This is one of two files on this site giving many practical tips for putting a fine finish onto metal. "Finish for Tools" mainly discusses surface preparation and finishes appropriate for our machines or tools. "Finish and Polish" is aimed at bringing metal projects or parts to a smooth or otherwise appropriate surface texture, and discusses some of the finishes that might be applied -- for any combination of durability or protection or appearance. It is suggested that you also look through the "Cleaning Tips" file to obtain advice on cleaning items preparatory to finishing. The "Lubricants General" file will provide ideas on products that will make your tools or projects work more efficiently, minimize wear, and protect them from the elements. If you got to this file directly from my HOME PAGE, return there by using your browser's back button. BUT if you came to this file as the result of a web search engine, see more than 70 additional files on my home page Machining and Metalworking at Home http://www.janellestudio.com/metal/ SAFETY WARNING BEWARE: DO NOT ASSUME that any subject matter or procedure or process is safe or correct or appropriate just because it was mentioned in a news/user group or was included in these files or on this site or on any other web site or was published in a magazine or book or video. Working with metals and machinery and chemicals and electrical equipment is inherently dangerous. Wear safety devices and clothing as appropriate. Remove watches, rings, and jewellery -- and secure or remove loose clothing -- before operating any machine. Read, understand and follow the latest operating procedures and safety instructions provided by the manufacturer of your machine or tool or product. If you do not have those most recent official instructions, acquire a copy through the manufacturer before operating or using their product. Where the company no longer exists, use the appropriate news or user group to locate an official copy. Be careful -- original instructions may not meet current safety standards. Updated safety information and operating instructions may also be available through a local club, a local professional in the trade, a local business, or an appropriate government agency. In every case, use your common sense before beginning or taking the next step; and do not proceed if you have any questions or doubts about any procedure, or the safety of any procedure. Follow all laws and codes, and employ certified or licenced professionals as required by those laws or codes. Hazardous tasks beyond your competence or expertise should also be contracted to professionals. Let's be really careful out there. (c) Copyright 2003 - 2010 Machining and Metalworking at Home The form of the collected work in this text file (including editing, additions, and notes) is copyrighted and this file is not to be reproduced by any means, including electronic, without written permission except for strictly personal use. ============================================================================ Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2001 13:53:56 -0800 From: Roger Van Maren Subject: Re: Paint Match I just stripped down the head stock of my 12" Craftsman this morning**. This lathe has been re-painted 3 times, but under/inside the head stock casting has what appears to be the original paint. This is a very dark grey with a blue tint to it. In my opinion Rust-o-leum is probably the worst quality spray paint out there. It doesn't flow out well. It runs and sags easily, takes forever to cure and isn't all that durable. I use an engine enamel that's sold by NAPA Auto Parts stores. The brand is Martin-Senour. I flows and builds well, seems more durable and just plain looks nicer than most spray paints. The can even sprays in a fan pattern like a real spray gun. (no connection with NAPA... yadda yadda yadda) For my lathe I picked the #7883 grey universal engine enamel. It didn't have the slight blue tint that the original paint showed but was about the right shade of grey. This stuff is a bit more expensive at almost $6 a can but it's worth it. I've got a couple of spray guns that I use for cars and finishing furniture but the convenience of a can and the result I can get with this brand keeps the spray rigs in the cabinet. I strip everything to bare metal and put on 2 coats of paint. No primer necessary. After drying for a few hours everything that fits gets baked in the oven at 200 degrees for 2 hours. This gives a really hard durable finish. I've used this technique on many engines and machine tools with great success. Roger Van Maren ------- Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 13:33:26 -0500 From: "Randy" Subject: Re: Lathe rebuild [SAND BLASTING BEFORE PAINTING - NOTE: ANY SB NEEDS COMPRESSOR 5HP &20GAL MINIMUM] For an inexpensive unit for the home look at the Porta-Power Sandblaster from Wholesale Tool Page 383 of the 2001 catalog. it sells for $19.50. This and a bag of silica sand from you local lumber yard or hardware store and a sot in the yard were it wont hurt to get some sand and your in business. I have a blasting cabinet from when I ran my cycle shop and a Snap-On roll around unit but I don't think either one is any better than the one from Wholesale Tool. Randy ------- Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2001 06:25:03 -0500 From: "Randy" Subject: Re: Lathe rebuild Yep they make even my 5hp 60 gal. work hard but for small jobs even the small compressors will get you by, after all its not production work just small pieces every once in awhile. My biggest problem is to keep the sand dry so it will flow well and not make the compressor work so hard trying to siphon the sand through the nozzle. Also on smaller compressors use the smallest possible nozzle it really make a difference on the amount of air required. I think we are getting way off topic at least I haven't seen any Atlas sand blasters yet.:-) Randy ------- Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2001 15:09:41 -0700 (PDT) From: Jeff Swann Subject: Re: Craftsman 109 series...[ACTUALLY Re: Lathe rebuild] 1 comment on air compressor/receivers sizing On the compressed air tank size...It does'nt matter what size the receiver (tank) is,once the pressure in the recv. drops to the compressor cut-in setting it's the compressors cfm output vs. the cfm usage at the recv. outlet that comes into play. If the usage is than the comp. output, the comp. will be able to run the tool,sand blaster,etc. AND refill the recv. to the cut-out setting.If usage is (more)the comp. will constantly run just to supply air at all, and depending on the comp. design itself (single stage, 2 stage, rotary screw,reciprocating, etc.) it may eventually "run out" of any "real" pressure at all. Where I work, we have 2) Joy /400 HP/ 2 stage/ recip. comp.'s and several 1000 gal. receivers. If we are running 4 Forging press lines at the same time both comp.'s will be at 100% output (4000 cfm) and still the receiver pressures will hover down in the 75 psi range,this shows that the comp. output is really running the show-and the receivers at this point are just excess baggage on the late-nite freight. Regards, Jeff ------- Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 03:35:06 -0000 From: bwright5x~xxneo.rr.com Subject: PAINT MACHINE PAINT.TRY IRON/BLOCK CAST #7250 FROM YOUR NEIGHBORHOOD NAPA AUTO PARTS STORE. LOOKS GOOD. BOB ------- Date: Sat, 6 Apr 2002 07:12:21 -0800 (PST) From: Thomas Kent Subject: Re: Question about fillers [ON CASTINGS BEFORE PAINTING] In doing metal work for many years I find the Devcon products do the best job for filling and repair of castings. Most bearing, or industrial supply houses should be able to supply you with this product. If it is just going to painted over and just cosmetic, bondo is cheap and will work real well. Tommy Kent ------- Date: Sat, 6 Apr 2002 14:58:32 -0800 From: "Bob May" Subject: Re: Re: Question about fillers The bondo is applied just like it's done for automobile stuff. Put some on and sand down and then do it again until the surface is looking good. Then paint. Bob May http://nav.to/bobmay NEW! http://bobmay.astronomy.net ------- Date: Mon, 08 Apr 2002 09:37:56 -0000 From: "markzemanek" Subject: Re: Question about fillers Jan suggested to take a look at: http://homepages.force9.net/tonygriffiths/page14.html Below is the core of the paragraph dealing with the finish on the Raglan lathes. I'm visualizing the tough coat created by the chemical melting process of the thinners. I "think" I've seen this type of finish before...kinda' looks like it was baked on, but then not quite...I'm sure this finish was first class, as the author states. >> The rough castings were prepared with a thick filler paint made by a company called Trimite. The first coat was literally trowelled on, the second coat was painted on and, as it became skin dry, was repainted with cellulose thinners. This had the effect of 'melting' the top coat and allowed it to flow to a smother finish. . This was given overnight to dry and then rubbed down with wet and dry paper. Two more coats were then applied by spraying with a light sanding between coats. The finish consisted of one base coat and two top coats of machine paint. All the products used were made by Trimite and were all cellulose based. Trimite also used to supply Myfords with paint and I believe they still do. The finish on these machines was first class and far exceeded anything that was available on contemporary machines at that time. << ------- Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2002 19:21:56 -0000 From: "outlawmws" Subject: Re: paint > >jerdal wrote > > > > I have restored dozens of shop tools and had excellent luck > > > > with spray cans of Rustolium (spelling may be wrong.) It is > > > > available inmachine gray and many other colors. I normally glass > > > > bead then apply a coat of red oxide primer and a coat of the gray. > > > Any special type of Rustoleum? Any special I have used it, and found > > > that it stayed somewhat soft for a long time compared to other > > > paints. Something to do with the anti-rust oils in it? > >You can bake these enamels with a floodlight and they will harden up > >much quicker. Jon --- In atlas_craftsmanx~xxy..., Ronald Thibault wrote: > After allowing the paint to dry somewhat, I have had very good > results baking, those parts that will fit, in the oven at 140 degrees > or so, for a few hours. (I'm single, others may have to convince their > wife to allow them to do this). Ron Thibault Warrenville, SC USA > Builder Miinie #2 Captain R/C Combat Ship USS Arizona > http://pages.prodigy.net/thibaultr/ Two comments on baking. I also bake parts, but BEFORE painting, not after. What this does is take moisture out of the pores of the metal, espesially castings. I am particular about this especially with automotive parts that will see elevated teperatures as any subsurface agents will literally boil out, taking the paint off with it. I realize most tools will not seee those temps but it does make for much better adhesion of the paint. Om larger parts I will even carfully use a torch or bernzomatic. You can see the moisture come to the surface and evaporate. Try in on a cast iron pan freshly washed and towel dried. Second comment is a caution. It is not a good idea to cure paint in an oven thas will be used for food. Some of the fumes are going to be deposited in the oven and from there could get into your dinner! If you do this often, get a castoff oven from someones kitchen remodel and use that. Just don't warm your dinner in it! This is to my mind a far larger worry than with melting and casting lead, with proper safegards and practices, that has been discussed in the past week or so. My 2cents. -Outlaw ------- Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2002 15:35:43 -0400 From: cw4dtu Subject: Re: Re: paint Please be careful baking Rust-o-leum in an oven. Residual petroleum distillates will settle on your food and hurt you. If you are going to do this, use an old oven you plan to junk or not cook food in! ------- Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2002 12:36:06 -0700 From: "GuyW" Subject: Re: Re: paint Enamel paint can be "baked" in a cardboard box lined with aluminum foil, and powered by a 100W light bulb. -Guy- ------- Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2002 15:03:23 -0500 From: jmark.vanscoterx~xxamd.com Subject: RE: Re: Original Color of My Lathe From: GuyW [mailto:guyiiix~xxcox.net] >>powder coating is melted at about 450 degrees F, IIRC. Eastwood >>company sells a home kit...and it's backed, even in your kitchen oven. >>I wouldn't trust my lathe to any body with a sandblaster....-Guy- > Fred, You and your brother are right, the powder is applied by anelecro-magnetic process (I think that's what "they" call it) and then the part are baked at very high temps. This is why fillers can't be used if powder coating, they would melt off. Dings and dents have to be worked out by hand and/or brazed over,ground and sanded or by using lead. It could be quite the process if your machine is "well seasoned." The powder coaters will do it all for you, i.e., bead blasting and powder coating not the metalwork. It's also a bit pricey but the finish is real nice. I'm seriously thinking about, we'll see when my lathe makes it home...Mo < More about powder coating. . . There are more than one type of powders, toughest is epoxy. The idea behind powder coating is that there is no significant VOC output so it is easier to deal with. It is applied with an electro-static process and will fill many surface imperfection. However, you would need to grind your castings pretty smooth before powder coating to get a decent finish. You can apply a "primer" coating that you then sand and then a final coat, but few ever do. It is a very good finish, but it is not magic. Mark V.S. in Austin, TX ------- Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2002 17:08:02 -0400 From: Brian Green Subject: Re: Re: paint There are some very good, i.e. hard, paints used by the flying folks to paint their flying machines. My neighbor used an HVLP polymer paint on his Pitts and it is hard enough to hit with a hammer without marking. Try Aircraft Spruce at aircraftspruce.com Brian ------- Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 15:36:11 -0000 From: "grassodrafting" Subject: machinery paint [ATLAS GROUP] I have owned and used my clausing vertical mill for 14 years. When I first set the machine up, I painted it with Ben Moore porch and deck enamel (gray). This paint is nearly indestructable. It is worn only from severe abrasion from wrenches. Cutting oils and lubes don't affect it. ------- Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 03:59:39 -0000 From: "mikehenryil" Subject: Re: machinery paint [ATLAS GROUP] FWIW, I painted my 8520 chip pan with Benjamin MooreUrethane Alkyd Gloss Enamel, Base 4, M22 4A. A local paint store custom blended it to a near perfect match for the original paint and the color codes were: RO-1 TG-20 BK-6x2 OY-3x27 Mike, near Chicago ------- Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 18:21:31 -0000 From: "markzemanek" Subject: Re: Before and After Jeff: I recently finished reconditioning my lathe, stripping off the old paint with a gel type paint remover. I recommend this type over the liquid, since it stays where you place it. Be sure to get a pair of chemical resistant gloves, and use eye protection. Steel wool for cleaning the rust from the ways can be found near the paint stripper in the store, and comes in different grades. The finest I've seen is 0000....I used a 000 on my lathe. If you're going to use a wire brush for any part of cleaning, get one with brass bristles; they're much softer than steel. I only used a brush to remove built up gunk from nooks and crannies that I couldn't push the wool into, and even then I was gentle. Splurge on the paint, and buy a good oil based product. I bought a quart (smallest amount they'd sell) of Benjamin Moore's Impervo--it's an alkyd high gloss enamel. It cost me around $14.00 U.S. I went one step further and baked on my paint, to make for a tougher finish, as suggested by other members of this group. I did this by making a wood box that surrounded the lathe, and lined it with aluminum foil. Then I wired in a 200 watt light bulb, and drilled a peep hole into the side of the box, at the level of the ways, so I could see the oven thermometer I place on them. I brought the temperature up around 225 degrees F., and let it cook for a few hours. The finish came out beautifully! You can indeed make your lathe look just as good as the before pictures...it's just a matter of time. Just remember...what's a few weeks when you'll have a lifetime of lathe use when done? For more information, search for the thread "New and blue" in the [ATLAS GROUP] message archives. Best of luck, Mark ------- Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 17:51:59 -0400 From: Stan Stocker Subject: Re: Before and After Hi Jeff; Kerosene is a fairly safe and effective solvent for cleaning, mineral spirits also fit the bill. Any really nasty varnished oil areas that don't respond will come clean with either carburetor (or brake) cleaner, or paint stripper. Rather than trying to grind/sand/brush paint off, there are two nice easy ways to do the job: 1) Parts that fit can go in a hot TSP solution - most paints come off in sheets other than the blue paint used on Emglo compressers) 2) Aircraft paint stripper, which is sold at most auto parts stores in the paint section. Nasty outdoor use stuff, protect your eyes and skin, but it really strips well. The spray cans, although more expensive, seem to cover more area and work better than the liquid you brush on. Weird, not the experience I've had with furniture strippers, but how it seems to work out. A wire wheel isn't too harsh in most applications, I've used them entensively on one old SB lathe from the 20's to smooth the old asphaultum based filler that is untouched by just about all chemicals once the paint was off, to just a tad on a '39 SB9 that was is darn near new condition mechanically, but ugly as a mud fence cosmetically. Everyone seems to have a favorite paint - here's the ones I've used: Rustoleum - too soft Rustoleum Professional - Chips (both brush and spray can versions) and stains (spray can versions) far too easily. I won't be using these again. Rustoleum Hard Hat - better than the other offerings from Rustoleum, but still not as good a paint for tools as some other brands. Krylon Rust Tough - Only the yellow inner bed on the old SB, seems really nice so far, no chips, no stains. Duron modified urethane enamel - on my neighbors '29 SB15. This seems to be a great paint. Hard, shiny, chip resistant, a bit tougher to brush than some other brands, you have to really keep control of your wet edge and not dawdle around getting this stuff on, but with care it flows out very nicely. Both the Duron and Davis primers work well with this paint. This is the paint that's going on the Atlas I'm beginning a restoration on, and on the surface grinder I'm rebuilding. Blue Ridge industrial coatings machinery paint - really nice, but sort of hard to find. Flows well, holds up even on drawer edges under the mill. If I could find it readily I'd use this, but the local Ace is the only place I've ever seen it, and they don't tint it or stock several cans of any one color, so I only use it for small items that I know I can paint without risking a lot number change halfway through the job. I know one dealer who swears by Varathane alkyd enamel, but I haven't used it or seen any of his stuff after a year or two of hard use. Hope this is of some use, Stan ------- Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 13:05:25 -0800 (PST) From: Art Volz Subject: Logan Shaper Color(s) Marty-- I'm sharing this Email with the Metal Shapers group in trying to answer your question: "What color is/was my Logan shaper?" I've gone back into the archives of Scott's other Yahoo group--"lathe-list"--to look for some answers. Scott's answers on colors are specifically Logan lathe colors, but it would be logical to assume that all of Logan branded machine tools, both lathes and shapers, were most likely painted the same color if they were manufactured at the same time. Scott said that Logan lathes produced up into the early '60's were a darkish navy blue-gray and recommended that Graingers' ( http://www.graingers.com ) Dem-Kote blue-gray 5FX11 was a very close match to the original Logan color. (See: http://www.groups.yahoo.com/group/lathe-list/message/55 and http://www.groups.yahoo.com/group/lathe-list/message/2867 The 5FX11 color has been, however, discontinued by Graingers (hazardous) and they recommend the replacement 6MT50 Dem-Kote blue-gray x~xx $2.66 for a 12-oz spray can. (They have also discontinued the 1D469 blue-gray.) I have not seen this 6MT50 color. I have a Logan steady rest and a Logan follower rest for my Logan/Monkey Ward c. 1941 Model 700 10 x 24. They are both dark navy blue gray, and not much gray. If you wish, Marty, I can send you a paint chip from these rests for computerized electronic analysis. My Monkey-Ward branded Logan lathe, however, sports a much lighter meium gray with a tinge of blue and it is its original paint. The gray paint that was used by Logan starting in the mid-fifties is a medium toned gray, offered by many different manufacturers and all would be "right". Joe W's Logan, made in the last 2 years of Logan branded shapers, is a light to medium gray. It appears, from my observation, to be the original factory paint and looks very similar to the later Logan designed shaper when it became the Brodhead-Garrett J-Line. Differences in camera capability and lighting may make the color inexact, however, a feeling for the "lightness" of the gray used can be seen. (I have placed a PIC of the J-Line door in the "Brodhead-Garrett J-Line" album at "photos"; for Marty I have attached a PIC which will be "stripped" from this Email sent to this group.) For a further discussion of this topic, see: http://www.metalworking.com/dropbox/_1998_retired_files/logan2.txt. A paint that I like--a light bluish silver gray--is offered by Rust-oleum in their "hammered" finish which is a nice finish for CI out-of-the-mould. They list this color as their "7212 Light Blue". About a year ago Lowe's, Home Depot, and Sears were clearing this paint off of their shelves: I picked up 2 cases of it, here and there, for about one buck a can. Another nice thing about this particular paint is that it can be applied directly over rust after, of course, wire brushing the surface vigourouslyto to remove the loose stuff. Krylon offers a hammered type paint in a darkish navy blue--it is (was?) carried by K-mart, if you still have one of their stores in your area. Hope this helps, Marty. Your nameplate, with the older styled lettering, indicates that your shaper was likely (my "guesstimate") painted the darkish blue gray color. However, its your shaper and a lighter color is probably more "fashionable" and "politically correct" today: a Rust-oleum "hammered" gold would be especially "spiffy"--I'm going to use that color when (if I ever do) re-paint my newly acquired Lewis horizontal mill, but then...maybe "Popsicle" or "Gothic Purple" would be "prettier" for me. Art (Houston) ------- Date: Tue, 05 Nov 2002 12:15:44 -0500 From: Stan Stocker Subject: Re: Paint for machine tools? [HE HAS A SIMILAR BUT NOT IDENTICAL RESPONSE ABOVE ON 14 JUNE 2002 -- READ THIS ONE ALSO] Hi Steve; I've used quite a few of the paints, my current favorite is Durons' modified urethane enamel. For darker colors use the red oxide primer, for lighter colors the white primer works well, although it is a fairly thin paint. My neighbor did his SB15 with this paint, the finish looks new after a year of fairly frequent use. I'm doing the Atlas 12 with this paint, the job isn't finished but the paint is on the castings and they look good, with a nice gloss appearance. No chips anywhere after plenty of moving things around. The local Duron store used this paint for their shelves, after 5+ years of cans being slid on and off and banged about the shelves still look good. All of the Rustoleum products are either too soft, or stain and chip prone. I used their "professional" paint on my SB13 applied by brush, and the "professional" in spray cans on my SB9. Both looked great, but the 9 has oil stains in the paint and several chips from minor bumps, the 13 has chips, but no stains (so far.) Needless to say I'm less than amused! I think the rustoleum formula changed somewhere along the line, my old 10 inch rotary table and one of my old mill vices were painted with the pro spray maybe 6 years ago, and they still look great. Central Tractors' Farm Implement paint takes an eternity to dry, although the final result is holding up quite well on an older Emglo compressor my neighbor and I rebuilt. The darn paint was still a tad soft four weeks after painting, wish you could still get lead based paints for industrial uses. Blue Ridge Paints' industrial machine paint is very good, although I think this maker is more regional than national. I've used their machine grey on a few things, it is a delight to work with and gives an excellent tough finish. It even holds up on my mill stand drawer edges with very few chips, and those chips are in places where the dings crunched the underlying wood drawer front. It did not chip off past the area of damage, so the paint adheres very well. The local Ace affiliated hardware store in town carries this paint, perhaps a local Ace Hardware could order it if you wanted to use this. Whatever you do, DONT use a rusty metal primer, they stay soft. Krylon Rust Tough seems very good, it dries to a hard shine and seems quite chip and stain resistant. I used their yellow on the interior of the SB13 bed, it's holding up very nicely. Whatever paint you use, use a high quality brush. I've been very happy with the brushes from Wooster. Each brush is $10 to $20, but with careful cleaning and storage will last a long time. A good brush flows out a far better paint film than a utility grade brush. If you would like a bit more detail on prep and priming please drop a line, if you've done this sort of stuff before there's no need to ramble on :-) Cheers, Stan ------- Date: Tue, 05 Nov 2002 17:30:06 -0000 From: "yrotc78u212" Subject: Re: Paint for machine tools? newer machine tools come with colors that are more friendly to the eyes nowadays,shades of white,yellow etc. just do me a favor and dont paint it machine shop slash battle ship gray.it makes you feel like your working in a dungeon.trust me.i`ve been there.if your using a synthetic cutting fluid the paint will eventually come off,oil base cutting oil will usually not effect enamel or epoxy paint.buy the way a brighter color lets you see where the old oil and scuzz dry forcing you to wipe down the machine down more often and oil it.dirt and chips kill machines. mark ------- Date: Tue, 5 Nov 2002 09:58:51 -0800 From: "Bob May" Subject: Re: Paint for machine tools? I've found that paints that take a long time to dry usually need to be put in an oven and heat cured. Some paints, like the exhaust manifold paints for cars, need to have a good 300F or higher just to finally cure correctly into the right finish. The next time you use some of that tractor paint, you may want to throw the part into an oven and bake it for an hour or two at 300F and see what happens to it. Bob May http://nav.to/bobmay NEW! http://bobmay.astronomy.net ------- Date: Tue, 05 Nov 2002 14:17:12 -0500 From: Stan Stocker Subject: Re: Paint for machine tools? Hi Bob: I usually bake the paint on anything that will fit in the oven. The implement paint didn't fully harden even after we baked it. We left it under heat lamps for several hours before we baked. The heat lamps are usually sufficient to cure/dry most paints at least to the "dry enough to handle" point in a few hours. Maybe there is some slow cross linking or something else going on in addition to solvent evaporation with this paint. I didn't expect this sort of behavior from a single part paint, you see it more often with stuff like POR15 when it's very dry, such as in the dead of winter in a forced air heated basement. Even after over a year the paint still feels soft. You can't press a thumbnail into it, it just doesn't give the sharp click of a hard film when you tap it with the nail of your index finger. Exhaust and (some) grill paints do require the high heat to trigger the cure correctly, no doubt about that! Cheers, Stan ------- Date: Tue, 5 Nov 2002 21:35:05 -0600 From: "jerdal" Subject: Re: Paint for machine tools? >I usually bake the paint on anything that will fit in the oven. The >implement paint didn't fully harden even after we baked it. One issue with many paints is "flash time" as I have heard it called. You have to let the paint dry for a time WITHOUT any acceleration from heat. If you don't, you tend to get a hard cured film over partly cured paint. Then the underlying paint takes forever to cure, as it cannot get rid of the last solvents. Even if it crosslinks, it is still softened by the solvents. You need to let all the initial solvents leave (flash off) before heating, etc. Jerry ------- Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2002 07:34:41 -0500 From: Chabannes Rene N Contr ASC/YCD Subject: RE: Paint for machine tools? Paint issues are tough. Just a couple of comments. I'd be careful what I baked as the resulting fumes may not be compatible with your health. Not all top coats are compatible with all primers. This is more than an issue of thinners. I've seen some epoxy coatings that felt a little soft to the fingernail that were very tough and stain resistant. Temperature, humidity, and surface condition are also big players. You probably don't want to leave anything primed very long without painting as the opportunity for contamination and corrosion goes up. If you have access to an industrial paint outlet that stocks small quantities, it would be good to get a "system" that works together. Many of the commercial manufacturers make industrial coatings (Sherwin Williams and Deft come to mind). You probably won't find this stuff in Lowes or home depot. If you are like me, you end up using what you can get. Rene N. Chabannes (Titan) ASC/YC - Productions Operations C-17 SPO, WPAFB, OH 937-255-1042 (DSN 785-1042) ------- Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2002 10:12:49 -0500 From: tttt ccccc Subject: Re: Paint for machine tools? 4-in-1 Epoxy Paint made by: United States Refining Co. Dayton, Ohio I get my cans at a small, independent, "real" hardware store. Been using this stuff for years. Peace Be With Thee, Tim K3HX ------- Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2002 10:14:14 -0800 From: "Bob May" Subject: Re: Paint for machine tools? Mention of epoxy paint reminds me that epoxy is a temperature dependent chemical process. You can slow down the curing of epoxy by doing it in a cold enviroment and then heating it to about 150F or so to cure it fast. I might also note that the flow rate also goes up with the temperature. I've made JBWeld go off in 15 minutes by heating! I will note that there is some slight strength decrease if you go too fast. Bob May http://nav.to/bobmay NEW! http://bobmay.astronomy.net ------- Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2003 10:59:02 -0600 From: "LEW BEST" Subject: RE: What kind of paint do you use? From: jeffbenetti >>> I'm fixing up a couple of machines. Yes one of them is a shaper!! :-) I would like to hear from anyone who has recomendations for types of paint to use. Especially if you know of a type of paint to not use. Left to my own devices I would probably use a rust paint. Thanks Jeff PS:Sorry if this has already been asked on this newsgroup. <<< Hi Jeff: I like an enamel that comes from the TSC (Tractor Supply Co.) stores for painting anything that's metal. It is an old fashioned enamel that thins and cleans up with old fashioned mineral spirits. It sprays (using a spray gun) easier without leaving runs, etc. than anything else I've ever tried. Also, it's cheap! Costs something less than $20 per gallon. Only drawback is that it only comes in a few colors. Black, white, maybe brown (don't recall for sure) plus all of the common tractor colors. I'm not very "adventurous" on machine colors so I use Ford tractor gray like the old 8N Fords were painted. Other colors I use for other purposes are IH white (almost perfectly matches Maytag almond) for our washing machine and dryer fronts at the laundromats, painted my Ford Bronco IH red & white (2 tone), and several other things Ford blue, Allis Chalmers orange, etc. The resulting finish is shiny & quite tough. HTH. Lew ------- Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2003 11:14:06 -0600 From: "Harry" Subject: Paint Jeff: By far the best I have found, is the two part epoxy. It brushes on with a minimum of brush marks. Label says it can be sprayed, but I don't risk it in my gun, once it hardens nothing removes it. It is not affected by solvents or oils and is very hard to chip. The only problem I found is the cost. My local dealer only sells it in one gallon cans. (One gallon of each part.) $101.00 Not a lot of colors, six, I think. Who needs two gallons of paint. But on the plus side, the shelf life is several years, and good auto paint (my second choice) is $50 plus a gallon, more when you add in the harder and thinner, primers,etc. If you don't mind constant touchups, the Rustoleum paints, yea I know they don't like being called paint! "protective coating" is a good value for the money. Good luck! ------- Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2003 12:37:32 -0500 From: "Merril Mabon" Subject: Re: What kind of paint do you use? Jeff, I'll second all the statements below. You can't do better than the tractor enamels for quality and price. You may find they are a little "soft" and easily marred the first few days, but they get harder and more durable in time. If you can stay away from the paint for a few days, it is best. Merril ------- Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2003 00:34:59 -0000 From: "dreilanderecht " Subject: Re: What kind of paint do you use? I haven't painted any of my machines myself yet, but I rather like the paint used by Bill Yemm who did up my Alba 1a before I bought it. It is done in a light hammerglaze blue, which looks really nice and is an encouragement to clean it up after use. The vice is painted to match, appropriately enough since it is an original. I doubt if hammerglaze blue was the original finish although you never know. The insides of T slots and slides (eg inside the cross-slide) is painted red, which does seem as if it might be an original feature since the other Alba has the remnants of this too. I have a couple of machines that came new in an off white colour, this also tends to encourage cleaning up. Lots of older machines were done in gray and I think this is actually a disincentive to cleaning them properly. I'm going to have to do a proper job on my "new" Alba 4S since that is gray, and the paint is flaking off badly in places. This is a bit of a daunting prospect...for a smaller machine I would take off parts that don't need painting and thus reduce any masking and so on to a minimum. How do people usually proceed with painting these larger machines? I suppose for some purists, they must be in the original colours, but I have these machines to use, and I also think that lighter colours contribute to safety. regards John ------- Date: Tue, 08 Apr 2003 15:00:06 -0000 From: "lkasdorf" Subject: "Authentic" Atlas paint colors?? When I restore my Atlas 7B shaper and MF mill, I would ideally like to put them back to their original colors. I just like restoring things to the way they looked way back when... On the inside of the shaper's removable door is what I'm pretty sure is its original color. Somewhere in its life somebody painted it with what looks like Rustoleum Smoke Gray, using a brush :( The original color is a light gray that is almost tan. I don't know if this was used on lathes at some point, but I suspect it was. My MF mill, which appears to be a bit older, is a darker gray (under a nearly inpenetrable layer of grime). Has anybody come up with a good source for matching colors? Yes, I can take the piece to a paint store and have them custom mix, but if there is an off-the-shelf paint that is close, I'd much rather go that way. If I can't find a good match, I may just go with Rustoleum Light Machinery Gray, which is a little tannish, but not as much so as the real deal. ------- Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2003 11:49:13 -0400 From: "Richard Farris" Subject: Re: "Authentic" Atlas paint colors?? I'm in the process of restoring an old MH hand feed mill and am using the Smoke gray you just referenced. I'm brushing it on with a soft wide artist's brush. I've taken off the old putrid green that someone put on, by scraping and wirebrushing down thru all layers to the base metal. If you find out what the original color or a reference to it, I'd like to know what it might be. The smoke gray seems to be a bit lighter than the original might have been. Dick Farris ------- Date: Tue, 08 Apr 2003 13:03:19 -0400 From: Damon Gentile Subject: Re: "Authentic" Atlas paint colors?? I did a complete teardown on a 1941 10" lathe last night. It's darker green with touchups of a lighter shade of green. The headstock clamp and bolt were light grey. Later model bed for it (seperate machine) is a much darker grey. -Damon ------- Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2003 10:06:08 -0700 (PDT) From: kndroy Subject: Re: "Authentic" Atlas paint colors?? If you look at my Logan I'm working on... http://www.geocities.com/kndroy/loganlathe.html This is Dem-Kote Blue-Grey. It is from Grainger and Scott Logan of Logan lathes says it's very close to the original Logan color. I don't know if close is good enough for you but at least this gives you an idea how it looks on a machine. Atlas seems to be slightly Greener but is close to this color. Dave ------- Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2003 15:02:54 -0400 From: "Richard Farris" Subject: Re: "Authentic" Atlas paint colors?? Dave: Thanks for the pictures. That Dem-Kote Blue gray looks good. You're right - the Atlas is " greener " but I like that Blue-Gray better. I think I"ll hike over to the local Grainger store and get me some. Thanks for sharing - BTW -Nice work on the Lathe - It looks good. Make more Chips!!! Dick Farris ------- Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2003 14:14:38 -0000 From: "lkasdorf" Subject: looking for "Timken Bearing Equipped" logo art Ok, this is totally cosmetic and has nothing to do with functionality. I'm restoring an Atlas 7B shaper and an MF mill. Now that I find that it is possible to make your own water slide decals, I'd like to attempt to replicate the cool "Timken Bearing Equipped" decal on these machines. The one on the shaper is in moderately ok condition, but the edges and the top were crudely painted over with a brush, years ago by some hapless "restorer". I figure that I can take a good digital photo of the art, pull it into photoshop, and try to reconstruct the logo from what I have. Unfortunately, the upper healf of the roller bearing drawing is gone, so, I'll have to reconstruct that. I was hoping to find a similar "edge-on" photo of a roller bearing at McMaster Carr, but their photo is a different perspective. What I'm hoping is that somebody out there has some printed document with this entire logo, or maybe just the bearing picture, that they could scan and send. If I do this, I'll make the final artwork available to everybody on this forum. Alternatively, if somebody has one of these machines with the logo in good shape, and can take a good quality photo of it, that would be a big help as well. A suitable photo would have to be done on a tripod, carefully lit to avoid glare, not skewed, and quite close-up and in focus. I'm not asking for much, am I? :) I'm thinking that it may be possible that an old box that a timken bearing was packaged in may have some relavent art as well. Thanks much- Lynn Kasdorf ------- Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 13:18:07 -0500 From: "WDSmith" Subject: patina removal >>Is there a good , non invasive way to clean the unpainted surfaces such as dials,beds, etc ? I know that any abrasive is out,any suggestions? There is no heavy rust, just the "patnia" black surface that accumulates over time w/o use.<< Why? You are most likely dealing with a "precision surface" which is probably precise to +/- 0.0005 at the very best and often closer to +/- 0.003". Proper abrasive cleaning would require hours or days to remove 0.0005" of metal and any moderately light rubbing with somethng like white or red polishing (rubbing) compound is unlikely to remove a measurable amount of metal and you would certainly have to do determined labor to remove enough to have any measurable or noticable effect on the machine. Note that "precision" is a relative term. Precision in reference to a dump truck has far different meaning than precision in a Swiss watch. If you are talking in terms of ordinary hobby-grade machines, precision is not that precise. You do want to take care to avoid changing relationships between mating surfaces, and alatering non-adjustable fits. This is typically only a concern when using power assisted abrasive cleaning. You usually get tired long before you can do any damage when working strictly with elbow grease. WDSmith ------- Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 17:24:08 -0700 (PDT) From: kndroy Subject: Re: patina removal --- John & Nancy Griffin wrote: > What Im cleaning up is a bridgeport that has been > sitting for 8 yrs or so. I'm going over it with stoddard and then > a power wash to see what I've really got. DA sanding all the paint > to smooth it up, the degreaser before paint. That power wash will do more damage than the abrasive cleaner! If you do power wash it, plan on taking it down to the bolt! Just get yourself some kerosene and some Scotch Bright pads and go at it. Dave ------- Date: Tue, 08 Jul 2003 04:25:20 -0700 From: "Marty Escarcega" Subject: Re: SB 7" Shaper I've been working on On 8 Jul 2003 at 8:28, Metal_Shapersx~xxyahoogroups.com wrote: > Date: Mon, 7 Jul 2003 16:31:43 -0400 > From: "R. Farris" > Subject: Re: SB 7" Shaper I've been working on > Marty, Nice job. You've put in a lot of work to bring that one back. > Looks like you used a slightly lighter shade of gray paint. Could you > let the group know what brand and shade? Thanks Dick Farris Atlas 7B I'm not "anal" when it comes to paint colors. Its an industrial enamel called Shaf-Lac made by Ellis Paint. Its called Medium Gray. Since I do the sand blasting in my blasing cabinet, I can control pressures etc. Usually sensitive areas are just masked in a couple layers of masking tape or duct tape. Sand Blasting at low pressures does not remove layers of metal. The other trick to polishing is I used woven abrasives, better known as Scotch Brite pads with a small amount of abrasive added when they are manufactured. They are only aggressive enough to polish the metal. I also use the same in a ROLOC disc on my cheapie right angle die grinder. All can be had from MSC. Got a new motor installed in it last night and all the electrics done. I need to make new felt wipers and finish up the countershaft assembly and put the machine on its base and do some adjusting and set the oil pump and she'll be done. Other similar rehabs can be seen on my web page: http://members.cox.net/escarcega I really enjoy doing this sort of work. Just find I am very short on time these days. Sadly this took me better than 6 months to get to! :-( Marty ------- Date: Wed, 09 Jul 2003 01:55:19 -0000 From: "jwelsh1054" Subject: Re: SB 7" Shaper I've been working on Marty: Nice job!! Can you expand a little on how you got the steel components polished so nicely? I assume that you used the Scotch Brite pads and the ROLOC disc for this work?? But, for instance, what grits do you use? What size of pads? How do you use the Scotch Brite pads - in a grinder? a drill? by hand? How do you keep the polished metal surfaces from getting a quick return of surface rust?? Thanks, John in OH ------- Date: Wed, 09 Jul 2003 23:50:26 -0000 From: "Marty Escarcega" Subject: Re: SB 7" Shaper I've been working on Ok, letting out tricks of the trade here. :-) These are MSC Industrial Part numbers; you can go to MSC's Website for more info. The Roloc Surface Conditioning Discs are 3M Brand, you get whatever you have the holder for, hook and loop, Screw On, etc. I use Hook and Loop. I use 2" Maroon for tarnished metal 00319442 .72 each I use 2" Brown for rusty metal 00319434 .81 each For the bench grinder, I put two of these together on the shaft: These are SUPER GREAT for polishing rusty shafts, small tables, nuts bolts etc. 00319921 6"x1/2" Maroon A-MED 3M Hight Strength Disc $3.83ea For large rusted tables (see my web page on the Woodworking on my 16" Walker Turner Bandsaw table) I use on my 7" variable speed Makita Sander/Grinder with Hook and loop backing pad: 00319749 Grade SXCS 7 3M Coating Removal Disc $14.73ea That's it in a nutshell. Of course I use a sand blast cabinet to get all the layers of paint off first. Hope you guys buy a few of the above and give them a go. They sure have been great time savers for me and work wonders. Marty ------- Date: Wed, 09 Jul 2003 23:52:57 -0000 From: "Marty Escarcega" Subject: Re: SB 7" Shaper I've been working on > Well, it might have taken you six months to get a "round tuit" but > you seem to get a lot done in a short time when you do get going. Well, part of that is that it helps to remember how things came apart. I use small plastic parts bins and keep like parts or components of unit grouped together. I also use new fasteners when possible. Lots faster to put in a new bolt/nut than trying to clean and old one. Having the right equipment was lesson learned and actually makes the rehab projects more enjoyable. I have a Rockwell Vertical Mill to finish. Its been sitting for over a year, time to get it done and get it sold. :-) Marty ------- Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2003 05:16:01 -0700 From: "Marty Escarcega" Subject: Re: Digest Number 560 > Thanks for the good info, Marty. I'll give the Scotch Brite a try. > Just one more question regarding your trade secrets - how do you keep > the polished steel from rusting overnight?? Here in Ohio, the > humidity ruins polished steel in a day. John Well, true, we don't have that sort of problem really here in AZ. I just wipe everything down with a cloth with oil on it. There are some rust preventatives out there, Boeshield? and some others. Else you might anodize or have the parts plated (except for machined ways of course) Marty ------- Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2003 08:30:10 -0500 From: xlch58x~xxswbell.net Subject: Re: Re painting lathe If you want a lasting finish, two part epoxies are hard to beat. I use a lot of krylon and rustoleum, but find them inferior for machine tools due to the daily contact with solvents, oils and hard steel objects. Its great for your patio furniture, not so good for a lathe. A cheap touch up gun will do a good job on a lathe or mill. particularly if you are painting each piece as it is reworked. For a really nice finish on cas iron, brush on a thinned down body filler over the whole surface and then sand smooth before primer. The only hassle about the epoxy paints is that you have to work quick and clean up good, because they will set up in the gun. Charles ------- Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2003 10:56:47 -0400 From: "mertbaker" Subject: Re: Re painting lathe Rustoleum is for painting rusty stuff so it will stop rusting. It works real good for that, if not everything else. Krylon is for model airplanes. You need machinery paint. Mert ------- Date: Sat, 30 Aug 2003 17:29:13 -0400 (EDT) From: x xx Subject: Re: Re: Atlas Lathe Restoration Questions... A thought, never used it in this application, so it's only a thought - if you like a gloss finish, try marine enamel. ME applied over its proper undercoast and primer is hard as little nails in about 36 hours, tack dry in, oh say, four. Normally, an etch is applied before the undercoast to give tooth. ME is formulated to stand up the the very corrosive, abrasive ocean environment and I think it just might work because the only time I've ever seen it suffer from a petroleum product was a spill of dyed gas onto a six hour old deck. The white picked up a pink tint, but didn't dissolve! My own preferred brand is Interlux, but there are many other good ones, depending on where you live. Make sure tho' that you get it from a chandler's who deals with real seafaring folk. You can buy stuff labelled "Marine Enamel" down at the old corner hardware store, but it ain't! It's just glossy exterior house paint. Sam ------- Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2003 15:51:21 -0000 From: "pietdriver03" Subject: restoration I own a paint business and the only product you should be considering is a two part poly or epoxy paint. Theses are the ultimate in gloss and durability. They do not chip easily and are very chemically resistant. Even if you spill paint stripper and wipe it off nothing will happen! Endura is one of the best and can be brushed on or sprayed and it comes in ANY colour your heart desires. The battle ship grey of the Atlas is a stock colour. Wayne ------- Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2003 22:35:45 -0700 From: "keith green" Subject: Re: Coating Subject: [Metal_Shapers] Coating >>> Can you guys tell me what the red coating painted on internal machine tool parts that are exposed to oil, is, and where can I get it. Carl <<< Far as I know it's a paint made by these guys http://www.glyptal.com/ At work we just call it "Glyptal". We paint the inside if gearboxes with it to seal the cast iron from the oil in the box. The iron can be somewhat porous and sometimes there are sand inclusions in the iron which may come out under the stress of use. I don't know the exact product off the top of my head but you should be able to find it in their list there somewhere. Keith Green Vancouver, BC ------- Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 21:11:56 -0000 From: "tetrapode2003" Subject: Sandblasting alternative Hi guys, I am currently restoring an old Invictia 2MR Shaper and I found that to get rid of the old paint there is nothing like cheap brake fluid. I just brush it on and let it work overnight. The next day, I brush the paint with a soft brass wrire brush.It peels off easily. Maybe you guys already know that but I wanted to share that tip, Regards, Leonard ------- Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 18:58:21 -0500 From: "Mario L Vitale" Subject: Re: Sandblasting alternative Leonard: That's brilliant! That was a lesson I learned (the hard way) many years ago...but seemed to have forgotten. I'll bet I'm not the only one who dribbled a little brake fluid on a fender and discovered how quickly it softened the paint! Thanks for the reminder. Mario ------- Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2003 17:35:03 -0000 From: "Art Volz" Subject: Brake Fluid Paint Eaters: Re: Sandblasting alternative DOT 3 and DOT 4 brake fluids eat paint. I don't know what all the goodies are that constitute these 2 type fluids, but if I were to use either of them I would wear a breathing mask with the proper filters and rubber gloves...and I would do it outside where the fumes would rapidly dissapate (sp?), move into the upper atmosphere, and thence gobble up the ozone. I would also avoid any and all chlorinated cleaners and paint removers as they are known to cause cancers. If you can acquire a needle scaler, HF or a quality one, its use (with eye protection) should be safer than the use of chemicals. There are many car fix-'em-up chemical products that will remove both paint and lung tissue. One that was popular amongst skeet shooters-- might still be--was aerosol sprayed carburetor cleaner (most are chlorinated) that the shooters would spray into their auto shotguns' gas operating systems to remove built-up carbon deposits. Those having Remington automatic scatter-guns soon learned that it would also remove the fancy high gloss finish from their shotguns' forearms and butt stocks. I've also heard that most brands of imported Sicilian Chianti will work wonders as both paint removers and on "moving" the person doing the paint removing. :-) Art (Houston North: S'ghetti for lunch???) ------- Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2003 11:53:04 -0000 From: "ellcap" Subject: Affordable Needle Scaler Joe Guidry was kind enough to suggest I use a needle scaler for paint removal for my 8" Logan shaper project (Thanks Joe!). Since this was a tool I didn't own, the search began. To my surprise, the price range was from $65 to $486! Looking through the Harbor Freight Tools website for something else, I found a "needle scaler attachment" that fits a standard air impact hammer for $9.99! I bought this along with an import hammer for an additional $9.99 and put them to work. The outcome was great. I usually buy quality tools when necessary. This $20 solution just knocked my socks off so I thought I'd pass the information along. Just in case you are wondering, I have no connection with Harbor Freight Tools. Enjoy! ellcap ------- Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2003 09:55:45 -0800 From: Peter Linss Subject: Re: Re: Questions on finishing pliers >I haven't used it, but I have seen the cans of material that you dip >pliers in and it gives a coating similar to the commercially done items. >It comes in several colors. Think it was at Home Depot or might have >been Lowes or maybe Menards. Ron Roske That stuff's called "PlastiDip". It comes in both cans to dip in and now a spray as well. If you go for the dipping variety make sure to seal the top of the can perfectly after opening it (the lid it comes with doesn't do it) or it will dry out and become useless in a few weeks. The spray lasts until it's out and works well. You have to use several thin coats and let dry for several hours between coats, but it works well. Depending on the store it may be located in either the paint department (with all the specialty sprays, like textures) or in the tool department. Peter ------- NOTE TO FILE: Wear full protective gear and exercise extreme caution when heating any chemical, always!!! ------- Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2004 10:34:59 -0800 From: Alan Rothenbush Subject: Re: Painting Cast Iron For the rebuild of both my recently purchased old Southbend lathe and little Sanford Surface Grinder, I made up my own hot tank out of a two burner hot plate and a _large_ enamel turkey pan. In it went tap water and TSP. Part was inserted and allowed to boil. Two or sometimes three solutions were required, as the paint and grease "polluted" the solution. For the _really_ grungy parts, some wire brushing was required. Eventually a boil of a part in clean TSP resulted in still clean TSP. The part was removed, allowed to cool a bit and and then washed/rinsed in hot clean water. Removing it from the water allowed things to rust very quickly (indicating - to me - a high degree of cleanliness). So I would towel and blow it dry and begin to paint almost immediately. The paint seems to stick _very_ well. Perhaps this is the paint used, perhaps it's the cleanliness, perhaps the surface was etched ever so slightly by the TSP. Don't know and don't care .. the setup works so well that I'm going to turn it into a more permanent arrangement. One little note .. beware using this scheme on "pot metal" (and perhaps aluminum as well). The surface gets _severely_ blackened. The black does scrub off, with a lot of work, but it's a _lot_ of work, and I suspect that if left to boil long enough, the part would disappear. Alan ------- Date: Sat, 14 Feb 2004 23:16:31 EST From: LouD31M066x~xxaol.com Subject: Re: Paint color Judging by past comments choosing a color is least of your problems. Paint must resist staining by oil and also set up or harden in a reasonable time frame. "Usual Suspect" paints apparently give little satisfaction. Louis ------- NOTE TO FILE: Louis' comment is borne out by others' experiences here. ------- Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2004 17:47:24 -0000 From: "johnjach2001" Subject: sandblasting cast parts Just bought an Atlas/Craftsman 3980 lathe and I want to restore it. I want to bring all the cast iron parts back to bare metal for repainting. Is it possible to remove remove all parts from the headstock, tailstock, and carriage? This would make sandblasting much easier. ------- Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2004 15:09:10 -0500 From: xlch58x~xxswbell.net Subject: Re: sandblasting cast parts Make sure that you put tape over all of the machined surfaces before blasting. Typically, blasting is not the preferred method since it is hell on machined surfaces and you have to make sure you get all of the sand out. Years ago I used to have them hot tanked by a friend that was an engine builder. It is a caustic lye solution that pretty much removes all grease and paint. You may find someone in your area that can do this. Charles ------- Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2004 21:23:28 +0100 From: "Nigel Spurr" Subject: Re: sandblasting cast parts I used standard chemical paintstripper with no complaints at all after dismantling and degreasing. I would not shotblast because you must be certain to clear all debris. Also, on an oily surface it is not very effective and the shot sticks to the oil. After paintstripping, I used acid alloy wheel cleaner which is a solution of 30% phosphoric and 5% hyrochloric acid to give a slight etch to the surface. Paint used was oil based chromate matal primer, 3 brushed coats of oil based coach enamel undercoat, rubbed down between each coat then 2 coats of topcoat. Some of the cast surfaces after this tratment look smoooth. Hard work but worth it. To make life even easier there are paints around that can be used to "fill" castings to render cast surfaces smooth. Have fun! Nigel ------- Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2004 19:14:11 -0500 From: "TONY CLARK" Subject: Touch up paint Has anyone discovered a good match for the original Atlas-Craftsman paint in a "rattle can"? I've tried "Rust Master and Krylon and they aren't even close. Tony in Texas ------- Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2004 22:53:02 -0500 From: "Scott J Janson" Subject: RE: Touch up paint Tony, I have a 10" Atlas QC54 and I have good luck with a product called Premium RUST-OLEUM it is a Gloss Protective Enamel. The color is #7784 CHARCOAL GRAY. spider5911 Scott ------- Date: Sat, 7 Aug 2004 12:25:27 -0400 From: "Bill Hardin" Subject: RE: Touch up paint Krylon's Universal Gray isn't too far off, darker gray. Bill Hardin http://www.homeshopsupply.com Craftsman 109 Lathe Support ------- Date: Tue, 09 Aug 2005 13:01:36 -0000 From: "kennynucklehead" Subject: Re: Kenny's Late 30's Craftsman Lathe Restoration In atlas_craftsmanx~xxyahoogroups.com, "drifter1951" wrote: > I've just started on my 1941 10F TV54 ... everything apart for > cleaning and re-paint - but all I've managed to do is clean and > prime one leg ... LOL, it will get done eventually ...Drifter Suggest you purchase a fresh roll of 1/2 in. wide masking tape from a body paint supply shop and get a good razor knife. Take the time to mask off all milled surfaces and interlocking slide, fitting surfaces on your parts. I also either use spare machine screws/bolts or the originals to protect all threaded holes. The screws/bolts can be removed after painting and then emersed in a can of solvent/gasoline for 10 minutes or so ant the fresh paint comes off completely. On some of the larger holes I want to protect, I used short sections of wooden dowel rods, occasionally built up slightly with masking or electrical tape as "plugs". I simply used a decent quality enamel primer and topcoat in spray cans and find when dry a few days the paint has been quite durable and resistant to oils. Wouldn't want to flood the painted surfaces with strong solvents for a while. Kenny ------- Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 00:55:11 -0000 From: "sauer38h" Subject: Re: Kenny's Late 30's Craftsman Lathe Restoration > cleaning and re-paint - but all I've managed to do is clean and > prime one leg ... LOL, it will get done eventually ... Why not paint that one leg something really ghastly, like purple or pink or yellow, and call it done. Then whenever you look at that leg, you'll congratulate yourself for not painting the rest of the lathe. More psychology, less paint. ------- NOTE TO FILE: There was a question in the taigtools group on 18 Dec 2005 with regard to strange "scuff marks" found on the underside of the Taig lathe saddle. They were in fact crude factory additions to hold lubricant. Once the discussion got more general as to how to scrape metal contact surfaces, further comments were transferred here for the benefit of any tool owner needing better lubrication or flattening. ------- Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2005 08:48:52 -1000 (HST) From: benedict-listx~xxhawaii.rr.com Subject: Re: scuff marks on the ways - normal or defect? [taigtools] To digress: For anyone interested in hand scraping (the process of making a surface extremely flat) and flaking (the process of making oil pockets in machine ways), I wholeheartedly recommend checking out Michael Morgan's site: http://www.machinerepair.com I've got the Basic Scraping book, the Basic Hand Scraping video, and an Anderson tube scraper. All of these have been invaluable in my project of restoring a Lewis 10" shaper from the tool graveyard. (A project I can get back to in the near future, thank goodness.) The process of flaking can be as crude or as refined as you might like. Most machine ways, even on the really nice machines, were done by hand, by eye, and quite quickly. (The results are also gorgeous.) It takes some practice, but it's entirely doable. On at least one Bugatti restoration site I've seen, the flaking marks during restoration were laid out very carefully on a penciled grid. I'm not sure if this reflects Bugatti factory standards at the time, but it does result in extremely regular results. If you're learning to scrape and flake for the first time, your best friend aside from a scraper and a surface plate is a chunk of gray cast iron to practice on. Unslotted angle plates work great. Once you find out how straightforward the process is, everything starts looking like a surface in need of flatness and flaking. Though utterly and completely unnecessary, every flat machined surface on my shaper is going to wind up scraped and flaked. As with the Bugatti engines, the scraping on these non-way surfaces will be strictly decorative. But ooooh are they ever decorative. And since this whole project is as much a labor of love as it is a way to get a 10" shaper into my shop, I don't mind spending the time. Tom ------- Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2005 16:57:24 -0800 From: "Paul W. Chamberlain" Subject: Re: scuff marks on the ways - normal or defect? >For those of us unfamiliar with the process and its results, do you have >any images of such decorative surfaces? Dave K How's this? http://www.lathes.co.uk/rivett/page2.html http://www.lathes.co.uk/rivett/page3.html Paul, Central OR ------- Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2005 01:45:33 -0000 From: "campgems" Subject: Re: scuff marks on the ways - normal or defect? Paul, and Dave, if you look close at the examples, these are all functional slide areas. While the scraping marks may look decorative, they are functional. The "skuff Marks" are a bad attempt to what we called fish hooks. After the ways were scraped to the desired flatness, we went back and put a pattern of fish hooks in for what has accurately been described as Oil traps. Note that these were done on upper surfaces, and were only a couple of tenths deep. We usually went in with a circular gouge and cut some serious oil grooves in a Z pattern on the upper part of the assemply, IE a saddle on a lathe. Junk settles on the ways and the wipers will take most of it off. You didn't want anything that would trap grit or chips, so the fish hooks were very shallow. Decorative finish was usually in the form of fish scales. Don ------- Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2005 23:03:28 -1000 (HST) From: benedict-listx~xxhawaii.rr.com Subject: Re: scuff marks on the ways - normal or defect? Not handy, but I can take some pictures of surfaces I've done. Meanwhile, here's the Bugatti page: http://leydonrestorations.com/Zwords/92PurSang/92pursang.html Tom P.S. From what Michael Morgan said, using an old file as a scraper is rough on the hands, back, shoulders, etc. This is one reason I opted to buy a tube scraper, which is much longer than any file I own. I'm 100% pleased I went this route, considering the back problems I've had in the past. And considering the pictures on that site, I'm glad for my hands as well. ------- Re: Beyond crud [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: "jmartin957x~xxaol.com" jmartin957x~xxaol.com Date: Fri Jun 23, 2006 6:47 am (PDT) One thing to keep in mind when contemplating chemical stripping or blasting is that many older machines had a filler coat under the paint. The filler was often a heavy black asphaltum-like material that filled casting holes and smoothed out rough casting surfaces. Strip the paint and you'll strip the filler too, and you may not like the look of the casting without filler. Some people replace it with a light coat of Bondo or similar auto body filler. That said, I am not sure whether any of the Atlas machines used a filler coat. If any did, it was probably only the older ones. During WWII, most manufacturers discontinued the filler coat to increase their production rates, and you'll often see WWII machines with a "war finish" tag on them. Hand tools as well, with chrome or nickel plating replaced by cadmium, zinc or paint. I'll admit I'm mixed on refinishing anyway. If there's any rust, I'll do it. Or, if I have a machine apart anyway. My horizontal mill weighs about a ton, and I had to break it down to move it and get it into the basement, so it's all nicely painted now. The old Rhodes shaper has a nice machinery gray cast iron base now, but the main casting, table and ram are still the original Rhodes black. The surface grinder is the same bright green it was when I got it, although I did strip and repaint the rusting cast iron legs. They match the top, which still has a factory-stenciled number on it - I'm guessing from Grumman or one of the other aircraft factories. The green is by no means the original color, but it's part of the machine's history and it doesn't bother me at all. The band saw is not the original Delta gray but a rather hideous orange that was applied with a brush in the foundry that had it before I did. The Parks planer had some rust, so that's now a nice machine gray. The rest have their original finishes, including the Atlas lathe (with its blue replacement compound slide, which constantly reminds me to back it off when boring or parting - so that's a "good" thing...). One pro for refinishing. Breaking a machine down into its component parts, and stripping those to bare metal, is a great way to get to know the machine intimately and to find any cracks, bad bearings, loose parts, etc. For cleaning, I have generally used Gunk SC. It's a soap concentrate that you mix about 1:10 with kerosene. The kerosene cuts the crud; the concentrate allows it to be hosed off with water. Haven't been able to find it recently, although I know they still make it. 5F5 stripper for heavy paint. Hand wire brush, and a knotted wire brush in the angle grinder for large surfaces. Followed all up with purple cleaner. John Martin ------- Re: Beyond crud Posted by: "n8as1x~xxaol.com" n8as1x~xxaol.com Date: Fri Jun 23, 2006 3:56 pm (PDT) John ...i am feeling a lot better now after ur post ...when i look at my 1893 hacksaw & 1920? handmill painted int.harvester red,also the 14 in 1895 reed lathe w/ "hideous orange "...rest of the stuff is either grey or sears blue gray .oh yeah , green china bandsaw...truth is ,w/time, i actually have come to like the the bright colors ... best wishes docn8as ------- Re: My lathe, together at last. [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: "Stanley, Joey" joey.stanleyx~xxnov.com Date: Wed Apr 23, 2008 7:00 am ((PDT)) "porscheman54" james.ricex~xxgmail.com wrote: > Looks good Joey. I can't wait until Saturday when I pick up my TH54. I've noticed a lot of personal choices about paint colors. Yours' are bright, I've noticed blues, a lot of "machine tool gray". My 618 is painted in dark gray Hammertone paint and I'll probably paint the TH54 in the same paint. I bought several cans of other colors of Hammertone, so I've been refinishing some bench grinders and other tools in various shades of the same paint. Not that they are going to stay all chip free and shiny after some use, but I can start out good looking. I personally like the John Deere look. Brings back memories of my dad's old "Poppin Johhny" and my grandfathers' farms. < James: I have given paint colors some thought. I like the thought of having everything painted the same color because it looks professional. I originally was going to go with Safety Blue, but my son loves the color green so that is what I started with on the drill press. Getting the lathe already painted yellow kind of changed my mind. I now think lighter bright colors are the way to go because of lighting. A light silver Hammertone would be nice. I have an old Ford valve cover hanging on the wall that I painted Hammertone and it looks nice. My color choice also had a lot to do with identification; if my tools are ever stolen it will be easy to identify them if they are painted a non-standard color. When and if I find that I am happy with the performance and setup of the lathe I will pull it apart again for a repaint as well as building a stronger bench. Joey ------- Re: Colors [Metal_Shapers] Posted by: "Mike" 57chevywagonmanx~xxsbcglobal.net Date: Sat Jun 28, 2008 4:54 am ((PDT)) "Tim Coppage" wrote: > Does anyone know where to find out about the original colors of the > South Bend and Logan shapers? South Bend machines were almost always gray. They could be ordered in any custom color you desired, to match the other machines in your shop. I have never seen any original machines painted any color but gray. Logans were most likely gray as well. Unless it is a Powermatic Logan. Then it would be a dark green. Mike ------- Re: Colors Posted by: "ptkeillor3" keillorp135x~xxchartermi.net Date: Sat Jun 28, 2008 7:10 am ((PDT)) My Logan 8" has the original paint, but it apparently dates from 1952, so it might have faded over the years. I couldn't find a picture, but it's a dark blue-grey. I think they changed to a more typical grey later. At least a couple accessories I picked up later are grey. Pete Keillor ------- Re: Colors Posted by: "Jim B." btdtrfx~xxverizon.net Date: Sat Jun 28, 2008 7:54 am ((PDT)) Well I am not sure about the Shaper but here is the skinny on the South Bend lathe colors. There were three, although SB purchased their paint from many vendors and it did vary from vendor to vendor, Before (about) 1934 the lathes were black. This was not really a paint but a finish process called Japanning. Between 1934 and 1939 (about) This is the color used. http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3169/2618529990_f78c65a008_o.jpg That formula is from Dennis Turk who has restored many old SB lathes. After that here is the mixture. This section came from the Yahoo SB group Archives. This is from 2001. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I took a part to my local Benjamin Moore paint dealer and the put the part under a color analyzer, and the following is a dead match to my color. The paint is Benjamin Moore Urethane Alkyd Industrial Enamel tinted as follows: M22-3B + OY-4, BK-28, BB-2, GY-4, WH-1X Per Quart. It really looks like battleship grey to me. I'm not sure, but you may be able to spray this paint on, thinning it and using a gun. Last night I pre-brushed a very light coat of mineral spirits onto the compound casting and then flowed a coat of paint with a brush. The mineral spirits helps the paint flow and eliminates brush marks. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I understand that SW has renamed their paint and it is Now M23. Now I don't know when SB started making Shapers but, if you have any guess as to the age, pick the color you think best fits the project. Good Luck Jim B. ------- Re: Colors Posted by: "donzmill" don_zinggx~xxhotmail.com Date: Sat Jun 28, 2008 9:13 am ((PDT)) Tim, Ace Hardware sells an oil-based enamel for metal called "Rust Stop." The Medium Gray (Gloss) #225A103 (ACE 16566) color is verrry close to the original gray on my mid-1960's Logan shaper. Cost is around $14 for a quart can. I pulled the nameplate off the door and found a nice shiny patch of original paint for comparison. Don ------- Re: Colors Posted by: "Tim Coppage" ib61soonx~xxcox.net Date: Sat Jun 28, 2008 10:13 am ((PDT)) Thanks Guys. I was pretty sure the SB was machine grey but I've seen pictures of Atlas's that were a blue grey and looked good. I wasn't sure about the Logan. Mine is a '61 and is currently green. I wasn't sure if the green was the orginal or not. T ------- NOTE TO FILE: For touch ups, or complete blueing of steel tools, Brownells has both professional quality industrial products and small amounts of cold-blue solutions. If contemplating using these cold-blue products, how do you choose which one -- and how do you know how well each works? The next message provides a link to a customer's comparison test of three popular products. And while there, be sure to browse through other Brownells pages. Lots of tools and products useful to any metalworker or woodworker. The printed catalog is inexpensive and very worthwhile keeping as a reference. ------- Re: blueing steel [barstockengines] Posted by: "Garry" garrymacdonald998x~xxhotmail.com Date: Tue Dec 2, 2008 8:09 pm ((PST)) Brownell's website has pdf's of their Product Instructions that will give an idea of the effort required, while this article compares the various product's results: http://www.brownells.com/aspx/NS/GunTech/NewsletterAr chive.aspx?p=0&t=2&i=507 Garry ------- NOTE TO FILE: "Japanning" is a term for the black finish put on many hand tools; a process used for more than a hundred years. Tool makers would have had various recipes for this finish but most included a product called asphaltum which is still available on the market. There should be lots of recipes on the net if you do a web search. One used on Ford vehicles included rosin to make the finish tougher. [Ford actually used more than 30 variations of black paint during the production of early cars. The formula was adjusted depending on where the part went, and how long was available for the part to dry before it was installed.] Nowadays it is more common to use a proprietary black paint. The following conversation from the OldTools group relates to restoring the japanned finish on old metal-bodied woodworking handplanes. But such is a practical finish for many other tools. ------- Date: Thu, 2 Apr 2009 09:08:27 -0400 From: "Bill Taggart" Subject: RE: [OldTools] Re: Re-coating Preparation Just to be clear, I was kinda facetious in my "holy war" comment - just remembering some of the old days here on the Porch. I most definitely am not one to say "never, ever, ever, strip and repaint an old tool." The "it depends" is based mostly on rarity, as you observe, but also on the condition of the tool to begin with. I mean if the japan is in reasonably decent condition, I won't bother stripping it all off and refinishing the tool. I usually won't do that unless it's in pretty sad shape. Let's assume we're talking about a plane. If it's the case that it's a sad bastid and the finish is shot, it's all rusty, etc., and it really just needs the Full Monty treatment (and it's not an uncommon item - e.g., it's a standard Stanley bench plane), then sure, I'll strip it. I usually totally disassemble the plane and put the body in an old cake pan I've got banging around the shop, then pour liquid chemical stripper on it. Takes everything right off, down to bare metal. BTW, I also should point out that, as has been discussed here before, this is mostly for tools that I'm going to keep and use myself. If I'm going to sell it, well, first of all, I won't try to sell a clapped-out old sad bastid plane. And it's not worth the time it takes to do a full refurbish on a rust-bucket only to try to sell it. If I have done any kind of restoration or refurbishing on a tool I'm selling, I will fully disclose that it has been refurbished and it's not the original finish. As far as whether to use japan finish or something other, well, again - it depends and AFAIC, it's personal preference. But on a common-as-mud Stanley #5 or something similar, I'm interested in putting on a finish that will protect it from rust, look good and be durable - and is relatively easy to apply. I have had excellent results with Rustoleum black appliance epoxy in a rattle can, baked on in a toaster oven. With three coats, it actually mimics a japan finish very well in appearance - but again, I'm not doing it with the idea of convincing anyone it's the original finish. It's very simple and relatively quick to apply, and once cured, it's hard as a rock. There is a guy in the local antique tool club who proudly brought in his "set" of Stanley bench planes (#2 - #8), all of which he had "restored". Half of them he had painted bright red; the others he had painted with some sort of thin black paint; a lot of the totes shows signs of having been power-sanded somehow. I figured, well, (1) they're tools, not the Hope Diamond or a phenomenally rare Bugatti; (2) they're user-grade tools, not a one-of-a-kind ivory-tipped Sandusky Center Wheel plane; and (3) they're HIS tools, so he can do whatever the hell he wants with them, and if that appearance pleases him, so be it. He wasn't trying to sell them; he was just showing them off. If they were mine, however, I would not have painted them red, and I would not have been so aggressive in sanding the totes and knobs. It also looked like he had varnished the wood, which I never do. I like my users to look good, but after all, they are user tools, and they're mine - so I don't agonize at all over what anyone else thinks I should do regarding cleaning or finishing them. Been there, done that, don't care anymore, they're my tools, nobody else has to look at them if it offends them to know that the black finish is not an honest-to- gosh, gen-yoo-wine, hand-applied with a badger brush and baked in the autumn sun japan finish made from 100-year-old asphaltum. Several of my very nice users started out as useless rusty hulks that otherwise would have been tossed in the trash, so I feel no remorse whatsoever about de-rusting, stripping finishes and repainting to return them to usable tools. OTOH, I have a #2 (very small smoother, Jeff, but not as tiny, rare or valuable as a #1) a #3C (small smoother with corrugated sole, Jeff) and a #4 (common-as mud standard-sized smoother, Jeff) that were in excellent condition when I acquired them, with very nearly 100% japanning and just very light, dusty orange surface rust here and there. A few swipes with fine steel wool and some paste wax, and they look fantastic. It would be silly to bother stripping and refinishing them - even the common-as-mud #4. Bill T. ------- Date: Thu, 02 Apr 2009 10:18:22 -0700 From: scott grandstaff Subject: Re: [OldTools] Re: Re-coating Preparation I have, on several occasions, rejapanned planes right over top of the old. Yes, it can be done. It's just a matter of preparation and brush control. It'll be lumpy as kid who just tumbled off his bike at the -top- of the hill if you aren't careful, no doubt about that. But it doesn't have to be. Original type japan is thick, very thick to apply. Filling in the low places is pretty easy. You are going to be doing several coats anyway. When I did my 608 [model number of handplane] it had "almost" 1/3 the old japanning left; most that was left was pretty dull. After I'd zapped off all the loose rust (the loose japan came off too), I went after what was left with fine sandpaper and coarse steel wool. Smoothing and mostly feathering out. Next, over a couple days, I dabbed paint into the missing places several times, feathering with the brush, and let it air dry between coats. Smooth out with fine abrasive at the end. Then a full coat, and then another, drying a day in warm weather between. Then baked it up hard as glass in three heats, as it should. It was so shiny perfect I had to knock back some of the gloss so it would suit the rest of the plane, which wasn't squeaky prissy mint after all. It all wants to go together in the end. It suits me well enough. My "perfect" refinish is only slightly embellishing a (now) good condition plane anyway, and my efforts might elevate the selling price only a few dollars at most. If the wussards can't even take that..............:-) hee heeheheh The thing we all desperately hate to see, is poor finish work. Sloppy, hurried, uncared about, deep grinding, drippy, unskilled 5 minute work. Blech! With effort and patience anyone can do a servicible job, and pretty quick, an outstanding job. If you are going to do it, have a care about it. Start with total junk you can throw away if you do run yourself into a terminal hole, (not likely, but it's possible I guess) and work up, is my advice. This is always my advice. Resist the urge to plunge into the center stage spotlight of anything, first off. Never start the job at the front door, for instance, start at the back. Work your way round, learning as you go. yours Scott Scott Grandstaff Box 409 Happy Camp, Ca 96039 http://www.snowcrest.net/kitty/sgrandstaff/ http://www.snowcrest.net/kitty/hpages/index.html ------- [sherline] A Tip: Inexpensive Scratch Cover for worn Anodized Finish on Sherli Posted by: "lhbakeland" digitaltorquex~xxaol.com Date: Thu Jul 9, 2009 1:15 pm ((PDT)) I recently received a few tools that I ordered from Sherline. One tool was not properly deburred before it was black anodized. Removing the burrs destroyed the black anodized finish and exposed the aluminum. I could return it to the factory, but that's such a hassle. Anyway, scratches would definitely appear later anyway from use. I thought of painting it with a Sharpie marker or some other touch up paint. My final decision was to use black finger nail polish. A bottle for many many repairs cost only a couple of dollars at Walgreens. I guess that this stuff is tougher than regular markers or paint, short of stripping the aluminum and reanodizing. Leo ------- Re: A Tip: Inexpensive Scratch Cover for worn Anodized Finish on Sh Posted by: "a3sigma" dcclark111x~xxcomcast.net Date: Sat Jul 11, 2009 8:21 am ((PDT)) Good idea. I particularly recommend "Hard As Nails" brand. Used it for years as torque striping and touch up paint. Also instead of varnish to tack threads and bushings. Remove with acetone. DC David Clark in Southern Maryland, USA ------- Re: AMMCo restoration continues [Metal_Shapers] Posted by: "in2steam" in2steamx~xxwi.rr.com Date: Sat Oct 24, 2009 4:46 am ((PDT)) William Abernathy wrote: > I've stripped off all of the rust, and almost all of the paint (a few stubborn patches remain...) and will be looking soon at repainting my AMMCo shaper (after brazing out one crack and dealing with the jackshaft bushing issue...). I plan on using brake cleaner to strip off the WD-40 and LPS anti-rust goo currently on the surfaces of the castings. Once I'm done with that, I will need a good method for masking running surfaces, and I will also need good paint. Having just watched the remnants of a metallic green rattle-can job dissolve in the electrolyte, I would like something a little more robust for the final. So...I would like you guys to share your experiences with repainting, specifically masking and painting. Thanks, --William A. < William: I have now three full paint jobs (and two strips) under my belt on several of my home machines not to mention countless jobs at work. My personal experience is that stripping the old paint off is best accomplished with abrasive blasting, much has been written on this, if you have the ability to do that way I would recommend it. In the course of doing that method you will need to be ready to paint right after finishing it or you are likely to form some rust. If you use very coarse media machined surfaces should be protected with tape, and I would wear gloves while handling the items after blasting. I have not tried it myself but soda blasting is supposed to be the best for clean up and not very harsh to machine surfaces. I used this method to clean off parts of my Rockwell mill, most of those parts were oil soaked and had worn paint. I used silicone bead (milder) there is no need to mask off areas and that lead to my painting choice below. The bead blasting pretty much takes a multi step process down to one it gets ride of paint, rust, and gunk. It's very messy if done inside without a cabinet, even then it can get messy. The parts I did do this way only took a couple minutes but I was lacking the right kind of compressor to do bigger parts like my lathe or shaper which I stripped 100%. The method I used with marginal success on my atlas shaper was to manual strip all the goo with a scraper (and lots of disposable gloves), then used a solvent which is based on M.E.K. which is not available to the public used for screen printing. It is mostly M.E.K. and denatured alcohol and either will do the same by themselves. I put every thing in a closed 5 gallon bucket most of the parts were soaked, manually striped and a similar mixture was used to wash off as the grease and oil would still stick from the concentrated nature of goo in the first wash. I had to baste the main casting carefully as I did not remove the bearings, it took longer then soaking but the results were about the same. It is a more invasive method and you need to make sure that nothing will melt, and all the bearings effected will need to be re lubed or replaced. It is also nasty stuff to work with but it does cut through older lead based paints, and newer paints it cuts through in a matter of minutes. It's very flammable, very volatile, and will pretty much kill your skin if it is allowed to touch it and you are not used to it. If any parts had any film on them after that I used brake cleaner, but that was expensive in the end, I found the plain denatured alcohol better on my lathe. In the end the bottom of the first 5 gallon bucket had about 6 inches of goo chips and paint, which is hard to dispose of as it melts the normal plastic garbage bags. The method I used on my Logan 9" lathe was to use an orange based paint stripper, it was of moderate success also. It did not cut the base layer lead paint like the above mixture as well. But it was able to be used indoors more, and it is more controlled application so as not to get it into the bearings and etc. It was messier, and took about twice as long, but I think the results in the end were slightly better and it was more then likely cheaper. For de-greasing of parts I used the original solution, which cuts most of the gunk, but I also used an ultra sonic cleaner with dawn soap and hot water to clean things that otherwise hard or impossible to clean. It works well on stubborn deposits, like those on lead screw half nuts. Cleanup for this method was the easier then above but not as with bead blasting. Painting I used two methods, of which I now prefer the latter. On my atlas shaper and logan 9" lathe I used Rust-oleum professional primer and paint with at least two coats, sometimes 3 or 4 depending upon the part. Between coats on the shaper I let the paint dry the 48 hours that the instructions recommend, on the lathe I did it within 15 minutes also on the instructions. Of the two I prefer the lathe's finish and the paint seems more durable and less likely to chip. Neither one is as durable as the original finish though and that lead me to try something different on the Rockwell mill. On my Rockwell mill I had a good finish over about 80% of the machine, it was in nearly unused condition and did not warrant a complete strip after I went through and cleaned it up. I took the paint sample to my local ACE and had them color match it to an oil base, I bought a quart which I then spread on over the original paint. On the parts which I did strip down I could not see a difference. No brush strokes are visible, and the key to that is I used a cheap foam brush which did not streak like a normal brush will. It went on much thicker and you could cover spots that would show up if you tried to spray bomb it. Overall time was nearly 100% less than what I spent doing either the lathe or the shaper. I spent an afternoon stripping and painting the mill, I spent nearly a week working on the other two each (just painting and masking). On spots that had noticeable oil or grease I cleaned with denatured alcohol which softened the paint a little but did cut through the oil. Since you have great control on a brush I did not mask anything, the very few spots I did hit a machine surface(which was freshly oiled) I wiped with a cloth and alcohol. Overall I will use hand painting from now on, the finish is great and more durable as it is thicker. I also think it's quicker then doing it with spray bombs when considering masking. I might consider a primer if I did a lot of stripping but thus far the oil based has stuck to the parts I did strip without it. If you choose to spray I can say one trick I learned is to use vasoline on spots that are hard to tape. It makes a great mask, and once the paint is dry it comes off easily. I used painters tape on the ways of my shaper and lathe, but I still had over spray and under cutting. With the vasoline the paint sticks to the top of the vasoline and wipes away once dryed. That speeds things up considerably where taping would have been miserable. Also if you tape you need to remove right after you spray, or it will rip the pain;t the vasoline does not have that issue for the most part. Do not use heat lamps with the vasoline, or do it on days when it will melt -- for obvious reasons. I put it on pretty thick too, like I did my change gears for the lathe I packed it into the bore of the gear. There are better methods to spray paint then just using cans, but that gets expensive although the results are great looking if done right. Also its been my experience that if you plan on making this a usable machine that you should paint it a lighter color; it makes seeing things on it much easier; my preference is an off-white like my rockwell or safety green for my 9" lathe. The green was inspired by a myford lathe that a friend has; it makes seeing into the lathe easier and the light reflects instead of absorbing it. I have a logan 10" lathe, atlas MFB, and a delta band saw to paint yet and they will all have lighter paint coats. Since I have a lot of my rockwell color left I will use that first, I only spent $13 on that can vs $40 on each of the others. I hope that I was not too long winded, good luck and happy chips. Chris ------- Re: AMMCo restoration continues Posted by: "revgo1898" revgo1898x~xxyahoo.com Date: Fri Oct 23, 2009 10:52 am ((PDT)) In Metal_Shapersx~xxyahoogroups.com, "debrular2004" wrote: > I have Simple Green with great success. It is easier to use and just as effective. Cheaper too. John < Check this story re: welding after using brake cleaner. http://www.brewracingframes.com/id75.htm ------- NOTE TO FILE: The story tells of severe health damage that narrowly missed being fatal after using brake cleaner and then welding a part that was still wet. The gas given off caused severe injury. Personally I am going to be a lot more careful with any solvents. ------- Re: New photos of down to bare metal lathe refurbish [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: "db45acp" db45acpx~xxyahoo.com Date: Sun Jan 24, 2010 8:52 am ((PST)) "Barry" wrote: > I posted some photos of my lathe refurbish in the folder named > Barry Young. Let me know what you think. Barry Barry: Very nice photos of the rebuild. Absolutely beautiful. What paint did you use to refinish it? Did you use a spray or brush on? I'm in the middle of restoring my 101-07403 myself. It is the original gray color, but I'm entertaining the idea of changing it to that, or a similar blue. Depends on what I can find. Congratulations on a beautiful job there. Dan ------- Re: New photos of down to bare metal lathe refurbish Posted by: "jonesad99" andy.j1sx~xxsbcglobal.net Date: Sun Jan 24, 2010 12:27 pm ((PST)) Very nice job! I've just started to restore my grandfather's 07403 myself. It is the original Craftsman blue (darker than Barry's), and I'm looking for something as close as possible, available in rattle cans. The areas that were protected from fading and wear are almost a royal blue shade. Anyone have a lead on a close match? Also, there are pieces that appear to have never been painted (the head- end lead screw bracket, the change gear "spider" bracket, and the back gear shaft brackets), yet are not rusted like some areas where paint has worn off. These also appear to be unpainted (or at least not in the same paint as the rest of the lathe) in the photos on lathes.co.uk. Anyone have an idea of what their finish would have been, if any? Andy ------- Re: New photos of down to bare metal lathe refurbish Posted by: "Barry Young" barryjyoungx~xxyahoo.com Date: Sun Jan 24, 2010 5:05 pm ((PST)) Hi Dan: I chose that color because I saw a Craftsman painted that color and I felt it was a little cheerier than the standard Gray that most machines are painted. It is Rustoleum #7727 Royal Blue over Rustoleum (rust red) primer. This combination makes a very hard coating that is extremely resistant to wear and scratches IF you let it cure properly which takes about a month. These paints are in spray cans. I know that using non standard paint lowered the value but I am keeping this lathe forever so it does not matter to me. Each part was wire brushed to remove all traces of the former paint (this machine was originally painted Exorcist puke green by Atlas), then the parts were washed with soap and hot water. Right before priming the parts were masked with painters tape then washed with MEK on paper towels. After completely drying, the first side of the part was primed. Two days later the part was turned over and primed on the second side. Two days later the part was sprayed with the first color coat. Two days later the part was flipped and sprayed with color again. Two days after that the second color coat was applied and two days later the part was flipped for its last color coat. A week after the second color coat, the part was very carefully installed being extra careful to not scratch the paint which was still soft. After sitting for a month, the finish is hard and smooth. So each part took about 8 days to paint and 5 weeks to cure. Some parts had three sides to paint and took longer. Thanks for your kind words. Barry Young ------- Re: New photos of down to bare metal lathe refurbish Posted by: "Christopher Reynolds" duke6901x~xxyahoo.com Date: Sun Jan 24, 2010 2:40 pm ((PST)) Duplicolor Ford blue engine enamal is a very close match. Note: the cap is not representative of the dried color. After curing time, this paint is pretty durable and oil resistant. You may also concider a light cote of etch primer (really helps paint stick and rust proof). Good Luck! ------- Re: [inbox] Re: [atlas_craftsman] Cleaning up graduation markings Posted by: "Russ Kepler" russx~xxkepler-eng.com Date: Sun Aug 22, 2010 8:39 am ((PDT)) On Wednesday 19 November 2008 21:38:33 catboat15x~xxaol.com wrote: >The markings are "Indented" on the Atlas dials, so coating the dials with white enamel and wiping off the paint on the plain part should leave white markings on your brown dials. We used to spray paint ID tags with a black enamel and then rub the tag face down on paper towels which left black markings on aluminum ID tags. Or as some one suggested strips of abrasive to remove the crud, but I would start with something like 400 grit paper to leave shinny background and brown numbers and marks. < The "Lacquer-Stik" marker stuff works pretty well - clean well, rub on, wipe excess off and the stuff in the crack generally stays. I've used it on both firearms and lathe markings and it has a pretty good life even in those environments. -------