This is just one of some 80 files about machining and metalworking and useful workshop subjects that can be read at: http://www.janellestudio.com/metal/index.html ------------------------------------------------------------------ Here find many users' tips on heat treating metals. Most of us know something about the heat treatment of metals; others know more; but the real experts also realize what they don't know yet. Some terms at an extremely basic level: "ALLOY STEEL" -- a mixture made from molten steel and one or more other metals. If you are lucky, the metal was identified with a code number that tells you the content, and thus you can look up its properties and suitability for your task. If you are unlucky, an unidentified steel will be inappropriate for your use and you will waste a lot of time for nothing. "ANNEALING" -- a heat treatment that reduces the hardness or brittleness of metals and removes internal stresses that could lead to fractures. This process also pertains to metals other than steel. For example, shaping by hammering on a sheet of steel or copper or aluminium or brass or silver makes the metal work-hardened; periodic annealing (heating and then allowing slow cooling) allows the hammering to then continue without cracking until the final form is reached (car fender, silver teapot, whatever). "CASE HARDENING" -- low carbon steels (say under 0.6 %) may not be suitably hardened to the intended use by conventional heat treatment. Case hardening or carburizing is a process to increase the carbon and hardness of the outer skin of the steel part, thus resisting surface wear while retaining a softer, tougher, less brittle core. "HARDENING STEEL" -- a heat treatment process for high-carbon (tool) steel or alloy steel by heating to an appropriate temperature for the particular steel, followed by quenching (sudden cooling in water or dense salt solution or oil, or slow cooling in air) followed by reheating to a lower tempering temperature (where stresses are removed and toughness is increased) and finally recooled. HEAT TREATING ADDITIONAL SAFETY WARNING: While "home" heat treatment as described in some of the messages seems to be relatively simple in concept, the vagaries of alloys and heating equipment and temperature determination and timing make a successful outcome much less than certain. It is potentially a hazardous process to anyone present during the heat treating, and to anyone at risk from the use and/or failure of a critical component that was not properly heat treated. Any decision to engage in heat treating is totally your personal choice, and totally your personal responsibility for any negative consequences. Did you know that many professional metalworking businesses contract out their heat treating to professional heat treatment companies? You could too. If you got to this file directly from my HOME PAGE, return there by using your browser's back button. BUT if you came to this file as the result of a web search engine, see many additional files on my home page Machining and Metalworking at Home http://www.janellestudio.com/metal/index.html SAFETY WARNING BEWARE: DO NOT ASSUME that any subject matter or procedure or process is safe or correct or appropriate just because it was mentioned in a news/user group or was included in these files or on this site or on any other web site or was published in a magazine or book or video. Working with metals and machinery and chemicals and electrical equipment is inherently dangerous. Wear safety devices and clothing as appropriate. Remove watches, rings, and jewellery -- and secure or remove loose clothing -- before operating any machine. Read, understand and follow the latest operating procedures and safety instructions provided by the manufacturer of your machine or tool or product. If you do not have those most recent official instructions, acquire a copy through the manufacturer before operating or using their product. Where the company no longer exists, use the appropriate news or user group to locate an official copy. Be careful -- original instructions may not meet current safety standards. Updated safety information and operating instructions may also be available through a local club, a local professional in the trade, a local business, or an appropriate government agency. In every case, use your common sense before beginning or taking the next step; and do not proceed if you have any questions or doubts about any procedure, or the safety of any procedure. Follow all laws and codes, and employ certified or licenced professionals as required by those laws or codes. Hazardous tasks beyond your competence or expertise should also be contracted to professionals. Let's be really careful out there. (c) Copyright 2003 - 2015 Machining and Metalworking at Home The form of the collected work in this text file (including editing, additions, and notes) is copyrighted and this file is not to be reproduced by any means, including electronic, without written permission except for strictly personal use. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2001 09:43:37 -0500 From: Larry Richter Subject: Re: Simple heat-treating "Jeffrey C. Dege" wrote: > IRf I was starting from nothing, what would I need to get the > simplest and cheapest setup for heat-treating small parts? A propane torch, a vise grip pliers, some plain sheffield tool steel, a bag of jewelers pumice or a soft firebrick, and a a gallon of salt brine or engine oil. Read the directions on the packing envelope of the tool steel. Heat the steel to the 1450 red point using the pumice or brick to reflect heat and moving the torch a lot. Dip the steel in the quench using the pliers. When the steaming stops, polish the part, heat it until you get straw or light blue colored oxidation, quench it again. Use the tool, maybe break it, refine your ways, be impressed. Maybe get a magnet to test the temperature. ------- Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2001 11:10:45 -0800 From: "Nicholas Carter and Felice Luftschein" Subject: Re: Simple heat-treating I do it the half-assed way: Turn the reamer from drill rod. What type of drill rod? I don't know, I use some scrap that I got that just says "drill rod". Heat until bright red, then quench in oil. I save all the olive & canola oil I use when frying food. Then polish and temper, for one or two time use, it doesn't really matter what temper you draw. Mic the reamer afterwards to make sure it hasn't warped excessively. A 1/4" reamer, is a very useful and inexpensive tool, about $5-$10 depending on what quality you buy. I find I use the 1/4", 3/8" and 1/2" reamers all the time. ------- Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2001 05:58:03 -0800 From: "Delaney, John" Subject: RE: Heat Treat It been a pretty long time now, 1975, but my Jr. High metal shop teacher showed some of us how to heat treat on the cheap. He just used the gas fired forge we had and 30W oil as the quench. We were heat treating hammer faces so we didn't want them too hard, just a little more firm then the mild steel we were working with. We thought the bluing effect was really cool too as I recall. I later had the concept confirmed in a couple of physics classes. So this heat it up and dunk it in something liquid containing a lot of carbon (OIL) is about all there is to it. The one safety tip he did give us was to make sure there wasn't ANY water in the oil. If the hot tool of enough mass hits a water pocket you could get nasty hot oil shower. Something to think about. My Mom still has that hammer and uses it often I understand. Later - jd ------- Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2001 09:56:48 -0500 From: Larry Richter Subject: Re: RE: Heat Treat The process is to heat the steel above a transformation point, usually above 1450F, at which the steel becomes nonmagnetic. Then the steel to be hardened has to be cooled faster than it can transform back. It has to beat its transformation curve on the way down to normal temperature. This freezes the crystal structure in an altered state. Subsequent heating to points below the transformation point will further change the hardness of the steel and its usefulness. Carbon in the quenching medium doesn't change much, but avoiding steam generation in anything dangerous is good. If you are trying to case harden something, to make mild steel absorb an amount of carbon that will aid in hardening it, the presence of carbon in the heating environment is important. ------- Date: Sun, 28 Jan 2001 19:38:23 From: batwingsx~xxi-plus.net Subject: Re: RE: Heat Treat At 05:58 AM 1/27/01 -0800, you wrote: >so we didn't want them too hard, just a little more firm then the mild steel we were working with. We thought the bluing effect was really cool too as I recall. I later had the concept confirmed in a couple of physics classes. So this heat it up and dunk it in something liquid containing a lot of carbon (OIL) is about all there is to it. < That's pretty much a simplification. Mild steel won't harden much if any. The carbon must be donated to the steel by soaking it in a carbon-rich substance while hot, and bone meal is one such, or you would use an alloyed steel made for heat-treat. The oil serves as quench which, in materials which have sufficient carbon, is responsible for cooling the steel so fast it can't go thru the usual phase transforms, so it retains the hard allotropes. You can't get carbon into the steel with the quench, any carbon in it wouldn't possibly have time to permeate the metal. In fact, you can quench steels in oil or water, and some will harden with air cooling. And warping is dependant on the type of quench, worst to best in order given above. Finally, carburizing is only one way to harden steel; nitride case hardening for example forms an intensely hard surface with little dimensional change from the diffusion of nitride into steel, and it needs no quench. Regards, Hoyt ------- Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2001 06:24:13 From: batwingsx~xxi-plus.net Subject: Re: Heat Treat >used for a cutting tool. When you use something like bone meal >to harden the surface what do you do? The steel object is packed with the meal tightly around it. It's best to use commercial products like Casenite. Can be found or referenced from gun shops and machine shops. But for most machine shop purposes tool steels should be used instead of case hardening Any good supply house like MSC can sell you blanks of various steels. >process several times? Would something like charcoal work? Yes, charcoal and coke are excellent for producing a hard case. The procedure is much the same: pack, soak in red heat for a while depending on thickness, quench. You wouldn't repeat, just soak longer if needed. Often the hardness is so extreme you will need to temper back some, by cleaning surface and heating again to show a desired color. If you want to approach heat treat on a basis of avocation, try looking into knife making. I've seen my dad make some fantastic knives out of old files. Buck knives were originally supposed to be made from horse shoe rasps. First you anneal, shape outline, shape cross section. Then you heat, soak, quench and draw. He would use hand torch on back of blade, playing it to make the color advance toward the edge. Used sandpaper as he went to keep getting a fresh reading. When the back was blue and the edge breaking into light straw color, he would unclamp the vise and the blade fell into a bucket of water. This made a blade that was as hard as sin on cutting edge but resilient and supple along the entire length. Dad's knives would shave you! He also made leather laminated handles with stacked rings and hand fitted brass bolsters, scabbards and belts. Some of these were ordinary, but some of them were among the prettiest things you could imagine. ------- Date: Thu, 3 May 2001 20:35:15 -0700 From: "Marcus & Eva" Subject: Re: Re: Cutting tool steel with a sherline mill Hi Jack: Air hardening steels are supplied in the annealed condition (soft) just like oil or water hardening steels. They are hardened by heating and then quenching in an air blast. Heating tool steel alters its crystalline structure; when it is cooled slowly, it usually reverts back to its original crystalline form. If the crystal structure that it had while hot can be preserved, the steel becomes hard. That's what quenching does (there's a lot more to it than that, but this roughly describes what happens). Some alloys of steel rely also on precipitation of carbides in the crystal matrix to stabilize the altered structure. Some of these alloys become tolerant to relatively slow cooling without reverting back to the crystal structure they had when they were still soft. These are the air hardening grades of steel. The relatively slow quench in air results in fewer residual stresses in the steel, so it distorts less. In order to anneal such a steel it must be cooled extremely slowly, and even then, may not go all the way back to a fully softened condition. Cheers Marcus ------- Date: Thu, 3 May 2001 14:15:52 -0700 From: "Yasmiin Davis" Subject: RE: Re: Cutting tool steel with a sherline mill To add a bit more to this there are temperature sensitive markers and I think there is also tape now. Anyway you look up in the good old machinery hand book about how hot you need to get is for a given hardness ( Rockwell # ) and you buy a crayon for that temperature. They have information on the various alloys that are sold as ground stock. Also the vendor can give you a spec sheet on the material. Then you mark the work and heat it up -- when the crayon mark does its thing, then you quench it in the appropriate liquid. Then if you want to get real fancy you heat it up to a lower them for a given length of time to draw the hardness -- that is, make the piece have more strength, or other properties. This is one of the reasons those fancy Japanese tools are so expensive. The maker does all this by the color of the piece as he works it. Yasmiin ------- From: sleykinx~xxa... Date: Wed Jul 18, 2001 7:33 pm Subject: Re: [atlas_craftsman] Re: Sequence of work? (Wendall) 07/18/2001, HUNLEY31... writes: > Any experience taking the > temper out of a ball bearing then making it hard again? Next time you fire up the BBQ tos a few in the coals after you light em and leave em till they are cool again. They won't stay shiny but they will be soft. ------- From: sleykinx~xxa... Date: Wed Jul 18, 2001 8:23 pm Subject: Re: [atlas_craftsman] Quench? In a message dated 07/18/2001, rodumx~xxw... writes: > After grinding a tool I realize that the cutting tip should be heated > cherry red and then quenched to harden...But I have heard several > different quenching methods, involving regular water, salt water, or > motor oil. Thought I would ask the experts for an opinion on which is > best and save myself the frustration of wondering if I got it right... If you are talking about a Carbon Steel bit that is close. If you are talking about High Speed Steel or carbide like most metal lathe bits are made from, no quench. You grind the bit and keep it from getting red hot while you are grinding. Don't cool it in water. (Much discussion on RCM about this point.) Quenching a HSS bit will cause micro fractures and result in poor performance. Good rule of thumb is to hold the bit in your hand while grinding...if you can still hang onto it it isn't too hot. Check the RCM archives on Grinding HSS for a very lengthy discussion of this. Regards Glenn Neff medford, OR ------- From: "jerdal" Date: Thu Jul 19, 2001 12:04 am Subject: Re: [atlas_craftsman] Quench? > After grinding a tool I realize that the cutting tip should be heated > cherry red and then quenched to harden... This is news to me. Almost all cutter blanks are HSS, which as noted in other posts requires no hardening after grinding. Any heating will almost surely damage, not improve them If you are making a carbon steel tool from a piece of raw tool steel (not a blank), it may or may not need to be hardened. If already hardened, grinding as noted for HSS will not draw the temper if you are reasonably careful. If not hardened, it depends on the type of steel, Some are oil hardening, some air. Air hardening you cannot deal with adequately by hand methods. Oil hardening steel, or water hardening drill rod can be hardened if required by heating and quenching in the appropriate quench material. However, usually it is necessary to draw back the temper, especially water hardening material, to atttain the correct hardness allied with toughness. The initial water quench leaves it glass hard, and breakable. It can be drawn back by heating with torch or in an oven. For torch you will need to check the color, for an oven the correct temp will do. I forget the color vs hardness scale, but the colors are on a polished portion of the tool, varying from blue to brown and straw for different temperatures and resulting hardness. Jerry ------- From: dswrx~xxw... Date: Thu Jul 19, 2001 8:32 am Subject: Re: [atlas_craftsman] Quench? Most (if not all) lathe tool blanks are High Speed Tool Steel. They are supplied hardened and tempered to the correct hardness. You should shape them using a bench grinder with a 60 grit aluminum oxide wheel. (this is a somewhat dangerous operation and you should use proper precautions, tool rest up close to wheel and EYE PROTECTION) Since the tool blank is already hardened, you need to keep the temperature of the blank low. Cool the blank in water. Try to keep the tool bit blank from changing color from it's bright polished steel color. (a little change doesn't seem to make a difference) Carbide tools are supplied already ground to the correct shape and do not need to be shaped. Home shop hobby machining like most of us are interested in, is best done with HSS (high speed steel) tool bits, shaped to the particular job. A properly ground tool bit is joy to use and the satisfaction that you ground it your self is a real plus! Leo (grind only the tool, not your fingers) 8-) ----------------------- Date: Thu, 01 Nov 2001 18:43:38 -0800 From: S1 Subject: Re: Heat Treatment Original Message - From: "Randy" To: >> I have to heat treat O1 steel ..I have no viable means that I know of >> Somehow I didn't think a couple of propanetorches would be enough >> I'll take any ideas .. Thomas Stubblefield wrote: > Randy, >If a propane torch isn't enough you might swap out your propane for mapp >gas. It burns hotter and may be enough for what you're working on. As for >the procedure on O1, someone else will have to take it from here. Tom If you have access to an Oxy-acetalene torch kit, you can swap out the Acetelene with Propane (use the tank from your BBQ grill) and it will be hot enough. Put a Rose Bud tip on the handle and it will be all set. Steel all heat treats the same: Get the piece glowing orange, quench it in either oil or water (depending tempering medium of the steel). Basically you're causing the atoms to rearrange themselves in the steel (making them denser), and then locking them in place by cooling material down very rapidly. Without the quenching medium, you will just anneal the steel and it will get a result opposite of what is desired. A friend of mine does blacksmithing and he uses a coal/coke fired, refractory lined forge for his work. That is optimal because it insures a much more evenly heated workpiece, but in a pinch an oxy-fuel torch will work. Gabe ------- Date: Tue, 04 Jun 2002 17:45:30 -0000 From: "jdmichael2001" Subject: Re: Water or oil or air hardning. In atlas_craftsman, "Harvey Noel" wrote: >> I am looking for drill rod to use on my atlas for components on a small engine I am building. Water hardened is the cheapest, oil hardened nest and air hardened by far the most expensive. What's the difference. Is air hardened at 4 times the price worth it? Harvey << Harvey: It usually depends mostly on the shape of the part, that is, the liklihood that it will warp or crack in heat treat. The quenching severity goes in the same order from water being most severe to air being the least. Long thin blade sections which must stay flat, or parts which have unavoidably sharp inside corners might require air hardening steel. Stubby, non critical parts like pivot pins, might be fine with water hardening. Oil-hard lets you hedge your bets at a moderate cost increase unless either warpage or absolute lowest cost are driving factors. The alloying elements in air hardening steel which give it its qualities often have a side benefit of slightly more wear resistance. However, if high abrasion resistance, impact resistance, heat tolerance, or corrosion resistance are large factors you can choose an alloy that excels in that environment. You also have the case hardening option which would give you a high surface hardness with a tougher or cheaper core. For instance, an 8620 steel is often recommended for gears to give a strong core, with a case hardening for surface wear resistance. Jan ------- Date: Thu, 05 Sep 2002 05:54:16 -0000 From: "k7jpn" Subject: Annealing Bolts I need some help with a weekend project. I have to machine a 3/8-24 bolt by removing about a 1/8 inch off the shaft (the bolt head will be cut-off before I start, as it will no longer be needed). I assume that I have to anneal the bolt before I start, but I do not have a clue how to do this. I have a 6inch Atlas, so there is not a lot of power to just plow through the thing. 8-) I do have an acetylene torch, so heat should not be a problem. There will be minimal loads on the bolt after I am done, so I will probably not worry about tempering it again, but it would be nice to know how to do it for future projects. Thanks in advance! john ------- Date: Thu, 5 Sep 2002 02:36:19 -0400 From: "MERT BAKER" Subject: Re: Annealing Bolts Start with a category 1 bolt, & you won't have to anneal anything. Even Category 5s can be turned fairly easily. If you gotta anneal, heat it cherry red & stick in dry sand or ashes to cool. Mert ------- Date: Thu, 05 Sep 2002 02:43:36 -0400 From: Stan Stocker Subject: Re: Annealing Bolts Hi John: Most bolts aren't particularly hard, even grade 8 stuff cuts pretty well. Grade 2 (normal OK hardware store stuff in most cases) cuts like most 1040 or 1018 steels. If the bolt is too hard to machine, you can probably draw the temper down without needing a lot of heat, around 500F and allowing to cool in still air gets most steels down to fairly soft state. Not as good as a dull red cooking with a slow cool in ashes, but usually sufficient. Better yet, keep the good bolts for where you need them and go grab a length of allthread if you can find it in NF thread, or some cheap 3/8 bolts to use for this application. Cheers, Stan ------- Date: Thu, 05 Sep 2002 06:59:17 -0000 From: "srediske11" Subject: Annealing One of the best(slowest) ways that I know of to anneal, if you don't have or want to deal with ash is to use vermiculite... insulates really well, so be carefull, I annealed a short steel bar and placed it in my vermiculite bucket and the next morning it was still hot enough to burn me! Ouch!x~xx#$% Samuel ------- Date: Thu, 5 Sep 2002 07:42:53 -0500 From: "jerdal" Subject: Re: Annealing > One of the best(slowest) ways that I know of to anneal, if you dont > have or want to deal with ash is to use vermiculite... insulates > really well, so be carefull, I annealed a short steel bar and placed > it in my vermiculite bucket and the next morning it was still hot > enough to burn me! Ouch!x~xx#$% Just as a point of information, I would recommend getting rid of any vermiculite you still have. Much of it has the worst form of asbestos in it, due to the source. One session of insulating the attic with the vermiculite insulation has apparently resulted in incurable lung cancer years later. This is in persons with no other elevated risk factors. Jerry ------- Date: Thu, 5 Sep 2002 09:24:35 -0400 From: Chabannes Rene N Contr ASC/YCD Subject: RE: Annealing I just looked at the EPA site on vermiculite. They greatly play down what has been in numerous othe sources. Given the current administra- tion's focus on such issues, that may be expected. Unfortunately, all politicians seem to have a price. The bad stuff comes from out west - Libby,Montana, in particular. If it comes from Georgia or I think Florida, not nearly as bad. There was a big scandal over this some time back where false reports on asbestos were made for years. The most real danger comes from frequent exposure - breathing the dust. BTW Vermiculite is in lots of stuff - most notably potting soil. Rene N. Chabannes (Titan) ASC/YC - Productions Operations C-17 SPO, WPAFB, OH 937-255-1042 (DSN 785-1042) -------- Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 08:18:11 -0700 From: "Dave Hylands" Subject: RE: Oil hardening > From: Daniel Munoz [mailto:dmunozx~xxvideotron.ca] > Sent: Friday, August 16, 2002 7:06 AM > To: sherlinex~xxyahoogroups.com > I want to make some punch from oil hardening rod. The punch > are intended > to cut discs and hexagons in soft material (styrene, maybe very thin > aluminium sheet) in miniature sizes (0.2" and smaller) and > need to keep a sharp edge. > I have at hand some 1/8" and 1/4" oil hardening rods (0-1 quality ?), > and a small butane torch. but I have no idea of what I need to do for > hardening the tip after I machined it to suit my need. Never done that > before. Simply heat to red it and quench it in oil ? > Can anyone give me some advices, what kind of oil I need, if > I could use water instead, the procedure to follow for hardening the > tip, or some basic links on the web ? Thank you for your help, Daniel. Hi Daniel, I've only done this once myself, but I'll speak up and somebody who knows better can correct me. First step is hardening. You heat it until it's red hot and quench it. I use a welder's magnet and heat the part until it loses it's ability to be attracted to a magnet. At that point, you've gone beyond the "critical" temperature. I find this a bit easier than trying to guage the various shades of red. Second step is tempering. For a punch, I've read that you want to temper to a light straw color, which means that the steel needs to be heated to about 465 degrees F. In order to see the "color" you need to have a shiny portion of the punch. You can expose a shiny portion with a piece of sandpaper or emery cloth. I would expose a bit lengthwide down the punch. Now start to apply heat away from the business end of the punch and you will eventually see colors starting to move towards the tip. When you see the light straw color reach the tip. quench again. You could also use a BBQ, a hot plate, or a regular oven to get the temperature of the metal to 465. You don't need to quench in this case, since as long as the temperature doesn't go above 465 it will be tempered correctly. When quenching, don't just dunk the piece and leave it in one place. Move it up and down slowly. Otherwise gases build up around the piece and make the quench not work as well. Here's a web page called "The Woodworkers guide to Tool Steel and Heat Treatment": , which I found to be quite useful. I used motor oil for quenching. Apparently you can use vegetable oil. Some people don't like the smell of motor oil and have use peanut oil. You can also purchase quenching oil from any good store that sells machining supplies. Dave Hylands Vancouver, BC, Canada http://www.davehylands.com/ ------- Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 11:17:10 -0400 From: RichD Subject: Re: Oil hardening Daniel: You only need to heat the tip end of the punch to a bright red (in a lighted area). Do this as quickly as possible to avoid thick scale formation. Quench straight down in any oil. Motor oil will do fine. For small items a wide mouth quart container full will be ok. When cool, clean the scale off the surface to bright. Reheat from the shank end watching the color change travel toward the tip. Just as the tip begins to go from a dark straw color to a light blue, quench again. It's now ready to use. A small butane torch may not have enough heat output for open air heating. The heat loss is enormous in air. A blanket of ceramic wool can be folded to make a muffle. Lay the tool inside and blow the flame thru. A propane torch would do better. Richd ------- Date: Wed, 04 Sep 2002 11:31:35 -0000 From: "mileagemayvary" Subject: Re: Heat treating help In sherline..., "smittys8002000" wrote: > I need to do some heat treating to some 4340, for some shafts thatI > make for my hobby. It has been a long time since I have done anything > Smitty Here is what I do for drill rod/silver steel/tool steel. For the bed I use coke (not the drink or the white stuff). It is processed coal that is used in boilers, and you used to be able to find it around industrial places. It looks like porous charcoal. Also it adds some carbon. Only need few handfuls. Had mine for 40 years. If you make the pieces of coke about 10mm - 30mm these can be packed around the item. It heats up very fast and retains the heat, and does not really burn away. Put this in a metal container. Put the item in the bed of coke so it is a bit more than 50% covered and play the torch on the resulting gap. Depending on the size of that shaft, propane may not be hot enough. I prefer Mapp gas also called Turbogas (lpg & acetylene). It burns at 2500C and is readily available and so are the torches at reasonable prices. I have 2 torches, one is self igniting. However one burns much hotter and nicer than the other although the burners appear to be identical. Also good for silver brazing. For quenching use ordinary clean engine oil from the car place. Put some in a food tin with a press on lid so you can store it, and it can be knocked over (it will be). The can needs to be much bigger than your metal piece to stop the oil overheating. You need to do the heating inside, but ventilated (I use a small fan to disperse any gases), so you can watch the color. However you must have the can of oil OUTSIDE because quenching will cause a lot of choking smoke and may be a fire risk. I heat until the metal is just a bit less yellow than the surrounding coke which will be very hot and yellow. Some people suggest rubbing the metal with ordinary soap before heating. When that goes black it is correct temperature for most metal You can also get rub on pencils for different temp indicators. Have tongs/pliers standing by. Run the metal out to the oil can and lower it in. Stand back! Be careful of burning oil splashes. Take it out. Remove any oil. Test with a file for hardness. To temper you then put it back in the coke. Heat until it just shows the slightest color change "blush", then allow to cool slowly OR.. Put in the standard oven with the Sunday roast. Cook at 200c for just over an hour. Rob ------- Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 10:26:27 -0800 From: "Mark Beyer" Subject: Re: ISO: Metal crafter to make guitar bridge steel rollers [SHERLINE GROUP] Bruce: Thank you for the question. Cryogenic processing has been around since shortly before W.W.II. Unfortunately, due to control problems it largely disappeared until computers could take over the accurate control needed for the nitrogen feed. Cryo'ing is a process of material improvement used to remove latent stresses from metals and some limited other materials. Depending on the materials and wear inducing applications it increases total material structure and surface durability up to 800%. In music it removes the sour notes from the locked in metal stresses. On sporting goods like golf clubs and softball bats it increases "pop" for more power and distance. Firearms and high tech products also benefit through improved accuracy and tolerances. There is highly technical aspects of what part of the material changes due to the process involving carbides and grain structure. Uniformly, stress reduction is the universal benefit in all materials which we currently process. There are good things and bad things about cryo'ing. The good thing is it's cheap. Nitrogen constitutes 73% of the air we breath and when they liquefy gases Nitrogen is the cheapest and most abundant gas to liquefy. Using it as a refrigerant is cheap and accurate now. The bad thing is, it's almost impossible to tell if a cryo process has been accomplished on a material since there is no residue or obvious and observable change. So, unscrupulous processors will either squirt or dip and ship, meaning the material is processed too fast and is actually harmed instead of improved or they don't even process at all but still charge for it. So, those of us with scruples in the business suffer from the inconsistency of others. The process is a timed cooling from room temperature to -300 degrees F at no more than a single degree per minute rate. A 24 hour or greater soak at -300 degrees F and then a warming back to room temperature again at one degree per minute. It really is the logical conclusion to the forging process as the benefits of tempering don't end until the material reaches absolute zero. Liquid Nitrogen temperatures being the closest economical to absolute zero we can now reach. I hope I answered your question fully enough. If you want I can answer further some specifics on the effects and benefits. If you chose a company to have your processing done by, get to know them enough to trust they won't cheat you on it. I would rather see a satisfied customer for any good cryogenic company out there than hear perpetually about how the process didn't work for someone due to poor processing methods the few bad apples out there use. The hobbyist probably won't see too much in the way of cryo treated materials and tools for now. Softball bats, golf clubs, and circular saw blades being the exceptions. My goal is for everything to be treated which will benefit from this process so it becomes transparent to society. That's why I always look for converts to my belief. Mark Beyer ONECRYO ------- Date: Sun, 26 Jan 2003 23:29:25 EST From: LouD31M066x~xxaol.com Subject: Re: source for mt1 & mt2... [THAT ARE "HEAT TREATED"] Heat treated means that a steel with a suitable carbon content was heated to a temperature high enough and long enough to create form a form of carbon crystal ( little hazy on names or exact science but bear with me) and then cooled quickly below the transition temperature so these high temperature forms would exist in the steel at normal temperatures. This is full hard in shop I worked in above 500 Brinnell (measure of hardness) and also brittle (not exactly like glass) Now understand the heat treating process was used in the place I worked to not only harden but also to increase yield strength from about 30,000 # sq inch to around 100,000 # sq inch. To make suitable balance between strength and brittleness steel is then put in a lower temperature furnace to reduce hardness by allowing some transformation of high temperature form of carbon to return to a normal temperature form of carbon crystal. Parts then would measure desired level of hardness and not be so brittle. Major customers was Cat, P & H Crane, so product had to be strong but not subject to brittle fracture. Case hardening is a different process where a steel with a low carbon content is given a hard case or shell by heating in presence of a carbon or carbon compound so that steel at surface accepts carbon and when cooled has a hard surface and a soft core. The element iron with little or no carbon is called iron. The element iron with a great deal of carbon is called iron. The element iron with an intermediate content of carbon is called steel. The level of carbon in iron and the form in which it exists (along with larger or smaller amounts of alloy or impurity) vary the qualities and usefullness of steel and account for why some steel is better or worse for a particular purpose. People who understand the whys and hows of all this are usually graduate metalurgists and or chemists. Back to your question sticking a piece of steel in a fire and then a bucket of water is heat treating,but, there is a whole science behind it. Louis ------- Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2003 23:57:18 -0000 From: "Thomas " Subject: Kasenit? I'm in the middle of making a toolpost mounted knurler out of low- carbon ground flat stock, and am wondering if I should harden it with something like Kasenit (especially in the holes that the pivot bolts will pass through). Do you think hardening something like this would be overkill? Thomas ------- Date: Tue, 01 Apr 2003 04:05:52 -0000 From: "Robin S." Subject: Re: Kasenit? I think it would be fairly useless. You want toughness, not hardness. Making them out of a medium/high carbon steel would have been a smarter idea. 4140 is a good choice. Heat to 1600ş (red hot) and quench in oil. Put it in your oven as hot as it will get for an hour or two and you've got some tough stuff. Mind you, I don think it would hurt to case-harden the part, but I think it would be a lot of work compared to the benefit. Regards, Robin ------- Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2003 09:40:20 -0800 From: "Nicholas Carter and Felice Luftschein" Subject: Re: Kasenit? I made mine out of CRS, I haven't noticed a need to harden. I think that it wouldn't hurt though. See our web pages http://www.cartertools.com/nfhome.html ------- Date: Tue, 01 Apr 2003 17:06:58 -0500 From: Tom Wightman Subject: Re: Kasenit? Thomas The knurling tool I made, the body was from 1020 cold rolled. The pins on which the knurls ran (they are fixed in the body but the knurls rotate on the pins) were unhardened drill rod. The pins wore quite quickly, but everything else has been fine. I replaced the pins with an identical set, but hardened them and tempered at about 500F (domestic oven) - no more problems so far. Regards Tom W. ------- Date: Tue, 01 Apr 2003 23:42:03 -0000 From: "Thomas " Subject: Re: Kasenit? Thanks all for the good advice. I think I'll skip the hardening part, and if it wears out, I'll just have to make another one even better ;) Thomas ------- Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2003 18:40:36 -0400 From: "Thomas R. Bank" Subject: Heat Treating Tools I was watching The Woodwright's Shop on PBS last night. They were visiting the guys at Williamsburg VA, who had a demonstration of old fashioned technique that was quite interesting. They made a chisel and then heat treated it. Standard practice, except that they welded a piece of steel to an iron blank to get a good cutting edge while using cheaper iron for the bulk of the tool, then heat it in the forge (my grandpa had one of them in his garage - boy would I ever like to have one like it) and quench it, followed by the tempering process, -- but that's where the process got neat. Instead of sticking the cleaned-off metal (he cleaned it with a brick instead of a file or grinding wheel) back in the fire to warm it up, the smith's helper brought over a piece of iron about 4" X 12" X 1" thick that was close to white hot and laid it on the bricks. The smith then stroked the chisel back and forth on the hot bar, heating it evenly until the color he wanted - the purple after the straw and orange in this case - started to show. Surprisingly, the color was very evident even on television. Using a torch, I have had hard times at time catching the color when tempering drill rod, and in the little gas forges we had back in Junior High it was really difficult. Those guys with their 200 year old techniques made it a piece of cake. Regards, Tom Bank ------- Subject: Re:making a scratch awl oldtools digest From: "John Sawchak" Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2003 23:53:59 -0600 I made an extended point for my spring-powered centerpunch once. I used a solid steel pushrod from a high winding (gear-driven timing chain) v-6 ford motor. Actually being as the motor went shot I turned a great number of these pushrods into useful little tools. Some are pin punches, some hole cutters, basically a little bit of everything. I annealed the steel first (heating til it glows and then cooling it slowly in whatever insulating material you have handy) so I could work it easily. Then I ground it to whatever I wanted. In this case I ground it by chucking it in a drill and turning it on my grinding wheel until it was what I had in mind. I then heated the end cherry red and plunged it into tranny fluid. This hardened it. I didn't bother tempering it. It has held up just great. I used the same technique using an old file to make a marking knife. ------- Subject: Re: Making tools, files, scrapers and stuff oldtools digest From: "Todd Hughes" Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2003 22:28:39 -0500 Bruce asked....,>, I saw a pretty nifty "user made" > wooden router plane that used a file for the blade.... > My question has to do with using an old > file for something like this. In this case the end of the file had been > bent a little bit and then was ground and sharpened. I am basically > metalurgically indept, so if one were to attempt to do something like > this, would one have to do anything special to the file? Does it > need to be tempered on anything? Seems like a file should be hard > enough (at least for a router plane). What about bending it? Could > that be done cold? A File can not be bent cold as it is very hard and brittle, will snap right away, this is because of the way it is tempered .The File has to be heated up to at least a red heat and bent hot then annealed by letting it cool slowly in some wood ash.After cool it should be soft and then you can file or grind it.After shaped heat it up to a red heat and harden in some oil and then temper it at about 350 deg. ...I have made many hundreds of Knives out of Files as well as using them for the bits in Axes and making Springs etc., really ain't much to it... Todd ------- Subject: Re: Oil vs water hardening oldtools digest From: "Phil and Debbie Koontz" Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2003 09:59:46 -0900 Hi Galoots-- This is one of those situations where simple answers almost always lead to problems. I'm reminded of a few years ago, when I took a couple forges along on a Boy Scout campout, and we did some smithing. It seems to be a natural law that when the boys get to a certain age, the only thing they want to make is knives, or even better, swords. And I always tell them to forget it. It's easy to do a bad job of making knives, not so easy to do even a bad job of making a sword, but doing a good job of knifemaking is something that you have to work at. Care about. Study. Spend some time on the subject. To tell you the truth, it's not something I'm real good at anyway. I know just enough to really appreciate my ignorance. So, where to start. Quenching hot carbon steel. Rapid cooling forms crystals. Iron crystals are cubic. Carbon impurities get trapped in the cubic structure and put it under stress. Think of a wooden box with an inflatable ball inside. When the crystals suddenly form and shrink, they trap the carbon inside, like a ball that's too big for the box. That stress gives the steel its hardness, but it can be too much stress, which is the reason the steel tends to warp, crack, or simply to be too hard. Tempering lets the crystals relax just a little bit, so some of the carbon can migrate to a little lower stress position. The main benefit of tempering is to increase toughness, or reduce brittleness. The reduced hardness is the result of more toughness. (I'm simplifying this subject radically, partly because I don't understand it very well. There are actually at least four or five crystal species involved, not just one or two...) Water hardening steel (and there aren't many of them left anymore W1, W2, and 1095 are about it--and they are hard to find) needs to cool very quickly to develop it's full hardness. This rapid cooling works best on thin parts, like knife edges and springs. For thick parts, the hardness doesn't penetrate, because the steel holds heat too long. Old time smiths tended to use saturated salt water as a quench to get around this problem, because it raises the boiling point and increases the cooling rate. We're talking about fractions of a second here... The benefit of oil and air hardening steel is that you can get more penetration and harden thicker pieces of steel. Rev Ron has mentioned this IIRC--W1 plane irons tend to have a soft core that eventually emerges as they wear down. It turns out that a couple of additives make the steel gain its full hardness even if it cools slowly. I think that they are mainly molybdenum and, to a lesser extent, chromium. Look it up, if you really want to know. Oil hardening steel (O1 and others) harden at a moderate cooling rate, so that the core of the part gets hardened as much as the outside. Air hardening steel allows an even slower quench. That said, there is some cross over. See this web page for examples. http://www.dfoggknives.com/waterhardening.htm And here's a good source for steel properties and buying tool steel http://www.crucibleservice.com/eselector/selectorindex/selec torindextitle.html The general rule for an amateur shop is try oil quenching first. It probably won't hurt the steel. If that doesn't do it, then try a water quench. If that still doesn't do it, maybe try saltwater or superquench. (What's superquench? A home recipe for hardening low carbon steel; it's on the net somewhere--) One of the problems with this rule is that people tend to go from the hardening step right back to another hardening step. There is a big problem with that too. Crystal growth. I really don't want to get into this subject too much, but high temperatures make the steel crystals grow, and that's bad. The smaller they are, the better. Another good rule is to find one kind of steel that you can handle predictably, and stick with it. I don'tknow anyone that actually follows that one, though. There are two ways to make the crystals smaller; forging and annealing. Forging means that you have to actually work the steel, and knead those crystals out--break them down with your hammer. Some knifemakers will tell you that you have to put the same number of hammer blows on both sides of a knife blade, in a symmetrical pattern, or the steel will warp. Crystal growth is the reason. Annealing is slow cooling from the critical temp of the steel. The slower the better. Burying the red hot steel in ashes overnight is the traditional technique. It removes the crystal structure altogether. So the rule is--anneal, then harden, then temper. If you don't like the result, repeat the process from step 1. And there's a problem with that. Every time you heat the steel, you are potentially burning off some of the carbon, which means that the surface of the steel won't gain its full hardness. And of course, there is always the surface scale loss and the possibility that you will burn the stuff up altogether... So there you go. All I know about the subject. Phil Koontz Galena, AK ------- Subject: Re: Tempering [Oldtools group] From: Jim Wallbridge Date: Tue, 02 Mar 2004 10:07:15 -0700 On Tuesday, March 2, 2004, at 09:08 AM, Mike Duchaj wrote: > Question for the tool makers and metal heads, > I am making marking knives. I used file stock for blades. It was > annealed and shaped, then rehardened. Now I have to temper it. I will > use the oven method. > Phil said to temper to 425 for plane blades. Is that OK for marking > knives too? Since temperature is controlled in the oven, do I need to > quench after heating, or just let it cool slowly? I know I would need > to quench if I used my forge to heat the tang, to prevent over-heating. Mike & Galoots Yes 425 F would be Ok. I realize that the following may be controversial. In general for high carbon (~1.3%) tool steel, which good files are made from, the temperature to be used for tempering depends on the hardness desires of the user. For the highest hardness (which I use for chisel and planes used for finishing) tempering at 275 - 300 F for one hour is about the lowest that should be considered. These is data to indicate that torsional toughness is at a maximum in this temperature range but it is still relatively brittle but does yield a beautiful long last cutting edge but it must be handled with care. I would consider this too hard for a knife except for one with only a very specialized use. Hardness goes down from there as the temperature goes up but I would suggest not using temperatures between about 425 and 525 because of potential brittleness in this range. At temperatures above this consideration should be given to using a lower carbon steel as it will provide a better mix of properties I would suggest that one hour be used for tempering but there is no harm in longer times within reason. Very short times as used in running the temper methods are not as effective and somewhat higher temperatures (+25 F) result in similar hardness As to quenching after tempering: certain alloys, particularly those containing Cr, P, As and others, can be brittle if not quenched but for most alloys it does not matter. I tend to quench if convent. jim (James ME Wallbridge P. Eng (retired).) Libertarian, Metallurgist, Wood & Metal Worker, Fly Fisher, Resident of Calgary, Canada's new head office location of choice. Permission is hereby given to use any or all information herein, as an attributed quote, unless the body of the message states otherwise. ------- Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2004 13:21:31 -0700 From: William Abernathy Subject: Re: Heat treating oven Ron Gerlach wrote: > Has anyone out there used a ceramic kiln for heat treating? They > seem like natural choices and the small ones are fairly common and > cheap. They all seem to be able to heat well past the 1450F > temperature needed for hardening. It would be a fairly simple > matter to add a thermocouple and controller to get programmable > temperature control. My neighbor has a kiln (she's a ceramist) and when I asked if I could use it for heat-treating small parts, she declined, because opening the lid on a running electric kiln to remove a part thermal-shocks the heating elements (so she claims, at least) and wears them out. Dunno if it's true, but (A) she believes it, which put an end to that discussion, and (B) I went and built a small kiln out of firebrick and a Reil propane burner instead, and that's worked fine for heat-treating small parts for me. Obviously, you have more sophisticated requirements than are satisfied with the "shoot it with fire 'til it glows for a while" technique which has sufficed for my crude implements. Inquire about thermal shock before jumping in and buying an electric kiln. I may well be blowing your way the same smoke that was blown up my bum. William A. ------- Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2004 21:40:56 +0100 From: "Brian Squibb" Subject: Re: Heat treating oven I guess a kiln would be excellent at case hardening when the oven could be left to cool down.I have a friend who uses a kiln for heat treating without problems. Brian ------- Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2004 16:57:13 -0400 From: "mertbaker" Subject: Re: Heat treating oven Small parts (firing pins, screwdrivers) can be heat treated with a propane torch. Larger ones on the gas burners on the stove. Mert ------- Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2004 22:57:55 +0200 From: "J.C. Gerber" Subject: Re: Heat treating oven It is true that a ceramic oven could be killed this way and it is true too what Brian says. It just depends how fast you can take the piece out of it and close the door. Then the thermal shock is not that bad. Jean-Claude, Switzerland www.homestead.com/turnandmill ------- Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2004 15:28:04 -0700 From: Wally Merrin Subject: Re: Heat treating oven > Has anyone out there used a ceramic kiln for heat treating? They seem > like natural choices and the small ones are fairly common and cheap. Paragon makes ceramic kilns and also makes electric heat treating ovens and a line of knifemaker's ovens. http://www.paragonweb.com/index.cfm These ovens don't seem to be bothered too much by the thermal shock of opening and closing the door. I have used the knifemaker's ovens (I would love to own one) and they are great. They aren't cheap but they have digital controls and work nicely The big disadvantage of ceramic kilns is many of them are top loading, which means for heat treating you are trying to get your parts out by reaching down into a very hot hole and then quickly getting it into the quench. The heat treating ovens are front loading so you can open the door and reach in with tongs without broiling your hands and arms. Wally ------- Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2004 20:18:07 -0500 From: Bill Aycock Subject: Re: Heat treating oven I have used several types and brands of ceramic and enameling kilns, and have heat-treated and tempered steel in them. Unless your size needs are large, I think an enameling kiln is the best bet. Most are designed to be opened repeatedly, and have doors that swing open, for horizontal insertion. They don't get as hot as ceramic kilns, but 1600 F , steady state is normal. Many ceramic shops also have access to enameling kilns, or you can try Rio Grande, in New Mexico. Rio Grande also handles controllers, usually used for glass tempering. Bill Aycock - W4BSG Woodville, Alabama ------- Subject: Re: Wanted - Blade hardening for Dummies From: bugbear Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2004 09:03:57 +0100 Derek Cohen wrote: > Esteemed Galoots > I recently acquired a 3/8" corner chisel, the steel of which requires hardening. At present the blade just burrs (like a scraper) when I sharpen it (on a diamond stone) and the edges just folded over when I attempted to use it on one occasion. I was told that it was New Old Stock so I must assume that the steel is soft (VERY soft!). In appearance it resembles a steel bar with a machined out corner section. I think Lie Nielson made some like this some years ago (but this certainly ain't no LN!). < IIRC corner chisels are made soft to ease the (very difficult) process of sharpening the damn things. BugBear ------- Subject: re: Wanted - Hardening Steel For Dummies From: "Ron Hock" Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 15:39:41 -0000 Go here: http://www.hocktools.com/diyht.htm Good luck, Ron ------- Subject: RE: Wanted - Hardening Steel For Dummies From: "Thomas R. Bruce" Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 15:01:02 -0400 Ron and all: Ron's the master, and no doubt about it, but I can add a couple of tricks I've picked up from the knife-making crowd: 1) Heat-treating with a propane or MAPP torch is a lot easier if you add five or six firebricks to the process; you can get 'em from a local masonry or fireplace shop. I stack them up crosswise to form a sort of firebrick tunnel with a 1-2" square opening through which the torch flame is directed. Concentrates the heat *much* better than just waving a torch around in the air, and makes it feasible to work with larger pieces. Next time I think I'll try rubbing some charcoal around on the inside first, just to see what an oxygen slut will do, if offered the right inducement. 2) Olive oil works too, and is easier to get around here, and also will not flash. 3) Any oven is an accurate oven if you use an oven thermometer (grin). 4) A pair of the needle-nose type vice-grips makes a very good work holder when working with the "firebrick tunnel" technique above. 5) For knives, you can get tricky with hardening by quenching cutting-edge first, leaving a softer and hence more robust spine. Probably not worthwhile with a plane blade, though. I've only worked with O-1, howsomever. t ------- Subject: RE: Wanted - Hardening Steel For Dummies From: "Jeff Gorman" Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 07:22:09 +0100 Even better would be refractory insulating bricks, items that are used for lining potters kilns. These are lightweight, crumbly bricks. I've seen one face heated red hot and then the brick picked up, held by the opposite face. Jeff Gorman, West Yorkshire, UK http://www.amgron.clara.net ------- Subject: RE: Wanted - Hardening Steel For Dummies From: "Blake Ashley" Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 07:48:27 -0700 You can buy the refractory insulating bricks Jeff describes at stores that sell jewelry making supplies. They are soft enough to allow holding small parts by sticking them into the brick surface. ------- Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2005 07:26:51 -0000 From: "mileagemayvary" Subject: Re: Heat Treating Gear Hob [sherline group] "Devin Cox" wrote: > I just finished a gear hob and want to heat treat it. I know I > should heat the hob to cherry red and then quench in cold water. But > then the video "making gears the easy way" says you need to polish > and then temper to a straw color. The polishing and tempering was > not shown in the video. Can someone please explain this process? My method is: Get a small metal container filled with coke. Not the powder, not the drink, but the carbon stuff made from coal you sometimes see laying around in those disused factories :( If you cannot find some then use charcoal. Bury the item in the coke with a window hole. Heat the item and surrounding coke with MAPP or propane to cherry red. Color depends on the alloy. The idea is to move carbon from the coke across to the item. Dump item into a can of engine oil. Do this outside (before it can cool) as it produces acrid smoke and a fire risk. Clean up item and rebury it in the coke. Heat to straw color, cover with coke and allow to cool for 1/2 hour. *Do not quench it*. Try the routine on a small piece of the metal. If you get it right then a file will not touch it, but the metal will be very tough. Incorrect tempering and it will shatter (and appear quite crystalline at the break) in use due to being brittle. Rob ------- Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2005 03:07:25 -0500 From: "Jerry G" Subject: Re: Re: Heat Treating Gear Hob Rob, have you ever tried "Kasenit"? You are describing case hardening anyway... By letting it cool for 1/2 hour, (even packed in coke) you are actually "air quenching" it, in a way... Jerry G (Glickstein) ------- Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2005 08:07:38 EST From: Holyelvisx~xxaol.com Subject: Re: Heat Treating Gear Hob Jerry, I planned on using my oxy/acet torch to heat the hob, is this too much? I have a small propane torch as well but thought it might not get hot enough. The hob is made from tool steel. Devin ------- Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2005 08:26:15 -0500 From: "Jerry G" Subject: Re: Heat Treating Gear Hob Devin, the Oxy/acet is fine, but use a slight excess of the acet to minimize the oxidation. that is why the stainless steel bags are cool... there should be a nice cone of blue at the tip and don't stay in one place, try to heat up the whole piece uniformly.. what kind of tool steel? Regards, Jerry G (Glickstein) ------- Jerry, I am not sure what kind of tool steel it is. I just had some laying around from a project last year. Devin ------- Devin, the type is important because you would then know if it is Oil, Water, or Air hardening.... A neutral ( about one to one mixture of the two gases) to carburizing flame (slightly excess acetylene ) is preferable... Regards, Jerry G (Glickstein) P.S. Do you know how to do a spark test on the steel? ------- Jerry, I have not heard of a spark test. I just pulled the scrap out of my bin. I hope I can use this piece because I have already cut it. (c: Devin ------- Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2005 09:06:02 -0800 From: "Marcus and Eva" Subject: Re: Re: Heat Treating Gear Hob Hi Devin: Take a file, (an old thrasher that you don't need anymore) and touch it to a spinning grinding wheel. The sparks will come off very bright and sparkly...yellower than a kid's birthday sparkler, but quite similar otherwise. Now take a HSS lathe toolbit and touch it to the wheel. You'll get globular red little sparks that look dull and uninteresting by comparison. The sparkliness and yellowness of the spark is an indicator of the amount of Carbon in the steel, and the globularity and redness is an indicator of the amount of Chromium and/or Vanadium in the steel. Bright yellow sparky steel has lots of carbon...GOOD for home heat treat. Dull globular red sparky steel won't torch harden very consistently... POOR for home heat treat. All high carbon steels can be water quenched. Many can be oil quenched. A very few can be air quenched. Water quench introduces high stresses in the cooling steel...high hardness and high risk of cracking and warping. Oil quench is moderate in both. Air quench requires steels that will hold their Martensitic crystalline structure reasonably well through a slow cooling cycle...this takes special alloying to produce carbides in the microstructure. (The Martensitic structure is what makes it hard.) Impossible to control consistently without a heat treat furnace, because controlled precipitation of the carbides takes the right kind of temperature rise, hold and descent. My advice to you is to do the spark test on a scrap. Then try to harden the scrap with a torch and an oil quench. If it doesn't get hard, try a water quench. If it still doesn't get hard...you've got either an air hardening toolsteel, or a low carbon steel that will need to be case hardened to salvage the job. Almost every hobbyist who has "Mystery steel" in their scrap box that they "know is toolsteel" is talking about either O-1 or W-1. Both are high carbon steels that can be torch hardened. That's why you do the oil hardening test first...if it works, it's very likely O-1. (That would be very desirable because it won't warp as bad in the quench!!!) HTH. Cheers Marcus -------- Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2005 12:30:09 -0500 From: "Jerry G" Subject: Re: Re: Heat Treating Gear Hob So, Devin, Heed Marcus's words.... My colleague in crime has beat me to it....:) Regards, Jerry G (Glickstein) ------- Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2006 06:45:10 -0500 From: "L.A. Root" Subject: [OldTools] Annealing steel I wanted to make a striking knife and, not having an easy source for small pieces of steel, tried to anneal a small file. I placed it in my wood burning stove on hot coals for about 15 min.; when removed, it was a dull red. I promptly placed it, still red, in a can of wood ash until the next morning when it and the surrounding ash were still too hot to touch. The file was black when I removed it and placed it on the stove's steel lip to cool. When I file a soft steel, such as a common bolt, the file cuts it easily and quickly. A file will now cut the treated file, but it cuts slowly leaving a near polish. It is still, to my inexperienced hand, hard. When I grind it, it cuts as slowly as a chisel. Do I need to get it hotter; leave it at temperature longer; cool it differently? Or is this just a harder alloy even when annealed? Thanks for any advice you can offer. Very respectfully, Larry Root ------- Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2006 08:14:29 -0800 From: scott grandstaff Subject: Re: [OldTools] Annealing steel > Do I need to get it hotter; yup, bright cherry > leave it at temperature longer; yup a little longer can't hurt > cool it differently? No, that part is fine. Personally I put them in at bedtime as the last good coals are burning. Right in front of the air draft where it'll burn hottest and fastest. Drag some coals over for a bed. Pile with more live coals so as not to expose too much steel to the air. Hit the sack. It's done in the morning. yours, Scott Scott Grandstaff, Box 409, Happy Camp, CA 96039 Tools:http://users.snowcrest.net/kitty/scott/scotts/tools/tools.html PageWorks:http://www.snowcrest.net/kitty/hpages/ ------- Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 05:46:23 -0500 From: "L.A. Root" Subject: Re: [OldTools] Annealing steel Thanks for all your suggestions! I tried again last night getting it to a bright red-yellow, put it in the ask can overnight, and, this morning, it cuts easily. I now have a steel blank to abuse. But now I'm confused (my daughters might suggest that's not unusual): If I can temper the hardened steel at 350-400 and ruin it at 600 (or by careless grinding), why does it need to get that hot to soften it? What happens between 600 and what ever temperature it reached on the second try? Is there a continuum between room temp and that non-magnetic temperature that, at that boundary temp, suddenly changes? Is the ruining by grinding just moving to a less hard, but still hard spot on that continuum? When it's time to harden, how long do you have after you take the steel from the fire -- how quickly will it cool down? I don't want to oil soak it inside the house, and it will take 30 seconds or so to get outside. Is it worth an ash bucket for that length of time? Again, thanks for any further suggestions you can offer. ------- Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 10:18:10 -0500 From: "Seaman, Andrew K. (Andy)" Subject: [OldTools] Re: Annealing steel Larry's confused about heat treating steel: >Is there a continuum between room temp and that non-magnetic >temperature that, at that boundary temp, suddenly changes? The simple answer here is yes. Steel has phases, many many phases that can be obtained by different heating and cooling schedules. Check out this link: http://www.threeplanes.net/toolsteel.html Read the section entitled, "What Happens During Heat Treating of Tool Steel?" I think this will answer all of your questions if you read it a few times. There are several other phases of steel that are not listed in this phased diagram. Bainite (not mentioned in link) is ideal for some bearing steels that I work with. To answer your ultimate question Larry, >When it's time to harden, how long do you have after you take >the steel from the fire -- how quickly will it cool down? Not long. One, two seconds maybe. Putting your steel in ash to transport it outside to quench it will cool it too much. This is a game of speed. Pull your steel from the fire and thrust it in the oil as quick as you can. Otherwise, you'll never get the steel as hard as it can be. You might consider building your fire outside if quenching inside is not an option. Good luck! Andy ------- Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 10:37:15 -0800 From: Ron Hock Subject: Re: [OldTools] Annealing steel > Is there a continuum between room temp and that non-magnetic > temperature that, at that boundary temp, suddenly changes? Yes. The change at the high temp where it becomes non-magnetic is a phase change. The ferrite changes to austenite which is a completely new configuration of the iron atoms. The crystal structure changes from a "body-centered cubic structure" to a "face-centered cubic structure". When this happens, the carbon is free to migrate as if in solution and it finds new places to reside. When quenched from this temp, the austenite changes to martensite, a smaller, hard, wear resistant structure, and traps the carbon creating a highly stressed but very hard matrix. Subsequent tempering reduces stresses and "softens" the steel --up to a point. For full annealing, you need to reach that critical temperature and let it cool very slowly (as you've apparently done.) Be aware of the de-carburized skin that you've created with all this heating in air. When the steel is at the high temperature the carbon atoms are moving freely about and when one of them hits the surface it runs off with the first oxygen slut it bumps into (they're so seductive). Gone forever. So diy heat treating usually creates an unhardenable layer on the steel. Be prepared to grind that layer off, down to the good stuff, after tempering. > Is the ruining by grinding just moving to a less hard, but > still hard spot on that continuum? Yes. > When it's time to harden, how long do you have after you take the steel > from the fire -- how quickly will it cool down? I don't want to oil > soak it inside the house, and it will take 30 seconds or so to get > outside. Is it worth an ash bucket for that length of time? Unless you really *want* the divorce (and the insurance claim for the total loss), do this outside. Wear gloves that will resist fire, face/eye protection and keep a fire extinguisher handy. Move quickly from the heat to the quench (you really don't want to be running around with a piece of glowy metal). I do the heat-treat demo in my (very small) shop for groups of woodworkers from time to time. For a small blank of O1 (3/32 x 3/8 x 7") I use a quart paint can about 2/3 full of peanut oil (high flash point, smells nice when smoking) for the quench "tank". And I always enlist two visitors to be 1. the magnet holder, 2. the fire-extinguisher bearer (CO2 -- the powders are too messy). I just figure: small, cluttered shop, crowded with people, one exit, open flame, etc. Just wouldn't do to immolate potential customers. Good luck. Be careful. And you may want to check: http://www.hocktools.com/diyht.htm for some more tips. The Rev. Ron Hock HOCK TOOLS http://www.hocktools.com 16650 Mitchell Creek Dr Fort Bragg, CA 95437 (707) 964-2782 fax (707) 964-7816 ------- Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 10:57:49 -0900 From: "Phil and Debbie Koontz" Subject: Re: [OldTools] Annealing steel The Rev Dr. Ron straightens out our heat treating thread again-- >For a small blank of O1 (3/32 x 3/8 x 7") I use a quart paint can >about 2/3 full of peanut oil (high flash point, smells nice when >smoking) for the quench "tank". I just wanted to add that I think I've found a really good quench tank. It's an old 30 caliber ammo box. Just the right size and shape for small blades, fireproof, airtight, cheap, easy to handle, doesn't spill, and mice can't get in it. Mine is full of corn oil because peanut oil is pricey and hard to find around here. It works fine, but I find that the french fries get sort of funny tasting after you use it for heat treating a few times. PK It warmed up to -40 today in Galena. ------- Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 17:49:38 -0500 From: "L.A. Root" Subject: Re: [OldTools] Annealing steel Andy, Jim, Ron, and Phil, thanks for your helpful replies. Outdoors it is -- even if the oil didn't ignite, I love life too much to think of what my wife would do to me if I broke a quart of oil in the family room. Andy and Ron -- thanks for the site URLs. They were interesting and helpful. http://www.threeplanes.net/toolsteel.html http://www.hocktools.com/diyht.htm Ron -- thanks for the surface carbon tip. In addition to grinding the exposed surface off, it tells me that there is a down side to keeping it in the fire longer than necessary. Very respectfully, Larry ------- Date: Wed, 01 Feb 2006 16:06:23 -0000 From: "amsvette" Subject: A wee bit off topic - flame hardening of steel [atlas_craftsman] I recently had a need for some specialty pliers. In my line of work, copier repar, I come accross stripped screws. I had a pair of gasline pliers, which are similar to linesman pliers but have a cutout on the nose of the pliers for gripping small round objects (such as screws, etc). Long story short, Crescent discontinued them when I really needed a pair. Ebay to the rescue. I bought a pair of old J.P. Danielson gasline pliers. It's old and has definitely seen better days. After a quick de-rusting sesion I noticed the jaws are very soft and easily marked. Decided to try my hand at flame hardening and tempering. Based on what I read on the internet, I heated the jaws glowing red with my MAP gas torch, and quenched them in water. Then I tempered them by heating them gradually until the metal turned a blue/brown color and then requenched it. Now my question is (finally!) how do I know if I was successful? I was able to grip the screwhead I was tring to remove, but it still looks like I deformed the teeth on the pliers a bit. Any suggestions? Or do I have to live with the fact I'm trying to use a really old pair of pliers? Sorry for being so long winded. Thanks, Adam ------- Date: Wed, 1 Feb 2006 11:41:49 -0500 From: "Kirk Scammon" Subject: Re: A wee bit off topic - flame hardening of steel Adam: You should check to see if the pliers hardened after the first quench with a file. If they don't harden, the steel does not have enough carbon. You can buy some case hardening compound ( Kasenit ) that will allow you to form a case hardened layer on the steel. Brownells or McMaster Carr both carry it. Kirk ------- Date: Wed, 01 Feb 2006 11:31:45 -0500 From: "mertbaker" Subject: Re: A wee bit off topic - flame hardening of steel Those pliers may not have been made of tool (high carbon) steel. If they were not, they won't harden by that method. If they were, tempering at blue may have gotten 'em too soft. To find out if they were tool steel, use the grinder test. Take an old file, and grind a bit off the end. Note the sparks. Lots of "stars" indicate high carbon content. Try the same test with a common nail note: no stars. Low carbon. Now try the pliers, grinding a bit on the inside of the end of one handle. Tool steel? If so, heat the nose red hot & quench in oil. Try the hardness with a file. If the file will not cut the pliers, set 'em in the toaster oven at 425 for 20 min or so. If the file WILL cut the nose, reheat & quench in water. Try the file. Won't cut? temper at 425° as above. Not tool steel? Heat red hot & stir 'em around in a can of Kasenit (TM) from the hardware store. Reheat & quench in water. Now the surface will be hard, but the rest of the tool will be soft & tough. Mert MertBakerx~xxverizon.net ------- Date: Wed, 1 Feb 2006 21:47:45 EST From: jmartin957x~xxaol.com Subject: Re: A wee bit off topic - flame hardening of steel Mert is right on target. I'd add only a couple of things. If they were soft to start with, they probably weren't a tool steel - 'cause if they went to the expense of decent steel, they would have hardened it. Maybe, though, they were hard originally and lost that hardness. If they are low carbon, you have to add it. Kasenit is indeed the choice. I don't know what hardware Mert frequents though, because even the welding suppliers near me don't stock it anymore. To build up a decent case thickness, it's a good idea to keep the heat on for a few minutes while the piece is covered with Kasenit. Dip it a couple of times. You'll note Mert said nothing about tempering. With a soft steel core, there's not as much need to temper as there is with a solid high carbon tool. The teeth might be a bit more prone to chipping, but they may just work better. When the original poster talked of tempering the tool I presume he played the flame right on the teeth - which may have annealed them. If he really wants to anneal, it might be better to not hit the teeth with the flame, but let the colors run to them. Those teeth are small, and will heat up too quickly in the flame. Which could also decarburize them in the hardening step. John Martin ------- Date: Wed, 01 Feb 2006 19:49:03 -0000 From: "James Davis" Subject: Re: A wee bit off topic - flame hardening of steel You can harden them with an acetylene torch by heating them bright red, then turning off the oxygen and applying the smoking yellow acetylene- only flame (almost pure carbon) to the teeth. Do this several times, then reheat and quench in water. Since the jaws are already soft and only the teeth will be hard, you can temper them to a straw color and should be good to go. What you will have done is case harden the teeth. Jim in Maine ------- Date: Wed, 01 Feb 2006 14:59:42 -0600 From: "Adam Meister" Subject: Re: A wee bit off topic - flame hardening of steel Thanks for the tips Mert, I'll try the grinder test. It looks like I broke a small chunk out of one of the teeth, not smashed them as previously thought so maybe I did harden them after all? Kinda hard to tell. I'd like to get this done so I can blue them with gun blueing (spelling?) and put them to work in my tool kit. I appreciate anyone willing to pass along some of their wisdom. Thanks, Adam ------- Date: Thu, 02 Feb 2006 01:51:38 -0000 From: "Dennis Pasek" Subject: Re: A wee bit off topic - flame hardening of steel Close. Low carbon = Low *hardenability* and there is only so far that you can go by adding carbon at the surface. But, you need to heat treat according to the alloy content. Mert's suggestions are the best you can get for empirical work when you really don't know what you have. That method works especially well for plain carbon and high carbon, low alloy steels. It will not work as well for high alloy tool steels, partly because those materials require much longer tempering times. Remember, high carbon is needed for tool steels, but high carbon alone does not make for tool steel. Spring steels are often near 1% carbon, but with little or no alloy content as with AISI 10100, and are not very useful as tool steels. The alloy additions provide additional properties like high temperature stability (as for HSS), extra toughness in the hardened condition (as with S7) etc. If that pair of pliers is made of tool steel, it is probably still too brittle to use, thus the chipped tooth. If you (Adam) have any big scrap metal recyclers in your area, they might have an X-ray fluorescence scanner that could quickly identify the type of alloy used to make those pliers. This page: http://www.pvsteel.com/ToolSteelBook.asp has some good info if you are interested. Look at the "Tool Steel Selector" link near the bottom of the page. This suggests what types of tool steels to use for various applications. Then look at the "Uses & Heat Treat Data" links in the second column. These data sheets don't specify, but tempering times for tool steels are typically 1 to 2 *hours* at the indicated temperature, and sometimes double tempering is required. Also, while a water quench is appropriate for plain carbon steel, it is much too harsh for most tool steels, and could cause cracking. (Remember the advice to never water quench HSS tools after grinding for this reason.) Some better data sheets are available at: http://www.crucibleservice.com/datasheets/index.cfm Tool steel types are described at: http://info.lu.farmingdale.edu/depts/met/met205/toolsteels.html and anyone interested can go up one level for a full intro. Sorry for the length of my post, but there is a lot more to heat treatment (and a lot more that can go wrong) than you might think. Dennis ------- Date: Thu, 02 Feb 2006 07:51:11 -0600 From: "Adam Meister" Subject: Re: A wee bit off topic - flame hardening of steel Thanks for the added info John. I compared the amount of sparks of the grinding wheel and the pliers and an old file appeared to be the same. So I can assume the pliers are (or were) high carbon steel, I think that I messed up trying to temper them with too much heat. All may be a non- issue as Paul sent me a link for the exact pliers I'm looking for brand new. I'm kinda growing attatched to these old pliers though, so I may finish them anyway. They'll look good next to my 1937 Craftsman 12" x 36" lathe when it's done. Thanks, Adam ------- NOTE TO FILE: The following conversation was extracted from a sherline group discussion dated Jan 2, 2007 initially titled Miniature Wood Turning on the Sherline. The original tool choice discussion can be found in the file "Turning Wood on the Metal Lathe" on this site. NOTE ALSO: The title gets renamed several times during this conversation here about heat treating. If someone used a search engine in the archives he would be unlikely to find all the pieces of this discussion. Hence the advantage of checking this site, where like-stuff gets stuck together ... usually ... sometimes ... okay, maybe ;-) ------- Re: Miniature Wood Turning on the Sherline [sherline group] Posted by: "dkaschnerx~xxcomcast.net" Date: Thu Jan 4, 2007 8:22 am ((PST)) Tom Bank wrote: >> I would guess that the Henry Taylor set offered by Lee Valley would be good, probably as good as the Sorby tools. The Lee Valley U.S. made set I would question. It is W-1 steel. It should be O-1 or some other Oil tempered steel. << "Alan Haisley" wrote: > Tom, I don't know O from W from A or whatever with regard to tool steels except that the letter relates to the tempering medium. Could you say something about why the oil hardening is more appropriate for this than the water hardening. Also, where and when would you use the water hardening steel. Thanks, Alan Haisley < Interesting comments... O-1 is a deeper hardening steel than W-1. Both steels are great for tools that are not subjected to extensive heat when in use. As part of the heat treatment process both (all) steels require tempering after the quench. Quenching, when accomplished properly, will yield a very hard but brittle tool. In this state the steel is so hard it cannot be cut with a file (the typical test) but the edge will chip very easily yeilding a less-than-useful tool. Drawing the temper involves heating the steel to a subcritical temperature in order to soften the steel. We are trading off hardness for a softer, but tougher, edge. The degree of tempering is dependent on the intended use for the tool. For example, swords must be tougher than knives. A sword takes more impact and would shatter if tempered like a small knife. A quick gauge of temper is usually expressed as the color that is seen on the steel surface. This color is caused by oxidataion on the surface. Colors may range from light straw to deep purples... purples being the softest (lowest Rockwell hardness rating)... again, soft is not necessarily bad! Purples may be warranted for the body of a hammer head. Often harder zones of a tool are backed by softer, tougher zones. This is a differential temper. When used in cutting tools, may allow a harder edge because of the soft, tough backing. IMHO, W-1 is easier to use if you want a differential temper due to its shallower hardening characteristic. (As a rule faster steels are shallower hardening than slower steels.) So both steels require tempering to the same hardness for a given application. W-1, being a water hardened steel requires a 'fast' quench in order to get 'under the nose' in time, typically less that 1 second... i.e., the temperature must be lowered from critical (non-magnetic) to below Ms in less than one second to achieve maximum hardness (don't ask me to explain this one - lots of metalurgy going on here :-). O-1 is a 'slower' quench steel, i.e, it can take longer (if I recall correctly, up to 6 seconds?) to get below Ms and still achieve maximum hardness. In fact if you were to quench O-1 in water (a relatively 'fast' quench medium you would most likely hear the dreaded 'ping'.. and your steel is broken ;-) O-1 cannot take the stress of a fast quench. The extreme internal stresses caused by a fast quench of O-1 would tear it apart. That said (sorry to ramble, but man, I love heat treating :-) I tend to like HSS for turning tools. The reason is that turning generates a lot of heat at the edge of the tool from friction. This heat will tend to overly soften the tool edge... ie. when the edge turns blue in simple carbon steels it is usually too soft to retain a good edge for any period of time for turning. You will be resharpening much more often once the edge blues and/or you will need to grind away the softer steel to get back to a reasonably hard zone that will hold an edge longer. OTOH, HSS is much more 'red-hard', i.e. it can turn blue or purple and not soften the way simple carbon steels do. (BTW, W-1 and O-1 are relatively simple carbon steel.) For this reason all of my turning tools are HSS. My knifes, hand plane irons, etc... are simple carbon steel (O-1, W-1, 1095, etc.). Applications like cutting leather, carving wood, planing wood, etc. don't typcially generate enough heat at the edge to affect the temper. Turning wood does. Long and short of it... IMHO, W-1 vs. O-1 is not as critical in a turning tool as simple steel vs HSS. IF you have W-1 and no O-1, and are aware of the perils of overheating go for it. If you can get a hold of some HSS to use for the tool, even better. Sorry to ramble, just let me know if the messages get too long-winded. :-) Dan ------- Re: Miniature Wood Turning on the Sherline Posted by: "Jerry G" chieftoolmakerx~xxearthlink.net Date: Thu Jan 4, 2007 9:01 am ((PST)) Hey! You forgot "Tempil Sticks". If you want great tools that do not soften even when red, get some Stellite. Jerry G (Glickstein) ------- Re: Miniature Wood Turning on the Sherline Posted by: "dkaschnerx~xxcomcast.net" Date: Thu Jan 4, 2007 10:22 am ((PST)) Jerry: Great point! Tempil sticks are an excellent and accurate way to measure temperature. I used to use them a lot. But only for specific temperature ranges (for heat treating steels that I commonly work with). I should keep a larger (temperature) range on hand. Stellite... not familiar with it. Is it essentially S-7? I use that a lot for dies that will take major battering at high temperatures (like custom dies I make for my power hammer). Is Stellite tough to grind? Some of these steels wreak havoc on abrasives. I also have a tough time forging air-hardening steel to shape. Once they are heated to red and beyond, the steel will just not move under the hammer and it takes a fairly sophisticated (and long) heat treat schedule to anneal. I'd be interested to hear more about Stellite. Always looking to increase my steel-stash. :-) Dan ------- Re: Miniature Wood Turning on the Sherline Posted by: "Jerry G" chieftoolmakerx~xxearthlink.net Date: Thu Jan 4, 2007 2:01 pm ((PST)) Hi Dan, Google out Haynes Stellite.... If you can find any, grab it! A bitch to grind, but it is the best toolbit. Will not chip like carbide. Will not "fold up" like HSS at really high temps where the cutting edge is actually red! I think VR/Wesson Tangtung "G" is similar. (Very high "red" hardness.) Would you believe that some guys used to draw with the Tempil Sticks, thinking they were crayons...? :) Later, Jerry G (Glickstein) ------- Re: Miniature Wood Turning on the Sherline-Hardenable Steel Grades Posted by: "Tom Bank" trbankx~xxpaonline.com eimcr Date: Thu Jan 4, 2007 2:24 pm ((PST)) Alan: The Sorby and Henry Taylor tools are Sheffield steel. I like that steel for cutting tools, whether woodworking or fly fishing hooks. (Get the hooks from Partridge of Redditch, still the best after over a hundred years!). If you know A, O, and W, you know they stand for the hardening mediums: air, oil, and water. Air hardening is special purpose, used in situations where you don't want to take a chance on the piece you are making bending in the process of hardening it. It costs twice as much as either of the other two. Oil hardening is what you normally use for non-metal cutting tools: knives, chisels, gouges, etc. Water hardening is a general purpose hardenable steel, inexpensive and easily machined before hardening. As MSC puts it, it is frequently used without hardening for maintenance applications. If you are making a cutting tool for a specific application, a one time use and then throw it away, W-1 will probably be good enough. I am in the process of setting up to make four pairs of shutters. I will be using a special decorative edge on the side rails, 32 ft. of pine. I made a special router bit to do the job using W-1. It should handle that job and then will probably never be used again. Regards, Tom Bank ------- Excuse me while I step into a phone booth and adopt my heat treater Posted by: "Bill Vallejo" tankyank_1x~xxmsn.com Date: Fri Jan 5, 2007 4:16 am ((PST)) "Jerry G" wrote: > Hi Alan, > Let me jump in here with my .02 cents worth. > "Hardening" is an all encompassing term that really should be properly > identified as "Heat Treatment of Metals". It is an exact science. > The procedure is to heat the tool steel (selected by the percentage > of carbon) above the "critical temperature" and then quench it. > This changes the molecular structure of the steel. > The quenching medium can be oil, water or air. > The application is the key..... That determines the choice of the > right tool steel, the right quenching medium, etc. > The tool steel can be heated using a heat treating oven, or a > torch, or in a salt bath. > I am just "skimming" the information to give everyone a smattering > of the subject. More info is available.... > Just ask! :) Regards, Jerry G (Glickstein) Hardening is but one operation in the all encompassing term "heat treating" which also includes tempering, stress relieving and annealing to name just a few. Any type of high carbon and alloy tool steel will crack and even shatter if quenched in water and for some, even oil is too fast a quench medium and must be air quenched. After the quench (hardening) the material is then tempered. Tempering accomplishes two things at once. Firstly, it relieves the internal stresses induced in the material when quenched and is also how the desired hardness is fine tuned. As quenched, all hardenable steel is much to hard and brittle. The higher the tempering temperature, the softer and less brittle the material will be. Space does not permit me to even scratch the surface of heat treating but it isn't as exact a science as we wish it was. p.s. The term "oven" annoys forgers and heat treaters to no end. We use furnaces, bakers use ovens. No one's probably unaware of it at this point but yes, I do have the attitude of one that has mastered the magical art. It has also mastered me more times that I'll ever admit. ------- Re: Excuse me while I step into a phone booth and adopt my heat Posted by: "Jerry G" chieftoolmakerx~xxearthlink.net Date: Fri Jan 5, 2007 6:10 am ((PST)) Hi Bill: If you don't think "heat treating" is an "exact science, Check with Alfred Heller..... :) Later, Jerry G ------- Re: And another thing... Posted by: "Jerry G" chieftoolmakerx~xxearthlink.net Date: Fri Jan 5, 2007 6:17 am ((PST)) Hi Bill: Why should professional people get annoyed to no end? The terms furnaces, ovens, are used interchangeably..... If you put a loaf of bread in your furnace, will it not bake? If you achieve enough heat/temperature, then an oven with the proper controls is capable of heat treating. Later, Jerry G (Glickstein) Student of many "arts" Master of none...... :) ------- Re: And another thing... Posted by: "Carol & Jerry Jankura" jerry.jankurax~xxstratos.net Date: Fri Jan 5, 2007 6:21 am ((PST)) Hi, Bill: Glass makers - the BIG ones that produce all of those bulbs you screw into the sockets so you can see your furnaces - use ovens, not furnaces, to anneal their glassware in a big way. The name of the monstronsity that does the work is a "lehring oven" in honor of the person who developed the process. Since annealing is part of heat treating, I guess we can say that either term is correct? :) Jerry Jankura Strongsville, Ohio ------- Re: Excuse me while I step into a phone booth and adopt my heat Posted by: "dkaschnerx~xxcomcast.net" Date: Fri Jan 5, 2007 8:19 am ((PST)) Bill: Were you referring to high carbon alloyed steels or high carbon and/or alloyed steels? Just wondering because I quench in water even more than oil. For me, oil is so messy with the smoke and all, of course, now that I am starting to use peanut oil it does smell a lot better. :-) And it has a whole lot less chemicals for me to worry about inhaling... W-1, 1095 etc... quench in water nicely (especially with an interrupted quench). They also produce a very nice hamon that, at least for me, is tough to get with an oil quench. I tend to use simple high carbon steels for my woodworking cutting tools. They work fine and, for me, water is so much more convenient... but like I mentioned in a previous post, if the tool is to be used in a high heat application, I get more exotic in my choice of steel and subsequent heat treatment. It's just what works for me. Others get better results with other steels. BTW, I understand your point about furnace vs. oven... Had this discussion more than once before with others from our local Guild. Guess I'm not too exacting... I tend to think I have a forge (actually a few propane forges) that some would refer to as a furnace and a couple of electric heat treat "ovens" (at least that's what I usually call them - when they are behaving :-) If I was a ceramics-guy I would probably call them a "kiln". Heck, that's where I got a lot of the parts for them the local ceramics shop. Ceramics kiln people have a lot of experience with high-temperature equipment, heating elements and refractory, so I hang around them a lot. :-) The electric heat treat ovens see a lot of service for normalizing (for very controlled, reducing heat cycles) and annealing. Tempering is another service they are pressed into, although it wasn't too long ago that I used the house oven and/or toaster oven. My wife and I get along a lot better after I built the heat treating ovens (especially when I missed a little oil from a quench... she wasn't very enamored of me at those times :-) Any way, great thread... sorry if I get a little off topic. Good to hear from so many people on this topic! Dan ------- Re: Excuse me while I step into a phone booth and adopt my heat Posted by: "Bill Vallejo" tankyank_1x~xxmsn.com Date: Fri Jan 5, 2007 12:12 pm ((PST)) I didn't phrase that quite right. I actually meant to say any hardenable high carbon steel. It's not really an issue in thin cross sections less than 1/4 to 1/2 inch, especially with an interrupted quench, but get them into the temper furnace ASAP. For small hobby applications, any type of oil will work very well and you're right about food grade oils smelling better and being non toxic. I must say that you know what you're doing. This is all pretty much the same procedures I always used when making small forging tools and the like. ------- Re: Excuse me while I step into a phone booth and adopt my heat Posted by: "Jerry G" chieftoolmakerx~xxearthlink.net Date: Fri Jan 5, 2007 10:50 am ((PST)) Dan: Just a little tip. In regard to the smoke you mention with oil quenching....The faster you dunk it, the less smoke. If you are really slow, keep a fire extinguisher handy..... ! Later, Jerry G (Glickstein) P.S. What the hell is a "hamon"? ------- Re: Excuse me while I step into a phone booth and adopt my heat Posted by: "dkaschnerx~xxcomcast.net" Date: Fri Jan 5, 2007 1:51 pm ((PST)) Good point. I keep a fire extinguisher and a metal top. If I get a flare up the metal top usually takes care of it. Never had to use the fire extinguisher but it's always there and I make sure the charge is good. For quenching small parts I used to get lazy and just use motor oil in the open air... but now that I have my forge set up and a handy source of peanut oil it's just as easy to use that... heck, I've been known to be a little slower than I should just 'cause I like the smell of peanut oil :-) Interesting, peanut oil seems to be a fairly 'quick' oil quench medium. Does a great job with 5160, which by the way, is a steel I like a lot also ... makes a real tough blade with the right heat treat. Dan ------- Re: Miniature Wood Turning on the Sherline Posted by: "Ron Ginger" rongingerx~xxadelphia.net Date: Fri Jan 5, 2007 6:26 am ((PST)) Tom, good info on heat treating, thanks. How about a bit more on the Air hardening material. I have to make a very long tap- 1 1/8dia, 12 pitch, 14 inches long threaded area with a 14" long pilot on the leading edge. This is to tap staybolt holes in a boiler for the WW&F Ry #9. The holes in two sheets about 12" apart must have a continious thread. From my previous experience I know things like drill rod warp badly when quenched. Will Air hard likely work- I have only a torch to heat this with, not a proper furnace. The good news is it only needs to be a really hard cutting edge over about a 6" length near the center of the tap. ron ginger ------- Re: Miniature Wood Turning on the Sherline Posted by: "Tom Bank" trbankx~xxpaonline.com eimcr Date: Fri Jan 5, 2007 7:46 pm ((PST)) "Ron Ginger" rongingerx~xxadelphia.net wrote: >>Tom, good info on heat treating, thanks. How about a bit more on the >>Air hardening material. Ron: My guess would be that the air hardening steel would be the best for that reason. When heat treating it, I would also cut a short section on the tap handle end of the thing to a diameter I could chuck in a variable speed electric drill. Then suspend the drill with the new die in the drill so the die is hanging vertically, turn the drill on to a low speed, and heat the length of the die that will do the cutting. That way the heating will be as even as you can get it, which will help in avoiding warp. Keep it turning until it is reasonably cool. Beyond that, are you talking about the *REAL* WW&F #9? If so, WOW! What a project to be involved in! If that's the case, you might consider talking with people who understand such things better than I do. I assume you are coming to this year's Cabin Fever in a couple weeks. If you could arrange to stay over Mondayor get here early, the Strasburg Railroad is just across the river from York (figuratively speaking), as is the Pennsylvania Railroad Museum (actually, across the street from each other). The people there do all kinds of maintenance and reconstruction on locomotives. A couple years ago I watched a video at a club meeting of their team "turning" the front sheet for a Belpaire firebox. Not the kind of job you do on a lathe; this task is performed with a number of very large torches and large sledge hammers. The sheet started out flat. A moderate sized hole was cut in it and then the edges were "turned" down to fit very accurately in the back end of the boiler. That was followed by turning the sheet over and then the outside edge sections were "turned" back the other way (with rounded corners) to fit onto the squared off firebox that was loved by the PRR and GN railroads. Quite an awesome video. That team could build an engine from scratch. If you talked to them, I'm sure they could give you pointers on what the tap you need should look like, how to make it, and how to use it. They might even be willing to loan you one. I wish you success, Tom Bank ------- Heat treating Posted by: "vikebo" vikebox~xxhome.no vikebo Date: Fri Jan 5, 2007 6:26 am ((PST)) Seems like it is a lot of knowledge on heat treating here. I am not heat treating anything at the moment, but have made some tools earlier. I have previously tried to heat treat some things I have made from "Silver steel". From what I have heard silver steel is tool steel with enough carbon to enable hardening. One supplier said theirs was actually Sandvik 20AP (link below). http://www.sandvik.com/sandvik/0140/SM/se01240.nsf/ f9aff13490287b65ea2564f50042c670/55011b253b2fa62ac125689300656e85! OpenDocument I am not too happy with all my results. Since I have no furnace I have used a propane flame to heat the steel for the hardening. I have been heating until "cherry red", but not sure I have always kept it at that temperature long enough. Is the timing important to allow the whole part to get the correct temperature, or does the metallurgic process also take some time? The parts have been quenced in water (have been told to use water at room temperature without bubbles in, let it stay for a day before use). After quenching I have polished the parts and tempered them until "light straw" on a plate. I have also used the rear part of HSS drills sometimes, it is available in many diameters and easy to find. Usually it is not hardened to avoid damage to the chuck jaws so it is possible to machine it before heat treating. Any recommendations regarding heat treating of HSS (like quenching media)? Eivind -------- Re: Heat treating Posted by: "Alan Haisley" alanhyx~xxadelphia.net Date: Fri Jan 5, 2007 8:47 am ((PST)) Eivind: To tell if the initial heating is hot enough, you should try a permanent magnet. When heated to a high enough temperature steel loses its magnetic properties. Also, depending on the size of the piece you may need more torches since you really want to get the whole piece to the "critical temperature" at about the same time. If you hold it hot too long, it can lose carbon to the combustion process. Commercial heat treating often uses either special furnaces with controlled atmosphere or a stainless steel foil wrapper to keep the heated part away from oxygen. Of course the sizes that we work in on Sherline tools is small enough that I suspect we do fine just bringing a piece up to temperature for a couple of minutes. One point in your note concerns me after reading Sandvik's information. It sounds like you are leaving the steel in the quench overnight before tempering. Sandvik says to temper immediately after quenching. Sometimes MAPP gas torches are recommended - propane flame is not considered hot enough. Wikipedia has an article on MAPP gas. Personally, since I have a propane torch and don't have a MAPP torch I use that. Of course I have no hardness testing equipment and so can't really tell how successful my attempts are; and I have never attempted HSS at all. Alan Haisley ------- Re: Heat treating Posted by: "Alan Haisley" alanhyx~xxadelphia.net Date: Fri Jan 5, 2007 8:20 pm ((PST)) Eivind, I think your question about HSS got forgotten so I'm reposting the sense of it. Suppose I cut off the soft end of an old, worn out HSS drill to make a little tool - perhaps a cutter for a small boring bar or something. Let's take three cases, since we work little: 1) I want to use a little stub from a 1/16" drill. 2) I want to use a piece of a 1/8" drill instead. 3) I'm using a big piece, a 1.5" piece from the back end of a 3/4" drill. In each case, I'd like to end up with the business end as hard and tough as I can get it while the rest is tough enough to be part of a lathe tool. Alternatively, I am making a really hard axle or pivot shaft or something and want to harden the whole thing. How do I make this softer HSS hard? What do I do differently in heat treating, quenching, and tempering? Are there specific times, temperatures, and quenches that you can suggest? If I missed the mark on this for you Eivind, please chime in with changes or clarifications. Alan Haisley ------- Re: Heat treating Posted by: "vikebo" vikebox~xxhome.no Date: Mon Jan 8, 2007 2:09 am ((PST)) Alan: Good point about the magnet, I have heard it before, but had forgotten. Will try to remember that the next time. The thing you mention about the steel losing carbon to the combustion process may be the reason that some of my parts have been soft after hardening. The datasheet says 3-6 min "soaking time" for parts of less than 5 mm. Since I have not got a controlled atmosphere and a wrapper foil would make it hard to know the temperature, I will just heat up to the correct temperature and quench. I usually temper as soon as possible after hardening, but only if the hardening was successful :-) However, the steel usually needs to be polished before tempering to see the colors when tempering. I was told by someone I knew that it was an advantage to let the water stay overnight before quenching. The reason, as also mentioned in later posts by several posters, was for the bubbles to get out. Dan also has a good point on making the part oversize so the decarbonized layer can be removed with a grinder. Thanks for all the suggestions and help! Eivind p.s. I guess you got all the points I had thought of, and a few extra too. Normally I harden things to be used as cutting tools, but other applications for HSS could also be of interest. ------- Re: Heat treating Posted by: "Jerry G" chieftoolmakerx~xxearthlink.net Date: Fri Jan 5, 2007 9:37 am ((PST)) Hi Guys: Tempering ASAP is always recommended because of the internal stresses built up in the tool from the hardening process. You might fish out your "overnight water soak" to discover some cracks and fissures... especially at stress riser points like sharp internal corners without fillets, etc. Later, Jerry G (Glickstein) ------- Re: Heat treating Posted by: "Smitty" TORYRANGERx~xxwi.rr.com Date: Fri Jan 5, 2007 12:46 pm ((PST)) The bit in his discription is about letting the water sit overnight to normalize, not about quenching the part overnight. ------- Re: Heat treating... Normalized Water!!!??? Never heard that before. Posted by: "Alan Haisley" alanhyx~xxadelphia.net Date: Fri Jan 5, 2007 7:58 pm ((PST)) Smitty wrote: > OK, you caught me, I just pulled that word out of my butt!. If you let > water sit I think it will loose some of the oxygen that is suspended > in it. I think that is what he is talking about. Smitty If you let water stand, it will lose much of the dissolved gasses: nitrogen, oxygen, CO2, and argon principally in decending order of concentration - although not all since eventually equilibrium is reached. To the taste it becomes "flat". (It will also lose most of its dissolved chlorine if it is American water). Perhaps in that state, gasses remaining are either less apt to move to the surface of the steel or there is a change in specific heat that slightly changes the rate of quench for the better. Alan Haisley ------- Re: Heat treating... Normalized Water!!!??? Never heard that before. Posted by: "Keith Green" ksggx~xxtelus.net Date: Fri Jan 5, 2007 9:53 pm ((PST)) Though I've not heard of it, I think the idea might have a little merit: I remember back in trade school when we had to quench some parts we'd heat-treated, one of the prime culprits of a bad quench was the air bubbles coming out of solution in the quench-water and forming on the part. These caused uneven quenching if you didn't stir vigorously to get them off. Also, I recall that chlorine getting into the metal will cause failure in the long run as it does something to the surface layers that promotes metal-fatigue. I doubt that there's all that much chlorine in tap water, but that might be part of the reason to let the water stand a while before using it. The chlorine dissipates out of tap water if you let it stand a while or boil it. Keith ------- Re: Heat treating Posted by: "dkaschnerx~xxcomcast.net" Date: Fri Jan 5, 2007 10:42 am ((PST)) Jerry, I'll second that... learned the hard way about not tempering ASAP. Waited until the next day and when I went to get the blade it was broken. Now I try to temper 'real quick' after the quench. Alan, good point about decarb. For larger pieces, like a knife blade, Iju st leave a little extra steel to grind away and take off the decarb layer with the grinder. Like you said, given the size of the parts we are making for the Sherline I would guess that final sharpening would get all of the softer steel without any special precautions. BTW, you don't really need a hardness tester. The easy way is to grab a file after the quench and see if it skates across the surface. I think files are typically in the neighborhood of Rc 65, so if the file won't cut, you have succeeded. Another suggestion is to be sure and not get the steel too hot, i.e., to far above the critical temperature (non-magnetic). This will tend to give the steel a coarse grain which can weaken it. May not have to worry too much using a propane torch, but on small parts you may still get plenty hot. Just test with the magnet often and you should be OK. Dan ------- Re: Heat treating Posted by: "Jerry G" chieftoolmakerx~xxearthlink.net Date: Fri Jan 5, 2007 11:41 am ((PST)) All: As mentioned, especially for small parts, the SS quenching bags are great with three caveats: 1. Add some temps to allow for the insulating properties of the bag. 2. When loading, watch out! The inner edges of the opening at the top of the bags are razor sharp! Handle with care. 3. When going to quench, I always keep a three cornered machinist's scraper handy, and stab the bag repeatedly as I lower the bag into the oil... To allow the oil in to do the job. Then, you get some smoke signals...... :) Later, Jerry G (Glickstein) ------- Hamon Posted by: "Nelson Wittstock" k8djcx~xxzoominternet.net Date: Fri Jan 5, 2007 11:41 am ((PST)) Jerry asked, "What the hell is a "hamon"? It's a kind of sandwich -- hamon rye! Nelson ------- Re: Excuse me while I step into a phone booth and adopt my heat Posted by: "Smitty" TORYRANGERx~xxwi.rr.com Date: Fri Jan 5, 2007 1:13 pm ((PST)) In swordsmithing , *hamon* (??, /hamon/^? ) (from Japanese , literally "blade pattern") is a visual effect created on the blade by the tempering process. It is the transition between the region of harder martensitic steel of the blade edge and the softer pearlitic steel of the back of the sword. This visual effect is from the harder Martensite crystals in the steel of the edge which make the steel harder. This difference in hardness is the objective of the tempering process, the visual effect is purely a side effect. Many modern reproductions do not have natural hamon; their hamon is faked via various processes such as acid etch , or more crude ones such as wire brushing . Some modern reproductions with natural hamon are also subjected to acid etching to enhance that hamon's prominence. From wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamon_%28swordsmithing%29 Smitty ------- Re: Hamon Posted by: "dkaschnerx~xxcomcast.net" Date: Fri Jan 5, 2007 1:31 pm ((PST)) Sorry. I got carried away. After sending that message, I realized that I used a term that wasn't previously defined. A hamon is sometimes (inappropriately) called a 'temper line'. Bladesmtihs are fond of hamons, especially when making Japanese weapons (although I think they are just plain cool looking). A good hamon shows a nice frosty line between the harder edge steel and the softer steel in the blade's spine and a lot of swirling activity in the edge portion and a color differential between the soft and hard areas of the blade. Hamons are associated with a differential heat treat where one specifically leaves the spine soft (and tough)... because of the tough backing you can generally get away with a harder edge and avoid chipping and cracking. To bring out the hamon you etch the blade in some acid after heat treatment. Some use warm vinegar or lemon juice, others diluted ferric chloride (technically not an acid, but a salt) others even go so far as to use diluted muratic acid... either way, because difference in hardness the acid will attack the steel a different rates yielding the color difference and really neat patterns in the steel. Japanese bladesmiths have all kinds of names for different kinds of patterns in the hamon. Me, I just like their look. To me they also say "this is a high performance blade"... kind of braggin rights :-) 'cause you don't often find them on mass produced blades. I'm working on a set of kitchen knives for my step daughter right now that are differentially heat treated and etched and polished to reveal the hamon. Funny thing about a hamon. Most bladesmiths find it hard, if not down- right impossible, to get a hamon in an oil quench. Too slow. Need a quick medium like water or brine. That pretty much dictates W-1 or a 1090 / 1095 steel... even though these are water quenched, I use an interrupted quench (3 seconds in, 3 seconds out until I can handle it with bare hands) to reduce the stress and avoid broken blades... fast quenches create a huge amount of stress in the steel. Oops... there I go again, with the long messages. :-) Dan ------- Re: Heat treating [yes all these are still in the sherline group] Posted by: "Jerry G" chieftoolmakerx~xxearthlink.net Date: Sat Jan 6, 2007 12:20 am ((PST)) January 05, 2007 Alan Haisley wrote: >>That reminds me. I think that either in an ENCO ad or a J&L ad there was an item of a set of "hardness testing files". I assume that what these are is a set of files of varying hardnesses for rough testing. << Hi Alan, and all: Yes, that is correct. The files range from 40 Rc to 65 Rc, in 5 Rc increments. Me? I'll take the Rockwell Tester any time. :) Jerry G (Glickstein) ------- Re: Heat treating Posted by: "Jerry G" chieftoolmakerx~xxearthlink.net Date: Mon Jan 8, 2007 2:26 am ((PST)) Hi Eivind. Another good tip for you and whoever, I used (successfully) a glass bead blaster to remove the scale from hardening (heat treating), when we ran out of Stainless Steel bags, etc. Later, Jerry G (Glickstein) ------- Re: Heat treating Posted by: "Tim H." tim-henryx~xxmicrotune.com Date: Mon Jan 8, 2007 3:35 am ((PST)) Hi, I just hardened some O-1 parts the other day. A product that I use to keep oxidation under control is "P B C" Non-scale compound from Brownells. http://www.brownells.com/aspx/NS/store/ProductDetail.aspx? p=1122&title=PBC?%20NON-SCALE%20COMPOUND You heat the part to 500 degree F (or so) and the powder sticks to it (partially melts on). Heat treat the part and if you quench in oil the coating comes off later in boiling water. I haven't quenched in water but that would also remove the coating at the same time. Now when you temper you are going to get a little oxidation but you can use that to gauge when to stop. Since 500 degrees is in the tempering range you couldn't re-coat with "P B C". Tim H. ------- Re: Heat treating Posted by: "Tom Bank" trbankx~xxpaonline.com Date: Mon Jan 8, 2007 8:18 am ((PST)) This has been a really interesting thread for a number of us. Lots of information exchanged. My experience with heat treating has been spotty, but dates back to when I was in Junior High, back in the golden days of the early '50s. In metal shop one of the projects we boys had to make was a cold chisel: hacksaw off a piece of 1/4" hex rod, file the end to shape, then heat treat it with Kasinet in one of several small furnaces which were about 8" to 10" long by 4" to 5" wide at the mouth and maybe 3" high, again at the mouth. These little gems were composed of iron castings with a custom made fire brick interior and were mounted on single shaft pedestals with flared bases. Natural gas was fed in along the sides of the furnace floor and I don't remember any hood to carry off the heat or fumes. As I remember it, for each furnace six or eight twist handle valves regulated the gas feed to keep the temp even across the chamber and one master valve turned the gas on and off. There was no door on the mouth of the thing. I thought that those things were the cat's meow, and I always wanted one. Unfortunately, I moved away from there and wasn't on hand when the school system dumped all the metal shop equipment. But I'm wondering, are little furnaces like that still available on the market? Where would I go looking for one if I decided I had money that needed to be spent on such a worthy cause? And what should I expect to have to pay for one, either new or in reasonable condition? Regards, Tom Bank ------- Re: Heat treating Posted by: "dkaschnerx~xxcomcast.net" Date: Mon Jan 8, 2007 11:06 am ((PST)) Tom: Bladesmiths/blacksmiths make them all the time. You can buy or make one. I have made a few... different sizes, one for forge welding, etc. They are relatively easy and inexpensive. Most bladesmiths/blackmsiths find that one size does not fit all jobs and so build a new forge when the need arises. Some follow the KISS philosophy and others add controllers, pyrometers, etc. The biggest difference is that most of these forges run off on propane. There are also natural gas forges and electric heat treat ovens out there too. (I also have a couple of heat treat ovens that I made.) If anyone is interested I can dig up a few links to good 'starter' sites. Dan ------- Re: Heat treating Posted by: "WILLARD WHEATON" wwheatonjrx~xxverizon.net Date: Mon Jan 8, 2007 11:09 am ((PST)) Tom: You can make your own, if you're so inclined. Check out furnaces and burners in the following site: castinghobbyx~xxyahoogroups.com Willard E. Wheaton Jr. ------- Re: Heat treating Posted by: "David Clark" dcclark111x~xxcomcast.net Date: Mon Jan 8, 2007 11:36 am ((PST)) Tom: Take a good look around Lindsay Books: http://www.lindsaybks.com/prod/index.html for example: http://www.lindsaybks.com/dgjp/djgbk/ffurn/index.html For those of you not familier with these publications; be prepared to have your entire life sucked into this stuff. DC ------- Re: Heat Treating -- Small Furnace or Oven Posted by: "Tom Bank" trbankx~xxpaonline.com eimcr Date: Mon Jan 8, 2007 9:38 pm ((PST)) To those who replied, many thanks. I think there is enough info to get me started. Since I don't have natural gas here, knowing that propane is acceptable sounds good. My wife wants me to get a medium size grill next summer. I assume I can grab the tank when her back is turned. As for Lindsay, I will be going to Cabin Fever the end of the month, a good place to pick up any of their offerings. Regards, Tom Bank ------- Re: Heat Treatment of Metals [sherline] Posted by: "Bradford Chaucer" bjchaucerx~xxcharter.net Date: Thu Jan 11, 2007 10:51 am ((PST)) I've been reading the posts on heat treating with interest, and have a question or two. 1. When doing the initial quench to harden the steel, is it necessary to bring the metal back down to room temp or is it just necessary to bring it below some point, for instance the tempering temp? 2. When tempering, do you quench after the heat soaking period, or do you merely allow it to cool in air. Thank you in advance. Regards, Bradford J. Chaucer ------- Re: Heat Treatment of Metals Posted by: "Jerry G" chieftoolmakerx~xxearthlink.net Date: Thu Jan 11, 2007 11:25 am ((PST)) Hi Bradford: I quench the tool by putting it in the oil or water bath, then let it sit in the wire basket, or on a suitable surface if it is to be air quenched. And when it reaches the temp of the quenching media, which is slightly raised by the immersing, do any cleaning necessary to remove scale, etc. Then, the part goes into the tempering oven(furnace). Some applications require that the tempering oven (furnace) be reduced in temps a little at a time over a specified period of time. The same quenching media should be used when quenching from "tempering" as from "hardening". Regards, Jerry G (Glickstein) ------- Book on heat treatment [sherline] Posted by: "vikebo" vikebox~xxhome.no Date: Thu Feb 8, 2007 11:41 am ((PST)) The subject of heat treatment was up on the group not too long ago. Since several people seemed interested in the subject I will mention a source of some information. When I recently packed my tings and moved to another city I found a book which I had not yet read. It is called "Hardening, tempering & heat treatment (for model engineers)" by Tubal Cain (isbn 0-85242-837-5). I have now read most of the book and found the information very useful. It explains things with curves, figures and understandable text. There are also colour charts to show what colours you get at different temperatures in the furnace and when tempering. BTW: I have no connection to the author or book in any way. Eivind ------- Re: Book on heat treatment Posted by: "vikebo" vikebox~xxhome.no Date: Thu Feb 8, 2007 12:43 pm ((PST)) "Jerry G" wrote: > Hi Eivind, Do they show or mention optical thermometers? Or pyrometers? > To see the colors in the furnace? Regards, Jerry G (Glickstein) Hi Jerry: There is an appendix on thermocouples and pyrometers; I have not read that yet. To cite the text below one of the pictures: "Indications of colour/ temperature using a 3 x 4 in. steel plate photographed in the author's muffle furnace". Six pictures are shown, at 700, 725, 750, 780, 800, and 840 degrees. The idea is to estimate the temperature based on the colour of the steel part. Some problems with the method are also mentioned. I guess the main advantage is low cost, and since the book is written for model engineers that can be an important one. (He also mentioned the differences between european and american methods, which you told about in an earlier post.) Eivind ------- Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2007 12:40:20 -0500 From: "Ken Meltsner" Subject: Re: [OldTools] Super secrets of samurai swords... A long time ago (~1980), we made samurai sword-like knives in metallurgy lab at MIT. Prof. Ogilvie had examined sections from real swords (from Boston's MFA, I believe) and we used clay in different thicknesses to approximate the real thing. I apologize for any memory lapses -- my class notes are either buried in the basement or left behind in one of my repeated moves. Basically, the science is: * Sword is coated in clay to slow down the rate of cooling during the water quench * The back of the sword is coated with a thick layer so that it cools the slowest. * The edge has the thinnest coating (practically none) so that it cools quite quickly * The clay is dried and the sword is heated hot enough that the metal turns into austenite, a crystalline form of steel stable at high temperatures. * When quenched in water, the front edge turns into martensite (the hardest form of steel) and expands about 4%. This is OK because the back of the sword is still quite hot and soft. Martensite is only meta-stable, by the way, and forms when austenite is cooled so quickly that the atoms can't shift around fast enough to reach the form stable at lower temperatures. When you temper martensite, some of it transforms to that lower temperature form. * As the sword continues to cool in the water, the steel continues to transforms towards the back of the sword. As it transforms, it expands. At some point (around the middle), the steel no longer transforms into martensite and changes, instead, into the stable lower temperature form: pearlite (layered ferrite and cementite, IIRC). Pealite is softer and tougher than martensite. The layered structure is really good at stopping cracks from getting larger. * As the sword cools further, the heat from the back edge of the sword tempers the martensite at the front edge, making it tougher (and a little softer, but not much). * Since the leading edge of the sword has already cooled and hardened, it's put into compression as the back edge cools and contracts. (thermal expansion in reverse...) * Everything cools all the way down and the sword can be removed from the water. The complicated heat treatment (and it's definitely nerve-wracking to do, even with a cheap knife blank) causes the samurai sword features: * The blade is curved because the front edge expands and the back doesn't. * The martensite near the front edge etches differently from the pearlite in the blade's back after it's polished, so you get the characteristic line. In fact, if you pattern the clay, you can get a wavy edge, peaks, etc. that match the thickness of the clay. * The front is really, really hard, but the compressive stress created as the sword cools keeps cracks from getting larger, effectively making the sword much tougher. * The back is relatively soft and tough, which is what you'd like when chopping people. There are further variations -- the best swords use wrought iron for the bulk of the blade, which results in a softer and tougher "spine." Also, the traditional iron sand, only available now to the finest blade smiths, has a very fine dispersion of titanium dioxide (IIRC) particles which also help stop cracks from propagating through the hard, brittle edge. Finally, repeated folding of the blade material serves to break up slag and other impurities as well as refining the grains. All of this, figured out over centuries by trial and error, result in a darned impressive weapon. Ken Meltsner ------- Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2007 10:53:49 -0800 From: "Phil Koontz" Subject: Re: [OldTools] Super secrets of samurai swords... Hi Galoots-- I just wanted to thank Ken Meltsner for this gripping account of highly specialized differential heat treating. I really love this stuff. When I started on the hobby of iron working, heat treating seemed pretty simple, but the more I learn about it, the less I know. It is a deep, deep subject. PK Enjoyiing a beautiful snowy day, with ice running on the river. ------- Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2008 09:14:06 -0900 From: "Phil Koontz" Subject: Re: [OldTools] re: playin' with fire >Phil: >I am rehabbing a coal forge right now, but have not used is. Is it a good >substitute for the gas in a can models? Any special trick to hardening >and tempering on a coal forge that make it harder than with a torch? Joe Responding to Joe Sullivan's most pertinent digression about coal forges-- Good on ya, Joe. Coal both opens up a lot of possibilities and introduces some minor complications. You will find that there is a lot to learn about fire management with coal, and that it really helps to have a mentor. Fortunately, they are easily available. Look around for your local blacksmith's association--it's like finding a group of local galoots that like to play with fire, and they are everywhere. I took two sets of lessons from local associations, and would do it again in a minute. Regarding fire management, let me introduce a few principles-- Lighting the fire. Start with three full sheets of newspaper or the equivalent in wood shavings, kindling or such. Llight it and start cranking the air slowly. Sprinkle fresh coal or coke over the developing fire, shoving it around the edges and maintaining an airway up through the middle. Easier than it sounds. Coking. Like burning wood, you need to let the coal burn down so you have glowing coals and not so much flames and smoke. This isn't hard, but takes about ten minutes of slow firing to burn off the smoke. As you feed the fire, let the fresh coal crowd into the center from the edges, so you are using the coke for your fire as you develop more. Oxygen and heat. The oxygen comes up from the bottom. In an ideal fire, it is all consumed at a certain level, and the coals below that level will be much brighter. Your steel should be immediately above the oxygen limit--sort of touching the hot zone without being into the oxidizing flame. Add coke and throttle your air supply to keep the hot zone at the right level. Colors. Forging heat is a nice red, orange, or yellow. Don't use dull red. The fire should be adjusted to the right color, and the steel is ready when it takes on the same color as the fire. If you see sparks coming off the steel, it's too hot. The red fire color will give you about the right heat for annealing and quenching. Tempering heat is a bit more tricky, but you can get good control of the heat by using another piece of steel to moderate the temperatures. Look around for a heavy piece of flat strap or angle iron, put it in the fire and get it hot, then put your work to be tempered on that, either in the fire or out. Let the tempering colors develop slowly by conduction from the hot piece of surrogate steel. Dirt and mess. For some reason, it took me several years to get past the stage where coal would make me black and stinky all over. It isn't necessary, and experienced blacksmiths are able to keep a clean shop. Believe it or not. I don't, but... PK ------- Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2008 13:45:33 -0500 From: Anthony Seo Subject: Re: [OldTools] re: playin' with fire At 01:14 PM 1/9/2008, Phil Koontz wrote: >Dirt and mess. For some reason, it took me several years to get past >the stage where coal would make me black and stinky all over. It >isn't necessary, and experienced blacksmiths are able to keep a clean >shop. Believe it or not. I don't, but... The other problem is that the dust tends to settle on things. For many a year, your only heating option around these parts was coal and a lot of folks still burn it. My grandmother's house had a furnace and separate small coal fired water heater (around here they are called "Bucket A Day" stoves cause that is about what it took to keep them running). None of those furnaces were clean by any standard. The dust from the ash would get all over the basement and settle on everything. The dust by itself isn't too bad, but once it gets wet, it gets very acidic. I can't tell you how many tools I have seen that have gotten rust etched from coal ash dust and pretty much ruined. Just something to think about Tony http://www.oldetoolshop.com ------- Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2008 14:58:41 -0600 From: Scott Stager Subject: Re: [OldTools] Playin' with Fire Robert Hutchins wrote: >>> All this talk of spiffing up HF chisels raises all kinds of >>> questions in the (imperfect) vacuum between my ears. >>> Is this work on cheap chisels something that can be done with a >>> propane torch, some water or oil, and playing with mama's oven >>> whilst she's away? I'm thinking that it would be possible to buy >>> a line to attach to the gas grill's propane bottle with a torch >>> of some kind on t'other end. Or, is it something that can be >>> accomplished just as easily with a handheld propane bottle and >>> torch? >>> Does anyone know of a website that would take a neophyte step-by- >>> step through techniques that doesn't involve a forge and anvil >>> and all the other arcane arts of the metallurgist? >>> And what's this thing called a soup can furnace? My mind can't >>> even imagine how that would be cobbled up. >>> I don't want to become a blacksmith at my advanced age, but I'm >>> thinkin' it might be useful sometimes to know a little more about >>> treating metal. Will this put me on the precipice of another >>> slippery slope? Marcus Ward wrote: >> Another thing this leads to: my buddy and I were talking today and >> he wants captive ring tool for turning and we figured for 3$ we >> could get a 9" peice of tool steel and grind the proper shape, >> heat treat it, make a handle and voila, instant captive ring >> tool. You can go to mcmaster carr and get tool steel in just >> about any shape and size for whatever tool you'd like to make. >> It's rather addictive. :) M On Jan 8, 2008, at 6:11 PM, Marcus Ward wrote: > Oh just go here and hang on : > http://www.zoellerforge.com/simplegasforge.html > http://www.zoellerforge.com/coffee.html I've been holding off replying to this thread figuring someone would get around to the "forge in a fire brick" idea. The below is great if you need the size, but if you only want to treat a plane iron or chisel of less than 1" width, then the smallest and simplest is to get a fire brick (one of the light fragile ones), drill a hole lengthwise maybe 3/4 of the way in (6" maybe), another hole in from the flat narrow edge. Stick a propane torch (hand one on a bottle is OK) into the hole on the edge, and the tool down the long hole. It will heat up the tool right quick. There is undoubtedly a web site somewhere with details on this, but I don't know where it might be. I have seen one and a handout from a local smith who took a class on building woodworking tools at John C. Campbell folks school. Larry Williams has posted photos in the past showing something like this where the tool is just stuck in a corner made by a pile of fire bricks. As someone has already posted, anything that contains the heat a bit will probably be sufficient for small stuff. Scott ------- heat treating [sherline] Posted by: "mguysmith" mguysmithx~xxyahoo.com Date: Thu Jan 17, 2008 1:02 pm ((PST)) I was wondering if anyone had ever tried tempering steel parts in a toaster oven. I have an old one that I inherited from the kitchen recently. It still works well, except for the timer. According to the temp dial it goes up into the 450 degree range. From what I have read this seems like it might work well. Any comments or thoughts would be greatly appreciated. ------- Re: heat treating Posted by: "Greg Procter" procterx~xxihug.co.nz Date: Thu Jan 17, 2008 1:27 pm ((PST)) When I worked in a glass works the glass bottles were brought down from red-hot to air temperature in what was effectively a toastie-oven. Well it was a bit bigger and had a conveyer belt along it's 100 odd yard length, but it was basically ... I don't know what would happen to steel by holding it at 450 degrees for an extended period - perhaps soft steel? Greg.P. ------- Re: heat treating Posted by: "Alan Haisley" alanhyx~xxroadrunner.com Date: Thu Jan 17, 2008 1:49 pm ((PST)) This seems possible to me. You might need to add insulation to get it to hold the temp better though. Also, the thermostat in these is generally a simple bi-metal strip with contacts on one end. There may be significant lag in the way it reacts and you might need a better one. To check the thing, get a decent oven thermometer and see if you can get and maintain 400 degrees F. Then check inside in various places to see if the temp is consistent. Alan ------- Re: heat treating Posted by: "Flosi Gudmundsson" flosigudx~xxsimnet.is Date: Thu Jan 17, 2008 1:59 pm ((PST)) I've done all my tempering in an ordinary oven at 200°C, with good results. It would be nice to have an oven that went higher in temperature, say 800°C, to do hardening as well. It is my understanding that it is necessary to soak the part long enough for the heat to penetrate the part completely. ------- Re: heat treating Posted by: "DA Dossin" danatlx~xxyahoo.com Date: Thu Jan 17, 2008 2:50 pm ((PST)) Reminds me of one of my father's friend. He was awarded a Fed Govt contract to make coil springs. (In the mid 1960s.) It was a short term contract. Don't recall how long or for how much. This friend had a one room spring making shop in a building. His "oven" was just that. A gas oven in an old cook stove. So, to answer your question, that would depend upon, I would think, the alloy and thickness of the metal. And also the temp necessary and necessary quenching liquid. Got a thermostatically controlled gas oven in your kitchen? Not to sure if the toaster oven is enough. What the heck, try it. Not too sure how the quenching will effect the paint in the kitchen. This is only my best guess based on so little knowledge I could have been a Fed 'bean counter'. This friend was the only man I have ever known who used an ingot of silver for a door stop. Dan ------- Re: heat treating Posted by: "a3sigma" dcclark111x~xxcomcast.net Date: Thu Jan 17, 2008 4:18 pm ((PST)) A toaster oven comes in handy for a couple of things in the shop besides tempering: Oil finishing. Coat your steel parts with oil and bake for half an hour at 450F (230C). Any grade of motor oil will do. I discovered by accident that canola oil also works very well, highly heat resistant and doesn't smoke (non-toxic too, and doesn't stink up the place, so you can still use the oven for heating leftover pizza). Makes a nice blue/black rust resistant finish (on the parts, not the pizza). Works really well on 12L14. See Dave Hyland's web site for some nice machinist jacks treated this way. http://davehylands.com/Machinist/Projects/ The oven is also useful for melting cerro metal alloys or machinable wax when casting fixtures. (About which I hope to post more soon.) To make the temperature more stable and uniform during tempering, toss in a couple of fire bricks. And, those couple of fire bricks are good to have on hand to place parts while flame heat treating, soldering, and brazing. DC ------- Re: heat treating Posted by: "Daniel Kaschner" dkaschnerx~xxcomcast.net Date: Thu Jan 17, 2008 4:23 pm ((PST)) Do it all the time when tempering knifes and other blades I have forged. The one thing I would recommend is to get two cooking/oven thermometers and place them on the rack in the toaster oven. Ovens (big ones and toaster) are notoriously inaccurate when it comes to temperature settings. Our kitchen oven is off by 25 degrees. Trust the independent thermometers when setting the temperature. ------- Re: heat treating Posted by: "DA Dossin" danatlx~xxyahoo.com Date: Thu Jan 17, 2008 4:39 pm ((PST)) Hmmm, IF you know it is 25F off, then, it is not off. The reading is incorrect and we make allowances for it. How about one of those distant reading BBQ themometer. Drill a hole in the side, poke the thermocouple in, close the hole with some fire brick cement. ------- Re: heat treating Posted by: "Dave Hylands" dhylandsx~xxgmail.com Date: Thu Jan 17, 2008 4:40 pm ((PST)) Hi, I've tempered steel using my gas barbeque, which was around 500 degrees. The brown color in this shot is from the tempering: The oil finish was a red herring, and the color is purely the temper color of the steel at the temperature I was running the barbeque at. I later quenched them in used motor oil and got a nice black finish. Dave Hylands Vancouver, BC, Canada http://www.DaveHylands.com/ ------- Re: heat treating Posted by: "a3sigma" dcclark111x~xxcomcast.net Date: Thu Jan 17, 2008 5:04 pm ((PST)) Hi Dave: The oil blackening technique is described in "The Home Shop Machinist Handbook" page 209. I'd assumed you did it on purpose. Many steels can also be "heat blued" at around 600F (315C). Ibid. DC ------- Re: heat treating Posted by: "Corndodger" corndodger2x~xxhotmail.com Date: Thu Jan 17, 2008 8:27 pm ((PST)) Hi Alan, I have a burnout oven and it uses ordinary nichrome wire wrapped around the inside of a box lined with firebrick. It has two heater coils, one for each side. The elements are set for length to draw 800 watts each. The only trick here is to make the firebrick box fit inside a cast steel one, with an insulated door. My oven will reach 2100 degrees F, but that's tough on the heater wire at that temp. It can easily melt copper and aluminum into molten slag. Jim ------- Re: heat treating Posted by: "Richard L. Wurdack" dickwx~xxnwlink.com Date: Fri Jan 18, 2008 5:25 am ((PST)) If you are interested in farbling up your own electric oven, I've had good luck with http://www.budgetcastingsupply.com/. (usual disclaimers) Dick ------- NOTE TO FILE: There is an interesting conversation about special techniques to harden miniature home-made threading taps in the "Threading (Lathe and Otherwise)" file with message heading "Re: Miniature Taps" starting Apr 25, 2008. Good tips applicable to watch/clock parts and other miniature items needing hardening. ------- Re: Metal Stock [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: "n8as1x~xxaol.com" Date: Sun Jun 22, 2008 4:07 pm ((PDT)) 6/22/2008, viajoaquinx~xxaol.com writes: > ! Best to stay away from oil. It " aint necessarily so " O1 is way more forgiving than W1 w/ regards to WARPAGE, cracking, toughness, size maintenance, etc. a litle more expensive, but air hardening is double O1, & lots of luck annealing it in home shop ...for what works well, use W1 ..remembering the advantages of the alloyed steel O1 ...noticeable difference making up chambering, & 1/2 reamers. FWIW ..what problem is there to store a QT can of ATF unless u have no garage, no outside storage, nor basement ...it is flammable, but not explosive ... so are lots of there stuff in a basement ....( better to quench than reg oil )....& a salt brine quench mitigates cracking, warpage if using W1. FWIW ....quench vertically ...best in home shop to run in a drill press x~xx 200 or so when heating & then bring the quench can up to the part while spinning ...( then blow the flame out !) fwiw ...kitchen oven is easiest tempering medium .....just set the thermo, & figure an hour/inch, shut it down & let it cool. best wishes docn8as ------- Re: Metal Stock Posted by: "NuritheTurkx~xxaol.com" Date: Mon Jun 23, 2008 6:00 am ((PDT)) BakoRoy said: "On the other hand, oil must be stored, is of no other use once used as a quench and makes a hell of a lot of smoke and stink when a red hot piece of steel is dunked into it! Best to stay away from oil." Bob Lovelace, the knife maker, recommended using olive oil for quenching. I bought a gallon can and used it to quench knife blades for ages. It makes less smoke and the smoke smells like oatmeal cookies. It helps keep the other half happy and might trigger a cookie baking episode! Turk ------- Re: Metal Stock Posted by: "jmartin957x~xxaol.com" Date: Mon Jun 23, 2008 6:02 am ((PDT)) For square cold rolled steel bars - or indeed any steel that I'll be doing a lot of machining on - I prefer 12L14 or one of the other leaded screw stocks. The best prices by far are usually at a local steel supplier. Full lengths of the leaded steels are often 10-12' rather than 20' - ask. They may deliver to you, and they'll certainly deliver to a nearby regular customer machine shop or welding shop. While the 12L14 doesn't weld well and is more rust-prone than many other steels, it does cut very nicely. You should have no trouble getting it in any round or hex sizes, and usually no trouble in squares. For short lengths of the smaller squares - and if you don't care about machineability - many of the big box stores now have it among their stocks of rounds, flats and angle iron. For very short pieces and instant gratification, any good hardware store should have it in 1' lengths as key stock. For drill rod, I'd stick with oil hardening. It's a little more expensive than water hardening, but warps less in the hardening process. Air hardening is much more expensive, and it's more difficult to harden. For most applications where I would want a piece of air hardening, I can usually find a broken or worn center drill or tap already hardened. I try to keep at least sizes by sixteenths up to 1/2", plus 5/8" and 3/4". Do some reading on the properties of steel. You may be surprised to find that, for many applications, the common low carbon steels will perform just as well as the more expensive high carbon and alloy steels. John Martin ------- Hardening, tempering, annealing and other evils [Metal_Shapers] Posted by: "Jim Ash" ashcanx~xxearthlink.net Date: Wed Aug 27, 2008 6:08 am ((PDT)) Gents - As much as I enjoy metal working and learning about metal working, hardening, annealing and tempering are still a mystery to me. Most of the processes to create these conditions seem to involve the application and removal of heat under specific conditions, but which conditions create what circumstances are beyond me. Assuming we're talking steel, carbon content and molecular structure have something to do with it but I don't know what. I suspect there's a lot more to these things than is practical to cover on this forum. Is there some recommended reading from the group I can to that might fill in the blanks, or should I just blast away with the questions? I can handle some of the engineering if it gets to that level; my formal education is electron flow and software, not metallurgy, but I'm catching up on that one. Some points to ponder: 1. I've got a can of Kasenit but I've shyed away from it because I don't know how to use it or what it does (or how to dispose of any residual mess). 2. I gather case hardening is just a surface treatment? 3. What decides whether a material is best hardened by oil, water, air, or ???? 4. Can I harden mild steel (and if not, why not)? How do I know if a certain type of material can be hardened, and how? Obviously the same techniques that apply to steel don't apply to aluminum, but I gather that's what anodizing is for. 5. Wuddaheck is 'cherry red'? It seems to be a standard explanation for a certain temperature. I've done a bunch of welding and heated assorted metals all the way to melting, but calling it 'cherry red' is lost on me. The cherries I eat don't glow like that and I wouldn't eat them if they did. Has somebody got a different (hopefully more useful to me) definition? 6. Why the re-heating process after hardening? Is this tempering? I guess I don't understand specifically what tempering really is (vs hardening). Annealing I understand. 7. Are blueing and blackening surface hardening processes also, or are they something different? 8. Is there an easy way to measure hardness without spending gobs of money on a hardness tester? I guess I'm not so much interested in scientific accuracy (at least not yet) as I am figuring out if the process I just played with on a whack of metal had the desired effect on it, and maybe how much. I'm sure there's more... Jim Ash ------- Re: Hardening, tempering, annealing and other evils Posted by: "Larry Fahnoe" fahnoex~xxFahnoeTech.com Date: Wed Aug 27, 2008 6:50 am ((PDT)) Jim: You pose some good questions, many of which are answered in the book "Heat Treatment, Selection, and Application of Tool Steels" by William Bryson. http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/156990376X Larry ------- Re: Hardening, tempering, annealing and other evils Posted by: "Alan R. Lapp" alanlappx~xxlevelfive.com Date: Wed Aug 27, 2008 8:02 am ((PDT)) No expert by any means, but I do have some modest experience with knife-making, and that enterprise is *very* concerned with hardening. In fact, many knife-making sites have FAQs or tutorials on hardening. Anyway, I've answered what I can, and BTW, good list. > 2. I gather case hardening is just a surface treatment? Yes. The time spent at the "critical temperature" in the case-hardening mixture determines the depth of the case. I've never used Kasenit, but I believe it's primarily a treatment to get carbon to migrate into the steel. It's specifically for use on low-carbon steel, and I suspect that it would either be wasted or produce undesirable results on "tool" (i.e. high carbon) steels. > 3. What decides whether a material is best hardened by oil, water, > air, or ???? It's the alloy (I can't really speak to the metallurgy) - O1 is oil hardening, W1 is water hardening, A2 is air hardening. FWIW, the wear properties and behavior during hardening differ among each: O1 is known to be hard to machine, especially threads. W1 is known to warp during heat treatment. A2 is known to be difficult to machine, and a real drag to anneal if you need to go back and correct a mistake, but is more wear resistant than the others. > 4. Can I harden mild steel (and if not, why not)? How do I know if > a certain type of material can be hardened, and how? Yes and no. Low-carbon, a.k.a. mild steel, can't be hardened by heating & cooling. You asked about case hardening, which is a method to ADD carbon, creating a high-carbon "case" on a low-carbon part. As mentioned, it's mostly the carbon content that determines if the hardness can be modified. Other alloying elements also have an effect on this --- the alloy is the difference between drill rod/tool steel (same alloy, different shapes) HSS, Cobalt, etc. Coatings on cutters, such as Ti, TiN, TiAN, are just that, coatings, not alloys. If you have a hunka "mystery metal", you can perform The Spark Test, which is an observation about the size, color, and shape of the resulting sparks when the metal is held against a grinding wheel. http://shopswarf.orconhosting.net.nz/spark.html > Obviously the same techniques that apply to steel don't apply to > aluminum, but I gather that's what anodizing is for. Yes and no. Aluminum *can* be hardened, but not the same methodology as steel. For example, if you order a piece of 6061, it will normally be listed as "6061 T6". The T6 is the temper designation. Aluminum can be hardened through a heat/cool process, AND through a mechanical process called "work hardening" -- this is a big deal if you're "forming" aluminum through bending or hammering. http://www.matweb.com/reference/aluminumtemper.aspx Anodizing comes in 2 'flavors' - cosmetic (the colored ones) and hard. Hard anodizing only comes in dark gray. It's also not technically a hardening process, but rather a conversion process -- the top layer of the parent material is converted to an oxide, which if you've read your sandpaper packets, is aluminum oxide, and quite hard. Other materials are hardenable as well, such as stainless steels; some alloys work-harden quite quickly. In fact, if you're pussy-footing around trying to drill a hole in stainless, you'll work-harden the material directly in front of the drill! So, lots of coolant and lean on it while cutting stainless. > 5. Wuddaheck is 'cherry red'? It seems to be a standard explanation > for a certain temperature. I've done a bunch of welding and heated > assorted metals all the way to melting, but calling it 'cherry red' > is lost on me. The cherries I eat don't glow like that and I > wouldn't eat them if they did. Has somebody got a different > (hopefully more useful to me) definition. To directly answer your question, "cherry red" is a couple of steps above where the steel begins to be incandescent, i.e. throwing off light due to heat. It correlates to about 1350 degrees. There is standard terminology for the correlation between color and temperature. Ideally, you'd measure the piece of steel to be heat treated with a non-contact I.R. thermometer, but ones that read up to 1800 degrees are expensive. The cheap ones only read up to 800~900 degrees. http://www.muggyweld.com/color.html There is also a product called "Tempilstik", which is a "crayon" that has a specific melting point. They're not expensive at all, about $10 each. If you have 3 crayons -- under, just right, and over -- you can attain quite decent temperature control. http://www.tempil.com/product.asp Generally speaking, for hardening of steel, the thing you're looking for is magnetism. Steel has an interesting property: when it is at the "critical temperature", it becomes non-magnetic because things are re-arranging themselves on a molecular level. All steels will need to be raised above the critical temperature to harden. Here's where it gets interesting: each alloy may have a different critical temperature, and a different amount of time spent at or above the critical temperature to result in proper hardening. Notice the phrase "at or above" -- some steels need to be held *at* the critical temperature +/- 25 degrees for a time based on the thickness of the part. This explains usefulness of heat treating ovens, the better ones have other control features, such as cooling over time. Generally, the higher the performance (hardness, toughness) of the steel, the more sensitive it is to proper technique for heat treatment. > 6. Why the re-heating process after hardening? Is this tempering? I > guess I don't understand specifically what tempering really is (vs > hardening). Annealing I understand. Tempering and annealing are related. The thing to understand about most full-hard steels is that they are "glass hard" meaning that they are too hard to be useful, i.e. they will be terribly brittle and fragile. Tempering is reducing the hardness in a controlled manner so the balance of hard and tough suits the needs of the tool. A harder piece of steel will, in the case of a cutting tool, can have a sharper edge. So, a razor blade is extremely hard and extremely sharp, but fragile. A camp hatchet is NOT hard, and not terribly sharp, but is extremely tough and will take a beating. The scalpel is barely tempered, whereas the hatchet is tempered a lot. > 7. Are blueing and blackening surface hardening processes also, or > are they something different? Bluing and blackening are chemically different. They aren't for hardening, more for rust prevention and cosmetics. Beyond that, I don't know much about it. > 8. Is there an easy way to measure hardness without spending gobs > of money on a hardness tester? I guess I'm not so much interested > in scientific accuracy (at least not yet) as I am figuring out if > the process I just played with on a whack of metal had the desired > effect on it, and maybe how much. Spark test, and there are hardness testing file sets -- I'm not exactly sure how they work, and if they're actually a consumable. In general, you can judge the hardness of a piece of steel by how an ordinary file "bites" on it. A truly hard piece of steel will cause the file to just skate over it, and don't press too hard as you'll break the teeth off the file. > I'm sure there's more.. Oh, yes. There are whole books on the topic. We haven't even touched upon quenching or the changes that occur at a molecular level. a ------- Re: Hardening, tempering, annealing and other evils Posted by: "jmartin957x~xxaol.com" Date: Wed Aug 27, 2008 9:07 am ((PDT)) Lots of questions - you probably need a good book on heat treating steel. Kasenit allows you to case harden mild steels. Heat the steel, sprinkle the Kasenit on, hold the steel at temperature for a while. The longer you hold it, and the more times you repeat, the deeper the case will be. All it does is add carbon to the outer layer, though - you still have to quench to harden. As you probably don't have a heat treating furnace, you won't be able to hold the heat for Kasenit's recommended times, but even a minute or so will give you a thin case. I use it with an Oxy- acetylene torch. I don't believe there is any cyanide in it, so the water you quench in may be discarded without any serious precautions. Case hardening is indeed just a surface treatment. It allows you to use low-carbon steel but get a hard surface. The soft core won't crack or distort in hardening, and remains malleable. The alloy determines the hardening method. Water hardening steels require the greatest cooling shock to harden, air hardening the least. That said, you can usually get water hardening steels to harden in oil if the parts are small. The greater the shock, the more likely the part is to crack or distort. You can't harden mild steel, as it needs carbon to harden. You can add it by using Kasenit, a cyanide bath, packing in charcoal and heating and some other methods, but they are just surface treatments. A spark test will tell you the type of steel, especially if you have some known samples to compare to. Hardware store steel rod is often 1018 steel, which has .18% carbon. Not enough to harden to any real extent. Up around .45% you get decent hardening. High carbon steel is up around .95% - anything higher is pretty much wasted. Aluminum is very different, and is a subject in itself. Carbon is not necessary. Anodizing is a surface treatment only. The hardening processes aren't fast, as steel is, and may require days at room temperature after heating for the full hardness to be developed. Everyone sees cherry red differently, and it looks different in daylight than in the dark. You are trying to heat the steel to its transition temperature, which you can also gauge with a magnet. When the steel loses its magnetism, it's hot enough. Remember the color. You usually have to temper after hardening, as the steel will be too brittle for most uses. Tempering is a partial annealing, which softens and toughens the steel. With case hardening, it's usually not necessary - the soft low carbon core provides the toughness. Blueing and blackening are not hardening processes. Some hardening techniques may result in surface colors, however. A file will give you an idea of how hard a steel piece is. As with spark testing, it helps to have some known samples. John Martin ------- Re: Hardening, tempering, annealing and other evils Posted by: "erg576" graham_ex~xxsbcglobal.net Date: Wed Aug 27, 2008 11:41 am ((PDT)) Temperature crayons or tempils, melt at specific temperatures if you are still uneasy with the magnet/eyeball test. Enco, MSC, etc sell them. Kasenit is not hard to use (I'm a garage hack to qualify). I make a M52x2.0 threading die out of mild steel to restore exhaust spigot threads on a BMW motorcycle head out of mild steel and used it to firm up the teeth. A rosebud torch is a handy thing to have for such events. The threading die came out well enough to do the job. Being able to case harden metal for little projects is as much of an evolution as going from a drill press/dremel to a milling machine for the home shop enthusiast. ------- Re: Hardening, tempering, annealing and other evils Posted by: "Gary Bauer" garybauer46x~xxyahoo.com Date: Wed Aug 27, 2008 1:24 pm ((PDT)) Jim: The fellows have pretty well covered the intro basics without going into "Metalurgy 301" level chemistry. I just wanted to explain why tempering is used in the heat treat process when it seems a bit redundant. Simply put... carbon steels and carbon alloy steels that can be hardened are extremely difficult to hit the desired hardness in one shot though there are some modern alloys that can do this (automotive leaf springs these days). It is easier and simpler to back into the proper level of hardness from the max or fully quenched condition. Removing hardness via reheating is called tempering. For most simple carbon steels such as SAE 1095 this tempering can be done in a toaster or muffin oven at about 900° F. The numbering such as SAE 1095 means plain steel with 95 "points" of carbon content or .95% carbon. This type steel was popular for decades in car and truck leaf springs. It made neat knives etc. It is not to be confused with W-1 carbon tool steels which have extra stuff such as tungsten added. Removing most all of the hardness from metals is commonly called annealing. Removing all the hardness from high alloy carbon tool steels is called spherodising. The last item is a longer more complex process. Tool steels are most often high alloy steels with 30 to 50 points of carbon. Loosely called O-1 steel they harden nicely with less carbon content than the above-mentioned W-1 or 1095 types. Another name applied to certain complex alloys is "high speed steel". This type was introduced just before WW-1. They retain great hardness even when used at high speed (ie hot) in manufacturing. [This paragraph was edited slightly for clarity.] Aluminum and metals around it on the atomic chart are totally different in respect to hardening and softening, age hardening, and normalising. Don't confuse these with iron metals. Since you have likely studied university-level chemistry and physics you should have little difficulty getting a handle on metalurgy. Have fun !! Later, Gary ------- Re: Hardening, tempering, annealing and other evils Posted by: "jmartin957x~xxaol.com" Date: Wed Aug 27, 2008 4:55 pm ((PDT)) The tempering temperature for 1095 will depend on the ultimate use and hardness desired. AISI W1 is a plain carbon steel - there is little in it other than iron and carbon. Neither O1 nor W1 are high speed steels. John Martin ------- Re: Hardening, tempering, annealing and other evils Posted by: "Clive Foster" clive_fosterx~xxtalk21.com Date: Thu Aug 28, 2008 2:34 am ((PDT)) Jim: I suggest you get hold of a copy of Hardening, Tempering and Annealing by "Tubal Cain" from the UK published Workshop Practice series. Like all the books in this series its biased toward the home worker with appropriately simplified explanations and methods. Industrial practice and college textbooks tend to rapidly disappear in the over complex, too expensive and too big directions. The author was a professionally qualified engineer and latterly a lecturer at a UK University as well as being an experienced and prolific Model Engineer with a very practical feel for the limitations in capability inherent to small, home, workshops. Clive ------- Re: Hardening, tempering, annealing and other evils Posted by: "rgsparberx~xxaol.com" Date: Thu Aug 28, 2008 7:23 am ((PDT)) Clive: Thanks for the recommendation. I just placed my order ($15.40 total from Alibris). Cain's books are first rate and I own a few of them. His book on drafting has helped me improve my CAD skills. It doesn't matter that he used pencil since the logic is identical. Rick Sparber web site: http://rick.sparber.org ------- Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2008 13:43:57 -0500 From: Mike Graham Subject: Re: [OldTools] O1 Steel... what am I buying? Frank Filippone wrote: > I am interested in purchasing a bit of O1 Steel to make some blades for various Plane "things". (Smaller width cutter and blades for my 45 and 043.) If I go to McMaster Carr and purchase O1 steel..... and all I want to do is to cut to length and put an edge on it..... < Those two requirements are contradictory. At least, they are if you're planning on using a hacksaw or similar to cut it. If the material was hard enough to hold an edge then you wouldn't be able to cut it. > Am I missing something? So I need to heat it or anneal it or > do something else with it to make it useful? When you buy O1 bar stock it comes in a normalized condition. Soft. If you want it hard then you'll have to harden it. Maybe you can buy it hard, but I've never seen it. I've only seen it sold as 'soft and ready to machine.' M.Mike ------- Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2008 09:38:55 -0900 From: "Phil Koontz" Subject: Re: [OldTools] O1 Steel... what am I buying? > If I go to McMaster Carr and purchase O1 steel..... and all I want > to do is to cut to length and put an edge on it..... Hi Frank -- I'm sure that there will be a flood of responses here, but you sucked me in anyway. O1 is my personal favorite, and the stuff that MSC sells is already annealed. Work it as you please, then look up Rev Ron Hock's seminal document on do-it-yourself heat treating and have at. Here's the URL: http://www.hocktools.com/diyht.htm It's another galoot initiation ritual, BTW. We are all daring you to do it. Double dare, in fact. PK ------- Shrink Fits [MyMyford] Posted by: "dnaman43" mevagissyx~xxgmail.com Date: Tue Mar 17, 2009 8:17 am ((PDT)) I want to shrink-fit a steel sleeve on a cast iron boss of about 1" dia. I had tacitly assumed that I could use the kitchen oven for heating but on digging around I found a short paragraph on shrink fits in Sparey's book "The Amateur's Lathe". In this he states that room-temperature interference of about .oo1"/inch of dia is appropriate. But he further states that when heating one part "red heat is indicated" which I found a little startling. So I juggled some numbers and according to my calculations, 400 deg F. in the oven should lead to about .0024" expansion of the (approx 1") sleeve bore which seems basically do-able. Has anyone actually done this successfully (used a kitchen oven as the heater for a shrink fit)? ------- Re: Shrink Fits Posted by: "DAVID WILSON" d.j.wilsonx~xxmac.com Date: Tue Mar 17, 2009 8:42 am ((PDT)) You could chill the other part as well. In the freezer if you have not got access to liquid nitrogen. Could use the freezer spray use by plumbers to freeze pipes. Dave ------- Re: Shrink Fits Posted by: "durnfjmx~xxaol.com" durnfjmx~xxaol.com Date: Tue Mar 17, 2009 9:01 am ((PDT)) Does it *need* to be a shrink fit? Loctite 603 or equivalent works really well on a sliding fit, as long as you don't overheat the joint (about 120 deg C max), and it's certainly *much* easier to do. MikeD ------- Re: Shrink Fits Posted by: "dnaman43" mevagissyx~xxgmail.com Date: Tue Mar 17, 2009 9:27 am ((PDT)) I don't have access to liquid nitrogen and I'm not sure I'd want to play with it anyway. I had considered using the frezer on the other part but it seemed to me that it only bought me another 40 - 50 deg F and made the "logistics" of actually assembling the two pieces worse. This is all in my head at this stage, but I imagined I'd set up the boss part on the arbor press and get the press handle supported in the right postion and do a practice run or two (without actually pressing the sleeve on). Then heat up the sleeve in the oven - perhaps attached to a large mass of metal as heatsink - then carry the whole lot to the basement in an improvised insulating container. the quickly place it in position using tongs and press it home. Sounds good in my head :-). I think using the freezer on the other part and trying to juggle the two pieces might lose me more than I gain. The freezer spray idea might work though because I could still do the preparatory setup and just give it a quick spray before I assemble. ------- Re: Shrink Fits Posted by: "tomservo_9504" tomservo_9504x~xxyahoo.com Date: Wed Mar 18, 2009 4:11 pm ((PDT)) I second the notion of using RC loctite - the stuff is incredibly strong. I've even had good success using red loctite (thread type) for locking sleeves and sheaves on shafts. I've even used it for power transmission applications, up to 2HP on a 3/4" shaft with only about 3/4" contact area. If you're using thread type loctite, heat the part up to set the loctite. About 200F is suitable. If you can't or don't want to trust the loctite, then I'd suggest a straight press fit. A hot/cold slip fit is nice, but more suited to having the right jigs set up. You only get one chance for it to be right - if you aren't fast enough, it'll lock on halfway into position and never come off. Here's a tip: instead of the oven, use a heat gun to heat the sleeve. Most heat guns will push out 600F+ heat. Don't expect a heatgun to output what it says on the box. ------- Re: Shrink Fits Posted by: "Susie Frith" susie.frithx~xxhotmail.co.uk Date: Wed Mar 18, 2009 8:14 pm ((PDT)) Hi. My fisrt bit of screwcutting many years ago was to make a new exhaust stub in bronze for my 1967 BMW motorcycle. This needed to be a shrink fit in the alloy cylinder head. I just heated the head in the domestic gas oven at a fairly low temp for about half an hour, then fished it out, held it in a workmate and dropped the stub in. You have to be quick before it cools, and hold it down in place for a few seconds. If you don't the piece drops in place, then bounces up slightly when it bottoms out and then gets gripped by the cooling head, but in the wrong place! The standard thou per inch diameter works fine. I would agree though with some of the other replies - these days if you can, then use locktight! Obviously because of the heat involved in an engine I could not, but shrinking stuff in in a home workshop is a bit of a faf. Susie ------- Re: Cooling Steel with oil [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: "Russ Kepler" russx~xxkepler-eng.com Date: Wed Apr 22, 2009 9:53 am ((PDT)) On Wednesday 22 April 2009 machiii2000 wrote: > This is probably not the place to ask this but I thought I might get some good information here, I don't know the hardness, it is just some 1 1/4" round stock given to me, but if I heat it, not cherry but fairly hot, then dip it in and out of used motor oil, other than making it black does it change the properties of it? I was told it might harden the outer layer. < Several points: 1) You can't put carbon into a steel by "dipping it" in oil. Getting carbon to diffuse into the steel takes high temperatures (approaching the critical point) and close association with the carbon at that temperature. 2) Attempting to harden an unknown steel is a frustrating process. 3) Trying to harden a steel below the steel's critical temperature will only anneal the steel at best. IOW it will 'soften' the steel. If you're trying to add a carbon layer to the outside of the steel you'll want to use Kasenite or to go to a full pack hardening (surrounding the part with carbon containing compounds in an airtight container and heating the whole mess to something close to critical). Kasenite is a sodium/ potassium ferrocyanide mix with other stuff to make the carbon free to move, you heat the part to critical and dip it in the Kasenite. Some cycles of heating and dipping and some carbon will migrate into the part, maybe as much as .015". At that point you'll want to normalize and then harden/temper the part. But the above won't work, or will work poorly, with some steel alloys. Other alloys already have enough carbon to harden decently. It's always seemed to me that if it's work putting your time into the part it's worth using the right steel. The only exception I see to this is that you've got a source of a lot of steel for real cheap, and at that point it's likely a good idea to try and characterize the steel so you know what it's good for (this is done in knife making, where you might have a very large saw blade, good for making a couple hundred blades, but you need to know the alloy to have a good heat treat). In that case you might try and find a local scrap year with a XRF analyzer to check out the alloy. But heating steel and dipping it in motor oil will give a fair blacking. That's all. ------- Re: Cooling Steel with oil Posted by: "Ron Gerlach" r7734gx~xxhotmail.com Date: Wed Apr 22, 2009 10:00 am ((PDT)) David: Your mystery metal could be anything, in which case being able to harden it by quenching is a total crap shoot. Does it have a ground finish on it? If it does it probably has a higher probability of being a material that will harden but nothing is certain. I would try a sample and do like the previous gent suggested; get it hot enough that it is no longer magnetic and then quench it in either oil or water. If it is tool steel it will be too hard to file. If it is still not hard then it is probably just cold rolled steel. Your only option is to surface or case harden it which depends on having the surface being exposed to a high carbon content material while still at an elevated temperature like red hot. There are good products like Kasenite that are used for this purpose. A can is not too expensive and it is good to have some around. I believe a Kasenite case harden depth can be .020 to .030 into the surface if done correctly. Maybe even more than this if the cycle is repeated or the part is allowed to soak in the material at temperature for ten or fifteen minutes. A simple quench into old engine oil might possibly create a little surface hardening but it would be so thin as to be essentially useless. The metal surface needs to be red hot for a period of time to allow the carbon migration into the surface of the metal. Ron ------- Re: Cooling Steel with oil Posted by: "pflatlyne" pflatlynex~xxyahoo.com Date: Wed Apr 22, 2009 9:27 pm ((PDT)) There are other ways to tell roughly what kind of steel you have. For instance, you can grind it on a bench grinder and see what kind of sparks it makes. This was discussed here a few months ago. I've been known to heat a cheap metal tool to cherry red and quench it in oil and see of it helps. Sometimes it does not, sometimes it does. An example is the cheap ($3 on sale) HF t-handle hex wrench set. They are so soft that they just round off after a few uses. After heat treating it they work pretty good (be careful not to melt the plastic handle). Also on the smaller ones, the rest is still soft so you can end up actually twisting the rest into a spiral on a stuck set screw. I would not recommend anyone buy the cheap hex wrench set, but if you got one and didn't realize how bad it was until it was past the return date, then heat treating helps. (And when it does go bad, grind off the end =) ) On other tools however, it seems to do nothing. I guess it all depends on the kind of steel. My feeling is,if you want to know whether it can be hardened like that, try it and see. ------- Re: Cooling Steel with oil Posted by: "cuttysark71" cuttysark71x~xxyahoo.com Date: Fri Apr 24, 2009 9:12 am ((PDT)) Dave: There have been some good replies to your question about case hardening. Another old technique it to heat the steel to cherry red with an oxy-acetylene torch, and when it's hot turn the oxygen flow off and flood the part with the sooty, yellow acetylene-only flame. Go back to a neutral to slightly reducing flame (don't overdue it on the oxygen and go to an oxidizing flame condition) and hold the part at red heat for a couple of minutes. Continue between the sooty flame and the neutral/ reducing hot flame several times, and then oil quench the part. It works OK if you can live with a shallow hard case. You're not going to get a real thick case hardening effect with this technique. Jeff ------- Re: Cooling Steel with oil Posted by: "catboat15x~xxaol.com" Date: Fri Apr 24, 2009 10:20 pm ((PDT)) To make any change in the properties of steel by quenching in water, oil or air it first must be at or above the "critical temperature" where the properties of the steel can be changed. The usual home shop method is to heat to a bright red and a magnet will not be attracted to the steel. A commercial shop will have a thermometer to measure the actual temperature. Then you quench the steel (rapid cooling in water, brine or oil) which "freezes" the steel in the condition it was while red hot. For most uses then you "let down" the hardness to where you want it. (A spring may be left fully hard, but a chisel, lathe tool etc will be "let down" to a lower hardness. You trade hardness for toughness in those cases. But, if there is no carbon in there to begin with you can not harden the steel unless you add some carbon with charcoal or some commercial material that contains carbon. Then you have only a thin surface coating of hard steel over a body of softer steel. A useful situation for something like a link that must be hard on the ends to wear well, but tough in the middle to prevent bending or breaking. All this is for plain steel, but the stuff you might pick up as a bargain may be some exotic alloy that contains a lot of other materials, maybe lead to make it machine easier or some other metal that adds some properties that were wanted when the steel was made. The average steel you buy at the local home center can be almost anything. Probably if it is shiny it is cold rolled steel with no carbon and will not harden; and also if it is cold rolled, it contains a lot of built-in stress which will cause the steel to warp and twist if you cut the surface off. If it is black steel probably hot rolled and it won't warp when machined (You hope). If the maker lets the carbon too high he has "cast iron" which is tough and wear resistant. (Lathe beds anybody?) But brittle compared to steel. A good source for high quality hardenable steel is old files or you can purchase "Drill rod" that can be hardened by heating and quenching and is good material for making your own taps, "D" bits etc and harden the working areas and leave the shanks soft so not brittle. Hardenble flats are usually listed under "Gauge plate" and can be used for making links etc in machines with the working ends hardened and the middle part left tough. If you need small diameter hard steel (up to about 1/4 inch) a good source is a local hobby shop where they stock three foot lengths of "Piano Wire" a high carbon hardened steel used for landing gear on model airplanes. The temper is not so hard as to leave it too brittle, but hard enough to wind up small springs for your projects. If you go to heat treat your own metals a good investment are the special crayons that will change color when the steel reaches a certain temperature. Or a remote infra-red thermometer to gauge temperatures. The colors look a lot different inside the shop than they do out in the daylight. Now that is a lot more than I know about the subject so use the advice at your own peril. ------- Re: Kasenit case harding [SherlineCNC] Posted by: "William Thomas" wthomasx~xxgfn.org Date: Tue Nov 10, 2009 9:24 pm ((PST)) On Tue, 10 Nov 2009, Tony Zampini wrote > Ah yes, case hardening. I tried it once using Kasenit. But there were no > directions on the can, so I never was able to get it to work. Any help > here would be appreciated. Tony Hi Tony and all: It is easy when you know how!! Ha Ha. I have a 3/8" lathe tool holder with a curved shank that I learned on. There are two ways of doing it. The method I used was to heat the part up to a cherry red and dump it into the Kasenit and be sure it is covered good with a thick layer all around the area you want hard. If you want to keep something soft such as threads you can pack them with a high heat resistance material or plate them with copper to keep the carbon from soaking in. (You can do this with copper sulfate, the stuff they kill tree roots with.) If you want a deeper case do it a couple times or more. I did not have a furnace to heat my tool holder in so I just set it between two fire bricks. I heated it for 15 to 25 minutes. I got it a little too hot and it started to sag before I dropped it in the Kasenit. I still use it 47 years later and the clamping surface is still good. The second method is to build a box and lid of sheet metal about an inch bigger in all three ways then the part. Then, put a 1/2" of kasenit in the bottom of the box before putting the part to be hardened in the box. Then fill the box full right to the top and cap with the lid. Place the box in a furnace and bring the temp. up to around 1600 deg. F and let it soak for a half hour or more. If the part is a thick part you will need to let it soak at 1600 deg for one hour for each half inch of cross section. EG. if the part is two inches thick you will need to let it soak for four hours to get the part up to 1600 deg. If you need a light case on something that you want to avoid deforming, use a nitrate case as it used the least heat. It may be a more expensive process but it causes the least distortion. It also works better with some types of steels than others. I hope this helps you put that can of Kasenit to good use. GOD'S BLESSINGS Bill ------- Re: Kasenit(was Cam Shaft Grinding) Posted by: "Rich Dean" toolman8x~xxcopper.net Date: Tue Nov 10, 2009 9:43 pm ((PST)) Tony, Kasenit is a highly carbonatious material. By coating low carbon hot steel with it and then reheating to allow the carbon to soak into the surface, you make the steel hardenable but will have a soft core. A useful feature BTW. Once the steel has soaked up the carbon at a temperature above the curie point, non magnetic and bright red heat, the steel is then quenched in water or oil to drop the temperature quickly thus freezing the crystalline structure into a very hard state. For some uses this hardness is left as is, but is liable to fracture because of the very high internal stresses. Normally the steel is then "tempered" to bring the stresses down to a lower state by reheating to specific temperatures or "colors" and requenched to stop the hardness at a specific point. The required temper needed depends on the specific use for the metal. In the home shop this procedure is easily accomplished on small parts that can be heated with a propane torch and a small brick hearth and some Fiberfrax or Kaowool formed into a basic muffle to achieve red heat. After the Kasenit soak, clean the part to bare metal and carefully reheat until you see colors appear. The usual color for a cutting tool is a light straw color. For a tough and wear resistant surface and dark brown or blue color will do. Heating beyond blue will leave the steel nearly annealed, soft. Don't forget to quench to stop the tempering. RichD ------- Re: Kasenit(was Cam Shaft Grinding) Posted by: "chieftoolmaker" chieftoolmakerx~xxearthlink.net Date: Wed Nov 11, 2009 12:05 am ((PST)) Hi Tony, I have used Kasenit many times... Came in a yellow and black can. The idea is to heat up your part/work until it is cherry red, roll it in the compound, (I suggest using a separate container other than the can.) That way , you will not contaminate the rest of the Kasenit. When you roll the part, the compound should fuse onto it. Have a container of cold water handy. Plunge the fused part while still hot into the cold water....Careful here....Safety Goggles! There will be a lot of crackling, noise, and hot water spitting all over. To get a decent amount of penetration, the process of heating, fusing and quenching should be done a few times. Clean the part in between. Think M & M in regard to case hardening.....If there is a lot of work in the "work", I suggest having the heat treatment given to a pro. Regards, Jerry G (Glickstein) P.S. Best name in heat treatment is Alfred Heller Co., if they are still around. ------- Re: Kasenit(was Cam Shaft Grinding) Posted by: "chieftoolmaker" chieftoolmakerx~xxearthlink.net Date: Wed Nov 11, 2009 12:38 am ((PST)) Hi Rich: All right on, and to control the tempering process accurately, "Tempilstiks" are available..... Think crayons made to melt at specified temperatures.... Regards, Jerry G (Glickstein) No commercial connection ------- Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2009 19:52:03 -0800 (PST) From: Robert CARPENTER Subject: [OldTools] Heat treating question for Rev. Hock, et. al. Rev Ron et. al. Please take a look at this: http://www.navaching.com/forge/heattreat.html There is some information here I have not encountered before, and I wonder about the opinion of those on the porch who have forgotten more about steel than I will ever know. The discussion of the specific cooling timeline is facinating, but I don't know to what extent it's true. For any that "scoff" it, have you actually tried the brine quench and recommended cooling process with O1? Or do you simply know that whatever "other" way you do it works perfectly well and provides all one needs in a woodworking edge? Curious minds want to know! Thanks Rex in Tucson ------- Date: Sat, 12 Dec 2009 11:01:20 -0800 From: "Cliff Rohrabacher, Esq." Subject: Re: [OldTools] Heat treating question for Rev. Hock, et. al. Quenching a steel is all about matching two things: (a) the speed at which energy (heat) is transferred out of the steel by the quenching solution to (b) the type of steel used. Oil and water and brine all absorb energy at different rates. While it is logical to say that you can adjust salinity and temperature of the quenchate to use one to replace another it is in my opinion a silly and somewhat pointless exercise. The people who engineer alloys assigning them specific quenching methods and solutions are not just blowing smoke up your back side. I think that author's reasons for using brine are - well - his own. I paid my blue collar dues as a machinist toolmaker. We did all out own heat treating. In the years I've been dunking hot steel in oil I have never once seen a fire. That's not to say that this particular author doesn't have a problem with knocking things over and setting them on fire. Maybe he does. If he gets a result he likes doing it that way, then great. ------- Date: Sat, 12 Dec 2009 10:20:55 -0600 From: Matthew Groves Subject: Re: [OldTools] Heat treating question for Rev. Hock, et. al. It's quality information for the most part. I thought it was funny that he made his case for a brine quenchant, but when talking about pre-quench temperature he says "there's no reason to subject the blade to any more thermal shock than necessary." Using oil seems like a built in way to reduce thermal shock. Matthew Groves Springfield, MO ------- Date: Sat, 12 Dec 2009 10:35:54 -0600 From: Mike Rock Subject: Re: [OldTools] Heat treating question for Rev. Hock, et. al. Just search 'T-T-T curves' and throw in your brand of steel to find what cooling rate will give you your desired microstructure. No arguments over the soaking temperature or cooling. Those are the facts. Mike Here's a neat one with animation!!! http://www.matter.org.uk/steelmatter/metallurgy/7_1_2.html ------- Date: Sat, 12 Dec 2009 12:27:55 -0800 From: Ron Hock Subject: [OldTools] Re: Heat treating question for Rev. Hock, et. al. Wow, Mike, that animation is incredible! The second one beautifully illustrates the quench process. Good link! Far be it from me to criticize anyone for going overboard in the pursuit of perfection (wait till you read my book) but I think http://www.navaching.com/forge/heattreat.html is a bit on the overboard side. I don't think any of his info is wrong or bad, just more work than one needs to do to succeed at diy heat treatment. His info is very detailed and he has presented his wealth of knowledge clearly. He is speaking to knife makers and a knife blade is often a more complex shape than a plane iron so knifemakers may well benefit from this attention to detail. Brine v oil? There is always a fire hazard with hot stuff around oil. Personal protection is essential and a fire extinguisher is a must. This point deserves a "duh!" AFAIC. But why subject your blade to the degree of thermal shock that comes with a brine quench (assuming you're using an oil-hardening steel)? It was alloyed for an oil quench just to avoid the problems that come with thermal shock. The oil will ignite when the hot steel is plunged in but it only burns with a small flame for a few seconds. No suppression necessary, just care not to burn your hands or beard and don't tip over the quench tank. BTW, I used peanut oil for its high flash point and nice(r) smell (what's cooking?). I made over a thousand knives from L6 (saw blades from the mill here in town) and O1. The ones in my kitchen are a joy to use -- hard and sharp. I made a "muffle" from a flue liner and nichrome wire with a digital thermostat -- like a long, narrow broiler. An occasional charcoal briquette scavenged some oxygen from the "oven". So much for my atmosphere control. I did try some occlusive paint to prevent carbon burnout and it worked fairly well. L6 and O1's critical temperature (when the ferrite turns to austenite and at which they are no longer magnetic) is 1450 to 1500F. No need for tempilsticks, non-magnetic and you're good to go. And the soak can be minimal; with knife blades being so thin, once they passed the magnet test, it was quench time. I'd preheat the oil but have been told recently by a metallurgist and heat treatment consultant not to preheat the quench oil. Plunge in oil to quench, stirring slowly, and up and down, to evenly remove the heat. When the violence calms down, the blade can be removed from the oil. If it's warped (and they often were) I had about 15 minutes to bend them straight. After that, they'd be too brittle to bend at all. The martensitic transformation takes place over that time. Temper asap to 325F for Rc62. I built a large shallow deep fryer for tempering, again with digital controls but modern kitchen ovens have digital controls that seem fairly accurate. I'd set my oil bath for 325F and stir once in a while to destratify the oil while I french-fried the blades for a half hour or so. They'd come out fairly ugly so I usually sand blasted them clean. The pro's do this differently. They "martemper" oil hardening steels. Also called an interrupted quench, they remove the steel from the high temperature atmosphere-controlled* oven and dunk it into a tank of molten salt (not table salt, more like fertilizer) at 450F. This intermediary quench gently removes most of the heat but the steel is still above the martensite transformation temperature and can be held in austenitic limbo like that indefinitely. Distortion (warpage) is most likely to occur during the austenite to martensite phase change so, as the steel is past the "nose" of the TT chart (the austenite won't now revert to ferrite), it can now be removed from the salt, allowed to cool yet more gently in still air, convert to martensite and avoid the worst of the distortional stresses. Clever, eh? I have the basic procedure for diy heat treating here: http://www.hocktools.com/diyht.htm. It worked for me. Good luck and be careful, Ron *Their oven uses natural gas for atmosphere control. They add the right amount to balance the carbon content of the steel so none is lost or added. More cleverness. But the oven is electrically heated so when they open it, a huge ball of unburned, very hot gas roars into flame like something from the Wizard of Oz. Very cool. Ron Hock I've written a book on sharpening for woodworkers! The Perfect Edge -- available this fall! (ISBN 978-1558708587) HOCK TOOLS http://www.hocktools.com 16650 Mitchell Creek Dr Fort Bragg, CA 95437 (707) 964-2782 fax (707) 964-7816 ------- Date: Sat, 06 Feb 2010 12:04:45 -0500 From: Dale Warder Subject: Re: [OldTools] Source for flat springs for locks? On Sat, 2010-02-06 at 08:29 -0600, jamesbrown wrote: > In the course of my repair and restoration work, I find cabinets, etc. with non-working locks in need of repair. Often the problem is a broken leaf spring. A couple of examples of the type of springs I'm talking about are shown here: http://pic40.picturetrail.com/VOL377/1006393/17511109/382347882.jpg Two questions: 1. Anyone know of a source for this type of spring? 2. Is there a way to make them; and what metal and procedures would I use? Thanks for any help. James in Keokuk < James: Several years ago I took a course in gunsmithing at Memphis State. In this course one of the techniques demonstrated was making a replacement spring for locks (gun locks). The spring to be duplicated was traced onto a blued piece of soft tool steel available from machine tool shops, and cut from the blank using a jeweler's saw and files. The new spring was then hardened using a torch, and subsequently tempered by reheating on a plate and quenching -- or the too hard spring was placed in a small metal container, covered with motor oil and the oil ignited and allowed to burn out. According to the instructor, this produced the proper temper for a spring. I have only tried this technique once, but it produced a spring which is still in service in a caplock rifle after 11 years. Perhaps this would work in locks as well. Dale - almost under water in upstate SC ------- Date: Sat, 06 Feb 2010 13:48:32 -0800 From: "Cliff Rohrabacher, Esq." Subject: Re: [OldTools] Source for flat springs for locks? Most any spring material can be annealed, hammered out and reheat- treated. Most spring stock will be oil hardening steel. I use the word "Most" only in the most pedestrian sense (mostly, that is). EX: many Automakers use other materials than O1. But the springs that hold garage doors up and quite literally thousands of other springs are O1 and easy to work. ------- Date: Sun, 07 Feb 2010 12:00:53 -0600 From: Mike Siemsen Subject: Re: Re: [OldTools] Source for flat springs for locks? depending on the thickness of the spring you may be able to use old saws or scrapers, they are excellent spring steel. Mike ------- Date: Sun, 07 Feb 2010 10:24:28 -0800 From: scott grandstaff Subject: Re: [OldTools] Source for flat springs for locks? Spring temper steel can always be cut and filed. So all you have to do is find something thicker and larger than you need. The smallest car leaf spring, or an old buggy seat spring ought to give you a lifetime supply and thensome, and you don't need to anneal/reharden/temper at all, if you mind the heat you use to work it. :) yours Scott Scott Grandstaff Box 409 Happy Camp, Ca 96039 http://www.snowcrest.net/kitty/sgrandstaff/ http://www.snowcrest.net/kitty/hpages/index.html ------- Date: Sun, 7 Feb 2010 12:46:32 -0600 From: "jamesbrown" Subject: [OldTools] Re: Source for flat springs for locks? Thanks for all the help on this one. I've gotten several good suggestions, on and off the list. If nothing else, it gives me something to do with the literally dozens of old saw blades I have. Don't know why I didn't think of that. Well, yes I do, just don't want to admit it. James in Keokuk ------- dfm/ metal to hard/2010/03/22//21:26K.T. [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: "catboat15x~xxaol.com" olewilly2000 Date: Tue Mar 23, 2010 2:49 pm ((PDT)) To anneal copper (or brass) heat then let cool naturally or quench, makes no difference. But steel is different, depending on the alloy some steels need quenching from red heat and some don't. When building copper boilers and such I heat then quench in a weak acid bath (watch out for splashes). But when I am using drill rod to make a special tool, I quench in plain water. You can purchase "water hardening" or "oil hardening" drill rod and flat plate. (The flat stuff is expensive, but good for valve links, etc.) Both the round rod and plate are supplied in a fully annealed temper ready for machining to whatever you need, then heat and quench, re-heat to the temper needed and maybe touch up cutting edges with a stone and you have created your own special reamer or step drill etc. One thing I made and used for a long time was a special tap with a long pin lead or nose. Used to tap the holes in boiler wrapper sheets for stays. The long nose of minor diameter kept the tapped holes aligned during threading so the stays could be inserted. Another way to achieve a hard wearing surface is by machining the part from mild steel, then case harden the working portions. I have many miles on my 3-1/2 inch gauge 4-4-0 American type engine and the case hardened links in the valve gear show little wear. (The operator and owner show a lot of wear though.) ------- Re: Case Hardening [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: "Russ Kepler" russx~xxkepler-eng.com rkepler007 Date: Mon Apr 12, 2010 6:14 pm ((PDT)) On Monday 12 April 2010 18:02:58 hpethoud wrote: > Can someone tell me the best way to case harden cold roll steel > in the home shop. Send it to a heat treat shop? Seriously, in my home shop I'd use a carbon pack (hardwood charcoal with sodium carbonate) in the heat treat oven, but I imagine that you don't have a heat treat oven or you wouldn't be asking this. If I wanted more case I'd send it out. You might get some skin with Kasenite, a torch and a lot of patience. Heat to orange, dip, reheat and keep it there. If the Kasenite drips off redip and get it hot again. 30 minutes to get something like .010 case - if you can keep it hot. Hot enough that it doesn't attract a magnet. Afterwards you'll want to normalize a couple of times before hardening, at least in my experience. If you can keep the temperature just above critical and not overheat you might get away with a quench with the Kasenite. Good luck. ------- Re: Case Hardening Posted by: "Chuck" friscokid911x~xxmsn.com Date: Tue Apr 13, 2010 12:53 am ((PDT)) Kasenite is some pretty handy stuff!! Easy to use, and gives good results without a lot of experience!! Just follow the label and you should be set! If you can't find it locally, I have ordered it from either Brownells or Blue Ridge Supply. (There are several other places that carry the stuff. That's just where I have ordered it from so far...) ------- Re: Case Hardening Posted by: "Ron Gerlach" r7734gx~xxhotmail.com Date: Tue Apr 13, 2010 9:27 am ((PDT)) Chuck: I agree. I have used Kasenite on numerous occasions and got excellent results. I can't do hardness testing but the resulting surfaces are always file hard and deep enough that they can withstand some mild grinding. This has been plenty good for my model engine and occasional tool making jobs. If I want a real good hardening, I pack the Kasenite around the part sitting inside of a steel tube remnant and let it sit in the heat treating oven for 15 to 30 minutes before quenching it. The container can be any steel tube, pipe, box, etc. that is big enough to hold the part as well as contain the Kasenite around it. RonG ------- Re: Case Hardening Posted by: "L. Garlinghouse" lhghousex~xxsuddenlink.net Date: Tue Apr 13, 2010 8:20 am ((PDT)) There is a competitive product to Kasenite, "Cherry Red" which is available from www.BlacksmithsDepot.com [go to "supplies" section] aka Kayne and Son in Candler NC. Pretty much the same drill: heat, dip, heat dip, quench [I think . . . I'm still on my first cup of coffee and not as sharp as I hope to be.] They also sell Kasenite, but when I asked about it to Kayne Sr., he recommended the Cherry Red. In any event a neat site to browse. Later, L.H. Garlinghouse Arkansas USA ------- Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2010 18:05:56 +1000 From: "John Manners" Subject: Re: [OldTools] Losing One's Temper Gary writes: > Galoots have shared a lot of different marking knife designs: I was > thinking of an awl-end design, or if I succumb to the fear of > eventually poking my eye out, I'll round the end off. I also don't > know if I will attach scales or not. I don't want to disturb the > factory temper, so the idea of drilling for rivets is a bit daunting. Quite a lot of drilling through highly tempered stuff is accomplished by annealing the spot to be drilled with a blunt nail in an electric (Heresy! Burn that man at the stake!) drill, spun against the metal until the colour one believes to be cherry red is engendered at the spot in question. The trick to doing this satisfactorily is to spin the nail from both sides of the site for the hole and this means popping the mark on one side and using a pair of callipers to find the appropriate mark on the opposite side. Otherwise, it takes too long to anneal the spot through the thickness of the workpiece from one side only. This "spot" annealing stays local and does not seem to affect adversely the temper of the balance of the workpiece. Regards from Brisbane, John Manners ------- NOTE TO FILE: In the above email, John uses the word heresy to describe the use of an electric drill. In the Oldtools group discussions, they are dedicated to manually operated tools. Of course, we know that most everyone there has an electric tool or two in their shop; it just is not considered politic to mention them in the group conversations ;-) ------- Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2010 21:44:48 -0700 (PDT) From: gary may Subject: [OldTools] hardening copper ggs: Tried for the first time last night to harden a bit of sheet copper ---I made an escutcheon to cover some re-directed bolt holes, turning an abvious F-up into a 'feature'--anyway, the copper as supplied is soft enough to score with a knife, and then bend til it breaks pretty cleanly, so I did that, then tried to harden it. I was taught years ago to heat sheet copper to cherry red, then let it cool slowly to harden it. Quenching aneals it, at least it did in junior high metal shop, where I made a candy dish my mom's still got. This bit of copper got softer that way, so I tried quenching it from red hot, and it got as soft as lead. Both treatments made it far softer than original stock, though I think the quenching made it softest of all. Any advice? If it matters, I heated this stuff on my gas stove, and only could get to dull red. If cherry red is what you gotta get, that could be the problem. But I'm not sure I wanna do that on the stove, OR in the workshop full of shavings. Anyway, please advise. best to all galoots, everywhere--- gAM in seattle ------- Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2010 23:55:15 -0500 From: WesG Subject: Re: [OldTools] hardening copper Hi Gary: The reason it breaks when you bend it is because you're "work hardening" it and then metal gives up and breaks. The best way to harden copper is to hammer it. If you're trying to achieve a smooth finish, you'll need a very lightly rounded, polished hammer and a smooth steel plate beneath it. Just hammer lightly but evenly all over the escutcheon until every part has been dimpled. Then you can remove the texture by filing it. It's kinda tricky to hold down something small and flat while you file, but a small piece of wood with one or two brad heads sticking up will work. Cheers, Wes ------- Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2010 08:55:21 +0100 From: "Jeff Gorman" Subject: RE: [OldTools] hardening copper > Then you can remove the texture by filing it. It's kinda tricky to > hold down something small and flat while you file, but a small piece > of wood with one or two brad heads sticking up will work. I was taught to do this by mounting the hammered plate on a wooden block and surrounding it with several panel pins that just touch its sides until the raised parts of the pin heads just dent the copper. Then file until the pin heads are flush and you can file the entire surface. I seem to remember that you need to keep steel filings from scoring the copper, so much puffing (goggles?) and liberal cleaning of the file with a file card is advisable. Cheaper than the kind of vice-like whatsaname that jewellers use. Jeff Gorman, West Yorkshire, UK http://www.amgron.clara.net ------- Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2010 23:11:33 -0700 From: Graham Hughes Subject: Re: [OldTools] hardening copper I wanted to second Wes's response. Almost everything I know about the subject (very small amount) and have been able to find out (slightly larger amount) and what experienced metalworkers have told me (much larger amount) tells me that the only metal you can quench harden like iron is iron (and its alloys, fine). Copper, brass, zinc, bronze, aluminum, titanium all have to be work hardened; with sheet brass I believe this was traditionally done with a flatter and an anvil and a strapping young lad to swing the sledge. You have to be much more careful with it because it generally does not tell you when it's on the verge of shattering. Graham ------- Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2010 17:35:26 -0400 From: "ASRA-Eduardo De Diego" Subject: RE: [OldTools] hardening copper Wes says" Cliff, that may be somebody's theory, but it's not true. Heating copper to cherry red and cooling it in air or water will soften it." Been there, done that; When I was in University, my summer job was at a jewellery manufacturer. Early on in my jewellery "career", I was shown how to heat sheets of copper to cherry red and then water quench. Then rolled to correct thickness, which is of course work-hardening. This was just before we used a punch press to punch out oval blanks for cufflinks, tiepins, etc. Following that, the blanks were again heated to cherry red and quenched, prior to the die-stamping process that put the features on the blanks. (Peter McBride must be cringing by now:-) Then off to the spot welding station for the accessories and then the plating baths. As you can see this was not Cartier, and mass production was the order of the day. They did manufacture some custom high-end stuff, but I only entered that workshop in year 2, and spent most of my time doing lost-wax and centrifugal casting. BTW, does anyone still use tiepins anymore? Yes its OT, I know.... cheers from Ottawa. ------- Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2010 20:08:46 -0400 From: "Todd Hughes" Subject: Re: [OldTools] hardening copper At one time I developed an interest in making copper and bronze knives, had a good knife and axe customer that wanted me to make him a couple, so figured I would give it a try. Was kind of fun and they came out OK. Actually ended up making about half dozen plus some spear heads and celts [axe heads]. I made them mostly out of heavy sheet that I got from an old printing shop, cut them out and forged them -- some cold and then with a small hammer and lots of light blows work hardened the edge. Trick was knowing when to stop before they would split on you. They wouldn't get as hard as steel of course but I got them so they seemed about as hard as wrought iron. You could put a sharp edge on them but they wouldn't keep it anywhere near like a steel knife, but the hammering for sure hardened them a good bit. The bronze ones as expected got harder than the copper. Interestingly it used to be thought that the ancients knew a secret method or formula to harden their bronze and copper tools. Richard Burton in his Book of the Sword goes on about how maybe someday how they did it will be discovered again, he thought they had a secret alloy. I think they probably just work hardened them and that they probably weren't as hard as Burton and others thought they were. Copper and Brass are softened [annealed] by heating them; traditionally they were then quenched in water but in my experience if you let them air cool they get just as soft. I think they were quenched originally because it sped things up and gave the same result as if you let them cool slow. Todd ------- Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2010 21:02:18 -0700 (PDT) From: Thomas Conroy Subject: Re: [OldTools] hardening copper Oh Galoots: It's also useful to know that copper and copper alloys workharden **fast**. And as they harden they become brittle, just like steel. I sometimes make leatherworkers' fids (tiny compared to sailors' wooden fids) out of brass rod about 1/4" in diameter. The first step is to hammer the end inch or so tapering down to a flat about 1/16" thick. I hammer the brass cold on a jewelers' anvil (a plain steel block). The first blow will flatten it a lot; the second will flatten it much less. By the fourth blow you can wale on it again and again without flattening it, and then suddenly it will crack or shatter. DAMHIKT (an appeal to experience, which isn't a logical fallacy but which will be if you repeat the observation after me to someone else, in which case it will become an appeal to authority, not experience). Nowadays when I am hammering brass I will anneal it about every third or fourth blow. It makes things a lot easier in the long run, even though it sounds like a lot of wasted time. I've read that quenching copper alloys can cause the metal to crack, and that annealed brass should always be allowed to cool slowly (appeal to authority! Naughty! Naughty!) I've never had any cracking happen with quenching, so I have come to the belief that it may be a problem only with thick stock, or with tricky shapes where expansion-contraction speeds would differ from part to part, or maybe with some particular alloys. Even though I haven't had a problem with quenching yet, I tend to let annealed brass cool slowly when it is convenient. I didn't believe about how work-hardened brass splits with extra hammering until it happened to me--- on a piece I had put a lot of work into, and which was shaping up well. Tom Conroy Berkeley ------- Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2010 21:27:31 +0800 From: Peter Huisman Subject: [OldTools] Re: hardening copper My mother - to me a person of "authority" - would have said to me when I was a very young, curious person still crawling around on my knees, upon approaching the fireplace in which the embers glowed, "be careful Peter, or you will burn your fingers". I knew she had authority, whether learned from personal experience or an unfailing belief in her mother, because whatever she told me to not do, and what the consequences might be, inevitably came true. But, her authority for the most part for me, gave me the initiative to discover for myself, and discover the truth. And so it has been for most of my life. Authority is a starting point, and when it confirms fact, I am then inclined to believe it. A motor cycle mechanic, on being told that the head gasket of my '65 BSA appeared to be allowing oil to leak, said to me, "remove it, heat it both sides to cherry red, and re-install it once cooled". At school shop I had already learned the copper softening thing, so I was more than happy to believe that I can do this with the gasket which otherwise would be difficult to find a new replacement for. PeterH in Perth ------- Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2011 13:09:24 -0800 From: James Thompson Subject: [OldTools] Metal working help needed WOW! I just tried to harden a plastic handled Stanley Handyman chisel. It is an inch wide. I removed the handle and annealed it, then ground it to be a dovetail chisel. Took it to the O/A torch and used my normal method of hardening, cherry red, then quench in water. When I pulled it out of the water bath, the sucker had curled up like a samauri sword. The back was convex the length of the blade. A LOT convex. So being really, REALLY, smart already, I just annealed it and made it straight again on the anvil. Then I took it back to harden just the end. Sounds logical to me. How hard could this be??? I heated up no more than 3/4" of the end and quenched it again. This time it curled across the blade end. Kinda looks like a snake now. A junker for sure. I had just done a mate to this one which is 1/2" wide, and it gave me no problem at all. I am whupped, boys and girls. I am at the end of my rope. What is my problem? I thought I knew how to do this, but obviously I don't. You blacksmiths out there need to get me squared away. I still have one more to do, but I ain't even gonna try it yet. Scratching my head in bewilderment.... Jim Thompson, the Oldmillrat in Riverside California ------- Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2011 16:12:06 -0500 From: Anthony Seo Subject: Re: [OldTools] Metal working help needed The problem is that those are drop forged steel (think cast iron under a couple or 30 tons of pressure). Conventional heating ain't the way to go with those guys. Tony Olde River Hard Goods http://www.oldetoolshop.com TSMusic on Facebook http://www.facebook.com/tonyseomusic ------- Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2011 13:19:28 -0800 From: James Thompson Subject: Re: [OldTools] Metal working help needed OK, I understand drop forging. If conventional heating is not the way to go, then what is? Like I said, I had no problem with the first one. I think it was probably made exactly the same way. Same brand, etc. ------- Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2011 14:17:26 -0800 From: scott grandstaff Subject: Re: [OldTools] Metal working help needed Was the water boiling?? Cold water quench is never ok, unless you are doing horseshoes on TV. :) Try this, just for fun: Heat the chisel cherry again and hold it there for a minute. Let air cool. If this hardens, it's air hardening steel. If not, heat again and try oil. It;s quenching too fast. yours Scott Scott Grandstaff Box 409 Happy Camp, Ca 96039 http://www.snowcrest.net/kitty/sgrandstaff/ http://www.snowcrest.net/kitty/hpages/index.html ------- Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2011 17:29:02 -0600 From: WesG Subject: Re: [OldTools] Metal working help needed There's no water temperature that would be responsible for the deformation that Jim described. I'm just guessing here so it's just my opinion but I think it was just a bad chisel. Drop forging isn't a very good way to make a chisel, but it *is* cheap and that's probably why they made em that way. Jim, can you post a picture of the victim? Wes ------- Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2011 22:02:05 -0800 From: "Cliff Rohrabacher, Esq." Subject: Re: [OldTools] Metal working help needed I'm curious why you used water. If you are using water, always salt it heavily. This prevents what is called in the trade "hot spots" where the steaming water forms bubbles and fails to cool rapidly enough. But there's another issue: How do you know that water is the best quenchate? The chisel may have been made from an S stock which is brine quenched or an Oil Hardening stock. ------- Date: Sat, 21 May 2011 13:02:39 -0700 (PDT) From: Thomas Conroy Subject: [OldTools] MAPP Gas, Alas! Oh Galoots: I have been doing some small-scale blademaking (wooden spokeshave, small carving knife, mini-floats) working from files with a common propane torch, and telling myself that I have to get MAPP gas because propane isn't hot enough and takes forever, even on the little things I am doing. A couple of days ago I was told that MAPP gas is no longer made, and that what is now being sold in the yellow cylinders isn't that much hotter than propane. Wikipedia says that the flame temperature of propane in air is about 3,450 F. and MAPP is over 5,000 F., but that one of the ingredients of MAPP went out of production in 2008 and the current Bernzomatic MAP (one-P) gas is only 3,600 F. Not enough hotter to justify the higher cost, I would say. Has anyone faced this problem? Is there any simple, safe, hotter alternative to propane? My house is a fire trap at best, so one of the main appeals of MAPP was having a small single cylinder I could keep good control of, with relatively little to go wrong. Cost is an issue too. Oldtools content: this became an issue because I bought my first wooden spokeshave when fleaBagging last December, and decided that keeping it as found and copying it made better sense than using it up. I made the mistake of cutting out a blank (of jatoba; harsher on tool edges than teak and worse rowed than mahogany, it turns out, and I doubt I will buy more if I can help it) and cutting the ware, which committed me to copying the original blade using an old file. I did so. I don't want to ever have to anneal a file with propane ever ever again, or to harden a blade, and when I say that I tempered a chip knife and a spokeshave blade with an open propane flame to an acceptable if not ideal color (dark bronze) you will understand that I am boasting. The shave is done and works very nicely but it is already clear that this is a tool where extra-long edge retention is well worth the extra sharpening time, and I should have left it as hard as I dared. Oh, well, next time I'll know--- just as I'll know, as John Whelan points out in a chapter on making spokeshaves that I didn't realize existed until it was too late, as, I say, Whelan points out, never start cutting wood for a spokeshave before you have the blade in hand. And that the first thing you should do to the wood is make and fettle the holes for the tangs, then square everything else to the blade. Tom Conroy, entrapped in grammar in San Francisco ------- Date: Sat, 21 May 2011 16:27:53 -0500 From: WesG Subject: Re: [OldTools] MAPP Gas, Alas! Tom: Whether or not the yellow can is mapp gas won't really matter if you use two flames at the same time. I first saw Tod Herrli demo this at G-plooza once. I can't speak to the speed of using 2 *propane* cans at once, but I use a mapp torch and a propane torch at the same time when I need to heat something fast and oxy-acetylene is too much. (Again, I'm not saying Mapp and Propane is a "secret trick"... It's just the only combo I've tried.) My guess is that the "surround effect" speeds up the process. Another possibility to try is to build a firebrick forge. (google that) But if you're doing this inside... That's never a great idea. Cheers, Wes ------- Date: Sat, 21 May 2011 18:34:41 -0400 From: Bob Miller Subject: Re: [OldTools] MAPP Gas, Alas! This chart from a former MAPP supplier (I went through this same worry about a year ago) shows that MAPP and MAP Pro are both pretty close and both considerably better than propane. They have reasons to convince you that MAP Pro is as good, OTOH they give exact, easily testable, numbers that they could get in a lot of trouble for if they faked. http://www.magtorch.com/Fuel%20Comparison%20Chart%20-%20Magna%20Ind ustries,%20Inc.pdf I have happily made some small cutting tools with a MAP Pro torch in my basement. You might want to consider making a 2 layer tin can forge, as all it requires is 2 tin cans (one bigger than the other), some nuts and bolts to make an air gap between the two and some more nuts and bolts to make legs. Takes up very little space and really juices what you can do with a plumber's torch. Bob ------- Date: Sat, 21 May 2011 20:18:21 -0700 From: "Cliff Rohrabacher, Esq." Subject: Re: [OldTools] MAPP Gas, Alas! You could do plain old fashioned Air injection. Yah a two hose rig with a valved tip is needed and you need an air pump (any air pump will do). But once you go that route you can use propane in the 30 pound cylinders. I torched a roof down that way with a rosebud tip. I'll NEVER use torch down roofing again. The stuff shrinks a hell of a lot after you lay it down. After about 7 - 10 years it can shrink as much as 3" from the drip edge. Talk about nightmares. ------- Date: Sat, 21 May 2011 17:30:17 -0700 From: scott grandstaff Subject: Re: [OldTools] MAPP Gas, Alas! Yeah Tom, Wes is right. Get two torches (I like the squatty bottles, they are more stable) and get them going and point them at each other. With a little wiggling you can set up a sweet little vortex and when you put your steel into that it heats at a speed of 3-4X. What took you 5 minutes to cherry heat, takes you 1-2. It's sometimes possible to put your work in locking tongs, if it has a tang on it (visegrip usually), and mount in your vise and set up your bottles and do something else while it heats. Another thing I always do with small work. If you get one of those one burner cooking stove (propane torch bottle), burners? You can light that and toss your work on it and let it preheat. Sometimes I'll take a bottle torch in my hand and train it onto the work preheating on the stove burner. Just what works for me. yours Scott Scott Grandstaff Box 409 Happy Camp, Ca 96039 scottgx~xxsnowcrest.net http://www.snowcrest.net/kitty/sgrandstaff/ http://www.snowcrest.net/kitty/hpages/index.html ------- Date: Sat, 21 May 2011 21:37:35 -0500 From: "Dave? Hahn" Subject: Re: [OldTools] MAPP Gas, Alas! I'll vouch for the 2 can "forge" notion, outside however, the wife is overly sensitive to strange smells (ha!). A recent pop woodworking article turned me on to that, so I took a soup can and a larger can and put one inside the other (about 3/8 to 1/2 inch gap between the two) and cut another can in half to make a back on it (I'd already cut both the top and bottom out of the larger can). Some metal strap for legs. I'm just heat treating a small thread box cutter out of an old hex wrench, but even with propane, it's a noticeable difference in the two cans vs out in the open. A word of warning tho, the cans I used had some plastic coating or something so on the first firing, all that caught fire an the whole thing was up in flames for 30 sec or so. No problems after that. I've never used MAPP gas, and I have no scientific evidence, but in open air, MAP Pro definitely was noticeably hotter than propane from a plumber's torch when I was heating up an old box end wrench to modify it for a particular purpose. Haven't used the MAP Pro inside the 2 can forge, but I've only been heating up small things, not knives or plane blades yet. Regardless, if you really want some efficiency, get some fire brick or new fangled high temp insulation material. Many web sites out there on propane fired forges, here's one of them with some examples made from old coffee cans (except the wife buys coffee in plastic containers, gah!), or from fire brick. I've never purchased anything of the sort from this guy or from anyone yet. I'm thinking fire brick myself. http://www.zoellerforge.com/miniforge.html The torch I have is the BZ 8250 like at the very bottom of the page. Probably should have just gone either cheaper or with something real (let's face it, bernzomatic ain't the top of the line, decent stuff, but there is way better out there if you want to pay for it). Looks similar to the galoot "citernmaker" (sorry, I'm bad with names) on GIC with small insulated can making cutters for a big thread box. D? ------- Date: Sat, 21 May 2011 22:58:42 -0400 From: "Dave Nighswander" Subject: Re: [OldTools] MAPP Gas, Alas! At the risk of preaching to the choir, a firebrick forge will greatly increase the effectiveness of the heat source, either electricity, MAPP or propane. My physics isn't deep enough to explain why, but my experience tells me that the brick absorbs heat from the flame and reflects it back into the chamber to create a storage capacitor effect. As far as the heating inside or outside goes due caution should be practiced, but I think an open flame has a higher mayhem potential than a controlled heat source in a insulated chamber. Snip Another possibility to try is to build a firebrick forge. (google that) But if you're doing this inside... That's never a great idea. Cheers, Wes Snip If you're able to work in a well ventilated area, outside or under the carport is best, a simple pot filled with charcoal and a bellows (old tool content) will heat the steel to welding heat faster than propane. (A hair dryer will prevent repetitive motion issues.) ------- Date: Sun, 22 May 2011 00:33:23 -0400 From: nicknaylox~xxaol.com Subject: Re: [OldTools] MAPP Gas, Alas! Hey Tom, More of the same from me. Firebrick and/or a couple of torches is the trick. You can stack a small pile of the hard bricks together (Urban Ore often has piles of them cheap) or if you can find a soft firebrick (know any potters?), those are easy to carve into a little furnace. http://galootcentral.com/index.php?option=com_cop perminevis&Itemid=2&place=displayimage&album=6&pos=51 I can lend you the firebrick version if you think the spokeshave blades you're making will fit into the chamber (I've fit molding plane irons and a crooked knife blade in there (the latter, just barely). This is the insulated pipe forge, a bit roomier but works a lot like the firebrick version. http://galootcentral.com/index.php?option=com_cop perminevis&Itemid=2&place=displayimage&album=6&pos=46 I honestly haven't noticed much of a difference in the old and new MAPP/MAP Pro yellow cylinders. Couple of bricks on your porch sometime? Michael ------- Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2011 15:18:49 -0400 From: John Ruth Subject: RE: [OldTools] Making a Maker's Mark Scott Grandstaff Wrote: >And yeah Roy, a rail spike would be fine, for wood. >In fact a rail spike can be hardened for long service if you want. >Just look how many knives are made from them. I want to put my two cents worth in here by repeating something that has appeared on the porch from time to time: Not all RR spikes are equal. You will find spikes with "HC" on the head for "High Carbon". These are used on curves and other places where a higher-yield spike is needed. I've seen one that said "MC" on the head, presumably "Medium Carbon" for intermediate stresses. Spikes without head markings (other than trademarks) can be presumed to be ordinary mild steel. The RR spike knives are made only from "HC" spikes, at least the better ones are. Then again, there's always "case hardening". I want to say that I learned something from this thread which prabably saved a family heirloom. I have a set of metal letter and number stamps with fancy serifs. My late father told me that his father, an early electrician, used these stamps to mark lead-sheathed electrical cables. (Used underground in the early days of electricity.) Those stamps are not "sharp faced" - thanks to this thread, I now know that I must NEVER use them on steel, even hot steel. It's only by the grace of God that I did not ruin these already - I've had access to them since boyhood! I'm grateful that I've only used them on wood and soft copper. I have a set of sharp-faced sans-serif stamps that I bought at a flea market. I now know that those are the ones to be used on steel. I also know that they are not redundant, that I "need" both these sets. John Ruth Metuchen NJ ------- Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2011 13:10:58 -0700 From: James Thompson Subject: Re: [OldTools] Making a Maker's Mark OK, now I have to become argumentative. A recent large railroad repair near my house left hundreds of both new and old railroad spikes laying everywhere, and they were not cleaned up, just left to rot. On my daily walks I would pick up a couple and bring them home. I now have a milk bottle box, about 12" by 12" by 16 " neatly stacked with spikes. I am guessing at probably more than 200 pounds of spikes. (I got them for a friend to use in his blacksmithing demos) These spikes bear several different markings, many such as John has mentioned. I had heard before that these markings had to do with carbon content and hardening ability. I am sorry, but it seems to be an urban myth. I tried hardening all the different marked spikes. It just doesn't work. They are no harder after a heat and quench than they were before. I am left to believe that the markings are just makers' marks. If someone has had a different experience from mine, I'd like to hear about it. I might be full of bull feathers. Two cents worth from me, probably worth less. ------- Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2011 13:11:28 -0800 From: Phil Koontz Subject: [OldTools] Carbon myths Something in a recent thread about makers marks sent me off on a quest for the true facts about "High Carbon" RR spikes. I found a lot of variation in the claims for the actual carbon content in the spikes, but here's the one that seems most credible to me: http://www.cartercrafts.com/carbon_myth.htm The relevant quote--"According to specifications set forth by American Railway Engineering Association there are two classes of railroad spikes, low carbon track spikes used on straight sections of railroads and high carbon steel track spikes used on curves and switches. According to the specifications, low carbon spikes may contain no more than 0.12% carbon and "High Carbon" spikes may contain NO MORE THAN 0.30% carbon." The railroads worked with low and (occasionally) medium carbon steels and with cast iron for a good reason--the constant pounding and long design life of their stuff required that they use materials which would never work harden. Boiler shells, tubes, and rivets in particular are made of about the most basic soft iron the makers can find. As a result, the high carbon spikes were (probably) made of what toolmakers would consider low carbon steel, as were the tracks and hardware. There are some other good entries on the same page, including one about forging somehow improving steel, and in particular the practice of "packing" a forged knife edge. It's an example of what I call hoodoo blacksmithing. Damascus steel is also mentioned, although laminated edges are not. All the way at the bottom of the page is an interesting article about the origin of the Bowie knife. Just for fun-- PK ------- Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2011 17:20:22 -0400 From: John Ruth Subject: RE: [OldTools] Making a Maker's Mark GG's: Jim Thompson's comments left me wondering if I was going to have to polish the spittoon. A quick internet search showed that we're both right, sort of. An HC spike is "HighER Carbon", but still low enough that it is considered a "Low Carbon Steel" which does not harden readily. One source said that even the HC spikes are only good as letter openers. So, in retrospect, I wish I have not made that post. John Ruth P.S. The spikes laying along a RR right-of-way after a maintenance project will eventually be picked up by a salvage train with an electromagnet. Sometimes this is years after the project that left the spikes. ------- Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2011 20:37:46 -0700 From: Tom Holloway Subject: Re: [OldTools] Making a Maker's Mark > So, in retrospect, I wish I have not made that post. No problem, John. It got some of us thinking about this small question, where we had not before. I was going to comment earlier re the "many knives made of RR spikes": Yes, many knifes have been made of RR spikes. Some of them probably look good. I wonder how many of them were worth a durn as *knives*, i.e., would take an edge and hold it in use, rather than just display. From what Phil Koontz has come up with, the answer seems to be "probably not many." Tom Holloway ------- Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2011 19:47:03 -0800 From: Phil Koontz Subject: Re: [OldTools] Making a Maker's Mark Just FWIW, this has echoed around blacksmith lists for as long as I have been on the wire, and probably predates the internet by centuries. Anyone who is interested in spike knives might want to consider googling "superquench." IMHO, it's another example of blacksmithing hoodoo, but the idea is that there is a recipe that combines a high boiling point, good surface wetting, and high heat capacity that can cool low carbon steel so fast that it hardens adequately for making knives. I tried it a time or two and wasn't impressed, but YMMV. And as Tom said, no need to apologize. We're just yakking here. No harm done. PK ------- Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2011 22:57:55 -0500 From: WesG Subject: Re: [OldTools] Making a Maker's Mark Hopefully Jim Crammond can weigh in on RR steel of all varieties. Years ago he gave me a bucket of RR steel that I made into various tools and such. The spring clips were absolutely amazing stuff. 1 x 1 inch square that I straightened and made into texturing punches that have held up to this day. Making them straight by hand was REALLY hard work, but great heavy hammer practice. I've only worked with a couple of spikes and they were hard work to forge. I think they're good for novelty knives, but I haven't seen any full time bladesmiths choose RR spikes for their primary material. YMMV of course and any hand forged knife is a good hand forged knife in my opinion. Cheers, Wes ------- Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2011 09:13:22 -0700 (PDT) From: Jim Crammond Subject: Re: [OldTools] Making a Maker's Mark Metalworking Galoots, There are a number of different steel components that are assembled together along with railroad ties (sleepers, Jeff) to make up railroad track. All of the different components have a chemical composition specified by the American Railway Engineering and Maintenance Association (AREMA was American Railway Engineering Association, AREA, until the mid 1990s). The different pieces of track material that you would commonly see are rail, spikes, track bolts, tie plates, joint bars and rail anchors. I think the two most promising kinds of material for toolmaking (because of carbon content) would be the rail and rail anchors. You also find silicon, manganese, chrome, copper and other things in the different alloys depending on the application. In going through the AREMA Manual quickly, I have put together a quick reference concerning carbon content and other elements. The numbers cited are percent by weight. RAIL min max Carbon 0.72 0.82 Manganese 0.80 1.10 Phosphorus 0 0.035 Sulfur 0 0.037 Nickel 0 0.25 Silicon 0.10 0.50 Chromium 0 0.25 Molybdenum 0 0.10 Vanadium 0 0.03 JOINT BARS Carbon 0.45 No Max. Specified Phosphorus 0 0.04 TRACK BOLTS Carbon 0.30 No Max. Specified Phosphorus 0 0.04 Sulfur 0 0.06 TIE PLATES Carbon 0.35 0.85 Phosphorus 0 0.05 Sulfur 0 0.04 HIGH CARBON SPIKES Carbon 0.30 No Max. Specified Copper 0.20 " " LOW CARBON SPIKES Carbon 0.12 No Max. Specified Copper 0.20 " " Rail Anchors, no specifications for chemical composition are given but these are basically springs so should be comparable to leaf springs. These are the items that were turned into punces by Wes. This is probably more information than you wanted to know, but at least it is documented for the Archives. Jim Crammond in Monroe, Mi. ------- Date: Sun, 8 Jan 2012 21:46:55 -0600 From: "Dave? Hahn" Subject: [OldTools] two soup can insulator (I'm sure someone has already posted about this, but this time we have pics :) Most of you who have a desire to heat treat your own tool steel probably are already doing so. For those who aren't, here's a simple to make item that will help speed up the heating process. http://galootcentral.com/index.php?option=com_copperminevis&Item id=2&place=thumbnails&album=652 This was completely inspired by an article in popular woodworking about making a handplane (within the past year, I could look it up if someone cares). Take two soup cans, one larger than the other. Somehow attach them together so one sits consistently inside the other. Maybe put some legs of some sort on it. This simple goofy thing cuts the time in half it takes me to heat any given piece of metal up to the hardening temperature. I just have the newer bernzomatic torch with a hose (BZ8250HT) http://www.bernzomatic.com/PRODUCTS/TORCHES/PROFESSIONALTOR CHES/tabid/230/ctl/Detail/mid/1009/xmid/6940/xmfid/3/Default.aspx And even just using propane (I like the "fat boy" cylinders) it only takes about 90 seconds to head the end (3/4 of an inch or so) of a piece of 3/8 O-1 up to the right temp. I just hold the metal in the mouth of the thing and fire the torch at the metal. I've found that if I put the torch in at an angle you'll get the swirly flame effect. Not sure if that helps or hurts. One watch out. The cans I used apparently had some sort of coating on them. So on the first time I used it, all that plastic caught on fire and burned for 30 seconds or so with what was likely super toxic smoke. You should be doing this outside or in a well ventilated area anyway, but nothing like 2 empty cans catching on fire to make you go, whoa! Obviously something more forge like or that incorporates fire brick or high temp insulation would be far better, but if you need something fast and cheap for the occasional work, it beats heating in open air. For those who need the whole rundown on heat treating tool steel, a standard good read is Rev Ron's writeup: http://www.hocktools.com/diyht.htm I use veg oil instead of peanut oil, FYI. D? ------- Date: Sun, 08 Jan 2012 20:13:34 -0800 From: Brent Beach Subject: Re: [OldTools] two soup can insulator Galoots The plastic lining in many tin cans contains the dreaded Bisphenol A (BPA). It is not longer allowed in most plastic products, but continues to be used for tin can linings. Yep, that special ingredient in your tomato soup. You can probably find tin cans that have only tin in them. If not, extreme precautions make sense when firing for the first time. Brent Victoria, B.C., Canada ------- Date: Sun, 08 Jan 2012 23:28:41 -0500 From: Ed Bell Subject: Re: [OldTools] two soup can insulator Thanks! Takes less room than a forge. :-) Ed ------- Date: Sun, 8 Jan 2012 22:30:49 -0600 From: "Dave? Hahn" Subject: Re: [OldTools] two soup can insulator Yeah, the inner can originally had diced tomatoes in it (IIRC) and it was a good foot or two of flames. As I said, I was outside (since I was using fire and making metal real hot anyway), but making sure you aren't downwind is a good idea as well. I've done some other stuff with a can that originally had black beans in it and it was much less of a fire show. D? ------- Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2012 16:21:33 -0500 From: "andy baughn" Subject: RE: [OldTools] two soup can insulator I used one of swmbo's flower pots full of charcoal then put that inside a cinderblock. Worked really well but the flowerpot died, don't tell SWMBO. Bad Andy ------- Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2012 21:12:44 -0700 From: scott grandstaff Subject: Re: [OldTools] Safe Files I have made a few safe files for various applications. The last one was for filing guitar frets without scratching the board. Anyway, just grind off the teeth, whats hard about that? If I wanted to do the wide faces I'd use padded vise jaws (aluminum roadsign of course, my favorite jaw liners.) And use an angle grinder. Same as any other kind of grinding, keep the stone moving and don't go too long in any one place and dunk it often (or keep a pop bottle of water handy and douse it), and you won't hurt it. To completely anneal any kind of tool steel I stick it in the woodstove before going to bed. Make a pile of glowing coals near the air inlet and bury it there. A traditional barbecue with charcoal or briquettes would work too, I recon. Maybe you'd have to use a hair dryer to get it hot enough initially? It has to be cherry to start. As the fire dies down, it dies slow, and so does the steel. Fish it out in the morning and its soft as butter. I'm just a lazy guy?? wull, yeah I am, but it works Oh, for filing the corners of a plane mouth? Any regular file that fits is fine. Just use the edges and stay away from the face teeth. Easy enough again. yours Scott Scott Grandstaff Box 409 Happy Camp, Ca 96039 http://www.snowcrest.net/kitty/sgrandstaff/ http://www.snowcrest.net/kitty/hpages/index.html ------- Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2012 00:38:46 -0700 (PDT) From: Thomas Conroy Subject: Re: [OldTools] over-heating hardened steel Rudy Desjardins wrote: "Based on a number of things I've read recently, it seems to me that the general consensus is that a sander (as opposed to grinder of some sort) will *not* ruin a temper, and you're more or less safe to go nuts on hardened/tempered tool steel without worrying about softening it/burning it/etc. Is this true?..." No. Certainly not. Some belt sanders are slower than some bench grinders, but you don't want to assume a belt sander won't "burn" steel (as others have said, there is no combustion or even significant loss of carbon below red heat; it's more like "burning" is slang for the over-tempering effect of over-heating by friction and the associated diagnostic but not causal blue oxidation formed by over-heating.) Hold on a moment, my throat is dry from all those scratchy words going through. A common bench grinder would run at 3450 r.p.m. with a six inch wheel, so it is running at 90.32 surface feet per second, and at that speed it will "burn" steel at a blink. A low-speed grinder at 1750 r.p.m. is a bit over half that speed and is safer, obviously, but you can still burn if you aren't careful. I use a handcranked wheel that I seem to crank typically around 800 r.p.m. but with a slightly larger wheel, so figure in the neighborhood of 25 f.p.s.; at that speed I will burn the steel if I get careless when I am near the edge, but it is generally pretty safe. A Tormek with a speed of 90 r.p.m. and a new wheel size of 10" will be running at just 4 f.p.s. And you can get variable-speed grinders that will go all the way down to 0 rpm. With some standard grinders you can put a rheostat on the power cord and get variable speed, but with others the rheostat just acts as an on/off switch. I couldn't find any consensus on how fast belt sanders move. I was thrown for a moment by a statement about a "blazingly fast" sander that went 12 feet per second, but it turned out that was referring to the speed of the whole sander in a belt sander race (I don't know if that was a stock sander or a custom sander--- the rules are different for the two). On the other hand, I saw one reference to a belt sander running around 5100 f.p.s., which is a pretty scary idea (imagine a 6" bench grinder running at 200,000 r.p.m.). Still, if you retain your manual it may tell you if your belt sander runs faster than a common bench grinding wheel's 90 f.p.s., in which case it damned well will burn steel, or slower than my handcranked 25 f.p.s., in which case it would be relatively safe. Another big variable is grit size. A coarse grit causes less friction because there is less grit in contact with the steel, and also the coarse grit tears off large chunks of steel which carry a lot of heat with them. So for grinding a tool you use a coarse wheel (or sander) for as much of the work as possible, keeping the steel cooler, and switch to a fine one (which generates more friction) only if you have to, and for as short a time as you can. You can get coarse and fine grits for either a grinding wheel or a sanding belt, so you can't say without qualification that a wheel is less prone to burn than a belt based on coarseness. You get, in practice, more choice of grits with one belt sander than one bench grinder; but I rarely feel a need for more than one coarse wheel for grinding the primary bevel, so what does that matter? (I do also have, and rely heavily on, a Makita turntable-style water-cooled 1000-grit powered hone, which sales documents usually call a grinder or grinding wheel, though it isn't). For what its worth, the current preference of most hand knifemakers seems to be belt sanders and grinders, not wheels. Myself, I would worry less about burning the steel with a belt sander, and more about rounding over your flat surfaces and sharp arrises, especially on a small, narrow tool like a dovetail chisel, and also if there is any slack in the belt. That's theoretical, though, not the product of experience. And, again for what its worth, I've recently reground half-a-dozen 4" socket chisels to be 1/16" narrower so that I would have widths by sixteenths from 1/8" to 1". I used a handcranked grinding wheel, freehand, and it wasn't hard or even all that time-consuming. No trouble at all with burning the steel. You shouldn't have any trouble turning a triangular file into a tiny chisel, no matter what kind of grinding set-up you use, provided the speed is low and the grit is coarse. And if the speed is fast and the grit fine you will have the danger of overheating, whether you use a grinding wheel or a sanding belt. Tom Conroy Berkeley ------- Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2012 05:41:21 -0500 From: John Holladay Subject: Re: [OldTools] over-heating hardened steel I often use a 6"x48" stationary belt sander for some grinding operations. I can honestly say that it IS entirely possible to overheat steel with it. I'm not sure about the rpm our fps speeds of my sander, but I have "blued" some steel with it before. In my experience, the finer the grit of the belt, the greater the tendency to overheat. As a general rule, I keep a 100 or 80 grit belt on mine and that does not seem to be a problem. Once I played around with a 180 grit and I almost really damaged one of my favorite chisels. Doc ------- Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2012 11:04:24 -0400 From: "Cliff Rohrabacher, Esq" Subject: Re: [OldTools] over-heating hardened steel I think the discussion about removing carbon from steel is in error. An anneal draws the temper and stresses from steel. It's best done in a manner that allows one to go from the critical temperature for whatever steel is being annealed (each tool steel is different) and ramped slowly down over a long period. There are specifications for annealing any given each steel, but as a DIY process tossing it in the coals of a good hot fire and letting it soak a while and then cool down over night is usually sufficient. Heat treating steel does not introduce carbon; it rearranges the crystalline structure. Hell, not all tool steels rely on carbon at all for their heat treat reaction. You can add carbon to the surface of mild steel using any of the case hardening compounds but that's just a case treatment. If you want to see what kind of steel you have take it to a grinder. Spark testing steel on any grinding wheel can tell you what type of steel you have and if it is one of the tool steels, you can determine which one it is by the sparks alone. This is so because the alloys in metal give off different spark colors as well as spark patterns. This is one of the things that makers of fireworks rely on. Simply bring the metal to bear against the wheel and observe the carrier line of sparks that fly. It helps to dim the lights. More carbon = brighter sparks with more branching spark trails fanning oout at rakish angles between 30 and 60 degrees. More manganese = right angle branching More Tungsten = broken patterns Each alloying element produces a unique spark pattern and once you get to know them they are remarkably distinctive one from another. Cast iron gives a dull red carrier line with no secondary bursts of white hot sparks. Wrought iron is a little brighter and may show traces of carbon. Mild Steel has branching hot sparks from the carbon. O1 has lots of carbon and thusly a very exciting carrier trail with lots of branchings each with hot white sparks that fan out at angles from the carrier trail of around 30 - 60 degrees. High-speed tool steel shows occasional carbon sparks but the other alloying elements most of which are not carbon, give off an orangey color and the sparks show at different levels of brightness and are somewhat broken up. Manganese steel gives off spark branchings that travel at right angles to the carrier trail. Air hardening steel shows some manganese spark branchings but the tungsten breaks it all up making the patterns irregular. If you know the elements in the metal you can use them to learn the different spark patterns and colors. Once you learn them you will always be able to tell which steel is which by taking it to the grinder. ------- Steel Question... [taigtools] Posted by: "Mars Bonfire" mbonfirex~xxhotmail.com Date: Mon May 28, 2012 2:42 pm ((PDT)) I would like to make a screw shearing cutter (along the same function as provided on many electricians' crimp tools) for cutting 4-40 through 10-32 screws. I would fab the cutter pieces using my taig cnc mill. I have cut my share of aluminum, brass and machinable stainless and 12L14 but know virtually nothing about steel that would be millable but could be hardened to made a shearing tool and about the hardening process itself (air cooling, water cooling oil cooling, case hardening...all a blur). Any pointers to info on steel selection and hardening process that can be done in a home workshop and using something not too exotic for steel much appreciated. TIA. Steve ------- Re: Steel Question... Posted by: "Dean" deanofidx~xxyahoo.com Date: Mon May 28, 2012 3:40 pm ((PDT)) Hi Steve; Use O-1 or W-1 tool steel. Either of these can be hardened easily in the home shop, and are machinable on your Taig machines. They come in an annealed state so you can cut them, and once you get the shape you want, harden and temper them. Check this page for some examples: http://www.onlinemetals.com/merchant.cfm?id=268&step=2&showfrac=yes&t op_cat=1354 Of the hardening steps you mentioned, oil hardening and water hardening are the easiest to do. Forget case hardening if you want a tool that will last a while. All that does is make a hard skin on the steel, leaving the inside soft, and cutting edges are soon deformed. Oil and water hardening make very hard tools through and through. You need a propane torch, (maybe two) depending on how big your piece is that needs to be hardened, plus your cooling medium of water or oil, depending on the kind of steel you get. I've gone through the hardening steps a few times on my webpages. I'll go look up some of my links if you want to read about it. Dean ------- Re: Steel Question... Posted by: "Paul J. Ste. Marie" taigx~xxste-marie.org Date: Mon May 28, 2012 4:30 pm ((PDT)) I lost my old Radio Shack crimpers that had that feature, and I haven't been able to find a replacement. It was really handy. I don't think the old RS tool I had was hardened, and it worked fine. Roughly 1/8" steel. You could use O-1 or W-1 steel, which (at least in the form of drill rod) do work very nicely, but I've never tried to harden those. ------- Re: Steel Question... Posted by: "Mars Bonfire" mbonfirex~xxhotmail.com Date: Mon May 28, 2012 4:46 pm ((PDT)) Dean, Thanks for info. Absolutely will read anything you have written about the process. Steve ------- Re: Steel Question... Posted by: "Ken Cline" clinex~xxfrii.com Date: Mon May 28, 2012 5:28 pm ((PDT)) I'll read it, too. I assumed a forge was needed, but I love heating metal with a torch! ------- Re: Steel Question... Posted by: "Stan Stocker" skstockerx~xxcomcast.net Date: Tue May 29, 2012 4:56 am ((PDT)) Hi Steve, Ground steel plate in oil or water hardening flavors is available from Enco, MCS, all the usual suppliers. If you are going to make a bench shear style all you need to do is drill and thread for the screws, then pivot a piece with a shear profile on that piece. You can make the handle out of just about anything that is strong enough. If you intend to shear a lot of screws, the added cost of A2 may be justified. In plate stock, oil hardening steel has given me less trouble with warping than water hardening. I've never had any warping issues with A2. [Corrected statement from a later message.] A2 is lovely to work with, but is considerably more expensive than water or oil hardening stock. For some design ideas, have a look at: http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/topages/screwboltshear.php more conventional bench shear: http://www.clock-keys.com/CART/images/32124.jpg and of course the scissors style hand tool you already mentioned. For an overview and catalog selection of flat stock, the Enco online catalog is pretty complete. The drill rod and flat stock section starts with a good overview of material properties at: http://www.use-enco.com/CGI/INPDFF?PMPAGE=768&PMCTLG=00 Take care, Stan ------- Re: Steel Question... Posted by: "Mars Bonfire" mbonfirex~xxhotmail.com Date: Tue May 29, 2012 7:25 am ((PDT)) Stan, Thanks for the info. I had seen the guillotine device ($100)... looks very nice but a bit pricey and not half as much fun as building one and learning about hardening. I had not seen the shear version before. My plan was to make a shear/rotary design...like a beefier electrician's crimp tool screw sheer. I don't cut a lot of screws but seems like I have the wrong length screw for every project I take on and it seems like an interesting project. Thanks to everyone who has responded to my inquiry. Also, I tested (informally, with a file) the hardness of the electrician's crimp tool and it is definitely hardened! Steve ------- Re: Steel Question... Posted by: "Dean" deanofidx~xxyahoo.com Date: Tue May 29, 2012 10:52 am ((PDT)) Steve, here's a link to one of my pages about making tools. About 2/3 of the way down the page you'll see a picture of a propane torch, and the instructions for hardening O-1 steel follow that picture. http://www.deansphotographica.com/machining/projects/mill/cbore/cbore.html That page is for doing O-1, which is oil hardening tool steel. You can use the same instructions if you buy W-1, (water hardening steel), but use water in place of the oil mentioned in the article. Dean ------- Re: Steel Question... Posted by: "Mars Bonfire" mbonfirex~xxhotmail.com Date: Tue May 29, 2012 11:13 am ((PDT)) Perfect. Off to read your site. Just ordered a bar of O1 for a scissors style design. Now for some beginner's luck and I should be all set. Thanks, Steve ------- Re: Steel Question... Posted by: "Mars Bonfire" mbonfirex~xxhotmail.com Date: Tue May 29, 2012 11:28 am ((PDT)) Dean, Just read the page. Perfect. A few of quick questions and that should end the thread: * Your opinion on the tempering temperature (color) for my scissors style steel screw shear? More tempered than your bore cutter (beyond straw?? More chisel like tradeoff - temper vs. hardness? * I take it you can temper in a kitchen oven instead of looking at the color and using a torch. Any thoughts on that approach? * I have read that you need to temper IMMEDIATELY after hardening...how immediate is immediate? I take it if you don't, very very bad things happen ;^) Sounds like your process results in a delay of maybe 15 to 30 minutes (to polish and prepare)? Otherwise, ready to go once I get the steel. Thanks, Steve ------- Re: Steel Question... Posted by: "Ken Cline" clinex~xxfrii.com Date: Tue May 29, 2012 12:09 pm ((PDT)) Here's a page discussing O1 hardening and tempering, complete with simplified steel phase diagram and color temperature chart: http://www.threeplanes.net/toolsteel.html There is also a hardness vs tempering temperature chart and some discussion of tempering for different uses, though no specific answer to your question. I temper piano wire springs in my toaster oven. It seems like it is mostly a matter of getting the spring evenly up to temperature (on broil for springs, you will want a lower temp for cutting tools), and then letting it cool. The quickest way to temper the steel may be using your torch. See the discussion here http://www.technologystudent.com/equip1/heat1.htm ------- Re: Steel Question... Posted by: "Dean" deanofidx~xxyahoo.com Date: Tue May 29, 2012 12:13 pm ((PDT)) Hi Steve; > * Your opinion on the tempering temperature (color) for my > * scissors style steel screw shear? Straw to purple-blue should be fine. The purple-blue color is easier to achieve, and still should be plenty hard for shearing the small screws you are talking about. It is also tougher than a straw temper. > * I take it you can temper in a kitchen oven I do that when I have time to plan ahead. Sometimes I need a tool right away, so need to temper in a flame, but if I know I need something beforehand, I use my toaster oven. If you temper in flame, you should dunk your tool as soon as it reaches the color you want, to stop it at that point. If you temper in an oven, you don't need to quench, since the oven will only get as hot as you set it. If you use an oven, wrap your pieces in some de-greased steel wool, and then wrap that in aluminum foil. This will help the piece to heat evenly for tempering. > * I have read that you need to temper IMMEDIATELY after hardening When you are doing this kind of thing in the home shop, you can't worry too much about those time limits. The suggestion to temper immediately comes from the manufacturer for optimum hardness and temper for a given use. It's not something that is practical or even possible in most home shops. Yes, it takes a little time to polish and prepare for tempering after you have hardened the piece. In a factory, these things are going along a conveyor belt, under flames, into oil, and directly into an oxygen controlled tempering furnace all in quick succession for making things like drill bits and taps. Just not possible for most of us home guys, or even in a regular job shop. I've made hundreds of cutters over the years in various shops where I've worked. We never had the control that a large factory has, but still produced good cutting tools, such as counterbores, gear cutters, and threading dies. All done by hand with a torch and watching the colors. I don't know of any "very very bad" things that will happen if you don't do the hardening and tempering steps immediately. There are only three things that can happen with this home hardening stuff: 1: You get the tool you want and it works fine. 2: Your tool is too soft, and dulls quickly. 3: Your tool is too hard, and the edge chips. Number 1 is what you want. If you get number 2, put on a new edge and harden and temper again. If you get number 3, sharpen the edge and re-temper. That's about it. Dean ------- Tempering related to steel question thread [taigtools] Posted by: "Stan Stocker" skstockerx~xxcomcast.net Date: Tue May 29, 2012 1:04 pm ((PDT)) Hi Folks, The idea behind tempering immediately after hardening is good, but with simpler steels like O1 and W1 tempering as soon as practical (within an hour or so in most cases) is good enough. More complex steels (A2, D2, S7, and others) tend to be more demanding both of the time/temperature controls while hardening and the need to temper fast. A2 and D2 can develop some fairly strong stresses that tempering relieves, even if you only temper down to RC62 or so. A2 can be pretty forgiving in thinner sections, but if you ever deal with thick sections there is little room for lallygagging between hardening and tempering. Take care, Stan ------- annealing /hardeneing [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: "Doc" n8as1x~xxaol.com docn8as Date: Tue Jun 19, 2012 4:39 pm ((PDT)) i answered a private e mail, but thot [thought] this may be of general interest ... hope so. you can anneal at circa 1450 for most steels ...use an a/c torch, forge, fireplace, whatever you have & after the temp is reached, plunge the end in lime, hot ashes, or sand to cool -- SLOWLY. this temperature to me looks like cooked carrots color...not cherry red ....if not soft enuf, repeat ....this is looking for a full anneal. if you get the temp up to a blue color, circa 575 then you have spring steel temper & you shud be able to work it, be easier yet if you get up to a dull red, maybe 1200 .....this annealing is the oposite of steel hardening ....which again around 145O for steels, depending, .... the shadows coalesce into a cooked carrot color, the steel becomes non magnetic & if quenched in oil /water, it becomes glass hard......it is heated to different temperatures to soften for various purposes .... 410 * or so for lathe tools, (light straw color); purplish for screwdrivers. chisels & purple blue for springs depending on thickness .... these colors vary w/ the steel & temperatures will too. w/ O-1 tool steel, which i use for making taps, reamers counterbores whatever, i put them in the drill press at 200 rpm & heat w/a torch, getting even heating & quench w/ a can of ATF or 10 wt oil, just bringing the can up into the spinning tool & that way quenching vertically, there is less warpage (& blowing out the flames)..if i am going to finish grind, like a reamer, w/ 0-1, i leave abt 10+ thou large, w/ W-1, i have needed to leave 20 thou +. & i quenched in brine .....i draw at 375 for one hour in the kitchen stove, .......insert when cold, bring up to heat for an hour, turn heat off & let cool ....i still keep a "banana-shaped" chamber reamer to remind me never to quench horizontal. hope this helps doc ------- [Subject is heat treatment of steel blades and torch setups.] Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2013 08:51:58 -0800 From: "Adam R. Maxwell" Subject: Re: [OldTools] new H&R planes On Jan 31, 2013, Trevor Walsh wrote: > The planes look really good, I'm anxious to get back to my set which I've been trying to build for over a year now. I've softened and rehardened some old irons with a torch, these were mostly in the #6 sizes. I will probably use charcoal and some forced air to heat the larger irons. Torch will do for the smaller. Though if you have multiple torches you can get enough energy to heat the bigger pieces of steel. < This matches my limited experience, in that I can anneal a 3/4" moulding plane bit with my propane torch, but can't get it to an orange heat. I tried with 1/4" W-1 square stock, also, and the flame is just toolocalized. Larry Williams says not to use MAPP, so now I'll have to deconflict his advice with what Jim and Wes wrote :). http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?193037-Heat-Treat ing-01-Tool-steel What size torch are you guys using with MAPP gas? My propane torch has about a 1/2" end, I think, and is mainly for sweating copper plumbing. thanks, Adam ------- Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2013 09:24:31 -0800 From: scott grandstaff Subject: Re: [OldTools] new H&R planes Beautiful planes!! Outstanding Adam! Even if you don't have mapp, if you simply set two ordinary torches up to face each other, creating a vortex, you can bring steel up to temp in a reasonable time. At least for smallish tools of reasonably thin section it works fine. Molding plane blades would be no problem. This was for a screwdriver, and you will want your plane blades a bit harder, but not much. http://www.wkfinetools.com/tRestore/techniques/heatTemper/heatTemper1.asp yours Scott Scott Grandstaff Box 409 Happy Camp, Ca 96039 http://www.snowcrest.net/kitty/sgrandstaff/ http://www.snowcrest.net/kitty/hpages/index.html ------- Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2013 09:29:47 -0800 From: Richard Subject: Re: [OldTools] new H&R planes Here's a video of a 1 brick forge http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qOqgVfgpvH0 Then go get a old toaster oven ($5.00 at Goodwill) to temper the iron in. I use this setup to make all my small knives. Richard L. Rombold WIZARD WOODWORKING 489 N. 32nd. St. Springfield, Or .97478 Take a look at my mess and work. http://www.PictureTrail.com/gallery/view?username=thewizz ------- Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2013 18:39:00 -0500 From: Trevor Walsh Subject: [OldTools] RE: New H&R Planes Larry advises against Mapp, not for the gas itself, but for the torch tip that commonly comes with them. In his experience the Mapp tip has a small focused flame which makes heating a large area evenly, difficult. To illustrate this point, I tried heat treating a blade with an oxy-mapp setup which only had a tiny flame. Oxy-mapp is very hot, but the tip size was too small to heat the part. With the right tip/flame it doesn't really matter what you burn to get the energy, unless say it produces an oxygen rich flame that starts to oxidize the metal. As for torch size I'm using the standard plumbing size. I really want one of those big jobs Larry uses on the propane BBQ tank. Trevor Walsh Furnituremaker and Woodworker TWDesign http://www.twdesignshop.blogspot.com ------- Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2013 19:23:49 -0500 From: "Andy Baughn" Subject: RE: [OldTools] RE: New H&R Planes When I heat treated the parts for the flintlock I have been working on, I used the gas stove to pre-heat the pieces then used the propane torch to heat them the rest of the way. When I made my purpleheart plane I made the blade from an old mower blade. I put some charcoal in a small flowerpot and put that inside a cinder block. Used the hairdryer to heat it up. Bad Andy ------- Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2013 17:12:08 -0800 From: "nicknaylox~xxaol.com" Subject: RE: [OldTools] RE: New H&R Planes I used a BBQ charcoal chimney the first time I got metal all thermo- plasticky. Buried a file in the charcoal, lit it and walked away. Michael S ------- Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2013 21:28:42 -0600 From: "Dave? Hahn" Subject: Re: [OldTools] new H&R planes > Larry Williams says not to use MAPP, so now I'll have to deconflict his > advice with what Jim and Wes wrote :). Nice planes. I think Larry's point was about the flame from the torch, not the gas. I have the bernzomatic torch with the hose. Not the cheapest. A cheap starter insulation is the two nested soup cans approach. Makes it go faster. Pics here. http://galootcentral.com/index.php?option=com_copperminevis&Item id=2&place=displayimage&album=lastupby&cat=0&pos=17&uid=433 First time you use it, you ignite any plastic coating which could be nasty but burns down quickly. See the archives for a more detailed thread including info on the plastic can lining. D? ------- Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2013 22:54:14 -0600 From: Wesley Groot Subject: [OldTools] Mapp, Propane all good. was:New H&R Planes Adam, As it happens Larry did his heat treat demo at Galootapalooza in 2006 and I just happened to take a bunch of pictures of it. Indeed, he uses a dedicated air-propane torch with a 20 pound tank attached. The handle and valve can be found new here: http://www.gossequipment.com/store/GossAirPropane.html Or for only $180 less you could get this: http://tinyurl.com/a3y22n2 Or use your own matches for less: http://tinyurl.com/a6srgjy (Disclaimer, I don't buy stuff at HD unless it's an emergency, but my hardware store doesn't have a website.) So like I was saying, every galoot needs a Mapp torch in his arsenal. Mapp because it's hotter, which equals faster. no other reason. Propane does the same thing, just a little slower. Larry uses his setup all the time and he hopefully wrote off the cost. In your case you would get by just fine with the HomeDespot setup and you could probably find something similar at the flea market for $10 or less. Since Larry says it ain't the gas that matters, you might like Mapp over propane because it's hotter and if you're only treating plane blades, it's going to work fine. Many people including me, use a propane torch *with* the mapp torch (or two mapp torches, or two propane torches. either way) to bring on the orange heat faster, but when you're just learning how to do it, you don't want to be in a hurry anyway. You want to watch the colors run, then turn black then turn cherry then orange and so on. Anyway. I'm not contradicting Larry because he's an expert, but if you don't want to spend a ton of money and you're not doing this all the time, like Larry does, go with a simple mapp or propane bottle. Keep your flame moving. Takes a lot less time to heat treat than it does to type this note. phew! Cheers, Wes ------- Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2013 21:33:52 -0800 From: "Adam R. Maxwell" Subject: Re: [OldTools] Mapp, Propane all good. was:New H&R Planes Wes, Okay, you guys convinced me :). In fact, I stopped at the orange Borg on the way home from work and picked up a Bernzomatic TS8000KC Premium Torch Kit (Mapp). I'm also not a fan of Home Despot, but the local HW store was closed, and I think they only had smaller torches. This sucker puts out quite a flame. I now have 4 irons hardened (in theory, anyway), and they're sitting in a 375Ës oven right now. Hopefully I remembered to wipe the WD-40 off after I brightened them, or I might be cleaning the oven too. Maybe tomorrow I'll see if I can solder the tangs without annealing the irons. thanks! Adam ------- Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2013 14:33:52 +0800 (WST) From: Peter H Subject: Re: [OldTools] Mapp, Propane all good. was:New H&R Planes Gents, From personal experience, the gas which comes with the 8000 kit - in the tall skinny bottle - is far hotter than their fatboy bottled gas, which in turn is hotter than the blue bottle. Since the fatboy refill and the tall skinny are not much different in cost,the tall skinny is by far the better value. PeterH in Perth at 38d C ------- Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2013 07:02:38 -0600 (CST) From: Steve Reynolds Subject: Re: [OldTools] Mapp, Propane all good. was:New H&R Planes > Indeed, he uses a dedicated air-propane torch with a 20 pound tank > attached. The handle and valve can be found new here: http://www.gossequipment.com/store/GossAirPropane.html [snip] Why is that kit so expensive? If it is the gauge, what is the need for a gauge? Regards, Steve -------- Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2013 10:47:47 -0600 From: Wesley Groot Subject: Re: [OldTools] Mapp, Propane all good. was:New H&R Planes Steve, If I recall, the kit that Larry used is designed to be everything you need to attach directly to the propane can, be it a 20 pound version or something larger. The propane in the 20# gas-grill style can is under a fairly high pressure. A gas grill comes with a regulator to make the proper pressure for the burners. And it's worth mentioning that a gas grill regulator does not work if you're making a propane forge, but I digress. Back to the smaller bottles: The "trigger" style static-ignitor is self-regulating off of the yellow (mapp) or blue (propane) bottles. You can't adjust the flame, so you hold the flame near or at a distance as needed. The simplest form of torch is the brass nozzle with a manual valve that you screw onto the bottle. Open the valve and light the flame with a sparker, or match or whatever is handy. Adjust the amount of flame with the knob, which is always better quality on older versions. Even though the trigger style is more expensive, the convenience of not having to light it manually every time you use it is handy if you're going to use it a lot. For occasional use, there's no real need for the fancy pants igniter. And regarding Peter H's post about the skinny bottles being a better choice; I agree. That's been my experience too. When I bring these to classes, I fashion a base out of steel to help keep them stable. With the trigger ignition on top, they are way top heavy. A square of steel with a small cylindrical cage to hold the bottle makes it a lot safer. Happy Torching! ------- Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2013 21:38:45 -0500 From: Bill Taggart Subject: Re: [OldTools] Mapp, Propane all good. On 2/1/2013 8:52 PM, Peter H wrote: > My TS4000 has a trigger, an on/off knob, and a trigger latch button. > It has no adjustment for flame intensity. The handpieces are not > interchangeable between the blue and yellow bottles. I know this > because I have both types. Since acquiring the yellow bottle with the > TS4000 handpiece, the blue bottle rarely gets used anymore. I believe, however, that torches that can be used with MAPP can be used with LP, although the reverse is not true, because MAPP burns hotter than LP. I looked up the TS4000 on line and found that is listed as being usable with either gas. I just a week ago acquired a TS4000 in cleaning out an estate. I was impressed with how well it works, so it immediately became a keeper! Bill T. ------- Date: Sat, 02 Feb 2013 08:20:23 -0500 From: "Cliff Rohrabacher Esq." Subject: Re: [OldTools] Mapp, Propane all good. I got a Bernsomatic with the flame adjustment knob for $36 some very long time ago. Since then the flame adjust has been discontinued but there is a Lennox torch which has all those great features and works with mapp or propane. Google: Lenox 21178-LT92 There are rip off specialists selling them for a hundred bucks but you should be able to get them for $75. Apparently the white Lennox brand paint is more expensive than the Berns-0-matic black because it is exactly the same torch. ------- Date: Tue, 05 Feb 2013 14:27:32 -0800 From: James Thompson Subject: Re: [OldTools] Mapp, Propane all good. was:New H&R Planes Adam R. Maxwell wrote: >> Do you guys use actual MAPP gas, On Feb 5, 2013, Cliff Rohrabacher Esq. wrote: > Only if one happens to have a rather old unused canister. They don't > make MAPP any more. Time for another good story. (Which, because my memory is going away fast, I may already have told, and don't remember it, and... where was I ????) Several years ago my son ran into a guy at the swap meet who was selling partially filled MAPP gas containers. Seems he had bought all the returned merchandise from HD and wanted to sell it. His understanding of the reason for the containers being partially filled was that people would buy a full container, use it for one project, then return it as faulty and get their money back. That way HD was paying for their MAPP gas. He had about 30 of these containers, and my son bought all of them from him cheap because nobody else was going to buy a partly filled container from him. My son had them stored thinking he would get around to using them but never did. Finally they came to me, and I have been using them ever since. I still have about 6 nearly full containers. I never realized that they don't make the stuff anymore. I use it in place of propane just because it's handy. Now that I know it is unobtainium, I will start being more conservative with it. And while this has nothing to do with that, I found it very interesting. Today at my carving club I was talking to a member named Jim who is 86 years old. This man is sharp as a tack, he builds and rebuilds computers, and lots of other things. Like I said, a VERY sharp individual. His doctor gave him a med which caused him not to think as clearly as he usually does and it made him sleepy. This is what happens to me about half of the time with a new med. When he told the doctor about it, the doctor changed the med, but wrote in his medical record that his confusion was Alzheimers. So the next time, when Jim went to a different doctor, this doctor read the statement that Jim has Alzheimers, and the world suddenly changed for him. Nobody said anything to Jim directly, but suddenly everybody treated him like a child. He of course read this in their manner and asked what was going on. It took some serious questioning to learn what that doctor had written, and now nobody wants to remove that from his medical record. I insist on reading every word they write before I leave. James Thompson, the Old Millrat in Riverside CA ------- Date: Tue, 05 Feb 2013 19:13:27 -0500 From: "Cliff Rohrabacher Esq." Subject: Re: [OldTools] Mapp, Propane all good. was:New H&R Planes He should sue. Things like this on your medical records will now be available to a whole unlimited endless parade of government bureaucrats whose motives and purposes are entirely outside the control of the victim of the wrongly stated data. I can think of a few purposes to which the state will want (in present time) to be putting any information that could in any way be used to deem a person less than competent thus abrogating certain of the person's rights under the aegis of some imaginary greater good. ------- Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2013 18:03:38 -0500 (EST) From: nicknaylox~xxaol.com Subject: Re: [OldTools] Mapp, Propane all good. was:New H&R Planes I'm always on the look out for the yellow MAPP gas cylinders at garage sales, even half full they last for at least an hour or two in the mini gas forge. I'm down to my last two, time to hit some more garage sales. Michael S. ------- Re: QCTP tool holders from mild steel? [myfordlathes] Posted by: "handy_wal" m_agnwx~xxbtinternet.com Date: Fri Apr 12, 2013 2:49 am ((PDT)) In myfordlathesx~xxyahoogroups.com, Haydut1200 wrote: > Any disadvantages if I make my own tool holders from mild steel to suit > the QCTP from A&R? > Martin Only just seen this question - no-one else replied so here goes. In a word, "yes". You'll be trying to clamp a very hard piece of steel in a "C" shaped clamp, and at the same time this tool is being flexed up-and- down by the cutting action as you engage & dis-engage the workpiece. Even if you clamp it really hard, what's going to happen inevitably is that the flexing is going to round-off the lower edge of your holder, on the face nearest the workpiece. On occasion you can expect your tool to work loose with possible disastrous results to your job. You'll lose rigidity due to no longer supporting the tool right up to the very end of the holder. If all you ever want to machine is very soft stuff, wood, Aluminium, tiny model-sized brass stuff, you could get away with this approach. If you plan to machine decent sized steel stuff, you need better holders. If you want to make your own, and I can quite see why, you need to use a mild steel that can be case-hardened. If you don't fancy case-hardening, then I'd suggest trying a medium carbon steel (0.4% to 0.6% Carbon) and oil-quenching from about 810-860 degrees C. Probably a good idea to temper at around 550-600C, as you want to avoid the clamp-action cracking the holder apart through being too brittle. Tempering will lose you a bit of hardness, but it will be far better than plain mild steel, which is asking for trouble and unreliability IMHO. Andy ------- Re: QCTP tool holders from mild steel? Posted by: "Haydut1200" haydut1200x~xxgmail.com Date: Fri Apr 12, 2013 3:45 am ((PDT)) Hi Andy, Coincidentally I was just uploading a photo of the one I made, but for some reason it won't show up. Shows a thumbnail but not the photo. I decided to make one, for practice with my little mill, though I previously made two others, which are more substantial, for a different type of QCTP. I did wonder if the front edge would be where the "weak" point would be, or the pressure from the bolts on the tool trying to bend the bottom of the holder, although I have some 2 and 4 way tool posts I made from mild steel that have been OK for a decade or so. The tool holders probably won't get enough use to worry about them getting worn, especially if I keep them for tools that aren't used so much. I don't have any way to heat holders enough to (case) harden them; I sold my oxy-acetylene gear in 2011 and regretted it ever since. I bought 5 holders from RDG. One didn't fit, and the height adjusters are all different sizes. I couldn't be bothered sending back the one that didn't fit as I knew I could make it fit with a bit of work with my Dremel. I would have bought some from A&R but it looks like they sold out again. It just occurred to me I could use the mild steel holder for my knurler as it won't have the same flexing as a cutting tool. Cheers, Martin ------- Re: QCTP tool holders from mild steel? Posted by: "garthn444" garthnx~xxpbt.co.za Date: Fri Apr 12, 2013 4:00 am ((PDT)) It's possible to get up to 1000C using a simple cheap butane torch - IF a "furnace" is built. I've used briquettes before and nestled the steel in a packed bed of them. The briquettes actually add heat... Otherwise the torch will never ever get it that hot. Although butane burns at over 1900C, the heat is dissipated rapidly. I made some wood turning chisels using HSS like this, they weren't great although they do work. I stuck them in the oven for an hour to temper (at 180C). That's about right for HSS but I don't know about mild steel. HSS is not actually easy to harden correctly. But just to harden a tool holder should be easy. I'm going to try three pieces of 20mm mild steel rod just to see what comes out - non-hardened, hardened and tempered, hardened only (eye protection?). Bang with a hammer afterwards to get some tactile feedback. ------- Re: QCTP tool holders from mild steel? Posted by: "Haydut1200" haydut1200x~xxgmail.com Date: Fri Apr 12, 2013 4:17 am ((PDT)) Garth, I suppose I could make a small furnace, but I'm thinking that by the time I've bought something like a Sievert blow torch and gas bottle, I may as well buy the tool holders - which I have done anyway. Unless you mean one of the blow torches that takes a screw on canister. Space is a problem, even for a small furnace, and I don't have any outside space to work, unless I do it in the street. :) Martin. ------- Re: QCTP tool holders from mild steel? Posted by: "garthn444" garthnx~xxpbt.co.za Date: Fri Apr 12, 2013 4:27 am ((PDT)) Hi Martin I quoted the word "furnace" - because briquettes (not sure of spelling) work ok. Nothing additional - besides some surface to put them on. I'm sure charcoal would work as well. Just put a few together to form a bed, then make walls one high, with a small gap between steel piece and the wall. You are just trying to trap as much heat as possible. Even try to build a "roof" if you want to. Try with and without briquettes (charcoal), you will be surprised... Fire bricks are another option. I've used the butane torch you mention - costs about 10 pounds equivalent here. Canisters about one pound each (R160 and R15). You are just looking for hardening, not something like a chisel edge - this will undoubtedly work. I know when quenching HSS (it can be done in water), there must be minimal delay - less than 5 seconds - to get the piece into the water - and it should be moved around in the water. So vice gripping the piece or something similiar is necessary. I bought a MAPP gas outfit, it puts out a lot more heat (it doesn't burn so much hotter but the output is greater, so it can keep the heat up better). Garth ------- Re: QCTP tool holders from mild steel? Posted by: "garthn444" garthnx~xxpbt.co.za Date: Fri Apr 12, 2013 4:34 am ((PDT)) I did my heating in my garage. Sheet of tin foil to avoid mess... I read "CARBON CONTENT OF COMMON STEELS: Mild steel: 0.4% carbon, Medium carbon steel approximately 0.8% carbon, High Carbon Steel approximately 1.2% carbon (this steel is also known as Tool Steel and includes Silver Steel and Gauge Plate). Mild steel and medium carbon steel do not have enough carbon to change their crystalline structure and consequently cannot be hardened and tempered. Medium carbon steel may become slightly tougher although it cannot be harden to the point where it cannot be filed or cut with a hacksaw (the classic test of whether steel has been hardened)." Seems like this is a dead end - silver/tool steel needs to be used. ------- Re: QCTP tool holders from mild steel? Posted by: "handy_wal" m_agnwx~xxbtinternet.com Date: Sat Apr 13, 2013 3:43 am ((PDT)) Garth, dunno where you got those carbon %ages from - no way is a 0.4%C steel a "mild" one! You can harden that steel by heating & quenching. Steels with 0.3%C or less don't harden enough for it to be worth the effort, so are considered "mild". (ref Properties of Engineering Materials by R A Higgins, standard Engineering undergrad reading some years ago.) E.g. Here's what I have in my Newnes Engineering Materials book: "The term carbon steel is used for those steels in which just essentially iron and carbon are present... Steels with between 0.10% and 0.25% carbon are termed mild steels, between 0.20% and 0.50% medium-carbon steels and more than 0.50% high carbon steels." (I wonder if that's a typo in the book - e.g. 0.22%C fits mild as well as medium! I suspect they really mean 0.25% to 0.5% is medium ...) Later under tool steels section is says "Where medium hardness with reasonable toughness is required, a carbon steel with about 0.7% carbon can be used. Where hardness is the primary consideration and toughness is not important, a carbon steel with about 1.2% carbon can be used." They're talking about water-quenching here, but in general it's good practice to read up on the precise steel you're using to see just what form of quenching and what temperatures are required. If I were doing this hardening & quenching myself, I'd reconstruct my micro-kiln which fits on my kitchen table - consists of 4 potters-kiln refractory bricks on edge to form a box, sitting on a one-layer bed of similar bricks on edge to insulate the table, this lot sits on a sheet of 3mm aluminium that sits on some 25x25mm wood to isolate the aluminium from the table. Carpenters clamps hold this lot in place. The lid is a single refractory brick which you can lift off by hand without danger of burning. It's heated with custom coil of Kanthal. The whole thing gets up to over 1000C using a 15V 25A adjustable psu. Perfect for small items like toolholders. Andy ------- Re: QCTP tool holders from mild steel? Posted by: "garthn444" garthnx~xxpbt.co.za Date: Sat Apr 13, 2013 4:07 am ((PDT)) Good info there - very interesting idea for a kiln too. I don't see that anyone can't do this regardless of space available. ------- NOTE TO FILE: The following message about heat treating was extracted from a long conversation about cutting an inside thread. For the rest of that discussion, look for a thread of the same subject starting Mon Aug 5, 2013 in the file here called Threading (Lathe and Otherwise). ------- Re: cutting inside thread [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: "Doc" n8as1x~xxaol.com docn8as Date: Tue Aug 6, 2013 1:58 pm ((PDT)) On August 06, 2013 Don Wilson wrote: > Check this out I made one [thread cutting tool] and it worked perfect http://madmodder.net/index.php?topic=3523.0 don ...nice idea.....have not seen the double cuttng edge before ....shud be great for OD & large ID, .......for small ID, i use a 1.4 in boring bar or one of several grond lathe bits i keep handy. FWIW i have a few comments, most of them learned the hard way utilizing a large scrap pile over the last 60 yrs .....by having the cutting edge below center, there is built in clearance, as you knew although the machinist you talked to apparantly did not. i wud recommend heating the tool in a drill press circa 200 rpm ...heat is even this way & when you quench, just raise up the can of whatever you are quenching with: ATF, sae 10 or whatever light oil if using w-1 drill rod.. ..this way the quench is even & warpage is minimal, (neck is where it is more likely & more devastating ...i keep a "bananna" reamer around to remind me .... particularly inportant for quenching reamers, but valuable for all )...of course if you desire to harden the shank as well, not sure why, but this obviously cannot be done. easier to see the color desired in a dull light ....everyone's eyes are different but cooked carrots is abt right for me .......also if you have a 3rd hand, the steel becomes non magnetic at the critical quenching temp. if using 0-1 which i prefer, i wud draw the temper at abt 375 in the kitchen oven for i hour, or if w-1, i wud do the same only at abt circa 415 ....drawing to a blue is way too soft (spring steel)...look for a straw color & quench in brine ..less chance of cracking at the neck.... possibly if your tool had been drawn, it may not have droken off, properly drawn, a file will still not bite, .....& it will be way less subject to breakage. best wishes doc -------- Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2013 09:06:07 -0700 From: scott grandstaff Subject: Re: [OldTools] hardening & tempering drill rod Hey Don. Last time I was foolishly drilling lots of identical handles (production work, kill me please). I first borrowed a D-bit from Mike Wensloff's missus. She is a turner and graciously loaned me hers to try for a day. It worked, but it was slow slow slow. I only tried it for a few minutes. I ended up taking a cheap imported 18" long drillbit and grinding a deep brad point on it instead. It cut just as well, and lots faster. Anyway, your camp stove, Mapp torch and regular propane torch will do you fine for hardening the end of your drill rod. Pre-heat on the camp stove at full tilt boogie. Just set up some kind of rest so you can place it in the fire and let it heat while you do other things. While it's heating, set your two hand torches up so the tips face each other and make a vortex of flame. When you get both torches well placed and lit so you can safely work without holding them, pick up your work with tongs of any sort, and start heating earnestly in the torch flame. You will have to work it over more area than just the tip. So keep it moving. Bright cherry red and, hold it there for a bit. Then quickly quench in your favorite oil. Temper as you usually do. Baking in the oven for an hour at 350 (while you bake a pie) is about right for me most times. yours Scott Scott Grandstaff Box 409 Happy Camp, Ca 96039 http://www.snowcrest.net/kitty/sgrandstaff/ http://www.snowcrest.net/kitty/hpages/index.html ------- Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2013 12:18:51 -0400 From: Steve Jones Subject: Re: [OldTools] hardening & tempering drill rod On Fri, Aug 30, 2013, Scott Garrison wrote: > > Don, I would google heat treating O1 steel or drill rod. It is pretty > > simple and easy as things go. I would give you a few links but when I > > googled it there were so many good ones I couldn't choose > > Take a look at Ron Hock's site too. On Fri, Aug 30, 2013, Kirk Eppler wrote: > Dang Scott beat me to it. Here is the link to Ron's info. > http://www.hocktools.com/diyht.htm I visited rosemill.com (linked in Ron's article) and saw both an anti- scale product and a case-hardening product. Not being a metal-head, I'm curious: The anti-scale product seems to be used in conjunction with the usual process of heating to cherry red and quenching; I get that. Is the case-hardening product used to superficially harden a tool that won't be sharpened, thus grinding away the hardened surface? No good for a plane iron or chisel, but maybe OK for a home-made drill bit? Inquiring minds and all that. Anti-scale: http://www.rosemill.com/v/html/msds/pbc_howto.pdf Case-hardening: http://www.rosemill.com/v/html/msds/cherry_howto.pdf Steve in Kokomo ------- Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2013 09:21:40 -0700 From: James Thompson Subject: Re: [OldTools] hardening & tempering drill rod About the best you can hope for in case hardening is about 1/64" of hard depth. If you do any grinding on it, well... ------- Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2013 16:17:27 -0400 From: Scott Steward Subject: [OldTools] Re: hardening & tempering drill rod Don, I have found that hardening and tempering O1 is pretty easy. For the hardening you need to heat to a red-orange color. For the size rod you are using I expect a propane torch should easily work. I typically use an air/acetylene torch. The temperature you want to reach is also the temperature at which it is no longer magnetic, so that can be a good check. Once you reach temperature quench in oil, I use canola. After the hardening I like to polish the steel prior to tempering so I can better see the colors. For tempering I like to heat toward the middle of the rod with a small flame and watch the colors develop and move down the rod. The colors will go pale yellow, yellow, deep yellow, bronze, etc. For your purposes you probably want to temper to the pale yellow color. Once that color gets near the tip of the rod quench it in oil and you should be ready to go. One other thing to remember is whenever you quench, try to stir the oil with the rod rather than just leaving it in one spot. Good Luck, Scott in Accokeek ------- Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2013 13:23:16 -0700 From: James Thompson Subject: Re: [OldTools] Re: hardening & tempering drill rod I have found that I like to temper my hardened steel in hot oil. Put a frying thermometer in the oil and when you get the oil to your desired temperature, put it in and turn off the fire. Wait until it cools before you retrieve your piece. No color involved because there is no air on the steel. No guessing at the correct color either. ------- Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2013 17:05:26 -0500 From: Wesley Groot Subject: Re: [OldTools] Re: hardening & tempering drill rod On Aug 30, 2013, Scott Steward wrote: > "Can you stick a magnet on the rod and heat til the magnet falls off??" GG's, Heating the magnet will turn it to dust if it's the 'fridge type. If it's a rare earth magnet, my guess is that it ruins it. Most guys tape a magnet to a pencil or dowel if it's small. Easier if you have an old speaker magnet just sitting around. It's more important to get the tool to non-magnetic, than it is to hit a color, since your ability to see the incandescent color depends on ambient light. Non-magnetic works even in direct sunlight. Cheers, Wes ------- Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2013 19:07:09 -0400 (EDT) From: nicknaylox~xxaol.com Subject: Re: [OldTools] Re: hardening & tempering drill rod I keep the rare earth magnet on a string that hangs parallel to the forge chimney. Before I start heating, I swing the stock past the hung magnet and get little mental visual on how close moves the magnet on its string. Then, when the to-be-hardened stock is red hot, move it to that same place in the air near the magnet till it doesn't swing. Really should change the string to some picture wire, as I've burned the string more often than I have ruined the magnet. Michael S-hoping to complete the propane forge this weekend. One of a Bay Area Galoots donated a stack of Freon tanks to use as a forge shell last BagA Thon gathering. ------- Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2013 18:28:31 -0500 From: Wesley Groot Subject: Re: [OldTools] Re: hardening & tempering drill rod That's genius. Never heard of that, but I'm going to copy it using bite tippet. (Fly tackle for toothy species, Jeff) Good luck on the new forge. Pics please when you're done. Cheers, Wes ------- Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2013 23:33:53 -0400 (EDT) From: nicknaylox~xxaol.com Subject: Re: [OldTools] Re: hardening & tempering drill rod Thank you. Its one of the rare earth fridge magnets, with the little knob on the end for the string to go around. Tried to epoxy a string onto a magnet. In retrospect, now that I'm thinking about it, could have sandwiched two around a string or wire, instead of stealing the one from the fridge. Lee Valley catalog Michael S ------- Date: Sun, 08 Sep 2013 20:04:56 -0600 From: Don Schwartz Subject: Re: [OldTools] hardening & tempering drill rod Thanks to Scott, James & others who offered info, opinions and ideas! I managed the heat-treating last week-end with the Coleman stove + propane & Map-pro torches. In the sunlight, I couldn't see the cherry colour too well, but the magnet trick seemed to prove I was done. I put a hard-drive magnet on a string (most come attached to a bracket with mounting holes), but found I had nowhere convenient to hang it, so resorted to an old speaker magnet. That proved a to be a good idea, because I realized that if the bit wasn't hot enough when I tested it with the hard drive magnet, I'd probably need another hand to separate them! The speaker magnet is a nice big heavy lump, and easy to shake off. The heating went fairly quickly, and the quench in a large can of canola was without incident. I probably used more canola oil than necessary, thinking that more would cool the bit more effectively than less. SWMBO and the grown daughter, seeing the extinguisher, fire pail and all, hid in the house for fear of what might transpire, but it was all anti-climatic. I got to use my grandfather's old tongs! The weather has been so good here this last week I couldn't bring myself to go to the cave to try the new bit. But today I couldn't wait any longer! As Scott says, the D-bit cuts pretty slowly. I have to withdraw it after a count of 10 or 12, in order to allow the shavings to fall out. Initially it was pretty tedious. I had mounted the blank with a spur centre on the headstock and the hollow centre on the tailstock end. That wasn't the best set-up, as I had to withdraw the bit all the way back through the tailstock to dump the shavings... I switched to my Handy Collet Chuck instead. That was much better, despite the need to re-center the blank. Next time I'll just start with that. Once the hole is started, the bit is somewhat self-guiding, so I could move the tail stock back enough to allow me to dump shavings without pulling the bit all the way back through the tail stock. And the hollow centre still gives some support to the bit, which is only 5/16in. Much better. For fussy or longer work, it might be better to have a steady rest (another project?!), but for short holes, I can do without. And -- here's the good part -- the hole is centered quite well, not wandering off to one side as dictated by the end-grain! Don ------- NOTE TO FILE: A discussion in the atlas_craftsman group began with ideas for making your own cutters. Then it progressed to heat treating options. I don't normally put a thread in two files, but I'll make an exception here. ------- [atlas_craftsman] Re: Wanted: resource re making cutting angles on tooling. Posted by: "Bruce ." freemab222x~xxgmail.com bakmthiscl Date: Tue Dec 17, 2013 8:41 am ((PST)) What I found most difficult about learning to grind lathe bits was that there was too much information out there! My suggestion is to skip as much of the instruction as possible and get people making tools -- out of mild steel! (Yes, I've said this before, but I think most people don't subscribe to my notion: You can cut a very effective tool from mild steel, providing the workpiece is soft, like 6061 aluminum. You will have to resharpen more frequently than with tool steel, but you can resharpen with a file!) The main advantage of using mild steel is that it is cheap, and the student won't be intimidated to get it right the first time: It simply doesn't matter if you screw up a few pennies' worth of mild steel stock! Now the other end of this is that there is MUCH too much complication out there for the beginner to comprehend. First of all, much of the information out there is for one-piece tools -- as opposed to the tool-bit holders most of us use. Then too, some tool-bit holders angle the tools and some do not, and the angles you need to grind to are completely different for the two different sorts of holders. Next, not all the features of the commercial tool bit are actually essential for it to do a very nice job of cutting metal. For example, the chip breaker is completely unnecessary if you're controlling the tool by hand (which I often do). The chip breaker breaks the strip of metal being removed from the workpiece so you don't get long, scrolling strips clogging up the works (or cutting up your hands, if you're turning steel). It's important in many cases, but not in all, and if you start the student by making bits without chip breakers, they'll soon learn what makes the chip breaker important. Even more elementary are the various relief angles. I really had trouble understanding this at first because the illustrations just didn't make sense to me. (This was odd because normally I'm quite good at envisioning 3D objects.) Eventually I caught on, but if I had to grind a bit to a spec right now, I'd probably really have to study it before I'd be sure of getting it right. OTOH, I've pulled a tool steel bit blank out of stock (the kind with the end cut off at maybe a 70* angle, rather than a right angle) and put it straight to work cutting 6061, without doing any grinding at all on it. If the corner is sharp and the bit does not rub the work, it cuts just fine. So why mess with all the grinding? Because in some cases, you must, in order to get clearance between the work and the bit. (You're not going to do much cutting if a flat of the bit is up against the workpiece.) What I'm saying is, start the student with minimally ground bits (of mild steel) and put them to work with them (on soft-metal workpieces). Next assign them a task that simply cannot be done with such a bit, and point out how they're going to have to refine the bit to be suitable to the task. All the best. Bruce NJ ------- Re: Wanted: resource re making cutting angles on tooling. Posted by: "Jim" jblake9042x~xxsuddenlink.net Date: Tue Dec 17, 2013 11:27 am ((PST)) Bruce, very good post. Right on the money. When dealing with beginners and novices in any en-diver requiring time to develop a skill the K.I.S.S principle is always the best route to success. JMHO jimb ------- Re: Wanted: resource re making cutting angles on tooling. Posted by: "Kevin Gibson" k3030aix~xxyahoo.com Date: Tue Dec 17, 2013 11:33 am ((PST)) Or you could make the tool out of something like 01 drill rod that is annealed, grind it how you like it and then heat treat it by heating the cutting edge to cherry red, then oil quench. Should give you a RC in the high 80's to low 90's. If worried about it being too brittle, you can then draw temper it, and there are a number of ways to do that; Machinery's Handbook has all the details. I use either the oil/smoke method, which is just to coat the part in oil and then torch it until all the oil burns off. Or you can use something like nitre bluing to heat it to a controlled temperature between 600-800 degrees. ------- Re: Wanted: resource re making cutting angles on tooling. Posted by: "Gene" gene_isley_7x~xxyahoo.com Date: Tue Dec 17, 2013 12:29 pm ((PST)) Reading the article discussing Harding steel. I make gun parts including springs. I heat sthe parts to a temp where the part loses magnetism, then quench in oil. To temper I throw the part in a lead pot of pure lead for 15 mins. This works well for me. Burning the part in oil works but neighbors don't like it. This method was used by old gun smiths. ------- Re: Wanted: resource re making cutting angles on tooling. Posted by: "Kevin Gibson" k3030aix~xxyahoo.com Date: Tue Dec 17, 2013 1:46 pm ((PST)) Yes lead is a good medium for draw tempering, just make sure it's well ventilated. You can use lead for temps up to just a tad over 1100f. The niter bluing salts I use can be picked up at any hardware store as Stump Killer, cheap and easy. But the pot of molten lead will do the same trick. Kevin ------- Re: Wanted: resource re making cutting angles on tooling. Posted by: "James Irwin" jirwin1x~xxaustin.rr.com Date: Tue Dec 17, 2013 4:45 pm ((PST)) The success of this method depends on the temperature of the lead in the pot. The most accurate home shop way to temper is to use colors. Color changes come at narrow bands and are not dependent on many variables at all. Polish the part, heat it in a clean blue flame from a propane torch until you just get the desired color. Then set aside to air cool. If you over-do it, just heat red again and do it again. Jim Irwin ------- Re: Wanted: resource re making cutting angles on tooling. Posted by: "Doc" n8as1x~xxaol.com docn8as Date: Tue Dec 17, 2013 10:55 pm ((PST)) fwiw ..not sure what you are drawing the temper on BUT if it is metal cutting tools, all my shop made chamber reamers, counterbores, taps, dies, milling cutters are made form O1 drill rod....hardened at cooked carrot color when the shadows disappear, quenched in 10 wt oil, or xmission fluid warmed, & drawn at 375 for an hour in the kitchen oven... warm up the oven to 375, put the part in for an hour, shut the heat & let it cool...none have fractured nor chipped in use. surface feet / min must be held to 1/2 that of high speed. w-1 drill rod, for metal use, shud be drawn at around 415 -20, (lite straw color). round parts are heated to harden in drill press at 200 rpm ...they heat even * oil in a can is brought up to quench while drill press is running ...parts have less than 1/2 the ususal warpage this way ....(be ready to blow out the flash flame ..) quenching shud be vertical ....i still keep a reamer that warped like a bananna when i quenched it horizontally ... just to remind me. best wishes doc PS back near 50 yrs ago when i made flat gun springs, the thin ones were drawn to a purple, the heavy ones to a blue color...used w-1 drill rod then. ------- Re: Wanted: resource re making cutting angles on tooling. Posted by: "Kevin Gibson" k3030aix~xxyahoo.com Date: Wed Dec 18, 2013 7:12 am ((PST)) I forgot to mention, after the first quench, if you're going to draw temper, you should polish the scale off to where the part is bright and shiny. Then do your draw tempering. Btw, the Nitre Blue is just pure potassium nitrate (salt peter)...sorry, couldn't remember that to save my life yesterday. I had a minor surgical procedure done yesterday and was on pain meds for a few hours. That stuff makes me even more forgetful than I already am:) Kevin ------- Cutting angles on lathe tool bits Posted by: stevewatrx~xxhotmail.com Date: Wed Dec 18, 2013 5:58 am ((PST)) Thought I'd share this. For those who have not seen his videos, there is a guy, a HS shop teacher on you tube called Mr Pete, aka Tubalcain. He has a lot of good videos, and this one in particular is about grinding tools. He uses some large models to help illustrate angles. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hrDr4rYLiAk Regards, Steve W. ------- Re: Wanted: resource re making cutting angles on tooling. Posted by: "Bruce ." freemab222x~xxgmail.com Date: Wed Dec 18, 2013 9:32 am ((PST)) I've recently rediscovered the "oil smoke method" too, but I'd describe it a bit differently: Heat the tool to red (i.e., to non-magnetic -- which indicates a phase change in the steel) and quench in oil to harden the piece. (Veggie oil works fine.) Now heat the piece near the torch or forge untill the it smoke and "flashes" (flames). Quench again in oil, and repeat the torching/quenching a total of three times. By re-quenching the flashed piece, you reduce the chances of overheating the item and losing the temper -- i.e., softening it too much. By repeating the flashing, you reduce the chances of leaving it too hard and brittle. This approach works on relatively small things. I might use a different approach on jackhammer bits. Bruce NJ ------- [Subject is making the lock for a flintlock] Re: 4140 Steel Suppliers [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: "James Irwin" jirwin1x~xxaustin.rr.com jimirwin2001 Date: Mon Mar 3, 2014 4:39 pm ((PST)) On 3 Mar 2014, paulguenterx~xxatt.net wrote: >> For a hammer i would at least use 4140 or a higher grade. Go to a gun >> builder forum and ask what they recommend. GP On 3/3/14, "Ralph Reese" wrote: > The only parts that need to be hardened is the tumbler, and the sear. > For a flintlock, of course the frizzen also needs to be hard. I have > used drill rod (O1) in the past for the tumbler, as it was something > that I had in my scrap box. One could also use space age superalloys. But whatıs the point? Any hardenable steel will do just fine. Use what you have. If it makes great showers of sparks on a grinding wheel, it will do well. It may have to be annealed, no problem. Heat to red and put in dry ashes to slow cool. MUST cool slowly! Then forge/cut/file/grind to shape. Then harden. Heat to dull red and quench in water. Polish then draw the temper. Heat gently/slowly to straw color for harder longer wearing parts; shades of blue for springier parts. Tainıt rocket science. Folks have been doing this stuff for hundreds of years. Go to 4140 and youıll still have to do all of the above. Part of the fun is learning how to do this stuff. Jim Irwin ------- Re: 4140 Steel Suppliers Posted by: jmartin957x~xxaol.com Date: Tue Mar 4, 2014 2:26 pm ((PST)) Agree with the above except for two minor points. To get the steel dead soft, slow cooling as in ashes is necessary. However, heating to the transition point - red hot or where it no longer attracts a magnet - and then letting it cool moderately slowly will soften it probably as much as you need. Unless it's an air hardening or high speed steel, in which case the annealing, hardening and tempering steps are pretty much beyond the home shop methods. 4140 steel is sold in different states of hardness. You can get it soft, in which case you'll probably want to harden it before use. But you can also get it in the pre-hardened state. It will not be at its hardest, but will be readily machineable and hard enough for many uses. Plus, you won't have to worry about decarburization or distortion in the heat treating process. John ------- Re: hardening steel [was Re: 4140 Steel Suppliers] [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: "Doc" n8as1x~xxaol.com docn8as Date: Mon Mar 3, 2014 5:37 pm ((PST)) "Part of the fun is learning how to do this stuff"" AMEN ....... after that it becomes LABOR, mitigated by the knowledge that I DID IT MYSELF. the smiths that made these front loaders in the 1700 & 1800, casehardened mild steel or wrought steel ...carbon steel was EXPENSIVE to make...cheap locks were not case hardened & they did wear & "mush" ...as well as cheap import & SOME US pistol/shotgun innerds ...been into too many that way in another life. FWIW ...everone sees colors differently & it does differ w/ steel types ...i want to see a red almost like cooked carrots to harden .....some use the fact that it is non magnetic at the correct temp, but i have found the disappearing shadow line the most useful ...by the time i get a magnet & check, the temp has DROPPED.....heating w/ a torch, when approaching hardenening temp there is a shadow line appearing as part of the piece is near temp .......& when it moves & disappears, i hold for abt 5 sec' more & vertically quench ..if you miss & it's too soft, anneal it & start over ...i keeep a bucket of sand for annealing ...not as good as ashes, of lime BUT>>>>>.........it also helps me to do this in subdued light. 67 yrs ago, the old German gunsmith hardened V springs this way & drew the temper in a bashed in side of an oil can ..filled it w/ oil & burned it off ...sometimes nore than once...the POLISHED steel took the colors & when "right", no more flashings...then he put the spring in a vise & closed & opened the vise & said "der...you got a schpring or you aint". i find the kitchen stove to be fine for tempering ......& 0-1 to be a tad more forgiving & somewhat tougher when near full hard...(tempered at 375 deg.)......put it in for an hour at desired temp, shut it off & wait to cool ...longer for pieces thicker than an inch. best wishes doc ------- Re: hardening steel Posted by: "gene isley" gene_isley_7x~xxyahoo.com Date: Tue Mar 4, 2014 12:15 pm ((PST)) Doc, I like the idea of using the stove to temper the steel parts. I have been using a lead pot. I do not feel comfortable using the color method. I will give it a try. I made the hammer and internal parts of the prototype using files mostly. It took hours and hours but was enjoyable. I have made a couple of v springs and a couple of trigger guard types for under hammer lock springs using the magnet method with good luck but it may have been mostly luck. Looking at some old locks I have they show a lot of wear on the internal parts but the hammers are not burnt up. which raised the question of the quality of the steel on the old locks. Thanks again to all the good information the group has provided. Gene ------- Re: hardening steel Posted by: "Kevin Gibson" k3030aix~xxyahoo.com Date: Tue Mar 4, 2014 1:24 pm ((PST)) Again Doc is all over it... The drawing using the stove burner works well for springs; especially when it's an electric burner. And just like he said, put it in a vise, give it two squeezes. If it survives that, you have made a spring. ------- Re: hardening steel Posted by: "Bruce ." freemab222x~xxgmail.com bakmthiscl Date: Wed Mar 5, 2014 11:19 am ((PST)) I'm an amateur blacksmith. I don't harden and temper stuff much, but don't find it difficult to do. I recommend Alexander Weyger's book, The Complete Modern Blacksmith (3 books in one $20 paperback) for an introduction to practical blacksmithing. In particular, it gives at least three different methods of hardening and tempering. Well worth the price and the read. The best way to learn the heat colors is to try them out -- with a forge or very hot (e.g., propane-oxy) torch. You probably can't get the higher temperatures over a natural gas flame, but that doesn't mean you can't harden and temper using one -- I've done it. The magnet trick works. This transition, magnetic to non-magnetic, is sure-fire for carbon steel. (Remember that alloy steels may behave differently.) Get yourself one of the modern, strong, rare-earth magnets (and keep it out the fire) and you should have NO trouble distinguishing magnetic from non-magnetic. Like all blacksmithing techniques, you should know where your tool is before you start the heating where you'll need it! But with a little practice, judging heat colors is not all that hard. Remember to do it in the "dark" (dim light only) as the appearance of the colors changes with outside illumination. Sunlight is a killer -- I can't judge heat colors at all on a piece illuminated by sunlight. Heat colors are not dependent upon the material. At a given temperature, it doesn't matter whether the material is brick, steel, copper, or aluminum -- except the aluminum likely will be molten! -- the color is the same. I will probably get some argument about this, but you can ignore them. Small differences may result from oxide formation and other things, but "black box radiation" is a universal constant. Likewise, temper colors are not dependent upon the material -- provided it is metal and more-or-less shiny before heating. Temper colors are due to oxides forming on the surface as essentially clear layers, one or a few molecules thick. It is the thickness of the layers that determines the color, not the material. Prove this to yourself by dropping one drop of thin oil (like 10-wt) onto a puddle of water and watching the colors. Those colors are identical to the temper colors because they originate from the same phenomenon -- thin clear layers. They're likely to go in reverse order, however, because the oil drop goes from thick to thin as it spreads out on the water, whereas the oxides on hot (but not glowing) metal go from thin to thick. So once you learn those colors, and learn how they're named (easy -- they look like the names they're given), then you should have no trouble recognizing when a tool has "run to peacock" (not a recommendation). Running the temper colors gives you moderate control of the tempering and can allow you to keep one part of a tool soft, while hardening the edge. However, rate of formation of the colors can be critical. If the colors "run" too fast, you might not be able to quench the cutting edge fast enough to catch the heat. But read Weygers -- he'll give you the pointers you need. I may have posted here before that another technique for hardening and tempering is "flashing the oil" -- as the first poster above pointed out. Take any "ordinary" oil (I use polyunsaturated veggie oil), heat the piece to red, quench it in oil. That hardened it. Now heat till the oil first flashes, and quench it again -- and repeat twice more. That tempered it. The 3X "rule" is to even out the tempering, and is not magic. This technique hardens the whole piece more or less uniformly, and works wonderfully on tiny things, like needles. Bruce NJ ------- Re: hardening steel Posted by: "Doc" n8as1x~xxaol.com docn8as Date: Wed Mar 5, 2014 4:27 pm ((PST)) certainly agree on Weygers ...more than a blacksmith, ...a gifted artist / sculpter. two things ...if you quench W-1 in oil you will not get the full hardness of circa rockwell 65 .....water or brine .is a better quench although w/ oil there is less tendency to crack if you have left inside corners too sharp. second, tempered covers a WIDE range of temperatues & colors ...depending on what one desires, for what uses......one wud not get the same hardness w/ different objscts & thicknesses .....what degree of hardness does weyger desire w/ 3 flashes???..& is this for something maybe the size of a ten penny nail?....thinner? ....(been a long time since i read the book) ...do not know how much appeal he will have to the current generation since he built his tools from scratch & scrounge & so many today only want to BUY ...but it IS a great book, very complete. best wishes doc ------- Re: hardening steel Posted by: "James Irwin" jirwin1x~xxaustin.rr.com Date: Wed Mar 5, 2014 6:20 pm ((PST)) I think it was left vague and bears re-stating for the benefit of the newbyıs. The color of red hot steel is a radiation thing. The hot metal gives off light. The color of the light is directly related to the temperature of the metal. I used to work in aluminum extrusions. The ingots and extruded material would reach a noticeable but faint red under the pressure of extrusion coupled with the pre-heat temperature. Would quench almost immediately and you could only see it right at the die face. The color of steel during tempering is due to the fine layer of oxide growing at the given temperature. This is also a function of temperature. Tempering temperatures are way lower than hardening temps. All this about steel is strictly applicable to steel and its alloys, though. Some/most hardenable steel alloys are made to be quenched in water (brine, ice, are subsets of these.) Any steel with a modest bit of carbon alloyed in it will respond to this. Some are alloyed to be quenched in oil. AFAIK it doesnıt matter what sort of oil. Some are even made to be hardened by quenching in air. To temper any of these, again AFAIK, one must polish a surface and watch the oxide layer color change to ascertain the degree of temper attained. Other metals behave differently. Brass develops a bluish tint when heated to anneal it. This is important to those of us who anneal and reload cartridge cases. Jim Irwin ------- Hardening a spindle shaft [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: thehairsx~xxoptilink.us dhlh1984 Date: Tue Mar 3, 2015 9:13 am ((PST)) I have a question about hardening tool steel. I am wanting to make a new spindle for my 109 lathe. The question is about the bore for the 0 MT. If I drill the shaft for the taper will the shaft be more apt to warp when hardening. I can use a shaft without the MT but I would rather have it. Thanks David Hair ------- Re: Hardening a spindle shaft Posted by: paulguenterx~xxatt.net Date: Tue Mar 3, 2015 9:26 am ((PST)) David: Go and buy some machinable prehardened tool steel. It will make it easier for you. GP ------- Re: Hardening a spindle shaft Posted by: thehairsx~xxoptilink.us dhlh1984 Date: Tue Mar 3, 2015 9:39 am ((PST)) I don't know Gunther. I'm going to be starting with 1 1/4" turning down to 3/4 and 1/2 inch grinding and drilling 8" deep. That's a lot of machining for my little machines using HSS that's not much if any harder than the pre-hardened drill stock. Since the little 109 is so small I had thought of just going to one of the tougher alloy steels, But I don't know much about the way the other alloys machine. David Hair ------- Re: Hardening a spindle shaft Posted by: "Glenn N" glennsneffx~xxgmail.com sleykin Date: Tue Mar 3, 2015 9:56 am ((PST)) Why would you harden it? The originals I have seen are not hardened. ------- Re: Hardening a spindle shaft Posted by: paulguenterx~xxatt.net Date: Tue Mar 3, 2015 12:01 pm ((PST)) David: Drill rod is not the steel to use for your project. Do you have steel suppliers in your area that will sell you short lengths? 4140 is a comon steel that is used for projects like you have; it comes prehardened and is still machinable. Make sure you specify you want it prehardened and get it 1/8 bigger in OD than you need. GP ------- Re: Hardening a spindle shaft Posted by: dozierhcx~xxaol.com dozierhc Date: Tue Mar 3, 2015 12:21 pm ((PST)) Several steel suppliers seem to refer to 4140 that is pre-hardened as 4142PH. At least both Discount Steel and Online Metals (Thyssen-Krupp) call it that. Hank ------- Re: Hardening a spindle shaft Posted by: "Ralph Reese" ralphreesex~xxmsn.com boomerralph Date: Tue Mar 3, 2015 12:28 pm ((PST)) At 300 BHN it's going to be tough to machine on a small lathe. Ralph ------- Re: Hardening a spindle shaft Posted by: "James Irwin" jirwin1x~xxaustin.rr.com jimirwin2001 Date: Tue Mar 3, 2015 1:01 pm ((PST)) 4140 is not 4142PH. PH stands for precipitation hardening, a slow, special heat treating process to reach hardness/strength goals. Probably well beyond home shop means. Jim Irwin ------- Re: Hardening a spindle shaft Posted by: "Doc" n8as1x~xxaol.com docn8as Date: Tue Mar 3, 2015 5:38 pm ((PST)) if hardening w/ a torch, I wud use 0-1 & heat the spindle while running it in the drill press, abt 200rpm ....heats evenly & bring up a can of ATF to quench while still turning in drill press......made many chamber reamers, cutters & c/bores that way,.....vertical quench mitigates warpage ...& spinning in drill press heats evenly ...be ready to blow out the flame. best wishes doc ------- Re: Hardening a spindle shaft Posted by: lavern50x~xxsbcglobal.net genetoymaker Date: Tue Mar 3, 2015 6:00 pm ((PST)) Tool Steel can Grow or Shrink when Heat Treated. All can warp some so usually leave Grind Stock on for Grinding after Heat Treating. Water Hard Steel shrinks and OH grows. Air Hard Steel grows very little. This might be the type you would want although it is more brittle. Oil Hard is easier to heat treat and tough. Try 4140. ------- Re: Hardening a spindle shaft Posted by: "James Irwin" jirwin1x~xxaustin.rr.com jimirwin2001 Date: Tue Mar 3, 2015 6:09 pm ((PST)) 4140 is not a tool steel. It is a hardenable and very heat treatable structural steel capable of producing high strength or high toughness or many shades in between by careful heat treating. Tool steels are quite different alloys that are fairly simple to harden & temper for tool usage. It will not make good cutting tools, though. Look it up folks. All this info is available on the Onet. Use reliable info, though. Thereıs way too much 'opinion' out there. i.e. 'information' thatıs just plain not true. Jim Irwin ------- Re: Hardening a spindle shaft Posted by: jerdalx~xxsbcglobal.net jtiers Date: Tue Mar 3, 2015 6:24 pm ((PST)) Re: [atlas_craftsman] Re: Hardening a spindle shaft 4140 prehardened is not a tool steel. But it is a good steel for your purpose, will last much longer than the rest of the lathe. However, if I were you, I would instead, get some 1144 from mcMaster, or the equal elsewhere if you live in a "no ship" zone for McMaster. It machines very nicely, is suitable for spindles and leadscrews etc, and should be fine for your purpose. I would NOT harden the part....no matter what it is made from. The issue is that you are likely not equipped to grind to size, and hardening WILL distort the part, despite your best efforts. Maybe not too much for your useage, maybe much too much. Jerry ------- Re: Hardening a spindle shaft Posted by: thehairsx~xxoptilink.us dhlh1984 Date: Tue Mar 3, 2015 6:45 pm ((PST)) I would like to thank all who have responded to the hardening post. It seems that for this small 6" lathe I would be just as well off without trying to harden the spindle. I believe I would rather bend another spindle than break the cast headstock. I'm going to increase the diameter of the spindle at the chuck end so that will make it stronger, but I will also be boring the hole in the headstock larger to use a larger bushing and that will make the headstock weaker. If I don't try to harden it I won't have to worry about warping. Thank all who responded again. David Hair [later message] I think at present I am leaning towards not hardening the spindle. I will be making the spindle 1/4" larger for about the front 1/3 of its length and I believe this will make the spindle strong enough. With the larger step on the chuck end of the spindle I will be boring that side of the headstock larger also. I would most rather bend another spindle than have it break the headstock. ------- Re: Hardening a spindle shaft Posted by: thehairsx~xxoptilink.us dhlh1984 Date: Tue Mar 3, 2015 6:52 pm ((PST)) Jerry, I hadn't looked at 1144 stressproof steel. I like what I see in the property tables. Thanks, It looks like I will be checking my local supplier for 1144. David Hair ------- Re: Hardening a spindle shaft Posted by: "James Irwin" jirwin1x~xxaustin.rr.com jimirwin2001 Date: Tue Mar 3, 2015 8:31 pm ((PST)) Yes. Stressproof is a way better choice for a shaft. Machines great, too. jim ------- Re: Hardening a spindle shaft Posted by: jerdalx~xxsbcglobal.net jtiers Date: Tue Mar 3, 2015 8:04 pm ((PST)) I don't necessarily think that the idea of over-boring the headstock for a bigger spindle is a good plan. I had one of those machines, mine was a 109.20630, and there was not a lot of "meat' in the casting for over-boring and increasing the spindle size. I looked extensively at ways to increase spindle size, and put at least a 3/4" thread on it, maybe get an MT1 center in it. None looked like they were going to really be satisfactory. You gotta do what you gotta do, but it might be as well to let the machine be what it is. Maybe put a larger thread on the end, but not necessarily a larger spindle. Jerry ------- Re: Hardening a spindle shaft Posted by: wa5cabx~xxcs.com wa5cab Date: Tue Mar 3, 2015 8:07 pm ((PST)) I agree. It is unlikely that you have access to the line boring equipment that would be required in order to do a satisfactory job. ------- Re: Hardening a spindle shaft Posted by: "Gregg Eshelman" g_alan_ex~xxYAHOO.COM g_alan_e Date: Wed Mar 4, 2015 12:08 am ((PST)) Look for a thinner bearing, one with a larger ID that has the same OD as the stock one. It'll likely cost more but will preserve the headstock strength. ------- Re: Hardening a spindle shaft Posted by: "Scott Henion" shenionx~xxshdesigns.org shdesigns2003 Date: Wed Mar 4, 2015 12:13 am ((PST)) The stock bearing is only about 0.1" thick on its narrow end. I made a 109 spindle out of O1 tool steel. Never hardened it. I will say, you need to turn it between centers. When I pulled the tailstock away, the end moved 1/8" due to relieved stress. Personally, I would not waste much money on a 109 (unless it is the last version). The spindle is only one of its faults. HomeshopSupply.com used to sell a spindle with a 3/4" thread. They may still have some. Scott G. Henion, Stone Mountain, GA Craftsman 12x36 lathe: http://shdesigns.org/Craftsman12x36 Welding pages and homemade welder: http://shdesigns.org/Welding ------- Re: Hardening a spindle shaft Posted by: "David Hair" thehairsx~xxoptilink.us dhlh1984 Date: Wed Mar 4, 2015 2:24 am ((PST)) Since I have six 109's I intend to use 2 headstocks to bore the third on my best lathe bed using the Gingery method of boring. David Hair [later message] I'll be turning and grinding the spindle on my 12" craftsman. The 109 is where I started in machining and I love restoring these small machines. ------- Re: Hardening a spindle shaft Posted by: jerdalx~xxsbcglobal.net jtiers Date: Wed Mar 4, 2015 5:01 am ((PST)) It's a tapered sleeve on the OD, not that much to be done with it to make a larger hole through. Jerry ------- Re: Hardening a spindle shaft Posted by: jerdalx~xxsbcglobal.net jtiers Date: Wed Mar 4, 2015 5:00 am ((PST)) Actually, that is NOT MY reason for avoiding the idea. It is perfectly possible to devise a good plan for boring, using either a larger lathe for the job (found elsewhere, presumably) or fixturing using the existing rear bearing and tailstock. My thought is that there simply is not the material to leave a decent structure. That, and the wisdom of doing all that work to make a frankenlathe out of a machine whose basic design is not in any way worth it. I had one and had wonderful ideas. I bought a bigger machine, and sold the 109 instead. Jerry ------- Re: Hardening a spindle shaft Posted by: thehairsx~xxoptilink.us dhlh1984 Date: Wed Mar 4, 2015 9:22 am ((PST)) Jerry, I think everyone needs at least one frankenlathe. I have five that I'm restoring abnd this is my first lathe so I'm trying to make it work the very best it can. I may sell it someday, but if do the complete story of what has been done will go with it. There is no way it will ever be worth what I'm putting into it, but I do think it will work as well as any 109 has ever worked and I enjoy working on it. David Hair ------- Re: Hardening a spindle shaft Posted by: jerdalx~xxsbcglobal.net jtiers Date: Wed Mar 4, 2015 8:03 pm ((PST)) Nothing wrong with that... Sounds like you have very realistic expectations, and are doing it 'cause you like to. I respect that. I do lots of things because I like to, even when they make no particular sense economically. I'm restoring a Metalcraft (Atlas made) lathe now... The thing isn't going to be worth that much when I get done, I am just doing it because I am selling it for a friend, and equipment restoration seems to be something I like to do. Jerry ------- Date: Sun, 03 May 2015 13:20:22 -0700 From: "Adam R. Maxwell" Subject: [OldTools] tempering W1 GGs, Do any of you have a good recommendation for tempering a W1 chisel? I broke a swan-neck that I made (possibly because I tried forging and heat-treating it again), but I'm not sure what would be a good Rockwell target for these. 1/4" square stock is what I'm using, and it needs to take some prying. Would 54-56 be a decent goal? http://www.speedymetals.com/information/Material71.html I'm not even sure I can get 600? out of the household oven! thanks, Adam ------- Date: Sun, 03 May 2015 14:16:54 -0700 From: scott grandstaff Subject: Re: [OldTools] tempering W1 600 is blue spring blue you are going to shoot for the edge of blue if you can bluish?? not quite deep cobalt blue is my point look at this picture close. see the colors?? http://users.snowcrest.net/kitty/sgrandstaff/images/oldtools/temp eringcolors.jpg see how the purple slowly moves to blue and then deep blue? you want purple with a little blue in it, if you can manage. slowly, and I mean slowly, heat it with a torch. work it very gently until it's all evenly "almost blue". quench it clean it up white again with crocus cloth or other fine abrasive and do it again same thing It takes at least twice in my experience. Not experience of doing it all day every day for 50 years. But far from, "saw it on a webcast from my cubicle or read it in a book once" experience, either. yours Scott Scott Grandstaff Box 409 Happy Camp, Ca 96039 http://www.snowcrest.net/kitty/sgrandstaff/ http://www.snowcrest.net/kitty/hpages/index.html ------- Date: Sun, 19 Jul 2015 12:45:50 +0000 From: georgex~xxgeorgesbasement.com Subject: Re: [OldTools] Hardening moulding plane irons in a furnace Hardening a plane iron in a large furnace is not recommended by this metallurgist for several reasons: (1) It's likely to become distorted; (2) It's even more likely to get decarburized (i.e., get a soft surface layer from oxidation of the carbon in the steel); and (3) Heat transfer is too slow, so the heating process will take much longer. Temperature control is far easier if the cutting edge of the plane iron is heated with a reducing flame and away from bright lights so that you can judge the color: cherry red for high carbon steel, followed quickly by quenching end on (with a stabbing motion) into cold water, followed quickly by tempering to a straw color, then cooling again in cold water, and finally, tempering a second time to a straw color. That straw color is best judged on the portion of the blade which was never heated in the first place. Never delay these tempering steps, even for a powder-room break, or a phenomenon called delayed cracking may take place. The double tempering gets rid of portions of the steel's grains which didn't completely harden in the first quench, but which transform after the first tempering step to a structure that itself needs tempering. I've tried to put together a coherent and somewhat more technical metallurgical explanation here: http://www.georgesbasement.com/Microstructures/LowAlloySteels/Les son-1/Introduction.htm There are several web pages of explanation and teaching involved after that introduction. M.I.T. doesn't give me a kick-back for this plug for my alma mater. At my 50th reunion I couldn't even find the lab where all this metallography took place the first time around; and only one of my professors of that era is still alive today. If you're concerned about decarburization, you can apply Kasenit (available from MSCDirect.com ... no financial interest) that will maintain the carbon on the surface so scary sharp techniques will continue to work after your plane iron has completed its hardening treatments. And you really don't need to use an oil hardening tool steel for one-off plane irons, because it just complicates the heat-treat process and results in a less hard, hardened steel. Plain ordinary one percent carbon steels get the hardest of all when given this double tempering process. ------- [Actual subject now is tempering steel after hardening] Re: Mill cut options [sherline] Posted by: dcclark111x~xxcomcast.net a3sigma Date: Tue Nov 3, 2015 4:05 am ((PST)) > I can harden tool steel in this size (i.e. to red hot and quench) but > I recently found that tempering (i.e. heating the steel to any colour > other than red hot) is problematic because I'm colourblind. Use temperature indicators. see: http://www.use-enco.com/CGI/INPDFF?PMPAGE=1073&PARTPG=INLMK3&PMIT EM=327-8899 David Clark in Southern Maryland, USA ------- Re: Mill cut options Posted by: "Stan Stocker" skstockerx~xxcomcast.net stanstocker Date: Tue Nov 3, 2015 4:48 am ((PST)) Greetings folks, Don't overlook your kitchen oven for tempering. I'll harden things while dinner bakes. Pull out the food, adjust temp, plop in the hardened work, soak as needed, and turn off the oven. In the morning you have cool tempered tooling. Not a high enough temp for all needs, but most of the stuff I'm tempering is being just pulled back a tiny bit, like A2 at 350F or O1 at 475F. Wrap in foil and put the packet on a brick if it's really thin section stuff so any temperature excursions don't over temper. Minor variations probably are less that normal variables anyway if you look at tempering tables they usually specify a temp with a 2 or 3 point hardness range. In the case of A2, in small pieces I know folks who don't temper at all and don't have any edge chipping issues. It isn't sexy, but it's easy and beats running colors. For punches I still run the colors as I want a tough punch body with a very hard face that takes a polish for most of my work. Best to all, Stan ------- Case Hardening with Kasenit [sherline] Posted by: chieftoolmakerx~xxearthlink.net glicker31 Date: Tue Nov 3, 2015 7:26 am ((PST)) There was a compound called Kasenit. Came in a black and yellow can. Just heat up your parts to cherry red. Roll them in the compound to fuse it to the steel. Quickly quench in water. Safety Goggles are necessary because the quenching causes popping and steaming. Repeat the fusing and quenching for a deeper case. There was a firm named Alfred Heller Heat Treaters. Well known in the greater New York area. That was our pro heat treater. Don't know if they are still around. Also, a firm named Heinzelman (Spelling?) Tempil Sticks (crayons) are great and accurate. I also have a set of files for hardness testing. Jerry G (Glickstein) ------- Re: Case Hardening with Kasenit Posted by: alanhyx~xxlive.com alanhaisley Date: Wed Nov 4, 2015 8:58 am ((PST)) Jerry, I think the maker retired or something. Kasenit is no longer available. There is a new product listed named "Cherry Red" that uses the same technique to produce the same result. MSC and others list it. Alan ------- Re: Case Hardening with Kasenit Posted by: "Ian Newman" ian_newx~xxyahoo.com ian_new Date: Wed Nov 4, 2015 12:06 pm ((PST)) Hi, In the UK Kasenit fell victime of health and safety legislation - one of its active ingredients is potassium ferrocyanide. See the COSHH info here: http://www.chemcas.com/msds112/cas/2206/13601-19-9.asp So it is dangerous if you eat it, inhale it, get it in your eyes, etc, etc - just like 95% of the other things in your workshop. It has been off the market for a number of years in the UK and has been replaced by other, more acceptable, compounds. Having said that, I bought a tin in the early 70's, have used less than 1/4 of it, and it still works as well as it ever did, so if you get the chance to pick up an old tin via ebay it would be worth the investment. All the best, Ian ------- ------------------------------------------------------------------ This is just one of some 80 files about machining and metalworking and useful workshop subjects that can be read at: http://www.janellestudio.com/metal/index.html ------------------------------------------------------------------