Here find many useful tips on using cutters, collets and arbors. This file on cutters, collets and arbors is a bit of a catch-all, as a conversations on any one of these subjects routinely roamed into other areas. I am using the term "cutter" to include milling bits as well as lathe and shaper bits. And there is advice on sharpening bits. One reason the subject of cutters is mixed with collets is because of the recurring discussion as to whether a collet should be used to hold an endmill. (Yes? No? Read on.) What are the differences and advantages of the many kinds of collet systems? Lots of good information here. The first message deals with threadmills, which are not common except in industry. The rest of this file contains much more everyday-type information that home machinists can put to good use. If you got to this file directly from my HOME PAGE, return there by using your browser's back button. BUT if you came to this file as the result of a web search engine, see more than 70 additional files on my home page Machining and Metalworking at Home http://www.janellestudio.com/metal/ SAFETY WARNING BEWARE: DO NOT ASSUME that any subject matter or procedure or process is safe or correct or appropriate just because it was mentioned in a news/user group or was included in these files or on this site or on any other web site or was published in a magazine or book or video. Working with metals and machinery and chemicals and electrical equipment is inherently dangerous. Wear safety devices and clothing as appropriate. Remove watches, rings, and jewellery -- and secure or remove loose clothing -- before operating any machine. Read, understand and follow the latest operating procedures and safety instructions provided by the manufacturer of your machine or tool or product. 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(c) Copyright 2003 - 2010 Machining and Metalworking at Home The form of the collected work in this text file (including editing, additions, and notes) is copyrighted and this file is not to be reproduced by any means, including electronic, without written permission except for strictly personal use. ============================================================================ Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2001 20:43:26 -0800 From: "Marcus & Eva" Subject: Threadmills: Make your own >Threadmills are available from machine shop supply/ industrial >tooling places. Can be expensive. You can make one from the 'Keyslot' >cutter dremel sells. chuck it in a lathe, and 'grind its' periphery >to 60 degrees included angle. May be easier to make one from scratch >and harden/temper with a torch/oven. Hi All: Did you guys know you can turn high speed steel round blanks on the lathe? I keep seeing exotic recommendations for making cutters out of O1 and other high carbon steels, and hardening them after machining. Try necking down a 1/2" HSS blank (yes you can do it easily on a Sherline), leaving a 0.075 wide bit on the end. (like a small tee slot cutter without the teeth.) Then turn a 30 degree flank on each side, so you end up with a 60 degree included angle disc-shaped end on the blank with say a 0.350 diameter shank 1.0" long. Now grind a single gash across the disc, right on center. Freehand relief grind the underside of the cutter until you are within 0.020" or so of the cutting edge you created when you cut the gash. Stone the relief the rest of the way. This will give you a truly great threadmill (admittedly single point though) which will double in a pinch as a thread boring bar for the lathe. I always make them left hand. That way, when I'm cutting an internal thread, I run the lathe in reverse for a right hand thread. Now the tool will back out of the bore during a cut, so it's way less frightening to cut the thread. I can engage the halfnuts with the thread dial as usual, but I don't have to crap myself about stopping the cut at the right moment to avoid plowing into a shoulder. The cutter will run out into the air. When I run an external thread (if it's a short one) I can use the same tool, feeding it exactly the same way as any other threading tool. For threadmilling, I just chuck the cutter in a 1/2" collet and run the spindle in reverse. I set the start and end point order and the helical code orientation so I get a climb cut with the correct handedness for the finished thread.This means that sometimes I start the thread at the bottom. Climb cutting gives me a better finish and tends to be kinder to the cutter as well. Cheers Marcus ------- Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2001 00:23:02 -0800 From: "Marcus & Eva" Subject: Re: Threadmills: Make your own Hi Alan: The gash removes about a quarter of the circle. One face will be parallel to the long axis and coincident with the center of the blank. The other will be oriented at whatever angle you applied the blank to the grinding wheel. You can grind away as much of the vee shaped disc portion of the cutter as you like: I normally take away the whole back half, and a good portion of the underside. That leaves me with about a quarter circle to grind a relief on, and allows the cutter to sneak into a half inch bore even if it is not perfectly centered. If you want me to send you a picture offline, give me a nudge. Cheers Marcus ------- Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2001 03:49:01 -0000 From: ballendox~xxyahoo.com Subject: Re: re:dremel mount In sherline, on Wed, 07 Feb 2001, Thomas Gilmour wrote: > >What are threadmills used for? "Charlie Lear" wrote:> They're for extherthithing, thilly! Cheerth Charlie Thomas: Threadmills are used for "milling threads". If you look at the drawings posted with your original question, you see the vee shape of the cutter (single vee, or multiple vees). You insert this into a hole, and then move it "out" towards the hole interior surface until the (60 degrees, or other thread shape)vee(s) are cutting; then make a HELICAL motion, where the downward (or upward) motion per revolution is equal to the thread pitch you want to cut. If you have a 'single vee' cutter, you keep cutting circles until the number of threads you want are done. With the multiple vee threadmill, you cut many threads in one "circle" of helical movement. Hope this helps. Ballendo ------- Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2001 11:05:05 -0600 (CST) From: Tom Benedict Subject: Re: Digest Number 267 First off, my apologies for hitting this so late. My home machine has been down for the last few weeks while my wife and I re-arrange our house so my son will have a bedroom by the time he's born. So I haven't read mail for WEEKS. (I'm in withdrawal.) But it has meant for some good time out in the shop. ;) On Mon, 22 Jan 2001, Andrew Werby wrote: > [Thanks for your help, Robin and Tom. I thought of this, but how does > one hold onto these collets while machining them? Robin, you're right- > I'm about at the limit of what I can do without accurate centering. > From Tom's comment, I I think he found it easier to retain the finder > with a set-screw than by slitting it, with which I'd agree, but I'd > appreciate any hints for setting this up.] I used an arbor rather than a collet. I just made up a set of five identical arbors last night, so I can tell you how I did that. When I bought my Taig I bought ten blank arbors. I have two left. Last night I grabbed five, and did the following to all of them: I carefully cleaned the spindle and the back of the arbor, and threaded it on, making sure it seated squarely and solidly (no swarf or junk behind it to throw it off-center). Center-drilled and drilled to one fractional size under 3/8". In retrospect, it probably would've been better to drill through with a smaller drill because my 3/8" drill doesn't have the best tip on it. The cutting edges are sharp, but it doesn't center-cut well. Chucked up a 3/8" reamer in the tailstock, and with the lathe running as slowly as possible, reamed it out to 3/8". (I highly recommend getting a set of reamers if you don't have them. I don't use them every day, but when you need one they're hard to d owithout.) At this point your procedure may vary. SOMEHOW you want to put a threaded hole in the side of the arbor. You can do this with v-blocks and a drill press, or you can do it with a vise and a vertical mill, or you can use the rotary stage on the mill, or... It's up to you. I *do* recommend that you do it as accurately as possible, whatever option you choose. With the five I did last night, I haven't drilled the set-screws yet. The reason I'm making five is that I want to permanently mount all of my end mills in their own arbors. That'll let me mount them so they're all as close to identical height as possible. That way I can swap from an edgefinder to a mill (without set-screws), set the surface height, and change from end mill to end mill (without set-screws), and not have to re-indicate the surface. I'm going to finish them tonight using the rotary stage on the CNC mill. I'm planning on machining a nice grippy surface on the threaded end of the arbor, drill and tap the set-screw hole, and then engrave the size of the mill on them. Not strictly necessary, but why not? Tom ------- From: Tony Jeffree [mailto:tonyx~xxjeffree.co.uk] Sent: Wednesday, January 31, 2001 4:30 PM To: taigtoolsx~xxyahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [taigtools] Plastools Indexable insert holder At 15:56 31/01/01 -0500, you wrote: >Nicholas and Stan, Thanks for your help. Stan, I will try your suggestions >in regards to cutting speeds. I will also try a 221 insert, since that has >a 1/64 nose radius as opposed to the 1/32 radius of the 222. I've had very good results on my Taig using holders that take the smaller Sandvik and Sumitomo inserts, but with rather smaller tip radii than those you mention - 0.1mm and 0.2mm (for comparison, 1/64" is a gnat's hair under 0.4mm). I have tried 0.4mm tip radius inserts & found that they don't work very well on the Taig - tough to get a decent cut, as you described. If you can go down a size or two from 1/64th it might prove worthwhile. Regards, Tony ------- Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2001 21:47:25 -0800 From: "Kory Hamzeh" Subject: RE: Endmill in collet? > Can I hold an endmill in a collet? I've heard it done that way, but I've never tried it. Here are plans for an easy to build end mill holder: http://home.rmci.net/deanw/shop.html. Kory ------- Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2001 05:50:01 -0000 From: "tauseef" Subject: Re: Endmill in collet? Hey Eric: Yeah you can use a collet to hold your endmill as long as it's 1/4" and you have the drawbolt for it. You don't need the "endmill holder" like the 3/8" one sherline sells. I use a 1/8" and 3/16" collet often. Endmill holders and collets are fine but don't use a chuck for holding them. Also try to keep the endmill as short as possibe to keep it rigid (can cut the endmill in half with a dremel cutoff wheel if its double sided and material allows--keep the endmill cool). later tauseef ------- Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2001 10:10:43 -0800 From: "Kory Hamzeh" Subject: RE: Re: Endmill in collet? A collet WILL work. As a matter of fact, holding an end mill in a collect will give you more accurate results because end mill holders have a much larger run-out than collects (almost none). However, if you make aggressive cuts with the end mill in a collect holder, you can cause the collect to spin and possibly crack it. Like I said in the original reply, I've never used a collect to hold an end mill, but I've heard other have and some have spun the collect and cracked it. The set screw in the end mill holder hold the end mill in place. Kory ------- Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 04:27:50 -0000 From: "tauseef" Subject: Re: Endmill in collet? Hi kory and dean thanks for the info and thank you Dean for the address again..I really like your pages! Interesting stuff! I also made a cutoff tool holder but really like yours also. Kory, I would think one must be really machining aggressivly as you mentioned to crack the sherline collet! I would think the endmill would crack first. Spining it, maybe, but they are held in very tightly with little pressure from the drawbolt. Personally, I use them most of the time and like them more than the 3/8" holder. They are much smaller, go into the spindle and the only thing sticking out is the short endmill. The only thing that can be a problem is get them out but a samll tap on the drawbolt is usually only needed. Each has its purpose but if ever need give a collet a try you might like them. later tauseef ------- Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 10:02:40 -0600 (CST) From: Tom Benedict Subject: Re: Reducing 1/2" HSS shank On Tue, 13 Feb 2001, Jim Lewis wrote: > Has anyone turned down a HSS shank using a carbide cutter on the Taig > lathe? It seems like pushing the limits of the Taig and I don't want > to break anything. Also not sure how deep to cut each pass. The > purpose is to adapt a tool to the mill which is limited to 1/4" > shanks, unless someone has a better method. Thanks. When you say HSS, do you mean a hardened high speed steel shank? If so, there are a couple of ways I might tackle something like that: First, I'd look at the feasibility of using a blank arbor to make a 1/2" tool arbor. I made one of these for a third-party fly cutter, and it's worked great. (I since decided it would've been only slightly more involved to make the entire fly cutter out of an arbor, something I'm planning on doing once I get some projects finished.) If it looked like I had no choice but to cut the shank down on the lathe, I'd try to remove as much material as I possibly could in some other way. I've got a bench grinder that would get rid of the bulk of the material, leaving only a little to remove to get the 1/2" shank down to 1/4". Failing that a Dremel, Foredom, or other grinder would work, and they'd give me finer control. Once it was roughed down to size, I'd see if I *could* cut it. If it's hardened steel, I'd be inclined to use a toolpost grinder on the lathe to get it down to 1/4". (Be sure to cover as much of your lathe as you possibly can when you're grinding! Grit's NASTY to lathe ways.) If it was case-hardened, the earlier grinding step would have cut past the hardened part, and it might be able to be turned using normal tools. In the end, though, I'd be concerned about having taken a tool that the manufacturer believed to warrant a 1/2" shank, and reduced it by a factor of 4 in cross-section, to a 1/4" shank. Given the choice I'd make an arbor for it. What tool is this, if you don't mind my asking? Tom ------- Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 15:30:25 -0000 From: "Jim Lewis" Subject: Re: Reducing 1/2" HSS shank Hi Tom, thanks for your detailed reply. > When you say HSS, do you mean a hardened high speed steel shank? I meant High Speed Steel - I don't know exactly what it is. > First, I'd look at the feasibility of using a blank arbor to make a > 1/2" tool arbor. I made one of these for a third-party fly cutter, > and it's worked great. Any pix - I'm not sure how it would work. Just a 1/2" hole with a set screw? Taig's arbors are hollow so I don't see how it would be done. > What tool is this, if you don't mind my asking? 3/16 edge grooving tool - looks like tiny radial saw blade. I'm only cutting alum/plastic with it. Jim ------- Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 16:10:25 +0000 From: Tony Jeffree Subject: Re: Re: Reducing 1/2" HSS shank >3/16 edge grooving tool - looks like tiny radial saw blade. I'm only >cutting alum/plastic with it. The "blank arbor" that Tom mentions is basically a piece of 1" diam steel stock, already bored & tapped at one end to fit the Taig spindle nose (3/4-16 thread). The other end is unmachined. Taig sell them for a few bucks each - probably the single most versatile accessory that they make, as there is almost no end to the range of arbors and holders that can be made from them. The blank arbors are made from free cutting steel - very easy to machine. To make up a tool holder of the kind Tom is talking about, what you do is fit a blank arbor on the nose of a Taig lathe & then bore it to fit the tool shank (1/2" in your case), then cross-drill & tap the arbor to take a set screw that will hold the tool in the arbor. Ideally, the boring of the 1/2" hole should be done by axial drilling an undersize hole and then finishing off with a boring bar or a reamer - it is very difficult (if not impossible) to accurately drill a 1/2" hole on axis & to size just using twist drills. The Taig lathe and mill both have the same nose thread, so the completed tool holder can be used on the mill. I have done this successfully for holding 1/2" arbor flycutters and dovetail cutters. Alternatively, why not start from a piece of 1/4" drill rod & machine yourself a cutter instead? Much easier to machine than HSS & can be hardened after machining. Should be just fine for Alu/Plastic cutting. Regards, Tony ------- Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 02:19:01 -0000 From: tgilmourx~xxiname.com Subject: Re: Endmill in collet? Eric: If you want to make endmill holders [for Sherline], Taig Tools sells blank arbors that look like the endmill holders that Sherline sell. They have the same threading as the Sherline spindle, but you have to cut a little off the threaded end using the lathe so they screw onto the spindle far enough. You can screw these onto your spindle and then drill and ream for whatever size needed. They're made of leaded steel so they cut very easily. Taig's URL is taigtools.com and the part is #1130 under 'accessories'. Best of all, they only cost $1.75. I bought a half dozen. Tom ------- Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 09:21:36 -0800 From: "Nicholas Carter and Felice Luftschein" Subject: RE: Re: Endmill in collet? The 1130 is tapped on the end for a #8(?) screw and has a supplied washer. makes it that much easier to make slitting saw arbors, etc. I tend to use the 1132 as I am cheap, and it's not that hard to tap the end. They do machine beautifully. I used them successfully on the Sherline mill, but as others have noted you have to remove a section on the end because of the difference between the Taig and Sherline spindles. If you look on my "picture" page http://www.casco.net/~felice/picture.html there should be many pictures (scattered throughout) of different accessories made with the blank arbor. I even made a boring head from one. See our web pages http://www.casco.net/~felice ------- Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 04:11:05 -0000 From: lasernerdx~xxhotmail.com Subject: Re: Reducing 1/2" HSS shank I agree. Tool bits are made to be used _as_is_. It would be _far_ simpler (no, I don't think "simpler" is a word, but too bad!) and more practical to make the 1/2" tool holder. I recently made a 3/8" and a 1/2" arbor for my mill, and they took less than 30 min each. Total runout on the 3/8" was +/- 0.001, IIRC and that was using a simple reamer. Regards, Robin ------- Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 02:46:26 -0000 From: lasernerdx~xxhotmail.com Subject: Re: Need some help... Jeff: The endmill you received from Nick is made to cut using both the bottom surface, and side surface. It is not tapered, but rather it is straight. As for your comment on how it doesn't look as though it's' meant to produce precise surfaces, I don't understand how you came to this conclusion. It should be a 2 fluted double-ended 0.125" high-speed steel endmill from England. If so, I can assure you it's meant for precise work (I can cut to within about 0.0003" with its 3/16" cousin on my Taig mill). In your last message in reply to Nick, you mentioned a 2" diameter cutter with a 1/2" arbor hole in the middle. This would suggest you have picked out a cutter for a horizontal mill. I would imagin the price for this cutter was quite heafty. This is not what you want. For all purpose cutting, you would want a 2-fluted center-cutting endmill made of high-speed steel, and TiN coated if you can afford it. Idealy, it should be made in the USA, England, Germany, Japan, Switzerland, etc. The inexpensive endmills come from China, Poland, etc and will not last as long as the more expensive ones mentioned above. The most common shank sizes for endmills used on the Taig would be 1/4", 3/8" and 1/2". I would suggest a 3/8" shank size, as this will limit the size of the tool which will reduce the cutting pressure on your machine. A tool with a 1/2" shank is getting pretty big for the Taig mill, and usually, there's no need for such a cutter. The cutter diameter really depends on you. The larger the diameter, the more stable the cutter. However, the price of the cutter does tend to increase as the diameter increases. Also, if you will be using the side of the cutter to cut out more complex shapes (and not just facing) you will be obviously left with a larger radius with a larger cutter. The flute length is also important, as you've already discovered. The longer the flutes, the deeper the cut you can take (that is, you can go deeper on the Z axis while facing with the side of the cutter). However, the longer the flutes, the less stable the cutter is, so you cannot take as heavy cuts. The material of the endmill is not very important at this stage of the game. If you're cutting plastic, aluminum and mild steel for hobby purposes, the HSS uncoated endmills will do fine. If you want your tool to last a bit longer, spend a couple bucks more and get the TiN coated endmill. If you'll be cutting titanium or other very hard exotic materials, you may want to go with indexable or brazed carbide tools, or even solid carbide, although these are very expensive. There is also cobalt steel, and it lies somewhere in between HSS and carbide. Most hobbyists use HSS endmills. The number of flutes doesn't really matter for many applications. However, the more flutes, the faster you can cut, and I believe they're more expensive. Most two fluted endmills are center cutting which means you can plung your cutter like a drill bit (with no pilot hole) and then begin to cut. Some four fluted endmills have this, but not all. I would suggest you get an endmill with center cutting capability. Roughing endmills are _very_ expensive and are generally suited to industrial applications where being able to cut at 500% the speed of HSS saves time and money. For an amateur, they're really a waste of money. Hope this helps, Robin ------- Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 22:51:20 -0800 From: "Nicholas Carter and Felice Luftschein" Subject: Re: Re: Need some help... > Roughing endmills are _very_ expensive and are generally suited to > industrial applications where being able to cut at 500% the speed of > HSS saves time and money. For an amateur, they're really a waste of money. Robin, I disagree heartily! I use a 3/8" and 5/16" roughing endmills often on my Taig mill - I find that the advantage of the roughing endmill is less of a power requirement for the cut - I can take a 1/2" deep pass in Al with the roughing endmill on the Taig mill - something I never thought possible. The chips are smaller and the tool doesn't load up as much. See our web pages http://www.casco.net/~felice ------- Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 14:11:24 -0500 From: Tom Bank Subject: Question for Craig Libuse: Cutting Lathe Bits Craig, one of the crafts on which we in this hobby judge ourselves is the ability to turn out a decent lathe tool bit. When I bought my Sherline lathe some years ago I also got the set of high speed tool bits you offer and a bunch of blanks. I have kept the set of Sherline bits pristine as examples of what my attempts should look like, but try as I might, the ground surfaces of my bits looked more like the sides of Indian arrow heads than the flawlessly smooth surfaces of the examples. The other evening, though, I needed a special shape bit with a curved front. My grinding/sanding/polishing station was not set up with the white aluminum oxide wheel, but rather had a 4" wide aluminum oxide sanding belt on an accessory attachment, so to rush the job through I flipped the switch and applied the bit to the belt. I was amazed by the result. The bit came out with smooth planes and a graceful curve across the front face. It also seemed that the bit stayed cooler as I was working on it. After finishing the first bit and a second that I had been meaning to make, I went back and prettied up a half dozen older bits to get rid of the Hiawatha look. Then when I got up today, I spent the whole morning searching my shop for a never-used attachment that promises to turn my band saw into a narrow belt sander, which I finally found. With it I should be able to cut lathe boring bits and inside threading tools (that at least look) like a master. So now to the question: When making lathe bits at Sherline, do your staff members use a grinding wheel or a belt? And do you have a CNC set-up to cut bits identically or do you free-form them using infinite experience as your guide? I am interested in knowing whether I stumbled onto a common practice or just a method for an amateur like myself to turn out acceptable counterfeits of the masters' products. Regards, Tom Bank ------- Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 21:50:48 -0500 From: "Rich D." Subject: Re: Question for Craig Libuse: Cutting Lathe Bits One more item. If you are going to spend some tens of bucks on a good belt sander and good belts, you may as well spend it on one thing. A diamond wheel. This replaces the usual al-oxide bench grinder wheel (same speed) and cuts HSS, HSS+cobalt and carbides all day long. Glendo and probly others sell these nickle plated diamond imbedded high speed wheels. There are low speed flat disc wheels (laps) also. I use them all along with the white toolmakers wheels. For catalogs: http://www.glendo.com/AF/afpage1.html www.riogrande.com ------- Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 15:51:10 -0500 From: Tom Bank Subject: Re: How to cut T-slots Jerry Jankura wrote: >>I'm planning on making some T-Slots in a piece of aluminum that I want to match those in the Sherline Equipment. I know that the method is to make a straight groove in the metal using a standard 1/4 inch end mill. Once this groove is made, the next step is to use a tool that has a smaller shaft and is able to cut the lower part of the groove wall. What is the tool that I want to use called, and where can it be purchased? << Jerry: It may depend on how much of this T-slot cutting you want to do. I have done limited amounts using a Dremel #199 wheel. I may have preceded that tip with some passes with a #198. It took passes at several heights going down first one side of the 1/4" slot, then over and back following the other wall of the slot. Cheap, since I had the Dremel cutters, but you need to lock the Z axis to get an even cut. The new Sherline Z-axis lock is very handy for this. The took we would like to have is a T-slot cutter, but they usually come with a 1/2" shank. I saw some smaller shanked T-slot cutters at Cabin Fever last month, but couldn't remember what size Sherline uses. Does anyone know of a source for 3/8" shank .395 (dia.) X .095 (wide) T-slot cutters? Again, a second cutter of .300-.325 diameter would help by reducing the amount of metal that was being dug out of the slot in a given pass. ------- Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 17:31:22 -0500 From: ron ginger Subject: Re: Re: How to cut T-slots Make one. A piece of 1/2" drill rod 3 ft long cost about $7, will make a couple dozen cutters. Turn the cuttter to shape, mill the teeth, polish it well, harden it with a propane torch, tempter it back to a straw color. Hone the edges with a stone, or grind them if you are equipped. You really need to learn to make cutters- its one of the realy exciting parts of metal work. I ordered one of each fractional size drill rods, up to 1/2". Mark each rod with a tape flag with its size so you can find them, and so you can remember its drill rod stock and not just common steel. This can make great reamers, boring tools, all manner of special cutters. ron ginger ------- Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 21:56:23 -0000 From: wjw2000x~xxhotmail.com Subject: Re: How to cut T-slots You can find pictures of the Sherline T-slot cutter I made, and the results at the following site: http://www.geocities.com/wjw2000athotmaildotcom/projects.html ------- From: gavin.Eyrex~xxrsl.com Reply-To: sherlinex~xxyahoogroups.com To: sherlinex~xxyahoogroups.com Subject: [sherline] Sharpening Tools Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 14:28:19 -0000 I recently started using steel as the medium I am working in rather than brass. In brass tool life and sharpness wasn't an issue - it seemed that carbide end mill would last forever. The same isnt true in steel - and the mills do loose their edges fairly swiftly. What do I need to purchase to be able to successfully sharpen tools. Please bear in mind that I am an absolute novice when it comes to machining - any assumption of a base level of knowledge would be wrong :-) Thanks Gavin Eyre ------- Hi Gavin, I have been cutting steel, drill rod, 303 stainless, brass and whatever for a long time with HSS with very little need for sharpening. I would suspect you are not using proper speeds and feeds or lubricant. Running an end mill too fast will burn up the edge. As for sharpening there are the Tinker and Quorn cutter grinders as well as others that have been published in the Home Shop Machinist. For the difficulty, time and expense involved to build one it is more economical just to buy new end mills. I have had the Tinker for years in kit form, unbuilt. (Someday I'll build it.) I have my large end mills sent to a commercial grind shop because they are cheaper to sharpen than replace. With smaller end mills, I think it is cheaper to replace smaller mills than to send out. Regards from Les Grenz & the Queen City of the Rockies. AWI 18150 NAWCC 82932 ------- Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 09:26:01 -0000 From: ssmithx~xxserena.com Subject: Re: Small Collets for Sherline Lathe In sherline: > I'm trying to thread (0-80) the end of some .061 stainless steel > shafting using a Sherline 1/16" collet in the headstock, and a die > holder in the tailstock. The shafting keeps turning it the collet > when trying to thread. Does anyone have another source for small > collets that will fix the Sherline lathe. I looking for collets that > are 1/16" and smaller. Bob I have made a 1/16 collet adapter for my 1/8 mill collet. Mill collets have more holding power. I used 1/8 steel rod, drilled the 1/16 hole using my lathe, used a .010 slitting saw to make the 120 degree cuts part way down the rod. You could also make a .061 holder out of larger rod using set screws to hold the rod in the .061 hole of the larger rod and holding the larger rod in the lathe with a collet or chuck. You could also make one out a TAIG blank arbor (#1130 or #1132) which also fits the Sherline spendle, drilling a .061 hole and adding set screws. ------- Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 21:49:03 -0700 From: "Les Grenz" Subject: Re: Mini-Lathe Tooling System For years I have used what I think is the greatest tooling system since sliced bread for the mini lathes. I have used them for 20 years. First on a Unimat 3, then on the Sherline. The tooling is presently sold by Travers. I am taking the information from a 1997/98 catalog. It is called the Unique Tooling System by TTC. It consists of a left and right 5/16" shank tool holder, mini boring bar and cut off tool. The holders use HSS or C5 carbide inserts which are about 2" long. A quick grind on the end of the tool, and a lick and a swipe on the side gives an excellent cutting edge. The insert also has a built in chip breaker along its entire length. No more worries about rake angles. The insert is only 1/8" wide which is ideal for micromachining. I cut every thing from brass to stainless. And that is my not so humble opinion. It is: http://www.travers.com Try them, you'll like them and they are relatively inexpensive. Regards from Les Grenz & the Queen City of the Rockies. AWI 18150 NAWCC 82932 ------- Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2001 21:22:23 -0500 From: "Marshall Pharoah" Subject: Re: Re: 55 degree dovetails > > Several people in the past have looked for 55 degree dovetail > > cutters (unsuccessfully). Dont the carbide inserts that Sherline > > reccomends for the lathe have a 55degree angle? Shouldn't be > > too hard to make up a special cutter similar to the carbide fly > > cutter for the mill. Marshall > The one way I was thinking of doing this is to use a 45 degree > dovetail cutter first, then tilt the work piece 10 degrees and make > some more passes with the 45 dovetail. Setting the height and > position of the cutter would take some care. Steve That would do it. If I ever have to do one, I'll fire up the South Bend shaper. Another way would be to grind a cutter for the Sherline gear cutter or possibly the fly cutter. But I think it would be fairly simple to turn a 55 degree taper on a #1 mt blank, and then cut out a wedge for the carbide insert. I think they grind those fairly accurately. Marshall ------- Date: Sat, 03 Mar 2001 03:17:23 -0000 From: wjw2000x~xxhotmail.com Subject: Re: 55 degree dovetails Actually, the lathe bed angle is something like 55-1/2 degrees. Check out the Sherline web site for their standard dimensions. I don't think that they have actually adopted 55-1/2 degrees, but rather adjust their machines to match some samples of the early production parts. If you need to match the lathe bed angles "exactly", perhaps it would be better to "scrape in" the matching part, or somehow adjust the angle of your cutting tool until the part picks up an even coating of marking medium from the lathe bed. Trial and error. ------- Date: Sat, 03 Mar 2001 15:01:45 -0500 From: Tom Bank Subject: Re: Re: 55 degree dovetails The way I cut the 55 degree angle was with a 45 degree dovetail cutter. I set the work piece in my vise, front to back on the mill table. Then I angled the milling head 10 degrees, cutting on the Y -axis, and proceeded left to right on the X-axis until the cut was as deep as I needed. As for the half a degree (55-1/2 degrees), when I lock on, it grips. I don't know whether my piece is over or under 55 degrees. I don't know how much it takes to cause problems. Regards, Tom ------- Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2001 19:51:26 -0500 From: Thomas Gilmour Subject: Re: Half Inch Mill Chuck Jerry: Taig has blank arbors that are threaded and fit on the Sherline. They look like the Sherline 3/8" end mill holder, only longer and with no hole through the business end. You do have to face off .2" to .3" from the threaded end so enough of the threads engage on the spindle. Then you can drill and bore for whatever you need. They're made of leaded steel and machine very easily. I believe the part # is 1132 and they only cost $1.75 each! They do list more than one blank arbor but the other one I believe has had additional work done to it and it costs $2.95. Their site is www.taigtools.com and I think they're listed under accessories. Tom ------- Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 23:12:46 -0500 From: "John Guenther" Subject: RE: Half Inch Mill Chuck I bored out a standard Sherline 3/8" end mill adapter about 2 years ago. I use it with Woodruff Key Seat cutters in making T-Slots for model airplane plug in wing connectors and other assorted items. It works great, you have to be careful about the size of the cutter and the speed and feed you use. Just bore it out to a couple of thou under .500 and ream to .500. I did mine on a Sherline 4000 lathe but I am sure there are other ways to get the job done. John Guenther ------- Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2001 01:00:19 -0600 From: "Al Lenz" Subject: RE: Half Inch Mill Chuck Jerry, I'm not Tom but I just received some of the Taig arbors and happened to have them in front of me. They are 1" stock 2" long. The threaded end is bored 1" deep. You will need to trim off approx .200 (there is a counterbore on the threaded end that needs to be removed). With that and the .300 length of the Sherline spindle that will protrude into the threaded end, that will leave 1.5" total of which 1.0" will be solid material. Al PS I got mine from Nicholas Carter, good service and nice to deal with. http://www.casco.net/~felice ------- Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 09:45:19 -0000 From: ssmithx~xxserena.com Subject: Re: Half Inch Mill Chuck I also have just received my Taig arbors. I 2 each of both the 1130 and 1132, The 1130 is drilled and taped for 8-32 and includes a Cap and the 8-32 cap screw to hold it on ready to be turned as saw arbor. I made a 1/2 mill holder out of one of the 1132. I only removed .150 from the thread end because the threads start at about .190 in. I center drilled and used a #1 then #N and then a #Z drill on my lathe (a compact 5). I then put the arbor on my Sherline mill, put a boring tool in my 4 jaw check and mounted it on the table and carefully bored out the hole to 1/2 inch. My American Standard #303 Woodruff cutter slides right in with no play. The arbor itself has a lot of runout but because I bored the hole with it mounted on the spindal the hole is close to true. I have not put in the set screw or the tommy bar hole yet. The #303 Woodruff cutter is 3/8 dia and 3/32 face and it just fits into the slot in the bed. I have not cut a slot with it yet. You need to first make a 1/4 slot with an end mill and then run in the Woodruff cutter. [Next para added afterwards to a follow-up comment below.] The boring operation was done on the head stock, The small run out may be due to small missalignment when remounting the arbor after removing it and may change depending on how tight you screw it on. The runout is only .0005 Steve ------- Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2001 09:34:07 -0500 From: "Carol & Jerry Jankura" Subject: RE: Re: Half Inch Mill Chuck Steve: I assume that the run out is small enough that it wouldn't make any sense to take a cut with the arbor mounted on the headstock. Right now, I need the T-Slot on a piece of metal that I'm machining to make a gauge for my woodworking equipment. This will look something like the TS-Aligner Jr, if you're familiar with that tool. I'm glad to hear that the #303 cutter makes a good match for the Sherline products. Too bad that Sherline doesn't offer some of these cutters with shanks that would better fit their equipment. On the other hand, it's a good learning experience for those of us who are just learning to use our equipment. I'm having a blast with it. Thanks to you, and to the others on the list who have provided answers to this and several other questions. The list is a really good resource. Jerry Jankura Strongsville, Ohio ------- Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2001 14:56:09 +0000 From: Tony Jeffree Subject: Re: Blank Arbors >When I bought my lathe, I ordered a blank arbor. It was just a >cylindrical hunk of steel with a hole drilled and threaded to match the >spindle on one end. >Not too long ago, I ordered some more from a different vendor. These came >with a flat disk attached to the other end with a small hex-end screw. >Something like I would have expected the slitting-saw arbor to look like, >except that I would have expected a 1/2" shoulder to match the saw center >hole, and there isn't any such thing. >Have the blank arbors changed? Or did they send me the wrong thing? >(The package was labelled blank arbors, and they'll work fine as they are, >unless I ever need to make one with a very small hole drilled on center, >and anything I'm likely to do that would need that would probably be >built on a blank collet.) The short answer is that there are 2 different part numbers that both have the description "blank arbor". When I order them in the UK, I get the second version that you describe. I don't think the UK importer actually stocks both varieties. Looking at Nick Carter's price list, there are actually 4 varieties of arbor that will thread onto the nose, each of which can be pressed into service/re-machined for other uses: 1110 Slitting saw arbor $4.90 1120 Grinding wheel arbor $5.25 1130 Blank arbor $2.95 1132 Blank arbor $1.75 I believe that 1130 is the one that has the disc/screw fitted. 1132 is the truly blank, blank arbor, unmachined apart from the 3/4-16 thread for the spindle at one end. Regards, Tony ------- Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 09:51:11 +0000 From: Tony Jeffree Subject: Re: Blank Arbors >I noticed the grinding arbor listed in Nick's catalogue only the other >day - what does *this* wee beastie look like? It has a threaded spindle at the business end, looks like 3/8" & about an inch long. It comes with a pair of washers - one goes behind the grinding wheel, the other is very thick & has the same 3/8" thread as the spindle, which clamps the wheel. They sell a set of small grinding wheels to go with it - very inexpensive if I recall. Not made use of mine yet, but it has always struck me that the Taig might form the basis of a simple tool & cutter grinder. I plan to treat myself to a new lathe at some point (mine has seen a bit of wear/abuse!) & press the old one into service as a cutter grinder. Regards, Tony ------- Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2001 20:19:30 -0800 From: "Dave Engels" Subject: Making Gears With A Fly Cutter I'm missing one of the gears for my 6x18 Craftsman, an decided rather than pay $25 to Clausing I'd try to make one out of aluminum. I just wanted to see if I could do it. So far I've made the holding jig, and a 'dividing head' that uses one of the gears I do have whose teeth are an even multiple of the gear I'm going to make. So far so good. Now the difficulty starts, as I'm trying to grind a fly cutter with a 24DP 14.5 degree pressure angle involute for shaping the gear teeth. Tried grinding a 1/4" HSS cutter on my grinding wheel, but that was way too fast acting for fine work, and I was nervous putting my face so close to the wheel to do some accurate shaping. This next worked very well.......I took a little diamond wheel for my Dremel moto-tool (swap meet, $2). It's about an inch in diameter, and really cut the HSS bit easily. I slowed the Dremel down so I could make fine cuts, and it is really working nicely. I intend to always shape my cutters this way whenever I've got a special shaped tool to grind. But, I need some advice. Even with the very delicate grinding I get by using the Dremel/diamond wheel, I'm having a heckuva time getting the fly cutter bit to be the right shape. The fly cutter has to have the exact shape of the gear tooth I'm trying to cut, or else it will trash the gears it mates with on the lathe. I could try to find a milling machine gear cutter of the right DP and PA, that is my next step if I do a better job grinding the fly cutter bit. Anyone have any ideas or experience that would help (or a 24DP 14.5 degree PA involute gear cutter for sale, reasonable)? Many thanks, Dave Engels ------- Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2001 23:11:53 -0600 From: "J Tiers" Subject: Re: Making Cutters (was fly cutter) Short of a tool and cutter grinder, I found that a Delta disc/belt sander is great for this. The 1" belt and 5" disc is what I got, for a mere $70 at Lowe's. I suggest making sure it is a Taiwan, not a China origin, as they seem to be better. Disc side has an angle holder which is reasonable for most use. I am making some jigs for common angles as I need them. For 14.5 degrees you will probably want to make a custom jig. Various grits from 50 to about 320 are available for disc and belt. I found that fine on the belt and coarse on the disc was best. The disc is the best for bulk removal and shaping. Jerry ------- Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2001 23:02:05 -0500 From: Stan Stocker Subject: Re: Re: Questions for the gurus Jim: You can always chuck a pin vise in a four jaw, or perhaps even a three jaw. Some of the Starrett pin vises have smooth areas you can grip on, as do some of the old Generals. You may even be able to use the knurled ones with sufficient accuracy, or make a holder for your pin vise collets from a blank arbor. I haven't done this, as I just thought of it, but it seems like a do-able task. At least we know you have the ability to cut fine threads as needed! You could make a collet from a blank collet, or do a slit insert to go into one of the standard size collets. Poking a 1/16 hole down the center of a bit of 1/8 brass rod and slitting it lengthwise is easy enough, and would be my first approach assuming you have the standard collet set already. Using a larger bit of rod and turning it down to 1/8, leaving a shoulder to keep the insert from slipping back into the collet would be even nicer. If you only need to do a few pieces and can dedicate a chuck to the work for the duration you could make a small collet with a piece of stock held in the three jaw. Drill, ream, slit with a jewelers saw, and clamp with a small hose clamp. If you mark the collet to allow matching it back to the orientation in which it was made you may get adequate repeatability. A good quality drill chuck on the headstock adapter to hold a chuck may also give you the accuracy you need. You might be able to ream a 1/16 opening in the soft jaws with them closed all the way down. If you need a thou TIR, there are lots of methods. A tenth can be tough. If you have to do lots of small work, and can justify $350 or so, get a spare headstock with a WW spindle and a set of WW collets. Individual WW collets are also available should you want to reduce the cost of getting into WW collets. A spare complete Taig setup for WW would be even nicer! Stan ------- Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2001 00:39:41 EST From: catboat15x~xxaol.com Subject: Re: Making Gears With A Fly Cutter engelsdax~xxhome.com writes: > Anyone have any ideas or experience that would help (or a 24DP 14.5 degree > PA involute gear cutter for sale, reasonable)? One way to make a cutter for gear teeth, used by clock makers, is to turn it on your lathe. Use a piece of drill rod and turn the end to the shape of the space between the gears. (This is much easier than trying to grind the shape on a square piece of tool steel.) Then mill, file, chew or whatever half the diameter off the working end, harden, temper, stone smooth and away you go. John Meacham High Desert of California, Palmdale, Littlerock ------- Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2001 11:08:56 -0500 From: Larry Richter Subject: Re: Making Collets - sawing ajkdfwx~xxaol.com wrote: >For the most part I use my Taig to turn small parts for my scale boats. I >make extensive use of the collet set that came with the lathe, however there >have been times I needed a particular size which wasn't included. I have >blank collets and the Taig slitting saw ... the drilling and reaming seem >straightforward but I'm truly puzzled as to how to hold the collet while >machining the slits. Call it lack of imagination but I've been over it a >dozen times in my head but the answer eludes me ... If the saw is turning >perpendicular to the bed, how can the collet be secured and slit? Also, at >what speed should the saw be turning to make these slits? Any help is truly >appreciated ... Thanks. AJ This may not be help, it may be only gossip. But. Most power cutting operations have a hand equivalent. Power machining is the recent addition, actually. It rules because it is Soo MUUCH BETTTER, but the hand operations, if you pick up the skills, are surprisingly simple and versatile, and many beautiful and astounding things have been made by sawing, filing, and chiseling. The last post on making collets mentioned the jeweler's saw, which is one of these old tools. It probably needs to be better described. It is like a coping saw, in general, and is a lot like a cabinet makers fret saw. It is a C-Clamp shaped frame, usually with one adjustable joint in the frame, vertically adjustable, and a pair of clamps at the tips to hold the ends of a tiny blade that is made of very highly refined steel (or ought to be-- there are useless cheap blades by the million). The blades come in a wide range of sizes and of almost invisible tooth counts. Once you master the mysterious skill required, to wit, you never put any pressure on the blade but simply move it up and down and let the sharpness do the job, you can cut almost anything to almost any shape. You can cut your collet slit with one of these while thinking of lunch, or something else good, and not have to worry about the set up. But it isn't modern. Saw brand that is best for the money is generic German. If you find stock on the shelf that says "West Germany" you are really in. Get best quality Swiss blades if you want to be sure of consistency, or the various laser brand blades from Rio Grande Jewelers supply in New Mexico. Rio Grande won't deal with everyone like they used to, though. Other stuff can be good, but I got tired of having every package of blades be a test case, and settled on Swiss (skys, lotus, others) and laser gold. Rio has Swiss files that are like a dream, also. ------- Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2001 13:30:43 -0500 From: "Rich D." Subject: Re: Making Collets AJ, this is one of those problems that "makes a machinist". Think of indexing. Think of holding. 3 slots, easy. Lock a hex head screw into the drawbar end of the collet. The head is the indexer. Hold the collet in the vise in a split sleeve or block such that the parallel sides of the screw head also contact the vise. Orientation of all of this depends on your machine, tooling, etc. Center the slitting saw on the collet and cut a slot on the top. Rotate (index) the collet to the next pair of flats and cut again. The collet has to be held well back on the shank to stay clear of the saw blade as well as not collapse the collet as it's cut. No climb milling allowed. Good luck. Rich D. ------- Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2001 19:43:54 +0100 From: Tony Jeffree Subject: Re: Making Collets Rich - The Taig collets don't use a drawbar & are split from both ends (4 cuts each end), so the holding/indexing techniques may need to be a little different. Nice approach for cutting other types of collet though. Regards, Tony ------- Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2001 00:35:07 EST From: ajkdfwx~xxaol.com Subject: Re: Collets There certainly has been a lot of useful information on collets and the potential use for them in the past 8 hours. I'm still very much in the dark as to how to utilize the slitting saw to machine custom size collets however. Does anyone have a method for holding the little devils while you slit them? I realize I could take the long way round and chuck one in a vise and then use a jewelers saw, but then, what good is the slitting saw? As far as the spindle size not allowing 3/8" endmills, I chickened out on drilling and reaming mine the extra 1/32 to facilitate this. I went ahead and machined a blank arbor with a setscrew instead and use this when I need to use endmills with 3/8" shanks. AJ ------- Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2001 10:47:41 -0000 From: J.C.Beechx~xxshu.ac.uk Subject: Re: Collets Not quite as straight forward as the rest, but, Machine a block to take the collet. Now slit the block along its centre and skim both faces (for clearance of the slitting blade). Take your reamed collet and fit a brass rod the bore of the new collet and clamp in the block. Now slit the collet at one end, when this is complete turn the block round, replace the brass insert and slit from the other end. (forgot to say rotate the collet in the block by 90 deg for the two slits. There is a nice and easy way to accuratly slit the collet and the block is available for use later on. Joules ------- Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 23:59:00 -0400 From: Stan Stocker Subject: Re: Dumb Question Don Feinberg wrote: > I have a dumb question -- not necessarily related to Taig, but > someone here will probably know the answer... > I have a drill press on which the chuck is held by an MT2-taper shaft. I > need to change that chuck. However, that MT2 shaft is definitely > "in there" :-) :-) I have no simple ideas for how to separate that > MT2 pair (it sure went in there easily enough!). > Can anyone suggest a rational (non-destructive) way of getting that MT2 > shaft -- and, therefore, the chuck -- out? Thanks. Don Feinberg Lower the quill and see if there are a pair of slots opposite of each other through which you can see the spindle. If so, rotate the spindle by hand until you see a slot through the spindle and the end of the MT2 adapter. A tool known as a drill drift or knock out wedge (likely by a million other names as well) is used to knock out the chuck on the arbor. A drift for MT2 is a piece of steel about 4 inches long, one inch wide, and 1/4 inch thick, with a 15 degree taper on one end, reducing the one inch width to about a quarter inch. The end that goes into the spindle should be slightly rounded so you don't raise a burr that falls down into the works later. You put the drift into the slot of the spindle flat side up, with the taper pressing down against the tang of the adapter and give somewhere from a love tap to a heavy blow to the one inch wide end of the drift. Out comes the adapter. If you want to buy a drill drift, Enco has them. An MT2 drift is $1.79, stock number 292-6225, on page 156 of the 2001 catalog. The vast majority of tool vendors have these, they are not a rare item, as they are a shop expendable item in shops that use MT drill bits. If you have a piece of steel anywhere from 1/8 to 1/4 thick, just hacksaw the taper, smooth with a file, and be done with it. I've made them when needed somewhere away from my toolbox, it's maybe a five minute job. Beats waiting on delivery if you don't have an order going anyway. To remove a chuck from an adapter can become a whole other exercise. There are wedges sold that look like pickle forks used in suspension work, just smaller. If the arbor has a surface to bear against by the chuck, you can sometimes pull a chuck from an arbor using these. Note that most portable drills use a threaded mounting similar to the Taig tailstock while most drill presses and R8 to chuck adapters use a Jacobs taper to secure the chuck. If you are buying a new adapter or a new chuck, you need to match the Jacobs taper of the chuck and the taper of the spindle. You'll see that chuck adapters specify something similar to MT2-6JT or R8/JT33, indicating a morse taper 2 to Jacobs taper 6 and R8 to Jacobs taper 33 respectively. JT6 and 6JT are the same thing, I've seen both used in catalogs. When you go to reassemble, the tapers should be clean, free of any debris or burrs, and DRY! No oil, no Loctite, just clean and dry. Open the chuck until the jaws are retracted into the body, put the chuck on the adapter if it is off, put the adapter into the spindle. The taper should grab and hold lightly on hand insertion with a nice little plonk sound, just like a lathe center. Use the quill to press the chuck firmly down onto a piece of wood on the drill press table. Pressing against the wood seats the adapter just fine. If it doesn't, you have a damaged/dirty/oily socket or taper surface. As the existing adapter is firmly in place, the socket is likely in good shape. Retracting the chuck jaws prevents damage to the chuck. Stan ------- Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 03:50:12 -0000 From: cmsteamx~xxatlnet.com Subject: Sherline mill collet drawbolt tip: Hi Gang, I do engraving frequently and the need to use available 1/8" dia x 5" long cutters poses a problem holding them with a collet because the drawbolt is solid. Solution is to drill the bolt number 11 drill (just over 3/16" dia). Fills the bill nicely. This is useful for holding long drill bits also. Rich D. ------- Date: Sun, 27 May 2001 18:02:24 +0000 From: Jon Elson Subject: Re: collets for 10" jet wrote: > I'm a bit fuzzy on collet sizing, so this may be a pretty basic question. > If I were looking to buy a drawbar and collet set, what sizes should > I be looking at for a 10"? 3AT? 3C? Something else? If you know > of a web site that explains collet sizing, please drop me email. The 10 and 12" Atlas lathes have a #3 Morse taper on the headstock. So, you could use MT 3 collets directly in the spindle, with a drawbar collet closer. One problem is the Morse taper collets have a small internal thread, so long stock can't pass through the collet and hang out the back. The 3AT and C type collets are designed to use an external thread to close the collet, so a draw-tube can pull the collet in, allowing stock to pass through both. 5C collet chucks generally have the closer thread built into the chuck, and the chuck screws onto the spindle. The 5C collets go up to about 1", 3C and 3AT collets are much smaller, limiting workpiece diameter. One other possiblity is to modify #3 MT collets with an external thread, and bore out the center enough to clear a workpiece the same size as the collet. Then, you could make a draw-tube to fit. Jon ------- Date: Thu, 31 May 2001 07:49:06 -0500 (CDT) From: dswrx~xxwebtv.net Subject: Re: Re: Collets issue My suggestion is NOT to tap on the drawbar at all. Remove it first, then using a brass rod that is a little smaller in diameter than the diameter of the bore and longer than the length of the bore, propel the rod into the bore and it will dislodge the collet. Make sure to catch the collet holder as it is dislodged. Leo ------- From: Stan Stocker Date: Fri Jul 20, 2001 10:44 pm Subject: Re: [taigtools] Using the grinding wheel set? Leon Heller wrote: > I've got the grinding wheel set. How do I go about grinding my own lathe > tools? I suppose I can do it freehand, but I really need some sort > of fixed support for the tool, that can be set to the various angles > needed. I suppose I could make my own that attaches to the cross-slide. > How about using clingfilm to protect the bed and carriage? > Leon Heller, G1HSM Tel: +44 1327 359058 > My web page: http://www.geocities.com/leon_heller Leon; Probably one of the best sets of instructions around for basic lathe tool grinding can be found on the Sherline site at: http://www.sherline.com/grinding.htm You will need to cobble up some sort of a tool rest, but a block cut on a 7 degree angle with the sawn side smoothed with a file or on a belt sander might be sufficient depending on just what forms you need on your tools. If you have a mill it gets a lot easier, but it is amazing what you can do with a hacksaw, files, and abrasive if a mill isn't handy. Once you read the Sherline info you'll likely get some pretty good ideas about quick and dirty fixtures that will work with whatever is available. Stan -------- From: James Eckman Date: Sat Jul 21, 2001 11:38 am Subject: Re: Using the grinding wheel set? From: "Dave Norling" > Are you really going to chuck up a grinding wheel in your lathe and > let all that abrasive grit fall onto your precision lathe bed? Sure why not? If the only machine tool you have is the lathe, you have to use it. This seemed to be typical for the old watchmakers since there were grinding attachments for the old lathes and most watch books showed grinding on the lathe. Jim Eckman ------- From: "Nicholas Carter and Felice Luftschein" Date: Sun Jul 22, 2001 1:50 pm Subject: Re: [taigtools] Using the grinding wheel set? I generally recommend getting a banch grinder, as the grinding wheel set is really best for just touching up already formed bits. Plastic wrap will help protecting the bed, but be aware that grinding on the lathe will always result in a little grit getting past your defenses. I grind everything freehand, and have become pretty skilled at putting the proper angles on, checking against a protractor, etc. See our web pages http://www.cartertools.com/nfhome.html ------- From: Myron Gochnauer Date: Sun Aug 5, 2001 10:06 am Subject: toolbit steel Does anyone know what the official Taig toolbits are made of? Are they a standard M-2 HSS? I've been looking around for HSS toolbit blanks. Enco seems to have good prices (although they apparently won't send to Canada) for 1/4" M-2, 5%, 8% and 10% cobalt bits. ...no mention of where they are made. I'd trust US, Spanish or perhaps Japanese made steel the best. Comments? Suggestions? ...not point in using questionable material, especially when I'm learning the skills. Myron ------- From: "Nicholas Carter and Felice Luftschein" Date: Sun Aug 5, 2001 12:59 pm Subject: Re: [taigtools] toolbit steel They buy raw HSS stock from England, mill, heat treat and grind. I think that 5-10% Co toolbits are a good deal, even as imports from ENCO. For real heavy duty, try some stellite/tantung bits, hard at red heat! See our web pages http://www.cartertools.com/nfhome.html ------- From: bweishapx~xxg... Date: Thu Aug 9, 2001 7:52 pm Subject: ww headstock, spindle, pulley and drawbar Was wondering if anyone had any idea if the above would fit my WW 8mm collets? I have a Boley Jewelers lathe with 8mm collets. If they would fit the above I would opt to buy the set which is a W1020 so I could use them on my Taig. I really like it but making small clock and watch parts it would be nice if it did and make it more versitle to me. Thanks. Bernie ------- From: "David Robertson" Date: Thu Aug 9, 2001 10:37 pm Subject: Re: [taigtools] ww headstock, spindle, pulley and drawbar Bernie. They are supposed to... Nick Carter can probably tell you for sure. If you haven't yet bought the lathe, this may be the way to go. I already had a Taig and wanted to use my WW collets, so I made a chuck to hold the collets from one of the Taig blank arbors. I just drilled a hole in it the size of the straight part of the collet and than cut a 20 degree taper on the entrance to the hole for the tapered part of the collet to fit into... (trial and error to get it the right depth.. since there is variability in WW collets. Then I ordered a draw bar from Pat Cavenaugh clockdokx~xxo... .. the correct length (it is adjustable however) and turned a bushing so that the back end of the drawbar would fit snugly and concentrically in the pulley end of the headstocks spindle. Voila... a WW chuck for the Taig for less than $20 and an hours work. Dave ------- From: "Carol & Jerry Jankura" Date: Thu Aug 9, 2001 11:11 pm Subject: RE: [taigtools] ww headstock, spindle, pulley and drawbar David: Is the drawbar that you ordered anything more than a Hex bolt with the proper thread to fit the WW chuck on one end? Is this someting that you could of turned with your Taig? Your message gives me some ideas of what to make for my Sherline lathe, and how to do it. It sure sounds like a good use for Taig's arbor, which just happens to fit the Sherline as well. Jerry Jankura Strongsville, Ohio -------- From: Tony Jeffree Date: Fri Aug 10, 2001 1:38 am Subject: Re: [taigtools] ww headstock, spindle, pulley and drawbar >Voila... a WW chuck for the Taig for less than $20 and an hours work. Dave - I worry about the accuracy of doing it this way - just after you've turned the taper, it will of course hold the collets exactly on centre, but after you've removed the adapter from the spindle nose & re-fitted it, what kind of runout do you get on the collets? I suspect it will be significant - or at least, very dependent on how well that particular blank arbor fitted the spindle nose. A question, that you may be able to answer...isn't there a difference between WW (US) and 8mm (European) collets? We had a conversation about this on the list a while back - Sherline sell 2 different collet adapters for their rotary table, one for WW and one for 8mm. My best guess was that WW are essentially Imperial, and have a nominal shank diam of 5/16" (7.9375 mm) rather than a true 8mm, and that European 8mm collets use a metric pitch thread for the drawbar (where WW uses .275" X 40TPI). Is this correct? .275" is remarkably close to 7mm (6.985), and 40 TPI is 0.635mm pitch, so is the true 8mm collet threaded 7mm X 0.6mm pitch? Regards, Tony ------- From: "David Robertson" Date: Fri Aug 10, 2001 12:22 am Subject: Re: [taigtools] ww headstock, spindle, pulley and drawbar Jerry, The WW collets have external threads so the drawbar has to be a hollow tube with internal threads to fit the collet. The collet threads are approx .275" x 40tpi so not easy to do on Taig without proper size tube and proper tap. Drawbar costs $15. Woops.. picture got stripped... if interested you can see it at http://www.open.org/~clockdok/collet.html Dave Dave ------- From: "Nicholas Carter and Felice Luftschein" Date: Fri Aug 10, 2001 1:33 pm Subject: Re: [taigtools] ww headstock, spindle, pulley and drawbar There are several things you need to look out for: Not all WW collets are the same. Those with .313+ body diameter wouldn't fit, and some have longer bodies (Starret collets) need a spacer between the spindle and drawbar to take up the slack. The idea of making an adapter from the 1132 blank arbor is pretty good and if you take pains to clean the threads each time it should be pretty repeatable. See our web pages http://www.cartertools.com/nfhome.html ------- From: joel_mowersx~xxp... Date: Fri Aug 10, 2001 5:46 pm Subject: Re: ww headstock, spindle, pulley and drawbar Have been using the WW Taig headstock for several months now with no problem. As far as I know, WW and 8mm are the same thing. I have a motley collection of old collets that work fine. I also have several Sherline Imperial size collets that work fine. Also, you can get 8mm to 3/8" and 3/4" adapters from Sherline that will adapt Jacobs chucks etc. to the spindle. Ofcourse, the outer thread on the Taig WW headstock spindle is 3/4"-16 so you can use all of the Taig chucks, faceplates etc. I don't think you'll have any problems going WW. Joel ------- From: "David Robertson" Date: Fri Aug 10, 2001 6:28 pm Subject: Re: [taigtools] ww headstock, spindle, pulley and drawbar Tony... Good questions... I'll answer as best as I can. > I worry about the accuracy of doing it this way - just after you've turned > the taper, it will of course hold the collets exactly on centre, but after > you've removed the adapter from the spindle nose & re-fitted it, what kind > of runout do you get on the collets? I suspect it will be significant - or > at least, very dependent on how well that particular blank arbor fitted > the spindle nose. I haven't checked.. but also haven't used this setup but once since I have a couple of watchmakers lathes that I usually use when I am using WW collets. I will try removing and reinstalling a few times and see... I'll report results. I mianly did it so that I could use the WW collets in the Taig but have not had occaision to do so. > > A question, that you may be able to answer...isn't there a difference > between WW (US) and 8mm (European) collets? We had a conversation about > this on the list a while back - Sherline sell 2 different collet adapters > for their rotary table, one for WW and one for 8mm. My best guess was that > WW are essentially Imperial, and have a nominal shank diam of 5/16" (7.9375 > mm) rather than a true 8mm, and that European 8mm collets use a metric > pitch thread for the drawbar (where WW uses .275" X 40TPI). Is this > correct? .275" is remarkably close to 7mm (6.985), and 40 TPI is 0.635mm > pitch, so is the true 8mm collet threaded 7mm X 0.6mm pitch? I don't really know the answer to all of this. What I can tell you is that there are several diffferent colelts that are called "WW". Most are very similar and are the ones made by Levin, Peerless, Starrett, Webster Whitcomb and some others. I can't tell you that these are exactly alike... only that they are close enough to seat properly in my Levin watchmakers lathe. There is a Mosely which is longer and Mosely Conoidial which is same length (approx) as the long Mosely's but also have a gentle curve from the straight shank to the flared portion of the collet... rather than the sharp angle that is on all the others. These will work (i.e.seat) in my Levin but need a spacer about 1/16" thick between the knob on the drawbar and the back of the lathe spindle. I know that there are several similar but actually different thread pitches and thread diameters.. your explanation may be right and explain the differences. You've exhausted over 100% of my knowledge on the subject. I'll let you know how the runout test goes. Dave ------- From: "David Robertson" Date: Sat Aug 11, 2001 1:26 pm Subject: Re: [taigtools] ww headstock, spindle, pulley and drawbar Tony, you were right. the runout on the inside taper is .002 - .004" Runout is fairly consistent through several removals and reinstallations. Makes me think I didn't have the blank arbor and spindle threads squeaky clean when I was making it since error seems repeatable now. I will probably try making another and see if I can do better... Thanks for the question... I hope to end up with a better device in the long run. Dave ------- From: "Jack Gartner" Date: Thu Jul 6, 2000 12:34 pm Subject: Re: WW collets, etc. > ... There is a bit of confusion regarding Sherline collets. They > make a 5/16" collet adapter and an 8 mm collet adapter. The best > approach to the use of collets in the Sherline lathe is to purchase > their 8-mm WW collet adapter and draw bar.... I'm kind of new to this and therefore not that familiar with the terminology. Was reading old notes to learn about collets and came across your note. Maybe you can help… I'm confused about the meaning of the "WW". After reading your reply and the Sherline documentation for their collet set (http://www.sherline.com/1160inst.htm) I get the impression that WW collets come in both metric and english versions; and that the metric version is 8mm and the english version is 5/16. Is this correct? What exactly does the "WW" signify, (vs. a 5C collet for example)? The angle of the taper, the length? What does the 5/16 (or 8mm) signify (The outer diameter of the collet?) Do WW collets come in other sizes besides 5/16 and 8mm? ------- From: Ron Ginger Date: Thu Jul 6, 2000 2:20 pm Subject: Re: [sherline] Re: WW collets, etc. Jack Gartner wrote: > I'm kind of new to this and not that familiar with the terminology. There are two parameters of interest in collets, one is the type or style of collet, the other is the size of material its made to hold. There may be a million types of collets- manufacturers used to make their own style to force you to buy from them. In more recent years some standardization has arrived, but there are still a lot of them. WW and 8mm refer to type of collets, as does 5C, 4C, 3AT, R8 etc etc. There is NO detectable logic to the names of collets- they are just plain old marketing terminology. For Sherline machines WW and 8mm are suitable types. The next value of interest is the hole, or the size of materail the collet will hold. These are available in both inch and metric values, so you can buy a ww colet to hold 1mm stock, or an 8mm collet to hold a .062 rod. It is also true that collets labeled WW or 8mm may not always be interchangeable. Some manufacturers would call their collets WW, but make just enough change in drawbar thread or OD or angle to make them incompatable. Note also that collets must fit the work very closely. You cannot expect good holding or accuracy if you try to use a 1/16" collet (.062) to hold a wire that is .050 for example. If you get into collets you wind up with LOTS of them ron ------- From: David Eiman Date: Fri Jul 7, 2000 12:24 pm Subject: Re: [sherline] WW collets The WW stands for Webster-Whitcomb. Ambrose Webster and John E. Whitcomb were two Americans. The designed and made lathes in the second half of the 19th century. They came up with the standard dimensions that are used today. The Europeans pretty much copied the American design here. The history is written in The Watchmakers Lathe by Goodrich. I have an extra copy available (new). I stock the metric collets in tenth of a millimeter increments made by Starrett at $11 each. I stock sizes from 5 to 80. I have been selling these for over 13 years and the inventory is a nightmare at times. I am also a Sherline dealer, but their offering of metric collets is only in half millimeter increments. For clock work these gaps are too great. A full set of collets makes a lathe more useful. I got into this when I was trying to complete my own working set of collets. I just use the required size and don't worry about brand names in my working set (although somewhere I have boxes to collect sets by maker for various lathes I don't use). David David Eiman * Around The Clock Fresno, CA * NAWCC 0072811 Collect-buy-sell-trade antique & modern watchmakers lathes ------- From: WRSmith2x~xxa... Date: Fri Jul 7, 2000 1:48 pm Subject: Re: [sherline] WW collets WW stands for Webster Whitcomb. This is the "pattern" of watchmaker's lathe that became the most popular of all such lathes. When purchasing a watchmaker's lathe, it is always wise to buy a WW pattern lathe because more attachments are available for it on the used market than any other pattern. The WW pattern lathe was made by Derbyshire, Levin, Boley and a number of other makers. TTYL W. R. (Bill) Smith 8049 Camberley Drive Powell, TN 37849-4218 Phone: 865-947-9671 ------- From: waldronx~xxw... Date: Fri Aug 17, 2001 12:44 pm Subject: WW collet runnout I have been comparing the total indicated runout on some of my WW collets, and wonder what is considered acceptable. The five collet set I bought from Sherline measures .0005" TID, with the 5/16 measuring higher. The 5/16 collet could be a measurement problem on my part, as the test pin only goes in about a quarter inch. However, I also have several Starrett WW collets, brand new,some of which measure as much as .0025 TID. I think that is a bit much. I used ground dowel pins to check, and the 1/8 inch dowel that gave .0025 with the Starrett gives .0005 with the Sherline collet. Any thoughts? Thanks, Brian ------- From: n2562001x~xxy... Date: Sat Aug 18, 2001 12:01 am Subject: Re: WW collet runnout Brian, I have both Sherline and Starrett collets as well as hardened collets. I have had little problem with any of them when properly used. A 0.0025" runout for any collet would not be exceptable to me. I will make the assumption that you are using the 8mm collet holder with the 8mm starrett collets. I will also make the assumption that your starrett collets are numbered collets and that the stock you are using to test the runout is round and proper diameter to fit the collet. If the assumptions are correct then I would contact the dealer or Factory for a solution. Jerry Kieffer ------- Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2001 23:00:22 -0400 From: Stan Stocker Subject: Re: Re: Grinding your own bits Gord and Doreen Smith wrote: > Up 'til now I have been using proprietary bits but I should get into > grinding my own . I have a double ended grinder (6") so what grade of > wheels would give me the best ability to grind my own bits? Gordo Canada A 46 for roughing and a 60 for fine work is a pretty good combo. The white aluminum oxide wheels from Norton are quite good, far better than no name gray wheels. J hardness wheels grind cooler, but require more frequent dressing than harder weels. As a default setup, a 46J and a 60J is a good combination. Harder wheel glaze easier than softer ones. As with most things, there is a trade off. You might enjoy a look at the Norton web site, the link to their lit page is: http://www.nortonabrasives.com/industrial/asp/product_lit_list.asp Stan ------- Date: Mon, 03 Sep 2001 04:57:25 -0000 From: jtoolman2000x~xxhotmail.com Subject: Re: Can anyone recommend a good source for tool bits? First, I would stay completely away from using cheap brazed carbide such as those found in some mail order catalogs for a buck a piece. Completely useless. The Taig is very lightweight and not really intended to cut with carbide. You can get good HSS bits in 1/4" from many companies like ENCO, Grizzly, MSC, J&L etc. You will pay about $1 as piece and up depending on quality. If you don't know how to grind, I would make it a priority item. It makes a world of difference how the tool is ground when it comes to a great cut versus a terrible one. I have a page on my web site that gives examples of various tool grinds as well as a couple of diagrams. Any good book on machining will cover that as well. If you need them pre ground, Taig sells them of course. I don't now where you are as far as machining so I don't exactly what to tell you. Basically, stay away from the cheap carbide. Some are fairly good ( $6-7 a piece USA made) but although I have quite a few, I find that I do not ever need them for just about anything I attempt to machine. HSS can be brought to a much keener and longer lasting edge than brittle carbide. Take care jose http://www.homestead.com/tool20895/jose7x10taig.html ------- Date: Mon, 03 Sep 2001 05:03:55 -0000 From: jtoolman2000x~xxhotmail.com Subject: Re: Grinding your own bits YES! Do learn to grind your own tools. It will same many $$$ over buying pre ground HSS. HSS tooling can be brought to a great edge that carbide cannot achieve. Blanks are cheap! I use a 60 grit and a 100 grit white whell for finish grinds and touch ups. I have a grinding page on my site at: http://www.homestead.com/tool20895/jose7x10taig.html There is a picture / link on the main page. Jose ------- Date: Mon, 03 Sep 2001 15:59:25 +0100 From: Tony Jeffree Subject: RE: Re: Can anyone recommend a good source for tool bits? At 09:35 03/09/2001 -0400, you wrote: >Other than country of origin, what are the differences between the "cheap >carbide" tools and US made carbide tools? Primarily those with 1/4 x 1/4 >inch shanks. There are cheap imported tools available that originate in the far East and/or India (the latter in the case of the ones I have seen here in the UK). The differences are as follows (at least in the ones I have, and that I don't bother to use anymore!): 1) The standard of machining of the shanks is bad - the replaceable inserts are not held accurately, resulting in no guarantee that you can replace a broken tip without having to re-set the tool position during a cut. Well-made tools (US, UK & European in origin) are machined more accurately, so that the insert is held in a repeatable position. We have a supplier here in the UK that makes a very nice double sided holder - can be converted between left & right-handed knife tool by moving the insert from one side to the other. Very handy, accurately made, and competitive in price too. 2) The socket head screws supplied were of very poor quality - a couple of the tools in my set of 5 are so bad that it is not possible to remove the "replaceable" insert. 3) The inserts themselves were not terribly good - more fragile than the better quality ones, and with tip radii way too large for the size of machine that they are aimed at. I use Sandvik inserts, generally with a tip radius of 0.2 or 0.3mm for general purpose work, and 0.1mm if I want a really fine finish (these give a mirror finish on aluminium, for example), and they are not much more expensive than the cheap imports. Regards, Tony ------- Date: Mon, 03 Sep 2001 16:03:08 -0000 From: n2562001x~xxyahoo.com Subject: Re: Can anyone recommend a good source for tool bits? Jose wrote > First, I would stay completely away from using cheap brazed carbide > such as those found in some mail order catalogs for a buck a piece. > Completely useless. The Taig is very lightweight and not really > intended to cut with carbide. Jose: You are right about the cheap carbide, however I disagree with you on the use of brazed carbide with small lathes. I have used 1/4" Caboloy (US made at about $4.00) brazed tools in Taig sized lathes for many years. The work size has ranged from what ever the lathe could handle down to watch parts and smaller. They eliminate the need for time consuming grinding and last far longer the HSS . Once the tool post is set there is no need to constantly adjust height of the tool. They have worked well on all types of material as long as you have the ability to ajust speed while cutting to get the proper finish. Jerry Kieffer ------- Date: Tue, 09 Oct 2001 04:53:41 +0000 From: Jon Elson Subject: Re: HSS vs Indexable Carbides got_milk_ehx~xxyahoo.com wrote: > Just following the recent discussion on toolposts and I had a > followup question for the list. I'm looking to outfit my atlas 10" > with a quickchange toolpost and I'm looking at also buying an > indexable carbide bit set to go along with it (combo sale). So my > question is, in the long run which will be cheaper/easier? Going > with HSS and regrinding as needed, or using indexable carbides. I > mainly work in aluminum and was thinking that perhaps the indexables > might be cheaper. Should require less sharpening and last longer, > hence I could get away with using a couple for a very long time and > no need to grind them or replace them as often as HSS. How well does > this work out in practice? Thanks for your help, I got a 5-piece, 3/8" indexable set years ago, and have been very happy with it. I occasionally use HSS tools, or brazed Carbide threading tools, but use the indexable tools much more than anything else. I don't sharpen my indexable tools. As a matter of fact, the indexable insert only overhangs the holder by about .020". So, you can't grind much off at all. Also, the carbide RARELY wears down, unless you are turning something REALLY hard. It usually crumbles a little at a time, eventually becoming too rough to use for any purpose. You can't grind carbide on an alumina wheel, anyway. It will just wear down the wheel without doing more than buffing the carbide. As for how long the carbide lasts, it can last 100 times longer than plain HSS! Maybe 10 times longer than high-quality name brand HSS lathe tools that have been ground very carefully to not change the temper, and are run at the perfect speed, with lots of coolant. With carbide, you can still cut steel when the cutting edge is red hot! Get an HSS tool much hotter than boiling water, and the temper is gone, and the tool will wear out in seconds. Jon ------- Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2001 10:36:17 -0800 From: Dave Martindale Subject: maintaining concentricity A while ago, I machined a new collet for a (woodworking) router. It took me several tries to get something that worked tolerably well. The problem is that the hole in the middle (that holds the router bit) needs to be near-perfectly concentric with the outside tapered surface (which fits into a taper on the router armature). I tried drilling and reaming (for surface finish), but it just wasn't good enough. The drill cuts a hole that isn't really straight or centered and the reamer follows it, giving something that's not concentric. And if the reamer is held in the tailstock, and the tailstock is not perfectly aligned with the headstock's rotation axis, the walls of the hole are probably not exactly parallel either. I eventually figured out that I had to add a boring step. Boring the hole with a single-point tool makes the hole concentric with the headstock rotation axis, and thus concentric with the outer surfaces which are also single-point turned. So the steps were something like: 1. center drill 2. drill to full depth with pilot drill (1/16"?) 3. drill to full depth with 3/16 drill 4. bore out to 0.240 (approx) with boring tool 5. ream with 0.250 reamer loosely guided by tailstock chuck 6. turn outer surfaces to needed tapers 7. part off These steps were all done without ever removing the part from the chuck. I think you'd also have to use a boring step when making something like an endmill arbor. Dave ------- Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2001 11:15:02 -0800 From: "Craig Libuse" Subject: Re: Re: looking for end mill holders and slotting saw arbor > However, when you mention that 'perfect concentricity is always > difficult to maintain on a threaded part, I begin to > think using the mill collet might be the answer. Mr. Dubin, A1/4" mill collet or WW collet will likely have less runout than an end mill holder. There are just less things to go wrong in production and less ways for chips or dings to adversely affect the installation. Just make sure your internal spindle taper is in good shape and clean. Collets are also a relatively cheap solution and one that is quick and easy to install each time. Craig Libuse Sherline Products ------- Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2001 19:48:13 -0800 From: "Marcus & Eva" Subject: Re: Re: looking for end mill holders and slotting saw arbor Hi Wm: If you are after very accurate concentricity, your best bet is to use a single piece, inserted into the morse taper in the spindle. Here's what I would do: Buy a spare #1 morse taper center from Sherline. Wipe the inside of the spindle and the body of the center perfectly clean. Grind a tiny dimple on the front of the spindle nose and onto the center as a reference mark so you always place the cente in the same radial orientation. Turn down the front part of the center to 0.200" dia exactly. If you want to get really fussy, turn it 0.001" oversize and lap to final diameter. If you were careful with every step, you will have a pin that is as concentric as you will ever get. Cheers Marcus ------- Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2001 03:03:45 -0500 From: Stan Stocker Subject: Re: Honing Toolbit If you stroke perpendicularly to the cutting edge, the edge will be stronger. Stoning and honing leave scratches in the direction of the stroke. If these scratches are parallel to the cutting edge, the edge is weaker. This is something worked out by woodworkers over the years, particularly with water stones and laminated cutting tools as used in traditional Japanese woodworking and carpentry, where the edge is very hard and prone to chipping if not sharpened with great care. If you do the final honing from the cutting edge back onto the tool, so the cutting edge leads each stroke, there will be less of a burr at the edge. This gives a stronger edge also. Best wishes, Stan ------- Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2001 01:31:14 -0700 From: "Steve" Subject: Re: Re: Honing Toolbit Hi Yuji, For more information on sharpening tools take a look at the Sherline web page here: http://www.sherline.com/grinding.htm Great info - happy sharpening, Steve ------- Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2002 09:48:44 +1100 From: "Peter Homann" Subject: Modifying /Making Collets? I have a number of milling bits that have metric shanks, 6mm to be exact. My questions are: 1. Is it possible to drill and ream out a smaller Collet to 6mm? If so any advice would be appreciated. 2. If I have to make a 6mm Collet from a blank one, how does one hold a blank Collet to put the slits in it? Sorry for the terse questions, but I have to take the young one to the cinema to see Monsters Inc. Cheers, Peter Homann Work : +61 3 8530-7755 Adacel Technologies Ltd Fax : +61 3 9596-2960 250 Bay St, Brighton 3186, VIC, AUSTRALIA Mobile : 0421 601665 http://www.adacel.com.au Australian Software Engineering Excellence ------- Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2001 22:55:39 -0000 From: "jlm_1951" Subject: Re: Modifying /Making Collets? I side stepped the slitting problem by drilling and tapping a 6-32 set screw from the side (I needed a holder for the small diameter Dremel tool bits). So, in a sense I made a tool holder instead of a collet, but it works fine for the specific size I drilled. Joel ------- Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2001 23:09:29 -0000 From: "wishbone_aaa" Subject: Re: Modifying /Making Collets? > If I have to make a 6mm Collet from a blank one, how does one > hold a blank Collet to put the slits in it? I force fit the collet on a wood shaft with a slight taper and hand cut the slots with a jewler's saw. Don ------- Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2001 18:35:10 -0700 From: "Steve" Subject: Re: Modifying /Making Collets? Hollow out two pieces of wood to fit the collet, clamp the wood & collet in a vise, and free hand cut with a jeweler's saw or a slitting saw on the Taig. I'm too lazy to hollow the wood out tho, so I just clamp a collet between two 1X2's in the vise and use the jeweler's saw. I started using the slitting saw, but it takes a really long time to set it up safely. Then I found I could hold the collet between my fingers and cut a slot with a jeweler's saw in about 30 seconds. Then I nicked my thumb & decided to clamp them between the wood instead! I have also cut the slots with a dremel cutting disk, but the dust is really messy and it isn't a whole lot faster. It is also very easy to make "Tween" size collet bushings for that odd drill bit or rod size from brass rod. I usually make them from 1/4" rod drilled to the desired size and then slit them right in the collet. See the example in my directory on the yahooz group: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/taigtools/files/Simons_Taig_Pics/ColletBushing End.jpg http://groups.yahoo.com/group/taigtools/files/Simons_Taig_Pics/ColletBushing Side.jpg These were both cut freehand with the jeweler's saw and show that the slots don't have to be straight to work (but they would look nicer!). Steve ------- Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 21:01:23 -0500 From: ron ginger Subject: Re: Form tools As someone noted, you can buy square tool blanks to grind to shape. But these are hard- must be ground and being 1/4" thick grinding any complicated profile is going to be hard and slow. I took a simple piece of 1/4" square steel key stock and made it into an inserted tool holder. Look at the commercial holders for carbide inserts to see how they look. I make the form inserts out of 1/8 or even 1/16 thick ground flat stock. You can order this from any of the supply companies- MSC, J&L, etc. It can be cut with a hacksaw, and filed to shape. Then harden it simply by heating red hot with a propane torch and quenching in water. You can draw back the temper a bit, but for making just a few parts for a model its not necessary. In fact, I have used it without even hardening it to cut brass, aluminum or plastic. Note if your shape requires accurate round section you should drill and ream a hole of the right diameter before you cut the profile. Much easier to have a drilled hole than to hand file a half round shape. Ive made these as much as 1/2 to 3/4 inch wide to cut things like model ship railings. As they get too wide you must cut slow to prevent chatter, but they can work. ron ginger ------- Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2002 06:49:34 -0800 From: mark Subject: Sharpening lathe tools A friend showed me a little setup using a diamond lap (!) for sharpening his watchmakers' gravers (carbide)..... These seem to be most often used for lapidary work like gem faceting / rock polishing. There are various brands available, the best value when I went looking seems to be from Daniel Lopacki. 600 to 1200 grit will put a great finish on your chisels and carving knives, too. (in the 30.00 range, I seem to recall - I chuck mine up using a quick and dirty mandrel, in my "other" lathe.) Squirt a little windex on it now and again (the lap). mark ------- Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2002 15:47:53 -0600 From: "Joe T. Travis" Subject: Re: Sharpening tools with a belt/disc sander? Bryan, I started out sharpening my bits on a grinder per the Sherline instructions. Last summer I purchased the Machineshop Lathe Course video series from Am. Gunsmithing Institute (10 tape series that I highly recommend, I am now in the market for a full size lathe, though!). About half of one tape is devoted to tool sharpening - they use a belt sander exclusively. I started using one and have been much happier with the results. My cuts are much, much smoother now. I have the Delta grinder you do. Metal cutting belts in various grits are available from several sources (Brownell's, Klingspor). One thing they did in the video was to make a bunch of 1" square "bits" out of wood for practice. They cut a lot faster and it is easier to measure the angles and get the feel of creating the proper reliefs. I now have a set of wood "masters" with the correct angles for reference and practice on wood occasionally. The backing platen on the Delta is a bit flimsy - you need to get it as parallel and close to the belt as possible - some of the graphite tape on the platen might help - been meaning to pick some up. I keep the table on the 1" belt set at 7 degrees and a fine belt on, just for quicky sharpening - it's so much quicker and easier than a grinder. FWIW, they teach "grinding" the edges in a different order than Mr. Martin does - don't know that the order matters. I do use his method of cutting the rake on the top surface that he describes. http://www.americangunsmith.com/machine_shop_lathe.html#anchor02 http://www.brownells.com ------- From: "coyneg" Date: Thu Jan 17, 2002 3:59 pm Subject: Re: O-ring groove lathe bit What you want is known as a "grooving tool". These can be used like a lathe cutting tool in either axis, for cutting an o-ring groove on a shaft, or for cutting an o-ring groove into a bore hole. They're generally solid carbide tools, look kind of like a boring bar... I don't know about metric sizes, but MSC has them in fractional/ decimal inch sizes. Take a look at MSC, www.mscdirect.com, search for "o-ring" or "grooving tool"... ------- Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2002 23:08:34 -0500 From: Stan Stocker Subject: Re: Which cutter? Most used lathe tool is a right hand, 7 degrees front and side clearance, 1/32 inch tip radius. 0 top rake for brass, 7 degrees for steel, around 12 to 15 degrees for aluminum. Stan ------- Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2002 15:11:22 -0500 From: Stan Stocker Subject: Re: Which cutter? Hi Bill: Don't sweat getting the angles dead on! I have my grinder table set to about 7 degrees, and free hand the top rake. As long as you have some front and side clearance you are fine. If you end up with 5 degrees it isn't a big deal, it still clears the work. Just don't end up with 30 or 40 degrees of clearance, you want the cutting edge supported so it doesn't wear quickly or chip. Better to spend the extra 5 minutes stoning the edges to a good finish than to spend it chasing fractions of an angle. The only time this isn't true is when grinding tools for single pointing screw threads, but as we don't have this capability on the Taig, unless you do a home brew or Frog add on, this doesn't apply. You might want to wander over to Sherlines site and read their information on grinding tools. They have a good write up, with a very practical approach to it all, rather than burying you in tiny detail more appropriate to a person making production tooling or with access to a tool and cutter grinding setup. Here's the URL: http://www.sherline.com/grinding.htm Once you have read that site, there's a file in the files section, stantoolgrinding.doc or .txt, it's been a while. While some of the info relates to larger tooling, there is some useful info for all size lathe tooling. Originally an email on the model engineering list, I was responding to questions about tool tip radius and its effect. Have fun, play around, it all falls into place with a little practice. Stan ------- Date: Thu, 01 Aug 2002 20:47:32 -0000 From: "volzmechatronic" Subject: Holding Endmills: Part I Most of us have ancillary machine tools to support and maintain our shaper habit such as a drill press, a screw-cutting lathe, and a milling machine. Normally, the milling machines that we have are rather small with many of the spindles being the ubiquitous R8, invented by Bridgeport coinciding with the introduction of their "R- head" vertical milling attachment, or the also very common MT3. Probably the most used type of cutters are endmills with 3/8-inch and 1/2 inch shanks predominating. How to hold these endmills is the question. Forrest Addy, Machinist Emeritus, when asked that question over a year ago, responded with the following article comparing the pros and cons of using normal spindle fitting split-spring collets or end mill holders/adaptors: http://www.practicalmachinist.com/ubb/Forum8/HTML/000021.html In Part II of this thread I'll discuss some alternative end mill holding methods. Topic: Holding endmills- collets or end mill holders ? [WWW.PRACTICALMACHINIST.COM HOME MACHINE SHOP FORUM] posted 04-14-2001 To "which is better" question Forrest Addy replied- I run endmills in my R-8 collets all the time. That's what they're for. A collet wears more or less concentric whereas an endmill holder wears away from the setscrew. Collets are cheap. When they wear out you throw them away. When the spindle collet taper wears out you regrind it right in the machine. The only time I use my end mill adapters is when I need a little extra reach past an obstruction. When people tell you running endmills in collets is bad, smile politely but think "BS". If they persist with specious justification employ the "To each his own" or "Go piss up a rope" option as the situation dictates. How end mill holders wear posted by Forrest- Nearly all endmills these days have the familair Weldon shanks - a sraight shank with one or two flats for a setscrew. The Weldon shank is a compromise. While it's a vast improvement over the Brown and Sharpe taper shank (1/2 per foot) in retention (taper wedging action Vs set screw), the Weldon shank also requires a few tenths clearance with the holder merely to insert the cutter. The Weldon shank essentially a cantilevered shaft held by a set screw. The cutter in the work deflects under load to a rainbow shape concentrating its force on the edge or the tool adaptor bore. Grip a new pencil in your left fist and move the end of the pencil in a circle. Feel the stirring action in your hand. This stirring action is a rough analog of the Weldon shank in a set screw style tool adaptor. Bell mouth wear progresses from the mouth of the adaptor bore to the opposite side from the set screw. Here the nearly circular stirring is modified by the clamping action of the setscrew to a back and forth motion causing the mouth of the adapter to wear elliptically and the bore opposite the setscrew to wear as well. As wear progresses, the cutter moves eccentrically and to a small angle away from the setscrew until the tool adapter cuts on one side for light cuts and drags at a significant angle limited by elastic deflection of the cutter itself and the increased and non-circular wear clearance in the adaptor. Most anyone using a setscrew adaptor has noticed a brown smear on the endmill shank after a session of heavy milling. This smear may be powdery or greasy depending if the work was cut dry or with coolant. It's a vivid reddish brown if dry and dark brown if oily. The brown stuff is fretting corrosion products - hard steel worn by heavy cyclic pressure into the finest powder and oxidized in the adaptor's clearance space. You also see the same products in ball bearing bores and around failed ball bearings. So setscrew milling adaptors do wear. The wear is slow at first but progressive with heavy cuts and time. I was issued four new 2" shank Sonnet bull nose adaptors for a special close tolerence job on a Gray 4 head planer mill. There was a lot of stock to rough off using "corncob" roughing endmills then finishing with extension straight flute and some formed cutters. I checked the endmills when we started and they ran within 0.0005 on all teeth. Within two weeks of round the clock operation, the freshly resharpened cutters were running out 0.003" on the exposed shank and 0.007 4" out. You could watch the bead of coolant at the mouth of the Sonnet adapter pump in and out with the forces on the cutter and the action of the bead indicated the influence of the set screw. The endmill shanks were Rc 55 (pretty damn hard) and the Sonnet bullnose adaptor was Rc 50 (damn hard) but still the adaptors wore out in only 2 weeks of heavy but not abusive use. This lead to an examination of the 2000 or so 50 MMT Weldon shank adptors in the tool room. Over 90% were shot. Not a little bit shot but a lot shot - some having 0.020" bellmouth. Collective recollection over past unaccountable errors by good machinists and very expensive work spoiled lead to speculation on the role of all these years old and worn out endmill adaptors in the shop reject rate. $70,000 of emergency funding spent on new adaptors lead to a reduction of several hundred thousand dollars in the shop reject rate over the next year. The rate slowly increased as the adaptors wore. Therefore: set screw milling adaptors for Weldon shank endmills do wear. Moving on to collets. They wear as well. A collet bore in endmill service wears bell mouth at both ends but more at the mouth that the other end. Collets have a fixed bore length. Larger sized collets have a shorter diameter to length therefore larger Weldon shanks have a shorter grip to resist proportionately greater cantilever loads. Thus, larger collets wear far quicker. Collets wear bellmouth on both ends something like an hourglass until there's only line grip near the center of the bore instead of a full cylindrical grip. Futher use exacerbates the wear until the stirring action and the pull of the flute helix slowly drags the cutter from the collet no matter how tight you wrench the draw bolt. Because the wear is distributed by a collet's circumferential grip, the cutters run more concentrically compared to a setscrew holder where the wear is concentrated eccentrically by the setscrew forcing the cutter off center as it follows the wear. One only has to compare the stiffness of the grip of a new 3/4" collet with a worn 3/4" collet. Grip an 8" long piece of 3/4" drill rod so 6 3/4" sticks out. Torque the drawbolt for consistancy. Set an indicator near the end of the drill rod and apply a known force with a spring scale - say, 100 lb. Compare the deflections of worn Vs new. Note the magnitude. I suspect this is the basis of Jeff Park's bad experience with endmills in collets working their axially. Maybe he will comment. Most older machining centers using straight shank tooling use spindle collets with an annular relieved bore. The relieved center gives the collet longer life. Erikson and other makers of high quality spindle tooling are all very well aware of the dynamics of gripping endmills. They've provided ingenious countermeasures against the effects of wear in their excellent but expensive tooling. Unfortunately the R-8 tooling most of us are stuck with is designed for much lighter service and smaller overhung loads. An R-8 spindle with its small, short taper and clearanced upper fit is not a good choice for modern machine shop envirnment imposing relatively large overhung loads like milling with large long milling cutters or worse, the 4" carbide face mills touted (I love them) for turret mills. The R-8 taper soon becomes hour-glassed and the upper bore suffers from countless tool changes. There's no cure for the problem of spindle wear short of a 30 or 40 MMT retrofit or vigilence and an occasional regrind or upper bore sleeving. ------- Date: Tue, 01 Jan 2002 11:39:36 -0600 From: David Robertson Subject: Re: Modifying /Making Collets? 12/31/2001, you wrote: >It is also very easy to make "Tween" size collet bushings for that odd >drill bit or rod size from brass rod. I usually make them from 1/4" rod >drilled to the desired size and then slit them right in the collet. For these insert collets... couldn't you just make a single slot down the side rather than the way you have done them? Dave ------- Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2002 18:58:13 -0700 From: "Steve" Subject: Re: Modifying /Making Collets? Hi Dave, Probably could! I just put the same slotting arrangement as the collets and align the slots when using them so they are in effect an extension of the collet. I don't know the engineering reason for choosing two slots over one, or four slots over two, but since the collets have eight slots I figured I'd match my bushings to them. Brass is relatively flexible, and might not *need* the same number of slots, but it doesn't take much time to cut them. I probably spend more time finding the saw and tightening the blade than actually cutting the slots. The nice thing about the brass bushings is they are really simple and fast to make. Any odd size drill bit or round stock can quickly be "bushed" so it will fit in a standard collet without wasting a blank collet. Steve ------- Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2002 19:00:20 From: "Victor Bitleris" Subject: Re: Modifying /Making Collets? Just recently, I had to make a collet to fit a 3/32" rod. What I did was used a blank collet, available from Taig tools, center drilled the starter hole, drilled through with a 3/32 bit and then used a jewelers saw to cut the "slits". This was somewaht tedious as there is no real good way of holding the collet. I drilled some holes in a block of mild steel to assist in supporting the collet while I sawed. The hardest part was getting it started properly. If someone has a better way of slitting, please let us know. Regards, Vic Bitleris ------- Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2002 14:23:20 -0500 From: Larry Richter Subject: Re: Modifying /Making Collets? Well, I imagine a razor saw could be used in some way. X-acto, Zona, about a dozen brands around. Some very thin saws with small teeth available from the x-acto. Forget the handle. Less fragile than a jeweler's saw, though I don't see one cutting hardened anything well. They cut brass and anything softer forever. I have some decades old. If you mounted the unslit collet in the cross groove of a vise, and glued or screwed the saw blade flat and horizontal to a wood block of the right height, you could maybe hold vise with one hand and move block with the other. Probably get a fairly even cut and a rest from blade changing. ------- Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2002 21:13:54 -0500 From: "defex" Subject: Re: Modifying /Making Collets? you could put a dremel bit or some other thin saw in the jaws/collet on the lathe and somehow mount the piece on the cross slide. then you could just feed it in. the slot would not have a flat boottom but in that case i think it might make it work better...cutting oil!..clamp tight! ------- Date: Tue, 05 Feb 2002 14:01:17 -0500 From: Ken Jenkins Subject: Re: Making end mill arbor on mill > Date: Tue, 05 Feb 2002 08:31:47 -0500 > From: Al Schoepp > Subject: Re: 1/2" end mill adapter > I would like to make a few of these up but don't have access to a lathe, > any suggestions on how best to do it with just a mill. I do plan on making > a flycutter which I can do on the mill. I'm not saying it can't be done, but I wouldn't try it. Unless you are absolutely meticulously perfect you're going to get runout. Ken J. ------- Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 13:11:28 -0600 (CST) From: Tom Benedict Subject: Re: Re: Making end mill arbor on mill Say, this raises a question: Let's say you've got a Taig lathe and a Taig mill. You make your arbors on the mill, then transfer them to the lathe. What kind of gurantee do you have that you're going to get reasonable run-out? Are the mating surfaces good enough you can relax and cut metal, or would it be worth the time and effort to stick your mill spindle on the lathe bed, and use that as a headstock? Tom ------- Date: Tue, 05 Feb 2002 19:20:52 +0000 From: Tony Jeffree Subject: Re: Re: Making end mill arbor on mill I would doubt very much whether arbors will be "spot on" when transferred between machines, so it may well be worth swapping heads to do this & marking your arbors as to which machine they are for. The other relevant question here is whether the runout would be repeatable after removal/re-fitting the arbor *on the same spindle*. My guess is that it won't be repeatable to better than a thou - anyone tried measuring this? Regards, Tony ------- Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 11:32:39 -0800 From: "Nicholas Carter and Felice Luftschein" Subject: Re: Re: Making end mill arbor on mill One thing, the register portion of the blank arbors is a bit relaxed - you could cut the register portion off and bore a new register that was a tight fit on the spindle register - that would increase accuracy. ------- Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 13:42:00 -0600 (CST) From: Tom Benedict Subject: Re: Re: Making end mill arbor on mill On Tue, 5 Feb 2002, Tony Jeffree wrote: > I would doubt very much whether arbors will be "spot on" when > transferred between machines, so it may well be worth swapping heads > to do this & marking your arbors as to which machine they are for. > The other relevant question here is whether the runout would be > repeatable after removal/re-fitting the arbor *on the same spindle*. > My guess is that it won't be repeatable to better than a thou - anyone > tried measuring this? Nope, but I've still got some blank arbors, so I think I see an experiment coming. ;) Well here's another question: On a raw blank arbor, how good are the mating surfaces. In particular, how good is the flat that mates up against the shoulder portion of the spindle? (This is the area I wound up facing off on my Jacobs chucks, which improved runout by several thou on each chuck.) Keeping the answer to that question in mind, how would you turn a blank arbor into a mill holder with as little run-out as possible, taking it step-by-step. For example, if you distrust the mating surfaces on the raw blank arbor, a first step might be to center it up in the 4-jaw and face off the back end of the arbor. A second would be to mount the arbor on the spindle and... Tom ------- Date: Tue, 05 Feb 2002 20:19:30 -0500 From: Al Schoepp Subject: Re: 1/2" end mill adapter >Al;Mount the arbor on the quill. Hold a center drill vertically in the >vise. Locate the drill on the center of the arbor. Lock the table in >both axis. Enlarge to a bit less than final hole size by step >drilling. Once almost to size, either ream or finish to size with a >boring tool held in the vise. If boring, set the tool with the tip dead >on the X or Y axis. Unlock only that axis and move the table to control >the boring tool depth of cut. Cross drill and tap for set screw, deburr >the inside of the set screw hole - a length of drill rod with the end >cut to a sharp 20 degree tip as in a paternmakers reamer makes this >easy, or a ball stone or burr on a dremel tool does the job nicely. >Nice thing about this approach is that you are sure the bore in the >arbor is dead on the quill centerline. Stan Stan, I would think the tricky part with this method would be aligning the drill bit with the center of the arbor. At the speeds it will be used at and the desired purpose it must be very accurate. That's were the lathe would be handy as the head and tailstock should already be aligned if they are properly setup. For now I've decided to get a Sherline 3/8" endmill holder. I would think that this would be something that people selling accessories for the Taig would take advantage of. I would rather buy and endmill adapter than try to make one without a lathe. Al ------- Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 17:51:59 -0800 From: "Nicholas Carter and Felice Luftschein" Subject: Re: Re: Making end mill arbor on mill Forrest feels it would be hard to guarantee runout on a manufactured one, plus he didn't realize at first that the Taig mill could handle big endmills. I have made a few for my customers and it can be a pain - the $30 sherline sells theirs for is about right as a retail price, or course you can spend 20 minutes making one out of the 1132 and come out ahead. What I'd really like is an ER collet setup for the mill that could handle 3/8" collets. ------- Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 21:16:42 EST From: tadici283x~xxcs.com Subject: Re: Re: Making end mill arbor on mill I have solved the runout problem, which drove me nuts, I am not the one who started this thread but though I would write since I have not written too much lately. After many attempts to make an endmill holder that would run true, I decided to sit down and think it out, and what I came up with was even though the end mill holder (arbor) was carefully undersized drilled and reamed to finished size it still had runout, granted we are splitting hairs here but it was off, what I did was to drill at first 3 holes and now 5 holes radially and tap them 1/4x20, the end mill is then mounted, adjusted, and never removed until broken or wears out. I buy arbors for each size and tool and do not interchange them. The land on the endmill gets a little bit longer set screw and there is a counter set screw on the other side. I like clean and straight machining so all holes are drilled with my CNC rotary table and then a finish "clean" up cut made via lathe. I do get some arbors that are not as straight or seem off center and sometimes they take a surprisingly large cut to get on center, but do to the low cost of them ($2.00 or so) I can make all kinds of tools. Recently I made an engine turning cutter, for making those nice engine turnings on old watches and pocket watches, with the aid of perfect movement via CNC the pattern is very pleasing, so there is little limit with those wonderful arbors. Best regards, Chris of Bradenton FLA ------- Date: Wed, 06 Feb 2002 01:00:40 -0500 From: Stan Stocker Subject: Re: 1/2" end mill adapter Al; Probably a good choice if the em holder from Sherline fits up well! But if you think about it, you find center all the time in milling operations, to better than a thou with care. You just have to think upside down, picking up the edge of a cylinder held on the spindle with the tool on the table. The quickest way to get to dead center on a cylinder is to pick up an edge close to the max on the y axis, then move half the workpiece diameter + half the edge finder or pin/drill diameter in. Pick up an X axis edge, move half the distance + half the tool. Repeat once again starting with the y axis then the x axis and you'll be dead on center, to better than a thou with no fancy footwork required, just the usual keeping track of backlash and reading the dials in good light. Gotta love trig, plug in fairly good starting conditions and the solution point converges rapidly! By boring to final size rather than drilling, any off center or out of round nature of the hole is removed, as you are automatically referenced to the axis of rotation. For precision hole making on a lathe, I'd never use the tailstock to hold the drill except to open up the hole leaving 10 thou or more for boring. The boring bar is held on the carriage. Even if you have your tailstock dead on center, the variations on all but the most expensive drill chucks over the range of the chuck will toss you a thou or two, maybe more, off center. You could pull this stunt off holding the arbor in a vise, but this looses the self aligning nature of the boring operation. I have bored cylinders on the mill better than a half thou concentric with the turned OD, but the setup requires a tenths reading indicator and an appropriate way to hold the indicator to the spindle, not to mention very good V blocks to get things truly perpendicular. Easy on an R8 sized mill, using an Indicol holder, but likely not so easy on a Taig mill. You'll need a spacer behind the Sherline em holder I think, as their spindles don't have a register. I know this effects using Sherline chucks on the lathe, but don't know if this applies to the end mill adapters. Please post how it works out for you. Cheers, Stan ------- Date: Wed, 06 Feb 2002 13:02:04 -0500 From: Stan Stocker Subject: Re: 1/2" end mill adapter The register is the unthreaded portion between the shoulder of the spindle and the threads. This is a contact area that is a very close fit with the unthreaded area on the headstock end of the chuck/arbor/whatever. Rather than relying on the thread wedging action to be self centering, this area provides centering of whatever you are mounting to the spindle before the threads begin to tighten. Done right, a register reduces runout quite a bit. If the register to chuck bore is a sloppy fit, it doesn't do much for you, as is seen on the chucks provided with 9x20 lathes. On larger lathes with threaded spindles, the register is often larger than the OD of the spindle threads, so to make a backing plate, you bore a stepped bore, one the minor diameter of the spindle threads all the way through, and a larger bore to mate to the register. You then cut the internal threads, mount the backing plate, and finish up the machining on the part of the back plate that the chuck mounts to. Stan ------- Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2002 22:23:12 -0000 From: "buchnerb" Subject: Making a Dovetail Cutter As part of my effort to learn to use my Sherline mill and lathe I purchased some of the PM Research steam engine and machine tool kits. I have the mill and the shaper kit. The shaper calls for a 60 degree dovetail that is .250 wide across the bottom. I have searched for a cutter that small to no avail. The gentlemen at PM research said I would have to make one. I also need to make a small T-slot cutter for both tools. What is the best method to do this. My initial plan is to turn a 60 degree reverse cone .250 wide on a piece of water hardening drill rod. Then mill a flat on each side to produce a paddle shape. Then grind back the sides a little to produce a cutting edge and then harden it. Is there a better method? Bruce Buchner ------- Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2002 20:27:50 EST From: aermoterx~xxaol.com Subject: Re: Making a Dovetail Cutter Bruce, I have the mill kit from PM and have used a 45 degree cutter on all of it. I got the cutter from sherline. Another thing I have done on the kit: they call for a 5-40 LH thread on the table. I used a RH thread on it and then put the one 45 degree gear on top instead of the bottom so the table will rise and decend like it should. As far as the T-slot cutter goes, I used an 1/8 end mill and ground it down to the right shape. Not saying that this is the right way to do it but it worked for me. Tim Christoff Basehor, Ks. ------- Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 15:31:51 -0000 From: "paul_probus" Subject: Re: Honing TiN inserts? And triangular insert question. Randy: The best reference for ISO inserts is the MSC catalog. It is free and can be ordered through MSC's web site. It has a lot of tooling for HSM's and industrial machine shops, but it would be worth getting just for the carbide insert reference information alone, IMHO. It is a large catalog and you'll need a hand truck to cart it around ;). As far as the inserts you already have, the TT-221, I, too, have those inserts and have found them to be very good and leave very good finishes, but then I was using them on a Hardinge lathe, not a sherline. Looking up in MSC, the inserts appear to be ISO, TCMT-22X, if my memory serves me correctly (it has been a while since I have looked them up and I don't have my MSC book with me). The closest inserts to work in those tool holders would be (again from memory) TPMG(or is it TPMT?)-22X inserts. They probably will not fit, however, since they have a larger side clearance angle then the TCMT inserts. I believe using the TCMT inserts in a TPMG toolholder will work. You are correct, however, the TPG inserts will not work because they do not have a center clamping hole. If you go to Ted Edward's web page (if it still exists, I don't remember the URL), he recommends using TNMP inserts because you get 6 cutting edges because the insert is ground with a positive cutting angle into the chipbreaker, while the TCMT/TPMG inserts only allow three cutting edges per insert because the insert is ground for the positive cutting edge. The reason for this is that the TNMP inserts use a negative rake insert holder which allows the insert to have straight sides because the holder is angled to provide the proper clearance. The TCMT/TPMG inserst use a straight insert holder and the inserts are ground for the edge clearances. Its easier to see with a picture and I believe Ted has them on his site explaining the difference between positive rake inserts and negative rake inserts. In the meantime, if I am wrong about the TPMG or TPMT insert designation and knows what inserts I am talking about, please post the correct info. since I won't be able to post a correction until tomorrow. I would prefer that Randy gets the correct info. sooner than that. Paul BTW, the TT-221/222 inserts I have used do horribly on interrupted cuts. Useful life goes down to near zero. I have used the Diamond Toolholder for both interrupted and uninterrupted cuts and prefer the inserts for uninterrupted cuts and the DT for interrupted cuts. As a hobby machinist, I believe it is nearly impossible to get away from HSS toolbits and when they are needed for lathe work, I recommend getting or making something like the DT. The DT is expensive for what it is, but it works fine for me. ------- Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 09:11:28 -0800 From: "Craig Libuse" Subject: Re: Re: Honing TiN inserts? And triangular insert question. Its easier to see with a picture > and I believe Ted has them on his site explaining the difference > between positive rake inserts and negative rake inserts. An illustration of positive vs. negative rake can be found in Sherline's instructions for using carbide inserted tip tools at www.sherline.com/7600inst.htm or www.sherline.com/carbtool.pdf. --Craig Libuse Sherline Products Inc. ------- Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 11:00:04 -0800 From: "Craig Libuse" Subject: Re: Re: Honing TiN inserts? And triangular insert question. > Unfortunately the Sherline web site doesn't give the alphabet soup > designation for the holders nor for the inserts... -Kevin Kevin, Designations are as follows, although naturally we'd prefer you buy them from us... 7605 (55°) insert for 35° offset 2256 (RH) and 2257 (LH) holders = DPMT 21.51 2AVC29 7612 insert for 55° neg. rake tool holder (7610) = DNMG-331 (Listed in instructions) 7622 insert for fly cutter (7620) = CPMW 32.51 (Listed in instructions) Craig Libuse Sherline Products Inc. ------- Date: Sun, 10 Mar 2002 14:54:09 -0500 From: "Daniel J. Statman" Subject: Great Source for Miniature Endmills If anyone is looking for carbide ballnose and flat endmills in extremely small sizes, go to: http://www.discount-tools.com I just ordered some 0.015" and 0.020" ballnose carbide endmills and they arrived in 2 days and work beautifully to cut titanium. Here is a sample of what they can do: http://members.rennlist.com/statmandesigns/Style-GK003-Blue-Large.jpg The milled pattern was cut with a 0.020" ballnose 2-flute endmill in three passes each of depth 0.006" for a total channel depth of 0.018". The pattern is then anodized to the blue color. I have no affiliation with discount-tools.com, just a VERY satisfied customer. They probably have good deals on other tools, but I haven't looked yet. I have had no problems with backlash. I measure it and compensate for it, my mill has 0.002" backlash in the X-direction and 0.05 degrees on the rotary table. It is impossible for a 0.020" diameter endmill to cause enough force on the mill to see any effects of backlash. My CNC controller software uses the most basic form of backlash compensation and it seems to work well enough for me. know, continuous velocity contouring is something that I wish I had, but I can live without it for now. Daniel J. Statman, Statman Designs www.statmandesigns.com ------- NOTE TO FILE: The discussion "Drilling problem" is covered in the Drilling Tips file. It has wandered off topic a bit and entered the question about hardening collets (or not) and is continued here. ------- Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2002 23:57:29 -0000 From: "martello_nick" Subject: Re: Drilling problem > Not forgetting that hardening will slightly change the dimensions > and/or the shape of the taper. This is exactly my question. I am also trying to make a collet out of cold-rolled hence the basic info about cutting tapers that Jon, Hank and Jude replied to. I'm now ready to cut the taper at the head of the collet to fit the cup I made for the spindle. Once the collet is finished, I plan to grind it by rigging up my dremel to the cross slide. So, I guess you should heat treat after you grind it down? Assume the heat treating is necessary if you want the tool to last for a while? Nick in Atlanta ------- Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2002 06:34:11 +0100 From: "jcgerb" Subject: Re: Re: Drilling problem Nick, No you should grind to the final dimension after the heat treatment. Any heat treatment will slightly modify them. How much the piece will deviate is depending from the quality of steel you have been using. That is what manufacturers tend to try not to do because it is expensive, but no precision made part can be let without retouching it. If you want to grind before, you will have to grind afterwards if you want to get an exact fitting piece. I do not think that I have a general doc in English about it. May be some readers could send you something for your understanding what happens with the steel when heat treated. Jean-Claude, Switzerland www.homestead.com/turnandmill ------- Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2002 20:37:28 -0500 From: "Ebower" Subject: collets I have read the current discussion on collets. I will probably get some heated discussion from this but I have been machining for the past 25 years and have been making all kinds of tooling. I have made my own collets and tooling using different steels. I have used stress proof, drill rod, pre hardened, and even tierods from automobiles. Yes, I got the bar stock from my mechanic and did quite a bit of machining using it for boring bars, collets, bolts, etc. I have never hardened any of the steels except hardening of drill rod. I have machined my own special collets and am using stress proof and pre-hardened steel for them. I have never had any of my collets hardened. The biggest statement that can be made and should be kept in mind, all you need to do is show a little TLC (tender loving care), and your collets will stay true and give you years of continuous and precision holding. Commercial collets are hardened and ground due to being in a shop and used (or should I say abused) by a number of people. I worked for 25 years, as a Tool Designer, for a company that had an in house shop and did all their tool and die making for themselves. The shop had at least a couple a hundred men on three shifts that worked six days a week and sometimes overtime on Sunday. If there was only one thing that I learned from the machinist and die makers from there was to take care of everything I used and purchased. (These guys were from the pre-CNC era. They did not know what CNC was and made some beautiful dies, all on manual machinery). I started at this company in 1967, as an engineer (22 years old), and I was the only engineer that showed any interest in how something was machined. I learned a lot from them. Five of my closest machinsts are now passed away. I did get the chance to thank them for the education I got from them. All these guys were union members and I was a company man (no union). I also bought books, read and re-read them, and then tried it out. During my hobby years (I have been machining since 1973) I have had all manual machines. I still use manual machines. Yes, I do have a retrofit CNC mill/drill, which is used for the commercial work I have been doing since 1992. I still use a 50 year old South Bend (purchased in 1996) and a 25 year old Atlas 6" lathe (purchased new in 1977). I have a 12" Grizzly but it is used for commercial work. I have a mill/drill (purchased new in 1985 from MSC) and it gets more use than the CNC. So much for the soap box. Earl Bower bower machine ------- Date: Sat, 6 Apr 2002 09:43:10 -0800 From: "Marcus & Eva" Subject: Re: miniature turning [sherline group] From: "Daniel Munoz" > I've turned some very tiny miniature tank gun ammo, scale 1/35. This is > I think the smallest I could made with my limited experience on the > lathe. If some of you are interested in the results, please take a look > to my website at http://www.nutsnbits.com/tank_guns.htm > Also, I've added some personal experiments in making pole curtains for > dollhouse furniture at http://www.nutsnbits.com/pole_curtains.htm . > Maybe some beginners like me would be interested in looking the not so > bad results of very badly shaped HSS lathe bits :-) > Any recommendation in shaping accurately HSS bits with very small > details from experienced machinists will be gratefully appreciated! Hi Daniel: For freehand shaping of tiny formtools, nothing beats a dentist's high speed drill. You can often scavenge an older model from your friendly neighborhood dentist, because they almost all changed over to pushbutton chuck models about 15 years ago, and the old ones are cluttering up drawers in the back room. The burrs to use are diamond crown and bridge burs; you can get used ones from your friendly dentist too. What happens is that the diamond coating gets stripped off the tips, so they don't work for crown and bridge procedures anymore, but there's lots of diamond grit left on the sides. You can also use the carbide burrs that dentists buy; the best ones are 1557 and 1558 burrs, or flame shaped composite finishing burs. They cut high speed steel just fine. The secret, is to grind away the front part of the underside of the toolbit on your bench grinder until you have only a 1/16" thick toolbit left at the tip. That way, you have less fiddly grinding to do because you only need to create your profile on the top 1/16" of the bit. Give the tool lots of clearance, so that the shape is correct only at the very top (right at the cutting edge). Cheers Marcus ------- Date: Sat, 20 Apr 2002 14:22:25 -0000 From: "jumbo75007" Subject: 10% carbide tooling blanks I have some 1/4" tool blanks that are either 8% or 10% carbide. Should I use a green wheel for grinding these blanks or just use the regular aluminum oxide wheel. I can (and have) grind them on the aluminum oxide wheel, but I am wondering if I should get a green carbide wheel for better grinding? Dan Fuller Carrollton, Texas ------- Date: Sat, 20 Apr 2002 14:27:38 -0000 From: "jumbo75007" Subject: tool grinding on a non adjustable grinder Many of us have non adjustable tool rests on our grinders. Here is a website that shows how to overcome this limitation. I have used this to get a 7 degree relief on my tools. Very simple. http://www.cannock.ac.uk/~peteh/7x10/tool_grinding.htm (paste it together if Yahoo breaks it up) Dan Fuller Carrollton, Texas ------- Date: Sat, 20 Apr 2002 19:58:29 -0000 From: "jlm_1951" Subject: Re: 10% carbide tooling blanks Hi, are you sure they are Carbide or are they Cobalt alloy? If Cobalt, an AL-O wheel works fine. In fact, you can grind quite a bit longer on Cobalt alloy blanks before your fingers start to blister! joel [REPLY: DUH! yes, in fact, they are cobalt. Silly me, but you answered my question. Thanks, Dan Fuller] ------- Date: Sat, 20 Apr 2002 07:39:14 -0700 From: "Marcus & Eva" Subject: Re: R.E. Carbide and cutting performance Hi Marshall: The reason you are getting superior results with brazed carbide tooling is that insert tooling typically has a small edge radius. I'm not talking about the radius on the tip of the tool; I'm talking about a very tiny radius on the cutting edge. This appears on these inserts for two reasons: First, it avoids the need to grind the insert (the radius is impossible to eliminate in the molding process) Second, the radius reduces edge chipping of the insert. This geometry needs rigidity, speed, horsepower and aggressive feedrates to work well. The wedge that actually shears off the chip is blunt, so it needs a bit of poop behind it to initiate shearing. If you try to take a small cut, even on a hunky lathe, the cutting performance is poor compared to what you see with a heavier cut. The edge radius makes the cutter skate over the surface instead of biting in. That's why finishing tooling is typically honed or ground, and is usually positive rake. The sharper geometry on finishing inserts permits the lifting of a finer chip, but the tool cannot withstand heavy chiploads and interrupted cuts. Sherlines are not nearly hunky enough to fully take advantage of the geometry of typical jobbing type inserts. The best ones to use, are fully ground, positive rake, with as small a nose radius as possible.(finishing inserts) Brazed carbide tooling usually meets this requirement right out of the box. Hope this is of some use. Cheers Marcus ------- Date: Sat, 20 Apr 2002 10:59:51 -0400 From: "Daniel Munoz" Subject: RE: R.E. Carbide and cutting performance I would like to share my beginner's experience for those who can be interested. I never used carbide inserts. I only bought once a made in china or whatever import brazed 80° carbide bit to make a try, and since them I used and abused it without knowing much what I was doing, putting it in various angles and positions; it still cut as good as the first day ! And I had impeccable results with it, with very large (1mm) to very small (5/1000mmm, half a metric graduation) deep cutting, especially in soft aluminium. Much better results than using HSS bits. I cut very successfully with it brass, aluminium and very recently acrylic. I found the brazed bit at KBC tools http://www.kbctools.com for about 2 US$. Now I'm in the process of buying an assortment of shapes, maybe this time quality ones for about 3 US$ each. It's still *very* cheap :-) HSS bits are certainly a necessity for grinding intricate shapes, but for usual cutting jobs I like carbide brazed bits very much ! Grinding is such a mess when you do it in a room of your house with carpet on the floor. Daniel http://www.nutsnbits.com ------- Date: Sun, 21 Apr 2002 10:59:22 -0400 From: "Marshall Pharoah" Subject: RE: R.E. Carbide and cutting performance Makes perfect sense. It certainly explains my observations. My next order will be for only brazed carbide bits, in a few different sizes and shapes (I have lots of HSS blanks). I'll continue to use the inserts on the large South Bend, where they work fine, but th e 1/4 inch set for the Sherline will go in the drawer, or maybe out with the South Bend. The regular fly cutter Sherline sells comes with a brazed carbide bit. I've often wondered why this does not chip on the interrupted cut. Thanks, Marshall ------- Date: Sun, 28 Apr 2002 08:21:08 -0400 From: Bill Brady Subject: Re: miniature milling bits skozinko Wrote: >Does anyone have any sources for milling bits smaller than >1/16"? Not engraving bits. MicroMark has solid carbide bits that they call "Fishtail" router bits down to 1/32". They are very close to an end mill, cutting flat bottoms but not necessarily plunge (center) cutting. The sides also tend to be wavy rather than straight. If you are good with a Dremel cutoff wheel you can convert regular solid carbide "resharps" from pointed to fishtail types with 2 cuts. Wm. "Bill" Brady, Harwood MD 38°51'30"N 76°41'00"W - Its in the darkest hour that the most stars come out. -------- Date: Sun, 28 Apr 2002 11:53:31 +0800 From: Alison & Jim Gregg Subject: Re: miniature milling bits There are small "Throw away" cutters in solid carbide down to sizes well below 1 millimetre in size - they have a 6mm or 1/4" shank with a setscrew flat on it. The whole thing is about 1 inch long. They are basically a standard end mill or slot drill. Any decent serious engineering tool supplier should be able to order them for you. We were destroying about 4 a day at one stage! On, would you believe a 17 ton CNC vertical machining centre. It appealed to my sense of the absurd. Jim Gregg. ------- Date: Wed, 01 May 2002 22:26:38 -0000 From: "kevin_sedota" Subject: small shank problem I was cutting a dovetail for a tool holder for a QC tool post last night using a Niagra dovetail cutter. This cutter has a 3/8" shank so I was using the Sherline Endmill holder. The cutter was not spinning true. Watching the endmill holder I could see the holder was turning true but the cutter was wobbling. Apparently the shank of this cutter is smaller than 3/8" and is being pushed to the side of the endmill holder opposite the set screw. It's not just the cutter part. If I watch the part of the shank where it comes out of the endmill holder I can see the shank off center with relation to the holder. Is there any way to shim the shank of the cutter in the holder? Is there any way to use a collet that will hold this size shank. I looked at the WW collets but I don't think any of them are large enough. There are those other collets that you cut your self but I'm not clear as to whether or not they would hold a 3/8" shank. Other than sending the cutter back is there any way to make this work. ------- Date: Thu, 02 May 2002 22:08:49 -0000 From: "keithbaddock" Subject: Re: small shank problem You could always turn up a thin sleeve to fit over the shank, with a cutout or hole to take the set screw. Either shrink fit it to the cutter, then chuck the cutter in reverse, then machine to final diameter, or just make a neat fitting tube and slide it over. If the wall thickness is very thin (ie the cutter is only slightly under 3/8) you will probably have to use some variation of method 1. Keith ------- Date: Wed, 1 May 2002 19:54:55 -0500 From: "Daniel Kaschner" Subject: Router bits I do a lot of woodworking and have a Sherline 2000 Mill and 440 Lathe. Last night as I was staring off into space, while thinking of the carbide tools I would like to get for my mill, it struck me. I have an awful lot of carbide router bits! (Maybe the fact that I was staring, zombie-like, at my tray of router bits hade something to do with this gestalt :-) ). Does anyone have experience using router bits in the mill? I am not planning on using them for steel. I cut mostly brass, aluminum, and a lot of wood. Granted router bits are generally used at much higher RPM, but the feed rate would also be much slower. and I am assuming that the finish would be somewhat rougher also. Am I asking for trouble? Are there any gotchas I should be concerned with? And, if it is possible / feasible, does anybody know where I might get a ½" collet? I have more ½" shake bits than ¼". Thanks for your help! Dan ------- Date: Wed, 1 May 2002 21:54:20 -0400 From: "John Guenther" Subject: RE: Router bits Dan, I have used a 1/2" core box bit (round nose) to round over the bottom of a deep slot I cut in some 6061 aluminum. I ran a about 1500 rpm and a fairly slow feed rate and all worked well. I suppose I could have use a higher feed rate but I did not want to take any chances. My major concern was whether the collet would hold the router bit securely or not. John Guenther Sterling, Virginia ------- Date: Thu, 2 May 2002 00:24:29 -0400 From: "Carol & Jerry Jankura" Subject: RE: Router bits Dan: One way to get this holder is to purchase a Taig arbor (about $2 bucks). Cut about 90 mils off of the threaded end so that you will use most of the thread on the spindle. Then, screw the arbor on the Sherline spindle, drill and bore it out to just slightly uner 0.5 inches. Then finish up the job with a 0.5 inch reamer. Then, add holes for the tommy bars and 10-32 set screw to hold the tool. This is about the cheapest you can do, and it works quite well (at least mine does) Jerry -------- Date: Thu, 2 May 2002 08:41:25 -0400 From: "Carol & Jerry Jankura" Subject: RE: Router bits |Jerry, Thanks for the tip! What is the best site to order |a Taig holder from? Nick Carter's? Dan: Everything that I've read on the Taig users list (similar to this list, you ought to join as the products are similar enough that often what works for one works for another), Nick gives excellent service and discounts from Taig's list prices. Unfortunately, he only accepts credit cards via paypal, which I choose not to use. Since I needed the parts quickly, didn't figure that I'd need support for that product, and didn't want to wait the time for a check to go through the mails, I chose Model Expo in Florida because they do accept credit cards directly and the savings on that part if I'd purchased from Nick, was minimal. Had I been in the market for one of Taig's machines, I'd have definitely chosen Nick. ------- Date: Thu, 02 May 2002 17:28:57 -0400 From: Bob Lombardi Subject: RE: Router bits - Oddest Use Yet? Ever?? I'll bet no one has ever done what I did with a router bit. I chucked it in the 3-jaw chuck of my Sherline lathe, and fed a piece of work across it using the tool holder. Sort of a 2-axis mill. You can use the X-axis to feed work into the bit, and the Y-axis to cut across a piece. I needed to cut a flat spot on a piece of 1/4" brass rod, so I used a 1/4" carbide router bit in the lathe. Fed the work slowly into the bit and took shallow cuts - since I didn't have a clue if it would work. Result - 1 perfect faceter's dop for a Facetron (if that means anything to you....) Back to lurking, Bob ------- Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2002 11:02:08 +1000 From: "Peter Homann" Subject: Boring arbor for Taig 3/16" milling bit. Hi, I want to make a number of 3/16" milling bit holders out of Taig arbours. The reason for doing this rather than using collets is that I can change bits quickly and have their height (depth) set to the same value. There have been a number of good posts on the subject and I gather the process is: 1. Drill to 1/16" undersize. 2. Bore to .005" undersize. 3. Ream to size. I want to make a boring bar to do this. Can I use a 1/4" square piece of tool steel and start grinding? Any hints or helpful advice. If this is successful, I will do the same for some 6mm and 1/4" milling bits. The plan is to have all the milling bits put on arbours to have their heights set the same and provide a quick(er) change system. Cheers, Peter Homann ------- Date: Thu, 06 Jun 2002 12:35:46 -0000 From: "toddfoh" Subject: Re: Boring arbor for Taig 3/16" milling bit. Peter: While in theory this is the correct way to do this, double check the runout of your holes before and after step 3. When making 3/8" holders, I found that I got .0005" runout on the bored hole. After reaming, this increased to .001" or .0015" when measured on the lathe. Moving the holder to the mill added another .0005" for a total runout of .002" just on the reamed hole. I got better results (although it took about 3 times as long) by boring the holes open a hair at a time, to fit an actual cutter. Runout of the hole on the lathe was .0005", on the mill the hole was .0005" to .001", on the shank of an installed cutter on the mill was .001" to .0015". Todd F. ------- Date: Thu, 06 Jun 2002 16:40:27 -0000 From: "jlm_1951" Subject: Re: Boring arbor for Taig 3/16" milling bit. hi, no, i 'm just turning the outside surface down a bit so that it's concentric to the spindle. most of the arbors i've bought were seemingly drilled off center (at least they looked that way when spinning). so i usually true that up before milling wrench flats and drilling the set screw holes on the sides. i figure if it's concentric to the spindle, then i should be able to get it pretty close in the four jaw if i'm patient about centering it. might be compounding errors tho... can't be much worse than the claimed .001" accuracy of the whole lathe set up. joel ------- Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 18:50:48 -0000 From: "mtrsickleman47" Subject: Carbide tool bits [atlas_craftsman] I am just getting my lathe up and running. I bought a set of indexable tool bit holders that use TT style triangular carbide tool bits. I am using them the same way as I would use HSS bits and they chatter and don't cut worth a darn. I set them right on center like I would HSS is this wrong or did I buy junk and just go back to HSS? Zort Brown Atlas 3980 ------- Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 17:55:15 -0700 From: "GSNEFF" Subject: Re:Carbide tool bits You left out a lot of info. Are you using a toolpost designed for carbide? Did you up the speed appropriately for carbide? If yes then you more than likely need to adjust the rear gibb on the saddle to tighten things up a bit and also check the other gibbs. A good way oil lets you run the gibbs tighter and helps cut down chatter. Bottom line here is use what works best for you. Glenn ------- Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 22:21:57 -0500 From: Jon Elson Subject: Re: Carbide tool bits Well, I've been using something that sounds like this for quite a while. Are these TTT-222 inserts? They have a positive rake built into the chipbreaker groove that is molded into the insert. They should be run with the holder flat (level). If you use an Armstrong type holder, it will put the holder on a slope, because the Armstrong holders are designed for a cutter with a flat top, and the rake comes from the armstrong holder. If you can shim the toolpost up to put the carbide holder flat, it will most likely work better. If these are negative rake inserts, you may have bought the wrong thing. The Atlas is not rigid enough to run negative rake tooling very well. Negative rake inserts have a flat top and square side, ie. there is no right side up. You get twice as many cutting edges per insert, but the tool force is much higher. These holders will generally have a little slope cut into the seat for the insert to keep the front face from rubbing on the work. So, they are operated with the point of the insert tipped down, that's where the negative rake term comes from. Finally, you would normally run carbide inserts about 5 x as fast as HSS. On some cuts, it doesn't matter much, the carbide will cut fine at HSS speeds. With other conditions and materials, you must run it fast, or the carbide rips the workpiece rather than slicing it. This is most seen with threading tools. Jon -------- Date: Fri, 01 Nov 2002 14:29:47 -0500 From: "Thomas R. Bank" Subject: Re: Drilling with the mill From: "n2562001" >>> WW collets are marked in tenths of a millimeter and sometimes fraction`s as Al mentioned. However The body of the collet from various manufacturers will range from .312" to about .315". If you are going to use WW collets other than from Sherline I would suggest using Sherlines 8mm collet holder. It seems to work with most brands without modification. The bore on the standard WW collet holder is .312". The bore on the 8mm holder is .315". Jerry Kieffer <<< Many thanks, Jerry. I have a Sherline WW collet holder which works with the Sterrett collets I have. I also have some others that seemed tight. I assumed that the problem was a film of rust. They are now soaking in Kroil. Is the 8mm collet holder different from the one that is normally provided with the Sherline collets? Regards, Tom Bank ------- Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 02:39:12 -0500 From: "mertbaker" Subject: Re: Tool bit size [atlas_craftsman] > Out of curiosity, what's the largest size tool bits do you fellows > use on your machines? Would say, a 3/8" bit be overkill for these lathes? I use 3/8" ones on the 618, and on my 7xs & the 9x. 1/2" on the 12x36. 1/4" on the Unimats. Mert ------- Date: Sat, 16 Nov 2002 10:10:08 EST From: JMartin957x~xxaol.com Subject: Re: Tool bit size The questions about tool bit size are really a bit meaningless. Years ago, most toolbits were held in Armstrong type toolholders. Then, a 12" lathe might use a 1/4" or 5/16" tool bit, a 16" lathe a 3/8" bit, and so on. As the toolholders held the bits with minimum overhang, deflection was not much of a problem. Today, most of us are using these bits mounted directly in tool blocks or quick change holders. And, with industry's change over to indexable carbide, there are a lot of partially used HSS bits floating around. Most of you are probably like me: of the hundreds of bit of various sizes that I have, I've bought maybe two dozen new at full retail prices - the rest I've bought by the can full at some flea market or other sale. I use 3/8" bits in the 4-bit tool blocks I made for my 6" Atlas. 3/8" because I had a lot of them, and because that size allowed enough meat on the block underneath the bit with the top of the bit set at center height. I sometimes use smaller bits, with shims. 3/8" is pretty rigid, even if extended a couple of inches. On a 12" or larger lathe, I might still use the same 3/8" bits. It would depend more on what I could find cheaply than on anything else. John Martin ------- Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 08:41:54 -1000 (HST) From: Tom Benedict Subject: Re: Re: Looking at collets On Fri, 20 Dec 2002, tburns wrote: > At 06:43 AM 12/20/2002 -1000, you wrote: > >In answer to your question about collet B, collets can be used for a > >couple of things. In a mill they typically hold cutters. In a lathe they > >can hold material. I've had occasion to hold really tiny stuff, and even > >the smallest collet comes in handy on such occasion. > >To be honest I don't know if cutters come that small. Like you said, > >they'd be flexy if they did. Tom > Collets are also used for drill bits, and I prefer using them rather > than the chuck, if I have the proper size collet. Especially if I would > have to install the chuck just to drill a hole. Now this raises something I've been wanting to do for small burrs. For CNC milling, there's a lot to be said for easily interchangeable tooling. There's also a lot to be said for having tooling that all has the same Z offset. I've got my end mills mounted in holders so they all have the same Z offset. Makes for quick changes. But for small burrs, having a blank arbor is massive overkill. At one point someone had posted pictures of blank collets that had been drilled out with small set screws in their periphery. Seems like this would be a nice route to go for small burrs as well as drill bits: permanently mount them in blank collets, measure the Z offset of each tool, and tool changes would be quite easy. Tom ------- Date: Sat, 21 Dec 2002 03:10:10 -0000 From: "J Hamilton " Subject: Re: Looking at collets That is a great idea. I suppose one could create a "height gauge" to measure the length from the bottom of the spindle nut to the tool tip...( not really height... depth of cut?) to save a little time and increase accuracy. Nice thought. Jim. ------- Date: Sat, 21 Dec 2002 10:40:25 +0000 From: Steve Blackmore Subject: Re: Re: Looking at collets >That is a great idea. I suppose one could create a "height gauge" >to measure the length from the bottom of the spindle nut to the tool >tip...( not really height... depth of cut?) to save a little time >and increase accuracy. Hi Jim - that's how I used to do mine for "non critical" work. Simply a piece of metal with a U shaped slot. Place tool in collet, it needs to be tight enough to stop it falling out, then slip it over the tool and against the front face of the spindle housing, and move tool up or down until it touches the bottom of the U. The slot needs to be wide enough to clear the closer nut - if you measure off the face of the nut it's not as accurate. It works reasonably - you may find however that the tool moves up when you do the final tightening. Now as Art's Mach1 is up and running reliably, I simple use the tool touch off feature and store the value. I have made a screw on tool holder with fixed a fixed stop that holds disposable 6mm end mills - they are all the same length and it makes changing a worn one easy and accurate. Steve Blackmore ------- Date: Sun, 29 Dec 2002 00:51:13 -0000 From: "jumbo75007 " Subject: Re: spillage face mill In taigtoolsx~xxyahoogroups.com, "pwarden40 wrote: > Has anyone used the spillage indexable face mill? Would it be worth > the extra $80.00 over the shell mill version? I have the Shell mill version and I can tell you that it makes a lot of swarf out of aluminum. I have abused it on my Taig mill to the point that the mill stopped, but it did not vibrate. The cuts have been very smooth. I have used it only on aluminum. I purchased mine from Nick Carter. Dan Fuller ------- Date: Thu, 02 Jan 2003 08:01:23 -0500 From: Ronald Thibault Subject: Re: 5C for 12" lathe? >I was given a box of 16 new Hardige 5C collets. >I have a 12" Atlas/ Craftsman lathe. >Has anyone made an adapter to use 5c for this size lathe? Matthew Matthew; There are 2 5C collet chucks available that can be made to fit the Atlas, when mounted to a backing plate. One is for the Smithy lathes and runs about $90 from Campbell Tools http://www.campbelltools.com/ page 16. This one, I believe, closes the collet with pressure from the front. The other is available from the various mail order places, and is made by Bison. It runs about $290. This one closes the collets from the rear, as they are designed to be used. You can build one. There have been articles in the machining mags about doing this, but none that are in the current issues. Mounting it directly in the spindle without some sort of adapter is not an option. You could make a collar that screws onto the spindle, that the collet would rest in, and make a drawbar that fits through the spindle bore. The collets are an excellent way to hold round stock, accurately and repeatably, once you can mount them. One note collets are not meant to hold stock that is not very close to the collet size (and hole shape). You will ruin the collet. No raw hot rolled stock. Ron Thibault Warrenville, SC USA http://personal.atl.bellsouth.net/t/h/thib9564/ ------- Date: Fri, 3 Jan 2003 09:15:44 -0600 From: "jerdal" Subject: Re: 3MT vs 3C collets > I just picked up a milling attachment for my 10" and am thinking > about a collet system to hold cutters. > I see "3C" as popular, but pricey for collets. > Also I found "3MT" collets for about $18/per. Since these fit > right in the spindle, that's half the battle. Thread the > bottoms, make a drawbar and run? > Is there some disadvantage to using a MT collet ? The "MT" collets have no thru hole, and use a solid drawbar. So you are limited to short work. 3C and the like have a thru hole up to 1/2 or slightly larger diameter (depending on collet type) for the 3MT spindle. For cutters that isn't a problem, but collets are not a good solution for cutters, if you mean milling cutters etc. Use an end mill holder, which also has a drawbar (same one) but has the "weldon" system of holding the cutter, with a setscrew to engage the flat. Cutter won't pull out as it can using collet or chuck. Pullout will ruin your work, and maybe the cutter. In my opinion, btw, the 3C is the best and most available collet for spindles with 3MT tapers. The 3AT used by atlas is long obsolete, and was used by only Atlas and Logan, maybe another company. 3C had probably 10 times the usage then, and is still used in new equipment. Jerrold ------- Date: Fri, 3 Jan 2003 09:42:58 -0600 From: "jerdal" Subject: Re: 3MT vs 3C collets > "3AT" Amazed that you mentioned it but there's a catalog open on > my desk to 3AT collets. Would those be easier to get set up than 3C? > My only fear is machining the mate for the shoulder on the collet. 3AT and 3C are very close. Slight difference in diameter/threading, length, and angle of closing taper, I think. Machining a closer for either should be about the same, except I found the dimensions for 3C on the web at www.zagar.com after digging in their site for a while. I made a 3C closer from those dimensions, and it worked first shot. inside diameter of the closer should be right on the max collet diameter for best performance, as it is an alignment feature. I machined the 3MT outside taper, then bored for the collet diameter, and finally cut the closing taper using the compound. I matched against an angle standard to set the taper, but you could use an actual collet, possibly. Drawbar is pipe turned down to fit, with a threaded nose soldered in, and an aluminum handwheel. I used a sacrificial "tail" on the closer with a drawbar in it to hold in place during machining. That portion was cut off when the piece was completed. Mark the position of the closer during machining, then you can put it back that way for use and get improved concentricity. Jerrold ------- Date: Fri, 3 Jan 2003 11:04:47 -0500 From: "mertbaker" Subject: Re: 3MT vs 3C collets Only ones are: No thru feeding of stock. MTs grab & you have to give 'em a pat on the drawbar to get 'em out or loosen 'em up. 3Cs use a drawtube for thru feeding. Mert ------- Date: Fri, 03 Jan 2003 12:36:49 -0500 From: Stan Stocker Subject: Re: 3MT vs 3C collets Hi Damon; MT collets will already be threaded on the tail to allow the use of a drawbar. Not sure just what size thread is standard, but the catalog likely specifies it. There is a downside to using MT collets. The morse taper is a "slow" taper, the angle is lower than the angle required to be self releasing. You may have noticed that morse taper items tend to stick, and need to be either ejected mechanically as when you retract the tailstock ram and pop out the center, or via a brass rod and mallet as when using a center in the headstock. 3C collets have a straight shank and a fast taper (10 degrees or so), so they release easily, as do 5C and other standard collets. The taper on R8 collets is right at the edge of the zone where the frictional coefficient of the mating surfaces just overcomes the self releasing nature of the faster taper, so R8 tooling often requires a love tap or two to loosen. There are also MT3 endmill holders with drawbar threads. Endmill holders avoid having the end mill creep out of the collet with cutting forces. As a rule, on the mill I use end mill holders for endmills up to 5/8, then use the R8 collets for larger IF I need the extra rigidity provided by reducing the overhang. MT3 endmill holders are less expensive, and you don't have to beat a collet loose to change endmills provided you are using endmills with the same size shanks. Milling in the lathe is one of those "doable" tasks, but the loads tend to be a bit weird for the lathe. You would likely do well to stick to 3/8 inch shank endmills wherever possible to keep the cutting forces under control and help reduce chatter. Cheers, Stan ------- Date: Fri, 3 Jan 2003 13:46:52 -0800 From: Frank Evan Perdicaro Subject: Another collet idea > Subject: 3MT vs 3C collets It is possible to use Ericson 180 collets on the Atlas lathes with the Ericson 3MT adapter. This system is both uncommon and expensive, but does work. I have one of these units for my lathe. ------- Date: Fri, 03 Jan 2003 19:55:26 -0800 From: "Larry Bailey" Subject: Re: Another collet idea Frank, I am using Erickson ER40 collets on my Atlas 12" and my mill. The collet chuck is available in 3MT. I made a draw bar. I got a complete set of collets on eBay. Twenty-three collets cover 1/8-1". I was worried about the stick-out from the spindle, chatter, etc., but it hasn't been much of a problem as long as I am careful, use the steady and tail stock a little more often, etc. The biggest drawback is the inability to pass work through the spindle, but I don't find that to be much of a problem either, since the spindle will only pass 3/4" anyway. FWIW, I cut a lot of stainless and use carbide tooling almost exclusively. I've gotten used to fairly high speeds and dodging the hot stuff. Larry ------- Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 11:39:30 -0500 From: Stan Stocker Subject: Re: Re: Spindle adaptor/collet closer > I think I'm getting my mind wrapped around this project now - I just > need a picture sometimes to understand the whole process. When I make > an adaptor for the 3C collets to fit my 3MT spindle will I need to > plan for some way to knock out the adaptor from the spindle when I > want to remove it or is the fit fragile enough where a tap with a > dead blow hammer on the nose will loosen it enough to pull out? > Seems to me in an erlier thread someone mentioned a collar made for > the pindle that pushed out the insert when the collar was unscrewed. > Am I connecting the wrong dots here? Jerry The South Bend adapter has a shoulder on the outboard end of the adapter. You thread on the spindle nose cap, then put in the 3MT to 3C adapter. When you want to remove the adapter, you just unscrew the nose cap, it bears against the rear of the shoulder and pops the adapter out. Similar idea to retracting the tailstock ram and letting the tip of the screw pop the tailstock center. You can knock out the adapter if you have to, a closely fitted brass or brass tipped knock out bar should be in your kit of lathe tools anyway. It is nice to use the nose cap, helps protect the spindle threads and register. Check out the files section of the South Bend group on Yahoo, they have pictures and dimension of collets and collet closers. Cheers, Stan ------- Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 17:58:06 EST From: n8as1x~xxaol.com Subject: Re: Re: Spindle adaptor/collet closer please ....no knocking on the spindle ......the thrded nose protector will also do double duty as u unscrew ,taking out the adapter...lacking that, a soft alum.faced knockout rod works well best wishes docn8as ------- Date: Sun, 19 Jan 2003 22:30:25 -0600 From: "jerdal" Subject: Spindle adaptor/collet closer One person suggested a reamer for removing burrs etc from the taper bore. Please do not do that, as the reamer will mess up the spindle taper if used in the presence of burrs and raised spots. Maybe not much, but how much destruction of accuracy do you want? Use a small stone to remove the raised spots, and never mind any depressed areas, they won't bother you. Chalk or blue Dykem will show you the raised areas clearly, and tell you when you are done. Grizzly sells some plastic scrapers for cleaning MT spindle tapers. they work very well, good insurance against more dings. Jerrold ------- Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2003 15:16:00 -0500 From: Stan Stocker Subject: Re: Re: 3c collet setup alternative to draw bar? Greetings; ER11 collets have a major diameter of 0.452, an OAL of 0.710, and cover the range of 1/32 inch to 1/4 inch. ER32 collets have a major diameter of 1.3 inch, OAL of 1.578 inch, and cover the range of 3/32 to 3/4 inch. I believe ER series collets are specified of 0.0005 TIR 2 inches from the collet, while DA series collets are specified for 0.0005 TIR at the collet, so ER series are a bit more accurate. DA collets use a simple compression nosepiece, while ER collets use a special nosepiece that also ejects the collet. If you need to work to very tight tolerances in smaller size work on a smaller lathe, but don't want to go to the expense or need the range of of WW collets, the ER11 or ER16 collets would make sense. The level of effort to make a collet chuck to take ER32 series is probably a bit greater than the effort to make a 5C chuck or adaptor, and the collets are quite a bit more expensive as well. I also don't recall seeing ER series in hex or square collets, so that may be a consideration as well. It pretty much comes down to the TIR you can tolerate, the sizes you need to hold, and if you need to hold square or hex stock in addition to round. ER series are 0.0005 TIR 2 inches out from the collet, good 5C collets are 0.0005 one inch from the collet, and DA series are 0.0005 at the collet. If you need to hold larger than 3/4 inch, 5C or possible (very pricey) you can go with ER40 series. If you need to hold smaller than 1/32 inch, WW collets are about it, or possibly an Albrecht 15J0 chuck on a high quality MT3 to J0 adapter. If you have to hold stock that is "close", but not within a few thou of the specifed collet size, DA or ER series are the way to go. 5C collets are only intended to compress a few thou at most. DA collets are claimed to compress a full 1/32. ER series are specified to have a 40 thou range. If you need to hold square or hex stock often enough to want to use collets, 5C is about it. If you just want to hold 1/16 to 1/2 inch round stock, and don't care that your collets are not going to fit spin indexers and such (5C) or end mill grinding fixtures (R8) 3C or 3AT mounted in a carefully made adapter will likely give you as much accuracy as the basic lathe can generate. And for most bang for the buck, if you don't need pass through, square, or hex stock holding, there are always MT3 collets. Range is a bit limited, 1/8 to 1/2 by 16ths, but you can get import ones for around $11 each, or a set of 7 in MT3 for $60 from Little Machine Shop. Make a simple draw bar and your in business. If you want top quality MT collets, Myford sells them for around 30 each, about the same as ER series. I don't know the specified TIR on these, but they are worth consideration. If I were going to go with ER series, I'd probably make a spindle adapter bored dead nuts on to take an ER16 collet chuck with a short 3/4 inch shank. These cost about $70. Add a 10 piece collet set in ER16 for $225 and you cover the 1/32 to 3/8 inch range. In the larger sizes, 5C and DA180 seem a reasonable compromise between TIR and cost, and both are fairly easy to make adapters for. You can also purchase DA series extensions with all the threading and tapers cut to spec, and either make a bored adapter to take it, or hold the shank of the chuck in a good four jaw. The whole collet business is a huge bundle of trade offs. Here's how I've handled it: Simple 5C nosepiece adapters for each of the larger lathes. I have a lot of 5C collets and fixtures that take 5C. An R8 adapter for the SB9, just to do it. Rarely used. R8 fits my endmill grinding fixture and mill, so I have the common sizes. I wouldn't bother if you don't already have R8 anyhow. A set of MT3 collets. Not my favorite, but the best way to get absolute minimal overhang at a low cost. If I lucked into a good set of 3Cs at a good price, I'd make an adapter/drawbar in a flash. DA300 adapter for the Taig. I got a pretty complete set cheap, so it made sense. DA180 adapter for the SB9. Used for stock more than 3 thou undersized so I don't spring my 5C collets. Happy figuring! Might just as well make something to use the collets you already have, you'll end up with several styles in the shop over time anyway! Cheers, Stan ------- Date: Sun, 26 Jan 2003 17:33:28 -0600 (CST) From: dswrx~xxwebtv.net Subject: Re: source for mt1 & mt2... [THREADED 1/2 IN. 20 TPI] The number on the Sears box is; 9 (with a line underneath it) followed by 29850. This is the #2 MT. On the web site: http://sears.com The MT#1 arbor: 00925355000 The MT#2 arbor: 00929850000 They are called work arbors for wood lathes. They come with 2 flanges and a nut. (the advertisement says that they can be used to mount buffing wheels in the "tail" stock) Guess those wood lathes have a rotating spindle in the tail stock too! 8-) Leo (pearland, tx) ------- Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2003 22:12:46 -0500 From: Stan Stocker Subject: Taig WW spindle question Hi Folks; Could someone confirm the WW headstock from Taig takes standard 8mm WW collets? I understand the Sherline collets are of a slightly different size than the European WW collets (or those made to match them.) I have a chance to purchase a fairly thorough set of Swiss made WW collets that are new old stock from some friends of mine that are equipment dealers. My friends tend to handle much larger equipment, and freely admit that jewelers/watchmakers tooling is completely alien to them. They just happened to end up with these items when they did a large buy of an entire shop. They also have a WW spindle lathe available at a nice price that might do just fine. I'll hopefully be able to check it out Tuesday night, if it's in good shape then I'm gold. If not, I'll need to: 1) buy a Taig WW headstock 2) buy a watchmakers lathe 3) make a watchmakers style lathe (yes, I have larger tools and a surface grinder) or 4) make an adapter to fit WW collets to the Taig. Option 1 or 4 are my initial preferences, with buying a WW headstock seeming best. Thanks for any advice or help you can offer. Stan ------- Date: Sun, 26 Jan 2003 06:27:33 -0000 From: "collectric " Subject: Re: Taig WW spindle question Stan Stocker wrote: > Hi Folks; Could someone confirm the WW headstock from Taig takes > standard 8mm WW collets? ** The 8mm collets I had would NOT fit and some of the WW American collets were too tight. No problem, push the spindle key up out of the way and run an 8mm drill into the spindle. Push the key back down and all is well. It was about a 60 second job. ALL the jewelers lathe collets now work great. Tom ------- Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2003 11:08:24 -0500 From: Nick Hull Subject: Re: Collet closer OK, I'm not usually a precision machinist; I do a lot of stuff quick & dirty. I need collets not for precision but to hold thin walled tubing etc. And while I would love to have a 5C closer on my tiny 6" Craftsman, often I need to hold tapered tubing (think brass cartridge cases). My solution is to bore a short plastic rod to the desired size/taper and mark the direction of the chuck handle, then cut the plastic there. I usually use a 3-jaw chuck for speed, but if I need more accuracy I put my 'collet' in a 4-jaw and indicate the work piece. Not very elegant, but works on tapered pieces and I can cheaply make any size I want. ------- Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2003 16:17:21 -0500 From: "mertbaker" Subject: Re: Re: Collet closer You can make "collets" for use in the 3 jaw chuck. Bore the hole just right, & cut 1 slit into the hole. Clamp in the 3 jaw. Just the thing for eccentrics, too. Mert ------- Date: Wed, 05 Feb 2003 17:33:20 -0800 From: "Scott A. Stephens" Subject: Re: Fine milling bit for stone carving > I am looking for a fine milling bit to carve a soft stone (soap >stone). It is not 3D but a line drawing. I remember seeing a post in >this group with a link to a shop on where to buy such bits I remember seeing on this site that he cut soap stone. Or did sample cuts in it. So you might want to ask him. http://www.rainnea.com/portfo.htm ------- Date: Thu, 06 Feb 2003 15:46:53 -0000 From: "Bryan Hassing " Subject: Re: Fine milling bit for stone carving Kim: Have you considered using the small Dremel 3/32" shank engraving cutters in the Sherline #3087 3/32" milling collet? Perhaps these relatively inexpensive, and readily available, cutters would work for carving soap stone. ------- Date: Thu, 06 Feb 2003 17:42:30 -0000 From: "kimvellore " Subject: Re: Fine milling bit for stone carving Bryan, I was looking for finer bit than that like .005" to .01". I have a lot of closely spaced lines to carve. Thanks Kim ------- Date: Fri, 7 Feb 2003 10:53:43 -0800 From: "Andrew Werby" Subject: Re: Digest Number 1034 You can use a single-flute engraving bit for this sort of thing. These resemble a cone which has half of its volume removed, so it's "D" shaped in cross-section. The tip, which does the cutting, is a very small diameter, which can be adjusted by stoning down the point to the desired radius. Run it as high rpms as you can. You can get them at http://www.antaresinc.net/EngravingCuttersFrameset.htm Andrew Werby www.computersculpture.com ------- Date: Fri, 07 Feb 2003 13:20:31 -0600 From: John Thompson Subject: soapstone Soapstone also chips its edges easily when used with power tools. I have tried cutting soapstone pens on the sherline, and the edges chipped, no matter how much I varied the speed, feed, and cut depth and direction. You'll have a hard time finding a milling cutter less than 1/32" diameter that is affordable or even findable. John ------- Date: Sat, 22 Feb 2003 03:41:23 -0000 From: "d12038 " Subject: Diamond Toolholder Any of you folks out there use the Diamond Toolholder from Bay-Com I have one and it works great, however in order for it to cut the best I run it below center. I use the included attachment for grinding the bit, and I have centered the attachment as shown in the instructions. I was just wondering if any of you fellas use one and know something I don't! Thanks in advance Dee ------- Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2003 15:25:35 -0000 From: "buchnerb " Subject: Engraving Cutters vs. Small End Mills I want to use my CNC Sherline mill to engrave a grid pattern on some aluminum. I want the size and depth to appear about the same as if you ran your scriber over the surface. I have seen both small end mills and engraving cutters available. Which would be the best choice for this application? What are the pros and cons of each? I am just beginning to learn to use my CNC conversion and have not tried any engraving yet. Bruce Buchner ------- Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2003 11:31:10 -0500 From: RichD Subject: Re: Engraving Cutters vs. Small End Mills Bruce, Many folks use a simple home built spring loaded scribing tool to do just as you say. This is held just as a cutter and the "depth" setting is the tip depressed against the spring enough to get a good scratched line. This is a great tool for testing toolpaths on scrap plastic or metal or the finished part. My tool is a 1/4" diameter piece of steel rod with a hole drilled in the end for a tiny spring robbed from a miniature toggle switch handle and an old phonograph needle (I never throw anything away) as the tool tip. A sewing needle cut down to work may do as well. The only serious requirement is to get a good fit in the hole so the side play doesn't make jig-jags on path changes. A dap of grease in the hole retains the needle.Sharpen or dress the tip to get the desired effect in your material. RichD ------- Date: Mon, 03 Mar 2003 17:10:14 -0000 From: "abbylynx " Subject: Very confused -> Mill sizing & End Mill Holders I have a Sherline mill with the 6MM end Mill holder and a few 6MM cutting bits.. these were the only size cutting bits that the store had when I ordered my mill. The problem is that my smallest bit is only 3MM (about 1/8") and I'd like to cut with a smaller bit. I also want to cut deeper than the 1/2" I'm limited to with the short length of my existing bits. The problem comes about when I want to order new endmills, because it seems the 6MM type are very sparse. I think I need to dump this size and get a different end mill holder/collet set. Can anyone steer me in the right direction, and perhaps also suggest sites with bits/etc on? In particular, I'm looking for some small bits around or under 1MM (1/16"), and some slightly longer ones (say ~2" long, 3/16"). What endmill holder size, or collet set should I get? Silly 6MM size. Thanks! ------- Date: Mon, 03 Mar 2003 17:27:25 -0000 From: "ptlarry2003 " Subject: Re: Very confused -> Mill sizing & End Mill Holders Try www.discount-tools.com Larry M ------- Date: Mon, 03 Mar 2003 18:15:57 -0000 From: "notinsync10 " Subject: Re: Very confused -> Mill sizing & End Mill Holders End mills are available in a 3/16th's shank 2-flute down to 1/32nd's with a cutting length of 3/32nd's. 4-flute down to 1/16th's with a 3/16th's cutting length. The smallest end mill I've seen with a 2" cutting length is 1/2" with a 1/2" shank. Anything smaller in diameter is considered to have too much deflection for maintaining accuracy at that depth. In order to achieve a cutting depth of 2" with a boring bar, it will require a min. bore diameter of approx. 1/2". Again, rigidity is the issue. Try MSC Industrial Supply at www.mscdirect.com Take care, J.B. Neiswander ------- Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2003 12:53:23 -0600 From: "Scott Peterson" Subject: Re: Very confused -> Mill sizing & End Mill Holders Try R L Schmidt.. http://www.rlschmitt.com/metric.htm ..They make 6mm bits in carbide in half-millimeter increments from 1mm to 6mm...both ball and square. Give 'em a call to discuss depth of cut before you order, I'm not sure where they start the flare to the shank diameter on the smaller tools. Also ask about their over runs and blems http://www.rlschmitt.com/Blemlist.htm , (note that the online list is out of date) I've grabbed several of these and they work well...avoid the chipped ones, unless you can clean them up yourself. ------- Date: Sun, 09 Mar 2003 18:12:46 -0500 From: Stan Stocker Subject: Re: resharpening carbide cutters > Hi folks, just going through the piles of cutters that I got > with the lathe. The bulk are carbide, and most have a ding/ > chip/big flippin'hole on the cutting tip. > What will it take to get these back into service? Can I just > dress them on the bench grinder? Or anything special dealing > with the carbide faces? There are wheels made for sharpening carbide. Most of them have a depressed center and are meant to be mounted on heavy duty grinders, often the ones sold with multiple tables and such, and having a 1 or 1 1/4 inch spindle or a flange mounting setup. There are also diamond wheels sold for this application, but again, getting one set up on a standard bench grinder may be more work than it's worth. Unless you have a lot of cutters, and know thay are of quite good quality, you might be better off to just get some indexable carbide toolholders and inserts if you need carbide. FWIW, HSS can be made sharper than most carbides, and often gives a better finish. I keep carbide on most of the lathes for general work, but when I want a really nice finish I usually swap over to M2 or 10% cobalt HSS cutters that have had the cutting edged honed with a hard arkansas stone. Cheers, Stan ------- Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2003 00:13:34 -0600 From: "jerdal" Subject: Re: resharpening carbide cutters Go to Woodcraft, locally or on-line, and get some EZE-Lap diamond hones. Flat plate on a plastic handle. They will let you do quite a bit of honing and shaping of the edge. A regular aluminum oxide wheel should not cut carbide, you need silicon carbide wheel. That said, my pink aluminum oxide wheel cuts the heck out of carbide, for some reason. I found out when my diamond dresser gave out, and I used a junk carbide bit. Didn't face the wheel, the wheel faced it! Jerrold. ------- Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2003 14:13:13 -0400 From: Stan Stocker Subject: Re: newbie endmill question- 2 flute or 4 flute? As you're already signed up with Yahoo, you might join the mill_drill group and browse the old postings for more information than a single post could (or should) contain. A 2 flute end mill typically is capable of plunge cutting, and will cut slots that are smoother and closer to size. The UK folks ofter refer to these as slot drills. The reason is that a 4 flute endmill has a cutting edge 90 degrees behind the leading edge, as the end mill flexes from the cutting force of the leading edge, the one 90 degrees behind digs in. In slotting applications using a two flute endmill results in either the edges opposing each other (at the widest point of cut), or the trailing edge is hanging out in free space so the flex causes no harm. A 2 flute end mill is good in material that tends to cut stringy and produce lots of swarf as there is more room for chip ejection. 4 flute endmills can end up with the flutes packed with swarf with these sorts of materials. If the chips pack in the flutes, you get heat and poor finish quality. You want to cut the work, not recut the swarf. A 4 flute endmill usually produces a cleaner finish in side cutting applications where there is only one point of contact with the work, but does not plunge cut. You have to come in to the cutting surface from the side with a 4 flute. 2 name brand endmills at $12 a piece will cut better and outlast 10 $4 el-cheapo endmills, but it's handy to keep a few expendable end mills handy in common sizes if you have to slot angle iron and other stuff that may have hard spots or inclusions. Hitting a carbide inclusion will trash most endmills, might as well not risk a nice Putnam :-) Cheers, Stan ------- Date: Sat, 03 May 2003 08:09:21 -0700 From: "Larry Bailey" Subject: Re: Re: er32 collet closer and 5c closer [atlas_craftsman >From: "jdmichael2001" >joekott1, >I have no experience with the Beall chuck so can't comment on it >specifically. I do have an ER chuck and closer I made for my 12" and >have not noticed any deflection. I'm generally using smallish stock >(under 3/4") so its strength is fairly low compared to the chuck >itself and so I'm usually working close to the chuck. Anything very >long needs tailstock support anyway and deflection can be a problem >but it's not the chuck's fault. I find it a nice way to work. Jan >--- In atlas_craftsmanx~xxyahoogroups.com, "joekott1" wrote: >> I have a quick question for those of you who have collet chucks that >> extend beyond the threaded part of the spindle (the collet is not >> contained within the spindle). When you are turning a part using a >> collet chuck like this have you had any problems with the part >> deflecting? Especially during parting operations and singlepointing. >> threads. I am interested in a collet chuck sold by Beall tool here >> in Ohio -- threads onto the spindle and uses ER32 CNC collets. I think >> the adapter and a set of 5 collets is listed for about $160. I do not >> think this will be an issue but I am concerned that the chuck will >> deflect when turning. I would guess that as long as I don't do >> anything foolish this shouldnt be a problem. Am I overanalyzing this >> or is this a problem with this style collet chuck? In general, what >> opinions do you have of this style collet chuck? Thanks for your help! I routinely use an ER-40 chuck with a 3MT shank and draw bar. It isn't as rigid as collets contained within the spindle, but, as the other poster wrote, it's not a real problem and is very convenient. Use tailstock or steady support as necessary. The drawback to this type of chuck is that you can't pass stock through the collet and spindle. Larry ------- Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2003 08:37:25 -0700 From: "Marcus and Eva" Subject: Re: Mill Cutter Sharpen Hi Jon: Are you trying to sharpen 2 flute or 4 flute cutters? 2 flute cutters are easy to sharpen on an ordinary bench grinder...no harder than a twist drill. Basically what you do is hack off the spoiled end and make a shorter cutter out of it. Don't bother to try to grind the sides of the flutes unless you have an air bearing setup. 4 flute cutters are much more difficult, because you will almost always nick the tips of the flutes that you are not trying to grind, while you are working on the tips that you do want to grind. This begins to matter once you've ground the first tip to final shape, and then you spoil it again when you go to grind the next one. To grind a 4 flute you really need a decent setup that will present the flutes to the grinding wheel in a controllable way. The last step...relieving the center on the cutter, is a simple job for a Dremel with a skinny abrasive cutoff wheel. If you can tolerate it, an even easier thing to do, is to just nip a little chamfer on the tips of all the flutes. As long as you give it relief and make all the chamfers about the same size and angle, the cutter will perform very well again. The only drawback is that the cutter will no longer be able to clear out a right angle corner, but for many jobs that is irrelevant. Cheers Marcus ------- Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2003 13:46:39 -0000 From: "n2562001" Subject: Re: Mill Cutter Sharpen Jon, if you have a Sherline Mill, an ajustable angle plate and a indexer or rotary table you have everything you need except a 4" cup wheel for grinding. This setup will works great for occasional use on the ends only. I also use this for grinding small spade drills and half round end mills. Jerry Kieffer ------- Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2003 09:48:54 -0400 From: "Ron Ginger" Subject: Re: Mill Cutter Sharpen > Are you trying to sharpen 2 flute or 4 flute cutters? > 2 flute cutters are easy to sharpen on an ordinary bench grinder...no > harder than a twist drill. I would disagree with this- if you sharpen it so one flute is even 1 thou longer than the other you have made your 2 flute cutter into a single tooth cutter. It might cut OK, but it's no longer a 2 flute cutter. I don't believe anyone can freehand a 2 flute cutter and keep both flutes within a thou or less. I also don't believe anyone can freehand a drill and have really accurate flutes either, but a drill is more forgiving and we expect less accuracy with a drill than a mill. Someone mentioned Rudy's jig to hold an endmill on a bench grinder. I built one and it does work well enough, although I now have a real tool and cutter grinder and that's a lot better. ron ginger ------- Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2003 08:04:05 -0700 From: "Marcus and Eva" Subject: Re: Re: Mill Cutter Sharpen Hi Ron: You are, of course, correct. The spirit of my discussion however, was to point out workable ways for a bare bones hobbyist to get decent functionality out of his inventory of used cutters. Milling cutters are surprisingly forgiving in certain ways... for example, end mill holders almost never provide radial concentricity better than 0.001" and yet lots of cuts per day are taken with them and useful work is accomplished. Probably the majority of resharpened cutters, even those done on a cutter grinder, are not axially consistent within 0.0005" and strictly from the point of view of theory, an inch is as good (or bad) as a mile. In fact, brand new Garr endmills show variations of 0.0002" to 0.0003" from flute tip to flute tip: I know this because I set them up on the CNC every day, and when I pick up the height, I have to find the high flute to set up to. In other words, most of the cutters you will use today are actually acting as single flute cutters, if you set your criteria fine enough. So a guy with a bench grinder, a decent precision square, and a little bit of patience and knowledge of what to do, can indeed make a very decent job of restoring functionality to his cutter collection, and 2 flute cutters are far easier to restore in this way than 4 flute cutters. They will not perform quite as well as a new cutter, but they will be many orders of magnitude better than they were. Having said all that...I have a cutter grinder too, and like you, I can do a better job with it than without!!!! Cheers Marcus ------- Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2003 08:30:01 -0700 From: "Marcus and Eva" Subject: Re: Re: Mill Cutter Sharpen Hi Jerry: I'd like to provide a cautionary note to your discussion about cutter grinding using a Sherline machine base. Grinding dust is horrendously abrasive, and will get in everywhere. It will destroy the precision of your machine extremely quickly, and once it has embedded itself into the sliding surfaces, it cannot be removed without remachining or replacing those surfaces. Protect your machine extremely well if you intend to do this!!! You need to be obsessive almost to the point of ridiculousness, particularly with respect to the y axis ans Z axis sliding ways. (The screws and nuts will suffer too, but these are cheap to replace.) Grinding a teeny spade drill will not generate much dust, but hacking 0.100" off a 3/8" 4 flute endmill will generate an unholy amount of dirt. The aluminum and soft steels used in the Sherline are particularly poor for resistance to abrasion, and the grit will embed very quickly. Whatever you do, don't blow the machine off afterward...that's the quickest way to ruin even a surface grinder that's specifically designed to work in a dirty environment. You need smooth surfaced covers with no wrinkles to trap grit (no bits of shitty used tinfoil or Saran wrap) and a vacuum cleaner with a brush head. It also is prudent to mount a guard with a vacuum orifice (a guard of some sort is mandatory for safety, in my opinion) to minimize the grit that accumulates on the machine in the first place. You should also consider NOT lubricating the sliding surfaces of a machine used for grinding. It will last longer than it will if you have abrasive slurry on it (the oil will trap every last particle of grit that falls on it, and, of course, now you can't suck it off with the vacuum.). I'd save my oldest beater machine for this sort of task. Cheers Marcus ------- Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2003 20:24:21 -0000 From: "n2562001" Subject: Re: Mill Cutter Sharpen Marcus I appreciate your concern and suggestions. I have several Expensive pieces of eguipment that grinding dust would destroy in short order. You are correct that anytime you grind around equipment that cautions should be taken to protect the equipment. In regard to my Sherline equipment, I have occasionally sharpened small end mills etc. over the last ten years without any loss in accuracy or noticeable wear. My original intention was not to worry about abuse but to just replace the equipment when needed. Surprisingly I have not had to replace them yet. Jerry Kieffer ------- Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2003 11:01:09 -0400 From: "Ron Ginger" Subject: Re: Mill Cutter Sharpen I own a Delta Universal tool and Cutter grinder. This is a rather large machine by Sherline standards. I found it used, as I have all my machine tools. They are not common, but they are around. Be aware that a tool and cutter grinder needs a lot of 'friends' to go with it and you can spend way more on the various jigs and work holders than the base machine. I think the most wonderful thing in grinding for a small shop is a Quorn Tool and cutter grinder. This is an english design for a home shop construction. Casting kits are sold, but they are expensive- last I saw about US$400 or so. I would construct one from bar stock and forget the castings. A friend has one, and bought the kit, but found several of the castings unuseable and fabricated the parts. The book is readily available. And that brings me to Jerrys points about fabrication. I agree with him wholeheartedly. In fact I have purchased all of Kozo Hiroka's books just for the illustrations of his fabrication techniques. He is a master of it. Whenever you look at a complicated part look for ways to build it up from simpler parts. This would of course be to slow for commercial use, but for a modeler it makes possible doing very intricate models from simple parts. ron ginger ------- Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2003 20:40:36 -0500 From: "Rob Wren" Subject: Die sinkers Dan, take a look at die sinker cutters (McMaster-Carr and MSC carries them). They are available in several tapers and end radii. They will reach into the small deep parts of your mold for fine finishing work. I use them for intricate detail work on thermoform tooling. Rob Wren ------- Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2003 20:07:11 -0000 From: "flyhighchris" Subject: good instructions for grinding tool bits I found the following set of instructions for grinding tool bits. I'm sure the pros might find them unnessary, but if you are new like me it is worth a read. I followed their instructions and my tool worked! http://www.sherline.com/grinding.pdf ------- Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2003 22:01:43 -0700 (PDT) From: Scott Meyer Subject: Re: Re: How to keep cutting tools sharp..? [NOTE TO FILE: This lone message was copied out of a very long discussion on sharpening cutters, etc. on the sherline Yahoo group.] I'll take the bait. If you're a machinist, you have ruined more than a few parts, if you're a seasoned machinist you know how to fix them. If you do all the cuts, except for the finish cut, remove the tool to sharpen it, how do you hold a tight tolerance? You shouldn't sharpen a tool with less than 2 cuts to go - 1 to establish where the tool is, and 1 to finish the job. So even if your tool leaves a bad finish, doesnt cut, whatever, you can fix it and not ruin the part. If it isn't a tight tolerance, you have the metal to fix any problems caused by a bad tool bit. A seasoned machinist is going to be able to look at a tool, no gauges, and tell if it will cut well for his purpose. The exception would be drill bits, most, atleast many, use gauges to get proper angle and equal cutting edges. Remember the angles you read in the book are guidelines. Most lathe tools are in some type of rocker so you adjust to center of the work. As you tip the tool up and down to center the tool, does that affect the effective relief on the end of the tool? You bet! Does the book "ideal end relief angle" account for it? Nope, but experience will. I know very few businesses that use HSS lathe tools to any significant degree, most use carbide. The time saved is just too much of an advantage. The cutting speed is about 4x that of HSS. I have NEVER seen anyone sharpen a HSS lathe tool and use a gauge (other than threading tools, form tools, etc). Carbide I have once or twice. Usually you only sharpen brazed carbide, you grind the steel away a bit and then sharpen the carbide on a different wheel, and even then, gauges aren't used much. I have spent a few years in shops. I was not taught, either in high school, in college, or in the real world, to use a gauge to sharpen lathe tools. Sharpening lathe tool bits is not rocket science, it is not a precision operation, and it doesnt need to be. The seasoned machinists who were in the study or whatever it was, know that eyeballing it is good enough. When you are cutting, what part of the tool is touching the workpiece? How are the chips getting out of the way? Is there enough support for the cutting edge? Is there sufficent heat dissipation? That's what matters. An interesting side note, I was trying to buy a shop a number of years ago that drilled 1" dia holes very deep into steel, over a foot deep commonly. Nothing critical, just reasonably straight. They had worked out the craziest cutting edge for their drills. They took a brand new 1" dia drill, and sharpened it. They would have a 118deg point that was about 1/4" in dia, then they ground about a 3/8" concave radius for the rest of the cutting edge. The 1/4" dia portion would be just dark blue from the grinding heat. Crazier than hell, but they cut faster than any standard drill I have ever seen, and coolant/lubrication was an afterthought at best. Scott David wrote:And if it doesn't, and you've ruined the part, and your supervisor is breathing down your neck, then what? There was a comment made in this thread that only a couple out of 10 (or was it 20) seasoned machinists got a tool bit within 2 degrees by eye. So what? I betcha every single one of those tools would cut well. ------- Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 19:36:34 -0400 From: "Thomas R. Bank" Subject: Re: Lathe tool grinding gauge / was How to keep cutting tools sharp..? Marcus Carius wrote: <> I wince to admit it, but my favorite Sherline lathe tool is a HSS bit ground approximately 10 degrees back on both side and top and 10 degrees angling back from the point on the end surface. I put it in the tool holder one way to cut to the left and just flip it a quarter turn when cutting to the right. It is easy to touch up with one of those small diamond grit bars. It works so well for me that it is too much trouble to dig in my lathe parts box for special bits unless I need a special shape to achieve a special effect. I also grind my lathe tools on a belt sander rather than a grinding wheel. The reason is simple. I lack the experience to be able to do the job on a wheel without developing more scallops than a fish has scales (I do rough new bits to general shape with a white wheel just to save the belt). With the belt sander I have made boring bits that are as smoothly done as the one that Sherline sells, the square bit job, and they work as well. I got my sander from Lee Valley for fifty some dollars and equipped it with a used oil furnace motor. Tom Bank ------- Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 22:42:04 -0400 From: RichD Subject: Re: Re: How to keep cutting tools sharp..? > Anyone know of a reasonable prices tool bit sharpener? Glendo has a model > for $599 which is above my budget for once in a while sharpening. Eric, since you opened the door, the machine has been home built many times hereabouts with the 5" Glendo 600 grit diamond wheel. There are no drawings available, everyone just makes it his way. I studied the catalog picture, saw the specs and whipped up my own copy out of scrap box stuff. :-)) Do make it reversible, ~340 RPM. RichD ------- Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 00:12:03 -0500 From: "Gordon Couger" Subject: Re: Re: How to keep cutting tools sharp..? Get one example of a tool to see what the angles are and visualize how your tool will engage the work. All that matters is the cutting face of the tool must be all that touches the work, and everything else must be ground so it clears. Adding rake can make things go faster on some materials like aluminium and you can do fancy things with the chips. But all you need is the cutting face engaging the work and everything else ground to clear the work. This gets tricky for an inside threading tool and a 45 degree boring bit but most other things are not too bad. Get some 1/4 inch tool steel and practice it doesn't take long to grind a 1/4 inch bit and they are cheap. Practice until you know if it will work before you try it. A lot of it is coordination of your hands and making sure you don't ruin the edge on the grinder. Once you have 1/4 inch tools down, the big ones will be easy but slow. Guess at the angle and then measure it and see how close you can get. Once you learn it, you have it for life. I learned to sharpen bits free hand 40 years ago and I skipped 20 years and never touched one and it was just like riding a bicycle. It also got me all the nasty drilling jobs in the shop that screwed up bits because the foreman and I were the only ones that could sharpen a bit. Mill bits are harder than lathe bits but once you learn how they are supposed to look, and why they don't look that way, you're there. Just try it until you get it right. It won't take that long. Good luck Gordon ------- Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 00:09:33 EDT From: catboat15x~xxaol.com Subject: Re: Digest Number 1235 [SHERLINE GROUP] eabracherx~xxaol.com writes: > I know there are different angles for cutting different metals. > Has anyone put out a list of angles for various metals? > Say one for Aluminum. another for brass and another for steel, etc.eric Several handbooks give this information and the manual that came with my Atlas Lathe has that information. But, the problem with the tables and some other recomendations are that they are designed for production shops. Where maximum tool life and product output means money in the bank. I think most of us cutting metal as part of our hobbies can't really take advantage of the tables as we may be cutting a brass cylinder for an engine then pick up a chunk of aluminum for the piston and when that is done use some hard bronze for the bearings as well as steel for shafting. This implies a whole lot of tools around or constant regrinding of shapes. I try to grind kind of a universal tool shape that gives good finish and reasonable cutting speed. The old time American lathes usually had lantern type tool posts with a wedge and rocker. When using 1/4 square bits they come with front rake already formed and the Armstrong tool holders give automatic back rake so actually little grinding or shaping is needed to make a reasonable tool unless you want to add chip breakers or special shapes for that really odd job you are working on. Whatever angles you grind on your grinder it seems the most important thing is to keep a stone nearby, a diamond hone for harder stuff or an Arkansas stone for HSS and polish up that cutting tip, makes a big difference in tool life and the finish on the work. John in the high desert of California 12 inch Atlas Mini Mill Rusty file ------- Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2003 11:57:14 -0700 From: "Bob May" Subject: Re: Rebushing a backhoe with the Atlas 10F Several things to remmber when making tool bits. Make the edge a good straight line rather than let it wander about in depth from the face. The good looking edge looks like it was done on a nice flat grinder. The cutting edge needs to be the trailing edge of the grind. Putting the edge on the leading edge tends to make the edge rounded. Make sure that the majority of the cutting edge has a slightly larger angle for the undercut and finish up on the edge with the right angle. Those cheap diamond stones are nice for finishing cutters edges. Try not to use the top of the cutter to do any relief of the cutter edge as this tends to shorten the life of that cutter as you will eventually grind it all away. It is acceptable to stone the top of a cutter to help in getting rid of the curled edge but only as much as is necessary to get that sharp edge that cuts so well. Bob May http://nav.to/bobmay NEW! http://bobmay.astronomy.net ------- Date: Sat, 04 Oct 2003 18:19:30 -0700 From: Donald Qualls Subject: Re: sharpening flycutters catfish7251 wrote: > I set up my HF 7X10 lathe to use for milling, A flycutter seemed like > the right tool for my project, MY question is how do I sharpen my HSS > tools for a facing and edge cut. A fly cutter makes an intermittent cut, so it should be ground more like a shaper bit than a lathe tool. Typically, that means more support for the edge than you'd need with a lathe tool. That said, people have gotten many-many hours of good work from presharpened right hand lathe tools, if the fly cutter holds the tool at right angles to the work. If the cutter holds the tool at a sharp angle, like some premade fly cutters, you may need a narrower nose angle than you'd usually use. Donald Qualls, aka The Silent Observer Lathe Building Pages http://silent1.home.netcom.com/HomebuiltLathe.htm Speedway 7x12 Lathe Pages http://silent1.home.netcom.com/my7x12.htm ------- Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2003 09:27:02 -0400 From: "Statman Designs, LLC" Subject: Re: Re: Carbide inserts. > Hi Dan, I was reading some of the previous posting and you advise to > obtain inserts to replace those that come with the imports tools for > the Sherline. I just bought a set of those tools and would like where > do you get your inserts and which kind are you getting. I know they > are the tt221 types. There are several grades, c2, c5 etc. Which ones > do you have experience with. Thanks, Jose. I troll on ebay for them. One day I hit the jackpot and got 100 TiN coated Kennametal inserts for about $35 (These retail for approx $10 apiece). I have been using these for over 2 years and I still have about 30-40 of them left. J&L Industrial sells any inserts that you could want. The grade you want depends on the materials you will cut, I have no advice for you in this regard. Daniel J. Statman, Statman Designs www.statmandesigns.com dan.statmanx~xxrennlist.com ------- Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2003 01:12:51 -0400 From: Stan Stocker Subject: Re: Sharpening Flycutter? mmurray701 wrote: > I'm having some problems keeping an edge on my flycutter. I have it > set so it cuts a diameter of about 1.5", and I'm running it at > around 1200-1500 RPM in aluminium. I do realize that this is way to > fast but the time it saves is worth the wear. > It still seemed to last quite some time before resharpening and then > just a few minuites on a stone and it was fine again. > Its been sharpened quite a few times now and its no longer staying > sharp for as long. It cuts great after sharpening it but seems to > loose its edge after just a half dozen or so parts. I guess I'm > doing something wrong. I know there are alot of factors here but is > there anything obvious that i'm likely doing wrong to cause it to > cut great but then quickly loose its edge? Thanks in advance. Mark Hi Mark, Take a look at the tool angles. It sounds like you may have ground in too much rake, clearance, or both. This results in a very sharp edge that is poorly supported and wears out quickly. You may also have lost your tip radius so the point is doing more of the cutting through any skin than before. This is all assuming that you are using the same material as before. I run flycutters fast also. Have you changed your grinding process by any chance? If you are now grinding parallel to the cutting edge for touch up, while having originally ground perpendicular to the edge, the edge will not last as long unless you stone off all grinding marks. Cheers, Stan ------- Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2003 11:03:50 -0400 From: Stan Stocker Subject: Re: Sharpening Flycutter? Carol & Jerry Jankura wrote: > I wonder if the cutter has gotten hot enough to lose some of its hardness, > which would account for your having to sharpen it more. You might want > to consider a carbide cutter instead. Hi Jerry, If the cutter is HSS it would have had to be heated to above a red heat to loose it's hardness. Unlike simple carbon steels like drill rod, 1090, and the like, HSS was created for production use where the cutter tip is allowed to run quite hot. You can grab an HSS toolbit in vise grips, hog out the profile, and let cool in air. Then grind off about 5 thou in the final grinding, which removes the surface microcracks created during the aggressive grinding. Just don't dunk a real hot HSS cutter in water to cool, it creates much deeper cracks in the steel. Many of the older books that are around don't account for HSS, they expect the cutter to be hardened and tempered carbon steel blanks, hence the common presence of a dunk pot by the grinder in many instructions. The characteristics of HSS also means that unless you have a heat treat oven with the ability to control the profile you can't reliably harden or temper HSS in the small shop. If you look at the heat treat profiles for modern complex steels, they tend to involve soaks at several temperatures, with specified rates of change between each stage. I'm sure not that good with a torch and quench bucket :-) You may luck out now and then, you may end up with a cutter that works, but you won't consistently end up with HSS edges that behave as good HSS should. Cheers, Stan ------- Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2003 18:22:10 -0000 From: "Art Volz" Subject: Tool & Cutter Grinders (Spin-off thread from Gear Cutting thread) [NOTE TO FILE: Some links mentioned were corrected by Art in a later message; the corrections were also made here in this message copy.] Gears being a major part of most machine tools, especially the shaper, the cutting of gears has been a recent and continuing thread. One of the major problems "discovered" was that the standard gear cutters are of HSS and expensive, but are re-sharpenable with a proper Tool & Cutter Grinder which is especially necessary after cutting hard and/or abrasive materials. After several hours of searching the net this AM, I have found 4 tool & cutter grinder casting kits and/or drawings on hobbyist type tool and cuter grinders: 1. QUORN TOOL & CUTTER GRINDER: Australia: http://www.hobbymechanics.com.au/quorn.htm (kits). United Kingdom (Model Engineering Services): http://www.lawm.freeserve.co.uk/cutter_grind.htm with prices at http://www.lawm.freeserve.co.uk/price_list.htm . They also have the KENNET tool grinder with much less capabilities. http://easyweb.easynet.co.uk/~chrish/quorn.htm Portland, Oregon: http://users.easystreet.com/depmco/martinmodels/products.htm . Chaddock's book: http://wiseowl.safeshopper.com/645/cat645.htm?712 at $29.75. A good build article by Ron Chernich: http://www.metalwebnews.com/howto/quorn/quorn.html . Some other PIX and notes on the Quorn: http://easyweb.easynet.co.uk/~Chrish/quorn.htm . http://www.nmpproducts.com/quorntxt.htm . Then back up on the address to see products especially to see a Quorn replacement casting using R8 collets: "large Spiraling Head Assembly". http://mysite.freeserve.com/locomotives/page8.html . 2. TINKER TOOL & CUTTER GRINDER: http://lautard.com/tinker.htm . A good build article is Bob Dorin's at-- http://www.metalwebnews.com/howto/tinker/tinker.html . 3. STENT TOOL & CUTTER GRINDER: Castings are available from: http://www.blackgateseng.freeserve.co.uk/body_wkequip.html . Stent PIX and plans for a jig on PDF and links to Brooks accessory: http://www.homepages.mcb.net/howe/Workshop%20Tools.htm . Other Stent PIX: http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/alanhopwood , http://home.vicnet.net.au/~bsme/StentT&C.htm , http://www.aonx97.dsl.pipex.com/WS-page/wshpage.htm#stent . 4. BONELLE TOOL & CUTTER GRINDER: A complete set of 62 pages of dimensioned plans in PDF format provided by Don Willis (1.07Mb): http://www.alanstepney.info/Bonelle.pdf . Additional PIX are supposedly at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/quorn_owners/files , but the "owner" hasn't allowed me to be a member as of yet. Waiting in dire anticipation! This is an almost dead group--maybe "Photos" and "Files" may be of interest--very FEW messages posted per month. If the URLs don't work, play with them. Yahoo still doesn't have a "review before posting" function that allows pre-posting trial of URLs. Anyone have any others, some ideas on better modifications, etc & etc??? Time to get the brain acid warmed up and start perking! Of the 4 tool and cutter grinders described, the "Tinker" is probably the cheapest and easiest to construct--it also appears to be the one most limited in capabilities. Art (Houston) ------- Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2003 09:48:54 +0200 From: Tinker Subject: Re: Re: Tool & Cutter Grinders (Spin-off thread from Gear Cutting thread) Guy Lautard bought the rights to sell plans for the "Tinker" from Norman Tinker who apparently lives in Nottingham. I found this out only last week! Where I come from, "Ain't worth a Tinkers cuss" was the idiom, I suspect the "Tinkers" of more than just damning !. As to use, I'm interested in sharpening shaper and lathe tools, and when I get it finished milling tools for my twice size gingery mill. According to Guy Lautard the Tinker is capable with modification, of sharpening circular saw blades, might be very useful to me. Matthew Tinker ------- Date: Sat, 8 Nov 2003 08:18:24 -0500 From: Kuechenmeister Subject: Re: Grinding bits for a flycutter > I've got a flycutter attachment that uses 3/8" square bits held in a > longitudal sort of orientation so the cutting is really done by what > would be considered the "side" if you looked at the bit in the normal > turning orientation. When I got it, it had no bits so I don't have a > good reference for grinding new bits. Grind them just like you would for a lathe with 10 deg. relief, side rake, and back rake angles. I've always interchanged my 3/8 in. bits and had excellent results with the fly cutter. Just be sure you put the correct "hand" orientation in the fly cutter, I can't remember if it's right or left hand bits. I always have look at it when I am putting the bit in the fly cutter. Dave Kuechenmeister Lawrenceville, GA ------- Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2003 13:41:10 -1000 (HST) From: Tom Benedict Subject: Re: REALLY simple question > Looking an entering the world of Taig metal working with a lathe & > milling accessories. Making small parts primarily out of Aluminum. > Amateur woodworker & woodturner (Nova lathe), accomplished home > mechanic, NO machining background. Well, I can admit to having a machining background but very little background in woodworking. I'm also trying out woodturning, and have a LOT of respect for people who can do that. If you can hold a tool steady and turn out two identical table legs, using a metal turning lathe is going to be a quick learn for you. > Question: To what end do you need to get the colletts & closer? > Would you not have greater flexibility holding the milling bits, etc., > with a Jacobs chuck fixed on the headstock? The Jacobs chuck isn't entirely designed for grabbing end mills. They're typically made for grabbing something with a soft shank. Most drills have hardened cutting surfaces, but the shanks are left soft. The Jacobs chuck really kinda needs that in order to work well. End mills are hardened throughout. Be that as it may I've done it. You have to be careful and take lighter cuts than if you had it mounted in a collet or tool holder, but it's doable. > Trying to determine what parts are necessary vs. a luxury when starting > out. I'd definitely get the collets. They can be used on the lathe for gripping really small stock. The runout on the collets is typically quite low, so you don't have to dink around with indicating the stock in when you use them. I got a set with my lathe and with my mill, so I've got two. To tell the truth it's sometimes nice to have the extras. One point I'm not sure is made strongly enough on the Taig site: If you get a lathe and a mill, keep in mind that accessories for the one fit the other. The collets will work in the mill and in the lathe. You can even get a 4-jaw chuck for the lathe and stick it on the mill. It's a nice design. The larger question you're asking is a little tougher to answer. I use all my accessories quite often. If you asked me if they're luxuries or necessities, I'd probably laugh my heartiest laugh and say, "They're all wonderfully luxurious necessities!" In the strictest sense almost none of them are necessary. Dave Gingery wrote an excellent set of books on how to make a machine shop from scratch. Among other things he shows you how to start with a raw casting, generate a faceplate, use that to generate angle brackets, use those to generate other tooling, and use all of it to generate a four jaw chuck. (Ok, so he actually begins earlier than that and shows you how to generate a lathe out of scrap metal and casting sand.) But you get the idea. That being said, I'd still consider some things to be necessary. Not from the standpoint of "It will technically be impossible to do things without them", but from the standpoint of, "It's a heckuva lot more fun WITH them." The collets are one. A four-jaw chuck and test dial indicator are others. Multiple toolposts so each tool can be shimmed up in its own toolholder is another. A Jacobs chuck and tailstock is another. These are things I use almost daily. It's important that your tools not frustrate you to the point that you put them down and don't pick them up. Luxuries are sometimes more necessary than we give them credit for. When I first tooled up I tried to get only what I needed. In the end I went back and got the other stuff as well. Tom ------- Date: Thu, 27 Nov 2003 23:32:16 -0000 From: "yrrab57" Subject: Re: Received my new Taig lathe today --- In taigtoolsx~xxyahoogroups.com, "edgerrin322000" wrote: > anyone has any beginner's setup tips or things to watch for, I am > all ears. Thanks. As a fellow new boy I would like to push hard Tom Benedict's advice regarding sharpness of your tools. I ploughed away at several jobs for a month or two and got pretty fed up because of the rough finish I was getting. I finaly managed to find someone who knew what they were doing and it turned out that the tools were not sharp at all. This guy went home, returned with a tool bit that he knew was sharp and proceeded to make my day by turning a great finish on a pice of metal that I had previously made a right mess of. My tools were direct from the supplier but were apparantly not sharp. I have just bought a grinder which I understand is just about an essential piece of kit if you are going to run a lathe. Good luck and do use this group. Its a real asset. ------- NOTE TO FILE: other messages from this thread about advice to the new owner of a Taig lathe can be found in the Taig Lathe Tips file. There is good info in all the lathe files of any brand -- for users of any other brand. Think, and read, outside your own brand. ------- Date: Thu, 27 Nov 2003 14:53:55 -1000 (HST) From: Tom Benedict Subject: Re: Re: Received my new Taig lathe today As a follow-up to this... The same day I wrote that bit about using sharp tools, I was using a boring head on the mill at work. MAN that was a lousy finish. I checked the gibs (the knee gib was loose), I checked the boring head (initially the slide was loose, but some quick wrench work fixed that), I checked EVERYTHING. Finally the machinist I work with came in, whiffed the air, and said, "So how's it going?" "Not bad," I said. "Not bad but not good? What's wrong?" At this point I knew he knew I was getting a nasty finish, just from the smell of oil in the air. "I can't get a decent finish on this bored hole." He took one look at the setup and said, "New boring bar?" Sure 'nuff the thing had no relief whatsoever on it. He re-ground the tool, and the rest of the cutting experience was pure bliss. Any time you get new tools, don't trust them to be sharp OR to have decent geometry. My entire set of boring bars flunked both qualifications. And even after dishing out that advice on lathe tools I totally forgot it when I went to the mill. DOH! Lots of forehead slapping that day. We live, we learn, we cut more metal. Tom ------- Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2003 02:10:10 -0000 From: "Robin S." Subject: Re: Part fixturing... [HERE CHANGES TO SHARPEN END MILLS] --- In taigtoolsx~xxyahoogroups.com, Paul Anderson wrote: > As regards sharpening 1/8" end mills, I'm not certain that > it can even be done by anyone other than a professional shop. Rarely is it an issue of someone being able to do it. Rather, it is an issue of whether it is worth your time. > In many cases, it's better to replace the end-mill than to sharpen it. > Sharpening the end-mill will reduce the size that it cuts to, making > indicating work less accurate. Resharpened end-mills are best reserved > for roughing work only. I don't think that's fair at all. Many times, an endmill will be used to face a surface, so the actual size of the cutter doesn't really matter. Also, a tenths-reading micrometer will accurately measure an endmill fairly easily if you're doing CNC work (that's what cutter compensation is for) or perhaps pocketing with a DRO or somesuch. At work, we just stick our toasted endmills in a box and get them sent out every so often. Other than the reduced diameter, they look as good as new. Regards, Robin ------- Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2003 03:20:13 -0000 From: "minitool41" Subject: Miniature Lathe Cutting Tool Holder (Since I'm new to this board during the past 30 days, I probably have missed a previous discussion on this topic. If so, can anyone direct me to the appropriate message period?) Note: All work is done on a Sherline lathe and/or mill. I am currently interested in making miniature (1/3 to 1/12 scale) models of classic woodworking hand tools (planes, saws, drills, etc). As I move to the smaller scale, I find that my "normal" turning tools no longer meet my needs. I have cut a few smaller tools from 1/8" steel, but I'm not happy with the method of supporting the tools for end loads. (I work basically in brass, ivory, hard woods, and a little low carbon steel). I think I've seen a tool holder which uses short, stub tool bits, but now I can't find any reference to this system. Can anyone suggest an available holding system? On a related problem, I also feel that the appropriate profiles of the miniature tooling might be different from the "normal" lathe tools. As an example, I've seen a very expensive set of cutting tools made for use in a watchmaker's cross slide. Their shapes were quite different, probably appropriate for the needs of a watchmaker. Can anyone suggest tool profiles that are used to best advantage on miniature turning projects? Thanks, John Maki ------- Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2003 23:36:12 -0500 From: RichD Subject: Re: Miniature Lathe Cutting Tool Holder John, for a treat, do a search on google.com for "hamler tools". Paul lives nearby. Amaaaaazzing stuff. RichD ------- Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2003 22:34:33 -0800 (PST) From: John Maki Subject: Re: Miniature Lathe Cutting Tool Holder RichD, I've spoken with Paul Hamler a few times regarding his miniature woodworking tools. He is truly an artist. He has also been very helpful, sharing his knowledge and the techniques that he uses to create his little gems. In addition, he is a real Gentleman! Paul has also developed many different manufacturing tools and processes used in the production of his miniatures. I believe he holds a patent on a "diamond drag cutter" used for engraving. The cutter is now being manufactured and sold under license by another company...(The name escapes me at the moment!) I've used one with my CNC mill to engrave some of my miniature planes, and it performs very nicely! John Maki ------- Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2003 17:30:29 -0000 From: jlkiefferx~xxcharter.net Subject: Re: Miniature Lathe Cutting Tool Holder John, I seldom use tools other than a 1/4" brazed carbide AR4 and a E4. ( threading tool ) For boring I generally use micro 100 solid carbide or similar brand and size. They sell a very nice small boring bar set. These tools are used as they come from the factory for all materials including wood. Part sizes range from the largest that will fit into the machines down to smaller than watch parts. I have 1/16" and 1/8" tool sets but rarely use them because at least for me they have not offered any advantage over the 1/4" tools. If you have a specific example maybe I or someone else can make a suggestion on how to machine it with larger tools. If your more comfortable with smaller tools , tool holders are quit easy to make. Jerry Kieffer ------- Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2003 17:24:52 -0800 From: "Orrin Iseminger" Subject: Re: mill collet grip capabilities The end mill holder versus collet argument raises its ugly head from time to time. Those who advocate end mill holders are the ones who have spoiled a piece of work by using a collet. Those who advocate collets are the ones who've been lucky, so far. They'll get theirs, sooner or later. Use an end mill holder. Orrin p.s. I've been told that end mills slip in collets because it is extremely hard for one smooth, hardened surface to grip another smooth, hardened surface. So, that's why end mill holders are recommended. A setscrew fitting into a flat on the end mill shank will prevent slippage. Why do end mill manufacturers put that flat on the shank? For collets? No. For end mill holders. ------- Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1970 16:32:49 -0800 From: "Wm. Dubin" Subject: Re: mill collet grip capabilities I use collets only for mill's 1/8" or smaller... usually I use them with a 1/32" ball end mill. For obvious reasons, both the depth and speed of cut must be kept in mind with a mill this small, and so I've never had a problem. For larger mill sizes, I wouldn't use the Sherline, but would go up to 5C collets. I use these in a set of square/hexigon block holders (again with the sherline mill, but this time the cutter is in an end mill holder and the work is in the 5C collet. Wm. ------- Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2003 08:59:02 -0800 From: "Marcus and Eva" Subject: Re: mill collet grip capabilities I have been following this thread with some interest; here are my notions, for what they're worth: End mill holders are a perfectly legitimate way to hold milling cutters provided the following is kept in mind. *First, the concentricity of the cutter in the holder depends on the diameter of the cutter!!!! Repeat this to yourselves three times, because I've seen lots of guys who really should know better, totally ignore this, and wind up with all kinds of undesirable consequences. What is the solution: buy only a single brand of cutter, and make sure it's from a reputable manufacturer. My personal choices are Garr for carbide and Niagara for HSS. Make sure the end mill holder is the correct size for the cutter...this means, if you're fussy about runout, that your endmill holder NEEDS to be home made, on the spindle on which it will be run, and it NEEDS to be single point bored and then lapped or honed to size. Do it any other way, and you're fooling yourself about your cutter runout. You want no more than 0.0002" diameter difference between the cutter diameter and the bore size of the holder. *Second point: cutter runout matters only under some very specific conditions. Small cutters care much more than large cutters do, unless you are concerned about the longevity of the cutter. When an undersize cutter is clamped in a nominally sized hole, the cutter will swing eccentrically like a crank- shaft. This means that only one flute will cut, but it will still theoretically cut the same size as the bore that the cutter was put into. On a big cutter, no problem. But on a small cutter, the eccentric slapping will break the cutter. The same is true for very small drilling...if the drill is forced to walk an eccentric path it will be forced to flex continuously as it rotates. As the constrained end gets closer to the job, the forces get higher and higher; eventually breaking the drill. * Third point...collets are rarely much better than properly set up end mill holders for runout. Try clamping a dowel pin in a mill collet sometime and see how repeatable it is. This usually becomes far more apparent once the collet and chuck have been used a bit...for obvious reasons. * Fourth point...collets are far more flexible than end mill holders... especially spring collets like the ER series. They'll hold a bigger range of diameters, all with roughly the same concentricity, and very importantly, they allow you to clamp the shank at a variety of lengths...short and stubby for heavy cutting, as well as long reach for access to features deep in the part. * Fifth point...end mill holders are cheap (especially home made) and collets are pricey. * Last point: both are perfectly adequate means to hold your cutters if they are used properly: Collets will allow a cutter to crawl out (unless they're a style like the Clarkson Autolock), so you can't take as heavy a bite without risking cutter protrusion. Hope this all helps Cheers Marcus ------- Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2003 21:13:00 -0400 From: "Neil Albert" Subject: RE: mill collet grip capabilities >>>Hi, Neil: Have you thought of buying a blank arbor from Taig (the headstock threads are the same as on the Sherline headstock), cutting about 0.09 inches off of the threaded end, and boring the blank end to hold the 1/4 inch diameter mill? You'd then grind a flat on the side of the endmill and put a setscrew on the arbor. I've done this same operation, but to make a 1/2 inch diameter end mill holder for a few cutters. -- Jerry <<< Jerry, I just looked at it and the price is certainly right, but I don't know if I trust myself to bore a nicely centered hole using my mill spindle as a lathe and holding a tool bit in a vice. Neil ------- Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2003 22:03:29 -0800 From: zephyrusx~xxrickadee.net Subject: RE: mill collet grip capabilities Works like a charm, Neil. I did exactly that when I made 5 or 6 endmill holders for/on my 5400. I drilled comfortably undersize and then snuck up on the diameter with many small boring passes. I raised the head way up after each pass and tried the hole using an endmill that I had miked to be sure of its own diameter. It was no harder to set "center height" of the boring bar on the mill than on the lathe (the steel rule trick.) I left them about .001" undersize, then reamed with a .375" reamer using a drill press mainly to take out the residual taper (I stopped boring when the endmill would just barely enter the beginning of the bore.) Best regards, Randy ------- Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2003 12:35:52 -0400 From: "Neil Albert" Subject: RE: mill collet grip capabilities Randy, Now, you just reminded me of what additional item I needed from Sherline when I placed an order for a 1/4" end mill holder-the smaller of the 2 size size Sherline boring bars. The one I have only goes down to 5/16". Using the boring head, would I hold the blank arbor in a vice? What IS the steel rule trick. The only way I can think of the get the "center height" (or center windage in this case, I guess) would be to use my edge finder one or both sides of the arbor's diameter. Neil ------- Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2003 11:10:57 -0800 From: zephyrusx~xxrickadee.net Subject: Endmill holder, was RE: mill collet grip capabilities No, you use the mill like a lathe turned sideways. Put the arbor blank on the spindle and clamp a lathe boring bar (square-shanked in my case--it was one I ground from a lathe tool blank) in the mill vise so it is vertical. I did that so the cutting edge was pointing to the left, so that the X axis became the "cross slide" and the Y axis became the "cutter height adjustment". On a lathe I set the cutter right at center of the workpiece by moving the cutter to the outside of the workpiece, taking a steel rule and pinching it gently between the cutter and the workpiece with the rule vertical. The rule will be tangent to the workpiece where the cutter touches it. If the rule is vertical, the cutter is right on center. If the top of the rule slants towards you, the cutter is below center; if the top of the rule slants away from you, the cutter is below center. I did that on the mill, but obviously with the rule horizontal (think "lathe turned on the side") Then I just used the mill like a lathe, with the arbor blank as the workpiece. The mill vise holds the toolbit very securely (on the lathe you trust two little setscrews to hold the tool steady...) That way, the endmill holder is made right on the spindle it will be working with. Best regards, Randy ------- Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2004 10:49:31 -0000 From: "Terence T.S. Tam" Subject: Re: End Mill Holder [taigtools group] I used a lot of carbide end mills. At the beginning I've destroyed a few dremel cutoff tools trying to grind flats into them. Solution? Loctite blue on the bit to hold them in the end mill holder, then apply heat with a propane torch to get it off when I'm done. Or when the bit breaks. The blank arbors are so cheap, and with a CNC setup it's just so much more convinent and time saving to keep every bit in its own collet. Terence ------- Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2004 00:05:32 -0800 From: Dave Martindale Subject: Re: sharpening lathe tools >Hello Guys & Gals---I live in Naples Fl. and checked the tool sharpening >services and machine shops to sharpen the 1/4'' lathe tools---no luck. A >local hobbyist says he buys new on the internet and throws the dull tools >away. Seems like a waste BUT. Some of the tools on e-bay sound like a >bargain--are they junk or???? any advice?----Bob V. Are you talking about sharpening HSS or carbide tools? Both can be done, but need different grinding wheels. HSS can be ground with aluminum oxide, though special wheels designed for hardened steel are better than what comes on grinders. For carbide, you'll need a silicon carbide wheel (or diamond!) - the aluminum oxide wheel won't touch carbide. I first tried grinding a HSS tool bit on a 6 inch grinder with tool rests that were not adjustable for angle. This was an incredibly frustrating experience, since I needed to remove a substantial amount of metal (starting from a blank, not an existing toolbit) without any way of holding the angle of the tool to the wheel. Later, I bought a DeWalt grinder with nice big flat rests that can be adjusted for angle, and it is *much* better. I've used it for both HSS and brazed carbide bits, and it works for both. Another useful accessory: I have a single-point diamond dresser that I use to make the surface of the wheels flat. The dresser is just a round metal rod with a diamond mounted in the end. I clamp it in a fixture that I can slide along the front of the grinder's toolrest, which makes the diamond point travel in a straight line. To dress a wheel, I start out with a star wheel type dresser, which cleans the surface and exposes nice sharp abrasive grains, and makes the wheel have an approximately square face. Then I take a tiny bit more off with the diamond, which makes the wheel concentric to the grinder bearing axis and have a flat face. Recently, I took the crummy rests off the old grinder, mounted it on a board, and then mounted one of Lee Valley's adjustable grinder rests on the board. This is intended for sharpening plane blades and wood lathe tools, but it looks like it would be usable for sharpening metal lathe toolbits as well. Basically, you need *something* that will hold the toolbit on a plane that makes a particular angle with the wheel, to give you the right clearance or rake angle. The second angle can be controlled freehand if the first one is set by the rest. By the way, grinding carbide with a green SiC wheel is *slow*. Dave ------- Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2004 16:51:27 -0000 From: "Bryan Hassing" Subject: Should I use carbide lathe tools? I am considering buying Sherline's 3/8" carbide insert tool holders (one each of the right side and left side tools) and the accompanying 3/8" tool post. I don't cut exotic materials since my lathe work really only involves aluminum, brass, and plastic. However, I blow at sharpening HSS tools and find it a bit of a pain. Given that I'm cutting pretty easily machined materials, I suspect carbide tools would last for a very long time in my shop. Therefore, I wouldn't be spending much on inserts. I also admire the carbide inserts' uniform geometry and believe the 55-degree inserts would work well with the shapes I have been cutting for my projects. Joe Martin states in his book "Table Top Machining" that the best finishes in aluminum come from HSS tools. Can excellent finishes in aluminum be achieved using carbide tools as well? Could list members here who have used carbide lathe tools advise me on how carbide tools might perform cutting aluminum, brass, and plastic and how cutting speeds might be affected? Thanks. Bryan ------- Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2004 11:15:42 -0600 From: "Nance, Tom" Subject: RE: Should I use carbide lathe tools? Hi Bryan. I think tip radius affects the finish more that the hardness or the material of the tool. Just thought I'd toss that in to really muddy up the waters. I thought I couldn't sharpen HSS tools either. Then one day I found that all I had in the shop was dull HSS bits, so I gave it a try. Turned out to be child's play. I think most folks overthink the problem. The secret is getting the right kind of wheel on your grinder. The shape of the bit doesn't have to be an exact shape - it just needs certain ballpark characteristics (like relief) and be sharp. That's all there is to it. I also strop the bits on a stone, but that's just me. Anyway, I guess what I'm saying is don't give up on sharpening. It saves a wad of cash over the long run. Plus, someday you are going to need some really weird shaped tool, and the only way to get it is to do it yourself. Unless you have built the confidence to grind it yourself, you will be stuck. Tom Nance Corpus Christi, TX ------- Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2004 17:32:07 -0000 From: "n2562001" Subject: Re: Should I use carbide lathe tools? Bryan: I do not use carbide inserts but use brazed carbide tools on everything including wood. Since you have variable speed just adjust your speed until you get the finish you desire. With aluminum you will need to use some type of cutting fluid. I generally use WD-40 but there are many items that work well. If you wish to purchase a 55 degree insert tool [it is] P/N 7610. Jerry Kieffer ------- Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2004 17:51:10 -0000 From: "Bryan Hassing" Subject: Re: Should I use carbide lathe tools? Hi Jerry: What advantages do brazed carbide tools offer for the type of work you do such that you have choosen them over HSS tools? I do, however, agree with Tom that I should continue improving my sharpening skills. Incidentally, I was reading "Table Top Machining" last night and was awestruck by your magnificent work. ------- Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2004 18:36:32 -0000 From: "n2562001" Subject: Re: Should I use carbide lathe tools? Bryan: First thank you for the kind words. Fortunately pictures can highlight the best of a project while covering up ones mistakes. Tooling is a personal preference. My only point was that carbide tooling can be used for most any material witch I think was your question. I started using brazed carbide tools when I became to lazy and impatient to adjust the tool height every time I sharpened HSS tools. The 1/4 inch tools generally fit in the Sherline tool holder with out any shimming or adjustment and come from the factory ground to a shape that works well for the work that I do. They are fast and easy to change,last about 150-200 hours and only cost about $3.50 each. With proper speed and occasional use of cutting fluids, finish has never been a problem including watch parts. If I knew what I know now when I started, I would have tried one of each tool and selected the one that worked for what I was doing. Jerry Kieffer ------- Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2004 17:58:13 -0800 (PST) From: BRADFORD CHAUCER Subject: Re: sharpening tools Sharpening lathe tools is an easy task. You do need a bench grinder with at least a coarse and medium wheel; 8 in preferred. There is an interesting alternative. I picked up a diamond disk, about 4 in dia and arbor at a woodworking show. The disk has nummmerous holes in it and is meant to be used in an electric drill. The point of the holes is that you grind from underneath and can see the grinding surface through the rotating plate!! It really works quite well. You color the surface to be ground with a marker and can then easily see how the grind is progressing as the marker tinted surface is ground away. That allows you to see exactly how the tool is presented to the wheel. Any how I digress, Some sort of power grinder is essential. wheels should be al oxide or carborundum (dark geay) for High carbon, HSS and Stellite, and eithor silicon carbide, diamond or borazon for carbide tooling. You also need a few good bench stones and most importantly a few grades of diamond hones for touching up a tool. It is possible to go a long period between regrinds if you touch up the cutting edge periodically with a hone or bench stone. I keep several at hand at all times. Regards, Bradford Chaucer ------- Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2004 23:02:56 -0500 From: RichD Subject: Re: Re: sharpening tools Bradford and all, If you want the ultimate tool sharpener, see the Glendo machines and diamond wheels. The flat discs (5 or 6") on a home built machine is the best thing going. The circular wheel for a bench grinder is also well worth the price. Both are for HSS and carbide. Also replace the grey wheels on your bench grinder with industrial grade white vitreous al oxide wheels. Made for fine HHS tool grinding. RichD ------- Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2004 01:52:49 EST From: anthrhodesx~xxaol.com Subject: Re: Collet Chuck: Design Wanted Fri, 16 Jan 2004, Nigel Spurr writes: << Atlas did produce a lever operated collett system. It should not be too difficult to make one. Afer all, Hardinge merely use a threaded drawbar that is nipped tight by a lever and Hardinge lathes are VERY good. Having used a Hardinge, I can help in the design of a system. >> I would greatly appreciate any assistance with the design of such a system. The thing about a lever operated drawbar is that it includes a clutching mechanism that keeps the drawbar under tension (to keep the collet closed) while enabling the bearing in the operating lever to be released from load except during the act of engaging or disengaging the collet. When the collet is engaged there is no load on the bearing. When the collet is disengaged there is no load on the bearing. The only times when there is any load on the bearing id during the trasition from fully disengaged to fully engaged or vice versa. This is the same kind of mechanism which is used on clutch/brake devices for engaging a machine drive or stopping a spindle from speed. In the case of the lever operated drawbar, there is a cam that rides concentric with the drawbar but is not directly attached to the drawbar. During movement of the cam to the engaged position it moves fingers on a bracket which *is* attached to the drawbar. This bracket and the fingers are placed on the drawbar in such a position that the movement of the fingers pry on the back of the spindle to pull on the drawbar. While the collet is engaged there is tension on the drawbar but not on the operating lever and its bearing. It's a tricky piece of work requiring fine design. While I am interested in things specifically related to Atlas lathes I'm also interested in designs and principles which can be applied to any machine. Additionally, as I have a 6" lathe the lever collet chuck for 9/10/12" lathes is of little use to me. Furthermore, I don't think the Atlas lever collet chuck is available new from Clausing at this time and, if I'm wrong about that, would be far, far out of my price range, as are the used ones that become available on eBay and through other sources. Many of you make small IC engines, steam engines, clock works, microscopes and telescopes, etc. In many cases these items could be purchased, sometimes at a price less than it costs you to make them yourselves, but still you'd rather make them. Many people think that it's not reasonable to try to make attachments that the lathe manufacturer didn't offer, but keep in mind that the manufacturer's interests are not necessarily the same as yours. If they consider something to not be commercially viable or if they come in conflict with patent considerations they will likely not offer to you what you can then make for yourself without having to concern yourself with either of these issues. To illustrate the commercial viability issue, at one time Atlas offered a Toolroom Taper Attachment which was infinitely superior to the simple version that you commonly see, but it was also much more expensive. I presume they dropped it because they didn't get enough sales to justify retaining it in the catalog. All of the devices that are offered on machine tools were created at some time in the past. It can be fascinating reading about there creation and development. In many cases they were created by tinkeres, not huge corporations with fancy machining facilities. Don't be limited just because you can't go down to the local hardware store and buy these attachments off the shelf. If that's your attitude, why have a machine tool at all, after all, all those corporations know what's good for us and what we ought to be interested in. If they don't offer it we obviously shouldn't want it. << Also chronos.co.uk supply a range of MT3 collets which avoids having to make a collett adaptor. >> Due to the limitations (no through passage) and drawbacks (not self releasing) of Morse Taper collets they don't much interest me. Anthony Berkeley, Calif. ------- NOTE TO FILE: There is an extensive discussion of Sherline and Taig WW and 8mm collets and what they will/will-not fit earlier in this file. ------- Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2004 23:17:01 -0000 From: "jnj1097" Subject: Re: WW Metric Collets Hi Daniel: Yes, Sherline makes a collet adaptor for 8mm collets... You can also use a boring bar to "kiss" the bore on your standard WW collet adaptor and that should work as well. The only thing with either Sherline collet adaptors is that they are for WW collets, and I don't know if the Levin or Boley will fit the taper. Someone help with that? Jeff ------- Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2004 01:32:14 -0000 From: "n2562001" Subject: Re: WW Metric Collets Jeff: The Sherline 8mm collet adaptor will accept Levin and Boley WW collets but not Levin "D" style collets. Jerry Kieffer ------- Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2004 17:14:55 -0000 From: "n2562001" Subject: Re: Levin Collets on a Sherline Lathe Dan, what is the body diameter of your levin collets? Is the Thread .275x40? Jerry Kieffer ------- Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2004 15:37:07 -0500 From: "Statman Designs, LLC" Subject: Re: Re: Levin Collets on a Sherline Lathe All is well now. I just spun the adapter in the lathe and ran some emery cloth through the bore. It just need about 1 thou taken off to open the diameter. Now all the Levin 8mm collets fit in the Sherline adapter. If I put a DTI on the Sherline spindle Morse Taper there is about 1 thou of indicated runout. All of the Levin collets seem to have no measurable runout above the 1 thou of the spindle. I couldn't measure all of them since I do not have round stock in 0.1mm increments, and I do not have 5 hours time to check them all, ;-). But the 5 or 6 I checked were all perfect. Daniel J. Statman, Statman Designs www.statmandesigns.com dan.statmanx~xxrennlist.com ------- Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2004 21:39:06 -0000 From: "n2562001" Subject: Re: Levin Collets on a Sherline Lathe Dan, the reason I asked for the diameter is that I have seen three different body sizes in Levin WW collets. Sherline also makes two different WW adaptors. It sounds like you may have the .314" or .315" body collets. If so the Sherline adaptor part number 11560 will except these collets without modification if you decide to order extra adaptors. Jerry Kieffer ------- Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2004 16:47:44 -0500 From: "Statman Designs, LLC" Subject: Re: Re: Levin Collets on a Sherline Lathe They measure with my caliper (not the most accurate) at about .315", and the Sherline ones that I have measure at about 0.313". If my math is correct then 8/25.4 = .315". Is the difference between the two adapters that Sherline sells listed on their website, because I could not find anything about it. Dan. ------- Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2004 20:32:46 -0500 From: Stan Stocker Subject: Re: Re: toolbits ... vks_generic wrote: > My grinding skills are fairly poor (I ground my first one only a > couple of months ago), my toolbits look ugly, but they do work, > usually not much worse than the brand-new preground ones. Hi Vlad: Butt ugly with the right clearance and rake angles trumps showroom pretty but wrong! :-) Zero rake for brass, 4 to 7 degrees for steel, 12 to 15 degrees for aluminum works well. 5 to 7 degrees of front and side clearance is about right for all materials on smaller lathes. Sort of arbitrary and simplified, but good enough to work in most cases and easy to achieve. You can tune your angles from these starting points when circumstances dictate. > Stan gave a rally good link - I've actually printed it out and kept > in my garage for reference... except for their suggestion to use > water. I've heard people suggest using water to cool toolbits; I've > heard others say NEVER EVER use water to cool HSS, or you'll geet deep > microcracks, just grind it hot - it can handle it. I've used water to > cool down the tiny boring bars I was making, and, while looking good, > they failed. I've ground another one dry, and it's still working fine > boring holes as small as 1/4" in steel. I had completely forgotten the Sherline article still contains the use of a dunk tank! Thanks for bringing this point out. Water is for carbon steel, where if the edge blues you won't have a cutting edge for long. Frequent dunking is a must for simple steels (or else you simply reharden and temper, it's quicker than dunking if there is a lot of material to grind away). Dunking is just flat out wrong for HSS. Flood coolant on the grinder isn't practical for most small home shops. Sweet if you have it, but not real likely. If you hand hold small bits for grinding and dunk frequently, before the bits are uncomfortable to hold, you can get away with the water dunking. You'll also take a long time to accomplish much if you are grinding from a blank! Using the stop when too hot to hold approach to grinding, a 1/2 inch toolbit could take half an hour to get in shape to use. And now the barbarians' way to get HSS blanks roughed into shape: HSS was designed to allow tools to run hard, with the cutting surfaces consistantly above the temperature that would draw the hardness from carbon steel. The tool edges can be at a dull red glow while cutting in a lathe and work just fine. Most home shop machines don't have the power to do this, but it can be done. Hold the blank in vice grips. Hog out the majority of the waste as fast as you can. If the cutter goes blue it doesn't matter with HSS, you have to get it glowing above a dull red before any real changes to the material occur. Let the blank cool down to the point you can touch it. If I have several to do I just drop the hot roughed out cutters on a piece of board. It may smoke a bit, no harm done. Using a piece of wood avoids cooling the cutter too fast. Once the cutter is cool enough to handle, finish grind. When grinding, keep the wheel dressed. A star dresser breaks glaze, and a Norbide dressing stick levels the wheel face. Glazed wheels cut poorly and hot. A grinding wheel that rubs (dull/glazed) is just a friction surface, an open grain surface is a cutting tool. If you remember that detail many grinding problems go away. If you aren't cutting, you're generating heat. If you have the tooling, a diamond point dresser puts a nice finish on a wheel. Used freehand you'll end up with a face that is some shape other than flat and/or chipping the diamond. Read up on diamond point dressing of surface grinding wheels before using one if you insist on freehand work, the angle you present the diamond point to the stone is important. Useful skill to have, you can dress thinner wheels to profiles and grind form tools by plunge grinding. Not a subject to get into very far at this point in the learning curve, but a useful item to have tucked away for future use. Quenching hot HSS does generate cracks. Getting really hot does also, but unlike quench cracks they aren't deep into the material. The surface cracks created during the roughing phase are removed by the final grinding. Finish up by honing the cutter with a hand stone. On small machines the difference between as ground and "sharpened" is quite noticable. Bigger machines still benefit in terms of finish quality, but have the power to cut fast even if the cutting edge is a tad ragged. Try to grind outside or at least as far from your other tools as possible. Grinding grit is nasty stuff in the wrong places. A cheap 1X32 belt sander ($40 or so at one of the chains) can be used to touch up cutters, and is useful for deburring stock. Less messy if hooked up to a shop vac too. Last but not least, put good wheels on a grinder. A nice white or red 46H for roughing and a 60H for finish grinding is a good combination for most steels. > As I said, I am no an expert in grinding, but after experimenting and > getting frustrated with my bits failing, I learned not to use water on > HSS, contrary to what the sherline article suggests. I haven't used it > since. Somebody more knowledgeable is welcome to prove me wrong, of > course. I just wanted to save you some frustration. Other than that, > grinding simple shapes isn't that hard. Vlad You're more of an expert than quite a few folks to have worked this one out :-) Cheers, Stan ------- Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2004 22:07:23 +0000 From: Clive Foster Subject: Re: toolbits ... If you are using square tool steel bits grinding top-rake leads to a major waste of material. It's well worth making up some sort of holder to present the bit sticking up at a suitable "general purpose" top rake angle. This is the same principle as Armstrong and similar bit holders used on larger lathes. I made a couple of two way tool posts for a pal with angled bottoms to the tool holding slots which worked very well but you do need a mill for that approach. Frankly, on a mouse power lathe like the Taig, I suspect a flat base with a hand made wedge screwed and glued in would work. (Advanced bodgers might even like to try a wedge of metal loaded filler supporting a flat steel strip for the tool to clamp onto! Horrible though the concept is, over the years I've come to respect what can be achieved by careful exploitation of good quality metal loaded fillers.) Angling the tool bit reduces the number of sides to be ground and makes it easy to fine adjust the cutting tip height by pulling the tool in and out. Its also well worth taking time to make some angled guides/holders to present the tool bit at a constant angle to the grinding wheel. For best edges you need a smooth, steady traverse across the wheel. This is far more important than the exact angle. Trying to work pure freehand it's far too easy to end up changing the shape and angles slightly at each pass during the sharpening process so you never actually sharpen to a good edge. Most bench-top grinders are rather large for sharpening Taig size tool bits. The UK firm Plasplugs do a multi-purpose sharpening thingy which looks like a good basis for turning into a small tool bit sharpener by adding a suitable tool rest. The 2" diameter cup wheels are of decent quality with both grey, green and white compounds available and the beast works remarkably well despite being mostly plastic. Mouse power motor too which is good from the safety point of view. Fitting a bit in an angled holder and rubbing it up and down a diamond "whetstone" is effective too. Frankly once you have ground the basic shape to match your holders the bit need never see a grindstone again. This is another fixture that needs a mill to make. Basically just a block with a slot to hold the tool cut off at the appropriate angle. Fit the tool bit flush to the end and rub down both bit and block together. Eventually you will need another block! HTH. Clive ------- Date: Wed, 04 Feb 2004 15:45:55 -0000 From: "Bryan Hassing" Subject: When to use burrs Hi: I have noticed many cutting tool vendors offer burr cutters. When should one use a burr instead of an endmill? Thanks. Bryan ------- Date: Wed, 04 Feb 2004 18:33:03 -0000 From: "mc_n_g" Subject: Re: When to use burrs A burr is not a replacement for an end mill. A burr is used to clean up edges after teh milling/drilling/cutting process. Using a burr is a finishing step after everything else is finished. After any cutting operation you are always left with some sort of unwanted edge. You can use a file, sandpaper, burr, Noga style blade deburring tools, grinding/snagging wheels, etc. mc_n_g ------- Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 04:03:37 -0500 From: Stan Stocker Subject: Re: Fly Cutter Sharpening You sharpen fly cutter bits pretty much as you would a left hand lathe tool (one sharpened for cutting towards the tailstock.) You may find that you need to: 1) Increase the tip radius a bit. Having the final surface cut provided by the tip, while the skin of the material is removed by a different area of the cutting edge gives better finish and a longer run between sharpenings. 2) play with the side clearance angle (the side of the tool that faces down to the work) 3) The angle you initially grind the side to (aim for around 5 degrees of clearance from the tip back along the side) 4) A biggie here - you may have to grind the heel of the tool back much more than you do for a lathe tool. If you think about it, a flycutter is basically a boring tool in terms of the cutting edge behavior. If the heel rubs on the step just cut by the tip of tool, you will get a hot tool, poor or no cutting, and/or a lousy finish. Grind the heel back rather than create a really steep clearance angle. A very steep angle will produce a weak tool, as the cutting edge isn't well supported. I grind the heel back at about a 45 degree angle for about 1/2 the tool bit thickness, then grind the surface that would be the front clearance angle on a lathe tool at a more normal 7 degrees or so. If you increase the rake on the tool, it tends to pull the cutter down into the work. Unless you have a very rigid setup you may find that you need to use tools with less rake than you would normally use or take lighter cuts to avoid this problem. Cheers, Stan ------- Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2004 05:37:02 -0000 From: "mikehenryil" Subject: Re: Tool sharpening. --- In Metal_Shapersx~xxyahoogroups.com, "Frank Hasieber" wrote: > Hi all, this is probably not for this group ( so far have not been > able to find a group or other on the subject) but I am looking for > help, I have a Jones & Shipman 310 tool and cutter grinder, but no > specific info on its use, no user manual, etc. just hoping that among > our members someone can point me in the right direction on the proper > use of this machine John Stevenson in the UK has been selling a CD-ROM with manuals for various T&C grinders. He's updated since I got one and added a couple of manuals but the two he had in the original CD were excellent quality. I think he gets around $10-20 for a CD and takes PayPal. Norton also used to sell or give away a nice booklet on tool room grinding. If they no longer supply it, they come up on eBay pretty regularly for $10 or so. Tony Griffith also sells a reprint of a Jones & Shipman manual for $52: http://www.lathes.co.uk/manuals/ Mike ------- Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2004 22:15:40 -0500 From: "Dick Farris" Subject: Re: Tool sharpening. Frank, take a shot at the guys on the " Quorn " group. The Quorn is a shop-made tool grinder made from protietary castings but the guys on the group do know about other grinders on use. Dick ------- Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2004 23:29:19 -0500 From: "Dave Audette" Subject: Re: Tool sharpening. You might find some info at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ToolGrinding/ Dave Audette Worcester, Mass www.broncosaurus.net ------- Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2004 10:48:58 -0500 From: "Jerry Glickstein" Subject: Re: Sharpening lathe tools Just sharpen the top rake(angle) to renew the cutting edge. This maintains the other cutting clearance angles originally ground into the toolbit. Regards, Jerry G (Glickstein) ------- Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2004 14:55:52 -0500 From: Paul Anderson Subject: Re: Sharpening lathe tools Jerry: However, it alters the centre height of the tool. Many smaller machines, such as the sherline, have a toolpost of a fixed height. If the cutting edge is low, it will have to be shimmed back up to centre height, which is a huge pain. The toolposts are designed so that the top of a 1/4" tool will be exactly at centre height. ------- Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2004 16:49:27 -0500 From: "Jerry Glickstein" Subject: Re: Sharpening lathe tools Paul: Au Contraire. I had fifty years of toolroom experience and it is a fact of life. Shims, that is. The whole world is held together with shims. :) I would rather do what I suggested than have to regenerate a new toolbit each time it became dull. The toolposts are a starting point. Go to Tips From Sherline Machinists (Google on over) # 32. My adapter for their compound slide is there. Guess what would be placed under the toolbit when resharpened? Or go to www.shipmodelersdesktop.com Click on Special Tools. Click on page 10. Complete description of the adapter. While you are there, Browse around. Enjoy! Regards, Jerry G (Glickstein) ------- Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2004 18:33:36 -0800 From: "Marcus and Eva" Subject: Re: Sharpening lathe tools Hi All: I just shorten the tool. That way I don't need to shim. When I run short of top relief, I can just regrind the top so I'm just kissing the left hand edge. I never grind this face or the left side face until I've used up most of the side and top relief by successive shortenings of the tool. I've got toolbits that I ground 10 years and more ago, and I still haven't used up all the relief, so I'm still happily shortening the ends whenever they get dull. I typically relieve a half inch or so when I grind a new toolbit the first time. I use good quality American or Swedish High Speed Steel. Look for Koncor, Latrobe, Fagersta and other quality steels. The 2 bucks you save when you buy some of that imported crap will be wasted the first time you try to cut anything even a little bit hard. Works for me!! Oh yeah: I never put back rake on a lathe tool...waste of effort and toolsteel in my opinion, except occasionally on a parting blade. Side rake alone is plenty. Cheers Marcus ------- Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2004 17:17:28 -0500 From: "Jerry Glickstein" Subject: Re: Sharpening lathe tools Paul, I almost forgot. Sherline makes a quick change tool post set which allows anyone to adjust the height of the tool tip in relation to the lathe centerline. Ergo, no shims! Yes, I have it in my Model Shop, on my short and long bed lathes. Regards, Jerry G (Glickstein) ------- Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 16:27:56 -0800 From: "Dave Goodfellow" Subject: RE: Sharpening lathe tools > > Here's a really basic 'newbie' question! How frequently should lathe > > tools be sharpened and what is the best way to do it? Hi Bob: This is sort of like trying to tell someone how to ride a bike. At least it is to me -- others may have rules. But here's my take: Instead of making a "sharpening schedule," react to a symptom. If you're getting chatter, back off on the speed or increase feed. If that doesn't help, sharpen the tool. Or vise-versa. Or, if you're not getting chatter but your cut is rough, sharpen the tool. If you're getting unwanted grooves, probably the tool has too much of a point; round its tip a little or feed more slowly. Others may have different solutions, but these work for me. Dave Goodfellow Lancaster, CA http://www.davegoodfellow.com/ ------- Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 19:19:19 -0500 From: RichD Subject: Re: Sharpening lathe tools Bob: Look at it this way. Start with a sharp tool. I mean really sharp. To be sharp you will have difficulty seeing the edge under good light. Also attempt to drag lightly the edge across the top of your finger nail. It will dig in with little effort. That is sharp. Now, machine some metal, brass, free machining steel, cast iron, etc. See and feel how this works with a SHARP tool. When you have learned this by *your* experience how this works, *you* will know when it is time to sharpen the edge. All the words in all the books will not teach you what it really is like to know when it is time. Work on it. Teach yourself. OK? RichD ------- Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2004 05:15:42 -0000 From: "Larry Goldberg" Subject: Re: Sharpening lathe tools Rich briefly mentioned an important point that's worth expanding upon. The intersection of the top surface and the left and front vertical surfaces is the edge in question. Being light machines taking light cuts, the cutting edge can come to a infinitely thin geometric line. Under a magnifier with good light you should NOT see a bright line along the cutting edge no matter how you tilt it in relation to the light. You can improve the cut by improving the quality of the cutting edge. A very smooth oilstone of the White Arkansas type will remove the larger ridges left by your grinding wheel. The same stone can be used to put the very small radius on the point of intersection of the top, front, and side. You can spend more money on a diamond hone if you like. A few minutes work with the little stone can put a mirror shine on the cuttings edges, approaching what the knife makers call scary sharp. Most importantly, follow the suggestion to try it. Larry ------- NOTE TO FILE: For some great sharpening hints, visit the OldTools site and search their archives for "scary sharp" and "sharp". ------- Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2004 19:54:29 -0000 From: "n2562001" Subject: Re: ww collets >>> Just curious... How small do WW collets go? Also, I've seen a bunch of threads where people have warned that not all WW collets are the same. If, for some oddball reason, I wound up getting a WW headstock and went in quest of WW collets, what should I look for? I'm not there YET, but I'm increasingly doing work on really small round things. I'm guessing I'd be happier with a WW headstock for at least some of this stuff. Tom <<< Tom: The capacity of a standard #1 WW collet is .0039" or .1 mm. A typical WW collet will have a .312" to .3135" body with a .275"x40 thread. Anything other than this will probably not fit a standard WW collet holder. 8mm collets look the same but have a .315" body with a .275"x 40 thread. ( most of the time) The Taig WW Spindle could be bored to except both collets. If you purchase a Taig spindle I would suggest using a close fitting steel draw bar rather than the brass one Taig has supplied in the past. High quality hardened used WW watch collets are getting harder to find at a reasonable price. New Hardened collets can be as much as $100.00 each. New unhardened collets such as Sherline are very serviceable and accurate but will not take the abuse that hardened collets will. But then again they are only a fraction of the cost. Jerry Kieffer ------- Date: Mon, 3 May 2004 10:05:07 -0400 From: "Curtis Martin" Subject: Cheap Homemade HS Drawbar for 2MT Collets Just uploaded the picture of my first "home-made" tool for my Atlas 10100 lathe to the group photos folder. [atlas_craftsman group] Scrounging around the local scrap/junk dealer netted a set of six Royal 2MT Collets (Sizes 3/16" through 1/2") and a handwheel (off an unknow piece of machinery). Six bucks total (buck a piece for the collets and the handwheel was a freebie ;-) Took a length of steel rod, threaded the end of it 3/8"-16, cut it to length and pinned on the handwheel. The steel bushing is a piece of scrap, turned on the lathe to make the 45 degree cones so the handwheel end of the drawbar will center itself on the spindle. Not bad for a under $10 project if I do say so myself ;-) Curt Martin Ormond Beach, Florida http://www.clmartin.dyndns.org ------- Date: Sat, 5 Jun 2004 19:37:49 +0100 From: "Leon Heller" Subject: Re: Removing built-up aluminum from endmill? > How does one (or can one?!?) go about removing the aluminum that > gets 'welded' onto the flutes of an endmill when you overfeed it in > soft aluminum? I've done this on my lathe before and have always > been able to get it off of the cutter, but the flutes of the 3/32" > endmill that I overfed aren't quite as easy to get scraped off... <:-) Caustic soda solution will dissolve the aluminium but won't affect the steel. Leon ------- Date: Sat, 5 Jun 2004 21:08:22 +0100 From: "Leon Heller" Subject: Re: Digest Number 1456 > 'caustic soda'=lye? lurch Yes, same stuff. Leon ------- Date: Sun, 06 Jun 2004 03:26:08 -0400 From: Ken Jenkins Subject: Re: Aluminum build up; it's a common problem >> Ok, I'm guessing this is beginner's mistake, oh, about #20 or so... :- Don't feel bad ... everybody fights it. It greatly depends on the kind of aluminum you are using. Of course I mainly use whatever comes to hand (i.e. CHEAP) so I've had the samw problem as you have. Usually (as you mentioned) you can take a sharp scribe, dig it into the build up at the top and push toward the bottom of the end mill and it'll often come free in a piece (repeat for each flute). I have even given the scribe a light rap with a hammer (not recommended! unless you insure the force goes straight down toward the end of the cutter, you can easily chip your end mill (hard = brittle) ... but I've gotten away with it a few times. Varying your speeds and feeds can help, if you go too fast it tends to worsen the problem. I find this especially to be true when drilling. > Better to use some sort of coolant on aluminium otherwise build up is > almost impossible to stop. The best solution (as was mentioned by another member) is some type of lubrication ... coolant, or even a few sprits of WD40 or Kerosene (oddly enough) works. > Caustic soda solution will dissolve the aluminium but won't affect the > steel. Caustic soda definitely works ... but it is kinda nasty stuff. We used to use it to clean nickel embossing shims. You don't want to get any on you ... even diluted it burns like the devil. I wore very thick elbow length rubber gloves when I used to work with it, but managed to lean on a puddle with an unprotected my arm once ... just once .. that was enough! You might try soaking the cutter in some acetone (like overnight) and then try to pry it out with a scribe after that. It's a common problem. ------- Date: Sun, 04 Jul 2004 00:36:33 -0000 From: "n2562001" Subject: Re: Collet Precision - CNC Mill [taigtools group] > Just received my new CNC mill last week, have it all setup for > backlash, etc and been "playing" around making some of my first > jewellery wax models. Love the machine but have one qualm. > Considering this is a precision machine, I was suprised at the > quality of the collets (the machining is extremely rough). I am > using fairly small ball nose mills with cutting diameters of 1/32" > and 1/16" and will probably use some as small as 1/64". > I have found that I am getting a runout of anywhere from 0.005" to > 0.007", if I use a 0.015" dia cutter -that's 50% of the diameter! > According to TAIG, they have never had any problems with this. > Are there any other suppliers of 1/8" and 3/16" collets to fit this > machine that are precision machined? Richard, having worked with very small end mills on a regular basis for the past ten years or so, maybe I can make a suggestion. In defense of Taig, It is my opinion that it is not practical to manufacture collets for $3.90 that will have the consistent accuracy needed for .015" endmills. I do not agree with their manufacturing philosophy but thats another story. No one else that I know of manufactures Taig collets. I had a number of problems with small end mills down to .005" until I went to WW collets. You could switch over to a Taig WW spindle. However I would not suggest holding end mills larger than 1/16" in WW collets even though I do it all of the time. From time to time I have had larger end mills slip under heavy load. If you make the change I would also suggest you fit to a steel draw bar, (.275"x40Tpi) If Taig is still suppling the brass one. The draw bar needs to be tight to properly hold the end mills. This will cause the brass threads to wear and they will eventually bind over the top of the collet thread. The first WW draw bar I machined was brass and caused untold grief when the whole assembly friction fitted its self together while closing the collet. Steel drawbars and WW collets are available from Sherline or most watch supply house`s. High qaulity used WW collets and draw bars are still available but getting harder to find. The Sherline draw bar will require minor machining and a bushing to fit properly. Larger end mills could and should be held in a end mill holder that threads to the spindle. Good Luck Jerry Kieffer ------- Date: Sun, 04 Jul 2004 08:47:35 +0100 From: Tony Jeffree Subject: Re: Re: Collet Precision - CNC Mill Another alternative, which I believe is soon to be offered by Taig but which can be done on a DIY basis fairly easily, is to replace the Taig spindle with one that takes ER16 collets. It is possible to buy ER16 collet chucks with parallel shanks long enough to do the job - the shank is generally 16mm diam, so it is necessary either to machine a couple of bushes to fit them to the 17mm ID bearings that Taig use, or to replace the bearings with 16mm ID/40mm OD bearings which are obtainable. I have the bits to do this lying on my bench right now, but haven't as yet obtained the necessary supply of round tuits to complete the job. The obvious advantages are that ER16 collets are reasonably priced, accurate, and are available from a wide variety of sources. They also have a wide gripping range, so a complete metric or imperial set should give full coverage (i.e., you don't have to have both the metric set and the imperial set). Regards, Tony ------- Date: Sun, 04 Jul 2004 14:09:27 -0000 From: "n2562001" Subject: Re: Collet Precision - CNC Mill Tony, I have the option of using ER collets on my mill but do not use them for a couple of reasons. first the physical size of the closer nut makes it very difficult to see and position the small short end mills. When you can`t see what you are doing these tiny expensive mills can easily be history before you get started. Second the cost of qauality ER collets with the consistent accuracy needed for tiny end mills are almost twice the cost of WW collets. The speed at which the collets can changed when using small tooling for some operations may also be a consideration. For this the WW system is much faster. For larger tooling the ER system is far superior to the WW system. Jerry Kieffer ------- Date: Sun, 04 Jul 2004 22:15:02 -0000 From: "n2562001" Subject: Re: Collet Precision - CNC Mill Steve, when you have a .015" end mill that has a .025" long flute, it will work best if the cutting area of the mill is held as close to the collet nose as possible. If you extend the mill out as far as the 1/8" or less shank will allow (about one inch) you will start to increase runout and lower the stability needed to prevent breakage. I have had my best luck with small mills (.030" or so and under)) when the tip is only about .100" to .150" from the nose of the collet. A WW collet nose is only about .400" in dia. and covers far more than I would like it to for a clear view of the mill. This is only my experience. I sure don`t have a problem with what ever works for anyone else. In regard to collet pricing. Qaulity for qaulity I have always had to pay almost twice as much for ER collets as WW collets. Of course I can buy cheap collets but I found the higher priced Quality collets to be a far better value for the dollar. They do the job correctly the first time and every time. I should back up and say I have bought a fair amount of cheap crap from China. I keep it around for people who like to borrow things. They always bring it back and never ask to borrow it again. Jerry Kieffer ------- Date: Sat, 3 Jul 2004 07:11:22 -1000 (HST) From: benedictx~xxhawaii.rr.com Subject: Re: Re: Collet Precision - CNC Mill Jerry, I'm curious. You said you use WW collets for holding tiny end mills, but that you don't reccommend it. Given all the choices available, what would be the best way to hold tiny end mills? Right now 1/32" is the smallest I use, but at some point I can see winding up using tinier tooling. Tom ------- Date: Sun, 04 Jul 2004 23:21:33 -0000 From: "n2562001" Subject: Re: Collet Precision - CNC Mill Tom, I think I mentioned that I recommended using WW collets for small or tiny end mills but no larger than 1/16". What I meant was a cutter diameter of no larger than 1/16". A 1/16" or 1/32" mill will generally have a 3/16" shank and can be held with a 3/16" or no.48 WW collet. I generally use 1/8" to 3/16" end mills held by WW collets but would not recommend it under heavy loads. I have had them slip from time to time. For small mills I like either ER or Mt (Morris-taper) collets for larger tooling. I know a lot of people like end mill holders, but for small mills I am uncomfortable with the end of the mill (1/4"- 3/8") extended as far from the spindle nose as they are with most holders. End mills are far more stable and give a cleaner more accurate cut when located as close to the spindle nose as possible. My opinion of course. Jerry Kieffer ------- Date: Sun, 4 Jul 2004 22:09:07 -0500 From: "jwalters" Subject: Re: Re: Collet Precision - CNC Mill For anyone interested in using the best ER style collets and chucks made, check out the Rego-Fix.com web site. I understand this is the Swiss company that developed the ER style collet. They sell collets as small as ER8 that have an open size of 1mm that will clamp down to smaller than anyone should ever need. An option for a high precision spindle is to adapt an ER collet to Taig, check out their standard straight shank collet chucks and carefully adapt it to fit the Taig spindle bearings. The quality of the collet nut greatly influences the precision of any collet. Rego-Fix make the best collets, collet chucks and collet nuts I have ever used. Check out their web site, the information is there, keep clicking on page extensions until you find the ER collet section. I hope this helps. John Walters ------- Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2004 08:54:04 -0700 From: "Marcus and Eva" Subject: Re: Fw: Newbie: ? about chucks [subject veered to collets] > >Todd, Just in case you don't know what TIR is. > >"Total Indicator Reading" when checking concentricity. > >Another way, Take a larger piece of stock, predrill some holes for > >setscrews along its length, chuck it up. > >Drill and carefully bore it out for a SFNS* to your work. > >Now slip your work in and tighten up the setscrews and complete your > >piece. I would recommend no mar nylon front setscrews. > >*"Slip Fit, No Shake" Regards, Jerry G (Glickstein) I have been following this [sherline group] thread for a bit, and one thing I haven't seen mentioned yet, is the option of making your own collet chuck AND MAKING THE COLLETS TOO!!! The problem with aftermarket collets on a tiny machine like the Sherline is that they're all the wrong shape for snugging up close to the front spindle bearing, and they're expensive too. Take the 5C option offered a ways back ...the collets are almost 3" long from the bum end to the business end. That's going to make any attempt to run such a collet in a small lathe, suffer greatly from loss of rigidity due to the huge overhang. Of the aftermarket collets out there, the shortest are probably the ER series, but they are spring collets, which means that they need to have a substantial portion of their length supported by the stock...you can't grip a skinny washer in them. Making collet chucks and collets is dirt simple; and I'm talking about dead accurate ones too. There's no need whatsoever for them to be hardened... I've gotten excellent service for long periods out of collets custom made from brass and aircraft aluminum. The secret to success with a collet, is to plan the turning of it so you can make the whole job without re-chucking the collet at any time. The 5C pattern is a good one for making thin parts, since the body of the collet does not collapse like a spring collet does, so you can machine a step in the collet bore and grab your skinny part. The collet body taper is almost irrelevant, and even the quality of the taper matching between collet and body is not so important...it will mismatch when the collet is contracted anyway. What does matter is the concentricity of everything, and the match of collet bore to body of stock that's going to be run in it. My preferred pattern is a very short straight body, a 15 to 30 degree nose taper, and a straight front step of about 0.050". My collet nut has a matching step( but with plenty of clearance so the nut can't pull the collet sideways). The step allows the front face of the collet to be flush with the front face of the nut. I like a nut rather than a drawbar because a nut allows me to fit a bigger collet into a small spindle bore. I cut the slots in the collet to within 0.050" or so to the back end of the collet, so the fingers can flex without much strain, and I plan my collet bore to be within 0.001" of my stock diameter. I also make the straight portion of the collet a snug push fit in the body of the chuck. It's all straightforward turning and milling...the key to success is to work accurately, and that means single point threading, boring to size (rather than reaming) and a bit of planning to allow the job to be completed in one chucking. None of it is hard...you just can't attack it with a club!! Cheers Marcus ------- Date: 9 Jul 2004 03:54:23 -0000 From: sherline Subject: New file uploaded to sherline This email message is a notification to let you know that a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the sherline group. File : /collet.jpg Uploaded by : implmex Description : homemade collets You can access this file at the URL http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sherline/files/collet.jpg ------- Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2004 21:41:43 -0700 From: "Dave Hylands" Subject: RE: Fw: Newbie: ? about chucks Hi Marcus, so a few questions now that I've seen the picture. Here are the points I'd like to confirm: 1 - the outer diameter of the straight portion matches up with the inner diameter of the spindle 2 - the outer diameter of the cone would be a titch smaller than the minor diameter of the 3/4-16 threads on the spindle. 3 - the outer diameter of the step on the face would be a bit bigger than the inner diameter of the spindle. Thanks Dave Hylands Vancouver, BC, Canada http://www.DaveHylands.com/ ------- Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 08:12:02 -0700 From: "Marcus and Eva" Subject: Re: Fw: Newbie: ? about chucks Hi Dave: This collet can be made any size. If you make a screw-on collet chuck body, you could make it huge if you wanted to or needed to. If you wanted to butcher your spindle and machine the collet recess directly in the spindle nose, (like the Hardinge machines are set up) you could do that too. If you wanted to have a Morse taper adapter and a tiny collet you could do that too. (exactly like the WW pattern collets that you can buy from Sherline, but without the size restriction created by the drawbar.) The whole point is that you can get much closer to ideal spindle rigidity simply by making the collets to a pattern that takes up less length. What you need to accept, is that you have less latitude for mismatch between stock diameter and collet bore diameter when the collet is 5C style but short bodied. An examination of where the collet has to flex in order to collapse tells you immediately why this is so. Cheers Marcus ------- Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 09:00:46 -0700 From: "Marcus and Eva" Subject: Re: Tiny cutters Anyway, in answer to your questions, all the cutters I grind are form relieved, but I grind incremental steps on them rather than the continuous form relief you can get from CNC or cam operated grinders. So my protocol for the double cove cutter, for example, is that I dress the profile on the wheel (I'm particularly lucky in that I managed to score both a Diaform and an Optidress wheeldresser for ridiculously little money on EBay). I then split the blank to create the flutes, and spin grind the blank to get the profile. At this point there's no relief yet. I then drop the grinding wheel a bit (usually about 0.002" for a 1/4" diameter cutter) and mark the edge that will become the cutting edge with red felt pen. I rotate the blank 'til I'm well past top dead center with the edge I want to relieve, and then take a lick across the profile. I can see exactly how much I'll need to rotate the blank back toward TDC, to bring the relief right up to the cutting edge...so I sneak up on it with tiny rotational adjustments until the red just disappears from the edge. I then drop the wheel another 0.005" and relieve again, this time staying about 0.020" from the edge. This round of relieving goes all the way around the blank except for the edges. So the cutter ends up having a primary radial relief of about 7 degrees and a secondary radial relief of about 12 degrees. I adjust the depths of the relief cuts depending on the diameter of the cutter (big cutters need more to end up with similar relief angles). The threadmill is another interesting tool to visualize in operation. I think of it as a two toothed Skilsaw. Both cutting edges need to be aligned, so the only way to accommodate steep thread helices, is to tip the entire milling spindle relative to the lathe axis, much like a spiral milling setup is run on a horizontal universal mill. I had that provision on my 12 x 36 Chinese lathe, but I found I never needed it for typical thread pitches, so when I transferred the rig to the Sherline, I didn't bother to put it in, and I haven't missed it. The cutter itself is form relieved in the same way that I described above. You may have noticed that I almost always make multiflute cutters...this is because they're stronger, not because they cut all that much more efficiently than a D bit. For those of you who may be reading this thread and haven't heard of a D bit, it's a milling cutter that's made by splitting part of a cylindrical blank of toolsteel so only one half remains (D shaped in cross section) and then grinding a single cutting edge on it. D bits are very popular for engraving. Surprisingly, they're also much quicker to make, and the reason is that splitting a HSS or carbide blank to D bit specifications requires the removal of lots of material, and both materials are slow to grind. A two flute needs far less material removed to create the flutes, so it's both quicker and stronger. Relieving the second side is duck soup once the setup is there, and I had to make it for the first flute anyways!! A bonus is that they balance well, and at 34,000 RPM that's worth having. Hope this was of interest Cheers Marcus ------- Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2004 04:31:44 -0000 From: "art_fish2004" Subject: Sharpening Carbide Cutters I am doing clock repair and some of the pivots are too hard to cut with HSS cutters on my Sherline lathe. I've purchased some carbide cutters, but find they need sharpening or at least touched up before they will cut properly. BTW, I'm new to lathe work other than jewelers lathe, and just joined the group tonight. I'm sure this has been visited before, but search of archives did not give anything. Is there an inexpensive way to sharpen carbide bits...like a grinding wheel or sanding disk/belt of some type that will work. $300 for a diamond wheel is more than I can afford at this time. Thanks much Art Fish ------- Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2004 08:36:22 -0400 From: "Jerry G" Subject: Re: Sharpening Carbide Cutters Welcome Art! There are grinding wheels available. They will not give you the results that diamond wheels do, but they are useable on carbide toolbits. Silicon Carbide grit is the answer. Although the color is not a definitive, green or black is common. The selection of grinding wheels is a science in itself. Try Google. Put in Norton (a top name in grinding wheels) Or Bay State Go for 60-80 grit Hardness H or I or J Try a good industrial supplier. If not near you, go to MSC direct online and search. (I am not commercially connected. Just a satisfied customer.) Regards, Jerry G (Glickstein) ------- Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2004 14:00:29 -0000 From: "n2562001" Subject: Re: Sharpening Carbide Cutters Art, some pivots will need to be annealed before you will be able to cut them properly. Set the pivot on a piece of copper and heat both at the same time until the pivot is red hot and let them both cool. Other hard pivots can be cut without a problem using carbide. The better qaulity brazed carbide tools such as C5 or C6 Valenite, micro- 100 etc. will not require any sharpening or touch up. Use a standard AR for a slightly rounded corner and a threading tool for a sharp square corner. Jerry Kieffer ------- Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2004 16:00:57 -0000 From: "n2562001" Subject: Re: Sharpening Carbide Cutters >> Jerry, What is Art to do when the carbide chips? You know that is common and very likely with a novice user. Especially with a threading tool whose included angle is usually 60 degrees. Regards, Jerry G (Glickstein) P.S. I have used all the grades (types) you mention and they do not last forever.... :) << Jerry, I completely agree with your response for sharpening carbide. I should have mentioned that they would not require sharpening or touch up for initial use. Thanks for pointing out my mistake. However sharpening carbide in a way that minimizes chipping and cuts properly is an art in itself. At least it was an uphill battle for me when I started. I resolved the problem by purchasing the proper grinding equipment and spending the time learning to use it. It cost more than Art wants to spend. Of course you and I can walk over to any old grinder today and grind a tool free hand as well as find a way to make it work as we want. When I started I was unable to grind a tool freehand that would perform as well as a good quality carbide tool from the factory. When cutting clock pivots you only have one shot at it and in most cases and you will need to have a good finish to retain as much metal as possible. You are also in some cases working with very old valuable pinion arbors that will affect the value of the clock if damaged. Personally when I started I would have been better off working with proper quality tools and replacing them when damaged for this type of work. Of course for non-valuable replaceable items you re-sharpen everything in sight any way you can with whatever you have. Jerry Kieffer ------- Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2004 09:14:43 -0700 From: "Marcus and Eva" Subject: Re: Sharpening Carbide Cutters Hi Jerry and others: I have to disagree with the notion that you can get even reasonable performance, finish grinding carbide cutting tools with a silicon carbide wheel. I know you can snag off some material with a "green wheel", but you'll never produce anything better than the coarsest geometry, and you likely won't be cutting long at all with such a rough tool in hardened steel. Fortunately, there are better alternatives available from the worlds of dentistry and dental laboratory technology. You can buy diamond wheels and points in a wide range of coarseness and fineness for prices in the $15 to $20.00 range. These are small diameter tools suitable for a Foredom or Dremel, and are very nice for fine finishing. They are not suitable for hogging, but in combination with the dreaded green wheel, you can do a lot with them, and make very acceptable cutting tools. Go to your family dentist with a box of doughnuts, and you probably can score a whole pile of used points. They typically get dull on the very tips when used for crown and bridge preparation, and the dentist tosses them when they're no longer suitable for dentistry. I've still got hundreds left over from my clinical years, and I've ground a lot of carbide with them. As the Brits say "they work a treat". Dental labs use larger points and wheels for shaping and finishing porcelain...a common supplier of these is a company called Brasseler..look them up on the web. The ideal solution of course, is to have a full set of industrial diamond wheels in varying grades, but as you point out, it's pretty expensive to get such a set or even one (although I've bought plenty for less than $150.00 CDN). In their defence though, they do last a long time...I've got wheels that have seen almost daily use and are 20 + years old. The dentist's points by contrast will live for a few cutters at most... that's why it's so worthwhile to be on good terms with your local dentist!! If you play your cards right...(occasional invitations to lunch for the staff is a good way) you can probably persuade him and his asssistants to run his worn out burs through the sterilizer and drop them in a box for you so you have a steady supply. It's no hardship for them, and a great source of useful stuff for you. Get the carbide burs too..they're really nice to have too...and if you can persuade him to rummage through his office drawers, you might be able to score an old high speed handpiece too. If you do, grab it without delay...this is worth several lunches at least!! Cheers Marcus ------- Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2004 12:34:03 -0400 From: "Jerry G" Subject: Re: Sharpening Carbide Cutters Marcus, I agree with your disagreement! It was never my intention to intimate "finish" grinding with the "green wheel" or the "black one", for that matter. Art needed a less expensive way to grind carbide toolbits. As we know, Diamond is the way to go. Your suggestion and solution is excellent. I haven't used the doughnuts or lunch bit, but I do have a nice collection of dental picks, carbide drills he has given me over the years.....However, I did do some simple repair work on his equipment! I was spoiled, having worked in a toolroom with a battery of diamond double sided carbide grinding machines. A copious supply of coolant and the best of adjustable tool rests to set any angle and just go from one side of the machine (coarse wheel) to the other side (fine wheel). And, for really fine finishing a hand lap to get those mirror finishes and mini radii that are a requisite to prevent premature failure of the cutting edge(s). Regards, Jerry G (Glickstein) ------- Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2004 05:31:39 -0700 From: Mark Subject: More on diamond wheels etc. I've bought a nice selection of things on ebay, where wheels of several types go for 20-30.00 (haven't looked for a year or so). Also, one maker of disk laps for gem faceting, Daniel Lopaki (check my spelling) sells for excellent prices. As Marcus points out, carbide toolbits need finish grinding. The Chinese packs of 1-inch diamond disks area fine for roughing but too coarse to make a good finish. But I like them a LOT better than the small wheel / diamond paste that comes in the Waller brand carbide graver kits, for the watchmaker's lathe, at least for roughing chipped gravers. Another place to look MIGHT be a gem shop - laps that are too worn for gem faceting could be the ticket for toolbit finishing.... mark ------- Date: Mon, 20 Dec 2004 02:20:21 -0000 From: "c.j. Dominey" Subject: Re: Digest Number 114 [BeginnersWorkshop group] Hi fellows, I am currently a machinist, and have used both non-rotating and rotating centers in the tailstock. The non-rotating centers used a center drilled 60 degree hole just like the live centers did. I expect the reason for using them was that the "dead center" was more economical, and gave much more tool clearance than the live centers did. It is a practice I have not used or seen in many years. We used to use something called "white lead" to grease the dead center...although what that was I do not know. I was helping in the machine shop when I was 8 years old. Later we used melidium grease to grease the dead center. I never did get the concentricity I wanted with a dead center and much prefer the ball bearing kind. The center that went in the chuck side used a lathe dog to turn the workpiece. I have only done that a couple of times, typically to grind a shaft to close tolerance. If you need to machine a hardened piece...like a heat treated live center, another option other than grinding is hard turning. They make really neat inserts today that will turn very hard material in the lathe. If anyone has any interest in these I will get you details. I have used them, and they do work! Jim ------- Date: Tue, 21 Dec 2004 17:56:15 -0800 (PST) From: Carol Dominey Subject: RE: Re: Digest Number 114 What you need to do hard turning is a lathe with excellent rigidity, and good tight spindle bearings. You also need a pretty high rpm rate...think in the 600 fps area...but most engine lathes won't get there so probably as high an rpm as you can turn. Depth of cut is usually low...perhaps .003 to .005. You will have to experiment to get the best results. Cubic Boron Nitride inserts are about four or five times the cost of a regular carbide insert. But they do offer the cabability to machine VERY hard steel. Up to around 62 Rockwell on the C scale as an example. I successfully machined a hardened tap on a Hardinge chucker lathe, and it amazed me. I had no idea you could do that. A pretty good source for hard turning inserts...and in my opinion all inserts is Iscar. They are more expensive than many other insert companies ...but you get much longer tool life with Iscar than you do with some others. All insert tool companies today make CBN inserts, and other inserts for very hard material as well. Give it a try, you might surprise yourself. Just remember....no coolant ...CBN inserts hate temperature shock, vibration and also SOFT material. Good luck, Sir Jim ------- Date: Tue, 21 Dec 2004 20:08:07 -0800 From: "keith green" Subject: Re: Re: Digest Number 114 At work we hard-turn case-hardened materials and induction-hardened stuff (each between 55 and 62 Rc) with ceramic inserts. They're a lot cheaper than the CBN inserts (haven't used those yet) and seem to give a good result in the 360 FPM range (average). Less than .01 depth of cut, no coolant. You need a rigid machine, no doubt about it. I think the inserts run about $36 Can. for the whisker-reinforced ones (Sandvik) and quite a bit less for the non-reinforced ones. Reinforced kind can take an interrupted cut to some degree without chipping. The inserts themselves are very plain with no chipbreaker. They may have a small 45 deg. bevel on the cutting edge; say about .005 to .010. We use them in holders with 5 to 10 deg. negative rake. Keith ------- Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 11:16:03 -0800 From: "Robert A. Washburn" Subject: Re: Quorn tool grinder [Prints_and_Plans group] When I acquired the book from Prof. Chaddock [The Quorn, Universal Tool & Cutter Grinder] I asked him if I needed the drawings also to build the Quorn. He said, the book can accomplish this. In reviewing it, it can! But, with the low cost of cutters these days, I never became interested in building the Quorn. You can get, from MSC, 20 end mills (2 and 4 flute) for US$49.95 in a nice wooden, hinged lid box. I bought six sets of them. You can't even get a cutter sharpened for US$2.50 each. I find these cutters to be comparable to all others I have used. I did find one (in using the contents of two boxes of them) which had been finished all except, it somehow missed being heat-treated. I threw it away. Frances and I visited (the lates) Lou & Pat Blackmore in Australia back in 1995. In his shop he showed me his Quorn. He said, "The bloody thing is too complicated to use. I don't use it." That was another determent to my taking up the task. Robert Washburn ------- Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 15:23:21 +0000 From: Clive Foster Subject: Re: Digest Number 327 * Subject should be: Re: Quorn tool grinder [Prints_and_Plans group] With respect "The bloody thing is too complicated to use." describes any general purpose Tool & Cutter Grinder with comprehensive capabilities especially if you don't take the time to learn how to use it and to make setting / alignment jigs appropriate to the purposes to which you intend to put it. Although the Quorn basically follows the Deckel / Alexander concept it includes both grinding head tilt and rise / fall movements extending its capabilities at the cost of extra complication and degrees of freedom. The basic Deckel / Alexander concept is intended for engraving cutters although it is exceedingly effective for simple tool bits & end tooth refurbishment. It's not so good for end-mill side teeth, tap fluting, reamers and similar jobs where the rise & fall or pivoting head machines e.g. Clarkson are better. Like all sophisticated machines the Quorn is capable of refurbishing seriously damaged cutters and even producing them from scratch when provided with a suitable blank. Its unfortunate that Prof Chaddock did not describe a comprehensive range of setting aids but a full set would probably have doubled the size of the book. A short scrutiny of the instruction manual of any good commercial comprehensive T&C Grinder will reveal a significant range of factory made tool holders and setting aids along with brief details of things which the user ought to make for themselves. Reference to a good textbook on tool grinding and the use of T&C Grinders will reveal a bewildering range of useful(?) devices. The use of T&C Grinders for anything beyond the most routine tasks is a highly skilled art. Good though the Quorn is it is, in some ways, unfortunate that its reputation has spread immoderately because it really is for advanced workers only. Making a nice job of building one is evidence of a respectable level of skill. Needing to exploit its full capabilities proves you really are advanced! For most of us being able to touch up the end teeth on milling cutters, sharpen drills (preferably both conical and four facet points ) and repeatably replicate the cutting angles on lathe tools will suffice. For these purposes simple single or double angle solid block and collet holders presented in a controllable fashion to a decent grinding wheel will do an adequate job. Adding a floating spindle to do end-mill side flutes probably sets the limits of "I'll do it one day" aspirations. It really is a pity that there are no designs for a comprehensive cutter block & collet holder system to be used with a small high speed grinder. Most published designs are single purpose ad-hoc devices and there are still numerous advocates of the abominable multi adjustable tool rest "and cardboard angle setting gauges". For about the last 15 years I've been threatening to sort out a simple system based on a sliding head carrying a multiple hinged tool carrier holder using V gaps and inserted pins to sort the angles. The BoE sketches were done ages ago but... Clive ------- Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 19:17:58 +0000 (GMT) From: Paul Midgley Subject: Tool grinders [Prints_and_Plans group] Having read the thoughts of people in the group and looked through the book, I am inclined to agree that it is a bit to complicated to use and a more simpler tool grinder would be better, hence the change in subject title. If anyone has any suggestions it would be appreciated, preferably freely available designs. I know milling cutters are quite cheap to buy these days, but if it goes blunt ant it is the only one you have of that size, then it is frustrating to have to wait until you can get a new one. It is also a waste when all the tool would need is a quick touch up on the grinder. Those of us who reside in the UK tend to be a bit more thrifty and do not like to throw anything away. Regards Paul ------- Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 23:13:43 +0200 From: "Frank Hasieber" Subject: RE: Tool grinders Hi Paul, no matter where you live we all have to be thrifty, resharpening your own cutters as a hobbyist is a proposition, unless your time is too valuable, there are a couple of other popular grinders available in kit form in the UK and possibly the drawings/plans are available, the Kennet is one, but brain fade keeps the others at bay, I will check through my Model Engineer mags and see what I can come up with, just may take a bit of time. Frank Durban, South Africa. PS: I have frequently in the past touched up an end mill/slot drill freehand on the grinder with perfectly acceptable results, if you end up with one cutting lip slightly longer than the others, you have in effect a single point flycutter, I have sometimes got a better finish than I got with the new cutter! ------- Date: Tue, 01 Feb 2005 21:59:52 -0900 From: "Ward M." Subject: RE: Re: Tool grinders > There is the Public Domain "Bonelle" (previously "Millenium") tool grinder > on one of the Yahoo metalworking groups. Greg Try http://groups.yahoo.com/group/quorn_owners/ for the Bonelle plans. Ward M. ------- Date: Wed, 09 Feb 2005 08:37:32 -0000 From: "Bernard R" Subject: Re: Quorn tool grinder [Prints_and_Plans group] I'm new to the group, however as I'm in the process of building a Quorn I can give you some first hand comments. In regard to the question of whether it is worth while building, a lot depends on which side of the pond you live and what equipment you have. While the general run of imported end mills are cheap in the US, screwed end mills as fit in a Clarkson chuck are not. A good source of Brit workshop books and magazines is available in the US from WiseOwlMagazines.com. The quality of the printing is not sufficient to build a Quorn and there are some errors. The UK agent for the Quorn is Model Engineering Services and they sell sets of plans for both the Mk1 & Mk2, as well as castings and wheels. In the US Gary Martin sells reasonable quality castings, but no plans or grinding wheels. Expanding on the Quorn is the Bonnelle, plans and notes are in the Yahoo Quorn_Users Group, this uses no castings, instead using continuosly cast 50mm iron bar. Don Willis who designed it has posted 3 files in the group, but there is litle in the way of construcional write up and you need to be pretty experienced to build it. Guy Lautard, Lautard.com, sells plans for the Tinker grinding jig which uses your existing bench grinder, he also sells the two castings, the remainder is common stock. Bernard R ------- Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2005 23:29:33 +0000 From: Clive Foster Subject: Re: Quorn tool grinder Further to Bernard's most apposite comments it occurs to me that one of the major sources of difficulty associated with designs for self build T & C grinders is the multi-adjustable tool holder with its associated collets and graduated setting circles. Although obviously essential for full spectrum use the slavish copying of these features of commercial machines is not essential for the kind of use most HSM types will undertake. If you only wish to sharpen drills, lathe tools and the end teeth of end- mills something far simpler offering a few pre-set angles will be more than adequate. If you have height adjustment on the wheel head simple V-block mounting of end-mills is adequate providing you pay appropriate attention to tooth indexing. The basic tool-holding principles required are essentially the same as used in numerous published designs for simple tool-holding jigs for use with bench grinders. The Achilles heel of such devices has always been the difficulty of arranging a well controlled feed and presentation to the grinding wheel when using a conventional grinder. Using with a T&C grinder answers this problem. When I build mine I shall use square section blocks, drilled to match the shank diameters, to hold my end-mills. I shall set the angles using either interchangeable ramped platforms or hinged platforms with a range of different sized rods sliding between V grooves or into location holes to set the angles. Simple V blocks will do for the drills and L blocks, with clamps for the tool bits. The bit I have yet to figure out is how to put a controlled, repeatable small radius on the end of lathe tools. Clive ------- Date: Wed, 09 Feb 2005 18:20:02 -0800 From: Sacramento Charlie Subject: Re: Re: Quorn tool grinder Clive, I made the Tinker from Canada but modified it to use R8's. Now I can do drill bits, end-mills or anything that needs a multiple angle. It works just fine. On the other side of the grinder I have a Darex and in a plastic case I have a Drill Doctor. So I'll never ever buy another drill bit. Sacramento Charlie (the other Foster) ------- Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 04:16:53 -0000 From: "Bernard R" Subject: Re: Quorn tool grinder As an interim step to building the Quorn I made the Tinker. It's an inter- esting little jig and in its published form uses 2MT taper for the various tool holders, the circular holders are plain drilled and reamed. There is also a little rotary table, using the same 2MT format, there is also an accessory for radius grinding. While the drawings do call for graduated dials, which I did using my CNC rotary table, in the majority of cases there are only a few critical common angles we need be concerned with and it is easy enough to centre pop those, in fact, as the design uses as upright standard and the work head swivels on that the angles can be set with a protractor. For my own part the rotary table gets the most use for doing lathe tools, very handy for accuratly making threading bits. The short threaded 'micromoter' screw and the relatively long work arm means inevitably there is in the jig, which in my opinion excludes it for serious T&C grinding, but it is a very definite improvement over freehand and a reasonable alternative to machines such as the Worden. Bernard R ------- Date: Sat, 05 Feb 2005 20:42:31 -0000 From: "hotchicken12000" Subject: Has anyone bought and machined the soft jaws>>>> [sherline group] Hi everyone: I am a Sherline 4100 owner and a goldsmith, I often need to hold a piece in the lathe after it has been parted off. Picture a wedding band that needs to be held from the inside. I have stuggled with different ways of doing this because Sherline doesn't offer an internally expanding collet. A friend suggested that I buy some machinable jaws for the lathe and then shape them to match the diameters that I need. Does anyone have any experience in doing this? Any information would be appreciated. Thanks again. Cary James St.John's, Newfoundland ------- Date: Sat, 05 Feb 2005 17:58:04 -0800 From: Alan Marconett Subject: Re: Has anyone bought and machined the soft jaws>>>> Hi Cary, I haven't used the machineable jaws. How about an expandable mandrel? Made like an expandable lap. Turn a length of stock, say 2" long out of aluminum, to just under the diameter you need to hold a ring. Slot the stock 2/3 or so the way through long ways. Drill and tap for one or two small setscrews, say 4-40 or 5-40 on one side of the slot. you should now be able to slip the stock over the mandrel, tighten up the setscrew(s) up enough to hold. Alan KM6VV ------- Date: Sun, 06 Feb 2005 21:46:15 -0000 From: "Marv Frankel" Subject: Re: Has anyone bought and machined the soft jaws>>>> Guys, a mandrel is the right idea, and there are several choices. You can make a long slim mandrel, tapered about .010" from end to end, with the diameter in the middle about the same as the ring I.D., and supported by a tailstock center on one end. Press the ring blank on until it feels tight enough, and when you finish, press the ring off. Choice #2 is the better one. Make a long slim mandrel with a taper of less than 3/4" to the foot.(self- holding taper) Bore a sleeve with the same taper, and the outside machined straight to an O.D. slightly less than the ring I/D.. Slot the sleeve for most of the way in one direction, rotate 90 degrees and slot it most of the way in the opposite direction. I've used both of these methods, and they work, but if you use method #2, you can make several different O.D. sleeves to accomodate varying ring sizes. Marv Frankel Los Angeles ------- Date: Mon, 07 Feb 2005 15:13:21 -0700 From: Mark Zirinsky Subject: Re: Has anyone bought and machined the soft jaws>>>> A better way of holding a ring, is using a "cone mandrel" which is easily made, brass and /or plastic is best (especially for scrap recovery). A good photo of one in use is in this month's Lapidary Journal (or maybe AJM), but they are easily made. Also, a cone mandrel (2 opposing cones) is more accurate on a lathe than an expansion mandrel. (I use an expansion mandrel for holding rings, usually for polishing or flush setting.) Mark Zirinsky, Denver ------- Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2005 06:59:46 -0500 From: "Jerry G" Subject: Re: Has anyone bought and machined the soft jaws>>>> Cary, Suggestion, Put a piece of stock in the three jaw chuck. Can be wood, aluminum, brass, etc. Turn a very shallow taper with the compound slide (less than one degree) that is a few thousandth's under and a few thousandth's over the ID of your ring... Have the large end closer to the chuck and the small end towards the tailstock. Slip your ring over the tapered mandrel you have just made, and friction will hold it. Just make sure you push it firmly towards the headstock. If it is not running true, make a push on tool that will fit in the tailstock to transfer the alignment to the ring on the mandrel. The push on tool will have a shank that fits in the drill chuck in the tailstock, and a bore to clear your mandrel and a face that has been squared up to the shank... Since you do it often, it pays to make this. Also, consider the mandrel sacrificial..... cut in to it if you have to. Please let me know how you make out. Regards, Jerry G (Glickstein) ------- Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2005 14:54:08 -0500 From: "Statman Designs, LLC" Subject: Re: Re: Has anyone bought and machined the soft jaws>>>> Absolutely, they will work beautifully. As a matter of fact they work EVERY single day. I am always amazed out how difficult and complex a solution most people seem to come up with. The soft jaws can EASILY be machined to hold rings from the inside or outside, and once machined, they can hold ANY ring size. Personally, I just use the 3-jaw chucks. Takes about 10 seconds to mount any size ring. Is it always dead-nuts perfectly true, nope. Does it matter in the least, nope. BTW, I machine lots and lots of gold rings as well as titanium. Daniel J. Statman, Statman Designs www.statmandesigns.com dan.statmanx~xxrennlist.net ------- Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2005 09:09:04 -0000 From: "Mark Iennaco" Subject: ER- Collets? Does anyone have a drawing/plans for either an ER-16 or ER-20 collet closer for the sherline headstock? ER-16 seems like a really good size for a readily available collet that pretty much covers the stock that fits through the spindle. Thanks. ------- Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2005 10:15:22 -0000 From: "Jim Knighton" Subject: Re: ER- Collets? [sherline group] Mark, Sherline offers an ER-16 spindle, sans collets and closer, through its industrial products division. As I understand it, the chucks and other headstock accessories don't fit on this spindle. Alternatively, both Dan Pines and myself have adapted commercially available ER-20 chucks to the Sherline lathe. A photo of my ER-20 setup is in the forum archive in a folder bearing my name, in a subfolder labeled "ER20 Collet Chuck". This adaptation has proven to be exceedingly useful and an excellent match to the Sherline's capabilities. I am very enthusiastic about this accessory. Please note that this is an adaptation of a commercially available chuck, not a shop-built ER closer. I machined a suitable mounting hub from a Sherline threaded blank to mount the chuck on the Sherline's spindle. This was so successful, in my opinion, that I subsequently did the same adaptation with a stubby ER-40 chuck using a similar approach. There is a photo of the ER-40 chuck in the subfolder "4400 Woodturning Lathe". This is not to suggest that the ER-40 chuck is only useful in that application - it is the machine I was working on at the time I did the ER-40 adaptation, and that's where I mounted it to take the photo. I use the ER-40 chuck in both woodturning and metal turning applications - very successfully. There are no doubt some who think this outrageous and overkill. However, mine is an unusual lathe, as perhaps you will see if you browse the other photos. The ER-40 chuck suits the capabilities and character of this heavily modified machine. Dan Pines has also done a ER-32 adaptation as well. He and I correspond regularly and we were both chasing ER collet adaptations at the same time. His approach for mounting these chucks differs from mine, and you can contact him for the specifics. I hope this helps some... Jim Knighton ------- Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 09:43:36 -0800 From: "Marcus and Eva" Subject: Re: Re: ER collets for square stock... "Jim Knighton" wrote: > My question regarding the ER collets is mostly academic. Since I > already have square 5C collets I don't know that I would buy or make > their ER equivalent. I didn't know that the collapsing nature of ER > collets would work well with anything other than round stock. I > still don't, for what it's worth. I'm trying to figure out if the > statement on that web site is factually correct, that's all. > > As you know, there are also a variety of 5C accessories including > index blocks, milling fixtures, spin indexers, etc. I've never seen > the ER equivalents of these, either. Clearly, that doesn't mean they > don't exist - just that I haven't encountered them. Given my limited > background and lack of industry experience, I'm trying to broaden my > horizon a bit. > > Does the fact that I haven't encountered square and hex ER collets > before now suggest that the collet design isn't conducive to holding > stock in these shapes? Alternatively, since ER collets are a > relatively recent invention, dating from the 1970s and thus placing > them in the then emerging NC and CNC world, does it mean > that "industry" doesn't need or use them? The same applies to the > other commonly used 5C accessories. Regards, Jim Hi Jim: The ER series is designed and intended for tool holding not work holding. Lots of people use them for these other purposes, but that ain't what they're supposed to be for. They do work well though, but you're largely on your own for accessories that are common as dirt for 5C. Cheers Marcus ------- Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 09:39:31 -0800 From: "Marcus and Eva" Subject: Re: Re: ER collets for square stock... "dan pines" wrote: > i know what a broach is. > i know the square and hex types retail at msc-direct for 100$ +++ > i know that with enough care and attention they can be home made (not > on a lathe though)and you would need more than one for a range of collets > i doubt that it would be reasonable to try to make precision ER > collets at home, especially if they are not available (there must be > a reason) commercially. Hi Dan: There is another way, and it involves nothing more than a mill or even a milling attachment for the lathe. When I have short runs to do and I'm too cheap to buy the proper collet, or it's an odd size that I can't get, I'll make up a split bushing with the right shape. The secret to success is the fact that it's split...that allows the halves to be milled and then simply put together and held together with an O ring. The whole works then goes into an ordinary round collet. Making the split sleeve takes a bit of organized planning...here's what you do: Start with a piece of rectangular stock that's 4 times as long as you want the collet to be when it's finished, and thicker than half the diameter, and wider than the whole diameter of your finished sleeve. Plan for a bit of extra to make a shoulder on the sleeve so it will stay in the right spot when you slide it into the collet. Mount it in the mill vise and mill it nice and parallel on the two wide faces. If you have a 5400 mill, you need to align the long axis of the stock with the Y axis of the mill...if you have a 2000 mill, it doesn't matter. Try for 0.001" parallelism or better. This is because you'll need to tip the head to make the profile, and you can only tip the head one way on the 5400. After you face the second side DON"T REMOVE IT FROM THE MILL!!! Now you can put your profile in. For a square profile, tip the head 45 degrees and then scratch a line roughly down the middle of the block with a cheap vernier running one leg along the edge of the block. No need for killer precision here, but you do NOT want to take the block out of the vise or the vise off the table to scribe an accurate line. Now calculate the exact depth you need to drop a cutter straight down to get your profile the correct cross section width. If you're as lazy as I am, you'll just sketch up the profile in CAD and interrogate the drawing rather than calculating it with Trigonometry. Your objective is to make a Vee shaped ditch that's exactly the right depth so your square stock will drop in exactly half way. If your square stock is nice and accurate with dead sharp corners, you can drop a sample of your stock into the groove and mike if you're at the right depth...if not, you'll have to do it by theory, and reading the handwheel to tell you when you're there. You can also drop in a round bar and mike that using trig again or the CAD cheat to tell you what the micrometer reading should be. In any event, you want the stock to drop in exactly half way and no more. Once you're satisfied that your slot is as good as it's ever going to be, whip it out of the vise and cut it in half so you have two identical pieces each with your profile running down the center. Before you get carried away with the next step, turn up a round pin that will just go in the profile exactly half way and that's a bit longer than the two pieces of your collet-to-be. The best way to find out what the diameter should be, is to turn it on the lathe and try closing the halves of the collet blank over it, if it's some oddball size. If it's supposed to be a nominal size, you should have gotten it dead nuts with the milling of the vee groove and miking it over the nominal size rod dropped in the groove. Drop the assembly of pin, and two collet halves into the vise so the vise sandwiches them together. You want the pin sticking out both ends. Clock the top of the pin in until it's dead nuts parallel with the X axis movement of the vise, and then squeeze the vise. Mill a whisker off the tops of the blocks. Flip it in the vise and whisker off the other side. You care more about parallelism than getting the rod exactly centered. Now you can pop the pieces into your 4 jaw chuck so the slots are facing each other with the pin in between. The sides where the jaws touch the split line should be padded with a hard pad...I use 3/16" square lathe tool blanks cut into stubby pieces. You can clock in the pin as accurately as you have the patience for. Stick the pin out a fair ways so you can clock it in more than one place. Lots of fiddling and piddling will get you there. Another good way to get nice longitudinal alignment, is to pop a center into the end of the pin. Drill and tap a screw through the whole works right at one end of the blocks, and counterbore the screwhead nice and deep into the block so you don't clobber it when you turn the outside down. Then grab the other end only about a quarter inch into the jaws of the 4 jaw, and run a tailstock center against the center hole in the pin. Clock in the pin right at the chuck, and rely on the center to hold it aligned at the other end. Now turn the whole works round, to a diameter 0.050" bigger then the collet you're planning to slip this bushing into. Turn most of it down to nominal diameter, leaving a step of 0.025 X 0.050 or so. Turn in a groove anywhere that's deep enough to accept an o ring, and then cut the square stump off with a hacksaw. Face off the end in a collet and you're almost there. Take the sleeve apart and sand down the faces a bit (or pop them in the mill and whack off a couple of thou), so the collet will close properly on undersize stock. You're done...works a treat as the Brits like to say, and it's certainly easier to do than to write about. Put it together with an o ring drop it in the collet drop in your stock and start turning. Hope this helps Apologies for the long windedness of it all. Cheers Marcus ------- Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2005 18:21:42 -0000 From: "jehintz" Subject: Removing Spindle Collets [atlas craftsman group, but suggestions apply to other lathes and mills] I have a Craftsman 6" and was wondering if anyone has devised a way of removing collets from the headstock spindle with out pounding/tapping on the drawbar. The only way I can see without using a puller that would have to pull against the small spindle gear is to weld an extension onto a C- clamp and then cut out a slot to go around the spindle. This extension would then push against the inside of the headstock casting with the screw portion pushing against the drawbar. Any suggestions would be appreciated. Jon ------- Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2005 21:13:46 -0000 From: "azbruno" Subject: Re: Removing Spindle Collets The first attachment I made for my 6" Craftsman was an aluminum spindle nut. When I have an MT2 arbor in the headstock and the part sticking out of the headstock is greater diameter than the spindle nut ID, then unscrewing the nut pushes out the arbor. I would think it should work for MT2 collets. -Bruno ------- Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2005 00:10:03 EST From: anthrhodesx~xxaol.com Subject: Re: Removing Spindle Collets << I would think it should work for MT2 collets. >> It won't because the MT-2 collets are approximately flush with the end of the spindle. However, the drawbar could be redesigned so that a nut run onto the left end of the spindle over a large shoulder on the drawbar would provide a place for the drawbar to butt against and thereby push the collet out when the drawbar was unscrewed from the collet. Anthony Berkeley, Calif. ------- Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2005 17:20:10 -0500 From: "mertbaker" Subject: Re: Removing Spindle Collets The Morse taper is too gradual to be self releasing, hence the need for the tap. Use an old hammer handle. I have a lead hammer for the Clausing mill, which has a #2 taper also. Mert ------- Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 20:03:20 -0500 From: "Ken Gastineau" Subject: Re: engraving letters on silver [sherline group] > I have sherline cnc ,standard motor pulley setup. > To engrave I have a springloaded diamond mounted point down. This works > ok but the results are not as sharp as I would like. > I have used this on all metals, but my primary use would be silver. > What is the best setup for engraving Silver ? bits,speed etc. I'm not sure who I am addressing as there is no signature in this thread. Typically for engraving metals like Sterling Silver which engrave rather well by the way, you would use a single lip cutter which is ground to suite the metal and the application you are working with. I use points as small as .005" and up. It all depends on what you are doing. There are companies that sell single lip cutter points or you can make your own using a "single lip cutter grinder ($$)". I make my own and am glad that I setup to do that as small points break easily. As far as speed etc. it all depends on the size of the point. For small points I would imagine that 10,000 rpm would be the minimum. Speed would have to be slow depending on depth of cut. Ken Gastineau Gastineau Studio Berea, Kentucky ------- Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 18:22:26 -0500 From: Subject: Re: engraving letters on silver Ken. I have a faceting machine. I "spin " the shaft to get the 30' angle point. then cut the flat on the tool by hand at the edge of the diamond lap. at this point I am not getting something right, and probably should break down and order some, at least to get a closer look...the only reference I have to what the tip should look like is off the internet. http://www.2linc.com/engraving_tools.htm for example. David ------- Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 21:25:31 -0500 From: "Ken Gastineau" Subject: Re: engraving letters on silver David: I am certainly no expert in cutter geometry. I use a small Preis single lip cutter grinder that is made just for sharpening such points. As I understand it there are two cutting edges on a typical conical engraving point, the edge and the point. The relief behind the cutting edges is what I believe makes the cutting edges work properly. When you grind a point into a perfect conical form, you eliminate the relief behind the cutting edge of the cone profile. The point is yet another set of angles with relief necessary also. Look at this page from Antares http://www.antaresinc.net/FactSheets/Anatomy.html . Pay particular attention to the illustration about clearance angles and the graphic of the clearance angle profile. Single lip cutter grinders have specialty indexing features to allow grinding the necessary clearance angles. I have never used a faceting machine so I don't know how or if it is possible to accurately grind the relief angles necessary. I am sure that it would be possible but may require a method to limit the rotation of the cutter point when grinding the initial conical shape as this is how it is done on single lip cutter grinders. Ken Gastineau Gastineau Studio Berea, Kentucky ------- Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 16:04:38 -0500 From: "Roger Malinowski" Subject: Re: Re: On-line retail source for small diameter cutting tools? [taigtools group] Here are some good sources for small cutters. My range is generally in the .010 - .015 range. Northbay cutting tools http://www.northbaytechnical.com/ American Carbide http://www.american-carbide.com/MicroEndMills/MicroEndMills.aspx Harvey Tool http://www.harveytool.com/carbide_long_reach_miniature_end_mills.htm Discount tools http://www.discount-tools.com/endmills1.htm Drillbit City http://www.drillbitcity.com/ Precise Cut http://www.precisecut.com/default.htm I think in some cases you will find most of these places a bit more economical than Cutting edge tech and most have a better variety of "miniature cutters". Don't overlook the information that is on some of these sites, especially Precise Cut. Roger ------- NOTE TO FILE: This following ER collet thread was also talking specifically about the Taig mill and those messages are in the Taig Mill Tips file. Some messages are generically applicable to many lathes or mills and were placed here. Please also read the other file starting 20 June 2005 for a more complete picture as to some adapters and alternative approaches. ------- Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 09:14:44 +0100 From: Steve Blackmore Subject: Re: Re: ER 16 collet inquiry [taigtools] On Sun, 19 Jun 2005 02:53:31 -0000, you wrote: >There have been a number of threads recently regarding ER Collets >(noticed Taig now offers a ER Spindle as an option by the way - don't >know the details) and End Mill holders in general and set screw type >Endmill Holders in particular and I was poking around and found the >following thread of messages that others might find of interest: >http://www.desktopcnc.com/november03swarf.htm >The messages posted at the link above where originally posted to >alt.machines.cnc Just to add further to a couple of points raised in the above articles. Tools DONT walk out of ER collets - because it's designed so (unlike a lot of other collets) that it compresses along it's whole length. WW collets are appalling - having said that, they were to designed to hold work in a jeweller's lathe, not tools ;) Collets with parallel sections and/or slots only in the mouth end will not grip tools fully and the tool will pull out. That's precisely the reason Clarkson type collets have threads that hold the tool too. The nuts don't crack if they are a reasonable make and you only use the recommended spanner to tighten them. An ER16 spanner is deliberately short - it doesn't need you to swing on it or use extension bars to tighten correctly. Run out is negligible in the collets/holder I use - It came from J&L industrial and is less than what I can measure here. My best lever dial indicator does 0.01mm per division (.0003936996 inch) and it moves well less than a quarter of a division - Certainly better than the head bearings . Steve Blackmore ------- Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 02:30:20 -0000 From: "yotie888" Subject: Re: ER 16 collet inquiry One thing I would like to add after doing some research this last week. If you decide to go with a 3/4" collet chuck shank, you can go up to an ER-20 or ER-25 collet chuck. With an ER-20 you can get up to 1/2" collets. This is the route I have decided to go since I have a few tools with a 1/2" shank. I found some 40mm O.D. x 3/4" I.D. bearings which I should have in a couple of days. I will post on how it all went together once I get it done. On the other hand, if you decide to just use the ER-16 collet chuck, this is available with a 5/8" shank. And you can easily get 40mm O.D. x 5/8" I.D. bearings from Grainger. They have them in stock. The 3/4" bore bearings were a bit more difficult to get. All the major supplies I talked to like NTN, and Peer said they have discontinued them. I found them through a company that carried BCA bearings (who are now NTN). They only had 3 in stock and I bought them. They told me they should get more in, but who knows. Hope this helps some. ------- Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2005 11:47:37 -0000 From: "dan pines" Subject: ER16 (or larger) spindle hi all having followed the recent threads i would like to contribute the following: looking thru the catalog of caporali (italy) - no business connection, i just use some of their collet closers and collets - i found out that there is an ER16 straight shank closer with a reduced shank of 8 mm. this would go through the sherline/taig spindles and could be held in any chuck, endmill holder etc. - material/tool size feed through is of course limited. moreover, if one would fit such a closer as a ram in the tailstock it would do away with the need for a jacobs drill chuck on the tailstock as well. other available ER16 straight shanks are 10mm, 12mm, 14mm, 16mm, 20mm, 22mm, 25mm, 32mm, 1/2", 5/8", 3/4", 1" shank lengths start from 30mm through 160mm, 2.36" thru 3.93". not all lengths available with all shank diameters. similar selection with the larger ER sizes. i do not know the ID of the taig headstock bearings but i would not be surprised if one of the avaiable sizes would fit. they sell here (israel) for about 50$ and could make suitable spindles. see www.cnctools.it for more details. i assume they should be available in the usa and from other manufacturers as well. i have been using them on a sherline for about a year (ER20, ER32) with an adapter made from a taig blank arbor. nick carter recently published a couple of photos on his site. jim knighton just published that he went one step further than i did i.e. shortened the shank much more than i did and came up with an enviable midget adapter. to sum up, many alternative options are there for you to choose from. regards dan pines ------- Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 18:06:33 -0700 From: William Abernathy Subject: Re: indexable toolholders and bits [atlas_craftsman] Steve wrote: > Here's one I'm sure will result in some differences of opinion, but > that's what I'd like to see is what does everyone think. > There are soooo many different shapes and sizes of carbide bits. > There are more than 100 styles in the MSC catalog. > What are people using and why? What are the pros/cons of different types. > Is there a good all-around one (e.g. the one to get if you can > only get one), or are there a few you think you can't do without? There are a whole lot of styles because there are a whole lot of jobs out there. Of the literally thousands of indexable inserts, you won't have a conceivable need for more than a handful. The only kind I use are the 1/4" "TT" inserts (there's a proper 4-letter code for them, but I'm not looking it up) available from Enco and others. You could conceivably want an inside thread cutter as well, though carbide insert-based tools are spendy for this job. I bought mine because they were available for less than $20 for the set, with inserts, and I wanted to see what good they are. For home use, I have to say there's nothing I've yet seen to indicate that indexable carbide is really a necessity. If you can grind your own tools, you're pretty much covered for the speeds and feeds you'll see on an Atlas. Even with coolant Carbide is great stuff for industrial processes in which you're making lots of widgets fast. You spin the work or the tool up to ridiculous speeds and go to it with carbide because at high enough speeds you can overheat HSS tools even with coolant. Carbide works just fine at these crazy fast speeds. Another advantage is that for specialized cutters, you don't have as much down-time or skilled labor or tooling involved in resharpening the cutter. Rather than hiring a skilled machinist to regrind the tool on the Darex, you hire a monkey boy to unscrew the spent insert (or inserts) and rotate or reverse it or pop on a new one. On an assembly line, this can add up to big money. Not so in your garage. For the sort of work you'll be doing on an Atlas, these considerations aren't that important. These are not production lathes, and people don't use them if they're in a hurry to crank out a lot of widgets. One advantage to indexable and brazed carbide bits is that they are of fixed height and a fixed pitch and profile. I can swap my left-hand cutter with a left-facing cutter, then thread the part with the center-point cutter without adjusting the height. For most lathe work I do, I stick with the HSS bits. Learning to grind your own tools is not hard and carries a certain satisfaction that inserting carbide tiddly-winks lacks. Also, HSS, while not as hard as carbide, is a lot tougher, hence more forgiving: if you hand-turn your work back a quarter-turn with a carbide bit still against it, the tip will chip off, and you've just wasted one point of your insert. It seems every time I dust off the insert tools I manage to chip off another corner. > Are there any that we should not be using (e.g. inappropriate to > use on the Atlas lathe because they are intended for forces higher > than the Atlas can handle)? Many of the inserts are too huge to be useful on an Atlas. Many have odd shapes that should be next to useless for any job you want to do. If the insert fits a holder that fits, and if the thing curls a chip, then it's appropriate for use on your lathe. Some form-type inserts, like circular ones, may start out okay then get chattery. My 10" didn't do well cutting a 1/2" round pulley groove. YMMV. > Also, what are the pros/cons of these vs just plain old high-speed > steel or tooling with carbide bits brazed on the ends (just picked up > a fistful of them for $10 at a garage sale). Steve You got your money's worth. William A. ------- Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 02:45:27 -0000 From: "azbruno" Subject: Re: indexable toolholders and bits Hard to add to William A's response, but I can also suggest looking at J&L Industrials' catalog (it's online). They have quite decent descriptions and specifications for the various indexible tools. -Bruno ------- Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 22:55:11 -0500 From: "jerdal" Subject: Re: indexable toolholders and bits Well, here is the different opinion...... For most stuff, use HSS. Go to estate and garage sales and buy ANY ground cutters you see, if reasonably priced. I probably have 300 different ones, almost all bought pre-ground. There is nearly always one to use. Buy brazed carbide cutters too, but for them, try to get unused ones, not ones ground to a nubbin. For inserts, get the 5 piece holder set "TT" stuff. Now, there are folks who say "don't use carbide, the lathe can't supply the power to use it right". They OBVIOUSLY never have had to turn a chunk of 4140 pre-hardened down. Here is a link to a pic of work I did a while back, its a mill arbor for a Lewis mill. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/0803/jstanley/arb15la1.jpg The piece is 4140 prehard. Using HSS was just not profitable, I was grinding all the time, it wore down so fast. I had to get a long section of 1.5" diameter down to 1.25", one end to an MT3 taper, and the other down to a 0.500 journal. Lots of material removal, most in one setup. You can see bright blue chips on the toolpost top, it was being excercised well.. Carbide worked great. Only a bit of honing of the edge. You can see a brazed carbide cutter in place. Eventually, I went to my "TT" type indexable. Problem was that its a flat belt lathe, and stalled in teh cut from time to time if I overdid the feed. That usually chipped the inserts, but didn't bother the brazed cutter. I used the TT for finishing, as a result. So, the "TT" type 5 piece set of holders with inserts gets my vote. I have teh 3/8 IC inserts. Get lots of brazed cutters also, whenver you can. Old ones, not new chinee junk. But mostly, use HSS unless you need carbide because you cannot afford to re-set the tool (use inserts), have nasty material (use inserts or brazed), etc. Stay away from negative rake carbide, in general. It takes much more power and lots of force ramming it into the work. Not good for Atlas (or in my case, Logan) lathes. JT ------- Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 20:20:54 -0400 From: Nick Hull Subject: Re: indexable toolholders and bits >There are soooo many different shapes and sizes of carbide bits. There are >more than 100 styles in the MSC catalog. What are people using and why? I use TNMG in my own toolholder with a 7 deg nose droop to give it an automatic 7 deg relief angle. The bit then has 6 usable points. I'm no expert but it works in my 6" lathe. ------- Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 17:50:58 -0400 From: Charles Gallo Subject: Re: indexable toolholders and bits OK - I've avoided jumping in till now. I have a whole web page on Carbide for the Home Shop: http://www.thegallos.com/carbide.htm Been a LONG time since I updated it, but what is there is still true. ------- Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2005 14:50:55 -0500 From: Jon Elson Subject: Re: indexable toolholders and bits Charles Gallo wrote: >http://www.thegallos.com/carbide.htm >been a LONG time since I updated it, but what is there is still true I generally agree with what you have there, but I have used the uncoated C-2 and some C-5 inserts with excellent results on a 10" and later a 12" Atlas lathe. I just got a good deal on about 50 coated inserts, so I'm set for the next decade, at least! But, I would have bought them without coating, I really don't see the coating as having any benefit on the lighter lathes. The coatings mostly reduce wear on the carbide, and may reduce sticking of the chip to the insert, to some extent. I've only worn out about 2 inserts in the over 15 years I've been using them! Mostly, I have bind-ups or chatter that chips the cutting edges. Coatings won't help avoid that. Jon ------- Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 15:35:09 -0400 From: bdmail Subject: Re: indexable toolholders and bits I have a 618 and have great luck with the Insert tools. And that isn't even the good stuff....I have the TT style Chinese ones. With the TT style, you aren't supposed to try to take off a thousandth like you can with HSS. The top surface is shaped to cut better at .006 or greater depth of cut. One thing I noticed is that with the Chinese ones, you have to take off the insert and make sure there aren't any loose particles underneath the insert, and to check that the insert seats right. Otherwise the geometry - and possibly the rigidity - is compromised Bernie ------- Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 16:51:34 -0000 From: "paul_probus" Subject: Re: indexable toolholders and bits Here is another site. http://www.metalwebnews.com/howto/toolholder/toolholder.html Both Charles' and Ted's are good resources for anyone looking into getting indexable tooling for the home shop. While its a bit pricey, I can recommend the Diamond toolholder for interrupted cuts on unhardened pieces. Interrupted cuts will kill carbide, at least the cheap TT inserts die quite easily from it (I know from experience). IMHO, the DT is about the closest thing to indexable tooling using commonly available HSS lathe bits (one company does sell indexable HSS cutters that fit into their indexible toolholders, they look just like the carbide cutters only made from HSS, the advantage is that you can swap out the HSS for the carbide without changing the toolholder, but you can't resharpen them and get the same repeatability, so you don't gain anything over the DT, IMHO). Someone on the 7x10minilathe group built their own, so you could consider building your own. Standard disclaimer applies: I don't have any financial interest, whatsoever, in the sales of the DT (or in the importer, Bay-Com), I am simply a happy owner of one. Paul ------- NOTE TO FILE: The Diamond style toolholder in its commercial and homemade versions was discussed in the file "Toolholders Taig or Sherline" -- open that file and search for Diamond. The next posting concerns some of the causes of chatter during turning. While we here are mainly interested in metal lathes, chatter is a harmonic problem that can affect traditional wood turning also. This original forum is about the Atlas 6" lathes, but the comments apply just as well to any small lathes like Taig or Sherline, or much bigger ones. ------- Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 22:15:33 -0700 From: "Steve B" Subject: Re: Re: Weird pattern on my work! [atlas618lathe] Tool pressure is a huge cause of chatter in the little lathes . On a large lathe, reducing the tool radius helps. Or going with a faster feedrate, or both. Changing speeds up and down while cutting is a good way to break up the harmonics etc... I truly believe that the 618 really is best served with HSS tooling. In that the speeds and feeds available with the machine are very well suited to the materials that were in use when the machine was designed. It is very easy to create a great cutting tool with HSS and to be able to modify it to the needs at hand using only a bench grinder. The effort made in learning this skill will yield great finishes and probably save you heartache. I don't add anything special to my HSS bits....I use them in a tool block and not the lantern type post. Most likely because I was trained to use tool blocks and not lantern posts....if I need shear angle stuff, I grind it into the tool. Carbide requires tool pressure. There is no way around that. Even the smallest radius tools are ill suited to the 618 compared to what you should be able to hand grind into a HSS blank in a few minutes. There seems to be a trend toward carbide in these forums and it appears to me that is because of the ease in which inserts are changed vs. learning to sharpen HSS. I received some great advice from an old planer operator about the 618 lathe and that was use nothing but HSS. That probably doesn't mean alot to the readers/contributors here, but it is gospel to me. I use the 618 for hobby/fun stuff. I use it to relax and to enjoy. I like the smell of cutting oil. Remove time from equation and cut steel the old timey way. you got an old timey lathe. Use it. You'll be rewarded with great finishes and highly accurate work. There can be no greater accomplishment for a machinist. Steve Bergeron ------- Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2005 10:52:38 -0700 From: "Steve B" Subject: Re: Carbide or HSS, or both? / was Weird pattern on my work! The following is one guy's opinions, yours may vary: Running carbide will also start to show where the 618 is worn, as tool pressures add up and are transferred into the ways, headstock bearing and gear train. Carbide would make an otherwise fine 618 appear to be looser than it really is. I know that depends on your point of view, in that if you want to run carbide, you are going to need to tighten things up. The brazed on carbide tools are a great way to see what the basic HSS grinds should be. The main drawback to the Brazed-on carbide stuff is the inability to resharpen them without the "green" wheel unless your home shop is so equipped. Nicely touched up brazed carbide stuff works fine in my experience, but it is usually because the tool point radius is pretty sharp . With Carbide insert tooling, your best nose radius is going to be "1" . That digit represents the radius in 64's of an inch. So a "1" is 0.0156 radius . Going straight to your change gears, and seeing what feeds you have available, you will see the "fastest" feed available is 0.0078. That plays right into chatter in my experience. You are trying to cut your cut so to speak. If you had more feed, your tool nose would always be in "new" material. This helps considerably when trying to get past chatter. Not advancing the tool fast enough is a major contributor to chatter. You don't want to cut a thread to reduce chatter but the next faster feed would be the setup for a 72tpi thread which is a feed of close 0.014. In my mind as I was writing this I was thinking about 0.010-0.012 for a number 1 radius. 0.014 might be just fine, especially for roughing material off. But what do you do when it is time to finish? You still have the nose radius to deal with and feeds that are either too much or too fine to not be "chatter-free"? Instead of doing that, I think I'll stick with the cheap HSS and tool nose radiuses that I can control with a cheap bench grinder. The machine's feeds are set up for tighter nose radius . Brazed carbide tools would be the next step in my opinion, but the requirement for having a green wheel makes them a poor choice for my "home shop". And Carbide insert tooling? Yes, I have some at home, but it has always been more difficult to play with the change gears and monkey aroound with them than it has been to use HSS. They'd probably be great in wood and maybe plastics too . The tool pressures that are involved with carbide insert tooling, the nose radius and the shear type angle geometry all have to be taken into account within the machine tool. Those pressures will be transferred into your workpiece, and into your machine, skewing your carriage, compound and headstock. Keeping your tools as "free-cutting" as possible minimizes those forces on the machine and translates into better accuracy. Nothing is as "free- cutting" as a properly ground HSS bit. The 618 was designed for HSS tools and performs great with them. I don't think the machine has nearly enough "rigidity" nor the proper feeds available to make insert tooling worthwhile of the investment of the tooling. The 618 was made for home use with general home stuff like a basic bench grinder. Getting a tool post to hold 3/8 hss....that makes sense to me. Trying to run carbide insert tooling is silly. I imagine the insert tooling that is being used is 1/2 inch....but even that seems a bit large for the 618. Not to mention the initial cost of the tooling, and then inserts on top of that. That is just me. Steve Bergeron ------- Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 23:09:19 +0000 From: j.w.earlyx~xxatt.net Subject: Re: 'Backing off' what does this mean? [beginnerswkshp] "jonkzak" wrote: > I'm refering to the term that is used when sharping a reamer or cutting > tool. I've read serveral references that describe the process of > creating a reamer by slabbing off half of a profile and hardening then > the description mentions backing off on the cutting edge. What is > meant by this? Regards,> JJ For drills see the DrillSharp folder at the below location. For lathe tooling see the ToolSharp folder. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/mwhints3/files/ For milling and gear cutters check out the series in this location. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/mwmills2/files/Duplex/ JWE Long Beach, CA ------- Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 07:26:50 -0700 (PDT) From: Richard Schaal Subject: Diamond Grinding Wheel? What is the group experience in using a diamond wheel to sharpen brazed carbide bits? I'm trying to choose between diamond and silicon carbide wheels where the diamond looks to be about 3 times the $$ as the silicon carbide. Thanks! Richard ------- Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 15:32:10 -0000 From: "jdmichael2001" Subject: Re: Diamond Grinding Wheel? Richard: I've used both. I prefer the diamond wheels. The silicon carbide wheels are very soft so need repeated dressing to keep the wheel in shape and they produce a lot of swarf. The diamond wheel cuts much nicer and smoother but you can't be rough with it. You'll often see setups with one of each for roughing and finishing. You'll always be happier with the finish of the diamond wheel Jan ------- Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 13:03:43 EDT From: jmartin957x~xxaol.com Subject: Re: Re: Diamond Grinding Wheel? The primary reason for having both is the grinding of brazed carbide tools. The SiC wheel will grind both the carbide and the steel backing it. You can't grind the steel part with a diamond wheel. Diamond is fine for low temperature lapping of steel. At grinding temperatures, however, the steel will absorb carbon from the diamond and ruin the wheel pretty quickly. John Martin ------- Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 13:42:52 EDT From: wbhinklex~xxaol.com Subject: Re: Diamond Grinding Wheel? A green wheel is used to shape the carbide and the diamond wheel is used to hone it. You will need both of them. bill hinkle in Oklahoma ------- Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 17:49:33 EDT From: jmartin957x~xxaol.com Subject: Re: Re: Diamond Grinding Wheel? In a message dated 8/11/05, jdmichaelx~xxaol.com writes: > >Diamond is fine for low temperature lapping of steel. At grinding > >temperatures, however, the steel will absorb carbon from the > diamond and ruin the wheel pretty quickly. John Martin > > John, I'm not sure I understand what's happening, and/or from my > misunderstanding don't quite agree. I've done quite a bit of > grinding high speed steel parts with a (peripheral) diamond wheel. > That's the only productive way to get fit and finish with hard-to- > grind steels. I did use coolant. I'm suspecting that the migration > of carbon from diamond to steel is a hypothesis covering something > else happening such as plugging the wheel with steel that needs to be > washed away for continued clean cutting. Jan Hypothesis? The folks at Norton don't think so, and they know a bit more about grinding than I do. Maybe even more than anyone else. They recommend that you keep the grinding of steel with diamond wheels to an absolute minimum. I suppose I should have said "dry" grinding temperatures. You do say that you use coolant, which obviously helps. While your experience may be different, I think you'll find that most manufacturers recommend aluminum oxide or cubic boronitride wheels - not diamond wheels - for steels including HSS. John Martin ------- Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 21:28:26 -0500 From: Jon Elson Subject: Re: Re: Need Help understanding Collet Sizing [atlas_craftsman] sauer38h wrote: >I've had cutters gradually drift out of R8 collets when cutting some >difficult materials, like pure copper, but in my experience the more >gradual tapers, like Morse or B&S, grip like grim death. The idea that >a set screw could hold more tightly seems bizarre. The set screw absolutely prevents spinning of cutters that have the Weldon flat cut into the shank. These setscrews are quite large, usually just a little smaller than the shank diameter. The proper method of locking the cutter in is to twist it in the direction of spindle torque would apply to the cutter, and to pull the cutter all the way out against the set screw when you lock it down. This way, the forces on the cutter will just bury those edges of the Weldon flat harder against the screw. After a while, you get so used to inserting the cutter this way that you aren't even aware you are doing it anymore. And, yes, the shallow angles of the Morse and B&S tapers do lock the tool pretty tightly. Now, of course, the hot technology is thermal shrink-fit holders. You use a small induction heating unit to quickly heat up the holder and release the tool. When it cools, the holder is an extremely tight interference fit that won't release for anything. (There are also hydraulic versions of the same concept, but they are harder to describe.) Jon ------- Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 11:29:47 -0500 From: Jon Elson Subject: Re: Re: Need Help understanding Collet Sizing sauer38h wrote: >Sounds like endmill holders should work almost as well as decent collets. Endmill holders can be quite a bit more rigid than collets, and can allow the endmill to be extended from the spindle nose. The weldon flat and setscrew absolutely guarantee that the endmill cannot spin, and that it can only be "sucked out" of the holder by the amount of slop in the fit between the slot and screw. That slop is usually very small, and if you pull on the end mill while tightening the setscrew, it will be zero. Except on extension holders, the end mill is guaranteed to break off before the setscrew gives way. >I have no experience with endmill holders. I never had occasion to >want to use one. I've used collets exclusively to hold tools in >vertical mills since the 1970s, and they've performed well - except >for the episode with the copper. That was an R8 collet in a Rockwell >vertical. I fixed it by tightening the drawbar a bit more. Brute >force? To be sure. But after that the collet performed sterling service. Well, that's the problem with the R-8, and a number of more steeply tapered spindles of the "self-releasing" sort, is that the radial clamping force produced by reasonable drawbar loads are less than the "self-holding" tapers, like Morse and B&S. And, I NEVER want to go back to the days of beating the &^% out of the drawbar to get a B&S collet to release! Another feature of the endmill holder is that you get the tool located at a repeatable position every time you put the holder in the spindle. (That doesn't apply to changing the endmill itself, but treating the cutter+holder as a unit.) This is more important with CNC, but if you use a DRO you could store offsets for several tools in the DRO and not have to re-zero for each tool change. I rarely use collets anymore in my mill. Now, for centering work in the lathe, a collet is a great thing. Someday, I will treat myself to a collet chuck. Jon ------- Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 12:20:00 -0500 From: "Joe Smith" Subject: RE: Re: Need Help understanding Collet Sizing Conversely collets allow a little more distance between mill table and the cutter. I have both for that reason. On my drill mill I tend to use collets. On my 9x42 I usually use an end mill holder. Both are R8. I recently purchased an ER40 collet set with R8. I may use it on the 9x42 since I can change cutters without having to climb on a step to work on the drawbar. ------- Date: Mon, 26 Dec 2005 11:46:46 +0000 From: Tony Jeffree Subject: Re: cutting fluids & cnc lathe questions [taigtools] NOTE TO FILE: This one message is about small lathe carbide cutters. At 10:27 26/12/2005, you wrote: >These days I always use carbide insert bits similar to these >http://www.sherline.com/2256pg.htm > or have a look at >http://www.chronos.ltd.uk/acatalog/ >lathe tools section , the Glanze CCMT insert types have been getting >good press here. I also tend to use indexable carbide - CCMT 0602 IIRC - which you can get holders for in 6mm or 1/4" shank. They work very well for me. Interestingly these are positive rake cutters but nonetheless work nicely with brass in my experience. Regards, Tony ------- NOTE TO FILE: Naturally if you are reading this file with the intent of learning about lathe tools and their cutters, you will also want to read the "Threading" file here. It will also be useful to learn more about single point cutters (for use on the lathe) in the "Shaper Bits and Toolholders" file where single point cutters are also used. In many instances the same cutter or holder can be used on both lathe AND shaper. ------- Re: Headstock alignment [THREAD BECOMES shear grind AFTER THIS MSG] Posted by: "n8as1x~xxaol.com" n8as1x~xxaol.com Date: Sat Sep 30, 2006 10:26 am (PDT) [atlas_craftsman] yellowhousejakex~xxyahoo.com writes: > What is a shear grind? My info shows the radius but > doesn't mention a shear grind. tough to describe , but will try ....if u take a round nose bit(wide , maybe 3 in radius) w/ a little BACK rake only, & end clearance, & rotate it 60deg to the left ,that is it .....problem is, u have to grind it so u can hold it at that angle in ur toolpost ...that means starting to grind while the corners of the bit are somewhat vertical, not holding it flat at the wheel ...when u put the tool to the work ,u have a steep negative rake (actually going uphill to the right ...this w/ the wide rounding of the edge SHEARS the metal off at an angle wide enuf to clear the feed rings ... sorry , cant send pics ...too ignorant , ...worst case , send me a SASE padded envelope .& i will grind u one .. best wishes docn8as ------- Re: shear grind Posted by: "jerdal" jerdalx~xxbrick.net Date: Sat Sep 30, 2006 7:45 pm (PDT) What I do is to grind a bit like the following... When it is in the holder and ready to cut, there is a cutting edge on the left side. From that side it slopes down to the right relatively steeply, at least 30 degrees off horizontal, or as much more as you want. The steeper it is, the easier it cuts, but the more it wants to pull into the work, and the weaker the edge. I do not put much radius on the "front left" corner. Just enough to keep it from breaking off, basically a very slight visible radius. Maybe only 10 or 20 thou.... The only "rake" to the tool top is left to right. I do relieve the vertical side at left a few degrees, and the "front" surface (end owards work as you look at it when mounted) also. Any angle for chip clearance I do with the holder. There is no significant cutting edge on the front surface, and I may even relieve it so that the front surface slightly recedes from the work as you go from left to right. A variation is a similar item with a round groove ground in the top, so that he left edge of the groove forms the cutting edge. This really peels off material, but forms a long curl, which can be an issue. For some reason, most people grind bits with large corner radii or angles etc, so that the cutting force is at least partly at 90 degrees to the axis of the work, pushing the tool outwards and the work in. This leads to spring in the work, and other troubles. I think it is a holdover from modern very heavy machines, and heavy roughing cuts. I don't think it is helpful with lighter lower powered machines in the home workshop. If you grind as above, and cut with an edge nearly at right angles to the work, the force is mostly along the axis of the workpiece, and you get very little spring. Then also, the larger rake angle across the tool reduces cutting force. Between the two effects, you should be able to take off a depth of cut over 1/8 inch on most any 10" lathe and mild steel. How fast a feed you can use will depend on the lathe power. I agree that if you use the right radius for the "front left" corner, you can adjust the smoothness of the finished surface. But since with a larger depth of cut, the feed is low, that isn't usually a problem. JT ------- Re: shear grind Posted by: "n8as1x~xxaol.com" n8as1x~xxaol.com Date: Sun Oct 1, 2006 10:06 pm (PDT) jerdalx~xxbrick.net writes: >> What I do is to grind a bit like the following...When it is When it is in the holder and ready to cut, there is a cutting edge on the left side. From that side it slopes down to the right relatively steeply, at least 30 degrees off horizontal, or as much more as you want. The steeper it is, the easier it cuts, but the more it wants to pull into the work, and the weaker the edge. << an excellent grind & the one i prefer for serious stock removal... the "shear grind "that i earlier described, probably rather poorly , is strictly a finish bit for .005 or less doc...,actually taking a scrape cut w/ a large radius angled upwards from left to right at abt.60 deg . to the horizontal(clearance behind the edge) ...this gives severe neg. rake as it forces the chip up hill...for most purposes ,the finish from this bit , w/ some lard oil/bacon grease, eliminates polishing/grinding on 1018 .....works great on shaper too , which is where it came from... shaper /planer...... ..when using the turret /& Q.C. holders for H.S. tooling, getting the rake by grinding a groove behind the cutting edge,gradually deepening to the right may be the most economical way to grind a roughing bit ...& while on the subject, a " dutch nose",/ "shovel nose" bit put to the work as near flat(straighty in) as one can stand w/out chatter also does a great job of providing a smooth finish w/ cuts under .005 ,as well as shoulder cuts, & serious facing IN (only in) cuts....this is a wide flat end ( just abt bit size w/ end clearance & side relief as it tapers back slightly for 3/8 inch or so.on both sides.grind in moderate back rake (no side rake)... very handy grind ... best wishes docn8as ------- [atlas_craftsman -- a message about Atlas collets in another discussion] Re: Late Model atlas/chraftsman 12X36 Cabinett model question Posted by: "jerdal" jerdalx~xxbrick.net Date: Sat Feb 10, 2007 9:59 pm ((PST)) > Atlas and South Bend used 3c collets for their closers,I > happened to find a SB closer at a garage sale and shortened the tube > and it works just fine. Atlas (and Logan) used 3AT as factory stock type....., although you could get others for Logan. SB used the 3C. But any MT3 spindle will fit a 3C OR a 3AT closer. You can make or get a 3C instead of the 3AT. Same capacity, generally more plentiful, and not so many rabid Atlas folks who "know" that 3AT is the only one that works, who'll outbid you. They all "know" 3C is "wrong", and won't fight for it. JT ------- Re: Bower machine 3AT collet chuck/adapter [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: "Brett Jones" brettx~xx5foot2.com Date: Sun Feb 11, 2007 12:16 am ((PST)) Archie wrote: > I was wondering if anyone has tried the 3AT collet chuck that bower > machine sells, if so what is your impression. It says that it doesn't > need a drawbar but It doesn't say how it works etc..... > I have a 12 X 36 atlas commercial model lathe If you're going to look into collet chucks, go with a 5C collet chuck, not the 3AT. You'll have a larger size range and a much more common collet size. The commonality means lower prices for new collets and lots of good used tooling available. The biggest advantage to the collet chuck instead of the collet and drawbar system is that you're able to use the full ID of the spindle. If you run 3AT or 3C collets within the spindle you're limited to 1/2" material. Another cool collet option is the ER collet. The ER collets allow you to clamp down on a larger size range within the rated size than does the 5C style collet. I think it's .030 over and under the collets' rated size. Tallgrass tools has an adapter kit, or completed part for use with ER32 collets. http://tallgrasstools.com/ER-32ColletKit.html I'm leaning in this direction pretty strongly but with the ER40 size. I plan on using the collets on my X3 mill and on a Logan lathe I own. I rather like the idea of having one set of good collets to use on all the machines in the shop. ------- Re: Collet diference [taigtools] Posted by: "Lester Caine" lscesx~xxbtconnect.com Date: Sun Mar 4, 2007 3:51 am ((PST)) Nicholas Carter and Felice Luftschein wrote: >The ER16 collets Taig sells are imports. You can use any ER16 collet, >from any supplier, they are all made (presumably) to the same standards. Almost ;) While the outside dimensions are fixed, there are a few variations in the way the slots are machined, and how large the clearance is in the middle. One of the advantages of the ER16 collet over the old smaller collet is the much longer length of contact area, but the length of contact area on the imports can be a bit variable, with some only using half the collet length. This is so that they do not hve to flex too much. Below about 3mm you need a 0.5mm step size, as the 3mm may not hold a 2.1mm drill, and you should not be able to push that into the 2mm collet, so a 2.5 and 1.5mm sizes may be needed. There are some sets that do not include these, and opt to make the collet more flexible, resulting in the shorter clamping area. Lester Caine - G8HFL L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://home.lsces.co.uk Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://home.lsces.co.uk/ModelEngineersDigitalWorkshop/ ------- 5% cobalt to cut brass? [sherline] Posted by: "Charles Fox" cafox513x~xxgte.net Date: Mon Jul 16, 2007 5:17 am ((PDT)) I have two questionable tool blanks, 1/4 x 1/4, with 5% cobalt rather than strict HSS -- if there's any difference. I'm thinking of grinding them specifically for brass. Is there anything I should be aware of, specially? Can I grind them on my regular grinding wheel (no, I don't know what it is but it does a fine job on HSS)? Anything else? ------- Re: 5% cobalt to cut brass? Posted by: "Keith Green" ksggx~xxtelus.net Date: Mon Jul 16, 2007 5:43 am ((PDT)) Not much difference. Just lasts longer in the cut. Might appear a tad harder to grind, depending on the grade of your wheel. Same rules apply: Keep it cool. Angles and methods of grinding to drill brass will be the same. Keith ------- Brazed carbide-tipped tools [sherline] Posted by: "Charles Fox" cafox513x~xxgte.net Date: Wed Jul 18, 2007 5:52 am ((PDT)) Are those tools tungsten carbide? In other words, do I have to get a different grinding wheel to sharpen them? ------- Re: Brazed carbide-tipped tools Posted by: "Frank Presley" fpres61x~xxyahoo.com Date: Wed Jul 18, 2007 6:06 am ((PDT)) Hi Charles: Most people don't bother trying to sharpen them. They just buy new and replace. They can be sharpened with what is known as a green wheel. Don't waste your money on the cheap carbide tools. They are too soft and fragile. Frank ------- Re: Brazed carbide-tipped tools Posted by: "Martin Dobbins" trainnutzx~xxyahoo.com Date: Wed Jul 18, 2007 6:37 am ((PDT)) There's a wide variety of brazed carbide tools available if you google it, and some sites don't tell you the manufacturer or country of origin (surprise, surprise!). Cheap imports often aren't worth the trouble, so stay away from them. J&L Industrial's price for Micro 100 is around $10, is that about right for US made tools from other manufacturers in this size? Martin ------- Re: Brazed carbide-tipped tools Posted by: "Marcus" implmexx~xxaxionet.com Date: Wed Jul 18, 2007 8:56 am ((PDT)) Hi Frank: I've tried green silicon carbide wheels for carbide...they're hopeless. Anyone who wants to grind carbide tools needs to buy diamond wheels if they want to achieve anything worthwhile. Diamond wheels are very expensive, but will last a very long time too, so they're a worthwhile investment. Personally, I'm not a fan of throwing away brazed carbide tools as soon as they get dull; to my mind, the ability to grind cutting tools is a basic skill that should be mastered by anyone who wants to have the freedom to make what they want, when they want. The principles are simple, the techniques are readily acquired with patience and practice, and the costs are modest compared to tossing out boxes of barely used tooling and having your job grind to a halt everytime a drill or lathe tool or endmill gets dull. Also, custom cutters can be easily made to a high standard of quality without elaborate gear, especially in HSS, and this ability is sooo useful once you've got it. On this topic, I respectfully have to disagree with Jerry Kieffer and other fans of throwaway tooling. Although it's true that you can do 90% of straightforward turning with nothing more than a right hand brazed carbide tool, you'll never find all of what you need in a catalogue if you want to do anything even a little bit advanced, and I think catalogue dependency is a poor habit to get into, especially for a hobbyist with limited finances and a relative abundance of time. Cheers Marcus ------- Re: Brazed carbide-tipped tools Posted by: "n2562001" jlkiefferx~xxcharter.net Date: Wed Jul 18, 2007 10:19 am ((PDT)) Marcus: We each have and are entitled to our own opinions that I suspect are mostly based on what we do. First I have never suggested throwing away used, dull or damaged tooling. I think I still have the first tool I ever used. They are of course used for various purposes because of the grinding equipment I have acquired over the years. However in my case as a hobbyist, it is unlikely my grinding equipment will ever actually pay for its self even though I would never give it up. Second my suggestions are directed at those who are starting out in this hobby and many times have little idea of what is available. A catalog will give ideas not only for purchase but for those who wish to make their own items who have no idea where to start. What can be done with simple tools such as an AR-4, E-4, Boring Bar and a cutoff tool is far beyond what most will ever do. Personal recent examples include a couple of scale Harley Engines, Clock/watch movement and a 1/8th scale John Deere Tractor with all items fully functional including Guages. No other lathe tools other than listed above were used or required. If they would have been I also have accumulated the billion dollars worth of grinding equipment that we both have and could do whatever was required. When making suggestions I consider where I was When I started. I try to suggest only solid, simple workable solutions that I HAVE ALREADY performed that make life as simple as possible. As you become experienced you will have plenty of time to become sophisticated. I suspect that if you and I were to walk into our shops today with only the knowledge we started with we would be in trouble. I suspect we would be standing there with our thumbs up our butt and have no idea what was going on even if it was explained to us. In my case I would have needed more than catolog`s just to understand what was explained. Jerry Kieffer ------- Re: Brazed carbide-tipped tools Posted by: "Marcus" implmexx~xxaxionet.com Date: Thu Jul 19, 2007 10:26 am ((PDT)) Hi Jerry: While I certainly respect your position, I still can't wrap my head around the notion that a single point cutting tool whether brazed carbide or anything else should be replaced when it gets dull, rather than being resharpened, even by a beginner. I can easily see a beginner chipping the corners off a half a dozen carbide tools before he or she gets the hang of turning, and a misadventure can happen to anyone which becomes at least inconvenient when you don't have a replacement, and never learned the skills to fix it. I've run a single Micro 100 carbide tool for a month of 8 hour days of hard turning in tool steel at 52 Rockwell, and sharpened it probably a hundred times during its life, getting miles and miles of extra use out of my fifteen dollar purchase for the price of 30 seconds in front of the bench grinder and a twenty year old diamond wheel. It's really not difficult to do. Granted, it's a smaller more gentle learning curve for a novice to just be able to take his cutting tool right out of the box and begin making chips, but an excessive dependence on "taking it out of the box" leads to unnecessary expense and limitation of useful skills in my opinion. Again, I have to stress that it doesn't take a whole army of specialized machine tools and a Druid's degree to enjoy the advantages of being able to roll your own. Yes I do it too, when time presses and when the cost of grinding a cutter is excessive compared to buying off the shelf, but I can make what I want, whenever I want, with nothing more than a bench grinder and a Dremel and a HSS blank. Of course I'd never suggest that a beginner standing in front of the lathe for the first time should be forced to grind a complex form tool before he ever turns on the machine, and to teach the novice about making chips on the lathe is perfectly reasonably accomplished by grabbing a pre-made tool and demonstrating with that. But tool grinding is still an important part of the skill set, and by downplaying its usefulness or implying that it's obsolete, I think we run the risk of degrading the abilities that our audience can rise to. I've seen this happen in my trade...the place where I used to work has no old toolmakers left; they've all been replaced by CNC button pushers, and no-one is left who can grind a custom engraving or milling cutter. It now takes a purchase order and a two week wait to accomplish the simplest of tasks, and this is a shop that even has all the necessary gear standing right there. These are supposed to be skilled guys.....I think it's nuts!! So, I've had my rant...my apologies if I've trod on toes. Cheers Marcus ------- Re: Brazed carbide-tipped tools Posted by: "Ian Newman" ian_newx~xxyahoo.com Date: Wed Jul 18, 2007 10:19 am ((PDT)) Charles, I agree with Frank's comment about the inherent weakness in the carbide tips - they will crumble if you take light cuts as the edge is not adequately supported by the body of the tool. They are designed for taking heavy cuts and the optimum depth of cut requires more power than a small lathe can deliver. Ian ------- Re: Brazed carbide-tipped tools Posted by: "Frank Presley" fpres61x~xxyahoo.com Date: Wed Jul 18, 2007 5:40 pm ((PDT)) Hello Marcus, I was trying to help out Charles as he was having a problem. I am also not a fan of throw away tools, but accept the idea that for some in their own circumstances it may be the better answer for them. I tried the cheap carbide bits when I first started a short while ago and found them to be a waste of money. There is no comparison between the cheap bits and the Micro 100 bits that I tried after Jerry G. suggested them to Charles awhile back. They are great tools. Another example of you get what you pay for. They are not that much more expensive nor are they as fragile. I am still working on my grinding of HSS bits. It takes a little practice. I will look into the diamond wheels you mentioned. Best regards, Frank ------- Re: Brazed carbide-tipped tools Posted by: "Marcus" implmexx~xxaxionet.com Date: Thu Jul 19, 2007 10:35 am ((PDT)) Hi Ian: As you've no doubt discovered, carbide is really intolerant to abuse, and can be ruined by the tiniest of misadventures. Carbide is very brittle...it does not tolerate shear or tension loading well at all, and will chip if you look at it wrong. But it is a marvellous material when loaded in compression and protected from shock, and is certainly useable on a small lathe with light cuts. The secret is to never allow the point of the tool to drag backwards over the workpiece or anything else, and to sharpen or replace as soon as the cutting edge deteriorates. HSS, on the other hand, will withstand all kinds of rough handling in that regard, and will tolerate the shock of interrupted cuts and accidentally flipping the lathe in reverse and misaligned holes that are being reamed and on and on. Carbide requires more care, but works very well, even on a Sherline taking a 0.001" cut. Cheers Marcus ------- Re: Collet types [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: "Steve" skadsmx~xxpeoplepc.com Date: Wed Jan 23, 2008 4:33 am ((PST)) indianfourriderx~xxyahoo.com on Tue Jan 22, 2008wrote: >Can someone out there enlighten me on the differences between 3C, 3AT >and ER collets? What are the advantages/disadvantages of each? I have a >late model 12x36 with the 1.5x8 3MT spindle. Thanks! 3AT - the ones that came with Atlas. Don't fit the spindle directly, need an adapter. If you have an adapter, good, if you don't, not sure where you can get one besides ebay. Capacity up to 1/2" and you can feed stock through them. Hard to find. Not sure if anyone is making them, but you can find used and occasionally NOS (I got some 32nd sizes to fill out my set from www.plazamachinery.com). 3C - Came with other lathes, like South Bend. Also don't fit the spindle directly, need an adapter. You can get a new adapter from several sources, including www.littlemachineshop.com. Capacity up to 1/2" (although I have seen some that were either a 32nd or a 64th larger). You can feed stock through them. More plentiful than 3AT. Can buy new ones as well as used. If you have no collets or adapter, this may be an easier route to take. ER. Come in several sizes, like ER20, ER40. You install them with a morse\ taper arbor. Depending on the series you get, capacity can be much larger than 3AT/3C. More readily available. Also each collet can hold a wider range, as they open/close more than a standard collet. Disadvantage: can't pass stock through them. If you are working on small parts, but not long ones, these can have an advantage. One you did not mention is morse taper. You can get 3MT collets which will fit directly in your spindle. These are not self releasing, so you may have to tap them out. You will need to make a drawbar, but it's a standard thread. Also, can't feed stock through. Advantage: MT3 can go up to 3/4". Another one is 5C. "Hold it", you say, "5C can't fit in my spindle". You can get a collet chuck that fits on your spindle like a jaw chuck and holds 5C collets. Through hole capacity up to the size of the spindle hole, collets up to 1-1/8". Disadvantage: overhang. May not be as rigid as a collet directly in the spindle. If you need to feed 3/4" stock though the spindle, this may be your only choice. What do I have? Almost complete set of 3AT plus MT3, so I can do up to 1/2" with through capability and up to 3/4" without. Steve -------- Re: Collet types Posted by: "danaz.chandler" djnx~xxieee.org Date: Wed Jan 23, 2008 7:39 am ((PST)) One thing to note about ER collets... TallGrass tools offers an ER-30 adapter that threads onto the Atlas spindle. This allows long stock to pass thru the spindle and collet. I had them make me the same thing, but ER-40 sized also. Dan in Chandler, AZ ------- Re: Collet types Posted by: "jake09305" jake09305x~xxbellsouth.net Date: Wed Jan 23, 2008 7:45 am ((PST)) While on the subject of collets...mostly the discussion has centered on the "draw in" type of collet. These are drawn into a "nose" or adapter designed especially for that collet by a threaded draw bar or hollow tube. As the collet moves into the spindle under the pull of the draw bar, it pulls the stock with it. This can add mysterious variations in the dimensions of finished work if not taken into to effect and planned for. On the topic of adapters for tapered spindles...you can buy a commercially made center for your spindle that is not hardened; put this in the spindle and with a boring bar carefully turn a hole through to match the shape of your collets. Carefully mark the "adapter" you have made so it can be re-inserted in the spindle in exactly the same place every time. All this requires some planning, so before you start make sure all this will fit your machine, tapers, and spindle. If you are going to occasionally remove this adapter, plan how, now! Jake ------- Re: Collet types Posted by: "Russ Kepler" russx~xxkepler-eng.com Date: Wed Jan 23, 2008 8:13 am ((PST)) Consider also a 5C chuck on the spindle nose. There are several to chose from, the one I have is a Bison brand out of Poland and is quite nice. The only issue I have with them is that you have to turn the scroll quite a bit to close it, so changing collets a lot can take a lot of turning. One potential problem that I haven't see if the increase in stickout from the spindle, this could make it more prone to chatter but it's not something I've seen. The advantages are that 5C collets are common and (relatively) cheap. You can get round, hex, square, rectangular, even blank ones for machining. Even if the Atlas spindle is limited in diameter, there's at least some depth for work through the chuck. ------- Re: Collet types Posted by: "PeterH5322" peterh5322x~xxrattlebrain.com Date: Wed Jan 23, 2008 10:30 am ((PST)) 3AT - perhaps not Atlas, but generally of the "3" size, where such sizes are indicative of the capacity in quarters of an inch (see Cataract numbering system, below). 3C - Cataract (Hardinge Brothers) - 3/4" capacity - small toolroom and bench lathe applications (3C = three quarters) 4C - Cataract (Hardinge Brothers) - 1" capacity - vertical mill applications (4C = four quarters) 5C - Cataract (Hardinge Brothers) - 1-1/4" capacity (practicalities limit this to about 1-1/16" or 1-1/8") - Horizontal mill applications, and many lathe spindle applications (5C = five quarters) 22C - an absolutely HUGE version of Cataract collet ER - European pattern, intended for milling applications, but also useful for some lathe spindle applications particularly when used with a shop-made chuck and a factory-made nut and nut wrench - double tapered, front and rear - ejection ring whereby the collet nut withdraws and then ejects the collet 2J - J means Sjogren (pronounced SHOW-grin), the name of the designer of the first practical and widely used collet chuck in about 1929, the Sjogren "Speed-Chuck", later, and for many decades, called the Hardinge-Sjogren "Speed-Chuck", and now called the ATS-Sjogren "Speed-Chuck" - 2J has a capacity of 1-3/8" - 2J is the most popular collet on certain toolroom lathes where the spindle doesn't have a 5C taper, but instead has a Jarno taper 3J - a larger version of Sjogren collet 22J - an absolutely HUGE version of Sjogren collet Of all the collet types, the most versatile, and the best supported is the 5C, but there are many cases where 1-1/16" is too limiting and the 1-3/8" capacity of the 2J is the deciding factor. 2J is almost as well supported as the 5C, with emergency, hex and square collets being made, and also the same in metric sizes. 2J "Speed-Chucks" are made in a small handwheel version, the 2A, and which is rated for a maximum of 4,000 rpm ------- Re: Collet types Posted by: "William Abernathy" williamx~xxinch.com Date: Wed Jan 23, 2008 10:41 am ((PST)) You don't need a Morse fitting to mount ER collets. You CAN build your own collet holder (or buy a kit from Tallgrass tools) that allows you to pass work through the spindle. I made my own ER-32 holder/nut combo. You can too. For ER-series disadvantages, I would only list the inability to find square- or hex-profile work. Also, you cannot make machinable "emergency" fixtures; however, since each collet has a much wider grip range than a 5-C, such emergencies tend to be rarer (i.e., if you don't have an n/32nd collet, it's not a big deal-- go to the next size up and torque down the ER collet a little harder.) It's a great system, and you can use them on your mill, too! William A ------- Re: Collet types Posted by: "n8as1x~xxaol.com" Date: Wed Jan 23, 2008 6:54 pm ((PST)) > 3AT - perhaps not Atlas, but generally of the "3" size, where such > sizes are indicative of the capacity in quarters of an inch (see > Cataract numbering system, below). maybe so ...but i have yet to see or hear of a larger collet than 1/2 inch in 3 AT ..i bored one of mine out to 5/8 , but maybe 3/4 wud near take out the body of the collet ?????....have to go down into shop & check that ......i have a few w/large discs on the end for shallow boring for needed much larger sizes (2 -3 in , forget now the term for them , ) i have a set of hardinge 1 J collets ...very similar to 5 C , IIRC , up to 1 1/16".....perhaps they were used in leblond lathes????...do you know what their initial usage was ? tnx docn8as ------- Re: Collet types Posted by: "PeterH5322" peterh5322x~xxrattlebrain.com Date: Wed Jan 23, 2008 7:17 pm ((PST)) The J suffix is due to Sjogren. Made by Hardinge up to a few years ago. The 2J "Speed Chucks" are usually found on machines with a D1-3" CamLock spindle, although the "Speed-Chucks" for 2J were made in flat back, screw, L and A. A 2J can cover 1-3/8". ------- Re: keyseat cutters [taigtools] Posted by: "Michael Fagan" woodworker88x~xxgmail.com Date: Mon Feb 25, 2008 9:32 pm ((PST)) Feb 25, 2008, Greg McFadden wrote: > so how about some sources that I can procure them from? Pretty much any industrial supply under "Slitting and Slotting Saws", some of my favorites come from Niagara Cutter: http://www.niagaracutter.com/millingcutters/saws.html Sherline has some relatively inexpensive ones in common sizes: http://www.sherline.com/3065inst.htm I don't think their arbor is compatible with the Taig, but if you get the proper holder (it needs to match the slitting saws which have 1/2" center holes) the saws will work fine. They're probably a better match for the Taig compared to the larger 1" center holes on many common saws. For keyseat cutters, this place seems to have a good selection: http://www.icscuttingtools.com/catalog/page_283.pdf I got most of mine from a local machine tool supply that was going out of business. They are listed by an American National Standard number, I use a #406 for most of the stuff I do. Their chart shows that as being 3/4" OD. On mine, made by Keo Cutter, the shank is necked down in a fillet for about 1/4" right above the cutter body. They're designed for reaching the centers of round shafts, thus the unusual shape. Here's the J&L Industrial page for all keyseat cutters made by Keo http://www.jlindustrial.com/CGI/JISRCH?N=4294966386+3963 As far as shanks for slitting and sawing saws, here are two J&L ones, which are identical to those offered by McMaster, MSC, Enco, and others: http://www.jlindustrial.com/5CZ-09345C/SEARCH:KEYWORD/product.html for a 1/2" shank, 1/2"-1" inside hole diameters; and http://www.jlindustrial.com/CNT-09350A/SEARCH:KEYWORD/product.html for a 1/2" shank, 3/8" center hole Let me know if this helps. Michael ------- Re: keyseat cutters Posted by: "Greg McFadden" greg.mcfaddenx~xxgmail.com Date: Mon Feb 25, 2008 9:37 pm ((PST)) Thanks, but unfortunately, all of those have shank diameters that are larger than the 3/8" that I can use. Greg ------- Re: keyseat cutters Posted by: "Michael Fagan" woodworker88x~xxgmail.com Date: Mon Feb 25, 2008 9:43 pm ((PST)) You could get Taig's own #1110 which screws directly onto the spindle, or their #1110ER, which is a 3/8" shank version for use in a collet. http://www.taigtools.com/c1110.html or from Nick Carter ------- Cutter grinder [taigtools] Posted by: "scuffer52" bigmillerx~xxshaw.ca Date: Thu Jun 5, 2008 2:02 pm ((PDT)) I would like to find a unit to sharpen 'just' the tips of 15 degree, (cone shaped/V-tip) engraving cutters which have a .005 inch tip. Accuracy is a must because I mill very small models. Manual sharpening is not an option. Commercial tool bit grinders are overkill. Does anyone know of a small affordable machine that is capable of sharpening this type of cutter accurately? ...or is there an attachment for a small lathe or mill that is being produced. I wish Taig or Sherline had something?? Everyone in the world doing small machining such as engraving, jewelry, circuit boards etc.(and that'a a lot of people/customers) use these cutters and need to have them sharpened regularly which makes me think someone, somewhere must be producing a small unit for this purpose?? I don't want to build a Quorn, Kennet, Tinker etc.....I would just like to purchase a unit that lets me quickly retip in my shop. A small unit in the $300- $400 range that sharpens just conical shaped cutters would probably fly out the door. Any and all suggestions appreciated. Thanks, Greg ------- Re: Cutter grinder Posted by: "Roy" rx~xxshred2.net Date: Thu Jun 5, 2008 2:31 pm ((PDT)) There's a Chinese knockoff of the Deckel that's around $600 IIRC http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=45707 ------- Re: Cutter grinder Posted by: "Tony Jeffree" tonyx~xxjeffree.co.uk Date: Fri Jun 6, 2008 12:15 am ((PDT)) Greg - I have a set of Taig's grinding wheels/arbors, a conventional cup wheel, and also a small diamond cup wheel that I have fitted with Taig blank arbors. I use them for precision grinding operations on my Taig lathe. You can see an example of the cup wheel in use in my article here (first 4 photos): http://www.jeffree.co.uk/Pages/multi-tooth-gear-cutter.htm Have you considered that kind of approach? Should be possible to make yourself a purpose-built jig that would allow you to grind these cutters accurately. That would give you a very inexpensive solution, and one that you could refine to exactly fit the need. If you need to do it a lot, a second Taig lathe (or more likely, treat yourself to a new one and use the old one) dedicated to that use would probably work out cheaper than the commercial cutter/grinders. Regards, Tony ------- Re: Cutter grinder Posted by: "Steve Blackmore" stevex~xxpilotltd.net Date: Fri Jun 6, 2008 12:17 am ((PDT)) >Commercial tool bit grinders are overkill. 'Fraid not. If you look carefully at the design of a commercial engraving cutter, you'll see they are quite complex to grind and commercial tool and cutter grinders are about the only thing that will do one correctly. I have a commercial Dowling engraver cutter grinder; you really need two wheels, a grinder for roughing and a diamond wheel for finishing and sharpening. Even with that, it's not easy to get the crutch angle, clearance and tip sizes just right and takes some setting up, practice and a microscope :) Often easier and cheaper to send them to an engraver's supply house and let them sharpen them. Steve Blackmore ------- Re: Cutter grinder Posted by: "Steve Blackmore" stevex~xxpilotltd.net Date: Fri Jun 6, 2008 12:34 am ((PDT)) > Have you considered that kind of approach? Should be possible to make > yourself a purpose-built jig that would allow you to grind these > cutters accurately. Hi Tony - that jig would have to have precision adjustment in all three axes and allow the tool to be rotated off centre axially and also rotated vertically whilst grinding too. You've just made a tool and cutter grinder :) Steve Blackmore ------- Re: Cutter grinder Posted by: "Tony Jeffree" tonyx~xxjeffree.co.uk Date: Fri Jun 6, 2008 12:40 am ((PDT)) > You've just made a tool and cutter grinder :) Still a cheaper solution than a commercial one (or a Quorn for that matter) ;-) Regards, Tony ------- Re: Cutter grinder Posted by: "Clive Foster" clive_fosterx~xxtalk21.com Date: Fri Jun 6, 2008 6:12 am ((PDT)) Steve: How much of the precision setting and adjustment capability of a proper cutter grinder is needed for sharpening any specific cutter? Obviously a commercial machine needs sufficient adjustment capability to cover pretty much any cutter in a market segment big enough to make it worthwhile building and selling the machines. However a home shop or fairly specialist small commercial user will use only a limited number of sizes and shapes of cutters so is it practical to consider cutter specific jigs for each of the cutters you actually use? As I see it the important things are: 1) to get the appropriate motion of the cutter as it passes the grinding wheel to achieve the correct shape; 2) to get the necessary depth of cut to sharpen the cutter. Assuming you have some means of mounting and turning the grinding wheel(s) these objectives should be achievable with a two axis screw slide to set the position, a rotating and pivot thingy to get the grinding movements, cutter specific holders to fit the thingy and appropriately angled spacers to ensure that the grinding is done at the correct angles. No doubt it can be done more simply if suitable lateral thinking is applied. Obviously at some point the proliferation of components to cover a wide range of cutters becomes more inconvenient than re-setting a proper tool and cutter grinder as required. After learning how to use it and produce repeatable results. However, for the occasional user, it's true that every adjustment provides another opportunity to get it wrong. Especially when peering through microscopes whilst trying to remember exactly what the edge should look like is involved. Mechanical jigs should make it possible to get the right shape each time with setting up adjustments pretty much limited to depth of cut and, possibly centre height. In general it's notoriously difficult to reproduce best cutting shape for engraving cutters by simple means but, in the home shop at least, I suspect that a modest performance reduction from a non-optimal cutter shape would be an acceptable trade-off for rapid, mechanically precise, re-sharpening. I'm soon to be sorting out and getting running my somewhat abused Clarkson T&C grinder so the question of whether to settle for a few "near enuf" mechanical jigs or learn to use it properly is moot. Clive ------- Re: Cutter grinder Posted by: "Roy" rx~xxshred2.net Date: Fri Jun 6, 2008 6:29 am ((PDT)) Clive makes good points. I've got a 1950's commercial T&C grinder and it doesn't have attachments or an documented way to do conical point cutters. I've made small single-lip hex-cutters on it (grind some tool steel to look like a hex key on the end, split the point through two vertexes and knock down the remaining non-cutting vertexes -- they work well for milling on thin material so it doesn't lift) and those are easily doable with an indexing jig, but I bet tiny sizes and points may be too fragile. The hard bit with the conical points is relieving everything behind the cutting edge -- there's probably a trick there with off-center ground cones and/or indexing stops for the last grind operation so it doesn't quite get the cutting edge, but I've not delved deeply enough into it. ------- Re: Cutter grinder Posted by: "Steve Blackmore" stevex~xxpilotltd.net Date: Fri Jun 6, 2008 12:32 pm ((PDT)) >How much of the precision setting and adjustment capability of a >proper cutter grinder is needed for sharpening any specific cutter? Quite a lot!! For example I have cutters that do 1, 5, 7, 10, 15 thou wide cuts. If you just want to hack a groove, hand grind three angled flats (three sided pyramid) on some HSS and stone the end at an angle. That will cut a groove. But if you want a burr free 5 thou wide line in something, your tool better be sharp, and accurately ground. You need to think very carefully about the geometry of an engraving cutter, it's not as simple as you may first think. For a start the center of the cutting edge is not on the axial center of the tool ;) Have a look here: http://www.pilotltd.net/engraving.htm Study the tip drawing carefully. I have both the Dowling and Deckel manuals, and they both use the same method of sharpening. The tool is at 3 different angles to the wheel and is rotated off its center and tilted as it rotates, which grinds in a spiral effect. The clearance angle should be designed for the material but the tip side relief and back relief aren't as critical. Again, depends whether you want to casually hack grooves, or engrave ;) Steve Blackmore ------- Re: Sharpening Lathe Tool Bits? [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: "Bruce Koch" tkd_master38x~xxyahoo.com Date: Fri Jun 20, 2008 9:31 am ((PDT)) Hey Gang: One of the best tools for holding HSS for grinding is a t handle tap wrench. Keeps the steel steady and prevents burned fingers. Bruce ------- Re: Sharpening Lathe Tool Bits? Posted by: "n8as1x~xxaol.com" Date: Fri Jun 20, 2008 1:22 pm ((PDT)) In a message dated 6/20/2008, pierredekatx~xxyahoo.com writes: >But I can easily spend an hour sharpening a bit this way, and I was >wondering if anybody has any tips for doing it better or faster or >whatever. each has his own ways , but i sharpen a new 5/16 bit in under 5 minutes..i am plenty old , but the last time i worked in an industrial environment was 1945.....u simply need to grind more bits & be less critical of perfection .....u carve an elephant by removing all that doesn't look like an elephant... i am sure someone else has a better way, BUT ..i use a cheap 60 grit wheel (i have two hi grade coarse stones i will gladly sell for 1/2 of what i pd....they dont break down , grind hot & slo ....cant find a 24/36 grit wheel for coarse right now ...go to flea mkt this weekend & see what's around....anyway, i grind the cutting angle first, paying attention to side clearance ...then put on the front clearance & redo the sides ...u cut put the front on first, but why grind the whole width? easier for me to adjust the cutting angle ...now grind in the back & side rake at the same time ...u r done grinding ...now grab a medium "india" 3/4 sq & stone the top of the cutting edge & the side clearance & put no more than a 1/32 radius on tip .30 sec max...probably 1/64 better, or ur cutting action will do it for u .......u most likely are too tentative....FWIW ....exact or anywhere NEAR xact angles "macht nichts" [GERMAN FOR DOESN'T MATTER] for home shop ....so u only get 5 minutes out of a grind instead of 7 minutes ...so what!!!!? u MUST have clearance...u NEED rake (except brass) each grade of steel, alum ,. brass has a different max efficiency of angles ....a home shop machines whatever garbage it finds CHEAPLY ...so u ALWAYS have angles that are not ideal for whatever piece of c---u are working on...& lots of times will need to run over to the grinder & change a cut angle, or rake for BETTER efficiency , NOIT maximum oput put ..... if it doesn't cut, take a good hard look & correct ..ususally lack of clearance, next insufficient rake for steel (more for most alum.) almost any front will cut if clearance & positive rack are there...may not cut for long or cut hard or chatter, but will cut ... using a 50 yr old craftsman 1/3 hp 6 in grinder(on the 3rd switch) ..back when 1/3 hp really meant that .....check ur amperage when rating ur grinder, the retailers sure don't ...... "developed Horse power" = sales garbage... i meant this to be helpful ...pls take it in that light ... best wishes docn8as -------- Re: Sharpening Lathe Tool Bits? Posted by: "catboat15x~xxaol.com" Date: Fri Jun 20, 2008 8:26 pm ((PDT)) When I grind my HSS tool bits I hold them in the "armstrong" bit holder. That larger mass of metal absorbs much of the heat from grinding. I just use the wheel that came on my cheap grinder, but touch up the cutting edge on an Arkansas fine stone by hand. I have seen posts on which wheel to use and of course ordinary wheels are useless for carbide. (But a carbide lathe bit makes a fine wheel dresser.) ------- Re: Sharpening Lathe Tool Bits? Posted by: "jerdalx~xxsbcglobal.net" Date: Sat Jun 21, 2008 5:17 am ((PDT)) > I have seen posts on which wheel to use and of course ordinary wheels > are useless for carbide. (But a carbide lathe bit makes a fine wheel > dresser.) You'd certainly THINK so, but I have found that isn't always true. I have a pink wheel on a grinder, and found that it wore down the old carbide lathe bit I intended to use as a dresser, without itself being noticeably affected. There are different grades of carbide, and that pink wheel evidently was able to cut the grade I had.... JT -------- Making Milling cutters. Course 101 please? [sherline] Posted by: "Greg Procter" procterx~xxihug.co.nz Date: Wed Jul 9, 2008 3:15 pm ((PDT)) Hi, I need to make a milling cutter (form tool) to mill a representation of corrugated iron into the surface of plastic in 1/24 scale. The (New Zealand) form is a 3" repeating pattern 7/8" thick with 3/4" radii. The cutter will scale to .3125"+ diameter and 0.044" deep. While I'm sure as an amateur I can bodge a D cutter to shape, it struck me that some of you blokes actually know how to do this sort of job in a professional manner and I could learn from you how to do the job properly just by asking. Please, lead me from start to finish, incuding all the obvious bits. This might be a first job for my Sherline lathe in CNC form(?) Thanks, Greg.P. NZ ------- Re: Making Milling cutters. Course 101 please? Posted by: "Marcus" marcusx~xximplant-mechanix.com Date: Wed Jul 9, 2008 8:09 pm ((PDT)) Hi Greg: Here's a step by step. You will be making another D cutter for this job, and you have two choices before you even start: 1) Make your cutter so you can lay your sheet on the mill and cut one groove at a time. 2) Make your cutter like a saw and stand your workpiece on edge so you can cut many grooves in each pass. If you choose style #1, you need to turn your profile on the end of a tool steel blank (A2 or O1 will work well.) If the profile is small, I'll often just lay it out in CAD, and section it up into 0.005" slices, then interrogate the intersection points of the profile with the slices and make up a table of coordinates so I can simply move successively from reading to reading on the lathe and turn my profile that way. If you've got CNC, you can ignore all that. Now split your blank exactly in half on the mill. Stone the milled surface nice and smooth on the side that will be the cutting edge. Mark your cutting edge with a felt pen, making sure you cover the periphery for at least 1/16". Now take a parallel carbide bur in your handy Dremel, and hand relieve the cutter just behind the cutting edge, going as close as you dare to go without nipping into the edge. With a good light and a decent magnifier, you can easily trim within 0.005" if you are patient and have a light touch. Now hack away all the excess material all around the rest of the profile. Don't be shy...have at 'er with a bench grinder or a file and make sure the cutting edge is furthest away from the axis of rotation. Just make sure you don't go past the center point at the very tip of the cutter. Now harden the cutter using the protocol appropriate for the steel you've chosen. Last job is to take a very fine mounted abrasive point in the Dremel and just kiss the cutting edge using the flat you'd carved on (when you first relieved the cutter with the carbide bur) as your guide. Two things that will help you immensely for this step: 1) Get a good light and a good magnifier. 2) Dress the mounted point with an abrasive stick while it's running in the Dremel (a coarse grinding wheel will do in a pinch, but a dressing stick is better). You want the abrasive point to run absolutely dead nuts true (zero runout), and you want the abrasive grains to be knocked down a bit so the mounted point doesn't cut too aggressively. Stroke it gently, in the climb cutting direction until the shiny edge on the cutter just disappears...if you get the light just right you can see it easily. Stone over the flat face of the cutter with a fine India stone to knock off the bur left by the grinding step and then run a fine Arkansas stone over the edge to give it the last lick and be sure you've removed all the remnants of the bur. Take a test cut, and inspect the cut and the end of the cutter. If it's not cutting freely, it means you've missed a spot when you were relieving the cutter. There will be a blob or a smear or a shiny spot on the cutter to tell you where you need to relieve the cutter more. That's it...the saw is made exactly the same way, only the profile is oriented differently and you have to do more relieving. Cheers Marcus ------- Re: Making Milling cutters. Course 101 please? Posted by: "Pierre Coueffin" pcoueffinx~xxgmail.com Date: Wed Jul 9, 2008 8:23 pm ((PDT)) If you go the saw profile route, don't forget that the headstock can be turned 90 degrees if that lets you clamp the part to the table more safely. ------- Re: Making Milling cutters. Course 101 please? Posted by: "Marcus" marcusx~xximplant-mechanix.com Date: Wed Jul 9, 2008 8:35 pm ((PDT)) Excellent point Pierre. I haven't owned a Sherline mill in a number of years now. I keep forgetting just how versatile they are. Cheers Marcus ------- Brazed Carbide Lathe Tools [sherline] Posted by: "minitool41" minitool41x~xxyahoo.com Date: Fri Jan 16, 2009 4:03 pm ((PST)) During the past 3-4 months Jerry Kieffer had several postings where he suggested using brazed carbide lathe tools for improved results. I had been using a multi-edge carbide cutter and felt that it was providing good results, so I ignored his advice. Finally, I decided to purchase a few brazed cutters (including an AR-4 micro-grain carbide cutter) and was really surprised by the resulting improvement. Cuts are now clean, no chatter, and looked like they have been polished. Most of my work is on easy materials (brass, leaded steel, nickel-silver steel) so turning should not be too difficult. But the brazed cutter on the same materials cuts like a hot knife through butter! Thank you for the advice, Jerry! John Maki ------- Re: Brazed Carbide Lathe Tools Posted by: "VINCE PUGLIESE" gigitreoseix~xxrogers.com Date: Fri Jan 16, 2009 5:55 pm ((PST)) I have been using Micro100 AR4 and E4 on a two-position toolpost I made based on Mr Kieffer's recommendations and have not regretted it in the least. I -occasionally- flirt with the idea of using insert tools but have not taken the plunge yet. VP ------- Re: Brazed Carbide Lathe Tools Posted by: "n2562001" jlkiefferx~xxcharter.net Date: Fri Jan 16, 2009 7:31 pm ((PST)) John & Vince: Thank you for the feed back. It's always nice to hear when occasionally something goes right. While not perfect they have proven (at least in my case) to be the most efficient for general machining of all materials including wood. Insert tooling is of course highly efficient when used as designed in industral applications especially on larger equipment. Jerry Kieffer ------- Re: Brazed Carbide Lathe Tools Posted by: "n2562001" jlkiefferx~xxcharter.net Date: Mon Jan 19, 2009 7:54 am ((PST)) "DW Holtman" wrote: > Hello, > I have a couple of questions. First, are the carbide tools that Sherline such as P/N 11920 quality tools? How do they grade? Are they good for general use? How about their tools with inserts, such as P/N 2261? Thank you in advance. Best, DW Holtman < DW: The Brazed Carbide tools from Sherline that were used at the NAMES Show in April of 2008 Were USA made. They were Carboloy C5 grade that is the highest grade available from this mft. Personally I have used these brazed Carbides from many sources over the years. For being the least expensive USA made Carbides they have held up and performed quite well on all materials. One thing I have noticed is that the carbide height on the shank is a little inconsistent. In many cases I have had to file off at least the paint on the bottom of the tool, to get the cutting tip to center to the spindle when mounted in the standard tool post. The Sherline Carbide insert tooling that I have seen has been USA made and properly sized for Sherline equipment. Other than that I can`t tell you how it performs since I seldom use insert tooling in Sherline size equipment. However I did try Sherline's Ceramic insert tooling at the NAMES show last year. It had outstanding cutting performance on hard metals like Endmill shanks, etc. Jerry Kieffer ------- Re: Larger collets [sherline] Posted by: "a3sigma" dcclark111x~xxcomcast.net Date: Mon Jan 19, 2009 1:53 pm ((PST)) In sherlinex~xxyahoogroups.com, davidry wrote: > Thanks guys. Yes, the Sherline collet set came with a large pot and a > small pot, both drilled (about 1/8") and more importantly slotted so > that they're ready to be drawn closed by the drawbar. However, I'm not > quite sure how to do this accurately. Presumably I'd install one with > the drawbar, but not tight enough to close the slots. I have drill bits > and a boring bar, but I'm a little leery of cutting (and especially > boring) into a hole that has slots in it. Seems to me those slots are an > invitation to catch the cutting tool? Or will a successive number of > very light passes be enough to just work through it? I haven't had to > make a collet yet so any tips would be appreciated. Thanks! --Dave See: http://www.sherline.com/2090inst.pdf Not at all difficult, light cuts are the thing. Be certain the chuck is tightened on an 1/8" pin placed deeper in the chuck than you need to bore. Make a pair of gauges before you start. Turn a piece of scrap some few thousandths smaller than the final diameter you want on your chuck, and another exactly to size or a thousandth under. Bore the chuck 'til the smaller gauge just goes in, then take a final finishing cut equal to the difference in radius. Check with the larger gauge. It's OK if you're a hair big, the chuck will take that up when you tighten it on your work piece. I often get a couple of different diameters out of one chuck if the larger diameter is sufficiently shallow. I'll post some photos shortly. DC David Clark in Southern Maryland, USA [NOTE TO FILE: This above message here has already been corrected using information posted by DC shortly afterwards. He also said:] PHOOEY, blew that one. .... The first gauge pin should, of course, be a few thou SMALLER than the finished size. Bore 'til it just goes in, then cut the difference in radius. This technique makes it less likely that you will overshoot the final cut. You can also use the shanks of drills as gauge pins. Of course you could always use a 0 to 1 inch inside micrometer. I used to have one, but some fool closed it all the way and it disappeared. A set of small hole gauges is also very useful. See: http://www.mcmaster.com/ page 2233 BTW, I've had no problem starting the bore with a drill; though it will complain a bit. Definitely finish with a boring bar to ensure concentricity. DC ------- Re: Larger collets Posted by: "chieftoolmaker" chieftoolmakerx~xxearthlink.net Date: Mon Jan 19, 2009 1:54 pm ((PST)) Dave, To do it right, get three close fitting pins, or shim stock (there are three slots, right?) to fit into the slots. Clamp on the pins, or shim stock......Using the drawbar.... Make sure they will not be contacted by your boring bar. Your best bet is to bore out the collet/pot. Drill bits will catch and follow the hole. A boring bar will do the job. One caution....Take many light passes.... Take some finishing passes (called spring cuts) that allows the boring bar to relax.... That means successive passes with NO outfeed (you are boring internally) SLOOWLY work out to the right diameter..... Use your part/work as a plug gage for a slip to push fit. That's it..... Let us know... Regards, Jerry G (Glickstein) ------- [NOTE: Original conversation is about getting a good finish while turning on a lathe; this message talks about how to sharpen a carbide tool bit.] Re: How good a finish can I expect [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: "pflatlyne" pflatlynex~xxyahoo.com Date: Sun Jan 25, 2009 9:28 am ((PST)) I grind my carbide tools with a Dremel tool (actually, it's a Chinese Dremel knock off). I use little diamond grinding wheels I get from Harbor Freight for 3 dollars for a pack of 5. It takes a little practice to get it right, but works just fine. I've also done it with the same wheel mounted in a drill press on the highest speed. I haven't decided which works best yet, but either option is cheap and effective. ------- NOTE: ***** Really good colour-code tip here. ***** Re: How good a finish can I expect Posted by: "Shad" shendersonx~xxthegeekgroup.org Date: Tue Jan 27, 2009 6:42 am ((PST)) Hi All, no Atlas lathe, just an old horizontal milling machine I'm slowly getting working. But I have a Taig lathe. It may look like a toy, but it's actually a damn accurate, repeatable little machine for small work. It handles steel "OK", but aluminum is its bread & butter. I've found that grinding my own tools is a PITA, but so far, the *BEST* thing I've done, is add 3 small plastic boxes to my "lathe toolbox". One is painted blue, another is red, the third is green. The blue box holds all my high-rake tools for aluminum. The tools themselves have one end spraypainted blue. The red box holds the medium rake tools for steel (again, the tool dead ends are painted red), and the green box holds the no-rake tools for brass. It's a simple thing, but it make a *WORLD* of difference when working, and it keeps me from applying the wrong rake to the wrong material. Sure, you *can* use any of the bits on any material you can chuck. But for the best results, I stick to a tool with the proper rake for the material I'm cutting. If it's a piece of mystery metal, I generally stick with the medium rake tools. Just my $.02! Shad ------- Re: Collet set offered by "800 Watt" on ebay [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: "Brett Jones" brettx~xx5foot2.com Date: Sun Mar 1, 2009 6:39 pm ((PST)) Steve wrote: > collets that use a draw bar are for holding cutting tools. > collets that use a draw tube are for holding work. > Not true. Collets are for holding THINGS. What those things are does > not matter. The lathe could care less. My mill has a hollow drawbar > and I don't think they intended that you would put work in the spindle > (although I have heard of some pretty trick setups milling with > the work in the spindle). > The easiest / cheapest way to hold 3/4" diameter work in a collet in an > Atlas is to use a 3/4" MT3 collet. > The ER or 5C collet setups are the ultimate, though. > If you have a set of 3AT collets, then you really only need the collets > above 1/2" in 3MT. > Collets are not the best way to hold end mills. You really would want > a 3MT end mill holder, then you would not have to worry about the > end mill pulling out (don't ask me how I know). There are exceptions to every "rule", but in general a draw bar is used in a mill and a tube in a lathe (the Van Norman 5V collet being one exception). The problem with the bar (and hence advantage to the tube) is that it forces the draw bar collet to be a blind hole. Now lets say we wanted to chuck up a 12" long length of 3/4" material. How deep is the blind 3/4" MT3 collet you consider to be the "easiest / cheapest way" to hold stock? Three inches, maybe four? Next lets say we have to hold this work in a collet (low TIR, producing multiple parts, or for whatever reason) and we took your advice and went with the blind MT3 collets. We of course would find ourselves needing to buy or make a collet system that could accommodate our 12" long stock. Since the 3AT and 3C collets are limited to 1/2" for through spindle work because of the draw tube, our next choices for the 3/4" stock would be a ER spindle nose adapter or a 5C chuck. I should also point out that the MT3 to ER32 adapters bring us right back to the blind hole issue. Those adapters are meant to be used in a milling machine. If you want the ER system on a lathe, use the spindle adapters. In my opinion there are two rules for picking the best collet system for a lathe. One is to pick a system that allows the work being turned to slide through the head stock. The second is to use a system that allows you to fit the biggest work through the spindle as possible. For the Atlas/Craftsman machines that is either the ER spindle nose adapter or a 5C chuck. If you're tooling up from scratch, spending your cash on anything else is wasteful. Brett Jones ------- Re: Collet set offered by "800 Watt" on ebay Posted by: "danaz.chandler" djnx~xxieee.org Date: Sun Mar 1, 2009 8:03 pm ((PST)) I agree with Steve. I use an ER-40 collet system in both the mill and the lathe. I got an ER-40 to R8 adapter for the mill and a thread on ER-40 adapter for my Atlas 12" lathe (this from Tallgrass - not in his catalog, but ask him...) I then bought all the ER-40 collets on Ebay. Most are Chinese. All are nicely made. The advantage for me is that they have a .035 or so range of grip. So buying them in 1/32 increments means I can grip anything round from .125 through 1-1/16". Metric, odd size, drill bits, stock, end mills (and they do NOT slip in the ER sytem), edge finders, center drills, barstock, taps, boring heads, indicators, or whatever. One system. For the lathe, the thread on allows stock to slide through it. Dan in Chandler AZ. ------- Idea for beginners to grinding bits... [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: "catboat15x~xxaol.com" Date: Sat Mar 7, 2009 7:30 pm ((PST)) Grinding HSS bits is hardly a precision project. When you buy a new tool bit, you see the front already tapered back from top to bottom. The square hole in the Armstrong tool holder tilts the bit up. So there is your clearance on the end and on the top. All you need to grind in is the side clearance to give a cutting edge with relief. So you are not cutting with the full width of the bit, follow the factory made slope of the front to leave a cutter the width you want. When turning brass you want zero rake or the tool wants to "self feed". Aluminum wants a bit almost like a tool for wood, lots of rake and clearance. For most steels use moderate angles. Keep a good fine hand stone near your grinder too. A bit of polish with fine stone makes the turning go easier and improves the finish on the work. You may want to get a set of preground HSS bits from Little machine Shop or ENCO and look at the way they are ground. A few degrees one way or the other is no big deal. Since you are using the lantern style tool post, arrange it so that if a problem develops the tool will swing away from the cut, not deeper. With the lantern tool post, when you adjust the "rocker wedge" to bring the cutter to center height any angles you ground in are changed as now the tool is not entering the work on a horizontal line, but tilted somewhat depending on how the rocker is used to cut on center line. I pick up a lot of my tooling from surplus and yard sales etc and some of the grinds on those used tools makes we wonder what in the heck was that tool used for? (That is one advantage of HSS over carbide, that is you can grind that special bit to get into that one corner where no commercial shaped bit can reach.) ------- Re: Fly cutter tool [taigtools] Posted by: "Michael Fagan" woodworker88x~xxgmail.com Date: Fri May 1, 2009 5:27 pm ((PDT)) On Fri, May 1, 2009, glynmck wrote: > What would be a good starting profile for a fly cutter tool for > non-ferrous metals or plastics? You want a large (1/16" or more) radius on the tip and a fair amount of positive rake. ------- Sharping Jig [Sharpening Jig] [taigtools] Posted by: "Bob Gilbert" staffwalkerx~xxyahoo.com Date: Mon May 25, 2009 1:24 am ((PDT)) As I am sure most of you have noticed with my occasional posts, I am pretty dumb about all things to do with lathes and machining in general. I'm a tobacco pipe maker so a couple of years ago I bought a Taig lathe to cut stems out of a hard rubber rod called Ebonite. It eats tool bits like crazy. I am lucky to make one or sometimes two stems with a new bit before it dulls. I can't seem to be able to sharpen them no matter how much I read on the subject so basically I burn up five bucks per stem. The specs posted on Nick's site of the sharping jig seems like the perfect solution. Dumb question number one: As I understand it, right and left cutters are actually the same, just rotate a right hand cutter and it becomes a left hand cutter. So why does the jig have two slots on the face? Wouldn't one serve to sharpen both? Dumb question number two: Do you think it's possible to make one of these with the mill attachment for the lathe? I have the attachment but have never used it. If so what type of mill cutter should I buy to cut the slots? Final question? If someone on here would be willing to make a sharping jig for me please contact me by private email with estimated cost. bob gilbert ------- Re: Sharping Jig [Sharpening Jig] Posted by: "David Underwood" dave.underwoodx~xxsympatico.ca Date: Mon May 25, 2009 7:01 am ((PDT)) Hi, Bob. Question 1: Visualize the toolbit mounted in the lathe tool post, ready to use. You're looking straight down from above. On one toolbit, the cutting "point" (slightly rounded, actually) is on the left and sticks out a bit further than the other (non-cutting) one. On the other toolbit, the cutting point is the one on the right. In each case, the front edge of the toolbit is angled back toward the non-cutting corner. So, there are two different angles. Question 2a: I don't have the lathe milling attachment, so I can only offer an opinion. The jig is canted 7 degrees, which means that the whole body has to be angled this much so you can cut the top and bottom surfaces. I used an angle vise to make mine in the mill. Can you manage this using the lathe milling attachment? Similarly the groove in the top of the jig means that the entire height of the jig body would be sticking out from the milling attachment vise. Is it substantial enough to manage this? I doubt it, but perhaps someone who has one can respond. Question 2b: When I made mine, I think I used a 1/4" two-flute end mill. Dave ------- Re: Sharping Jig [Sharpening Jig] Posted by: "Ken Cline" clinex~xxfrii.com Date: Mon May 25, 2009 9:07 am ((PDT)) Forgive me if you know this already, but tools for cutting hard rubber should have zero rake and 10-20 degrees of clearance. That means your cutter should look like a square bar with clearance angles ground in it behind the cut. The lack of rake prevents the cutter from digging into the rubber. Since all the ready to use cutters I have seen have rake built into them, you will likely be better off starting with blanks (lengths of square tool steel or carbide stock). At a minimum, you need to cut clearances on the front and side. I use a bench grinder with an adjustable rest for shaping cutters (use white aluminum oxide grinding wheel for tool steel, diamond for carbide). In your case, only one angle (15+/-5 degrees) is needed, and you can shape both front and side clearances, as well as a radius (if desired) with that one setup. You can hone the edge with sharpening stones after shaping on the grinder, if it helps. You can use the sharpening jig if you don't have a good bench grinder setup, just be sure to get the angles right for your material. By the way, Machinery's Handbook suggests that it is easier to grind hard rubber (with C36 abrasive) than cut it. ------- Re: Sharping Jig [Sharpening Jig] Posted by: "Stan Stocker" skstockerx~xxcomcast.net Date: Mon May 25, 2009 9:26 am ((PDT)) Hi Bob, I handle my tool sharpening either free hand (in most cases), or with some fairly specialized tooling and a surface grinder, which is an option most folks don't have. I did enjoy Keith's sharpening jig article, he has done some very clever and nice work, not to mention the excellent job he did writing and illustrating the article. To make his jig, you would need a 3/8 inch two flute end mill. A four flute would also work, but the end cutting and greater chip ejection of a two flute is handy. If using aluminum, you can get away with "quality import" stuff, although a good name brand tool will usually cut cleaner. While I don't mill on the lathe, I believe from reading the article that you could easily make this on the lathe. Much of the cutting would be done not with the milling attachment but rather with the work packed up and clamped to the cross slide. The seven degree angle on the base is probably the tricky spot without a mill. Realistically, I'd be inclined to step mill the waste out of the way and finish with a large mill file rather than try to mill the angle if I was making this jig on a lathe. You should be aware that this jig produces seven degree angles all around. This is a good geometry for steel, an OK but not optimal geometry for aluminum, and just flat out bad for brass. Aluminum cuts better with a steeper top rake, while brass needs ZERO top rake. The brass is easy to work around, just don't grind any top rake at all, so this isn't a big deal. After grinding in the jig, you still need to radius the tip a bit. Your observation that a left and a right hand tool are the same is close, but in practice isn't likely to be satisfactory. The only way you could rotate a tool 90 degrees and have the "handedness" swap would be 1) the top rake and side clearance angles are identical, and 2) the tip has absolutely no radius at all. The lack of tip radius is likely to generate some pretty poor surface finish, and is also a passing state as wear will round the tip. When turned 90 degrees, a nicely radiused cutting tip is now a VERY dull cutter. I've never cut ebonite, but have used other materials that are very abrasive. You may want to consider going over to indexable carbide tooling. A nice tool with a 221 insert is readily available, and each insert gives three tips before discarding. Catch the tips on sale for $2.50 or so and your tooling costs drop by a good bit. Even if the tip only lasts for a single stem, three stems now cost $2.50 rather than $15 in tooling. If you need a smoother finish, 222 inserts have a larger tip radius, typically giving a smoother cut, BUT they leave a larger radius in corners. Travers and Enco often have good deals on inserts, just be aware that you are expected to buy ten packs of inserts. They will in some cases sell singles, but usually at a really silly high mark up. Brazed carbide tools are another option, although I dislike throwing out so much material just because a tiny bit of edge is chipped beyond recovery. The cheap tools are not always very useful, the expensive ones cost more than indexed tooling. They are convenient however. You may also be using too soft a HSS blank (think about going to a 10% cobalt blank), or you may be grinding the top rake or side clearance too steeply. An excessively acute cutting edge wears fast, although it does shear nicely while the edge is good. If you are anywhere near Linden, Virginia (or are passing this way anytime) contact me offlist. You're welcome to come by and get some hands on tool sharpening help. It can be hard to sort it all out from books and the conflicting advice found on different sites. If you haven't done so, you might find the tool bit grinding article on Sherline's site to be helpful. It is probably the most pragmatic and straightforward set of basic instructions around. The only nit I have is that they repeat the advice to use water to cool a HSS blank. Dunking hot HSS into cold water generates deep microfractures the result in early tool failure. I know this doesn't specifically answer all of your questions, but hopefully is helpful in some way. Stan Stocker Linden, Virginia ------- HSS tool grinding [atlas618lathe] Posted by: "John Bump" johnbumpx~xxgmail.com Date: Wed May 27, 2009 3:10 pm ((PDT)) This isn't 618-specific, but it is small lathe-specific. I've been using primarily/only HSS tools, and have been learning to grind them myself. I'm mostly cutting aluminum and mild steel. The instructions I've read on grinding always say once you've finished on the grinding wheel you should round off the tip with a hone. I've been running the tool across a piece of 800 grit sandpaper two times instead, as I lack any sharpening stones. What I've found is that this seems to work pretty well with steel, but with aluminum, the sharper the tip, the better. I've taken to not rounding the tip at all: grind the top rake, then the side rake, then use the tool at that sharpness. It gives a more ragged surface finish, but it cuts much better -- deeper, smoother, with much less tendency to chatter. Intuitively this makes sense: the smaller the contact point, the less it's going to chatter. But I'm wondering if I'm just bad at tool grinding, and I could be getting the same general results with a rounded tip, and getting better surface finish as well. Any thoughts? ------- Re: HSS tool grinding Posted by: "Michael Fagan" woodworker88x~xxgmail.com Date: Wed May 27, 2009 8:24 pm ((PDT)) Your experimental results are pretty spot on. A smaller tool radius (such as a sharp tool) will tend to cut with lower cutting forces, but at the expense of surface finish (basically the radius smooths out the "scallops" left by a moving tool). A larger radius will last longer (thus work better in steel) and will produce a better finish. One thing to keep in mind is that by tool nose radius, your goal is about 1/64" or 10-15 thou radius. Anything larger will get into the range of much higher cutting forces very quickly (because the actual linear amount of tool engaged in the material increases rapidly). Michael ------- NOTE TO FILE: The following message from Doc provides some keen insights into getting the most out of cutters towards obtaining a smooth finish. ------- Re: Gear question [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: "doc" n8as1x~xxaol.com Date: Mon Jun 1, 2009 6:17 pm ((PDT)) You wont like this suggestion, but it is intended to be helpful .....unless u need the slower feed for winding coils, you need to learn more abt lathe operation ....pointed tool bits leave spiral rings...flat bit ends traverse the rings & eliminate them... rounded ends w/ a lite finish cut end up acting as a point cause lack of depth of cut .....i have the same lathe as yours, but it wasn't till I acquired an antique 14 in lathe w/ fixed belt feeds of .007, .011 & .016 that I got serious abt smooth final cuts. the lathe came sans gears.. i made an xtra hanger to use gears on the lead screw for a slo feed.. & over the course of a year or so, we cut abt 20 gears. I got the feed down to .0016, but in the interim, I learned to grind /set bits so that at .006, feed, all feed rings are gone...as a result, I have never used the auxiliary slo feeds...... .first ...use high speed bits ..they are sharper, require less pressure, & allow fine cuts. carbide is useful in special situations.. large cast iron bars, & hardened material ....u need to take more than one finishing cut, the last one under .005 w/ one of 4 bit grinds.one is a knife shape, like the carbide tipped bit(A)...you angle this near FLAT (but not quite) & cut under .005 towards headstock. too flat or too much d.o.c., & chatter occurs....u can grind a flat on the end of a 60 deg or so pointed bit, maybe abt 1/32 ... OR, use a shovel nose bit, (full flat on end, w/ back rake, front clearance &sides tapering back w/ clearance). you set this up as near flat as feasible, leading w/ the left edge.. this grind is also useful for incutting facing, & for squaring up shoulders...finally the ne plu ultra is a shear bit grind. u grind a round nose bit w/ abt 4 in radius on end w/ back rake only, so that when in the holder it ends up rotated counter clockwise so it sits at abt a 60 deg angle, & as u move towards headstock, it SHEARS across the feed lines. (when grinding this, u have to hold it not flat, but w/ the diagonals VERTICAL.. there are some pics around, hopefully someone will chime in w/ their location. I have some jpegs of this shear bit in use on my shaper, but none of lathe operation .. Best wishes Docn8as P.S. industrial practice in the 30's when these lite lathes were designed, called for a couple thou left for filing & emery cloth for finish .... today, parts are finish ground.... as HSMS, we when we want a "true" smooth finish, the above bit grinds will accomplish this ... because texts are geared for industrial usage, info on really smooth finish cuts is scarce... ------- tools and surface finish contribution [MyMyford] Posted by: "andyevans_2000" andyevans_2000x~xxyahoo.ie Date: Tue Jun 9, 2009 9:43 am ((PDT)) Hello All. I wanted to make a contribution to the group since as I have asked lots of questions and got lots of help. I know there has been a lot of discussion about tools (HSS vs indexable etc) with lots of problems from newbies concerning poor surface finish - I wanted to pass on my experiences from the last few months as they may be relevant to other beginners. I got a number of old HSS and brazed carbide tip tools with my Super 7 last summer - initial results using them were awful. I had a cheap offhand grinder and spent time trying create some new tools from HSS blanks but found it difficult to get the angles right and kept ruining already ground faces with a slip of the hand. I purchased a couple of new ready ground HSS tools from Chronos and straight away got decent, if not great, results and used those since. Results were OK, but found it difficult to take really fine cuts - which I guessed was down to lack of sharpness, my attempts at using an oilstone seemed to just change the tip geometry not make it any sharper - again down to lack of experience from me. A few weeks ago I purchased an indexable holder with some inserts (from JB cuting tools) suitable for general T&F work on steel using a small lathe. Initial results were good (not great surface finish) but the edges chipped very easily on interupted cuts and again taking very fine cuts was still problematic - again down to poor sharpness. Anyway, I purchased a 2nd hand Worden MK1 Tool & Cutter grinder last week. Last night I spent a while creating a simple knife tool from scratch, taking care to get all the angles right and creating a small radius at the cutting tip. The tool is very sharp. Initial turning results show a mirror like finish and the ability to dust a few tenths if required. I feel that being able to create a really sharp tool has been the biggest leap forward for me. Trying to use an offhand grinder didn't work for me because I didn't have the manual skills to be able to create smooth sharp faces at the right angles and becuase the wheel was too coarse - I also didn't want to spend time learning a new skill at the same time as trying to learn how to use a lathe. I found the Worden easy to set up and use - it doesn't require any manual skills, its just thinking through the angles you need and setting them all up. The wheel I have fitted is also fine enough to leave a sharp finish. Other things that have helped are getting the slides working smoothly and replacing the worn cross-slide feedscrew and nut with new items. Not sure if this is helpful to any other beginners out there but it's just my experience of learning how to use a lathe. Andy ------- Re: tools and surface finish contribution Posted by: "durnfjmx~xxaol.com" Date: Tue Jun 9, 2009 10:46 am ((PDT)) Well done, Andy, keep practicing - it'll become second nature soon! Just to add a couple of comments, the *actual* geometry (angles) of the tool is not that critical. ie. if the book says 6 degrees, then 7 or 5 degrees will do just as well - what is *really* important, as you've discovered, is to get the edge really, really sharp, and a tiny radius on the tip - also really, really sharp. Don't give up on the offhand grinder, though, you will often need to put a decent edge on a tool for a finishing cut, and won't have time to set up the t&c grinder. Use a medium coarse and free-cutting stone on one side of the grinder, and a fine, cool stone on the other. Make a decent adjustable rest for that side, or use wedges on a flat rest, to get the angles of the cutting edge somewhere near, then use a hand held diamond lap or an Arkansas stone, freehand, to give you a really sharp edge. All much quicker, when you've learned and practiced the techniques :) MikeD ------- Re: tools and surface finish contribution Posted by: "Norman Atkinson" ravensworth2674x~xxyahoo.co.uk Date: Wed Jun 10, 2009 2:32 am ((PDT)) Congratulations on your progress! You can now start looking at some of the fairly recent aricles in mags like MEW which have covered similar tools like Kennets, Stents and Quorns as well as your Worden. Again, HemingwayKits has expanded the scope of their machine far beyond when I dumped my Mark 1 (following insufferable grit problems). You can now move on to 'honing' with diamond pastes to do things like carbide scrapers. Cheers Norm ------- Re: tools and surface finish contribution Posted by: "Christopher Hicks" cmh21x~xxcam.ac.uk Date: Wed Jun 10, 2009 5:15 am ((PDT)) durnfjmx~xxaol.com wrote: >then use a hand held diamond lap or an Arkansas stone, freehand, I second the recommendation to use a diamond lap for the final polish. They're cheap, effective and easy to use - what more could you want? The word "freehand" perhaps needs some elaboration, though, as you do run the risk of rounding off the edges. I find that if I hold the tool in one hand and the lap in the other, I simply do not have enough control. I dare say with practice I would improve, but what I find works for me is either: 1) Lay the lap flat on the bench, face up, and hold the face of the tool firmly down onto it with a finger and thumb, or 2) Hold the tool in the vice with the face to be polished roughly horizontal. Hold the lap on top of the tool with thumb on top, and fingers hooked under the tool or braced against the vice. Use thumb pressure in the centre of the face to push the lap onto the tool, and then rub it just a few mm either way across the tool. The idea is that the thumb pressure does not go over the edge of the tool that is supporting it. (As ever, more difficult to describe than do!) You can also use a modification of (2) to put a final polish on the top surface of the tool while it is still clamped to the tool post, just before you take that final tenth off the job. Finally, you can also use a variation of (2) to polish the (deliberate) radius on the nose of knife of finishing tools. Christopher Hicks ------- Re: tools and surface finish contribution Posted by: "Christopher Hicks" cmh21x~xxcam.ac.uk Date: Wed Jun 10, 2009 5:29 am ((PDT)) durnfjmx~xxaol.com wrote: >Use a medium coarse and free-cutting stone on one side of the >grinder, and a fine, cool stone on the other. Mike, can you make any more specific suggestion for stone type and grit? I replaced one of the as-supplied grey wheels on my DIY-store grinder with a white Aluminium Oxide 60 grit wheel. Whilst a distinct improvement, it is still a long job to grind a usable tool from a 3/8" blank. Christopher Hicks ------- Re: tools and surface finish contribution Posted by: "durnfjmx~xxaol.com" Date: Wed Jun 10, 2009 6:38 am ((PDT)) Hello Christopher, I fitted a 100grit Blue Ceramic wheel to my DIY-store grinder after recommendation from a friend. See: http://www.toolpost.co.uk/pages/Grinding_Systems/O_Donnell/Grind ing_Wheels/grinding_wheels.html#Blue for details. I have also made a decent adjustable tool rest about 3" square to fit the grinder around the wheel, and combine that with a steel wedge with a 7 or 8 degree taper which puts (near enough) the right angle on most tools intended for steel. (I also have a Quorn which is obviously far more versatile, but the time it takes to set up is not justified for the majority of lathe tool sharpening.) When starting with a 3/8" or 1/2" HSS blank, I find that by far the quickest way of getting a useful tool is to grip it in the workmate -- outside the shop -- and attack it with a hand held angle grinder. My local BOC Gas and Gear store sell 4 1/2" discs that are only 3/64" thick. These are intended for cutting stainless steel, but cut chunks out of HSS tool blanks in seconds! So to make (say) a parting off tool, rough it out with this disc outside the shop, then transfer it to the shop grinder or Quorn to finish the shape, before honing the cutting edges as you described. Always wear decent goggles when using an angle grinder on steel - the effluent particles have a very high velocity, and go in unpredictable directions. MikeD ------- Re: tools and surface finish contribution Posted by: "Norman Atkinson" ravensworth2674x~xxyahoo.co.uk Date: Thu Jun 11, 2009 2:31 am ((PDT)) Bob Minchin wrote: > I too get good service from cheap double ended grinders. They have a > pretty easy life only running for 10 minutes or so every now and then. > The only thing I would suggest is worth checking is the shaft end float. > I have seen one cheapy with oilite type sleeve bearings which is no good > for our sort of work. Bob "timperrin97" wrote: > >> My grinder cost me £15 from B&Q so is it worth spending money on a > >> new wheel if it is probably going to die on me very soon anyway? Christopher Hicks wrote: > > My thought on that question is that if the grinder is rubbish, then maybe the motor will fail or the bearings will wear out. Either way, you can still transplant the decent wheel (if you buy one) to a new grinder, so you've got nothing to lose. Christopher Hicks < < Time for a stand back and assess the situation? At the moment a tenner will buy a Lidl or Aldi 'Chindia' grinder or about 2 gallons of petrol for (?) 80 miles. I bought a couple of grinders and so what, if they died on me, it would take longer than the fuel to go through the car engine. So what can we do with a grinder? Even with the paving stones fastened to each end, a bit of arithmetic will grind the start angles on a lathe tool. All that you need is to know that one degree in a 6" wheel will involve a simple formula of .0088"x clearance angle x diameter of the wheel. So 7 degrees on a 6" wheel is .0088 x 7 x 6 = .3696 or 3/8th to lift or drop your wooden or sheet metal rest. So you get a slightly hollow lathe tool but a cheap jack diamond hone will sharpen the tool (as the rest of you have said). Moreover, the odds of rounding the cutting edge is reduced. After that, it is merely rounding off the little tip. And away you go -- laughing and scratching! If you want to go up a peg in sophistication, you can buy some better wheels and another peg is to join ToolGrinding here and make Mr Nixon's old but very useful grinding jig to go onto the end or make two and go onto both ends of the grinder. OK, me???? Nope, I don't do that anymore as I now have better but mostly homemade tooling. However, the theory remains unchanged whatever fancy swag one has. Norm ------- 5C / ER-32 collets [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: "dragonfl1ght" dragonflightx~xxrogers.com Date: Wed Aug 26, 2009 12:09 pm ((PDT)) I am a totally inexperienced machinist wannabe. A year ago I purchased an Atlas 10" lathe and this winter a RF25/30 clone milling machine. I occasionally think about collets. On my mill I think a spin index and/or collet blocks would make life a lot easier. On my lathe I generally only use my 4-jaw chuck and am not at all bothered by spending the time (a couple of minutes maximum) to centre pieces, but diameters less than 1/4 inch are a pain, if I don't want to mar the piece. So now the questions. 5C collets are the choice for the collet blocks and the spin index, but are not continuous and are large for my lathe, but I can make/buy a 5C collet chuck for the lathe. ER-32 collets are not a bad size for the lathe, are front closing, continuous, but I would have to buy/make a 5C collet chuck for the ER-32 to use in the spin index. Finally cost. Enco has imported ER-32 collets for $250 and a set of 5C collets in 64ths (pretty close to continuous) for about the same, though if it were just for the spin index I would probably go for a smaller set of 5C collets. I have heard some people have had problems with the ER collets from Enco wrt [with respect to] runout, and $400 for a set of ETM collets is more than I would like to spend for the convenience on the lathe. Opinions, suggestions, help??? thanks mike ------- Re: 5C / ER-32 collets Posted by: "William Abernathy" williamx~xxinch.com Date: Wed Aug 26, 2009 12:40 pm ((PDT)) My advice would be to spend the money on a 3-jaw chuck and worry about collets later. If you're like me, eventually, you'll buy all the collets anyway. Just get a basic set (the 16ths) to go with the 5C spindexer, and when you want a project, build your own collet chuck for ER 32. If you want rock-bottom prices on any of this stuff, check out 800WATT on eBay. Just don't expect any customer service if something's wrong. I have been lucky with them, and have no complaints. If you're feeling adventuresome, you might want to check these guys out. http://www.glacern.com/index.php?page=home They have pretty pictures and good prices. I will be interested to hear if their stuff is as good as it looks. William A. ------- Re: 5C / ER-32 collets Posted by: "Dragonflight" dragonflightx~xxrogers.com Date: Wed Aug 26, 2009 3:16 pm ((PDT)) William. Actually I already have a reasonably good 3-jay chuck which I never use. Collets seem a better choice for small and soft pieces (aluminum/brass) -- but I probably need a better choice of materials to protect them from the jaws. Because of the mill (and cost) I am leaning toward the 5C collets, but it seems a shame to not be able to use them on the lathe. Glacern just came up on the milling group. They seem to have good prices -- $200 for the ER-32 set with at least a statement of .0002 TIR and ground, which would be better than I need to worry about! I don't know if they are hardened or not but?! I found today on Ebay metric ER-32 for $100 which seems really cheap with ".0005 runout", but I'm sure they aren't hardened. I live in Canada, so I usually get things shipped to my sister in Conn. and so it is a while before I get them. "Doubtful" customer service can be a problem. thanks mike [later message] update - I just got a call from Glacern and they said their collets were hardened. mike ------- Re: 5C / ER-32 collets Posted by: "Robert Silas" robert.silasx~xxvideotron.ca Date: Wed Aug 26, 2009 1:11 pm ((PDT)) Mike, to answer your paragraph: "ER-32 collets are not a bad size for the lathe, are front closing, continuous, but I would have to buy/make a 5C collet chuck for the ER-32 to use in the spin index." I made an adapter for the 13" Sharp lathe between MT5 to 5C collets and it turned out very good. I still have to make a draw tube for it. I have a full set of 5C collets and I bought some square-holding collets too. If you give me an off list e-mail address, you can have pictures if you'd like. Robert ------- Re: 5C / ER-32 collets Posted by: "Dragonflight" dragonflightx~xxrogers.com Date: Wed Aug 26, 2009 2:31 pm ((PDT)) Thanks Robert, but my small 10" is only a 3MT so you have to have quite a large chuck sticking out for the 5C collets. mike ------- Re: 5C / ER-32 collets Posted by: "Robert Silas" robert.silasx~xxvideotron.ca Date: Wed Aug 26, 2009 6:14 pm ((PDT)) Yes, I realized this myself as soon as I sent my e-mail. I bought MT3 collets for the 10" Atlas from 800WATT, 11 pieces for $64.00, if I remember right. I have not used those yet, the draw-bar yet to be made. Robert ------- Re: 5C / ER-32 collets Posted by: "Scott Henion" shenionx~xxshdesigns.org Date: Wed Aug 26, 2009 3:15 pm ((PDT)) Making a chuck that screws on to the outside of the spindle is not difficult, especially if you buy the clamping nut. I made one for ER-40 collets and it works well: http://shdesigns.org/Craftsman-12x36/er40.shtml I picked up the collets from 800watt, cost about $120 for 1/8 to 1". ER-32 is a bit cheaper. Scott G. Henion http://shdesigns.org/Craftsman-12x36/ ------- Re: 5C / ER-32 collets Posted by: "Dragonflight" dragonflightx~xxrogers.com Date: Wed Aug 26, 2009 3:29 pm ((PDT)) Scott, I had seen your website and your chuck which is why I thought it would be no problem. How do you find the quality of your ER set? mike ------- Re: 5C / ER-32 collets Posted by: "Scott Henion" shenionx~xxshdesigns.org Date: Wed Aug 26, 2009 7:24 pm ((PDT)) They seem good. I don't have any precision bars to test them with. First test was with a 3/4 bar and measured 0.003" runout at the collet. Took me a while to figure out the bar was oblong as there were two high spots 180 degrees apart. I think they are hardened. I found a set with the MT3 chuck for a good price. Then sold the MT3 chuck after I made my chuck. A few sellers carry the locking rings. They are hard to make as they have a flange in them. Makes getting tooling in there to cut the front taper difficult. Scott G. Henion Consultant Stone Mountain, GA SHDesigns http://www.shdesigns.org ------- Re: steel used in spindles for ER series collets [taigtools] Posted by: "imserv1" imservx~xximsrv.com Date: Wed Sep 2, 2009 2:14 pm ((PDT)) "greg.mcfadden" wrote: > Alright, I have a question for folks. what is the typical steel and surface heat treatment used for spindles and holders intended for use with ER collets? I'm working on effectively a custom ER-32 collet holder for work, and I figured one of you folks might know. I was considering 4340, surface hardened to rockwell C, 60, to a depth of ~0.8mm for the taper area. I am not certain that is the best choice, but I believe the surface hardness is required. < 4340 is not suitable for surface treatment. Rc45 is available in preheattreated 4350. It machines quite nicely and has good durability for one-off tooling items. However, it will abraid and wear under heavy production and wear conditions. 6150 is similar to 4340, with slightly better hardening capability to about Rc50 I believe. Both alloys harden all the way through. 4340/4350 both machine much better than 6150. For best results use 8620 carburized and hardened to Rc60-65 before finish grinding. That's what is used for most commercial grade (made in USA quality) tooling. Excellent machinability before heat treatment. Very stable after. Fred Smith - IMService http://www.imsrv.com ------- Re: Carbide or HSS? Now Tool Grinding [taigtools] Posted by: "Stan Stocker" skstockerx~xxcomcast.net Date: Thu Sep 24, 2009 6:42 am ((PDT)) Hi Bertho, I'll try to provide some ideas interspersed through your original message: Bertho Boman wrote: > On the issue of tool bits I am looking for a good way of grinding them. Now I just eyeball the angles and use a regular bench grinder but I need something better. I have seen the ones that look like a bench grinder but with a diamond wheel and an adjustable angle plate. I think I need something better than that. For example I am looking at grinding a 1 mm radius tip to use with a CNC lathe so the dimensions should be accurate for using tool radius compensation or even manually calculating the G-code. I do not want to break the bank so any higandh-end solution is not practical. I wish I had a surface grinder...Maybe I need to build a miniature one??< For handling flat surfaces the jig a fellow named Keith Brooke has written a truly excellent article that is linked from Nicks home page. Well worth a look for some ideas on flat surface generation, and for a very low cost way to do things well. Consider the diamond wheel and the tool holding fixture as two separate but related bits of tooling. Each one could be useful combined with other gadgetry: http://www.mechanicalphilosopher.com/kbsharpening.pdf For handing odd and precise radius grinding you need some fixtures. You don't NEED a surface grinder, you can do the work on any grinder that can take the right wheels and has good bearings. A grinder that can take or be modified to take cup wheels would be my first choice for many tasks. I'd suggest taking a look at some information on the Quorn tool and cutter grinder, and crawling the web for K&O Lee manuals. Once you have a better understanding of complex and high dollar (or high labor as in the Quorn) set ups, you can extract the bits of the design that give the motions you need and build what you want. I've always thought that a Taig lathe kit would make a mighty fine start on a miniature tool and cutter grinder. Add a riser block, a few fixtures and swings, an adapter to the spindle to take a cup wheel, a few witness marks and indicator mounts, and a shop vac hose holder to control crud and you could do most small stuff other than reamer flutes and long tools between centers. Haven't done anything about the idea to date, but if I didn't have the surface grinder and Black Diamond drill grinder base and motor setup I surely would. As I'm crowded in my shop I just might sell off the surface grinder and get small... Making gear cutters for clock and watch work involves many of the same problems. There are several excellent books that I'll suggest in ascending order of cost: The Clock and Watchmakers Guide to Gear Cutting by Robert Porter - An excellent paperback for around $35. The author provides plans for jigs and fixtures to allow you to generate angles, planes, and curves on cutting tools repeatably and predictably. Probably the most pragmatic and workshop style of the books I'd recommend. Fortunately also the least expensive. The focus in on adding tooling to a lathe, with the grinding wheel or disk mounted to the headstock. Any method of spinning the grinding surface that gives the same degree of access to the surface will work. You get plans for a clock movement as an added bonus should my world be of interest to you also. Wheel and Pinion Cutting in Horology by J Malcolm Wild - Probably the definitive in print book on the topic, but covers lots of material outside of your specific needs. About $50, hardback only AFAIK. Be aware that there is also a small paperback booklet that sells for around $12 of the same or a similar name by the same author. The booklet is useful, but not the whole big deal. If you are a miniature gear junkie or technology history lover, this is a really wonderful book. The Watchmakers Lathe by Archie Perkins - Hardback, published by the American Clock And Watchmakers Institute, around $75. If you want to know every quirky miniature machining hack for one off, repair, and limited production work ever conjured up to make watch sized parts and many of the tools and fixtures to do it on a lathe this is the book. Has chapters on making cutters for assorted needs. Superb photos, drawings, and the writing is clear and accurate. I absolutely love this book, it's one of the great contributions to miniature machine work. You just have to see past the fact that it's a watch lathe, and look at the stuff mounted onto and done with the lathe and you suddenly realize that the information does apply to all sorts of stuff you have or need to do. The chapters on tailstock uses just is mind boggling as most lathe owners consider the tailstock to be useful only for drilling or to support a center. All three of these books are available from the NAWCC library, a membership in this organization gives you the ability to check out books via mail. Welcome to the dark side of precision grinding and fabrication - we have cookies, scotch, and aspirin. > Second related question: Trying to manually hone the very small > surfaces is very difficult. One little tilt and an edge is not square > any longer. Any suggestions? Don't stroke the stone or hone with your fingers or wrists, the kinematics is wrong for linear motion. Instead, firmly clamp the work so the surface to be honed is level, position the stone flat on the work, lock your elbows against your side, and move your entire body forwards and back. It is sometimes easier to place a larger stone or hone flat (silicon carbide stuck to a surface plate with a film of water or kerosene is great) and press the flat to be honed down onto the surface. If you set it firmly and press straight down, the work tends not to rock and you can take nice long strokes, again by moving your entire body, not just your forearms or fingers. It takes a little practice to get a feel for it, this is work of risk not certainty as you are hand holding the work or tool. Blocks with hardened rollers such as used for graver sharpening can be useful to establish and maintain angles for honing straight edges and surfaces. > Third question: What do you recommend to buy for stones and diamond > polishing? I got some very cheap diamond stuff but it looks like an > oversized nail file. TIA Bertho Most commercial supply houses, jewelers suppliers, and clock and watchmakers suppliers have various decent to good quality small stones available. I've purchased good small triangular and flat stones from Enco and Travers. In addition to these suppliers stores that cater to woodworkers such as Rockler and Woodcraft have diamond hones and "stones" in assorted grits. For our needs, we want the diamond hones that look like fine sandpaper, not the el-cheapo ones that look like a bit of sawdust landed on wet silver paint :-) Don't overlook silicon carbide paper on flat disks or surface plates for honing, it's wonderful stuff. A search on "Scary Sharp" will turn up some neat info on sharpening chisels with abrasive papers. If you ever need an edge that can plane balsa end grain without tearout this is how you get it. Hope some of this helps, Stan ------- Re: Carbide or HSS? Now Tool Grinding Posted by: "Stephen Ellacott" sellacottx~xxsympatico.ca Date: Thu Sep 24, 2009 7:38 am ((PDT)) Hi Bertho, I will second Stan's comments about Keith Brooke's sharpening jig and diamond wheel. I made the jig and turned an arbour for the wheel. It works very well and saves a lot of time (and material) from the second sharpening on. When I made the jig I added a 10-32 threaded hole in the center of the bottom face which I use to clamp the jig to the drill press table through the slots or center hole so I don't have to use a vise. To hone the tools after grinding, I replace the diamond wheel with a 3" hard felt wheel charged with honing compound and use the jig again. Here is a link for the compound: http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=1&p=32984&cat=1,43072 Note: You may have to singe the felt to get the initial charge of compound to stick - do this outside or your shop will smell like a sheep on fire! Regards, Stephen ------- Re: Carbide or HSS? Now Tool Grinding Posted by: "Ken Cline" clinex~xxfrii.com Date: Thu Sep 24, 2009 8:04 am ((PDT)) You don't need diamond unless you are sharpening carbide tools. Personally, I don't bother sharpening carbide into accurate radii - I look for indexable inserts that meet my needs and just toss them when dull or chipped. Though I occasionally use some cheap 60 degree carbide insert tools on my stock Taig lathe (when I need accurate angles), I'm inclined to agree with the advice in another thread that steel tooling tends to work better. White vitrified aluminum oxide is usually used for sharpening tool steel, without need for hand honing. A fine 100 grit wheel leaves a good finish, but with only one grinder and no desire to frequently change wheels, I seem to get by just fine with 60 grit. If you are having trouble holding an angle with stones, you are more likely to harm the edge of your tool than improve it. But there are plenty of options if you need to hone the edges if you are having trouble, from small chips of oil or water stone, to lapping, and buffing systems. Remember that buffing wheels turn the opposite way compared to grinding wheels. You need a decent tool rest for offhand grinding. Mine is made by Veritas for sharpening woodworking tools, but I have no problem holding 1/4" lathe tools on it. It has a groove that I use for sliding a diamond dressing point to true the wheel. You might find a use for a groove like that to hold sharpening jigs. A reasonably accurate radius could be ground with a jig similar to those used for radius turning. Make sure the dresser and radius jig agree and are indexed off the same tool rest slot, and the radius will always be turned at the correct distance from the wheel surface. It might also be possible to form a radius by shaping the grinding wheel, rather than rotating the tool. I don't know if this is practical, but shaped wheels are used for forming large radii woodworking tools. I'm not sure what you mean by a "surface grinder", but I don't see any need to use a flat grinding surface. Peripheral grinding (on a bench grinder) is all you need for steel tools. ------- Re: Carbide or HSS? Now Tool Grinding Posted by: "Ken Cline" clinex~xxfrii.com Date: Thu Sep 24, 2009 10:17 am ((PDT)) On 24 Sep 2009, at 10:35 AM, Bertho Boman wrote: > Thanks Ken, You're welcome. Especially after putting up with my questions about DC motor controllers a second time. My lack of recall of the first discussion is somewhat shocking, but I suffer from some allergies that sometimes impair my thinking. One more thought about sharpening. My suggestion that 100 grit aluminum oxide is sufficient applies to tools for cutting metal. Cutting wood requires razor sharp, steeply angled cutting edges that have to be honed after grinding. On the other hand, Machinery's handbook states, without explanation, that excessive honing will reduce (carbide) tool life. I would choose whether to hone off the grinder based on your actual need. ------- Re: Carbide or HSS? Now Tool Grinding Posted by: "Colin Reed" reedxukx~xxgmail.com Date: Thu Sep 24, 2009 8:53 am ((PDT)) I also struggled with grinding hss tooling and ended up buying a couple of good quality carbide insert tools in the hope they'd solve my problems. No more grinding but I was never happy with the surface finish on steel compared with hss. I then read about an alternative type of tool holder, on the model-engineer.co.uk website forums, called the *Diamond Tool Holder.* There with many positive reports about quality of finish and ease of resharpening. I ordered the recommended Taig T6 sized holder (which uses 1/8" square HSS tool bits) from Eccentric Engineering in Australia, and have been very pleased with the results so far. http://www.eccentricengineering.com.au/ Model-engineer.co.uk discussion http://www.model-engineer.co.uk/forums/postings.asp?th=29818 There will be an article about making a similar tangential tool holder in the next edition of MEW (no 156 due out in a couple of weeks), which is already viewable online for subscribers. Colin www.reedx.net skype: colin.reed ------- Re: Carbide or HSS? Now Tool Grinding Posted by: "Martin Dobbins" trainnutzx~xxyahoo.com Date: Thu Sep 24, 2009 10:04 am ((PDT)) For those in the U.S. there was an article in the January/February 2009 issue of The Home Shop Machinist on making a tangential toolholder for the Sherline Lathe. The design could easily be adapted to the Taig and maybe improved along the way. Martin ------- Re: Carbide or HSS? Now Tool Grinding Posted by: "Leonard Davis" lleebluesx~xxyahoo.com Date: Thu Sep 24, 2009 8:54 am ((PDT)) Bertho, Sherline has a very good tutorial on grinding tool bits. Go to their site and pull it down. The thing to remember is keep the tool post at about 7* and your cut angle at no more than 10*. As said using a honing stone or Arkansas stone gives a nice finish. L.D. ------- Re: Carbide or HSS? Now Tool Grinding Posted by: "Stephen Ellacott" sellacottx~xxsympatico.ca Date: Thu Sep 24, 2009 9:28 am ((PDT)) Hi Martin, I don't know where you are located but in Canada we get them at Princess Auto for $4.99: http://www.princessauto.com/tools/powertools-accessories/rotary-tool-acc essories/8112385-1-3/4-diamond-cutting-wheel They also ship to USA. Regards, Stephen ------- Re: Carbide or HSS? Now Tool Grinding Posted by: "Daniel Fuller" fullerdjx~xxtx.rr.com Date: Thu Sep 24, 2009 11:25 am ((PDT)) Hi Colin: This might be a dumb question, but can the Diamond Tool Holder do left hand cuts? The video only shows one position for the tool holder and all the cutting on the video is right handed. Thanks in advance, Dan Fuller Carrollton, Texas ------- Re: Carbide or HSS? Now Tool Grinding Posted by: "Colin Reed" reedxukx~xxgmail.com Date: Thu Sep 24, 2009 11:46 am ((PDT)) Hi Dan. I haven't tried a left hand cut but I suspect probably not because of the dogleg in the toolholder - it looks like it would need to be perpendicular to lathe bed to be able to cut a 90 degree lh shoulder. The diy version in the next MEW issue looks like it may be possible as the toolholder is straight, or you could almost certainly mirror the design to make a left hand cutting version. Colin ------- Re: Carbide or HSS? Now Tool Grinding Posted by: "Bertho Boman" boman01x~xxvinland.com Date: Thu Sep 24, 2009 11:15 am ((PDT)) Today's emergency is to cut very small lenses, 3 x 12mm rod shaped, in acrylic so the tool bits should be super sharp. Ideally I should be using single point diamond tools but the couple of companies I called had several weeks lead-time and I need them now. To get the accuracy I need without breaking the bank, I built a custom CNC lathe using the Taig ER-16 spindle. Then I made a custom collet and closer since I got make a bunch of those little lenses. It is neat though to be able to tell it to move 0.01mm and it does. Even neater is that it backs up 0.01mm without any backlash. I got a dial indicator with 0.01 graduations and it clicks them off step by step. Eventually when the smoke settles and I have time to breath I will take some pictures. Bertho ------- Re: [SPAM] RE: [taigtools] Carbide or HSS? Now Tool Grinding Posted by: "Clif Lowry" CLOWRYx~xxSATX.RR.COM Date: Thu Sep 24, 2009 4:09 pm ((PDT)) Stephen: Are plans available for Keith Brook's sharpening jig? Thanks Clif ------- Re: [SPAM] RE: [taigtools] Carbide or HSS? Now Tool Grinding Posted by: "Stephen Ellacott" sellacottx~xxsympatico.ca Date: Thu Sep 24, 2009 7:23 pm ((PDT)) Hi Clif: The plans have a link from Nick's site and are located here: http://www.mechanicalphilosopher.com/kbsharpening.pdf Regards, Stephen ------- [taigtools] What's the real difference bewteen C2 and C5 carbide tipped tools? Posted by: "gehaddad" gehaddadx~xxhotmail.com Date: Fri Oct 16, 2009 10:27 am ((PDT)) Is it the cutting angles or the actual material? And, which ones do you guys use for cast iron, steel, brass, alum alloy? Thanks, George ------- Re: What's the real difference bewteen C2 and C5 carbide tipped tool Posted by: "Roy" dchobbyx~xxlive.com Date: Fri Oct 16, 2009 2:02 pm ((PDT)) Here is a link explaining some of the differences n grades of carbide. http://www.horizoncarbide.com/pdfs/Carbide_Grades.pdf Books have been written on the subject. Roy ------- Re: What's the real difference bewteen C2 and C5 carbide tipped tool Posted by: "Michael Fagan" woodworker88x~xxgmail.com Date: Fri Oct 16, 2009 2:48 pm ((PDT)) It's the grade of the carbide material. C2 is for aluminum, soft steel, and cast iron. C6 is for steel and other harder or more abrasive materials. ------- Re: Dovetail [myfordlathes] Posted by: "J R Slack" anvilx~xxnwlink.com Date: Wed Oct 28, 2009 12:27 am ((PDT)) On Tue, 27 Oct 2009 22:30:07 -0000, Stephen wrote: >Hadn't thought of that. I think I have a flycutter somewhere -- not >sure how large it is but I'll dig it out. If you have a 4-jaw and a stubby bit of HSS, you've got a flycutter. Grind the bit with appropriate clearances and grab it offset in the 4-jaw. Milling and moving can often leave a tiny step, less so with a flycutter. Either way, a bit of draw filing can work wonders. Regards, Jack JAX #1 Rule Of Physics: Don't confuse "Don't Know How" with "Can't Be Done" Don't take that as a criticism ------- Re: Dovetail Posted by: "Alan Moore" a.j.moorex~xxbtinternet.com Date: Wed Oct 28, 2009 7:34 am ((PDT)) Hmm, not sure about that idea. On my 4 jaw chuck each jaw only travels a few millimetres beyond the centreline before it runs out of engagement with its screw, so the offset I could get for a flycutter bit would be minimal. Regards, Alan ------- Re: Dovetail Posted by: "Bob Minchin" bob.minchinx~xxntlworld.com Date: Wed Oct 28, 2009 7:43 am ((PDT)) Can't you reverse some of the jaws?? Bob ------- Re: Dovetail Posted by: "Alan Moore" a.j.moorex~xxbtinternet.com Date: Wed Oct 28, 2009 8:14 am ((PDT)) On my chuck (A TOS chuck supplied at vast expense by Myford) it doesn't matter which way the jaws are turned, they still only go about 6mm past the chuck centreline. Regards, Alan ------- Re: Dovetail Posted by: "Tim Ostley" Tim.Ostleyx~xxgooglemail.com Date: Wed Oct 28, 2009 7:53 am ((PDT)) You can also drill and tap your stub of MS and bolt it to the faceplate - takes longer to set up but will give you a greater sweep. Tim ------- Re: Dovetail Posted by: "Steve Ward" zx12x~xxbtinternet.com zx12x~xxbtopenworld.com Date: Wed Oct 28, 2009 8:01 am ((PDT)) What I do, is run two opposing jaws together and pin the 'item' with one of the other jaws (essentially making it a 3 jaw chuck). The fourth jaw I then wind out towards the outside to balance the chuck. This usually gives a couple of inches swing - depending on the diameter of the flycutter mount. ------- Re: Dovetail Posted by: "durnfjmx~xxaol.com" Date: Wed Oct 28, 2009 1:17 pm ((PDT)) OK, when I suggested flycutting using the 4jaw and/or faceplate, I guessed that it was not a technique that was widely used. For the 4jaw, a hss lathe tool can be clamped at an angle between 2 jaws, pointing out from the center of the chuck towards (or even past) the periphery of the chuck. The other 2 jaws are used to support the tool, rather than to clamp it - try some setups, and use small cuts - it can be very useful. For the faceplate, make a block of some type that can be mounted on the faceplate at varying cutting radii, which can hold a shortened hss lathe tool to stick out from the block. You will probably want to bolt something on the opposite side of the faceplate to act as a counterbalance. You will need to grind the tips of the tools somewhat differently to "normal" lathe tools, but use similar clearance angles, and cutting speeds to you would use in the lathe. Use the same rules for cutting speeds, clearance angles, toprakes, rounded points etc., that you use on your lathe tools to start with - and progress from there. These setups often perform much better than the usual commercial flycutters because there is so much more inertia for the tool, which gives a less "clunky" operation, and a much better finish. This is all probably becoming of diminishing use to the OP, but the technique is one I have used in lots of applications when the workpiece is "too big" for the Myford - well, we all push the limits, don't we? MikeD in very dark (now) Pembrokeshire ------- Re: Dovetail Posted by: "steamcat" steamcatx~xxshaw.ca Date: Wed Oct 28, 2009 3:11 pm ((PDT)) Another flycutting technique is described in George Thomas' book "Workshop Techniques" where he is machining the faces of the pillar tool arms. He takes a piece of square or rectangular bar stock and holds it across the face of a 4 jaw chuck. There's a round HSS cutter in each end pointing out towards the tailstock and held in place with set screws. He even suggests having one cutter sticking out slightly more than the other so one makes a roughing cut while the other one makes a finishing cut. Sounds like a good idea to me and I hope to try it soon on the pillar arms. ------- Re: Which ER16 Collet for #29 Drill? [taigtools] Posted by: "Mike Nicewonger" twmasterx~xxtwmaster.com Date: Sun Nov 22, 2009 2:05 pm ((PST)) On Nov 22, 2009, at 4:51 PM, Jack wrote: > The #29 drill (0.136") that I use for tapping 8-32 in aluminum > doesn't seem to fit any of the ER16 collets that came with the > mill. The 3/16" doesn't tighten enough, and the 1/8" is too small > to take the bit. What size collet whould I be using for this, and > where can I get one? Jack: You can use a 5/32 collet. Part number 1041ER-I. Nick Carter sells them. $9.85 less 10% www.cartertools.com/catalog.html Mike N ------- Re: Which ER16 Collet for #29 Drill? Posted by: "Jack" tech.writerx~xxearthlink.net Date: Sun Nov 22, 2009 3:28 pm ((PST)) Yep, just found this at DeArmond Tool: ER16 Collets 1/16" .062-.043 3/32" .093-.054 1/8" .125-.086 5/32" .156-.117 3/16" .187-.148 7/32" .218-.179 1/4" .250-.211 9/32" .281-.242 5/16" .312-.273 11/32" .343-.304 3/8" .375-.336 ------- [FLAT ON ENDMILL SHANK TO PREVENT CHANGE IN DEPTH OF CUT] Re: Home Position, Tool Length Setup with EMC2 [SherlineCNC] Posted by: "Dave Hylands" dhylandsx~xxgmail.com Date: Mon Feb 15, 2010 11:16 am ((PST)) >> Always pull the end mill down against the shoulder of the flat >> and then tighten the setscrew. Then it can't drop down. This is >> an exception to the rule to keep the length of the cutter as short >> as possible. Cheers, Al >> And that setscrew NEEDS to be tight, as if it is not real >> tight, the end mill will pull itself down, making your cut deeper >> and deeper as time goes on. On Mon, Feb 15, 2010, Tom Wade wrote: > Most of my end mills do NOT have a flat for the setscrew. Hi Tom: In that case, I just use my grinder and add one. It doesn't need to be very big, and it doesn't need to be perfect. I've had endmills pulled out of their holders, so the only way I'll use an endmill with no flat is when using a milling collet. Dave Hylands Shuswap, BC, Canada http://www.DaveHylands.com/ ------- Re: Home Position, Tool Length Setup with EMC2 Posted by: "Dave Hylands" dhylandsx~xxgmail.com Date: Mon Feb 15, 2010 11:41 am ((PST)) On Mon, Feb 15, 2010, Tom Wade wrote: > The cutters which don't have flats are, for the most part, > carbide cutters. And I don't have a diamond wheel. Hi Tom, Ahhh. Yeah that would pose a problem. I've found that I mostly use milling collets now and use 1/4" as my largest endmill. The milling collet gives a more rigid setup, and the cutters have less runout than with an endmill holder. I also haven't experienced any pullout when using the milling collets. Dave Hylands Shuswap, BC, Canada http://www.DaveHylands.com/ ------- Shear bit grind [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: "mf205i" mf205ix~xxyahoo.com Date: Wed Feb 17, 2010 1:02 am ((PST)) This one goes out to Docn8as. I wanted to thank you for the tip on the shear grind. I tried it in the past, but I didn't have much success. This evening I was making a part out of some A36 and I tried it again with 20 degrees off of vertical. The finish looked like the part came off a grinder, an absolutely unbelievable finish for mild steel. In 40+ years of doing this I had never heard about this grind. It is so easy and the results are so good that I find it a puzzle that it is not widely used. Thanks again, Mike ------- NOTE TO FILE: Doc's shear grind has been discussed before -- most recently found in this file in the conversation titled: Re: Gear question [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: "doc" n8as1x~xxaol.com Date: Mon Jun 1, 2009 6:17 pm ((PDT)) There are more of his discussions about the shear grind in the file here called Metal Shaper Bits and Toolholders. The most recent was titled: Re: Hello everyone from italy Posted by: "doc" n8as1x~xxaol.com docn8as Date: Tue Dec 8, 2009 6:26 pm ((PST)) Remember, metal shapers use many bits that are identical to lathe ones, so reading that file will be of help to metal lathe owners. ------- More on the shear bit [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: "dwaynekleck" dwaynekleckx~xxyahoo.com Date: Wed Feb 24, 2010 11:32 am ((PST)) I to had a "tough time" seeing the shear bit in my mind. On 21 Feb Bill Stietenroth posted in message number 61306 a web site that has a great picture. I have taken the liberty of re-posting that web site so the ones who missed it have more chance and thanks to Bill from all of us. http://www.gadgetbuilder.com/VerticalShearBit.html Dwayne ------- Re: More on the shear bit Posted by: "Scott Henion" shenionx~xxshdesigns.org Date: Wed Feb 24, 2010 11:49 am ((PST)) Do want to try that form. My lathe came with two variations on a shear bit: http://shdesigns.org/Craftsman-12x36/images/bits.jpg The left one is rounded at the tip (about 1/4" diameter.) However, it also has the top at an angle. This helps prevent chatter. Does a real nice finish. The tool on the left _is_ slanted, but only about 20 degrees. Just did not show well in the pic. It will cut in both directions, but does much better in one way. Scott G. Henion http://shdesigns.org/Craftsman-12x36/ ------- Re: More on the shear bit Posted by: "William Abernathy" williamx~xxinch.com Date: Wed Feb 24, 2010 1:49 pm ((PST)) The image on the left is not a shear bit, it's a conventional finishing tool. Nothing wrong with that -- it's a good way to get a good finish. It also cuts in both directions, which can save a little time. The shear tool puts a slanted cutting surface up against the work tangentially. Unlike the horizontally-disposed finishing tool, the shear tool does not have to be "on center" because the cutting edge meets the work along a vertical axis. Thus, as the work rotates, it runs into the tool a little above center, and leaves it a little below center. All it runs into along the way is edge. The image at: http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j276/yeathatshim/P2230010.jpg may provide better insight, as it shows the shear bit in its relation to the work. William A. ------- indexable carbide cutters [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: "redragonnet" redragonnetx~xxyahoo.com Date: Thu Feb 18, 2010 8:10 pm ((PST)) I get confused on the lettering system for indexable carbide bits? I understand that the first letter is for the cutter shape and the second letter is for the rake -- positive or negative. However sometimes the second letter is C? What does that mean? Also does anyone know a good site that explains the system in understandable terms? Norm, Camillus, NY ------- indexable carbide cutters Posted by: "Daniel Nelson" djnx~xxieee.org Date: Thu Feb 18, 2010 8:13 pm ((PST)) Try: http://www.anconline.com/nomenclatures/nomenclatureinserts.htm Regards, Daniel J. Nelson ------- Re: indexable carbide cutters Posted by: "Scott Henion" shenionx~xxshdesigns.org Date: Thu Feb 18, 2010 8:15 pm ((PST)) Here's a description: http://www.carbidedepot.com/formulas-insert-d.htm Enco has one in their catalog also. Scott G. Henion http://shdesigns.org/Craftsman-12x36/ ------- Lathe How To Site [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: "c_h_a_r_t_n_y" mgibsonx~xxstny.rr.com Date: Sat Feb 27, 2010 7:53 am ((PST)) http://www.americanmachinetools.com/how_to_use_a_lathe.htm Good pictures of tool bit shapes and angles. Also if you use the lantern tool holder, the tool holders have different angles of bit incline. Makes a difference. Mine for the 618 lathe are 7 degrees and 14 degrees. The 7 is original and the 14 is Armstrong holders. The web page shows 20 degree holders. And of course, with the rocker you make this angle different to get on center. chart ------- Lathe How To Site [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: "c_h_a_r_t_n_y" mgibsonx~xxstny.rr.com Date: Sat Feb 27, 2010 7:53 am ((PST)) http://www.americanmachinetools.com/how_to_use_a_lathe.htm Good pictures of tool bit shapes and angles. Also if you use the lantern tool holder, the tool holders have different angles of bit incline. Makes a difference. Mine for the 618 lathe are 7 degrees and 14 degrees. The 7 is original and the 14 is Armstrong holders. The web page shows 20 degree holders. And of course, with the rocker you make this angle different to get on center. chart ------- NOTE TO FILE: The above webpage (and a second webpage) has a detailed Army manual on how to use a metal lathe. ------- More on making the right lathe bit for the job... [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: "dougrl3" dougrl3x~xxaol.com Date: Sat Feb 27, 2010 1:18 pm ((PST)) Here is an interesting article by Jack Payne from the December 1964 Popular Science magazine. This provides information on grinding your own bits and specialty tools as well as a "Chip-Breaker Groove" that he promotes in the tooling. Has anyone made these type bits and what did you think with the incorporated groove? - waste of time or worth the effort? See pages 150-154 http://books.google.com/books?id=WCYDAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA150&lpg=PA150 &dq=Jack+Payne+lathe+tool&source=bl&ots=uNVmTUVgFr&sig=TrOUVI6uS7 jPeGPwx9oGN-MCZa8&hl=en&ei=PIqJS9uHOsO3lAfx85zPAQ&sa=X&oi=book_res ult&ct=result&resnum=3&ved=0CBEQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=Jack%20Payne%20 lathe%20tool&f=false Doug ------- Re: More on making the right lathe bit for the job... Posted by: "Scott Henion" shenionx~xxshdesigns.org Date: Sat Feb 27, 2010 1:32 pm ((PST)) My carbide inserts have the chip breaker groove; one reason I prefer them. Nice on things like stainless that work harden, those long hard strips get in the way. I will try a V-groove on my parting tool to fold cuttings but don't have much of an issue now. Scott G. Henion http://shdesigns.org/Craftsman-12x36/ ------- Re: More on making the right lathe bit for the job... Posted by: "Rexarino" rexarinox~xxgmail.com Date: Sat Feb 27, 2010 4:14 pm ((PST)) Worth the effort, especially for "gummy" material. If you don't have a chip breaker, the strings of swarf off the tool can become an unwieldy mass of flying sharp-edged metal that can easily get wrapped around the work, or the chuck, or the operator. Also a good idea when turning plastic. Rex ------- Re: More on making the right lathe bit for the job... Posted by: "Ron Gerlach" r7734gx~xxhotmail.com Date: Sat Feb 27, 2010 4:40 pm ((PST)) Doug: I agree with Rex. A good chip breaker and the proper relief/rake angles make all the difference turning gummy materials like the typical CRS bar stock that is widely used for a variety of projects. I used my surface grinder to make a few tools, using a radius dressed wheel to make a nice deep chip breaker groove. I have used this tool on all kinds of materials and it produces a finer finish than any of my other tools especially on CRS. Go for it. RonG ------- how to use collets [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: "Bruce Morton" brucemortonx~xxsbcglobal.net Date: Tue Apr 27, 2010 6:54 am ((PDT)) I plan to make nickel silver fly rod ferrules with my lathe and accuracy of the work is of utmost importance, otherwise the work is useless. I'm being advised that it is better for this work to be held in sized collets rather than the three jaw chuck. I want to hold a 3/8 piece of barstock...in a collet...for cuts requiring utmost precision. I can find the collet I need but how is this held in the lathe. I think I need a "draw in collet attachment" that goes into the Morse taper of the headstock. Is this what I need to hold a collet in my lathe? Where do I source this sort of collet holder? Oh, and I don't want to pay $500 for some fancy attachment...I need a cheap solution. ------- Re: how to use collets Posted by: "Russ Kepler" russx~xxkepler-eng.com Date: Tue Apr 27, 2010 7:08 am ((PDT)) > I'm being advised that it is better for this work to be held in sized > collets rather than the three jaw chuck. If you're making outside and inside cuts and all the cuts without rechucking there isn't going to be any difference between using a collet for the work and a chuck. The difference between them is that the collet (usually) is better centered than the 3 jaw, and the centering holds better between collets than the scroll on the 3 jaw chuck. But if you chuck the work once and make all the cuts at once it doesn't really matter how far from center the work starts as it always ends up dead on center. You need to say if you're chucking short pieces that don't enter the lathe spindle or chucking bar that needs to pass through the spindle. It would help to know the maximum bar size. There are collets chucks appropriate for all different situations. > Oh, and I dont want to pay $500 for some fancy attachment...I need a cheap > solution. I'm sure that you can get what you want for that price. ------- Re: how to use collets Posted by: "jo barden" jobarden422x~xxmsn.com Date: Tue Apr 27, 2010 7:12 am ((PDT)) I think you need 3AT collets and draw bar if memory serves although you could go down 3MT collets. I got mine off Ebay for £20 ish including delivery from Hong Kong. I think it was ctl tools or similar but you still need a drawbar. I made mine out of threaded rod and sawn to length, washer and nyloc and away. Jon ------- Re: how to use collets Posted by: "William Rutiser" wruyahoo05x~xxcomcast.net Date: Tue Apr 27, 2010 8:00 am ((PDT)) A few thoughts: As Russ pointed out, a 3-jaw chuck will work as well as a collet if you can turn all critical surfaces at one setting. Rechucking in a 3-jaw might be acceptable for some second operations such as facing a cut off part. I know very little about fly rods. I assume the ferrules are the bits for the joints between sections. As I visualize these, there is a critical OD on one end a critical ID on the other. Consider making arbors to hold the parts by the finished inner diameter to finish the outsides. Another possiblity was described in Model Engineering years ago. The author called them "chullets". These were essentially shouldered bushings with splits like collets held in a 4 jaw chuck. Once set up and centered they should be pretty accurate. Assuming you are making more than a few of these, you might consider a chuck with soft jaws or custom face plate fixtures. Bill ------- Re: how to use collets Posted by: "Glenn N" sleykinx~xxcharter.net Date: Tue Apr 27, 2010 8:26 am ((PDT)) While you can buy a collet set and closer for the Atlas lathe, there are options that are equally accurate. You can make what is sometimes referred to as a pot chuck. For your application I would get some 1/2" hex bar stock, mark one side and match mark the chuck jaw that it lines up with (for future reference). Drill/bore to 3/8", and slit it lengthwise along one of the points or a side that won't be on a jaw. If you need to set the work at a constant depth, use round bar and turn it down a bit to leave a flange to stop it in the 3 jaw. Bore it to insertion depth. drop down a size or two in drill bit and bore through. Slit it and go. You can get fancy and slit most of the way from each end on alternate sides to get more range. Whatever workholding device you use be sure to make some practice parts out of cheap material. Turning solid nickle silver barstock into swarf sounds expensive. The key to making this work with accuracy and repeatability is to keep the same orientation in your 3 jaw. Glenn ------- Re: how to use collets Posted by: "VTatlasLathex~xxcs.com" Date: Tue Apr 27, 2010 11:15 am ((PDT)) I've made thousands of ferrules over the years. Good ferrules are a precise item -- you need to be able to hold the female bore to no more than a few tenths of tolerance. To do it right you will need a set of collets from 9/64" thru 3/8" in 1/64" increments. There is a lot of rechucking in ferrule making, and were dealing with thin walled non ferrous material -- best gripped with a collet. I would invest in a good 5C collet chuck. Although the initial investment is more expensive, overall it is cheaper because the 5C is the most widely used collet. In addition collet stops, pot, emergency, and expanding collets are readily available if you decide to make reel seat hardware. The next best method would be a 3C draw in collet arrangement. Tools For Cheap sells the setup for around $150 -- less collets of course. Alternately you could just buy the 3c collet adapter ($50 or so) and machine your own drawbar and thread protector/ejector. It is a good simple lathe project, that you should be skilled enough to do before even attempting ferrule making. Dave ------- Re: how to use collets Posted by: "jmartin957x~xxaol.com" Date: Tue Apr 27, 2010 12:26 pm ((PDT)) The cheapest solution would be Morse taper collets. These fit right into your spindle bore, with no need for an adapter. These are typically threaded on the inside, which means you use a solid draw bar to tighten them. Solid draw bar means you can't extend the workpiece back through the spindle. Next would be collets that fit into an adapter, inside the spindle. Assuming that you have a 12" lathe, 3C collets will fit. They are externally threaded, so you use them with a draw tube instead of a draw bar. The hollow draw tube will pass workpieces up to 1/2", so you can work with long bars. Then you have the collets which are too large for the spindle bore, and are held by an adapter/chuck mounted on the spindle threads. 5C collets would be typical. Or one of the ER or TG series. The collet is closed by a nut bearing against the collet nose, and you can pass the workpiece through the collet and spindle. More overhang than the types held inside the spindle. John Martin ------- Re: how to use collets Posted by: "PeterH" peterh5322x~xxrattlebrain.com Date: Tue Apr 27, 2010 12:50 pm ((PDT)) Take an un-hardened MT adapter (5MT or 3MT to MT) and bore it for 3C collets. Make the drawtube from DOM tubing. ------- 5c collets in a 4 jaw chuck [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: "Bruce Morton" brucemortonx~xxsbcglobal.net Date: Sat May 1, 2010 9:58 am ((PDT)) I'm adrift in the confusing land of collets. For my Craftsman 101.07403 lathe I may want to use 5c collets for turning fly rod ferrules. I'll be turning small diameter tubing that requires extreme precision. I have a very nice 4 jaw chuck that I have never used..I always go to the three jaw for work that doesn't have to be re-chucked. My question is, could I purchase a square collet block with closer for 5c collets. I'm seeing a price of $35 on Amazon...and then "dial in" the closer to dead nuts and just leave it there and make my 4 jaw chuck into a dedicated 5c collet chuck? Or am I just completely not understanding how to set up for collets. I'm on a TIGHT budget...I cant be spending hundreds of dollars to "do it right". Thanks for everyone's help ...this is a great forum. ------- Re: 5c collets in a 4 jaw chuck Posted by: "Michael Fagan" woodworker88x~xxgmail.com Date: Sat May 1, 2010 10:30 am ((PDT)) The problem with the 5C collet blocks is that the closer is a nut on the back of the block. You couldn't change the part without removing it from the chuck every single time. Your best bet for your work is probably to either use 3C or 3MT collets with a homemade drawbar or drawtube. ------- Re: 5c collets in a 4 jaw chuck Posted by: "PeterH" peterh5322x~xxrattlebrain.com Date: Sat May 1, 2010 11:03 am ((PDT)) On May 1, 2010, Michael Fagan wrote: > Your best bet for your work is probably to either use > 3C or 3MT collets with a homemade drawbar or drawtube. OR ... Make a drawbar with a nut on the end, and use the square collet block in a 4-jaw as described before. A removable tommy bar on the opposite end for a closer would be appropriate. If one had a 6-jaw with an adjust-true feature, then the hex block which usually come in the same set of collet blocks could also be used in the same way. Similarly, if one had a 3-jaw with an adjust-true feature, then the hex block which usually come in the same set of collet blocks could also be used in the same way. As the OP stated he is doing ferrule work, and requires only a limited range of sizes, 3MT collets and a simple drawbar might make the most sense. Or, an un-hardened MT adapter from the spindle to and bored and finish machined to accept 3C collets. Or, an ER-type collet chuck, made using "found" materials for the body and a factory nut for the closer. The alternatives are almost endless. ------- Re: 5c collets in a 4 jaw chuck Posted by: "n8as1x~xxaol.com" docn8as Date: Sat May 1, 2010 4:04 pm ((PDT)) the vertical 5C collet fixture can be bolted to a faceplate ...the thrded collet closing bar wud need to be replaced by a non thrded tommy bar....i have one from some years back bought for that purpose, but after fitting 3 jaw chucks that are 1 1/4 thou tir, the necessity didnt seem pressing ..i still have a set of 3 AT collets, collecting a lot of dirt, that are sometimes pressed into service when advantageous best wishes docn8as ------- Re: 5c collets in a 4 jaw chuck Posted by: "Charlie Gallo" Charliex~xxTheGallos.com Date: Sat May 1, 2010 6:26 pm ((PDT)) Bruce: Dumb question - what is the MAXIMUM size ferrule you going to clamp up? For fly rods, I can't see it going over 1/2". If so, you should be able to pick up a drawtube, adaptor, and the necessary 3AT collets cheap enough (AFAIK, Sobel's is gone, or I would have said to call him - he had piles of them.) Getting 3AT collets in 1/16ths is easy - getting the 32nds isn't TOO hard - getting the 64ths gets fun - I'm still missing one or 2 sizes, but then again, I haven't needed them - if I ever DO, you can still order them from Hardinge (and have a heart attack when you get the price - I DID spend for brand new 3/8" and 1/2" collets because most I had seen were beat, and I was doing production work, and it was worth it not to get sprung units (I had found a NICE condition 1/4") 73 de KG2V ------- Re: 5c collets in a 4 jaw chuck Posted by: "Bruce Morton" brucemortonx~xxsbcglobal.net Date: Sat May 1, 2010 8:55 pm ((PDT)) charlie...thanks for the personal response...im really struggling trying to figure out the best way to go on the collets. fly rod ferrules are rarely over 3/8". precision is key. we size them by 64ths so im planning to make some split bushings to fill in where i either cant or dont want to purchase the proper collet. i dont need pass thru...the ferrules are quite short. i do like the idea of keeping to the "original" style of collet and that seems to be the 3at collet. so...im not sure which way ill go. i do appreciate your help... regards bruce ------- Re: 5c collets in a 4 jaw chuck Posted by: "stephen_s_wood" stephen_s_woodx~xxyahoo.com Date: Sun May 2, 2010 8:19 am ((PDT)) The simplest way to go does seem to be keeping to the "original" style of collet, which on my Atlas QC-54 is 3MT rather than 3AT. Although does carry 3MT collets, they seem to be offered in increments of 1/16" rather than 1/64". The drawbar for their 3MT collets requires little more than a trip to the local hardware store for a longish 3/8 UNC bolt, fender washers, and a spacer. It is likely - but check first - that you can easily find sets of 3ATs and 3Cs in 1/32" increments, but these require adapters. Perhaps an ER-32 chuck with a 3MT shank would be in order, but the chucks themselves are not cheap. ------- [atlas_craftsman Group] [Subject really is TOOL BIT GRINDING] Re: Questions on Craftsman 6" 101.21400 New to the Group Posted by: "David Beierl" dbeierlx~xxattglobal.net Date: Sat May 22, 2010 7:39 am ((PDT)) At 08:32 AM 5/22/2010, pep wrote: >Total Newbie to this and I'm sure I'll have fun attempting to grind >my first set of HSS bits to use. Dear Pep, Call up Clausing Industrial, ask for Atlas parts dept, and give them $25 +ship for the Atlas Manual of Lathe Operations. It's arguably the best one out there, miles ahead of the famous South Bend book, and it's specifically for our lathes. It has a whole (short) chapter on grinding tools -- always bear in mind that the given top profiles assume you'll be using the Atlas tool holders which have ?15-degree? ?more? top rake built in to the holder. Then look up jlindustrial.com or mscdirect.com or any woodworking supply store and get a white (ruby if it's a woodworking place) grade K/M/N 120-grit wheel for your grinder and a dressing tool if you haven't got one. If you also get a 60-grit one the work will go faster. When they come, dress them true so you can touch a workpiece to the wheel without it bouncing around. This may be the hardest part to start with, because unless the wheel is already very close to true it will try to set up an oscillatory couple with the dressing tool and your arm. If it does you can dress all day and never get there. Adding five or ten pounds of lead or steel to the package (tape or hold it to the dressing tool) will make it a lot harder for the wheel to bounce the tool away -- once it's true you shouldn't need the weight to maintain it. With a wheel dresser you have to use enough pressure so the tool spins smoothly and doesn't chatter. It will leave a faster-cutting surface than a carbide stick dresser, because it tears entire grains out of the wheel instead of shearing the existing ones. Don't even think about a diamond dresser, there's no way I'm aware of to use one effectively by hand. You might buy one though; it's kind of neat to have a quarter- or half-carat diamond to casually toss from hand to hand. Dress often and you won't have to dress heavily -- before each use is not too often. Always move the work from side to side to wear the wheel evenly and minimize dressing. While you're waiting for them, go to http://www.sherline.com/grinding.htm, print that and read it and figure out what you have to do to establish a seven-degree slope on your grinder rest. I used a bit of computer chassis with a right-angle bend and a very small C-clamp to attach it to my existing rest, but Lee Valley will sell you a much fancier rig for $100 or so... Don't dip an HSS bit in water to cool it. It doesn't need it and it's rumored that the thermal shock may possibly start some micro cracks. Do be prepared for the likelihood that the blank will get a lot hotter than your bare fingers want to touch; it's easier to make finish grinds in a single pass. For finish work round the tool point slightly with a few strokes of a stone, then hone the edges to a mirror finish or as close as you can. You can't get a cut that's smoother than your tool, ever. Remember that doing this to a wheel-ground tool will reduce your side rake slightly. Bear *closely* in mind that it only takes a second or two to round over an edge that you just spent ten minutes on, and that will take another ten to recover. Figures not exact but you get the idea. This particular inexorable Truth is one where I tend to believe that God was being just the slightest bit malicious when He set up the rules of geometry. Off the subject, but: A regular twist drill is a demon in brass. It will snatch, wander, jam and possibly break. To tame it, stone a tiny flat on the cutting lips, so that the rake angle where the drill actually engages the work is zero degrees. You won't believe the difference. I keep a box for brass drills -- if I need a new size I fix a regular one and then it goes in the box. Protect your tapers -- keep them clean of even the tiniest chips, and free of oil. A brass shotgun cleaning brush and rod in the appropriate size is excellent for scrubbing them out, and brake cleaner (you can choose between the flammable-vapors one or the anesthetic-vapors one, though they express it oppositely on the can) spritzed into (or on a wiping rag and onto) a taper will get any oil off in a hurry. If you don't need the spindle hole for a job, and particularly if you're through-boring a part, a wad of paper towel stuffed in the end will save you lots of time. Always store your chuck(s) with the working end down, so that chips won't trickle down into the mounting thread. Keep the spindle thread and shoulder rigorously free of chips, and the corresponding chuck parts as well, or you'll always be wondering why the chuck doesn't spin quite true, or why it's stuck hard onto the spindle. Stuck chucks are a beast -- in the worst case you have to literally turn away the chuck or its backplate. Be very thoughtful how much force you exert on a locked back gear -- if you strip teeth off the bull gear there will be tears. One method that can work almost magically is to chuck some hex stock and hit it (with the spindle turning free) with an air impact wrench. A Post-It note is four thou (.004") thick. Check out www.atlas-press.com/servicebulletins.htm for some very useful stuff, and print it. The home page is presently just a stub, but for now at least the files are still there at this page. Note that "leveling" a lathe actually means taking out any twist in the bed, so it will cut straight. A convenient way to do this is to very accurately level it along and across the bed at both ends; but if you don't want to spend say $80-200 for a sufficiently sensitive level, check out Rollie's Dad's method -- there's a post here within the last week or so giving a link that describes it. Don't skimp on mounting rigidity -- for bench mounting Atlas specify a bench that is "solidly built, well braced and with a good dry lumber top *at least two inches thick*." Edge-glued hard maple is good lumber, and for our six-inchers I think you can get away with 1 1/2" thickness. They go on to say "suggested that the top bo