------------------------------------------------------------------ This is just one of some 80 files about machining and metalworking and useful workshop subjects that can be read at: http://www.janellestudio.com/metal/index.html ------------------------------------------------------------------ This is one of two files on this site giving many practical tips for putting a fine finish onto metal. "Finish and Polish" is aimed at bringing metal projects or parts to a smooth or otherwise appropriate surface texture, and discusses some of the finishes that might be applied -- for any combination of durability or protection or appearance. Originally some tips were also added for marking metal (for logos or maker identification or dial numbers or ...). This information including etching was moved to the file here called "Layout Marking or Printing". "Finish for Tools" mainly discusses surface preparation and finishes appropriate for our machines or tools. It is suggested that you also look through the "Cleaning Tips" file to obtain advice on cleaning items preparatory to finishing. The "Lubricants General" file will provide ideas on products that will make your tools or projects work more efficiently, minimize wear, and protect them from the elements. If you got to this file directly from my HOME PAGE, return there by using your browser's back button. BUT if you came to this file as the result of a web search engine, see many additional files on my home page Machining and Metalworking at Home http://www.janellestudio.com/metal/index.html SAFETY WARNING BEWARE: DO NOT ASSUME that any subject matter or procedure or process is safe or correct or appropriate just because it was mentioned in a news/user group or was included in these files or on this site or on any other web site or was published in a magazine or book or video. Working with metals and machinery and chemicals and electrical equipment is inherently dangerous. Wear safety devices and clothing as appropriate. Remove watches, rings, and jewellery -- and secure or remove loose clothing -- before operating any machine. Read, understand and follow the latest operating procedures and safety instructions provided by the manufacturer of your machine or tool or product. If you do not have those most recent official instructions, acquire a copy through the manufacturer before operating or using their product. Where the company no longer exists, use the appropriate news or user group to locate an official copy. Be careful -- original instructions may not meet current safety standards. Updated safety information and operating instructions may also be available through a local club, a local professional in the trade, a local business, or an appropriate government agency. In every case, use your common sense before beginning or taking the next step; and do not proceed if you have any questions or doubts about any procedure, or the safety of any procedure. Follow all laws and codes, and employ certified or licenced professionals as required by those laws or codes. Hazardous tasks beyond your competence or expertise should also be contracted to professionals. Let's be really careful out there. (c) Copyright 2003 - 2014 Machining and Metalworking at Home The form of the collected work in this text file (including editing, additions, and notes) is copyrighted and this file is not to be reproduced by any means, including electronic, without written permission except for strictly personal use. ============================================================================ Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 16:38:16 -0000 From: gavin.Eyrex~xxrsl.com Subject: Polishing Well my collection of small connecting rods is gradually increasing - and they now have accurate 46.72" radius curves :D. My next question relates to cleaning up the parts. I have removed all the machining marks with some very fine swiss cut needle files, but trying to remove the file scratches with various grades of wet and dry prior to buffing with the Dremel is driving me crazy. Any suggestions please? Gavin Eyre Gavin.Eyrex~xxrsl.com ------- Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 10:59:33 -0600 From: Ron Roske Subject: Re: Polishing Popsicle sticks! I always keep some on hand. They can be easily cut to the needed shape, charged with whatever grinding/polishing compound needed and are cheeeep! Don't know if I can explain this real well or not, but will give it a try. I came up with this idea while working on jewelry and then on clocks. There never seemed to be a "right" tool on hand to polish certain areas that needed detailing. While a jewelers motorized hand piece or Dremel have their place and will work wonders in some areas, they just won't get into all of the nooks and crannies. I cut, carve, sand or shape the end of the stick to conform to the shape of the area that I need to clean up/polish/or whatever. Then I rub the stick on a bar of the appropriate compound to embed some of the compound into the wood and this is called "charging". This allows me to easily get into areas that were previously a pain to get to and gives me the control to apply the amount of force that is needed for that particular job and material. Craft sticks work well (costs around $3 for a lifetime supply size package) or you can obtain these the hard way. 1. Go to the store 2. Buy popsicles or fudgesicles 3. Take them home 4. Use an appropriate method for removing the excess material that surrounds the stick. 5. Dry the stick Some may find this to be a cumbersome procedure, but I find it enjoyable. Quick, simple, easy and inexpensive.. Another tool along this line are small (1/4"x1/4"x6") spring loaded plastic sticks (can't remember exactly what they are called) that you put 1/4" bands of sandpaper around the ends. These give you a rounded end, a wedge shaped end and a flat area to sand with. When one area of the sand paper gets worn, you just rotate the band a bit and you have a fresh surface to work with. Several grits are available and the sticks come in assorted colors so that you can put a different grit on each and makes for easy identification. These are available at jewelry supply houses. Hope that I have explained rather than confused... Ron ------- Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 10:35:03 -0800 From: "Marcus" Subject: Re: Polishing Hi Gavin: If you want to remove those scratches efficiently, the best way is to use moldmaker's polishing stones. A popular brand is Gesswein, another is Norton. Call a local toolroom, and find out where they are getting theirs. A box of each of 240, 300, 400, and 600 grit will do you nicely for a long time. The stones are soft, and can be shaped on an ordinary bench grinder. Use them with a light oil, instead of kerosene (too smelly) My preference is a product called A9 aluminum cutting fluid. It is made by Relton and is widely available. It is safe to get on your hands and smells pleasant. The best way to use the stones, is not to file out the milling marks, but to begin stoning right away. The stones leave scratches that are far less deep than file marks. I realize that you have already filed on the parts; not a big deal, but it will take you longer to clean up the deep scratches that files typically leave. Cheers Marcus ------- Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 10:08:07 -0800 From: "Yasmiin Davis" Subject: RE: Polishing You can probably get your desired results with craytex -- or rubber based abrasive points. Dremel only sells a couple one of which is small and round and might do. However, go to a machine tool catalog or better to a large jewelers supply and you will find them in various sizes and grits. Fine grit puts on a nice shine but are aggressive enough to accomplish what I think you are after. Yasmiin ------- Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2001 07:16:43 -0500 From: Ronald Thibault Subject: Re: Rebuild time > Can any one tell me about the paint they have used and what >I should look for so that it will stand up good I remember something >about paint that would stain easy and would like to stay away from >that. Rex thanks for your help, without it I would have to wait >another year. Randy Randy; That was my post. On my lathe I used Rustolium Light Machine Gray. Every oily finger print shows. On the mill I'm rebuilding now, I used Dark Machine Gray. This is a better choice. Ron Thibault North Augusta, SC USA Builder Miinie #2 Captain R/C Combat Ship USS Arizona http://pages.prodigy.net/thibaultr/ ------- Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 16:13:16 EDT From: WRSmith2x~xxaol.com Subject: Heat bluing shop tip All, Some of you may wish to heat blue tools or part that you have made. This afternoon, I needed to blue the frame screws for a clock I am presently building. Here is what I found. With the screw head polished and free of oil or other contaminants, I placed them, one at time, in a bluing holder that is a piece of brass about 0.020" thick and 5/8" x 3/4" with a hole in it to accept the screw and with a handle. I mention the size only to indicate that it is not a great heat sink. An alcohol lamp was used that has a wick of about 3/8" in diameter. Here is the interesting thing that I noted. Once the screw began to change color, I could remove it completely from the flame and it would continue to increase in color for as long as about 10-seconds. To me, this indicates that the screw temperature was high enough for the blue I wanted, and possibly even more, but it took time for the oxide to form. This also indicates the need to quench the screw at the right color because it could possibly pass through that color and have to be re-polished for another try at bluing. TTYL W. R. (Bill) Smith ------- From: "Jim Lewis" Date: Sun Jul 1, 2001 4:17 pm Subject: Polishing brass Hi Guys Is there anyway to get brass to STAY real shiny? I've got the normal cream stuff which claims to add a silicone protection layer but after some handling for a few days the shine is gone and it starts getting blotchy. I once sprayed a plastic coating on a brass piece which worked for a year or so but after that it got black spots. Is this an unsolvable problem or is there a good solution? Thanks. Jim http://www.emachineshop.com ------- From: Tony Jeffree Date: Sun Jul 1, 2001 5:56 pm Subject: Re: [taigtools] Polishing brass Problem is that the sweat you deposit in fingermarks etc. is acidic & attacks the surface of the metal. You can buy suitable lacquers from suppliers of clockmaking materials that will protect the surface - if the part is going to be handled often, you may need something heavier though. Clean up the brass so that it is free of all fingermarks etc. before lacquering. Regards, Tony ------- From: Alison & Jim Gregg Date: Sun Jul 1, 2001 9:40 pm Subject: Re: [taigtools] Polishing brass The classic finish used by the old instrument makers is to polish or buff ti a high polish,and then apply a hot laquer finish. Do not touch the visible surfaces after polishing, for all the reasons others have given. The special laquer is then applied to the heated part - the finish is dependant on the fact that it is heated. There are several colour variations available in the laquer ranging from a pale straw yellow to one that gives a dark golden almost red/brown colour. I will enquire tomorrow at the W.A. SMEE meeting for any additional information, - there are people who have done most things in that group! To forestall the inevitable question -where to get the laquer, - I don't know, but would suggest serious antique restorers suppliers, or as previously. suggested clock makers suppliers. Jim Gregg W. Australia ------- From: joel_mowersx~xxp... Date: Sun Jul 1, 2001 7:46 pm Subject: Re: Polishing brass The best luck I've had with watch and clock parts is polishing and buffing with jeweler's rouge. It doesn't stop the return of oxidation, but the metal is mirror smooth so it looks good (i.e. no surface roughness shows up when the patina forms). Joel ------- From: "David Robertson" Date: Sun Jul 1, 2001 8:00 pm Subject: Re: [taigtools] Re: Polishing brass Polishing with car wax (Carnuba) helps but won't allow much handling... some clock repairmen use this as an alternative to lacquering. Dave ------- From: J.C.Beechx~xxs... Date: Mon Jul 2, 2001 8:53 am Subject: Re: Polishing brass Hi jim, may I add, for handling brass, a pair of white cotton gloves, freshly washed are ideal for handling metal that is easily marked from fingers. The gloves need to be washed regularly, or the sweat will leach through. Other than this use a wooden jig for handling the components. Not sure if this IS related to your question, but probably more my interpretation of the thread. Joules ------- From: tadici283x~xxc... Date: Mon Jul 2, 2001 8:56 am Subject: Re: [taigtools] Polishing brass Jim, This is a good one, but you did not say if the brass needs to take wear? In the clock business and watches, parts that are not wear items are gold plated and they have looked good for years. High dollar clocks like the Atoms are gold plated and in some cases last some 40 or so years, I had a brass lamp my Grandmother gave me and I wanted to restore it so after careful polishing I coated it with clear lacquer and it has lasted some 15 years, but the clear coat did cut some of the shine. For auto uses some parts are electrostatic powder coated and it wears like iron, but this is not a choice for the home machinist due to cost of tools, your best bet is polish it very well and clean it very well and coat it very well under clean, dry average temp and it should last better than one year, but the adherence is what keeps it from oxidation. Lacquer is a better choice than plastic type coatings IMHO. Chris of Bradenton FLA ------- From: "John Shadle" Date: Mon Jul 2, 2001 9:09 pm Subject: Avoiding fingerprints on polished brass. I've never been able to work on a clock while wearing gloves. I last about 3 minutes, then off they come. What I do is first clean the parts in clock cleaning solution (ammonia + detergent), rinse without handling, dry without handling, then I spray them with Pledge and wipe it off. It's not 100% but it sure helps with fingerprints. A trick I learned from the Clocksmiths list. Washing hands frequently helps too. John ------- Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 20:53:50 -0000 From: "jimdlewis" Subject: Re: Deburring [MACHINED EDGE] Hi Doug Another option is to put some fine sand or emery paper grit up on a flat table and draw the edge over the paper. Use a slight rotating motion for rounding. Regards, Jim http://www.emachineshop.com - Frog CNC ------- Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 13:38:55 -0800 From: "Van Lupo" Subject: RE: Re: Deburring For what it's worth, I bought one of those small vibrator tumblers. It does a really nice job of evenly cleaning off the burrs. It also reduces much of the tool marks left by end mills and such. Van ------- Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 16:03:11 -0800 From: "David Goodfellow" Subject: Re: Re: Deburring I did the same, Van. I already had a rotating drum tumbler, but I find the vibrator is much faster. Dave Goodfellow Northridge, CA "No problem too small to baffle this expert" ------- Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 01:10:21 -0000 From: "jamesbknighton" Subject: Re: Deburring Dave, I'm assuming your vibrating tumbler is rather like those used by reloaders to clean brass "empties". Perhaps one of those could do double duty? What kind of media do you use for deburring? Thanks, Jim Knighton ------- Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 21:39:59 -0800 From: "David Goodfellow" Subject: Re: Re: Deburring Aaagh! You had to ask, didn't you? Now I can't find my receipt that identifies the stuff. I bought the vibrator from Caswell, and the media they recommended. They had it in ceramic triangles, rough, medium and fine. I bought the rough and medium, and treated corn for polishing brass. So far I've only used the vibrator on aluminum and brass. The ceramic triangles bring the aluminum to very smooth, but requiring polishing. The corn brings the brass to a high gloss. I tried the corn out on some old 30.06 brass I have, and it did wonders for it. The manual lists that as one of its prime uses. Dave Goodfellow ------- Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 22:25:44 -0000 From: "jamesbknighton" Subject: Re: Deburring Dave, Thanks for the info. I have a vibrating tumbler for reloading, and I use the walnut shell media with good results. The literature I've seen suggests that walnut shell and corn cob media is good for cleaning and polishing, but not deburring even aluminum and/or brass. I've toyed with the idea of using other media, but the stuff I've seen (ceramic triangles) was pretty coarse stuff, 1/2 - 3/4" in size. Some of the stuff offered by MSC and McMaster is apparently used with some sort of lubricating liquid as well, and I had visions of leaks and all manner of other problems with a machine designed for dry media. The sheer size of this media also scared me off and I've not done anything with it. Is the media you are using in this size range or do you have something more fine? Also, this stuff seemed to be terribly expensive and apparently came only in something like 50 lb containers. This is much more costly than I can afford just to experiment with. Was your media packaged in a more manageable quantity? JBK ------- Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 17:09:15 -0800 From: "Scott A. Stephens" Subject: Re: Re: Deburring I tried BB's steel for reloading in my rock tumbler and also for some of the parts I machined. Lubricant was one or two Tsp or delo 400 15w 40w I think. Pick it up at Price club. I've had good results ------- Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 17:59:09 -0800 From: "Van Lupo" Subject: RE: Re: Deburring I bought my vibratory tumbler from Airgas (Rutland Tool now and no online ordering) along with the starter kit, which included 3/8 x 3/16 angle cut ceramic triangles (P-20 stock) and a quart of soap and a quart of anti- rust solution. This kit was only 38.50 +tax and supplied enough media for one fill. Was cheaper to get then a 50lbs bag for $80+. The media has held up well for 8+ hours so far but has given a really good finish too. Van ------- Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 19:56:18 -0800 From: "David Goodfellow" Subject: Re: Re: Deburring This came in 5 lb containers. I'm sending a photo to you direct, as Ith ink this group does not allow attachments. The longest dimension of the average piece is about 1/5". The 5-lb bag cost in the neighborhood of $28.50. I suspect it's going to last me a long, long time. I use the ceramic media dry, and the corn with a Fitz product, also available from Caswell. Their URL is -- http://www.caswellplating.com/ Usual disclaimers -- just a satisfied customer. Dave Goodfellow Northridge, CA ------- Date: Fri, 08 Mar 2002 05:21:44 -0000 From: "rw13555" Subject: RE:Paint recommendations [FOR ALUMINUM] Just in case it may come in handy for anyone, I'll add a posting on what PPG Automotive Refinish has available for aluminum treatments: DX533 Aluminum Cleaner : phosphoric acid based cleaner, brightener, and prepaint conditioner for aluminum. Prepares aluminum prior to painting or welding or a sunsequent chemical coating DX503 Aluminum Conditioner : chromic acid based chemical that produces a chrome conversion coating on aluminum. Produces a gold / tan coating that becomes part of the aluminum surface. DX501 Aluminum Conditioner : clear version of DX503, used when it is desired to maintain the silver-white finish of aluminum. DAU75 : clearcoat finish suitable for aluminum parts Ron ------- Date: Sun, 10 Mar 2002 15:14:53 -0500 From: "Daniel J. Statman" Subject: Re: Great Source for Miniature Endmills [NEW SUBJECT IS ABOUT ANODIZING] Yes I do my own anodizing. I built a 0-200 VDC 3Amp power supply and I use that for the anodizing process. Titanium anodizing is a little different than aluminum anodizing. Titanium does not require a pigment to be added, the color develops from a surface grown oxide layer. The thickness of the layer determines the color, and the applied voltage will vary the film thickness. The dark blue color happens at a relatively low voltage of 25 V. The anodizing process takes less than 10 seconds. Obviously the entire piece comes out blue and then you just polish off the high spots. Titanium anodizing is not very durable and the recessed grooves help in preventing the color from being scratched. I also do some kiln-fired enameling processes, but you have to use an argon blanketed kiln since titanium will oxidize and burn. I have just started this technique and you can see a black enameled ring at the following link: http://members.rennlist.com/statmandesigns/Style-CK002-Black.html Daniel J. Statman, Statman Designs www.statmandesigns.com ------- Date: Wed, 19 Jun 2002 23:11:43 -0400 From: RichD Subject: Re: Question about finishing/coloring steel Bill Rutiser wrote: > > I used 12L14 for the base portion of the jack. One of the finishing > > techniques mentioned in the book for steel is to coat them in oil > > and heat at 350 for 10-15 minutes. Does anybody have any ideas > > on the type of oil that should be used? Is 10W30 like you use in your > > car going to work? or is there some other type of oil > > which would be more appropriate? Bill & all, It's an old blacksmith's method to blacken steel with old crankcase oil. The more used the better. My first batch wasn't doing the job, but the next lot works very well. This gives a very black oxide coating. The trick is to heat the steel evenly only to a dull red in dim light and then dunk in the oil till cool. I keep it in a gallon tin can (restaurant size). If you overdo it, the coating is easy to chip off. It's still not as good as professional hot chemical tool blackening, but can fill the bill in most cases. RichD ------- Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 08:53:15 -0400 From: "Marshall Pharoah" Subject: RE: Question about finishing/coloring steel Heat the item, then immerse in oil. You may want to try different temperatures. I have taken some small parts to red hot then quenched in used motor oil. This hardens them as well as giving them a black finish. Just heating them will often give them a permanent blue color. Much depends on the grade of steel. You may have to experiment (don't forget to write down successful processes). Gun shops will usually have chemical bluing, and sometimes blacking kits. Marshall ------- Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 07:45:42 -0500 From: Chabannes Rene N Contr ASC/YCD Subject: RE: Lathe Cleaning - black oxyde tank We used to black oxide a lot of parts on our machinery. We used "Black Diamond". Several gun smiths in the area bought it from us. Needless to say, what comes out is only as good as what goes in. We grit blasted small parts which gave a satin like finish. Ground parts still showed the grind pattern - we never polished anything. We blued a few guns for people. After metal prep, it was basically four steps: degrease, what I'll call a hot soap bath/preheat, "Blue", rinse. We always coated the parts with a preservative afterwards. The bluing/oxide solution was pretty thick, especially when cold and very caustic - be careful. It will boil over if too hot. Don't do this on the wife's stove. I can assure you, it's not worth the wife's wrath after a boil over. Don't ask how I know. Of course, the fumes aren't good for you. Read up on the subject for specifics, but it isn't hard. One potential problem: in the latter seventies with prices going up for everything, recy!cling and the availability of stainless became more prevalent. We started getting C1018, in particular, from a number of sources that had streaks and spots that wouldn't blue. Different alloys may require modifying the process to get a uniform color. In those days, we never found a cold blue as good as the hot version. That may have changed. Rene N. Chabannes (Titan) ASC/YC - Productions Operations C-17 SPO, WPAFB, OH 937-255-1042 (DSN 785-1042) ------- Date: Thu, 01 May 2003 00:16:32 -0000 From: "Ed Chesnut" Subject: How do I . . . "spot finishing(?)" on aluminum I am restoring an Observed Trials Motorcycle originally mfgd in the early '70's. There are some aluminum panels which should clean up fine if they were "spot finished(?)". I hope I am using the correct term. I am referring to the same sort of finish which is seen on the engine cowl of "The Spirit of St. Louis" (Lindberg's Atlantic crossing aircraft). How is that done? I am envisioning setting up on a large drill press with a 3/8" or 1/2" copper or aluminum rod chucked up (faced end). Charge the end of the rod with valve grinding compound or some other abrasive and touch down on the aluminum panel. Then use the x-y table to traverse 1/2 diameter and touch down again. Is this even remotely on the right track? Is something more compliant needed for the abrasive rod? Steel brush? Some sort of pad? There is also a steel flywheel weight which was added to the normal magneto flywheel. It needs clean up too. I'm trying to decide whether to install the riser block for the headstock on my Taig Lathe to clean it up by turning off a few thou - it is 4.4" in diameter - or to attempt spot finishing it. Any tips for spot finishing on steel? It does seem like I might be picking a tough battle to spot finish the curved OD surface. Thanks in advance for any guidance you might offer, Ed ------- Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 14:42:31 -1000 (HST) From: Tom Benedict Subject: Re: How do I . . . "spot finishing(?)" on aluminum Sounds like you're right on track. I've done that with a couple of different abrasives (including a hardwood dowel run at high speed with polishing compound on it... definitely low tech). Works like a charm. Tom ------- Date: Thu, 01 May 2003 01:29:06 -0000 From: "ulav8r2000" Subject: Re: How do I . . . "spot finishing(?)" on aluminum Another name for the process is "engine turning". Hard tool (wood, steel, aluminum) can be used with lapping compound or sandpaper disks. For round parts you need a compliant tool, such as wire brushes sold by Brownell's, used with lapping compound. ------- Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 15:51:55 -1000 (HST) From: Tom Benedict Subject: Re: Re: How do I . . . "spot finishing(?)" on aluminum I ran into something while reading up on rosette engines that made a distinction between engine turning and spotting. Spotting is done using an abrasive as has been described. Engine turning produces similar patterns, but uses a rosette engine and a single point cutting tool instead. The patterns you can get with a rosette engine are a lot more varied than those with spotting, but the equipment is a lot more involved. I've now seen two rosette engines come up on ebay. One was a traditional lathe with eccentric chuck and rosette cams. I forget what it went for. I think it was over ten thousand. The other was a linear rosette engine that looked like a cross between a shaper (turned vertically) and a traditional rosette engine that was unrolled (it had linear cams). That one went for even more. I've never seen mention of such a beast since. Tom ------- Date: Thu, 01 May 2003 06:27:31 -0000 From: "sikn1gh7" Subject: Re: How do I . . . "spot finishing(?)" on aluminum I've seen the terms jeweling and engine turning used for refering to the "spirit of st louis" finish, I believe the term "Jeweling" is prefered". Engine turning, depending on the background of the machinist you ask, can refer to cutting decorative patterns on a "rose engine", or "Decorative lathe", which uses a single point cutting tool to cut patterns like a spirograph. This is often found on antique (1800s) pocket watch covers. Of course, with the advent of CNC, BOTH can now be done easily on a CNC mill. My robotics team had *some* luck doing a quick and dirty jeweling of aluminum, using a felt bob (used on dremels for polishing), and some 800 grit lapping compound. The bob was just chucked up in an 1/8" collet, and the machine was programmed to lower the head about 0.020" below the surface of the piece, dwell for 5 seconds, up and repeat. Someone with a bit of time, a good eye for design, and some programming skills can probably write something to generate coordinate points that simulate a spirograph's movement. (Hrm, interesting problem, actually). I've heard that mustard jar lids and wine corks also works great for holding the lapping compound. Relevant Links: Jewelry techniques: http://users.lmi.net/~drewid/ Rose engine work: http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/jeharr/rosengin.htm http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/jeharr/ecc_patt.htm http://www.rgmwatches.com/engine99.html Jeweling work: http://www.angelfire.com/sports/customjewelshop/rifles.html http://www.cs.ucr.edu/~eamonn/et/et.htm Hope this helps! Terence ------- Date: Thu, 1 May 2003 13:50:09 -0700 From: "Nicholas Carter and Felice Luftschein" Subject: Re: Re: How do I . . . "spot finishing(?) THANK YOU for the wealth of I will add my experience, I have used a dowel with lapping compound (messy, and a pain), a cratex rod (needs lube but works well) and beartex discs on a mandrel (works best, but loads up with Al and still needs lube). The beartex works best as it is spongy and has some spring as well as self renewing. I have seen plans for a spring loaded mandrel so you always have pressure. See our web pages http://www.cartertools.com/nfhome.html ------- Date: Thu, 01 May 2003 20:44:29 -0000 From: "Ed Chesnut" Subject: Re: How do I . . . "spot finishing(?) THANK YOU for the wealth of . . . information. The rose turning machines weren't exactly on target - but it was quite enjoyable to review that information too. Gentlemen, you gave me direct answers to many of my unspoken questions and strong hints about others. I'm ready to go play, er, um, work on the project! I've already established that valve grinding compound is better for drilling through the aluminum [test piece :-)] than it is for polishing. Rubbing compound and wood dowel seem like good components/tools. I wonder about gluing a disc of rubber on the end of the dowel or rod? Ah, well, here I go. Thanks again for all the good responses (and links)! Ed ------- Date: Thu, 01 May 2003 23:31:20 +0100 From: Steve Blackmore Subject: Re: Spam Alert: Re: How do I . . . "spot finishing(?) THANK YOU for the wealth of On Thu, 01 May 2003 21:42:01 -0000, you wrote: >How timely this thread is! I am just about to get into doing the >same kind of finish to dress up the knurling tool that I am >making :) I am planning to use a 1/4 cylindrical abrasive india stone. > btw, I have also seen this technique called demascening... Wrongly :( Damascening the art of decorating iron, steel, or bronze with inlaid threads of gold or silver, or producing a watered effect in forging, as in sword blades, gun barrels, and various metal objects. The method, long practised in the Middle East as well as in China and Japan, was highly developed in Italy. The inlay forms a delicate and intricate pattern upon the contrasting background. The whole fabric is penetrated by the ornamental treatment, so that grinding does not remove it. I've seen guns with effects ranging from "wood grain" to barley twist patterns and there are some superb ornamental examples in the Royal Armories. It was originally done to incorporate very expensive pure iron and alloys, with cheap stuff, but still produce a viable weapon that wouldn't break. The ornamental examples followed as a lucrative sideline. Steve Blackmore ------- Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2003 04:52:59 -0700 (PDT) From: Scott Meyer Subject: Re: Polishing Aluminium for a Beginner Bruce Buchner wrote: > I have some aluminum cubes that I have made with my fly cutter that I would like to polish up. What is the easiest way to do this? They came out pretty smooth but there are some radial tool marks from the fly cutter. At the hardware store they have buffing wheels and several sticks of different polishing compounds. How are those used? Do you rub the stick on the metal and then buff it off like car wax? What type of material is best on aluminum? I've never tried putting a finish on anything I have made till now. Bruce Buchner < Flat pieces are always pretty easy to polish. Do you need to hold a dimensional tolerance? How about a flatness tolerance? Squareness? Aluminum is not really polishable, you will never get it to a mirror finish like you can with a decent tool steel. Having said that, if you have a cube, put a piece of 220 or so sandpaper on a surface plate (or a piece of glass, really anything that is flat, the flatter the better) and run yout part in a figure 8 around the sandpaper. As soon as the tool marks are gone, change the sandpaper to a finer grit, like 320 or so. Repeat the process until you have the finish you desire. Aluminum is very soft, so polishing goes fast, but if you don't clean up the dust from the previous sandpaper before you polish with the new one, you may be getting scratches from much coarser grit than you want. Scott ------- Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2003 07:43:26 -0500 From: "Ron Thompson" Subject: Re: Polishing Aluminium for a Beginner >Aluminum is not really polishable, you will never get it to a mirror >finish like you can with a decent tool steel. This is not true. Look on any highway at all the long haul semi trucks with shiny fuel tanks and "chrome" wheels, etc. Most of these items are aluminum. There are people in the parking lots of truck stops that make their living polishing wheels and tanks. Most truck stops sell polishing supplies. Some are hand polished, but more and more are done using a hand held high speed buffer. The most common machine buffers use muslin wheels and wax based compounds. The compounds are color coded and come with directions. Ron Thompson On the Beautiful Mississippi Gulf Coast USA http://www.plansandprojects.com ------- Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2003 08:03:28 -0500 From: "Nance, Tom" Subject: RE: Polishing Aluminium for a Beginner Hi Ron, The problem with aluminum is it oxidizes almost immediately. In fact, it oxidizes so fast that you rarely see the raw element. What you are actually seeing when looking at a bar of "aluminum" is actually aluminum oxide. Granted, there is raw aluminum under the surface, but you can't see it. It is this property that requires aluminum to be welded with special equipment that surrounds the weld in a halo of gas which keeps oxygen away from the surface. It is also this property that makes polishing a futile excercise. You may be able to acheive a nice finish for a few hours, but then it will revert to its normal dull surface. What I like to do with aluminum is sort of split the difference. I buff it with steel wool. That produces a very even, albeit dull, finish that I think is more pleasing than the standard mill finish. It also remove small scratches that unfortunately occur from handling. Tom Nance Corpus Christi, TX ------- Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2003 13:31:41 -0000 From: "Charles Hixon" Subject: Re: Polishing Aluminium for a Beginner If the aluminum is a grade with silicon in it, it will not polish to as high a luster as those grades without silicon. A few grades are formulated to come out shiny with just an acid dip. I sand by hand with progressive grades of sandpaper (change direction to remove scratches each grit) on a flat surface under running water down to 1000 grit (2000 grit introduces deeper scratches from the residue) and then 9 micron and 1 micron polishing compound. This leaves an undeformed surface. Some folks mention buffing, which will also work with some success depending on the grade of aluminum, but it deforms the surface with loss of dimensional control. Charles Hixon ------- Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2003 13:34:57 -0000 From: "lan_brooks" Subject: Re: Polishing Aluminium for a Beginner Having seen the other replys I can't resist responding. I used to have a business making Laser Pointers and one of the finishes I had available was created by having the parts polished on a Buffer wheels with polishing compound which resulted in a mirrorlike finish. This was then hard anodized and dyed black. The result looked like black glass. The anodized finish is actually clear and will preserve the surface finish that was present on the aluminum prior to anodizing. Without the dye, the parts look like polished chrome. So aluminum can be polished although I agree that without a protective finish they will grey out. The parts I made were from 6061 and the polished surface lasted the week or so it took to transport them to the anodizer. For home use, it might be possible to use a thinned lacquer to protect the finish in much the manner it is done to protect polished brass. The reply on using a glass plate and progressivelly finer sanding, which I would to wet, is on the mark and will preserve the flatness and corner detail. To actually polish, two cloth wheels are used. The polishing compound is applied to one, the part is then polished against that wheel and then the secondwheel is used to buff the part and remove the polish. With cuges, BE CAREFUL, the cloth heels will grab and throw the part unbelievably fast. Work on the lower part of the wheel and work from the middle of the cube to the edge. Kinda like this )_ not this )-. Have fun! Lan Brooks ------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2003 07:54:24 -0700 From: "Brown, Mark A (SPO)" Subject: RE: Polishing Aluminium for a Beginner I agree with Ron. I have routinely polished aluminum to the point that it shines like chrome. Generally I start with 400 grit after the machine work. You could start with a lower grit but usually the final tooling passes leave a finish that needs very little sanding and aluminums sands quite fast. With that said I feel very strongly that besides the lathe and mill you absolutely need two more tools. A powered saw of some kind to rough cut your material prior to machining. Trust me. The hacksaw gets old real fast. The second is a grinder motor. I rebuilt a car some time ago and got three buffing wheels and compound for each of them for polishing stainless steel from a company called Eastwood. I don't know of they are ideal for aluminum but after a quick spin on the grinder motor with each successive polishing wheel your aluminum parts look like chrome. I couldn't imagine polishing by hand. Mark ------------------------------------------ Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2003 11:09:21 -0400 From: Jim Ash Subject: Re: Polishing Aluminium for a Beginner Not on my surface plate. A nice flat surface, yes. A tool grade surface plate, no, but then I'm one of those fanatics that won't let grinding grit anywhere near close tolerance tooling. Some aluminum comes coated, especially sheet. But if you cut all six sides of your cube, that ship has sailed. To answer your question, those buffing compounds are usually meant to dress your buffing wheel, color coded for the finish grade you'd like. I'd be careful with your cubes around buffers and sanders; they can round off your edges. Depending on the size of the cube and the size of the wheel, I might not try it at all; I've had a few things ripped out of my hands on buffing and wire wheels, and the results are somewhere from not pretty to outright hazardous to life and limb. Stick with the flat surface idea. Jim Ash -------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2003 08:03:34 -0700 From: "Brown, Mark A (SPO)" Subject: RE: Polishing Aluminium for a Beginner Good point Tom. Here's something everyone can try. Anodizing. It is very simple, inexpensive, and can be done in your shop. Use caution, follow direction...blah, blah, blah...standard disclaimer. Anodizing not only produces a beautiful finish it hardens the surface of the aluminum considerable and stop the oxidation process. Check into it you will be surprised how simple the process is and the colors available. Here is the website of the guy I got all my information from. http://www.focuser.com/atm/anodize/anodize99.html Here is my home page. http://www.geocities.com/mbstingray/ There are a few items on it that have been anodized. So far I have done just black but the color options are virtually limitless. Note the black and gold flywheel. On my web page it says I hope to some day make that flywheel part of an engine/motor of my own design. Well it's almost done after 9 months. Hopefully I'll have pictures soon. It is all black (anodized aluminum) and gold (brass). Mark --------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2003 10:25:56 -0500 From: "Ron Thompson" Subject: Re: Polishing Aluminium for a Beginner >Anodizing not only produces a beautiful finish it hardens the surface >of the >aluminum considerable and stop the oxidation process. It is my understanding that anodizing is a good protectant, but it starts FTER the polishing. It will preserve whatever finish is already on the piece. Ron Thompson On the Beautiful Mississippi Gulf Coast USA http://www.plansandprojects.com --------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2003 11:33:36 -0400 From: Jim Ash Subject: Polishing Aluminium for a Beginner On the polishing debate, I used to teach a lab in semiconductor fabrication. My students each made their own IC from a silicon wafer blank. One of the last steps in the normal manufacturing processes of the dies is to coat the wafer with metal, mask it off and etch it. Our first lab was to take a cleaned microscope slide and metallize it, using a process called filament evaporation (I used sputtering and electron-beam systems, too, but the students from that class weren't allowed to near them). Gory physics aside, the end result was to vaporize a piece of pure aluminum wire and let the vapor condense on the slide, leaving a thin coating. If the slide was cleaned properly beforehand (part of the exercise), it produced a beautiful front-surface mirror(and rear, too). As luck would have it, that was the year of my tenth anniversary, which is the year you give your spouse tin/aluminum. I metallized one slide, and wrote a 'Happy Anniversary note' to my wife on another. I used the second as a mask for the first. I mounted both in a frame and gave it to her. She thought it was really cool.I'll bet nobody else's wife has anything like that. I believe some kind of metallization is used to put an aluminum coating on telescope mirrors, but I don't know the specifics of the process. In defense of the other side, aluminum does oxidize very rapidly, so don't expect any finish to last without some kind of coating. If you don't coat it, it will coat itself. Jim Ash ---------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2003 12:17:17 -0400 From: Jim Ash Subject: Re: Polishing Aluminium for a Beginner Anodizing is an oxidation-based process. The surface aluminum reacts with the oxygen it contacts. This can happen in any oxygen-rich environment, be it uncontrolled in open air, or in a liquid-based process like anodizing. As the surface aluminum gets sacrificed to oxide and the coating gets thicker, it becomes harder and harder for the oxygen to get through the coating to the non-oxidized aluminum underneath. This is a temperature-dependent process; the hotter it is, the more energy the oxygen molecules have, and the deeper they can penetrate the metal. Eventually, the process slows to the point of effectively stopping. Technically, in a temperature-controlled environment, it never truly stops, but you won't live long enough to be able to measure a difference. On the side, oxidizing silicon causes the final oxide to be thicker than the original metal. This is also true for aluminum (and all kinds of other metals), but I don't know the numbers for them. With the silicon in the lab, we were talking final oxide thicknesses in units of Angstroms (1/10000000000 of a meter), usually around 5000, but I don't know if an anodized coating is thick enough to change the dimensions of a critical part or not. ... more than you ever wanted to know. This is hobby machining. Play with it and find out what works for you. Jim Ash --------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2003 12:38:21 -0400 From: "Statman Designs, LLC" Subject: Re: Polishing Aluminium for a Beginner For aluminum the anodizing process requires a dye to be introduced to get any color on the surface. The reactive metals of titanium, tantalum, and niobium form their anodized colors without a dye present. In these metals the oxide coating that is grown is also clear, but there is a portion of incident light that reflects from the surface of the oxide and their is a portion that penetrates to the bottom of the oxide and is then reflected from the metal surface. These two types of light then interact and develop very striking colors, much like oil droplets on a puddle of water can produce a rainbow. For aluminum anodizing you change the dye used to get different colors. For reactive metal anodizing, you change the applied voltage to grow thicker or thinner oxide surfaces to change the colors. More than you ever wanted to know. Daniel J. Statman, Statman Designs www.statmandesigns.com dan.statmanx~xxrennlist.com ps The colors on titanium also cycle as the voltage is increased. However the second time through the spectrum the colors have a more pastel hue to them. In order to get to the third cycle the voltage must exceed 120 VDC and the surface of the titanium needs to be etched with hydrofluoric acid or the colors get very mottled and muddy looking. Also at those higher voltages any chlorine present in your anodizing bath, even trace amounts, will cause all kinds of surface problems. ------------------------------------ Date: Fri, 08 Aug 2003 03:31:11 -0000 From: "John" Subject: Re: deburring small holes [ABOUT 0.030"] --- In atlas_craftsmanx~xxyahoogroups.com, Wayde C. Gutman wrote: > Regarding abrasive threads, not urban legend, try MicroMark (I think). Wayde, you're a godsend! I found www.micromark.com & they have it! I then did a google search on "abrasive cord", and found even smaller cord all the way down to .012" dia. at www.abrasivesales.com. Thanks again, John ----------------------------------- Date: Fri, 8 Aug 2003 08:55:39 -0700 From: Frank Evan Perdicaro Subject: Abrasive cord One standard abrasive cord is dental floss saturated in toothpaste. Good for polishing carburator jets. But this idea has a long history. Wax saturated cotton/linen/reed cord rolled in abrasive must be thousands of years old. Sisal, glue and sand must be old, too. More recently there are nylon cords with glass powder attached. At Home Depot you can buy RemGrit flexible cutting rods for hack saws. Diamond impregnated bandsaw blades are used for cutting glass, so there must be diamond wire for similar uses. ----------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 9 Aug 2003 02:03:31 EDT From: catboat15x~xxaol.com Subject: Re: Digest Number 1584 Abrasive string is available from MicroMark and should be great for smoothing out holes in metal. Also it would seem that you could saturate cotton string with some oil and abrasive and do the job, but either way may destroy the accuracy of the hole. ---------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 9 Aug 2003 15:39:10 EDT From: LouD31M066x~xxaol.com Subject: Re: Deburring small holes Machinery's Handbook give explicit directions on how to work up diamond dust laps(at least my 1946 edition does.) This may be overkill for your purposes or maybe not. Louis -------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2003 09:05:50 -0800 From: "Dave Hylands" Subject: RE: Parts Tumbler > Anyone know of a place I can get a relatively inexpensive > parts tumbler that can handle parts up to 6" across? I would > also be interested in building a tumbler if anyone knows > where I can get a set of plans. Here's one that could be scaled down: http://www.acc.umu.se/~widmark/lwtrumld.html Dave Hylands Vancouver, BC, Canada http://www.DaveHylands.com/ -------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2003 18:32:54 -0000 From: "eferg2001" Subject: Re: Titanium anodising? > Anyone know anything about anodising techniques for Titanium I anodize titanium all the time. The colors depend on the DC voltage applied to the Ti piece in a conductive bath (I have the color range pictured on my web site). The total process takes about 10 seconds. There are many plans to be found on the Internet for building an anodizer - be aware that most of them are unsafe (lethal voltages and currents are involved). I have a degree in electronics and built my anodizer with safety in mind. I suggest you begin your research here: http://www.reactivemetals.com/ Ed Ferguson www.cascadiadesignstudio.com ---------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2003 06:02:16 +1000 From: "Des Bromilow" Subject: RE: Digest Number 1275 www.mrtitanium.com has some useful info but appears contradicted by the info from Dan... Ask me after this weekend. Also, here is part of an email from Dan Statman There are a few problems that you will have. The anodizing is VERY fragile and scratches off immediately unless in a recessed portion of the ring. To get the bronze color you need to anodize at 15VDC, not sure where you got your 40-120V information. 20V gives dark purple, 25V dark blue. To remove the anodizing you simply use emery cloth of whatever grit you want, 320 works well. You will not be able to get a clean division between the anodized portion and the brushed portion because the act of brushing the surface will strip the anodized coating off the entire ring. And if you brush it first then you will need to remove the anodized coating from the brushed portion, yet retain the brushed look. The anodizing bath is best if it is trisodium phosphate, but really anything will work. Avoid chloride ions, but at 15V it won't really matter at all. Use Stainless for the negative electrode and titanium for the positive. You will not get a very vibrant color with grade-2 titanium unless you chemically etch the surface first, but this is probably too involved for a one-time ring. Grade-5 titanium anodizes MUCH better than grade-2, and you don't need to etch unless you are doing some other colors in the 50V to 100V range. --------------------------- Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2003 05:50:09 -0000 From: "eferg2001" Subject: Re: Titanium anodising? > My plan is to use the technique as a decorative finish for clock > parts - assuming that I can fix the problem of machining the metal > appropriately! Tony Jeffree A clock with anodized titanium components would be stunning. Also, unfinished titanium can be polished to a very high luster (think platinum). If you combined recessed milled areas (such as numerals in the dial) with the anodized technique you will have a very unique project. Also, you can experiment with a technique where you anodize in layers. For example, if you anodize with a higher voltage color, then scribe away a portion, you can anodize again with any lower voltage color. The lower voltage color will not disturb the higher voltage oxide layer. You can also mask off areas you don't wish to color with nail polish or tape. And if you make a mistake, just polish the thin oxide layer away and re-anodize. Please share a photo when you get around to this project. And please, be safe when anodizing - it's the current level, not the voltage that presents a shock danger. I've seen some very unsafe plans for constructing titanium anodizers on the web. Regards, Ed Ferguson www.cascadiadesignstudio.com -------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2004 16:36:34 -0800 From: Alan Marconett KM6VV Subject: acid pickle I'm in a pickle! Or rather, my fabricated brass crank is in a pickle (acid bath) to remove the flux or scum or whatever, and when I remove the part, it's nicely copper plated. BUT I don't want it copper plated! I have to use fine emery paper to remove it. Not a problem on flat external surfaces, but in the tight corners, it's hard to remove. Am I doing things wrong? Or is there a simpler way to remove the copper? Alan KM6VV --------------------- Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2004 07:02:10 -0800 From: "Orrin Iseminger" Subject: Re: acid pickle You haven't copper plated it, you've removed the zinc with the acid. In effect, what you have is a porous copper surface, now. Orrin ------------------- Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2004 10:55:39 -0800 From: Dave Martindale Subject: Re: acid pickle >the part, it's nicely copper plated. BUT I don't want it copper plated! Brass is made of copper and zinc. The acid that you are using isn't plating the part with copper, it is stripping the surface layer of zinc leaving (porous) copper. What acid are you using? Could you use something milder that won't attack the brass to remove the flux? Perhaps hot water, or alcohol, or some other solvent combined with mechanical brushing? Dave ------------------- Date: Sat, 25 Apr 1970 15:37:41 -0800 From: "Wm. Dubin" Subject: Re: acid pickle Alan, It sounds like you have used a part or a tool in the pickle which has caused this reaction. A pickle must be kept pure. For brass parts, I use ONLY a copper tongs for immersion and removal. As I don't pickle steel parts, I'm not certain what should be used, The pickle should also be well covered, as any metal dust in the workshop can contaminate it. Re-mix it, and start from scratch. On the parts you have now, use a strong soap (like LAVA), hot water, and a "fine" brass wire scratching brush, it may help. I use this in any case after I pickle any brass part. There are very good pickles you can get from Rio Grande, and if at all possible, use LOW heat (I use an old hot plate). Good luck, Wm. ------------------ Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2004 11:42:31 -0800 From: Alan Marconett KM6VV Subject: Re: acid pickle Hi Wm., Yeah, I had steel parts silver brazed into the brass rod ends. I've mixed up a new batch, and put in hydrogen peroxide per the article mentioned. Seems to be improving. I've also used a brass wire brush on the parts. Almost got it! Didn't have LAVA, tried a hand cleaner, but it wasn't the abrasive type. Alan KM6VV ------------------- Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2004 15:00:10 -0800 From: "Orrin Iseminger" Subject: Re: acid pickle You'll get this result on brass, whether iron is involved, or not. Perhaps some other cleaning agent will work I don't see any way to use an acid pickle on brass without dissolving the zinc. Maybe someone else can step in here with more definitive information. Orrin ------------------ Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2004 20:15:37 -0500 From: Jeff Demand Subject: Re: acid pickle Alan, With a sparex (or even a sulphuric acid) pickle ANY iron or steel in electrical contact with the part will cause the copper plating. Another sneakey culprit is nickle plating on the piece. If you are soldering steel use just hot water to remove the flux, otherwise just keep the iron/steel out of the pickle. To remove the copper flash you could try ferric chloride printed circut board etch, just watch out for other stuff getting eaten too. Some times its possible to heat up the part to soldering temperatures to oxidize the copper then pickle away the oxides. A nitric acid bright dip would also work if you are set up & qualified to handle such nasties. Jeff Demand Designs Analog/Digital Modeling & Goldsmithing http://www.aztec-net.com/~jdemand --------------- Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2004 17:36:55 -0800 From: Alan Marconett KM6VV Subject: Re: Re: acid pickle Hi Dave, I was using a recommended mixture of sulfuric acid and water, normally used for copper boilers. I had unknowingly pickled a connecting rod with a steel shaft before this. This apparently messes up the solution. I made up a new batch, per Instructions I just received, this time with hydrogen peroxide. The majority of the copper is gone, and I was able to finish up the parts nicely with emery cloth. I put the hot part directly into the pickle, to remove the oxidation and fluxes (read it somewhere). Secret seems to be not to put steel in the pickle! Next crankshaft, I'll try JUST hot water and H2O2, and avoid the acid. Alan KM6VV ------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 18:44:26 -0000 From: "Ray Feldman" Subject: Re: metal blackening > Anyone know of an easy way to blacken, (not gun blue), metal? I'm > mainly interested in steel & potmetal. Thanks John I just came across this query and want to add my 2 cents to the discussion. Brownells make a product called GUN-KOTE. It comes in a spray can and requires that the item to be coated, is pre-heated in an oven to 100deg F. After the item is coated it is then baked in the oven at 300 deg F. It comes in Gloss and matte black, plus other colors. Here is a direct quote from Brownells Literature: "Brownells GUN-KOTE is a durable, second-generation epoxy, thermoset resin finish that will not break down, peel or dissolve. In fact, once it is applied, the only way to remove Brownells GUN-KOTE is to abrasive blast the part. It is resistant to all known gun solvents and thinners. Each coat is approximately .0004" thick so Brownells GUN-KOTE can be used on both internal and external parts where a close-tolerance fit is required without having to worry about interference." Ray --------------- Subject: Re: polishing lucite? From: "Arthur Bailey" Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2004 09:47:41 -0500 [OldTools Group] > > So I have these "Shark-O-Lite handles that have rattled around in > > toolboxes too many years an need a good polishing up> I use Novus polishing products for plastic and bakelite radio cabinets. Works very well, and you can probably find it at your local plexiglass supply house. It comes in 3 grits, the heaviest two in a light paste form and the last is liquid. Art Bailey Queens, NY --------------- Date: Sun, 18 Apr 2004 00:59:25 EDT From: transdoctor3x~xxaol.com Subject: Re: brushed finish Use scotch bright on end of wooden dowel w/lapping compound, gives very good pattern, lots of definition transdoctor3 ------- Date: Mon, 10 May 2004 08:42:24 -1000 (HST) From: benedictx~xxhawaii.rr.com Subject: Re: Anodizing question.... [taigtools group] On Tue, 11 May 2004, Chet R Biggerstaff wrote: > Another question not totally related to the Taig. Is there an easy > way to anodize at home? Are there any good sources for learning on > the web and such? Is there anyone here with experience? Thanks You betcha! If you search on "anodizing" and "atm", you should reach a site where the guy goes into a great deal of detail about how he anodizes focusing units for telescopes. This guy (whose name I can't remember) sells a booklet off his web site. I got it, and it's well worth the cash. He uses supplies from Caswell Plating. I haven't picked up a Caswell anodizing kit, but they look pretty complete. You supply sulfuric acid and a power supply (12V battery charger worked for the few times I've done this on my own), and the Caswell kit supplies the rest. When I was doing anodizing I was using Rit fabric dyes. They work, but exposure to UV light fades them. I was never able to get a true black, but apparently this is the beast of all colors to do using Rit dyes. All in all it's very very doable in the home shop. Electropolishing is another one that's very very doable in the home shop. An electropolishing setup runs about $150 US. The big advantage to electropolishing over mechanical polishing for me is that mechanically polished parts that are used in a vacuum tend to outgas like crazy. Electropolished parts don't. A business thought for the small shop: We make a bunch of parts at work that are to be used in vacuum or in harsh environments. I'd love to have an anodizing and electropolishing setup at work, but for reasons of EPA regs it's not worth the trouble. I'd love to set one up at home, but for reasons of conflict of interest I wouldn't be able to charge for the service if I did this to parts made at work. If you have labs in your area that do vacuum stuff, or medical facilities that need tools polished, having an electropolishing setup at home can be an easy way to bring in a little shop cash. Likewise, if you've got labs with in-house shops that work in aluminum, or if you have an active paintball community in your area, having an anodizing setup in your home shop would be another way to bring in a little shop cash. At some point I'd like to set up both of these in my shop, just for my own work. Tom ------- Date: Tue, 11 May 2004 09:45:01 -0700 From: "John Swope" Subject: Re: Anodizing question.... I found the following to be very helpful on anodizing. He also touches on tumbling and offers a complete guide for $20. http://www.focuser.com/atm/anodize/anodize99.html John [NOTE TO FILE: Tom Benedict then replied: > That's the dude. That's the one I bought the booklet from. < ] ------- Date: Tue, 11 May 2004 19:26:57 -0000 From: "JohnW" Subject: Re: Anodizing question.... The Yahoo group I mentioned is http://groups.yahoo.com/group/anodizing101/ The fellow who has the focuser web page is an active member of that group. Process can be done with "ordinary" kitchen/shop supplies. battery acid, lye, baking soda, dyes and boiling water. Commercial dye and degreasing products probably give better results. The only thing that is keeping me from trying it is the tub of battery acid you need. There's nothing better than acid fumes when it comes to corroding metal. John ------- Date: Fri, 14 May 2004 05:24:02 -0000 From: "asrpas" Subject: Re: Anodizing question.... Please check this link, lot of information thru forums and other stuff not only anodizing but dedicated to all sort of finishing techniques. Hope that helps http://www.finishing.com/Letters/index.html#2a Cheers, Rick ------- Date: Tue, 8 Jun 2004 16:06:12 -0700 (PDT) From: ken cox Subject: RE: How easy is it to chrome at home? [SHERLINE GROUP] Most of the quality of a chrome job is in the prep. If you only want the part really shiny, you could sand your way up to 1200grit, or better, 2000 grit, and then use Semichrome paste. Make sure all the lines (from the paper) are going the same direction on the part. I've used it extensively, and with some effort, it is very much like chrome. I fooled some guys at work once doing this, they wouldn't believe the part wasn't plated. For aluminum, I've not encountered anything near it in quality. You'll have to judge for yourself though. Other than this, I would agree with the others' responses that for 5 parts or so, you are much better off "jobbing" the chrome plating on them out rather than trying to do this at home. Aside from the legal issues pertaining to zoning for industrial processes (most of the chemicals for a good job are very caustic and doing industrial processes involving some of this stuff at home, is likely not legal for where you are zoned) You would also have to have the buffing wheels, compounds, etc. When chrome comes out of the plating solution, it isn't shiny, from what I remember. You must buff it. You do have the option of a caswell kit, but I don't think it'll be as chip resistant as you get from a shop using the very nasty chemicals. I've used their gold plating kit, and while it did turn out pretty, I don't really think it is the quality of a professional jewelers gold plating. It is much thinner too. Perhaps more importantly: You are much more likely to have a part stay good looking after a piece of gravel hits it at 65mph if you get it done by a dedicated shop. That isn't to say it can't be done at home, but you have to weigh money vs quality and plating longevity. You can build an extraordinary amount of cool stuff with home (sherline/taig) equipment, but just be aware that some processes (plating, enamelling, etc.) have their downsides not just with health issues, but some legal ones as well. If you are looking to have fun and learn from your projects, there are of course other considerations. Plating might be something you want to do a lot more of. Only you can tell. If you aren't in a hurry, ask someone at a plating place near you if you can get a price break by leaving the parts with them for a few days, and have them plate them next time there is a large group of parts being done. I'd try that. Best of luck, have fun, Ken ------- Date: Wed, 9 Jun 2004 08:20:55 EDT From: Holyelvisx~xxaol.com Subject: Re: How easy is it to chrome at home? I think I will contact a local plating shop and try to develop a relationship there. I have no interest in chemical processes. (c: Thanks for the info guys. Devin ------- Date: Sun, 12 Dec 2004 17:15:14 -0800 (PST) From: John Maki Subject: Interesting Finish on Small Brass Parts I have been experimenting with methods for finishing small scale brass parts in order to replicate a cast surface. This one seems to work nicely! I begin by polishing the part with a 600 grid pad to remove scratches. Then I lightly sandblast the part using a Badger Air Brush designed for sandblasting (and sold by MicoMark), using their silicon carbide grit. After cleaning off the grit, I lightly polish the part using Flitz polish and finish with a coat of wax. The resulting surface is a good approximation to a finely cast part. I have some photos of my miniature tools which demonstrate this finish at http://www.flickr.com/photos/13976390x~xxN00/sets/53870/ I have also posted photos of some of my miniature tools which show more detail of the machining work at http://www.flickr.com/photos/13976390x~xxN00/sets/52075/ In all cases, you can get additional details on the tool by clicking on the photos. John Maki ------- Date: Fri, 04 Mar 2005 17:28:22 -0000 From: "n2562001" Subject: Re: Hi everyone: I have a question about polishing parts while chucked on the lathe> [sherline group] > I haven't had very much success in polishing items on my lathe, I am > wondering if anyone else has a method that works. I would like to be > able to high polish some areas and contrast with crisp edges and > brushed finishes. I have tried using 320 and finer sandpaper and then > charging wooden dowels with tripoli and other forms of polishing > compound but I end up losing my edges(they become rounded). The > material I am frequently milling is gold, stainless steel and > platinum. Any help would be appreciated, thanks in advance for your > replies. Cary James Cary This one took awhile to find the right combinations for a good quality finish. What has worked best for me is as follows. I first turn the tool post so that the cutting tool is parallel with the lathe bed. I then cut a strip of 3M Silicon Carbide wet dry paper to be used under a fine cut Pillar file. Next the Pillar file is layed over the top of the cutting tool so it will remain parallel with the surface to be polished. This also makes the sharp edge you are looking for possible as well as much easier to achieve. The paper is placed under the file for polishing the surface. For most sufaces I use 600 grit but will go up to 4000 grit if needed. I am not sure what it is with 3M silicon Carbide wet dry paper but it gives a far superior finish than other brands I have tried. Jerry Kieffer ------- Date: Sat, 05 Mar 2005 00:30:59 -0000 From: "n2562001" Subject: Re: Hi everyone: I have a question about polishing parts while chucked on the lathe> Alan Marconett wrote: > Hi Jerry, > Polishing parts is one (of many) area I could improve in. But I'm not > sure what you are talking about doing. A tool bit, a file, AND abrasive > paper? I get it that the tool bit is parallel to the bed. After that, > I'm not sure whether you're using the crossslide and carriage to move the > paper or what. Is the file for backing up the paper? And what kind of > file is it? Alan. A pillar file is a rectangle file with parallel sides that generally comes in a very fine cut. If you look them up in a tool catalog I am sure they will have pictures. I use the file as a flat surface to apply pressure to the paper so I can get a even finish on the part I am polishing. In other words you have the surface to be polished, then the paper and the file over the top of it. When you apply downward pressure on the file, it will apply pressure on the paper and polish the part. I like the pillar files because they come in many different sizes that work well for this operation. The fine cut is enough to hold the paper in place but not too coarse to come through and score the part. The only purpose of the lathe tool is a square surface to lay the rear part of the file on so it will stay parallel to the surface you are polishing. My explanations generally have a lot to be desired. Feel free to contact me off list and I will send you a drawing if this is not clear. Jerry Kieffer ------- Date: Fri, 04 Mar 2005 17:08:59 -0800 From: Alan Marconett Subject: Re: Re: Hi everyone: I have a question about polishing parts while chucked on the lathe> HI Jerry, so you're "bridging" the file with it's paper wrap across the part and the toolbit "support" at right angles? OK, I think I get it. Much like having the T-Rest Sherline offers for hand held tools? http://www.sherline.com/2110inst.htm I get it now. I'm sure it wasn't your description, just my slow uptake! Thanks again for the description, I'll give it a try. Alan KM6VV ------- Date: Sat, 05 Mar 2005 03:29:11 -0000 From: "hotchicken12000" Subject: Re: Hi everyone: I have a question about polishing parts while chucked on the lathe> Hi Jerry and Alan, Thanks for your responses! Jerry do you use any kind of polishing compound like Tripoli or Rouge or do you just finish your polish with super fine sandpaper? I have used a similar technique- a lot of goldsmiths use sandpaper wrapped around a rectangular piece of wood in order to gain leverage on their parts to be sanded. Usually I use 320 grit sandpaper mounted on a piece of wood and then I finish with felt or cotton wheels mounted on a polishing machine. Then I proceed to a wheel charged with Tripoli first and then finally to a soft cotton buffing wheel dedicated to the finer grit Rouge. Thanks again, I look forward to your responses. Cary James ------- Date: Sat, 05 Mar 2005 05:20:39 -0000 From: "n2562001" Subject: Re: Hi everyone: I have a question about polishing parts while chucked on the lathe> Cary, I seldom use anything other than paper to polish except for gold. For gold I generally only use appropriate compounds for polishing a previously polished surface. Jerry Kieffer ------- Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 15:57:14 -0000 From: "Lynn Livingston" Subject: Re: Epoxy Color Fill [taigtools] "juniorcdn" wrote: > Does anyone know of a product to color-fill machined aluminum key > chains? I think it is a colored epoxy. What other methods are you > guys using to fill the machined lines in your art and give it a little > bit of color. Thanks in advance, Michael. These guys supply engraving fills; look under laser supplies. Though I haven't tried them personally yet, I have had several pen engravings filled with it and it works great. http://www.laserbits.com/ Lynn ------- Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 08:50:38 -1000 (HST) From: benedict-listx~xxhawaii.rr.com Subject: Re: Epoxy Color Fill I've used model paint when I don't want to completely fill the engraved line. That works well. As a cheesy I've used a Sharpie or crayon, but they're not durable. Pigmented epoxy works well, as has been mentioned. I know Rio Grande sells pigments and very clear epoxies for doing jewelry work. Other jewelry suppliers should have similar products. Tom ------- Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 20:30:37 -0000 From: "Tom Murray" Subject: Re: Epoxy Color Fill I think you might achieve this with Ceramit. It is a two part epoxy that cures to a fairly durable material. It comes in a lot of different premixed colors and is reasonably priced. Maximum hardness is achieved when it is cured at 200-250 degrees fahrenheit for a short period of time, but it will also cure at room temperature after a day or so. Here are a couple of suppliers: http://shorinternational.com/Ceramit.htm http://www.lacytools.ca/catalog/default.php/cPath/336 The Shor International site has detailed instructions for using Ceramit. Tom Murray ------- Date: Mon, 01 Aug 2005 13:58:59 -0000 From: "Jerry Robinson" Subject: Re: Epoxy Color Fill For Sail and Power Boats, Epoxy is used a lot. So there are a lot of very good reference manuals out there. A favorite of mine is West Systems (www.westsystem.com ). There is a lot of information on site. They also publish manuals and videos. Another place is Mr. Fiberglass (www.mrfiberglass.com). They have just the basic materials - including tints and fillers for Epoxy. Usual comment: not affiliated - just a cutomer. jerry ------- Date: Tue, 02 Aug 2005 00:57:31 -0000 From: "campgems" Subject: Re: Epoxy Color Fill There is an epoxy type material that hardens with a "Ceramic like surface, which resembles kiln fired enamels in both appearance and physical properties". The quote is from a Jewelry supply catalog, and the product is Ceramit. It is a two part, color and catalyst, and is cooked at 200F for 1 hour. I used to sell it when I had my store, but never had the need to use it. It has been around for years, and has a good rep. My Catalog is about 5 years old, and in it, a 2oz color is $4.30 and an 8oz of catalyst is $8.45. They claim that it can be "stoned and polished" after hardening and can be applied to metals, wood plastics, ceramics, etc. I would guess that an hour at 200F for plastic may be asking a lot though. They also state that it can be brushed, sprayed, or applied with a spatula or squeeze bottle. My guess is that for most applications where you want some color on a piece, this would give a better finished product than epoxy, especially around oil and water. Oh yes, it ships as a hazardious material with special shipping charges. If you could find it in stock at a local lapidary or jewelers store, it may save you some bucks. The sur-charge was $10 to $20 per package. No connection, just passing along some info. Don ------- NOTE TO FILE: The following thread starts initially as machining tips to reduce tooling marks on the product. It quickly gets into finishing techniques that can be used after any mechanical metal work. ------- Date: Fri, 05 Aug 2005 23:54:59 -0000 From: "juniorcdn" Subject: Tooling Marks [taigtools] I still can't get rid of the tooling marks on my projects. I have tried everything now with no luck. I have buffed and tumbled my projects and the lines are still there. Tumbling also makes all my work dull looking. Here is an example of a project. http://members.shaw.ca/huntmw/Decals/Cross.JPG These marks are in all of the pockets I mill out or engrave. I thought that it was endmill flex because I use 1/16 inch and 1mm endmill mostly. I then tried a design with a 1/8th endmill with similar findings. Do any of you have this problem with the stuff you make on your cnc? If I make a contour design it looks good, but the 2 1/2 dimension stuff looks way better. ------- Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2005 17:13:39 -0700 From: "Felice Luftschein and Nicholas Carter" Subject: Re: Tooling Marks Unless you want to polish those out with a flex shaft and abrasives there's really nothing you can do. You might try taking a finishing pass on the bottom with a ball endmill and a stepover of .005" or so and see if that cleans them up, but chances are you will always have them in some way or another. The ball endmill will cut more in the center than the periphery and might mitigate the marks. If you filled it with black paint or epoxy it would look pretty radical. Anyway, great work nonetheless. Check out our homepage www.cartertools.com/nfhome.html ------- Date: Sat, 6 Aug 2005 12:17:35 +1200 From: "Alan" Subject: RE: Tooling Marks Are u using ballnose or flatbottom cutter? With flatbottom cutter only move over 2/3 cutter dia. ------- Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2005 17:25:08 -0700 (PDT) From: juan gelt Subject: Re: Tooling Marks I get those too, even if I flood with oil. They are really much less than .001 and make rainbows when viewed sidelong, so the scratches must be very fine to act as a diffraction grating. I'm new enuff that I don't know how acceptable this is as a standard of performance. But I took a tip from microsoft and wrote an applet to make spirally pockets so at least it looks like a deliberate feature! I used to do jewellery, and one uses 'jeweller's rouge' which is iron oxide superfine abrasive in a wax stick, on a buffer wheel. This is for a final mirror finish and it's called 'coloring' the metal for some reason. Perhaps you could get a tiny dremel mandrel and felt buffing cone and run your final depth pass one time separately with the rouge. It WILL remove material and it IS possible to overbuff, but if you really want a mirror in the pockets it would be one way to achieve it. Usually the 'coloring' is done after a rough polish using a coarser material in a wax stick called 'tripoli'. Oh - and I usually make a finish pass taking off .002 just fyi so you can gauge performance... lemme see...there is a picture at http://cnc-g-spot.com/testmold/pockets.gif I'd sure like to know if we're missing something and if a better result is possible, too! ------- Date: Sat, 06 Aug 2005 01:26:24 -0000 From: "juniorcdn" Subject: Re: Tooling Marks I am using flat carbide endmills. I use smart tap tapping fluid as a lubricant. My endmills cost between $10-15 each. That is not too cheap I hope. I am afraid to use a heat-treated endmill my friend gave me worth $70. I have broken 3 bits in the last two months, anymore would start to get expensive in my opinion. I tried color filling with a resin and don't like it at all. It is the worst stuff I have ever worked with. It did not stick to the aluminum either. Paint/powdercoat may be my last option. I just love the look of poslished aluminum though. How do the big companies finish thier products to a mirror shine finish? ------- Date: Sat, 06 Aug 2005 02:53:19 -0000 From: "Paul Huffman" Subject: Re: Tooling Marks Any time you use a tool that has to have step over to machine a pocket, you will have these marks, as far as I know. I run full size cnc machines and have them the only way I know is to use what they call wiper inserts on a face mill, which is used to face off sides of blocks and such, where the tool only makes one pass over the complete surface. Paul in OKC ------- Date: Sat, 6 Aug 2005 15:49:01 +1200 From: "Alan" Subject: RE: Tooling Marks The other thing is u must have your cutter head clocked up with a dial indicator over the width of the table. ------- Date: Sat, 06 Aug 2005 05:30:10 -0000 From: "Robin S." Subject: Re: Tooling Marks First, as others have said you're never going to completely remove these marks without doing some kind of operation after machining. The Taig (and any similarly sized machine) is not rigid enough to be able to run a cutter without making those tool marks. It is possible with much larger and more expensive machines, however. I would strongly suggest you not use carbide. Typically, carbide cutters are not as sharp as HSS cutters, nor are they even capable of being sharpened to the same degree (due to the size of the grain structure of tungsten carbide). Using carbide creates more machine deflection and vibration than using HSS which results in deeper tool marks. You best option is to make a very fine finishing pass at a high surface speed (probably something like 300 to 500 feet per minute) and a reasonably fine feedrate (probably less than .001"/flute, although you can experiment with this). The axial depth of cut should be something like .002", and a good radial depth of cut will be something like 1/3 the cutter's diameter. All of these values should be tweaked to find a finish that you're willing to wait for. BTW, I'm assuming you're using aluminum. If steel, the surface speed will need to be decreased to about 100-120 for mild steel (slower for higher carbon/alloy steels) and you may want to start with a smaller radial depth of cut. Make sure to get rid of chips as you're machining. Recutting chips left in the pocket will create major tool marks and wear your cutter prematurely. Lastly, you may want to try and stay .001" or so off the side walls for your finishing pass. You'll have to experiment to see, but touching the side walls during a finishing pass could very well cause fairly major tool deflection (more marks). HTH. Regards, Robin ------- Date: Sat, 06 Aug 2005 15:31:31 -0000 From: "Lynn Livingston" Subject: Re: Tooling Marks Another method you could employ to get rid of the marks is to use a backing plate to provide the background for the letters. Just mill like you normally would, except cut the letters all the way through. Then cut an identical shape without the letters, and glue, solder, whatever to the backside of the front piece. Also, you could use this to method to make interesting effects, such as brass, copper or wood veneer inserts to get "color". Just a thought... Lynn ------ Date: Sat, 06 Aug 2005 23:59:00 -0400 From: hudakjmx~xxmcmaster.ca Subject: Re: Tooling Marks Back in the day when I was still working in a metallurgical lab what we used to do was to mount the job on a flat holder. We then polished the work piece on successively smaller grit sizes of silicon carbide papers using water or kerosene as a flood lubricant. By this I mean we actually submerged the paper in water and did our grinding/polishing under the liquid. Of course we had motorized machines to do this but it can be done by hand. Silicon carbide papers come in very fine grit sizes. I've seen them as small as 8000 grit in auto body shop supply shops. There are even finer ones but they get pretty expensive. By the time you get to this small size of grit you are in effect polishing the work piece. It won't necessarily be a "mirror" finish but it will be shiny. All this grinding/polishing actually goes quite quickly - typically just minutes if you are working with aluminum. You didn't say if this is production job or you're doing just a few pieces. As others have said, you'll probably never get rid of the marks with just machining. Of course it pays to minimize the marks during the machining process. Part of the reason is that the machining process actually causes sub-surface damage to the microstucture of the metal. Just buffing will not get rid of it as the buffing process will just reveal more of the sub-surface damage. You must first grind past the damage layer and then buff/polish. Aluminum can be particularly prone to this damaging effect. I would also agree here that using carbide tool bits is probably part of the problem. Some carbides, like the tungsten carbide in the bits, can actually make the situation worse. Another way to get rid of machining marks as used in industry is by electrochemical means, although this requires some extremely nasty chemicals, so we won't go there. So ... I'd say you're pretty much going to have to use some sort of mild grinding and then polishing to get your "polished" look. Good luck. John ------- Date: Sat, 6 Aug 2005 23:44:54 -0700 From: "Larry Richter" Subject: Re: Re: Tooling Marks John is right. Here's the deal: Buffing works, you can really put a finish on parts with buffing, shops avoid it whenever possible and dread it, and buffing as an industry earns a lot of money. From this you might guess: 1) there is more to buffing than just polishing, 2) it's a whole dern other business than machining, 3) you can't learn it as a lark or a joke or without getting some real equipment, 4) not everybody can have two professions or major hobbies that aren't much alike without shorting one or both; even while hating the expense, shops will either hire it out to experts or hire in some experts, 5) there are such things as experts, and for you to become one or like one is going to cost. To me, the closest that a hobby/one-man-shop industry comes to getting a grip on hard metal buffing, which like the man says, involves 3 or 4 stages of treatment that use buffs, but with grinding compounds on them instead of polish, is gunsmithing. I did it on knifeblades for awhile, was fair, or rather got by, but had the advantage of getting advice (actually, direct orders and commands) from Bob Brownell, of Brownell's Gunsmithing supply in Montezuma, Iowa. He liked everything about firearms, but good buffing practice was like a religion to him, he preached it and taught it, as a treat and a duty, and he got results. He impressed. Brownell's is still there, and still sells the right stuff and the best of everything for small scale metal finishing, but it's hard to imagine they have anybody like the old man now. Changes in polishing because of new applications, I think first begun in electronics, means too that are many systems of buffing now that really work, but with what I've seen, it's whole hog or no hog. You can only get a cheap handle on it by being lax on standards, or by being lucky, by which I mean having a use that can just be shorted for some reason. Specifics: the idea is to start with a coarse grit, maybe 150 or 200, maybe 80 or 60, in a grease or glue base, then buff until all coarser defects than those from your grit have gone, then go to the next finer grit, with new buffs, switch the direction of buffing 90 degrees, and wipe away all the scratches from the grit before, go to the next finer, all new, switch 90 again, until you get to a polish stage at 600 or so, with a hard felt wheel. Nothing mixed or contaminated. The metal (hardened steel in my case, and brass doodads) will simply glow. Odds are it will also have all sorts of lost corners, rolled edges, and other kinds of low viz defects that a good professional buffer can routinely avoid. It's an investment and a new field no matter how you go at it, and like architects couldn't get fully back into architecture until they mastered computer drafting a couple decades ago, you'll have to make an investment to get back to business too. Habits of hand usage and safety and job thinking are different, and exciting experiences with objects shooting across the room at high speed (possibly including toward you if you don't come up with good stop bars, and maybe even if you do) are guaranteed. Knife blades are especially attention-getting in this respect. Still fun in it, even so. People are always mystfied by shiny, go figure, sometimes it's fun when they say "gosh!" or the like. A shame you can't hear Bob Brownell on it. He was great. ------- polishing and deburring [taigtools] Posted by: "Collins, Graham" collingx~xxnavcanada.ca Date: Mon Aug 28, 2006 8:55 am (PDT) Anyone use a rock tumbler for polishing, deburing or smoothing machined parts edges? If so, what type of media for what type of materials? Rotary or vibratory? I ask from the point of view of small aluminum, steel, cast iron, and brass parts used in small model engines.' Comments, suggestions ? Thanks, Graham in Embrun near Ottawa, Canada ------- Re: polishing and deburring Posted by: "Nicholas Carter and Felice Luftschein" felicex~xxcasco.net Date: Mon Aug 28, 2006 9:29 am (PDT) I have a small vibratory I use, as does a friend who uses a large vibratory tumbler for aluminum parts he is sending out to anodize. You generally use ceramic media (available in different sizes/abrasivenesss). A vibratory tumbler is quicker, but a rotary will work fine if speed isn't an issue. See our homepage at www.cartertools.com/nfhome.html ------- Re: polishing and deburring Posted by: "Collins, Graham" collingx~xxnavcanada.ca Date: Mon Aug 28, 2006 9:37 am (PDT) Is there any advantage (or conversely dis-advantage) of one over the other in regards to removing too much? I suppose that is really a question of the type and coarseness of the media, too coarse and you will wear away too much too quickly. Speed isn't an issue and I have been looking at the rotary ones. Some of the smaller vibrating ones are actually cheaper than the rotary ones. There is lots of info and opinions in various groups around the internet which just makes it more confusing. Thanks for your comments. Cheers, Graham ------- Re: polishing and deburring Posted by: "Nicholas Carter and Felice Luftschein" felicex~xxcasco.net Date: Mon Aug 28, 2006 9:41 am (PDT) It is grit/size of media/part size dependent as well as vibratory/rotary dependent. I have found that all tumbling ultimately requires some experiment until you have an idea - stop every half hour, note finish of part, resume if not done. Take notes of grit/size/speed and you will build up some data. See our homepage at www.cartertools.com/nfhome.html ------- Re: polishing and deburring Posted by: "Collins, Graham" collingx~xxnavcanada.ca Date: Mon Aug 28, 2006 9:49 am (PDT) Good advice and I was already thinking down those lines. Always something new to try and in that is the challenge that sends me off down these different paths. Thanks again, Cheers, Graham ------- Re: polishing and deburring Posted by: "Jeff Demand" jdemandx~xxgmavt.net Date: Mon Aug 28, 2006 4:32 pm (PDT) Graham, I use vibratory tumblers for smoothing jewellery castings (after initial manual filing, emery paper etc) with green plastic medium media. I use a water flow thru set-up, the ground up media soap scum etc. really slows the action down after a couple of hours without the flow thru keeping everything clean. For light deburring you Might be able to work without the flow. For other than a very slow polishing process (rouge charged walnut shells dry in a vibratory) you are talking about a wet process...might not agree with cast iron :-) For cheap dry vibratories look at re-loader gun sites, for wet ones jewellery tool suppliers (premium $). Or consider just buying the bowl and making a spring mounted plate with a motor spinning an off balance weight. Study the available pictures, it's not rocket science. But I'd recommend buying the media, and there are a couple of jewellery related books out there. Jeff ------- Re: polishing and deburring Posted by: "Don Rogers" Donx~xxCampbell-Gemstones.com Date: Tue Aug 29, 2006 12:01 pm (PDT) I used to sell tumblers in my store. The Vibrator type will be your best bet. The rotary tumblers eat the corners, followed by the edges and then finally start on the flats. The vibrator attacks more evenly. Make sure the part(S) can easily slide around in the barrel or tub. There should be enough depth to cover the part plus at least 1/4 the part depth. Note, the vibrator types are very aggressive so watch your time closely. Don ------- Re: Flywheel finishing question [Min_Int_Comb_Eng] Posted by: "fishnotchips" chris.hubbardx~xxtiscali.co.uk Date: Fri Oct 6, 2006 9:32 am (PDT) "corey94945" wrote: > I went to the GEARS show two weeks ago and one of the things that > caught my attention was how beautifully finished the flywheels were on > many of the engines. The rims were in a high state of polish with no > rust. Someone that I spoke to said that he treats the wheel with > laquer after polishing to prevent rust. What I'm wondering is how the > flywheels are prepared to get that mirror finish. Are they shined up > with progressively finer grits of sandpaper on the lathe and that's > it. Or, do they get buffed on a wheel, and if so does this happen in > the lathe or freehand? Any tips and pointers appreciated. I assume that you mean the flywheels on hit & miss engines. I polish these in the lathe & use "Wet&Dry" paper that is used when spraying cars. Start with 400 grade & work up to 1200grade. Tear a strip of paper and fit on a piece of thin flat steel-a 6" rule is ideal. Then with caution use this to polish the rim. The lathe needs to be going reasonably fast. As you work through the various grades of paper the quality of finish will improve considerably. To further improve this you could then use diamond pastes. Start with 25 micron & finish with 5 micron. Apply a very small amount of the paste to a piece of flat wood, mahogany is ideal, press lightly onto the rim. With care a mirror-like finish is easily obtained. When finished clean the work and apply a couple of coats of car polish. This will stop air getting to the surface & will prevent rusting. Coating with lacquer is o.k. but it discolours and eventually starts to come off. I hope this helps ------- Re: Flywheel finishing question Posted by: "David Everett" deverett2003x~xxyahoo.co.uk Date: Fri Oct 6, 2006 1:26 pm (PDT) Corey: If you are modelling an antique engine, then in all probability the original flywheel and any unpainted parts would not have been buffed up. They were utility engines after all, and usually built down to a price! But if you want to have a mirror finish on the bare metal, then go for it. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Regards Dave Saudi-Arabia-On-Sea ------- Painting, etc. [LittleEngines] Posted by: "Jim Knighton" jim_knightonx~xxmsn.com Date: Sun Nov 12, 2006 12:43 pm ((PST)) Hi! I'm new to steam engines, although not to hobby machining. Interests change over time, and all that, and I'm now building a few steam engines to see if they hold my interest. Current project is a PM Research Model 3 that's nearing completion. Anyway, I see a lot of photos here of elegantly painted models and I'm trying to figure out how to get similar results. In years past I tried painting some model RR metal stuff with only fair results, so I guess I was doing something wrong. How do you guys go about getting a model ready for painting, and how do you go about it (the painting)? Since I don't have a spare oven I can dedicate to shop use, like for curing, I don't think powder coating is an option for me. I have an airbrush and have used it to good effect with Floquil paints on wood and plastic. So, the question isn't so much about that as stuff like polishing, prep, type of paints to use, appropriate primers, curing (if necessary), etc. Can anyone give me some tips and/or point me to a good source of relevant information? Regards, Jim -------- Re: Painting, etc. Posted by: "corey renner" vandal968x~xxgmail.com Date: Sun Nov 12, 2006 1:37 pm ((PST)) Jim, prep and painting of model engines was last month's technical topic in my model engineering club. A description of the techniques used by one of our more accomplished members should be published in the newsletter next week. Most of the newsletters are available on our website: http://www.baemclub.com/ If you are in the Bay Area of California, you should drop by the meeting and check it out. cheers, c ------- Re: Painting, etc. Posted by: "buffaloman97405" bhudson9216x~xxmsn.com Date: Sun Nov 12, 2006 11:25 pm ((PST)) I use an older Pache H airbrush. This works fine for enamel or lacquer. But any kind of air brush or spray gun requires a lot of clean up of the gun after the spray job. It is hardly worth all that mess for a project as small as a model engine. Floquil is not a good paint for engines. It is designed mainly for railroad and military model work. Enamel is probably the best to use on engines as it is not bothered by fuel or oil. Rattle cans off the shelf are limited in types and colors of paints available but in the next town from here is a paint company that will put your paint into a rattle can for you. I have my paint mixed at a commercial automtive paint company and then have it put into the rattle can. But the problem is the rattle can costs about $8 to buy and fill. Another alternative (my preference when the job is too small for a spray gun set up) is to use a PreVal. It is a pressurized unit (charged with a propellant) that screws on the top of a jar. You can buy the charge unit and jars separately. I have my paint mixed, then use the PreVal to spray. Actually works pretty good. Of course when I have a larger job I use a touch up gun. But the clean up is time consuming. I like the PreVal so I can just pour out the paint from the jar and rinse out with thinner or just put a cap on it and save it for another time. To clean the spray unit I just keep a jar with thinner in it and screw the unit on the thinner jar and blow a little thinner through it. At the automotive paint store I also buy an etching primer (rattle can) which is sandable. I build up a nice primer base with a final wet sanding of 400 wet or dry. Let it dry overnight and then apply color coat. The smoother your primer coat the better your top coat will be. The less you have to work the top enamel coat the better. Enamel does not take to sanding or rubbing out well. Bill ------- Re: Painting, etc. Posted by: "Ken Brockway" WB2TDGx~xxaol.com Date: Mon Nov 13, 2006 11:52 am ((PST)) Hi Jim, If you're looking for a high gloss finish you have to "finish" the castings and then apply 2 or 3 coats of a sandable primer while sanding in between the coats. You should finish up using 1000 grit paper using it wet. The finish paint hides little or no defects at all. I use a high quality model airplane paint from Top Flight called Lustrecoat. It goes on very smooth with no orange peel and dries quickly to a high gloss. The best part is that it will not be affected by oils or fuels your engine may come in contact with. It may be bought at hobby shops or mail ordered thru Tower Hobbies. A link to the paint is: www2.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin/wti0001p?&I=LXCZW4&P=7 I also like using powdercoat. It is not as hard to use as a lot of people say it is. I just use a toaster oven to bake on my finishes. The toaster oven will hold most steam engines and more. I even was able to do my full size sidewheel steam boat paddles in it. The finish I like the best is obtained from using Rustoleum's Texture paint directly on my castings. It is a VERY FINE sand like finish that dries to a semigloss finish. It gives your project that "Old Look" and is easy to apply. I just file the rough casting marks, clean with a degreaser and paint. It will hide some marks. An example maybe seen on my web site. www.mysidewheeler.com When you get there just click on the page for how I built PM Research's New Dynamo. You may also see the powdercoating done on my paddles. Have fun and I'm glad to see you're trying to do a nice job on the finishes. I've seen many a nice engine but a lot of them lack good finishes and a nice display base. You might post a picture when you're done. Ken Brockway ------- Re: Painting, etc. Posted by: "Gordon" glachnietx~xxyahoo.com Date: Mon Nov 13, 2006 11:57 am ((PST)) There are many colors available with a quality spray like Rustoleum and many tractor colors at places like Tractor Supply or Farm and Fleet. There are also many automotive colors available at your auto supply store. The trick is to put on a good sandable primer and sanding with fine sandpaper like 400 or finer before putting on the top coat. If you can see scratches in the primer coat you will see them in the finish coat. Clear coat can be applied over the final coat or over unpainted surfaces. Probably talking to the auto supply store where they sell automotive paint will get you the right materials. ------- Re: Painting, etc. Posted by: "Jim Knighton" jim_knightonx~xxmsn.com Date: Mon Nov 13, 2006 11:25 am ((PST)) Bill: Thanks for the tips - they help a lot. I know what you mean about the cleanup problem, but if the only tool you have is a hammer, every problem looks like a nail. I've spent a LOT of time cleaning the airbrush. Anyway, I guess I'll try some enamel in rattle cans and see how it works. I have some enamel touch up paint that came with my mill/drill. That stuff is pretty insensitive to surface prep and I've brushed it on over all sorts of crap to hide dings and whatnot. It acts like primer isn't needed, at least on cast iron. Some Testor's spray enamel I have on hand says it can be sprayed over bare but clean metal. Is this a good idea, or should I use the primer? Regards, Jim ------- Re: Painting, etc. Posted by: "buffaloman97405" bhudson9216x~xxmsn.com Date: Mon Nov 13, 2006 9:02 pm ((PST)) >Some Testor's spray enamel I have on hand says it can be sprayed over >bare but clean metal. Is this a good idea, or should I use the primer? Jim, I would stay completely away from model paints, even the primers. Most likely they are not compatible. Go the extra distance and get a good automotive primer. You will not be sorry. Also if using rattle can paint check to see time limit for second coat. Many of the newer Rustolium etc. cannot be given a second coat after so many hours. You will end up with a crinkle finish. Special note: Hammers do not work well for cleaning air brushes. ;-). Bill ------- Re: Painting, etc. Posted by: "buffaloman97405" bhudson9216x~xxmsn.com Date: Mon Nov 13, 2006 10:07 pm ((PST)) >>Special note: Hammers do not work well for cleaning air brushes. ;-). > Bill, how do you know that? :o) Carl Loaned out my $90 Pasche to a friend (????) He ran acrylic through it and let it set up before he tried to clean it. Rather than bring it back to me and let me run lighter fluid through it he tried to scrape the needle with an Xacto knife blade. When I told him he had ruined it and it was only good for the scrap bin he asked if I would give it to him. Didn't offer to pay for a new air brush. While he was looking I grabbed my sledge hammer and flattened the air brush out on my anvil and then gave it to him. It really was worth the look on his face. Bill ------- Re: Best finish on 6061 Al? [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: "Jay Greer" redwitch1x~xxearthlink.net Date: Wed Feb 21, 2007 10:03 am ((PST)) on 2/21/07 9:36, Mike Andre at mandrex~xxen.com wrote: > I've made a few items out of 6061 and the surface finish, while pretty > good, certainly isn't in the 'mirror' category. I'm hoping to anodize > these and understand one needs to have an ultra-smooth finish > otherwise the anodizing will exaggerate any imperfections. > Not wanting to re-invent the wheel, what method do you folks use to > get a bright finish on 6061? All the best, Mike Mike, I polish off with several ultra fine grits of wet and dry paper. Emery cloth doesn't hack it. Fair Winds, Jay Greer Boat Builder ------- Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2008 18:13:06 EDT From: Sgt42RHRx~xxaol.com Subject: [OldTools] Removing zinc plating from wood screws Yo Esteemed Colleagues, A very helpful Galoot suggested a couple of weeks ago that I could remove zinc plating from wood screws, bolts and nuts by soaking them in vinegar. As a test, I tossed a few zinc plated screws in a bowl of ordinary household cider vinegar. After a week or so I retrieved them and rinsed them off and it seemed to have worked reasonably well. My question is this: would a really stout mix of citric acid likely accomplish the same more quickly and more completely? Also, anyone have any idea if screws 'un-plated' in this way could then be browned successfully using a cold, barrel browning solution? I have six forged hinges (8 #14 screws each hinge) and 4 sets of hook and eye fixtures (4 #10 screws each set), I'm trying to create screws that will appear consistent in their 18th century appearance with the forged hardware (which are the usual gray-black color of forged iron items). In the past I have burned the zinc off of screw heads using a propane torch and dropping them into motor oil. This works tolerably well but I was searching for a batch process for the 70 odd screws, bolts, and nuts I need for my project. As always, your advice and suggestions are most gratefully appreciated. Cheers, John M. Johnston ------- Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2008 12:25:25 -0700 (PDT) From: Thomas Conroy Subject: [OldTools] Re: Removing zinc plating from wood screws Oh Galoots: John asked: > would a really stout mix of citric acid likely accomplish the same > more quickly and more completely?" A bit marginally, but last night I used citric acid removed crusty corrosion from parts of a piece of brass. It worked just fine, but by the time the corroded parts were clean (maybe forty minutes) the uncorroded parts had turned copper color. I think the acid stripped the zinc out of the alloy at the surface -- I seem to remember reading somewhere that this is possible. Citric, I conclude, has a strong effect on zinc. > Also, anyone have any idea if screws 'un-plated' in this way could then > be browned successfully using a cold, barrel browning solution? I've used cold bluing on planes, including screws. I got a very dark, blue-black color that to my eye is quite different from the grey-black of forging or the brown-black of weathered steel. Easy enough to try and see on a part of the screw that doesn't show. I like the blue-black, but the effect might not look authentic. The books say cold bluing is fragile, but I haven't found it so. Tom Conroy San Francisco ------- Date: Sat, 13 Sep 2008 14:28:56 -0700 (PDT) From: John Odom Subject: [OldTools] Vinegar Vinegar is 5% acetic, and works well for zinc removal. This was the strongest acid available to the ancients. ------- Painting aluminum castings [LittleEngines] Posted by: "upand_at_them" upand_at_themx~xxyahoo.com Date: Thu Feb 19, 2009 3:02 pm ((PST)) Anyone know what's good for painting aluminum engine castings? I see that Rust-oleum makes a latex primer for aluminum, but wouldn't this be too thick? I'd like for the rough casting texture to show. Mike ------- Re: Painting aluminum castings Posted by: "David Everett" deverett2003x~xxyahoo.co.uk Date: Thu Feb 19, 2009 3:29 pm ((PST)) Use an etch primer, sometimes known as a wash primer. Then use a normal primer and carry on as you would otherwise. Many etch primers contain chromates and can be hazardous to health if the correct precautions are not observed, but there are some that do not contain chromates. Also, many come as 2 pack products but in the UK area U-Pol #8 is available as an aerosol. Regards Dave The Emerald Isle [and in a later message] upand_at_them wrote: > Makes me wish the castings were iron. Dave replied: If you get the chance to read the book "How Not To Paint A Locomotive", you will see that Chris Vine recommends applying etch primer to any metal surface as a first coat. ------- Re: Painting aluminum castings Posted by: "Jim E." jim0000x~xxattglobal.net Date: Fri Feb 20, 2009 9:52 am ((PST)) You don't need a primer, just wash the castings with solvent 'n detergent and dry. My PM 2A is Ford Engine Blue: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/LittleEngines/photos/alb um/747278980/pic/list partly powdercoated, partly airbrushed w/Testors enamel. You can probably get away with what you want to accomplish with a can of Pactra or Testor's spray enamel paint, available from your local hobby store. Or, drop by your local auto parts place 'n get a small can of touch-up paint - very durable, quick dry lacquers. Graciously, Jim E. Lakewood, CA ------- Re: Painting aluminum castings Posted by: "David Black" generaldavex~xxgmail.com Date: Fri Feb 20, 2009 6:33 pm ((PST)) I've found the Rustoleum "Professional" series of enamel paints to come out with a very good finish and durability. The color choices are limited and they only come in gallon ad large spray can sizes, but it can be nicely wet sanded and buffed for a very glossy finish if desired. ------- Re: Painting aluminum castings Posted by: "John Thornton" jthorn65x~xxsbcglobal.net Date: Fri Feb 20, 2009 6:43 pm ((PST)) I've had good luck using the higher quality rattle-can paints. I do clean the part meticulously and after the final coat I put the part in a 200° F oven for about an hour to an hour and one half depending on the size of the part. I then turn the oven off and let the part sit overnight to cool. Baking the finish really seems to increase its durability. I do advise getting a second oven for "cooking parts". Electric is safer since there is less danger of igniting fumes. John Thornton ------- Re: Painting aluminum castings Posted by: "James Early" j.w.earlyx~xxworldnet.att.net Date: Sat Feb 21, 2009 6:21 am ((PST)) The back window of a car parked in the sun also does an excellent job of baking paint. I used this method for years baking wrinkle paint on slot car motor cans. JWE Long Beach, CA ------- Re: Painting aluminum castings Posted by: "r_corriveau" r_corriveaux~xxyahoo.com Date: Sat Feb 21, 2009 3:43 pm ((PST)) Should I scrape the ice off the window first? :) Robert Quebec, Canada ------- Re: Painting aluminum castings Posted by: "James Early" j.w.earlyx~xxworldnet.att.net Date: Sat Feb 21, 2009 5:29 pm ((PST)) You poor soul, I emigrated from the cold country in 1947 to where we have to go to the mountains to visit the cold stuff. JWE Long Beach, CA ------- Searching past 2003 [Heat Bluing Steel] [posted in sherline group] Posted by: "Flosi Gudmundsson" flosigudx~xxsimnet.is Date: Tue Apr 28, 2009 3:58 pm ((PDT)) Group. I was trying to find a post by W.R Smith where he describes his bluing technique. The oldest posts I found were from the year 2003. Anyone know how to search older posts? I think he posted this in the last century. Regards, Flosi in Iceland ------- Re: Searching past 2003 Posted by: "Tom & Judy Bank" trbank1x~xxverizon.net Date: Wed Apr 29, 2009 11:02 am ((PDT)) Flosi, how about these two versions. Regards, Tom Bank FIRST VERSION ===> Subject: Heat bluing shop tip From: WRSmith2x~xxaol.com Hi All, Some of you may wish to heat blue tools or part that you have made. This afternoon, I needed to blue the frame screws for a clock I am presently building. Here is what I found. With the screw head polished and free of oil or other contaminants, I placed them, one at time, in a bluing holder that is a piece of brass about 0.020" thick and 5/8" x 3/4" with a hole in it to accept the screw and with a handle. I mention the size only to indicate that it is not a great heat sink. An alcohol lamp was used that has a wick of about 3/8" in diameter. Here is the interesting thing that I noted. Once the screw began to change color, I could remove it completely from the flame and it would continue to increase in color for as long as about 10-seconds. To me, this indicates that the screw temperature was high enough for the blue I wanted, and possibly even more, but it took time for the oxide to form. This also indicates the need to quench the screw at the right color because it could possibly pass through that color and have to be re-polished for another try at bluing. TTYL W. R. (Bill) Smith SECOND VERSION ===> Subject: Shop Tip - Heat Bluing Tool Steel From: WRSmith2x~xxaol.com All, Often modelers wish to blue a steel part by heating it. Just as often, they end up with a blue that is not uniform and needs to be redone. Perhaps a few tips will be helpful to those who have no experience with heat bluing. Check a small portion of the steel to see if it will blue with heat. Some tool steels will not and it is always frustrating to have made a part that one intends to blue, only to discover that the steel will not blue with heat. The better the finish of the steel before bluing the better the final results. Wash with cigarette lighter fluid to remove all finger marks and grease. Heat with a torch or with the part lying on a bed of clean brass shavings in a metal container on a stove eye. Now, here is the real trick. If the first blue is unacceptable, save yourself a lot of refinishing by boiling the part in a glass container filled with water and 100% boric acid. The 100% boric acid is easily obtained from the hardware store in the form of roach powder. Be sure it says 100% boric acid. Add as much as the water will dissolve and boil the part in it. Only a very few minutes will be required. The blue will be removed and only a few licks with 600 emery paper will brighten the part again and it will be ready to be buffed for a second try. This trick saves a lot of time that would otherwise be used polishing away the old blue coat. W. R. (Bill) Smith ------- Re: Working from plans ? [taigtools] Posted by: "Stan Stocker" skstockerx~xxcomcast.net Date: Wed Sep 9, 2009 6:17 am ((PDT)) Ken Cline wrote: > You had to do it - post a challenge. And a good one at that! > It looks like Elmer's engines is out of print, though Amazon lists six > copies ranging in price from $385 to $3000. Scanned copies can be > found on the web and I couldn't resist peeking. I can cope with > adjectival tolerances ((P) for press fit (C) for close fit), no problem. > I do have one question: How do you turn a smooth and accurate bearing > surface (e.g. a piston or crankshaft)? It is just a matter of taking > a light, slow finish pass with a sharp tool, or are special techniques > (e.g. grinding) needed? Hi Ken: The finish depends on the material. If using steel I polish with papers up to whatever level of "smooth" is needed. Usually up to 1200 or so. You can go to a full mirror finish if you like, but this is probably too smooth and will fail early as the fine imperfections in a smooth but not quite mirror finish help hold oil. Brass and aluminum are pretty close to ready off the lathe if you use carefully ground tools and fine clean up passes. You can use a hardwood lap with Bon-Ami or Timesavers compound to do a final cleanup if you are a purist, or just use fine papers and clean very well. There is a small but non zero chance that material will embed into the softer metal and cause wear down the road, but it hasn't caused me problems provided lots of oil is used on the paper to float the dust off the work. Steel shafts I just polish up with paper, and use drill rod with a good surface at the target size whenever possible. If the shaft has to be turned, again good technique gives a pretty good finish, and a fine file gets you ready to polish quickly. Cheers, Stan ------- Date: Sun, 31 Jan 2010 18:37:16 -0500 From: Tim Subject: Re: [OldTools] painting aluminum Joseph Sullivan wrote: > Galoots: I have some nice aluminum angle stock I'd like to use for winding sticks. However, I need to darken one of them to help my aging eyes do the sighting. I have some old fashioned black crinkle paint such as was used on radios and the like in my youth. However, paint notoriously flakes off aluminum if it is not prepped and primed right. I don't know how to prep and prime it. Do any of you know how? Joe < The key to painting aluminum is surface preparation. It is necessary to wash and degrease the aluminum well, then to mechanically remove the surface oxidation. Woven abrasive (scrunge type) pads work well for this. Then use a good self etching primer designed for aluminum. Check with your paint store to ensure that the top coat is compatible with the primer. My 1926 Franklin auto uses aluminum extensively. The engine, bell housing, transmission housing and all the external body sheet metal (except for fenders) are aluminum sheathed. I learned a couple of lessons the hard way, about what "really clean and prepared" aluminum means. Tim ------- Date: Sun, 31 Jan 2010 19:27:18 -0500 From: Charlie Rodgers Subject: Re: [OldTools] painting aluminum The old* 35' whip antennas onboard ships were 5 sections of aluminum. New sections were scrubbed with soap & water, let dry completely, sprayed with zinc chromate and then brush painted haze gray. That would do it for 2-3 years unless something damaged the paint job. If refurbishing one, we'd sand to bare aluminum and then go thru the same schedule. I have no idea if you can buy zinc chromate nowadays, or if there's a better product, but it was/is a really good aluminum primer. * The US Navy went to fiberglass antennas (well, the actual antenna was a braided copper element embedded in a fiberglass tube) in the late '70s, as the aluminum demanded too much maintenance - but they were good antennas. Charlie Rodgers Clinton, Maryland who used to climb all over those bird farm islands ------- Date: Sun, 31 Jan 2010 21:35:37 -0500 From: "Jay moyer" Subject: [OldTools] Re: painting aluminum Tim and Charlie set you straight on preparation. For a good general bond, Prep as said previously and then find a product called OSPHO; apply, and let dry. Then paint. If you want the absolute best bond, go to your local PPG automotive dealer and pickup some DX533 aluminum cleaner and DX503 Aluminum condition, also known as alodine. Alodine is what should of been under zinc chromate primer. Zinc chromate is very nasty stuff, been linked to some mental degenerate diseases so epoxy has taken its place. For what you are going to do however OSPHO will be just fine. I get it at my local Ace Hardware store. ------- Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2011 07:50:49 -0400 From: Ed Minch Subject: [OldTools] Patination GG I am a little frustrated. I am building a cherry table that has some brass accents and I am trying to tone down the bright brass so as not to look so vivid. I don't need much, just knock off the shine and turn it a little brown. I has some "brass black" from another project, but it is too black and not easy to control over a larger surface. MLW is a jeweler and turned me on to http://www.sciencecompany.com/patinas/patinasintro.htm A company that not only has the formulae, but sells the chemicals in small quantities at reasonable prices. I picked two of them, the #1 and the #4 that use Ferric Nitrate and Ferric Chloride. I washed the sample pieces of brass in hot soapy water, then abraded the surfaces ith a worn green scrubby. I couldn't get the #1 formula to do anything whatsover, and the #4 was very splotchy. Does anyone have a favorite brass toner-downer? Ed Minch ------- Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2011 08:54:04 -0500 From: Mike Siemsen Subject: Re: [OldTools] Patination Ed, the easiest and cheapest way to color brass that I know of is to use ammonia. Polish the parts and wash them in soap and water. Suspend the part by wires from a stick spanning the top of a coffee with about 1/8 to 14 inch houshold ammonia cleaner (strongest you can find); put a loose lid on the can. Set the can up on a couple of bricks and heat the bottom with a propane torch to get the ammonia steaming/boiling. When the can cools your parts will have a nice green patina that you can knock back a bit until it looks the way you want it to. You can wax it a bit with shoe polish to shift the color a mite. You could also try the patinas you have but they probably need to be applied to hot metal, again heat with the torch and apply with a cheap chip brush; don't use a brush that will melt. Make sure you have ventilation for both methods. Mike ------- NOTE TO FILE: The following site has a number of formulas for colouring (patinating) Brass, Bronze and Copper: http://www.sciencecompany.com/patinas/patinaformulas.htm ------- NOTE TO FILE: This subject in the myfordlathes group has been covered before during discussions in other groups, but Ian's input with pictures is certainly appreciated. Re: Question about blackening metal [myfordlathes] Posted by: "Ian Newman" ian_newx~xxyahoo.com Date: Fri Aug 12, 2011 8:03 am ((PDT)) Hi, I realize that it probably a bit late and you may have already tried oil blacking (I've only just caught up with this thread). If not, the pictures below show the process: First clean your parts: http://i219.photobucket.com/albums/cc210/ian-new/Oil%20Blac king/1-cleanpart.jpg Get some old engine oil: http://i219.photobucket.com/albums/cc210/ian-new/Oil%20Blac king/2-dirtyoil.jpg Heat part (colour does not show well - flash photography): http://i219.photobucket.com/albums/cc210/ian-new/Oil%20Blac king/3-hotpart.jpg Plunge hot part in to the oil: http://i219.photobucket.com/albums/cc210/ian-new/Oil%20Blac king/4-plungingthepart.jpg Result: http://i219.photobucket.com/albums/cc210/ian-new/Oil%20Blac king/5-result.jpg http://i219.photobucket.com/albums/cc210/ian-new/Oil%20Blac king/sampleparts.jpg Ian ------- polishing aluminum and lead [sherline] Posted by: "Art Fish" 1art2fishx~xxcomcast.net Date: Thu Oct 13, 2011 9:25 am ((PDT)) When you scrape/turn aluminum or lead, the 'white' metal is exposed with no oxide showing and is really bright and shiny. I would like to polish some aluminum, and in the past some lead, then coat with lacquer or something to maintain the shiny finish. I have acid etch that will work on aluminum, but don't want to use it on my clock parts because of the steel arbors etc. Does anyone know of something that can be used on aluminum, similar to ammonia on brass, that will remove the oxide and discoloration without corroding everything else in the clock? I'm sure aluminum will stay shiny, once cleaned and coated, but how about lead... will it stay shiny after coating with lacquer or urethane, or will it dull regardless? Thanks Art Fish Corvallis, OR Back In Time Clock Repair ------- Re: polishing aluminum and lead Posted by: "Gerald Goldberg" goldbergtoolx~xxyahoo.com Date: Thu Oct 13, 2011 9:44 am ((PDT)) Try Flitz or Simichrome or Brasso. ------- NOTE TO FILE: Another quality metal polish is Autosol. Note also, for this and any other polishing product there is often a residue (designed to protect against further oxidation) that must be thoroughly removed before applying a clear coat like lacquer. ------- Re: polishing aluminum and lead Posted by: "Andy M" trumpy81x~xxoptusnet.com.au Date: Thu Oct 13, 2011 9:53 am ((PDT)) GDay All, Art, as far as aluminium goes, you can anodize with clear but you lose most of the shine. Same goes for clear lacquer or shellac. The only coating I know of for lead is clear lacquer or shellac which will also dull the finish somewhat, just like aluminium. Regards Andy M ------- sandpaper [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: "blackfox3883" blackfox3883x~xxyahoo.com Date: Sat Nov 26, 2011 4:30 pm ((PST)) What type, grit, grade, etc. of sandpaper are you guys using for polishing on the lathe? ------- Re: sandpaper Posted by: "jerdalx~xxsbcglobal.net" Date: Sat Nov 26, 2011 5:32 pm ((PST)) Only use the "closed coat" type, like 3M "wet or dry" paper..... it won't shed particles. Grit? depends.... usually 200 to 600 grit, depending on what I want it to do. Sometimes coarser, in which case I have used other types than the above. Remember to hold between fingers and never wrap it. JT ------- Re: sandpaper Posted by: "Raymond" jwreyx~xxusa.net Date: Sat Nov 26, 2011 6:45 pm ((PST)) Depends on the material being finished and the starting surface condition; I start with anything from 40 grit to 200 grit and increase incrementally from there up to 600, 800, and 1000 grit. I often finish with medium crocus cloth (iron oxide coated fabric -- the equivalent of jeweler's rouge on stiff fabric) to get a real nice almost-mirror-like finish. If I want to see mirror-like reflections I finish with Simichrome paste available at hardware and hobby stores and motorcycle shops. Raymond ------- Re: sandpaper Posted by: "Carvel Webb" carvelwx~xxabsamail.co.za Date: Sat Nov 26, 2011 9:24 pm ((PST)) And don't forget to protect the bed and other parts while you are doing it :) Regards, Carvel ------- Re: sandpaper Posted by: "James Walther" indianfourriderx~xxyahoo.com Date: Sun Nov 27, 2011 7:14 am ((PST)) I polish a lot of 6061 T6 aluminum for antique motorcycle tail light reflectors. I start with 800 3M closed coat wet/dry silicon carbide paper, lubricated with K1 kerosene, and work up to 1500. Next I use a 2 1/2" x 1/2" spiral- sewn cotton buffing wheel with white rouge in a cordless drill at 700 RPM (+/-) with the edge of the wheel perpendicular to the radius of the workpiece, moving from center to edge. Final finish is with Flitz metal polish on a piece of old cotton t-shirt. All steps are done at 800 spindle RPM - direct-drive B2 on my AC 12-36 QC. I get a mirror-like reflective surface that only requires touching-up with Flitz once a year or so. (Flitz seems to offer better protection against oxidation on the aluminum than either Simichrome or AutoSol, YMMV!) ------- Re: Polishing acrylic [taigtools] Posted by: "Ken" kvaughanx~xxacsalaska.net Date: Thu Aug 9, 2012 3:07 pm ((PDT)) "johnflintus" wrote: > Has anyone in uk any experience of polishing acrylic, I want to polish flat pieces 4" square to the finest finish possible and am wondering what polish and surface speed would be best. I don't want to risk melting the surface level and destroying its flatness. Someone suggested silver polish but I don't know which type they meant. < I am not in the UK -- but do a fair bit with turning acrylics - Question is how flat and how smooth? Flame polishing is fast and with a bit of practice leaves a smooth surface - but may not be as flat as you need. Those who do it regularly can make art with it. There are abrasives sold as "micromesh" and "abralon" that are used to polish aircraft bubbles and the such going to very small particle size and finishing with a buffing polish at about 0.5 microns. http://www.micro-surface.com/ I use these with fair frequency where high polish without much change in dimension is desired. ------- Re: Polishing acrylic Posted by: "Shawn Woolley" shawnwoolleyx~xxmac.com Date: Thu Aug 9, 2012 6:22 pm ((PDT)) As usual everybody is right in a way. I work with acrylics quite a bit in both art and sculpture and with rods, bars and anything else you cut across the grain. Flame is a great finish for cosmetic use only, however on larger areas and flats it is very difficult to do without lines and distortions showing up. This can sometimes be a good thing especially in art. With practice this can be an amazing technique, but just as often it ruins what you're working on. There are lots of polishes that work well; my personal favorite is fairly cheap and easy to find. Now I buy the kits made for polishing automobile headlight covers; it's a great paste and seems to work well and will take most acrylics down to an almost glasslike finish. ------- Re: Polishing acrylic Posted by: "Cyt" kitwarwickx~xxyahoo.co.uk Date: Thu Aug 9, 2012 11:20 pm ((PDT)) > if you don't feel confident [using a torch] use a hot air gun and > slowly (not too close) apply some heat and is will come perfect Toothpaste is a good fine abrasive foe taking out small scratches. Not tried it on larger surfaces. Kit Swansea ------- Re: Polishing acrylic Posted by: "Paul J. Ste. Marie" taigx~xxste-marie.org Date: Fri Aug 10, 2012 8:06 pm ((PDT)) Some toothpaste, not all. I found out to my chagrin that the gels and the extra whitening stuff wreak havoc on plastic when I tried using it on a scratched DVD. Previously I had fixed scratched CDs with the same technique, so I assume that I was brushing my teeth with something less "advanced" at the time. ------- Re: Polishing acrylic Posted by: "ED MAISEY" holmes_ca_2000x~xxyahoo.com Date: Thu Aug 9, 2012 11:30 pm ((PDT)) Why don't you spend $20 dollars and buy one of those headlight kits they advertise, and try that. Edmund ------- Re: Polishing acrylic Posted by: "Will Schmit" anchornmx~xxyahoo.com Date: Fri Aug 10, 2012 4:03 am ((PDT)) One note (from years of polishing stone)... If you want to keep it flat, lap it face down on glass. ------- Re: Polishing acrylic Posted by: "Don" Donx~xxCampbell-Gemstones.com Date: Fri Aug 10, 2012 10:51 am ((PDT)) I'll second the glass lap. Anything other that a flat lap will round the corners. I'll also caution to stay away from Cerium Oxide for your polish as it will embed into the acrylic and you just can't get it out. Last point, use a minimum amount of polish. Excess polish tends to lump together and form little rocks that scratch up the surface. Don ------- Re: Polishing acrylic Posted by: "Stan Stocker" skstockerx~xxcomcast.net Date: Fri Aug 10, 2012 6:59 am ((PDT)) Good morning, If you have an almost polished surface already, you can bring it to a very nice polish using what is known in the US as polywatch. It's a polishing compound sold by horological suppliers to remove fine scratches from acrylic watch crystals. Other polishing compounds are probably just as good or maybe better, but polywatch does remove scratches faster and bring up a better shine than toothpaste. Hope this is helpful, Stan ------- Re: Polishing acrylic Posted by: "Andy Trivette" trivettex~xxcharter.net Date: Sun Aug 12, 2012 6:51 pm ((PDT)) I picked up a headlight lens restore kit, Turtle Wax brand I believe. It comes with rubbing compound, extra fine sanding pads (X4) with lubricant and then a sealer for after you are done polishing them. It restored my headlight to like new condition; think it cost about 9 bucks. Andy ------- Re: Polishing acrylic Posted by: "pe3hmp" pe3hmpx~xxhotmail.com Date: Sun Aug 12, 2012 10:00 pm ((PDT)) Copper polish is cheaper and it does the job too. ------- Re: Polishing acrylic Posted by: "Tony Jeffree" tonyx~xxjeffree.co.uk Date: Thu Aug 16, 2012 9:41 am ((PDT)) On 8/13/2012 2:56 PM, Tony Jeffree wrote [about Barkeeper's Friend]: > > Great for that kind of use, but it is too aggressively abrasive to > > contemplate using it as a polish for acrylic. On 14 August 2012 Paul J. Ste. Marie wrote: > Are you you're not confusing Barkeeper's Friend (oxalic acid) with > Bon Ami (feldspar and soap)? Actually, on investigation, no. BKF is around 10% water soluble ingredients (oxalic acid & surfactant) and around 90% insoluble ingredients (abrasive) - according to the MSDS here: http://www.barkeepersfriend.com/files/MSDS_Bar%20Keepers%20Fri end%20Cleanser%20&%20Polish_2012.pdf So it isn't just oxalic acid... now, whether the abrasive is fine enough not to scratch acrylic or not is another question, but it is certainly abrasive enough to clean fine scratches out of our Corian worktop. Regards, Tony ------- NOTE TO FILE: Jody Collier of www.weldingtipsandtricks.com/ during one of his many how-to videos demonstrated the use of NOVUS 2 Fine Scratch Remover to polish the acrylic protective cover over his face shield. While welding protective shield covers are not expensive, the auto-darkening helmets often have non-standard shapes that are not readily available locally. Being able to repolish plastic at home back to near new condition is a convenience as well as a cost saver. ------- Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2013 15:03:50 -0700 From: James Thompson Subject: Re: [OldTools] Buffin' n' Polishin' On Jun 28, 2013, at 2:05 PM, Adrian Jones wrote: > Project: lovely old hand tool needing TLC > Me: proud owner of a couple of 4" hand grinders (thanks Alex!) > Never done this before- just get some cotton buffing wheels and have at it? > Is the rest used? > Hold pieces with vice grips and dangle against wheel? > Buffing wheel come to you or away? I do a lot of buffing, but I use an 8" diameter unsewn cloth wheel on an electric motor. I find that tripoli works best for the initial buffing of wood. I then polish it on a different wheel (same type) using the white diamond. This is followed by waxing and hand rubbing. Polishing steel and iron, well, it kinda depends on the surface condition before you start. Rough surfaces get shiny with buffing, but they don't get satisfactorily shiny. I find that I need at least a 400 grit surface to get a satisfactory finish on ferrous metals. Brass and copper like the green compound followed by red rouge. I think you are in for a good workout on a hand cranked grinder. ------- Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2013 17:16:33 -0700 From: scott grandstaff Subject: Re: [OldTools] Buffin' n' Polishin' People are going to think this was a setup, no matter what I say A big fat scheme. Just went up today. How to polish metal, 101 www.wkfinetools.com yours Scott Scott Grandstaff Box 409 Happy Camp, Ca 96039 http://www.snowcrest.net/kitty/sgrandstaff/ http://www.snowcrest.net/kitty/hpages/index.html ------- Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2013 20:49:45 -0700 From: scott grandstaff Subject: [OldTools] Hopeless Hammer Obsessive lright you guys! You know what you do to me? Do you? I started this hammer about, I dunno, maybe 5 years ago. This one was fun because it had been through a fire. Now usually this is not a good recommendation for a tool of any kind. But being a hammer, it annealed the steel soft as 7-UP. That meant, I could work on it, with files!! I love to file steel. Sometimes when I am having an otherwise bad day, I will chuck up a piece of scrap and just cut it. Something about the rhythm and watching the work slowly change. The precision of it all. Making such slight adjustments in your stroke and watching it change the shape of the work.It's just magic. So when I had finished my filework, I hardened/tempered it into something new. Well new to me. And I found out something wonderful! Used motor oil makes for a spectacular finish! I had some osage orange out the other day for another project. A spokeshave that went off to Hawaii. I found a spare stick when I was looking for the shave stock. I laid it aside for something nice. Wanna hit something yet?? Dig this: http://users.snowcrest.net/kitty/sgrandstaff/images/hometools/hampin4.jpg http://users.snowcrest.net/kitty/sgrandstaff/images/hometools/hampin3.jpg http://users.snowcrest.net/kitty/sgrandstaff/images/hometools/hampin2.jpg yours Scott Scott Grandstaff Box 409 Happy Camp, Ca 96039 http://www.snowcrest.net/kitty/sgrandstaff/ http://www.snowcrest.net/kitty/hpages/index.html ------- Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2013 23:30:59 -0500 From: Wesley Groot Subject: Re: [OldTools] Hopeless Hammer Obsessive Scott, that's a dandy! Used motor oil is the preferred tool steel quench of just about every old school smith I know. Unfortunately for me, it makes my sinuses slam shut faster than a garage door with a broken spring. (Which is why I use peanut oil.) At Old Cedar Forge, where I got my start, Jerry has a beautiful '57 Kenworth and I bet the quench oil for all 8 of his forging stations used to come from that. Nice work! Wes ------- Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2013 08:54:21 -0700 From: Greg Isola Subject: Re: [OldTools] Hopeless Hammer Obsessive Beautiful, Scott! What's the color/finish on the handle? I've been fiddling with a set of osage chisel handles for eons, and with a straight BLO finish, they are much yellower than yours. Ok, sorta golden, but I prefer the color of your hammer handle. Did you color it at all, or does osage just vary that much? Thanks, GI Greg Isola Alameda, CA ------- Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2013 21:00:56 -0700 (PDT) From: Thomas Conroy Subject: Re: [OldTools] Hopeless Hammer Obsessive Hi, Greg, FWIW, my experience of one piece of osage orange, used by bits over a period of decades, has been that it changes color more than any wood short of cocobolo, but that it takes its time. Mine was medium golden on the surface when I got it, was a harsh yellow when cut (and I've read that the sawdust is a dyestuff, with the color water-soluble even from solid wood), and has darkened into a comfortable deep milk chocolate brown. If I remember correctly, the last time I cut a piece it had darkened even inside, though not as much as on the surface. The hobbithouse page on osage orange has some dramatic pictures of darkening and color variation: http://hobbithouseinc.com/personal/woodpics/osage%20orange.htm There is a web site on osage orange, especially for making archery bows: http://osageorange.com/ Tom Conroy Berkeley ------- Date: Thu, 01 Aug 2013 07:33:28 -0400 From: William Ghio Subject: Re: [OldTools] Hopeless Hammer Obsessive The pic below is of the two fids I made out of Osage Orange. The top one was oiled and set in the sun for two weeks while the bottom one is fresh from the lathe. The color shifts on Osage are dramatic. We used it on a boatbuilding project and I remember times when a fresh cut would be left out at 5 PM and, say a hammer, was left across the timber. The next morning there would be the outline where the hammer had shaded the fresh wood from the moonlight. It is the most photo reactive wood I have run across. Bill http://www.flickr.com/photos/77280442x~xxN07/8976784779/ ------- Date: Fri, 02 Aug 2013 20:27:58 -0400 From: Troy Livingston Subject: Re: [OldTools] Hopeless Hammer Obsessive Scott, I like it and agree filing can be therapeutic. Most of my friends think I am nuts but I actually had fun filing the last set of clock hands I had to make. You got that color just by quenching in used motor oil? I've been using fresh stuff for years but never got color like that! Troy ------- Date: Fri, 02 Aug 2013 18:07:34 -0700 From: James Thompson Subject: Re: [OldTools] Hopeless Hammer Obsessive You can get a glorious black color on tools just like you can on cast iron pans. Just wipe on oil (fresh, used, or edible) and set the BBQ or oven to 350 degrees and cook. Repeat until you have the color you want. The carbon will stay on after the liquid is cooked off. ------- Making 6061 parts dark [SherlineCNC] Posted by: "Thomas D. Dean" tomdeanx~xxspeakeasy.org Date: Thu Aug 15, 2013 7:26 pm ((PDT)) Sorry, if this is too far off topic. I am making some parts for my telescope from 6061. I want them to be black or dark blue, etc. I checked anodizing - the only local shop wants $50 per piece if there is room in a batch or $120 setup fee plus $50 per piece! I tried painting. Sort of worked. I need to go to zinc chromate, bake it (?) then some flat black and bake it (?) I have read that flat black for BBQ's works good. I looked at home anodizing - $800 to start up. Harbor freight has a powder coating setup for $100, including matte black. I am worried about this being too thick. Are there other options? Tom Dean -------- Re: Making 6061 parts dark Posted by: "Shannon Haworth" shannon.haworthx~xxgmail.com Date: Thu Aug 15, 2013 7:39 pm ((PDT)) Thought to myself "I bet gunsmiths have a solution". Sure enough: http://www.birchwoodcasey.com/Finishing/FinishingDetails.aspx?Prod uctID=0790cc91-b2e8-488d-a6fa-8820790beefb ------- Re: Making 6061 parts dark Posted by: "Steve" s.bromleyx~xxcomcast.net Date: Thu Aug 15, 2013 7:40 pm ((PDT)) I've used: http://www.birchwoodcasey.com/Finishing/FinishingDetails.aspx?Prod uctID=0790cc91-b2e8-488d-a6fa-8820790beefb to touch up and blacken Al parts on guns. You might find it or other stuff in local gun shops, guns get scratched and need to be retouched. ------- Re: Making 6061 parts dark Posted by: "Shannon Haworth" shannon.haworthx~xxgmail.com Date: Thu Aug 15, 2013 7:46 pm ((PDT)) LOL Steve, beat you by a minute. I've never used the stuff, how far would a 3oz bottle go? ------- Re: Making 6061 parts dark Posted by: "bruce_e_layne" yahoogroupsx~xxthinkingdevices.com Date: Thu Aug 15, 2013 7:53 pm ((PDT)) I think you'll be happiest with a black anodizing. It produces a hard ceramic coating that greatly resists scratches and corrosion. For even more protection, look into hard anodizing, although the anodizing layer is thicker and can alter part geometries enough that threads might not mesh, etc. $800 is way too much for at-home anodizing. It's just battery acid and a constant current power supply, and some black die and sealer if you want it black. I got my black anodizing supplies from Caswell Plating. I paid a few hundred dollars and I went all out on a small semi-pro system, with titanium racking and electrodes, etc. Black powder coating can work too, and is very home shop friendly. Try Eastwood for the powders. They sell powder coating guns, but for small scale use, I got a $40 Craftsman powder coat gun new on eBay, and it has its own blower so it doesn't need a compressed air line. You can get black powder in gloss, semigloss, matte and crinkle. The latter makes a thick crinkly coating that can hide machining tool marks. You might want to mask any threads to keep most of the powder coat out of them and fog a very thin coat of powder onto the threads so the powder doesn't interfere with the threads. https://www.caswellplating.com www.eastwood.com/paints/hotcoat-powder-coating.html ------- Re: Making 6061 parts dark Posted by: "Andy M" trumpy81x~xxoptusnet.com.au Date: Thu Aug 15, 2013 7:59 pm ((PDT)) GDay Thomas, Yikes, that's hefty for anodising. I don't know about the BBQ black but I would think it would add to the dimensions also. Probably your best bet would be to go with the powder coating. It would certainly be useful for other items as well, so it would not be for a one off part. Do a test piece and then measure it before and after powder coating using a micrometer. That should give you a good idea of what the coating thickness will be and you can compensate for that amount when machining the part/s. I don't know of any other treatments for aluminium. Anodising is the best method I am aware of though. Steel on the other hand can be blackened quite easily without adding to the dimensions. Regards Andy M ------- Re: Making 6061 parts dark Posted by: "Thomas D. Dean" tomdeanx~xxspeakeasy.org Date: Thu Aug 15, 2013 8:56 pm ((PDT)) On 08/15/13 19:58, Andy M wrote: > after further reading, I was quoting a top end kit. I do not really need a kit. I have a goodly amount of 6061 and some 5 gallon buckets from Home Depot. I have a 12v supply from an RV, 40 amps. Purchase 6061 wire (?), battery acid and distilled water. NAPA and Safeway are between here and Home Depot for the wire... I only have one hot plate. How critical is the time between the dye step and the final sealing bath? Very little $ to do an initial test. Tom Dean ------- Re: Making 6061 parts dark Posted by: "Ron Ginger" rongingerx~xxroadrunner.com Date: Fri Aug 16, 2013 4:53 am ((PDT)) I have tried both powder coating and anodizing. Powder Coating is a thicker film, and all of it Ive seen is quite shiny. There is a source for home kits, see http://www.focuser.com/atm/anodize/anodize.html Note this fellow makes telescope parts, and learned to anodize to make them. He was at a Cabin fever show selling his kits and they are under $100. He also will do your parts. I originally tried battery acid, but that stuff causes rust on every surface in the shop. I recently read about, and tried using the acid sold to adjust pH in swimming pools. I got a big can of it for $10 at a local store. I used about half of it in a 2 gal bucket. I used a common 12v battery charger first, then found a nice constant current supply at a surplus store. I also tried the Rit dye from a fabric store and got reasonable results, but a friend wanted to do a panel in a blue gray color and he bought the powder dye from Casswell. I think he said it cost about $10 and it worked well. I had reasonable luck with a few test parts, and have very little invested. ron ginger ------- Re: Making 6061 parts dark Posted by: "Stan Stocker" skstockerx~xxcomcast.net Date: Fri Aug 16, 2013 7:27 am ((PDT)) Greetings. For a one off, consider paints made for firearms. Very tough, apply with airbrush or buy in the spray can. http://www.brownells.com/gunsmith-tools-supplies/metal-prep-col oring/paint-finishes/index.htm Duracoat / Ceracoat / AlumaHyde are the products I think will be of the most interest. Also there is an equivalent to cold bluing solution for aluminum: http://www.brownells.com/gunsmith-tools-supplies/metal-prep-col oring/blackening-browning/aluminum-black-prod4941.aspx Anodizing seems very cool, and can be done inexpensively if you shop with care rather than purchase a turnkey solution. But it will probably still cost more than the $10 to $30 alternatives. The alumaHyde product builds a thicker film than the Duracoat or (naturally) the cold blue. Have fun, Stan ------- Hot Bluing / Hot Blacking / Black Oxidizing [myfordlathes] Posted by: wiktoria_jablonskax~xxyahoo.co.uk Date: Fri Oct 4, 2013 12:50 pm ((PDT)) Just a short note to share with you my first and successful attempt at hot-bluing... Had a very very rusty Quorn handle lying around.... after a bit of work cleaning and polishing, this was then dunked in a very very hot bath containing sodium hydroxide and potassium nitrate + water.... I'm very pleased with the result, and can now confidently go blacking things. If anyone would like the recipe etc then do get in touch. hugs Anna ------- Re: Hot Bluing / Hot Blacking / Black Oxidizing Posted by: "Robert Mitchell" rmm200x~xxyahoo.com Date: Fri Oct 4, 2013 1:02 pm ((PDT)) Very nice job! What are you doing to keep the finished piece from rusting again? I can't think of any permanent coating for a blued piece. Robert Mitchell ------- Re: Hot Bluing / Hot Blacking / Black Oxidizing Posted by: "wiktoria jablonska" wiktoria_jablonskax~xxyahoo.co.uk Date: Fri Oct 4, 2013 1:24 pm ((PDT)) Hello Robert, From what I can gather from my research, the black oxide will provide a good deal of protection against the formation of iron oxides - but only for so long (how long, who knows...)....so I'll use some light oil or even boiled linseed (so I've read) to protect the pieces for as long as I can. And then I can have the great satisfaction of repeating the bluing process again. We'll see. For now I'm happy this bit has worked out. Kindest Anna ------- Re: Hot Bluing / Hot Blacking / Black Oxidizing Posted by: "Robert Mitchell" rmm200x~xxyahoo.com Date: Fri Oct 4, 2013 2:10 pm ((PDT)) The bluing process itself opens the pores in iron, which makes it prone to rusting. At least that holds true on my rifles. Occasional oiling is a must. Boiled linseed might provide long lasting protection. Parkerizing (a phosphate process) is like bluing only using a phosphoric acid dip. It resists rust better -- but does not come close to the beauty of a deep bluing job. Robert Mitchell ------- Re: Hot Bluing / Hot Blacking / Black Oxidizing Posted by: "Andrew Curl" methuselahx~xxntlworld.com Date: Fri Oct 4, 2013 2:40 pm ((PDT)) Classic "nitre blue" is achieved by immersing steel components in molten potassium nitrate (saltpetre) salts until the desired blue is obtained. The classic method is called slow rust bluing, where the component is polished and allowed to rust under controlled conditions, frequently in a closed container with an open bottle of nitric acid, with "carding" with degreased fine wire wool, and boiling in water, between sessions. This is repeated up to six times. The book to seek out is Angier's "Browning and Bluing of Firearms". As to preserving the finish, gun types traditionally use rangoon oil. It is not easy to find, but it can still be had, my last batch coming from Peter Dyson and Son Ltd in the UK. Andrew ------- Re: Hot Bluing / Hot Blacking / Black Oxidizing Posted by: "Robert Mitchell" rmm200x~xxyahoo.com Date: Fri Oct 4, 2013 2:49 pm ((PDT)) No one should be scared off by the complexity of classic bluing. There are many simpler techniques used by contemporary gunsmiths. The Brownell catalog page has a good selection to give you an idea: http://www.brownells.com/gunsmith-tools-supplies/metal-prep-color ing/metal-bluing/index.htm Robert Mitchell ------- Re: Hot Bluing / Hot Blacking / Black Oxidizing Posted by: "David Everett" deverett2003x~xxyahoo.co.uk Date: Fri Oct 4, 2013 3:00 pm ((PDT)) I just heat the steel to a dull red and dunk in old engine oil -- the oldest and dirtiest I can get hold of. Perhaps not quite as beautiful as Anna's offering, but plenty good enough for me and I don't have any rusting problems -- at least not on any of the parts (workshop tooling) I have done over the years. Dave The Emerald Isle ------- Re: Hot Bluing / Hot Blacking / Black Oxidizing Posted by: "Robert oren" towerup50x~xxyahoo.com Date: Fri Oct 4, 2013 3:35 pm ((PDT)) A method I am using with steel for a long time which is in my opinion quite satisfying is heating the polished and degreased object to about 500 degrees centigrade and then immersing it in cold black used car oil of 10.000 miles or more. It can be used for endless years forthcoming. The result after one or two succesive immersions is a deep dark blue and it is quite lasting. Be carefull with the oil when it eventually starts boiling or burning. Robert (Netherlands) ------- Re: Hot Bluing / Hot Blacking / Black Oxidizing Posted by: "David Littlewood" davidx~xxdlittlewood.co.uk Date: Fri Oct 4, 2013 4:05 pm ((PDT)) Hi Robert, I wipe my rifles (deeply blued) with a cloth soaked in Shell Ensis rust preventive oil after every use; after 25+ years I have not found any signs of rust on them. I use the same method on my machinery and accessories (bare metal or blackened), and have the same success. Linseed oil may be fine for cricket bats, but it does dry out to a horrible coating, and I wouldn't dream of using it on machinery. David ------- Re: Hot Bluing / Hot Blacking / Black Oxidizing Posted by: "Robert Mitchell" rmm200x~xxyahoo.com Date: Fri Oct 4, 2013 5:19 pm ((PDT)) I can't let this conversation go without mentioning bluing of screws. Most of us who turn metal have a stock of brass turnings. A tablespoon of degreased brass turnings is superb at bluing small screws. Embed the screws in the brass turnings in the spoon and heat over a small flame until you get a color that pleases you. It can range from brown through deep blue, depending on temperature. Robert Mitchell ------- Re: Hot Bluing / Hot Blacking / Black Oxidizing Posted by: "Ian Newman" ian_newx~xxyahoo.com Date: Sat Oct 5, 2013 12:09 pm ((PDT)) Hi, I can second the oil-blacking process suggestions -- quick, simple, no corrosive or aggressive chemicals to deal with. Clean the part: http://s219.photobucket.com/user/ian-new/media/Oil%20Blacking/1-clean part.jpg.html Set up the oil: http://s219.photobucket.com/user/ian-new/media/Oil%20Blacking/2-dirty oil.jpg.html Heat the part: http://i219.photobucket.com/albums/cc210/ian-new/Oil%20Blacking/3-hot part.jpg Quench in the oil:http://i219.photobucket.com/albums/cc210/ian-new/Oi l%20Blacking/4-plungingthepart.jpg The result: http://i219.photobucket.com/albums/cc210/ian-new/Oil%20Blacking/5-res ult.jpg What is wrong with that? All the best, Ian ------- Re: Hot Bluing / Hot Blacking / Black Oxidizing Posted by: "H.Wilkkes" harry.wilkesx~xxsky.com Date: Sat Oct 5, 2013 12:47 pm ((PDT)) Whilst on the subjest of blueing/blacking anyone have any suggestion for blacking brass? Cheers H ------- Re: Hot Bluing / Hot Blacking / Black Oxidizing Posted by: "Ian Newman" ian_newx~xxyahoo.com Date: Sat Oct 5, 2013 1:05 pm ((PDT)) Hi H, Try here for blackening brass: http://chestofbooks.com/reference/Henley-s-20th-Century-Formulas-Rec ipes-Processes-Vol1/Black-Color-on-Brass.html#.UlBvw8u9KSM Or here for a whole range of colour options: http://www.sciencecompany.com/-W160.aspx All the best, Ian ------- Re: Hot Bluing / Hot Blacking / Black Oxidizing Posted by: "Ken Strauss" ken.straussx~xxgmail.com Date: Sat Oct 5, 2013 4:32 pm ((PDT)) I haven't tried it but: http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/general-archive/blackening-br ass-96221/ (Uses Copper Carbonate) ------- Re: Hot Bluing / Now brass blacking Posted by: "Andrew Curl" methuselahx~xxntlworld.com Date: Sat Oct 5, 2013 1:24 pm ((PDT)) There are many ways to do this, and most involve chemicals you probably won't be able to get your hands on, or want around your house or workshop at all. I'm talking pure aqua fortis, neat ammonia, antimony chloride, white arsenic, that sort of stuff. I'm not going to type out the recipes, but I'll tell you where to find a fair few... "Machinery's Shop Receipts" (1927) pages 55 to 63. Lindsay Publications, ISBN 1-55918-037-4 Hope this helps. As for the folk who are writing about blacking using old engine oil, and asking "what's wrong with that?", nothing. As long as you don't want a blue finish. Andrew UK ------- Re: Hot Bluing / Hot Blacking / Black Oxidizing Posted by: "Cliff Coggin" clifford.cogginx~xxvirgin.net Date: Sun Oct 6, 2013 12:55 am ((PDT)) I don't mean to be picky but that looks to be blackened not blued. When I blue clock parts the colour is a brilliant deep blue; whereas blackened parts are just that -- black. Cliff Coggin Kent UK ------- Re: Hot Bluing / Now brass blacking Posted by: "Orologe" knibbx~xxastro5.com Date: Sun Oct 6, 2013 9:28 am ((PDT)) Most hobby shops in the USA carry a blackening solution for brass. Modelers use it to color their brass locomotives and other things. Ralph ------- Re: Hot Bluing / Hot Blacking / Black Oxidizing Posted by: "JOHN QUIRKE" jjquirkex~xxeircom.net Date: Sun Oct 6, 2013 3:20 am ((PDT)) Hi All. 2 years ago when restoring a veteran motorcycle I required to blacken somesmall parts for the engine (tappets, nuts etc) so a friend of mine popped them in a new blackening tank he had just acquired which he uses for blackening the outside of diesel injectors which he reconditions. It is a cold process and does not seem to use nasty chemicals as no special health and safety issues arise from its use in the workshop. The parts have retained their black finish to date. The chemicals and kit come from a German company but was not cheap, but is the way modern diesel specialists do it. John ------- Re: Hot Bluing / Hot Blacking / Black Oxidizing Posted by: gespliesstex~xxyahoo.de Date: Mon Oct 7, 2013 3:45 am ((PDT)) > Details please? Who makes the kit? Any idea what chemicals are used? This could be the kit from Germany: http://www.schlitt-surface.de/en/index.html ------- Re: Hot Bluing / Hot Blacking / Black Oxidizing Posted by: "timl" timlx~xxtimlund.plus.com Date: Mon Oct 7, 2013 4:49 am ((PDT)) There is also a product called Koolblack Tim Lund ------- Re: Hot Bluing / Hot Blacking / Black Oxidizing Posted by: "Roman Gargulak" romanx~xxcncwings.com Date: Mon Oct 7, 2013 6:28 am ((PDT)) Caswell carries different blackening solutions: http://www.caswellcanada.ca/shop/black-oxide/ Most of it just dip & rinse at room temperature; they also have a gel version of it as well as version for blackening stainless steel. They have their European distributor in the UK: http://www.caswelleurope.co.uk/ Roman ------- Re: Hot Bluing / Now brass blacking Posted by: "David Littlewood" davidx~xxdlittlewood.co.uk Date: Wed Oct 9, 2013 9:20 am ((PDT)) Orologe writes >Most hobby shops in the USA carry a blackening solution for brass. >Modelers use it to color their brass locomotives and other things... In the UK, Birchwood Casey and C&L both sell solutions for blackening brass. In fact, the BK steel black also works on brass. The very matt finish from all of these can flake off if you overdo it, and I have seen others recommend you dilute the solution to avoid this. Also, I was recently doing some corrosion tests on brass in warm water, and I found that, whilst several other types were only slightly affected (in particular, CZ108 sheet was only lightly tarnished) a rod of common CZ121c brass went quite black after a few weeks. You could just try boiling it in water! David Littlewood ------- Paint Question [shopbuilttools] Posted by: gdnicholsx~xxaol.com Date: Tue Jan 7, 2014 12:52 pm ((PST)) In the past, when I've tried to paint aluminum, sooner or later the paint just flakes off. This morning I was looking at my step ladder and bemoaning the paint drips on it -- when it occurred to me -- this paint is Navajo White "Latex" house paint from a 1975 paint job in Phoenix. The drips are adhered like iron for over 36 years. I wonder if I got a quart of good house paint and painted the whole ladder some color if the paint would adhere as well as this has. Has anybody tried this? I don't really know what "Latex" is but it is the term I tend to use for all paints that can be cleaned up with soap and water. I got the idea to paint things from this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L_jwOXKRhAU Dale ------- Re: Paint Question Posted by: "Ron Henderson" r.henderson26x~xxyahoo.com Date: Tue Jan 7, 2014 3:13 pm ((PST)) Hi, it always seems that is the way. You get a bit of paint on aluminum and it will be there until the cows get back! I am a painter, 45 years and there are some paints that will stay on better than others. A good grade of latex will last longer than a cheap grade and is also better than oil based paint. Really there is no hard fast rule for paint on aluminum, except in automotive. They do make primers for painting that type of metal. Those do a good job but are normally for a top coat of oil based paint. Some makers say they have paint for all metals, but no strong proof it is so. Area to be painted has to be clean of oil that you cannot see. I have painted mobile homes with latex and still looks good after 12 years, one coat! The best i can come up with, i have been lucky, so far! Good luck to you, thanks, ron h ------- Re: Paint Question Posted by: "Dan Brewer" danqualmanx~xxgmail.com Date: Tue Jan 7, 2014 4:49 pm ((PST)) I have painted a lot of aluminum. You want to clean the metal with Paint thinner and follow with vinegar. The acid in the vinegar will etch the metal leaving a tooth for the paint to stock to. If the project is for show, a high zinc primer followed by a good two part enamel. If a functional part, a good water based gloss or if you have the facilities a powder coat. Cleaning the metal is key to getting the paint to stick. ------- Re: Paint Question Posted by: "Carl Carlsen" candb2903x~xxgmail.com Date: Tue Jan 7, 2014 10:02 pm ((PST)) Do you have an airplane repair business nearby? A visit to anyone who frequently paints aluminum airplanes might produce some "tips" about their procedures. There used to be a product called "Alumnaprep" or something like that which came in a spray can which was for the express purpose of "etching" the aluminum before applying paint. I've kinda gotten away from airplanes over the past 25 years, so I'm not "up" on that stuff any more, but back in the day .... that was the way to go for anything aluminum. Aircraft Spruce & Specialty in southern CA used to carry this product. Google it for contact info. Carl ------- Re: Paint Question Posted by: n5kzwx~xxarrl.net Date: Wed Jan 8, 2014 8:19 am ((PST)) In the Navy, we has to re-paint the ship every couple of years. Everything above the main deck was aluminum. The process was: needle guns to remove the old paint, primer, and then paint (Navy gray). Some of the superstructure got a yellow primer, and some got a blue primer. I'm not sure what the difference was. The main (steel) hull had a red primer, but I'm pretty sure it wasn't red lead. This was in the 70's. Regards, Ed ------- Re: Paint Question Posted by: "Dan Brewer" danqualmanx~xxgmail.com Date: Wed Jan 8, 2014 8:46 am ((PST)) Yellow primer is zinc chromate primer. Red is iron oxide primer. Unknown what blue is. ------- Re: Paint Question Posted by: frozedog1x~xxyahoo.com Date: Sun May 18, 2014 10:40 pm ((PDT)) Wash the aluminum with TriSodiumPhosphate. Then Rinse with 50/50 Vinegar and water. Primer with light coat of Rustoleum Self Etching Primer. Follow up with two full coats of Rustoleum Metal Primer. Then 2-3 coats of Rusoleum Oil Based Acrylic Enamel with Acrylic Enamel Hardener. It'll wear like Iron and never come off. ------- Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2014 12:35:25 -0400 From: "Ray Sheley Jr." Subject: Re: [OldTools] Bluing > LV is now carrying browning and bluing solutions. http://www.leevalley.com/US/wood/page.aspx?p=71689&cat=51&ap=1 I've used both many times over the years. Heating the part moderately and doing at least 3 applications with cleaning and mildly buffing between coats helps, as does a thorough cleaning and polishing with oil for a final finish. Birchwood Casey is a good product for the casual user ------- Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2014 11:52:24 -0500 From: John Holladay Subject: Re: [OldTools] Bluing That is the same bluing solution that can be found in stores in my area such as Academy Sports and Bass Pro Shops. I tried it on one project. It is easy to use, but did not produce nearly as deep of a color as I was hoping for. Admittedly, I've never done this before and the flaws could easily be the result of user incompetence/ignorance. Doc ------- Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2014 13:01:03 -0400 From: "Ray Sheley Jr." Subject: Re: [OldTools] Bluing Doc, It does not easily give a deep blue, I've had better results in heating the part, or in some cases the solution itself. But truthfully a traditional Hot blue by someone who is good at it is always better and will be more wear resistant. But for casual and limited/small use these work well enough. ------- Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2014 10:00:13 -0700 From: scott grandstaff Subject: Re: [OldTools] Bluing Birchwood Casey is an old name in the gun trades. They do make several products. This one and super blue and cream blue. In my own experience I don't think there is any difference in brands or even products. When it comes to cold blue I believe they are all good 'ol liver of sulfur. So this product, or one of the other gun blues, or even instant patina solution from the glass shops seem to be identical in my experience. The glass shops sell it in 8 ounce bottles for not much more money, (around 10 dollars a bottle, shipping included) so it's a lot cheaper if you are going to keep it around and use it much. Technically neither cold gun blue or "black" patina solution from the glass shops is not really blue or black. In the metal trades they call it dark grey. But it's close enough. The trick is clean metal, apply it, let it sit for no more than 1 minute, and rinse in plenty of cold water. This sets the color. If you let it sit longer it actually lightens up. Wear gloves throughout so finger grease doesn't mess with you. It does take a few coats, or rather one coat perfectly clean, but you aren't going to get it one. So after the first coat, dry with a very clean cloth and rub down with ungreased steel wool or a nylon scratchy pad. Then go with another coat. Let it sit a little, then rinse. When the color is deep and even, dry well and oil generously. Here are some pliers the way you usually find them. http://users.snowcrest.net/kitty/sgrandstaff/images/oldtools/pliersa1.jpg Here are the two products I can't tell the difference between. http://users.snowcrest.net/kitty/sgrandstaff/images/oldtools/pliersa5.jpg This is what it does, except it's actually prettier than this. My camera just isn't getting it. It's a sturdy finish too. It's been several years since I did these, and many of these pliers see almost daily use, and still look good. An occasional rubdown with oil is all that's required. http://users.snowcrest.net/kitty/sgrandstaff/images/oldtools/pliersa4.jpg yours Scott Scott Grandstaff Box 409 Happy Camp, Ca 96039 http://www.snowcrest.net/kitty/sgrandstaff/ http://www.snowcrest.net/kitty/hpages/index.html ------- Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2014 12:06:47 -0600 From: Don Schwartz Subject: Re: [OldTools] Bluing I've used that product twice to enhance saw etches, and it did the job. Repeated applications certainly helped. FWIW Don ------- Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2014 03:19:45 +0000 From: David Nighswander Subject: Re: [OldTools] Bluing About 34 years ago Lydia gave me a black powder derringer kit. I had a great deal of fun building it and when I had it all fitted and polished I used Birchwood Casey's Plum Brown oxidizing solution. It has held up well on a gun that has been fired a few times, cleaned and then spent most of it's time in a drawer. Dave N. aka Old Sneelock ------- Re: Metal finishing [TAIGTOOLS] Posted by: "Will Schmit" anchornmx~xxyahoo.com Date: Thu Sep 18, 2014 6:23 pm ((PDT)) September 15, 2014 yrralguthriex~xxgmail.com wrote: > I'm always looking for ways to make metal look good. I have an LED flashlight. A Sky Ray King if you'd like to look on ebay for a picture. Does anyone know how the aluminum body is made and finished. Can't be extruded or molded. < It is machined (probably on a turret lathe), then anodized. The anodization uniformly penetrates the ribbing, without building mass on the curves. Often, metallic anodization looks cheap. It is cheap, that's why it is employed. Transparent metallic powder coat can greatly improve the aesthetics of the finish. Any variety of textures can be added to the powdercoat. This can be added as an adjunct after the anodization without building up on the edges, preserving the machined crispness and giving it a truer metalic luster. Anodizing is super thin, and if applied judiciously, can retain the reflectivity of the base metal (aluminum), which enhances the ability to "sell" the brassy or bronzy finish. I found a variety of Sky Ray King designs. None of them would be possible on a Taig lathe (even as a one time prototype), since the part requires a crossfeed to handle threading operations. Some knock-off versions have knurling, which also requires a crossfeed operation. It could be done on a taig mill with a 4th axis, but only with a lot of planning. While not my main business, I have made many custom movie prop light sabers, and am familiar with most of the high output LED modules and internal electronics. No slam against Sky Ray, but they would be rejected by my customers because the proportions are terrible. There are plenty of 2500-3500 lumen devices available that aren't as "squat", and fit the hand and the ruler pocket in a pair of carpenter pants much better. The reason for this is the 18650 batteries. Bundling 4 side-by-side makes a terribly short tool. IMHO, the best way to create a convincing finish on a flashlight is to machine it from copper, not aluminum. It machines better (especially free machining alloys with added lead), looks better, ages better and has better heat rejection properties. Patina it with liver of sulfur, then tumble it in ballcones for an hour. It will look and work better, but, of course, that isn't the goal of a Chinese flashlight. ------- Re: Metal finishing Posted by: "Larry Guthrie" yrralguthriex~xxgmail.com Date: Thu Sep 18, 2014 7:33 pm ((PDT)) I've received some very good answers about the making of the flashlight. And learned from them. I had not thought of a multiaxis lathe. The videos of them in action make the operation obvious. It could not have been made on a simple machine or turret lathe. There are those axial ribs with the cutouts in them. Also the fins are not concentric with the body all the way around, they sort of flare out. So likely a 5 axis lathe. The 5th axis being used to route out the cutout beneath the axial ribs. I disagree about anadiozing being used because it is cheap. It adds color to the bare metal and is much harder than the base aluminum. Sometimes making a non-conductive coating. It vastly improves the look of the base metal and gives a surface that pretty much does not stain and is easy to clean. Anodizing is cheap and can be used for affordable products. The movie people want "a look" and don't really care about money. But they don't order many flashlights. I don't have any pants with a ruler pocket and doubt many who buy the flashlight do. I was a little concerned about the shape of the flashlight, but after using it for a while it turns out to have several advantages. It sets on its tail easily and is relatively hard to knock over. Not sure why being squat is "terrible". Four cells in series makes for a lot of current. No more of course than a four cell end to end flashlight, but that would be over 16" long. It wouldn't fit well in a ruler pocket either as it would tend to tip out. Look pretty funny with six inches in the pocket and 10 inches sticking out. Squat also puts the on/off switch in a more logical position than on the tail. It can be used while holding the flashlight in one hand. Also fits my hand better than a thinner flashlight. Your customer might indeed reject the squat looking Sky Ray design, but suspect they are concerned only with looks and are not concerned with whether it works well or at all. I also feel quite sure they would reject your design made from copper if cost were any consideration. Can't really understand why one would make a flashlight using copper and your method. A car made from titanium would be lighter and tougher than one made from steel and aluminum, and have great fuel mileage. Better ?. But I think we can see why it is not done. I don't mean any of this as critism of you or your post. I very much appreciate good ideas and information, but I do reserve the right to disagree with opinion. And your opinion in this case is certainly valid in your area of use. Movie people might use a copper flashlight and would certainly want a more traditional shape. But most likely they would just make a aluminum flashlight look like whatever they wanted. Wonder how much a 3" square billet of copper 8 inches long would cost? Again, I read very critically and am prone to say what I think. But I mean nothing about the person, just what they write. ------- Re: Metal finishing Posted by: "Larry Guthrie" yrralguthriex~xxgmail.com Date: Thu Sep 18, 2014 11:01 pm ((PDT)) "IMHO, the best way to create a convincing finish on a flashlight is to machine it from copper, not aluminum. It machines better (especially free machining alloys with added lead), looks better, ages better and has better heat rejection properties. Patina it with liver of sulfur, then tumble it in ballcones for an hour. It will look and work better, but, of course, that isn't the goal of a Chinese flashlight." I've read this about 10 times, and I simply don't understand what it is saying. What is "a convincing finish"? Copper looks better than aluminum in what way? If so then why patina it? Ages better? It turns green, also turns hands green. Maybe for a roof if you want a sploted green roof. Better heat rejection properties. No clue what that means. Copper will absorb the heat from the led better than aluminum, but it also holds the heat longer than aluminum, so the led would stay cool, but the flashlight body would get hotter. And then "it will look and work better". Look is in the eye of the beholder so I will give that up. How does it work better? That copper patina I suspect is somewhat soft and likely to rub off. Aluminum anodizing is a very hard, very durable finish. It is a chemical oxidizing process. No powder. It can both fill and build up. To about .003 inches. Those ballcones (stainless steel bb's) are going to play he&* getting into the grooves on those flashlights and being somewhat hard are likely to round off sharp edges and ruin the nice machine work. Exactly the opposite of what I was asking how to do. Last I fail to understand the reason to belittle the Chinese flashlight makers, nor Sky Ray, there is no US manufacturer of flashlights with better machining and or finish. That includes Maglight. Although those clicky switches in the tail of most of them is a piece of junk. ------- Re: Metal finishing Posted by: "Will Schmit" anchornmx~xxyahoo.com Date: Fri Sep 19, 2014 4:35 am ((PDT)) I submit that using white metal (aluminum) and then anodizing it to be yellow isn't as good an idea as using yellow metal (copper/brass) in the first place, but it is cheaper. The ribs on that flashlight are there to disperse heat. Copper is quite good at that. I will admit that almost everything about modern "tactical" flashlights is to look cool. That is why people buy them. Liver of sulfur is black. Handling (or an hour in the ballcones) would relieve the surface. Balcones would not penetrate the ribs. The black patina in the ribs would also shed more heat, but it is only a few calories. Regarding hardness, the reason that aluminum is anodized is because it is soft -- why use it? 360 brass - is B78 Rockwell hardness (it is the most machineable of the copper alloys. Where are you going to find an anodization even half that hard? Also, balcones "work harden" the surface of the copper. Nothing in the rules says that you have to start with a billet, but if made of aluminum, that is a common practice. Aluminum is cheap, and the swarf can be recycled into tomorrow's billets. This is also true of copper. Trust me, billet is a buzz-word -- there is no reason to not make the billet as a tube, and save all the machining. The holes under the rib are made by turning the A axis 90 degrees, offsetting the Y axis and then milling the slit in the X. 4 turns using the same milling routine, then offset the Y the opposite direction for the 4 opposite sides - bring the Y back to its home. That would be the orientation while milling the seat and hole for the switch. Many would say that a lathe would have the axis' assigned as X and Z, (and they would be right) but my example would consider the rotational axis as A (using 4 axis milling terminology). ------- NOTE TO FILE: As sometimes happens, smart folks but with different points of view will sometimes disagree and the result can be a very long conversation as in the above. See that group's archives if you wish to read further in this particular discussion, which has wandered far away from the topic of finishing. ------- Chrome paint [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: "Gregg Eshelman" g_alan_ex~xxYAHOO.COM Date: Mon Oct 13, 2014 9:33 pm ((PDT)) On 10/13/2014 5:04 PM, Lance Eggleston gbofx~xxverizon.net > [atlas_craftsman] wrote: >> Craft stores sell a very silver paint which has a brilliant shine. >> I’ll look for my can to get the brand. On 10/13/2014 3:15 PM, Scott Henion shenionx~xxshdesigns.org [atlas_craftsman] wrote: > I used paint from an auto parts store called "bumper Chrome". Did ok; > don't expect anything like a chrome gloss. ;) Look for Spaz Stix Ultimate Mirror Chrome and the clear coat that goes with it. When applied over a glass smooth surface, the result is a coating as shiny as a mirror. You can spray this paint on the back side of a sheet of glass or smooth clear plastic and make a mirror. Spaz Stix also has black and white backer paint to use for protecting the chrome when used on the back side or inside of things. The paint is intended for painting Lexan radio control car bodies and aircraft parts. For front surface use, you can spray on a coat of the backer paint to smooth it out. Then after it's dry, spray on the chrome then after that is dry spray on the clear. The transparent color paints Spaz Stix has are NOT compatible with their chrome. They'll dissolve each other, even with a barrier coat of the clear paint over the chrome. That can be used for effects like bronze by spraying Candy Rootbeer over the chrome. Duplicolor Metalcast transparent colors can be used with the chrome, if you spray many light coats. I haven't tried Krylon X-Metals colors with it. ------------------------------------------------------------------ This is just one of some 80 files about machining and metalworking and useful workshop subjects that can be read at: http://www.janellestudio.com/metal/index.html ------------------------------------------------------------------