This is just one of some 80 files about machining and metalworking and useful workshop subjects that can be read at: http://www.janellestudio.com/metal/index.html ------------------------------------------------------------------ Here are some metalworkers' tips about a workshop small business. When looking for ways to make money with your metalworking hobby, you might also find some ideas in the Projects In Metal file here. Many times a small business has started when someone finds a need, finds no suppliers (or no suppliers at a reasonable cost), and solves the problem him/herself. Eureka, there must be lots of others out there with the same need [customers]. Just remember to check out the patent situation. Doing a one-off car part for yourself might be okay. Making and selling that same part might be okay if there is no relevant patent still in force. If in doubt, or you plain don't know the patent status, invest some time in research to save much time and money in court. Another serious concern will be your legal liability if a product is involved in an accident or other cause of a lawsuit. While some messages have some ideas that "might" (not necessarily "will") help protect you, you really must get competent professional legal opinion and assistance before launching production and sales. If you got to this file directly from my HOME PAGE, return there by using your browser's back button. BUT if you came to this file as the result of a web search engine, see many additional files on my home page Machining and Metalworking at Home http://www.janellestudio.com/metal/index.html SAFETY WARNING BEWARE: DO NOT ASSUME that any subject matter or procedure or process is safe or correct or appropriate just because it was mentioned in a news/user group or was included in these files or on this site or on any other web site or was published in a magazine or book or video. Working with metals and machinery and chemicals and electrical equipment is inherently dangerous. Wear safety devices and clothing as appropriate. Remove watches, rings, and jewellery -- and secure or remove loose clothing -- before operating any machine. Read, understand and follow the latest operating procedures and safety instructions provided by the manufacturer of your machine or tool or product. If you do not have those most recent official instructions, acquire a copy through the manufacturer before operating or using their product. Where the company no longer exists, use the appropriate news or user group to locate an official copy. Be careful -- original instructions may not meet current safety standards. Updated safety information and operating instructions may also be available through a local club, a local professional in the trade, a local business, or an appropriate government agency. In every case, use your common sense before beginning or taking the next step; and do not proceed if you have any questions or doubts about any procedure, or the safety of any procedure. Follow all laws and codes, and employ certified or licenced professionals as required by those laws or codes. Hazardous tasks beyond your competence or expertise should also be contracted to professionals. Let's be really careful out there. (c) Copyright 2003 - 2016 Machining and Metalworking at Home The form of the collected work in this text file (including editing, additions, and notes) is copyrighted and this file is not to be reproduced by any means, including electronic, without written permission except for strictly personal use. ======================================================================= Date: Mon, 01 Jan 2001 18:25:30 -0700 From: "Les Grenz" Subject: Re: Of all the Taig CNC mill owners..... From: Sent: Monday, January 01, 2001 12:27 PM >> I am interested to see if any of you are using your Taig CNC mill >> to make a profit Tom Benedict wrote: > How many of you have ever charged for your work? Good subject. I do charge for work at times. I do some wheel and pinion cutting for several clock repair shops. Since they are reselling the work I feel I should charge for my work. Machinery is expensive and if my hobby can partially support itself so much the better. I also do some gear cutting for model railroaders making replacement gears for locomotives that cannot be purchased. I also do work for a microscope repair business making miscellaneous gizmos. I find if I am not careful I can be buried with freebee work leaving no time for my own projects. As far as charging for my work I determine the amount of time required for the job and quote $25 per hour. That is far below regular job shop rates. I do not compete for business with the job shops in town because the jobs I do would be refused by a commercial shop. $25 per hour is not much money for the work performed and yet is adequate to drive off the leeches. Of course I never charge good friends. I meet with a group of home machinists and all of us will gladly assist each other. Regards from Les Grenz & the Queen City of the Rockies. AWI 18150 NAWCC 82932 ------- Date: Tue, 02 Jan 2001 08:25:39 -0800 From: James Eckman Subject: Re: working I and other people have used my Taig lathe for various purposes like thinning screw heads and milling out a very small connector prototype. Most regular shops don't seem to be well set up for really small work, so there may be a niche market in your area. Also make sure that you know your limitations and don't overcommit. And don't quit your daytime job ;) Jim Eckman ------- Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2001 14:25:36 -0600 (CST) From: Tom Benedict Subject: Re: Re: working On Tue, 2 Jan 2001, James Eckman wrote: > I and other people have used my Taig lathe for various purposes like > thinning screw heads and milling out a very small connector prototype. > Most regular shops don't seem to be well set up for really small work, > so there may be a niche market in your area. That's kinda what I'm looking at right now, but in a limited sense. Actually, lemme describe the situation and get everyone's feedback on it. Here's the scoop: My wife got me a radio controlled sailboat kit as a present. Being the kind of guy I am, I can't leave anything alone, even a kit. Turns out there are lots of modifications people do to this one particular kind of sailboat, so I'm in hog heaven. I'm replacing the kit's heavy mast and boom with carbon fiber spars (legal, according to the class rules), rigging new servo mounts, servo arms, fairleads, chainplates, etc. One of the gotchas with replacing the spars is that the kit's fittings no longer work. The carbon fiber spars are MUCH smaller and stiffer, so the requirements for the mast and boom fittings are completely different from the ones that came with the kit. So I designed a new set. It comes out to about 18 mast, boom, and jib club fittings, plus three chainplates on deck, two fairleads, one servo arm, and a bunch of other minor stuff. I had a choice when I was designing them. On the one hand I could make them very functional, very PRETTY, kinda tedious to make, and make a single one-off set for my boat. On the other hand I could make them very functional, only slightly less pretty (hey, what's not pretty about brushed aluminum on carbon fiber), semi-mass-produceable, and make mine as a prototype set, with the option to crank out as many as I like later on. The bulk of the time on the first option would be spent at the machine. The bulk of the time on the second option would be spent working and re-working CAD files to make them quick to make, making jigs and fixtures, etc. I took the second route. If these things give me a competitive edge (har), there's the possibility that other people might be interested in getting a set made for them. I'm trying to make it so an entire set of fittings can be made with at most three jigs and only a handful of tool changes per jig. Figure a couple of hours of machine time, tops. I'm also trying to arrange things so that most of that machine time is long stretches of CNC work so that I can do other things while it's working. How would you price these out? By the time I'm done I'll probably have several tens of hours tied up generating the toolpaths, making the jigs, etc. The shop time, per set, will be a few hours at most. The total number of customers should be well under 100. > Also make sure that you know your limitations and don't overcommit. It's that overcommit bit that keeps kicking me in the butt. That's why I opted to set these up to make them as straightforward as I could. If someone DOES want a set, I'd like it to not put a knot in my stomach. > And don't quit your daytime job ;) Are you kidding?! My daytime job is what supports my habit! Err... HOBBY! My hobby. That's my story and I'm sticking to it. ;) Tom ------- Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2001 11:53:52 -0800 From: "Nicholas Carter and Felice Luftschein" Subject: Re: Of all the Taig CNC mill owners..... [taigtools] From: Sent: Monday, January 01, 2001 12:27 PM > I am interested to see if any of you are using your Taig CNC mill > to make a profit Indirectly, I use the Taig CNC mill to mill out dies for hydraulic die forming of jewelry. The few that I have done so far are selling well. As others have pointed out, usually there are other steps in making a product. As for 24/7 production, I don't know. ------- Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2001 11:58:29 -0800 From: "Nicholas Carter and Felice Luftschein" Subject: Re: Of all the Taig CNC mill owners..... > ----Original Message Follows---- > From: Tom Benedict > Reply-To: taigtoolsx~xxegroups.com > To: taigtoolsx~xxegroups.com > Subject: Re: [taigtools] Of all the Taig CNC mill owners..... > Date: Mon, 1 Jan 2001 17:02:10 -0600 (CST) > How many of you have ever charged for your work? I charge for work all the time. I have made a number of tools and jigs with the Taig and sold them to other craftspeople at the market I do. I also machine part of the index plate kits I make on the Taig. On My jet 920, which many people deride, I have made back at least twice the cost of the lathe by spinning aluminum parts for another craftsperson. The main thing is to get good at estimating time, and make sure you get from $25-$50 an hour for your work. The biggest job was making a grinding jig for my best customer, it was about 15 hours of work, I got $500, all material was scrap, and I used every machine in my shop, including the shaper. ------- Date: Tue, 02 Jan 2001 19:20:05 From: batwingsx~xxi-plus.net Subject: Re: Of all the Taig CNC mill owners..... At 06:25 PM 1/1/01 -0700, you wrote: >How many of you have ever charged for your work? Isn't this question a bit naive? The country was built on honest labor and expectation of fair return. Of course that includes a lot of twisting on the theme but it's still valid. Skilled machinists draw salary in range of $14-25/hr. Shops which have to support fixed expenses usually charge twice or more as much as the upper figure. I've seen bike shops charge that and motorcycle and auto dealers would laugh at less. Sure you don't have huge overhead with a little lathe in corner of hobby room but you do have an investment, and recovering it is perfectly OK. Not only that but your paying customers will in the end buy you new and bigger machines if you like. I've had a lathe for almost twenty years now. It paid for itself in a few months. Nobody I worked for expected to get the jobs free and except for a few close friends on occasions, nobody ever has. It's not only money out of pocket if I don't charge, it's giving away a slice of my lifetime. I can use that time to spend with wife and daughter, or I can use the money earned to farther their life's prospects. I'm semi-retired and losing money in stock market like everyone else now, and we have no big expenses. The shop rate is at $24/hr because we don't need much extra income and everything in shop is paid. But it's still income and can't ignore it. You guys shouldn't either. Maybe part of this is uncertainty about how to proceed with bids and biz. You can do it scientifically, perhaps based on your normal work rate, or you can set some figure that feels right to your conscience. I picked one I knew would compare well with other shops in area and in the nation. By now I can look at job and fit it into categories which I've done before. Usually I guesstimate it a bit high relative to the expected time, and I inform clients it won't go over that. Usually that's still far better than anyone else and I do rebate sometimes if I make a killing. For unusual jobs, you need to make an op sheet detailing everything that has to be done and guess each element in it. That can be quite detailed; I list things in increments as short as fractional minutes on long jobs or production. I add in special tools too, 100% of their cost even though I may use them in future myself. I don't include electricity, lube, sometimes materials (make a lot of stuff from scrap or salvege) and ordinary tools even if consumed. Where do jobs come from? Look at tagline. We get 100% of our biz from those three URLs and most of it from the first one. We don't even advertise locally, don't care to be swamped with college kids MC tuneups and there are plenty of job shops to compete with. I try to keep it centered on machining, esp specialized repair and renovation and mostly for racing. People give up hobbies last when times get rough! In effect we have carved a niche and it was based on activity I've been engaged in since '65, the motorcycles thing. But it didn't take that long; the URLs went up no more than a couple years ago and in the first part-time year cleared over $10000. You may not all have the same deep interest in a hobby or avocation and probably won't make as much on a Taig. But you should all give it some thought. Offering the pens some of you make, for example, or as I mentioned before, making parts for pen kits. Horology is another place to look for jobs. There's model-making; seems to be a big field itself. Many of these builders don't have their own machines. What worked for me is taking time to participate in discussions in groups in which I have deep interest. Once you come across as someone who is helpful and informed the URLs will do the rest. An example is this very list. I'm not into pens and clocks, but I do have a product that could be of interest to many of you. That's the CNC thing, either software or conversions. It's not the entirety of what brought me here or I wouldn't have been making suggestions about machining or even writing this note. For that matter I'd like to see you all into CNC and would support that for free to large degree; it's just so much more fun with complete flexibility of the software, instead of twiddling dials and scratch-pad calcs. >partially support itself so much the better. I also do some gear cutting for >model railroaders making replacement gears for locomotives that cannot be Exactly. I can program my mill to cut gears using routines invented for something else, or at worst make a little source code change. And if it's easy to make one, it's easy to make several. And that being in the same setup too, either as a stack on a mandrel or in the solid bar, to be sliced and hubbed later. It almost always pays to batch stuff because your customer's friend is going to ask next. >miscellaneous gizmos. I find if I am not careful I can be buried with >freebee work leaving no time for my own projects. You can be buried in paying work too. I am right now. Regards, Hoyt Belfab CNC - http://www.freeyellow.com/members/belfab/belfab.html Best MC Repair - http://www.freeyellow.com/members/batwings/best.html Camping/Caving - http://www.freeyellow.com/members/batwings/caving.html Welcome to the new millenium!! ------- Date: Wed, 03 Jan 2001 05:32:17 -0800 From: James Eckman Subject: Re: Working Keep a logbook of jobs, including key setups and the amount of time spent. This will help you with estimating. A really good example of workflow and time estimates is Smith's Advanced Machine Work from Lindsay. http://pages.prodigy.net/fugu/metal.html Good luck! Jim Eckman ------- Date: Wed, 03 Jan 2001 09:17:00 -0500 From: Ken Jenkins Subject: Re: Sailboat mod pricing > How would you price these out? By the time I'm done I'll probably have > several tens of hours tied up generating the toolpaths, making the jigs, > etc. The shop time, per set, will be a few hours at most. The total > number of customers should be well under 100. I've never done freelance machining. Shops typically charge from $25-$50 per hour depending on where in the country you are. However, I have done quite a bit of freelance programming in my day. I used to teach digital electronics at the college level and during the summers ran my own custom application software company. I took on a lot of different jobs (sales analysis for a printing company, quality control for a casting company, a robotic assembly line trainer for Jeep (that was fun, surrounded with 30 sets of Fisher-Technic for several months - FT is like Lego Technic to the next level, etc.) ... anyway I used to just work backward. The first question to ask yourself is WHY AM I DOING THIS? If the answer is something other than "to make money", then skip the next section and go have fun! Turns out there are lots of other reasons for doing things other than "for money" and the important thing is not to fool yourself into thinking you're doing something you're not. 1. If I do this what is the minimum amount/hr which makes this desirable to do? i.e. "If I can't make $_____ then forget it. 2. What will the market bear? This is still a capitalist economy (you will notice the number of dead .com's by the side of the road as a testament to this fact). 3. What are my expenses per/unit? Raw materials, consumable supplies, power, heat, etc. (some of this is a guess ... I've worked for huge companies who don't know any more about exactly how much it costs to make a product than you will ... in fact less ... they guess ... sometimes wrongly). Also don't forget packaging, an instruction manual for installation of your retrofit kit (getting this right will take 10 times longer than physically machining the kits!), shipping/handling, etc. And don't forget advertising and promotion, if you intend to sell these kits people need to know about them. This probably means a print ad in a "model sailboat" publication, etc. 4. Figure a minimum run ... say 10 sets? whatever .... You say you have a feel for how long it will take to machine out a set. Ok, now do the math. Multiply hours, divide expenses, etc., etc. 5. If the $ profit amount/hour is somewhere about 1/2 way between #1 and 2 above then it might work out for you. Anything else ... forget it and go race your boat! Ken ------- Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2001 14:53:13 -0800 From: "Craig Libuse" Subject: Re: becoming a dealer? Dear John, Anyone with a way to sell Sherline tools can become a dealer. There is no up-front purchase required and no minimum sale or annual sales requirement. Dealer applicants should submit a letter by mail or fax on their business letterhead to our General manager, Charla Papp. (Fax 760-727-7857) In the letter state briefly how you intend to market Sherline tools; i.e., store, mail order, web site, flea markets, etc. Include a copy of your local business license and/or tax resale license if required in your area. We are interested in people who will be good representatives of the tools and offer good support to their customers with prompt responses and good bookkeeping. We are trying to avoid people who are just looking to buy one machine at "dealer price", as it takes some effort on our part to set up and maintain records on a dealer. Dealers who sell over $1000.00 (retail) of product can be listed on our Internet dealer list with a free link to their web site if they have one. Applicants receive a dealer info package detailing dealer discounts and company policies upon approval. Net 30-day credit is also available if you include 3 business references and a bank reference. Otherwise, purchases can be made by credit card, check or money order. For full details, see our web page at www.sherline.com/newdlr.htm. Sincerely Yours, Craig Libuse Marketing Director ------- Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2001 00:15:49 EST From: jgboothacwx~xxaol.com Subject: Re: to buy sherline mini on ebay or the dealers or the factory is ... Hi Craig et al, Thanx for your comments on Sherline's presence on eBay. I have had several customers come to me after losing a bid on eBay. I would like to caution others about your comments about contacting losing bidders on your auctions. I posted a lathe package for sale a while ago and after the auction I contacted the losing bidders to let them know of my regular sale prices. A couple people appreciated the info and a couple others resented the "unwanted solicitation" and reported me to eBay for "spamming" them. I've discontinued this practice and others should be cautious. Greg Booth Loretto, MN Antique Clockworks, Ltd. Sherline Products Dealer ------- Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 22:51:06 -0000 From: alicemcrittendenx~xxnetscape.net Subject: Any Senior Artisans/Crafters? Hi everyone, I am a new member to this list. I would like to introduce myself a bit and mention why I am here. I need the help of the crafting/artisan network. I am wondering if anyone on this listserv is a senior artisan or crafter? In other words, are you or any crafter or artisan 50 or older? I am a member of a national non- profit group (Green Thumb, Inc.) which has a website to assist senior artisans and crafters sell their products. This project is not part of any commercial effort for us to benefit from, nor are we out to make a profit. We are actually here to help senior artisans sell their products. I will be cross posting this message to other lists. I do hope that I am not posting incorrectly. As I said, we are here to help. A little information follows below. Geezer.com (http://www.geezer.com) is a distinctive recently launched Internet e-commerce website featuring products of senior artisans for the artisans. As a one of a kind site, Geezer.com offers online shoppers the handiwork of seniors from cities, towns, village and hamlets all across the country. The site brings the unique products of America's seniors to people who don't regularly travel the back roads. Shoppers looking for unusual gifts and accessories will find them right here. We are giving seniors across the country the opportunity to supplement their income, launch new businesses, and expand the market for their handcrafted goods. This will not be a dotbomb.com site because it is funded by a federal grant. Please take ONE or TWO of the following actions. 1) Please help spread the word to interested senior artisans 2) Please visit the site (www.geezer.com) 3) Shop at Geezer.com to help senior artisans 4) Link our site to your site. 5) Write about or link to Geezer.com in your local areas(please contact me) To sign up as a Senior Artisan go to http://www.geezer.com/signup.html To buy at Handcrafted Quality Craft Products go to Go to http://www.Geezer.com For more information call toll Free 1-877-803-1468. The number is our Geezer.com service center number. It is operated by seniors in Texas. Thanks for listening, I hope to hear from some of you on the list or off list. Sincerely, Alice Crittenden Green Thumb National Office Alice M. Crittenden, for Geezer.com 2000 N. 14th Street, Suite 800 Arlington, VA. 22201 Telephone: 703-522-7272. Fax: 703-522-0141 Alice_crittendenx~xxgreenthumb.org P.S. On 5/23/01, an affiliate of FOX TV in Austin, Texas aired a spot about Geezer.com (no cost) during their morning show! They had 2.4 million viewers at that time. Also, Geezer.com, is currently featured as a related link in this week's U.S. News & World Report cover story, "Retirement Guide 2001: Here Come the Zoomers" on usnews.com. You'll find the Geezer.com link in the right hand corner of the news article at www.usnews.com/usnews/issue/010604/finance/culture.htm This page gets about 1.2 million internet hits per month, (no cost) ------- Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 13:49:16 -1000 (HST) From: Tom Benedict Subject: Pricing your work I've asked questions along these lines in terms of job shop rates, and have a pretty good idea how I'd charge for my time under those conditions. But this is a more specific question: I'm working on a small model engine design. This is by far the most complicated thing I've undertaken to date (though people doing multi-cylinder IC engines would probably laugh long and hard if they saw it.) I've got enough materials to make four of them, which I fully intend to do. I'm planning on keeping one, giving a second to a friend, and selling the other two to help offset the cost of materials. Any idea how much to charge? I'd apply the $25/hour + materials, but I'd be afraid the cost would come out at an unreasonably high figure (though I'm admittedly a poor judge of what "reasonable" is.) Halp! Tom ------- Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 23:55:52 -0000 From: "Robin S." Subject: Re: Pricing your work Is the product you're making available for sale currently? You may want to price it similarly with these off-the-shelf products, assuming it performs similarly. Producing parts in very small quantities is exceptionally expensive compared to mass-producing them. However, time on a custom machine specifically made to hog out engine blocks is significantly more expensive than on a machine worth less than a grand run by someone who is, perhaps, not exactly a professional (certainly no offence intended). Things to keep in mind... Regards, Robin ------- Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 19:20:18 -0700 (PDT) From: "Chris V." Subject: Re: Re: Pricing your work I agree with all of Robin's thoughts. I create custom modified yo-yos for people, it's my small side business to fund my addiction...I mean hobby ;) The thing I took into account most was the price of other products comparable to mine. The price for a high performance/high quality yoyo is about $40, but they are mass produced. It takes me about 2 hours average to complete a yoyo. Based on that I charge $10 per half-hour + materials. Works out really well and I am still competitively priced with mass produced products. Many people are willing to pay $50+ for a custom made yoyo. Just charge what you think YOUR time is worth. Chris ------- Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2003 13:59:11 -0000 From: "Robin S." Subject: Re: Pricing your work Everything that costs must be paid for. The building, the electricity, the water, the bathroom cleaning supplies, the coffee, insurance (for the building, machines and people), software, cutters, time, etc. However, most here have *real* jobs and do this just for fun. At that point, material, time and maybe cutters are about the only things that cost. Regards, Robin ------- Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2003 11:23:23 -0700 From: "Nicholas Carter and Felice Luftschein" Subject: Re: Re: Pricing your work This is one of the most difficult things to figure out. I generally charge depending on who the person is. A good friend I charge nothing for simple quick jobs, and I usually trade or just have them pay me what they think it's worth on bigger jobs. Remember, this is a Good Friend, the kind you would throw yourself on a hand grenade for. A run of the mill friend I usually charge about $25.00 an hour, but don't do jobs that take very long, if they are poor, I charge them what they make an hour. But I only do these jobs if I have time, which I don't so much anymore. For commercial jobs, friend or no, I charge about $50-$60 an hour, plus any tooling I have to buy. For customers who just bought a bunch of stuff from me, I will do simple jobs for about $25 an hour, especially if they haven't a chance in hell of doing it right (like making endmill holders, or t-nuts for the mill) If I am doing an ongoing job, I bid based on what it should take me in time once I get it going right - I eat the extra cost of prototype-learning as long as I am guaranteed a bunch of parts to make. The hummingbird feeder parts I make used to take me about 15 minutes, and I get $5.00 a set of parts, but now it takes me about 5 minutes, so I make a good $60+ an hour when making them. I have done thousands of these though, the tooling is already made, etc. A good way to see how serious a person is is to give them a comprehensive quote. See our web pages http://www.cartertools.com/nfhome.html ------- Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2003 14:22:02 -1000 (HST) From: Tom Benedict Subject: Re: Re: Pricing your work If I had to order special tooling, I'd definitely charge it. But wear and tear on my lathe bits and mills I kinda wrap up into the hourly rate (which I've charged all of about two times, so this is all very tongue-in-cheek.) Setup's charged at the hourly rate, and jigs and fixtures are charged as time+materials. Tom ------- Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2003 19:04:54 -0400 From: "Statman Designs, LLC" Subject: Re: Hairpin turns on the road to success / was Oxide thicknesses for a non-beginner While getting my Ph.D. in Chemical Engineering our lab had a professional machinist and a full machine shop with 2 mills, 2 lathes, surface grinder, welder, and an AMAZING professional machinist just for our group of two students. So I learned the art of machining from a true craftsman. After graduating I took a job as a professor teaching analytical chemistry and chemical engineering. I would use the machine shops occasionally to make parts for my lab classes, but really didn't do too much. Then I got engaged and I thought it would be cool to make my own wedding ring, and I am the cheapest bastard you will ever meet. I thought titanium would be cool, and I could inlay it with gold. I used the schools machine shop and made my ring. Everybody I showed it to thought it was very nice, but what are they going to say? I liked it and would talk about it and show people. Then friends started wanting me to make rings for them, and then friends of friends. The university kicked me off their lathes when I was spending too much time in the machine shop. So I bought a Sherline lathe and put up a website. Now I make jewelry for a living. I use all aspects of my education, and would never have been able to invent the process and make the machines and design my pieces without my background. Daniel J. Statman, Statman Designs www.statmandesigns.com dan.statmanx~xxrennlist.com ------- Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2003 00:14:34 -0400 From: "ori " Subject: CNC Market... Let's say you have your Taig Mill. You have your software. You have your raw materials. Also, you have the know-how. So.. how do you go about getting those 1st clients? How do you market your services or products? I'm not talking about "Do great work 'cause word of mouth advertising is the best" -- that is true, but is not a way to get the 1st set of clients. It's a way to get more clients and to keep current ones. For example here's how I got mine in graphics/video I get a lot of business by word of mouth as I produce top-notch work. This is in reference to graphic design, 3d animation, compositing, and video editing. The way I got started is back in '95-'96 I was working at CompUSA (Ugh-- did that suck), and I was doing a lot of reading in magazines to learn about graphics and 3d. At the time I wanted to do 3d animation. A guy walked into the store and asked about graphics and about upgrading his computer-- everyone referred him to me, as no one else in the store seemed to know anything. I answered in detail, and he said he has a studio, and I can come learn a thing or 2 if I upgrade his computer for him. I did the upgrade, and it was a very cool studio. I learned a little bit of 2d graphics there, taught myself some more 3d. I was going to go to school in California to learn Softimage 3d, and when we the whole studio plus some friends of everyone's went to see Jurassic Park 2, I met a guy who owns Softimage and a studio. When I got back from Cali, I started doing some work for that guy. The video editor left there, and I had to learn video editing to cover the slack. I learned it, and learned that it can save a ton of time with animation... being able to edit your mistakes out, etc... Did more work, and met more clients. When the company folded (long story, but the guy who's company it was (not the one who brought me into the company, he's cool) is lazy, and didn't want to try and sell to new clients), a lot of the clients kept calling up and *someone* had to handle the work :). I was able to handle it, bought some of my own gear, and the rest is history / word of mouth. Then I had a demo artist job for a Discreet Logic reseller. Demo'ed 3dsMax, Discreet Edit*, Combustion*, Smoke*, and Alias Maya (I know that's not made by Discreet)-- and anything that I demo'ed, I usually got to teach as well. That was a great way to get new clients. People would buy the software, buy some training, and then just realize that 3d/video isn't always as easy as the demo artist makes it seem... so... they'd call and ask if I can just come in and do some more projects for them. That was a few of the ways that I got my "first" clients. The rest is word of mouth. Once I had some clients, I had a portfolio. I posted my work on my website, made some business cards, and was able to just tell people about what I do when I'm out at parties, bars, or anywhere. "Oh.. you make Widgets?? That's great.. Do you have a commercial for your widgets? No? I can make you a commercial, business card, website, and training DVD for your widget. Here's my card." *shrug* That's probably more writing than everyone wanted- but that's my history of how I got started and got my clients. So... how'd you get yours? How would you recommend for someone who's new in the business or wants to get into the business? ------- Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2003 19:42:22 -1000 (HST) From: Tom Benedict Subject: Re: CNC Market... > "Oh.. you make Widgets?? That's great.. Do you have a commercial for > your widgets? No? I can make you a commercial, business card, website, > and training DVD for your widget. Here's my card." You just answered part of your question. Not that I've sold enough from my shop to say I'm making money at it, but I think you've got a couple of good ideas already. One is to explore it as an outreach of what you already do. You've listed a couple of potential clients whose projects are a natural extension of your 3D graphics work. The Taig tools produce small detailed work well. Some of the examples you've already come up with fit the bill perfectly. Take that ring idea, for example. Wear it to the next party. If you're doing engraving, slip an engraved brass or aluminum plate in your wallet. If they're thin, slip in a couple. Then replay that conversation: "Oh.. you're an animator?? That's great.. I imagine you've already got a demo set up, and if you don't I may be able to help you out there since I do video. But do you have miniatures for any of your characters? No? I can make you one if you're interested. Here, take a look at this ring. That's the kind of detail I can get out of my tools. Oh, I do engraving, too. Here's my card. Yeah, I made that, too." Tom ------- Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 22:48:53 -0000 From: "Charles Hixon" Subject: Re: Home Buisness > Is anyone running a machine business out of their home? > I was wondering if there were any problems with > setting one up as far as local zoning I am not an attorney and can only speak from from my residential door to door experience. Why would you be telling anyone? Be discrete, blend in, consider it a hobby, rent a P.O.Box, get a cell phone, report any extra income. If and when you project a real cash flow, it's time to rent a small garage space in an industrial park or a corner of your local machine shop or where ever, find an attorney, accountant, and banker. Lots of folks will not tolerate the personal and financial risks involved, so you have to have the right attitude for it to work. Charles Hixon ------- Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 18:20:02 -0400 From: "Rick Wenrich" Subject: Re: Home Buisness I think that you can probably get away with calling it a hobby instead of a business. You are allowed to make money at your hobby. As long as you don't have employees you should be ok. It's really taxes you need to worry about. Now, if you start having trucks dropping things off at your house it might be different. Rick -------- Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2003 13:06:23 -0400 From: Ken Jenkins Subject: Re: Home business I think it's mainly a matter of "traffic, noise and pollution". My son runs his php programming business out of our home, but the only thing going in and out is billions of electrons which he rearranges into certain patterns :-) and a few UPS trucks every now and again bearing more more computer hardware. There's almost no noise associated (unless his system crashes in the middle of something important ... in which case I usual remark to my wife, "Hey, I never taught him those words!!!). If however, you don't run a compressor all day, or a plasma torch and you don't have lots of customers (foot traffic and parking issues) coming and going or, as Rick mentioned, trucks coming and going on a continual basis, why in the world would your neighbors know or care? Zoning should protect the interests of the community in the zone from experiencing some type of "loss" based on the singular interests of a single individual in that zone. In your case if there's no noise and no excessive traffic and no pollution .... who loses? Just make sure your company is set up properly and you pay your taxes. My 2 cents, not to be misconstrued as any type of "legal advice" Ken J. ------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2003 08:27:01 -0800 From: "Marcus and Eva" Subject: Re: Re: liability Original Message ----- From: "Charles Hixon" To: Sent: Thursday, November 06, 2003 6:44 AM Subject: [sherline] Re: 3/32 steel rod > Fasteners are made to designated ASTM/SAE/JIS, etc. specifications > and identified by grade in accordance with specifications. If you > make a fastener that does not consider industry standards, you don't > want to take any chances that it will circulate in the public. If > it fails and can be traced back to you, you may have a liability. > If the fastener is made to industry standards, you can easily defend > a failure - to the point of deflecting any claims. > You can make your own proprietary fasteners that cannot possibly be > interchangeable with any other mechanical component. This will help > prevent unauthorized public distribution, but you are still liable > for failures of the assembly if you didn't consider the concepts > behind the industry standards. > 12L14 is not a material recognized for use in fasteners, primarily > because of it's poor resistance to impact loading. > Charles Hixon Hi Charles: Unfortunately, you bring up a very good point. We often neglect this in our enthusiasm, but the lawyer boys will never let go of it once they get their claws in. I say "unfortunately" obviously because it restricts the scope of what we can do with impunity, and raises the spectre of accountability in some pretty unpleasant ways that lots of us blithely don't consider until we get clobbered. One of my buddies builds custom bicycle parts for BMX bikes. I shudder every time he brings by a new ultra light titanium axle; copies of which have just been sold to all his riding buddies. Another of my buddies is engaged on a project that involves temperatures in the 1000 degree and pressures in the 3500 PSI range; and he's using plumbing fittings from Home Depot and Canadian Tire. I don't go downstairs to his shop when he and his friends are working on it anymore...I just can't stand the strain. I recently built, together with yet another buddy, a laser engraver for a commercial customer. The safety specifications would curl your hair, and the documentation burden was truly awesome!!! This was a low wattage CO2 laser...a sheet of plexiglass in front of it was perfectly adequate from a purely technical point of view...in fact, the previous vendor had done just that! Needless to say, this didn't go over too well (aside from the fact that they never did get the code to work). Thanks Charles, for bringing it up...you're right on! Cheers Marcus ------- Date: Fri, 8 Oct 2004 08:51:26 -0700 From: "David" Subject: Re: Re: Magnetic chuck body - now ER20 collet chuck [sherline group] > I don't > have the health or financial resources to go commercial with this > stuff. I also don't have the incination to be an entrepreneuer. I'm > having fun, and I don't want to be bothered with schedules, > committments, and all the rest of the shit that goes with being > a "businessman." Been there, done that, and now it's time for > something new. You got that absolutely right. I almost got trapped in the pen thing. Made one for my wife; she took it to work; her best friend wanted one; then another one wanted one for her husband; etc. Wound up the last week of November with orders for 200 pens. Although I got paid (handsomely) for it, it stopped being fun. Dave Wood ------- NOTE TO FILE: For a lot of folks, turning pens may soon transform from a hobby to a business. Consequently there are some business ideas and problems in the Turning Pens text file that any small business operator will find interesting. And don't forget to have fun, in hobbies or in business. ------- Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2004 12:25:59 -0000 From: "broken003" Subject: Making parts/ Legal liability In this day and age with lawsuits abounding. Has anybody looked into protecting yourself from legal action for the products that you made/make? I'm getting ready to sell a product which if defective could cause personal injury property damage (but what products couldn't). Can anyone recommend how to go about protecting myself from money hungry people? Thanks Mark ------- Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2004 08:27:52 -0400 From: "Baughman, Ray A." Subject: RE: Making parts/ Legal liability Mark, there is only one way to protect yourself from a lawsuit. Don't make the product. Ray ------- Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2004 14:49:04 -0000 From: "Ed Chesnut" Subject: Re: Making parts/ Legal liability Ray nailed it. For maximum risk reduction, don't make the part. At the other end of the continuum - maximum risk, make the part out of inferior materials with poor workmanship with inadequate engineering to back up the design (add any other BAAAAAAD ways to go about it you can think of). To put yourself some where in the middle of the continuum of risk management, you'll want to consider the following items: Engineering Testing to a recognized safety standard (UL ?) Top Quality materials (retain documentation) Quality Control Inspection program (maintain documentation of inspections) Serial numbering of parts (to maintain ties to documentation of materials and inspection) Incorporation Liability insurance etc. etc. etc. Is there enough profit potential to make the whole project worthwhile? And worth the effort to attain the desired level of liability protection? Ed ------- Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2004 09:07:52 -0700 (PDT) From: Tyler Jones Subject: RE: Making parts/ Legal liability Well if it is a good product you may want to do it anyway so here are some hints: -Look around and see what your competitors are doing. Call them and tell them you are a MBA student doing research for a paper and they may open up and tell you a lot more then they should. -Consider the type product. Making machine guns carries with it nearly as many regulations as medical devices. -Get an attorney to help you figure out the best form of business (I would recommend a LLC) and insurance you will need. -Create the business as an entity in itself so no one can go after you as a person. -Keep records! Not only because you will have to pay taxes every 4 months on everything from stock to machines you use, but also maintenance records on your equipment, quality control, and "all such things." -Most of all be very aware about your obligations to the government. Pay your taxes, keep up your insurance, and file all the paperwork required. The government is inflexible and very unforgiving! -All you need now is a business plan and money. For more information contact the SBA (http://www.sbaonline.sba.gov/) and SCORE (http://www.score.org/). They will be able to help you out a lot after you have your business plan. If you think you can just make a product and sell it on eBay you will be left wide open for personal lawsuits. If you have the idea of making a AR-15 receiver without permission by the ATF you will face 7 years incarceration. I can not overstate the magnitude a business plan has. It should be your starting point and it may show you that you have no market and you stop right there. If you still believe in your product the business plan will focus you and help you stay on track. You can download a template business plan from Microsoft's website. Thank You, Tyler ------- Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2004 20:50:01 -0000 From: "dhkoizumi" Subject: Re: Making parts/ Legal liability You might try to use a "Hold Harmless" waiver. Many products are sold with this -- stuff like Nitrous Oxide systems which are notorious for blowing up engines. Most of the problems with nitrous are due to inexperience and abuse, but there are still plenty of kids who seem more than willing to learn the hard way... That said, NOTHING you can get your clients to sign will nullify their right to sue you. But, a signed waiver at least lets your clients know the risks involved ahead of time and sets expectations accordingly. As long as you can show due diligence in engineering and producing the part, a hold harmless waiver may offer some degree of protection. ------- Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2004 18:08:16 -0400 From: Ken Jenkins Subject: Re: Lawsuits & Protection Well I'm not a lawyer ... but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express! 1. Set your company up as an LLC (limited liability corporation) if you can. That helps to separate YOUR assets from the company's assets. 2. Have a good insurance policy. Sometimes you can get a blanket $1,000,000 or so on top of an existing policy (even a home owner's policy). Insurance companies don't like to pay claims. They fight very hard not to. 3. Put all the disclaimers and instructions and warnings etc. possible on your product ... however .... none of that will keep people from suing you nor will it keep you from losing in court. With the wrong lawyer/jury combination anything can happen. If you manufacture ashtrays now-a-days you could find yourself sued because someone picked it up and smacked themselves in the head with it and your warning literature didn't strictly warn them against it. But at least you can say, "I tried as hard as I could to explain the risks involved and to make the proper usage as clear as possible." Ken ------- Date: Sat, 2 Jul 2005 10:52:05 -0700 From: "Felice Luftschein and Nicholas Carter" Subject: Re: Money Making Projects with Mill [taigtools group] > Does anyone use their mill to make money? I have a few Ideas but I > don't know if my little taig is up to making multiples of the same part > over and over. Depends how much money? I make an index plate for the Taig lathe with my mill, I have probably paid for half of it with the plates over the last three years. I have used it to make dies for stamping jewelry thet probably paid for the other half. There are some pics on my pages of some people who have made good money making Paintball and motorcycle parts, and jewelry. It's not a production tool but with the right product and the right expectations you can make parts for sale that will give you a profit. (if you can market them, pay overhead, etc, etc). If you do production then you need to stay on top of backlash - running the mill constantly will wear the screws in, also balance the wear by moving the parts around on the table. Keep it lubed and happy. A look through my picture section and the Taig user pages on my site will show the extremely wide breadth of projects done on the Taig mill or lathe. Check out our homepage www.cartertools.com/nfhome.html ------- Date: Mon, 04 Jul 2005 08:02:39 -0000 From: "tajhead" Subject: Re: Money Making Projects with Mill I have been making tools to drain helicopter gearboxes for about 4 years now on my Taig lathe and Sherline mill. I have made 20 or 30 of the same item numerous times within a day or two and the machines come out faring better than I. The only problem with making money with tools you bought for a hobby is that the hobby part of it can be left behind. I have a lot of hobby project sitting on the shelf as I fill orders. So I have actually had to schedule "Hobby Time" in. So much to do, so little time. Not that I am trying to scare anyone off making money on their tools, you just have to remember that if you bought them for a hobby, don't forget the hobby part. bryan H. ------- Date: Tue, 05 Jul 2005 22:23:24 -0000 From: "jdholbrook33" Subject: Re: Money Making Projects with Mill In taigtools "jdholbrook33" wrote: > > I have probably paid for my mill, lathe and tooling a couple of In taigtools "rpetrick2002"wrote: > I logged onto your site. Looks like some pretty good stuff. Picking > one part more or less at random: > GWS EPS 300/350 gearbox single 22.7mm stator mount - $8.00 > How long does it take to machine this part? How much in raw material > (including wastage)? How long to dismount the finished part, clean > the swarf, and remount another blank? > I'm not trying to be nosy, just curious. Can you pay for labor, > machine, and materials and still turn a profit at $8.00 per part? Robert On the Stator mounts. They are actually two piece. I buy the base from a machine shop, machine the tubes then press them together with Loctite 609. I can make 30 tubes in an hour. Material cost is $0.07 each with very little wastage. My bandsaw blade is 0.8mm thick and I can get 11 tubes per foot of stock at $0.62 a foot. The Turret tailstock is a lifesaver. If I pay myself $20 per hour then my cost for a complete mount is $2.82 so I am not making a killing on an $8.00 mount but it's fun. I can make the bases myself and have made a few to custom specs for customers. They are actually easier to make than the tubes so I would guess I could make them for $1.00 to $1.50 each due to higher cost of material and more wastage. Most time consuming part is tapping the two holes. I just picked up a Tapmatic off Ebay and will be trying that in my drill press. All in all I've had a great time, learned a lot and made some new friends. What more could you ask for? James ------- Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2005 03:14:47 -0000 From: "jensen_remote" Subject: Making products with the Taig Mill Hello everyone, A while ago there was a thread about projects using the Taig mill which could be sold (i.e., to make a little profit). Well, I've been working on it for a few months, and this is my answer to that question: neon tube clocks. You can see the site I just set up at www.tubeclock.com. All the enclosures are milled out with the Taig. Obviously, there is a significant electronics component as well, but the job just couldn't be done without the mill. I have a prototype of a wood enclosure in addition to the aluminum enclosure shown on the site. I sure do love using this mill, and in a few months I hope it will have paid for itself :) I just wanted to share, and to thank the collective taigtools group for all the help I've gotten here in the past. Now I have to find the next project... any ideas? :) Best Regards, Peter ------- Date: Sat, 03 Dec 2005 19:18:27 -0600 From: "paul schobernd" Subject: RE: [OldTools] Too precious? As a Newbie here I will stick my neck out in public. It seems to me that the dilemma you mention is not too uncommon and I believe the answer is ==both & and== when it comes to bread labor. When I first made dulcimers for sale I wanted them to be perfect, made of the highest quality woods by hand methods alone. I can do that, but it's like my old homestead eggs that cost me $3 a dozen to produce at home back in the late 70s. They were worth it to me, but I had a difficult time getting anybody to pay me for them! I can make you a very serviceable solid wood dulcimer for $85 or I can make you a handmade masterpiece for $500 We all gotta eat and sometimes that means doing the work as best we know how in a way that will allow us to have a saleable product and to make a profit. It doesn't mean that we can't be true to ourselves and our aspirations and values. It just means that we have to have some flexibility in our approach. You start, I think, by letting your head see the world in all of its wonderful grey continuum. Most situations are not black or white so you get to choose the appropriate mix of technology, materials and craftsmanship in any given situation. High technology and tailed apprentices may not be appropriate for this list, but this list is only part of life. An example. I knew a man who had built himself the grandest shop you ever saw--huge beams, vast spaces even a cupola on top to stargaze while the glue was drying. He stocked it with only the finest wood, no plyw%%d here! Then he said I will make only the finest products with no compromise. Long story short, once his initial work ran out he was in debt, out of business and out of fine woodworking. Too bad for him and the world because he was an extremely gifted artist in wood. But, he was also too rigid to recognize the realities of making a living. Not everybody can afford the finest of the finest and sometimes plain old 2 X 4s are good enough for a given job. Fine old tools are both art as in form follows function and practical ways to do a job. If you love those tools they are not a waste of time. They may just not be appropriate for every bread labor job you do. Most of my fine old tools have never made me one bit richer, but that is not how my living was made most of the time. In this case they are not overhead, but enhancements from my discretional income. Our real goal is to make a life and making a living is a big part of that. When our living is secure we have time and money to bring high quality workmanship and our best old tools to our projects that we may not have been able to bring to every bread labor job. This is when we get to do Heart Labor. Here we can stretch ourselves and indulge our passions to make great things that please our heart and soul as well as our brain. We still have to make shelves for SWMBO and you can try and win her over to your dream of workmanship, but if she wants some place to put her latest jars of pickled cauliflower and the sauerkraut, expediency rules. One last thought occurs to me. Is there someplace you could move where people would pay you to use your finest skills and tools to do your work? I am woefully ignorant of the wood boat market. There, I have now told you everything I know. So, I'll go have my warm milk and take a nap, before I start sharpening my old tools and some knives for the hotel---where Norm and St.Roy create hand-in-hand! Paul Schobernd ------- Date: Sat, 3 Dec 2005 22:32:59 -0600 From: "genfurn" Subject: Re: [OldTools] Too precious? I have struggled with this question many times in the last few years as I try to make a living building custom furniture. I got into this business out of a desire to build really nice furniture and offer quality as an option to the termite barf-based stuff available in the furniture stores. Entered into the business with the idea that hand tool work would be a huge selling point to a client. I am sure that to some clients, the allure of furniture made by hand tools would be strong. Unfortunately, I haven't found many of those clients. Most people with whom I deal want quality and are pleased with the fact that this is *their* specific hand-built piece of furniture. But, and this is a huge but, (no pun intended) they also don't want to spend a great deal more just because it was made without electron-killing devices. So, as others have said and will say again, it is a balance. There is a definite place for hand tools in my business. There is also such a thing as pride being overkill when the client won't know the difference. Indeed, if you have the opportunity to examine some of the really old fine antiques, what is seen is beautiful. Often, what is not seen would almost appear to have been worked with a dull hatchet. This does not detract from the fact that the piece is beautiful, but does give the thinking craftsman a different perspective from which to view his work. I work in a specific way, knowing that sometimes I put a little extra effort in a place that will never be seen just because I know it is there. I also know that there is a time when that effort simply cannot happen because I have to get the job done and it in no way affects the beauty or serviceability of what I have built. I also have a great admiration for the old timers who seemed to get an awful lot done with plane irons sharpened on a stone that looked like a very old horse's back. There is much to be said for the ability to achieve good work without too much fanfare. Fancy tools, flat benches, scary sharp tools and a brace for every bit you own is all nice, but the essence of good workmanship and quality work is the ability to do the job with less than ideal circumstances. Please don't misunderstand. I really enjoy my hand tools. Too many saws, planes and braces grace my workshop. But in the final analysis, the volume of tools available will never determine the quality of my work. Only my skill level with the tools needed will do that That being said, knowing when enough is enough doesn't come easily. You learn it over years of practice. Frankly, I'm still learning. And that is the way it should be. Just my opinion, YMMV G'night All, and may you have a wonderful Sunday. Bruce Z Kearney, MO ------- Date: Sun, 4 Dec 2005 10:25:46 -0500 From: "Charlie Driggs" Subject: Re: [OldTools] Too precious? (long response) This discussion seems to me to go to the heart of what the Porch debates in so many ways. We ask a bunch of questions of each other that all go to these points. What is the best tool for this job? What is the best tool of its type? How much time should I spend on getting an edge --should I be able to shave my arm without even feeling it or can the skin feel just the tiniest of pulls? How long should it take to make a _____? Why favor handtools over electron burners? For a production shop doing the same thing over and over in high volume, I have little doubt that machines are the way to go for many tasks -- especially if they can be computer controlled to produce uniform dimensions. But that isn't the kind of work I ever want to do, and more importantly, using those tools introduces safety issues that cannot be ignored. (A personal experience with a screaming demon drawing blood confirmed that, and I thought I was following all the safety rules.) I had thought for close to a decade that maybe I'd retire, set up a shop, and restore / refinish furniture part-time and maybe occasionally make new stuff by request. I like the work, and I'm reasonably good at it while I readily admit I don't know nearly as much about it as I need to know to be trusted with a stained, dirty, damaged piece that if properly restored would be a $50,000 antique such as I irregularly see in museums, shops and shows. I've made a living in a line of work that has next to nothing to do with my current hobbies / occasional paid furniture repair-refinish work. Like many of us rockin' away here, I'm in a financial position after 33 yrs of a professional life that is modestly comfortable, and I can afford to have a few LN planes in my workshop. I bought them because I thought I needed their finer qualities and hadn't found examples of what inspired their creation at an affordable price. That in no way makes my workshop better than anyone else's, as I am certain that others here can make things that are more awe-inspiring than what I have produced while using more "mundane" tools. Some of my ancestors were also carpenters, wheelwrights, blacksmiths, budding cabinetmakers, and toolmakers. I know much of what they did would be considered 'serviceable' or 'meeting market needs'. I contrast, I strive to do higher-end work out of a desire to improve my skills and produce something worth keeping around, not because I have a customer that is limited by what they can afford. The reality is that nearly all customers are limited by what they can afford, because they are like us. Only a very few can hold out for the finest work and afford the cost of having it done, just as few of us on this list can afford a bespoke mahogany bedroom set and custom fitted cabinetry in our closets (and no, I can't either, but I do know a couple people who can and did). As a result, many of us doing woodworking as a hobby explore producing things that are probably 'better quality' with our old tools than what former commercial owners of those tools would have produced. Worse, the things I produce I could not part with for the going commercial price of competing products because customers allocate what income they have among many different competing needs, and that rarely allows them to write blank checks. I'd go broke if I was in business trying to find customers who want me to make the finest furniture I could make, just as did Paul's acquaintence with "the grandest shop". What I strive to do, and probably many of us strive to do, is in between 'mundane' (NO termite barf) and exceptional, and yet still borders on what 'gentlemen woodworkers' might have done 100-200 yrs ago. I know I can't charge enough to provide me with a reasonable income per hour of work expended making furniture, just as I've determined that I can't sharpen saws for prices people can justify and make enough to make it worthwhile. (At the prices Tom Law charged me a few years before he retired, I didn't see how he made enough to want to keep doing -- and then he retired.) So it is unlikely I'll ever try. A few years ago, when we were exploring the prices charged and time required for cabinetmakers and joiners to build various items 100-200 yrs ago, it was a confirmation. I knew I was too slow -- but the time it took those guys to get things done was nearly a ten-fold improvement over me. And our shops are very often better equipped than what they had to work with. Seeing the Dominy shops and what Winterthur displays of that family's works, what is demonstrated at Williamsburg and elsewhere, and inspecting fine old antiques repeatedly confirms to me that the 'finest craftsmen' of old weren't 'finest' because of a high- end collection of tools or a superbly gorgeous workbench or any obsession with making furniture perfect in corners no one can see as well as on the outside. They didn't do their work that way. More of it was consistent with what St. Roy shows (the rare times I get to see his show) than many of us might admit. They may have had fine tools for a few specific tasks, but because they knew how to use what they had or make what tools they needed even when those tools were what we might think second-rate, they were able to get the job done in fine form and short order with tooling that is less impressive than what many of us have already. That's highly respectable in my eyes. I like the few luxuries I have in my shop, but I am much more conscious at this point of just how large a gap remains between my level of skill with my tools and the skills those folks displayed in their work. So, I no longer delude myself into believing that I can make some money at this work, and I instead focus upon learning more about how our elders did their work, did it well, and produced things that are worth preserving through generations. Using hand tools, preserving hand tool methods, and preserving the tools while still keeping them useful provides me an avenue for considerable relaxation. That makes it worth it, and I can still select the degree of fineness in my work to match the immediate need. I can simultaneously be working on a quick-build project for a mundane use right next to an attempt at something finely crafted. I don't need to get tied up in an obsession over work quality that leaves me unable to either finish anything or ever use a fine tool. Life is too short, and I need to accomplish things to that I hope will add to the things of value and worth preserving over the years. That's how I use my tools, and thankfully I don't have to worry about making a living from many of the tools I have acquired from people who did use them to make their living. This is my relaxation, my enjoyment, maybe part of my legacy, and I'm thankful for it. Charlie Driggs Newark DE ------- Date: Sat, 23 May 2009 13:24:39 -0400 From: Larry Lesniak Subject: [OldTools] Work outside the cube farm was Re: OldTools Digest, Vol 45, Issue 28 > The author gave up cube-farms and white collars in favor of > being a motorcycle mechanic. Lots of interesting observations on how > and what we value as "work". You can count me among those who have abandoned their original "careers" for some other more physical, tangible work. It's been nearly two years since I left the realm of information technology to become a full-time loom builder and while it hasn't always been easy, there's no way I'd ever want to go back. Crafting a loom and knowing that it will be shipped to a weaver who will love it, cherish it, and create beautiful works of fiber artistry on it is far more satisfying than completing another design document or software test plan. I think it satisfies some deep, inner longing to build things that are tangible and to create things that can last beyond our own lifetime. Software meets neither of these criteria and each of the projects I successfully completed during my I.T. days was nearly obsolete the day it was finished. No permanence there! So now I spend my days working wood and periodically sending out a finished loom and wondering to myself "why didn't I do this sooner?". Larry (happy to be out of cubes!) ------- Date: Mon, 25 May 2009 08:27:02 -0400 From: "Ilya Paolucci" Subject: [OldTools] work outside the cube farms was Re: OldTools Digest, This author has finally given me the words to 'splain to my folks why I quit college. Problem was, I went to a factory (machine farm?) for about twenty years before I finally started working as a home repairman. I've found that the "removal from results" he decries DOES exist in the trades, as shoddy workmanship in new constuction, where the homeowner isn't present while the work is done. I hope never to go back to new constuction again. That relationship with the ultimate user of my work is what I crave, as well as knowing that their home now has a reliable source of fresh clean water. Or perhaps it is safer and more enjoyable because it is well-lit with properly installed lights, or more secure because even the seven year old can get the back door to latch. But he's right- it IS scary sometimes-after all, if I screw up in my own shop, nobody has to know, but when water comes pouring thru my client's ceiling... Ilya, who's "freedom from a boss" means I'm working on Memorial day ------- Date: Mon, 25 May 2009 09:52:37 -0800 From: Phil Koontz Subject: [OldTools] Re: Work outside the cube farm was Re: OldTools Digest, Hi Galoots-- A subject dear to my heart, and so well expressed by Larry and Ilya that it's hard to add anything except "me too." My original role model was a guy who called himself Smithin Cliff, and who worked as a sort of demonstrator at a Boy Scout camp in Colorado circa 1984. I was recently out of a failing practice as a lawyer, and had was taking vocational rehabilitation as a graduate student in Civil Engineering at the time. He had taken over a derelict shed at the camp that was built for a sheep pen or some such, and had beard and hair down to here (farther than mine, Jeff), wore fringed leather clothes, and kept a muzzle loading rifle next to the forge. He showed me a bit about fire management, and about salvaging scrap iron, and the boys could take a short course that lead to making a little hook that would adorn the dining hall for hanging up hats and such during meals. I asked him one day how he got started in blacksmithing. He said that he had been a computer systems analyst, and one day just decided he wasn't going to do it any more. Walked off the job and never went back. Well. Time went by, and eventually, I moved into my cube, and after about four years started looking for a way out. It began as an Alaska thing, but I also started looking around for an anvil and forge, then got started on woodworking for about the third time, and eventually came to the porch via another email list of the time called Theforge. Eventually the Alaska thing worked out and we moved to Galena, then bye-n-bye I got fired from my job, and we just decided to do without it. After all, I took the job to move here, not the other way around. Fortunately, my wife Debbie is employed and likes what she does (teaching second grade), so the adjustment wasn't really very hard--we just replaced a cash income with an in-kind lifestyle whenever we could. It seems to be working out pretty well. I sometimes wonder what happened to Smithin Cliff. I never did know his last name, or basically anything about him except the brief story I've just passed on. Ilya Paolucci wrote: > This author has finally given me the words to 'splain to my folks > why I quit college. Ilya reminds me just a bit of Jake, if you see what I mean--no offense, Ilya. Glad to hear from you again, Larry--congratulations on the loom building business. It's a high calling. PK PS--One little anecdote. When I bought my first forge, I got it from an Amish antique shop in Yoder Kansas. I mentioned to the very Amish woman who sold it to me that I was planning to become a blacksmith, and she said "We need another blacksmith here." That posed real a crisis for me, as I stood there wondering what my next words would be. I guess you know how it turned out. ------- Date: Mon, 25 May 2009 23:12:05 -0400 From: "Dave Pearce" Subject: RE: [OldTools] Re: Work outside the cube farm was Re: OldTools Digest, Larry, Ilya, Phil, All good stuff to hear about. I've already expressed my sentiment to Larry who was kind enough to respond privately (I will write back, just too tired tonight). Not sure what the end result will be for myself, but leaving the cube-farm is something that's been brewing in my gut for a long time. Something in woodworking would be great, since it's what I enjoy, but I know sometimes it doesn't always work out that way. Persistance is key, I think, and if there's one thing I learned, it's that there's always a way. Not always apparent, maybe, but it's there. Good to hear there's others out there who've taken the road less traveled and come out just fine. Keep 'em coming, I really enjoy reading stories like this. dave ------- Date: Wed, 27 May 2009 19:57:47 +0800 From: Peter Huisman Subject: [OldTools] Re: Work outside the cube farm - (Bio update?) Nearly 30 years in I.T. (Build, Install, Maintain, PCs and networks), I had simply had enough.! So I sat on my butt for a month or so re-affirming my place on the earth's crust, then proceeded to canvass a few real estate co's offering to do their rental property maintenance for them. The jobs came in. Every task different, mostly challenging, some satisfying. Then about 18 months back the missus (my loving hard working wife, Jeff) and I took possesion of the keys to the new house. All paid work ceased as I had plenty to contend with at the new property. Painting, paving, wall building, establishing gardens, lawns, vegie patch, etc., etc. Now the real satisfaction comes into play. Satisfaction not only from a job self-perceived well done, (you know - pat yourself on the back, pour yourself a beer), but also from the savings made which easily make up for lost income. I'm trying to compete with Phil K. here, ;^>, but I'm not near a river floating a raft of logs, or testing for thickness of ice. Oh yes, there were a lot of hand tools used, as well as tekology, and manual labour played a big part by both self and spouse. And there was many a time when I posed myself the question of "How would the oldtimers have done it"? Care to take a peek? There's a lot of stuff there, not all related to my endeavours, but hey, if you suffer from insomnia, it may just be the right tonic. http://picasaweb.google.com/ausiewood Opinions and related stories always welcome. PeterH in Perth ------- Date: Wed, 27 May 2009 11:02:40 -0400 From: "mike tillson" Subject: RE: [OldTools] Re: Work outside the cube farm I also escaped the cube farm a few years back. After spending most of my career in IT, I finally got tired of the hire/fire by the job mentality, and decided to wander off from the pack. After some discussions with SWMBO, it was decided that I would stay here on the farm (literally), and get some of my other projects done that had been hanging for a while. The first one was to hang doors and casing (OT content) in a house addition that we had put up more than a decade before, and never really finished. Basically, my kids grew up in a house without doors, although that was not intentional. This project migrated into the porch replacements on front and rear that the place had actually needed when I first moved here. So now it looks like an old farm house again. Then I moved on to building up a greenhouse/nursery business that had been sort of an advanced hobby for a number of years. That business has now grown immensely, so now I spend most days puttering with the plants, and the winters in my shop. On the really good side, this change allowed me to spend a lot more time with my kids in their later teenage years, and to be available for transport to sporting matches, events, etc. In the end, partly because of this increased exposure, this also allowed both of them to get NCAA scholarships to go on to college. So while this may not have been "earned" money, it was certainly money saved. The big plus though, is that now if I need to go somewhere to look at a tool or an old tractor, then I can finally just give myself the day off, and go there! So, if an old geek like me can get out of the cubes, I'm sure most of you can too, once you're ready. Mike Tillson In rainy upstate ny. ------- Date: Thu, 28 May 2009 11:23:59 -0700 From: Wolf Subject: RE: [OldTools] Re: Work outside the cube farm Unfortunately I don't have anything nearly as interesting to add that is half as good as the stories in this thread. That said, the flying fickle finger of fate sent this article winging across my desk: The Case for Working With Your Hands: http://www.nytimes.com/2009/05/24/magazine/24labor-t.html?em A long read, I admit (5 web-pages) - especially in today's "10 second sound-byte" world! (Even the 15 second sound-byte has been downsized.) But it's also a very well-reasoned and well articulated manifesto for abandoning the cube and doing something "real" and tangible. (OT content: I have no idea) Lee ------- NOTE TO FILE: There was a rather active discussion in the Oldtools group recently as to what purpose was served by individuals' blog websites. Some used it as a news mechanism for family and friends; others used it as a personal diary where they could jot down notes and save pictures of projects made and events attended. And then there is the business function as explained by Bob in the following message. ------- Date: Fri, 6 Nov 2009 10:26:58 -0800 From: Bob Passaro Subject: Re: Why blogs? (Was -- [OldTools] Neat old tool website and blog) I have a blog/site that: (1) serves as my portfolio/brochure -- in case anybody wants to look at my work and learn about commissioning something I can give them the url. That save's me the cost of printing a brochure or something. And I don't really do enough woodworking for money to really justify a brochure anyway. But I do take commissions now and then, so ... (2) I use the blog to keep the client updated on what's going on with the project. I post an update with photos and they can more or less watch it progress. I don't expect random strangers to find my blog or be interested. But the future owner of something that I'm making might be interested in the process. I hope they are. So, it has a very narrow and specific purpose. Bob in Eugene rhpwood.wordpress.com ------- NOTE TO FILE: The following few messages were extracted from a very much longer discussion in the Oldtools Email Group. Visit their archived messages site (see link on homepage here) for a truly interesting read. Lie-Nielson is the maker of a line of very high quality hand tools for woodworking. They are above average in price but way above average in quality and function, so are indeed fairly-priced. The part of the discussion I was targeting here was the idea that if you (as a conscientious home workshop craftsperson) develop and then incorporate and emphasize quality in your handcrafts or custom work, there will likely be a well-paid market for your skills and products. ------- Date: Tue, 6 Apr 2010 10:41:14 -0500 From: WesG Subject: Re: [OldTools] Lie Nielsen mention On Apr 6, 2010, at 1:15 PM, Cliff Rohrabacher, Esq. wrote: > Who is this Seth Godin whose sole exposure to moneyed people seems > unfortunately to have been the nouveau riche who are little more > than hoi polloi trash with a fat wallets? > This line pretty much says it all: "Rich people will always indulge > the desire to stand out, but I wonder if there's a new version" this thread is already off topic... so before it gets quashed, I'll add two cents ;-) I see what he (Seth) is talking about every day. Craftsmen (Craftspeople) don't make stuff for people that are trying to pinch pennies because it doesn't pay the bills. They seek out folks with a combination of money AND and appreciation for carefully made goods. A lot of bad things are said about wealthy people, but the fact is that they keep a lot of craftspeople busy, and therefore they are friends to all of us. The people that I've had the good luck to work for have been 100% terrific AND they are seriously good at spreading the word when they like your products. So I can attest to the fact that there IS a trend toward appreciation of handmade goods, and as people who make things with our hands we should all be fired-up by the trend. Cheers, Wes In Chicago and at: http://galootapalooza.org/ ------- Date: Tue, 06 Apr 2010 23:44:25 -0700 From: scott grandstaff Subject: Re: [OldTools] Lie Nielsen mention You know, I remember Tom's first tool very well. A bronze #1. First #1 to have been made in, what, 50 or more years? It was cool. It was very cool. I remember John Economaki's first tools too. They were also cool. I liked the tools and I liked the idea of them. At the time, what collector community there was, didn't much care for either one of them. To put it very politely. Repros, fakes, awful abominations, they were considered. Not to be touched. But they were still cool tools. And eventually they found small markets. All was right with the world.... until something happened. I don't have any idea what happened. But both these man decided a quiet craftsman's life was just not enough. They both had products that were becoming popular. That popularity, instead of being enough to create a nice stable life, was used as a stepping stone to spin into more and bigger and more and bigger. Each move gaining in size and therefore harder to walk away from. And somewhere along the line, both of them found out a harsh truth about business none of us really wants to acknowledge. Image and hype is actually worth more than substance. Substance counts, it just doesn't count as much. Building hype and placing in the "right" venues, and offering old fashioned "approval/subscription" and "certificates of authenticity" same as Beanie Baby and Franklin Mint? Are actually more valuable from a business sense, than practically anything. A nicely created, and carefully maintained fad, makes more money faster than anything else, regardless of the product. Sell them image, at just a little above average income comfort price, and they will line up across the road. A rather ordinary $400 trysquare, and a $400 #4, factory made smoother (available daily at only $390 extra to avoid learning how to tune a tool that even the apprentices of our great grandparents could tune and use) can only be sold in this way. People who have some little extra money and expecting to impress others with their wealth, or others who are afraid of making a mistake and trying to hide behind someone else's skill, and still others who are insecure enough to need to follow a pack even when they can't afford to, and it hurts them financially....... These people all line up for image and hype. It appeals to them. Don't ask me why. This is a much larger group in numbers than other, uh, harder to influence types. Meanwhile, others in generally the same circumstance as Tom and John, have taken a quieter path during the same period of time. I can name a generous handful of my own friends and acquaintances. We all know who I mean. The money is not impressive. The work is harder. You pay for art in blood and nothing less. The reward is seldom great. It's not likely history will even remember who you were, much. Maybe Gary Robert's descendants will dig them up in old research and Patric Leach's descendants will sell our stuff to a small clientèle in a couple of generations. Who is to say what is better? I don't have to live in a place I can't stand. Don't have to get up and spend the day with people I don't care for, not much anyway. I drive old cars I have to fix myself. Nobody is taking me to Florence for a month. Is it worth it? What do I know? Do we really get to choose these things? Every person has to take their own road. yours Scott Scott Grandstaff Box 409 Happy Camp, Ca 96039 http://www.snowcrest.net/kitty/sgrandstaff/ http://www.snowcrest.net/kitty/hpages/index.html ------- Date: Wed, 7 Apr 2010 08:49:03 -0700 From: James Thompson Subject: Re: [OldTools] Lie Nielsen mention A while back I was privileged to watch a woodturning demonstration by a rather old Englishman named Allan Batty. Allan has been turning for a living since childhood, and that is a very long time. I and others were pretty much amazed by his abilities using what we considered outdated tools, not to mention the methods that most of us had never seen. The man turns all kinds of things and does not need to do any sanding. Mind boggling! His demonstration set my ideas about not needing the latest gadgets in concrete. When are we going to learn that it is skill and not tools that make us craftsmen? Most people are deathly afraid of ruining a project, so fancy and expensive tools seem like a guarantee against failure. But failure is your teacher. You learn from your mistakes and your failures. It is called apprenticeship, and there is no substitute. The famous craftsmen of old did not have LN planes, and they didn't need them. Their work shows that. Why are we any different? Feeling iconoclastic this morning. ------- Re: Benchtop lathes, now value [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: "jerdalx~xxsbcglobal.net" jtiers Date: Tue Feb 15, 2011 5:31 am ((PST)) > If you paid what he asked you did not take advantage. True within limits. Sometimes people do not know what to ask "for that old junk". One is entitled to find some reason to pay something more in that case. I have. Sometimes people think every lump of metal in a toolbox, perhaps a spacer made for some long-forgotten job, is a valuable tool and worth $25 or more. Often this is because "Dad said not to let anyone steal his tools for nothing". In those cases, you are entitled to move along, clearly nothing to see there. And, sometimes people are excessively hopeful. $3500 for an Atlas 12"? Well, it might be "worth" that. "Worth" is a very flexible term. If the machine actually performs the same task as a machine "costing" $12,000, one might argue that it is "worth" at least $4000. However, on that basis, either every car is "worth" $12,000 because it performs the same task as a certain low-end BMW costing $50,000, OR there is hardly any more "worth" in a Rolls than in a beat-up Crown Vic. Clearly those are extreme positions, and equally clearly there are variations in machines that make each "worth" a different amount. I have REFUSED TO SELL a lathe to a person who wanted to do things it could not do, and who didn't realize that (POS AA/109). But I sold it at full pop plus a premium to a person who said nothing, just looked it over and paid the asking. I had built-in a substantial bargaining pad into the price, but the person never asked, had a slightly superior and irritating attitude, and I felt no need to tell him. Go figure. JT ------- Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2011 21:15:58 -0500 From: "andy baughn" Subject: [OldTools] Pricing work So two people have asked me about building them some furniture. My Pastor wants a headboard, pretty simple really. Square legs, one wide rectangular rail. Then my cousin asked me about some furniture. By his description it sounded like a Nakashima style. He sent me a link to a Nakashima designed table, two hickory boards for the top, walnut legs and a sort of angled breadboard ends made from walnut. Said he loved the table but didn't want to pay $1700. He is an industrial designer by training so he said he'd draw up a similar plan and have me build it. So they both said they'd purchase the materials but were wondering how much I would charge for the work. My cousin said something about do I want a new TV. Good gravy, he's family and our pastor has done so much for us when we had Elanor and David and all. I'd do both projects for a couple two liter bottles of root beer but they insist on a real price. Does anybody know how to go about determining a price for stuff? Bad Andy ------- Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2011 21:33:27 -0500 From: Matthew Groves Subject: Re: [OldTools] Pricing work In most internet forums, this would be the time to get out the popcorn and butter-salt, because it seems that few other topics can stir up such venom between otherwise sensible adults. There's what you'd have to charge them if you were pretending to be a business. They will balk at those prices. Then, there's that lesser price that you would charge because, hey, you're not a business and don't have to put that kind of value on your time/ expertise. And finally, that leaves remaining the super-lesser price, which is essentially the "doing a favor" rate. I have no experience in your situation, but I've heard plenty of the arguing that goes on. (Hobbyists undercutting the businesses and devaluing the perception of the work, etc.) I think as long as you know what category you're aiming for, you're free to do whatever. It's probably helpful in the long run for them to also know what category they're being placed in for this particular job. Matthew Groves Springfield, MO ------- Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2011 18:36:47 -0800 From: James Thompson Subject: Re: [OldTools] Pricing work You can't win! If you give friends a price they can live with, you can't live with it. And if you ask a price you can live with, you will always be resented in their heart of hearts. "He is my friend, how could he do that to me?" Been there, done that, too many times. If I care about someone enough to do work for them in the first place, I do it free, but make them pay for material. If I don't like them enough to do it free, then I beg off. This advice is worth exactly what you paid for it. So I know you will ignore it, and later lament that fact. I wish I had a dollar for every time I have told someone, "Don't do that!", only to have them go ahead. 99% of the time they come back much later and say, "I wish I had listened." :>) ------- Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2011 21:43:32 -0500 From: Bill Ghio Subject: Re: [OldTools] Pricing work Ditto. I either just say no, or tell them I will do it for free but they have to accept that the result might not be as perfect as they might wish 'cause I am not a pro. A few times I have been given gift certificates afterwards, but if I am not willing to do it for free, I don't get involved. Currently I have a project where we are trading work w/ no discussion of relative value. Bill ------- Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2011 21:37:01 -0500 From: Ed Minch Subject: Re: [OldTools] Pricing work Rate X hours + consumables. If you were serious, you would add profit and amortization of shop stuff. Ed Minch ------- Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2011 22:09:46 -0800 From: "Cliff Rohrabacher, Esq." Subject: Re: [OldTools] Pricing work How about you figure how many hours it'll take and what you are worth per hour. Then add materials. And if you want, add a profit on the materials because you aren't buying other people's materials for them for nothing either and that takes up your precious time too. ------- Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2011 21:39:01 -0500 From: Matthew Groves Subject: Re: [OldTools] Pricing work > He is an industrial designer by training so he said he'd draw up a > similar plan and have me build it. As you're well aware, if he's not an individual who's versed in wood movement then his plans may not be feasible. Is he open to gentle correction should his design set off some alarm bells in your mind? Matthew ------- Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2011 23:15:49 -0500 From: "andy baughn" Subject: RE: [OldTools] Pricing work Well, he used to design some furniture. The design he showed me shouldn't have too many problems with movement. Just need to attach the breadboard ends so they can move with the top. I offered some thoughts on making the legs come through the top with contrasting wedges instead of just using screws. Bad Andy ------- Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2011 21:41:12 -0500 (EST) From: Pghpensfanx~xxaol.com Subject: Re: [OldTools] Pricing work > Does anybody know how to go about determining a price for stuff? > Bad Andy A pretty wise gentleman did a little work on the side for me that required expertise that I do not have. His answer to my query about what to pay him was simple and made a lot of sense. "Pay me what you make in an hour." and give an honest estimate what amount of time you spent on the project. Wm. West ------- Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2011 16:36:23 +1100 From: Mick Dowling Subject: Re: [OldTools] Pricing work Reminds me of a story a fellow carpenter used to tell about his father who was also a carpenter. I can't vouch for it being a true story, but he used to say his old man was a bit of a character. The old bloke went to see his doctor about some ailment. When the doctor had finished the old bloke was walking to the door with the doctor's bill in his hand. Just as he reached the door the doctor called him back, "I see from your file that you're a carpenter, I've got a little job I'm doing at home that's giving me some trouble, can you give me some advice?" 30 minutes later the old bloke is again making for the door, but stops and turns back, hands the bill back to the doctor and says, "I reckon we're square." Mick Dowling Melbourne Member, Hand Tool Preservation Association of Australia Inc. ------- Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2011 20:49:32 -0600 From: John Holladay Subject: Re: [OldTools] Pricing work I had someone ask me to quote some work a while back and I had a dilemma in that I had no idea what was fair. In my case it was not family or friend. However, it was a job that was pretty involved and was going to take time away from my day job. I was going to have to use some vacation time in order to get it done in time, assuming they accepted my proposal. I finally decided to quote them a price that would make it worth me going to that trouble. In translation, I really was attempting to price it high enough that they would not want me to do the work. Darned if they didn't accept, at which point, I wondered if I left some money on the table. I read once that if you raise your prices by 10%, any customers lost were not worth having, and the additional profit from the higher margin would make life much more enjoyable. They also commented that if that 10% increase caused you to lose a lot of customers, you weren't really doing a good job for your customers. Finally, I believe that our time is the most valuable thing we have. It is the only thing that can never be replaced once it has been spent. Always, always, be wise about how you spend it. However, that does not always translate into dollars, such as time spent with or for a child or a loved one. Doc ------- Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2011 23:01:21 -0600 From: WesG Subject: Re: [OldTools] Pricing work Well, of you were going to do it for free, you probably would not have asked the porch... So laboring under that assumption, and as somebody that just 2 weeks ago spent 40 hours on a pair of candlesticks commissioned by the mother of the groom, who is one of my best friends... Here's what you do: decide on an hourly rate that you would charge a stranger. Tell your clients what that rate *would* be, but discount the amount per hour (percentage) that they get for being special. Then tell them you'll keep track of the hours you work on their furniture. Get a deposit up front that covers the cost of their material and go get it yourself... (Don't take a chance that they buy you warped, wet wood...) If it takes you an hour and a half to buy the materials, that counts as an hour of work. (You just gave them another discount.) When the work is done present them with your total billed hours and the amount that they owe you, as agreed upon at the start. Remember, they're friends and family... But that goes both ways. With mouths to feed and bills to pay, you would be a little irresponsible to do that work for free, and they'd be taking advantage of you if they expected to pay you less than the bagger at Costco (about $15 an hour). I bet Matt is enjoying his popcorn! Cheers, Wes ------- Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2011 00:15:32 -0500 From: Matthew Groves Subject: Re: [OldTools] Pricing work Having only recently learned how to pop it without burning it, I have been enjoying it a lot lately. I have faith that the porch will never descend into the literary depths that make some other forums hard to stomach, providing only moderate return in the humor and knowledge dept. This discussion is full of win. No fighting or cursing. Business owners and hobbyists alike sharing lemonade (and soon egg-nog) with pleasant results. Matthew Groves ------- Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2011 00:19:41 -0500 From: Gary Roberts Subject: Re: [OldTools] Pricing work Ouch. I stopped doing stuff for cash for friend or family years ago. No matter who, problems arise. They don't like the results, the design is not what they expected, it doesn't fit, the color isn't right, they can't pay on time, it took too long, it doesn't look professional and so on. If I do do something, it's either a freebee or barter. I typically do just restoration stuff now and again which is a different kettle of cod. For this I would suggest that they pay for the materials, write up a brief contract that states no time limit, a clear understanding of the design and what they can expect, if the design is not doable or unsafe or not structurally sound, skip it and explain why. If they insist on giving you something, tell them when they get the piece, it's up to them to decide. That leaves you in the clear. I once got a bottle of Tanqueray and that was fine with me. If I agree to fix or do something, it's a favor and up to the other person to decide when and if they want to do in return. If they're hard up for cash, I make it clear that nothing is expected in return but if they insist, I could use help some day in yard work or something like that. Gary Roberts http://shop.toolemera.com http://toolemera.com http://toolemerablog.typepad.com ------- Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2011 08:50:19 -0500 From: Charlie Driggs Subject: Re: [OldTools] Pricing work On Nov 11, 2011, at 9:15 PM, andy baughn wrote: > but they insist on a real price. Does anybody know how > to go about determining a price for stuff?" Yes, dangerous territory. Get it wrong and you potentially lose the friendship element. I've had occasion to do several jobs for friends and friends of friends or my relatives. For the latter, I took the path of first trying to identify what they felt they could afford and still be happy by asking them "What can you afford and still be comfortable about having me do this?" They usually haven't thought that far ahead, and I've generally received honest answers. Then -- if their price is high enough to seem worth doing it, I might drop the quote a little bit to make them feel happier, if I think maybe they've gonna go a little higher so I don't think they are a cheapskate. The danger is the one everybody else mentioned -- will they EVER be happy with what you do? If you don't charge enough, they won't respect you or the work you do. If you charge too much in their mind, they'll feel entitled to come back demanding fixes or changes, possibly forever. If you can't charge enough to cover your material costs and maintain your self respect, it is not worth taking the job. For friends, you have the factor of "What have they already done for you?". In the case of the person who first requested my help at repairing her furniture, she had been giving me great haircuts for two decades at a fair market price. She started by asking what I thought a fair price would be and we wound up where she asked that I price my work at a fair price and she'd decide whether she could afford it. So of course I gave her a break on the price to avoid any issue. She paid me extra, based on what she thought the job was worth to her when I finished each of the three jobs she's asked me to do. Too bad most people are not that honest, and unlike most people who might ask, I will do more work for her. And then there is the third type of request -- someone you know who knows you probably can do the job, and they just want perfection for as little as they can spend to get it. Spending any money at all violates their personal code, and your needs are distantly secondary. A great opportunity to end a parasitic relationship sits before you. Good opportunity to quote a high price, stick to it, make it clear what you will be doing and that changes requested later will cost more -- and you either have some fun watching them squirm or you get surprised as the person sucks it up and pays a fair price because everyone else they wanted to cheat told them to get lost, yet they still need the job done. Charlie Driggs ------- Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2011 08:56:25 -0500 From: Erik von Sneidern Subject: Re: [OldTools] Pricing work I don't like working for anyone. I do it for a living, but I'd rather not. I refuse to do my hobby for anyone. I don't need it for a living, so I won't. I've tried it before and hated it. The hobby that was meant to satisfy me became a chore that I expected to perform at the speed and skill of one who does it for a living. The project was not for my pleasure, so I had no attachment to the work. I have no ability to accurately estimate the time it takes to do a job. Estimators are trained to do that job, I'm not. I spent more time than I anticipated working at my hobby on something I was not attached to. The money, even if doubled, would not have made the experience happy for me. But that's my problem. If you are attached to the project and would enjoy doing it for nothing, the price is whatever you ethically feel is fair to charge friends and relatives (a low price). If you can work without feeling attached to the project, but are not interested in earning a wage, then you must be motivated by satisfying your "client." You either are altruistic and charge the low price, or you charge what is fair to you (a higher price). If you are welcoming the project as an opportunity for some income, then you need to put effort into assessing the value of your time, based on the market (an even higher price). Erik von Sneidern www.disstonianinstitute.com ------- Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2011 09:22:24 -0700 From: Don Schwartz Subject: Re: [OldTools] Pricing work This certainly makes sense to me. Regarding the last point, there's an motto I read somewhere which would inform my work and pricing if I were to be building or making for income. "Price to build, and build to price". IOW, set your price according to how much you want to do the work (lower if you want it, higher if you don't). Then once the price is set, build to a commensurate standard. FWIW Don ------- Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2011 15:07:53 -0500 From: "Linda & Tom Hall" Subject: [OldTools] Re: Pricing Work I have not done a lot of jobs for clients, but the successful ones have been "not to exceed" pricing, material payment as bought, 1/3 payment for labor as goes on, change order may mean more or less cost, and I have kept the client involved. Last payment I try to add 10% for material cost to cover the time in sourcing. I've found women to make definitive decisions which makes my work easier. If a potential client starts with "I saw it at Pottery Barn" then tell them to buy it, you can't compete, explain you do not work in that material and grade of construction. Family and friend work is impossible to me. Give it away or equal time. Equal time will kill the request when they realize how labor intensive the project request is. I try to have them source out the finish as that is not my forte, I have people for them to go to or they can do it themselves. If they are doing the finish I do the primary coats; this allows me to stabilize the product; clients don't usually understand seasonal changes. In the three years I've read the OT blog this is one of the best threads for contribution from the porch. We all need this quality input if we are going to send a bill! Tommy Hall Amesbury, MA ------- Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2011 12:08:17 -0800 From: Tom Holloway Subject: Re: [OldTools] Pricing work Moving right along with a thread that seems to have been lurking just under the floorboards of The Porch, brought up by that Bad Boy Andy's innocent query. On Nov 12, 2011, Erik von Sneidern wrote: [snip, per FAQ] > I refuse to do my hobby for anyone. I don't need it for a living, > so I won't. This resonates with me, and brings to mind some very old discussions here, involving expenditure of time playing golf, watching sports on TV, tending flower gardens with purely decorative goals, and/or [enter your favorite time-filler here]. One of the reasons I like my hobby is that it has tangible results (at least in potential, but we'll leave actual productivity in the realm of perennial Porch banter). The accquisition, rehabbing, and fettling of tools has at times seemed to take on a life of its own, along with learning about the history of the tools and their inventors and makers, but I still put myself somewhere in the user camp. Learning how to use the tools, eventually building up what is these days called a skill set, is another plus. It's not too much of a stretch for me to claim that I do these things as components of a hobby called hand tool woodworking. I like the idea, occasionally turned into a reality, that it all boils down to making things. The things I've made in the course of engaging in this hobby are either around my house or have been given as gifts or donated to some cause. Now and then the "gift" has been providing access to my shop and modicum of expertise (and time) to work with neighbors or relatives the help them accomplish something they otherwise could not, because they did not have the necessary equipment or skills. The objects that result from these processes are satisfying to have, and other people seem to like them, but the Thing is not the thing--it's the process. Back to the golf analogy: Let's say I had spent a significant sum on clubs and those spiky shoes, and devoted many hours over years playing golf, and was reasonably competent at it -- but I'm not a pro. I wouldn't expect anyone to come to me and ask me how much money I would take for playing a golf game. If my pastime were watching sports on TV . . . (you see where this is going). I'm not speaking for Andy, but if I were in the situation he describes, and I wanted to make the things requested, had the time, tools, know-how and skill required, and were allowed my own time frame (within reason), I would firmly and pleasantly say that I would accept the cost of materials, but I'm not in this for the money, and won't take payment for engaging in my hobby. For professionals trying to make a living at it, or make it a significant component of needed income, I understand that this whole thing needs to be looked at from something like the opposite end. That's a different conversation. Tom Holloway, asking Matthew to pass the popcorn. ------- Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2011 18:20:04 -0500 From: "ASRA-Eduardo De Diego" Subject: RE: [OldTools] Pricing work Well I was hanging in the wings, sampling the popcorn, but not drinking the Kool-Aid:-). Here's my experience with one of my "hobbies". I do a LOT of photography. I've often been asked to; shoot a wedding, catalog a website, architectural/construction record, model portfolios, executive portraits, family reunions, you get the idea. I have only two avenues of approach on these matters, either you can afford professional work or you can't. For those friends that are financially challenged, it's free. They cover my costs for materials, albums, pre-press and etc. If they are Really Disadvantaged, it's all a gift. Also, I don't charge an overhead for equipment, despite a substantial investment in this hardware. For those that can afford to pay scale, I charge scale rates the same as professionals. I quote them a price and insist that they get at least one other quote and look at various portfolios. This also applies to folks who have means but are too "thrifty" to hire a professional. Photographers, like woodworkers, each have a different style. I suggest to them that using the full-time professional gives them several advantages including speed, a dedicated professional who is (hopefully) recognized in their craft and liability insurance (if that's a concern). In both cases I sit down with the principals and get a written schedule of what is included and what is not, what I'm doing and what they are responsible for. It clears the way to do professional work with a minimum of interference. It's not a problem in woodworking, but if you had to deal with noisy meddling from the mother-of-the-bride, or the food stylist on their first studio shoot, you would never be able to produce. DAMHIKT. FWIW, I've never used barter or accepted a "gift" like a TV. This opens a whole other can of worms; Size of screen?, LCD, LED or Plasma? Fiber, HD or HDMI inputs? (the preceding tongue-planted-firmly-in-cheek of course) YMMV and wrth xctly wht U pd 4 it... ------- Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2011 22:52:42 -0800 (PST) From: Thomas Conroy Subject: Re: [OldTools] Pricing work hi, Andy, I just looked at your original posting again and caught something obvious that I missed because your question was about pricing and I focused on that. Your cousin loves a Nakashima table. He thinks he can draw one and have it made by someone else. And he isn't willing to pay $1700 for it. Nothing anyone can do will ever satisfy this guy. Get out of making something for him. You'll get no credit, just complaints, though the complaints might not be made to you. Tom Conroy Berkeley (Nakashima collected wood and kept it for decades, and would pick through his piles and find a board that said something, and would design the furniture to suit the wood, not the other way around. His furniture isn't the kind of thing that comes out of a designer's training, and it isn't the kind of thing that can be done quickly). ------- Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2011 01:55:35 -0500 From: Gary Roberts Subject: Re: [OldTools] Pricing work I agree with Tom. Your friend forgot to add two zeros to the figure to meet current prices for older Nakashima made tables. Good spot Tom Gary Roberts http://shop.toolemera.com http://toolemera.com http://toolemerablog.typepad.com ------- Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2011 23:13:26 -0800 From: scott grandstaff Subject: Re: [OldTools] Pricing work I agree with Tom and Gary too. Unless he is an extraordinary individual, he --wishes-- he had the reproduction table. That exact thing. Anything you make, for any price, will always be second best Unless............ You just help him to make his own table. If he builds it (or at least feels like he did) the entire ballgame changes radically. yours Scott Scott Grandstaff Box 409 Happy Camp, Ca 96039 http://www.snowcrest.net/kitty/sgrandstaff/ http://www.snowcrest.net/kitty/hpages/index.html ------- Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2011 19:53:07 -0600 From: Mark Lovett Wells Subject: Re: [OldTools] Pricing work As soon as money gets involved, something changes. Richard Foster talks about that in "Freedom of Simplicity" and "The Challenge of the Disciplined Life." (You brought the pastor to this conversation!) If you are willing to do it for root beer, then do it for free! As mentioned already, don't work for anybody who says, "I want it just like that, only cheaper." If you were starting a business, then that's a good way to launch. If you are trying to enjoy your hobby, then that's a recipe for heartache. My rule is something I learned on rec.woodworking a long time ago. "You can't pay me and you can't ask when I'll be done." Mark ------- Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2011 18:16:31 -0800 From: scott grandstaff Subject: Re: [OldTools] Pricing work > My rule is something I learned on rec.woodworking a long time ago. > "You can't pay me and you can't ask when I'll be done." Nu uhhhhhh :) No wayyyyyyyy Why this boy is a saint, I tell you what! I am wearin one of his belts right now!! and I just spent about 4 hours in another of his belts, around my neck. (guitar strap). Old harness leather (human or animal either one) is just pretty hard to beat! I wouldn't take squeaky rough new leather if you held a gun on me. But old soft plenty wore in leather?? Now that is precious beyond any money. And Mark hit the bricks for me and found me some. Went right down into the fray and came up with gold. Oh course I pulled some stops out too, and put a saw together for him. We worked for each other in perfect harmony. Something hard for even friends to do. yours Scott Scott Grandstaff Box 409 Happy Camp, Ca 96039 http://www.snowcrest.net/kitty/sgrandstaff/ http://www.snowcrest.net/kitty/hpages/index.html ------- Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2012 12:23:27 -0400 (EDT) From: nicknaylox~xxaol.com Subject: Re: [OldTools] Funny On Sat, Apr 14, 2012, Andy Baughn wrote: >> A friend sent me this. It is people arguing about hammers and nails. >> http://www.lensrentals.com/blog/2012/03/hammerforum-com On 4/14/2012, Kirk Eppler wrote: > Well done, thanks for forwarding that. I have been on camera forums > where almost every thread went like that one. Thank goodness > we don't have those kinds of discussions on the porch (at least > not yet today.....) Kirk in HMB Whenever Anybody suggests to me that I should start of a business with my woodworking (or metal or .....) I*m reminded of all the photographers I*ve known and heard about, who *ruined a perfectly good hobby turning it into a business* Michael S Yeah, photographers can be like that... ;-) ------- Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2012 11:49:57 -0700 From: James Thompson Subject: Re: [OldTools] Funny On 11 Apr 2012 James Thompson wrote: > Subject: [OldTools] Purple Cow Revisited One thing led to another, and finally my Purple Cow has a frame. It's different. Take a look: https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/4R0WDmxo4tyhivCg2vbNuNMTjNZETYmy PJy0liipFm0?feat=directlink James Thompson, the Old Millrat in Riverside CA < After I framed my Purple Cow I took it to the classroom at the Senior Center where we do the glasswork to share it with the other students. The instructor asked to put it on display in the glass case reserved for our work. I agreed, and as soon as she locked the case, a lady lawyer spotted it and asked to buy it. I referred her to my agent. (My wife) :>) She has a better appreciation of the expenses involved in these hobbies than I do, and they are significant. I see the money go out in dribs and dabs, but she sees the big picture. I've had offers for several pieces now, and I have so far resisted the urge to sell anything. I still believe that if I start selling stuff it will no longer be fun to do. I don't want to ruin any of my "Perfectly good hobbies." ------- Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2012 13:59:16 -0500 From: Subject: Re: [OldTools] Funny James, It's funny that people can't seem to appreciate or accept the fact that as soon as you start doing your hobby for money it is no longer a hobby and the "client's" wants and expectations ruin the fun. roy ------- Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2012 12:30:54 -0700 From: James Thompson Subject: Re: [OldTools] Funny Even now with my pristine status as an amateur, people feel free to tell me what I should be doing, and to offer their suggestions as to what I should do next. I accept these suggestions gracefully, but I put them in the "fuggedaboutit" file. I do exactly what pleases me. I can just imagine how it would be if I had to actually listen to that stuff. ------- Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2012 17:19:56 -0400 From: "Dave Nighswander" Subject: Re: [OldTools] Funny I agree with Jim. I can help anyone build something for free or make a gift or even just fix something that needs fixing with my meager woodworking skills and still enjoy the process. Every time I get talked into doing a project for money it becomes just one more task that has a deadline. ------- Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2012 15:15:00 -0500 From: Scott Stager Subject: Re: [OldTools] Funny On Apr 14, 2012, at 1:49 PM, James Thompson wrote: > After I framed my Purple Cow a lady lawyer spotted it and > asked to buy it. When I first saw it I figured it would go great in a big steak house in Dallas of Fort Worth. > I referred her to my agent. (My wife) :>) Good move - she would be more inclined to ask for some huge amount and probably get it :0) > I've had offers for several pieces now, and I have so far resisted > the urge to sell anything. I still believe that if I start selling > stuff it will no longer be fun to do. I don't want to ruin any of my > "Perfectly good hobbies." Totally agree, but as stuff piles up I could see the need to unload some stuff. Always good to give to friends and family if any want the item. I think selling something "from the stash" could keep it from becoming a business and wreck the hobby. Just never ever consider doing something on commission or spec. Tell folks "If I got it and don't want it any more I'll sell it, but don't ask me to make anything specific". Scott ------- Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2012 16:50:18 -0400 From: Tom Dugan Subject: RE: [OldTools] Funny > Even now with my pristine status as an amateur, people feel free to tell me what I should be doing, and to offer their suggestions as to what I should do next. I accept these suggestions gracefully, but I put them in the "fuggedaboutit" file. I do exactly what pleases me. I can just imagine how it would be if I had to actually listen to that stuff. < You don't! Clearly, the current model is working just fine for you. You make a piece you like. Someone sees it and wants to buy it. They talk to your agent, and the deal is done. I don't see why you need to change a thing - as long as the "agent" is happy. T ------- NOTE TO FILE: Here's a business site with all sorts of ideas to promote and improve your business: http://www.profitguide.com/ Even a small home shop business can benefit from some of these tips. ------- NOTE TO FILE: For something a bit different, first is a question to the group from a legitimate owner, now trying to sell a metal lathe. He soon gets feedback about some scams currently operating, which attempt to defraud innocent vendors. ------- Re: Atlas 3950 6" lathe [atlas_craftsman] [how to sell or buy on CL] Posted by: "Wilfred Hoafat" wrhoafatx~xxverizon.net Date: Fri Feb 8, 2013 6:28 pm ((PST)) Don T. wrote: > Hello everyone, I'm looking to find a new home for this little lathe; I've posted a few pictures of it in the Atlas 3950 folder. I was thinking about posting it on Craigslist in Huntsville, AL but am still trying to decide on an asking price. The lathe is currently mounted on a heavy plywood board with a 110v motor and switch. It has a 4" Bison three-jaw chuck mounted, as well as a faceplate and a set of Jacobs arbor turning chucks and live/dead centers. It also has multiple lantern tool posts, one tool holder and a batch of new 3/16" HSS blanks for grinding fresh tool bits, wrenches, gears for changing feeds/threads, and a printed copy of the operation/parts manual. It also has a protective cover to help keep the dust off when it's not in use. Anyone have any thoughts on a suitable price for it prior to my posting it on CL? I'm hoping to find a local buyer, so I figured CL would be the best bet. Thanks in advance! < Don T, Listing on Ebay with shipping option is not easy. I have done it but preparing the lathe for shipping took a lot of time. You can try listing on Ebay for local pickup. With all the accessories you are including, I believe that you should ask for at least $600.00. I have used Craigslist with good results. However, there were several scam artists contacting me. Wilfred ------- Re: Atlas 3950 6" lathe Posted by: "gennady_123" zoyagenax~xxyahoo.com Date: Fri Feb 8, 2013 6:56 pm ((PST)) Wilfred, I just wonder can you give some examples from your experience what tactics these scam artists would use and how it can be recognized? I think it may be a good education for some of us. Gennady ------- Re: Atlas 3950 6" lathe Posted by: "wilfred hoafat" wrhoafatx~xxverizon.net Date: Fri Feb 8, 2013 7:17 pm ((PST)) I got a couple offers telling me that they are buying the what I am selling. They ask me to remove the listing. Next they say that they will pay with a registered check in an amount that is much larger than my asklng price. They state that they will send a courier to pick up the item and request that I give the courier the change. This is what my listing attracted. ------- Re: Atlas 3950 6" lathe Posted by: "Scott Henion" shenionx~xxshdesigns.org Date: Fri Feb 8, 2013 7:22 pm ((PST)) Any item over $100 on CL will get automated emails saying they are interested in the "item", not what you are actually selling. They will say they are out of town and will have someone pick it up. Will want to pay by cashiers check or money order (forged) or bank transfer (can be reversed); often more than the amount listed. Then want you to pay their "shipper" when he arrives. Then all the money disappears from your account. The email may not have any subject (it is normally the title of the CL listing.) The latest changes to CL help some of the automated scams. If they want to change the deal, say cash only and they will go away. I have sold a lot on CL, with no problems (enclosed trailer, car parts and lots of riding mowers). Anyone who refuses to give you cash on delivery, just say no. If they insist on a cashiers check, meet them at their bank and have them draw the check right in front of you. High $$ items, be careful of being robbed (especially buying). There are parts of town I would never get anything no matter what the deal. I got my lathe of CL, a great deal and an honest seller (showed me everything he saw wrong with the lathe.) Have sold dozens of things with no problems other than people not showing up. Expect to waste some time on people who don't follow through. Scott G. Henion Craftsman 12x36 lathe: http://shdesigns.org/Craftsman12x36 ------- Re: Atlas 3950 6" lathe Posted by: "inspiro_creo" david.deboizex~xxverizon.net Date: Fri Feb 8, 2013 7:47 pm ((PST)) This is a very common Craigslist scam, I have received many of these. To recognize it real quickly just read the first few lines. Usually the email don't even call the item by the title you are listing. "I'm interested in your item" is a dead give away. It's not personally directed at you, anyone is subject to these type of scams. Most are generated by software bots, the scammer sends hundreds if not thousands out, hoping one will bite. I had one email me to pay me through an online escrow site once shipment verification was sent from me. I knew it was a scam and played along with it for fun. I checked the site, it was legit. However the money sender could at any time withdraw the escrow amount. Leaving anyone who mailed out the item with no money and no returned item. I played along with the scammer, even asking them what exact item they were purchasing, they couldn't reply. At the end I had a few choice words to end the scam. An honest potential buyer will use the reply to seller link, in which you should see your listing title in the SUBJECT line. If you have your Craigslist listing as anonymous you're ok: "Craigslist offers an anonymous email to advertisers on the site, so they do not have to reveal their real email address. All replies sent to this anonymous email is forwarded to their actual email. This extra step prevents others from having access to a poster's real address. Unfortunately, no such protection exists for those replying to posts. When you reply directly from Craigslist, your email address will be visible to the recipient. To reply anonymously, you need to create a free Web-based email address, which does not contain identifiable information." Anything else just delete, that's what I do. You just have to sift through some scam emails to get to the honest ones. Good luck David ------- Re: Atlas 3950 6" lathe Posted by: "Eggleston Lance" wheezer606x~xxverizon.net Date: Fri Feb 8, 2013 8:32 pm ((PST)) I have some questions as an honest buyer. I have been looking for a used Taig lathe. There are none near me, but several have come up in other States, farther than I would drive. I use the CL link, state I am interested in the Taig listed, would they ship (I pay the charge) and offer to pay via PayPal or bank draft. I won't mail cash. How else might I offer to pay. How else might I show legitimacy? lance ------- Re: Atlas 3950 6" lathe Posted by: "tkatzke" tkatzkex~xxyahoo.com Date: Sat Feb 9, 2013 9:36 am ((PST)) I list often on Craig's List. It is easy to tell if someone is looking for good email addresses. At least that is what I figure they are doing. Not very often I get a scam email about the shipping thing. I put in all my listings that if it is listed it is for sale. Still get questions asking about the same thing in the same words. Goes like this, "Is it still for sale, what is your firm price." Other veriations of that. I had one the other day I was not sure if it was legit or not. I don't think it was as I never heard back. Bottom line is you can tell if the email you get looks like someone wanting to buy or just wanting to get a reply from you. As to how to offer to buy from someone in a different city. Get the conversation going first. You can then get an idea if the person is real and the kind that may ship. I guess it may be just me, I don't wnat to ship itmes I put on Craigs List. If I wanted to ship and put up with payments other then cash I would list it on Ebay and get more for the item. ------- Re: Atlas 3950 6" lathe Posted by: "gennady_123" zoyagenax~xxyahoo.com Date: Sat Feb 9, 2013 11:25 am ((PST)) Dear Group: Many thanks for all people who responded to my question and provided the description and real life examples of CL scams. For me it is really good learning since I am rather rare on craigslist with real actions. (I always watch it but never sold there, just bought several items locally.) The description of red flags to watch is very helpful. Also, another helpful aspect for me is how to ask legitimate questions so that people do not consider it as a scam. Couple of times I sent the question is the item still available and never get the answer. Now I can see one of the reasons for it -- the experienced seller might assume it is a scam. Thanks again, Gennady ------- Re: Atlas 3950 6" lathe Posted by: "Cindy & Wayne Burner" burners4x~xxcomcast.net Date: Sun Feb 10, 2013 1:41 am ((PST)) When you are interested in buying on CL, leave your name, the town you live in, and what time you are available to look at the item. That works pretty good for me. Wayne(rice)Burner Atlas 10 X 54 with QC Still digging out in So. NH ------- Re: Atlas 3950 6" lathe Posted by: "ai4cw" nn4sx~xxmchsi.com Date: Sun Feb 10, 2013 8:00 am ((PST)) Thanks to all of you again for helping determine what to ask and the tips for listing on CL. I'd try listing it on Ebay, but I hate to do that when I have no plans of trying to ship it... even a listing stating "local pickup only" would likely only end up messing up other folks auctions, so getting a little less on CL is probably my best bet. I figure I'll at least try it there first -- if it doesn't sell, then maybe I'll give Ebay a try. They're such a pain for sellers to deal with nowadays that I really just don't care to mess with them if I don't have to. I still need to determine which pictures to use with the ad -- unless it will let me link to them, I expect that there's still a limit of four that can be uploaded in the ad. Thanks again, Don T. ------- Re: Atlas 3950 6" lathe Posted by: "warrengrant" warrengrantx~xxyahoo.com Date: Sun Feb 10, 2013 6:06 pm ((PST)) Scott has pretty well nailed it. I still have a check sent to me. I knew it was fake so I didn't bother to deposit. I did take it to the bank and let them make a copy. One of the things they [the crooks] want you to do is to cash the check, send them a money order for the excess then keep a little extra for your trouble and send them a money gram for what's left. By the time you figure out what happened, the check they sent you has come back and you're out everything. If you are buying, I've found out that the deal is way too good to be true and they will use the military to con you. Saying they are shipping out and the item is packed ready to be shipped in storage and it's always where you can't get to it. For instance a Chevy Avalanche 2007 for $15K in perfect condition. Often they will have pics that probably come from a buddy or a dealer. I usually like to play with these people a little if I have the time. I always get cash but I have gotten PayPal and it worked OK. I have sold two vehicles one was $5k and the other $10K. Both buyers laid out $100 bills. Just DON'T take a check unless you are in THEIR bank lobby to cash it. ------- Re: trade [Metal_Shapers] Posted by: "BRIAN GLACKIN" glackin.brianx~xxgmail.com Date: Mon Feb 11, 2013 5:17 pm ((PST)) Old woodworking machines website now covers metalworking tools and their forums (owwm.org) have a BOYD section (bring out your dead) for buying, selling, and trading. It's dedicated to american iron only. I have swapped/sold a few items there. No charge -- accepts donations to keep the site up. Requires registering for the forums. They also have a forum for "ruckering" items around the country. Basically a snail freight among old tool afficiandos. BG ------- NOTE TO FILE: Following is some commentary on ways to sell our stuff. ------- Date: Tue, 07 Oct 2014 12:51:14 -0700 From: scott grandstaff Subject: Re: [OldTools] Japanese Tools It depends on what you want. It will not happen that you get a lot of money for no work. You have to work for it, if you want a sizeable return. If you want full retail, open a shop and make yourself a time card. And wait... If you want the most you can get for the least amount of hard work (but its hard work don't kid yourself) Then take pictures and auction list it on Ebay. Expect to spend three or 4 hours on the first auction alone. After that is gets faster but its never really fast. If you want set your own price, (not an auction) and its a high price, you have to further open an Ebay store. If you want friendly patrons, (but with plenty of work), then take pictures and post them here. The Porch has always allowed some form of selling. Standard "old tool terms" are to just ship the goods when someone asks. They pay you when they get it. It's an honor thing. Nobody gets hurt, and we have always been proud of it. You don't have to do this though. Ordinary selling where the customer pays up front is acceptable. You still have to photograph, price, box and mail everything.....probably all over the world. One of the national auctioneers will come for it if there is enough to justify the trip. Otherwise, they will still sell it for you at auction, but of course you have to get it to them. If you just want it gone, the local auction house will get you 10 cents on the dollar next week. You still have to pack it all up and deliver it to the auction house. Or a dealer will come over and give you 5 cents on the dollar today, and clean it all up for you. Different people have different needs. But you do have choices. yours Scott Scott Grandstaff Box 409 Happy Camp, Ca 96039 http://www.snowcrest.net/kitty/sgrandstaff/ http://www.snowcrest.net/kitty/hpages/index.html ------- making a living with your cnc [SherlineCNC] Posted by: gp_illustratorx~xxyahoo.com gp_illustrator Date: Wed Feb 24, 2016 10:42 am ((PST)) So, I know that this is usually a touchy subject in other independent career types of jobs, but I'm curious anyways. Coming from an art/illustration field, nobody really wants to talk about it. Who here makes a living off of using their sherline? Is it enough to pay your mortgage, food, etc. And not to nitpick, but I'm not asking you retired guys/gals, you guys might have retirement income factored in. :) Not asking for specifics here, unless you feel inclined to add the info. But, did you find that one niche market that made your dreams come true? Did you grow a customer base and are now busy enough to call it a job? Did you work in a big shop that wouldn't handle small jobs, so you went independent and are benefiting from a smaller footprint doing those small jobs? Just trying to add to the conversation here. Gabe ------- Re: making a living with your cnc Posted by: "Tom Wade" tomx~xxwade.name arcmaster3 Date: Wed Feb 24, 2016 12:06 pm ((PST)) I'm not. But I'm retired. But do know two people that are. We used to have a guy on the list who made titanium wedding bands, and I'm pretty sure that's all he did. Don't remember his name. Maybe someone else might remember. Or perhaps he was on the other Sherline list. Not sure. And then there's TryAlly in Brazil. He has a fairly good sized Sherline only shop. He used to make lots of videos showing how he made his special tools. Go to youtube and search for Luiz Ally. https://www.youtube.com/user/tryally Only problem is that Luiz doesn't speak much English. Tom Wade ------- Re: making a living with your cnc Posted by: "tom betka" tcbetkax~xxhotmail.com tcbetka Date: Wed Feb 24, 2016 12:38 pm ((PST)) I know Luiz quite well over Facebook, and have gotten to know him this past year. He is a real artist with Sherline equipment, no question about it. In fact I don't think I would have the system I have if it was not for his help. TB ------- Re: making a living with your cnc Posted by: "Douglas Vogt" dbvogtx~xxyahoo.com dbvogt Date: Wed Feb 24, 2016 1:15 pm ((PST)) A lot of people are probably hobbyists or make a (sort of) living selling to hobbyists but check Nick Carter's site for what some Taig users are doing. Nick sells mostly Taig stuff but I've bought several Sherline accessories from him. http://www.cartertools.com/index.html#TUG ------- Re: making a living with your cnc Posted by: "The Hobby-Machinist" hobbydashmachinistdotcomx~xxyahoo.com Date: Wed Feb 24, 2016 3:21 pm ((PST)) Very nice sites. Thanks, Douglas ------- Re: making a living with your cnc Posted by: karincorbinx~xxgmail.com karincorbin Date: Sat Feb 27, 2016 7:12 pm ((PST)) Yes, I can see that indeed you are coming from a background in art and illustration from the question you are asking. It is so open ended that you are not talking specifics of tooling needs based upon what you might want to manufacture. Sure you can make a living running a Sherline all day. You can also make a living standing in front of an espresso machine all day long (if you own the coffee shop). While you might think I am being sarcastic it is not that. The real money is in precision manufacturing and to be efficient you need the equipment that allows for it with a machine that is working hard at it for a lot of hours a day. You can't be scrapping out parts because they don't consistently meet the dimensions on the production drawing. Will a Sherline meet your needs? There is no way to know that without knowing what you are going to be making and also knowing the quantity, cost of materials, etc. The first step is figure out something that can reliably be made with a Sherline if that is the machine option you feel you must use. Then look and see how many of those items you can make in a given time and what is the cost of materials, labor and other overhead. Most communities have free business mentors who can help you sort all these things into a workable business plan to ensure you have a fighting chance of having enough profit to live on. You will want to find a mentor who specifically understands methods of manufacturing. Then you might also want to consult one who understands marketing. If you are worried about them stealing your idea have them sign non disclosure and non compete paperwork. ------- Re: making a living with your cnc Posted by: "Gabe Pena" gp_illustratorx~xxyahoo.com gp_illustrator Date: Sat Feb 27, 2016 8:34 pm ((PST)) I appreciate the response, but not really what I was asking. I was asking if people make a living using their Sherline machines, not espresso machines or to tell me how to make a living with my Sherline. I've got my endgame in motion already. The reason I mentioned my background was because in my experience, artists don't like other artist knowing how much they make. And a few of the machining forums I've been to have old timers that believe that machining knowledge is some form of arcane secret that you have to sacrifice your first born to be bestowed that knowledge. And I happen to be an Artist that's mechanically inclined, so your dig in the first sentence wasn't necessary. Anyways, thanks ------- Re: making a living with your cnc Posted by: karincorbinx~xxgmail.com karincorbin Date: Sat Feb 27, 2016 11:15 pm ((PST)) I am also an artist who is mechanically inclined. My background has my feet in both worlds. Professional assembly and fabrication in aerospace for Boeing where I was a lead for a number of years and worked on a wide variety of their airplanes in different areas of the operation. I have also been the featured artist at the top galleries in the large metropolitan area I live in. My spine no longer allows me to do all the physical stuff involved in manufacturing so I left and went back to work in the field of architectural illustration working for some of the largest firms in the world but that also allowed me more time to work on my art. Then later after I let that business go in a divorce I began making miniature sized objects for which I now have an international reputation. Because I am left and right brain balanced I can operate machinery, understand technical engineering documents and design in 3D CAD. I have been working in 3D CAD since the mid 1980's. The first CNC machine I used was back in 1982. I also have taken professional training in CNC on industrial machines as well as on the smaller prototyping machines. We have a Roland 650 set up for 4 axis here at the workshop as well as an Epilog laser, and a 3D printer in addition to a Sherline CNC mill with CNC rotary axis for it as well as a Sherline CNC lathe. I also have a Taig CNC mill and even a professional quality vinyl cutter. I have spent a lot of years doing what I am doing with one foot in the world of art and the other in the world of manufacturing. If you want to blow off what I said in the way of advice that is fine with me. But if you want to compare resumes against the advice I gave you, well good luck with that approach because I have already been doing what you want to do for quite a few years. I am glad you have the basis covered in your designs that you want to make. Now I will repeat myself, you need to find out if the Sherline is capable of making what you want and then do the calculations to find out how much your profit will be if your primary concern is being able to support yourself doing it. Or else just commit and go for it. As to myself well I just kind of jumped into it with both feet without being given more than an hour to make a decision about it as a newly single mother who was an artist but had a good amount of math, experience in architectural drafting, college of course and always loved working with tools. The best paying job I could get at that time was being a Rosie the Riveter so that is what I did but it was never all I did ;) ------- Re: making a living with your cnc Posted by: "Hannu Venermo" gcode.fix~xxgmail.com hvenermo Date: Sun Feb 28, 2016 1:22 am ((PST)) Good post. The key here is NOT the sherline. The key is money. A bigger more rigid more powerful machine will do the same thing faster, and usually, more accurately. So, a sherline can certainly make say an excellent sculpture 3 inches high in say 316L stainless steel. It might take the sherline, say, 4 hours. (4 axis work). A medium sized old industrial machine, 5 kw, might do it in 30 minutes. Cutter would likely limit the actual useful power to 0.2-1-2 kW for most of it, on the finish cuts. If your order is for example for 12 pieces (ornamental custom work, handles etc) you would make 8 times more money, per hour, on the bigger machine. It's not at all certain the bigger machine is always the right choice. Mostly it is, upto a certain limit, related to money, and market size, and pricing elasticity. Usually, for making profits, you want the cheapest useful-for-you industrial machine. Some people make (good) money on a 20.000$ 5 axis cnc machine. This is dirt cheap for industrial 5 axis. Very low power, used for jewelry. Google mira. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nDlO782owaY The cheapest "real" 5 axis industrial machine is the Haas UMC, around 100.000 €. hanermo (cnc designs) ------- Re: making a living with your cnc Posted by: "Martin Dobbins" trainnutzx~xxyahoo.com trainnutz Date: Sun Feb 28, 2016 9:20 am ((PST)) Hi Gabe, It's not going to be easy, nothing worthwhile ever is! I think you could use a little inspiration? Have a look here: http://members.rennlist.com/statmandesigns/ Daniel Statman started with Sherline equipment and you can find some of his posts from way back when if you search the Sherline list (not this one). He's a well educated person but wasn't a machinist when he started, I think he gave up tenure at a college to do this. Brad Martin started with a Taig CNC mill, his story is here: http://blog.cnccookbook.com/2016/02/25/customer-spotlight-tactical-key chains-just-guy-making-living-iowa-garage/ There are many others. Good luck and let us know how you get on, there are inquiring minds on this list who will want to know how you did it Martin ------- ------------------------------------------------------------------ This is just one of some 80 files about machining and metalworking and useful workshop subjects that can be read at: http://www.janellestudio.com/metal/index.html ------------------------------------------------------------------