When looking for ways to make money with your metalworking hobby, you might find some good ideas in the Projects file. Many times a small business has started when someone finds a need, finds no suppliers (or no suppliers at a reasonable cost), and solves the problem him/herself. Eureka, there must be lots of others out there with the same need [customers]. Just remember to check out the patent situation. Doing a one-off car part for yourself might be okay. Making and selling that same part might be okay if there is no relevant patent still in force. If in doubt, or you plain don't know the patent status, invest some time in research to save much time and money in court. Another serious concern will be your legal liability if a product is involved in an accident or other cause of a lawsuit. While some messages have some ideas that "might" (not necessarily "will") help protect you, you really must get competent professional legal opinion and assistance before launching production and sales. If you got to this file directly from my HOME PAGE, return there by using your browser's back button. BUT if you came to this file as the result of a web search engine, see more than 70 additional files on my home page Machining and Metalworking at Home http://www.janellestudio.com/metal/ SAFETY WARNING BEWARE: DO NOT ASSUME that any subject matter or procedure or process is safe or correct or appropriate just because it was mentioned in a news/user group or was included in these files or on this site or on any other web site or was published in a magazine or book or video. Working with metals and machinery and chemicals and electrical equipment is inherently dangerous. Wear safety devices and clothing as appropriate. Remove watches, rings, and jewellery -- and secure or remove loose clothing -- before operating any machine. Read, understand and follow the latest operating procedures and safety instructions provided by the manufacturer of your machine or tool or product. If you do not have those most recent official instructions, acquire a copy through the manufacturer before operating or using their product. Where the company no longer exists, use the appropriate news or user group to locate an official copy. Be careful -- original instructions may not meet current safety standards. Updated safety information and operating instructions may also be available through a local club, a local professional in the trade, a local business, or an appropriate government agency. In every case, use your common sense before beginning or taking the next step; and do not proceed if you have any questions or doubts about any procedure, or the safety of any procedure. Follow all laws and codes, and employ certified or licenced professionals as required by those laws or codes. Hazardous tasks beyond your competence or expertise should also be contracted to professionals. Let's be really careful out there. (c) Copyright 2003 - 2007 Machining and Metalworking at Home The form of the collected work in this text file (including editing, additions, and notes) is copyrighted and this file is not to be reproduced by any means, including electronic, without written permission except for strictly personal use. ======================================================================= Date: Mon, 01 Jan 2001 18:25:30 -0700 From: "Les Grenz" Subject: Re: Of all the Taig CNC mill owners..... From: Sent: Monday, January 01, 2001 12:27 PM >> I am interested to see if any of you are using your Taig CNC mill >> to make a profit Tom Benedict wrote: > How many of you have ever charged for your work? Good subject. I do charge for work at times. I do some wheel and pinion cutting for several clock repair shops. Since they are reselling the work I feel I should charge for my work. Machinery is expensive and if my hobby can partially support itself so much the better. I also do some gear cutting for model railroaders making replacement gears for locomotives that cannot be purchased. I also do work for a microscope repair business making miscellaneous gizmos. I find if I am not careful I can be buried with freebee work leaving no time for my own projects. As far as charging for my work I determine the amount of time required for the job and quote $25 per hour. That is far below regular job shop rates. I do not compete for business with the job shops in town because the jobs I do would be refused by a commercial shop. $25 per hour is not much money for the work performed and yet is adequate to drive off the leeches. Of course I never charge good friends. I meet with a group of home machinists and all of us will gladly assist each other. Regards from Les Grenz & the Queen City of the Rockies. AWI 18150 NAWCC 82932 ------- Date: Tue, 02 Jan 2001 08:25:39 -0800 From: James Eckman Subject: Re: working I and other people have used my Taig lathe for various purposes like thinning screw heads and milling out a very small connector prototype. Most regular shops don't seem to be well set up for really small work, so there may be a niche market in your area. Also make sure that you know your limitations and don't overcommit. And don't quit your daytime job ;) Jim Eckman ------- Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2001 14:25:36 -0600 (CST) From: Tom Benedict Subject: Re: Re: working On Tue, 2 Jan 2001, James Eckman wrote: > I and other people have used my Taig lathe for various purposes like > thinning screw heads and milling out a very small connector prototype. > Most regular shops don't seem to be well set up for really small work, > so there may be a niche market in your area. That's kinda what I'm looking at right now, but in a limited sense. Actually, lemme describe the situation and get everyone's feedback on it. Here's the scoop: My wife got me a radio controlled sailboat kit as a present. Being the kind of guy I am, I can't leave anything alone, even a kit. Turns out there are lots of modifications people do to this one particular kind of sailboat, so I'm in hog heaven. I'm replacing the kit's heavy mast and boom with carbon fiber spars (legal, according to the class rules), rigging new servo mounts, servo arms, fairleads, chainplates, etc. One of the gotchas with replacing the spars is that the kit's fittings no longer work. The carbon fiber spars are MUCH smaller and stiffer, so the requirements for the mast and boom fittings are completely different from the ones that came with the kit. So I designed a new set. It comes out to about 18 mast, boom, and jib club fittings, plus three chainplates on deck, two fairleads, one servo arm, and a bunch of other minor stuff. I had a choice when I was designing them. On the one hand I could make them very functional, very PRETTY, kinda tedious to make, and make a single one-off set for my boat. On the other hand I could make them very functional, only slightly less pretty (hey, what's not pretty about brushed aluminum on carbon fiber), semi-mass-produceable, and make mine as a prototype set, with the option to crank out as many as I like later on. The bulk of the time on the first option would be spent at the machine. The bulk of the time on the second option would be spent working and re-working CAD files to make them quick to make, making jigs and fixtures, etc. I took the second route. If these things give me a competitive edge (har), there's the possibility that other people might be interested in getting a set made for them. I'm trying to make it so an entire set of fittings can be made with at most three jigs and only a handful of tool changes per jig. Figure a couple of hours of machine time, tops. I'm also trying to arrange things so that most of that machine time is long stretches of CNC work so that I can do other things while it's working. How would you price these out? By the time I'm done I'll probably have several tens of hours tied up generating the toolpaths, making the jigs, etc. The shop time, per set, will be a few hours at most. The total number of customers should be well under 100. > Also make sure that you know your limitations and don't overcommit. It's that overcommit bit that keeps kicking me in the butt. That's why I opted to set these up to make them as straightforward as I could. If someone DOES want a set, I'd like it to not put a knot in my stomach. > And don't quit your daytime job ;) Are you kidding?! My daytime job is what supports my habit! Err... HOBBY! My hobby. That's my story and I'm sticking to it. ;) Tom ------- Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2001 11:53:52 -0800 From: "Nicholas Carter and Felice Luftschein" Subject: Re: Of all the Taig CNC mill owners..... [taigtools] From: Sent: Monday, January 01, 2001 12:27 PM > I am interested to see if any of you are using your Taig CNC mill > to make a profit Indirectly, I use the Taig CNC mill to mill out dies for hydraulic die forming of jewelry. The few that I have done so far are selling well. As others have pointed out, usually there are other steps in making a product. As for 24/7 production, I don't know. ------- Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2001 11:58:29 -0800 From: "Nicholas Carter and Felice Luftschein" Subject: Re: Of all the Taig CNC mill owners..... > ----Original Message Follows---- > From: Tom Benedict > Reply-To: taigtoolsx~xxegroups.com > To: taigtoolsx~xxegroups.com > Subject: Re: [taigtools] Of all the Taig CNC mill owners..... > Date: Mon, 1 Jan 2001 17:02:10 -0600 (CST) > How many of you have ever charged for your work? I charge for work all the time. I have made a number of tools and jigs with the Taig and sold them to other craftspeople at the market I do. I also machine part of the index plate kits I make on the Taig. On My jet 920, which many people deride, I have made back at least twice the cost of the lathe by spinning aluminum parts for another craftsperson. The main thing is to get good at estimating time, and make sure you get from $25-$50 an hour for your work. The biggest job was making a grinding jig for my best customer, it was about 15 hours of work, I got $500, all material was scrap, and I used every machine in my shop, including the shaper. ------- Date: Tue, 02 Jan 2001 19:20:05 From: batwingsx~xxi-plus.net Subject: Re: Of all the Taig CNC mill owners..... At 06:25 PM 1/1/01 -0700, you wrote: >How many of you have ever charged for your work? Isn't this question a bit naive? The country was built on honest labor and expectation of fair return. Of course that includes a lot of twisting on the theme but it's still valid. Skilled machinists draw salary in range of $14-25/hr. Shops which have to support fixed expenses usually charge twice or more as much as the upper figure. I've seen bike shops charge that and motorcycle and auto dealers would laugh at less. Sure you don't have huge overhead with a little lathe in corner of hobby room but you do have an investment, and recovering it is perfectly OK. Not only that but your paying customers will in the end buy you new and bigger machines if you like. I've had a lathe for almost twenty years now. It paid for itself in a few months. Nobody I worked for expected to get the jobs free and except for a few close friends on occasions, nobody ever has. It's not only money out of pocket if I don't charge, it's giving away a slice of my lifetime. I can use that time to spend with wife and daughter, or I can use the money earned to farther their life's prospects. I'm semi-retired and losing money in stock market like everyone else now, and we have no big expenses. The shop rate is at $24/hr because we don't need much extra income and everything in shop is paid. But it's still income and can't ignore it. You guys shouldn't either. Maybe part of this is uncertainty about how to proceed with bids and biz. You can do it scientifically, perhaps based on your normal work rate, or you can set some figure that feels right to your conscience. I picked one I knew would compare well with other shops in area and in the nation. By now I can look at job and fit it into categories which I've done before. Usually I guesstimate it a bit high relative to the expected time, and I inform clients it won't go over that. Usually that's still far better than anyone else and I do rebate sometimes if I make a killing. For unusual jobs, you need to make an op sheet detailing everything that has to be done and guess each element in it. That can be quite detailed; I list things in increments as short as fractional minutes on long jobs or production. I add in special tools too, 100% of their cost even though I may use them in future myself. I don't include electricity, lube, sometimes materials (make a lot of stuff from scrap or salvege) and ordinary tools even if consumed. Where do jobs come from? Look at tagline. We get 100% of our biz from those three URLs and most of it from the first one. We don't even advertise locally, don't care to be swamped with college kids MC tuneups and there are plenty of job shops to compete with. I try to keep it centered on machining, esp specialized repair and renovation and mostly for racing. People give up hobbies last when times get rough! In effect we have carved a niche and it was based on activity I've been engaged in since '65, the motorcycles thing. But it didn't take that long; the URLs went up no more than a couple years ago and in the first part-time year cleared over $10000. You may not all have the same deep interest in a hobby or avocation and probably won't make as much on a Taig. But you should all give it some thought. Offering the pens some of you make, for example, or as I mentioned before, making parts for pen kits. Horology is another place to look for jobs. There's model-making; seems to be a big field itself. Many of these builders don't have their own machines. What worked for me is taking time to participate in discussions in groups in which I have deep interest. Once you come across as someone who is helpful and informed the URLs will do the rest. An example is this very list. I'm not into pens and clocks, but I do have a product that could be of interest to many of you. That's the CNC thing, either software or conversions. It's not the entirety of what brought me here or I wouldn't have been making suggestions about machining or even writing this note. For that matter I'd like to see you all into CNC and would support that for free to large degree; it's just so much more fun with complete flexibility of the software, instead of twiddling dials and scratch-pad calcs. >partially support itself so much the better. I also do some gear cutting for >model railroaders making replacement gears for locomotives that cannot be Exactly. I can program my mill to cut gears using routines invented for something else, or at worst make a little source code change. And if it's easy to make one, it's easy to make several. And that being in the same setup too, either as a stack on a mandrel or in the solid bar, to be sliced and hubbed later. It almost always pays to batch stuff because your customer's friend is going to ask next. >miscellaneous gizmos. I find if I am not careful I can be buried with >freebee work leaving no time for my own projects. You can be buried in paying work too. I am right now. Regards, Hoyt Belfab CNC - http://www.freeyellow.com/members/belfab/belfab.html Best MC Repair - http://www.freeyellow.com/members/batwings/best.html Camping/Caving - http://www.freeyellow.com/members/batwings/caving.html Welcome to the new millenium!! ------- Date: Wed, 03 Jan 2001 05:32:17 -0800 From: James Eckman Subject: Re: Working Keep a logbook of jobs, including key setups and the amount of time spent. This will help you with estimating. A really good example of workflow and time estimates is Smith's Advanced Machine Work from Lindsay. http://pages.prodigy.net/fugu/metal.html Good luck! Jim Eckman ------- Date: Wed, 03 Jan 2001 09:17:00 -0500 From: Ken Jenkins Subject: Re: Sailboat mod pricing > How would you price these out? By the time I'm done I'll probably have > several tens of hours tied up generating the toolpaths, making the jigs, > etc. The shop time, per set, will be a few hours at most. The total > number of customers should be well under 100. I've never done freelance machining. Shops typically charge from $25-$50 per hour depending on where in the country you are. However, I have done quite a bit of freelance programming in my day. I used to teach digital electronics at the college level and during the summers ran my own custom application software company. I took on a lot of different jobs (sales analysis for a printing company, quality control for a casting company, a robotic assembly line trainer for Jeep (that was fun, surrounded with 30 sets of Fisher-Technic for several months - FT is like Lego Technic to the next level, etc.) ... anyway I used to just work backward. The first question to ask yourself is WHY AM I DOING THIS? If the answer is something other than "to make money", then skip the next section and go have fun! Turns out there are lots of other reasons for doing things other than "for money" and the important thing is not to fool yourself into thinking you're doing something you're not. 1. If I do this what is the minimum amount/hr which makes this desirable to do? i.e. "If I can't make $_____ then forget it. 2. What will the market bear? This is still a capitalist economy (you will notice the number of dead .com's by the side of the road as a testament to this fact). 3. What are my expenses per/unit? Raw materials, consumable supplies, power, heat, etc. (some of this is a guess ... I've worked for huge companies who don't know any more about exactly how much it costs to make a product than you will ... in fact less ... they guess ... sometimes wrongly). Also don't forget packaging, an instruction manual for installation of your retrofit kit (getting this right will take 10 times longer than physically machining the kits!), shipping/handling, etc. And don't forget advertising and promotion, if you intend to sell these kits people need to know about them. This probably means a print ad in a "model sailboat" publication, etc. 4. Figure a minimum run ... say 10 sets? whatever .... You say you have a feel for how long it will take to machine out a set. Ok, now do the math. Multiply hours, divide expenses, etc., etc. 5. If the $ profit amount/hour is somewhere about 1/2 way between #1 and 2 above then it might work out for you. Anything else ... forget it and go race your boat! Ken ------- Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2001 14:53:13 -0800 From: "Craig Libuse" Subject: Re: becoming a dealer? Dear John, Anyone with a way to sell Sherline tools can become a dealer. There is no up-front purchase required and no minimum sale or annual sales requirement. Dealer applicants should submit a letter by mail or fax on their business letterhead to our General manager, Charla Papp. (Fax 760-727-7857) In the letter state briefly how you intend to market Sherline tools; i.e., store, mail order, web site, flea markets, etc. Include a copy of your local business license and/or tax resale license if required in your area. We are interested in people who will be good representatives of the tools and offer good support to their customers with prompt responses and good bookkeeping. We are trying to avoid people who are just looking to buy one machine at "dealer price", as it takes some effort on our part to set up and maintain records on a dealer. Dealers who sell over $1000.00 (retail) of product can be listed on our Internet dealer list with a free link to their web site if they have one. Applicants receive a dealer info package detailing dealer discounts and company policies upon approval. Net 30-day credit is also available if you include 3 business references and a bank reference. Otherwise, purchases can be made by credit card, check or money order. For full details, see our web page at www.sherline.com/newdlr.htm. Sincerely Yours, Craig Libuse Marketing Director ------- Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2001 00:15:49 EST From: jgboothacwx~xxaol.com Subject: Re: to buy sherline mini on ebay or the dealers or the factory is ... Hi Craig et al, Thanx for your comments on Sherline's presence on eBay. I have had several customers come to me after losing a bid on eBay. I would like to caution others about your comments about contacting losing bidders on your auctions. I posted a lathe package for sale a while ago and after the auction I contacted the losing bidders to let them know of my regular sale prices. A couple people appreciated the info and a couple others resented the "unwanted solicitation" and reported me to eBay for "spamming" them. I've discontinued this practice and others should be cautious. Greg Booth Loretto, MN Antique Clockworks, Ltd. Sherline Products Dealer ------- Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 22:51:06 -0000 From: alicemcrittendenx~xxnetscape.net Subject: Any Senior Artisans/Crafters? Hi everyone, I am a new member to this list. I would like to introduce myself a bit and mention why I am here. I need the help of the crafting/artisan network. I am wondering if anyone on this listserv is a senior artisan or crafter? In other words, are you or any crafter or artisan 50 or older? I am a member of a national non- profit group (Green Thumb, Inc.) which has a website to assist senior artisans and crafters sell their products. This project is not part of any commercial effort for us to benefit from, nor are we out to make a profit. We are actually here to help senior artisans sell their products. I will be cross posting this message to other lists. I do hope that I am not posting incorrectly. As I said, we are here to help. A little information follows below. Geezer.com (http://www.geezer.com) is a distinctive recently launched Internet e-commerce website featuring products of senior artisans for the artisans. As a one of a kind site, Geezer.com offers online shoppers the handiwork of seniors from cities, towns, village and hamlets all across the country. The site brings the unique products of America's seniors to people who don't regularly travel the back roads. Shoppers looking for unusual gifts and accessories will find them right here. We are giving seniors across the country the opportunity to supplement their income, launch new businesses, and expand the market for their handcrafted goods. This will not be a dotbomb.com site because it is funded by a federal grant. Please take ONE or TWO of the following actions. 1) Please help spread the word to interested senior artisans 2) Please visit the site (www.geezer.com) 3) Shop at Geezer.com to help senior artisans 4) Link our site to your site. 5) Write about or link to Geezer.com in your local areas(please contact me) To sign up as a Senior Artisan go to http://www.geezer.com/signup.html To buy at Handcrafted Quality Craft Products go to Go to http://www.Geezer.com For more information call toll Free 1-877-803-1468. The number is our Geezer.com service center number. It is operated by seniors in Texas. Thanks for listening, I hope to hear from some of you on the list or off list. Sincerely, Alice Crittenden Green Thumb National Office Alice M. Crittenden, for Geezer.com 2000 N. 14th Street, Suite 800 Arlington, VA. 22201 Telephone: 703-522-7272. Fax: 703-522-0141 Alice_crittendenx~xxgreenthumb.org P.S. On 5/23/01, an affiliate of FOX TV in Austin, Texas aired a spot about Geezer.com (no cost) during their morning show! They had 2.4 million viewers at that time. Also, Geezer.com, is currently featured as a related link in this week's U.S. News & World Report cover story, "Retirement Guide 2001: Here Come the Zoomers" on usnews.com. You'll find the Geezer.com link in the right hand corner of the news article at www.usnews.com/usnews/issue/010604/finance/culture.htm This page gets about 1.2 million internet hits per month, (no cost) ------- Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 13:49:16 -1000 (HST) From: Tom Benedict Subject: Pricing your work I've asked questions along these lines in terms of job shop rates, and have a pretty good idea how I'd charge for my time under those conditions. But this is a more specific question: I'm working on a small model engine design. This is by far the most complicated thing I've undertaken to date (though people doing multi-cylinder IC engines would probably laugh long and hard if they saw it.) I've got enough materials to make four of them, which I fully intend to do. I'm planning on keeping one, giving a second to a friend, and selling the other two to help offset the cost of materials. Any idea how much to charge? I'd apply the $25/hour + materials, but I'd be afraid the cost would come out at an unreasonably high figure (though I'm admittedly a poor judge of what "reasonable" is.) Halp! Tom ------- Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 23:55:52 -0000 From: "Robin S." Subject: Re: Pricing your work Is the product you're making available for sale currently? You may want to price it similarly with these off-the-shelf products, assuming it performs similarly. Producing parts in very small quantities is exceptionally expensive compared to mass-producing them. However, time on a custom machine specifically made to hog out engine blocks is significantly more expensive than on a machine worth less than a grand run by someone who is, perhaps, not exactly a professional (certainly no offence intended). Things to keep in mind... Regards, Robin ------- Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 19:20:18 -0700 (PDT) From: "Chris V." Subject: Re: Re: Pricing your work I agree with all of Robin's thoughts. I create custom modified yo-yos for people, it's my small side business to fund my addiction...I mean hobby ;) The thing I took into account most was the price of other products comparable to mine. The price for a high performance/high quality yoyo is about $40, but they are mass produced. It takes me about 2 hours average to complete a yoyo. Based on that I charge $10 per half-hour + materials. Works out really well and I am still competitively priced with mass produced products. Many people are willing to pay $50+ for a custom made yoyo. Just charge what you think YOUR time is worth. Chris ------- Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2003 13:59:11 -0000 From: "Robin S." Subject: Re: Pricing your work Everything that costs must be paid for. The building, the electricity, the water, the bathroom cleaning supplies, the coffee, insurance (for the building, machines and people), software, cutters, time, etc. However, most here have *real* jobs and do this just for fun. At that point, material, time and maybe cutters are about the only things that cost. Regards, Robin ------- Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2003 11:23:23 -0700 From: "Nicholas Carter and Felice Luftschein" Subject: Re: Re: Pricing your work This is one of the most difficult things to figure out. I generally charge depending on who the person is. A good friend I charge nothing for simple quick jobs, and I usually trade or just have them pay me what they think it's worth on bigger jobs. Remember, this is a Good Friend, the kind you would throw yourself on a hand grenade for. A run of the mill friend I usually charge about $25.00 an hour, but don't do jobs that take very long, if they are poor, I charge them what they make an hour. But I only do these jobs if I have time, which I don't so much anymore. For commercial jobs, friend or no, I charge about $50-$60 an hour, plus any tooling I have to buy. For customers who just bought a bunch of stuff from me, I will do simple jobs for about $25 an hour, especially if they haven't a chance in hell of doing it right (like making endmill holders, or t-nuts for the mill) If I am doing an ongoing job, I bid based on what it should take me in time once I get it going right - I eat the extra cost of prototype-learning as long as I am guaranteed a bunch of parts to make. The hummingbird feeder parts I make used to take me about 15 minutes, and I get $5.00 a set of parts, but now it takes me about 5 minutes, so I make a good $60+ an hour when making them. I have done thousands of these though, the tooling is already made, etc. A good way to see how serious a person is is to give them a comprehensive quote. See our web pages http://www.cartertools.com/nfhome.html ------- Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2003 14:22:02 -1000 (HST) From: Tom Benedict Subject: Re: Re: Pricing your work If I had to order special tooling, I'd definitely charge it. But wear and tear on my lathe bits and mills I kinda wrap up into the hourly rate (which I've charged all of about two times, so this is all very tongue-in-cheek.) Setup's charged at the hourly rate, and jigs and fixtures are charged as time+materials. Tom ------- Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2003 19:04:54 -0400 From: "Statman Designs, LLC" Subject: Re: Hairpin turns on the road to success / was Oxide thicknesses for a non-beginner While getting my Ph.D. in Chemical Engineering our lab had a professional machinist and a full machine shop with 2 mills, 2 lathes, surface grinder, welder, and an AMAZING professional machinist just for our group of two students. So I learned the art of machining from a true craftsman. After graduating I took a job as a professor teaching analytical chemistry and chemical engineering. I would use the machine shops occasionally to make parts for my lab classes, but really didn't do too much. Then I got engaged and I thought it would be cool to make my own wedding ring, and I am the cheapest bastard you will ever meet. I thought titanium would be cool, and I could inlay it with gold. I used the schools machine shop and made my ring. Everybody I showed it to thought it was very nice, but what are they going to say? I liked it and would talk about it and show people. Then friends started wanting me to make rings for them, and then friends of friends. The university kicked me off their lathes when I was spending too much time in the machine shop. So I bought a Sherline lathe and put up a website. Now I make jewelry for a living. I use all aspects of my education, and would never have been able to invent the process and make the machines and design my pieces without my background. Daniel J. Statman, Statman Designs www.statmandesigns.com dan.statmanx~xxrennlist.com ------- Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2003 00:14:34 -0400 From: "ori " Subject: CNC Market... Let's say you have your Taig Mill. You have your software. You have your raw materials. Also, you have the know-how. So.. how do you go about getting those 1st clients? How do you market your services or products? I'm not talking about "Do great work 'cause word of mouth advertising is the best" -- that is true, but is not a way to get the 1st set of clients. It's a way to get more clients and to keep current ones. For example here's how I got mine in graphics/video I get a lot of business by word of mouth as I produce top-notch work. This is in reference to graphic design, 3d animation, compositing, and video editing. The way I got started is back in '95-'96 I was working at CompUSA (Ugh-- did that suck), and I was doing a lot of reading in magazines to learn about graphics and 3d. At the time I wanted to do 3d animation. A guy walked into the store and asked about graphics and about upgrading his computer-- everyone referred him to me, as no one else in the store seemed to know anything. I answered in detail, and he said he has a studio, and I can come learn a thing or 2 if I upgrade his computer for him. I did the upgrade, and it was a very cool studio. I learned a little bit of 2d graphics there, taught myself some more 3d. I was going to go to school in California to learn Softimage 3d, and when we the whole studio plus some friends of everyone's went to see Jurassic Park 2, I met a guy who owns Softimage and a studio. When I got back from Cali, I started doing some work for that guy. The video editor left there, and I had to learn video editing to cover the slack. I learned it, and learned that it can save a ton of time with animation... being able to edit your mistakes out, etc... Did more work, and met more clients. When the company folded (long story, but the guy who's company it was (not the one who brought me into the company, he's cool) is lazy, and didn't want to try and sell to new clients), a lot of the clients kept calling up and *someone* had to handle the work :). I was able to handle it, bought some of my own gear, and the rest is history / word of mouth. Then I had a demo artist job for a Discreet Logic reseller. Demo'ed 3dsMax, Discreet Edit*, Combustion*, Smoke*, and Alias Maya (I know that's not made by Discreet)-- and anything that I demo'ed, I usually got to teach as well. That was a great way to get new clients. People would buy the software, buy some training, and then just realize that 3d/video isn't always as easy as the demo artist makes it seem... so... they'd call and ask if I can just come in and do some more projects for them. That was a few of the ways that I got my "first" clients. The rest is word of mouth. Once I had some clients, I had a portfolio. I posted my work on my website, made some business cards, and was able to just tell people about what I do when I'm out at parties, bars, or anywhere. "Oh.. you make Widgets?? That's great.. Do you have a commercial for your widgets? No? I can make you a commercial, business card, website, and training DVD for your widget. Here's my card." *shrug* That's probably more writing than everyone wanted- but that's my history of how I got started and got my clients. So... how'd you get yours? How would you recommend for someone who's new in the business or wants to get into the business? ------- Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2003 19:42:22 -1000 (HST) From: Tom Benedict Subject: Re: CNC Market... > "Oh.. you make Widgets?? That's great.. Do you have a commercial for > your widgets? No? I can make you a commercial, business card, website, > and training DVD for your widget. Here's my card." You just answered part of your question. Not that I've sold enough from my shop to say I'm making money at it, but I think you've got a couple of good ideas already. One is to explore it as an outreach of what you already do. You've listed a couple of potential clients whose projects are a natural extension of your 3D graphics work. The Taig tools produce small detailed work well. Some of the examples you've already come up with fit the bill perfectly. Take that ring idea, for example. Wear it to the next party. If you're doing engraving, slip an engraved brass or aluminum plate in your wallet. If they're thin, slip in a couple. Then replay that conversation: "Oh.. you're an animator?? That's great.. I imagine you've already got a demo set up, and if you don't I may be able to help you out there since I do video. But do you have miniatures for any of your characters? No? I can make you one if you're interested. Here, take a look at this ring. That's the kind of detail I can get out of my tools. Oh, I do engraving, too. Here's my card. Yeah, I made that, too." Tom ------- Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 22:48:53 -0000 From: "Charles Hixon" Subject: Re: Home Buisness > Is anyone running a machine business out of their home? > I was wondering if there were any problems with > setting one up as far as local zoning I am not an attorney and can only speak from from my residential door to door experience. Why would you be telling anyone? Be discrete, blend in, consider it a hobby, rent a P.O.Box, get a cell phone, report any extra income. If and when you project a real cash flow, it's time to rent a small garage space in an industrial park or a corner of your local machine shop or where ever, find an attorney, accountant, and banker. Lots of folks will not tolerate the personal and financial risks involved, so you have to have the right attitude for it to work. Charles Hixon ------- Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 18:20:02 -0400 From: "Rick Wenrich" Subject: Re: Home Buisness I think that you can probably get away with calling it a hobby instead of a business. You are allowed to make money at your hobby. As long as you don't have employees you should be ok. It's really taxes you need to worry about. Now, if you start having trucks dropping things off at your house it might be different. Rick -------- Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2003 13:06:23 -0400 From: Ken Jenkins Subject: Re: Home business I think it's mainly a matter of "traffic, noise and pollution". My son runs his php programming business out of our home, but the only thing going in and out is billions of electrons which he rearranges into certain patterns :-) and a few UPS trucks every now and again bearing more more computer hardware. There's almost no noise associated (unless his system crashes in the middle of something important ... in which case I usual remark to my wife, "Hey, I never taught him those words!!!). If however, you don't run a compressor all day, or a plasma torch and you don't have lots of customers (foot traffic and parking issues) coming and going or, as Rick mentioned, trucks coming and going on a continual basis, why in the world would your neighbors know or care? Zoning should protect the interests of the community in the zone from experiencing some type of "loss" based on the singular interests of a single individual in that zone. In your case if there's no noise and no excessive traffic and no pollution .... who loses? Just make sure your company is set up properly and you pay your taxes. My 2 cents, not to be misconstrued as any type of "legal advice" Ken J. ------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2003 08:27:01 -0800 From: "Marcus and Eva" Subject: Re: Re: liability Original Message ----- From: "Charles Hixon" To: Sent: Thursday, November 06, 2003 6:44 AM Subject: [sherline] Re: 3/32 steel rod > Fasteners are made to designated ASTM/SAE/JIS, etc. specifications > and identified by grade in accordance with specifications. If you > make a fastener that does not consider industry standards, you don't > want to take any chances that it will circulate in the public. If > it fails and can be traced back to you, you may have a liability. > If the fastener is made to industry standards, you can easily defend > a failure - to the point of deflecting any claims. > You can make your own proprietary fasteners that cannot possibly be > interchangeable with any other mechanical component. This will help > prevent unauthorized public distribution, but you are still liable > for failures of the assembly if you didn't consider the concepts > behind the industry standards. > 12L14 is not a material recognized for use in fasteners, primarily > because of it's poor resistance to impact loading. > Charles Hixon Hi Charles: Unfortunately, you bring up a very good point. We often neglect this in our enthusiasm, but the lawyer boys will never let go of it once they get their claws in. I say "unfortunately" obviously because it restricts the scope of what we can do with impunity, and raises the spectre of accountability in some pretty unpleasant ways that lots of us blithely don't consider until we get clobbered. One of my buddies builds custom bicycle parts for BMX bikes. I shudder every time he brings by a new ultra light titanium axle; copies of which have just been sold to all his riding buddies. Another of my buddies is engaged on a project that involves temperatures in the 1000 degree and pressures in the 3500 PSI range; and he's using plumbing fittings from Home Depot and Canadian Tire. I don't go downstairs to his shop when he and his friends are working on it anymore...I just can't stand the strain. I recently built, together with yet another buddy, a laser engraver for a commercial customer. The safety specifications would curl your hair, and the documentation burden was truly awesome!!! This was a low wattage CO2 laser...a sheet of plexiglass in front of it was perfectly adequate from a purely technical point of view...in fact, the previous vendor had done just that! Needless to say, this didn't go over too well (aside from the fact that they never did get the code to work). Thanks Charles, for bringing it up...you're right on! Cheers Marcus ------- Date: Fri, 8 Oct 2004 08:51:26 -0700 From: "David" Subject: Re: Re: Magnetic chuck body - now ER20 collet chuck [sherline group] > I don't > have the health or financial resources to go commercial with this > stuff. I also don't have the incination to be an entrepreneuer. I'm > having fun, and I don't want to be bothered with schedules, > committments, and all the rest of the shit that goes with being > a "businessman." Been there, done that, and now it's time for > something new. You got that absolutely right. I almost got trapped in the pen thing. Made one for my wife; she took it to work; her best friend wanted one; then another one wanted one for her husband; etc. Wound up the last week of November with orders for 200 pens. Although I got paid (handsomely) for it, it stopped being fun. Dave Wood ------- NOTE TO FILE: For a lot of folks, turning pens may soon transform from a hobby to a business. Consequently there are some business ideas and problems in the Turning Pens text file that any small business operator will find interesting. And don't forget to have fun, in hobbies or in business. ------- Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2004 12:25:59 -0000 From: "broken003" Subject: Making parts/ Legal liability In this day and age with lawsuits abounding. Has anybody looked into protecting yourself from legal action for the products that you made/make? I'm getting ready to sell a product which if defective could cause personal injury property damage (but what products couldn't). Can anyone recommend how to go about protecting myself from money hungry people? Thanks Mark ------- Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2004 08:27:52 -0400 From: "Baughman, Ray A." Subject: RE: Making parts/ Legal liability Mark, there is only one way to protect yourself from a lawsuit. Don't make the product. Ray ------- Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2004 14:49:04 -0000 From: "Ed Chesnut" Subject: Re: Making parts/ Legal liability Ray nailed it. For maximum risk reduction, don't make the part. At the other end of the continuum - maximum risk, make the part out of inferior materials with poor workmanship with inadequate engineering to back up the design (add any other BAAAAAAD ways to go about it you can think of). To put yourself some where in the middle of the continuum of risk management, you'll want to consider the following items: Engineering Testing to a recognized safety standard (UL ?) Top Quality materials (retain documentation) Quality Control Inspection program (maintain documentation of inspections) Serial numbering of parts (to maintain ties to documentation of materials and inspection) Incorporation Liability insurance etc. etc. etc. Is there enough profit potential to make the whole project worthwhile? And worth the effort to attain the desired level of liability protection? Ed ------- Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2004 09:07:52 -0700 (PDT) From: Tyler Jones Subject: RE: Making parts/ Legal liability Well if it is a good product you may want to do it anyway so here are some hints: -Look around and see what your competitors are doing. Call them and tell them you are a MBA student doing research for a paper and they may open up and tell you a lot more then they should. -Consider the type product. Making machine guns carries with it nearly as many regulations as medical devices. -Get an attorney to help you figure out the best form of business (I would recommend a LLC) and insurance you will need. -Create the business as an entity in itself so no one can go after you as a person. -Keep records! Not only because you will have to pay taxes every 4 months on everything from stock to machines you use, but also maintenance records on your equipment, quality control, and "all such things." -Most of all be very aware about your obligations to the government. Pay your taxes, keep up your insurance, and file all the paperwork required. The government is inflexible and very unforgiving! -All you need now is a business plan and money. For more information contact the SBA (http://www.sbaonline.sba.gov/) and SCORE (http://www.score.org/). They will be able to help you out a lot after you have your business plan. If you think you can just make a product and sell it on eBay you will be left wide open for personal lawsuits. If you have the idea of making a AR-15 receiver without permission by the ATF you will face 7 years incarceration. I can not overstate the magnitude a business plan has. It should be your starting point and it may show you that you have no market and you stop right there. If you still believe in your product the business plan will focus you and help you stay on track. You can download a template business plan from Microsoft's website. Thank You, Tyler ------- Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2004 20:50:01 -0000 From: "dhkoizumi" Subject: Re: Making parts/ Legal liability You might try to use a "Hold Harmless" waiver. Many products are sold with this -- stuff like Nitrous Oxide systems which are notorious for blowing up engines. Most of the problems with nitrous are due to inexperience and abuse, but there are still plenty of kids who seem more than willing to learn the hard way... That said, NOTHING you can get your clients to sign will nullify their right to sue you. But, a signed waiver at least lets your clients know the risks involved ahead of time and sets expectations accordingly. As long as you can show due diligence in engineering and producing the part, a hold harmless waiver may offer some degree of protection. ------- Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2004 18:08:16 -0400 From: Ken Jenkins Subject: Re: Lawsuits & Protection Well I'm not a lawyer ... but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express! 1. Set your company up as an LLC (limited liability corporation) if you can. That helps to separate YOUR assets from the company's assets. 2. Have a good insurance policy. Sometimes you can get a blanket $1,000,000 or so on top of an existing policy (even a home owner's policy). Insurance companies don't like to pay claims. They fight very hard not to. 3. Put all the disclaimers and instructions and warnings etc. possible on your product ... however .... none of that will keep people from suing you nor will it keep you from losing in court. With the wrong lawyer/jury combination anything can happen. If you manufacture ashtrays now-a-days you could find yourself sued because someone picked it up and smacked themselves in the head with it and your warning literature didn't strictly warn them against it. But at least you can say, "I tried as hard as I could to explain the risks involved and to make the proper usage as clear as possible." Ken ------- Date: Sat, 2 Jul 2005 10:52:05 -0700 From: "Felice Luftschein and Nicholas Carter" Subject: Re: Money Making Projects with Mill [taigtools group] > Does anyone use their mill to make money? I have a few Ideas but I > don't know if my little taig is up to making multiples of the same part > over and over. Depends how much money? I make an index plate for the Taig lathe with my mill, I have probably paid for half of it with the plates over the last three years. I have used it to make dies for stamping jewelry thet probably paid for the other half. There are some pics on my pages of some people who have made good money making Paintball and motorcycle parts, and jewelry. It's not a production tool but with the right product and the right expectations you can make parts for sale that will give you a profit. (if you can market them, pay overhead, etc, etc). If you do production then you need to stay on top of backlash - running the mill constantly will wear the screws in, also balance the wear by moving the parts around on the table. Keep it lubed and happy. A look through my picture section and the Taig user pages on my site will show the extremely wide breadth of projects done on the Taig mill or lathe. Check out our homepage www.cartertools.com/nfhome.html ------- Date: Mon, 04 Jul 2005 08:02:39 -0000 From: "tajhead" Subject: Re: Money Making Projects with Mill I have been making tools to drain helicopter gearboxes for about 4 years now on my Taig lathe and Sherline mill. I have made 20 or 30 of the same item numerous times within a day or two and the machines come out faring better than I. The only problem with making money with tools you bought for a hobby is that the hobby part of it can be left behind. I have a lot of hobby project sitting on the shelf as I fill orders. So I have actually had to schedule "Hobby Time" in. So much to do, so little time. Not that I am trying to scare anyone off making money on their tools, you just have to remember that if you bought them for a hobby, don't forget the hobby part. bryan H. ------- Date: Tue, 05 Jul 2005 22:23:24 -0000 From: "jdholbrook33" Subject: Re: Money Making Projects with Mill In taigtools "jdholbrook33" wrote: > > I have probably paid for my mill, lathe and tooling a couple of In taigtools "rpetrick2002"wrote: > I logged onto your site. Looks like some pretty good stuff. Picking > one part more or less at random: > GWS EPS 300/350 gearbox single 22.7mm stator mount - $8.00 > How long does it take to machine this part? How much in raw material > (including wastage)? How long to dismount the finished part, clean > the swarf, and remount another blank? > I'm not trying to be nosy, just curious. Can you pay for labor, > machine, and materials and still turn a profit at $8.00 per part? Robert On the Stator mounts. They are actually two piece. I buy the base from a machine shop, machine the tubes then press them together with Loctite 609. I can make 30 tubes in an hour. Material cost is $0.07 each with very little wastage. My bandsaw blade is 0.8mm thick and I can get 11 tubes per foot of stock at $0.62 a foot. The Turret tailstock is a lifesaver. If I pay myself $20 per hour then my cost for a complete mount is $2.82 so I am not making a killing on an $8.00 mount but it's fun. I can make the bases myself and have made a few to custom specs for customers. They are actually easier to make than the tubes so I would guess I could make them for $1.00 to $1.50 each due to higher cost of material and more wastage. Most time consuming part is tapping the two holes. I just picked up a Tapmatic off Ebay and will be trying that in my drill press. All in all I've had a great time, learned a lot and made some new friends. What more could you ask for? James ------- Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2005 03:14:47 -0000 From: "jensen_remote" Subject: Making products with the Taig Mill Hello everyone, A while ago there was a thread about projects using the Taig mill which could be sold (i.e., to make a little profit). Well, I've been working on it for a few months, and this is my answer to that question: neon tube clocks. You can see the site I just set up at www.tubeclock.com. All the enclosures are milled out with the Taig. Obviously, there is a significant electronics component as well, but the job just couldn't be done without the mill. I have a prototype of a wood enclosure in addition to the aluminum enclosure shown on the site. I sure do love using this mill, and in a few months I hope it will have paid for itself :) I just wanted to share, and to thank the collective taigtools group for all the help I've gotten here in the past. Now I have to find the next project... any ideas? :) Best Regards, Peter ------- Date: Sat, 03 Dec 2005 19:18:27 -0600 From: "paul schobernd" Subject: RE: [OldTools] Too precious? As a Newbie here I will stick my neck out in public. It seems to me that the dilemma you mention is not too uncommon and I believe the answer is ==both & and== when it comes to bread labor. When I first made dulcimers for sale I wanted them to be perfect, made of the highest quality woods by hand methods alone. I can do that, but it's like my old homestead eggs that cost me $3 a dozen to produce at home back in the late 70s. They were worth it to me, but I had a difficult time getting anybody to pay me for them! I can make you a very serviceable solid wood dulcimer for $85 or I can make you a handmade masterpiece for $500 We all gotta eat and sometimes that means doing the work as best we know how in a way that will allow us to have a saleable product and to make a profit. It doesn't mean that we can't be true to ourselves and our aspirations and values. It just means that we have to have some flexibility in our approach. You start, I think, by letting your head see the world in all of its wonderful grey continuum. Most situations are not black or white so you get to choose the appropriate mix of technology, materials and craftsmanship in any given situation. High technology and tailed apprentices may not be appropriate for this list, but this list is only part of life. An example. I knew a man who had built himself the grandest shop you ever saw--huge beams, vast spaces even a cupola on top to stargaze while the glue was drying. He stocked it with only the finest wood, no plyw%%d here! Then he said I will make only the finest products with no compromise. Long story short, once his initial work ran out he was in debt, out of business and out of fine woodworking. Too bad for him and the world because he was an extremely gifted artist in wood. But, he was also too rigid to recognize the realities of making a living. Not everybody can afford the finest of the finest and sometimes plain old 2 X 4s are good enough for a given job. Fine old tools are both art as in form follows function and practical ways to do a job. If you love those tools they are not a waste of time. They may just not be appropriate for every bread labor job you do. Most of my fine old tools have never made me one bit richer, but that is not how my living was made most of the time. In this case they are not overhead, but enhancements from my discretional income. Our real goal is to make a life and making a living is a big part of that. When our living is secure we have time and money to bring high quality workmanship and our best old tools to our projects that we may not have been able to bring to every bread labor job. This is when we get to do Heart Labor. Here we can stretch ourselves and indulge our passions to make great things that please our heart and soul as well as our brain. We still have to make shelves for SWMBO and you can try and win her over to your dream of workmanship, but if she wants some place to put her latest jars of pickled cauliflower and the sauerkraut, expediency rules. One last thought occurs to me. Is there someplace you could move where people would pay you to use your finest skills and tools to do your work? I am woefully ignorant of the wood boat market. There, I have now told you everything I know. So, I'll go have my warm milk and take a nap, before I start sharpening my old tools and some knives for the hotel---where Norm and St.Roy create hand-in-hand! Paul Schobernd ------- Date: Sat, 3 Dec 2005 22:32:59 -0600 From: "genfurn" Subject: Re: [OldTools] Too precious? I have struggled with this question many times in the last few years as I try to make a living building custom furniture. I got into this business out of a desire to build really nice furniture and offer quality as an option to the termite barf-based stuff available in the furniture stores. Entered into the business with the idea that hand tool work would be a huge selling point to a client. I am sure that to some clients, the allure of furniture made by hand tools would be strong. Unfortunately, I haven't found many of those clients. Most people with whom I deal want quality and are pleased with the fact that this is *their* specific hand-built piece of furniture. But, and this is a huge but, (no pun intended) they also don't want to spend a great deal more just because it was made without electron-killing devices. So, as others have said and will say again, it is a balance. There is a definite place for hand tools in my business. There is also such a thing as pride being overkill when the client won't know the difference. Indeed, if you have the opportunity to examine some of the really old fine antiques, what is seen is beautiful. Often, what is not seen would almost appear to have been worked with a dull hatchet. This does not detract from the fact that the piece is beautiful, but does give the thinking craftsman a different perspective from which to view his work. I work in a specific way, knowing that sometimes I put a little extra effort in a place that will never be seen just because I know it is there. I also know that there is a time when that effort simply cannot happen because I have to get the job done and it in no way affects the beauty or serviceability of what I have built. I also have a great admiration for the old timers who seemed to get an awful lot done with plane irons sharpened on a stone that looked like a very old horse's back. There is much to be said for the ability to achieve good work without too much fanfare. Fancy tools, flat benches, scary sharp tools and a brace for every bit you own is all nice, but the essence of good workmanship and quality work is the ability to do the job with less than ideal circumstances. Please don't misunderstand. I really enjoy my hand tools. Too many saws, planes and braces grace my workshop. But in the final analysis, the volume of tools available will never determine the quality of my work. Only my skill level with the tools needed will do that That being said, knowing when enough is enough doesn't come easily. You learn it over years of practice. Frankly, I'm still learning. And that is the way it should be. Just my opinion, YMMV G'night All, and may you have a wonderful Sunday. Bruce Z Kearney, MO ------- Date: Sun, 4 Dec 2005 10:25:46 -0500 From: "Charlie Driggs" Subject: Re: [OldTools] Too precious? (long response) This discussion seems to me to go to the heart of what the Porch debates in so many ways. We ask a bunch of questions of each other that all go to these points. What is the best tool for this job? What is the best tool of its type? How much time should I spend on getting an edge --should I be able to shave my arm without even feeling it or can the skin feel just the tiniest of pulls? How long should it take to make a _____? Why favor handtools over electron burners? For a production shop doing the same thing over and over in high volume, I have little doubt that machines are the way to go for many tasks -- especially if they can be computer controlled to produce uniform dimensions. But that isn't the kind of work I ever want to do, and more importantly, using those tools introduces safety issues that cannot be ignored. (A personal experience with a screaming demon drawing blood confirmed that, and I thought I was following all the safety rules.) I had thought for close to a decade that maybe I'd retire, set up a shop, and restore / refinish furniture part-time and maybe occasionally make new stuff by request. I like the work, and I'm reasonably good at it while I readily admit I don't know nearly as much about it as I need to know to be trusted with a stained, dirty, damaged piece that if properly restored would be a $50,000 antique such as I irregularly see in museums, shops and shows. I've made a living in a line of work that has next to nothing to do with my current hobbies / occasional paid furniture repair-refinish work. Like many of us rockin' away here, I'm in a financial position after 33 yrs of a professional life that is modestly comfortable, and I can afford to have a few LN planes in my workshop. I bought them because I thought I needed their finer qualities and hadn't found examples of what inspired their creation at an affordable price. That in no way makes my workshop better than anyone else's, as I am certain that others here can make things that are more awe-inspiring than what I have produced while using more "mundane" tools. Some of my ancestors were also carpenters, wheelwrights, blacksmiths, budding cabinetmakers, and toolmakers. I know much of what they did would be considered 'serviceable' or 'meeting market needs'. I contrast, I strive to do higher-end work out of a desire to improve my skills and produce something worth keeping around, not because I have a customer that is limited by what they can afford. The reality is that nearly all customers are limited by what they can afford, because they are like us. Only a very few can hold out for the finest work and afford the cost of having it done, just as few of us on this list can afford a bespoke mahogany bedroom set and custom fitted cabinetry in our closets (and no, I can't either, but I do know a couple people who can and did). As a result, many of us doing woodworking as a hobby explore producing things that are probably 'better quality' with our old tools than what former commercial owners of those tools would have produced. Worse, the things I produce I could not part with for the going commercial price of competing products because customers allocate what income they have among many different competing needs, and that rarely allows them to write blank checks. I'd go broke if I was in business trying to find customers who want me to make the finest furniture I could make, just as did Paul's acquaintence with "the grandest shop". What I strive to do, and probably many of us strive to do, is in between 'mundane' (NO termite barf) and exceptional, and yet still borders on what 'gentlemen woodworkers' might have done 100-200 yrs ago. I know I can't charge enough to provide me with a reasonable income per hour of work expended making furniture, just as I've determined that I can't sharpen saws for prices people can justify and make enough to make it worthwhile. (At the prices Tom Law charged me a few years before he retired, I didn't see how he made enough to want to keep doing -- and then he retired.) So it is unlikely I'll ever try. A few years ago, when we were exploring the prices charged and time required for cabinetmakers and joiners to build various items 100-200 yrs ago, it was a confirmation. I knew I was too slow -- but the time it took those guys to get things done was nearly a ten-fold improvement over me. And our shops are very often better equipped than what they had to work with. Seeing the Dominy shops and what Winterthur displays of that family's works, what is demonstrated at Williamsburg and elsewhere, and inspecting fine old antiques repeatedly confirms to me that the 'finest craftsmen' of old weren't 'finest' because of a high- end collection of tools or a superbly gorgeous workbench or any obsession with making furniture perfect in corners no one can see as well as on the outside. They didn't do their work that way. More of it was consistent with what St. Roy shows (the rare times I get to see his show) than many of us might admit. They may have had fine tools for a few specific tasks, but because they knew how to use what they had or make what tools they needed even when those tools were what we might think second-rate, they were able to get the job done in fine form and short order with tooling that is less impressive than what many of us have already. That's highly respectable in my eyes. I like the few luxuries I have in my shop, but I am much more conscious at this point of just how large a gap remains between my level of skill with my tools and the skills those folks displayed in their work. So, I no longer delude myself into believing that I can make some money at this work, and I instead focus upon learning more about how our elders did their work, did it well, and produced things that are worth preserving through generations. Using hand tools, preserving hand tool methods, and preserving the tools while still keeping them useful provides me an avenue for considerable relaxation. That makes it worth it, and I can still select the degree of fineness in my work to match the immediate need. I can simultaneously be working on a quick-build project for a mundane use right next to an attempt at something finely crafted. I don't need to get tied up in an obsession over work quality that leaves me unable to either finish anything or ever use a fine tool. Life is too short, and I need to accomplish things to that I hope will add to the things of value and worth preserving over the years. That's how I use my tools, and thankfully I don't have to worry about making a living from many of the tools I have acquired from people who did use them to make their living. This is my relaxation, my enjoyment, maybe part of my legacy, and I'm thankful for it. Charlie Driggs Newark DE -------