This is just one of some 80 files about machining and metalworking and useful workshop subjects that can be read at: http://www.janellestudio.com/metal/index.html ------------------------------------------------------------------ This is one of two files on this site giving many practical tips for putting a fine finish onto metal. "Finish for Tools" mainly discusses surface preparation and finishes appropriate for our machines or tools. "Finish and Polish" is aimed at bringing metal projects or parts to a smooth or otherwise appropriate surface texture, and discusses some of the finishes that might be applied -- for any combination of durability or protection or appearance. It is suggested that you also look through the "Cleaning Tips" file to obtain advice on cleaning items preparatory to finishing. For some tips about marking metal including etching (for logos or maker identification or dial numbers or ...), see the file here called "Layout Marking or Printing". The "Lubricants General" file will provide ideas on products that will make your tools or projects work more efficiently, minimize wear, and protect them from the elements. If you got to this file directly from my HOME PAGE, return there by using your browser's back button. BUT if you came to this file as the result of a web search engine, see many additional files on my home page Machining and Metalworking at Home http://www.janellestudio.com/metal/index.html SAFETY WARNING BEWARE: DO NOT ASSUME that any subject matter or procedure or process is safe or correct or appropriate just because it was mentioned in a news/user group or was included in these files or on this site or on any other web site or was published in a magazine or book or video. Working with metals and machinery and chemicals and electrical equipment is inherently dangerous. Wear safety devices and clothing as appropriate. Remove watches, rings, and jewellery -- and secure or remove loose clothing -- before operating any machine. Read, understand and follow the latest operating procedures and safety instructions provided by the manufacturer of your machine or tool or product. If you do not have those most recent official instructions, acquire a copy through the manufacturer before operating or using their product. Where the company no longer exists, use the appropriate news or user group to locate an official copy. Be careful -- original instructions may not meet current safety standards. Updated safety information and operating instructions may also be available through a local club, a local professional in the trade, a local business, or an appropriate government agency. In every case, use your common sense before beginning or taking the next step; and do not proceed if you have any questions or doubts about any procedure, or the safety of any procedure. Follow all laws and codes, and employ certified or licenced professionals as required by those laws or codes. Hazardous tasks beyond your competence or expertise should also be contracted to professionals. Let's be really careful out there. (c) Copyright 2003 - 2016 Machining and Metalworking at Home The form of the collected work in this text file (including editing, additions, and notes) is copyrighted and this file is not to be reproduced by any means, including electronic, without written permission except for strictly personal use. ============================================================================ Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2001 13:53:56 -0800 From: Roger Van Maren Subject: Re: Paint Match I just stripped down the head stock of my 12" Craftsman this morning**. This lathe has been re-painted 3 times, but under/inside the head stock casting has what appears to be the original paint. This is a very dark grey with a blue tint to it. In my opinion Rust-o-leum is probably the worst quality spray paint out there. It doesn't flow out well. It runs and sags easily, takes forever to cure and isn't all that durable. I use an engine enamel that's sold by NAPA Auto Parts stores. The brand is Martin-Senour. I flows and builds well, seems more durable and just plain looks nicer than most spray paints. The can even sprays in a fan pattern like a real spray gun. (no connection with NAPA... yadda yadda yadda) For my lathe I picked the #7883 grey universal engine enamel. It didn't have the slight blue tint that the original paint showed but was about the right shade of grey. This stuff is a bit more expensive at almost $6 a can but it's worth it. I've got a couple of spray guns that I use for cars and finishing furniture but the convenience of a can and the result I can get with this brand keeps the spray rigs in the cabinet. I strip everything to bare metal and put on 2 coats of paint. No primer necessary. After drying for a few hours everything that fits gets baked in the oven at 200 degrees for 2 hours. This gives a really hard durable finish. I've used this technique on many engines and machine tools with great success. Roger Van Maren ------- Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 13:33:26 -0500 From: "Randy" Subject: Re: Lathe rebuild [SAND BLASTING BEFORE PAINTING - NOTE: ANY SB NEEDS COMPRESSOR 5HP &20GAL MINIMUM] For an inexpensive unit for the home look at the Porta-Power Sandblaster from Wholesale Tool Page 383 of the 2001 catalog. it sells for $19.50. This and a bag of silica sand from you local lumber yard or hardware store and a sot in the yard were it wont hurt to get some sand and your in business. I have a blasting cabinet from when I ran my cycle shop and a Snap-On roll around unit but I don't think either one is any better than the one from Wholesale Tool. Randy ------- Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2001 06:25:03 -0500 From: "Randy" Subject: Re: Lathe rebuild Yep they make even my 5hp 60 gal. work hard but for small jobs even the small compressors will get you by, after all its not production work just small pieces every once in awhile. My biggest problem is to keep the sand dry so it will flow well and not make the compressor work so hard trying to siphon the sand through the nozzle. Also on smaller compressors use the smallest possible nozzle it really make a difference on the amount of air required. I think we are getting way off topic at least I haven't seen any Atlas sand blasters yet.:-) Randy ------- Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2001 15:09:41 -0700 (PDT) From: Jeff Swann Subject: Re: Craftsman 109 series...[ACTUALLY Re: Lathe rebuild] 1 comment on air compressor/receivers sizing On the compressed air tank size...It does'nt matter what size the receiver (tank) is,once the pressure in the recv. drops to the compressor cut-in setting it's the compressors cfm output vs. the cfm usage at the recv. outlet that comes into play. If the usage is than the comp. output, the comp. will be able to run the tool,sand blaster,etc. AND refill the recv. to the cut-out setting.If usage is (more)the comp. will constantly run just to supply air at all, and depending on the comp. design itself (single stage, 2 stage, rotary screw,reciprocating, etc.) it may eventually "run out" of any "real" pressure at all. Where I work, we have 2) Joy /400 HP/ 2 stage/ recip. comp.'s and several 1000 gal. receivers. If we are running 4 Forging press lines at the same time both comp.'s will be at 100% output (4000 cfm) and still the receiver pressures will hover down in the 75 psi range,this shows that the comp. output is really running the show-and the receivers at this point are just excess baggage on the late-nite freight. Regards, Jeff ------- Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 03:35:06 -0000 From: bwright5x~xxneo.rr.com Subject: PAINT MACHINE PAINT.TRY IRON/BLOCK CAST #7250 FROM YOUR NEIGHBORHOOD NAPA AUTO PARTS STORE. LOOKS GOOD. BOB ------- Date: Sat, 6 Apr 2002 07:12:21 -0800 (PST) From: Thomas Kent Subject: Re: Question about fillers [ON CASTINGS BEFORE PAINTING] In doing metal work for many years I find the Devcon products do the best job for filling and repair of castings. Most bearing, or industrial supply houses should be able to supply you with this product. If it is just going to painted over and just cosmetic, bondo is cheap and will work real well. Tommy Kent ------- Date: Sat, 6 Apr 2002 14:58:32 -0800 From: "Bob May" Subject: Re: Re: Question about fillers The bondo is applied just like it's done for automobile stuff. Put some on and sand down and then do it again until the surface is looking good. Then paint. Bob May http://nav.to/bobmay NEW! http://bobmay.astronomy.net ------- Date: Mon, 08 Apr 2002 09:37:56 -0000 From: "markzemanek" Subject: Re: Question about fillers Jan suggested to take a look at: http://homepages.force9.net/tonygriffiths/page14.html Below is the core of the paragraph dealing with the finish on the Raglan lathes. I'm visualizing the tough coat created by the chemical melting process of the thinners. I "think" I've seen this type of finish before...kinda' looks like it was baked on, but then not quite...I'm sure this finish was first class, as the author states. >> The rough castings were prepared with a thick filler paint made by a company called Trimite. The first coat was literally trowelled on, the second coat was painted on and, as it became skin dry, was repainted with cellulose thinners. This had the effect of 'melting' the top coat and allowed it to flow to a smother finish. . This was given overnight to dry and then rubbed down with wet and dry paper. Two more coats were then applied by spraying with a light sanding between coats. The finish consisted of one base coat and two top coats of machine paint. All the products used were made by Trimite and were all cellulose based. Trimite also used to supply Myfords with paint and I believe they still do. The finish on these machines was first class and far exceeded anything that was available on contemporary machines at that time. << ------- Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2002 19:21:56 -0000 From: "outlawmws" Subject: Re: paint > >jerdal wrote > > > > I have restored dozens of shop tools and had excellent luck > > > > with spray cans of Rustolium (spelling may be wrong.) It is > > > > available inmachine gray and many other colors. I normally glass > > > > bead then apply a coat of red oxide primer and a coat of the gray. > > > Any special type of Rustoleum? Any special I have used it, and found > > > that it stayed somewhat soft for a long time compared to other > > > paints. Something to do with the anti-rust oils in it? > >You can bake these enamels with a floodlight and they will harden up > >much quicker. Jon --- In atlas_craftsmanx~xxy..., Ronald Thibault wrote: > After allowing the paint to dry somewhat, I have had very good > results baking, those parts that will fit, in the oven at 140 degrees > or so, for a few hours. (I'm single, others may have to convince their > wife to allow them to do this). Ron Thibault Warrenville, SC USA > Builder Miinie #2 Captain R/C Combat Ship USS Arizona > http://pages.prodigy.net/thibaultr/ Two comments on baking. I also bake parts, but BEFORE painting, not after. What this does is take moisture out of the pores of the metal, espesially castings. I am particular about this especially with automotive parts that will see elevated teperatures as any subsurface agents will literally boil out, taking the paint off with it. I realize most tools will not seee those temps but it does make for much better adhesion of the paint. Om larger parts I will even carfully use a torch or bernzomatic. You can see the moisture come to the surface and evaporate. Try in on a cast iron pan freshly washed and towel dried. Second comment is a caution. It is not a good idea to cure paint in an oven thas will be used for food. Some of the fumes are going to be deposited in the oven and from there could get into your dinner! If you do this often, get a castoff oven from someones kitchen remodel and use that. Just don't warm your dinner in it! This is to my mind a far larger worry than with melting and casting lead, with proper safegards and practices, that has been discussed in the past week or so. My 2cents. -Outlaw ------- Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2002 15:35:43 -0400 From: cw4dtu Subject: Re: Re: paint Please be careful baking Rust-o-leum in an oven. Residual petroleum distillates will settle on your food and hurt you. If you are going to do this, use an old oven you plan to junk or not cook food in! ------- Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2002 12:36:06 -0700 From: "GuyW" Subject: Re: Re: paint Enamel paint can be "baked" in a cardboard box lined with aluminum foil, and powered by a 100W light bulb. -Guy- ------- Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2002 15:03:23 -0500 From: jmark.vanscoterx~xxamd.com Subject: RE: Re: Original Color of My Lathe From: GuyW [mailto:guyiiix~xxcox.net] >>powder coating is melted at about 450 degrees F, IIRC. Eastwood >>company sells a home kit...and it's backed, even in your kitchen oven. >>I wouldn't trust my lathe to any body with a sandblaster....-Guy- > Fred, You and your brother are right, the powder is applied by anelecro-magnetic process (I think that's what "they" call it) and then the part are baked at very high temps. This is why fillers can't be used if powder coating, they would melt off. Dings and dents have to be worked out by hand and/or brazed over,ground and sanded or by using lead. It could be quite the process if your machine is "well seasoned." The powder coaters will do it all for you, i.e., bead blasting and powder coating not the metalwork. It's also a bit pricey but the finish is real nice. I'm seriously thinking about, we'll see when my lathe makes it home...Mo < More about powder coating. . . There are more than one type of powders, toughest is epoxy. The idea behind powder coating is that there is no significant VOC output so it is easier to deal with. It is applied with an electro-static process and will fill many surface imperfection. However, you would need to grind your castings pretty smooth before powder coating to get a decent finish. You can apply a "primer" coating that you then sand and then a final coat, but few ever do. It is a very good finish, but it is not magic. Mark V.S. in Austin, TX ------- Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2002 17:08:02 -0400 From: Brian Green Subject: Re: Re: paint There are some very good, i.e. hard, paints used by the flying folks to paint their flying machines. My neighbor used an HVLP polymer paint on his Pitts and it is hard enough to hit with a hammer without marking. Try Aircraft Spruce at aircraftspruce.com Brian ------- Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 15:36:11 -0000 From: "grassodrafting" Subject: machinery paint [ATLAS GROUP] I have owned and used my clausing vertical mill for 14 years. When I first set the machine up, I painted it with Ben Moore porch and deck enamel (gray). This paint is nearly indestructable. It is worn only from severe abrasion from wrenches. Cutting oils and lubes don't affect it. ------- Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 03:59:39 -0000 From: "mikehenryil" Subject: Re: machinery paint [ATLAS GROUP] FWIW, I painted my 8520 chip pan with Benjamin MooreUrethane Alkyd Gloss Enamel, Base 4, M22 4A. A local paint store custom blended it to a near perfect match for the original paint and the color codes were: RO-1 TG-20 BK-6x2 OY-3x27 Mike, near Chicago ------- Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 18:21:31 -0000 From: "markzemanek" Subject: Re: Before and After Jeff: I recently finished reconditioning my lathe, stripping off the old paint with a gel type paint remover. I recommend this type over the liquid, since it stays where you place it. Be sure to get a pair of chemical resistant gloves, and use eye protection. Steel wool for cleaning the rust from the ways can be found near the paint stripper in the store, and comes in different grades. The finest I've seen is 0000....I used a 000 on my lathe. If you're going to use a wire brush for any part of cleaning, get one with brass bristles; they're much softer than steel. I only used a brush to remove built up gunk from nooks and crannies that I couldn't push the wool into, and even then I was gentle. Splurge on the paint, and buy a good oil based product. I bought a quart (smallest amount they'd sell) of Benjamin Moore's Impervo--it's an alkyd high gloss enamel. It cost me around $14.00 U.S. I went one step further and baked on my paint, to make for a tougher finish, as suggested by other members of this group. I did this by making a wood box that surrounded the lathe, and lined it with aluminum foil. Then I wired in a 200 watt light bulb, and drilled a peep hole into the side of the box, at the level of the ways, so I could see the oven thermometer I place on them. I brought the temperature up around 225 degrees F., and let it cook for a few hours. The finish came out beautifully! You can indeed make your lathe look just as good as the before pictures...it's just a matter of time. Just remember...what's a few weeks when you'll have a lifetime of lathe use when done? For more information, search for the thread "New and blue" in the [ATLAS GROUP] message archives. Best of luck, Mark ------- Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 17:51:59 -0400 From: Stan Stocker Subject: Re: Before and After Hi Jeff; Kerosene is a fairly safe and effective solvent for cleaning, mineral spirits also fit the bill. Any really nasty varnished oil areas that don't respond will come clean with either carburetor (or brake) cleaner, or paint stripper. Rather than trying to grind/sand/brush paint off, there are two nice easy ways to do the job: 1) Parts that fit can go in a hot TSP solution - most paints come off in sheets other than the blue paint used on Emglo compressers) 2) Aircraft paint stripper, which is sold at most auto parts stores in the paint section. Nasty outdoor use stuff, protect your eyes and skin, but it really strips well. The spray cans, although more expensive, seem to cover more area and work better than the liquid you brush on. Weird, not the experience I've had with furniture strippers, but how it seems to work out. A wire wheel isn't too harsh in most applications, I've used them entensively on one old SB lathe from the 20's to smooth the old asphaultum based filler that is untouched by just about all chemicals once the paint was off, to just a tad on a '39 SB9 that was is darn near new condition mechanically, but ugly as a mud fence cosmetically. Everyone seems to have a favorite paint - here's the ones I've used: Rustoleum - too soft Rustoleum Professional - Chips (both brush and spray can versions) and stains (spray can versions) far too easily. I won't be using these again. Rustoleum Hard Hat - better than the other offerings from Rustoleum, but still not as good a paint for tools as some other brands. Krylon Rust Tough - Only the yellow inner bed on the old SB, seems really nice so far, no chips, no stains. Duron modified urethane enamel - on my neighbors '29 SB15. This seems to be a great paint. Hard, shiny, chip resistant, a bit tougher to brush than some other brands, you have to really keep control of your wet edge and not dawdle around getting this stuff on, but with care it flows out very nicely. Both the Duron and Davis primers work well with this paint. This is the paint that's going on the Atlas I'm beginning a restoration on, and on the surface grinder I'm rebuilding. Blue Ridge industrial coatings machinery paint - really nice, but sort of hard to find. Flows well, holds up even on drawer edges under the mill. If I could find it readily I'd use this, but the local Ace is the only place I've ever seen it, and they don't tint it or stock several cans of any one color, so I only use it for small items that I know I can paint without risking a lot number change halfway through the job. I know one dealer who swears by Varathane alkyd enamel, but I haven't used it or seen any of his stuff after a year or two of hard use. Hope this is of some use, Stan ------- NOTE TO FILE: Following is a link to a website detailing one person's terrible health experience with brake cleaner. After reading this, I'm not going to use brake cleaner or any other product containing tetrachloroethylene, also called tetrachloroethene, ever again. There are safer products, but in truth there are very few totally safe products. Always read the product label before use, and if in any doubt about the instructions or safety warnings, look up the ingredients on the internet; you can also ask any manufacturer for the product's MSDS -- Material Safety Data Sheet -- which they must provide. http://www.brewracingframes.com/id75.htm ------- Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 13:05:25 -0800 (PST) From: Art Volz Subject: Logan Shaper Color(s) Marty-- I'm sharing this Email with the Metal Shapers group in trying to answer your question: "What color is/was my Logan shaper?" I've gone back into the archives of Scott's other Yahoo group--"lathe-list"--to look for some answers. Scott's answers on colors are specifically Logan lathe colors, but it would be logical to assume that all of Logan branded machine tools, both lathes and shapers, were most likely painted the same color if they were manufactured at the same time. Scott said that Logan lathes produced up into the early '60's were a darkish navy blue-gray and recommended that Graingers' ( http://www.graingers.com ) Dem-Kote blue-gray 5FX11 was a very close match to the original Logan color. (See: http://www.groups.yahoo.com/group/lathe-list/message/55 and http://www.groups.yahoo.com/group/lathe-list/message/2867 The 5FX11 color has been, however, discontinued by Graingers (hazardous) and they recommend the replacement 6MT50 Dem-Kote blue-gray x~xx $2.66 for a 12-oz spray can. (They have also discontinued the 1D469 blue-gray.) I have not seen this 6MT50 color. I have a Logan steady rest and a Logan follower rest for my Logan/Monkey Ward c. 1941 Model 700 10 x 24. They are both dark navy blue gray, and not much gray. If you wish, Marty, I can send you a paint chip from these rests for computerized electronic analysis. My Monkey-Ward branded Logan lathe, however, sports a much lighter meium gray with a tinge of blue and it is its original paint. The gray paint that was used by Logan starting in the mid-fifties is a medium toned gray, offered by many different manufacturers and all would be "right". Joe W's Logan, made in the last 2 years of Logan branded shapers, is a light to medium gray. It appears, from my observation, to be the original factory paint and looks very similar to the later Logan designed shaper when it became the Brodhead-Garrett J-Line. Differences in camera capability and lighting may make the color inexact, however, a feeling for the "lightness" of the gray used can be seen. (I have placed a PIC of the J-Line door in the "Brodhead-Garrett J-Line" album at "photos"; for Marty I have attached a PIC which will be "stripped" from this Email sent to this group.) For a further discussion of this topic, see: http://www.metalworking.com/dropbox/_1998_retired_files/logan2.txt. A paint that I like--a light bluish silver gray--is offered by Rust-oleum in their "hammered" finish which is a nice finish for CI out-of-the-mould. They list this color as their "7212 Light Blue". About a year ago Lowe's, Home Depot, and Sears were clearing this paint off of their shelves: I picked up 2 cases of it, here and there, for about one buck a can. Another nice thing about this particular paint is that it can be applied directly over rust after, of course, wire brushing the surface vigourouslyto to remove the loose stuff. Krylon offers a hammered type paint in a darkish navy blue--it is (was?) carried by K-mart, if you still have one of their stores in your area. Hope this helps, Marty. Your nameplate, with the older styled lettering, indicates that your shaper was likely (my "guesstimate") painted the darkish blue gray color. However, its your shaper and a lighter color is probably more "fashionable" and "politically correct" today: a Rust-oleum "hammered" gold would be especially "spiffy"--I'm going to use that color when (if I ever do) re-paint my newly acquired Lewis horizontal mill, but then...maybe "Popsicle" or "Gothic Purple" would be "prettier" for me. Art (Houston) ------- Date: Tue, 05 Nov 2002 12:15:44 -0500 From: Stan Stocker Subject: Re: Paint for machine tools? [HE HAS A SIMILAR BUT NOT IDENTICAL RESPONSE ABOVE ON 14 JUNE 2002 -- READ THIS ONE ALSO] Hi Steve; I've used quite a few of the paints, my current favorite is Durons' modified urethane enamel. For darker colors use the red oxide primer, for lighter colors the white primer works well, although it is a fairly thin paint. My neighbor did his SB15 with this paint, the finish looks new after a year of fairly frequent use. I'm doing the Atlas 12 with this paint, the job isn't finished but the paint is on the castings and they look good, with a nice gloss appearance. No chips anywhere after plenty of moving things around. The local Duron store used this paint for their shelves, after 5+ years of cans being slid on and off and banged about the shelves still look good. All of the Rustoleum products are either too soft, or stain and chip prone. I used their "professional" paint on my SB13 applied by brush, and the "professional" in spray cans on my SB9. Both looked great, but the 9 has oil stains in the paint and several chips from minor bumps, the 13 has chips, but no stains (so far.) Needless to say I'm less than amused! I think the rustoleum formula changed somewhere along the line, my old 10 inch rotary table and one of my old mill vices were painted with the pro spray maybe 6 years ago, and they still look great. Central Tractors' Farm Implement paint takes an eternity to dry, although the final result is holding up quite well on an older Emglo compressor my neighbor and I rebuilt. The darn paint was still a tad soft four weeks after painting, wish you could still get lead based paints for industrial uses. Blue Ridge Paints' industrial machine paint is very good, although I think this maker is more regional than national. I've used their machine grey on a few things, it is a delight to work with and gives an excellent tough finish. It even holds up on my mill stand drawer edges with very few chips, and those chips are in places where the dings crunched the underlying wood drawer front. It did not chip off past the area of damage, so the paint adheres very well. The local Ace affiliated hardware store in town carries this paint, perhaps a local Ace Hardware could order it if you wanted to use this. Whatever you do, DONT use a rusty metal primer, they stay soft. Krylon Rust Tough seems very good, it dries to a hard shine and seems quite chip and stain resistant. I used their yellow on the interior of the SB13 bed, it's holding up very nicely. Whatever paint you use, use a high quality brush. I've been very happy with the brushes from Wooster. Each brush is $10 to $20, but with careful cleaning and storage will last a long time. A good brush flows out a far better paint film than a utility grade brush. If you would like a bit more detail on prep and priming please drop a line, if you've done this sort of stuff before there's no need to ramble on :-) Cheers, Stan ------- Date: Tue, 05 Nov 2002 17:30:06 -0000 From: "yrotc78u212" Subject: Re: Paint for machine tools? newer machine tools come with colors that are more friendly to the eyes nowadays,shades of white,yellow etc. just do me a favor and dont paint it machine shop slash battle ship gray.it makes you feel like your working in a dungeon.trust me.i`ve been there.if your using a synthetic cutting fluid the paint will eventually come off,oil base cutting oil will usually not effect enamel or epoxy paint.buy the way a brighter color lets you see where the old oil and scuzz dry forcing you to wipe down the machine down more often and oil it.dirt and chips kill machines. mark ------- Date: Tue, 5 Nov 2002 09:58:51 -0800 From: "Bob May" Subject: Re: Paint for machine tools? I've found that paints that take a long time to dry usually need to be put in an oven and heat cured. Some paints, like the exhaust manifold paints for cars, need to have a good 300F or higher just to finally cure correctly into the right finish. The next time you use some of that tractor paint, you may want to throw the part into an oven and bake it for an hour or two at 300F and see what happens to it. Bob May http://nav.to/bobmay NEW! http://bobmay.astronomy.net ------- Date: Tue, 05 Nov 2002 14:17:12 -0500 From: Stan Stocker Subject: Re: Paint for machine tools? Hi Bob: I usually bake the paint on anything that will fit in the oven. The implement paint didn't fully harden even after we baked it. We left it under heat lamps for several hours before we baked. The heat lamps are usually sufficient to cure/dry most paints at least to the "dry enough to handle" point in a few hours. Maybe there is some slow cross linking or something else going on in addition to solvent evaporation with this paint. I didn't expect this sort of behavior from a single part paint, you see it more often with stuff like POR15 when it's very dry, such as in the dead of winter in a forced air heated basement. Even after over a year the paint still feels soft. You can't press a thumbnail into it, it just doesn't give the sharp click of a hard film when you tap it with the nail of your index finger. Exhaust and (some) grill paints do require the high heat to trigger the cure correctly, no doubt about that! Cheers, Stan ------- Date: Tue, 5 Nov 2002 21:35:05 -0600 From: "jerdal" Subject: Re: Paint for machine tools? >I usually bake the paint on anything that will fit in the oven. The >implement paint didn't fully harden even after we baked it. One issue with many paints is "flash time" as I have heard it called. You have to let the paint dry for a time WITHOUT any acceleration from heat. If you don't, you tend to get a hard cured film over partly cured paint. Then the underlying paint takes forever to cure, as it cannot get rid of the last solvents. Even if it crosslinks, it is still softened by the solvents. You need to let all the initial solvents leave (flash off) before heating, etc. Jerry ------- Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2002 07:34:41 -0500 From: Chabannes Rene N Contr ASC/YCD Subject: RE: Paint for machine tools? Paint issues are tough. Just a couple of comments. I'd be careful what I baked as the resulting fumes may not be compatible with your health. Not all top coats are compatible with all primers. This is more than an issue of thinners. I've seen some epoxy coatings that felt a little soft to the fingernail that were very tough and stain resistant. Temperature, humidity, and surface condition are also big players. You probably don't want to leave anything primed very long without painting as the opportunity for contamination and corrosion goes up. If you have access to an industrial paint outlet that stocks small quantities, it would be good to get a "system" that works together. Many of the commercial manufacturers make industrial coatings (Sherwin Williams and Deft come to mind). You probably won't find this stuff in Lowes or home depot. If you are like me, you end up using what you can get. Rene N. Chabannes (Titan) ASC/YC - Productions Operations C-17 SPO, WPAFB, OH 937-255-1042 (DSN 785-1042) ------- Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2002 10:12:49 -0500 From: tttt ccccc Subject: Re: Paint for machine tools? 4-in-1 Epoxy Paint made by: United States Refining Co. Dayton, Ohio I get my cans at a small, independent, "real" hardware store. Been using this stuff for years. Peace Be With Thee, Tim K3HX ------- Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2002 10:14:14 -0800 From: "Bob May" Subject: Re: Paint for machine tools? Mention of epoxy paint reminds me that epoxy is a temperature dependent chemical process. You can slow down the curing of epoxy by doing it in a cold enviroment and then heating it to about 150F or so to cure it fast. I might also note that the flow rate also goes up with the temperature. I've made JBWeld go off in 15 minutes by heating! I will note that there is some slight strength decrease if you go too fast. Bob May http://nav.to/bobmay NEW! http://bobmay.astronomy.net ------- Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2003 10:59:02 -0600 From: "LEW BEST" Subject: RE: What kind of paint do you use? From: jeffbenetti >>> I'm fixing up a couple of machines. Yes one of them is a shaper!! :-) I would like to hear from anyone who has recomendations for types of paint to use. Especially if you know of a type of paint to not use. Left to my own devices I would probably use a rust paint. Thanks Jeff PS:Sorry if this has already been asked on this newsgroup. <<< Hi Jeff: I like an enamel that comes from the TSC (Tractor Supply Co.) stores for painting anything that's metal. It is an old fashioned enamel that thins and cleans up with old fashioned mineral spirits. It sprays (using a spray gun) easier without leaving runs, etc. than anything else I've ever tried. Also, it's cheap! Costs something less than $20 per gallon. Only drawback is that it only comes in a few colors. Black, white, maybe brown (don't recall for sure) plus all of the common tractor colors. I'm not very "adventurous" on machine colors so I use Ford tractor gray like the old 8N Fords were painted. Other colors I use for other purposes are IH white (almost perfectly matches Maytag almond) for our washing machine and dryer fronts at the laundromats, painted my Ford Bronco IH red & white (2 tone), and several other things Ford blue, Allis Chalmers orange, etc. The resulting finish is shiny & quite tough. HTH. Lew ------- Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2003 11:14:06 -0600 From: "Harry" Subject: Paint Jeff: By far the best I have found, is the two part epoxy. It brushes on with a minimum of brush marks. Label says it can be sprayed, but I don't risk it in my gun, once it hardens nothing removes it. It is not affected by solvents or oils and is very hard to chip. The only problem I found is the cost. My local dealer only sells it in one gallon cans. (One gallon of each part.) $101.00 Not a lot of colors, six, I think. Who needs two gallons of paint. But on the plus side, the shelf life is several years, and good auto paint (my second choice) is $50 plus a gallon, more when you add in the harder and thinner, primers,etc. If you don't mind constant touchups, the Rustoleum paints, yea I know they don't like being called paint! "protective coating" is a good value for the money. Good luck! ------- Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2003 12:37:32 -0500 From: "Merril Mabon" Subject: Re: What kind of paint do you use? Jeff, I'll second all the statements below. You can't do better than the tractor enamels for quality and price. You may find they are a little "soft" and easily marred the first few days, but they get harder and more durable in time. If you can stay away from the paint for a few days, it is best. Merril ------- Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2003 00:34:59 -0000 From: "dreilanderecht " Subject: Re: What kind of paint do you use? I haven't painted any of my machines myself yet, but I rather like the paint used by Bill Yemm who did up my Alba 1a before I bought it. It is done in a light hammerglaze blue, which looks really nice and is an encouragement to clean it up after use. The vice is painted to match, appropriately enough since it is an original. I doubt if hammerglaze blue was the original finish although you never know. The insides of T slots and slides (eg inside the cross-slide) is painted red, which does seem as if it might be an original feature since the other Alba has the remnants of this too. I have a couple of machines that came new in an off white colour, this also tends to encourage cleaning up. Lots of older machines were done in gray and I think this is actually a disincentive to cleaning them properly. I'm going to have to do a proper job on my "new" Alba 4S since that is gray, and the paint is flaking off badly in places. This is a bit of a daunting prospect...for a smaller machine I would take off parts that don't need painting and thus reduce any masking and so on to a minimum. How do people usually proceed with painting these larger machines? I suppose for some purists, they must be in the original colours, but I have these machines to use, and I also think that lighter colours contribute to safety. regards John ------- Date: Tue, 08 Apr 2003 15:00:06 -0000 From: "lkasdorf" Subject: "Authentic" Atlas paint colors?? When I restore my Atlas 7B shaper and MF mill, I would ideally like to put them back to their original colors. I just like restoring things to the way they looked way back when... On the inside of the shaper's removable door is what I'm pretty sure is its original color. Somewhere in its life somebody painted it with what looks like Rustoleum Smoke Gray, using a brush :( The original color is a light gray that is almost tan. I don't know if this was used on lathes at some point, but I suspect it was. My MF mill, which appears to be a bit older, is a darker gray (under a nearly inpenetrable layer of grime). Has anybody come up with a good source for matching colors? Yes, I can take the piece to a paint store and have them custom mix, but if there is an off-the-shelf paint that is close, I'd much rather go that way. If I can't find a good match, I may just go with Rustoleum Light Machinery Gray, which is a little tannish, but not as much so as the real deal. ------- Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2003 11:49:13 -0400 From: "Richard Farris" Subject: Re: "Authentic" Atlas paint colors?? I'm in the process of restoring an old MH hand feed mill and am using the Smoke gray you just referenced. I'm brushing it on with a soft wide artist's brush. I've taken off the old putrid green that someone put on, by scraping and wirebrushing down thru all layers to the base metal. If you find out what the original color or a reference to it, I'd like to know what it might be. The smoke gray seems to be a bit lighter than the original might have been. Dick Farris ------- Date: Tue, 08 Apr 2003 13:03:19 -0400 From: Damon Gentile Subject: Re: "Authentic" Atlas paint colors?? I did a complete teardown on a 1941 10" lathe last night. It's darker green with touchups of a lighter shade of green. The headstock clamp and bolt were light grey. Later model bed for it (seperate machine) is a much darker grey. -Damon ------- Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2003 10:06:08 -0700 (PDT) From: kndroy Subject: Re: "Authentic" Atlas paint colors?? If you look at my Logan I'm working on... http://www.geocities.com/kndroy/loganlathe.html This is Dem-Kote Blue-Grey. It is from Grainger and Scott Logan of Logan lathes says it's very close to the original Logan color. I don't know if close is good enough for you but at least this gives you an idea how it looks on a machine. Atlas seems to be slightly Greener but is close to this color. Dave ------- Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2003 15:02:54 -0400 From: "Richard Farris" Subject: Re: "Authentic" Atlas paint colors?? Dave: Thanks for the pictures. That Dem-Kote Blue gray looks good. You're right - the Atlas is " greener " but I like that Blue-Gray better. I think I"ll hike over to the local Grainger store and get me some. Thanks for sharing - BTW -Nice work on the Lathe - It looks good. Make more Chips!!! Dick Farris ------- Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2003 14:14:38 -0000 From: "lkasdorf" Subject: looking for "Timken Bearing Equipped" logo art Ok, this is totally cosmetic and has nothing to do with functionality. I'm restoring an Atlas 7B shaper and an MF mill. Now that I find that it is possible to make your own water slide decals, I'd like to attempt to replicate the cool "Timken Bearing Equipped" decal on these machines. The one on the shaper is in moderately ok condition, but the edges and the top were crudely painted over with a brush, years ago by some hapless "restorer". I figure that I can take a good digital photo of the art, pull it into photoshop, and try to reconstruct the logo from what I have. Unfortunately, the upper healf of the roller bearing drawing is gone, so, I'll have to reconstruct that. I was hoping to find a similar "edge-on" photo of a roller bearing at McMaster Carr, but their photo is a different perspective. What I'm hoping is that somebody out there has some printed document with this entire logo, or maybe just the bearing picture, that they could scan and send. If I do this, I'll make the final artwork available to everybody on this forum. Alternatively, if somebody has one of these machines with the logo in good shape, and can take a good quality photo of it, that would be a big help as well. A suitable photo would have to be done on a tripod, carefully lit to avoid glare, not skewed, and quite close-up and in focus. I'm not asking for much, am I? :) I'm thinking that it may be possible that an old box that a timken bearing was packaged in may have some relavent art as well. Thanks much- Lynn Kasdorf ------- Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 13:18:07 -0500 From: "WDSmith" Subject: patina removal >>Is there a good , non invasive way to clean the unpainted surfaces such as dials,beds, etc ? I know that any abrasive is out,any suggestions? There is no heavy rust, just the "patnia" black surface that accumulates over time w/o use.<< Why? You are most likely dealing with a "precision surface" which is probably precise to +/- 0.0005 at the very best and often closer to +/- 0.003". Proper abrasive cleaning would require hours or days to remove 0.0005" of metal and any moderately light rubbing with somethng like white or red polishing (rubbing) compound is unlikely to remove a measurable amount of metal and you would certainly have to do determined labor to remove enough to have any measurable or noticable effect on the machine. Note that "precision" is a relative term. Precision in reference to a dump truck has far different meaning than precision in a Swiss watch. If you are talking in terms of ordinary hobby-grade machines, precision is not that precise. You do want to take care to avoid changing relationships between mating surfaces, and alatering non-adjustable fits. This is typically only a concern when using power assisted abrasive cleaning. You usually get tired long before you can do any damage when working strictly with elbow grease. WDSmith ------- Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 17:24:08 -0700 (PDT) From: kndroy Subject: Re: patina removal --- John & Nancy Griffin wrote: > What Im cleaning up is a bridgeport that has been > sitting for 8 yrs or so. I'm going over it with stoddard and then > a power wash to see what I've really got. DA sanding all the paint > to smooth it up, the degreaser before paint. That power wash will do more damage than the abrasive cleaner! If you do power wash it, plan on taking it down to the bolt! Just get yourself some kerosene and some Scotch Bright pads and go at it. Dave ------- Date: Tue, 08 Jul 2003 04:25:20 -0700 From: "Marty Escarcega" Subject: Re: SB 7" Shaper I've been working on On 8 Jul 2003 at 8:28, Metal_Shapersx~xxyahoogroups.com wrote: > Date: Mon, 7 Jul 2003 16:31:43 -0400 > From: "R. Farris" > Subject: Re: SB 7" Shaper I've been working on > Marty, Nice job. You've put in a lot of work to bring that one back. > Looks like you used a slightly lighter shade of gray paint. Could you > let the group know what brand and shade? Thanks Dick Farris Atlas 7B I'm not "anal" when it comes to paint colors. Its an industrial enamel called Shaf-Lac made by Ellis Paint. Its called Medium Gray. Since I do the sand blasting in my blasing cabinet, I can control pressures etc. Usually sensitive areas are just masked in a couple layers of masking tape or duct tape. Sand Blasting at low pressures does not remove layers of metal. The other trick to polishing is I used woven abrasives, better known as Scotch Brite pads with a small amount of abrasive added when they are manufactured. They are only aggressive enough to polish the metal. I also use the same in a ROLOC disc on my cheapie right angle die grinder. All can be had from MSC. Got a new motor installed in it last night and all the electrics done. I need to make new felt wipers and finish up the countershaft assembly and put the machine on its base and do some adjusting and set the oil pump and she'll be done. Other similar rehabs can be seen on my web page: http://members.cox.net/escarcega I really enjoy doing this sort of work. Just find I am very short on time these days. Sadly this took me better than 6 months to get to! :-( Marty ------- Date: Wed, 09 Jul 2003 01:55:19 -0000 From: "jwelsh1054" Subject: Re: SB 7" Shaper I've been working on Marty: Nice job!! Can you expand a little on how you got the steel components polished so nicely? I assume that you used the Scotch Brite pads and the ROLOC disc for this work?? But, for instance, what grits do you use? What size of pads? How do you use the Scotch Brite pads - in a grinder? a drill? by hand? How do you keep the polished metal surfaces from getting a quick return of surface rust?? Thanks, John in OH ------- Date: Wed, 09 Jul 2003 23:50:26 -0000 From: "Marty Escarcega" Subject: Re: SB 7" Shaper I've been working on Ok, letting out tricks of the trade here. :-) These are MSC Industrial Part numbers; you can go to MSC's Website for more info. The Roloc Surface Conditioning Discs are 3M Brand, you get whatever you have the holder for, hook and loop, Screw On, etc. I use Hook and Loop. I use 2" Maroon for tarnished metal 00319442 .72 each I use 2" Brown for rusty metal 00319434 .81 each For the bench grinder, I put two of these together on the shaft: These are SUPER GREAT for polishing rusty shafts, small tables, nuts bolts etc. 00319921 6"x1/2" Maroon A-MED 3M Hight Strength Disc $3.83ea For large rusted tables (see my web page on the Woodworking on my 16" Walker Turner Bandsaw table) I use on my 7" variable speed Makita Sander/Grinder with Hook and loop backing pad: 00319749 Grade SXCS 7 3M Coating Removal Disc $14.73ea That's it in a nutshell. Of course I use a sand blast cabinet to get all the layers of paint off first. Hope you guys buy a few of the above and give them a go. They sure have been great time savers for me and work wonders. Marty ------- Date: Wed, 09 Jul 2003 23:52:57 -0000 From: "Marty Escarcega" Subject: Re: SB 7" Shaper I've been working on > Well, it might have taken you six months to get a "round tuit" but > you seem to get a lot done in a short time when you do get going. Well, part of that is that it helps to remember how things came apart. I use small plastic parts bins and keep like parts or components of unit grouped together. I also use new fasteners when possible. Lots faster to put in a new bolt/nut than trying to clean and old one. Having the right equipment was lesson learned and actually makes the rehab projects more enjoyable. I have a Rockwell Vertical Mill to finish. Its been sitting for over a year, time to get it done and get it sold. :-) Marty ------- Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2003 05:16:01 -0700 From: "Marty Escarcega" Subject: Re: Digest Number 560 > Thanks for the good info, Marty. I'll give the Scotch Brite a try. > Just one more question regarding your trade secrets - how do you keep > the polished steel from rusting overnight?? Here in Ohio, the > humidity ruins polished steel in a day. John Well, true, we don't have that sort of problem really here in AZ. I just wipe everything down with a cloth with oil on it. There are some rust preventatives out there, Boeshield? and some others. Else you might anodize or have the parts plated (except for machined ways of course) Marty ------- Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2003 08:30:10 -0500 From: xlch58x~xxswbell.net Subject: Re: Re painting lathe If you want a lasting finish, two part epoxies are hard to beat. I use a lot of krylon and rustoleum, but find them inferior for machine tools due to the daily contact with solvents, oils and hard steel objects. Its great for your patio furniture, not so good for a lathe. A cheap touch up gun will do a good job on a lathe or mill. particularly if you are painting each piece as it is reworked. For a really nice finish on cas iron, brush on a thinned down body filler over the whole surface and then sand smooth before primer. The only hassle about the epoxy paints is that you have to work quick and clean up good, because they will set up in the gun. Charles ------- Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2003 10:56:47 -0400 From: "mertbaker" Subject: Re: Re painting lathe Rustoleum is for painting rusty stuff so it will stop rusting. It works real good for that, if not everything else. Krylon is for model airplanes. You need machinery paint. Mert ------- Date: Sat, 30 Aug 2003 17:29:13 -0400 (EDT) From: x xx Subject: Re: Re: Atlas Lathe Restoration Questions... A thought, never used it in this application, so it's only a thought - if you like a gloss finish, try marine enamel. ME applied over its proper undercoast and primer is hard as little nails in about 36 hours, tack dry in, oh say, four. Normally, an etch is applied before the undercoast to give tooth. ME is formulated to stand up the the very corrosive, abrasive ocean environment and I think it just might work because the only time I've ever seen it suffer from a petroleum product was a spill of dyed gas onto a six hour old deck. The white picked up a pink tint, but didn't dissolve! My own preferred brand is Interlux, but there are many other good ones, depending on where you live. Make sure tho' that you get it from a chandler's who deals with real seafaring folk. You can buy stuff labelled "Marine Enamel" down at the old corner hardware store, but it ain't! It's just glossy exterior house paint. Sam ------- Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2003 15:51:21 -0000 From: "pietdriver03" Subject: restoration I own a paint business and the only product you should be considering is a two part poly or epoxy paint. Theses are the ultimate in gloss and durability. They do not chip easily and are very chemically resistant. Even if you spill paint stripper and wipe it off nothing will happen! Endura is one of the best and can be brushed on or sprayed and it comes in ANY colour your heart desires. The battle ship grey of the Atlas is a stock colour. Wayne ------- Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2003 22:35:45 -0700 From: "keith green" Subject: Re: Coating Subject: [Metal_Shapers] Coating >>> Can you guys tell me what the red coating painted on internal machine tool parts that are exposed to oil, is, and where can I get it. Carl <<< Far as I know it's a paint made by these guys http://www.glyptal.com/ At work we just call it "Glyptal". We paint the inside if gearboxes with it to seal the cast iron from the oil in the box. The iron can be somewhat porous and sometimes there are sand inclusions in the iron which may come out under the stress of use. I don't know the exact product off the top of my head but you should be able to find it in their list there somewhere. Keith Green Vancouver, BC ------- Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 21:11:56 -0000 From: "tetrapode2003" Subject: Sandblasting alternative Hi guys, I am currently restoring an old Invictia 2MR Shaper and I found that to get rid of the old paint there is nothing like cheap brake fluid. I just brush it on and let it work overnight. The next day, I brush the paint with a soft brass wrire brush.It peels off easily. Maybe you guys already know that but I wanted to share that tip, Regards, Leonard ------- Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 18:58:21 -0500 From: "Mario L Vitale" Subject: Re: Sandblasting alternative Leonard: That's brilliant! That was a lesson I learned (the hard way) many years ago...but seemed to have forgotten. I'll bet I'm not the only one who dribbled a little brake fluid on a fender and discovered how quickly it softened the paint! Thanks for the reminder. Mario ------- Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2003 17:35:03 -0000 From: "Art Volz" Subject: Brake Fluid Paint Eaters: Re: Sandblasting alternative DOT 3 and DOT 4 brake fluids eat paint. I don't know what all the goodies are that constitute these 2 type fluids, but if I were to use either of them I would wear a breathing mask with the proper filters and rubber gloves...and I would do it outside where the fumes would rapidly dissapate (sp?), move into the upper atmosphere, and thence gobble up the ozone. I would also avoid any and all chlorinated cleaners and paint removers as they are known to cause cancers. If you can acquire a needle scaler, HF or a quality one, its use (with eye protection) should be safer than the use of chemicals. There are many car fix-'em-up chemical products that will remove both paint and lung tissue. One that was popular amongst skeet shooters-- might still be--was aerosol sprayed carburetor cleaner (most are chlorinated) that the shooters would spray into their auto shotguns' gas operating systems to remove built-up carbon deposits. Those having Remington automatic scatter-guns soon learned that it would also remove the fancy high gloss finish from their shotguns' forearms and butt stocks. I've also heard that most brands of imported Sicilian Chianti will work wonders as both paint removers and on "moving" the person doing the paint removing. :-) Art (Houston North: S'ghetti for lunch???) ------- Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2003 11:53:04 -0000 From: "ellcap" Subject: Affordable Needle Scaler Joe Guidry was kind enough to suggest I use a needle scaler for paint removal for my 8" Logan shaper project (Thanks Joe!). Since this was a tool I didn't own, the search began. To my surprise, the price range was from $65 to $486! Looking through the Harbor Freight Tools website for something else, I found a "needle scaler attachment" that fits a standard air impact hammer for $9.99! I bought this along with an import hammer for an additional $9.99 and put them to work. The outcome was great. I usually buy quality tools when necessary. This $20 solution just knocked my socks off so I thought I'd pass the information along. Just in case you are wondering, I have no connection with Harbor Freight Tools. Enjoy! ellcap ------- Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2003 09:55:45 -0800 From: Peter Linss Subject: Re: Re: Questions on finishing pliers >I haven't used it, but I have seen the cans of material that you dip >pliers in and it gives a coating similar to the commercially done items. >It comes in several colors. Think it was at Home Depot or might have >been Lowes or maybe Menards. Ron Roske That stuff's called "PlastiDip". It comes in both cans to dip in and now a spray as well. If you go for the dipping variety make sure to seal the top of the can perfectly after opening it (the lid it comes with doesn't do it) or it will dry out and become useless in a few weeks. The spray lasts until it's out and works well. You have to use several thin coats and let dry for several hours between coats, but it works well. Depending on the store it may be located in either the paint department (with all the specialty sprays, like textures) or in the tool department. Peter ------- NOTE TO FILE: Wear full protective gear and exercise extreme caution when heating any chemical, always!!! ------- Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2004 10:34:59 -0800 From: Alan Rothenbush Subject: Re: Painting Cast Iron For the rebuild of both my recently purchased old Southbend lathe and little Sanford Surface Grinder, I made up my own hot tank out of a two burner hot plate and a _large_ enamel turkey pan. In it went tap water and TSP. Part was inserted and allowed to boil. Two or sometimes three solutions were required, as the paint and grease "polluted" the solution. For the _really_ grungy parts, some wire brushing was required. Eventually a boil of a part in clean TSP resulted in still clean TSP. The part was removed, allowed to cool a bit and and then washed/rinsed in hot clean water. Removing it from the water allowed things to rust very quickly (indicating - to me - a high degree of cleanliness). So I would towel and blow it dry and begin to paint almost immediately. The paint seems to stick _very_ well. Perhaps this is the paint used, perhaps it's the cleanliness, perhaps the surface was etched ever so slightly by the TSP. Don't know and don't care .. the setup works so well that I'm going to turn it into a more permanent arrangement. One little note .. beware using this scheme on "pot metal" (and perhaps aluminum as well). The surface gets _severely_ blackened. The black does scrub off, with a lot of work, but it's a _lot_ of work, and I suspect that if left to boil long enough, the part would disappear. Alan ------- Date: Sat, 14 Feb 2004 23:16:31 EST From: LouD31M066x~xxaol.com Subject: Re: Paint color Judging by past comments choosing a color is least of your problems. Paint must resist staining by oil and also set up or harden in a reasonable time frame. "Usual Suspect" paints apparently give little satisfaction. Louis ------- NOTE TO FILE: Louis' comment is borne out by others' experiences here. ------- Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2004 17:47:24 -0000 From: "johnjach2001" Subject: sandblasting cast parts Just bought an Atlas/Craftsman 3980 lathe and I want to restore it. I want to bring all the cast iron parts back to bare metal for repainting. Is it possible to remove remove all parts from the headstock, tailstock, and carriage? This would make sandblasting much easier. ------- Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2004 15:09:10 -0500 From: xlch58x~xxswbell.net Subject: Re: sandblasting cast parts Make sure that you put tape over all of the machined surfaces before blasting. Typically, blasting is not the preferred method since it is hell on machined surfaces and you have to make sure you get all of the sand out. Years ago I used to have them hot tanked by a friend that was an engine builder. It is a caustic lye solution that pretty much removes all grease and paint. You may find someone in your area that can do this. Charles ------- Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2004 21:23:28 +0100 From: "Nigel Spurr" Subject: Re: sandblasting cast parts I used standard chemical paintstripper with no complaints at all after dismantling and degreasing. I would not shotblast because you must be certain to clear all debris. Also, on an oily surface it is not very effective and the shot sticks to the oil. After paintstripping, I used acid alloy wheel cleaner which is a solution of 30% phosphoric and 5% hyrochloric acid to give a slight etch to the surface. Paint used was oil based chromate matal primer, 3 brushed coats of oil based coach enamel undercoat, rubbed down between each coat then 2 coats of topcoat. Some of the cast surfaces after this tratment look smoooth. Hard work but worth it. To make life even easier there are paints around that can be used to "fill" castings to render cast surfaces smooth. Have fun! Nigel ------- Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2004 19:14:11 -0500 From: "TONY CLARK" Subject: Touch up paint Has anyone discovered a good match for the original Atlas-Craftsman paint in a "rattle can"? I've tried "Rust Master and Krylon and they aren't even close. Tony in Texas ------- Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2004 22:53:02 -0500 From: "Scott J Janson" Subject: RE: Touch up paint Tony, I have a 10" Atlas QC54 and I have good luck with a product called Premium RUST-OLEUM it is a Gloss Protective Enamel. The color is #7784 CHARCOAL GRAY. spider5911 Scott ------- Date: Sat, 7 Aug 2004 12:25:27 -0400 From: "Bill Hardin" Subject: RE: Touch up paint Krylon's Universal Gray isn't too far off, darker gray. Bill Hardin http://www.homeshopsupply.com Craftsman 109 Lathe Support ------- Date: Tue, 09 Aug 2005 13:01:36 -0000 From: "kennynucklehead" Subject: Re: Kenny's Late 30's Craftsman Lathe Restoration In atlas_craftsmanx~xxyahoogroups.com, "drifter1951" wrote: > I've just started on my 1941 10F TV54 ... everything apart for > cleaning and re-paint - but all I've managed to do is clean and > prime one leg ... LOL, it will get done eventually ...Drifter Suggest you purchase a fresh roll of 1/2 in. wide masking tape from a body paint supply shop and get a good razor knife. Take the time to mask off all milled surfaces and interlocking slide, fitting surfaces on your parts. I also either use spare machine screws/bolts or the originals to protect all threaded holes. The screws/bolts can be removed after painting and then emersed in a can of solvent/gasoline for 10 minutes or so ant the fresh paint comes off completely. On some of the larger holes I want to protect, I used short sections of wooden dowel rods, occasionally built up slightly with masking or electrical tape as "plugs". I simply used a decent quality enamel primer and topcoat in spray cans and find when dry a few days the paint has been quite durable and resistant to oils. Wouldn't want to flood the painted surfaces with strong solvents for a while. Kenny ------- Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 00:55:11 -0000 From: "sauer38h" Subject: Re: Kenny's Late 30's Craftsman Lathe Restoration > cleaning and re-paint - but all I've managed to do is clean and > prime one leg ... LOL, it will get done eventually ... Why not paint that one leg something really ghastly, like purple or pink or yellow, and call it done. Then whenever you look at that leg, you'll congratulate yourself for not painting the rest of the lathe. More psychology, less paint. ------- NOTE TO FILE: There was a question in the taigtools group on 18 Dec 2005 with regard to strange "scuff marks" found on the underside of the Taig lathe saddle. They were in fact crude factory additions to hold lubricant. Once the discussion got more general as to how to scrape metal contact surfaces, further comments were transferred here for the benefit of any tool owner needing better lubrication or flattening. ------- Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2005 08:48:52 -1000 (HST) From: benedict-listx~xxhawaii.rr.com Subject: Re: scuff marks on the ways - normal or defect? [taigtools] To digress: For anyone interested in hand scraping (the process of making a surface extremely flat) and flaking (the process of making oil pockets in machine ways), I wholeheartedly recommend checking out Michael Morgan's site: http://www.machinerepair.com I've got the Basic Scraping book, the Basic Hand Scraping video, and an Anderson tube scraper. All of these have been invaluable in my project of restoring a Lewis 10" shaper from the tool graveyard. (A project I can get back to in the near future, thank goodness.) The process of flaking can be as crude or as refined as you might like. Most machine ways, even on the really nice machines, were done by hand, by eye, and quite quickly. (The results are also gorgeous.) It takes some practice, but it's entirely doable. On at least one Bugatti restoration site I've seen, the flaking marks during restoration were laid out very carefully on a penciled grid. I'm not sure if this reflects Bugatti factory standards at the time, but it does result in extremely regular results. If you're learning to scrape and flake for the first time, your best friend aside from a scraper and a surface plate is a chunk of gray cast iron to practice on. Unslotted angle plates work great. Once you find out how straightforward the process is, everything starts looking like a surface in need of flatness and flaking. Though utterly and completely unnecessary, every flat machined surface on my shaper is going to wind up scraped and flaked. As with the Bugatti engines, the scraping on these non-way surfaces will be strictly decorative. But ooooh are they ever decorative. And since this whole project is as much a labor of love as it is a way to get a 10" shaper into my shop, I don't mind spending the time. Tom ------- Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2005 16:57:24 -0800 From: "Paul W. Chamberlain" Subject: Re: scuff marks on the ways - normal or defect? >For those of us unfamiliar with the process and its results, do you have >any images of such decorative surfaces? Dave K How's this? http://www.lathes.co.uk/rivett/page2.html http://www.lathes.co.uk/rivett/page3.html Paul, Central OR ------- Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2005 01:45:33 -0000 From: "campgems" Subject: Re: scuff marks on the ways - normal or defect? Paul, and Dave, if you look close at the examples, these are all functional slide areas. While the scraping marks may look decorative, they are functional. The "skuff Marks" are a bad attempt to what we called fish hooks. After the ways were scraped to the desired flatness, we went back and put a pattern of fish hooks in for what has accurately been described as Oil traps. Note that these were done on upper surfaces, and were only a couple of tenths deep. We usually went in with a circular gouge and cut some serious oil grooves in a Z pattern on the upper part of the assemply, IE a saddle on a lathe. Junk settles on the ways and the wipers will take most of it off. You didn't want anything that would trap grit or chips, so the fish hooks were very shallow. Decorative finish was usually in the form of fish scales. Don ------- Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2005 23:03:28 -1000 (HST) From: benedict-listx~xxhawaii.rr.com Subject: Re: scuff marks on the ways - normal or defect? Not handy, but I can take some pictures of surfaces I've done. Meanwhile, here's the Bugatti page: http://leydonrestorations.com/Zwords/92PurSang/92pursang.html Tom P.S. From what Michael Morgan said, using an old file as a scraper is rough on the hands, back, shoulders, etc. This is one reason I opted to buy a tube scraper, which is much longer than any file I own. I'm 100% pleased I went this route, considering the back problems I've had in the past. And considering the pictures on that site, I'm glad for my hands as well. ------- Re: Beyond crud [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: "jmartin957x~xxaol.com" jmartin957x~xxaol.com Date: Fri Jun 23, 2006 6:47 am (PDT) One thing to keep in mind when contemplating chemical stripping or blasting is that many older machines had a filler coat under the paint. The filler was often a heavy black asphaltum-like material that filled casting holes and smoothed out rough casting surfaces. Strip the paint and you'll strip the filler too, and you may not like the look of the casting without filler. Some people replace it with a light coat of Bondo or similar auto body filler. That said, I am not sure whether any of the Atlas machines used a filler coat. If any did, it was probably only the older ones. During WWII, most manufacturers discontinued the filler coat to increase their production rates, and you'll often see WWII machines with a "war finish" tag on them. Hand tools as well, with chrome or nickel plating replaced by cadmium, zinc or paint. I'll admit I'm mixed on refinishing anyway. If there's any rust, I'll do it. Or, if I have a machine apart anyway. My horizontal mill weighs about a ton, and I had to break it down to move it and get it into the basement, so it's all nicely painted now. The old Rhodes shaper has a nice machinery gray cast iron base now, but the main casting, table and ram are still the original Rhodes black. The surface grinder is the same bright green it was when I got it, although I did strip and repaint the rusting cast iron legs. They match the top, which still has a factory-stenciled number on it - I'm guessing from Grumman or one of the other aircraft factories. The green is by no means the original color, but it's part of the machine's history and it doesn't bother me at all. The band saw is not the original Delta gray but a rather hideous orange that was applied with a brush in the foundry that had it before I did. The Parks planer had some rust, so that's now a nice machine gray. The rest have their original finishes, including the Atlas lathe (with its blue replacement compound slide, which constantly reminds me to back it off when boring or parting - so that's a "good" thing...). One pro for refinishing. Breaking a machine down into its component parts, and stripping those to bare metal, is a great way to get to know the machine intimately and to find any cracks, bad bearings, loose parts, etc. For cleaning, I have generally used Gunk SC. It's a soap concentrate that you mix about 1:10 with kerosene. The kerosene cuts the crud; the concentrate allows it to be hosed off with water. Haven't been able to find it recently, although I know they still make it. 5F5 stripper for heavy paint. Hand wire brush, and a knotted wire brush in the angle grinder for large surfaces. Followed all up with purple cleaner. John Martin ------- Re: Beyond crud Posted by: "n8as1x~xxaol.com" n8as1x~xxaol.com Date: Fri Jun 23, 2006 3:56 pm (PDT) John ...i am feeling a lot better now after ur post ...when i look at my 1893 hacksaw & 1920? handmill painted int.harvester red,also the 14 in 1895 reed lathe w/ "hideous orange "...rest of the stuff is either grey or sears blue gray .oh yeah , green china bandsaw...truth is ,w/time, i actually have come to like the the bright colors ... best wishes docn8as ------- Painting [MyMyford] Posted by: "lamestllama2000" ericx~xxeparsonage.com Date: Mon Nov 26, 2007 12:05 am ((PST)) Hi all this is my first post. I have an ML7 that need repainting. It has the original paint but in poor condition especially so on the belt guards. In fact most of this paint has fallen off the aluminium pieces. I recently had the bed and saddle reground here in Australia for around $500 AUD and have a brand new cross slide so I want the machine to look like new. Can somebody give me some ideas on how to go about repainting it? Should I remove all the old paint of the bed? How should I degrease it? How do I protect the newly ground bed from getting stained whilst degreasing? What should I use for filling holes gaps etc? Basically I have no idea how to proceed. Any help would be appreciated. Regards Eric PS once this is done I have a super 7 to do the same with. ------- Re: Painting Posted by: "tr0up" tr0upx~xxyahoo.com Date: Tue Nov 27, 2007 12:44 am ((PST)) Eric Do you have access to paint spraying equipment? If not, it's worth thinking about looking around for a second hand compressor; you'll find it's a lot of work to get a 'like new' finish if you have to paint with a brush I've just painted the bed and the tailstock on my Super 7, and I'd have to say the bed was easier to get a good result with than the tailstock was. I've never had spray equipment before, but the finish I got on the bed is, if I say so, much better than it ever was new (I've had the lathe in question since new, so I can say that with confidence). There are two main reasons: Big, essentially rectangular things (which the bed broadly speaking is) are easy, because you get a chance to adjust your spraying speed at the start of each sweep, and then you can come back from the other end at that same speed, which covers any unevenness where you began the sweep, before you had any way of judging the speed. The speed is crucial to the thickness or "build", more on this below. Secondly, each face of such a boxy item doesn't affect the other faces (remembering that the ways will be masked off) with overspray, spoiling the gloss. With something small and complex like a tailstock, it's a bit harder to get enough coverage in each coat so that it "levels" to a smooth finish, without putting too much on in places (leading to runs) and not enough in others (leading to a spotty finish because a thin coat will not level). Furthermore it can be hard to come up with a sequence whereby the overspray from some surfaces does not impinge on surfaces where the paint has nicely levelled. In the end I cheated with my tailstock by doing what car painters do: (having put on many many coats, rubbed back between each one, and then left it a few weeks to get really hard - neither of which they typically do these days): I then rubbed the final coat back to dead smooth with REALLY fine wet and dry paper (2500 and 3000), used wet with a dash of detergent, then hand-buffed it with a very fine rubbing compound to restore the gloss. However the result is not quite as gorgeous as the immaculate gloss, straight from the gun, I managed to get with the bed. There is a further difficulty with the tailstock: it has so many machined bores, some threaded, and all of which have to be plugged for painting. It's easy enough to do this with corks of various sizes, which can be ground from larger corks by cutting the head off an old fashioned wood screw, screwing this into the axis of the cork, chucking the plain part of the shank in a drill gun, and holding the spinning cork to the side of a grinding wheel on a bench grinder (with the grinder running). However what I didn't fully realise was that, after the application of a number of coats, the paint system will form a radiused fillet onto the cork (if it projects) or a strong cap across the end (if it's flush). This skin of paint will be quite strong and somewhat brittle, given that you need to use a hard paint to stand up to the rigours of machine tool use. It is next to impossible to extricate the bung without fractures propagating into the adjacent paintwork, and thick scabs of beautiful paintwork falling off. If I did it again, in the case of all except the small holes (for oil nipples and grubscrews) I would drive the corks slightly underflush. Then I'd degrease very thoroughly indeed around each hole with something like "Prepsol" (ask an industrial paint supply house for some grease and wax remover), and scuff the surface with, say, a file sharpened like a scraper, but with the teeth running right to the end, so you provide lots of tiny keying scratches in the casting. Paint adhesion around the holes is particularly important. After each coat (or two if you're going overboard with the number of topcoats, like me !), once the paint has had at least a day to go off, I'd gently run a countersink in each hole (the first time it would countersink the cork also) until the paint inside the mouth of the hole is separated from the painted surface proper by an unbroken ring of bright metal. At the end of the job, I'd carefully scrape the mouth of the bore free of paint, preferably using a sharp piece of brass. In the case of the small threaded holes, special measures are in order as these are particularly prone to the paint flaking off around them. If you can get grubscrews of the right thread for the smaller holes, their hex holes could be countersunk in advance. The idea here would be to use the grubscrew as a depth stop for the countersink used to clean the paint from the rim of the hole. This would stop the countersink getting bigger and bigger, and (if you wanted a truly superb result) you could back the screw out a skerrick each time after countersinking, so you ended up with paint running to the edge but no further. The large threaded bore at the back end of the tailstock is a bit difficult (although not on the ML7: this is just an unpainted turned boss: it can be masked around, and across the bore, which makes painting it a doddle.) I ended up painting the end face of the casting right to the edge of the hole, so now I'll have to scrape or sand a narrow ring so separate the paint on the end face from the paint on the conical tail of the tailstock before I take a lick off that end face (with a fly cutter, probably, unless I can get it off with a sharp brass scraper) to remove all the paint, so my threaded boss screws fully on and the third oil nipple (on that boss) goes back to pointing upwards! (guess who didn't think that through before painting!) As regards recommendations as to what paints to use: I went for a vinyl etch primer (like PA10, but in this part of the world PA10 is no longer usable because they've changed the formulation, presumably for occupational safety and health reasons, and it turns to frogs eggs in winter, and doesn't turn back into a prince come spring !). Unfortunately the substitute product they sold me instead does not quite seem to match the adhesion of PA10, because in a couple of places on the tailstock, where scabs of paint pulled off around holes, the whole paint system pulled right back to bare metal. Grrr ! I did about three coats of the primer, then I used a premium surfacer, the sort car painters use, which is a thick chalky paint you can spray to a decent build, and which sands nicely. The one I was sold used lacquer thinners, which surprised me, but I was told it would not affect the primer as long as the former had fully dried. There certainly seemed to be no problems. I did lots of coats of surfacer, rubbing each coat back, and filling low areas with a filler made by mixing West epoxy resin with phenolic microspheres (this is what boatbuilders use; it's strong and sticks well, and it sands nicely) It can be applied with a small spatula such as tilers use for grouting tiles in bathrooms. In the case of the bed, I paid a lot of attention to the rough areas inside the ways, and also made a smooth job of the gap, both areas having been a pain to wipe clean because Myfords hadn't fettled it very well to start with. Topcoats: I used a premium spraying enamel, with an "activator" mixed at one part to eight of paint, which makes the finished system harder wearing. If you do this you'll have to get them to colour-match (say) a leadscrew bracket: you may need to go back and get them to fine tune it once you've had a coat dry off. If using activator, only activate enough for what you are about to paint, and on ON account tip back mixed paint into the tin. Premium spraying enamel is not the most expensive paint, but 2 litres (easily enough to do a Myford) will still cost maybe $70NZ, whatever that is where you are. You need to thin it a lot more for spraying than for brushing, and one good tip for avoiding runs when it's thin enough to level nicely: before spraying a full coat, waft a "mist" coat all over (with no intention of covering) and let it go tacky for a few minutes before doing your full wet coat. I didn't bother doing this on the bed, but on the tailstock it helped a lot. If you're in a windy part of the world, like me, dust is the bane of painting outside (and in my case, because my workshop is as dusty as a Dickensian attic - and because of the fumes - spray painting inside is not particularly viable. What I didn't realise is how much easier it is to get a good gloss finish when the weather is cool and humid. Otherwise the paint starts to set before it has a chance to flow enough to level the little craters left by the spray blast, even with the pressure regulated right down (as it should be) The other thing to consider is taking in all the blackened items (washers, fasteners, collars, levers etc) which are no longer uniformly deep black to a gunsmith or metal treatment specialist (like some metal platers) for black oxide treatment (sometimes known as "Parkerising"). It's not very expensive if you've got lots of pieces. There's often a minimum charge of say NZ$40 which covered about thirty pieces I took in from the two Myfords I'm currently doing up. If any of the pieces are mottled afterwards, or not deep black, don't be too convinced by their protestations that it's the material. I had them redo about a third of the batch, and in almost every case the second time was pretty much like new. A good gunsmith will probably do a better job, but charge more. As far as cleaning up the bed: I used one of the miraculous 3M stripping wheels - looks like a birds nest squashed flat - made of a strong elastomer with abrasive distributed right through the material. I screwed this onto the rubber pad of my 7" sander/polisher, but with care they can be used in a grunty 1/2" drill gun, although ideally you don't want a mandrel poking out the middle. You can't run them at angle grinder speed, I don't think. (My sander only does 6000 rpm) There's no need to remove all the paint: if it's in good shape, just scuff it with 320 grit wet and dry. I stayed away from the ways with the wicked 3M beast: I used a degreaser (Prepsol or equivalent - wax and grease remover, from any industrial paint supply house) before masking the ways, then used a steel wire hand brush to remove any loose and flaking paint, including between the ways. Remember to mask top, sides and bottom of each bedway: ten surfaces in all. The freshly remachined ways have stayed in perfect nick under the masking tape, but if doing it again I'd make sure I had at least two layers of tape everywhere on the ways: it just saves a bit of work scraping off the thin vestige of paint which can seep through one layer. I started each coat on the bed with it lying upside down on its masked ways. I left off painting the ends until I'd turned it over each time, so I had something dry to pick it up by. Sorry to be so longwinded, I hope I haven't put you off the whole project ! It's quite a lot of work, very rewarding nevertheless, and I'm really looking forward to having it all back together. I do think the Myford castings are rather lovely in form and proportion, especially the tailstocks, but also the beds, which I guess is why it's so enjoyable making them -- if anything -- more beautiful than new. ------- Re: Painting Posted by: "Eric Parsonage" ericx~xxeparsonage.com Date: Tue Nov 27, 2007 1:53 am ((PST)) Thanks so much for your very complete reply. You have answered all my main questions and given me the courage to continue. Is there any chance you can give me the brand names of the materials you used? Eric ------- Re: Painting Posted by: "tr0up" tr0upx~xxyahoo.com Date: Tue Nov 27, 2007 12:42 pm ((PST)) Eric, A couple more small points: PPG is an Australian company (I don't know where you are). In regard to the grubscrew idea for plugging the small holes: I've been trying to think of a suitable release compound to inhibit the paint bonding to the thread. Otherwise the notion of progressively backing the grubscrew out to 'follow' the painted surface -- so that as the coats accumulate, you're countersinking only the paint, not the casting -- is probably a risky strategy, given that although this procedure will prevent the paint wrapping around the end of the screw, it will not prevent it bonding sideways to the thread, hence reintroducing the possibility of ripping off scabs when the screw is eventually removed. I guess to some extent the action of turning the screw after each coat will mean that no strong connection can develop, but it would be nice to add braces to the belt, by treating the thread in some way. It has to be something which will not dissolve into the paint immediately around the hole, possibly affecting adhesion to the casting. I wonder if graphite powder might do the trick. ------- Re: Painting Posted by: "John Middleton" beehivex~xxgotadsl.co.uk Date: Tue Nov 27, 2007 12:49 pm ((PST)) On locos (Gauge 1) we use a heavy wax pencil to stop paint sticking. How about applying the pencil to both threads? John Middleton ------- Re: Painting Posted by: "tr0up" tr0upx~xxyahoo.com Date: Tue Nov 27, 2007 3:58 pm ((PST)) Thanks for that, John. Sounds promising -- what purpose do "heavy wax pencils" normally get sold for, and by whom? ------- Re: Painting Posted by: "John Middleton" beehivex~xxgotadsl.co.uk Date: Wed Nov 28, 2007 12:29 am ((PST)) I used to be a navigator and used Chinograph pencils and still have a couple, but childrens wax crayons should do as well. In fact anything that stops paint adhesion -- a graphite pencil line will stop flux travelling where it's not wanted when silver soldering for instance. John ------- Re: Painting Posted by: "Phil Tuck" folliesx~xxntlworld.com Date: Wed Nov 28, 2007 1:33 am ((PST)) That's a handy one I didn't know. Thanks John. Phil ------- goose grey paint [MyMyford] Posted by: "goldstardbd32" KARENDBD34x~xxAOL.COM Date: Sat Jan 12, 2008 3:11 pm ((PST)) Does anyone have a supplier for the goose grey paint that myfords used on their ml7 and s7 lathes, the colour that they supply now is nowhere near the correct grey. I know that it was supplied by trimite but where does one find someone who is capable of mixing the correct matching colour and is this the reason why myford don't sell one that matches. I've tried the local auto colour mix people but all have failed to come up with the right colour match they say that i need a wet sample to get the correct colour, any help on this matter would be useful not only to me but to everyone restoring myford machines. ------- Re: goose grey paint Posted by: "David Clark" david.anthony.clarkx~xxntlworld.com Date: Sun Jan 13, 2008 2:02 am ((PST)) Hi There, Myford grey was a British Standards Institute Colour so should be still available. If you are repainting the whole lathe, Hammerite Gunmetal Smooth paint is ideal. I believe it is in the garden colours range. regards David ------- Re: goose grey paint Posted by: "christopher359" cdavisonx~xxbtinternet.com Date: Sun Jan 13, 2008 10:33 am ((PST)) Hello. I think RAL 7011 is a fair match. Rgds Chris ------- Re: My lathe, together at last. [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: "Stanley, Joey" joey.stanleyx~xxnov.com Date: Wed Apr 23, 2008 7:00 am ((PDT)) "porscheman54" james.ricex~xxgmail.com wrote: > Looks good Joey. I can't wait until Saturday when I pick up my TH54. I've noticed a lot of personal choices about paint colors. Yours' are bright, I've noticed blues, a lot of "machine tool gray". My 618 is painted in dark gray Hammertone paint and I'll probably paint the TH54 in the same paint. I bought several cans of other colors of Hammertone, so I've been refinishing some bench grinders and other tools in various shades of the same paint. Not that they are going to stay all chip free and shiny after some use, but I can start out good looking. I personally like the John Deere look. Brings back memories of my dad's old "Poppin Johhny" and my grandfathers' farms. < James: I have given paint colors some thought. I like the thought of having everything painted the same color because it looks professional. I originally was going to go with Safety Blue, but my son loves the color green so that is what I started with on the drill press. Getting the lathe already painted yellow kind of changed my mind. I now think lighter bright colors are the way to go because of lighting. A light silver Hammertone would be nice. I have an old Ford valve cover hanging on the wall that I painted Hammertone and it looks nice. My color choice also had a lot to do with identification; if my tools are ever stolen it will be easy to identify them if they are painted a non-standard color. When and if I find that I am happy with the performance and setup of the lathe I will pull it apart again for a repaint as well as building a stronger bench. Joey ------- Re: Colors [Metal_Shapers] Posted by: "Mike" 57chevywagonmanx~xxsbcglobal.net Date: Sat Jun 28, 2008 4:54 am ((PDT)) "Tim Coppage" wrote: > Does anyone know where to find out about the original colors of the > South Bend and Logan shapers? South Bend machines were almost always gray. They could be ordered in any custom color you desired, to match the other machines in your shop. I have never seen any original machines painted any color but gray. Logans were most likely gray as well. Unless it is a Powermatic Logan. Then it would be a dark green. Mike ------- Re: Colors Posted by: "ptkeillor3" keillorp135x~xxchartermi.net Date: Sat Jun 28, 2008 7:10 am ((PDT)) My Logan 8" has the original paint, but it apparently dates from 1952, so it might have faded over the years. I couldn't find a picture, but it's a dark blue-grey. I think they changed to a more typical grey later. At least a couple accessories I picked up later are grey. Pete Keillor ------- Re: Colors Posted by: "Jim B." btdtrfx~xxverizon.net Date: Sat Jun 28, 2008 7:54 am ((PDT)) Well I am not sure about the Shaper but here is the skinny on the South Bend lathe colors. There were three, although SB purchased their paint from many vendors and it did vary from vendor to vendor, Before (about) 1934 the lathes were black. This was not really a paint but a finish process called Japanning. Between 1934 and 1939 (about) This is the color used. http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3169/2618529990_f78c65a008_o.jpg That formula is from Dennis Turk who has restored many old SB lathes. After that here is the mixture. This section came from the Yahoo SB group Archives. This is from 2001. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I took a part to my local Benjamin Moore paint dealer and the put the part under a color analyzer, and the following is a dead match to my color. The paint is Benjamin Moore Urethane Alkyd Industrial Enamel tinted as follows: M22-3B + OY-4, BK-28, BB-2, GY-4, WH-1X Per Quart. It really looks like battleship grey to me. I'm not sure, but you may be able to spray this paint on, thinning it and using a gun. Last night I pre-brushed a very light coat of mineral spirits onto the compound casting and then flowed a coat of paint with a brush. The mineral spirits helps the paint flow and eliminates brush marks. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I understand that SW has renamed their paint and it is Now M23. Now I don't know when SB started making Shapers but, if you have any guess as to the age, pick the color you think best fits the project. Good Luck Jim B. ------- Re: Colors Posted by: "donzmill" don_zinggx~xxhotmail.com Date: Sat Jun 28, 2008 9:13 am ((PDT)) Tim, Ace Hardware sells an oil-based enamel for metal called "Rust Stop." The Medium Gray (Gloss) #225A103 (ACE 16566) color is verrry close to the original gray on my mid-1960's Logan shaper. Cost is around $14 for a quart can. I pulled the nameplate off the door and found a nice shiny patch of original paint for comparison. Don ------- Re: Colors Posted by: "Tim Coppage" ib61soonx~xxcox.net Date: Sat Jun 28, 2008 10:13 am ((PDT)) Thanks Guys. I was pretty sure the SB was machine grey but I've seen pictures of Atlas's that were a blue grey and looked good. I wasn't sure about the Logan. Mine is a '61 and is currently green. I wasn't sure if the green was the orginal or not. T ------- NOTE TO FILE: For touch ups, or complete blueing of steel tools, Brownells has both professional quality industrial products and small amounts of cold-blue solutions. If contemplating using these cold-blue products, how do you choose which one -- and how do you know how well each works? The next message provides a link to a customer's comparison test of three popular products. And while there, be sure to browse through other Brownells pages. Lots of tools and products useful to any metalworker or woodworker. The printed catalog is inexpensive and very worthwhile keeping as a reference. ------- Re: blueing steel [barstockengines] Posted by: "Garry" garrymacdonald998x~xxhotmail.com Date: Tue Dec 2, 2008 8:09 pm ((PST)) Brownell's website has pdf's of their Product Instructions that will give an idea of the effort required, while this article compares the various product's results: http://www.brownells.com/aspx/NS/GunTech/NewsletterAr chive.aspx?p=0&t=2&i=507 Garry ------- Repainting an ML7 [MyMyford] Posted by: "timperrin97" perrti02x~xxgmail.com Date: Thu Mar 26, 2009 1:23 pm ((PDT)) Hello, I am about to start the painful task of putting my ML7 into storage (sits in a corner sobbing for the best part of a week and a half) and I was planning on repainting it before I do so. First of all, is it a good idea to do it in this order and secondly how much paint (in litres) will I be needing to paint the lathe itself and gearbox. I won't be painting the stand. Many Thanks Tim ------- Re: Repainting an ML7 Posted by: "Tim Ostley" Tim.Ostleyx~xxgooglemail.com Date: Thu Mar 26, 2009 3:17 pm ((PDT)) Dear Tim, You will find that the standard sized tin of Myford enamel (I think it's 250 ml) will do more than one lathe if you are just putting one coat on. If you are going to do a complete rub down and fill, prime and paint then others will have more information. The Myford supplied enamel I used to repaint my S7 was excellent stuff and I need to get some more! As an aside, make sure you lanolin the unpainted parts to protect them. Its mucky stuff but works well. I think I got a tub from the chemist and it is still going strong many years later. Hope this helps. Tim ------- NOTE TO FILE: "Japanning" is a term for the black finish put on many hand tools; a process used for more than a hundred years. Tool makers would have had various recipes for this finish but most included a product called asphaltum which is still available on the market. There should be lots of recipes on the net if you do a web search. One used on Ford vehicles included rosin to make the finish tougher. [Ford actually used more than 30 variations of black paint during the production of early cars. The formula was adjusted depending on where the part went, and how long was available for the part to dry before it was installed.] Nowadays it is more common to use a proprietary black paint. The following conversation from the OldTools group relates to restoring the japanned finish on old metal-bodied woodworking handplanes. But such is a practical finish for many other tools. ------- Date: Thu, 2 Apr 2009 09:08:27 -0400 From: "Bill Taggart" Subject: RE: [OldTools] Re: Re-coating Preparation Just to be clear, I was kinda facetious in my "holy war" comment - just remembering some of the old days here on the Porch. I most definitely am not one to say "never, ever, ever, strip and repaint an old tool." The "it depends" is based mostly on rarity, as you observe, but also on the condition of the tool to begin with. I mean if the japan is in reasonably decent condition, I won't bother stripping it all off and refinishing the tool. I usually won't do that unless it's in pretty sad shape. Let's assume we're talking about a plane. If it's the case that it's a sad bastid and the finish is shot, it's all rusty, etc., and it really just needs the Full Monty treatment (and it's not an uncommon item - e.g., it's a standard Stanley bench plane), then sure, I'll strip it. I usually totally disassemble the plane and put the body in an old cake pan I've got banging around the shop, then pour liquid chemical stripper on it. Takes everything right off, down to bare metal. BTW, I also should point out that, as has been discussed here before, this is mostly for tools that I'm going to keep and use myself. If I'm going to sell it, well, first of all, I won't try to sell a clapped-out old sad bastid plane. And it's not worth the time it takes to do a full refurbish on a rust-bucket only to try to sell it. If I have done any kind of restoration or refurbishing on a tool I'm selling, I will fully disclose that it has been refurbished and it's not the original finish. As far as whether to use japan finish or something other, well, again - it depends and AFAIC, it's personal preference. But on a common-as-mud Stanley #5 or something similar, I'm interested in putting on a finish that will protect it from rust, look good and be durable - and is relatively easy to apply. I have had excellent results with Rustoleum black appliance epoxy in a rattle can, baked on in a toaster oven. With three coats, it actually mimics a japan finish very well in appearance - but again, I'm not doing it with the idea of convincing anyone it's the original finish. It's very simple and relatively quick to apply, and once cured, it's hard as a rock. There is a guy in the local antique tool club who proudly brought in his "set" of Stanley bench planes (#2 - #8), all of which he had "restored". Half of them he had painted bright red; the others he had painted with some sort of thin black paint; a lot of the totes shows signs of having been power-sanded somehow. I figured, well, (1) they're tools, not the Hope Diamond or a phenomenally rare Bugatti; (2) they're user-grade tools, not a one-of-a-kind ivory-tipped Sandusky Center Wheel plane; and (3) they're HIS tools, so he can do whatever the hell he wants with them, and if that appearance pleases him, so be it. He wasn't trying to sell them; he was just showing them off. If they were mine, however, I would not have painted them red, and I would not have been so aggressive in sanding the totes and knobs. It also looked like he had varnished the wood, which I never do. I like my users to look good, but after all, they are user tools, and they're mine - so I don't agonize at all over what anyone else thinks I should do regarding cleaning or finishing them. Been there, done that, don't care anymore, they're my tools, nobody else has to look at them if it offends them to know that the black finish is not an honest-to- gosh, gen-yoo-wine, hand-applied with a badger brush and baked in the autumn sun japan finish made from 100-year-old asphaltum. Several of my very nice users started out as useless rusty hulks that otherwise would have been tossed in the trash, so I feel no remorse whatsoever about de-rusting, stripping finishes and repainting to return them to usable tools. OTOH, I have a #2 (very small smoother, Jeff, but not as tiny, rare or valuable as a #1) a #3C (small smoother with corrugated sole, Jeff) and a #4 (common-as mud standard-sized smoother, Jeff) that were in excellent condition when I acquired them, with very nearly 100% japanning and just very light, dusty orange surface rust here and there. A few swipes with fine steel wool and some paste wax, and they look fantastic. It would be silly to bother stripping and refinishing them - even the common-as-mud #4. Bill T. ------- Date: Thu, 02 Apr 2009 10:18:22 -0700 From: scott grandstaff Subject: Re: [OldTools] Re: Re-coating Preparation I have, on several occasions, rejapanned planes right over top of the old. Yes, it can be done. It's just a matter of preparation and brush control. It'll be lumpy as kid who just tumbled off his bike at the -top- of the hill if you aren't careful, no doubt about that. But it doesn't have to be. Original type japan is thick, very thick to apply. Filling in the low places is pretty easy. You are going to be doing several coats anyway. When I did my 608 [model number of handplane] it had "almost" 1/3 the old japanning left; most that was left was pretty dull. After I'd zapped off all the loose rust (the loose japan came off too), I went after what was left with fine sandpaper and coarse steel wool. Smoothing and mostly feathering out. Next, over a couple days, I dabbed paint into the missing places several times, feathering with the brush, and let it air dry between coats. Smooth out with fine abrasive at the end. Then a full coat, and then another, drying a day in warm weather between. Then baked it up hard as glass in three heats, as it should. It was so shiny perfect I had to knock back some of the gloss so it would suit the rest of the plane, which wasn't squeaky prissy mint after all. It all wants to go together in the end. It suits me well enough. My "perfect" refinish is only slightly embellishing a (now) good condition plane anyway, and my efforts might elevate the selling price only a few dollars at most. If the wussards can't even take that..............:-) hee heeheheh The thing we all desperately hate to see, is poor finish work. Sloppy, hurried, uncared about, deep grinding, drippy, unskilled 5 minute work. Blech! With effort and patience anyone can do a servicible job, and pretty quick, an outstanding job. If you are going to do it, have a care about it. Start with total junk you can throw away if you do run yourself into a terminal hole, (not likely, but it's possible I guess) and work up, is my advice. This is always my advice. Resist the urge to plunge into the center stage spotlight of anything, first off. Never start the job at the front door, for instance, start at the back. Work your way round, learning as you go. yours Scott Scott Grandstaff Box 409 Happy Camp, Ca 96039 http://www.snowcrest.net/kitty/sgrandstaff/ http://www.snowcrest.net/kitty/hpages/index.html ------- [sherline] A Tip: Inexpensive Scratch Cover for worn Anodized Finish on Sherli Posted by: "lhbakeland" digitaltorquex~xxaol.com Date: Thu Jul 9, 2009 1:15 pm ((PDT)) I recently received a few tools that I ordered from Sherline. One tool was not properly deburred before it was black anodized. Removing the burrs destroyed the black anodized finish and exposed the aluminum. I could return it to the factory, but that's such a hassle. Anyway, scratches would definitely appear later anyway from use. I thought of painting it with a Sharpie marker or some other touch up paint. My final decision was to use black finger nail polish. A bottle for many many repairs cost only a couple of dollars at Walgreens. I guess that this stuff is tougher than regular markers or paint, short of stripping the aluminum and reanodizing. Leo ------- Re: A Tip: Inexpensive Scratch Cover for worn Anodized Finish on Sh Posted by: "a3sigma" dcclark111x~xxcomcast.net Date: Sat Jul 11, 2009 8:21 am ((PDT)) Good idea. I particularly recommend "Hard As Nails" brand. Used it for years as torque striping and touch up paint. Also instead of varnish to tack threads and bushings. Remove with acetone. DC David Clark in Southern Maryland, USA ------- Re: AMMCo restoration continues [Metal_Shapers] Posted by: "in2steam" in2steamx~xxwi.rr.com Date: Sat Oct 24, 2009 4:46 am ((PDT)) William Abernathy wrote: > I've stripped off all of the rust, and almost all of the paint (a few stubborn patches remain...) and will be looking soon at repainting my AMMCo shaper (after brazing out one crack and dealing with the jackshaft bushing issue...). I plan on using brake cleaner to strip off the WD-40 and LPS anti-rust goo currently on the surfaces of the castings. Once I'm done with that, I will need a good method for masking running surfaces, and I will also need good paint. Having just watched the remnants of a metallic green rattle-can job dissolve in the electrolyte, I would like something a little more robust for the final. So...I would like you guys to share your experiences with repainting, specifically masking and painting. Thanks, --William A. < William: I have now three full paint jobs (and two strips) under my belt on several of my home machines not to mention countless jobs at work. My personal experience is that stripping the old paint off is best accomplished with abrasive blasting, much has been written on this, if you have the ability to do that way I would recommend it. In the course of doing that method you will need to be ready to paint right after finishing it or you are likely to form some rust. If you use very coarse media machined surfaces should be protected with tape, and I would wear gloves while handling the items after blasting. I have not tried it myself but soda blasting is supposed to be the best for clean up and not very harsh to machine surfaces. I used this method to clean off parts of my Rockwell mill, most of those parts were oil soaked and had worn paint. I used silicone bead (milder) there is no need to mask off areas and that lead to my painting choice below. The bead blasting pretty much takes a multi step process down to one it gets ride of paint, rust, and gunk. It's very messy if done inside without a cabinet, even then it can get messy. The parts I did do this way only took a couple minutes but I was lacking the right kind of compressor to do bigger parts like my lathe or shaper which I stripped 100%. The method I used with marginal success on my atlas shaper was to manual strip all the goo with a scraper (and lots of disposable gloves), then used a solvent which is based on M.E.K. which is not available to the public used for screen printing. It is mostly M.E.K. and denatured alcohol and either will do the same by themselves. I put every thing in a closed 5 gallon bucket most of the parts were soaked, manually striped and a similar mixture was used to wash off as the grease and oil would still stick from the concentrated nature of goo in the first wash. I had to baste the main casting carefully as I did not remove the bearings, it took longer then soaking but the results were about the same. It is a more invasive method and you need to make sure that nothing will melt, and all the bearings effected will need to be re lubed or replaced. It is also nasty stuff to work with but it does cut through older lead based paints, and newer paints it cuts through in a matter of minutes. It's very flammable, very volatile, and will pretty much kill your skin if it is allowed to touch it and you are not used to it. If any parts had any film on them after that I used brake cleaner, but that was expensive in the end, I found the plain denatured alcohol better on my lathe. In the end the bottom of the first 5 gallon bucket had about 6 inches of goo chips and paint, which is hard to dispose of as it melts the normal plastic garbage bags. The method I used on my Logan 9" lathe was to use an orange based paint stripper, it was of moderate success also. It did not cut the base layer lead paint like the above mixture as well. But it was able to be used indoors more, and it is more controlled application so as not to get it into the bearings and etc. It was messier, and took about twice as long, but I think the results in the end were slightly better and it was more then likely cheaper. For de-greasing of parts I used the original solution, which cuts most of the gunk, but I also used an ultra sonic cleaner with dawn soap and hot water to clean things that otherwise hard or impossible to clean. It works well on stubborn deposits, like those on lead screw half nuts. Cleanup for this method was the easier then above but not as with bead blasting. Painting I used two methods, of which I now prefer the latter. On my atlas shaper and logan 9" lathe I used Rust-oleum professional primer and paint with at least two coats, sometimes 3 or 4 depending upon the part. Between coats on the shaper I let the paint dry the 48 hours that the instructions recommend, on the lathe I did it within 15 minutes also on the instructions. Of the two I prefer the lathe's finish and the paint seems more durable and less likely to chip. Neither one is as durable as the original finish though and that lead me to try something different on the Rockwell mill. On my Rockwell mill I had a good finish over about 80% of the machine, it was in nearly unused condition and did not warrant a complete strip after I went through and cleaned it up. I took the paint sample to my local ACE and had them color match it to an oil base, I bought a quart which I then spread on over the original paint. On the parts which I did strip down I could not see a difference. No brush strokes are visible, and the key to that is I used a cheap foam brush which did not streak like a normal brush will. It went on much thicker and you could cover spots that would show up if you tried to spray bomb it. Overall time was nearly 100% less than what I spent doing either the lathe or the shaper. I spent an afternoon stripping and painting the mill, I spent nearly a week working on the other two each (just painting and masking). On spots that had noticeable oil or grease I cleaned with denatured alcohol which softened the paint a little but did cut through the oil. Since you have great control on a brush I did not mask anything, the very few spots I did hit a machine surface(which was freshly oiled) I wiped with a cloth and alcohol. Overall I will use hand painting from now on, the finish is great and more durable as it is thicker. I also think it's quicker then doing it with spray bombs when considering masking. I might consider a primer if I did a lot of stripping but thus far the oil based has stuck to the parts I did strip without it. If you choose to spray I can say one trick I learned is to use vasoline on spots that are hard to tape. It makes a great mask, and once the paint is dry it comes off easily. I used painters tape on the ways of my shaper and lathe, but I still had over spray and under cutting. With the vasoline the paint sticks to the top of the vasoline and wipes away once dryed. That speeds things up considerably where taping would have been miserable. Also if you tape you need to remove right after you spray, or it will rip the pain;t the vasoline does not have that issue for the most part. Do not use heat lamps with the vasoline, or do it on days when it will melt -- for obvious reasons. I put it on pretty thick too, like I did my change gears for the lathe I packed it into the bore of the gear. There are better methods to spray paint then just using cans, but that gets expensive although the results are great looking if done right. Also its been my experience that if you plan on making this a usable machine that you should paint it a lighter color; it makes seeing things on it much easier; my preference is an off-white like my rockwell or safety green for my 9" lathe. The green was inspired by a myford lathe that a friend has; it makes seeing into the lathe easier and the light reflects instead of absorbing it. I have a logan 10" lathe, atlas MFB, and a delta band saw to paint yet and they will all have lighter paint coats. Since I have a lot of my rockwell color left I will use that first, I only spent $13 on that can vs $40 on each of the others. I hope that I was not too long winded, good luck and happy chips. Chris ------- Re: AMMCo restoration continues Posted by: "revgo1898" revgo1898x~xxyahoo.com Date: Fri Oct 23, 2009 10:52 am ((PDT)) In Metal_Shapersx~xxyahoogroups.com, "debrular2004" wrote: > I have Simple Green with great success. It is easier to use and just as effective. Cheaper too. John < Check this story re: welding after using brake cleaner. http://www.brewracingframes.com/id75.htm ------- NOTE TO FILE: The story tells of severe health damage that narrowly missed being fatal after using brake cleaner and then welding a part that was still wet. The gas given off caused severe injury. Following is a link to a website detailing one person's terrible health experience with brake cleaner. After reading this, I'm not going to use brake cleaner or any other product containing tetrachloroethylene, also called tetrachloroethene, ever again. There are safer products, but in truth there are very few totally safe products. Always read the product label before use, and if in any doubt about the instructions or safety warnings, look up the ingredients on the internet; you can also ask any manufacturer for the product's MSDS -- Material Safety Data Sheet -- which they must provide. http://www.brewracingframes.com/id75.htm ------- Re: New photos of down to bare metal lathe refurbish [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: "db45acp" db45acpx~xxyahoo.com Date: Sun Jan 24, 2010 8:52 am ((PST)) "Barry" wrote: > I posted some photos of my lathe refurbish in the folder named > Barry Young. Let me know what you think. Barry Barry: Very nice photos of the rebuild. Absolutely beautiful. What paint did you use to refinish it? Did you use a spray or brush on? I'm in the middle of restoring my 101-07403 myself. It is the original gray color, but I'm entertaining the idea of changing it to that, or a similar blue. Depends on what I can find. Congratulations on a beautiful job there. Dan ------- Re: New photos of down to bare metal lathe refurbish Posted by: "jonesad99" andy.j1sx~xxsbcglobal.net Date: Sun Jan 24, 2010 12:27 pm ((PST)) Very nice job! I've just started to restore my grandfather's 07403 myself. It is the original Craftsman blue (darker than Barry's), and I'm looking for something as close as possible, available in rattle cans. The areas that were protected from fading and wear are almost a royal blue shade. Anyone have a lead on a close match? Also, there are pieces that appear to have never been painted (the head- end lead screw bracket, the change gear "spider" bracket, and the back gear shaft brackets), yet are not rusted like some areas where paint has worn off. These also appear to be unpainted (or at least not in the same paint as the rest of the lathe) in the photos on lathes.co.uk. Anyone have an idea of what their finish would have been, if any? Andy ------- Re: New photos of down to bare metal lathe refurbish Posted by: "Barry Young" barryjyoungx~xxyahoo.com Date: Sun Jan 24, 2010 5:05 pm ((PST)) Hi Dan: I chose that color because I saw a Craftsman painted that color and I felt it was a little cheerier than the standard Gray that most machines are painted. It is Rustoleum #7727 Royal Blue over Rustoleum (rust red) primer. This combination makes a very hard coating that is extremely resistant to wear and scratches IF you let it cure properly which takes about a month. These paints are in spray cans. I know that using non standard paint lowered the value but I am keeping this lathe forever so it does not matter to me. Each part was wire brushed to remove all traces of the former paint (this machine was originally painted Exorcist puke green by Atlas), then the parts were washed with soap and hot water. Right before priming the parts were masked with painters tape then washed with MEK on paper towels. After completely drying, the first side of the part was primed. Two days later the part was turned over and primed on the second side. Two days later the part was sprayed with the first color coat. Two days later the part was flipped and sprayed with color again. Two days after that the second color coat was applied and two days later the part was flipped for its last color coat. A week after the second color coat, the part was very carefully installed being extra careful to not scratch the paint which was still soft. After sitting for a month, the finish is hard and smooth. So each part took about 8 days to paint and 5 weeks to cure. Some parts had three sides to paint and took longer. Thanks for your kind words. Barry Young ------- Re: New photos of down to bare metal lathe refurbish Posted by: "Christopher Reynolds" duke6901x~xxyahoo.com Date: Sun Jan 24, 2010 2:40 pm ((PST)) Duplicolor Ford blue engine enamal is a very close match. Note: the cap is not representative of the dried color. After curing time, this paint is pretty durable and oil resistant. You may also concider a light cote of etch primer (really helps paint stick and rust proof). Good Luck! ------- Paint match [myfordlathes] Posted by: "Ken Strauss" ken.straussx~xxgmail.com kstrauss7 Date: Mon Aug 30, 2010 11:06 am ((PDT)) I understand that the Myford green is "RAL 52611" or one can get custom mixed paint colours from automotive paint suppliers. I just want to paint some Myford accessories and would prefer to purchase a spray can that is "close" without spending a lot of time or money. Is there some common North American car/truck model that is a reasonable match to the Myford green? ------- Re: Paint match Posted by: "Rich Dean" toolman8x~xxcopper.net cmsteamer Date: Mon Aug 30, 2010 12:17 pm ((PDT)) Ken, I used to have a green S7. I have a Chevy C10 1980 Van with that pea green (original factory). I repainted the van and sold the Lathe. My keeper S7 is gray. What's that tell you? RichD ------- Re: Paint match Posted by: "jwgott1" jwgx~xxleonard.com jwgott1 Date: Mon Aug 30, 2010 1:48 pm ((PDT)) I was able to get an excellent color match at Duron/Sherwin Williams. I took my tailstock into the store and they matched the color off of that. A quart of DuraClad was only $15.00. Go to Home Depot or Lowes and get yourself a small sprayer. Thin the paint with some VM&P naptha and you're on your way. If you don't want to go the sprayer route because of expense, just go ahead and brush thin coats. DuraClad has very good self settling properties. Jonathan Bethesda, MD USA ------- Re: [inbox] Re: [atlas_craftsman] Cleaning up graduation markings Posted by: "Russ Kepler" russx~xxkepler-eng.com Date: Sun Aug 22, 2010 8:39 am ((PDT)) On Wednesday 19 November 2008 21:38:33 catboat15x~xxaol.com wrote: >The markings are "Indented" on the Atlas dials, so coating the dials with white enamel and wiping off the paint on the plain part should leave white markings on your brown dials. We used to spray paint ID tags with a black enamel and then rub the tag face down on paper towels which left black markings on aluminum ID tags. Or as some one suggested strips of abrasive to remove the crud, but I would start with something like 400 grit paper to leave shinny background and brown numbers and marks. < The "Lacquer-Stik" marker stuff works pretty well - clean well, rub on, wipe excess off and the stuff in the crack generally stays. I've used it on both firearms and lathe markings and it has a pretty good life even in those environments. ------- [atlas_craftsman] Re: Paint Colors - ID-ing, and Sources for Original Atlas-Craftsman Posted by: "Keith Mc" actix~xxPROVIDE.NET Date: Mon Nov 22, 2010 2:30 pm ((PST)) audi200qpilot wrote: > Keith, if you take a painted part from the machine you are trying to match to a well equipped paint department, they have an optical machine that reads the color directly from your sample part, and can then mix a quart for you - about $12. [...] Larry < Tried that route already, with several of the local hardware stores. They each had two problems: 1) Most of my local places can only create thick "house paint", not something akin to a fine finish spray auto metal paint. (I am shooting for an original "metal finish", not a "wall finish"...) 2) Their scanner(s) often have a hard time picking up the color, due to either: trying to find a clean sample, not being able to see on the curve well, or the paint's darkness. (It's a curved leg I am trying to scan for matching. Not a lot of nice flat surfaces that still have paint on it.) That is why I was trying to find a good ref. I just saw the reply about S/W paint formulation on the Wiki. I'll try that one next. Thanks! Keith Mc. ------- Re: Paint Colors - ID-ing, and Sources for Original Atlas-Craftsman Posted by: "James Walther" indianfourriderx~xxyahoo.com Date: Mon Nov 22, 2010 2:41 pm ((PST)) If you know anybody in a body shop they shold be able to match your color either from their master book or by eye, if they're halfway good at it. Close enough, anyway. After all, it's an old machine tool, not a vintage Bugatti... ------- Re: Paint Colors - ID-ing, and Sources for Original Atlas-Craftsman Posted by: "Chuck Rice" Chuckx~xxWildRice.com Date: Tue Nov 23, 2010 5:24 am ((PST)) Even then, you may not get the same color. The oil-based paints used darken/yellow with age, so the color you see now is not the color that was used when the machine was manufactured. Chuck ------- Painting the 618 [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: "Hey You!!" paulandreasenx~xxgmail.com Date: Tue Nov 23, 2010 12:28 am ((PST)) I am not sure how much use this will be, but I decided after seeing so many beautiful lathe pictures I would at least paint over the varnish and stains while rebuilding my 618. I looked for info about paint, but got several different answers. (Wow, THAT never happened before!) I finally went to the local ACE hardware and used their new color matching system. I got a quart of oil-based paint that is just right. It does not match exactly what is on the lathe, after its having almost 70 years of accumulations on the surface, but does exactly match the paint on a motor mount I found that was broken but still in original oil paper wrappings! A local hardware store went out of business about 20 years ago, but had been IN business for 150 years, and had a few parts from when they sold Atlas products. One of the family that owned it heard of my quest for Atlas components and found it for me. (Here in rural Kalifornia, the local hardware stores carried everything from groceries to guns. When they closed, one old guy about 70ish, said he didn't know what he would do, HE HAD ONLY SHOPPED IN THAT ONE STORE (for everything) HIS ENTIRE LIFE! Anyway, the paint mixture is as follows: (ACE figures are from mix ticket) Base paint: #Deep 330 qt size Shots & Half shots are what ACE calls each measured "squirt" Tint "B": 1 ounce, 3 "shots", 1 "half-shot" Tint "C": 12 "shots" Tint "D": 2 "shots" It is a lighter gray, especially when applied. When dry, it is lighter than the original on the lathe, but a perfect match on the new/old, un-weathered, part! Hope this helps someone. Unfortunately my daughters do NOT usually allow me to paint anything but my stuff because I suck at it. I used a brush, and will NOT be showing pictures, but I do glow green when I see some of you folks' lathes!! Especially someone's metallic blue one! Do NOT give me your address unless you have armed guards 24/7! Ha! Paul in Kalifornia ------- What Black finish on steel parts? [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: "Jake" jakearussellx~xxyahoo.com Date: Sun May 15, 2011 9:55 am ((PDT)) It seems like most of the original steel parts (including the fasteners) on my Atlas-produced craftsman bandsaw have a really durable, hard black finish on them. It is very resistant to getting scratched, or chipped off. It is also somewhat glossy, sometimes with a "brushed" kind of grain pattern. Does anyone know what this finish is? It is something like gun bluing? ------- Re: What Black finish on steel parts? Posted by: "Charlie Gallo" Charliex~xxTheGallos.com Date: Sun May 15, 2011 10:03 am ((PDT)) That's basically what it is ------- Re: What Black finish on steel parts? Posted by: "Russ Kepler" russx~xxkepler-eng.com Date: Sun May 15, 2011 10:22 am ((PDT)) On 15 May 2011, Ben D'Avanza wrote: > Parkerizing? > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parkerizing Nope, just a black oxide. Parkerizing boils in phosphoric acid to convert oxides to phosphates and to create microscopic pits to hold oil; black oxide 'boils' the part in sodium hydroxide and some nitrates/nitrides (at an elevated temperature) to oxidize the steel surface to a black oxide (Fe2O2 rather than red rust which is Fe2O3). Since the steel is 'rusted' already, red rust has trouble getting started. There are other blacking processes that create a black that isn't as durable (selenium processes come to mind) and others that can create a more durable black (PVD titanium carbonitride can be darkish, aluminum titanium nitride can come out almost black, all are really hard). ------- Re: What Black finish on steel parts? Posted by: "Clive" cliveadams23x~xxaol.com Date: Sun May 15, 2011 11:01 am ((PDT)) When I was restoring my Myford I cleaned the nuts and bolts back to bright metal, sprayed them with white vinegar and left them a couple of days to rust, then brushed them with a rust killer (Chesterton's brand in the UK). This left them a nice even black, after which I coated them with oil and fitted them. They still look as good two years on! Clive ------- Re: What Black finish on steel parts? Posted by: "Clive" cliveadams23x~xxaol.com Date: Sun May 15, 2011 11:13 am ((PDT)) Just looking through 'Machinery's Shop Receipts and found the following advice: "A good black finish can be produced on steel by the following method: Prepare a saturated solution of caustic soda and add a small amount of saltpeter, say a small handful to a five gallon solution. Boil the solution for a short time and allow it to cool overnight. The clear liquid only should be used, and this should be brought to the boiling point on an iron kettle. The articles should be wired as for plating and immersed in the blackening solution. The articles will take on a gray color at once with black underneath and should be left in the solution until the gray disappears and a beautiful black remains. Rinse the articles in cold water, dry in sawdust and oil with linseed oil, and wipe clean. The resulting finish will be a fine blue-black that wears well, and is suitable for shears, razors etc." Sounds good to me . . . ;-) ------- Re: What Black finish on steel parts? Posted by: "toolmaker48" toolmaker48x~xxyahoo.com Date: Sun May 15, 2011 1:17 pm ((PDT)) Hi Clive, I've tried that recipe and it works very well. It's also known as a "caustic black" finish. Another eco-friendly method involves using tannic acid. Directions can be found on the internet. Try the Canadian Conservation Institute. Robert ------- Re: What Black finish on steel parts? Posted by: "jerdalx~xxsbcglobal.net" jtiers Date: Sun May 15, 2011 2:51 pm ((PDT)) I have done the tannic acid process, and have used a lot of black oxide parts. In either case, the parts must be oil coated, and that coating must be retained. Otherwise both types of coating will rust. The black oxide is not particularly stable, but red rust is very stable. Consequently rusting generally proceeds until the stable form is obtained. JT ------- Re: What Black finish on steel parts? Posted by: "JHWorks" jh.worksx~xxq.com Date: Mon May 16, 2011 7:49 am ((PDT)) > Parkerizing? > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parkerizing Parkerizing is a crystal. Either Zinc, Iron or Manganese Phosphate. Under a microscope it looks like a wad of toothpicks. These voids between the crystal is where the oil is retained. Iron phosphate is the least durable and generally considered unacceptable. Zinc phosphate was extensively used prior to the 60's and is gray/green in color. Manganese phosphate is black, thicker and far more durable. This is the standard surface finish for steel parts on military small arms today. ------- NOTE TO FILE: This conversation now wanders into the territory of what lubricant/protectant should be used on the metal after a finish (if any) has been applied. Naturally that depends on where the metal is located (inside or out) and whether it will contact wood. Nothing with silicone should ever be used on metals that will contact wood, as it is nearly impossible to remove silicone contamination from wood (no matter what any miracle wood finishing product or cleaner-solvent says, but that is another subject altogether). For more information on suitable lubricants for various needs, see the Lubricants General file here. ------- Re: What Black finish on steel parts? Posted by: "Glenn N" sleykinx~xxcharter.net Date: Tue May 17, 2011 9:04 am ((PDT)) > So, what type of protective coating would be good to use I use CLP the name stands for Cleaner Lubricant Protectant. It leaves a wax behind when it dries. I hose it on the stuff I want to protect and let it sit for a min or two and then wipe it down to get the excess off. It leaves a really nice looking piece of iron that is resistant to rust and won't transfer to wood. It will eventually turn cast iron almost black as my tablesaw top has become. Makes things slide well too. Best applied when the metal is warm, like sitting in the sun. Military has used it for many years on big guns etc. YMMV Glenn ------- Re: What Black finish on steel parts? Posted by: "Rexarino" rexarinox~xxgmail.com Date: Tue May 17, 2011 9:59 am ((PDT)) I use paraffin wax on cast iron and aluminum tables, it lets wood slide easily and removes from the table or work with a variety of solvents. For long term protection, LPS 3 is supposed to be good, but it's stickier than cosmoline and harder to remove, definitely not for working surfaces. Rex ------- Re: What Black finish on steel parts? Posted by: "Russ Kepler" russx~xxkepler-eng.com Date: Tue May 17, 2011 11:50 am ((PDT)) I have friends that use paste wax made for furniture (Johnson's?) to protect their table saw tables. I tried some on a drill press table and it seemed to do the trick. I suspect that a lot of waxes would be soluble in oils so it's not a solution for metalworking tools subjected to oiling. ------- Re: What Black finish on steel parts? Posted by: "toolmaker48" toolmaker48x~xxyahoo.com Date: Tue May 17, 2011 12:49 pm ((PDT)) Hi. Keep in mind, no matter what you use as a rust protectant, it's going to wear off in use. It'll need to be re-applied frequently. Linseed oil is great for anything outside such as a 'wrought iron' mailbox post. Paste wax is good for indoor storage. I use it for my precision gages that don't see frequent use, such as my 24" master squares. Just needs to be applied liberally. Best compromise between the two is a product called Slide 'No-Rust'. It's designed for long term storage of steel inside and out. I've used it on the underside of my truck up here in the salt-laden northeast, and it works well. Robert ------- Re: What Black finish on steel parts? Posted by: "Russ Kepler" russx~xxkepler-eng.com Date: Thu May 19, 2011 6:15 am ((PDT)) On Thursday 19 May 2011 01:23:03 Rexarino wrote: > I've also used carnauba wax on the work tables, is Butchers a > carnauba wax? It has some but the majority is apparently paraffin wax. Johnson's Paste Wax is a carnauba and paraffin wax as well in what seems to be the same percentages (or fits in the same ranges from the MSDS). Most hard wax furniture polishes are going to be similar, but I think I'd be careful in using anything with a beeswax as it likely has too low a melting point for a cast iron table (but looks very nice on wood). ------- Re: 618 Atlas Emblem [atlas618lathe] Posted by: "BRIAN GLACKIN" glackin.brianx~xxgmail.com Date: Fri Aug 5, 2011 9:38 am ((PDT)) On Thu, Aug 4, 2011, Hey You!! wrote: > I have just finished a year long rehab of a 1941 618. It is great, > but I need a decent Atlas metal emblem that goes on the front of the > headstock. Has anyone got an extra for sale? I haunt ebay but have > missed the few there because I couldn't match the price. > thanks Paul Andreasen Lompoc, CA You can create your own if either you have the original artwork or can find the artwork. Take a look at this site (it's the wiki for Vintagemachinery.org) and look at section 2.4 on decals. http://wiki.owwm.com/MainPage.ashx ------- NOTE TO FILE: The above website is ostensibly for restoring old woodworking machinery, but also has many how-to articles that will be useful to metalworkers and any hobbyists with workshops. ------- 101.07403 Paint Color [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: "jsegal42" jasegalx~xxsuddenlink.net Date: Tue Oct 25, 2011 12:43 pm ((PDT)) OK, I did a bunch of searching first, but I can't find what I need. My new-to-me Craftsman 12" lathe has been enjoyed by a bunch of other people over the years and its (original) paint needs work. As I continue its clean up, I'd like to repaint some parts. Can anyone point me to easily available (Home Depot, Lowes or online), oil/solvent resistant spray and/or brush paint that matches the gray color of the lathe? Thanks, Jack ------- Re: 101.07403 Paint Color Posted by: "Harry Keith" sailor11767x~xxgmail.com Date: Tue Oct 25, 2011 12:49 pm ((PDT)) I needed paint for my ancient Vovlo engine for my boat, and didn't like the overpriced boat store sprays. I took a piece to Sherwin Williams, and they matched it in their "all surface oil enamel" which I have been VERY happy with. It's a brush product, but I really think they are a better paint anyway. The parts I've painted have been running a year now, no issues with the heat, spilled oil, spilled antifreeze, etc. Harry ------- Re: 101.07403 Paint Color Posted by: "jsegal42" jasegalx~xxsuddenlink.net Date: Tue Oct 25, 2011 1:20 pm ((PDT)) I was thinking about doing a paint match at Sherwin Williams or similar paint supplier, I've done that in the past, but was wondering if there's something close off-the-shelf. Jack ------- Re: 101.07403 Paint Color Posted by: "Mike Coleman" paucox~xxcomcast.net Date: Tue Oct 25, 2011 4:39 pm ((PDT)) I do not know the age of your lathe, but earlier models were usually painted a very deep, charcoal gray. Later models, 1960's and newer, were painted a much lighter gray, with a very slight greenish hue. If it is the later color gray, I've found that Fixall 1315 Gray is a perfect match. Only difference I can detect is that the new paint has a slightly higher gloss, which is easily corrected with some very fine steel wool. Many independent hardware stores carry Fixall, and if you google it, it's available from many sources on the net. Good luck !! Mike Coleman ------- Re: 101.07403 Paint Color Posted by: "Harry Keith" sailor11767x~xxgmail.com Date: Tue Oct 25, 2011 5:25 pm ((PDT)) What made me such a strong supporter of Sherwin Williams is the fact that they could color match in OIL. Most every other store only does latex these days, and while "it's not your father's latex" it still isn't up to the really tough jobs yet. My quart was pricey (in the 20's, I think maybe even over $30) but I'm a happy customer. The color match, considering I gave them an engine part to start from, was really quite good. Harry ------- Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2011 15:14:44 -0800 From: scott grandstaff Subject: [OldTools] Cold Blue Here is a story about cold blue. Please pardon the electric tools involved, but metalworking is a different ballgame than woodworking. > Well I love chrome. Especially the really thick old school chrome > that you get to really dig into with a buffing wheel and bring it up > bright mirror hot!! Unfortunately much of the new stuff is micro > thin and most of the old stuff is worn. There isn't much way to > restore chrome at home. You can buy small plating equipment outfits > from one or two companies. But the procedure is long and expensive. > It takes up a lot of room too with the several tanks and multiple > plating to get chrome. You have to plate copper, and then nickel, and > finally chrome. > > Professional plating shops don't want to know you for a 2 dollar > pair of pliers. I mean they'd be glad to have the job but unless you > can bribe your way in with cases of beer or something, it won't be > cheap to restore old tools. Otherwise everybody would do it. > > So for the practical cheapskate, an oxide finish is what it comes > down to. Real gun blue is another of those things you can't really > do casually at home. It takes several tanks and temperature control > and cyanide and salpeter and time. Yadda yadda. But there are a > few cold oxidize chemicals sold everywhere. Glass shops sell patina > and every gun and sporting goods sells cold blue. I secretly think > they are all the same myself. Neither does true blue or true black. > Dark gray is what its known as. > http://users.snowcrest.net/kitty/sgrandstaff/images/house/pliersa5.jpg > Here are today's candidates. Worn and pitted and generally ruined for > pretty. But still great tools, just haggard looking. > http://users.snowcrest.net/kitty/sgrandstaff/images/house/pliersa1.jpg Well first you have to get the remains of the old plating off and prep the surface by grinding out the worst of the pitts. I mean, if this is a fine flintlock pistol you are going to want to hand rub every bit out to 2000 grit but hey these are garage tools. A decent surface is good enough and probably smoother than inexpensive plating jobs anyway. Namely satin plating, which just means, "we didn't polish the tool before plating. A quick sand blast was good enough. " I use different sanding techniques depending on the project. A belt sander is essential. http://users.snowcrest.net/kitty/sgrandstaff/images/house/pliersa6.jpg Plus my other favorite, a sanding mop. These are killer but they do cost money. But one time I got a score of some industrial belts about 1/2 mile long. It weird but super long belts sometimes come around much cheaper than anything anyone at home has a machine for. So I cut them up and make my own mops. Not as good as Klingspor mops, but then they are free so beat that! http://users.snowcrest.net/kitty/sgrandstaff/images/house/pliersa7.jpg I also use small rubber backing disks and sanding disks a lot. But hey everyone knows what a sanding disk looks like, no need for pictures. My favorite are the vintage soft natural rubber pads. The modern vinyl are totally worthless if you ask me. A hand drill turning at 3000 is best but use the speed control a lot too. You have to slow down for the curves! When you get them clean, put on your rubber gloves. You don't want finger oil to mess with you!! Scrub the tools down with acetone or other degreaser (I expect brake cleaner would work but never tried it) and dry. Then take a little scrap of clean cloth and saturate it with oxidizer. Wipe down the tool. It will color instantly but keeps getting darker for about a minute. Do not go over a minute though! After a minute it starts getting lighter again, and it'll fade to nothing unless you do something. So you wash it off with clean water to set the color. This locks it in. Unless you were born under a good sign (sober up), your first try won't be smooth and even as you'd like. So you dry the tool and go over it, or at least the bad parts, with degreased steel wool. If you can't find degreased (most of it has oil on it) wool, use a new clean 3-M pad. Wipe it down and apply your oxidizer again. Hey, you didn't screw up and take the gloves off did you?? Don't forget to rinse off with water within a minute, after each try with the "blue". Depending on your own personal level of OCD, ahem, a couple/three cycles will get you "close enough for the girls I know". When you are satisfied, dry them well and wipe dow with oil to permanantly set them. They look good, they wear well, and it's relatively fast and cheap. I'm happy. Oh sometimes parts you take off like screws, aren't so bad you can't just polish out and save that. Other times you need to grind and blue. http://users.snowcrest.net/kitty/sgrandstaff/images/house/pliersa2.jpg I have been known to provide my own grips on smooth handle pliers with a thin Dremel cutoff disk, real quick. http://users.snowcrest.net/kitty/sgrandstaff/images/house/pliersa3.jpg http://users.snowcrest.net/kitty/sgrandstaff/images/house/pliersa4.jpg Beats a 2by4 upside the head. yours Scott Scott Grandstaff Box 409 Happy Camp, Ca 96039 http://www.snowcrest.net/kitty/sgrandstaff/ http://www.snowcrest.net/kitty/hpages/index.html ------- NOTE TO FILE: Following is a link to a website detailing one person's terrible health experience with brake cleaner. After reading this, I'm not going to use brake cleaner or any other product containing tetrachloroethylene, also called tetrachloroethene, ever again. There are safer products, but in truth there are very few totally safe products. Always read the product label before use, and if in any doubt about the instructions or safety warnings, look up the ingredients on the internet; you can also ask any manufacturer for the product's MSDS -- Material Safety Data Sheet -- which they must provide. http://www.brewracingframes.com/id75.htm ------- NOTE TO FILE: Scott's description of applying blue will work great. Here are two more tips that may help depending on the project piece. (1) The bluing may activate better if the surface is prewarmed as with a heat gun or SWMBO's hair dryer. Not so hot as would dry out the bluing solution before it does its work, just good and warm. (2) On rounded (convex) surfaces, the finish may be put on more evenly by soaking a strip of soft cloth (like cotton) in the bluing solution and holding the ends in both (rubber-gloved) hands and drawing the cloth back and forth in shoe-shine manner during that critical first minute before rinsing the item off with water. Also note that the term bluing is often spelled blueing in different articles on the web or when referring to some products. ------- [Paint for Myford lathe] Re: ... looking for the right paint [myfordlathes] Posted by: "RRH" mollygeorgiex~xxmac.com Date: Fri Jan 27, 2012 6:27 am ((PST)) "norman_lloyd" wrote: > I am trying to find the best machinery enamel for my Grey ML7. > I am in Canada so need something from here. > Is there any paint you would recommend that I can get here? Norman, I'm in Ontario and have restored two Myfords. In each case they were wrecks and needed a lot of work. When I finally got to repainting them I used ICI's Devguard 4308-0100, which is an alkyd industrial gloss enamel. The colour I chose is grey 4308-0400 Deep and the composition is: BLK 2P4; LFY 0P19+; WHT 1P34. I was down to bare metal and needed to use a strong primer. Again, I went with the ICI dealer's recommendation and used X-I-M White Primer Sealer Bonder 400. I subsequently sold one of the lathes but the paint on the S7 I kept has really been impressive. It's the grey colour that seems to be the closest to the Myford grey and it's tough stuff. Needs good ventilation when applying both it and the primer/bonder. If I were doing it again I would definitely use this. Ramsay ------- Re: ... looking for the right paint Posted by: "Stephen Black" black19650x~xxo2.co.uk Date: Fri Jan 27, 2012 9:33 am ((PST)) On 27 Jan 2012, at 16:44, Ken Strauss wrote: > Is ICI the same as "Dulux"? Do most dealers have the paint or > is this a special order? http://www.international-pc.com/default.aspx ------- Re: ... looking for the right paint Posted by: "Andrew Curl" methuselahx~xxntlworld.com Date: Fri Jan 27, 2012 12:59 pm ((PST)) Dulux is one of ICI's trade names. Andrew UK ------- Re: ... looking for the right paint Posted by: "RRH" mollygeorgiex~xxmac.com Date: Sat Jan 28, 2012 4:42 am ((PST)) "Ken Strauss" wrote: > Is ICI the same as "Dulux"? Do most dealers have the paint or > is this a special order? Hi Ken: It wasn't a special order. I purchased it from the ICI retail/ wholesale paint dealer in Burlington. They have a fairly large wholesale trade; I don't know if it's carried by all ICI dealers. The paint is not Dulux, which is a trade name CIL puts on some of their house paints. Instead, the label on the can says ICI Devoe Coatings and then goes on to detail the information in my previous post. I think the Devoe brand refers to their industrial coatings and, presumably, that's why these coatings are all called Devguard #. One point I didn't make in my earlier post is that I wanted to paint the inside of the bed a lighter colour than the grey and I used the same Devguard 4308 but with a Stowe White colour. The grey needs the tinting I described earlier; the white can be used straight from the can. It's a few years since I bought this but I recall that as paint goes it was pretty expensive...something like $35 per quart. Ramsay ------- Date: Fri, 03 Aug 2012 13:55:45 +0100 From: paul womack Subject: [OldTools] Japanning - again Knowing the fascination of the assembled galooteri with Japanning old planes when performing a full restoration, I offer this recipe, from Cassell's Cyclopedia of Mechanics by Paul N. Hasluck, 1908. "Black Japan for Steel and Iron - The following is a description of the process of making a black japan suitable for dipping small steel and iron articles. Procure Swedish pitch 130lb., asphaltum 5lb., litharge 3lb., black oxide of manganese 1/2lb., burnt Turkey umber 5lb., terebene 1 1/2 gal., boiled linseed oil 6gal., and American turpentine 8 gal. Put the pitch in a copper or any suitable vessel, place it over a fire, and simmer slowly for about 6 hours; this liberates from the pitch all the greasy matter, which passes off as a vapour; this, if not removed, would leave the japan with a dull finish. This operation is one of the chief factors in japan making, and is usually known as sweating the pitch. After the grease has been extracted, the asphaltum is added and thoroughly stirred, following with the burnt umber. In another suitable vessel place the boiled oil and heat to 480 F, then slowly add the litharge and manganese, stirring constantly to prevent the oil from rising and boiling over. The oil should be kept at this heat for about half and hour; this dissolves the litharge and manganese, giving the oil its drying properties. The prepared oil is now poured steadily into the pitch, briskly stirred during the operation. The whole mass is then heated to 480 F. for about one hour; this causes a thorough mixing of the ingredients. The pan is then taken well away from the fire, or, if the pan is a fixture, the fire should be slaked out with wet ashes and the japan allowed to cool down to about 160 F., when the turps is slowly run in by means of a tap placed in the side of the vessel, well stirring during the operation. After the preparation is cold, the terebene is stirred in and the japan placed in tanks to settle for fourteen days, when the clear portion is ready for use. If the japan is too thick, thin down with 3 parts of terebene to 1 part of turpentine. This japan dries with a hard gloss in about eight hours, and may be used for both inside and outside purpose; it is quite durable when exposed to the weather." BugBear ------- Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2012 22:40:20 -0400 From: "Dave Nighswander" Subject: [OldTools] Sacrilege For the patina lovers in the group: Please find a different place to be for a few moments. This won't take long. Continuing on with the saw project --- After disassembling the saw nuts, cleaning and waxing the tote and cleaning and sharpening the blade I've been cleaning the saw nuts on the two D8 and Thumbholes that I have chosen as my victims. The greenish brass tarnish is very tenatious. I've polished them with buffing wheels, very hot and they tend to fly away from your fingers at high speed. Brushed them with toothbrushes and Brasso. Even rubbed them with terry cloth and Copper Glow. (Thanks for the old towels Dear.) The easiest way to strip off the tarnish was lemon juice in a paper cup and a half teaspoon of table salt. The only problem is it tends to strip the zinc out of the alloy leaving a dull copper finish. Back to the buffing wheel. Tonight I tried something in keeping with my saw epiphany of yesterday. I put the shank of a cleaned saw nut in my eggbeater drill, put a drop of Brasso on a towel and used the eggbeater to spin the nut in a circle on the towel. Eureka! The nut shined right up. The chuck gripped the shank lightly enough that there were no marks at all on the nut. Emboldened I tried a tarnished nut and with very little effort that nut cleaned up also. Unfortunately the medallion did not work as well. The outer ring cleaned up and the tips of the embossed design shined up but the tarnish stayed in the center. I'll polish that one in the morning after it sits in a paper cup full of lemon juice and salt. ------- Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2012 19:47:01 -0700 From: James Thompson Subject: Re: [OldTools] Sacrilege I have found that a small brass wire brush, like a toothbrush, works pretty well at getting medallions cleaned up when used with something like Brasso. I get them from Harbor Freight. I just keep on scrubbing until it gets clean. I don't notice any wear from the brass brush. I use acetone for final polish to remove any residue, This will keep the shine on longer. Old military trick for shiny brass. James Thompson, the Old Millrat in Riverside CA ------- Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2012 22:05:14 -0500 From: Thomas Johnson Subject: Re: [OldTools] Sacrilege Hi Dave, FWIW, this is the end use for my electric tothbrushes. After a medallion is clean of oil and dirt, I soak it in brasso for a couple of minutes and start with the toothbrush - it very gently gets the job done pretty quickly without buffing out detail .... I've been pretty happy with the process. Besides, it fits with the "recycle, reduce, reuse " ethic. Tom ------- Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2012 08:34:59 +0100 From: Dave Caroline Subject: Re: [OldTools] Sacrilege Let me shudder and whine a bit, then try to be helpful 1. Dezincification leaves a spongy weak brass. 2. Brasso and any chemical which contains the same active ingredient (ammonia) can migrate along the grain boundaries causing stress corrosion cracking. This can be a very fast process. Mercury will also cause it. 3. Buffing, you lose detail, you get rounded edges, looks like an amateur attacked it, use only on new brass with no detail and it should have that type of polish. I have spent time as a clock maker working on brass clock dials where built in stresses were common. We used an abrasive metal cleaner and softish brushes; the results are amazing but not as fast. Evidence: http://www.collection.archivist.info/searchv13.php?searchv4page=1&se archstr=clock+ashmole While cleaning we noticed this clock had its service history scratched into the brass plate. If we used excessive methods this would be soon lost. And what do we use: https://autosol.com/ This is a metal polish which is a grinding paste really using an oil for suspension of the particles. It may at first look aggressive but is gentle when used with the right type of brush. eg: http://www.rnhorological.co.uk/images/Brushes/IMGA1835T-S360%20RN.jpg For lower quality work a clock cleaning solution in an ultrasonic bath, this gets into the holes quite well; don't forget a rinse bath before drying. Lowest quality is ammonia solution in the cleaning bath. With ultrasonics you don't lose detail and dipping time is a lot lower so is safer than long soaks in non agitated solution. Dave Caroline http://gears.archivist.info/ http://www.collection.archivist.info/searchv13.php?searchv4page=1&se archstr=clock p.s. I forgot to mention where the Autosol is in the sequence of a wet wash. Using a non ammonia (water based) cleaner that will degrease and get the main dirt off in the ultrasonic bath, this softens and loosens the grime so that one can then use the brush and Autosol till clean and bright (some rinsing and wiping to see where you are at). Then two rinse stages (spirit based) (in ultrasonic baths) because the Autosol must all be removed and a wipe dry. Also the journal holes all have to be "pegged out" to make sure no polish is in any bearing surface to grind the clock away. ------- Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2012 08:13:16 -0400 From: Erik von Sneidern Subject: Re: [OldTools] Sacrilege Shiny brass on a 100-year-old tool is like white porcelain teeth on a sun-weathered garden troll. It doesn't match. I prefer to rub some spit over the medallion (or label screw) with my thumb so I can read it and call it a day. Erik von Sneidern www.disstonianinstitute.com ------- Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2012 07:51:14 -0700 From: "Adam R. Maxwell" Subject: Re: [OldTools] Sacrilege What Erik said, though I use an old toothbrush to clean them off. It's more important to get the gunk out of the slots in the nuts, at least if you're taking the tote off. Adam ------- Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2012 12:28:31 -0400 From: Anthony Seo Subject: Re: [OldTools] Sacrilege Well at the risk of resurrecting a well beaten expired equine, I like my brass bright. Seems kinda of silly to spend two hours cleaning a saw or a Stanley plane or whatever and to leave the brass crusty looking and it has been my experience that "as found" doesn't command the same respect as properly restored. I'm not saying that there aren't circumstances where it is best to leave well enough alone but those are few and far between. Besides, I keep my brass ones nicely polished just in case I have to wave them around at the world. But that's just me. Tony (Seriously have gear slippage getting moving today) Olde River Hard Goods http://www.oldetoolshop.com TSMusic on Facebook http://www.facebook.com/tonyseomusic ------- Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2012 14:40:09 -0700 From: James Thompson Subject: Re: [OldTools] Sacrilege Yep! When I take the time to de-rust restore and sharpen a saw or other tool I sure do not want to look at cruddy brass. But on something valuable I will be gentle. I think I can distinguish between common and something rare. ------- Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2012 19:01:43 -0400 From: "Dave Nighswander" Subject: Re: [OldTools] Sacrilege Thanks guys I appreciate the input. I'm not working with priceless antiques here. Since I'm still learning to sharpen I'm working my way from the bottom up on the saw food chain. As you can see from my pictures the blade is pretty well pitted and the etch is barely visible. I had to glue up a few cracks and chips on the tote so I'm not concerned about resale as much as learning the techniques of sharpening and what can be done to make it work better. I think that scraping off the green and white paint, (must be a law about those colors on saws somewhere), and scraping the rust off the blade are pretty much a requirement to get the thing to cut without raising blisters or buggering up the kerf. The shiny brass is just a thing I like. As soon as I get into the private stash of priceless art that I'm sure is hidden in the pile of $2.00 practice saws I'll get in touch with the experts and sell them for my retirement. ------- Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2012 17:37:11 -0700 From: James Thompson Subject: Re: [OldTools] Sacrilege 8/28/2012, Ed Minch wrote: >> I feel if it was not polished shiney when it was bought new, why would I polish it? << On Aug 28, 2012, Anthony Seo wrote: > Well I for one am not saying polish it but the brass was bright when it was new. < Yep! When new the brass was bright but not really shiny, and it didn't have nasty green stuff nor a lot of scratches either. Don't see any reason for such crud to remain. I don't know how to remove the crud and scratches without making it shiny. And shiny brass does not forever remain shiny. As we all well know. Again, these are user tools, not stuff to put on a shelf and look at. And I am not going to sell any of them. So I make them look like I want them to look. Which is clean and not cruddy. I am not talking about making stuff look like the junk man sprayed shiny lacquer over the whole tool. Just about making them pleasant to hold and behold. But we have been over this subject any number of times, and no one has changed an opinion yet as far as I can remember. It is always either, "Let it be," or "Let there be light." Everybody gets to make his own decision. Until the patina police arrive. ------- Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2012 23:23:34 -0700 (PDT) From: Thomas Conroy Subject: Re: [OldTools] Sacrilege OK, Dave, we get it: you like shiny and don't want to hear from anyone who doesn't like shiny. I'm not going to argue that one here. But for God's sake don't go about getting shiny in a way that will destroy the thing you want to keep. All that advice about not using Brasso and not using salt and lemon juice and not using power and not buffing a piece of delicate sculpture 3/4" in diameter with a buff bigger than the whole diameter (the terry towel) isn't about preferring dull over shiny; it's about not destroying things. And the bitter part is that, if you look at what you say, you aren't using harsh methods to get a better result; you are using them to get a faster result. If you want to buff a medallion until it is bright all over you will have to get down into the lows without over-abrading the highs. That means you have to work with tiny buffs, and will probably have to work under magnification (at any rate, I would have to; but maybe your eyes are holding up better than mine). If you don't take this approach you will have to polish the highs very heavily until they are worn down enough to let the buff touch the lows and wipe away the compound residues. You may think the first time doesn't reduce the sharpness of the medallion; the memory is good about showing what one wants to see. And you won't think you lose detail the second time you polish, or the third, or the fourth. It's a different matter, though, if you compare high- quality before and after photos. And if you want your saws to have shiny brass you will have to polish them over and over again, even if you use Jim's good suggestion of lacquering the polished brass (I believe that clear fingernail polish used to be one material for this). It makes a difference even on the plain nuts. A highly-polished dead-flat surface will look good, but if the edges of the nut are worn over or the face is worn into hollows and bumps the look is cheap and shoddy. And the only way to get and keep the surfaces flat is to work slowly and meticulously, without power and with a hard, not a soft, carrier for any compound you use. On a dull, oxidized surface you won't see the difference between dead-flat and rounded-bumpy-dipped, but it is immediately apparent to the eye when the surface is brilliantly polished. Lemon juice and salt--- well, what you do with that is to leave the surface contaminated with chloride ions from the salt (sodium chloride). Just like leaving metal in a room with an open container of hydrochloric acid, only a bit slower. This will encourage more rapid formation of tarnish, which will necessitate more frequent polishing. It's a circular process. The lemon juice and salt trick was fine back when a house-proud cook would polish her copper pots and pans every day after using them. It's not a good idea for something you don't plan to polish frequently, or for something with small, precise surfaces. I meet this most often on bookbinders' finishing tools. These often have finely-engraved lines to make fine gold lines on the binding, and they must be brilliantly polished if the gold tooling is to be brilliant. The wear of polishing, even with a gentle compound like jewellers' rouge or without any compound at all, accumulates and is readily apparent on the tools' working faces. With a harsh abrasive like brasso the wear accumulates rapidly-- to say nothing of the fact that harsh abrasives can remove oxidation and leave a pale surface, but they leave the surface covered with micro-scratches and not genuinely polished at all. Listen to what you're being told. It's not about shiny and dull, it's about wear and destruction. Tom Conroy Agitated, in Berkeley. ------- Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2012 07:33:20 -0400 From: Tim Subject: Re: [OldTools] Sacrilege Wow...after all that, it seems that polishing one's nuts is something better done in private. Tim Wondering how much new tarnish will be on nuts in the Gulf Coast after this week. ------- Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2012 05:00:38 -0700 From: scott grandstaff Subject: Re: [OldTools] Sacrilege I have seen a lot of unskilled buffing. Rounded over and munged up, detail obliterated and all the other bad polishing traits are just lack of skill at a times old craft. Everybody starts somewhere. Nobody gets there overnight. Just keep and eye for what you want and assemble your arsenal of weapons. Don't go after your most precious or center stage spotlight projects first. You'll get there. I just wish there was something I could do to preserve copper and bronze polish. When freshly polished, fine copper is a religious experience! There is hardly anything prettier on earth. I have had some bronzes that will take your breath away too! Gasp at how beautiful it is. You could eat it!! But all the "lesser" metals tarnish pretty fast. Silver worst of all. In a few years time your best polish is all gone no matter what you do. The coatings for preserving? All take the magic away. Every one I ever tried. Oh its still red or yellow, but never close to the same as fresh polished. yours Scott Scott Grandstaff Box 409 Happy Camp, Ca 96039 http://www.snowcrest.net/kitty/sgrandstaff/ http://www.snowcrest.net/kitty/hpages/index.html ------- Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2012 13:03:30 +0000 (UTC) From: Subject: [OldTools] Query on sacrilege I have been around the porch for awhile. I have a suspicion that many medallion polishers would recoil from buffing the sides of a pre-war Bedrock plane to shiny new condition. Is there a difference? Help me here. Ron. Kokomo Galoot. Heading for the shop ------- Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2012 09:09:16 -0400 Fom: "Cliff Rohrabacher Esq." Subject: Re: [OldTools] Query on sacrilege I think it all depends on what you are going to do with it. Use it? Then yah ya gotta clean it up. Build a fancy display for it and show it off? Well you might not want to de-patina it. Sell it in a Southby's auction and put the kids through Brown with the proceeds? Ya better leave it alone. ------- Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2012 15:51:21 -0700 From: Brian Rytel Subject: [OldTools] Stanley japanning and some Thursday finds I've perused significant material on (re)japanning and historical documents discussing it. While cleaning an heirloom plane, the japanning began peeling off, something I considered likely to happen. But I noticed two distinct layers, one hugging the dimples of the casting and a thick top coat. http://zengrain.com/main/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/japanning_layers.jpg I'm quite sure this plane has not been refinished at any point before, as it hasn't been used since it was in my great-grandfather's possession (likely the original owner). This is a Type 9 No. 5 for what it's worth. Has anyone else noticed this on their planes or know more about the Stanley japanning process? I managed to get lucky at today's sale, and found my second No. 5 1/2C (groovy wide jack, jeff) in a week! And I thought they were hard to come by. Someone put a lever-cap from another plane on it, but that is easily remedied. Also found was a Siegley smoother, yet another patent run-around. The Siegley too happens to be corrugated. http://zengrain.com/main/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/5_1-2_and_seigley.jpg Brian J.M. Rytel ------- Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2012 16:16:36 -0700 From: James Thompson Subject: Re: [OldTools] Stanley japanning and some Thursday finds One valuable lesson I/we have learned about japanning is that it is just hard black paint, when you get right down to it. Multiple coats of Rustoleum black paint, baked at reasonable temps, cannot be told from japanning, except that old japanning is always less than perfect. Some folks have slightly dulled and done minor damage to their new "japanning" so as to make it look real. Things are not always what they seem, it seems. I actually bought some "real" japanning from a list member several years ago and I was not impressed at all with it. It still sits in its tiny $10 can turning into I don't know what, but it ain't never gonna go on any tool of mine. A quart of Rustoleum and you are good to go forever after. We have had discussions in the past about this. -------- Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2012 16:43:59 -0700 From: Brian Rytel Subject: Re: [OldTools] Stanley japanning and some Thursday finds Very true James. I am going to use one of the common choices to refinish my plane as well. I will say that I've seen enough planes that were refinished with far too thin of coats and they are easy to tell apart. But I've seen some (re?)minty planes that I couldn't pick out reliably from an original. I've heard from several others (including a sewing machine guy) that currently available japanning doesn't meet expectations. I'd put this down to how loose a term it is. Looking at the recipes in the Japanning Handbook: http://www.wkfinetools.com/tMaking/z_reading/1913-Japanning/hand book-Japanning01.asp I realize how much variation there was between processes at different shops. I was interested if the hordes had uncovered any minutia in Stanley history about a two-step process. Out of curiosity rather than application. Brian J.M. Rytel ------- Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2012 10:20:23 +1000 From: Mick Dowling Subject: Re: [OldTools] Stanley japanning and some Thursday finds Brian You have discovered Seinfeld's inspiration for the 'double dipped chip' scene. Mick Dowling Melbourne Member, Hand Tool Preservation Association of Australia Inc. ------- Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2012 22:44:46 -0400 From: Original WWL Subject: Re: [OldTools] Stanley japanning and some Thursday finds Guys: We all have to keep in mind that when these tools were manufactured, durable direct to metal spray finishes were just not invented yet. To set the historical date, this is around the time Henry Ford said you can have a model T in any color so long as it's black! Nitrocellulose lacquers (manufactured by E. I Dupont and used on GM cars and trucks) opened up the color palette for a lot of products (including automobiles) in the late 20's to 30's. So for the time, japanning was the next best thing! I have a low knob, 5 1/2C (Sweetheart Era mark) that I repainted with RUSTOLEUM spray gloss black in a user restoration 20+ years ago. And like James, I think it's every bit as good and superior as japanning. I'll post a picture of that plane tomorrow. Matt Prusik ------- Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2012 07:15:09 -0400 From: Ed Minch Subject: Re: [OldTools] Stanley japanning and some Thursday finds We used to live in a small town at the mouth of the Rappahanock River below Wash DC and above Norfolk VA. About 40 miles north was the town of Reedville VA, known for its fleet of Menhaden boats - these 125 foot factory ships would head out into the bay and net mass quantities of these little fish and squeeze them for their oil. The oil would go into large tanks so the town looked like an oil depot - it was, but it was fish oil. About 2 times a month the wind was just right that we had to leave town for the day. I remember a big deal, perhaps in the mid 90's?, when Rustoleum stopped putting fish oil in their paint and the town was affected. It is still good paint, but it ain't your father's Rustoleum. Ed Minch ------- Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2012 13:52:04 +0100 From: Dave Caroline Subject: Re: [OldTools] Stanley japanning and some Thursday finds I dont know if you have seen the following book: Practical japanning and enameling (baked finishing) W.J. Miskella Finishing Research Labs Inc 1928 Practical finishing series vol III Dave Caroline ------- Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2012 07:05:40 -0700 From: "Adam R. Maxwell" Subject: Re: [OldTools] Stanley japanning and some Thursday finds On Sep 20, 2012, Brian Rytel wrote: > I've perused significant material on (re)japanning and historical > documents discussing it. While cleaning an heirloom plane, the > japanning began peeling off, something I considered likely to happen. > But I noticed two distinct layers, one hugging the dimples of the > casting and a thick top coat. > http://zengrain.com/main/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/japanning_layers.jpg FWIW, I've noticed the same thing on a few of my Stanleys, notably the Type 11 #3 & #6. I'm fairly sure that the #6 at least hasn't been touched up. It's also visible on my #112. Interestingly, the B&G page on the #112 notes that pre-WWI planes had an unusually thin coat of japanning; Patrick's High Plains Drifter-esque suggestion is that some employee was taking it home to paint the town black, but what if they just started putting on a second coat? Adam Port Angeles, WA ------- Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2012 10:35:09 -0400 From: Bill Taggart Subject: Re: [OldTools] Stanley japanning and some Thursday finds I have found Rustoleum black appliance epoxy enamel, when applied in maybe 3-4 coats, each one being baked in a toaster oven, ends up being almost indistinguishable from japanning. I mean, anyone who knows anything about these old tools likely would be able to detect that the plane has been refurbished, but if we're looking for getting it looking good and being protected from rust, I see no reason not to take advantage of the modern products. The manufacturers used japanning because that was state of the art at the time. I have found the appliance epoxy paints in a rattle can to finish well and be very durable. And again, we're talking about very common, user-grade tools here. I don't see it as a crime against humanity to strip off the remaining flakes of old, faded, dirty, chipped japanning, remove the rust, and repaint with modern rust-preventing paints to rehab the tool. It's a tool, not a Renoir. Bill T. ------- Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2012 12:19:55 -0400 From: Anthony Seo Subject: Re: [OldTools] Stanley japanning and some Thursday finds Well being sort of in production mode on these kind of things, I find that good old cheapie (well one step up from the cheapest) japan in a can works as good as anything thing. If it's a sunny and warm day, I let whatever set out and get baked but I don't always have the luxury of the time (and I do mention that the tool was repainted). Almost all of my works of art are of the SW and later vintages and usually have enough other patina that they ain't gonna win any plane of the year awards. I have seen on the older ones, the japanning is fairly thin compared the post SW, pre WWII and later types which probably has to do with improvements in spray technology. FWIW on a quiet Friday... Tony Olde River Hard Goods http://www.oldetoolshop.com TSMusic on Facebook http://www.facebook.com/tonyseomusic ------- NOTE TO FILE: There was an interesting discussion in the atlas_craftsman Yahoo Group that may be useful to owners of other machinery with similar needs. Topics covered included: - method to remove name plates from machinery; - dangers of heat during burn off paint removal or powder coating. Read the text file here called "Atlas Repair or Fitting" starting with: Removing the Name Plates [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: "fester225" fester225x~xxgmail.com Date: Sun Jan 13, 2013 6:32 pm ((PST)) ------- [atlas_craftsman] 10F painting - Do you *really* need to strip the original paint Posted by: "Jim" jflanx~xxtampabay.rr.com Date: Sun Mar 24, 2013 3:27 pm ((PDT)) Just wondering just how important stripping the original factory paint is necessary prior to repainting? My original paint appears fine in regards to adhesion. It needs a bit of cleanup with a d-greaser and wire wheel but I am questioning the removal of ALL the paint. I would think you would get just as nice of a paint job. Of course, I have no real experience with this and may be totally incorrect. Your expert opinions are appreciated. By the way, does anyone know what type of paint Atlas used in the 10F series? I would bet that it is saturated with lead. Thoughts? Thanks Jim ------- Re: 10F painting - Do you *really* need to strip the original paint Posted by: "Guenther Paul" paulguenterx~xxatt.net Date: Sun Mar 24, 2013 4:20 pm ((PDT)) Jim, I would not strip the old paint. Clean it, sand, if you have low spots use a filler. Do you have the paint code to get some mixed? GP ------- Re: 10F painting - Do you *really* need to strip the original paint Posted by: "bg7701xj" billg1277x~xxgmail.com Date: Sun Mar 24, 2013 4:30 pm ((PDT)) Leaded paint? Probably, but I wouldn't know for sure. As for repaint... Prep work is key. If you feel the original paint is "stuck" good still be sure to sand well and feather any chips smooth or it will show through the top coat. Use a good sandable/spot fill primer. Can be found at auto parts store. This will help hide any areas that need blending to original paint. If it then looks smooth and you can't see where the original paint is, then scuff that and then topcoat. A very nice finish can be had with just spray cans with the right prep. I like using engine paint and the Rustoleum spray is pretty nice too. ------- Re: 10F painting - Do you *really* need to strip the original paint Posted by: "William Green" billg1277x~xxgmail.com Date: Sun Mar 24, 2013 4:39 pm ((PDT)) > I would not strip the old paint, clean it, sand, if you have low spots > use a filler. I agree. When I finally restore mine I'm only stripping the smaller pieces in the blast cabinet. The bed will just get sanded. ------- Re: 10F painting - Do you *really* need to strip the original paint Posted by: "Guenther Paul" paulguenterx~xxatt.net Date: Sun Mar 24, 2013 6:04 pm ((PDT)) Here is a color chart you can get from Vintage Machines. The one I had was the real real dark gray. http://wzus1.ask.com/r?t=p&d=us&s=a&c=a&app=a16&dqi=bkt%2520ag%2520ti res&askid=49738d26-2c59-408d-b669-b7ba791e5593-0-us_gsb&l=dir&o=4668&oo= 4668&sv=0a5ca86e&ip=6cd4e380&id=8DCF1EA6ADECFE84780CC5826C3E5618&q=bkt +tractor+tires&p=1&qs=999&ac=773&g=53e19giLC63nr6&cu.wz=0&en=te&io=0&ep= &eo=&b=a009&bc=&br=&tp=d&ec=1&pt=Anyone%20use%20BKT%20tires%3F&ex=tsrc%3D tled&url=&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.tractorbynet.com%2Fforums%2Fowning-operat ing%2F261764-anyone-use-bkt-tires.html GP ------- Re: 10F painting - Do you *really* need to strip the original paint Posted by: "gene" gene_isley_7x~xxyahoo.com Date: Sun Mar 24, 2013 6:21 pm ((PDT)) I guess I am taking a different position on painting over paint. The more buildup of material you get, the less resistant it is to chipping from impact. I never liked using fillers. Same reason. If you are going to paint over paint, feather out chips with sandpaper and use filler if you must. If the old paint has good bonding and is not too thick, you should be able to feather out chips. I do agree that the most important thing is proper preparation. Good luck and have fun. ------- Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2013 17:04:01 -0600 From: Don Schwartz Subject: Re: [OldTools] re: SawRestFest '13 and a shop tour On 6/8/2013 8:50 PM, John Leyden wrote: > > Now I gotta go looking for the info on how to enhance a saw etch, now > > that I have uncovered one on this nice Simonds rip saw. On 2013-06-08 8:51 PM, Darrell & Kathy wrote: > Get thee to ye olde gunne shoppe. > I've used cold bluing on a faint etch to make it more readable. > After the bluing use a hard sanding block lubricated with light > oil, which will sand away the high spots, leaving the blue in > the low spots. Voila, a better etch. YMMV, of course. Darrell: I've never used blueing before, and I plan to try it on my Edgerite. I picked up some Birchwood Casey Super Blue at CanTire today, and the instructions suggest leaving it on for 30 sec, then rinsing with cold water. Am I right in thinking you don't do that - just apply, let dry, then abrade ? Don ------- Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2013 21:01:04 -0400 From: Darrell & Kathy Subject: Re: [OldTools] re: SawRestFest '13 and a shop tour Whatever the directions are for the bluing, follow them. Once the process is completed, then lightly sand the area of the etch with a hard sanding block and very fine SiC paper. I don't recall the specifics of the stuff I used but whatever it was I think I put on a couple of coats and ended up with a large nearly black area where it was applied. Darrell LaRue Oakville ON ------- Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2013 15:32:27 -0700 (PDT) From: Thomas Conroy Subject: Re: [OldTools] re: SawRestFest '13 and a shop tour Most bluing methods work by, essentially, controlled corrosion. When the compound has gone as far as you want it to you should get rid of it or corrosion may continue. So rinse it with cold water when done, as specified. Multiple light coats may be needed; don't, obviously, sand between coats. I've used "Super Blue" and liked it, though my only comparison is the original "cold rust bluing" which takes weeks or months of daily scudding off the rust. It contains selenium dioxide, which is toxic in large doses. I doubt you would have any ill effects from the residue left on a blued object, but its still a reason for rinsing it. Better safe than sorry. Don't forget to clean any traces of oil off the area to be blued before applying the compound. There may be some residue from basic rust removal, if you do anything like what I do (abrading with oil to keep the dust from flying all over the room.) Tom Conroy ------- Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2013 21:34:00 -0500 From: WesG Subject: Re: [OldTools] re: SawRestFest '13 and a shop tour FWIW, Tom Law recommends using black shoe polish. Wes ------- Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2013 13:56:11 -0400 From: Gary A Maze Subject: [OldTools] re: SawRestFest '13 and a shop tour Tom Law used to recommend using gun sight blacking, at least for coloring the teeth when sharpening. After finding out this had become unobtainitium around here, I started using red Dykem I had laying around to mark the teeth prior to sharpening. This leads to leaving a red stain on the sides of the saw near the teeth which looks remarkably like old blood. No one ever asks to borrow my saws after they are sharpened.... ------- Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2013 16:09:51 -0500 From: WesG Subject: [OldTools] Re: SawRestFest '13 and a shop tour Gary, That is correct for sharpening, but he broke out the black Kiwi paste wax and rubbed it into the etch then wiped the rest off. When demonstrating how to make the etch more visible. Unless one is extremely careful, one can do more harm than good to an etch with sandpaper. I'd try the shoe polish first since it's reversible and doesn't scratch nuttin. Most etches, even really good ones aren't really "deep" at all. It's just that the texture left by the acid creates contrast with the surrounding steel. Abrading the area in any way will usually lessen the visibility. The reason shoe polish works is because the pigment gets into the texture of the etch and "highlights" it. (For lack of a better term.) Back to work. Wes ------- Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2013 16:06:22 -0600 From: Don Schwartz Subject: Re: [OldTools] Re: SawRestFest '13 and a shop tour I can't help asking - Was he recommending this for a user tool, or one merely for show? I'm leery of putting goopy black shoe polish on a user tool, though I would like to see the etch. Don ------- Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2013 18:14:17 -0500 From: WesG Subject: Re: [OldTools] Re: SawRestFest '13 and a shop tour Don, It's just wipe on wipe off, nothing goopy to worry about. It's just like paste wax. The only purpose for doing it is to hopefully see the etch better. And I should mention that it works well in some cases and less well in others. I would imagine that seeing the etch would be good or research purposes, selling purposes, or just for show. Cheers, Wes ------- Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2013 08:52:21 -0700 From: scott grandstaff Subject: [OldTools] raising a saw etch OK as far as I know it can't be done. I never had any luck anyway. Maybe others have. Maybe we can put our heads together and come up with something? shoe polish is a bust. You can't get off the excess without taking it all off. Shoe dye, ditto. paint........ same. Etching is only a few microns deep, and I think the molecules in these are too big or something. Whatever, they just roll out and off the second you sand the flat part of the sawplate, no matter what abrasive. I don't know why gun blue won't work though? You would think it should. Except the metal that gun blue is applied to has to be absolutely clean of all contaminants, even microscopic. There has to be grunge and rust and grease caked and dried down inside the etching lines. So how do we clean the metal in the bottom of the etch, so the blue can stick? This has been my problem. I can blue what I just sanded/scoured, namely the flat saw plate, no sweat. I can blue the background to beat the band. But it won't stick down inside the etching. So when I sand off the flat blued part, I am right back where I started. Anyone need to clean irregular nearly microscopic metal areas for plating or scientific reasons or something? I think if we could get the interior of the etching lines truly clean we might just have a chance with blue. yours Scott Scott Grandstaff Box 409 Happy Camp, Ca 96039 http://www.snowcrest.net/kitty/sgrandstaff/ http://www.snowcrest.net/kitty/hpages/index.html ------- Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2013 12:45:56 -0400 From: Brian Welch Subject: Re: [OldTools] raising a saw etch Scott, If your intention is to return the etch to its original glory, then shoe polish will not do the trick (and I don't know what will). But if you have a beat up old saw with a hint of an etch (or not even that) and you are just trying to figure out who made the saw, then shoe polish may be your best friend. I have a massive rip saw I had acquired in New Hampshire in 2001. The only info on the saw was a medallion that read "W. S. & M. Co. WARRANTED" with an eagle in the middle. I did tons of searching and I couldn't figure out what those initials stood for. Then in 2005 someone else on the list found a backsaw with the same medallion: http://swingleydev.com/archive/get.php?message_id=141477&submit_thre ad=1#message I went back to my saw that had no visible etch and did your typical sandpaper over a hardwood block trick, followed by covering the area with shoe polish and then wiping flat across leaving a little shoe polish down in whatever remained of the etch. And lo and behold it read "Wilson Saw & Mfg. Co." It took a magnifying glass and lots of light to read it, and I couldn't get a photo of it (I know, then it never happened), but it made me a believer in shoe polish. Brian ------- Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2013 13:00:45 -0500 From: WesG Subject: Re: [OldTools] raising a saw etch Gents, If the etch is only microns deep, then it should come as no surprise that sanding the etch will remove it. (otherwise why is sandpaper used for any reason on anything?) Applying gun blue, or machinist marking fluid and removing it with sandpaper might leave some darker spots in the etch, but only in places you should have been able to see in the first place. If the etch is unreadable (the point of the exercise is to make it more readable) then applying anything *only* within the lines of the etch is going to be impossible. Same thing goes for applying a resist around the outside of the etch so you can re-etch the etch. Mr Law tried a lot of different methods and he recommended shoe polish for making saw etchings more visible. The pigment nestles down into the "tooth" created by the acid etching process and stays there after the relatively smooth surrounding surfaces have been wiped clean. If the shoe polish doesn't do the trick, then the etch isn't going to get better. I'll take Tom's word for it, because it will be a long time before somebody comes to the table with more relevant experience to share. Cheers, Wes ------- Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2013 15:18:04 -0600 From: "Wiktor A. Kuc" Subject: RE: [OldTools] raising a saw etch Here are two articles on how to do it: Handsaw Blade Cleaning by Bob Sturgeon http://www.wkfinetools.com/tRestore/saw/sawBlade-bobStu/restSawBlade-1.asp New Life for an Old Saw - Advanced Filing and Restoration by Bob Smalser http://www.wkfinetools.com/contrib/bSmalser/art/nlOldSaw/nlOldSaw1.asp Page 3 describes how Bob does it. The surface of the etch needs to be degreased very thoroughly. I do it with acetone. >From my own experience: I keep the chemical on etch for at least 3-4 hours, making sure it is wet all the time. For Gary - the word "raising" used here in a sense as - reviling, exposing, etc. The etch is lower than the surface of the saw blade. Wiktor A. Kuc ------- Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2013 13:33:50 -0400 From: Anthony Seo Subject: Re: [OldTools] raising a saw etch I've had some fairly good success with cleaning marks in general by using a (SHOCK, GASP, HORROR) 6" fine wire wheel. I give the tool, be it a chisel or whatever a going over with the wheel in the vicinity of the marks or where I think they should be, prior to bringing out the sand paper. The theory here being that the wheel removes equal amounts of whatever patina from inside and outside of the mark. Saws are a bit tricker because of the size, I have done it, but it's not a lot of fun. I wish I had a bigger and more exposed wheel to do those with but one has to do with what one has. Note I did say Fine wheel. While it will lightly scuff a saw, most steel and iron items, I can get a polish without leaving marks. I use it on brass but that does take a lighter touch. FWIW Tony (waiting for round 2 of the storm system to move through...) Olde River Hard Goods http://www.oldetoolshop.com TSMusic on Facebook http://www.facebook.com/tonyseomusic ------- Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2013 17:32:16 -0400 From: Anthony Seo Subject: Re: [OldTools] raising a saw etch At 01:38 PM 6/13/2013, Bill Kasper wrote: >tony, have you ever tried a burnishing wheel for this, rather than >the fine wire? No, like I sort of mentioned my space is limited here for devices of this sort and well I don't have the time to be switching out wheels. A number of years back, a buddy of mine who has been a long time tool dealer of all kinds got a buffer wheel and well kind of went to town with it. EVERYTHING shined, I picked up a hand forged slater's roof hammer that he had power buffed and even the pitting shined. I kind of have to balance the patina with production. Tony (where we are still having weather but not nearly as bad as someplaces) ------- Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2013 14:49:15 -0700 From: Bill Kasper Subject: Re: [OldTools] raising a saw etch i've found success getting most of the grime off, while leaving a nice patinated layer, on some things with a well-worn burnishing wheel. just wondered if it would work similarly with an etch. i'll find an old saw and try it, sometime. best, bill felton, ca ------- Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2013 14:59:17 -0700 From: Brian Rytel Subject: Re: [OldTools] raising a saw etch First, on bluing an etch: It's perfectly possibly. I've re-blued the etch on two D-8s recently and it worked fairly well. I used Birchwood-Casey Super-Blue which was available at a local sporting good store. The plate was cleaned but not abraded all the way so that the specks of pitting still had the original oxidation of time. I cleaned the etch area very carefully with plain ol' rubbing alcohol and a q-tip. You might want to go over the area more than once with the alcohol if the q-tip is dirty after the first pass. I filled in just the area of the etch with the bluing and rinse with water after a few seconds. This leaves a blob of black steel where the etch is. I then continued the sandpaper process till the plate was mostly clean. I like a bit of patina on my saw-plates so I tend to leave the duller and greyer. I'd recommend bluing most or all of the etch-side of the plate. While the bluing doesn't eat at the steel much, it is an acid and leaves very fine texture wherever it was applied. At certain angles the texture can be seen even after the bluing is removed with sanding. If you use it on the whole plate, the appearance is even and unnoticeable. Sandpaper 'sheds' grit and the abraded steel will scratch the delicate bluing. Therefore, you need to keep the etch flooded with clean lubricant, otherwise the particles roll around and start ruining the crispness of the etch bluing. Second, the etch/stamp raising for forensics. [to recover serial numbers] I don't claim to be a forensic expert but I read up on the machine that does this. They use a machine that applies a charge over the metal part, combined with an acid mix it is able to eat away the stamped numbers so as to recover them. It ruins the surface and probably the material integrity. Brian J.M. Rytel "Just as a man working with his tools should know its limitations, a man working with his cognitive apparatus must know its limitations." - Charlie Munger ------- New photos of my bandsaw [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: "proto_trains" randyx~xxprototrains.com Date: Tue Sep 17, 2013 10:43 am ((PDT)) Hi all, it's been quite a while since I disaassembled my new-to-me 101.22622 bandsaw, a gift from a coworker. His dad bought it new, and welded up a stand from scraps of steel angle and channel. I actually electrolytically derusted the pieces last summer, but they sat on a shelf until just recently. I've finished refurbishing the saw and reassembled it, but I need to do some work to the stand before I can remount the motor, install the blade and fire up the saw. After derusting, I masked the machined surfaces on the castings, and brush-painted with Valspar Tractor & Implement primer and two coats of their IH Red. I let the paint dry for 3 weeks before removing the masking (blue painter's) tape and cleaning up the edges, and the surfaces I forgot to mask. The main shaft was very rusted, and I replaced it with a piece of 1/2" nitrided steel shaft from McMaster-Carr. It didn't need to be nitrided, I'm sure, but that was the shaft with good dimensional tolerances. All the bronze bushings were in good shape, as well as most of the fasteners and the idler wheel shaft. I replaced all the ball oilers and the circlips and two split pins. I had driven out the drive screws holding the two nameplates and was able to reuse them. The photos folder is "Randy';s 101.22922 horizontal bandsaw" I just finished adding the "rest of the story" photos to the album. Randy ------- NOTE TO FILE: The following suggestion for Boron Nitride coating came out of a discussion about grinding in proximity to metalworking machines and how users might protect the machines from grit and wear. ------- Re: grinding jig for shaprs [Metal_Shapers] Posted by: "Tom Kent" punkforhirex~xxyahoo.com Date: Tue Oct 1, 2013 7:16 pm ((PDT)) Yes the age old forum argument about grinding, it always ends up the same way with people lining up to side with one or the other, many a times I've had to ask myself, the people siding on it shouldn't be done, how much grinding have they actually done? With no questions about how are you protecting your machines? only assumptions and opinions. On the shaper it's rather easy with the grinding wheel setup to blow away from the shaper the speed of the ram is set to it's very slowest so following along with a shop vac is not difficult task, nor is draping oily shop rags around the shaper in areas where any abrasive would collect. A warning to the uneducated is always good practice, but offering opinion on something never tried is not. I agree keeping as much life in my shaper is the most important thing to me, but I restored and use the machine and precautions were added for longevity, it's not in a shop museum as a bygone tool, it's used as it was intended, a tool to shape metal. If you're really concerned about the ways on your old machines look into Boron Nitride electric coating and/or PTFE "Teflon" electroless. I build aircraft motors and gunsmith as a hobby, I regularly do both processes to extend the life of pistons and rings, NASCAR Boron Nitrides all engine parts. I've done this to the ways and bearings of all my restorations after scraping, absolutely nothing sticks! The cost to do a small one time job may not be justifiable but a large restoration on a piece of equipment that is hard to find parts for is. Again just 2 cents, TK ------- [Tips for painting any machine tool] Re: Logan 8" Shaper...Vertical Table Adjustment Problem [Metal_Shapers] Posted by: "Dennis Turk" dennis.turk2x~xxfrontier.com dturkcars Date: Sun Feb 16, 2014 4:16 pm ((PST)) This may be received with some disdain but for what it’s worth take all your Krylon paint out to the dumpster and dispose of it. Worst paint ever put in a can. Now go get some Rustolium as that is what is on almost every machine I have restored. Other than what has been custom color mixed for me and that paint is Merolac, a urethane filled alkaloid enamel made by Devo. I have restored over 40 machines and only one ever had primer on it and sorry I did. All others are painted right on the bare castings. Also all my restorations have been brush painted other than sheet metal parts. If you prime your rough castings the primer will be bonded to the rough casting surface but the paint you put on after will only be bonded to the primer and will chip and reveal what color primer you used. Paint directly applied to the casting will not chip. It may be dented or bruised but it stays were you put it. Glen as well as a few others have seen my work first hand and I think they will tell you the same thing. Turk ------- Re: Logan 8" Shaper...Vertical Table Adjustment Problem Posted by: wmrmeyersx~xxsbcglobal.net oldstudentmsgt Date: Sun Feb 16, 2014 4:54 pm ((PST)) I've been using Krylon by choice for a couple of decades, like it just fine. Not saying it's the best, but I can find it just about anyplace in the USA I've been. If I couldn't get it, I'd have settled for Rustoleum, as a distant second. This is not disdain, you've got a good track record with your stuff, and some gorgeous stuff it is, but I just need something to keep the rust off. Gentleman I have a passing acquaintance with was a design engineer for GM for 30+ years, and had a preference for a specific type of paint, also. Don't recall the name, but this stuff was, at the time, about $400/gallon. That is more than twice what I have invested in the shaper right there. I'd have used latex house paint if that was all I had or could get. Been some times like that in the recent past, in fact. The GM guy was painting and selling his work on sheet-metal and getting 6 & 7 figure prices for it. http://www.meiselgallery.com/lkmg/artist/index.php?aid=24 shows a couple of his pieces. Life-size. My skill is not as great, nor my needs. ;) My wife wrote an article on him for Airbrush Action Magazine a few years ago. Shows I made some really, REALLY wrong choices as a younger man. My experience says use primer. I didn't do the painting, but I saw how well it worked on the jets I worked on. F-111D fighter jets, Cannon AFB, NM., in the early-to-mid 70's. Had one of my jets exceed mach 3, pulled fasteners through the panels, but the paint stayed on. I arrived there 39 years ago this month, was assigned as the crew chief on my jet shortly after my 19th birthday, and was out of the field with wrecked knees by the summer of 1975. I've done it the best I can, reasonably good surface prep, and all, and it will last, or it won't. If not, I'll do it again. Maybe with better paint if I can afford it. ;) Bill in OKC ------- Re: Logan 8" Shaper...Vertical Table Adjustment Problem Posted by: meschirox~xxbigpond.com ianmessenger1048 Date: Mon Feb 17, 2014 11:42 am ((PST)) Greetings. In Australia we have Killrust paint who were taken over by Wattyl Paints, no problems. Sadly some American company bought Wattyl out last year and my supplier told me that the price will go up by somewhere between 50 and 100%. I do not know if this has happened yet or who the company is but if you get the paint over there you will be on a winner. It is top quality stuff. The paint is made for outside use on any metal exposed to the elements. I use it on just about everything I paint. The Killrust paint is an epoxy enamel and they have their standard colours but they will mix colours for you if you want. I painted the inside of my 18" Elliot with Burnt Amber (a deep orange that I have used on just about all of my other machines - presses, truss, guillotine, etc.) and their Pewter (a light grey looking colour - I am a bit colourblind) on the outside. Looks Spiffy. Most of the castings had a lot of filler on them and this was severely cracked from being out in the weather. A wire brush in the angle grinder made short work of that. Any real rough spots in the castings were cleaned up real quick with the angle grinder. Killrust can be sprayed but it goes on easily with a brush and gives a good finish. They have special primers etc. but I just put two coats straight on the metal. No problems. Dr Ian C Messenger DC Western Australia ------- Re: Logan 8" Shaper...Vertical Table Adjustment Problem Posted by: "Glen Linscheid" partsproductionx~xxcenturylink.net Date: Mon Feb 17, 2014 1:52 pm ((PST)) Krylon has an epoxy rattle can paint, I used one made for appliances recently on a customers cast part I had earlier heated up tp remove a bad bearing, matched surprisingly well. Anyway, my experience with rattle can paint isn't real good, maybe the epoxy will work better. ------- [ Plating or replating with chrome or nickel ] Re: 12" lathe carriage [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: "Gregg Eshelman" g_alan_ex~xxYAHOO.COM Date: Mon Oct 13, 2014 6:33 pm ((PDT)) On 10/13/2014 7:49 AM, rosslathex~xxyahoo.com [atlas_craftsman] wrote: > the chrome is worn off some of the wheels--can the metal used for the > wheels be rechromed by usual methods? Are they a zinc containing > alloy? If not rechrome, then paint? Any good approaches?? Zinc alloys should be plated with copper first. There's a process to clean and activate (AKA "pickling") before doing the copper plate. Then nickel or chrome can be plated over the copper. The right way to strip the old plating off is electrically. Then the pickling process, flash copper then heavy copper. The heavy copper gets buffed to a high gloss then cleaned followed immediately by chroming before the clean copper can tarnish. Every blemish in the copper will show in the chrome. ------- powder coating [atlas618lathe] Posted by: chad.sharronx~xxyahoo.com chad.sharron Date: Sun Oct 19, 2014 8:35 pm ((PDT)) Hello all. Just bought my first lathe. An atlas 618 of course. I'm in the process of restoring it and was wondering what you all think about powdercoating. We have a complete powder line at work. The ovens run at 400f. Do you think there are internal stresses that will be brought out by a couple 30 minute sessions at 400? Thanks ------- Re: powder coating Posted by: "Keith Adams" kadams4458x~xxgmail.com kadams4458 Date: Mon Oct 20, 2014 7:56 pm ((PDT)) As I am engaged in the profession of powder coating, I can safely answer this question. The short answer is yes. 30 minute cycles will very likely warp things. For the long answer and a work-around, read on... The question isn't whether or not there are internal stresses that can be brought out by heating and cooling cast iron parts, because there certainly are. There are, however, precautions which can be taken to prevent warping cast parts. The problem is primarily in cooling the parts too rapidly. I do intend to powder coat my own little lathe, but I hadn't announced it, as past experience has shown me that someone is usually quick to warn me that I'll ruin whatever machine it may be by doing so. Such destruction has never happened to me, but I am very careful about how I treat machined parts, so I don't usually mention it until after it is done, and the machine has not been harmed. The problem with sticking cast iron machine parts in to a production line is the speed at which production lines operate. You risk warping parts when they are heated rapidly to high cure temps, and then cooled rapidly afterwards. With a cast iron part, you also have to outgass the part, which usually involves higher than cure temps until contaminates are burned out. With a used machine part subjected to decades of oil and grease, outgassing can take many hours. As a result, at least two heating and cooling cycles are completed, increasing the chance of screwing things up. The best way to avoid warping things is to warm parts slowly, and cool them even slower. That kind of work is better suited for a custom powder coating shop that can afford to take more time letting a part cure at a lower temperature, and then allow it several hours to cool down to room temperature after curing. I outgas sensitive machined parts at no more than 20 degrees Fahrenheit above the cure temp of the intended powder for as long as it takes for them to stop smoking. I use low temp curing powders as much as possible, and try to use powders that cure between 340 and 360 degrees Fahrenheit, so I can outgass them at 360 to 380. Any time these sensitive parts need to be cooled, I never drop them more than 50 degrees the first hour, and there after 50 degrees every two hours until room temperature is achieved. Being this cautious I have never had a part warp, but it takes a degree of dedication on the part of the person performing the work. Curing and cooling one batch of parts becomes and all day job, so it only happens on slow days. KC Adams ------- Just introducing myself [atlas618lathe] Posted by: curtis.normanx~xxcomcast.net crackerfactory03 Date: Sat Nov 29, 2014 4:39 pm ((PST)) Hello everyone! Just today a friend of mine sold (well, he practically gave me this) Craftsman 618 (Atlas 101) model lathe with 4 jaw chuck, faceplate, drill chucks and various small tooling including a few collets to go with it. I am happy to be a part of this lathe group and hope to learn a few things about my new tool. One question that I have for you is this: do any of you know what color paint the original Craftsman 101 style lathe sported? The lathe that I got from my friend could use a new coat of paint on the various parts and I would appreciate any suggestions as to commercially available spray paints (in the can please, I do not have any paint spraying equipment) like Krylon brand or whatever brand you recommend to use would be nice to know. Thank you very much in advance for any information that you would care to give. Curtis ------- Re: Just introducing myself Posted by: "Keith Adams" kadams4458x~xxgmail.com Date: Sat Nov 29, 2014 4:59 pm ((PST)) Welcome to the group, Curtis! The early examples were Craftsman blue, while the latter models were primarily a few various but similar shades of grey, from what I have seen. It will probably prove fruitless to search for a good colour match in a can, but you have to look at it, so pick something that doesn't make your eyes bleed. Personally, I would skip the rattle can paints entirely if those were my only way to shoot paint, and brush paint the thing. Everything in a can is so thin and brittle these days. I have had great results from painting a few machines with Valspar Tractor and Implement Enamel. It takes a good month to really harden, even with hardener added, but it's very oil resistant, and extremely tough once cured. KC Adams ------- Re: Just introducing myself Posted by: curtis.normanx~xxcomcast.net crackerfactory03 Date: Sat Nov 29, 2014 9:23 pm ((PST)) Thanks for the information, Keith. I will look for the paint that you mentioned. I had briefly considered International Harvester White also, but then thought well, that might look good, but would not be "authentic". I will go with the brand of paint you suggested and make it some shade of light gray. I appreciate your reply to my post! Curtis ------- Re: Just introducing myself Posted by: wa5cabx~xxcs.com wa5cab Date: Sat Nov 29, 2014 9:24 pm ((PST)) Curtis, As KC said, the early Craftsman badged models were a blue-gray, at least judging from the catalogs, whereas all of the Atlas machines were a dark gray roughly equivalent to the current Rustoleum Machinery Dark Gray. From late 1957 on, both badges were in a lighter gray similar to Rustoleum Machinery Gray. If your 6" is a Craftsman 101.21400 (same as Atlas 618), then the lighter gray would be correct because the 101.21400 was first sold in late 1957. If it is a sleeve bearing 101.07301, then it depends upon the year it was made. What is the model and serial number? Robert Downs - Houston wa5cab dot com (Web Store) MVPA 9480 ------- Re: Just introducing myself Posted by: burkheimerx~xxverizon.net ar1911 Date: Sun Nov 30, 2014 10:39 am ((PST)) I am partial to Plastikote aerosol paint by Valspar. In their Industrial series they have Machinery Light Gray and Machinery Dark Gray. I favor the Engine Paint for it's slightly lower gloss and it seems a bit tougher. Certainly it is solvent resistant. Ford Engine Gray falls between the Machinery Grays. Among the three I can usually find a close match. If not, there are a few other choices in the Plastikote line. Rex B - DFW ------- Re: Just introducing myself Posted by: "Phil Pappano" papp101x~xxgmail.com papp102 Date: Sun Nov 30, 2014 3:31 pm ((PST)) Take a look at the valspar farm and implement ford dark gray. I love it for a machine color. ------- Removing paint [myfordlathes] Posted by: "Marc Nicholas" geekythingx~xxgmail.com marcinmarkham Date: Tue Jun 2, 2015 2:42 pm ((PDT)) The previous custodian of my mL7 had attempted to repaint portions of what appears to be the factory paint (the factory decal being painted around). Whilst the slightly shoddy paintwork doesn’t affect operation of the lathe (as far as I can tell ;), I am tempted to strip her down and repaint her. I believe the safety covers are ZAMAK? They certainly resist a magnet sticking to them. I’m tempted to try electrolysis as I’ve seen some success removing paint that way, although “white” metal is a little less forgiving. Failing that, has anyone tried oven cleaner? The noxious stuff that comes in a spray can. Thank! Marc Nicholas ------- Re: Removing paint Posted by: "Christopher Angiolini" chris.angiolinix~xxgooglemail.com Date: Tue Jun 2, 2015 3:19 pm ((PDT)) Hi Marc If you're in the UK take a trip to b and q or screwfix and pick up a couple of bottles of "Diall" or "No nonsense" paint stripper - same stuff and works quite well. Also is a third of the price of nitromors. Also cheaper than oven cleaner. Can't comment on electrolysis as I have no knowledge of experience but the aforementioned paint stripper plus a steel wire brush worked well when I did my ml7. The best piece of advice I can pass on from my experience of doing up my lathe is take many photos. This helps no end when you come to reassembly. Take it slowly and the results are spectacular! Regards Chris ------- Re: Removing paint Posted by: "Marc Nicholas" geekythingx~xxgmail.com marcinmarkham Date: Tue Jun 2, 2015 3:46 pm ((PDT)) Hi Chris, I’m in Canada, but I’m pretty sure that we’ll have something similar. I might try electrolysis first as it’s relatively easy to set up and if it works, it tends to make the paint peel off in large chunks. Plus I just made a batch of sodium carbonate ;) Your advice around photos is very wise. My biggest challenge is in my [lack of] ability to put things back together without extra pieces. Is it indeed ZAMAK that was used for the safety covers? Thx. Marc Nicholas ------- Re: Removing paint Posted by: jon_caulfieldx~xxyahoo.com jon_caulfield Date: Tue Jun 2, 2015 11:24 pm ((PDT)) I put my covers in a rotary hot parts washer, any paint that didn't fall off due to the heat came away with a buffing pad in my grinder. Before applying normal primer or top coat I dusted with acid etch primer to be sure I had a good key on what I assumed to be the aluminium of the covers. Jon ------- Re: Removing paint Posted by: burgoynedanielx~xxyahoo.ca burgoynedaniel Date: Wed Jun 3, 2015 3:55 am ((PDT)) Marc, I typed a long reply that just went into cyberspace! I used a chemical stripper and it was awful. It damaged the filler base on the castings and I had to apply Bondo auto body filler and fettle it by hand. Took too much work really. Better to use sanding sponges by hand or small sanding disks on a rotary tool. Then fill chips and dings with Bondo. Apply an etching primer to make the paint stick well. I got alkyd enamel colour matched by Benjamin Moore from a gear that had unfaded original grey paint. The covers are alu. Had to repair one crack with TIG welding and it welded well. The covers can really be made smooth with sanding and look great once repainted. Daniel Ottawa ON ------- Re: Removing paint Posted by: "Marc Nicholas" geekythingx~xxgmail.com marcinmarkham Date: Wed Jun 3, 2015 4:20 am ((PDT)) Thanks, Daniel. I may avoid the chemical route, then. I don’t want to turn this into a “make work” project where I have to refinish the exterior as well as paint! Out of interest, what makes you think they’re aluminum (or given they were made in the UK, aluminium :) ) rather than ZAMAK? I’m a little less comfortable trying electrolysis on Al. Cheers, Marc Nicholas ------- Re: Removing paint Posted by: burgoynedanielx~xxyahoo.ca burgoynedaniel Date: Wed Jun 3, 2015 4:31 am ((PDT)) I think they are in aluminium because of the weldind repair on the cover with a TIG. I could be wrong but I do not think Zamak welds well. Daniel ------- Re: Removing paint Posted by: "Marc Nicholas" geekythingx~xxgmail.com marcinmarkham Date: Wed Jun 3, 2015 5:08 am ((PDT)) Lathes.co.uk does indeed mention they’re aluminium although maybe the age of mine makes them look more like something else. Not surprising that they pitted with chemical strippers, then, as a lot of those are quite caustic. Thanks for the input :) Marc Nicholas ------- Re: Removing paint Posted by: "Kevin" tadpolex~xxbtinternet.com klokenz Date: Wed Jun 3, 2015 7:52 am ((PDT)) > Out of interest, what makes you think they’re aluminum (or given they > were made in the UK, aluminium :) ) rather than ZAMAK? I’m a little less > comfortable trying electrolysis on Al. Well, if you try electrolysis in sodium carbonate solution and you find that they are dissolving (which they will), then you'll know that they are aluminium! Probably get a similar result with oven cleaner, which tends to be alkaline. For me it's a bit like the question that crops up every so often in the world of clocks .... what should I use to lubricate my clock? (Hint, you can buy stuff that says "Clock Oil" on the label). If I want to strip paint I'd be looking at the shelves of paint stripper in the DIY shop. Read the labels, they are not all the same, and select one suitable for aluminium. Always assuming that you have original parts of course. I suppose it's just possible that you have aftermarket items made of Zamak (aka Mazak). There has already been a warning though about stripper also going for the filler, so you might not want to go down that route anyway. Kevin (and engine oil in the VW!) Kevin, England ------- bead blasting [atlas618lathe] Posted by: "markx~xxnoakes.com" markx~xxnoakes.com marknoakes Date: Tue Oct 20, 2015 4:13 am ((PDT)) Other than taping off any machined surfaces and being careful to clean all of the residue out afterwards, are there any hazards to bead blasting the major portions of the lathe to get the best possible surface for paint adhesion and to clear chipped paint? Anyone use chemical stripping instead? Thanks, Mark N ------- Re: bead blasting Posted by: kadams4458x~xxgmail.com kadams4458 Date: Wed Oct 21, 2015 5:17 pm ((PDT)) Mark, I used a more aggressive approach, and blasted all of the steel parts of mine with 60 grit aluminum oxide, which is how I usually prep most metals for powder coating. Two or three layers of good duct tape over the areas you don't want blasted works well as long as you do a good job of degreasing the parts, and it can be trimmed precisely with a razor. Compressed air and a chip brush will eliminate most of the grit after blasting, but for precision machined parts, I like to go ahead and rinse with acetone after blowing and brushing. In a pinch, a can of brake cleaner will suffice. Either will get rid of the last of the grit and will help ensure good finish adhesion. I have industrial chemical strippers on hand that blow away the stuff you can buy at the hardware store, but cleaning up any stripper out of castings like these lathes are made from is just too time consuming in my opinion. If you have access to decent blasting equipment, the job can be done more quickly and more completely with abrasive blasting than with chemical strippers, and you won't be left with a bunch of stripper in the pores of the metal that could potentially ruin the new paint. KC Adams ------- Re: bead blasting Posted by: "markx~xxnoakes.com" markx~xxnoakes.com marknoakes Date: Wed Oct 21, 2015 6:49 pm ((PDT)) Thanks. I will avoid paint stripper due to the casting porosity...good call. I do have a cabinet blaster, a free standing blaster for bigger stuff, and an "air eraser" for little stuff, and a range of media from walnut shells to glass beads to carbide. I was a little squeamish on going for the aggressive grit but will give it a try. I have acetone and lacquer thinner on hand but usually use Eastwood PRE for paint prep. Still trying to decide on Rustoleum Dark Machinery Gray (most original?), automotive under hood low gloss black (almost has a japanning look to it), or gloss black machinery wrinkle finish (similar to what Starrett uses). While the black is less original, it will give it a classier vintage look. I primed some sheet metal and used all finishes side by side...still not decided...though I note that the "dark" gray is still not as dark as my machine was originally. Mark N ------- Re: bead blasting Posted by: "Andy Kirkpatrick" tracrestore51x~xxyahoo.com tracrestore51 Date: Wed Oct 21, 2015 6:52 pm ((PDT)) I would use silver hammertone paint. ------- Re: bead blasting Posted by: egpacex~xxhotmail.com egpace Date: Wed Oct 21, 2015 9:06 pm ((PDT)) Mark, I've always hand sanded my parts with 320 grit emory after a thorough degreasing. I've used Rustoleum paint with excellent results. I hand painted my first 618 with it 40 years ago and it's held up nicely. And yes, if I had blasting equipment available I'd use it. Look in the file section for the "MK2 from parts" I used a Rustoleum Royal Blue spray can to finish that, If I were you I'd avoid the wrinkle finish, not as easy to clean, just my 2 cents. Ed Pace P.S. Early machine tools were indeed painted black, after WW1 tons of surplus battleship gray became available dirt cheap and the machine industry jumped on it. ------- Re: bead blasting Posted by: "Robert Downs" wa5cabx~xxcomcast.net wa5cab Date: Thu Oct 22, 2015 12:29 am ((PDT)) For the record, the Navy never painted anything “battleship gray”. That’s something that some civilian thought up. It’s “Haze Gray”. And I completely agree on not using wrinkle finish on machine tools. Robert D. ------- Re: bead blasting Posted by: egpacex~xxhotmail.com egpace Date: Thu Oct 22, 2015 10:45 am ((PDT)) Robert, I believe "Haze Gray Paint" was a paint formulated during world war II, I can't find any mention of it prior to the 2nd world war, but I do find numerous references to "Battleship Gray" circa 1920. (See pic) This was the time period I was refering to in my reply to Mark. Regards, Ed Pace 2 of 2 Photo(s) https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/atlas618lathe/attachments/1829092233 gray.jpg battleship-gray.jpg ------- Re: bead blasting [2 Attachments] Posted by: "Robert Downs" wa5cabx~xxcomcast.net wa5cab Date: Thu Oct 22, 2015 7:39 pm ((PDT)) Ed, Could be. Outside of two or three copies of Signal Corps radio TM’s (which at the time were not called TM), all of my publication collection is around 1935 or later. One thing I noticed is that a century ago, battleship appears to have been spelled battle-ship. Robert D. ------- Re: bead blasting [2 Attachments] Posted by: egpacex~xxhotmail.com egpace Date: Thu Oct 22, 2015 8:22 pm ((PDT)) Robert, My 1829 copy of the Science of Mechanics spells "Horse-Power" and an 1803 World Exploration book I own describes a newly discovered fruit called the "Pine-Apple". Common in the past. Maximilian Toch was the go to guy for the Navy back in 1910. The Brits officially called their paint "Battleship Grey". Ed Pace ------- [atlas_craftsman] Re: what color is closest to my 10F TH54 buying the color at Home Depot Posted by: "Peter Maston" pmastonx~xxniello.com rpm7200max Date: Mon Feb 1, 2016 10:06 am ((PST)) I hope one of you had the experience with repainting an Atlas lathe, I like to buy the paint at Home Depot if possible. thank you in advance, respectfully PeterM ------- Re: what color is closest to my 10F TH54 buying the color at Home Depot Posted by: db45acpx~xxyahoo.com db45acp Date: Mon Feb 1, 2016 2:06 pm ((PST)) Try a can of Rustoleum # 2187 Dark Machine Gray Spray Paint in the 15 oz can. It is as perfect a match for anything I have ever found on Atlas machines. Dan ------- Re: what color is closest to my 10F TH54 buying the color at Home Depot Posted by: db45acpx~xxyahoo.com db45acp Date: Mon Feb 1, 2016 2:12 pm ((PST)) There may be a newer updated number for it, as well. Also look for Dark Machine Gray 7587838 - 15 oz. Spray Available at most Home Depot Stores. Dan ------- Re: what color is closest to my 10F TH54 buying the color at Home Depot Posted by: aeroronx~xxbellsouth.net Date: Mon Feb 1, 2016 3:17 pm ((PST)) Hi Peter. While I usually prefer automotive paint by PPG or DuPont to withstand oils and solvents and hardness, I used the Rustoleum "Professional" in the rattle can from Home Depot and so far it has been fine. Don't just paint over what you have, since without surface preparation it will just flake off or fail later (like the previous owner of my lathe did). My Atlas 10-F TH54 had three layers of colors on it, the bottom layer appeared to be a dark gray. Rustoleum Dark Machine Gray appears to be a little lighter than what I suppose was the original. I took apart Everything on my lathe to paint it recently, and I mean everything. I used Klean Strip paint stripper on all painted parts (messy job) and removed all paint, but that leaves a residue. Then I taped off "sensitive" precision machine surfaces with painters tape and then 80 grit-glass bead blasted all parts in a blast cabinet to clean final residue. For my lathe's cast legs and bed, I taped off the lathe ways with Gorilla tape over the painters tape and blasted with 70-grit aluminum oxide (outdoors on a tarpaulin to collect the blast media). Most cast parts have highly 'dimpled' porous casting surfaces, so if you want a smooth finish you will have to use bondo -- I did not. I then cleaned all parts thoroughly, and taped off all precision machined surfaces with blue painters tape. I primed all parts with Rustoleum Professional Gray Primer 7582-838 (15floz). I then painted all parts with Rustoleum Professional Dark Machine Gray High Performance Enamel 7587-838 (15floz) (similar to their "hard hat" version V2187). Wait at least a week for the enamel to cure before allowing oil on the painted surfaces. I attached a photo. Anyway, that's what I did...have fun! Ron Crowell 1 of 1 Photo(s) https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/atlas_craftsman/attachments/1787210369 threeview.jpg ------- Re: what color is closest to my 10F TH54 buying the color at Home Depot Posted by: gngwingert7100x~xxyahoo.com gngwingert7100 Date: Mon Feb 1, 2016 3:30 pm ((PST)) I painted mine with Tractor Supply Majic implement paint in the Massey Ferguson gray color. It is a good match as far as I could tell on a 70 year old machine. I have used that brand on farm equipment with good results as far as durability goes. Gary ------- Re: what color is closest to my 10F TH54 buying the color at Home Depot Posted by: "Pete Mclaughlin" pete_mclaughlin_93555x~xxyahoo.com Date: Mon Feb 1, 2016 4:05 pm ((PST)) Hi Ron. Thanks for the rundown on repainting the lathe. That is a very nice job on your Atlas Lathe. Sincerely Pete McLaughlin ------- Re: what color is closest to my 10F TH54 buying the color at Home Depot Posted by: wa5cabx~xxcs.com wa5cab Date: Mon Feb 1, 2016 1:53 pm ((PST)) The Finish box on an Atlas drawing that I have (for the late 12" tailstock base) says "Paint Machine Tool Gray". That drawing is dated 1956. From some of the catalogs I have (either Atlas or Sears), that is probably about the time that they shifted to that color. Unfortunately, the few drawings that I have of earlier parts that would have been painted don't list the finish (except for a couple that say chrome plate). However, from earlier catalogs plus a lot of the equipment, the color was darker. Maybe what was called Dark Machine Tool Gray. However, I can promise you that if you did know the name of the color and painted something with it, it would be lighter than any decent looking existing paint from the 50's or 40's. Reds tend to fade toward orange. Grays and greens tend to fade toward black. The initial change will be in the first six months. If you aren't in a big hurry, you might buy a can of dark machine tool gray, paint something with it, and set it somewhere that is exposed to both daylight and fluorescent light and let it sit for a year. And then compare. Robert Downs - Houston wa5cab dot com (Web Store) MVPA 9480 ------- Re: what color is closest to my 10F TH54 buying the color at Home Depot Posted by: "Peter Maston" pmastonx~xxniello.com rpm7200max Date: Tue Feb 2, 2016 8:28 am ((PST)) Thank you all for the generous explanation on painting and what color to use. I will clean the lathe as nice as I can and get the paint off as best as I can, then paint what is left after the primer coat feels nice and solid…...many thanks again. respectfully PeterM ------- Date: Tue, 2 Feb 2016 18:52:50 -0800 From: "Gary P. Laroff" Subject: [OldTools] Gun bluing for chisels? When I do major sharpening or change the bevel angle on Japanese chisels I often grind away a small porting of the upper blade and socket above the blade so that I can hone lower or use a sharpening jig. This removes the original black coloring from this area. What is the best way to put back this original dark color to cover up the area that I grind away? Some have suggested "gun bluing". Does anyone here have a suggested solution? ------- Date: Tue, 2 Feb 2016 21:22:06 -0800 From: Kirk Eppler Subject: Re: [OldTools] Gun bluing for chisels? I bought Lee Valley's Birchwood Casey Gun Bluing, wrote about it here http://swingleydev.com/ot/get/252573/thread/#252573 Here is a quick pic of the results, compared to a Bad Axe saw. https://kirkhmb.smugmug.com/Woodworking/Tools/No-Name-Backsaw-Re hab/i-4qb4NBK Kirk, not in HMB right now ------- Date: Wed, 3 Feb 2016 11:34:21 +0000 From: "John M Johnston (jmjhnstn)" Subject: Re: [OldTools] Gun bluing for chisels? I used gun bluing to great advantage when re-habbing a MF Landon #16 1/2 miter box. It was pretty much a perfect match with the black (not painted) color of the original castings. I just rubbed it on with a Q-tip, let it dry, and proceeded with a bit of Paste wax over all. Cheers, John ------- Date: Wed, 3 Feb 2016 08:40:48 -0500 From: Claudio DeLorenzi Subject: Re: [OldTools] Gun bluing for chisels? Gun blue is one (good) way to go, (it works, and does provide some anti rust protection too) but you should also check out hobby shops that sell stained glass supplies. Quite a while ago, I picked up a small bottle of "Novacan Patina" -- a solution meant to treat the (lead/solder, etc) metal frames when doing stained glass art (the price on the bottle is $7.95- but I can't recall exactly where I bought it- so it is much cheaper than gun blue). As I recall, they have different tones and colors available -- I only bought the black -- the final result will depend on the metal, surface prep, etc. It works on steel, brass, copper and a bunch of other metals. Might be worth a look to see if you like the effect. Or you can go old skule and look for "liver of sulphur" and other tricks from "Spon's Workshop Receipts for Manufacturers and Mechanics" available through Google Books (free). I have not tried very much from Spon's -- mainly because I can't find very many of the apparently then common materials that they mention in their formulas. Still worth a look though. Cheers from Waterloo Claudio ------- [Refinishing an oil soaked wood top on a machine stand] Atlas maple stand top and shelf sealer ? [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: wbeckwithx~xxbellsouth.net Date: Mon Feb 15, 2016 4:05 pm ((PST)) Am almost ready to seal maple top and shelf for TH54 stand. Have removed several coats of red and gray enamel (red seemed to be the first coat on legs), glued & re-laminated boards, de-greased, scraped and lightly sanded. The boards were pretty oil soaked. Undecided on seal coat. Polyurethane?, Spar Varnish?, Clear acrylic? Automotive fuel-resistant clear coat?, leave unsealed? ------- Re: Atlas maple stand top and shelf sealer ? and lathe bed flatness Posted by: aeroronx~xxbellsouth.net aeroronx~xxbellsouth.net Date: Mon Feb 15, 2016 5:08 pm ((PST)) My 1-cent: For my 10-F TH54 I used a portable belt sander on the top and shelf and finished with a rag soaked in MinWax Dark Walnut Stain for sealing and penetration. This should be plenty sufficient (it's not a gun stock ;). Lathe oil does not bother it. ***See my refinished rebuilt Atlas 10x36 TH54 lathe shown in a recent 3-view photo in the group's Photos. (I have since added chip pans and chip backstops.) **My 2-cents: **Beware! When you remount the lathe bed on the top, be aware that when you bolt down the lathe bed through the top to the legs that the lathe bed can bend (bow) up or down if the bed ends do not lay flat, or even if they do lay flat the bed your bed may be already bowed as is. My TH54 lathe bed was/is bowed about .009" down in the middle when sitting at rest unbolted. I mitigated most of the bow by shimming the inner end of the lathe bed feet and bolting it down to thus make it bow less to about .005". If I ever need it dead flat, I can put a tiny machinist bottle jack in the middle...(to my surprise the wood top is stiff enough to support the jack enough to bend the bed up a little). Be aware that a large bow in the lathe bed taken out this way can put a great deal of stress on the 1/4" bolt and associated bed casting thread on each end of the bed and bed feet, since all the bending force is transmitted through them. Note that if your bed is bowed up instead of down, then you can shim it on the outer ends before you bolt it down (and you would have the benefit of 2 instead of one 1/4 screw in tension on each end). Important to note also that I shimmed my two cast legs under the top to ensure they can't rock (and will support my bed shimming). When you reassemble your legs, check to see if they sit solid under the top. **My 10-cents: ** I did not bend my present lathe's bed back to flat since the error is so small for what I do, and I can still make a pretty constant continuous toleranced diameter turning along most of the bed length. But if you do have a bowed bed, and many probably are, be aware that if you are going to surface grind the ways someday that you must first straighten it carefully! in a press. Be advised that many large surface grinder's magnetic chucks/tables are strong enough to bow the long bed flat when touching up the bottom surface with a surface grinder before flipping it over to do the ways' top, and so if it was bowed when unloaded then you can end up with varying thickness ways when surface ground. Also be aware if you straighten it that it may not bend or be bent in a constant arc (can be a U or V or less likely an S?) and that it can also twist (or already be twisted) along its length or just twisted in its middle (I.e. one way lower in the middle than the other), and also be aware that it can bend sideways more easily than up and down! Always put stops to capture the bed when straightening it so it cannot bend too far or in a wrong direction. The I-beam type sides may not be stable under extreme loads. FYI: the bed's approximate average area moment of inertia is only about 5.4 inches^4 for calculating loads for vertical bending, and its torsional constant K is only about 0.53, so it is pretty easy to bend or twist as lathe beds go. End of my penny to dime thoughts. Hope this was not TMI, I get carried away. Ron C ------- Re: Atlas maple stand top and shelf sealer ? Posted by: "Steve Metsch" stevemetschx~xxcox.net Date: Mon Feb 15, 2016 6:03 pm ((PST)) Oil soaked wood begs for an oil based finish that doesn't skin over. Try Tung oil. I assume you are going to use a full chip pan. ------- Re: Atlas maple stand top and shelf sealer ? Posted by: wbeckwithx~xxbellsouth.net Date: Mon Feb 15, 2016 6:25 pm ((PST)) Thanks, I had not considered all of this. Good advice. ------- Re: Atlas maple stand top and shelf sealer ? Posted by: "James Irwin" jirwin1x~xxaustin.rr.com jimirwin2001 Date: Mon Feb 15, 2016 7:25 pm ((PST)) Good luck getting ANYTHING to stick! Not sure, but suspect one may get some 'drying' (polymerization) by using an oil finish perhaps with added dryer (agent to enhance polymerization chemically). So the soaked-in oil becomes ³finish². Jim I ------- ------------------------------------------------------------------ This is just one of some 80 files about machining and metalworking and useful workshop subjects that can be read at: http://www.janellestudio.com/metal/index.html ------------------------------------------------------------------