There are many factors to consider in choosing and purchasing a lathe. In most cases, the right lathe: - is one you can find (classics in good condition may take some searching); - priced correctly (a bargain may not be cheap if it needs a lot of expense); - suitable for the type and size of work you anticipate (caution -- a bigger lathe can do smaller work well, but a small lathe may not be capable of doing larger work and force you to trade up, costing you more than buying the big lathe in the first place); - size and weight are safely accommodated in your work area; - noise will not get you evicted. If possible, speak to or correspond with private individuals who are now using the lathes on your short list BEFORE buying one. Prepare your list of questions ahead of time so you do not forget to ask them all. Sometimes a conversation starts out as comparing milling machines and broadens to the same maker's lathe. In the case of makers like Sherline or Taig, that make both types of machine, there are a lot of accessories that work on either their lathe or their mill. For such companies, it may be worth a quick glance at the "Milling Machine Comparisons" text file to get a fuller picture of opinions and experiences about their products. If you got to this file directly from my HOME PAGE, return there by using your browser's back button. BUT if you came to this file as the result of a web search engine, see more than 70 additional files on my home page Machining and Metalworking at Home http://www.janellestudio.com/metal/ SAFETY WARNING BEWARE: DO NOT ASSUME that any subject matter or procedure or process is safe or correct or appropriate just because it was mentioned in a news/user group or was included in these files or on this site or on any other web site or was published in a magazine or book or video. Working with metals and machinery and chemicals and electrical equipment is inherently dangerous. Wear safety devices and clothing as appropriate. Remove watches, rings, and jewellery -- and secure or remove loose clothing -- before operating any machine. Read, understand and follow the latest operating procedures and safety instructions provided by the manufacturer of your machine or tool or product. If you do not have those most recent official instructions, acquire a copy through the manufacturer before operating or using their product. Where the company no longer exists, use the appropriate news or user group to locate an official copy. Be careful -- original instructions may not meet current safety standards. Updated safety information and operating instructions may also be available through a local club, a local professional in the trade, a local business, or an appropriate government agency. In every case, use your common sense before beginning or taking the next step; and do not proceed if you have any questions or doubts about any procedure, or the safety of any procedure. Follow all laws and codes, and employ certified or licenced professionals as required by those laws or codes. Hazardous tasks beyond your competence or expertise should also be contracted to professionals. Let's be really careful out there. (c) Copyright 2003 - 2008 Machining and Metalworking at Home The form of the collected work in this text file (including editing, additions, and notes) is copyrighted and this file is not to be reproduced by any means, including electronic, without written permission except for strictly personal use. ========================================================================== Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2000 08:33:30 -0800 From: "Carl Carlsen" Subject: Lathes from China This post has nothing to do with Atlas/Craftsman lathes, but when you get tired of "tweaking" your old one and perhaps think it is time to buy a new lathe, what would you buy? Here's what an "owner" had to say (off the Model Engineers list) when someone asked a similar question. One man's experience, but I thought it might be interesting to you. Carl "Please do a deja news search on this topic for rec.crafts.metalworking - a number of us have made multiple posts that you might want to read. As a quick rundown on my experiences with a BD920N and a note on the Grizzly: The Grizzly uses a 39x4.0 metric spindle thread that the lathe itself can't cut. I've never seen backing plates offered in this thread, and the tap is expensive (>$100 US if I recall.) The Jet is a 1 1/2 x8 TPI standard spindle thread. If you intend to ever fit a different chuck, this will matter a whole lot! The JET and all chinese 9x20 lathes are kits. Plan on a full tear down and clean up of many fit/finish items. Jet sent me a lot of parts under warranty. Plan on going over ALL gears with a fine wire brush, and likely the leadscrew keyway as well - burrs everywhere. You'll need a Dremel tool and several wire wheels, as well as a larger wire wheel in a bench grinder or drill press held in a vice. A surface plate and a stock of 400 and 600 grit silicon carbide paper will be needed, you'll get real good at low tech methods for lapping surfaces flat. The gear train gear bores will likely not fit the shafts, you'll have to enlarge them via a dowel and emery cloth using a drill press. The keyways may be improperly cut in the gears, a small triangular file will let you fix this. All bearing surfaces on the knobs will need to be lapped flat before the cross slide or compound screws will turn freely and smoothly enough to let you correctly adjust backlash. The four jaw is junk - it's a cheapo woodworking style, the three jaw is almost OK, but will be full of swarf and grinding debris. The spindle is likely too tight in the bearings to allow proper headstock bearing adjustment - tear it down, mount the spindle in another lathe, and carefully polish and reduce OD until the bearings are a firm sliding fit. It goes on from here. About 20 to 40 hours work and it can be made into an OK lathe if you have some tool building/rebuilding experience. It took me about 30 hours to get the lathe into OK running condition, I just did a full tear down for annual cleaning and spent about an extra ten hours improving fits though out, polishing cranks and knobs, and making a better handle for the compound. Mine now runs smoothly and cuts well. Be aware that the compound and crossslide lead screws are metric with imperial calibrated collars, resulting in several thou per revolution error. Jet was very good about getting replacement parts to me, it seems mine was worse than most. Perhaps they have improved the QC functions in China, but recent posts and conversations with fellow club members lead me to think not by much. Should you buy one, let us know how it is out of the box. If you want to contact me off list with specific problems with certain assemblies I'll be happy to pass on specific improvement/correction to problems information. A full rebuild set of instructions would run multiple full pages and I haven't ever written them all up. If I do, I'll post the info to the dropbox. Work is busy though, it won't be happening soon." ------- Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2001 04:09:27 -0000 From: luserx~xxblargh.wpi.edu Subject: Re: Question about the Taig Lathe! In taigtools..., "Ed" wrote: > I was wondering whether or not to buy a Taig Lathe or not. I see > that alot of people use the 7x10 Mini-Lathe but only one or two that > I have seen use the Taig. From the pics at the Taig website itlooks I don't have much experience with my Taig yet, but I will pass long what I have observed. I managed to go to a Harbor Freight outlet at Christmas time. That store is a dangerous place if you have any money on you... but while I was there I got to poke around at the 7x10 that they offer. I wasn't impressed. Although the 7x10 looked more like the DoAll's that I used at school, there was about 0.050 of backlash in all the controls. My taig has 0.003 The over all fit and finish was poor on the 7x10, but that could also be because it was a display model. I could't find a dimension on the 7x10 that could house a 1/4 hp motor. I don't know what it used in there for power. I am happy that I bought a Taig. The thing to remember is that the Taig isn't a scaled down big machine. It is a purpose built small machine. It is more of an instrument or watch makers lathe. Don't let the small size fool you. As the size of the work drops so do the forces generated by cutting. Smaller forces and smaller sizes lead to a more rigid structure, so you don't need as much meat on the lathe. Even so, deflections can and do happen. It encourages you to keep your tools sharp and your pieces well supported. Good habits to have I think. For me the Taig was the right choice. I got a lathe and tooling for a very afordable price. I have the ability to add on and modify as needed, something that I couldn't easily do on a 7x10. Is the taig right for you? It depends on what you are trying to do. Turn your brake rotors - no. Build clocks - yes. Restore a 5x6 inch vertical steam engine - not likely. Build a 1/10 model of said engine - yes. So what are you trying to do? Joe Krzeszewski ------- Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2001 09:06:17 -0500 From: Ken Jenkins Subject: Taig vs 7x10 > I was wondering whether or not to buy a Taig Lathe or not. I see > that alot of people use the 7x10 Mini-Lathe but only one or two that > I have seen use the Taig. Well I doubt you'll find many folk here who think the Taig is "worthless" since this is a Taig group afterall, however, taking your meaning. The 7x10 might be better if threading is all important to you. Although the Taig can be retrofitted for this function it doesn't come with the option. In all other respects, I would be happy to set the Taig up against the 7x10. In terms of workmanship and precision especially. The 7x10's I've seen are pretty sloppy. Also in favor of the Taig, IMHO is the cost of accessories. As always it depends on what you want to do with it. I do a lot of small work in brass, aluminum, plastic and wood. For me it fits the bill perfectly. If you need to pass 1" bar through the headstock ... forget it. Ken ------- Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2001 14:23:34 +0000 From: Tony Jeffree Subject: Re: Question about the Taig Lathe! The Taig lathe is very far from worthless - take a look at some of the stuff in the files section of this eGroup, on Nick Carter's webpage, on my own webpage....etc. to see the kind of things that can be done with it. Having said that, as others have observed, a tool is only useful within its operating envelope, and therefore, the first step in choosing the right lathe is to decide what you will expect it to do for you. I bought mine with clockmaking and related toolmaking activities in mind; I also have a Myford ML7 for stuff that is outside the scope of the Taig's working envelope. For small items, I will use the Taig in preference to the ML7, as it is often easier to set up & use than the ML7 for fine work. For larger items, there is no sensible alternative but to use the bigger lathe. Having seen the 7x10 equivalent machines on sale here in the UK, my own choice of small lathe would still be the Taig, unless I had the time to treat the 7x10 as a "lathe kit" and re-finish it. Regards, Tony ------- Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 12:53:15 -0700 From: "John Shadle" Subject: Taig vs. Oriental 7x10's My response to the comparison of the Taig to the oriental 7x10 is that the oriental 7x10 is junk. The Taig is not. I have an oriental 7x10. A foot away from the chuck a rod held in the chuck is a full 1/8" out-of-line with the bed. Then the plastic drive pulleys broke, and it took a while to get them replaced. No sooner had I done that when the variable speed power supply (or was it the motor?) gave out a puff of blue smoke and died. At that point, the 7x10 was stored in the junk shed for good. The only good part of it was the little chuck, which ran true as long as the lathe ran. If you enjoy headaches, or pounding your thumb with a hammer, buy an oriental 7x10. The Taig may be smaller than you need, but at least it's a well-made machine. One thing I've liked is it's adaptability. You can modify parts of it to suit your own needs better than anything else I've seen. For example, a couple of days ago I reconfigured the toolpost to hold an item which needed a small slit cut. I drilled a hole in the toolpost to hold the item without a thought. Had the post been spoiled for its original use, I would have just sent off for another one for a few bucks. John Shadle online clock building: www.geocities.com/jshadle.geo/online_clock_building/index.html ------- Date: Sun, 04 Mar 2001 22:25:22 -0500 From: Stan Stocker Subject: Re: Question about the Taig Lathe! I also have a bit of time on larger lathes, and bought a Taig for really small work. It's is a very good lathe for the work that fits within its envelope. Here are the minuses - no power feed or single point threading. These haven't bothered me, as in this size I lean towards tap and die anyway. Some vendors offer a 1/10 HP motor with the lathe - skip on this one, it isn't up to the task. I use a old GE 1/2 HP with good results. Sharp tools of the correct geometry are critical to getting good results on lathes of this size. Sherline owners say the same, so this isn't a Taig issue, but one that applies to all the small lathes. I have a SB 13x7 foot, a JET 9x20, an SB Workshop C that is almost through restoration, and a Taig. The Taig is my first choice for the really small stuff. It is a very good value for the money. Stan ------- Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2001 23:20:54 EST From: tadici283x~xxcs.com Subject: Re: Re: Question about the Taig Lathe! Those of us that have both the Taig and the HF 7x10 know that the HF does take some fixing up to get it to "work", I have read some rather harsh words on the little 7x10 wonder, that may or may not be a good representative of the machine's capabilities, but in fairness I can say that the machine is not in my opinion trash. Please no flame wars as to "yes it is, no it isn't", this machine has several features that the Taig doesn't have like built in threading, a frog is nearly half the cost of this lathe, and the machine also has variable speed, yes you can add this via treadmill motor and that is what many of us did with our Taigs, but it is included. The biggest feature of this lathe is weight, it weights some where in the 85 LB area, a lot heaver than that of the Taig and has a built in compound, and MT tailstock and headstock and a leadscrew with power feed. I would say that, first that I love my Taig tools the most, but this machine, if you regard it as more of a kit is capable of doing any work that the Taig can do, in fact I have made many tools, and modifications to my Taig with this machine, you can do small work on a large lathe, but you cannot do large work on a small machine and as stated in other posts it depends on what type of work you need to do. Chris of Bradenton FLA ------- Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 22:26:13 -0500 From: ron ginger Subject: Re: opinions on Prazi david albert wrote: > Does anyone have an opinion of Prazi lathes and mills? I used a Prazi lathe at the demo at Cabin Fever- it was loaned to use by the importer, John Szot. I own a Prazi Mill, the BF450 which I bought after I sold my Grizzley Mini mill. They are well made, German machines. Very high quality, all the fits and finish were just as you would expect from an expensive German import. One minor annoyance on the lathe. The bed is a round bar, the tailstock is held to it by a split casting and clamp arrangement. It has an 'unclamp' screw that must be TIGHTENED to release the tailstock to slide. Then when you get it in position, you loosen the unclamp, and then tighten the clamp screw. A bit strange, and it confused us on the demo, but Im sure you would get used to it with a little practice. It did hold very well. Not cheap, but a good quality machine. A good size step up over Sherline, still smaller than Bridgeports and the usual line of commercial tools. If you drive a BMW you ought to have a Prazi. If you are a Ford or Chevy guy an old Logan Lathe and used Clausing mill will do. ron ginger ------- Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 08:32:29 -0000 From: putomanusx~xxyahoo.com Subject: Clisby Miniature Lathes Anybody here ever seen or worked with a clisby miniature lathe? Their website is at: http://www.clisby.com.au/LatheMetal.html ------- Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 09:50:45 -0400 From: "Timothy M Sullivan" Subject: Why Sherline? I am new to the group, and joined to find more information on which lathe I should buy. I would like to know if the Sherline is indeed better for working smaller parts (1/16" to 1/4" diam) than a larger machine like a 9x20 bench top (like Jet's) or even Micro-Mark's 7x12. I am not in need of thousandths accuracy, but would like something that can handle some aggressive turning. Also, what are the advantages of the Sherline over the Taig? Thanks, Tim Timothy M Sullivan Model Yachts Custom model yachts from pond boat to museum quality http://www.sullboat.com ------- Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 14:12:37 -0000 From: "Jim Lewis" Subject: Re: Clisby Miniature Lathes > Anybody here ever seen or worked with a clisby miniature lathe? I have the Clisby, the Sherline, and the Taig. I need them all for testing our low-cost Frog CNC controller. You can see our Clisby at http://www.emachineshop.com. Assuming you're asking for an opinion, the unit looks very nice and is much less expensive than the Sherline or Taig but you basically get what you pay for. The main problems are that the motor is tiny and hence weak and the 4 jaw chuck is not the greatest. All the dimensions are less also. Large lathe users probably think of the micro lathes as toys. To me the micro lathes are "real" and the Clisby is the toy. Regards, Jim Lewis http://www.emachineshop.com ------- Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 10:51:26 EDT From: tadici283x~xxcs.com Subject: Re: Re: Clisby Miniature Lathes In a message dated 6/14/2001 7:34:13 AM Pacific Daylight Time, jimlewisx~xxmiclog.com writes: > I have the Clisby, the Sherline, and the Taig. I need them all for > testing our low-cost Frog CNC controller. You can see our Clisby at > http://www.emachineshop.com. Assuming you're asking for an opinion, > the unit looks very nice and is much less expensive than the Sherline > or Taig but you basically get what you pay for. The main problems are Jim, I have to say that I am curious about the clisby, I know already that the size is small and intended for small stuff, but how is fit and finish? Are the component parts fairly made well? Would you say that it not worth the money even if you intend to do very small work and not over use it for what it was not designed to do? A lot of people like to modify their tools, with modification can this tool do some real (but smaaalll) work? I have not seen one in person and would like more info did your frog produce good results for what you can get out of it (75 tpi)? Any help would be appreciated, and no I am not going to run out and sell my other machines! Chris of Bradenton FL ------- Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 00:50:14 +1000 From: "Charlie Lear" Subject: Re: Why Sherline? On Thu, 14 Jun 2001, Timothy M Sullivan wrote: >I am new to the group, and joined to find more information on which lathe >I should buy. I would like to know if the Sherline is indeed better for >working smaller parts (1/16" to 1/4" diam) than a larger machine like >a 9x20bench top (like Jet's) or even Micro-Mark's 7x12. I've got both a Sherline 4100 and a Taiwanese 920. The Sherline is far superior in build quality and accuracy out of the box. The range of available accessories (collets, quick change tooling, carbide tools, steadies) can make working with small parts a pleasure. The 920 has six speeds, a top speed of 1800/1900rpm, and unless you have a GOOD example will rattle and vibrate badly at that speed. The Sherline's variable speed of up to 3000rpm is far more suited to smaller work, and as has been mentioned here the headstock is rated at up to 5000rpm if you want to make new pulleys. I've spent a lot of time fettling, fixing and tweaking my 920 to give satisfactory performance. This is my second 920 - my first Chinese-built one was sent back after a year for a full refund. The quality of the 920 is VERY variable, and unless you know what to look for you may be disappointed. A Sherline is guaranteed to be excellent from day one. HOWEVER: The Sherline longitudinal feed is via the leadscrew. If you are in the habit of pulling the saddle clear to check tools or make measurements, your thumb and forefinger will soon get grooves worn from the leadscrew handwheel. You may want to invest in the power feed attachment, or look at making some sort of adapter to use a battery screwdriver on the handwheel. Racking the saddle on a larger lathe is much nicer. Also the lack of adjustment on the Sherline tailstock may grate if you are after the last thou of accuracy. To get around this, Sherline does offer adjustable centres and drill chuck adapters. The 920 tailstock is adjustable and in my experience will need to be adjusted, both for horizontal and vertical alignment. I've uncovered a problem with my 920 tailstock in that using the screw adjustment twists the body of the tailstock against the base, so that the centre is in line but its pointing off at a small angle! I'm working on that one. > I am not in need of thousandths accuracy, but would like something > that can handle some aggressive turning. You don't want to be too aggressive with small stock. High speed and sharp tools will do what you want without straining the machinery or forcing the pace. I did some 6mm (1/4") one-pass cuts in brass on the weekend using a positive rake carbide tool on the 920. That was after a strip-down, clean and adjustment session, and VERY carefully hand feeding. I wouldn't do that on the Sherline, but 1/8" roughing cuts shouldn't present a problem. I guess one of the questions you have to ask is, how much time do you want to spend cutting metal versus the amount of time spent playing with the machine to get it going properly? > Also, what are the advantages of the Sherline over the Taig? I've never used a Taig, but I've seen one up close. Those who have them swear by them. I prefer the Sherline's quality and accessories, if you're making lots of small holes the Taig's lever-feed tailstock is a boon. Your mileage may vary! Hope that fills in some of the gaps in the jigsaw. Cheers Charlie Charlie Lear, Melbourne, Australia clearx~xxsteammachine.com Hutt Valley Model Engineer Soc. http://steammachine.com/hvmes Eastern Bays Little Blue Penguin Foundation: same site /penguins ------- Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 15:31:27 -0000 From: "Jim Lewis" Subject: Re: Clisby Miniature Lathes > I have to say that I am curious about the Clisby, I know already > that the size is small and intended for small stuff, but how is fit > and finish? Hi Chris: I would say quite good. I mainly don't like the way they did the chuck - hard to explain - just uncomfortable to work with. > are the component parts fairly made well? Yes. > would you say that it not worth the money even if you intend to do very small work and not over use it for what it was not designed to do? It's about 1/5 the price of the Sherline and about 1/5 as useful. > a lot of people like to modify their tools, with modification can > this tool do some real (but smaaaalllllll) work? If you could rig up a decent motor and chuck you might be in decent shape. I don't have their 3-jaw - it might be better. > I have not seen one in person and would like more info did your > frog produce good results for what you can get out of it (75 tpi)? The Frog worked well on it but the Clisby motor is really too weak for threading. The Frog stepper is much stronger than the Clisby main spindle motor! For Frog functions other than threading (power feed, precise measurement, etc) it worked well on the Clisby. Regards, Jim http://www.emachineshop.com/frog ------- Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 08:57:22 -0700 From: "Yasmiin Davis" Subject: RE: Why Sherline? This is a nice comparison of the two alternatives. I was wondering what your opinion of the effect on rigidity using the Sherline riser blocks? Yasmiin ------- Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 09:16:35 -0700 From: "Craig Libuse" Subject: Re: Clisby Miniature Lathes > Anybody here ever seen or worked with a clisby miniature lathe? Their > website is at .... http://www.clisby.com.au/LatheMetal.html This is just some info you might find interesting on the Clisby lathe and the inventor, Harold Clisby. As you may know, he is also the inventor of the Sherline lathe. Back in the 60's, he is the one who saw the Unimat as a great little product with too much flexibility. He came up with the concept of using extrusions to keep cost down while increasing rigidity. We have the original shop drawings for his design on the wall in our showroom, and it is immediately recognizable as the Sherline lathe still sold today with only minor changes over the years. His concept was solid enough to withstand the test of time. Mr. Clisby and his son, Orville visited our factory a couple of years ago. He is one incredibly talented designer. The range of products he has designed and successfully marketed is far beyond what most people attempt. He has designed and built everything from his own home to machine tools (large and small) to air compressors to things as far in the other direction as a line of women's clothing. I also recently came across an article in the January 1963 issue of Road & Track magazine detailing the 1500cc V-6 DOC Formula I engine he designed and built. His latest product is the small Clisby lathe. We have a Clisby lathe and complete accessory line for this tool in our showroom which he kindly contributed to our display of miniature machine tools. Although I have not run it, it seems to be built of good quality and designed appropriately for the small motor and the asking price. You will see some design features in common with the Sherline, which is not surprising considering its heritage, but it is VERY small. It would be appropriate if space and/or budget were very limited or mobility were a prime requirement and the parts needed were quite small. Other than that, it might be worth getting just because it is a cool little machine and somewhat of a conversation piece. I can certainly vouch for the designer/manufacturer as a man of great talent and integrity. Craig Libuse Sherline Products Inc. ------- Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 17:22:29 -0000 From: ptolemyx~xxbellsouth.net Subject: Re: Why Sherline? Charlie's review is excellent. I like the range of attachments and tooling on the Sherline. I use the lathe and mill about 50/50 and it's convenient that both use the same standards for T-nuts,etc. It's amazing how many of the add-ons have become indispensible to me (especially the rotary table for the mill and the compound slide for the lathe). Neil ------- Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 19:42:19 -0000 From: markzemanekx~xxyahoo.com Subject: Re: Clisby Miniature Lathes In sherline..., "Jim Lewis" wrote: > > Anybody here ever seen or worked with a clisby miniature lathe? Jim: I bought one of the Clisby's last December, when they were on sale for $100. I also purchased the longer bed, separately, and the total cost was still less than the going rate for the long bed version (U.S. $179). I'm completely new to machining, and my main hobby is telescope making. I wanted something I could use to make focusers for my scopes (my eyepieces have 1-1/4" wide tubes). I also have very limited space, and needed something really small. I know that I'm going to have to make some modifications to the Clisby for my intended purposes. I'd like to add some risers to it, if possible, in order to handle the slightly larger stock needed for the size I mentioned above. Am I trying to take this little lathe out of its league? >The main problems are that the motor is tiny and hence weak and the >4 jaw chuck is not the greatest. Exactly what my machinist friend said. He suggests I replace the tiny power plant with something akin to a sewing machine motor. I'm not delighted with the 4 jaw chuck, either, and my friend suggested buying one of Sherline's 3 jaw chucks and making an adapter/spindle to place it on the Clisby's drive shaft. Its larger size will make the risers a necessity if I were to go this route. Thanks, Mark ------- Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 13:20:00 +1000 From: "Charlie Lear" Subject: RE: Why Sherline? On Thu, 14 Jun 2001 08:57:22 -0700, Yasmiin Davis wrote: >This is a nice comparison of the two alternatives. I was >wondering what your opinion of the effect on rigidity using >the Sherline riser blocks? Never sold them, never used them. If I've got something too big for the Sherline to handle without risers, then it goes in a bigger lathe. Not everybody has that luxury, so I'd be willing to hear from riser block users too! Cheers Charlie Charlie Lear, Melbourne, Australia clearx~xxsteammachine.com Hutt Valley Model Engineer Soc. http://steammachine.com/hvmes Eastern Bays Little Blue Penguin Foundation: same site /penguins ------- Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 01:23:20 -0400 From: "Wilks, Ronald (Ronald)" Subject: RE: Model Bridgeport [sherline] Original Message----- >>?>From: jvicarsx~xxcoltec.com [mailto:jvicarsx~xxcoltec.com] Sent: Friday, June 15, Has anyone ever seen or heard of a 1/4 scale or smaller model of a bridgeport milling machine? Is there a link on sherline's website where we can see all of the miniature machines in the Sherline museum? <<< Take a look at Barry Jordan's home page listed below. He is a model engineer from England who specializes in models of machine tools. http://www.barryjordan.freeola.com Two Bridgeport machines are featured on his WWW site, a 1/5 scale model, as well as an even smaller replica. Ron -------- From: torquemada40223x~xxy... Date: Tue Jun 26, 2001 9:10 am Subject: Re: Lathe purchasing advice? [taigtools] In taigtools..., gregs_junk... wrote: > I'm researching the various lathe options available to an > inexperienced garage experimenter such as myself. I built a robot > and competed in the 2001 battlebots tournament and want to buy a > small lathe so that I can make things like custom wheel hubs and > drive shafts for future robots. I've been reading everything I can > get my hands on about the subject including many many web pages. > The kinds of parts I will need to turn will be up to 4" diameter and > usually made out of 6061 Al. I'm considering the following: > Taig Lathe - Sounds like a good reliable lathe but can it handle > parts of this size? Sherline Lathe - Same situation as the Taig. > Import 7x12 Lathe - AFAIK, this one is larger than both the Taig and > Sherline and should (barely?) be able to handle 4" parts. But the > quality of these is suspect. Can someone as inexperienced as I > handle "fixing" one of these machines? A good thing is that there > seems to be a large number of people out there improving these machines. > Import 9x20 Lathe - Definitely big enough but even more quality > question marks than the 7x12 aparently. Weight becomes an issue as > well, how will I *move* the thing! Used 9" South Bend or other - As > far as I can gather, used American lathes can be very nice but will > I know a gem from trash? Weight also an issue here. > Any advice greatly appreciated! thanks, greg Gregs_Junk--I've done a lot of similar research when I prepared to get my setup 10 months ago. I wound up with a long-bed Sherline, which I'm very happy with. However, if I didn't have a lathe, I'd probably go out and get a Taig. The reasons I got the Sherline were that (a) it's widely known, (b) has a wide variety of accessories, (c) has a long-bed version, and (d) seems to be a bit more 'total novice' friendly. While I've not actually played with a Taig, from discussions I've seen, it apparently has the advantages of (a) lower cost, (b) being more rigid. All in all, I'm very happy with my choice. However, now that I'm not quite so much a novice, if I had to purchase a lathe, I'd probably go with a Taig this time. Reasons? (a) I don't use the long bed, as I though I might--in fact, I've used the tailstock only once--nearly all of my work is up close to the chuck. (b) I'm not as much of a novice as I was, so the Taig doesn't seem nearly so intimidating to me. I've no experience with the Chinese machines, but after all I've read, I'd consider them an interesting project *AFTER* I learn more. After all, if you don't have experience, if you cut some metal and it doesn't turn out the way you want, how do you know if it's your technique or some flaw in the machine? I'd suggest a Sherline or Taig for your first lathe. Most of your stuff is going to be small for your robots, so these should both have a nice size for you. If you occasionally need to turn something in the neighborhood of 4", you might lean towards the Sherline and get the riser blocks for it to give you the extra swing when you need it. marco ------- From: phil-jasterx~xxe... Date: Tue Jun 26, 2001 2:57 pm Subject: Re: Lathe purchasing advice? > The kinds of parts I will need to turn will be up to 4" diameter and > usually made out of 6061 Al. I'm considering the following: > Taig Lathe - Sounds like a good reliable lathe but can it handle > parts of this size? Greg: I would suggest saving big dollars for later... right now I would suggest the TAIG as an excellent learning lathe and you will continue to use it if IF you buy a larger lathe later! You can outfit all your your TAIG needs for the price of a basic Sherline..... since you are already a Junk Yard specialist you probably have a good 1/3 hp motor to spin that TAIG lathe... I am totally sold on the performance of the TAIG and own TWO of them one just for wood one for metals.... Hope that helps and keep on BOTing! phil ------- From: John Ralston Date: Fri Jun 29, 2001 12:24 am Subject: Taig hybrid for building tiny tools Hello Taigers--I hope you can help with some advice and consultation. My hobby, watch repair, is a business of careful tiny parts. Usually one buys a part ,or cannibalizes a watch. Actually making screws, staffs, and arbors on the nanoscale is painful: I have made enough tiny parts on a wood-lathe via archaic methods using a graver that I deserve a break. I've decided that the fun of making tooling to work on the watches is a realistic excuse to buy a real lathe, and narrowed the choices to Taig or Sherline. Specifically I want to build a device I've seen, to be run on the lathe, for turning smaller parts. This device involves primitive tiny spindles, runners, and adjustable centers that are scaled down to the appropriate 5 x loupe and 0.1- 1.0 cm working distance of the watchmaker. My current plan comes from reading many of your helpful discussions in the archives. I've also read enough of the Carter tools, Taig, and Sherline etc. links to have a few basic ideas. Here is my plan: 1) Get a basic Taig lathe, and a Sherline motor with control. Right/wrong? 2) Immediately turn a spacer to fit a Sherline 3 jaw chuck. 3) Run with a Sherline 3 jaw chuck and a few Sherline fancy accessories, along with as many Taig accessories as I can use, in an effort to have the best of both worlds. I've decided the Taig is better because: ** It is less well known ** There are dovetails all over to mount things **The lead screw to move the Sherline carriage must be agony to work. Right or wrong? **The tailstock on the Sherline looks pitiful and unadjustable **Taig accessories run about 1/2 of Sherline cost. The down side of the Taig is: ** It is less well known **I hate the idea of a 1/4 -1/2 horse 1725 RPM washing machine motor grabbing a sleeve and ripping my arm off. **The 3 jaw chuck seems to be aluminum, not steel, and quite a flesh-eater. I'll buzz my nose off on it. **Cosmetics, it cannot be denied, are an element of fancy machine tools, and the Sherline appears to be prettied up better. Wrong? I'd appreciate your insights. In particular, I am willing to pay the money for either route: if Sherline might objectively justify the cost, then paying the money for good tools is always worth it. I have a notion that the Taig is a better design, with the Sherline having better promotion. I hope that you can add some useful information to help my choice of a hybrid. thanks John Ralston ------- From: phil-jasterx~xxe... Date: Fri Jun 29, 2001 1:44 am Subject: Re: Taig hybrid for building tiny tools > **I hate the idea of a 1/4 -1/2 horse 1725 RPM washing machine motor > grabbing a sleeve and ripping my arm off. ::::> humor huh, you'll fit in great with this group.... I have yet to rip a sleave off.... Oh I am not using a washing machine motor! > **The 3 jaw chuck seems to be aluminum, not steel, and quite a > flesh-eater. I'll buzz my nose off on it. :::::> Lee Valley Tools sells a great cuff that goes over its got color and says don't get your nose to close in three different languages. > **Cosmetics, it cannot be denied, are an element of fancy machine > tools, and the Sherline appears to be prettied up better. Wrong? ::::::> I am VERY happy to have the lack of cosmetics in liew of higher grade of lathe! You can chrome plate and spiff up plastic but the TAIG is a very Robust Quality built Lathe, comes in one color and that was good for Ford and is Good for the owners of TAIG LATHES! you have got it advertising by owners is the best.... BTW I own two TAIG lathes, one for wood one for metal! Good luck on your watch repairing. phil ------- From: Tony Jeffree Date: Fri Jun 29, 2001 3:51 am Subject: Re: [taigtools] Taig hybrid for building tiny tools >1) Get a basic Taig lathe, and a Sherline motor with control.. Right or >wrong? Good combination. The variable speed is great. If you use the Taig pulley set, this will give you a speed range from dead slow up to about 14,000 RPM (I have this combo on my Taig mill - same headstock/pulleys as the lathe). >2) Immediately turn a spacer to fit a Sherline 3 jaw chuck. >3) Run with a Sherline 3 jaw chuck and a few Sherline fancy >accessories, along with as many Taig accessories as I can use, in an >effort to have the best of both worlds. Horses for courses. Sherline does nice chucks, but the Taig soft jaw chuck has its uses too - you can modify the jaws for specific purposes - the jaw sets are a consumable. This feature is *very* useful. >I've decided the Taig is better because: >** It is less well known >** There are dovetails all over to mount things >**The lead screw to move the Sherline carriage must be agony to work. >Right or wrong? Yes. I have fitted a 20TPI leadscrew to my Taig, but it has a split nut & can therefore be disengaged. Attempting to traverse by hand with the leadscrew is very slow. >**The tailstock on the Sherline looks pitiful and unadjustable On the other hand, the Sherline tailstock is an MT taper, which can be useful. >**Taig accessories run about 1/2 of Sherline cost. True. >The down side of the Taig is: >** It is less well known >**I hate the idea of a 1/4 -1/2 horse 1725 RPM washing machine motor >grabbing a sleeve and ripping my arm off. So do I - but don't make the mistake of assuming that the Sherline motor isn't just as capable of ripping your arm off. I believe their motor is a similar power rating. >**The 3 jaw chuck seems to be aluminum, not steel, and quite a >flesh-eater. I'll buzz my nose off on it. ...but see comments above. And for small work, the Taig collets are very useful & cheap. You might even consider a Taig with a WW taper headstock if your primary interest is small parts. >**Cosmetics, it cannot be denied, are an element of fancy machine >tools, and the Sherline appears to be prettied up better. Wrong? Yes - the Sherline machines look "prettier", but the Taig machines are more robust/rigid. I think your notion pretty much coincides with mine. Taig have never been heavy on advertising/marketing - they seem to feel that their machines speak for themselves. And they do that eloquently in my opinion. To some extent, you can have the best of both worlds - I have bought a number of Sherline accessories over the past few years that I use with my Taig mill, and no doubt some of their stuff (like their chucks) can be adapted for use with the lathe. Regards, Tony ------- From: torquemada40223... Date: Fri Jun 29, 2001 7:06 am Subject: Re: Taig hybrid for building tiny tools John-- I'm a Sherliner right now, but... > 1) Get a basic Taig lathe, and a Sherline motor with control.. That sounds like a good plan. I *love* the variable speed motor. However, many people find that there's a surplus store that offers (from time to time) a DC motor and variable speed controller combination for a reasonable price. (Lower than Sherline's.) Sorry, but I don't know the particulars (name of company, phone #...) > 3) Run with a Sherline 3 jaw chuck and a few Sherline fancy > accessories, along with as many Taig accessories as I can use I *really* like the rotary table... > **The lead screw to move the Sherline carriage must be agony to work. Uh, well, not agony. But then again, not a joy, either. I've been thinking of adding a power feed so I can quick cranking the knob. > **Taig accessories run about 1/2 of Sherline cost. Yep. Sherline offers more accessories, but the ones Taig offers are less costly. marco ------- From: n2562001x~xxy... Date: Fri Jun 29, 2001 2:16 pm Subject: Re: Taig hybrid for building tiny tools Tom Wrote > Not sure on this one. One of the reasons Jerry Kieffer prefers the > Sherline to the Taig is the tailstock. Apparently it's unadjustable, > but it's rigid as hell. Tom: Having owned both lathes and they are both rigid enough for the size of the lathes. Most of my model parts are about ten times the size of pocket watch parts to about one third the size of parts in a ladies wrist watch. With that in mind there are three reasons I prefer the Sherline tail stock. (1) The morse taper mount offers absolute repeatability of the chuck installation. (I use Albrecht and Rohm chucks.) (2) Sherline offers a device to adjust the chuck in all directions for centering not just right or left. For example if you are using a good quality .010" spade drill and your .001"- .002" off in any direction, you probably just broke the drill. (3) The ram is fed by a lead screw. When using small tooling you need absolute feed and depth control that I could not get with the lever feed. I tried several modifications but was never able to get the light touch I have and need now. By the way did you ever purchase that Rohm drill chuck and if so how is it working out? Jerry Kieffer ------- From: "David Robertson" Date: Fri Jun 29, 2001 12:29 pm Subject: Re: [taigtools] Taig hybrid for building tiny tools John: A few additional comments in addition to the good ones you have already gotten. > 3) Run with a Sherline 3 jaw chuck and a few Sherline fancy > accessories, along with as many Taig accessories as I can use, in an > effort to have the best of both worlds. I think someone else mentioned Taig is available with a WW spindle. If you decide you want to have the regular spindle to use Taig collets, you can easily make a WW chuck/holder from a blank arbor to allow use of WW collets in addition to the Taig ones. > **The tailstock on the Sherline looks pitiful and unadjustable I do clock repair and one of the things that led me away from the Sherline to the Taig was the tailstock. Many have had alignment problems with the non-adjustable Sherline tailstock. You can compensate for it somewhat by slightly rotating the headstock and Sherline makes a series of devices to correct the problem. They are essentially sliding disks... one end fits in the tailstock taper, the other end holds either a jacobs chuck, a collet or something else I can't remember... anyway there are three of these devices and they are about $30 each. They also take up space between centers which probably isn't a concern for most of your watchmaking activities but is for other things. I assume from your comments that you are planning on fitting some sort of turns to the Taig or Sherline... or some headstock/tailstock held fixtures to make it act like a set of turns... ?? any plans/drawings/pictures would be appreciated. Dave ------- From: Stan Stocker Date: Sat Jun 30, 2001 2:05 am Subject: Re: [taigtools] Taig hybrid for building tiny tools John: I'm neither a watch nor a clock maker, but I have made some quite small parts over the years. I'll answer what I can BELOW the original question and try not to comment where I'm ignorant. I have used both Taig and Sherline lathes. After using them both, I bought a Taig. Other members of my club have Sherlines. Both companies are good reputable folks making good lathes. Different designs, different philosophies. Freehanding watch parts on a wood lathe - you are to be honored at the least, and perhaps held in awe! I thought I'd pulled off some hairy ones until I read your post. Big item. You can buy a threading (hand cranked, not power single pointing) setup for Sherline. Is it even reasonable to consider this in the sizes you work with, or are tiny threads always done via die stocks or chasing? There is a device (the FROG) that adds a stepper motor to the Taig carriage wheel and adds fine thread cutting under power ability to the Taig. I saw it at Cabin Fever and was sorely tempted, but spent my limit on things needed more. Maybe next year. > Here is my plan: 1) Get a basic Taig lathe, and a Sherline motor > with control.. Right or wrong? Good possibility, another option is the PM variable speed motor offered from Surplus center, or try the existing pulley set with a 1/6 to 1/2 HP motor. See if you need VS. I have it on one lathe and not on the others. It's nice, but not mandatory. The VS here is on a 13 inch lathe, mostly to let me get the speed down for large work when the back gears aren't slow enough, such as threading large shaft to a shoulder. Beats having to juggle multiple jackshafts. > 2) Immediately turn a spacer to fit a Sherline 3 jaw chuck. OK, if you want steel jaws on your three jaw chuck. You could also make steel jaws to put in place when needed on the Taig 3 jaw and discover the benefits of soft jaws as time allows. For really accurate work where you are not going to turn the OD of the entire work and part off, three jaw chucks are only good to several thou at most sizes, and when trued are only true for the size you trued them at. Never end a sentence with a preposition either ;-) If you need precision, a four jaw chuck and a dial indicator will give you steel jaws and the ability to set work to whatever level of precision you require and have the patience to dial in. Personally, I don't like the spacer approach. I mate the chuck to the spindle it is to go on. If you don't have a mill and boring head, you can do this on the lathe using a faceplate and some dial indicator work. I'd rather bore the register to fit than add two more interface layers to worry about keeping clean and undamaged. Not having a Sherline chuck, I don't know for a fact that there is enough depth to do this, but if there is, I'd go the traditional route rather than adding a spacer. A burr on the spacer could cock the chuck, resulting in turning a taper when you don't want to. Collets are even better. WW collets can be mounted in the Taig headstock with a WW spindle, or you can make a WW adapter from an arbor mounted to the standard spindle. Cost to make the adapter would be only a few dollars and an hour or so in time. If you are always going to turn the entire piece from larger stock, the stock collet set for the standard spindle covers a limited range, but might hold some useful raw rod stock sizes. Blank collets are cheap, but I don't think they would work as well as WW collets in the smallest sizes. Perhaps a drill chuck with the drill chuck arbor mounted in the headstock would give you the smaller size workholding ability at a far lower cost than a full set of WW collets. You could also purchase a complete headstock in each configuration, and have the best of both worlds. > 3) Run with a Sherline 3 jaw chuck and a few Sherline fancy > accessories, along with as many Taig accessories as I can use, in an > effort to have the best of both worlds. Sherline does make some nice stuff. 3 jaw approaches/alternatives beaten to death above ;-) > I've decided the Taig is better because: > ** It is less well known Depends where you are and what you read, but as a rule this is likely true. Doesn't make it better or worse. > ** There are dovetails all over to mount things Nope, they are T slots, you can make baby T nuts or use #10 square nuts. Default thread is 10-32, although 10-24 is better if you are threading in aluminum or brass. > **The lead screw to move the Sherline carriage must be agony to work. Yup, you can crank a LONG time to traverse from one end to the other. Long bed version is even worse. Make an adapter to let you run the screw with a small cordless screwdriver if you go with Sherline, although the crank might give you better control in the sizes you are working with. You'll likely want to rig up a leadscrew for fine feed for the Taig, using a toggle type of nut so you can disengage it easily for larger carriage movements via the rack. > Right or wrong? > **The tailstock on the Sherline looks pitiful and unadjustable One of the CAMS club members is tuning a Sherline tailstock and is finding it somewhat painful. It is not adjustable for set over. Upside is that the Sherline tailstock takes a MT1, so you can mount ultimoso drill chuck like the tiny Albrecht, should you have the spare $140 or so. I've considered making a MT1 tailstock ram to allow this, as well as a screw feed for precise small hole drilling, but haven't done it so far. You could also mount a plate to the Taig tailstock ram and mount a chuck to another plate. Some cap screws in slightly oversize holes would give the ability to adjust the drill to dead-on the spindle centerline. Sherline offers something similar for their lathes. A 1/8 inch bit doesn't care if its cutting 3 thou offline, a #80 that far off is called broken. > **Taig accessories run about 1/2 of Sherline cost. About that. Some are even less. Sherline offers some neat things Taig doesn't, Taig offers some neat things Sherline doesn't. > The down side of the Taig is: > ** It is less well known As above. Also no ability to turn the headstock, a nice feature of the Sherline should you want to turn tapers longer than the compound travel that are steeper than can be done comfortably by tailstock offset on the Taig, or without having to dial in each blank or cut and center drill blanks to precisely identical dimensions. > **I hate the idea of a 1/4 -1/2 horse 1725 RPM washing machine motor > grabbing a sleeve and ripping my arm off. I use an old GE 1/2 HP pump motor, no open windings! Or use an after- market VS motor as mentioned above. Roll up your sleeves or button them. Flapping fabric isn't safe around spinning stuff in any case, the work or chuck will grab it long before your hand gets back to the motor! > **The 3 jaw chuck seems to be aluminum, not steel, and quite a > flesh-eater. I'll buzz my nose off on it. The chuck and sub jaws are steel, only the interchangable upper jaws are aluminum. You can turn the soft jaws to whatever profile you want. If you want the traditional stepped three jaw look or function, you can cut your jaws that way. Spare jaws are only about $6 a set, so you can afford to make specialty jaws without going broke. If you have a mill, or access to one, you could crank out a bunch of blank jaws pretty quickly, but only if you enjoy the work. $2 a jaw is pretty hard to beat if you'd rather use your free time on other things. Wrap a large rubber band cut from an inner tube around the chuck, this won't disappear at high speeds as the jaw tips do, and will pad that fine initial contact with the stray knuckle or nose tip. The perimeter of any spinning chuck is a caution area, I've bloodied up a knuckle on the larger lathes far more often than on the Taig. > **Cosmetics, it cannot be denied, are an element of fancy machine > tools, and the Sherline appears to be prettied up better. Wrong? Right. The Sherline looks good. The Taig is made to be very flexible, without having to drill and tap holes for anything you want to cobble together. If you like the looks of the Sherline better and don't want or need the flexibility of all those places to mount stuff, go with it. This isn't meant in a smart mouthed way, I just repainted a 1939 SB lathe that was fine mechanically. It is important to me to have stuff I use for hours at a time attractive to look at. Used tools always get cleaned up, polished up, repainted, whatever is reasonable (and often unreasonable) to get them to new or close to new condition. Aesthetics is part of the pleasure. The Taig is attractive in the way an old Willys Jeep is. Basic, rugged, adaptable. A Sherline is attractive in a Miata way - nice out of the box, fun in its intended application range, but harder to adapt to oddball needs. Some see the beauty in both, some in only one or the other. Given your application, 'll bet you can find lots of neat things to add on to those T slots - polishing shafts, jascot drums, line/live shaft mounting points, dial indicators, indexing wheel stop pins and indicators, insert neato thing folks ignorant of watchmaking have never even heard of here ;-) Sherline advertises a lot, and does a lot to promote the hobby. Their website is a fine one, with lots of good information for small machine owners, regardless of the brand of tool they own. Taig makes lathes and mills as almost a sideline to keep very high end CNC stuff busy between serious high end gigs as I understand things. There is an old joke about a watchmakers apprentice who goes to get a job at a local machine shop in lean times. After the oral interview with the foreman, he is taken on a shop tour. The foreman sees him gawking at a guy tapping a 1/4-20 hole. When asked "What's with you? Never seen a tap before?", the apprentice replies "Sure, thousands of times. I just never knew you could get them in such huge sizes!" Stan ------- Date: Tue, 02 Oct 2001 02:20:37 -0700 From: S1 Subject: Re: Atlas Through Bore (Was Re: Atlas Price) [Q RE QUALITY OF ASIAN LATHES TODAY] Harbor Freight.com, Grizzly, and Enco are all decent places to buy these machines. They are all essentially the same machine no matter who "makes" them. My friend has one of these ans he says they aren't to bad. They are not a Gear-head Logan, or South Bend by any means, but if you are the only user, and you take care of it, it will last you a long time. The only complaint I've heard about these Asian 12X36 gear-head lathes are as follows: in industrial locations where these machines are sometimes used for mass production, the gear heads wear out much faster than a high-end machine. Unless you are in the Rifle-barrel business and have to mass produce barrels, these machines are just fine for us home users. I would take one of these Asian 12X36 gear-head machines over a used Belt-drive Southbend/ Logan/Atlas any day. The gear drive is a real time saver because there is no slippage (like in a belt drive system), allowing more stock removed per pass and/or faster carriage feed rates. Gabe ------- Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2001 22:36:47 -0400 From: "Carol & Jerry Jankura" Subject: RE: thinking about buying a sherline Shawn - It's difficult to answer your question since you've provided no information about how you plan to use the machinery. Is Sherline machinery robust - yes, for the money it is. Does it compare with industrial tools? Hardly; it's not really intended to. It's made from extrusions, aluminum castings, and some steel. The Industrial machines are made of cast iron and steel. But, the real information that you need can be offered only if you provide information about what you plan to do with the equipment and what size parts you'll be working with. For example, if you're into HO scale model railroading, I'd venture to say that there's little, if anything, that the Sherline mill and lathe cannot do. I'd further suggest that you purchase the 4400 "long bed" lathe in preference to the 4000 "short bed" lathe if you have the space, even if it looks as if your needs don't require it. I've found that sometimes the chuck and reamer I want to use take up enough space on the bed that, had I purchased the 4000 machine, I wouldn't have room. Another nice thing is that Sherline offers a pretty complete line of accessories compared to what's available from some of the other desktop tool companies. And, that line seems to be growing. Does the company take care of their customers? I can only answer about the treatment I've gotten from them. Courteous, timely, and no hassle. Every bit as good as the service I've received dealing with ShopSmith. Should I buy directly from Sherline? Well, you might get better pricing from some of their dealers. And just about every dealer has Sherline ship directly to the customer, so you'll not get any "old" stock sitting on a dealer's shelf. Look on Sherline's web site and then query some dealers directly. Discounts vary from perhaps 5% off list to perhaps 15% off list, sometimes more for the "Internet Special." Personally, I bought the tools themselves from a local dealer that had them in stock (The price wasn't as good as on the internet, but being able to touch and feel what I was buying was worth the extra price) and then bought the accessories over the net. Also, unless you already have a bunch of tooling, it's better to buy one of their "package deals" that provide the basics with the machines. I hope this helps you get started. Once you've decided on how you want to use the equipment, please post additonal questions. There are plenty of folks on this list more knowledgeable then me who will provide solid information. Jerry Jankura Strongsville, Ohio So many toys, so little time.... ------- Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2001 10:04:34 -0800 From: "Craig Libuse" Subject: Re: Advice request - Lathe Rigidity, Short Bed vs. Long. > I'm looking to buy a new Sherline - but I keep going back and forth > between the long and short bed versions. I don't think I'd often > need the longer bed - but I wouldn't mind the extra cost just in > case - as long as there's no "down side". Especially considering the > better spec'd "A" package on the long bed(IMHO). I've been wondering > if there's any wisdom out there concerning wether the short bed > is "stiffer" in any meaningful way you'd ever notice - particularly > when working harder material types. The additional equipment that comes standard on the long bed lathe (adjustable "zero" handwheels, rocker toolpost and larger chucks with the A package) more than makes up for the difference in price if purchased separately, so the extra distance is essentially free. If you like the extra features, the only reasons for not buying the longer lathe would be if you lack of available bench space or if the extra cost is a major factor. The cast base on the long lathe is taller in cross section than the shorter lathe which adds to the stiffness. A properly mounted longbed lathe should not exhibit any noticable difference in stiffness compared to the shorter version. I would predict that if you buy the long bed lathe and use it extensively, it will not be a month before you realize that you are doing a job that would not have been possible on the shorter one. On the other hand, if you only work on very small parts like many watchmakers and jewelers, you may never run into a job that requires more distance than the short bed lathe offers. One advantage of the short lathe is that you don't have to reach so far for the leadscrew handwheel. In short, if you anticipate you might ever have a use for even part of the additional 9" of center-to-center distance, the extra cost is well justified, assuming space is not a consideration. Lack of stiffness is not a problem. Craig Libuse Sherline Products ------- Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2001 10:36:49 -0800 From: "Yasmiin Davis" Subject: RE: Re: Advice request - Lathe Rigidity, Short Bed vs. Long. Just one other point -- if you only use the short section of the bed the long bed it will be as stiff as the short bed. Its only when you are using portions of the bed beyond the length of the short bed that the extra spring / twist come will come into play. Yasmiin ------- Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2001 18:51:21 -0000 From: jimknightonx~xxworldnet.att.net Subject: Re: Advice request - Lathe Rigidity, Short Bed vs. Long. This issue has pretty much been beat to death, but just to add my $.02, keep in mind that the lathe is a relatively light construction. I seem to recall a recent post about someone having bolted a long bed lathe to a warped tabletop and then discovered that the bed twisted enough that accuracy suffered noticably. I suppose both a short and long bed could suffer from this syndrome, but who knows? Perhaps the long bed (which I have as well) is more suseptible. There are lots of alternatives for a baseboard, but the Sherline literature discourages bolting directly to the tabletop. Personally, I used a 36" length of 10" aluminum channel (3.5" sides for stiffness and extra height). The channel had no warp or twist and was heavy enough to provide a very stable platform. It is also easy to drill and tap holes for accessories, setups, etc. Jim Knighton ------- Date: Fri, 17 May 2002 16:33:58 -0500 From: "Troy Burns" Subject: Re: Thinking of buying a taig lathe, who to buy from? P.T. I think they are apples and oranges. The Taig lathe is responsible for a lot of very fine work from a number of people, but it is not designed to cut threads. The Taig is more of a do-it-yourself project, with the customers able to buy kits, furnish their own motor, etc. The Homier 7X12 is a huskier tool altogether, is designed to cut threads, and will just handle heavier work. For the reasoning of an expert who has used a Taig but has bought a Chinese made Busy Bee (a Canadian imported 7X8 which is a shorter version of the Homier), see J. R. Bentley's website at http://www.jrbentley.com/ If you were to emulate Mr. Bentley's work with either lathe, you would go far. I have a Homier lathe and a Taig mill, and I like both of them. If I had a Taig lathe instead, I believe I would like it also; but not when I needed to thread something on the lathe. For the Taig dealer I can recommend my dealer, derfx~xxdovco.com. He is in Baton Rouge, but since the machines (at least the mills) are shipped directly from the factory, the dealer's location doesn't matter. Derf gave a lot of attention to my order and I received it much sooner than I expected, with no snags or foulups. I hope this has helped you decide. Troy ------- Date: Fri, 17 May 2002 19:22:53 EDT From: tadici283x~xxcs.com Subject: Re: Thinking of buying a taig lathe, who to buy from? As an owner of the Taig Lathe, Mill and 7x10 machine I can state that the Taig has a quality difference the China made lathe cannot equal, the China made lathe is a "kit" lathe, meaning it needs a lot of cleaning, modification, adjustment and cannot equal the Taig as far as fit, finish, it differs from the Taig "kit" lathe in the fact that it offers more features, is heavy built (80 LBS) can cut threads out of the box, has power feed and standard MT tooling, to get near this you would have to modify a Taig extensively as another member pointed out, a certain weak spot is the fact that the China made lathe has a troublesome motor. I have had to replace nearly every part from gears to circuit boards. I realize that this has varied from owner to owner. My Taig is powered by a treadmill motor with never a thought after it was installed. To sum up, the machinist will always modify their tools, you need to decide if the larger capability is what you need or great quality out of the box with the Taig; the Taig seems also to offer a greater amount of accessories as well. chris of Bradenton ------- Date: Tue, 28 May 2002 12:48:05 -0700 From: "Dee Schuyler" Subject: Re: Atlas vs Asian [POSTED TO ATLAS GROUP] Well now this is my opinion only, and quite possibly my Atlas a TH54 had seen a lot of hard use? But I bought a 922 Logan on ebay with a lot of tooling for a little over twice what I sold the Atlas for, $700 and it is, again in my opinion, three times the lathe! It has done everything I have asked of it! Without any problems. Now don't get me wrong I have seen a lot of great looking projects made on an Atlas lathe, but you asked for an opinion Dee ------- Date: Tue, 28 May 2002 19:55:06 -0000 From: "paul_probus" Subject: Re: Atlas vs Asian I guess I am in a unique position. My dad owns a 12x36 Craftsman lathe (Atlas). My dad and I have used it and it is a very adequate lathe for hobby use. I would think the 10" Atlas version of the lathe is more rigid, which I have not read any evidence to back this up I am only speculating since it is my understanding the 12" Craftsman version uses the same bed and ways (ie. the bed and ways are not beefed up for the additional 2" swing). Someday (probably sooner than I want, like after I finally get my shop built) I will probably inherit this lathe since my dad has not hooked it up after moving to a new house. With that in mind, I do plan on buying either Jet's 13x40 belt drive lathe or Grizzly's 12x37 belt drive lathe (as you can tell, I prefer belt drives which hopefully will provide some slip when I make a goof up). Are these imports more rigid than an Atlas lathe? I can't answer because I have not seen these particular models, but I have seen HF's 12x36 gear head lathe at their Richmond store and it appeared to be a very rigid lathe, but I have not used one to be sure that they are more rigid than an Atlas lathe. As far as used lathes, Logan, Shelby, South Bend, Hendey, Hardinge and many others are supposed to be very rigid lathes. I can attest to a '20's era Hendey and a '60's or '70's era Hardinge lathe. The 12x5 (that's 5', equivalent to a 12x36" lathe) Hendey my dad owned, until he moved, was very rigid. The lathe bed and ways were probably just downsized in length from a 16" or 18" swing lathe of a much longer length. I remember the ways being very wide in comparison with all the other lathes in that size range that I have seen. The only problem that that lathe had, and it was more my dad's ignorance than a problem with the lathe, was that we must have had the original leather belt. It would slip when taking deep cuts that would have been OK on the Craftsman lathe. My dad could not think of anyone who would sell replacement belts for the lathe (he did not think the ones in McMaster would work, for some reason). The Hardinge HLV-H lathe I had access to at my last employer. It is about the same size as the Craftsman in swing and ways width (11" swing, only 18" between centers, though). It was a very rigid lathe and could easily take heavy cuts (compared to the Craftsman and Hendey). The only problem, other than short between centers length, was that there were no back gears. I do remember slipping the belts once because of no back gears, of course it had old belts and that could have been the cause too. The ultimate decision is yours, though. Either lathe (old USA made or new Asain made) will require some work. The Asain lathes typically only require some cleaning. For a good article on the Asain made lathes, find the last issue of Home Shop Machinist. Steve Chastain talks about his Enco 12x36 Gear head lathe. Paul ------- Date: Tue, 28 May 2002 22:40:45 -0000 From: "latheplaya" Subject: Re: Atlas vs Asian I have a HF 7X10 Minilathe. For what I paid >$330, delivered, it was a good value. But, for precision work, it's a little lacking. I made a good "attachment" for my Ruger Mark II with it. The Homier 7X12s are going for $299, I think. If you want small and precise, TAIG is the way to go. I just bought an Atlas 10-F that needs restoring. Patience is the name of the game. I've seen nice Atlas lathes go on ebay for >$1000. A newer Atlas/Clausing 12X36, I think, recently went for $3500+, though. Ebay is perfect for finding things (like lathes) that you would only see once in a lifetime otherwise. But, don't fall into the bidding trap. Decide what it's worth to you, and bid that amount as close as you can to the auction end. You can also find the mid size 9X20 Asian lathes at HF for $700 or so. They often offer free shipping and the 9X20s come with steady rest, follower rest, QC gearbox, etc. But, most of all, talk to someone who has owned whatever you are looking at and get an informed opinion. Cheers, Derf ------- Date: Tue, 28 May 2002 15:39:52 -0700 From: Rick Kruger Subject: Re: Atlas vs Asian As with so many things, it depends. I think a lot depends on the condition of the lathe and its features/tooling. There are primo lathes of any type and there are clunkers. A new asian is less likely to be a clunker due to use, more so due to design or manufacture, by comparison, IMHO. I have all three, a 10F x 36 Atlas, a South Bend 9 Model x36 (both 54" beds), and a Grizzly minilathe 7x12. Even tho the minlathe is the newest, the SB is by far the best machine of the lot, largely due to its condition and tooling (Model A = QC gear box, list of tooling worthy of gloat). The Atlas is just so-so, being older, more worn, looser, noisier and lesser in features (change gear, small dials, leadscrew drives power feed as well as threading). The only thing the Atlas has over the SB is a milling attachment, but since I have a milling machine, that is moot. From my biased perspective, I'd say SB is a better machine. If I had a clunker SB and a primo Atlas, it'd probably be different. (I do have to say, tho, irrespective of their relative conditions, I do like the feel and operation of the SB over the Atlas.) As for the Grizzly, it was my first and only lathe for a year, then came the Atlas, which never really got used except when work wouldn't fit the 7x12, then 5 months ago came the first of two SBs. I put a lot of work into improving the Grizzly due to its design, construction and manufature, to where its a decent machine now. However, I hardly touch the Grizzly anymore, except for second operations where I don't want to disturb what's in the SB. But, I wouldn't give it up, whereas, I am trying to sell the Atlas. (That may not be a fair comparison, tho, as the Atlas is duplicative of the SB in size/capacity; the Grizzly is a different sized machine.) All that said, I have done as precise of work on the Atlas as I have on the SB and given more attention, its operation could be significantly improved, but it will never be as good as *this* SB. So, its back to it depends. A lot depends on your needs/uses for a lathe and your budget. I think it's more on the order of *$3,000* that most of us don't have in our home shop budgets to spend on a single machine (not $30,000 - I don't even have that to spend on a car). That substantially restricts our choices and increases the need to be smart and selective, and work your way up to where you want to be, whatever brand of machine. That was long winded, hope it is helpful. Rick K. Portland, OR ------- Date: Tue, 28 May 2002 16:35:26 -0700 From: Jay & Anne Greer Subject: Re: Atlas vs Asian Well, I guess it's kind of asking if a fellow would marry the same girl again after years of togetherness! I got my first Atlas over thirty years ago and learned to appreciate it for it's simplicity. I like it so well that I just bought another and now I have two. I am a conservator and a clock and watch maker. The 6inch Atlas lathes I have suit my needs very well and can produce work within .001-.0025" I also have a German Boley lathe for very fine work. I hear that some of the lathes made overseas need a lot of fussing and tinkering to get them right. If you don't mind tinkering with an old lathe at a reasonable price I'd say go for the Atlas unless you are going commercial. Then I'd go for a good domestic product. Best regards Jay Greer/AIC ------- Date: Tue, 28 May 2002 19:36:14 -0400 From: Art Eckstein Subject: Re: Atlas vs Asian Woof, Woof! Most definitely I would spend the money that I did for my 1974 12" Atlas, QC, 4 jaw, face plate, and a bunch of tools and "stuff". Based on the the things I do with the lathe, and the accuracy that I get, it was well worth it. I have heard to many stories about the imports with their quality control. You almost don't know what to believe. Yes, I bought a Rong Fu mill/drill and I lucked out. BUT again I have seen to many horror stories about the units that had to be torn down and re-assembled in order to be functional units. The BIGGEST improvement made to my unit was the block style (homemade) tool post that the PO made for the lathe. There are times I have to switch back the lantern style post for certain tools and I HATE that as there is always tool chatter and lousy finishes. Like you, I did not have $30,000 to spend and this lathe is more than adequate for my needs. As a side note, this lathe, replaces my 1929 Southbend Junior 9" that I bought at "scrap metal" prices. ------- Date: Tue, 28 May 2002 19:54:35 -0500 From: "Koepke, Kevin" Subject: RE: Atlas vs Asian After working with a 15" Clausing/Colchester lathe and a Bridgeport series 'I' mill, in a small mockup and model shop for 15 years, I know what good machines and tooling are all about. But I didn't have the money or the room for these at home. I purchased a TH42 Atlas and all the items needed to rebuild it from e-bay, and members of this fine group. All together, I spent about $1800.00, and that includes both 3 & 4 jaw chucks, a 3AT collet adaptor w/collets, a tailstock chuck, Jacob's headstock chuck, tool room taper attachment, milling attachment, steady & follow rests, and a quick change. This was not my first Atlas. I rebuilt a 618 in the mid 80's, and a V42, which I rebuilt and gave to my Dad after I had purchased the TH42 (OK, I thought the QC should go on a Timken bearing head). So, I was aware of the type of quality I could expect from an Atlas. Rebuilding the lathes gave me a sense for what I could do with them, and how to repair and maintain them, and also saved me a bunch of money. Like others have stated, these are not production machines, but it's all I need for the home shop, and occupies a corner of my meager 22 square foot shop (a garage is where you park cars, alright?), along with a 4 x 6 bandsaw, and homemade sheetmetal brake (the rest is stink'n woodworking tools). This lathe is capable of producing anything that is fit for its size, with patience being the only thing required, from its production brethren. I think it's time for that Rockwell Mill... let's see... it could go in my... kitchen??? Kevin 'Kitchens, where all good lathes are rebuilt' "Honey, where's the toaster?" ------- Date: Wed, 29 May 2002 02:01:18 -0000 From: "grandparont" Subject: Re: Atlas vs Asian "The test of the machine is the satisfaction it gives you. There isn't any other test. If the machine produces tranquillity, it's right. If it disturbs you it's wrong until either the machine or your mind is changed. The test of the machine is always your own mind. There isn't any other test." Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance ------- Date: Wed, 29 May 2002 05:17:10 +0000 From: Jon Elson Subject: Re: Atlas vs Asian I might try to find a slightly better machine than the Atlas (SB, Logan, etc.) These CAN be had, if you will accept a bit of wear, or rough appearance, and have patience. I would not go with the new Asian imports, unless I already had a relationship with the importer, and knew that parts would be available when I might need them. I had a 10" change-gear Atlas some years ago, and ran the carriage into the tailstock under power feed. The reversing gearbox and change gear bracket were smashed to bits. This was some 50 years after the lathe was made! I could have bought the parts from Clausing, but they were expensive. I could have bought the parts from a used source, but they were still somewhat expensive. What I did, instead, was to upgrade the lathe to a QC for just a hundred dollars or so more than the exact replacement parts. One of the best mistakes I've ever made, as it turned out. It was an expensive lesson, but not a disaster, and I got a better machine out of it. Now, on that asian import, let's see you get parts even TEN years later! I've heard sob stories about import lathes that didn't run well when delivered, and after some weeks when the owner had properly diagnosed the problem and went back to the importer, they waited months and then were told that the needed parts were no longer available! I don't know if these storiesare literally true, but I have read what appeared to be first-person reports of this at least twice on R.C.M. Jon ------- Date: Wed, 29 May 2002 02:11:14 EDT From: tadici283x~xxcs.com Subject: Re: Re: Atlas vs Asian I have used the Smithy and I own the Shoptask for aprox 6 years, they are good machines and will most likely do what you need of them, I find the Shoptask to be a bit beefier and it is quite heavy-about 700 lb. mostly seems in the Lathe portion. I own an atlas 10f 54 and I like it a lot, my opinion of it though is that it is a bit flexible, the carriage is not as heavy as I feel it should be, the slide too thin on the toolpost end and has a lot of unnecessary vibration, and is a "light" gage lathe. One must state that despite all this it is 50! Years old so that is a tribute to its long lasting ability. These lathes were loved in the auto repair business especially when refinishing arbors for starters and alternators; they found their way into many hobby venues as well. If considering an asian lathe consider the shoptask since it is cnc certified and graded as light industrial lathe. Mine can swing 16" and has a rather large table. All castings are quite solid and feature dual inverted "v" ways. Setting them up for cnc is very simple. This machine offers another advantage in that you can run the mill and use the powerfeed to the table. It is not a logan or other high dollar two ton machine made in the us but a meet me half-way lathe that is well made but still needs some adjusting. This is strictly my own opinion and I do not deal with selling any machine. Chris of Bradenton FLA. ------- Date: Wed, 29 May 2002 16:20:37 -0000 From: "paul_probus" Subject: Re: Atlas vs Asian Jon: It seems from your opinion that the only machines worth owning are those that replacement parts can still be had. Well, that would narrow the list of used lathes down considerably. I'm not familiar with all the manufacturer's of machines over the years, but it seems you are limiting the choices to SB, Logan, Atlas/Clausing, Hardinge, Myford (which is not in this class of 12" lathes) and a handful of others. Many of the other good names, new parts cannot be had for, such as Sheldon, Delta, Hendey, many others. There are a lot of people out there who are making their own repair parts for these orphaned lathes, therefore there are some people who see merit in these orphaned lathes. Now, repair parts for Atlas, Logan, SB, etc. Are the accessories included, such as fixed and steady rests and other accessories originally offered by these manufacturers at the time the lathe was made? While I would think SB probably still makes them (their new 10" manual lathe looks identical in the pictures to their '50's vintage units), I'd be surprised if Clausing and Logan still offer them for their older lathes. I'm not saying you're wrong about the imports, one of the first letters to the editor I read in HSM was about someone who could not find replacement parts for his Griz. lathe despite Griz. still using the same model #. I would recommend anyone who buys a new asian import (actually any new lathe, including Sherline, Taig, etc.) to buy as many accessories for that lathe the manufacturer offers within the first year of ownership to keep from losing getting orphaned on the accessories that are specific to that lathe, repair parts would still be orphaned. However, like the old USA made lathes, if you need repair parts and they are not available, you are going to have to either make the parts, try to repair them as best as possible or cast off the lathe and get another one. As far as fixing up the imports, yes you do occasionally find casting sand where it should not be and an occassional broken part (mostly damaged in shipping), but most of the imported lathes need little more than a complete teardown for cleaning and aligning and they are ready to work. The 7x12's are especially highly regarded. Used American lathes, and there are lathes with little wear, just rebuilt, etc. to be had, but most of them will require a similar tear down for cleaning, at best, a complete rebuild at worst. Granted a $150 '30's 12" Craftsman that is worn out and no accessories is better than a $3000 new asian import that you are $2850 short of ever being able to buy (ie. any lathe is better than no lathe). In the used USA vs. Asian machines debate goes, both sides are right and both are wrong. It depends on what you want to use the lathe for and how much time you want to put into making it do what you want to do. There is nothing wrong with fixing up an old USA lathe, but then there is nothing wrong with buying an imported lathe. Paul ------- Date: Thu, 30 May 2002 18:48:38 +0100 From: Tony Jeffree Subject: Re: Re: First lathe: Taig or Asian 7x12 30/05/2002, you wrote: >The TAIG on the other hand has very simple well thought >out statements on the set up of the machine. >this would point me to the TAIG as a better firts time machine. >and if/when you step up to a bigger lathe you will most likely still >turn to the smaller one for smaller projects! That is my personal experience. I now have a Myford as well as my Taig, but the majority of my work is still done on the Taig. Regards, Tony ------- Date: Thu, 30 May 2002 18:42:16 -0700 From: Dave Martindale Subject: Taig vs. 7x12 Another thing worth considering is that the Taig seems to be more forgiving of being overloaded. The Asian 7x10/7x12 lathes have an electronic speed control (which is really nice to have) running a DC motor which then drives the headstock via a belt and plastic gears. (I don't know the precise arrangement; I don't actually have one). If you get metal swarf into the controller electronics, you can get large sparks and a non-working controller. Or if you overload the lathe, something may break - either electronic or mechanical. If you read the Yahoogroups 7x10 archives, you'll find many examples of people with blown MOSFETS, blown fuses, controllers that don't work, broken gears in the headstock, and so on. In comparison, the Taig just doesn't have much to break. Overload it and the belt is likely to slip. If you manage to keep the belt from slipping, you might be able to stall the motor, but this won't cause any damage to an induction motor (provided it doesn't stay stalled). If you use a DC motor and variable-speed drive on a Taig, it becomes vulnerable to some of the same issues as the Asian lathes - but there still aren't any plastic gears to break. You should also be aware of the difference in "horsepower" ratings of motors. The Taig is usually powered by a 1/4-1/3 HP induction motor, and these motors are rated to produce that power continuously. The DC motors used in the Asian lathes are rated something like 1/2 HP, but that's peak output that they wouldn't be able to sustain for more than a few seconds. The continuous rating is probably 1/16 to 1/10 HP. None of this means that an Asian lathe is "bad", but it's certainly different from the Taig. Knowing what the differences are can help you decide which is for you. By the way, you should also be looking at a Sherline lathe. It's similar to the Taig in that it should be ready to use out of the box, but it comes with a DC motor and speed control (better quality than the Asian lathes). It also has a leadscrew and conventional tailstock with a ram, like the Asian lathes, and there is a thread cutting accessory. Plus there are many Sherline accessories that have no Taig counterpart. But the lathe and all the accessories are more expensive than the Taig. Dave (Who's also trying to decide which one to buy) ------- Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2002 00:21:48 -0000 From: "jeastwoodlm" Subject: Larger lathe via "accessory" I've been meaning to post a short description of my solution to "love the Sherline, but wish I had something a little larger" problem. What I did was buy a $350 accessory that extends my available swing to allow turning diameters up to 7". No, it's not riser blocks. What I did was buy a 7x10 mini-lathe. I consider it an accessory rather than a replacement for the Sherline for several reasons: 1) The Sherline is my principal lathe; I go to the 7x10 only when I need somthing larger machined, or if I have something chucked up on the Sherline and for some reason need to do some turning on another part. (For instance, my wife needs something done while I'm in the middle of a part for my latest steam engine.) 2) The 7x10 uses MT3 and MT2 tapers for head and tail stock; I have no intention to get a complete set of tooling/accesories to fit these. However, I've found a cheap MT2 to MT1 adaptor available from MSC, Travers, et. al. Quite useful. 3) The length of the 7x10 is quite a bit less than my 4400. There is a wealth of info on the 7x10 in various forums such as this one (type "7x10" into the Yahoo groups search field), and lots of web pages. I depended on these resources to make my decision on whether to risk even $350 on a cheap import. The conclusion I came to is that you get a useable lathe, but one that may need a bit of tweaking to get the best performance it's capable of out of it. Lots of people have bought these and done lots of useful work, and I find that's true for me too so far (I've had it almost a year now.) So: I'm still a loyal Sherline-ite to the core. Calling the 7x10 an accessory assuages any feelings of guilt :-) but is also in fact the way I use it. ------- Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 20:57:16 -0400 From: "John Guenther" Subject: RE: Larger lathe via "accessory" I made an adapter for my Grizzly 7x12 to allow the use of my Sherline accessories, including 3 and 4 jaw chucks, drill chucks, end mill holders, face plates and all the #1 MT tooling I have for the Sherline. What I did was turn up a piece of 12L14 steel on the 7x12 to fit the spindle just like the supplied 3 jaw chuck one does. I then mounted it on the 7x12 spindle and turned the front down to the same size as the Sherline spindle nose. I purchased a #1 MT reamer and reamed the internal taper. I made sure the 2.165 diameter recess on the back of the adapter was a close (snug) fit on the 7x12 spindle to ensure proper alignment upon removal and reinstallation. I will post a picture in the Photos section and could make a drawing available if necessary. I agree that the 7x12 is not a replacement for the Sherline, but given that there are NO affordable new American made lathes available in the small sizes for home shops, these ain't too bad. They do require some work to make them better, but they are useable out of the box after you clean them up and adjust them. Before everybody gets on Sherline's case about a larger lathe, I don't think they can manufacture one in the United States to the current standards that would be affordable to most home shop users. I work on my 7x12 as if I were working on my Sherline, and to that end I get good results by working within the capabilities of the machine, just as I do on my Sherline equipment. John Guenther Sterling, Virginia List Owner. ------- Date: Fri, 09 Aug 2002 22:59:02 -0400 From: Stan Stocker Subject: Re: Atlas vs. Southbend [atlas_craftsman] reddogracingf500 wrote: > Between a Southbend and Atlas, which, assuming similar wear in used > condition, will be able to produce the most accurate parts? What > would the approximate gap in precision be? Any replies appreciated Assuming you are comparing a SB 13 with an Atlas 12, or an Atlas 10 with an SB9, here's my take on them. For what it's worth, I have a Taig, an SB Workshop C 9" x 3 1/2 ft, an SB 13" X 7 ft, and an Atlas/Craftsman 12" with a 54 inch bed. The South Bend is a bit stiffer, and in the long run is a better machine. The down side is that finding a 12 or 13 inch swing SB in good shape with a ball bearing spindle will be tough, and it will cost a lot more. I have an Atlas 12 I'm restoring, they are kind of neat, but the bed is lighter and more flexible and the gears for the most part are Zamac rather than steel. Fine feed on the Atlas is via the half nuts rather than via a worm driven by the leadscrew keyway. This bothers some people, but the same method is used on the SB Workshop C, so I'm not put off by it, although it isn't my first choice in how to do it! The ball bearing spindle is nice to have, the solid bearing SB lathes are limited to around 700 to 1000 RPM as a top speed, a bit slow for carbide on smaller work pieces. A big plus for Atlas is that Clausing has many parts available, and the parts (and lathes) are far more affordable than parts from LeBlond (who now has the SB spares business) or on the used market. Either lathe can do perfectly good work, hell, I did work to tight tolerances when I had to (better than 2 tenths, but it was darn hard as the machine sucked) on a Chinese 9X20 until I got my SB9. When the oportunity came along to grab an Atlas 12 inch swing lathe with a top speed of 2700 RPM complete with all the gears, I jumped on it! The fact that it wasn't a South Bend didn't phase me at all. Assuming a lathe of reasonable quality, correctly setup and in proper working order, the end results depend a heck of a lot more on the person in front of it than the name on the makers plate. If it's a precision lathe your are chasing, you'll have to jump up to SB toolroom model A series lathes (rare and big bucks if clean), or start looking for clean lathes from Hardinge, Clausing Colchester, or Rivitt. By precision lathes, I'm talking the kinds of lathes that hold to a tenth or better day in and day out in the hands of a person who can work to tenths. Naturally, you're talking lathes that weigh thousands of pounds, and cost serious money. If it's holding to a thou or two day in and day out, either Atlas or SB can deliver that with no problem at all. Happy shopping, Stan ------- Date: Fri, 9 Aug 2002 22:34:40 -0500 From: "jerdal" Subject: Re: Atlas vs. Southbend > Between a Southbend and Atlas, which, assuming similar wear in used > condition, will be able to produce the most accurate parts? What > would the approximate gap in precision be? Any replies appreciated. I would say that the SB is CAPABLE of a better finish and possibly better precision due to not having roller bearings. Not to say that you will get it in reality, that is due to your skill. There are other inputs to the equation, such as wear, settability, adjustments, etc. A badly set up SB is not as good as a well wet up Atlas. The plain bearing is in the ultimate analysis better than the class of roller bearing employed in the Atlas machines. Better class bearings are capable of very good finishes and precision, as per Monarch etc. Many of the smaller very precise machines have always used plain bearings, however. Virtually all watchmakers lathes were plain bearing, also. Jerry ------- Date: Fri, 09 Aug 2002 23:54:08 -0500 From: Jon Elson Subject: Re: Atlas vs. Southbend Umm, not a great deal of difference, assuming the SB is one of the lighter models. The biggest difference is the design of the ways. The Atlas uses flat ways, and the edges of the ways are used to constrain the carriage to travel in a straight line. If there is looseness in the fit, a 5-6" micrometer or even a good dial caliper can measure the wear in the front-back edges, and a regular 1" mike can measure the vertical wear of the ways. On a SB, this is a lot harder to measure, as the inverted-Vee ways can't be measured in any simple way. The SB ways tend to retain their accuracy over a longer time, as the carriage will always follow the Vee way, whereas an Atlas will develop free play between the front and back edges. But, the Atlas is a LOT easier to measure for wear (thereby preventing you from buying a badly worn bed) and it is also much easier to regrind or hand scrape with simple tools. I have done extremely fine turning and toolpost grinding on things that needed such precision with an Atlas/Craftsman 12" lathe that was in fine condition. I think that the late 12" Atlas/Craftsman was a pretty good lathe. The 10" and early 12" with the 3/8" bed ways was noticably lighter in a number of areas, and I much prefer the late 12" machine. The compound slide was probably the weakest link of the 10" machine, it was just too flexible. A good set of roller bearings, properly installed and preloaded, can run VERY smooth. I have a late-model 12" Craftsman lathe in fine condition. I have done some grinding using a toolpost grinder, which will show up any imperfection in the lathe. I can clearly see a little pattern in the finish from the keyway in the leadscrew causing the carriage to wobble just a tiny bit as the grinder makes a fine pass down the part. But, I can't find any hint of pattern from the spindle bearings. When making fine finish turning with a sharp tool and fine feed, I might expect some pattern to show up, but I think your bearings have to be pretty rough before that becomes an issue. > The plain bearing is in the ultimate analysis better than the class > of roller bearing employed in the Atlas machines. Better class bearings > are capable of very good finishes and precision, as per Monarch etc. > Many of the smaller very precise machines have always used plain > bearings. Virtually all watchmakers lathes were plain bearing. I can well believe that a journal bearing can absorb impacts and vibrational energy better than a roller bearing, and that damping may be why people talk about this. One of the risks with journal bearings is that they are easily damaged. It doesn't take long running without oil to sieze up one of these bearings, while the roller bearings can run nearly dry all day. Anyway, it is a lot easier to replace the roller bearings than to repour and scrape in a Babbit bearing! Jon ------- Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2002 17:30:11 -0700 From: Wm. Dubin Subject: Re: Lapsed machinist... Jon: One of the reasons you don't see many complaints re: Sherline, is because the tools are nearly (not totally) but nearly perfect IF you accept their size restrictions. I've used a long bed lathe and the 2000 mill, both with DRO for close to 4 years, and thats with nearly daily useage. In that time, my only complaint was that the tools wern't bigger. Even then, I've found I could push the mill FAR past its apparent size restrictions. My biggest single problem has been with needing a Y-axis lock on the mill. Discussing this with Craig, he pointed out a sketch in the machinists hints area, even went so far as to build the lock himself to be sure it would work. Problem solved. You will be FAR happier with 2 seperate machines if you can afford both, and the great advantage of Sherline over most other's, is the huge range of tooling, which is interchangable for both. As to Sherline (the Co.), and the people behind it, i can only recommend you try the Prazi importer to get an idea how good Sherline really is. For a better lathe in the Sherline size, you might check the Lorch, or one of the other 40K priced machines. Sure, they are way better, I've seen pictures of one using a television to blow-up whats being worked on (a contact lense)..... but this gets absurd. Your next step, in size, would be Myford. hope this helps. Wm. ------- Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2002 02:29:53 +0000 From: SmittysSpeedWorksx~xxattbi.com Subject: RE: Lapsed machinist... Here is my 2 pennies worth... I also would like a larger through bore on the lathe, but cost is always a factor. Drawbacks to the Sherline, for it's size and price, I really cannot mention any concerns that I have encountered. Most of my work is done with 6AL-V4 Titanium, and both my Lathe and mill handle it with great results. I have, at times, taken up to .020 on the lathe with a good carbide bit. I would like to see a "Y" axis positive stop, thinking about my own idea for this, but for the most part, I have no regrets at all. I started out with a Lathe with the Mill conversion, was great for awhile, but really needed the mill. If you have plans for Milling work, GET THE MILL, it will save you time in setup, and money if you consider your time. One last thing, I sent in one of my DRO boxes, cause it would stop reading when using the "X" ot "Y" axis, and in order to get it to read again, I had to move both axis at the same time, no good. They (LOUIS) could not duplicate the problem, so they sent me a new unit. Now that is what I call OUTSTANDING service. Smitty ------- Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2002 11:57:06 -0000 From: "shindin" Subject: Re: Lapsed machinist... Only thing that has ever been any problem (given the size of the machine, and its intended use, which we have probably all pushed them past there, and still gotten good results. I know i certainly have) has been back-lash adjustment, which was operator error in my opinion, at least in my case anyway. This was early on. It is not a real major problem once you really "learn" the machine, and how to adjust it properly. On a note, as for customer service, i ordered most of my accy's directly from sherline. On one occasion, i needed the rotary mill vise base for a job with a deadline, and ordered it "2nd day air". When friday (the expected delivery date) rolled around and it didn't show up, i called sherline and asked about it. Even wound up talking to the same lady i had ordered from, sorry i can't remember her name, but she remembered me mentioning i had to have it by the weekend, and she apologized, and actually admitted having made the error by sending it standard ground! When's the last time you've seen that kind of integrity in that situation? Anyway, she sent me out another base, overnite, no extra charge, and i rcv'd it at about 10 am saturday morning. Our conversation was friday afternoon. Bear in mind, sherline is in ca, i am in ga, on the opposite coast. And yes, i did ship the first one back per our verbal agreement. Took me 2 weeks, and they never called me or bothered me about when i was going to get it sent back. I have bigger stuff now, but i still keep my sherline for the really small jobs that require super accuracy. No, it wasn't cheap, but it is certainly worth every penny it costs. Not to mention, it's really a "fun" machine to work with. Just a personal experience. Lennys/shindin ------- Date: Sun, 06 Oct 2002 01:56:13 -0000 From: "n2562001" Subject: Re: Opinions on a Levin Lathe Please [sherline] > From somebody with some real world experience, I would like to know an > opinion on this lathe. What is its fair market value, and what are > the pitfalls in buying such a machine besides the price of the > accessories. Even without real world Levin > use experience, I welcome your opinions (just not as much, ;-) ) > Thanks, Daniel J. Statman, Statman Designs www.statmandesigns.com Dan, Levin Lathe`s are very high qaulity and very accurate but are not very versitile or practical as a hobby lathe. They are at their best when setup to do one or two precise operation`s. Setup is similar to a jeweler`s lathe and is time consuming. If you are a meticulous machinist they are terrific for those occasional very small special projects. Value will depend on how bad you need or want one. The one or two used ones that I have seen for sale have been at about 25 percent of retail. What would you use the lathe for? Jerry Kieffer ------- Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2002 07:35:17 -0700 From: "Marcus & Eva" Subject: Re: Opinions on a Levin Lathe Please Hi Dan: Looks real cute, and all, but I don't think I'd spend a lot for it. If you want to do any amount of production, it's a poor choice. If it's an ornament and a toy for your shop, that's different. If you want a "real" producer for the kinds of stuff you've been doing but don't want to move into CNC turning, look at something like a Hardinge chucker. Has just as much "OOOHH" value, and has enough ponies to actually take a cut. Cheers Marcus ------- Date: Sun, 06 Oct 2002 15:06:23 -0000 From: "motoproto" Subject: Re: Opinions on a Levin Lathe Please Dan, just some anecdotal information FWIW. I attended an auction last spring where six or eight of these machines were sold in the $1800 to $2200 price range (each). The machines were in a swiss screw machine shop, and each was fitted with a 6 position tailstock turret, collet closer, and lever action slides. They appeared to be very high quality, and I'm sure they were quite productive when properly set up. Patrick ------- Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2002 12:04:05 EDT From: Area51tatsx~xxaol.com Subject: Re: Opinions on a Levin Lathe Please I disagree with Marcus about the reasons for not getting this lathe. Levin makes probably one of the best precision production lathes in the world right now. It is not intended to have "OOOHH" value and the type of work that is done doesn't need large amounts of HP. It is much more like a Schaublin then a South Bend. Both are considered to be the cat's meow but in different fields of machining. I have seen what Dan is making and I think this lathe would be a very excellent piece of equipment for his uses. Now if He just wants to do a bunch of blanking then maybe a chucker would be the ticket. Just my nickle's worth. Gerald Iowa ------- Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2002 10:56:22 -0700 From: Wm. Dubin Subject: Re: Re: Opinions on a Levin Lathe Please Dan, there are several other types of speciality lathes that might suit you better. Both are "antiques", but no reason they couldn't function for you. I've seen both on e-bay, and have a link to the seller (a large Co.). 1) a Rose lathe (with several variations on that theme) 2) a lathe that operates on the horizontal, and engraves designs onto the bodies of (old) fountain pens. Either should be easily adaptable for your purposes, and neither appeared to cost anywhere near a Levin. Wm. ------- Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2002 12:09:37 -0700 From: "Yasmiin" Subject: RE: Re: Opinions on a Levin Lathe Please I have a couple of these lathes. A Levin and a Derbyshire-- the other maker in the US still making these types of machines. They are great for their intended purposes. Keep in mind that most machines that are sold on eBay require a lot more stuff to be really useful and that stuff is very expensive. The machine that you are looking at is well priced but it will take another $1500 at bargain basement prices to tool it. Search on Levin in Metal Working and see all the other tooling for this machine that Reliable is selling separately. Regards, Yasmiin ------- Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2002 21:36:19 -0400 From: "Dan Statman" Subject: New Machine Question (was Opinions on Levin Lathe Please) Thank you for all of the Levin lathe replies, I will consider all of your suggestions and comments. I have another general machine question. I need a recommendation for a machine to do the following task. I usually have a 1" diameter solid bar of titanium that I need to pre-drill to about 0.700". I have been travelling to a friend's shop to do this work using several incremental drilling steps, but it is becoming a pain to travel and I would like something in my studio which can handle this. This is the only operation that I require of this machine, except it would also be nice to be able to bore the diameter with a boring bar so that I can fine tune and true the roughing hole. I am not looking for ultimate precision. My short list of requirements is a greater than 1.25" spindle through hole (would settle for slightly larger than 1" if I need to). Enough power to turn a 0.625" drill in titanium with a 1/2" pilot hole. Some sort of auto feed mechanism for a boring bar. 115V single phase power. Bed length can be as small as 12-15". Weight low enough that it is not a huge burden to move around. Does this machine exist? If so where? Thanks again for your input. Daniel J. Statman, Statman Designs www.statmandesigns.com ------- Date: Mon, 07 Oct 2002 08:15:38 -0000 From: "timgoldstein" Subject: Re: New Machine Question (was Opinions on Levin Lathe Please) Dan, what you really need is a chucker lathe for this, but you will not be able to move it easily. Your volume seems to be high enough that you could get this done very cheaply by a shop as a production job. Have a few hundred run at a time and you will be amazed how cheap it can be. Lots better than investing your own capital in a very specialized machine that will sit there doing nothing most of the time. I had a similar situation with some laser cut parts. Found a shop that would do them for $30/hr laser time plus materials. That rate is less than what I would want for my own time much less the capital cost of the machine and the wear, tear, and operating expense. Made it so buying the machine myself was just plain dumb. Tim [Denver, CO] ------- Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2002 08:15:39 -0700 From: "Yasmiin" Subject: RE: Opinions on a Levin Lathe Please Another lathe of this type that has every good a quality but which sells on the used market cheap is a Wade. I have but up a nearly competently tooled Wade for less than a $ 1000. If you keep your eye on Ebay you will see the various items come up. You can usually get the lathe for less than $ 500. Its capacity exceeds that of the Levin. It's still in production and US made. New it costs big time. http://www.wademachine.com/introo.htm Yasmiin ------- Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 22:40:42 -0500 From: "Carol & Jerry Jankura" Subject: RE: Re: Sherline vs Taig |I wonder how many people you'll find who've used both? Anyway, for |what it's worth: I've been quite happy with my Sherline model 5400 |mill. Quality and accuracy are high (it runs great out of the box). |My only complaint is running out of work envelope; you deal with this |by more thought up front about work holding and planning order of |operations. Ultimately I "cured" this complaint by getting a Prazi |mill about 30% larger than the Sherline. When I was choosing a machine, I looked at the Taig and decided against it. My reasons were: Although I bought a mill first, I had (in the back of my mind) the idea that the lathe function of the Unimat SL-1000 machines I owned would not suffice, so I wanted compatability between the lathe and the mill. Similarities between the two: 1. Both Sherline and Taig produce mills and lathes. 2. Both use compatible parts in their respective machines. 3. Both machines use a 3/4-16 thread on the headstock. 4. Both are small and light weight compared to the larger machines 5. Both are capable, within their work envelope, of turning out first-class work. 6. Both can be adapted to CNC if you wish. Taig offers a CNC version of their mill, while Sherline offers 'CNC ready' version of their products (Just add motors, drivers, and software). Sherline also offers a coupling kit for retrofitting CNC to one of their products that's already in the field. 7. Both have competent and friendly mailing lists on Yahoo. Differences between the two manufacturers: 1. Sherline's headstock bore will clear a 3/8 shank milling cutter; Taig's will not 2. Sherline's lathe uses a leadscrew for the 'Z' direction; Taig's uses a rack and pinion. This means that, out of the box, you can purchase a threading attachment from Sherline; there's no comparable accessory for the Taig. The 'ideal' 'Z' travel would be a leadscrew with some form of split saddle nut that allows you to release the cross slide saddle for quick movement. Neither Vendor offers this capability. 3. Sherline uses a DC variable speed headstock spindle motor; Taig uses an induction motor with stepped pulleys. Several Taig owners have adapted either a treadmill motor or Sherline's motor to their headstocks. 4. The Spindle tapers for Sherline and Taig are different, so accessories that fit INSIDE of the headstock bore are not compatible. 5. The Dovetails on the ways are different. Sherline's is about 55.5 degrees (a nonstandard); I believe that Taig's is closer to 45 degrees. This means that accessories that clamp to the ways are not directly interchangeable between the two. 6. Sherline offers a wider range of accessories than Taig. I believe that this point is important when you're working with machines whose physical size eliminates using a lot of the lower cost Asian import accessories such as collets, etc. 7. The Sherline lathe can be used as a vertical mill by purchasing a column, so the machine can be changed over from a lathe to a mill, much as the old Unimat. Taig does not offer a vertical milling column for their lathe. This may be important if money is limited and you wish to have both a milling and turning capability. 8. You can upgrade any of Sherline's older products to become their current product. I'm not sure of the ability to do this with Taig equipment. I hope this helps. Which ever machine/manufacturer you finally decide on, it appears to me that you'll be getting a decent machine that, if you take the time to learn all of its idiosyncrasies, will produce good parts for you. Jerry ------- NOTE TO FILE: Taig has a milling accessory to mount on the cross slide. It is arguably harder to use, and of less capacity, than the Sherline lathe accessory. But it might serve for small projects. ------- Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2002 09:52:24 EST From: tmwade4x~xxaol.com Subject: Buying advice Never buy a machine big enough to do all of your "occasional" jobs. My uncle's partner used to have a lathe with an 18" swing and a 12' bed. Yep, that's twelve FEET, not inches. It was at least 30 years old, surplus, and never been run. I have a Unimat SL, and have ordered a Sherline mill a couple of weeks ago. Hopefully, it will arrive soon. In doing my shopping, I discovered that my local "welding shop" which actually has a pretty good size machine shop, has at least five lathes for sale. At least one was available for under $500. Only trouble is that I don't quite have enough room in my spare bedroom for it, and my garage is not heated. But I also discovered that if you've got a smaller lathe, and once in a while you need to do a smaller lathe, many of the guys with the bigger lathes are happy to just let you use their lathe. I think I'd rather do most of my work on a good quality small lathe, than to do all of my work on a cheap Chinese lathe. Just my thoughts. Tom Wade ------- Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2002 10:09:24 -0800 From: Wm. Dubin Subject: Re: Re: Buying advice David, the H-F lathe s a total piece of junk... I doubt the Enco is that much better. The Sherline CAN be used as a 6" lathe by putting raiser blocks on it, however you seriously limit the depth of cut it can take, as the motor isn't all that powerful. If you decide to do Sherline, use the LONG bed lathe for this. I am also in San Diego. Write me off line if you have further questions. Wm. ------- Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2002 11:15:57 -0800 From: "David Goodfellow" Subject: RE: Re: Buying advice David: I have a H-F 7x10 lathe, and I disagree with Wm. I had a Taig lathe, and upgraded to the 7-10 so I could do work on a larger scale, and found that you could do just as good work on the 7-10 as you could with the Taig, which IMHO is on a par with Sherline, but slightly larger. My H-F 7x10 needed some cleanup and lubrication before use, but did nice, accurate work. I found that with both the Taig and the H-F, highly accurate work could be achieved through use of good "outside" tools on the final passes instead of the integral indexes. In appearance the Sherline is a Cadillac by comparison to the Asian lathes, but I found a more realistic criteria for me was the size of the work piece I expected to work on. The 7x10 (now mostly upgraded to 7x12) is sold by Harbor Freight, Grizzly, Homier, and a number of other distributers. Basically they are the same machine from one distributer to another, with a different mix of accessories, different paint jobs and different prices. Micro-Mark has come out with a 7x14 (which I now have) with cam-lock tail stock and spindle tach to go with its variable-speed motor. The jury is still out on whether these extra "goodies" justifies their price. As it happens, I like mine a lot. Dave Goodfellow Lancaster, CA ------- Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2002 13:28:16 -0600 From: "Matt" Subject: Re: Re: Buying advice I've got a 9 inch Southbend that would be at it's limits facing 6 inch round stock, I can't even imagine trying it with a Sherline (sorry guys) The Asian lathes that I have looked at should be considered an inexpensive "lathe kit", they don't seem to be a bad deal if your willing to put some time and effort into them, compare a 9 or 11 inch import's price with that of a new Southbend Heavy ten (or even a good used one) and I think you'll see what I mean, that said I would like to get a Sherline lathe to do the small stuff that my SB doesn't have the RPMs for. The ENCO, Grizzly, JET, and HF appear to be the same machines with different paint. See ya Matt Pierce ------- Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2002 12:55:34 -0800 From: Wm. Dubin Subject: Re: Re: Buying advice > I've got a 9 inch Southbend that would be at it's limits facing 6 inch > round stock, I can't even imagine trying it with a Sherline Matt, you are correct... and I wouldn't use my Sherline for anything over 3.5" dia. I looked for a "decent" Southbend, but most of what I found was in pretty sorry condition, and, as I have no need to 'restore' a lathe, I bought the 9" Jet... the cheapie model, but with my eyes open. It's used for face-plate work only (flywheels, etc), or using collets on larger stock for end work. This last required a chuck & the collets of course. Wm. ------- Date: Tue, 03 Dec 2002 09:03:46 +1100 From: "Charlie Lear" Subject: Re: Buying advice On Mon, 2 Dec 2002 09:52:24 EST, tmwade4x~xxaol.com wrote: >I think I'd rather do most of my work on a good quality small lathe, >than to do all of my work on a cheap Chinese lathe. Hear hear. It took two 918 lathes (one Chinese, one much better Taiwanese) to convince me of that. Right now I've got a 9" Hercus and a Sherline 4100 (and a 13" Weiler toolroom lathe in storage in New Zealand). The Sherline still gets used the most. Cheers Charlie Charlie Lear, Melbourne, Australia Hutt Valley Model Engineer Soc. http://steammachine.com/hvmes Eastern Bays Little Blue Penguin Foundation: same site /penguins ------- Date: Mon, 02 Dec 2002 16:08:13 -0800 From: "Orrin B. Iseminger" Subject: RE: Re: Buying advice I've never owned an Asian lathe, but here are a few of the things my friends and I have observed: On my friend's mail-order gap-bed lathe, the piece that filled the gap never fit correctly. When the carriage rode up over the joint, he would get a step-change in turning diameter. I've observed some feed screws to have Imperial dials with what appears to be metric lead screws. Each rotation of the dial advances the feed by 0.127" (IIRC) One can imagine what kind of arithmetic hassle that would be! Furthermore, that last thou on the dial doesn't appear to be exactly a thousandth. This will result in additive errors. One will often find rough castings as well as burrs along the edges of machined surface. Call it poor fit and finish. The electric motors are prone to failure. The centrifugal switch failed on a friend's machine. He got a free replacement, but it's the hassle. Similar problems crop up in equipment other than lathes. Although not directly related, the association carries over. Orrin ------- Date: Tue, 03 Dec 2002 00:35:04 -0000 From: "crankdisk" Subject: Re: Buying advice "Shun advice, at any price, that's what I call, good advice." -- Piet Hien Notwithstanding the above, here's my buying advice. When researching which lathe to buy, a friend who works here in the Navy machine shop classroom pointed out that his father uses a very cheap asian lathe to do small batch, high tech machining for research labs and the Canadian and US military. No kidding. I asked how he set up the machine to do this work and the explanation led me to go and buy a Sherline, because it takes real skill, knowledge, perseverance and good luck to make an asian lathe work well. I took my Sherline out of the box mounted a drill rod and found well under .001 errors (ie smaller than I could really measure). I have the milling column for the occasional bigger job (and all the little milling jobs of course). I will go and see one of my friends or a pro for the occasional big flywheel or other project. I do plan to get the step blocks when my piggy bank is filled again. For an occasional user and one who is looking at CNC down the road, I think you would be smart to look at the many things the Sherline does well, rather than the occasional thing it won't be able to do. No machine does everything. For what its worth! Bill ------- Date: Tue, 03 Dec 2002 11:48:36 +1100 From: "Charlie Lear" Subject: RE: Re: Buying advice On Mon, 2 Dec 2002 16:58:04 -0600, mark.brown2x~xxmed.va.gov wrote: >I spent more time adjusting the bandsaw than cutting with it. I can only >imagine the horrors you would find trying to use a poor quality lathe to >perform anything close to tolerance work. Here's a copy of a note I sent to another model engineer around two years ago. It refers to the Chinese 920 I bought. The Taiwanese 918 which replaced it was far superior in quality, but still required a lot of fettling before I was satisfied with it. Even then the headstock was out of alignment (transit damage) and in the end I sold it on ebay last year and bought a Southbend equivalent. (Funnily enough, given the last sentence below!) Mind you, the secondhand quality tool market isn't a bed of roses either - I detailed my experiences at http://steammachine.com/hercus Cheers Charlie P.S. Stan, just for a laugh I've dug out some old correspondence... 21 December 1996 Dear Sir, You will recall that I recently took delivery of a TP-920 lathe and accessories, after flying to Auckland specifically to view a range of machines in my price range. On installing the lathe, a number of minor design and manufacturing faults became apparent which were not obvious in my brief pre-purchase look at the machine. I was prepared to accept these as a compromise to be expected when buying at a low price point. I certainly did not expect perfection, and while I did not feel "done", overall the lathe did not give me the impression of excellent value that it had prior to closer inspection and use. Since my trip to Auckland, earning a living has effectively kept me out of the workshop except for the short period when I installed the lathe. I am now on leave, and I will spend as much time in the workshop as possible. I have purchased materials and have spent considerable time planning exactly what I will be doing in order to get my steam locomotive back on the track before I go back to work. Obviously the lathe is an integral part of my plans. Tonight was the first time I have been able to go out to the workshop and make some needed parts for the lathe. First up is a drawbar for the milling collet chuck I bought with the lathe. The first operation was to face a slug of 50mm dia mild steel. This was too big to hold in the 3-jaw and due to an intermittent cut I was not willing to use the external jaws. Off came the 3-jaw and I unwrapped and degreased the hitherto unused 4-jaw. The chuck would only screw on a couple of threads onto the mandrel before it became too stiff to turn. I took it off, checked and cleaned both threads again, and tried again. Same problem. Looking while holding the chuck close to the mandrel, I thought the threads didn't match. Tried putting the chuck on one more time, sure enough, one and a half turns on it got tighter and was jammed by two turns. I took it off and got out the rule. The 4-jaw chuck and faceplate are both 1 1/2" Whitworth, 8tpi, as specified in every brochure, advertisement and review I have seen of lathes similar to the TP920 - as it is also specified in the TP920 manual. The mandrel nose of this lathe is 38mm, 3mm pitch. There is absolutely no doubting the measurement. As roughly three quarters of the work I do on a lathe is in a 4-jaw or on a faceplate, the incorrect mandrel thread is a complete show-stopper. "Desperately unhappy" does not adequately describe how I feel at the moment. Time off from work is a luxury and the prospect of wasting my holidays staring at an unusable lathe does not excite me. I see three scenarios here. One, I am just really unlucky. Two, all the last batch of TP920s are like this and I am the first to find out this fault. Three, you already know about the problem and have measures in place to help me. I hope its the third. My phone number is [xxx]. I should be in all morning on Monday, and expect a call by lunchtime to discuss how we can work around this problem. Regards Charlie Lear ***-> Dear Sir, Thank you for your prompt response and resolution of the problem affecting my new TP920 lathe. While I am (understandably, I think) still peeved that the lathe has an incorrect mandrel nose thread, having matching chucks and faceplate renders it nowhere near as serious. I have enclosed the 1 1/2" 8tpi 4-jaw and faceplate, and the toolbox you sent down less the drill chuck (missing from the original kit). In the meantime, I'd gone out and bought a new 1/2" Jacobs and 2MT arbor. Such is life. I hope you and the guys up there have a happy and prosperous 1997. I'll probably drop in next time I'm in Auckland. --- And, of course, I can't find the letter where I finally lost my temper and told them where to stick it, along with a big list of the faults I'd come across. What broke the camels back was I needed to cut a 16tpi thread on an otherwise finished part, set it up, cut it, and it turned out to be 1.5mm pitch. Yup, it had a metric nose thread, a metric screwcutting chart, and an imperial leadscrew. The leadscrew was 60deg threads and not Acme, which made it worse... the halfnuts just refused to stay in, and would either jump out of engagement or else would lock themselves in place so that the lever couldn't be moved... exciting with the saddle racing towards the chuck! So, Stan, here's the question: Why do we persist in doing all this stuff, instead of tossing it in a dumpster and buying a second hand Myford or Southbend? Cheers Charlie Charlie Lear, Melbourne, Australia clearx~xxsteammachine.com Hutt Valley Model Engineer Soc. http://steammachine.com/hvmes Eastern Bays Little Blue Penguin Foundation: same site /penguins ------- Date: Wed, 04 Dec 2002 09:50:55 +1100 From: "Charlie Lear" Subject: RE: Re: Buying advice On Tue, 03 Dec 2002, Todd Fleming wrote: > Eeek! I was thinking of buying a used larger machine someday instead of one of the Chineese machines. It looks like either approach is just as risky. < Simple difference. Underneath the layers of grot on the Hercus/Southbend/Logan/etc there lies a quality machine. Even if badly worn they can be rebuilt to new or better than new quality. As you can see from my web pages, the vast majority of work I did on my Hercus was stripping and cleaning. You can also, as I did, spend literally years fighting with a crappy import machine and at the end of all your fiddling and fixing and spending and tweaking and rebuilding - you've still got a crappy machine. Some of us may appear to be really down on imports - not all imports are created equal, and there are some VERY good Chinese and Taiwanese machines, especially in the 13" and larger sizes. But you pay for quality wherever it comes from, and at the end of the market we're talking about - 7x10 and 9x18 lathes - they are built to a price and it shows in what comes out of the box. The underlying design quality of the 7x10 seems better than the larger machine - it is stiffer and rigidity counts. The first Chinese horror 920 cost me NZD$2000. The replacement Taiwanese 918, although to the same design, had a sticker price of NZD$3200. It was a FAR better machine in almost every way. But I still had issues with it and there was a law of diminishing returns as to the amount of work I was prepared to do to bring it up to scratch. Now having said all that, there are a LARGE number of people out there who buy the $399 special, nail it down to a bench out in the garage, and start turning out bucketloads of good work. They're the ones laughing at me right now. Good on 'em! I'm just not one of them. >Maybe I'll just limit myself to projects that fit on my Sherlines and stop thinking larger. < http://www.steammachine.com/millturn/ Don't think small. 8-) Cheers Charlie Charlie Lear, Melbourne, Australia clearx~xxsteammachine.com Hutt Valley Model Engineer Soc. http://steammachine.com/hvmes Eastern Bays Little Blue Penguin Foundation: same site /penguins ------- Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 13:25:32 -0500 From: Stan Stocker Subject: Re: Atlas or SB? HUNLEY31x~xxaol.com wrote: > All else being equal. Both serves the purpose. Which would you prefer? > Atlas 12" or South Bend 9" Looking for opinions. Should I sell my At