This is just one of some 80 files about machining and metalworking and useful workshop subjects that can be read at: http://www.janellestudio.com/metal/index.html ------------------------------------------------------------------ Here find many useful tips on using cutters, bits and arbors. And lots of information on the subject of sharpening cutters and bits. I am using the term "cutter" to include milling bits as well as lathe and shaper bits. This file can be a bit of a catch-all, as a conversation on any one of these subjects sometimes roamed into other areas. And likewise, there are some conversations about bits in the other files here only because those discussions were mainly about lathe or mill operations when they started. Consequently Milling Tips and files about lathes are worth skimming too. There is a very brief mention of threadmills at the start of this file and in one later conversation. The rest of this file deals with common practical subjects of use to the machinist in his workshop. In January 2011 this file was renamed from "Cutters, Collets and Arbors" to its present "Cutters, Bits, and Arbors" and almost all the collet information was removed and consolidated in the new "Collets For Lathe or Mill" file found in the Lathes section of this site. If you got to this file directly from my HOME PAGE, return there by using your browser's back button. BUT if you came to this file as the result of a web search engine, see many additional files on my home page Machining and Metalworking at Home http://www.janellestudio.com/metal/index.html SAFETY WARNING BEWARE: DO NOT ASSUME that any subject matter or procedure or process is safe or correct or appropriate just because it was mentioned in a news/user group or was included in these files or on this site or on any other web site or was published in a magazine or book or video. Working with metals and machinery and chemicals and electrical equipment is inherently dangerous. Wear safety devices and clothing as appropriate. Remove watches, rings, and jewellery -- and secure or remove loose clothing -- before operating any machine. Read, understand and follow the latest operating procedures and safety instructions provided by the manufacturer of your machine or tool or product. If you do not have those most recent official instructions, acquire a copy through the manufacturer before operating or using their product. Where the company no longer exists, use the appropriate news or user group to locate an official copy. Be careful -- original instructions may not meet current safety standards. Updated safety information and operating instructions may also be available through a local club, a local professional in the trade, a local business, or an appropriate government agency. In every case, use your common sense before beginning or taking the next step; and do not proceed if you have any questions or doubts about any procedure, or the safety of any procedure. Follow all laws and codes, and employ certified or licenced professionals as required by those laws or codes. Hazardous tasks beyond your competence or expertise should also be contracted to professionals. Let's be really careful out there. (c) Copyright 2003 - 2015 Machining and Metalworking at Home The form of the collected work in this text file (including editing, additions, and notes) is copyrighted and this file is not to be reproduced by any means, including electronic, without written permission except for strictly personal use. ============================================================================ Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2001 20:43:26 -0800 From: "Marcus & Eva" Subject: Threadmills: Make your own >Threadmills are available from machine shop supply/ industrial >tooling places. Can be expensive. You can make one from the 'Keyslot' >cutter dremel sells. chuck it in a lathe, and 'grind its' periphery >to 60 degrees included angle. May be easier to make one from scratch >and harden/temper with a torch/oven. Hi All: Did you guys know you can turn high speed steel round blanks on the lathe? I keep seeing exotic recommendations for making cutters out of O1 and other high carbon steels, and hardening them after machining. Try necking down a 1/2" HSS blank (yes you can do it easily on a Sherline) leaving a 0.075 wide bit on the end. (like a small tee slot cutter without the teeth.) Then turn a 30 degree flank on each side, so you end up with a 60 degree included angle disc-shaped end on the blank with say a 0.350 diameter shank 1.0" long. Now grind a single gash across the disc, right on center. Freehand relief grind the underside of the cutter until you are within 0.020" or so of the cutting edge you created when you cut the gash. Stone the relief the rest of the way. This will give you a truly great threadmill (admittedly single point though) which will double in a pinch as a thread boring bar for the lathe. I always make them left hand. That way, when I'm cutting an internal thread, I run the lathe in reverse for a right hand thread. Now the tool will back out of the bore during a cut, so it's way less frightening to cut the thread. I can engage the halfnuts with the thread dial as usual, but I don't have to crap myself about stopping the cut at the right moment to avoid plowing into a shoulder. The cutter will run out into the air. When I run an external thread (if it's a short one) I can use the same tool, feeding it exactly the same way as any other threading tool. For threadmilling, I just chuck the cutter in a 1/2" collet and run the spindle in reverse. I set the start and end point order and the helical code orientation so I get a climb cut with the correct handedness for the finished thread.This means that sometimes I start the thread at the bottom. Climb cutting gives me a better finish and tends to be kinder to the cutter as well. Cheers Marcus ------- Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2001 00:23:02 -0800 From: "Marcus & Eva" Subject: Re: Threadmills: Make your own Hi Alan: The gash removes about a quarter of the circle. One face will be parallel to the long axis and coincident with the center of the blank. The other will be oriented at whatever angle you applied the blank to the grinding wheel. You can grind away as much of the vee shaped disc portion of the cutter as you like: I normally take away the whole back half, and a good portion of the underside. That leaves me with about a quarter circle to grind a relief on, and allows the cutter to sneak into a half inch bore even if it is not perfectly centered. If you want me to send you a picture offline, give me a nudge. Cheers Marcus ------- Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2001 03:49:01 -0000 From: ballendox~xxyahoo.com Subject: Re: re:dremel mount In sherline, on Wed, 07 Feb 2001, Thomas Gilmour wrote: > >What are threadmills used for? "Charlie Lear" wrote:> They're for extherthithing, thilly! Cheerth Charlie Thomas: Threadmills are used for "milling threads". If you look at the drawings posted with your original question, you see the vee shape of the cutter (single vee, or multiple vees). You insert this into a hole, and then move it "out" towards the hole interior surface until the (60 degrees, or other thread shape)vee(s) are cutting; then make a HELICAL motion, where the downward (or upward) motion per revolution is equal to the thread pitch you want to cut. If you have a 'single vee' cutter, you keep cutting circles until the number of threads you want are done. With the multiple vee threadmill, you cut many threads in one "circle" of helical movement. Hope this helps. Ballendo ------- From: Tony Jeffree [mailto:tonyx~xxjeffree.co.uk] Sent: Wednesday, January 31, 2001 4:30 PM To: taigtoolsx~xxyahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [taigtools] Plastools Indexable insert holder 31/01/01, you wrote: > Nicholas and Stan, Thanks for your help. Stan, I will try your suggestions in regards to cutting speeds. I will also try a 221 insert, since that has a 1/64 nose radius as opposed to the 1/32 radius of the 222. < I've had very good results on my Taig using holders that take the smaller Sandvik and Sumitomo inserts, but with rather smaller tip radii than those you mention - 0.1mm and 0.2mm (for comparison, 1/64" is a gnat's hair under 0.4mm). I have tried 0.4mm tip radius inserts & found that they don't work very well on the Taig - tough to get a decent cut, as you described. If you can go down a size or two from 1/64th it might prove worthwhile. Regards, Tony ------- Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 10:02:40 -0600 (CST) From: Tom Benedict Subject: Re: Reducing 1/2" HSS shank On Tue, 13 Feb 2001, Jim Lewis wrote: > Has anyone turned down a HSS shank using a carbide cutter on the Taig > lathe? It seems like pushing the limits of the Taig and I don't want > to break anything. Also not sure how deep to cut each pass. The > purpose is to adapt a tool to the mill which is limited to 1/4" > shanks, unless someone has a better method. Thanks. When you say HSS, do you mean a hardened high speed steel shank? If so, there are a couple of ways I might tackle something like that: First, I'd look at the feasibility of using a blank arbor to make a 1/2" tool arbor. I made one of these for a third-party fly cutter, and it's worked great. (I since decided it would've been only slightly more involved to make the entire fly cutter out of an arbor, something I'm planning on doing once I get some projects finished.) If it looked like I had no choice but to cut the shank down on the lathe, I'd try to remove as much material as I possibly could in some other way. I've got a bench grinder that would get rid of the bulk of the material, leaving only a little to remove to get the 1/2" shank down to 1/4". Failing that a Dremel, Foredom, or other grinder would work, and they'd give me finer control. Once it was roughed down to size, I'd see if I *could* cut it. If it's hardened steel, I'd be inclined to use a toolpost grinder on the lathe to get it down to 1/4". (Be sure to cover as much of your lathe as you possibly can when you're grinding! Grit's NASTY to lathe ways.) If it was case-hardened, the earlier grinding step would have cut past the hardened part, and it might be able to be turned using normal tools. In the end, though, I'd be concerned about having taken a tool that the manufacturer believed to warrant a 1/2" shank, and reduced it by a factor of 4 in cross-section, to a 1/4" shank. Given the choice I'd make an arbor for it. What tool is this, if you don't mind my asking? Tom ------- Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 15:30:25 -0000 From: "Jim Lewis" Subject: Re: Reducing 1/2" HSS shank Hi Tom, thanks for your detailed reply. > When you say HSS, do you mean a hardened high speed steel shank? I meant High Speed Steel - I don't know exactly what it is. > First, I'd look at the feasibility of using a blank arbor to make a > 1/2" tool arbor. I made one of these for a third-party fly cutter, > and it's worked great. Any pix - I'm not sure how it would work. Just a 1/2" hole with a set screw? Taig's arbors are hollow so I don't see how it would be done. > What tool is this, if you don't mind my asking? 3/16 edge grooving tool - looks like tiny radial saw blade. I'm only cutting alum/plastic with it. Jim ------- Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 16:10:25 +0000 From: Tony Jeffree Subject: Re: Re: Reducing 1/2" HSS shank >3/16 edge grooving tool - looks like tiny radial saw blade. I'm only >cutting alum/plastic with it. The "blank arbor" that Tom mentions is basically a piece of 1" diam steel stock, already bored & tapped at one end to fit the Taig spindle nose (3/4-16 thread). The other end is unmachined. Taig sell them for a few bucks each - probably the single most versatile accessory that they make, as there is almost no end to the range of arbors and holders that can be made from them. The blank arbors are made from free cutting steel - very easy to machine. To make up a tool holder of the kind Tom is talking about, what you do is fit a blank arbor on the nose of a Taig lathe & then bore it to fit the tool shank (1/2" in your case), then cross-drill & tap the arbor to take a set screw that will hold the tool in the arbor. Ideally, the boring of the 1/2" hole should be done by axial drilling an undersize hole and then finishing off with a boring bar or a reamer - it is very difficult (if not impossible) to accurately drill a 1/2" hole on axis & to size just using twist drills. The Taig lathe and mill both have the same nose thread, so the completed tool holder can be used on the mill. I have done this successfully for holding 1/2" arbor flycutters and dovetail cutters. Alternatively, why not start from a piece of 1/4" drill rod & machine yourself a cutter instead? Much easier to machine than HSS & can be hardened after machining. Should be just fine for Alu/Plastic cutting. Regards, Tony ------- Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 04:11:05 -0000 From: lasernerdx~xxhotmail.com Subject: Re: Reducing 1/2" HSS shank I agree. Tool bits are made to be used _as_is_. It would be _far_ simpler (no, I don't think "simpler" is a word, but too bad!) and more practical to make the 1/2" tool holder. I recently made a 3/8" and a 1/2" arbor for my mill, and they took less than 30 min each. Total runout on the 3/8" was +/- 0.001, IIRC and that was using a simple reamer. Regards, Robin ------- Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 02:46:26 -0000 From: lasernerdx~xxhotmail.com Subject: Re: Need some help... Jeff: The endmill you received from Nick is made to cut using both the bottom surface, and side surface. It is not tapered, but rather it is straight. As for your comment on how it doesn't look as though it's' meant to produce precise surfaces, I don't understand how you came to this conclusion. It should be a 2 fluted double-ended 0.125" high-speed steel endmill from England. If so, I can assure you it's meant for precise work (I can cut to within about 0.0003" with its 3/16" cousin on my Taig mill). In your last message in reply to Nick, you mentioned a 2" diameter cutter with a 1/2" arbor hole in the middle. This would suggest you have picked out a cutter for a horizontal mill. I would imagine the price for this cutter was quite hefty. This is not what you want. For all purpose cutting, you would want a 2-fluted center-cutting endmill made of high-speed steel, and TiN coated if you can afford it. Idealy, it should be made in the USA, England, Germany, Japan, Switzerland, etc. The inexpensive endmills come from China, Poland, etc and will not last as long as the more expensive ones mentioned above. The most common shank sizes for endmills used on the Taig would be 1/4", 3/8" and 1/2". I would suggest a 3/8" shank size, as this will limit the size of the tool which will reduce the cutting pressure on your machine. A tool with a 1/2" shank is getting pretty big for the Taig mill, and usually, there's no need for such a cutter. The cutter diameter really depends on you. The larger the diameter, the more stable the cutter. However, the price of the cutter does tend to increase as the diameter increases. Also, if you will be using the side of the cutter to cut out more complex shapes (and not just facing) you will be obviously left with a larger radius with a larger cutter. The flute length is also important, as you've already discovered. The longer the flutes, the deeper the cut you can take (that is, you can go deeper on the Z axis while facing with the side of the cutter). However, the longer the flutes, the less stable the cutter is, so you cannot take as heavy cuts. The material of the endmill is not very important at this stage of the game. If you're cutting plastic, aluminum and mild steel for hobby purposes, the HSS uncoated endmills will do fine. If you want your tool to last a bit longer, spend a couple bucks more and get the TiN coated endmill. If you'll be cutting titanium or other very hard exotic materials, you may want to go with indexable or brazed carbide tools, or even solid carbide, although these are very expensive. There is also cobalt steel, and it lies somewhere in between HSS and carbide. Most hobbyists use HSS endmills. The number of flutes doesn't really matter for many applications. However, the more flutes, the faster you can cut, and I believe they're more expensive. Most two fluted endmills are center cutting which means you can plung your cutter like a drill bit (with no pilot hole) and then begin to cut. Some four fluted endmills have this, but not all. I would suggest you get an endmill with center cutting capability. Roughing endmills are _very_ expensive and are generally suited to industrial applications where being able to cut at 500% the speed of HSS saves time and money. For an amateur, they're really a waste of money. Hope this helps, Robin ------- Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 22:51:20 -0800 From: "Nicholas Carter and Felice Luftschein" Subject: Re: Re: Need some help... > Roughing endmills are _very_ expensive and are generally suited to industrial applications where being able to cut at 500% the speed of HSS saves time and money. For an amateur, they're really a waste of money. < Robin, I disagree heartily! I use a 3/8" and 5/16" roughing endmills often on my Taig mill - I find that the advantage of the roughing endmill is less of a power requirement for the cut - I can take a 1/2" deep pass in Al with the roughing endmill on the Taig mill - something I never thought possible. The chips are smaller and the tool doesn't load up as much. See our web pages http://www.casco.net/~felice ------- Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 14:11:24 -0500 From: Tom Bank Subject: Question for Craig Libuse: Cutting Lathe Bits Craig, one of the crafts on which we in this hobby judge ourselves is the ability to turn out a decent lathe tool bit. When I bought my Sherline lathe some years ago I also got the set of high speed tool bits you offer and a bunch of blanks. I have kept the set of Sherline bits pristine as examples of what my attempts should look like, but try as I might, the ground surfaces of my bits looked more like the sides of Indian arrow heads than the flawlessly smooth surfaces of the examples. The other evening, though, I needed a special shape bit with a curved front. My grinding/sanding/polishing station was not set up with the white aluminum oxide wheel, but rather had a 4" wide aluminum oxide sanding belt on an accessory attachment, so to rush the job through I flipped the switch and applied the bit to the belt. I was amazed by the result. The bit came out with smooth planes and a graceful curve across the front face. It also seemed that the bit stayed cooler as I was working on it. After finishing the first bit and a second that I had been meaning to make, I went back and prettied up a half dozen older bits to get rid of the Hiawatha look. Then when I got up today, I spent the whole morning searching my shop for a never-used attachment that promises to turn my band saw into a narrow belt sander, which I finally found. With it I should be able to cut lathe boring bits and inside threading tools (that at least look) like a master. So now to the question: When making lathe bits at Sherline, do your staff members use a grinding wheel or a belt? And do you have a CNC set-up to cut bits identically or do you free-form them using infinite experience as your guide? I am interested in knowing whether I stumbled onto a common practice or just a method for an amateur like myself to turn out acceptable counterfeits of the masters' products. Regards, Tom Bank ------- Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 21:50:48 -0500 From: "Rich D." Subject: Re: Question for Craig Libuse: Cutting Lathe Bits One more item. If you are going to spend some tens of bucks on a good belt sander and good belts, you may as well spend it on one thing. A diamond wheel. This replaces the usual al-oxide bench grinder wheel (same speed) and cuts HSS, HSS+cobalt and carbides all day long. Glendo and probly others sell these nickle plated diamond imbedded high speed wheels. There are low speed flat disc wheels (laps) also. I use them all along with the white toolmakers wheels. For catalogs: http://www.glendo.com/AF/afpage1.html www.riogrande.com ------- Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 15:51:10 -0500 From: Tom Bank Subject: Re: How to cut T-slots Jerry Jankura wrote: >>I'm planning on making some T-Slots in a piece of aluminum that I want to match those in the Sherline Equipment. I know that the method is to make a straight groove in the metal using a standard 1/4 inch end mill. Once this groove is made, the next step is to use a tool that has a smaller shaft and is able to cut the lower part of the groove wall. What is the tool that I want to use called, and where can it be purchased? << Jerry: It may depend on how much of this T-slot cutting you want to do. I have done limited amounts using a Dremel #199 wheel. I may have preceded that tip with some passes with a #198. It took passes at several heights going down first one side of the 1/4" slot, then over and back following the other wall of the slot. Cheap, since I had the Dremel cutters, but you need to lock the Z axis to get an even cut. The new Sherline Z-axis lock is very handy for this. The took we would like to have is a T-slot cutter, but they usually come with a 1/2" shank. I saw some smaller shanked T-slot cutters at Cabin Fever last month, but couldn't remember what size Sherline uses. Does anyone know of a source for 3/8" shank .395 (dia.) X .095 (wide) T-slot cutters? Again, a second cutter of .300-.325 diameter would help by reducing the amount of metal that was being dug out of the slot in a given pass. ------- Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 17:31:22 -0500 From: ron ginger Subject: Re: Re: How to cut T-slots Make one. A piece of 1/2" drill rod 3 ft long cost about $7, will make a couple dozen cutters. Turn the cutter to shape, mill the teeth, polish it well, harden it with a propane torch, tempter it back to a straw color. Hone the edges with a stone, or grind them if you are equipped. You really need to learn to make cutters- its one of the realy exciting parts of metal work. I ordered one of each fractional size drill rods, up to 1/2". Mark each rod with a tape flag with its size so you can find them, and so you can remember its drill rod stock and not just common steel. This can make great reamers, boring tools, all manner of special cutters. ron ginger ------- Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 21:56:23 -0000 From: wjw2000x~xxhotmail.com Subject: Re: How to cut T-slots You can find pictures of the Sherline T-slot cutter I made, and the results at the following site: http://www.geocities.com/wjw2000athotmaildotcom/projects.html ------- From: gavin.Eyrex~xxrsl.com Reply-To: sherlinex~xxyahoogroups.com To: sherlinex~xxyahoogroups.com Subject: [sherline] Sharpening Tools Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 14:28:19 -0000 I recently started using steel as the medium I am working in rather than brass. In brass tool life and sharpness wasn't an issue - it seemed that carbide end mill would last forever. The same isnt true in steel - and the mills do loose their edges fairly swiftly. What do I need to purchase to be able to successfully sharpen tools. Please bear in mind that I am an absolute novice when it comes to machining - any assumption of a base level of knowledge would be wrong :-) Thanks Gavin Eyre ------- Hi Gavin, I have been cutting steel, drill rod, 303 stainless, brass and whatever for a long time with HSS with very little need for sharpening. I would suspect you are not using proper speeds and feeds or lubricant. Running an end mill too fast will burn up the edge. As for sharpening there are the Tinker and Quorn cutter grinders as well as others that have been published in the Home Shop Machinist. For the difficulty, time and expense involved to build one it is more economical just to buy new end mills. I have had the Tinker for years in kit form, unbuilt. (Someday I'll build it.) I have my large end mills sent to a commercial grind shop because they are cheaper to sharpen than replace. With smaller end mills, I think it is cheaper to replace smaller mills than to send out. Regards from Les Grenz & the Queen City of the Rockies. AWI 18150 NAWCC 82932 ------- Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 21:49:03 -0700 From: "Les Grenz" Subject: Re: Mini-Lathe Tooling System For years I have used what I think is the greatest tooling system since sliced bread for the mini lathes. I have used them for 20 years. First on a Unimat 3, then on the Sherline. The tooling is presently sold by Travers. I am taking the information from a 1997/98 catalog. It is called the Unique Tooling System by TTC. It consists of a left and right 5/16" shank tool holder, mini boring bar and cut off tool. The holders use HSS or C5 carbide inserts which are about 2" long. A quick grind on the end of the tool, and a lick and a swipe on the side gives an excellent cutting edge. The insert also has a built in chip breaker along its entire length. No more worries about rake angles. The insert is only 1/8" wide which is ideal for micromachining. I cut every thing from brass to stainless. And that is my not so humble opinion. It is: http://www.travers.com Try them, you'll like them and they are relatively inexpensive. Regards from Les Grenz & the Queen City of the Rockies. AWI 18150 NAWCC 82932 ------- Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2001 21:22:23 -0500 From: "Marshall Pharoah" Subject: Re: Re: 55 degree dovetails > > Several people in the past have looked for 55 degree dovetail > > cutters (unsuccessfully). Dont the carbide inserts that Sherline > > reccomends for the lathe have a 55degree angle? Shouldn't be > > too hard to make up a special cutter similar to the carbide fly > > cutter for the mill. Marshall > The one way I was thinking of doing this is to use a 45 degree > dovetail cutter first, then tilt the work piece 10 degrees and make > some more passes with the 45 dovetail. Setting the height and > position of the cutter would take some care. Steve That would do it. If I ever have to do one, I'll fire up the South Bend shaper. Another way would be to grind a cutter for the Sherline gear cutter or possibly the fly cutter. But I think it would be fairly simple to turn a 55 degree taper on a #1 mt blank, and then cut out a wedge for the carbide insert. I think they grind those fairly accurately. Marshall ------- Date: Sat, 03 Mar 2001 03:17:23 -0000 From: wjw2000x~xxhotmail.com Subject: Re: 55 degree dovetails Actually, the lathe bed angle is something like 55-1/2 degrees. Check out the Sherline web site for their standard dimensions. I don't think that they have actually adopted 55-1/2 degrees, but rather adjust their machines to match some samples of the early production parts. If you need to match the lathe bed angles "exactly", perhaps it would be better to "scrape in" the matching part, or somehow adjust the angle of your cutting tool until the part picks up an even coating of marking medium from the lathe bed. Trial and error. ------- Date: Sat, 03 Mar 2001 15:01:45 -0500 From: Tom Bank Subject: Re: Re: 55 degree dovetails The way I cut the 55 degree angle was with a 45 degree dovetail cutter. I set the work piece in my vise, front to back on the mill table. Then I angled the milling head 10 degrees, cutting on the Y -axis, and proceeded left to right on the X-axis until the cut was as deep as I needed. As for the half a degree (55-1/2 degrees), when I lock on, it grips. I don't know whether my piece is over or under 55 degrees. I don't know how much it takes to cause problems. Regards, Tom ------- Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2001 19:51:26 -0500 From: Thomas Gilmour Subject: Re: Half Inch Mill Chuck Jerry: Taig has blank arbors that are threaded and fit on the Sherline. They look like the Sherline 3/8" end mill holder, only longer and with no hole through the business end. You do have to face off .2" to .3" from the threaded end so enough of the threads engage on the spindle. Then you can drill and bore for whatever you need. They're made of leaded steel and machine very easily. I believe the part # is 1132 and they only cost $1.75 each! They do list more than one blank arbor but the other one I believe has had additional work done to it and it costs $2.95. Their site is www.taigtools.com and I think they're listed under accessories. Tom ------- Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 23:12:46 -0500 From: "John Guenther" Subject: RE: Half Inch Mill Chuck I bored out a standard Sherline 3/8" end mill adapter about 2 years ago. I use it with Woodruff Key Seat cutters in making T-Slots for model airplane plug in wing connectors and other assorted items. It works great, you have to be careful about the size of the cutter and the speed and feed you use. Just bore it out to a couple of thou under .500 and ream to .500. I did mine on a Sherline 4000 lathe but I am sure there are other ways to get the job done. John Guenther ------- Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2001 01:00:19 -0600 From: "Al Lenz" Subject: RE: Half Inch Mill Chuck Jerry, I'm not Tom but I just received some of the Taig arbors and happened to have them in front of me. They are 1" stock 2" long. The threaded end is bored 1" deep. You will need to trim off approx .200 (there is a counterbore on the threaded end that needs to be removed). With that and the .300 length of the Sherline spindle that will protrude into the threaded end, that will leave 1.5" total of which 1.0" will be solid material. Al PS I got mine from Nicholas Carter, good service and nice to deal with. http://www.casco.net/~felice ------- Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 09:45:19 -0000 From: ssmithx~xxserena.com Subject: Re: Half Inch Mill Chuck I also have just received my Taig arbors. I 2 each of both the 1130 and 1132, The 1130 is drilled and taped for 8-32 and includes a Cap and the 8-32 cap screw to hold it on ready to be turned as saw arbor. I made a 1/2 mill holder out of one of the 1132. I only removed .150 from the thread end because the threads start at about .190 in. I center drilled and used a #1 then #N and then a #Z drill on my lathe (a compact 5). I then put the arbor on my Sherline mill, put a boring tool in my 4 jaw check and mounted it on the table and carefully bored out the hole to 1/2 inch. My American Standard #303 Woodruff cutter slides right in with no play. The arbor itself has a lot of runout but because I bored the hole with it mounted on the spindal the hole is close to true. I have not put in the set screw or the tommy bar hole yet. The #303 Woodruff cutter is 3/8 dia and 3/32 face and it just fits into the slot in the bed. I have not cut a slot with it yet. You need to first make a 1/4 slot with an end mill and then run in the Woodruff cutter. [Next para added afterwards to a follow-up comment below.] The boring operation was done on the head stock, The small run out may be due to small missalignment when remounting the arbor after removing it and may change depending on how tight you screw it on. The runout is only .0005 Steve ------- Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2001 09:34:07 -0500 From: "Carol & Jerry Jankura" Subject: RE: Re: Half Inch Mill Chuck Steve: I assume that the run out is small enough that it wouldn't make any sense to take a cut with the arbor mounted on the headstock. Right now, I need the T-Slot on a piece of metal that I'm machining to make a gauge for my woodworking equipment. This will look something like the TS-Aligner Jr, if you're familiar with that tool. I'm glad to hear that the #303 cutter makes a good match for the Sherline products. Too bad that Sherline doesn't offer some of these cutters with shanks that would better fit their equipment. On the other hand, it's a good learning experience for those of us who are just learning to use our equipment. I'm having a blast with it. Thanks to you, and to the others on the list who have provided answers to this and several other questions. The list is a really good resource. Jerry Jankura Strongsville, Ohio ------- Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2001 14:56:09 +0000 From: Tony Jeffree Subject: Re: Blank Arbors > When I bought my lathe, I ordered a blank arbor. It was just a cylindrical hunk of steel with a hole drilled and threaded to match the spindle on one end. Not too long ago, I ordered some more from a different vendor. These came with a flat disk attached to the other end with a small hex-end screw. Something like I would have expected the slitting-saw arbor to look like, except that I would have expected a 1/2" shoulder to match the saw center hole, and there isn't any such thing. Have the blank arbors changed? Or did they send me the wrong thing? (The package was labelled blank arbors, and they'll work fine as they are, unless I ever need to make one with a very small hole drilled on center, and anything I'm likely to do that would need that would probably be built on a blank collet.) < The short answer is that there are 2 different part numbers that both have the description "blank arbor". When I order them in the UK, I get the second version that you describe. I don't think the UK importer actually stocks both varieties. Looking at Nick Carter's price list, there are actually 4 varieties of arbor that will thread onto the nose, each of which can be pressed into service/re-machined for other uses: 1110 Slitting saw arbor $4.90 1120 Grinding wheel arbor $5.25 1130 Blank arbor $2.95 1132 Blank arbor $1.75 I believe that 1130 is the one that has the disc/screw fitted. 1132 is the truly blank, blank arbor, unmachined apart from the 3/4-16 thread for the spindle at one end. Regards, Tony ------- Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 09:51:11 +0000 From: Tony Jeffree Subject: Re: Blank Arbors >I noticed the grinding arbor listed in Nick's catalogue only the other >day - what does *this* wee beastie look like? It has a threaded spindle at the business end, looks like 3/8" & about an inch long. It comes with a pair of washers - one goes behind the grinding wheel, the other is very thick & has the same 3/8" thread as the spindle, which clamps the wheel. They sell a set of small grinding wheels to go with it - very inexpensive if I recall. Not made use of mine yet, but it has always struck me that the Taig might form the basis of a simple tool & cutter grinder. I plan to treat myself to a new lathe at some point (mine has seen a bit of wear/abuse!) & press the old one into service as a cutter grinder. Regards, Tony ------- Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2001 20:19:30 -0800 From: "Dave Engels" Subject: Making Gears With A Fly Cutter I'm missing one of the gears for my 6x18 Craftsman, an decided rather than pay $25 to Clausing I'd try to make one out of aluminum. I just wanted to see if I could do it. So far I've made the holding jig, and a 'dividing head' that uses one of the gears I do have whose teeth are an even multiple of the gear I'm going to make. So far so good. Now the difficulty starts, as I'm trying to grind a fly cutter with a 24DP 14.5 degree pressure angle involute for shaping the gear teeth. Tried grinding a 1/4" HSS cutter on my grinding wheel, but that was way too fast acting for fine work, and I was nervous putting my face so close to the wheel to do some accurate shaping. This next worked very well....I took a little diamond wheel for my Dremel moto-tool (swap meet, $2). It's about an inch in diameter, and really cut the HSS bit easily. I slowed the Dremel down so I could make fine cuts, and it is really working nicely. I intend to always shape my cutters this way whenever I've got a special shaped tool to grind. But, I need some advice. Even with the very delicate grinding I get by using the Dremel/diamond wheel, I'm having a heckuva time getting the fly cutter bit to be the right shape. The fly cutter has to have the exact shape of the gear tooth I'm trying to cut, or else it will trash the gears it mates with on the lathe. I could try to find a milling machine gear cutter of the right DP and PA, that is my next step if I do a better job grinding the fly cutter bit. Anyone have any ideas or experience that would help (or a 24DP 14.5 degree PA involute gear cutter for sale, reasonable)? Many thanks, Dave Engels ------- Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2001 23:11:53 -0600 From: "J Tiers" Subject: Re: Making Cutters (was fly cutter) Short of a tool and cutter grinder, I found that a Delta disc/belt sander is great for this. The 1" belt and 5" disc is what I got, for a mere $70 at Lowe's. I suggest making sure it is a Taiwan, not a China origin, as they seem to be better. Disc side has an angle holder which is reasonable for most use. I am making some jigs for common angles as I need them. For 14.5 degrees you will probably want to make a custom jig. Various grits from 50 to about 320 are available for disc and belt. I found that fine on the belt and coarse on the disc was best. The disc is the best for bulk removal and shaping. Jerry ------- Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2001 00:39:41 EST From: catboat15x~xxaol.com Subject: Re: Making Gears With A Fly Cutter engelsdax~xxhome.com writes: > Anyone have any ideas or experience that would help (or a 24DP 14.5 degree PA involute gear cutter for sale, reasonable)? < One way to make a cutter for gear teeth, used by clock makers, is to turn it on your lathe. Use a piece of drill rod and turn the end to the shape of the space between the gears. (This is much easier than trying to grind the shape on a square piece of tool steel.) Then mill, file, chew or whatever half the diameter off the working end, harden, temper, stone smooth and away you go. John Meacham High Desert of California, Palmdale, Littlerock ------- Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 23:59:00 -0400 From: Stan Stocker Subject: Re: Dumb Question Don Feinberg wrote: > I have a dumb question -- not necessarily related to Taig, but > someone here will probably know the answer... > I have a drill press on which the chuck is held by an MT2-taper shaft. > I need to change that chuck. However, that MT2 shaft is definitely > "in there" :-) :-) I have no simple ideas for how to separate that > MT2 pair (it sure went in there easily enough!). > Can anyone suggest a rational (non-destructive) way of getting that MT2 > shaft -- and, therefore, the chuck -- out? Thanks. Don Feinberg Lower the quill and see if there are a pair of slots opposite of each other through which you can see the spindle. If so, rotate the spindle by hand until you see a slot through the spindle and the end of the MT2 adapter. A tool known as a drill drift or knock out wedge (likely by a million other names as well) is used to knock out the chuck on the arbor. A drift for MT2 is a piece of steel about 4 inches long, one inch wide, and 1/4 inch thick, with a 15 degree taper on one end, reducing the one inch width to about a quarter inch. The end that goes into the spindle should be slightly rounded so you don't raise a burr that falls down into the works later. You put the drift into the slot of the spindle flat side up, with the taper pressing downagainst the tang of the adapter and give somewhere from a love tap to a heavy blow to the one inch wide end of the drift. Out comes the adapter. If you want to buy a drill drift, Enco has them. An MT2 drift is $1.79, stock number 292-6225, on page 156 of the 2001 catalog. The vast majority of tool vendors have these, they are not a rare item, as they are a shop expendable item in shops that use MT drill bits. If you have a piece of steel anywhere from 1/8 to 1/4 thick, just hacksaw the taper, smooth with a file, and be done with it. I've made them when needed somewhere away from my toolbox, it's maybe a five minute job. Beats waiting on delivery if you don't have an order going anyway. To remove a chuck from an adapter can become a whole other exercise. There are wedges sold that look like pickle forks used in suspension work, just smaller. If the arbor has a surface to bear against by the chuck, you can sometimes pull a chuck from an arbor using these. Note that most portable drills use a threaded mounting similar to the Taig tailstock while most drill presses and R8 to chuck adapters use a Jacobs taper to secure the chuck. If you are buying a new adapter or a new chuck, you need to match the Jacobs taper of the chuck and the taper of the spindle. You'll see that chuck adapters specify something similar to MT2-6JT or R8/JT33, indicating a morse taper 2 to Jacobs taper 6 and R8 to Jacobs taper 33 respectively. JT6 and 6JT are the same thing, I've seen both used in catalogs. When you go to reassemble, the tapers should be clean, free of any debris or burrs, and DRY! No oil, no Loctite, just clean and dry. Open the chuck until the jaws are retracted into the body, put the chuck on the adapter if it is off, put the adapter into the spindle. The taper should grab and hold lightly on hand insertion with a nice little plonk sound, just like a lathe center. Use the quill to press the chuck firmly down onto a piece of wood on the drill press table. Pressing against the wood seats the adapter just fine. If it doesn't, you have a damaged/dirty/oily socket or taper surface. As the existing adapter is firmly in place, the socket is likely in good shape. Retracting the chuck jaws prevents damage to the chuck. Stan ------- From: Stan Stocker Date: Fri Jul 20, 2001 10:44 pm Subject: Re: [taigtools] Using the grinding wheel set? Leon Heller wrote: > I've got the grinding wheel set. How do I go about grinding my own lathe > tools? I suppose I can do it freehand, but I really need some sort > of fixed support for the tool, that can be set to the various angles > needed. I suppose I could make my own that attaches to the cross-slide. > How about using clingfilm to protect the bed and carriage? > Leon Heller, G1HSM Tel: +44 1327 359058 > My web page: http://www.geocities.com/leon_heller Leon: Probably one of the best sets of instructions around for basic lathe tool grinding can be found on the Sherline site at: http://www.sherline.com/grinding.htm You will need to cobble up some sort of a tool rest, but a block cut on a 7 degree angle with the sawn side smoothed with a file or on a belt sander might be sufficient depending on just what forms you need on your tools. If you have a mill it gets a lot easier, but it is amazing what you can do with a hacksaw, files, and abrasive if a mill isn't handy. Once you read the Sherline info you'll likely get some pretty good ideas about quick and dirty fixtures that will work with whatever is available. Stan -------- From: James Eckman Date: Sat Jul 21, 2001 11:38 am Subject: Re: Using the grinding wheel set? From: "Dave Norling" > Are you really going to chuck up a grinding wheel in your lathe and > let all that abrasive grit fall onto your precision lathe bed? Sure why not? If the only machine tool you have is the lathe, you have to use it. This seemed to be typical for the old watchmakers since there were grinding attachments for the old lathes and most watch books showed grinding on the lathe. Jim Eckman ------- From: "Nicholas Carter and Felice Luftschein" Date: Sun Jul 22, 2001 1:50 pm Subject: Re: [taigtools] Using the grinding wheel set? I generally recommend getting a bench grinder, as the grinding wheel set is really best for just touching up already formed bits. Plastic wrap will help protecting the bed, but be aware that grinding on the lathe will always result in a little grit getting past your defenses. I grind everything freehand, and have become pretty skilled at putting the proper angles on, checking against a protractor, etc. See our web pages http://www.cartertools.com/nfhome.html ------- From: Myron Gochnauer Date: Sun Aug 5, 2001 10:06 am Subject: toolbit steel Does anyone know what the official Taig toolbits are made of? Are they a standard M-2 HSS? I've been looking around for HSS toolbit blanks. Enco seems to have good prices (although they apparently won't send to Canada) for 1/4" M-2, 5%, 8% and 10% cobalt bits. ...no mention of where they are made. I'd trust US, Spanish or perhaps Japanese made steel the best. Comments? Suggestions? ...not point in using questionable material, especially when I'm learning the skills. Myron ------- From: "Nicholas Carter and Felice Luftschein" Date: Sun Aug 5, 2001 12:59 pm Subject: Re: [taigtools] toolbit steel They buy raw HSS stock from England, mill, heat treat and grind. I think that 5-10% Co toolbits are a good deal, even as imports from ENCO. For real heavy duty, try some stellite/tantung bits, hard at red heat! See our web pages http://www.cartertools.com/nfhome.html ------- Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2001 23:00:22 -0400 From: Stan Stocker Subject: Re: Re: Grinding your own bits Gord and Doreen Smith wrote: > Up 'til now I have been using proprietary bits but I should get into > grinding my own . I have a double ended grinder (6") so what grade of > wheels would give me the best ability to grind my own bits? Gordo Canada A 46 for roughing and a 60 for fine work is a pretty good combo. The white aluminum oxide wheels from Norton are quite good, far better than no name gray wheels. J hardness wheels grind cooler, but require more frequent dressing than harder weels. As a default setup, a 46J and a 60J is a good combination. Harder wheel glaze easier than softer ones. As with most things, there is a trade off. You might enjoy a look at the Norton web site, the link to their lit page is: http://www.nortonabrasives.com/industrial/asp/product_lit_list.asp Stan ------- Date: Mon, 03 Sep 2001 04:57:25 -0000 From: jtoolman2000x~xxhotmail.com Subject: Re: Can anyone recommend a good source for tool bits? First, I would stay completely away from using cheap brazed carbide such as those found in some mail order catalogs for a buck a piece. Completely useless. The Taig is very lightweight and not really intended to cut with carbide. You can get good HSS bits in 1/4" from many companies like ENCO, Grizzly, MSC, J&L etc. You will pay about $1 as piece and up depending on quality. If you don't know how to grind, I would make it a priority item. It makes a world of difference how the tool is ground when it comes to a great cut versus a terrible one. I have a page on my web site that gives examples of various tool grinds as well as a couple of diagrams. Any good book on machining will cover that as well. If you need them pre ground, Taig sells them of course. I don't now where you are as far as machining so I don't exactly what to tell you. Basically, stay away from the cheap carbide. Some are fairly good ( $6-7 a piece USA made) but although I have quite a few, I find that I do not ever need them for just about anything I attempt to machine. HSS can be brought to a much keener and longer lasting edge than brittle carbide. Take care jose http://www.homestead.com/tool20895/jose7x10taig.html ------- Date: Mon, 03 Sep 2001 05:03:55 -0000 From: jtoolman2000x~xxhotmail.com Subject: Re: Grinding your own bits YES! Do learn to grind your own tools. It will same many $$$ over buying pre ground HSS. HSS tooling can be brought to a great edge that carbide cannot achieve. Blanks are cheap! I use a 60 grit and a 100 grit white whell for finish grinds and touch ups. I have a grinding page on my site at: http://www.homestead.com/tool20895/jose7x10taig.html There is a picture / link on the main page. Jose ------- Date: Mon, 03 Sep 2001 15:59:25 +0100 From: Tony Jeffree Subject: RE: Re: Can anyone recommend a good source for tool bits? At 09:35 03/09/2001 -0400, you wrote: >Other than country of origin, what are the differences between the "cheap >carbide" tools and US made carbide tools? Primarily those with 1/4 x 1/4 >inch shanks. There are cheap imported tools available that originate in the far East and/or India (the latter in the case of the ones I have seen here in the UK). The differences are as follows (at least in the ones I have, and that I don't bother to use anymore!): 1) The standard of machining of the shanks is bad - the replaceable inserts are not held accurately, resulting in no guarantee that you can replace a broken tip without having to re-set the tool position during a cut. Well-made tools (US, UK & European in origin) are machined more accurately, so that the insert is held in a repeatable position. We have a supplier here in the UK that makes a very nice double sided holder - can be converted between left & right-handed knife tool by moving the insert from one side to the other. Very handy, accurately made, and competitive in price too. 2) The socket head screws supplied were of very poor quality - a couple of the tools in my set of 5 are so bad that it is not possible to remove the "replaceable" insert. 3) The inserts themselves were not terribly good - more fragile than the better quality ones, and with tip radii way too large for the size of machine that they are aimed at. I use Sandvik inserts, generally with a tip radius of 0.2 or 0.3mm for general purpose work, and 0.1mm if I want a really fine finish (these give a mirror finish on aluminium, for example), and they are not much more expensive than the cheap imports. Regards, Tony ------- Date: Mon, 03 Sep 2001 16:03:08 -0000 From: n2562001x~xxyahoo.com Subject: Re: Can anyone recommend a good source for tool bits? Jose wrote > First, I would stay completely away from using cheap brazed carbide > such as those found in some mail order catalogs for a buck a piece. > Completely useless. The Taig is very lightweight and not really > intended to cut with carbide. Jose: You are right about the cheap carbide, however I disagree with you on the use of brazed carbide with small lathes. I have used 1/4" Caboloy (US made at about $4.00) brazed tools in Taig sized lathes for many years. The work size has ranged from what ever the lathe could handle down to watch parts and smaller. They eliminate the need for time consuming grinding and last far longer the HSS . Once the tool post is set there is no need to constantly adjust height of the tool. They have worked well on all types of material as long as you have the ability to ajust speed while cutting to get the proper finish. Jerry Kieffer ------- Date: Tue, 09 Oct 2001 04:53:41 +0000 From: Jon Elson Subject: Re: HSS vs Indexable Carbides got_milk_ehx~xxyahoo.com wrote: > Just following the recent discussion on toolposts and I had a > followup question for the list. I'm looking to outfit my atlas 10" > with a quickchange toolpost and I'm looking at also buying an > indexable carbide bit set to go along with it (combo sale). So my > question is, in the long run which will be cheaper/easier? Going > with HSS and regrinding as needed, or using indexable carbides. I > mainly work in aluminum and was thinking that perhaps the indexables > might be cheaper. Should require less sharpening and last longer, > hence I could get away with using a couple for a very long time and > no need to grind them or replace them as often as HSS. How well does > this work out in practice? Thanks for your help, I got a 5-piece, 3/8" indexable set years ago, and have been very happy with it. I occasionally use HSS tools, or brazed Carbide threading tools, but use the indexable tools much more than anything else. I don't sharpen my indexable tools. As a matter of fact, the indexable insert only overhangs the holder by about .020". So, you can't grind much off at all. Also, the carbide RARELY wears down, unless you are turning something REALLY hard. It usually crumbles a little at a time, eventually becoming too rough to use for any purpose. You can't grind carbide on an alumina wheel, anyway. It will just wear down the wheel without doing more than buffing the carbide. As for how long the carbide lasts, it can last 100 times longer than plain HSS! Maybe 10 times longer than high-quality name brand HSS lathe tools that have been ground very carefully to not change the temper, and are run at the perfect speed, with lots of coolant. With carbide, you can still cut steel when the cutting edge is red hot! Get an HSS tool much hotter than boiling water, and the temper is gone, and the tool will wear out in seconds. Jon ------- Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2001 10:36:17 -0800 From: Dave Martindale Subject: maintaining concentricity A while ago, I machined a new collet for a (woodworking) router. It took me several tries to get something that worked tolerably well. The problem is that the hole in the middle (that holds the router bit) needs to be near-perfectly concentric with the outside tapered surface (which fits into a taper on the router armature). I tried drilling and reaming (for surface finish), but it just wasn't good enough. The drill cuts a hole that isn't really straight or centered and the reamer follows it, giving something that's not concentric. And if the reamer is held in the tailstock, and the tailstock is not perfectly aligned with the headstock's rotation axis, the walls of the hole are probably not exactly parallel either. I eventually figured out that I had to add a boring step. Boring the hole with a single-point tool makes the hole concentric with the headstock rotation axis, and thus concentric with the outer surfaces which are also single-point turned. So the steps were something like: 1. center drill 2. drill to full depth with pilot drill (1/16"?) 3. drill to full depth with 3/16 drill 4. bore out to 0.240 (approx) with boring tool 5. ream with 0.250 reamer loosely guided by tailstock chuck 6. turn outer surfaces to needed tapers 7. part off These steps were all done without ever removing the part from the chuck. I think you'd also have to use a boring step when making something like an endmill arbor. Dave ------- Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2001 11:15:02 -0800 From: "Craig Libuse" Subject: Re: Re: looking for end mill holders and slotting saw arbor > However, when you mention that 'perfect concentricity is always > difficult to maintain on a threaded part, I begin to > think using the mill collet might be the answer. Mr. Dubin: A 1/4" mill collet or WW collet will likely have less runout than an end mill holder. There are just less things to go wrong in production and less ways for chips or dings to adversely affect the installation. Just make sure your internal spindle taper is in good shape and clean. Collets are also a relatively cheap solution and one that is quick and easy to install each time. Craig Libuse Sherline Products ------- Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2001 19:48:13 -0800 From: "Marcus & Eva" Subject: Re: Re: looking for end mill holders and slotting saw arbor Hi Wm: If you are after very accurate concentricity, your best bet is to use a single piece, inserted into the morse taper in the spindle. Here's what I would do: Buy a spare #1 morse taper center from Sherline. Wipe the inside of the spindle and the body of the center perfectly clean. Grind a tiny dimple on the front of the spindle nose and onto the center as a reference mark so you always place the cente in the same radial orientation. Turn down the front part of the center to 0.200" dia exactly. If you want to get really fussy, turn it 0.001" oversize and lap to final diameter. If you were careful with every step, you will have a pin that is as concentric as you will ever get. Cheers Marcus ------- Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2001 03:03:45 -0500 From: Stan Stocker Subject: Re: Honing Toolbit If you stroke perpendicularly to the cutting edge, the edge will be stronger. Stoning and honing leave scratches in the direction of the stroke. If these scratches are parallel to the cutting edge, the edge is weaker. This is something worked out by woodworkers over the years, particularly with water stones and laminated cutting tools as used in traditional Japanese woodworking and carpentry, where the edge is very hard and prone to chipping if not sharpened with great care. If you do the final honing from the cutting edge back onto the tool, so the cutting edge leads each stroke, there will be less of a burr at the edge. This gives a stronger edge also. Best wishes, Stan ------- Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2001 01:31:14 -0700 From: "Steve" Subject: Re: Re: Honing Toolbit Hi Yuji, For more information on sharpening tools take a look at the Sherline web page here: http://www.sherline.com/grinding.htm Great info - happy sharpening, Steve ------- Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2002 09:48:44 +1100 From: "Peter Homann" Subject: Modifying /Making Collets? I have a number of milling bits that have metric shanks, 6mm to be exact. My questions are: 1. Is it possible to drill and ream out a smaller Collet to 6mm? If so any advice would be appreciated. 2. If I have to make a 6mm Collet from a blank one, how does one hold a blank Collet to put the slits in it? Sorry for the terse questions, but I have to take the young one to the cinema to see Monsters Inc. Cheers, Peter Homann Work : +61 3 8530-7755 Adacel Technologies Ltd Fax : +61 3 9596-2960 250 Bay St, Brighton 3186, VIC, AUSTRALIA Mobile : 0421 601665 http://www.adacel.com.au Australian Software Engineering Excellence ------- Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 21:01:23 -0500 From: ron ginger Subject: Re: Form tools As someone noted, you can buy square tool blanks to grind to shape. But these are hard- must be ground and being 1/4" thick grinding any complicated profile is going to be hard and slow. I took a simple piece of 1/4" square steel key stock and made it into an inserted tool holder. Look at the commercial holders for carbide inserts to see how they look. I make the form inserts out of 1/8 or even 1/16 thick ground flat stock. You can order this from any of the supply companies- MSC, J&L, etc. It can be cut with a hacksaw, and filed to shape. Then harden it simply by heating red hot with a propane torch and quenching in water. You can draw back the temper a bit, but for making just a few parts for a model its not necessary. In fact, I have used it without even hardening it to cut brass, aluminum or plastic. Note if your shape requires accurate round section you should drill and ream a hole of the right diameter before you cut the profile. Much easier to have a drilled hole than to hand file a half round shape. Ive made these as much as 1/2 to 3/4 inch wide to cut things like model ship railings. As they get too wide you must cut slow to prevent chatter, but they can work. ron ginger ------- Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2002 06:49:34 -0800 From: mark Subject: Sharpening lathe tools A friend showed me a little setup using a diamond lap (!) for sharpening his watchmakers' gravers (carbide)..... These seem to be most often used for lapidary work like gem faceting / rock polishing. There are various brands available, the best value when I went looking seems to be from Daniel Lopacki. 600 to 1200 grit will put a great finish on your chisels and carving knives, too. (In the 30.00 range, I seem to recall - I chuck mine up using a quick and dirty mandrel, in my "other" lathe.) Squirt a little windex on it now and again (the lap). mark ------- Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2002 15:47:53 -0600 From: "Joe T. Travis" Subject: Re: Sharpening tools with a belt/disc sander? Bryan, I started out sharpening my bits on a grinder per the Sherline instructions. Last summer I purchased the Machineshop Lathe Course video series from Am. Gunsmithing Institute (10 tape series that I highly recommend, I am now in the market for a full size lathe, though!). About half of one tape is devoted to tool sharpening - they use a belt sander exclusively. I started using one and have been much happier with the results. My cuts are much, much smoother now. I have the Delta grinder you do. Metal cutting belts in various grits are available from several sources (Brownell's, Klingspor). One thing they did in the video was to make a bunch of 1" square "bits" out of wood for practice. They cut a lot faster and it is easier to measure the angles and get the feel of creating the proper reliefs. I now have a set of wood "masters" with the correct angles for reference and practice on wood occasionally. The backing platen on the Delta is a bit flimsy - you need to get it as parallel and close to the belt as possible - some of the graphite tape on the platen might help - been meaning to pick some up. I keep the table on the 1" belt set at 7 degrees and a fine belt on, just for quicky sharpening - it's so much quicker and easier than a grinder. FWIW, they teach "grinding" the edges in a different order than Mr. Martin does - don't know that the order matters. I do use his method of cutting the rake on the top surface that he describes. http://www.americangunsmith.com/machine_shop_lathe.html#anchor02 http://www.brownells.com ------- From: "coyneg" Date: Thu Jan 17, 2002 3:59 pm Subject: Re: O-ring groove lathe bit What you want is known as a "grooving tool". These can be used like a lathe cutting tool in either axis, for cutting an o-ring groove on a shaft, or for cutting an o-ring groove into a bore hole. They're generally solid carbide tools, look kind of like a boring bar... I don't know about metric sizes, but MSC has them in fractional/ decimal inch sizes. Take a look at MSC, www.mscdirect.com, search for "o-ring" or "grooving tool"... ------- Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2002 23:08:34 -0500 From: Stan Stocker Subject: Re: Which cutter? Most used lathe tool is a right hand, 7 degrees front and side clearance, 1/32 inch tip radius. 0 top rake for brass, 7 degrees for steel, around 12 to 15 degrees for aluminum. Stan ------- Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2002 15:11:22 -0500 From: Stan Stocker Subject: Re: Which cutter? Hi Bill: Don't sweat getting the angles dead on! I have my grinder table set to about 7 degrees, and free hand the top rake. As long as you have some front and side clearance you are fine. If you end up with 5 degrees it isn't a big deal, it still clears the work. Just don't end up with 30 or 40 degrees of clearance, you want the cutting edge supported so it doesn't wear quickly or chip. Better to spend the extra 5 minutes stoning the edges to a good finish than to spend it chasing fractions of an angle. The only time this isn't true is when grinding tools for single pointing screw threads, but as we don't have this capability on the Taig, unless you do a home brew or Frog add on, this doesn't apply. You might want to wander over to Sherlines site and read their information on grinding tools. They have a good write up, with a very practical approach to it all, rather than burying you in tiny detail more appropriate to a person making production tooling or with access to a tool and cutter grinding setup. Here's the URL: http://www.sherline.com/grinding.htm Once you have read that site, there's a file in the files section, stantoolgrinding.doc or .txt, it's been a while. While some of the info relates to larger tooling, there is some useful info for all size lathe tooling. Originally an email on the model engineering list, I was responding to questions about tool tip radius and its effect. Have fun, play around, it all falls into place with a little practice. Stan ------- Date: Thu, 01 Aug 2002 20:47:32 -0000 From: "volzmechatronic" Subject: Holding Endmills: Part I Most of us have ancillary machine tools to support and maintain our shaper habit such as a drill press, a screw-cutting lathe, and a milling machine. Normally, the milling machines that we have are rather small with many of the spindles being the ubiquitous R8, invented by Bridgeport coinciding with the introduction of their "R- head" vertical milling attachment, or the also very common MT3. Probably the most used type of cutters are endmills with 3/8-inch and 1/2 inch shanks predominating. How to hold these endmills is the question. Forrest Addy, Machinist Emeritus, when asked that question over a year ago, responded with the following article comparing the pros and cons of using normal spindle fitting split-spring collets or end mill holders/adaptors: http://www.practicalmachinist.com/ubb/Forum8/HTML/000021.html In Part II of this thread I'll discuss some alternative end mill holding methods. Topic: Holding endmills- collets or end mill holders ? [WWW.PRACTICALMACHINIST.COM HOME MACHINE SHOP FORUM] posted 04-14-2001 To "which is better" question Forrest Addy replied- I run endmills in my R-8 collets all the time. That's what they're for. A collet wears more or less concentric whereas an endmill holder wears away from the setscrew. Collets are cheap. When they wear out you throw them away. When the spindle collet taper wears out you regrind it right in the machine. The only time I use my end mill adapters is when I need a little extra reach past an obstruction. When people tell you running endmills in collets is bad, smile politely but think "BS". If they persist with specious justification employ the "To each his own" or "Go piss up a rope" option as the situation dictates. How end mill holders wear posted by Forrest- Nearly all endmills these days have the familair Weldon shanks - a sraight shank with one or two flats for a setscrew. The Weldon shank is a compromise. While it's a vast improvement over the Brown and Sharpe taper shank (1/2 per foot) in retention (taper wedging action Vs set screw), the Weldon shank also requires a few tenths clearance with the holder merely to insert the cutter. The Weldon shank essentially a cantilevered shaft held by a set screw. The cutter in the work deflects under load to a rainbow shape concentrating its force on the edge or the tool adaptor bore. Grip a new pencil in your left fist and move the end of the pencil in a circle. Feel the stirring action in your hand. This stirring action is a rough analog of the Weldon shank in a set screw style tool adaptor. Bell mouth wear progresses from the mouth of the adaptor bore to the opposite side from the set screw. Here the nearly circular stirring is modified by the clamping action of the setscrew to a back and forth motion causing the mouth of the adapter to wear elliptically and the bore opposite the setscrew to wear as well. As wear progresses, the cutter moves eccentrically and to a small angle away from the setscrew until the tool adapter cuts on one side for light cuts and drags at a significant angle limited by elastic deflection of the cutter itself and the increased and non-circular wear clearance in the adaptor. Most anyone using a setscrew adaptor has noticed a brown smear on the endmill shank after a session of heavy milling. This smear may be powdery or greasy depending if the work was cut dry or with coolant. It's a vivid reddish brown if dry and dark brown if oily. The brown stuff is fretting corrosion products - hard steel worn by heavy cyclic pressure into the finest powder and oxidized in the adaptor's clearance space. You also see the same products in ball bearing bores and around failed ball bearings. So setscrew milling adaptors do wear. The wear is slow at first but progressive with heavy cuts and time. I was issued four new 2" shank Sonnet bull nose adaptors for a special close tolerence job on a Gray 4 head planer mill. There was a lot of stock to rough off using "corncob" roughing endmills then finishing with extension straight flute and some formed cutters. I checked the endmills when we started and they ran within 0.0005 on all teeth. Within two weeks of round the clock operation, the freshly resharpened cutters were running out 0.003" on the exposed shank and 0.007 4" out. You could watch the bead of coolant at the mouth of the Sonnet adapter pump in and out with the forces on the cutter and the action of the bead indicated the influence of the set screw. The endmill shanks were Rc 55 (pretty damn hard) and the Sonnet bullnose adaptor was Rc 50 (damn hard) but still the adaptors wore out in only 2 weeks of heavy but not abusive use. This lead to an examination of the 2000 or so 50 MMT Weldon shank adptors in the tool room. Over 90% were shot. Not a little bit shot but a lot shot - some having 0.020" bellmouth. Collective recollection over past unaccountable errors by good machinists and very expensive work spoiled lead to speculation on the role of all these years old and worn out endmill adaptors in the shop reject rate. $70,000 of emergency funding spent on new adaptors lead to a reduction of several hundred thousand dollars in the shop reject rate over the next year. The rate slowly increased as the adaptors wore. Therefore: set screw milling adaptors for Weldon shank endmills do wear. Moving on to collets. They wear as well. A collet bore in endmill service wears bell mouth at both ends but more at the mouth that the other end. Collets have a fixed bore length. Larger sized collets have a shorter diameter to length therefore larger Weldon shanks have a shorter grip to resist proportionately greater cantilever loads. Thus, larger collets wear far quicker. Collets wear bellmouth on both ends something like an hourglass until there's only line grip near the center of the bore instead of a full cylindrical grip. Futher use exacerbates the wear until the stirring action and the pull of the flute helix slowly drags the cutter from the collet no matter how tight you wrench the draw bolt. Because the wear is distributed by a collet's circumferential grip, the cutters run more concentrically compared to a setscrew holder where the wear is concentrated eccentrically by the setscrew forcing the cutter off center as it follows the wear. One only has to compare the stiffness of the grip of a new 3/4" collet with a worn 3/4" collet. Grip an 8" long piece of 3/4" drill rod so 6 3/4" sticks out. Torque the drawbolt for consistancy. Set an indicator near the end of the drill rod and apply a known force with a spring scale - say, 100 lb. Compare the deflections of worn Vs new. Note the magnitude. I suspect this is the basis of Jeff Park's bad experience with endmills in collets working their axially. Maybe he will comment. Most older machining centers using straight shank tooling use spindle collets with an annular relieved bore. The relieved center gives the collet longer life. Erikson and other makers of high quality spindle tooling are all very well aware of the dynamics of gripping endmills. They've provided ingenious countermeasures against the effects of wear in their excellent but expensive tooling. Unfortunately the R-8 tooling most of us are stuck with is designed for much lighter service and smaller overhung loads. An R-8 spindle with its small, short taper and clearanced upper fit is not a good choice for modern machine shop envirnment imposing relatively large overhung loads like milling with large long milling cutters or worse, the 4" carbide face mills touted (I love them) for turret mills. The R-8 taper soon becomes hour-glassed and the upper bore suffers from countless tool changes. There's no cure for the problem of spindle wear short of a 30 or 40 MMT retrofit or vigilence and an occasional regrind or upper bore sleeving. ------- Date: Tue, 05 Feb 2002 14:01:17 -0500 From: Ken Jenkins Subject: Re: Making end mill arbor on mill > Date: Tue, 05 Feb 2002 08:31:47 -0500 > From: Al Schoepp > Subject: Re: 1/2" end mill adapter > I would like to make a few of these up but don't have access to a lathe, > any suggestions on how best to do it with just a mill. I do plan > on making a flycutter which I can do on the mill. I'm not saying it can't be done, but I wouldn't try it. Unless you are absolutely meticulously perfect you're going to get runout. Ken J. ------- Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 13:11:28 -0600 (CST) From: Tom Benedict Subject: Re: Re: Making end mill arbor on mill Say, this raises a question: Let's say you've got a Taig lathe and a Taig mill. You make your arbors on the mill, then transfer them to the lathe. What kind of gurantee do you have that you're going to get reasonable run-out? Are the mating surfaces good enough you can relax and cut metal, or would it be worth the time and effort to stick your mill spindle on the lathe bed, and use that as a headstock? Tom ------- Date: Tue, 05 Feb 2002 19:20:52 +0000 From: Tony Jeffree Subject: Re: Re: Making end mill arbor on mill I would doubt very much whether arbors will be "spot on" when transferred between machines, so it may well be worth swapping heads to do this & marking your arbors as to which machine they are for. The other relevant question here is whether the runout would be repeatable after removal/re-fitting the arbor *on the same spindle*. My guess is that it won't be repeatable to better than a thou - anyone tried measuring this? Regards, Tony ------- Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 11:32:39 -0800 From: "Nicholas Carter and Felice Luftschein" Subject: Re: Re: Making end mill arbor on mill One thing, the register portion of the blank arbors is a bit relaxed - you could cut the register portion off and bore a new register that was a tight fit on the spindle register - that would increase accuracy. ------- Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 13:42:00 -0600 (CST) From: Tom Benedict Subject: Re: Re: Making end mill arbor on mill On Tue, 5 Feb 2002, Tony Jeffree wrote: > I would doubt very much whether arbors will be "spot on" when > transferred between machines, so it may well be worth swapping heads > to do this & marking your arbors as to which machine they are for. > The other relevant question here is whether the runout would be > repeatable after removal/re-fitting the arbor *on the same spindle*. > My guess is that it won't be repeatable to better than a thou - anyone > tried measuring this? Nope, but I've still got some blank arbors, so I think I see an experiment coming. ;) Well here's another question: On a raw blank arbor, how good are the mating surfaces. In particular, how good is the flat that mates up against the shoulder portion of the spindle? (This is the area I wound up facing off on my Jacobs chucks, which improved runout by several thou on each chuck.) Keeping the answer to that question in mind, how would you turn a blank arbor into a mill holder with as little run-out as possible, taking it step-by-step. For example, if you distrust the mating surfaces on the raw blank arbor, a first step might be to center it up in the 4-jaw and face off the back end of the arbor. A second would be to mount the arbor on the spindle and... Tom ------- Date: Tue, 05 Feb 2002 20:19:30 -0500 From: Al Schoepp Subject: Re: 1/2" end mill adapter >Al;Mount the arbor on the quill. Hold a center drill vertically in the >vise. Locate the drill on the center of the arbor. Lock the table in >both axis. Enlarge to a bit less than final hole size by step >drilling. Once almost to size, either ream or finish to size with a >boring tool held in the vise. If boring, set the tool with the tip dead >on the X or Y axis. Unlock only that axis and move the table to control >the boring tool depth of cut. Cross drill and tap for set screw, deburr >the inside of the set screw hole - a length of drill rod with the end >cut to a sharp 20 degree tip as in a paternmakers reamer makes this >easy, or a ball stone or burr on a dremel tool does the job nicely. >Nice thing about this approach is that you are sure the bore in the >arbor is dead on the quill centerline. Stan Stan, I would think the tricky part with this method would be aligning the drill bit with the center of the arbor. At the speeds it will be used at and the desired purpose it must be very accurate. That's were the lathe would be handy as the head and tailstock should already be aligned if they are properly setup. For now I've decided to get a Sherline 3/8" endmill holder. I would think that this would be something that people selling accessories for the Taig would take advantage of. I would rather buy and endmill adapter than try to make one without a lathe. Al ------- Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 17:51:59 -0800 From: "Nicholas Carter and Felice Luftschein" Subject: Re: Re: Making end mill arbor on mill Forrest feels it would be hard to guarantee runout on a manufactured one, plus he didn't realize at first that the Taig mill could handle big endmills. I have made a few for my customers and it can be a pain - the $30 sherline sells theirs for is about right as a retail price, or course you can spend 20 minutes making one out of the 1132 and come out ahead. What I'd really like is an ER collet setup for the mill that could handle 3/8" collets. ------- Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 21:16:42 EST From: tadici283x~xxcs.com Subject: Re: Re: Making end mill arbor on mill I have solved the runout problem, which drove me nuts, I am not the one who started this thread but though I would write since I have not written too much lately. After many attempts to make an endmill holder that would run true, I decided to sit down and think it out, and what I came up with was even though the end mill holder (arbor) was carefully undersized drilled and reamed to finished size it still had runout, granted we are splitting hairs here but it was off, what I did was to drill at first 3 holes and now 5 holes radially and tap them 1/4x20, the end mill is then mounted, adjusted, and never removed until broken or wears out. I buy arbors for each size and tool and do not interchange them. The land on the endmill gets a little bit longer set screw and there is a counter set screw on the other side. I like clean and straight machining so all holes are drilled with my CNC rotary table and then a finish "clean" up cut made via lathe. I do get some arbors that are not as straight or seem off center and sometimes they take a surprisingly large cut to get on center, but do to the low cost of them ($2.00 or so) I can make all kinds of tools. Recently I made an engine turning cutter, for making those nice engine turnings on old watches and pocket watches, with the aid of perfect movement via CNC the pattern is very pleasing, so there is little limit with those wonderful arbors. Best regards, Chris of Bradenton FLA ------- Date: Wed, 06 Feb 2002 01:00:40 -0500 From: Stan Stocker Subject: Re: 1/2" end mill adapter Al; Probably a good choice if the em holder from Sherline fits up well! But if you think about it, you find center all the time in milling operations, to better than a thou with care. You just have to think upside down, picking up the edge of a cylinder held on the spindle with the tool on the table. The quickest way to get to dead center on a cylinder is to pick up an edge close to the max on the y axis, then move half the workpiece diameter + half the edge finder or pin/drill diameter in. Pick up an X axis edge, move half the distance + half the tool. Repeat once again starting with the y axis then the x axis and you'll be dead on center, to better than a thou with no fancy footwork required, just the usual keeping track of backlash and reading the dials in good light. Gotta love trig, plug in fairly good starting conditions and the solution point converges rapidly! By boring to final size rather than drilling, any off center or out of round nature of the hole is removed, as you are automatically referenced to the axis of rotation. For precision hole making on a lathe, I'd never use the tailstock to hold the drill except to open up the hole leaving 10 thou or more for boring. The boring bar is held on the carriage. Even if you have your tailstock dead on center, the variations on all but the most expensive drill chucks over the range of the chuck will toss you a thou or two, maybe more, off center. You could pull this stunt off holding the arbor in a vise, but this looses the self aligning nature of the boring operation. I have bored cylinders on the mill better than a half thou concentric with the turned OD, but the setup requires a tenths reading indicator and an appropriate way to hold the indicator to the spindle, not to mention very good V blocks to get things truly perpendicular. Easy on an R8 sized mill, using an Indicol holder, but likely not so easy on a Taig mill. You'll need a spacer behind the Sherline em holder I think, as their spindles don't have a register. I know this effects using Sherline chucks on the lathe, but don't know if this applies to the end mill adapters. Please post how it works out for you. Cheers, Stan ------- Date: Wed, 06 Feb 2002 13:02:04 -0500 From: Stan Stocker Subject: Re: 1/2" end mill adapter The register is the unthreaded portion between the shoulder of the spindle and the threads. This is a contact area that is a very close fit with the unthreaded area on the headstock end of the chuck/arbor/whatever. Rather than relying on the thread wedging action to be self centering, this area provides centering of whatever you are mounting to the spindle before the threads begin to tighten. Done right, a register reduces runout quite a bit. If the register to chuck bore is a sloppy fit, it doesn't do much for you, as is seen on the chucks provided with 9x20 lathes. On larger lathes with threaded spindles, the register is often larger than the OD of the spindle threads, so to make a backing plate, you bore a stepped bore, one the minor diameter of the spindle threads all the way through, and a larger bore to mate to the register. You then cut the internal threads, mount the backing plate, and finish up the machining on the part of the back plate that the chuck mounts to. Stan ------- Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2002 22:23:12 -0000 From: "buchnerb" Subject: Making a Dovetail Cutter As part of my effort to learn to use my Sherline mill and lathe I purchased some of the PM Research steam engine and machine tool kits. I have the mill and the shaper kit. The shaper calls for a 60 degree dovetail that is .250 wide across the bottom. I have searched for a cutter that small to no avail. The gentlemen at PM research said I would have to make one. I also need to make a small T-slot cutter for both tools. What is the best method to do this. My initial plan is to turn a 60 degree reverse cone .250 wide on a piece of water hardening drill rod. Then mill a flat on each side to produce a paddle shape. Then grind back the sides a little to produce a cutting edge and then harden it. Is there a better method? Bruce Buchner ------- Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2002 20:27:50 EST From: aermoterx~xxaol.com Subject: Re: Making a Dovetail Cutter Bruce, I have the mill kit from PM and have used a 45 degree cutter on all of it. I got the cutter from sherline. Another thing I have done on the kit: they call for a 5-40 LH thread on the table. I used a RH thread on it and then put the one 45 degree gear on top instead of the bottom so the table will rise and decend like it should. As far as the T-slot cutter goes, I used an 1/8 end mill and ground it down to the right shape. Not saying that this is the right way to do it but it worked for me. Tim Christoff Basehor, Ks. ------- Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 15:31:51 -0000 From: "paul_probus" Subject: Re: Honing TiN inserts? And triangular insert question. Randy: The best reference for ISO inserts is the MSC catalog. It is free and can be ordered through MSC's web site. It has a lot of tooling for HSM's and industrial machine shops, but it would be worth getting just for the carbide insert reference information alone, IMHO. It is a large catalog and you'll need a hand truck to cart it around ;). As far as the inserts you already have, the TT-221, I, too, have those inserts and have found them to be very good and leave very good finishes, but then I was using them on a Hardinge lathe, not a sherline. Looking up in MSC, the inserts appear to be ISO, TCMT-22X, if my memory serves me correctly (it has been a while since I have looked them up and I don't have my MSC book with me). The closest inserts to work in those tool holders would be (again from memory) TPMG(or is it TPMT?)-22X inserts. They probably will not fit, however, since they have a larger side clearance angle then the TCMT inserts. I believe using the TCMT inserts in a TPMG toolholder will work. You are correct, however, the TPG inserts will not work because they do not have a center clamping hole. If you go to Ted Edward's web page (if it still exists, I don't remember the URL), he recommends using TNMP inserts because you get 6 cutting edges because the insert is ground with a positive cutting angle into the chipbreaker, while the TCMT/TPMG inserts only allow three cutting edges per insert because the insert is ground for the positive cutting edge. The reason for this is that the TNMP inserts use a negative rake insert holder which allows the insert to have straight sides because the holder is angled to provide the proper clearance. The TCMT/TPMG inserst use a straight insert holder and the inserts are ground for the edge clearances. Its easier to see with a picture and I believe Ted has them on his site explaining the difference between positive rake inserts and negative rake inserts. In the meantime, if I am wrong about the TPMG or TPMT insert designation and knows what inserts I am talking about, please post the correct info. since I won't be able to post a correction until tomorrow. I would prefer that Randy gets the correct info. sooner than that. Paul BTW, the TT-221/222 inserts I have used do horribly on interrupted cuts. Useful life goes down to near zero. I have used the Diamond Toolholder for both interrupted and uninterrupted cuts and prefer the inserts for uninterrupted cuts and the DT for interrupted cuts. As a hobby machinist, I believe it is nearly impossible to get away from HSS toolbits and when they are needed for lathe work, I recommend getting or making something like the DT. The DT is expensive for what it is, but it works fine for me. ------- Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 09:11:28 -0800 From: "Craig Libuse" Subject: Re: Re: Honing TiN inserts? And triangular insert question. Its easier to see with a picture > and I believe Ted has them on his site explaining the difference > between positive rake inserts and negative rake inserts. An illustration of positive vs. negative rake can be found in Sherline's instructions for using carbide inserted tip tools at www.sherline.com/7600inst.htm or www.sherline.com/carbtool.pdf. --Craig Libuse Sherline Products Inc. ------- Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 11:00:04 -0800 From: "Craig Libuse" Subject: Re: Re: Honing TiN inserts? And triangular insert question. > Unfortunately the Sherline web site doesn't give the alphabet soup > designation for the holders nor for the inserts... -Kevin Kevin, Designations are as follows, although naturally we'd prefer you buy them from us... 7605 (55°) insert for 35° offset 2256 (RH) and 2257 (LH) holders = DPMT 21.51 2AVC29 7612 insert for 55° neg. rake tool holder (7610) = DNMG-331 (Listed in instructions) 7622 insert for fly cutter (7620) = CPMW 32.51 (Listed in instructions) Craig Libuse Sherline Products Inc. ------- Date: Sun, 10 Mar 2002 14:54:09 -0500 From: "Daniel J. Statman" Subject: Great Source for Miniature Endmills If anyone is looking for carbide ballnose and flat endmills in extremely small sizes, go to: http://www.discount-tools.com I just ordered some 0.015" and 0.020" ballnose carbide endmills and they arrived in 2 days and work beautifully to cut titanium. Here is a sample of what they can do: http://members.rennlist.com/statmandesigns/Style-GK003-Blue-Large.jpg The milled pattern was cut with a 0.020" ballnose 2-flute endmill in three passes each of depth 0.006" for a total channel depth of 0.018". The pattern is then anodized to the blue color. I have no affiliation with discount-tools.com, just a VERY satisfied customer. They probably have good deals on other tools, but I haven't looked yet. I have had no problems with backlash. I measure it and compensate for it, my mill has 0.002" backlash in the X-direction and 0.05 degrees on the rotary table. It is impossible for a 0.020" diameter endmill to cause enough force on the mill to see any effects of backlash. My CNC controller software uses the most basic form of backlash compensation and it seems to work well enough for me. know, continuous velocity contouring is something that I wish I had, but I can live without it for now. Daniel J. Statman, Statman Designs www.statmandesigns.com ------- NOTE TO FILE: The discussion "Drilling problem" is covered in the Drilling Tips file. It has wandered off topic a bit and entered the question about hardening collets (or not) and is continued here. ------- Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2002 23:57:29 -0000 From: "martello_nick" Subject: Re: Drilling problem > Not forgetting that hardening will slightly change the dimensions > and/or the shape of the taper. This is exactly my question. I am also trying to make a collet out of cold-rolled hence the basic info about cutting tapers that Jon, Hank and Jude replied to. I'm now ready to cut the taper at the head of the collet to fit the cup I made for the spindle. Once the collet is finished, I plan to grind it by rigging up my dremel to the cross slide. So, I guess you should heat treat after you grind it down? Assume the heat treating is necessary if you want the tool to last for a while? Nick in Atlanta ------- Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2002 06:34:11 +0100 From: "jcgerb" Subject: Re: Re: Drilling problem Nick, No you should grind to the final dimension after the heat treatment. Any heat treatment will slightly modify them. How much the piece will deviate is depending from the quality of steel you have been using. That is what manufacturers tend to try not to do because it is expensive, but no precision made part can be let without retouching it. If you want to grind before, you will have to grind afterwards if you want to get an exact fitting piece. I do not think that I have a general doc in English about it. May be some readers could send you something for your understanding what happens with the steel when heat treated. Jean-Claude, Switzerland www.homestead.com/turnandmill ------- Date: Sat, 6 Apr 2002 09:43:10 -0800 From: "Marcus & Eva" Subject: Re: miniature turning [sherline group] From: "Daniel Munoz" > I've turned some very tiny miniature tank gun ammo, scale 1/35. This is > I think the smallest I could made with my limited experience on the > lathe. If some of you are interested in the results, please take a look > to my website at http://www.nutsnbits.com/tank_guns.htm > Also, I've added some personal experiments in making pole curtains for > dollhouse furniture at http://www.nutsnbits.com/pole_curtains.htm . > Maybe some beginners like me would be interested in looking the not so > bad results of very badly shaped HSS lathe bits :-) > Any recommendation in shaping accurately HSS bits with very small > details from experienced machinists will be gratefully appreciated! Hi Daniel: For freehand shaping of tiny formtools, nothing beats a dentist's high speed drill. You can often scavenge an older model from your friendly neighborhood dentist, because they almost all changed over to pushbutton chuck models about 15 years ago, and the old ones are cluttering up drawers in the back room. The burrs to use are diamond crown and bridge burs; you can get used ones from your friendly dentist too. What happens is that the diamond coating gets stripped off the tips, so they don't work for crown and bridge procedures anymore, but there's lots of diamond grit left on the sides. You can also use the carbide burrs that dentists buy; the best ones are 1557 and 1558 burrs, or flame shaped composite finishing burs. They cut high speed steel just fine. The secret, is to grind away the front part of the underside of the toolbit on your bench grinder until you have only a 1/16" thick toolbit left at the tip. That way, you have less fiddly grinding to do because you only need to create your profile on the top 1/16" of the bit. Give the tool lots of clearance, so that the shape is correct only at the very top (right at the cutting edge). Cheers Marcus ------- Date: Sat, 20 Apr 2002 14:22:25 -0000 From: "jumbo75007" Subject: 10% carbide tooling blanks I have some 1/4" tool blanks that are either 8% or 10% carbide. Should I use a green wheel for grinding these blanks or just use the regular aluminum oxide wheel. I can (and have) grind them on the aluminum oxide wheel, but I am wondering if I should get a green carbide wheel for better grinding? Dan Fuller Carrollton, Texas ------- Date: Sat, 20 Apr 2002 14:27:38 -0000 From: "jumbo75007" Subject: tool grinding on a non adjustable grinder Many of us have non adjustable tool rests on our grinders. Here is a website that shows how to overcome this limitation. I have used this to get a 7 degree relief on my tools. Very simple. http://www.cannock.ac.uk/~peteh/7x10/tool_grinding.htm (paste it together if Yahoo breaks it up) Dan Fuller Carrollton, Texas ------- Date: Sat, 20 Apr 2002 19:58:29 -0000 From: "jlm_1951" Subject: Re: 10% carbide tooling blanks Hi, are you sure they are Carbide or are they Cobalt alloy? If Cobalt, an AL-O wheel works fine. In fact, you can grind quite a bit longer on Cobalt alloy blanks before your fingers start to blister! joel [REPLY: DUH! yes, in fact, they are cobalt. Silly me, but you answered my question. Thanks, Dan Fuller] ------- Date: Sat, 20 Apr 2002 07:39:14 -0700 From: "Marcus & Eva" Subject: Re: R.E. Carbide and cutting performance Hi Marshall: The reason you are getting superior results with brazed carbide tooling is that insert tooling typically has a small edge radius. I'm not talking about the radius on the tip of the tool; I'm talking about a very tiny radius on the cutting edge. This appears on these inserts for two reasons: First, it avoids the need to grind the insert (the radius is impossible to eliminate in the molding process) Second, the radius reduces edge chipping of the insert. This geometry needs rigidity, speed, horsepower and aggressive feedrates to work well. The wedge that actually shears off the chip is blunt, so it needs a bit of poop behind it to initiate shearing. If you try to take a small cut, even on a hunky lathe, the cutting performance is poor compared to what you see with a heavier cut. The edge radius makes the cutter skate over the surface instead of biting in. That's why finishing tooling is typically honed or ground, and is usually positive rake. The sharper geometry on finishing inserts permits the lifting of a finer chip, but the tool cannot withstand heavy chiploads and interrupted cuts. Sherlines are not nearly hunky enough to fully take advantage of the geometry of typical jobbing type inserts. The best ones to use, are fully ground, positive rake, with as small a nose radius as possible (finishing inserts). Brazed carbide tooling usually meets this requirement right out of the box. Hope this is of some use. Cheers Marcus ------- Date: Sat, 20 Apr 2002 10:59:51 -0400 From: "Daniel Munoz" Subject: RE: R.E. Carbide and cutting performance I would like to share my beginner's experience for those who can be interested. I never used carbide inserts. I only bought once a made in china or whatever import brazed 80° carbide bit to make a try, and since them I used and abused it without knowing much what I was doing, putting it in various angles and positions; it still cut as good as the first day ! And I had impeccable results with it, with very large (1mm) to very small (5/1000mmm, half a metric graduation) deep cutting, especially in soft aluminium. Much better results than using HSS bits. I cut very successfully with it brass, aluminium and very recently acrylic. I found the brazed bit at KBC tools http://www.kbctools.com for about 2 US$. Now I'm in the process of buying an assortment of shapes, maybe this time quality ones for about 3 US$ each. It's still *very* cheap :-) HSS bits are certainly a necessity for grinding intricate shapes, but for usual cutting jobs I like carbide brazed bits very much ! Grinding is such a mess when you do it in a room of your house with carpet on the floor. Daniel http://www.nutsnbits.com ------- Date: Sun, 21 Apr 2002 10:59:22 -0400 From: "Marshall Pharoah" Subject: RE: R.E. Carbide and cutting performance Makes perfect sense. It certainly explains my observations. My next order will be for only brazed carbide bits, in a few different sizes and shapes (I have lots of HSS blanks). I'll continue to use the inserts on the large South Bend, where they work fine, but th e 1/4 inch set for the Sherline will go in the drawer, or maybe out with the South Bend. The regular fly cutter Sherline sells comes with a brazed carbide bit. I've often wondered why this does not chip on the interrupted cut. Thanks, Marshall ------- Date: Sun, 28 Apr 2002 08:21:08 -0400 From: Bill Brady Subject: Re: miniature milling bits skozinko Wrote: >Does anyone have any sources for milling bits smaller than >1/16"? Not engraving bits. MicroMark has solid carbide bits that they call "Fishtail" router bits down to 1/32". They are very close to an end mill, cutting flat bottoms but not necessarily plunge (center) cutting. The sides also tend to be wavy rather than straight. If you are good with a Dremel cutoff wheel you can convert regular solid carbide "resharps" from pointed to fishtail types with 2 cuts. Wm. "Bill" Brady, Harwood MD 38°51'30"N 76°41'00"W - Its in the darkest hour that the most stars come out. -------- Date: Sun, 28 Apr 2002 11:53:31 +0800 From: Alison & Jim Gregg Subject: Re: miniature milling bits There are small "Throw away" cutters in solid carbide down to sizes well below 1 millimetre in size - they have a 6mm or 1/4" shank with a setscrew flat on it. The whole thing is about 1 inch long. They are basically a standard end mill or slot drill. Any decent serious engineering tool supplier should be able to order them for you. We were destroying about 4 a day at one stage! On, would you believe a 17 ton CNC vertical machining centre. It appealed to my sense of the absurd. Jim Gregg. ------- Date: Wed, 01 May 2002 22:26:38 -0000 From: "kevin_sedota" Subject: small shank problem I was cutting a dovetail for a tool holder for a QC tool post last night using a Niagra dovetail cutter. This cutter has a 3/8" shank so I was using the Sherline Endmill holder. The cutter was not spinning true. Watching the endmill holder I could see the holder was turning true but the cutter was wobbling. Apparently the shank of this cutter is smaller than 3/8" and is being pushed to the side of the endmill holder opposite the set screw. It's not just the cutter part. If I watch the part of the shank where it comes out of the endmill holder I can see the shank off center with relation to the holder. Is there any way to shim the shank of the cutter in the holder? Is there any way to use a collet that will hold this size shank. I looked at the WW collets but I don't think any of them are large enough. There are those other collets that you cut your self but I'm not clear as to whether or not they would hold a 3/8" shank. Other than sending the cutter back is there any way to make this work. ------- Date: Thu, 02 May 2002 22:08:49 -0000 From: "keithbaddock" Subject: Re: small shank problem You could always turn up a thin sleeve to fit over the shank, with a cutout or hole to take the set screw. Either shrink fit it to the cutter, then chuck the cutter in reverse, then machine to final diameter, or just make a neat fitting tube and slide it over. If the wall thickness is very thin (ie the cutter is only slightly under 3/8) you will probably have to use some variation of method 1. Keith ------- Date: Wed, 1 May 2002 19:54:55 -0500 From: "Daniel Kaschner" Subject: Router bits I do a lot of woodworking and have a Sherline 2000 Mill and 440 Lathe. Last night as I was staring off into space, while thinking of the carbide tools I would like to get for my mill, it struck me. I have an awful lot of carbide router bits! (Maybe the fact that I was staring, zombie-like, at my tray of router bits hade something to do with this gestalt :-) ). Does anyone have experience using router bits in the mill? I am not planning on using them for steel. I cut mostly brass, aluminum, and a lot of wood. Granted router bits are generally used at much higher RPM, but the feed rate would also be much slower. and I am assuming that the finish would be somewhat rougher also. Am I asking for trouble? Are there any gotchas I should be concerned with? And, if it is possible / feasible, does anybody know where I might get a ½" collet? I have more ½" shake bits than ¼". Thanks for your help! Dan ------- Date: Wed, 1 May 2002 21:54:20 -0400 From: "John Guenther" Subject: RE: Router bits Dan, I have used a 1/2" core box bit (round nose) to round over the bottom of a deep slot I cut in some 6061 aluminum. I ran a about 1500 rpm and a fairly slow feed rate and all worked well. I suppose I could have use a higher feed rate but I did not want to take any chances. My major concern was whether the collet would hold the router bit securely or not. John Guenther Sterling, Virginia ------- Date: Thu, 2 May 2002 00:24:29 -0400 From: "Carol & Jerry Jankura" Subject: RE: Router bits Dan: One way to get this holder is to purchase a Taig arbor (about $2 bucks). Cut about 90 mils off of the threaded end so that you will use most of the thread on the spindle. Then, screw the arbor on the Sherline spindle, drill and bore it out to just slightly uner 0.5 inches. Then finish up the job with a 0.5 inch reamer. Then, add holes for the tommy bars and 10-32 set screw to hold the tool. This is about the cheapest you can do, and it works quite well (at least mine does) Jerry -------- Date: Thu, 2 May 2002 08:41:25 -0400 From: "Carol & Jerry Jankura" Subject: RE: Router bits |Jerry, Thanks for the tip! What is the best site to order |a Taig holder from? Nick Carter's? Dan: Everything that I've read on the Taig users list (similar to this list, you ought to join as the products are similar enough that often what works for one works for another), Nick gives excellent service and discounts from Taig's list prices. Unfortunately, he only accepts credit cards via paypal, which I choose not to use. Since I needed the parts quickly, didn't figure that I'd need support for that product, and didn't want to wait the time for a check to go through the mails, I chose Model Expo in Florida because they do accept credit cards directly and the savings on that part if I'd purchased from Nick, was minimal. Had I been in the market for one of Taig's machines, I'd have definitely chosen Nick. ------- Date: Thu, 02 May 2002 17:28:57 -0400 From: Bob Lombardi Subject: RE: Router bits - Oddest Use Yet? Ever?? I'll bet no one has ever done what I did with a router bit. I chucked it in the 3-jaw chuck of my Sherline lathe, and fed a piece of work across it using the tool holder. Sort of a 2-axis mill. You can use the X-axis to feed work into the bit, and the Y-axis to cut across a piece. I needed to cut a flat spot on a piece of 1/4" brass rod, so I used a 1/4" carbide router bit in the lathe. Fed the work slowly into the bit and took shallow cuts - since I didn't have a clue if it would work. Result - 1 perfect faceter's dop for a Facetron (if that means anything to you....) Back to lurking, Bob ------- Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2002 11:02:08 +1000 From: "Peter Homann" Subject: Boring arbor for Taig 3/16" milling bit. Hi, I want to make a number of 3/16" milling bit holders out of Taig arbors. The reason for doing this rather than using collets is that I can change bits quickly and have their height (depth) set to the same value. There have been a number of good posts on the subject and I gather the process is: 1. Drill to 1/16" undersize. 2. Bore to .005" undersize. 3. Ream to size. I want to make a boring bar to do this. Can I use a 1/4" square piece of tool steel and start grinding? Any hints or helpful advice. If this is successful, I will do the same for some 6mm and 1/4" milling bits. The plan is to have all the milling bits put on arbours to have their heights set the same and provide a quick(er) change system. Cheers, Peter Homann ------- Date: Thu, 06 Jun 2002 12:35:46 -0000 From: "toddfoh" Subject: Re: Boring arbor for Taig 3/16" milling bit. Peter: While in theory this is the correct way to do this, double check the runout of your holes before and after step 3. When making 3/8" holders, I found that I got .0005" runout on the bored hole. After reaming, this increased to .001" or .0015" when measured on the lathe. Moving the holder to the mill added another .0005" for a total runout of .002" just on the reamed hole. I got better results (although it took about 3 times as long) by boring the holes open a hair at a time, to fit an actual cutter. Runout of the hole on the lathe was .0005", on the mill the hole was .0005" to .001", on the shank of an installed cutter on the mill was .001" to .0015". Todd F. ------- Date: Thu, 06 Jun 2002 16:40:27 -0000 From: "jlm_1951" Subject: Re: Boring arbor for Taig 3/16" milling bit. hi, no, i 'm just turning the outside surface down a bit so that it's concentric to the spindle. most of the arbors i've bought were seemingly drilled off center (at least they looked that way when spinning). so i usually true that up before milling wrench flats and drilling the set screw holes on the sides. i figure if it's concentric to the spindle, then i should be able to get it pretty close in the four jaw if i'm patient about centering it. might be compounding errors tho... can't be much worse than the claimed .001" accuracy of the whole lathe set up. joel ------- Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 18:50:48 -0000 From: "mtrsickleman47" Subject: Carbide tool bits [atlas_craftsman] I am just getting my lathe up and running. I bought a set of indexable tool bit holders that use TT style triangular carbide tool bits. I am using them the same way as I would use HSS bits and they chatter and don't cut worth a darn. I set them right on center like I would HSS is this wrong or did I buy junk and just go back to HSS? Zort Brown Atlas 3980 ------- Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 17:55:15 -0700 From: "GSNEFF" Subject: Re:Carbide tool bits You left out a lot of info. Are you using a toolpost designed for carbide? Did you up the speed appropriately for carbide? If yes then you more than likely need to adjust the rear gibb on the saddle to tighten things up a bit and also check the other gibbs. A good way oil lets you run the gibbs tighter and helps cut down chatter. Bottom line here is use what works best for you. Glenn ------- Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 22:21:57 -0500 From: Jon Elson Subject: Re: Carbide tool bits Well, I've been using something that sounds like this for quite a while. Are these TTT-222 inserts? They have a positive rake built into the chipbreaker groove that is molded into the insert. They should be run with the holder flat (level). If you use an Armstrong type holder, it will put the holder on a slope, because the Armstrong holders are designed for a cutter with a flat top, and the rake comes from the armstrong holder. If you can shim the toolpost up to put the carbide holder flat, it will most likely work better. If these are negative rake inserts, you may have bought the wrong thing. The Atlas is not rigid enough to run negative rake tooling very well. Negative rake inserts have a flat top and square side, ie. there is no right side up. You get twice as many cutting edges per insert, but the tool force is much higher. These holders will generally have a little slope cut into the seat for the insert to keep the front face from rubbing on the work. So, they are operated with the point of the insert tipped down, that's where the negative rake term comes from. Finally, you would normally run carbide inserts about 5 x as fast as HSS. On some cuts, it doesn't matter much, the carbide will cut fine at HSS speeds. With other conditions and materials, you must run it fast, or the carbide rips the workpiece rather than slicing it. This is most seen with threading tools. Jon -------- Date: Fri, 01 Nov 2002 14:29:47 -0500 From: "Thomas R. Bank" Subject: Re: Drilling with the mill From: "n2562001" >>> WW collets are marked in tenths of a millimeter and sometimes fraction`s as Al mentioned. However The body of the collet from various manufacturers will range from .312" to about .315". If you are going to use WW collets other than from Sherline I would suggest using Sherlines 8mm collet holder. It seems to work with most brands without modification. The bore on the standard WW collet holder is .312". The bore on the 8mm holder is .315". Jerry Kieffer <<< Many thanks, Jerry. I have a Sherline WW collet holder which works with the Sterrett collets I have. I also have some others that seemed tight. I assumed that the problem was a film of rust. They are now soaking in Kroil. Is the 8mm collet holder different from the one that is normally provided with the Sherline collets? Regards, Tom Bank ------- Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 02:39:12 -0500 From: "mertbaker" Subject: Re: Tool bit size [atlas_craftsman] > Out of curiosity, what's the largest size tool bits do you fellows > use on your machines? Would say, a 3/8" bit be overkill for these > lathes? I use 3/8" ones on the 618, and on my 7xs & the 9x. 1/2" on the 12x36. 1/4" on the Unimats. Mert ------- Date: Sat, 16 Nov 2002 10:10:08 EST From: JMartin957x~xxaol.com Subject: Re: Tool bit size The questions about tool bit size are really a bit meaningless. Years ago, most toolbits were held in Armstrong type toolholders. Then, a 12" lathe might use a 1/4" or 5/16" tool bit, a 16" lathe a 3/8" bit, and so on. As the toolholders held the bits with minimum overhang, deflection was not much of a problem. Today, most of us are using these bits mounted directly in tool blocks or quick change holders. And, with industry's change over to indexable carbide, there are a lot of partially used HSS bits floating around. Most of you are probably like me: of the hundreds of bit of various sizes that I have, I've bought maybe two dozen new at full retail prices - the rest I've bought by the can full at some flea market or other sale. I use 3/8" bits in the 4-bit tool blocks I made for my 6" Atlas. 3/8" because I had a lot of them, and because that size allowed enough meat on the block underneath the bit with the top of the bit set at center height. I sometimes use smaller bits, with shims. 3/8" is pretty rigid, even if extended a couple of inches. On a 12" or larger lathe, I might still use the same 3/8" bits. It would depend more on what I could find cheaply than on anything else. John Martin ------- Date: Sun, 29 Dec 2002 00:51:13 -0000 From: "jumbo75007 " Subject: Re: spillage face mill In taigtoolsx~xxyahoogroups.com, "pwarden40 wrote: > Has anyone used the spillage indexable face mill? Would it be worth > the extra $80.00 over the shell mill version? I have the Shell mill version and I can tell you that it makes a lot of swarf out of aluminum. I have abused it on my Taig mill to the point that the mill stopped, but it did not vibrate. The cuts have been very smooth. I have used it only on aluminum. I purchased mine from Nick Carter. Dan Fuller ------- Date: Sun, 26 Jan 2003 17:33:28 -0600 (CST) From: dswrx~xxwebtv.net Subject: Re: source for mt1 & mt2... [THREADED 1/2 IN. 20 TPI] The number on the Sears box is; 9 (with a line underneath it) followed by 29850. This is the #2 MT. On the web site: http://sears.com The MT#1 arbor: 00925355000 The MT#2 arbor: 00929850000 They are called work arbors for wood lathes. They come with 2 flanges and a nut. (the advertisement says that they can be used to mount buffing wheels in the "tail" stock) Guess those wood lathes have a rotating spindle in the tail stock too! 8-) Leo (pearland, tx) ------- Date: Wed, 05 Feb 2003 17:33:20 -0800 From: "Scott A. Stephens" Subject: Re: Fine milling bit for stone carving > I am looking for a fine milling bit to carve a soft stone (soap >stone). It is not 3D but a line drawing. I remember seeing a post in >this group with a link to a shop on where to buy such bits I remember seeing on this site that he cut soap stone. Or did sample cuts in it. So you might want to ask him. http://www.rainnea.com/portfo.htm ------- Date: Thu, 06 Feb 2003 15:46:53 -0000 From: "Bryan Hassing " Subject: Re: Fine milling bit for stone carving Kim: Have you considered using the small Dremel 3/32" shank engraving cutters in the Sherline #3087 3/32" milling collet? Perhaps these relatively inexpensive, and readily available, cutters would work for carving soap stone. ------- Date: Thu, 06 Feb 2003 17:42:30 -0000 From: "kimvellore " Subject: Re: Fine milling bit for stone carving Bryan, I was looking for finer bit than that like .005" to .01". I have a lot of closely spaced lines to carve. Thanks Kim ------- Date: Fri, 7 Feb 2003 10:53:43 -0800 From: "Andrew Werby" Subject: Re: Digest Number 1034 You can use a single-flute engraving bit for this sort of thing. These resemble a cone which has half of its volume removed, so it's "D" shaped in cross-section. The tip, which does the cutting, is a very small diameter, which can be adjusted by stoning down the point to the desired radius. Run it as high rpms as you can. You can get them at http://www.antaresinc.net/EngravingCuttersFrameset.htm Andrew Werby www.computersculpture.com ------- Date: Fri, 07 Feb 2003 13:20:31 -0600 From: John Thompson Subject: soapstone Soapstone also chips its edges easily when used with power tools. I have tried cutting soapstone pens on the sherline, and the edges chipped, no matter how much I varied the speed, feed, and cut depth and direction. You'll have a hard time finding a milling cutter less than 1/32" diameter that is affordable or even findable. John ------- Date: Sat, 22 Feb 2003 03:41:23 -0000 From: "d12038 " Subject: Diamond Toolholder Any of you folks out there use the Diamond Toolholder from Bay-Com I have one and it works great, however in order for it to cut the best I run it below center. I use the included attachment for grinding the bit, and I have centered the attachment as shown in the instructions. I was just wondering if any of you fellas use one and know something I don't! Thanks in advance Dee ------- Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2003 15:25:35 -0000 From: "buchnerb " Subject: Engraving Cutters vs. Small End Mills I want to use my CNC Sherline mill to engrave a grid pattern on some aluminum. I want the size and depth to appear about the same as if you ran your scriber over the surface. I have seen both small end mills and engraving cutters available. Which would be the best choice for this application? What are the pros and cons of each? I am just beginning to learn to use my CNC conversion and have not tried any engraving yet. Bruce Buchner ------- Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2003 11:31:10 -0500 From: RichD Subject: Re: Engraving Cutters vs. Small End Mills Bruce, Many folks use a simple home built spring loaded scribing tool to do just as you say. This is held just as a cutter and the "depth" setting is the tip depressed against the spring enough to get a good scratched line. This is a great tool for testing toolpaths on scrap plastic or metal or the finished part. My tool is a 1/4" diameter piece of steel rod with a hole drilled in the end for a tiny spring robbed from a miniature toggle switch handle and an old phonograph needle (I never throw anything away) as the tool tip. A sewing needle cut down to work may do as well. The only serious requirement is to get a good fit in the hole so the side play doesn't make jig-jags on path changes. A dap of grease in the hole retains the needle.Sharpen or dress the tip to get the desired effect in your material. RichD ------- Date: Mon, 03 Mar 2003 17:10:14 -0000 From: "abbylynx " Subject: Very confused -> Mill sizing & End Mill Holders I have a Sherline mill with the 6MM end Mill holder and a few 6MM cutting bits.. these were the only size cutting bits that the store had when I ordered my mill. The problem is that my smallest bit is only 3MM (about 1/8") and I'd like to cut with a smaller bit. I also want to cut deeper than the 1/2" I'm limited to with the short length of my existing bits. The problem comes about when I want to order new endmills, because it seems the 6MM type are very sparse. I think I need to dump this size and get a different end mill holder/collet set. Can anyone steer me in the right direction, and perhaps also suggest sites with bits/etc on? In particular, I'm looking for some small bits around or under 1MM (1/16"), and some slightly longer ones (say ~2" long, 3/16"). What endmill holder size, or collet set should I get? Silly 6MM size. Thanks! ------- Date: Mon, 03 Mar 2003 17:27:25 -0000 From: "ptlarry2003 " Subject: Re: Very confused -> Mill sizing & End Mill Holders Try www.discount-tools.com Larry M ------- Date: Mon, 03 Mar 2003 18:15:57 -0000 From: "notinsync10 " Subject: Re: Very confused -> Mill sizing & End Mill Holders End mills are available in a 3/16th's shank 2-flute down to 1/32nd's with a cutting length of 3/32nd's. 4-flute down to 1/16th's with a 3/16th's cutting length. The smallest end mill I've seen with a 2" cutting length is 1/2" with a 1/2" shank. Anything smaller in diameter is considered to have too much deflection for maintaining accuracy at that depth. In order to achieve a cutting depth of 2" with a boring bar, it will require a min. bore diameter of approx. 1/2". Again, rigidity is the issue. Try MSC Industrial Supply at www.mscdirect.com Take care, J.B. Neiswander ------- Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2003 12:53:23 -0600 From: "Scott Peterson" Subject: Re: Very confused -> Mill sizing & End Mill Holders Try R L Schmidt.. http://www.rlschmitt.com/metric.htm ..They make 6mm bits in carbide in half-millimeter increments from 1mm to 6mm...both ball and square. Give 'em a call to discuss depth of cut before you order, I'm not sure where they start the flare to the shank diameter on the smaller tools. Also ask about their over runs and blems http://www.rlschmitt.com/Blemlist.htm , (note that the online list is out of date) I've grabbed several of these and they work well...avoid the chipped ones, unless you can clean them up yourself. ------- Date: Sun, 09 Mar 2003 18:12:46 -0500 From: Stan Stocker Subject: Re: resharpening carbide cutters > Hi folks, just going through the piles of cutters that I got > with the lathe. The bulk are carbide, and most have a ding/ > chip/big flippin'hole on the cutting tip. > What will it take to get these back into service? Can I just > dress them on the bench grinder? Or anything special dealing > with the carbide faces? There are wheels made for sharpening carbide. Most of them have a depressed center and are meant to be mounted on heavy duty grinders, often the ones sold with multiple tables and such, and having a 1 or 1 1/4 inch spindle or a flange mounting setup. There are also diamond wheels sold for this application, but again, getting one set up on a standard bench grinder may be more work than it's worth. Unless you have a lot of cutters, and know thay are of quite good quality, you might be better off to just get some indexable carbide toolholders and inserts if you need carbide. FWIW, HSS can be made sharper than most carbides, and often gives a better finish. I keep carbide on most of the lathes for general work, but when I want a really nice finish I usually swap over to M2 or 10% cobalt HSS cutters that have had the cutting edged honed with a hard arkansas stone. Cheers, Stan ------- Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2003 00:13:34 -0600 From: "jerdal" Subject: Re: resharpening carbide cutters Go to Woodcraft, locally or on-line, and get some EZE-Lap diamond hones. Flat plate on a plastic handle. They will let you do quite a bit of honing and shaping of the edge. A regular aluminum oxide wheel should not cut carbide, you need silicon carbide wheel. That said, my pink aluminum oxide wheel cuts the heck out of carbide, for some reason. I found out when my diamond dresser gave out, and I used a junk carbide bit. Didn't face the wheel, the wheel faced it! Jerrold. ------- Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2003 14:13:13 -0400 From: Stan Stocker Subject: Re: newbie endmill question- 2 flute or 4 flute? As you're already signed up with Yahoo, you might join the mill_drill group and browse the old postings for more information than a single post could (or should) contain. A 2 flute end mill typically is capable of plunge cutting, and will cut slots that are smoother and closer to size. The UK folks ofter refer to these as slot drills. The reason is that a 4 flute endmill has a cutting edge 90 degrees behind the leading edge, as the end mill flexes from the cutting force of the leading edge, the one 90 degrees behind digs in. In slotting applications using a two flute endmill results in either the edges opposing each other (at the widest point of cut), or the trailing edge is hanging out in free space so the flex causes no harm. A 2 flute end mill is good in material that tends to cut stringy and produce lots of swarf as there is more room for chip ejection. 4 flute endmills can end up with the flutes packed with swarf with these sorts of materials. If the chips pack in the flutes, you get heat and poor finish quality. You want to cut the work, not recut the swarf. A 4 flute endmill usually produces a cleaner finish in side cutting applications where there is only one point of contact with the work, but does not plunge cut. You have to come in to the cutting surface from the side with a 4 flute. 2 name brand endmills at $12 a piece will cut better and outlast 10 $4 el-cheapo endmills, but it's handy to keep a few expendable end mills handy in common sizes if you have to slot angle iron and other stuff that may have hard spots or inclusions. Hitting a carbide inclusion will trash most endmills, might as well not risk a nice Putnam :-) Cheers, Stan ------- Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2003 08:37:25 -0700 From: "Marcus and Eva" Subject: Re: Mill Cutter Sharpen Hi Jon: Are you trying to sharpen 2 flute or 4 flute cutters? 2 flute cutters are easy to sharpen on an ordinary bench grinder...no harder than a twist drill. Basically what you do is hack off the spoiled end and make a shorter cutter out of it. Don't bother to try to grind the sides of the flutes unless you have an air bearing setup. 4 flute cutters are much more difficult, because you will almost always nick the tips of the flutes that you are not trying to grind, while you are working on the tips that you do want to grind. This begins to matter once you've ground the first tip to final shape, and then you spoil it again when you go to grind the next one. To grind a 4 flute you really need a decent setup that will present the flutes to the grinding wheel in a controllable way. The last step...relieving the center on the cutter, is a simple job for a Dremel with a skinny abrasive cutoff wheel. If you can tolerate it, an even easier thing to do, is to just nip a little chamfer on the tips of all the flutes. As long as you give it relief and make all the chamfers about the same size and angle, the cutter will perform very well again. The only drawback is that the cutter will no longer be able to clear out a right angle corner, but for many jobs that is irrelevant. Cheers Marcus ------- Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2003 13:46:39 -0000 From: "n2562001" Subject: Re: Mill Cutter Sharpen Jon, if you have a Sherline Mill, an ajustable angle plate and a indexer or rotary table you have everything you need except a 4" cup wheel for grinding. This setup will works great for occasional use on the ends only. I also use this for grinding small spade drills and half round end mills. Jerry Kieffer ------- Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2003 09:48:54 -0400 From: "Ron Ginger" Subject: Re: Mill Cutter Sharpen > Are you trying to sharpen 2 flute or 4 flute cutters? > 2 flute cutters are easy to sharpen on an ordinary bench grinder...no > harder than a twist drill. I would disagree with this- if you sharpen it so one flute is even 1 thou longer than the other you have made your 2 flute cutter into a single tooth cutter. It might cut OK, but it's no longer a 2 flute cutter. I don't believe anyone can freehand a 2 flute cutter and keep both flutes within a thou or less. I also don't believe anyone can freehand a drill and have really accurate flutes either, but a drill is more forgiving and we expect less accuracy with a drill than a mill. Someone mentioned Rudy's jig to hold an endmill on a bench grinder. I built one and it does work well enough, although I now have a real tool and cutter grinder and that's a lot better. ron ginger ------- Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2003 08:04:05 -0700 From: "Marcus and Eva" Subject: Re: Re: Mill Cutter Sharpen Hi Ron: You are, of course, correct. The spirit of my discussion however, was to point out workable ways for a bare bones hobbyist to get decent functionality out of his inventory of used cutters. Milling cutters are surprisingly forgiving in certain ways. For example, end mill holders almost never provide radial concentricity better than 0.001" and yet lots of cuts per day are taken with them and useful work is accomplished. Probably the majority of resharpened cutters, even those done on a cutter grinder, are not axially consistent within 0.0005" and strictly from the point of view of theory, an inch is as good (or bad) as a mile. In fact, brand new Garr endmills show variations of 0.0002" to 0.0003" from flute tip to flute tip: I know this because I set them up on the CNC every day, and when I pick up the height, I have to find the high flute to set up to. In other words, most of the cutters you will use today are actually acting as single flute cutters, if you set your criteria fine enough. So a guy with a bench grinder, a decent precision square, and a little bit of patience and knowledge of what to do, can indeed make a very decent job of restoring functionality to his cutter collection, and 2 flute cutters are far easier to restore in this way than 4 flute cutters. They will not perform quite as well as a new cutter, but they will be many orders of magnitude better than they were. Having said all that...I have a cutter grinder too, and like you, I can do a better job with it than without!!!! Cheers Marcus ------- Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2003 08:30:01 -0700 From: "Marcus and Eva" Subject: Re: Re: Mill Cutter Sharpen Hi Jerry: I'd like to provide a cautionary note to your discussion about cutter grinding using a Sherline machine base. Grinding dust is horrendously abrasive, and will get in everywhere. It will destroy the precision of your machine extremely quickly, and once it has embedded itself into the sliding surfaces, it cannot be removed without remachining or replacing those surfaces. Protect your machine extremely well if you intend to do this!!! You need to be obsessive almost to the point of ridiculousness, particularly with respect to the y axis ans Z axis sliding ways. (The screws and nuts will suffer too, but these are cheap to replace.) Grinding a teeny spade drill will not generate much dust, but hacking 0.100" off a 3/8" 4 flute endmill will generate an unholy amount of dirt. The aluminum and soft steels used in the Sherline are particularly poor for resistance to abrasion, and the grit will embed very quickly. Whatever you do, don't blow the machine off afterward...that's the quickest way to ruin even a surface grinder that's specifically designed to work in a dirty environment. You need smooth surfaced covers with no wrinkles to trap grit (no bits of shitty used tinfoil or Saran wrap) and a vacuum cleaner with a brush head. It also is prudent to mount a guard with a vacuum orifice (a guard of some sort is mandatory for safety, in my opinion) to minimize the grit that accumulates on the machine in the first place. You should also consider NOT lubricating the sliding surfaces of a machine used for grinding. It will last longer than it will if you have abrasive slurry on it (the oil will trap every last particle of grit that falls on it, and, of course, now you can't suck it off with the vacuum). I'd save my oldest beater machine for this sort of task. Cheers Marcus ------- Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2003 20:24:21 -0000 From: "n2562001" Subject: Re: Mill Cutter Sharpen Marcus: I appreciate your concern and suggestions. I have several Expensive pieces of eguipment that grinding dust would destroy in short order. You are correct that anytime you grind around equipment that cautions should be taken to protect the equipment. In regard to my Sherline equipment, I have occasionally sharpened small end mills etc. over the last ten years without any loss in accuracy or noticeable wear. My original intention was not to worry about abuse but to just replace the equipment when needed. Surprisingly I have not had to replace them yet. Jerry Kieffer ------- Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2003 11:01:09 -0400 From: "Ron Ginger" Subject: Re: Mill Cutter Sharpen I own a Delta Universal tool and Cutter grinder. This is a rather large machine by Sherline standards. I found it used, as I have all my machine tools. They are not common, but they are around. Be aware that a tool and cutter grinder needs a lot of 'friends' to go with it and you can spend way more on the various jigs and work holders than the base machine. I think the most wonderful thing in grinding for a small shop is a Quorn Tool and cutter grinder. This is an english design for a home shop construction. Casting kits are sold, but they are expensive- last I saw about US$400 or so. I would construct one from bar stock and forget the castings. A friend has one, and bought the kit, but found several of the castings unuseable and fabricated the parts. The book is readily available. And that brings me to Jerrys points about fabrication. I agree with him wholeheartedly. In fact I have purchased all of Kozo Hiroka's books just for the illustrations of his fabrication techniques. He is a master of it. Whenever you look at a complicated part look for ways to build it up from simpler parts. This would of course be to slow for commercial use, but for a modeler it makes possible doing very intricate models from simple parts. ron ginger ------- Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2003 20:40:36 -0500 From: "Rob Wren" Subject: Die sinkers Dan, take a look at die sinker cutters (McMaster-Carr and MSC carries them). They are available in several tapers and end radii. They will reach into the small deep parts of your mold for fine finishing work. I use them for intricate detail work on thermoform tooling. Rob Wren ------- Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2003 20:07:11 -0000 From: "flyhighchris" Subject: good instructions for grinding tool bits I found the following set of instructions for grinding tool bits. I'm sure the pros might find them unnessary, but if you are new like me it is worth a read. I followed their instructions and my tool worked! http://www.sherline.com/grinding.pdf ------- Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2003 22:01:43 -0700 (PDT) From: Scott Meyer Subject: Re: Re: How to keep cutting tools sharp..? [NOTE TO FILE: This lone message was copied out of a very long discussion on sharpening cutters, etc. on the sherline Yahoo group.] I'll take the bait. If you're a machinist, you have ruined more than a few parts, if you're a seasoned machinist you know how to fix them. If you do all the cuts, except for the finish cut, remove the tool to sharpen it, how do you hold a tight tolerance? You shouldn't sharpen a tool with less than 2 cuts to go - 1 to establish where the tool is, and 1 to finish the job. So even if your tool leaves a bad finish, doesnt cut, whatever, you can fix it and not ruin the part. If it isn't a tight tolerance, you have the metal to fix any problems caused by a bad tool bit. A seasoned machinist is going to be able to look at a tool, no gauges, and tell if it will cut well for his purpose. The exception would be drill bits, most, atleast many, use gauges to get proper angle and equal cutting edges. Remember the angles you read in the book are guidelines. Most lathe tools are in some type of rocker so you adjust to center of the work. As you tip the tool up and down to center the tool, does that affect the effective relief on the end of the tool? You bet! Does the book "ideal end relief angle" account for it? Nope, but experience will. I know very few businesses that use HSS lathe tools to any significant degree, most use carbide. The time saved is just too much of an advantage. The cutting speed is about 4x that of HSS. I have NEVER seen anyone sharpen a HSS lathe tool and use a gauge (other than threading tools, form tools, etc). Carbide I have once or twice. Usually you only sharpen brazed carbide, you grind the steel away a bit and then sharpen the carbide on a different wheel, and even then, gauges aren't used much. I have spent a few years in shops. I was not taught, either in high school, in college, or in the real world, to use a gauge to sharpen lathe tools. Sharpening lathe tool bits is not rocket science, it is not a precision operation, and it doesnt need to be. The seasoned machinists who were in the study or whatever it was, know that eyeballing it is good enough. When you are cutting, what part of the tool is touching the workpiece? How are the chips getting out of the way? Is there enough support for the cutting edge? Is there sufficent heat dissipation? That's what matters. An interesting side note, I was trying to buy a shop a number of years ago that drilled 1" dia holes very deep into steel, over a foot deep commonly. Nothing critical, just reasonably straight. They had worked out the craziest cutting edge for their drills. They took a brand new 1" dia drill, and sharpened it. They would have a 118deg point that was about 1/4" in dia, then they ground about a 3/8" concave radius for the rest of the cutting edge. The 1/4" dia portion would be just dark blue from the grinding heat. Crazier than hell, but they cut faster than any standard drill I have ever seen, and coolant/lubrication was an afterthought at best. Scott David wrote:And if it doesn't, and you've ruined the part, and your supervisor is breathing down your neck, then what? There was a comment made in this thread that only a couple out of 10 (or was it 20) seasoned machinists got a tool bit within 2 degrees by eye. So what? I betcha every single one of those tools would cut well. ------- Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 19:36:34 -0400 From: "Thomas R. Bank" Subject: Re: Lathe tool grinding gauge / was How to keep cutting tools sharp..? Marcus Carius wrote: <> I wince to admit it, but my favorite Sherline lathe tool is a HSS bit ground approximately 10 degrees back on both side and top and 10 degrees angling back from the point on the end surface. I put it in the tool holder one way to cut to the left and just flip it a quarter turn when cutting to the right. It is easy to touch up with one of those small diamond grit bars. It works so well for me that it is too much trouble to dig in my lathe parts box for special bits unless I need a special shape to achieve a special effect. I also grind my lathe tools on a belt sander rather than a grinding wheel. The reason is simple. I lack the experience to be able to do the job on a wheel without developing more scallops than a fish has scales (I do rough new bits to general shape with a white wheel just to save the belt). With the belt sander I have made boring bits that are as smoothly done as the one that Sherline sells, the square bit job, and they work as well. I got my sander from Lee Valley for fifty some dollars and equipped it with a used oil furnace motor. Tom Bank ------- Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 22:42:04 -0400 From: RichD Subject: Re: Re: How to keep cutting tools sharp..? > Anyone know of a reasonable prices tool bit sharpener? Glendo has a > model for $599 which is above my budget for once in a while sharpening. Eric, since you opened the door, the machine has been home built many times hereabouts with the 5" Glendo 600 grit diamond wheel. There are no drawings available, everyone just makes it his way. I studied the catalog picture, saw the specs and whipped up my own copy out of scrap box stuff. :-) Do make it reversible, about 340 RPM. RichD ------- Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 00:12:03 -0500 From: "Gordon Couger" Subject: Re: Re: How to keep cutting tools sharp..? Get one example of a tool to see what the angles are and visualize how your tool will engage the work. All that matters is the cutting face of the tool must be all that touches the work, and everything else must be ground so it clears. Adding rake can make things go faster on some materials like aluminium and you can do fancy things with the chips. But all you need is the cutting face engaging the work and everything else ground to clear the work. This gets tricky for an inside threading tool and a 45 degree boring bit but most other things are not too bad. Get some 1/4 inch tool steel and practice it doesn't take long to grind a 1/4 inch bit and they are cheap. Practice until you know if it will work before you try it. A lot of it is coordination of your hands and making sure you don't ruin the edge on the grinder. Once you have 1/4 inch tools down, the big ones will be easy but slow. Guess at the angle and then measure it and see how close you can get. Once you learn it, you have it for life. I learned to sharpen bits free hand 40 years ago and I skipped 20 years and never touched one and it was just like riding a bicycle. It also got me all the nasty drilling jobs in the shop that screwed up bits because the foreman and I were the only ones that could sharpen a bit. Mill bits are harder than lathe bits but once you learn how they are supposed to look, and why they don't look that way, you're there. Just try it until you get it right. It won't take that long. Good luck Gordon ------- Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 00:09:33 EDT From: catboat15x~xxaol.com Subject: Re: Digest Number 1235 [SHERLINE GROUP] eabracherx~xxaol.com writes: > I know there are different angles for cutting different metals. > Has anyone put out a list of angles for various metals? > Say one for Aluminum. another for brass and another for steel, etc.eric Several handbooks give this information and the manual that came with my Atlas Lathe has that information. But, the problem with the tables and some other recomendations are that they are designed for production shops. Where maximum tool life and product output means money in the bank. I think most of us cutting metal as part of our hobbies can't really take advantage of the tables as we may be cutting a brass cylinder for an engine then pick up a chunk of aluminum for the piston and when that is done use some hard bronze for the bearings as well as steel for shafting. This implies a whole lot of tools around or constant regrinding of shapes. I try to grind kind of a universal tool shape that gives good finish and reasonable cutting speed. The old time American lathes usually had lantern type tool posts with a wedge and rocker. When using 1/4 square bits they come with front rake already formed and the Armstrong tool holders give automatic back rake so actually little grinding or shaping is needed to make a reasonable tool unless you want to add chip breakers or special shapes for that really odd job you are working on. Whatever angles you grind on your grinder it seems the most important thing is to keep a stone nearby, a diamond hone for harder stuff or an Arkansas stone for HSS and polish up that cutting tip, makes a big difference in tool life and the finish on the work. John in the high desert of California 12 inch Atlas Mini Mill Rusty file ------- Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2003 11:57:14 -0700 From: "Bob May" Subject: Re: Rebushing a backhoe with the Atlas 10F Several things to remmber when making tool bits. Make the edge a good straight line rather than let it wander about in depth from the face. The good looking edge looks like it was done on a nice flat grinder. The cutting edge needs to be the trailing edge of the grind. Putting the edge on the leading edge tends to make the edge rounded. Make sure that the majority of the cutting edge has a slightly larger angle for the undercut and finish up on the edge with the right angle. Those cheap diamond stones are nice for finishing cutters edges. Try not to use the top of the cutter to do any relief of the cutter edge as this tends to shorten the life of that cutter as you will eventually grind it all away. It is acceptable to stone the top of a cutter to help in getting rid of the curled edge but only as much as is necessary to get that sharp edge that cuts so well. Bob May http://nav.to/bobmay NEW! http://bobmay.astronomy.net ------- Date: Sat, 04 Oct 2003 18:19:30 -0700 From: Donald Qualls Subject: Re: sharpening flycutters catfish7251 wrote: > I set up my HF 7X10 lathe to use for milling, A flycutter seemed like > the right tool for my project, MY question is how do I sharpen my HSS > tools for a facing and edge cut. A fly cutter makes an intermittent cut, so it should be ground more like a shaper bit than a lathe tool. Typically, that means more support for the edge than you'd need with a lathe tool. That said, people have gotten many-many hours of good work from presharpened right hand lathe tools, if the fly cutter holds the tool at right angles to the work. If the cutter holds the tool at a sharp angle, like some premade fly cutters, you may need a narrower nose angle than you'd usually use. Donald Qualls, aka The Silent Observer Lathe Building Pages http://silent1.home.netcom.com/HomebuiltLathe.htm Speedway 7x12 Lathe Pages http://silent1.home.netcom.com/my7x12.htm ------- Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2003 09:27:02 -0400 From: "Statman Designs, LLC" Subject: Re: Re: Carbide inserts. > Hi Dan, I was reading some of the previous posting and you advise to > obtain inserts to replace those that come with the imports tools for > the Sherline. I just bought a set of those tools and would like where > do you get your inserts and which kind are you getting. I know they > are the tt221 types. There are several grades, c2, c5 etc. Which ones > do you have experience with. Thanks, Jose. I troll on ebay for them. One day I hit the jackpot and got 100 TiN coated Kennametal inserts for about $35 (These retail for approx $10 apiece). I have been using these for over 2 years and I still have about 30-40 of them left. J&L Industrial sells any inserts that you could want. The grade you want depends on the materials you will cut, I have no advice for you in this regard. Daniel J. Statman, Statman Designs www.statmandesigns.com dan.statmanx~xxrennlist.com ------- Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2003 01:12:51 -0400 From: Stan Stocker Subject: Re: Sharpening Flycutter? mmurray701 wrote: > I'm having some problems keeping an edge on my flycutter. I have it > set so it cuts a diameter of about 1.5", and I'm running it at > around 1200-1500 RPM in aluminium. I do realize that this is way to > fast but the time it saves is worth the wear. > It still seemed to last quite some time before resharpening and then > just a few minuites on a stone and it was fine again. > Its been sharpened quite a few times now and its no longer staying > sharp for as long. It cuts great after sharpening it but seems to > loose its edge after just a half dozen or so parts. I guess I'm > doing something wrong. I know there are alot of factors here but is > there anything obvious that i'm likely doing wrong to cause it to > cut great but then quickly loose its edge? Thanks in advance. Mark Hi Mark, Take a look at the tool angles. It sounds like you may have ground in too much rake, clearance, or both. This results in a very sharp edge that is poorly supported and wears out quickly. You may also have lost your tip radius so the point is doing more of the cutting through any skin than before. This is all assuming that you are using the same material as before. I run flycutters fast also. Have you changed your grinding process by any chance? If you are now grinding parallel to the cutting edge for touch up, while having originally ground perpendicular to the edge, the edge will not last as long unless you stone off all grinding marks. Cheers, Stan ------- Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2003 11:03:50 -0400 From: Stan Stocker Subject: Re: Sharpening Flycutter? Carol & Jerry Jankura wrote: > I wonder if the cutter has gotten hot enough to lose some of its > hardness, which would account for your having to sharpen it more. > You might want to consider a carbide cutter instead. Hi Jerry, If the cutter is HSS it would have had to be heated to above a red heat to loose it's hardness. Unlike simple carbon steels like drill rod, 1090, and the like, HSS was created for production use where the cutter tip is allowed to run quite hot. You can grab an HSS toolbit in vise grips, hog out the profile, and let cool in air. Then grind off about 5 thou in the final grinding, which removes the surface microcracks created during the aggressive grinding. Just don't dunk a real hot HSS cutter in water to cool, it creates much deeper cracks in the steel. Many of the older books that are around don't account for HSS, they expect the cutter to be hardened and tempered carbon steel blanks, hence the common presence of a dunk pot by the grinder in many instructions. The characteristics of HSS also means that unless you have a heat treat oven with the ability to control the profile you can't reliably harden or temper HSS in the small shop. If you look at the heat treat profiles for modern complex steels, they tend to involve soaks at several temperatures, with specified rates of change between each stage. I'm sure not that good with a torch and quench bucket :-) You may luck out now and then, you may end up with a cutter that works, but you won't consistently end up with HSS edges that behave as good HSS should. Cheers, Stan ------- Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2003 18:22:10 -0000 From: "Art Volz" Subject: Tool & Cutter Grinders (Spin-off thread from Gear Cutting thread) [NOTE TO FILE: Some links mentioned were corrected by Art in a later message; the corrections were also made here in this message copy.] Gears being a major part of most machine tools, especially the shaper, the cutting of gears has been a recent and continuing thread. One of the major problems "discovered" was that the standard gear cutters are of HSS and expensive, but are re-sharpenable with a proper Tool & Cutter Grinder which is especially necessary after cutting hard and/or abrasive materials. After several hours of searching the net this AM, I have found 4 tool & cutter grinder casting kits and/or drawings on hobbyist type tool and cuter grinders: 1. QUORN TOOL & CUTTER GRINDER: Australia: http://www.hobbymechanics.com.au/quorn.htm (kits). United Kingdom (Model Engineering Services): http://www.lawm.freeserve.co.uk/cutter_grind.htm with prices at http://www.lawm.freeserve.co.uk/price_list.htm . They also have the KENNET tool grinder with much less capabilities. http://easyweb.easynet.co.uk/~chrish/quorn.htm Portland, Oregon: http://users.easystreet.com/depmco/martinmodels/products.htm . Chaddock's book: http://wiseowl.safeshopper.com/645/cat645.htm?712 at $29.75. A good build article by Ron Chernich: http://www.metalwebnews.com/howto/quorn/quorn.html . Some other PIX and notes on the Quorn: http://easyweb.easynet.co.uk/~Chrish/quorn.htm . http://www.nmpproducts.com/quorntxt.htm . Then back up on the address to see products especially to see a Quorn replacement casting using R8 collets: "large Spiraling Head Assembly". http://mysite.freeserve.com/locomotives/page8.html . 2. TINKER TOOL & CUTTER GRINDER: http://lautard.com/tinker.htm . A good build article is Bob Dorin's at-- http://www.metalwebnews.com/howto/tinker/tinker.html . 3. STENT TOOL & CUTTER GRINDER: Castings are available from: http://www.blackgateseng.freeserve.co.uk/body_wkequip.html . Stent PIX and plans for a jig on PDF and links to Brooks accessory: http://www.homepages.mcb.net/howe/Workshop%20Tools.htm . Other Stent PIX: http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/alanhopwood , http://home.vicnet.net.au/~bsme/StentT&C.htm , http://www.aonx97.dsl.pipex.com/WS-page/wshpage.htm#stent . 4. BONELLE TOOL & CUTTER GRINDER: A complete set of 62 pages of dimensioned plans in PDF format provided by Don Willis (1.07Mb): http://www.alanstepney.info/Bonelle.pdf . Additional PIX are supposedly at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/quorn_owners/files , but the "owner" hasn't allowed me to be a member as of yet. Waiting in dire anticipation! This is an almost dead group--maybe "Photos" and "Files" may be of interest--very FEW messages posted per month. If the URLs don't work, play with them. Yahoo still doesn't have a "review before posting" function that allows pre-posting trial of URLs. Anyone have any others, some ideas on better modifications, etc & etc??? Time to get the brain acid warmed up and start perking! Of the 4 tool and cutter grinders described, the "Tinker" is probably the cheapest and easiest to construct--it also appears to be the one most limited in capabilities. Art (Houston) ------- Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2003 09:48:54 +0200 From: Tinker Subject: Re: Re: Tool & Cutter Grinders (Spin-off thread from Gear Cutting thread) Guy Lautard bought the rights to sell plans for the "Tinker" from Norman Tinker who apparently lives in Nottingham. I found this out only last week! Where I come from, "Ain't worth a Tinkers cuss" was the idiom, I suspect the "Tinkers" of more than just damning !. As to use, I'm interested in sharpening shaper and lathe tools, and when I get it finished milling tools for my twice size gingery mill. According to Guy Lautard the Tinker is capable with modification, of sharpening circular saw blades, might be very useful to me. Matthew Tinker ------- Date: Sat, 8 Nov 2003 08:18:24 -0500 From: Kuechenmeister Subject: Re: Grinding bits for a flycutter > I've got a flycutter attachment that uses 3/8" square bits held in a > longitudal sort of orientation so the cutting is really done by what > would be considered the "side" if you looked at the bit in the normal > turning orientation. When I got it, it had no bits so I don't have a > good reference for grinding new bits. Grind them just like you would for a lathe with 10 deg. relief, side rake, and back rake angles. I've always interchanged my 3/8 in. bits and had excellent results with the fly cutter. Just be sure you put the correct "hand" orientation in the fly cutter, I can't remember if it's right or left hand bits. I always have look at it when I am putting the bit in the fly cutter. Dave Kuechenmeister Lawrenceville, GA ------- Date: Thu, 27 Nov 2003 23:32:16 -0000 From: "yrrab57" Subject: Re: Received my new Taig lathe today --- In taigtoolsx~xxyahoogroups.com, "edgerrin322000" wrote: > anyone has any beginner's setup tips or things to watch for, I am > all ears. Thanks. As a fellow new boy I would like to push hard Tom Benedict's advice regarding sharpness of your tools. I ploughed away at several jobs for a month or two and got pretty fed up because of the rough finish I was getting. I finaly managed to find someone who knew what they were doing and it turned out that the tools were not sharp at all. This guy went home, returned with a tool bit that he knew was sharp and proceeded to make my day by turning a great finish on a pice of metal that I had previously made a right mess of. My tools were direct from the supplier but were apparantly not sharp. I have just bought a grinder which I understand is just about an essential piece of kit if you are going to run a lathe. Good luck and do use this group. Its a real asset. ------- NOTE TO FILE: other messages from this thread about advice to the new owner of a Taig lathe can be found in the Taig Lathe Tips file. There is good info in all the lathe files of any brand -- for users of any other brand. Think, and read, outside your own brand. ------- Date: Thu, 27 Nov 2003 14:53:55 -1000 (HST) From: Tom Benedict Subject: Re: Re: Received my new Taig lathe today As a follow-up to this... The same day I wrote that bit about using sharp tools, I was using a boring head on the mill at work. MAN that was a lousy finish. I checked the gibs (the knee gib was loose), I checked the boring head (initially the slide was loose, but some quick wrench work fixed that), I checked EVERYTHING. Finally the machinist I work with came in, whiffed the air, and said, "So how's it going?" "Not bad," I said. "Not bad but not good? What's wrong?" At this point I knew he knew I was getting a nasty finish, just from the smell of oil in the air. "I can't get a decent finish on this bored hole." He took one look at the setup and said, "New boring bar?" Sure 'nuff the thing had no relief whatsoever on it. He re-ground the tool, and the rest of the cutting experience was pure bliss. Any time you get new tools, don't trust them to be sharp OR to have decent geometry. My entire set of boring bars flunked both qualifications. And even after dishing out that advice on lathe tools I totally forgot it when I went to the mill. DOH! Lots of forehead slapping that day. We live, we learn, we cut more metal. Tom ------- Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2003 02:10:10 -0000 From: "Robin S." Subject: Re: Part fixturing... [HERE CHANGES TO SHARPEN END MILLS] --- In taigtoolsx~xxyahoogroups.com, Paul Anderson wrote: > As regards sharpening 1/8" end mills, I'm not certain that > it can even be done by anyone other than a professional shop. Rarely is it an issue of someone being able to do it. Rather, it is an issue of whether it is worth your time. > In many cases, it's better to replace the end-mill than to sharpen it. > Sharpening the end-mill will reduce the size that it cuts to, making > indicating work less accurate. Resharpened end-mills are best reserved > for roughing work only. I don't think that's fair at all. Many times, an endmill will be used to face a surface, so the actual size of the cutter doesn't really matter. Also, a tenths-reading micrometer will accurately measure an endmill fairly easily if you're doing CNC work (that's what cutter compensation is for) or perhaps pocketing with a DRO or somesuch. At work, we just stick our toasted endmills in a box and get them sent out every so often. Other than the reduced diameter, they look as good as new. Regards, Robin ------- Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2003 03:20:13 -0000 From: "minitool41" Subject: Miniature Lathe Cutting Tool Holder (Since I'm new to this board during the past 30 days, I probably have missed a previous discussion on this topic. If so, can anyone direct me to the appropriate message period?) Note: All work is done on a Sherline lathe and/or mill. I am currently interested in making miniature (1/3 to 1/12 scale) models of classic woodworking hand tools (planes, saws, drills, etc). As I move to the smaller scale, I find that my "normal" turning tools no longer meet my needs. I have cut a few smaller tools from 1/8" steel, but I'm not happy with the method of supporting the tools for end loads. (I work basically in brass, ivory, hard woods, and a little low carbon steel). I think I've seen a tool holder which uses short, stub tool bits, but now I can't find any reference to this system. Can anyone suggest an available holding system? On a related problem, I also feel that the appropriate profiles of the miniature tooling might be different from the "normal" lathe tools. As an example, I've seen a very expensive set of cutting tools made for use in a watchmaker's cross slide. Their shapes were quite different, probably appropriate for the needs of a watchmaker. Can anyone suggest tool profiles that are used to best advantage on miniature turning projects? Thanks, John Maki ------- Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2003 23:36:12 -0500 From: RichD Subject: Re: Miniature Lathe Cutting Tool Holder John, for a treat, do a search on google.com for "hamler tools". Paul lives nearby. Amaaaaazzing stuff. RichD ------- Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2003 22:34:33 -0800 (PST) From: John Maki Subject: Re: Miniature Lathe Cutting Tool Holder RichD, I've spoken with Paul Hamler a few times regarding his miniature woodworking tools. He is truly an artist. He has also been very helpful, sharing his knowledge and the techniques that he uses to create his little gems. In addition, he is a real Gentleman! Paul has also developed many different manufacturing tools and processes used in the production of his miniatures. I believe he holds a patent on a "diamond drag cutter" used for engraving. The cutter is now being manufactured and sold under license by another company...(The name escapes me at the moment!) I've used one with my CNC mill to engrave some of my miniature planes, and it performs very nicely! John Maki ------- Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2003 17:30:29 -0000 From: jlkiefferx~xxcharter.net Subject: Re: Miniature Lathe Cutting Tool Holder John, I seldom use tools other than a 1/4" brazed carbide AR4 and a E4. ( threading tool ) For boring I generally use micro 100 solid carbide or similar brand and size. They sell a very nice small boring bar set. These tools are used as they come from the factory for all materials including wood. Part sizes range from the largest that will fit into the machines down to smaller than watch parts. I have 1/16" and 1/8" tool sets but rarely use them because at least for me they have not offered any advantage over the 1/4" tools. If you have a specific example maybe I or someone else can make a suggestion on how to machine it with larger tools. If your more comfortable with smaller tools , tool holders are quit easy to make. Jerry Kieffer ------- NOTE TO FILE: The preceding conversation in Dec 2003 called RE: mill collet grip capabilities can be found in the "Collets for Lathe or Mill" file here. Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2003 11:10:57 -0800 From: zephyrusx~xxrickadee.net Subject: Endmill holder, was RE: mill collet grip capabilities No, you use the mill like a lathe turned sideways. Put the arbor blank on the spindle and clamp a lathe boring bar (square-shanked in my case -- it was one I ground from a lathe tool blank) in the mill vise so it is vertical. I did that so the cutting edge was pointing to the left, so that the X axis became the "cross slide" and the Y axis became the "cutter height adjustment". On a lathe I set the cutter right at center of the workpiece by moving the cutter to the outside of the workpiece, taking a steel rule and pinching it gently between the cutter and the workpiece with the rule vertical. The rule will be tangent to the workpiece where the cutter touches it. If the rule is vertical, the cutter is right on center. If the top of the rule slants towards you, the cutter is below center; if the top of the rule slants away from you, the cutter is below center. I did that on the mill, but obviously with the rule horizontal (think "lathe turned on the side") Then I just used the mill like a lathe, with the arbor blank as the workpiece. The mill vise holds the toolbit very securely (on the lathe you trust two little setscrews to hold the tool steady...) That way, the endmill holder is made right on the spindle it will be working with. Best regards, Randy ------- Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2004 10:49:31 -0000 From: "Terence T.S. Tam" Subject: Re: End Mill Holder [taigtools group] I used a lot of carbide end mills. At the beginning I've destroyed a few dremel cutoff tools trying to grind flats into them. Solution? Loctite blue on the bit to hold them in the end mill holder, then apply heat with a propane torch to get it off when I'm done. Or when the bit breaks. The blank arbors are so cheap, and with a CNC setup it's just so much more convinent and time saving to keep every bit in its own collet. Terence ------- Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2004 00:05:32 -0800 From: Dave Martindale Subject: Re: sharpening lathe tools >Hello Guys & Gals---I live in Naples Fl. and checked the tool sharpening >services and machine shops to sharpen the 1/4'' lathe tools---no luck. A >local hobbyist says he buys new on the internet and throws the dull tools >away. Seems like a waste BUT. Some of the tools on e-bay sound like a >bargain--are they junk or???? any advice?----Bob V. Are you talking about sharpening HSS or carbide tools? Both can be done, but need different grinding wheels. HSS can be ground with aluminum oxide, though special wheels designed for hardened steel are better than what comes on grinders. For carbide, you'll need a silicon carbide wheel (or diamond!) - the aluminum oxide wheel won't touch carbide. I first tried grinding a HSS tool bit on a 6 inch grinder with tool rests that were not adjustable for angle. This was an incredibly frustrating experience, since I needed to remove a substantial amount of metal (starting from a blank, not an existing toolbit) without any way of holding the angle of the tool to the wheel. Later, I bought a DeWalt grinder with nice big flat rests that can be adjusted for angle, and it is *much* better. I've used it for both HSS and brazed carbide bits, and it works for both. Another useful accessory: I have a single-point diamond dresser that I use to make the surface of the wheels flat. The dresser is just a round metal rod with a diamond mounted in the end. I clamp it in a fixture that I can slide along the front of the grinder's toolrest, which makes the diamond point travel in a straight line. To dress a wheel, I start out with a star wheel type dresser, which cleans the surface and exposes nice sharp abrasive grains, and makes the wheel have an approximately square face. Then I take a tiny bit more off with the diamond, which makes the wheel concentric to the grinder bearing axis and have a flat face. Recently, I took the crummy rests off the old grinder, mounted it on a board, and then mounted one of Lee Valley's adjustable grinder rests on the board. This is intended for sharpening plane blades and wood lathe tools, but it looks like it would be usable for sharpening metal lathe toolbits as well. Basically, you need *something* that will hold the toolbit on a plane that makes a particular angle with the wheel, to give you the right clearance or rake angle. The second angle can be controlled freehand if the first one is set by the rest. By the way, grinding carbide with a green SiC wheel is *slow*. Dave ------- Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2004 16:51:27 -0000 From: "Bryan Hassing" Subject: Should I use carbide lathe tools? I am considering buying Sherline's 3/8" carbide insert tool holders (one each of the right side and left side tools) and the accompanying 3/8" tool post. I don't cut exotic materials since my lathe work really only involves aluminum, brass, and plastic. However, I blow at sharpening HSS tools and find it a bit of a pain. Given that I'm cutting pretty easily machined materials, I suspect carbide tools would last for a very long time in my shop. Therefore, I wouldn't be spending much on inserts. I also admire the carbide inserts' uniform geometry and believe the 55-degree inserts would work well with the shapes I have been cutting for my projects. Joe Martin states in his book "Table Top Machining" that the best finishes in aluminum come from HSS tools. Can excellent finishes in aluminum be achieved using carbide tools as well? Could list members here who have used carbide lathe tools advise me on how carbide tools might perform cutting aluminum, brass, and plastic and how cutting speeds might be affected? Thanks. Bryan ------- Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2004 11:15:42 -0600 From: "Nance, Tom" Subject: RE: Should I use carbide lathe tools? Hi Bryan. I think tip radius affects the finish more that the hardness or the material of the tool. Just thought I'd toss that in to really muddy up the waters. I thought I couldn't sharpen HSS tools either. Then one day I found that all I had in the shop was dull HSS bits, so I gave it a try. Turned out to be child's play. I think most folks overthink the problem. The secret is getting the right kind of wheel on your grinder. The shape of the bit doesn't have to be an exact shape - it just needs certain ballpark characteristics (like relief) and be sharp. That's all there is to it. I also strop the bits on a stone, but that's just me. Anyway, I guess what I'm saying is don't give up on sharpening. It saves a wad of cash over the long run. Plus, someday you are going to need some really weird shaped tool, and the only way to get it is to do it yourself. Unless you have built the confidence to grind it yourself, you will be stuck. Tom Nance Corpus Christi, TX ------- Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2004 17:32:07 -0000 From: "n2562001" Subject: Re: Should I use carbide lathe tools? Bryan: I do not use carbide inserts but use brazed carbide tools on everything including wood. Since you have variable speed just adjust your speed until you get the finish you desire. With aluminum you will need to use some type of cutting fluid. I generally use WD-40 but there are many items that work well. If you wish to purchase a 55 degree insert tool [it is] P/N 7610. Jerry Kieffer ------- Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2004 17:51:10 -0000 From: "Bryan Hassing" Subject: Re: Should I use carbide lathe tools? Hi Jerry: What advantages do brazed carbide tools offer for the type of work you do such that you have choosen them over HSS tools? I do, however, agree with Tom that I should continue improving my sharpening skills. Incidentally, I was reading "Table Top Machining" last night and was awestruck by your magnificent work. ------- Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2004 18:36:32 -0000 From: "n2562001" Subject: Re: Should I use carbide lathe tools? Bryan: First thank you for the kind words. Fortunately pictures can highlight the best of a project while covering up ones mistakes. Tooling is a personal preference. My only point was that carbide tooling can be used for most any material witch I think was your question. I started using brazed carbide tools when I became to lazy and impatient to adjust the tool height every time I sharpened HSS tools. The 1/4 inch tools generally fit in the Sherline tool holder with out any shimming or adjustment and come from the factory ground to a shape that works well for the work that I do. They are fast and easy to change,last about 150-200 hours and only cost about $3.50 each. With proper speed and occasional use of cutting fluids, finish has never been a problem including watch parts. If I knew what I know now when I started, I would have tried one of each tool and selected the one that worked for what I was doing. Jerry Kieffer ------- Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2004 17:58:13 -0800 (PST) From: BRADFORD CHAUCER Subject: Re: sharpening tools Sharpening lathe tools is an easy task. You do need a bench grinder with at least a coarse and medium wheel; 8 in preferred. There is an interesting alternative. I picked up a diamond disk, about 4 in dia and arbor at a woodworking show. The disk has nummmerous holes in it and is meant to be used in an electric drill. The point of the holes is that you grind from underneath and can see the grinding surface through the rotating plate!! It really works quite well. You color the surface to be ground with a marker and can then easily see how the grind is progressing as the marker tinted surface is ground away. That allows you to see exactly how the tool is presented to the wheel. Any how I digress, Some sort of power grinder is essential. wheels should be al oxide or carborundum (dark geay) for High carbon, HSS and Stellite, and eithor silicon carbide, diamond or borazon for carbide tooling. You also need a few good bench stones and most importantly a few grades of diamond hones for touching up a tool. It is possible to go a long period between regrinds if you touch up the cutting edge periodically with a hone or bench stone. I keep several at hand at all times. Regards, Bradford Chaucer ------- Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2004 23:02:56 -0500 From: RichD Subject: Re: Re: sharpening tools Bradford and all, If you want the ultimate tool sharpener, see the Glendo machines and diamond wheels. The flat discs (5 or 6") on a home built machine is the best thing going. The circular wheel for a bench grinder is also well worth the price. Both are for HSS and carbide. Also replace the grey wheels on your bench grinder with industrial grade white vitreous al oxide wheels. Made for fine HHS tool grinding. RichD ------- Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2004 20:32:46 -0500 From: Stan Stocker Subject: Re: Re: toolbits ... vks_generic wrote: > My grinding skills are fairly poor (I ground my first one only a > couple of months ago), my toolbits look ugly, but they do work, > usually not much worse than the brand-new preground ones. Hi Vlad: Butt ugly with the right clearance and rake angles trumps showroom pretty but wrong! :-) Zero rake for brass, 4 to 7 degrees for steel, 12 to 15 degrees for aluminum works well. 5 to 7 degrees of front and side clearance is about right for all materials on smaller lathes. Sort of arbitrary and simplified, but good enough to work in most cases and easy to achieve. You can tune your angles from these starting points when circumstances dictate. > Stan gave a rally good link - I've actually printed it out and kept > in my garage for reference... except for their suggestion to use > water. I've heard people suggest using water to cool toolbits; I've > heard others say NEVER EVER use water to cool HSS, or you'll geet deep > microcracks, just grind it hot - it can handle it. I've used water to > cool down the tiny boring bars I was making, and, while looking good, > they failed. I've ground another one dry, and it's still working fine > boring holes as small as 1/4" in steel. I had completely forgotten the Sherline article still contains the use of a dunk tank! Thanks for bringing this point out. Water is for carbon steel, where if the edge blues you won't have a cutting edge for long. Frequent dunking is a must for simple steels (or else you simply reharden and temper, it's quicker than dunking if there is a lot of material to grind away). Dunking is just flat out wrong for HSS. Flood coolant on the grinder isn't practical for most small home shops. Sweet if you have it, but not real likely. If you hand hold small bits for grinding and dunk frequently, before the bits are uncomfortable to hold, you can get away with the water dunking. You'll also take a long time to accomplish much if you are grinding from a blank! Using the stop when too hot to hold approach to grinding, a 1/2 inch toolbit could take half an hour to get in shape to use. And now the barbarians' way to get HSS blanks roughed into shape: HSS was designed to allow tools to run hard, with the cutting surfaces consistantly above the temperature that would draw the hardness from carbon steel. The tool edges can be at a dull red glow while cutting in a lathe and work just fine. Most home shop machines don't have the power to do this, but it can be done. Hold the blank in vice grips. Hog out the majority of the waste as fast as you can. If the cutter goes blue it doesn't matter with HSS, you have to get it glowing above a dull red before any real changes to the material occur. Let the blank cool down to the point you can touch it. If I have several to do I just drop the hot roughed out cutters on a piece of board. It may smoke a bit, no harm done. Using a piece of wood avoids cooling the cutter too fast. Once the cutter is cool enough to handle, finish grind. When grinding, keep the wheel dressed. A star dresser breaks glaze, and a Norbide dressing stick levels the wheel face. Glazed wheels cut poorly and hot. A grinding wheel that rubs (dull/glazed) is just a friction surface, an open grain surface is a cutting tool. If you remember that detail many grinding problems go away. If you aren't cutting, you're generating heat. If you have the tooling, a diamond point dresser puts a nice finish on a wheel. Used freehand you'll end up with a face that is some shape other than flat and/or chipping the diamond. Read up on diamond point dressing of surface grinding wheels before using one if you insist on freehand work, the angle you present the diamond point to the stone is important. Useful skill to have, you can dress thinner wheels to profiles and grind form tools by plunge grinding. Not a subject to get into very far at this point in the learning curve, but a useful item to have tucked away for future use. Quenching hot HSS does generate cracks. Getting really hot does also, but unlike quench cracks they aren't deep into the material. The surface cracks created during the roughing phase are removed by the final grinding. Finish up by honing the cutter with a hand stone. On small machines the difference between as ground and "sharpened" is quite noticable. Bigger machines still benefit in terms of finish quality, but have the power to cut fast even if the cutting edge is a tad ragged. Try to grind outside or at least as far from your other tools as possible. Grinding grit is nasty stuff in the wrong places. A cheap 1X32 belt sander ($40 or so at one of the chains) can be used to touch up cutters, and is useful for deburring stock. Less messy if hooked up to a shop vac too. Last but not least, put good wheels on a grinder. A nice white or red 46H for roughing and a 60H for finish grinding is a good combination for most steels. > As I said, I am no an expert in grinding, but after experimenting and > getting frustrated with my bits failing, I learned not to use water on > HSS, contrary to what the sherline article suggests. I haven't used it > since. Somebody more knowledgeable is welcome to prove me wrong, of > course. I just wanted to save you some frustration. Other than that, > grinding simple shapes isn't that hard. Vlad You're more of an expert than quite a few folks to have worked this one out :-) Cheers, Stan ------- Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2004 22:07:23 +0000 From: Clive Foster Subject: Re: toolbits ... If you are using square tool steel bits grinding top-rake leads to a major waste of material. It's well worth making up some sort of holder to present the bit sticking up at a suitable "general purpose" top rake angle. This is the same principle as Armstrong and similar bit holders used on larger lathes. I made a couple of two way tool posts for a pal with angled bottoms to the tool holding slots which worked very well but you do need a mill for that approach. Frankly, on a mouse power lathe like the Taig, I suspect a flat base with a hand made wedge screwed and glued in would work. (Advanced bodgers might even like to try a wedge of metal loaded filler supporting a flat steel strip for the tool to clamp onto! Horrible though the concept is, over the years I've come to respect what can be achieved by careful exploitation of good quality metal loaded fillers.) Angling the tool bit reduces the number of sides to be ground and makes it easy to fine adjust the cutting tip height by pulling the tool in and out. Its also well worth taking time to make some angled guides/holders to present the tool bit at a constant angle to the grinding wheel. For best edges you need a smooth, steady traverse across the wheel. This is far more important than the exact angle. Trying to work pure freehand it's far too easy to end up changing the shape and angles slightly at each pass during the sharpening process so you never actually sharpen to a good edge. Most bench-top grinders are rather large for sharpening Taig size tool bits. The UK firm Plasplugs do a multi-purpose sharpening thingy which looks like a good basis for turning into a small tool bit sharpener by adding a suitable tool rest. The 2" diameter cup wheels are of decent quality with both grey, green and white compounds available and the beast works remarkably well despite being mostly plastic. Mouse power motor too which is good from the safety point of view. Fitting a bit in an angled holder and rubbing it up and down a diamond "whetstone" is effective too. Frankly once you have ground the basic shape to match your holders the bit need never see a grindstone again. This is another fixture that needs a mill to make. Basically just a block with a slot to hold the tool cut off at the appropriate angle. Fit the tool bit flush to the end and rub down both bit and block together. Eventually you will need another block! HTH. Clive ------- Date: Wed, 04 Feb 2004 15:45:55 -0000 From: "Bryan Hassing" Subject: When to use burrs Hi: I have noticed many cutting tool vendors offer burr cutters. When should one use a burr instead of an endmill? Thanks. Bryan ------- Date: Wed, 04 Feb 2004 18:33:03 -0000 From: "mc_n_g" Subject: Re: When to use burrs A burr is not a replacement for an end mill. A burr is used to clean up edges after teh milling/drilling/cutting process. Using a burr is a finishing step after everything else is finished. After any cutting operation you are always left with some sort of unwanted edge. You can use a file, sandpaper, burr, Noga style blade deburring tools, grinding/snagging wheels, etc. mc_n_g ------- Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 04:03:37 -0500 From: Stan Stocker Subject: Re: Fly Cutter Sharpening You sharpen fly cutter bits pretty much as you would a left hand lathe tool (one sharpened for cutting towards the tailstock.) You may find that you need to: 1) Increase the tip radius a bit. Having the final surface cut provided by the tip, while the skin of the material is removed by a different area of the cutting edge gives better finish and a longer run between sharpenings. 2) play with the side clearance angle (the side of the tool that faces down to the work) 3) The angle you initially grind the side to (aim for around 5 degrees of clearance from the tip back along the side) 4) A biggie here - you may have to grind the heel of the tool back much more than you do for a lathe tool. If you think about it, a flycutter is basically a boring tool in terms of the cutting edge behavior. If the heel rubs on the step just cut by the tip of tool, you will get a hot tool, poor or no cutting, and/or a lousy finish. Grind the heel back rather than create a really steep clearance angle. A very steep angle will produce a weak tool, as the cutting edge isn't well supported. I grind the heel back at about a 45 degree angle for about 1/2 the tool bit thickness, then grind the surface that would be the front clearance angle on a lathe tool at a more normal 7 degrees or so. If you increase the rake on the tool, it tends to pull the cutter down into the work. Unless you have a very rigid setup you may find that you need to use tools with less rake than you would normally use or take lighter cuts to avoid this problem. Cheers, Stan ------- Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2004 05:37:02 -0000 From: "mikehenryil" Subject: Re: Tool sharpening. --- In Metal_Shapersx~xxyahoogroups.com, "Frank Hasieber" wrote: > Hi all, this is probably not for this group ( so far have not been > able to find a group or other on the subject) but I am looking for > help, I have a Jones & Shipman 310 tool and cutter grinder, but no > specific info on its use, no user manual, etc. just hoping that among > our members someone can point me in the right direction on the proper > use of this machine John Stevenson in the UK has been selling a CD-ROM with manuals for various T&C grinders. He's updated since I got one and added a couple of manuals but the two he had in the original CD were excellent quality. I think he gets around $10-20 for a CD and takes PayPal. Norton also used to sell or give away a nice booklet on tool room grinding. If they no longer supply it, they come up on eBay pretty regularly for $10 or so. Tony Griffith also sells a reprint of a Jones & Shipman manual for $52: http://www.lathes.co.uk/manuals/ Mike ------- Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2004 22:15:40 -0500 From: "Dick Farris" Subject: Re: Tool sharpening. Frank, take a shot at the guys on the " Quorn " group. The Quorn is a shop-made tool grinder made from protietary castings but the guys on the group do know about other grinders on use. Dick ------- Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2004 23:29:19 -0500 From: "Dave Audette" Subject: Re: Tool sharpening. You might find some info at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ToolGrinding/ Dave Audette Worcester, Mass www.broncosaurus.net ------- Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2004 10:48:58 -0500 From: "Jerry Glickstein" Subject: Re: Sharpening lathe tools Just sharpen the top rake(angle) to renew the cutting edge. This maintains the other cutting clearance angles originally ground into the toolbit. Regards, Jerry G (Glickstein) ------- Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2004 14:55:52 -0500 From: Paul Anderson Subject: Re: Sharpening lathe tools Jerry: However, it alters the centre height of the tool. Many smaller machines, such as the sherline, have a toolpost of a fixed height. If the cutting edge is low, it will have to be shimmed back up to centre height, which is a huge pain. The toolposts are designed so that the top of a 1/4" tool will be exactly at centre height. ------- Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2004 16:49:27 -0500 From: "Jerry Glickstein" Subject: Re: Sharpening lathe tools Paul: Au Contraire. I had fifty years of toolroom experience and it is a fact of life. Shims, that is. The whole world is held together with shims. :) I would rather do what I suggested than have to regenerate a new toolbit each time it became dull. The toolposts are a starting point. Go to Tips From Sherline Machinists (Google on over) # 32. My adapter for their compound slide is there. Guess what would be placed under the toolbit when resharpened? Or go to www.shipmodelersdesktop.com Click on Special Tools. Click on page 10. Complete description of the adapter. While you are there, Browse around. Enjoy! Regards, Jerry G (Glickstein) ------- Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2004 18:33:36 -0800 From: "Marcus and Eva" Subject: Re: Sharpening lathe tools Hi All: I just shorten the tool. That way I don't need to shim. When I run short of top relief, I can just regrind the top so I'm just kissing the left hand edge. I never grind this face or the left side face until I've used up most of the side and top relief by successive shortenings of the tool. I've got toolbits that I ground 10 years and more ago, and I still haven't used up all the relief, so I'm still happily shortening the ends whenever they get dull. I typically relieve a half inch or so when I grind a new toolbit the first time. I use good quality American or Swedish High Speed Steel. Look for Koncor, Latrobe, Fagersta and other quality steels. The 2 bucks you save when you buy some of that imported crap will be wasted the first time you try to cut anything even a little bit hard. Works for me!! Oh yeah: I never put back rake on a lathe tool...waste of effort and toolsteel in my opinion, except occasionally on a parting blade. Side rake alone is plenty. Cheers Marcus ------- Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2004 17:17:28 -0500 From: "Jerry Glickstein" Subject: Re: Sharpening lathe tools Paul, I almost forgot. Sherline makes a quick change tool post set which allows anyone to adjust the height of the tool tip in relation to the lathe centerline. Ergo, no shims! Yes, I have it in my Model Shop, on my short and long bed lathes. Regards, Jerry G (Glickstein) ------- Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 16:27:56 -0800 From: "Dave Goodfellow" Subject: RE: Sharpening lathe tools > > Here's a really basic 'newbie' question! How frequently should lathe > > tools be sharpened and what is the best way to do it? Hi Bob: This is sort of like trying to tell someone how to ride a bike. At least it is to me -- others may have rules. But here's my take: Instead of making a "sharpening schedule," react to a symptom. If you're getting chatter, back off on the speed or increase feed. If that doesn't help, sharpen the tool. Or vise-versa. Or, if you're not getting chatter but your cut is rough, sharpen the tool. If you're getting unwanted grooves, probably the tool has too much of a point; round its tip a little or feed more slowly. Others may have different solutions, but these work for me. Dave Goodfellow Lancaster, CA http://www.davegoodfellow.com/ ------- Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 19:19:19 -0500 From: RichD Subject: Re: Sharpening lathe tools Bob: Look at it this way. Start with a sharp tool. I mean really sharp. To be sharp you will have difficulty seeing the edge under good light. Also attempt to drag lightly the edge across the top of your finger nail. It will dig in with little effort. That is sharp. Now, machine some metal, brass, free machining steel, cast iron, etc. See and feel how this works with a SHARP tool. When you have learned this by *your* experience how this works, *you* will know when it is time to sharpen the edge. All the words in all the books will not teach you what it really is like to know when it is time. Work on it. Teach yourself. OK? RichD ------- Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2004 05:15:42 -0000 From: "Larry Goldberg" Subject: Re: Sharpening lathe tools Rich briefly mentioned an important point that's worth expanding upon. The intersection of the top surface and the left and front vertical surfaces is the edge in question. Being light machines taking light cuts, the cutting edge can come to a infinitely thin geometric line. Under a magnifier with good light you should NOT see a bright line along the cutting edge no matter how you tilt it in relation to the light. You can improve the cut by improving the quality of the cutting edge. A very smooth oilstone of the White Arkansas type will remove the larger ridges left by your grinding wheel. The same stone can be used to put the very small radius on the point of intersection of the top, front, and side. You can spend more money on a diamond hone if you like. A few minutes work with the little stone can put a mirror shine on the cuttings edges, approaching what the knife makers call scary sharp. Most importantly, follow the suggestion to try it. Larry ------- NOTE TO FILE: For some great sharpening hints, visit the OldTools site and search their archives for "scary sharp" and "sharp". ------- Date: Sat, 5 Jun 2004 19:37:49 +0100 From: "Leon Heller" Subject: Re: Removing built-up aluminum from endmill? > How does one (or can one?!?) go about removing the aluminum that > gets 'welded' onto the flutes of an endmill when you overfeed it in > soft aluminum? I've done this on my lathe before and have always > been able to get it off of the cutter, but the flutes of the 3/32" > endmill that I overfed aren't quite as easy to get scraped off... <:-) Caustic soda solution will dissolve the aluminium but won't affect the steel. Leon ------- Date: Sat, 5 Jun 2004 21:08:22 +0100 From: "Leon Heller" Subject: Re: Digest Number 1456 > 'caustic soda'=lye? lurch Yes, same stuff. Leon ------- Date: Sun, 06 Jun 2004 03:26:08 -0400 From: Ken Jenkins Subject: Re: Aluminum build up; it's a common problem >> Ok, I'm guessing this is beginner's mistake, oh, about #20 or so... :- Don't feel bad ... everybody fights it. It greatly depends on the kind of aluminum you are using. Of course I mainly use whatever comes to hand (i.e. CHEAP) so I've had the samw problem as you have. Usually (as you mentioned) you can take a sharp scribe, dig it into the build up at the top and push toward the bottom of the end mill and it'll often come free in a piece (repeat for each flute). I have even given the scribe a light rap with a hammer (not recommended! unless you insure the force goes straight down toward the end of the cutter, you can easily chip your end mill (hard = brittle) ... but I've gotten away with it a few times. Varying your speeds and feeds can help, if you go too fast it tends to worsen the problem. I find this especially to be true when drilling. > Better to use some sort of coolant on aluminium otherwise build up is > almost impossible to stop. The best solution (as was mentioned by another member) is some type of lubrication ... coolant, or even a few sprits of WD40 or Kerosene (oddly enough) works. > Caustic soda solution will dissolve the aluminium but won't affect the > steel. Caustic soda definitely works ... but it is kinda nasty stuff. We used to use it to clean nickel embossing shims. You don't want to get any on you ... even diluted it burns like the devil. I wore very thick elbow length rubber gloves when I used to work with it, but managed to lean on a puddle with an unprotected my arm once ... just once .. that was enough! You might try soaking the cutter in some acetone (like overnight) and then try to pry it out with a scribe after that. It's a common problem. ------- Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 09:00:46 -0700 From: "Marcus and Eva" Subject: Re: Tiny cutters Anyway, in answer to your questions, all the cutters I grind are form relieved, but I grind incremental steps on them rather than the continuous form relief you can get from CNC or cam operated grinders. So my protocol for the double cove cutter, for example, is that I dress the profile on the wheel (I'm particularly lucky in that I managed to score both a Diaform and an Optidress wheeldresser for ridiculously little money on EBay). I then split the blank to create the flutes, and spin grind the blank to get the profile. At this point there's no relief yet. I then drop the grinding wheel a bit (usually about 0.002" for a 1/4" diameter cutter) and mark the edge that will become the cutting edge with red felt pen. I rotate the blank 'til I'm well past top dead center with the edge I want to relieve, and then take a lick across the profile. I can see exactly how much I'll need to rotate the blank back toward TDC, to bring the relief right up to the cutting edge...so I sneak up on it with tiny rotational adjustments until the red just disappears from the edge. I then drop the wheel another 0.005" and relieve again, this time staying about 0.020" from the edge. This round of relieving goes all the way around the blank except for the edges. So the cutter ends up having a primary radial relief of about 7 degrees and a secondary radial relief of about 12 degrees. I adjust the depths of the relief cuts depending on the diameter of the cutter (big cutters need more to end up with similar relief angles). The threadmill is another interesting tool to visualize in operation. I think of it as a two toothed Skilsaw. Both cutting edges need to be aligned, so the only way to accommodate steep thread helices, is to tip the entire milling spindle relative to the lathe axis, much like a spiral milling setup is run on a horizontal universal mill. I had that provision on my 12 x 36 Chinese lathe, but I found I never needed it for typical thread pitches, so when I transferred the rig to the Sherline, I didn't bother to put it in, and I haven't missed it. The cutter itself is form relieved in the same way that I described above. You may have noticed that I almost always make multiflute cutters...this is because they're stronger, not because they cut all that much more efficiently than a D bit. For those of you who may be reading this thread and haven't heard of a D bit, it's a milling cutter that's made by splitting part of a cylindrical blank of toolsteel so only one half remains (D shaped in cross section) and then grinding a single cutting edge on it. D bits are very popular for engraving. Surprisingly, they're also much quicker to make, and the reason is that splitting a HSS or carbide blank to D bit specifications requires the removal of lots of material, and both materials are slow to grind. A two flute needs far less material removed to create the flutes, so it's both quicker and stronger. Relieving the second side is duck soup once the setup is there, and I had to make it for the first flute anyways!! A bonus is that they balance well, and at 34,000 RPM that's worth having. Hope this was of interest Cheers Marcus ------- Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2004 04:31:44 -0000 From: "art_fish2004" Subject: Sharpening Carbide Cutters I am doing clock repair and some of the pivots are too hard to cut with HSS cutters on my Sherline lathe. I've purchased some carbide cutters, but find they need sharpening or at least touched up before they will cut properly. BTW, I'm new to lathe work other than jewelers lathe, and just joined the group tonight. I'm sure this has been visited before, but search of archives did not give anything. Is there an inexpensive way to sharpen carbide bits...like a grinding wheel or sanding disk/belt of some type that will work. $300 for a diamond wheel is more than I can afford at this time. Thanks much Art Fish ------- Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2004 08:36:22 -0400 From: "Jerry G" Subject: Re: Sharpening Carbide Cutters Welcome Art! There are grinding wheels available. They will not give you the results that diamond wheels do, but they are useable on carbide toolbits. Silicon Carbide grit is the answer. Although the color is not a definitive, green or black is common. The selection of grinding wheels is a science in itself. Try Google. Put in Norton (a top name in grinding wheels) Or Bay State Go for 60-80 grit Hardness H or I or J Try a good industrial supplier. If not near you, go to MSC direct online and search. (I am not commercially connected. Just a satisfied customer.) Regards, Jerry G (Glickstein) ------- Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2004 14:00:29 -0000 From: "n2562001" Subject: Re: Sharpening Carbide Cutters Art, some pivots will need to be annealed before you will be able to cut them properly. Set the pivot on a piece of copper and heat both at the same time until the pivot is red hot and let them both cool. Other hard pivots can be cut without a problem using carbide. The better qaulity brazed carbide tools such as C5 or C6 Valenite, micro- 100 etc. will not require any sharpening or touch up. Use a standard AR for a slightly rounded corner and a threading tool for a sharp square corner. Jerry Kieffer ------- Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2004 16:00:57 -0000 From: "n2562001" Subject: Re: Sharpening Carbide Cutters >> Jerry, What is Art to do when the carbide chips? You know that is common and very likely with a novice user. Especially with a threading tool whose included angle is usually 60 degrees. Regards, Jerry G (Glickstein) P.S. I have used all the grades (types) you mention and they do not last forever.... :) << Jerry, I completely agree with your response for sharpening carbide. I should have mentioned that they would not require sharpening or touch up for initial use. Thanks for pointing out my mistake. However sharpening carbide in a way that minimizes chipping and cuts properly is an art in itself. At least it was an uphill battle for me when I started. I resolved the problem by purchasing the proper grinding equipment and spending the time learning to use it. It cost more than Art wants to spend. Of course you and I can walk over to any old grinder today and grind a tool free hand as well as find a way to make it work as we want. When I started I was unable to grind a tool freehand that would perform as well as a good quality carbide tool from the factory. When cutting clock pivots you only have one shot at it and in most cases and you will need to have a good finish to retain as much metal as possible. You are also in some cases working with very old valuable pinion arbors that will affect the value of the clock if damaged. Personally when I started I would have been better off working with proper quality tools and replacing them when damaged for this type of work. Of course for non-valuable replaceable items you re-sharpen everything in sight any way you can with whatever you have. Jerry Kieffer ------- Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2004 09:14:43 -0700 From: "Marcus and Eva" Subject: Re: Sharpening Carbide Cutters Hi Jerry and others: I have to disagree with the notion that you can get even reasonable performance, finish grinding carbide cutting tools with a silicon carbide wheel. I know you can snag off some material with a "green wheel", but you'll never produce anything better than the coarsest geometry, and you likely won't be cutting long at all with such a rough tool in hardened steel. Fortunately, there are better alternatives available from the worlds of dentistry and dental laboratory technology. You can buy diamond wheels and points in a wide range of coarseness and fineness for prices in the $15 to $20.00 range. These are small diameter tools suitable for a Foredom or Dremel, and are very nice for fine finishing. They are not suitable for hogging, but in combination with the dreaded green wheel, you can do a lot with them, and make very acceptable cutting tools. Go to your family dentist with a box of doughnuts, and you probably can score a whole pile of used points. They typically get dull on the very tips when used for crown and bridge preparation, and the dentist tosses them when they're no longer suitable for dentistry. I've still got hundreds left over from my clinical years, and I've ground a lot of carbide with them. As the Brits say "they work a treat". Dental labs use larger points and wheels for shaping and finishing porcelain...a common supplier of these is a company called Brasseler..look them up on the web. The ideal solution of course, is to have a full set of industrial diamond wheels in varying grades, but as you point out, it's pretty expensive to get such a set or even one (although I've bought plenty for less than $150.00 CDN). In their defence though, they do last a long time...I've got wheels that have seen almost daily use and are 20 + years old. The dentist's points by contrast will live for a few cutters at most... that's why it's so worthwhile to be on good terms with your local dentist!! If you play your cards right...(occasional invitations to lunch for the staff is a good way) you can probably persuade him and his asssistants to run his worn out burs through the sterilizer and drop them in a box for you so you have a steady supply. It's no hardship for them, and a great source of useful stuff for you. Get the carbide burs too..they're really nice to have too...and if you can persuade him to rummage through his office drawers, you might be able to score an old high speed handpiece too. If you do, grab it without delay...this is worth several lunches at least!! Cheers Marcus ------- Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2004 12:34:03 -0400 From: "Jerry G" Subject: Re: Sharpening Carbide Cutters Marcus, I agree with your disagreement! It was never my intention to intimate "finish" grinding with the "green wheel" or the "black one", for that matter. Art needed a less expensive way to grind carbide toolbits. As we know, Diamond is the way to go. Your suggestion and solution is excellent. I haven't used the doughnuts or lunch bit, but I do have a nice collection of dental picks, carbide drills he has given me over the years.....However, I did do some simple repair work on his equipment! I was spoiled, having worked in a toolroom with a battery of diamond double sided carbide grinding machines. A copious supply of coolant and the best of adjustable tool rests to set any angle and just go from one side of the machine (coarse wheel) to the other side (fine wheel). And, for really fine finishing a hand lap to get those mirror finishes and mini radii that are a requisite to prevent premature failure of the cutting edge(s). Regards, Jerry G (Glickstein) ------- Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2004 05:31:39 -0700 From: Mark Subject: More on diamond wheels etc. I've bought a nice selection of things on ebay, where wheels of several types go for 20-30.00 (haven't looked for a year or so). Also, one maker of disk laps for gem faceting, Daniel Lopaki (check my spelling) sells for excellent prices. As Marcus points out, carbide toolbits need finish grinding. The Chinese packs of 1-inch diamond disks area fine for roughing but too coarse to make a good finish. But I like them a LOT better than the small wheel / diamond paste that comes in the Waller brand carbide graver kits, for the watchmaker's lathe, at least for roughing chipped gravers. Another place to look MIGHT be a gem shop - laps that are too worn for gem faceting could be the ticket for toolbit finishing.... mark ------- Date: Mon, 20 Dec 2004 02:20:21 -0000 From: "c.j. Dominey" Subject: Re: Digest Number 114 [BeginnersWorkshop group] Hi fellows, I am currently a machinist, and have used both non-rotating and rotating centers in the tailstock. The non-rotating centers used a center drilled 60 degree hole just like the live centers did. I expect the reason for using them was that the "dead center" was more economical, and gave much more tool clearance than the live centers did. It is a practice I have not used or seen in many years. We used to use something called "white lead" to grease the dead center ...although what that was I do not know. I was helping in the machine shop when I was 8 years old. Later we used melidium grease to grease the dead center. I never did get the concentricity I wanted with a dead center and much prefer the ball bearing kind. The center that went in the chuck side used a lathe dog to turn the workpiece. I have only done that a couple of times, typically to grind a shaft to close tolerance. If you need to machine a hardened piece...like a heat treated live center, another option other than grinding is hard turning. They make really neat inserts today that will turn very hard material in the lathe. If anyone has any interest in these I will get you details. I have used them, and they do work! Jim ------- Date: Tue, 21 Dec 2004 17:56:15 -0800 (PST) From: Carol Dominey Subject: RE: Re: Digest Number 114 What you need to do hard turning is a lathe with excellent rigidity, and good tight spindle bearings. You also need a pretty high rpm rate...think in the 600 fps area...but most engine lathes won't get there so probably as high an rpm as you can turn. Depth of cut is usually low...perhaps .003 to .005. You will have to experiment to get the best results. Cubic Boron Nitride inserts are about four or five times the cost of a regular carbide insert. But they do offer the cabability to machine VERY hard steel. Up to around 62 Rockwell on the C scale as an example. I successfully machined a hardened tap on a Hardinge chucker lathe, and it amazed me. I had no idea you could do that. A pretty good source for hard turning inserts...and in my opinion all inserts is Iscar. They are more expensive than many other insert companies ...but you get much longer tool life with Iscar than you do with some others. All insert tool companies today make CBN inserts, and other inserts for very hard material as well. Give it a try, you might surprise yourself. Just remember....no coolant ...CBN inserts hate temperature shock, vibration and also SOFT material. Good luck, Sir Jim ------- Date: Tue, 21 Dec 2004 20:08:07 -0800 From: "keith green" Subject: Re: Re: Digest Number 114 At work we hard-turn case-hardened materials and induction-hardened stuff (each between 55 and 62 Rc) with ceramic inserts. They're a lot cheaper than the CBN inserts (haven't used those yet) and seem to give a good result in the 360 FPM range (average). Less than .01 depth of cut, no coolant. You need a rigid machine, no doubt about it. I think the inserts run about $36 Can. for the whisker-reinforced ones (Sandvik) and quite a bit less for the non-reinforced ones. Reinforced kind can take an interrupted cut to some degree without chipping. The inserts themselves are very plain with no chipbreaker. They may have a small 45 deg. bevel on the cutting edge; say about .005 to .010. We use them in holders with 5 to 10 deg. negative rake. Keith ------- Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 11:16:03 -0800 From: "Robert A. Washburn" Subject: Re: Quorn tool grinder [Prints_and_Plans group] When I acquired the book from Prof. Chaddock [The Quorn, Universal Tool & Cutter Grinder] I asked him if I needed the drawings also to build the Quorn. He said, the book can accomplish this. In reviewing it, it can! But, with the low cost of cutters these days, I never became interested in building the Quorn. You can get, from MSC, 20 end mills (2 and 4 flute) for US$49.95 in a nice wooden, hinged lid box. I bought six sets of them. You can't even get a cutter sharpened for US$2.50 each. I find these cutters to be comparable to all others I have used. I did find one (in using the contents of two boxes of them) which had been finished all except, it somehow missed being heat-treated. I threw it away. Frances and I visited (the lates) Lou & Pat Blackmore in Australia back in 1995. In his shop he showed me his Quorn. He said, "The bloody thing is too complicated to use. I don't use it." That was another determent to my taking up the task. Robert Washburn ------- Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 15:23:21 +0000 From: Clive Foster Subject: Re: Digest Number 327 * Subject should be: Re: Quorn tool grinder [Prints_and_Plans group] With respect "The bloody thing is too complicated to use." describes any general purpose Tool & Cutter Grinder with comprehensive capabilities especially if you don't take the time to learn how to use it and to make setting/alignment jigs appropriate to the purposes to which you intend to put it. Although the Quorn basically follows the Deckel/Alexander concept it includes both grinding head tilt and rise/fall movements extending its capabilities at the cost of extra complication and degrees of freedom. The basic Deckel/Alexander concept is intended for engraving cutters although it is exceedingly effective for simple tool bits & end tooth refurbishment. It's not so good for end-mill side teeth, tap fluting, reamers and similar jobs where the rise & fall or pivoting head machines e.g. Clarkson are better. Like all sophisticated machines the Quorn is capable of refurbishing seriously damaged cutters and even producing them from scratch when provided with a suitable blank. Its unfortunate that Prof Chaddock did not describe a comprehensive range of setting aids but a full set would probably have doubled the size of the book. A short scrutiny of the instruction manual of any good commercial comprehensive T&C Grinder will reveal a significant range of factory made tool holders and setting aids along with brief details of things which the user ought to make for themselves. Reference to a good textbook on tool grinding and the use of T&C Grinders will reveal a bewildering range of useful(?) devices. The use of T&C Grinders for anything beyond the most routine tasks is a highly skilled art. Good though the Quorn is it is, in some ways, unfortunate that its reputation has spread immoderately because it really is for advanced workers only. Making a nice job of building one is evidence of a respectable level of skill. Needing to exploit its full capabilities proves you really are advanced! For most of us being able to touch up the end teeth on milling cutters, sharpen drills (preferably both conical and four facet points ) and repeatably replicate the cutting angles on lathe tools will suffice. For these purposes simple single or double angle solid block and collet holders presented in a controllable fashion to a decent grinding wheel will do an adequate job. Adding a floating spindle to do end-mill side flutes probably sets the limits of "I'll do it one day" aspirations. It really is a pity that there are no designs for a comprehensive cutter block & collet holder system to be used with a small high speed grinder. Most published designs are single purpose ad-hoc devices and there are still numerous advocates of the abominable multi adjustable tool rest and cardboard angle setting gauges. For about the last 15 years I've been threatening to sort out a simple system based on a sliding head carrying a multiple hinged tool carrier holder using V gaps and inserted pins to sort the angles. The BoE sketches were done ages ago but... Clive ------- Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 19:17:58 +0000 (GMT) From: Paul Midgley Subject: Tool grinders [Prints_and_Plans group] Having read the thoughts of people in the group and looked through the book, I am inclined to agree that it is a bit to complicated to use and a more simpler tool grinder would be better, hence the change in subject title. If anyone has any suggestions it would be appreciated, preferably freely available designs. I know milling cutters are quite cheap to buy these days, but if it goes blunt ant it is the only one you have of that size, then it is frustrating to have to wait until you can get a new one. It is also a waste when all the tool would need is a quick touch up on the grinder. Those of us who reside in the UK tend to be a bit more thrifty and do not like to throw anything away. Regards Paul ------- Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 23:13:43 +0200 From: "Frank Hasieber" Subject: RE: Tool grinders Hi Paul, no matter where you live we all have to be thrifty, resharpening your own cutters as a hobbyist is a proposition, unless your time is too valuable, there are a couple of other popular grinders available in kit form in the UK and possibly the drawings/plans are available, the Kennet is one, but brain fade keeps the others at bay, I will check through my Model Engineer mags and see what I can come up with, just may take a bit of time. Frank Durban, South Africa. PS: I have frequently in the past touched up an end mill/slot drill freehand on the grinder with perfectly acceptable results, if you end up with one cutting lip slightly longer than the others, you have in effect a single point flycutter, I have sometimes got a better finish than I got with the new cutter! ------- Date: Tue, 01 Feb 2005 21:59:52 -0900 From: "Ward M." Subject: RE: Re: Tool grinders > There is the Public Domain "Bonelle" (previously "Millenium") > tool grinder on one of the Yahoo metalworking groups. Greg Try http://groups.yahoo.com/group/quorn_owners/ for the Bonelle plans. Ward M. ------- Date: Wed, 09 Feb 2005 08:37:32 -0000 From: "Bernard R" Subject: Re: Quorn tool grinder [Prints_and_Plans group] I'm new to the group, however as I'm in the process of building a Quorn I can give you some first hand comments. In regard to the question of whether it is worth while building, a lot depends on which side of the pond you live and what equipment you have. While the general run of imported end mills are cheap in the US, screwed end mills as fit in a Clarkson chuck are not. A good source of Brit workshop books and magazines is available in the US from WiseOwlMagazines.com. The quality of the printing is not sufficient to build a Quorn and there are some errors. The UK agent for the Quorn is Model Engineering Services and they sell sets of plans for both the Mk1 & Mk2, as well as castings and wheels. In the US Gary Martin sells reasonable quality castings, but no plans or grinding wheels. Expanding on the Quorn is the Bonnelle, plans and notes are in the Yahoo Quorn_Users Group, this uses no castings, instead using continuosly cast 50mm iron bar. Don Willis who designed it has posted 3 files in the group, but there is litle in the way of construcional write up and you need to be pretty experienced to build it. Guy Lautard, Lautard.com, sells plans for the Tinker grinding jig which uses your existing bench grinder, he also sells the two castings, the remainder is common stock. Bernard R ------- Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2005 23:29:33 +0000 From: Clive Foster Subject: Re: Quorn tool grinder Further to Bernard's most apposite comments it occurs to me that one of the major sources of difficulty associated with designs for self build T & C grinders is the multi-adjustable tool holder with its associated collets and graduated setting circles. Although obviously essential for full spectrum use the slavish copying of these features of commercial machines is not essential for the kind of use most HSM types will undertake. If you only wish to sharpen drills, lathe tools and the end teeth of end- mills something far simpler offering a few pre-set angles will be more than adequate. If you have height adjustment on the wheel head simple V-block mounting of end-mills is adequate providing you pay appropriate attention to tooth indexing. The basic tool-holding principles required are essentially the same as used in numerous published designs for simple tool-holding jigs for use with bench grinders. The Achilles heel of such devices has always been the difficulty of arranging a well controlled feed and presentation to the grinding wheel when using a conventional grinder. Using with a T&C grinder answers this problem. When I build mine I shall use square section blocks, drilled to match the shank diameters, to hold my end-mills. I shall set the angles using either interchangeable ramped platforms or hinged platforms with a range of different sized rods sliding between V grooves or into location holes to set the angles. Simple V blocks will do for the drills and L blocks, with clamps for the tool bits. The bit I have yet to figure out is how to put a controlled, repeatable small radius on the end of lathe tools. Clive ------- Date: Wed, 09 Feb 2005 18:20:02 -0800 From: Sacramento Charlie Subject: Re: Re: Quorn tool grinder Clive, I made the Tinker from Canada but modified it to use R8's. Now I can do drill bits, end-mills or anything that needs a multiple angle. It works just fine. On the other side of the grinder I have a Darex and in a plastic case I have a Drill Doctor. So I'll never ever buy another drill bit. Sacramento Charlie (the other Foster) ------- Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 04:16:53 -0000 From: "Bernard R" Subject: Re: Quorn tool grinder As an interim step to building the Quorn I made the Tinker. It's an inter- esting little jig and in its published form uses 2MT taper for the various tool holders, the circular holders are plain drilled and reamed. There is also a little rotary table, using the same 2MT format, there is also an accessory for radius grinding. While the drawings do call for graduated dials, which I did using my CNC rotary table, in the majority of cases there are only a few critical common angles we need be concerned with and it is easy enough to centre pop those, in fact, as the design uses as upright standard and the work head swivels on that the angles can be set with a protractor. For my own part the rotary table gets the most use for doing lathe tools, very handy for accuratly making threading bits. The short threaded 'micromoter' screw and the relatively long work arm means inevitably there is in the jig, which in my opinion excludes it for serious T&C grinding, but it is a very definite improvement over freehand and a reasonable alternative to machines such as the Worden. Bernard R ------- Date: Sat, 05 Feb 2005 20:42:31 -0000 From: "hotchicken12000" Subject: Has anyone bought and machined the soft jaws>>>> [sherline group] Hi everyone: I am a Sherline 4100 owner and a goldsmith, I often need to hold a piece in the lathe after it has been parted off. Picture a wedding band that needs to be held from the inside. I have stuggled with different ways of doing this because Sherline doesn't offer an internally expanding collet. A friend suggested that I buy some machinable jaws for the lathe and then shape them to match the diameters that I need. Does anyone have any experience in doing this? Any information would be appreciated. Thanks again. Cary James St.John's, Newfoundland ------- Date: Sat, 05 Feb 2005 17:58:04 -0800 From: Alan Marconett Subject: Re: Has anyone bought and machined the soft jaws>>>> Hi Cary, I haven't used the machineable jaws. How about an expandable mandrel? Made like an expandable lap. Turn a length of stock, say 2" long out of aluminum, to just under the diameter you need to hold a ring. Slot the stock 2/3 or so the way through long ways. Drill and tap for one or two small setscrews, say 4-40 or 5-40 on one side of the slot. you should now be able to slip the stock over the mandrel, tighten up the setscrew(s) up enough to hold. Alan KM6VV ------- Date: Sun, 06 Feb 2005 21:46:15 -0000 From: "Marv Frankel" Subject: Re: Has anyone bought and machined the soft jaws>>>> Guys, a mandrel is the right idea, and there are several choices. You can make a long slim mandrel, tapered about .010" from end to end, with the diameter in the middle about the same as the ring I.D., and supported by a tailstock center on one end. Press the ring blank on until it feels tight enough, and when you finish, press the ring off. Choice #2 is the better one. Make a long slim mandrel with a taper of less than 3/4" to the foot (self-holding taper). Bore a sleeve with the same taper, and the outside machined straight to an O.D. slightly less than the ring I/D. Slot the sleeve for most of the way in one direction, rotate 90 degrees and slot it most of the way in the opposite direction. I've used both of these methods, and they work, but if you use method #2, you can make several different O.D. sleeves to accomodate varying ring sizes. Marv Frankel Los Angeles ------- Date: Mon, 07 Feb 2005 15:13:21 -0700 From: Mark Zirinsky Subject: Re: Has anyone bought and machined the soft jaws>>>> A better way of holding a ring, is using a "cone mandrel" which is easily made, brass and /or plastic is best (especially for scrap recovery). A good photo of one in use is in this month's Lapidary Journal (or maybe AJM), but they are easily made. Also, a cone mandrel (2 opposing cones) is more accurate on a lathe than an expansion mandrel. (I use an expansion mandrel for holding rings, usually for polishing or flush setting.) Mark Zirinsky, Denver ------- Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2005 06:59:46 -0500 From: "Jerry G" Subject: Re: Has anyone bought and machined the soft jaws>>>> Cary, Suggestion, Put a piece of stock in the three jaw chuck. Can be wood, aluminum, brass, etc. Turn a very shallow taper with the compound slide (less than one degree) that is a few thousandth's under and a few thousandth's over the ID of your ring... Have the large end closer to the chuck and the small end towards the tailstock. Slip your ring over the tapered mandrel you have just made, and friction will hold it. Just make sure you push it firmly towards the headstock. If it is not running true, make a push on tool that will fit in the tailstock to transfer the alignment to the ring on the mandrel. The push on tool will have a shank that fits in the drill chuck in the tailstock, and a bore to clear your mandrel and a face that has been squared up to the shank... Since you do it often, it pays to make this. Also, consider the mandrel sacrificial... cut in to it if you have to. Please let me know how you make out. Regards, Jerry G (Glickstein) ------- Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2005 14:54:08 -0500 From: "Statman Designs, LLC" Subject: Re: Re: Has anyone bought and machined the soft jaws>>>> Absolutely, they will work beautifully. As a matter of fact they work EVERY single day. I am always amazed out how difficult and complex a solution most people seem to come up with. The soft jaws can EASILY be machined to hold rings from the inside or outside, and once machined, they can hold ANY ring size. Personally, I just use the 3-jaw chucks. Takes about 10 seconds to mount any size ring. Is it always dead-nuts perfectly true, nope. Does it matter in the least, nope. BTW, I machine lots and lots of gold rings as well as titanium. Daniel J. Statman, Statman Designs www.statmandesigns.com dan.statmanx~xxrennlist.net ------- Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 20:03:20 -0500 From: "Ken Gastineau" Subject: Re: engraving letters on silver [sherline group] > I have sherline cnc ,standard motor pulley setup. > To engrave I have a springloaded diamond mounted point down. > This works ok but the results are not as sharp as I would like. > I have used this on all metals, but my primary use would be silver. > What is the best setup for engraving Silver ? bits,speed etc. I'm not sure who I am addressing as there is no signature in this thread. Typically for engraving metals like Sterling Silver which engrave rather well by the way, you would use a single lip cutter which is ground to suit the metal and the application you are working with. I use points as small as .005" and up. It all depends on what you are doing. There are companies that sell single lip cutter points or you can make your own using a "single lip cutter grinder ($$)". I make my own and am glad that I set up to do that as small points break easily. As far as speed etc. it all depends on the size of the point. For small points I would imagine that 10,000 rpm would be the minimum. Speed would have to be slow depending on depth of cut. Ken Gastineau Gastineau Studio Berea, Kentucky ------- Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 18:22:26 -0500 From: Subject: Re: engraving letters on silver Ken. I have a faceting machine. I "spin " the shaft to get the 30' angle point. Then cut the flat on the tool by hand at the edge of the diamond lap. At this point I am not getting something right, and probably should break down and order some, at least to get a closer look...the only reference I have to what the tip should look like is off the internet. http://www.2linc.com/engraving_tools.htm for example. David ------- Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 21:25:31 -0500 From: "Ken Gastineau" Subject: Re: engraving letters on silver David: I am certainly no expert in cutter geometry. I use a small Preis single lip cutter grinder that is made just for sharpening such points. As I understand it there are two cutting edges on a typical conical engraving point, the edge and the point. The relief behind the cutting edges is what I believe makes the cutting edges work properly. When you grind a point into a perfect conical form, you eliminate the relief behind the cutting edge of the cone profile. The point is yet another set of angles with relief necessary also. Look at this page from Antares http://www.antaresinc.net/FactSheets/Anatomy.html Pay particular attention to the illustration about clearance angles and the graphic of the clearance angle profile. Single lip cutter grinders have specialty indexing features to allow grinding the necessary clearance angles. I have never used a faceting machine so I don't know how or if it is possible to accurately grind the relief angles necessary. I am sure that it would be possible but may require a method to limit the rotation of the cutter point when grinding the initial conical shape as this is how it is done on single lip cutter grinders. Ken Gastineau Gastineau Studio Berea, Kentucky ------- Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 16:04:38 -0500 From: "Roger Malinowski" Subject: Re: Re: On-line retail source for small diameter cutting tools? [taigtools group] Here are some good sources for small cutters. My range is generally in the .010 - .015 range. Northbay cutting tools http://www.northbaytechnical.com/ American Carbide http://www.american-carbide.com/MicroEndMills/MicroEndMills.aspx Harvey Tool http://www.harveytool.com/carbide_long_reach_miniature_end_mills.htm Discount tools http://www.discount-tools.com/endmills1.htm Drillbit City http://www.drillbitcity.com/ Precise Cut http://www.precisecut.com/default.htm I think in some cases you will find most of these places a bit more economical than Cutting edge tech and most have a better variety of "miniature cutters". Don't overlook the information that is on some of these sites, especially Precise Cut. Roger ------- Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2005 11:47:37 -0000 From: "dan pines" Subject: ER16 (or larger) spindle hi all having followed the recent threads i would like to contribute the following: looking thru the catalog of caporali (italy) - no business connection, i just use some of their collet closers and collets - i found out that there is an ER16 straight shank closer with a reduced shank of 8 mm. this would go through the sherline/taig spindles and could be held in any chuck, endmill holder etc. - material/tool size feed through is of course limited. moreover, if one would fit such a closer as a ram in the tailstock it would do away with the need for a jacobs drill chuck on the tailstock as well. other available ER16 straight shanks are 10mm, 12mm, 14mm, 16mm, 20mm, 22mm, 25mm, 32mm, 1/2", 5/8", 3/4", 1" shank lengths start from 30mm through 160mm, 2.36" thru 3.93". not all lengths available with all shank diameters. similar selection with the larger ER sizes. i do not know the ID of the taig headstock bearings but i would not be surprised if one of the avaiable sizes would fit. they sell here (israel) for about 50$ and could make suitable spindles. see www.cnctools.it for more details. i assume they should be available in the usa and from other manufacturers as well. i have been using them on a sherline for about a year (ER20, ER32) with an adapter made from a taig blank arbor. nick carter recently published a couple of photos on his site. jim knighton just published that he went one step further than i did i.e. shortened the shank much more than i did and came up with an enviable midget adapter. to sum up, many alternative options are there for you to choose from. regards dan pines ------- Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 18:06:33 -0700 From: William Abernathy Subject: Re: indexable toolholders and bits [atlas_craftsman] Steve wrote: > Here's one I'm sure will result in some differences of opinion, but > that's what I'd like to see is what does everyone think. > There are soooo many different shapes and sizes of carbide bits. > There are more than 100 styles in the MSC catalog. What are > people using and why? What are the pros/cons of different types. > Is there a good all-around one (e.g. the one to get if you can > only get one), or are there a few you think you can't do without? There are a whole lot of styles because there are a whole lot of jobs out there. Of the literally thousands of indexable inserts, you won't have a conceivable need for more than a handful. The only kind I use are the 1/4" "TT" inserts (there's a proper 4-letter code for them, but I'm not looking it up) available from Enco and others. You could conceivably want an inside thread cutter as well, though carbide insert-based tools are spendy for this job. I bought mine because they were available for less than $20 for the set, with inserts, and I wanted to see what good they are. For home use, I have to say there's nothing I've yet seen to indicate that indexable carbide is really a necessity. If you can grind your own tools, you're pretty much covered for the speeds and feeds you'll see on an Atlas. Even with coolant Carbide is great stuff for industrial processes in which you're making lots of widgets fast. You spin the work or the tool up to ridiculous speeds and go to it with carbide because at high enough speeds you can overheat HSS tools even with coolant. Carbide works just fine at these crazy fast speeds. Another advantage is that for specialized cutters, you don't have as much down-time or skilled labor or tooling involved in resharpening the cutter. Rather than hiring a skilled machinist to regrind the tool on the Darex, you hire a monkey boy to unscrew the spent insert (or inserts) and rotate or reverse it or pop on a new one. On an assembly line, this can add up to big money. Not so in your garage. For the sort of work you'll be doing on an Atlas, these considerations aren't that important. These are not production lathes, and people don't use them if they're in a hurry to crank out a lot of widgets. One advantage to indexable and brazed carbide bits is that they are of fixed height and a fixed pitch and profile. I can swap my left-hand cutter with a left-facing cutter, then thread the part with the center-point cutter without adjusting the height. For most lathe work I do, I stick with the HSS bits. Learning to grind your own tools is not hard and carries a certain satisfaction that inserting carbide tiddly-winks lacks. Also, HSS, while not as hard as carbide, is a lot tougher, hence more forgiving: if you hand-turn your work back a quarter-turn with a carbide bit still against it, the tip will chip off, and you've just wasted one point of your insert. It seems every time I dust off the insert tools I manage to chip off another corner. > Are there any that we should not be using (e.g. inappropriate to > use on the Atlas lathe because they are intended for forces higher > than the Atlas can handle)? Many of the inserts are too huge to be useful on an Atlas. Many have odd shapes that should be next to useless for any job you want to do. If the insert fits a holder that fits, and if the thing curls a chip, then it's appropriate for use on your lathe. Some form-type inserts, like circular ones, may start out okay then get chattery. My 10" didn't do well cutting a 1/2" round pulley groove. YMMV. > Also, what are the pros/cons of these vs just plain old high-speed > steel or tooling with carbide bits brazed on the ends (just picked up > a fistful of them for $10 at a garage sale). Steve You got your money's worth. William A. ------- Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 02:45:27 -0000 From: "azbruno" Subject: Re: indexable toolholders and bits Hard to add to William A's response, but I can also suggest looking at J&L Industrials' catalog (it's online). They have quite decent descriptions and specifications for the various indexible tools. -Bruno ------- Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 22:55:11 -0500 From: "jerdal" Subject: Re: indexable toolholders and bits Well, here is the different opinion...... For most stuff, use HSS. Go to estate and garage sales and buy ANY ground cutters you see, if reasonably priced. I probably have 300 different ones, almost all bought pre-ground. There is nearly always one to use. Buy brazed carbide cutters too, but for them, try to get unused ones, not ones ground to a nubbin. For inserts, get the 5 piece holder set "TT" stuff. Now, there are folks who say "don't use carbide, the lathe can't supply the power to use it right". They OBVIOUSLY never have had to turn a chunk of 4140 pre-hardened down. Here is a link to a pic of work I did a while back, its a mill arbor for a Lewis mill. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/0803/jstanley/arb15la1.jpg The piece is 4140 prehard. Using HSS was just not profitable, I was grinding all the time, it wore down so fast. I had to get a long section of 1.5" diameter down to 1.25", one end to an MT3 taper, and the other down to a 0.500 journal. Lots of material removal, most in one setup. You can see bright blue chips on the toolpost top, it was being excercised well.. Carbide worked great. Only a bit of honing of the edge. You can see a brazed carbide cutter in place. Eventually, I went to my "TT" type indexable. Problem was that its a flat belt lathe, and stalled in the cut from time to time if I overdid the feed. That usually chipped the inserts, but didn't bother the brazed cutter. I used the TT for finishing, as a result. So, the "TT" type 5 piece set of holders with inserts gets my vote. I have teh 3/8 IC inserts. Get lots of brazed cutters also, whenver you can. Old ones, not new chinee junk. But mostly, use HSS unless you need carbide because you cannot afford to re-set the tool (use inserts), have nasty material (use inserts or brazed), etc. Stay away from negative rake carbide, in general. It takes much more power and lots of force ramming it into the work. Not good for Atlas (or in my case, Logan) lathes. JT ------- Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 20:20:54 -0400 From: Nick Hull Subject: Re: indexable toolholders and bits >There are soooo many different shapes and sizes of carbide bits. There >are more than 100 styles in the MSC catalog. What are people using >and why? I use TNMG in my own toolholder with a 7 deg nose droop to give it an automatic 7 deg relief angle. The bit then has 6 usable points. I'm no expert but it works in my 6" lathe. ------- Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 17:50:58 -0400 From: Charles Gallo Subject: Re: indexable toolholders and bits OK - I've avoided jumping in till now. I have a whole web page on Carbide for the Home Shop: http://www.thegallos.com/carbide.htm Been a LONG time since I updated it, but what is there is still true. ------- Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2005 14:50:55 -0500 From: Jon Elson Subject: Re: indexable toolholders and bits Charles Gallo wrote: >http://www.thegallos.com/carbide.htm >been a LONG time since I updated it, but what is there is still true I generally agree with what you have there, but I have used the uncoated C-2 and some C-5 inserts with excellent results on a 10" and later a 12" Atlas lathe. I just got a good deal on about 50 coated inserts, so I'm set for the next decade, at least! But, I would have bought them without coating, I really don't see the coating as having any benefit on the lighter lathes. The coatings mostly reduce wear on the carbide, and may reduce sticking of the chip to the insert, to some extent. I've only worn out about 2 inserts in the over 15 years I've been using them! Mostly, I have bind-ups or chatter that chips the cutting edges. Coatings won't help avoid that. Jon ------- Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 15:35:09 -0400 From: bdmail Subject: Re: indexable toolholders and bits I have a 618 and have great luck with the Insert tools. And that isn't even the good stuff....I have the TT style Chinese ones. With the TT style, you aren't supposed to try to take off a thousandth like you can with HSS. The top surface is shaped to cut better at .006 or greater depth of cut. One thing I noticed is that with the Chinese ones, you have to take off the insert and make sure there aren't any loose particles underneath the insert, and to check that the insert seats right. Otherwise the geometry - and possibly the rigidity - is compromised Bernie ------- Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 16:51:34 -0000 From: "paul_probus" Subject: Re: indexable toolholders and bits Here is another site. http://www.metalwebnews.com/howto/toolholder/toolholder.html Both Charles' and Ted's are good resources for anyone looking into getting indexable tooling for the home shop. While its a bit pricey, I can recommend the Diamond toolholder for interrupted cuts on unhardened pieces. Interrupted cuts will kill carbide, at least the cheap TT inserts die quite easily from it (I know from experience). IMHO, the DT is about the closest thing to indexable tooling using commonly available HSS lathe bits (one company does sell indexable HSS cutters that fit into their indexible toolholders, they look just like the carbide cutters only made from HSS, the advantage is that you can swap out the HSS for the carbide without changing the toolholder, but you can't resharpen them and get the same repeatability, so you don't gain anything over the DT, IMHO). Someone on the 7x10minilathe group built their own, so you could consider building your own. Standard disclaimer applies: I don't have any financial interest, whatsoever, in the sales of the DT (or in the importer, Bay-Com), I am simply a happy owner of one. Paul ------- NOTE TO FILE: The Diamond style toolholder in its commercial and homemade versions was discussed in the file "Toolholders Taig or Sherline" -- open that file and search for Diamond. The next posting concerns some of the causes of chatter during turning. While we here are mainly interested in metal lathes, chatter is a harmonic problem that can affect traditional wood turning also. This original forum is about the Atlas 6" lathes, but the comments apply just as well to any small lathes like Taig or Sherline, or much bigger ones. ------- Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 22:15:33 -0700 From: "Steve B" Subject: Re: Re: Weird pattern on my work! [atlas618lathe] Tool pressure is a huge cause of chatter in the little lathes . On a large lathe, reducing the tool radius helps. Or going with a faster feedrate, or both. Changing speeds up and down while cutting is a good way to break up the harmonics etc... I truly believe that the 618 really is best served with HSS tooling. In that the speeds and feeds available with the machine are very well suited to the materials that were in use when the machine was designed. It is very easy to create a great cutting tool with HSS and to be able to modify it to the needs at hand using only a bench grinder. The effort made in learning this skill will yield great finishes and probably save you heartache. I don't add anything special to my HSS bits....I use them in a tool block and not the lantern type post. Most likely because I was trained to use tool blocks and not lantern posts....if I need shear angle stuff, I grind it into the tool. Carbide requires tool pressure. There is no way around that. Even the smallest radius tools are ill suited to the 618 compared to what you should be able to hand grind into a HSS blank in a few minutes. There seems to be a trend toward carbide in these forums and it appears to me that is because of the ease in which inserts are changed vs. learning to sharpen HSS. I received some great advice from an old planer operator about the 618 lathe and that was use nothing but HSS. That probably doesn't mean alot to the readers/contributors here, but it is gospel to me. I use the 618 for hobby/fun stuff. I use it to relax and to enjoy. I like the smell of cutting oil. Remove time from equation and cut steel the old timey way. you got an old timey lathe. Use it. You'll be rewarded with great finishes and highly accurate work. There can be no greater accomplishment for a machinist. Steve Bergeron ------- Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2005 10:52:38 -0700 From: "Steve B" Subject: Re: Carbide or HSS, or both? / was Weird pattern on my work! The following is one guy's opinions, yours may vary: Running carbide will also start to show where the 618 is worn, as tool pressures add up and are transferred into the ways, headstock bearing and gear train. Carbide would make an otherwise fine 618 appear to be looser than it really is. I know that depends on your point of view, in that if you want to run carbide, you are going to need to tighten things up. The brazed on carbide tools are a great way to see what the basic HSS grinds should be. The main drawback to the Brazed-on carbide stuff is the inability to resharpen them without the "green" wheel unless your home shop is so equipped. Nicely touched up brazed carbide stuff works fine in my experience, but it is usually because the tool point radius is pretty sharp . With Carbide insert tooling, your best nose radius is going to be "1" . That digit represents the radius in 64's of an inch. So a "1" is 0.0156 radius . Going straight to your change gears, and seeing what feeds you have available, you will see the "fastest" feed available is 0.0078. That plays right into chatter in my experience. You are trying to cut your cut so to speak. If you had more feed, your tool nose would always be in "new" material. This helps considerably when trying to get past chatter. Not advancing the tool fast enough is a major contributor to chatter. You don't want to cut a thread to reduce chatter but the next faster feed would be the setup for a 72tpi thread which is a feed of close 0.014. In my mind as I was writing this I was thinking about 0.010-0.012 for a number 1 radius. 0.014 might be just fine, especially for roughing material off. But what do you do when it is time to finish? You still have the nose radius to deal with and feeds that are either too much or too fine to not be "chatter-free"? Instead of doing that, I think I'll stick with the cheap HSS and tool nose radiuses that I can control with a cheap bench grinder. The machine's feeds are set up for tighter nose radius . Brazed carbide tools would be the next step in my opinion, but the requirement for having a green wheel makes them a poor choice for my "home shop". And Carbide insert tooling? Yes, I have some at home, but it has always been more difficult to play with the change gears and monkey aroound with them than it has been to use HSS. They'd probably be great in wood and maybe plastics too . The tool pressures that are involved with carbide insert tooling, the nose radius and the shear type angle geometry all have to be taken into account within the machine tool. Those pressures will be transferred into your workpiece, and into your machine, skewing your carriage, compound and headstock. Keeping your tools as "free-cutting" as possible minimizes those forces on the machine and translates into better accuracy. Nothing is as "free- cutting" as a properly ground HSS bit. The 618 was designed for HSS tools and performs great with them. I don't think the machine has nearly enough "rigidity" nor the proper feeds available to make insert tooling worthwhile of the investment of the tooling. The 618 was made for home use with general home stuff like a basic bench grinder. Getting a tool post to hold 3/8 hss....that makes sense to me. Trying to run carbide insert tooling is silly. I imagine the insert tooling that is being used is 1/2 inch....but even that seems a bit large for the 618. Not to mention the initial cost of the tooling, and then inserts on top of that. That is just me. Steve Bergeron ------- Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 23:09:19 +0000 From: j.w.earlyx~xxatt.net Subject: Re: 'Backing off' what does this mean? [beginnerswkshp] "jonkzak" wrote: > I'm refering to the term that is used when sharping a reamer or cutting > tool. I've read serveral references that describe the process of > creating a reamer by slabbing off half of a profile and hardening then > the description mentions backing off on the cutting edge. What is > meant by this? Regards,> JJ For drills see the DrillSharp folder at the below location. For lathe tooling see the ToolSharp folder. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/mwhints3/files/ For milling and gear cutters check out the series in this location. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/mwmills2/files/Duplex/ JWE Long Beach, CA ------- Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 07:26:50 -0700 (PDT) From: Richard Schaal Subject: Diamond Grinding Wheel? What is the group experience in using a diamond wheel to sharpen brazed carbide bits? I'm trying to choose between diamond and silicon carbide wheels where the diamond looks to be about 3 times the $$ as the silicon carbide. Thanks! Richard ------- Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 15:32:10 -0000 From: "jdmichael2001" Subject: Re: Diamond Grinding Wheel? Richard: I've used both. I prefer the diamond wheels. The silicon carbide wheels are very soft so need repeated dressing to keep the wheel in shape and they produce a lot of swarf. The diamond wheel cuts much nicer and smoother but you can't be rough with it. You'll often see setups with one of each for roughing and finishing. You'll always be happier with the finish of the diamond wheel Jan ------- Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 13:03:43 EDT From: jmartin957x~xxaol.com Subject: Re: Re: Diamond Grinding Wheel? The primary reason for having both is the grinding of brazed carbide tools. The SiC wheel will grind both the carbide and the steel backing it. You can't grind the steel part with a diamond wheel. Diamond is fine for low temperature lapping of steel. At grinding temperatures, however, the steel will absorb carbon from the diamond and ruin the wheel pretty quickly. John Martin ------- Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 13:42:52 EDT From: wbhinklex~xxaol.com Subject: Re: Diamond Grinding Wheel? A green wheel is used to shape the carbide and the diamond wheel is used to hone it. You will need both of them. bill hinkle in Oklahoma ------- Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 17:49:33 EDT From: jmartin957x~xxaol.com Subject: Re: Re: Diamond Grinding Wheel? In a message dated 8/11/05, jdmichaelx~xxaol.com writes: > >Diamond is fine for low temperature lapping of steel. At grinding > >temperatures, however, the steel will absorb carbon from the > diamond and ruin the wheel pretty quickly. John Martin > > John, I'm not sure I understand what's happening, and/or from my > misunderstanding don't quite agree. I've done quite a bit of > grinding high speed steel parts with a (peripheral) diamond wheel. > That's the only productive way to get fit and finish with hard-to- > grind steels. I did use coolant. I'm suspecting that the migration > of carbon from diamond to steel is a hypothesis covering something > else happening such as plugging the wheel with steel that needs to be > washed away for continued clean cutting. Jan Hypothesis? The folks at Norton don't think so, and they know a bit more about grinding than I do. Maybe even more than anyone else. They recommend that you keep the grinding of steel with diamond wheels to an absolute minimum. I suppose I should have said "dry" grinding temperatures. You do say that you use coolant, which obviously helps. While your experience may be different, I think you'll find that most manufacturers recommend aluminum oxide or cubic boronitride wheels - not diamond wheels - for steels including HSS. John Martin ------- Date: Mon, 26 Dec 2005 11:46:46 +0000 From: Tony Jeffree Subject: Re: cutting fluids & cnc lathe questions [taigtools] NOTE TO FILE: This one message is about small lathe carbide cutters. At 10:27 26/12/2005, you wrote: >These days I always use carbide insert bits similar to these >http://www.sherline.com/2256pg.htm > or have a look at >http://www.chronos.ltd.uk/acatalog/ >lathe tools section , the Glanze CCMT insert types have been getting >good press here. I also tend to use indexable carbide - CCMT 0602 IIRC - which you can get holders for in 6mm or 1/4" shank. They work very well for me. Interestingly these are positive rake cutters but nonetheless work nicely with brass in my experience. Regards, Tony ------- NOTE TO FILE: Naturally if you are reading this file with the intent of learning about lathe tools and their cutters, you will also want to read the "Threading" file here. It will also be useful to learn more about single point cutters (for use on the lathe) in the "Shaper Bits and Toolholders" file where single point cutters are also used. In many instances the same cutter or holder can be used on both lathe AND shaper. ------- Re: Headstock alignment [THREAD BECOMES shear grind AFTER THIS MSG] Posted by: "n8as1x~xxaol.com" n8as1x~xxaol.com Date: Sat Sep 30, 2006 10:26 am (PDT) [atlas_craftsman] yellowhousejakex~xxyahoo.com writes: > What is a shear grind? My info shows the radius but > doesn't mention a shear grind. tough to describe , but will try ....if u take a round nose bit(wide , maybe 3 in radius) w/ a little BACK rake only, & end clearance, & rotate it 60deg to the left ,that is it .....problem is, u have to grind it so u can hold it at that angle in ur toolpost ...that means starting to grind while the corners of the bit are somewhat vertical, not holding it flat at the wheel ...when u put the tool to the work ,u have a steep negative rake (actually going uphill to the right ...this w/ the wide rounding of the edge SHEARS the metal off at an angle wide enuf to clear the feed rings ... sorry , cant send pics ...too ignorant , ...worst case , send me a SASE padded envelope .& i will grind u one .. best wishes docn8as ------- Re: shear grind Posted by: "jerdal" jerdalx~xxbrick.net Date: Sat Sep 30, 2006 7:45 pm (PDT) What I do is to grind a bit like the following... When it is in the holder and ready to cut, there is a cutting edge on the left side. From that side it slopes down to the right relatively steeply, at least 30 degrees off horizontal, or as much more as you want. The steeper it is, the easier it cuts, but the more it wants to pull into the work, and the weaker the edge. I do not put much radius on the "front left" corner. Just enough to keep it from breaking off, basically a very slight visible radius. Maybe only 10 or 20 thou.... The only "rake" to the tool top is left to right. I do relieve the vertical side at left a few degrees, and the "front" surface (end owards work as you look at it when mounted) also. Any angle for chip clearance I do with the holder. There is no significant cutting edge on the front surface, and I may even relieve it so that the front surface slightly recedes from the work as you go from left to right. A variation is a similar item with a round groove ground in the top, so that he left edge of the groove forms the cutting edge. This really peels off material, but forms a long curl, which can be an issue. For some reason, most people grind bits with large corner radii or angles etc, so that the cutting force is at least partly at 90 degrees to the axis of the work, pushing the tool outwards and the work in. This leads to spring in the work, and other troubles. I think it is a holdover from modern very heavy machines, and heavy roughing cuts. I don't think it is helpful with lighter lower powered machines in the home workshop. If you grind as above, and cut with an edge nearly at right angles to the work, the force is mostly along the axis of the workpiece, and you get very little spring. Then also, the larger rake angle across the tool reduces cutting force. Between the two effects, you should be able to take off a depth of cut over 1/8 inch on most any 10" lathe and mild steel. How fast a feed you can use will depend on the lathe power. I agree that if you use the right radius for the "front left" corner, you can adjust the smoothness of the finished surface. But since with a larger depth of cut, the feed is low, that isn't usually a problem. JT ------- Re: shear grind Posted by: "n8as1x~xxaol.com" n8as1x~xxaol.com Date: Sun Oct 1, 2006 10:06 pm (PDT) jerdalx~xxbrick.net writes: >> What I do is to grind a bit like the following...When it is When it is in the holder and ready to cut, there is a cutting edge on the left side. From that side it slopes down to the right relatively steeply, at least 30 degrees off horizontal, or as much more as you want. The steeper it is, the easier it cuts, but the more it wants to pull into the work, and the weaker the edge. << an excellent grind & the one i prefer for serious stock removal... the "shear grind "that i earlier described, probably rather poorly , is strictly a finish bit for .005 or less doc...,actually taking a scrape cut w/ a large radius angled upwards from left to right at abt.60 deg . to the horizontal(clearance behind the edge) ...this gives severe neg. rake as it forces the chip up hill...for most purposes ,the finish from this bit , w/ some lard oil/bacon grease, eliminates polishing/grinding on 1018 .....works great on shaper too , which is where it came from... shaper /planer...... ..when using the turret /& Q.C. holders for H.S. tooling, getting the rake by grinding a groove behind the cutting edge,gradually deepening to the right may be the most economical way to grind a roughing bit ...& while on the subject, a " dutch nose",/ "shovel nose" bit put to the work as near flat(straighty in) as one can stand w/out chatter also does a great job of providing a smooth finish w/ cuts under .005 ,as well as shoulder cuts, & serious facing IN (only in) cuts....this is a wide flat end ( just abt bit size w/ end clearance & side relief as it tapers back slightly for 3/8 inch or so.on both sides.grind in moderate back rake (no side rake)... very handy grind ... best wishes docn8as ------- 5% cobalt to cut brass? [sherline] Posted by: "Charles Fox" cafox513x~xxgte.net Date: Mon Jul 16, 2007 5:17 am ((PDT)) I have two questionable tool blanks, 1/4 x 1/4, with 5% cobalt rather than strict HSS -- if there's any difference. I'm thinking of grinding them specifically for brass. Is there anything I should be aware of, specially? Can I grind them on my regular grinding wheel (no, I don't know what it is but it does a fine job on HSS)? Anything else? ------- Re: 5% cobalt to cut brass? Posted by: "Keith Green" ksggx~xxtelus.net Date: Mon Jul 16, 2007 5:43 am ((PDT)) Not much difference. Just lasts longer in the cut. Might appear a tad harder to grind, depending on the grade of your wheel. Same rules apply: Keep it cool. Angles and methods of grinding to drill brass will be the same. Keith ------- Brazed carbide-tipped tools [sherline] Posted by: "Charles Fox" cafox513x~xxgte.net Date: Wed Jul 18, 2007 5:52 am ((PDT)) Are those tools tungsten carbide? In other words, do I have to get a different grinding wheel to sharpen them? ------- Re: Brazed carbide-tipped tools Posted by: "Frank Presley" fpres61x~xxyahoo.com Date: Wed Jul 18, 2007 6:06 am ((PDT)) Hi Charles: Most people don't bother trying to sharpen them. They just buy new and replace. They can be sharpened with what is known as a green wheel. Don't waste your money on the cheap carbide tools. They are too soft and fragile. Frank ------- Re: Brazed carbide-tipped tools Posted by: "Martin Dobbins" trainnutzx~xxyahoo.com Date: Wed Jul 18, 2007 6:37 am ((PDT)) There's a wide variety of brazed carbide tools available if you google it, and some sites don't tell you the manufacturer or country of origin (surprise, surprise!). Cheap imports often aren't worth the trouble, so stay away from them. J&L Industrial's price for Micro 100 is around $10, is that about right for US made tools from other manufacturers in this size? Martin ------- Re: Brazed carbide-tipped tools Posted by: "Marcus" implmexx~xxaxionet.com Date: Wed Jul 18, 2007 8:56 am ((PDT)) Hi Frank: I've tried green silicon carbide wheels for carbide...they're hopeless. Anyone who wants to grind carbide tools needs to buy diamond wheels if they want to achieve anything worthwhile. Diamond wheels are very expensive, but will last a very long time too, so they're a worthwhile investment. Personally, I'm not a fan of throwing away brazed carbide tools as soon as they get dull; to my mind, the ability to grind cutting tools is a basic skill that should be mastered by anyone who wants to have the freedom to make what they want, when they want. The principles are simple, the techniques are readily acquired with patience and practice, and the costs are modest compared to tossing out boxes of barely used tooling and having your job grind to a halt everytime a drill or lathe tool or endmill gets dull. Also, custom cutters can be easily made to a high standard of quality without elaborate gear, especially in HSS, and this ability is sooo useful once you've got it. On this topic, I respectfully have to disagree with Jerry Kieffer and other fans of throwaway tooling. Although it's true that you can do 90% of straightforward turning with nothing more than a right hand brazed carbide tool, you'll never find all of what you need in a catalogue if you want to do anything even a little bit advanced, and I think catalogue dependency is a poor habit to get into, especially for a hobbyist with limited finances and a relative abundance of time. Cheers Marcus ------- Re: Brazed carbide-tipped tools Posted by: "n2562001" jlkiefferx~xxcharter.net Date: Wed Jul 18, 2007 10:19 am ((PDT)) Marcus: We each have and are entitled to our own opinions that I suspect are mostly based on what we do. First I have never suggested throwing away used, dull or damaged tooling. I think I still have the first tool I ever used. They are of course used for various purposes because of the grinding equipment I have acquired over the years. However in my case as a hobbyist, it is unlikely my grinding equipment will ever actually pay for its self even though I would never give it up. Second my suggestions are directed at those who are starting out in this hobby and many times have little idea of what is available. A catalog will give ideas not only for purchase but for those who wish to make their own items who have no idea where to start. What can be done with simple tools such as an AR-4, E-4, Boring Bar and a cutoff tool is far beyond what most will ever do. Personal recent examples include a couple of scale Harley Engines, Clock/watch movement and a 1/8th scale John Deere Tractor with all items fully functional including Guages. No other lathe tools other than listed above were used or required. If they would have been I also have accumulated the billion dollars worth of grinding equipment that we both have and could do whatever was required. When making suggestions I consider where I was When I started. I try to suggest only solid, simple workable solutions that I HAVE ALREADY performed that make life as simple as possible. As you become experienced you will have plenty of time to become sophisticated. I suspect that if you and I were to walk into our shops today with only the knowledge we started with we would be in trouble. I suspect we would be standing there with our thumbs up our butt and have no idea what was going on even if it was explained to us. In my case I would have needed more than catolog`s just to understand what was explained. Jerry Kieffer ------- Re: Brazed carbide-tipped tools Posted by: "Marcus" implmexx~xxaxionet.com Date: Thu Jul 19, 2007 10:26 am ((PDT)) Hi Jerry: While I certainly respect your position, I still can't wrap my head around the notion that a single point cutting tool whether brazed carbide or anything else should be replaced when it gets dull, rather than being resharpened, even by a beginner. I can easily see a beginner chipping the corners off a half a dozen carbide tools before he or she gets the hang of turning, and a misadventure can happen to anyone which becomes at least inconvenient when you don't have a replacement, and never learned the skills to fix it. I've run a single Micro 100 carbide tool for a month of 8 hour days of hard turning in tool steel at 52 Rockwell, and sharpened it probably a hundred times during its life, getting miles and miles of extra use out of my fifteen dollar purchase for the price of 30 seconds in front of the bench grinder and a twenty year old diamond wheel. It's really not difficult to do. Granted, it's a smaller more gentle learning curve for a novice to just be able to take his cutting tool right out of the box and begin making chips, but an excessive dependence on "taking it out of the box" leads to unnecessary expense and limitation of useful skills in my opinion. Again, I have to stress that it doesn't take a whole army of specialized machine tools and a Druid's degree to enjoy the advantages of being able to roll your own. Yes I do it too, when time presses and when the cost of grinding a cutter is excessive compared to buying off the shelf, but I can make what I want, whenever I want, with nothing more than a bench grinder and a Dremel and a HSS blank. Of course I'd never suggest that a beginner standing in front of the lathe for the first time should be forced to grind a complex form tool before he ever turns on the machine, and to teach the novice about making chips on the lathe is perfectly reasonably accomplished by grabbing a pre-made tool and demonstrating with that. But tool grinding is still an important part of the skill set, and by downplaying its usefulness or implying that it's obsolete, I think we run the risk of degrading the abilities that our audience can rise to. I've seen this happen in my trade...the place where I used to work has no old toolmakers left; they've all been replaced by CNC button pushers, and no-one is left who can grind a custom engraving or milling cutter. It now takes a purchase order and a two week wait to accomplish the simplest of tasks, and this is a shop that even has all the necessary gear standing right there. These are supposed to be skilled guys.....I think it's nuts!! So, I've had my rant...my apologies if I've trod on toes. Cheers Marcus ------- Re: Brazed carbide-tipped tools Posted by: "Ian Newman" ian_newx~xxyahoo.com Date: Wed Jul 18, 2007 10:19 am ((PDT)) Charles, I agree with Frank's comment about the inherent weakness in the carbide tips - they will crumble if you take light cuts as the edge is not adequately supported by the body of the tool. They are designed for taking heavy cuts and the optimum depth of cut requires more power than a small lathe can deliver. Ian ------- Re: Brazed carbide-tipped tools Posted by: "Frank Presley" fpres61x~xxyahoo.com Date: Wed Jul 18, 2007 5:40 pm ((PDT)) Hello Marcus, I was trying to help out Charles as he was having a problem. I am also not a fan of throw away tools, but accept the idea that for some in their own circumstances it may be the better answer for them. I tried the cheap carbide bits when I first started a short while ago and found them to be a waste of money. There is no comparison between the cheap bits and the Micro 100 bits that I tried after Jerry G. suggested them to Charles awhile back. They are great tools. Another example of you get what you pay for. They are not that much more expensive nor are they as fragile. I am still working on my grinding of HSS bits. It takes a little practice. I will look into the diamond wheels you mentioned. Best regards, Frank ------- Re: Brazed carbide-tipped tools Posted by: "Marcus" implmexx~xxaxionet.com Date: Thu Jul 19, 2007 10:35 am ((PDT)) Hi Ian: As you've no doubt discovered, carbide is really intolerant to abuse, and can be ruined by the tiniest of misadventures. Carbide is very brittle...it does not tolerate shear or tension loading well at all, and will chip if you look at it wrong. But it is a marvellous material when loaded in compression and protected from shock, and is certainly useable on a small lathe with light cuts. The secret is to never allow the point of the tool to drag backwards over the workpiece or anything else, and to sharpen or replace as soon as the cutting edge deteriorates. HSS, on the other hand, will withstand all kinds of rough handling in that regard, and will tolerate the shock of interrupted cuts and accidentally flipping the lathe in reverse and misaligned holes that are being reamed and on and on. Carbide requires more care, but works very well, even on a Sherline taking a 0.001" cut. Cheers Marcus ------- Re: keyseat cutters [taigtools] Posted by: "Michael Fagan" woodworker88x~xxgmail.com Date: Mon Feb 25, 2008 9:32 pm ((PST)) Feb 25, 2008, Greg McFadden wrote: > so how about some sources that I can procure them from? Pretty much any industrial supply under "Slitting and Slotting Saws", some of my favorites come from Niagara Cutter: http://www.niagaracutter.com/millingcutters/saws.html Sherline has some relatively inexpensive ones in common sizes: http://www.sherline.com/3065inst.htm I don't think their arbor is compatible with the Taig, but if you get the proper holder (it needs to match the slitting saws which have 1/2" center holes) the saws will work fine. They're probably a better match for the Taig compared to the larger 1" center holes on many common saws. For keyseat cutters, this place seems to have a good selection: http://www.icscuttingtools.com/catalog/page_283.pdf I got most of mine from a local machine tool supply that was going out of business. They are listed by an American National Standard number, I use a #406 for most of the stuff I do. Their chart shows that as being 3/4" OD. On mine, made by Keo Cutter, the shank is necked down in a fillet for about 1/4" right above the cutter body. They're designed for reaching the centers of round shafts, thus the unusual shape. Here's the J&L Industrial page for all keyseat cutters made by Keo http://www.jlindustrial.com/CGI/JISRCH?N=4294966386+3963 As far as shanks for slitting and sawing saws, here are two J&L ones, which are identical to those offered by McMaster, MSC, Enco, and others: http://www.jlindustrial.com/5CZ-09345C/SEARCH:KEYWORD/product.html for a 1/2" shank, 1/2"-1" inside hole diameters; and http://www.jlindustrial.com/CNT-09350A/SEARCH:KEYWORD/product.html for a 1/2" shank, 3/8" center hole Let me know if this helps. Michael ------- Re: keyseat cutters Posted by: "Greg McFadden" greg.mcfaddenx~xxgmail.com Date: Mon Feb 25, 2008 9:37 pm ((PST)) Thanks, but unfortunately, all of those have shank diameters that are larger than the 3/8" that I can use. Greg ------- Re: keyseat cutters Posted by: "Michael Fagan" woodworker88x~xxgmail.com Date: Mon Feb 25, 2008 9:43 pm ((PST)) You could get Taig's own #1110 which screws directly onto the spindle, or their #1110ER, which is a 3/8" shank version for use in a collet. http://www.taigtools.com/c1110.html or from Nick Carter ------- Cutter grinder [taigtools] Posted by: "scuffer52" bigmillerx~xxshaw.ca Date: Thu Jun 5, 2008 2:02 pm ((PDT)) I would like to find a unit to sharpen 'just' the tips of 15 degree, (cone shaped/V-tip) engraving cutters which have a .005 inch tip. Accuracy is a must because I mill very small models. Manual sharpening is not an option. Commercial tool bit grinders are overkill. Does anyone know of a small affordable machine that is capable of sharpening this type of cutter accurately? ...or is there an attachment for a small lathe or mill that is being produced. I wish Taig or Sherline had something?? Everyone in the world doing small machining such as engraving, jewelry, circuit boards etc.(and that'a a lot of people/customers) use these cutters and need to have them sharpened regularly which makes me think someone, somewhere must be producing a small unit for this purpose?? I don't want to build a Quorn, Kennet, Tinker etc.....I would just like to purchase a unit that lets me quickly retip in my shop. A small unit in the $300- $400 range that sharpens just conical shaped cutters would probably fly out the door. Any and all suggestions appreciated. Thanks, Greg ------- Re: Cutter grinder Posted by: "Roy" rx~xxshred2.net Date: Thu Jun 5, 2008 2:31 pm ((PDT)) There's a Chinese knockoff of the Deckel that's around $600 IIRC http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=45707 ------- Re: Cutter grinder Posted by: "Tony Jeffree" tonyx~xxjeffree.co.uk Date: Fri Jun 6, 2008 12:15 am ((PDT)) Greg - I have a set of Taig's grinding wheels/arbors, a conventional cup wheel, and also a small diamond cup wheel that I have fitted with Taig blank arbors. I use them for precision grinding operations on my Taig lathe. You can see an example of the cup wheel in use in my article here (first 4 photos): http://www.jeffree.co.uk/Pages/multi-tooth-gear-cutter.htm Have you considered that kind of approach? Should be possible to make yourself a purpose-built jig that would allow you to grind these cutters accurately. That would give you a very inexpensive solution, and one that you could refine to exactly fit the need. If you need to do it a lot, a second Taig lathe (or more likely, treat yourself to a new one and use the old one) dedicated to that use would probably work out cheaper than the commercial cutter/grinders. Regards, Tony ------- Re: Cutter grinder Posted by: "Steve Blackmore" stevex~xxpilotltd.net Date: Fri Jun 6, 2008 12:17 am ((PDT)) >Commercial tool bit grinders are overkill. 'Fraid not. If you look carefully at the design of a commercial engraving cutter, you'll see they are quite complex to grind and commercial tool and cutter grinders are about the only thing that will do one correctly. I have a commercial Dowling engraver cutter grinder; you really need two wheels, a grinder for roughing and a diamond wheel for finishing and sharpening. Even with that, it's not easy to get the crutch angle, clearance and tip sizes just right and takes some setting up, practice and a microscope :) Often easier and cheaper to send them to an engraver's supply house and let them sharpen them. Steve Blackmore ------- Re: Cutter grinder Posted by: "Steve Blackmore" stevex~xxpilotltd.net Date: Fri Jun 6, 2008 12:34 am ((PDT)) > Have you considered that kind of approach? Should be possible to make > yourself a purpose-built jig that would allow you to grind these > cutters accurately. Hi Tony - that jig would have to have precision adjustment in all three axes and allow the tool to be rotated off centre axially and also rotated vertically whilst grinding too. You've just made a tool and cutter grinder :) Steve Blackmore ------- Re: Cutter grinder Posted by: "Tony Jeffree" tonyx~xxjeffree.co.uk Date: Fri Jun 6, 2008 12:40 am ((PDT)) > You've just made a tool and cutter grinder :) Still a cheaper solution than a commercial one (or a Quorn for that matter) ;-) Regards, Tony ------- Re: Cutter grinder Posted by: "Clive Foster" clive_fosterx~xxtalk21.com Date: Fri Jun 6, 2008 6:12 am ((PDT)) Steve: How much of the precision setting and adjustment capability of a proper cutter grinder is needed for sharpening any specific cutter? Obviously a commercial machine needs sufficient adjustment capability to cover pretty much any cutter in a market segment big enough to make it worthwhile building and selling the machines. However a home shop or fairly specialist small commercial user will use only a limited number of sizes and shapes of cutters so is it practical to consider cutter specific jigs for each of the cutters you actually use? As I see it the important things are: 1) to get the appropriate motion of the cutter as it passes the grinding wheel to achieve the correct shape; 2) to get the necessary depth of cut to sharpen the cutter. Assuming you have some means of mounting and turning the grinding wheel(s) these objectives should be achievable with a two axis screw slide to set the position, a rotating and pivot thingy to get the grinding movements, cutter specific holders to fit the thingy and appropriately angled spacers to ensure that the grinding is done at the correct angles. No doubt it can be done more simply if suitable lateral thinking is applied. Obviously at some point the proliferation of components to cover a wide range of cutters becomes more inconvenient than re-setting a proper tool and cutter grinder as required. After learning how to use it and produce repeatable results. However, for the occasional user, it's true that every adjustment provides another opportunity to get it wrong. Especially when peering through microscopes whilst trying to remember exactly what the edge should look like is involved. Mechanical jigs should make it possible to get the right shape each time with setting up adjustments pretty much limited to depth of cut and, possibly centre height. In general it's notoriously difficult to reproduce best cutting shape for engraving cutters by simple means but, in the home shop at least, I suspect that a modest performance reduction from a non-optimal cutter shape would be an acceptable trade-off for rapid, mechanically precise, re-sharpening. I'm soon to be sorting out and getting running my somewhat abused Clarkson T&C grinder so the question of whether to settle for a few "near enuf" mechanical jigs or learn to use it properly is moot. Clive ------- Re: Cutter grinder Posted by: "Roy" rx~xxshred2.net Date: Fri Jun 6, 2008 6:29 am ((PDT)) Clive makes good points. I've got a 1950's commercial T&C grinder and it doesn't have attachments or an documented way to do conical point cutters. I've made small single-lip hex-cutters on it (grind some tool steel to look like a hex key on the end, split the point through two vertexes and knock down the remaining non-cutting vertexes -- they work well for milling on thin material so it doesn't lift) and those are easily doable with an indexing jig, but I bet tiny sizes and points may be too fragile. The hard bit with the conical points is relieving everything behind the cutting edge -- there's probably a trick there with off-center ground cones and/or indexing stops for the last grind operation so it doesn't quite get the cutting edge, but I've not delved deeply enough into it. ------- Re: Cutter grinder Posted by: "Steve Blackmore" stevex~xxpilotltd.net Date: Fri Jun 6, 2008 12:32 pm ((PDT)) >How much of the precision setting and adjustment capability of a >proper cutter grinder is needed for sharpening any specific cutter? Quite a lot!! For example I have cutters that do 1, 5, 7, 10, 15 thou wide cuts. If you just want to hack a groove, hand grind three angled flats (three sided pyramid) on some HSS and stone the end at an angle. That will cut a groove. But if you want a burr free 5 thou wide line in something, your tool better be sharp, and accurately ground. You need to think very carefully about the geometry of an engraving cutter, it's not as simple as you may first think. For a start the center of the cutting edge is not on the axial center of the tool ;) Have a look here: http://www.pilotltd.net/engraving.htm Study the tip drawing carefully. I have both the Dowling and Deckel manuals, and they both use the same method of sharpening. The tool is at 3 different angles to the wheel and is rotated off its center and tilted as it rotates, which grinds in a spiral effect. The clearance angle should be designed for the material but the tip side relief and back relief aren't as critical. Again, depends whether you want to casually hack grooves, or engrave ;) Steve Blackmore ------- Re: Sharpening Lathe Tool Bits? [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: "Bruce Koch" tkd_master38x~xxyahoo.com Date: Fri Jun 20, 2008 9:31 am ((PDT)) Hey Gang: One of the best tools for holding HSS for grinding is a t handle tap wrench. Keeps the steel steady and prevents burned fingers. Bruce ------- Re: Sharpening Lathe Tool Bits? Posted by: "n8as1x~xxaol.com" Date: Fri Jun 20, 2008 1:22 pm ((PDT)) In a message dated 6/20/2008, pierredekatx~xxyahoo.com writes: >But I can easily spend an hour sharpening a bit this way, and I was >wondering if anybody has any tips for doing it better or faster or >whatever. each has his own ways , but i sharpen a new 5/16 bit in under 5 minutes..i am plenty old , but the last time i worked in an industrial environment was 1945.....u simply need to grind more bits & be less critical of perfection .....u carve an elephant by removing all that doesn't look like an elephant... i am sure someone else has a better way, BUT ..i use a cheap 60 grit wheel (i have two hi grade coarse stones i will gladly sell for 1/2 of what i pd....they dont break down , grind hot & slo ....cant find a 24/36 grit wheel for coarse right now ...go to flea mkt this weekend & see what's around....anyway, i grind the cutting angle first, paying attention to side clearance ...then put on the front clearance & redo the sides ...u cut put the front on first, but why grind the whole width? easier for me to adjust the cutting angle ...now grind in the back & side rake at the same time ...u r done grinding ...now grab a medium "india" 3/4 sq & stone the top of the cutting edge & the side clearance & put no more than a 1/32 radius on tip .30 sec max...probably 1/64 better, or ur cutting action will do it for u .......u most likely are too tentative....FWIW ....exact or anywhere NEAR xact angles "macht nichts" [GERMAN FOR DOESN'T MATTER] for home shop ....so u only get 5 minutes out of a grind instead of 7 minutes ...so what!!!!? u MUST have clearance...u NEED rake (except brass) each grade of steel, alum ,. brass has a different max efficiency of angles ....a home shop machines whatever garbage it finds CHEAPLY ...so u ALWAYS have angles that are not ideal for whatever piece of c---u are working on...& lots of times will need to run over to the grinder & change a cut angle, or rake for BETTER efficiency , NOIT maximum oput put ..... if it doesn't cut, take a good hard look & correct ..ususally lack of clearance, next insufficient rake for steel (more for most alum.) almost any front will cut if clearance & positive rack are there...may not cut for long or cut hard or chatter, but will cut ... using a 50 yr old craftsman 1/3 hp 6 in grinder(on the 3rd switch) ..back when 1/3 hp really meant that .....check ur amperage when rating ur grinder, the retailers sure don't ...... "developed Horse power" = sales garbage... i meant this to be helpful ...pls take it in that light ... best wishes docn8as -------- Re: Sharpening Lathe Tool Bits? Posted by: "catboat15x~xxaol.com" Date: Fri Jun 20, 2008 8:26 pm ((PDT)) When I grind my HSS tool bits I hold them in the "armstrong" bit holder. That larger mass of metal absorbs much of the heat from grinding. I just use the wheel that came on my cheap grinder, but touch up the cutting edge on an Arkansas fine stone by hand. I have seen posts on which wheel to use and of course ordinary wheels are useless for carbide. (But a carbide lathe bit makes a fine wheel dresser.) ------- Re: Sharpening Lathe Tool Bits? Posted by: "jerdalx~xxsbcglobal.net" Date: Sat Jun 21, 2008 5:17 am ((PDT)) > I have seen posts on which wheel to use and of course ordinary wheels > are useless for carbide. (But a carbide lathe bit makes a fine wheel > dresser.) You'd certainly THINK so, but I have found that isn't always true. I have a pink wheel on a grinder, and found that it wore down the old carbide lathe bit I intended to use as a dresser, without itself being noticeably affected. There are different grades of carbide, and that pink wheel evidently was able to cut the grade I had.... JT -------- Making Milling cutters. Course 101 please? [sherline] Posted by: "Greg Procter" procterx~xxihug.co.nz Date: Wed Jul 9, 2008 3:15 pm ((PDT)) Hi, I need to make a milling cutter (form tool) to mill a representation of corrugated iron into the surface of plastic in 1/24 scale. The (New Zealand) form is a 3" repeating pattern 7/8" thick with 3/4" radii. The cutter will scale to .3125"+ diameter and 0.044" deep. While I'm sure as an amateur I can bodge a D cutter to shape, it struck me that some of you blokes actually know how to do this sort of job in a professional manner and I could learn from you how to do the job properly just by asking. Please, lead me from start to finish, incuding all the obvious bits. This might be a first job for my Sherline lathe in CNC form(?) Thanks, Greg.P. NZ ------- Re: Making Milling cutters. Course 101 please? Posted by: "Marcus" marcusx~xximplant-mechanix.com Date: Wed Jul 9, 2008 8:09 pm ((PDT)) Hi Greg: Here's a step by step. You will be making another D cutter for this job, and you have two choices before you even start: 1) Make your cutter so you can lay your sheet on the mill and cut one groove at a time. 2) Make your cutter like a saw and stand your workpiece on edge so you can cut many grooves in each pass. If you choose style #1, you need to turn your profile on the end of a tool steel blank (A2 or O1 will work well.) If the profile is small, I'll often just lay it out in CAD, and section it up into 0.005" slices, then interrogate the intersection points of the profile with the slices and make up a table of coordinates so I can simply move successively from reading to reading on the lathe and turn my profile that way. If you've got CNC, you can ignore all that. Now split your blank exactly in half on the mill. Stone the milled surface nice and smooth on the side that will be the cutting edge. Mark your cutting edge with a felt pen, making sure you cover the periphery for at least 1/16". Now take a parallel carbide bur in your handy Dremel, and hand relieve the cutter just behind the cutting edge, going as close as you dare to go without nipping into the edge. With a good light and a decent magnifier, you can easily trim within 0.005" if you are patient and have a light touch. Now hack away all the excess material all around the rest of the profile. Don't be shy...have at 'er with a bench grinder or a file and make sure the cutting edge is furthest away from the axis of rotation. Just make sure you don't go past the center point at the very tip of the cutter. Now harden the cutter using the protocol appropriate for the steel you've chosen. Last job is to take a very fine mounted abrasive point in the Dremel and just kiss the cutting edge using the flat you'd carved on (when you first relieved the cutter with the carbide bur) as your guide. Two things that will help you immensely for this step: 1) Get a good light and a good magnifier. 2) Dress the mounted point with an abrasive stick while it's running in the Dremel (a coarse grinding wheel will do in a pinch, but a dressing stick is better). You want the abrasive point to run absolutely dead nuts true (zero runout), and you want the abrasive grains to be knocked down a bit so the mounted point doesn't cut too aggressively. Stroke it gently, in the climb cutting direction until the shiny edge on the cutter just disappears...if you get the light just right you can see it easily. Stone over the flat face of the cutter with a fine India stone to knock off the bur left by the grinding step and then run a fine Arkansas stone over the edge to give it the last lick and be sure you've removed all the remnants of the bur. Take a test cut, and inspect the cut and the end of the cutter. If it's not cutting freely, it means you've missed a spot when you were relieving the cutter. There will be a blob or a smear or a shiny spot on the cutter to tell you where you need to relieve the cutter more. That's it...the saw is made exactly the same way, only the profile is oriented differently and you have to do more relieving. Cheers Marcus ------- Re: Making Milling cutters. Course 101 please? Posted by: "Pierre Coueffin" pcoueffinx~xxgmail.com Date: Wed Jul 9, 2008 8:23 pm ((PDT)) If you go the saw profile route, don't forget that the headstock can be turned 90 degrees if that lets you clamp the part to the table more safely. ------- Re: Making Milling cutters. Course 101 please? Posted by: "Marcus" marcusx~xximplant-mechanix.com Date: Wed Jul 9, 2008 8:35 pm ((PDT)) Excellent point Pierre. I haven't owned a Sherline mill in a number of years now. I keep forgetting just how versatile they are. Cheers Marcus ------- Re: Tangential tools [MyMyford] Posted by: "Cliff Coggin" clifford.cogginx~xxvirgin.net Date: Sun Sep 14, 2008 10:59 am ((PDT)) > Hi Andy. > > For such a case, I can heartily recommend a tangential tool holder and > tool, for example such as the one sold by Eccentric Engineering in > Australia: > http://www.eccentricengineering.com.au/ > In particular the use of a jg to get all the tool angles exactly right > has proved quite an eye-opener for me - I have an ML10, as well as a > rather more rigid Lorch, and the surface finish on both was > significantly improved by using a tool that had the 'right' angles > ready-ground for me - particularly on steel - my free-hand grinding > leaves MUCH to be desired.... There is also a short video of this tool > in use at: > http://www.bay-commedia.com/dth > If you google for either 'Diamond tool holder' or 'Tangential tool > holder' you will find non-commercial examples which you may prefer - I > went ready made though, and I'm very happy with it indeed I have read of the tangential tool before and on the face of it, it sounds too good to be true, so why aren't they more frequently seen? I suppose there must be some disadvantages that I haven't spotted. Would anybody care to enlighten me? Is there a British supplier to save having to import from Australia? Cliff Coggin ------- Re: Tangential tools Posted by: "tr0up" a.troupx~xxemail.com Date: Sun Sep 14, 2008 2:40 pm ((PDT)) This product was a new one on me, although I now use the (similar but more elaborate) Ifanger system on my Myford and am a total convert. My Super 7 (purchased pre-loved) came with a couple of their holders and tips, and I was so impressed I purchased extra holders and tips (specialised for various roles) and use them for most external turning on the Myford. The tips are pretty pricey, though, being individually shaped for RH, LH turning, grooving, and threading. In the latter case, the tool can be tilted to the exact helix angle, and carbide or cobalt tips are available in 55 deg and 60 deg). However for my Willson lathe, which I just finally commissioned this weekend, I need something more substantial (and affordable!) for the occasions when carbide won't cut the mustard, and was so impressed with this product I immediately ordered it, in the biggest size (the lathe swings 17"). I'll try to remember to report back. Thanks for alerting me to this ingenious and simple system. One extra advantage of the tangential idea, particularly for woosy lathes like the 7, is that it's very easy to place a mild steel wedge under the foot of the tool to brace it directly to the cross slide. As the line of cutting force is directed mainly down the resulting column, this achieves a major improvement in rigidity (however you lost the safety overload feature which they - with some justification - tout as being beneficial for beginners). ------- Re: Tangential tools Posted by: "Tony Jeffree" tonyx~xxjeffree.co.uk Date: Sun Sep 14, 2008 5:47 pm ((PDT)) Cliff - There are a number of DIY designs around - for example: http://www.gadgetbuilder.com/ToolHolders.html#Tangent Do a Google search & you will no doubt find more. It isn't rocket science to figure out how to make a version that would fit a standard tool holder. Regards, Tony ------- [MyMyford] Reporting back on the Diamond toolholder system [was "Tangential tools"] Posted by: "tr0up" a.troupx~xxemail.com tr0up Date: Sun Sep 21, 2008 11:57 pm ((PDT)) As I mentioned in the previous thread, I was sufficiently impressed to order one of these. Generally speaking I remain impressed, having used it, but I have had one reservation confirmed and another is fresh. Firstly, I inferred from the dimensions given that the toolholders are smaller than I would consider appropriate for the sizes of lathes for which they are recommended: the toolholder I received was the largest they offer, and they recommend it for a 17" swing (which corresponds to the dimension of my big lathe). I normally use 25x25mm shank toolholders for this lathe; the shank on the tool I ordered and received is 14x14. It's about the same size as the smallest (series 1) Ifanger tangential toolholders I use in my Myford, for which they are exactly the right size, IMHO. Second reservation: the design has a minimum overhang (in this size) of 33mm from the edge of the topslide to the cutting tip. This is over twice the corresponding dimension for the Ifanger holder, whose shank is virtually the same size. The overhang would be fine for a big lathe, provided the shank was a more appropriately muscular in dimensions. But I'm happy to have it; it's another option which should work for some duties on the Myford, and having forked out for it I feel OK about making an improved version, with 25mm shank and using 10mm HSS toolbits, for my big lathe. The Ifanger holders are actually considerably cheaper than the Diamond (Eccentric Engineering) items of comparable dimensions, but the tips for the former are VERY pricey, especially in the big sizes. I don't mind forking out for a once-only, long lasting item like a holder, but HSS tips don't last long on a big lathe, and I like the idea of using standard square toolbits..... Returning to the Myford: I personally find both QC and 4 tool turret holders pretty frustrating, flimsy, bulky, inconvenient and inflexible on such a small lathe: I prefer to stick to individual tangential or conventional toolholders which allow the tool to be presented at centre height. I may be the only person in the world who actually likes the ex-factory Myford tool clamp, but having tried everything else I eventually found my way back to it. Apart from tangential toolholders, there's one other thing which makes this work: For custom or boring tools, I have a stack of MS packers which I have ground in 0.1mm increments (they are also graduated in length, about 1mm longer for each increment, making them easy to sort) and the thickness is number-punched on each. When I regrind a tool I measure the tip height with a height gauge, and write the necessary packer size on the top of the shank with an indelible pen. It's actually a very satisfactory and satisfying system: it's simple, everything about it is easy to keep clear of swarf; toolchanges are quick, and I can present any tool at any angle I wish with no fussing about reversing or swapping or removing tools in holders. I made a close-fitting socket with a sliding (captive) crossbar which lives on the clamping nut; prior to this, the solution was less ergonomically satisfying. ------- Brazed Carbide Lathe Tools [sherline] Posted by: "minitool41" minitool41x~xxyahoo.com Date: Fri Jan 16, 2009 4:03 pm ((PST)) During the past 3-4 months Jerry Kieffer had several postings where he suggested using brazed carbide lathe tools for improved results. I had been using a multi-edge carbide cutter and felt that it was providing good results, so I ignored his advice. Finally, I decided to purchase a few brazed cutters (including an AR-4 micro-grain carbide cutter) and was really surprised by the resulting improvement. Cuts are now clean, no chatter, and looked like they have been polished. Most of my work is on easy materials (brass, leaded steel, nickel-silver steel) so turning should not be too difficult. But the brazed cutter on the same materials cuts like a hot knife through butter! Thank you for the advice, Jerry! John Maki ------- Re: Brazed Carbide Lathe Tools Posted by: "VINCE PUGLIESE" gigitreoseix~xxrogers.com Date: Fri Jan 16, 2009 5:55 pm ((PST)) I have been using Micro100 AR4 and E4 on a two-position toolpost I made based on Mr Kieffer's recommendations and have not regretted it in the least. I -occasionally- flirt with the idea of using insert tools but have not taken the plunge yet. VP ------- Re: Brazed Carbide Lathe Tools Posted by: "n2562001" jlkiefferx~xxcharter.net Date: Fri Jan 16, 2009 7:31 pm ((PST)) John & Vince: Thank you for the feed back. It's always nice to hear when occasionally something goes right. While not perfect they have proven (at least in my case) to be the most efficient for general machining of all materials including wood. Insert tooling is of course highly efficient when used as designed in industral applications especially on larger equipment. Jerry Kieffer ------- Re: Brazed Carbide Lathe Tools Posted by: "n2562001" jlkiefferx~xxcharter.net Date: Mon Jan 19, 2009 7:54 am ((PST)) "DW Holtman" wrote: > Hello, > I have a couple of questions. First, are the carbide tools that Sherline such as P/N 11920 quality tools? How do they grade? Are they good for general use? How about their tools with inserts, such as P/N 2261? Thank you in advance. Best, DW Holtman < DW: The Brazed Carbide tools from Sherline that were used at the NAMES Show in April of 2008 Were USA made. They were Carboloy C5 grade that is the highest grade available from this mft. Personally I have used these brazed Carbides from many sources over the years. For being the least expensive USA made Carbides they have held up and performed quite well on all materials. One thing I have noticed is that the carbide height on the shank is a little inconsistent. In many cases I have had to file off at least the paint on the bottom of the tool, to get the cutting tip to center to the spindle when mounted in the standard tool post. The Sherline Carbide insert tooling that I have seen has been USA made and properly sized for Sherline equipment. Other than that I can`t tell you how it performs since I seldom use insert tooling in Sherline size equipment. However I did try Sherline's Ceramic insert tooling at the NAMES show last year. It had outstanding cutting performance on hard metals like Endmill shanks, etc. Jerry Kieffer ------- [NOTE: Original conversation is about getting a good finish while turning on a lathe; this message talks about how to sharpen a carbide tool bit.] Re: How good a finish can I expect [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: "pflatlyne" pflatlynex~xxyahoo.com Date: Sun Jan 25, 2009 9:28 am ((PST)) I grind my carbide tools with a Dremel tool (actually, it's a Chinese Dremel knock off). I use little diamond grinding wheels I get from Harbor Freight for 3 dollars for a pack of 5. It takes a little practice to get it right, but works just fine. I've also done it with the same wheel mounted in a drill press on the highest speed. I haven't decided which works best yet, but either option is cheap and effective. ------- NOTE: ***** Really good colour-code tip here. ***** Re: How good a finish can I expect Posted by: "Shad" shendersonx~xxthegeekgroup.org Date: Tue Jan 27, 2009 6:42 am ((PST)) Hi All, no Atlas lathe, just an old horizontal milling machine I'm slowly getting working. But I have a Taig lathe. It may look like a toy, but it's actually a damn accurate, repeatable little machine for small work. It handles steel "OK", but aluminum is its bread & butter. I've found that grinding my own tools is a PITA, but so far, the *BEST* thing I've done, is add 3 small plastic boxes to my "lathe toolbox". One is painted blue, another is red, the third is green. The blue box holds all my high-rake tools for aluminum. The tools themselves have one end spraypainted blue. The red box holds the medium rake tools for steel (again, the tool dead ends are painted red), and the green box holds the no-rake tools for brass. It's a simple thing, but it make a *WORLD* of difference when working, and it keeps me from applying the wrong rake to the wrong material. Sure, you *can* use any of the bits on any material you can chuck. But for the best results, I stick to a tool with the proper rake for the material I'm cutting. If it's a piece of mystery metal, I generally stick with the medium rake tools. Just my $.02! Shad ------- Idea for beginners to grinding bits... [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: "catboat15x~xxaol.com" Date: Sat Mar 7, 2009 7:30 pm ((PST)) Grinding HSS bits is hardly a precision project. When you buy a new tool bit, you see the front already tapered back from top to bottom. The square hole in the Armstrong tool holder tilts the bit up. So there is your clearance on the end and on the top. All you need to grind in is the side clearance to give a cutting edge with relief. So you are not cutting with the full width of the bit, follow the factory made slope of the front to leave a cutter the width you want. When turning brass you want zero rake or the tool wants to "self feed". Aluminum wants a bit almost like a tool for wood, lots of rake and clearance. For most steels use moderate angles. Keep a good fine hand stone near your grinder too. A bit of polish with fine stone makes the turning go easier and improves the finish on the work. You may want to get a set of preground HSS bits from Little machine Shop or ENCO and look at the way they are ground. A few degrees one way or the other is no big deal. Since you are using the lantern style tool post, arrange it so that if a problem develops the tool will swing away from the cut, not deeper. With the lantern tool post, when you adjust the "rocker wedge" to bring the cutter to center height any angles you ground in are changed as now the tool is not entering the work on a horizontal line, but tilted somewhat depending on how the rocker is used to cut on center line. I pick up a lot of my tooling from surplus and yard sales etc and some of the grinds on those used tools makes we wonder what in the heck was that tool used for? (That is one advantage of HSS over carbide, that is you can grind that special bit to get into that one corner where no commercial shaped bit can reach.) ------- Re: Fly cutter tool [taigtools] Posted by: "Michael Fagan" woodworker88x~xxgmail.com Date: Fri May 1, 2009 5:27 pm ((PDT)) On Fri, May 1, 2009, glynmck wrote: > What would be a good starting profile for a fly cutter tool for > non-ferrous metals or plastics? You want a large (1/16" or more) radius on the tip and a fair amount of positive rake. ------- Sharping Jig [Sharpening Jig] [taigtools] Posted by: "Bob Gilbert" staffwalkerx~xxyahoo.com Date: Mon May 25, 2009 1:24 am ((PDT)) As I am sure most of you have noticed with my occasional posts, I am pretty dumb about all things to do with lathes and machining in general. I'm a tobacco pipe maker so a couple of years ago I bought a Taig lathe to cut stems out of a hard rubber rod called Ebonite. It eats tool bits like crazy. I am lucky to make one or sometimes two stems with a new bit before it dulls. I can't seem to be able to sharpen them no matter how much I read on the subject so basically I burn up five bucks per stem. The specs posted on Nick's site of the sharping jig seems like the perfect solution. Dumb question number one: As I understand it, right and left cutters are actually the same, just rotate a right hand cutter and it becomes a left hand cutter. So why does the jig have two slots on the face? Wouldn't one serve to sharpen both? Dumb question number two: Do you think it's possible to make one of these with the mill attachment for the lathe? I have the attachment but have never used it. If so what type of mill cutter should I buy to cut the slots? Final question? If someone on here would be willing to make a sharping jig for me please contact me by private email with estimated cost. bob gilbert ------- Re: Sharping Jig [Sharpening Jig] Posted by: "David Underwood" dave.underwoodx~xxsympatico.ca Date: Mon May 25, 2009 7:01 am ((PDT)) Hi, Bob. Question 1: Visualize the toolbit mounted in the lathe tool post, ready to use. You're looking straight down from above. On one toolbit, the cutting "point" (slightly rounded, actually) is on the left and sticks out a bit further than the other (non-cutting) one. On the other toolbit, the cutting point is the one on the right. In each case, the front edge of the toolbit is angled back toward the non-cutting corner. So, there are two different angles. Question 2a: I don't have the lathe milling attachment, so I can only offer an opinion. The jig is canted 7 degrees, which means that the whole body has to be angled this much so you can cut the top and bottom surfaces. I used an angle vise to make mine in the mill. Can you manage this using the lathe milling attachment? Similarly the groove in the top of the jig means that the entire height of the jig body would be sticking out from the milling attachment vise. Is it substantial enough to manage this? I doubt it, but perhaps someone who has one can respond. Question 2b: When I made mine, I think I used a 1/4" two-flute end mill. Dave ------- Re: Sharping Jig [Sharpening Jig] Posted by: "Ken Cline" clinex~xxfrii.com Date: Mon May 25, 2009 9:07 am ((PDT)) Forgive me if you know this already, but tools for cutting hard rubber should have zero rake and 10-20 degrees of clearance. That means your cutter should look like a square bar with clearance angles ground in it behind the cut. The lack of rake prevents the cutter from digging into the rubber. Since all the ready to use cutters I have seen have rake built into them, you will likely be better off starting with blanks (lengths of square tool steel or carbide stock). At a minimum, you need to cut clearances on the front and side. I use a bench grinder with an adjustable rest for shaping cutters (use white aluminum oxide grinding wheel for tool steel, diamond for carbide). In your case, only one angle (15+/-5 degrees) is needed, and you can shape both front and side clearances, as well as a radius (if desired) with that one setup. You can hone the edge with sharpening stones after shaping on the grinder, if it helps. You can use the sharpening jig if you don't have a good bench grinder setup, just be sure to get the angles right for your material. By the way, Machinery's Handbook suggests that it is easier to grind hard rubber (with C36 abrasive) than cut it. ------- Re: Sharping Jig [Sharpening Jig] Posted by: "Stan Stocker" skstockerx~xxcomcast.net Date: Mon May 25, 2009 9:26 am ((PDT)) Hi Bob, I handle my tool sharpening either free hand (in most cases), or with some fairly specialized tooling and a surface grinder, which is an option most folks don't have. I did enjoy Keith's sharpening jig article, he has done some very clever and nice work, not to mention the excellent job he did writing and illustrating the article. To make his jig, you would need a 3/8 inch two flute end mill. A four flute would also work, but the end cutting and greater chip ejection of a two flute is handy. If using aluminum, you can get away with "quality import" stuff, although a good name brand tool will usually cut cleaner. While I don't mill on the lathe, I believe from reading the article that you could easily make this on the lathe. Much of the cutting would be done not with the milling attachment but rather with the work packed up and clamped to the cross slide. The seven degree angle on the base is probably the tricky spot without a mill. Realistically, I'd be inclined to step mill the waste out of the way and finish with a large mill file rather than try to mill the angle if I was making this jig on a lathe. You should be aware that this jig produces seven degree angles all around. This is a good geometry for steel, an OK but not optimal geometry for aluminum, and just flat out bad for brass. Aluminum cuts better with a steeper top rake, while brass needs ZERO top rake. The brass is easy to work around, just don't grind any top rake at all, so this isn't a big deal. After grinding in the jig, you still need to radius the tip a bit. Your observation that a left and a right hand tool are the same is close, but in practice isn't likely to be satisfactory. The only way you could rotate a tool 90 degrees and have the "handedness" swap would be 1) the top rake and side clearance angles are identical, and 2) the tip has absolutely no radius at all. The lack of tip radius is likely to generate some pretty poor surface finish, and is also a passing state as wear will round the tip. When turned 90 degrees, a nicely radiused cutting tip is now a VERY dull cutter. I've never cut ebonite, but have used other materials that are very abrasive. You may want to consider going over to indexable carbide tooling. A nice tool with a 221 insert is readily available, and each insert gives three tips before discarding. Catch the tips on sale for $2.50 or so and your tooling costs drop by a good bit. Even if the tip only lasts for a single stem, three stems now cost $2.50 rather than $15 in tooling. If you need a smoother finish, 222 inserts have a larger tip radius, typically giving a smoother cut, BUT they leave a larger radius in corners. Travers and Enco often have good deals on inserts, just be aware that you are expected to buy ten packs of inserts. They will in some cases sell singles, but usually at a really silly high mark up. Brazed carbide tools are another option, although I dislike throwing out so much material just because a tiny bit of edge is chipped beyond recovery. The cheap tools are not always very useful, the expensive ones cost more than indexed tooling. They are convenient however. You may also be using too soft a HSS blank (think about going to a 10% cobalt blank), or you may be grinding the top rake or side clearance too steeply. An excessively acute cutting edge wears fast, although it does shear nicely while the edge is good. If you are anywhere near Linden, Virginia (or are passing this way anytime) contact me offlist. You're welcome to come by and get some hands on tool sharpening help. It can be hard to sort it all out from books and the conflicting advice found on different sites. If you haven't done so, you might find the tool bit grinding article on Sherline's site to be helpful. It is probably the most pragmatic and straightforward set of basic instructions around. The only nit I have is that they repeat the advice to use water to cool a HSS blank. Dunking hot HSS into cold water generates deep microfractures the result in early tool failure. I know this doesn't specifically answer all of your questions, but hopefully is helpful in some way. Stan Stocker Linden, Virginia ------- HSS tool grinding [atlas618lathe] Posted by: "John Bump" johnbumpx~xxgmail.com Date: Wed May 27, 2009 3:10 pm ((PDT)) This isn't 618-specific, but it is small lathe-specific. I've been using primarily/only HSS tools, and have been learning to grind them myself. I'm mostly cutting aluminum and mild steel. The instructions I've read on grinding always say once you've finished on the grinding wheel you should round off the tip with a hone. I've been running the tool across a piece of 800 grit sandpaper two times instead, as I lack any sharpening stones. What I've found is that this seems to work pretty well with steel, but with aluminum, the sharper the tip, the better. I've taken to not rounding the tip at all: grind the top rake, then the side rake, then use the tool at that sharpness. It gives a more ragged surface finish, but it cuts much better -- deeper, smoother, with much less tendency to chatter. Intuitively this makes sense: the smaller the contact point, the less it's going to chatter. But I'm wondering if I'm just bad at tool grinding, and I could be getting the same general results with a rounded tip, and getting better surface finish as well. Any thoughts? ------- Re: HSS tool grinding Posted by: "Michael Fagan" woodworker88x~xxgmail.com Date: Wed May 27, 2009 8:24 pm ((PDT)) Your experimental results are pretty spot on. A smaller tool radius (such as a sharp tool) will tend to cut with lower cutting forces, but at the expense of surface finish (basically the radius smooths out the "scallops" left by a moving tool). A larger radius will last longer (thus work better in steel) and will produce a better finish. One thing to keep in mind is that by tool nose radius, your goal is about 1/64" or 10-15 thou radius. Anything larger will get into the range of much higher cutting forces very quickly (because the actual linear amount of tool engaged in the material increases rapidly). Michael ------- NOTE TO FILE: The following message from Doc provides some keen insights into getting the most out of cutters towards obtaining a smooth finish. ------- Re: Gear question [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: "doc" n8as1x~xxaol.com Date: Mon Jun 1, 2009 6:17 pm ((PDT)) You wont like this suggestion, but it is intended to be helpful .....unless u need the slower feed for winding coils, you need to learn more abt lathe operation ....pointed tool bits leave spiral rings...flat bit ends traverse the rings & eliminate them... rounded ends w/ a lite finish cut end up acting as a point cause lack of depth of cut .....i have the same lathe as yours, but it wasn't till I acquired an antique 14 in lathe w/ fixed belt feeds of .007, .011 & .016 that I got serious abt smooth final cuts. the lathe came sans gears.. i made an xtra hanger to use gears on the lead screw for a slo feed.. & over the course of a year or so, we cut abt 20 gears. I got the feed down to .0016, but in the interim, I learned to grind /set bits so that at .006, feed, all feed rings are gone...as a result, I have never used the auxiliary slo feeds...... .first ...use high speed bits ..they are sharper, require less pressure, & allow fine cuts. carbide is useful in special situations.. large cast iron bars, & hardened material ....u need to take more than one finishing cut, the last one under .005 w/ one of 4 bit grinds.one is a knife shape, like the carbide tipped bit(A)...you angle this near FLAT (but not quite) & cut under .005 towards headstock. too flat or too much d.o.c., & chatter occurs....u can grind a flat on the end of a 60 deg or so pointed bit, maybe abt 1/32 ... OR, use a shovel nose bit, (full flat on end, w/ back rake, front clearance &sides tapering back w/ clearance). you set this up as near flat as feasible, leading w/ the left edge.. this grind is also useful for incutting facing, & for squaring up shoulders...finally the ne plu ultra is a shear bit grind. u grind a round nose bit w/ abt 4 in radius on end w/ back rake only, so that when in the holder it ends up rotated counter clockwise so it sits at abt a 60 deg angle, & as u move towards headstock, it SHEARS across the feed lines. (when grinding this, u have to hold it not flat, but w/ the diagonals VERTICAL.. there are some pics around, hopefully someone will chime in w/ their location. I have some jpegs of this shear bit in use on my shaper, but none of lathe operation .. Best wishes Docn8as P.S. industrial practice in the 30's when these lite lathes were designed, called for a couple thou left for filing & emery cloth for finish .... today, parts are finish ground.... as HSMS, we when we want a "true" smooth finish, the above bit grinds will accomplish this ... because texts are geared for industrial usage, info on really smooth finish cuts is scarce... ------- tools and surface finish contribution [MyMyford] Posted by: "andyevans_2000" andyevans_2000x~xxyahoo.ie Date: Tue Jun 9, 2009 9:43 am ((PDT)) Hello All. I wanted to make a contribution to the group since as I have asked lots of questions and got lots of help. I know there has been a lot of discussion about tools (HSS vs indexable etc) with lots of problems from newbies concerning poor surface finish - I wanted to pass on my experiences from the last few months as they may be relevant to other beginners. I got a number of old HSS and brazed carbide tip tools with my Super 7 last summer - initial results using them were awful. I had a cheap offhand grinder and spent time trying create some new tools from HSS blanks but found it difficult to get the angles right and kept ruining already ground faces with a slip of the hand. I purchased a couple of new ready ground HSS tools from Chronos and straight away got decent, if not great, results and used those since. Results were OK, but found it difficult to take really fine cuts - which I guessed was down to lack of sharpness, my attempts at using an oilstone seemed to just change the tip geometry not make it any sharper - again down to lack of experience from me. A few weeks ago I purchased an indexable holder with some inserts (from JB cuting tools) suitable for general T&F work on steel using a small lathe. Initial results were good (not great surface finish) but the edges chipped very easily on interupted cuts and again taking very fine cuts was still problematic - again down to poor sharpness. Anyway, I purchased a 2nd hand Worden MK1 Tool & Cutter grinder last week. Last night I spent a while creating a simple knife tool from scratch, taking care to get all the angles right and creating a small radius at the cutting tip. The tool is very sharp. Initial turning results show a mirror like finish and the ability to dust a few tenths if required. I feel that being able to create a really sharp tool has been the biggest leap forward for me. Trying to use an offhand grinder didn't work for me because I didn't have the manual skills to be able to create smooth sharp faces at the right angles and becuase the wheel was too coarse - I also didn't want to spend time learning a new skill at the same time as trying to learn how to use a lathe. I found the Worden easy to set up and use - it doesn't require any manual skills, its just thinking through the angles you need and setting them all up. The wheel I have fitted is also fine enough to leave a sharp finish. Other things that have helped are getting the slides working smoothly and replacing the worn cross-slide feedscrew and nut with new items. Not sure if this is helpful to any other beginners out there but it's just my experience of learning how to use a lathe. Andy ------- Re: tools and surface finish contribution Posted by: "durnfjmx~xxaol.com" Date: Tue Jun 9, 2009 10:46 am ((PDT)) Well done, Andy, keep practicing - it'll become second nature soon! Just to add a couple of comments, the *actual* geometry (angles) of the tool is not that critical. ie. if the book says 6 degrees, then 7 or 5 degrees will do just as well - what is *really* important, as you've discovered, is to get the edge really, really sharp, and a tiny radius on the tip - also really, really sharp. Don't give up on the offhand grinder, though, you will often need to put a decent edge on a tool for a finishing cut, and won't have time to set up the t&c grinder. Use a medium coarse and free-cutting stone on one side of the grinder, and a fine, cool stone on the other. Make a decent adjustable rest for that side, or use wedges on a flat rest, to get the angles of the cutting edge somewhere near, then use a hand held diamond lap or an Arkansas stone, freehand, to give you a really sharp edge. All much quicker, when you've learned and practiced the techniques :) MikeD ------- Re: tools and surface finish contribution Posted by: "Norman Atkinson" ravensworth2674x~xxyahoo.co.uk Date: Wed Jun 10, 2009 2:32 am ((PDT)) Congratulations on your progress! You can now start looking at some of the fairly recent aricles in mags like MEW which have covered similar tools like Kennets, Stents and Quorns as well as your Worden. Again, HemingwayKits has expanded the scope of their machine far beyond when I dumped my Mark 1 (following insufferable grit problems). You can now move on to 'honing' with diamond pastes to do things like carbide scrapers. Cheers Norm ------- Re: tools and surface finish contribution Posted by: "Christopher Hicks" cmh21x~xxcam.ac.uk Date: Wed Jun 10, 2009 5:15 am ((PDT)) durnfjmx~xxaol.com wrote: >then use a hand held diamond lap or an Arkansas stone, freehand, I second the recommendation to use a diamond lap for the final polish. They're cheap, effective and easy to use - what more could you want? The word "freehand" perhaps needs some elaboration, though, as you do run the risk of rounding off the edges. I find that if I hold the tool in one hand and the lap in the other, I simply do not have enough control. I dare say with practice I would improve, but what I find works for me is either: 1) Lay the lap flat on the bench, face up, and hold the face of the tool firmly down onto it with a finger and thumb, or 2) Hold the tool in the vice with the face to be polished roughly horizontal. Hold the lap on top of the tool with thumb on top, and fingers hooked under the tool or braced against the vice. Use thumb pressure in the centre of the face to push the lap onto the tool, and then rub it just a few mm either way across the tool. The idea is that the thumb pressure does not go over the edge of the tool that is supporting it. (As ever, more difficult to describe than do!) You can also use a modification of (2) to put a final polish on the top surface of the tool while it is still clamped to the tool post, just before you take that final tenth off the job. Finally, you can also use a variation of (2) to polish the (deliberate) radius on the nose of knife of finishing tools. Christopher Hicks ------- Re: tools and surface finish contribution Posted by: "Christopher Hicks" cmh21x~xxcam.ac.uk Date: Wed Jun 10, 2009 5:29 am ((PDT)) durnfjmx~xxaol.com wrote: >Use a medium coarse and free-cutting stone on one side of the >grinder, and a fine, cool stone on the other. Mike, can you make any more specific suggestion for stone type and grit? I replaced one of the as-supplied grey wheels on my DIY-store grinder with a white Aluminium Oxide 60 grit wheel. Whilst a distinct improvement, it is still a long job to grind a usable tool from a 3/8" blank. Christopher Hicks ------- Re: tools and surface finish contribution Posted by: "durnfjmx~xxaol.com" Date: Wed Jun 10, 2009 6:38 am ((PDT)) Hello Christopher, I fitted a 100grit Blue Ceramic wheel to my DIY-store grinder after recommendation from a friend. See: http://www.toolpost.co.uk/pages/Grinding_Systems/O_Donnell/Grind ing_Wheels/grinding_wheels.html#Blue for details. I have also made a decent adjustable tool rest about 3" square to fit the grinder around the wheel, and combine that with a steel wedge with a 7 or 8 degree taper which puts (near enough) the right angle on most tools intended for steel. (I also have a Quorn which is obviously far more versatile, but the time it takes to set up is not justified for the majority of lathe tool sharpening.) When starting with a 3/8" or 1/2" HSS blank, I find that by far the quickest way of getting a useful tool is to grip it in the workmate -- outside the shop -- and attack it with a hand held angle grinder. My local BOC Gas and Gear store sell 4 1/2" discs that are only 3/64" thick. These are intended for cutting stainless steel, but cut chunks out of HSS tool blanks in seconds! So to make (say) a parting off tool, rough it out with this disc outside the shop, then transfer it to the shop grinder or Quorn to finish the shape, before honing the cutting edges as you described. Always wear decent goggles when using an angle grinder on steel - the effluent particles have a very high velocity, and go in unpredictable directions. MikeD ------- Re: tools and surface finish contribution Posted by: "Norman Atkinson" ravensworth2674x~xxyahoo.co.uk Date: Thu Jun 11, 2009 2:31 am ((PDT)) Bob Minchin wrote: > I too get good service from cheap double ended grinders. They have a > pretty easy life only running for 10 minutes or so every now and then. > The only thing I would suggest is worth checking is the shaft end float. > I have seen one cheapy with oilite type sleeve bearings which is no good > for our sort of work. Bob "timperrin97" wrote: > >> My grinder cost me £15 from B&Q so is it worth spending money on a > >> new wheel if it is probably going to die on me very soon anyway? Christopher Hicks wrote: > > My thought on that question is that if the grinder is rubbish, then maybe the motor will fail or the bearings will wear out. Either way, you can still transplant the decent wheel (if you buy one) to a new grinder, so you've got nothing to lose. Christopher Hicks < < Time for a stand back and assess the situation? At the moment a tenner will buy a Lidl or Aldi 'Chindia' grinder or about 2 gallons of petrol for (?) 80 miles. I bought a couple of grinders and so what, if they died on me, it would take longer than the fuel to go through the car engine. So what can we do with a grinder? Even with the paving stones fastened to each end, a bit of arithmetic will grind the start angles on a lathe tool. All that you need is to know that one degree in a 6" wheel will involve a simple formula of .0088"x clearance angle x diameter of the wheel. So 7 degrees on a 6" wheel is .0088 x 7 x 6 = .3696 or 3/8th to lift or drop your wooden or sheet metal rest. So you get a slightly hollow lathe tool but a cheap jack diamond hone will sharpen the tool (as the rest of you have said). Moreover, the odds of rounding the cutting edge is reduced. After that, it is merely rounding off the little tip. And away you go -- laughing and scratching! If you want to go up a peg in sophistication, you can buy some better wheels and another peg is to join ToolGrinding here and make Mr Nixon's old but very useful grinding jig to go onto the end or make two and go onto both ends of the grinder. OK, me???? Nope, I don't do that anymore as I now have better but mostly homemade tooling. However, the theory remains unchanged whatever fancy swag one has. Norm ------- Sharpening lathe cutters [MyMyford] Posted by: "Bob Salter" bob.salter1960x~xxgooglemail.com Date: Sun Jun 28, 2009 2:05 am ((PDT)) What should I use to sharpen my cutters? I used a bench grinder to sharpen some for a friend and totally ruined the stone very quickly. Bob ------- Re: Sharpening lathe cutters Posted by: "PAUL BACHE" paulbachex~xxbtinternet.com Date: Sun Jun 28, 2009 2:40 am ((PDT)) Hi Bob, were these tools tipped? Paul ------- Re: Sharpening lathe cutters Posted by: "Bob Salter" bob.salter1960x~xxgooglemail.com Date: Sun Jun 28, 2009 2:47 am ((PDT)) They did look like there was a tip yes. In general, what is the best way to do it? Bob ------- Re: Sharpening lathe cutters Posted by: "obald102" obaldx~xxihug.co.nz Date: Sun Jun 28, 2009 2:49 am ((PDT)) My first chance to actually reply to post as opposed to ask a question? On advice I am currently only using HSS tools on my ML7 and as part of that advice I was urged to swap out my grey grinding wheel for a softer white one and get a decent diamond wheel dresser. The difference was astonishing and I timidly forward this advice. I was also entreated to get an 8" grinder (as opposed to my 6" ones) but I haven't got around to that yet. I will. ------- Re: Sharpening lathe cutters Posted by: "PAUL BACHE" paulbachex~xxbtinternet.com Date: Sun Jun 28, 2009 3:09 am ((PDT)) For tipped tools, you'll need a green wheel, the grey ones are fine for HSS, take a look at this, lots of useful info: http://www.astronomiainumbria.org/advanced_internet_files/mecc anica/easyweb.easynet.co.uk/_chrish/tl-sharp.htm Regards Paul ------- Re: Sharpening lathe cutters Posted by: "John Stevenson" johnx~xxstevenson-engineers.co.uk Date: Sun Jun 28, 2009 4:16 am ((PDT)) Just a few notes to enhance Paul's post above. As Paul says, the green grit is for Carbide but they are very soft, they have to break up and supply fresh sharp grains, the result is they wear badly but it was the only way to go at one time. One disadvantage is green grit wheels by their action never get a sharp edge as if looked at under a decent glass but because Carbide is a powder it has a crunbly edge. Nowadays diamond wheels are very cheap compared to what they were but they are very slow in metal removal but they will give a sharp edge as the grain size is so much finer than a green grit. So green grit to rough -- and diamond wheel to finish. However the other day I chipped my big 3/4" square chamfering tool with brazed tip, I know it's old technology but it's an old friend to me I no longer have a green grit set up so that's ages spent on a diamond wheel. I then remembered I had bought a 4 1/2" diamond disk off Ketan at ARC for tile cutting, so popped that on the angle grinder in the cut off stand and literally in a minute I had took about 40 thou off this large tool. Got a good edge, just as friable as the green grit but soon licked up on the fine diamond wheel. So lesson learnt, 10 times as quick, cutting disk lasts longer than a green grit, win win situation. John S. ------- Re: Sharpening lathe cutters Posted by: "Ken Strauss" ken.straussx~xxsympatico.ca Date: Sun Jun 28, 2009 8:03 am ((PDT)) I don't know your location. If you are in the US and want to continue to use the brazed carbide tooling I would suggest that you consider a Harbor Freight # 46727 tool grinder http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=46727 Although the normal price is us$160, it is frequently on sale for $130 and with a 20% off coupon it is a real bargain. A clone of the Baldor grinder, it weighs about a hundred pounds, has tilting tables and comes with two green wheels. I replaced one with a white aluminum oxide wheel and the other with a diamond wheel. ------- Re: Sharpening lathe cutters Posted by: "Bob Salter" bob.salter1960x~xxgooglemail.com Date: Sun Jun 28, 2009 10:52 am ((PDT)) Hehe, I'm in the uk, not far from the stone of destiny. I haven't got my lathe yet, I'm having problems with the carrier delivering it. I think I'll probably just stick with HSS though; I won't be doing anything very heavy on it. I'll wait and see what tooling arrives with it though. Thanks Bob ------- Re: Sharpening lathe cutters Posted by: "Ken Strauss" ken.straussx~xxsympatico.ca Date: Sun Jun 28, 2009 10:59 am ((PDT)) Get a white aluminum oxide wheel for your grinder. It is much better than the grey wheels. ------- Re: Sharpening lathe cutters Posted by: "alan4227" a.j.moorex~xxbtinternet.com Date: Sun Jun 28, 2009 11:08 am ((PDT)) > for tipped tools, you'll need a green wheel, the grey ones are fine > for HSS. I have read elsewhere that the pink aluminium oxide wheels are better than white for sharpening HSS tools. Apparently they don't glaze so easily and they last quite a bit longer. Does anyone have any personal experience to confirm (or reject) this view? Regards, Alan ------- Re: Sharpening lathe cutters Posted by: "Rich Dean" toolman8x~xxcopper.net cmsteamer Date: Sun Jun 28, 2009 12:17 pm ((PDT)) Bob, Ken beat me to it. The White Alox type is what you will find in shops for offhand and surface grinding. On this side of the pond they are called toolroom wheels. 38A type about 80 grit. Grinding and shaping HSS bits is done quickly and gives an edge ready to use. They will wear back and have to be trued with a diamond point. These are a softer bond as grinding hard metals requires a soft wheel. Soft metals, a hard wheel such as the typical grey wheels. I have not tried the newer pink variety as I'm still using up a box of 10 wheels bought years ago. RichD ------- Re: Sharpening lathe cutters Posted by: "David Wain" d.wainx~xxxplornet.com grampys2002 Date: Sun Jun 28, 2009 3:15 pm ((PDT)) Hi Ken. Do you mind telling where you bought the diamond wheel and the specs for it? Also does Harbour Freight now ship to Canada? They didn't used to. David Cavan Ontario Canada ------- Re: Sharpening lathe cutters Posted by: "Ken Strauss" ken.straussx~xxsympatico.ca kstrauss7 Date: Sun Jun 28, 2009 5:36 pm ((PDT)) Insofar as I know HF doesn't ship to Canada. I live in Toronto and often visit relatives in the US. My grinder was purchased at the HF store in Syracuse NY. It was a few years ago but I believe that I got it for us$109 plus NY sales tax and was brought home under the duty free allowance. The diamond wheel came from Enco when on sale for about $100 and was shipped to my son who lives near Boston. I don't immediately see it listed on their website. I may be able to find the invoice if you really need the part number. The aluminum oxide wheel came from KBC Tools in Toronto and is part number 1-704-368. It is often on sale for about cdn$35. Cavan is near Peterborough? Do you come to any of the TSME meetings in Toronto? ------- Re: Sharpening lathe cutters Posted by: "Thomas Staubo" thstaubox~xxonline.no t_staubo Date: Mon Jun 29, 2009 1:38 am ((PDT)) I came across this supplier on the net recently, they have some grinding wheels that looks nice for HSS tools. Maybe one each of the 46 and 80 grit "ruby" wheels would be good? One for roughing, and one for finishing. Link: http://tinyurl.com/nzrezz Thomas Norway ------- Re: Sharpening lathe cutters Posted by: "Ruaidhri Murphy" rstjmurphyx~xxesatclear.ie Date: Sat Jul 4, 2009 10:27 am ((PDT)) Although newish to Myford Land, I've been a woodturner for 30+ years - so I've sharpened a couple of tools. As I am also 'into' OT, my friends reckon I'm lunatic on the subject of sharpness :-) FWIW - An ordinary white (or better still, pink) stone for run of the mill sharpening. Diamond wheel for tipped tools. Diamond hones for fine sharpening (I use DMT down to green). Brass disc with rouge for really fanatical finish sharpening. Not sure if that's any help, Regards, Ruaidhrí ------- Re: steel used in spindles for ER series collets [taigtools] Posted by: "imserv1" imservx~xximsrv.com Date: Wed Sep 2, 2009 2:14 pm ((PDT)) "greg.mcfadden" wrote: > Alright, I have a question for folks. what is the typical steel and surface heat treatment used for spindles and holders intended for use with ER collets? I'm working on effectively a custom ER-32 collet holder for work, and I figured one of you folks might know. I was considering 4340, surface hardened to rockwell C, 60, to a depth of ~0.8mm for the taper area. I am not certain that is the best choice, but I believe the surface hardness is required. < 4340 is not suitable for surface treatment. Rc45 is available in preheattreated 4350. It machines quite nicely and has good durability for one-off tooling items. However, it will abraid and wear under heavy production and wear conditions. 6150 is similar to 4340, with slightly better hardening capability to about Rc50 I believe. Both alloys harden all the way through. 4340/4350 both machine much better than 6150. For best results use 8620 carburized and hardened to Rc60-65 before finish grinding. That's what is used for most commercial grade (made in USA quality) tooling. Excellent machinability before heat treatment. Very stable after. Fred Smith - IMService http://www.imsrv.com ------- Re: Carbide or HSS? Now Tool Grinding [taigtools] Posted by: "Stan Stocker" skstockerx~xxcomcast.net Date: Thu Sep 24, 2009 6:42 am ((PDT)) Hi Bertho, I'll try to provide some ideas interspersed through your original message: Bertho Boman wrote: > On the issue of tool bits I am looking for a good way of grinding them. Now I just eyeball the angles and use a regular bench grinder but I need something better. I have seen the ones that look like a bench grinder but with a diamond wheel and an adjustable angle plate. I think I need something better than that. For example I am looking at grinding a 1 mm radius tip to use with a CNC lathe so the dimensions should be accurate for using tool radius compensation or even manually calculating the G-code. I do not want to break the bank so any higandh-end solution is not practical. I wish I had a surface grinder...Maybe I need to build a miniature one??< For handling flat surfaces the jig a fellow named Keith Brooke has written a truly excellent article that is linked from Nicks home page. Well worth a look for some ideas on flat surface generation, and for a very low cost way to do things well. Consider the diamond wheel and the tool holding fixture as two separate but related bits of tooling. Each one could be useful combined with other gadgetry: http://www.mechanicalphilosopher.com/kbsharpening.pdf For handing odd and precise radius grinding you need some fixtures. You don't NEED a surface grinder, you can do the work on any grinder that can take the right wheels and has good bearings. A grinder that can take or be modified to take cup wheels would be my first choice for many tasks. I'd suggest taking a look at some information on the Quorn tool and cutter grinder, and crawling the web for K&O Lee manuals. Once you have a better understanding of complex and high dollar (or high labor as in the Quorn) set ups, you can extract the bits of the design that give the motions you need and build what you want. I've always thought that a Taig lathe kit would make a mighty fine start on a miniature tool and cutter grinder. Add a riser block, a few fixtures and swings, an adapter to the spindle to take a cup wheel, a few witness marks and indicator mounts, and a shop vac hose holder to control crud and you could do most small stuff other than reamer flutes and long tools between centers. Haven't done anything about the idea to date, but if I didn't have the surface grinder and Black Diamond drill grinder base and motor setup I surely would. As I'm crowded in my shop I just might sell off the surface grinder and get small... Making gear cutters for clock and watch work involves many of the same problems. There are several excellent books that I'll suggest in ascending order of cost: The Clock and Watchmakers Guide to Gear Cutting by Robert Porter - An excellent paperback for around $35. The author provides plans for jigs and fixtures to allow you to generate angles, planes, and curves on cutting tools repeatably and predictably. Probably the most pragmatic and workshop style of the books I'd recommend. Fortunately also the least expensive. The focus in on adding tooling to a lathe, with the grinding wheel or disk mounted to the headstock. Any method of spinning the grinding surface that gives the same degree of access to the surface will work. You get plans for a clock movement as an added bonus should my world be of interest to you also. Wheel and Pinion Cutting in Horology by J Malcolm Wild - Probably the definitive in print book on the topic, but covers lots of material outside of your specific needs. About $50, hardback only AFAIK. Be aware that there is also a small paperback booklet that sells for around $12 of the same or a similar name by the same author. The booklet is useful, but not the whole big deal. If you are a miniature gear junkie or technology history lover, this is a really wonderful book. The Watchmakers Lathe by Archie Perkins - Hardback, published by the American Clock And Watchmakers Institute, around $75. If you want to know every quirky miniature machining hack for one off, repair, and limited production work ever conjured up to make watch sized parts and many of the tools and fixtures to do it on a lathe this is the book. Has chapters on making cutters for assorted needs. Superb photos, drawings, and the writing is clear and accurate. I absolutely love this book, it's one of the great contributions to miniature machine work. You just have to see past the fact that it's a watch lathe, and look at the stuff mounted onto and done with the lathe and you suddenly realize that the information does apply to all sorts of stuff you have or need to do. The chapters on tailstock uses just is mind boggling as most lathe owners consider the tailstock to be useful only for drilling or to support a center. All three of these books are available from the NAWCC library, a membership in this organization gives you the ability to check out books via mail. Welcome to the dark side of precision grinding and fabrication - we have cookies, scotch, and aspirin. > Second related question: Trying to manually hone the very small > surfaces is very difficult. One little tilt and an edge is not square > any longer. Any suggestions? Don't stroke the stone or hone with your fingers or wrists, the kinematics is wrong for linear motion. Instead, firmly clamp the work so the surface to be honed is level, position the stone flat on the work, lock your elbows against your side, and move your entire body forwards and back. It is sometimes easier to place a larger stone or hone flat (silicon carbide stuck to a surface plate with a film of water or kerosene is great) and press the flat to be honed down onto the surface. If you set it firmly and press straight down, the work tends not to rock and you can take nice long strokes, again by moving your entire body, not just your forearms or fingers. It takes a little practice to get a feel for it, this is work of risk not certainty as you are hand holding the work or tool. Blocks with hardened rollers such as used for graver sharpening can be useful to establish and maintain angles for honing straight edges and surfaces. > Third question: What do you recommend to buy for stones and diamond > polishing? I got some very cheap diamond stuff but it looks like an > oversized nail file. TIA Bertho Most commercial supply houses, jewelers suppliers, and clock and watchmakers suppliers have various decent to good quality small stones available. I've purchased good small triangular and flat stones from Enco and Travers. In addition to these suppliers stores that cater to woodworkers such as Rockler and Woodcraft have diamond hones and "stones" in assorted grits. For our needs, we want the diamond hones that look like fine sandpaper, not the el-cheapo ones that look like a bit of sawdust landed on wet silver paint :-) Don't overlook silicon carbide paper on flat disks or surface plates for honing, it's wonderful stuff. A search on "Scary Sharp" will turn up some neat info on sharpening chisels with abrasive papers. If you ever need an edge that can plane balsa end grain without tearout this is how you get it. Hope some of this helps, Stan ------- Re: Carbide or HSS? Now Tool Grinding Posted by: "Stephen Ellacott" sellacottx~xxsympatico.ca Date: Thu Sep 24, 2009 7:38 am ((PDT)) Hi Bertho, I will second Stan's comments about Keith Brooke's sharpening jig and diamond wheel. I made the jig and turned an arbour for the wheel. It works very well and saves a lot of time (and material) from the second sharpening on. When I made the jig I added a 10-32 threaded hole in the center of the bottom face which I use to clamp the jig to the drill press table through the slots or center hole so I don't have to use a vise. To hone the tools after grinding, I replace the diamond wheel with a 3" hard felt wheel charged with honing compound and use the jig again. Here is a link for the compound: http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=1&p=32984&cat=1,43072 Note: You may have to singe the felt to get the initial charge of compound to stick - do this outside or your shop will smell like a sheep on fire! Regards, Stephen ------- Re: Carbide or HSS? Now Tool Grinding Posted by: "Ken Cline" clinex~xxfrii.com Date: Thu Sep 24, 2009 8:04 am ((PDT)) You don't need diamond unless you are sharpening carbide tools. Personally, I don't bother sharpening carbide into accurate radii - I look for indexable inserts that meet my needs and just toss them when dull or chipped. Though I occasionally use some cheap 60 degree carbide insert tools on my stock Taig lathe (when I need accurate angles), I'm inclined to agree with the advice in another thread that steel tooling tends to work better. White vitrified aluminum oxide is usually used for sharpening tool steel, without need for hand honing. A fine 100 grit wheel leaves a good finish, but with only one grinder and no desire to frequently change wheels, I seem to get by just fine with 60 grit. If you are having trouble holding an angle with stones, you are more likely to harm the edge of your tool than improve it. But there are plenty of options if you need to hone the edges if you are having trouble, from small chips of oil or water stone, to lapping, and buffing systems. Remember that buffing wheels turn the opposite way compared to grinding wheels. You need a decent tool rest for offhand grinding. Mine is made by Veritas for sharpening woodworking tools, but I have no problem holding 1/4" lathe tools on it. It has a groove that I use for sliding a diamond dressing point to true the wheel. You might find a use for a groove like that to hold sharpening jigs. A reasonably accurate radius could be ground with a jig similar to those used for radius turning. Make sure the dresser and radius jig agree and are indexed off the same tool rest slot, and the radius will always be turned at the correct distance from the wheel surface. It might also be possible to form a radius by shaping the grinding wheel, rather than rotating the tool. I don't know if this is practical, but shaped wheels are used for forming large radii woodworking tools. I'm not sure what you mean by a "surface grinder", but I don't see any need to use a flat grinding surface. Peripheral grinding (on a bench grinder) is all you need for steel tools. ------- Re: Carbide or HSS? Now Tool Grinding Posted by: "Ken Cline" clinex~xxfrii.com Date: Thu Sep 24, 2009 10:17 am ((PDT)) On 24 Sep 2009, at 10:35 AM, Bertho Boman wrote: > Thanks Ken, You're welcome. Especially after putting up with my questions about DC motor controllers a second time. My lack of recall of the first discussion is somewhat shocking, but I suffer from some allergies that sometimes impair my thinking. One more thought about sharpening. My suggestion that 100 grit aluminum oxide is sufficient applies to tools for cutting metal. Cutting wood requires razor sharp, steeply angled cutting edges that have to be honed after grinding. On the other hand, Machinery's handbook states, without explanation, that excessive honing will reduce (carbide) tool life. I would choose whether to hone off the grinder based on your actual need. ------- Re: Carbide or HSS? Now Tool Grinding Posted by: "Colin Reed" reedxukx~xxgmail.com Date: Thu Sep 24, 2009 8:53 am ((PDT)) I also struggled with grinding hss tooling and ended up buying a couple of good quality carbide insert tools in the hope they'd solve my problems. No more grinding but I was never happy with the surface finish on steel compared with hss. I then read about an alternative type of tool holder, on the model-engineer.co.uk website forums, called the *Diamond Tool Holder.* There with many positive reports about quality of finish and ease of resharpening. I ordered the recommended Taig T6 sized holder (which uses 1/8" square HSS tool bits) from Eccentric Engineering in Australia, and have been very pleased with the results so far. http://www.eccentricengineering.com.au/ Model-engineer.co.uk discussion http://www.model-engineer.co.uk/forums/postings.asp?th=29818 There will be an article about making a similar tangential tool holder in the next edition of MEW (no 156 due out in a couple of weeks), which is already viewable online for subscribers. Colin www.reedx.net skype: colin.reed ------- Re: Carbide or HSS? Now Tool Grinding Posted by: "Martin Dobbins" trainnutzx~xxyahoo.com Date: Thu Sep 24, 2009 10:04 am ((PDT)) For those in the U.S. there was an article in the January/February 2009 issue of The Home Shop Machinist on making a tangential toolholder for the Sherline Lathe. The design could easily be adapted to the Taig and maybe improved along the way. Martin ------- Re: Carbide or HSS? Now Tool Grinding Posted by: "Leonard Davis" lleebluesx~xxyahoo.com Date: Thu Sep 24, 2009 8:54 am ((PDT)) Bertho, Sherline has a very good tutorial on grinding tool bits. Go to their site and pull it down. The thing to remember is keep the tool post at about 7* and your cut angle at no more than 10*. As said using a honing stone or Arkansas stone gives a nice finish. L.D. ------- Re: Carbide or HSS? Now Tool Grinding Posted by: "Stephen Ellacott" sellacottx~xxsympatico.ca Date: Thu Sep 24, 2009 9:28 am ((PDT)) Hi Martin, I don't know where you are located but in Canada we get them at Princess Auto for $4.99: http://www.princessauto.com/tools/powertools-accessories/rotary-tool-acc essories/8112385-1-3/4-diamond-cutting-wheel They also ship to USA. Regards, Stephen ------- Re: Carbide or HSS? Now Tool Grinding Posted by: "Daniel Fuller" fullerdjx~xxtx.rr.com Date: Thu Sep 24, 2009 11:25 am ((PDT)) Hi Colin: This might be a dumb question, but can the Diamond Tool Holder do left hand cuts? The video only shows one position for the tool holder and all the cutting on the video is right handed. Thanks in advance, Dan Fuller Carrollton, Texas ------- Re: Carbide or HSS? Now Tool Grinding Posted by: "Colin Reed" reedxukx~xxgmail.com Date: Thu Sep 24, 2009 11:46 am ((PDT)) Hi Dan. I haven't tried a left hand cut but I suspect probably not because of the dogleg in the toolholder - it looks like it would need to be perpendicular to lathe bed to be able to cut a 90 degree lh shoulder. The diy version in the next MEW issue looks like it may be possible as the toolholder is straight, or you could almost certainly mirror the design to make a left hand cutting version. Colin ------- Re: Carbide or HSS? Now Tool Grinding Posted by: "Bertho Boman" boman01x~xxvinland.com Date: Thu Sep 24, 2009 11:15 am ((PDT)) Today's emergency is to cut very small lenses, 3 x 12mm rod shaped, in acrylic so the tool bits should be super sharp. Ideally I should be using single point diamond tools but the couple of companies I called had several weeks lead-time and I need them now. To get the accuracy I need without breaking the bank, I built a custom CNC lathe using the Taig ER-16 spindle. Then I made a custom collet and closer since I got make a bunch of those little lenses. It is neat though to be able to tell it to move 0.01mm and it does. Even neater is that it backs up 0.01mm without any backlash. I got a dial indicator with 0.01 graduations and it clicks them off step by step. Eventually when the smoke settles and I have time to breath I will take some pictures. Bertho ------- Re: [SPAM] RE: [taigtools] Carbide or HSS? Now Tool Grinding Posted by: "Clif Lowry" CLOWRYx~xxSATX.RR.COM Date: Thu Sep 24, 2009 4:09 pm ((PDT)) Stephen: Are plans available for Keith Brook's sharpening jig? Thanks Clif ------- Re: [SPAM] RE: [taigtools] Carbide or HSS? Now Tool Grinding Posted by: "Stephen Ellacott" sellacottx~xxsympatico.ca Date: Thu Sep 24, 2009 7:23 pm ((PDT)) Hi Clif: The plans have a link from Nick's site and are located here: http://www.mechanicalphilosopher.com/kbsharpening.pdf Regards, Stephen ------- [taigtools] What's the real difference bewteen C2 and C5 carbide tipped tools? Posted by: "gehaddad" gehaddadx~xxhotmail.com Date: Fri Oct 16, 2009 10:27 am ((PDT)) Is it the cutting angles or the actual material? And, which ones do you guys use for cast iron, steel, brass, alum alloy? Thanks, George ------- Re: What's the real difference bewteen C2 and C5 carbide tipped tool Posted by: "Roy" dchobbyx~xxlive.com Date: Fri Oct 16, 2009 2:02 pm ((PDT)) Here is a link explaining some of the differences n grades of carbide. http://www.horizoncarbide.com/pdfs/Carbide_Grades.pdf Books have been written on the subject. Roy ------- Re: What's the real difference bewteen C2 and C5 carbide tipped tool Posted by: "Michael Fagan" woodworker88x~xxgmail.com Date: Fri Oct 16, 2009 2:48 pm ((PDT)) It's the grade of the carbide material. C2 is for aluminum, soft steel, and cast iron. C6 is for steel and other harder or more abrasive materials. ------- Re: Dovetail [myfordlathes] Posted by: "J R Slack" anvilx~xxnwlink.com Date: Wed Oct 28, 2009 12:27 am ((PDT)) On Tue, 27 Oct 2009 22:30:07 -0000, Stephen wrote: >Hadn't thought of that. I think I have a flycutter somewhere -- not >sure how large it is but I'll dig it out. If you have a 4-jaw and a stubby bit of HSS, you've got a flycutter. Grind the bit with appropriate clearances and grab it offset in the 4-jaw. Milling and moving can often leave a tiny step, less so with a flycutter. Either way, a bit of draw filing can work wonders. Regards, Jack JAX #1 Rule Of Physics: Don't confuse "Don't Know How" with "Can't Be Done" Don't take that as a criticism ------- Re: Dovetail Posted by: "Alan Moore" a.j.moorex~xxbtinternet.com Date: Wed Oct 28, 2009 7:34 am ((PDT)) Hmm, not sure about that idea. On my 4 jaw chuck each jaw only travels a few millimetres beyond the centreline before it runs out of engagement with its screw, so the offset I could get for a flycutter bit would be minimal. Regards, Alan ------- Re: Dovetail Posted by: "Bob Minchin" bob.minchinx~xxntlworld.com Date: Wed Oct 28, 2009 7:43 am ((PDT)) Can't you reverse some of the jaws?? Bob ------- Re: Dovetail Posted by: "Alan Moore" a.j.moorex~xxbtinternet.com Date: Wed Oct 28, 2009 8:14 am ((PDT)) On my chuck (A TOS chuck supplied at vast expense by Myford) it doesn't matter which way the jaws are turned, they still only go about 6mm past the chuck centreline. Regards, Alan ------- Re: Dovetail Posted by: "Tim Ostley" Tim.Ostleyx~xxgooglemail.com Date: Wed Oct 28, 2009 7:53 am ((PDT)) You can also drill and tap your stub of MS and bolt it to the faceplate - takes longer to set up but will give you a greater sweep. Tim ------- Re: Dovetail Posted by: "Steve Ward" zx12x~xxbtinternet.com zx12x~xxbtopenworld.com Date: Wed Oct 28, 2009 8:01 am ((PDT)) What I do, is run two opposing jaws together and pin the 'item' with one of the other jaws (essentially making it a 3 jaw chuck). The fourth jaw I then wind out towards the outside to balance the chuck. This usually gives a couple of inches swing - depending on the diameter of the flycutter mount. ------- Re: Dovetail Posted by: "durnfjmx~xxaol.com" Date: Wed Oct 28, 2009 1:17 pm ((PDT)) OK, when I suggested flycutting using the 4jaw and/or faceplate, I guessed that it was not a technique that was widely used. For the 4jaw, a hss lathe tool can be clamped at an angle between 2 jaws, pointing out from the center of the chuck towards (or even past) the periphery of the chuck. The other 2 jaws are used to support the tool, rather than to clamp it - try some setups, and use small cuts - it can be very useful. For the faceplate, make a block of some type that can be mounted on the faceplate at varying cutting radii, which can hold a shortened hss lathe tool to stick out from the block. You will probably want to bolt something on the opposite side of the faceplate to act as a counterbalance. You will need to grind the tips of the tools somewhat differently to "normal" lathe tools, but use similar clearance angles, and cutting speeds to you would use in the lathe. Use the same rules for cutting speeds, clearance angles, toprakes, rounded points etc., that you use on your lathe tools to start with - and progress from there. These setups often perform much better than the usual commercial flycutters because there is so much more inertia for the tool, which gives a less "clunky" operation, and a much better finish. This is all probably becoming of diminishing use to the OP, but the technique is one I have used in lots of applications when the workpiece is "too big" for the Myford - well, we all push the limits, don't we? MikeD in very dark (now) Pembrokeshire ------- Re: Dovetail Posted by: "steamcat" steamcatx~xxshaw.ca Date: Wed Oct 28, 2009 3:11 pm ((PDT)) Another flycutting technique is described in George Thomas' book "Workshop Techniques" where he is machining the faces of the pillar tool arms. He takes a piece of square or rectangular bar stock and holds it across the face of a 4 jaw chuck. There's a round HSS cutter in each end pointing out towards the tailstock and held in place with set screws. He even suggests having one cutter sticking out slightly more than the other so one makes a roughing cut while the other one makes a finishing cut. Sounds like a good idea to me and I hope to try it soon on the pillar arms. ------- [FLAT ON ENDMILL SHANK TO PREVENT CHANGE IN DEPTH OF CUT] Re: Home Position, Tool Length Setup with EMC2 [SherlineCNC] Posted by: "Dave Hylands" dhylandsx~xxgmail.com Date: Mon Feb 15, 2010 11:16 am ((PST)) >> Always pull the end mill down against the shoulder of the flat >> and then tighten the setscrew. Then it can't drop down. This is >> an exception to the rule to keep the length of the cutter as short >> as possible. Cheers, Al >> And that setscrew NEEDS to be tight, as if it is not real >> tight, the end mill will pull itself down, making your cut deeper >> and deeper as time goes on. On Mon, Feb 15, 2010, Tom Wade wrote: > Most of my end mills do NOT have a flat for the setscrew. Hi Tom: In that case, I just use my grinder and add one. It doesn't need to be very big, and it doesn't need to be perfect. I've had endmills pulled out of their holders, so the only way I'll use an endmill with no flat is when using a milling collet. Dave Hylands Shuswap, BC, Canada http://www.DaveHylands.com/ ------- Re: Home Position, Tool Length Setup with EMC2 Posted by: "Dave Hylands" dhylandsx~xxgmail.com Date: Mon Feb 15, 2010 11:41 am ((PST)) On Mon, Feb 15, 2010, Tom Wade wrote: > The cutters which don't have flats are, for the most part, > carbide cutters. And I don't have a diamond wheel. Hi Tom, Ahhh. Yeah that would pose a problem. I've found that I mostly use milling collets now and use 1/4" as my largest endmill. The milling collet gives a more rigid setup, and the cutters have less runout than with an endmill holder. I also haven't experienced any pullout when using the milling collets. Dave Hylands Shuswap, BC, Canada http://www.DaveHylands.com/ ------- Shear bit grind [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: "mf205i" mf205ix~xxyahoo.com Date: Wed Feb 17, 2010 1:02 am ((PST)) This one goes out to Docn8as. I wanted to thank you for the tip on the shear grind. I tried it in the past, but I didn't have much success. This evening I was making a part out of some A36 and I tried it again with 20 degrees off of vertical. The finish looked like the part came off a grinder, an absolutely unbelievable finish for mild steel. In 40+ years of doing this I had never heard about this grind. It is so easy and the results are so good that I find it a puzzle that it is not widely used. Thanks again, Mike ------- NOTE TO FILE: Doc's shear grind has been discussed before -- most recently found in this file in the conversation titled: Re: Gear question [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: "doc" n8as1x~xxaol.com Date: Mon Jun 1, 2009 6:17 pm ((PDT)) There are more of his discussions about the shear grind in the file here called Metal Shaper Bits and Toolholders. The most recent was titled: Re: Hello everyone from italy Posted by: "doc" n8as1x~xxaol.com docn8as Date: Tue Dec 8, 2009 6:26 pm ((PST)) Remember, metal shapers use many bits that are identical to lathe ones, so reading that file will be of help to metal lathe owners. ------- More on the shear bit [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: "dwaynekleck" dwaynekleckx~xxyahoo.com Date: Wed Feb 24, 2010 11:32 am ((PST)) I to had a "tough time" seeing the shear bit in my mind. On 21 Feb Bill Stietenroth posted in message number 61306 a web site that has a great picture. I have taken the liberty of re-posting that web site so the ones who missed it have more chance and thanks to Bill from all of us. http://www.gadgetbuilder.com/VerticalShearBit.html Dwayne ------- Re: More on the shear bit Posted by: "Scott Henion" shenionx~xxshdesigns.org Date: Wed Feb 24, 2010 11:49 am ((PST)) Do want to try that form. My lathe came with two variations on a shear bit: http://shdesigns.org/Craftsman-12x36/images/bits.jpg The left one is rounded at the tip (about 1/4" diameter.) However, it also has the top at an angle. This helps prevent chatter. Does a real nice finish. The tool on the left _is_ slanted, but only about 20 degrees. Just did not show well in the pic. It will cut in both directions, but does much better in one way. Scott G. Henion http://shdesigns.org/Craftsman-12x36/ ------- Re: More on the shear bit Posted by: "William Abernathy" williamx~xxinch.com Date: Wed Feb 24, 2010 1:49 pm ((PST)) The image on the left is not a shear bit, it's a conventional finishing tool. Nothing wrong with that -- it's a good way to get a good finish. It also cuts in both directions, which can save a little time. The shear tool puts a slanted cutting surface up against the work tangentially. Unlike the horizontally-disposed finishing tool, the shear tool does not have to be "on center" because the cutting edge meets the work along a vertical axis. Thus, as the work rotates, it runs into the tool a little above center, and leaves it a little below center. All it runs into along the way is edge. The image at: http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j276/yeathatshim/P2230010.jpg may provide better insight, as it shows the shear bit in its relation to the work. William A. ------- indexable carbide cutters [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: "redragonnet" redragonnetx~xxyahoo.com Date: Thu Feb 18, 2010 8:10 pm ((PST)) I get confused on the lettering system for indexable carbide bits? I understand that the first letter is for the cutter shape and the second letter is for the rake -- positive or negative. However sometimes the second letter is C? What does that mean? Also does anyone know a good site that explains the system in understandable terms? Norm, Camillus, NY ------- indexable carbide cutters Posted by: "Daniel Nelson" djnx~xxieee.org Date: Thu Feb 18, 2010 8:13 pm ((PST)) Try: http://www.anconline.com/nomenclatures/nomenclatureinserts.htm Regards, Daniel J. Nelson ------- Re: indexable carbide cutters Posted by: "Scott Henion" shenionx~xxshdesigns.org Date: Thu Feb 18, 2010 8:15 pm ((PST)) Here's a description: http://www.carbidedepot.com/formulas-insert-d.htm Enco has one in their catalog also. Scott G. Henion http://shdesigns.org/Craftsman-12x36/ ------- Lathe How To Site [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: "c_h_a_r_t_n_y" mgibsonx~xxstny.rr.com Date: Sat Feb 27, 2010 7:53 am ((PST)) http://www.americanmachinetools.com/how_to_use_a_lathe.htm Good pictures of tool bit shapes and angles. Also if you use the lantern tool holder, the tool holders have different angles of bit incline. Makes a difference. Mine for the 618 lathe are 7 degrees and 14 degrees. The 7 is original and the 14 is Armstrong holders. The web page shows 20 degree holders. And of course, with the rocker you make this angle different to get on center. chart ------- Lathe How To Site [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: "c_h_a_r_t_n_y" mgibsonx~xxstny.rr.com Date: Sat Feb 27, 2010 7:53 am ((PST)) http://www.americanmachinetools.com/how_to_use_a_lathe.htm Good pictures of tool bit shapes and angles. Also if you use the lantern tool holder, the tool holders have different angles of bit incline. Makes a difference. Mine for the 618 lathe are 7 degrees and 14 degrees. The 7 is original and the 14 is Armstrong holders. The web page shows 20 degree holders. And of course, with the rocker you make this angle different to get on center. chart ------- NOTE TO FILE: The above webpage (and a second webpage) has a detailed Army manual on how to use a metal lathe. ------- More on making the right lathe bit for the job... [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: "dougrl3" dougrl3x~xxaol.com Date: Sat Feb 27, 2010 1:18 pm ((PST)) Here is an interesting article by Jack Payne from the December 1964 Popular Science magazine. This provides information on grinding your own bits and specialty tools as well as a "Chip-Breaker Groove" that he promotes in the tooling. Has anyone made these type bits and what did you think with the incorporated groove? - waste of time or worth the effort? See pages 150-154 http://books.google.com/books?id=WCYDAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA150&lpg=PA150 &dq=Jack+Payne+lathe+tool&source=bl&ots=uNVmTUVgFr&sig=TrOUVI6uS7 jPeGPwx9oGN-MCZa8&hl=en&ei=PIqJS9uHOsO3lAfx85zPAQ&sa=X&oi=book_res ult&ct=result&resnum=3&ved=0CBEQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=Jack%20Payne%20 lathe%20tool&f=false Doug ------- Re: More on making the right lathe bit for the job... Posted by: "Scott Henion" shenionx~xxshdesigns.org Date: Sat Feb 27, 2010 1:32 pm ((PST)) My carbide inserts have the chip breaker groove; one reason I prefer them. Nice on things like stainless that work harden, those long hard strips get in the way. I will try a V-groove on my parting tool to fold cuttings but don't have much of an issue now. Scott G. Henion http://shdesigns.org/Craftsman-12x36/ ------- Re: More on making the right lathe bit for the job... Posted by: "Rexarino" rexarinox~xxgmail.com Date: Sat Feb 27, 2010 4:14 pm ((PST)) Worth the effort, especially for "gummy" material. If you don't have a chip breaker, the strings of swarf off the tool can become an unwieldy mass of flying sharp-edged metal that can easily get wrapped around the work, or the chuck, or the operator. Also a good idea when turning plastic. Rex ------- Re: More on making the right lathe bit for the job... Posted by: "Ron Gerlach" r7734gx~xxhotmail.com Date: Sat Feb 27, 2010 4:40 pm ((PST)) Doug: I agree with Rex. A good chip breaker and the proper relief/rake angles make all the difference turning gummy materials like the typical CRS bar stock that is widely used for a variety of projects. I used my surface grinder to make a few tools, using a radius dressed wheel to make a nice deep chip breaker groove. I have used this tool on all kinds of materials and it produces a finer finish than any of my other tools especially on CRS. Go for it. RonG ------- 5c collets in a 4 jaw chuck [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: "Bruce Morton" brucemortonx~xxsbcglobal.net Date: Sat May 1, 2010 9:58 am ((PDT)) I'm adrift in the confusing land of collets. For my Craftsman 101.07403 lathe I may want to use 5c collets for turning fly rod ferrules. I'll be turning small diameter tubing that requires extreme precision. I have a very nice 4 jaw chuck that I have never used..I always go to the three jaw for work that doesn't have to be re-chucked. My question is, could I purchase a square collet block with closer for 5c collets. I'm seeing a price of $35 on Amazon...and then "dial in" the closer to dead nuts and just leave it there and make my 4 jaw chuck into a dedicated 5c collet chuck? Or am I just completely not understanding how to set up for collets. I'm on a TIGHT budget...I cant be spending hundreds of dollars to "do it right". Thanks for everyone's help ...this is a great forum. ------- [atlas_craftsman Group] [Subject really is TOOL BIT GRINDING] Re: Questions on Craftsman 6" 101.21400 New to the Group Posted by: "David Beierl" dbeierlx~xxattglobal.net Date: Sat May 22, 2010 7:39 am ((PDT)) At 08:32 AM 5/22/2010, pep wrote: >Total Newbie to this and I'm sure I'll have fun attempting to grind >my first set of HSS bits to use. Dear Pep, Call up Clausing Industrial, ask for Atlas parts dept, and give them $25 +ship for the Atlas Manual of Lathe Operations. It's arguably the best one out there, miles ahead of the famous South Bend book, and it's specifically for our lathes. It has a whole (short) chapter on grinding tools -- always bear in mind that the given top profiles assume you'll be using the Atlas tool holders which have ?15-degree? ?more? top rake built in to the holder. Then look up jlindustrial.com or mscdirect.com or any woodworking supply store and get a white (ruby if it's a woodworking place) grade K/M/N 120-grit wheel for your grinder and a dressing tool if you haven't got one. If you also get a 60-grit one the work will go faster. When they come, dress them true so you can touch a workpiece to the wheel without it bouncing around. This may be the hardest part to start with, because unless the wheel is already very close to true it will try to set up an oscillatory couple with the dressing tool and your arm. If it does you can dress all day and never get there. Adding five or ten pounds of lead or steel to the package (tape or hold it to the dressing tool) will make it a lot harder for the wheel to bounce the tool away -- once it's true you shouldn't need the weight to maintain it. With a wheel dresser you have to use enough pressure so the tool spins smoothly and doesn't chatter. It will leave a faster-cutting surface than a carbide stick dresser, because it tears entire grains out of the wheel instead of shearing the existing ones. Don't even think about a diamond dresser, there's no way I'm aware of to use one effectively by hand. You might buy one though; it's kind of neat to have a quarter- or half-carat diamond to casually toss from hand to hand. Dress often and you won't have to dress heavily -- before each use is not too often. Always move the work from side to side to wear the wheel evenly and minimize dressing. While you're waiting for them, go to http://www.sherline.com/grinding.htm, print that and read it and figure out what you have to do to establish a seven-degree slope on your grinder rest. I used a bit of computer chassis with a right-angle bend and a very small C-clamp to attach it to my existing rest, but Lee Valley will sell you a much fancier rig for $100 or so... Don't dip an HSS bit in water to cool it. It doesn't need it and it's rumored that the thermal shock may possibly start some micro cracks. Do be prepared for the likelihood that the blank will get a lot hotter than your bare fingers want to touch; it's easier to make finish grinds in a single pass. For finish work round the tool point slightly with a few strokes of a stone, then hone the edges to a mirror finish or as close as you can. You can't get a cut that's smoother than your tool, ever. Remember that doing this to a wheel-ground tool will reduce your side rake slightly. Bear *closely* in mind that it only takes a second or two to round over an edge that you just spent ten minutes on, and that will take another ten to recover. Figures not exact but you get the idea. This particular inexorable Truth is one where I tend to believe that God was being just the slightest bit malicious when He set up the rules of geometry. Off the subject, but: A regular twist drill is a demon in brass. It will snatch, wander, jam and possibly break. To tame it, stone a tiny flat on the cutting lips, so that the rake angle where the drill actually engages the work is zero degrees. You won't believe the difference. I keep a box for brass drills -- if I need a new size I fix a regular one and then it goes in the box. Protect your tapers -- keep them clean of even the tiniest chips, and free of oil. A brass shotgun cleaning brush and rod in the appropriate size is excellent for scrubbing them out, and brake cleaner (you can choose between the flammable-vapors one or the anesthetic-vapors one, though they express it oppositely on the can) spritzed into (or on a wiping rag and onto) a taper will get any oil off in a hurry. If you don't need the spindle hole for a job, and particularly if you're through-boring a part, a wad of paper towel stuffed in the end will save you lots of time. Always store your chuck(s) with the working end down, so that chips won't trickle down into the mounting thread. Keep the spindle thread and shoulder rigorously free of chips, and the corresponding chuck parts as well, or you'll always be wondering why the chuck doesn't spin quite true, or why it's stuck hard onto the spindle. Stuck chucks are a beast -- in the worst case you have to literally turn away the chuck or its backplate. Be very thoughtful how much force you exert on a locked back gear -- if you strip teeth off the bull gear there will be tears. One method that can work almost magically is to chuck some hex stock and hit it (with the spindle turning free) with an air impact wrench. A Post-It note is four thou (.004") thick. Check out www.atlas-press.com/servicebulletins.htm for some very useful stuff, and print it. The home page is presently just a stub, but for now at least the files are still there at this page. Note that "leveling" a lathe actually means taking out any twist in the bed, so it will cut straight. A convenient way to do this is to very accurately level it along and across the bed at both ends; but if you don't want to spend say $80-200 for a sufficiently sensitive level, check out Rollie's Dad's method -- there's a post here within the last week or so giving a link that describes it. Don't skimp on mounting rigidity -- for bench mounting Atlas specify a bench that is "solidly built, well braced and with a good dry lumber top *at least two inches thick*." Edge-glued hard maple is good lumber, and for our six-inchers I think you can get away with 1 1/2" thickness. They go on to say "suggested that the top boards either be heavily dowelled or [preferably] that four or five 3/8 rods [all-thread is handy for this] be run edgewise through all the top boards and pulled up tight....top should also be planed smooth and level [which I take to mean "flat]." As an alternative a steel box beam or a chunk of half-inch steel plate should give a nice stiff mounting. The countershaft and motor don't need to be stiff in the same way. I'm presently using a 1 1/2" OSB-cored door with oak faces on top of a wooden cabinet with half-inch top. At the very least it needs a quarter-inch of steel or say half an inch of hard maple on top to make the surface stiff so the shims and mounts don't sink in, but I think what it really needs is to be replaced. Another very valuable book is L. H. Sparey, The Amateur's Lathe. http://www.amazon.com/Amateurs-Lathe-L-H-Sparey/dp/0852422881/ref =sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1274538305&sr=1-1 HTH, David ------- [atlas_craftsman Group] [Subject really is TOOL BIT GRINDING] Atlas Manual of Lathe Operations Posted by: "Blake D. Tatar" bdtatarx~xxoptonline.net Date: Sat May 22, 2010 8:19 pm ((PDT)) There is a guy on You tube who calls himself Tubalcain. He was a shop teacher and gives some great explanations for HSS tool grinding. Here is a link to the first video. http://www.youtube.com/user/mrpete222#p/u/60/hrDr4rYLiAk Blake D. Tatar WWW.BLAKEDTATAR.COM ------- [atlas_craftsman Group] [Subject really is TOOL BIT GRINDING] Re: Atlas Manual of Lathe Operations Posted by: "rod rowzee" rrowzee1954x~xxhotmail.com Date: Sat May 22, 2010 8:29 pm ((PDT)) Yes cool video I go here to http://varmintal.com/alath.htm#To ol_Bit_Grinding ------- Cobalt bits [sherline] Posted by: "Art Fish" 1art2fishx~xxcomcast.net Date: Wed May 26, 2010 9:44 am ((PDT)) A friend gave me a couple of "Cobalt" tool bits for my lathe. They are about 3/16 x 3/16 x 2 1/2. I've never used Cobalt before, is there some precautions about using them? Like, do they chip easily like carbide? Or are they sharpened similar to regular lathe bits, affected by heat from grinding? or any thing else I should know. They will be used mainly for cutting brass and some mild steel when rebushing clock mainspring barrels and the steel caps for them. Thanks Art Fish Back in Time Clock Repair Corvallis, OR USA ------- Re: Cobalt bits Posted by: "Rich Dean" toolman8x~xxcopper.net Date: Wed May 26, 2010 10:11 am ((PDT)) Art, "Cobalt" is another alloying element (about 5%) added to HSS. Makes the steel a little tougher and more wear resistant. Otherwise treat them the same as HSS. RichD ------- Re: Cobalt bits Posted by: "Rockytime" lesgrenzx~xxhotmail.com Date: Wed May 26, 2010 8:52 pm ((PDT)) Art, They will work perfectly for what you are doing. I use them all the time. Sharpen just like HSS. They just withstand heat better. Les ------- Re: Cobalt bits Posted by: "Forrest A" atkinonx~xxhotmail.com date: Thu May 27, 2010 2:34 pm ((PDT)) Cobalt bits are more brittle so avoid side loading them... FBA ------- Re: Cobalt bits Posted by: "lhbakeland" digitaltorquex~xxaol.com Date: Thu May 27, 2010 8:36 pm ((PDT)) I do a lot of drilling into stainless steels and heat treated alloys. I use cobalt bits almost exclusively. I have not known them to be any more brittle than regular high speed steel bits. Every batch of cobalt bits, without regard to manufacturer or cost is different. Some that work good with 304 stainless steel don't work good with hardened or tempered steel and vice versa. No one brand is consistent. Expensive made in USA brand name bits are sometimes only good for one or two holes in stainless steel. I was surprised, however, with how good the Chinese made Harbor Freight "Drill Master" cobalt bits are. Their other bits are marginal, but the 115 piece cobalt bits are a true bargain. I own three sets, buying the third set as a reserve. I have not gone through one set. They have really held up well. My thoughts and findings, Leo ------- [Conversation about what bit to use to engrave index marks on a dial] Re: ? about index marks. [sherline] Posted by: "Tom & Judy Bank" trbank1x~xxverizon.net Date: Sat Aug 21, 2010 11:17 am ((PDT)) "Bert Harless" bharlessx~xxq.com wrote: > I have an air die grinder, which is what I'd use. One of my other projects is to make a holder for it that I can use on the lathe so I may make it so it can be used on the headstock in place of the Sherline motor too. I have a whole box of diamond bits as well. I also have a broken carbide burr that I could grind to the specs of one of the engraver bits that someone else pointed out. < Bert: Carbide and high speed steel bits are OK, but if you use the diamond bits you will regret it. Diamond bits are abrasive and anything abrasive will produce dust that can get into the sliding parts of your lathe and mill. If you get such dust in your machines, it will destroy them, slowly, but it will wreck them. I just got done polishing a brass finial and sanding a spindle I had made on the lathe. The finial was done in the Dremel tool at the far end of my workshop from my lathe and mill, with emery paper and crocus cloth. The spindle was sanded in an adjoining room in my bench top drill press with a piece that simulates the lathe nose that fits in the drill chuck and accepts Sherline lathe chucks, etc. The lower end was a Sherline live center held in a piece of birch plywood that has a Morse Taper 0 hole in it. All the dust from both jobs was kept far away from the lathe and mill. Regards, Tom Bank ------- Best 1/8" end mill for aluminum cutting [SherlineCNC] Posted by: "RCGuy" calvino.rcx~xxgmail.com Date: Sun Jan 23, 2011 3:22 pm ((PST)) Ok I have a Sherline 8 direction CNC mill with the 10,000 RPM spindle and I was wondering what recomendations you guys have for 1/8" center cutting end mills for 6061 aluminum milling. I am making thin sheet metal parts out of .090 thickness material on a custom tooling plate. The max sized end mill I can run is 1/8" and I can run smaller but I'm worried about increasing my cycle times drastically. I found this ZrN coated end mill but wasn't sure if it was any good, and since it is carbide I am a little worried about chipping. Thanks a lot, Calvin ------- Re: Best 1/8" end mill for aluminum cutting Posted by: "Rich Dean" toolman8x~xxcopper.net Date: Sun Jan 23, 2011 3:34 pm ((PST)) Calvin, I run 1/8" Alum panels with 3/16" 2 flute carbide endmills all the time. 3 flute is ok, but I can't measure the diameter. 4 flute choke too easily and get broken. Coated is best in any case. 1/8" endmills in 2 flute carbide coated will do ok, but be careful with the chip build up and choking. They'll break in a heartbeat. I cut full depth in Z and 2 passes in X/Y most cases, 6-8 IPM. Always a constant application of cutting fluid. RichD ------- Re: Best 1/8" end mill for aluminum cutting Posted by: "RCGuy" calvino.rcx~xxgmail.com Date: Sun Jan 23, 2011 3:50 pm ((PST)) I have run parts all the time with a 1/8" end mill so I'm no stranger to how to use them on a HAAS VMC at my shop class. I am taking off a .02" DOC/pass to keep the chip production down with ramped entrances every time. Any tips on good coatings. I have heard good of TiCN and ZrN but both are up in contention for me. Also does direction like climb vs. conventional make any difference? Right now im working on a combo air blast/flood coolant system (similar to a mist system only with more force) to keep chip build up to a minimum is the hope. ------- Re: Best 1/8" end mill for aluminum cutting Posted by: "Jon" mc_n_gx~xxyahoo.com Date: Sun Jan 23, 2011 5:42 pm ((PST)) Climb cut! If you can get away with it use stub mills. Also make sure that there is minimal projection from the endmill. Leave as little shank as possible to minimize deflection. I do not know if you can take full advantage of coatings or not. TiCN is good for aluminum. They may help if you have coolant or cutting fluids. If you do not have coolant, then get plain uncoated and watch for built up edge on the endmill. ------- Re: Best 1/8" end mill for aluminum cutting Posted by: "Rich Dean" toolman8x~xxcopper.net Date: Sun Jan 23, 2011 6:37 pm ((PST)) Calvin, I too did the voc tech shop CNC classes. All hands on with Fadal and Fryer VMC's. Here I have a Sherline 5400 doing commercial parts engraving & milling connector holes. I buy whatever is on sale. Any coating is worth it. I'm not particular. Always prepunch for thru holes and drop the EM thru for a full depth contour cut. One pass rough out, one pass .010" finish cut. *Always climb mill*. Cutting fluid is WD-40 or 1/1 oil/kerosene in a refilled WD-40 aerosol can. Air charge. Hand applied. RichD ------- Re: Best 1/8" end mill for aluminum cutting Posted by: "RCGuy" calvino.rcx~xxgmail.com Date: Sun Jan 23, 2011 7:04 pm ((PST)) I am not too picky on coatings either but my rule of thumb is no TiN coating on aluminum. It is notorious for chip welding and I've seen it and had it happen so it's out for that reason. Mostly I want a coating that makes the surface nice and slick so aluminum won't stick :D! I am running my part with 1 pass to profile (maybe with a rougher, we'll see) and then one to finish at the final depth. Switching from a big HAAS machine that can scream through aluminum to a little Sherline is a big change but most of the guys in the shop won't touch anything under 1/8" and I've worked with 5/64ths on aluminum. It's all in how much you take off and how fast you feed in the end! I have Kool77 and I've had good results using it as a lube, but the main thing with aluminum is to keep the cut site clear of chips so if I do coolant it's got to be a full blown blast or it's going to make the chips hang around worse. ------- Tool Bit Choice [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: "dw63impalax~xxbellsouth.net" Date: Wed Jan 26, 2011 7:58 pm ((PST)) I have a 10" Swing Atlas Lathe. I have learned a lot from the info in this group. The Questions I have are: #1 What (Type) Tool Bit?? #2 Speed / Feed / Chip or Strings? I want to turn a piece of 6061 Aluminium 1.5" on the first Step of the shaft, then 0.875 diameter for the 2nd step, then .450, then .375 quickly with almost no tool marks. It is 3" long. I have turned lot of cold rolled steel and hit tolerances of 0.005. Are there any tricks to turning aluminium? I also need to deburr it. I will be doing this on a lathe that will spin 2500 rpm with quick change options. ------- Re: Tool Bit Choice Posted by: "Jon Elson" elsonx~xxpico-systems.com Date: Wed Jan 26, 2011 9:11 pm ((PST)) Aluminum suffers a lot from built-up edge, so brushing on a cutting oil helps a lot with surface finish. You can use HSS or carbide with this. Use a fairly sharp radius on the cutter and a slow feed. A chipbreaker on the cutter will roll the chip up and it should break off in little curls. You may need to change speeds one or more times for the different diameters. Around 600 SFPM is good for aluminum, so that is a bit over 2000 RPM on 1" diameter. Jon ------- Re: Tool Bit Choice Posted by: "Bruce Freeman" freemab222x~xxgmail.com Date: Fri Jan 28, 2011 7:17 am ((PST)) If you're new to grinding bits, you might be interested in my experience. I was intimidated by the idea of grinding bits when I first started because I was having trouble visualizing from the diagrams what the bits would look like. Seemed very complicated. (It isn't.) So, I went out and bought a piece of 1/4" square cold rolled steel ("CRS") -- paid a few bucks for it. I cut off a few lengths and practiced grinding "bits" till I felt I knew what I was doing. I still hadn't started turning my 6061 aluminum, and I still didn't have any HSS bits. But something clicked -- CRS is a great deal harder than 6061 -- why not just use my CRS bits? So I did. And it works. I still use these for 6061. The downside of CRS is that the edge wears faster than HSS, and it can't take the heat. Fortunately, 6061 doesn't heat up the bit that much. Also, the edge of a CRS bit can be redressed with a FILE, while it's mounted on the lathe. This proves to be a tremendous advantage at times. Obviously, this is limited to a simple tool with a single point or an edge of no exact dimensions. CRS would not be of much use for a form tool, as you couldn't maintain the edge long enough to be useful, or you'd have to refile it exactly each time you dress the edge, which is not worth the effort. So, for these limited uses, I recommend CRS as a cutting bit. It will never replace HSS, but it's useful in its place. ------- Re: Tool Bit Choice Posted by: "James Irwin" jirwin1x~xxaustin.rr.com Date: Fri Jan 28, 2011 8:28 am ((PST)) CRS cutting tools? Cool idea! Also obvious. Wonder why I didn¹t think of this years ago! One can case harden the sharpened bit and get longer wear. Jim I ------- Re: Tool Bit Choice Posted by: "William Abernathy" williamx~xxinch.com Date: Fri Jan 28, 2011 8:47 am ((PST)) 6061 turns pretty well dry, and is not as prone to gumming up on the cutter as other alloys, so you shouldn't have to worry about cutting oil. If you do start seeing buildup on the tool, dislodge it and use kerosene (charcoal lighter and WD-40 are kerosene by other names) for cutting fluid. I would recommend HSS over carbide, and as Jon said, sharper is better. If you want a nice finish, you should use a gentle radius, rather than the sharp one Jon recommends, except it sounds as if you'll be cutting to a couple of shoulders. Have you "checked in with the engineering department" about how crisp of a shoulder they need between the steps? If the edge needs some rounding/ filleting to it anyway, you might as well grind your tool to that profile and get it all done in one operation. Because you want a nice finish, use a slow feed. Unless you're doing this for money, there's no need to see how fast you can turn it. William ------- Re: Tool Bit Choice Posted by: "outlawmws" outlawmwsx~xxyahoo.com Date: Sat Jan 29, 2011 7:59 am ((PST)) A word of warning on assuming charcoal lighter fluid is kerosene. It is not. It can be nearly all kerosene, or it can be naphtha, or almost any combination of the two, or have other additives (Light oils usually). When it is nearly all Kerosene, you are probably alright, when it is mostly naphtha it is far more volatile, and could flash into flame, and certainly is not doing the same job as cutting fluid.. Outlaw ------- Re: Tool Bit Choice Posted by: "oldstudentmsgt" wmrmeyersx~xxsbcglobal.net Date: Sat Jan 29, 2011 8:13 am ((PST)) Bruce, if needed, you could case-harden the CRS, and for simple form- tools get a little more life out of them. Once worn, grind only one face, and you'd still have the hard skin for the cutting edge. Might need a diamond file then, but doable. Still ali or brass only, but might give you a bit more capability when money is short, or you can't just run out and get more HSS bits just then. HTH! Bill in OKC ------- Re: Tool Bit Choice Posted by: "Bruce Freeman" freemab222x~xxgmail.com Date: Sat Jan 29, 2011 2:40 pm ((PST)) Bill: It's a good idea, but as yet I haven't found it to be necessary. For a single-point tool or a very simple edged tool, it just isn't necessary to go harder than CRS to cut 6061 -- not if you're willing to wield a file occasionally. Easy to do. ------- Re: Tool Bit Choice Posted by: "Richard Marchi" rfmarchix~xxaol.com Date: Sat Jan 29, 2011 8:33 am ((PST)) I've enjoyed this group for the past year, as I slide into semi-retirement and try to get back to metal working that I left after finishing an apprenticeship 30 years ago. Maybe standard tooling practice in the industry has changed, but I'm amazed at the number of posters who keep referring to their use of carbide lathe bits. My training had HSS as the standard bit that was used for anything but really hard materials or for the first cuts on cast iron to get below the slag scale. Very occasionally a ceramic bit might be called for but, in general, we used HSS for everything. They are hard and tough, take a nice grind, give a good finish, are easy to custom grind and versatile. Am I missing something here? I like Bruce's idea of a beginner learning on CRS; but even though it will cut 6061, HSS will do it better, with less resharpening needed. Maybe I'm just stuck in the last century, or maybe the group has been taken over by a carbide infection? Dick ------- Re: Tool Bit Choice Posted by: "Scott Henion" shenionx~xxshdesigns.org Date: Sat Jan 29, 2011 8:49 am ((PST)) > Am I missing something here? Because you don't have to spend a lot of time grinding bits. With a QCTP you lose the angled bits like when using the Armstrong type holders. So you need to grind a top angle. I have many HSS bits but some of my indexed carbide cutters give a better finish (usually the coated ones.) I have 2 sets of index holders. That gives me plenty of left, right, straight and facing cutters. Bits are cheaper than HSS tools and far less work. Most have a chip breaker also so you don't have real long stings of swarf getting tangled in the work. I use HSS bits for things like threading or when I need a specific profile or for interrupted cuts. Guess I'm too lazy to do the grinding and honing of the HSS bits. I have a pile of HSS bits. Some seem to never hold an edge. I guess they are cheap Chinese ones. Scott G. Henion Craftsman 12x36 lathe: http://shdesigns.org/Craftsman12x36 ------- Re: Tool Bit Choice Posted by: "jmartin957x~xxaol.com" Date: Sat Jan 29, 2011 9:06 am ((PST)) Why make tool bits from low carbon steel? Why not make them from high carbon steel instead? I understand that people may wish to practice grind tool bits from something other than HSS before trying to grind them from HSS itself - HSS bits are not particularly easy to grind, and new ones are certainly much more expensive than low carbon steel. Plus, one is likely to have low carbon steel on hand. I'd suggest instead using high carbon tool steel - whether some nice new O1 or W1 ground flat stock or simply a piece of OCS from the junkyard. Easy to grind and, if annealed, can easily be shaped with files and hacksaws. Turn it, mill it, drill it or tap it if need be. You can even forge it. It's simple to harden - much simpler than case hardening. This is what the old-timers did, before HSS became available, and it's still a good material today. Case hardening low carbon steel is in my opinion inappropriate for lathe tools - and I've done a lot of case hardening. The case that you get with Kasenite and a welding torch is only a few thousandths at best, and won't stand up very long to use as a cutting bit. High carbon steel is far better. John Martin ------- Re: Tool Bit Choice Posted by: "Charlie Gallo" Charliex~xxTheGallos.com Date: Sat Jan 29, 2011 10:36 am ((PST)) Richard Marchi wrote: > Am I missing something here? Yep, you're missing what happened over the last 30 years. Today, industrially, it's rare to see anything BUT insert carbide tools - NO, not the old brazed tip carbide tools of old, but the then rare insert tools. What happened, as explained to me by one of the researchers from Kennametal, was that TRUE 'nano particle' material science came along, and they were able to make carbides that at the same time were harder (aka more wear resistant) and tougher (less likely to chip) at the same time as carbides were 30 years ago (or for that matter even 10-15 years ago). That along with advanced coatings, and advanced mfg ability drove the cost of carbide relatively to HSS through the floor. The big issue in both brazed carbide, and HSS is that when you sharpen your tool, it changes. In insert tools, the tolerances on the inserts are in the .0001 or so range, they are ALL the same. Unbolt the tip, index one setting, bolt it back down, and push the start button again - your CNC settings don't have to be changed. Remember that VERY little in industry today is done by hand. In addition, industry has figured out something called "High Speed Machining". Instead of flooding the work with coolant (EPA alert), and "burying the tool", particularly for roughing cuts, they take VERY VERY light cuts, relatively, but at surface speed and feeds that would make your hair stand on end. What they have found is that if you do it right, the heat comes out of the cut with the chip, and that the work stays relatively cool. By "surface speeds that would make your hair stand on end", you're talking spindle speeds in Aluminum that are in the 10K-20K RPM - with a 1/2" mill!. The trick they do is find the resonant frequency of the machine, and use that to their advantage - and up the FEED rate (it's all about feed) - we're talking about feed rates in the multiple inches per SECOND, and then upping the spindle so you are only taking say, .004 or so per tooth. They basically take a lot of LIGHT passes, even when roughing, but they do it FAST. (Do a youtube search on High Speed Machining.) The SIDE effect of this happening in industry is that the carbide mfgs realized they had to make specialty tools for small lathes and mills - the machines that basically have replaced small screw machines - the carbides, even if they have a negative rake (most did 30 years ago), usually have a moulded in chip breaker that makes the edge have a positive rake, and there are a LOT of tools available with 3/8" and 1/2" shanks, so they fit our lathes quite well. As carbide grades improve almost yearly, and holders are fairly standardized, surplus carbides that would have been unbelievably expensive 20 years ago are now available dirt cheap on places like eBay, or heck, even reasonably priced at a place like MSC. The biggest issue is some grades they only want to sell you 10 packs of inserts, and with at least 2, and sometimes as many as 6 or 8 cutting edges per insert, (and at $4-5 PER insert for some of them) a 10 pack gets expensive, and a 10 pack will last you, with careful use, decades in the home shop. I have enough inserts at this point for some of the sizes I got cheap (one holder, 30 inserts, 6 edges per - total of $65 with shipping) that I'll probably never have to buy an insert again, except for the rare small ones I use on boring bars etc (and if I want any full threadform specials - I don't have any full threadform witworth inserts). 73 de KG2V - Charles Gallo Quality Custom Machine-shop work for the radio amateur (sm) ------- Re: Tool Bit Choice Posted by: "Starlight Tool Services Ltd" starlight_toolsx~xxtelus.net Date: Sun 30, 2011 8:53 pm ((PST)) When I took my Millwright/Machinist training we were issued a few HSS Tool blanks and let go at it. After learning how to sharpen them and the basics of the machines, we had some projects to make. I was doing fine until I started threading a chunk of 5XXX series spring steel round stock I had picked up to make the bolts of my bearing splitter plates from. I went at it for awhile, turn, sharpen, turn, sharpen until the instructor came over and looked at what I was doing. He watched for a moment then said hold on, I'll be right back. He came back witha carbide cutter and I have been pretty much using carbide ever since. Yup, I have HSS, and use them when needed, but have moved up to Indexable carbide for most of my turning. They cost a few dollars each, but I do this for enjoyment, and if carbide makes my day more enjoyable, then I am going to spring the bucks for them. Besides most of my metal stock is Reclyclium, unknownium metals and it is often that I run into hardened spots. Yup it is good for a beginner to know how to sharpen his/her own bits, but for general use carbide has greatly taken over in any of the workshops I've been in. Walter ------- Re: Tool Bit Choice Posted by: "Cindy & Wayne Burner" burners4x~xxcomcast.net Date: Mon Jan 31, 2011 11:44 am ((PST)) Walter: recyclium, and unknownium, are used quite often in my shop as well. My hobby is antique and classic motorcycles, and a lot of the original parts are made of "unobtainium", and often the recyclium, or unknownium, can be used to duplicate these important parts. Wayne Burner Chester, NH Atlas 10X36 with QC ------- Re: Tool Bit Choice Posted by: "Starlight Tool Services Ltd" starlight_toolsx~xxtelus.net Date: Mon Jan 31, 2011 12:02 pm ((PST)) Wayne, Yup, those seem to be very well known metals although unfortunately the specs on them are never known. Properties like Hardness can range throughout the piece as can any of the other properties, but in my case, much of what I have to use came out of old tools. Upright posts, in-feed and out-feed rollers from planers, old chunks of shafting that had a spun out bearing journals so they were replaced in the tool, but now the old shaft is salvage metal waiting to be carved into something new. There is a part in there, just needs to have the excess metal shaved off. Aluminium circular saw bases are a good source of flat stock. Old salvaged structural steel brackets being tossed by the shop across the road. Occasionally there is a bit or bob, laying on the road that can be dragged back to the shop for future use. SWMBO's eyes roll any time I stop on the road and drag yet another piece of ____ back. Oh well, I do this to have fun. Walter ------- Re: Tool Bit Choice Posted by: "VBrannick" valestreetx~xxstny.rr.com Date: Mon Jan 31, 2011 12:38 pm ((PST)) Hey ~you guys ought to be in the fly tying group! Vince B. ------- Re: Cobalt VS. M2-AL? [taigtools] Posted by: "Yi Yao" yix~xxyyao.ca Date: Sat Feb 26, 2011 8:59 am ((PST)) Lewis hein wrote: > Hi all I saw an end mill in the enco catalog that is made out of M2 HSS alloyed with aluminum. They claim that it gives cobalt performance. I've heard of this stuff before from an independent source, and they had a pretty good report of it. Has anyone here tried it? < Yes I have. I do use M2AL endmills. They seem to perform the same as the HSS that I have. I do have a cobalt endmill, but it's a roughing endmill, so I can't exactly compare it. The M2AL and HSS and cobalt end mills are import tools. To be quite honest, I think the sharpening job means a lot more than the material. I've bought some ordinary HSS end mills with a wicked sharp edge. They cut amazing. It feels like it's half way between the import HSS end mills and the carbide end mills that I have. That's my opinion. I have also ground my own lathe tools with M2AL and M35 HSS (35% cobalt?). The difference there is quite significant. It feels like the cobalt one lasts longer and can take a keener edge. Hope that helps. Yi Yao ------- Re: Cobalt VS. M2-AL? Posted by: "Lewis hein" lheinx~xxvcn.com Date: Sat Feb 26, 2011 9:39 am ((PST)) Which last longest, the cobalt or M2AL? Thanks Lewis Hein ------- Re: Cobalt VS. M2-AL? Posted by: "Yi Yao" yix~xxyyao.ca Date: Sat Feb 26, 2011 9:52 am ((PST)) Cobalt. I think it holds its edge better at high temperatures too. ------- Re: Cobalt VS. M2-AL? Posted by: "Dean" deanofidx~xxyahoo.com Date: Sat Feb 26, 2011 4:28 pm ((PST)) The cobalt should last longer if things are getting hot, but it is also more brittle than regular M2 HSS. It will not take the same shock load. Over the years I've found that for small machines "sharp" outweighs most other considerations. If you can find plain HSS tools that are truly sharp, they will work better than cobalt that has a less keen edge. Most of the plain HSS end mills coming out of the Chicom factories are pretty decent for being sharp. They are a ways off from American or European makers in the carbide game, but their HSS seems usable. The biggest problem they seem to have with HSS end mills is getting the very end right. I have many Chicom end mills that are wonderfully sharp on the flutes, but are let down by the less than good grind on the end edges. Whether plain HSS or cobalt, most seem to have this problem. Dean ------- Re: Cobalt VS. M2-AL? Posted by: "Yi Yao" yix~xxyyao.ca Date: Sat Feb 26, 2011 8:29 pm ((PST)) I really agree with Dean. A sharp edge is more important than the cutter material in a small machine. In my opinion, it's well worth the money for carbide endmills. They cost about 2 to 3 times more, but they save you a lot of drama when making cuts. Unless you drop them or do something really stupid, they will not break, chip or loose their edge for home use. For all practical purposes in a home shop, you won't need to sharpen them ever. I have a book on the Quorn and Harold Hall's tool sharpening book and studying them both. While endmills can be sharpened in a home shop, it is a huge leap from lathe tools. It is not easy to put a wicked sharp edge on premade endmills like the way you can on premade lathe tools. Because a sharp edge is important AND it's hard to sharpen endmills AND carbide stays sharp, I like carbide endmills. For this reason, I now buy my commonly used endmills in carbide. I've used them for over 2 years. Most home shop machinists will tell you that they last a very long time. As for impact resistance my cobalt endmills have not chipped and they do not show signs of wear relative to my other HSS ones. I machine mostly aluminum and mild, free machining, and annealed tool steel on my Taig and Sherline mills. Both the M2AL, ordinary HSS and cobalt bits have seen their fair share of cuts before I switched to carbide. I avoid putting either the cobalt or M2AL tools under shock (i.e. abusive cuts) so I can't speak to their impact resistance. If you are thinking about getting drill bits or lathe tools, I definitely recommend cobalt over any HSS with any coating. You can resharpen these cobalt tools yourself and the edge that cobalt holds can make a big difference. To summarize, from my practice, I recommend: carbide for tools that you can't sharpen (e.g. endmills); cobalt for tools that you can sharpen (e.g. drill and lathe tools). ------- [sharpen carbide bit] Re: Thread Cutting Attachement [sherline] Posted by: "Bert Harless" bharlessx~xxq.com Date: Mon Apr 18, 2011 3:44 pm ((PDT)) On 4/18/2011 11:58 AM, DA Dossin wrote: > Tom, > One only has to chip one welded carbide cutting tool to realize, using > inserts are better.... > I would think, Sherline would include a carbide insert tool as a way > of giving you two cutting edges and encourage you to go back to > Sherline to buy more inserts. > I chipped a welded carbide tool.... To resharpen it, I would have to > buy a diamond wheel and change wheels on my grinder. I went to > carbide inserts.... and am happy. Of course, I also have HSS tools > but, they reside in my tool box next to the chipped welded carbide > cutting tool. DanD. Unless you need to remove a lot of material a little diamond disk on a Dremel will sharpen almost anything, and you can get a package of several for about $10 at our dear old friend Harbor Freight. Bert ------- Re: 3/16 brased carbide tips ? [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: "Charlie Gallo" Charliex~xxTheGallos.com Date: Wed Jun 1, 2011 9:57 pm ((PDT)) On 6/1/2011 David Beierl wrote:...snip... > However in my experience the 618 isn't actually well suited to > carbide*, and the longer I work with it the more I use HSS. > *i.e. not stiff enough. Carbide makes a great finish but except for > a tiny range of diameters you can't run it fast enough to get there > without chatter. ...snip... Gahhhhh OK - first, and foremost, almost all brazed carbide lathe tools are DULL when you get them, and they need to be ground in. As for insert carbide tooling. The whole "the lathe isn't stiff enough" line of thought is hokum. Today, industry runs carbide inserts on the tip on LONG boring bars, and they are a HECK of a lot more flexible than even a 6" atlas lathe is. Holders that take TPG-22X are CHEAP, and if you go to inserts like the CCMT 22.5x size, they are 'upsharp' small, and you can get one holder that will both turn and face, plus boring bars that fit the same inserts. I'll give you a hint how far carbide has come since I wrote my web page -- I'm running BIG surplus negative rake holders on my lathe, with inserts that have molded chipbreakers so you get an effective positive insert. You CAN run these inserts slowly, IF you wish (you just don't get the benefits of carbide), plus you can run them REAL fast. Today you can get grades that run well in steel, and OK in Aluminum (the aluminum specific grades are amazing in aluminum). TALK to the carbide suppliers -- I've NEVER had to lie to them -- I've told them 'my annual insert budget is in the $100 range, as I'm a hobby shop, but can you help me'. I've NEVER had one turn me down for tech support, in fact, they seem to LIKE the challenge, as it makes them THINK. A LOT of the breakthroughs in carbide tooling have come from 2 sources -- it's a field where 'real' vs SciFi 'Nanotechnology' makes a HUGE difference -- they have figured out how to get carbide particles a lot smaller, and therefore they can make the inserts both HARDER and TOUGHER at the SAME TIME (hint, most grades today meet BOTH the old C2 and C6 ratings at the same time). The second driver is things like 'swiss' lathes and the like. These are SMALL machines -- often VERY small -- on the order of 6" swing, 18 inch bed, but WAY stiffer and faster than what we have, but because of their size, and gang tooling requirements tend to use SMALL tool holders (3/8" and 1/2" shank) with SMALL inserts, with positive cutting geometries because workpiece diameters are small. My slightly out of date page, but everything I've written there still holds true (just that today you have MORE choices) can be found at: http://www.thegallos.com/carbide.htm Feedback is ALWAYS welcome, feel free to browse the site 73 de KG2V - Charles Gallo Quality Custom Machine-shop work for the radio amateur (sm) ------- Grinding BIts [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: "dws" dwshelfx~xxyahoo.com Date: Mon Sep 5, 2011 6:12 am ((PDT)) Thanks to Rick for the really informative reports. I've been grinding bits lately, and enjoying the power of getting whatever I'd like. Any thoughts on: 1. How hot can HSS get before being damaged? For a long time, I was scared to get it red. But that made grinding a real chore, very slow. Then I just gave it a try. Let it get to red right on the cutting edge, then quench. They seem to survive. The bluish patina comes off with a wire wheel. The resulting cut works and looks better for having been ground as one long push. 2. How to hold the bit while grinding? I have a small blister on inside of index finger showing the danger of just holding it purely by hand. A vise grip works, imperfectly, if the bit is held crosswise and gripped diagonally. 3. "why not" silicon carbide (green) for HSS? They say use AO. My SC wheel is softer, and thus more consumed by grinding than the AO wheel but it seems to grind ok. SC tends to cost a bit more, purely economics? One quickly learns why SC is better for grinding carbide, but not the other way around. 4. Any tips on rounding the tip? I can get it intuitively, just rotate it around a bit while at the right angle, but I'm still not very good at it. Right side up or upside down? Finer wheel? ------- Re: Grinding BIts Posted by: "jerdalx~xxsbcglobal.net" Date: Mon Sep 5, 2011 6:19 am ((PDT)) HSS is not damaged by being hot. It has the property of 'red hardness", which means it is still hard when at some degree of red heat. In fact, it is difficult to anneal HSS, most ordinary cooling rates will harden it. There is a special cooling time/temperature profile to anneal it. It IS however, possible to damage it by quenching too fast, such as in water. The edge can develop small cracks, and it will then tend to "crumble" under cutting pressure. Another point.....grinding does produce heat, but cramming the work into the wheel produces more heat than is necessary. Better to get a coarser wheel, of a different "grade". The grade, or hardness of the bond in the wheel affects how fast dull grit drops off the wheel. Ideally the grit should drop off as soon as it is dull. Usually you use a softer bond wheel with hard materials for that reason, the grit dulls faster on hard stuff. The regular dirty-gray hardware store wheel that comes with every grinder is the worst.... too hard a bond for most work means the wheel "glazes", meaning that the dull grit is held tight and it stops cutting unless you cram the work into the wheel, producing a lot of friction as the dull grit "rubs off" the material instead of cutting cleanly. It is often also a finer wheel than optimal, so that it takes small cuts and loads-up faster. You have to "dress" the wheel a lot when it is too hard or loading up. "Dressing" means to use a diamond or star wheel, etc, to remove the outer layer of dull grit, or the grit that has metal jammed-into the pores of the wheel. The right wheel cuts cleanly with little effort on your part. If you have to "cram" the work in with "one long PUSH" you may need a coarser and softer wheel. If the work is getting blue, it is getting pretty hot, and the wheel is probably too hard or too fine. JT ------- Re: Grinding BIts Posted by: "RG Sparber" rgsparberx~xxaol.com Date: Mon Sep 5, 2011 6:49 am ((PDT)) DWS: You are asking a lot of great questions. If the answers are as good, this might turn into another article. The group would be the author and I would be the editor. I completely agree with you about the flexibility of HSS. The blanks are low cost, can be re-cut, and are easily shaped with a grinder and a hand stone. My favorite tool holders are tangential (Diamond and Wimberley). Both use HSS and both take almost no skill to sharpen. I use my bench grinder on both of them. The Diamond has a fixture. The Wimberley doesn't need one. You sharpen the Wimberley while it is in the QCTP hold. I do seem to recall someone saying that the heat of grinding does not hurt HSS. As you have found, it is more likely YOU would be hurt by the heat. I cool my bits just so I can hang onto them. I also do my hogging on a regular bench grinder and grind the final angles with nice finish on my tool grinder. It is my understanding that the green wheels will load up with HSS. I just placed an order for an aluminum oxide wheel at Western Tool. Total cost was $42. Sure hope it helps for that kind of money. I "round" my tip by running the cutter forward and back on a stone. This creates a flat in a controlled fashion. When it is the right width, I round it with the same stone by having the cutter at various angles side to side. The corners created by making the flat are tiny so it doesn't take much to make it round. I do not use a wheel to form this feature. Rick ------- Re: Grinding BIts Posted by: "RG Sparber" rgsparberx~xxaol.com Date: Mon Sep 5, 2011 7:06 am ((PDT)) JT, I guess I get away with a water dunk because I grind until it is uncomfortable to hold. I've never had an edge crumble on me. Most of my grinding is to sharpen an existing edge. The real problem for me is when I hog. That is when I would save a lot of time holding the blank in a clamp and letting it get really hot. That is when I must behave and not dunk the glowing cutter in water. I actually would not need an elaborate fixture, just something to protect my fingers. I still would want to do my final grinding at a much lower temperature. Thanks for the good info! Rick ------- Re: Grinding BIts Posted by: "Robert Hyland" roberthylandx~xxcomcast.net Date: Mon Sep 5, 2011 7:42 am ((PDT)) DW: A tip that I use when free handing HSS or carbide tool bits on a wheel. File a groove in both the upper and lower holding face of the vice grip, trying to get approximately the same radius as the tool bit you are holding. That keeps it from rotating in the flat jaws, and gives you finer control of the angles which you are feeding the bit to the wheel. Robert in Tacoma ------- Re: Grinding BIts Posted by: "James Walther" indianfourriderx~xxyahoo.com Date: Mon Sep 5, 2011 4:44 pm ((PDT)) Great thread! I use the straight toolholder from my lantern toolpost to hold HSS blanks when grinding if it's anything more than a quick touch-up. ------- Re: Grinding BIts Posted by: "dws" dwshelfx~xxyahoo.com Date: Mon Sep 5, 2011 7:30 am ((PDT)) Thanks for the great insight. Indeed, the wheel I have been using is almost certainly too fine/hard. Is this the kind of thing which can be reduced to numbers? Is there an ideal (grit,grade) for grinding HSS lathe bits? Or maybe a set of functional grit/grade pairs? With regards to SC loading up. Putting things together, I realize that my SC wheel is not loading up on HSS because it is emitting dust as it grinds. The AO wheel does load up. I dress it with a diamond rectangle gizmo which works well and fast, but I've probably not done that frequently enough. Lastly, a "long push" need not be hard, although now I realize that mine have probably been too hard. The real intent is to grind an entire clean face on one push, as compared to backing off to cool. Thanks again everyone. Off to investigate a more appropriate wheel. dw ------- Re: Grinding BIts Posted by: "jerdalx~xxsbcglobal.net" Date: Mon Sep 5, 2011 9:19 pm ((PDT)) The coloration varies more than the code does. There is an industry code, and in the code is a letter for "grade", or friability. A book example from an old Norton brochure ... 32A46-H8VG First is type -- the 32 is a Norton number code for style/type A is for aluminum oxide 46 is the grit size H is the "grade" or hardness. A is soft, Z very hard 8 is a "structure number" designating details of the bond material 0 is dense, 12 open V is a "vitrified" bond G is a Norton code Carborundum Corp recommend an "O" grade and 36 grit for roughing lathe tools, an "L" grade and 60 grit for finish grinding. Both with a "6" structure. JT ------- NOTE TO FILE: The following posting from Rick Sparber is equally useful for metal lathes and metal shapers. While on his site, check out his other very extensive how-to machining articles. Each article was assembled and refined with lots of input from other folks in these groups. Good stuff. ------- new article: A Tiny Shear Grind Bit [Metal_Shapers] Posted by: "RG Sparber" rgsparberx~xxaol.com Date: Sun Nov 20, 2011 5:06 am ((PST)) This "Shear Grind Bit" was apparently invented by Henry D. Burghart. It is a shaper and lathe cutter which I have ground from High Speed Steel and produces an excellent finish. The cutter presented here is 0.075" wide yet is sturdy. If you are interested, please see http://rick.sparber.org/sgb.pdf Your comments and questions are always welcome. All of us are smarter than any one of us. Rick ------- Re: new article: A Tiny Shear Grind Bit Posted by: "Doc" n8as1x~xxaol.com docn8as Date: Sun Nov 20, 2011 2:47 pm ((PST)) hi Rick This “Shear Grind Bit” was apparently invented by Henry D. Burghart ??? not quite ....maybe first widely published, since so many copies were sold BUT advanced machine work ---smith (my 1925 copy) has original copywrite date of 1910 which predates the earliest 1921 burghardt date PLUS the tool labeled "shear" is a twisted forged tool (in the planer section)...wud predate general use of tool bits..i haven't checked my "rose" book from 40 yrs earlier, but wud not be surprised to see it there also ..the reason it is near unknown today is cause industrially, a piece goes right to the grinder for finishing, & 100yrs ago 2-3 thou was left for filing & emery. (which in some measure affected truth) ...when a finished true surface was desired (rare) a shear grind bit was used....in HSM use, we near always want a fine finished surface w/out grinding. hence its value. re advanced machine work ....expensive & worth every nickel ...my original has IIRC around 1400 + pages ..lindsey made copies for $30t....for those who don't know, near EVERY proceedure you will ever attempt is in there ...in lesson form for the unknowledgeable ....A,B,C,D, ......better yet the methods & "dodges" are more applicable for HSM than current texts viz, don't have a hydraulic press? get a heavy hammer.......mohltrect has good info & some techniques missing form 75 yr old texts, BUT the pics of machines & the proceedures are geared for the student entering the industrial complex TODAY, NOT the guy stumbling along in his garage trying to figure out how to get it done w/ what he has....the beginning & intermediate, at least, HSM, is back in the 20's & 30's w/ same equipment & methods (scrounging, scrap diving .....) my indispensible library contains machine tool operation -burghardt vol 1& 2, ..advanced machine work - smith, audels toolmakers handy book, craftsman how to run a lathe (my first two texts), & 1920's edition american machinist handbook. (easier & quicker to find what i need than my 26th edition of machinerys handbook ... $50 that i wud like to have back).........many other ancillary texts of value, for general knowledge, but the first two above are the real "meat" & are still frequently referred to in another life, a gunsmith guru told me that i shud have a book for every gun i accumulated..i think more so for machine tools ..... FWIW ..one chapter af advanced machine work is titled TOOL MAKING ... & it is VALUABLE if one wants to do so ....gages, reamers, taps, dies, drills, counter bores, etc ..again very thoro. FWIW #2 ...i have a lathe tool holder for 9/32 square tool bits, dated 1866...Stanly & someone else......i had previously thot that holders & bits appeared w/ high speed tools around 1900 due to the high cost for proprietary high speed steel ......any info abt this holder wud be gratefully accepted. best wishes docn8as ------- Re: new article: A Tiny Shear Grind Bit Posted by: "RG Sparber" rgsparberx~xxaol.com Date: Sun Nov 20, 2011 4:11 pm ((PST)) Doc: Thanks for the “world tour” of great books. My friend Neil who is both a machinist and woodworker told me that the shear cutter is common in woodworking. So it is likely that it was invented way before metal working became popular. I’ve updated the article to reflect this new bit of history plus mentioned that using round HSS makes it easier to adjust the attack angle. Rick ------- Re: new article: A Tiny Shear Grind Bit Posted by: "Matthew Tinker" mattinkerx~xxyahoo.com Date: Sun Nov 20, 2011 4:57 pm ((PST)) Rick and Doc, having seen the shaper and lathe application, I plan to try it on a fly cutter if only I can get away from work on earning my living for a while! Single point tooling rocks! Regards, Matthew Matthew TINKER CNC conversion 1944 Colchester Lathe build-up log ------- Re: noob back rake question [atlas618lathe] Posted by: "Dennis" neptune769x~xxgt.rr.com Date: Tue Feb 14, 2012 2:49 pm ((PST)) "oliedsl411" wrote: > I've read several texts regarding tool grinding that show X amount > of back rake, side relief, etc. There seems to be none of this on > indexable inserts used on a QCTP. Am I missing something? Hi, When I was a machinist about 15 years ago I very seldom put a top rake on my tool bits I ground myself. I cut primarily Aluminum, Delrin & 304 Stainless. I would hone the cutting edge and top with a honing stone. I found that when I did put a top rake on my tool it wouldn't cut as well. I also never put a sharp point on the tool. The only time I put a point is when the part required a sharp corner. If you grind your own. Make sure you don't burn the tip. It will wear out faster. Now that I have a lathe again (although still no motor) I'll be grinding cutting tools again. Regards, Dennis ------- Re: Drill mills [taigtools] Posted by: "Martin Dobbins" trainnutzx~xxyahoo.com Date: Mon Jul 9, 2012 8:29 am ((PDT)) Paul J. Ste. Marie wrote: >I've been translating British "slot drill" as American "drill mill" Since I am a Brit I can tell you he almost certainly does mean "two flute center cutting end mill" not "drill mill" >I don't think the roughers would do well in a blind slot, and I'd want >to use something like a 3/16" one for a 5/16" slot. You might need to drill a blind starter hole if your rougher is not center cutting, but you won't know unless you try. You want 1/16th of an inch for clean up, really? http://www.mcmaster.com/#end-mills/=iby7bk part number 8819A31 and you can probably get them less expensively elsewhere. Is the following discussion any help? http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net/showthread.php?t=36148 Martin ------- Re: Drill mills Posted by: "Paul J. Ste. Marie" taigx~xxste-marie.org Date: Mon Jul 9, 2012 12:58 pm ((PDT)) On 7/9/2012 8:29 AM, Martin Dobbins wrote: > Since I am a Brit I can tell you he almost certainly does mean "two > flute center cutting end mill" not "drill mill" Ah. Thanks! > You want 1/16th of an inch for clean up, really? I'm been stopping with the roughers between 0.025" and 0.050" short of the final dimension. Always easier to remove more metal than put it back on. In a production environment, pushing that closer to the limit makes more sense. > http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net/showthread.php?t=36148 Yes, that very much matches my observations. I haven't posted the pictures of the upper arm separator yet, but 95% of the material was removed with the rougher, followed by a few passes with a regular end mill to bring it to final dimension and clean up the finish. ------- Roughers [taigtools] [Original topic was "Drill mills"] Posted by: "Paul J. Ste. Marie" taigx~xxste-marie.org Date: Wed Jul 11, 2012 4:16 pm ((PDT)) Based on some comments in an earlier thread, I actually measured (courtesy of some Dykem) just how much cleanup a rougher requires. I was quite surprised that taking off only 0.010" with a conventional mill completely smoothed out the surface. From the size of the teeth and the visual appearance of the surface I would have guessed much more than that would have been required. Less wear and tear on conventional end mills and less evil swarf from hell is a very good thing. ------- Re: Roughers Posted by: "Martin Dobbins" trainnutzx~xxyahoo.com Date: Wed Jul 11, 2012 4:51 pm ((PDT)) I thought you might be being a little generous with an allowance of 1/16th of an inch clearance but, as you said, you can't put it back again after you've taken it off. I'm sure that you have realized that your new best friends come in a variety of shapes and sizes and also fine tooth and coarse tooth varieties? Ideal for a mill of this size they will rip surprising amounts of tough stuff up with little demand on horsepower. Fly cutters are also nice, the American Carbide tipped tool that you found gets the best results happens to be the one that Sherline supplies as standard with one of their flycutters; http://www.sherline.com/images/3052pic.jpg If you're in the mood (and have the time!) to play copycat, this one is a cracker: http://www.sherline.com/images/7620pic.jpg Regards, Martin ------- Re: Roughers Posted by: "Ken Cline" clinex~xxfrii.com Date: Wed Jul 11, 2012 6:23 pm ((PDT)) I've use a "Rougher-Finisher Chipbreaker Style" end mill from Monster Tool http://www.monstertool.com/ProductData/3FL_Rougher-Finisher_Chipbre aker_Style_Bullnose.html These have overlapping teeth that produce a "fairly smooth" part finish. Any idea how these compare to standard roughers? This type of end mill should leave much less than .001" of roughness, but your actual finish will vary under load due to the Taig's relatively low rigidity. ------- Re: Roughers Posted by: "Martin Dobbins" trainnutzx~xxyahoo.com Date: Wed Jul 11, 2012 9:36 pm ((PDT)) Hi Ken, I'll bet you could get equal or better results with a Cobalt or HSS rougher and it would probably be less expensive than a quality carbide rougher. HSS (Cobalt is just HSS with a higher percentage of cobalt) is sharper than carbide and sharp tools are kinder to lighter machines. Your experience may vary, however, and only you can tell us if you decide to try a comparison. I tend to steer clear of carbide because of feed and speed requirements to get the best out of them; fly cutters are an exception in that the forces on the machine are different and feed rates don't need to be so high. Martin ------- Re: Roughers Posted by: "Pierre Coueffin" pcoueffinx~xxgmail.com Date: Wed Jul 11, 2012 10:38 pm ((PDT)) Also, I find that carbide chips fast if you give it positive rake and an interrupted cut... which I do a lot. Gets expensive. ------- Re: Roughers Posted by: "Paul J. Ste. Marie" taigx~xxste-marie.org Date: Wed Jul 11, 2012 10:42 pm ((PDT)) On 7/11/2012, Martin Dobbins wrote: > I'm sure that you have realized that your new best friends come in a > variety of shapes and sizes and also fine tooth and coarse tooth > varieties? Yeah, I've been slowly building up an assortment. They seem to get along very well with the Taig -- not much downward pull, which seems to be the Taig's biggest weakness. > If you're in the mood (and have the time!) to play copycat, this one > is a cracker: > http://www.sherline.com/images/7620pic.jpg The body looks easy enough to turn out of a piece of 12L14. How complicated is the seat for the insert? ------- Re: Roughers Posted by: "ED MAISEY" holmes_ca_2000x~xxyahoo.com Date: Wed Jul 11, 2012 11:00 pm ((PDT)) HSS -- I find it's so easy to grind a special shape for a particular form and it just takes a quick touch on the bench grinder and it's razor sharp again. It takes a lot of grinding before I have to throw one out as scrap; haven't done so yet in 50 years, got a long lineup of them on the shelf, all different forms, just choose one and continue on. Most are hss Momax, ideal for hobby work and building small parts on a Taig. Edmund ------- Re: Roughers Posted by: "Martin Dobbins" trainnutzx~xxyahoo.com Date: Thu Jul 12, 2012 12:13 pm ((PDT)) >The body looks easy enough to turn out of a piece of 12L14. How >complicated is the seat for the insert? The complicated part would be getting the right Torx screw to hold the insert and tapping a hole for it, you really need to have the insert and fixing screw in hand before starting. Although I don't dislike carbide for fly cutters, the points that Pierre and Edmund made are very good ones and you will get a nicer finish and better results in 1018 (and harder materials) with HSS tools. For a fly cutter you are using a left hand lathe tool (cutting edge is on the right as you look down on it and it cuts towards the tailstock-some people have different conventions) so if you have a tool that cuts very well on the lathe, you are at least half way to having a decent fly cutter. Even that is different for small machines and as I was searching for words to describe that, in true Internet fashion I found a link that describes it all with pictures: http://www.machinistblog.com/grinding-lathe-tools-on-a-belt-sander/ Martin ------- Re: Roughers Posted by: "ED MAISEY" holmes_ca_2000x~xxyahoo.com Date: Thu Jul 12, 2012 6:23 pm ((PDT)) Martin it amazes me, but then most learn eventually, I'm 76 and and still learning, never occurred to me to try sharpening toolbits on the sander. I'm going to try it out, Thanks for posting that link, that should be saved in the groups links file. Edmund ------- Re: Roughers Posted by: "Martin Dobbins" trainnutzx~xxyahoo.com Date: Thu Jul 12, 2012 7:42 pm ((PDT)) Edmund, I've never tried sharpening toolbits on a belt sander either, but I thought that should there be a mishap at least it might only be a busted belt that you have to duck rather than several pieces of grinding wheel. I just got hold of a cheap 1X30 belt sander from Harbor Fright (no that's not a misprint) with a view to seeing if I could correct the mistakes from the factory and then put it to work. I'll have a go at sharpening toolbits with it and if that doesn't work at least I might be able to use it for finishing parts instead of the current elbow grease. By the way, there are three parts to that article in case you didn't realize, he goes through what changes are needed to make the belt sander into a tool sharpener, what belts to use and how to prep the belts. Martin ------- Re: Roughers Posted by: "ED MAISEY" holmes_ca_2000x~xxyahoo.com Date: Thu Jul 12, 2012 8:00 pm ((PDT)) Martin, if you haven't had a belt sander up to now, I'm sure you will wonder why you didn't get it years ago. I bought mine (Taiwanese) many years ago, best buy I ever made, $125.00 42in belt. I made a QC set for the Taig; all the holders were finished on the sander even the chamfers, very quick, finish looked as though it was chromed; just need a container of water close by. The steel gets hot. Still using the same belt for deburring regular stuff. I will recheck that link about sharpening bits. thanks again Edmund ------ Re: Roughers Posted by: "Martin Dobbins" trainnutzx~xxyahoo.com Date: Thu Jul 12, 2012 8:10 pm ((PDT)) Hi Edmund, Here are the links to part two and three: http://www.machinistblog.com/grinding-lathe-tools-on-a-belt-sander-part-2/ http://www.machinistblog.com/grinding-lathe-tools-on-a-belt-sander-part-3/ Regards, Martin ------- NOTE TO FILE: The thread then wanders off subject but no one changes the thread title. No wonder it is difficult to find stuff in the archives when doing a search for a specific topic. ------- jig for grinding small lathe tools [taigtools] Posted by: "LuisN" noblelux~xxprodigy.net.mx Date: Wed Sep 5, 2012 6:31 pm ((PDT)) Good afternoon: I just uploaded photos of a small jig to grind my taig lathe tools; I made it for 1/4 inch tools but it can be made for others. With this, I can grind tools with different configurations and angles. It is easy to make and use. The jig has a barrel to mount the tool, and the block to contain the barrel; both barrel and block can be rotated to any angle. The block has 10 degree graduations. I made some tools with 1-3 deg error. I use the Taig mill to grind (using a small grinding wheel mounted in an arbor), but I think it can be used in a drill press also. I made this because I was unable to grind tools by hand, maybe the jig can be useful for others. Please see album named "Noble". Best Regards Luis ------- Re: jig for grinding small lathe tools Posted by: "Shawn Woolley" shawnwoolleyx~xxmac.com Date: Wed Sep 5, 2012 8:52 pm ((PDT)) Very cool. Is that made out of Delrin or ??? Very cool and looks like you could get very repeatable results with just a bit of practice. ------- Re: jig for grinding small lathe tools Posted by: "Luis Noble Green" noblelux~xxprodigy.net.mx Date: Thu Sep 6, 2012 8:32 am ((PDT)) Yes, it is made of delrin. You can also make permanent marks for specific angles, and this assure equal angles each time. Also, I made 10 deg divisions, but with 5 deg divisions the error will be less; the marks will need to be thinner. The error will be less than half the space between marks. Luis Noble Green ------- Re: jig for grinding small lathe tools Posted by: "Pierre Coueffin" pcoueffinx~xxgmail.com Date: Thu Sep 6, 2012 8:47 am ((PDT)) If you decide to try using it on the drill press, I'd be tempted to turn it 90 degrees and copy this "cup wheel" substitute. http://toolingaround.ca/ltsj.html It should give dead-flat surfaces, and uses very cheap diamond disks. ------- Re: jig for grinding small lathe tools Posted by: "WAM" ajawam2x~xxcomcast.net Date: Thu Sep 6, 2012 5:32 am ((PDT)) I have to say, I'm using an asian Deckel SO clone: http://home.comcast.net/~ajawam3/swarf/DSCN2505.JPG I made some 3/4" collet inserts for holding 1/4 and 5/16 lathe tools. Works really well. Just did an endmill with it; did a great job on that too. Had to mod it a bit to get the gash. ------- Re: jig for grinding small lathe tools Posted by: "Luis Noble Green" noblelux~xxprodigy.net.mx Date: Fri Sep 7, 2012 7:59 am ((PDT)) Robert: I do not know if you want drawings on this, I can upload drawings, if you want. The dimensions may vary a lot depending on particular needs, but my dimensions can be a good start. The only part that need special care is the angle scale, but I know that misumi (http://us.misumi-ec.com/us/ItemDetail/10300260770.html) and others sell this angle scale with adhesive in back. Best Regards Luis Noble Green ------- Re: jig for grinding small lathe tools Posted by: "Pierre Coueffin" pcoueffinx~xxgmail.com Date: Fri Sep 7, 2012 8:39 am ((PDT)) It had never occurred to me to order an adhesive backed protractor. That will be handy on many future projects! In the past, I've epoxied a small protractor purchased at the dollar store onto projects. With a suitable pointer, it works quite well. ------- Re: jig for grinding small lathe tools Posted by: "Don" Donx~xxCampbell-Gemstones.com Date: Fri Sep 7, 2012 12:21 pm ((PDT)) Luis, I have been mulling over a way to use one of my faceting machines for a tool sharpener. You just gave me the answer. The faceting machine uses different geared ratchet gears to locate the facets. A 96 tooth gear is one commonly used, which would give 3 3/4 degree increments. They are inexpensive and could easily be adapted to your holder. I'll post a photo of the faceting machine head and gear for some ideas. The folder is Don's faceting head. I've been toying with this idea for over a year now. If I mix my idea with yours, it should work well. The faceting machine base has a horizontal diamond lap of 6" D. I have some laps from 100 up to 3000 that are contaminated so I can't use them for gems stones, but for sharpening and polishing tools they will be just fine. Could you post a photo of the nose of your tool, the bit holder? Don ------- Re: jig for grinding small lathe tools Posted by: "Don" Donx~xxCampbell-Gemstones.com Date: Sat Sep 8, 2012 12:13 pm ((PDT)) One correction, the index gears are no longer inexpensive. I used to sell them new for around $10 and they are selling used on Ebay for $20 now. The gears would be easy to make though, there they are not involute teeth but just V notches. Don ------- Re: jig for grinding small lathe tools Posted by: "Pierre Coueffin" pcoueffinx~xxgmail.com Date: Sat Sep 8, 2012 1:13 pm ((PDT)) You could also get away with a paper disc with laser-printed markings on it, if you had a pointer and some way to lock the spindle. I do this when I don't have a particular wheel for my dividing lash-up. Just glue- stick the paper to a plate of some sort. ------- free hand endmill sharpening [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: "Doc" n8as1x~xxaol.com docn8as Date: Mon Oct 15, 2012 8:09 pm ((PDT)) FWIW ... while using the only very long endmill i had in making a 6 inch vise handle, it became too dull to use ....the 1912 tool & cutter grinder was set up for sharpening gear cutters, & it is time consuming tearing down a setup & reconfiguring, particularly frustrating for ONE endmill rather than a 1/2 dozen of the same size, plus remembering what i have to be doing every 8 or 10 months between usage .....after a choice word or two, i remembered frank (?) mclean writing that in an emergency a 2 lip endmill cud be freehand sharpened ......since i hand grind my drills, i went to the grinder....before starting it up I positioned one lip slightly off square so the outer edge wud be longer & oriented the flute horizontal & slightly above the center of the wheel ...there are calculations for how far above vs degree relief, but of little matter here...i backed the flute away slightly, & started the grinder. pressed against the wheel & counted 1,2,..rotated 180 deg & did the same.... easier than sharpening a drill. now suppose one flute is 10 thou longer ...if the doc [depth of cut] is less, only one flute will cut ...so what? slow the feed rate ...single flute cutters work fine .... when that one flute dulls, the other will work...if doc is more than 10 thou, both will cut ....now suppose the relief is excessive ...well, it will dull sooner & on the next grind, you can correct the angle. the original grind becoming the secondary relief ....unlikely there will be too little relief, but if so, repeat a tad higher up from center of the wheel. the result was the end mill worked well, better than when i started. best wishes docn8as ------- Bits and where to buy [taigtools] Posted by: "Max Cato" maxsthekatx~xxyahoo.com Date: Thu Nov 1, 2012 10:33 pm ((PDT)) Hi guys! So, I have my new (used) little Taig cnc, and since it's my first cnc, I'm incredibly excited about it. But, being a complete newbie to this, I'm curious, what bits should I get for starters? Who is a good dealer for bits? I'm hoping to eventually do some milling on aluminum, but for now, I'm happy to tinker on cheaper stuff, like wood and wax. Thanks! Max ------- Re: Bits and where to buy Posted by: "ED MAISEY" holmes_ca_2000x~xxyahoo.com Date: Thu Nov 1, 2012 11:25 pm ((PDT)) Max, contact Nick Carter http://www.cartertools.com/ Edmund ------- Re: Bits and where to buy Posted by: "Ken Cline" clinex~xxfrii.com Date: Thu Nov 1, 2012 11:57 pm ((PDT)) Congratulations and welcome! You could buy a box of multipurpose rotozip bits (XB-MP2 - 5/32) and going to town on some wood. I was surprised at the quality of cut one gets using these very inexpensive bits when driven by a good machine. My two most reached for cutters are 2-flute carbide end mills in 1/8" and 1/4" (stay away from 4-flute for aluminum), but others will have their own favorite tools. Cutting Edge Tool Supply [http://www.cetsonline.com/] has treated me well and carries high quality surplus carbide at good prices as well as being a full service machine tool supplier. McMaster Carr sells just about everything you need. Little Machine Shop has some items for our small machines that the big suppliers may not carry. And as Ed mentioned let's not forget our own Nick Carter. Stub length (a.k.a. screw machine) drill bits are very handy with the Taig mill. ------- Newbie question - shims for packing tool height [myfordlathes] Posted by: "garthn444" garthnx~xxpbt.co.za Date: Mon Dec 3, 2012 11:52 pm ((PST)) Hi. What do people use for shims? I don't have a quick change tool post yet - still the old ML7 holder. So I would need to pack accurately. I don't have a mill etc - so can't accurately make pieces the correct thickness. ------- Re: Newbie question - shims for packing tool height Posted by: "nigel" nigelx~xxnigelheasman.com Date: Tue Dec 4, 2012 12:21 am ((PST)) Hi,like you I still use the original ML7 tool holder and have a tobacco tin full of bits of packing, collected over the years! However, I'm slowly moving over to tools with replaceable tips from Greenwood Tools ( http://www.greenwood-tools.co.uk/ ) and, although they are a bit expensive, they are truly life changing!! Parting off, for example, is now a pleasure rather than stressful! One major advantage is that each tool can be kept with its appropriate packing and, when the tip needs replacing, the packing remains the same. I also find the replaceable tips are very hard wearing and retain their sharpness for a long time. I'm only a "hobby" machinist (building a 5" gauge Simplex) and have only replaced one tip so far, in 6 months. Christmas is coming - maybe dropping a few hints will bring you one of them! I expect some folk will say that regrinding your own tool tip, when required, is the best way but that often brings with it the need for packing changes, as you are experiencing I guess. Needless to say, I have no connection with Greenwood Tools, apart from being a very satisfied customer - their service is brilliant. Hope this helps, Nigel ------- Re: Newbie question - shims for packing tool height Posted by: "Rodney Gentry" rgent14x~xxhotmail.com Date: Tue Dec 4, 2012 12:30 am ((PST)) I use a cheap kit of feeler gauges, any combinations thereof. ------- Re: Newbie question - shims for packing tool height Posted by: "Bob Hamilton" bobx~xxhamilton-bob.freeserve.co.uk Date: Tue Dec 4, 2012 1:48 am ((PST)) I tend to think that you are possibly a little too anxious over tool height, although the smaller the diameter of the work piece the nearer to centre that you will need to be. Obviously facing off requires dead centre, but in general I tend to go a touch under for outside diameters and a touch up above centre for boring. As for packing, well anything that you can get. For thin stuff -- old hacksaw blades with the teeth ground off, metal packing strapping, or just bits of tin can. For thicker stuff then again whatever you have access to. I have 1/8" flat strip steel. Any combination that gets you what you need. I have used paper to pack up jobs a minute amount on boring machines, so I suppose that would be possible for cutter packing too. I have lots of old sets of feeler gauges, you know, the ones that you can no longer see the sizes on -- what a great idea that is. I would never consider making accurately sized packing -- unless you are using modern "throw away tips" where the height will not alter due to grinding the tool. Horses for courses as they say Bob ------- Re: Newbie question - shims for packing tool height Posted by: "Cliff Coggin" clifford.cogginx~xxvirgin.net Date: Tue Dec 4, 2012 4:37 am ((PST)) Unfortunately, as soon as you sharpen the tool, which naturally should be done often, the height of the cutting edge is reduced so it will need to be re-shimmed. Cliff Coggin Kent UK ------- Re: Newbie question - shims for packing tool height Posted by: "Edmund" wiggyracing2009x~xxtalktalk.net Date: Tue Dec 4, 2012 1:55 am ((PST)) Having spent nearly 25 years in the Printing Trade, I used what I had. Offset Lithographic Printing plates, readily available from your friendly local Printer. These high grade alloy sheets, usually between .010" & .025" thick, dependant on which Press they've come from, normally go for scrap/recycling once finished with. Easily cutable with an old pair of scissors. Handy, between two bits of steel, for fine tuning that Tool height. ------- Re: Newbie question - shims for packing tool height Posted by: "alighazizadeh" alighazizadehx~xxaol.com Date: Tue Dec 4, 2012 2:11 am ((PST)) Hi, Depends on what size tool you are using, if it's 3/8" then you only need to shim it a little, I use 0.1 mm thick brass sheet for this. It can be cut by a pair of sharp scissors. If you are using smaller sizes then you need to use thicker material, either Aluminium or Brass. Not having a mill doesn't matter if you determine how much packing you need, find a piece of material as close to the size then you need and then file it flat down down to size. If I may give you a piece of advice, once you have correctly shimmed the tool remove the tool and the shim, clean then thoroughly and then glue the shim to the tool. This way if you remove the tool you can always put it back on with the correct packing attached. Regards, A.G. ------- Re: sharpening mill bits [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: "Doc" n8as1x~xxaol.com docn8as Date: Tue Mar 26, 2013 2:50 pm ((PDT)) Mar 26, 2013 warrengrant wrote: > I just purchased a surface grinder and am wanting to set up a jig to sharpen mill bits. I not there are several different ones and am not sure it's worth it. Maybe it's cheaper to send them off and have them sharpened. Does anyone have any experience in using a surface grinder to sharpen mill bits and what am I going to run into I note that it mentions 5C collets. Since I don't have 5C collets do I have to buy this jig and what about instructions to use it? AS you can tell I'm lost here. Any help would be appreciated. Also does anyone have recommendations as to who is the best and cheapest for sharpening mill bits? < there are only 3 reasons for sharpening your own endmills ...you WANT to do it (& that is valid), special grinds, & you are just too penurious ... oops that goes under #1.... TIME consuming ...best done in batches of same size /type mills...these jigs are only for sharpening end teeth, which if you can grind your own drills, you can grind a TWO lip mill ADEQUATELY, just pay attention to angles & count the "touching" (if one lip is a tad long, as soon as it dulls, the other one will cut ..try it ..you have nothing to lose..make sure the lips are longer at the circumference ....check w/ a steel rule) ...you may need to adjust feed w/ one lip cutting. there are jigs that use bushings, but cheap china 5C 's are under $5 ea last time i looked,& will do. you can also make your own jig ...mill some angles on the bottom & index detends on the spindle.....somewhere i have a shop made one that uses a jacobs chuck to hold the mill. best wishes doc ------- Re: sharpening mill bits Posted by: "David" daveinnmix~xxyahoo.com Date: Wed Mar 27, 2013 7:21 am ((PDT)) You can see what I made to sharpen end mills and horizontal milling cutters using a Foley Sharp-All. Go to the picture section of the Gingery Yahoo group and my folder is labeled DaveInMI ------- vertical sheer tool! [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: "Rick Sparber" rgsparberx~xxaol.com Date: Tue Aug 6, 2013 12:02 pm ((PDT)) I was on YouTube looking for a better understanding of chip breakers. I ran across this excellent video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sFnTXgXMbrQ Much of the video is dedicated to a vertical sheer tool which has amazing performance. You have to look closely to see that the cutting edge is almost vertical, not horizontal. Rick ------- Re: vertical sheer tool! Posted by: ecombs2x~xxcinci.rr.com mrflashlite54 Date: Tue Aug 6, 2013 7:57 pm ((PDT)) Rick thanks for the you tube link, I am going to grind one of these tools and give it a try. Ed C. ------- Re: vertical sheer tool! Posted by: "Rick Sparber" rgsparberx~xxaol.com Date: Tue Aug 6, 2013 8:29 pm ((PDT)) One of the comments said that the maximum depth of cut should be .001" for that vertical sheer tool. Hey Doc, you are the sheer tool expert, what do you say? Furthermore, could it be used on a shaper? Rick ------- Re: vertical sheer tool! Posted by: "Doc" n8as1x~xxaol.com docn8as Date: Wed Aug 7, 2013 3:52 pm ((PDT)) hi Rick they say an expert is a guy w' a brief case at least 10 miles from home have not seen the full video yet but the shear grind bit was originally used on the planer AND the shaper (burghard -machine tool operation 1923) ...recommended doc was three thou or less..in 1018 steel ..using a full round point bit of 3-4 in RADIUS w/ hardly any back rake, front & side clearance, & of course no side rake ....my best results were after a finishing cut was first taken .....on the shaper / my smoothest cuts were w/ abt a 60 deg angle .w/ .005 feed ..w/ care i can get a reflective finish (no it's not a mirror) that requires no more attention for a standard factory finish ...very superior to a milled finish ....appears surface ground... i also use a bit of this type on the lathe ...because of the shearing action, it cuts across & takes out the feed lines of the sharp OR rounded bit (the ususal round point is too small to cross the feed lines w/ a LIGHT cut ...a regular 1/32 flat point works better, but a shear grind is the best)...very important for the best finish on a lathe is a previous finish cut to remove the lands/ valleys from the flexing of a heavy cut in addition to the "threading" from pointed tools... on the lathe, tool application is not critical ...anywhere along the face ...tool angle can be from 75 deg to 45 deg depending on cut & material ..i usually set it at 60-65 deg... an easy way to experiment is to use a round bit or hardened drill rod, set in your boring bar holder & applied at rt angles to the center line ...just grind round bit of abt 3 in RADIUS w/ slight back rake & front & side clearance ....(I reckon a full width flat face wud work as well on a lathe)..then you can set the bit at whatever angle best suits ... on the square bit it is more difficult to visualize & grind & then it is nonadjustable.....after you decide the best angle, then one can grind the square bit. FWIW you can use form ttools such as a 3 in radius round point bit w/ plunge cuts on the light lathes if you use a very flexible gooseneck holder ...no need to go in back gear... for instance, if you need to work on centers & have a chuck on the spindle, you can put a shouldered bar in the chuck, set the compound for a 60 deg point & plunge cut the point from a one in bar w/ a GOOSENECK holder ... then drive the dog w/ the chuck jaw ......they are easy to make ....lautard's bedside reader vol 1 ? maybe 2 has a drawing ... i have been touting the shear bit for years, as well as grinding a parting tool w/ front to back clearance & a V in the face to grate the chip in pieces to allow it to clear better, in addition to the factory clearances (sometimes felt like i was "crying in the wilderness"..).. maybe this video will convince more to utilize them. FWIW #2 i know it is heresy, but on 1018 steel ..using a parting tool as described particularly w. a V ground in the face, i have been using a flex (gooseneck) tool holder in a solid block tool post, & experimenting w/ parting off W/OUT fluid ...so far no jam ups ..chips are ground up.... haven't tried to in steel yet but sure is less MESSY. best wishes, doc ------- [atlas_craftsman] adding a chip breaker to a Diamond tangential cutter tool Posted by: "Rick Sparber" rgsparberx~xxaol.com Date: Wed Aug 7, 2013 5:57 am ((PDT)) After watching the video I listed yesterday, I cut a chip breaker into my Diamond tangential cutter tool. Good news/bad news. The good news was that it was easy to cut and worked very well. The bad news came when the scrap I was cutting broke loose from the chuck. Normally, the shock would have pushed the cutter down in the Diamond tool holder. Instead, it broke off the tip and split away about 3/8" of the flank of the HSS tool. Remember, the tangential cutter has the tool almost vertical. I plan to try cutting another chip breaker in a tangential cutter again today but must first form a new cutter. From the video I learned that the basic idea of the chip breaker is to have a curved surface behind the cutting edge for the chip to flow. After curving down for maybe 25 thou (?), there is a vertical wall. The chip feeds into this wall and breaks off rather than crowding. If it was to crowd, the cutter would just fill up with swarf. The problem is that the tip no longer has the support of the top of the cutter. I wonder what would happen if the curved part was much larger - maybe the full width of the top face of the cutter. Then the vertical wall could be a bit of steel clamped to it. Time to experiment! Rick ------- Re: adding a chip breaker to a Diamond tangential cutter tool Posted by: wa5cabx~xxcs.com wa5cab Date: Wed Aug 7, 2013 7:40 am ((PDT)) Some replacable carbide inserts have separate chip breakers. Robert Downs - Houston wa5cab dot com (Web Store) MVPA 9480 ------- Re: adding a chip breaker to a Diamond tangential cutter tool Posted by: "Doc" n8as1x~xxaol.com docn8as Date: Wed Aug 7, 2013 3:52 pm ((PDT)) Rick ...i have seen pics of a chip breaker that was clamped to the top of the tool bit ..iirc, there was NO groove ground in the bit & it MAY have been a carbide bit, thinking the pic was 40-50- yrs old ..the chip breaker appeared to be part of the side slot solid tool holder .... did not look to be home shop either. doc ------- Re: adding a chip breaker to a Diamond tangential cutter tool Posted by: "Rick Sparber" rgsparberx~xxaol.com Date: Thu Aug 8, 2013 7:08 am ((PDT)) Doc, Although far from perfect and certain “cheesy”, I do now have a functioning external chip breaker on my tangential cutter. There is no substitute for watching the chips flow to see where a chip breaker needs to be positioned. Furthermore, there is no substitute for dumb luck! It makes so much sense to me to put the chip breaker in the tool holder and not in the cutter. Thanks, Rick ------- [atlas_craftsman] new article: An Experimental Chip Breaker for a Tangential Cutter Posted by: "Rick Sparber" rgsparberx~xxaol.com rgsparber Date: Wed Aug 7, 2013 5:28 pm ((PDT)) My favorite lathe attachments are my left hand and right hand Diamond Tool Holders. They use High Speed Steel which is very easy to sharpen. Yet there was one really annoying problem: no chip breakers. When doing heavy cuts, the swarf would either shoot off in long coils or ball up around the cutter. I've been searching for a chip breaker for a few years. Well, today might be my lucky day. I may have stumbled into a design that actually works. This chip breaker wraps around the back side of the cutter rather than requiring a second grind which greatly weakens the point. If you are interested, please see this short article which also contains URLs to YouTube videos demonstrating the tool holder both without and with the chip breaker. http://rick.sparber.org/ttcb.pdf If you own a Diamond Tool Holder, I hope you make one of these chip breakers and let us all know how it works under various conditions. Rick ------- [atlas_craftsman] Re: Wanted: resource re making cutting angles on tooling. Posted by: "Bruce ." freemab222x~xxgmail.com bakmthiscl Date: Tue Dec 17, 2013 8:41 am ((PST)) What I found most difficult about learning to grind lathe bits was that there was too much information out there! My suggestion is to skip as much of the instruction as possible and get people making tools -- out of mild steel! (Yes, I've said this before, but I think most people don't subscribe to my notion: You can cut a very effective tool from mild steel, providing the workpiece is soft, like 6061 aluminum. You will have to resharpen more frequently than with tool steel, but you can resharpen with a file!) The main advantage of using mild steel is that it is cheap, and the student won't be intimidated to get it right the first time: It simply doesn't matter if you screw up a few pennies' worth of mild steel stock! Now the other end of this is that there is MUCH too much complication out there for the beginner to comprehend. First of all, much of the information out there is for one-piece tools -- as opposed to the tool-bit holders most of us use. Then too, some tool-bit holders angle the tools and some do not, and the angles you need to grind to are completely different for the two different sorts of holders. Next, not all the features of the commercial tool bit are actually essential for it to do a very nice job of cutting metal. For example, the chip breaker is completely unnecessary if you're controlling the tool by hand (which I often do). The chip breaker breaks the strip of metal being removed from the workpiece so you don't get long, scrolling strips clogging up the works (or cutting up your hands, if you're turning steel). It's important in many cases, but not in all, and if you start the student by making bits without chip breakers, they'll soon learn what makes the chip breaker important. Even more elementary are the various relief angles. I really had trouble understanding this at first because the illustrations just didn't make sense to me. (This was odd because normally I'm quite good at envisioning 3D objects.) Eventually I caught on, but if I had to grind a bit to a spec right now, I'd probably really have to study it before I'd be sure of getting it right. OTOH, I've pulled a tool steel bit blank out of stock (the kind with the end cut off at maybe a 70* angle, rather than a right angle) and put it straight to work cutting 6061, without doing any grinding at all on it. If the corner is sharp and the bit does not rub the work, it cuts just fine. So why mess with all the grinding? Because in some cases, you must, in order to get clearance between the work and the bit. (You're not going to do much cutting if a flat of the bit is up against the workpiece.) What I'm saying is, start the student with minimally ground bits (of mild steel) and put them to work with them (on soft-metal workpieces). Next assign them a task that simply cannot be done with such a bit, and point out how they're going to have to refine the bit to be suitable to the task. All the best. Bruce NJ ------- Re: Wanted: resource re making cutting angles on tooling. Posted by: "Jim" jblake9042x~xxsuddenlink.net Date: Tue Dec 17, 2013 11:27 am ((PST)) Bruce, very good post. Right on the money. When dealing with beginners and novices in any en-diver requiring time to develop a skill the K.I.S.S principle is always the best route to success. JMHO jimb ------- Re: Wanted: resource re making cutting angles on tooling. Posted by: "Kevin Gibson" k3030aix~xxyahoo.com Date: Tue Dec 17, 2013 11:33 am ((PST)) Or you could make the tool out of something like 01 drill rod that is annealed, grind it how you like it and then heat treat it by heating the cutting edge to cherry red, then oil quench. Should give you a RC in the high 80's to low 90's. If worried about it being too brittle, you can then draw temper it, and there are a number of ways to do that; Machinery's Handbook has all the details. I use either the oil/smoke method, which is just to coat the part in oil and then torch it until all the oil burns off. Or you can use something like nitre bluing to heat it to a controlled temperature between 600-800 degrees. ------- Re: Wanted: resource re making cutting angles on tooling. Posted by: "Gene" gene_isley_7x~xxyahoo.com Date: Tue Dec 17, 2013 12:29 pm ((PST)) Reading the article discussing Harding steel. I make gun parts including springs. I heat sthe parts to a temp where the part loses magnetism, then quench in oil. To temper I throw the part in a lead pot of pure lead for 15 mins. This works well for me. Burning the part in oil works but neighbors don't like it. This method was used by old gun smiths. ------- Re: Wanted: resource re making cutting angles on tooling. Posted by: "Kevin Gibson" k3030aix~xxyahoo.com Date: Tue Dec 17, 2013 1:46 pm ((PST)) Yes lead is a good medium for draw tempering, just make sure it's well ventilated. You can use lead for temps up to just a tad over 1100f. The niter bluing salts I use can be picked up at any hardware store as Stump Killer, cheap and easy. But the pot of molten lead will do the same trick. Kevin ------- Re: Wanted: resource re making cutting angles on tooling. Posted by: "James Irwin" jirwin1x~xxaustin.rr.com Date: Tue Dec 17, 2013 4:45 pm ((PST)) The success of this method depends on the temperature of the lead in the pot. The most accurate home shop way to temper is to use colors. Color changes come at narrow bands and are not dependent on many variables at all. Polish the part, heat it in a clean blue flame from a propane torch until you just get the desired color. Then set aside to air cool. If you over-do it, just heat red again and do it again. Jim Irwin ------- Re: Wanted: resource re making cutting angles on tooling. Posted by: "Doc" n8as1x~xxaol.com docn8as Date: Tue Dec 17, 2013 10:55 pm ((PST)) fwiw ..not sure what you are drawing the temper on BUT if it is metal cutting tools, all my shop made chamber reamers, counterbores, taps, dies, milling cutters are made form O1 drill rod....hardened at cooked carrot color when the shadows disappear, quenched in 10 wt oil, or xmission fluid warmed, & drawn at 375 for an hour in the kitchen oven... warm up the oven to 375, put the part in for an hour, shut the heat & let it cool...none have fractured nor chipped in use. surface feet / min must be held to 1/2 that of high speed. w-1 drill rod, for metal use, shud be drawn at around 415 -20, (lite straw color). round parts are heated to harden in drill press at 200 rpm ...they heat even * oil in a can is brought up to quench while drill press is running ...parts have less than 1/2 the ususal warpage this way ....(be ready to blow out the flash flame ..) quenching shud be vertical ....i still keep a reamer that warped like a bananna when i quenched it horizontally ... just to remind me. best wishes doc PS back near 50 yrs ago when i made flat gun springs, the thin ones were drawn to a purple, the heavy ones to a blue color...used w-1 drill rod then. ------- Re: Wanted: resource re making cutting angles on tooling. Posted by: "Kevin Gibson" k3030aix~xxyahoo.com Date: Wed Dec 18, 2013 7:12 am ((PST)) I forgot to mention, after the first quench, if you're going to draw temper, you should polish the scale off to where the part is bright and shiny. Then do your draw tempering. Btw, the Nitre Blue is just pure potassium nitrate (salt peter)...sorry, couldn't remember that to save my life yesterday. I had a minor surgical procedure done yesterday and was on pain meds for a few hours. That stuff makes me even more forgetful than I already am:) Kevin ------- Cutting angles on lathe tool bits Posted by: stevewatrx~xxhotmail.com Date: Wed Dec 18, 2013 5:58 am ((PST)) Thought I'd share this. For those who have not seen his videos, there is a guy, a HS shop teacher on you tube called Mr Pete, aka Tubalcain. He has a lot of good videos, and this one in particular is about grinding tools. He uses some large models to help illustrate angles. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hrDr4rYLiAk Regards, Steve W. ------- Re: Wanted: resource re making cutting angles on tooling. Posted by: "Bruce ." freemab222x~xxgmail.com Date: Wed Dec 18, 2013 9:32 am ((PST)) I've recently rediscovered the "oil smoke method" too, but I'd describe it a bit differently: Heat the tool to red (i.e., to non-magnetic -- which indicates a phase change in the steel) and quench in oil to harden the piece. (Veggie oil works fine.) Now heat the piece near the torch or forge untill the it smoke and "flashes" (flames). Quench again in oil, and repeat the torching/quenching a total of three times. By re-quenching the flashed piece, you reduce the chances of overheating the item and losing the temper -- i.e., softening it too much. By repeating the flashing, you reduce the chances of leaving it too hard and brittle. This approach works on relatively small things. I might use a different approach on jackhammer bits. Bruce NJ ------- NOTE TO FILE: This next conversation started about milling on a lathe but soon switched to milling tips that were fairly generic (for any dedicated milling machine, or any milling attachment for any lathe) and then switched to a discussion of milling cutters. Milling using a vertical slide on an ML7 [myfordlathes] Posted by: garthnx~xxpbt.co.za garthn444 Date: Wed Dec 25, 2013 4:13 pm ((PST)) Hi fellows, I'm trying to mill a 10mm deep slot in mild steel, 14mm wide, using an 8mm slot drill. Not working well at all -- actually, no idea of how to get this right. Should I cut very shallow depths, and at what RPM? lubricant? and cut the extra 6mm the same way? really unsure... Thanks Garth ------- Re: [myfordlathes] Milling using a vertical slide on an ML7 Posted by: "silverfoxccx~xxtiscali.co.uk" Date: Wed Dec 25, 2013 4:35 pm ((PST)) Garth, That was my m.o until I got more slot drills. I think my mill is stuck in either 255 or 500 Rpm. Had no problems at all since using plenty of cutting oil, got better results. Ron ------- Re: Milling using a vertical slide on an ML7 Posted by: "Andrew Curl" methuselahx~xxntlworld.com Date: Fri Dec 27, 2013 1:45 am ((PST)) Start in the centre of where you want the slot. A rule of thumb is to go half the diameter of the cutter deep, per pass. As you develop a feel, you'll be able to judge this sort of thing quite easily. Take the first pass, then move the slide up and then down, locking it, and taking second and third passes ("X" axis) close to the finished dimension, then take to full depth. For finishing to width, assuming that you've left only about ten thou., set the slide, lock it and climb mill. Usually you should feed the work against the rotation of the cutter, when removing small amounts climb milling will leave a better finish. Make sure that the vertical slide is locked whenever possible. Appropriate cutter speed would be at least 600 rpm; industry would go faster; but as usual, you cannot go too slow if a steady feed can be maintained. Lubrication when milling is a bit different to turning, in that a drip can or brush doesn't deliver enough fluid to wash the chips away (what you ideally want) and can actually hinder the process, so it's your call. I do almost all of my indoor milling dry, unless I'm working something sticky, like aluminium. Cutter life is shorter, but having the chips sticking to the flutes can shorten cutter life still more. Wear some goggles when milling. You are producing shards and splinters which you really don't want in your eyes, and if things go really wrong, snapped cutters can take eyes out from the other side of workshops too. Don't wear gloves near rotating machinery ever. Andrew UK ------- Re: Milling using a vertical slide on an ML7 Posted by: garthnx~xxpbt.co.za garthn444 Date: Fri Dec 27, 2013 3:36 am ((PST)) I am taking off .2mm at a time. If I try .5 or 1, there is serious vibration. I'm using my stepper motors to drive the lathe, I've tried cross slide speeds between .5mm and 2mm per second. Something I'm missing....or perhaps milling steel is just not something easy on the lathe/slide? I also don't see any method of locking the vertical slide -- should there be a bolt or something? (I have an original swivelling slide.) ------- Re: Milling using a vertical slide on an ML7 Posted by: "Andrew Curl" methuselahx~xxntlworld.com Date: Fri Dec 27, 2013 4:23 am ((PST)) Garth, small cuts are the ones most likely to take the edge off! For infeeds, I would suggest 0.15 or 0.2mm -per rev-. The myford slide I have is off a 254 (a biggun) but these things usually have a socket headed screw or two along the same side as the gib screws. Even the small ones. At a push, nip one of the gib screws up instead, and add locking bolts to your "to do" (with some urgency) list. Make sure that your cross-slide and your carriage are adjusted well, too. You can lock the carriage if necessary. Milling steel isn't as easy as brass or ally, but if your cutter is sharp, it shouldn't really represent a problem. Is your cutter in good order? Where did you get the steel would be another good question. Are you sure you haven't sourced some b*st&rd hard stuff out of someone's scrap bin? (As an aside, I wouldn't ordinarily mention this, but I have accidentally run cutters backward before now; they work remarkably well, considering -- what is your rig? Overhead drives are great for fluffing rotational direction.) Andrew UK ------- Re: Milling using a vertical slide on an ML7 Posted by: garthnx~xxpbt.co.za garthn444 Date: Fri Dec 27, 2013 4:45 am ((PST)) Hi Andrew. By .2mm a rev - at 1200RPM, would that be 4mm per second? Wow....perhaps that is the whole problem, I'm feeding in far too cautiously? (I calculated 1200 from Tubal Cain's book "Milling operations in the lathe" - (3.8)x(100ft/minute for free cutting MS) / (cutter diameter in inches). The cutter is a brand new 8mm slot drill -- it's a good quality (I think a Somta). The steel is free cutting from a reputable firm here -- it turns great. Also good quality... The lathe (ML7) is running in normal direction -- but as I am cutting a slot, the teeth would be cutting both against and with the movement of the work piece. No sign of any locking bolt -- I must add that. In the meantime, I am clamping to stop it moving -- seems to work fine (I wrecked one piece before I realised it was moving). Regards Garth ------- Re: Milling using a vertical slide on an ML7 Posted by: d.j.wilsonx~xxmac.com Date: Fri Dec 27, 2013 10:12 am ((PST)) On my slide, two of the gib strip adjustment screws are allen bolts, that I tighten up to lock the slide. ------- Re: Milling using a vertical slide on an ML7 Posted by: "Alan Moore" a.j.moorex~xxbtinternet.com Date: Fri Dec 27, 2013 12:31 pm ((PST)) Hi Garth, I think you are in the process of discovering why people buy milling machines. Trying to mill in the lathe with a vertical slide is a pain -- whatever you do, it is almost impossible to hold the work rigidly enough to avoid chatter. While I would hesitate to disagree with anyone as expert as Andrew, my experience has been that you can throw away all the normal guidelines of speeds and feed rates when milling in the lathe. It is just not rigid enough to take the strain. Regards, Alan ------- Re: Milling using a vertical slide on an ML7 Posted by: "Andrew Curl" methuselahx~xxntlworld.com Date: Fri Dec 27, 2013 4:02 pm ((PST)) Alan, I'm not an authority! I just write about what has worked for me. Drummond fan as I am, I eventually bought a MkII BCA miller. The chief problem, milling in lathes, as you quite rightly pointed out, is rigidity, or put differently, slideway area. Locking off all unnecessary slides helps, and a lot of work can be done this way if no other machines are to hand. Just got to take it easy. To this day, some of my most complex milling jobs were done on my lathe. It just takes a little more patience! Andrew UK ------- Re: Milling using a vertical slide on an ML7 Posted by: "Alan Moore" a.j.moorex~xxbtinternet.com Date: Fri Dec 27, 2013 7:00 pm ((PST)) Andrew, One other comment. If you absolutely have to mill in the lathe and you have one of the vertical slides which can be swivelled in the vertical plane, it is worth while drilling the base and putting in two taper pins or shouldered bolts to hold it accurately at right angles to the bed (you do 90% of your milling in this position). If you rely totally on the single bolt clamp you can find that machining forces will cause the slide to creep round to some angle and ruin your cut. How do I know this? Regards, Alan ------- Re: Milling using a vertical slide on an ML7 Posted by: stephen_vollerx~xxhotmail.com Date: Sat Dec 28, 2013 8:58 am ((PST)) If it's no good, you have to wonder why Myford persisted in selling the vertical slides. I appreciate it's not an ideal setup but we can't all run to a dedicated milling machine, be it on cost or room available basis -- I include myself in those scenarios. I have yet to try milling using my ML7, but have a double swivel vertical slide so will be giving it a go in due course. I am happy to take lighter cuts if it means I can achieve the result I desire. If it doesn't work out I guess there is always the option of selling the double swivel vertical slide again as they seem to fetch good money. Unfortunately I don't think a dedicated mill is viable for me but who knows what the future holds. Regards, Steve V ------- Re: Milling using a vertical slide on an ML7 Posted by: "Bob Hamilton" bobx~xxhamilton-bob.freeserve.co.uk Date: Sat Dec 28, 2013 10:00 am ((PST)) I have never used the vertical slide that came with my machine and would not consider myself to be even good with a miller, let alone expert. I would however offer some advice to anyone just “having a go” Probably the first thing to watch out for is the cutter grabbing and pulling into the cut. Climb Milling may indeed give a better finish as somebody suggested (I can’t say yay or nay to that) but is fraught with danger. I would always cut against the direction of travel, not with it. Small cuts may (or may not) cause cutter wear, but how much milling are you doing?? Lots of coolant / lubricant is doubtless desirable, as a makeshift device try compressed air to clear the cuttings. Never expect to get a perfectly sized slot with a single cut, expect to open it up with cuts to the sides. Wherever possible have the relevant slides either locked or at least tightly “nipped”. These machines are really quite amazing little things and very capable in the right hands, but lots of care is needed to get good results. I’m sure that nice modern CNC stuff works perfectly with only a degree in I.T. required to make them perform. I’m a “very old school” pre CNC guy. In fact as I am writing, it came back to me that some of the very old lathes that we had were fitted with screws on the cross slide that required the handle to be turned “WRONG WAY” that is counter clockwise to “go in”--------Can you imagine how many cock ups there were using them. Anyway, enough of all our yesterdays. Good luck -- just go steady. Bob ------- Re: Milling using a vertical slide on an ML7 Posted by: "David Littlewood" davidx~xxdlittlewood.co.uk Date: Sat Dec 28, 2013 6:27 pm ((PST)) Bob Hamilton writes > Never expect to get a perfectly sized slot with a single cut, expect > to openit up with cuts to the sides. This is certainly true if you use a 4-flute end mill, but if you use a 2-flute slot drill the resulting slot should be pretty well spot on, at least I have found it is when I've done it. This is all to do with the presence or absence of sideways thrust on the cutter, and this job is, after all, what slot drills are designed for. David Littlewood ------- Re: Milling using a vertical slide on an ML7 Posted by: garthnx~xxpbt.co.za Date: Sun Dec 29, 2013 5:18 am ((PST)) I found the slots to be quite neat - using a two flute slot drill. My concern now is speed and vibration - I think this is too much to expect from a vertical slide. I've made 2 parts out of 12 that I want (for a QCTP). Can a slot drill be sharpened? Is an 8mm slot drill overkill? Should I cut multiple times with a smaller slot drill? ------- Re: Milling using a vertical slide on an ML7 Posted by: "Andrew Curl" methuselahx~xxntlworld.com Date: Sun Dec 29, 2013 5:43 am ((PST)) Slot drills are for slots, they can be used for profiling, endmills are really for profiling only, they certainly cannot be used for plunging. Slot drills can be resharpened, the end faces can be done off-hand if you have a good eye, the flutes require a special machine- a T&C grinder. These can get expensive, or you can make your own, like the "Quorn" the "Stent" and others. 8mm should not be an overkill, but there are these wonderful three flute cutters that can profile and plunge called FC3s. They are only made to a maximum of 1/4" or 6mm, they are solid cobalt, and the idea of them is that they are so cheap (for industry) that they are not actually worth resharpening -- they are also known as throwaway cutters. I use them a lot! The smaller diameter means higher rotational speeds and more passes -- that's all. Their shorter length (read: minimal overhang) helps rigidity. They can be had with extra length flutes, ball noses and such, just like their bigger brothers, and can offer the best of both worlds. If you have more money, Clarkson make their "Premium" 3 flute cutters too. They have the same 3-flute configuration, but come in bigger sizes, with the usual threaded shanks instead of a clamping flat. It's worth noting that half the reason that the "Quorn" was designed was to resharpen FC3s after all. Andrew ------- Re: Milling using a vertical slide on an ML7 Posted by: stephen_vollerx~xxhotmail.com stephen_volleruk Date: Sun Dec 29, 2013 7:18 am ((PST)) Thanks Bob, I will go carefully, and of course you can only learn by trying. Regards, Steve V. ------- Re: Milling using a vertical slide on an ML7 Posted by: johnx~xxstevenson-engineers.co.uk Date: Sun Dec 29, 2013 5:07 pm ((PST)) Andrew, Not so fast, what you are quoting is classic Chapman but things have moved on and the manufacturers haven't kept to any standard. You can now get center cutting 3, 4, 5, and 6 flute 'end mills' or if they are center cutting should they be called slot drills? Doesn't help that they call they different names on the same page of the catalog!! I took a chipped 20mm carbide end mill in for resharpening, it was the classic one with the hole in the centre. When it came back it was center cutting, no hole and one flute over center. These new 5 and 7 axis tool and cutter grinder have rewritten the book, only problem is there hasn't been any new books for 50 years ------- Re: Milling using a vertical slide on an ML7 Posted by: "David Littlewood" davidx~xxdlittlewood.co.uk Date: Sun Dec 29, 2013 6:38 pm ((PST)) johnx~xxstevenson-engineers.co.uk writes >You can now get center cutting 3, 4 5, and 6 flute 'end mills' or if >they are center cutting should they be called slot drills ? The problem with this is that if the cutter has more than two flutes, there will be a sideways force on the cutter edge as it removes metal, so the extra teeth at the side will remove some metal, so the slot will be displaced slightly. This displacement will depend slightly on the speed and depth of cutting, and drastically if you traverse in the reverse direction. The effect has nothing to do with the presence or absence of a centre cutting tooth. The result is always, to a greater or lesser extent, a slot which is over-width, displaced, ragged, or all three. With a two flute cutter, there is no cutting tooth in contact with the side wall when the sideways force is applied, so these problems do not exist. This was explained very clearly by G H Thomas in his "Workshop Manual". David Littlewood ------- Old Kit, New to operating it?? [myfordlathes] Posted by: "Bob Hamilton" bobx~xxhamilton-bob.freeserve.co.uk Date: Mon Dec 30, 2013 1:38 am ((PST)) While I certainly have no argument with the positives / negatives of obtaining accurately sized slots using slot drills against end mills. My comments were really aimed at someone with possibly limited experience and with old / unfamiliar kit. I have found that people that know "THINGS" and this covers a multitude of "THINGS" forget that newcomers find "Everything difficult"---------Myself included. Mistakes are often made in the final stages of making "THINGS" and slots for keys are a classic. It would make sense to me, to test run a cutter and size up the result if unfamiliar with.the setup, but failing that, an undersized cutter will allow some "adjustments" to be made. I think that my background has generally been with old machines that were often far from accurate and a large amount of operator input was required, so the above would be the sort of thing that was required all of the time. Not quite here yet, but-------Happy New Year to one and all. Bob ------- Re: Milling using a vertical slide on an ML7 Posted by: "Andrew Curl" methuselahx~xxntlworld.com Date: Mon Dec 30, 2013 8:16 am ((PST)) True enough, John. I like to think my references are a bit more recent though! I have the Caxton books (A.W.Judge c.1948) but I was thinking more along the lines of my Buck and Hickman/ Cromwell Tools catalogues, and the cutters I tend to buy and use, which are a bit more up to date. Please bear in mind that when I use my lathe or my BCA, I seldom use more than a 5/8" diameter cutter (the BCA can't hold a threaded shank bigger than 3/8") although I do use shell mills upto 2" on the Drummond. For facing. Whilst I have seen a 6-axis Walter CNC grinder in action (frightening!), cutters of those sorts of sizes and numbers of flutes are hardly applicable to little machines. I have a couple of half inch six fluters, but to give an idea of their age, thay are on morse taper shanks, too. They're new-old-stock as well, boxed and labelled as such, and not modified reamers. I am still not convinced that a six or seven flute endmill, regardless of the gashing applied can truly plunge without an awful lot more pecks that a two flute slot drill, either. I save the "big" stuff for my Bridgeport. Even then not that big- when you've served your time with Parksons, they seem pretty whippy! Andrew ------- Re: Milling using a vertical slide on an ML7 Posted by: garthnx~xxpbt.co.za garthn444 Date: Tue Dec 31, 2013 5:23 am ((PST)) I'm having much more success with a smaller (5mm) slot drill than the 8mm. Same design, two flute. When I bought it I asked for the technical specs for cutting and am using those, 1800RPM and feed of a little more than 1mm per second (for free cutting MS). I am managing 1mm depth, 2 causes too much vibration, but 10 passes x 4 (to get 10mm x 14mm) is a lot better than 100 x 2. I'm unsure exactly of how to lock the slide -- I don;t see locking screws on any of the photos I have found of vertical slides. Locking the screw means that the backlash is still a factor. I don't want to start drilling holes in the slide until I'm sure about this... ------- Re: Milling using a vertical slide on an ML7 Posted by: "Bob Hamilton" bobx~xxhamilton-bob.freeserve.co.uk Date: Tue Dec 31, 2013 8:26 am ((PST)) Can you just nip the slide adjustment a bit more than normal on both the lathe and the vertical slide. Also have the feedscrews adjusted neat so as to remove as much backlash as possible Are the lathe headstock bearings OK.??? Plenty of lube to help with any play. Put a DTI on the chuck and a bit of timber underneath as a lever to test. I’d have thought an 8mm cutter used a bit gently would have flown through free cutting mild steel. 1800 rpm does seem a touch fast to me, but that should help in other ways. What is it that you are trying to make?? Bob ------- Re: Milling using a vertical slide on an ML7 Posted by: garthnx~xxpbt.co.za garthn444 Date: Tue Dec 31, 2013 9:15 am ((PST)) I suspect my main problem is that although my machine vice (mounted on the verticle slide) is fairly heavy (good), it has considerable overhang (bad). There is just a lot of vibration. I've tightened up all gib strips as much as I can without them jamming. My main bearings are good, I reshimmed a while back and there is no detectable play. I'm making these http://homews.co.uk/QCTH2-04.pdf The precision is not a great factor -- they are coming out alright, just taking a long time to mill. ------- Re: Milling using a vertical slide on an ML7 Posted by: "Kevin" tadpolex~xxbtinternet.com klokenz Date: Tue Dec 31, 2013 9:47 am ((PST)) Hi Garth, I use my vertical slide fairly often for milling operations, though always on a rather small scale. For removing much metal you have to take it gently, as you've found. The vertical slide enables you to do milling operations in the lathe, but doesn't convert the lathe into a milling machine! The standard Myford vertical slide doesn't have locking screws as such, so yours isn't missing anything. Regard the vertical adjustment as a means to set the workpiece to the required height _between_ passes of the cutter. Since it will not be used _during_ a pass the gib adjusting screws can be nipped up tighter. I used to just nip up one of them, leaving the others to take care of free movement when I needed to move up or down. Later, for many years, I used to fit a small G clamp to secure the two main parts to each other. As I recall I had a small shaper spacer to go under one jaw. It did not look at all elegant, but was very practical! Later I got around to fitting a single locking screw. It's an M4 socket head screw that presses on the gib. I would not want to use anything larger as it goes into cast iron, and I worry about applying too much "wellie" and spliting part of it out. Maybe I'm worrying unnecessarily, anyway the M4 serves my light duty needs. Sometimes, in fact often, you can do without the vise. As an example, make up a piece of 25mm square with a couple of holes near the ends for Tee screws to clamp it firmly to the vertical slide. Then fix the workpiece to that with toolmaker's clamps, or by putting screws directly into it. Regard it as disposable, though it will last for many jobs. Even better if the work allows is to clamp directly onto the face of the vertical slide. Kevin, NW England, UK ------- Re: Milling using a vertical slide on an ML7 Posted by: "Cliff Coggin" clifford.cogginx~xxvirgin.net Date: Wed Jan 1, 2014 3:30 am ((PST)) My ML7 vertical slide has three gib locking screws in addition to the three adjusting screws, though whether they are original or fitted by the single previous owner I know not. Despite that, the whole assembly is much too flexible for serious milling operations. I have milled brass and aluminium in it after a fashion, but don't entertain the idea of milling steel. Cliff Coggin Kent UK ------- NOTE TO FILE: The following conversation about a Myford ML4 lathe wandered off topic onto the relative merits of using carbide and high speed steel cutting bits. That portion about bits is of interest to the owners of any lathe, so was copied here too. The earlier part of the conversation can be read on this website in the text file titled Myford Lathe Gems. ------- Re: New ML4 owner needs help! [myfordlathes] Posted by: "David Littlewood" davidx~xxdlittlewood.co.uk Date: Sat Feb 8, 2014 3:34 am ((PST)) >I am a firm believer in getting a good fit to the register to ensure >concentricity. Not only is this true, it's what Myford themselves said IIRC. The thread should preferably not be too tight, it's only there to pull the backplate firmly into the register. >These lathes were built in the days when the home worker used carbon >steel tools, but you will get best results with HSS, really sharp. Modern >insert tools are a waste of money, they are meant for lathes a lot stiffer >and faster than ML4s. I have used carbide tipped tools with complete success on my 2 lathes (S7 and M300). I agree that HSS tools can have advantages - if finely honed they can give a finer cut, but I can take half a thou off with carbide. HSS tools need a lot of work with a bench grinder, or (better) with a proper T&C grinder. David Littlewood ------- Re: New ML4 owner needs help! Posted by: "Richard Wilson" richardpwilson61x~xxyahoo.co.uk Date: Sat Feb 8, 2014 4:03 am ((PST)) David. Regarding tools, I was talking about Chris's prewar ML4, which is a lot less rigid than the S7 or M300. The ML4 just doesn't justify the investment in replaceable tipped tooling, the results won't be any better than really sharp HSS. Richard ------- Re: New ML4 owner needs help! Posted by: "Andrew Curl" methuselahx~xxntlworld.com Date: Sat Feb 8, 2014 4:57 am ((PST)) Agreed. The Harrison and the S7 can make efficient use of insert tooling if a chap wants to hoof it, smaller lathes with whippier headstocks don't see much benefit. On some of the tougher steels, the only way to get a good finish is to use comparatively heavy cuts, with coolant; for the rest of us, we need a good edge and lubricant. Please note the distinction between "coolant" and "lubricant" here. I do keep some carbide stuff, but for very particular reasons- thread cutting, profile generation (button tool) and cast iron work, to get under the "skin". HSS is the normal standby. For the really arduous stuff, if I don't have carbide to hand, I use high carbon steel. Much maligned, it is actually HARDER than HSS, but it fell out of favour because it cannot take heat. That is all. Just keep the cutting speeds down to suit. And the best bit is you can get it cheap in the form of worn out files, especially if you know a friendly welding shop. Do I worry about time vs. finish when I'm doing my stuff for me? I think not. Andrew UK ------- Re: New ML4 owner needs help! Posted by: "David Littlewood" davidx~xxdlittlewood.co.uk Date: Sat Feb 8, 2014 5:38 am ((PST)) >The ML4 just doesn't justify the investment in replaceable tipped >tooling, the results won't be any better than really sharp HSS. Richard, I'm sure your point is absolutely valid - and you know the ML4 far better than I do, though I had already got the point about its lack of rigidity. However, my point is that carbide tools are not only suited to those with big, rigid machines and want to hog off 10 mm at a time at 1500 rpm with blue smoke and sparks. They can also be very useful for those who want to take dainty little cuts with a lightweight lathe, but don't have the grinding equipment to grind HSS tools, and don't want to spend a lot of time grinding them - or (equally important) learning the hand-eye co-ordination to grind them with the right angles. Admittedly it will cost more, but not everyone is governed solely by cost, so the choice is for each person to make - when suitably informed. I have a proper industrial-type T&C grinder, and a good collection of precisely ground HSS tools, but I still like carbide tipped tooling for a lot of work - and I rarely take cuts which would strain a lighter lathe. David Littlewood ------- Re: New ML4 owner needs help! Posted by: "Ken Strauss" ken.straussx~xxgmail.com Date: Sat Feb 8, 2014 10:54 am ((PST)) People frequently mention the cost of carbide relative to HSS. Yes, HSS costs less for a tool bit. Yes, HSS can be re-sharpened numerous times. Yes, HSS can give excellent results in most materials when properly sharpened. However, after considering the cost of a quality T&C grinder plus the value of your time taken in sharpening, (we all have limited hours remaining in our lives) carbide inserts are far cheaper. It is a tremendous time saver to just replace the insert with no need to sharpen, reset tool height or make other adjustments. If you don’t like the price for inserts from your local supplier then take a look at eBay. The idea that all carbide inserts require a very rigid lathe and are dull even when new is ridiculous. Tell that to anyone who has just sliced their finger on a CCGT insert! ------- Re: New ML4 owner needs help! Posted by: "Ian Newman" ian_newx~xxyahoo.com Date: Sun Feb 9, 2014 1:58 am ((PST)) Hi Ken, In common with most aspects of machining, there is no right or wrong answer to the question of best option between carbide and HSS. I agree with all the statements you make, but reach a different conclusion, due to the "disadvantages" that you cite for HSS: However, after considering the cost of a quality T&C grinder plus the value of your time taken in sharpening, (we all have limited hours remaining in our lives) carbide inserts are far cheaper A "quality tool and cutter grinder" is a luxury, not a requirement - a simple bench grinder (with a guide if lack of practice or confidence requires) will do the job quickly, efficiently and repeatably. I would go so far as to say that any home workshop with a lathe will also boast a low cost bench grinder. Regarding the "value of your time" - this is a relative judgement. I have a workshop for my own entertainment and as a hobby, not for commercial or business reasons. In my case, I reckon I spend 90% of my time translating drawings in to sequences of work, checking dimensions, finding material, marking out, making test measurements and checks between machining operations, etc and a maximum of 10% of time actually machining. For me, machining time is a minor part of the process and of little significance - in fact I will often sit down with a cup of coffee and admire a particularly nice, shiny surface that I've just machined, or even just stroking and talking to my machines.... Sharpening and setting tools is simple and quick to do, whereas money is the limiting factor in the machining activities I undertake. All the best, Ian ------- Re: New ML4 owner needs help! Posted by: "Ken Strauss" ken.straussx~xxgmail.com Date: Sun Feb 9, 2014 6:58 am ((PST)) Yes, I also confess to wasting time stroking things! Yes, I spend far more time designing, looking for the tool that I didn’t put away, etc. Yes, everyone must decide how to get the most pleasure from their hobby and there is no right answer. I don’t do any commercial work either but in my opinion reducing any source of distraction while actually machining a part is a very good thing. By purchasing quality carbide inserts inexpensively on eBay the difference in cost versus HSS is a small fraction of my annual workshop expenditures. I just hope that my wife isn’t reading this… ------- NOTE TO FILE: Every now and then a conversation starts that never seems to end. New ML4 owner needs help! is one of them. Going to stop following it here now. You can read any more directly in the myfordlathes group. ------- Indexible Tools question [myfordlathes] Posted by: philhardy01x~xxyahoo.com philhardy01 Date: Tue Oct 14, 2014 6:58 am ((PDT)) Her Majesty has offered to buy me a set of indexible tools for my ML7 for my upcoming birthday, am I right in thinking they should be the 10mm ones? I've been looking at the Glanze ones that seem a pretty good quality, what do others think? Cheers, Phil ------- Re: Indexible Tools question Posted by: "Ken Strauss" ken.straussx~xxgmail.com kstrauss7 Date: Tue Oct 14, 2014 8:24 am ((PDT)) In my experience the quality of the Glanze holders is entirely adequate. You may want to consider getting the DCxx holders rather than the CCxx ones that many purchase. The DCxx shaped cutters are wonderful when working around the tailstock centre and for roughing 55-degree threads. DCGT cutters produce a wonderful finish on aluminum. ------- Re: Indexible Tools question Posted by: "David Littlewood" davidx~xxdlittlewood.co.uk Date: Tue Oct 14, 2014 8:29 am ((PDT)) It depends what you hold them in. I have a large collection of Dickson holders in size 00 (the correct size for Myford 3.5" lathes), some genuine and some foreign. The range of slot heights varies between 13.4 mm and 14.7 mm, thus all would, in theory take 1/2" tools. However, unless the tip of the tool was quite a bit below the top of the shank, the holder could not be lowered enough to match centre height. Most of the tools I use in them are 10 mm or 3/8" (9.5 mm), and I don't recall having any which could not meet centre height; if there is a slight clash, the advantage of replaceable tip tooling is that it is quite easy to machine a smidgin off the base. I do have a couple of 8 mm ones, and there is plenty of upward adjustment in the toolholder for these, so if you do get hold of some in this size they should be useable (though not quite so rigid). Of course, if you use some other system of toolholding, then this answer may not be applicable. If you are unfortunate enough to have a 4-way toolpost (yuk), you should ask Santa to buy you a decent toolholder system. >I've been looking at the Glanze ones that seem a pretty good quality I do have a set of Glanze tools in 1/2" (or maybe 12 mm) size for my larger lathe. The impression I have -- and I have no detailed research data -- is that the holders are OK (not quite as refined as dearer makes) but the tips are more fragile; I have broken quite a few, whereas other makes are more likely to wear out. Or maybe it's just that the use I make of my larger lathe (M300) is more demanding, or I am more hamfisted in using it. Of course, the advantage of tipped tooling is that the sizes and shapes are standardised, so you can use other makes in Glanze holders. David Littlewood ------- Re: Indexible Tools question Posted by: "Kevin" tadpolex~xxbtinternet.com klokenz Date: Tue Oct 14, 2014 9:56 am ((PDT)) Can anyone explain just why the holders for indexable lathe tools are so damnably expensive? Is it simple a question of what the market will bear, as I suspect? I used to think that maybe there was some magic involved, but then I got carried away at one of the exhibitions and bought one plus some tips, and couldn't see anything out of the ordinary. Since then I've read articles in the mags on making your own holders, and there doesn't seem to be any smoke and mirrors or unobtainium involved. Mainly I use HSS tools in the lathe, not being concerned with production rates. Carbide tips have come to the rescue on three occasions though, when I've run into hard inclusions that have wrecked the HSS tool. Twice while machining gauge plate (normally delightful material to work with) and once on a piece of EN8. In all cases I had a fair bit of time already invested in the job and, unusually for me, a looming deadline (they were pieces for an exam .... clock stuff). Kevin ------- Re: Indexible Tools question Posted by: "Alan Moore" a.j.moorex~xxbtinternet.com Date: Tue Oct 14, 2014 3:20 pm ((PDT)) Kevin: Have you looked at CTC Tools (www.ctctools.biz)? They do a range of indexable tools at very reasonable (actually, amazingly cheap) prices. I bought the basic LH and RH turning tools and have been very pleased with them. Usual disclaimer. Regards, Alan ------- Re: Indexible Tools question Posted by: "c j.s" callinicus1953x~xxyahoo.co.uk Date: Wed Oct 15, 2014 5:35 am ((PDT)) Hi Guys, within reason tool holders are a much of a muchness, as long as they hold the insert securely that is about all that matters in a home shop usage. What is important is that you get the insert that suits your application and not just take for granted that the ones supplied will do. A tip for cast iron will do a pretty naff job on Aluminium for instance! If you are not prepared to investigate what specs the tips have, or the supplier can't or won't give them, you might well be better off with HSS. ------- Re: Indexible Tools question Posted by: "Ken Strauss" ken.straussx~xxgmail.com kstrauss7 Date: Wed Oct 15, 2014 5:57 am ((PDT)) Yes, the only real requirement for an insert holder is something that will hold your insert securely and at the right angle. Most inexpensive holders are made of mild steel and are not hardened. If you have a VMC and some spare time it is possible to make your own holders. I have done so for some special jobs but it is generally not worth the effort if a standard holder is available. The advantage of buying a holder for CCxx, DCxx or other standard shape of insert is that you can use inserts from dozens of manufacturers. Whether the inserts from CTC, Chronos or whoever are suitable is completely irrelevant. You can buy your inserts from Iscar, Korloy or other manufacturer who makes exactly what you need for your particular material, SFM, desired DoC, etc. I would never buy no-name inserts without a spec sheet! ------- Re: Indexible Tools question Posted by: philhardy01x~xxyahoo.com philhardy01 Date: Sun Oct 19, 2014 4:25 am ((PDT)) Still a bit confused here. I was about to order a set of Glanze DC xx indexible tools but then read they are for aly, as I will be turning mostly steel should I buy the Cc xx ones? Any help really appreciated here. Cheers, Phil ------- Re: Indexible Tools question Posted by: "David Littlewood" davidx~xxdlittlewood.co.uk dmlittlewood Date: Sun Oct 19, 2014 4:56 am ((PDT)) Phil, You are confusing the overall shape of the insert with the tip geometry. The initial letter of the code is the shape of the insert: C indicates an 80 degree diamond shape, D a 55 degree diamond. This tells you what corners etc. the insert can get into (and what holder it requires) but tells you little or nothing about what it is designed to cut. The second and fourth letters, plus some of the numbers, tell you about the configuration of the cutting edge and chipbreaker, which influences the type of material it is designed to work on. If you look around the web, you will find numerous sources which will set all this out for you. Here is one I found in 30 seconds Googling - not the best I have seen, but you will learn more if you do your own research: http://www.carbidedepot.com/formulas-insert-d.htm One factor you should bear in mind is that the tip geometries are optimised for production machining, mostly involving maximising metal removal and tip life. Many have found that the more delicate tips designed for Al alloys can give finer surface finishes on steel, when used carefully by home users with very modest removal rates. You just have to find out for yourself what works best for you on your machinery, but to be frank you should be able to get decent results -- maybe not the very best, but perfectly acceptable -- with any normal tip that fits your holder. David Littlewood ------- Re: Indexible Tools question Posted by: callinicus1953x~xxyahoo.co.uk callinicus1953 Date: Sun Oct 19, 2014 10:18 am ((PDT)) Just to add to David's fine advice, if you use a tip intended for Aluminium on Steel, perfectly possible in a home environment, make sure to bring the tip out of contact with the work before stopping the lathe or you may well chip the insert as they are very brittle and do not respond well sudden changes in loading. Inserts for Aluminium usually have more top rake which makes them more delicate than a more robust one intended for Steel. CJS ------- Re: Indexible Tools question Posted by: "Ken Strauss" ken.straussx~xxgmail.com kstrauss7 Date: Sun Oct 19, 2014 10:46 am ((PDT)) Definitely good advice from you and David! I would like to emphasize the delicacy of the Aluminium tips when used on steel. I normally reserve them for the last 10-20 thou. For roughing I frequently use HSS inserts. These are made by A.R. Warner and sold by Little Machine Shop (and probably many others) and fit standard insert holders. They provide the advantages of HSS for interrupted cuts together with the convenience of interchangeable inserts. You can exchange the insert between HSS and carbide without resetting tool height. ------- Re: Indexible Tools question Posted by: "Richard Wilson" richardpwilson61x~xxyahoo.co.uk Date: Sun Oct 19, 2014 10:17 am ((PDT)) This thread just confirms why I mostly use HSS, which cuts most things, rather than having a drawer full of different inserts. ------- Re: Indexible Tools question Posted by: "Steve Talbot" steve.talbotx~xxtiscali.co.uk stevtalbot Date: Mon Oct 20, 2014 2:04 am ((PDT)) Just to add my two penerth, I also went down the tipped tool route when I started machining and spent a considerable amount of money. I was never entirely happy with the results even after researching the tips and taking advice. So tried tangential tooling with HSS inserts http://www.eccentricengineering.com.au/index.php?option=com_con tent&view=article&id=2&Itemid=17 Usual disclaimers) and am more than happy with the results and use tipped tools now only on very hard or difficult metals. Steve T ------- Tool bit question [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: "Dave Pinella" dpinellax~xxcinci.rr.com aerologic_psw Date: Tue Nov 11, 2014 6:16 pm ((PST)) As usual I over study a topic until I'm confused. :) I have not, to date, ground my own tool bits from HSS. I want to fill this gap in my knowledge. I have watched YouTube videos and I have How To Run a Lathe by South Bend. What confuses me is the literature assumes a Lathe Tool Holder that I believe holds the bit at 16.5 degrees up from horizontal. I'm not sure about the 16.5. Anyway I have a QCTP which holds the bit at 0 degrees to horizontal. How does this affect the angles that I will grind onto the HSS?? As usual, thanks! Dave P ------- Re: Tool bit question Posted by: "David Beierl" dbeierlx~xxattglobal.net dgbeierl Date: Tue Nov 11, 2014 6:27 pm ((PST)) The idea of the angled holder is to let you grind tools with no back rake but increased front clearance that will be presented to the work with positive back rake and normal front clearance. To get a zero back rake for brass with such a holder you'd have to grind on a negative back rake. Yours, David Beier ------- Re: Tool bit question Posted by: "Dave Pinella" dpinellax~xxcinci.rr.com aerologic_psw Date: Wed Nov 12, 2014 4:05 am ((PST)) Ok. Thanks. I think I understand. For sure I need to stop reading and just grind some bits and get on with it. :) Dave P, near Cincinnati ------- Re: Tool bit question Posted by: "David Beierl" dbeierlx~xxattglobal.net dgbeierl Date: Wed Nov 12, 2014 5:15 am ((PST)) Visualize the whole thing from the side looking down toward the tailstock, with the cross-section of the work on your left. Imagine a tool blank with square ends mounted in your flat tool holder, with the top of the blank on the work center line. When you offer it to the work, the top of the tool is perpendicular (zero back rake) and the front of the tool is tangent (zero front clearance) to the surface of the work. So you'd grind in a few degrees of front clearance so the tool doesn't rub on the work, and probably some back rake (making an angled notch into the top of the blank) because our little light lathes work better when the cutting forces are less; and back rake makes them less in most materials. I'm ignoring everything about a finished tool except those two angles. Now take that tool and place it in a holder that's angled up fifteen degrees, and again present it to the work. You now have fifteen degrees more back rake than you ground in, but you can't even get the front edge to touch the work because it's got eight or ten degrees of negative clearance in front, so it touches the work below the edge. So if you're making a tool from specs that say "these angles are corrected for 15 degree holder" you have to add 15 to the back rake and subtract 15 from the front clearance to get the equivalent tool that you're going to mount flat. The idea behind letting the holder put on the back rake instead of grinding it is that when you sharpen the tool by grinding the front, the cutting height doesn't change. You can keep extending the grind back indefinitely with the blank getting shorter and shorter. Ground for the flat holder, you can't sharpen for too long without having to grind the whole thing back and start over. >For sure I need to stop reading and just grind some bits and get on >with it. :) Yup. Go to the Sherline website and find the file on grinding a bit. It gives you very detailed instructions to grind one particular bit, so make a few like that. That can be your baseline for branching out into grinding other bits. Tubal Cain (mrpete222) on YouTube has some videos on bit grinding. Once you get comfortable look into grinding chip breakers. This: https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=mrpete222+tool+bit+grinding will get you Tubalcain's four and others as well. But my suggestion would be before you watch any of the videos grit your teeth and grind at least one bit to Sherline's instructions, just to get you off center and moving. Yours, David Beierl ------- Re: Tool bit question Posted by: "David Beierl" dbeierlx~xxattglobal.net dgbeierl Date: Wed Nov 12, 2014 6:49 am ((PST)) At 09:16 AM 11/12/2014, Dave Pinella dpinellax~xxcinci.rr.com [atlas_craftsman] wrote: >I'll check the Shurline video. Thanks again. It's not a video, just a couple pages of moment-by moment instruction that you can print and take to the grinder. Yrs, David Beierl ------- Re: Tool bit question Posted by: "Kurt Bjorling" kbx~xxmuziker.org kbjorling Date: Wed Nov 12, 2014 7:25 am ((PST)) I'm confused as to why Dave and David's messages about "Tool bit question" are grouped here within the "Ways wiper." conversation. In my Digest, these messages have their correct headings, but when I open this thread online they are embedded within the "Ways wiper." conversation with no identifying heading or title of their own. I see further confusion resulting from this, but I don't know how to resolve it. This Tool bit issue interests me, too, and I have a related question of my own. I have ground a few of these, maybe a dozen or so, from blanks and sharpening/reforming existing tools. The bit that follows agrees with what David Beierl has already written in response. I explain here in my way: 1. in case I've still got it wrong and someone can enlighten me, 2. in hope that this is correct and that it helps clarify something that is difficult to express verbally. (Maybe, because I too struggled with this recently, I can help explain our way out of the confusion - maybe not.) Almost everything I know about this I got from the Atlas Manual of Lathe Operations. I too was confused about the relationship between the recommended rake and relief angles and the built-in angle of the toolholders. The Manual is at first misleading because it describes using the standard toolholders with their included angle of 16.5°, but it illustrates tools which have a strong backrake ground into them. I found the wording of the text to be vague on this as well, but after careful reading I understood that the recommended angles given in the charts are those that the the tool presents to the work, and that if the toolholder has a built-in angle of 16.5° and the work calls for a backrake angle of 16.5° then no additional backrake should be ground into the tool. In other words, if one uses a lantern toolpost with the standard angled toolholders, then one would almost never want to use bits shaped like those in the illustrations. On the contrary, when cutting brass one would want a tool with the top of the tip ground more like that of a chisel, to present a shallower backrake than the built-in 16° of the toolholder. The illustrations better describe tools cut to be used in a "carriage turret" where the tools are mounted level with the bed, as with today's QCTP's. I hope I got that right. This is already a too-long message, so I'll write my related question in a separate one. Kurt B ------- Re: Tool bit question Posted by: "Kurt Bjorling" kbx~xxmuziker.org kbjorling Date: Wed Nov 12, 2014 7:37 am ((PST)) On the subject of grinding cutting tools: I have ground several of my own HSS tools from blanks - rather small blanks, too: 3/16 and 1/4 squares that I could use on my 618 lathe. I found it really tedious - slow going work. It was interesting at first, of course, and I was grateful for the slow progress until I got to know what I was doing. I have been using an 8" bench grinder with stock (gray) course and fine wheels. But I recently sharpened some drill bits on a Darex machine that is basically a little bench grinder on steroids and I noticed that I could cut much faster, even on the larger broken bits that required a lot of material to be removed. That makes me wonder whether I should have grinding wheels of a different composition - for the course wheel at least - for grinding my lathe tools. Maybe this is addressed in the instructional videos that have been mentioned in an earlier message in this conversation - by David B, I think(?) I will be looking at those soon, but I also want to know whether any of this group's members have particular advice or recommendations. If my question is well-answered there, then no more is needed (except maybe expressions of agreement with what is presented in those resources). Kurt B ------- Re: Tool bit question Posted by: paulguenterx~xxatt.net paulguenterx~xxatt.net Date: Wed Nov 12, 2014 2:02 pm ((PST)) Here is how i grind my tool bit and do 90% of my work with it. It's high speed steel not carbide. https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/atlas_craftsman/attachments/2033674378 GP ------- Re: Tool bit question Posted by: "David Beierl" dbeierlx~xxattglobal.net dgbeierl Date: Wed Nov 12, 2014 5:05 pm ((PST)) At 05:02 PM 11/12/2014, paulguenterx~xxatt.net [atlas_craftsman] wrote: >I have been using an 8" bench grinder with stock (gray) course and >fine wheels. I think most people would say that those wheels are much too hard (i.e. difficult to tear grains out of the matrix, so on a hard material like HSS they wear down and stop cutting). I've been using a white aluminum oxide vitreous-bond wheel in grade K on a six-inch grinder with good results. As the wheel wears (it's now about five inches) it acts softer, more loss from the wheel for the same amount of cutting. http://www.georgiagrindingwheel.com/grindingwheels_basics.htm Yours, David Beierl ------- Re: Tool bit question Posted by: dan_marlenex~xxcharter.net danlincol Date: Thu Nov 13, 2014 6:14 pm ((PST)) Try a white, pink or blue wheel around the J or K hardness range. You should see and feel a world of difference. Dan Coleman ------- Re: Tool bit question Posted by: paulguenterx~xxatt.net paulguenterx~xxatt.net Date: Fri Nov 14, 2014 8:44 am ((PST)) I have a 60 grit on one side and 120 grit on the other side of the bench grinder, i always use the 120 for the finish. GP ------- End Mills for Cast Al and technique question [SherlineCNC] Posted by: "Elizabeth Greene" elizabeth.a.greenex~xxgmail.com Date: Tue Dec 9, 2014 6:35 am ((PST)) I would like to purchase new end mills for cutting cast Aluminum. (Wheelium and Lawnmower-ium alloys.) Are there any that work better than others? I'd like a ball end and a flat end at least 1/8 diameter. Also, I'm currently using the Jacob's chuck to hold bits. That can't be right. What is the proper way to hold end mills in a Sherline? I'm in Tennessee, if that matters. Thanks! Elizabeth Greene ------- Re: End Mills for Cast Al and technique question Posted by: "Bill Watts" wilwahabrix~xxhotmail.com wilwahabri Date: Tue Dec 9, 2014 9:06 am ((PST)) Hi Elizabeth, Aluminium alloys are, in general, fairly soft materials. High Speed Steel end mills will handle this stuff easily, if you prefer a longer life then go for cobalt steel. If you are feeling wealthy then buy carbide tipped. As a matter of interest, are you intending to plunge the tool into the work piece? if so do not buy end mills, buy slot drills instead, the flutes are offset and will cut a hole, if you try to do that with an end mill, because there are no cutting surfaces across the full width of the mill it will load up and break the tool. End mills are for surfacing and side cutting, slot drills are for cutting slots, but will perform all the functions of an end mill as well - better off buying slot drills, they are available in the same range of materials, sizes and forms. End mills / slot drills should be held in a proper chuck with threaded collets that screw on to the tool and then are inserted in a holder which tightens the collet around the end mill / slot drill. But standard collets work well at the size we are working at. Should not use drill chucks as the can vibrate loose in operation with the result of letting go of the tool - not a pleasant experience! Hope this is not too "preachy" Good luck with your endeavours Bill ------- Re: End Mills for Cast Al and technique question Posted by: baboonhead11x~xxyahoo.com baboonhead11 Date: Tue Dec 9, 2014 7:11 pm ((PST)) Cast aluminum is extremely soft and ductile and gums up easier than hardened 6061 aluminum that machines a lot better. Which means you need super sharp tools and watch your cutting feeds properly otherwise surface finish suffers or you can even break tools if it gums up on the tool. The best stuff for cutting aluminum are 3 flute high rake angle cutters. They cut like a dream. I'd probably choose HSS from a good manufacturer as they are often sharpened sharper than carbide equivalents. HSS hardness is more than enough to handle aluminum and tungsten carbide tooling is not necessary. Don't use jacob's chuck to hold end mills. First they are not very true and have lots of eccentricity. They also can't handle radial loads well and the grip on the tool is poor. You sound like you've had your mill for a while, just wondering why you still don't know or have the tools to hold end mills? I assume you were machining on foam blocks in your previous work thus far (based on what you said earlier) so never needed proper toolholding? You can buy collets or end mill holders from sherline to hold the proper sized tools. Sherline direct ships anywhere. ------- NOTE TO FILE: There have been a lot of postings here discouraging the use of carbide bits in our home workshop lathes, which operate at much lower speeds than industrial strength lathes. The following thread from the Metal_Shapers group provides a solid argument -- based on experience, not theory -- that high quality carbide inserts can be very successfully used in our home lathes (and metal shapers which use essentially identical bits to those suitable for our lathes). But in the thread after that, "Sharpening lathe cutting tools" which starts 15 Jan 2015, there is a persuasive case made by Jerry Kieffer for using high quality brazed carbide bits (and he is very experienced). ------- Carbide Cutters [Metal_Shapers] Posted by: "bill baedke" bbaedke2x~xxyahoo.com bbaedke2 Date: Tue Jan 6, 2015 8:15 am ((PST)) I would like to hear more about using carbide on a shaper. --What insert --do you have a device that lifts the tool on the back stroke --what material are you cutting Thanks, Bill B ------- Re: Carbide Cutters Posted by: "dennis Turk" dennis.turk2x~xxfrontier.com dturkcars Date: Tue Jan 6, 2015 10:50 am ((PST)) Hi Bill OK first don’t worry about lifting the tool on the back stroke as today’s modern carbide inserts are way stronger than HSS. Like two times the rupture strength. The high tech inserts used at my company usually have a rupture strength of between 650K and 750,00 psi. Tensile strength is way higher than HSS also. As to inserts we use, well any insert you use on your lathe. If you're using 1/2 or 5/8 square shank insert holders for your lathe, just clamp them in the clapper box and go to shaping. Some of the inserts that work best are the really high positive inserts. Like 28 degrees positive and these are ground on all sides some down to a .001 nose radius. These new inserts are so sharp you can shave with them. We have sent several of our guys down to the ER to get some stitches in the back of their hand or forearm where they bumped an insert in a tool holder in the turret of a CNC lathe. These things can be wicked. But on the other hand they cut like crazy. I will take some pictures of some of the inserts we use so you guys can see what I am talking about. These are not your run of the mill cheap eBay inserts. We work a lot of Titanium as well as all the stainless materials at my company and the high end inserts usually go for $15 to 20 bucks an insert. I know way too expensive for the home shop guy but what I use at home is not new ones but ones that have been used at work and maybe have only lost 20% of their life and so I use up the other 80%:-))) As to cutting different materials in the shaper we cut just about everything. From tool steel to aluminum. Also the shaper I am restoring right now will be going to a hobby shop that will work bronze and cast iron castings for model steam engines and such. I am not really up on insert terminology but my buddy Ratshooter is and he is the one that has been doing most of the work with these inserts on his shaper. You guys have to understand I have restored nearly 50 antique machine lathes mills and shapers but these are not used but rather are on display at my business as kind of a museum. I am however using the Dalton lathe in this beach home hobby shop. By the way anyone living in the Northwest or passing though and would like to see my collection and also a tour of Turk Mfg. Let me know as I always like showing off the business and my collection. We are located in Hillsboro Oregon about 15 miles from Portland. Will be out in my home shop today so will take some pictures and post them later on my shaper album. Dennis ------- Re: Carbide Cutters Posted by: 32chiselx~xxcomcast.net cabro32 Date: Wed Jan 7, 2015 7:42 pm ((PST)) Hi Dennis: Can you supply the seller and manufacturer of these sharp high strength high tech carbide inserts. I am trying to mill some high strength crawler parts with Chinese carbide inserts that came with the boring bar kit I bought. They just bounce off and chip. What you described is just what I need. Thanks Joe ------- Re: Carbide Cutters Posted by: "dennis Turk" dennis.turk2x~xxfrontier.com dturkcars Date: Wed Jan 7, 2015 10:07 pm ((PST)) Hi Joe. When your email came in I was talking to Ratshooter and he is sending me a picture of how he uses a lathe tool holder and insert tooling on his Atlas shaper. Soon as I get it I will post it up on my shaper album. Dennis ------- Re: Carbide Cutters Posted by: "Tucker Tomlinson" tuckertomlinsonx~xxgmail.com Date: Fri Jan 9, 2015 9:43 am ((PST)) Thanks for filling us in Dennis. I was wondering about this a few months ago but never looked into it. What got me started was looking at an insert based end-mill. My thinking is that each insert in an end mill is always taking an interrupted cut. Seems to me like any insert that can stand up to climb milling in an end-mill could probably stand up to shaper work without chipping. I look forward to hearing more details. Cheers ------- Re: Carbide Cutters Posted by: "dennis Turk" dennis.turk2x~xxfrontier.com dturkcars Date: Fri Jan 9, 2015 10:19 am ((PST)) Hi Joe. Well last night I finished up the Atlas 7A and its ready to be moved to its new home. I also have a business that though I have an operations manager I take a very active role in the running of the company so I am at work three days a week. Sometimes I am a little slow at responding back to questions. As to the insert I talked to my buddy Ratshooter and he is going to send me a picture or pictures of him running insert tooling on his Atlas. I know he is using just a standard lathe tool holder. Now most of you guys are probably using old Armstrong tooling on a lathe if you have one. That tooling by the way is the biggest abuser of lathe compound Tee slots ever devised. It’s funny the English and other European countries would not use that style of tool holders but we did. Bit of trivia but one of the most popular tool holder used by the English was actually designed and patented by an American but US machine builders would not use it so the English did. So this being said you will need to purchase if you don’t have any the proper lathe tool holder to use these inserts. I know that Ratshooter just clamps his lathe tool into the clapper box just like you would a standard shaper tool holder. You are correct about how an insert works even in a milling cutter. We hammer the hell out of insert milling machine tooling at Turk Mfg on all the stainless materials as well as a lot of very high nickel material and also a lot of titanium. In fact you will not find a HSS tool at Turk Mfg. Oh drills and such but even then we use mostly carbide drills. Can anyone guess what our tool budget is a month? If I can get some time, I will go through our boxes of used inserts and see if I can put some care packages together. You see the surface finishes that we are required to hold on a lot of our Titanium work is so high sometimes an insert will only be used for one or two passes and then has to be replaced. These tools still have 90% or better of their tool life left and so these are the ones I and my buddy Ratshooter use. Will see if I can bag up a dozen or so bags of these used inserts that I can send out to you guys to try. Dennis ------- Re: Carbide Cutters Posted by: "Tucker Tomlinson" tuckertomlinsonx~xxgmail.com Date: Fri Jan 9, 2015 10:53 am ((PST)) Always fascinating to hear about your shop Dennis. I'm usually pretty happy taking repeated measures and test fits to sneak up on a desired tolerance, but it's pretty stunning to hear what a professional outfit can do these days. I'm sure you could do in minutes a job that takes me hours, and maintain higher tolerances while doing so. One advantage I see to the HSS tooling is for beginners and hobbyists. With HSS I can grab a couple of blanks and toy around with how different cutter geometry works for different metals just by regrinding till I find a geometry that gives me what I'm looking for. That said, the carbide does everything else so much better I've been slowly working my way towards carbide for my primary tooling. Cheers ------- Re: Carbide Cutters Posted by: "David Carne" chukka02x~xxtiscali.co.uk siempre02 Date: Fri Jan 9, 2015 3:39 pm ((PST)) Dennis, I was under the impression that carbide inserts were meant to use a high cutting speed and although I use them on my lathe they do not work at anywhere near their design speeds. However I am not disputing what your friend Ratshooter has achieved and will try one of my lathe tools. Regards David ------- Re: Carbide Cutters Posted by: "dennis Turk" dennis.turk2x~xxfrontier.com dturkcars Date: Fri Jan 9, 2015 5:02 pm ((PST)) When you say not fast enough you’re talking about the old cemented carbide lathe tool bits with a chuck of carbide silver soldered on the end of a piece of steel. Yes these were really blunt instruments but today’s inserts will work at any speed. Slow or fast. I use only carbide inserts on me 8 1/2 inch Dalton lathe that has a top speed of maybe 800 rpm. We get wonderful finishes on that little lathe using insert tooling. Fact I don’t think we have a piece of HSS tooling in that shop other than taps and drills. Even on our little Rockwell milling machine we use just carbide. Kind of gotten spoiled over the years having it so readily available to me. Dennis ------- Re: Carbide Cutters Posted by: dennis.turk2x~xxfrontier.com dturkcars Date: Sat Jan 17, 2015 7:17 am ((PST)) Check out the photo section I just put up three new pictures. Two are of my finished Atlas shaper that is now in place at my hobby shop in Florence Oregon. The third picture is of a piece of hot rolled steel we machined this last week using a carbide insert tool I had been using on my Dalton lathe. If you look close you can see the reflection of the insert in the surface of the just machined steel. Dennis ------- Re: Carbide Cutters Posted by: dozierhcx~xxaol.com dozierhc Date: Sat Jan 17, 2015 6:29 pm ((PST)) Dennis.. Great job on the shaper! If mine looks half as good as that one when I'm done I'll be happy. I am presently hand scraping the cheap green paint off mine and prepping parts to give them a good industrial enamel. That and examining and replacing worn parts where I find them. Have a question on the carbide toolholder. What is the width and height of that holder? Did you have to make a special lantern post to hold it in the shaper clapper, or does it fit a stock Atlas lantern? I guess brand would be nice information if you happen to remember it. Thanks, Hank Dozier ------- Re: Carbide Cutters Posted by: "dennis Turk" dennis.turk2x~xxfrontier.com dturkcars Date: Sat Jan 17, 2015 9:25 pm ((PST)) Forget about the paint scraper just get a couple of cans of Mr. Muscle oven cleaner and melt the paint off. Dennis ------- Re: Carbide Cutters Posted by: "dennis Turk" dennis.turk2x~xxfrontier.com dturkcars Date: Fri Jan 23, 2015 9:08 am ((PST)) On Sun, Jan 18, 2015, 'dennis Turk' wrote: > Hi Hank Forgot your other question. As to the tool holders I am using they are 3/8 square shank insert tools I use on my Dalton 8 ½ inch lathe that is equipped with an OXA size quick change tool post. These I got from Little Machine Shop. They use the 35 and 55 and 80 degree inserts and are ¼ inch IC. We use a lot of this size insert at my business so I have a steady supply of used ones though I did steal a few new ones some time agoJ I have a 3/8 by ¾ by 1 inch spacer I use under the square head bolt in the tool holder on the clapper box. One nice thing using these tools you get the maximum use of your shaper as far as what size work piece you can put in the vice. With these tools you keep the cutting insert very close to the clapper box so you get maximum strength. There is no way I would use an Armstrong tool holder on any of my lathes nor would I ever use one on a Shaper. They take up too much room, too flimsy and in the case of lathes the most non-rigid tool holder you can use. These old tool holders are the reason we see so many compounds on lathes damaged. If I did not have these tool holders where my shaper is at, I would invest in some ½ or even 5/8 square shank tool holders and machine these down in width to fit the lantern tool post on the clapper box. Reason being is these use 3/8 IC size inserts that would be more appropriate for a shaper. At my business we use some very high positive 3/8 IC inserts that will remove metal at a fantastic rate. On a shaper you could take deeper cuts faster feeds and put less strain on the shaper power train. < Hi Guys The one day this week I was at my business I spent some time looking at some of the new insert holders to see if we could find a couple of styles that would be well suited to the shaper. With modifications of course. What I have ordered is two holders one for 3/8 IC high positive 35 degree inserts. The other one is a negative rake ½ inch IC holder. Now usually I don’t like negative rake inserts other than on very heavy duty cutting machines like I have at my MFG facility. But I found some inserts we are now using that though they are negative rake they are shaped to have a high positive relief angle. So I ordered a holder for these inserts. I also found in the McMaster Carr catalog quite reasonable priced tool holders. I believe one was just over $50 and the other one was like $57 but will have to check on that. I am going up to work today (it's payday and they still let me pass out checksJ) and the holders are there. Now these holders I ordered have a 3/4 square; chance so they will have to be machined down to a thickness of 7/16 so they will fit in the lantern tool post at least on the Atlas they will. Not sure about other brands but can also check my SB but I think it’s the same size tool holder. Now McMaster Carr also has the same holders in 3/8 and 1/2 square shank for a little less money. I think the 1/2 inch one was around $47 and the 3/8 was a little less than that. All three would be OK on your shaper but I chose the 3/4 so I did not have to use such a large shim under the locking screw. I have also picked out a couple of what I think will be terrific inserts. Now I picked the holders style and insert angle for a reason. The cutting edge of the insert will be directly in the center of the clapper box or in the center of the tool holder. Most of the insert tool holders place the insert off to the right or left of center and my concern was this would impart a fairly significant twisting motion into the clapper box and I don’t think these little machines will like that. You guys that have much larger shapers it should not make any difference at all to them. With this style of holder and insert the angle is 40 degrees on each side of the insert so moving in either direction the angle of the insert to the work piece will be the same. I use these inserts on all my lathes for chamfering tools and always have one in my tool holder. One other thing to think about with using inserts, they come in different nose radiuses so I have picked inserts with rather large nose radiuses as that is what we usually use on a shaper when we hand grind a tool. The picture you seen in the photo section of the finish on the chunk of hot rolled steel was with a tool that had a very small nose radius of I think .005. When we cut that piece of steel you see we fed down .015 and a step over of .002. We actually were getting some light gold to blue chips off the shaper. Now if the feed is correct and the insert is of proper shape for the job, most of the heat from cutting will in fact go out with the chip not into your work piece. You guys would not believe what we do with our NL 3000 Mori Sieki lathe. We put a 3 inch diameter hole through 9 inches of 402 Stainless steel. We do it in one pass, no pecking, but the secret is 1000 psi high pressure through the tool coolant 40 hp on the spindle and 3500 pounds of force on the tool. That is, by the way, only 80% of the capacity of the machine. We drill this hole using a four 1/2 IC insert drill with high positive inserts. Now here is the kicker. We drill this hole in 73 to 76 seconds. It’s amazing to watch. I know Glen will know what I am talking about as he has seen the machine. One of the secrets of machining on modern machines today is tool geometry, high pressure through the tool coolant, and HP. With these inserts, if things are working correctly, the cutting edge of the insert only touches the work piece the instant it contacts the metal. Once the cut starts the material starts to separate ahead of the cutting edge of the insert. When you look at the wear pattern on the insert you will see wear behind the cutting edge but the edge itself will look like new. They actually have been able to video this and have seen it. Dennis the long winded old fart out in Oregon. ------- Re: Carbide Cutters Posted by: dozierhcx~xxaol.com dozierhc Date: Sat Jan 24, 2015 11:43 am ((PST)) Dennis... Not looking for a "care package" of insert cutters and holders, but if you have time, it might be nice to post a file with part numbers and sources for the inserts and tool holders for us. A brief description of the insert type and its types of usage would be really beneficial. That way we can get our own setups for use as we need them. Thanks for letting us know about this new tech for our old machines. Hank Dozier ------- Re: Carbide Cutters Posted by: "dennis Turk" dennis.turk2x~xxfrontier.com dturkcars Date: Sat Jan 24, 2015 3:45 pm ((PST)) As I go through the inserts I have stolen from work I will put together what holders I used and what inserts. I did look around on eBay this morning and you can get just about anything you need there and for better prices than from a tool house most of the time. I will not be back down to my coast shop for a couple of weeks so will not have a chance to try some of these till then. I do have an Atlas and a SB shaper on display at work but lord help me if I get steel chips in the carpet the house cleaners will fry meJ Dennis ------- Sharpening lathe cutting tools [sherline] Posted by: clarnibassx~xxyahoo.com clarnibass Date: Thu Jan 15, 2015 3:48 am ((PST)) Hi. I'm wondering what's the best way to sharpen lathe cutting tools such as a regular HSS bits, without a grinder or other motor tool? I need to do it by hand or with my dental micromotor. Using the front of a diamond grinding wheel (on the micromotor) to try to sharpen the edges didn't seem to work so great. I don't use them much so it's the first time I need to do this. Going to a place that will have a grinder, etc. is much more hassle than just buying a new tool so I hope there's a simple method I could use. Thanks! ------- Re: Sharpening lathe cutting tools Posted by: jowhowhox~xxyahoo.com jowhowho Date: Thu Jan 15, 2015 6:04 am ((PST)) You need power and mass to shape those bits. I tried being cheap and it was really slow, hot, dirty work. Get a cheap bench grinder ($50) and a "KO lee universal grinding fixture". There are cheap chinese knockoff grinding fixtures ($100) -- they are nice and heavy. The bits grind fast and relatively cool. You'll need a "dirty work" area -- the gritty dust goes everywhere. Wear your safety glasses and dust mask. The bench grinder and the grinding fixture are both pretty handy tools, you will probably find yourself using them for many other things. If you are just touching the bits up, a diamond hone and a chisel sharpening jig will work. ------- Re: Sharpening lathe cutting tools Posted by: clarnibassx~xxyahoo.com clarnibass Date: Thu Jan 15, 2015 8:06 am ((PST)) Thanks. Cost isn't a problem, space is. I don't have space even for the tiniest grinder. This is why I'm wondering if there's a way to do it without a grinder or if I should just buy a new one. I would need to sharpen my cutting tools no more than once a year probably (I use them very little). ------- Re: Sharpening lathe cutting tools Posted by: "David Underwood" dave.underwoodx~xxsympatico.ca Date: Thu Jan 15, 2015 8:08 am ((PST)) Here's the method I use: http://toolingaround.ca/ltsj.html I'm a member of a small group of machining hobbyists, most of whom do not have a mill. Generally, those who don't have a mill do have a milling attachment for their lathe. At one of our recent meetings, we demonstrated how to make one of these jigs on a lathe, using a milling attachment. It's a matter of using a shim in the milling attachment's vise to get the desired angle and a milling cutter in a collet (although a chuck would do, in a pinch). The resulting jig was then used on the lathe cross slide. You can do your sharpening using a drill press to spin the disk, but this will only be satisfactory if you're able to make minute, controlled adjustments to the spindle height. Here's another thought. One of our members showed his sharpening jig, which he made on his table saw, using a block of hard maple. Yes, he simply cut threads for the grub screws in the maple and it works just fine. I didn't photograph these alternative methods, so they aren't on my web site. However, put on your thinking cap and I'm sure you can come up with a way to make a jig, should you decide to use this approach. We're not talking about heavy duty, production use here. Use your imagination and materials at hand and you can probably some up with something that will work fine. The advantages of using this jig (or something similar) include low noise and vibration, repeatibility of cutting angles and the ability to grind carbide-tipped tools. I don't experience dust flying about, just a little bit of material that lands on a sheet of paper that I place under the grinding jig. Dave Underwood ------- Re: Sharpening lathe cutting tools Posted by: jlkiefferx~xxcharter.net n2562001 Date: Thu Jan 15, 2015 2:40 pm ((PST)) Name ?? It is unclear from your message if you are an experienced machinist or what kind of work you are doing. So I will assume that it is general machining. If so, HSS lathe tooling especially if seldom used is not a good choice in my opinion of course. If there is one thing that impedes skill development in most cases, it is HSS Lathe tooling. Each time it is free hand sharpened, (That is often) it exhibits different cutting characteristics requiring a new set of skills to master its efficient use. Not to mention time consuming setup after sharpening each time. It is also limited to free machining materials. One exception would be that HSS is generally ideal for form tooling that of course requires a grinder. To avoid these issues, my personal preference is the use of Brazed carbide tooling (Not to be confused with insert tooling) for the following reasons. * They will machine all types of machinable materials from the softest to the hardest and smallest to largest. * In a Sherline Lathe, AR-4, AL-4 and E-4 shapes will perform almost all work performed with lathe tools. * When experienced in their use, they typically will perform without sharpening for over a hundred hours and are then typically replaced. * Since each tool is shaped identical and performs identical to the last, skill development is much more rapid. This in turn would eliminate your need for grinding and give a greater level of efficiency. One caution: To experience these benefits the tools need to be of the highest quality of USA or European manufacture. Those from China and India are completely useless as side by side in use comparison demonstrates. Jerry Kieffer ------- Re: Sharpening lathe cutting tools Posted by: chieftoolmakerx~xxearthlink.net glicker31 Date: Fri Jan 16, 2015 1:08 am ((PST)) Mr. Good Buddy, normally, I agree with your posts. In this case, I'd like to raise a point. If anyone follows your suggestion, they will not have the opportunity to learn off hand grinding. To purchase a small bench grinder will not put a dent in a budget. To have a handy water container nearby is required. Safety Goggles, of course. I have HSS toolbits. And your suggested brazed carbide lathe tool bits. And carbide insert tool holders and bits to fit. Also Diamond inserts. All get used for various jobs. Best Regards, Happy New Year, Jerry G (Glickstein aka Mr. Chief ( or You Know Who :) ------- Re: Sharpening lathe cutting tools Posted by: jlkiefferx~xxcharter.net n2562001 Date: Fri Jan 16, 2015 6:12 am ((PST)) Hey Chief, I also have all of the lathe tools you mention plus others such as Ceramic and several various types of grinders. As you mentioned, all are occasionally used but quality brazed carbide being more efficient is used almost all of the time. It is the only thing used in lathe classes since students develop general machining skills with its use far more rapidly than with other lathe tools especially micro machining. In this case, the OP had a desire to use tooling that did not require a grinder and my point was that this was a highly efficient option that did not require a grinder. While I do not know the OP situation, I can easily understand possible concerns after having seen apartment shops as small as 2' X 1.5' in the UK. Your Buddy ------- Re: Sharpening lathe cutting tools Posted by: "Steve Wan" stewanx~xxgmail.com wanstevex~xxymail.com Date: Thu Jan 15, 2015 9:26 pm ((PST)) Hi Cal. If your lathe tool bit has the basic ground base, you can use a hand power tabletop hand grinder to remove a few micro to sharpen. I have been doing that for a long time. A quick and easy way. Even a HSS boring cutter can be applied the same way. Don't think Sherline group fashion my way of grinding. Keeping traditional machining alive. Steve Wan ------- Re: Sharpening lathe cutting tools Posted by: "Steve Wan" stewanx~xxgmail.com wanstevex~xxymail.com Date: Fri Jan 16, 2015 1:26 am ((PST)) Hi buddy! Long time no chat :) I have 2 electric bench grinders, too troublesome for light grinding. (clean and unpack) So resort to hand turn grinder like the flintstone cartoon. Happy New Year too though middle of Jan 2015 already. Steve W. ------- Re: Sharpening lathe cutting tools Posted by: "JERRY G" chieftoolmakerx~xxearthlink.net glicker31 Date: Fri Jan 16, 2015 11:15 am ((PST)) Hi Buddy Steve W.Happy New Year can happen anytime.Good for 365 days.So, Happy New Year to you and yours. Very visual picture with your description. "Long time no chat"? I am presently acutely aware of my age and advancing years. I have therefore immersed myself in making all the ship models I have on hand. (Like many other ship modelers, I have stockpiled a lot of kits....Keeps me off the streets and out of trouble. (Except with Henny, of course!!!! Jerry G (Glickstein) ------- Re: Sharpening lathe cutting tools Posted by: holmes_ca_2000x~xxyahoo.com holmes_ca_2000 Date: Fri Jan 16, 2015 2:49 am ((PST)) Clarnibass, you don't have room in the shop?, what about outside the shop in the fresh air, do you have room there, or are you in a cupboard, seeing as money is not a problem for you, buy a good grinder, plug it in with an extension cord and grind your tools out in the open, buy some carbide as Jerry K suggests to get you going, and practice grinding your hss toolbits, then you will have the best of both worlds. Edmund Alberta ------- Re: Sharpening lathe cutting tools Posted by: "Tom & Judy Bank" trbank1x~xxverizon.net eimcr28 Date: Sat Jan 17, 2015 8:13 am ((PST)) Just one thing that hasn't been mentioned about carbide lathe bits that should be called to the attention of novices: Unlike HSS, that can take a lot of abuse, ALWAYS retract any carbide lathe bit before moving it without power or, as in single point threading, reversing the lathe spindle's direction. When I got my Sherline Threading Setup, several decades back, I misunderstood the directions that came with the set. They said something about never disengaging the setup between cuts. I thought that meant I should cut, reverse the spindle handle to return to the starting point, advance the bit, and cut again. The Threading Kit included a brazed carbide tool bit, and as you can guess, when I went to make the second pass I found the bit had lost its tip. Since I was new to machining and didn't have a foreman or instructor watching over my shoulder to swat me on the back of the head, I bought several additional bits and sent them straight to carbide heaven before I figured out that Sherline's directions just meant DON'T DISENGAGE THE CROSS SLIDE FROM THE SPINDLE between cuts. And as I said above, ALWAYS retract any carbide lathe bit before moving it without power or, as in single point threading, reversing the lathe spindle's direction. (And yes, good practice with HSS as well, especially when the spindle direction is reversed.) Your grateful student ( . . . both of youse), Tom Bank ------- Re: Sharpening lathe cutting tools Posted by: chieftoolmakerx~xxearthlink.net glicker31 Date: Sat Jan 17, 2015 9:24 am ((PST)) Let me add one more thing, Tom Re: Lathe Cutting Tools. Always back off any carbide tool bit (brazed tip, insert) BEFORE moving it, from contact with the work. Due to deflection and spring in the work piece. And/or tool. If you don't you will find a chipped or broken cutting tip/edge. Jerry G (Glickstein) (No trimming in order to maintain continuity) ------- Re: Carbide Cutters [Metal_Shapers] Posted by: pduselx~xxsprintmail.com pdusel Date: Sun Jan 25, 2015 10:30 am ((PST)) Just a question. I've heard shapers can make a surface that's easier/ better to scrape into shape for a working surface. Would the carbide inserts make a better surface finish on cast iron than HSS? Would a surface machined this way, assuming the shaper is shaping flat surfaces, take less work to set up/scrape? Just a thought, Pete ------- Re: Carbide Cutters Posted by: "dennis Turk" dennis.turk2x~xxfrontier.com dturkcars Date: Sun Jan 25, 2015 10:56 am ((PST)) Hi Pete In the last 20 years of restoring old antique machines scraping has been a common denominator in all I have restored. I use a carbide dovetail cutter when I am working on lathe cross slides compounds and mill tables and or knees. This type of tool leaves a radial or swirl pattern in the flat ways. Depending on the condition of my cutter and the bearings in my mill I can get a really good finish that is easy to scrape in, or in the case of the mill I have now that really needs new spindle bearings, I get a rougher finish and is much more difficult to scrape. With what little I have done on a shaper the finish I get on steel or cast iron is very smooth and though I have not reconditioned a slide way on a shaper the surface you would get would be a piece of cake to scrape. We have a Profalometer at my business so soon as I get back to my coast shop and try the new insert holders I will let you guys know what kind of surface finish I am getting. The one we did a couple of weeks ago using one of my Dalton tool holders and a piece of cold rolled steel we got somewhere between a 12 and 18 surface finish. Best way to explain this is a 2 is a mirror. Usually the best finish you can get with the bottom of and end mill is about a 32. Little better with the side of the milling cutter. On a good lathe or a CNC lathe with modern insert tooling we have recorded surface finishes down to a 4 on Molybdenum or pure Molly. We work a lot of titanium also and we have to have an 8 finish on these electron microscope lens elements so a lathe will give you nearly as good a finish as a surface grinder will. Dennis ------- Re: Carbide Cutters Posted by: "Paolo Amedeo" machineshopx~xxmedeo.net paolo_kaboom Date: Sun Jan 25, 2015 11:40 am ((PST)) Two partially-unrelated comments. First, one big, often forgotten merit of shapers and planers is to machine a piece introducing much less stress in the machined piece, compared to mills. An anecdote that I learned on the SheldonLathe group from John Knox, who worked as engineer at Sheldon for many years, till the end of the company, is that they cut all their taper gibs on shapers. The process was rather slow, but the final product good, needing practically no scraping. Time to time, somebody would come up with a plan to replace the shapers and machining the gibs in a "more practical way". Tests would be performed and, any single time the shapers would win, thanks to less rejection rate and less time required to fit the new gibs to the machines. Second, I believe that the amount of stress and quality of the finish that is being obtained is more in function of the geometry and sharpness of the tool, rather than the material from which is made. At Tuckahoe (http://tuckahoesteam.org/) we recently re-cut a worn 13" South Bend lathe bed using our Rockford planer. The guy leading the project decided to build a special tool with two carbide inserts forming a 90° angle, in order to cut both sides of the inverted V ways at once. The inserts have negative rake angle. After a relatively steep learning curve, we managed to obtain a decent finish. On my opinion, there is somehow an extra challenge in using a negative rake angle tool in a shaper or a planer: the tool needs more downward pressure to cut, while a positive rake tool is somehow "pulled into the cut": watch out for backlash in the clapper box slide, gib tension and locking. Moreover my concern would also be in relation to the rigidity of the machine: more the ram is extended, more it will flex upward under the resistance of the tool trying to float over the surface to be cut, resulting in a concave surface with a nice finish. Paolo Damascus, MD PS If anybody is interested, here are some pictures and videos of the lathe bed on our planer: http://tinyurl.com/nxhw7dm https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QW17jwEhUa8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xl5WunGoDUQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NratjqcZ2GM ------- Re: Carbide Cutters Posted by: "Ian Newman" ian_newx~xxyahoo.com ian_new Date: Sun Jan 25, 2015 3:36 pm ((PST)) Hi Pete, The best attribute of the shaper/planer is that they use "lathe" type tooling that is much easier to produce and to sharpen than a milling cutter. The surface finish issue covers flatness and roughness. Scraping is of interest in applications where surfaces move across each other which requires well fitted parts (flat or curved surfaces) with some degree of roughness to trap oil for lubrication. Too fine a surface (e.g. lapped) will result in parts wringing. All the best, Ian ------- Sharpening tool bits. [sherline] Posted by: bharlessx~xxq.com rocketwiz80214 Date: Mon Jul 20, 2015 4:11 am ((PDT)) I wondered if anyone has made a holder for sharpening your 1/4" square tool bits. I've done mine by hand but they are not consistent. Seems like you would need to adjust it in three axises to get all the angles. What I'm thinking is something to hold the bit so you could use the lathe table to run it up against a diamond disk in the lathe, or a high speed die grinder. ------ Re: Sharpening tool bits. Posted by: "Stan Stocker" skstockerx~xxcomcast.net stanstocker Date: Mon Jul 20, 2015 4:35 am ((PDT)) Greetings, This is a subject that google can provide many answers for. Most affordable grinders have tool rests that suck, many folks have build rests that tilt, twist, spin, flip, and do all sorts of tricks. For a quite simple approach, you might have a look at: http://www.mechanicalphilosopher.com/kbsharpening.pdf This is a cute little fixture with drawings used for setting up the angles easily, just flip 90 degrees and do a little fixturing for lathe use. You'll still want to hog out the basic shape on a plain old heavy grinder, but this will let you put on a nice finish with consistent angles. Google on tool and cutter grinder to get all sorts of ideas and then decide how far you want or need to go down the path to precision grinding in the home shop madness :-) Have fun, Stan ------- Re: Sharpening tool bits. Posted by: bharlessx~xxq.com rocketwiz80214 Date: Mon Jul 20, 2015 11:11 am ((PDT)) Thanks, That was what I was looking for. Not quite but it gives me some ideas of how I can make the one I need. I'll post whatever I come up with. ------- Finer feeds [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: "Paul J. Ste. Marie" taigx~xxste-marie.org pstemari Date: Tue Sep 1, 2015 9:24 am ((PDT)) >>If I get that late 12, I'll certainly be looking back to the recent >>discussion about how to reduce all the feedscrew speeds by 1/2, >>thus getting a finer fine feed. Speaking of finer fine feed, I discovered after a lot of experimentation that the feed rate is not the real issue with getting a smooth finish on this machine. The problem is rigidity and tooling. Carbide inserts seem to skip and catch when using larger radius corners (eg TCMT 322 inserts), and leave the usual fine grooves with a small radius corner. I've tried TCMT 321, TCMT 3(2.5)1, and the latheinserts.com CCGT 32.51 inserts. Amazon has a steal on the TCMT 3(2.5)1, $22 for a box of 10 Sandvik inserts, http://amzn.com/B0040QDM1O I've had a heck of a time with HSS bits, the shapes that I'm used to using on the Taig don't seem to work as well on this machine. What DID work well, after roughing with carbide, was a weird thing from one of the mrpete222 videos. 1/2" M42 bit, ground with a curved edge like a thumbnail, with ~60 degrees negative side rake, and 10-12 degrees of front rake and front clearance. The tool, honed and polished, shaves off very fine swarf with a shearing action. It can only take off about 0.001" per pass *max*, but it can also shave off a few tenths. The downside is that the swarf is really, really nasty stuff. Tiny needles about 0.05" long, 0.001" diameter, and sharp as can be. It embeds itself in your skin at the slightest touch, as well as your shirt if you aren't very careful sweeping it up. ------- ------------------------------------------------------------------ This is just one of some 80 files about machining and metalworking and useful workshop subjects that can be read at: http://www.janellestudio.com/metal/index.html ------------------------------------------------------------------