------------------------------------------------------------------ This is just one of some 80 files about machining and metalworking and useful workshop subjects that can be read at: http://www.janellestudio.com/metal/index.html ------------------------------------------------------------------ Layout marking and printing methods are discussed here. There are also many user tips about marking details on dials or projects or tools -- whether by stamping or etching or engraving or painting -- and transferring images. There is even some information on changing blueprint plans to blackline drawings using free software. The arrival of the computer and its associated hardware has added to the choices available, but traditional methods are still very useful options. Some processes mentioned here will also benefit from information provided in the files "Cleaning Tips" and "Finish and Polish". If you got to this file directly from my HOME PAGE, return there by using your browser's back button. BUT if you came to this file as the result of a web search engine, see many additional files on my home page Machining and Metalworking at Home http://www.janellestudio.com/metal/index.html SAFETY WARNING BEWARE: DO NOT ASSUME that any subject matter or procedure or process is safe or correct or appropriate just because it was mentioned in a news/user group or was included in these files or on this site or on any other web site or was published in a magazine or book or video. Working with metals and machinery and chemicals and electrical equipment is inherently dangerous. Wear safety devices and clothing as appropriate. Remove watches, rings, and jewellery -- and secure or remove loose clothing -- before operating any machine. Read, understand and follow the latest operating procedures and safety instructions provided by the manufacturer of your machine or tool or product. If you do not have those most recent official instructions, acquire a copy through the manufacturer before operating or using their product. Where the company no longer exists, use the appropriate news or user group to locate an official copy. Be careful -- original instructions may not meet current safety standards. Updated safety information and operating instructions may also be available through a local club, a local professional in the trade, a local business, or an appropriate government agency. In every case, use your common sense before beginning or taking the next step; and do not proceed if you have any questions or doubts about any procedure, or the safety of any procedure. Follow all laws and codes, and employ certified or licenced professionals as required by those laws or codes. Hazardous tasks beyond your competence or expertise should also be contracted to professionals. Let's be really careful out there. (c) Copyright 2003 - 2013 Machining and Metalworking at Home The form of the collected work in this text file (including editing, additions, and notes) is copyrighted and this file is not to be reproduced by any means, including electronic, without written permission except for strictly personal use. ========================================================================== NOTE TO FILE: There are not a great many conversations out there about the basics of marking a project piece for drilling or cutting or whatever. The difficulty of describing such topics in words, without sketches or pictures, is largely to blame for this subject's rarity in forums. One of the best resources to the amateur metal (or wood) worker is the local library, which likely has basic text books intended for high school shop instruction. Layout and marking for projects are normally well covered -- along with priceless tips, pictures, sketches, and diagrams. Also see some of the publications mentioned in the "Metal Publications" text file on this site. ------- [QUESTION RE DIAL MARKINGS] >What is the material called used to fill milled letters with black stuff? Smart alec answer - paint ;-) Actually there are a number of ways to get the lines to blacken. All involve getting the lines to contrast with the surface. I've restored brass plates such as those on old lathe gearboxes by painting the entire plate, wiping the surface with a lint free cloth stretched tightly on a flat surface, then letting dry. Gently remove the excess dried paint on the high areas with 600 grit wet or dry contact cemented to a flat surface. Milled letters are likely large enough to make this the preferred method. If the letters are fairly deep and narrow in line width, you can use a fine artist's brush and let the paint wick into the letters. The tiny bit that will get on the face of the work can be removed later with abrasive or at the time it happens with the corner of a lint free rag with the appropriate solvent for the paint being used. If you want to get a really bombproof marking on steel, make the letters 10 thou deeper than the final depth wanted, and the work 10 thou thicker. Blue the work, and then turn/mill off the extra 10 thou. Lots of work but super durable! Fine lines such as on many handwheel collars, mikes, camera f-stop rings, and such can have the paint pressed into the lines. There are special paint sticks sold for just this purpose. I got my red and black ones (yellow, white, and orange are also available) from Fargo Enterprises, mine are labeled "Lacquer-Stik Fill In Paint", made by LA-CO Industries Inc/Markal Company. Fargo is a good company to deal with for camera repair parts and supplies, and as such can be of interest to HSM's, even if they don't have a camera to fix. Fargo is on the web at: http://www.fargo-ent.com/ You can also use the paint approach for fine lines, just thin the paint so capillary action can do its thing. Using any of these methods requires the work to be well degreased and clean. I use brake or carb cleaner, it is nasty stuff, but the spray gets down into the lines and numbers and gets things super clean. Don't use the eco-approved stuff for this, you want the low flash point stuff with all the warnings on the can. If you don't want to use this sort of stuff, or can't due to being on a 12th story condo without a balcony, health risks, whatever, washing with detergent and hot water with a scrub brush followed by an isopropyl alcohol rinse is almost as good. Don't use 70 percent rubbing alcohol, it often contains glycerin as a lubricant for rub downs. The 90+ % stuff sold for sterilizing hypodermic needles and injection sites is what you want. Most drug stores have it, labeled as isopropyl alcohol rather than rubbing alcohol. Wear gloves while handling the cleaned parts, a fingerprint in the middle of the job will ruin the outcome unless you want to use it as a signature ;-) ------- Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2001 17:59:21 +0100 From: Tony Jeffree Subject: Re: Questions for the gurus At 11:27 26/03/2001 -0500, you wrote: >You can also use the paint approach for fine lines, just thin the paint so capillary action can do its thing. Using any of these methods requires the work to be well degreased and clean. I use brake or carb cleaner, it is nasty stuff, but the spray gets down into the lines and numbers and gets things super clean. < Another point to bear in mind is what environment the resulting filled engraving will have to cope with. My "Engravers wax" response is OK for engraving on surfaces that are not going to be maltreated (e.g., clock faces); however, it would be no good for a surface that will have to deal with solvents, oils etc. I have had problems with using markers labelled as "paint markers" that are oil soluble when dry; its no good having a nicely engraved handwheel (for example) if the black filling material comes off on greasy hands. Some oil-based paints do not dry to an oil resistant surface. Regards, Tony ------- Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2001 11:27:53 -0400 From: "Daniel Munoz" Subject: Laser printers and picture transfer Hi, the list is quiet, so I ask a maybe a little off-topic question: I've read (I don't remember where) that it is possible to transfer laser printing back to a support by heating the back of the paper and thus transferring the laser toner drawings to the applied support. I've tried it, with my wife iron (while she was not looking), and it work well! The heated toner is transferred to the support in seconds, even with an old print (the toner don't need to be "fresh"). I wonder if this is used by laser-printer owners, to transfer some drawing marks to an item and draw easily some useful positions. Of course, the drawing as to be printed mirror-like, but I thought using a laser with its 600 points per inch could be a very accurate way to transfer some drawings, and it could be done on non-flat surfaces too. The toner seem to be very resistant once transferred, although I only tried on plywood. Maybe a simple varnish protection could use this trick to create some accurate rulers on metal items. Or to transfer some decorative drawings for carvers and clockmakers ? Well, what do you think ? Is it something that as been tried before? Daniel ------- Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2001 08:34:31 -0700 From: "David Goodfellow" Subject: Re: Laser printers and picture transfer Hi Daniel: How good is the transfer? I have to try this! I've just started to fool around with transferring laser images to printed circuit board stock. The toner makes a good etch resist, allowing name plates (builder's plates) to be made with a copper image on blank board stock. It also works well with brass plate. I've been using a special transfer paper that costs more per ounce than gold. It looks like you're saying I can do it with plain printer paper. Dave Goodfellow ------- Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2001 11:51:12 -0400 From: "Daniel Munoz" Subject: RE: Laser printers and picture transfer I didn't even know there was some special transfer paper ;-)) Well, yes I used some plain laser paper, but maybe the "Special" one do a real better job !? Please let me know if you try and compare the results. I quickly tried a few days ago with an iron on a piece of plywood, and the result was ok to spot a mark, but not very good. I guess the more you heat it, the better the ink is transferred. After that, it depend on the support resistance to heat treatment. No transfer on plastic I'm afraid :) My primary idea was to create a custom computer program to print some ruler scales for round items on adhesive paper (given a circumference), but I figured transfer by heat could be a better solution than adhesive paper. Just fooling around too ;-)) Daniel ------- Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2001 12:13:17 -0400 From: "Carol & Jerry Jankura" Subject: RE: Laser printers and picture transfer My experiences with anything using paper is that it does not hold dimensions very well. I can see using this kind of image as a guide to make sure that you don't mill something too far off of the mark, but I would not rely on it for any serious work. Also, I wouldn't locate more than one hole center by this method. Carol & Jerry Jankura Strongsville, Ohio So many toys, so little time ------- Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2001 10:13:29 -0700 From: "Arnold Chord" Subject: Re: Laser printers and picture transfer If I am correct the special paper is a high gloss paper. Regular paper absorbs the toner and ink. The glossy does not, allowing for more ink to be transferred. Arnold ------- Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2001 13:10:45 -0400 From: "Daniel Munoz" Subject: RE: Laser printers and picture transfer For big paper plan, of course.. but for a letter size, used right after you print it, there should be no noticeable hygrometric variations, isn't it? And there is repeatability, I just print on my laser a 8" length ruler twice, there is no "eye" difference between the beginning and the end of the ruler on both papers. So, a good calibration on the vertical *and* horizontal print result should be acceptable in some case, best than a hand mark with a graver I guess. Of course, if not *very* accurate, that's for sure. But certainly better than 0.004". Please explain why you wouldn't locate more than one hole center by this method? I don't understand but I will be happy to learn. I thought that if more than one holes are positioned at the same time, the error will be the same for all, and is not accumulated by a possible repetitive error measurement. Daniel ------- Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2001 10:15:35 -0700 From: "Arnold Chord" Subject: Re: Laser printers and picture transfer Actually this is software dependant. A good software program will give a great picture, with some exact tolerances. ------- Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2001 13:17:08 EDT From: Grafspee34x~xxaol.com Subject: Re: Laser printers and picture transfer achord2x~xxhome.com writes: << I've been using a special transfer paper that costs more per ounce than gold. >> Who sells this stuff, and what is the technical name for it? Maybe there is a cheaper place to find it? Sounds like it can be very useful for making small etched parts, if used sparingly it can go a long way too. Thanks! ------- Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2001 13:21:24 -0400 From: "Daniel Munoz" Subject: RE: Laser printers and picture transfer Ah, thanks for the tip Arnold, I will try with glossy paper. Of course, you're right. The less the ink is absorbed, the better it will transfer. I remember using once a paper for business card so glossy the toner was not able to penetrate and was fussy when rubbing the printed result... a must for transfer I guess ! ;-) Daniel. ------- Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2001 10:45:14 -0700 From: "David Goodfellow" Subject: Re: Laser printers and picture transfer I've been using a product called "Press-N-Peel" (PNP). It cost me $11.95 for 5 8-1/2x11 sheets. It's intended for making printed circuit boards. It feels like a sort of plastic - maybe mylar - and you print on the "dull" side. They claim it's good for a trace witdth down to 5 mil. Like many things, you have to learn the technique. So far I've gone through 2 sheets and have made a couple of reasonably successful builder's plates but there is still room for a lot of improvement. It will take practice for me to get it right consistently. Dave Goodfellow ------- Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2001 10:52:16 -0700 From: Randy Gordon-Gilmore Subject: RE: Laser printers and picture transfer Silicone-impregnated baking paper has been recommended by several people for toner-transfer use also. For actually etching PCB's, the material of choice is PnP Blue, which is a sturdy plastic backing sheet with an applied thinner plastic sheet, that uses the printed toner as a kind of hot-melt glue when you transfer the image. Some people have reported good results, but I was not able to duplicate them. PnP Blue is made by Techniks and, for anyone interested, is shown step-by-step at http://www.techniks.com/press-n-peel.html Best regards, Randy -------- Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2001 11:12:18 -0700 From: Alan Marconett KM6VV Subject: Re: Laser printers and picture transfer Hi Daniel, I think something like this is done to make PC boards from a transfer paper. available in local electronics shops. Can't remember the name of the stuff. Alan KM6VV ------- Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2001 11:13:04 -0700 From: "David Goodfellow" Subject: Re: Laser printers and picture transfer I just touched on that in a previous message, because I didn't want to be seen as a shill for the company. But since you asked, the product name is PRESS-N-PEEL. I got it from All Electronics -- http://www.allelectronics.com/ The specific page of their on-line catalog in .pdf is -- http://www.allelectronics.com/pdf/74.pdf I went to one of their local stores (Van Nuys, California) to get mine, but they do sell on-line. "... if used sparingly ... I make the image on Corel Draw, which allows me to print it out "mirror image." I cut out a piece of this stuff just slightly larger than the image, and Scotch Tape it to the image on a previously printed copy. This is to make sure the PNP is positioned properly. Then I stuff the whole mess back into the laser printer. The learning experience with this stuff is in two areas: cleanliness and amount of heat. Cleanliness: Perfection in this area is required. I finally got things to transfer properly when I first scrubbed the part with a common soap-filled scouring pad whose name I disremember, then scrubbed some more with scouring powder (another kitchen product whose name I can't remember -- maybe I have a problem with kitchens). The point is, you simply cannot get it too clean. A mere finger print will break up the image. Temperature: Too much and the image spreads, losing detail. Too little and the transfer is not consistent. I preheat the part to take the image with a heat gun. Then I place the PNP image-side down on the part. I place a piece of paper over that, and iron the whole package. I use the paper between the PNP and the iron because the PNP tends to stick to the iron otherwise, and smear the image. It's important to iron until the whole package is uniformly hot. I cooled it off with water as directed, but I think I may get better results if I just let it cool off naturally, maybe with a book on it to keep the pressure on while it cools. As you can see, I'm still experimenting. Dave Goodfellow Northridge, California "No problem too small to baffle this expert" -------- Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2001 11:27:24 -0700 From: Dave Martindale Subject: RE: Laser printers and picture transfer Even when freshly printed, the accuracy of a laser printed diagram depends on the mechanism of the printer itself. (Long description of how a laser printer works follows - you've been warned!) In the direction that the paper is fed (usually the long side of a tandard page), the positioning accuracy is determined by how evenly the paper moves. This is usually done by a stepper motor and gear train, so it should be pretty even along the length of the page - though probably not exactly 600 DPI. You'd need to calibrate the printer by measuring a known distance scale in order to know the exact DPI value to use. In the other direction, things are more complex and possibly less accurate. The dots are positioned by a motor spinning a mirror. The motor speed is regulated, but like any motor its speed will go slightly above and below the average speed over time, and this will cause dots to appear slightly left or right of their intended position. The dot clock for the pixel data being sent to the laser will be generated from a crystal oscillator, so the dots are spaced a constant amount of *time* apart as they leave the laser. If we assume the motor and mirror rotates at a constant rate, then there is a fixed angular distance between the path of the light for each dot as it leaves the mirror. If the imaging surface was wrapped into a cylinder whose center was located at the axis of the rotating mirror, this would give a constant spacing of the dots across the image. And, in fact, this is how some laser film recorders work - the film is bent into a cylinder. But a laser printer can't do that. The imaging surface is a metal drum that has to be oriented like a roller to the paper path, and the portion that is being written for a single scan line is flat. So the distance from the spinning mirror to the imaging drum is variable - it's closer in the center of the page and further at the edges. This means that there needs to be a lens between the rotating mirror and the drum in order to focus the beam through this changing distance. An ordinary lens can do this, but there's still a problem with the spacing of the dots: the dots will be spaced further apart at the edges of the paper and closer together in the middle. This is because the constant angular spacing between dots at the mirror gives a varying linear spacing of the dots on the drum due to the mirror-drum distance changing. Laser printers solve this problem using a special lens design called a "f theta" lens. This has a specific amount of barrel distortion built into it, so that a constant change in *angle* for the incoming light results in a constant change in *distance* on the imaging surface. This is exactly what you want. But the accuracy of the positioning of the dots depends on how perfectly the lens distortion matches the ideal f-theta curve, which may not be perfect. So, along the width of the paper, you may find that the dot spacing varies between the center and edge of the page. This is more complex than along the length, where the spacing is likely constant. In addition, horizontal lines aren't necessarily exactly at right angles to vertical lines. It all depends on how accurately the spinning mirror's rotation axis is perpendicular to the imaging drum axis, and how accurately the paper feed path is aligned to the imaging drum. Unlike machine tools, there's probably no way to adjust this if it's wrong. The end result of all this is that within a small local area on the paper, the relative dot spacing should be accurate to a fraction of the dot size, but over long distances on the paper dots could potentially be many thousandths of an inch away from their ideal positions. You could measure and compensate for differences in the average horizontal and vertical dot spacing, and the amount that they are out of perpendicular, and this would reduce the size of the errors, but this still wouldn't eliminate the effects of any change in horizontal dot spacing along one horizontal line. So, a laser printer is a useful and neat device, but it's not a precision measuring tool. And it's probably not as accurate as a pen plotter, which has some sort of positioning mechanism that's more linear. Dave ------- Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2001 11:55:01 -0700 From: "Arnold Chord" Subject: Re: Laser printers and picture transfer With the hot melt it is better if you can hold the paper down with something. Some people use a heated roller, in the style of an old wash machine wringer, not as large. One or both rollers are heated. When the press and peel is sent through, the paper is held pretty firm. This will reduce sliding of the paper. Arnold ------- Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2001 14:55:45 -0500 From: Ron Roske Subject: Re: Laser printers and picture transfer Hi, gang! I thought that I'd throw my 2 cents worth to carry the information on this technique a bit further. First as to what's actually happening with this process. The short story is that the toner used in laser printers consists of a fine plastic powder that is coated with carbon (simple explanation, but accurate enuff!). This is laid out on, and stays on, the paper thru the use of positive and negative charges, etc. As the paper goes out of the printer thru the exit rolls, the toner is heated and actually melts into the surface fibers of the paper. To accomplish the type of transfer, that we are talking about here, all you need is something that has a surface that will not allow the toner to melt into it, and that will not melt as it goes thru the exit rollers. There are other parameters that are to be considered such as flexibility and feedability and so forth, but there is room for experimentation in this arena. The non-stick aspect is what is important. With the melted toner applied to whatever type of carrier you have picked, it will readily transfer to where ever you want it to go. And that is accomplished by the application of an even heat, by whatever method, over the entire surface that is sufficient to remelt the toner. Again, there is plenty of room for experimentation. As to the accuracy. If you are using a current technology laser printer, and with the assumption that it's up to snuff and working as it should, I doubt that you will detect .001 difference in horizontal placement from side to side on an eight inch print. If in doubt, do a print and compare it to the original by measuring. This is not meant to disregard anything that Dave M said in his post (copy below)! What he stated is very true and may be applicable in many cases. Each printer has it's own characteristics and what may work on your printer may not work on mine. All I'm trying to get across is that you not be afraid to try it on whatever printer you have available and see what happens. Hope this info proves to be of use to some of you and hope your day goes well. Ron ------- Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2001 13:28:48 -0700 From: Randy Gordon-Gilmore Subject: Re: Laser printers and picture transfer At 02:55 PM 4/13/2001 -0500, Ron Roske wrote: >accuracy. If you are using a current technology laser printer, and with the assumption that it's up to snuff and working as it should, I doubt that you will detect .001 difference in horizontal placement from side to side on an eight inch print. If in doubt, do a print and compare it to the < Actually, even with a phototypesetter imaging on Mylar you're doing good to hold .001" accuracy over that size. Paper stretching, drive roller slipping, uneven thermal expansion of the paper while going through the fuser section, non-equilibration of the paper to humidity changes can all affect the accuracy. But the real limit to using a laser printer for direct artwork is the pixel size. The toner, as Ron said, is held to the imaging drum electrostatically, and transfered to the paper where it is fused (melted) on. If you look at a single toner pixel under a microscope, it does not have a sharp edge, but looks almost like a little spray-paint spot. This spreading of the toner spots (analagous to ink spread in halftone printing) is what limits the sharpness and resolution of the output. What was the real problem for me when playing with the thermal transfer for photoetching, was the further smearing of the lines when ironing the toner onto the workpiece (either PCB material or thin brass). Compared to the very good results I have with photoresist, the package of PnP Blue that I went through trying to develop a workable technique was not worth it for me. On the other hand, there is an excellent paper for laser-printing at least trial artwork onto for imaging photoresist. It's called Newscraft LGN (Laser Generated Negative) and is described, and available from: http://www.systemfacilities.com/lgn.htm I use it for artwork where I don't need really fine resolution, and trial versions of artwork I eventually plan to have photoplotted. And, for the final artwork, I have been using Precision Digital Imaging: http://www.precisiondigital.com/ who has the most accurate output I know of, and was recommended to me by a commercial photoetcher. Sorry, this has deviated a ways from Sherline machining. But I do use a combination of photoetched parts along with machined parts in my model building (which has been on hiatus while I CNC'ed my 5400 mill) so it's a subject near and dear to me... :-) Best regards, Randy (couple of photoetching articles on my website for anyone interested) Randy Gordon-Gilmore Rio Vista, CA, USA http://www.rickadee.net/~zephyrus -------- Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2001 18:19:03 -0400 From: "Carol & Jerry Jankura" Subject: RE: Laser printers and picture transfer Because I'd be concerned that the relative distances between the centers may not be exactly what I had designed. I would tend to trust the leadscrew and making sure that I was turning the leadscrew in only one direction. Carol & Jerry Jankura Strongsville, Ohio ------- From: seanc62x~xxy... Date: Mon Jul 30, 2001 6:23 am Subject: Re: Laser printers and picture transfer I was just checking the old messages out and though I'd respond to this. > But a laser printer can't do that. The imaging surface > is a metal drum that has to be oriented > like a roller to the paper path, and the portion > that is being written for a single scan line is flat. > So the distance from the spinning mirror to > the imaging drum is variable - it's closer > in the center of the page and further at the edges > So, a laser printer is a useful and neat device, > but it's not a precision measuring tool. > And it's probably not as accurate as a pen > plotter, which has some sort of positioning mechanism > that's more linear. Dave Most 'laser' printers any more use a light emitting diode bar with an array of LEDs a few high by width of paper wide. I don't believe the laser and mirror mechanism type of laser printer is used any more - the led bars are a lot cheaper to produce and maintain. The main thing to watch out for when using this technique is that most copier/laser printers are designed to blow up an image 101% (at least that was the way it was when I worked on them). Postscript capable laser printers are good for getting 100% image size if memory serves. While you probably won't see any image distortion across the width of the paper, the length is another thing. The feed rate of the paper has to match the roll rate of the drum. Worn feed rollers or paper dust causing slippage can be a problem. The thing to do though is check the distance between two points (spaced about as far apart as a sheet of paper will allow) on a test copy. Any drawing program that allows you to set the distance between grid points and 'snap' objects to a grid should do. If you see that things are slightly larger in both width and length (101% problem), see if you can resize the image to 98-99% through the program or through the 'properties' in the print dialog window. This is a good technique for putting lettering on control panel face plates for electronics boxes (haven't done it myself yet but I recall reading about it somewhere). A careful layer or two of spray laquer could probably be applied over it (it might cause the toner to run, so test this first). I hadn't thought about using it for layout. Acetone will clean the toner from parts. I used to use TCFE (trichloro- fluoro-ethane) but it's no longer available. Maybe my quite liberal use of it back in my copier repair days accounts for some of my questionable thinking. There are a few different toner transfer papers available for the printed circuit board market - 'Toner Transfer System', 'PNP-Wet', and 'PNP-Blue'. My testing of these three has led me to favor the 'PNP-Blue' for my printed circuit board work. Sean ------- From: Pavel Korensky Date: Mon Jul 30, 2001 7:01 pm Subject: Re: [sherline] Re: Laser printers and picture transfer I am using the HP LaserJet 6 for PCB making without any problem. I am printing on the transparent plastic sheets and I am using UW light unit for photoresistive PCBs. I am using the ferric chloride (??? right english translation) for etching. With this method, I am doing two sided boards with a lot of through-the-hole and SMD components without any problem. Even the 208 pins QFP circuits and 12 mils wide traces are not a problem. PavelK ------- From: gizmomakerx~xxb... Date: Tue Jul 31, 2001 5:23 am Subject: Re: Laser printers and picture transfer > Acetone will clean the toner from parts. It is a pity there doesn't seem to be a similar process for inkjets with the ink system not being a heat transfer. Have not seen any post where someone has come up with a reliable method. Though for labels, printing onto clear adhesive backed film is quite good. > I used to use TCFE (trichloro-fluoro-ethane) but it's no longer > available. Maybe my quite liberal use of it back in my copier repair > days accounts for some of my questionable thinking. Count yourself lucky Sean. Friend of mine used trichlorethylene, pre runner of TCFE, and labelled and marketed as a contact cleaner to clean electronic stuff, drag on the fag, do some more cleaning.... killed him inside 3 years. Robert Sydney Australia ------- Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 22:49:37 -0500 From: RichD Subject: Re: Layout Pencils for Metalworking Jim Rickenbacker wrote: > These are Sanford Verithin 734 pencils. They are about $6 a dozen from > many suppliers. Jim & all, Having used the white 734, I find the General's TEL-E-MARKER No.1256WWH (white) is better at leaving a mark on dark metal and painted surfaces. Also, black steels marked with the Verithin No.753 (silver) is excellent. A soft grade of graphite pencil works for some things others do not. RichD ------- Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2003 10:48:57 EDT From: toolroomtrusteex~xxaol.com Subject: Vellum and Mylar I suspect as jrwillmsx~xxhal-pc.org posted that those shaper drawings are on vellum. When I worked for NOAA we called it tracing cloth AIR. It was a fabric with a blue sizing on it. It didn't erase that well, though a little judicious work could correct small mistakes. It had the advantage that it could be folded. I worked for what was the Coast and Geodetic Survey, their surveying manual specified a maximum size of cloth and then explained that was based on size of drawers used for storage at headquarters. Mylar is so much better for this work. A lot easier to correct mistakes. Anybody here remember Leroy lettering sets? My oceanographic tech department had 6 sets. I went to a lot of trouble to make the sets complete with the furnished pens even though we were using Rapidograph pens. I went on leave once and when I returned found that my heretofore favorite employee had tossed the old pens since they weren't used. I knew my command wouldn't back me up so stuffed my feelings. A coupla years before I retired we got software to use a plotter for the major drafting we did. I wasn't sorry to see that job obsoleted! I do consider it a privilege to know guys that could spend a couple weeks drafting on a piece of tracing cloth with NO mistakes. These guys were real craftsmen. Larry ------- Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2003 10:25:24 -0500 From: jrw Subject: Re: Vellum and Mylar Larry: It was a great day when the Mylar product arrived in our department and be able to go to the special pencils. I have my old drafting set, including a drawer full of templates, as well as the great LeRoy lettering set that goes along with the K&E drafting machine. JRW ------- Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2003 18:45:21 -0000 From: "Art Volz" Subject: Re: Vellum and Mylar Joe and Larry-- I too still have a large collection of both mine, and my dad's, drafting stuff--all manual--except for a couple of electric-powered erasing machines. The last time I tested my "just enuf" set of Rapidograph pens--at least ten years ago--they all (3) still worked. One college-era Christmas my dad's special present to me was a K&E 6- inch nickle plated compass...which I still have...and in near pristine condition: it was intended to last a life time. I remember I saved enuf coins back in the early '60's to buy two Rapidographs for inking some final drawings made in a mechanical design course at ND, and still have both. I didn't see any (that I can remember) non-paper drawing sheets until I joined the Green Machine in Frozen Chosen (64-65). I was the Assistant S3/Battalion Fire Direction Officer for a 105mm towed howitzer battalion with prepared and occupied firing positions right below the DMZ. We had a few Mylar firing charts with our pre- determined targets and barrages located on them for when "the balloon went up." For training, however, we used paper 1:25,000 scale firing charts. They were OK for training, but would tend to stretch with the Korean humidity and contract so, for the "real" firing charts we used only Mylar...when we could scrounge extra ones. The stretching/contracting of paper charts would vary firing ranges considerably when measured with the range deflection protractor. For the annual Battalion and Battery Tests, only hoarded Mylar firing charts were used. We never used ink on them, only pencil, so they tended to last a while. When one target area would become too "holy" because of the pin holes, we'd just renumber and shift grid as appropriate. (Firing charts have a pre-printed grid, 1:25,000 scale, with the square grid being either 1,000 x 1,000 yards (then) or meters (now).) With a hoard of "100-mile-per-hour" green cloth tape (similar to duct tape), a roll of map board clear acetate, and some Mylar firing charts, one became a real "King Rat" and very "well-liked" on the social circle...40 years ago...in Frozen Chosen...with the First Cav. Art (Houston) ------- Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 09:06:53 -1000 (HST) From: Tom Benedict Subject: A mechanical dodge [taigtools] I've been making some parts for work in a desperation machining job, so time has been of the essence. A number of the parts didn't need to be cleanly machined all over, so I'm able to settle for saw cuts. In an effort to save time, I hit on a potentially useful mechanical dodge: Most of the parts are smaller than an 8.5x11 page. After drawing up the parts in CAD, I printed out a 1:1 picture of each part, laminated it, and using a paper cutter, cut out the outline of the part. The lamination makes it stiff enough I could use the template to trace each of the parts onto my material using a scribe. Some band saw work, and the parts were ready to have their hole patterns drilled out on the mill. I've used the 1:1 template idea before when selecting material for parts (it makes it really easy to hold the template up to the material and say, "Yup!" or "Nope...") But this is the first time I've used the template to actually mark out the work. The same trick could be used on parts that are going to receive finish machining. When cutting the template out, just leave extra room on each side. This is likely old hat, but I figure someone might not have used it before, and anyone with a printer can pull the same stunt. Tom ------- Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 00:22:48 +0000 From: "steve sc" Subject: Using a printer for quick layout Tom reported on a mechanical dodge using a printer to print a template. I do the same thing, particularly useful in making sheet metal enclosures and front panels for electronics projects. The only different wrinkle is after printing the template, I spray the back with spray adhesive (3M makes a good one) and stick the template to the metal. Then I cut away, through the template. If I am being fussy, I scribe through the stuck on paper template with an Xacto knife to score the metal and I prick punch the holes. The surprising part is how accurate even cheap inkjet printers are! Try printing one to one with your CAD program and scale the resulting drawing. I typically find that I am within a few thou, more than good enough for most sheet metal work. I wrote a short article about this technique a few years ago: Machinist's Workshop Magazine, OCT/NOV 2000. Steve ------- Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 09:52:29 -0700 From: "Felice Luftschein and Nicholas Carter" Subject: Re: Layout Advise [taigtools group] "Lynn Livingston" wrote: > I'm in need of some layout advise. I have found that my way of doing > layout work is not accurate enough for some things I'd like to achieve. > Specifically, laying out for holes. > I'm currently using various scaled rules, small squares and scribes. > If the part I'm laying out is smallish, this becomes difficult > equipment to hold securely by hand. Also, my eyes are not what they > used to be and I find I can no longer focus well on my 10th rule. As > well, I can't trust that I can make an accurate mark either on smaller > parts (say 1"x1"X1"), being that I'm sure I'm not locating the rule > precisely on each part. > I have also used the mill to layout parts, and sometimes this is okay. > But, I figure it's time I begin another chapter in this hobby. > What would I use to layout and scribe accurate lines? I've seen height > gages and surface gages in catalogs, but I haven't any idea how to use > them. I mean, I could see how to measure with a height gage, but how > would you mark a part with it? > I'd also appreciate a recommendation if you have one to give on any > books or web sites that explain layout principles in beginner language. > Thanks for any help or advise, Lynn Livingston Unfortunately I don't have any pics of my current layout system up on the web (I'll see about that the next time I do some laying out). Basically the height gage has a sharp (these days carbide tipped, usually) knife edge that is used to scribe the line in the part. Surface gages have the same function but generally use a round scribe. Either of these can be raplaced with a dial indicator or other gage for measuring purposes. I have a Fowler (Chinese Import) 24" electronic height gage which although only accurate to about +/- .001" makes layout very easy, especially when measuring relative to another location. The height gage sits on an 18" x 18" grade A granite surface plate (Do-All, purchased at a surplus sale for $35.00), Granite plates, even new, are inexpensive if you don't have to pay for shipping. The hidden element to the system is a right angle plate, that the work is rested against for scribing the lines. In my case I use a large 4" x 8" Taft-Pierce Box Parallel (bought at auction, again for about $30.00) which is quite square, but any good angle plate will work. It helps to have a second angle plate or 1-2-3 block so that you can make sure the work is not only square to the angle plate but to its side (especially if the end resting on the surface plate is rough). It helps to mark the work for scribing with layout dye or an indelible marker pen. This is probably as clear as mud... Check out our homepage www.cartertools.com/nfhome.html ------- Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 17:39:44 -0000 From: "Lynn Livingston" Subject: Re: Layout Advise Well, I can see how you'd use the angle plate or two and maybe a 123 block to rest your work up against to help ensure that the work is at a known relational angle. What I can't see in my minds eye is how at the point you have your part positioned correctly, you take something like a long ruler stood on it's end with a non moving (except up or down) arm and get the part marked. In my mind (and it is a simple one now), marking a part must require some action or movement, and I just don't see yet how a clamped part, and a stationary scribe are going to get together and cause an action?????!!!!! :-) If I'm scribing manually with a square, I move the scribe to cause a mark. What is it I'm not seeing about your setup that causes a mark to be made? Okay, I know that since the gage has the scribe point, it's gonna' be doing the marking. But, being on a fixed base, I assume the gage scribe isn't gonna' be doing any moving? So, that leaves the part that has to move... If it's clamped to plates and blocks, that are setting on a solid surface, and that surface is a piece of granite that is the same thing that is anchoring the gage, what is gonna' move? Yeah, I'm a newbie without experience, and it just keeps catching up with me! Lynn ------- Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 10:48:04 -0700 From: "Felice Luftschein and Nicholas Carter" Subject: Re: Re: Layout Advise You can do either one of two things: 1) rotate and slide the height gage along the surface plate, keeping the tip/point in contact with the work. The height is fixed, contact pressure is determined by your on-board computer (your brain) and the surface plate ensures the scribing is done in the same plane. 2) move the work along the surface plate, using it like a fence. This only works if the plate is either clamped to the plate or heavy enough (in the case of my box parallel) to not move, and the work has enough of a surface bearing on the plate to not rock. Check out our homepage www.cartertools.com/nfhome.html ------- Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 10:50:01 -0700 (GMT-07:00) From: Larry Richter Subject: Re: Layout Advise Wow. Do I have a notion how this feels. Had real problems recently with large layouts on wood, where the small tools wouldn't suffice and the used mind did not jump up and adapt quick. Machinists I sent drawings to in the old days used the Bridgeport table to do layout, like you have the Taig, if they had one they considered reliable enough. I suppose it sounds funny, but the shop was responsible for usable accuracy, not the machine, and a lot of machines weren't so much reliable as they were inaccurate in a repeatable and predictable manner. The heart of old layout techniques was a big steel compass, though, and a rule it could be set with, and a lot of patience in swinging arcs ala high school geometry and scratching intersections in Dykem blue backgrounds. Still the same in sheet metal outfits, I expect. You did your measuring away from the work under best conditions and transferred it. Block stacking was a big part of it, too. The geometric construction was complicated, and the physical manipulations simple but tedious and unforgiving. It allowed someone who could get consistent results to be somebody. I don't know that anyone ever made the process easy, but, once again, the clear and straightforward examples of explanation come from the teens, twenties, and thirties. And once again Lindsey Publications has about all that are available now. There are also dead serious, no fluff, cut to the bone/cut to the chase books on how to do everything in machine work, from the industrial mobilization in World War Two. These are sort of the grown-up version of the high school texts that explained how every common machine worked and how they broke that were in the high school curriculum during the war. They were written, published, distributed, and used up in just three to four years, the length of the time that the industrial push lasted, and are usually rough in every way, but they have more sense per pound about old style skills than anything else I've seen. Lindsey used to have some of those, a Ford one, mainly, but I wonder if they still have a demand for such hairy-chested information. If you are doing repetitive work without using the electronics, it may be jigs and fixtures that are the real subjects, things that spread the work invested in one monster layout session over a number of resulting work pieces. My apologies if I've missed the point here. ------- Date: Sun, 05 Feb 2006 14:23:19 -0000 From: "sebplb" Subject: After you have laid a part out [beginnerswkshp] I have a question regarding what you do with the lay out lines once you have laid out all the lines on a part and mounted it in the mill. How do you use the lines? Do you just keep milling along until you reach the line, using it as a limit of cut? This would be like when you do wood working. Or, do you use the dials for setting all the distances and just use the lines as a check? Or is it a combination of both, depending on the allowable tolerances for the part? Any one have any good thoughts or reference materials on this matter? I do not recall ever seeing this referenced in any of the books I have read so far. Thanks. ------- Date: Sun, 5 Feb 2006 09:44:29 -0500 From: "Cliff Ward" Subject: RE: After you have laid a part out I'm still learning so perhaps not qualified to provide a "expert" answer....having said that, I use layout line to establish points for centers of radius, drilling locations, etc. Once laid out and center punched, the punches become the reference point and the layout lines are no longer referenced. I also use the advancing knob to move a certain amount across the XY travel when doing milling...I find this more accurate than relying on looking at a layout line when milling to size....just be careful to take up the backlash. Regards, Cliff Cary, North Carolina ------- Date: Sun, 5 Feb 2006 11:59:11 -0800 From: "keith green" Subject: Re: After you have laid a part out For myself, I use the lines to rough out the part (don't go over them) and then use the dials to get the right size from there. On a CNC I use them for setting up the occasional offset in a casting or something. The center-punch marks for holes get used for reference as well: Run the table up to eyeball the hole location, go the rest of the way with the handwheels. You have to note the initial position of the handwheel so that you know what number it will be on when you get to the hole position. This is figured out with a calculator and changes from machine to machine as the handwheels rarely have the same graduations. I work in a jobbing shop and this process speeds things up immensely. On the Bridgeport I use once in a while, we spray bluing on the front of the table where it slides. We scribe a light line in the bluing on the moving part of the slide. At each position where a feature gets machined (the start and stop of the feature) we scribe a light line on the adjacent point on the non-moving part adjacent to the previously scribed line. Note the handwheel readings at each mark and, on subsequent pieces, you can keep an eye on the cutter until two lines start to line up, then scoot around to the end of the machine to watch the dial. You can power-feed almost right up to a mark this way; a big plus in work-hardening stainless and such. On parts that don't need a hell of a lot of precision, the old guys in the shop lay out lines to machine to and then go down each line and prick- punch a small mark every 3/8" or so. This is done very carefully so as to ensure that each punch mark is as close to being on the line as possible. When machining, the lines may become lost in chips and coolant, scratched of during cleaning, etc. The punch-marks remain no matter what. The object then becomes to mill the part so that half the punch-mark is milled off. You can get pretty close to a size working like this. We mill some pretty big weldments and castings in this manner; stuff that can easily absorb a .015 deviation from the drawing. I've seen some old parts come into the shop for repair and you can often still see the old half-punch-marks still there. Kind of like a piece of Shaker furniture with the marking-knife lines still on it. ------- Date: Sun, 05 Feb 2006 04:54:19 -0000 From: Subject: What are the tools on your bench??? [taigtools] Not the Wrenches or maybe pliers... not those kinds of tools, I am speaking more of items on your work bench that make YOUR TAIG TIME easier. I will share some of the items I use regularly, remember most of my work is with woods. Some brass, some bronze...but wood is my thing. First marking... For metals an alcohol based pen. These are often called "Marks All" in America. I apply it like metal workers apply Dykum, all over the surface of metal I am milling. For scribing, (and a multitude of other uses) I have a reground 1/8th inch carbide drill bit, its kept in a quarter inch "hex drive"keyless drill chuck. To sharpen that, and other things, I have three Diamond sharpening stones. Two are "medium fine" and "fine" "credit card size" and the third one is a 1X3X1/4 inch Fishing knife sharpener! That last item has a GROOVE right down its center to sharpen fish hooks. I sharpen my scriber in that groove making both edges x~xx 45 degrees to the perpendicular off the face of the plated diamonds. Nice HUH! The particular carbide bit is from the Printed Circuit Board industry, and is a #80 drill bit in the Drill number index. I use a lot of those doing finger jointing on woods. I don't try to "route with them", I just drill and move an axis 3/4's of the diameter and drill again. They last between one hole and several inches of holes in a row, depending on (mostly) operator skill! One of the more usual tools that I use LOTS of are self-stick mailing labels! I cover wood (and sometimes metals) ala Dykum, and then put my .5 MM pencils to use either with rulers and straight edges, or freehand, depending on what I am doing. I leave that on and just cut through it. For my wood working with the mill OR FREEHAND sawing I can take a line or leave a line... with the mill I can cut that line down the middle. (My thin freehand saw is only .020 wide with kerf.) I also have, in four colors, 3/4 inch "price spots". Self Sticking, the four colors provide me with signals as to what is happening if I have to leave for a while. Yellow: NOTICE! (EASY, RIGHT?) Red: STOP!.... look and remember... Green: (everything is OK, proceed as before) The blue labels.... well I use them to COVER the holes on my HighTechSystems MODULAR VISE. I absolutely love that system, combined with a tooling plate, I have quick control of my clamping needs... EXCEPT all those darn little holes get filled with swarf! Or wood dust...UNTIL... I started covering those holes with the blue dots! Need a hole on the plate, remove the dot; need to move that vise? remove the dot, instant CLEAN HOLE to insert an allen head wrench into! Double stick tapes. Plural as I have three varieties, long term sticking or very small stuff... the two inch wide roll 25 feet long is as expensive as my cheap stuff. I buy six rolls for about 10$US and those six rolls are sixty feet long IIRC. I have foam center double stick tapes that I use occasionally, but I still will mention it. In the attaching area I also use Hot Glue guns, often glueing a piece of wood to an 1X3X.250 inch aluminum plate, so I can clamp THAT into my vise, rather than the wood itself. When I first received my mill, I cut about a dozen of those just for practicing "how to mill". It was a good thing for me. One "regular tool" that is not often known by crafts people is made by Taylor Design Group, Inc -- the item is their rulers. What is special about them, (for general FINE wood working)is that they are designed to be used ONLY with .5MM pencils. They have a series of slots or holes which allow consistant EASY measuring down to 1/64th inch! (Remember saying I split 0.5MM lines? That is why. The ruler is attached to an aluminum edge guide, locking it into a perfect 90 degree angle so a person can draw perpindicular lines to a wood's edge, OR parallel lines TO the edge of the wood! I have no financial interest in their company, except owning maybe five of those little rulers, or HighTechSystemsLLC, other than I will be buying some more of their products, hence investing my $$$ into their company, and of course TAIG itself, other than owning two of their lathes and a CNC mill, which I run MANUALLY! So what are some different tools that are on your work bench???? ------- Date: Sun, 5 Feb 2006 20:31:37 -0000 From: "Ellis Cory" Subject: Re: After you have laid a part out Keith wrote >...the old guys in the shop lay out lines to machine to and then go down each line and prick-punch a small mark every 3/8" or so. < We had to do that when I first learnt about metalwork/engineering at school. The difference was, we had to file to split the lines !!! Ellis ------- Date: Sun, 5 Feb 2006 12:49:54 -0800 From: "keith green" Subject: Re: After you have laid a part out Yup, I've done it that way, too. Time is too expensive for things like that to be done on a regular basis, though. We have this giant slotter that I run sometimes and this method works well for marking out the boundaries for large keys to be slotted out rough and then finished with and on-size cutter. I've done 4 and 5" wide keyways in 3' long bores this way. You stand on top of the machine when cutting these and the dials are down and to the right, facing away from you, so you can't see them anyway. For this, we cut up close to the layout (everything is covered in cutting oil, so you need the center-pops) and then use a magnetic-back dial indicator to go the rest of the way after measuring the roughed depth of the key. They tell me that, years ago, the key depth was a little less critical and they would just cut up to split the center-pops and leave it there. It would be up to the millwrights and fitters to custom fit the key on-site during the installation. Keith ------- Probably an Easy Machinist's Trick [sherline] Posted by: "montanaaardvark" boblombardix~xxcfl.rr.com Date: Fri Aug 4, 2006 6:45 pm (PDT) There's probably an easy trick for this, so I thought I'd ask around. I have a large tube that I need to drill at 120 degree intervals - 1/3 the way around the outside of the tube. It's way too big for my sherline rotary table - it's 12" OD. That would be an easy way, though. So how do I mark up the tube so that it's divided into equal thirds? I'm embarrassed by how badly my first attempt came out. I have slots instead of holes. Bob (yes, I are an engineer, but I wrangle electrons and radio waves, not things I can put a ruler on or an end mill across) ------- Re: Probably an Easy Machinist's Trick Posted by: "Mark Zirinsky" markzyx~xxcovad.net Date: Fri Aug 4, 2006 8:24 pm (PDT) a jewelers trick 1. take a piece of paper, or string. 2. wrap it around the circumference of the tube or pipe. 3. trim length to exactly the circumference, or in your case, about 31.54268 " 4. take string in hand, and by eye, fold until you have 3 equal lengths. 5. mark the 1/3 and 2/3's mark 6. rewrap around tube 7. voila regards mark Zirinsky, Denver ------- Re: Probably an Easy Machinist's Trick Posted by: "David Holloway" davidx~xxyawolloh.fsnet.co.uk Date: Sat Aug 5, 2006 4:01 am (PDT) Bob: You don't say how long the tube is, nor how thick ... but this may be of use if the ends are turned square: - Sit the tube vertically on a flat surface - Take a set of dividers (or whatever you may call them over there) and set the points to the diameter (6") apart - Mark a point on the upper (end) surface. You may need to make a little dink with a centre punch to stop the point wandering - Inscribe a mark on the end 6" away as the crow flies. - Repeat, and you will find that after the 6th the point will be back where you started - you have divided the circle into 6ths. - Just take every 2nd mark and transfer (using a square?) onto the vertical (round) surface of the tube. Well, that's a lot of ifs ... I spent a lot of time drawing 'flowers' in geometry lessons, as a nipper. Hope that's of use. David Henley-on-Thames,UK ------- Re: Probably an Easy Machinist's Trick Posted by: "Alan Marconett" KM6VVx~xxarrl.net Date: Sat Aug 5, 2006 11:54 am (PDT) Hi Bob, Dave, OK, you have a rotary table. How about bolting a 12" square (or a little larger) plate or disk onto it, put your tube (centered) on top of that, and then rotate and mark your points. A surface gage and some prussian blue should take care of that! Second plan, draw a circle on a scrap of sheet metal the same size as the tube with dividers, mark off on the circumference with the dividers (6 even sectors). Then you have your three points. Set the tube over the circle, and copy the points. Alan KM6VV ------- Re: Probably an Easy Machinist's Trick Posted by: "montanaaardvark" boblombardix~xxcfl.rr.com Date: Sat Aug 5, 2006 12:17 pm (PDT) > OK, you have a rotary table. How about bolting a 12" square (or a > little larger) plate or disk onto it, put your tube (centered) on > top of that, and then rotate and mark your points. A surface gage > and some prussian blue should take care of that! I almost did that. The tube is a telescope: 12" OD and 5 feet long, so I need to make a rotisserie for it (so to speak). A plug on both ends, bearings to let it rotate on (wood with some cloth or chamois on it) and put one bearing into a chuck on the rotary table. I think I might do this next time, and make a jig that will hold any size tube. But I did the string method that was suggested a couple of messages back. Worked like a champ. Bob W4 Amateur Telescope Maker ------- Math (etc) problem [sherline] Posted by: "Charles Fox" cafox513x~xxgte.net Date: Sat Apr 12, 2008 8:07 pm ((PDT)) I want to mark off a 12th-scale wheel with seven spokes. The 51.4 degrees doesn't bother me . . . But I want to mark off the width of the spokes, therefore two parallel lines equidistant from the center of each 3-1/2" wide spoke. And that goes way beyond anything I've ever tried. If anyone has a step by step I could follow, or could arrange a partial brain transplant, I'd really appreciate it. Charles Fox ------- Re: Math (etc) problem Posted by: "Ian Newman" ian_newx~xxyahoo.com Date: Sun Apr 13, 2008 2:22 am ((PDT)) Hi Charles: At the centre of the wheel scribe a circle with a diameter the same as the spoke width. Scribe a similar circle at the intersect of the spoke centre line and the wheel diameter. The sides of the spoke are formed by the two lines that are parallel tangents to the circles. This assumes there is no taper on the spokes -- if there is, just adjust the appropriate circle diameter. Ian ------- Re: Math (etc) problem Posted by: "a3sigma" dcclark111x~xxcomcast.net Date: Sun Apr 13, 2008 3:42 am ((PDT)) Hi Charles: As Ian pointed out: to layout a line parallel to another, draw equal arcs centered on that line and then draw the line tangent to the arcs. However, how are you going to cut this thing? CNC? Do you have a rotary table? Do you need to solve for the coordinates of the offset endpoints of the lines? Tell me you're not contemplating doing this with a jeweler's saw and a file. More Info = More Answers If you're using an RT see http://www.sherline.com/3700inst.htm If you need coordinates, it's an exercise in linear algebra. You must solve the simultaneous equations of lines and arcs. Or, do what everyone else does these days -- draw it in CAD and dimension the points you need. Even the simplest free CAD program is more than adequate for this sort of thing. For more on layout, see if you can find an old textbook on drafting. In principal, everything in Euclidean Geometry can be derived with straightedge and dividers. Layout is a good skill to have. Many of us still layout out parts in Dykem, especially when using the mill manually. Really helps to eliminate errors in counting turns on the handwheels. Even in CNC, it's a big help in knowing where you can place clamps -- also to rough out parts on the bandsaw. I've been known to cut out a CAD drawing and paste it right onto the workpiece. DC ------- Re: Math (etc) problem Posted by: "Charles Fox" cafox513x~xxgte.net Date: Sun Apr 13, 2008 5:26 am ((PDT)) > However, how are you going to cut this thing? Nope, I'm avoiding sweat. I machined a female mold for two spokes, and have cast up a bunch of them. They will lie between circumference and rim (machined separately). That package will be cast four times for my 12th-scale model of my own car. ------- Re: Math (etc) problem Posted by: "Charles Fox" cafox513x~xxgte.net Date: Sun Apr 13, 2008 5:32 am ((PDT)) > At the centre of the wheel scribe a circle with a > diameter the same as the spoke width. Gadzooks, I think I actually understood this! Thank Audi, there is no taper to the spokes. The angled sides, and the slight tilt from rim to center, were enough for me to sweat over, they figured. By the way, I found a Chinese motorized toy in 1/12 that has an excellent body, and tires, and many details. It's close enough to let me think I can recreate my own car by adding some extras like wheels. ------- Re: Math (etc) problem Posted by: "Jerry Glickstein" chieftoolmakerx~xxearthlink.net Date: Sun Apr 13, 2008 8:37 am ((PDT)) Quick reply. Do you have: 1. A lathe? 2. A mill? 3. A Rotary Table? 4. Paper and Pencil? 5. Patience? What material is the wheel made of? If you have all of the above, I suggest you make a spring loaded scriber ... details available. Jerry G (Glickstein) P.S. Please verify that the spokes are three and a half inches wide. ------- Re: Math (etc) problem Posted by: "Charles Fox" cafox513x~xxgte.net Date: Sun Apr 13, 2008 9:07 am ((PDT)) Got all those things. Yes indeed, the spokes are a non-tapering 3.5" wide. I've drawn up the hint I was given by Ian Newman to make the sides of the spokes parallel, and equidistant from the 51.4 degree (sheesh!) center lines. I've cast the spokes. Have to cut them out and make sure they're all even. I will remachine the wheel, meaning a rim, with backing. The backing tapers inward from rim to center -- the spokes actually are a little knock-kneed. But the dome of sorts at the hub is on the same level as the face of the rim. I think my main stumbler here is drawing on the machined wheel the parallel lines that will show me how to orient the spokes so they're evenly spaced from each other. "Spring-loaded scriber" sounds like it might be what I need, mounted in the mill spindle, and using incredibly complex math to move the table, rotate the rotary table and do the scribing. Will my head hurt after? When the spokes are in, and the hub is in and faired into the spokes, and the lug nut holes are drilled . . . then I will cast this up four times. ------- Drafting and Layout [sherline follow up to Math (etc) problem] Posted by: "a3sigma" dcclark111x~xxcomcast.net Date: Sun Apr 13, 2008 4:42 am ((PDT)) Hello Group: Following up on Charles Fox's question: For practically ever, the best text on drafting has been "Technical Drawing" by Giesecke et.al. Most of it is now available free at http://wps.prenhall.com/esm_giesecke_8/ including some "how to" animations, and all of the illustrations zipped by chapter. For an illustration of the answer to Charles' question and much more on geometric construction, go to: http://wps.prenhall.com/esm_giesecke_8/15/3917/1002956.cw/index.html and download Chapter 4. The current edition, new, is over $100USD. However, Amazon has many used copies of older editions for under $10. (The stuff I'm talking about hasn't changed since Euclid, so the edition doesn't matter.) See also your local college bookstore for used copies. Alongside Machinery's Handbook, this is probably my favorite reference work -- highly recommended. DC ------- Re: Math (etc) problem Posted by: "alenz2002" alenzx~xxbellsouth.net Date: Sun Apr 13, 2008 9:22 pm ((PDT)) > Layout is a good skill to have. Many of us still layout out parts in > Dykem, especially when using the mill manually. Really helps to > eliminate errors in counting turns on the handwheels. Even in CNC, > it's a big help in knowing where you can place clamps -- also to rough > out parts on the bandsaw. I've been known to cut out a CAD drawing > and paste it right onto the workpiece. DC I'll pass on a tip that I learned from a past mistake. Sketch out a layout (a felt tip marker is OK if using CNC) on the face of any stock that is very near square in cross-section. It will keep you from accidentialy clamping the work in the vise 90 deg out and cutting the wrong face. Al ------- Re: Math (etc) problem Posted by: "DA Dossin" danatlx~xxyahoo.com Date: Tue Apr 15, 2008 10:27 am ((PDT)) Charles, look here: http://www.precisionmeasure.com/pg20.pdf Dan ------- Re: Math (etc) problem Posted by: "chieftoolmaker" chieftoolmakerx~xxearthlink.net Date: Mon Apr 14, 2008 2:42 am ((PDT)) Ok, Charles, you can go a couple of ways here. Dykem is recommended. I know you have it, so I did not enumerate it. The spring loaded scriber is cool because it can be used for other layout stuff. I made a great one but for a Cincinnatti Toolmaster Vertical mill, to layout complex cams a mite more involved than your spokes. I made it so it could be preset using "Jo" blocks, and was therefore very accurate. You can make a scaled down version for your mill. Jerry G (Glickstein) P.S. Will your head hurt? Possibly, but you will feel great after you are done....... ------- Re: spring loaded scribe [sherline follow up to Math (etc) problem] Posted by: "n2562001" jlkiefferx~xxcharter.net Date: Tue Apr 15, 2008 3:03 pm ((PDT)) To All: If your Sherline mill is properly adjusted the "Z" axis is sensitive enough to easily adjust a spindle mounted scribe to function without spring loading. (Far less practical on a larger Mill.) This eliminates any inaccuracy from moving parts associated with a spring loaded device. Jerry Kieffer ------- Re: Math (etc) problem Posted by: "geneking2001" geneking2001x~xxyahoo.com Date: Wed Apr 16, 2008 5:30 am ((PDT)) Charles, check out the Machinist's Bedside Reader # 2 by Guy Lautard. This book has the drawing on page 127 of this type of scribe. Presently there are three bedside readers and a fourth one being promised. They sell for about $20 each and in my opinion are well worth the price. His web page: http://lautard.com/ GeneK ------- Re: spring loaded scribe Posted by: "chieftoolmaker" chieftoolmakerx~xxearthlink.net Date: Thu Apr 17, 2008 5:05 am ((PDT)) Mr. Kieffer, what you say is true, to a point! (pun intended) However, my mention of a spring loaded scriber was a direct result of devising one to suit the situation, which was a work surface that was not pristine, nor flat. As far as inaccuracy of moving parts, all contact surfaces of the scriber point plunger were encased in drill jig liner bushings and lapped in. There was a SFNS* as specified by the Bulova Engineering Dept. * = Snug Fit No Shake... Mr. Glickstein ------- NOTE TO FILE: There is an interesting conversation in the "Boring" file with message heading "Locating scribe marks" starting Apr 26, 2008. Despite the title, most of the solutions relate to boring setups and techniques hence the reason the conversation was placed there. However, there are some really good tips about layout and marking on a difficult workpiece that will be useful to anyone. The next thread here arose from that "Boring" file conversation. Be sure to see the layout methods detailed in that "Boring" file. ------- More on locating holes and other features. [sherline] Posted by: "a3sigma" dcclark111x~xxcomcast.net Date: Mon Apr 28, 2008 7:36 am ((PDT)) To expand and generalize a bit on the discussion that started out as locating scribed lines: The basic question, as I understand it, involves creating datums. That is, obtaining a consistent 3D coordinate system on a workpiece that may not have enough accessible features to define a coordinate system. The key to the solution is to secure the work to a fixture that defines a coordinate system. Consider the problem of drilling coaxial holes in opposite ends of an irregularly shaped object, such as a rough cast cylinder. Secure the cylinder in a vee block, mount the vee block on the mill, indicate it square to the machine axes, and locate adjacent sides with an edge finder. Machine the top side, then flip the vee block over. Datum (indicate and edge find) the other side of the vee block and you're back in the same coordinate system. Now you can accurately machine features in their correct relation to those on the other end. Another example involving castings: One of the first projects I did on my home Sherlines was one of PM Research's little mill engines. The plane of the crosshead, mounting plane of the cylinder, and bore of the crankshaft must be very accurately machined in the casting of the engine base. These features must be mutually perpendicular and correctly dimensioned for the engine to run well. There is nothing on a rough casting that is flat, straight, or square enough to provide a good reference datum. The solution was to make the bottom of the base flat on a belt sander; then drill the mounting feet and screw the casting to a squared up piece of tooling plate. The sides of the tooling plate became the datums for every feature on the casting. All dimensions and work planes were related to the surfaces of the plate. I could mount it in any position on the mill to work on any feature from any angle, always knowing where every other feature was relative to the spindle. One more from the same project: the cylinder casting. This I held in the independent 4 jaw chuck. I faced off one end, and machined all the features in that end. I then made a fixture, a short aluminum cylinder, that bolted to the finished end of the casting via the tapped holes for the cylinder head. The fixture also had a tooling hole drilled through it, perpendicular to its axis, to provide a rotational datum. With the finished end of the casting bolted to the fixture, I indicated the fixture back in the 4 jaw chuck. I could then face the other end, transfer the chuck and work piece to the mill, datum the fixture to the mill, and machine all the rest of the features in perfect relation to those on the opposite end. Hoping this helps somebody, sometime, DC ------- Re: More on locating holes and other features. Posted by: "Craig Earls" enderw88x~xxgmail.com Date: Mon Apr 28, 2008 8:09 am ((PDT)) This was very helpful. I will need to change the way I think about designing parts so that this is easier to accomplish. In retrospect the part I am making could just as easily have started off from square stock, which would have provide the data required to locate the holes. Craig http://enderw88.wordpress.com ------- Re: More on locating holes and other features. Posted by: "Marcus" marcusx~xximplant-mechanix.com Date: Mon Apr 28, 2008 9:09 am ((PDT)) Hi All: What a great discussion this has turned out to be. We have a whole pile of different methods described from which anyone who needs this kind of information can now draw. We have a good commentary about what kind of results can be expected, and how important stable reference planes are in getting accurate results. We have the input of skilled, experienced people showing the planning process for these kinds of projects, and Craig, the original poster, has come to an important new insight in project design. Very Cool!!! Cheers Marcus ------- Re: More on locating holes and other features. Posted by: "a3sigma" dcclark111x~xxcomcast.net Date: Mon Apr 28, 2008 9:30 am ((PDT)) Glad I could help. As the redoubtable Jerry K. never tires of pointing out: perhaps the greatest key to success in this trade is thorough planning. I used to tell our apprentices; learn to build it in your mind before you ever touch a piece of metal. It's so easy to paint yourself into a corner. Another thing that surprises many of the newer hands is the amount of time you must spend making tools, jigs, and fixtures. There just ain't no way around it; if you can't hold the part right, you can't machine it right. Ditto if you don't have the right tool -- you've got to find it, or make it, or sometimes invent it. The trick there is to make your tooling as well as you can -- accurate, of good material, using standard dimensions. Over time you'll acquire a great collection of tooling that can be used again and again. One of the sure marks of a really experienced old hand was that no matter how strange a new challenge was thrown at them, they always seemed to be able to dive into their bag of tricks and come up with some gizmo they had created over the years that made the job easy. To my mind, creating these gizmos was often the most fun and interesting part of the job. DC ------- Re: More on locating holes and other features. Posted by: "chieftoolmaker" chieftoolmakerx~xxearthlink.net Date: Mon Apr 28, 2008 1:53 pm ((PDT)) Hi DC: You sure got that right! Best regards, Jerry G (Glickstein) ------- ***** NOTE TO FILE: Following is a rambling conversation in the atlas_craftsman group that goes through several changes of title and was thoroughly fragmented as folks replied to one another. I have organized it here to be as logical and flowing as practicable. TITLES USED IN THIS ONE CONVERSATION all at atlas_craftsman include: labeling metal labeling update: a baby step early success etching aluminum Focus on how to transfer lettering from laser print to metal? Cleaning copper (was: Focus on how to transfer lettering from laser Re: [gingery_machines] Re: labeling metal This also serves as a perfect example as to why sometimes a search done at Yahoo in the archives on a message title (thread) will not give you results with all of the relevant conversations and information. ------- labeling metal [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: "Rick Sparber" rgsparberx~xxaol.com Date: Fri Jul 16, 2010 7:35 am ((PDT)) I was having a discussion on another BBS about the labeling of metal. There are times when a metal stamp is not wanted. We don't all have an engravers plus that can be impractical at times. Going to Office Max for engraved tags is an option but that can get expensive too. My favorite trick is to print mirror image on transparent plastic. Then flip it over and clamp it to the metal. The plastic protects the toner. I suspect that in a high oil environment, oil would quickly seep under the plastic and dissolve the toner. I recall at Gene's engraving meeting how he demonstrated the transfer of toner from paper to metal by dabbing the back of the paper with acetone while pressing the letter to the clean metal. What would be a good cleaner for the metal? What would be a good spray to protect those letters? Are there any types of metal that would be trouble? Another option, suggested by Scott Henion, is to print onto clear Avery labels. They too would benefit from an overspray. Then we have the old standbys of a modern label maker like the P-touch by Brother. Works well for single lines but gets expensive and big if you want to write a lot. Similarly, I have an old label maker with the upset plastic layers. Works well but is rather ugly. I used to have some coils that fit this machine made of thin aluminum. These labels were the only ones that survived the AZ sun. I suspect I could take coil and cut it into strips on a paper cutter to make more such label material. I know that 3M makes a metal duct tape that might work well. A Magic Marker might get the job done if an overspray is used. Just don't expect good looks or thin lines given my level of skill. I also own a vibrating pen type engraver. My lettering with this tool is so bad, I don't even try anymore. Is there a trick to taming this beast? I seem to recall discussion about using photo resist and acid to etch into some metal. If the part is small, I'm sure this would work well. But for large objects, some kind of a dam around the area might be needed. Once the metal has been etched, a contrasting color must still be introduced. A long time ago I bought a set of small plastic letters. The idea was to cast text using molten aluminum and Petrobond sand. Haven't tried it yet but have seen some very nice work with the technique. A variation on the above approach might be to use injected plastic but my plastic letters would not survive the heat. Metal letter would probably be needed. This approach would be better if more than one label was needed. I recall once visiting the newspaper where my Mother was a reporter. They had these massive Linotype machines which took ingots of lead, melted them, then cast them into lines of text. This text was then locked into a frame and used to form printing plates. Cool machine but a bit overkill for my needs. Yet maybe this will trigger an idea from the group. What other options exist? This seems like a good topic both for discussion and for an article. As always, all contributors will be acknowledged. Rick ------- Re: labeling metal Posted by: "Bruce Freeman" freemab222x~xxgmail.com Date: Fri Jul 16, 2010 8:00 am ((PDT)) PC boards can be etched using a xerox as the mask, I understand (but haven't tried myself). The process is to print the mirror-image of the circuit to be etched, invert the paper over the PC board material, iron-on transfer the toner to the copper, then etch with ferric chloride. The main problem I see for using this with metal is the heat-transfer step. The metal might not heat as nicely as the thin copper on a PC board. Then too, ferric chloride might not be an appropriate etchant, and I don't know how toner would stand up to something stronger. Of course, you'd not only have to do a mirror-image, but a negative print, so the letters are etched, not the surrounding metal (unless that's what you want). ------- Re: labeling metal Posted by: "Rick" rgsparberx~xxaol.com Date: Fri Jul 16, 2010 4:55 pm ((PDT)) Bruce, I think this trick can still work but instead of heat transfer, use acetone to release the toner from the paper and have it bond to the metal. I'm just not sure how well it will hold when I am brushing the surface with acid. Maybe more of a gentle flood would be best. Rick ------- Re: labeling metal Posted by: "oldstudentmsgt" wmrmeyersx~xxsbcglobal.net Date: Fri Jul 16, 2010 12:07 pm ((PDT)) Rick, my mother used to work for the Matthews company (exact name uncertain, except the "Matthews" part) in Southern California. They made bronze signs, plaques, and name plates for business, tombstones, etc. She used sheets of beeswax to form letters and figures, pictures of faces, etc., for casting the plaques. I do not know what they used to form the mold, however. I would guess some kind of investment, and a mold board of some sort. Some of the plaques were 3'x4' or larger. Bill in OKC ------- Re: labeling metal Posted by: "Rick" rgsparberx~xxaol.com Date: Fri Jul 16, 2010 5:34 pm ((PDT)) Bill, it sure sounds like an advanced form of lost wax casting to me. Rick ------- Re: labeling metal Posted by: "Mike Nicewonger" twmasterx~xxtwmaster.com Date: Fri Jul 16, 2010 5:05 pm ((PDT)) Paint is cheap and washes off. http://www.frets.com/HomeShopTech/QuickTricks/Paint/paint.html Mike N ------- Re: labeling metal Posted by: "Glenn N" sleykinx~xxcharter.net Date: Fri Jul 16, 2010 10:45 am ((PDT)) There is a system for electro etching that uses a mask that you either write on with a pen or a typewriter and then use a wand with a swab soaked in electrolite connected to electric current source. I have seen them used but it has been a long time. Reminded me of the old mimiograph the way the template/stencil was made. The special paper becomes porous when it gets pressure on it and it lets the electrolite through. Along this line, if you made a negative with a laser printer and then iron it onto the metal it would act as a resist much like etching PCBs. You could then use a swab and coppersulfate to plate copper letters to the metal. From there you could make the letters almost any color. For contrast on my rules I use gun blue on the steel and rub in a gold antiquing paste you get at the hobby shops. Makes for a really beautiful rule with easy to read marks. I intend to explore the electro etching thing further if time ever permits :) Not very good info .. just some ideas to kick about. I am about to start on my Quorn and will be doing a multitude of dials so I will be gaining knowledge soo :) Glenn ------- Re: labeling metal Posted by: "Glenn N" sleykinx~xxcharter.net Date: Sat Jul 17, 2010 2:09 pm ((PDT)) From: "Rick" Sent: Friday, July 16, 2010 5:31 PM > Glenn, You have given me a few great pointers here. I was wondering what would be a good color filler to rub into the etched recesses. One thing that apeals to me about having a stencil is that I can apply it to a curved surface. It can then be used for dials as well as labeling cylinders. Thanks, Rick (via iPod) < Rick, The stuff I use is called "Treasure Gold" and comes in a container about the size and shape of a soft drink bottle cap. I am partial to the "Renaissance Gold" color as it is a bit reddish gold and tends to stand out against the blued steel nicely. I have tried paint and crayon, grease pencil, chalk to fill the holes then paint then knock the chalk out to reveal the steel. The gold rub works the best for me so far. It does take a bit of experimenting to get it to work just right. Mostly how long before you wipe off the excess and what you use. If the rag you use to wipe it off is too soft it will get down and take it out of the letters some. If you wait too long it is really hard to get the excess off. It seems to help to have the metal warm. (10 mins in the sun is about right.) I did the rulers a couple of years ago and it has held up way better than I had imagined. I want to do my lathe dials next but I need to degrease and blue them first and the lathe dosen't seem to want to stop long enough to do that :) I think the stuff would work really well to color the etched surface on polished metal as it would bond nicely to the roughed up etched area and wipe off the polished parts. Glenn ------- Re: labeling metal Posted by: "J Wagstaff" wagstajox~xxkos.net Date: Sat Jul 17, 2010 4:04 am ((PDT)) Check out this link. http://www.etch-o-matic.com/index.html I got one of these kits in a job lot at an auction and it works great. You can label in handwriting, typewriter, or have a custom label made by them. Etches tools etc. in just seconds. ------- Re: labeling metal Posted by: "Chuck Rice" Chuckx~xxWildRice.com Date: Sat Jul 17, 2010 8:13 am ((PDT)) Went searching for this process and found this: http://www.greenart.info/galvetch/semidry.htm It looks like an interesting thing to try. Chuck -------- Re: labeling metal Posted by: "Rick Sparber" rgsparberx~xxaol.com Date: Thu Jul 22, 2010 9:45 am ((PDT)) Chuck, I found some great pointers from this web site. Thanks, Rick ------- Re: labeling metal Posted by: "Glenn N" sleykinx~xxcharter.net Date: Sat Jul 17, 2010 11:41 am ((PDT)) That is a newer version of what I was talking about. The ones I am familiar with didn't use UV for making the stencils though. -------- Re: labeling metal Posted by: "Rick Sparber" rgsparberx~xxaol.com Date: Thu Jul 22, 2010 9:44 am ((PDT)) From my playing around in my shop yesterday, I can see that electro etching doesn't need much. I just wadded up a paper towel soaked with salt water and appled 1 amp to it with the + side on the metal being etched. It took less than 30 seconds to get a decent result. Rick ------- Re: labeling metal Posted by: "Chuck Rice" Chuckx~xxWildRice.com Date: Thu Jul 22, 2010 1:46 pm ((PDT)) > From my playing around in my shop yesterday, I can see that electro > etching doesn't need much. Rick, another suggestion that you might try. After etching, could you use some of the colored powders that powder coaters use? Would it work to just brush the powder into the engraved lines, remove any extra, then heat the part with a heat lamp? You would have to get it to about 400 degrees, but I think that some powder coaters use the lamps instead of ovens. The powder guns use a charge to make the powder stick to the item, but that would not be needed for a flat engraving. Chuck Chuck Rice Near Houston, Tx ------- Re: labeling metal Posted by: "keith altavilla" keithaltavillax~xxyahoo.com Date: Thu Jul 22, 2010 11:54 am ((PDT)) Try one of those draftsman's rulers with the letter outlines. The ones you normally put your pencil into and follow the outline to make perfect block letters. Try that out with your engraver in place of a pencil. ------- Re: labeling metal Posted by: "Rick Sparber" rgsparberx~xxaol.com Date: Thu Jul 22, 2010 12:07 pm ((PDT)) I have used my engraver with these rules. The main problems I have with them are that they look like stenciled letters when done (at best) and the letters are way too big. I much prefer to flexibility I get from a laser printout. Besides, I can, at least in theory, also etch any artwork with this approach. Rick ------- Re: labeling metal Posted by: "keith altavilla" keithaltavillax~xxyahoo.com Date: Thu Jul 22, 2010 12:14 pm ((PDT)) I agree Rick, one has much more flexibility going freehand or using your printing method. Our Forum-mate was asking how to make the etcher, specifically, produce neater letters, and the stencil certainly will do that if one has difficulty otherwise keeping a steady hand. The blocky look of the letters can always be touched up freehand if one doesn't like the 'army footlocker' look. ------- labeling update: a baby step [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: "Rick Sparber" rgsparberx~xxaol.com Date: Sun Jul 18, 2010 1:25 pm ((PDT)) I have read all of the great suggestions and started to experiment. Using an HP laser printer, I put some text on regular paper. Then I cleaned some scrap aluminum strap with aluminum metal cleaner. The text was cut out of the paper and soaked in acetone. I then placed it down on the clean metal and used my heat gun for a few seconds. Not enough to brown the paper but enough that I could see the text showing up through the paper. I then washed the area with water and the paper started to fall apart. A gentle rub and more water got all of the paper off. The letters stuck nicely to the metal but I am sure it could be scraped off with a fingernail. I had tried just acetone but it wasn't enough. I also tried just heat and that didn't work. I have no idea why the two together worked so well but am happy so far. The next step will be to print a negative of some text and repeat the test. If this works, I will begin to play with various etching methods. Keep up the great insights and comments. All of us are smarter than anyone of us! Rick ------- Re: labeling update: a baby step Posted by: "Bruce Freeman" freemab222x~xxgmail.com Date: Sun Jul 18, 2010 6:05 pm ((PDT)) Rick, Very neat. Keep us apprised of your progress. One safety note: A hot-air gun can get hot enough to ignite acetone vapors. I suggest you do that step outside. (In fact, ANY use of acetone is best done outside.) Think of it as holding a match to the same amount of gasoline and take appropriate precautions. Bruce ------- Re: labeling update: a baby step Posted by: "Rick Sparber" rgsparberx~xxaol.com Date: Sun Jul 18, 2010 8:13 pm ((PDT)) Bruce, Thanks for the warning. In hindsight, I was being rather stupid. My shop was at about 110 degrees during my experiment. I suspect that the acetone went to vapor very quickly even without the heat gun. I did have the door open and fans running but it would have been smarter to do it outside. Thanks, Rick ------- Re: labeling update: a baby step Posted by: "Bruce Freeman" freemab222x~xxgmail.com Date: Tue Jul 20, 2010 10:32 am ((PDT)) Rick. Well, you emerged unscathed, and that's the important part. Acetone can be set off by a tiny spark - like from switching on a light switch. Very useful stuff, but worth treating with respect. Bruce ------- early success etching aluminum [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: "Rick Sparber" rgsparberx~xxaol.com Date: Tue Jul 20, 2010 2:57 pm ((PDT)) Maybe it is just beginners luck, but my first try at electro etching aluminum came out great. I'm still trying out colors to improve the contrast but will write up what I know today. Thanks to all that have helped me with this journey so far. Rick ------- Re: early success etching aluminum Posted by: "wheezer" wheezer606x~xxverizon.net Date: Tue Jul 20, 2010 7:43 pm ((PDT)) Rick, There is a great group for anodizing aluminum. It's not tooo difficult, but fussy. Results are brilliant. Look here: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/anodizing101/ http://yhoo.it/cSoYqo lance ------- [atlas_craftsman] Focus on how to transfer lettering from laser print to metal? Posted by: "Richard Schaal" rschaal_95135x~xxyahoo.com Date: Wed Jul 21, 2010 12:23 pm ((PDT)) I've seen a couple of submissions discussing transferrance of laser output -- perhaps on transparent media to metal. Now, Laser toner is basically micro-fine plastic that gets deposited by electric charge and melted by the fuser to make the image on the transparent or regular paper media. Now, how is it that you're planning on transferring the print to another surface? I understand the printing in mirror image, but is there really enough on the page to transfer reliably? I have a heat gun, and ready to melt, but this really works? Educate me! I'm eager to learn about this one! Thanks, Richard ------- Re: Focus on how to transfer lettering from laser print to metal? Posted by: "shuckersfan" shuckersfanx~xxyahoo.com Date: Wed Jul 21, 2010 2:09 pm ((PDT)) This technique is used by some hobbyist electronics folks. Use high gloss paper and the toner will tend to build up on the surface instead of soaking in. You can also use printed circuit board transfer film. Try http://www.techniks.com for their transfer film. Todd ------- Re: Focus on how to transfer lettering from laser print to metal? Posted by: "scubanarc" scubanarcx~xxgmail.com Date: Wed Jul 21, 2010 2:26 pm ((PDT)) I have done toner transfer to copper clad circuit boards many times with my HP 1100 LaserJet printer, followed by an acid etch. It works very well and the transfer is nearly 100% and very crisp and readable. The challenge is getting the circuit board hot enough to remelt the toner but not so hot that you squish it flat and distort the lines. The paper that you print on makes all the difference in the world. Many people use high gloss pages out of magazines. They just seem to jam up in my printer. I use Staples brand high gloss inkjet photo paper. You are not supposed to run it in a laser printer but it seems to work fine. The high gloss releases the toner nicely. After transfer I usually peel the paper off, then soak with water for a few hours to get the rest of the paper off. The toner is usually stuck so well that I can scrape it with my finger nail as hard as I can and it will not come off. I do my transfer with a household iron. It takes almost as much pressure as I can put on it with my arms. Some people use a hot laminating roller, but that will not work for transferring to machines. jason ------- Re: Focus on how to transfer lettering from laser print to metal? Posted by: "Rick Sparber" rgsparberx~xxaol.com Date: Thu Jul 22, 2010 11:34 am ((PDT)) Jason, I have the same printer so your experience is particularly welcome. My biggest concern about using anything but approved types of paper is the potential to damage my printer. However, I just printed to some "HP Premium Photo Paper, glossy" and it looks good. So now I have print to regular paper, magazine paper, and fancy glossy paper. Should be a good test. Stay tuned.... Rick ------- Re: Focus on how to transfer lettering from laser print to metal? Posted by: "Jon Elson" elsonx~xxpico-systems.com Date: Wed Jul 21, 2010 7:05 pm ((PDT)) The toner contains carbon black (the pigment), iron dust (so magnets can control application with rollers with magnets inside) and wax. If you press a copy against a patterned surface, like paper, and melt the wax, you will get some of the toner to transfer. One problem is that various solvents will affect the wax over time. If you've ever left photocopies or laser printer output in a plastic 3-ring binder for some time, you will see the toner will start sticking to the back of the next sheet and otherwise migrating. So, I have a feeling that machine oils will adversely affect the toner. Jon ------- Re: Focus on how to transfer lettering from laser print to metal? Posted by: "Michael Michalski" pflatlynex~xxyahoo.com Date: Wed Jul 21, 2010 8:43 pm ((PDT)) I use laser printers to make circuit boards. Some all or none of this may be useful depending on what your actually trying to do. Ill give you all the details so you can determine if there is anything you can use. What I have done is take two 5/8" pieces of aluminum and drill holes in the corners (this was done on a CNC mill when I had access but a drill press should be fine, just clamp the two pieces tightly together so you get all the holes lined up.) On one side I pressed 2"x1/4-20 bolts into the holes (they have a smooth part that works nicely for that, obviously the holes were drilled a little undersized for the shoulders of the bolts). The other side has holes that will clear the 1/4-20 threads. I also have four small pins, about 2mm in diameter, placed around the lower plate (the one with the bolts pressed into it) and matching holes in the top for them to go into so the two sides fit together. These holes in the top are about 3mm to easily clear the pins. (I don't remember the exact sizes, I'm sure they were standard, but I think in metric.) On each side, I glue a sheet of cork gasket material that I purchased from the auto parts store using a high temperature gasket sealer. I then print out a circuit board from the cad program. I make it with four little dots on it at the spacing of the four small pins to align everything. Invariably, it won't fit, because laser printer outputs vary in actual printed width and high, not just between units, but between prints as things heat up and cool down and such. I adjust the size of the printout from the printer driver until I get it as close of a fit as I can, then place a piece of double sided copper clad fiberglass circuit board that has had four holes drilled for the pins. (All this is necessary because I want double sided boards.) I then print the other side, fiddle with it until it's the right size, punch out the holes and place it over the board. Finally, I place the top metal plate on, and then use wing nuts (with washers) to tighten it down, making sure to tighten each corner incrementally to avoid warping the plate. I avoid tightening it too much becuase it could warp the plates, and it will cause the toner to spread out and make the traces thicker. Once I have done that, I bake it in the oven at about 250-300 degrees F (depends on the toner/printer as to what temp works best). Make sure to clean the copper really good. I use fine sandpaper followed by a bath of hot soap, acetone and isopropyl alchohol to get the board REALLY clean. Start with hot water in a heavy metal pan, then take it of the heat and add the flammables. DO NOT TRY TO HEAT OR BOIL THE SOLUTION WITH THE ACETONE, if it finds an ignition source you will regret it. Also make sure the copper board is completely dry afterward. If it works right, you will now have the paper stuck to the board. Soak it in water for a few hours until the paper degrades. The kind of spray on oven cleaner with lye can help too. Once the paper is soft, you can carefully peel it off, then rub off what paper remains very gently with your thumb with plenty of water. (Wear rubber gloves when doing this, or you will get oils from your hand on the copper.) Once that's done, you can etch it in your choice of etchant. (I have used ammonium perchlorate and ferric chloride with equal results, but the key to good etching is having a good etching tank setup and my design for that would be as much as I've written here.) One thing that may go wrong at first is the pattern may be smeared. Too little heat and the pattern may not adhere to the copper surface. You may also end up with tiny voids in the pattern. Too much, and the pattern smears out and you lose the fine detail. When you get it just right, the toner flows enough to fill the voids, but not enough to lose the fine detail. Another thing is some printers don't really put out enough toner on the page. Really old printers used so much you could feel the raised letters on the page (Laserjet I and II for instance). The nice thing about a lot of HP Laserjets office printers (like the 5M, 5si, 4M, III+ etc.) is that there is a setting in the printers control panel -- settings to set the toner density. Set it to maximum if you have such a setting. One thing that makes a big difference is the paper you use. There are several options. Some cheaper (or older) types of ink jet paper have a gelatin emulsion on the surface. It gets slimy when you get it wet, and if you soak it long enough it will dissolve and leave the toner behind on the surface. This stuff is great, but some have a plasticised backing so the water doesn't get through (this does not work well at all). A similar kind has a clay surface. It does not work as well as the gelatin, but some kinds work ok. Plain copier/printer paper works ok. The cheaper the better. If it has recycled content, all the better. Recycled paper has shorter fibers and less strength. The cheap relatively thin brown recycled paper is one of the better choices. It all but falls apart when wet, but some printers wont feed it well. There is also a special paper sold specifically FOR making boards like this. It's very similar to the gelatin emulsion ink jet paper, but optimized a little more toward transferring patterns and etching copper. I've tried it a couple of times, but it costs $1-2 a sheet (at least it did 10 years ago). It takes enough fiddling to get the parameters right for a particular kind of paper and a particular printer that I never really figured out exactly what time and temperature were needed to make it work well (or really if it would work well at all). One time I had access to a color Laserjet 5. I printed out the board pattern, then I made colored solder masks and markings where the components went. I really went all out on that project. I'm not sure it was worth the work, but the results turned out really cool. It didn't look manufactured, you could tell someone made it in their kitchen, but it looked damn good. One thing to remmember is that the pattern you get from the toner transfer is delicate. It will rub off with any sort of minimal effort (the board with the color printer worked because it was a fiberglass surface roughed up with sandpaper and it bonded to it, and it wasn't expected to take any sort of punishment anyway). It is also quite vulnerable to any sort of solvent. Acetone takes it right off. One application that I have always had in mind is to use it for the markings on a aluminum control panel on a chassis of some piece of equipment. I've never actually tried this, but my thought was that I would transfer the pattern to a piece of aluminum that had been roughed up a little with some fine sandpaper. (Have to do it right so it looks nice, rather than all random.) The fine scratches and crevices would give the toner a little bit more to grab onto. I would then coat the panel with some sort of spray on clear coat. My concern is that the coat would dissolve the toner and make the markings blur and run, but if that happens it might help to apply the lightest of coats (so it's more a distribution of fine droplets that don't even run together) a few times, letting it dry between before putting on an even smooth coat. The long and the short of my experience has been, it works reasonably well to put a resist on a surface and then etch the uncovered portions. It's tricky to get it to work, but once you do it works ok. If your application is artistic instead of electronic, then it will work even better as a few tiny defects that can only be seen under a magnifying glass can ruin a circuit board but may be perfectly acceptable in an artistic project. The durability of the toner by itself though is very much lacking and if the pattern itself is the desired end, you will have to protect it somehow. ------- Re: Focus on how to transfer lettering from laser print to metal? Posted by: "James Irwin" jirwin1x~xxaustin.rr.com Date: Thu Jul 22, 2010 10:48 am ((PDT)) Cool description for an interesting process for making copper printed circuit boards. However, this thread got started over how to put readable numbers and tic marks on a cylindrical steel surface, like a knob on an Atlas/Craftsman lathe... Different problem. Jim I ------- Re: Focus on how to transfer lettering from laser print to metal? Posted by: "oldstudentmsgt" wmrmeyersx~xxsbcglobal.net Date: Fri Jul 23, 2010 8:33 am ((PDT)) Not necessarily, Jim. The more ways you know to accomplish something, the more options you have to actually do it. For example, say Rick needs a bunch of graduated knobs for something. He could individually hand-engrave each of them, or make a mold, engrave it (by any of several methods, including electro-etching) and injection-mold however many knobs he needed. He could also build an indexing engraving machine, a universal pantograph, or a cnc mill. Any of these approaches would likely work for his purposes. Or all of them. It just depends on what he has available. If he needs a dozen of those knobs tomorrow, his injection molding machine would seem like the way to go, since he doesn't have CNC,or much interest in it. If you had CNC, it would be a better option for you than building an injection molding machine. See what I mean? NO wrong answers, only ones that are better for one person than for another with different resources. I may be something of a pedant on this idea. I've been in three different career fields in the USAF, and found at least something I learned in one of them useful in the others. Aircraft mechanic on F-111D's, photographer, and SATCOM tech. Since then, teacher, produce clerk, telephone tech support for AOL, tire and lube tech, etc. I've been retired from the USAF for half as long as I served, and never found anything that I learned to be useless. Even though a lot of it is now obsolete. Wet-chemical photo- processing, for instance. Digital is SO much easier. ;) Not to mention a strong DIY bent. Bill in OKC ------- Re: Focus on how to transfer lettering from laser print to metal? Posted by: "Rick Sparber" rgsparberx~xxaol.com Date: Thu Jul 22, 2010 11:04 am ((PDT)) > One would have to print dark and bold to deposit enough toner to transfer a usable image to metal. Heat gun? I sort of doubt it. Flat iron? Maybe. I see lots of experimenting going on and doubtfully satisfactory results. I sort of like the reverse print on plastic film idea, though...probably backed with bright white plastic film or paper. Jim I < Jim, I might need to increase the amount of toner to get complete coverage but my first trials went well. Heat gun? Well, it worked for me. If I was limiting myself to flat surfaces, then a flat iron would be fine. But my goal is to be able to etch dials and a flat iron would be tricky. I am considering a heated roller. As for "doubtfully satisfactory results", maybe so. When the article comes out you can judge for yourself. Rick ------- Re: Focus on how to transfer lettering from laser print to metal? Posted by: "James Irwin" jirwin1x~xxaustin.rr.com Date: Thu Jul 22, 2010 11:18 am ((PDT)) Great! I look forward to the article! I was thinking one could wrap the dial, then roll it dial across a hot flat iron pretty easily. AND I was thinking you wanted to put letters made of toner on the dial, not that you were wanting to reverse polarity to make an etch mask, then etch the numbers, etc. into the steel. Thanks! Jim I ------- Re: Focus on how to transfer lettering from laser print to metal? Posted by: "Michael Michalski" pflatlynex~xxyahoo.com Date: Thu Jul 22, 2010 11:21 pm ((PDT)) My first instinct would be to take a piece of tubing and cut a slit in the side. Then cut a piece of cork to fit inside that. Wrap your paper with the printout around the dial. Then wrap the cork tightly around that, a little scotch tape might help keep it in place, or better yet, electrical tape since it's stretchy. Now slide the metal sleeve over that and clamp it in place with a worm drive hose clamp. Bake the whole thing in the oven and the image should be transferred. If you make your dials out of copper or perhaps brass, you can make your pattern a negative of the markings you want, then paint the ends you don't want to etch,and the hole for the shaft with nail polish (be careful,i think it might dissolve toner) and then etch it in ferric chloride or ammonium persulfate. Another thing you could try is putting that same negative image on a steel knob. Then wipe on some Brownells cold blue liquid. (I like the Brownells, I tried other brands but they don't work well.) You could also use a parkerizing solution. Once you're done, clean the parts with acetone. You should now have nice dark marks on nice bright steel. I'm leaning towards the etching though. Besides, copper knobs with etched markings would look awesome. ------- Re: Focus on how to transfer lettering from laser print to metal? Posted by: "Ron" ronlu124x~xxkc.rr.com Date: Thu Jul 22, 2010 11:57 am ((PDT)) I use the toner method to etch copper clad circuit boards. I print a mirror image on a slick shiny piece of paper from newspaper inserts or old magazine pages. I then use a clothes iron set on highest temp and iron the image to it for a few minutes and let it cool. After it has cooled down I soak it in water to remove the paper while rubbing lightly with fingers. If there are any missed spots they can be touched up with a sharpie marker. Then I etch the board. Ron Kansas City Mo. ------- Re: Focus on how to transfer lettering from laser print to metal? Posted by: "Starlight Tool Services Ltd" starlight_toolsx~xxtelus.net Date: Thu Jul 22, 2010 11:20 am ((PDT)) In the group photos for the 9x20Lathe2 group there is a neat rig that Captain Leeward has showing a punch holder that is rigged up for just that purpose, marking dials etc. 9x20Lathe2-subscribex~xxyahoogroups.com Walter ------- Re: Focus on how to transfer lettering from laser print to metal? Posted by: "Rick Sparber" rgsparberx~xxaol.com Date: Thu Jul 22, 2010 12:04 pm ((PDT)) Walter, I have seen such holders before. They are my main motivator to find a simpler method. With skill, the punched dials are works of art. The ones I make are awful. Rick ------- Re: Focus on how to transfer lettering from laser print to metal? Posted by: "Michael Michalski" pflatlynex~xxyahoo.com Date: Thu Jul 22, 2010 11:30 pm ((PDT)) I'm still setting up a place to work after I moved, but once I'm all set up in a month or so there is a project I'm going to do, and I'll try to take some pictures. Some of my equipment, like the etching tank I tossed when I moved. (I moved from Ohio to Utah.) There were signifigant flaws with the design that I will fix when I rebuild it. It was made with pvc pipe in a plastic tank I made from scrap plastic. It had a aquarium style power head in the bottom that pumped etchant up to the top where it sprayed out of these little plastic garden sprinkler heads that are made to screw into holes in pvc pipe. Those of course were set to spray etchant solution onto both sides of the board while it was suspended from a piece of insulated (to keep it from being etched away) wire from the top. An aquarium heater kept the etchant warm. It could etch a board in about 5-10 minutes. This is important because uneven etching leads to undercutting of the edges of the parts where it's already etched; and long etching times leads to a degradation of the etch resist which leads to voids and gaps. ------- [atlas_craftsman] Cleaning copper (was: Focus on how to transfer lettering from laser Posted by: "Bruce Freeman" freemab222x~xxgmail.com Date: Thu Jul 22, 2010 7:44 am ((PDT)) On Wed, Jul 21, Michael Michalski wrote: > Make sure to clean the copper really good. I use fine sand paper followed by a bath of hot soap, acetone and isopropyl alchohol to get the board REALLY clean. Michael, Thank you very much for this thorough description of the transfer process you use. I've been meaning to try this for years, but have never been sufficiently motivated. One note that might be of interest: There might be a safer and more convenient way to clean the copper. I've done this a lot on copper bowls and other kitchenware, but never on a PC board, so take that as a caveat. PROCEDURE: Dissolve one or two tablespoons of table salt (with or without iodide - it doesn't matter) in about 1 cup of white (distilled) vinegar and add a few drops of liquid detergent - dishwashing liquid or laundry detergent. (If you have a choice, avoid scented detergents, but it probaby doesn't matter, and the exact proportions don't matter.) Simply wash the copper surface with this solution. You can use a nylon dish brush or a cotton rag. If the solution does not easily "wet" the surface (i.e., it tends to build up), then add more detergent or start with a wash of hot water and detergent to remove surface oils. When the copper is clean and bright, quickly dry it with a soft cotton rag or towel and let it air dry (or use a hair dryer to speed that up). Droplets left on the surface will quickly cause tarnish to form at those points. Don't touch the surface again, because you'll leave oily fingerprints. RESULT: If this works properly, you'll be left with a chemically clean surface which is *not *perfectly and shiny, but is pink in color - I kid you not! That's normal. If you buffed it, it would quickly become shiny copper- colored. But don't buff it (if it's a PC board) because the micro- scopically rough surface will probably not only help the laser jet toner adhere, but also, in the subsequent process, help the acid etch the unmasked copper. CAVEATS: In all the above, I'm assuming the original copper is bare and tarnished, and has no varnish or other coating on it, nor has more than light oil (e.g., fingerprints) on it. If that's not true, you'll have to deal with those issues separately. The procedure I describe is great for removal of copper tarnish, and will not etch the copper metal at all. It is completely safe, as it uses only materials available in your kitchen. If you use flammable solvents, like acetone, for this cleaning, PLEASE do so outside and away from sources of ignition - flames, grills, welders, electrical sparks, etc. Transfer the smallest useful quantity of solvent into an open vessel (so you don't inadvertently make a bomb), then re-cap the solvent container before continuing. Use the smallest useful swab or cloth to apply the solvent to the work. These precautions will help you avoid fires, burns, and explosions. Unless you've been thoroughly indoctrinated in the safe use of such solvents, it's VERY easy to forget just how dangerous they are. There's a case on record of a scientist, working with acetone in a lab hood, switching on an electric fan and thereby igniting the acetone and burning himself severely. I knew a scientist who worked with hazards worse than that every day in the lab, then went home and was working with gasoline on his car, and the fumes ignited from his water heater and gave him a nasty burn on his hand and arm, and "trimmed" his hair in the bargain. You are NOT smarter than these folks, so please be more safety conscious! I really hate reading obituaries of people I was "conversing" with the previous week! (I take this to heart because I'm a chemist and HAVE had the safety indoctrinations, so I try to share this info when I can. By the way: NEVER put chemicals (acids, lye, solvents, etc.) in "food" containers -- including kitchen dishes. (Nor should you use anything BUT food containers for food.) The reason for this is that someone might mistake toxics for food. I know of a case of a person who set down a dark-colored solution of cyanide in a beaker near a coffee pot. Unfortunately, these personnel were in the habit of using beakers as coffee cups (another no-no) and someone picked up the beaker and drank the contents without tasting it -- and was horribly dead in a couple minutes! (Cyanide kills hideously.) "TOXIC" WASTE: The blue vinegar solution that you're left with is mildly poisonous. Don't eat it. Keep it away from food, children and pets. That said, you can buy the copper salt for killing algae, etc., at Home Depot, so let's not get carried away. If you're troubled by algae, or lichen growing on roofs, etc., this makes a great herbicide for those plants (AND is "organic"! Not in the chemical sense, of course). Again, don't put it anywhere that animals can eat or drink it. Running it down the drain is also acceptable, unless you have a septic system in which case it may be either good (because copper is a nutrient) or bad (because it's a poison). Okay, so it seems I was in a rambling mood this morning. I apologize for being long-winded. ------- Re: Cleaning copper (was: Focus on how to transfer lettering from la Posted by: "Michael Michalski" pflatlynex~xxyahoo.com Date: Thu Jul 22, 2010 11:26 pm ((PDT)) That pinkish color is not suprising at all. In fact,you get that color when you etch copper in ferric chloride. I like your cleaning and Ith ink you're right about the pitted surface helping. I will have to try that. What I used was a very crude approximation of a cleaner I saw used industrially. I have to say the real stuff worked vastly better. Must have been the "Proprietary ingredients" on the msds. ------- Re: Cleaning copper (was: Focus on how to transfer lettering from la Posted by: "oldstudentmsgt" wmrmeyersx~xxsbcglobal.net Date: Fri Jul 23, 2010 8:07 am ((PDT)) Lemon juice will work, also. Mix with table salt as Bruce described. I'm pretty sure vinegar is cheaper, but what each of us has sitting around varies. I suspect any mild (or dilute) acid would work as well. Bill in OKC ------- Re: Cleaning copper (was: Focus on how to transfer lettering from la Posted by: "Jay Greer" redwitch1x~xxearthlink.net Date: Tue Jul 27, 2010 1:05 am ((PDT)) A real whiz bang product that we use with boat parts is Wright's Copper Cleaner. http://www.uclean.com/catalog/productInfo/chem icals/polishes/wright_s_copper_polish.html Of all the polishes we have used in the past, this one is truly amazing. Jay Greer Boat Builder ------- [but posted at atlas_craftsman also] Re: [gingery_machines] Re: labeling metal Posted by: "Rick Sparber" rgsparberx~xxaol.com Date: Fri Jul 23, 2010 9:39 am ((PDT)) Original Message----- From: gingery_machinesx~xxyahoogroups.com [mailto:gingery_machinesx~xxyahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of oldstudentmsgt Sent: Friday, July 23, 2010 8:54 AM To: gingery_machinesx~xxyahoogroups.com Subject: [gingery_machines] Re: labeling metal > Yeah, yeah, you say that now! I've been waiting for DAYS for that article! ;) On the other hand, I have no shortage of wallwarts here. ;) Bill in OKC < Bill, I am sorry about the delay ;-) To make it up to you, I have included a few things I've found out on this journey. I'm having trouble finding a coloring that brings out the etching enough to be believable in a picture. Working on it as we speak. I just tried almond colored appliance paint and am waiting for it to dry. My selection of nail polish is a bit on the stiff side. I'll have to break down and buy more. I know there are many really nice dyes for metal but I'm trying to stick with materials I have on hand. I have discovered a few things that might very well have been mentioned in a previous post. First of all, just blotting the back of regular paper with acetone with the toner pressed on the metal seems to be good enough to transfer the toner. No need for heat. I then discovered that I can do the electro etch right through the paper so no need to rub it off and risk damage to the toner. I have also learned that my HP laser printer has two modes - 600 DPI and 1200 DPI. 1200 DPI makes much stronger artwork that holds up better during etching. Since I am electro etching, it is easy to stop and start the process. So every 15 to 30 seconds I lift the pad and inspect for breakdown of the mask. A spray of water helps clear away the crud. Then there were the tricks with Word. I finally figured out how to get masks out of it and even distort the text into arcs etc if I want. Full control of font, size, etc. To save on toner, I mask the area with electrical tape so my masks are just a little beyond the artwork. I have joined the anodizing yahoo group but have not visited yet. I'm hoping to find a way to etch the aluminum and color it all at the same time. Might be wishful thinking but sure would be cool if possible. Rick ------- NOTE TO FILE: Some of the folks in this last conversation carried on experimenting with etching metal. There is a great deal more authoritative information on etching tips and techniques elsewhere on the web. Do some web searches on terms like "intaglio" and "intaglio printing" and "printmaking" to see the vast store of etching information gathered by artists and printmakers. You will also see alternatives to etching. ------- Re: ? about index marks. [sherline] Posted by: "n2562001" jlkiefferx~xxcharter.net Date: Sun Aug 22, 2010 3:53 pm ((PDT)) Bert Harless wrote: > I would like to make index marks on the edge of an aluminum disk about 3 " in diameter and about a 1/2" thick. They would need to be every 2 degrees. It's for a telescope and needs to be pretty accurate. I have a rotary table so getting the degrees right shouldn't be a problem, but I'm not sure of the best way to make the marks. I've thought of using a thin slitting saw or using a stamp or a punch. It also needs to have numbers stamped every 10 degrees. It seems the punch method would need a jig to hold the punch. Here is a picture of what I'm trying to replace. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sherline/photos/album/1319779044/pi c/410533049/view?picmode=&mode=tn&order=ordinal&start=1&count=20&dir=asc Any ideas? Bert < Bert: Sorry I am late on this. I have been at a couple of Gas and Steam shows in the last week. For myself Personally, the most accurate and controllable method of cutting indicator marks has been with a Endmill. When measured, most indicator marks seem to be between .010" and .015" wide. Sherline's for example are about .012" give or take a little. Endmills are of course available in all sizes down to .001". This in turn allows you to have whatever width you desire. I found that most cutters other than endmills can give an inconsistent width appearance and are hard to control. Any slight inconsistency in depth can change the line width making the whole thing look like mess. With an endmill you can change the depth any time to compensate for whatever without changing the line appearance. I will post a quicky very close example photo under my name. It is of a very basic watch movement balance cock regulator scale that I am building for training purposes. The scale was done with a .007" endmill at full speed in the Sherline Mill. I generally run the endmills at a depth equal to about half the diameter of the endmill used. No final finish has been applied to any of the parts in the photo including the scale. It is as it came off of the Mill. I generally apply numbers and letters using small stamps in the Mill. Stamps are generally available down to 1/32" and from time to time smaller. They are used In a Mill because of the ability to accurately position and or space next to each other. They are used in the Mill as follows. First, a self centering four jaw chuck is installed on the spindle along with a stamp in the chuck, finger tight. Next the spindle is rotated until the stamp is in the desired postion. A small wood wedge is then driven under the drive pulley to lock it in position. From this point the slides and or a rotary table are used to position the stamp on the work piece. A short rod is then dropped down the spindle against the stamp. A hammer can then be used to tap the top of the rod producing the the number or letter in the work piece. The next number or letter is then installed in the chuck and positioned as required. The slides and rotary table make highly accurate straight lines, spacings and positioning a snap. Jerry Kieffer ------- Re: ? about index marks. Posted by: "n2562001" jlkiefferx~xxcharter.net Date: Mon Aug 23, 2010 9:16 pm ((PDT)) "Ken Condal" wrote: > Jerry, > Your work is a true inspiration. Thanks for this very informative post. > I've never been able to find the type of tiny endmills you're referring > to. Can you recommend a source for them? Thanks, Ken Ken: Small endmills can be purchased from any of the major Machine tool supply houses such as MSC, Travers Etc. Another example can be seen in the following link: http://www.pmtnow.com/end_mills/tools/TS-2.asp I would suggest stub length for this type work. Jerry Kieffer ------- Re: ? about index marks. Posted by: "n2562001" jlkiefferx~xxcharter.net Date: Tue Aug 24, 2010 5:09 am ((PDT)) Ian Newman wrote: > Hi, I would not use the X-Y table of my mill as an anvil to support > work while you hit letter stamps onto the work with a hammer. Ian. > PS - must go back to work, I'm in the middle of doing some riveting > on my surface plate..... Ian: I would have to respectfully disagree. Any Mill/rotary table not strong enough to support the light tapping of a small number/letter stamp, would be pretty much useless. Or at least to me personally. My Sherline Mills have endured Far Far greater punishment for over the last ten years or so with no ill effects. If they could not, I would not own them. Jerry Kieffer ------- recommendations on layout fluid. [sherline] Posted by: "Chuck Johnston Jr." crjx~xxfrii.com Date: Sun Sep 12, 2010 9:52 am ((PDT)) Any recommendations on a good layout fluid? I have been using Dykems steel ink but the damn blue has faded in the container and Dykems refuses to do anything about replacing it. It is about 1/4 as dark as it was when I opened the container a year or so ago. I can hardly see the scribed lines from my height gauge. What about Starrett layout ink? Is it any good? Any other recommendations? I will not buy Dykems any more because of the way they handled this problem...not impressed with their customer service. Chuck Johnston ------- Re: recommendations on layout fluid. Posted by: "Kevin Martin" kpmartinx~xxthinkage.ca Date: Sun Sep 12, 2010 6:55 pm ((PDT)) I had the same thing happen. At first I thought it was just my memory playing tricks on me (gee, I thought this stuff used to be darker) but eventually it got so pale that I knew something was wrong. This time I tried the Dykem black layout fluid. In 10 years or so I'll be able to tell if it fades, but I think the pigment is carbon black, which is pretty much permanent. Kevin Martin ------- Re: recommendations on layout fluid. Posted by: "Pierre Coueffin" pcoueffinx~xxgmail.com Date: Sun Sep 12, 2010 5:26 pm ((PDT)) I routinely use sharpie markers if I don't want to clean up the mess from the can of spray on layout fluid. It is easy to apply, and takes scribed lines well. Better than the layout fluid actually. I find the layout fluid flakes off if you don't get the coating even. ------- Re: recommendations on layout fluid. Posted by: "Thayer Syme" thayerx~xxgryffinaero.com Date: Sun Sep 12, 2010 5:37 pm ((PDT)) And another vote for Sharpies. Not half an hour ago I laid on a bunch of red sharpie ink and started cutting. I have a felt topped bottle of Dykem blue, but it is much more difficult to get the thoughtless coverage the Sharpie offers. Thayer ------- Stamping Numbers and Letters [sherline] Posted by: "n2562001" jlkiefferx~xxcharter.net Date: Thu Feb 24, 2011 8:59 am ((PST)) Occasionally I have a need to stamp a smaller project with numbers and words in a professional looking manner. While there are special presses and stamps made for this type work, they are very expensive and generally limited to straight lines. In the past I have also hired this work done, but it was also expensive, time consuming and with mixed results. Of course attempts have been made to free hand stamp with readily available hand stamps. I doubt I have to explain the results of free hand stamping in regard to straight lines and even letter/number spacing to anyone who has tried. In case anyone also has this need, I thought I would pass along a method I use that for the most part covers my needs. Rather than purchase expensive presses designed for this work, I use a Sherline Mill as follows. First, the work piece to be stamped is mounted in the mill vise or to the bed or however. Second, a four jaw self centering chuck is mounted on the mill spindle. A square stamp is then mounted in the chuck finger tight. Third, the spindle is then rotated until the stamp is square to the slide movements and the spindle is locked in place. In the beginning, I used a wood wedge under the spindle pully to lock in place. Since I use a locked spindle for several other purposes, I drilled two holes in the pulley and threaded for a locking screw. I will post a photo of the spindle lock under my name. Fourth, a 6.500"x 13/32" rod is inserted in the spindle bore so that the stamp in the chuck can be tapped from the top side of the spindle. Fifth, Once the first letter or number has been stamped, the slides can be moved for correct spacing of the next figure to be stamped. The use of the slides will assure straight lines and handwheel settings will assure proper spacings. With the work piece mounted on a rotary table, proper arcs and spacings are also possible. I will also post a photo of a sample staight line and arc under my name. Once stamping is complete, the stampings can can be surface sanded to change number/letter appearance if desired. In the example photo the straight line was heavely sanded on the left side and lightly sanded on the right. The arc was not sanded. Stampings can also be lightly bead blasted for even another appearance variation not shown. For Sherline size projects, figures are normally limited to 3/32" or smaller. One caution: Hand Stamps made in China and India DO NOT work well with this procedure. The figures are not all the same size nor are they generally centered in the stamp. When stamped in a straight line or arc this stands out like a sore thumb. If they are hard enough to stamp at all. Jerry Kieffer ------- Re: Stamping Numbers and Letters Posted by: "Steve Wan" stewanx~xxgmail.com Date: Thu Feb 24, 2011 8:45 pm ((PST)) Hi Jerry Kieffer Thanks for the tips of using Sherline mill as a jig for letter/number punching. Never thought of it earlier! BTW is it possible to use this method on a round surface like handwheel dials? Using a rotary/indexing table? Steve-S'pore ------- Re: Stamping Numbers and Letters Posted by: "n2562001" jlkiefferx~xxcharter.net Date: Fri Feb 25, 2011 7:23 am ((PST)) Steve: You can stamp on any type surface that will accept a stamp mark. It works exceptionally well for items like Handwheel dials. When doing this I first machine the calibration marks with a small endmill or engraving tool. Using the same setup, the numbers are then stamped assuring that they will be properly located in relation to the calibration marks. Jerry Kieffer ------- Re: Stamping Numbers and Letters Posted by: "Alan" alanhyx~xxlive.com Date: Fri Feb 25, 2011 8:05 am ((PST)) Jerry: Is that rod heavy enough that you can just drop it a fixed distance onto the punch? I'd think that would be the best way to get very uniform punch depths. Although come to think of it a I and an X or M (or a 1 and a 0) need different forces. Also, when doing numbers on the surface of a cylinder, it would seem worthwhile to jack up the underside to avoid some pounding on the rotary table innards. Do you use a mandrel with blocking for edge numbering? Alan ------- Re: Stamping Numbers and Letters Posted by: "n2562001" jlkiefferx~xxcharter.net Date: Fri Feb 25, 2011 9:23 am ((PST)) Alan: You are correct in that some figures require a little more or little less force than others. Personally, I use a single blow and mentally adjust to what I feel is required generally without issues. However, the nice thing about this system, is that with the use of handwheel settings you can go back and adjust a figure without the fear of double stamping or screwing it up. When setting up a work piece for stamping or whatever, you need to do it in a manner that will secure it for what you are doing. If a work piece requires support other than tool mounting such as a center, it will probably move under machining or stamping operations. For example, if using a three jaw chuck you would want the work piece held by the full length of the jaws with the stamping next to the jaws. You can always of course put a adjustable parallel under something as a extra measure of security. In regard to tools. My personal experience has been that if machine tools and or accessories cannot hold up under the force of small stamping, they are pretty much useless. Again however this is a personal preference thing. Jerry Kieffer ------- [atlas_craftsman] Craftsman 101.07403 / Anyone here STAMPED numbers on their gears? Posted by: "flipnab" dkratzx~xxnc.rr.com Date: Mon Mar 14, 2011 8:46 am ((PDT)) Has anyone on this site have experience, (either good or bad) with stamping gear teeth I.D.s on their gears? I'd love to stamp clear numbers on the sides and keep it simple. I have concerns for damage to the structure of the metal after a striking force is applied. Thanks for any information you may have on the subject,...(hammer in hand and awaiting a response,...) ------- Re: Craftsman 101.07403 / Anyone here STAMPED numbers on their gears Posted by: "Doc" n8as1x~xxaol.com docn8as Date: Mon Mar 14, 2011 10:39 am ((PDT)) IIRC, seems like my crftsmn gears are already stamped, but i stamped a pile of 14 pitch gears, some steel, some cast iron ..BUT they were one inch thick & not spoked .......i wud not expect any problem w/ADEQUATELY supported ( directly under blow ) gears of zamac ...BUT i haven't stamped any .......since there will be no wear, a light blow will suffice. best wishes. docn8as ------- Re: Craftsman 101.07403 / Anyone here STAMPED numbers on their gears Posted by: "Cindy & Wayne Burner" burners4x~xxcomcast.net Date: Mon Mar 14, 2011 12:07 pm ((PDT)) I would try one of those electric engravers, or better yet...a paint pen. I numbered the index holes on the headstock gear with a paint pen marker years ago, and it has lasted very well. Those nice big white numbers are easy to read, even without my "old man eyes" on. Paint pens come in a variety of colors, and are available in a craft store, hardware store, or an auto parts store. We used to call these "junk yard markers". Try it, you'll like it. Wayne(rice)Burner Not hitting any of my gears with a hammer :>) ------- Re: Craftsman 101.07403 / Anyone here STAMPED numbers on their gears Posted by: "Glenn N" sleykinx~xxcharter.net Date: Mon Mar 14, 2011 1:12 pm ((PDT)) My gears all have factory embossed numbers on them. No way no how would I hit em with a hammer and punch .. unless I wanted to melt em down. Black paint and scratch the numbers through it or use white paint marker on black paint. Better yet make a rack similar to the one that came with the Pick O Matic. I have my change gears on a spool, so they stack and I can get really close to the right gear by looking at the stack. They fit nicely over 1/2" EMT. I have a QCGB and seldom need the change gears or they would be in a rack. Glenn ------- Re: Craftsman 101.07403 / Anyone here STAMPED numbers on their gears Posted by: "mertnedp" pdentremx~xxforterie.com Date: Mon Mar 14, 2011 5:01 pm ((PDT)) The ones that were not embossed I painted the tooth count with white paint on both sides and for the smaller gears I just used dots. 3 dots plus 2 dots = 32 tooth gear. Works for me. ------- new article available: Laser Printing to Metal [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: "RG Sparber" rgsparberx~xxaol.com Date: Wed Aug 10, 2011 7:53 pm ((PDT)) This subject has been tormenting me for over 2 years. My goal was to find a way to laser print to metal without a lot of fancy equipment or material. The answer was hidden on the web in bits and pieces. You likely have all needed materials in your kitchen and den. If not, the local supermarket should have all of it. If you are interested, please see: http://rick.sparber.org/ttm.pdf Your comments and questions are welcome. I am particularly interested in how this works with different types of laser printers and glues. All of us are smarter than any one of us. Rick ------- Re: new article available: Laser Printing to Metal Posted by: "Lance Eggleston" wheezer606x~xxverizon.net Date: Wed Aug 10, 2011 8:45 pm ((PDT)) Hi Rick: Very nice procedural write-up. It surely is simple enough, once you spent the months and months of research. I wonder how your process might work on curved surfaces, such as a half dome cover (bowl shape)? Have you tried curved surfaces? I recently saw a demo of a photo silk screen process that produces excellent results on flat work. Make a high contrast black and white copy of your art work on clear film. Coat a silk screen with photo emulsion. Expose the emulsion with bright diffused light through the art work film. Water wash off the unexposed emulsion. Lay the screen over the flat work piece. Squeegie the ink through the screen onto the flat work piece. Various colored inks or stains can be used on most any substrate. I haven't figured out how to lay a screen on a curved surface and keep the ink from going wild. lance ------- Re: New gearing chart [atlas618lathe] Posted by: "n5fee" n5feex~xxnetzero.net Date: Tue Dec 6, 2011 11:30 am ((PST)) Bruno, Like the others have said, thanks for the great chart. I might pass along my method of using charts like this one. I have a dozen or so of my favorite charts like this change gear chart, drill/tap sizes, speed/feed, tool sharpening guides, etc. that I have laminated using a heat laminating machine. I print them out on 8-1/2 x 11 papers, seal them up and bind them in a loose leaf binder. (Actually I now use a plastic comb binder.) The sheets are protected, and the grease and oil wipe off easily. Several of my charts are composites made by photocopying what I want, trimming them up with scissors, and arranging and gluing several charts to a sheet of paper prior to laminating. I find it is best to trim the sheets to about 8 x 10 to leave plenty of edge margin. If using multiple pieces of paper under one sheet, rubber cement helps to bind them together without bleeding thru or staining. Also, buy the thicker laminating plastic sheets, they hold up much better. Dallas ------- Re: Squares and squareness - was: New Photos [sherline] Posted by: "Ian Newman" ian_newx~xxyahoo.com Date: Wed Jan 4, 2012 4:10 am ((PST)) On Wed, 4/1/12, Dan Dossin wrote: >Ian, A button square? Enlighten me. Enquiring minds want to know. DanD. Hi Dan, A button square (UK term - that used in other countries may differ) is made using an "L" shaped piece of metal and three toolmakers buttons. The toolmakers buttons are usually a set of four small cylinders, one a little longer than the other three, ground to an accurate diameter and with a hole down their axis. They are supplied with bolts that are a very loose fit in the axial hole which allows them to be bolted to an object, then moved round a bit to be precisely placed. See: http://www.talbot-tool.co.uk/itb.htm The three buttons are bolted to the L shaped plate - one at the corner of the L and one at each end of the arms of the L, positioned so they stick a little way beyond the outer edges of the L. See diagram here: http://i219.photobucket.com/albums/cc210/ian-new/buttonsquare.gif Looking at the diagram, the bottom two buttons can be securely tightened and then the third button moved so the tangents formed by linking the edges of the end and corner buttons form a right angle. This can be done against a reference (e.g. a cylinder square). Using a DI or DTI to index off the buttons, etc. The accuracy of the square is limited only by the care taken in positioning the final button. Ian ------- Need software to change blueprint to blackline [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: wa5cabx~xxcs.com Date: Sat Jan 19, 2013 4:06 pm ((PST)) Groups, I received a file from another member of several of these lists asking whether I could turn several blueprints in to regular black on white. The parts are specifically machinery parts to make but I also acquired recently a couple of radio manuals worth scanning with for some strange reason the schematics as blueprints. Hence the wide distribution. Does anyone know of any software that can turn a scanned negative or blueprint into a positive (black lines on white)? If so, please tell me what it is. I actually thought I had done some of this a few years ago but when I went to try to find what I did it with, the cupboard was bare. It would also be nice if the application costs less than AutoCad! Robert Downs - Houston wa5cab dot com (Web Store) MVPA 9480 ------- Re: Need software to change blueprint to blackline Posted by: "drzarling" drzarlingx~xxyahoo.com Date: Sat Jan 19, 2013 4:32 pm ((PST)) Hello: Try the MS-windows PAINT then invert colors on the IMAGE tab. Don ------- Re: Need software to change blueprint to blackline Posted by: "pjkettlejr" pjkettlejrx~xxcomcast.net Date: Sat Jan 19, 2013 5:31 pm ((PST)) Most image display and editing programs can swap colors and black white images. One of the best IMHO is IrfanView, a free download. With IrfanView, just open the document and use the Image:Negative command to reverse the black or blue and white. Paul ------- Re: Need software to change blueprint to blackline Posted by: "Scott Henion" shenionx~xxshdesigns.org Date: Sat Jan 19, 2013 5:39 pm ((PST)) IrfanView is what I use. You can first convert to grayscale and then invert colors. Then you can play with the contrast to make it dark black and full white. Scott G. Henion Craftsman 12x36 lathe: http://shdesigns.org/Craftsman12x36 ------- Re: Need software to change blueprint to blackline Posted by: wa5cabx~xxcs.com Date: Sat Jan 19, 2013 10:41 pm ((PST)) Problem solved and cleaned up file sent two hours ago. Thanks to all who replied. I wish I had gotten this kind of response last time I posted a hardware wanted request! :-) Could have gotten the answer from just about any one of the lists. But traffic was pretty light tonight and you never know. Solution used was IrfanView, because I already had it installed and working and is probably what I used last time I had to do this - just couldn't remember how I did it. But I'm going to look into at least three other suggested software solutions for the future. Robert Downs - Houston ------- Re: Need software to change blueprint to blackline Posted by: "Bruce ." freemab222x~xxgmail.com Date: Mon Jan 21, 2013 10:39 am ((PST)) BTW, if you are photgraphing a book or other hardcopy, you might benefit from some of the software employed in book scanning. Look into diybookscanner.org select Forum, then drop down to software and look for scan tailor. The software is free and I've used it to transform photos of pages into very good images -- square to the frame, color-corrected, etc. ------- Re: Need software to change blueprint to blackline Posted by: "Bruce ." freemab222x~xxgmail.com Date: Mon Jan 21, 2013 9:57 am ((PST)) I just tried this. I captured a blueprint image using Paint, and saved it as .jpg. I opened it in Irfanview, rendered it to negative (Image/ Negative), then to grayscale (Image/Convert to Grayscale), then to black and white (Image/Decrease Color Depth/2 colors). Worked like a champ. ------- Re: Need software to change blueprint to blackline Posted by: wa5cabx~xxcs.com Date: Mon Jan 21, 2013 12:30 pm ((PST)) That's about what I did, only not in that order. Converted the PDF to JPG. Converted the color scan to black and white (2-level). Then did negative. Finally converted to TIF to delete some lines present because the original blueprint had been folded, leaving a white line. ------- Re: Need software to change blueprint to blackline Posted by: anthrhodesx~xxaol.com Date: Wed Jan 23, 2013 2:41 pm ((PST)) Robert, Bad move. Never let the JPG-protocol anywhere near a line drawing except as a final save and then only if you don't care if it gradually deteriorates in future manipulations. I never convert to JPG, always directly to TIF. I may later convert to GIF which in some but not all cases will reduce the file size and continue to be non-lossy. Anthony Berkeley, Calif. ------- Re: Need software to change blueprint to blackline Posted by: wa5cabx~xxcs.com Date: Wed Jan 23, 2013 4:57 pm ((PST)) I know about JPG's lossy compression which is why I have said numerous times on these forums that JPG is generally the worst choice for archiving manuals. But Acrobat has no editing capabilities to speak of and my TIF editor lacks a Negative function. It was only later when I thought to give it a sample to work on that I discovered that IrfanView has most of the same capabilities on TIF that it has on JPG. So I could have saved a step had I known. ------- [atlas_craftsman] New article: Laser Printing to Powder Coated Sheet Aluminum Posted by: "Rick Sparber" rgsparberx~xxaol.com Date: Sun Aug 18, 2013 4:13 pm ((PDT)) Ever wanted to make metal labels for your projects? You can generate the artwork on your computer, but how do you get that artwork onto a metal plate? Here is one answer. This procedure uses a laser printer, common printing paper, a plastic laminator, and powder coated aluminum "coil" (flashing). The process is based on work done by David Pickering. For the full story, please see http://rick.sparber.org/LPPC.pdf Your comments and questions are welcome. All of us are smarter than any one of us. For the full index of my articles, see rick.sparber.org. Rick ------- Re: new article: Laser Printing to Powder Coated Sheet Aluminum Posted by: "Paul DeLisle" ferretpdx~xxgmail.com Date: Sun Aug 18, 2013 4:40 pm ((PDT)) Hey, Rick: Great idea! I am familiar with a similar process, used for making your own printed Circuit Boards. But my big question here is: How durable is the lamination? Does it need a lacquer coating afterward to protect it, or perhaps a run through the oven at about 400F *after* the toner has "set" in place to bind it further? Inquiring minds want to know! ------- Re: new article: Laser Printing to Powder Coated Sheet Aluminum Posted by: "Rick Sparber" rgsparberx~xxaol.com Date: Sun Aug 18, 2013 4:57 pm ((PDT)) As far as I can tell, the toner fuses into the powder coat. I was able to remove the toner after about 2 minutes of hard rubbing with a 3M pad. It took off a noticeable amount of the powder coat with it. Rick ------- Re: new article: Laser Printing to Powder Coated Sheet Aluminum Posted by: "inspiro_creo" david.deboizex~xxverizon.net Date: Sun Aug 18, 2013 5:29 pm ((PDT)) Rick, Very interesting write up on this subject. A while back I read a similar procedure to etch brass sheets in order to make raised characters on the plate. It used similar steps, using a laser printer to create a reverse image, then unlike your laminator, it uses an iron to transfer the toner onto the brass plate. Thereafter, the procedure changes, the following steps require chemicals to etch the area without the toner to lower those sections. The toner raised characters would then be lightly sanded off, and lower etch areas would then be filled with paint. Thus you would have brass raised characters. I believe the above can also be done in aluminum. Thanks for the write up, it's a keeper. David-NJ ------- Re: new article: Laser Printing to Powder Coated Sheet Aluminum Posted by: "Rick Sparber" rgsparberx~xxaol.com Date: Sun Aug 18, 2013 7:06 pm ((PDT)) David, I have been "tilting at this windmill" for a few years. Processes can be similar yet worlds apart. The big contribution from David Pickering is the use of a laminator to give consistent heat and pressure. I've never had luck with an iron or with other forms of heat. If I want to do etching, then toner transfer with the wax paper works well. When I've tried etching aluminum using lye, the heat melted the toner. A weaker mixture would probably solve that problem. Rick ------- Re: new article: Laser Printing to Powder Coated Sheet Aluminum Posted by: "Eggleston Lance" wheezer606x~xxverizon.net Date: Sun Aug 18, 2013 5:41 pm ((PDT)) I have to do this "fill the lower etch areas..." thing on a lathe QCGB speed selector chart where all the red paint was stripped off. The black stayed on through the bath. What are the details of the "fill" procedure: - detail dab on thinned paint? - messy dab on full paint, then sand lightly when dry to get letters back? - spray paint? What's the trick? lance ------- Re: new article: Laser Printing to Powder Coated Sheet Aluminum Posted by: "inspiro_creo" david.deboizex~xxverizon.net Date: Sun Aug 18, 2013 7:25 pm ((PDT)) Lance, Don't remember the details. I read it over a year ago at OWWM or OMWM forum. Go there and do a search. If I remember correctly, it was an aluminum angle gauge on the front of a Delta Unisaw. However there are other write ups online using the same technique for brass tags for old arn machines. Hope this helps. David-NJ ------- Re: new article: Laser Printing to Powder Coated Sheet Aluminum Posted by: "inspiro_creo" david.deboizex~xxverizon.net Date: Sun Aug 18, 2013 7:36 pm ((PDT)) Lance, Just did a quick search in Old Wood Working Machinery forum, read this post dated January of this year: http://www.owwm.org/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=127166&p=853293&hilit=brass+tags\ #p853293 The poster, in detail, explains how he created a tag for his 1950s Unisaw. However, the images are no longer viewable, but you will get the idea. David-NJ ------- Re: new article: Laser Printing to Powder Coated Sheet Aluminum Posted by: "Eggleston Lance" wheezer606x~xxverizon.net Date: Sun Aug 18, 2013 5:01 pm ((PDT)) Rick, I am going to try this with a logo for my Moody lathe rebuild. I have no laminator, so an electric iron will be used. Any idea what temp the laminator runs at? I have a digital pyrometer, so I can set the iron to that temp. Also, my printer is a Xerox Phaser using hot colored wax, not black toner. If your toner is plastic, and mine is wax, I'm thinking lower temp than what you use? lance ------- Re: new article: Laser Printing to Powder Coated Sheet Aluminum Posted by: "Rick Sparber" rgsparberx~xxaol.com Date: Sun Aug 18, 2013 5:09 pm ((PDT)) Lance, It sounds like you don't have the right equipment since the key idea is to fuse plastic toner to the plastic powder coat. However, if you can print wax, I would try printing to parchment paper, and then ironing the paper onto clean copper. Freeze it and then remove the paper. Then use an etching process. Rick ------- Re: new article: Laser Printing to Powder Coated Sheet Aluminum Posted by: "Eggleston Lance" wheezer606x~xxverizon.net Date: Sun Aug 18, 2013 5:42 pm ((PDT)) I just used the MS Word Art trick to print the logo in reverse. Will try the iron-on tomorrow. Pictures and details to follow, if it works. lance ------- Re: new article: Laser Printing to Powder Coated Sheet Aluminum Posted by: "Rick Sparber" rgsparberx~xxaol.com Date: Sun Aug 18, 2013 7:09 pm ((PDT)) Lance, I look forward to hearing about your results. Rick ------------------------------------------------------------------ This is just one of some 80 files about machining and metalworking and useful workshop subjects that can be read at: http://www.janellestudio.com/metal/index.html ------------------------------------------------------------------