------------------------------------------------------------------ This is just one of some 80 files about machining and metalworking and useful workshop subjects that can be read at: http://www.janellestudio.com/metal/index.html ------------------------------------------------------------------ This file includes conversations on cutting or sawing methods for metal, primarily in the context of the home workshop. If you got to this file directly from my HOME PAGE, return there by using your browser's back button. BUT if you came to this file as the result of a web search engine, see many additional files on my home page Machining and Metalworking at Home http://www.janellestudio.com/metal/index.html SAFETY WARNING BEWARE: DO NOT ASSUME that any subject matter or procedure or process is safe or correct or appropriate just because it was mentioned in a news/user group or was included in these files or on this site or on any other web site or was published in a magazine or book or video. Working with metals and machinery and chemicals and electrical equipment is inherently dangerous. Wear safety devices and clothing as appropriate. Remove watches, rings, and jewellery -- and secure or remove loose clothing -- before operating any machine. Read, understand and follow the latest operating procedures and safety instructions provided by the manufacturer of your machine or tool or product. If you do not have those most recent official instructions, acquire a copy through the manufacturer before operating or using their product. Where the company no longer exists, use the appropriate news or user group to locate an official copy. Be careful -- original instructions may not meet current safety standards. Updated safety information and operating instructions may also be available through a local club, a local professional in the trade, a local business, or an appropriate government agency. In every case, use your common sense before beginning or taking the next step; and do not proceed if you have any questions or doubts about any procedure, or the safety of any procedure. Follow all laws and codes, and employ certified or licenced professionals as required by those laws or codes. Hazardous tasks beyond your competence or expertise should also be contracted to professionals. Let's be really careful out there. (c) Copyright 2003 - 2014 Machining and Metalworking at Home The form of the collected work in this text file (including editing, additions, and notes) is copyrighted and this file is not to be reproduced by any means, including electronic, without written permission except for strictly personal use. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2001 04:50:40 -0000 From: ballendox~xxyahoo.com Subject: Re: Cutting FERROUS Metal with a BANDsaw Hi all! You used to be able to get a ferrous "blade" for the Rockwell 14" bandsaws. It was a "toothless" blade, with a wavy edge like a butchers 'meat cutting'(as opposed to bone cutting) blade. It works on the friction cut method, and is designed to run at "wood" speeds. You can see Jim Cummins of Taunton Press' Fine woodworking Magazine duplicating this type of cut (with a standard blade)in his Taunton video "tips and tricks". Hope this helps. Ballendo ------- Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2001 21:35:25 -0800 From: gsstrattonx~xxhome.com Subject: Bandsaw I use a Rockwell 14" woodworkers bandsaw to cut nonferrous metals. It uses a 105" blade and blade speed is about 3K/min. I cut mostly brass up to 1" thick without any problems. I use bimetalic blades that are as thin as I can get (not to be confused with widths) and they just chomp their way through brass and stay sharp about 30 times longer than regular blades. Also, these blades do not seem to break due to 'work hardening' like regular blades. Gil S ------- Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2001 12:49:33 -0000 From: philm39x~xxyahoo.com Subject: Re: Cutting Metal with a table saw Just to add my two cents on the subject. Yes you can cut aluminium on the table saw; you can also use your bench mounted router on aluminium, which is great if you need to cut irregular patterns. Just cut a wood template, stick it to the aluminium and follow the wood pattern. Two words of warning. First, slow down your cut rate when cutting with a router or a table saw and use any and every safety jig you have. you don't want any kickback, since a piece of flying aluminium can really hurt. Secondly, disconnect your dust collector if you have one. Aluminium powder, which is what you are creating with the router and table saw is very flammable. Aluminium powder is used in rocket fuel. Mix that with the saw dust in your dust collector and boom, a home made rocket. ------- NOTE TO FILE: DO NOT USE A WOODWORKING TABLE OR RADIAL ARM SAW FOR METAL!!!! THERE ARE MUCH SAFER ALTERNATIVES. ------- Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2001 09:12:56 -0800 From: "Marcus & Eva" Subject: Re: Cutting Metal with a table saw Hi Nick: Yes you can cut many nonferrous metals with an unconverted woodcutting bandsaw. I use a Delta 14 inch saw to cut 7075 aluminum up to 5" thick with no problems. I bought a high speed steel blade for it and I use Doall cutting wax on it. Wear ear protection if you want to do this; it's really hard on your ears!!. A note about table saws and sawing metal: It's dangerous as hell!! The problem is kickback. A good strong lad might be able to hang onto the piece when she jumps, but he risks having pieces of blade whizzing about his ears if he does. The axis and direction of rotation of a table saw aims the pieces directly toward his head. If you look at the big panel saws that the supply houses use to cut aluminum plate, you will notice that they all have provisions for holding down both sides of the sheet, and the saw is advanced mechanically; often with a leadscrew. Even then you get the "Big Bang" once in a while when the blade loads up. The absolute worst "Never Do This" is to try to use a radial arm saw to cut 6061 or other gummy grades of aluminum. You are courting the loss of an arm if you try!!! I've seen a radial saw take off and jump its endstop. Fortunately no one was hurt, but one of the most frightening sights you will ever see is a radial armsaw motor and blade zipping toward you from across the room at warp speed. Keep it safe Marcus ------- Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2001 20:32:21 -0500 From: "Rich D." Subject: Re: Re: Recommendations on Bandsaws? Dave, and all, I bandsaw Aluminum and steel frequently as a matter of business. Only on rare occasions do I concern myself with alternate TPI blades. I generally use 14 TPI for most everything at about 100 fpm on the horiz cutoff saw and a 14" vertical. I have a vertical "wood" saw with a 6 TPI scip tooth blade running at "wood" speeds. Works fine for aluminum and regular brass (no hard bearing bronzes). Lubrication is an absolute _must_. Machinists stick wax works very well, is handy, cheap and not messy. Apply frequently to the side and edge of the running blade opposite to the wheels. Never a problem of stipped teeth, scored sides or loaded teeth. For sawing thin tubing (EMT), ease the saw carefully thru by hand. Rich D. ------- Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2001 21:18:04 -0800 From: James Eckman Subject: Re: Cutting Metal with a table saw Be cheap like me! For most anything we do on Sherline and Taig sized machines, why not use a hacksaw? Cheap, reliable and very safe. Just this week, I sawed up 3 pieces of aluminum 1 1/2" thick x 5" long. It took about 20 minutes each... Good exercise! Jim Eckman Who has a software roll ;) ------- Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2001 19:45:43 -0000 From: n2562001x~xxyahoo.com Subject: Re: Small Horizontal/Vertical Cutoff Saws (Off Topic?) Dave: The ones that I have seen and owned have all been the same except for the paint job. They seem to work ok for the price but you get what you pay for. It is difficult to tighten the blade tight enough for accurate cuts but for general cutting they work fine. The one weak area is the lubrication that comes in the gear box from the factory. Whatever it is its bad news and I would replace it with STP or heavy gear lube . Its also important to seal the gear case so you don`t run it dry. This saw is one of the very few items I would ever buy again from Asia. Jerry Kieffer ------- NOTE TO FILE: Better models have side blade-support bearings as well as rear blade-support bearings. ------- Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2001 18:04:07 -0000 From: karl.grossx~xxgm.com Subject: Re: Small Horizontal/Vertical Cutoff Saws --- In sherlinex~xxy..., ballendox~xxy... wrote: I bought one of the HF saws and had it delivered to my house for $139.00. I had to join the "insiders club" ( $15 ) to get the best price, but it saved me $60 from the catalogue price. The base/legs had to be stiffened up with 2X4 reinforcements and I used a 1" spotfacer to clean up the the pivot (between the "as cast" base and the saw itself). I then made a bushing to take up all side to side play. This takes all the friction out of the pivot and the saw works freely. The saw has all the required ball bearing guides and does come with a 1 hp motor. I've used the saw to cut aluminum and steel up to 3" and it cuts very well. When used as a vertical saw, the table is pretty flimsy, but works. I've been planning to make a new table for over a year, guess it doesn't work that bad! Don't know how I could get along without it, leaves a lot more time to do machining. karl ------- Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2001 23:38:59 -0400 From: Cathy & George Dunham Subject: Re: cutting wire & models At 01:02 AM 6/19/2001 +0000, you wrote: > I got a few good suggestions on cutting music wire,however, I need >a more efficiant method than cutting and grinding the ends flat. Does >anyone know of a cutter which would cut the ends resonably flat >whithout doing extra grinding. > My next question is, does anyone have the specifactions for a P38E >drop tank? I have not found any good info in the model or airplane >books I have on hand and some of the drawing I have found don't have >enough info to be reliable for my needs. I would be interested in >info on other drop tanks too, such as the P47, etc. Thanks Bob. Hi Group and Bob: In my experience a square end is best achieved with a rapid shearing between two close fitting tool plates with a hole providing a slip fit for the gage wire you are cutting. Flat blades compress the circumference, drawing the wire creating a "D" displaced toward the ")" part of the "D" A cutter can be fashioned with this in mind. 1. 2 plates of tool steel. Finish a side on each that will mate for the shear. 2. Center drill for the rotating bolt 3/8 grade 8 with jam nut should do. 3. A piece of 1/2 x 1/8 or 3/32 about a foot long for a handle Garden hose to cushion. 4. Center drill for 3/8 pivot bolt. Allow a tail for one of the drive pins. 5. Assemble handle to rotating plate. 6. Drill a hole to receive a drive pin on each side of the pivot clear through. 7. Remove the handle, enlarge the two pin receivers in the cutting plate (next numbered drill). 8. Press the appropriate pins into the handle and braze. 9. Now assemble the whole thing. 10. Now drill as many sized holes as you require clean through. Square is the goal here. 11. Disassemble, harden the plates, reassemble. A depth stop can be added etc. When cutting use a quick action to minimize deformation. Hope this helps. Regards George Dunham NAWCC 0135625 Clock Repair at Antiques & Uniques 152 Route 171 S. Woodstock, CT 06281 (860) 928-6020 ------- Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2001 06:15:23 -0000 From: dewarrx~xxtelusplanet.net Subject: cutting wire Thanks for some more ideas. Using Georges idea for inspiration I used an old pare of wiss snips, ground a notch in each blade about the size of the wire and gave it a try. It cuts the music wire nice and square and clean. No finger pokers on the ends. It still needs a bit of refining but it works very well. The ultimate answer may be Georges tool design but I'll try this for now. Thanks. Now if someone has some info on drop tanks, let me know. Thanks again Bob ------- From: kdolanx~xxe... Date: Sun Jul 8, 2001 4:37 pm Subject: Cheap Bronze This is probably off-topic, but there seems to be a lot of experience in this group so... Like many here, I'm always on the lookout for a bargain in "bits and pieces" that might come in handy later. I often need a bit of Bronze for some project or other and generally have found Bronze kinda hard to come by. Recently I spied a container full of what was identified as "Silicon Bronze Ingots". These looked like the shape of a loaf of bread, about a foot long and about 4" thick at the base. I also have one of the cheap Central Machinery 4 1/2" band saws that has served me pretty well so I thought "I'll grab one of those and just slice off pieces as needed." Well, this stuff isn't particularly hard, but it must be abrasive as H***. Throwing it up on my saw I began to slice off a 1/2" piece for a project I have in mind. The saw had a relatively new blade and is pretty sharp. The cut went well for about 3/4 inch, merrily spitting out chips, but soon it slowed down the rate of cut and only a slow output of very, very fine chips. Another new blade... Still no real progress, it's been cutting for about an hour and a half now and only about 1/3 of the way through! Looks like the blade pretty quickly gets is side offset of the teeth worn off (I know there's a name for this side offset of the teeth, but I can't recall it. Kerf?). Anyone have any suggestions or sage advice? Kirk Dolan ------- From: michaelhenryx~xxm... Date: Sun Jul 8, 2001 5:25 pm Subject: Re: Cheap Bronze This is probably a stupid suggestion, but are you sure that the bandsaw isn't getting hung up on something? More than once, I've experienced the same sudden decrease in sawing speed only to discover that one of the alignment bearings was getting caught on the saw vise. ------- From: doogdoogx~xxh... Date: Sun Jul 8, 2001 5:25 pm Subject: Re: Cheap Bronze Aloha Kirk, I don't know if this will help but: 1. Try your slowest speed. 2. Use 10tpi bi-metal blade. 3. One time I was trying to cut a piece of scrap cast iron for a project and it started off very good, then the blade didn't seem to cut as well so I removed the blade and it looked like one side was very dull so I changed the blade and the same thing happened. I removed the piece from the vise and turned it side ways and made a cut perpendicular to the first cut and I found a small ball bearing in the stock. Maybe there are some impurities in your stock. Hope this helps. Mahalo, Howard ------- From: S1 Date: Sun Jul 8, 2001 9:04 pm Subject: Re: [atlas_craftsman] Re: Cheap Bronze Kirk- These ingots are probably pretty pure. I used to do lots of work in a bronze foundry, and the ingots discribed are your standard 15 or 20 lb ingots. Silicon bronze is the strongest of bronzes used in industry and is very good for structural applications. The common mix is generally 94% copper, 5% tin, and 1% silicon. It takes a patina worse than Manganese bronze, and is less good for art foundrys, but many art foundrys use it. Bronze is poured into the mold at 2100 degrees F. As far as cutting it, a 10 TPI blade at the slowest speed will be best. Bronze is generally very abrasive, so Bi-metal blades are best. To give a good idea of how abrasive it is, it eats HSS burs really fast, and Carbide is generally required. One thing to watch out for with these ingots is a weak center. Depending how these were poured, the middle of the ingot may be very porous. This is caused if the bronze was poured into an the ingot molds that was significantly colder than the molten metal. The outside of the ingot was formed much sooner than the inside, as the outside cooled faster than inside (and shrunk) it pulls metal where it still is molten (oftentimes the center). The end result is a center where the metal structure is much more porous and crystaline than the outside where the ingot mold was. So depending on what you are making, a sections of the ingot may not be optimal material to use. Gabe ------- From: kdolanx~xxe... Date: Sun Jul 8, 2001 8:02 pm Subject: Re: Cheap Bronze Well, now *two* blades and about 5 hours later I've got a slice of Bronze. The stuff is not apparently hard, punching a center mark into it with my spring-loaded center punch produces a punch mark a little wider and deeper than the same done on a scrap piece of brass. But "cheap bronze" this ain't! That 1/2" slice has cost me the price of two blades ($20?), the first blade was not new, I'd been using it about 8 or 10 months, but I'd also made a cut thru an inch and a half crs bar a couple of days ago and it sailed through like expected (maybe 2 minutes). The second blade is now also dull. I'd been planning on purchasing a good Starret bi-metal blade the next time I needed one (the ones I just used are cheap chinese I got at the same time I got the saw). Now I need to get a new blade so I think I'll get two good ones. Perhaps I'll risk a good blade in one more try, they are about $20 a piece, but it begins to look like that "cheap bronze" wasn't such a bargain after all. Thanks to all who weighed in. That's the real value of the forum... Kirk ------- From: "George" Date: Sun Jul 8, 2001 11:06 pm Subject: Re: Cheap Bronze > about 1/3 of the way through! Looks like the blade pretty quickly > gets is side offset of the teeth worn off (I know there's a name for > this side offset of the teeth, but I can't recall it. Kerf?). Kirk: This is called the "rake" of the blade ,and if you start a new blade in a grove that was cut with another blade (especially a dull one) then it can and will "kill"the rake on the new blade! The others have prettymuch covered everything else but you might have better luck using some coolant. Hope this helps some George Hunt ------- From: kdolanx~xxe... Date: Mon Jul 9, 2001 3:18 pm Subject: Re: Cheap Bronze - Final Report How sweet it is ---- Thanks to all, especially Howard, Gabe, George, Jon & Dj, your suggestions were right on. Yeah, I was using a 18tpi blade and the speed was on the top pully (highest). I think another lesson here for us neophytes, "patience, these things DO take time!". This morning, first thing, back to my local "chinese stuff" importer (aka Harbor Freight) where I got a new blade, this time 10tpi (six bucks). What a difference! On lowest speed one smooth cut through, about 40 minutes, and I had another "slice", and the blade still seems OK. It's really great to have all this expertise available... Kirk ------- From: "Dave Engels" Date: Wed Aug 8, 2001 11:32 pm Subject: RE: [atlas_craftsman] horizontal vertical metal cutting bandsaw Biltutx~xxa. on August 08, 2001 wrote: >> Hey guys, this is a little bit off the subject but still related. I am considering the purchase of a metal cutting bandsaw. I have looked at the harbour freight model as well as the northern hydraulics model. They both appear to be identical with the exception of the color of the paint. I seem to remember reading in Home Shop Machinist that the Jet Model was a little better. There is about $80.00 difference, with the Harbour / northern model costing about $180.00 and the Jet with a little larger capacity costing about $261.00. Granted certainly not a lot of money compared to the aggravation of the hack saw!!!! Any help or input would be greatly appreciated. Bill << Bill, I don't [know] what you will be cutting with a bandsaw, but I have purchased a cheap ($45) Chinese made abrasive cutoff saw. Works great!!! There is a scrap metals supply house near me, a big operation, and they have all kinds of metal saws, band saws, etc etc, but I notice they seem to use the abrasive cutoff saws mostly. They work not only on steel/iron, but also very well on aluminum, and leave a relatively smooth finish. At $45 my saw (it's about an 8 inch wheel) takes care of my needs very well. Replacement wheels are not that expensive. I agree completely with you re the hacksaw:) Best, Dave Engels ------- From: S1 Date: Thu Aug 9, 2001 2:29 am Subject: Re: [atlas_craftsman] horizontal vertical metal cutting bandsaw Well, They all are probably are all made by the same people. Delta "makes" one and the castings look identical the the HF one. Same capacities, speeds everything. Delta puts Delta knobs on theirs and paints it Delta Grey, Jet paints the ones they get white and puts a Jet sticker on it..... Those band- saws are like import lathes: Many people sell a 7X10, 9X20.....and they all look the same, only a different color. Companies buy these machines, alter them slightly and market them under their more respectable name. I personally would just get the HF one and save yourself some cash. The core machine is the same on all of them. Gabe ------- From: "M K (Skip)Campbell Jr." Date: Thu Aug 9, 2001 12:32 am Subject: Re: [atlas_craftsman] horizontal vertical metal cutting bandsaw I have been using the Jet 4x6 for about 3 years (244.00 with a 20.00 rebate) and love it. No problems at all. I did modify the vise angle set with a nut made to fit the slot under the table and a long T-bolt so I can change the angle without having to get a wrench on the bottom side. Also scribed a line for 90 and 45 on the table for quick vise setting. Also welded up an angle iron stand to replace the cheesy sheet metal original. I compare to the chinese machines and believe it's worth the difference. Jet is from Taiwan. The castings are cleaner and it just looks more professionally made. Regards, Skip Campbell Ft. Worth, TEXAS ------- From: sleykinx~xxa... Date: Thu Aug 9, 2001 8:01 pm Subject: Re: [atlas_craftsman] horizontal vertical metal cutting bandsaw The only real difference I have noticed is that some have a stamped steel/welded blade guide holder and some have cast iron. I have the stamped steel holder and though it works fine it does flex a bit more than I like and I did have to re-weld it. ------- From: "RON Shaw" Date: Fri Aug 10, 2001 11:26 am Subject: Re: Cut-Off Saw vs Metal cutting band saw Guess I'd have to come down on the other side of the discussion re: cut-off saws band saw. I have a Harbor Freight 14" cut-off saw, and while it will certainly grind a piece of steel in two, it makes a god-awful racket doing it, spews sparks and little pieces of hot metal everywhere (I have a scorched place in my garage drywall to prove it), and won't make a straight cut no matter what kind of disk I use. My Atlas-Craftsman "Power Hacksaw" (NOW we're on topic!) on the other hand will produce a clean, straight cut every time, doesn't wake up babies two blocks away, nor does it threaten to set fire to my shop with every use. Time is money in commercial use, however, so I'm sure that's why a metal supply house would end up using a cut-off saw more often. Ron Shaw ------- From: michaelhenryx~xxm... Date: Fri Aug 10, 2001 9:30 pm Subject: Re: horizontal vertical metal cutting bandsaw --- In atlas_craftsmanx~xxy..., Biltutx~xxa... wrote: > Gabe, thanks for the advice.....seems to be the consensus of everyone.. > So i will go back to shopping for the hf. I've read that some of the better brands do more QC (either at the fabricator or here in the States). Don't know if it's true, but if so, it would be a reason to justify a higher price and might increase the chances of getting a decent saw. Regardless of brand, it seems that owners universally recommend checking the gearbox for loose casting sand or other crud. You'll also want to spring for a good brand of saw blade to replace whatever comes with the saw. Lenox seems to be the choice, although Starret used to be considered pretty good. I had enough money to spring for the Jet and it's worked out quite well for me. Cut square right out of the box and only needed a little fiddling to realign the bracket that hits the shut-off switch at the end of a cut. No sand in my gear box, either. ------- From: Joe Burns Date: Sat Aug 11, 2001 6:06 pm Subject: 108.1502 Craftsman Power Hacksaw Hi, I've had a Craftsman power hacksaw for a while & finally got the motivation to clean it up this weekend. It's model #108.1502. I need to make a stand and motor mount for it before I can make it run. It looks pretty simple - there don't seem to be alot of adjustments to make. I couldn't get any info for it on the Sears website. I also searched all the past messages from this group, but couldn't find any useful info. I'm curious to know who the manufacturer is (Atlas ??? - I thought they started with 101.xxxx). It would also be great to get a manual or instruction sheet for it if possible. Thanks for any help....Joe ------- From: michaelhenryx~xxm... Date: Sun Aug 12, 2001 12:22 pm Subject: Re: 108.1502 Craftsman Power Hacksaw Joe, check your email, if you haven't already. I just emailed you the cover page of the Atlas hacksaw manual. If it looks the same, I can email you (or anyone else) a 1 MB PDF file of the manual for the Atlas Model 4350 power hacksaw. It's 5 pages and was scanned, OCR'd, and converted to a PDF file. You'll need the Adobe Acrobat Reader, which is available as a free download, to view or print it. ------- From: helpx~xx4... Date: Sun Aug 12, 2001 5:37 pm Subject: Re: Valuable accessory to Bandsaw- Rick: A more thorough description will be posted this week with more pictures. http://www.powerlink.net/perocon/web/sawdemoA.jpg http://www.powerlink.net/perocon/web/saw.jpg http://www.powerlink.net/perocon/web/sawdemo1.jpg FYI, Yesterday I cut a block of 14" x 7"x 3" aluminum tool and jig plate with a 4" x 6" saw ( 8 pitch wood blade- 2 cuts) As you can start the cut with the head nearly vertical, (maybe 20 degrees), and the speed can be nearly nothing, you have thus increase its working capacity. The spring you now have will put the entire head weight on the blade, with attendendent deflection and vibration problems. Re the 2" of stroke, The basic cylinder is a commercial hydraulic unit with more then 8" of stroke. As the picture shows the setup, this works through a pivot point of the head- Think of your spring- it does not compress or expand more then 2" either. If you use this device on the leg of the saw, you may use a greater amount of available travel. This device works well on larger saws too. You can replace the 1/4" tubing to the valve with longer ones so you can put the valve somewhere else. We also sell an aditional valve ($24) which is variable flow in one direction, and full flow in the other- very helpful in repeat cuts, as you can lift the head only as much as you need, and the cut speed will be the same as the previous one. On Fri, 10 August 2001, Rick Kruger wrote: > A most interesting product. I'm not clear on how it increases the size of > work that can be cut or what you mean by "It only uses about 2" of the > available stroke". > You might consider posting it to this group as well, perhaps with more > images and explanation than the one you provided below. A lot of members, > a lot with the 4x6 bandsaws. > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/7x10minilathe/messages/ > Rick > > At 04:30 AM 8/10/01 -0700, you wrote: > >http://www.powerlink.net/perocon/web/saw.jpg > >Above is a picture link to a hydraulic device we make for all ot the 4x6 > >imported bandsaws. This is an improvement which makes these saws equally > >twice as valuable as thwy are now. > >We make and market these devices here in Maine.It replaces the spring > >mechanism on cutoff saws, as well as existing hydraulic or pneumatic ones. > >The long length of stroke allows you to increase the size of work you can > >cut. As viewed in the picture, It only uses about 2" of the available > >stroke- Thus most of the cylinder acts as a cushion The double acting > >hydraulic cylinder is about 19" long, and speed is controlled by turning > >the red valve. The yoke of the cylinder is adjustable and mounted on an 18" > >flatbar. Included are a bushing and fasteners for the ball end of the > >cylinder to mount on the bandsaw head. This unit is brand new - > > We also make accessories for these import saws (Replacement bearings, > >bearing shafts{straight and eccentric}, and handles. Additionally we have > >a fullflow/variable flow valve available for repeat cuts.- > > Also a line of sheet > >metal benders from 6" to 24" long, as well as our previously mentioned 6" > >atlas accessories. We take cash, checks, or money orders. > >Our retail cost for this is greater then the price you see on ebay, where > >we always have one listed for sale ( user name "forem") We decided to use > >ebay for our market research a couple of years ago > >rather then hire a commercial firm to do so, and the feedback and > >improvements from customers has been great. As a result, we will always > >honor the price (and money back guarantee) if we are offering of our own > >devices on ebay. You can email us or call me at 1-800-603-0323 if you have > >specific application questions > >Our address is: > >4M Tool Co. RR 3 Box 6305 Vassalboro, Maine 04989-9501 > >Thanks for your interest. Regards, George O'Connor [SEE UPDATED POST 05 MARCH 2003 BELOW] ------- From: sleykinx~xxa... Date: Sun Aug 12, 2001 6:36 pm Subject: Re: [atlas_craftsman] Re: Valuable accessory to Bandsaw- FWIW I have one of these cylinders with the variable ratio valves (fast up slow down) on my 4X6 and it is everything George says it is and more. I had to modify the mount for mine as I have built a stand with tray (for coolant) I have found it increases the blade life at least double and the saw cuts more repeatably. Just one more "toy" that paid for itself :) Although it is a bit off topic I can make pictures available for any that are interested. Glenn Neff Medford, OR ------- From: sleykinx~xxa... Date: Tue Aug 14, 2001 12:14 am Subject: Bandsaw feed pics uploaded to files section I have uploaded 4 pics of my bandsaw showing the sawfeed that George mentioned and the stand I built out of angle iron. I still need to paint the stand and add the coolant pump and tank to the shelf below. The more I use the saw the less I am inclined to add coolant. I bought a stick of saw lube (sort of a beeswax/grease mix) and it is much cleaner than I would suspect coolant to be. The tray is "dented" in the middle to let the coolant go to a drain if I ever install it. The only tricky part of the stand (besides bending the 10 Ga sheet) is welding the supports to the pan so they are aligned with the saw. I made the tabs and bolted them to the saw and then tacked em to the pan with the saw still bolted up. Removed the saw and finished welding. Again I appologize for the off topic posts and pics. Feel free to delete them as soon as you like. Glenn Neff Medford, OR ------- From: Date: Wed Aug 15, 2001 12:23 pm Subject: New file uploaded to atlas_craftsman This email message is a notification to let you know that a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the atlas_craftsman group. File : /rotary table & 6" atlas lathe/clamphacksaw2.gif Uploaded by : lloydsondrax~xxm... Description : Hacksaw that I just completed You can access this file at the URL [ALL TOGETHER -- NO BREAK] http://groups.yahoo.com/group/atlas_craftsman/files/rotary%20ta ble%20%26%206%22%\20atlas%20lathe/clamphacksaw2.gif ------- Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2002 21:09:01 -0000 From: "jumbo75007" Subject: micro mark portable band saw and base I realize that this is not a web site for the band saw but several people have this bandsaw and I would like to share my experience. As everyone who has the bandsaw and base knows, the material hold down clamp leaves something to be desired. This is what I did. 1. Remove the entire hold down (4 bolts). 2. Remove the front fixed clamp stop (2 bolts). 3. Move the front fixed clamp stop over to the right, mark the holes and drill. The original bolts (8mm) were tapped into the hold down assembly, but I just drilled clearance holes and used 5/16" bolts and nuts. 4. Test assemble the entire hold down unit next to the saw. I had to -slightly- grind the right aft corner of the unit so that the rear rollers on the saw did not hit the corner. The saw itself did bump the hold down unit, but the saw blade was below the clamping surface prior to bumping which is what is necessary. Make sure that the front and rear rollers miss the hold down unit. Move the unit as needed for the proper fit. Use a square to line up the hold down unit. I got the unit to about 1/8" from the saw. Mark the holes and drill clearance holes for the 8mm bolts and nuts. The next part may or may not be necessary, I did it, but the movable face of the clamp is so off center, even after turning it around, that on short pieces of material, a piece of wood for a spacer will be needed to keep the clamp from twisting. 5. Prior to assembly of the entire clamp unit to the base, I removed the cotter pins in the movable face of the clamp and disassembled that part of the clamp. The movable face needs a 9/16" hole drilled in the angled part of the clamp unit (same as the upper hole). You need to turn the movable clamp over which entales inverting the bolt. You can make a small washer on your lathe or just ignore the movement of the bottom of the pin. This will make sense when you inspect the clamp bracket and pin. Probably a better solution would be to use some flat head bolts and bolt a length of steel on the face of the clamp and use spacers for any short piece of material that you are cutting to keep the movable face of the clamp from twisting and losing its grip. Dan Fuller Carrollton, Texas -------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 29 Jun 2002 12:26:23 +0200 From: Douglas Burkett Subject: Slitting Saw I just tried using a new slitting saw, resounding failure. I was using it to cut a slot at right angles to a .25 steel rod, the rod is easily cut with a hacksaw. So I'm certain it isn't hardened. The saw is stamped HSS 1/32 29 teeth 2 1/2 inches in diameter, the saw was mounted in the 1 inch sherline arbor, the saw cut in about a 16th or so and started deflecting and screeching as it rubbed against edges of the kerf. The rod was mounted in the v-groove of the sherline vise pointing up the z axis. I had the saw as low along z axis as it would go and still clear the vise. I didn't want it to deflect the rod as it cut. I was using the y-axis feed to move the rod into the saw. Good grief what a racket. Is this the wrong saw for steel? Wrong way to clamp? I just hope I didn't ruin the saw, the rod got fairly hot. Could it have been hardening the work as it was cutting? Thanks, Doug ------- Date: Sat, 29 Jun 2002 08:29:06 -0400 From: "Ty Hoeffer" Subject: RE: Slitting Saw Probably you were running the saw at to high an RPM, and too much Feed. A 1/32" saw isn't very stiff. Slow rpm, slow feed, small Depth of cut, plenty of cutting fluid, is the way to success. Too fast & you'll dull the saw in a heartbeat. My $.02 Ty ------- Date: Sat, 29 Jun 2002 10:31:24 -0400 From: RichD Subject: Re: Slitting Saw Doug, use plenty of cutting oil. The saw RPM should be dead slow. ~50 RPM. RichD ------- Date: Sat, 29 Jun 2002 11:07:55 -0400 From: "Dan Statman" Subject: Re: Slitting Saw When a tool has a diameter of 2.5 inches a slow rotational speed still translates into a high linear speed for the saw teeth. This is why when I mill with a 0.025" cutter I set the spindle for its maximum RPM of 10,200. Since your saw blade is 100 times bigger in diameter (and therefore circumference) it would require 1/100 of the rotational speed to achieve the same linear speed. Therefore something in the 100 RPM range would probably work. This was a good lesson, and one you will likely never forget. Daniel J. Statman, Statman Designs www.statmandesigns.com ------- Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2002 09:26:21 -0700 From: "Craig Libuse" Subject: Re: Slitting Saw >Odd that I don't remember seeing anywhere that the rpm should be so low for >the slitting saw. Doug, the instructions that come with the slitting saw holder begin as follows: "Using the correct cutting speed is an important part of using slitting saws correctly. You must realize that when you exceed the cutting speed with high speed steels, the dulling process can be instantaneous. It isn't you get shorter tool life, you get "no life"! This can be expensive in time and money because slitting saws usually cost so much you don't have spares. Another problem that happens with slitting saws is that one edge gets dull before the other. This causes the blade to deflect as it cuts. How much it deflects is somewhat a function of the blade's thickness. A common error that can be made is putting a slitting saw on the spindle upside down when they will only cut one way. Look carefully at the direction the teeth are facing." Your experinece reminds me that perhaps it would be a good idea to include some sample speeds in that writeup, as it does depend on the user to do a SFM calculation for their particular project. Sorry for your problem. Craig Libuse ------- Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2002 07:55:25 EDT From: tadici283x~xxcs.com Subject: Re: Re: Slitting Saw The Jewelers here will know right off that a sliting saw is a replacement for a hand saw, meaning that you want to go as slow as a hand saw would go, this is not possible with some machines that have a min. speed but dead slow is the order of the day, the size and small cutting teeth make them venerable to certain damage and quick too. Here you need the right cutting lube for the job, heat kills mega-fast. On one machine (non Sherline I use my cutters at say 30 rpms) and even then if the material is difficult the cutters show the signs of wear. Cutters of this type are costly but can be helpful due to cutting on a mill is accurate, there is a depth limit on these saws as well. They are not much good over 1/4 inch in soft material, due to deflection and thin construction, I have had friends try to cut a two inch block of brass only to find out how foolhardy that can be. If you work with larger saws, these too are less than effective compared to other methods. I have learned over the years, many times very very hard lessons, that my natural desire to get the job done fast needs to be tempered with large amounts of patience, or my scrap bin will keep getting larger. Chris of Bradenton FLA Horotecx~xxcs.com ------- Date: Tue, 02 Jul 2002 18:16:25 -0000 From: "paul_probus" Subject: Re: band saw or chop saw -- Sorry, its long --- In sherlinex~xxy..., "kevin_sedota" wrote: > My arm is getting tired from the hack saw. > I want to get something that can be used to cut things up to about > 1.5 inchs square in materials as hard as 316SS or 1018 steels. I've > been considering a chop saw and running abrasive cutoff wheels but > I saw in the last enco flyer a small portable, horizontal band saw. > I was wondering if anyone has any experience with these small band > saws. Are they worth the price? Do the work well enough? etc > Any info would be appreciated. I mostly see the abrasive chop saws used on "hollow" materials (ie. materials made from relatively thin sheet metal), such as wall studs, square and round tubing, etc. Solid materials cut with it are typically small and/or hardened. I see a chop saw as more of a secondary tool, compared to the bandsaw. My personal preference would be the bandsaw. If you are not in a hurry to get it, you may want to sign up at Homier's website to get email notification of their sales. They have truckload sales at different cities throughout the country, the only problem is that you may be waiting up to 6 months (at least they seem to be in Fredericksburg and Richmond VA every 6 months, they may come to other cities more often). Its all rebuilt American tools or Chinese stuff. They do have about the best price on the 4x6 bandsaw at $99, however, if you order one through their web site, you will pay as much for shipping as you would to buy the saw from Harbor Frieght and HF frequently puts their's on "sale" by doing free shipping. With the possible exception of Homier's brand, all the other brands of the 4x6 bandsaw are made by the same factory and it does not matter whether you buy from Enco, Grizzly, HF, etc. Shop by price. The reason I leave Homier off, is that their machine seems to be so much cheaper than the other brands, it may not be the same machine. They sell a 7x12 metal lathe that is equivalent to the other brands 7x12, but it is made at a different factory. They also carry the portable bandsaw (hand bandsaw) that others have mentioned for the same price ($99). It is only two speed, but it does come with the base. A portable bandsaw is nice, but I would recommend buying the Milwaukee variable speed one over one of these two speed imported ones. Of the two choices in bandsaws (ie. 4x6 vs. portable), you would get more for your money buying the 4x6 bandsaw over either the portable bandsaw from Milwaukee or the imported version. I have used a 4x6 bandsaw that was branded as Dayton (as in Dayton electric motors, it was made in China) and I found that it would cut pretty square cuts 2" deep or less. Deeper cuts required leaving extra material to be ground off. I did not do any tweaking to it, since it was owned by the previous company that I worked for and I was getting paid by the hour, therefore, I had no real incentive to do any tweaking to it. I don't believe it would have taken too much tweaking to make it a better saw, of course, I don't know how much it was tweaked prior to my working there. Re-visiting the abrasive chopsaw, Grizzly sells a base for attaching a 4" or a 4-1/2" angle grinder to and another base for attaching a 7" or a 9" angle grinder to. I bought the Homier 7" angle grinder with the purpose to mount it to either a homemade base or Grizzly's base. I really don't need a 14" abrasive saw, the 7" should be fine for the few times I would need it. I tested the Homier 7" angle grinder with an abrasive cutting wheel and it cut (by hand, I haven't made up or bought a mount, yet) through a 1/2" piece of steel (crappy steel, I will admit) with no problem and quicker than I thought (I never used an abrasive chopsaw and I did not know what to expect). I had intended to buy the 7" chopsaw sold by HF and Cummins (another company like Homier), but everything I have read said that these are only good for very light gauge materials and comparing the amp ratings of the 7" angle grinder to the small chopsaw showed that the angle grinder should be much more powerful than the small chopsaw. I didn't mean to make this response so long, sorry. Paul ------- Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 12:31:38 EDT From: wanlikerx~xxaol.com Subject: Re: Cut Off saw/Band Saw [sherline group] In a message dated 7/3/2002: > been considering a chop saw and running abrasive cutoff wheels but I > saw in the last enco flyer a small portable, horizontal band saw I have both, I use the hacksaw when it is important that the characteristics of the metal stay the same, a chop saw will get the workpiece extremely hot at the cutting point, and sometimes this leads to really hard spots. I use it for rough construction work, the band saw for work to be machined. bill CCED ------- Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 17:51:00 -0400 From: Alex Barrie Subject: Re: Bandsaw worm gear Most Taiwanese stuff should be interchangeable, usually the only difference between models is basically paint color and the manufactures name plate. try Grizzly, Harbor Freight, and others shop around and see what you find. speaking of 4X6 try some of these helpful pages: http://www.tinyisland.com/4x6bsFAQ.html http://easyweb.easynet.co.uk/~chrish/wrk_tips.htm http://www.homemetalshopclub.org/news/article_index.htm some of these are not totally 4X6 but browse, ------- Date: Sun, 06 Oct 2002 02:48:48 -0000 From: "jumbo75007" Subject: OT: Micro Mark Portable Band Saw I have had a MM portable band saw for some time now. I had made a modification to the vice on the portable table, but it was not satisfactory enough for quick cutting. After much frustration, I removed the entire vice assembly. I drilled new holes and bolted down a drill press vice to the band saw table. I used a Harbor Freight #37956 vice. I just looked up the number on the web site and they don't have it. I bought mine at the HF store about 1 year ago. Probably, any LOW sitting drill press vice will work; just check out the clearance around the housing of the band saw next to the vice. I could not get the jaws of this vice any closer than 3/4", so I got a piece of 1/4" x 1 1/2" steel and made new jaws. Now, the jaws go to within a fraction of an inch of the blade. This modification has been totally sucessful! Sorry, no pictures, I don't have a digital cameral. My opinion: If you can squeeze the Horizontal/Vertical Metal Band Saw into your shop area, buy it instead of the Portable Band Saw, unless of course you have a need for a portable band saw. Dan Fuller Carrollton, Texas ------- Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 05:18:29 -0000 From: "Donald Clement" Subject: Re: Bandsaw blade, There is a yahoo group for the 4x6 metal bandsaw at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/4x6bandsaw All the guides for this bandsaw are ball bearing rollers. Cool blocks are not needed for this bandsaw. They would be useful on my 14" wood/metalbandsaw though. Don Clement Running Springs, California ------- Date: Sat, 30 Nov 2002 16:57:26 -0800 From: "Orrin B. Iseminger" Subject: Re: Chunking up metal At 11:45 PM 11/30/2002 -0000, you wrote: > What do you use to rough cut bar stock and plate? > I just bought a supposed metal cutting blade for a small tabletop > bandsaw I have, but ordinary steel just takes the teeth off. I think > the speed of this little bandsaw is too fast for proper metal > cutting, hardening the work before it cuts it. > Does anyone else use such a small bandsaw? Can you get blades that > will cut well? Maybe I have just have bad technique. > Are there other small-scale solutions? What about an abrasive wheel > in a chop saw or table saw? your replies! Bill in Halifax If the band saw was originally intended for wood, blade speed is much too fast for cutting steel. I bought a wood-cutting band saw to use on aluminum, but I'd never dream of using it for steel. If you want to cut steel with it, add a jack shaft and a couple more vee-belt pulleys to add another step of speed reduction. Of course, if you buy new parts this will cost, considerably. You'd be better off getting a Harbor Freight 4" X 6" metal cutting band saw. I got mine on a recent sale for $149 US. I doubt I'll ever bother to convert the wood band saw to slower operating speeds. I would stay away from abrasive cutoff saws. Granted, mild steel supposedly doesn't have enough carbon in it for hardening purposes; but, something happens in the stuff when it is cut with an abrasive saw or with an oxy-acetylene cutting torch. In both cases the cut surface is hard enough to resist machining. However, if you use your pedestal grinder to dispose of the hardened skin (being careful to not overheat the steel, of course), you won't have any trouble with followup machining. Another operation for chunking up is chain drilling. It is commonly used for making model locomotive frames. Regards, Orrin B. Iseminger Colton, Washington, USA So many projects, so little time. http://users.moscow.com/oiseming/lc_ant_p/index.htm ------- Date: Sat, 30 Nov 2002 23:44:41 -0600 From: Ron Roske Subject: Re: Chunking up metal Orrin, Bill & all, I read your comments and though that I might add a bit from experience. I often turn small pins and such from cold rolled steel rod. When I need a piece of rod for a project, I just whack a chunk with my abrasive chop saw and have never had a problem with a skin developing. I just let it air cool and chuck it up. Don't know as I have tried using a piece that was cut off with a torch. I can just do the cut off with the saw faster than I can start up the torch, I guess. Have. a good one, all. RonR ------- Date: Thu, 2 Jan 2003 11:15:24 -0500 From: "Tracy Atkinson" Subject: Re: Digest Number 995 saws When considering versatile saws which require little space. Don't overlook the sabre saw. A good quality machine will cut almost anything with good precision. There is a very wide variety of types and sizes of blade readily available. It will probalby do much of the work which you require using it in conventional fashion. If not, you can easily make a table to mount it in upside down allowing for table grooves for miter gauges, fences, etc. My Ryobi has stood me in good stead in this regard. Tracy Atkinson, Avon CT ------- Date: Thu, 02 Jan 2003 21:34:55 -0500 From: Bradford Chaucer Subject: Re:small bandsaws Proxon also makes a small variable speed bandsaw. Model Expo, among others sells it http://www.modelexpo-online.com/default.htm Regards, Bradford Chaucer ------- Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2003 16:07:49 -0000 From: "Bryan Hassing " Subject: Questions on using slitting saws I am about to order the slitting saw holder and some blades for my Sherline lathe with milling column. Are there any do/don'ts regarding the use of slitting saws such as cutting postions or types of cuts that aren't safe? Also, I will be cutting aluminum, brass, and plastic almost exclusively. Are these soft materials cut best with blades with relatively fewer teeth to clear the chips effectively? Thanks. ------- Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2003 09:03:02 -0800 From: "Dave Hylands" Subject: RE: Questions on using slitting saws Hi Bryan, One thing to always check is the cutting speed. You need to determine the appropriate cutting speed for the material that your cutting (typically measured in feet/sec or feet/min). You then need to factor in your RPM and blade diameter. It's really easy to run the blade too fast and dull it. Dave Hylands Vancouver, BC, Canada http://www.DaveHylands.com/ ------- Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2003 19:52:36 -0500 From: "Bill Rutiser" Subject: Re: Questions on using slitting saws Be sure to run the saw in the right direction. They seem to be ruined instantly if run backwards. Please don't ask why I know this. Bill ------- Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2003 18:45:44 EST From: cmiller231x~xxaol.com Subject: Re: Bandsaw question [SMALL METAL BANDSAWS WITH QUESTIONABLE LUBE FROM FACTORY] Relace the metal cover on the gear box with clear plastic to keep an eye on lube. Chris ------- Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2003 19:02:33 -0600 (CST) From: dswrx~xxwebtv.net Subject: Re: Bandsaw question There are some differences in the 4x6 that I have noted. The most obvious, if you look closely, are the blade guide holders. On one, they are cast iron and are held internally in the the top frame. The other has guides stamped out of steel, and are mounted external to the top frame. The top frame of the cast iron guides model is somewhat heavier. Other than that, the motors are the big difference. Leo (pearland, tx) ------- Date: Wed, 05 Mar 2003 06:43:50 -0800 (PST) From: helpx~xx4mtool.com Subject: -Bandsaw question - Differences k-qx~xxwebtv.net wrote: > Are all these 4 x 6" imported bandsaws basically the same, or does one > supplier have a better one than another? > I've seen differences in the stated motor horse power and in speeds. > Who has the best one, or does it matter? Thanks, Ken Our experiences with these saws have shown us that there are very few differences- we have seen about 6 or 7 varieties- made in Taiwan, PRC, or India. In fact, some are direct casting "copies" of each other-. As has been stated, most of the differences are in the blade guides and motors. These saws often come with an inexpensive import motor- (usually made for 50 Hz, instead of the U.S. 60 Hz.) The motors run, but as they are running "overrated" they burn out more quickly. Most of them come without a thermal overload protector switch (reset button)- If you cut long stock and it isn't supported properly, the blade can become "wedged" in the work when the stock moves- this can cause a motor to burn up (if you are not constantly watching your cut as it isn't thermally protected. Regarding your bearings, most use standard 6000 bearings, and give you plenty of adjustability. Overall, any of these saw will give you very good performances if properly maintained and adjusted. In most cases they are highly preferable to abrasive saws as they don't impart as much heat to the work- this is critical in tool and stainless steel to prevent work hardening. Bi metal saw blades (in the $20-$25 range) are well worth the higher cost compared to carbon steel blades, both in longevity and ability to cut tough materials (like stainless steel). You should be able to buy one of these saws in the $200-250 range anywhere in the country (not counting shipping). The best thing that can be said for them is that you are buying a solid mass of cast iron (over 100 lbs), but the legs of sheetmetal or the wheels are laughable. The usefulness of this tool for material removal in any home or small shop will make it invaluable. Our company 4M Tool makes an inexpensive "feed control" for these units (less then $50) which replaces the tensioning spring that most of these come with originally.- additionally we make replacement bearing shafts (cam followers), and stock some replacement handles and knobs too. - at the very bottom of this posting, we are amending a "form letter with picture links FYI. Regards, George O'Connor georgex~xx4mtool 4 M Tool Co. Bandsaw List We make and market these devices here in Maine. It replaces the spring mechanism on cutoff saws, as well as existing hydraulic or pneumatic ones. The long length of stroke allows you to increase the size of work you can cut. As viewed in the picture, It only uses about 2" of the available stroke- Thus most of the cylinder acts as a cushion The double acting hydraulic cylinder is about 19" long, and speed is controlled by turning the red valve. The yoke of the cylinder is adjustable and mounted on an 18" flatbar. Included are a bushing and fasteners for the ball end of the cylinder to mount on the bandsaw head. This unit is brand new - http://members.dialmaine.com/perocon/web/saw.jpg http://members.dialmaine.com/perocon/web/sawdemoA.jpg Our website (www.4mtool.com ) is under construction. We also make accessories for these import saws, described below. Our retail cost for this is greater then the price you see on ebay, but of course, we would be happy to sell you one at that price ($48) plus the actual shipping cost for 8lbs. (we will give you a UPS or USPS cost) We decided to use ebay for our "market research" a couple of years ago rather then hire a commercial firm to do so, and the feedback and improvements from customers has been great. As a result, we will always honor the price (and money back guarantee) if we are offering of our own devices on ebay. You can call me at 1-800-603-0323 if you have specific application questions. Cast iron handwheels for saw: http://members.dialmaine.com/perocon/web/.JPG Above is a picture link to the cast iron handwheel we offer. As you can see, it is not centerdrilled, as there are various shaft sizes it might accommodate. We can have it drilled to a standard fractional or metric hole size for a $2.50 charge. The wheel weighs just under 3 lbs, and our cost for this item is $9.00 plus shipping. The diameter is 5". We have other sizes available from 3" to 8" and would be happy to quote you a cost, but this appears to be the ideal replacement size for 4" x 6" saws. Also there is no little knob included. Most users do not require them, and indeed, if they do, they drill it to accept a shoulder bolt themselves. We can supply machine handles as follows: Fixed type (steel, plated) with 1/4" 20 threads- $8 Fixed type (steel, plated) with metric M6 threads- $7 Rotating type (steel, plated) with 1/4" 20 threads- $10 Rotating type (steel, plated) with Metric M6 threads- $9 We can also supply a complete unit with handwheel, nominal center hole and revolving knob for $24 plus shipping [$5 priority]. ** Saw Bearing Guide Set: Our offering is for 3 pieces, enough to do one (of your 2) saw guide assemblies. One stationary cam follower, one eccentric one, and one for the back support of your blade. The 1/8" rod is for adjusting or holding the cam assembly from turning as you tighten the nut. It allows you greater versatility when you need to change your blade thickness. (from about 0.02" to 0.06" or.5 to 1.5mm) The pitch of the threads on the shafts ( one coarse, one fine) allows you to tell them apart. The original bearing shaft was cold rolled steel turned from a hex shape, which requires a very thin wrench (metric) to adjust or hold it- Even if you lose our rod, you can use a small rod or drill bit to do the job. The shafts are made from O-1 tool steel. Web picture link: http://members.dialmaine.com/perocon/web/brg2.JPG As stated, the set of 3 bearings and shafts are enough to do one set of guides. The cost of this set is $24.50- we also sell a complete set of 6 {enough for the complete saw change out} for $40. Postage for either is $5 for priority mail. We can also supply the bearings without shafts (but with a new metric snap ring) at $4.50 each. These are ABFMA/ABEC-1 double sealed radial bearings, which are 10 x 26 x 8mm (.3937" x1.0236" x .3149" thick). *** Variable Valve Info: . This is a variable flow valve (brass), which when installed on our feed control, allows full flow one way, and variable flow the other way. This eliminates the need to open the valve every time you lift your saw head. This is only a refinement desired by some users with high production needs. It can be installed quickly in tandem with the othervalve, or simply replace it. The cost of this is $29 + $5 Shipping (priority mail). Our address is: George O'Connor 4M Tool Co. 1044 Riverside Drive Vassalboro ME 04989-4119 Money orders, personal or business check are fine. I can also now take credit cards via paypal.com (see data below) Regards, George O'Connor p.s. If you have any problems with your purchase, please let me know so that I can attempt to rectify them. Thanks again. Info for credit cards: Please use georgex~xx4mtool.com for email and leaveoptional boxes blank. Link: https://secure.paypal.com/refer/pal=georgex~xx4mtool.com or www.paypal.com ------- Date: Fri, 7 Mar 2003 09:40:56 EST From: CaptonZapx~xxaol.com Subject: Re: Bandsaw question In a message dated 3/7/03, k-qx~xxwebtv.net wrote: > There is a Harbor Freight store in Harrisburg, PA. I took a ride there > to check out the 4 x 6" bandsaw. > It was on sale for $149. Needless to say I bought one. > Now, what (if any) modifications have to be made?? Thanks again, Ken PA The first thing I would do is to take it all apart and wash ALL the grit and grime out of it. Take the drive wheel out and check the fit of the bushing, clean it out, and put it back together. Make sure that the axle rides on the portion of the bushing that does not have the oil grooves in it. I have seen them installed that way, which isn't good for area loading. Also, try this site: http://www.tinyisland.com/4x6bsFAQ.html Enjoy, they are a great tool. Get it's little brother, the Porta Band, and all things are possible. 8) CZ ------- Date: Fri, 07 Mar 2003 12:21:14 -0600 From: Jon Elson Subject: Re: Bandsaw question Some people think the legs are horrible. Mine are pretty bad, but the saw is usable as is. But, it definitely is a bit wobbly, and when you put some really heavy, long stock in the vise, it gets worse. You will have to tinker with the blade guides, and find the real 90 degree position of the vise, to get it to cut straight. The pins the guide rollers run on are eccentric, so you can adjust the tightness with which it grips the band, and also adjust the top and bottom guide to make the blade run straight. (I hope you have the roller guides, not the slotted ones.) The lower wheel is held on the shaft with an angled setscrew. It kept working loose. I have already retapped the hole to the next largest size. If you let this go on too long, the bore it the wheel gets enlarged, and it gets worse quickly, as the wheel wobbles. No matter what you do, the wheel 'walks' off the shaft on some units, and that eventually wrecks the worm gear. Might be a good place to put some Loctite. The upper wheel runs on a journal bearing, and needs occasional lubing. That's most of the trouble I've had with mine. I've had it about 10 years, now, I think. Jon ------- Date: Fri, 7 Mar 2003 03:50:19 +0200 From: "Isak Levinson" Subject: Slitting saw holder [sherline group] I got a new problem. I made a slitting saw holder from a sherline blank. Machined it in the spindle. The center of the holder is 1/2" with less than .02mm tolerance (machined while the holder is in the spindle). I've reduced this diameter .01mm at a time and tried to fit the slitting saw until it fit. When I'm using the saw it cuts from one side only, as if it is not centered. Is it a common problem with slitting saws or have I done something wrong? Thanks, Isak. ------- Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2003 18:15:43 -0800 (PST) From: Skip Evans Subject: Re: Slitting saw holder I also just built a slitting saw arbor and have the same problem. Unless you are dead on you can't help but have this problem. I considered buying one but their tolerances weren't any better than I could produce. Your problem is not only the arbor. You have to consider spindle runout, concentricity of the collet, etc. I am going to modify the procedure used to build mine just to see if I can tighten the tolerances but in the end it will probably not cut using the full diameter of the saw. Skip Evans http://skipevans.homestead.com ------- Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2003 19:38:02 -0800 From: "Marcus & Eva" Subject: Re: Slitting saw holder Hi Skip and Isak: The problem is probably not with the arbors you made; many slitting saws are not concentric with their center holes. This will not greatly affect your ability to take a cut, but it is pretty annoying. Don't worry too much about it...if the saw cuts OK, you're in business. Cheers Marcus ------- Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2003 20:24:24 -0800 From: "Marcus & Eva" Subject: Re: Slitting saw holder > Hi Marcus, Isik, > Won't the teeth wear out faster on one side? I've seen this with > Sherline saws and Sherline arbor. A few re-adjustments usually gets it > a little better. Alan KM6VV Hi Alan: Yes they will.You are quite correct, and this is not an ideal thing. However, even with a perfectly concentric arbor, the saw will often still run out. Buying premium quality US or European saws will make the situation a bit better, but even these run out. There's little that can be done about it short of regrinding the saw while it is mounted on its arbor, in the machine spindle in which it will be run. Most people just accept the runout. Cheers Marcus ------- Date: Sat, 08 Mar 2003 17:51:39 -0000 From: "geneking2001" Subject: Re: Slitting saw holder Skip Evans wrote: > Alan I feel the same, but I do not know what else to do. What I have seen that works well is to make an arbor to fit in your 4 jaw chuck. Then adjust the jaws until all or most of the teeth are cutting all around. gene ------- Date: Sat, 08 Mar 2003 11:43:51 -0800 From: Alan Marconett KM6VV Subject: Re: Slitting saw holder Hi Gene, that's an idea. However, the chuck may get in the way. Using a DTI to get the blade mounted correctly in the arbor also may help. The few times I've ran mine, it seemed like it was hard on the blade, and that the blade wouldn't last long. It's still working, but I wonder how long. Brass and aluminum cuts OK, but steel sounds like a real strain on the blade. Slow speeds and lube seem to be the key. The saws won't take much speed. Alan KM6VV ------- Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 03:46:20 -0000 From: "mmurray70" Subject: Slitting Saw Help! [TAIGTOOLS GROUP] I really need to use a slitting saw for a type of part i'm making. I ordered one from Nick and it got here today. I wrote some code and gave it a try but it seems way to big for the Taig. The motor stalls everytime. I've even tried it with manual cuts and the results are less than desireable for what I need it to do. I have a Dremal cutting tool here that is similer to the slitting saw only much, much smaller. It has a 1/8 shank and 1/2" (approximately) diameter. Believe it or not I can get better results from this cutter than I can from my new slitting saw. Unfortunatly the 1/2" was a little too small for what i need. I really need something with about a 1" diameter but I assumed the larger taig saw would still cut ok. Is there anything else out there that will cut a slit and is bigger than 1/2" and smaller than 2 1/2"? For the record, I'm machineing small parts from 1/4 aluminium plate, 1/4 end facing the spindle. I need the saw to put a slit in the part (part is about 3/4") and then proceed to cut the part off the plate so it has room for the next part (there will be many of the same part in a row of plate). If i cant use the saw to cut off the part then the next part will have to be spaced over 2 1/2" away to allow clearance for the saw blade. Obviously this would waste a lot of stock. So I really need either to find a way to make the slitting saw cut off the part, OR get a smaller slitting saw that would allow the spacing between the parts to be more reasonable. Please post any advice on how I can solve this problem. Thanks. Mark ------- Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 21:00:46 -0700 From: "Nicholas Carter and Felice Luftschein" Subject: Re: Slitting Saw Help! Mark, You should look in the MSC catalog for slitting saws - they are available in every diameter, thickness and pitch. I'll contact you off list about sending you a sample from my slitting saw library. I think that it may be that the motor on the CNC mill is a little underpowered for the large size of slitting saw Taig sells - I'll have to look into that. See our web pages http://www.cartertools.com/nfhome.html ------- Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 17:53:57 +0900 From: "Mark Thomas" Subject: RE: Slitting Saw Help! Mark, I use the Taig slitting saw from time to time, and haven't found the problems you are having. The key to the saw is revs and feed. First only run the saw on the lowest speed your pulley combination can offer(think of a mill bit with 60 cutters as opposed to 2 or 4). Second keep the feed down. Now the reason I've said keep it down is that I hesitate to give an exact number here. Initially I would test the setup by hand and then set my feed rates based on what I thought would emulate the best hand feed rate. I've cut steel as well as aluminum and brass using this method, and haven't seized the saw yet (lubrication is a must). Unless you are using a very small motor I think you can have success with the standard slitting saw. Cheers, Mark ------- Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 13:05:04 -0700 From: "Carol & Jerry Jankura" Subject: RE: Re: Slitting Saw Help! I'd buy one of Taig's blank arbors for a couple of bucks and make my own arbor for the slitting saw. Just screw the blank arbor onto the spindle and start cutting away. I'd do it like this: 1. Face off the arbor end Now, you'll make the washer that holds the blade onto the arbor 2. Make a cut about 0.032 deep until about 0.125 from the edge of the outside edge of the arbor. 3. Drill/bore a 3/8 diameter hole about 0.1 deep. This completes the end of the washer that comes in contact with the blade. 4. Part the piece off. You've now got the washer. Next, you'll make the arbor itself. 5. Face off the remaining part of the arbor on the lathe. 6. Use the center drill and tap drill for a 10-32 screw to thread a hole on the axis. This will hold the washer to the remaing arbor. 7. Turn the end of the arbor down to the 3/8 inch diameter for about 0.1 inches This is what actually holds the slitting saw. 8. Make a slight cut into the facing surface of the arbor between the 3/8 inch diameter to about 1/8 inch from the edge of the arbor. This provides a means of keeping the blade perpendicular to the arbor/spindle even if there's a slight radius where the 3/8 inch diameter cut ends. 9. Make a small washer with a 5/8 outside diameter and a 10-32 clearance hole. This allows you to clamp the washer onto the arbor. And, you've got an inexpensive arbor for your slitting saw. Of course, you can make arbors for different blades. If the Taig arbor diameter is too large to get the depth of cut you need, you can turn it down to a smaller diameter before you make the washer and cut for the slitting saw diameter. Carol & Jerry Jankura Strongsville, Ohio ------- Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 10:07:52 -1000 (HST) From: Tom Benedict Subject: Re: Slitting Saw Help! Also, it's almost essential to use a cutting lube with a slit saw. I was cutting a part, and it was binding on every pass. I used some lubricant, and it cut beautifully. Very slow feeds. The lube I used was lanolin. Go figure. It's a nice lube for CNC jobs 'cause you can put it on and it stays there. I started using it when I had a peck drill pattern with over a hundred holes in it. I center-drilled them, packed the center drill holes with lanolin, chucked the appropriate drill bit, and let it go. Worked like a charm. I'm almost certain other lubes would work equally well with a slit saw. It's just what I had on hand. Tom ------- Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 01:27:58 -0400 From: Paul Anderson Subject: Re: Re: Slitting Saw Help! mmurray70 wrote: > It seemed to cut fairly well > at first but then jammed up after it got deeper. I did use some WD- > 40 after which helped a bit but I'm still not impressed with the > results. Are there any other common substances that would lube > better than this? That would be the aluminum galling. Keep the saw wet with turpentine. High speed, slow feed. Best way to cut aluminum. ------- Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 09:53:40 -0000 From: "Graham Green" Subject: Re: Slitting Saw Help! Hi Mark, a few answers to your questions. Remember that a slitting saw has NO set on the teeth at all, not like a woodworking saw blade.So the slitting saw must fit into the cut, any bits of swarf in the cut and it WILL gall up and you MUST use some form of lube on the blade as it is cutting. Go real slow with the feed and listen to the teeth working on the material for the speed of the saw, you might go up on the speed or down on the speed, the saw will let you know when you get it right. It will cut with a smooth sound, not a scream or a chattering noise. The first pass with a slitting saw should only be the depth of the teeth to cut a steady track for the other cuts to follow. Never take a deep cut first up, unles you want to replace the blade. Whatever material you are cutting you should feed by hand on the first cut, to get the feel of the material, then kick the power feed into gear. You can cut the full depth of the blade, into any material, as long as you take it easy. If you try and climb mill with a slitting saw, you better have a spare saw blade handy. A slitting saw is a slotting saw, just a different name in different parts of the world. A jewellers saw is a hand held saw, similar to a coping saw, the blades for a jewellers saw can have up to 80-100 teeeth per inch, they are real fine saw blades for fine work. I hope that I have answered your queries for you, if you have any more queries, please feel free to ask. radish ------- Date: Sat, 17 May 2003 22:41:34 -0000 From: "mmurray70" Subject: Re: Slitting Saw Help! Hi guys, thanks again for the tremendous amount of info provided on this. I had already tried the slow speeds and feeds that you guys recommended with no luck. I did try with some WD-40 too with little more luck but everyone here seemed to really stress the point about the lube and it makes sense since the teeth are not staggered on the blade. Anyway, I tried a few cuts with the blade completely burried in WD-40. Amazing difference. Went from not cutting at all to cutting great. Thanks again guys. I dont know what id do without the Taig group. Thanks! Mark -------- NOTE TO FILE: Some suppliers may list some round slitting saw blades as jewellers' saw blades. Tend to be at the smaller end of the slitting saw size range and were mounted originally on jewellers' lathes (tiny and expensive!). Manual jewellers' saw blades are indeed fine straight blades for a manual saw that looks similar to a shrunken fret or coping saw, but adjustable for blade length so that shorter or broken blades can still be used. Blade is inserted so cutting is done on the pull stroke, giving precision and a clear view on top of the item being cut. ------- Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2003 01:05:01 -0000 From: "Jim Knighton" Subject: Re: Bandsaw --- In sherlinex~xxyahoogroups.com, "Dan Kaschner"wrote: > Does anyone know if the woodworking bandsaw in my shop can be used > for aluminum and brass? I know the speed is too fast, but can I > still use it (assuming the blade will dull sooner)? Most of the > work I do is using Aluminum and Brass, but I would also like to find > a way to cut steel without resorting to my hacksaw. A metal bandsaw > would be great except that I have very little floorspace left in my shop. > Any help would be greatly appreciated. Dan Dan, I use my woodworking bandsaw to cut both aluminum and brass. I don't do it often, but it works. I have to go slow and easy, but that's old news. Don't expect woodworking blades to last very long but then I guess that depends on the type and quality of blade you are using. As for steel, I use a couple of approaches. For cutting bar stock to approximate dimensions I use a Milwaukee portable band saw. This is a metal cutting tool and I use bimetal blades. It ain't precise, since its a hand-held machine but it cuts just about any mild steel I take it to. There are other similar hand held machines out there as well. It came in a suitcase sized metal case and it sits on the shelf when not in use. For other cuts in thin plate, etc., I use a Bosch hand held jigsaw with their bimetal blades specifically designated as metal cutting. Again, slow and easy is the order of the day. Like you, I would like a horizontal band saw but there's no floor space left. Regards, Jim Knighton ------- Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2003 18:30:22 -0700 From: k6sufx~xxdirecway.com Subject: Re: Bandsaw You can use woodworking tools on most aluminum alloys, but brass may be a problem. There are portable band saws for metal from various sources or consider a Sawzall type of metal saw. Both of those can be stored under the bench and brought out when needed. I just bought one of those 4 X 6 combination horzontal and vertical bandsaws and so far happy with it. My shop is only 20 X 12 (Biggest one that could be hauled in) and with the benches, 12 X 36 lathe, portable swamp cooler it is getting crowded. Put in second shed of the same size and tried to keep one for metal and one for wood, but tools all end up in the wrong shed when I start a project. ------- Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2003 22:16:42 -0700 From: "Marcus and Eva" Subject: Re: Bandsaw Hi Dan: I've cut 6" thick, hard aluminum blocks (7075 T6) on a 14" Delta woodworking bandsaw without problems. I use Lenox Diemaster blade stock and silver solder the joint myself. I've probably put 100 lineal feet of aluminum of various thicknesses through it since the last blade change and it's still going strong. Cheers Marcus ------- Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2003 05:23:22 -0000 From: "alenz2002" Subject: Re: Bandsaw Dan, I think it's a matter of efficiency and how much it pain's you to abuse your woodworking tools. Recently I was using a hacksaw to whack off a piece of ½ aluminum plate when the old tennis elbow kicked in. Took the piece over to the Dremel jig saw and found out that if it was flooded with cutting fluid it would cut, (slowly). Without fluid, nothing, but give it a squirt and it would take a bite. Slow but painless (to my elbow) and the blades are cheap and expendable. Them remembered that I had some metal cutting blades for the saber saw (stubby hacksaw blades) and tried that. Worked better, but still slow. Been thinking about one of those Harbor Freight cutoff saws, but really can't justify one. BTW Question: When did my jigsaw become known as a scroll saw and my saber saw become known as a jigsaw? I must have been asleep at the switch and let that one slip past me. Al Lenz ------- Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2003 12:20:09 -0400 From: "Ron Ginger" Subject: Re: Bandsaw I always cut aluminum and brass plate on my table saw. I use a carbide blade and it cuts like butter. Just watch the chips- they come off fast and hurt. Obviously long sleeves and face protection is required. Almost all commercial aluminum stock is cut by table saws. A wood bandsaw will cut steel just fine if you can slow it down enough. I added a jackshaft and pulleys to mine years ago, but eventualy got a metal bandsaw. For under $200 at most of the import suppliers these are really worth the money. Just get a good blade. Remember in a bandsaw you need to be sure at least a couple teeth are in the stock at al times- if you try to cut real thin stuff, smaller than a tooth pitch, you wind up with the stock stuck between two teeth and rip teeth off the blade. ron ginger ------- Date: Tue, 07 Oct 2003 19:23:28 -0700 From: k6sufx~xxdirecway.com Subject: Re: Metal Cutting Band Saw Blades Hi Bob: Sure you will have to slack off the tension to change blades. But the manual that came with the saw (and on my wood saw) it says to loosen the tension when not in use. So after my first test cut in a piece of mild steel I turned the tension screw to loosen the blade a bit. But, for the first mistake I have made last month, I forgot to tighten when I needed to cut off a bit of key stock. The blade flew off the wheels and I kept putting it back on, played with the alignment a few times and then put out a cry for help on the users group (Yahoo in groups under 4X6 bandsaw) and got the hint to really tighten down on the tension and now the saw is working fine again. The blade is quite a bit thicker than the blades for my little three wheel bench top wood bandsaw so is harder to handle without getting a bit scratched up. (felt as if I was rassling aleegators in the swamp) I figure one reason to take the tension off the blade on the wood saw is the rubber tires on the wheels, well the HF metal saw has no tires the blade runs directly on the wheel metal. What I really wanted (and may cobble one up someday) was a power hack saw as I like to build locomotives and most loco frames are cut from 1/4 to 1/2 inch thick steel and have a lot of cutouts. A hacksaw is better than a bandsaw for cutouts as you can take the blade off and thread it through a pilot hole or slot and make those cut outs with a minimum of hand hacksaw and file work. ------- Date: Sun, 02 Nov 2003 18:42:40 -0500 From: Ronald Thibault Subject: Re: FAQ needed -- Bandsaw blades? >Got my 4 X 6 Harbor Freight bandsaw up and running. The blade it came >with, is next to useless. What blades are you guys using on your saws?? I've used the bi-metal blades the standard mail order places sell with excellent results. I also have used the standard Starett blades, as they are available locally. They do not last quite as long, but are less expensive. ------- Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2003 17:07:58 EST From: Rollin45x~xxaol.com Subject: Re: FAQ needed -- Bandsaw blades? I don't know if Lennox makes a blade that will fit, but for my money Lennox bi-metal band saw blades cannot be beat. Simmons comes a close second. I use a portable bandsaw at work all the time and use them hard, Lennox blades are the best I have found. steve ------- Date: Sun, 02 Nov 2003 17:17:12 -0600 From: Jon Elson Subject: Re: FAQ needed -- Bandsaw blades? I bought 100' rolls of the 10 and 18 TPI carbon-steel blades from Enco. They work, and I abuse the saw and blades so much with odd materials, pieces too big to cut right, etc. that it would be a big waste to get fancy bimetal or other blades. (Of course, you need access to a blade welder, or get good at the silver solder technique. Jon ------- Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2003 04:26:04 -0000 From: "mmurray701" Subject: Re: Slitting Saw speed --- In taigtoolsx~xxyahoogroups.com, "effexir" wrote: > I purchased 2 slitting saws from Enco, 1 is 2" diameter 1/16" thick > and the other one is 2" and 1/8" thick. Does any one know what > speeds these should be run at to cut aluminum and steel. I havent > seen any information on them anywhere. Thanks for the help. Slowest speed possible for Aluminium, and you wont be able to cut steel. Simply cant get it slow enough with the stock motor. If you have a variable speed motor you could do it, go VERY slow (~150 RPM). Slitting saws are very touchy things to use. You NEED lubricant on it constantly. Kerosene and WD-40 work well for Aluminium, the water based coolants dont cut it. This part about coolant is crutial. Feed it slowly. And if you need to make a long cut, take several light passes instead of one deep cut. When taking long, deep cuts the blade tends to slighly rise or fall from your actual Z value. It will be more accurate with a couple of passes. Do your saws have offset (staggered) teeth like a wood saw blade, or are they all straight? I'm used to using the Taig slitting saw 2.5 dia x 0.032" and all straight teeth. I'm not sure how yours will cut compared to the Taig. I'm thinking you may find the 1/8th saw a challenge on a machine like the Taig. Good luck! Mark ------- Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2003 08:39:36 +0000 From: Tony Jeffree Subject: Re: Re: Slitting Saw speed I've used the Taig slitting saw a few times & can only echo Mark's comments about speeds and lubrication. If you get it wrong, all sorts of exciting and unpleasant things can happen, ranging from the blade jamming to the cut drifting significantly off line. The thing to bear in mind is that with a slitting saw, there's no-where for the swarf to go until the tooth that removed it emerges at the far end of the cut, so the maximum amount of metal that one tooth can remove in a single pass is what you can "store" in the space between it and its next-door neighbor. If you attempt to cut more rapidly than that, the cut will get jammed up with swarf, and the result will be (at best) a bad finish on the cut, and (at worst) severe damage to the workpiece, saw, and possibly the mill. Regards, Tony ------- Date: Sat, 29 Nov 2003 13:40:25 -1000 (HST) From: Tom Benedict Subject: Re: Slitting Saw speed Something else regarding slit saws: When I first used the one from Taig, I was alarmed to hear it going "zzZZzz..ing! zzZZzz..ing!" It was the most uneven sound I'd ever heard from a cutter, but it appeared to be cutting pretty evenly. This kinda spooked me, despite the beautiful cut I got out of it. (This was AFTER I learned the importance of lubricant. Without lube it jammed every time and produced a rotten cut.) Anyway, a few months ago I was flipping through one of the Machinist's Bedside Readers (volume 3, I think) and I ran across a reference to the same problem. Turns out Guy Lautard was also alarmed at the uneven cutting sound he got from his slit saw. He was a lot more driven than me and did everything he could to balance the cutter out, but to no avail. Cutting to the chase (and trying to entice people to pick up a copy of his book, which is quite good), he discovered you can't completely balance them out. They're so dang big they never heat up evenly, so the second you start cutting with a theoretically perfectly balanced slit saw, it distorts and unbalances. You do what you can. The cut from one at rock bottom spindle speed, slow feed, and lots of lube, is excellent. I never tried soluble oil on mine, but lanolin worked great. (Don't ask... The lanolin was a holdover from when I did a CNC drilling sequence with a couple hundred holes. I spot drilled all the holes, packed them with lanolin, and let the machine go. It worked quite well, the finish was great, but that was the worst cleanup I've ever had to do on my mill. I'm glad I picked up a mist coolant system. If it won't work with the slit saw, I'll resort to tapping fluid or... gulp...lanolin.) Tom ------- Date: Thu, 25 Dec 2003 11:22:43 -0800 From: Don Rogers Subject: Re: Digest Number 1290 [taigtools group] >but I bought a roll of that 'Shim in a Can' stuff and >after cutting out all the squares they have a bit of the >curvature left in them. Is there any easy way to flatten >them before machining. I will be using about 0.005 inch >clearance, and an oblong shape after machining will probably >be a problem as will any curvature in the 'flat' dimension. Any ideas? >Could a person sort of heat treat them in an oven or something? There are two issues with curl in your shim stock. The first is introduced from being rolled. This can be removed by reversing the roll. The way this is accomplished is to run the stock through a three roller rolling mill, and with trial and error, you find the setting that removes the curl and you end up with a flat sheet. Simply rolling in reverse to the original roll might work, but your would have to use a smaller mandrel and who knows exactly which size would give you the correct amount of bend. The second issue is the distortion induced by cutting the stock. The least distortion will be had by cutting it with a square shear, although finding one that is sharp enough and set up to the very tight clearance required to cut stainless steel shim is going to be fun. Cutting with tin snips, or other type of hand cutters will almost always result in a slight curl along the edge that will induce enough tension to cause the piece to warp. I recently needed a 7" diameter of 22ga Stainless that was flat. I had a friend cut one with his plasma cutter. There was less than 3/32" of burn around the edge, but that was enough to warp the piece, I ended up with a 7" clicker. I tried to reduce the stress by placing it in my Kiln and taking it up to 900F for a couple hours and then let it come back to room temperature without opening the door. The result of this treatment was absolutely nothing changed. Perhaps if I had taken it up to say 1200F it might have done something, but at that point, you start to get oxidation on the stainless. I have wondered what would have happened if I had ground the burnt edge off, if that would have released the stress. Don -------- Date: Fri, 31 Dec 2004 15:40:37 -0800 From: Rick Voegelin Subject: Re: Cutting raw material [taigtools group] > the band saw, with the blade that came with it is slooow. > All of you deal with this everyday. How do you do it? Wayne, there is an excellent Yahoo group devoted to the much loved/much abused HF 4x6 bandsaws and their cousins (not surprisingly listed as 4x6 bandsaw). As with all things mechanical, you can find numerous ways to modify your bandsaw to amaze and delight your friends. Check out the 4x6 group files and archives for information on topics ranging from homebuilt recirculating cooling systems and hydraulic downfeeds to how to reinforce the cheesy sheetmetal stand. The general consensus on the 4x6 group is that one should immediately replace the HF blade with a proper bimetal blade. Install a Lenox Diemaster II bi-metal 10-14 blade (about $20 from MSC), adjust the blade tension as tight as you can, put the belt on the middle pulley, adjust the downforce to about 6 pounds, and let 'er rip. You'll need a 1/2" x 64-1/2" x .025" blade or thereabout for the generic 4x6 bandsaw. I intend to make all of the recommended improvements to my 4x6 bandsaw just as soon as I complete all of the modifications to my Taig lathe and the 7x12 minilathe and the HF micro-mill and . . . Hope this helps, Rick Voegelin ------- Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2005 12:47:06 -0400 From: "S or J" Subject: Metal Cutting Tools [Prints_and_Plans group] Changed the subject, as Re: Digest #xxx helps no one in the future trying to search for metal cutting in the Subject line of archived messages. This discussion has become one of the classic power hacksaw versus bandsaw debates. Here are a few thoughts in no particular order as to metal-cutting alternatives. Trying to be brief but practical. Don't forget safety glasses and equipment and principles. And never do anything you do not personally know to be safe. Have seen a couple of home-made power hacksaws in dusty corners of workshops, while relatively inexpensive and efficient 4" X 6" power bandsaws were now in frequent use. The owners said the hacksaws worked but were a bit of a nuisance to set up, had limited capacity for dealing with large metal pipes, and could only do straight line cuts. The imported bandsaws needed a bit of tuning (change lube to synthetic gear oil, use a quality American bimetallic blade, and make a sturdy stand) but then did excellent work for cutoffs, and could do freehand curved cuts on the table (better braced now). They could also do some serviceable wood cutting for persons without a wood bandsaw. I had an outdoor project involving cutting lots of 1/2" steel bars and angle iron (nasty, lumpy, with hard spots). Was using a metal cut off saw, which works by abrasion cutting with a special blade. Nearly set the garage on fire from the spark stream before moving outdoors. Then burnt out the saw motor. The cuts were not clean, and needed filing to true the ends. Ended up using an Armstrong hacksaw to finish. Found a metal bandsaw on sale, bought it, did the above mentioned mods, and would never give it up. Never. Much nicer cuts than the abrasive cutoff saws and no Fire Dept sirens. Some folks use their standard wood bandsaws for cutting softer metals like aluminium. Lowest pulley speed and lube the blade (beeswax) and don't use too low a TPI. Haven't needed to try this option. Have cut some aluminium flat and angle stock on my radial arm saw by moving the carbide saw blade (while off) forward, clamping the metal to the table and fence, and cutting by pushing the now-on saw back through the metal. Normal cutting direction would jam the blade and lead to potential disaster/ dismemberment and cause unnecessary blood corrosion to innocent tools. Same backward cuts can be made on a sliding mitre saw. Must admit that this process raises my pulse rate considerably; perhaps I will get an expendable brother-in-law to come over, set up the cut, and let him do it while I attend to something in another room I just remembered. [NOTE TO FILE: While I and others have used radial and mitre saws to cut aluminium or other soft metals, for safety reasons such practice cannot be recommended. Spend a bit of money for the power metal bandsaw and cut this stuff more safely. Any metal cutting is inherently hazardous, even with handtools.] The suggested chain drilling for internal holes unsuitable for a bandsaw -- followed by use of a hacksaw, power or manual, is traditional and works well. It usually needs a lot of hand filing afterwards, tedious unless you have bought/built a power file. But you did vow on 1 January to get into better shape... The natural, but expensive, alternative is a milling machine that will plunge cut and then mill out the holes. Actually they are not all that expensive depending on size needed, and a benchtop version will also do all your drilling -- thus saving the cost of a drill press. Even a small machine can do big work if done in incremental stages/depths. Some folks (including Rudy Kouhoupt) have done light metal milling using a drill press. The danger here is that drill presses have bearings designed for straight axial loads as in drilling, and not the radial side-thrust bearings used for milling machines. They can suddenly have the drill chuck part company with the drill press arbor and dance around the shop, while you had better be dancing just as fast out of its way. There is a mod suggested somewhere to remove the chuck jaws, set a tap clearance drill bit standing up in a vice on the table, and gently drill through the chuck. Follow by a drill for the tap size into the quill; then tap the quill, then bolt the chuck to the quill. Assumes the chuck and quill design can have this modification, and there is room behind the jaws for the bolt head. While such a modification would keep the chuck from coming off unintention- ally, it does not solve the bearing type problem that will give increased wear, and eventual sloppiness, to the drill press's operations. Same caution about incremental approach. A wood router can use suitable routing or milling bits to do light duty cutting of aluminium, including internal holes or pockets. Needs a well prepared setup with the work firmly clamped. Only precise routing guide templates ensure precision results. Same caution about incremental approach. If I had to cut a great many internal holes in a project, I would likely contract it out to a local company using CNC milling or plasma cutting. There are many more machine and hand tool variants, but I am going to stop here and let others pitch in. Too busy to write a book. But there are good books out there, including at the local library. And everyone here knows what a great information resource we have at some internet commercial and private metalworking sites. Steve -- in Thunder Bay, Ontario, Canada Machining and Metalworking at Home http://www.janellestudio.com/metal/ ------- Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2005 14:58:35 -1000 (HST) From: benedict-listx~xxhawaii.rr.com Subject: Re: i seek wisdom on parting-off methods/tools [taigtools] On Sat, 24 Sep 2005, juangelt wrote: > i'm quite new to the lathe, but i want to know a lot- fast! lol right > now i'm slicing up 14 tooth brass gear stock to make backlash adjusters > as i cnc some taig lathes. this is fairly expensive material and any way > to reduce the kerf would be very welcome. plz be loquacious and even > prolix - i'd like to hear as much as possible > - alternative means of parting, like a jewellers saw that has minuscule > kerf doesn't do much for flatness. using a dremel cutoff saw is pretty > good but not if the material is thick at all - like this 3/4 brass. The jeweler's saw would work well if you can later face off the gears. But getting the faces flat, parallel, and perpendicular to the gear teeth would be an interesting prospect. > i'm using a hand ground cobalt steel blade that's a bit over 1/16 wide > kerf - is this excessively thin already for a parting blade? can i get > even thinner without breaking a lot (i only have one parting too atm!) It's not too far out of the ordinary. I've got an 0.060" I use for most jobs. What diameter material are you talking about? > what's a good source of parting tools - best material (hss?) Mine's HSS. It's what I know, you know? You can get inserted carbide parting tools, but on brass there's not much point. Besides, they tend to be thicker than the HSS blade I have. Mine came from Taig, but you can get them from most of the major tool suppliers. Enco, Granger, MSC, Blue Ridge, all of those should have them. > since i'm on brass, i'm playing with rake and approach. still trying to > get chatter free, but i'm not between centers - that might be my main > prob. there, actually... Brass takes a zero rake tool, though you'll need some front relief and side relief. A HSS parting tool blank should have the side relief ground in from the get-go. > now that i've got to do cutoff for dozens and dozens of parts - this > matters a lot! Thanks for any & all tips/tricks/hints! I'll throw one out. I haven't done this, so read that for what it's worth: In "Building the Shay" Kozo Hiraoka says he gets good results using old hacksaw blades. Grind the teeth off, remove any paint, & grind on a front relief. I don't think he uses them for parting, more for E-ring grooves. Depending on the size of the bar stock, I'd be more or less inclined to try this. (1/4", sure! What the heck? 1", probably not.) If the diameter is small, I'm betting you can grind thinner than you're using. Still, I'd be inclined to find a commercial blade that would do the job. Enco lists an 0.040" in HSS (397-7503 for $11.97). The smallest of the carbide insert cutoff tools is a lot thicker (0.087" cut width.) If the stock is small enoug hto use a grooving tool, you can get carbide insert grooving tools down to 0.039". Still, I'd go with the 0.040" HSS parting blade. Tom ------- Date: Sun, 04 Dec 2005 04:33:17 -0000 From: "andy_kino" Subject: Re: metal cutting question (brass)DONE and Thanks! andy_kino wrote: > >Any of you ever tried to cut brass sheet 1/16 thick with a table saw? > >I'm trying to figure a way to cut brass sheet accurately. The throat > >of my bandsaw isnt wide enough. Is there a circular saw blade that > >will do the job? I would hate to do this with a jig saw. > >Opinions? Thanks. In atlas_craftsmanx~xxyahoogroups.com, Steven Harris wrote: > I have cut alum, brass, and copper with my table saw and compound miter > saw. The trick is a fine tooth carbide blade and nice slow feeds (let > the saw do the work do not force it). Cutting something thin like the > sheet you are describing I would use some plywood under the sheet. That > would make it easier to move without bending and it should give you a > nice clean cut without rolling the edge. I would try a test piece before > trying the critical piece. Hope this helps, Steve Well, I did the job today and it turned out wonderfully. I took the advice and made up a plywood base for sliding across the table saw, and tried the cut with a plain vanilla plywood paneling blade. Aside from moving slow, the brass got a bit hot and began to discolor. Quickening the pace eliminated discoloration, but it was a fine line between feed rate and heat. The cut looks way better than a shear would have done. No rolled edge at all. Got to remember this. Thanks, Andy ------- NOTE TO FILE: The following thread comes from the taigtools newsgroup at Yahoo relating to experience with the small metal bandsaws as have already been discussed earlier in this file. Some good tips. And for those still cutting with hand power, or fire-belching abrasive cutoff tools, these little bandsaws will be a pleasant surprise. Sure they have a few tuning issues, but they are well worth the minor effort. Personally, I would never do metalwork again without one. ------- Re: band saw [taigtools] Posted by: "Clive Foster" clive_fosterx~xxtalk21.com Date: Thu Jan 11, 2007 3:38 am ((PST)) Mine isn't HF and is a very early version of the same generic design being bought only a coupla years after these beasts were first brought into the UK. I found the adjustments finicky and, in the case of the blade support rollers inadequate. I eventually made new eccentric holders for the pinch bearings with more throw so I could get the blade properly held. I also went through the rest of the adjustments modifying as required so that the various bits lined up correctly and the movements were, as far as possible pulling co-linear with the bits being moved. Turned the thing from swear word generator and "boat anchor if I could afford to bin it" into something reasonably useable. Blade still comes off occasionally but I can live with it as I don't use every day. Don't forget that the top wheel on these things is effectively floating and the blade tension pulls it into alignment with the drive wheel. There is a lot of adjustment up top but it's important that the drive wheel face and flange align the blade correctly with the lower set of blade alignment bearings. If you have a good pinch on the lower support rollers, it's obvious when the lower drive wheel is out because the blade wanders around on it like a drunken sailor. Need the top support rollers a bit loose to really see this. If the pinch is inadequate the blade twists as it goes through so disguising the problem and guaranteeing regular jump offs. Also check the alignment of the sliding arms carrying the support rollers. The arm support spring thingy is pretty hopeless as standard being in the "sort-of works" class. Improving the abutment helps; best cure would be some sort of hydraulic arrangement like the big boys. A good looking hydraulic arrangement has been written-up in the Village Press publications. I've not gone that far as I've obtained a Rapidor power hacksaw which will take over cut off duties when refurbed and will get a proper bench band-saw. Good quality blades help a lot too. Far as I can see current versions are a lot better so it's unlikely that you will have all the problems but general word is that a bit of post purchase fettling in the right areas helps a lot and greatly improves the user experience. Well it's cheap Chinee, wadda you expect! Spending a day or two getting it right before putting into service beats the heck out of fiddling forever after. Worth it as the basic machines are durable. Mine is well over twenty years old and I knew of some doing a decade or so in industrial shops, second line duties but still lots of use. HTH Clive ------- Re: band saw Posted by: "Roy" rx~xxshred2.net Date: Thu Jan 11, 2007 6:34 am ((PST)) They aren't a lot better, but are improving. There's a 4x6 bandsaw yahoogroup that has the entire knowledge of the world on these saws, including some great tuning and modification tips. I've got one and use it basically as an unattended power hacksaw whacking lengths of stock (steel, wood, plastic, etc.) into smaller rough. For that it works great. Roy ------- Re: band saw Posted by: "luv2bsailin" luv2bsailinx~xxyahoo.com Date: Thu Jan 11, 2007 2:32 pm ((PST)) Hi Guys: This is a very ON-topic subject for me. I bought a HF bandsaw (the green version) a couple months ago, and was quite happy with it until it stripped its drive gear. It's a rough cast brass gear driven by a steel worm in an oil bath. The oil was completely loaded with brass dust and looked like mud. I don't know if it was just cheap brass, rough worm gear, poor alignment, low oil, or what, but it lasted less than 10 hours of use. I would recommend checking the gearbox often if you have one of those. Then I discovered Milwaukee's "deep-cut" portable bandsaws and plunked down about $300 for one. I love this thing. It cuts WAY faster than the HF. I made a little table for benchtop use, similar to this one: http://cgi.ebay.com/VERTICAL-BANDSAW-STAND-4-MILWAUKEE-OR-PORTER- CABLE-SAW_W0QQitemZ290070364045QQihZ019QQcategoryZ42296QQssPageNa meZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem My table is wood, and a little crude, but you get the idea. This set-up is especially nice for me due to my limited shop space (6x7 feet in the back of my RV). You also see the saws regularily on e-bay. Just search on "Milwaukee Bandsaw". I've got the variable-speed version. One advantage of this option I didn't anticipate is that you can run it slow to keep the noise down. It's a bit loud at high speeds. Also, watch your fingers and use a push-block or something. These things will really cut meat (don't ask). One limitation is that the blade is twisted 45 degrees as it runs through the guide rollers. Great for cutting off long stock up to 4x4, but you can't really "rip" a long strip off the edge of a sheet. Basically you're limited to about a 4 inch square when cutting flat stock on the table. Hand-held, you can get well over 5 inches on thinner flat stock by tilting the saw. It goes through 1/2 inch 6061-T651 like butter, and a welder guy I know says he routinely cuts 4-inch heavy wall steel pipe with his. Jim (Sorry if I sound like a Milwaukee salesman. I'm not.) ------- How to cut and drill PC board [sherline] Posted by: "Alan Haisley" alanhyx~xxadelphia.net Date: Mon Apr 2, 2007 10:59 am ((PDT)) I have some double sided PC board blank from Radio Shack. The substrate is glass fiber in epoxy. I'm not doing production work here, but one of (or perhaps three of) projects. I suspect that either carbon steel or high speed steel won't be of much use after cutting or drilling this stuff, but, except for woodworking router bits I have no carbide. So, the question is: what do I sacrifice? hacksaw blades perhaps? Also, if I were doing this for real in larger quantities what should I buy and use? Alan Haisley ------- Re: How to cut and drill PC board Posted by: "David Clark" dcclark111x~xxcomcast.net Date: Mon Apr 2, 2007 11:17 am ((PDT)) Hello Alan: It's been quite a few years, but I have had good success on PC board with dental drills and burrs I got from some surplus catalog. They made really good miniature drills and mills, got a couple hundred for a few bucks, just threw them away after each use. DC ------- Re: How to cut and drill PC board Posted by: "Jerry G" chieftoolmakerx~xxearthlink.net Date: Mon Apr 2, 2007 11:23 am ((PDT)) Hi Alan: Fiberglass PC boards are tough. I used to modify those boards a lot when employed by Loral Fairchild. For drilling, MSC or McMaster Carr supply circuit board drills....(Solid Carbide) 1/8" shank and many diameters available. For cutting, I had set up a table saw with a specially sharpened carbide blade. Suggestion... Use a Dremel type tool with a diamond wheel (double sided). Or you can score the board and carefully snap it to size along the scribe mark. In any case, protective goggles, mask to filter the harmful particles. To smooth the edges, an abrasive sanding belt with Aluminum Oxide will work. For large quantities, I would buy a small shear. Regards, Jerry G (Glickstein) ------- Cutting Drill Rod [sherline] Posted by: "BH" bradellsx~xxgmail.com Date: Mon Apr 2, 2007 1:24 pm ((PDT)) Hi All, Long time reader. I've slowly come back to this lovely little hobby as spare time allows, and I recently purchased a 9" bandsaw. I'm using a 18 tooth metal blade, and have been cutting aluminum with it lately (such a joy, my arm already loves the purchase). Today, I wanted to cut a chunk of 1/4" OD Drill Rod. This usually doesn't present a problem with the trusty old hack saw, but it just killed the teeth on the bandsaw blade while barely making much of a cut. What should I be looking at for a blade to cut this with? My blade length is 59-1/2" (to keep in mind with suggestions). Or is this material not suited for this, but rather a metal chop saw? The hardest material that I'd expect to ever cut though with this saw would be 3/8" Drill Rod (currently a bar of o1) to make some cutters for the mill. ------- Re: Cutting Drill Rod Posted by: "David Clark" dcclark111x~xxcomcast.net Date: Mon Apr 2, 2007 3:17 pm ((PDT)) For all ferous metals other than 12L14 I use an abrasive disk for metals in a small miter saw. Spray coolant just to hold down the sparks and fire & brimstone smell. I likewise have a 9" bandsaw that takes a 59-1/2" blade, possibly the same one (Delta). I use a variable tooth, bi-metal blade from MacMaster- Carr p/n 4179A878 and a spray coolant. This glides through 12L14, brass, and aluminum, leaving a cut surface that looks like it was milled. I've cut up to 4" diameter 6061 with no problem. Blades last a long time. Still, one of these years, I'll get around to making a new set of drive pulleys to slow it down by about half. Should work even better. Might even be able to cut harder steels, but don't see much point in risking a $20 blade to find out. DC ------- Re: Cutting Drill Rod Posted by: "Jerry G" chieftoolmakerx~xxearthlink.net Date: Mon Apr 2, 2007 3:18 pm ((PDT)) Hi BH: First,What cutting speed? How many surface feet per minute, etc. Do you have a variable speed? Should be no difference between 1/4" or 3/8". Steel of 01 should cut OK, providing you do not exceed the recommended SFPM. A bi metal blade is good. Check out recommendations (on the Internet) for suitable suppliers. MSC or McMasterCarr. (No commercial connection.) Use a clamp or toolmakers clamp on the drill rod to prevent spinning while cutting. Don't force the cut. Safety goggles, of course. Adjustable saw guides? Set them to just clear the work and guide the saw blade well. Later, Jerry G (Glickstein) ------- Re: Cutting Drill Rod Posted by: "BH" bradellsx~xxgmail.com Date: Mon Apr 2, 2007 6:23 pm ((PDT)) Hi Jerry G: Well, that may be the big item right there ... Currently it's on its lowest setting, at 1400 sfm, and doing a quick glance at the machinists handbook, it says to look for 100-150 sfm, and 8-16 tpi blades, neither of which I can do at the moment (although, I do have 10 tpi blades on order already). Hmmm, maybe time to hit up the old highschool to turn a few larger pulleys to get the speed down (and steal their mill for an afternoon for some new vice bodies too)... or what about being really cheesy and using a voltage regulator and running the bandsaw at a lower voltage? (aside from the possible lack of torque at that voltage probably at 1/10 the speed it currently runs at). I'd really hate to have to change pulleys in order to cut my stock (as I do quite a bit with 6061, and C1018), and a 2nd saw isn't an option, I've already run out of space as it is! lol Brad ------- Re: Cutting Drill Rod Posted by: "Paul W. Chamberlain" pwcx~xxcapcocons.com Date: Mon Apr 2, 2007 6:50 pm ((PDT)) You may have a DC motor with a speed control circuit (my Craftsman 11" 3-wheel bandsaw does). If so, you don't want to play with the input voltage. If the motor has round brush caps near the end of the motor housing, then it's DC. Paul, Central OR ------- Re: Cutting Drill Rod Posted by: "Jerry G" chieftoolmakerx~xxearthlink.net Date: Mon Apr 2, 2007 6:59 pm ((PDT)) BH: My suggestion based on your statement. Back to the "armstrong" hacksaw. In Bulova there was a supervisor who insisted that everyone cut any stock smaller than 3/4" by hand with a hacksaw. I never heard of any fatalities as a result of that practice.... :) Jerry G (Glickstein) ------- Re: Cutting Drill Rod Posted by: "Pierre Coueffin" pcoueffinx~xxgmail.com Date: Fri Apr 20, 2007 5:09 am ((PDT)) On 4/2/07, David Wood wrote: > But I hope a bean counter caught him for wasting so many expensive > manhours with such a ridiculous practice. If it takes more than 5 minutes to go through 1/4" of steel rod with a hacksaw, then there is something very wrong. Either you've got hardened steel (does a file scratch it?) or your hacksaw blade is cheap/dull, or your technique is lacking (short strokes/bad pressure/angle). I spent a lot of years using a hacksaw wrong, then one day I read Bill Holmes' books on firearms and learned how to do it right. The proper use of one is well worth learning, since you can often do small or hard to set-up jobs in less time than it would take you to dis-assemble a part from the larger machine, and get it set up on a mill/shaper. Also for any part that is plain too big to fit on your current machine tools, hacksaws and files can still save the day. ------- Re: Cutting Drill Rod Posted by: "Alan Haisley" alanhyx~xxadelphia.net Date: Mon Apr 2, 2007 10:31 pm ((PDT)) Remember when picking blades that you want to keep about three teeth at least on the work. Also remember that there is no harm in cutting slower than the recommendation. I'm not sure that a 10 tpi blade is a good idea for use with 1/4" diameter material. The 18 tpi should be fine. I have cut steel, brass, bronze, and aluminum with an 18 tpi blade using my HF metal bandsaw. It cuts slower than a 14 tpi blade but gives a smoother cut for me. Alan Haisley ------- Re: Cutting Drill Rod Posted by: "Jerry G" chieftoolmakerx~xxearthlink.net Date: Tue Apr 3, 2007 12:43 am ((PDT)) Hi Alan, BH, More like at least six teeth... For the hacksaw, 24 teeth is cool. 32 Teeth for thin sheet metal. Actually for thin sheet metal, a Wiss metal snip (shears) is better. Jerry G (Glickstein) ------- Re: Bandsaw Questions [LittleEngines] Posted by: "leasingham_connelly" martin.connellyx~xxsiemens.com Date: Mon Mar 10, 2008 7:47 am ((PDT)) "yangwuchenchiaolin" wrote: > Any advice for someone looking to add a metal cutting Bandsaw to his > shop. I do mostly aluminium and brass work but occasionally have to > cut steal. What should I be looking for, what questions should I be > asking, what features should I insist on? Thanks in advance, David I can only speak from experience with industrial size bandsaws but some of the details should transfer. In order to get a straight cut the blade guides need to be good. They can be solid or rollers. Make sure they are replaceable and adjustable to be able to keep the blade correctly guided. If solid are they carbide? This lasts far longer than a piece of steel. Rollers will out-last solid guides if treated correctly. Deeper blades also give a straighter cut than a shallow one. If you have a choice go for the one with the deepest blade. Tension needs to be correct. A blade tension indicator of some sort (may only be an engraved line and a pointer) is useful here or a torque figure if possible for the tensioner. Controlled descent is also important for a straight cut. If the blade is pushed thru too fast it will start to wander off line. Control may be from some sort of spring with adjustable sliding weight or a hydraulic ram. A laser showing where the line of cut will go is a useful feature. You may find it hard to get a budget bandsaw with this on but it is fairly easy to get hold of a cheap laser level with the ability to project a line and add it to a bandsaw. If you don't have this but may want it make sure there is somewhere to mount it in the future. A good lubricant is a must for long life of guides and blades. I think there are wax sticks that I have seen recomended in some forums for smaller machines (larger ones tend to have flood coolant, unlikely in a small machine). Martin ------- Re: Bandsaw Questions Posted by: "a3sigma" dcclark111x~xxcomcast.net Date: Mon Mar 10, 2008 10:02 am ((PDT)) It depends on what you're doing with it. I do mostly clock making and small steam and Stirlings from bar stock. For roughing out gear blanks and clock plates from brass and aluminum, usually 1/8" thick or less, I use a 9" Delta vertical saw with a 1/4" wide blade. That's about as good as a jig saw for light contouring. Many of my engine components are made from Mic 6 aluminum tooling plate up to 1/2" thick. The Delta glides through that as well. I've equipped it with a spray mist coolant powered by an air brush compressor, and attached my shop vac with PVC and rubber tubing and hose clamps. A gravity fed horizontal saw with a wide blade is totally unsuitable for this kind of roughing out. Even though many of them can be converted to a vertical configuration, often the blade is too wide and the speed is too slow for such work. The Delta is far too fast, however, to cut ferris metals. To cut steel and iron bar, and brass bar over 1" diameter, I've long been using an abrasive disk in a chop saw. This is just fine for occasional use. Recently, though, I've had to cut up a largish quantity of 12L14 and gray cast iron, so decided to spring for a horizontal saw. I took a chance on an El-Cheapo, $160 Chinese special from Harbor Freight. So far, I'm finding it a good value. Solidly made, smooth running. I think it will do fine for no more mileage than I expect to be putting on it. Buy good blades for whatever saw you have. I use bi-metal, variable pitch, variable set blades. For my saws they're only about $25 each. Always keep a spare on hand. You will roach a blade now and then, and there are few things more dangerous than a worn band saw blade. Even the dullest one is still capable of trimming your fingernails to the second knuckle, and the excessive force employed in trying to use a dull blade makes accidents much more likely. The blade should glide through the work with very little pressure. If it doesn't, something is not right. Stop immediately and fix it. I'll be happy to post some photos of my saws and how I have them set up, if anyone's interested. Regards, DC ------- Re: Bandsaw Questions Posted by: "Mark Kenworthy" markx~xxkenworthymachine.com Date: Mon Mar 10, 2008 11:34 am ((PDT)) Hi David - We use a small Grizzly bandsaw for a lot of our small cuts (we have a Do-All automatic saw that we use for most production cuts). This is the model we use and we're happy with it as a lower cost bandsaw: http://www.grizzly.com/products/4-x-6-Metal-Cutting-Bandsaw-w-Swivel- Head/G9742 The best "upgrade" we have made to that saw is purchasing some Lenox Diemaster 2 blades for it. They last much longer and cut much faster (~3x the import bi-metal blades we used to use with it). We've only used the swivel head a couple times, but it was nice to have when we needed it for those jobs. Hope this helps! Mark ------- Band saw Posted by: "Carl" bayhousex~xxhughes.net Date: Mon Mar 10, 2008 9:07 am ((PDT)) David. There is a Yahoo group dedicated to band saws. It's the 4x6 bandsaw group. You will find much information about the purchase and modification of the small band saws. There are a lot of pictures of modifications and instructions for the setup and adjustment of the saws. You should find the site useful. Hope this helps. Have a great day. Carl Felty ------- Shortening HSS Rod [MyMyford] Posted by: "furkaoberalp" a.websterx~xxsympatico.ca Date: Sun Jul 13, 2008 10:16 am ((PDT)) I need to cut some 1/4" HSS rod to length. In the past I sliced HSS through with a rotary hand tool, killing many cut-off disks. Is there a better way? In fact, can I notch-and-snap using great violence? Andrew ------- Re: Shortening HSS Rod Posted by: "Ken Strauss" ken.straussx~xxsympatico.ca Date: Sun Jul 13, 2008 10:21 am ((PDT)) I've often notched square HSS bits with a AOX wheel on the grinder, secured the bit in a vise and clamped the other end in a pair of ViseGrips and snapped the bar. It is my normal way of cutting short bits for a boring bar. I don't see why it won't work with round stock. ------- Re: Shortening HSS Rod Posted by: "tr0up" a.troupx~xxemail.com Date: Mon Jul 14, 2008 12:23 am ((PDT)) The notching is indispensable (ideally as sharp as possible at the root), but the violence can be got around. The best way I know to snap off hardened tool steel after notching is to put it in the vice with packers (eg short offcuts of round bar) at each end of the workpiece, between it and one jaw, and a single packer in the middle against the other jaw, on the side without the notch. The tension forces should always be on the notched side; the notch acts as a local stress raiser (the harder the material, the less deep the notch needs to be, as when cutting glass). This effectively converts the vice temporarily into a bending press, where inexorable force can be applied with very little of the 'stored energy' which makes other methods violent. It still pays to put on a safety visor, though... Having said that, I only bother using this technique for large sections; the excellent method advocated by Rich D is similar to what I'd do for a small bit for a boring bar. ------- Re: Metal Cutting Bandsaw Question ?? [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: "Elton E. (Tony) Clark" eltonclarkx~xxgmail.com Date: Fri Aug 22, 2008 8:52 pm ((PDT)) On Fri, Aug 22, 2008, woweniii wrote: > I am tired of using a hacksaw, cut-ff tool and other means to cut metal > before I can get to my projects. I stopped by Harbor Freight and found > a 4x6" bandsaw for $209.00. > (http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/Displayitem.taf? > itemnumber=93762) Anyone had any experience with this tool? > Of course my much saner wife points out that I am never satisfied > with cheaper tools and should look for a better saw. (Gotta love that > thought!!) Grizzly has what looks like the same saw (G0622) for a bit > more money. The next step up is a big one to the G4030 in the mid $700 > range. Anyone have any comments pro or con about these machines? > Thanks, William These Chinese band saws are all pretty much alike and are mostly built by "Wong Fu" which is a pretty funny name for a big ol' outfit who has supplied them to at least 12 marketers. There are two Yahoo groups devoted to them: "4x6bandsaw" and "4x6bandsawpics". There are an amazing number of enthusiastic owners very proud of their modifications and improvements . . I have one I bought in a junk yard for $20 and rebuilt with an added "Surplus Center" hydraulic feed mechanism. I couldn't do without it. Watch the ads, sometimes they are as cheap as $150. The blade guide ball bearings, 6 of them, are the same as used in skate boards & scooters and they're about $.50 each! Don't buy anything but quality bi-metallic blades -- they are fantastic. Tony in Texas ------- NOTE TO FILE: This next conversation shows some of the frustration that can arise when a bandsaw blade insists on coming off its wheels. Scott Henion's solution is one that might be applied easily when other solutions fail. This particular bandsaw is an Atlas, but this type of problem often occurs with other brands too. There are also a lot of tips elsewhere on the Internet about improving the performance of bandsaws, particularly the small imports. So far my Taiwanese 4X6 has stayed on track except for a couple of times when I forgot to put enough tension on the blade. (And don't forget to release most of the tension when you have finished.) I am going to try Scott's simple solution if blade runoff becomes a real problem. (Remember to save yourself a copy of Scott's picture of his modification.) ------- Horizontal bandsaw [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: "pflatlyne" pflatlynex~xxyahoo.com Date: Thu Dec 4, 2008 11:47 pm ((PST)) I'm at the end of my rope here. I have a horizontal bandsaw and I've gotten it all cleaned off and removed all the rust, lubed all the lubables etc. The problem is,the blade comes off the pulleys. It did this before I got it too. The previous owner replaced the rubber belts on the pulleys with electrical tape,so I assume that was the problem. I replaced them with the proper parts and it still did it. The top pulley (the adjustable, non driven one) had what I considered excessive wobble in it. I replaced the bearing. It still did it. I measured the shaft and determined it was excessively worn (or at least I thought it was excessive). I made a custom bearing with a smaller inside diameter. It still did it. I trued up the shaft,and made yet another custom bearing. it still did it. I figured it just wasn't good enough of a job. I then took shaft off. I cut off the two ends,mounted it up and carefully adjusted it until there was less than 1/1000th of runout, cut the shafts off, drilled it out and took a 2/1000ths cut to true it up. I now had the disk part with a hole in it. I pressed in place a new shaft, made to exacting specifications, but 1/1000 over 5/8" and then carefully polished to fit. THE $^x~xx% blade still comes off. My next step of course will be to make one to better than 10000th of an inch out of a hideously expensive aerospace alloy, plate the damn thing in gold, polish to spec while carefully measuring with an interferometer and then lubricate it with a special grease made to lubricate the turbines used in the propulsion systems of nuclear submarines. Either that or I'm going to take it out back and shoot it. Seriously though, what am I doing wrong? Everything else looks fine, I adjusted it as per the atlas instruction manual. Can someone with one tell me how much wobble is in their pulley? What else might cause this? Maybe I'm missing something. ------- Re: Horizontal bandsaw Posted by: "Scott Henion" shenionx~xxshdesigns.org Date: Fri Dec 5, 2008 12:00 am ((PST)) Mine is the same way. There is an adjustment on the non-driven wheel for tracking. It only worked with the blade that was on it. The previous owner had run it with the balde in backwards so it was shot. Tried 4 different blades, all come right off including the good bimetal blades. If I lay them on a flat surface you can see the weld is 1/16 higher so they were not welded straight. Each time the weld passes a wheel, it moves 1/8" out. The stock blade is thinner, that may be part of the issue. I gave up as I can't find the thinner blades. I mounted a small roller bearing in front of the lower wheel. It keeps the blade from running off. Now no more problems. ;) Here is a pic of the mod: http://shdesigns.org/Welding/Misc/wilton2.jpg Scott G. Henion Consultant Stone Mountain, GA SHDesigns http://www.shdesigns.org ------- Re: Horizontal bandsaw Posted by: "pflatlyne" pflatlynex~xxyahoo.com Date: Fri Dec 5, 2008 11:09 pm ((PST)) Wait,is yours an atlas like mine? There is no tracking adjustment on mine, just a tension. I suppose I could shim the plate the pulley shaft seats into. That would adjust the pulley if I needed to. As it sits so far I've solved the problem. The grooves milled into the original shaft to seat against the housing have a slight slant to them. If it's on backward, the band slides off. I simply turned it around, and it now works perfectly. (The pulley no longer rubs on the housing either.) It makes sense when you think about it. If the belt is not stable, it will slide off in one direction or another. If it's to the front, that's bad, but if you reverse the slant, then it tries to slide off the to the back, and seats against the ridge, so rather than trying to come off, it tries to stay on. This is exactly what you want. If your belt is coming off check the clearance of the bearing on the pulley. Now that I have it working, I'll assume everyone's problem is the same as mine. =) After all, if all you have is a hammer, every problem's a nail. The new shaft I made fits very snugly and the pulley has very little wobble. I looked up the specifications for bronze bearings. (The original shaft and bearing had nearly .01" clearance!!) Clearances are in 1/10000ths. I found that a properly fitting shaft is easy to detect. (You don't even really have to measure it.) A properly fitting shaft should only slide in if the shaft is perfectly aligned. Otherwise it feels like it's too large. It's a very distinctive feeling as it slides into place, turns freely with a little drag and has virtually no wobble. I actually learned quite a bit about how to use plain bearings with this. I actually used two bearings. I couldn't get a 7/8" OD, 5/8" ID one, so I pressed a 3/4OD bearing into a 3/4" OD bearing to make one. My blade actually seems new. I think the last person thought it was the blade. It still has the size written on it in sharpie with no wear whatsoever. The welt is perfectly smooth. You can see it but you can't feel it if you run your finger over it. Of course that was the last break I got on it. After that it seems he left it outside. There was virtually no paint left on it, just rust. Still, not bad for $35. ------- Re: Horizontal bandsaw Posted by: "pflatlyne" pflatlynex~xxyahoo.com Date: Fri Dec 5, 2008 2:33 am ((PST)) "KD" KDsalezx~xxcox.net wrote: > I cleaned mine up, painted it, sold it on eBay for $200. Now to buy a > good one with the money. TR Hopefully this big long post will help the next person who ends up with one with the same problem. Especially considering the part is something like $85 dollars from Clausing. I think I have it running now. At least when I run it by hand the band does not come off immediately like it did. What I think was happening was a combination of problems. First, the electrical tape instead of the rubber bands certainly was a problem. Once that was fixed, there was the bad bearing. The bearing was not just bad but so was the shaft. My attempts to resurface the shaft were just botched. I didn't get the tolerance tight enough. In fact, according to the a web site, which since it is on the internet must be completely 100% accurate, like the word of god direct to my screen, the tolerance on shafts for brass bearings is on the order of 10 thousandths. The shaft holder needed to be aligned carefully. Especially since I did not have any 1.5" stock handy. (I guess that's what I will call it now, it's really the wider part of the shaft itself). I aligned the flat surface to beyond the ability of my dial gauge to see, which is probably on the order of 5 ten thousandths or so. I then cut off the shaft, drilled it out with a 1/2" bit (it turned out to be .521"). I then took a light cut on the surface because it was badly scored. I finished off by taking a piece of sandpaper (upside down of course) against the ways and lapping the surface smooth. Now the hard part (well not so hard now that I know what works). I screwed this one up many times, and had several different ideas how I would do it. I tried one with a 1/2" shaft just fitting through the disc, with a head that would hold the pulley instead of a snap ring, but it was not stable enough. (Plus I screwed up the threads, but if you can't cut the threads you want, find a nut for the threads you have.) My last attempt was cut two thousandths over 5/8" on the pulley end, 0.525" on the part to be pressed into the disc, and .501" on the rest. I made the length of the 5/8" section about an inch long, the .525" section the thickness of the disk and the 1/2" section a little longer than the original shaft end (the last is not critical). I then used a piece of sandpaper to grind the .525" section to about .522" and pressed it in with my new Atlas #00 arbor press. (Making sure to do it the right way, if it has to come out I'll have to drill it out, it's in there good.) I then mounted it back up in the lathe, made sure it was centered and cut the threads. (OK really, I cut the threads first, and damaged them slightly so if I did it again I would do the threads after.) I then turned it around and ground the 5/8" end carefully until it just fit in the bearing snugly. I then took a very thin tool and, with the bearing in place, cut the groove for the snap ring. And then trimmed the end. I then tried to remove the bearing and realized that it would not come off which was a real problem because the shaft still needed an oil hole. After a lot of work with pliers, destroying the bearing, but thankfully not the shaft, I ended up carefully cutting a groove with a hacksaw blade and then splitting it with a screw driver very carefully. The oil hole drilled easily, I then made a slightly larger part at the end and pressed in the oiler I salvaged from the old shaft. I then put it together and it didn't work. It turns out, the part of the shaft that seats against the plate is not flat. It holds the shaft at a taper. I had it in backwards so the pulley was tilted the wrong way. I turned it around and it works fine (at least it seems to). This part did not seem to be in the manual, but it should have been. It might also be defective but works tilted anyway. I think it may be intentional, because someone else a few months ago said theirs "was not even straight". An arrow stamped on one side would have been really nice of them. ------- Re: Horizontal bandsaw Posted by: "Russ Kepler" russx~xxkepler-eng.com Date: Fri Dec 5, 2008 6:43 am ((PST)) 2 things - first, check to see that the wheels on which the blade runs are in the same plane as bearings supporting the blade where it cuts. There are plenty of ways that the wheels can be not wobbling but be out of the proper plane so that when the blade tries to track on the wheel it comes off. Secondly, get a decent quality blade in .025" thickness for testing. I'd suggest a good Lennox or a Starrett if you can trust the grind shop. I use Starrett carbon steel in my saw, seems a decent balance between cost and performance. ------- Re: Horizontal bandsaw Posted by: "Jon Elson" elsonx~xxpico-systems.com Date: Fri Dec 5, 2008 8:26 am ((PST)) There should be an adjusting bolt that tilts the upper wheel, so insane alignment to square is pointless. I don't think the wheels are supposed to run exactly square. I think, paradoxically, they need to be tipped a tiny bit TOWARD each other, as belts tend to climb up on a barrel. I don't know if this is the ubiquitous 4 x 6" Chinese bandsaw, but the lower wheel can walk out on the shaft. This either chews up the worm wheel or makes it jump the band. I retapped the hole for a larger setscrew, and it has been holding much better since. You might check the casting with a straightedge to see if it has been warped by excessive band tension. That could complicate any other alignment. Jon ------- Re: Horizontal bandsaw Posted by: "Joe R" jromasx~xxcolumbus.rr.com Date: Fri Dec 5, 2008 8:39 am ((PST)) I don't know if it's been mentioned but when trying to align it or any bandsaw you MUST start with a NEW blade. There's also a 4x6 yahoo bandsaw group. Most have newer chinese machines of one brand or another but I think I've seen yours mentioned. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/4x6bandsaw/ Joe R ------- Re: Horizontal bandsaw Posted by: "ACiemian" alan.ciemianx~xxgmail.com Date: Fri Dec 5, 2008 12:36 pm ((PST)) Are the wheels crowned of flat? If they are flat, putting a crown on them will definitely improve the blade tracking. Alan ------- Re: Horizontal bandsaw Posted by: "Jon Elson" elsonx~xxpico-systems.com Date: Fri Dec 5, 2008 9:37 pm ((PST)) Michael Michalski wrote: > Cant you order a blade from Clausing or Sears. > Sears lists > 042-033 14 tooth per inch saw blade : 54.79 > 042-034 10 tooth per inch saw blade : 82.99 > 042-035 24 tooth per inch saw blade : 60.59 I buy 100 foot rolls of bandsaw blade material for less than the cheapest one. I used to braze them before I snagged a blade welder on eBay. It works out to more like $5 a blade that way. Jon ------- Re: Horizontal bandsaw Posted by: "Michael Fagan" woodworker88x~xxgmail.com Date: Fri Dec 5, 2008 9:50 pm ((PST)) Or, if you have any friendly machine shop contacts, see if they would be willing to help you weld up a dozen blades. That should keep you going for a couple years. Most large bandsaws have blade welders built in, so it shouldn't be difficult for them. ------- NOTE TO FILE: There is a short explanation as to how to silver solder your own bandsaw blades in the Soldering file. The subject is "Bandsaw Blade repair" and begins in the file here on Jan 17, 2009. ------- Re: Horizontal bandsaw Posted by: "catboat15x~xxaol.com" Date: Sun Dec 7, 2008 7:52 pm ((PST)) I have that Harbor Fright bandsaw and it was also giving me fits and a lot of scratched up hands and arms. This saw has no tires on the wheels at all, just metal. The tracking adjustments are not obvious and the instructions were written by some one in China who failed his English classes. But, they do work and the best thing to do that particular bandsaw is to purchase a good blade and toss the one that comes with it. On mine, at least, the idle wheel has a flange to keep the blade from leaving the back of the wheel, but the front is smooth. The adjustments don't seem to do anything, but follow the directions and eventually they work. Without the blade being tight that upper wheel just flops around so will take a bit of trial and error to get the blade tracking. Also remember on a metal cutting bandsaw the blade is run a lot tighter than on your wood saw. ------- Re: Bandsaw question [sherline] Posted by: "Nate Lewis" nlewisx~xxwildblue.net Date: Sun Jan 18, 2009 3:38 am ((PST)) There's a yahoo group "4x6bandsaw" that has lots of helpful folks. In their files section, they have some docs on how to set up the saw, common problems, and useful mods. For the manuals, Grizzly has downloadable manuals, and their 4x6 is very like all the rest. ------- slitting saws, jeweler's saws What's the difference? [sherline] Posted by: "davedazer" ddazerx~xxsbcglobal.net Date: Mon Apr 20, 2009 5:43 am ((PDT)) I am trying to make some 3-48 machine screws and want to try my hand at cutting the slots with a slitting saw. While looking in the MSC catalog, I find jeweler's saw and slitting saws. What is the difference and which should I use for this job? I have broken several small end mill cutters and I am trying to get smarter about this. Thanks, Dave D ------- Re: slitting saws, jeweler's saws What's the difference? Posted by: "g2warrier" g2warrierx~xxyahoo.com Date: Mon Apr 20, 2009 8:02 am ((PDT)) Jeweler's saw has finer teeth than slitting saw for finer work. Be careful using these as the blades have: -poor concentricity - the arbor doesn't help the situation any better -teeth tend to wear out unevenly -larger the diameter the slower the feed should be - if not you'll wear out the teeth very very fast and bind the spindle. Listen to the sound no screeching or chattering. -deep cuts require good lubing to clear swarf -they are good cutting only in one direction -larger the diameter the easier it is to bind as the blades are not very stiff GG ------- cutting off copper ferrules - on a lathe? [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: "Bruce Freeman" freemab222x~xxgmail.com Date: Tue Jul 28, 2009 2:02 pm ((PDT)) I thought this was going to be a simple task, but maybe I didn't reckon with copper. I need to use 1/2" (nominal, actually about 5/8" OD) copper water tubing to make a bunch of ferrules. For reasons I won't go into, no other material will do, I'm stuck with copper tubing. I tried chucking a piece in the lathe and parting it off, but no go. I'm not sure what was wrong, but I could not get any sort of clean cut. Since then I've been using a power hacksaw and LOTS of clean-up work with files. I'd like to find something better. I'd love to use a roller cutter, but I can't tolerate the ID reduction those things give. Otherwise, this is not precision work. All I'm doing is making some ferrules. Any idea? (A solution involving the lathe is not essential.) Bruce NJ ------- Re: cutting off copper ferrules - on a lathe? Posted by: "Leon Robinson" leon-robinsonx~xxsbcglobal.net Date: Tue Jul 28, 2009 2:06 pm ((PDT)) Bruce: How about a conduit reamer for cleanup? Leon ------- Re: cutting off copper ferrules - on a lathe? Posted by: "Denis Jahn" dojahnx~xxprodigy.net Date: Tue Jul 28, 2009 2:25 pm ((PDT)) Bruce: Try a hardwood dowel inside the pipe, then the roller cutter, with more rpm and less tension. Denis Jahn Visalia, Ca. ------- Re: cutting off copper ferrules - on a lathe? Posted by: "Richard Schaal" rschaal_95135x~xxyahoo.com Date: Tue Jul 28, 2009 2:36 pm ((PDT)) I think you need to use a mandrel with something this soft. Even PVC cuts better than copper. Once on the mandrel, you should be able to use a hacksaw or file to cut through the tubing, and then do any deburring needed. You could also just hack up the tubing into "close" to size pieces, and mount the pieces on an arbor/mandrel that holds the tubing from the inside. You should be able to use the lathe tooling to trim to size and provide a good finished piece after mounting and trimming both ends. You didn't say how many ferrules you wanted to make. Some ideas will work for a small number, but aren't all that practical if you try to scale them up a couple orders of magnitude. My $0.02 Richard ------- Re: cutting off copper ferrules - on a lathe? Posted by: "Jay Greer" redwitch1x~xxearthlink.net Date: Tue Jul 28, 2009 3:00 pm ((PDT)) I recently was faced with the same problem. I used a Dremel tool with a fine carbarundum cut off wheel. I put the lathe in Granny and gently held the wheel against the work piece using the carriage mount to steady my hands. De-burring was done with a wooden cone wrapped with emery cloth. Cheers, Jay Greer ------- Re: cutting off copper ferrules - on a lathe? Posted by: "David LeVine" dlevine144x~xxmyfairpoint.net Date: Tue Jul 28, 2009 7:12 pm ((PDT)) A thought: make a mandrel, cut with whatever, use the lathe to clean up. This should be less work and very nice looking. Depending on the tubing, the mandrel could easily be 0.125" short and the clean-up cut could leave 0.050" beyond it. The mandrel might even just hold the tubing and the chuck or collet could clamp the tubing and drive it. Why a mandrel? The copper tubing can be soft enough to do weird things, a stiff mandrel inside will limit that. David G. LeVine Nashua, NH 03060 ------- Re: cutting off copper ferrules - on a lathe? Posted by: "danaz.chandler" djnx~xxieee.org Date: Tue Jul 28, 2009 8:13 pm ((PDT)) I just cut off a bunch of 1/4" copper tubing this weekend to about 1/3" long. First, used the chuck to sraighten the tubing. Grip, slide, grip, slide... Then, I strapped the Dremel tool to the cross slide with an abrasive wheel. Turned on the lathe medium speed to rotate the tubing, turned on the Dremel to cut the tubing, fed the Dremel into the work from the FARSIDE. Makes a nice clean cut. Cleans up with the normal counter- sink. Easy... (Of course, I have a holder to attach the Dremel to the tool post, but you could use duct tape as easily. Dan in Chandler, AZ ------- Re: cutting off copper ferrules - on a lathe? Posted by: "carvel webb" carvelwx~xxabsamail.co.za Date: Wed Jul 29, 2009 2:16 am ((PDT)) A non-turning option is to make a jig, and cut them by hand with a fine hacksaw. Take a piece of suitable (say 1 1/4") mild steel round bar, bore a hole through it the OD of your copper pipe, and cut or mill a slot (the width of the hacksaw blade) in it from the top surface (looking side on) to the bottom of the hole. If the position of the slot is the length of the ferrule from the end of the bar you don't even have to mark them. Hold your jig in the vice, push through the pipe to flush with the end of the jig, cut, push through, cut - ad infinitum. A few drops of suitable lube in the slot each time helps. Carvel ------- Re: cutting off copper ferrules - on a lathe? Posted by: "Bruce Freeman" freemab222x~xxgmail.com Date: Wed Jul 29, 2009 4:18 am ((PDT)) Lots of good ideas. Thanks. I'd heard copper worked differently on the lathe than other metals, but I didn't know what to do about it. I tried a sharp parting tool and had trouble. Strange that a slightly dulled one should work. I guess it's a question of grabbing the copper. I also tried a hacksaw while the tube was spinning in the lathe, and did not have good results. I probably should get an assortment of good hacksaw blades, but this approach wasn't promising. I think I'll try them in this order: 1) Tubing cutter with a 1/2" rod inside the copper tube. The burrs on the end are the killer. I could tolerate it on one end, but not on the other where it has to slip on. Clearance is too tight. If the burr were tiny enough I'd just clean it up with the file, but I was getting substantial constriction of the tubing. I have a drift for swelling the end of soft copper pipe to obviate using a union, but I doubt it has a purely 1/2" diameter section. I'll check. If I don't have 1/2" rod or dowel, I can easily get one. I like the idea of doing this on the lathe. I could probably use the roller assembly from a tubing cutter as a lathe tool. 2) Dremel cut-off wheel, with or without turning slow in the lathe. This seems sure-fire, but is a little more trouble. 3) Single-point tool in the lathe. I'll have to review all the suggestions to get the tool right. 4) Jeweller's saw. These cut most metals beautifully, but are slow and it takes skill to make a straight cut. I'm not so skilled... Some of the other ideas are interesting but would only be suitable for making ferrules in large quantities. I'm going to pass on ideas that require major tools I don't have, like the double-wheel cut-off saw, plasma cutter, etc. Thanks again, Bruce NJ ------- Re: cutting off copper ferrules - on a lathe? Posted by: "xlch58x~xxswbell.net" xlch58x~xxswbell.net bonnietr6 Date: Wed Jul 29, 2009 10:17 am ((PDT)) If you don't want to try a negative rake, then I would suggest the following: 1. Mount a 3/4 inch diameter 3 inch long W1 carbon steel rod in the lathe. 2. Turn a one inch length of it down to a half inch, or the maximum that your tailstock chuck can take. 3. Reverse it in the lathe, mounting and centering the half inch diameter spigot in the jaws 4. Set your compound rest to a very shallow angle of of 3-5 degrees and start cutting the bar down so that the section next to the chuck is a tad over the inside diameter that you want. Use a high speed, very fine feed and light cuts to get a good finish. 5. Assuming that you have a clean finish, polish it using strips of one inch wide abrasive paper. 6. If you have a knurling tool, knurl the very tip for an half inch or so. 7. Harden the tool using standard blacksmithing procedure. Leave the shaft end that will go in the chuck as soft as possible. Now, 1. Mount your new tool in the tailstock chuck. 2. Mount the tubing in the lathe as you have been. 3. Put the lathe in the lowest gear (for your atlas this would be the chance to use the backgear). 4. Put a normal plumber's tubing cutter on it. Or you can use a cutoff tool with a negative rake. 3 Turn the lathe on low. 4. After the tubing section comes off, then advance the tailstock tool into the pipe to ream and swage the end 5. Repeat. This will result in an assembly line procedure for making tube sections with two very clean ends, and one end with the diameter properly sized. There is a science to cutting steel by the way. What many people don't realize is the cutting surfaces of the cutting tool do NOT actually cut the metal, the material pushed ahead of it does. Steel behaves differently from non-ferrous metals. Positive rake for steel, negative rake for brass, aluminium, etc. Charles ------- Re: cutting off copper ferrules - on a lathe? Posted by: "Jon Elson" elsonx~xxpico-systems.com Date: Wed Jul 29, 2009 10:18 am ((PDT)) Bruce Freeman wrote: > 1) Tubing cutter with a 1/2" rod inside the copper tube. The burrs on > the end are the killer. I could tolerate it on one end, but not on > the other where it has to slip on. Cut it this way, but leave it .050 - .1" too long. Then, use a sharp cutting tool that is square to the chuck face, and face it off. It will leave a tiny burr that can be removed with a deburring tool or a sharp knife like an Xacto. I made a gadget that fits down deep in the chuck, mostly behind the chuck jaws, with a lip that goes against the chuck face. It has 3 slots to clear the chuck jaws. On the bottom it has a 10-32 threaded hole. It can be set up with various threaded rods, bolts, etc, as a depth stop, so you can put the work in the chuck at a repeatable depth and cut many parts to the same length. Jon ------- Re: cutting off copper ferrules - on a lathe? Posted by: "Michael Fagan" woodworker88x~xxgmail.com Date: Wed Jul 29, 2009 10:53 am ((PDT)) The key to cutting copper is that it is very grabby, soft, and malleable. Tools ground with zero rake will prevent grabbing and hooking. For the parting tool, rather than one ground straight across, try one with a 10-20 degree angle as you look down at the top of the tool. Orient it so that the leading edge is on the side of the part you want to keep. With the thin tubing, the ferrule will drop off easily before the parting tool cuts all the way through. For deburring, look at some of the different tools made by Noga and others. They have a variety of blades which do a good job on this type of stuff. With care, they can be used with the part spinning in the lathe, or by hand. ------- Re: slitting saw [sherline] Posted by: "Greg.Procter" procterx~xxihug.co.nz Date: Tue Aug 17, 2010 3:18 pm ((PDT)) On Wed, 18 Aug 2010, rsimonus wrote: > I do not know anything about slitting saw blade. I see many different > size and number of teeth. Can someone tell me how do we know which one > we should use it for. Most of time I use it for alumun, steel and brass. > I would like to make one but I need to know the size first. Reid Four major dimensions: - Diameter. - arbour diameter. - width. - number of teeth. The major diameter is important to you because it determines how much shows above the tool table. ie how thick the material you are cutting can be. The arbour diameter (the hole) is important to you because you need an arbour to match the saw blade you buy. The width is important if you are cutting screw slots etc. Otherwise, if you are just cutting material apart then the requirement is that it is thick enough to be rigid. My Grand-dad's rule was that you need 3 teeth cutting the material all the time. I.e. the tooth pitch should be about a third of the material thickness. (I don't think I have ever achieved that as I mostly cut thin brass etc.) More teeth take smaller bites and get hotter, so you need fine and coarse blades for everything :-) Greg.P. ------- Re: slitting saw Posted by: "Greg Procter" procterx~xxihug.co.nz Date: Wed Aug 18, 2010 8:26 pm ((PDT)) sportandmiah wrote: > What's a good brand for blades? Is Proxxon any good? Proxxon is excellent German quality (and price). Any engineering supply firm should have good quality slitting saws in stock and possibly cheap ones too. If you get the choice then buy cheap first time around as your mistakes will show up much faster ;-)))) Greg.P. ------- Re: slitting saw Posted by: "ransome michasiow" ransome_dukex~xxyahoo.com Date: Thu Aug 19, 2010 7:15 am ((PDT)) Jewelers slotting saws. For slitting saw I use KBCtools (.com) brand 1/2 inch hole, 2.5 diameter, thickness .006 - .057, teeth per saw 240 - 140 - old catalog prices 6 to 14 dollars - check out their online catalog. In 1/2 inch hole they sell 1.5 to 6 inch diameter. I recommend the 2.5 diameter. I generally use 2.5 diameter, .032 thickness, 140 teeth to cut brass, bronze, and a little steel. 2.5 diameter will give you a cut of 3/4 inch but do not believe I have cut anything thicker than 1/4 inch. A2Z makes a nice Slotting Saw Arbor, screws on rather than the Morse taper. Really Really Slow Speed and Really Really Slow Feed. No connection to KBC or A2Z. Ransome ------- Cutting slots in small tubing [sherline] Posted by: "Cary" cary.millsapx~xxgmail.com Date: Tue Nov 23, 2010 9:15 am ((PST)) What is the best way to cut a slot down the longitudinal axis (end-to-end) in brass tubing? I have slotting saws, and I've made a few successful attempts (that is, a few lucky attempts), but what's the best way to hold the work when cutting a slot down the length of a small-diameter tube? Thank you, Cary Millsap ------- Re: Cutting slots in small tubing Posted by: "a3sigma" dcclark111x~xxcomcast.net Date: Tue Nov 23, 2010 9:54 am ((PST)) Hi Cary: My preferred way to fixture any thin material is to fill it with, or embed it in, machinable wax. See: http://www.mcmaster.com/#machinable-wax/=9ugc3r for one source. I have sung the praises of this handy stuff often in this forum. If you need only a small amount, less than a cubic inch or so, I'll be happy to mail you some. David Clark in Southern Maryland, USA ------- Re: Cutting slots in small tubing Posted by: "Cary" cary.millsapx~xxgmail.com Date: Tue Nov 23, 2010 10:59 am ((PST)) David: That's very kind of you; thank you for your generosity. I'll order myself a bar from McMaster-Carr and make it part of my tool set! ------- Re: Cutting slots in small tubing Posted by: "a3sigma" dcclark111x~xxcomcast.net Date: Tue Nov 23, 2010 11:50 am ((PST)) I bought a cheap steel 8 oz measuring cup at the supermarket. A soup can would do as well. Melt wax with low heat on an electric hotplate (50 cents at a yard sale). I reuse the stuff indefinitely. One of McMaster's smallest blocks has lasted me many years. Most recently I'm machining molds out of it for styrene castings. Will melt it all back down when finished this project. For thin wall tubing, I fill the tube with molten wax, let it cool, then hold it in a vise, vee block, chuck, or just clamp it down. It's a solid cylinder at that point -- treat it as you would any such. Probably won't even have to heat it to remove the wax, just push it out the end. Done this many times... nothing to it. Let us know how you make out. DC ------- Re: Cutting slots in small tubing Posted by: "Brian Pitt" bfpx~xxearthlink.net Date: Tue Nov 23, 2010 10:55 am ((PST)) You can use an easy-to-remove glue or soft solder to stick it to a rectangular bar that you can clamp. Brian ------- Re: Cutting slots in small tubing Posted by: "Greg Procter" procterx~xxihug.co.nz Date: Tue Nov 23, 2010 2:09 pm ((PST)) Hi Cary: As you've probably found, if you apply enough pressure to the outside of thin walled brass tubing to hold it while slitting, it will collapse :-) The answer is of course to hold it from the inside. If you just need a small length (say equal to the diameter) then you can clamp the tube, cut the slot and then trim the length of slotted tube off the end of the whole tube. If you need a longer length, make a holder by milling a slot in a piece of brass or aluminium that precisely matches the tube cross-section. Find brass rod that will just fit inside the tube. Clamp the tube/rod in your block and slit, presumably removing and replacing clamps before and after the slotter. Greg. P. NZ ------- Re: Cutting slots in small tubing Posted by: "Ian Newman" ian_newx~xxyahoo.com Date: Tue Nov 23, 2010 11:33 am ((PST)) Hi Cary: How long is long and how small is small? Can you slide a close fitting wire down the bore then clamp the tube in a vice? The wire preventing the tube being crushed and the slot closing as it is cut. Alternatively, cut a square section channel in a block to support the tube on three sides and then clamp the tube in the channel from the open side of the groove (using a vee block to hold the tube may give you problems with the sloping side of the vee forcing the slot in the tube closed around the slitting saw). If it does not matter if the inside of the tube gets contaminated, you can fill the tube with molten solder to prevent it being crushed when cut, then melt the solder out afterwards. An alternative to solder is Wood's metal which has a much lower melting point (about 70C - 160F) or Field's metal (m.p. about 60C - 140F). These alloys are available under a number of trade names. Ian ------- Re: Cutting slots in small tubing Posted by: "Cary" cary.millsapx~xxgmail.com Date: Tue Nov 23, 2010 6:28 pm ((PST)) Hi Ian, 1- to 1.5-inch long tubes of inside diameters ranging roughly from .100" to .300". As is usual in public appeals for problem solving assistance, it's the sub-problem that gets asked, not the original problem that motivated the sub-problem. My goal is to add to my small collection of brass sleeves that I can use to protect threaded rod or knurled work when I chuck it into a 3-jaw chuck for lathe work. Except that my goal has now become learning how to slit a tube *well*. So far, so good: I appreciate all the excellent responses on the list. Cary ------- Re: Cutting slots in small tubing Posted by: "Gerald Goldberg" goldbergtoolx~xxyahoo.com Date: Tue Nov 23, 2010 7:52 pm ((PST)) Why go to all that trouble? Take a piece of shim stock and wrap it around a mandrel of the size of the part you want to protect. ------- QCTP from CDCO attack [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: "Don" dhortx~xxgvtc.com Date: Fri Feb 11, 2011 12:58 pm ((PST)) I don't have a lot of time to post to the conversations, but do read them every day. Thank you all. I hope this will be of some help to those that are interested in the QCTP from CDCO. I was interested in the QCTP from CDCO also and after reading the posts, I ordered one on Monday 2/7. The rather abrupt speaking Chinese gentleman did not give me an order number but said it would be delivered Thursday 2/10. True to his word it arrived on Thursday. Thank you CDCO. The first thing I noticed is that it needed some cleaning up as expected. Fine. Secondly the tool post bolt square nut was way oversize for my Crafsman 12". This would require some cutting. The nut is hardened. I had a challenge. Remembering from many moons ago that someone said they used a grinder to cut it. Out came my hand held grinder. Scribed marks, Cutting wheel to the metal and in about 45 min. it was sized to about 1/16 of the final size. Next with the grinding disc I trimmed the metal down to the sized line. Squared it on the belt grinder. From reading the posts I thought this would be a real test not having a mill, but the grinder did the trick quite well. Not being a machinist and no mill, next will be the belt grinder on one side of the nut only to thin it to fit in the cross slide grove. So far so good. Will begin sanding next week when there is more time and less cold. Thank you all. D ------- Re: QCTP from CDCO attack Posted by: "ahz" ahzx~xxinsightbb.com Date: Fri Feb 11, 2011 4:10 pm ((PST)) One must bear in mind that those QCTPs are not for Atlas lathes exclusively. They are for generic. It's expected that they have to be fitted to individual lathes. Nice grinder work, by the way. ------- Re: OK!! New AXA QC tool post ordered!! Posted by: "Dave Clements" davidcclementsx~xxgmail.com Date: Fri Feb 11, 2011 6:03 pm ((PST)) When I got my AXA toolpost from CDCO I decided that it would be a lot of hand work to turn the flat plate into a T-nut since my mill is down at the moment. So I turned a 1/2"-13 thread on the lower end of the supplied stud so it would fit the T-nut that I already had. The supplied stud looks like it is hard but machines fairly well. Dave ------- Angle grinders (was: QCTP from CDCO attack) [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: "Bruce Freeman" freemab222x~xxgmail.com Date: Fri Feb 11, 2011 7:23 pm ((PST)) Those angle grinders are great. They're the perfect tool for cutting off mystery steel. If anyone doesn't have one of these little beasts yet, the 4.5" angle grinders (#95578) go on "sidewalk sale" for $10 at Harbor Freight the weekend of March 11-13. I don't know whether this applies to mail-orders. Assemble this beast with BOTH the guard and the side handle and use it two-handed ALWAYS. Wait for it to stop spinning before you set it down, no matter what hurry you're in. Wear eye protection for sure. Wear leather gloves unless you don't mind living dangerously. (Hands heal. Eyes don't.) These things are known as "flesh erasers" for good reason. That said, it is easy to use them safely. Also buy grinding wheels (~1/4" thick, cutoff wheels, ~1/16" thick, one wire brush - preferably with twisted bristle bundles, and at least one flap wheel. (Don't think "sanding" when you use a flap wheel -- think "grinding". They make metal disappear quicker than you'd believe!) While you're at it, buy a pair of safety glasses and a pair of leather gloves. I actually recommend you buy four of these at this price -- which would be less than the price of one Ryobi grinder at Home Depot. Put a cutoff wheel on one, a grinding wheel on the second, a flap disk on the third, and a wire brush on the fourth. Yes, these are "cheap Chinese crap" grinders, but if (not when) you manage to burn it out, you'll know you're ready for a more expensive grinder. (When you get one, you use the good one for the heavy work and keep the HF ones for other wheels so you don't have to keep swapping wheels for little tasks involving other wheels.) Full disclosure: I have no interest in the Harbor Freight business. ------- Re: Angle grinders (was: QCTP from CDCO attack) Posted by: "Greg" k9gklx~xxyahoo.com Date: Sat Feb 12, 2011 6:34 am ((PST)) Excellent advise, "replacing 'cheap xxxx crap' with a more expensive...______" Short story... Many moons ago I worked as a motorcycle mechanic until one day I reported to work and the boss told me there was a break-in the night before, and all of my tools [along with other tools, etc.] were stolen. Without tools I could not work!!! Off to the the 7 day a week flea market [thank goodness there was one nearby] to buy replacement tools. With an almost no budget I managed to buy enough tools continue working. Lots of cheap import wrenches, etc., but I still bought lifetime warranty screwdrivers and a few wrenches that would see heavy use. The cheap stuff that broke was replaced with 'lifetime warranty tools'. So, what's the point you say? Well, here it is almost 30 years later and I still have some of those cheap import tools. Some of the tools I 'thought' I needed were seldom used and to have spent more for a lifetime tool would have been a waste. Got to admit though, a 'full set' of bright shiny wrenches looks good, just doesn't make good use of one's money. ------- Re: Angle grinders (was: QCTP from CDCO attack) Posted by: "oldstudentmsgt" wmrmeyersx~xxsbcglobal.net Date: Sat Feb 12, 2011 7:54 am ((PST)) I'll second Bruce on this. I've only got two, and paid more than $10 for them, but I could certainly use a couple more. I have a cup brush on one, and the flap sander on the other, and they both really work well. The brush will eat most surface rust, the flap gets anything the brush can't handle. I've also got cutoff, metal and masonry, & grinding wheels, and a little stand that turns the grinder into a small cutoff saw. Have not used it yet, should work ok for straight cuts. It's a couple of minutes to change wheels. I've spent much of the past couple of years cleaning rust off of stuff I had to leave outside. If you're doing that, I'd add a dust mask to the safety gear! Bill in OKC ------- Re: Angle grinders (was: QCTP from CDCO attack) Posted by: "Elton E. (Tony) Clark" eltonclarkx~xxgmail.com Date: Sat Feb 12, 2011 8:51 am ((PST)) > I supplemented my GOOD Makita angle grinder which I use for serious > grinding with 4 el-cheapo units just as suggested. I think some of them > cost only $4.50. The two suggestions I would make are: 1. Don't buy cheap grinder discs, flap wheels or brushes. Buy top quality for safety and 3 times faster grinding and sanding. I had one Chinese grind disc detonate at 10,000 RPM and it'll scare 'ell out of you. 2. Routinely, repack the angle gear drive on a new cheap grinder; they are often shipped DRY! Carefully keep the gear teeth in the original mesh position, they MAY get noisy if moved to new tooth engagement, especially on a grinder which has been used very much. ------- Re: Angle grinders (was: QCTP from CDCO attack) Posted by: "Scott Henion" shenionx~xxshdesigns.org Date: Sat Feb 12, 2011 9:06 am ((PST)) Yes, had a nice bruise in my stomach when a Horror Freight wheel disintegrated. They also wore uneven. I bought 100 cutting disks and 25 grinding disks from Smith and Arrow. I was going through cutting disks like crazy. Turns out their S&A ones last several times longer so I have years of supply. S&A offered samples out to a welding forum for evaluation, all liked them. Good disks last longer, are safer and cut smoother. Eye protection is a must, a full face shield is preferred. > *2. Routinely, repack the angle gear drive on a new cheap grinder; they are often shipped DRY! Carefully keep the gear teeth in the original mesh position, they MAY get noisy if moved to new tooth engagement, especially on a grinder which has been used very much. < Has been reported on other forms several times. I have a Ryobi 4" angle grinder. Works well but gets too hot to hold if used a lot. Get 4.5", 4" is too small as 3" is used up by the case. That extra 1/2" makes a big difference and 4" disks are harder to find. Flap disks are great to have and aggressive. Great for flattening out welds. I used an air die grinder for years. An angle grinder cuts/grinds many times faster. The die grinder is nice for tight spaces though. Scott G. Henion Craftsman 12x36 lathe: http://shdesigns.org/Craftsman12x36 ------- Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2011 13:29:33 +1000 From: "John Manners" Subject: Re: [OldTools] BRADES CO TINSNIPS Nothing much to report from my Saturday morning venture to the fleamarket. The only thing of interest (to me) that I came away with was a pair of tin-snips for $4.00. Stamped on one of the handles was the legend "Brades Co - Handforged - 2230". The set was quite hefty, 12" long overall with 3 1/4" blades, weighed, by the kitchen scales, 1lb 5 oz. and had a riveted joint. The heavy handles betrayed the smithing process, showing slight irregularities of thickness, but my betting is that the hand-forging was executed by a trip-hammer operated by a chap who really knew his business. The blades, the business part of the set, were perfectly formed, ground and sprung and the rivet held things together with ideal tension. Quite surprisingly for old snips, the edges of the blades were in excellent condition. Removal of light rust with a stone disclosed what I took to be the original grinding marks on the obtuse-angled bevels. Remarkably, for a tool of what I deem to be considerable age, no fool had attempted to grind or stone the incorrect sides of the cutting edges. In fact, it seemed a good bet that the tool had seen little use at all for the edges were quite sharp enough to cut sheet-metal with considerable ease before I bothered to remove the rust and brought them quickly to a state where the would not only cut cloth but would also cleanly cut a cigarette paper. My thought that the tool is reasonably old stems from my inability to discover much about Brades Co except from the archives of this List where Don McConnell reported to the effect that the firm appeared to have a sparse history from 1818 which disappeared after 1914. I should be interested to know more about Brades Co but it seems there is little history of the firm available. I have never bothered to count the number of tin-snips which I have acquired over the years. They seem to sell cheaply and are useful tools, a combination of circumstances which, to me, renders them somewhat irresistible. The acquisition of this relatively large set of snips means that I can move up a couple of gauges in my next sheet-metal venture, the fabrication of an over-size grass catcher for my motor mower, without having to employ the noisy and perilous services of a metal-cutting disk on my angle-grinder. The big snips mean that, for cutting out the pieces, there will be just sheet-metal, setting out tools, file, snips, folding bars and hammer on the bench. The jigs and clamps necessary to hold things safely in place whilst employing an angle-grinder, which probably would not make the necessary cuts significantly faster than the snips in any event, have thereby been rendered redundant. Regards from Brisbane, John Manners ------- How to cut an accurate 0.025" slot in the end of a tube? [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: "Not" sstephancx~xxyahoo.com Date: Thu May 26, 2011 10:24 pm ((PDT)) Hi all, I have an aluminum tube and I need to cut 2 narrow (0.025") kerfs in the end of it. Imagine cutting the tube in half length-wise like you were making a banana split, but only cutting about 0.1875" deep. Each kerf will hold an 0.026" thick piece of steel. I know a horizontal mill and a slitting saw would do, but have neither. I do have a lathe and the usual assortment of hand tools. Also, what is a proper interference fit for this? For layout, I thought I would use a center finder on a combination square and scribe it from both sides, aiming for the center of the resulting parallel lines, unless there is perfect over-lap in which case I'm spot on. Thanks, Scott ------- Re: How to cut an accurate 0.025" slot in the end of a tube? Posted by: "Rick Sparber" rgsparberx~xxaol.com Date: Fri May 27, 2011 5:38 am ((PDT)) Scott: Do you have a Dremel that can be mounted on your tool post? Rick ------- Re: How to cut an accurate 0.025" slot in the end of a tube? Posted by: "Not" sstephancx~xxyahoo.com Date: Fri May 27, 2011 8:22 am ((PDT)) Hi Rick: Thanks for the response. I do have a Dremel, but have not made anything to attach it to the compound. Without a milling attachment, the axis of the cut would be in a direction that I cannot move the Dremel, ie. the carriage & cross slide let me move in a plane parallel to the bed, while the Dremmel blade would be perpendicular to that plane. Setting the blade at the vertical centerline and advancing toward the workpiece with the compound still require that I be able to adjust the vertical to get to the tube edge. I had thought of clamping a short piece of hacksaw blade into a lantern tool post boring bar holder or a quick change tool holder shimmed to be level with the centerline and parallel to the turning axis. Set the compound to run parallel to the turning axis. Lock the spindle and work the cross slide back & forth by hand while advancing the compound ever so slowly toward the workpiece. I could thin the blade as needed on a stone. Scott ------- Re: How to cut an accurate 0.025" slot in the end of a tube? Posted by: "Jon Elson" elsonx~xxpico-systems.com Date: Fri May 27, 2011 8:42 am ((PDT)) The slitting saw is the tool. You would need to hold the tube to the compound in some manner so it is properly aligned. Another way is to get a .025" end mill, and traverse the tube across the cutter. Jon ------- Re: How to cut an accurate 0.025" slot in the end of a tube? Posted by: "RG Sparber" rgsparberx~xxaol.com Date: Fri May 27, 2011 8:42 am ((PDT)) Scott: You might want to consider making this little attachment: http://rick.sparber.org/tad.pdf Rick ------- NOTE TO FILE: Rick has an incredibly useful and educational site. The details and rationale set out in this particular PDF file will help anyone (new or experienced) approach projects in a logical and methodical step-by-step manner, thus giving the best chance for a successful outcome. Rick is a truly gifted instructor. ------- Re: How to cut an accurate 0.025" slot in the end of a tube? Posted by: "Rick Sparber" rgsparberx~xxaol.com Date: Sun May 29, 2011 5:52 am ((PDT)) On May 28, 2011, at 10:57 AM, "artmalin" wrote: > Rick - Thanks for the link to the step-by-step procedure you used for making a 'Dremel' attachment. I'm fairly new to metalworking and ave been at your site off and on for three years (according to my history at Del.ico.us); it is one of my favorites and have learned quite a bit from you articles. Your site is very helpful to someone new to metalworking. < Art, I'm glad you found value at my web site. In the next few days I plan to publish another in my series of machining for people new to the hobby. It will explain how to make an L shaped bracket. Can you think of similar topics or projects that would be helpful? Best of luck with your Atlas. I certainly enjoy my Atlas/Craftsman lathe. Rick ------- Re: How to cut an accurate 0.025" slot in the end of a tube? Posted by: "Jon Elson" elsonx~xxpico-systems.com Date: Fri May 27, 2011 8:45 am ((PDT)) What you need is a fixture that mounts the Dremel vertically, and use a thin saw blade. You'd adjust the vertical position to put the blade on center. Then, take shallow cuts to avoid stalling the Dremel motor. You could set the compound for the depth and use the crossfeed for the traverse. You ought to be able to get a .025" saw for the Dremel. Jon ------- Re: How to cut an accurate 0.025" slot in the end of a tube? Posted by: "Keith Mc" actix~xxPROVIDE.NET Date: Fri May 27, 2011 9:03 am ((PDT)) I'm still confused... I'm still trying to see your orientation, on your measurements... So far I see this (is this correct?) - You wish a pair of slots, 180 degrees around the tube from each other; - They will only be on one end of the tube (vs running the length); - They are 0.025" wide (around the tubing circumfrence?), by 0.1875" deep, as viewed from the SURFACE of the tube (not END). Since you are talking about a depth, can I assume you are adding a keyway of some kind to the surface of a tube, and NOT cutting through the entire wall? Or, are you looking at an END of the tube, with width really "around the perimeter" and depth ALONG the tubing? Which way is it? Also: - How thick is the wall of this tubing? - If cutting a slot along the surface of the tubing, how long are these slots? (Full length, of XX inches? "x.xxx" only, starting from the end? or what?) - When you are asking "what is an interference fit" you need to tell us what you are fitting! What's your application? IF we know more about the parts and problem definition instead of a loosely described geometry, it may help. - How precise in location and angle must these be? (IOW, what's the application?) First blush - I'm thinking a Dremel with a slotting saw mounted in some way to move in the proper direction (whatever that may be - depends on answers to above). If this is a one-shot job and/or a loose spec, you may be able to create a parallelogram with wood, door hinges, and hose clamps, Afghan Lathe style, to hold and move the Dremel along the right axis. I need to understand the application better though, to describe a geometry for the tool holder. Keith Mc. ------- Re: How to cut an accurate 0.025" slot in the end of a tube? Posted by: "Not" sstephancx~xxyahoo.com Date: Sun May 29, 2011 9:59 pm ((PDT)) Thanks for all the suggestions. The hack-saw idea worked very well, though due to the time it required, I would not recommend it for anything but making do with what you have. It certainly took more time than the Dremel idea, but less time than it would have taken to make the Dremel tool holder. ------- [atlas_craftsman] Re: Problem with 108.2291 horizontal band saw staying true after adj Posted by: "Joe R" jromasx~xxcolumbus.rr.com joe_romas Date: Thu Oct 27, 2011 5:49 am ((PDT)) The topic of blade tracking is very well covered on the 4x6 saw group that I'm also a member of. On the "sound" of the blade when it's "plucked" there is a certain note that works well for most of the Chinese/Taiwan saws. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/4x6bandsaw/ "Real men who put food on the table for a living" would have a much better saw then what is being discussed here. On sale with a 20% off coupon the Harbor Freight band saw can regularly bought for around $150. Joe ------- Taig Slitting saw arbor [taigtools] Posted by: "ppacra" ppacrax~xxyahoo.com Date: Sat Feb 4, 2012 2:50 pm ((PST)) From what I gather, the taig slitting saw arbor holds 1/2" ID hole slitting saws? From what I understand, they are not very easy to find? Most of the ones I am aware of have 7/8"ID holes. Where can one find sustainable sources of slitting saws to fit the taig arbor? ------- Re: Taig Slitting saw arbor Posted by: "Clint" kiheimanx~xxq.com Date: Sat Feb 4, 2012 3:04 pm ((PST)) They come available from time to time on eBay. The standard blade can be obtained from Taig distributors. Be careful in using it – it is very easy to break the blade if any kind of side pressure is placed on it from side of the metal piece that you are cutting. I keep the standard Taig thin blade for special use needs when I need to make a very thin cut – otherwise I use a thicker blade that is much more durable. Regards, Clint ------- Re: Taig Slitting saw arbor Posted by: "Shawn Woolley" shawnwoolleyx~xxmac.com Date: Sat Feb 4, 2012 3:05 pm ((PST)) I just turned a reducing washer to act as an blade arbor/adapter to fit the Micro Mark 10mm blades. They work fine, are cheap, and give you a lot of options. ------- Re: Taig Slitting saw arbor Posted by: "J. mendoza" mndzbluex~xxyahoo.com Date: Sat Feb 4, 2012 4:31 pm ((PST)) i'm going to add that i don't like using it, it feels very fragile. You cut in very small steps. When i cut, i stand out of the way of the blade's path, should it come loose. If you're going to buy it, consider some sort of shield for safety. Safety is the first Chapter. Some like to live dangerously, but I prefer to live longer with all my senses and limbs. george ------- Re: Taig Slitting saw arbor Posted by: "alighazizadeh" alighazizadehx~xxaol.com Date: Sat Feb 4, 2012 4:50 pm ((PST)) Hi, Why don't you make a saw holder from a Taig blank arbour for your 7/8" bore saws? It should be easy enough to do. Regards, A.G ------- Re: Taig Slitting saw arbor Posted by: "Paul J. Ste. Marie" taigx~xxste-marie.org Date: Sat Feb 4, 2012 7:45 pm ((PST)) On 2/4/2012 3:03 PM, Clint wrote: > Be careful in using it – it is very easy to break the blade if any > kind of side pressure is placed on it from side of the metal piece > that you are cutting. It also tends to bind up in deeper cuts. I was slitting the end of a knuckle for some MicroRAX about 1/2" deep and kept having problems with that. ------- Re: Taig Slitting saw arbor Posted by: "sitonchair44" karincorbinx~xxgmail.com Date: Sun Feb 5, 2012 11:28 am ((PST)) Order your saw blades from Thurston. They have been in business a very long time and have decent prices as well as good service. http://www.thurstonmfg.com/ KCorbon ------- Re: Taig Slitting saw arbor Posted by: "Paul J. Ste. Marie" taigx~xxste-marie.org Date: Sun Feb 5, 2012 9:01 pm ((PST)) On 2/4/2012 10:07 PM, pe3hmp wrote: > did you use some wd40 or anything else to lubricate ? Definitely WD40. I might have tried cutting oil as well, but anything too thick will glue the swarf into the teeth. I bought got some tapping fluid designed for aluminum in my last order from Enco--next time I do it I'll give that a try. I think the basic problem is that the slotting saw doesn't have enough room in the kerf and there's no side teeth. All the blades I've found with side teeth (e.g. http://www.use-enco.com/CGI/INSRIT?PMAKA=370-5410) are too big to mount on the Taig. Absent a way to increase the set of the teeth, I think the next best thing would be to polish the sides of the blade. ------- [Metal_Shapers] possibly OT: new article - an improved stop for a horizontal/vertica Posted by: "Rick Sparber" rgsparberx~xxaol.com Date: Sat Mar 17, 2012 5:51 pm ((PDT)) Maybe the most common machine in any metal working shop is one of these low cost horizontal/vertical band saws. Many improvements have been suggested over the years. Here is another one that I have used for a long time but forgot to write up in a standalone article. This small modification to the work piece stop provides a repeatable reference surface yet moves out of the way during sawing. If you are interested, please see: http://rick.sparber.org/bss.pdf On all but the valleymetal BBS, please send any questions or comments to me off list. I realize this subject is not on topic for lathes, shapers, or gingery machines yet might be of general use on these machines. Thanks, Rick ------- Re: Craftsman Band Saw [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: "Jon Elson" elsonx~xxpico-systems.com Date: Wed Sep 12, 2012 9:48 am ((PDT)) Chris wrote: > I have acquired a Craftsman "Continuous-Blade Power Hacksaw" (band saw as we know it as) recently. Its model number is 108.22922, which is similar to the 101.22922. (I say this because I have found a few discrepancies between the "101" manual and the "108" saw that I have.) The questions that I have are, where do you get the blades for this and which particular ones do you find that work well < Many tool suppliers (Enco, MSC, KBC, etc.) will supply bandsaw blades in increments of a couple inches. You just tell them the tooth pitch, blade width and thickness and length, and they make them to order. Years ago I bought 100' rolls of bandsaw blade and started brazing my own, which sort of worked. I tried to build my own blade welder, and if I'd spent the time to make the sliding clamping fixture it would have. But, then I lucked into an ancient German blade welder on eBay and did a little adjusting of it, and it works quite well. I got a free sample of a very expensive Starrett bimetal blade, and had the teeth knocked off it in less than a minute! So, I think for all the rough work I do, sheet metal, tubing, sawing up junk to throw away, the cheapest carbon-steel blades are best. Jon ------- Material cutting options [taigtools] Posted by: "cArliTo" smashcarlitox~xxgmail.com carlosakin Date: Sun Jan 26, 2014 11:32 am ((PST)) What do you guys do about cutting material in your workshops? Particularly interested in the more quiet options. Here is what I`ve considered: Small table top bandsaw - since this is a direct drive with a DC motor I think it would be much quiet than a gear driven harbor freight type (which I had until recently) - only problem is that I can't find any of these in the western hemisphere, I`ll look for one next time I`m in asia ... (lol) http://homepage3.nifty.com/amigos/bandsaw/bandsaw-e.htm Second option - Milwaukee porta-band with their option horizontal stand. I've never used or been around one of these, are they quiet or as noisy as a circular saw? Third - home built small power hacksaw with a footprint about like the taig lathe. I am kinda leaning toward this but need to find a motor and so forth. Any others that I've missed? (besides the manual hacksaw) ------- Re: Material cutting options Posted by: jnwooferx~xxyahoo.com Date: Sun Jan 26, 2014 4:00 pm ((PST)) I use a Lathemaster: http://www.lathemaster.com/Benchtop Bandsaw.htm I researched a lot before I bought it -- key difference compared with stands for portables is the blade direction -- cuts counterclockwise that pushes into material in vise (no material lift up). Takes up far less workshop space than a 4x6 saw and cuts 4x4. Easily put away when not in use. Excellent performance and great customer support! Feed and power control is by hand. It's fairly quiet, a little louder than the TAIG mill cutting aluminum but not as loud as typical shop tools (shop vac/table saw/chop saw/router). Jim ------- Re: Material cutting options Posted by: "Greg Fiorentino" gfiorsgroupsx~xxgmail.com Date: Sun Jan 26, 2014 4:24 pm ((PST)) I also use the Lathemaster. Mine failed after more than a year and their great customer service replaced it with a new one. It does the job and takes up little space. Greg ------- Re: Material cutting options Posted by: "Stan Stocker" skstockerx~xxcomcast.net Date: Sun Jan 26, 2014 5:37 pm ((PST)) If the work you do mostly fits the size, don't overlook the Evolution cold saw. Lower cost unit available at Home Depot for around $150 does fine on square, round, hex and flat stock within its size capabilities. Takes up far less space than the ubiquitous 4x6 horizontal/vertical bandsaw. I have one of these, but after seeing an evolution just dicing up 1 1/2 inch steel shaft quick, clean, and cool I intend to snag one when funds allow. A bit louder than a bandsaw, but not horrific like dicing up aluminum plate with a contractors saw. You can find evolution demos and reviews on youtube and decide if it might work for you. The portaband does a nice enough job, not noisy like a circular saw. Just a nice small form factor bandsaw. Whatever you get, the better the blade the better the results. Even the lower end 4X6 saws do nicely once you load them with a Lennox or Starrett bi-metal blade. Take care, Stan ------- Re: Material cutting options Posted by: "Jeffrey Birt" birt_jx~xxsoigeneris.com Date: Sun Jan 26, 2014 5:46 pm ((PST)) I picked up one of the Evolution saws on clearance at Lowes. It is the sliding compound miter type with laser line. It does work really, really well. Once thing you have to get used to is that it takes longer to cut metal than wood so you have to take your time with the cut. The only thing I don't like about it is the worthless work stops. They are a horrible design and absolutely useless. Jeff Birt Soigeneris.com ------- Re: Material cutting options Posted by: "Don Rogers" Donx~xxCampbell-Gemstones.com Date: Sun Jan 26, 2014 6:34 pm ((PST)) "Whatever you get, the better the blade the better the results. Even the lower end 4X6 saws do nicely once you load them with a Lennox or Starrett bi-metal blade." Very true words. My multi purpose saw is an old Ohio Forge 14" band saw. I wish I could devise a slower blade speed, but at its lowest speed and a Starrett blade, it will cut contours in up to 3/8" 6061 T6 aluminum and perform cut offs in aluminum stock up to 2" D. A spritz of WD40 every now and then prevents aluminum welding to the blade. Raises hell with the rubber wheels though. I've had to replace them once, but I've had the saw since about 1987. The guides are just rub blocks, so blade control is really poor. A number of years back, I was roughing out a piece of bronze to make a replacement cross slide gib for an Atlas 6" lathe. About half way through the cut. Length wise for the gib, I notice that where I had entered the stock was now a gap of almost 3/8" wide. It looked like I was cutting down the center of a wish bone. Too much heat and it was really warping the stock. Heat buildup is always a concern with the band saws, especially ones that can cut at speeds needed for wood. Hey, the saw did say wood and metal on a sticker. A fresh good quality blade makes a world of difference in the cutting. I wouldn't try cutting any steel though. Just way too fast of blade speed. I'll add this also, a 10" miter saw with a carbide tip blade will do an excellent job of cutting aluminum. I used my son-in-law's saw to cut some aluminum extrusions and the results were beyond great. A lot of the aluminum plating I've accumulated over the years from a salvage yard in San Jose, showed the signs of being cut with a wood cutting carbide blade. Some of the pieces were over 3" thick. Don ------- Re: Material cutting options Posted by: "Manfred Vormbaum" manfredv1x~xxgmail.com Date: Sun Jan 26, 2014 7:38 pm ((PST)) I use something similar to this one - with a metal saw blade of course. I find it more accurate and a lot quieter than any powered model - : http://www.rockler.com/nobex-champion-miter-saw Manfred ------- Re: Material cutting options Posted by: ddi92234x~xxaol.com steve_fornelius2000 Date: Sun Jan 26, 2014 7:41 pm ((PST)) Since I do mostly plate material, I needed a vertical bandsaw. I used my old cheap Delta and then added a Sherline motor and speed controller. I use a bimetalic blade and it works pretty well up to about 5/8". Lots of lube and patience. With thin plate stock (1/4" and below) it just sings through the stock. If it gives up the ghost, I'll use the sherline motor on my mill and get a real bandsaw. Steve ------- Re: Material cutting options Posted by: "Paul J. Ste. Marie" taigx~xxste-marie.org Date: Sun Jan 26, 2014 8:04 pm ((PST)) On 1/26/2014, Don Rogers wrote: > I'll add this also, a 10" miter saw with a carbide tip blade > will do an excellent job of cutting aluminum. Yeah, I cut 80/20 extrusions on my table saw with a Freud non-ferrous blade and the cuts are beautiful. That and an Incra miter gauge with an adjustable stop made quick work of all the cuts for my mill enclosure. ------- Re: Material cutting options Posted by: "Boman33" boman33x~xxvinland.com bertho_boman Date: Sun Jan 26, 2014 10:48 pm ((PST)) I cut a lot of solid aluminum on a regular radial arm saw with a carbide blade. I have no problem cutting a 2 x2" (50 x50mm) piece. There is one very important trick/safety consideration: Pull the saw out all the way then clamp the piece to the fence so the material is behind the blade. Start up the saw, spray WD-40 and push the saw back cutting through the piece. It never catches and tries to climb up on the piece which happens if cutting in the normal way. Bertho ------- Re: Material cutting options Posted by: "Will Schmit" anchornmx~xxyahoo.com Date: Mon Jan 27, 2014 4:26 pm ((PST)) I routinely cut aluminum with a table saw. I had a radial arm saw try to kill me when I was in my 20s, so I don't use them. I will use a miter saw. I NEVER use anything but a band saw on round objects. Learned that lesson too... ------- [atlas_craftsman] two new articles available: A Universal Bolt Cutter For a Bandsaw an Posted by: "Rick - yahoo" rgsparber.yax~xxgmail.com rgsparber Date: Sun Apr 27, 2014 8:59 pm ((PDT)) These two articles are the evolution of my past work with a cutter and beveling fixture for a ¼-20 bolt. This new set of designs can handle any bolt size up to ½? diameter. For the bolt cutter, please see http://rick.sparber.org/aubc.pdf For the beveling fixture, please see http://rick.sparber.org/ubb.pdf Both articles also reference YouTube videos. Your comments and questions are welcome. All of us are smarter than any one of us. For the full index of my articles, see rick.sparber.org. Thanks, Rick Sparber ------------------------------------------------------------------ This is just one of some 80 files about machining and metalworking and useful workshop subjects that can be read at: http://www.janellestudio.com/metal/index.html ------------------------------------------------------------------