This file provides user information comparing various metal lathes. There are many factors to consider in choosing and purchasing a lathe. In most cases, the right lathe: - is one you can find (classics in good condition may take some searching); - priced correctly (a bargain may not be cheap if it needs a lot of expense); - suitable for the type and size of work you anticipate (caution -- a bigger lathe can do smaller work well, but a small lathe may not be capable of doing larger work and force you to trade up, costing you more than buying the big lathe in the first place); - size and weight are safely accommodated in your work area; - noise will not get you evicted. If possible, speak to or correspond with private individuals who are now using the lathes on your short list BEFORE buying one. Prepare your list of questions ahead of time so you do not forget to ask them all. Sometimes a conversation starts out as comparing milling machines and broadens to the same maker's lathe. In the case of makers like Sherline or Taig, that make both types of machine, there are a lot of accessories that work on either their lathe or their mill. For such companies, it may be worth a quick glance at the "Milling Machine Comparisons" text file to get a fuller picture of opinions and experiences about their products. If you got to this file directly from my HOME PAGE, return there by using your browser's back button. BUT if you came to this file as the result of a web search engine, see more than 70 additional files on my home page Machining and Metalworking at Home http://www.janellestudio.com/metal/ SAFETY WARNING BEWARE: DO NOT ASSUME that any subject matter or procedure or process is safe or correct or appropriate just because it was mentioned in a news/user group or was included in these files or on this site or on any other web site or was published in a magazine or book or video. Working with metals and machinery and chemicals and electrical equipment is inherently dangerous. Wear safety devices and clothing as appropriate. Remove watches, rings, and jewellery -- and secure or remove loose clothing -- before operating any machine. Read, understand and follow the latest operating procedures and safety instructions provided by the manufacturer of your machine or tool or product. If you do not have those most recent official instructions, acquire a copy through the manufacturer before operating or using their product. Where the company no longer exists, use the appropriate news or user group to locate an official copy. Be careful -- original instructions may not meet current safety standards. Updated safety information and operating instructions may also be available through a local club, a local professional in the trade, a local business, or an appropriate government agency. In every case, use your common sense before beginning or taking the next step; and do not proceed if you have any questions or doubts about any procedure, or the safety of any procedure. Follow all laws and codes, and employ certified or licenced professionals as required by those laws or codes. Hazardous tasks beyond your competence or expertise should also be contracted to professionals. Let's be really careful out there. (c) Copyright 2003 - 2011 Machining and Metalworking at Home The form of the collected work in this text file (including editing, additions, and notes) is copyrighted and this file is not to be reproduced by any means, including electronic, without written permission except for strictly personal use. ========================================================================== Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2000 08:33:30 -0800 From: "Carl Carlsen" Subject: Lathes from China This post has nothing to do with Atlas/Craftsman lathes, but when you get tired of "tweaking" your old one and perhaps think it is time to buy a new lathe, what would you buy? Here's what an "owner" had to say (off the Model Engineers list) when someone asked a similar question. One man's experience, but I thought it might be interesting to you. Carl "Please do a deja news search on this topic for rec.crafts.metalworking - a number of us have made multiple posts that you might want to read. As a quick rundown on my experiences with a BD920N and a note on the Grizzly: The Grizzly uses a 39x4.0 metric spindle thread that the lathe itself can't cut. I've never seen backing plates offered in this thread, and the tap is expensive (>$100 US if I recall.) The Jet is a 1 1/2 x8 TPI standard spindle thread. If you intend to ever fit a different chuck, this will matter a whole lot! The JET and all chinese 9x20 lathes are kits. Plan on a full tear down and clean up of many fit/finish items. Jet sent me a lot of parts under warranty. Plan on going over ALL gears with a fine wire brush, and likely the leadscrew keyway as well - burrs everywhere. You'll need a Dremel tool and several wire wheels, as well as a larger wire wheel in a bench grinder or drill press held in a vice. A surface plate and a stock of 400 and 600 grit silicon carbide paper will be needed, you'll get real good at low tech methods for lapping surfaces flat. The gear train gear bores will likely not fit the shafts, you'll have to enlarge them via a dowel and emery cloth using a drill press. The keyways may be improperly cut in the gears, a small triangular file will let you fix this. All bearing surfaces on the knobs will need to be lapped flat before the cross slide or compound screws will turn freely and smoothly enough to let you correctly adjust backlash. The four jaw is junk - it's a cheapo woodworking style, the three jaw is almost OK, but will be full of swarf and grinding debris. The spindle is likely too tight in the bearings to allow proper headstock bearing adjustment - tear it down, mount the spindle in another lathe, and carefully polish and reduce OD until the bearings are a firm sliding fit. It goes on from here. About 20 to 40 hours work and it can be made into an OK lathe if you have some tool building/rebuilding experience. It took me about 30 hours to get the lathe into OK running condition, I just did a full tear down for annual cleaning and spent about an extra ten hours improving fits though out, polishing cranks and knobs, and making a better handle for the compound. Mine now runs smoothly and cuts well. Be aware that the compound and crossslide lead screws are metric with imperial calibrated collars, resulting in several thou per revolution error. Jet was very good about getting replacement parts to me, it seems mine was worse than most. Perhaps they have improved the QC functions in China, but recent posts and conversations with fellow club members lead me to think not by much. Should you buy one, let us know how it is out of the box. If you want to contact me off list with specific problems with certain assemblies I'll be happy to pass on specific improvement/correction to problems information. A full rebuild set of instructions would run multiple full pages and I haven't ever written them all up. If I do, I'll post the info to the dropbox. Work is busy though, it won't be happening soon." ------- Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2001 04:09:27 -0000 From: luserx~xxblargh.wpi.edu Subject: Re: Question about the Taig Lathe! In taigtools..., "Ed" wrote: > I was wondering whether or not to buy a Taig Lathe or not. I see > that alot of people use the 7x10 Mini-Lathe but only one or two that > I have seen use the Taig. From the pics at the Taig website itlooks I don't have much experience with my Taig yet, but I will pass long what I have observed. I managed to go to a Harbor Freight outlet at Christmas time. That store is a dangerous place if you have any money on you... but while I was there I got to poke around at the 7x10 that they offer. I wasn't impressed. Although the 7x10 looked more like the DoAll's that I used at school, there was about 0.050 of backlash in all the controls. My taig has 0.003 The over all fit and finish was poor on the 7x10, but that could also be because it was a display model. I could't find a dimension on the 7x10 that could house a 1/4 hp motor. I don't know what it used in there for power. I am happy that I bought a Taig. The thing to remember is that the Taig isn't a scaled down big machine. It is a purpose built small machine. It is more of an instrument or watch makers lathe. Don't let the small size fool you. As the size of the work drops so do the forces generated by cutting. Smaller forces and smaller sizes lead to a more rigid structure, so you don't need as much meat on the lathe. Even so, deflections can and do happen. It encourages you to keep your tools sharp and your pieces well supported. Good habits to have I think. For me the Taig was the right choice. I got a lathe and tooling for a very afordable price. I have the ability to add on and modify as needed, something that I couldn't easily do on a 7x10. Is the taig right for you? It depends on what you are trying to do. Turn your brake rotors - no. Build clocks - yes. Restore a 5x6 inch vertical steam engine - not likely. Build a 1/10 model of said engine - yes. So what are you trying to do? Joe Krzeszewski ------- Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2001 09:06:17 -0500 From: Ken Jenkins Subject: Taig vs 7x10 > I was wondering whether or not to buy a Taig Lathe or not. I see > that alot of people use the 7x10 Mini-Lathe but only one or two that > I have seen use the Taig. Well I doubt you'll find many folk here who think the Taig is "worthless" since this is a Taig group afterall, however, taking your meaning. The 7x10 might be better if threading is all important to you. Although the Taig can be retrofitted for this function it doesn't come with the option. In all other respects, I would be happy to set the Taig up against the 7x10. In terms of workmanship and precision especially. The 7x10's I've seen are pretty sloppy. Also in favor of the Taig, IMHO is the cost of accessories. As always it depends on what you want to do with it. I do a lot of small work in brass, aluminum, plastic and wood. For me it fits the bill perfectly. If you need to pass 1" bar through the headstock ... forget it. Ken ------- Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2001 14:23:34 +0000 From: Tony Jeffree Subject: Re: Question about the Taig Lathe! The Taig lathe is very far from worthless - take a look at some of the stuff in the files section of this eGroup, on Nick Carter's webpage, on my own webpage....etc. to see the kind of things that can be done with it. Having said that, as others have observed, a tool is only useful within its operating envelope, and therefore, the first step in choosing the right lathe is to decide what you will expect it to do for you. I bought mine with clockmaking and related toolmaking activities in mind; I also have a Myford ML7 for stuff that is outside the scope of the Taig's working envelope. For small items, I will use the Taig in preference to the ML7, as it is often easier to set up & use than the ML7 for fine work. For larger items, there is no sensible alternative but to use the bigger lathe. Having seen the 7x10 equivalent machines on sale here in the UK, my own choice of small lathe would still be the Taig, unless I had the time to treat the 7x10 as a "lathe kit" and re-finish it. Regards, Tony ------- Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 12:53:15 -0700 From: "John Shadle" Subject: Taig vs. Oriental 7x10's My response to the comparison of the Taig to the oriental 7x10 is that the oriental 7x10 is junk. The Taig is not. I have an oriental 7x10. A foot away from the chuck a rod held in the chuck is a full 1/8" out-of-line with the bed. Then the plastic drive pulleys broke, and it took a while to get them replaced. No sooner had I done that when the variable speed power supply (or was it the motor?) gave out a puff of blue smoke and died. At that point, the 7x10 was stored in the junk shed for good. The only good part of it was the little chuck, which ran true as long as the lathe ran. If you enjoy headaches, or pounding your thumb with a hammer, buy an oriental 7x10. The Taig may be smaller than you need, but at least it's a well-made machine. One thing I've liked is it's adaptability. You can modify parts of it to suit your own needs better than anything else I've seen. For example, a couple of days ago I reconfigured the toolpost to hold an item which needed a small slit cut. I drilled a hole in the toolpost to hold the item without a thought. Had the post been spoiled for its original use, I would have just sent off for another one for a few bucks. John Shadle online clock building: www.geocities.com/jshadle.geo/online_clock_building/index.html ------- Date: Sun, 04 Mar 2001 22:25:22 -0500 From: Stan Stocker Subject: Re: Question about the Taig Lathe! I also have a bit of time on larger lathes, and bought a Taig for really small work. It's is a very good lathe for the work that fits within its envelope. Here are the minuses - no power feed or single point threading. These haven't bothered me, as in this size I lean towards tap and die anyway. Some vendors offer a 1/10 HP motor with the lathe - skip on this one, it isn't up to the task. I use a old GE 1/2 HP with good results. Sharp tools of the correct geometry are critical to getting good results on lathes of this size. Sherline owners say the same, so this isn't a Taig issue, but one that applies to all the small lathes. I have a SB 13x7 foot, a JET 9x20, an SB Workshop C that is almost through restoration, and a Taig. The Taig is my first choice for the really small stuff. It is a very good value for the money. Stan ------- Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2001 23:20:54 EST From: tadici283x~xxcs.com Subject: Re: Re: Question about the Taig Lathe! Those of us that have both the Taig and the HF 7x10 know that the HF does take some fixing up to get it to "work", I have read some rather harsh words on the little 7x10 wonder, that may or may not be a good representative of the machine's capabilities, but in fairness I can say that the machine is not in my opinion trash. Please no flame wars as to "yes it is, no it isn't", this machine has several features that the Taig doesn't have like built in threading, a frog is nearly half the cost of this lathe, and the machine also has variable speed, yes you can add this via treadmill motor and that is what many of us did with our Taigs, but it is included. The biggest feature of this lathe is weight, it weights some where in the 85 LB area, a lot heaver than that of the Taig and has a built in compound, and MT tailstock and headstock and a leadscrew with power feed. I would say that, first that I love my Taig tools the most, but this machine, if you regard it as more of a kit is capable of doing any work that the Taig can do, in fact I have made many tools, and modifications to my Taig with this machine, you can do small work on a large lathe, but you cannot do large work on a small machine and as stated in other posts it depends on what type of work you need to do. Chris of Bradenton FLA ------- Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 22:26:13 -0500 From: ron ginger Subject: Re: opinions on Prazi david albert wrote: > Does anyone have an opinion of Prazi lathes and mills? I used a Prazi lathe at the demo at Cabin Fever- it was loaned to use by the importer, John Szot. I own a Prazi Mill, the BF450 which I bought after I sold my Grizzley Mini mill. They are well made, German machines. Very high quality, all the fits and finish were just as you would expect from an expensive German import. One minor annoyance on the lathe. The bed is a round bar, the tailstock is held to it by a split casting and clamp arrangement. It has an 'unclamp' screw that must be TIGHTENED to release the tailstock to slide. Then when you get it in position, you loosen the unclamp, and then tighten the clamp screw. A bit strange, and it confused us on the demo, but Im sure you would get used to it with a little practice. It did hold very well. Not cheap, but a good quality machine. A good size step up over Sherline, still smaller than Bridgeports and the usual line of commercial tools. If you drive a BMW you ought to have a Prazi. If you are a Ford or Chevy guy an old Logan Lathe and used Clausing mill will do. ron ginger ------- Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 08:32:29 -0000 From: putomanusx~xxyahoo.com Subject: Clisby Miniature Lathes Anybody here ever seen or worked with a clisby miniature lathe? Their website is at: http://www.clisby.com.au/LatheMetal.html ------- Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 09:50:45 -0400 From: "Timothy M Sullivan" Subject: Why Sherline? I am new to the group, and joined to find more information on which lathe I should buy. I would like to know if the Sherline is indeed better for working smaller parts (1/16" to 1/4" diam) than a larger machine like a 9x20 bench top (like Jet's) or even Micro-Mark's 7x12. I am not in need of thousandths accuracy, but would like something that can handle some aggressive turning. Also, what are the advantages of the Sherline over the Taig? Thanks, Tim Timothy M Sullivan Model Yachts Custom model yachts from pond boat to museum quality http://www.sullboat.com ------- Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 14:12:37 -0000 From: "Jim Lewis" Subject: Re: Clisby Miniature Lathes > Anybody here ever seen or worked with a clisby miniature lathe? I have the Clisby, the Sherline, and the Taig. I need them all for testing our low-cost Frog CNC controller. You can see our Clisby at http://www.emachineshop.com. Assuming you're asking for an opinion, the unit looks very nice and is much less expensive than the Sherline or Taig but you basically get what you pay for. The main problems are that the motor is tiny and hence weak and the 4 jaw chuck is not the greatest. All the dimensions are less also. Large lathe users probably think of the micro lathes as toys. To me the micro lathes are "real" and the Clisby is the toy. Regards, Jim Lewis http://www.emachineshop.com ------- Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 10:51:26 EDT From: tadici283x~xxcs.com Subject: Re: Re: Clisby Miniature Lathes In a message dated 6/14/2001 7:34:13 AM Pacific Daylight Time, jimlewisx~xxmiclog.com writes: > I have the Clisby, the Sherline, and the Taig. I need them all for > testing our low-cost Frog CNC controller. You can see our Clisby at > http://www.emachineshop.com. Assuming you're asking for an opinion, > the unit looks very nice and is much less expensive than the Sherline > or Taig but you basically get what you pay for. The main problems are Jim, I have to say that I am curious about the clisby, I know already that the size is small and intended for small stuff, but how is fit and finish? Are the component parts fairly made well? Would you say that it not worth the money even if you intend to do very small work and not over use it for what it was not designed to do? A lot of people like to modify their tools, with modification can this tool do some real (but smaaalll) work? I have not seen one in person and would like more info did your frog produce good results for what you can get out of it (75 tpi)? Any help would be appreciated, and no I am not going to run out and sell my other machines! Chris of Bradenton FL ------- Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 00:50:14 +1000 From: "Charlie Lear" Subject: Re: Why Sherline? On Thu, 14 Jun 2001, Timothy M Sullivan wrote: >I am new to the group, and joined to find more information on which lathe >I should buy. I would like to know if the Sherline is indeed better for >working smaller parts (1/16" to 1/4" diam) than a larger machine like >a 9x20bench top (like Jet's) or even Micro-Mark's 7x12. I've got both a Sherline 4100 and a Taiwanese 920. The Sherline is far superior in build quality and accuracy out of the box. The range of available accessories (collets, quick change tooling, carbide tools, steadies) can make working with small parts a pleasure. The 920 has six speeds, a top speed of 1800/1900rpm, and unless you have a GOOD example will rattle and vibrate badly at that speed. The Sherline's variable speed of up to 3000rpm is far more suited to smaller work, and as has been mentioned here the headstock is rated at up to 5000rpm if you want to make new pulleys. I've spent a lot of time fettling, fixing and tweaking my 920 to give satisfactory performance. This is my second 920 - my first Chinese-built one was sent back after a year for a full refund. The quality of the 920 is VERY variable, and unless you know what to look for you may be disappointed. A Sherline is guaranteed to be excellent from day one. HOWEVER: The Sherline longitudinal feed is via the leadscrew. If you are in the habit of pulling the saddle clear to check tools or make measurements, your thumb and forefinger will soon get grooves worn from the leadscrew handwheel. You may want to invest in the power feed attachment, or look at making some sort of adapter to use a battery screwdriver on the handwheel. Racking the saddle on a larger lathe is much nicer. Also the lack of adjustment on the Sherline tailstock may grate if you are after the last thou of accuracy. To get around this, Sherline does offer adjustable centres and drill chuck adapters. The 920 tailstock is adjustable and in my experience will need to be adjusted, both for horizontal and vertical alignment. I've uncovered a problem with my 920 tailstock in that using the screw adjustment twists the body of the tailstock against the base, so that the centre is in line but its pointing off at a small angle! I'm working on that one. > I am not in need of thousandths accuracy, but would like something > that can handle some aggressive turning. You don't want to be too aggressive with small stock. High speed and sharp tools will do what you want without straining the machinery or forcing the pace. I did some 6mm (1/4") one-pass cuts in brass on the weekend using a positive rake carbide tool on the 920. That was after a strip-down, clean and adjustment session, and VERY carefully hand feeding. I wouldn't do that on the Sherline, but 1/8" roughing cuts shouldn't present a problem. I guess one of the questions you have to ask is, how much time do you want to spend cutting metal versus the amount of time spent playing with the machine to get it going properly? > Also, what are the advantages of the Sherline over the Taig? I've never used a Taig, but I've seen one up close. Those who have them swear by them. I prefer the Sherline's quality and accessories, if you're making lots of small holes the Taig's lever-feed tailstock is a boon. Your mileage may vary! Hope that fills in some of the gaps in the jigsaw. Cheers Charlie Charlie Lear, Melbourne, Australia clearx~xxsteammachine.com Hutt Valley Model Engineer Soc. http://steammachine.com/hvmes Eastern Bays Little Blue Penguin Foundation: same site /penguins ------- Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 15:31:27 -0000 From: "Jim Lewis" Subject: Re: Clisby Miniature Lathes > I have to say that I am curious about the Clisby, I know already > that the size is small and intended for small stuff, but how is fit > and finish? Hi Chris: I would say quite good. I mainly don't like the way they did the chuck - hard to explain - just uncomfortable to work with. > are the component parts fairly made well? Yes. > would you say that it not worth the money even if you intend to do very small work and not over use it for what it was not designed to do? It's about 1/5 the price of the Sherline and about 1/5 as useful. > a lot of people like to modify their tools, with modification can > this tool do some real (but smaaaalllllll) work? If you could rig up a decent motor and chuck you might be in decent shape. I don't have their 3-jaw - it might be better. > I have not seen one in person and would like more info did your > frog produce good results for what you can get out of it (75 tpi)? The Frog worked well on it but the Clisby motor is really too weak for threading. The Frog stepper is much stronger than the Clisby main spindle motor! For Frog functions other than threading (power feed, precise measurement, etc) it worked well on the Clisby. Regards, Jim http://www.emachineshop.com/frog ------- Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 08:57:22 -0700 From: "Yasmiin Davis" Subject: RE: Why Sherline? This is a nice comparison of the two alternatives. I was wondering what your opinion of the effect on rigidity using the Sherline riser blocks? Yasmiin ------- Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 09:16:35 -0700 From: "Craig Libuse" Subject: Re: Clisby Miniature Lathes > Anybody here ever seen or worked with a clisby miniature lathe? Their > website is at .... http://www.clisby.com.au/LatheMetal.html This is just some info you might find interesting on the Clisby lathe and the inventor, Harold Clisby. As you may know, he is also the inventor of the Sherline lathe. Back in the 60's, he is the one who saw the Unimat as a great little product with too much flexibility. He came up with the concept of using extrusions to keep cost down while increasing rigidity. We have the original shop drawings for his design on the wall in our showroom, and it is immediately recognizable as the Sherline lathe still sold today with only minor changes over the years. His concept was solid enough to withstand the test of time. Mr. Clisby and his son, Orville visited our factory a couple of years ago. He is one incredibly talented designer. The range of products he has designed and successfully marketed is far beyond what most people attempt. He has designed and built everything from his own home to machine tools (large and small) to air compressors to things as far in the other direction as a line of women's clothing. I also recently came across an article in the January 1963 issue of Road & Track magazine detailing the 1500cc V-6 DOC Formula I engine he designed and built. His latest product is the small Clisby lathe. We have a Clisby lathe and complete accessory line for this tool in our showroom which he kindly contributed to our display of miniature machine tools. Although I have not run it, it seems to be built of good quality and designed appropriately for the small motor and the asking price. You will see some design features in common with the Sherline, which is not surprising considering its heritage, but it is VERY small. It would be appropriate if space and/or budget were very limited or mobility were a prime requirement and the parts needed were quite small. Other than that, it might be worth getting just because it is a cool little machine and somewhat of a conversation piece. I can certainly vouch for the designer/manufacturer as a man of great talent and integrity. Craig Libuse Sherline Products Inc. ------- Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 17:22:29 -0000 From: ptolemyx~xxbellsouth.net Subject: Re: Why Sherline? Charlie's review is excellent. I like the range of attachments and tooling on the Sherline. I use the lathe and mill about 50/50 and it's convenient that both use the same standards for T-nuts,etc. It's amazing how many of the add-ons have become indispensible to me (especially the rotary table for the mill and the compound slide for the lathe). Neil ------- Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 19:42:19 -0000 From: markzemanekx~xxyahoo.com Subject: Re: Clisby Miniature Lathes In sherline..., "Jim Lewis" wrote: > > Anybody here ever seen or worked with a clisby miniature lathe? Jim: I bought one of the Clisby's last December, when they were on sale for $100. I also purchased the longer bed, separately, and the total cost was still less than the going rate for the long bed version (U.S. $179). I'm completely new to machining, and my main hobby is telescope making. I wanted something I could use to make focusers for my scopes (my eyepieces have 1-1/4" wide tubes). I also have very limited space, and needed something really small. I know that I'm going to have to make some modifications to the Clisby for my intended purposes. I'd like to add some risers to it, if possible, in order to handle the slightly larger stock needed for the size I mentioned above. Am I trying to take this little lathe out of its league? >The main problems are that the motor is tiny and hence weak and the >4 jaw chuck is not the greatest. Exactly what my machinist friend said. He suggests I replace the tiny power plant with something akin to a sewing machine motor. I'm not delighted with the 4 jaw chuck, either, and my friend suggested buying one of Sherline's 3 jaw chucks and making an adapter/spindle to place it on the Clisby's drive shaft. Its larger size will make the risers a necessity if I were to go this route. Thanks, Mark ------- Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 13:20:00 +1000 From: "Charlie Lear" Subject: RE: Why Sherline? On Thu, 14 Jun 2001 08:57:22 -0700, Yasmiin Davis wrote: >This is a nice comparison of the two alternatives. I was >wondering what your opinion of the effect on rigidity using >the Sherline riser blocks? Never sold them, never used them. If I've got something too big for the Sherline to handle without risers, then it goes in a bigger lathe. Not everybody has that luxury, so I'd be willing to hear from riser block users too! Cheers Charlie Charlie Lear, Melbourne, Australia clearx~xxsteammachine.com Hutt Valley Model Engineer Soc. http://steammachine.com/hvmes Eastern Bays Little Blue Penguin Foundation: same site /penguins ------- Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 01:23:20 -0400 From: "Wilks, Ronald (Ronald)" Subject: RE: Model Bridgeport [sherline] Original Message----- >>?>From: jvicarsx~xxcoltec.com [mailto:jvicarsx~xxcoltec.com] Sent: Friday, June 15, Has anyone ever seen or heard of a 1/4 scale or smaller model of a bridgeport milling machine? Is there a link on sherline's website where we can see all of the miniature machines in the Sherline museum? <<< Take a look at Barry Jordan's home page listed below. He is a model engineer from England who specializes in models of machine tools. http://www.barryjordan.freeola.com Two Bridgeport machines are featured on his WWW site, a 1/5 scale model, as well as an even smaller replica. Ron -------- From: torquemada40223x~xxy... Date: Tue Jun 26, 2001 9:10 am Subject: Re: Lathe purchasing advice? [taigtools] In taigtools..., gregs_junk... wrote: > I'm researching the various lathe options available to an > inexperienced garage experimenter such as myself. I built a robot > and competed in the 2001 battlebots tournament and want to buy a > small lathe so that I can make things like custom wheel hubs and > drive shafts for future robots. I've been reading everything I can > get my hands on about the subject including many many web pages. > The kinds of parts I will need to turn will be up to 4" diameter and > usually made out of 6061 Al. I'm considering the following: > Taig Lathe - Sounds like a good reliable lathe but can it handle > parts of this size? Sherline Lathe - Same situation as the Taig. > Import 7x12 Lathe - AFAIK, this one is larger than both the Taig and > Sherline and should (barely?) be able to handle 4" parts. But the > quality of these is suspect. Can someone as inexperienced as I > handle "fixing" one of these machines? A good thing is that there > seems to be a large number of people out there improving these machines. > Import 9x20 Lathe - Definitely big enough but even more quality > question marks than the 7x12 aparently. Weight becomes an issue as > well, how will I *move* the thing! Used 9" South Bend or other - As > far as I can gather, used American lathes can be very nice but will > I know a gem from trash? Weight also an issue here. > Any advice greatly appreciated! thanks, greg Gregs_Junk--I've done a lot of similar research when I prepared to get my setup 10 months ago. I wound up with a long-bed Sherline, which I'm very happy with. However, if I didn't have a lathe, I'd probably go out and get a Taig. The reasons I got the Sherline were that (a) it's widely known, (b) has a wide variety of accessories, (c) has a long-bed version, and (d) seems to be a bit more 'total novice' friendly. While I've not actually played with a Taig, from discussions I've seen, it apparently has the advantages of (a) lower cost, (b) being more rigid. All in all, I'm very happy with my choice. However, now that I'm not quite so much a novice, if I had to purchase a lathe, I'd probably go with a Taig this time. Reasons? (a) I don't use the long bed, as I though I might--in fact, I've used the tailstock only once--nearly all of my work is up close to the chuck. (b) I'm not as much of a novice as I was, so the Taig doesn't seem nearly so intimidating to me. I've no experience with the Chinese machines, but after all I've read, I'd consider them an interesting project *AFTER* I learn more. After all, if you don't have experience, if you cut some metal and it doesn't turn out the way you want, how do you know if it's your technique or some flaw in the machine? I'd suggest a Sherline or Taig for your first lathe. Most of your stuff is going to be small for your robots, so these should both have a nice size for you. If you occasionally need to turn something in the neighborhood of 4", you might lean towards the Sherline and get the riser blocks for it to give you the extra swing when you need it. marco ------- From: phil-jasterx~xxe... Date: Tue Jun 26, 2001 2:57 pm Subject: Re: Lathe purchasing advice? > The kinds of parts I will need to turn will be up to 4" diameter and > usually made out of 6061 Al. I'm considering the following: > Taig Lathe - Sounds like a good reliable lathe but can it handle > parts of this size? Greg: I would suggest saving big dollars for later... right now I would suggest the TAIG as an excellent learning lathe and you will continue to use it if IF you buy a larger lathe later! You can outfit all your your TAIG needs for the price of a basic Sherline..... since you are already a Junk Yard specialist you probably have a good 1/3 hp motor to spin that TAIG lathe... I am totally sold on the performance of the TAIG and own TWO of them one just for wood one for metals.... Hope that helps and keep on BOTing! phil ------- From: John Ralston Date: Fri Jun 29, 2001 12:24 am Subject: Taig hybrid for building tiny tools Hello Taigers--I hope you can help with some advice and consultation. My hobby, watch repair, is a business of careful tiny parts. Usually one buys a part ,or cannibalizes a watch. Actually making screws, staffs, and arbors on the nanoscale is painful: I have made enough tiny parts on a wood-lathe via archaic methods using a graver that I deserve a break. I've decided that the fun of making tooling to work on the watches is a realistic excuse to buy a real lathe, and narrowed the choices to Taig or Sherline. Specifically I want to build a device I've seen, to be run on the lathe, for turning smaller parts. This device involves primitive tiny spindles, runners, and adjustable centers that are scaled down to the appropriate 5 x loupe and 0.1- 1.0 cm working distance of the watchmaker. My current plan comes from reading many of your helpful discussions in the archives. I've also read enough of the Carter tools, Taig, and Sherline etc. links to have a few basic ideas. Here is my plan: 1) Get a basic Taig lathe, and a Sherline motor with control. Right/wrong? 2) Immediately turn a spacer to fit a Sherline 3 jaw chuck. 3) Run with a Sherline 3 jaw chuck and a few Sherline fancy accessories, along with as many Taig accessories as I can use, in an effort to have the best of both worlds. I've decided the Taig is better because: ** It is less well known ** There are dovetails all over to mount things **The lead screw to move the Sherline carriage must be agony to work. Right or wrong? **The tailstock on the Sherline looks pitiful and unadjustable **Taig accessories run about 1/2 of Sherline cost. The down side of the Taig is: ** It is less well known **I hate the idea of a 1/4 -1/2 horse 1725 RPM washing machine motor grabbing a sleeve and ripping my arm off. **The 3 jaw chuck seems to be aluminum, not steel, and quite a flesh-eater. I'll buzz my nose off on it. **Cosmetics, it cannot be denied, are an element of fancy machine tools, and the Sherline appears to be prettied up better. Wrong? I'd appreciate your insights. In particular, I am willing to pay the money for either route: if Sherline might objectively justify the cost, then paying the money for good tools is always worth it. I have a notion that the Taig is a better design, with the Sherline having better promotion. I hope that you can add some useful information to help my choice of a hybrid. thanks John Ralston ------- From: phil-jasterx~xxe... Date: Fri Jun 29, 2001 1:44 am Subject: Re: Taig hybrid for building tiny tools > **I hate the idea of a 1/4 -1/2 horse 1725 RPM washing machine motor > grabbing a sleeve and ripping my arm off. ::::> humor huh, you'll fit in great with this group.... I have yet to rip a sleave off.... Oh I am not using a washing machine motor! > **The 3 jaw chuck seems to be aluminum, not steel, and quite a > flesh-eater. I'll buzz my nose off on it. :::::> Lee Valley Tools sells a great cuff that goes over its got color and says don't get your nose to close in three different languages. > **Cosmetics, it cannot be denied, are an element of fancy machine > tools, and the Sherline appears to be prettied up better. Wrong? ::::::> I am VERY happy to have the lack of cosmetics in liew of higher grade of lathe! You can chrome plate and spiff up plastic but the TAIG is a very Robust Quality built Lathe, comes in one color and that was good for Ford and is Good for the owners of TAIG LATHES! you have got it advertising by owners is the best.... BTW I own two TAIG lathes, one for wood one for metal! Good luck on your watch repairing. phil ------- From: Tony Jeffree Date: Fri Jun 29, 2001 3:51 am Subject: Re: [taigtools] Taig hybrid for building tiny tools >1) Get a basic Taig lathe, and a Sherline motor with control.. Right or >wrong? Good combination. The variable speed is great. If you use the Taig pulley set, this will give you a speed range from dead slow up to about 14,000 RPM (I have this combo on my Taig mill - same headstock/pulleys as the lathe). >2) Immediately turn a spacer to fit a Sherline 3 jaw chuck. >3) Run with a Sherline 3 jaw chuck and a few Sherline fancy >accessories, along with as many Taig accessories as I can use, in an >effort to have the best of both worlds. Horses for courses. Sherline does nice chucks, but the Taig soft jaw chuck has its uses too - you can modify the jaws for specific purposes - the jaw sets are a consumable. This feature is *very* useful. >I've decided the Taig is better because: >** It is less well known >** There are dovetails all over to mount things >**The lead screw to move the Sherline carriage must be agony to work. >Right or wrong? Yes. I have fitted a 20TPI leadscrew to my Taig, but it has a split nut & can therefore be disengaged. Attempting to traverse by hand with the leadscrew is very slow. >**The tailstock on the Sherline looks pitiful and unadjustable On the other hand, the Sherline tailstock is an MT taper, which can be useful. >**Taig accessories run about 1/2 of Sherline cost. True. >The down side of the Taig is: >** It is less well known >**I hate the idea of a 1/4 -1/2 horse 1725 RPM washing machine motor >grabbing a sleeve and ripping my arm off. So do I - but don't make the mistake of assuming that the Sherline motor isn't just as capable of ripping your arm off. I believe their motor is a similar power rating. >**The 3 jaw chuck seems to be aluminum, not steel, and quite a >flesh-eater. I'll buzz my nose off on it. ...but see comments above. And for small work, the Taig collets are very useful & cheap. You might even consider a Taig with a WW taper headstock if your primary interest is small parts. >**Cosmetics, it cannot be denied, are an element of fancy machine >tools, and the Sherline appears to be prettied up better. Wrong? Yes - the Sherline machines look "prettier", but the Taig machines are more robust/rigid. I think your notion pretty much coincides with mine. Taig have never been heavy on advertising/marketing - they seem to feel that their machines speak for themselves. And they do that eloquently in my opinion. To some extent, you can have the best of both worlds - I have bought a number of Sherline accessories over the past few years that I use with my Taig mill, and no doubt some of their stuff (like their chucks) can be adapted for use with the lathe. Regards, Tony ------- From: torquemada40223... Date: Fri Jun 29, 2001 7:06 am Subject: Re: Taig hybrid for building tiny tools John-- I'm a Sherliner right now, but... > 1) Get a basic Taig lathe, and a Sherline motor with control.. That sounds like a good plan. I *love* the variable speed motor. However, many people find that there's a surplus store that offers (from time to time) a DC motor and variable speed controller combination for a reasonable price. (Lower than Sherline's.) Sorry, but I don't know the particulars (name of company, phone #...) > 3) Run with a Sherline 3 jaw chuck and a few Sherline fancy > accessories, along with as many Taig accessories as I can use I *really* like the rotary table... > **The lead screw to move the Sherline carriage must be agony to work. Uh, well, not agony. But then again, not a joy, either. I've been thinking of adding a power feed so I can quick cranking the knob. > **Taig accessories run about 1/2 of Sherline cost. Yep. Sherline offers more accessories, but the ones Taig offers are less costly. marco ------- From: n2562001x~xxy... Date: Fri Jun 29, 2001 2:16 pm Subject: Re: Taig hybrid for building tiny tools Tom Wrote > Not sure on this one. One of the reasons Jerry Kieffer prefers the > Sherline to the Taig is the tailstock. Apparently it's unadjustable, > but it's rigid as hell. Tom: Having owned both lathes and they are both rigid enough for the size of the lathes. Most of my model parts are about ten times the size of pocket watch parts to about one third the size of parts in a ladies wrist watch. With that in mind there are three reasons I prefer the Sherline tail stock. (1) The morse taper mount offers absolute repeatability of the chuck installation. (I use Albrecht and Rohm chucks.) (2) Sherline offers a device to adjust the chuck in all directions for centering not just right or left. For example if you are using a good quality .010" spade drill and your .001"- .002" off in any direction, you probably just broke the drill. (3) The ram is fed by a lead screw. When using small tooling you need absolute feed and depth control that I could not get with the lever feed. I tried several modifications but was never able to get the light touch I have and need now. By the way did you ever purchase that Rohm drill chuck and if so how is it working out? Jerry Kieffer ------- From: "David Robertson" Date: Fri Jun 29, 2001 12:29 pm Subject: Re: [taigtools] Taig hybrid for building tiny tools John: A few additional comments in addition to the good ones you have already gotten. > 3) Run with a Sherline 3 jaw chuck and a few Sherline fancy > accessories, along with as many Taig accessories as I can use, in an > effort to have the best of both worlds. I think someone else mentioned Taig is available with a WW spindle. If you decide you want to have the regular spindle to use Taig collets, you can easily make a WW chuck/holder from a blank arbor to allow use of WW collets in addition to the Taig ones. > **The tailstock on the Sherline looks pitiful and unadjustable I do clock repair and one of the things that led me away from the Sherline to the Taig was the tailstock. Many have had alignment problems with the non-adjustable Sherline tailstock. You can compensate for it somewhat by slightly rotating the headstock and Sherline makes a series of devices to correct the problem. They are essentially sliding disks... one end fits in the tailstock taper, the other end holds either a jacobs chuck, a collet or something else I can't remember... anyway there are three of these devices and they are about $30 each. They also take up space between centers which probably isn't a concern for most of your watchmaking activities but is for other things. I assume from your comments that you are planning on fitting some sort of turns to the Taig or Sherline... or some headstock/tailstock held fixtures to make it act like a set of turns... ?? any plans/drawings/pictures would be appreciated. Dave ------- From: Stan Stocker Date: Sat Jun 30, 2001 2:05 am Subject: Re: [taigtools] Taig hybrid for building tiny tools John: I'm neither a watch nor a clock maker, but I have made some quite small parts over the years. I'll answer what I can BELOW the original question and try not to comment where I'm ignorant. I have used both Taig and Sherline lathes. After using them both, I bought a Taig. Other members of my club have Sherlines. Both companies are good reputable folks making good lathes. Different designs, different philosophies. Freehanding watch parts on a wood lathe - you are to be honored at the least, and perhaps held in awe! I thought I'd pulled off some hairy ones until I read your post. Big item. You can buy a threading (hand cranked, not power single pointing) setup for Sherline. Is it even reasonable to consider this in the sizes you work with, or are tiny threads always done via die stocks or chasing? There is a device (the FROG) that adds a stepper motor to the Taig carriage wheel and adds fine thread cutting under power ability to the Taig. I saw it at Cabin Fever and was sorely tempted, but spent my limit on things needed more. Maybe next year. > Here is my plan: 1) Get a basic Taig lathe, and a Sherline motor > with control.. Right or wrong? Good possibility, another option is the PM variable speed motor offered from Surplus center, or try the existing pulley set with a 1/6 to 1/2 HP motor. See if you need VS. I have it on one lathe and not on the others. It's nice, but not mandatory. The VS here is on a 13 inch lathe, mostly to let me get the speed down for large work when the back gears aren't slow enough, such as threading large shaft to a shoulder. Beats having to juggle multiple jackshafts. > 2) Immediately turn a spacer to fit a Sherline 3 jaw chuck. OK, if you want steel jaws on your three jaw chuck. You could also make steel jaws to put in place when needed on the Taig 3 jaw and discover the benefits of soft jaws as time allows. For really accurate work where you are not going to turn the OD of the entire work and part off, three jaw chucks are only good to several thou at most sizes, and when trued are only true for the size you trued them at. Never end a sentence with a preposition either ;-) If you need precision, a four jaw chuck and a dial indicator will give you steel jaws and the ability to set work to whatever level of precision you require and have the patience to dial in. Personally, I don't like the spacer approach. I mate the chuck to the spindle it is to go on. If you don't have a mill and boring head, you can do this on the lathe using a faceplate and some dial indicator work. I'd rather bore the register to fit than add two more interface layers to worry about keeping clean and undamaged. Not having a Sherline chuck, I don't know for a fact that there is enough depth to do this, but if there is, I'd go the traditional route rather than adding a spacer. A burr on the spacer could cock the chuck, resulting in turning a taper when you don't want to. Collets are even better. WW collets can be mounted in the Taig headstock with a WW spindle, or you can make a WW adapter from an arbor mounted to the standard spindle. Cost to make the adapter would be only a few dollars and an hour or so in time. If you are always going to turn the entire piece from larger stock, the stock collet set for the standard spindle covers a limited range, but might hold some useful raw rod stock sizes. Blank collets are cheap, but I don't think they would work as well as WW collets in the smallest sizes. Perhaps a drill chuck with the drill chuck arbor mounted in the headstock would give you the smaller size workholding ability at a far lower cost than a full set of WW collets. You could also purchase a complete headstock in each configuration, and have the best of both worlds. > 3) Run with a Sherline 3 jaw chuck and a few Sherline fancy > accessories, along with as many Taig accessories as I can use, in an > effort to have the best of both worlds. Sherline does make some nice stuff. 3 jaw approaches/alternatives beaten to death above ;-) > I've decided the Taig is better because: > ** It is less well known Depends where you are and what you read, but as a rule this is likely true. Doesn't make it better or worse. > ** There are dovetails all over to mount things Nope, they are T slots, you can make baby T nuts or use #10 square nuts. Default thread is 10-32, although 10-24 is better if you are threading in aluminum or brass. > **The lead screw to move the Sherline carriage must be agony to work. Yup, you can crank a LONG time to traverse from one end to the other. Long bed version is even worse. Make an adapter to let you run the screw with a small cordless screwdriver if you go with Sherline, although the crank might give you better control in the sizes you are working with. You'll likely want to rig up a leadscrew for fine feed for the Taig, using a toggle type of nut so you can disengage it easily for larger carriage movements via the rack. > Right or wrong? > **The tailstock on the Sherline looks pitiful and unadjustable One of the CAMS club members is tuning a Sherline tailstock and is finding it somewhat painful. It is not adjustable for set over. Upside is that the Sherline tailstock takes a MT1, so you can mount ultimoso drill chuck like the tiny Albrecht, should you have the spare $140 or so. I've considered making a MT1 tailstock ram to allow this, as well as a screw feed for precise small hole drilling, but haven't done it so far. You could also mount a plate to the Taig tailstock ram and mount a chuck to another plate. Some cap screws in slightly oversize holes would give the ability to adjust the drill to dead-on the spindle centerline. Sherline offers something similar for their lathes. A 1/8 inch bit doesn't care if its cutting 3 thou offline, a #80 that far off is called broken. > **Taig accessories run about 1/2 of Sherline cost. About that. Some are even less. Sherline offers some neat things Taig doesn't, Taig offers some neat things Sherline doesn't. > The down side of the Taig is: > ** It is less well known As above. Also no ability to turn the headstock, a nice feature of the Sherline should you want to turn tapers longer than the compound travel that are steeper than can be done comfortably by tailstock offset on the Taig, or without having to dial in each blank or cut and center drill blanks to precisely identical dimensions. > **I hate the idea of a 1/4 -1/2 horse 1725 RPM washing machine motor > grabbing a sleeve and ripping my arm off. I use an old GE 1/2 HP pump motor, no open windings! Or use an after- market VS motor as mentioned above. Roll up your sleeves or button them. Flapping fabric isn't safe around spinning stuff in any case, the work or chuck will grab it long before your hand gets back to the motor! > **The 3 jaw chuck seems to be aluminum, not steel, and quite a > flesh-eater. I'll buzz my nose off on it. The chuck and sub jaws are steel, only the interchangable upper jaws are aluminum. You can turn the soft jaws to whatever profile you want. If you want the traditional stepped three jaw look or function, you can cut your jaws that way. Spare jaws are only about $6 a set, so you can afford to make specialty jaws without going broke. If you have a mill, or access to one, you could crank out a bunch of blank jaws pretty quickly, but only if you enjoy the work. $2 a jaw is pretty hard to beat if you'd rather use your free time on other things. Wrap a large rubber band cut from an inner tube around the chuck, this won't disappear at high speeds as the jaw tips do, and will pad that fine initial contact with the stray knuckle or nose tip. The perimeter of any spinning chuck is a caution area, I've bloodied up a knuckle on the larger lathes far more often than on the Taig. > **Cosmetics, it cannot be denied, are an element of fancy machine > tools, and the Sherline appears to be prettied up better. Wrong? Right. The Sherline looks good. The Taig is made to be very flexible, without having to drill and tap holes for anything you want to cobble together. If you like the looks of the Sherline better and don't want or need the flexibility of all those places to mount stuff, go with it. This isn't meant in a smart mouthed way, I just repainted a 1939 SB lathe that was fine mechanically. It is important to me to have stuff I use for hours at a time attractive to look at. Used tools always get cleaned up, polished up, repainted, whatever is reasonable (and often unreasonable) to get them to new or close to new condition. Aesthetics is part of the pleasure. The Taig is attractive in the way an old Willys Jeep is. Basic, rugged, adaptable. A Sherline is attractive in a Miata way - nice out of the box, fun in its intended application range, but harder to adapt to oddball needs. Some see the beauty in both, some in only one or the other. Given your application, 'll bet you can find lots of neat things to add on to those T slots - polishing shafts, jascot drums, line/live shaft mounting points, dial indicators, indexing wheel stop pins and indicators, insert neato thing folks ignorant of watchmaking have never even heard of here ;-) Sherline advertises a lot, and does a lot to promote the hobby. Their website is a fine one, with lots of good information for small machine owners, regardless of the brand of tool they own. Taig makes lathes and mills as almost a sideline to keep very high end CNC stuff busy between serious high end gigs as I understand things. There is an old joke about a watchmakers apprentice who goes to get a job at a local machine shop in lean times. After the oral interview with the foreman, he is taken on a shop tour. The foreman sees him gawking at a guy tapping a 1/4-20 hole. When asked "What's with you? Never seen a tap before?", the apprentice replies "Sure, thousands of times. I just never knew you could get them in such huge sizes!" Stan ------- Date: Tue, 02 Oct 2001 02:20:37 -0700 From: S1 Subject: Re: Atlas Through Bore (Was Re: Atlas Price) [Q RE QUALITY OF ASIAN LATHES TODAY] Harbor Freight.com, Grizzly, and Enco are all decent places to buy these machines. They are all essentially the same machine no matter who "makes" them. My friend has one of these ans he says they aren't to bad. They are not a Gear-head Logan, or South Bend by any means, but if you are the only user, and you take care of it, it will last you a long time. The only complaint I've heard about these Asian 12X36 gear-head lathes are as follows: in industrial locations where these machines are sometimes used for mass production, the gear heads wear out much faster than a high-end machine. Unless you are in the Rifle-barrel business and have to mass produce barrels, these machines are just fine for us home users. I would take one of these Asian 12X36 gear-head machines over a used Belt-drive Southbend/ Logan/Atlas any day. The gear drive is a real time saver because there is no slippage (like in a belt drive system), allowing more stock removed per pass and/or faster carriage feed rates. Gabe ------- Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2001 22:36:47 -0400 From: "Carol & Jerry Jankura" Subject: RE: thinking about buying a sherline Shawn - It's difficult to answer your question since you've provided no information about how you plan to use the machinery. Is Sherline machinery robust - yes, for the money it is. Does it compare with industrial tools? Hardly; it's not really intended to. It's made from extrusions, aluminum castings, and some steel. The Industrial machines are made of cast iron and steel. But, the real information that you need can be offered only if you provide information about what you plan to do with the equipment and what size parts you'll be working with. For example, if you're into HO scale model railroading, I'd venture to say that there's little, if anything, that the Sherline mill and lathe cannot do. I'd further suggest that you purchase the 4400 "long bed" lathe in preference to the 4000 "short bed" lathe if you have the space, even if it looks as if your needs don't require it. I've found that sometimes the chuck and reamer I want to use take up enough space on the bed that, had I purchased the 4000 machine, I wouldn't have room. Another nice thing is that Sherline offers a pretty complete line of accessories compared to what's available from some of the other desktop tool companies. And, that line seems to be growing. Does the company take care of their customers? I can only answer about the treatment I've gotten from them. Courteous, timely, and no hassle. Every bit as good as the service I've received dealing with ShopSmith. Should I buy directly from Sherline? Well, you might get better pricing from some of their dealers. And just about every dealer has Sherline ship directly to the customer, so you'll not get any "old" stock sitting on a dealer's shelf. Look on Sherline's web site and then query some dealers directly. Discounts vary from perhaps 5% off list to perhaps 15% off list, sometimes more for the "Internet Special." Personally, I bought the tools themselves from a local dealer that had them in stock (The price wasn't as good as on the internet, but being able to touch and feel what I was buying was worth the extra price) and then bought the accessories over the net. Also, unless you already have a bunch of tooling, it's better to buy one of their "package deals" that provide the basics with the machines. I hope this helps you get started. Once you've decided on how you want to use the equipment, please post additonal questions. There are plenty of folks on this list more knowledgeable then me who will provide solid information. Jerry Jankura Strongsville, Ohio So many toys, so little time.... ------- Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2001 10:04:34 -0800 From: "Craig Libuse" Subject: Re: Advice request - Lathe Rigidity, Short Bed vs. Long. > I'm looking to buy a new Sherline - but I keep going back and forth > between the long and short bed versions. I don't think I'd often > need the longer bed - but I wouldn't mind the extra cost just in > case - as long as there's no "down side". Especially considering the > better spec'd "A" package on the long bed(IMHO). I've been wondering > if there's any wisdom out there concerning wether the short bed > is "stiffer" in any meaningful way you'd ever notice - particularly > when working harder material types. The additional equipment that comes standard on the long bed lathe (adjustable "zero" handwheels, rocker toolpost and larger chucks with the A package) more than makes up for the difference in price if purchased separately, so the extra distance is essentially free. If you like the extra features, the only reasons for not buying the longer lathe would be if you lack of available bench space or if the extra cost is a major factor. The cast base on the long lathe is taller in cross section than the shorter lathe which adds to the stiffness. A properly mounted longbed lathe should not exhibit any noticable difference in stiffness compared to the shorter version. I would predict that if you buy the long bed lathe and use it extensively, it will not be a month before you realize that you are doing a job that would not have been possible on the shorter one. On the other hand, if you only work on very small parts like many watchmakers and jewelers, you may never run into a job that requires more distance than the short bed lathe offers. One advantage of the short lathe is that you don't have to reach so far for the leadscrew handwheel. In short, if you anticipate you might ever have a use for even part of the additional 9" of center-to-center distance, the extra cost is well justified, assuming space is not a consideration. Lack of stiffness is not a problem. Craig Libuse Sherline Products ------- Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2001 10:36:49 -0800 From: "Yasmiin Davis" Subject: RE: Re: Advice request - Lathe Rigidity, Short Bed vs. Long. Just one other point -- if you only use the short section of the bed the long bed it will be as stiff as the short bed. Its only when you are using portions of the bed beyond the length of the short bed that the extra spring / twist come will come into play. Yasmiin ------- Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2001 18:51:21 -0000 From: jimknightonx~xxworldnet.att.net Subject: Re: Advice request - Lathe Rigidity, Short Bed vs. Long. This issue has pretty much been beat to death, but just to add my $.02, keep in mind that the lathe is a relatively light construction. I seem to recall a recent post about someone having bolted a long bed lathe to a warped tabletop and then discovered that the bed twisted enough that accuracy suffered noticably. I suppose both a short and long bed could suffer from this syndrome, but who knows? Perhaps the long bed (which I have as well) is more suseptible. There are lots of alternatives for a baseboard, but the Sherline literature discourages bolting directly to the tabletop. Personally, I used a 36" length of 10" aluminum channel (3.5" sides for stiffness and extra height). The channel had no warp or twist and was heavy enough to provide a very stable platform. It is also easy to drill and tap holes for accessories, setups, etc. Jim Knighton ------- Date: Fri, 17 May 2002 16:33:58 -0500 From: "Troy Burns" Subject: Re: Thinking of buying a taig lathe, who to buy from? P.T. I think they are apples and oranges. The Taig lathe is responsible for a lot of very fine work from a number of people, but it is not designed to cut threads. The Taig is more of a do-it-yourself project, with the customers able to buy kits, furnish their own motor, etc. The Homier 7X12 is a huskier tool altogether, is designed to cut threads, and will just handle heavier work. For the reasoning of an expert who has used a Taig but has bought a Chinese made Busy Bee (a Canadian imported 7X8 which is a shorter version of the Homier), see J. R. Bentley's website at http://www.jrbentley.com/ If you were to emulate Mr. Bentley's work with either lathe, you would go far. I have a Homier lathe and a Taig mill, and I like both of them. If I had a Taig lathe instead, I believe I would like it also; but not when I needed to thread something on the lathe. For the Taig dealer I can recommend my dealer, derfx~xxdovco.com. He is in Baton Rouge, but since the machines (at least the mills) are shipped directly from the factory, the dealer's location doesn't matter. Derf gave a lot of attention to my order and I received it much sooner than I expected, with no snags or foulups. I hope this has helped you decide. Troy ------- Date: Fri, 17 May 2002 19:22:53 EDT From: tadici283x~xxcs.com Subject: Re: Thinking of buying a taig lathe, who to buy from? As an owner of the Taig Lathe, Mill and 7x10 machine I can state that the Taig has a quality difference the China made lathe cannot equal, the China made lathe is a "kit" lathe, meaning it needs a lot of cleaning, modification, adjustment and cannot equal the Taig as far as fit, finish, it differs from the Taig "kit" lathe in the fact that it offers more features, is heavy built (80 LBS) can cut threads out of the box, has power feed and standard MT tooling, to get near this you would have to modify a Taig extensively as another member pointed out, a certain weak spot is the fact that the China made lathe has a troublesome motor. I have had to replace nearly every part from gears to circuit boards. I realize that this has varied from owner to owner. My Taig is powered by a treadmill motor with never a thought after it was installed. To sum up, the machinist will always modify their tools, you need to decide if the larger capability is what you need or great quality out of the box with the Taig; the Taig seems also to offer a greater amount of accessories as well. chris of Bradenton ------- Date: Tue, 28 May 2002 12:48:05 -0700 From: "Dee Schuyler" Subject: Re: Atlas vs Asian [POSTED TO ATLAS GROUP] Well now this is my opinion only, and quite possibly my Atlas a TH54 had seen a lot of hard use? But I bought a 922 Logan on ebay with a lot of tooling for a little over twice what I sold the Atlas for, $700 and it is, again in my opinion, three times the lathe! It has done everything I have asked of it! Without any problems. Now don't get me wrong I have seen a lot of great looking projects made on an Atlas lathe, but you asked for an opinion Dee ------- Date: Tue, 28 May 2002 19:55:06 -0000 From: "paul_probus" Subject: Re: Atlas vs Asian I guess I am in a unique position. My dad owns a 12x36 Craftsman lathe (Atlas). My dad and I have used it and it is a very adequate lathe for hobby use. I would think the 10" Atlas version of the lathe is more rigid, which I have not read any evidence to back this up I am only speculating since it is my understanding the 12" Craftsman version uses the same bed and ways (ie. the bed and ways are not beefed up for the additional 2" swing). Someday (probably sooner than I want, like after I finally get my shop built) I will probably inherit this lathe since my dad has not hooked it up after moving to a new house. With that in mind, I do plan on buying either Jet's 13x40 belt drive lathe or Grizzly's 12x37 belt drive lathe (as you can tell, I prefer belt drives which hopefully will provide some slip when I make a goof up). Are these imports more rigid than an Atlas lathe? I can't answer because I have not seen these particular models, but I have seen HF's 12x36 gear head lathe at their Richmond store and it appeared to be a very rigid lathe, but I have not used one to be sure that they are more rigid than an Atlas lathe. As far as used lathes, Logan, Shelby, South Bend, Hendey, Hardinge and many others are supposed to be very rigid lathes. I can attest to a '20's era Hendey and a '60's or '70's era Hardinge lathe. The 12x5 (that's 5', equivalent to a 12x36" lathe) Hendey my dad owned, until he moved, was very rigid. The lathe bed and ways were probably just downsized in length from a 16" or 18" swing lathe of a much longer length. I remember the ways being very wide in comparison with all the other lathes in that size range that I have seen. The only problem that that lathe had, and it was more my dad's ignorance than a problem with the lathe, was that we must have had the original leather belt. It would slip when taking deep cuts that would have been OK on the Craftsman lathe. My dad could not think of anyone who would sell replacement belts for the lathe (he did not think the ones in McMaster would work, for some reason). The Hardinge HLV-H lathe I had access to at my last employer. It is about the same size as the Craftsman in swing and ways width (11" swing, only 18" between centers, though). It was a very rigid lathe and could easily take heavy cuts (compared to the Craftsman and Hendey). The only problem, other than short between centers length, was that there were no back gears. I do remember slipping the belts once because of no back gears, of course it had old belts and that could have been the cause too. The ultimate decision is yours, though. Either lathe (old USA made or new Asain made) will require some work. The Asain lathes typically only require some cleaning. For a good article on the Asain made lathes, find the last issue of Home Shop Machinist. Steve Chastain talks about his Enco 12x36 Gear head lathe. Paul ------- Date: Tue, 28 May 2002 22:40:45 -0000 From: "latheplaya" Subject: Re: Atlas vs Asian I have a HF 7X10 Minilathe. For what I paid >$330, delivered, it was a good value. But, for precision work, it's a little lacking. I made a good "attachment" for my Ruger Mark II with it. The Homier 7X12s are going for $299, I think. If you want small and precise, TAIG is the way to go. I just bought an Atlas 10-F that needs restoring. Patience is the name of the game. I've seen nice Atlas lathes go on ebay for >$1000. A newer Atlas/Clausing 12X36, I think, recently went for $3500+, though. Ebay is perfect for finding things (like lathes) that you would only see once in a lifetime otherwise. But, don't fall into the bidding trap. Decide what it's worth to you, and bid that amount as close as you can to the auction end. You can also find the mid size 9X20 Asian lathes at HF for $700 or so. They often offer free shipping and the 9X20s come with steady rest, follower rest, QC gearbox, etc. But, most of all, talk to someone who has owned whatever you are looking at and get an informed opinion. Cheers, Derf ------- Date: Tue, 28 May 2002 15:39:52 -0700 From: Rick Kruger Subject: Re: Atlas vs Asian As with so many things, it depends. I think a lot depends on the condition of the lathe and its features/tooling. There are primo lathes of any type and there are clunkers. A new asian is less likely to be a clunker due to use, more so due to design or manufacture, by comparison, IMHO. I have all three, a 10F x 36 Atlas, a South Bend 9 Model x36 (both 54" beds), and a Grizzly minilathe 7x12. Even tho the minlathe is the newest, the SB is by far the best machine of the lot, largely due to its condition and tooling (Model A = QC gear box, list of tooling worthy of gloat). The Atlas is just so-so, being older, more worn, looser, noisier and lesser in features (change gear, small dials, leadscrew drives power feed as well as threading). The only thing the Atlas has over the SB is a milling attachment, but since I have a milling machine, that is moot. From my biased perspective, I'd say SB is a better machine. If I had a clunker SB and a primo Atlas, it'd probably be different. (I do have to say, tho, irrespective of their relative conditions, I do like the feel and operation of the SB over the Atlas.) As for the Grizzly, it was my first and only lathe for a year, then came the Atlas, which never really got used except when work wouldn't fit the 7x12, then 5 months ago came the first of two SBs. I put a lot of work into improving the Grizzly due to its design, construction and manufature, to where its a decent machine now. However, I hardly touch the Grizzly anymore, except for second operations where I don't want to disturb what's in the SB. But, I wouldn't give it up, whereas, I am trying to sell the Atlas. (That may not be a fair comparison, tho, as the Atlas is duplicative of the SB in size/capacity; the Grizzly is a different sized machine.) All that said, I have done as precise of work on the Atlas as I have on the SB and given more attention, its operation could be significantly improved, but it will never be as good as *this* SB. So, its back to it depends. A lot depends on your needs/uses for a lathe and your budget. I think it's more on the order of *$3,000* that most of us don't have in our home shop budgets to spend on a single machine (not $30,000 - I don't even have that to spend on a car). That substantially restricts our choices and increases the need to be smart and selective, and work your way up to where you want to be, whatever brand of machine. That was long winded, hope it is helpful. Rick K. Portland, OR ------- Date: Tue, 28 May 2002 16:35:26 -0700 From: Jay & Anne Greer Subject: Re: Atlas vs Asian Well, I guess it's kind of asking if a fellow would marry the same girl again after years of togetherness! I got my first Atlas over thirty years ago and learned to appreciate it for it's simplicity. I like it so well that I just bought another and now I have two. I am a conservator and a clock and watch maker. The 6inch Atlas lathes I have suit my needs very well and can produce work within .001-.0025" I also have a German Boley lathe for very fine work. I hear that some of the lathes made overseas need a lot of fussing and tinkering to get them right. If you don't mind tinkering with an old lathe at a reasonable price I'd say go for the Atlas unless you are going commercial. Then I'd go for a good domestic product. Best regards Jay Greer/AIC ------- Date: Tue, 28 May 2002 19:36:14 -0400 From: Art Eckstein Subject: Re: Atlas vs Asian Woof, Woof! Most definitely I would spend the money that I did for my 1974 12" Atlas, QC, 4 jaw, face plate, and a bunch of tools and "stuff". Based on the the things I do with the lathe, and the accuracy that I get, it was well worth it. I have heard to many stories about the imports with their quality control. You almost don't know what to believe. Yes, I bought a Rong Fu mill/drill and I lucked out. BUT again I have seen to many horror stories about the units that had to be torn down and re-assembled in order to be functional units. The BIGGEST improvement made to my unit was the block style (homemade) tool post that the PO made for the lathe. There are times I have to switch back the lantern style post for certain tools and I HATE that as there is always tool chatter and lousy finishes. Like you, I did not have $30,000 to spend and this lathe is more than adequate for my needs. As a side note, this lathe, replaces my 1929 Southbend Junior 9" that I bought at "scrap metal" prices. ------- Date: Tue, 28 May 2002 19:54:35 -0500 From: "Koepke, Kevin" Subject: RE: Atlas vs Asian After working with a 15" Clausing/Colchester lathe and a Bridgeport series 'I' mill, in a small mockup and model shop for 15 years, I know what good machines and tooling are all about. But I didn't have the money or the room for these at home. I purchased a TH42 Atlas and all the items needed to rebuild it from e-bay, and members of this fine group. All together, I spent about $1800.00, and that includes both 3 & 4 jaw chucks, a 3AT collet adaptor w/collets, a tailstock chuck, Jacob's headstock chuck, tool room taper attachment, milling attachment, steady & follow rests, and a quick change. This was not my first Atlas. I rebuilt a 618 in the mid 80's, and a V42, which I rebuilt and gave to my Dad after I had purchased the TH42 (OK, I thought the QC should go on a Timken bearing head). So, I was aware of the type of quality I could expect from an Atlas. Rebuilding the lathes gave me a sense for what I could do with them, and how to repair and maintain them, and also saved me a bunch of money. Like others have stated, these are not production machines, but it's all I need for the home shop, and occupies a corner of my meager 22 square foot shop (a garage is where you park cars, alright?), along with a 4 x 6 bandsaw, and homemade sheetmetal brake (the rest is stink'n woodworking tools). This lathe is capable of producing anything that is fit for its size, with patience being the only thing required, from its production brethren. I think it's time for that Rockwell Mill... let's see... it could go in my... kitchen??? Kevin 'Kitchens, where all good lathes are rebuilt' "Honey, where's the toaster?" ------- Date: Wed, 29 May 2002 02:01:18 -0000 From: "grandparont" Subject: Re: Atlas vs Asian "The test of the machine is the satisfaction it gives you. There isn't any other test. If the machine produces tranquillity, it's right. If it disturbs you it's wrong until either the machine or your mind is changed. The test of the machine is always your own mind. There isn't any other test." Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance ------- Date: Wed, 29 May 2002 05:17:10 +0000 From: Jon Elson Subject: Re: Atlas vs Asian I might try to find a slightly better machine than the Atlas (SB, Logan, etc.) These CAN be had, if you will accept a bit of wear, or rough appearance, and have patience. I would not go with the new Asian imports, unless I already had a relationship with the importer, and knew that parts would be available when I might need them. I had a 10" change-gear Atlas some years ago, and ran the carriage into the tailstock under power feed. The reversing gearbox and change gear bracket were smashed to bits. This was some 50 years after the lathe was made! I could have bought the parts from Clausing, but they were expensive. I could have bought the parts from a used source, but they were still somewhat expensive. What I did, instead, was to upgrade the lathe to a QC for just a hundred dollars or so more than the exact replacement parts. One of the best mistakes I've ever made, as it turned out. It was an expensive lesson, but not a disaster, and I got a better machine out of it. Now, on that asian import, let's see you get parts even TEN years later! I've heard sob stories about import lathes that didn't run well when delivered, and after some weeks when the owner had properly diagnosed the problem and went back to the importer, they waited months and then were told that the needed parts were no longer available! I don't know if these storiesare literally true, but I have read what appeared to be first-person reports of this at least twice on R.C.M. Jon ------- Date: Wed, 29 May 2002 02:11:14 EDT From: tadici283x~xxcs.com Subject: Re: Re: Atlas vs Asian I have used the Smithy and I own the Shoptask for aprox 6 years, they are good machines and will most likely do what you need of them, I find the Shoptask to be a bit beefier and it is quite heavy-about 700 lb. mostly seems in the Lathe portion. I own an atlas 10f 54 and I like it a lot, my opinion of it though is that it is a bit flexible, the carriage is not as heavy as I feel it should be, the slide too thin on the toolpost end and has a lot of unnecessary vibration, and is a "light" gage lathe. One must state that despite all this it is 50! Years old so that is a tribute to its long lasting ability. These lathes were loved in the auto repair business especially when refinishing arbors for starters and alternators; they found their way into many hobby venues as well. If considering an asian lathe consider the shoptask since it is cnc certified and graded as light industrial lathe. Mine can swing 16" and has a rather large table. All castings are quite solid and feature dual inverted "v" ways. Setting them up for cnc is very simple. This machine offers another advantage in that you can run the mill and use the powerfeed to the table. It is not a logan or other high dollar two ton machine made in the us but a meet me half-way lathe that is well made but still needs some adjusting. This is strictly my own opinion and I do not deal with selling any machine. Chris of Bradenton FLA. ------- Date: Wed, 29 May 2002 16:20:37 -0000 From: "paul_probus" Subject: Re: Atlas vs Asian Jon: It seems from your opinion that the only machines worth owning are those that replacement parts can still be had. Well, that would narrow the list of used lathes down considerably. I'm not familiar with all the manufacturer's of machines over the years, but it seems you are limiting the choices to SB, Logan, Atlas/Clausing, Hardinge, Myford (which is not in this class of 12" lathes) and a handful of others. Many of the other good names, new parts cannot be had for, such as Sheldon, Delta, Hendey, many others. There are a lot of people out there who are making their own repair parts for these orphaned lathes, therefore there are some people who see merit in these orphaned lathes. Now, repair parts for Atlas, Logan, SB, etc. Are the accessories included, such as fixed and steady rests and other accessories originally offered by these manufacturers at the time the lathe was made? While I would think SB probably still makes them (their new 10" manual lathe looks identical in the pictures to their '50's vintage units), I'd be surprised if Clausing and Logan still offer them for their older lathes. I'm not saying you're wrong about the imports, one of the first letters to the editor I read in HSM was about someone who could not find replacement parts for his Griz. lathe despite Griz. still using the same model #. I would recommend anyone who buys a new asian import (actually any new lathe, including Sherline, Taig, etc.) to buy as many accessories for that lathe the manufacturer offers within the first year of ownership to keep from losing getting orphaned on the accessories that are specific to that lathe, repair parts would still be orphaned. However, like the old USA made lathes, if you need repair parts and they are not available, you are going to have to either make the parts, try to repair them as best as possible or cast off the lathe and get another one. As far as fixing up the imports, yes you do occasionally find casting sand where it should not be and an occassional broken part (mostly damaged in shipping), but most of the imported lathes need little more than a complete teardown for cleaning and aligning and they are ready to work. The 7x12's are especially highly regarded. Used American lathes, and there are lathes with little wear, just rebuilt, etc. to be had, but most of them will require a similar tear down for cleaning, at best, a complete rebuild at worst. Granted a $150 '30's 12" Craftsman that is worn out and no accessories is better than a $3000 new asian import that you are $2850 short of ever being able to buy (ie. any lathe is better than no lathe). In the used USA vs. Asian machines debate goes, both sides are right and both are wrong. It depends on what you want to use the lathe for and how much time you want to put into making it do what you want to do. There is nothing wrong with fixing up an old USA lathe, but then there is nothing wrong with buying an imported lathe. Paul ------- Date: Thu, 30 May 2002 18:48:38 +0100 From: Tony Jeffree Subject: Re: Re: First lathe: Taig or Asian 7x12 30/05/2002, you wrote: >The TAIG on the other hand has very simple well thought >out statements on the set up of the machine. >this would point me to the TAIG as a better firts time machine. >and if/when you step up to a bigger lathe you will most likely still >turn to the smaller one for smaller projects! That is my personal experience. I now have a Myford as well as my Taig, but the majority of my work is still done on the Taig. Regards, Tony ------- Date: Thu, 30 May 2002 18:42:16 -0700 From: Dave Martindale Subject: Taig vs. 7x12 Another thing worth considering is that the Taig seems to be more forgiving of being overloaded. The Asian 7x10/7x12 lathes have an electronic speed control (which is really nice to have) running a DC motor which then drives the headstock via a belt and plastic gears. (I don't know the precise arrangement; I don't actually have one). If you get metal swarf into the controller electronics, you can get large sparks and a non-working controller. Or if you overload the lathe, something may break - either electronic or mechanical. If you read the Yahoogroups 7x10 archives, you'll find many examples of people with blown MOSFETS, blown fuses, controllers that don't work, broken gears in the headstock, and so on. In comparison, the Taig just doesn't have much to break. Overload it and the belt is likely to slip. If you manage to keep the belt from slipping, you might be able to stall the motor, but this won't cause any damage to an induction motor (provided it doesn't stay stalled). If you use a DC motor and variable-speed drive on a Taig, it becomes vulnerable to some of the same issues as the Asian lathes - but there still aren't any plastic gears to break. You should also be aware of the difference in "horsepower" ratings of motors. The Taig is usually powered by a 1/4-1/3 HP induction motor, and these motors are rated to produce that power continuously. The DC motors used in the Asian lathes are rated something like 1/2 HP, but that's peak output that they wouldn't be able to sustain for more than a few seconds. The continuous rating is probably 1/16 to 1/10 HP. None of this means that an Asian lathe is "bad", but it's certainly different from the Taig. Knowing what the differences are can help you decide which is for you. By the way, you should also be looking at a Sherline lathe. It's similar to the Taig in that it should be ready to use out of the box, but it comes with a DC motor and speed control (better quality than the Asian lathes). It also has a leadscrew and conventional tailstock with a ram, like the Asian lathes, and there is a thread cutting accessory. Plus there are many Sherline accessories that have no Taig counterpart. But the lathe and all the accessories are more expensive than the Taig. Dave (Who's also trying to decide which one to buy) ------- Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2002 00:21:48 -0000 From: "jeastwoodlm" Subject: Larger lathe via "accessory" I've been meaning to post a short description of my solution to "love the Sherline, but wish I had something a little larger" problem. What I did was buy a $350 accessory that extends my available swing to allow turning diameters up to 7". No, it's not riser blocks. What I did was buy a 7x10 mini-lathe. I consider it an accessory rather than a replacement for the Sherline for several reasons: 1) The Sherline is my principal lathe; I go to the 7x10 only when I need somthing larger machined, or if I have something chucked up on the Sherline and for some reason need to do some turning on another part. (For instance, my wife needs something done while I'm in the middle of a part for my latest steam engine.) 2) The 7x10 uses MT3 and MT2 tapers for head and tail stock; I have no intention to get a complete set of tooling/accesories to fit these. However, I've found a cheap MT2 to MT1 adaptor available from MSC, Travers, et. al. Quite useful. 3) The length of the 7x10 is quite a bit less than my 4400. There is a wealth of info on the 7x10 in various forums such as this one (type "7x10" into the Yahoo groups search field), and lots of web pages. I depended on these resources to make my decision on whether to risk even $350 on a cheap import. The conclusion I came to is that you get a useable lathe, but one that may need a bit of tweaking to get the best performance it's capable of out of it. Lots of people have bought these and done lots of useful work, and I find that's true for me too so far (I've had it almost a year now.) So: I'm still a loyal Sherline-ite to the core. Calling the 7x10 an accessory assuages any feelings of guilt :-) but is also in fact the way I use it. ------- Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 20:57:16 -0400 From: "John Guenther" Subject: RE: Larger lathe via "accessory" I made an adapter for my Grizzly 7x12 to allow the use of my Sherline accessories, including 3 and 4 jaw chucks, drill chucks, end mill holders, face plates and all the #1 MT tooling I have for the Sherline. What I did was turn up a piece of 12L14 steel on the 7x12 to fit the spindle just like the supplied 3 jaw chuck one does. I then mounted it on the 7x12 spindle and turned the front down to the same size as the Sherline spindle nose. I purchased a #1 MT reamer and reamed the internal taper. I made sure the 2.165 diameter recess on the back of the adapter was a close (snug) fit on the 7x12 spindle to ensure proper alignment upon removal and reinstallation. I will post a picture in the Photos section and could make a drawing available if necessary. I agree that the 7x12 is not a replacement for the Sherline, but given that there are NO affordable new American made lathes available in the small sizes for home shops, these ain't too bad. They do require some work to make them better, but they are useable out of the box after you clean them up and adjust them. Before everybody gets on Sherline's case about a larger lathe, I don't think they can manufacture one in the United States to the current standards that would be affordable to most home shop users. I work on my 7x12 as if I were working on my Sherline, and to that end I get good results by working within the capabilities of the machine, just as I do on my Sherline equipment. John Guenther Sterling, Virginia List Owner. ------- Date: Fri, 09 Aug 2002 22:59:02 -0400 From: Stan Stocker Subject: Re: Atlas vs. Southbend [atlas_craftsman] reddogracingf500 wrote: > Between a Southbend and Atlas, which, assuming similar wear in used > condition, will be able to produce the most accurate parts? What > would the approximate gap in precision be? Any replies appreciated Assuming you are comparing a SB 13 with an Atlas 12, or an Atlas 10 with an SB9, here's my take on them. For what it's worth, I have a Taig, an SB Workshop C 9" x 3 1/2 ft, an SB 13" X 7 ft, and an Atlas/Craftsman 12" with a 54 inch bed. The South Bend is a bit stiffer, and in the long run is a better machine. The down side is that finding a 12 or 13 inch swing SB in good shape with a ball bearing spindle will be tough, and it will cost a lot more. I have an Atlas 12 I'm restoring, they are kind of neat, but the bed is lighter and more flexible and the gears for the most part are Zamac rather than steel. Fine feed on the Atlas is via the half nuts rather than via a worm driven by the leadscrew keyway. This bothers some people, but the same method is used on the SB Workshop C, so I'm not put off by it, although it isn't my first choice in how to do it! The ball bearing spindle is nice to have, the solid bearing SB lathes are limited to around 700 to 1000 RPM as a top speed, a bit slow for carbide on smaller work pieces. A big plus for Atlas is that Clausing has many parts available, and the parts (and lathes) are far more affordable than parts from LeBlond (who now has the SB spares business) or on the used market. Either lathe can do perfectly good work, hell, I did work to tight tolerances when I had to (better than 2 tenths, but it was darn hard as the machine sucked) on a Chinese 9X20 until I got my SB9. When the oportunity came along to grab an Atlas 12 inch swing lathe with a top speed of 2700 RPM complete with all the gears, I jumped on it! The fact that it wasn't a South Bend didn't phase me at all. Assuming a lathe of reasonable quality, correctly setup and in proper working order, the end results depend a heck of a lot more on the person in front of it than the name on the makers plate. If it's a precision lathe your are chasing, you'll have to jump up to SB toolroom model A series lathes (rare and big bucks if clean), or start looking for clean lathes from Hardinge, Clausing Colchester, or Rivitt. By precision lathes, I'm talking the kinds of lathes that hold to a tenth or better day in and day out in the hands of a person who can work to tenths. Naturally, you're talking lathes that weigh thousands of pounds, and cost serious money. If it's holding to a thou or two day in and day out, either Atlas or SB can deliver that with no problem at all. Happy shopping, Stan ------- Date: Fri, 9 Aug 2002 22:34:40 -0500 From: "jerdal" Subject: Re: Atlas vs. Southbend > Between a Southbend and Atlas, which, assuming similar wear in used > condition, will be able to produce the most accurate parts? What > would the approximate gap in precision be? Any replies appreciated. I would say that the SB is CAPABLE of a better finish and possibly better precision due to not having roller bearings. Not to say that you will get it in reality, that is due to your skill. There are other inputs to the equation, such as wear, settability, adjustments, etc. A badly set up SB is not as good as a well wet up Atlas. The plain bearing is in the ultimate analysis better than the class of roller bearing employed in the Atlas machines. Better class bearings are capable of very good finishes and precision, as per Monarch etc. Many of the smaller very precise machines have always used plain bearings, however. Virtually all watchmakers lathes were plain bearing, also. Jerry ------- Date: Fri, 09 Aug 2002 23:54:08 -0500 From: Jon Elson Subject: Re: Atlas vs. Southbend Umm, not a great deal of difference, assuming the SB is one of the lighter models. The biggest difference is the design of the ways. The Atlas uses flat ways, and the edges of the ways are used to constrain the carriage to travel in a straight line. If there is looseness in the fit, a 5-6" micrometer or even a good dial caliper can measure the wear in the front-back edges, and a regular 1" mike can measure the vertical wear of the ways. On a SB, this is a lot harder to measure, as the inverted-Vee ways can't be measured in any simple way. The SB ways tend to retain their accuracy over a longer time, as the carriage will always follow the Vee way, whereas an Atlas will develop free play between the front and back edges. But, the Atlas is a LOT easier to measure for wear (thereby preventing you from buying a badly worn bed) and it is also much easier to regrind or hand scrape with simple tools. I have done extremely fine turning and toolpost grinding on things that needed such precision with an Atlas/Craftsman 12" lathe that was in fine condition. I think that the late 12" Atlas/Craftsman was a pretty good lathe. The 10" and early 12" with the 3/8" bed ways was noticably lighter in a number of areas, and I much prefer the late 12" machine. The compound slide was probably the weakest link of the 10" machine, it was just too flexible. A good set of roller bearings, properly installed and preloaded, can run VERY smooth. I have a late-model 12" Craftsman lathe in fine condition. I have done some grinding using a toolpost grinder, which will show up any imperfection in the lathe. I can clearly see a little pattern in the finish from the keyway in the leadscrew causing the carriage to wobble just a tiny bit as the grinder makes a fine pass down the part. But, I can't find any hint of pattern from the spindle bearings. When making fine finish turning with a sharp tool and fine feed, I might expect some pattern to show up, but I think your bearings have to be pretty rough before that becomes an issue. > The plain bearing is in the ultimate analysis better than the class > of roller bearing employed in the Atlas machines. Better class bearings > are capable of very good finishes and precision, as per Monarch etc. > Many of the smaller very precise machines have always used plain > bearings. Virtually all watchmakers lathes were plain bearing. I can well believe that a journal bearing can absorb impacts and vibrational energy better than a roller bearing, and that damping may be why people talk about this. One of the risks with journal bearings is that they are easily damaged. It doesn't take long running without oil to sieze up one of these bearings, while the roller bearings can run nearly dry all day. Anyway, it is a lot easier to replace the roller bearings than to repour and scrape in a Babbit bearing! Jon ------- Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2002 17:30:11 -0700 From: Wm. Dubin Subject: Re: Lapsed machinist... Jon: One of the reasons you don't see many complaints re: Sherline, is because the tools are nearly (not totally) but nearly perfect IF you accept their size restrictions. I've used a long bed lathe and the 2000 mill, both with DRO for close to 4 years, and thats with nearly daily useage. In that time, my only complaint was that the tools wern't bigger. Even then, I've found I could push the mill FAR past its apparent size restrictions. My biggest single problem has been with needing a Y-axis lock on the mill. Discussing this with Craig, he pointed out a sketch in the machinists hints area, even went so far as to build the lock himself to be sure it would work. Problem solved. You will be FAR happier with 2 seperate machines if you can afford both, and the great advantage of Sherline over most other's, is the huge range of tooling, which is interchangable for both. As to Sherline (the Co.), and the people behind it, i can only recommend you try the Prazi importer to get an idea how good Sherline really is. For a better lathe in the Sherline size, you might check the Lorch, or one of the other 40K priced machines. Sure, they are way better, I've seen pictures of one using a television to blow-up whats being worked on (a contact lense)..... but this gets absurd. Your next step, in size, would be Myford. hope this helps. Wm. ------- Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2002 02:29:53 +0000 From: SmittysSpeedWorksx~xxattbi.com Subject: RE: Lapsed machinist... Here is my 2 pennies worth... I also would like a larger through bore on the lathe, but cost is always a factor. Drawbacks to the Sherline, for it's size and price, I really cannot mention any concerns that I have encountered. Most of my work is done with 6AL-V4 Titanium, and both my Lathe and mill handle it with great results. I have, at times, taken up to .020 on the lathe with a good carbide bit. I would like to see a "Y" axis positive stop, thinking about my own idea for this, but for the most part, I have no regrets at all. I started out with a Lathe with the Mill conversion, was great for awhile, but really needed the mill. If you have plans for Milling work, GET THE MILL, it will save you time in setup, and money if you consider your time. One last thing, I sent in one of my DRO boxes, cause it would stop reading when using the "X" ot "Y" axis, and in order to get it to read again, I had to move both axis at the same time, no good. They (LOUIS) could not duplicate the problem, so they sent me a new unit. Now that is what I call OUTSTANDING service. Smitty ------- Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2002 11:57:06 -0000 From: "shindin" Subject: Re: Lapsed machinist... Only thing that has ever been any problem (given the size of the machine, and its intended use, which we have probably all pushed them past there, and still gotten good results. I know i certainly have) has been back-lash adjustment, which was operator error in my opinion, at least in my case anyway. This was early on. It is not a real major problem once you really "learn" the machine, and how to adjust it properly. On a note, as for customer service, i ordered most of my accy's directly from sherline. On one occasion, i needed the rotary mill vise base for a job with a deadline, and ordered it "2nd day air". When friday (the expected delivery date) rolled around and it didn't show up, i called sherline and asked about it. Even wound up talking to the same lady i had ordered from, sorry i can't remember her name, but she remembered me mentioning i had to have it by the weekend, and she apologized, and actually admitted having made the error by sending it standard ground! When's the last time you've seen that kind of integrity in that situation? Anyway, she sent me out another base, overnite, no extra charge, and i rcv'd it at about 10 am saturday morning. Our conversation was friday afternoon. Bear in mind, sherline is in ca, i am in ga, on the opposite coast. And yes, i did ship the first one back per our verbal agreement. Took me 2 weeks, and they never called me or bothered me about when i was going to get it sent back. I have bigger stuff now, but i still keep my sherline for the really small jobs that require super accuracy. No, it wasn't cheap, but it is certainly worth every penny it costs. Not to mention, it's really a "fun" machine to work with. Just a personal experience. Lennys/shindin ------- Date: Sun, 06 Oct 2002 01:56:13 -0000 From: "n2562001" Subject: Re: Opinions on a Levin Lathe Please [sherline] > From somebody with some real world experience, I would like to know an > opinion on this lathe. What is its fair market value, and what are > the pitfalls in buying such a machine besides the price of the > accessories. Even without real world Levin > use experience, I welcome your opinions (just not as much, ;-) ) > Thanks, Daniel J. Statman, Statman Designs www.statmandesigns.com Dan, Levin Lathe`s are very high qaulity and very accurate but are not very versitile or practical as a hobby lathe. They are at their best when setup to do one or two precise operation`s. Setup is similar to a jeweler`s lathe and is time consuming. If you are a meticulous machinist they are terrific for those occasional very small special projects. Value will depend on how bad you need or want one. The one or two used ones that I have seen for sale have been at about 25 percent of retail. What would you use the lathe for? Jerry Kieffer ------- Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2002 07:35:17 -0700 From: "Marcus & Eva" Subject: Re: Opinions on a Levin Lathe Please Hi Dan: Looks real cute, and all, but I don't think I'd spend a lot for it. If you want to do any amount of production, it's a poor choice. If it's an ornament and a toy for your shop, that's different. If you want a "real" producer for the kinds of stuff you've been doing but don't want to move into CNC turning, look at something like a Hardinge chucker. Has just as much "OOOHH" value, and has enough ponies to actually take a cut. Cheers Marcus ------- Date: Sun, 06 Oct 2002 15:06:23 -0000 From: "motoproto" Subject: Re: Opinions on a Levin Lathe Please Dan, just some anecdotal information FWIW. I attended an auction last spring where six or eight of these machines were sold in the $1800 to $2200 price range (each). The machines were in a swiss screw machine shop, and each was fitted with a 6 position tailstock turret, collet closer, and lever action slides. They appeared to be very high quality, and I'm sure they were quite productive when properly set up. Patrick ------- Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2002 12:04:05 EDT From: Area51tatsx~xxaol.com Subject: Re: Opinions on a Levin Lathe Please I disagree with Marcus about the reasons for not getting this lathe. Levin makes probably one of the best precision production lathes in the world right now. It is not intended to have "OOOHH" value and the type of work that is done doesn't need large amounts of HP. It is much more like a Schaublin then a South Bend. Both are considered to be the cat's meow but in different fields of machining. I have seen what Dan is making and I think this lathe would be a very excellent piece of equipment for his uses. Now if He just wants to do a bunch of blanking then maybe a chucker would be the ticket. Just my nickle's worth. Gerald Iowa ------- Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2002 10:56:22 -0700 From: Wm. Dubin Subject: Re: Re: Opinions on a Levin Lathe Please Dan, there are several other types of speciality lathes that might suit you better. Both are "antiques", but no reason they couldn't function for you. I've seen both on e-bay, and have a link to the seller (a large Co.). 1) a Rose lathe (with several variations on that theme) 2) a lathe that operates on the horizontal, and engraves designs onto the bodies of (old) fountain pens. Either should be easily adaptable for your purposes, and neither appeared to cost anywhere near a Levin. Wm. ------- Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2002 12:09:37 -0700 From: "Yasmiin" Subject: RE: Re: Opinions on a Levin Lathe Please I have a couple of these lathes. A Levin and a Derbyshire-- the other maker in the US still making these types of machines. They are great for their intended purposes. Keep in mind that most machines that are sold on eBay require a lot more stuff to be really useful and that stuff is very expensive. The machine that you are looking at is well priced but it will take another $1500 at bargain basement prices to tool it. Search on Levin in Metal Working and see all the other tooling for this machine that Reliable is selling separately. Regards, Yasmiin ------- Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2002 21:36:19 -0400 From: "Dan Statman" Subject: New Machine Question (was Opinions on Levin Lathe Please) Thank you for all of the Levin lathe replies, I will consider all of your suggestions and comments. I have another general machine question. I need a recommendation for a machine to do the following task. I usually have a 1" diameter solid bar of titanium that I need to pre-drill to about 0.700". I have been travelling to a friend's shop to do this work using several incremental drilling steps, but it is becoming a pain to travel and I would like something in my studio which can handle this. This is the only operation that I require of this machine, except it would also be nice to be able to bore the diameter with a boring bar so that I can fine tune and true the roughing hole. I am not looking for ultimate precision. My short list of requirements is a greater than 1.25" spindle through hole (would settle for slightly larger than 1" if I need to). Enough power to turn a 0.625" drill in titanium with a 1/2" pilot hole. Some sort of auto feed mechanism for a boring bar. 115V single phase power. Bed length can be as small as 12-15". Weight low enough that it is not a huge burden to move around. Does this machine exist? If so where? Thanks again for your input. Daniel J. Statman, Statman Designs www.statmandesigns.com ------- Date: Mon, 07 Oct 2002 08:15:38 -0000 From: "timgoldstein" Subject: Re: New Machine Question (was Opinions on Levin Lathe Please) Dan, what you really need is a chucker lathe for this, but you will not be able to move it easily. Your volume seems to be high enough that you could get this done very cheaply by a shop as a production job. Have a few hundred run at a time and you will be amazed how cheap it can be. Lots better than investing your own capital in a very specialized machine that will sit there doing nothing most of the time. I had a similar situation with some laser cut parts. Found a shop that would do them for $30/hr laser time plus materials. That rate is less than what I would want for my own time much less the capital cost of the machine and the wear, tear, and operating expense. Made it so buying the machine myself was just plain dumb. Tim [Denver, CO] ------- Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2002 08:15:39 -0700 From: "Yasmiin" Subject: RE: Opinions on a Levin Lathe Please Another lathe of this type that has every good a quality but which sells on the used market cheap is a Wade. I have but up a nearly competently tooled Wade for less than a $ 1000. If you keep your eye on Ebay you will see the various items come up. You can usually get the lathe for less than $ 500. Its capacity exceeds that of the Levin. It's still in production and US made. New it costs big time. http://www.wademachine.com/introo.htm Yasmiin ------- Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 22:40:42 -0500 From: "Carol & Jerry Jankura" Subject: RE: Re: Sherline vs Taig |I wonder how many people you'll find who've used both? Anyway, for |what it's worth: I've been quite happy with my Sherline model 5400 |mill. Quality and accuracy are high (it runs great out of the box). |My only complaint is running out of work envelope; you deal with this |by more thought up front about work holding and planning order of |operations. Ultimately I "cured" this complaint by getting a Prazi |mill about 30% larger than the Sherline. When I was choosing a machine, I looked at the Taig and decided against it. My reasons were: Although I bought a mill first, I had (in the back of my mind) the idea that the lathe function of the Unimat SL-1000 machines I owned would not suffice, so I wanted compatability between the lathe and the mill. Similarities between the two: 1. Both Sherline and Taig produce mills and lathes. 2. Both use compatible parts in their respective machines. 3. Both machines use a 3/4-16 thread on the headstock. 4. Both are small and light weight compared to the larger machines 5. Both are capable, within their work envelope, of turning out first-class work. 6. Both can be adapted to CNC if you wish. Taig offers a CNC version of their mill, while Sherline offers 'CNC ready' version of their products (Just add motors, drivers, and software). Sherline also offers a coupling kit for retrofitting CNC to one of their products that's already in the field. 7. Both have competent and friendly mailing lists on Yahoo. Differences between the two manufacturers: 1. Sherline's headstock bore will clear a 3/8 shank milling cutter; Taig's will not 2. Sherline's lathe uses a leadscrew for the 'Z' direction; Taig's uses a rack and pinion. This means that, out of the box, you can purchase a threading attachment from Sherline; there's no comparable accessory for the Taig. The 'ideal' 'Z' travel would be a leadscrew with some form of split saddle nut that allows you to release the cross slide saddle for quick movement. Neither Vendor offers this capability. 3. Sherline uses a DC variable speed headstock spindle motor; Taig uses an induction motor with stepped pulleys. Several Taig owners have adapted either a treadmill motor or Sherline's motor to their headstocks. 4. The Spindle tapers for Sherline and Taig are different, so accessories that fit INSIDE of the headstock bore are not compatible. 5. The Dovetails on the ways are different. Sherline's is about 55.5 degrees (a nonstandard); I believe that Taig's is closer to 45 degrees. This means that accessories that clamp to the ways are not directly interchangeable between the two. 6. Sherline offers a wider range of accessories than Taig. I believe that this point is important when you're working with machines whose physical size eliminates using a lot of the lower cost Asian import accessories such as collets, etc. 7. The Sherline lathe can be used as a vertical mill by purchasing a column, so the machine can be changed over from a lathe to a mill, much as the old Unimat. Taig does not offer a vertical milling column for their lathe. This may be important if money is limited and you wish to have both a milling and turning capability. 8. You can upgrade any of Sherline's older products to become their current product. I'm not sure of the ability to do this with Taig equipment. I hope this helps. Which ever machine/manufacturer you finally decide on, it appears to me that you'll be getting a decent machine that, if you take the time to learn all of its idiosyncrasies, will produce good parts for you. Jerry ------- NOTE TO FILE: Taig has a milling accessory to mount on the cross slide. It is arguably harder to use, and of less capacity, than the Sherline lathe accessory. But it might serve for small projects. ------- Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2002 09:52:24 EST From: tmwade4x~xxaol.com Subject: Buying advice Never buy a machine big enough to do all of your "occasional" jobs. My uncle's partner used to have a lathe with an 18" swing and a 12' bed. Yep, that's twelve FEET, not inches. It was at least 30 years old, surplus, and never been run. I have a Unimat SL, and have ordered a Sherline mill a couple of weeks ago. Hopefully, it will arrive soon. In doing my shopping, I discovered that my local "welding shop" which actually has a pretty good size machine shop, has at least five lathes for sale. At least one was available for under $500. Only trouble is that I don't quite have enough room in my spare bedroom for it, and my garage is not heated. But I also discovered that if you've got a smaller lathe, and once in a while you need to do a smaller lathe, many of the guys with the bigger lathes are happy to just let you use their lathe. I think I'd rather do most of my work on a good quality small lathe, than to do all of my work on a cheap Chinese lathe. Just my thoughts. Tom Wade ------- Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2002 10:09:24 -0800 From: Wm. Dubin Subject: Re: Re: Buying advice David, the H-F lathe s a total piece of junk... I doubt the Enco is that much better. The Sherline CAN be used as a 6" lathe by putting raiser blocks on it, however you seriously limit the depth of cut it can take, as the motor isn't all that powerful. If you decide to do Sherline, use the LONG bed lathe for this. I am also in San Diego. Write me off line if you have further questions. Wm. ------- Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2002 11:15:57 -0800 From: "David Goodfellow" Subject: RE: Re: Buying advice David: I have a H-F 7x10 lathe, and I disagree with Wm. I had a Taig lathe, and upgraded to the 7-10 so I could do work on a larger scale, and found that you could do just as good work on the 7-10 as you could with the Taig, which IMHO is on a par with Sherline, but slightly larger. My H-F 7x10 needed some cleanup and lubrication before use, but did nice, accurate work. I found that with both the Taig and the H-F, highly accurate work could be achieved through use of good "outside" tools on the final passes instead of the integral indexes. In appearance the Sherline is a Cadillac by comparison to the Asian lathes, but I found a more realistic criteria for me was the size of the work piece I expected to work on. The 7x10 (now mostly upgraded to 7x12) is sold by Harbor Freight, Grizzly, Homier, and a number of other distributers. Basically they are the same machine from one distributer to another, with a different mix of accessories, different paint jobs and different prices. Micro-Mark has come out with a 7x14 (which I now have) with cam-lock tail stock and spindle tach to go with its variable-speed motor. The jury is still out on whether these extra "goodies" justifies their price. As it happens, I like mine a lot. Dave Goodfellow Lancaster, CA ------- Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2002 13:28:16 -0600 From: "Matt" Subject: Re: Re: Buying advice I've got a 9 inch Southbend that would be at it's limits facing 6 inch round stock, I can't even imagine trying it with a Sherline (sorry guys) The Asian lathes that I have looked at should be considered an inexpensive "lathe kit", they don't seem to be a bad deal if your willing to put some time and effort into them, compare a 9 or 11 inch import's price with that of a new Southbend Heavy ten (or even a good used one) and I think you'll see what I mean, that said I would like to get a Sherline lathe to do the small stuff that my SB doesn't have the RPMs for. The ENCO, Grizzly, JET, and HF appear to be the same machines with different paint. See ya Matt Pierce ------- Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2002 12:55:34 -0800 From: Wm. Dubin Subject: Re: Re: Buying advice > I've got a 9 inch Southbend that would be at it's limits facing 6 inch > round stock, I can't even imagine trying it with a Sherline Matt, you are correct... and I wouldn't use my Sherline for anything over 3.5" dia. I looked for a "decent" Southbend, but most of what I found was in pretty sorry condition, and, as I have no need to 'restore' a lathe, I bought the 9" Jet... the cheapie model, but with my eyes open. It's used for face-plate work only (flywheels, etc), or using collets on larger stock for end work. This last required a chuck & the collets of course. Wm. ------- Date: Tue, 03 Dec 2002 09:03:46 +1100 From: "Charlie Lear" Subject: Re: Buying advice On Mon, 2 Dec 2002 09:52:24 EST, tmwade4x~xxaol.com wrote: >I think I'd rather do most of my work on a good quality small lathe, >than to do all of my work on a cheap Chinese lathe. Hear hear. It took two 918 lathes (one Chinese, one much better Taiwanese) to convince me of that. Right now I've got a 9" Hercus and a Sherline 4100 (and a 13" Weiler toolroom lathe in storage in New Zealand). The Sherline still gets used the most. Cheers Charlie Charlie Lear, Melbourne, Australia Hutt Valley Model Engineer Soc. http://steammachine.com/hvmes Eastern Bays Little Blue Penguin Foundation: same site /penguins ------- Date: Mon, 02 Dec 2002 16:08:13 -0800 From: "Orrin B. Iseminger" Subject: RE: Re: Buying advice I've never owned an Asian lathe, but here are a few of the things my friends and I have observed: On my friend's mail-order gap-bed lathe, the piece that filled the gap never fit correctly. When the carriage rode up over the joint, he would get a step-change in turning diameter. I've observed some feed screws to have Imperial dials with what appears to be metric lead screws. Each rotation of the dial advances the feed by 0.127" (IIRC) One can imagine what kind of arithmetic hassle that would be! Furthermore, that last thou on the dial doesn't appear to be exactly a thousandth. This will result in additive errors. One will often find rough castings as well as burrs along the edges of machined surface. Call it poor fit and finish. The electric motors are prone to failure. The centrifugal switch failed on a friend's machine. He got a free replacement, but it's the hassle. Similar problems crop up in equipment other than lathes. Although not directly related, the association carries over. Orrin ------- Date: Tue, 03 Dec 2002 00:35:04 -0000 From: "crankdisk" Subject: Re: Buying advice "Shun advice, at any price, that's what I call, good advice." -- Piet Hien Notwithstanding the above, here's my buying advice. When researching which lathe to buy, a friend who works here in the Navy machine shop classroom pointed out that his father uses a very cheap asian lathe to do small batch, high tech machining for research labs and the Canadian and US military. No kidding. I asked how he set up the machine to do this work and the explanation led me to go and buy a Sherline, because it takes real skill, knowledge, perseverance and good luck to make an asian lathe work well. I took my Sherline out of the box mounted a drill rod and found well under .001 errors (ie smaller than I could really measure). I have the milling column for the occasional bigger job (and all the little milling jobs of course). I will go and see one of my friends or a pro for the occasional big flywheel or other project. I do plan to get the step blocks when my piggy bank is filled again. For an occasional user and one who is looking at CNC down the road, I think you would be smart to look at the many things the Sherline does well, rather than the occasional thing it won't be able to do. No machine does everything. For what its worth! Bill ------- Date: Tue, 03 Dec 2002 11:48:36 +1100 From: "Charlie Lear" Subject: RE: Re: Buying advice On Mon, 2 Dec 2002 16:58:04 -0600, mark.brown2x~xxmed.va.gov wrote: >I spent more time adjusting the bandsaw than cutting with it. I can only >imagine the horrors you would find trying to use a poor quality lathe to >perform anything close to tolerance work. Here's a copy of a note I sent to another model engineer around two years ago. It refers to the Chinese 920 I bought. The Taiwanese 918 which replaced it was far superior in quality, but still required a lot of fettling before I was satisfied with it. Even then the headstock was out of alignment (transit damage) and in the end I sold it on ebay last year and bought a Southbend equivalent. (Funnily enough, given the last sentence below!) Mind you, the secondhand quality tool market isn't a bed of roses either - I detailed my experiences at http://steammachine.com/hercus Cheers Charlie P.S. Stan, just for a laugh I've dug out some old correspondence... 21 December 1996 Dear Sir, You will recall that I recently took delivery of a TP-920 lathe and accessories, after flying to Auckland specifically to view a range of machines in my price range. On installing the lathe, a number of minor design and manufacturing faults became apparent which were not obvious in my brief pre-purchase look at the machine. I was prepared to accept these as a compromise to be expected when buying at a low price point. I certainly did not expect perfection, and while I did not feel "done", overall the lathe did not give me the impression of excellent value that it had prior to closer inspection and use. Since my trip to Auckland, earning a living has effectively kept me out of the workshop except for the short period when I installed the lathe. I am now on leave, and I will spend as much time in the workshop as possible. I have purchased materials and have spent considerable time planning exactly what I will be doing in order to get my steam locomotive back on the track before I go back to work. Obviously the lathe is an integral part of my plans. Tonight was the first time I have been able to go out to the workshop and make some needed parts for the lathe. First up is a drawbar for the milling collet chuck I bought with the lathe. The first operation was to face a slug of 50mm dia mild steel. This was too big to hold in the 3-jaw and due to an intermittent cut I was not willing to use the external jaws. Off came the 3-jaw and I unwrapped and degreased the hitherto unused 4-jaw. The chuck would only screw on a couple of threads onto the mandrel before it became too stiff to turn. I took it off, checked and cleaned both threads again, and tried again. Same problem. Looking while holding the chuck close to the mandrel, I thought the threads didn't match. Tried putting the chuck on one more time, sure enough, one and a half turns on it got tighter and was jammed by two turns. I took it off and got out the rule. The 4-jaw chuck and faceplate are both 1 1/2" Whitworth, 8tpi, as specified in every brochure, advertisement and review I have seen of lathes similar to the TP920 - as it is also specified in the TP920 manual. The mandrel nose of this lathe is 38mm, 3mm pitch. There is absolutely no doubting the measurement. As roughly three quarters of the work I do on a lathe is in a 4-jaw or on a faceplate, the incorrect mandrel thread is a complete show-stopper. "Desperately unhappy" does not adequately describe how I feel at the moment. Time off from work is a luxury and the prospect of wasting my holidays staring at an unusable lathe does not excite me. I see three scenarios here. One, I am just really unlucky. Two, all the last batch of TP920s are like this and I am the first to find out this fault. Three, you already know about the problem and have measures in place to help me. I hope its the third. My phone number is [xxx]. I should be in all morning on Monday, and expect a call by lunchtime to discuss how we can work around this problem. Regards Charlie Lear ***-> Dear Sir, Thank you for your prompt response and resolution of the problem affecting my new TP920 lathe. While I am (understandably, I think) still peeved that the lathe has an incorrect mandrel nose thread, having matching chucks and faceplate renders it nowhere near as serious. I have enclosed the 1 1/2" 8tpi 4-jaw and faceplate, and the toolbox you sent down less the drill chuck (missing from the original kit). In the meantime, I'd gone out and bought a new 1/2" Jacobs and 2MT arbor. Such is life. I hope you and the guys up there have a happy and prosperous 1997. I'll probably drop in next time I'm in Auckland. --- And, of course, I can't find the letter where I finally lost my temper and told them where to stick it, along with a big list of the faults I'd come across. What broke the camels back was I needed to cut a 16tpi thread on an otherwise finished part, set it up, cut it, and it turned out to be 1.5mm pitch. Yup, it had a metric nose thread, a metric screwcutting chart, and an imperial leadscrew. The leadscrew was 60deg threads and not Acme, which made it worse... the halfnuts just refused to stay in, and would either jump out of engagement or else would lock themselves in place so that the lever couldn't be moved... exciting with the saddle racing towards the chuck! So, Stan, here's the question: Why do we persist in doing all this stuff, instead of tossing it in a dumpster and buying a second hand Myford or Southbend? Cheers Charlie Charlie Lear, Melbourne, Australia clearx~xxsteammachine.com Hutt Valley Model Engineer Soc. http://steammachine.com/hvmes Eastern Bays Little Blue Penguin Foundation: same site /penguins ------- Date: Wed, 04 Dec 2002 09:50:55 +1100 From: "Charlie Lear" Subject: RE: Re: Buying advice On Tue, 03 Dec 2002, Todd Fleming wrote: > Eeek! I was thinking of buying a used larger machine someday instead of one of the Chineese machines. It looks like either approach is just as risky. < Simple difference. Underneath the layers of grot on the Hercus/Southbend/Logan/etc there lies a quality machine. Even if badly worn they can be rebuilt to new or better than new quality. As you can see from my web pages, the vast majority of work I did on my Hercus was stripping and cleaning. You can also, as I did, spend literally years fighting with a crappy import machine and at the end of all your fiddling and fixing and spending and tweaking and rebuilding - you've still got a crappy machine. Some of us may appear to be really down on imports - not all imports are created equal, and there are some VERY good Chinese and Taiwanese machines, especially in the 13" and larger sizes. But you pay for quality wherever it comes from, and at the end of the market we're talking about - 7x10 and 9x18 lathes - they are built to a price and it shows in what comes out of the box. The underlying design quality of the 7x10 seems better than the larger machine - it is stiffer and rigidity counts. The first Chinese horror 920 cost me NZD$2000. The replacement Taiwanese 918, although to the same design, had a sticker price of NZD$3200. It was a FAR better machine in almost every way. But I still had issues with it and there was a law of diminishing returns as to the amount of work I was prepared to do to bring it up to scratch. Now having said all that, there are a LARGE number of people out there who buy the $399 special, nail it down to a bench out in the garage, and start turning out bucketloads of good work. They're the ones laughing at me right now. Good on 'em! I'm just not one of them. >Maybe I'll just limit myself to projects that fit on my Sherlines and stop thinking larger. < http://www.steammachine.com/millturn/ Don't think small. 8-) Cheers Charlie Charlie Lear, Melbourne, Australia clearx~xxsteammachine.com Hutt Valley Model Engineer Soc. http://steammachine.com/hvmes Eastern Bays Little Blue Penguin Foundation: same site /penguins ------- Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 13:25:32 -0500 From: Stan Stocker Subject: Re: Atlas or SB? HUNLEY31x~xxaol.com wrote: > All else being equal. Both serves the purpose. Which would you prefer? > Atlas 12" or South Bend 9" Looking for opinions. Should I sell my Atlas > 12" (change gear) and buy the South Bend 9" (quick change)? I'd just > about break even money wise. I don't need or want two lathes. Hank Hi Hank; The extra capacity of the 12 inch Atlas is a nice plus. Many SB lathes don't have roller hearing headstocks, so can't spin work as fast. Not an issue for larger work, but high speed sure is nice for smaller work or getting things done quickly. If you Atlas does good work and gives a good finish I'd keep it. I will admit to *liking* SB better than Atlas, but a 12 inch lathe with a high spindle speed is a nice thing to have! If you do a lot of thread cutting, the gearbox may be enough to swing the decision, although you might put out feelers and keep your eyes open for a gearbox for your existing lathe. If you do a lot of threading, don't need the extra swing (or distance between centers if you have a 54 inch bed), and the SB has a high enough spindle speed for your needs, then swap. If your lathe works well, you don't spend half your shop time changing gears, or need the larger capacity, keep the Atlas. Either make is capable of good work. I have 2 SB lathes (9" and a 13"X7'), a Taig, and an Atlas 12X54, so none of this is theoretical :-) I *like* the SB 9 better than the Atlas, I *like* the higher speed and capacity of the Atlas. The big old SB13 was a junker and now works pretty well, but it's the least used lathe in the shop, even though it has the gearbox. Cheers, Stan ------- Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2002 02:46:14 -0000 From: "seb fontana " Subject: Re: Atlas or SB? My 4 bits worth. I have a Atlas 10" with later QC retro'ed and a 12" with CG [change gears] and I like them for ease of maintenance/repair/rebuild..and swapping parts through the years of manufacture. Of course the QC is more convenient but I made a gear combination for the 12" CG so I reverse one set of gears and I have fine and course feed..the square bed ways allow set up and fabrication of all kinds of stuff cause no V's to get in the way; like 4.00" risers [on the 10"] for the head and tailstock to get larger dia swing, 18" for bulky item hole boring before I got a miller...3/4 hole thru can be a bummer but you learn to work around it [planning head for large bore spindle] and having to use the leadscrew for the feed makes for lotta wear in one area and causes problems with threading as leadscrew wears and creates variable pitch threads..you can get around this by making a bracket and mounting the halfnuts as far as necessary outside of the carriage to get to low wear area of leadscrew.. Seb. ------- NOTE TO FILE: Part of the ongoing argument as to whether a badly worn and/or broken and/or missing-parts western lathe beats an inexpensive but complete new asian lathe. Yes western quality wins at the professional shop level, but inexpensive and workable often wins at the hobby level. Those who have actually used the 7x lathes mostly seem very happy, and their websites prove excellent work can be done. You decide. ------- Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2002 03:23:29 -0000 From: "v45bob " Subject: Re: 6 inch lathe for sale What poor threading and speed ranges???? The 7x lathe can cut threads from 1 to 110 tpi with the supplied gear set. Metric threads span a similar range. The speed controller can be adjusted down to approx 40rpm and the top speed is approx 2500rpm. Besides it's relatively easy to make a 2:1 reduction setup/motor mount with a spare set of drive pulleys and a belt to reduce the minimum speed to half that. There is enough torque to take a 110 thou cut at a feed of 4 thou per turn at minimum speed on a 3/4" 6061 round with a flat topped tool ground for brass. It did trip the overload circuit after a few turns at 120 thou deep, just tested it. And at a retail of $299 from Homier its not a very expensive mistake and the warranty support from all the vendors is pretty decent. Bob ------- Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2002 06:57:03 -0600 From: "jerdal" Subject: Re: Re: 6 inch lathe for sale Well, this IS the Atlas forum, but I have to say that it appears the 7 x10 Asian machines are the better ones in many cases. The real dogs are the 8x 20 and 9x20 types, which seem to be small machines on stilts, with impossibly high minimum speeds, threading "issues", etc. They are made to "look just like" a real lathe. Many won't cut the thread that is on their own spindle. The 13x and 14x have the makings of decent machines, and are used daily in shops. Atlas was no prize when new, of course. It was "made to a price" with good but not complete features, etc, etc. Everything that is now said about Asian lathes (except maybe the fasteners thing) was probably said about those Atlas "toy" lathes too. Including the main fault of the 8x20 machines, being too light and floppy to do good work. Shows to go ya Jerrold ------- Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2002 11:06:54 -0500 From: "mertbaker" Subject: Re: 6 inch lathe for sale James, I've been using the Asian "junk" lathes for 3 or 4 years with no problems. Admit I've not used the top of the line European & Japanese machines, but I learned on SBs & LeBlonds, etc. Compared with what's available on the used market for 300 bux, the 7x machines are fantastic. My not-so-humble, well, OK, arrogant, opinion. Mert ------- Date: Tue, 24 Dec 2002 21:08:12 -0000 From: "tomdoyle123456789 " Subject: 2 Lathes for the price of 1 - almost I have enjoyed my Sherline 4500 short bed lathe for some time. I was planning on adding a few more Sherline accessory pieces - the compound slide, the threading adapter and the parts to increase the length of the bed. The total cost of these parts came to about $300. I had always been curious about the Homier asian 7x12 lathe which costs $300 and includes the compound slide, threading capability and a longer bed than my Sherline. Rather than invest in more upgrade parts for my Sherline I made the plunge and ordered the Homier 7x12 lathe. Much to my surprise it is a great piece of gear. It did take a bit of fine tuning and I added a full size quick change tool post but it now works great. Not sure which lathe I would sell if I had to get rid of one. With any luck I will be able to keep them both. There is a picture of my "2 Lathes for the price of 1" setup in the photo section. tom ------- Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2002 00:22:16 -0000 From: "jimknighton1948 " Subject: Re: Dumb Question From New User "texas_hoppy <"larry.reesex~xxc...>" wrote: > Why should I buy a the Sherline lathe over china import ? > The China import is cheaper. Larry, please forgive what might be construed as a cynical comment; it is not intended as such. Each machine has its strengths, weaknesses, and limitations. Also, each has both detractors and rabid fans. I've conversed with people who swear by the Asian minilathes and others who swear at them. I've also conversed with those holding Sherline equipment in the highest esteem and others who are terribly dissappointed that the lathe isn't a Hardinge toolroom lathe in miniature. Regardless, both Sherline and the Asian minilathes can be every effective and useful within their design limitations. If you are most concerned about minimizing cost, then your answer is obvious. While I haven't spent a lot of time with the Asian minilathes, what I've observed is that the fit, finish, smoothness and obvious quality evident in the Sherline product is simply not there. I do not doubt that in the right hands the Asian product is capable of producing good work. I have seen in my own shop that the Sherline is very capable right out of the box and also that with a little work it can be even more so. I continually run into people for whom $$$ is the only criteria by which "value" is measured. The issue for them is all about getting maximum functionality for the minimum cost. While this sounds emminently reasonable on the surface, there is an unstated assumption that clouds the issue. That assumption is that the outwardly similar tools are nothing more than interchangeable commodities. Unfortunately, this ain't necessarily so. I don't know anyone today who would seriously suggest that a Yugo and a Volvo of the same vintage are qualitatively equivalent. Regardless, the Yugo was inexpensive and that was sufficient in the minds of many consumers. I knew several people who bought Yugos when they were new. Not one of them today openly admits to having been so penny wise and pound foolish. I recently went the rounds with my brother on this point. He wanted an air compressor and while he could easily afford better he purchased a cheap unit from Harbor Freight. For months he was something of a boor (and also a bore) effusively waxing eloquent about his "great deal." Two days after the warranty expired his "great deal" began leaking oil, siezed up, and died. Suddenly this "great deal" appeared in its real light as a major league lemon that put a serious cramp in his style. He was seriously put out and (hopefully) learned an important albeit costly lesson. His next air compressor was a much more expensive unit from a well known manufacturer of quality industrial tools. My brother and I are perhaps unusual in that we actually use our tools extensively, and perhaps his Harbor Freight compressor was nothing more than an unfortunate anomoly. Regardless, this anecdote illustrates a lesson that most people have to learn again and again before it finally sinks in; there is more to "value" than $$$. Obviously, if you don't need the quality don't pay for it. If you do, or if you think you might in the future, once again your choice is obvious. If you need reliability, precision, and longevity it is highly unlikely that you will get it at minimum cost. There are people in this forum who are quite happy with their 25 year old Sherline brass bed lathes. Accesories and upgrades are readily available for these machines. Can the Asian minilathes make the same claim? The Sherline machines were built to last, and they do. Everything I've seen personally suggests that the Asian machines are designed and built to be the least costly machine tools available anywhere. They have certainly succeeded on that point, but at what cost? Their supporters are many and vocal having essentially built an active subcult dedicated to their promotion by touting these lathes as the inexpensive Volvos of the miniature machine tool world. This might be the case and time will tell. To me, however, they look a whole lot more like minimally functional Yugos and I'm not prepared to bet the farm on them being better than that. If the aforementioned qualities are important to you then perhaps the Sherline tools, or other thoughtfully designed and well built machine tools should be given serious consideration. Regards, JBK ------- Date: Sun, 02 Feb 2003 18:24:38 -0000 From: "ballendo " Subject: I prefer the 4000 was Re: lengthening a 4000 lathe [SHERLINE] Hello, I had an old sears Sherline 4000 (Brass bed) and loved it... Got a new 4400, thinking that long must be better... I hate it. (Compared to the short one, that is) The bigger one just isn't as "convenient". Your right arm gets tired hanging out there to move the saddle, whereas the 4000 "fits" between yer shoulders. It's heavier and tougher to store. So I thought I'd share that nowadays the 4000 gets 10 times the work that the 4400 does. But if you NEED the length, the 4400 certainly serves, and lives up to the Sherline name. Hope this helps, Ballendo -------- Date: Sun, 2 Feb 2003 13:35:10 -0500 From: "Dan Statman" Subject: Re: I prefer the 4000 was Re: lengthening a 4000 lathe I also have both the 4000 and 4400 lathes. I use the 4400 almost exclusively and I rarely need the extra length. I have had the 4400 for 4+ years and have been literally beating the crap out of it machining only 6-4 titanium. I never need real high precision because I am making artistic jewelry. I do not find the reach to be a problem on the 4400 handwheels, but I am 6'4" tall and must have broader shoulders than "Ballendo", ;-). I keep the 4000 for work that requires more time consuming set-ups and I just leave the set-up alone on the smaller lathe to go back to later. I try to keep the 4000 in better working condition wrt backlash and general cleanliness. I never use emery cloth on parts made with the 4000. I CONSTANTLY use emery cloth on the pieces created with and while still mounted on my 4400. This is very harsh on the machine, but so convenient that I just replace the wear parts every 6 months (saddle nut, leadscrew, cross-slide screw, etc.). I like them both, but I use the 4400 much more than the 4000. Daniel J. Statman, Statman Designs www.statmandesigns.com ------- Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2003 15:30:43 -1000 (HST) From: Tom Benedict Subject: Re: Taig or Sherline On Thu, 30 Jan 2003, n3bjh1 wrote: > Trying to decide which lathe is the Best for me to buy !!! > This is my first time working with metal ! I did some wood > working,but metal work is very fascinating to me > I also want to know if is a good book around or video to learn some > machinist skills !Taig looks very good to me and very afortable !!! As far as lathes go, a good place to start is to ask yourself what it is you want to make. It can be a tough question, and the answer may very well be, "Everything I can!" But it's still worthwhile to ask. Sherline tools are quite good, and I've seen excellent work done on them. They tend to be about twice as expensive as the equivalent Taig tools. One thing you get with a Sherline lathe, however, is a leadscrew. You can buy a Sherline attachment that lets you cut screw threads. It's all just bolt-together parts. Taig tools tend to be more robust than their Sherline equivalents. They're also made with T-slots all over the place, so they're very very easy to customize. Take a look at some of the customizations people have done and posted in the Files area, as well as on http://www.cartertools.com. One thing you don't get with a Taig is (you guessed it) a leadscrew. This means cutting threads on a Taig isn't something it will do right out of the box. But there are a number of aftermarket attachments that will let you do this. One of them, the Frog, is also available for Sherline lathes. Another alternative you might look at is the 7x10 Minilathe. They're available under a number of labels, but they all tend to be the same thing. Depending on who you buy from, the leadscrews may be metric or english. Be sure to check and get the one you want. The 7x10 lathes are quite robust, using iron castings where the Taig and Sherline tools might use aluminum. The 7x10 lathes also come with a leadscrew, and change gears are available for cutting a number of screw threads. What you don't get with the 7x10 lathes is fit and finish. Everyone I've talked to who bought one said it came out of the box in dire need of a tune-up. After the tune-up, however, they've all been pretty happy. Regarding thread cutting: You can ALWAYS cut threads using taps and dies. This is how I've done all of the threading I've done on my lathe. But you can't use this method to cut every kind of thread. A good example is filter rings for cameras. There's no die that would let me cut the right thread on the outside of a 58mm ring. For that you need some way to do single point thread cutting. Something else to consider at this point is the work envelope of each of these tools. Cutting steel, I'm limited to about 1" diameter. I can cut larger, but it would be very slow going. Cutting plastic, my lathe has enough torque to throw a 6" piece, using riser blocks. If you're envisioning turning metal things bigger than about 4" around or about 10" long, you might consider a larger lathe. As your first tool I would urge you not to buy an old machine. A lightly used tool that has been well cared for is one thing, but old iron is something else altogether. I had the good fortune to pick up a 10" shaper a little over a year ago. It's going to be a wonderful machine... once I finish refurbishing it. If you've got a workshop full of tools, an older machine with some wear and tear can be a real jewel in the rough. If this is your first foray into metalworking, that same machine may be an absolute chain and anchor. Buyer beware. If at all possible, find out if there's anyone near you who's got a Taig, a Sherline, or a 7x10. There are Yahoo mailing lists for all three. Ideally try to visit them and see all of them at work. If the owners are willing, see if they'll let you take each of them out for a spin. Tom ------- Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2003 23:21:06 -0500 From: Stan Stocker Subject: Re: Taig or Sherline Both the Taig and the Sherline are good tools. The Taig is made so that you can add all sorts of neat things to it as your needs or interests change. The Sherline motor is very nice, the variable speed is really a nice thing to have. Sherline costs more, accessories are more expensive as well. Sherline has a morse taper in the headstock (MT1), while Taig uses a proprietary taper. Taig collets are cheap but good. MT1 tooling isn't exactly falling off trees in any case, but some folks want a "standard" taper. Taig has no single point threading method supported by the factory. Sherline has a hand crank add on for threading. In stuff this size taps or dies usually work fine. If I wanted power feed and threading on either machine, I think I'd go with a Frog, which is a little CNC single axis controller. Kind of a neat little gadget. Sherline has the ability to rotate the headstock to do certain taper sorts of tasks, which is sort of neat. I have a variety of lathes, ranging from jewelers lathes on up to a 13 x 7 ft South Bend, and tend to use the Taig for things that will fit in it's work envelope. Take a cruise around Nick's site: http://www.cartertools.com and take some time to go through Sherline's site as well. You won't regret either tool, although the Sherline does have a somewhat higher price. Folks do good work on both brands. If you have a particular area of interest, folks around here might be able to offer a bit more specific advice. Cheers, Stan ------- Date: Fri, 07 Feb 2003 23:25:23 -0000 From: "jimknighton1948 " Subject: Re: About to get a lathe, would like advice on... [SHERLINE] John: Welcome to the world of small scale machining. For me, at least, it's an enjoyable and rewarding hobby and I dare say most in this forum agree on that point. For most people machining isn't an end unto itself. Rather, its the means to accomplish something else such as building models or pursuing some other personal or commercial interest. When getting started it really helps to have some notion of how you plan to use the equipment. That way you can plan ahead and anticipate what accessories, etc. you are likely to need. Unfortunately, it doesn't always work that way and that wasn't the approach that I followed. In my case I first found myself thinking about all the stuff I wanted to build, but there wasn't any clear focus or direction - just the realization that without machine tools there was no way any of this was going to happen. So, I took the plunge and let subsequent events drive the evolution of my small garage shop. My first purchase was an asian mill/drill. While very large by Sherline standards, it is relatively small (abt 500 lb) as such thing go. It was the biggest machine of its kind that I could fit into my limited shop space, however. I purchased the 4400C lathe package a couple of years later along with the independent 4 jaw chuck and the power feed thinking that was all I would need in the forseeable future. That got me started and I was quickly turning out odds and ends for myself and a few friends. My very first "real" project, however, demonstrated that the stuff I was most interested in building at the time was just a bit larger than the standard lathe would comfortably accomodate. That led to riser blocks. I also discovered early on that I got better results when using carbide cutting tools and ultimately that led to inserts with 3/8" holders, etc. I also discovered right from the start that certain accessories, setups, tooling, etc. wasn't available available from Sherline and I needed to either look elsewhere or build my own. By the way, I enjoy building my own far more than I ever imagined but that's another story. Make no mistake about it - I've done my part to keep Sherline profitable and it would be far easier to list their accessories that I don't have than catalog the contents of the tool chest. My perceived needs evolved quickly over time as the projects presented themselves. The results of all this are documented in the files section of this forum under "JBK's Lathe Mods". This is an example of pushing the envelope on the large end and is admittedly an extreme example at that. Most people simply have no deed or desire to go to these lengths. My projects have also pushed me in the other direction as well, towards really small and highly precise stuff and limited wood turning. Since this is what the Sherline equipment is specifically designed for and tools, collets, chucks, etc. are readily available commercially (and also in my tool chest I might add) there wasn't much point in including that stuff in the writeup. In ancient history I was heavily involved in model shipbuilding and I've wanted to get back into it again. I abandoned it lo these many years ago for want of appropriate tools and shop space to use them. Now I've got pretty much what I need and the ability to build on demand whatever else might be useful. At present I'm moving in that direction and we'll see what happens. I hope this helps, JBK ------- Date: Sat, 08 Feb 2003 02:09:35 -0000 From: "jimknighton1948 " Subject: Re: About to get a lathe, would like advice on... Jerry, in addressing this issue please keep in mind that my lathe is no longer the "basic unit" as sold by Sherline. The whole program of making my lathe what it is falls loosely into the category of "stull I've built for my lathe." That and some of the major accessories such as the threading gearbox, 5C collet chuck, and a few other items are described in the document in the files section. Since my lathe has permanently installed risers it isn't possible for me to use certain of the Sherline accessories as described in the catalog. That hasn't stopped me from purchasing and using them, however. I've just needed to make a few "adjustments," so to speak. Items falling into this category include the knurling attachment and the radius turning tool. Apparently Sherline never envisioned anyone with permanently installed risers would ever want to use these attachments. I have both and have had to fabricate a cross slide table riser complete with t-slots in order to use them. This wasn't difficult or challenging, but it seems odd to me that Sherline doesn't offer a solution to this problem in their catalog. The same comments apply to the W.R. Smith graver toolrest for which I've had to construct a custom riser. That device as sold fits only the standard lathe. Also described in the aforementioned document are the enhanced power feed and power threading motors. I know you are heavily into CNC and may not be as interested in these, but nonetheless they are shop built enhancements to my lathe. Keep in mind that Sherline's power feed offering is a single speed, single direction AC gearmotor that in my mind is something of an inadequate sop to those of use who prefer a manual lathe. A third category of hope built item are special purpose major accessories. I am personally interested in model shipbuilding, particularly scratch building models of wooden sailing ships. This is a tough proposition without certain specialty tools including a precision table saw and thickness sander. I'm not yet finished with these and have no photos, but am actively pursuing both as attachments for my lathe. I hope I'm not being overly optimistic, but I have exceedingly high expectations for both. I have just finished a 5" disk sander and cross slide mounted sanding table as a useful crossover tool that might be of interest to some modelers and/or closet woodworkers out there. Other items of interest that I am not actively pursuing at this time include the scroll saw attachment described on page 20 of Joe Martin's "Tabletop Machinging." Also the following link illustrates a very nice vertical thickness sander attachment for Sherline lathes and might serve as an interesting point of departure. http://www.royal-products.com/html/thickness_sander.htm While at that site check out other sherline related products as well. By the way, Jerry, keep up the good work with CNC. I've been following your adventures with interest and deeply appreciate the advice and suggestions you given to interested parties. Regards, JBK p.s. Upon rereading I discovered my last post to be ambiguous referring to the link to Royal Products. Since they are a Sherline dealer I suppose it only natural to look at the "Sherline" link on their page. That was not what I was referring to, however. Look at the Safety Stop and Treenail Maker links. I'll purchase what and where I can, but I'm not averse to borrowing good ideas for incorporation into my personal projects. After all, these days I have far more time than $$$. I believe that these guys have some interesting notions. Take a look and see what you think. ------- Date: Sat, 08 Feb 2003 08:50:32 -0000 From: "jimknighton1948 " Subject: Re: About to get a lathe, would like advice on... In sherlinex~xxyahoogroups.com, "Carol & Jerry Jankura" wrote: > Out of curiosity, why would you not build separate tools instead of using the Sherline? I'd be concerned with the amount of sawdust that would be generated and its effect on the tools. < Jerry: Your Shopsmith analogy is pretty close to the mark. I've had a Mark V sitting in the garage for nigh unto twenty years now and it's seen a lot of use. I can't pretend that I haven't been influenced by that experience. To be sure, I would prefer to have seperate dedicated machines rather than live with the compromises of a relatively light duty multipurpose machine. Unfortunately, I've never had the shop space to indulge in that luxury. Please don't think me absolutely nuts, but that Shopsmith is actually quite useful in metalworking projects. I have a 40 tooth C2 carbide tipped crosscut blade that I use solely for cutting aluminum and other non ferrous metals to rough size. I make cuts of up to 2" on a regular basis. The Shopsmith's adjustable speed control is the key to doing this successfully. I drop the speed down to the "Drum Sanding" setting (if you're not familiar with the Shopsmith's controls that is somewhere around 900 rpm) and use a slow, steady feed rate and have had virtually no difficulty. Don't even think about trying this on a "normal" table saw - the blade speed is way too high and all sorts of nasty things can and probably will happen. Your comments regarding dust are also on target. I'm dreadfully allergic to sawdust in general and the dust from some woods is downright toxic to me. Dust collection ports are and have been a priority for as long as I've done woodworking and are on the "must have" list for all new accessories. Although I'm concerned about sawdust I'm just as worried about "brass dust." I think that is just as difficult to control and as big a pain to deal with as sawdust. It's been well over a year since I last mounted a piece of brass on the lathe and I'm still finding debris in out of the way nooks and crannies. I absolutely hate the stuff. At least sawdust can be easily picked up with a shop vac. On balance, I don't think sawdust is any more of a problem or concern than brass dust and we live with that in the miniature machine shop all the time. The decision to build Sherline accessories as opposed to dedicated machines is in part driven by economics and in part by practical necessity. The kind of miniature table saw I want is relatively pricey, approx $300+ for a Preac and considerably more for a Jim Byrnes. The Preac is notoriously underpowered and several of my correspondents have solved this problem by replacing the stock motor with a (you guessed it) Sherline motor and controls. That sort of points in the direction I need to go, don't you think? When broken into its seperate logical components a table saw is a close realtive of a lathe as the Shopsmith so aptly demonstrates. The Shopsmith's shortcomings have far more to do with its light construction and limited table size than it does to the fundamentals of the design. There are some people who have done wonders with their Shopsmiths by replacing the legs with a more sturdy construction and filling the bottom way tubes with sand or even lead. To tell the truth, I would do so myself in a heartbeat if only I had the space for a stationary mounting. The Sherline is certainly robust and stoutly built when viewed from a miniaturists perspective and I believe it's a fundamentally sound basis on which to build these special purpose accessories. The only "hard" part of a Sherline based miniature table saw accessory is the table itself which has to be adjustable as to elevation since the headstock is fixed. Personally, this doesn't seem all that difficult to accomplish, although the mechanism can't be patterned directly after Shopsmith practice. I've several notions I think are workable under consideration and may have to build a couple of versions before I am happy with it. That's just how it goes, however, and one of the reasons why we fill up our scrap boxes. I already have the Sherline vertical milling table for my lathe (this is the cross slide mounted gadget, not the headstock replacement) and this will form the basis for a height-adjustable rip fence. You can't get much more precise lateral adjustment than is already available with the cross slide table. That pretty well covers the bases with the exception of the blade mounting, and that is nothing more than a horizontal milling arbor with appropriately sized jewler's slitting/slotting blades. I don't recall all the specifics, but MSC stocks these in several diameters including some in excess of the 4" size I plan to use. These are also available in several arbor bore sizes as well. If cost is no object you can even get solid carbide blades, but I'm not going there, at least not for this project. When viewed from this perspective, the Sherline accessory approach is almost a "no-brainer" and well within the capacity of my and most forum member's home shops. The thickness sander is a somewhat different proposition. I'm considering two different design approaches and one of these is indeed a stand alone machine. Look at the following link and you'll see a very interesting shop-built machine. http://home.att.net/~ShipModelFAQ/ShopNotes/smf-SN-ThicknessSander.html The other approach can be likened to a sanding drum on a shaft mounted on the lathe between centers and driven by a dog/faceplate arrangement. The table portion is a plate with a shallow angle mounted on the cross slide underneath the sanding drum. Adjusting the cross slide in and out varies the distance between the table and the drum and does so in very fine increments. This isn't large capacity, mind you, but it gives exquisite control over the thickness of the resulting parts. A hood over the drum would provide for dust collection much like the illustration shown in the above link. I can't decide which approach to follow and in the end I suspect I will probably build both. Regarding the "treenail" or "trunnel" as it is also known, it is nothing more than a wooden peg used to afix individual planks to the timber framing of the hull's inner construction. It serves the same purpose as a nail, but nails rust over time with possible disaserous consequences to a wooden ship at sea. Treenails aren't prone to that particular problem since they swell with moisture and clamp ever more tightly as a result. No doubt you've seen dowels and round tennons formed in a router jig by rotating the rough stock under the end of a spinning router bit. The treenail maker operates on this principle. Some model shipbuilders use metal fasteners rather than treenails, but the miniature pegs look better on a finished model. This isn't a gadget I'm likely to tackle as a home shop project. I'll buy this one. Regards, Jim ------- Date: Sat, 29 Mar 2003 06:50:55 -0000 From: "Bryan Hassing" Subject: Re: looking 2 buy sherline lathe In sherlinex~xxyahoogroups.com, "fran94085" wrote: > Can anybody out there tell me where I can find the best price on a > sherline lathe, and what is the best model to start with. Or is there > a better one to look into. I would appreciate any feedback. Fran. I am glad that I chose the Sherline Model 4400 long bed lathe over the short bed lathe. Just today, I was working with my lathe and appreciated that I could use the compound slide on the workpiece while leaving a long drill bit, that I was using on and off, in the the tailstock chuck. I have gotten most of my equipment from Discount Campus ( http://www.discountcampus.com ). I have found their prices to be very competitive. By the way, when I first got my lathe, I ordered the 4400C package that comes with quite a few accessories. I have used all of them except the threading attachment. ------- Date: Sat, 29 Mar 2003 00:21:51 -0800 (PST) From: Paul Fitch Subject: Re: Re: looking 2 buy sherline lathe I totally agree with Bryan, get the 4400 lathe for sure. I could not imagine working with the shorty model. I also ordered the 4400C package that includes many good accessories right off the bat. Great package! My favorite accessory ordered after I learned to use the 4400 was the knurling attachment. Man I have had fun with this one.. don't delay, order today. Paul ------- Date: Sat, 29 Mar 2003 09:06:18 -0500 From: "Carol & Jerry Jankura" Subject: RE: looking 2 buy sherline lathe Hi, Fran: In terms of model - your first decision is the choice between models using SI (metric) leadscrews and models using imperial leadscrews. I'd suggest that you purchase which ever is most familiar for YOU to use. Although time consuming, you CAN convert drawings from one system to another. If you add CNC to the machine afterwords, it becomes a moot question because computers can easily multiply or divide numbers by 25.4. Once this decision is made, you next choice is between the short and long bed machines. For this decision, you'll need to know the work envelope of the parts you'll be making. If the machine can't handle this work envelope, it's certainly not the best choice for YOU. Don't forget to include the length of drills, reamers, or other such tooling that may mount in the tailstock chuck. Assuming that either bed length will handle your work, the issue becomes one of portability vs. fiexibility vs cost. The primary advantage of the short bed models is that they're smaller and more easily moved around. The price you pay is that they won't handle as large a workpiece as the long bed model, and they don't include the resettable handwheels. If you want these, you'll have to add their cost to your machine to understand the economics. Personally, I believe that the long bed is a better buy, but I also understand why someone might buy the shorter bed product. As others have mentioned, consider the packages that Sherline offers. I purchased their "C" package and have used all of the accessories that came with it. As far as vendors, I've dealt with Antique Clockworks and was satisfied with both their pricing and service. As you evaluate the online vendors, remember that most do not maintain a stock of Sherline items, but have the factory drop-ship the 'latest' production directly to you. So you'll not get an item that's gathered dust on somebody's shelves for a few years. Jerry ------- Date: Sat, 29 Mar 2003 18:41:27 -0000 From: "Glen Reeser" Subject: Re: looking 2 buy sherline lathe Hi Fran, I'll second the motion that a long bed is the better choice. I bought my Sherline from a hobby shop here in the Chicago area about 10 years ago. They only had the short bed model in stock, so I took what I could get. My intended use was repairing old fountain pens. No, not the wood turners kits, but old Parkers, Watermans, Shaeffers and the like. I then started making some of my own pens. To bore a 3/8" hole in a piece of hard rubber rod stock 3 or 4 inches deep, you need a bed long enough to accommodate 4 inches for the workpiece, 6 inches for the drill bit, 1.5 inches for the chuck and 3 inches for the tailstock. The short bed runs out of room real fast. I would have traded up by now, except for the fact that I bought a 9" x 4 foot South Bend. Gl ------- NOTE TO FILE: The following message asking for advice on buying a used lathe kicks off a spirited discussion with some polarized opinions. A very useful piece of advice has to be the reference to the website http://www.mermac.com/klunker2.html and the companion article advice on inspecting a lathe. Politeness and common sense are never a bad start. ------- Date: Sat, 29 Mar 2003 13:39:57 -0000 From: "lkasdorf" Subject: what to check on a used craftsman 12" lathe? I see an ad for a Craftsman lathe, 12", $200. Alas, the phone number is wrong, so I'll have to wait for next week's ad mag. My shop is all woodworking tools, but I'd like to get a medium to small lathe to play around with. I don't care to bring home junk, even if it is cheap. What should I be looking for and check when inspecting a used Craftsman lathe? I plan to take an inspection mirror and flashlight to look for casting cracks, especially under the headstock. I can visually check the ways for wear. I have a dial indicator on magnetic base I can take. I suppose I could take a long piece of drill rod with me and chuck it up, spin the chuck and look for runout and slop. I'll look at the gears for chipped teeth. Also, the amount of tooling and accessories will be a big factor. I'm not afraid of a little rust or a lot of dirt. I'd plan on rebuilding it- new bearings, maybe repaint if needed. I like rebuilding old machines. what else? I'm sure this has been discussed before... Also- are there particular model numbers that are desirable or should be avoided? Thanks- Lynn Kasdorf ------- Date: Sat, 29 Mar 2003 08:55:43 -0800 From: archie Subject: Re: what to check on a used craftsman 12" lathe? It would be in poor taste to take "test equipment" to look at a $200 lathe or any lathe for that matter. (IMHO) take a look at http://www.mermac.com/klunker2.html and the companion article advice on inspecting a lathe.... Happy Hunting archie =) =) =) ------ Date: Sat, 29 Mar 2003 10:30:13 -0600 From: "David R. Birch" Subject: Re: what to check on a used craftsman 12"lathe? archie wrote: > It would be in poor taste to take "test equipment" to look > at a $200 lathe or any lathe for that matter. Why? If I were selling a lathe, I wouldn't be offended by a potential buyer making some basic tests. David ------- Date: Sat, 29 Mar 2003 16:34:07 +0000 From: Brian Squibb Subject: Re: what to check on a used craftsman 12"lathe? Certainly testing the bed, cross slide, leadscrew. I also turned a piece of brass and compared it with a test piece. Simple things to test it is reasonably straight and true. Brian ------- Date: Sat, 29 Mar 2003 21:15:25 -0600 From: Rodent Subject: Re: what to check on a used craftsman 12"lathe? If you were asking top-dollar, you should expect someone to check it over with a fine-tooth comb. However, if its a clunker and the price is fair, the buyer not look a gift horse in the mouth. More than once I have offered something at a reasonable price taking into consideration all the defects, and when a potential buyer starts picking and haggling I run his butt off. ------- Date: Sun, 30 Mar 2003 00:42:13 -0600 From: Jon Elson Subject: Re: what to check on a used craftsman 12" lathe? >It would be in poor taste to take "test equipment" to look at a $200 >lathe or any lathe for that matter. (IMHO) take a look at No, a knowledgable seller will know a buyer knows what he is doing when he wants to test a lathe. An honest seller won't mind such a check. (You take used cars for a test drive, don't you?) The only person who would be offended would be the guy who's trying to pass off a totally trashed machine as in "perfect condition", and asking a fortune for it. Jon ------- Date: Sun, 30 Mar 2003 02:03:35 -0500 From: Stan Stocker Subject: Re: what to check on a used craftsman 12" lathe? Hi Lynn; First off - for $200 don't expect much. You might get a pleasant surprise, but don't plan on it. Odds are you'll either be very lucky and it's a hobby lathe that's had light duty and is a steal for $200, or it's totally clapped out. Atlas used Zamac for many gears, so gear wear is more common than missing teeth. Clausing has many of the original parts available, so a single nasty piece or worn half nuts isn't the problem with Atlas that it is for some other brands. I don't agree that taking test gear to check out machinery is in poor taste, but it often indicates the buyer doesn't know enough to trust their visual and hands on tests, or has some unreasonable expectations for low price gear. If you're new to metal lathes, will you know what you're seeing if the indicator does something you don't expect? Many things can be aligned, adjusted, or easily fixed. If the seller gets hostile to having the equipment checked over, I walk away. They are either selling something in lousy condition (rustoleum rebuild, spray can restoration...) or have some defect in their personality that makes me want no part of them. At this price, if the carriage moves smoothly from one end to the other without banging around or binding things are surprisingly good. If the spindle turns smoothly and the headstock taper and tailstock ram aren't too badly dinged up life is good. I'll take an indicator to check things like mill spindle runout, and have test bars and indicators handy if looking at higher end stuff, but not down at this price range. If it's in good enough shape to even consider pulling out an indicator, it's probably worth the $200 asked. Still, I sure wouldn't toss you out of my shop if I was selling it and you wanted to check the spindle TIR. But I wouldn't come down from such a low price if you didn't like say a 2 tenths wiggle either :-) If we were talking the decision between a machine being worth $8000 or $6000, you do lot of checking. For $200, if it pretty much works and you want a metal lathe, it's probably worth buying. Just be aware that unless you get very lucky, you'll probably need to get at least a nice chuck, some tool holders, and a toolpost unless you like lantern style toolposts. Cheers, Stan ------- Date: Sun, 30 Mar 2003 09:14:47 -0600 From: "Rodent" Subject: Re: Re: what to check on a used craftsman 12"lathe? Unless its cut up with a torch, even a really crappy 12" Craftsman is a deal for $200. Even if you get a dog, you should be able to part it out and double your money. I would stick with the ones that have a 101 serial number -- these are the Atlas models. ------- Date: Sun, 30 Mar 2003 09:50:38 -0600 From: "jerdal" Subject: Re: what to check on a used craftsman 12" lathe? >The only person who would be offended would be the guy who's trying to >pass off a totally trashed machine as in "perfect condition", and asking >a fortune for it. Jon, you are calling me a cheatin liar.....:-) There is testing, and there is testing. I think a person should know in less than 5 minutes about what condition a machine is in and if they want it. If you can do your checks that quickly, I as a seller might not be too annoyed. I called a guy about a mill a couple weeks ago. When I called, a person was "inspecting" it. The seller got my number to call back when they were gone. It took 45 minutes (that I know of) for that person to decide they did NOT want the mill. I think that was rude, frankly, as a person who has sold a fair amount of stuff (I decided in 30 sec on phone that that mill was not what I wanted). Every machine I have purchased has been an under 5 minute decision. Only one has had a serious hidden problem that caught me, and that one I only bought because the seller tossed me a real lowball price when I jibbed at the first price. And I use the machine even with the problem, which I was able to work around until I get to fixing it. As a seller, almost every person doing a long drawn out evaluation of the item has turned out to be a problem buyer. No quick purchase decision has been an issue that I can recall. Jerrold ------- Date: Sun, 30 Mar 2003 10:17:08 -0600 From: "David R. Birch" Subject: Re: what to check on a used craftsman 12"lathe? Rodent wrote: >If you were asking top-dollar, you should expect someone to check it over >with a fine-tooth comb. However, if its a clunker and the price is fair, >the buyer not look a gift horse in the mouth. If I'm a buyer, I don't expect a gift. If the item is being offered at less than what I would expect, I would suspect there might be hidden problems or the seller is naive. In either case, offering a lower price is no insult; all he has to do is decline it. >More than once I have offered something at a reasonable price taking >into consideration all the defects, and when a potential buyer >starts picking and haggling I run his butt off. I guess we wouldn't be doing bizniz, as I prefer to determine if what I'm buying is "a clunker and the price is fair" myself. When I offer something for sale, if a potential buyer doesn't offer what I think it's worth, I simply don't take his offer. OTOH, I also take into consideration that I might have an inflated view of the item's worth and I often enjoy a good haggle. I know I wouldn't buy anything from a stranger who expects me to accept his evaluation and price without question. David ------- Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2003 07:51:52 -0600 From: "jerdal" Subject: Re: Re: WooHoo!! I finally got a lathe! [ATLAS] >I'll note that it isn't weight on the spindle that is the problem so much >as sudden high forces on that spindle that bend them. Working cast iron >castings is something that is best left to the larger stronger lathes >as far as I am concerned. These are more of aluminum and brass lathes. Gosh, suddenly the 618 is an AA? There are plenty of people who have built working steam locomotive models on the 618. I am baffled by the sudden spate of dire warnings about the 618 and its "extreme weakness". As I recall, Philip Duclos, who contributed so many engine articles to HSM magazine, had "only" a 618 for quite a while, and still built nice stuff. The 1" spindle, while smaller than an oil country lathe, is I believe, nearly16 times as strong and rigid as the microscopic spindle on an AA, which ALSO has been used to make some nice stuff, but which I agree is way too weak. Of course you CAN bend a 1" spindle too, but... If you want to complain about something, the saddle and crosslide is possibly weaker on the 618 than on the AA, but that is an entirely different issue. I think it might break before the spindle was damaged severely, depending. That said, I recently had an opportunity to buy one at an attractive price, and turned it down. I decided that my existing lathe was generally sufficient, and if I bought a small one it would be something better. Jerrold ------- NOTE TO FILE: Confusion is common when people talk about their 6" Craftsman without specifying which model. There are two very different kinds of 6" Craftsman: -- the heavy one made by Atlas and the lighter design made by AA -- both sold as a Craftsman 6" by Sears -- the only parts the two have in common are the change gears. Some of this confusion may have been people commenting on the AA and not realizing the heavier Atlas was the subject under discussion. While Atlas calls its Atlas-badged product a 618, Sears sold it as a Craftsman 101.xxx. Sears sold the lighter AA product as a Craftsman 109.xxx. I use xxx in the above model numbers because the last part of the number changed frequently over the years as lathe features changed. See the start of the "Atlas 618 Gems" file here for more discussion of model variants and model numbers. ------- Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2003 08:52:02 -0600 (CST) From: dswrx~xxwebtv.net Subject: Re: Re: WooHoo!! I finally got a lathe! The six inch Craftsman/Atlas lathe has a very sturdy spindle for this size lathe. I have had one for over 45 years and it has seen it's share of abuse. (interrupted cuts on 4" steel workpiece (cut from 3/4" plate, etc.) I recently mounted a dial test indicator to test the spindle nose and measured less than 0.0005" run-out. Leo (pearland, tx) ------- Date: Mon, 05 May 2003 22:49:45 -0400 From: Stan Stocker Subject: Re: New Atlas QC-42 Owner...maybe Tim wrote: > Hello, My name is Tim and I have a dilema (one I must admit of the > kind I could use more often). I purchased a beautiful South Bend > Lathe with QC gearbox (I know this is an Atlas group, hear me out) > last year that is in pristine condition (95+% of scraping still on > ways). I as a novice have been having to much fun (disregarding my > household chores and all) but as luck would have it I was at an > auction where an Atlas QC-42, serial #001117 was up for bid. This > lathe is as in good condition as the SBL (if not better, there's not > a scratch on the ways, it was owned by a watchmaker so I figure how > many watch parts can be made on a 10 inch lathe?) It seems I didn't > know what my hand was doing and well I now own another lathe... So, > I'm not up to Atlas mentality but it sure is nice but "I" (read my > wife) can not keep both (hmmmm?? maybeee?). Should I keep the Atlas > or the South Bend? Also have some wierd lookin accessories that came > with it maybe sometime I can take a pic and send them to some that > are more knowledgable? Thanks! Tim Q Lima, NY Hi Tim, Why not use the Atlas for a few simple projects, or to make a few bushing drivers or some other useful addition to the toolchest. Once you're comfortable with using the Atlas, make a few more sizes on the South Bend and decide which machine YOU like better. I have an Atlas 12 and SB 9 and 13 inch lathes, along with a Taig and several jewelers lathes (6, 8, and 10 mm). Each machine has strengths and weaknesses. If I had to shrink the shop, I'd keep my SB9. Cheers, Stan ------- Date: Fri, 9 May 2003 14:19:30 -0700 From: "Carol & Jerry Jankura" Subject: RE: Re: Just won a taig on ebay, opinions & ?.... If I may enter this conversation | My father has a DB200 and I was under the impression that it was | a piece of junk as well. Huge amount of backlash, the knobs are not | balanced and knobs always rotate (on their own) so the pin is at the | bottom. Very hard to get anything centered in the chuck as well. And | finally the speeds seem too high. IMHO, the Unimat machines are not a piece of junk, but DO require a much lighter touch, smaller cuts, and do not have as large a work envelope as the Sherline or Taig machines. I've even seen photos on the web of one that was converted into a CNC machine. Personally, I own two of these machines, but purchased Sherline equipment after retiring because I'm really new to machining and don't have the touch required to use the Uni's. There is a Unimat list on yahoo that you might be interested in joining. Join the Sherline list on yahoo as well. These machines have enough in common that techniques applicable to one are often applicable to all. That's why I'm on THIS list. | Please let me know your opinions when it arrives. I may consider | selling our unimat to replace it with a Taig. The unimats seem to | sell for quite some money on e-bay as well. I should be able to pick | up a used taig for the same amount or cheaper. Would it be worth the | upgrade? I rarely use the lathe anyway but it has come in handy | occasionaly. Before you purchase a Taig, or any other machine, you really ought to determine the work envelope you need and the materials you will be using. Also, list the accessories you think you'll need and determine if any commercially available items are available. If not, you'll have to make most of these items. Also, consider if CNC is in your future. Prior to retirement, I'd worked with the Stepper and servo motors generally used for machine automation projects. These typically were priced at $2,500 per axis. After looking around on the web, I added CNC to my mill for about $500 plus the cost of the old 486DX2-50 based notebook computer that I already owned. Once you've made this list, take a look at all of the machines that are available and compare their features to your list. Also, look at the MicroMark mill and lathe. A few folks on the train tools list seem to like this machine and claim that it did not require the 'usual' cleanup and rework that many of the Asian 7x lathes and comparable milling machines do. Personally, I don't believe that there's enough difference in the prices of Sherline, Taig, and some of the Asian clones to make price the determining factor when making a choice. And, yes, it's a shame that the Uni prices have gotten out of hand because of the collectors on eBay. Carol & Jerry Jankura Strongsville, Ohio ------- Date: Fri, 9 May 2003 20:49:36 -0500 From: "Ric" Subject: Re: Re: Just won a taig on ebay, opinions & ?.... I am a member of the Unimat group. I am the one that got the "complete Unimat 3 with every attachment" that turned out to be a DB 200 with a couple items like the saw when it got here. It's not that the Unimat is junk, just this one does not like me. Bad karma. From the git go I have had some issue going on. First I didn't have a jacobs chuck and had to buy one and couldn't figure out what I could do without one. As soon as I got the chuck I was turning a piece of 1/4" brass rod about 4 inches long and the chuck got locked up and I had to cut the piece off and take the chuck apart and had a broke number one jaw. Dan from the Unimat group was very, very kind and sent me two jaws he had for free and I got them the other day. But anyway, just bad vibes from this. If I buy one again it will be a Unimat3 but I thought at this price this taig would be worth trying out. The guy has super feedback and that is the main reason I bought that one. Everything is being made still and if some parts are wore out and need replaced, I can, cheaply. Way cheaper than anything I can buy for the uni on ebay. I admit it, I am stupid. I didn't realize that they are so collectable and I thought I was getting a steal with everything I would ever need. I just want a user, not a collector. I am not trying to down the Unimat as a brand, just mine. Like I said, it just does ot want me to own it. I know I sound insane saying that but it sure seems like it. Every time I try to do something with it I end up yelling at it. This should be fun. I really like some of the features of the Taig that the Unimat doesn't have. Like the steel bed. The DB has too much give even on little stuff. And I am not trying to take deep cuts. If anything I am just trying to dust with it. As soon as I move the tool bit to the work it rides up and moves to the side. I have the tailstock centered to the spindle and the tool bit shimmed to a dead center in the spindle. I do this every time I use it. It probably just needs new bearings but I can feel no play by hand. The biggest thing I think I even would want to turn right now would be a 2 or 2 1/2" diameter piece of brass about 6" long. I just do not think the Unimat can handle it. At least not this one. I also want to say thank you Jerry for all the help you have given me on the Unimat group. Ric ------- Date: Sat, 31 May 2003 04:17:43 -0700 (PDT) From: rodger pease Subject: Re: Quality of Sherline products? Scott, it's obvious (at least to me) that you intend to evaluate many of the opinions here in order to make some reasonable judgement for your decision. I have both a Sherline lathe and mill. I decided on the separate mill because I'm too lazy to keep moving the powerhead from one machine to the next whenever I want a different operation. (Pretty much the same reason that I didn't buy a ShopSmith wood lathe, but that's a different subject.) While I don't do near as much with either machine to approach the accomplishments or skills of a Jerry Kieffer (and many others), the work that I have performed on them is (in my opinion) quite adequate for the hobby and modeling work that I intended the equipment for. They perform well with brass, aluminum, plastics, steel (some varieties better than others) and other materials. There's a huge assortment of tooling available for them (not inexpensive, but most tooling isn't...no matter what the machine) and they have the ability to convert to CNC (also not inexpensive). I am a mechanical engineer and have worked around heavy industrial equipment for almost 30 years. The Sherlines are not industrial machines (that really depends on your definition of industrial, I guess), but can serve their own nitch in an industrial environment, given the limitations of their size and capacity. I also own a 6" Atlas lathe that I use for those projects that are too large for the Sherline. (Sometimes I wish the Atlas was a 12", but I sometimes also wish that I was born rich instead of smart and good looking. Where does wishing stop anyway???) Haven't had any problems with the reliability of either lathe or mill. Both start everytime I turn on the switch and require minimal maintenance. I've found that (with a few exceptions), if you take care of a piece of equipment and treat it with some respect, it will perform with predicable results and provide years of service. Conversely, if you leave your tools out in the rain (so to speak) unprotected, they develop equally predictable problems. Below is a most useful site that another (I apolgize to the individual that created the site; for not remembering his name. He didn't leave it on the site...at least I couldn't find it.) member created. He spent a huge amount of effort in compiling the data and should be commended. Your questions about Sherline (and others) equipment has been raised many times. This site catagorizes many of the previous questions about lathes, milling machines, etc. and many of the subjects that deal with machining in general. It is worth a trip to the site to review the previous questions and answers about Sherline lathes. Might help in your decision making. http://www.janellestudio.com/metal/ Best regards and luck on your quest, Rodger ------- Date: Sat, 31 May 2003 11:50:58 -0500 From: Ken Grunke Subject: Re: Quality of Sherline products? Scott Meyer wrote: >I am very seriously considering buying a Sherline Mill and lathe When I purchased my mill 4 years ago, I didn't realize that the main castings were made of aluminum until I accidentally plowed into the mill table with an endmill. I was pretty dismayed to find that out, but I could see that the mill was otherwise exceptionally well made and designed, so I was happy with my purchase. It's a hard aluminum alloy, and anodized for wear protection. Because of it's aluminum construction, it's important to keep slide surfaces clean to prevent scoring. Felt wipers would be a good idea, maybe the new models have them but mine didn't. One of the most useful setups I have is mounting the column and headstock on my Compact 8 lathe cross-slide, for index-milling of bolt heads and the like. Ken Grunke http://www.token.crwoodturner.com/shop/ ------- Date: Sat, 31 May 2003 17:43:03 -0400 From: Jim Ash Subject: Re: Quality of Sherline products? I've used Sherline products for 7 years. Sure, I'm on this list because I like the product. But let's get zen here, there are no absolute goods or evils, just realities and compromises. I've got a short-bed lathe with the old AC motor, and a long-bed with the newer DC one. I got the long-bed because I got tired of always needing that last half-inch with my tailstock out to the end of the world. Others have complained the long-bed is too unwieldly to handle if you don't leave it in the same place. The AC motor doesn't have the torque and can't hold speed as well as the DC motor. IMHO, don't bother with a machine with the AC motor unless you're desperately short on cash. Chips on the machine can embed themselves in the aluminum under tools being changed and work being clamped down. I keep a collection of toothbrushes and rags nearby and make sure things are clean when I change setups. The Sherline is less tolerant of this kind of dirt than other machines, both because of the size and expected accuracy of the work, and because of the aluminum surfaces. The headstock pivots on the bed to allow for tapered cuts, and has a removable key to line it up with the bed, which doesn't line up on my old one as accurately as I would like. The new one is OK. If you don't cut tapers, this can be more of an annoyance than a feature. If that's the case, cut a test piece, clamp the headstock down straight once and be done with it. I only cut tapers on the old one for this reason. Along this same line, tailstock alignment can also be an issue of you're shooting for accuracy. Sherline offers adjustable tailstock accessories that allow you to offset the tool from the tailstock position to get as accurate as you can stand. If you need to do any accurate tailstock work, get 'em. The three-jaw chuck doesn't have the clamping power I'd like. This is a known problem with a lot of Sherline users. I've had work both spin and slide in (more the latter, so I use a scrap inside so it can bottom out and not go through the spindle shaft). I've got a 4-jaw independent which is a great chuck and doesn't have this problem. Someday when I'm not in a cheap mood, I'll pick up the 4-jaw universal and not bother with the 3-jaw at all, except maybe for special fixturing needs (hex rod, ...). The original stock toolpost is lame. Setting tool height with shims is a minor pain. I have to give Sherline some slack on this; they are trying to bring a quality product to the market as economically as possible, so you can't expect a ton of fancy features from an entry-level machine. To their credit, they offer a lot of those fancy features as accessories for those willing to spring the extra cash. Get one of the the rocker tool posts or the QC and be done with it. As for the accessories, there is a goodly assortment available. I have a bunch of them (for the lathe). I really like the knurling tool, but it is limited in the diameter of work it can handle. It is an embossing operation after all, and large diameters are asking too much of the machine. I've done up to about 3/4" diameters. The screw-cutting setup is OK, but converting to/from it is a minor pain, especially if you have the power feed option, because they both fit on the end of the lead screw and only one fits at a time. Speaking of the power feed option, it might have been a great thing when it first came out, but its time is near. It's run with a little syncronous AC motor, so it's only one speed. It does have plenty of torque; no problem there. Unless you tinker with it, it's not reversable, so every inch you cut is 20 turns you manually have to back off for the next pass. On the long bed, this annoys me to no end, especially when I'm stuck doing long shallow cuts and I need a bunch of passes. In this age of cheap microcontrollers, I don't think it's too much to ask for reverse and a high-speed jog from the power feed accessory. There is a 3rd party single-axis CNC drive which might make more sense. I don't own the radius dresser, because of the style of the tool; it can't cut toriods without a lot of hassle, only spheres, and it's a little limited as to the radius it can cut. OMW Metalcraft has one that will do toroids. For as few times as I need this kind of work, I calculate the X/Y trig stuff on a spreadsheet and step-cut the piece, followed by lathe-filing. The compound slide is a nice tool, but I haven't found a lot of use for it. Ditto with the follow rest and steady rest. If you're considering larger diameter work, Sherline offers the risers (headstock, toolpost, and tailstock) individually. I've got them (and like them), but you've got to understand the limits of the machine. Cutting larger diameter work requires shallower cuts, so you're going to be a while. There is a chance that the extra spring in the machine from the risers could cause problems, but I haven't had any problems with the stuffI've cut with them so far. All this said and done, I'm impressed with the versatility and accuracy of the machine(s). One issue I didn't notice anybody mention: Sherline has top-notch customer support. Expecially for a company in the market space they occupy, their people are knowledgable and helpful. There is no end to the stories from people (myself included) where the Sherline folks went the extra mile to fix a problem or send you a replacement part. Sometimes at their expense. There's a long-term dollar value associated with this kind of loyalty, and they know it, better than most companies I've seen, in any market (and I did customer support for 12 years). Would I do it again? You betcha. Jim Ash ------- Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2003 22:27:00 -0400 From: "Carol & Jerry Jankura" Subject: RE: Re: Any one had Unimat classic? The term "Unimat" covers several machines. These are the ones I have some knowledge about: Unimat DB/SL - Either metalic grey or green. Spindle has a 12x1 metric thread on it. The headstock may be mounted on a column for milling/ drilling operations, or on the bed for lathe turning. The machine may be made of either Cast Iron, Aluminum, or a Zinc alloy, depending on its age. The tool carriage rides on two metric rods about 1/2 inch diameter (maybe 12mm?). As a drill press, it's reasonable. As a lathe, again it's reasonable but you have some problems with the metal rods flexing. As a mill, you have to take some light cuts and the tendency of the metal rods to flex causes more problems. This machine is no longer made and commands collector's prices on eBay. Unimat model 3 - This is a replacement for the Unimat DB/SL series. It uses a 14x1 metric spindle. Again, the head mounts either on a column or on the lathe base. The base is Cast Iron with the ways cast into the base. The machine is more robust than the DB/SL. This machine is no longer made. Unimat model 4 - This machine is the supposed replacement for the Unimat Model 3. It is made in China where as the first two mentioned were made in Austria. I understand that model 4 parts will work with the model 3. I don't believe there are any US distributors of this machine. Unimat 1 Classic - This machine is of plastic and aluminum extrusion construction. The motor is a 12VDC motor. The design is more of a child's toy than an adult's machine. Other than the advertisements on the web and some comments on the Unimat mailing list, I've no knowledge about this machine. My advice would be to forget about the Unimat 1 Classic and purchase a machine that has more robust construction. I'd avoid the Unimats simply because their early models are no longer commercially available. Parts are scarce and the cost is high. The Unimat-4 might be a good machine; The Sherlines are excellent machines. Unfortunately, there are relatively few of them available in the used equipment market. Purchase new from one of their dealers at a discount or directly from Sherline at list price. Most dealers do not stock the machines, but instead have Sherline ship directly, so there's no real incentive to buy directly from Sherline. Jerry ------- Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2003 23:56:19 EDT From: catboat15x~xxaol.com Subject: Re: Re: Any one had Unimat classic? In a message dated 6/3/2003, ted616x~xxvip.sina.com writes: > I just want to use it to make some small parts for the robots. The Unimat Classic will spin your parts OK, Chucks are not too good, but will work somewhat. I had to regrind the metal cutting tool they included, although it looked as if back, side and top rake was already ground in on one end. I think it would depend on what shape parts you need to make. I would try to use it like a clock or watch makers lathe, IE grind up a graver and use it free hand on the wood turning rest. The lathe as a whole is so flexible that using the set up for a cross slide is almost sure to result in a dig in. I have used the lathe, but bolted everything to a stiff backing board and mainly used small files for tools, not the cross slide they provided. Is a pretty nice set up for small wood projects. BTW. The milling machine set up seems more rigid than the lathe set up. I dug out my poor investment to make some small parts that seemed silly on the chuck in a 12 inch lathe, but silly or not went back to the big Atlas. ------- Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2003 20:08:39 -0400 From: "mertbaker" Subject: Re: Re: value of 12x36 craftsman atlas lathe? > I don't get the gist of your message- are you saying that for ONLY > twice that I could buy a new, known commodity, with all the fixins? > Or are you saying that for roughly half the price of an asian > machine, i can buy real american iron? > in other words, a good deal or not? Both. Depends on what you want. I have an Atlas 618 for sale, which I have restored. They are going for 4-600 on Ebay in the shape this one is in and it is not a good a lathe as the Homier 7x12 (Actually, 14, measured the same way the Atlas is) That of course is only my opinion. I have 3 of the 7x lathes from different importers. I also have a Jet 12x36 for which I paid, I think, 1250 new. Jet is one of the more expensive Asian brands. This machine has all the feed & thread gears in a 2 lever tranny, and has a change gear for conversion to cut metric. It came with a 6" 3 jaw, 8" 4 jaw, TS drill chuck 2 faceplates. It's given excellent service for over 15 years now. No comparison with any of the Sear lathes I have seen, and about on a par with the SBs I trained on. With one exception. American Iron is finished off to look a good deal better. It may be that US made stuff is more precise, but for my work so far, (I'm a gunsmith) This asian stuff is precise enuf. Mert ------- Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2003 22:03:00 -0000 From: "Horace Steven" Subject: Re: 101.07403 12x?? lathe I'm going to look at... In atlas_craftsmanx~xxyahoogroups.com, "lkasdorf" wrote: > Being relatively new to metal lathes, is it easy to remove the chuck? > I assume that you use tommy bars of some sort to hold the spindle and > unthread the chuck. There are a bunch of parts with it, but what > would I bring with me to remove the chuck in case there are no > suitable tools with it? LYNN, the usual way to remove the chuck is to lock the shaft by engaging the back gear (using the lever) without undoing the locking pin on the bull gear. This locks up the gear train, you can then put a bar or crescent wrench onto the chuck and turn it off. If its REAL stuck, don't try too hard or the gears may suffer. > I know about checking the ways for wear- look for original scraping > pattern under tailstock and compare to the wear area. LYNN, The Atlas lathes weren't scraped when made, they were a ground finish so don't expect to find any scraping marks. Maybe someone did some as a "personal touch" but weren't done at the factory. Look for obvious wear pattern about 4-6 inches to the right of the headstock, where the most wear is usually found. Use a good straight edge and lay it on top of the rails, look for light under the straight edge. Steve ------- Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2003 00:15:03 -0000 From: "KDSpriggs" Subject: Re: 101.07403 12x?? lathe I'm going to look at... Anybody have any comments > before I go get it tomorrow for $650 (assuming it passes my > inspection)? You might take a look at the lead screw. Compare the sharpness of the threads from end to end. I have two lathes and the lead screw wear closely corresponds to the overall wear. Not fool proof but another thing to look at. I gave about $ 700.00 for the Atlas TH42 (10x24) with added quick change and some wear and quite a few good accessories. I gave 500 for a Craftsman with change gears (12x24) 1/2 thick bed. It came with only a few accesories and a very heavy steel bench. Very little wear. This is about the going price here in southeast Kansas. I went to an auction about ten miles over the line in Oklahoma and saw a 12x36 Craftsman Commercial bring almost $2500. Very nice machine with a lot of accessories but $ 2500?????. Wait a minute I think I have told this story before... ------- Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2003 22:38:47 EDT From: LouD31M066x~xxaol.com Subject: Re: Re: 101.07403 12x?? lathe I'm going to look at... Reason I say take chuck off and look at spindle threads (and chuck threads) is I made mistake of not doing so once. Since spindle is very expensive and time consuming part to replace be sure to look. On 3 jaw chuck look to see each jaw is in correctly numbered slot and do you have both inside and outside jaws sets? Jaws in wrong slot will not properly mesh with spiral plate that moves jaws in and out. Sign of misuse. If bed ways look like someone used them as an anvil the dents and upset material will not help accuracy. Chuck should not be jammed on. If you have large hex key in three jaw and strike it with 2x4 it should come loose. You can not expect to find all possible faults...but...rule out the expensive-to-corrrect with simple checks and careful visual inspection. A few questions such as do you have any idea where the other set of jaws is, what kind of work did owner do with lathe, was there another box of stuff that might belong to lathe? You are going to have to spend a little for cleaning and lubrication if you buy and then the whole will become clear as to condition and possible need for "minor" repairs and replacements. If you spend 650 for lathe you may need to go another 50 to 100 for the little things like half nuts or nut for cross slide. Maybe get from group or ebay or Clausing/Atlas. Louis ------- NOTE TO FILE: There was a discussion in the Sherline group in September 2003 about the quality of Sherline bearings that broadened to a discussion of jewellers' lathes. Read some interesting bearing facts, and the relative merits of older style jewellers' lathes and modern lathes like Sherline (just as easily could have been Taig/Peatol brand representing the modern precision lathe) in the "Bearings and Bushings" text file. ------- Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 23:58:48 -0500 From: "jerdal" Subject: Re: Re: CRAFTSMAN 101-21400 [atlas-craftsman group] > John wrote: "Even the 6" Atlas lathe is a FAR better machine than a > Sherline. The Sherline has ALUMINUM ways, in fact the whole machine is > made almost entirely of aluminum extrusions. When people demo > CNC Sherlines at the NAMES show for a weekend, they assume the > machine will be completely destroyed in 16 hours of movement! [snip]" > Hmmm... I may pass on buying a Sherline after all! I'm also glad > I got the Craftsman/Atlas 101.21400, and not a 109 model. Well, anything can be complained about with no experience, but the proof is in the doing. There are many people who have made a lot of very nice things with a Sherline, and used it far more than 16 hours. I respect Jon, but I think that argument is invalid, off-point, and takes no consideration for facts. If you look at the large number of finely crafted small engines, etc, etc, etc, which have been made entirely on Sherline machines, those arguments just disappear. I refer to runnable 4 cylinder air cooled spark ignition 4 cycle engines which are under 2 inches long and have 1/4 inch cylinder bores. Things like that take a lot more than 16 hours to make, more like 400 hours. I can assure you the makers did not use 25 or 30 lathes in the process! Truth is that the Sherline is fine. If you ran a 101 dry, rubbing the carriage up and down the ways, aside from acting as a fool, you would destroy it in 16 hours of movement (or less) also. And, for the usual use of modelmakers, there is far more use of the crosslide and compound. Not to worry...Sherline should not be scary to use for what it is intended as. Remember what was said about different uses? Keep that in mind. It is useless to say that a Sherline is no good because you can't do something like bore a 10" cylinder on it. Not what its for. At that rate, a Levin is junk too, along with Borley, etc, etc. Jerrold ------- Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2003 01:41:51 -0400 From: Stan Stocker Subject: Re: Re: CRAFTSMAN 101-21400 Jacques Le Clainche wrote: > $1126... $700... Wow!... I need to understand why people will pay > these prices when they can buy a brand new Sherline, including > accessories, for the same kind of money or even less > - is the Craftsman a much better lathe? Jacques Le Clainche, novice. Hi Jacques, No, it isn't that much "better", more a case of it's that much different! I'll be tacky and talk actual prices paid for the lathes here, but keep in mind that this represents 12 years of looking for decent used machines and the occasional new one. This may be a bit long, but I'll tell you what I have (or used to have) and likes or dislikes about each one. This is sort of a "What do I wish I knew before I bought my first lathe?" post. Sherline and Taig are both wonderful machines for work that fits in their envelope. I happen to like my Taig, but have used Sherlines and found them to be quite fine little lathes. The DC variable speed motor on the Sherline lathes is very nice. Taig and Sherline don't do power threading as delivered, nor is their any factory option to add this feature. Sherline has a hand cranked threading setup that works fine. Taig has some aftermarket threading options also. As I only do small threads on the Taig, using good quality dies just doesn't feel like a large limitation. If the Taig were my only lathe, I would hate the lack of power feed and threading. Taig has a rack and pinion for the carriage, fast but no real fine control. Sherline has a leadscrew with a handwheel for carriage movement, great for fine work, an ordeal for long movements. A very nicely tooled Taig is under $500 delivered. When I was shopping for a small lathe a similarly tooled Sherline was around $800. My Atlas lathe, a change gear 12 incher with a 54 inch bed, has some features that are very nice. High spindle speeds, wide range of spindle speeds, and very versatile threading options being the main ones. It's in fresh paint, I'm still making bits and parts for it, and have to order a few parts from Clausing yet. I bought it in rough shape for $250, maybe a bit too much but I figured that was cheap even if viewed as just a set of castings. I'm not in love with the bed, with the older 3/8 inch thick ways. It isn't as solid as either of the South Bends. It does cut well, it's just not as stiff as the South Bends. The headstock bearings may be the source of some of the problems, they look and feel good, but the chatter patterns that sometimes appear make me suspect them. I haven't had the chance to use an Atlas with the 1/2 inch thick bed ways, folks seem to like these MUCH better. They may well be as rigid as the bed on my 9 incher. My South Bend 9 incher, a 1939 Workshop C, complete and very nicely tooled was $500. It was in cherry shape other than being cosmetically UGLY. I'm the second owner :-) The original owner uncrated it in his basement in 1939 and took care of it. Fresh paint, a bit of polishing, a few parts made and it's a fine lathe. I was lucky to get this one, some friends deal in machinery part time. It's a solid bearing headstock, so the spindle speed is limited to around 750 RPM - too slow for really small work or to use carbide at it's optimal cutting speed on many pieces. The 1931 South Bend 13 incher was skidded out from under a collapsed barn. It took 2 LONG days to grind the bed using home made fixtures. But it has 54 inches between centers anyway (7 foot bed), and enough mass to swing out of balance stuff. Oh yeah, you can hog cuts on it too! Slow spindle, maybe 650 RPM tops. But how often do you swing a 12 inch workpiece much faster? I got it for $100, figured if worse came to worse the tailstock alone would bring $250 to $350 if parting it out was the final decision, or it would make a nice woodturning lathe. The first job done on it paid for the lathe and the paint, but not the time to get it usable. It isn't good enough to be my only larger lathe, but is just fine for telescope piers and tractor parts. There's also a not yet restored 6mm jewelers lathe, an nice 8mm jewelers lathe, a cherry 10mm clockmakers lathe, and an 8mm WW collet speed head. One of these days I'll either get a WW head for the Taig or make a WW adapter for it. Then again, maybe I'll luck into a cherry Levin that's affordable one day :-) A Taig or Sherline would do as well for clock work unless you get into older French clocks, which are really more along the lines of large watches in terms of materials and design - very small, very hard pivots and tight tolerances. Many clockmakers have made complete movements on Taig and Sherline lathes. The PM Research video on making their smaller wobbler steam engine is done using a Sherline lathe and mill. It's a nice first steam engine project. Bought three of the kits and the video for my kids last Christmas. My neighbor has a 15 inch South Bend. I sometimes need to use his lathe, more often he needs to use either my SB9 or the Taig for some small part that gets lost on his lathe. Trying to make a carburetor needle for a small engine on a 15 inch lathe without a collet chuck is not my idea of fun. Each lathe maker and model has unique limitations and capabilities. It isn't that any one machine (with a few notable exceptions) is that much "more" or "less" of a lathe than the others. You can't do tractor axles on a Taig or small steam engine spool valves easily on a 13 incher. If you do only small work and have to hold tight tolerances, a new small lathe may be right for you. If you want to be able to make some engine repair tools, larger steam or gas engines and the like, you need a bigger lathe. The first step is to decide just what you want to make or repair, and how much room you can take up with the tools. If your shop is on a third floor, you don't have much chance of having a big tool room lathe, but an Atlas or smaller SB would do just fine. The person turning the cranks makes more difference in the outcome than the machine. A novice needs a lathe that doesn't have too many quirks, a more experienced guy may be able to work around them. If you want some real sticker shock, check the price on a Burgeon jewelers lathe. Nicely tooled in a fitted box it's just shy of $17,000 (nicely discounted by the way) from Frei and Borel. $19,500 with milling and grinding accessories. Bare lathe is just over $5,000, add $1400 for the electronic speed control motor. Drilling tailstock and graver toolrest not included, price not listed. A new SB will set you back several tens of thousands, ditto for Hardinge. New Myfords are high dollar as well, seems they go for around $10K according to the folks on RCM. Whatever you decide on, avoid the Chinese 9X20 lathes. Some are OK when fixed up, some are basket cases. They are no deal, even for $800 on sale. Better to get one of the 7X10 or 7X12 Chinese lathes, they are better made than the 9X20's. I had a Jet BD920N. It took me longer to get it into workable shape than it did to completely strip, paint, and rebuild the SB9. And it still wasn't a good lathe. It was a happy day when that lathe left my shop. My fair condition Atlas would put it to shame any day. Cheers, Stan ------- Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2003 16:47:44 -0400 From: "mertbaker" Subject: Re: Re: 109.20630 Heresy & sacriledge here on the Atlas channel, but long before I'd buy a 109 for any price, I'd get an Asian 7x12, (Cummins looks best right now, then Homier). I have both, 109 & 7x, & unless you need 18" between centers, the 7x is about 10-15 times the lathe that the 109 is. Just my not-so-humble opinion. One more thought; the whole spindle on a 109 will fit thru the hole in the spindle on a 7x. Mert ------- Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2003 16:59:13 -0500 From: "jerdal" Subject: Re: Re: 109.20630 and Logan > I have just been offered a Logan 11" lathe, good working order but > obviously well used, needs a good cleaning. All parts are there. > Seller wants $800. Any of you know about Logan lathes and if that > is a fair price? >>Logan is a good brand. Company got bought out years ago for actuator >> that they made. Son of original owner, Scott Logan continues to sell >> parts for the lathes. He hands out on rec.crafts.metalworking. If >> the lathe is in fair shape, 800 is a good price. As I recall, they >> are pretty solidly built. I almost bought one for my firt lathe, then >> ended up buying a 12" sebastian, a very heavily built lathe. Definitely agree. I have a 10", the 11" are nicer. Does it have the "automatic" apron? A quick-change? What is the spindle nose type... thread, or a modern type? Thread is easier to make tooling for, the modern type are better overall. The 11" go for $1100 plus with reasonable tooling. I gave $625 for a 10" a few years ago and have been happy. One huge advantage is the 11" is able to take a 5C collet, since the bore of the spindle is a lot larger than Atlas, 10" S-B, and the other hobby machines. Company website is www.loganact.com There is a yahoo group, "lathe-list". Jerrold -------- Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2003 23:16:49 -1000 (HST) From: Tom Benedict Subject: Re: Boring Aluminum [taigtools group] > I am working on a project where we've had to pay a local shop to bore > out some 3.0" diameter aluminum and tap a 1-1/2" NPT thread. The rod is > only 3.5" long but is bored out almost all the way through. I happened > across a site for a small lathe and mill and ended up here. > Having spent some time in the machine shop while at school I was > wondering if these little devils could do the trick? Could someone give > me a quick synopsis of their limitations? The Taig chuck will gladly take a 3" diameter round, and you could likely bore it out to the nominal diameter to take a 1-1/2" NPT tap, but I don't know how much fun it would be. As you reached final diameter, they'd have to be pretty light cuts. In any case I don't know if I'd want to try that big a tap on the lathe. The Taig lathe really shines on small precision machining. Taking heavy cuts really isn't where it's at its best. If the bulk of what you're going to be doing is threading those parts, you might look around for a heavier lathe. A nice used South Bend would be ideal, but there are some pretty good import lathes to consider as well. If you get the chance, try to see what the machine shop is using to make those parts. That'll give you a starting point when you cruise the tool catalogs looking at lathes (Enco, MSC, Grizzly, and Blue Ridge Machinery are some good ones). If it looks like the lathe is going to cost more than the job, it may be worth it to pay them for the parts. But if you're planning on designing more parts like this, the tools can pay for themselves quickly. Tom ------- Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2003 09:20:50 -0800 From: "Carol & Jerry Jankura" Subject: RE: New Member - Full of Anxiety > I have been bouncing between Taig, Shopsmith, Smithy, and others - > but have found myself coming back to Sherline. Well, for starters ShopSmith is a woodworking tool (I have one and use it a couple of times a week) so it's out of the picture as far as metalworking goes. > I am not a machinist, but have always wanted to enjoy the hobby by > building small gasoline V engines (V2,4,6,8 etc.). > I am hoping that the Sherline will have the size capacity I need to > make these engines... (I don't know what I need... as for size) There are two ways you can go about choosing your machinery. You can either put your money on the table, take one of the machines home, and let its work envelope determine the size of the models you are able to build. Or, you can decide on the models and scale you wish to build and select the tool by the work envelope required to produce the parts you'll need. I purchased my Sherline tools in early 2000 when I took an early retirement. I'd purchased a Unimat nearly twenty-five years earlier and hadn't used it much because of work requirements. When I started using the Uni, I found that it worked OK as a lathe, but was really lacking when used as a mill. So, I started surfing the web and looked at all of the desktop sized mills that I could find. I settled on the Sherline model 2000. (I should mention that I wanted to build HO scale trains so the work envelope of any of the machines I was considering would fill the bill). After I got it home and started using it, I decided that the Uni paled by comparison, even as a lathe so I purchased Sherline's model 4400 lathe. Were I doing it over, I'd have saved a few bucks and just purchased their "ultimate" package. Then, I found the Cad_Cam_EDM_DRO list and learned how inexpensively I could add CNC to the mill, so I purchased some motors, Sherline's coupling kit, a motor drive kit, and built my own CNC. I found a G-Code interpreter, CAD, and DXF file format -> G-Code converter and had a means of generating tool paths. From there, it was a little downhill. I wound up working with the fellow who wrote the G-Code interpreter (TurboCNC, www.dakeng.com) and have been enjoying myself more than I'd origially thought. As you're doing, I joined most of the lists that concerned themselves with desktop machinery. Most of the folks on the lists are knowledgeable and willing to help out. And, as far as techniques are concered, the machines are similar enough to each other that techinques that work for on are easily adapted to the other. The major advice that I'd offer is to purchase a machine that's still being made. A lot of folks are buying the Unimat machines from eBay and are paying close to what a new, currently produced, machine sells for. I don't understand the wisdom in doing this, as the machines haven't been made in at least 20 years and the machines themselves aren't that good. It's not like purchasing a used SouthBend lathe or Bridgeport mill instead of buying a new Asian import. Jerry ------- Date: Fri, 07 Nov 2003 08:55:45 -0600 From: xlch58x~xxswbell.net Subject: Re: Re: Digest Number 1690 I agree the Sheldon from the factory was a far superior machine, for industrial work. The Craftsman has its merits. Easier to get in a basement, easier to install in a small workshop etc. I knew of one guy looking for a lathe for his upstairs apartment, atlas is perfect for that. The other aspect to look at is wear. Carbide tooling and lever closing collet adapters could mean a pampered toolroom lathe or a flogged out floor machine. Finally, the light flat ways for the Craftsman are inferior to the Sheldon in terms or rigidity and accuracy, but are a lot easier to refurbish and to make tooling for. An Atlas is about the easiest machine out there to rebuild. This is not in defense of the Atlas, but rather in defense of considering all factors. So go with the machine in that meets your requirements in the best condition and sell the other one. Both are excellent machines for the "average" home shop. Personally, condition being close to equal, I would go with the Sheldon as well not just because of the rigidity, but the tooling you describe came with it. Charles ------- Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2003 17:13:13 -0000 From: "crackerfactory03" Subject: Horological lathes I've been watching the bidding at the Hoff-Hilk website for the antique Levin jewelers lathes with some amusement. The current bid on one of these lathes is in the 800.00+ dollar range! And this is for a lathe that (so far as I know) is no longer produced parts and accessories for which are unobtainable except on the used/auction market at inflated prices like that of the lathe mentioned above.Bidding on these makes sense if the object is to own an antique, but if a person wants a very good, current production watch/clockmaker's lathe, then he/she would be much better served with a Cowell's lathe such as the Cowells CW or ME lathes produced by this British small lathe maker and priced nearly the same as what these bidders are willing to pay for the old Levin lathes on the Hoff-Hilk web site! Plus, all attachments and collet sets are current production an available for them. C.G. Norman ------- Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2003 13:45:59 -0500 From: "Statman Designs, LLC" Subject: Re: Horological lathes Actually I believe all of the accessories, and these particular model lathes are still offered new by the Levin company. I would not consider these antiques by any means, they are probably 15 years old. All accessories and assorted stuff is still readily available directly from Levin. www.levinlathe.com These are widely viewed as the finest precision lathes available, of course if all you need is a Sherline then they are ABSURDLY priced. The cross slide alone is a $3000+ item. Each Levin collet is $100, and they regularly sell used on eBay for $20-$25 apiece. So the set of 70+ Levin collets in the Hoff-Hilk auction will get about $1500 on eBay. Each lathe with the motors and tables will sell for $1500+ on eBay. You may not like the pieces, but you cannot argue their market value. Daniel J. Statman, Statman Designs www.statmandesigns.com dan.statmanx~xxrennlist.com ------- Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2003 21:20:21 -0000 From: "n2562001" Subject: Re: Horological lathes > if all you need is a Sherline then they are ABSURDLY priced. Dan, I think they are Aburdly priced period. I have a Levin lathe and most of the accessories but have not been able to do anything on it that I can not do faster on my Sherline. I do however prefer the Levin and Boley collets over others. Jerry Kieffer ------- Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2003 23:07:01 -0000 From: "n2562001" Subject: Re: Horological lathes C.G. After having owned a Cowells 90 ME lathe and having worked on a 90CW I would have to respectfully disagree with your statement. Since purchasing Sherline Equipment I have very seldom used my jewelers lathes. I have found the the Sherline Equipment is just as accurate, requires less skill and time as well as being more versatile for the same job. Cutting a balance staff now takes about an hour where as it used to take over two hours on jewelers lathes. My current on going watch project is a 18 size five minute repeater from bar stock done on Sherline equipment. The Cowells 90ME was a well made accurate lathe but had a weak non variable speed motor, small spindle hole and no provision for WW collets. The 90CW had the same motor, same spindle hole but was set up for WW collets. What I did not like was the time it took to install chucks and the slightly under sized spindle that would not except all brands of WW collets. I am very meticulous and tend to use equipment that will do the highest qaulity work in the shortest time. If better equipment comes along I will purchase it but so far the Sherline has outperformed the other brand available. Jerry Kieffer ------- Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2003 14:49:06 -0000 From: "Flosi Gudmundsson" Subject: Re: Clisby Miniature Machines >Check out the Clisby Miniature Machines. They are precision made machines >out of Australia by the same inventor of the original Sherline Lathe. I have both Clisby and Sherline and I can attest that the quality is incomparable. The quality and precision of Clisby is way below Sherline. The biggest issue is the headstock which has a sleeve instead of ball races and it wobbles visibly. I can see the part move away when the tool hits it, maybe 0.1mm or more. The Clisby is inexpensive though, I wish it was better and more expensive. One day I'm gonna rectify all those shortcommings and then I will have a wonderful miniature lathe as the concept is brilliant, it's only the execution that leaves something to be desired. Just my 2 IKR Flosi in Iceland ------- Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2003 17:25:54 -0500 From: "mertbaker" Subject: Re: 109 for woodworking? [atlas_craftsman GROUP] > I am new to the group and strangely enough I am not a machinist and I > do not know metal lathes or how to run one. I am a woodworking > hobbyist. I do however own a Sears Dunlap 109 0703 lathe. It appears > to be in good condition. It has a three jaw "skinner" chuck and looks > to need some cleaning up. I would like to turn some pens and other > woodworking type pursuits. I can't imagine ever turning metal. Is > this lathe O.K. for light woodworking? Or would I be better off > selling it and getting something more in tune with woodworking. What > would this lathe be worth? The only thing I see wrong with it is one > gear has lost some teeth. I'm not a mechanical dolt but I don't know > the finer points of metal lathes. Thanks That lathe would be a lot better for woodworking than it is for any metal except maybe brass or aluminum. It should be ideal for pens, as you can turn & bore true cylinders using the lead screw to feed the tool. Mert ------- Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2003 15:13:21 -0800 From: John Sandhagen Subject: Re: 109 for woodworking? You have two advantages now. You already own it and when the dust clogs up stuff you won't be upset about the loss of accuracy or the rust. You can certainly get a wood turning spur and make lots of pens. Go for it. ------- Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2003 13:44:04 -0500 From: "Dick Farris" Subject: Re: 109 for woodworking? Mark, I inherited a 109 from my late dad and that's all he turned with it. Wood that is.. It came to me years ago and I put it in the corner because I thought it was covered with rust. A few years ago I looked it over and discovered the rust was really a heavy coating of Black Walnut fine shavings and dust mixed with the lube oil he had been using. I wiped it down and it was nearly ready to go. Had to tighten up the gibs a bit. I would imagine that you might have to turn the wood at a different speed than soft metals, but that shoud take only a few minutes of experimenting. My dad was able to turn some pretty good small things, like the little round " urns " that sit on the tippy-top center of a grandfather clock. (At least - they look like Urns.) Good luck with your 109 - mine is still going strong. Dick Farris Toledo ------- Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2004 08:54:05 -0600 From: "jerdal" Subject: Re: Apples and Oranges and Asian lathes > I see no reason to settle for the extremely short > distance between centers of the 7x10. Of course that depends on your work. It is worth noting that the Atlas 6" is only 18" and there are 7 x 12 and 7x14 versions of the Asian product. You are trading a bit bigger swing for C-C distance. Incidentally, the 7xwhatever machines are generally heavier-built overall than the Atlas 6", which has a very lacy and delicate-looking carriage. It may even be lighter and lacier than the 109 carriage. And, if I am not mistaken, some of the 7x machines have 1 1/2-8 spindles, instead of the 1-8 or 1-10 spindle on the Atlas 6x18. Easier to get tooling, larger spindle hole, and beefier overall. Jerrold ------- Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2004 11:33:16 -0500 From: "mertbaker" Subject: Re: Apples and Oranges and Asian lathes All the Asian 7xs I have seen have a mounting flange on the spindle end, & no threads at all. MT #3 spindle taper. Should you want a threaded spindle, it wouldn't be hard to make one, (any thread you want) & bolt it to the flange. Mert ------- Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2004 18:36:10 -0000 From: "josuha1954" Subject: Re: Apples and Oranges and Asian lathes LittleMachineshop http://www.littlemachineshop.com/default.php carries chucks and adapter plates for the 7X series of lathe. I think there is also a 5" available. There isn't a need to make a spindle as the chucks will do about anything a home shop would want. But if you want to, they also sell parts (anything you can think of for that lathe) including bearings for the spindle. There is even a 'stretch' kit, to make a 7X10 into a 7X14. There are also a myriad of 'mods' from tailstock locks to ball turners and taper attachments for that machine. Josh ------- Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2004 17:22:09 EST From: n8as1x~xxaol.com Subject: Re: Apples and Oranges and Asian lathes has anyone mentioned learning to thrd x~xx the minimum speed on these machines (130 or so ) ...mine goes down to 27 rpm.....wud like to observe someons first efforts 130 rpm .... oh yeah ...have fun cutting ,facing anything ferrous near 2 1/2 to 3 in w/ hi speed bits at that minimum... be prepared to buy bits that cost 4 times as much & dare i say CHIP.? all u poor mouthers of atlas zamac gears....how do u like plastic? check back in 46 yrs ( w/ whoevers still around) as to how they are doing... lacy carriage ..???...my one piece carriage is anything But lacy ... compound cud be a lot stouter tho heavier? ...my 1957 6x18 crftsm is 25 % heavier W/OUT the motor...which thank the Lord is separate & can be renewed w/ any old wash/dry machine scrapped..... dont know what one can mill on the asian , but w/ mill attach ,i can take a full width .030 cut w/ a 3/8 endmill in STEEL .....(1018) ...... the atlas 6x18 was cheapened considerably in design near the end of its life ....i dunno ....maybe thats the machine being compared best wishes docn8as ------- Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 05:27:17 -0000 From: "stokessd" Subject: Re: Comparison of TAIG lathe to 7x12 lathe? In taigtoolsx~xxyahoogroups.com, "pgmrdan" wrote: > Contemplating getting another lathe. > For anyone who has both a Taig and a 7x12 can you give me a good > comparison? I'm interested in finding out about accuracy and pure > enjoyment of using the lathes. I have a friend who has a 7x12 (homier one) and I've got a Taig as well as a 6" atlas. I haven't done any serious machining on his 7x12 but I have made swarf on it. The Taig is really much smaller and more wimpy than the 7x12. The 7x12 uses small normal machine tooling, while the taig uses taig specific centers and such. The 7x12 threads and has power feed, as well as variable spindle speeds (we also wind inductors and such) and has significant mass (it weights probably 5 times what the taig does). The 7x12 is a small version of a fully functional lathe, where the Taig lathe is more limited. However, the 7x12 manufacturing tolerances are abysmal. As his lathe has worn in, it has required many adjustments and he is now fighting a carriage problem that appears to be manufacturing related. His half nuts don't engage right either (I know that sounds personal). I nearly bought one of the 7x12's instead of the taig, but the totally shoddy build quality scared me off. The interesting thing about the 7x12 lathes and the mini mill is that they are very popular and there is a good support network for parts and mods. They also use standard tooling, for example the mini mill has an R8 taper and copious cast iron. It also has a real problem with poorly designed jibs. If you can put up with fooling with them to try to clean up the shoddy workmanship, you get a lot of tool for the money with those chinese tools. The Taig is a great tool, quite precise and nicely designed, but it's for little jobs and light cuts. Sure it can hog out some metal but it's really not happy doing it. It also doesn't have a power feed, which I like for finish cuts more than for threading. And threading is overrated especially on a lathe the size of the Taig, where you can cheaply buy a die for the sorts of threading you'd be doing on it. In my limited (think hacker here) machining experience, the Taig is less forgiving of tool setup and feed speeds than bigger beefier machines due to the low mass. The Taig can very easily chatter where I have to be doing something a lot more wrong on my atlas to get the same level of chatter. The Taig lathe is a bit of a puzzle to me. I also own the Taig mill, and it's much more beefy and competent than the lathe. I'd love to see the lathe beefed up about 50% (without more swing) and a clever leadscrew arrangement employed. BTW, the Taig mill is much closer to the same league as the chinese mini mill than the taig lathe is to the 7x12 lathe. If I were you, i'd look for an old Atlas 6" lathe or if you have the space and deep enough pockets ($800-$1000), I'd pick up a 9" or 10" south bend lathe (think 50 years old or more). The taig products are great but much lighter weight than the chinese stuff. Lighter weight and a more enjoyable to use in my experience. I'd like to hear comments on my findings, do you guys think I'm off base? Sheldon ------- Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2004 10:41:43 -0000 From: "Terence T.S. Tam" Subject: Re: Comparison of TAIG lathe to 7x12 lathe? I just finished uncrating and cleaning a 9x20 Chinese import lathe. $750.00 after taxes and all, from Harbor Freight. Ended up spending $10.00 more on a crowbar and hammer and elastic tie down, as the lathe in its crate wouldn't fit into my Honda Accord. :) My experience with the lathe would be pretty similar to that with a 7x14, minus the crowbar and the back pains associated with lifting a 250lb piece of iron. The machine arrived with LOTS of grease slopped over it, to protect it from rust. Cleaning involved lots of brushing with a toothbrush dipped in citrus degreaser. So far I've been brushing for 2 hours, cleaning and disassembling and reassembling. There is still swarf left over from the sandcasting process. I've gotten the leadscrew, the cross slide and the ways cleaned. I havn't even TOUCHED the carriage, the transmissin in the carriage, or the headstock transmission yet. Don't buy this expecting to be able to start production work on it right away. I own a Taig mill. It's a beautiful machine where it matters. The table had cosmetic blemishes on the anodizing, the paint job isn't as pretty as Sherline's, but EVERYTHING that matters is beefy and beautifully executed. Fine by me, I like my machines to make pretty parts, not look pretty. I can't say I like their lathe design, I think they really ought to extend the bed of the lathe, and come up with a better tailstock. And, not having a leadscrew on a lathe to me is a like having only one button on a computer mouse (*cough* Apple *cough). But that's just me. Most of the Chinese lathe's shortcoming can be addressed with mods. See this link for an example: http://bedair.org/9x20camlock/9x20project.html As mentioned before the 7x and 9x lathes uses industry standard tooling. MT2 for the tailstock, MT3 for the headstock, Aloris type AXA series QCTP works like a charm on it. The one thing I hate about my Taig was the proprietary collet and closer. I like having freedom to choice for tools I use. For $750 (after tax) I got a lathe, which came with all the metric wrenches and allen keys to work on it, a follower rest, a steady rest, a 3-Jaw chuck, a 4-Jaw chuck, and a live center. $200.00 more from Enco I got the tailstock drill chuck and a wedge type, aloris compartible quick change tool post. I can't even buy a Sherline at that cost! (Pity, because I love their lathe - have one in my lab). There's also no substitute for sheer physical mass and power. At 2000 RPM I'm willing to bet that the chuck jaws will take off my knuckles, and at 200+ lbs I know that machine's not going to vibrate when I cut. Personally, I'm fresh out of college and don't have a lot of money. I have my dreams, my designs, my ideas - and I don't feel like waiting until retirement to carry them out. We have a Hardinge at work and it costs more than downpayment for a house! Since I consider my tools as an investment and the knowledge gained working on them as a return on investment, I don't mind spending the time and elbow grease on fixing up my lathe. I plan on doing a servo CNC conversion anyway (anyone seen CNC thead cutting? zip, zip, zip, done!), so a bit of extra cleaning and stuff is no big deal. Hope this helps! Terence Terence Tak-Shing Tam Team Mentor / Shop Manager SWAT Robotics Team, Team # 824 (http://www.swatrobotics.org) ------- Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2004 19:20:29 -0000 From: "jeastwoodlm" Subject: Re: To Sherline or not to Sherline "Larry" wrote: > New guy here. > I believe that the Sherline equipment is the best there is in this > size range. However I've been going back and forth over their 6200 > package and buying something from Grizzly that is much bigger i.e > lathe 12"x 36" similar for the mill. I don't want to buy too much > capacity or the reverse, too little. So the debate in the head goes > on. This would be used for small stuff, gauge 1 steam locos etc. > But who knows I might want to do a 7.25 gauge loco some day. If you expect to make mostly small stuff I think the Sherline equipment will do great for you. The way I dealt with the occasional need to turn something bigger was to pick up a cheap 7x10 minilathe, which I consider an accessory to the Sherline. In my experience I've felt a need for a larger mill more often than a larger swing lathe. It's harder to find a mill that's slightly larger than the Sherline that doesn't weight 600lbs, than finding a cheap tabletop lathe that's slightly bigger. There are lots of resources on the web that will discuss the pros and cons of the Chinese equipment sold by Grizzly, Jet, Enco, Harbor Freight. Look at the Yahoo 7x10 minilathe group for one. I make model steam engines(such as those found in "Elmer's Engines", "Steam and Stirling Engines You Can Build", Ed Warren's designs, etc.) and tooling for the Sherline equipment, just to give you an idea of the size of work that can be easily done on that equipment. ------------- Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2004 05:15:09 -0000 From: "John Bentley" Subject: Re: Busy Bee machines Kel, I have a Busy Bee Craftex 7" x 8" mini lathe. I also have a Taig. I have written some comments on my web site, based on my experience with both lathes. I think all the Asian lathes and mills start out much the same - it is the level of standards accepted by the importer that can make the difference. Generally, I think Busy Bee has reasonably high import standards - I certainly didn't find casting sand and swarf inside critical areas, as I've read some people have from other dealers' machines. Mine also drills quite accurately from the tailstock. I haven't had any trouble, but I took the advice of many on the mini lathe site and spent considerable time tuning & removing slack from everything right off the bat. I have two friends with bigger Craftex models who say they are pleased. John www.JRBentley.com ------- Date: Mon, 02 Feb 2004 22:33:11 -0000 From: "n2562001" Subject: Watchmakers For some years I have been using the Sherline lathe to cut the half dozen or so staffs I cut in a year rather than my jewelers lathes. The Sherline has been just as accurate and in some cases more accurate. However the most important reason is that a friendly compound and carbide tooling requires about half the time and skill of traditional methods. The main reason for this post is that I recently tried the 10,000 pulley set on the lathe for cutting staffs. I found that it is even faster and the work piece requires far less polishing that has always been a time consuming pain at least for me. I just thought this may be of interest to anyone doing watch work. Jerry Kieffer ------- Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2004 22:18:16 -0600 From: "jerdal" Subject: Re: What is a reasonable price for a 6x18? > The 618 sells at an inflated price for two reasons. > 1. It is light enough (relatively) to be shipped without having to go to > truck freight or machinery movers. > 2. It is small and easily stored. People getting into lathes from other > than experience look for small and storable, not knowing that they are > artificially limiting themselves. This is probably the only reason the > 109/Dunlop/AA lathes ever sold at all. Well sure, inflated being maybe $700 or so. But $1800? I do NOT think so........unless it is a pristine collector piece. That I do not LIKE, but I sorta understand it. I know about the small/portable/not so scary/etc deal and fully agree on 109s. But here, 618s go for $300 to $450. No foolin. Nice ones, nearly new looking. I keep thinking of buying one and selling it on ebay, but I just don't want to deal with it. Usually the same size argument is invoked to explain why bare 9" Southbend in "ok" shape have $1200 asking prices on them, with a "cheap at the price" attitude by sellers. I don't think they often sell for that here, but elsewhere they do. So the '10" is too big' argument sounds a little weak, but may be true. The 10" in question for me is a Logan, and I moved it myself, but that may not prove much. I also jacked up my garage and poured new concrete sills under it, so I will do things others will not. Jerrold ------- Date: Thu, 05 Feb 2004 19:03:47 -0000 From: "n2562001" Subject: Re: Lathe Purchase Advice Needed [taigtools group] I went through the small Equipment selection dilemma about fifteen years ago. I use the Equipment for everything from models to watchmaking. After having went through this process two things stand out. First an opinion whether it be mine or someone else`s is no better than what that person can demonstrate. (No offence or reference to anyone -- just my experience.) Second the practical design and qaulity of your equipment for the most part, will determine the qaulity of your work and the skill level you will eventually achieve. Since I was unable to get the information I needed at the time, I purchased one of each brand of equipment that was available. After trying each I sold the ones that were not capable of doing what I wished to do. For most people this will not be a practical approach. However after having went through this I strongly suggest to anyone purchasing equipment that they try or have demonstrated as many brands as possible before purchasing. One thing to keep in mind is that small equipment is for small work and large equipment is for large work. If you are going to do any amount of machining you will eventually want and need both large and small machines. I think I have been told at least a thousand times that you can machine small parts on a large machine, but you can`t machine large parts on a small machine. While it is not practical to machine large parts on a small machine it is also not practical to machine small parts on a large lathe or mill that is not designed to do so. While I have been promised many small part demonstrations on large machines, no one has stepped up -- to date. Jerry Kieffer ------- Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2004 10:08:06 +0000 From: Clive Foster Subject: Re: Lathe Purchase Advice Needed Some general thoughts on how the inexperienced can be guided into getting a tool that meets their needs:- 1) For anyone without a mentor or relevant experience (industry, college or whatever) its important that the tool work properly straight out of the box. hence its best to purchase new known good make or a good quality second hand rather than "el cheapo import" or "bargain out of grand-dads garage". El cheapo invariably requires fettling and and sorting out in greater or lesser degree before it works properly, you may also have to make new or re-make parts before all is up to scratch. The flip side of getting a lot of machine for not much money. Very discouraging if you have not yet developed the skills to do the work. It is a major irritation to discover that a tool which performs fine on undemanding work fails to cope with more ambitious stuff without a rebuild. Although a good workman never blames his tools for his lack of skill sometimes it IS the tool and telling the difference between personal and mechanical failings is hard for the inexperienced. Anyone contributing to this site will do their best to help (and a very good best it is) but sometimes there is no substitute for an old hand peering over your shoulder. The better the quality of the machine the less likely you are to hit this type of problem before your personal skills are up to diagnosing machine or set-up woes. 2) Beginners need a good book or two with information and neophyte projects appropriate to the machine in question. For example Tony Jeffree has produced a good one for the Taig. 3) Advice needs to take the form:- "This is what I do", "I like this about my lathe." "I would change this because , "I reckon you can easily handle work of a size between x and y", "Given what you want to do I think you will end up having to get the following extras ". 4) Beware of the experts who can do remarkable things well beyond the normal capability of the machine. Aspire to their skills, turn green with envy, ask them how the blankety blank they managed it, but don't expect to be able to to match them for a very long time. Be conservative in what you expect the machine to do. 5) Thread cutting capability is more useful to the inexperienced as a power feed. Much easier to get a good finish that way especially before you have developed the knack and feel for hand feeding on different materials. At least you can keep one variable properly controlled when experimenting with tools. 6) In the end it will cost 3 times as much as you expect! Concerning Jerrys challenge about doing small work on large lathes how does a 50 thou spindle on a 20" DSG sound! Seriously a really big tool does have to be of impeccable quality to do silly small work but in the HSM context covering lathes up to 10" swing there is very little difference in small work capability once you get beyond the watch making scales. Bigger lathes are cumbersome on small work tho'. HTH. Clive ------- Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 21:32:04 +0200 From: Brad Woolley Subject: Lathe Choices [mlathemods group] Slightly off topic, so my apologies to anyone offended, but I could really use some advice from you knowledgeable guys. I'm 'close to' purchasing an Myford ML7 Super, I say 'close to' as the choice is between this or a brand new HQ400 Chinese multi machine for the same price, a decision I'm finding increasingly difficult, any advice/opinions to help me make this choice would be appreciated. Thanks in Advance Brad ------- NOTE TO FILE: This conversation does get a "little" off the lathe topic as it progresses but is a fun read. We do like fun, right? ------- Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 16:18:04 -0600 From: "HLahantubbe" Subject: Re: Lathe Choices Had I the money or the opportunity to buy one within my means, I would jump all over the Myford in a heart beat. Especially if I were going to use it for precision work. They are wonderful machines, no question. Jim RabidWolf ------- Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 15:26:09 -0800 From: Bob Loesch Subject: Re: Lathe Choices Hi Brad. My own 'uneducated' opinion: GO FOR THE MYFORD! I've never seen any Chinese machine that comes close to the Myford in quality. I don't own a Myford, but I wish I did! Regards, Bob http://home.jps.net/~rrloesch/index.htm http://www.cuckoobob.com ------- Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 18:36:10 -0500 From: "Jean Demers" <1iron.manx~xxsympatico.ca> Subject: Re: Lathe Choices Hi, I had the same choice last fall I opted for the MYFORD, and I am sure glad I did. British quality, lots of information available, parts by Myford etc etc. It's your choice. Cheers Jean -- Montreal, Canada ------- Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 16:42:46 -0800 From: Alan Rothenbush Subject: Re: Lathe Choices You can always buy a small mill afterwards, or add a milling attachment to the Myford. You will never get the Chinese machine to cut FLAT and PARALLEL and PERPENDICULAR. But, if you DO buy the Chinese multi, NEVER cut anything on someone else's Myford. Having said all this, I do own a CHinese multi (my first machine), and for the vast majority of what I do, it's fine. But from time to time, I want to make something "nice", and it just won't do it. I've since purchased other machines that will. I don't regret the multi, as it taught me a lot, but mostly, it taught me to buy something else. Alan Alan Rothenbush, Academic Computing Services, Simon Fraser University, Burnaby, B.C., Canada ------- Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2004 01:38:25 -0000 From: "Harprit Singh Sandhu" Subject: The almighty Myford. I just bought 5 collets for the Myford direct from England. They arrived promptly and were $180.00 so the Myford is not cheap but I would not trade my Super 7 for all the tea in China. It is an exquisitely made lathe. It is a pleasure to use. It will do more than any other lathe its size and do it without hesitation. This is one tough precision instrument and it will ruin you for all other machine tools for the rest of your life. I've had mine for some 30 years and its worth every penny I spent on it new, straight from England. I have almost ever accessory for it. Go for it. This is your life! And you get one shot at it. Live it. Regards Harprit Singh Sandhu ------- Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2004 02:36:56 -0000 From: "jjfear" Subject: Re: Lathe Choices Hi Brad, The obvious choice by members of this group would be the Myford, which would be mine also. But another issue is the general preference for a single purpose tool (machine) over a multipurpose one. You will find many multipurpose machine owners who are extremely happy with their choice and prove tha they can be very useful. But the fact is, tat compromises have to be made, and multi-purpose machines do several things well, but nothing excellently. On the other hand, a lathe like the Myford, can usually be adapted to do a passable job at other tasks. I have friend who has a new Myford Super, and he has actually mounted a Homier mini/mill on the lathe, so that the mill spindle is exactly on the lathe centerline.. He spent a bunch of money improving the quality of the mill to match that of the Myford, but he has a truly functioning dual purpose machine. He is still limited as to the mill capability, though. So, I echo everyone else who has responded. Jerry Fear ------- Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 22:01:45 -0900 From: "Ward M." Subject: RE: Lathe Choices Despite the "British Quality", the Myford should be a much better finished machine! I only say this because I've owned 6 MGs over the years... My favorite MG bumper sticker: "All parts falling off this car are of genuine British workmanship and quality!" Ward M. ------- Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2004 13:55:07 -0000 From: "Peter" Subject: Re: Lathe Choices All i can say is its a good job not every one thinks the same way or you would have to put nasty stickers on all the british tvr's that winning races and all the rolls royces and bentlys that after 80 years on the road are still running smooth as silk. And all those rolls royce engines that keep you up in the sky when you fly in a plane and support you in jump jets in times of war. I would suggest the problems you have had with mg's is more due to poor maintenance by people with the same attitude. The fact that they are still on the road is testiment to them having been put together right in the first place. You can't then slur a nations pride because the people that purchased them never looked after them. Myford make some of the finest lathes in the world. If i could afford one i would have one. Myford are the rolls royce of lathes. -------- Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2004 09:30:56 -0500 From: Arno Martens Subject: Re: Re: Lathe Choices >Myford are the Rolls Royce of lathes I know you are upset, but there is no need to slag off Rolls Royce. Arno ------- Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2004 07:58:20 -0800 From: "Jim E." Subject: Re: Re: Lathe Choices I would just add that make sure you don't have a piece of crap that happens to have the name "Myford" attached to it. The affordability may be indicative of underlying problems. I had the opportunity to by an Atlas 12x40 for $200 - in a definite "kit" form. I passed. On the other hand, the local college has two 1940's Myfords that were given to them by Northrup because they no longer had their original 'tool lathe' precision. I'd give my left gonad for either of them (since I'm already neutered, it'd wouldn't be a great loss...x~xx;-) ). Graciously, Jim Lakewood, CA All Hail Rube Goldberg! ------- Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2004 08:56:38 -0800 From: Bob Loesch Subject: Re: Re: Lathe Choices I would agree wholeheartedly! I had a 1951 MGTC, bought from a neighbor who was constantly complaining about how poorly it was built. "It always needs SOMETHING adjusted..." I got it, properly tuned it up, and found that it didn't need any more work than an American car. Ran like a British clock, which is to say "well", and was a joy to drive. Americans tend to forget, with our wide, paved roads, that England's roads are 1000 years or so old, and were laid out for horses, not cars. One can't drive your ordinary MG/Triumph/Hillman/Morris etc. 75mph all afternoon. They weren't built for that! Anything will break if it's abused. FWIW... ------- Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2004 15:57:02 -0000 From: "viaconsu" Subject: Myford My ML7 is approaching its 50st anniversary, and still going strong. Not only turning, but milling, keyway cutting, and even gun barrel rifling have been done on it! Perfect manuals are "The amateur' Lathe" by L.H.Sparey, and "Myford Series 7 Manual" by Ian Bradley. Still obtainable from Camden, http://www.camdenmin.co.uk Not cheap but very good! Hans ------- Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2004 16:50:12 EST From: catboat15x~xxaol.com Subject: Re: Re: Lathe Choices OK Fellows we all have our preferences. Maybe arrange a tag team match with owners of Atlas, Logans, South Bends and Myfords all in one great big fight. Way oil at 50 paces sounds about right. I just happen to prefer my Atlas since I learned on one similar to the one I now own. Have used a South Bend at work, but not for much other than making little special lab fixtures. No experience with a Logan or Myford, but from the models I have seen made on those lathes they must also be fine machines. (I do like the idea of the "Boring table" that comes on the Myford, but the same device is available on the others.) The Atlas does have one advantage though, the flat ways make wonderful anvils for pounding out things LOL ;P( ------- Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2004 17:00:47 EST From: catboat15x~xxaol.com Subject: Re: Re: Lathe Choices > problems you have had with MG's is more due to poor maintaince Yes, At least once every fortnight go out and tune up the spokes so the wheels stay round. Then re-tune that pair of SU petrol mixers (You may want to buy a special tool for that the same time you buy your spoke wrench.) The only thing I couldn't understand about my MG was for a company that builds cars in a rather wet country makes one that will not run if it is raining, foggy or damp. Just kidding, I loved it! Only real trouble I got into with the MG was when I took Mom's Chevy down to the gas station for her and darn near clipped off a gas pump as I was used to the fast precise steering on the MG while the Chevy needed about three full turns of the steering wheel to make that turn. Was sorry when it got so beat up from teaching five kids how to drive in it and people in big Buicks etc running into me since they could not see my little yellow roadster. ------- Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2004 16:54:52 -0600 (CST) From: Ed Okerson Subject: Re: Re: Lathe Choices I used to just keep a spare intake manifold with tuned SU's on it in the trunk, along with the 5 spare starters. When the SU's on the engine went out of balance and the car wouldn't start, just knock off the intake and put on the spare. Then plan to re-tune on the weekends. :) Still own the car but haven't driven it in nearly 20 years. It is sitting on blocks in a barn in Illinois and I now live in California. Ed Okerson ------- Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2004 20:50:49 -0500 (EST) From: x xx Subject: RE: Re: Lathe Choices (WAY OT) "Ward M." wrote: >>> Unfortunately, these are about as easy to find as an un-burned Triumph TR-7. I wasn't trying to get people upset, I actually liked my MGs, (that's why I've owned six of them), they're just not low maintainence vehicles, even after re-wiring and rebuilding. Given my preferences, I'd really like to have a MG TC in good condition. Ward M. <<< Nobody is upset. Speaking desparagingly of them is an obligatory aspect of loving those misbegotten little puddle jumpers. :-) It's like that little shi-tzu of mine: ugliest, most useless little excuse for a dog you ever saw, but guess where she sleeps? Sam ------- Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2004 09:09:09 +0200 From: Brad Woolley Subject: RE: Lathe Choices Hi Guys, Thanks for all the comments and advice, I think this has just reinforced what I thought, despite the appeal of a bright shiney new machine it is a pretty obvious choice :-). Cheers Brad ------- Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2004 11:00:59 -0800 From: "Nicholas Carter and Felice Luftschein" Subject: Re: New vs. Used I get asked this a lot by potential customers. Basically most of the things that can be bad on a used Taig are easily replaced. The most expensive replacements are the bed, carriage and headstock. I just refurbished a guy's lathe yesterday, wire brushing off a lot of rust on his bed. You don't want a rusty bed. You don't want bad bearings in the headstock unless you are prepared to replace them yourself (generally requires an arbor press). You don't want an older Taig (pre '90+/-), unless the price is low. The lathe I repaired yesterday was from 91 and the tailstock offset system was a less accurate design that Taig has now changed. If the lathe is sold with a motor make sure it's not the 1/10 hp motor they used to sell - which was wimpy. Generally I don't like to pay more than 40-60% of new price for used machines as you never really know what the problems are. Buying on Ebay can result in a bargain but make sure of the condition. You can always post a link to an ebay aucttion here and I'm sure we'll all weigh in on the merits of the deal. Remember that dealers offer a 10% discount usually on a new machine which further lowers the price. The dirtly little secret of hobby machine tool sales is that at least 25%-50% of the buyers never actually use the machines, because they are just hoarding/tool junkie types. This means that it is possible to find a mint Taig (or other lathe) that has had zero use. Just be sure that it didn't deteriorate in storage. I have a near mint Atlas 6" that must have never been used (and honestly I don't use it much myself, but it sure is pretty), and I sold a 12" Atlas from 1936 that also had never been used as far as I could tell. The 12" did have a lot of rust due to poor storage, but cleaned up nicely, bed was unworn as were the babbitt bearings. There are different types of rust, from a light oxidation layer to deep pitting. I have seen people on Ebay claiming the rust was light but the pictures tell a different story. http://www.cartertools.com/nfhome.html ------- NOTE TO FILE: Yes this next message is not technically a lathe comparison but it sure is an interesting look at the past. ------- Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2004 19:49:43 -0000 From: volzmechatronicx~xxyahoo.com Subject: South Bend Lathe Update [Metal_Shapers group] South Bend Lathe is still kicking and selling new machinery, but not from their former location in the old Studebaker Engineering Department building at 400 W. Sample St. They're now located at 3330 West Sample, #1200, South Bend, 46619, way west near Olive St., almost to the old Bendix plant. Fone: 574-289-7771 or 800-245-2843 . Note that their web site-- http://www.southbendlathe.com --still is up and running, but no street addresses. If you're looking for parts for old stuff, LeBlond owns the part business, lock, stock, and barrel. When you contact Rose asking for something at rosemx~xxsouthbendlathe.com know that Rose works for LeBlond and NOT South Bend Lathe. LeBlond web site (owns South Bend Lathe parts business): http://www.leblondusa.com . The 15 machine tools that South Bend currently markets appear to be imports and not of South Bend indigenous manufacturer. Heck, at least they're trying to survive...and learn Mandarin at the same time. Long live South Bend Lathe...where ever you may be. Art (Houston...formerly, in days of youth long since departed, of South Bend. I was there when the employee-owners (ESOP = employee stock ownership plan) of South Bend Lathe went on strike against themselves. Them were the days! Them were the days that whenever you passed by the train station the windows, of the multi-storied Studebaker plant building behind, were festooned with loafing union workers "on break" watching the choo-choos steam on by while tanning their lungs with 'bacco smoke. Them were the days...the live-long days...until Studebaker dropped dead. Empty windows.) ------- Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2004 15:12:33 -0500 From: "Scott S. Logan" Subject: RE: South Bend Lathe Update volzmechatronicx~xxyahoo.com wrote: > If you're looking for parts > for old stuff, LeBlond owns the part business, lock, stock, and > barrel. When you contact Rose asking for something at > xx~xxx.x know that Rose works for LeBlond and NOT South Bend Lathe. NOOOOOOOOOOOOOO! I spoke with Rose on several occasions. She is at South Bend, having LEFT LeBlond last August. While LeBlond has parts for South Bend Lathes, Rose can provide these parts as well. To be honest, I don't know exactly how all this works, but I have spoken with her myself, and she confirmed that people can call her directly for parts and technical support. I do not know (I rather doubt it) whether she has any information parts or technical resources for the SB Shaper, but if I hear anything, I'll pass it along. As you noted, they did move recently (about 2 miles due west), the current contact information is: South Bend Lathe Corp. 3300 W Sample St Ste 1200 South Bend, IN 46619-3078 Business: (800) 245-2843 Business 2: (574) 289-7771 Business Fax: +1 (574) 236-1210 (If that 800 number looks familiar, it ends the same as ours. Their number can also be recalled as 800-24-LATHE) Scott S. Logan, Vice President Tel +1 (888) 99-LATHE Logan Actuator Co. Fax +1 (815) 943-6755 550 Chippewa Rd Email sslx~xxlathe.com Harvard IL 60033-2372 USA Web http://www.lathe.com -------- Date: Thu, 16 Dec 2004 11:11:47 EST From: catboat15x~xxaol.com Subject: Re: Digest Number 2161 [Subject is really Craftsman 109 and discussed in the atlas_craftsman group] In a message dated 12/16/2004, > I have a Craftsman 109-20630 on it's way I don't want to rain on your parade, but the lathe you bought is not an Atlas, but a lathe made by someone else other than Atlas. There is someone I have seen on the net that does support that lathe. The main difference between the lathe you bought is the size of the spindle while the Atlas has a 1 inch spindle your spindle will be about 1/2 inch. For some uses it doesn't make much difference, but the most common failing on the smaller spindle is bending. Sears listed both lathes as Craftsman, but you can always tell the maker of a Sears product as their model numbers have a three digit code ahead of the decimal point that indicates the original manufacturer of a product. If the model starts with 101 it is an Atlas if starting with 109 it is the other manufacturer. (Even our Kenmore refrigerator and vacuum cleaner have that three digit number, then a decimal point with other numbers and that tells the Sears parts guy which dirt bags and ice maker filters to send out) The 109 model may very well do just fine for your desire to turn aluminum castings you just should be aware of what you have. (I had one of those and sent it back as I wanted to turn 4-1/2 inch cast iron locomotive driving wheels) Sears allowed full credit on the Atlas too even though the 109 was used for about two weeks. For a milling attachment Palmgren makes a small attachement with a vice that attaches to the lantern type tool post. but taper attachements I don't know. (You can always offset the tail stock to turn long tapers, and for short tapers you can use the compound slide.) When you get your new toy, be careful! No long loose sleeves, watches, rings etc. rotate work by hand a couple of turns before throwing the switch. Nothing in your shirt pocket either. Remember any tool that can cut metal has no problem in cutting you. Safety glasses and an apron are good to have and to use. Gloves are NOT a safety item around a lathe! Oh, and a bent spindle is the most common defect on the 109, so check that out first of all. John Meacham in the high desert of California 12 inch Atlas, Minimill, HF bandsaw, rusty file ------- Date: Thu, 16 Dec 2004 12:04:03 EST From: catboat15x~xxaol.com Subject: Re: New 109 Lathe In a message dated 12/16/2004 >>You guys are getting me a bit paranoid. I only paid $400 and that includes having it shipped 2400 miles. I think I got a great deal. How is this model compared to the $300 Homier 7x12 (which I can't find on their website anymore) ? << Sorry, we all should not have jumped on you so harshly. But, your lathe should serve you well if you keep in mind the more tender spindle size and the different thread size when purchasing chucks and faceplates. (Although Palmgren does make a milling attachment that may be where bent spindles come from.) Using an end mill held in a drill chuck is asking for disaster. Don't do it use only collets or milling cutter holder as the sideways pressure on an end mill will pull it out of a chuck and disaster strikes really quickly. The 7 X 10 lathes from Harbor Fright, Hornier, Micromark, Enco and other places are kind of a gamble (as are the Minimills from the same places). Most of those tools from the Far East have real strange leadscrews and divisions. (Tried to take 16 TPI screws and nuts and mark the dials in 1/1000 which leaves 0.0625 left over if you go a full revolution.) I do have one of those Chinese mini-mills and like someone commented it is kind of like buying a kit that you must assemble to get a useable tool. Those tools are kind of thrown together and come complete with molding sand, chips and need to be adjusted. IMOHO old American or English iron beats the "built to a price" Chinese stuff. If you do decide to get one of the Chinese 7 X 10 lathes I would recommend MicroMark as they do replace the lead screws with true inch threads before sending them out. Also there is an outfit called "Little Machine Shop" that carries parts and accessories for those. (I just bought a small rotary table from them and every thing "almost fits" still need to get out the needle files and do the final fitting that should have been done at the factory) If I were you, a young fellow, I would take and use the 109 and for what you want to do it may serve you well the rest of your life, or at least let you learn what exactly you want and can afford for your workshop. We hobby people are a strange bunch. Some of us only make wood or metal ball point pens, ship models, or melt and cast our own metals. I use my tools to make live steam engines, have made a small diesel model air plane engine and live steam locomotives. I will be 80 years old next year (damn, almost here) and been in this hobby (as well as many others) since shortly after WW 2. By this time I know millions of the wrong things to do, but a very few right things to do. Learn, have fun, stay safe. John Meacham in the high desert of California ------- Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2004 19:41:52 -0000 From: "jimmie_watt" Subject: Disappointed with the Taig lathe [taigtools group] Hi, except for machining very small pieces the swing over bed and carriage doesn't justify the price. Machining Alu or brass is ok if you are doing cuts under 1 inch diam. But all things considered even the tools needed to satisfy the operation of this lathe are hard to build. I hesitated before buying this tool but the economy isn't worth the price tag. Unless you make watches and I think it's not everyone who does, it should be mentioned in the publicity that this tool is for machining parts of 10 cubic inches at the most and at great expense. Robert Mc Dougall ------- Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2004 14:23:57 -0800 From: Don Rogers Subject: Re:Disappointed with the Taig lathe Robert, I routinely cut 2.250" D 303 Stainless steel on my Taig lathe. I turn pucks of about 1" length. I did have to have a local machine shop cut the rod to lengths for me, but turning them is not a problem. Perhaps another look at the way you cut is in order. Don ------- Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2004 18:02:04 -0000 From: "Ed Chesnut" Subject: Re: Disappointed with the Taig lathe I'm sorry you are not happy with your Taig lathe. But since you aren't, moving on to another machine which satisfies your needs seems quite appropriate. I wish you well on your next machine. I've had mine for almost three years now and am still just tickled pink with it. I make small parts in aluminum, plastic, brass and steel. Ed ------- Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2004 21:19:17 -0800 From: Don Rogers Subject: Re: Disappointed with the Taig lathe >I think my cutting tools are not adequate ( HSS ) What can I do ??? Robert, I don't have a silver bullet for you. I'll share what I have found though. First, any large pieces require some spindle speed adjustments. For OD turning, this isn't so bad as you can find a speed where harmonic vibrations don't set up and cause chattering. Facing though is a whole different problem. The rigidity of the Taig, or lack there of, will require a different spindle speed at 2" dia, vs 1", vs 1/4". This isn't really different from a big tool room lathe. It's just that the surface speed of the tool has a narrower band on a Taig than on a big iron lathe. My cutting was done with HSS tools. I gave up on the carbide bits for a lot of operations. I just don't have the experience with them to get consistent results. Some times it's good some times not. Some of the HSS tool bits I'm using were ones I made when on my Apprenticeship some 40 years ago. Some I whacked out on my lapidary grinder (this is a whole different subject and I'll jump into this on another post). Anyway, no science, just make sure the tool has some rake, and clearance for the job at hand, and make sure it is set on the center line of the work. Then make sure it is in a solid holder, Make sure your lathe is set up tightly, and then make some test cuts. Just remember that the Taig will not pull a blue colored chip 1/8" wide. It has it's limits so respect them and it will treat you well. I found that the Carbide tools required more pressure and then they would bite and jump into the work, while the HSS tools could be eased into the job and you ended up with a better finish, and a more accurate one. My main complaint with the Taig is the lack of a power feed. There are a lot of different solutions to this. One would be one of the QC Gearbox setups for the Taig. I think that would resolve 90% of the complaints about rough finish. Facing is still going to be a problem though on large pieces. A CNC set up could resolve this by using a constant velocity feed, IE turning faster at the center than the OD. One last point, for large pieces, use the 4 jaw chuck vs the 3 Jaw. You can't get the 3 jaw to lock down the work like you can with the 4 jaw. Don ------- NOTE TO FILE: The Taig (and Sherline) are precision machines capable of producing excellent work for smaller projects typical of many home hobbyists. They are limited in the size of work, but not in quality of work. For some incredible lathe projects (including some bigger than normally tackled by most users of small lathes) see: John Bentley's site http://www.jrbentley.com/ or Nick Carter's http://www.cartertools.com/ or Sherline's http://www.sherline.com/ And when you switch to a small retirement property, you can take them with you, store them in the closet, and use them on the kitchen table -- if your spouse is out shopping :-) ------- Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2005 00:31:12 EST From: catboat15x~xxaol.com Subject: Re: Digest Number 2278 [atlas_craftsman group] My feeling about DROs is that just like the dials the tools come with (if you take up the backlash properly) indicate the position of the slides. (I am looking at lathe work as that is what I am most familiar with.) If you don't set your cutter on the center line neither a DRO or the dials will show what is really happening to the work piece. The same for a difference in deflection of the tool between a heavy and light cut. So putting a DRO on a machine will not make it more accurate, but it is easier to read the numbers on a display than on that little dial, and do the arithmetic. I think they would be real handy when doing metric on an inch machine and visa versa. The other thing is the mounting of the scales, they MUST be exactly parallel to the motion of the slides, otherwise the DRO will be measuring the slant distance on the DRO not the slide distance and tool position. I am not against DROs either purchased or DIY (In fact would probably assist my old worn out eye balls) but taking a junker of a lathe and adding a couple of DROs will not make a silk purse out of that sow's ear. Our favorite tools like our Atlas or Craftsman are not really heavy duty tool room lathes, but were sold for what they are. A hobby lathe, or a shop lathe where a bit of lathe work is needed for various operations. (Although during WW2 I saw lines of Atlas lathes in some machine shops being used 24/7 for defense work.) (Maybe that is where some of the clapped out machines come from.) A common use was to have a Sears or Wards lathe in an auto repair place for occasional use and also on a farm to have a tool for maintenance. The point I am making is that adding a couple of DROs will not transform a Craftsman or Atlas into a Monarch or Sheldon tool room lathe. I love my 12 inch Craftsman so I can talk about it, use it, enjoy watching the swarf peel off and get pretty good results of making part B fit part A and can tell the truth about it too. John Meacham in the high desert of California 12 inch Atlas, Minimill, HF bandsaw, rusty file ------- Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2005 07:11:43 -1000 (HST) From: benedict-listx~xxhawaii.rr.com Subject: Re: Taig quality? [taigtools] On Tue, 29 Mar 2005, David wrote: > Hello Guys, > this is not meant to put the Taig brand of tools down, or anyone who > owns and uses them. But it is a question I feel I must ask. > I joined this list to learn about the Taig lathe, what it can do, > can it do what I want, ease of use, etc. > However, I'm seeing that the Taig lathe or Mill seem to need some final > finishing touches before they will operate well, or even accurately. > Is this common for the Taig brand of tools? How about other brands of > tools, such as Sherline, or some of the import small lathes? > Or am I just observing many users of the Taig that just can't leave a > tool alone? they need to put their own Mark on the tool before they are > satisfied. I had a Grandfather that couldn't stand buying a piece of > furniture and just using it. He always, and I do mean always had to > make some change to it. Sort of to put his Mark on it. Sounds odd, but > that's what he needed to do. Hahahaha! Good observations! I think it's a little of each. Pretty much any tool that shows up in the mail is going to need a little tweaking to get it running well. Screws work loose, things get vibrated out of position, etc. If you look at what's involved in setting up a full sized machine tool, it usually involves a guy coming out to set it up. Smaller tools are pretty much the same. The difference is whoever buys the smaller tool does the setting up. And I have yet to meet a machinist who didn't tweak from time to time, even when it wasn't strictly necessary. I guess in a way I'm like your grandfather in that regard. To some extent the makers of the Taig tools know this, so they stuck T-slots all over the place. It makes modifying the tools that much easier. One of the first things I did to my Taig lathe was to add dial indicators to each axis. Taig doesn't offer a DRO system for their lathe (Sherline does), so this was my answer. And because of all the T-slots, only one of the indicators needed any drilling or tapping on the lathe. The other two just bolted down into the T-slots. > I called a Taig dealer today, which turned out to be an Ex-Dealer, but > he did have a few remarks about the Taig lathes. In short he said the > Taig is a good unit, but it does need some TLC before it will work well. > He also mentioned a few of the accessories also needed work done > to them before they would fit cleanly, or move smoothly. > Is this a quality control issue? Or since the Taig is a low cost > machine, it's that you get what you pay for? You just need to Fuss with > it, and then Baby it to get it working, and to keep it working? > Like I said, I mean no offense. Just not wanting to run into unexpected > problems that everyone here knows and accepts,and actually enjoy putting > the final touches on their new machine. No offense taken, and your points are valid. When the Taig lathe comes out of the box, one of the first steps is to lap the carriage to the ways. So yeah, I could definitely call that "TLC required". I think you can also get the lathes pre-lapped, but you pay more for it. The mill is a lot more turnkey (no lapping required), but still there's some setup to be done when it shows up. For starters the column and the mill base come as two separate units. You have to align them and bolt them together. Next, gibs and screws can work loose, so it's worth checking everything. But as far as the machine being ready to go, I was making parts the same day I got mine. It's not too painful. Not sure what the dealer meant about accessories not moving smoothly. Most of the accessories I got were for the lathe, and most of those were things like chucks, which just thread onto the spindle nose. The only accessories I can think of that move are the vertical slide for the lathe, the tailstock for the lathe, and the rotary table for the mill. I didn't have problems with any of those. By way of comparison, I've got a Taig and a friend of mine has a Minilathe. He'd used my Taig for years before he got his. The extra beef in the Minilathe and the screw cutting capacity are what sold him on it. But it took a lot of work (a month worth of evenings) before it got to the point where he was satisfied with it. My lathe was up and running the same day I got it. All in all I've been quite happy with my Taig. Most of the modifications I've made to it have been more of the tweaking variety than the x~xx$^x~xx!!! variety. And as for babying it to keep it running smoothly, um... If I was supposed to be doing that I didn't know. I've abused mine pretty thoroughly. A periodic cleaning and adjustment, and it's good to go. Tom ------- Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2005 22:41:01 -0500 From: "Carol & Jerry Jankura" Subject: RE: Taig quality? Hi, David: I can't speak for Taig, but the two Sherline tools I purchased (model 2000 mill, model 4400 lathe) required a little assembly (put the motor on the headstock, put the headstock on the column sort of things) and then alignment (setting the machine so that the spindle is parallel to the ways for the lathe and the spindle is perpendicular to the milling machine table for the mill). Once that was done, the tools were ready to go. BTW, I'm a member of this list because the techniques used for either Sherline or Taig are similar, and there are a lot of bright folks on this list who are willing to share. Regardless of which machine you purchase, I'd recommend joining both the Sherline and Taig lists. Jerry Jankura TurboCNC Development Team ------- Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2005 04:23:28 -0000 From: "gmdagena2000" Subject: Re: Thinking to buy 109.20630, need some help In atlas_craftsmanx~xxyahoogroups.com, "kirkbecnel" wrote: > I am wondering what is a good price for a model 109.20630. It has > basically just the three jaw chuck and no other accessories. I've had a 109 and still own my 7x10 mini-lathe. My 109 was special, one of the previous owners replaced the 1/2-20 spindle with a 3/4-16 TPI spindle allowing the use of Taig and standard Sherline chucks. The spindle still bent. The bed was limber. The 7x10, despite the electronic nightmares I've had with mine (2 0em controllers, two OEM motors, one western make control killed by second OEM motor failure) after 4 years of ownership is STILL 10x better. The 7x10 has a fairly rigid bed, hardy HS, and uses #2MT tooling. I've fixed the electric issues on my 7x10 making a step pulley for the end of the spindle, and using an extra western make 3-phase motor and western make VFD I had left over from another project. Mechanically, the 7x machines are solid (for their price). The 109 is better electrically (you generally provide the motor), but it is mechanically, very inferior. The one I had had a twisted, limber bed, tweaked spindle and a back gear that created one hell of a racket when used. A sherline or Taig is much better for the real small work a 109 would be any good at doing. Gabe ------- Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2005 14:34:30 -0500 From: "Joe Smith" Subject: RE: Thinking to buy 109.20630, need some help Grizzly is one of the companies to buy from if you value service. Most of the import 7x lathes are made by Seig and are the same. Micro Mart has a longer bed, inch leadscrews and a larger motor for more money. There is another model that currently is sold by Northern that I like better. It was originally imported by Homier. I like this model better than the Seig. BTW I have a clean Atlas 12x36 also. I also have 2 9x20 imported lathes. If I had to drop back to one it would be a tough choice. ------- Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2005 16:09:13 -0400 From: "mertbaker" Subject: Re: Thinking to buy 109.20630, need some help I bought a 7x10 from HF when they had free shipping, and because it was on sale & I was curious. I already had a 12x36 Jet, and my old DB Unimat bought 50 years ago or so. I got the 7x out of the box, wiped off the grease, set it on a bench and tried the speeds & levers, and there it sat for nearly a year. Until one day I had the 2 jaw chuck on the 12x, and needed a bigger 3 jaw than on the Uni. Since then, the 7x10 has been a workhorse in my shop. The Uni is now used for firing pins & other watchmaker lathe stuff. I bought a Griz 7x12 (really a 7x14) & have a 4 jaw on that one. I have 2 other 7xs from different importers, bought on sale. To my mind, to start learning the lathe hobby, there is no better bargain than a 7x12, if you want new. I use the Uni for stuff up to 1.4" dia, the 7xs for stuff up to 1" or so, & the 12x for larger stuff, like beer can mortars. Mert Baker ------- NOTE TO FILE: As in almost every discussion of a domestic product, no matter how old or shaky or imperfect of design, there are always many good intentioned folks who defend it over an import no matter how good a value that import is in the experience of actual owners. A net search will find complete (and very long) arguments. Only you can decide whether a particular, worn domestic product is worth its current inflated price tag, and the many hours and dollars likely needed to make it function well. Some folks have been very satisfied with their new and fairly inexpensive imports that are ready to be put to work (or play) after a bit of cleaning and tuning. Either way, keep an open mind. ------- Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2005 19:25:43 -0000 From: "smalltugs" Subject: Re: Is it worth buying an Atlas? In atlas_craftsmanx~xxyahoogroups.com, "velbloud" wrote: > I am thinking about getting a slightly bigger lathe than my Craftsman > 109. I was just wondering if buying an older 10" Atlas is really worth > it (can you hold close tolerances, can it take heavier cuts etc.) as > opposed to buying the 9" import. How good these machines really are? > What advantages do they have? What are the disadvantages/weak points? If you want a solid lathe, "heavier" even than the 9x, then look into the 8x (HF8x12, LM8x14, same lathe). (Notice the bed width and weight.) I just did a complete review that includes comparison data for the 7x, 8x, 9x, A/C 6, SB 9, and A/C 12 lathes. You can find it at www.annisquamgranite.com (third button down). I am not connected with any manufacturer, distributor, or retailer. The 8x is a precision lathe that no one seems to know much about (hearsay and rumor notwithstanding). It is an excellent alternative when you have outgrown your 7x or A/C 6" but are still on a budget. You do have to forego the 9x's "half" QCGB, Atlas' back gear, and a tumbler lever. That's why I still have my Atlas 12" and SB 9", but I have found the 8x to be a real worker that's earned its valuable floor space in my shop. Just a suggestion for your decision making research. My review includes good points, not-so-good points, hard numbers, vendor evaluation, history, value, some easy and not-so-easy mods, and other info with plenty of pics. Regards, Mal ------- Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2006 21:34:08 -0000 From: "JB" Subject: Your opinion? - Which would you keep? 12" 101.07403 or 10" QC42 [atlas_craftsman group] I've found myself in the unusual position of wanting a lathe real bad to having two of them. I can only keep one of them. I'll sell the other. Which would you keep and why? (If I knew a little more about them, I could probably decide for myself but I'm a complete and total rookie and need the advice. Assume both are in excellent condition. 1. Craftsman Atlas 12L 101.07403 Standard Change Gear - 54 inch bed 2. Craftsman Atlas 10 inch QC42 Quick change gear box - 42 inch bed I don't know if I really need the extra swing and length of the 12 or not. I'll probably just play with it and tinker but then I really hate to give it up. From what I've seen, more parts and info are available for the 12" but the 10" is really nice with the gearbox and more manageable size. (But it seems that literature and parts are much harder to find on the 10.) ??? ------- Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2006 16:46:59 EST From: gto69ra4x~xxaol.com Subject: Re: Your opinion? - Which would you keep? 12" 101.07403 or ... The 12" was only made for Sears, the 10" was only sold by Atlas. I think the 10" had a longer production life and parts availability seems identical to me. For me, I would prefer the 10" lathe for the additional strength and the quickchange box. That makes a huge difference in using, and the number of threads you can cut for a given number of gears. But it you also need to consider condition. Which has the better bed, better feed screws and nuts, better bearings, better gibs, etc. If some minor stuff for one lathe needs work you can pull it off the other--most internal parts are identical. Also think about which one you have more accessories for, if you do. But again I'd take the 10". I have one and it's great to use. I'd probably want a larger, heavier lathe before I'd need a slightly longer bed or another couple inches of swing. GTO(John) ------- Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2006 22:05:37 -0000 From: "JB" Subject: Thanks GTO... all good points... I was hoping to hear from someone who had one of them or both. Actually, the 10 inch is in much better shape but I have fewer accessories for it. If I sell the 12, I should be able to buy some. Both bed ways are 3/8" and both machines have Timken Roller Bearings. Thanks for the advice. JB ------- Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2006 06:25:21 -0000 From: "KDSpriggs" Subject: Re: Your opinion? - Which would you keep? 12" 101.07403 or ... > I've found myself in the unusual position of wanting a lathe real > bad to having two of them. I can only keep one of them You have already got some good information from the other replies, however I don't think you can ever decide which is the best one for you to keep until you decide what you are going to use it for. I know there is no 100% way you are going to know that but unless you can see some real need in the future for the longer bed and the larger swing I would choose the QC 10 inch. If you want to take the time to change the gears there is nothing that you can do with the QC that you can't do with the change gear model. I think after you get out the charts, dig through the gears to find the correct ones, take out the greasy ones that are in the lathe, read the chart again, install the correct gears, get little strips of paper to space them correctly; then put away the unused gears, lube the ones you just put in, find out there is something noisy, get some more strips of paper, go through the adjustment process again, clean your hands and do whatever you started out to do (such as threading). As soon as you are done with that you can repeat all of the above process to get it set back for regular turning. Or you can move two little levers a couple of times and accomplish the same thing. If I didn't have three Atlas/Craftsman lathes I would ask you how you ever ended up with two. ------- Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2006 17:19:42 EST From: gto69ra4x~xxaol.com Subject: Re: Are you saying the 10" Atlas is a stronger machine? > Is the quality of the Atlas that much better than the machine they > made for sears? Interesting comment. It's the same quality machine. My comment about strength comes from the fact that the 12" lathe shares most of its parts with the 10". The additional capacity is there without much change in the machine's design, so a 12" lathe would be more flexible than the 10". The old-style Craftsman lathes had no difference in the ways. The later models (with the square headstock) were the ones that were beefed up. The old ones could be had with either plain bearings or rollers, newer ones with rollers only. GTO(John) ------- Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2006 21:52:11 -0600 From: Jon Elson Subject: Re: Re: Are you saying the 10" Atlas is a stronger machine? Paul wrote: >My 12x36 Craftsman lathe has ways that are 1.5" wide and 0.38" (+/-) >thick. The thickness varies more than I would have expected along the >ways. Its vintage is 1937. On machines which have not been reground, the way thickness (vertical) will measure 0.3750 or 0.5000 +/- 0.0001 at the ends, where there presumably is no wear. I have been amazed to mike these out and find that the factory was able to keep tolerances THAT tight. The front-back reading is IIRC 5.750", with less than +/- .001" tolerance. Since they milled everything on the bed with one mounting, everything comes out parallel from one side to the other. If your bed is really varying along the length, it must have been reground at some time. Jon ------- NOTE TO FILE: The following thread "Lathe recommendation" has been divided into 2 parts. The Boring how-to aspects are recorded in the Boring file -- March 2006. The choice of lathe rapidly became a very heated conversation and those messages are reported here in the Lathe Comparisons file. (The original question was about how to bore engine cylinders, and whether a lathe could do the job.) ------- Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2006 04:36:08 -0800 From: "James Early" Subject: Re: Lathe recommendation [LittleEngines] From: Rick Rowlands > Buy an older American made lathe. They are on ebay all the time. Go to > www.practicalmachinist.com and put a post on the forum for what you are > looking for. Don't buy one of the HF lathes, they are junk. Rick Here are the words of ignorance and prejudice. JWE Long Beach, CA ------- Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2006 08:07:10 -0500 From: "Rick Rowlands" Subject: Re: Lathe recommendation OK fine, buy the junk from HF. For what you would spend on a Harbor Freight lathe you could get twice the machine if you did some searching and found a higher precision used machine. Nothing to do with prejudice and ignorance, just the facts. Why are you prejudiced against American built machines? Rick ------- Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2006 09:49:17 EST From: DTollenaarx~xxAOL.COM Subject: Re: Lathe recommendation 3/21/2006, imsteamer21x~xxhotmail.com writes: > i agree with rick 100% > dont buy any chinese crap especially harbor freight as it is > the bottom of the barrel Hello: While I may agree that the Harbor Freight machines are the lowest on the food chain, I strongly disagree that all Chinese machines are CRAP. Fred, you are wrong in that statement. There are several brands out there that are made in China, that are very good. Jet, ENCO, Grizzly, and Blue Ridge Tools, all have a selection to choose from, and are excellent machines. I would not purchase a "Junk" US made machine, before I took a close look at one of the above "New" machines. I, myself, have an ENCO 12" x 36" Gear Head lathe, purchased in 1990, that has preformed to the highest level. I also own a Logan, 16" x 60", 1975 model that is also an very good machine. I really feel that you are wrong in your blanket statement Fred. Dirk ------- Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2006 15:09:03 +0000 From: j.w.earlyx~xxatt.net Subject: Re: Lathe recommendation Rick: I own American and imported machines and in their place each performs as needed. If the machine does not perform I do not keep it and move on to a better one. I had one of those American made lathes that Sears sold under the Craftsman name back in the 40s and 50s. Bad machine for metal, usable barely for wood. I had one of the latter Atlas/ Craftsman 918 split head lathes that look like a small South Bend, decent but a little flexy and with a poor compound design that made a lot of chatter. I had one of the later block head Atlas lathes and it was a real bad joke to work with and makes the HF 7x10 look like a precision jewelers lathe. I have had a Sherline, a Unimat and a Taig and the Unimat was decent for tiny work. The Taig I turned into a tire grinder for truing RC car tires with a sand paper block. Now people can do decent work on these machines by going slow and taking time to do the job, lots of time. I also have a 9" Model A South Bend that has been my main home machine since 1968 as well as 4 7x10-12 lathes for small precise work and threading. I also have a 9x20 that gets used on a regular basis for roughing out parts to be finished on the 7x machines. I also have a South Bend Heavy 10 that is being restored. Except for the South Bend machines most other American made home shop machines have very little if anything to offer over the imports of their same size and configuration for the price. Now the US could still make good and competitive machines if they wanted to, but union workers, greedy management and a desire by both to retire rich at age 30 has devastated our competitive edge in the world market. Who is going to pay $20,000.00 for a lathe that is not better functionally than an import one that sells for $2,000.00. Only a fool that's who and it seems there are not too many of them because look at the sales figures. JWE Long Beach, CA "A competent and self-confident person is incapable of jealousy in anything. Jealousy is invariably a symptom of neurotic insecurity." Robert A. Heinlein ------- Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2006 15:29:47 +0000 From: j.w.earlyx~xxatt.net Subject: Re: Lathe recommendation Fred: Read my response to Rick and maybe improve your education on machines a little because your prejudice is as little based on facts as his. For the person who does not need a 12 inch swing or better machine there is absolutely no American made machine that can work as well as the 7x or 9x machines. True they both need a couple of fiddles to get them up to speed, but a whole lot less than a well worn used machine would take. Can you deliver a 7' or 9" American made lathe in first class condition out the door to the customer for less than $1500, I think not. I have two of the best American made machines in this size class and I paid 30 years ago that much for my 9" without chucks or tooling. I paid that much for a Heavy 10 five years ago in a basket and was glad to get it for that because the bed and saddle show all most no wear and the bed is hardened. I bought my HF 9x20 for $600 including tax and spent about 10 hours making the heavy duty compound clamp, the 7/16 cross feed screw and the tumbler reverse and not I can take deeper cuts without chatter or dig in than I can on the South Bend 9". I agree with the buy American thought, but if there is nothing to buy in the price and machine capability area where I need one then I will go with the best import I can find. Performance and value count most with me and others who know how to reason not some unprovable exhortic concept of the true faith. JWE Long Beach, CA "I am free, no matter what rules surround me. If I find them tolerable, I tolerate them; if I find them too obnoxious, I break them. I am free because I know that I alone am morally responsible for everything I do." Robert A. Heinlein ------- Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2006 15:52:09 -0500 From: Donald Qualls Subject: Re: Lathe recommendation Rick Rowlands wrote: > Nothing to do with prejudice and ignorance, just the facts. Why are you > prejudiced against American built machines? Why are you prejudiced against Chinese made machines? I have a Homier Speedway 7x12, identical to the Harbor Freight except for a 2" longer bed and slightly altered tailstock to give a true 12" between centers. It's no powerhouse; I can't take a .125" cut in steel, but I can take .040" (on the cross slide) on mild steel or annealed drill rod with a sharp HSS tool and correct cutting speed, even in power feed. The threading gears are plastic -- which, as I found out a while back, means if I run the carriage into the headstock or speed control box under power feed, an inexpensive gear will fail instead of breaking or twisting something expensive and hard to replace. It has a variable speed motor, (plastic) back gear, and tumble reverse for the lead screw; power feed and threading are stock out of the crate. Yes, these lathes have well known shortcomings -- all of which are fairly easy to correct. The fit and finish are much better now than they were twenty years ago when these lathes entered the American market. Mine required only cleaning off the packing grease and adjusting the gibs to be ready to use, though I'll admit I haven't turned a faceplate and measured whether it's .001" concave or two or three times that. It was the work of a single afternoon to enclose the carriage feed gears to keep chips out of them. I haven't even found it necessary to adjust the tailstock for taper, though I also haven't yet had to set it over; when I do, I'll probably take the time to make an adjuster. Yes, you can get a used American or European machine for about the same money -- with no more tooling than came with this lathe (3-jaw chuck and 4-position tool holder, dead center, and empty oil bottle), unknown levels of wear on the ways, chips in the lead screws, junk in the apron, and rust in places you can't see. For my money, I'll buy the new machine; it'll be at least 20-30 years before I even have to think about ways wear, likely much longer than that unless I start using the machine every day. It's a lot less work to clean up and adjust in a new machine like this than it is to clean up, restore, regrind, rescrape, derust, and repaint a used one. And I can buy parts and tooling with a few mouse clicks. After you use everything you know and can find out to make what you're certain is the right decision, and it's too late to change things or back out -- you'll find out something that would have reversed the whole thing for you, if you'd only known in time. Donald Qualls, aka The Silent Observer http://silent1.home.netcom.com Opinions expressed are my own -- take them for what they're worth and don't expect them to be perfect. ------- Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2006 16:30:10 -0500 From: "Rick Rowlands" Subject: Re: Lathe recommendation My remarks were specifically directed toward Harbor Freight machines. I too have seen some good Chinese built equipment. Rick ------- Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2006 21:46:09 +0000 From: j.w.earlyx~xxatt.net Subject: Re: Lathe recommendation Rick: And I will state there is no definable difference between HF and any of the other distributors of PRC machines. You can get a jewel or lemon from any of them and my 9x20 from HF is a jewel for sure compared to a couple of Jet equivalents I have worked with. JWE Long Beach, CA ------- Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2006 20:13:24 -0500 From: "Jim Dunmyer" Subject: Re: Lathe recommendation JW, I have one of those 7X10 Mini-Lathes from HF and use it a lot. Much more than I ever figured when I bought it. A few years ago, the HF flyers showed that lathe for $369.00; I kept thinking, "how good can it be...?" One day, I looked at it on their Web Site and saw it for $329.00; my credit card caught on fire as I yanked it from my wallet. After receiving it, I found the 7X10 MiniLathe group on Yahoo, along with a bunch of web sites with information on the machine. Did all the recommended mods, bought a 4-jaw chuck, and got a QC toolpost setup from LittleMachineShop.Com, along with a couple extra tool holders. My buddy & I are building a set of H&M engines from casting kits and the HF lathe has been running steadily for the past couple of weeks. Haven't even turned on the light over the 19" LeBlond! I'd hate for the 7X10 to be my only lathe, and I'd be much happier if it was a couple inches longer, but it works great for what it is and what it costs. You do have to take light cuts if you want accuracy, but it does a better job of parting off than my first lathe did. That one was a 9" Atlas, vintage 1933, with BELT "back gears". See http://www.lathes.co.uk/atlas/page2.html for a picture of it. I also put the 7X10 on a plywood base and made a box to fit over it, similar to a portable sewing machine. It now goes to the engine show at Buckley, MI with me so I can make parts for the antique machinery there. If I was making recommendations to the original poster, I'd tell him to start with a BridgePort w/boring head (actually, I already did!), then add a lathe along the lines of a 7X12 or 7X14 size. Of course, he can buy a lot of $60.00 boring jobs from a machine shop for that money. Jim lower SE Michigan, USA http://www.oldengine.org/members/jdunmyer ------- Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2006 01:41:36 -0000 From: "Jim Evans" Subject: Re: Lathe recommendation Like any company, you need to know what you are buying. I have a Harbor Freight 12x36 lathe. It is the exact same lathe sold by Enco, Jet, Grizzly, and others. This lathe was perfectly accurate right out of the box and is 1000 times what my old Atlas 10" lathe was. When there is an auction around here with a US made lathe on it, it is usually a worn out POS that has been abused by many people. Guess what? It sells for more than what this Chinese lathe cost. Parts are available from several suppliers. Try to get parts for your old American lathe - ebay is usually the store of choice. It may make you fell good, but buying a used lathe at an auction does nothing to keep Americans in employed and in business - unless you count the auctioneer. Jim ------- NOTE TO FILE: Our reporting of this comparison ends here. If you wish to read more, look in the archives of the LittleEngines group at Yahoo. ------- From: "Clive Foster" clive_fosterx~xxtalk21.com Date: Sun May 28, 2006 0:46pm(PDT) Subject: Re: myford lathe copy [Metal_Shapers] > Kenny, > Unless the lathe is well tooled or you already have another lathe I > would give serious thought to buying it. I have several lathes that > I am fond of but bought a South Bend model A 9 inch when I tired of > looking for accessories for the others. > Most of the Myford goodies even though they are listed here are > being sold out of the UK and believe me you won't like the shipping > cost. Then again I am the last person to give advice -- Kenny: The one I saw in the flesh did not give that warm feeling of being well and competently made. Finish was the painted with a used dishcloth variety and some of the construction showed evidence of fits where it touches assembly/manufacture. Also, in the UK at least, the importers did not have the reputation for careful checking of machine supplied or vetting of suppliers. Please remember that in the UK these machines were among the first flush of Far Eastern imports where quality was er "variable" in the extreme. The anecdotally diabolical reputation then associated with FE imports was justly earned and only partially masked by sales to those too inexperienced to know better. I wouldn't be too sure that Myford accessories actually fit either. Also the overall design concept and layout of a Myford has certain intrinsic flaws which require quality materials and workmanship to avoid if a long lived machine tool of useful performance is to be produced. Exploiting sufficient care and quality however results in a more capable and versatile machine than would be possible with a more intrinsically tolerant design. In particular I'd take pains to ensure that the bed has not twisted before putting money down. Twisting is not unknown on Myfords, usually due to extremely unsympathetic installation rather than intrinsic fault tho'. These early FE import machine were produced from fairly green castings and self distortion with ageing is a very real possibility. Careful reading between the lines of the Lathes UK site will steer you as to what else to look out for. As ever its the particular machine must be judged not the general reputation a good example of a poorly thought of marque can be an excellent buy. I personally would not give a Myford of any description workshop room, not even bed and breakfast a gift to sell. Unless you are doing work of appropriate size, need the versatility to do everything in a lathe only workshop and can get a good example with plenty of tooling and accessories the bang per buck ratio is too poor. In general a Myford is a modellers machine being too small to do real world work. The poor buck/bang ratio seems to apply to Boxfords too. Southbends do better but many are very old. Currently Denford (Viceroy) and, especially, Kerry seem to be out of favour on the UK market. I've seen Kerry's sold for less than pre-war Drummond, Portass and similar antique machines simply because few people have heard of it despite being a strong lathe with modern mod cons fitting 5 inch centre height and real world work capability into very little more space than a Myford. Bottom line is that any half decent Myford 7 series will be £600 + and for that money you are in the real lathe bracket. Friend Mike picked up a good Colchester Master with loads of tooling for £750 off E-bay. Clive ------- From: "casy_chx~xxtbwil.ch" casy_chx~xxtbwil.ch Date: Sun May 28, 2006 4:46pm(PDT) Subject: Re: myford lathe copy Clive: Your info is interesting, amazing, critical and unfortunately true. For along time I wanted a Myford Super 7, but prices were and are still far too high. It is unbelievable how UK people seem to give a lot of money as soon as they read the brand Myford, even for an MT2 which has nothing to do with the manufacturer. I finally got one in a very good state in my country for what I found a reasonable price. After 2 years I found an AVM AM-125 (10") with length and cross feeds and I must confess that the Super 7 cannot compete at all with that machine. A German modeller bought the Myford over an auction I had put on and so I got back the price I paid for it. As a story, I wanted to change the feed screws together with the feed nuts on both carriages. The spare parts were so ridiculously high that by adding the same amount of money on the price I sold the Myford, I could get a professional lathe with no distortion, no backlash, feed changing through 2 knobs, 8 speeds through gears and a lever and extremely stable. Having already a larger lathe, the lathe I wanted had to fit in the length of the Myford and the Italian machine did. The only positive thing about the Myford Super 7 is that it is quite superior to the Atlas 10" which I also owned for a while. An amazing machine ringing the bells with its Zamak gears. Jean-Claude, Switzerland www.homestead.com/turnandmill ------- Bench Machines vs. Full Size [LittleEngines] Posted by: "neil85020" neilbfieldx~xxcox.net Date: Sat Aug 12, 2006 1:03 pm (PDT) I'd like to get some discussion going on a question I've had for some time. I'm an accomplished machinist's.I've built a couple of Hit `n Miss Engines.and I do work for others for pay on occasion. I have a well- tooled 9" South Bend lathe and an 8 x 30 Grizzly knee type milling machine with R-8 spindle, DRO and power feed. My question; for small engine projects is there any advantage in having a bench type (Sherline, Taig, etc.) lathe and milling machine? I could probably afford to purchase although I do not like the idea of the captive tool requirements and the seemingly duplication of tooling. I've machined quite a few small parts on my 9" SB and my mill, frequently using magnifying glasses. I easily grind special tools as required. My initial reaction is that I can always go smaller on a larger lathe and milling machine but not larger on comparable smaller machines. I have Rudy Kouhoupt's books and greatly admire his micro machinist work but I note that he also had a 9" South Bend. In his books he never broached the subject as I bring it up here. I'm sure that a lot of you have some definite opinions on the subject. I would like to hear them.convince me one way or another. Neil Butterfield ------- Re: Bench Machines vs. Full Size Posted by: "corey renner" vandal968x~xxgmail.com Date: Sat Aug 12, 2006 1:28 pm (PDT) The more machines the better IMHO, but it certainly is not necessary and does lead to a lot of duplication of effort (truing up machines, getting the tooling adjusted and working right for each machine, etc). I've got an 11" Southbend and a 7" minilathe. The Southbend is 10x more capable and has a QC gearbox, power cross-slide, taper attachment, collets, etc. That being said, I use the 7" lathe 90% of the time because it lends itself to working while sitting in a chair and it's close to the radio and the spot where I keep my wine glass... One of the nice things about our hobby is that the machinery and tooling doesn't really depreciate, so you can buy anything you want and sell it later if you decide that you don't like it without wasting a bunch of money. So, get whatever you like >:) c ------- Re: Bench Machines vs. Full Size Posted by: "george britnell" gbritnellx~xxyahoo.com Date: Sat Aug 12, 2006 2:13 pm (PDT) Hi Neil: At times I have thought the same thing as you. I have a 10" Logan lathe, a 6" Atlas lathe and an Asian bench mill. When I looked at a smaller mill my prime requirement was RPM's and none of the small mills would give me any increase over my bench mill so I thought why should I duplicate mills when I can do small and large jobs on the one that I have. At one time I owned a Unimat and like you mentioned it required all special tooling and when you get used to being able to take larger cuts it gets frustrating to have to take tiny cuts on a small machine. gbritnell ------- Re: Bench Machines vs. Full Size Posted by: "Cliff Ward" cd_wardx~xxbellsouth.net Date: Sat Aug 12, 2006 2:19 pm (PDT) I've enjoyed my Seig Mini-Lathe and Mini-Mill..I bought them as a total novice and have been teaching myself machining with various projects, not the least of which has been improving the performance of both machines. I've made many improvements, and have gotten them "dialed in" now..both are accurate workhorses. Having said that, I'd trade them in a heartbeat for a decent 9" South Bend. I believe the Sherline, although smaller than my lathe would have merit as an accurate tool right out of the box. The Seig tools are really more "kits"... great pricing but hardly a sturdy, accurate tool until quite a few adjustments are made. But the size of the Sherline might be limiting for many applications. After adjusting the heck out of mine I now fully understand how a lathe is supposed to work..of course that was part of my intension in the first place, so for that I am thankful for the low cost "Kit" nature of the Chinese Mini-Lathe and Mini-Mill. If I could locate someone locally who could benefit from these I'd sell both and step up to a Myford or something similar. Cliff Ward Cary, North Carolina USA ------- Re: Bench Machines vs. Full Size Posted by: "Tom Faragher" tfaraghex~xxadelphia.net Date: Sat Aug 12, 2006 2:44 pm (PDT) Neil: The only advantage of a small size machine is the ability to place it on a table or desk and work sitting down. I do 99% of my work on a 12 inch Atlas lathe with a set of 3AT collets in steps of 1/64 inch. This lathe will be for sale shortly as I am moving up to a Logan with 5C collet capability. For really tiny stuff I have a watchmaker's lathe with a set of collets that goes from 0.3mm to 5mm in steps of 0.05mm but it does not cut threads. Tom ------ Re: Bench Machines vs. Full Size Posted by: "Frank Hasieber" fhasieberx~xxyahoo.co.uk Date: Sat Aug 12, 2006 3:57 pm (PDT) Neil: You can make small stuff on a big machine but difficult the other way around, the advantage of the bigger machines is the cut you can take and save time, I regularly take a 1/8" cut turning steel or milling, that basically is the difference between small and big, the time saved, if time is not a factor use what you have or can afford, some superb things are being produced on 3 1/2"/ 7" lathes, what you have should be more than adequate unless space is a problem ------- Re: Bench Machines vs. Full Size Posted by: "Neil Butterfield" neilbfieldx~xxcox.net Date: Sat Aug 12, 2006 4:20 pm (PDT) Thanks Tom, I appreciate your input. I have been looking with interest at the small watchmakers lathes. As an ex-production woodturner I would like to try my hand at free hand turning of metal, probably brass, aluminum and 12L14 free machining steel. That's another aspect of small machines that I didn't bring up. Does your watchmakers lathe make more sense than a Sherline, Taig, etc.? Neil ------- Re: Bench Machines vs. Full Size Posted by: "garyrx~xxbpsinet.com" garyrx~xxbpsinet.com Date: Sat Aug 12, 2006 5:25 pm (PDT) I have a 7X12 mini lathe. Yes I'd love to have a larger lathe. It's just that I can't find one for the $850 I paid for this one with tooling package. Course if I did get a large lathe, I don't know where I'd put it. So, the advantage of "mini" machines is cost and work space. If you have big bucks and plenty of space, I see no reason to buy "mini" machines. My $.02 8-{). GaryR ------- Re: Bench Machines vs. Full Size Posted by: "Tom Faragher" tfaraghex~xxadelphia.net Date: Sat Aug 12, 2006 10:53 pm (PDT) Neil: Watchmaker's lathes are primarily designed for making watch parts. You can turn freehand with a tee rest and graver but the torque available from the round belt and cone pulley is pretty limited so turning anything greater than 1/4 inch diameter would probably stall the machine unless you make really light cuts. The motors are typically 1/10 horsepower with a foot pedal speed control similar to a sewing machine. I think your Southbend fitted with a tee rest would be more suitable for what you have in mind. Tom ------- Re: Bench Machines vs. Full Size Posted by: "John R. Tow" jrtow3rdx~xxworldnet.att.net Date: Sun Aug 13, 2006 5:58 am (PDT) Neil, I had been woodturning for a while when, some twenty-nine years ago, I bought a SB 9" and accessories. The purchase was to make a replacement A/C idler pulley for my factory (Borletti) A/C-ed Alfa Romeo 2000 Berlina, an oddity in itself. The learning curve in going from wood to metal was steep - those metal curls are hot! Still, although I have yet to make an engine, I have used it a bit. Probably more hours total have been spent by my Taig, bought after my early retirement and nearly eleven years old now. I had a woodworking business for years - made the arts and arts & crafts circuits for years, making over 12k pens and many other turned goodies, many on a VicMark VL100 wood lathe, which I still have. The Taig was perfect for making thousands of small pen & pencil sets from Corian scraps. My childhood asthma returned with a vengence, so many of my larger wood tools have gone. I have acquired a 7" lathe and mini-mill, but have not mastered them. Oddly, I still go between the Taig and the old SB. For what I generally do, the Taig is too small - the SB, too large. Perhaps the 7" x 10" will be spot on - but it does require some tuning. A Sherline, with nice accessories, would be more dear initially than the 7" import, but probably a no-brainer to use - a definite plus. I have seen a lot of nice work from the Sherlines. The Taig is no slouch, just size limited, like a watchmaker's lathe. Don't sell the farm for a S-B... try a smaller one first... and jump in! John ------- Re: Bench Machines vs. Full Size Posted by: "Neil Butterfield" neilbfieldx~xxcox.net Date: Sun Aug 13, 2006 10:15 am (PDT) Tom: Hadn't thought about the small belts and limited horsepower on the watchmakers lathes. You bring up a good point. That's why I wanted to initiate discussion on the bench top machines vs. conventional. Your comments are leading me to just stay with what I have. Thanks, Neil ------- Re: Bench Machines vs. Full Size Posted by: "Neil Butterfield" neilbfieldx~xxcox.net Date: Sun Aug 13, 2006 11:20 am (PDT) John, I appreciate your comments. I'm getting input indicating that the 7 x 10, 7 x 12 and 7 x 14 Asian mini-lathes may be the way to go if I'm interested in getting something smaller than my current 9" South Bend. It certainly looks that the price is right and the Asians are constantly improving, i.e. the min. RPM has been reduced to 40 from the original 100. A lot of my South Bend tooling could be used on a 7x. Time will tell. I started bowl turning 30 years ago, before it started to get popular here in the states. I taught myself and fortunately my first book was Peter Childs book and I learned immediately to cut rather than scrape. I also worked on the outboard end of my old Delta and became an ambidextrous turner. I turned a lot of bowls and became know locally as a pretty good turner. I knew most everyone in the local woodworking industry and shop owners started asking me to turn legs for them. I took on their jobs and they paid me to become an efficient production spindle turner. I retired from my regular job and before you knew it, I was a full time production turner. I made damn good money in my new found niche market, to the extent that after a few years I became burned out and bored. I gave my business to a neighbor friend who expanded on it to large table bases, outdoor columns, etc. and now he is slowly tapering off for eventual retirement. I did pens too, in the very beginning; until everyone jumped on the bandwagon and you couldn't make any money. I also didn't enjoy the competition. Very few tried to compete with me in my production turning. If they did take a customer for a while he would soon be back with new-found appreciation. I also did custom furniture those years but tired of that. I'm back in metalworking now which is where I started as a co-op engineering student in the 50's. I'm having fun now building what I want, Hit 'n Miss Engines, some machining for pay from my electronic and inventor friends, making tools, etc. Stay in touch, Neil ------- Re: Bench Machines vs. Full Size Posted by: "Tim Guenther" tbgx~xxfrontiernet.net Date: Sun Aug 13, 2006 4:13 pm (PDT) It has been my experience that you can make more accurate parts - big or small - with a machine that is RIGID. Bigger machines are more rigid and will produce better small parts, if they are aligned (trammed) accurately. I work as a quality manager in a precision machining house. We make some very very small and very accurate parts for the medical industry on a very large Mazak milling center. Threaded holes at #0000-120 and the taps don't break! Keep the South Bend. You should be able to arrange it so you can sit in front of it. Tim Guenther ------- Re: Bench Machines vs. Full Size Posted by: "Ellis Cory" ellis103x~xxtiscali.co.uk Date: Mon Aug 14, 2006 2:06 am (PDT) Tim Guenther wrote....Keep the South Bend. You should be able to arrange it so you can sit in front of it..... I wouldn't recommend sitting at any machine. If you have to move out of the way quickly because something is wrong, standing is better and more manoevarable. If you need support, then a stool to lean against is more suitable. HTH Ellis ------- Re: Bench Machines vs. Full Size Posted by: "Ellis Cory" ellis103x~xxtiscali.co.uk Date: Mon Aug 14, 2006 7:44 am (PDT) Carl wrote....I'm not arguing with you Ellis, but some of us "old timers" are seeking ways to 'sit a spell' because it is difficult to stand. What you didn't know, is that I am an 'old timer' as well !!! And yes I have an adjustable stool as well for taking rests at. Ellis ------- Re: Chinese Clone Machines... [sherline] Posted by: "Jim Knighton" jim_knightonx~xxmsn.com Date: Tue Nov 28, 2006 10:57 am ((PST)) jlkieffer wrote: > Jim: I have owned several 7X 10-12 mini lathes and Mills over the > years. I have wasted time making all of the modifications only to > find out once a Cow pie always a Cow pie. None have ever been > capable of constient quality machine work in a timely fashion as are > my quality machines. It is of course possible to do anything with > anything if you spend enough time. However time is very important > to me. I can replace money spent on quality equipment but I can`t > replace time. Surprisingly my quality equipment has paid for > itself much faster than the inexpensive equipment. My Mini lathe > and Mini mill are used to clean up rusty, dirty, soldered work > pieces before they are put in my good machines. (And of course the > Neighbors' projects.) For this they are fine. I have also found > them too large and crude for small work and too small and fragile for > large work. As a home Shop machinist I found Sherline`s and a > 13" lathe/compatible Mill hard to beat for the capability to do as > you wish to do. Jerry Kieffer Jerry, I appreciate and respect your perspective and conclusions, and also your considerable experience with a lot of different types of equipment. I'm not going to argue the point. Please keep in mind that my experience is much more narrow, and also that we probably do rather different kinds of work. I'm not a talented artist working on stuff with incredible and exquisite detail on parts that are vanishingly small. My projects are much more mundane - steam engines, and the like. I don't have hands on experience with the expensive "good stuff" and I'll almost certainly never be able to afford the machines I dream about. So, I do the best I can with what I can afford and for years I've been trying to make my shop as functional as I can within the limits and bounds of my circumstances. For the record, my shop comprises mostly Sherline equipment with several lathes and mills all configured for specific tasks, including one Taig lathe that is something of a project in its own right. I think the Sherline machines are very well made and a delight to use, especially the mills of which I have three. I've certainly done more than my share to keep Sherline profitable through the years and for the most part I'm a fan, not a critic. The fact remains that from day 1 the Sherline lathes haven't been a good fit for the stuff I like to do - they are just too small. I tried for years to turn one of my lathes, a 4400 into something that had a suitable work envelope and the results are for the most part documented in this forum's archives. One of my other Sherline lathes is a fine little CNC machine that works very well for small parts. Another of my Sherline lathes is set up for and dedicated to wood turning, and again it's great for what I use it for. The "big" Sherline lathe, however, has been torn down and put into storage for the simple reason that it's not as suitable for the usual stuff I do as is the 7x. My "cow pie" machine isn't cosmetically attractive - it looks like any other red Chinese machine. It also isn't even remotely close to a stock configuration. It's been rebuilt, modified, etc. to the point that it's almost a travesty to call it "Chinese". All the big pieces are still the original iron castings, though, and I haven't tried to hide or disguise its origins. At least on my machine, the spindle is reasonably accurate and more closely aligned to the ways and the tailstock than any of my Sherlines, by at least a couple orders of magnitude. The tapers are accurately machined and nicely finished. Since this defines the heart of the lathe, it's been a decent starting point for my efforts. I've done most of the mods you mentioned and a lot of stuff that is original and unique to my machine. I'm reasonably pleased with the outcome. Keep in mind that this is strictly a hobby for me, and I'm not suggesting that this machine is comparable to a Schaublin, Myford, Monarch, or Hardinge. It's definitely not, or even close! It works for me, however. I probably have the only 7x on the planet with 6 Bison chucks, including the 4" Bison 5C chuck, any one of which costs nearly as much as the original lathe. The Chinese chucks I bought originally are at the municipal land fill - that's what I think of them. There are also three ETM ER chucks and collet sets, similarly expensive, etc. All the handwheels have been replaced with larger, cast iron pieces, and the power feed is variable speed electronic, not the original setup. Cutting tools are all premium indexable stuff from Iscar, Valenite, etc. The QCTP is a big, heavy, AXA size, and the lathe had to be modified just to mount it. The list goes on and on. This is NOT your basic, standard 7x. There are aspects of the 7x's operation that are clunky and awkward, but overall and in it's present state as I've rebuilt it, it is easier to use in that the controls operate more smoothly, and are comfortable in my big, clumsy, hands, etc. than are the Sherline's, etc. The DROs (non standard) are accurate to .0001", although backlash is something of an issue, but it's manageable. The Bison chucks are very smooth to operate and easy to use and with decent accuracy - they're better than Sherline's and at their prices they ought to be. The collet chucks are great, especially the 5C - again, the list goes on and on. From a $$$ perspective, my lathe as currently configured is more Polish or Israeli than Chinese! Anyway, until I can afford better than this the 7x will have to do, and as I've built it it's up to the task. Regarding its longevity, only time will tell if it remains reliable. I haven't abandoned or given up on Sherline, by any stretch of the imagination. Regardless, there is a place for at least some "Chinese" (sort of) machine tools in my shop as noted above. Regards, Jim ------- Buying a lathe [taigtools] Posted by: "polybear2123" polybearx~xxmadasafish.com Date: Sat Mar 3, 2007 8:03 am ((PST)) Hi, I'm considering a Taig lathe (maybe secondhand) for 4mm model railway related machining (nothing too clever). Other options are sherline and unimat (either unimat 4 or a secondhand 3). Any opinions would be much appreciated please. Thanks. Brian ------- Re: Buying a lathe Posted by: "oakmeadows" oakmeadowsx~xxyahoo.co.uk Date: Sat Mar 3, 2007 8:20 am ((PST)) I have a taig lathe and its the best thing i have bought it is so accurate and precise you cant go wrong. Good luck. ------- Re: Buying a lathe Posted by: "n2562001" jlkiefferx~xxcharter.net Date: Sat Mar 3, 2007 9:01 am ((PST)) Brian: Some Lathe considerations for Micro Machining should include work holding Options, Lathe tool control, Tailstock/Headstock alignment for drilling purposes. While we each have our preferences and standards there is no substitute for demonstrations involving the work you wish to do. If you are serious about your work the headaches and hassles to solicite these demonstrations, will be well worth the time to determine what will work best for your needs. Jerry Kieffer ------- Re: Buying a lathe Posted by: "Mick Nicholson" micknich2003x~xxyahoo.co.uk Date: Sat Mar 3, 2007 9:29 am ((PST)) I have modelled in 4mm scale and larger for 40 years and more. I have owned a lathe since 1969. I have three at present, my latest being a Chinese made "CO" about same size as a Unimat, in fact same 14mm spindle etc. The "Peatol" as it [the Taig] is known in the UK will produce good work, and was highly recommended in the "Model Engineer" magazine by one of the UK's leading Horologists. Personally I'm of the opinion for this kind of work, and providing the lathe is in reasonable condition, there is nothing to choose between any of them. Mick Nicholson ------- Re: Atlas 10 Vs Atlas Craftsman 12 [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: "Jon Elson" elsonx~xxpico-systems.com Date: Wed Nov 7, 2007 9:55 am ((PST)) Mike wrote: > Gentlemen I recently purchased an Atlas 10x24 QC 42 lathe with the > roller bearing headstock. I thought it would be good for some of the > dirty jobs and that I could keep the kids off of the Monarch. As it > turns out, it needs a lot of parts and work. Then I found two more > Craftsman-Atlas lathes, a 12x18 and a 12x36, also with the roller > bearings. I bought these too but both are also in need of parts and TLC. > I have heard that these lathes have some chatter-design issues. Well, they SURE are not a Monarch (play heavenly chorus at mention of that name). I wouldn't say they have "design issues". The AA Products 6x18" lathe, Sears model 109.xxxx DID have real design issues, like a 1/2" spindle and the planetary gears that were too light. But, the Atlas is a LIGHT lathe, and not the only one. The bed has a low cross section and is more flexible than industrial-grade lathes. > I have also heard that Atlas thought that 10 inches was the limit > for the light bed and only produced the 12s for Sears. Well, they did beef up the bed cross section on the later 12" model, and it was an improvement. They also beefed up the compound slide a little, as it was a bit marginal on the 10". > I do not have any experience with any of these lathes. So, the question > is, does anyone have experience with both the Atlas 10 and the > Atlas-Craftsman 12s? Is there a real world difference between them? I have had both. Depends on the vintage. The early 12" has the SAME bed as the 10", with the 3/8" thick ways. The later 12" (post 1958, I think) went to a 1/2" thick way, and probably overall a little more cross-section in the bed. That change definitely made a difference. But, it was STILL a light lathe. If you have a Monarch anything, I suspect you'd be apalled at how springy the thing is. I have moved up to a 15" Sheldon, after a totally extensive rebuild with the finest professional instruments. I'm afraid I've ruined myself, I'd never be able to go back, unless trapped on a desert island with an Atlas and something that needed repair to get me back to civilization. And, having to use the Atlas, I'm sure I'd be swearing a blue streak. On the other hand, I don't dare to let my kids run the Sheldon, either, for fear of injury to them or a crash to the machine. > I intend to use the 54inch bed and make 1 good lathe from the 3. I have > the bigger Monarch, and although the 12 would be nice, if the 10s runs > better, I would be content with that. So, which do you guys think runs > better, a 10 or a 12? All opinions and ideas are appreciated. If you are going to keep the Monarch, then you don't need the extra swing of the 12". So, assemble the best pieces and you'll have a great learner lathe for the kids. Hmm, now my Sheldon has up to 1250 RPM, unusual for an older 15" lathe. And, the "high speed" version of the machine went to 2500 with just a lighter lube in the headstock. I don't dare spin my 8" chuck over 1250! I'd guess your Monarch has a very limited high speed, so maybe the Atlas would be of more use in your shop for the small parts. That 1250 RPM was a major consideration on the Sheldon, so I could have only one lathe that did everything. Jon ------- Re: Atlas 10 Vs Atlas Craftsman 12 Posted by: "Brett Jones" brettx~xx5foot2.com Date: Wed Nov 7, 2007 11:27 am ((PST)) Jon Elson wrote: > Depends on the vintage. The early 12" has the SAME bed as the > 10", with the 3/8" thick ways. Not true. The Atlas 10" and the early Atlas/Craftsman 12" were essentially the same design, but enough details exist between the two beds that using major components between the two models is not a simple bolt on exercise. I own an early to mid 50's 10-F Atlas and a 12" Atlas/Craftsman. Off the top of my head, the only major parts that swap between two are the apron/ carriage assembly and the spindle/pulley assembly out of the headstock. You can bolt the 12" headstock and tailstock onto the 10" bed, but you'll find that the mounting bosses and hole to mount the leadscrew gearing aren't there or are in the wrong place. Trying to mount let's say, the 12" QCGB onto the 10" headstock will end in the same problems. The later heavier 12" model (post '58 or '59) was the same machine regardless of the Atlas or Craftsman badges. > But, it was STILL a light lathe. If you have a Monarch anything, I > suspect you'd be apalled at how springy the thing is. Very true. If you want this machine as a hobby lathe or light use shop tool, it's great. It does have its limitations though. > I have moved up to a 15" Sheldon I happen to also own a Sheldon, a 10x24 ELX model. It's my primary machine now and a world apart from the Atlas that it replaced. That said, I still own the Atlas and have no qualms about using it. For example the Atlas has a taper attachment, so it gets used when I need to cut a taper. The machine is just as much fun to run as the Sheldon, I'm just not going to be using it to hog off material. Brett Jones ------- Re: Atlas 10 Vs Atlas Craftsman 12 Posted by: "Russ Kepler" russx~xxkepler-eng.com Date: Wed Nov 7, 2007 1:18 pm ((PST)) Really, the newer model 12" isn't a bad lathe at all, and I'm saying that when it's back-to-back with a rebuilt Monarch 10EE. When I bought the Monarch I paid less than I had for the Atlas 10 years before (at least in constant dollars) and got more tooling; but the Monarch was not useable immediately when the Atlas was. Some of the parts used in the in the 10EE rebuild were made on the Atlas. You can make just as good a part on the Atlas as the Monarch, it just takes a little longer to get there. Tooling and parts are a lot cheaper! But like you say, the Atlas gets mostly polishing jobs and my son's work, most of my turning time is spent on the Monarch anymore. ------- Re: Atlas 10 Vs Atlas Craftsman 12 Posted by: "Mike" mf205ix~xxyahoo.com Date: Wed Nov 7, 2007 2:25 pm ((PST)) Jon, you called that one. My plain bearing Monarch tops out at 600 RPM. I am well aware of the Atlas designs, as I have had at least 1 618 for 20 or so years. I currently have 3 of them, 1 of each of the Atlas designs offered over the years. I like them. My current small part-high RPM lathe is a pristine-as new 1969 618 that was given to me by the original owner. It had been in storage since he moved, 2 months after he bought it in 1969. I use it to make parts for the other lathes, Monarch included, a vicious circle if you will! I like the idea of a mid size, handy, high RPM, lathe with a QC gearbox. I think I have a good idea as to what I am getting into. So, for clarification and to satisfy my curiosity, toe to toe, do the early 12x36s have noticeably, as opposed to theoretically, more tendencies to chatter than the 10 x 36s of the same vintage with the same features? All opinions and comments are appreciated. Thanks, Mike ------- Re: Atlas 10 Vs Atlas Craftsman 12 Posted by: "Bobby May" widgitsx~xxsbcglobal.net Date: Wed Nov 7, 2007 2:33 pm ((PST)) If you ever get the chance to check out a Cazeneuve do it!!! Finest engine lathe I ever had my hands on. Only one thing could be better than this for a home shop machinist and it involves 2 supermodels and a hot tub full of blackberry brandy. Need I say more? As far as the chatter goes, just make sure the lathe is well mounted and all the gibs are set right. These are nice little lathes. To spin up something small really quick I prefer it over my 15" x 42" LeBlond that weighs 5 times as much, and it [Atlas] is perfect for my 12 yr old kid to learn on. Bobby May ------- Atlas 10 Vs Atlas Craftsman 12 Posted by: "catboat15x~xxaol.com" Date: Wed Nov 7, 2007 4:19 pm ((PST)) I have owned and used two Craftsman 12 inch lathes. Lost the first one through a divorce. (Don't ask, but did you ever hear the story about the cheap Mercedes sports car?) I have also used the small Logans and South Bends at times. For me (mainly home maintenance and hobby steam engines) they are about the same. None are the equal to a big industrial machine, but all will do the job with a little care. BTW I use almost all HSS tooling on my Atlas and the only time I get out the carbide tipped tool is when I have to cut the scale off an iron casting. HSS gives a better finish and I like the ability to take a stone and sharpen up the cutting edges any time I need to do that and to step over to the shop grinder and change a cutting angle when I need to change from turning steel (back rake) to turning brass (no rake) at a moment's notice. There is a whole world of difference between production machine work and our "one of a kind" work as far as tools are concerned. If I wanted to make a gizmo that had to fit every Ford on the road and needed several thousand, I would not choose one of the light lathes for the project, but if I need a cylinder for a steam engine and only expected to build one, my light lathe does just fine as tomorrow I may need to make something else to keep the clothes dryer or washing machine working. John Meacham from the high deserts of Calif 12 inch Atlas lathe, mini mill, HF band saw and a rusty file ------- Advice on setting up a 4400 [sherline] Posted by: "hankb458" hankb458x~xxyahoo.com Date: Sat Nov 24, 2007 8:42 am ((PST)) Hello, I'm new to this group, and relatively inexperienced on lathes. The few times I've used a lathe. it's been without training, and for limited purposes; I accomplished what I needed to and all my fingers are intact so I did OK (the simple stuff I did wasn't exactly rocket science) but I've decided to get one for home use. I need a lathe that's one-man-portable, since the workbench I'll be using it on will be used for other things; that pretty well limits me to a mini-lathe of some sort. Right now, I plan to purchase a Sherline 4400 lathe, and have taken a look at Sherline's A, B, and C packages, as well as the accessories included in each. I'm wondering if I'd be better off getting the basic lathe and adding the "right" accessories immediately, rather than purchasing a package and later replacing parts of it, for example, purchasing a QC tool holder immediately, rather than getting it as a replacement for the standard tool holder, the price of which is already figured into the package. Likewise the chuck, Sherline's packages include their standard 3-jaw chuck, but I'm wondering if I'd be better off to get something else instead. Also, how well does the Sherline threading accessory work? Mostly what I'll be working on initially is light gunsmithing projects - things like neck turning, fabricating bedding pillars, firing pins, snap caps, muzzle brakes, throat gages, etc. Precision will be more important than speed; I certainly won't be in volume production. Right now, I don't envision working on anything larger in diameter than the 1.75" capacity of Sherline's steadyrest. I already have a good selection of basic tools - vernier calipers, micrometers, depth mikes, thread gages, lathe center and twist drills, jo-blocks, plug gages, etc., but I'd really appreciate any advice on lathe-specific tooling and accessories. Thanks ------- Re: Advice on setting up a 4400 Posted by: "n2562001" jlkiefferx~xxcharter.net Date: Sat Nov 24, 2007 10:37 am ((PST)) Hank ? Having done a fair amount of Gunsmith type work over the years I think I can respond. Gunsmithing will require two types of equipment, one being a lathe of at least 12-13" swing with at least a 1-1/2" spindle bore. It will also require a small lathe for small internal parts including screws, firing pins etc. For this type work, 3/4" diameter and smaller, the Sherline lathe is ideal. You will find equipment between the Sherline and larger equipmet to be either too small or too large for what you need to do. While many attempt small work on large equipment, few succeed with cobble work being common in the Gunsmithing trade. The Sherline threading attachment is ideal for the small odd ball screws that need to be made. It also has a very wide range of thread options required for gun work including the ability to do slight taper threads with proper set up. For Gunsmith work I would suggest the 4500 lathe with the standard "A" package. In addition I would suggest a rear mounted cutoff tool and the steady rest as well as the threading attachment if you wish to cut threads. Anything else can come later after you make chips and determine what you need depending on the work you wish to do. I would not suggest a quick change tool post on the Sherline size lathe especially one of the cheap ones. For Gunsmith and other work you will find it always in the way. It will also block your view on small work and limit what you can work on because of the size. Small work requires that the tool tip be properly set at dead center to the spindle and is far more critical than on large equipment. For this reason I suggest the standard double sided tool posts where Brazed carbide tools can be mounted and left mounted assuring proper tool settings. Because the posts are inexpensive, several can be purchased and readly used as needed giving maximum efficiency. To give an example of Sherline limitations, the largest Gun related project I have done on Sherline equipment was a Scope Claw mount system for a commercial 88 Mauser. It was done from bar stock and actually should have been done on larger equipment. On the other hand, machining the jaws themselves to a close fit was easier than on larger equipment. I certainly would not suggest anything larger. Roger Ronnie from South Dakota has machined a early 1/2 scale Auto Pistol from barstock on Sherline Equipment. This will also give an idea of what can be accomplished and size limitations. His work can be seen at: www.craftsmanshipmuseum.com/ronnie.htm Jerry Kieffer ------- Re: Advice on setting up a 4400 Posted by: "DA Dossin" danatlx~xxyahoo.com Date: Sat Nov 24, 2007 11:42 am ((PST)) Hank: You will get a lot of opinions so, here's mine. Buying what you need is like the Gillette folks with their razors, give them the razor and then double the cost of the blades. LOL. If you live 2 blocks away from Sherline, you can stop down and buy what you need as you need the things. I live on the far east coast. If you buy from Sherline, you will never go wrong. These folks have provided me fantastic customer support. I recommend them HIGHLY. Per the limits of a work bench. Consider buying the bottom half of a roll around tool box, add some wood to the top and mount your lathe on this. Trust me, you will need the drawers too LOL. The only caution I would make is, always make sure the lathe bed is level after you move this platform. Mount the lathe closer to you and put a back 'splash panel' on the back or you will be continually be sweeping up behind the lathe. Get the long bed lathe. You can always move the tail stock closer to the chuck but with the short bed, you are limited, in the future, to the max length of material. I don't know your age but, I am 64 and my eyes don't work well. Consider the DRO option. Read carefully, the options in the various packages. Determine which will satisfy your immediate needs. Then, at the same time you order the lathe, negotiate prices on the other things you might need. The worst thing they can tell you is NO. Quick change tool holders ... yes. I have two brands. A2Z quick change holder that I use the most. You can find them on the Internet. I also have the Sherline QC tool holder. Order your HS tool steel in 5s and might want to do that twice. No matter which QC tool holder you buy, order a few extra tool holders. Take the time to sit down and get all your tools lined up with either the dead center in the head stock or perhaps Sherline's tool height gage <3009>. Things will go much faster than doing this alignment as you need the tools. Consider buying a 'rocker' tool holder (3057). You may not see a need for it but one day...you just might have some strange tool you want to mount up and better to have it than to wait for it or figure out a jury rig. Consider a 4 jaw chuck too. Scrolling or independent is your decision. Not everything you chuck up is round so a lot can be said for independent chucks. Depending upon the length of material you are using, you might consider a "follower" <1090>and or a "steady rest" <1074>. At some point you may consider the carbide tools...I would recommend the Sherline holders and inserts. Threading attachment? Hmmmmm, that's a "tuffy". I have one and have yet to use it in about 2 yrs. Dies are nice, but you are limited in the length of the threads you can apply, a bit less than 1/2 of an inch if you are lucky. You may experience some jaw slippage of the chuck, when using the die, the key here is using something to get the oil from the jaws and the material. Get the live tail stock center <1191> and also the die holder <1206>. Even though I have the 'newer' designed tail stock...I still recommend having a tail stock extender <1220>. Seems sometimes the QC tool holder get in the way of the tail stock, live center and that all important end of the material. Get the 3/8 inch tail stock Jacobs chuck. Again, it is easier to make it smaller but, you can't make a 1/4 inch tail stock chuck larger than 1/4 inch. You may soon discover a need for a compound slide <1270> and a radius cutting attachment <2200>. At some point you will want a knurling tool. I have the Sherline product <3004> and here I will yield to those who use another brand. Order a packet of center drills (3021) and a packet of 10 T-nuts (3056). You will understand the need for extra T-nuts when you forget how strong you are. Also an extra 'cut off' blade. <30860> especially if you are trying to "part" material over 1 inch in diameter. You will need a dial indicator, couple steel rules, safety glasses, cutting fluid, lubricant for the lathe, and apron that TIES IN THE BACK. Oh, if you have never ground your own HS tools, buy a set from Sherline and use them as a model as you learn to grind your own tools. You need to buy a 60 Degree center tool. Available at a supply house near you or on the net. Sherline does not list one but, I suspect they can send you to the proper supplier. Books....... gotta have books. From Sherline, The Sherline Accessories Shop Guide Tabletop Machining The Home Machinist's Handbook Machine Shop Trade Secrets And from Amazon.com Machinists' Ready Reference and finally, a used, early edition of Machinery's Handbook. Mine is from the 40s. With all these books and lots of spare time, you will have 85% of all the knowledge in the world. The rest, can be found from the guys here, excluding me. Soooo, get up your list and your credit card ... Sit down, call Sherline and buy yourself the best Christmas ever. And finally, at some point in time, you have to actually turn the machine on and make chips Dan. ------- An introduction... [barstockengines] Posted by: "down3green" N61W160x~xxgmail.com Date: Tue Dec 4, 2007 12:01 pm ((PST)) Hello. I'm Don from Santa Rosa, California. Let me start by confessing that I am a complete newbie to machining. It has been something I always wanted to learn. Now that I am retired, there are no more excuses left for me for putting it off any longer. Hopefully this group might offer to help an new guy like me learn to create some of those pieces so proudly displayed in the group's photo section. From my perspective, making something so nice will be a lofty goal indeed. So far I have only the normal model building tools. My internet research for machine tools leaves me with more questions than when I started. The Sherline units look really cool, but the cast iron Microlux 7x14 lathe looks good to me too. Do most of you also own milling machines? My projects will be small. I'm a "steamhead" and look forward to building model size steam engines or some display Stirling engines. Where do I start? Any comments and suggestions are invited. Thanks in advance. Don ------- Re: An introduction... Posted by: "Rob R." rroll99x~xxyahoo.com Date: Tue Dec 4, 2007 2:19 pm ((PST)) Hi Don: Questions about what lathe or mill to buy get beat to death all the time, although usually in other groups, like the 7 x 12 Mini-lathe Users Group or GrizHFMinimill. My suggestion is to get started with just a lathe first, unless you've got money to burn. If you decide to get a 7x12 lathe, then I think the best deal on the market is either the Cummins mini-lathe or the Homier mini-lathe with the $99 accessory kit. Also, keep in mind that in addition to the machines, you're going to need tooling for the machines, which can amount to a fair amount money. For example, a 4-jaw independent chuck with a mounting plate, which is almost a necessity, is going to run you at least $80. And, a Quick Change Tool Post (QCTP) with indexable bits, which is not a necessity, but which really improved my productivity and results, will run you at least $100-$120. BTW, you might want to check out Frank Hoose's mini-lathe.com and Littlemachineshop.com if you haven't already done so. I also have a collection of links that you might find useful at: http://www.sailontario.com/phpLD/ One last thing, I think building a small simple steam/air engine is a good way to develop your skills; something like Dave Goodfellow's Brassy Babe or BB #2. His site is at: http://www.davegoodfellow.com/metalworking.html Rob ------- Re: An introduction... Posted by: "a3sigma" dcclark111x~xxcomcast.net Date: Tue Dec 4, 2007 2:30 pm ((PST)) Hi Don: Welcome to the world. I worked 28 years as a Machinist, Metalsmith, Metrologist, Assembly and Instrument Alignment Tech for NASA. A few years before I retired, I was tasked with setting up and managing a small Instrument Development Lab on a tight budget. I wanted it to have a bench-top machining capability for making small parts, without tying up equipment in the main shop. This was also to be used for training apprentices and student interns. After a good deal of market research, I settled on a turn-key Sherline CNC lathe and milling machine package. I was sufficiently impressed with Sherline's quality and customer service that I purchased the same package for my use at home. I've since been making clocks, model steam and Stirling engines. I have no association with Sherline except as a very satisfied customer. In my judgment, Sherline is an excellent value for the money. Highly recommended. DC ------- Re: An introduction... Posted by: "Don" N61W160x~xxgmail.com Date: Tue Dec 4, 2007 4:32 pm ((PST)) Thanks for your reply Rob. Everybody has their own personal favorites for any number of reasons. I can't justify the cost of the German Prazi (their BMW's either) though I really appreciate the quality. I suspect that most of the Chinese units will do just fine including the Micro Mark 7x14. The Sherline would be the one for me if the spindle bore were more like .75" instead of .40". Perhaps in actual practice this will not be a factor for what I need. There's part of my problem as I still don't know what my needs will be until I get some experience with a machine's capabilities. This is part of the fun. Don ------- Re: An introduction... Posted by: "Rob R." rroll99x~xxyahoo.com Date: Tue Dec 4, 2007 4:42 pm ((PST)) Be careful about the HF 7x12. I don't know why, but I've read several times that it is really a 7x10. BTW, someone just mentioned in another group that the latest HF flyer they're mailing out has a 15% off coupon in it. Rob ------- Re: An introduction... Posted by: "Don" N61W160x~xxgmail.com Date: Tue Dec 4, 2007 4:43 pm ((PST)) Hello DC: Thanks for your comments, DC. I've ordered the Sherline book about bench top machining. When I'm through with that I should be better able to make a choice. Apparently the Sherline will handle my needs, small spindle bore and all. About CNC. Is it a requirement for quality work? I was considering the DRO for my ever tiring eyes, but CNC seemed a little over the top for my needs. Don ------- Re: An introduction... Posted by: "Clint D" driggarsx~xxwildblue.net Date: Tue Dec 4, 2007 4:50 pm ((PST)) Actually, HF does now offer a 7x12 as well as the 7x10 Cumminstools.com has about the best offer Clint ------- Re: An introduction... Posted by: "n2562001" jlkiefferx~xxcharter.net Date: Tue Dec 4, 2007 6:27 pm ((PST)) Don: You are correct in that everyone will have opinions on this subject. However when I was in this situation many years ago there were only opinions and no demonstrations. My solution was to purchase one of everything and select only what would actually do the job to quality I wished in a timely fashion. I have built Bar stock engines to scale for some twenty years. What I have found is that in order to build quality scale models you need larger equipment for large parts and small equipment for small parts. I have found my Emco Maier V13 13" lathe and F-3 floor mill to be ideal larger equipment but more expensive than most will want to spend. Good quality used equipment is available in this size at a reasonable price. For smaller equipment I have owned several of the Tiawan/Chinese mini lathes since their introduction to this country in the late 80`s. I have gone through the rebuild, beat your head against the wall process and simply cannot recommend this equipment. The equipment itself is not large enough for large parts and far too crude for small parts. With this equipment you must first develop the skill to manipulate it to do what you wish to do. From that point you can start to develop the skill to do what you wish to do. But your skill level will of course be limited to the ability of the equipment that is quite limited. This is of course is my opinion that I am more than happy to demonstrate or patiently watch demo`s to the contrary that never seen to materialize. I am at most major shows and love to be challenged. Sherline size Equipment works out great for smaller Equipment and is perfectly sized to do the small parts not practical on the larger equipment mentioned above. If you wish to limit your self to this equipment it is very versatile and will allow to to build high quality scale models within its size envelope. I have posted a couple of photo`s of engines machined on this equipment to give you a size reference. (Under my Name in photo`s section.) All magneto`s, oil pumps,generators, sending units, oil line fittings etc. are functional as the original item they were copied from. What I have learned over the years is that the quality of equipment that you purchase will determine the skill level that you achieve and what you will achieve. I can tell you that had I limited myself to poor quality or worn out or Chinese equipment, these projects simply would not exist. But worse yet I would have never developed the skill required to do what I wish to do. Since most of your work will probably be one off parts, I would suggest manual machines until you develop the skills to determine if hobby CNC systems will be an advantage. I would also suggest that your selection offer accessories that are properly sized to the equipment and compatible with both the lathe and mill. All axes on all equipment should have clearly marked calibrated handwheels. Comments and personal experience per your request from your first post. Jerry Kieffer ------- Re: An introduction... Posted by: "a3sigma" dcclark111x~xxcomcast.net Date: Wed Dec 5, 2007 4:55 am ((PST)) > but CNC seemed a little over the top for my needs. Not at all. CNC will speed up your work by automating redundant operations and achieving higher feed rates. It also makes it possible to machine arcs much more easily than with a turn table alone. But a vast amount of excellent work can be done without it. My advice to anyone starting out is to become proficient at manual machining before you get into CNC. The knowledge and skills you gain will be invaluable if and when you upgrade. I can also imagine someone spending a lot of money on machines, CNC, CAD and CAM software, etc, and being simply overwhelmed by it all; or spending all their time learning the software and never making any hardware. Now that I think of it; let me add one more plug for Sherline. All of their tooling is modular and interchangeable between the lathe and mill. This saves a lot of money on tooling. More important, it makes it possible to move a workpiece between machines and setups without re-fixturing. A good example is making a spur gear: I fix the work in a 4 jaw chuck, face, and turn the OD on the lathe, transfer the chuck to the rotary table mounted horizontally on the mill, cut the teeth, remount the table vertically, mill the spokes, then back to the lathe to polish the gear. All this without ever taking the work out of the chuck, which preserves my alignment and helps to ensure that the gear is "true" (all surfaces co-axial and/or mutually perpendicular). DC ------- Re: An introduction... Posted by: "mirroromatic" mycrumpx~xxusol.com Date: Wed Dec 5, 2007 4:21 pm ((PST)) > Now that I think of it; let me add one more plug for Sherline. All of > their tooling is modular and interchangeable between the lathe and > mill. This saves a lot of money on tooling. More important, it makes > it possible to move a workpiece between machines and setups without > re-fixturing. Let me second the motion... I'm a pretty typical model builder, I picked up my machines as I found them and could afford them. Thus I have an Atlas 6" lathe, Atlas shaper and a Sherline mill. Despite the very nice Atlas lathe, I'm still considering buying the Sherline lathe since I can exchange bits between them. It's pretty important to be able to move a part between lathe and mill and rotary table to keep errors from stacking up ! I really like the looks of the MicroMark lathe and mill, but whatever you buy, I'd consider getting both lathe and mill of the same brand so you can interchange bits - it saves money and reduces hair pulling. My two cents, Daryl ------- Re: Should I Buy A Atlas/Craftsman Mk.2 Lathe To Replace My Chinese Posted by: "jerdalx~xxsbcglobal.net" Date: Thu Dec 6, 2007 6:23 pm ((PST)) Original Message From: "jwgott1" Sent: Wednesday, December 05, 2007 5:05 PM >I have been offered an Atlas/Craftsman 6x18 lathe in excellent > condition. It is the Craftsman Model 101.21200. Serial No. 001446. > This lathe would replace my current 7X12 blue colored Chinese lathe. > I'm strictly a self taught garage machinist and I only use the lathe > occasionally for making small models and such, but when I do use it, I'd > like something that would be more substantial and accurate than the > Chinese lathe. Do you guys think this Atlas would represent a good > upgrade from my current 7x12 import? Any thoughts or inputs or > experiences with this lathe would be helpful and appreciated. Thanks. >> Jonathan Gottlieb Bethesda, MD The 7 x 12 lathes that I have seen compare favorably with the rather lightweight 618. I may be in the minority, but I am by no means sure that the 618 is a major upgrade. There may be features missing on one and present on the other, but the 7 x 12 have struck me as quite reasonable small machines, honest, useful machines. That is in strong distinction to the "9 x 20" size, which appears to be a passable 6" lathe with spindly riser blocks stretching it past its real limits to the 9" size. The 618 is a known quantity, and in the better versions is quite a useful item. Nothing wrong with it but size. But my thought is that if you really want to do an upgrade, you should not "mark time" with a "step sideways", but actually "upgrade" and get a 10" machine, such as the Atlas 10", or Logan, or even South Bend, which offers "big lathe" features in some 10" models, with full feeds independent of the half nuts (not available with Atlas), QC box, etc. Anything you could do on the 618 you can already do, albeit possibly with a little more trouble. The 10" size offers a wide world of accessories, larger swing, longer bed, more rigidity, and the option of full features not available on the 7x12 and rare as hen's teeth for the 618. JT ------- Re: Should I Buy A Atlas/Craftsman Mk.2 Lathe To Replace My Chinese Posted by: "Charles Gallo" Charliex~xxTheGallos.com Date: Thu Dec 6, 2007 6:58 pm ((PST)) On 12/6/2007 jerdalx~xxsbcglobal.net wrote: > but actually "upgrade" and get a 10" machine, such as the Atlas 10", > or Logan, or even South Bend, which offers "big lathe" features in > some 10" models, with full feeds independent of the half nuts > (not available with Atlas), QC box, etc. And if you do that - do yourself a favor - get either a Southbend "Heavy 10" or one of the Logans that has a spindle that will take a 5C collet I REALLY like my Craftsman 3990 - and I probably have it tooled out with more options than most folks - turret tail stock, lever collet closer, etc etc etc. The one thing I always regret is not having gotten a lathe with a larger spindle size. That said, I can't really complain - I basically stole the 3990 - $450 - in mint condition. Yeah, it was about 12 years ago, but even then... I was the first guy to get there - Dave Ficken of what used to be Meridian Machinery was right behind me. As he said to me "Charlie, if you didn't buy it, I was going to" 73 de KG2V ------- Re: Should I Buy A Atlas/Craftsman Mk.2 Lathe To Replace My... Posted by: "TCHarex~xxaol.com" Date: Thu Dec 6, 2007 9:13 pm ((PST)) I've used the Chinese lathe and I own an Atlas six inch from the 1970's. I prefer the Chinese lathe. It has more Iron and steel and less pot metal, (sorry guys, but Zamak is essentially pot metal). The dials are much larger and satin chrome, infinitely easier to read and work with. It has a variable speed motor, which is preferable to pot metal step pulleys. It has a bigger swing. Parts and accessories are available from Little Machine Shop at reasonable prices, at least when compared to Clausing and E-bay for Atlas. If you have accuracy problems with the Chinese unit, let's take the discussion off line, maybe I can help. Contact me at my Email address: TCHarex~xxaol.com Regards, Tom ------- Re: Should I Buy A Atlas/Craftsman Mk.2 Lathe To Replace My... Posted by: "Brett Jones" brettx~xx5foot2.com Date: Thu Dec 6, 2007 11:28 pm ((PST)) The Zamak parts are perfectly suitable for the intended use of the machines that used the material. The only common failures with the Zamak parts are due to user error. I have worn out gears that came with my 10-F, it's a mid 50's vintage machine. It's hard to complain about a part that lasts 50+ years. The Zamak == pot metal line is tiresome and an example of an ill informed person. It's an alloy that does include zinc, but it's not the same material used to make the die cast toys of my youth. Brett Jones ------- Re: Should I Buy A Atlas/Craftsman Mk.2 Lathe To Replace My... Posted by: "TCHarex~xxaol.com" TCHarex~xxaol.com Date: Fri Dec 7, 2007 12:09 am ((PST)) Yeah, right. That's why the handles broke, (yes, multiple, count it, two). The little handles of the compound crank broke off in my hands in the first two weeks of owning my six inch lathe. I stand five foot seven and I am not a powerful guy, I did not abuse the machine or crash it in any way. I broke the two handles of the compound cranks in the first two weeks with my finger tips. If Zamak is so wonderful, why aren't others using it? Does Prazi use it? Does any manufacturer of small hobby machines use it? Will you find me a place to get good replacements for my very prematurely worn out Zamak Step pulleys? The Chinese do not use Zamak and I still think that is good. Tom ------- Re: Should I Buy A Atlas/Craftsman Mk.2 Lathe To Replace My... Posted by: "bretthjones" brettx~xx5foot2.com Date: Fri Dec 7, 2007 1:26 am ((PST)) Prematurely worm pulleys..... Was this on one of the newly produced Atlas lathes... oh wait, it's been roughly 25 years since an Atlas was produced. What do you consider premature? You can likely get replacements from Clausing. As to why the Chi-Coms don't use Zamak I can't say. Perhaps it's cheaper to make the gears out of plastic and other materials. There must be a significant investment in the tooling to produce die cast parts. It's funny how many people claim that Zamak is complete crap, but there sure are a LOT of vintage Atlas/Craftsman lathes kicking around. If Zamak was all that bad surely these parts made from it should have just turned to dust by now. ------- Re: Should I Buy A Atlas/Craftsman Mk.2 Lathe To Replace My... Posted by: "jerdalx~xxsbcglobal.net" Date: Fri Dec 7, 2007 5:16 am ((PST)) > The Zamak parts are perfectly suitable .... toys of my youth. True, AND FALSE. Substantially false. I have examples of Atlas zamak parts which are in good shape, well preserved. BUT I ALSO have examples of Atlas parts which have failed. NOT BY OPERATOR ERROR, but because the alloy contains lead or other contaminants, and has simply split and fallen apart into flakes over time. Not only that, but while it is TRUE that the zamac parts are "suitable" for the intended use, just barely, it ALSO is true that they are MUCH weaker than a machined or cast iron part, and a mishap which will destroy the zamak might very well have NO EFFECT on the iron or steel equivalent part. Making certain of the gears out of zamac was particularly stupid, especially the table and head adjusting screw gear on my atlas/Clausing industrial 18" drill press. It is CERTAIN to get abused, and predictably, was destroyed in the far distant past. In general, even Atlas didn't use zamak on the industrial tools*. Just on the "cut every corner" hobbyist tools. That alone should be very telling. JT * My DP is a very early version, and I suspect they used what they had to get it done. The gear was later steel, as it is now for replacements. ------- Re: Should I Buy A Atlas/Craftsman Mk.2 Lathe To Replace My... Posted by: "stormcrow_40291" ahzx~xxinsightbb.com Date: Fri Dec 7, 2007 5:19 am ((PST)) > If Zamak is so wonderful, why aren't others using it? Probably because aluminum and steel technology advanced. Atlas used Zamak in lathes for 40 years, at least. Would I prefer steel? You betcha. But that doesn't make Zamak bad. If you had difficulties with the material, I'd suspect that the problem was in the engineering of the part or perhaps the manufacturer made the Zamak incorrrectly. The Zamak on my lathe is 70 years old and looks fine. ------- Re: Should I Buy A Atlas/Craftsman Mk.2 Lathe To Replace My... Posted by: "Joe R" jromasx~xxcolumbus.rr.com Date: Fri Dec 7, 2007 5:45 am ((PST)) We must keep two things in mind while discussing Zamak. First Atlas/ Craftsman made a "affordable" product. How many lathes do you think would have been sold for hobby use if they were all iron and steel like my 9" South Bend and priced accordingly? Secondly as it's been pointed out, most of these machines are 60-70 years old! What else can you name that's that old and still usable with parts still available from the original manufacturer? South Bend, who made heaver machines is long gone. Joe R ------- Re: Atlas 618 for sale-turn key-great shape [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: "catboat15x~xxaol.com" Date: Sat Dec 8, 2007 7:48 am ((PST)) OK I will chime in on the Zamak subject one more time. At one time in my "career" I had to do a lot of maintenance, calibrating and installation on watt-meters. One manufacturer in particular used a Zamak cover for the terminal cover. I noted that on meters installed within a block or so of the sea shore would need replacement as they would crumble and flake apart when touched. While those same covers further inland never needed replacing. So my advice on an Atlas would be don't use or store it on the beach. ------- Re: Atlas 618 for sale-turn key-great shape Posted by: "William Abernathy" williamx~xxinch.com Date: Sat Dec 8, 2007 9:03 pm ((PST)) > So my advice on an Atlas would be don't use or store it on the beach. If I could afford beach-front property, do you think I'd keep an Atlas in the shop? William A. ------- Re: Atlas 618 for sale-turn key-great shape Posted by: "jerdalx~xxsbcglobal.net" Date: Sat Dec 8, 2007 10:19 pm ((PST)) "Brett Jones" wrote: >I live on the salt water. The shop is roughly 400' from the high water > mark. I have a Craftsman I plan on keeping around a while. It'll be > interesting to see how it fares. > The Atlas I'm going to be selling soon was 3 or 4 blocks from the bay > (Southwest Harbor, Maine) when I bought it. I was told it had been there > for a number of years. > I wonder if the general climate has much to do with it or if it's an > alloy or alloy QC issue? Climate may not help. Alloy id probably the biggest issue, including "pollutants" that may be deliberately or inadvertantly added. I live in MO, about as far from salt water as you can get in the US. Zamak here is not immune to problems by any means. A pic of the DP head before repair is in the link. The downfeed handle is removed, it goes on the stub shaft sticking up. You can see the zamak split cotters at the right of the head. For reference, they are about 1 1/4 " diameter, so the DP head is pretty good sized. http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/0803/jstanley/?action=view&cur rent=Dp1.jpg They were covered in a whitish corrosion, (zinc rust) and were swelled up and so stuck in the head that it took a week of effort to just loosen them enough to get the head off. After that it was another struggle to get them actually out. They were replaced with CRS pieces, which work well. The steel parts of the DP were not significantly rusted, the unit showed no evidence of being out in the rain, and was actually still in use when I bought it. Given our location, it is unlikely that it was ever by the seashore. The zamak just plain corroded and swelled up due to possible bad QC or alloy problems. The most usual problem, I am told, is lead in the alloy. The casters WANT lead in it, because lead makes it run better and fill the mold. But lead causes a structure that corrodes, flakes, falls to pieces, or swells up. Other pollutants may cause similar problems. JT ------- Re: Atlas 618 for sale-turn key-great shape Posted by: "catboat15x~xxaol.com" Date: Sun Dec 9, 2007 8:07 am ((PST)) One more on the Zamak stuff, then I will shut up for a while. I was in charge of a testing laboratory that was concerned with building materials. Suddenly there was a rash of failures on plumbing drainage systems where the slip nuts that held the drain tubes under sinks were just crumbling and breaking under normal maintenance. Sure enough investigation and testing showed that the manufacturers of those tubes and joints had discovered die cast Zamak was a lot cheaper than machining brass. I called a couple of the manufacturers of plumbing drainage equipment and eventually was referred to the Zamak corp. A couple of their engineers came out to our lab and examined the corroded and failed nuts. OK the failures were due to two factors, one the alloy used was the cheapest die casting alloy Zamak provided, second the environment under the usual household kitchen sink where the housewife kept her cleaning stuff was probably the worst place to employ Zamak. (Usually damp from kitchen air and condensation, soaps, detergents, unknown chemicals stored there in unsealed boxes, bottles, etc.) The problem was so bad that there were cases of garbage disposers simply dropping out of the sink on to the floor of the undersink compartment. The zamak engineers gave me information on the many different alloys they produced and the problem arises because of the alloys they produced the cheapest and the most easy to mold are the alloys that are subject to that inter granular corrosion and failures. Zamak does provide some alloys that are corrosion resistant and strong, but those alloys are more expensive and are harder to injection mold well (need higher temperatures and harder on the molds). The moral of the story is don't keep your lathe under the kitchen sink. Keep the zamak parts well oiled, greased or protected from corrosive atmospheres in some way and hope that Atlas used one of the better corrosion resistant alloys. (Apparently they did use one of the better alloys, as I doubt if there is much made of cheaper "pot metal" still in use on items as old as our little shop jewels.) Last thought, the situation on the cheap plumbing goods was so bad that municipal code changes were made. John Meacham from the high deserts of Calif 12 inch Atlas lathe, mini mill, HF band saw and a rusty file. ------- Zamak Zamac Zamack Zemak ..... [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: "S or J" jstudiox~xxtbaytel.net Date: Sat Dec 8, 2007 12:24 pm ((PST)) Hi Folks: Kinda think we've been through this Zamak battle before. And likely will again, and again, and ..... I suspect this argument of good versus evil Zamak will go on for a while. Both sides have some good points. My Atlas has 50+ years old gears that are perfectly useable. And yes I would have preferred something more durable. But if I had a complete new set of say steel gears, would they last more than 50 years too? Frankly, I'm not gonna be around in 50 years to see. Call it a draw. Get the right lathe for you at the right price (considering lathe features and your particular needs) and start making stuff, and having fun safely. As for spelling, Wikipedia features its history at: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ZAMAK So Zamak was the first name coined by the inventors, representing the names of the metals being mixed together. And Zamac is an English variant using C for Copper vice the original Germanic K for Kupfer. Why is good spelling significant? Not trivial, just practical. When key words like Zamak are spelled consistently, a newbie (or we) searching the archives will find all the messages on the search subject. Miscellaneous spellings condemn the search engine to finding only a fraction of the messages we might really need. Now back to the workshop to pet my Zamak geartrain ;-) Steve -- in Thunder Bay, Ontario, Canada Machining and Metalworking at Home http://www.janellestudio.com/metal/ ------- Taig Lathe and Clock Building [taigtools] Posted by: "bob_ledoux" bobledouxx~xxproaxis.com Date: Tue Dec 11, 2007 6:18 am ((PST)) Here is an interesting discussion concerning a fellow choosing a lathe for clock building. The Taig is featured. http://www.nawcc-mb.com/bbv2/bbBoard.cgi?a=viewthread;fid=14;gtid=263132 ------- NOTE TO FILE: Thanks to Bob, I got to see a very thoughtful discussion about the pros and cons of various small lathes, along with some smart custom setups for cutting gears that would be useful in general, not just for clocks. And not just for Taig lathes. ------- Introduction [taigtools] Posted by: "down3green" N61W160x~xxgmail.com down3green Date: Sat Jan 12, 2008 12:17 pm ((PST)) Hello everyone. My name is Don. This is my first post on this board. I am a complete newbie to machining and would like to learn to safely operate hobby size equipment in my home shop. Model steam engines and boats fascinate me and my projects would never be any larger than that. My first machining class (since high school) starts next week at our local JC. I thought a class would be a great way for me to get started in the right direction. Eventually I will need to decide on which equipment will best suit my needs. Taig and Sherline both look good to me. The Taig mill looks to be a little more stout in its construction, but I have not had a chance to see any model first hand. I see that some of you Taig owners are converting "upgrading" to the Sherline motor controller and motors which begs the question, "Why not go with Sherline in the first place?" I have also noticed that some of you have multiple lathes and mills, presumably in shops that would put mine to shame :))) As I don't have a lot of space available to me, I would like to make a good choice the first time. Though I suspect that they are both quality units, is there a way for me to make an apples to apples comparison so that I may make a more informed decision? Maybe some of you have used both brands and are able to offer suggestions or point out things I need to consider. Comments are invited and appreciated. Thanks. Don ------- Re: Introduction Posted by: "Blair Shallard" bshallardx~xxmac.com Date: Wed Jan 16, 2008 2:38 pm ((PST)) Hi Don. I'm relatively new here myself, but have been doing various bits of machining on both Sherline and Taig equipment for a while now, mostly to do with clocks. I can't advise you much on the stock Taig motors since my Taig mill has a 240 volt motor, but I have been very impressed with the Sherline motor on my lathe. Some comments on the comparison of the two brands, and these are very much just my opinions based on my own experience. Sherline has a VERY complete complement of tooling and attachments for both lathe and mill, and they have a huge amount of literature to show you how to use it all. The machines are more expensive than the Taigs with a lot more work going into quality of appearance. If you buy Taig machines and need to do more complicated things like cutting gears or maybe boring holes using the mill, you will probably end up buying some Sherline attachments. Generally sherline attachments can be made to fit the Taig machine with little trouble, but do be careful about trying to exchange chucks, as the Taig headstock thread is longer and has an unthreaded register section at the back. A Taig chuck will sort of work on the Sherline, but not vice-versa without some work. One of the common themes I see with Taig lathes is the improvements that users have made to them. They come to you fairly basic, and you can make all sorts of bits to flash them up. The Sherline lathe seems aimed more at people who would rather not have to modify the lathe, but want to immediately make parts for other projects. I have a Sherline longbed lathe with metric scale, and I like the larger work envelope that this machine is capable of as opposed to the Taig lathe. I also have the Taig mill, (metric not an option unfortunately) and I like the extra rigidity of this machine, although I sometimes wish I had a number of Sherline capabilities on this machine. A useful example would be the ability to turn the Sherline into a horizontal mill for easier gear-cutting. I used to have a Taig lathe, and one of my major beefs with it was the short cross slide with very little overhang on the the front. I couldn't fit the Quick change tool post I had and cut large enough diameters. This isn't an issue on the sherline which uses a 6" slide with loads of overhang. Like I said before, larger work envelope. I think a lot of it comes down to different horses for courses. It depends on your budget, and what you plan to do with the machines... Whether you are more inclined to make attachments or buy them. My advise is to spend lots of time on Nick Carter's Taig site learning all you can about these machines and to do the same on the Sherline site doing the same. You may find that one brand suits you better, or like me, you might split between the two. And by doing lots of research first you will build a wealth of knowledge to help you when the machines arrive and you start cutting. Regards, Blair ------- Taig vs Sherline... Posted by: "down3green" N61W160x~xxgmail.com Date: Wed Jan 16, 2008 4:55 pm ((PST)) Hello Blair: Thanks for taking the time to respond to my post. I will take your advice and visit the websites you recommend. I think I have Googled just about everything I can think of relating to these two fine products. I have even looked at Grizzly and Sieg among others. The Sieg SX3 mill looks pretty awesome also. So many choices, so little experience. Regards, Don ------- Re: Introduction Posted by: "Tony Jeffree" tonyx~xxjeffree.co.uk Date: Thu Jan 17, 2008 12:30 am ((PST)) Hi Don - Blair has given some sound advice on the relative merits of the two families of machines, so I won't repeat what he said. The only thing I would add is that the Taig machines are more solidly built than the Sherlines, and are capable of taking heavier cuts as a result. The Taig mill also has a larger "working envelope" (X/Y/Z travel) than the corresponding Sherline machines, and the bench space that they occupy isn't that much different. I have a Taig CNC mill and have fitted a Sherline motor, and also have various Sherline attachments that I use with it (rotary table, angle plate, hold-down kit, etc.) and the combination works very well indeed. Bear in mind that as you get further into metalworking, you will constantly be pushing the boundaries of what your machines are capable of, and eventually, you will probably find that you need (or just want!) a bigger machine. If you start with a higher capacity machine then you put off that day a little bit. And of course, you will still find that the smaller machine has its unique strengths and uses - that is why many of us have more than one lathe/mill in our workshops. Regards, Tony ------- Re: Introduction Posted by: "n2562001" jlkiefferx~xxcharter.net Date: Thu Jan 17, 2008 8:44 am ((PST)) Tony: You have brought up one of the most important considerations when purchasing Taig/ Sherline size Equipment. You are of course correct in that the Taig Mill is slightly larger than the Sherline Mill. If equipment in this size range is purchased for a specific task, then size is an important consideration. However if you purchase this equipment to work in its upper limits you are in deep trouble. In Don`s description he has indicated that he is a beginner that will require a wide range of capabilities to build quality models. Under these conditions the most important thing will be a competent machine, capable of a wide range of set ups supported by a full line of accessories. In addition compatability and interchangeability of the lathe and mill accessories will also be very important. The ability to only concentrate on developing the skill to operate your equipment, and machine needed parts, will assure rapid success. The added skill of learning to manipulate inexpensive poor quality Import equipment to do what you need to do will limit skill development. While some will enjoy equipment modifications, making accessories etc. others do not. So that will be a personal preference thing. One thing I definitely agree with you on is the strength of small equipment. A successful Modelmaking/homeshop will require larger equipment for large parts and smaller equipment for small parts. Unless of course a model or whatever is sized to specific equip- ment. Hands on demo`s of this equipment are priceless before purchase. Both brands are solidly built. Proving one is more solid than the other would be a tough demo -- especially the lathes. Jerry Kieffer ------- Re: Sherline VS Unimat 3 [sherline] Posted by: "Greg Procter" procterx~xxihug.co.nz Date: Sun Feb 10, 2008 11:43 am ((PST)) astroham2003 wrote: > Hello to everyone. Just joined and thinking of purchasing a sherline. > I have been using old reliable Unimat 3 for the past three years > mainly as a lathe but thinking of doing some milling. > How does the Sherline compare to the Unimat 3? What can it do that the > Unimat cannot. Any info that anyone can provide for me would help me > in my decision to purchase a Sherline. Thanks, john Hi John, I own: - Unimat SL - Unimat 3. - Unimat Compact 5. - Sherline 1000 (1972 Aussie) - Sherline 2010CNC mill. I bought the SL second-hand in 1978. By 1990 it was becoming very worn. Besides that it was insufficiently rigid for any real milling. It still does duty as a fine table saw, fine jig saw and wheel press. I bought the Unimat 3 circa 1992 for both turning and milling. It's been great for model railway wheels, gears, fittings etc. For milling it wasn't too bad, particularly as the milling post was at the mid-point of the bed rather than at the headstock mount as with the SL and Sherline. I cooked the 3 motor on a small block of steel while making a new toolpost. It suffered an undignifed accident and is now an accessory supply holder for the 5. Sherline do a seperate Mill design with most parts compatible to their lathes. One can even buy a mill base and transfer the lathe headstock when required. +++ I bought the Unimat Compact 5 because it is a much heavier machine which shares many accessories with the Unimat 3. I bought the Sherline CNC mill because I have a need for CNC, but since then I bought the Sherline 1000 due to the advantages of having common accessories. I've now ordered the 4410CNC lathe to replace the Sherline 1000. For me, the availability of accessories off the shelf at reasonable prices is the deciding point. Having had Emco machines for 30 years, you can guess I was sold on them, but the accessory prices got too high and now they've mostly dropped the hobby/mini market. I considered the available Chinese products and found that one could buy a much more robust machine for one's money, but I figured they needed rebuilding of head bearings etc, and once bought there was definitely no guarentee of manufacturer back-up nor any real chance of buying accessories. Bottom lines: Your lathe is going to be around for a long time! You will need accessories. (from now to eternity) The separate Mill base is a clincher! Unimat is gone. It all depends upon what you intend to do with your equipment. Even more importantly, it all depends upon what you end up doing with your equipment. Regards, Greg.P. ------- Need help deciding on a Sherline lathe and mill...... [sherline] Posted by: "Robert Bowdidge" bowdidgex~xxearthlink.net Date: Mon Nov 24, 2008 10:39 am ((PST)) > Have not done any machining for years...about 30.... > My goal is to build a live-steam scale traction engine. I dont have a > lot of space to deal with. > Was wondering if someone could give me a little advice on how big of a > project the Sherline will handle. I'm in a similar position; I've been interested in machining, but don't have space to permanently set up even a mini-mill. I've chosen a Sherline mill and lathe so that I could set up on a workbench, and put the equipment away when I wasn't working. I've been trying to build Kozo Hiraoka's 3.5" gauge live steam locomotive. I've had to borrow time on larger machines for some pieces so far, but I've been pleased with how much I've been able to do on the Sherline equipment. The main limitation is capacity of the machine. In my case, I couldn't machine the 3.5" drivers on the lathe because they're just too big; in those cases, I got access to larger lathe. In other cases, the Sherline would overheat or take too long for machining and milling operations. This can sometimes be worked around by cutting most of the stock with a hacksaw or jeweler's saw, then using the Sherline mill to do the finishing. More details on what I've accomplished (and my workarounds) here: http://homepage.mac.com/rbowdidge/railroad/livesteam.html With that said, I'd still suggest aiming for smaller projects on your Sherline. I'm also building one of Liney Machine's Halo rotary steam engines. The largest pieces here are 1.75" diameter aluminum, and I really enjoy seeing how fast I can make progress in hours rather than in a full day. Robert ------- Re: Cutting Aluminum (was Beginner's Questions...) [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: "Scott Henion" shenionx~xxshdesigns.org Date: Fri Mar 20, 2009 7:03 pm ((PDT)) indianfourrider wrote: > Friends, One of the main reasons I joined this group was to avail myself of what I hoped would be a vast pool of knowledge. I have not been disappointed. As I mentioned on an earlier post, until I got the 12x36 I was doing everything on a clapped out Unimat SL1000, a benchtop jeweller's/hobby lathe/multi-purpose machine I got in my HO train and slot car days long ago. I have used and abused this little machine for almost 40 years, making it do things it was never designed to do. I am still 'thinking Unimat' when I approach a task on the A/C. Old habits die hard. I am grateful for all of the advice on cutting aluminum. I have made a few test cuts and SURPIRSE! the guys with 50+ years' experience are right! I just faced one of my 6061 T5 slugs using 500 rpm at the spindle and a feed rate of .0048/rev, infeed of .020, dry with my trusty C2 insert. The cut was smooth and even from the edge - 3.75" dia - to the center, no chip welding. < My first lathe was a Sherline 4k (actually Craftsman rebadged one.) When working with steel, you could take of 0.005" on a pass. Forget stainless and anything over 1" as the brass bed was too weak and it just chattered. I did get a better speed controller than the stock light dimmer and I could do more at lower speeds. It was just too fast, too small and to weak for my use. It was very accurate though. I remember turning 1" brass down to 1/2 and spending several hours. Next was a Craftsman 109 6x12. It was better, I could take 0.020" on a pass when everything was tuned right, usually 0.015. Had to do 0.005" or less if you wanted any accuracy. But a sloppy carriage and weak spindle made accuracy difficult. Don't dare turn anything of any length without a tail center. Took me a year to get it reliable enough to any real use. It was real slow turning down steel. With 1/4" tooling, the bits would overheat easily and flex on nay real work. I did not research the 109 before I bought it. If I had, I never would have gotten one. The Craftsman 12x36 was a Craig's list deal. One of those "I have no idea what it was worth, come get it" deals. Called as soon as the ad appeared and said I'll pick it up the next day. I did as much research as I could before going to see it. Found machinists forums that laughed it off "weak" as it can only take 0.040" on a pass. They considered any lathe that can not take off 0.125" on a pass as a toy lathe. This forum mentioned repairable items like half nuts and bearings as the only problems I saw. So, when I saw it and the gobs of tooling, I jumped on it. So, coming from two weak, tiny lathes. this was a huge step up. I am still getting used to taking more than a few thou on a pass. With a steady stand and everything adjusted, it can do respectable work. I picked up almost a dozen bars of 6063 alum stock 1" to 2.25". I keep taking deeper cuts at higher speeds and the 12x36 just chugs along. I am so used to tiny wires coming off. I;m not used to seeing the heavy swarf coming off. My 12x36 came with 3/8" indexable carbide cutters. They worked well but cuts on steel would leave a sandpaper finish. I rotated the inserts and it got better but not as smooth as a HSS bit. I found some better inserts off ebay (Mistubishi, never knew they made such things.) These are a dream to use. Mirror finish on just about anything. Have been trying deeper cuts. Last weekend did some 0.050" cuts on 1.5" aluminum at about 800 RPM. After 2 passes the bar was quite warm but the cutter was reasonable. I do not calculate spindle speeds, or max cutting speed. You can tell a lot by the swarf. Any bluing on steels is probably too hot. Aluminum will curl nicely at decent feeds but get brittle on too fast. I'm in the same boat. I abused the Sherline; I remember turning some 1.375" stainless that nearly destroyed the thing. Light cuts and slow was all you could do. Same for the 109. I was always wanting to do more in less time but was severely limited by the tools. Having a "real" lathe compared to the two hobby lathes is a big satisfaction. I have almost 3 years on these lathes (5 months on the 12x36"). Still learning a lot from this group. Yes this group is a big asset. Got me up to speed on my 12x36 in no time. Was fun picking their brains on the dozens of mystery parts that came with the lathe. Interesting you say you want to turn new reflectors. I had turned a MIG gun adapter on the 109. Took me most of a day. Just a 1" brass hex bar, half turned down to 1/2" and other end center bored 5/8". Just did another and it took me an hour. Came out so much more accurate as the first bore was tapered due to the inaccuracy of the 109. Had done another on the Sherline before; I remember hanging the tailstock half off the end of the bed to get a drill bit to fit. I respected the Sherline, but was tired of its limitations. I loathed the 109. I spent most time on it tweaking it after it produced yet another crappy result. Move cutter 0.002 and it takes off 0.005 and you are too small, start over ;) I am gaining more and more respect for the 12x36. Yes, it has limitations, but they are manageable. I bet you can take 0.025 on a pass, that is my standard cut even on steel (maybe a bit less on facing.) Takes a lot of getting used to by us guys that learned on tiny lathes. I'm surprised you lasted 40 years with a Unimat. I was fed up with the Sherline after 6 months. I could see it great for HO models, pens, clocks etc, but I was making parts for R/C planes (modified chain saw engines) and motorcycles. But like you said ".. things it was never designed to do". Been there, done that. We both will take a while to get used to being able to do a lot more. ;) Scott G. Henion http://shdesigns.org/Craftsman-12x36/ ------- Re: Newbie Questions Re Purchasing [sherline] Posted by: "n2562001" jlkiefferx~xxcharter.net Date: Fri Mar 27, 2009 7:46 am ((PDT)) "Chris Werner" wrote: > Greetings all. I've been lurking here and elsewhere and am closing in on buying some Sherline equipment. I'd appreciate some feedback on the following to help me make the right purchasing decisions. 1. Lathe first, Mill second - right? 2. 17" bed will keep me happier longer than the 8" - correct? 3. This is where I'm really stumped - basic setup vs. DRO vs. CNC - what are the pluses and minuses of each? It's easy to get the impression from reading the internet that everyone is using CNC, but my instincts tell me that's unlikely. In addition to the pluses and minuses, how big are the trade-offs? In terms of the things I want to do, it's going to be all over the map, but replicas of antique scientific instruments like orreries, tellurion, astronomical clocks, weather instruments, microscopes, models of telescopes, plus other things like working small engines hold a particular interest. Also, I'm completely new to metalworking but have some decent experience as a woodworker, which I had to give up because of the wood dust complicating my allergies. That and I was running out of room for the large projects woodworking encourages - one can only have so many bookcases and cabinets. Thanks in advance for the help. Chris. < Chris: Great question but only you can answer this question based on actual use of the machines. Personally I have been using Sherline machines since about the mid 80`s for all of the things you have mentioned plus some. To do what you will want to do you will need both a lathe and mill that work together. Sher- line is currently one of the only small systems offering this advantage. If you need a long bed Sherline you of course need it. I would only suggest it if you actually need it for a good part of your work. About 99% of what you have mentioned can be done on the short bed. The problem with the long bed is the uncomfortable/difficult to monitor position of the carriage handwheel if you spend a lot of hours on the machine. I recently completed 1/8 scale farm tractor about 12" long with hundreds of one off parts requiring over 6000 hours to construct as a size example. Not one time was a long bed Lathe required for this project. The same would apply for CNC. If most of your work is repetitive, then YOU NEED CNC. However the type of work you mentioned will for the most part require one off parts. For this work, things like the CNC rotary table will be very helpful. Full CNC hobby systems will offer no advantage over manual if time frame and work efficiency is a concern. Or at the very least most of the time. Your greatest advantage for the type of work mentioned will be your ability to fabricate parts from multiple parts welded or silver soldered together. You will encounter many parts with internal and external cavities that are just not possible with CNC. While many on this list disagree with me on this, I have been waiting years for demonstrations to the contrary on hobby CNC machines. Maybe Mr. Ginger will impress the heck out of me this year at the NAMES show. The leadscrews on the Sherline machines are very accurate and the hand- wheel markings are very clear and easy to read. The major advantage to available DRO`s on these machines will be the larger easy to read displays. Actual accuracy will decrease especially with inexpensive after market systems and cheap calipers. Jerry Kieffer ------- Re: Newbie Questions Re Purchasing Posted by: "Art Fish" 1art2fishx~xxcomcast.net Date: Fri Mar 27, 2009 7:24 am ((PDT)) Chris: I don't have a lot of experience on CNC, but can give my feelings on plan equipment. On the CNC, you will have to learn a whole bunch of new software, and it is really good for making repeat parts, though I question 'one off' parts. It's been years since I attempted to use a CAD program, maybe they have become simpler to use, so unless you want to learn a bunch of stuff every time you make a part it's something to consider. The Digital Readout would be very handy though, at the time of my purchase I couldn't afford that luxury. I purchased the short bed lathe, with vertical column so I would also have a mill. The bed is too short, would never recommend the short bed version. If you have a part more than about 3" long, there is no way to hold anything in the tailstock, also, sometimes the tailstock is too close to hold some longer tools between work and tailstock. The vertical column works good as long as you don't have anything longer than 2" to mill as you only have about 2 1/2 x 2 1/2 area under the mill head to work in. If you have the money to do it get separate lathe and mill, and get the mill that will be capable of longer work, ie, longer bed, etc. As for which to buy first, if you've never done lathe/milling, and can only get one at a time, I would recommend getting the lathe first. You can learn a lot on the lathe, much of which applies to the mill. Also, you might want to go to Smartflix.com and check out some of their videos; they only a couple of bucks each and they have a lot of videos on milling, lathe work, making tools etc. Art Fish Back in Time Clock Repair Corvallis, OR USA ------- Re: Newbie Questions Re Purchasing Posted by: "Jim Ash" ashcanx~xxearthlink.net Date: Fri Mar 27, 2009 12:54 pm ((PDT)) A lot of your answer comes down to personal preferences. I spend my day fooling with computers. I don't really want to come home and spend more time with them to get the part I want, and I happen to think that turning the wheels by hand is therapeutic, in a strange, nerdy kind of way. But I enjoy the process of creating, not just having the final product. That being said, once in a while I've made parts for myself or friends and the goal was to get it done. For those times, I'd probably use CNC if I had access to it. Jim Ash ------- Re: Newbie Questions Re Purchasing Posted by: "a3sigma" dcclark111x~xxcomcast.net Date: Sat Mar 28, 2009 2:50 am ((PDT)) Hello Chris: Regular readers will know that my favorite answer to nearly every question is "All of the above". I have a 2000 Mill, long bed Lathe, Rotary Table, all CNC and DRO equipped. My areas of interest are model engineering and clockmaking. I bought the complete CNC package and added the DRO some years later. While it seems redundant, I'm very glad to have both. The DRO is simply an electronic readout of the handwheel position. But I use it constantly, even when I'm CNC machining. There is no feedback from the machines to the CNC controller, so the monitor shows only the commanded position, not what's actually happening. CNC machining doesn't have to be a big deal. If you use it as nothing other than a way to have powered leadscrews, it's worthwhile. Though I worked as a CNC machinist, since I've retired I've never had occasion to use any CAM software. Ninety plus percent of all my CNC is done with a half dozen simple little routines I've written with replaceable parameters to peck drill, mill circles, and iteratively mill down edges and surfaces, and to iteratively turn, face, and bore on the lathe. I'm happy to share these routines. The other ten percent is simple 2-1/2D shapes. I write that code by hand, but there is free software to generate such toolpaths from free or low cost CAD programs. I've never had an occasion to do any 3D contouring, and can't imagine one. And machining involves a lot of iterative operations. Turning those wheels does get old after a while. With the work you've described, you're certainly going to want to get into making gears. Milling gear teeth on a rotary table without CNC is extremely tedious, and presents an opportunity for error with every turn of each wheel. One mistake will spoil hours of work. Likewise with milling spokes in a gear or flywheel. CNC code for gear cutting is also just iteration, and spoke cutting a simple tool path. Without CNC you're pretty much confined to making square parts. You can't mill a circle, put a radius on a corner, or even cut an angle. Yes, it's possible to do all these things with an RT. But again, super tedious, error prone, and very limited in size on a small table. Clock and instrument making will also lead you to want to do some engraving. DeskEngrave is a free program that will generate CNC code from text in any TrueType font. But, be prepared for a lot of requests to make ID tags for dogs and luggage. Regarding the 2000 vs 5400 mill: I don't recall ever using the milling head at an angle other than horizontal or vertical, preferring to use an angle table or rotary table in all cases. In fact, I'm thinking of eliminating that axis to make a simpler, stiffer mill column. However, I've found the other axes of the 2000 invaluable for setting up as an offset horizontal mill, and this is the best position I've found for using the rotary table. It can also greatly extend the working area of the mill. To my mind, the biggest selling point of Sherline equipment is the well thought out modular, interchangeable capability of all their hardware. It's a beautifully integrated package, and you can certainly build up your system over time. There's a lot to be said though, for biting the bullet and springing for a complete package if your finances permit. Of course you must be certain that you're going to want to spend enough time working with it to justify the cost. I have the opposite problem: finding enough time in a day, or a life, to do all I want to do. Best regards, David Clark in Southern Maryland, USA ------- Re: Newbie Questions Re Purchasing Posted by: "Ron Ginger" rongingerx~xxroadrunner.com Date: Sat Mar 28, 2009 8:39 am ((PDT)) Ok, I can never let a CNC discussion go without jumping into it. I am strictly a hobby guy, although I have done some jobs for others for which I have made a few dollars. I am not talking abot commercial use of CNC, just hobby use. I will be giving a seminar at NAMES in a couple weeks titled 'Adventures in Home Shop CNC' In the past I have talked more about the process of building CNC machines, this time Ill try to do more on using it. I have been tinkering in this space for over 10 years now, and I can now make parts very routinely. Jerry cannot come to my seminar and heckle because he will be giving one on 'Silver Soldering and fabricating Small Parts' at the same time. To bad because Id like to hear him. I strongly disagree with the 'CNC is no good for one-off'. Last night I made a simple square plate with rounded corners and several holes. Its the back plate for the water pump on the Rider Ericsson engine. I need just one of them., It took me about 5 minutes to draw it in TurboCad, then about 3-4 minutes to develop the gcode with sheetcam. I clamped a small sheet of stock to the mill table and ran the program. It first drilled 3 sizes of holes, so I had to change drills 3 times, then I put in a 3/16 end mill and the part was profiled. I made the cut in 3 passes .050 deep, with a finish allowance of .010. Final op was a finish cut all around. I programmed 2 holding tabs to hold the work in place, so I had to cut them loose and file off the trace of the tab. Total time well under an hour. Manually how would you have made 4 nice filleted corners? moved the piece 4 times on a rotary table? Or just filed a 'mostly round' corner. My part looks perfect, crisp firm edges, all holes lined up exactly with the casting- its holes were also CNC drilled. Now I know for a hobby guy time is not supposed to matter. But if I were making that part by hand I would not have taken the time to make it as perfect as I got on my CNC mill. So I make much better parts, faster, and I cam make more models. When I need 2 or more copies its even better - this Rider engine has a bunch of links- simple 'dog-bone' shapes. Again, very tedious to make on manual equipment, a simple load and go on CNC. Now Jerry says he has made some cavities that could not be cut by CNC. Id like to see one of those. I recently cut a keel mold for a friend, a kind of tear drop shape about 9" long for lead castings. It ran over 3 hours on the cnc mill, probably 50,000 lines of code. Crank that one by hand. And earlier yesterday I cut a 3" taper pipe thread into a throttle valve for a locomotive we are restoring for the WW&F Ry. The code made 200 steps around the circle 12 times, with each move being an XY and Z coordinated move. Hand crank that one! So CNC has greatly expanded the things I can make. I will admit I am only now to the point where I just go make parts. For several years my hobby has been the building of CNC machines. This Rider engine is the first model I have made in several years. So CNC is not for everyone, but for me it has greatly expanded my hobby allowing me to make more and better models than I could otherwise. ron ginger ------- Re: Newbie Questions Re Purchasing Posted by: "a3sigma" dcclark111x~xxcomcast.net Date: Sat Mar 28, 2009 10:26 am ((PDT)) Hi Ron: If I were making that part, I wouldn't bother with CAM or even CAD. I'd type the G code directly on the Sherline computer from a pencil sketch; using tool offsets for my roughing and finish cuts. I'd MDI to each of the hole locations and there run my little peck drilling routine. It would take us both about the same amount of time, I think, and our results would be indistinguishable and interchangeable. In fact, I just made such a part a few days ago: the cylinder base for my Fulton Steamboat engine. Of course more complex parts require CAD/CAM. But my point is that a new hand should not be discouraged from getting CNC by thinking that he has to master CAD and CAM before he can make any useful parts. A vast amount of fine work can be done with such simple techniques as above. Including, I'll contend, all of Elmer's, Jan Ridder's, and nearly any other of the hundreds of engines from bar stock with plans freely available. Not to mention a like number of clocks and other mechanisms. In any event, I suggest that a beginner first learn manual machining, then progress to power feeds with simple jogging and MDI, then work up to writing or adapting some code before graduating to CAM and complex 3D contours with thousands of lines of code. One can always stop when they get to the level they need to do the work that interests them. Please don't make the new comers feel that they can't do anything unless they can do everything. Best regards, David Clark in Southern Maryland, USA ------- Re: Newbie Questions Re Purchasing Posted by: "n2562001" jlkiefferx~xxcharter.net Date: Sat Mar 28, 2009 5:18 pm ((PDT)) Ron Ginger wrote: > Jerry cannot come to my seminar and heckle because he will be giving one > on 'Silver Soldering and fabricating Small Parts' at the same time. Ron: I of course enjoy a good heckler at my seminars (unless it's an old girl friend) to liven things up. However I would never heckle an older and wiser gentlemen such as yourself. > Manually how would you have made 4 nice filleted corners? moved the > piece 4 times on a rotary table? Or just filed a 'mostly round' corner. There is no doubt that technology will rule in the near future. In fact the new lower cost scanners have already made what is being discussed here obsolete. Unfortunately even that technology cannot do some of the things needed to build scale models. Removing metal is only one part of designing building or duplicating a part. I personally chose to develop skills in machining, fabrication and metal surface minipulation/appearance for one off type parts. It has served me well for what I wish to do. Had I conditioned myself to rely on the current state of Hobby CNC machines, most of what I have built to date simply would not exist. As I have said many times, as soon as a more efficient method is demonstrated and becomes available, I will use it. I will be happy to show you several examples at the NAMES show of items that can be easily machined/fabricated but cannot be machined by CNC. You can report back to the group after the show if you would like. Now to your question on the corners. Of course you can easily round corners on a plate with a CNC system. (If I understand what you're doing.) I would hope so. But you have been thinking CNC for too long when you state how else would you do it. Personally I think of fabrication of a part with machining regardless of how it is done as only a part of construction. When these skills are used and developed on daily basis you can easily and efficiently construct parts that simply cannot be made by machining alone. CNC or not. If CNC is not available, accurately rounding corners is certainly not an issue. As part of the fabrication process, I have collected a couple of cheap hardened radius gage sets over the years. I simply apply grease to them and they stick to wherever I place them for positioning. In this case one on each side of the plate in the corners. They would then be positioned in place using an eye loop and clamped with a vise grip. From that point a few swipes of a file until it is stopped by the gages, will provide a equal and probably more accurate radius and most likely better surface finish than your CNC. Average time per corner when you are used to the process is about 60 seconds for smaller corners with 1/4" radius or less and a sharp file. I certainly have no issue with CNC and would suggest that it should be used where it has an advantage. Unfortunately many of those who promote it for one-off parts in a small shop environment, have convinced many it is the one and only efficient method of construction. Simply not true in many cases. Jerry Kieffer ------- 3 in 1 Machines [barstockengines] Posted by: "Carl" frazer51x~xxyahoo.com Date: Wed May 6, 2009 8:56 am ((PDT)) Almost 20 years ago, having absolutely no experience with machining, I bought a 3 in 1, HQ400 with the Shoptask label attached. It has many limitations and devising work arounds took time and thought. That said, I've never been sorry and although now I have a 12x36, a 7x10 lathe, a minimill and a large mill/drill, I still use the 3 in 1 for most lathe work. I don't use the mill on the 3 in 1 now, just the lathe. My first few engines were built entirely on the 3 in 1, including the gears and rings. I have found the 3 in 1 to be more accurate than the 12x36 with much better repeatibility. If I found that I had to move into a small area, the 3 in 1 is the one that I would keep, limitations not- withstanding. It is capable of building engines, just takes time to set up and switch between functions. Opinions are of course like certain body orifices, everybody has one. Everything is a compromise in one way or another. What works best for me, is the 3 in 1 as a lathe and the mill/drill for milling and drilling. If you're interested in a 3 in 1 machine, check out the groups devoted to those machines. There are a lot of pictures of mods and fixtures to work around the shortcomings of the machines. You all have a good day. Carl Felty ------- Re: Multi-purpose machines? Posted by: "Dennis" huckfinn1963x~xxcomcast.net Date: Fri May 8, 2009 7:42 am ((PDT)) I had a multipupose machine a 3 in1 lathe mill and drill, had to get rid of it as I couldn't see moving it into my basement at our new home without a garage. When I get a garage again I'm buying the machine back from my brother. It's the larger machine that harbor freight sells and grizzly used to sell. Has power travel on both the carriage and the cross slide which makes milling and turning much nicer. It weighs nearly 700lbs as well which makes for a stiffer machine. It still needs tweaking like all the mini stuff, but when done it'll outperform the mini stuff. As for switching over, it's not bad. I clean my stuff between setups anyway, plus I like to put away my tools and oil coat the tools and machines lightly to protect them. This keeps the shop safe for me and my family and I know where everything is that way as well. It's a good habit to been in; you'll always feel good about walking into a clean shop, especially when visitors come over. Dennis ------- Beginner looking for Sherline info [sherline] Posted by: "shaptonshaver" chris-rmax~xxqwest.net Date: Thu Jul 2, 2009 7:29 am ((PDT)) Hello to all: I'm an aspiring metalworking hobbyist; I'm still in the research stages of deciding on which mini-lathe and mini-mill to purchase. Sherline intrigues me not the least of which because the products are made in the USA, a rare occurrence these days. I'll be using the lathe and mill primarily for making small fasteners for knives and cutlery. Think decorative screws with corresponding bored and threaded female counterparts to receive the screw. OD of these screws would be between 1/16" and 1/8" and 1/2"-3/4" in length. I would also like to get into miniature engine projects. Part of my search has included watching some youtube videos on Sherline, Micro-Mark and Taig machines. One user of a Sherline mill was milling delrin and had been asked what he thought of Sherline. He said he liked Sherline products but said if you're cutting any type of metal on the Sherline lathe, in his experience, the lathe had too much "flex" to the bed and was a disadvantage. I plan on boring and threading small round stock of various types of metal. Will flex be a problem for me? Would a Sherline lathe have too many limitations for what I'd like to do? I'm also at a disadvantage since I'm ignorant and uneducated in this area; I don't want to spend a significant amount of money and be disappointed. I will say buying American means a lot to me if I can. I also like the idea that the Sherline lathe and mill are portable since my workshop gets very humid in the summer and I would worry about storing precision equipment for fear it would rust. I would plan on bringing the equipment into a basement work area that is climate controlled. Small and portable, but at the cost of being rigid enough to handle what I'd like to do? Backlash was an irritation that I see expressed, but I've read instructions on the Sherline.com website on how to reduce backlash. Based on the little I've described in what I'd like to use Sherline tools for at the outset, what sort of information, advice, recommendations, etc. do you have for me? Sorry for the ramble. Any help would be appreciated. Chris ------- Re: Beginner looking for Sherline info Posted by: "Joseph Bautsch" joe.bautschx~xxgmail.com Date: Thu Jul 2, 2009 9:35 am ((PDT)) Chris - The allegations of the Sherline lathe bed having too much "flex" is a lot of hogwash. If you are causing the bed on a Sherline to "flex" then you are trying to use it way over its capacity or you don't know what you are doing. I've used Sherline mills and lathes for the past 19 years and have never had a problem with the bed flexing. The big advantage Sherline has over the other lathes in the same size range is the large number of attachments, accessories and parts available at reasonable prices. Another big advantage Sherline has is that all of their updated designs will fit all of their lathes and mills no matter how old. Which means the lathe and mill you buy to day will not be outdated next week when the manufacturer changes models. ------- Re: Beginner looking for Sherline info Posted by: "kuhncw" kuhncwx~xxyahoo.com Date: Thu Jul 2, 2009 11:47 am ((PDT)) I second what Joseph said. I find that more and more of my smaller work goes to my Sherline. It does a fine job and I've actually been amazed at what it will cut in 12L14 leaded steel. I see no evidence of bed flex. Unless you are making long parts, I'd suggest the short bed lathe as that puts the feed for the carriage closer to the chuck which makes it easier to operate. My small mill is a Taig and I've been very happy with it also. Good luck and keep asking questions. Regards, Chuck ------- Re: Beginner looking for Sherline info Posted by: "chieftoolmaker" chieftoolmakerx~xxearthlink.net Date: Thu Jul 2, 2009 11:55 am ((PDT)) Chris, Go for the Sherlines..... Perfect for the application you intend. Flex should not be a deterrent.... Mini lathes and mills need not be used to simulate full sized machines. American manufacture is a big plus in my book. Regards, Jerry G (Glickstein) P.S. Available 24/7 for any questions and problems you may encounter. (Ask my girlfriend Henny if you disbelieve the 24/7 bit....) ------- Re: Beginner looking for Sherline info Posted by: "bushman31x~xxaol.com" Date: Thu Jul 2, 2009 2:33 pm ((PDT)) When I first got my lathe I used to do some heavy cuts. Simply because I didn't know any better, and sometimes still don't. Yet I have always had extremely small variance in diameter throughout my work pieces. To me, and I may be wrong, that would indicate basically no flex, or too small to measure. Of course proper mounting would help control any flex as well. Plus, if you have a problem, question, or just want to bother someone, you CANNOT beat Sherline for customer service. That is a plain fact. Ron Wilkinson Great Salt Lake Ship Modeling and Research Society Nautical Research Guild Society For Nautical Research ------- Re: Beginner looking for Sherline info Posted by: "a3sigma" dcclark111x~xxcomcast.net Date: Fri Jul 3, 2009 10:01 am ((PDT)) Hello Chris, and welcome, While not disagreeing with anything that's been said by others in this thread, I'll add a few thoughts: It's important for a beginner to realize that flexing (and backlash) are simply facts of machining life that must be dealt with. Cutting tools, and the workpiece itself, flex somewhat. Successful machining involves understanding and managing these effects. Sherline tools are very well engineered and manufactured to high standards. I consider them to be the best value (quality vs cost) in benchtop machines available today. Operating within their design parameters, they will do just about any machining job that will fit their working envelope. There's no better testimony to this than a good look around the Sherline website and the files and photos in this group. See what's been done by others. Consider what things you want to do. Does it look like a match? And speaking of working envelope: I recommend the long bed lathe. Sooner or later you may wish you had it. I've also added the extended X and Z axis options to my milling machine. Wish I'd had those from the beginning as well. Another important feature that hasn't been mentioned yet is the modular design of the Sherline lathe, mill, and rotary table: the ability to use many of the same tools and fixtures, and to machine different features, moving a part between the machines, is a great asset. Especially when making gears and other parts having features that require both turning and milling operations. Have fun, David Clark in Southern Maryland, USA ------- Re: Jerry Kieffer; Re; that engine in your photo album... [taigtools] Posted by: "n2562001" jlkiefferx~xxcharter.net Date: Fri Aug 14, 2009 9:30 am ((PDT)) "crackerfactory03" wrote: > ...It is an example of extraordinary workmanship! You referred to it when answering the gentleman who inquired about what tooling to buy. I was wondering whether you made this model engine using the Taig lathe and mill exclusively or did you use other equipment as well? (yes; I know the equipment does not make the machinist, and that it is more the other way 'round, still, I am in awe of the tolerances that those tiny gears imply) I know you use Sherline equipment as well. For the type of work involved with this model engine you built, is the Sherline lathe of more value to you (that is, moreso than the Taig?) and if so, why? I have the Taig lathe and Mill, but not a sherline. I may consider adding one to the "workshop" if the advantages warrant it for such tiny, precise work. I do find the Taig's rapid traverse handwheel and rack system a bit hard to move in tiny increments and feel the Sherline's screw advance may be an advantage in that regard. Any comment would be helpful. Curtis < Curtis: Thank you for the kind words. I own two Taig Lathes but do not own a Taig Mill at this time. (But have in the past.) The model shown in the photo was made on a Sherline Lathe and Mill for the following reasons. Variable speed motor was required to get the proper finish desired by adjusting speeds under load and observing the finish. This saves much time on final finish. The variable speed was also required to allow the use and prevent breaking of small tooling. For small work WW/8MM collets are a must. Sherline's adaptor system allowed the use of a wide range of collets styles, types and brands by simply changing adaptors as required. As an example, you can machine the OD of the adaptor to fit any brand or type of expansion collet. The adaptor system also retained the large spindle bore also required in some cases. Calibrated leadscrew handwheels on all axis are also a must with micro machining projects. This again is required for the accurate control of small expensive tooling that in turn prevents breakage. On any small lathe if you are to do small accurate quality work, lathe alignment must be adjustable in all directions. If not then it must be built in at the factory; that can cost as much as $20,000.00 - $30,000.00 such as a Levin. Sherline offered both headstock and tailstock alignment options in ALL directions. When building small scale models to exact scale, proper Taps and Dies are simply not available. All of the available thread sizes are far too course. For example if you are to taper thread a small fitting with a course thread then you will have no meat left for a proper size center passage. Sherline offered a threading system down to 130 TPI as it came from the factory for making Taps and Dies as well as single point threading. Using additional Sherline threading gears and support arms the system was easily modified to go down to 500 TPI. While 500 TPI is seldom used, 300-400 TPI is used on a regular basis. In addition, because of Sherline's rotating headstock, Taper threads can be cut without modification. This allows for single point cutting of scale pipe fittings and exact scale wood screws. It is also a must that a Lathe and mill be able to work together so that work pieces can be easily and accurately transferred from lathe to Mill. Accessory options to do so are a godsend when you are spending thousands of hours on a project. Unlike Chinese tools, my Taig equipment has the construction quality to do this type project. However my Sherline equipment did not require the modifications that would have been required to do the work on the Taig, so it was simpler to use the Sherlines. I do use my Taig Lathe for 100% of my glass and optical work. I find that it is ideal for this type of work. Jerry Kieffer ------- Thanks Jerry, for the in-depth reply... [taigtools] Posted by: "crackerfactory03" curtis.normanx~xxcomcast.net Date: Fri Aug 14, 2009 9:59 am ((PDT)) ...You make your point about the Sherline's versatility very well. I had not even considered that being able to rotate the headstock would enable the manufacture of taper-taps of small size, but it certainly is a good selling point (among the many other advantages that you mentioned). It looks like my "shop" will be getting a Sherline somewhere in the near future! I hope the forum members don't mind this off-topic discussion, since I realize that this is a Taig tools forum, still, I am sure that many of us have other brands of tooling that we use (I have a Chinese 9 X 20 in addition to my Taig mill and Taig lathe), so hopefully no one will be upset at the mention of Sherline's equipment. Thanks again, Jerry, Curtis ------- Re: The Taig is by far [taigtools] Posted by: "James Eckman" ronin_engineerx~xxcomcast.net Date: Mon Aug 17, 2009 9:06 am ((PDT)) I have owned on of the earlier 7x10s many years ago, it did not work well for me; I also didn't really know what I was doing. I suspect as with most tools you will get what you pay for. That being noted; * If you want to work on larger pieces, the Chinese lathes have a larger work envelope. Quality is extremely variable. * There are extensive user groups for ALL mini-lathes (except Clisby?), this is a non-issue. * Both the Taig and Sherline compound rests are a bit on the weak side. However Sherline allows you to rotate the headstock which is a nice work around. * I think the Taig's flat bed is great for freehand turning with a device I call a puck. http://home.comcast.net/~ronin_engineer/tools.jpg I use it for brass turnings in collets. The nice part is that you can combine this with the standard saddle and use it for breaking edges. I prefer this to gravers. * Sherline has a well thought out threading system for small parts. I think the Micromark lathe has a handcrank as well, it's really too fast to automatically thread with these machines for small parts. * I like the Taig's fast saddle traverse combined with the stop. Used with form tools I have done forms up to 1/4" wide feeding very fast of course in brass. * Sherline has a very wide range of accessories but it's also $$$ compared to the Taig. I do mostly model railroad work in 1/48th which the Taig is great for. I use taps and dies for threads and do free hand turning. Minimum setup for this is: K1019 Taig kit $159.50 1030 4 jaw $64.75 1035 Face plate 3 1/4" $14.90 1040 Collet set $30.80 1150 Drilling tailstock $39.50 + drill chuck, you may have one already!!!! Motor + pulleys $25.80 Pulley set depends on motor shaft. Some extra tool posts As a replacement for Mel Thornburgh's egg beater drill this cannot be beat, especially since the larger versions are very expensive nowadays! I'm very tempted though to get a Sherline since I want to start doing some fancy threading and some larger steel wheels which the rotating headstock will work well for, but $$$$! Jim ------- Re: The Taig is by far Posted by: "n2562001" jlkiefferx~xxcharter.net Date: Mon Aug 17, 2009 4:37 pm ((PDT)) James Eckman wrote: > I have owned on of the earlier 7x10s many years ago, it did not work > well for me; I also didn't really know what I was doing. I suspect as > with most tools you will get what you pay for. Jim: You could not be more right. When I started out, price was the first consideration and capabilities plus proven results was second even if considered. I just assumed I could make do. As a slow learner it took several years to understand that I lost big time. Tools that I purchased based mostly on price turned out to be some of the most expensive tools that I have ever owned. However the real killer was the lack of developed skill from lack of equipment capability and years I can never get back from being a slow learner. The real eye opener was to test all available options before purchase. Having been through this process, it is very interesting to wander through a model engineering show. More times than not you can look at a model and almost tell what type of equipment it was built on. > I'm very tempted though to get a Sherline since I want to start doing > some fancy threading and some larger steel wheels which the rotating > headstock will work well for, but $$$$! Jim I think you would be very happy with Sherline's threading system. It has at least five times the inch and metric thread pitch options of other threading systems on small lathes. (Including right and left on all pitches.) Threading capabilities is the foundation of any smaller scale model or other small construction. Available Taps and Dies are simply never the right size and the thread pitch is alway far too course. I have posted a photo of a .009" X 354 TPI Tap single point cut on the Sherline system under my name. The Engine beside it could not exist without this capability. Course oversized threading throughout the Engine would make it non-functional and look like a complete out of scale cobble job. This would not be possible on my 7X12 Grizzly lathe because repeatability would be plus or minus several threads. The wide range of thread pitches also has other advantages. It allows the cutting of worm gear worms or the reproduction of a worm. This is done in the same manner as threading but with the use of a single point gear cutter held in the tool post. (Sample shown in attached photo.) The wide range also allows for cutting spring winding profiles. A photo of a special unavailable scale taper spring and the profile cut to wind it is also posted. Other Items include spirals on a shaft etc. The list goes on and on. I can no longer even imagine building a model without these capabilities, or not having developed the skills. This of course only applies if you're serious about the hobby of micro machining. It makes the difference between something you set on the back shelf and something you display that you are extremely proud of -- that gives untold satisfaction. Jerry Kieffer ------- Re: Struggling with Decision [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: "wheezer" wheezer606x~xxverizon.net Date: Sun Dec 20, 2009 9:38 am ((PST)) Thanks Everyone, This is what I have heard so far; Heavy old quality machines are in demand, still cost lots of money, parts are scarce and pricey. The appeal in large part is to people who like to refurbish these classics and / or who need to turn heavy work. Size your machine to the maximum work you might turn and keep a small machine for smaller work. It takes LOTS of time to find a good quality older machine in good operating condition. Luck and distance play a large part. If you buy new, buy the heaviest machine you can afford. Other thoughts? lance ------- Re: Struggling with Decision Posted by: "Rexarino" rexarinox~xxgmail.com Date: Sun Dec 20, 2009 2:02 pm ((PST)) Lance, I called a new and used machine tool dealer about 36 years ago, and asked if he had any 10" or 12" lathes for sale (Denver area). He laughed and said he had 20 people on a waiting list. I asked to be put on the list, he said OK, and I figured he would call a few years later and I would get a lathe sometime after my wife and I bought our first house. We were living in a small mobile home, building up a bank account. He called back 3 months later with a factory crated 12" Craftsman that had been hauled around the country by a guy that was about to be transferred for the fourth time - and I was the first person of 22 on the list with ready money. That lathe sat behind the couch in the living room until my wife finally made me go buy a house, "so I would have a proper shop"! Still an excellent wife, 39 years later! The moral is, it may not take as long as you expect, if you let the right person know you are looking. If you want to turn large diameter faceplate work, you can achieve that on a horizontal mill with a little innovation. Nothing says you can't remove the overarm, mount a faceplate or chuck on a modified arbor, and mount a cutting tool on the mill table... Rex ------- Re: Struggling with Decision= Need Thinking Help Posted by: "meerrdenx~xxcomcast.net" meerrdenx~xxcomcast.net Date: Sun Dec 20, 2009 11:33 am ((PST)) Hi Guys: I have seen a lot of good advice on this one. My 2 cents is that: First one needs to determine their purpose and the minimum required to fill the bill. Next set a maximum best case and minimum acceptable case, see what is out there and ask a lot of questions about former use, tooling with the lathe, how it is working presently, why the owner is parting with it, can you test it yourself, work tolerances it will hold currently and so forth. Consider the cost of shipping, set up, and adding tooling. Check it out and decide. Being a former tool and die/CNC operator, I go for all the bells and whistles. In reality I settled for an Atlas 6 inch with most of the tooling made for it because it was what I could afford and it would do a lot of the small jobs I need done right now. Lots of people are retiring and companies are selling off old and or unused equipment to get a cash flow so there are a lot of bargains -- but there are also a lot of money pits out there. I hope that this helps even a little bit. Good luck and let us know how it pans out. CFS ------- Re: Struggling with Decision= Need Thinking Help Posted by: "n8as1x~xxaol.com" docn8as Date: Sun Dec 20, 2009 2:44 pm ((PST)) i did some chatter tests (speeds taking a cut with a wide pointed toolbit) of a 10 wards logan VS late model craftsman 12x36 (1/2 inch thick ways).....essentially no difference & the craftsman spindle was one inch higher than the logan ......also bare logan 10 inch isn't anywhere near 800lbs....it may be 50% + heavier than craftsman....for me the craftsman 12 is more user friendly .... i don't consider a logan 10 to be an upgrade...., a sheldon is, also colchester .... but ok condition wud not suit me....if you have a contract to drum out 50 thou parts, fine, but i want the pleasure of just looking at a lathe in excellent shape for my home shop. best wishes docn8as ------- Re: Struggling with Decision= Need Thinking Help Posted by: "ahz" ahzx~xxinsightbb.com Date: Tue Dec 22, 2009 4:29 pm ((PST)) > What lathe(s) *would* be considered the NEXT step up > from the Atlas 10/12. I feel that the Colchester, Sheldon > etal are several steps up and represent a more industrial > machine, than a hobby machine. Thanks for you input. lance The idea of a 'hobby lathe' versus an industrial lathe is fairly new. A 'next step' would be a 10 or 12" lathe that weighs 500 lbs or more. Generally, mass relates to quality. There are new Chicoms in the 12" range that would certainly be a step up. Check the Grizzly site for lathes in the $2,000 to $2,500 range. Any of the brand names old iron (South Bend, etc) that are 10" or more would be worth considering depending on the wear and your desire to repair versus make chips. Remember, you can fix what's broke, but wear is tough to fix. To get the good old iron you have to be vigilant, ready to roll, knowledgeable, and have cash-in-hand. ------- Re: Struggling with Decision= Need Thinking Help Posted by: "Russ Kepler" russx~xxkepler-eng.com Date: Tue Dec 22, 2009 6:17 pm ((PST)) Wear isn't tough to fix but does require some specialized knowledge. But when you have to fix it you find that fixing an expensive lathe costs about as much as fixing an inexpensive lathe - same time and materials, for the most part. ------- Re: Struggling with Decision= Need Thinking Help Posted by: "n8as1x~xxaol.com" docn8as Date: Tue Dec 22, 2009 8:25 pm ((PST)) condition, price & tooling are the definitive factors for me......& yes sheldon & clausing were designed more for industry .......if you do not need more capacity, a sheldon 10, 11 or 12 is an excellent step up ...problem is since they were designed for industry, finding one that is not 3/4 wore out is a problem ....the heavy south bend 10 in ( not the light 3/4 spindle hole one ) certainly is a step up, but the same difficulty finding one not worn out PLUS there is a premium simply cause south bend is better known ...almost every high school shop course 50 yrs ago had south bends... seredipity played a part when i went to a farm auction to bid on a mill which turned out to be junk ......i brought home an 1895 Reed 14 in, a wards logan 10 x24, & a craftsman 12 X24 of same era as the logan ....the 14 in Reed x~xx 1700# turned out to have lots of accurate life remaining, had a very early type taper attachment & is the lathe i go to when i need more than my 12x36 crftsmn provides......i tooled up & played w/ the other 2 for a couple years, saw no advantage of either & sold them both .....couple years later on ebay, i bought a monarch A 14x36 circa 1918..it spent its life repairing shoe machinery in mass.......my son looked it over & i bought it sight unseen....the seller, bless him, cleaned out his basement & threw a lot of stuff in w/ the lathe, which when sold just about paid for the lathe ...( he was moving out of state..)...he also helped my son move it using his truck to take it 10 mi to next town till i finally got it to Kentucky 5 months later......FWIW ...just to see what it wud do, i took a 2 inch bar down to one inch in one cut ..... But even w/ a 2000# machine if you take a .050 doc & need .010 more for a finish cut, you better not just put .010 on. there is STILL enough built in spring that your part will be undersize.....just that there is less than on lighter machines like cfrtsmn. 12x36 ........if you need this size & are careful, these old machines are "cheap", but you need gears, chucks, steady rest, & tooling. ( plan on replacing the 3 jaw ..it will be be badly worn )......these "older" machines have very wide beds & carriage lengths of 22 +/-in. so the beds dont wear out like smaller machines......most work is near the chuck, but that carriage covers 22 in so the first almost 2 feet have about the same wear.....but in general, the spindle hole is smaller than later machines ( monarch A is 1 1/4....Reed is barely 3/4....... your needs & preferences may be quite different ........if you want to stay w/ smaller machines, i wud look for sheldon ....IIRC the cica 1950 sheldon 12 weighs circa 1100#...but even one model of 10 inch had a large spindle thru hole...i still prefer doing barrel work between centers.....hope this may be of SOME help ..... best wishes docn8as ------- Re: Taig vs.Sherline [sherline group] Posted by: "n2562001" jlkiefferx~xxcharter.net n2562001 Date: Sun Dec 27, 2009 1:38 pm ((PST)) "Lewis hein" wrote: > I'm wondering how does the taig lathe compare to the sherline? Lewis: I have three Taig lathes and Two Sherline Lathes. Two of the Taigs may not count since they are older collector type items. Both Lathes are of equal quality but are very different by design and company philosophy. Why do I seldom use my Taig Lathes in favor of the Sherlines??? #1 The Motor system. The Taig factory change the belt motor system is a REAL PAIN. I have changed mine over to a treadmill variable speed, but it still is not in the same league as the Sherline DC variable for smooth controllable operation. And of course the treadmill motor has no factory support. #2 Axis control. The Taig's uncalibrated rack carriage is a poor design on a small lathe. It lacks accurate and consistent control of the carriage. In addition the uncalibrated lever tailstock also lacks accurate control. The short mounting surface on the tailstock is not repeatable on the wide bed when moved and locked in place. The threaded ram also limits tailstock accessory options. On the other hand the Sherline comes with calibrated leadscrew control of all three axis and a MT ram mounting. Its wide mounting surface has absolute repeatability that works well with the optional ALL DIRECTION alignment accessory. #3 Headstock/spindle. The Taig headstock uses grade one bearings with no preload nut. The aluminum jawed chucks are not good for holding small parts. The odd ball collet system is limited in size range with inconsistent runout. Sherline uses grade three bearings with a preload nut that is critical for micro machining. Personally I have found the Steel jawed Sherline chucks are superior across the board for holding all types of stock including wood. The Tapered MT spindle allows for two collet options. MT collets and standard WW collets. Taig offers a WW spindle but then you are stuck with a small spindle hole and only that collet. #4 Rotating Headstock. Not offered by Taig. While I do not use this option that often, it is indispensable when needed. #5 Threading Attachment. Not offered from the factory by Taig. Aftermarket options appear clumsy and have very limited thread pitches. Sherline's threading system is superb. It has over a 100 thread pitches in both inch and metric. The wide range gives the ability to cut things like worm gear worms and spirals etc. etc. In addition the ability to rotate the head allows for taper threads for things like scale pipe threads and unavailable scale wood screws etc. It can be operated by hand or under power. #6 Accessories. Taig offers a reasonable number of accessories but not a full line. They are reasonable in price but designed for basic machining operations. They are also properly scaled for small machines and the type of work done on these machines. Sherline has a COMPLETE line of accessories. They are properly designed and scaled for the job. For the most part they are highly refined and most are capable of more applications than they were designed for. Especially micro machining. They are however a little more expensive than Taig accessories. In summary, I am personally into doing projects and life is short. Under these conditions Accessories are your life blood. Every time I go to do anything on my Taig Lathes other than basic procedures, I find myself trying to figure out how to modify it or make an accessory. IF a Lathe were my project it would be a Taig. For the reasons above, Sherline equipment allows me to concentrate on my project and not my equipment. Jerry Kieffer ------- NOTE TO FILE: The inquirer who started this last thread in the Yahoo sherline group then asked for comparisons in the taigtools group. Of course some opposing opinions resulted including some praise from Jerry Kieffer (who is also in the taigtools group) for certain advantages of the Taig. ------- Re: Taig vs. sherline [taigtools group] Posted by: "Dean" deanofidx~xxyahoo.com Date: Tue Dec 29, 2009 11:53 pm ((PST)) The Sherline is fairly rigid. From my experience, I'm going to say the Taig is a better built and more rigid lathe. I've cut stuff on my Taig that the Sherline won't easily do. Still, they are very similar. I never had trouble with the performance of the "plastic" gibs. They are not really plastic, but some kind of fiber composite. The only problem I had was they were easy to get a little too tight, and then hard to get back out. The leadscrew on the Sherline is one of the down points, as far as I'm concerned, especially if you have one of the longer bed lathes. It takes 200 turns of the leadscrew to get it from one end of the bed to the other, and there is no other way to move the carriage. After a little while of cranking on that little dial, the quick Taig rack and pinion really starts looking good. Sherline and Taig are both tops when it comes to customer service. As I remember, the cross slide can be locked, yes. Dean ------- Re: Taig vs. sherline [taigtools group] Posted by: "Dean" deanofidx~xxyahoo.com Date: Wed Dec 30, 2009 12:05 am ((PST)) In taigtoolsx~xxyahoogroups.com, Martin Dobbins wrote: > An additional couple of things are that the tailstock barrel will pass completely over the crosslide on a Sherline (not on a Taig) which means you can turn long pieces with tailstock support or between centers and machine the whole length of the piece without adjusting the tool-you cannot do that on a Taig. < You can. You just have to pull the pin on the tailstock lever and let the ram go farther into the tail stock, then tighten it down. > The Sherline tailstock is more accurate when it comes to drilling small (less than 1/32") holes, something a Taig is not capable of without breaking drill bits. Martin < I don't know what this last part comes from. I can drill 1/32" holes all day long with the Taig tail stock without breaking them, and get it done faster than the Sherline can, for sure. Maybe I'm misunderstanding your statement. Dean ------- Re: Taig vs. sherline [taigtools group] Posted by: "Stan Stocker" skstockerx~xxcomcast.net Date: Wed Dec 30, 2009 5:21 am ((PST)) I've used both makers lathes a fair bit, own two Taig lathes and a Sherline mill. Sherline does have a leadscrew and thread cutting abilities, but thread cutting is a hand cranked operation. Jerry Kieffer had a great article in HSM about extending the threading capabilities of the Sherline to cut some very fine threads (320TPI or finer IIRC). As for the tailstock issue, I'm not sure if you got a dog, a worn unit, or lucked out with the Sherline, but I've never noticed the tailstock to be limited on one lathe more than another as far as alignment. Very few lathes can do a #80 or finer bit without using a collet holding tailstock adapter, very few chucks are better than around 1.5 thou. Sherline in fact makes an adapter for their tailstock explicitly for allowing the chuck to float a tiny amount for alignment, and to then be locked in place. More than one person has written articles about improving the accuracy of the Sherline tailstock as the original versions at least had NO alignment provisions. Taig at least has front to back offset. There is a reason I have 8mm jewelers lathes around here as well as Taigs and South Bends. Itsy bitsy holes are one of the reasons. If you have to handle tiny holes you cross into an area where most all general purpose machines and methods just don't work perfectly in all cases. I'm a bit concerned about the original series of questions and the follow on, it seems the original poster is seeking to write an article comparing the two machines without having both machines side by side and doing the same operations. I like both machines. I own both makers products. I would like to add a Sherline lathe, although I own two Taigs. I have NO intention of selling either Taig. They both can do good work. Pick one, learn to use it, and get on with life. You'll find things that make you glad you have the lathe you do, and you'll have tasks that will make you wish you had the other one. Such is life. Cheers, Stan ------- Re: Taig vs. sherline [taigtools group] Posted by: "n2562001" jlkiefferx~xxcharter.net Date: Wed Dec 30, 2009 8:55 am ((PST)) In taigtoolsx~xxyahoogroups.com, Stan Stocker wrote: > I'm a bit concerned about the original series of questions and the > follow on, it seems the original poster is seeking to write an article > comparing the two machines without having both machines side by side and > doing the same operations. Stan: I would certainly agree with your statement. I do not see how an accurate and objective article could be written without side by side comparision by a skilled operator. In addition the operator would have to have an in depth understanding of the strengths/weaknesses of each machine. In the real world, Machine tools should not be selected by comparision of a few basic operations, but by matching machine capabilities to a particular individual's requirements with a open mind. I will give an example for each machine. When I demonstrate Sherline capabilities in seminars or class room, I normally do the following demo. A 3/4" piece of steel is placed in the three Jaw chuck. It is then machined down to to a pivot of .010" in diameter and either .050" or .075" long in about 5-6 passes. From that point, a .005" hole is drilled in the end of the pivot. This is done from start to finish in about 90 seconds. This demo highlights the strength of the Sherline lathe. It would not be practical on a stock Taig for the following reasons. First, I could not adjust the speed of the heavy cuts under load to eliminate chatter. Second, the carriage rack control makes depth and finish on a .010" pivot very difficult. Third, the repeatability, mounting accuracy and lever control of the Tailstock will make drilling a small hole of this size impractical. Of course none of this is an issue for the general machining that the Taig lathe was designed for. Having said that, awhile back I was asked to make a movement display crystal for a very expensive and old historical pocket watch. Normally not an issue except this one had a little twist. It had a raised center jewel setting that extended up through a hole in the center of the crystal. On top of that, the hole in the crystal had to be an exact fit and polished to highlight the fancy setting. (Or it would look like crap.) The Customer said he had been unable to find anyone to do the job to his satisfaction. Had I limited myself to a Sherline lathe, this expensive part would have been a nightmare. However on my Taig Lathe it was a snap. First, I machined the Aluminum jaws (Not available on the Sherline) to hold and protect the glass crystal. Second, the lever operated ram offers the feel and type of control needed for the way that I accurately drill holes in glass. (I use a flat carbide surface and feed lapping compound under it.) Once the slightly undersized hole was drilled, I was now able to polish to exact diameter and shape as follows. I placed a round nosed carbide lap in the tailstock. Next I was able to ever so slightly move the mounted lap away from center and open/polish the hole to the exact diameter much like boring a hole. (This is not possible on the stock Sherline tailstock.) The final polish was done in the same manner with a wood lap and very fine compound at the highest speed. (Higher than a stock Sherline.) Personally for the type of work that I do, I seldom use my Taig Lathe. However when I need it, I really need it. I suspect in most cases you will be far better off if you just own both machines and use the one best suited for the work you are doing at the time. Jerry Kieffer ------- Re: Taig vs. sherline [taigtools group] Posted by: "Martin Dobbins" trainnutzx~xxyahoo.com Date: Wed Dec 30, 2009 10:18 am ((PST)) Yes sir, I know you can by pulling the pin on the lever but that leaves an awful long length hanging out in the breeze with attendant potential inaccuracy problems; the issue here is not the tailstock but the dimension of the Taig crosslide front to back which is much greater than on the Sherline. I did say UNDER 1/32" holes, maybe I should have been a little more specific, let's say nothing larger than #76. I'm not knocking the Taig lathe it's a great machine made in the USA, there are some things the Sherline lathe is better at and some things the Taig lathe is better at -- Jerry K's post clarifies that issue. Martin ------- Re: Taig vs. sherline [taigtools group] Posted by: "Nicholas Carter and Felice Luftschein" felicex~xxcasco.net Date: Wed Dec 30, 2009 10:34 am ((PST)) Most of the increased accuracy when drilling small holes on the Sherline comes down to this clever accessory: http://www.sherline.com/1202pg.htm It allows the drill chuck to be adjusted not only side to side (as can be done with the Taig tailstock) but up and down as well. That eliminates all but angular error (both side to side and up and down). I'm not sure which tailstock is aligned inline better? That is, has its axis parallel to the headstock axis. I've drilled extremely small holes (at least #80) on the Taig but any misalignment means the drill will make a tapered hole. This shows up less on a thin plate being drilled than a deeper hole. I keep meaning to make a chuck mount like that Sherline one (and it could certainly be adapted to the Taig); it would be a wonderful way to ensure accuracy with tiny holes on the Taig. This type of adjustable chuck mount is used often in turret lathes. See our homepage at www.cartertools.com/nfhome.html ------- Re: Taig vs. sherline [taigtools group] Posted by: "David Robertson" davidr415x~xxgmail.com Date: Wed Dec 30, 2009 12:07 pm ((PST)) Holes this small can also be drilled very effectively holding the drill bit in a pin vise by hand. This is how many of us clock/watch guys do it. David ------- Re: Taig vs. sherline [taigtools group] Posted by: "Dean" deanofidx~xxyahoo.com Date: Wed Dec 30, 2009 6:47 pm ((PST)) I often do these small holes similar to how David explains, too. Let the pin vise "float" in the drill chuck, and run it into the work with finger pressure. Like this: http://www.deansphotographica.com/machining/engines/rudyhoriz/238.jpg I still don't know what the other poster means concerning not being able to drill small holes with the Taig tailstock. Even under .032". I've owned both machines. They both do small holes from the tailstock just fine. Dean ------- Re: Taig vs. sherline [taigtools group] Posted by: "n2562001" jlkiefferx~xxcharter.net Date: Wed Dec 30, 2009 9:29 pm ((PST)) Dean: I suspect your comments are in reference to my post. I do not dispute that a .032" hole can be drilled using a pin vise as set up in your photo. And even smaller. However if the hole is critical for a particular purpose, then it becomes an issue. Especially if the hole must be centered, straight and without taper. The quality of a hand held drilling will be more about luck than procedure. Personally I have never been able to drill a quality hole on a consistent basis using this method. I have yet to see a demonstration to the contrary. I eagerly await one that will pass a quality gage pin test. An accurately centered hole must be spot drilled and the drill must be held in perfect alignment to the spindle rotation. Any misalignment will result in a tapered hole as mentioned by Nick. In addition as you go down from about .020", depth of cut must be controlled to decrease drill breakage. If the drill is allowed to grab the metal and pull itself into the material before your fingers can react, it will snap off in many cases. The most effective method of controlling this will be with a leadscrew type ram. This way the drill can only be pulled into the stock if the operator of the handwheel allows it. In my personal opinion this is the only practical way of working on a valuable part that absolutely cannot be damaged by broken drills etc. As small holes go, .032" is not small. As you go smaller the pin vise method becomes less and less practical just to drill a hole. The example of drilling a .005" hole in a .010" pivot from the original post, would need to be attempted to be understood. I am sure some one will ask, why in the heck would you need a small accurate hole. I will give an example from one of my current projects. In building a 1/8th scale wire wheel, I needed to make many spokes and tension nipples. The spokes are .020" and have a 200 TPI scale thread. At 200 TPI, thread depth is less than .001". Any Taper at all in the nipple when drilling for threading, will leave little to no thread. If the hole is even ever so slightly undersized, you will greatly increase threading friction because of the fine thread. This will greatly increase the chance of breaking the Taps you have no desire to remake. In addition the hole MUST be perfectly centered in the nipples. The front of the nipple has square flats for tightening with a wrench. Across the flats is only .005" larger than the diameter of the spoke. Anything less than perfectly centered would destroy the nipple. I will post a Photo of the threaded Spoke end and nipple under my name in the photo section. Procedures are of course a personal preference thing. In this case I can safely say that these parts simply would not exist using a hand pin vise drilling method. I am of course guilty and always will be of promoting the most effective and highest quality options, that I can demonstrate for all to evaluate. Jerry Kieffer ------- Re: Taig vs. sherline Posted by: "David Robertson" davidr415x~xxgmail.com Date: Thu Dec 31, 2009 7:23 am ((PST)) Jerry, While everything you say is true (as usual), not everyone needs to do what you describe. The gentleman who asked the question may or may not need this precision and therefore may or may not need to consider it in making a lathe purchase comparison (if that was even the issue.. I forget..) If this was the guy writing the comparative article, then it is certainly relevant. Pivoting watches and clocks requires a pretty high degree of accuracy/concentricity and this is the method traditionally used.. my point was only that it was an available method that can produce good results.. not that it was perfect. You are correct that it requires learning a skill.. but that is not a bad thing. David ------- Re: Taig vs. sherline Posted by: "James Eckman" ronin_engineerx~xxcomcast.net Date: Thu Dec 31, 2009 8:31 am ((PST)) Both lathes have strengths and weaknesses. If you can afford both, that's the best way to go. Failing that, know the sort of work you are going to do and pick the one most suited. I've been tempted by the Sherline for the threading; I feel using the handcrank for these fine threads is a superior approach. I have made a crank for my Taig for tapping and the use of dies. It doesn't work well with my threading setup. One the other hand, the flat bed of the Taig makes certain freehand turnings easy with what I call a puck. Also useful for some layout tasks. Jim ------- Re: Taig vs. sherline Posted by: "n2562001" jlkiefferx~xxcharter.net Date: Thu Dec 31, 2009 8:58 am ((PST)) David, You bring up some good points. (As usual) I suspect this thread comes from some work examples that I gave in an earlier thread. As mentioned in my last thread, procedures are a personal preference thing. My point was to offer options, and reasons for offering those options for consideration. As you mentioned, if you know that you will absolutely never need to do this type work, then it will of course not need to be a consideration. However the key word in that statement is "Never". My personal perspective is that if you do not equip yourself for "All that you can be" you will never be "All you can be" as they say. Right or wrong, offend or not offend, I will always strongly encourage everyone to develop all of the sound quality procedures they can develop. It just builds confidence and feeds on itself. In regard to Horology, I will have respectfully disagree that pin vise drilling is traditional by those who have a reputation for high quality restorations. These people typically equip themselves for efficient and accurate procedures that limits any kind of damage to expensive original parts. This is a must to retain movement value in many cases. Pin vise drilling has traditionally been used by those who lack collet holding Tailstocks in the common watchmakers lathe. And for whatever reason are unwilling to properly equip themselves with the accessories offered/required for accurate drilling. Many hours are spent in a classroom teaching students procedures to correct poor quality work. Drilling issues are one of the most common concerns by students, many who have been unhappy with pin vise drilling results. One of the interesting things that I have found is that, students tend to master and perform sound quality procedures much faster than unsound procedures. For this reason, I will always be guilty of encouraging a logical, sound and quality procedure over one that can be demonstrated unsound in comparision. Jerry Kieffer ------- Re: Taig vs. sherline Posted by: "timothysvec" TimothySvecx~xxmsn.com Date: Thu Dec 31, 2009 4:39 pm ((PST)) Someone once said, It's not the weapon but the man that's behind it. I think they are both great machines. Practice, knowledge and an open mind will make either choice a rewarding experience. I have a taig and just put the powerfeed on board. Works great with my treadmill motor. Slow and steady. I can't believe I went without for 5 years. ------- [Comparison of Taig lathe and Atlas 618 lathe] Re: Milling Attachment [atlas618lathe] Posted by: "T" tonphil1960x~xxaol.com Date: Tue Jul 20, 2010 2:12 pm ((PDT)) "Dean" deanwx~xxbmi.net wrote: > I've done quite a bit of milling on a lathe. Quite a bit of that > was on a lathe even smaller than the 618, and I've produced a lot > of 'stuff'. Dean, you have both the 618 and the Taig. How much more can the Atlas do, besides the lead screw for threads and the size of course. I might be getting a 618 and other tools cheap, just wondering. That pic of that big piece of steel in the Taig still kills me ! Thanks Tony ------- Re: Milling Attachment Posted by: "Dean" deanwx~xxbmi.net deanofid Date: Tue Jul 20, 2010 6:27 pm ((PDT)) Hi Tony; You know, the 618 is a pretty small lathe, but in a shop that has a Taig, that becomes relative to your own little universe. The Atlas will do quite a bit more work than the Taig. For one thing, it weighs nearly four times as much. It also has a significantly larger spindle, and the bearings are far enough apart to let it take quite a bit larger cuts than the Taig for similar material. I find the Taig a very easy lathe to work with for things in its capacity. It's uncannily rigid and can spin a work piece all day long at 5000+ rpm. I will never be without one. You'll never get the Atlas 618 out of my paws, either. I've put it through its paces, and know what it will do, and know how to make it do those things well. It will remove material at a higher rate than a Taig or Sherline sized lathe, and keep very good tolerances on the fine cuts. The back gear helps it do the harder jobs that would be kind of a chore on the Taig. Then there's threading. I've cut the 1"-8 threads needed to replicate the spindle on the Atlas. You'd have a heck of a time doing that on a Taig, even if you set it up with full threading capability. You can do great work on a Taig. Anything that will fit on it can be done well. When you get past the size it will take, that's it, but that's how it is with any lathe, no matter the size. The Taig is really, really, accurate. The Atlas is accurate, too. You have to keep after it a bit to keep it that way, but it will do fine work. I'd say, it's easier to do accurate work on the Taig than on the Atlas. I've done really close work on the Atlas, though, and it didn't take any supernatural abilities to do it. For instance, the piston and cylinder work done on my latest engine has two pistons running concentric in the same bore. They must be done right. I did them on the Atlas. (Engine runs great.) I'd say, get the one you like best, keeping capacities and your intended projects in mind. Also, remember that all Atlas machines are old, and may need TLC, but they're so cool! Oh, that piece of steel on the Taig that you are talking about. That would have taken about 1/4 the time on the 618. Dean ------- Re: Milling Attachment Posted by: "Mike Nicewonger" twmasterx~xxtwmaster.com Date: Wed Jul 21, 2010 12:10 am ((PDT)) Gosh, why limit your self? Get both! ;-) Mike N ------- Compatibilty between types [myfordlathes] Posted by: "Christopher" chcx~xxjacom.co.uk Date: Tue Dec 28, 2010 2:52 pm ((PST)) I am curious to know to what extent Myford bits fit different lathes. For example will a mk 1 S7 fit onto a ML7 bed and if so what else needs altering? Is it possible to fit a four pulley set to a Mk 1? How much can I upgrade? ------- Re: Compatibilty between types Posted by: "Chapmanadx~xxaol.com" Date: Tue Dec 28, 2010 4:45 pm ((PST)) There is considerable compatibility between S7 and ML7 parts. However, you can't fit S7 headstock parts into an ML7 headstock. But you can swap the entire headstock assembly. A few years ago I bought a long bed to improve my ML7 lathe. I then thought that I might as well fit a S7 tail stock. Then I upgraded the motor. Then I decided to upgrade some of the saddle and cross-slide parts. Then I thought sod it, I might as well replace all of the other parts as well. Now I have a very nice long-bed S7 with a 3-phase motor and electronic controller. Upgrading the parts bit-by-bit was an interesting exercise in compatibility but it was, in the end, pretty pointless. The fact is that the S7 is better than the ML7 in every respect. If you change one part you will soon want to change another, and so on. ------- Re: Compatibilty between types Posted by: "karen_ozau" karengx~xxa1.com.au Date: Wed Dec 29, 2010 2:29 pm ((PST)) I intentionally chose to buy an ML7 rather than a S7 when I was buying new in '76, and stand by that decision. Why? Because the S7 could not take the Tri-Leva attachment, and I know I don't bother to change speeds as often as I should if it's a pain to move belts. With the Tri-Leva it's no work at all other than pulling a lever down. I do, however have *one or two* S7 components on my ML7T, so I'ver reached a compromise I'm happy with. I just need to take care of those white metal bearings! For the higher speed jobs, I have a tiny little Unimat that handles those. Karen ------- How does Atlas 10" compare to 6" and minilathes? [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: "gcrimmins" gcrimminsx~xxyahoo.com Date: Thu Dec 30, 2010 8:21 am ((PST)) Hi, Last year I bought my first metal lathe, a 10" Atlas TH-54. I don't use it a lot, but it's nice to have when I do need it. The problem is I have a small shop, and between the motor/countershaft on the back and the long bed I don't need, that lathe takes up too much space. I'm considering trying to replace it with either another 10" lathe with a shorter bed, an Atlas 6" with a shorter bed, or something like a Grizzly mini lathe. I'm not sure how these lathes compare as far as capability and usability. Any thoughts on this? Geoff ------- Re: How does Atlas 10" compare to 6" and minilathes? Posted by: "Scott Henion" shenionx~xxshdesigns.org Date: Thu Dec 30, 2010 8:38 am ((PST)) The 6" is ok and I'd put it above the Chinese ones as far as durability. Don't confuse the 6" 109 Craftsman as anything like the A/C lathes ;) The Chinese (Grizzly) lathes do not have a back gear or selectable pulley ratios. So they do not have much control or torque at lower speeds. Lots of web sites on these on how to tweak them to get better results. You might look for a shorter 10" bed and lead screw off ebay. I've had two smaller lathes, my current one is 12x36 and a world of difference in rigidity over the small ones. I would like more room, but don't want to give up having the capability and rigidity of a larger lathe. Scott G. Henion Craftsman 12x36 lathe: http://shdesigns.org/Craftsman12x36 ------- Re: How does Atlas 10" compare to 6" and minilathes? Posted by: "Warren D." warrengrantx~xxyahoo.com Date: Thu Dec 30, 2010 2:48 pm ((PST)) Depends on your needs. If you don't need to turn long work then a small one is fine. I got a big one only because my small lathe didn't have auto cross feed. If it had I probably would have just stuck with it as I now have two lathes with one taking up room just like yours. ------- Re: Which lathe to buy [sherline] Posted by: "n2562001" jlkiefferx~xxcharter.net Date: Wed Jan 19, 2011 9:33 am ((PST)) Steve Wan wrote: > Hi all Sherline fans > So much is said of Unimat and Grizzly! What about the precision made > very popular lathe called Toyo or Sakai or now next generation Manix > which Proxxon is cloning this design? The best part of the design is > the lathe bed made of a block beam which I think making flexing almost > impossible. Has anyone owned this lathe which originated from Japan? > Share with us of this wonderful small lathe which is of same quality > level as the Rolls Royce small lathes from UK. Steve-S'pore Steve: Unfortunately over the years, I have personally found opinions and speculation on equipment to be of little to no value. The only thing that really counts, is what can be accomplished on a piece of equipment by one's own hands in an efficient manner. Within a machine's envelope, almost any specific item can be made on any specific machine if you spend enough hours, days, years until you finally get lucky. A quality machine to myself, is one I can walk up to and do what I need to the first time in the least amount of time possible. I also own a Unimat SL, Unimat 3 and a 7x12 Grizzly Mini Lathe. By my hand none of these machines have produced anything of value in a timely or efficient manner. I consider the Unimat 3 to be the worst of the lot because it has all of the issues of the SL but is less versatile. At least on the Grizzly, I can machine a non-critical bushing for the mother-in- law's wheel barrow in a reasonable amount of time if everything happens to be functioning that day. I have never owned a Toyo or Sakai lathe but have worked on both. Both of these machines including the Manix are larger versions of the Unimat 3 design. The Proxxon Lathe is only a slightly larger version of the Unimat 3. An experience that I had at a model engineering show years ago would pretty much sum up my experience in these machines. I happened to be helping out at the Sherline booth doing demo`s on the Sherline Lathe. A few booths down on the same row was the US Sakai dealer at the time. For whatever reason he found the need to machine four or five steps on the end of a piece of aluminum and send it down to the Sherline booth. It of course had a note that said "What do you think of this". So I machined three steps on the stock each deeper than the originals with a better finish. In addition, on the end of the third step I machined a .010" pivot with a .005" hole center drilled in the end of the pivot. Upon return and inspection by the Sakai dealer, he proclaimed that it had nothing to do with the machines and everything to do with machining skill. Nothing could have been further from the truth when in fact the complete opposite was true. The deeper cut and better finish was due to the fact that the Sherline Lathe had a Variable speed motor allowing the adjustment of speed under load. This allowed me to find the speed that produced the better finish without wasting time to change belts and most likely never finding the right speed. The .010" pivot was cut because of the more sensitive cross slide handwheel control of the Sherline. I was able to drill the hole because of three things. Parallel aligment of the tailstock spindle, repeatability of the Tailstock when moved, and sensitivity/ control of the tailstock handwheel. Not the case with the Sakai. The Toyo/Sakai lathes are of course far better quality than the Chinese machines. But they are far from Rolls Royce machines. For example thay are not even in the same league with the Emco C-5 or a Prazi SD300 in my opinion. But then again personally, I am not a big fan of any of the 5"-7" Lathes regardless of quality. They are too large for small parts and NEVER large enough for large parts. The larger parts that can be done on these machines that can`t be done on a sherline, can be done on larger machines much faster and more accurately. All of this assumes of course that the lathe is a general purpose machine and not set up and used for one specific part. Jerry Kieffer ------- Re: Craftsman 109 worth keeping? [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: "Yuriy K" ycrooshx~xxyahoo.com Date: Thu Feb 17, 2011 9:15 am ((PST)) Scott G. Henion wrote: > After having a 109 for over a year, i don't consider them worth their > scrap value. It was my first lathe with power feed and thread cutting so > I did walk away learning the steps to cut threads. Good morning, First of all: "ouch" :) I knew 109 wasn't "top of the line", but it looks like it's pretty bad, actually. Well, at least I learned a lot about how they work, plus the chuck, live center, tailstock drill chuck and all the tools will work on 618. So I have another (even less appropriate quesion): when given a choice between HarborFreight etc. tools and old American-madde tools, I've been opting for american made. (have a 50-year old Craftsman drill press that works like a charm, 30+ years old band saw etc.) Last night I was talking to the guy selling the 618 for $500 (a coworker of mine) and he suggested to get a 8x12 from HF becuase it's much more modern machine etc. and new lathes are universally better than 40 years old stuff. I'm sstill leaning towards 618, since fully tooled for $500 is still better than 699 + shipping for a "project" Is there anything to it? The only thing I might have against 618 is the fact that is has bushings, and in my limited experience with the newer stuff shows that there are many more corners cut. I'd appreciate if anyone with relevan experience could comment. Thank you Yuriy ------- Re: Craftsman 109 worth keeping? Posted by: "Glenn N" sleykinx~xxcharter.net Date: Thu Feb 17, 2011 10:32 am ((PST)) I had a 618 with bushings in the headstock and changed out the headstock for a timken roller bearing headstock. The only real problem with the bushing headstock is that it is very limited on high speeds. It was a nice little machine and I would still be using it if I hadn't fallen into a 12X54 atlas/craftsman for short change ($100). ------- Re: Craftsman 109 worth keeping? Posted by: "Dean" deanwx~xxbmi.net Date: Thu Feb 17, 2011 3:15 pm ((PST)) Nothing wrong with the bushing head stock model. I have one. Lots of people have one. They work great. Many lathes used bushings, and no one who knows would consider it a disadvantage. South Bend even made lathes with no bushings at all. Just a hole through the headstock. It's true, the top speed of the spindle is less for bushing headstocks than for roller headstocks, -sometimes-. About 1600-2000 rpm for the former. How fast do you need to turn? BTW, the Chicom lathe you mentioned has a top speed of 2000 rpm. Dean ------- Re: Craftsman 109 worth keeping? Posted by: "ahz" ahzx~xxinsightbb.com Date: Thu Feb 17, 2011 4:23 pm ((PST)) I have never used a 109. I have never heard anyone say they particularly like it. It's hard to say if new Chicom lathes are better than similar old American lathes. The issue is that condition is everything. A dog of a 618 isn't going to be better than any new lathe. But a Chicom lathe can be a project. (I personally think this is more of a thing of the past.) Also, tooling matters. A fully tooled 618 for $500 is sweet. All else being equal, however, I'd lean towards a new machine. ------- Re: Craftsman 109 worth keeping? Posted by: "xlch58x~xxswbell.net" xlch58x~xxswbell.net Date: Thu Feb 17, 2011 4:27 pm ((PST)) My Browne and Sharpe horizontal mill uses plain bearings. As in the spindle runs in the bare cast iron head casting - no bronze or brass. The tapered spindle journal and casting were scraped and fitted. It will bury you in shavings in no time (nothing beats a horizontal mill in shaving production). Eventually when I run out of adjustment on the journal I will be faced with a moderately difficult repair, though I have not had to adjust it since I went over the machine twenty years ago and I have a lot left. Considering the machine was put into service sometime around 1890, I am guessing it will be somebody else's problem. I found a plain bearing Atlas 10 inch for my neighbor about ten years ago. He was intent on replacing the headstock with timken bearing model. I told him no use replacing it until he wore it out since there is no resale value. I bet him he wouldn't. He didn't - died last year at 80. Anyone running any Atlas should be generous with their praise and scant with their criticism of other machine tools. A lot of people complain about the limits of the tools they have. Others find projects that match the tools they have and develop skills that surpass in the process. That is why I always liked the Gingery approach. At the end of the process you have a "crappy" lathe by many standards, but a real machinist. Here is an interesting story in a similar vein.... http://machineshop.olin.edu/resources/documents/Prison%20Camp%20Lathe.pdf Charles ------- Re: Craftsman 109 worth keeping? Posted by: "Yuriy K" ycrooshx~xxyahoo.com Date: Fri Feb 18, 2011 12:24 am ((PST)) Dean; in that case I should not have any issues. In fact the first project I've done on 109 was to install a countershaft to get low RPM... Thank you everybody for the replies. It looks like I should be OK with 618. The one I was looking at looks lightly used, with no damage on the ways etc. Thank you Yuriy ------- Re: Craftsman 109 worth keeping? Posted by: "jerdalx~xxsbcglobal.net" jtiers Date: Fri Feb 18, 2011 5:46 am ((PST)) I would offer one suggestion. For a similar amount of money, one can often obtain a 10" class machine. You are looking at a 6" for $500, I bought a 10" Logan for $600. The step-up in rigidity and stability is MAJOR, going from an Atlas 6" to a 10" of most any brand. However the ability to do small work is no worse, and of course the ability to do slightly larger work is an advantage. A 10" swing machine is a 'standard" size for small shops, because it is "right sized" for a large amount of work, much of which is just plain out of reach for 6" size machines. I don't know what size work a 10" Atlas actually swings, but a 10" Logan swings almost 11" diameter work, if necessary. That can be the difference between doing the work and not doing it. If you pay about the same, and can get a more capable machine with no sacrifice in ability to do small work, why not? Plus, for work that will fit on either, the size and mass makes the difference between nibbling away at the work with tiny cuts, and taking an actual roughing cut that gets you ready for finishing the part before you run out of shop time for the day. The top of the compound for many 10" machines weighs as much as most of the crosslide of a small machine like the Atlas 6". I think the crosslide of some Atlas 6" versions is actually smaller and lighter than that of the 109. No doubt lots of people will start to howl that their 6" works just fine and does everything they want. It may actually be true, and if so, I am happy for them. I am suggesting that YOU do a solid evaliuation of your real needs and see if a 10" machine is honestly "more than you need". I bought a 109 years ago, and rapidly identified its problems. I ALSO identified the fact that a 6" swing was just plain too small. It wasn't the center distance as much as the swing. An honest evaluation may find the same in your case, and it would be less than helpful to then have to sell the 6" and re-buy a larger machine. JT ------- Re: Craftsman 109 worth keeping? Posted by: "Yuriy K" ycrooshx~xxyahoo.com Date: Fri Feb 18, 2011 8:43 am ((PST)) JT, I've been monitoring Craig's list and classifieds for months now and 10" appear very seldom, command much more than $500 and get sold in a hurry in my area (Oregon). Additionally, my work space is very limited (a corner of one-car garage in an appartment). Although 6" is far from perfect, that is all I can fit in there right now. Once I move into a house with more space a 10" or 12" lathe is definitely something I will invest in. For now most of the work I do is hobby-related or robotics, and even a sherline would fit most of it. The reason I was looking at 6" Craftsman was the "bigger is better" logic, but in the case of 109, that turned out not to be the case. Thank you for the suggestion, though. I totally hear your point, and agree 100%. Unfortunately my situation is forcing me into a compromise I don't like much. Regards Yuriy ------- Re: Craftsman 109 worth keeping? Posted by: "jerdalx~xxsbcglobal.net" jtiers Date: Fri Feb 18, 2011 9:04 pm ((PST)) Yeah, you do what you can. I will mention, though, that my 10" x 24" Logan isn't really "that" much bigger than a larger 6" overall. Including stand, it is about 49" x 24", with the 24" being only at one end, at the drive pulley. The tailstock end is really only 10" deep, although the stand increases that to 16". Some of the later Atlas 6" machines with longer bed will take up a significant portion of that space. JT ------- Re: Craftsman 109 worth keeping? Posted by: "Mike Nicewonger" twmasterx~xxtwmaster.com Date: Fri Feb 18, 2011 9:08 pm ((PST)) Yebbut, I can lift my Atlas 618 off the bench by myself without injury! I did a really dumb move yesterday. I moved the bed and headstock for my Rivett 918 from one table to another by myself. I am paying for that stupidity today. Mike N ------- Re: Craftsman 109 worth keeping? Posted by: "Glenn N" sleykinx~xxcharter.net Date: Fri Feb 18, 2011 10:16 am ((PST)) Yurity, I live in Medford, Oregon and picked up my 12" A/C for $100 and just found one with quick change gearbox for a friend for $200. Neither had any tooling and both needed work but :) My son just picked up a Logan 11" lathe that I really like, for the labor of an engine swap. They are out there, but I also started with a 6" atlas and it is a very usable machine. At $500 in good shape with some goodies I would be happy. If you are close to Medford, stop by and say hi :) Glenn Neff Medford, OR ------- Re: Craftsman 109 worth keeping? Posted by: "Yuriy K" ycrooshx~xxyahoo.com Date: Fri Feb 18, 2011 9:16 pm ((PST)) Glenn, I'm in Portland, but we go to Medford several times every year. Umpqua rivery is my favorite fly fishing spot, wife and the daughter never get tired of camping on Diamond lake and Crater lake isn't too bad for hiking. I am starting to reconsider this whole "I like Portland" thing. Medford is close to most of my favorite outdoor places, and turns out you have the motherlode of good used lathes :) Regards Yuriy ------- Re: Craftsman 109 worth keeping? Posted by: "Richard Marchi" rfmarchix~xxaol.com Date: Sat Feb 19, 2011 6:40 am ((PST)) On the issue of the quality of bushing headstocks and speed limitations, let me remind everyone that a lot of jeweler's lathes (Derbyshire, etc) were made with bronze bushings and turned at 6000 rpm. The journal bearings in the gyros used in sub navigation systems run at 12,000 rpm. So there isn't an inherent speed limitation on journal bearings. It's all a matter of having a properly designed bearing of any type, that is matched to the loads and speeds it's intended to handle. Dick Marchi ------- Re: Miniature lathes [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: "Michael Fagan" woodworker88x~xxgmail.com Date: Thu Mar 24, 2011 8:16 pm ((PDT)) > Have I totally lost it or would it really be "cool" to have one of > these in my collection of lathes? Watchmakers lathes can be quite useful if you do a lot of work with extremely small components. They are easy to store and move, and can hold very tight tolerances when used carefully. ------- Re: Miniature lathes Posted by: "Mike Nicewonger" twmasterx~xxtwmaster.com Date: Thu Mar 24, 2011 8:25 pm ((PDT)) Or you can get a Taig or Sherline micro lathe and have access to a full line of parts and accessories. Mike N ------- Re: Miniature lathes Posted by: "Scott Henion" shenionx~xxshdesigns.org Date: Thu Mar 24, 2011 8:38 pm ((PDT)) My first lathe was a Sherline 4000 (Craftsman rebranded.) Was a nice lathe after I added a proper speed control. I considered it tiny. I nearly destroyed it trying to turn piece of 1.375" stainless. The one you linked looked to be half the size. Would be for real tiny stuff. If you need to do some real small parts, then it might be useful. The Sherline was ok, but by the time I added a chuck to the tail to center bore, there was hardly room for a drill bit. Really for parts less than 1" in any direction. Scott G. Henion Craftsman 12x36 lathe: http://shdesigns.org/Craftsman12x36 ------- Re: Miniature lathes Posted by: "wheezer" wheezer606x~xxverizon.net Date: Thu Mar 24, 2011 9:05 pm ((PDT)) This is a very small watchmakers lathe. They usually worked with brass and VERY small parts. There are no collets shown and the lathe would be difficult to use without them. Chucks are heavy and tend to not be accurate enough. This unit would need a restore and Waltham parts are not available. I have looked. Waltham lathes are rare and collectable if complete, but this would be a dark hole into which you drop money. If you want a Waltham lathe with collets and a chuck, and in better shape than this, but larger..I have one for sale. I also have a Bausch and Lomb optical bench lathe for sale. Much like the watchmaker's lathe in construction but with a lever feed tail stock and a flip-over tool rest. lance ------- Re: Miniature lathes Posted by: "Russ Kepler" russx~xxkepler-eng.com Date: Thu Mar 24, 2011 9:17 pm ((PDT)) The downside of a jeweler's lathe is that most don't have a 'real' carriage with cross slide, compound, etc. But with skill and practice very good work can be done. A friend has a pretty well kitted out Levin lathe - a couple of carriages (one regular, the other for turret use), turret, drilling attachments, milling hardware, microscope, etc. Way cool, but about $25K total. Too rich for my blood. ------- Re: Miniature lathes Posted by: "Jon Elson" elsonx~xxpico-systems.com Date: Thu Mar 24, 2011 9:56 pm ((PDT)) I had a Boley watchmaker's lathe first. Yes, it was cute. I can see how a number of watch parts could be made on it, but I wasn't making watch parts. It was a TOTAL pain to do anything larger on. Jon ------- Re: Miniature lathes Posted by: "Glenn N" sleykinx~xxcharter.net Date: Thu Mar 24, 2011 11:21 pm ((PDT)) Unless you have a set of collets for it I would pass. I have one very similar to that one and use it mostly as a miniture grinding wheel with a small diamond wheel. Cute to look at but not very useful anymore. ------- Re: Miniature lathes Posted by: "jerdalx~xxsbcglobal.net" jtiers Date: Fri Mar 25, 2011 5:44 am ((PDT)) The jeweler's lathe is a good adjunct to a larger machine, IF you need to make small parts. Watchmakers didn't use collets for perhaps 150 years or more. Instead, they used "wax", holding the work with a tubular holder filled with a wax-like compound made of sealing wax, resin, and often tar. A pain, probably, but then they were not working fast in production. The "collet" came in only in the 1800's. With the wax, a part could be centered "perfectly", while with collets, you can center only as well as the collet accuracy. Depending on what collets it takes, they may be easy to find. Many take 8mm "WW" collets, which are not hard to locate, and come in increments of 0.1mm for work size. I got a Boley with a considerable lot of tooling for $25, including motor, base, a large number of collets, and quite a bit of watch and clock maker's tools. Yes, there are folks who believe they have a very valuable antique, and want hundreds, or thousands for it, but they are merely deluded. However, most watch lathes will only swing about 3", and are only suited to small work. Watchmakers would commonly make items with only 10 thou diameter, so they are a useful machine for tiny work. The largest thing you would ever want to work on with a jeweler's or watchmaker's lathe is a watch case. To go with the lathe you want some sort of magnifying device. A "loupe", which is a type of monocular magnifier often held between eyebrow and cheek like a monocle is the traditional item, but a more practical item is a binocular microscope. With 40 power or so, that 10 thou "pivot" (bearing area on a watch gear shaft) looks like a car axle. You can't work on what you can't see clearly. To start with, a big magnifier lens can get you going..... You will also need "gravers", the cutting tools, which very much resemble tiny versions of wood lathe tools, and are held the same way on a "bar type" rest. Some machines have a "slide rest" with cross-slide and compound type parts. JT ------- Re: Miniature lathes Posted by: "Dan Buchanan" db45acpx~xxyahoo.com Date: Fri Mar 25, 2011 6:42 am ((PDT)) I was just thinking about the "cool factor". Clean it all up for a special place on a shelf. It would look great all polished up. A great mini-reference to my larger lathes. For what it is likely to sell for, I won't be in the fray of bidders, I'm sure. Dan ------- Re: Miniature lathes Posted by: "Ron Gerlach" r7734gx~xxhotmail.com Date: Fri Mar 25, 2011 8:31 am ((PDT)) Dan: With that reasoning, I'd say go for it. It is a machine, it just happens to be small and what guy doesn't another machine to play with once and a while. Once you have it you can clean it up, use it once and a while and even lurk around on Ebay looking for collets or attachments that might be handy. I picked a Boley last year for the same reason. I haven't set it up and used it yet but I will some day soon and if I use it a couple times a year, well it served its purpose. One word of caution about the head stock spindle bushings: they are often trashed and that will make the machine close to useless unless you figure a way to repair it or find another parts lathe with a good spindle. RonG ------- Re: Miniature lathes Posted by: "Dan Buchanan" db45acpx~xxyahoo.com Date: Fri Mar 25, 2011 9:12 am ((PDT)) Thanks, Ron. I like the way you think. My pleas for help were because my wife thinks just the opposite. Her reasoning is that 11 lathes is too many as it is. One more, whatever size and however unique, is over the top and she doesn't appreciate the "cool" factor. My last hope is that it won't take up much room..... But I don't think that'll fly either...... Best regards, Dan ------- Re: Miniature lathes Posted by: "Russ Kepler" russx~xxkepler-eng.com Date: Fri Mar 25, 2011 9:54 am ((PDT)) On Friday 25 March 2011 10:34:12 wmackeyx~xxcomcast.net wrote: > My last line of defense is either "Oh, that's been here for years" or > "Would you prefer I was out at a bar instead". What you need to do is to support your SO in their activity. That way they have less ammo. When my wife asks (rarely) about something new in the shop I can trot out your last line of defense - or suggest that we wander the house while counting her things. (I was once in front of my and my (then) 6 year old daughter pointed to a on the shelf and asked when I'd gotten it. I said "oh, that's an old " and her reply was "it might be old but it's new to you!" - and it was. I then felt a little bit sorry for her future husband.) ------- Re: Miniature lathes Posted by: "Dave" drakers007x~xxyahoo.com Date: Fri Mar 25, 2011 5:32 pm ((PDT)) Dan and all: You've peaked my interest with this topic. I have to admit these miniature watchmaker machines are my current compulsion. I've restored a number of them and have 3 that I'm keeping; a 4mm, 6mm and 8mm (Hopkins, American Watch Tool Co and Boley respectively) as soon as I finish the beauty contest in my workshop I plan to sell the remainder to cover the investment. The prices on eBay can get crazy so be patient if that's the route you take. I've had decent luck by trolling for mis-identified, mis-categorized items in my searches. If you watch Craigslist / garage / estate sales you may luck out and get a machine with some tooling. The availability of tooling plays out like this: 8mm collet sets are more common than the 6 mm collets and 4 mm collets are few and far between. Last weekend I drove up to LA to pick up a old Watchmakers Workbench that was posted on the "Craigslist Furniture" Section. It just so happened to have the 4mm lathe mounted to it with a full set of collets -- not advertised and it was part of the deal! If you are only going have one mini lathe in your workshop then the Sherline is a good option and is beefier than the Watchmaker Lathes discussed on this thread... again watch CL or local garage sales as the retail price is nutz and there are deals out the for under $100 from time to time. I have a little Sherline 4000 and it does fine by me (TAIG is in the same realm). Since I like restoring and collecting gizmos and am planning on exploring clocks and watches as part of my future old geezer plans, then these are right up my alley. For Old School Cool they're going to be right at home with the Atlas th54, ShopSmiths, 10e's, various other Rube Goldberg belt driven contraptions. Most of the Watchmakers Lathes clean up real nice, with some Mothers Mag Wheel polish and elbow grease the results are good. If any one has some cool project plans to build on the Atlas for this lil' machines or the other way around let us know. Now for the Dave's spiritual guidance... 1. We just have to remind our wives that we are Trophy Husbands and not just eye candy. 2. Being frugal does not mean we're cheap. 3. Self funding hobbies are a good thing. So have a great weekend, enjoy your friends and family, and if you sneak out to the workshop/garage/man-cave relax and unwind. Dave San Diego ------- newly aquired 109 21270 [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: "recycalem" grandmasterjx~xxearthlink.net Date: Thu Sep 8, 2011 7:22 pm ((PDT)) Hi, just picked up a clean 109 21270 with change gears. looks to have been hardly used. Circa 1949. Did they make these in a gold color, and is there a milling attachment or rests for these. ------- Re: newly aquired 109 21270 Posted by: "jerdalx~xxsbcglobal.net" Date: Thu Sep 8, 2011 7:44 pm ((PDT)) No rests, no milling attachment. Not factory, anyhow. If you insist on using that thing (and you may regret it) a follow rest is a super idea as a project. It keeps down chatter, and tends to prevent bending the spindle, which is extremely easy to do on them. A milling attachment would be a disaster... the spindle is no way strong enough to cope with milling, do NOT try it, you won't like the results, even if you don't bend the spindle in the process. There is a group for those on Yahoo, I don't have the link. I used to have a 109... made a block toolpost, made a follow rest, made it a calibrated feed dial, but with 24 tpi scrws, it was 0.041666666... inches per turn, not a handy number. Got rid of it quickly thereafter. It was a 109.20630, arguably one of the better types, but..... My advice is use it to learn. When you can do good work with it, get a biggger machine in the 9" or 10" class, and move it onwards. They are a good education, they do absolutely every bad thing that lathes are commonly capable of doing, and if you can deal with them, you can deal with most anything. A hint..... bag the chucks.... do anything and everything between centers if in any way possible. Safer for the machine that way. JT ------- Re: newly aquired 109 21270 Posted by: "recycalem" grandmasterjx~xxearthlink.net Date: Thu Sep 8, 2011 9:27 pm ((PDT)) HI, Thanks for your info, I have a 12" w/QC ,10" atlas and a 6" craftsman and a bridgeport W/DRO. I have a jacobs chuck, face plate, dog, and one dead center for it. I guess I need another dead center. I just thought these small lathes would be fun to work with. But is gold a proper color for them? Thanks Jim ------- Re: newly aquired 109 21270 Posted by: "Scott Henion" shenionx~xxshdesigns.org Date: Thu Sep 8, 2011 9:48 pm ((PDT)) My 109.20630 was gray. I do think gold was used for some years. I have pages on mine: http://shdesigns.org/Lathe/index.shtml Having better lathes, you will quickly get fed up with the 109. With a 1/2" spindle, small carriage and weak bed it is just too flexible to be much use. That being said, they can be improved some. I added brass gibbs, a QCTP and a sherline cross slide (milling slide). HomeShopSupply.com has parts and upgrades. I ordered bearings and the improved tailstock RAM that allows a 1/2-20 chuck to thread on with no arbor. I consider it to be one of the worst lathes ever made. After a year of fiddling, modifications and frustration I managed to get it to do very light work half the time. I never was able to do any accurate work on it as it seemed to keep changing and chatter was a constant problem. I was so glad to get rid of mine when I got my A/C 12x36. Scott G. Henion Craftsman 12x36 lathe http://shdesigns.org/Craftsman12x36 ------- Re: newly aquired 109 21270 Posted by: "rburkheimer" burkheimerx~xxgmail.com Date: Fri Sep 9, 2011 6:30 am ((PDT)) Jim, don't let anyone discourage you from tinkering with that old 109. I have 3 of them, as well as 7 other, bigger lathes that I do actual turning on. For me the 109s are neat little restoration projects. The finished units sit on the shelves in my library. I consider them antique scale models. I've never made a chip on them, but I enjoyed the restoration process. And yes, quite a few of the 21270s were originally gold. Also, the last version of the 109 was gold. It may be that all the later production came in gold. I think the old Oldsmobile Gold engine paint is a pretty close match, if you can find that. ------- [Subject is actually about using, tolerating, a 109 lathe] Re: I need help and advice concerning the split nuts [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: "Michael" michael_lapointe_2000x~xxyahoo.com Date: Sat Sep 10, 2011 12:03 pm ((PDT)) After my first experience with the 109 I learned a lot about getting ripped off and lousy lathes. But I also learned a lot about the lathe period. I did a lot of research and I am very pleased with the new one. I wouldn't sell it. I could part it out and make a lot more money, and as is it is worth over 400. I see broken lathes of this type on ebay for far more money, but thank you for the offer. I have a purpose for the lathe and that is to make model train parts and other small machine items that can only be done using the lathe. So going through the teething problems and finding solutions is part of the learning process. I know who origianlly purchased the lathe and he rarely used it for anything but he gave it to his son in law and I believe he is the one that abused it. Hence it being stored in the trunk of an old car for years. The tail stock on this lathe is true and in great shape. It is a nice running lathe and the ways are true as well. The only problem I have with it was the split nuts. The change gears on my 109 fit the 101 so I am set up there as well. The tool post is a quick change tool post I made. It works very well..even though I am going to make another one when time permits. The lathe is functional if I choose to slowly advnace it by the handwheel. I have been around aircraft and heavy machinery most of my life... 24 years airforce. That does not make me a lathe expert but I have basic understanding of machinery and I am mechanicaly inclined lol. I take the repairs to this lathe as a challenge I intend to overcome ....but that is why I have come to this site to ask the experts. ------- Re: I need help and advice concerning the split nuts Posted by: "BRIAN GLACKIN" glackin.brianx~xxgmail.com Date: Sat Sep 10, 2011 1:24 pm ((PDT)) Since you are going to stick it out, there is a 109 lathe group on Yahoo which focuses soley on this much maligned and potentially underappreciated lathe (for tinkering and small work). ------- Re: I need help and advice concerning the split nuts Posted by: "Michael" michael_lapointe_2000x~xxyahoo.com Date: Sat Sep 10, 2011 2:40 pm ((PDT)) Yes when I first received my 109 lathe from ebay I was excited. But soon found out the spindle was bent..missing parts and hand cranks etc., and the tab on the adjusting screw for the tail stock was broken off. This is the lathe I did most of my research on and joined the 109 club. The guys there where great also. So when I accidentally came across the 101.21200 I was even more excited with plans to build a new spindle for the 109. I too like the 109 and plan on using it as mch as the 101. I did not mean to sound as if I was downing the 109....once I get it finished and follow all the suggestions on the club I know it will work perfectly for turnng a lot of the smaller parts. ------- Re: I need help and advice concerning the split nuts Posted by: "Scott Henion" shenionx~xxshdesigns.org Date: Sat Sep 10, 2011 2:58 pm ((PDT)) The 109's are famous for bent spindles and "carriage walk". You can remedy some of the spindle bend by turning the face on the spindle. Helped on mine. Yes, the first project on my A/C 12" was turning a new spindle for my 109: http://shdesigns.org/Craftsman-12x36/spindle.shtml Came out ok but I should have left a register for the chuck. I made it out of tool steel. I did not bother with a Morse taper, just drilled a hole to match a straight center I had (8mm IIRC). Only drilled part way through. The 4-jaw chuck was useless as it was worn. I picked up a Chinese but good 4" 3-jaw. I added a Sherline cross slide, that gave me a graduated dial. Did the hacksaw trick on the carriage, new brass gibbs. I added a countershaft, new bearings and an improved tailstock ram from homeshopsupply. Still it was sloppy to use. It was not worth the money I put into it. It would do ok on brass or aluminum. I fought chatter. Later I realized a better base than just a sheet of 3/4 ply would have helped. Because of the spindle, you almost always have to use a dead center. I have pages on it here: http://shdesigns.org/Lathe/index.shtml I learned from it but I still consider it a wasted year of fiddling. The Craftsman 101 should do much better and is worth putting time into. I think someone cast the half nuts using the lead screw; similar to pouring babbit bearings. Scott G. Henion Craftsman 12x36 lathe: http://shdesigns.org/Craftsman12x36 ------- Re: I need help and advice concerning the split nuts Posted by: "jerdalx~xxsbcglobal.net" Date: Sat Sep 10, 2011 8:23 pm ((PDT)) Hey , I AM "downing" it... somewhat. You CAN use it. I did for a year or two. It's an OK brass lathe. For steel, not so much, although I made a fair bit of stuff with mine. The main problems are the tiny spindle vs outsized chucks, AND the totally non-standard 24 tpi (41.666 thou advance per rev) crossfeed and compound screws. Those make it extremely difficult to use without a lot of "measure and reset" activity, EVEN IF you have a calibrated dial, which was of course not standard. And changing to a 20 TPI is pretty hard, given the way they are threaded in without separate "nuts". Other than that, the machines spin parts, and the bed (contrary to other statements) is actually relatively HEAVY for the size of the machine.... As is the carriage and crossfeed, both of which are considerably heavier than the 6" atlas, which has carriage etc that looks like a lace doily by comparison. But, the 109 demerits outweigh the merits for serious daily use, as I discovered after obtaining a 10" Logan. Suddenly everything really WORKED. And I no longer had to listen to that awful bell-like back gear noise. If you want to use it, make your first order of business fabbing up a follow rest that clamps onto the carriage to support the work against cutting forces. That or only work between centers. Using the chucks with their huge stick-out is not sensible given the tiny 0.5" spindle. JT ------- NOTE TO FILE: There was a long (emphasis, LONG) discussion in the sherline group in October 2011 with subject "design flaw" that led to all sorts of opinions and perhaps even facts relating to Sherline and Taig lathes. Following here is just a tiny bit of that conversation. Anyone interested in acquiring a Taig or Sherline lathe will benefit from reading the complete conversation at Yahoo. Both products have strengths and weaknesses, and it is surprising how many folks either own both, or use Taig accessories modified for Sherline use, or vice versa. ------- Re: Fw: design flaw [sherline] Posted by: "Martin Dobbins" trainnutzx~xxyahoo.com Date: Fri Oct 14, 2011 7:52 pm ((PDT)) Hi Jerry, Ed, anybody else interested. I'm going to keep this as brief as I can so if any points need further expansion let me know. Please bear in mind that my memory is not as sharp as it once was so please check any statements for veracity. Here are the specs for the Taig lathe: http://www.cartertools.com/specific.html And for comparison the specs for Sherline lathes: http://www.sherline.com/specs.htm What I liked about the Taig Lathe: 1) Seemed like a solid rigid construction 2) Easy to duplicate dovetail angles 3) Five step pulley 4) Adjustable brass(?) gibs 5) Easy to lock a slide to prevent movement 6) Substantial saddle 7) Very reasonable pricing for lathe and accessories 8) Headstock mounts on dovetail of ways so can be moved. 9) Adjustable carriage stop mounted on headstock 10)Lots of T slots for mounting homemade accessories on headstock and tailstock with 10-32 square nuts. What I liked a little less 1) Stock motor on lowest pulley speed is too fast for steel 2) Headstock has a non- standard taper which is not hardened 3) Collets are not accurate or repeatable because of this and no drawbar 4) 3 Jaw scroll chuck only available with soft jaws 5) Tailstock has a very small base for its size, it is not repeatable. 6) Crosslide very small with limited travel. 7) Tailstock too short to cross the saddle for between centers turning 8) Rack and pinon crank for saddle too coarse for consistent feeding 9) The compound slide is poorly designed and not rigid 10) The crosslide leadscrew nut design 11) Tailstock drilling 12) Taper turning 13) No threading 14) General inaccuracy Martin ------- Re: Fw: design flaw Posted by: "Martin Dobbins" trainnutzx~xxyahoo.com Date: Fri Oct 14, 2011 8:58 pm ((PDT)) JERRY G wrote: "Hi Martin, Please expand on less liked numbers -- 11 and 14 Thanks, Jerry G" Hi Jerry, 11) Best efforts to get tailstock aligned with headstock along the lines of: http://www.cartertools.com/tailalign.html Note there is no headstock dead center unless you make one, I did for an extra check in addition to the ones shown above. Still resulted in breaking center drills regularly. The hopes of drilling a straight hole with anything less than a 0.25" drill were slim to vanishing. Maybe I had a lemon? I was able to drill holes as small as 0.020" by making a gang tool type drilling rig that sat on the crosslide. 14) Headstock is secured to the ways with a loose dovetail and one 10-32 screw (no adjustments apart from with shims). You can just make it out on the exploded view here: http://www.taigtools.com/mlathe.html Headstock needs to be changed out if you want to use WW collets so headstock realign can be a regular feature and aligning it with the ways can be difficult. No measurement of saddle travel at all, many people add a dial indicator to address that. The crosslide can develop varying backlash because of the design of the leadscrew nut and how it affixes to the crosslide. Martin ------- Re: Fw: design limitation Posted by: "DA Dossin" danatlx~xxyahoo.com Date: Sat Oct 15, 2011 2:30 am ((PDT)) Martin, I enjoyed reading your evaluation of the Taig, thank you. I have always considered the Taig and Sherline as 2 different classes of lathes with 2 different "design envelopes" and 2 different missions. Initially, I had considered the Taig but, the more I read about the Sherline, the more I was convinced, the Sherline was the best way, for me, to go. As you acknowledged the Sherline has far more accessories for the Sherline "system". I am very surprised with the Taig's lack of repeatability. I had considered the Taig closer to a watch maker's lathe. The Sherline, a hobbyist's lathe. After I joined the Sherline group, I learned that folks at NASA used the Sherline for some of their prototype development. For some reason, Joe does not mention or dwell on this aspect of the Sherline system. I have never regretted my choice of purchasing a Sherline lathe and mill. The only addition I would suggest for the Sherline lathe is the ability to reverse the lead screw direction. I use that BBQ motor. I guess I could buy one of the CNC motor and control box but, I guess I am just getting used to this limitation. There is also a suggested modification for rewiring the control box so as to reverse the direction of the Sherline motor and lead screw. Joe published this modification with the cautionary note, do it and you may damage the brushes and or motor. Of course, if I am building a wish list, an easier way to cut threads. Yes, there are suggested modifications, of the lathe, to permanently mount and use the threading attachment. If there was a permanently mounted threading attachment, I just might cut threads. I do own a thread cutting attachment but, have not spent time with it so I have no idea of its ability. The Sherline system.... I am behind it 100%. The list of available "out of the box" accessories is fantastic. The customer support could not be better. (So many products fail and disappear because of lack of customer support.) Any problem I have had can be addressed to Sherline directly with positive results. Next is the support provided in this group. Finally, if the problems were so great, I know Sherline would actually welcome a visit and address the problems, personally, with 'hands on' suggestions. Not many products can boast of the same quality of customer support. IMO, IF one understands and accepts the 'work envelope', the Sherline is the best value for the money. As always, I welcome discussion, disagreements and recommendation. DanD. ------- Re: Fw: design flaw Posted by: "Martin Dobbins" trainnutzx~xxyahoo.com Date: Sat Oct 15, 2011 1:32 pm ((PDT)) ED MAISEY wrote: > Martin, would you say that the headstock spindle and tailstock spindle have sufficient material to allow 1 Morse tapers to be established? Are the dovetails on the headstock all one piece with a jib, or two pieces? Edmund < Hi Edmund (or do you prefer Ed?) I'm sorry, I don't remember if there is sufficient material in the headstock spindle to permit making a 1 Morse taper there. I have never heard of anyone doing that, but you have to remember that the spindle nose bore is 0.75" tapering at an angle of 15 degrees over 0.1" back to the spindle through hole which is 0.343". You would have to get rid of at least the first part of that since it exceeds the maximum diameter of MT1 you would stand a chance of losing some of the 3/4"-16 spindle nose threads. As far as the tailstock is concerned it is a solid rod with a dead center on the end and threads for drill chucks just behind that. At the aft end it is split and drilled to take a cotter pin for the lever. There are some good shots of it here: http://www.jeffree.co.uk/pages/tailstock.html I'm not sure if it is large enough to put a 1 Morse Taper on it. The dovetail on one side of the headstock is complete, the other side has part dovetail, there are no gibs. A good shot of how that works is here (photos 23 and 24) http://www.cartertools.com/setup.html Martin ------- Re: Fw: design flaw Posted by: "Martin Dobbins" trainnutzx~xxyahoo.com Date: Sat Oct 15, 2011 3:13 pm ((PDT)) ED MAISEY wrote: > Martin, that's a very good condensed list of likes and dislikes. When it's convenient for you I look forward to your version of likes and dislikes of Sherline. < Edmund, Here you go, once again I've tried to be brief so if you need any of the points expanded, let me know.I own the Sherline short bed lathe and have never owned or used the long bed version. What I like about the Sherline lathe 1) In spite of materials solid and rigid for size 2) I'm amazed at the capabilities of such a small machine (I'm not easily amazed at anything) 3) Fit, finish and tolerances 4) Two step pulleys and a variable speed motor 5) Out of the box backlash and runout 6) Spindle bearings 7) Adjustablility 8) Accessories 9) Replacement parts 10) Morse taper headstock 11) Adjustable and repeatable tailstock 12) Between centers turning is easy 13) Use WW collets without changing headstock 14) Sherline service and support What I like a little less 1) Plastic gibs 2) No ability to lock an axis 3) Crosslide leadscrew insert 4) Expense 5) Tailstock Morse taper 0 6) Odd dovetail angle Martin ------- Re: Fw: design limitation Posted by: "Tom & Judy Bank" trbank1x~xxverizon.net Date: Tue Oct 18, 2011 7:29 am ((PDT)) Dan, As for watchmaker's lathes, up here in Pennsylvania, we have a watchmaker's school. There was one back many years ago that folded, but the new one was opened, as I understand it, by Swiss interests that realized they needed repairmen here if they expected to sell fine timekeepers in this country. Again, it is my understanding that the new Lancaster school uses Sherline equipment to teach their classes. As for the Taig, Lee Valley sells a lot of Taig lathes to pen turners and other miniature woodworkers. They seem to like the capabilities there. I haven't heard whether Taig is any better at withstanding abrasive grit than is Sherline (where we warn new owners to do their sanding and grinding someplace else). Regards, Tom Bank ------- Re: Fw: design limitation Posted by: "Pierre Coueffin" pcoueffinx~xxgmail.com Date: Tue Oct 18, 2011 7:39 am ((PDT)) I know some taig owners who use abrasives on them routinely. They seldom claim that the Taig withstands abrasives better, just that they can replace the parts more cheaply. Might be something to think about if you plan on doing a lot of grinding! ------- Re: Fw: design flaw Posted by: "Pete & Pam Boorum" smallifex~xxmyfairpoint.net Date: Wed Oct 19, 2011 1:21 pm ((PDT)) I use both the short bed Sherline and the Taig lathe almost every day for different purposes. Martin's list of likes and dislikes is excellent. I agree with all of them! We use a variable speed DC motor with a pot in the controller that can slow the speed way down if needed. I am told this works but haven't had the need to try it. I make a WW collet holder for the Taig lathe out of Taig's blank arbor. This requires turning down the Sherline draw bar to fit though the bore in the Taig spindle and adjusting the length a little by turning some off the aluminum handle. I turn the draw bar on the Sherline by chucking the threaded end with a blank WW collet and holding the handle end with the live center. The tapering is done using the Taig compound on the machine where it will be used. I have probably modified 8 or 10 Taigs this way for students who use gravers and need to have room for their left hand to rotate toward the headstock. There is plenty of room on the bed for tool rests when you remove the carriage. (This makes a decent jewelers type lathe and the tailstock is adjustable in the Y direction, if needed.) A Sherline 3 or four jaw chuck with a 3/16" ring is what we use on the Taig. This will work with all three of the smaller chucks. I use the larger Taig independent 4 jaw chuck in the Sherline to bore a 14 mm hole in the Taig motor pulley to use it with the PSI VS motor. Most metal turning and much really small graver turning of knobs is done on the Sherline. All bowl turning and duplicate turning is done on the Taig. (The Taig has the advantage of easy carriage removal and a bed the is absolutely parallel to the spindle so you can index the duplicator in the Y direction when installing, quickly and easily.) As a miniature artisan, not a tool maker, my requirements are practical and both machines have worked well for me for years and each is of very good quality. They do what is needed and have their own advantages. In the nutshell, the Sherline is an exceptional small metal lathe and the Taig is exceptionally versatile. In my experience reading the this list, as well as the Taig list, the model folk love Sherline and the people doing all kinds of other things from pool cues, to pens to miniature vessel turning prefer Taig. As far as mills go, we only have a Sherline 2000 which is fine for what I need. Regards, Pete Pam & Pete Boorum, Smaller Than Life IGMA Artisans 79 Sebbins Pond Drive, Bedford, NH 03110 http://www.smallerthanlife.com ------- Re: Unimat memories [sherline] Posted by: "Wayne Brandon" tiktokx~xxcox.net Date: Wed Nov 23, 2011 10:42 am ((PST)) On Nov 23, 2011, at 4:22 AM, Dan Dossin wrote: > Greg, I tried to cut through some cast iron 'crust', with the SL. I managed to tear up a chuck. I replaced the chuck, tried again, saw it would not work so, I sold everything. I do hope the man who bought it got many years use out of it. This was way way back in the 60s. I suspect, the Unimat is a good lathe for watch and clock repair.... These days, very few watches are repaired..... other than battery replacements. I have a 150 yr old cuckoo clock.... Its cleaning and repair is entrusted to an antique store that keeps 2 clock worker on site. DanD. DanD and Greg, I had two Unimat SL1000's from yard sales -- both essentially new in the box. The owner of the second one had a machine shop before retiring and never had it out of the box. He gave me good instruction on using it including keeping the tool bits razor sharp like the gravers for the WW lathe -- one to two minutes cutting mild steel. I set one up as a drill/mill and the other one as a lathe. Those along with a WW lathe, that my mentors insisted was the only way to go, were great for clock work. Also, the SL's turned out tooling for the WW lathe such as tailstock tapers in steel and brass. The limits of the SL's in both size and rigidity convinced me I needed a Sherline lathe. I sold both SL's and bought the Sherline 4400 C package and the vertical mill column. Later, I bought the 2000 mill and have been a very happy camper ever since. Wayne -------