself have adapted commercially available ER-20 chucks to the Sherline lathe. A photo of my ER-20 setup is in the forum archive in a folder bearing my name, in a subfolder labeled "ER20 Collet Chuck". This adaptation has proven to be exceedingly useful and an excellent match to the Sherline's capabilities. I am very enthusiastic about this accessory. Please note that this is an adaptation of a commercially available chuck, not a shop-built ER closer. I machined a suitable mounting hub from a Sherline threaded blank to mount the chuck on the Sherline's spindle. This was so successful, in my opinion, that I subsequently did the same adaptation with a stubby ER-40 chuck using a similar approach. There is a photo of the ER-40 chuck in the subfolder "4400 Woodturning Lathe". This is not to suggest that the ER-40 chuck is only useful in that application - it is the machine I was working on at the time I did the ER-40 adaptation, and that's where I mounted it to take the photo. I use the ER-40 chuck in both woodturning and metal turning applications - very successfully. There are no doubt some who think this outrageous and overkill. However, mine is an unusual lathe, as perhaps you will see if you browse the other photos. The ER-40 chuck suits the capabilities and character of this heavily modified machine. Dan Pines has also done a ER-32 adaptation as well. He and I correspond regularly and we were both chasing ER collet adaptations at the same time. His approach for mounting these chucks differs from mine, and you can contact him for the specifics. I hope this helps some... Jim Knighton ------- Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 09:43:36 -0800 From: "Marcus and Eva" Subject: Re: Re: ER collets for square stock... "Jim Knighton" wrote: > My question regarding the ER collets is mostly academic. Since I > already have square 5C collets I don't know that I would buy or make > their ER equivalent. I didn't know that the collapsing nature of ER > collets would work well with anything other than round stock. I > still don't, for what it's worth. I'm trying to figure out if the > statement on that web site is factually correct, that's all. > > As you know, there are also a variety of 5C accessories including > index blocks, milling fixtures, spin indexers, etc. I've never seen > the ER equivalents of these, either. Clearly, that doesn't mean they > don't exist - just that I haven't encountered them. Given my limited > background and lack of industry experience, I'm trying to broaden my > horizon a bit. > > Does the fact that I haven't encountered square and hex ER collets > before now suggest that the collet design isn't conducive to holding > stock in these shapes? Alternatively, since ER collets are a > relatively recent invention, dating from the 1970s and thus placing > them in the then emerging NC and CNC world, does it mean > that "industry" doesn't need or use them? The same applies to the > other commonly used 5C accessories. Regards, Jim Hi Jim: The ER series is designed and intended for tool holding not work holding. Lots of people use them for these other purposes, but that ain't what they're supposed to be for. They do work well though, but you're largely on your own for accessories that are common as dirt for 5C. Cheers Marcus ------- Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 09:39:31 -0800 From: "Marcus and Eva" Subject: Re: Re: ER collets for square stock... "dan pines" wrote: > i know what a broach is. > i know the square and hex types retail at msc-direct for 100$ +++ > i know that with enough care and attention they can be home made (not > on a lathe though)and you would need more than one for a range of > collets i doubt that it would be reasonable to try to make precision ER > collets at home, especially if they are not available (there must be > a reason) commercially. Hi Dan: There is another way, and it involves nothing more than a mill or even a milling attachment for the lathe. When I have short runs to do and I'm too cheap to buy the proper collet, or it's an odd size that I can't get, I'll make up a split bushing with the right shape. The secret to success is the fact that it's split...that allows the halves to be milled and then simply put together and held together with an O ring. The whole works then goes into an ordinary round collet. Making the split sleeve takes a bit of organized planning... here's what you do: Start with a piece of rectangular stock that's 4 times as long as you want the collet to be when it's finished, and thicker than half the diameter, and wider than the whole diameter of your finished sleeve. Plan for a bit of extra to make a shoulder on the sleeve so it will stay in the right spot when you slide it into the collet. Mount it in the mill vise and mill it nice and parallel on the two wide faces. If you have a 5400 mill, you need to align the long axis of the stock with the Y axis of the mill...if you have a 2000 mill, it doesn't matter. Try for 0.001" parallelism or better. This is because you'll need to tip the head to make the profile, and you can only tip the head one way on the 5400. After you face the second side DON"T REMOVE IT FROM THE MILL!!! Now you can put your profile in. For a square profile, tip the head 45 degrees and then scratch a line roughly down the middle of the block with a cheap vernier running one leg along the edge of the block. No need for killer precision here, but you do NOT want to take the block out of the vise or the vise off the table to scribe an accurate line. Now calculate the exact depth you need to drop a cutter straight down to get your profile the correct cross section width. If you're as lazy as I am, you'll just sketch up the profile in CAD and interrogate the drawing rather than calculating it with Trigonometry. Your objective is to make a Vee shaped ditch that's exactly the right depth so your square stock will drop in exactly half way. If your square stock is nice and accurate with dead sharp corners, you can drop a sample of your stock into the groove and mike if you're at the right depth...if not, you'll have to do it by theory, and reading the handwheel to tell you when you're there. You can also drop in a round bar and mike that using trig again or the CAD cheat to tell you what the micrometer reading should be. In any event, you want the stock to drop in exactly half way and no more. Once you're satisfied that your slot is as good as it's ever going to be, whip it out of the vise and cut it in half so you have two identical pieces each with your profile running down the center. Before you get carried away with the next step, turn up a round pin that will just go in the profile exactly half way and that's a bit longer than the two pieces of your collet-to-be. The best way to find out what the diameter should be, is to turn it on the lathe and try closing the halves of the collet blank over it, if it's some oddball size. If it's supposed to be a nominal size, you should have gotten it dead nuts with the milling of the vee groove and miking it over the nominal size rod dropped in the groove. Drop the assembly of pin, and two collet halves into the vise so the vise sandwiches them together. You want the pin sticking out both ends. Clock the top of the pin in until it's dead nuts parallel with the X axis movement of the vise, and then squeeze the vise. Mill a whisker off the tops of the blocks. Flip it in the vise and whisker off the other side. You care more about parallelism than getting the rod exactly centered. Now you can pop the pieces into your 4 jaw chuck so the slots are facing each other with the pin in between. The sides where the jaws touch the split line should be padded with a hard pad...I use 3/16" square lathe tool blanks cut into stubby pieces. You can clock in the pin as accurately as you have the patience for. Stick the pin out a fair ways so you can clock it in more than one place. Lots of fiddling and piddling will get you there. Another good way to get nice longitudinal alignment, is to pop a center into the end of the pin. Drill and tap a screw through the whole works right at one end of the blocks, and counterbore the screwhead nice and deep into the block so you don't clobber it when you turn the outside down. Then grab the other end only about a quarter inch into the jaws of the 4 jaw, and run a tailstock center against the center hole in the pin. Clock in the pin right at the chuck, and rely on the center to hold it aligned at the other end. Now turn the whole works round, to a diameter 0.050" bigger then the collet you're planning to slip this bushing into. Turn most of it down to nominal diameter, leaving a step of 0.025 X 0.050 or so. Turn in a groove anywhere that's deep enough to accept an o ring, and then cut the square stump off with a hacksaw. Face off the end in a collet and you're almost there. Take the sleeve apart and sand down the faces a bit (or pop them in the mill and whack off a couple of thou), so the collet will close properly on undersize stock. You're done...works a treat as the Brits like to say, and it's certainly easier to do than to write about. Put it together with an o ring drop it in the collet drop in your stock and start turning. Hope this helps Apologies for the long windedness of it all. Cheers Marcus ------- Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2005 18:21:42 -0000 From: "jehintz" Subject: Removing Spindle Collets [atlas craftsman group, but suggestions apply to other lathes and mills] I have a Craftsman 6" and was wondering if anyone has devised a way of removing collets from the headstock spindle with out pounding/tapping on the drawbar. The only way I can see without using a puller that would have to pull against the small spindle gear is to weld an extension onto a C-clamp and then cut out a slot to go around the spindle. This extension would then push against the inside of the headstock casting with the screw portion pushing against the drawbar. Any suggestions would be appreciated. Jon ------- Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2005 21:13:46 -0000 From: "azbruno" Subject: Re: Removing Spindle Collets The first attachment I made for my 6" Craftsman was an aluminum spindle nut. When I have an MT2 arbor in the headstock and the part sticking out of the headstock is greater diameter than the spindle nut ID, then unscrewing the nut pushes out the arbor. I would think it should work for MT2 collets. Bruno ------- Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2005 00:10:03 EST From: anthrhodesx~xxaol.com Subject: Re: Removing Spindle Collets << I would think it should work for MT2 collets. >> It won't because the MT-2 collets are approximately flush with the end of the spindle. However, the drawbar could be redesigned so that a nut run onto the left end of the spindle over a large shoulder on the drawbar would provide a place for the drawbar to butt against and thereby push the collet out when the drawbar was unscrewed from the collet. Anthony Berkeley, Calif. ------- Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2005 17:20:10 -0500 From: "mertbaker" Subject: Re: Removing Spindle Collets The Morse taper is too gradual to be self releasing, hence the need for the tap. Use an old hammer handle. I have a lead hammer for the Clausing mill, which has a #2 taper also. Mert ------- NOTE TO FILE: This following ER collet thread was also talking specifically about the Taig mill and those messages are in the Taig Mill Tips file. Some messages are generically applicable to many lathes or mills and were placed here. Please also read the other file starting 20 June 2005 for a more complete picture as to some adapters and alternative approaches. ------- Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 09:14:44 +0100 From: Steve Blackmore Subject: Re: Re: ER 16 collet inquiry [taigtools] On Sun, 19 Jun 2005 02:53:31 -0000, you wrote: >There have been a number of threads recently regarding ER Collets >(noticed Taig now offers a ER Spindle as an option by the way - don't >know the details) and End Mill holders in general and set screw type >Endmill Holders in particular and I was poking around and found the >following thread of messages that others might find of interest: >http://www.desktopcnc.com/november03swarf.htm >The messages posted at the link above where originally posted to >alt.machines.cnc Just to add further to a couple of points raised in the above articles. Tools DONT walk out of ER collets - because it's designed so (unlike a lot of other collets) that it compresses along it's whole length. WW collets are appalling - having said that, they were to designed to hold work in a jeweller's lathe, not tools ;) Collets with parallel sections and/or slots only in the mouth end will not grip tools fully and the tool will pull out. That's precisely the reason Clarkson type collets have threads that hold the tool too. The nuts don't crack if they are a reasonable make and you only use the recommended spanner to tighten them. An ER16 spanner is deliberately short - it doesn't need you to swing on it or use extension bars to tighten correctly. Run out is negligible in the collets/holder I use - It came from J&L industrial and is less than what I can measure here. My best lever dial indicator does 0.01mm per division (.0003936996 inch) and it moves well less than a quarter of a division - Certainly better than the head bearings . Steve Blackmore ------- Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 02:30:20 -0000 From: "yotie888" Subject: Re: ER 16 collet inquiry One thing I would like to add after doing some research this last week. If you decide to go with a 3/4" collet chuck shank, you can go up to an ER-20 or ER-25 collet chuck. With an ER-20 you can get up to 1/2" collets. This is the route I have decided to go since I have a few tools with a 1/2" shank. I found some 40mm O.D. x 3/4" I.D. bearings which I should have in a couple of days. I will post on how it all went together once I get it done. On the other hand, if you decide to just use the ER-16 collet chuck, this is available with a 5/8" shank. And you can easily get 40mm O.D. x 5/8" I.D. bearings from Grainger. They have them in stock. The 3/4" bore bearings were a bit more difficult to get. All the major supplies I talked to like NTN, and Peer said they have discontinued them. I found them through a company that carried BCA bearings (who are now NTN). They only had 3 in stock and I bought them. They told me they should get more in, but who knows. Hope this helps some. ------- Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 21:28:26 -0500 From: Jon Elson Subject: Re: Re: Need Help understanding Collet Sizing [atlas_craftsman] sauer38h wrote: >I've had cutters gradually drift out of R8 collets when cutting some >difficult materials, like pure copper, but in my experience the more >gradual tapers, like Morse or B&S, grip like grim death. The idea that >a set screw could hold more tightly seems bizarre. The set screw absolutely prevents spinning of cutters that have the Weldon flat cut into the shank. These setscrews are quite large, usually just a little smaller than the shank diameter. The proper method of locking the cutter in is to twist it in the direction of spindle torque would apply to the cutter, and to pull the cutter all the way out against the set screw when you lock it down. This way, the forces on the cutter will just bury those edges of the Weldon flat harder against the screw. After a while, you get so used to inserting the cutter this way that you aren't even aware you are doing it anymore. And, yes, the shallow angles of the Morse and B&S tapers do lock the tool pretty tightly. Now, of course, the hot technology is thermal shrink-fit holders. You use a small induction heating unit to quickly heat up the holder and release the tool. When it cools, the holder is an extremely tight interference fit that won't release for anything. (There are also hydraulic versions of the same concept, but they are harder to describe.) Jon ------- Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 11:29:47 -0500 From: Jon Elson Subject: Re: Re: Need Help understanding Collet Sizing sauer38h wrote: >Sounds like endmill holders should work almost as well as decent collets. Endmill holders can be quite a bit more rigid than collets, and can allow the endmill to be extended from the spindle nose. The weldon flat and setscrew absolutely guarantee that the endmill cannot spin, and that it can only be "sucked out" of the holder by the amount of slop in the fit between the slot and screw. That slop is usually very small, and if you pull on the end mill while tightening the setscrew, it will be zero. Except on extension holders, the end mill is guaranteed to break off before the setscrew gives way. >I have no experience with endmill holders. I never had occasion to >want to use one. I've used collets exclusively to hold tools in >vertical mills since the 1970s, and they've performed well - except >for the episode with the copper. That was an R8 collet in a Rockwell >vertical. I fixed it by tightening the drawbar a bit more. Brute >force? To be sure. But after that the collet performed sterling service. Well, that's the problem with the R-8, and a number of more steeply tapered spindles of the "self-releasing" sort, is that the radial clamping force produced by reasonable drawbar loads are less than the "self-holding" tapers, like Morse and B&S. And, I NEVER want to go back to the days of beating the &^% out of the drawbar to get a B&S collet to release! Another feature of the endmill holder is that you get the tool located at a repeatable position every time you put the holder in the spindle. (That doesn't apply to changing the endmill itself, but treating the cutter+holder as a unit.) This is more important with CNC, but if you use a DRO you could store offsets for several tools in the DRO and not have to re-zero for each tool change. I rarely use collets anymore in my mill. Now, for centering work in the lathe, a collet is a great thing. Someday, I will treat myself to a collet chuck. Jon ------- Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 12:20:00 -0500 From: "Joe Smith" Subject: RE: Re: Need Help understanding Collet Sizing Conversely collets allow a little more distance between mill table and the cutter. I have both for that reason. On my drill mill I tend to use collets. On my 9x42 I usually use an end mill holder. Both are R8. I recently purchased an ER40 collet set with R8. I may use it on the 9x42 since I can change cutters without having to climb on a step to work on the drawbar. ------- Is there a collet holder for my new lathe, a 101.27440 [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: "Peter Maston" pmastonx~xxcomcast.net Date: Thu Nov 2, 2006 7:27 am (PST) I think the first thing I like to buy is a collet holder. Any help is appreciated. Peter ------- Re: Is there a collet holder for my new lathe, a 101.27440 Posted by: "Jay Greer" redwitch1x~xxearthlink.net Date: Thu Nov 2, 2006 10:32 am (PST) Hi Peter: The original collet set up for the 6" Atlas is rather limited. So I set up a 5C collet chuck for the lathe. It is rather heavy and so I plan to set up a steady rest for it. Here is a site that shows the set up for the chuck. http://www.jamesriser.com/Machinery/5cColletChuck/5cCollet_Chuck.html Cheers, Jay Greer ------- Is there a collet holder for my new lathe, a 101.27440 Posted by: "Steve" skadsmx~xxpeoplepc.com Date: Fri Nov 3, 2006 5:49 am (PST) You have the same lathe as mine. It should have come with an adapter to fit 3AT collets in the spindle (the spindle is 3MT). If you have no adapter, no collets and no drawbar, a quick alternative to the 5C collet closer is to get a MT3 to 3C adapter. You can get one at: http://www.littlemachineshop.com/ See: http://www.littlemachineshop.com/products/product_view.php?ProductID=2240 3C collets are slightly easier to find than 3AT. The advantages over the 5c adaptor are cost and not having to machine anything (you will need to make or buy a drawbar as well). Advantage of the 5C unit, more collet availability and collet sizes up to a bit over 1" (unless you need something to go though the spindle, then you are limited to the spindle size). Steve ------- Is there a collet holder for my new lathe, a 101.27440 Posted by: "jdmichael2001" jdmichaelx~xxaol.com Date: Fri Nov 3, 2006 7:54 am (PST) Peter: You can make an adapter for ER-32 collets which take up to 3/4" stock through the spindle. (Or ER-40 if you want larger capability.) It is pretty straightforward and you can either make a closing nut yourself with english threads, or use the commercially available replacement nuts using a metric thread. I sell kits or complete adapters if you want to go that route at www.tallgrasstools.com. Jan M. ------- Model Numbers [atlas_craftsman follow up to collet question above] Posted by: "John Martin" jmartin957x~xxaol.com Date: Thu Nov 2, 2006 8:06 am (PST) I don't know about the rest of you, but I do know that I don't have a list of the lathe model numbers memorized. And I have no desire to do so. Someone just asked about a collet closer for a 101.XXXXX. He won't get an answer from me. On the other hand, if he'd added that it was an Atlas 6" with 1 x 10 MT2 spindle, I might have answered. I'm not picking on him - just an example. I don't need to know the bed length, whether it's overhead drive, QC gearbox or what the horsepower of the motor is. But I would think that just a little bit of relevant information would get a lot more answers. John Martin ------- Re: Model Numbers Posted by: "Peter Maston" pmastonx~xxcomcast.net Date: Thu Nov 2, 2006 9:15 am (PST) Sorry for that subliminal message about the collet attachment, but I will put more info down, next time I'm asking for a part for a particular lathe. Thanks for the tip. Peter ------- Re: Model Numbers Posted by: "jmartin957x~xxaol.com" Date: Thu Nov 2, 2006 1:12 pm (PST) Wasn't aimed at all at you, Peter. There have been a ton of posters here who assume that we will know what their model numbers translate to. As to the collet attachment, it really depends on what you want it to do. The handiest collet adapters are those that fit inside the spindle, and use a hollow drawtube. But those limit your size the most. In a 6" MT2 spindle you're looking at WW collets, which go up to about 1/4". In a 10" or 12" MT3 spindle you're looking at maybe 3C collets, which go up to 1/2". You can use collets that directly fit the Morse tapers and will take larger diameters, but these generally work with drawbars that do not allow the work to pass through. You can get collet adapters which place the collets outside the spindle and allow you to use larger collets. You can have quite a bit of overhang with these. If they close using a front nut you'll have the maximum pass through size. John Martin ------- Re: Model Numbers Posted by: "Jon Elson" elsonx~xxpico-systems.com Date: Thu Nov 2, 2006 6:55 pm (PST) Atlas models are REALLY simple. There was the 6", 10" D and F, and early and late 12". 10" and 12" could come with change gears or quick-change. There were several bed lengths. But, a quick description pretty much tells it all. The Craftsman model #'s really give no clue except to those really familiar with them. I know a few of the model numbers that lasted for a long time. Craftsman assigned a new model number if Atlas changed one washer in the machine to a different part #. Actually, they assigned at least 4 new model numbers, for short and long bed and change-gear and QC. So, there are literally hundreds of model numbers that describe almost exactly the same lathe. Jon ------- [atlas_craftsman -- a message about Atlas collets in another discussion] Re: Late Model atlas/chraftsman 12X36 Cabinett model question Posted by: "jerdal" jerdalx~xxbrick.net Date: Sat Feb 10, 2007 9:59 pm ((PST)) > Atlas and South Bend used 3c collets for their closers,I > happened to find a SB closer at a garage sale and shortened the tube > and it works just fine. Atlas (and Logan) used 3AT as factory stock type....., although you could get others for Logan. SB used the 3C. But any MT3 spindle will fit a 3C OR a 3AT closer. You can make or get a 3C instead of the 3AT. Same capacity, generally more plentiful, and not so many rabid Atlas folks who "know" that 3AT is the only one that works, who'll outbid you. They all "know" 3C is "wrong", and won't fight for it. JT ------- Re: Bower machine 3AT collet chuck/adapter [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: "Brett Jones" brettx~xx5foot2.com Date: Sun Feb 11, 2007 12:16 am ((PST)) Archie wrote: > I was wondering if anyone has tried the 3AT collet chuck that bower > machine sells, if so what is your impression. It says that it doesn't > need a drawbar but It doesn't say how it works etc..... > I have a 12 X 36 atlas commercial model lathe If you're going to look into collet chucks, go with a 5C collet chuck, not the 3AT. You'll have a larger size range and a much more common collet size. The commonality means lower prices for new collets and lots of good used tooling available. The biggest advantage to the collet chuck instead of the collet and drawbar system is that you're able to use the full ID of the spindle. If you run 3AT or 3C collets within the spindle you're limited to 1/2" material. Another cool collet option is the ER collet. The ER collets allow you to clamp down on a larger size range within the rated size than does the 5C style collet. I think it's .030 over and under the collets' rated size. Tallgrass tools has an adapter kit, or completed part for use with ER32 collets. http://tallgrasstools.com/ER-32ColletKit.html I'm leaning in this direction pretty strongly but with the ER40 size. I plan on using the collets on my X3 mill and on a Logan lathe I own. I rather like the idea of having one set of good collets to use on all the machines in the shop. ------- Re: Collet diference [taigtools] Posted by: "Lester Caine" lscesx~xxbtconnect.com Date: Sun Mar 4, 2007 3:51 am ((PST)) Nicholas Carter and Felice Luftschein wrote: >The ER16 collets Taig sells are imports. You can use any ER16 collet, >from any supplier, they are all made (presumably) to the same standards. Almost ;) While the outside dimensions are fixed, there are a few variations in the way the slots are machined, and how large the clearance is in the middle. One of the advantages of the ER16 collet over the old smaller collet is the much longer length of contact area, but the length of contact area on the imports can be a bit variable, with some only using half the collet length. This is so that they do not hve to flex too much. Below about 3mm you need a 0.5mm step size, as the 3mm may not hold a 2.1mm drill, and you should not be able to push that into the 2mm collet, so a 2.5 and 1.5mm sizes may be needed. There are some sets that do not include these, and opt to make the collet more flexible, resulting in the shorter clamping area. Lester Caine - G8HFL L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://home.lsces.co.uk Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://home.lsces.co.uk/ModelEngineersDigitalWorkshop/ ------- Re: Precision collet closer for 12" Atlas lathe [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: "James Sterner" jimmy163333x~xxyahoo.com Date: Wed Aug 15, 2007 9:08 pm ((PDT)) scottbitner67 wrote: >> Hi, I am new to this group and I have a 12" atlas/craftsman lathe, I recently purchased a precision collet closer off e-bay, for this lathe, the problem is it doesn't fit properly, some modifications need to be done also I can't figure out how the collets lock into place. Is there anybody out there that has one, that can help me out?? I downloaded a couple pictures to the photo section. Thanks Scott << The hand lever goes towards the head stock. You put a collet in the spindle. Then with a little pressure towards the head stock turn the knurled nut on the outermost left hand side of the unit to screw it onto the collet, it might have a finger operated lock that would have to be opened if the whole spindle wants to turn with the knurled nut. (Going in or out with the knurled nut is what controls the final clamping pressure of the collet.) You put your stock or part in the collet and, to lock it in place, you move the hand lever away from the head stock till it kind of snaps out and locks in that position. To release your part, return the hand lever towards the head stock. This type of collet closer is best suited to do many same size part changes or adjustments quickly. ------- Re: Precision collet closer for 12" Atlas lathe Posted by: "Steve" skadsmx~xxpeoplepc.com Date: Thu Aug 16, 2007 7:29 am ((PDT)) If you have an older lathe, I do not believe that the Atlas lever collet closer fits it (at least not without some creative modifications). I have an earlier one and the lathe has no attachment points for the collet closer. I would have to modify the left side covers for it to fit. The later lathe (see http://www.lathes.co.uk/atlas/page5.html ) has the attachment points, and is the one shown in the instruction manual for the collet closer. Steve ------- Re: Precision collet closer for 12" Atlas lathe Posted by: "jmartin957x~xxaol.com" Date: Thu Aug 16, 2007 12:04 pm ((PDT)) Without knowing exactly what kind of closer and collets he has, it's hard to say precisely what to do. For instance, I have TG100 holders and collets for my milling machine. The TG collets require that the retaining ring be snapped on to the collets before they are installed in the holder. Try to screw the nut and ring down over a collet already in the taper and you risk damaging the collet. And, the ring may not seat. More specifics necessary. John Martin Cumberland, Maine ------- NOTE TO FILE: I have noticed that commercial collets suitable for use on our Atlas or similar lathes have come down in price over the last few years. Just do an internet search on MT 2 collets or MT 3 collets as applicable to your Atlas lathe. MT = Morse Taper, the female taper in our headstocks. The Atlas 618 6 inch lathes, or equivalent Atlas-made Sears Craftsman lathes, need collets based on MT 2. The larger Atlas-made lathes need MT 3. (MT 2 collets can also be used in the larger lathes by means of a simple inexpensive MT 3 to MT 2 adapter. The adapter exterior is male MT 3 and its interior is female MT 2.) ------- Re: Collet types [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: "Steve" skadsmx~xxpeoplepc.com Date: Wed Jan 23, 2008 4:33 am ((PST)) indianfourriderx~xxyahoo.com on Tue Jan 22, 2008wrote: >Can someone out there enlighten me on the differences between 3C, 3AT >and ER collets? What are the advantages/disadvantages of each? I have a >late model 12x36 with the 1.5x8 3MT spindle. Thanks! 3AT - the ones that came with Atlas. Don't fit the spindle directly, need an adapter. If you have an adapter, good, if you don't, not sure where you can get one besides ebay. Capacity up to 1/2" and you can feed stock through them. Hard to find. Not sure if anyone is making them, but you can find used and occasionally NOS (I got some 32nd sizes to fill out my set from www.plazamachinery.com). 3C - Came with other lathes, like South Bend. Also don't fit the spindle directly, need an adapter. You can get a new adapter from several sources, including www.littlemachineshop.com. Capacity up to 1/2" (although I have seen some that were either a 32nd or a 64th larger). You can feed stock through them. More plentiful than 3AT. Can buy new ones as well as used. If you have no collets or adapter, this may be an easier route to take. ER. Come in several sizes, like ER20, ER40. You install them with a morse taper arbor. Depending on the series you get, capacity can be much larger than 3AT/3C. More readily available. Also each collet can hold a wider range, as they open/close more than a standard collet. Disadvantage: can't pass stock through them. If you are working on small parts, but not long ones, these can have an advantage. One you did not mention is morse taper. You can get 3MT collets which will fit directly in your spindle. These are not self releasing, so you may have to tap them out. You will need to make a drawbar, but it's a standard thread. Also, can't feed stock through. Advantage: MT3 can go up to 3/4". Another one is 5C. "Hold it", you say, "5C can't fit in my spindle". You can get a collet chuck that fits on your spindle like a jaw chuck and holds 5C collets. Through hole capacity up to the size of the spindle hole, collets up to 1-1/8". Disadvantage: overhang. May not be as rigid as a collet directly in the spindle. If you need to feed 3/4" stock though the spindle, this may be your only choice. What do I have? Almost complete set of 3AT plus MT3, so I can do up to 1/2" with through capability and up to 3/4" without. Steve -------- Re: Collet types Posted by: "danaz.chandler" djnx~xxieee.org Date: Wed Jan 23, 2008 7:39 am ((PST)) One thing to note about ER collets... TallGrass tools offers an ER-30 adapter that threads onto the Atlas spindle. This allows long stock to pass thru the spindle and collet. I had them make me the same thing, but ER-40 sized also. Dan in Chandler, AZ ------- Re: Collet types Posted by: "jake09305" jake09305x~xxbellsouth.net Date: Wed Jan 23, 2008 7:45 am ((PST)) While on the subject of collets...mostly the discussion has centered on the "draw in" type of collet. These are drawn into a "nose" or adapter designed especially for that collet by a threaded draw bar or hollow tube. As the collet moves into the spindle under the pull of the draw bar, it pulls the stock with it. This can add mysterious variations in the dimensions of finished work if not taken into to effect and planned for. On the topic of adapters for tapered spindles...you can buy a commercially made center for your spindle that is not hardened; put this in the spindle and with a boring bar carefully turn a hole through to match the shape of your collets. Carefully mark the "adapter" you have made so it can be re-inserted in the spindle in exactly the same place every time. All this requires some planning, so before you start make sure all this will fit your machine, tapers, and spindle. If you are going to occasionally remove this adapter, plan how, now! Jake ------- Re: Collet types Posted by: "Russ Kepler" russx~xxkepler-eng.com Date: Wed Jan 23, 2008 8:13 am ((PST)) Consider also a 5C chuck on the spindle nose. There are several to chose from, the one I have is a Bison brand out of Poland and is quite nice. The only issue I have with them is that you have to turn the scroll quite a bit to close it, so changing collets a lot can take a lot of turning. One potential problem that I haven't see if the increase in stickout from the spindle, this could make it more prone to chatter but it's not something I've seen. The advantages are that 5C collets are common and (relatively) cheap. You can get round, hex, square, rectangular, even blank ones for machining. Even if the Atlas spindle is limited in diameter, there's at least some depth for work through the chuck. ------- Re: Collet types Posted by: "PeterH5322" peterh5322x~xxrattlebrain.com Date: Wed Jan 23, 2008 10:30 am ((PST)) 3AT - perhaps not Atlas, but generally of the "3" size, where such sizes are indicative of the capacity in quarters of an inch (see Cataract numbering system, below). 3C - Cataract (Hardinge Brothers) - 3/4" capacity - small toolroom and bench lathe applications (3C = three quarters) 4C - Cataract (Hardinge Brothers) - 1" capacity - vertical mill applications (4C = four quarters) 5C - Cataract (Hardinge Brothers) - 1-1/4" capacity (practicalities limit this to about 1-1/16" or 1-1/8") - Horizontal mill applications, and many lathe spindle applications (5C = five quarters) 22C - an absolutely HUGE version of Cataract collet ER - European pattern, intended for milling applications, but also useful for some lathe spindle applications particularly when used with a shop-made chuck and a factory-made nut and nut wrench - double tapered, front and rear - ejection ring whereby the collet nut withdraws and then ejects the collet 2J - J means Sjogren (pronounced SHOW-grin), the name of the designer of the first practical and widely used collet chuck in about 1929, the Sjogren "Speed-Chuck", later, and for many decades, called the Hardinge-Sjogren "Speed-Chuck", and now called the ATS-Sjogren "Speed-Chuck" - 2J has a capacity of 1-3/8" - 2J is the most popular collet on certain toolroom lathes where the spindle doesn't have a 5C taper, but instead has a Jarno taper 3J - a larger version of Sjogren collet 22J - an absolutely HUGE version of Sjogren collet Of all the collet types, the most versatile, and the best supported is the 5C, but there are many cases where 1-1/16" is too limiting and the 1-3/8" capacity of the 2J is the deciding factor. 2J is almost as well supported as the 5C, with emergency, hex and square collets being made, and also the same in metric sizes. 2J "Speed-Chucks" are made in a small handwheel version, the 2A, and which is rated for a maximum of 4,000 rpm ------- Re: Collet types Posted by: "William Abernathy" williamx~xxinch.com Date: Wed Jan 23, 2008 10:41 am ((PST)) You don't need a Morse fitting to mount ER collets. You CAN build your own collet holder (or buy a kit from Tallgrass tools) that allows you to pass work through the spindle. I made my own ER-32 holder/nut combo. You can too. For ER-series disadvantages, I would only list the inability to find square- or hex-profile work. Also, you cannot make machinable "emergency" fixtures; however, since each collet has a much wider grip range than a 5-C, such emergencies tend to be rarer (i.e., if you don't have an n/32nd collet, it's not a big deal-- go to the next size up and torque down the ER collet a little harder.) It's a great system, and you can use them on your mill, too! William A ------- Re: Collet types Posted by: "n8as1x~xxaol.com" Date: Wed Jan 23, 2008 6:54 pm ((PST)) > 3AT - perhaps not Atlas, but generally of the "3" size, where such > sizes are indicative of the capacity in quarters of an inch (see > Cataract numbering system, below). maybe so ...but i have yet to see or hear of a larger collet than 1/2 inch in 3 AT ..i bored one of mine out to 5/8 , but maybe 3/4 wud near take out the body of the collet ?????....have to go down into shop & check that ......i have a few w/large discs on the end for shallow boring for needed much larger sizes (2 -3 in , forget now the term for them , ) i have a set of hardinge 1 J collets ...very similar to 5 C , IIRC , up to 1 1/16".....perhaps they were used in leblond lathes????...do you know what their initial usage was ? tnx docn8as ------- Re: Collet types Posted by: "PeterH5322" peterh5322x~xxrattlebrain.com Date: Wed Jan 23, 2008 7:17 pm ((PST)) The J suffix is due to Sjogren. Made by Hardinge up to a few years ago. The 2J "Speed Chucks" are usually found on machines with a D1-3" CamLock spindle, although the "Speed-Chucks" for 2J were made in flat back, screw, L and A. A 2J can cover 1-3/8". ------- Collet Chuck question [MyMyford] Posted by: "andyevans_2000" andyevans_2000x~xxyahoo.ie Date: Sat Sep 20, 2008 3:39 pm ((PDT)) I have a question about collet chucks - trying to use one for the first time today. I have some Myford collets and a closer that screws onto the mandrel. I tried a 3/8" collet with a 3/8" bar but I could only screw the closer on part-way and the grove on the collet did not engage with the ring on the closer. I then had a problem removing the bar and collet from the spindle. My question is should I be using a largr collet to hold the 3/8" bar? Thanks Andy ------- Re: Collet Chuck question Posted by: "Jim Guthrie" jimx~xxsprok01.plus.com Date: Sun Sep 21, 2008 12:23 am ((PDT)) Andy, Did you fit the collet to the nut first? You might have also got a closer tube which makes life easier by compressing a collet to allow the nut to be put over the collet end and fit in the groove. The pukka Myford item comes complete with an ejector to release the collet from the tube, but a piece of suitable ID tube would suffice. However, with the larger capacity collets, you hardly need the tube closer since the collet jaws are flexible enough to squeeze in with your fingers, and the 3/8" capacity collet would be in that category. The closer becomes essential for the small capacity collets - e.g. 1/8", 3/32" - where the jaws are very stiff to compress. Once you've got the nut on the collet, you fit it to the mandrel nose, then feed in your material. Jim. ------- Re: Collet Chuck question Posted by: "tr0up" a.troupx~xxemail.com Date: Sun Sep 21, 2008 12:41 am ((PDT)) My hunch is that you're putting the bar through the collet before trying to fit the nose ring. You need to assemble the nose ring to the collet before trying to insert the bar. You most certainly do not use a bigger collet - collets like this are strictly for use only with workpieces which are machined or bright drawn or ground to within a few thou of the nominal diameter. No undersize or black (hot rolled) bar, castings, or dinged bar should be put anywhere near the insides of a collet. ------- Re: Collet Chuck question Posted by: "andyevans_2000" andyevans_2000x~xxyahoo.ie Date: Sun Sep 21, 2008 2:59 pm ((PDT)) Thanks. Yes, I was trying to put the collet and bar in the spindle and then screw the nose on. Should the nose screw all the way onto the spindle? I don't have a closer, but will look into obtaining one for the smaller collets. Andy ------- Re: Collet Chuck question Posted by: "tr0up" a.troupx~xxemail.com tr0up Date: Sun Sep 21, 2008 11:06 pm ((PDT)) > Should the nose screw all the way onto the spindle? The collet doesn't even have to be in the spindle before you introduce the bar, as long as the "nose" nut is first assembled to the collet. Screwing the nose nut onto the spindle nose thread can be delayed, and certainly tightening it should be delayed, until the bar is in place and projecting the correct amount. Just to clear up a previous post: I said: > > collets like this are > > strictly for use only with workpieces > > which are machined or bright > > drawn or ground to within a > > few thou of the nominal diameter. By "collets like this" I meant traditional collets, like the original MT2 Myford collets you have, or the fancier ones they made for the lever-operated closer. In recent decades, the wider grip range "Rubberflex" and "Multisize" style evolved into an affordable, practical and durable implementation with "ER" collets, invented by Rego-Fix in 1973, which are excellent in almost every way. (ER, AFAIK, = "Extended Range") Any of these collets have a much larger 'grip range' than traditional collets. This grip range (variation on diameter) is 1 mm in the case of ER collets, although they are at their most grippy and accurate when used near their largest nominal size. (Only a really fussy person would notice.) ------- Re: Collet Chuck question Posted by: "tr0up" a.troupx~xxemail.com tr0up Date: Sun Sep 21, 2008 11:13 pm ((PDT)) I may not have fully understood your question: If you were asking about pretightening the nose cap/nut, I think I've answered that; if you were asking how tight to snug it once the bar is in place, the answer is: tight enough not to slip under the heaviest cut you need to take, or the heaviest drilling thrust which will be required. If it slips, tighten it some more. Do NOT tighten a collet like this to any significant degree, and certainly not with any force, without a suitable cylindrical workpiece inside it. I would suggest at least 2/3 of the length of the gripping portion of the collet as a safe minimum penetration, although I don't know for sure what traditional collets can withstand. This is certainly the absolute minimum for the shorter ER collets. ------- Collet selection [MyMyford] Posted by: "Tavewa365" yahoox~xxtavewa.freeserve.co.uk Date: Thu Nov 13, 2008 12:09 pm ((PST)) Hello, this is my first post to My Myford, I have been lurking for a couple of days. I am the proud owner of a 1958 Super 7, with a cone clutch and drip feed oiler. I am looking to get a set of collets for more accurate work holding. I am torn between an ER32 set, for their capacity, and a Myford set, for their Myfordness. The other thing to add is that I am hoping to use the same set on my Fobco Universal, which is a drilling machine set up for light milling duties. It has the same 1 1/8 12TPI Myford spindle thread to allow collets to be used to hold milling cutters. The Fobco will not allow a drawbar to pass, so the ER32 with Myford adaptor, or a Myford set should work. Do the group members have any opinions on ER vs. Myford? The Myford ones look a bit fiddly, not to mention expensive. If I was to go the ER route, would the members recommend a set from RDG, Chronos or somewhere else? Does anyone have any opinions on the accuracy of the various offerings. ------- Re: Collet selection Posted by: "jhnsltr" jhnsltrx~xxyahoo.co.uk Date: Thu Nov 13, 2008 1:32 pm ((PST)) Hello, I went through this process a short while ago. I've ended up with both Myford collets (I've had these a while, long before the ER types were as commonly available as they are now) and ER25. The Myford collets are good with minimal overhang but are expensive and limited to one particular size only for each collet and a maximum of 1/2". They fit into the collet nose piece in a similar way to the ER collets and their closing nut. The ER collets have a range of 1mm or so for each collet and so are much more versatile in this respect. I bought a flange mount chuck from Chester Uk and fitted it to a back plate from Chronos based solely on cost. So I've ended up with a bit more overhang than buying a direct screw mount like the chucks from RDG but at half the cost. I went for the ER25 range because of the smaller diameter end of the range. Most suppliers list 15 collets in the range but if you look at ArcEuro Trade's website they list 18 collets that go down to a smaller diameter. However the ER 32 does have a bigger maximum size. Both the ER25 and ER32 largest diameters exceed the through capacity of the Myford Headstock. Having used both types I much prefer the flexibility of the ER collets and because of the type and size of the work I do am satisfied with the ER25 range. The lack of stiffness because of the increased overhang has not show to be aproblem either. An additinal benefit is I have an adapter with a 2MT shank that enables me to use them in either my drilling machine or milling machine. Albeit with caution because as good as they are, deadlock collets they aint! If I were starting again I'd definitely go down the ER route and with the ER 25 sizes and I'd buy the collets (a full set of 18 at one go) from Arc Euro and the flange chuck from Chester and either make or buy a back plate at best cost. I did consider making a screw on dedicated ER25 chuck but felt by the time I'd bought a closing nut and a spanner and done the work I was no better off. Hope that this has helped. Best of luck with the deliberations. ------- Re: Collet selection Posted by: "gordon_frnch" gordon-frenchx~xxnetzero.net Date: Fri Nov 14, 2008 7:41 am ((PST)) I guess that I would be the one to ask because I have several different collet sets that are useful on Myford lathes. First choise would be to get and fit a 5C collet chuck. The act of fitting it to the spindle, when properly done, assures accuracy of the workholding. Until recently the tool merchants have had both Chucks and cheap sets of 5C collets that are for the most part accurately made and are quite serviceable. I have even purchased square and hex collets in 5/16 and 1/4 inch sizes for their general usefullness. The 5C is my favorite. Second would be 2 Morse taper collets. They have proved to be cheap and very useful. Particularly if you have any other 2 MT spindles in the shop. Generally you will not find any make that are not sufficently accurate to give good service. I have and use many of them. Third is ER25. I don't think that this system is for those on a budget. I was bequeathed a set of collets with a 2 MT holder that I found very useful in a mill I also have, so I recently bought an adapter for the Myford spindle nose from Chronos. The fitting difficulties are recounted in a previous message in this forum. The nose piece shipped with the holder makes use very fiddling. The cost is quite high, but when properly fitted to the spindle the ER25 spring collet system is very accurate. It IS an item to be favored by the Myford tool collector. Lastly the Myford collet set. I have two collet closers; one for my super 7 and another for my C7. I have enough collets (15 or so) to get by, but I don't know where or how I would get any for any special use that would arise. I would not advise anyone starting out to even fool with the Myford collets because of the fitting time required to set it up for use. And not being able to find a viable supply of the collets themselves. I need to also mention that I have a 6 jaw scroll chuck that comes pretty close to being like a collet chuck. It is extremely easy to set up and use, and if I had no other accurate means of holding cylindrical stock, it would be my first choice for general use. Gordon French, Roseburg, Oregon ------- Re: Collet selection Posted by: "tobybishopx~xxaol.com" tobybishopx~xxaol.com Date: Fri Nov 14, 2008 7:57 am ((PST)) Hi All, just a reminder that collet sets and chucks can be bought from http://stores.ebay.co.uk/CTC-Tools from Hong Kong. Use the "search within site" to find what you're after. You have to be prepared to wait a few weeks for the post to arrive but at these prices I was very happy with my ER25 set and MT2 chuck for my DW mill and of course it also fits the 7 series spindle. The chuck has an M10 thread so I needed to make a new drawbar but that wasn't a problem. There have been several others who expressed the same positive opinion about items from this supplier. I've not yet seen any negative comments here. As usual with such comments, I've no connection other than as a satisfied customer, Toby ------- Re: Larger collets [sherline] Posted by: "a3sigma" dcclark111x~xxcomcast.net Date: Mon Jan 19, 2009 1:53 pm ((PST)) In sherlinex~xxyahoogroups.com, davidry wrote: > Thanks guys. Yes, the Sherline collet set came with a large pot and a > small pot, both drilled (about 1/8") and more importantly slotted so > that they're ready to be drawn closed by the drawbar. However, I'm not > quite sure how to do this accurately. Presumably I'd install one with > the drawbar, but not tight enough to close the slots. I have drill bits > and a boring bar, but I'm a little leery of cutting (and especially > boring) into a hole that has slots in it. Seems to me those slots are an > invitation to catch the cutting tool? Or will a successive number of > very light passes be enough to just work through it? I haven't had to > make a collet yet so any tips would be appreciated. Thanks! --Dave See: http://www.sherline.com/2090inst.pdf Not at all difficult, light cuts are the thing. Be certain the chuck is tightened on an 1/8" pin placed deeper in the chuck than you need to bore. Make a pair of gauges before you start. Turn a piece of scrap some few thousandths smaller than the final diameter you want on your chuck, and another exactly to size or a thousandth under. Bore the chuck 'til the smaller gauge just goes in, then take a final finishing cut equal to the difference in radius. Check with the larger gauge. It's OK if you're a hair big, the chuck will take that up when you tighten it on your work piece. I often get a couple of different diameters out of one chuck if the larger diameter is sufficiently shallow. I'll post some photos shortly. DC David Clark in Southern Maryland, USA [NOTE TO FILE: This above message here has already been corrected using information posted by DC shortly afterwards. He also said:] PHOOEY, blew that one. .... The first gauge pin should, of course, be a few thou SMALLER than the finished size. Bore 'til it just goes in, then cut the difference in radius. This technique makes it less likely that you will overshoot the final cut. You can also use the shanks of drills as gauge pins. Of course you could always use a 0 to 1 inch inside micrometer. I used to have one, but some fool closed it all the way and it disappeared. A set of small hole gauges is also very useful. See: http://www.mcmaster.com/ page 2233 BTW, I've had no problem starting the bore with a drill; though it will complain a bit. Definitely finish with a boring bar to ensure concentricity. DC ------- Re: Larger collets Posted by: "chieftoolmaker" chieftoolmakerx~xxearthlink.net Date: Mon Jan 19, 2009 1:54 pm ((PST)) Dave, To do it right, get three close fitting pins, or shim stock (there are three slots, right?) to fit into the slots. Clamp on the pins, or shim stock......Using the drawbar.... Make sure they will not be contacted by your boring bar. Your best bet is to bore out the collet/pot. Drill bits will catch and follow the hole. A boring bar will do the job. One caution....Take many light passes.... Take some finishing passes (called spring cuts) that allows the boring bar to relax.... That means successive passes with NO outfeed (you are boring internally) SLOOWLY work out to the right diameter..... Use your part/work as a plug gage for a slip to push fit. That's it..... Let us know... Regards, Jerry G (Glickstein) ------- Re: Collet set offered on ebay [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: "Brett Jones" brettx~xx5foot2.com Date: Sun Mar 1, 2009 6:39 pm ((PST)) Steve wrote: > collets that use a draw bar are for holding cutting tools. > collets that use a draw tube are for holding work. > Not true. Collets are for holding THINGS. What those things are does > not matter. The lathe could care less. My mill has a hollow drawbar > and I don't think they intended that you would put work in the spindle > (although I have heard of some pretty trick setups milling with > the work in the spindle). > The easiest / cheapest way to hold 3/4" diameter work in a collet in an > Atlas is to use a 3/4" MT3 collet. > The ER or 5C collet setups are the ultimate, though. > If you have a set of 3AT collets, then you really only need the collets > above 1/2" in 3MT. > Collets are not the best way to hold end mills. You really would want > a 3MT end mill holder, then you would not have to worry about the > end mill pulling out (don't ask me how I know). There are exceptions to every "rule", but in general a draw bar is used in a mill and a tube in a lathe (the Van Norman 5V collet being one exception). The problem with the bar (and hence advantage to the tube) is that it forces the draw bar collet to be a blind hole. Now lets say we wanted to chuck up a 12" long length of 3/4" material. How deep is the blind 3/4" MT3 collet you consider to be the "easiest / cheapest way" to hold stock? Three inches, maybe four? Next lets say we have to hold this work in a collet (low TIR, producing multiple parts, or for whatever reason) and we took your advice and went with the blind MT3 collets. We of course would find ourselves needing to buy or make a collet system that could accommodate our 12" long stock. Since the 3AT and 3C collets are limited to 1/2" for through spindle work because of the draw tube, our next choices for the 3/4" stock would be a ER spindle nose adapter or a 5C chuck. I should also point out that the MT3 to ER32 adapters bring us right back to the blind hole issue. Those adapters are meant to be used in a milling machine. If you want the ER system on a lathe, use the spindle adapters. In my opinion there are two rules for picking the best collet system for a lathe. One is to pick a system that allows the work being turned to slide through the head stock. The second is to use a system that allows you to fit the biggest work through the spindle as possible. For the Atlas/Craftsman machines that is either the ER spindle nose adapter or a 5C chuck. If you're tooling up from scratch, spending your cash on anything else is wasteful. Brett Jones ------- Re: Collet set offered on ebay Posted by: "danaz.chandler" djnx~xxieee.org Date: Sun Mar 1, 2009 8:03 pm ((PST)) I agree with Steve. I use an ER-40 collet system in both the mill and the lathe. I got an ER-40 to R8 adapter for the mill and a thread on ER-40 adapter for my Atlas 12" lathe (this from Tallgrass - not in his catalog, but ask him...) I then bought all the ER-40 collets on Ebay. Most are Chinese. All are nicely made. The advantage for me is that they have a .035 or so range of grip. So buying them in 1/32 increments means I can grip anything round from .125 through 1-1/16". Metric, odd size, drill bits, stock, end mills (and they do NOT slip in the ER sytem), edge finders, center drills, barstock, taps, boring heads, indicators, or whatever. One system. For the lathe, the thread on allows stock to slide through it. Dan in Chandler AZ. ------- 5C / ER-32 collets [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: "dragonfl1ght" dragonflightx~xxrogers.com Date: Wed Aug 26, 2009 12:09 pm ((PDT)) I am a totally inexperienced machinist wannabe. A year ago I purchased an Atlas 10" lathe and this winter a RF25/30 clone milling machine. I occasionally think about collets. On my mill I think a spin index and/or collet blocks would make life a lot easier. On my lathe I generally only use my 4-jaw chuck and am not at all bothered by spending the time (a couple of minutes maximum) to centre pieces, but diameters less than 1/4 inch are a pain, if I don't want to mar the piece. So now the questions. 5C collets are the choice for the collet blocks and the spin index, but are not continuous and are large for my lathe, but I can make/buy a 5C collet chuck for the lathe. ER-32 collets are not a bad size for the lathe, are front closing, continuous, but I would have to buy/make a 5C collet chuck for the ER-32 to use in the spin index. Finally cost. Enco has imported ER-32 collets for $250 and a set of 5C collets in 64ths (pretty close to continuous) for about the same, though if it were just for the spin index I would probably go for a smaller set of 5C collets. I have heard some people have had problems with the ER collets from Enco wrt [with respect to] runout, and $400 for a set of ETM collets is more than I would like to spend for the convenience on the lathe. Opinions, suggestions, help??? thanks mike ------- Re: 5C / ER-32 collets Posted by: "William Abernathy" williamx~xxinch.com Date: Wed Aug 26, 2009 12:40 pm ((PDT)) My advice would be to spend the money on a 3-jaw chuck and worry about collets later. If you're like me, eventually, you'll buy all the collets anyway. Just get a basic set (the 16ths) to go with the 5C spindexer, and when you want a project, build your own collet chuck for ER 32. If you want rock-bottom prices on any of this stuff, check out 800WATT on eBay. Just don't expect any customer service if something's wrong. I have been lucky with them, and have no complaints. If you're feeling adventuresome, you might want to check these guys out. http://www.glacern.com/index.php?page=home They have pretty pictures and good prices. I will be interested to hear if their stuff is as good as it looks. William A. ------- Re: 5C / ER-32 collets Posted by: "Dragonflight" dragonflightx~xxrogers.com Date: Wed Aug 26, 2009 3:16 pm ((PDT)) William. Actually I already have a reasonably good 3-jay chuck which I never use. Collets seem a better choice for small and soft pieces (aluminum/brass) -- but I probably need a better choice of materials to protect them from the jaws. Because of the mill (and cost) I am leaning toward the 5C collets, but it seems a shame to not be able to use them on the lathe. Glacern just came up on the milling group. They seem to have good prices -- $200 for the ER-32 set with at least a statement of .0002 TIR and ground, which would be better than I need to worry about! I don't know if they are hardened or not but?! I found today on Ebay metric ER-32 for $100 which seems really cheap with ".0005 runout", but I'm sure they aren't hardened. I live in Canada, so I usually get things shipped to my sister in Conn. and so it is a while before I get them. "Doubtful" customer service can be a problem. thanks mike [later message] update - I just got a call from Glacern and they said their collets were hardened. mike ------- Re: 5C / ER-32 collets Posted by: "Robert Silas" robert.silasx~xxvideotron.ca Date: Wed Aug 26, 2009 1:11 pm ((PDT)) Mike, to answer your paragraph: "ER-32 collets are not a bad size for the lathe, are front closing, continuous, but I would have to buy/make a 5C collet chuck for the ER-32 to use in the spin index." I made an adapter for the 13" Sharp lathe between MT5 to 5C collets and it turned out very good. I still have to make a draw tube for it. I have a full set of 5C collets and I bought some square-holding collets too. If you give me an off list e-mail address, you can have pictures if you'd like. Robert ------- Re: 5C / ER-32 collets Posted by: "Dragonflight" dragonflightx~xxrogers.com Date: Wed Aug 26, 2009 2:31 pm ((PDT)) Thanks Robert, but my small 10" is only a 3MT so you have to have quite a large chuck sticking out for the 5C collets. mike ------- Re: 5C / ER-32 collets Posted by: "Robert Silas" robert.silasx~xxvideotron.ca Date: Wed Aug 26, 2009 6:14 pm ((PDT)) Yes, I realized this myself as soon as I sent my e-mail. I bought MT3 collets for the 10" Atlas from 800WATT, 11 pieces for $64.00, if I remember right. I have not used those yet, the draw-bar yet to be made. Robert ------- Re: 5C / ER-32 collets Posted by: "Scott Henion" shenionx~xxshdesigns.org Date: Wed Aug 26, 2009 3:15 pm ((PDT)) Making a chuck that screws on to the outside of the spindle is not difficult, especially if you buy the clamping nut. I made one for ER-40 collets and it works well: http://shdesigns.org/Craftsman-12x36/er40.shtml I picked up the collets from 800watt, cost about $120 for 1/8 to 1". ER-32 is a bit cheaper. Scott G. Henion http://shdesigns.org/Craftsman-12x36/ ------- Re: 5C / ER-32 collets Posted by: "Dragonflight" dragonflightx~xxrogers.com Date: Wed Aug 26, 2009 3:29 pm ((PDT)) Scott, I had seen your website and your chuck which is why I thought it would be no problem. How do you find the quality of your ER set? mike ------- Re: 5C / ER-32 collets Posted by: "Scott Henion" shenionx~xxshdesigns.org Date: Wed Aug 26, 2009 7:24 pm ((PDT)) They seem good. I don't have any precision bars to test them with. First test was with a 3/4 bar and measured 0.003" runout at the collet. Took me a while to figure out the bar was oblong as there were two high spots 180 degrees apart. I think they are hardened. I found a set with the MT3 chuck for a good price. Then sold the MT3 chuck after I made my chuck. A few sellers carry the locking rings. They are hard to make as they have a flange in them. Makes getting tooling in there to cut the front taper difficult. Scott G. Henion Consultant Stone Mountain, GA SHDesigns http://www.shdesigns.org ------- Re: Which ER16 Collet for #29 Drill? [taigtools] Posted by: "Mike Nicewonger" twmasterx~xxtwmaster.com Date: Sun Nov 22, 2009 2:05 pm ((PST)) On Nov 22, 2009, at 4:51 PM, Jack wrote: > The #29 drill (0.136") that I use for tapping 8-32 in aluminum > doesn't seem to fit any of the ER16 collets that came with the > mill. The 3/16" doesn't tighten enough, and the 1/8" is too small > to take the bit. What size collet whould I be using for this, and > where can I get one? Jack: You can use a 5/32 collet. Part number 1041ER-I. Nick Carter sells them. $9.85 less 10% www.cartertools.com/catalog.html Mike N ------- Re: Which ER16 Collet for #29 Drill? Posted by: "Jack" tech.writerx~xxearthlink.net Date: Sun Nov 22, 2009 3:28 pm ((PST)) Yep, just found this at DeArmond Tool: ER16 Collets 1/16" .062-.043 3/32" .093-.054 1/8" .125-.086 5/32" .156-.117 3/16" .187-.148 7/32" .218-.179 1/4" .250-.211 9/32" .281-.242 5/16" .312-.273 11/32" .343-.304 3/8" .375-.336 ------- Collet chucks - Vertex or Soba ? [myfordlathes] Posted by: "eddyfonfon" eddy.fontainex~xxpandora.be eddyfonfon Date: Sun Jan 24, 2010 3:56 am ((PST)) Hi all, I am considering buying a set of er25 collets. Is there quality difference between these two brands, and eventually wich one is best in your opinion? Thanks, Eddy ------- Re: Collet chucks - Vertex or Soba ? Posted by: "Andy Chapman" Chapmanadx~xxaol.com chapmanad Date: Sun Jan 24, 2010 6:49 am ((PST)) Vertex is generally high-quality stuff and Soba is generally rubbish. Collets neer to be both accurate and well finished, so I would go for Vertex every time, if cost isn't an issue. Cheers, AndyC ------- Re: Collet chucks - Vertex or Soba ? Posted by: "Alan Moore" a.j.moorex~xxbtinternet.com alan4227 Date: Sun Jan 24, 2010 10:15 am ((PST)) Hi Eddy, Have you looked at CTC? (www.ctctools.biz/servlet/storefront) Cheap as chips and excellent quality. I bought a set of ER25 and later a set of ER32 and have been very happy with both. Regards, Alan ------- Re: Collet chucks - Vertex or Soba ? or CTC? Posted by: "tobybishopx~xxaol.com" tobybishopx~xxaol.com tsb2225 Date: Sun Jan 24, 2010 10:29 am ((PST)) Hi Eddy. I can second Alan's comments about CTC -- price and quality are both excellent. You just have to be willing to wait a few weeks for items to arrive from Hong Kong I think. cheers Toby ------- Re: Collet chucks - Vertex or Soba ? or CTC? Posted by: "dnaman43" mevagissyx~xxgmail.com dnaman43 Date: Sun Jan 24, 2010 10:51 am ((PST)) Me too. I have the ER25 collet set plus MT2 and R8 ER25 chucks. No complaints at all (and certainly none about the price). ------- Re: Collet chucks - Vertex or Soba ? or CTC? Posted by: "Ken Strauss" ken.straussx~xxgmail.com kstrauss7 Date: Sun Jan 24, 2010 12:43 pm ((PST)) Their prices are great but shipping is a little dear. To Canada they want $100.31 to ship a $72 set of ER-40 collets! ------- Re: Collet chucks - Vertex or Soba ? or CTC? Posted by: "dnaman43" mevagissyx~xxgmail.com dnaman43 Date: Sun Jan 24, 2010 3:06 pm ((PST)) I checked back on my original purchases. The shipping (to Canada) on the ER25 collet set was $17.50 and on the MT2 chuck it was $11:50. I didn't think that was too bad considering this is relatively heavy stuff .... not as heavy as ER40 though. It compares pretty well with, say, LMS. BTW, the FM50 is all packaged and wall-mounted. I've cut the holes in the control box and I'm about to wire it up. Probably do a smoke test this week. ------- Re: Collet chucks - Vertex or Soba ? or CTC? Posted by: "Alan Moore" a.j.moorex~xxbtinternet.com alan4227 Date: Sun Jan 24, 2010 3:48 pm ((PST)) I bought my first set via the CTC eBay shop, the second set direct from the CTC website. In the UK you are liable to pay import taxes on items coming into the country from Hong Kong, but often if the shipment value is low they don't bother to charge you. I don't know the situation in other countries, though. Regards, Alan ------- Re: Collet chucks - Vertex or Soba ? or CTC? Posted by: "callinicus1953" callinicus1953x~xxyahoo.co.uk callinicus1953 Date: Tue Jan 26, 2010 5:06 am ((PST)) Hi Guys, Seems an opportune time to remind users of ER collets that they are only recommended, by the original designers, for tool holding purposes. I know we all use them for work holding but we should bear in mind their true uses. Tooling can often afford to have more run out than can the work piece. cj(UK) ------- how to use collets [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: "Bruce Morton" brucemortonx~xxsbcglobal.net Date: Tue Apr 27, 2010 6:54 am ((PDT)) I plan to make nickel silver fly rod ferrules with my lathe and accuracy of the work is of utmost importance, otherwise the work is useless. I'm being advised that it is better for this work to be held in sized collets rather than the three jaw chuck. I want to hold a 3/8 piece of barstock...in a collet...for cuts requiring utmost precision. I can find the collet I need but how is this held in the lathe. I think I need a "draw in collet attachment" that goes into the Morse taper of the headstock. Is this what I need to hold a collet in my lathe? Where do I source this sort of collet holder? Oh, and I don't want to pay $500 for some fancy attachment...I need a cheap solution. ------- Re: how to use collets Posted by: "Russ Kepler" russx~xxkepler-eng.com Date: Tue Apr 27, 2010 7:08 am ((PDT)) > I'm being advised that it is better for this work to be held in sized > collets rather than the three jaw chuck. If you're making outside and inside cuts and all the cuts without rechucking there isn't going to be any difference between using a collet for the work and a chuck. The difference between them is that the collet (usually) is better centered than the 3 jaw, and the centering holds better between collets than the scroll on the 3 jaw chuck. But if you chuck the work once and make all the cuts at once it doesn't really matter how far from center the work starts as it always ends up dead on center. You need to say if you're chucking short pieces that don't enter the lathe spindle or chucking bar that needs to pass through the spindle. It would help to know the maximum bar size. There are collets chucks appropriate for all different situations. > Oh, and I dont want to pay $500 for some fancy attachment...I need a > cheap solution. I'm sure that you can get what you want for that price. ------- Re: how to use collets Posted by: "jo barden" jobarden422x~xxmsn.com Date: Tue Apr 27, 2010 7:12 am ((PDT)) I think you need 3AT collets and draw bar if memory serves although you could go down 3MT collets. I got mine off Ebay for £20 ish including delivery from Hong Kong. I think it was ctl tools or similar but you still need a drawbar. I made mine out of threaded rod and sawn to length, washer and nyloc and away. Jon ------- Re: how to use collets Posted by: "William Rutiser" wruyahoo05x~xxcomcast.net Date: Tue Apr 27, 2010 8:00 am ((PDT)) A few thoughts: As Russ pointed out, a 3-jaw chuck will work as well as a collet if you can turn all critical surfaces at one setting. Rechucking in a 3-jaw might be acceptable for some second operations such as facing a cut off part. I know very little about fly rods. I assume the ferrules are the bits for the joints between sections. As I visualize these, there is a critical OD on one end a critical ID on the other. Consider making arbors to hold the parts by the finished inner diameter to finish the outsides. Another possiblity was described in Model Engineering years ago. The author called them "chullets". These were essentially shouldered bushings with splits like collets held in a 4 jaw chuck. Once set up and centered they should be pretty accurate. Assuming you are making more than a few of these, you might consider a chuck with soft jaws or custom face plate fixtures. Bill ------- Re: how to use collets Posted by: "Glenn N" sleykinx~xxcharter.net Date: Tue Apr 27, 2010 8:26 am ((PDT)) While you can buy a collet set and closer for the Atlas lathe, there are options that are equally accurate. You can make what is sometimes referred to as a pot chuck. For your application I would get some 1/2" hex bar stock, mark one side and match mark the chuck jaw that it lines up with (for future reference). Drill/bore to 3/8", and slit it lengthwise along one of the points or a side that won't be on a jaw. If you need to set the work at a constant depth, use round bar and turn it down a bit to leave a flange to stop it in the 3 jaw. Bore it to insertion depth. drop down a size or two in drill bit and bore through. Slit it and go. You can get fancy and slit most of the way from each end on alternate sides to get more range. Whatever workholding device you use be sure to make some practice parts out of cheap material. Turning solid nickle silver barstock into swarf sounds expensive. The key to making this work with accuracy and repeatability is to keep the same orientation in your 3 jaw. Glenn ------- Re: how to use collets Posted by: "VTatlasLathex~xxcs.com" Date: Tue Apr 27, 2010 11:15 am ((PDT)) I've made thousands of ferrules over the years. Good ferrules are a precise item -- you need to be able to hold the female bore to no more than a few tenths of tolerance. To do it right you will need a set of collets from 9/64" thru 3/8" in 1/64" increments. There is a lot of rechucking in ferrule making, and were dealing with thin walled non ferrous material -- best gripped with a collet. I would invest in a good 5C collet chuck. Although the initial investment is more expensive, overall it is cheaper because the 5C is the most widely used collet. In addition collet stops, pot, emergency, and expanding collets are readily available if you decide to make reel seat hardware. The next best method would be a 3C draw in collet arrangement. Tools For Cheap sells the setup for around $150 -- less collets of course. Alternately you could just buy the 3c collet adapter ($50 or so) and machine your own drawbar and thread protector/ejector. It is a good simple lathe project, that you should be skilled enough to do before even attempting ferrule making. Dave ------- Re: how to use collets Posted by: "jmartin957x~xxaol.com" Date: Tue Apr 27, 2010 12:26 pm ((PDT)) The cheapest solution would be Morse taper collets. These fit right into your spindle bore, with no need for an adapter. These are typically threaded on the inside, which means you use a solid draw bar to tighten them. Solid draw bar means you can't extend the workpiece back through the spindle. Next would be collets that fit into an adapter, inside the spindle. Assuming that you have a 12" lathe, 3C collets will fit. They are externally threaded, so you use them with a draw tube instead of a draw bar. The hollow draw tube will pass workpieces up to 1/2", so you can work with long bars. Then you have the collets which are too large for the spindle bore, and are held by an adapter/chuck mounted on the spindle threads. 5C collets would be typical. Or one of the ER or TG series. The collet is closed by a nut bearing against the collet nose, and you can pass the workpiece through the collet and spindle. More overhang than the types held inside the spindle. John Martin ------- Re: how to use collets Posted by: "PeterH" peterh5322x~xxrattlebrain.com Date: Tue Apr 27, 2010 12:50 pm ((PDT)) Take an un-hardened MT adapter (5MT or 3MT to MT) and bore it for 3C collets. Make the drawtube from DOM tubing. ------- Re: 5c collets in a 4 jaw chuck Posted by: "Michael Fagan" woodworker88x~xxgmail.com Date: Sat May 1, 2010 10:30 am ((PDT)) The problem with the 5C collet blocks is that the closer is a nut on the back of the block. You couldn't change the part without removing it from the chuck every single time. Your best bet for your work is probably to either use 3C or 3MT collets with a homemade drawbar or drawtube. ------- Re: 5c collets in a 4 jaw chuck Posted by: "PeterH" peterh5322x~xxrattlebrain.com Date: Sat May 1, 2010 11:03 am ((PDT)) On May 1, 2010, Michael Fagan wrote: > Your best bet for your work is probably to either use > 3C or 3MT collets with a homemade drawbar or drawtube. OR ... Make a drawbar with a nut on the end, and use the square collet block in a 4-jaw as described before. A removable tommy bar on the opposite end for a closer would be appropriate. If one had a 6-jaw with an adjust-true feature, then the hex block which usually come in the same set of collet blocks could also be used in the same way. Similarly, if one had a 3-jaw with an adjust-true feature, then the hex block which usually come in the same set of collet blocks could also be used in the same way. As the OP stated he is doing ferrule work, and requires only a limited range of sizes, 3MT collets and a simple drawbar might make the most sense. Or, an un-hardened MT adapter from the spindle to and bored and finish machined to accept 3C collets. Or, an ER-type collet chuck, made using "found" materials for the body and a factory nut for the closer. The alternatives are almost endless. ------- Re: 5c collets in a 4 jaw chuck Posted by: "n8as1x~xxaol.com" docn8as Date: Sat May 1, 2010 4:04 pm ((PDT)) the vertical 5C collet fixture can be bolted to a faceplate ...the thrded collet closing bar wud need to be replaced by a non thrded tommy bar....i have one from some years back bought for that purpose, but after fitting 3 jaw chucks that are 1 1/4 thou tir, the necessity didnt seem pressing ..i still have a set of 3 AT collets, collecting a lot of dirt, that are sometimes pressed into service when advantageous best wishes docn8as ------- Re: 5c collets in a 4 jaw chuck Posted by: "Charlie Gallo" Charliex~xxTheGallos.com Date: Sat May 1, 2010 6:26 pm ((PDT)) Bruce: Dumb question - what is the MAXIMUM size ferrule you going to clamp up? For fly rods, I can't see it going over 1/2". If so, you should be able to pick up a drawtube, adaptor, and the necessary 3AT collets cheap enough (AFAIK, Sobel's is gone, or I would have said to call him - he had piles of them.) Getting 3AT collets in 1/16ths is easy - getting the 32nds isn't TOO hard - getting the 64ths gets fun - I'm still missing one or 2 sizes, but then again, I haven't needed them - if I ever DO, you can still order them from Hardinge (and have a heart attack when you get the price - I DID spend for brand new 3/8" and 1/2" collets because most I had seen were beat, and I was doing production work, and it was worth it not to get sprung units (I had found a NICE condition 1/4") 73 de KG2V ------- Re: 5c collets in a 4 jaw chuck Posted by: "Bruce Morton" brucemortonx~xxsbcglobal.net Date: Sat May 1, 2010 8:55 pm ((PDT)) charlie...thanks for the personal response...im really struggling trying to figure out the best way to go on the collets. fly rod ferrules are rarely over 3/8". precision is key. we size them by 64ths so im planning to make some split bushings to fill in where i either cant or dont want to purchase the proper collet. i dont need pass thru...the ferrules are quite short. i do like the idea of keeping to the "original" style of collet and that seems to be the 3at collet. so...im not sure which way ill go. i do appreciate your help... regards bruce ------- Re: 5c collets in a 4 jaw chuck Posted by: "stephen_s_wood" stephen_s_woodx~xxyahoo.com Date: Sun May 2, 2010 8:19 am ((PDT)) The simplest way to go does seem to be keeping to the "original" style of collet, which on my Atlas QC-54 is 3MT rather than 3AT. Although does carry 3MT collets, they seem to be offered in increments of 1/16" rather than 1/64". The drawbar for their 3MT collets requires little more than a trip to the local hardware store for a longish 3/8 UNC bolt, fender washers, and a spacer. It is likely - but check first - that you can easily find sets of 3ATs and 3Cs in 1/32" increments, but these require adapters. Perhaps an ER-32 chuck with a 3MT shank would be in order, but the chucks themselves are not cheap. ------- [Posted to both the atlas_craftsman and atlas618lathe groups] PSI Collet Chucking System - First Impression Posted by: "EdwinB" n5kzwx~xxarrl.net Date: Wed Aug 4, 2010 4:07 pm ((PDT)) One of my woodworking catalogs (Penn State Industries) had an entry for a collet chucking system for 1"x8 spindles. (The LCDOWEL Sclloe Chucking System from PSI.) At under $90 (before shipping) I decided to give it a try. The system includes: the 1"x8 collet head, a collet closing nut, 2 tommy bars, a 3/4-16 threaded adapter, and 5 ER32 collets (1/8, 3,8, 5/8, and 3/4"). When the kit arrived, I put it on the 618 and chucked a 3/8" drill in the collet. Using a Bestest DTI with 0.0005" graduations, the TIR on the drill bit was slightly less than 0.0005", but certainly more than 0.0004". Even though this system is marketed to the woodworking industry, it is quite solid and should have no problem handling any forces the 618 can generate. I have never used an ER32 collet system, so I don't know how the release mechanism in the chuck is supposed to work, but the collet certainly (and unexpectedly) popped out of the collet head when I removed the head. The free collets appeared to have a slight amount of drag when shoved into the nut, but I don't know how they are supposed to feel. The external threads on the collet head appeared to be about 40.35mm dia., with a pitch of 1.5mm. Again, I don't know what the industry specifications are for a "standard" ER32 system. Negatives: Even though the components were packaged in oiled bags, there was a small bit of rust near the start of the internal 1"x8 thread on the back of the collet head. There is only one tommy bar hole in the collet head and the nut. I will probably put two more holes in each at 120-degree intervals. Other: Somehow, I think the 3/4"x16 adapter is going to end up mounted on my rotary table to hold the 618 chucks and faceplates on the mill when needed. All in all, I would have no problem recommending this system to other 618 owners looking for a collet system. Now I need to find a source for some of the intermediate sizes of ER32 collets. This message will be cross-posted on the Atlas/Craftsman Group. Regards, Ed ------- Re: PSI Collet Chucking System - First Impression Posted by: "wheezer" wheezer606x~xxverizon.net Date: Wed Aug 4, 2010 4:20 pm ((PDT)) Ed: The collet "snaps" into the back of the nut with considerable thumb force. Place the collet into the back of the nut at an angle, top tilted back, bottom seated up tight. Then push hard with thumbs to snap the collet over the retaining ring. Thread the nut with collet onto the body loosely. Put in the bit and tighten with the wrench. The tommy holds the body whilst you torque the nut with the wrench. lance ------- NOTE TO FILE: Following is a very concise and helpful summary of the various collet systems in use with Atlas lathes, and some other brands. ------- Re: collets [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: "jerdalx~xxsbcglobal.net" Date: Mon Dec 6, 2010 5:49 am ((PST)) "Warren D." on December 05, 2010 wrote: >I don't have any collets for my 101.28890. I've seen MT3 and ERO4 >mentioned. Do this fit in the chuck and are they the right ones >for my lathe? Are they expensive? Thanks Warren Your machine was originally supplied with "3AT" collets, which are a non-standard collet supported by (IIRC) only one other lathe brand. They are still available new. However, your machine CAN use anything that an adapter or "collet chuck" can be made or obtained for. Some collets or holder systems will not allow a workpiece to pass through the spindle, limiting the length of work that is usable. However, the absolute maximum diameter that will fit through is about 0.75 inch (19mm). Among the various types.... MT3 fit the taper with no adapter, but will not allow any part to pass through the spindle hole. They use a drawbar that you can easily make in your shop. They are the easiest and probably cheapest way into collet use. ER collets have a through hole, but require a somewhat pricey adapter. Making your own adapter is probably not practical unless you are rather proficient at lathe work. Some holders for ER collets allow work to pass through, and some do not. You have to be careful to find the right type, in a style that fits your spindle nose. However, ER collets have a wide range, and one size fits a lot of different work diameters compared to any of the other types. 3AT are the "original" type, they require an adapter and a "drawtube" that pulls the collet closed. The tube limits work diameter to about 0.5", but the collets are fairly common. 3C are a similar type, much more standardly used in industry. Same system, slightly different dimensions. You can in a practical manner make an adapter and drawtube for the 3C (or the 3AT) style, with only reasonable care and skills. Both types of collet are fairly cheap. 5C are a larger size in the same series as the 3C. You cannot use an adapter with them, as they are too big for the spindle. However, a "collet chuck" can be used to adapt for their use. They cover a similar overall range as the ER collets, but individual collets cover only a small range. To offset this, the 5C is probably the cheapest collet you can buy, due to extremely wide usage. I tend to believe that 'collet chucks" and adapters that cannot fit within the spindle (ER, 5C, etc) are not likely to be as accurate and stable as collets that fit a taper adapter fitting into the spindle (3AT, 3C, MT3). All the "chucks" or "adapters" that fit OUTSIDE the spindle suffer from extra "stickout" and limber flexibility compared to ones solidly seated inside the spindle taper. You may or may not care, or agree about this point. JT ------- [TOPIC ACTUALLY CHANGES HERE TO TAPER CUTTING TO MAKE COLLETS/CHUCKS] Re: collets [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: "Warren D." warrengrantx~xxyahoo.com Date: Thu Dec 9, 2010 9:26 pm ((PST)) Scott wrote: > The spindle has a 1-1/2", 8TPI spindle. You can buy or make an adapter > for ERxx collets. This is a better option as you can pass work through > the spindle. Here is the one I made: > http://shdesigns.org/Craftsman-12x36/er40.shtml > The first picture is an MT3 to ER40 adapter. ER40 will hold up to 1", > ER32 up to 3/4". The rest of the page is how I made an ER40 chuck. Not > that hard to do. Scott, I'm following most of what you say by studying the pictures. This is a tremendous help to me since I'm not the machinist you are. If I understand you correctly, you must have a taper attachment. I don't so I would have a problem making a taper cut. Any suggestions? I am going to search for a taper attachment but I doubt that I would use it more than once. Warren ------- Re: collets Posted by: "Michael Fagan" woodworker88x~xxgmail.com Date: Thu Dec 9, 2010 9:38 pm ((PST)) Short tapers such as those used in collets can be cut using the compound slide, which all Atlas lathes have. By swiveling the compound, you get an additional axis of movement parallel to any angle, which can be advanced to cut a relatively short external or internal taper. ------- Re: collets Posted by: "Scott Henion" shenionx~xxshdesigns.org Date: Thu Dec 9, 2010 10:34 pm ((PST)) Warren D. wrote: > since I'm not the machinist you are. Me an machinist?!? Just a guy on his 3rd lathe after buying two that were too small and sloppy. I learned a lot on them including how useless they were. If you are starting with a 9 to 12", then you are way ahead of where I started. A taper attachment is a big help for getting an accurate taper but I don't have one. Sorry, I forgot to take pictures of much of the steps. You use the compound slide. Set it to 8 degrees and use it to run the boring bar in/out along the taper. You use the regular cross slide to increase the depth of the cut. You can also use the carriage, move left to increase the cut. I did move the carriage once to better "center" the compound. I locked the carriage and it is all done with the cross and compound slides. The compound is a bit of a pain as it will get loose on extremes. Set it so when the compound slide is "centered" over the base, it is about half way in. That way you don't run the compund too far each way where it gets sloppy. I did run the gibs real tight. It is slow as you can't use a power feed. Cut about 80% of the taper so the collet sets about 1/4" out from the taper. Then place a good round bar in the collet and see how it fits. It should not rock. If the back end moves, the taper is too shallow and increase the angle. If the front wobbles, decrease the taper. Adjusting the compound angle is a pain as you get down to about 1/4 degree adjustment. Someone else suggested sliding a collet on a round bar and chuck the bar in a 3-jaw. Then adjust the compound angle so a tool slides evenly along the taper. Do another light pass and check it again. Repeat ad nausium. For the final passes, I inserted the collet in, pushed and turned it, then looked at the bore to see if it rubbed more on the front or rear, then another light pass. Bluing would be best but as my collet chuck is aluminum, you can easily see where the steel rubbed. Boring is a pain as they tend to chatter and have some spring. I kept doing light passes even repeating without advancing the cross slide. I did 3 last passes without changing the depth. Last pass polished up the surface nicely. I did use some 1000 grit sandpaper to smooth it more, then a buffing wheel. I wanted it real smooth so the collets would not bind. Face the front so the groove in the collets is about 0.050" out of the bore when it is pressed all the way in. This is not enough (collet not pressed in tight): http://shdesigns.org/Craftsman-12x36/images/er40-4.jpg When pushed all the way in, the groove was flush with the front. I had to do a few face cuts to get it right. I concentrated on getting the bore angle right first. Last part is turning the threads for the clamping nut. It is metric (50x1.5mm IIRC) so you will need to look up the gear settngs. Note: many tables are wrong for metric, Mine were way off (instead of mm per thread it was threads per mm.) Another one I found was off by a factor of two. Use some scrap to verify, instead of ruining the piece like I did ;) My book was printed in 1941, metric threads were rare so was probably a while before they found the errors. Here's the dimensions of the collets and holders: http://www.rego-fix.com/catalog/pdf/13-techinfo.pdf Cavity (chuck) dimensions on page 3. You can make your own nut, but is is difficult. You can use an arbitrary thread (finer the better.) Bore then an internal thread. Then you need to bore a 30-degree taper on the inside of the front. Not easy. A real nut has a ridge inside to hold the collet groove. It will pull the collet out as you remove the nut (they wedge in quite tight.) You would probably have to make custom cutters to cut the area between the taper and the internal ridge. I picked up a nut off ebay. Some want a fortune for them with shipping. I purchased a full set of collets, wrench and an MT3 chuck off ebay. I think it was about $160 for a full ER40 set. Er32 would be cheaper as it is smaller and less collets. I used it, then when I made the chuck, sold the MT3->ER40 chuck to recoup some cost. I sold the wrench with the MT3 chuck and made one out of some scrap steel. I think I got the set off 800watt on ebay. Decent chuck and collets seem accurate but I had to deal with his "black hole" support. No idea if he shipped them and when. Feel free to ask more. This group has taught me most what I know. Post picts of your work. We love that stuff. ;) Scott G. Henion Craftsman 12x36 lathe: http://shdesigns.org/Craftsman12x36 ------- ER32 & ER40 [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: "Warren D." warrengrantx~xxyahoo.com Date: Sun Dec 26, 2010 4:15 pm ((PST)) I'm still toying with making a collet holder and am curious if the nut for the ER32 is different from the ER40? I've seen them on eBay and it looks like some of them are the same or will interchange. Since my headstock will only allow 3/4" I see no reason to go larger than that. ------- Re: ER32 & ER40 Posted by: "Michael Fagan" woodworker88x~xxgmail.com Date: Sun Dec 26, 2010 5:23 pm ((PST)) No, the diameters are different (thus giving the ER 40 a larger capacity). ------- Re: ER32 & ER40 Posted by: "oldstudentmsgt" wmrmeyersx~xxsbcglobal.net Date: Mon Dec 27, 2010 4:48 am ((PST)) Warren, Clint Driggers posted instructions for building your own ER 25, 32, & 40 chuck for the chinese 7x lathes on the 7x12 group before he passed. The drawings would be adaptable to a Craftsman. His drawings are here: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/7x12minilathe/files/ER%20Chuck%20Drawings/ The instructions are in the files section just about the ER chuck drawings folder. There is lots of other info there that would be of use that isn't lathe- specific that you might enjoy, as well. If you'd prefer not to join the list, let me know, and I'll email the drawings and instructios to you. Bill in OKC ------- Re: ER32 & ER40 Posted by: "jo barden" jobarden422x~xxmsn.com Date: Mon Dec 27, 2010 6:51 am ((PST)) I must admit I just bought one on ebay, one 3mt for Atlas lathe and mill and one 2mt for Drummond M type lathe, I must admit I am very pleased with them, far more accurate for a dumbo like me on a 4 jaw chuck. Jon G6UWK ------- Re: ER32 & ER40 Posted by: "peterh5322x~xxrattlebrain.com" Date: Mon Dec 27, 2010 11:35 am ((PST)) These are good designs which are easily adaptable to other spindles, for example 1-1/2"-8. The usual approach is to buy a factory nut and nut wrench, but a nut may also be made in-house, although the eccentric within the nut may be a little tricky to make. If making a nut in-house, an Imperial thread may be substituted for the normal metric thread of the nut. I tried making an ER40 chuck for my 1-1/2"-8 machine, but the hot-rolled "mystery metal" (most probably 1040) which I bought was not too happy with my carbide tooling. A piece of 12L14 probably would have been better, but a 3" lg. length of 2" dia. material was not available from my local supplier. ------- Re: ER32 & ER40 Posted by: "n5fee" n5feex~xxnetzero.net Date: Tue Dec 28, 2010 5:17 am ((PST)) I have been considering getting some of this type collet. I am curious, what is eccentric in the nut? What does the nut look like? I had envisioned just a plain nut with a flange on the front that would squeeze the collet in the taper just like a draw bar pulls on the back of a 5c collet. Do these work some other way? Dallas Claremore, OK ------- Re: ER32 & ER40 Posted by: "Scott Henion" shenionx~xxshdesigns.org Date: Tue Dec 28, 2010 6:00 am ((PST)) I have no idea what he means by an eccentric; mine have none. They have a 60-degree taper on the inside of the nut for the front of the collet. If you look at ERxx collets, there is a groove around them. The nut has a ridge just ahead of the threads that the collet "snaps" into. This is used to pull the collet out of the chuck as it will be wedged in tight. You can feel it, the nut goes loose, then tight momentarily as it pulls the collet close. It does mean you need to put the collet in the nut first, then screw it on. Making a nut is difficult because of this ridge. You have to bore to size on both sides of it, then cut the taper between the ridge and front. Then cut the threads right up to the ridge. You can make one without the ridge but you will probably need to use a rod through the back of the spindle to push the collet loose. Scott G. Henion Craftsman 12x36 lathe: http://shdesigns.org/Craftsman12x36 ------- Re: ER32 & ER40 Posted by: "jo barden" jobarden422x~xxmsn.com Date: Tue Dec 28, 2010 6:15 am ((PST)) The nut has a inner flange which is off centre so that the collet is retained on removal of the nut, and with just a slight twist the collet falls out; really clever and it does work; I also like the clamping range as it is about plus or minus 1mm so the 13mm one does 1/2" no problem, I have not had any climbing of cutters when using in my mill even though there is no "back stop" like the Clarkeson type holders. Jon G6UWK ------- ER32 & ER40 Posted by: "peterh5322x~xxrattlebrain.com" Date: Tue Dec 28, 2010 9:06 am ((PST)) These collets have two 8 degree surfaces to enable closing from the inside and the outside. The outside surface is within the nut. The inside surface is within the collet chuck. In order to ensure collet unlocking and withdrawing there is a slot within the collet and a matching tongue within the nut. The collet is, first, mounted onto the nut (and onto the tongue) and is, second, mounted into the collet chuck. In order to allow the collet to be easily mounted and unmounted on the tongue, the tongue necessarily must be slightly oversized. But, if slightly oversized then it won't withdraw the collet from the chuck. When the tongue is made eccentrically it allows collet mounting (to the nut) by the simple expedient of starting the collet within the nut manually, but at a slight angle to it. The collet and nut assembly is, then, mounted in the chuck where the collet is forced into a concentric position. You cannot, first, mount the collet into the collet chuck and, second, screw on the nut. This would damage the collet. During unmounting, the eccentric tongue ensures withdrawing the collet and nut as an assembly. The collet is, thereafter, removed from the nut by holding the collet at a slight angle to the nut. It is an elegant system, but one which almost mandates a CNC-made nut. No matter, nuts are considered expendable, and these are readily available from most sources. The wrenches, too. ------- [atlas_craftsman] new article available: Making A Limited Range Jacobs Flex Collet® Posted by: "RG Sparber" rgsparberx~xxaol.com Date: Wed Jul 13, 2011 7:07 am ((PDT)) This article explains how to make limited range Jacobs Flex Collets by using silicone caulk to hold the jaw parts together. I have written enough about setting the taper so that is assumed in this article. If you are interested, please see http://rick.sparber.org/mfc.pdf The trick works well and I have since made a boring bar collar that lets me hold my 1/2" boring bars in a 1" boring bar QCTP holder. Ah, but that article is now at Village Press. Your comments and questions are welcome. All of us are smarter than any one of us. Rick ------- [Steel choice for making a collet holder] Steel choice for making colett holder [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: "JeffD" jefdaviesx~xxsbcglobal.net Date: Thu Aug 18, 2011 7:53 pm ((PDT)) HI guys --I am fortunate to have a full set of Edestaal collets. I wanna make a holder for them that screws into my 10F spindle. I believe this is gonna require some 2 1/2" bar ....What kind of steel do you recommend I order? This has to do with my rounding SS bolt heads, with my homemade radius cutter, but I need to do longer bolts that cannot be chucked into a drill chuck. Bottom line: What steel alloy is best for making tooling, Knowing that the "Machinist" is a moron. Kindest regards, Jeff Davies, North California ------- Re: Steel choice for making colett holder Posted by: "Russ Kepler" russx~xxkepler-eng.com Date: Thu Aug 18, 2011 8:22 pm ((PDT)) If it's something likely to take some abuse (lots of collet changes, etc.) I'd use 4140PH or equivalent, maybe 1144 if I couldn't find the 4140. If it's less likely to be abused or used less, I've made collet holders from Durabar cast iron. If there's going to be a lot of stickout from the spindle face, I'd go with the Durabar for the better anti-vibration characteristics. ------- Re: Steel choice for making colett holder Posted by: "William Abernathy" williamx~xxinch.com Date: Thu Aug 18, 2011 10:46 pm ((PDT)) Don't get hung up on alloys. If I had to recommend one, I'd say something free-machining like a 12L or 12T14, but any generic hot-roll or cold-roll you can get your hands on will do the trick. I disagree with respondents who recommend cast iron, as I've had spotty success with CI in anything requiring tensile strength, and this applica- tion sounds as if it will require screw threads cut into the collet holder. It remains a distinct possibility that your threads are not going to be perfect, so it's better to have a material with better tensile strength. Any steel should fit the bill. Don't pay extra for hardenable alloys, like drill rod, because hard is not something you're much going to care for. If these are ER collets, are you able to cut metric threads? You'll have some odd threads to cut if you want to match the "official" ER collet nut. My solution was just to make my own nut with SAE threads, too. William ------- Re: Steel choice for making colett holder Posted by: "Russ Kepler" russx~xxkepler-eng.com Date: Fri Aug 19, 2011 7:30 am ((PDT)) I don't think the threads would be the limiting factor in material selection -- there's usually a lot of engagement over a large diameter leading to quite a bit of strength even in CI. Hardinge has quite a few collet holders made from CI, and I don't think that they're poorly designed. What CI won't take is a lot of banging and abuse, crap between the collet and chuck body, etc. There you want something a bit harder like a 40 point steel. If you're making one for industrial use you might want to consider something even tougher. A lot of 3-jaw chuck bodies are made from "semi-steel", basically cast iron with much of the carbon burned out but otherwise not alloyed. Chuck makers like it as it's easier to work than a cast steel but it does seem to do the job at a lower strength specification than even mild steel. ------- Re: Steel choice for making colett holder Posted by: "Scott Henion" shenionx~xxshdesigns.org Date: Fri Aug 19, 2011 7:42 am ((PDT)) My ER40 collet chuck is made from 6061 aluminum. It is plenty strong enough. Remember this is a light-duty lathe. 2 1/2 is a good size and what mine is made from. I'd hate to have to cut the large internal thread on a hard steel or iron. I'd use A36 hot rolled mild steel. More than adequate and will machine ok. 12L14 will be fine if you want easy machining. Scott G. Henion Craftsman 12x36 lathe: http://shdesigns.org/Craftsman12x36 ------- Re: Steel choice for making colett holder Posted by: "Jerrold Tiers" jerdalx~xxsbcglobal.net Date: Fri Aug 19, 2011 7:48 am ((PDT)) I'm not entirely clear on what sort of holder is under discussion...... FINE threads are indeed a limiting factor, more from a practical stand- point. CI crumbles if cross-threaded, or subjected to any rough handling, with fine details like collet threads, especially large diameters of fine threads. If you mean coarser threads to close the cover on an ER setup, etc, likely less or no problem. I made a drawtube setup, evidently not what is planned here if CI is in consideration. Using regular pipe for the drawtube, I knew the material was not cleanly threadable with single point threading, since the pitch is several times finer than normal pipe thread, and the material is almost like taffy. Even if threaded well, it might cross-thread easily. I used an end of decent steel, hard-soldered into the pipe, and threaded that for the fine collet thread. The "closer" portion has no threads in a drawtube setup, so it isn't as fussy. Use anything that will wear well enough for you. If making a "collet block", again only the nut is of interest for threading, and no law says it must be the same material as the block. For harder shop use, 4140 PH..... for occasional home use, CI, CRS or hot rolled 1018 would be fine; probably 1018 is good even for the nut. I don't think I'd use CI, even if it is "possible" to use, which I agree it is in theory. It's so much easier to use a more "forgiving" material that it makes little sense to select a gummy or brittle material. JT ------- Re: Steel choice for making colett holder Posted by: "Charlie Gallo" Charliex~xxTheGallos.com Date: Fri Aug 19, 2011 3:10 pm ((PDT)) Russ Kepler wrote: > If it's something likely to take some abuse (lots of collet changes, > etc.) I'd use 4140PH or equivalent, maybe 1144 if I couldn't find the > 4140. Of course, we could always say he should use something fairly tough, machine, and then case harden, but given his self imposed limitation of "Moron Machinist"... If he goes 1144, what would you say, stressproof? 73 de KG2V - Charles Gallo Quality Custom Machine-shop work for the radio amateur (sm) ------- Re: Steel choice for making colett holder Posted by: "Russ Kepler" russx~xxkepler-eng.com Date: Fri Aug 19, 2011 9:04 pm ((PDT)) Pretty much any 1144 with ASTM A311 spec will machine the same. I've swapped in non-spec 1144 and found it pretty much identical in machining characteristics to Stressproof, at least as far as I could see. It's kind of fun to machine, like a good leaded steel. 4140PH machines nicely, too, but the chips don't break easily unless you take a pretty good cut. I'm not sure that I could do it on the Atlas, not without a really small tip radius or if I snuck a chipbreaker right up to the cut. ------- Re: Steel choice for making colett holder Posted by: "Charlie Gallo" Charliex~xxTheGallos.com Date: Sat Aug 20, 2011 8:47 am ((PDT)) That Atlas IS a tad lighter than your big lathe, eh? Still waiting to find a "real good deal" on a bigger lathe, but really haven't been doing enough in the shop to justify a new lathe. 73 de KG2V - Charles Gallo ------- Re: Steel choice for making colett holder Posted by: "James Rice" james.ricex~xxgmail.com Date: Sat Aug 20, 2011 9:16 am ((PDT)) Same here. I've been concentrating on house remodeling (keeping SWMBO happy) and the 108-112 degree heat hasn't made me want to go out to the shop to do machining either. It was so hot week before last that my gallons of SAE30 and SAE40 burst on the shelf. I am starting to look for a larger engine lathe and a decent second op lathe. I may look for a larger v-mill and a Clausing 22" drill press as well. On topic, with an Atlas lathe, I'd use 12L14. James ------- Re: Steel choice for making colett holder Posted by: "L. Garlinghouse" lhghousex~xxsuddenlink.net Date: Sun Aug 21, 2011 10:03 am ((PDT)) Some flavor of 41xx [SAE designation for chrome-molybdenum alloy steel] has been recommended for a collet holder, 4140 to be exact. My personal feelings, faced with the same issue, is whittle one out of mild steel because it is cheap and available and see how that works. If you find it is wearing out or yielding, then do it again out of something better. Chances are you'll mess up your first one anyway, so less regret in pitching a mildsteel piece of scrap rather than something else. BUT . . . if you are looking for a small piece of 41xx, with a little research you will find that SAE GR 5 bolts [the ones with the 3 lines at 120 degrees on the head] are of similar steel. I'm a little fuzzy on this, so check me out in MHB elsewhere, but the GR 5 steels specs seem to be sloppy 4140 specs. You can probably find a large GR5 bolt at a farm supply store for a lot less than you can buy a piece of stock from a steel supplier. Or maybe in someone's scrap pile. Properties of 4140 is toughness and medium hardenability, so it would be a good choice for a collet holder -- maybe a bit of over kill, but of course wretched excess is part of the fun of running your own shop -- and what has made our civilization GREAT!!! Later, L.H. ------- Over-stressed collets [taigtools] Posted by: "StlBill" stl.billx~xxyahoo.com Date: Sat Nov 26, 2011 11:07 am ((PST)) I have a couple of Taig collets that have been squeezed a bit too hard. (Actually I am surprised I only have two since my original collet set was purchased over 20 years ago and used a lot!) If I pry the divisions apart with a thin knife blade or similar tool, will they maintain their previous accuracy? If I can figure out what sizes they are, I'll order a couple of new ones from Nick. Happy Holidays Everybody. Bill ------- Re: Over-stressed collets Posted by: "Nicholas Carter and Felice Luftschein" felicex~xxcasco.net Date: Sat Nov 26, 2011 1:07 pm ((PST)) Insert a rod of the diameter in the collet, insert that into the spindle and tighten down the nut. Check for runout. Should work ok. ------- Re: Over-stressed collets Posted by: "roberts" robert5721x~xxmac.com Date: Sat Nov 26, 2011 1:37 pm ((PST)) Sir, the taig collets are only about 40 dollars for a whole set. If the collets have been distorted in over tightening, they will not realign. The space in the slits is not the only thing you need to worry about. Displacement of material in the upper part of the taper that aligns the collet can really raise hell with accuracy. Why not just get a new set? Cheap and accurate. I replace mine about once every two to three years.. smile .. Robert Seddon ------- Re: Over-stressed collets Posted by: "Yi Yao" yix~xxyyao.ca Date: Sat Nov 26, 2011 1:50 pm ((PST)) Also, take a look inside the nose of the spindle. Make sure that the tapered surface on which the collet seats has not been scratched. ------- Re: Over-stressed collets Posted by: "Paul J. Ste. Marie" taigx~xxste-marie.org Date: Sat Nov 26, 2011 3:20 pm ((PST)) And at the risk of stating the obvious, don't go under the min diameter for the collets. You have to poke around a bit, but for most of the sizes the allowed range is -1/32in (1mm), +0. I wound up getting collets (and a nifty box) for all the odd 32nd's from Maritool http://www.maritool.com/Collets-ER-Collets-ER16-Col lets/c21_56_61/index.html Taig is missing some of them, perhaps because the collets are actually in mm sizes? As I recall, the collet sizes Taig carries all match up to an even number of millimeters, and the ones they don't have don't match up to an even number of millimeters. The Maritool collets seem to be pretty good. I haven't actually tried to measure runout. One cosmetic detail is that the inner slits on the smaller sizes aren't centered on the expansion slits. ------- [myfordlathes] Re: I have heard from Myfords regarding their patent #2MT Collets in Posted by: "kdcamerx~xx295.ca" kdcamerx~xx295.ca Date: Thu Nov 15, 2012 5:24 am ((PST)) > Previously I posted a query here about if anyone made Myford style #2 MT > collets in #3 MT. Nobody here responded so I did what I should have > done first, asked Myford themselves. > They responded, basically they don't make them anymore in #2 MT, they > didn't know about anybody making them in #3. They wrote their customers > generally go to the ER Collet System. VR Larry Murray A point of trivia, I suppose, but the Myford style collets were made by Hardinge, not Myford. Dave Cameron Ottawa, Ontario ------- Re: I have heard from Myfords regarding their patent #2MT Colle Posted by: "Andrew Curl" methuselahx~xxntlworld.com Date: Thu Nov 15, 2012 10:21 am ((PST)) Myford never did have a patent on those collets, nor even an agreement with Crawford Collets, who made them here (UK). After a while, most of us learned the Crawford code number, and bought them direct from source. All a chap would have to do is find this number, contact CC, and ask how much MT3 collets of the type would cost. Alternatively, CC are online -- they are part of the 600 Group. If they don't hold what you want in stock, they will produce anything you care to specify... At a cost. Andrew UK ------- Re: Myford Collets Posted by: "Robert Mitchell" rmm200x~xxyahoo.com Date: Thu Nov 15, 2012 10:37 am ((PST)) Might you be convinced to part with the Crawford number? I have been browsing their catalog, but that does not even list MT3. Robert Mitchell ------- Re: Myford Collets Posted by: "Andrew Curl" methuselahx~xxntlworld.com Date: Thu Nov 15, 2012 12:56 pm ((PST)) Robert, this is the situation -- My Father and I restored an ML7 (for him) in the late 1990s. One of the accessories he found was a set of the MT2 collets and the closing cap, and at the shows we noted that whilst Myford were selling the collets in little blue card boxes, they were not removing the Crawford label before slapping their own over the top. I have Pater looking for an i/d number for you; my own lathe (an "M" derivative) ultimately got fitted up with a new mandrel and a Myford "dead-length" collet closer. The collets for that are stamped thus: "MYFORD A7821" And below that, the crossed "C"s of the Crawford logo: "[CC] 2231" So I ordered a full set using the latter number, directly from the manufacturers. Do not be discouraged that you cannot find MT2 collets listed on a website; I also run a BCA jig borer, and learned to order by number without mentioning BCA at all, as there -was- an agreement at the time, and this circumvented massive mark-up price hikes. They never appeared in Crawford's catalogue either. If you can tolerate drawbar MT3 collets, Rotagrip will have them off the shelf; if you intend to use collets on a day-in day-out basis, I would suggest getting an early style "dead length" closer instead -- these had seperate backplates, and can be adapted to virtually any machine of sufficient size. The largest collet was 5/8" diameter (16mm), and round, hex, square, rectangular and half-round (!) bores could be readily had. Otherwise, watch this space, or keep an eye out for my Dad or someone else posting an answer regarding the MT2 items. What would be really nice is some helpful chap with an original blue card collet box chirping up! Andrew UK ------- Re: Myford Collets Posted by: "Robert Mitchell" rmm200x~xxyahoo.com Date: Thu Nov 15, 2012 2:16 pm ((PST)) Andrew Thank you! My situation is I have a partially populated set of the original Myford collets and cap in a nice wooden box. I would like to add a few that I am missing. Robert Mitchell ------- Re: Myford Collets Posted by: "James Burden" jburdenx~xxgenassist.co.uk Date: Fri Nov 16, 2012 2:26 am ((PST)) Hi, I was in a similar position in that I inherited a few Myford collets and a closer from my late Uncle. I have the main sizes (1/4", 3/8", etc) but wanted to add to the set with various sizes, maybe metric as well. I didn't want to pay the sort of money these are going for on ebay, so was looking for alternative sources and came across the site below -- this chap shows a method for making your own collets -- quite good I thought. I am intending to have a session making up a few blanks that I can then call into service as required. http://www.haythornthwaite.com/Collet%20Myford.htm There is some other interesting bits on his site as well. James ------- Re: Myford Collets Posted by: "Alan Moore" a.j.moorex~xxbtinternet.com Date: Fri Nov 16, 2012 4:10 am ((PST)) On his website Mr Haythornthwaite suggests that Crawford collets are far superior in grip to ER collets. Do the more expert members of the group agree with that statement? My (limited) experience of ER collets is that they grip very well indeed, plus they have the advantages of gripping over a range of sizes. If you try to grip anything other than the exact bore diameter in a Crawford collet I don't think the gripping power is that good. So, my question is -- if the experts were starting from scratch to equip a lathe or milling machine, would they buy Crawford or ER collets? Regards, Alan ------- Re: Myford Collets Posted by: "David Everett" deverett2003x~xxyahoo.co.uk Date: Fri Nov 16, 2012 4:27 am ((PST)) I gave up using Myford and Clarkson style collets some time ago to standardise on ER32 collets. I've never had a problem using them either to hold milling cutters in the vertical mill or material in the lathe. I do, however have a set of imperial as well as metric collets. Some sizes between the systems have very little difference in the bore, but particularly in the smaller sizes it is useful to have both systems because trying to close down a small diameter collet the 1mm tolerance can be quite difficult. A ball bearing collet nut is also a worthwhile investment. Dave The Emerald Isle ------- Re: Myford Collets Posted by: "David Littlewood" davidx~xxdlittlewood.co.uk Date: Fri Nov 16, 2012 6:04 am ((PST)) >So, my question is -- if the experts were starting from scratch to equip >a lathe or milling machine, would they buy Crawford or ER collets? Alan, I have complete sets of Myford collets in imperial and metric, and ER25 and 32 sets, so I guess I am qualified to express an opinion on this. I have never found any problem with ER collets, provided they are properly tightened. It can be misleading, especially with the smaller bores (which tend to be stiffer) in that you think you have tightened the collet in the chuck but you are deluded by the greater stiffness. Having once had a milling cutter slip in the collet, I am now aware of this and have not been caught out again. The ER collets are, as you say, more versatile in the sizes they can grip; there is another advantage, which is that they can be used on any lathe or milling machine for which you can buy, or make, a chuck. There are Myford screw fit ones, backplate ones for use on any lathe, and MT or other taper fittings for use in milling machines. There is no doubt the Myford ones are theoretically better in that they locate directly in the spindle taper and thus have less overhang, but the ER system knocks them into next week for versatility. If I were on a desert island with only one collet system it would have to be the ER one. David PS - I have just seen Dave's comments, and would add that the smaller sizes are available in 0.5 mm increments, which largely solves that problem. David Littlewood ------- Re: Myford Collets Posted by: "NORMAN HEDGE" Norman.Hedgex~xxbtinternet.com Date: Fri Nov 16, 2012 6:17 am ((PST)) I whole heartedly agree with Dave - ER collet chuck + collets and the ballbearing closing nut. (I found my nut on ebay under, not surprisingly, Ball Bearing ER collet nut!) Regards Norman ------- Re: Myford Collets Posted by: "alighazizadeh" alighazizadehx~xxaol.com Date: Fri Nov 16, 2012 7:12 am ((PST)) Hi, I don't know about the grip of the "Myford" or Crawford collets Vs ER but if you tried to grip anything but the exact size you will damage the non-ER collet and probably will break it. As far as the ER collets are concerned, even though they have a 1mm range in each size, I would normally try and keep this to about 0.5 mm for safety and accuracy. Regards, A.G ------- Re: Myford Collets Posted by: "Andrew Curl" methuselahx~xxntlworld.com Date: Fri Nov 16, 2012 1:28 pm ((PST)) If I take your description "crawford collet" as meaning a split collet, the merits of this type vs. ER types will no doubt attract a lot of opinions! I have used both, at work and at home, and I will say that split collets are perfectly satisfactory as long as they are used with stock or tooling that is exactly the correct diameter (they are very specific), whilst ER collets, whilst having more of a range, require a far greater amount of tightening to grip properly -- they are common enough in industry these days, but there is often a bench fixture in which they are done up. With a spanner and mallet. Of the two, I -- personally -- prefer the traditional type for applications where I don't need, or can't use an "Autolock"; industry prefers ERs these days due to cost. Split collets and "spring chucks" have been used for centuries, and continue to be made. There is little wrong with this simple design, but milling cutters will walk out of either type, which is why weldon shanks, whistle notches and autolockers still have their place. Some split collets are plain bored part way through and then threaded for milling cutters (c.f. "BCA" collets) as this causes the cutter to either stay put, or walk into the collet, instead of ruining the work. Everyone has their favorites! Andrew UK ------- Re: Myford Collets Posted by: "Andrew Curl" methuselahx~xxntlworld.com Date: Sun Nov 18, 2012 3:52 am ((PST)) Alan, additional -- I should have mentioned in response to the first question that there is a balance between drawbar/closing cap effort, and the angle of the collet seat. Steel on steel, the angle is generally around 40 degrees inclusive to ensure that the collet is self releasing, but as that angle diminishes, the gripping effort in relation to the drawbar effort goes stratospheric. In other words, MT collets can grip very fiercely indeed without undue torque on the drawbar/closing cap, even if they do need knocking or pulling out to release; it is quite easy to strain the drawbar of a Bridgeport mill endeavouring to tighten an R8 collet to the desired degree. Many machine collets (I'm thinking Deckel, Alexander, Theil, here) were cut with buttress threads for precisely this reason. Andrew ------- Re: Myford Collets Posted by: "Alan Moore" a.j.moorex~xxbtinternet.com Date: Sun Nov 18, 2012 8:16 am ((PST)) Andrew: As far as I can see from the Rego-fix website, the standard included angle for ER collets is 16 degrees. I have never had any problems with removing collets when I needed to. In my vertical mill they fall out as soon as the nut is unscrewed. Taking your earlier point about milling cutters walking in or out of the collet unless they are locked in place with a screw or tongue, I accept that ER collets are vulnerable to this effect. The reason I have never been troubled by it is probably that as a very amateur machinist I am content to remove metal slowly with modest cut rates. However slowly I remove metal, though, it still takes no time at all compared with the thinking, measuring and setting up time. Best wishes, Alan ------- ER collet chuck: taper + drawbar vs. spindle nose thread [myfordlathes] Posted by: "rabslw" robertfryers1x~xxgmail.com Date: Fri Nov 16, 2012 2:11 pm ((PST)) I'm about to get and ER collet chuck for my Ml10. I see two options: chucks which screw onto the spindle nose and ones that fit the spindle morse taper and are retained with a drawbar. Are there good reasons to use one over the other? I've seen uninspiring reviews of the accuracy of some of the spindle nose thread collet chucks, and they stick out further from the headstock and so (I assume) give lower overall stiffness. They also work out slightly more expensve, but not by enough to matter. For these reasons I'm leaning towards the drawbar option but I wanted to see if anyone had any insight before handing over the hard-earnt. Thanks in advance ------- Re: ER collet chuck: taper + drawbar vs. spindle nose thread Posted by: "Robert Mitchell" rmm200x~xxyahoo.com Date: Fri Nov 16, 2012 2:21 pm ((PST)) Only reason I could see to use a collet chuck would be if I had long stock to pass through the headstock. I really like the accuracy and simplicity of a drawbar. ------- Re: ER collet chuck: taper + drawbar vs. spindle nose thread Posted by: "David Littlewood" davidx~xxdlittlewood.co.uk Date: Fri Nov 16, 2012 3:08 pm ((PST)) Drawbar types are virtually essential for use with milling cutters. The chuck type (whether screwed onto a Myford spindle nose or fitted to a backplate) are highly desirable when you want to work on material stock which may need to occupy the spindle bore. Ideally you need both types. You can correct the slight run out of the latter type (if yours is unfortunate enough to show it) with a very light skim to the taper. David Littlewood ------- Re: ER collet chuck: taper + drawbar vs. spindle nose thread Posted by: "Ken Strauss" ken.straussx~xxgmail.com Date: Fri Nov 16, 2012 4:28 pm ((PST)) I'm unsure why you feel that the drawbar type are essential for use with a milling cutter. A chuck with a MT2 for the spindle will probably have as much overhang as the type that screws on the spindle and is not necessarily more accurate. I've also read many reports of inaccurate screw-on-the-spindle units. Another choice is the make your own chuck that screws on the nose and purchase an ER nut which would be somewhat challenging to make at home. I use ER collets for many things. I have an ER16 that mounts to a back plate and allows stock through the spindle, a Schaublin ER25 with an MT2 shank and a homebrew ER40 that screws onto the spindle nose and allows smaller stock through the spindle. I use ER11 for a homebrew tailstock attached sensitive drill. For the mill I use an ER40 with an R8 shank and drawbar. ------- Re: ER collet chuck: taper + drawbar vs. spindle nose thread Posted by: "David Littlewood" davidx~xxdlittlewood.co.uk Date: Fri Nov 16, 2012 5:20 pm ((PST)) >I'm unsure why you feel that the drawbar type are essential for use with >a milling cutter. Sorry, I was assuming it was for use in a milling machine; I agree that a screw-on ER collet chuck should be equally secure on a Myford-nose lathe. I have had a milling machine for so long I forgot a lot of people still have to do milling in a lathe! David Littlewood ------- Re: ER collet chuck: taper + drawbar vs. spindle nose thread Posted by: "David Everett" deverett2003x~xxyahoo.co.uk Date: Sat Nov 17, 2012 3:54 am ((PST)) One way of mounting ER collets has not been discussed. On the milling machine, where generally it is only cutters that are used in the collets, a simple drawbar chuck is adequate. However, on the lathe, where allowing the maximum diameter and an unlimited length to pass through the collet is advantageous, a backplate mounting of the collet chuck has much to recommend it. Basically, a lathe chuck backplate is screwed to the spindle nose and a register turned in situ to match the appropriate collet chuck, and the two parts are then bolted together. This system ensures maximum concentricity of the chuck, but nothing will overcome any inherent inaccuracy of a collet. Doing it this way does require two chucks, but the convenience and accuracy outweigh the modest extra cost. If spot-on accuracy of a workpiece is required, the 4 jaw chuck takes a lot of beating. I also said in another post that a ballbearing collet nut is a worthwhile investment. Dave The Emerald Isle ------- Re: ER collet chuck: taper + drawbar vs. spindle nose thread Posted by: "Barry Kneller" bkba09515x~xxblueyonder.co.uk Date: Sat Nov 17, 2012 4:00 am ((PST)) I've just purchased a set of ER40 collets, plus an R8 collet holder for the mill, and an MT2 collet holder for the lathe. Whilst the collets and holders themselves are satisfactory and within stated tolerances, the MT2 taper is hopelessly incorrect, I wish now that I'd chosen either the back plate type or the Myford Nose thread type. I could send the MT2 holder back to CTC tools, but with no guarantee the the replacement will be any better I think I'll have to find someone with a cylindrical grinder to true up the taper -- unless of course anyone has a better solution? I should add that the taper in the lathe mandrel is spot on and when I blued the taper on the holder and fitted it into the mandrel, the only blue transferred to the mandrel was at the extreme outer end. ------- Re: ER collet chuck: taper + drawbar vs. spindle nose thread Posted by: "Alan Moore" a.j.moorex~xxbtinternet.com Date: Sat Nov 17, 2012 9:05 am ((PST)) Barry: Is the taper wrong or is there a ridge on the outer end which is preventing the holder from going home properly? It would be interesting to mike the shaft at various places along its length to check the taper angle. Regards, Alan ------- Re: ER collet chuck: taper + drawbar vs. spindle nose thread Posted by: "Barry Kneller" bkba09515x~xxblueyonder.co.uk Date: Sat Nov 17, 2012 11:59 am ((PST)) There's no detectable ridges and the whole thing looks perfect, I'll try some measurements as suggested. ------- Re: ER collet chuck: taper + drawbar vs. spindle nose thread Posted by: "Ken Strauss" ken.straussx~xxgmail.com Date: Sat Nov 17, 2012 9:28 am ((PST)) Is the MT2 shank hardened? If not you could chuck a piece in your normal chuck, turn it down to a size that will fit into your largest collet and then mount the new collet chuck backwards. Then take a skim on the MT end. ------- Re: ER collet chuck: taper + drawbar vs. spindle nose thread Posted by: "Kevin" tadpolex~xxbtinternet.com Date: Sat Nov 17, 2012 1:26 pm ((PST)) I bought one of the backplate mounting ER chucks. It is secured to the backplate by three cap head screws in counterbored holes, a generous clearance size. I chucked a true piece of steel in a collet and used a DTI to get it all set true as I tightened the screws and adjusted the location of the chuck with a plastic headed hammer. Works perfectly for me, allows bar stock to pass up to the full bore of the lathe mandrel. There is no register on the backplate. Be aware that ER collets have their limitations, particularly if you buy the popular cheap sets. Not all ER collets hold with the same accuracy. Also you really shouldn't expect the same accuracy from an ER collet compressed to the limit of its range as you would get from one of the various "dead size" collets. But the system works fine for me. With ever more discriminating measuring instruments you can always spend time worrying about a few microns eccentricity, just as you can agonise over the quoted runout specs of different manufacturers offerings. If I was running a manufacturing shop and really needed bang-on collets I'd probably go for something other than the ER system, or else buy a more tightly specified (and _much_ more expensive) ER set than the one I have. But for the stuff I do in my hobby shop the system I have serves me well. Incidentally, on the lathe my collets have only ever been used to hold the round workpiece, without any problems. I don't have any experience with using them to hold milling cutters. Kevin ------- Re: ER collet chuck: taper + drawbar vs. spindle nose thread Posted by: "DONALD EDWARDS" edward.darcyx~xxbtinternet.com Date: Sat Nov 17, 2012 4:50 pm ((PST)) Hi Kevin, I've been reading the posts on ER chucks with interest as I'm contemplating a set for the lathe. You mention there is no register on the supplied backplate, will you please confirm whether the chuck body is also without a register? I'd also be very interested to hear what level of TIR you get with your set? Currently I use a 'Grip-Tru' for accurate work, but it does need setting up for each different diameter of stock where 'tenths' are involved. Cheers, Don Edwards ------- Re: ER collet chuck: taper + drawbar vs. spindle nose thread Posted by: "David Everett" deverett2003x~xxyahoo.co.uk Date: Sun Nov 18, 2012 3:43 am ((PST)) Don: Have a look at Arc Euro Trade chucks, sold with a register, both ER25 and 32 sizes. http://www.arceurotrade.co.uk/Catalogue/Collets/ER-Lathe-Collet-Chucks Half way down the page. If you have a chuck without a register, you could fit it to a backplate with capscrews and when you are happy with the accuracy, fit two dowels through chuck flange and backplate, thereby maintaining your accuracy. Dave The Emerald Isle ------- Holding a mill in the headstock [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: "dws" dwshelfx~xxyahoo.com Date: Sat Dec 22, 2012 10:32 am ((PST)) While using a lathe as a mill is far from ideal, when it's the only mill one has, that's the one to use. Generally, the lathe mill will be constrained by lack of rigidity. Small, shallow cuts are indicated. Holding the end mill in the headstock is done with either a collet or an end mill holder. Lathe collets are traditionally end-drawn, with outside threads to allow through-the-headstock stock. For an Atlas, or other MT3 sized headstock, one can expect to use 3C sized collets. They require both a sleeve, and a tube-type closer, threaded inside by lathe (there are no taps). Such closers can be bought on Ebay for $25 to $150, depending on how elaborate they are. In theory they can be constructed at home, but this would require some real dedication for someone with very limited tools. 3C collets are sold both new and used. The necessary sleeve can also be purchased. This setup is nice for both milling and turning, but is pricey. MT3 collets can be used, with some differences. One, you can't feed stock through them and out the back end of the headstock. Two, you CAN construct a closer at home, because all it really takes is a proper length of 3/8-16 screw with a decent washer setup. MT3 collets are sold new. For milling, you really only need a few common sizes, 1/4, 3/8, and 1/2 would get you a long ways, since those are common end mill shank sizes. Third, you don't need a sleeve. I suggest a modern front closing ER32 collet system. The collet chuck screws on to the 1 1/2-8 threads on the headstock. Then, the collets can be changed and tightened in the front. You also get through-the-headstock clearance for turning. This system will set you back a whole lot less than the 3C's, but more than the MT3 solution. There are both larger and smaller sensible solutions. ER40 is larger, up to 1", and good for some turning problems in the 1" zone, although you can't get 1" through the headstock. An ER25 goes up to 5/8", as big as any end mill you might sensibly contemplate using. Then, there are end mill holders. MT3 end mill holders are readily available, in common sizes. Like MT3 collets, they close nicely with a simple 3/8-16 draw bolt. The holder grips the end mill more firmly than does the collet (which might not come in to play given the modest forces involved in lathe-milling). They are marginally less precise, but for most of us, this effect is part of an overall precision equation, and far from dominant. As a cost effective solution, three end mill holders sure make sense to me. dw ------- Re: Holding a mill in the headstock Posted by: "wa5cabx~xxcs.com" Date: Sat Dec 22, 2012 1:02 pm ((PST)) DW, Excellent writeup. I'll add that the collets originally supplied with the Atlas or Craftsman 10" and 12" lathes were 3AT. The 3AT and 3C collets are almost the same. Both were made to hold diameters from 1/64" through 1/2" in 1/64" increments. The 3C is a little longer than the 3AT, 2.688" vs 2.313". Threads are almost the same, .640"-26 vs .637"-26. he closer sleeves are not interchangable. But if the length is slightly adjustable, the 3C drawtube will work on 3AT collets. However, the 3AT and 3C collets were actually made to hold workpieces. The 3MT collets or 3MT milling cutter holders with 3/8"-16 drawbar are probably a better choice for milling. And if you were to purchase every- thing new, at least, the cheapest solution. Atlas sold, besides the drawbar, a 1/2" set screw type cutter holder with a set of reducing bushings. And you can buy, as DW said, 3MT to single diameter set screw types tapped for drawbar. But one thing you may run into is that 3MT Weldon or set screw type cutter holders are also made in the tanged style, which for some reason are more common in a lot of catalogs. You should avoid them like the proverbial plague. When, not if, one comes loose in the spindle you won't like the results. If you were to find several tanged types cheap or free, you can cut off the tang and drill and tap them for drawbar. But don't be tempted to go ahead and use them as is until you get a round tuit. Anyway, the main advantage of the set screw cutter holder over any type collet is that once you lock down the set screw, you can remove the holder from the spindle to do another operation (like drilling) and then reinstall it and get back to within a couple of thou of where the cutter was before. With any collet, you probably won't. Whatever you use, you need to always use a spindle thread protector screwed onto the spindle nose whenever you remove a chuck for anything other than mounting another chuck or collet closer. Not particularly useful for holding milling cutters but you can also buy front mounted 5C collet closers to fit the Atlas. The 5C collets are made to hold workpieces with diameters up to 1-1/16". On an Atlas, up to 3/4" diameter workpieces can be passed through the spindle. Robert D. ------- Atlas 10F collets help [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: julian.p.67x~xxgmail.com Date: Mon Sep 9, 2013 4:41 pm ((PDT)) I have been trying to do some research about getting setup with collets for my atlas 10F and am either confusing myself or the information is vague. I am pretty sure that these machines require "3AT" collets. Correct? If so, how dissimilar are 3C collets, and what would be involved in making/buying collet adaptor/chucks for the 3C collets to be used on the 10F? Or would that even be necessary? The only reason I am apparently fixated on 3C vs. any other collet system is that I got a set of hardinge 3C collets for free and they seem to be great candidates for my lathe with little or no adaptation involved. So, is it worth exploring first of all? Secondly, has anyone had any experience with using 3C collets on these machines? Thirdly, what was your experience with getting them to work on the 10f? Thanks in advance, Julian ------- Re: Atlas 10F collets help Posted by: "Eggleston Lance" wheezer606x~xxverizon.net Date: Mon Sep 9, 2013 4:56 pm ((PDT)) I have done the reverse. South Bend 9 specifies 3C collets, with a 3 MT to 3C spindle nose adapter (SNA). South Bend makes one SNA with a collar and Atlas makes one with no collar. I have used the Atlas Draw tube and SNA in the SBL 9 spindle. Works fine. So, with all the righteousness of ignorance, I suggest that a 3MT to 3C SNA could be bought, a wheel draw tube can be made and you can use your 3C collets in your 3MT spindle nose. Getting the length of the draw tube and the taper on the wheel end is important, but not brain surgery. lance ------- Re: Atlas 10F collets help Posted by: jerdalx~xxsbcglobal.net jtiers Date: Mon Sep 9, 2013 6:44 pm ((PDT)) 3C work great in a 3MT taper spindle. All you need is the right length drawtube. The good part is because all the Atlas owners "know" that they are no good for Atlas (MUST use 3AT) they are a bunch cheaper. I have them in a Logan..... allee same-same with 3MT spindle. JT ------ Re: Atlas 10F collets help Posted by: julian.p.67x~xxgmail.com Date: Mon Sep 9, 2013 5:25 pm ((PDT)) I'm assuming the 3MT to 3C adapter would prevent running material through the spindle? Is this the case with any collet setup on the lathes anyway? Or is it just something that can't be worked around if one wishes to use 3C on these machines? ------- Re: Atlas 10F collets help Posted by: jerdalx~xxsbcglobal.net jtiers Date: Mon Sep 9, 2013 6:51 pm ((PDT)) Not at all.... you can do everything with 3C that you can with 3AT, and cheaper at that. Drawtube allows passing a long rod through, up to max collet diameter, about 0.5" for either 3C or 3AT. The exact length, and threading is a bit different for the 3AT, Atlas wanted you back for parts that only THEY had..... but I made a complete setup for the Logan, and it has all the function of any collet setup. The only difference on the Atlas would be the length of the drawtube from bearing to collet threads. http://smg.photobucket.com/user/jstanley/media/tools1.jpg.html The three items in the middle are the drawtube, collet closer, and thread protector/closer remover. One and a half evenings work to make the lot. JT ------- Re: Atlas 10F collets help Posted by: "Eggleston Lance" wheezer606x~xxverizon.net Date: Mon Sep 9, 2013 7:39 pm ((PDT)) Not at all. The SNA is hollow 3C taper. Insert SNA into 3MT spindle, insert 3C collet rotate to lock, insert draw tube and tighten up. Go. I have the same setup on my SBL9, Dalton 7-1/4, HF 7, B&L 10. Works fine. lance ------- Re: Atlas 10F collets help Posted by: wa5cabx~xxcs.com wa5cab Date: Tue Sep 10, 2013 12:57 pm ((PDT)) 09/10/2013, jerdalx~xxsbcglobal.net writes: > It is SO ODD that you would say that one is self-releasing and the > other is not..... That is so different from my experience...... > The angles are so much the same that it is hard to understand that idea. > Or you must never have used a 3C, because mine are definitely > self-releasing, as much as any collet is, (leaving aside Morse taper, > or B&S collets, which are designed to hold). > I suppose we each have our own biases and oddities, which may explain > your odd opinion, but there is definitely no "self-holding" tendency > of a 3C beyond what is common to 3C, 5C, 3AT, 4NS, etc, etc... JT Sorry, but if I hadn't experienced it, I wouldn't have written it. And the taper angles are definitely not the same. 3AT is 15 deg. 3C is 12 deg. According to Hardinge drawings that I have. Robert Downs - Houston wa5cab dot com (Web Store) MVPA 9480 ------- Re: Atlas 10F collets help Posted by: wa5cabx~xxcs.com wa5cab Date: Tue Sep 10, 2013 1:07 pm ((PDT)) > I am pretty sure that these machines require "3AT" collets. Correct? No, they don't require 3AT collets. The spindle taper is 3MT and closer adaptors to fit 3MT are available for both 3AT and 3C. The other thing you will have to get right is the draw tube length (which can usually be adjusted by using a different length thrust washer. The straight part of the 3C collet is a bit longer than that of the 3AT (roughly 3/8"). ------- Re: Atlas 10F collets help Posted by: "Richard Marchi" rfmarchix~xxaol.com Date: Tue Sep 10, 2013 3:08 pm ((PDT)) Since this is a collet thread, can I ask a slightly off-topic question? Does anyone have the length of the drawbar for # 3 MT collets on an Atlas 10" headstock. I have a set of collets and a handwheel and want to make a drawbar. The dimension from the shoulder on the left side of the spindle to the end of the thread would be ideal. I had this dimension, once, but seem to have misplaced it. Any help will be appreciated. Dick ------- Re: Atlas 10F collets help Posted by: wa5cabx~xxcs.com wa5cab Date: Tue Sep 10, 2013 5:08 pm ((PDT)) Dick, the Atlas factory 3/8-16 drawbar which fits both 10" and 12" machines has 9-1/2" to 9-9/16" of 3/8" dia. rod from the tip of the threads to the face of the handwheel hub. Then there is a thrust washer/ spacer free to spin on the rod that sits against the handwheel hub and the left end of the spindle. The factory one is actually tapered on both ends but I have found in practice that a stepped or shouldered spacer works better as the rod will stay centered when loose. In any case, the effective length of the spacer is 1-1/4" whichever way you make it. Leaving 8-1/4" of exposed 3/8" dia. rod. The threads on the end are about 3/4" long. This drawbar works with both 3MT cutter holders and 3MT collets (I've used it for both). Robert Downs - Houston ------- Re: Atlas 10F collets help Posted by: julian.p.67x~xxgmail.com Date: Tue Sep 10, 2013 5:19 pm ((PDT)) So, what you are saying is that you use 3C collets naked with a drawbar in the 3MT spindle? If so, doesn't this setup encourage runout by not aligning the back end of the collet in a proper adapter? ------- Re: Atlas 10F collets help Posted by: julian.p.67x~xxgmail.com Date: Tue Sep 10, 2013 5:25 pm ((PDT)) Thank you all for the info so far. You have given me a good base to start from. What I am wondering now is: How difficult and practical would it be to machine an accurate enough 3MT to 3C adapter? I'm looking at them online and they seem ridiculously priced, given what they are, or am I missing something that I should be accounting for in the price? ------- Re: Atlas 10F collets help Posted by: jerdalx~xxsbcglobal.net jtiers Date: Tue Sep 10, 2013 6:09 pm ((PDT)) Very practical to do. And capable of being MORE accurate than the usual toleranced factory item. All it takes is care, and once you have done it, you will know how to do it even better if you ever decide to make a new one. Accuracy is very much a "nothing ventured, nothing gained" activity. You get better by doing your best repeatedly on different projects. The pic of the set that I put up the link to, drawtube, closer, and thread protector, shows parts I made myself. ALL made in two evenings. Runout is quite good, I don't recall the number any more (it's been years), but well under 0.001". Small enough that I didn't worry about it. I machined the OUTSIDE of the closer first, then set it in the spindle, using an extra sacrificial piece at the back with a drawbar in it to hold it in. Then the inside was machined to dimension, and tested with collets. That ensured all irregularities were compensated as well as possible. When finished, it was extracted and the sacrificial back part cut off to dimension so that the collet thread is exposed for the drawbar. The last trick is to mark the location it was in when machined, and always put it back that way. That makes it as accurate as the original machining, compensating for any oddities about your individual spindle, something a "store boughten", or abused "ebay bought" unit can never do. The closer has the MT3 OD, not hard to do using the spindle as a model, and the compound set to the angle for a "zero-zero" on the dial indicator when moving along the taper. The ID is a cylinder to fit the collet OD closely but not in any way a wringing fit. Then the closer angle is set. You *can* use the compound dial for that, I did it with angle blocks. I don't know how much better that is.... the angle is approximate anyway due to the movement when the collet closes, which slightly steepens the angle. Ideally, it would be exact when correctly closed. I expect a little steeper is better, it avoids having the collet hit only at the back of the taper as it closes. Drawtube was a piece of water pipe, with a better quality steel nose hard-soldered into the tube for the threads. I measured that with a collet in place, for a bearing sleeve which I added afterwards, along with the hand wheel. JT ------- Re: Atlas 10F collets help Posted by: jerdalx~xxsbcglobal.net jtiers Date: Tue Sep 10, 2013 6:21 pm ((PDT)) September 10, 2013 wa5cabx~xxcs.com wrote: > Sorry, but if I hadn't experienced it, I wouldn't have written it. > And the taper angles are definitely not the same. 3AT is 15 deg. > 3C is 12 deg. According to Hardinge drawings that I have. I assumed you DID have the problem, you are not particularly given to telling tall tales, in my experience here...... ;-) But I feel pretty sure it is a defect in your setup. The 24 degree included angle vs 30 deg included angle is hardly enough to produce a difference in "jamming" , or in fact ANY jamming at all in the first place. Here is a link to a comparison of the collets, along with collet closer dimensions for both 3AT and 3C. Mr Hoffman is a pretty reliable source, careful and thorough: http://www.conradhoffman.com/Collet%20Adapters.PDF You may ask yourself if there is a credible argument for a self-holding action in 3C collets (when not defective), based on a 6 degree difference in included taper angle, amounting to a 20% net change. I would argue there is not, and that if you have to pound yours out hard enough to hurt your hand, there is a problem. My 2MT and 3MT collets and tapers don't need heavy pounding, let alone the 3C. JT ------- Re: Atlas 10F collets help Posted by: wa5cabx~xxcs.com wa5cab Date: Tue Sep 10, 2013 8:15 pm ((PDT)) I don't know why I had the problem with the 3C either. But it was consistant across a full set of collets. One wouldn't normally have occassion to use every collet in a set in a single evening. But I had discovered that the three smallest collets had tremendous angular runout and consequentially checked all of them at one sitting. And all required banging on the handwheel as you would expect to have to do with 2MT or 3MT. I couldn't see anything wrong with the finish on either the collets or the adaptor. But I did do the whole series of tests with one adaptor. Perhaps it is at fault. Robert Downs - Houston ------- Re: Atlas 10F collets help Posted by: jerdalx~xxsbcglobal.net jtiers Date: Tue Sep 10, 2013 9:01 pm ((PDT)) An alignment problem with the drawtube can cause that, if it cocks the collets a bit, maybe only jamming when under tension. Or the tapered closer section not being accurately concentric with the body recess. If anything acts to cock the collet, it will cause trouble, there normally isn't much clearance in the closer over the body of the collets. No telling from here. But it shouldn't be anything typical of 3C. Either 3AT or 3C should work about the same with properly fitted closers and drawtubes. The taper of the very popular 5C is even less, 20 degrees included angle. They seem to work pretty well, though! JT ------- Collet Systems ? [myfordlathes] Posted by: clankennedy2004x~xxyahoo.co.uk Date: Mon Sep 23, 2013 9:17 am ((PDT)) Hey Guys, Im wondering what the benefits are between the different types of collet systems! ER25 versus MA verses I dunno. There seems to be more than a few types available and am wondering which are the 'best'. Yes I know there will be pros / cons versus price paid but I'm interested in your opinions/thoughts none the less! ------- Re: Collet Systems ? Posted by: "David Everett" deverett2003x~xxyahoo.co.uk Date: Mon Sep 23, 2013 12:00 pm ((PDT)) One question to ask you: why do you want a collet system? Unless you spend mega bucks, contrary to popular myth, you are unlikely to get zero run out with a collet. A 4 jaw independent chuck will get you at least as close a run out as a collet. Do you have a milling machine? If so, it would be most economical to be able to use the same collet system in both machines. If you are a lathe only person with no intention of getting a milling machine, you could consider the Myford collet system. However, they tend to be quite expensive. The problem with these collets is that they will only accept material of the nominal size of the collet. (R8 and C style collets suffer from the same problem). Put the wrong size material in the collet and you risk straining and therefore rendering it unable to hold true in due course. Let us assume you have or will be getting a milling machine. The choice then is much more straightforward: ER32 are the ones to go for. Originally they were designed to hold milling tools, but they do hold round bar perfectly adequately, and you can put any length bar through the collet. They have a holding range between 3 and 20mm and each collet has a holding range of +/- 1mm. i.e. a collet will hold any diameter between, say, 8 and 9mm. ER collet chucks are relatively cheap and so are collets. CTC tools in Hong Kong are a reputable company: their prices are reasonable and the quality is very good for the price. Delivery doesn't take too long, either. http://www.ctctools.biz/servlet/StoreFront There are two styles of chuck for the lathe: the direct fitting and the backplate style. Some people say they have had good results from the direct fitting chucks, but to be absolutely certain of the best concentricity, the backplate type is the one to go for. Chronos do chuck 4" machined backplates and Arc do the collet chucks. Dave The Emerald Isle ------- Re: Collet Systems ? Posted by: "Andrew Curl" methuselahx~xxntlworld.com Date: Tue Sep 24, 2013 6:25 am ((PDT)) Clankennedy, these days there are essentially two types on offer, the traditional split collet, whether it be a draw-in or dead length type, coming in all sorts of shapes and sizes, or the more modern ER series. The split ones are made for accuracy at a specific size, and are extremely accurate, the ERs sacrifice some of that accuracy for a small range of diameters. The latter also require far more torque to tighten. I bought a range of nominally sized collets from the outset that will cater for all my needs. This doesn't mean I was particularly affleunt, but buying two or three collets at the end of each month, the collection soon built up fairly painlessly. Myford supplied draw-in MT2 collets for years, but my preference is for their dead-length type, which utilised their collet closer mechanism. The choice is yours, but after using dead-lengths -and- ERs in industry, I wasn't too troubled about not having ERs at home. Incidentally, I find a name is nice, for when I reply to people. Andrew UK ------- Re: Collet Systems ? Posted by: "David Littlewood" davidx~xxdlittlewood.co.uk Date: Wed Sep 25, 2013 11:09 am ((PDT)) David Everett writes >One question to ask you: why do you want a collet system? Unless you >spend mega bucks, contrary to popular myth, you are unlikely to get zero >run out with a collet. A 4 jaw independent chuck will get you at least >as close a run out as a collet. I use collets a lot (more than chucks) as I do a lot of small-scale work. The advantages are (a) that collets are less likely to mark work (especially brass or other softer materials) than a 3-jaw S/C chuck; (b) if you need to get up close and personal with the work (e.g. to use a file or graver) they are far less dangerous to the fingers; and (c) they do hold work more concentrically than a 3-jaw, and more repeatably. I agree that ER collets are the best choice in terms of flexibility and convenience. David Littlewood ------- Re: Collet Systems ? Posted by: "redgrouse75x~xxbtinternet.com" Date: Sun Sep 29, 2013 1:03 pm ((PDT)) Hi Clankennedy, I have a full set of the original Myford No.2 morse collets and find them very useful but you are limited to 1/2" and as Andrew says they are size specific i.e. the range is limited to a few thou either way. Last year I bought a set of ER32 plus holder/mount from RDG [HBM brand] and have to say I'm very pleased with them -- better than expected and the chuck runs "bob on" barely a flicker on a one tenth clock. If you go down the ER route seriously consider size 32 rather than size 25; the only down side is that the small sizes are more difficult to close. This can be improved by purchasing a ball bearing closer which cuts the friction down. Good luck with your deliberations. John ------- Solid collet [TAIGTOOLS] Posted by: "Dave Pinella" dpinellax~xxcinci.rr.com Date: Mon Jun 2, 2014 4:06 pm ((PDT)) Just a question. I bought a set of collets for my a Taig mill. One is solid. What might it be used for? Just trying to learn... Dave P ------- Re: Solid collet Posted by: "cArliTo" smashcarlitox~xxgmail.com carlosakin Date: Mon Jun 2, 2014 4:14 pm ((PDT)) Use it for anything you like! I have a bunch of these, one recent use was to drill & tap it 4-40 and use it to turn down the heads on some allen cap screws. ------- Atlas 10" Collet System [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: shopman1942x~xxgmail.com hankus1942 Date: Fri Sep 19, 2014 4:35 pm ((PDT)) I recently picked up an Atlas 10x36 lathe. Along with the lathe came a host of accessories. One of those items was a collet chuck, and a small variety of collet from 3/16" to 1/2". I cannot find any markings on the chuck, nor any of the collets, except for sizes. I've included a picture of one of the collets along with the chuck. The wrench looks hand made. ------- Re: Atlas 10" Collet System Posted by: "Michael Fagan" woodworker88x~xxgmail.com Date: Fri Sep 19, 2014 5:58 pm ((PDT)) That would appear to be a #1 Pratt and Whitney http://www.shophardinge.com/product.aspx?partNo=25170000000000 For everyone in the group, my favorite pictorial guide to rare collets: http://www.shophardinge.com/categories.aspx?catid=126 ------- effort to use a 3at hand collet closer [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: mark2382x~xxhotmail.com markjohanhatch Date: Thu Oct 30, 2014 9:59 pm ((PDT)) Hi, How much effort should it take to close a 3at collet using a hand closer? Some of my collets take a lot of effort while others are easier. Doesn't seem to be related to the size of the collet. Thanks Mark ------- Re: effort to use a 3at hand collet closer Posted by: wa5cabx~xxcs.com wa5cab Date: Thu Oct 30, 2014 10:18 pm ((PDT)) Mark, AFAIK, they should all take about the same amount of force to close, as behind the head, they should all have the same about 17/32" ID. Meaning the same thickness of steel to flex. I have noticed in the batches of collets I've bought in acquiring a complete set by 64ths that over time, they tend to accumulate what's probably a mix of dirt and oil in the three slots that run about 3/4 of the length of each collet. Check that you can see through the full length of each slot. If not, stick something like a thin pattern 6" scale through each slot starting at the threaded end and pull/slide it out the front a couple of times and then blow or wash out the ID. Also, screw each stiff one into the threaded end of the closer tube and make sure there is no problem with the threads. Wire brush all of the threads. Then put a little SAE 20 oil on the threads and the taper, run it around with your fingers, and wipe off the excess. Also inspect and if necessary clean out the anti-rotate slot. Robert Downs - Houston wa5cab dot com (Web Store) MVPA 9480 ------- Re: effort to use a 3at hand collet closer Posted by: "Jerrold Tiers" jerdalx~xxsbcglobal.net jtiers Date: Fri Oct 31, 2014 5:25 am ((PDT)) It will vary quite a bit if some of the collets have been "spread" by abuse in the past. Many used collets will have that problem, having been forced to take an oversized part, or having otherwise been stretched out. Then also, not all manufacturers use the same tight standards for threads etc, so some off-brand collets may be simply made wrong. Be sure they ARE 3AT. Forcing a collet with a close but not exact thread match in may damage the drawbar. IIRC, there is at least one other collet with a similar size and thread, although it is not the same length nor angle. ------- Re: effort to use a 3at hand collet closer Posted by: mark2382x~xxhotmail.com markjohanhatch Date: Fri Oct 31, 2014 8:49 am ((PDT)) Thanks! Good suggestions. I will clean out the slots, oil and recheck. The heritage of the collets and closer are pretty much unknown. Some do look like they have been abused (tooling marks on the head). So I could easily imagine that someone tried to make a smaller one work for a larger rod. I was a little worried that the closer insert was not a 3at (e.g. SB 3c). It is a Logan closer and as far as I can tell, they used 3at collets like atlas (of course no markings on the insert). And a couple of the collets that are marked 3at do close nicely. Mark ------- Re: effort to use a 3at hand collet closer Posted by: wa5cabx~xxcs.com wa5cab Date: Fri Oct 31, 2014 1:36 pm ((PDT)) Mark, The other common (perhaps more common today) collet that is very similar to the 3AT is the 3C. Threads are close enough to the same that in most cases, either will screw into the closer tube, depending upon how new the collet and tube is. 3AT 0.637"-26 3C 0.640"-26 However, there the similarity diverges. LOA: 3AT 2.360" 3C 2.783" Diameter of back bearing: 3AT 0.687" 3C 0.650" Taper at big end TOTAL/ONE SIDE: 3AT 30/15 deg. 3C 24/12 deg. So a 3C will go into a 3AT closer adapter but not vice versa. To identify the closer adapter, measure the ID at the small end. Should be about 0.001" larger than the back bearing diameter. Note that the third decimal place varies between the several drawings that I have. Most 3AT and 3C collets have the type engraved in the head along with size and maker. But I do have a few that don't. Easiest way to ID them is to take a known 3AT collet and compare it to the unknown one. I also found one 3AT marked collet that was 1/4" shorter than it should have been. Robert & Susan Downs - Houston wa5cab dot com (Web Store) MVPA 9480 ------- Re: effort to use a 3at hand collet closer Posted by: "Doc" n8as1x~xxaol.com docn8as Date: Fri Oct 31, 2014 2:36 pm ((PDT)) FWIW IIRC I had a set of #1? that fit the 3AT cept different taper... maybe 1H. best wishes doc ------- Re: effort to use a 3at hand collet closer Posted by: wa5cabx~xxcs.com wa5cab Date: Fri Oct 31, 2014 3:58 pm ((PDT)) I have another list compiled by UNKNOWN that lists 1A as having the same body diameter and thread as the 3C. But the length is intermediate between what appears to be the standards for 3AT and 3C. This chart starts at 2H (no 1H). And out of 69 different Inch series collets, it only shows the angle for one. Robert & Susan Downs - Houston wa5cab dot com (Web Store) MVPA 9480 ------- WW Collet accessory for Taig [TAIGTOOLS] Posted by: "The Boorums" smallifex~xxmyfairpoint.net pboorum Date: Thu Dec 4, 2014 6:53 pm ((PST)) Hi, I have made a WW Collet accessory for Taig many times. Using Taig's blank arbor for the collets works well. I put a 45 degree bevel on the end to provide clearance for using gravers. Also drill a hole in the arbor for a Tommy bar so you can remove it easily. You have to cut off the blank arbor the right length to accommodate the drawbar. For a draw bar I turn down a Sherline draw bar and usually include the Sherline set of five WW collets with the order. Turn the drawbar down to fit in the Taig spindle hole and adjust the length of the aluminum knob so the collets have enough threads engaged in the draw bar. Put a brass or copper washer between the draw bar knob and the lathe spindle. Hope this helps. Pete Pete & Pam Boorum Smaller Than Life www.smallerthanlife.com 79 Sebbins Pond Drive Bedford, NH 03110 ------- Re: WW Collet accessory for Taig Posted by: "Alex Holden" alexx~xxlinuxhacker.org alex_linuxhacker Date: Thu Dec 4, 2014 11:33 pm ((PST)) What is the advantage of WW collets over the standard Taig collets? Is it that they are more accurate or available in a wider range of sizes? Alex Holden http://www.holdenconcertinas.com/ ------- Re: WW Collet accessory for Taig Posted by: "Misc Clark" clark.cone4x~xxgmail.com clark_cone Date: Fri Dec 5, 2014 9:10 am ((PST)) ...also, what is the "draw bar" used for? Clark Cone ------- Re: WW Collet accessory for Taig Posted by: "Tony Jeffree" tonyx~xxjeffree.co.uk tonyjeffree Date: Fri Dec 5, 2014 9:22 am ((PST)) The draw bar draws the collet into the taper at the end of the spindle, thus causing it to grip the piece of bar stock that you are attempting to machine. WW collets come in a wide variety of shapes & sizes and are much used by watch/clock makers. They are generally made to high precision. The standard Taig collets have a much more limited range of sizes, although you can always make your own from blank collets. A better (than either WW or Taig collets) collet solution for the Taig is, in my opinion, to use a Taig mill headstock that has an ER16 collet nose - ER collets are designed for a wide gripping range, are relatively cheap and easy to obtain, and will work in both the mill and the lathe if you go this route. If you don't want to be bothered swapping headstocks, you can get backplate mounted ER collet holders. Regards, Tony ------- Re: WW Collet accessory for Taig Posted by: Donx~xxCampbell-Gemstones.com campgems Date: Fri Dec 5, 2014 11:48 am ((PST)) They are considerably more accurate than the old Taig lathe collets. Also, they come in sizes from 0.1mm up to around 5mm in 0.1 mm increments. You are limited in through the head stock size to about 4 to 4.25 mm due to the id of the threaded portion. The accuracy is improved in that the draw bar holds the tail of the collet on the center line of the spindle. Some years back, I was producing my Monster Dops for aligning gemstone faceting heads to the laps. Most of the faceting machines used a 1/4" diameter dop, so I made a dop center from Drill rod threaded 1/2-28 and rough cut a 2" disk of 1/4" aluminum. I used some locktite on the threads and screwed the disk to the rod. I then mounted the dop in the taig 1/4" collet and turned the OD and faced off the disk and counter faced it so there was just a 1/8" ring to set flat on a lap when adjusting the faceting head. I discovered that taig collets would not give a very accurate alignment, at least not as accurate as I had hoped for. It was very easy to cock the collet in the head slightly resulting to a dop face that was not square to the shank. There are a number of tools that mount in the WW or 8MM heads in addition to the collets. Centers, arbors for small grinding wheels, slitting saw arbors, scroll chucks both 3 jaw and bezel jaws, face plates, and probably more that I don't own or know about. On the draw bar, in addition to being a collet closer, is also aligns the collet in the head by acting as a long addition to the collet. It should fit the spindle bore with just enough clearance to turn easily but not have any slop. While an 8mm draw bar will also fit the WW collets, the 8mm collets and draw bar are too tight a fit to a WW spindle. There is about 0.0025" difference in body diameter between the two sizes. My collection turned out to be a mix of WW and 8mm collets. All fit my old jewelers lathe, but the 8MM collets would not fit the Taig WW spindle. My solution was to first punch out the indexing pin, then run an 8mm drill through the headstock. Then replace the index pin. This last is optional. The Taig ww draw bar is interesting. It is a sloppy fit in the head stock but registers in the small end of the stepped pulley. So, if the step pulley small end isn't accurate to the head stock axis, you will try and cock the WW or 8mm collet also. Even if it is off a little, say 0.002", that will only result in a 0.024 degree angle. With the taig collets, I'm guessing an angle of more like 0.2 degrees was more likely. Not all WW and or 8mm collets have the same grip surface. I have a 8mm #23 collet, (2.3mm) that has about 8mm of grip length, (roughly 3.5 D) surface where the WW collet, brand name Victor, only has 2.8mm of grip length. (1.2 D) The smaller the stock that you are turning, the more need for a WW or 8MM collet setup. those collets go down to 0.1 mm Nominal size. The ER16 collet goes down to 1 mm and the Taig collet will not grip below 3mm / 1/8". It all depends on what work you are doing. Through the head stock is limited to 5/16" in the stock Taig head. 3/8" - 8 MM in the ER16 head and apx 4mm on WW and 8mm head. Don ------- What collet ? [myfordlathes] Posted by: harry.wilkesx~xxsky.com harry.wilkesx~xxsky.com Date: Mon Dec 8, 2014 7:43 am ((PST)) With Christmas looming and the pressie money rolls in what to spend it on, when I got my Myford super 7 it came with three Myford collets and the collet nose piece so should I add to these or opt for a different type ? So if I was thinking of another type what would members recommend chuck on a 2MT or a chuck which screws onto the spindle and which type ER etc. Would appreciate thoughts/comments Cheers H ------- Re: What collet ? Posted by: "Kevin" tadpolex~xxbtinternet.com klokenz Date: Mon Dec 8, 2014 8:36 am ((PST)) Hi Harry. I went for ER collets with a chuck that screws onto the spindle. This gives the maximum clearance to allow long pieces to pass into the hole of the spindle. Since getting these I haven't used the Myford style collets at all. That said, it hasn't been that often that I've actually had a long piece residing inside the spindle, so to some extent I suppose it depends on what sort of work you do, though we all want to be able to tackle everything I suppose! In actual fact I bought the type of collet chuck which has a flange for mounting onto a backplate, and by having suitable clearance holes on one component I was able to assemble it "spot on". I only did this because of supply shortage of the one piece chucks at the time. The advantage of ER collets (stands for "extended range") is that each one has a fairly large working range, typically 1 mm, whereas the Myford style really only work satisfactorily on one specific size of stock each. Then there's the cost.... Purists will say that the common or garden ER collets aren't as accurate as the narrow range types (Myford or 5C and others), and of course they're quite right. There's a reason why they are relatively cheap. You can buy higher spec ER collets if need be, though I've found the normal cooking grade to be perfectly satisfactory. No doubt I'll get a ball-bearing closing nut one day, though for now the ordinary one works for me. It really is nice to have a full set of collets! Something else to consider .... it might be worthwhile getting a set that covers larger sizes than will fit into the spindle hole, so that you can hold short lengths of larger stock. Kevin, England (happy with mine from Arc Euro) ------- Re: What collet ? Posted by: "Don Edwards" wandleside3x~xxbtinternet.com Date: Mon Dec 8, 2014 8:48 am ((PST)) Good afternoon Harry, Thoughts? When Myford's first introduced their dead-size collet system it was the cat's whiskers for use in any MT2 machine mandrel socket, providing that the socket was within a couple of tenths in its concentricity, (not always the case) but the introduction of such systems as the ER one you mention is an improvement for those of us who are not in the mass production world and need to hold a variety of sizes in our lathes for second operation work. The ability of a multi-split chuck to accommodate a small range of sizes around it's nominal size is an enormous benefit and if you only have a small investment in existing Myford collets, it would seem that such as the ER system is the way to go. It also depends upon the needs you may have for the use of collets. For occasional use where a second operation on a part-turned component is needed the ER system would give you more flexibility, but I personally have managed over the years to accommodate such need with the use of a "GripTru" chuck which can be set up with a little effort to run within a couple of tenth's. It all boils down to whether you foresee a regular use for collets or merely an occasional use and I would personally put their purchase behind other lathe accessories such as a small rotary table or dividing head suitable for the vertical slide, but I do have the "GripTru" and the current price of that would buy quite a lot of collets. As to your query re an ER collet holder mounted on an MT2 arbor or one mounted on the mandrel nosepiece, I would suggest the latter is the better approach, giving a larger through-bore i.e 5/8" where the workpiece needs to pass into the mandrel bore. Like you, I look forward to reading the views of other members of the group. Don Edwards ------- Re: What collet ? Posted by: "Martin Schenker" martinschenkerx~xxt-online.de Date: Mon Dec 8, 2014 8:50 am ((PST)) Biggest advantage of the screw-on type is that you can feed a bar through the collets (up to the spindle diameter). I have the ER25 system on my ML7 but would opt for the now also available ER32 holder. This gives a larger range. A holder with a MT2 shaft blocks the bore...‚ nuff said. Best, Martin ------- Re: What collet ? Posted by: "David Everett" deverett2003x~xxyahoo.co.uk deverett2003 Date: Mon Dec 8, 2014 3:13 pm ((PST)) Another advantage of using ER collets is that if you have a milling machine, the collets can do dual service in mill and lathe. There are 'Collet Blocks' - 4 sided and 6 sided that can be quite useful for quick indexing in the mill. (Available from Arc Euro). These latter are also available in C5 style collets, but then we get back to the argument over which style of collet is best. ER32 is my choice - and they are now cheap enough to get Metric as well as Imperial sizes (if you use old measurement cutters or stock). Dave The Emerald Isle ------- Re: What collet ? Posted by: "P ROBINSON" ejandptrx~xxbtinternet.com philandjorobbo Date: Tue Dec 9, 2014 2:16 am ((PST)) H, I have to go along with the ER collet recommendation. I have 2 sets, ER25 and ER32. ER25 mostly on the Super 7 with a collet holder that screws onto the Myford mandrel nose, thus allowing thin bar to pass through the spindle, and ER32 with a 3MT holder for the milling machine. The ER32 also fit a parallel shank adaptor for the Clarkson T&C grinder. I do have a set of Myford collets, but they live in the back of a drawer now, and only have occasional use. The ER collets enable me to use both Imperial and Metric sized milling cutters because of the slight size variation they permit beyond their nominal capacity. Phil Lancs UK ------- Re: What collet ? Posted by: "David Littlewood" davidx~xxdlittlewood.co.uk dmlittlewood Date: Tue Dec 9, 2014 3:47 am ((PST)) I'm curious why you think it would be necessary to have imperial as well as metric ER collet sets. I have used my metric ER25 set for over 25 years, both on a milling machine and a lathe (I also have an ER32 set, more recent and less used) and never had any problem using it with both metric and imperial sized milling cutters. Do you (or others) have any experiences which suggest it's worth having both? BTW, I completely agree that ER collets are the way to go. I have an extensive set of Myford 2MT collets in both metric and imperial, but I find I don't really use them much now. David Littlewood ------- Re: What collet ? Posted by: "Ken Strauss" ken.straussx~xxgmail.com kstrauss7 Date: Tue Dec 9, 2014 6:44 am ((PST)) Some common imperial sizes such as 1/8-inch (0.125 or 3.175mm), 1/4-inch (0.250 or 8.35mm) and 3/4-inch (0.750 or 19.05mm) are near the limits of the gripping range of the appropriate metric collet. This makes it a pain to tighten the nut sufficiently and probably reduces the centering accuracy. ------- Re: Truing a collet chuck [myfordlathes] Posted by: "norrissheldonx~xxymail.com" Date: Mon Jan 12, 2015 3:33 am ((PST)) I'm in the process of fitting a collet chuck on my ML7. I've turned down the myford backplate and fitted the chuck, but the chuck itself is eccentric to the tune of 0.0025. I machined the backplate on the mandrel, and if I remove it, then replace it, there is no measurable inaccuracy, either on the outer part, or on the register I machined, so I presume the discrepancy is in the actual collet chuck. As I see it, the chuck body needs to move sideways by 0.00125 to true the chuck up. I am thinking of setting it in the four jaw, but for such a tiny amount, would an application of a small file do the job? Any sensible suggestions chaps? Norris South Wales. ------- Re: Truing a collet chuck Posted by: "David Everett" deverett2003x~xxyahoo.co.uk deverett2003 Date: Mon Jan 12, 2015 4:22 am ((PST)) Norris: I had the same problem as you. My solution was to turn down the register of the backplate so that there was a small amount of freedom (about the same as the eccentricity) between the collet chuck and backplate. Putting a piece of 1/2" Precision Ground Mild Steel in a collet -- but Silver Steel would do, I manoeuvred the chuck (with the 3 securing bolts slightly slackened) until there was zero runout on my DTI when it was close to the chuck. Took the bar out and replaced it a couple of times as a check. When I was happy with the result, the bolts were fully tightened and another check carried out. Everything OK, I then fitted a 1/4" dowel to secure the position of the chuck to the backplate. Good enough for the girls we go out with! If you have an 'elephant's foot' for your DTI, use that in preference to the usual round tip unless of course you are using a Verdict type with the adjustable tip. There is a possibility that Silver Steel may not be 100% circular although I have never noticed any problems, but PGMS will be perfectly circular. For belt and braces, you might consider two or even 3 dowels, but I haven't noticed any problems with just the one. This will true up the chuck for the particular collet used for the test; other collets may still produce some runout, depending on the quality of collets. If in doubt, use the collet that you expect to to use most frequently. Dave The Emerald Isle ------- Re: Truing a collet chuck Posted by: "norrissheldonx~xxymail.com" Date: Mon Jan 12, 2015 4:34 am ((PST)) David, thanks for the reply, that was an interesting post and seems similar to what I want to do. Don't have any pgms or silver steel atm, I'll have to remedy that forthwith. Many thanks ------- Re: Truing a collet chuck Posted by: "Peter Dobson" peterdx~xxmodelrail.net peter317217 Date: Mon Jan 12, 2015 4:25 am ((PST)) Are you measuring the body of the collet chuck? It is possible that the centre of the collet chuck is not concentric with the outside of the body -- unlikely ...but This can be checked by using a known concentric bar in a suitable collet in the chuck. Clock the bar NOT the chuck. If still out then.. I assume that the chuck is attached to the backplate with mounting screws. In which case you can untighten the screws and then use the same technique as you would with a four jaw and when you are happy then re-tighten the fixing screws. Again set the chuck by clocking the known concentric bar in its collet. If that doesn't make sense than I am sure someone will explain the error of my ways. regards Peter Dobson ------- Re: Truing a collet chuck Posted by: "norrissheldonx~xxymail.com" Date: Mon Jan 12, 2015 4:43 am ((PST)) Peter, thanks for replying. After fitting the chuck I spun it up to speed on the middle gear range and straight away could see the chuck wasn't true. I slid a piece of 11mm SS bar into a collet and tried it and the tool told me the bar was eccentric. I turned the bar half way round and tried again, and got a scratch opposite the first, so it wasn't the bar. I then rotated the collet and checked and got the same result. I nipped up the bar and by taking light cuts was able to gradually extend the contact area between tool and bar until it was almost all the way around the bar. I then measured the diameter, and I had lost 0.0025,according to my micrometer. I am presuming that moving half of this will put me back in true. Regards, Norris South Wales. ------- Re: Truing a collet chuck Posted by: "Peter Dobson" peterdx~xxmodelrail.net peter317217 Date: Mon Jan 12, 2015 5:09 am ((PST)) I am sure you will get better results with a bar that is concentric because it was made that way. If you try and make it so on your own machine you are at the mercy of the errors of the machine however small. As I understand it you measure the 'truth' of the item by utilising a dial indicator or very similar device. A concentric bar in a four jaw will never (unless lucky beyond national lottery odds) measure as being true at the first attempt. In your case it is the chuck that needs centring. Since however it is not safe to assume that the outside of the chuck is concentric, you need to mount your concentric bar in a suitable collet. You still have the possibility of the collet(s) not being true in the chuck. That possibility depends to a certain extent on the price you paid. Did the chuck and collets come with a QA certificate of accuracy? So many possibilities for error...helps make life interesting!!!! Also keeps the little grey cells exercised. Peter D ------- Re: "Ordinary" 2MT collets in a Super 7 [myfordlathes] Posted by: "Kevin" tadpolex~xxbtinternet.com klokenz Date: Wed Jan 28, 2015 9:22 am ((PST)) On 24/01/2015, arthur.jones.mmdx~xxbtinternet.com wrote: > Hi, My name's Arthur; I'm a fairly new owner of a Super 7 and am trying to rediscover a very patchy set of skills I had 25-30 years ago (I had a very limited amount of machine tool training but never served an apprenticeship). < Hi Arthur. The genuine Myford collets are a delight to use. I haven't used the non-Myford trpe that you mention, but I do use a variety of bits and pieces on 2MT arbors in the headstock nose socket. I can offer two thoughts. I find that the important thing is to not use too much force on the draw-bar. I fit the arbor into the socket by "throwing" it in, that is fairly forcefully by hand. Then I engage the draw-bar, and just nip it up snug. So, in my case, the draw-bar isn't really pulling the item very hard, it's more a case of it being there to stop things from coming adrift. To release I remove the drawbar and insert a drive bar, which in my case is a straight length of aluminium alloy rod about half an inch diameter (so not all that heavy). Using this, by hand, always releases items from the socket with a few not too energetic blows. That's driving the rod by hand, not using a hammer. The other thought is that there was something published fairly recently, last few months, in either ME or MEW, which concerned a workshop made device that had two opposing wedges ("folding wedges") operated by a draw screw to release socket mounted items. My usage doesn't tend to be very severe, but there again Morse tapers grip very firmly indeed. They are generally regarded as self-locking, in contrast to other systems like R8 which are self-releasing and dependent on the draw-bar. Having said that, once I realised how useful collets can be, I moved away from the Myford system (I'll probably put them up for sale eventually) and bought the ER ("extended range") system. With a chuck that screws onto the nose you can pass material up to the full diameter of the spindle bore. Very satisfied with it. Kevin, England ------- Re: New toy! [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: ksierensx~xxmsn.com ksierens Date: Tue Mar 31, 2015 10:33 am ((PDT)) Ah a fellow Michigander! I live in Clinton Township. I was hoping to find someone else with one for a few parts, like the poser quill feed and the belt cover. I have a Benchmaster Mill, so I plan on using it more for dedicated drilling and boring. ------- Re: New toy! Posted by: "Dan Dobbs" k.dandobbsx~xxatt.net Date: Tue Mar 31, 2015 10:36 am ((PDT)) Very nice. They are supposed to be rigid as all get out. There is one in PA as I mentioned. My buddy is looking at it. Sometimes thing follow him home and into my garage. ------- Re: New toy! Posted by: jmartin957x~xxaol.com jmartin957 Date: Tue Mar 31, 2015 12:11 pm ((PDT)) No, but I do have a Vernon, which is very much like it. Hope you are getting it with collets, as they can be real trouble to find. The Linleys used an LB collet, which looks like a 3C but without the drawbar threads -- it's held in by a closing nut. The later ones, IIRC, used a larger collet. If yours does use the LB, which my Vernon does, you'll find that you can also occasionally find B&S 00B collets, which I believe are identical. Very occasionally -- I think I've seen two offered in the last couple of years on eBay. Joe Bergamo at Plaza Machinery does have some LBs but he said not to even ask about the price -- I think he's saving them to sell with a machine. Hardinge will make them for you, at $200+ per collet. All is not lost though, as the 00B collets are the same as the B&S 00 collets, which are plentiful and cheap. The only difference that I can measure is that the 00s have a "high hat" or stepped flat top, where the 00Bs and the LBs have a beveled top. I'm now in the process of making a new closing nut to fit the 00s. I wouldn't use it for more than light milling. Nice that it never has to be trammed. John ------- Re: New toy! Posted by: ksierensx~xxmsn.com ksierens Date: Tue Mar 31, 2015 12:14 pm ((PDT)) Thanks John, it does have 3/8" and 1/2" LB collets and a 1/2" 3AT collet, which I have read will work also. I am planning on using it for boring and drilling only since I already have a nice Benchmaster vertical mill. I am hoping to find a quill power feed for it, but I am also thinking about making one for it if I don't find one. It is also missing the belt guard. ------- 5C collets on a lathe [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: kbx~xxmuziker.org kbjorling Date: Wed Nov 4, 2015 7:31 pm ((PST)) Friends, Others here have strongly recommended 5C collets, urging me to skip over 3C's as ultimately being too limited (which they certainly are, altho' OK for what they can do...). I have a chance to get a set of good 5C's used and I'm looking into how to mount them on my Atlas/Craftsman lathe (12", w/ 1 1/2 X 8 threaded spindle, of course). I'm aware of getting a 5C chuck and fitting it to a back plate, but I saw some ready-made chucks that have - I THINK - the 1 1/2 X 8 thread built in as part of a single unit. Do any of you have experience with such things? Is this a reasonably good system? Are there means of fine-tuning the centering of them, or is one stuck with what one gets with one of these things? I'm assuming that of course the best possible results are to fit a chuck to the machine it's to be used on, starting with a new mounting plate or an old one with enough meat on it to fit. I know nothing about the collet closers that use a lever action. If there's more I need to know before jumping into this, feel free to educate me. (I hope I'm expressing my question clearly enough - terminology sometimes fails me with these things...) My thanks for any advice! Kurt B ------- Re: 5C collets on a lathe Posted by: old_toolmakerx~xxyahoo.com old_toolmaker Date: Thu Nov 5, 2015 6:13 am ((PST)) I would not reccomend using a 5C collet chuck as yoir first choice. Instead, I would use a morse taper collet sleeve to fit inside the headstock spindle. This places the collet inside the headstock spindle and closer to the spindle bearing. This is much more rigid. Also you can use a collet closer draw tube instead of a lever operated closer. Very simple and more cost effective unless you are using it for production work. Dick ------- Re: 5C collets on a lathe Posted by: "Richard Marchi" rfmarchix~xxaol.com marchirichard Date: Thu Nov 5, 2015 6:17 am ((PST)) I happened to have a fairly complete set of 5 C collets, which I use with a collet indexer and center on my milling machine. So, I decided to buy a 5 C collet closer for my 10" Atlas. I'm still in the process of setting it up, though. The advantage for 5 C's is that there are lots of them around at reasonable prices, including hex, square, soft, etc. They are available up to 1 1/16", although you're limited to 3/4" through the spindle. One down side is that the collet closer hangs off the spindle quite a bit and is heavy. If I didn't already have a set, I'd probably go for ER's. Their ability to hold a wider range of diameters is a nice feature and the closer is a smaller hunk of metal. Until I get around to finishing the 5 C adapter plate, I'm OK with a small set of MT collets I picked up cheap on EBay. Richard Marchi 600 Water Street, SW NBU8-2 Gangplank Marina Slip B-22 Washington, DC 20024 ------- Re: 5C collets on a lathe Posted by: "Jerrold Tiers" jerdalx~xxsbcglobal.net jtiers Date: Thu Nov 5, 2015 7:19 am ((PST)) While I agree on the theory, that is not an option with the Atlas. It cannot take anything larger than a 3C or 3AT collet in the spindle. Some machines WILL take a 5C. My Rivett 608 takes a 5C directly in the spindle, no closer sleeve needed. But the Atlas is too small to do that. The option of a separate chuck offers so many added error sources that it really does almost make the use of a collet a "collet in name only". The "automatic concentricity" advantage does not exist, you are dependent on the various parts of the chuck all working together to be concentric. Can happen with a well made chuck, of course. Then also, you have added "stickout" in front of the actual spindle. A collet in the spindle or in a closer sleeve, is much closer to the nose bearing and thus more rigidly held. But, if you want to pay a premium for a collet chuck for some other reason, they will function. Just not as well as a collet in the spindle without the multi-piece chuck. Jerry ------- Re: 5C collets on a lathe Posted by: Charliex~xxTheGallos.com charlie11364 Date: Thu Nov 5, 2015 7:20 am ((PST)) Hi Kurt, OK - I'll tell you my story RE Collets on the Atlas. I first made a home made 5C collet closer, but rarely used it. It used a draw tube, and of course, that reduced the thru spindle capacity of the lathe. Then one day I found a real 3AT (Atlas lathes were designed for 3AT, not 3C) Atlas/Royal LEVER collet closer, and bought that. I've done a LOT of work with it over the years. Full set of round collets by 1/64ths, some hex and square. But again, seriously reduces the thru spindle of the lathe to 1/2". Now if you are working 1/2" and smaller, an absolutely wonderful thing, you get to work right up on the spindle. The problem? I have a regular client who's job takes 5/8" round stock. I knew that Royal had made a front mount LEVER collet closer, but had discontinued them around the time I got into the hobby, and they were RARE. I did NOT want one of the key type closers you can get from Bison et-al right now because that job is production. As in make 100 of these. With a lever closer, you can advance the stock without turning off the lathe (and even change some work on piece work - caution, your hand is going to be touching the spinning spindle). Anyway, took me 5-10 years to find one, but I did, in perfect shape. I mounted that (had to drill two holes in the headstock casting) but I love it. Once it is adjusted for the stock, it is great. Only time it is OFF the lathe is when I need to work with castings or materials that won't FIT. For NON production work, a handwheel or key type chuck is better, as it is easier to make up for slight variations in size -- remember that the gripping range on a collet is +0.00/-.005 or so. You have to use the right size for the job. If you are NOT doing production, I'd actually look into one of the ER40 collet mounts that are made. They have a way wider gripping range, are probably easier to change, and work. So the answer really comes down to, what do you want/need to do? BTW, if you ARE doing production, the modern answer to the front mount lever closer I have is the pneumatic closer. Collet opens/closes with applied air. If you don't need the accuracy, an pneumatic chuck also works.(Don't forget soft jaws to bore to size for the job.) Yes - I've actually PAID for my lathe and its tooling with side work. ------- Re: 5C collets on a lathe Posted by: wa5cabx~xxcs.com wa5cab Date: Thu Nov 5, 2015 11:56 am ((PST)) Kurt, The spindle bore is 25/32" dia. and the rated largest diameter that will pass through the spindle unimpeded is 3/4". In order to use a collet, you need two things, first a tapered surface that matches the taper on the collet and into which you pull or push (depending upon the collet design) the collet in order to close it on the work piece. Second, you need a means with which to pull or push the collet. The simplest (and cheapest) collet type for the 9" to 12" Atlas is the 3MT. The spindle nose already has a 3MT taper and you use a (usually 3/8"-16) threaded drawbar inserted through the spindle from the left end to pull the collet into the taper and close it. 3MT collets are commonly used for things like milling cutters and could be used on short workpieces. Drawbacks to the 3MT collets are that you cannot pass a long piece of stock through them (because the drawbar is in the way) and AFAIK the collets are only made in 1/16" increments. The next two choices are 3AT (native to the Atlas) or 3C collets. For either of them, you insert a closer adapter into the 3MT spindle taper, insert the collet into the adapter, and insert a hollow draw tube through the spindle from the left end. Attached to the left end of the draw tube is either a hand wheel and centering bushing (least expensive) or lever and bearing assembly. The right end of the draw tube is internally threaded to match the external threads on either type collet. You then slide the workpiece or stock through the collet and into or through the tube and tighten (close) the collet. The maximum diameter workpiece for 3AT and 3C is 1/2" round, 7/16" hex and 11/32" square. The male threads on the end of the two collet types are close enough to the same (0.637-26 and 0.640-26) that the same draw tube can be used for both, although the tube length must be adjusted. The 3MT closer adapters are not interchangable. For anything larger, you must use some type of chuck or closer that mounts to the spindle threads. Dollar wise, the next choice might be the European ER collets. They look somewhat like the tool holder collets on a Dremel or most routers. The closer screws onto the spindle nose and has a special nut that screws onto it to compress and close the collets (like the Dremel). ER collets come in several size ranges (ER-25, ER-32, etc.) with different minimum and maximum diameters available and do allow the workpiece or stock to extend into or through the spindle. The closer does stick out past the end of the spindle threads but not as far as the 5C chucks or closers. The only other drawback is that you must stop the lathe and use a wrench on the special nut to change or remove workpieces. They can, as all of the others can, be used to hold milling cutters. Their other possible advantage over other collet types is that both ends of the collet are compressed by the closer and each collet has a large enough diameter range that a full set of each type covers all possible diameters within its complete range.The other types discussed are pretty much limited to one specific diameter. Finally, the 5C collet has a maximum diameter of 1-1/16" round, 29/32" hex and 3/4" square and are available in 1/64th" increments plus soft unbored (usually called "emergency collets). They are pretty available on the used market and tend to be relatively inexpensive. For 5C collets, there are or have been available two closer types. Royal once made a front-mounted lever type closer. It screwed onto the spindle nose with the lever vertical (above the center line). The lower (fixed) end of the lever was attached to a clevis that was clamped to the bed. The lever moved an internally threaded ring that the collet screwed into. Advantage over the other method is that as with the rear lever type, it is possible to release the workpiece and move or change it without stopping the spindle. Work pieces up to 3/4" diameter may be passed through the spindle. The other method is a collet chuck. These screw onto the spindle just as any other chuck does. One type has an external concentric wheel (similar to that on a Ridgid pipe threader) to close or open the collet. The other is closed and opened by using the typical T-handle chuck wrench or key. Although somewhat lighter, both stick out about as far as the typical 3-jaw chuck. Most are mounted on a separate backing plate which may be slightly adjustable to zero out runout, and workpieces up to 3/4" diameter may be passed through the spindle. Like the other non-lever closer types, the spindle must be stopped to release the collet. There are three or four dozen other collet types, some of which could be adapted to an Atlas. But availability is relatively poor and the required closer will probably have to be custom made. Robert Downs - Houston wa5cab dot com (Web Store) MVPA 9480 ------- Re: 5C collets on a lathe Posted by: "Dan and Marlene Coleman" dan_marlenex~xxcharter.net danlincol Date: Fri Nov 6, 2015 7:00 am ((PST)) I use ER40 collets regularly on my 12". I can use the same collets, but with an R8 mount, on my mill drill. Dan Coleman ------- Re: 5C collets on a lathe Posted by: "Kurt Bjorling" kbx~xxmuziker.org kbjorling Date: Fri Nov 6, 2015 6:52 am ((PST)) Gentlemen, Thanks for the information and advice. I haven't even finished reading all the details, but collectively you have already saved me a bit of money, time and aggravation. I'll followup later, but for now, gotta run! Thank you all!! Kurt B ------- Re: 5C collets on a lathe Posted by: "Bob Butcher" bbutcher80x~xxcomcast.net bbutcher85 Date: Sat Nov 7, 2015 9:08 am ((PST)) I use the 3AT collets for parts up to 1/2 inch diameter, but often need to work on larger diameter stock. I made a 5C adapter that screws onto my spindle with a screw on cap to tighten the collet, and it works OK. I do not have a means to adjust run-out but that usually is not a big problem (no measurement has been made yet). If I were to go with the ER collets, which is a good choice, I would purchase a 3MT ER-40 collet chuck. These are available on ebay (Shars brand) for about $65, and will fit into your existing headstock (3MT). If a friction fit is not adequate a 1/2 inch draw-bar can be used to secure the chuck. This chuck has a threaded set screw that can be used to set a depth stop, which limits the size material you can run all the way through the chuck. I would then purchase a set of metric collets in 1mm steps since the ER-40 collets will fit a range of nominal to 1mm undersize. A chinese made 25 pc set ranging from 2mm through 26mm on ebay is available for about $170. This would allow you to work on any size stock from 1mm (0.04 in) to 26mm (1.024 in). Other options are available including a 15 pc set with MT3 collet chuck for about $170 that covers the range 1/8 inch through 1 inch in 1/16th increments. This set also allows a 1/2-13 draw-bar, and likely restricts the through diameter. I would check with the seller and see if you can fit all sizes in the 1/8 to 1 inch range since 1/16th inch may exceed the clamping range of any one collet, if that is a concern. The specification for metric collets in 1mm (.04 inch). These collet chucks should allow you to work fairly close to the spindle, should achieve good concentricity (low run-out), and will achieve close to the diameter range of 5C collets. I have not seen Hex or square collets in the ER40 series but someone may sell them. Smaller size ER collets and chucks are also available with the 3MT taper if you can live with smaller diameter stock, and the cost will be lower. I would install a "thread protector" on the spindle before inserting the 3MT chuck to make it easier to remove the chuck without having to hammer it out. I always do this for my 3AT collet set that I use for small parts. Bob Butcher ------- Re: 5C collets on a lathe Posted by: wa5cabx~xxcs.com wa5cab Date: Sat Nov 7, 2015 11:57 am ((PST)) The only problem with any 3MT based tooling used in the headstock is that it requires a drawbar (standard size is 3/8"-16, not 1/2"-13) so you cannot pass any work through the spindle. The style with a 1-1/2"-8 threaded collet chuck allows you to pass anything up to 3/4" diameter through the spindle (assuming that your lathe is a 9", 10" or 12"). On the subject of whether or not a drawbar is necessary on 3MT adapters, I learned the hard way that any operation that does not keep the cutter under continuous compression while cutting will (not may) eventually come loose. And Murphy's Law ensures that it will usually happen shortly before you finish the final cut. This includes any and all milling operations and any turning operations with interrupted cuts. Although I started my "collection" long enough ago that they weren't an option, and have full sets of 2MT, 3MT, 3AT and 5C collets, I have nothing against ER collets. If I were starting over today I might go that way, but ER collets are also readily available in normal inch sizes. A set in inch decimal increments (usually about 0.039" range per collet) will give you full coverage over whatever range the ER type you pick can cover. Note that a fractional marked ER collet set (in 1/16" increments) doesn't quite give a full uninterrupted coverage. For full coverage, you need the decimal marked set, which has more collets in it. Robert Downs - Houston wa5cab dot com (Web Store) MVPA 9480 ------- Re: 5C collets on a lathe Posted by: "brokenwrench1 ." brokenwrenchx~xxgmail.com brokewrench Date: Sat Nov 7, 2015 12:36 pm ((PST)) When I was in tech school, one of the projects was to make a collet adapter for a 4 jaw chuck out of square stock. They are slow to use and only as accurate your ability to center the adapter in the chuck with a Last Word indicator. ------- Re: 5C collets on a lathe Posted by: "William R Meyers" wmrmeyersx~xxsbcglobal.net oldstudentmsgt Date: Sat Nov 7, 2015 6:00 pm ((PST)) Jan at Tallgrass Tools has a ER32 collet to Atlas 1-1/2-8 thread adapter. The kit is $37, the completed adapter is $160. ER-32 Collet Kit Supplier of tool and accessory kits for home shop machinists. He's a member of the local metalworking & model engineering group, and I've met him and seen some of his work. Spiffy stuff! I'm planning on buying the kit fairly soon, as I already have a MT3-mounted ER32 chuck and the short set of collets that came with it. I'm not cutting my T-nut by hand right now because I'm tired from working OT today, but may get up the gumption to do it before I crash and burn, probably sometime soon. Got an AXA clone from Amazon in the mail today. Best looking tool from China I've seen yet. http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B002YPDQ4G?psc=1&redirect=true&re f_=oh_aui_detailpage_o00_s00 Bill in OKC William R. Meyers, MSgt, USAF(Ret.) ------- Re: 5C collets on a lathe Posted by: kbx~xxmuziker.org kbjorling Date: Thu Nov 19, 2015 8:05 am ((PST)) I apologize for the long delay in responding to this. Thanks to all who chimed in with advice. I tried to keep my initial message short, but should have explained that I am already equipped with a set of 3C collets, in 64ths (80-90% of them old Hardinge-branded) plus two MT3 collets (new, Chinese-made) for sizes larger than 3C will handle (5/8" and 3/4"). So: it's not that I'm not equipped with collets of any kind, but: 1. I foresee the day when I'll want to thru-feed stock that is larger than the 3C collets will allow, and, 2. I recall at least one correspondent here suggesting to me (about a year ago) that I should bother with 3C and go directly to a 5C or some other larger/better system, implying to me that 3Cs are somehow a lower-quality substitute for a 'real' collet system. Thus, my main question concerned the 5C collet chucks that I see here and there: systems that screw directly onto the 1.5" x 8tpi lathe spindle (Sorry, Robert, but '1-1/2-8' just has too many hyphens for my literalist sensibilities - I hope this rendering is clearer!) The chucks I refer to do not have a lever: they appear to have a rotating collar to draw and tighten the collet. (Maybe similar ones are made that use a key, but I have not seen such.) I wanted to know whether these are reliable and accurate enough -- especially if I get one that's already mounted to a back plate as opposed to cutting a back plate on my lathe to fit the chuck. Some of you addressed this to some extent -- thank you -- but part of my question remains not-clearly-answered to me: Is there another way of mounting 5C collets to an Atlas 12 (or 10) that is more accurate, more reliable, than one of these chucks? I get the impression from some at least one or two of the replies that 5Cs are too big for such a spindle and that any system for mounting them is going to be a bit of a compromise, whereas collets that fit into the MT3 bore, whether directly or via an adapter, are more accurate (meaning that my existing 3Cs are already as good as I can do). Kurt B. ------- Re: 5C collets on a lathe Posted by: old_toolmakerx~xxyahoo.com old_toolmaker Date: Thu Nov 19, 2015 11:19 am ((PST)) As far as rigidity goes the 3C collets or MT3 are your best bet because they are contained within the spindle and front bearing. If you OK with sacrificing some rigidity then the spindle mount 5C is fine although expensive. ------- Re: 5C collets on a lathe Posted by: "Bill Williams" BWMSBLDR1x~xxGmail.com bwmsbldr Date: Thu Nov 19, 2015 11:29 am ((PST)) I have "Made Do" with a homemade 5-C adaptor for years. It threads onto the spindle nose and the collet closer pulls on the collet stop threads inside the collet. Doesn't let me feed through the spindle but has been accurate and quick. I keep toying with a design for a front lever closed adaptor but haven't gotten there yet! Spent all of my money on a 6", 6-jaw, Polish made, Bison, "AdjustaTrue" chuck. Other than weighing about 40 pounds and taking about 6 years to devise a backplate (Thanks LMS!) it is perfect. I chuck up a piston pin in it and just dial in the chuck until it doesn't wiggle the indicator. Bill in Boulder ------- Re: 5C collets on a lathe Posted by: "Jerrold Tiers" jerdalx~xxsbcglobal.net jtiers Date: Thu Nov 19, 2015 1:47 pm ((PST)) As far as inherent accuracy, both the 3C and 5C belong to the same series of industrial workholding devices. They will be as accurate as the manufacturer made them AND AS ACCURATE AS THE HOLDING SYSTEM. If you have a good closer, you are probably as good as it gets with the 3C. I made my own closer, machining it in-place,and marked it so I could put it back in the same location. That is as good as I can reasonably get. The other lathe has the closer ground into the spindle nose, for 5C, and is going to be as good as it will ever get. With a good 5C collet holder, you are probably as accurate as having the collets fit the spindle directly, BUT you still suffer from the large stick-out in comparison to an in-spindle mount, or a closer-type mount. The chucks are expensive, too. And you have to deal with whatever means are used to close the collet. Then also, unless the lathe has a big spindle hole, and Atlas does NOT, you lose some of the neat features, like the ability to hold long workpieces, or to sequentially make identical pieces from a long bar, advancing it each time instead of loading pre-cut pieces. Of course if the lathe had a big spindle hole, it would also either have a built-in 5C receiver, or use a closer in the spindle. So the 5C collet holder is a bit of a dead-end device. In some ways, using a regular chuck might be easier, if you are going to machine all surfaces. Of course, with the 5C you may be able to handle the other end of a part that was already machined on one end, by fitting the finished end into the collet. Assuming that the finished diameter was too large for other collets, a 5C could come in handy there. I think that if I were going to get an external holder, I'd buy an ER type. Covers the range with fewer collets, and they hold better and straighter. But even they are not cheap. Jerry ------- Re: 5C collets on a lathe Posted by: wa5cabx~xxcs.com wa5cab Date: Thu Nov 19, 2015 4:25 pm ((PST)) As you already have it, use the 3C for parts up to 1/2" dia. or small hex or square. There isn't anything better, regardless of what someone else may have said or implied. Equal to the 3C would be Hardinge 1A or Atlas 3AT. I have a set of the latter. All three have the same or essentially the same pulling thread (0.640"-26 on the 1AT and 3C and 0.6=37"-26 on the 3AT) and vary a little in LOA. pilot diameter and nose angle. The closer adapter for one will not work on the other two and the draw tube has to be adjusted slightly to switch types. The scroll and key type of spindle nose mounted chuck is probably the most common type. The Chinese made ones used to run $300 to $250 on eBay. They are up about $100 for one with a finished 1-1/2"-8 back plate. The Bison ones are $600-$700. One or two vendors make the type with the external handwheel but they are typically $1000 or more. I haven't seen for sale a push-type like those used with ER collets. The front-mounted lever operated type are rare. On any given day, you can probably find several Chinese made scroll types and one or two Bisons. Properly made, either the lever type (hard to find) or the scroll type 5C chuck is as good as it gets. The hooker is properly made. A couple of years ago, already having a full set of 5C collets bought years ago, I bought a Chinese made scroll and key type already finished to fit the Atlas. It was NOT the cheapest one available and its accuracy out of the box was less than 0.001" TIR. But the runout on the OD of the nicely finished nose is terrible. Something like a 32nd! So you pays yer money and you takes yer chances. One of these days I'll probably fix that and have one that is part shiny, part black. But regardless of what collet type or chuck type you use, 3/4" is the diameter limit for long parts or stock. Robert Downs - Houston wa5cab dot com (Web Store) MVPA 9480 ------- Re: 5C collets on a lathe Posted by: wa5cabx~xxcs.com wa5cab Date: Thu Nov 19, 2015 9:13 pm ((PST)) In a message dated 11/19/2015 > I have a set of collets in red plastic boxes that I assumed came with my mill ( mill n lathe bought as a set w oodles of stuff) but had zero idea how to use. I'm now thinking that, at least on my mill, they are just used with a drawbar and pulled right into the same taper that the chucks I have use? Can I use them on my lathe the same way? Remove the chuck and pull them into the spindles taper with a drawbar? Or do I need some form of chuck? Whitney < Whit, As I recall, you have a 12x36 Atlas (or Craftsman) lathe. I don't know what mill you have. The 12x36 has a 3MT spindle nose taper. So with a 3/8"-16 draw bar, you can mount 3MT collets in the spindle with no adaptor. You should, however, still have a thread protector installed. All of the Atlas 6" lathes and horizontal mills and most of the Clausing vertical mills have 2MT spindles. So 3MT collets will not fit. However, if the collets that you have are 2MT, you can use them in a 9", 10" or 12" Atlas lathe with the 2MT to 3MT adaptor sleeve that all came with. R8 collets are generally used in Bridgeport, Index and most of their Chinese clones. You can't use them in anything that Atlas ever made. 1A, 3AT and 3C collets can be used in 9" to 12" lathes but not 6" or the horizontal mills. They require a draw tube (not a draw bar) and a closer adaptor that fits 3MT on the outside and the collets on the inside. For holding milling cutters either on the lathe or the mill, you should either use dedicated Weldon style milling cutter holders or collets. Avoid trying to use a 3-jaw drill chuck because the gripping surface of the chuck jaws are hardened and the shanks of milling cutters are usually hardened and ground. The cutter may slip in the jaws. A properly sized collet will grip the cutter shank all the way around instead of just along three lines and won't slip. Also, although you haven't mentioned this, never use a chuck on a 3MT arbor or a 3MT cutter holder that is not secured in the spindle with a drawbar. Sooner or later it will come loose and ruin the work, most likely on the next to the last pass. Robert Downs - Houston wa5cab dot com (Web Store) MVPA 9480 ------- new article: An ER-20 Collet Holding Plate [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: "Rick - yahoo" rgsparber.yax~xxgmail.com rgsparber Date: Tue Dec 29, 2015 9:08 am ((PST)) I needed a simple way to organize my metric ER-20 collet set. Initially, I tossed them in a pencil box. That did keep them from rolling away but certainly was not a satisfying solution. Could have CNC'd a plate with tapered holes but that really didn't interest me. I liked the idea of a tapered hole to help retain each collet but didn't want to put forth a lot of effort. Then the trick hit me -- use a step drill! If you are interested, please see http://rick.sparber.org/ER20CHP.pdf Your comments are welcome. All of us are smarter than any one of us. If you wish to receive future article announcements automatically, please send me an email with "Article Alias" in the subject line. Thanks, Rick Rick.Sparber.org You Tube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/user/rgsparber1 ------- Re: new article: An ER-20 Collet Holding Plate Posted by: "Carvel Webb" carvelwx~xxabsamail.co.za cwlathes Date: Tue Dec 29, 2015 10:08 am ((PST)) Hi Rick, Very sneaky, and neat (as usual) J While on the topic another option somewhere between your pencil box and this solution, is to use a "tackle box". Might suit some of the guys, particularly if your environment is not kind to exposed metal surfaces! All the best for the New Year, and keep the ideas flowing .... Regards, Carvel ------- ------------------------------------------------------------------ This is just one of some 80 files about machining and metalworking and useful workshop subjects that can be read at: http://www.janellestudio.com/metal/index.html ------------------------------------------------------------------