This is just one of some 80 files about machining and metalworking and useful workshop subjects that can be read at: http://www.janellestudio.com/metal/index.html ------------------------------------------------------------------ Lubricants for machinery and for hand tools (metalworking or woodworking or whatever) are discussed in detail here. Chances are pretty good that your question, and some experienced answers, are present. Lubricants, besides making parts slide nearly effortlessly past one another and thus minimizing both friction and wear, may also serve as a protectant against moisture and corrosion. But a good protectant may not be the best lubricant, and the reverse might be true. Choice of the best product depends very much on the materials concerned and the actual result desired in a particular situation. Certain lubricants may also have great penetrating ability, which we can regard simplistically as the ability to crawl into the slim interface between parts and help unstick them, perhaps also loosening oxidation. This file is primarily concerned with products for their function as lubricants, but will include protectant or penetrant qualities in some conversations. We also include some mention of how lubricants are applied. If you got to this file directly from my HOME PAGE, return there by using your browser's back button. BUT if you came to this file as the result of a web search engine, see many additional files on my home page Machining and Metalworking at Home http://www.janellestudio.com/metal/index.html SAFETY WARNING BEWARE: DO NOT ASSUME that any subject matter or procedure or process is safe or correct or appropriate just because it was mentioned in a news/user group or was included in these files or on this site or on any other web site or was published in a magazine or book or video. Working with metals and machinery and chemicals and electrical equipment is inherently dangerous. Wear safety devices and clothing as appropriate. Remove watches, rings, and jewellery -- and secure or remove loose clothing -- before operating any machine. Read, understand and follow the latest operating procedures and safety instructions provided by the manufacturer of your machine or tool or product. 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(c) Copyright 2003 - 2016 Machining and Metalworking at Home The form of the collected work in this text file (including editing, additions, and notes) is copyrighted and this file is not to be reproduced by any means, including electronic, without written permission except for strictly personal use. ========================================================================== From: Wally Skyrman Date: Wed Mar 1, 2000 8:30pm Subject: Oil Cup Wicking In the past I have used wool yarn for the wicking. Take a small pin punch and thru the hole in the oil cup fill the cavity beneth the oil cup with the yarn. Pack the yarn in tight by hand to get the retaining effect. It takes very little oil to do the job. It just needs to be there all the time. Wally in Central Point Oregon ------- From: Jon Elson Date: Tue Mar 7, 2000 7:17pm Subject: Re: way oil results J Tiers wrote: > I got a gallon of Vactra #2 from McMaster-Carr, and naturally had > to oil up with it asap. Having done so, I will not ever go back to > 30wt or other oils. No Way. As soon as the oil got distributed, I > noticed an immediate easing of movement. The stick-slip thing is > really true. While there is still a slight stick when the slide has > sat unmoving for a while, that is less. Also, as soon as it is moving, > it is easier to continue movement, even slowly. I would guess it > was at least twice as easy to make small movements of the cross-slide > or carriage as before. I don't know what is in it, it smells a bit > like auto differential oil or other EP oils. And I think it will pick > up more chips, but that is what way-wipers are for. It does seem to > work. Highly recommended IMHO. I assume you are talking about a mill, here. Yes, it makes a big difference. In addition to way wipers, you should get way protectors. This is an accordion-pleated rubber part to go in front of the saddle, and a plain rubber sheet that goes from the back of the saddle to above the knee ways. There are metal ends which you drill as needed to install on the machine. I was HORRIFIED when I opened up my knee the 2nd time, and found it filled with chips, after I thought I had been so careful to keep chips from getting into the works. (The first time was when I got the machine, and I pulled about 2 bushels of chips out of there.) Jon ------- From: Pete & Sheri Date: Sat Apr 8, 2000 1:09am Subject: Re: Spindle and Way Oil I don't blame you for wanting to do the "right thing" by your lathe, but I don't think you have to be too worried about the lubricants. For the first 27 years I had my current 10X 24 lathe (my fourth Atlas lathe), used whatever motor oil I was using in my automobiles and farm tractors. Then, about 3 years ago, I bought a used Gallmeyer and Livingston 8 X 20" surface grinder. The manual was very clear about the lubricants for it so I bought them and start using them in my lathe, also. Spindle oil is Rando HD 32 Way oil is Vactra #2 (Mobil way oil #68). The reason that I suggest not to worry too much is that I think most folks do more damage to their lathes and other "sliding" shop equipment by allowing dust and grit and metal particle get to the machine than by not selecting the very best oils. To make it as easy as possible to keep my lathe covered, I bought a window shade wide enough to fit over my lathe and attached it to the wall in back of the lathe about 6" above the highest point on the lathe. Then, all I have to do when I am done working is to pull the shade out and over the lathe and viola'! It is covered! Of course I also clean the ways and oil them BEFORE I use it. And, if I am doing any ABRASIVE work, such as using emery cloth or tool post grinding, I cover the ways with something appropriate. When I bought this lathe, the ways had just been regound and the headstock bearings were brand new. Now, after 30 years, the ways show no wear. And 2 months ago I had to take the headstock apart to find the source of a non-repeatable run out. You could see where the rollers were contacting the outer bearing race, but there was no measureable (not be me at least) wear and no pitting at all. Oil it regularly, clean the oil off just as regularly and and keep abrasive stuff off of it. Pete Stanaitis ------- From: philv Date: Fri Apr 21, 2000 10:04pm Subject: Re: Spindle Oil Cup Felt Wicking When I restored my 12 inch lathe there was no felts in the oil cups so I went to a JoAnn Fabrics store and bought a piece of white felt material at the cost of less than a dollar. I then found a short piece of metal tubing close to the diameter of the inside of the oil cup on the lathe. Took it to my bench grinder (a file would work) and ground off some metal at the end of the tube to make a sharp cutting edge. Next I scrounged up a piece of hardwood and my trusty ball peen hammer, with the new punch I fabricated I proceeded to punch out several white felt "discs" . Stacked 4 or 5 on top of each other and put them in an oil cup on the headstock of my lathe. Added a little machine oil and it works great, total cost of less than a buck. I made enough felt "discs" for the two headstock bearings (babbit) and the two bearings cups on the jackshaft between the electric motor and the headstock and still have most of the felt material left for future use. ------- From: Jon Elson Date: Fri Apr 21, 2000 7:17pm Subject: Re: Spindle Oil Cup Felt Wicking Tom Stubblefield wrote: >> Does anybody have an extra couple of inches of the round felt wicking that goes in the oil cups on the headstock spindle on the A/C 618? I think 1/4" will fit. All I've found on the net are manufacturers who won't sell to individuals. << I had this missing on one cup of my 12" Atlas/Craftsman. I doubled over a short length of thin cotton (or similar material) cord, tied a knot in it to keep it from slipping down too far, and put that in the cup. It works just fine, and seems to keep the oil flow rate close to the other one that has the factory wick. I don't think this material is really very special. Jon ------- Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2000 09:35:45 -0500 From: Subject: Oiler types I saw your post on oiler types. Here are some cures. Get a automotive hand grease gun (cartridge type) with zerk fitting tip. Auto supply house handle these. Check size of zerk and tip to assure a match. Gun tip is pressed down on zerk to press down a spring loaded ball to allow grease to go in as handle is squeezed. When finished lubricating, remove gun tip and ball springs up, sealing zerk. There is some excess grease on outside of zerk from process. Use clean rag or some type of paper wipe to remove, but be careful not to get grease on your skin, it will irritate! Oiler ball is a simple spring loaded ball in a small tube. Find a oil can spout small enough to fit and press ball down with oil can spout tip against spring pressure and squeeze oil in. When tip is removed after oiling, ball springs back up to seal out dirt. Wipe ball clean with wipe or clean rag. Oiler ball goes down about 1/8 of an inch or so. HTH. J. Sprott Kansas City, MO ------- From: Rich D. Date: Wed Dec 20, 2000 3:28pm Subject: Re: WD-40 on lead screws? Rogerio Odriozola wrote: > Hi everyone. I know Sherline recommends using graphite on the lead > screws, but last night the z axis was dry and it got really hard, I > only had WD-40 oil and squirted a bit on it. It is very easy moving > now, but is it OK to use this oil instead of grease? > Thanks! Rogerio Odriozola Rogerio: Most folks that use this stuff, myself included, say it is NOT a lubricant. It may seem ok at first, but does not pan out. 3 in 1 oil or any good machine lube, never any detergent motor oils. The oil sold for knife sharpening is an excellent mineral oil. Gear oil is good too. Rich D. ------- From: Yasmiin Davis Date: Wed Dec 20, 2000 9:43pm Subject: RE: WD-40 on lead screws? ***No motor oil*** I put a hearty second to this. I restore machine tools and one of the biggest parts of any restoration is the removal of the varnish that detergent oils, petroleum based oils, coolants, cutting oils, and WD-40 turn into over time. I would take all my cans of WD-40 and put them in the trash as that is where they belong. Use products that are specifically designed to perform the function you are intending. Be all do all 3-in-One-Oil, WD-40, etc. do far more harm over the long run than the short term good they seen to perform. I have dozens of different greases, oils and cleaners in my shop but not one can of WD-40. The key here is, all things you use should be non-oxidizing products, and any product that meets that criterion will say so on the packaging. If it doesn't it will oxidize over time. Make your machine tools ones that don't have to be restored by some future owner, or discarded when they won't hold tolerances any more. Yasmiin ------- From: Date: Wed Dec 20, 2000 5:17pm Subject: Re: WD-40 on lead screws? ***No motor oil*** Group, I would like to share an oil that I have used for some time and enjoy very much. It is called the "Highest Quality Turbine All purpose oil (Certified) and it states for "Industrial equipment motors from 1/3 HP to 5HP, shop tools, all bushings, shafts bearings and all mechanical linkages of any and all kinds. This is a product of Norvey, Inc. and called on the front "The original Zoom Spout". I have used it as stated and used it for my new headstock project (not related to the Sherline) and it has performed perfectly; in addition I have used it in several restoration old electric fan bushing projects with great results. It can be gotten in a good hardware store. (I got it at an old hardware store that was converted to an Ace.) This oil is very pure and I am sure that members will like it very much, is cost about $6.00 and one bottle lasts me about two years of normal use. Best Regards, Chris of Bradenton FL ------- From: Rogerio Odriozola Date: Thu Dec 21, 2000 7:03am Subject: Re: WD-40 on lead screws? Thanks everyone. I'll try to get Mobile 1 tomorrow and maybe some other lubricants. WD-40's smell brings back good memories but you are right about it not holding in the long run, all my fishing equipment is gunky. Rogerio Odriozola ------- From: Nick Bristow Date: Thu Dec 21, 2000 11:34am Subject: Re: WD-40 on lead screws? Yasmiin Davis wrote: >> Whale oil is illegal so I hope it isn't that -- but there are a number of oils used by clock and watch makers that are excellent. Some are replacements for whale oil. Some are oils like Jojoba oil. A non- oxidizing product which is use in certain situations. A note of caution: jojoba oil turns to a wax like consistency at temps around 40 deg F as soon as the temperature rises again it returns to its original state. There are several clock oils the best of them being one made in France. If anyone wants the name I will look it up for you. Another product I like for rust prevention is an oil from a tree Camellia Oil http://amos.catalogcity.com/cc.class/cc?main=catalog&pcd=461692&ccsyn=1 This oil will prevent rust and won't mark wood. << Hi, the oil you speak of is called Moebius oil. It is available from clock supply houses. It comes in different types depending on application. I believe the best suited for the Sherline application is Moebius #4. The best company I have found for this is LaRose at 1-888-752-7673. It is part number OL-204 in their catalog. HTH. Nick ------- From: Mac Goekler Date: Thu Dec 21, 2000 5:16pm Subject: Re: WD-40 on lead screws? ***No motor oil*** Hi Guys: The name WD-40 (for you trivia buffs) stands "water displacement -- 40th try" or the 40th attempt at producing an product the displaces water (also works well with grease). WD-40 has its uses -- a bicycle chain after it has been laid up wet. The problem with WD-40 is that it has solvents and after they evaporate very little oil is left. Zoom Spout is used for electric motor bearings (furnace blowers, etc.) and it appears to be a "pure oil" -- would be good for lathe/mill moving parts. I, myself use a "pure" 10 wt. (base oil) -- similar to Zoom Spout. HTH. Mac Goekler ------- From: Arnold & Diane Chord Date: Fri Dec 22, 2000 11:58am Subject: Re: Re: WD-40 on lead screws? [sherline] > TriFlow works very well on sherline leadscrews. Is this what you have? > DuPont Teflon Bearing Grease is also sold in some bike shops, and is > MUCH better. It is based on Krytox, a lubricant developed for the > space shuttle. Check out: > http://www.sandsmachine.com/grease_t.htm > HTH. Ballendo The stuff that I have is called TE2 Teflon Lubricant. I will check out the other. Thank you ------- Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2001 11:57:12 -0500 From: Jude Miller Subject: Re: Bearing oil... dswrx~xxwebtv.net wrote: > A question for owners of the Craftsman 6". I have always had > to add oil to the right hand headstock bearing real often during > operations. Is this the norm? Same on mine. I have to add oil every hour or two to the right side headstock bushing. I top up the left side before starting, and it takes days before it gets low again. There are no felts in the oilers on mine, by the way. I'm using light spindle oil in mine, which I suspect is too light, but I've got a lot of it. What are you putting in yours? Best, Jude Miller ------- Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2001 11:25:27 -0600 (CST) From: dswrx~xxwebtv.net Subject: Re: Bearing oil... 10 weight motor oil. This is what Sears recommended in the "instructions" supplied with the lathe. It says (the instructions) quote: "Oilless Bronze Bearings are used in the headstock of this lathe and lubrication takes place by oil seepage through the porous bushing wall thus assuring a filtered lubricant. DO NOT DRILL HOLES THRU THE BUSHINGS." Leo ------- Date: Sun, 14 Jan 2001 02:35:35 From: "robert B" Subject: Re: Bearing oil... My old Atlas, has timkin tapered roller bearings in the headstock. And the right bearing leaks also. I put power punch for transmissions in it. It doesn't leak out much at all, and seems to lube just fine. At least I have a hell of a lot of hours on the stuff in my headstock bearings, and no problems so far.. ------- Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2001 16:38:52 -0600 From: Jon Elson Subject: Re: cutting fluids "Roger V. Petrella Jr." wrote: > I would like to get some recommendations on what you guys are using for > cutting fluids when using the lathe (or small mill). I would be cutting > all the common things like aluminum, brass, steel (both mild and alloy) > and plastics. I have used the sulfur based oil pipe thread cutting > stuff from the hardware store - works okay, but messy! I am a bit leery > of using the stuff you mix with water for fear of rust problems when > the lathe is inactive for long periods. I have used thread cutting oil for years, and it works pretty well, but does get the parts all greasy. I do a lot of smaller things with no cutting fluid. Thread cutting and parting-off are things that absolutely require a lube of some sort, or the results are awful (or awfully damaging, when the tool binds up). Yes, the water-based coolants definitely will get into everything. Most of them have rust inhibitors, but there can still be corrosion where the stuff is left on the ways under the carriage, for instance. My method for dealing with this is to spray LPS1 (a penetrating, water-removing light oil) on the ways, run the sliding part back and forth a couple of times, and wipe clean, then repeat until no more water drops are seen in the oil film. I do this on my milling vise, which gets liberally dosed with coolant. The rest of the mill is pretty well shielded from this contamination. But, an Atlas's ways would be right in the path of the wet chips and splatter. I wouldn't use a flood or heavy mist system without some sort of guarding system to keep the wet stuff off the ways. > Also, is it worth the cost ($200-250) to use a mist cooling system > for small occasional projects? It depends. These are COOLING systems, more than lube systems. Their lube capabilities might not be enough for threading and parting-off. But, I DO have the problem on the Atlas that parts get too hot to work accurately when taking large amounts of material off. For instance, if you want to make a shaft with a big flange on the end all in one piece, you start with a large bar and turn most of it down, removing a lot of material. It will get really hot, and there is nothing you can do about it without coolant. I sometimes have to leave the lathe running at high speed for 20 or more minutes, and just walk away to let it cool. (The chuck jaws act as a very crude centri- fugal blower, drawing air across the part, but air is a very poor coolant compared to water.) So, if you do a lot of that heavy stock removal work, DO get a coolant system, or make your own. The technology is not magic. Look at the bug sprayers at the hardware store - the ones with the bottle attached to the end of a bicycle pump type air source. These things are EXTREMELY crude, but work fairly well. I think you could build a very workable mist system from a Tupperware container, some small tubing and a few small plumbing fittings of the 1/4" brass NPT sort, and a length of 1/8" brass tubing. Jon ------- Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2001 23:58:44 -0000 From: "Edwin J. Bailen" Subject: Re: cutting fluids Fitch Williams over on the RCM newsgroup uses a 50-50 mixture of cheap tractor hydraulic fluid and mineral spirits (pain thinner) for flood coolant on his mill. I've tried it on my G1008 and I like it. The thought of using a water-based coolant on my equipment makes me mighty nervous. The drip pan under my A/C 6" won't handle coolant in any volume, so I use a hand oiler with heavy sulphur cutting oils that will cling to the surface. Some day I'd like to upgrade the drip tray and lathe stand to use a flood system, but that would definitely requre a splash shield attached to the carriage. As it is now, I can tolerate the black stripe up the wall behind the lathe, but I used to have chain-driven motorcycles, so I'm used to oily black stripes (up the back of my jacket). 8=) I gather you are not supposed to use any sort of intermittant coolant (drip, hand oiler, brush, etc.) with a carbide bit. Ed - Lake Travis, Tx ------- Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2001 01:56:36 -0500 From: Stan Stocker Subject: Re: cutting fluids Roger: I either cut dry or use the following: Copper - half and half - messy but it works Aluminum - kerosene or WD40 Steel - Mitee thread cutting oil, often on sale for $8 (USD) per gallon at my local hardware store. For some applications I thin it about 50% with kerosene or mineral spirits. Brass - usually done dry I usually use an acid (flux) brush to apply cutting lube. They are cheap and last a long time. I sometimes use "Edge Lube" on mills, and always use it on the band saw. Stan ------- Date: Sun, 04 Feb 2001 18:39:41 -0800 From: Greg Benedict Subject: Re: Gear Lubricant Try using motorcycle chain lube. It is available in aerosol cans. It is designed to handle high heat and load applications. It sticks to the gears and doesn't fly off. Just the ticket for gear trains. Greg B. ------- Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2001 21:50:46 EST From: SNOOZPx~xxAOL.COM Subject: Re: Gear Lubricant MR. CHIDISTER at Clausing recommends..."LUBRIPLATE HEAVY DUTY GEAR SHIELD". LUBRIPLATE PRODUCT #'S SPRAY--LO152-000 CAN-LO152-0063 VINCE ------- Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 04:02:33 -0600 From: Subject: Re: Lube? > I have a Atlas 6" X 18" Quickchange out in the shop. > What I was wondering is what do ya'll use for lubrication > in the little oil pots? > I've been using 3in1 oil because thats what I had on hand. > Is that a good thing or not? Thanks! EDH Dalton Georgia I saw your post on lube for the Atlas 6" lathe. Do not use 3-in-1 oil if possible. It has a tendency to gum up if the lathe is idle for long periods of time. Automotive motor oil can be used (10W30). If available, 3-in-1 electric motor oil can be used (blue and white can), but you may have to special order it. Some hardware stores stock it, and some do not. HTH! Yours, James Sprott ------- Properly tensioning the chain [SHOPTASK] makes it quieter. If there's too much slack you get a lot of chain slap and noise. I can tell when to lube or adjust the chain by the noise it makes. I don't see how that chain can be as quiet as a belt, though. A motorcycle chain wax (I use "Maxima," commonly available at motorcycle dealers) works well on that chain. Lube after the lathe has been running a while so that the chain is warm. The lube sprays on like WD40 and wicks into the spaces between the links and rollers. After about 15-20 minutes the carrier evaporates and leaves a relatively clean waxy residue. The wax is much cleaner than oil and the chain seems to run quieter. ------- Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 06:02:25 -0000 From: dlangley52x~xxyahoo.com Subject: Re: Gear Lubricant In atlas_craftsman, Greg Benedict wrote: > Try using motorcycle chain lube. It is available in aerosol cans. It > is designed to handle high heat and load applications. It sticks to > the gears and doesn't fly off. Just the ticket for gear trains Heavy lubes that stick on the gears also have the ability to catch and hold chips. That isn't good on your gears. Especialy if you have the bad habit of cleaning up around the lathe with an air hose. Learned not to do that the hard way cost me a set of spindle bearings on the Atlas. Later Dale ------- Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 05:07:36 -0000 From: ballendox~xxyahoo.com Subject: re:Re: Question for Craig Libuse: Cutting Lathe Bits In sherline, "tauseef" wrote: > hey rich thanks for the link. By the way what cutting fuild do YOU use > for aluminum (6061-T6) and for the steel that you cut? thanks tauseef Tauseef, I'm not Rich, but for 6061-T6 we use WD-40 for milling, A-9 for drilling/tapping. For typical steels: mild 1018, 12L14. etc. we use Hagenstorfer S500 and for stainless we use Westlube. on cnc's we run the s500 (looks like milk). HTH. Ballendo ------- Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 00:11:06 -0600 From: Jon Elson Subject: Re: Oil and lubrication Ed Drobny wrote: >> I have recently purchased a 10 inch atlas lathe. I checked some of the old posts for lubrication information, but I'm stillnot sure what to use. Most folks seem to think that Lubriplate heavy duty gear shield is the product of choice for the gears themselves. What about the ways? The bearings? What about the pulley shaft bearings where Atlas recommends "medium grade automotive grease". Atlas recommeds SAE 20 for most of the above lubrication. Is this nondetergent oil, or does it matter? I have looked at some spindle oils in catalogs-are ISO grades the same as SAE viscosity grades? << If you have the countershaft with the screw-on grease cups, then automotive axle grease from the local auto or hardware store should work fine. The ways, leadscrews, apron, etc. can be lubed with non-detergent SAE 20 weight oil, or way oil from a machinist's supply outfit. The way oil is made 'sticky' to allow it to cling to surfaces longer. Some people believe the detergent will hold moisture or particles. It is pretty clear that detergent oils get gummy in cavities and bearings. The bearings can be lubed with the SAE 20 oil, or spindle oil for roller bearings, if that's what you have. SAE 20 is fine for babbit bearings. Jon ------- Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 16:29:15 -0000 From: epdrobnyx~xxhuntel.net Subject: Lubrication answers After posting my previous questions on lubrication, I called Mobil and talked to an "expert advisor". According to him, the #10 spindle oil that some folks use is way too thin (less than SAE 5). He recommended DTE heavy/medium oil which is a "little" thicker than SAE 20. He recommended their #2 way oil. For the equivalent of Keystone Moly-29, he recommended Mobil tach 375-NC spray oil/grease. My supplier only had Exxon dynagear spray, an equivalent oil for open gears. For an approximantion, ISO 22 is about euqal to SAE 10, and ISO 46 is about the same as SAE 20. I hope that this helps someone out there. ------- Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 15:37:26 -0000 From: "alfred piszcz" Subject: spindle bearing lube [ATLAS 6" LATHE] Nick, There should be a "GITS" oiler on the back of the headstock just below the backgear lever. Mine has a right angle oiler. I don't believe the bearings are sealed, just shielded. Page 3 of the manual says to lubricate the spindle bearings daily with SAE # 20 oil. Fill oiler until oil seeps out of side of headstock underneath the spindle. It does not accept oil readily but you will soon learn to give it just enough daily to keep from making a mess below the chuck. It does seem to retain the oil well. al 6x18--ser #002118--purchased new from factory 3/7/78 ------- Date: Wed, 16 May 2001 12:55:45 -0400 From: "Ebower" Subject: Re: Tumbler Gears On Atlas 12" Lathe Try to get a can of spray "wire and open gear" lube. It has graphite in it and I use it on all the lathes I have in my shop. There usually will be less noise if the gears are sprayed about once a week, with moderate use of the machine. Earl ------- From: johnt49x~xxh... Date: Wed Jul 4, 2001 9:56 am Subject: lubrication What are the pros & cons of using a synthetic oil vs a petroleum based oil to lube the moving parts of an Atlas 618. I've disassembled all moving parts & cleaned them & I'm replacing the spindle bearings. Also, would this be good to use on the ways & other non moving parts to prevent corrosion. I live in S. Fl. where the humidity will eat up unprotected parts in no time. Thanks, John ------- From: "Don Colbath" Date: Wed Jul 4, 2001 11:00 am Subject: Re: [atlas_craftsman] lubrication I have been studying the natural vs synthetic oil for a while when discussions started between members of the Experimental Aircraft Association about which to use in their airplanes. I'm not a complete expert but I use a blend in my car now. It seems that synthetics have good cleaning, lubricating, temperature stability properties and the ability to carry off particals to a filter. What they are not good at is preserving metal from rust. The anecdotal version is that they are so slippery that they slip off the metal, like your crank and camshaft, while your plane sits unused for months and rust and pitting occurr. What convinced me was an experiment I did. I took an old brake disc that was sitting around rusting and wire brushed it clean. I then scribed a line down the middle and etched the word oil and synth on each side so I could identify it later. I coated half with regular 10W30 and half with synthetic and set it outside in the weather. Sure enough over the period of a month or six weeks the synth side developed rust while the natural oil side didn't. Not totally scientific but good enough to convince me. This is similar to what we found years ago when I used to work on Selectric typewriters for the State of Texas. We found that Marvel Mystery Oil was marvelous for dissolving crud and that it migrated into real tight spots by capillary action much quicker than the IBM #10 oil we had been using. However, it was not good for long term lubrication as it tended to "evaporate out" like WD40 and other thin oils. We went to a 50/50 mixture and that worked great. Don Colbath Austin Texas Never fry chicken when you're naked! ------- From: Date: Tue Jul 3, 2001 5:57 am Subject: Re: [atlas_craftsman] lubrication Don: Thank you for the interesting explanation. I will keep that in my mind when restoring the machines to come this year. The funny expression at the bottom of your mail is unknown here. Is that because the chicken might be frightened ? Jean-Claude, Switzerland www.homestead.com/turnandmill ------- From: larry ice Date: Wed Jul 4, 2001 1:24 pm Subject: oil Hi Don: Interesting comment about frying chicken. Did you use a 50-50 mixture while frying the chicken. Or...maybe you should have basted it on yourself and not on the chicken. Just a thought... Iceman ------- From: larry ice Date: Wed Jul 4, 2001 1:33 pm Subject: lubrication Hi JC: No the expression a refers to how hard it is to get the chicken to stand still while being oiled. It also makes it hard to pickup eggs. What is this crazy Fourth of July or what. Hope everybody is enjoying the holiday. Iceman ------- From: larry ice Date: Wed Jul 4, 2001 1:35 pm Subject: Re: [atlas_craftsman] lubrication John, use it constantly! Try keeping it covered with WD-40 between uses. Did I just start a WD40 thread or what? Iceman ------- From: S1 Date: Thu Jul 5, 2001 1:26 am Subject: Re: [atlas_craftsman] lubrication After I am done for the evening, I use WD 40 to protect the ways of my lathe and the table on the mill. It works real well. It seals the metal real nice and, on the edges, penetrates enough into the gibs to help keep them lubricated. It keeps everything running like new. Living in St. Louis, with its inhumanly humid summers, I think it's a must. Gabe ------- From: "jerdal" Date: Wed Jul 4, 2001 11:39 pm Subject: Re: [atlas_craftsman] lubrication Use of way oil has proved a very good protection, also in St Louis. Nary a bit of rust, despite never quite knowing if there may be condensing conditions. WD-40, btw, has proved to allow rust inside of 24 hours. I am NOT starting a WD40 thing, merely reporting!!! Jerry ------- From: "Bob May" Date: Thu Jul 5, 2001 12:56 pm Subject: Re: [atlas_craftsman] lubrication WD-40 displaces the water but has the problem of being highly evaporative and thus it only works for a short while. Anytime you want to insure protection, use WD-40 to clean the water off and then apply a regular oil to maintain the film. The WD-40 will assist the oil in covering everything by its thinning the oil to where it will quickly get into all the little holes, etc. Bob May http://nav.to/bobmay ------- From: Jim Rigel Date: Thu Jul 5, 2001 11:18 pm Subject: Re:lubrication I use 30 oil with a small amount of STP added. I found without the STP that some moistured got on the ways through the oil, but with the addition of STP none does. I have used this on my lathe for 25 years and it still looks like new. No rust or wear. I do clean the lathe and reoil often. Jim ------- From: sleykinx~xxa... Date: Thu Aug 9, 2001 8:01 pm Subject: Re: [atlas_craftsman] Re: Atlas 618 need parts ND Non-detergent oils are for machine applications. Detergent oils are for IC engines to break down carbons from combustion and carry them to the filter. On machinery you don't want the oil to suspend particles and carry it around to keep doing damage. You want it to settle out and stay at the bottom. (as in a gearhead) ------- From: "Jeffrey C. Dege" Date: Sat Aug 18, 2001 12:30 am Subject: Rust Haven't touched the Taig in a couple of months - and I find the beginnings of rust on some components. (Back of the chuck, etc.) Well yes, I oiled things down. But any general advice? How to store things so as to avoid rust, without getting oil and grease all over everything? Anything to avoid? Am I right, in thinking that the cardboard boxes that the parts ship in absorb sufficient moisture to encourage rust? Are there any alternatives? What do people use? ------- From: "Nicholas Carter and Felice Luftschein" Date: Sat Aug 18, 2001 1:42 am Subject: Re: [taigtools] Rust Those little silica dessicant packs that you get with electronic gear, etc. are good. Where are you storing things? ------- From: Tom Benedict Date: Sat Aug 18, 2001 5:54 pm Subject: Re: [taigtools] Rust Be careful of Naval Jelly. The stuff's great and all, but it'll eat black oxide off of tools in a heartbeat. (My Sherline rotary table looks like a disaster because of this.) > Am I right, in thinking that the cardboard boxes that the > parts ship in absorb sufficient moisture to encourage rust? > Are there any alternatives? What do people use? My shop's out in my shed, so rust prevention is a real need. This is what I do, but if someone has tried this and found something better, let me know. I use Boeshield whenever possible. Boeshield was some stuff developed by Boeing to keep the insides of airplane wings from getting rusty. It leaves a slightly waxy residue behind, but even a really thin coat will block nearly all rust. I got a can at Woodcraft, and it's lasted almost half a year (including using a ton on a shaper I'm still refurbishing.) I've still got plenty in the can. One place I've found that Boeshield doesn't work so well is on the ways. If I know I'm not going to be out in the shop for a while, I'll Boeshield the lot of it. But when I come back, I'll hit the ways with some WD-40 to break down the Boeshield, then wipe them down with way oil. Tom ------- From: "Carol & Jerry Jankura" Date: Sat Aug 18, 2001 10:21 pm Subject: RE: [taigtools] Rust Tom: One thing about BoeShield - I use it for woodworking machinery, hadn't even thought about putting it on my Sherlines - is that you really should give it a good rubbing down about a day after you apply it. It tends to get a bit tacky if you don't buff it well and acts like a sawdust magnet. On a Lathe way, for example, I'd expect the tailstock to want to stick if you don't buff it out well. Then, apply a coat of good wax. I use Simoniz or Johnson's, but not the stuff for floors that has slip inhibitors built in. Trewax also works well. Jerry Jankura Strongsville, Ohio ------- From: "Jeffrey C. Dege" Date: Sat Aug 18, 2001 9:17 pm Subject: Re: [taigtools] Rust Way oil? I mixed a batch of home-brew gun oil a while back. 2 parts Auto Transmission Fluid, 1 part Mobile-1 30 weight, 1 part STP oil treatment. Makes a nice sticky mix. ------- Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2001 08:56:02 -0400 From: Ken Jenkins Subject: Re: Turbine oil > Right now my way oil is a bottle of turbine oil I wound up > with for some reason. The price was right (free, since I have > no memory of buying it), and it works great. Tom I also use turbine oil and I really like it. The stuff I got comes in a bottle with a very long extending tube which makes it easy to get into tight spots with it. Ken J. ------- Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2001 19:37:55 EDT From: MMksanchezx~xxaol.com Subject: Belated Thanks [RE OIL CUPS/WICKS] A couple of weeks ago, I asked for some advice about how to solve a problem with my craftsman lathe. The problem was, that it leaked lubricant to the point where the oil caps would drain within 5 minutes. Well, someone suggested that I should check the wicks in the cups - my lathe didn't have any wicks, so out of an old cotton shoe lace (my wife's) I fashioned two wicks, and it worked like a charm! Thank you very much to all of the crew for their many suggestions! Manny ------- Date: Sat, 06 Oct 2001 06:06:00 +0000 From: Jon Elson Subject: Re: Lubricant for QC Gearbox [atlas_craftsman] James Bacon wrote: > I know I saw a thread on this topic several months ago so I apologize for asking the question again: Can anyone tell me what the recommended lube is for a quickchange gearbox? I seem to remember some discussion many months ago of oil vs. some type of grease, but I don't remember the specifics. I recently acquired a QC for my Atlas 10" lathe and I'd like to install it soon. Any advice is appreciated. < The Atlas book indicates SAE # 20 oil applied weekly to the 6 oil cups on the (12") QC box itself. The gear train bushings are to beoiled daily with SAE # 20. There is also a note to lube gear TEETH with "Keystone No. 122 gear lubricant or equivalent". I have no idea what this stuff is, but any light grease is probably OK. If anyone has a more specific substitute, or can tell where to get the real thing, let us know. Jon ------- Date: Fri, 05 Oct 2001 23:09:20 -0700 From: "Larry Bailey" Subject: Re: Lubricant for QC Gearbox I had a supplier cross-reference this stuff, and he came up with what's called an open gear lube. It's in a spray can, messy as hell, black, kind of reminds me of motorcycle chain lube. It's a Chevron product. It seems to work well, the carrier doesn't fully evaporate, so it stays fairly liquid but doesn't fling off. Some on this and other boards will tell you not to use a grease for fear of getting chips embedded in it and damaging gear teeth. YMMV Larry ------- Date: Fri, 05 Oct 2001 23:15:49 -0700 From: Chris Difani Subject: Re: Lubricant for QC Gearbox and Gears in General The Lubriplate product number GR-132, is the functional equivalent of the Keystone 122 grease. What is special about these lubricants is that they will "self-feed" back into the gear teeth. With most lubricants, when it is squeezed out of the meshing teeth, it stays "out", and eventually all the lubricant is on the outside edges of the gears, and none is on the meshing portions of the gear teeth. Lubriplate GR-132 feeds itself back into the teeth, so there is a constant circulation of lubricant into the meshing teeth. It is a remarkable product and makes a big difference on whatever kinds/types of gear teeth it is used on. It is specified for use on both plastic and metallic gears. HTH. Chris ------- Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 09:27:54 -0700 From: "Craig Libuse" Subject: Re: Machine Lubricant >Craig; What is the exact name of the new synthetic grease you are now using on your machines? I have found Mobile 1 in a red color but no mention of it containing Teflon. Your response will be appreciated.< Joe: We buy it in a five-gallon bucket from Synco Chemical Corp. The brand name is Super-Lube with Syncolon (PTFE). You can try their web site at www.super-lube.com or call (800) 253-LUBE. It is a clear, white color. From their web site you can order a 3-ounce tube for $5.00 plus $2.00 shipping. It also comes in other small sizes. I don't think the Mobil 1 equivilent is red. That sounds more like wheel bearing grease. The Mobil 1 with teflon definitely says "with Teflon" on it. Craig Libuse Sherline Products Inc. [NOTE TO FILE: also available at tire/auto stores] ------- Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 09:54:09 -0700 From: "Yasmiin Davis" Subject: RE: Machine Lubricant Super lube is great stuff -- I buy it at my local hardware store. This is a store that stocks a lot of stuff but I would think you should be able to find it elsewhere. Seems like Eagle hardware or other large hardware should have it. Its clear and doesn't make a mess. With that old black grease I invariably get it all over me when I just walk by a machine. Yasmiin ------- Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2001 21:36:14 -0600 From: Jim Irwin Subject: Re: Re: Cleaning and oiling 3-in-1 and WD40 have two characteristics in common. They're both very poor lubricants/protectors, AND both turn to varnish on your good tools in fairly short order. Oh, yes, and they are popular and available everywhere for some strange reason. Good marketing I suppose. Use good oil...it costs little more but pays off so much more. ATF [Automatic Transmission Fluid] is a very good substitute for 20 wt oil. Or buy some good brand of 20wt motor oil. Really cheap by comparison and so much better. Best regards, Jim Irwin ------- Date: Thu, 01 Nov 2001 19:12:59 -0000 From: kkoepkex~xxspacehab.com Subject: Re: Cleaning and oiling > From the can, 3-in-One is a 20 wt oil that meets SAE 20 specifications. I have read comments in this group about using a strong detergent and water to clean machine and auto parts with great success. Well, I was a bit skeptical about touching water to any clean ferrous metal item, until last night. I purchased a bottle of Simple Green and went to work at the kitchen sink on an item off my latest purchase. Yes, you do have to wipe off with a towel soon after these items are rinsed, but a couple hours later after a thorough air drying, I wiped some oil on the parts before assembly. I was amazed at how clean these parts were. Using Varsol would always leave a dry residue, and have grit from previous items (since I used a small can to dip and rinse). With a clean water rinse, there's no residue or grit left, and now I have that pumped parts cleaner I've always wanted. I'm sold. Kevin Koepke ------- Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2001 16:54:49 EST From: catboat15x~xxaol.com Subject: Re: New lathe owner with questions... In a message dated 11/23/2001 tdmorgansrx~xxyahoo.com writes: > The owner's manual says use S.A.E. 20 in certain places weekly, > daily and so on. What is S.A.E. 20? And, since this lathe is old, > I am sure lubricants have been substantially improved since then SAE stands for the Society of Automotive Engineers. and is a measure of how "thick" the oil is. Go to a car parts place and ask for 20 weight NON DEGERGENT oil. It will be a cheap brand too. Don't think that you will doiing your lathe a favor by buying an expensive oil such as Mobil 1. You don't want all the additives in the more expensive motor oils. For the ways and slides get some "Way Oil" from one of the regular suppliers. Also use the cheap motor oil on the gears, not grease as swarf (chips) will stick to the grease and grind your gears. But, a good synthectic oil such as Mobil 1 makes a good cutting fluid as the heat of cutting does not drive it away from the work area. P.S. label your squirter oil cans so you will know which can contains which oil, I didn't now have unknown fluids in various cans. (The steam oil is much darker, but from there I am lost.) John Meacham California High Desert ------- Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2001 23:26:49 EST From: LADDERBARx~xxaol.com Subject: Re: Re: 12" Atlas - excessive vibration I use a product called MUSCLE. It's an additive made my lathe run smoother and 90% quieter. On the gears I mix it with a little way lube, use it straight on everything else. This stuff works great. I'll try to get more info if any wants it. The product is called MT-10 Metal Treatment. The address is Muscle Products Corp. 112 Fennell Drive Butler, PA. 16002. http://www.mpc-home.com Happy chip making Mike ------- Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2002 22:09:21 -0600 From: "Fred & Liz Lusen" Subject: Re: Oil or Lube? [atlas_craftsman] January 09, 2002 "rkueffer25" wrote: > I've had my 10" F series lathe for a couple of years and finally got > off my duff a couple of weeks ago and started tearing it apart, > cleaning, painting and replacing parts as I go. Right now I've got > the apron, tail stock and saddle apart & painted. I'm ready to start > putting them back together (before I forget how they went back > together) and I was wondering, how should I lube the mating surfaces, > should I use oil (10w non-detergent) or should I put something like a > moly lube on it as it won't be up & running for a couple of months > (hopefully). TIA Best thing to do is go to Guy Lautard's site http://www.lautard.com/ and get a copy of his "A Brief Treatise on Oiling Machine Tools" under the books bullet. It is well worth it. Fred ------- Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 07:07:29 +0000 From: Jon Elson Subject: Re: Oil or Lube? I used SAE 20W oil, as spec'd in the book. I have recently switched over to ISO VG 68 way oil, but I can't say if it is actually better for the bed and cross slide. The roller bearing headstock is supposed to use SAE 10W oil. Jon ------- Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 23:00:08 -0600 From: "jerdal" Subject: Re: Oil Can > Going back to the oiler topic for a moment, the trigger type oilers > are usually too clumsy for this job. Some general purpose oils are > sold in cans with a narrow screw-on spout and that works (back to the > hardware store !!!!!). I bought a small squeeze oil can from a local > sewing machine store (I know, but you have to be creative) used for > the inner bits of those machines. It has a see-thru narrow plastic > spout and is ideal for pushing down those little bearings without any > risk of damage. Having become irritated with the large nose on pump oil cans when oiling ball oilers, I made a replacement screw-on nose to do it. It is a needle- nose, with diameter large enough to seat on the hole, a taper sufficient to press the ball in but still allow seating, and a cross-cut on the tip, to allow the oil to escape into the oiler. Hardened after machining. Works quite well. Jerry ------- Date: Mon, 04 Feb 2002 23:50:25 -0000 From: "larrytbrunner" Subject: Rust/Corrosion Anyone wishing to free threads that are rusted, should try Oil of Wintergreen, available at the local drug store. I have a bottle in my shop and have used this with success for 40 years. ------- Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2002 21:47:30 -0500 From: Ken Jenkins Subject: Re: Opinion on lubricants With metals, except steel, when I use anything at all, I just spray WD-40 on. If it over-sprays all over the place .... fine, I just wipe everything down at the end. Steels are a whole different ballgame. I use turbine oil and take very fine cuts. Clean up after working with steel is much more meticulous. I like to make doubly sure all the swarf is removed from everywhere. Steel chips can get under and in things where they do real damage. I remember one tip that said use a powerful magnet inside a plastic baggy. After you pick up everything turn it inside out and toss it ... never tried it but it sounds pretty neat. Lubricants will help you achieve a better finish but sharp tooling makes much more of a difference in my opinion. They will definitely make tools last longer between sharpening but I don't run enough metal through my machine to make that a real concern. You can also try using "tapping fluid" especially formulated for aluminum. Ken Jenkins ------- Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2002 02:50:55 +0000 From: Jon Elson Subject: Re: Can someone explain oil cups and wicks? LouD31M066x~xxaol.com wrote: >> My knowledge is pretty thin in wicks. I got replacement material from Clausing because wicks in my 6" project lathe looked suspect. Others on web have used shoelaces. I don't think it much matters as long as wick is present to store oil and filter out dirt. I suppose material from an old under shirt would work as well. My understanding is a wick serves to allow oil to slowly drip on bearings rather than run right on thru. Wicks also serve to keep dirt from getting to bearings with oil. The idea is an old one and seems to meet the need. << The wick is not real critical on the roller bearing lathes. As long as the shields trap a little puddle of oil in the bearing, you just need to replenish the supply every day or so. It would work fine without the wick. Since some of the shields are pretty beat up, they may drain out quickly, and there the wick may be helpful. On Babbit bearings, the wick is VERY important, as the babbit bearings need a flow of oil to assure the journal is always wetted with a film of oil. If the film fails for even a second, bad news! The rollers and cage of the Timken bearings have a lot of little crevices to store oil, but the interior of the babbit bearing has none! Jon ------- Date: Fri, 3 May 2002 10:44:21 -0700 From: "Bob May" Subject: Re: lubricants, belts & pulleys A good lubricant for gears is the motorcycle chain lube. The stuff does a good job of lubrication and doesn't fling off like other oils do. Bob May http://nav.to/bobmay ------- Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 00:15:03 EDT From: catboat15x~xxaol.com Subject: Re: (unknown) 6/9/2002 redwitch1x~xxearthlink.net writes: > My current problem is the manual says to use SAE #10 The heavy 3 in 1 oil is about SAE 10. You do want to use non degergent oils because the degtergent oils are made to keep the crud in suspension so it can be removed as your car's oil pump forces the oil through the oil filter. On our bearings we are better off to let the crud lie and not circulate it since we don't have oil filters on our lathes. I would go with a 20 weight if I could not find 10 weight and your chances of finding a non-degergent oil may be better at a drug store (cheap oil) than an auto supply place. John Meacham California High Desert ------- Date: Sun, 9 Jun 2002 23:24:01 -0500 From: "Richard Meredith" Subject: Re: (unknown) Almost all farm supply stores and many garden centers carry the non-detergent oils in 10, 20, 30, and 40 weight. This is the specified oils for most of the smaller air cooled engines with splash lube systems. The light grades are for cold weather use such as snow blowers, so may not be stocked in the south. Sincerely, Rich ------- Date: Wed, 19 Jun 2002 23:44:14 -0400 From: "Bill Hardin" Subject: Gear Repack In finalizing a recent rebuild of a Craftsman 109, not able to readily put my hands on a container of "wheel bearing grease" that was around the shop somewhere, I bought a can of White Lithium Grease at the local Home Depot - the only grease they sold. I used it to re-pack the back gears. The container stated "for general automotive and industrial use", so it seemed appropriate. Big mistake. The unsealed gap between the pulley and back gear housing allowed the white mess to be distributed all over the table, belt, motor and surrounding area. So, before I go looking for the old familiar grease can, clean out the white goo, and start over, is there a difference in grades of this stuff? Is there a recommended grease to pack the back gear for this lathe? They didn't teach us electronics guys about grease. Thanks for any help or recommendations. Bill Sterling, VA ------- Date: Wed, 19 Jun 2002 23:02:26 -0500 From: "jerdal" Subject: Re: Gear Repack I think "packing" is not called for. Way too much grease is a big issue, as you found out. If you use direct (non-back gear), out it will come and as you found out, showers everything with a mess. I would apply a smear of good grease, like the lithium pressure grease to the teeth, and oil the bearings. You only need grease on the contact faces. Anywhere else is no help. Jerry PS, I am an "electronics guy" too.....currently SMPS and Class D audio work. Learn lots of "out of specialty" stuff, it makes you more valuable. I have done such odd things as a study of our packing material, as well as regular work. You never know. ------- Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 23:57:44 -0400 From: "Kenneth Mayer" Subject: Subject: Gear Repack For open gears, use only Open Gear Lube. MSC carries ~3 brands. It comes in a rattle can. After you clean up the mess, wash off all the old grease. Spray on a little Open Gear Lube while the gears are running. Use only enough to quiet the gears. Any more than that will cause it sling off. The lube is an asphalt-based material. There's also a synthetic version available. White lithium grease is used for assembly and for low speed moving parts. Ken :-) ------- Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2002 07:12:48 -0500 From: "jerdal" Subject: Re: Subject: Gear Repack Ken: BTW, these are really rather low speed gears, as they are a sun and planet speed reducer, and all the gears are enclosed in the outer ring gear. I never saw any slinging when regular bearing grease was put on in reasonable quantities. It "slings" to the ring gear, and is then returned to the sun gear as the planet gears turn. Your suggestion is very good for many open gears. However, these don't need specialized material. His slinging problem was due to "packing" the gear case (ring gear) with grease. The excess (probably 95% of what was in there) would then flow and sling out thru an annular gap. Jerry ------- Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2002 12:57:53 EDT From: toolroomtrusteex~xxaol.com Subject: Shaper oils My Atlas 7" shaper manual specified 20 weight and 10 weight oil. I found the 20 weight at a NAPA autoparts place but for the 10 wt I had to go to a local Shell distributor, he was kind enough to sell me a quart from a 5 gallon can that had a little left in it. Larry Murray ------- Date: Sat, 14 Sep 2002 15:16:06 +1200 From: Tom Subject: Re: Automatic Oil Accessory? jrw wrote: >> Art: I wonder about the chain saw oil for critical way lube service. The way lubes are compounded to reduce the 'stick-slip' characteristics of lube oil. Spend a few bucks and buy a gallon of the right "stuff". Joe << The best "way oil" is Mobil Vactra No. 2, all others just aren't in the hunt. I've even had other oil company reps admit it, too. Tom ------- Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 09:55:46 -0500 From: "David Booth" Subject: Re: New member [KROIL PENETRATING OIL] I have a spray can of this that my brother gave me for Christmas about five years ago. I didn't know it was readily available in the retail market, so I've been very sparing in my use of it (using it only as a last resort, etc.) Now that I know I can get more when this can runs out, I'll move it to the front of my oil shelf! You are correct about Kroil being good stuff. It seems to work when no other penetrating oil will. I last used it to remove the axle nut on the rear of a 1967 VW dropgate pickup truck. After letting Kroil soak in overnight, the nut came off without resorting to using a torch. For those of you unfamiliar with the older VW, perhaps a bit of explanation is in order. The alxe nut is BIG - I forget the metric size, but I use a big english (greater than 1-1/8") six point socket. The torque spec for this nut is 21 kg-M (150 ft-lb). The only reason to remove it is to replace brake shoes, or to do major work on the reducing gear or axle shaft. Needless to say, it rarely is loosened and is usually rusted in place. Usually, getting it off involves a welding torch to heat it up to a dull red, and a six-foot length of pipe on the wrench handle. (Wailing on it with a 1/2" drive air wrench at 90 psi has no effect except to deafen the operator.) With Kroil, I was able to get the nut off with just the wrench and pipe. I didn't even have to resort to propping the end of the pipe on the ground and driving the vehicle against it! ------- From: David Booth [mailto:dboothx~xxceiengineering.com] Sent: Friday, November 22, 2002 10:13 AM To: atlas_craftsmanx~xxyahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [atlas_craftsman] valve grinding attachments As a rule of thumb, I try to avoid using 3 IN 1 oil for anything. I figure it's like "one size fits all clothing" - The statement may be true, but it doesn't fit anything really well. That said, I keep 3 IN 1 on hand for those occasions when everything else in my bag of tricks, (which includes 10W-30, 20W-50, non-detergent 30W, Parrafin-Based 30W, ATF, Nye Clock Oil, Nye Watch Oil, WD-40, Sulphur Pipe Threading Oil, Honing Oil, Air Tool Oil, Brake Assembly Lube, Axle Grease, Anti-Seize, Molylube, Assembly Lube, Glycerine, White Lead, Kerosene, Mineral Oil, Water, Ivory Liquid Soap, Liquid Dishwash Detergent, Crisco, Lard, Vegetable Oil, Lanolin, Boiled or Raw Linseed Oil, High Heat Silicone Grease, Kroil Spray Penetrant, Beeswax, Candlewax, and Spit) is wrong. Mostly I use it for honing plane blades, wood chisels, and my pocket knife. On the other hand, my suspicion is the operative word in the statement "use XYZ for lubrication in the headstock" is lubrication. Even water would probably work if you had a way of getting enough of it into the bearing under enough pressure. I use 10W-30 in the headstock, the countershaft, and the motor because it is cheap, and it is what I happen to have the most of. ------- Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 10:47:00 -0500 From: Chabannes Rene N Contr ASC/YCD Subject: RE: valve grinding attachments I emailed the WD-40 company yesterday about 3 in 1 oil weight. They bought 3 in 1 several years back. Unlike WD-40, 3 in 1 was developed as a lubricant, rust preventer, and cleaner for bicycles in 1894. There are two versions: multipurpose and motor oil - I presume they mean electric. They are non-detergent and neither contains silicone. The multipurpose is 17 wt and the motor oil is 20 wt. Try this link for a little lub humor. http://www.octanecreative.com/WD40/#anchor2579647 Rene N. Chabannes (Titan) ASC/YC - Productions Operations C-17 SPO, WPAFB, OH 937-255-1042 (DSN 785-1042) ------- Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2002 20:08:28 -0800 From: Subject: Lube Info For the matter of Lubrication of Lathe Ways & Gibs... I personally use Hangsterfers Labs "Way Oil", purchased in 5 gal. bucket Hangsterfers offers the individual some good specifications on each of their products. Their products are at http://www.hangsterfers.com Check out all the links on the left of the page! In Washington State I know of at least one distributor.. but there are tons of others. If anyone wants more information, I can provide help with most of their products.They have all the MSDS and are fully ISO 9001 compliant. Their Tech support is wonderful, even with their phone staff. Emails and phone calls are returned promptly within a max of 8 hours but always within 24 hrs. except when thier office is closed. Their address is: 175 Ogden Rd. Mantua, NJ 08051 856-468-0216 Ph 856-468-0200 Fax Thanks Greg Bowne Seattle, WA ------- Date: Tue, 24 Dec 2002 08:43:40 -0500 From: Jim Ash Subject: Re: real newbe [CUTTING FLUID FOR ALUMINUM] WD40 is good for short-term uses like this, but heed the wipe up warning; it's hydroscopic (drawns moisture out of the air, like DOT 3 brake fluid). Don't leave it on long term or it can cause things to rust. I cut aluminum dry most of the time, but if I need cutting oil, I'm with Orrin; use kerosene. I've used a commercial product called Tap Magic for some of the 'stickier' materials like soft aluminum and copper, but it smells bad to me and it ain't cheap. Word of warning - Never ever use volatile fluids like gasoline. Maybe grandpa did it, but ask him why he's missing all those front teeth. Jim Ash ------- Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2002 21:23:57 -0800 From: "Orrin B. Iseminger" Subject: Re: real newbe I use kerosene for aluminum. If a bit gets splattered about, no problem. It will evaporate, slowly. Orrin ------- Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2003 10:47:06 -0800 From: John Sandhagen Subject: Re: Fingerprints on expensive instruments( was safety) >While we're on the subject of fingerprints on steel, I have a new >problem with measuring instruments. When I started doing machining >work in my early thirties, i worked with a guy who smoked heavily, and >he had highly acidic sweat, so guess who got to do most of the >measuring? Fortunately, most of our work was in plastic, so only >things like steel machinists squares and rulers would be affected. I >had no trouble with this, and left no etched fingerprints on anything. >After a break of a few years, I'm back machining and now have a >101.07403 lathe, I'm finding my rust marks on squares, rulers, even >the castiron top to my 1966 Delta table saw. At present I'm cleaning >it off as fast as it occurrs, and wax on the saw table helps, but I >don't want to start waxing squares and such. Does any one else have >this problem, and if so can anything be done about it? I live in Los >Angeles, so the air is normally pretty dry here, no rust caused by >humidity.Now i'm in my early fifties, I suppose some metabolic changes >have occurred to cause this, but i'm willing to change my diet if it'll >help. I heard that Brownells used to carry something for this, but no >longer do. (I can imagine you guys in humid places are saying, "only >rust on a few squares, what's the big deal!" :) >TIA Richard Medway in Los Angeles I have repair band instruments and have found many things contribute to the body chemistries ability to etch metal. Highly acidic diet, coffee, hot sauce (all my favorites). Also calm or agitated. Also make-up of drinking water. The only food I know of that is alkali (to counteract acid) is pears. You inherit much of this also, but that you can't change. My hands turn silver flutes black, have eaten thru my trombone twice and kill digital watches in six days. I live with it, calling it a patina. I use a digital caliper (plastic), use stainless steel tools where necessary. Oh well, John Sandhagen the Boneyard 524 E Bishop Pl. Claremont, CA 91711 1-909-869-3550 1-909-626-2796 ------- Date: Mon, 06 Jan 2003 13:19:05 -0600 From: Jon Elson Subject: Re: Fingerprints on expensive instruments( was safety) Well, I use LPS #1 as an anti-rust compound. I don't have the problem from sweat, skin oilor whatever. But, I do have to protect stuff from coolant, or just water getting where it shouldn't. (My shop is below the kitchen and a half-bath, and I've had water come through the ceiling several times. That dirty water is 10 X more corrosive, it seems!) But, if I can get the LPS #1 on it fast enough, there's no problem. Jon ------- Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2003 17:09:39 -0500 From: "mertbaker" Subject: Re: Fingerprints on expensive instruments( was safety) I have found that WD40 leaves a "varnish" on tools that seems to resist rust. This is an interesting phenomenon. I have seen kids who will leave rusty fingerprints on anything, and old geezers like me, who have no trouble at all. Doubt if if it's age related, but I will bet that diet has a lot to do with it. Mert ------- Date: Mon, 06 Jan 2003 20:06:14 -0000 From: "brewerpaul " Subject: Teflon lube for lathe? I just bought some Teflon lube, and was wondering if it would be good on my 6" Atlas. I use the lathe for woodworking, and oil on the ways, lead screw, etc, accumulates a LOT of dust and debris. This Teflon stuff is not gummy and should gather a lot less crud. It comes in a little squeeze bottle and is very handy to use too. ------- Date: Wed, 8 Jan 2003 08:13:04 -0600 From: "Microsoft mail Server" Subject: Re: Teflon lube for lathe? Be careful with Teflon lube on your lathe. It is not for use on sliding sufaces of the bedways. Use "way lubricant" or "way oil" instead. The Teflon can make things too slippery and cause the carriage to become hard to stop when threading or using power feed. This could cause a destructive crash of carriage into the headstock. You can try Teflon on the sliding surfaces of the compound, which do not have power feed, but way lube is a better choice. You can try Teflon on the lead screw and half nuts and carriage gears. But do a stopping test of carriage movement first to see if carriage stopping distance increases from Teflon. If so, use more conventional lubricant like "open gear" lube in a spray can. This usually is a form of molybdenum disulfide grease. Rethink using the lathe for woodturning. Try to get rubberized accordion folded covers for the bed area to keep off wood dust and chips. Look for "Gortite" brand bellows and covers from A&A Mfg. This is a robot/CNC accessory that must be custom made, but will save a lot of cleaning time and protect the lathe. Cost varies,but $100 to $200 quote is the price range for a small lathe like the Atlas 6 inch. HTH. James ------- Date: Wed, 8 Jan 2003 23:12:33 EST From: LouD31M066x~xxaol.com Subject: Re: Teflon lube for lathe? Teflon is made with Fluorine. It is a pretty stable product, but, I have a vague recollection it does breakdown when exposed to flame or an electrical arc. The breakdown products are as I recall either hydrofluoric acid or free fluorine both potentially troublesome and toxic. Not recommended to use teflon o rings in live steam engine models. louis ------- Date: Wed, 8 Jan 2003 22:46:02 -0600 From: "jerdal" Subject: Re: Teflon lube for lathe? > both potentially troublesome and toxic. Not recommended to use > teflon o rings in live steam engine models. There is teflon and teflon. Remember, what is on your fry pan is a teflon material, so steam unless highly superheated and under high pressure will not be a problem. But I don't think it meets the requirements for waylube. There are probably places for it, but unless applied in sheets as the way-refurb material is, I doubt you would want to use it. And with the sheet material, oil is still used. Everything has its best uses. Jerrold ------- Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2003 10:20:20 -0800 From: "Bob May" Subject: Re: Teflon lube for lathe? For piston rings and valve seals, teflon is quite adequate for the material to use. Remember that it takes some real heat to get the teflon to start separating and a little live steam isn't going to be doing anything to the stuff. The temp required is well beyond the temp that the stuff melts at and if you don't even get close to that, why worry about flourine and so forth coming off of it. Bob May http://nav.to/bobmay NEW! http://bobmay.astronomy.net ------- Date: Thu, 09 Jan 2003 12:12:19 -0600 From: Jon Elson Subject: Re: Atlas Lathe bearing oil Col. Zach Northway wrote: >What is the best oil(s) to use for my Atlas lathe main bearings. >(They are timkin [spelling?] bearings) My manual for the Craftsman 101.28900 and 101.28910 lathes says use SAE # 20 oil in the headstock (with Timken bearings). >And what should I use for oiling the ways, the back gears and any other >parts that need oil? Ways should use way oil, contrary to the manual. This can also be used in the leadscrews. Way oil will stay put on the ways, and provides lubrication long after plain oils have filmed off to the chip pan. The gears should use an open gear grease, Keystone #122 is listed in the manual, but every company has a similar lube, designed to stay on the gears in open gear trains. Jon ------- Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 17:42:06 -0500 From: Ron Fitzpatrick Subject: Way lubes Can't help but put my two cents worth on this very intriguing subject.I am a machinist by trade working at Stelco Steel located in Hamilton Ontario Canada for the last 28 years. In our machine shop (roughly the size of two Canadian sized football fields with over 200 N.C. and conventional machines) we use a light weight oil ( Harmony 100 ) spread on the ways of conventional machines by hand with a oil can at the start and finish of each shift. Remember that it is of utmost importance to thoroughly wipe down your machine each time you finish using it and apply a new coat of oil on the ways and you should have no wear issues. A properly machined and oiled machine actually rides on a micro film of oil not on metal to metal. Our Numerically Controlled machines have an automatic way lube system which lubes the ways according to a specified time interval but the oil we use in these applications (Tonna 220 or Tonna 68) is a much heavier oil more along the cosistancy of a Light Gear oil or a good cough syrup. Many of these machines have way surfaces not on the flat but on the vetical and horizontal planes. Also it might be noted that when I served my apprenticeship if you were caught filing on a lathe without some sort of protection covering the ways, be it paper or a rag etc. that would be grounds for disciplinary action. There is NOTHING harder on Lathe ways than the small particles being ground in from filing. ------- Date: Sat, 11 Jan 2003 20:17:59 -0000 From: "speedphoto300 " Subject: Re: Way lubes Flame away, but for years I've used a 50-50 mix of 40 weight motor oil and STP, a trip to the store and I have 2 quarts for less than 5 bucks. Haven't had a wear problem, either. Joe ------- Date: Sat, 11 Jan 2003 15:36:39 -0600 From: "M K (Skip) Campbell Jr." Subject: Re: Re: Way lubes Someone who is savvy about way oil and the stick/slip phenomenon should address this. I know enough to know that you can tighten the gibs tighter and still get smoother operation with way oil than with any other type oil. That is what it is designed for. That's about all I know about it. Skip Campbell Ft. Worth, Texas ------- Date: Sat, 11 Jan 2003 22:18:22 -0600 From: "jerdal" Subject: Re: Re: Way lubes > Minimum size 1 gallon sounds like a lifetime supply for me. Louis You might be surprised, ways need wiping and oiling pretty regularly to clear off crud. It works great on other similar applications like lead screws/halfnuts and so forth too. Works on Mills, lathes, shapers, and planers if you have one. Jerrold ------- Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 04:21:26 -0000 From: "patmack_1 " Subject: Re:oil question Leo, I have used 10W30 on all bearing surfaces and way oil on the ways of my Craftsman 6" for years with no problem. I got some gear lube from a machinery repair shop that made the gear train very quiet--very little needed. ------- Date: Sun, 26 Jan 2003 13:48:10 -0000 From: "Thomas E. Jones " Subject: Oil, Grease, Teflon Grease on Tools... Hello: The latest sherline mill and lathe instructions describe Teflon grease, which Sherline has recently begun using in their own shop, and which they pre-grease all of their lathe and mills prior to leaving the factory. They then say they "strongly recommend it." This seems to be contrary to their prior recommendations: the machines ship with thick grease so it stays on, but then the customer uses light oil (sewing machine oil) during regular use. I've been using this Teflon for about a year, and I'm not entirely happy with it. The parts seem to slide well, but chips and dust stick in this thicker grease too easy, and it's hard to clean off my machines. I wonder if this higher viscosity grease makes machine stiffer, but maybe the Teflon properties makes sliding even easier than light oil. Has anyone used both, and have any comments. I'm thinking about going back to light oil, but don't know. tj. ------- Date: Sun, 26 Jan 2003 14:26:04 -0000 From: "ptlarry2003 " Subject: Re: Oil, Grease, Teflon Grease on Tools... Instead of using light oil, I use Super-Lube Synthetic Lubricant which is made by the same company as the grease. I find that after using the lubricant it leaves a thin film over the machine which will allow clean up to be fast as metal chips will not stick to the PTFP base oil. I live on the east coast and found Lowes has it or you can go to www.super-lube.com to order it. Larry M. ------- Date: Sun, 26 Jan 2003 14:23:39 EST From: joeb759x~xxaol.com Subject: Re: Re: Oil, Grease, Teflon Grease on Tools... Larry: Is this the super lube that you spray on? If so, you are correct regarding the dryness of the product after application. I use both the spray and the grease depending on where I need to apply it. I purchased mine in a local hobby shop but if i'm not mistaken, I also seen it listed in MSC's big book. Joe Baker Brookfield Ct. [Yes it is, I use try DRI-LUBE instead of the grease which is also made by them. Larry M.] ------- Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2003 07:43:39 -0800 (PST) From: Pete Brown Subject: Another question : Waxing (was Re: Re: Finally got my SHERLINE mill today) Thanks for the info. On my wood tools (my drill press with cast iron table, for example) I wax the surfaces with a paste wax. It helps the wood move more easily, and also helps provide some protection against rust. I suspect I don't need to do that with the mill/lathe surfaces, but I thought I'd ask here to make sure. So, do any of you folks put anything (such as wax) on your mill/lathe surfaces to protect them? Pete ------- Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2003 07:56:36 -0800 From: "Dave Hylands" Subject: RE: Another question : Waxing (was Re: Re: Finally got my mill today) I use a product called "Marvel Mystery Oil". It's an oil additive that has rust inhibitors. Some more info can be found here: http://www.foximas.com/auto/marvel-mystery-oil--16-oz.htm I buy it from my local Canadian Tire Store. I use it on all of the steel parts, like the 3/4 jaw chucks, end mill holders, etc. I also use it my ways. I have a couple of old rags I use just for putting some oil on and then wiping the parts with. The anodized aluminum parts don't really need anything. Dave Hylands Vancouver, BC, Canada http://www.DaveHylands.com/ ------- Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2003 16:03:35 -0000 From: "buchnerb " Subject: Another question : Waxing (was Re: Re: Finally got my mill today) I've only had my Sherline equipment for a little over a year and am a newbie but I wouldn't wax any of the table surfaces. With your wood working tools you want to be able to move the wood. With metal working tools your work must be securely clamped down to the table before touching it with a tool or you or your work could be hurt. The tables are made of anodized aluminium and will not rust. Follow the lubrication guidance that came with your machines and keep the lead screws and ways lubricated. I use "Break Free" gun lubricant on mine and it works great. Spindle bearings are sealed and do not require lubrication. I'm sure many of the group members who have had their equipment for long periods can give more tips. Bruce Buchner ------- Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2003 22:49:23 +0000 From: Brian Squibb Subject: Re: gear grease 27/03/2003 -0600, you wrote: >> The "Manual of Lathe Operation" that came with each lathe when new states both types of lubricant. Oil , (S.A.E. 20 wt. machine oil) where the gears run on the shafts and grease, (Lubriplate Heavy Duty Gear Shield is one type that can be substituted) where the gears run tooth on tooth. << If the manual was re-written now some 60 years on it would be talking about 20/50 and moly grease - neither of these were around in the 1940's. Dont use any other grease than moly, which is THE grease for gears and slow moving CV joints. Brian ------- Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2003 15:23:32 -0800 From: "Rolynn Prechtl K7DFW" Subject: Re: gear grease > I would use LM grease in the headstock bearings LM grease = Lithium-Moly Grease Moly grease = Lithium based grease containing molybdenum disulphide We are speaking of the same thing. Rolynn ------- Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2003 00:19:25 +0000 From: Brian Squibb Subject: Re: gear grease Ah - UK/USA difference - LM grease is high melting point. Moly is low melting point. Brian ------- Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2003 23:19:59 EST From: catboat15x~xxaol.com Subject: Re: Digest Number 1415 For ways there is Way Oil and for the various oil holes use the cheap 20 weight non-degergent oil from an auto supply place. I am of two thoughts about gear lube. Some say grease will allow chips and junk to stick to the gears (they must throw even more swarf than I do) so recommend oil. Lately I have been spraying with one of those teflon dry lubes, goes on wet but drys to leave a thin coat of a dry lube on the gear teeth. Remember too some oil holes on the Atlas are not visible, there is one in the head stock pulley cluster down in the bottom of one of the pulleys, it is hidden under a setscrew, but it is important when using back gear when the pulley cluster rotates on the spindle. I would sure recomend getting a manual from Clausing I know those are available, but don't know about the Clausing. ------- Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2003 08:43:19 +0000 From: Brian Squibb Subject: Re: gear grease I think I would avoid grease on the bed as it might turn into grinding paste. Brian ------- Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 17:06:31 -0500 From: jrw Subject: Re: Re: German A.H.E - update [SHAPER] Forget the standard automotive engine lubes for shapers, lathes and mills. Quality lube oils are not much different in acquisition cost. The automotive lubes are compounded to keep the products of combustion particulate matter in suspension and counteract acids formed during the alternate hot and cold cycles. The hydraulic types are set up with corrosion inhibitors while the Way oils have additives to reduce the "stick-slip" characteristic of sliding surfaces and can maintain a good oil film with the heavy slow motion loads. If you had a good filter it would help with any lube. Joe ------- Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2003 03:16:04 -0000 From: "kndroy" Subject: 7" Shaper grease I searched the archives for 'shaper grease' and got nothing back so I will ask the group. What should I repack the Timken bearings in my Atlas 7" shaper with? I have a tub of Shell Alvania Grease II that I put in my lathe's bearings with a needle tip on my grease gun. I also have moly grease for my car's wheel bearings. I just follow the manuals and don't know exactly why one is better than the other. Thanks for the help. Dave ------- Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2003 06:27:22 +0100 From: Brian Squibb Subject: Re: 7" Shaper grease I use moly grease that is used for the wheel bearings on my 10F. IMHO if no swarf can get in the bearings then this is the best way to go. This is the high melting point variety of moly grease. The other moly grease is the high pressure stuff that is ideal for the gears. Brian ------- Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2003 00:50:11 -0500 From: "Randy Pedersen" Subject: Re: Change gear lubrication? This is what I have found for change over from the old lubes to what is available today. Hope this is what you need Randy Pedersen Salina, Ks Atlas 618 South Bend 1946 9" A, 1938 9" C Enco 1105 Mill Drill Machining Lubes: =========== Spindle Oils Mobil DTE 26 Product Code: 602645 ISO VG68 Mobil Velocite No. 10 =========== Way Oil Mobil Vactra #2 =========== Change Gear Lube Lubriplate www.lubriplate.com Heavy Duty Gear Shield SPRAY CAN-----#L0152-0063 TUBE (CAULKING TYPE)-----L0152-000 Keystone Lube www.keystonelurbicants.com Keystone Moly-29 Mobil www.mobil.com Mobil tach 375-NC Exxon www.exxon.com dynagear spray ------- Date: Sun, 18 May 2003 07:07:12 -0000 From: "bschwand" Subject: Re: Two Questions In taigtoolsx~xxyahoogroups.com, Don Rogers wrote: > As I am somewhat new to the group, these questions may have been > answered before. First. What coolant do you use, and what schemes >are in use to keep it contained and routed back to the reservoir? I use LPS natural http://www.lpslabs.com/Products/CuttingFluids/Nat_Gold.asp#Product1Code as cutting fluid. I guess I do not use enough to qualify as coolant, so there is no need for a return path. Just a few squirts from time to time. Works great for me. Among the advantages I found compared to most cutting/lubricating fluids available: - biodegradable - contains no harmful chemicals - does not smell bad - available in less than 5 gallon jugs :-) - reasonable price (i pint is ~$6 at use-enco.com) - the pint-size bottle shape and nozzle allows to squirt directly on the area to lubricate usual disclaimer: I am not affiliated in any way with this product or its manufacturer. bruno ------- Date: Wed, 28 May 2003 14:14:27 -0000 From: "n2562001" Subject: Re: Sherline lubricant Since everyone else has shared there experience I share mine. I have used my lathe and mill at least two hours a day for the last ten or twelve years. During that time after every other use, I have sprayed the lead screws with Justice Brothers spray grease. ( They sell to auto repair shops) The grease stays put and seems to constantly form a grease seal around the lead screw nuts. I have never had a chip problem with this grease. In fact I am still using the original lead screws and nuts. Jerry Kieffer ------- Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 23:51:11 -0500 From: Jon Elson Subject: Re: Lubrication [atlas_craftsman] >How religously does the lubrication schedual need to be adhered to? >Typically, I'm using my late model 12" w/timkens for quick fix up >jobs or projects around the house maybe two or three times a week. >The average run time <1/2 hour, sometimes 5 minutes.Every couple of >weeks or so I do a thorough cleaning and complete daily / weekly / >monthly lubrication.I always visually inspect headstock and drive >gears for oil/grease films. Would it be advised to go through the >daily lube regimen for 5-10 minute light duty job? I ALWAYS lube those parts of the machine that I will use, EVERY time I use it. I think the Timken bearings hold oil in them for quite a while, but I don't know for sure. I assume everything else loses most of its oil film over 24 hours or so. I especially clean and lube the bed and cross- slide every time I use it. I admit I don't lube every oil hole in the apron unless I'm doing a long job. I don't do anything on the main leadscrew unless I will use it, and I don't always oil the cross-slide and compound screws and nuts. There are even some "secret" lube points, like the Craftsman 12" back gear shaft, that you have to pull out a round cover to get at, or the countershaft that has an oil cup in the middle, between the two pulleys. There's also an oil hole for the 4-step pulley in the bottom of one of the pulley holes. That is needed only when using the back gear. But, I really try to lube it properly, as I'm sure that not taking the time to properly lube a machine is one of the surest ways to wreck it, although a bit slowly. Remember that NOTHING on these lathes is hardened. Jon ------- Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 22:36:34 -0500 From: "Al Lenz" Subject: RE: Help With Various Stuck Stuff! [sherline group] Bob: This may not help at the moment, but there is a product called 'Aero Kroil' that is absolutely the darndest penetrating oil that you can imagine. I just used it on an exhaust system that hadn't been disturbed in ten years and after a light tap with a wrench, the nuts came off by hand and they were WELL rusted in place. This stuff is in an entirely different league from liquid wrench and the other penetrating oils. And no, I have no connection with the product, but found out about it from one of the forums that I belong to. It is an industrial product and not found on the shelf. http://www.kanolabs.com/ Al Lenz PS If you get a can and don't like it I will buy it from you. I'm about out! ------- Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 07:27:10 -0000 From: "cush66" Subject: Re: Help With Various Stuck Stuff! I will second that about Kroil being good stuff! I use it also to clean rifle and handgun bores but not all the time. You have to be careful if you use it as a general purpose lubricant because it creeps into everything and everywhere which is not good for some things. ------- Date: Sat, 30 Aug 2003 14:19:33 -1000 (HST) From: Tom Benedict Subject: Re: steel protection from rusting I've used Boeshield to protect steel. It's a dry lube that leaves a waxy residue once it dries. You'd have to get all of it off if you did decide to paint the parts, but it'd protect them until you decide what you want to do. If it's any indicator for how well this works, when I packed up my shop to move, I sprayed down all my tools with Boeshield. My shaper, which is in the middle of a restoration project, had lots of bare cast iron that was being re-scraped (= rust prone). After packing up my shop, everything was trucked to California right around the time of the dock worker's strike. I was told some of my crates wound up out on the docks for over a month. After they did get shipped out here, they were put into storage right before the winter storms hit (winter here is wet, not necessarily cold). By the time I got to unpack, most of my tools had been in 50-75% humidity for almost six months. When I unpacked my shaper, I expected to see a mass of rust and pitting. I was happily disappointed. Not one spot of rust on a single tool. No, I don't work for Boeing (the folks who make Boeshield). I've just had my tools saved by it, and I'm a happy repeat customer. Tom ------- Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2003 00:29:55 -0700 From: "Carol & Jerry Jankura" Subject: RE: steel protection from rusting Folks: While I haven't tested BoeShield nearly as thoroughly as Tom has, I can also recommend it. I'm using it on my ShopSmith and other wood- working tools and it has done a really good job of preventing any rust. One thing - if you use it with woodworking tools, let it dry, then buff the residue off until it no longer has that 'tacky' feel; otherwise, Boeshield acts as a really good sawdust magnet. Jerry ------- Date: Fri, 05 Sep 2003 02:52:25 -0000 From: "al_messer" Subject: Cutting lubricate I've been using some Rigid Brand Dark Threading Compound when cutting steel on my shaper and it seems to do very well, What do others of you use? ------- Date: Fri, 05 Sep 2003 04:29:51 -0000 From: "dreilanderecht" Subject: Re: Cutting lubricate For steel I usually drip on a bit of ordinary soluble oil, which is diluted with water by guesstimate to about one tenth oil. This is as much a coolant as a lubricant, and indeed I really wonder how much lubrication can actually occur where it is really needed...how does oil get into the place where the edge is cutting, since it is deep within the steel? I think threading compound on taps/dies is a bit different since it also helps lubricate the tap against the already cut thread, and there is time at the slow speed for capillary action to carry some into the narrow gaps too. It certainly helps prevent breaking them. I really wonder if any useful "lubrication" takes place at lathe, shaper, and mill cutting speeds. But on the other hand, anything that helps cool the job and the tool will reduce the temperature at the cutting edge, even if it never penetrates in to the actual point. If the tool is being pushed towards its temperature limit, as would be the case in production work, then cooling will let you run it that little bit faster before disaster occurs. Since the edge going soft is a change of state, a relatively small increase in temperature could be the difference between the tool going blunt and lasting well. regards John ------- From: n8as1x~xxa... Date: Fri Sep 5, 2003 6:23 pm Subject: Re: [Metal_Shapers] Re: Cutting lubricate al......i have abt 4 coffeecans of lard in the freezer ( hog killing time ,2 yrs ago) & find that it DOES make a difference in finish cuts on both lathe & shaper ....(only for finish cuts on shaper, otherwise work dry.)...bacon grease works as well , but neither ,i think any better than the dark rigid oil i have used ,just cheaper ( caution , bird dogs try to eat cuttings !) .........OLD/ dirtier the better, tractor/truck engine oil is used for lathe coolant /cutting , also worked great cutting a set of gears on little horiz. mill .......waiting for a chemist /engineer to tell me why DIRTY oil works better than clean (maybe sulfur in it ) , but it does cut better .... ....lard is GREAT for tapping as well as crisco...... used it 50 yrs ago for tapping hardened rifle receivers.... ( pulls chips out of blind holes ,x/cept in summer( runs ) ......think the earliest lubes used were tallow ( beef fat rendered out)...& other animal oils......... i reckon ,since osha pulled the "dangerous" commercial products , they had to go back to animal /synthetic oils) .............oh yeah , price is right !!!!... ....take ur pick ....dirty stained hands or odorous ones! best wishes docn8as ------- Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2003 15:34:52 -0400 From: Stan Stocker Subject: Re: Way Lube and Cutting Oil for 6" Craftsman Lathe [NOTE: AND FOR OTHER MACHINES] > Simple questions about way lube and cutting oil: What kind? How > thick? How much? Where from? Easy answers: Mobil Vactra #2 Way Oil, around $10 a gallon from Enco. I keep it in a pump oil can so I can use it on the oil fittings on my mill also. Just a squirt on the ways and run the carriage over it. After work I usually clean off any swarf, put a good dollop on the ways towards the tailstock and run the carriage away from the headstock. Clen up the ways again, and repeat with the oil going on the headstock side of the carriage. Spreads it out and runs bits of stuff to each end of the bed for easy clean off. You can brush it on if you prefer. Way oil goes only on the ways, not on gears or in the apron! Cutting oils: Wide open! Kerosene or WD40 for aluminum. Cutting / threading oil for steel. I use Mitee brand, as it's sold in gallons at my local hardware store. I often thin it 50-50 with kerosene. No lube for cast iron or brass. Butter or half and half for copper (messy, works.) Tapmajic, Cool Tool II, soluble oils, all sorts of options. For most of my work kero or plain old cutting oil works well. I do use tapmajic for threading aluminum. Usually I apply with a flux brush. I buy them in boxes or either 100 or a gross for under $20. I also keep kerosene in a nalgene wash bottle for use when boring deep into aluminum, you can flush out swarf with a squirt. Cheers, Stan ------- Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2003 12:47:17 -0700 From: "Gregory Bowne" Subject: Re: Way Lube and Cutting Oil for 6" Craftsman Lathe Hangsterfers Labs Way Oil #2 Hangsterfers Labs Crystal Cut 322 Lindsay Industrial Tool, Inc. 619 8th Ave. South Seattle, WA 98104 1(206)622-6720 Webpage: www.hangsterfers.com Cutting Oils: http://www.hangsterfers.com/cutting_oils.asp Coolant: http://www.hangsterfers.com/coolant_concentrate.asp Thanks, Greg Bowne ------- Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2003 19:51:15 -0000 From: "azbruno" Subject: Re: Way Lube and Cutting Oil for 6" Craftsman Lathe For the lathe itself, I use Mobil Vactra #2 Way oil, Mobil Velocite #10 spindle oil, and Lubriplate Heavy Duty Gear Shield for the open gears. The mobil oils are available in gallons from Enco, MSC etc. A gallon will last a lifetime, I'm sure. The Lubriplate is available from MSC. I got the tube and use a caulking gun. There is also a spray version. Cool Tool II for cutting oil. -Bruno ------- Date: Sat, 27 Sep 2003 18:22:38 -0000 From: "Jim Knighton" Subject: Re: Cutting oil It seems that the threads regarding cutting oils generate a lot of discussion. I've seen that both here and in other forums. I've also seen a lot of home-brew and "old-time" recipes and checked out some so-called commercial products. In a lot of these it seems that mineral oil is used as the base mixed with other additives. Just for grins I decided to dispense with the additives and try plain mineral oil. For what its worth, I can't see that its any less effective than the commercial products and its a whole lot less expensive. Any comments or suggestions here? Jim Knighton ------- Date: Sat, 27 Sep 2003 16:44:19 -0700 From: k6sufx~xxdirecway.com Subject: Re: Re: Cutting oil I have some of the commercial cutting oil that you mix with water, bought it along with my way oil, but never used it. Had lots of good results with plain hardware sulphurized pipe threading oil and also with Shell, Fire and Ice or Mobil 1. The synthetic motor oils are formulated to stay on the surface when the heat builds up and do tend to stay with the cut and not flow away. Cutting oils provide two things, make a lube layer between tool and work and cool the tool. Again I emphasise that there is a big difference between making 100,000 identical parts for every Toyota on the road and our hobby where we may never make the same part more than two times or so. ------- Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2003 00:42:25 -0500 (EST) From: otisnwoox~xxcavtel.net Subject: Re: Re: What oil for rust prevention? >I just rehabbed a 1950's era Webster-Whitcomb jewelers lathe and >wanted to protect the 6-way jaw and 50 + collets and other accessories Evidently there aren't many firearms enthusiasts among you at this forum. The gun manufacturers have had to contend with the rust problem for a very long time and they have become quite good at it.Carbon steel based firearms (as opposed to stainless firearms) are usually shipped with a piece of special paper in the box which is called "vapor phase inhibitor paper", and this paper contains a chemical compound (petroleum based, I believe) that gives off vapors that prevent rust from forming on iron or steel if the metal to be protected is enclosed (as in a box or plastic bag) and kept from the surrounding atmosphere. Brownell's sells "rust blox" which incorporate this technology, as well as a rust preventive oil called "rust preventive #2" which costs $17.82 for a pint but is well worth it. I have been using this product for years to wipe down my lathes and other tools after use and have no problem with rust on my machinery, even though the machines are in my very damp basement and would otherwise rust quickly. I keep the machines covered with plastic sheeting following an application of this oil and this keeps the protective vapor around the machine. HTH. Curtis ------- Date: Mon, 08 Dec 2003 16:56:09 -0500 From: Gord and Doreen Smith Subject: Lube for Aluminum Cutting Hi All, when I had some difficulty cutting, drilling and tapping some Al. bases my local machinist (has his own fabricating company) advised liquid soap as the best lubricant. Tried it - completely successful even though I had to rig a catch basin so the soap would not get thrown everywhere. I tried diluting it --bad decision -- just made it easier to throw around the shop. Gordo Canada ------- Subject: Re: Raising an Etch [oldtools list] From: John Lederer Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2004 10:03:07 -0600 Jerry Palmer wrote: >I cleaned the vinegar off real good and put a light coat of linseed oil >on as I was fresh out of WD-40 and gotta coat em with somethin. That >brings up the question of, What sort of oil etc to put on blades to keep >the rust from comin back. We're headin into the rainy springtime and ... I have been conducting experiments on rust in my workshed [hand tools] So far the winners are: 1. "Fogging oil" wiped on with a rag. This is an oil with high coating and durability used in engines that will be stored for protracted times. The Borg has sray cans of it. I begged a pint from a racing shop nearby that had a 5 gallon can of the stuff. 2. "Custom blend #3" By approx volume: 8 parts beeswax, 2 parts carnauba, 2 parts orange oil, 2 parts air tool oil, 2-3 parts turpentine. In the winter (unheated) shop I pour a little additonal turp on the top of the mixture -- which gives me a soft layer on top. Wd40 was not particularly good -- the protection was lost unless you really glopped it on in which case you ended up with a sticky dirt attracting coating (WD40 seems to have a lot of volatile solvent that evaporates with time). I warm the tool when temps are low before applying the custom blend with a rag. The Custom Blend #3 can clean a bit as well as preserve and I also use it on wood, though I use a different blend on all wood things. Others tried: Marvel Mystery Oil Motor Oil Lithium "white" grease Three or four custom blends Several brand name rust protectants John Lederer ------- NOTE TO FILE: The prior message used the term "BORG" which is a Galoot nickname for that popular hardware retailer also known as Home Despot. BORG stands for "Big Orange Retail Giant" -- assimilates smaller retail stores and resistance is futile. ------- Subject: Re: Wax recommendation From: "Daniel E.L. Yurwit" Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2004 14:11:20 -0500 Mike requested recommendations for >>a good choice for all around shop wax? I hate the smell of the Minwax. << Talk about a can of worms (or is that wax?) The only one I've used for years is Butcher's Wax; either their Bowling Alley Wax, which is clear, or their Boston Polish, which has a slight amber tint. A can last a long time, I don't find the smell offensive (but it dissipates quickly anyway,) and I do like the finished appearance, either on raw wood or a variety of finished surfaces. It holds up reasonably well, and is very easily renewed. Even seems to have somewhat of a cleaning effect. (They say is "a mix of carnauba wax, other waxes, turpentine, and mineral spirits.") No affiliation.....and all that blarney. (But I may try to sell this to them as an ad!) Dan, in NJ ------- Subject: RE: Wax recommendation From: "Jon Endres, PE" Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2004 16:44:19 -0500 Butcher's Paste Wax, made by S C Johnson. Good stuff, non-silicone, use it on cast iron m*ch*n*ry surfaces to prevent rust, as well as general wax use. Jon Endres, PE West Mountain Engineering ------- Subject: Re: Wax recommendation From: "Charlie Driggs" Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2004 17:29:44 -0500 A bunch of votes for Butcher's Wax. In my case, I primarily use two waxes ... good ol' Johnson's Wax for knobs, handles, tools, etc., primarily because I had one good sized can of it for years and inherited another nearly unused one. Can't beat the price, and it works well. Johnson's is a little softer than Butchers, I think. However, on very nice project surfaces, I switched to Mylands quite a few years ago when it was introduced here. Costs a bit more than Butchers or Briwax, but I like the result better. Also figure if the British monarchy uses it for their modest collection of antique furniture (so Mylands claims) it can't be bad. But for some jobs, such as attempting to impart an aged look, the tinted Briwaxs are the right thing to use. Pick the right wax for the intended use. Just one isn't enough for everything. Charlie Driggs Newark DE ------- Date: Thu, 13 May 2004 04:51:05 -0000 From: "jjjorg1" Subject: Re: Lubrication In atlas_craftsmanx~xxyahoogroups.com, "carbure2003" wrote: > The lube chart I have stipulates SAE 20 oil in all oil cups. > For gearing, it lists Keystone 122 gear lubricant. (never found any > equivalent) Guy Cadrin Keystone replaced 122 gear lubricant with Moly 29 Open Gear compound. For the bearings, you could use KLC antiwear 68 or similar hydraulic type SAE 20 weight oil. Keystone website is www.keystonelubricants.com. Also, Atlas lubrication info is available at www.atlas-press.com/servicebulletins.htm. Joel. ------- NOTE TO FILE: It got a bit quiet during the summer so Jerry in the Sherline group decided to stir the pot with some positive comments about WD-40. These are the first two messages and show some experience, not just opinion. For more on this thread, see the Sherline group starting 24 June 2004. Your opinion may vary.] ------- Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2004 02:46:26 -0000 From: "n2562001" Subject: WD-40 Since this group has been quiet lately it is probably a good time to stir the pot with my favorite WD-40 story. First let me say I have no allegiance to anything unless it will do what I want it to or it makes me look good. ( A rough job to say the least) While working for a local Public Utility for 35 years, I handled large and small machine shop accounts since I was the only one in our company group that at least knew what a machine tool was. During that time it seemed like I was forever running into salesman who wanted our company to use their latest and greatest product. A good percentage of these were metal protective and lubricant spray products. The Up side to all of this was that I got to keep all of the free samples. Thus I have at least one can of everything that I have ever seen for sale in the last 35 years. I think about 30 different brands some no longer in business. When building models I do a lot of bead and sandblasting of the metal parts to clean up silver solder joints and make them appear like castings. The problem is to protect the metal until it is painted witch in my case can be years. Since I constantly work with the parts I do not want a heavy messy coat of anything. I just need a quick spray coat of something at the end of the day that will protect the metal until I work on it again. So awhile back I ask about a dozen or so-called experts (they acted like they were) what the best product would be. I got about two dozen opinions, no two the same except they all said don`t use WD-40. Since I had a can of everything that was suggested I decided to do my own experiment. I blasted a couple of dozen pieces of metal, sprayed each one with a different product and set them outside for a week. I actually got lucky and it rained a couple of times that week. By the middle of the week two thirds of the pieces had a light rust coat on them. By the end of the week only one piece didn`t have rust on it, the piece marked WD-40. Since everybody has always told me never to use WD-40 I thought that was kind of interesting. The other interesting thing was that the WD-40 lable was the only one that didn`t claim to cure everything except marriage problems. Personally I have always found WD-40 to be just as effective as similar more expensive products. Jerry Kieffer ------- Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2004 04:26:04 -0500 From: "Scott Peterson" Subject: Re: WD-40 The first bubble in the pot: The print shop where I worked for five years, before it belly-upped, had its bindery in a non-climate-controlled building for a while when we outgrew our old digs. The place was beastly humid a lot of the time during the summer and the roof leaked over the rearmost part of the cutter I worked on. (not an ideal circumstace by far!) The bed of this machine was of cast iron and about fifty by sixty inches. The rearmost part of the bed saw little action (other than the leaking of the roof) as the paper that we usually cut was a maximum of 30 inches long. That table was "WD'd" religiously every week when the knife was changed. The surface did have a very faint brownish tint to it...but never a hint of rust and the puddled water could just be squeegeed off leaving no ill effect. The "WD" in WD-40 does stand for "Water Displacement", after all. I have a can handy and use it in the same manner as Jerry does. For "pack-it-up-for-eternity" purposes, I tend to use a penetrating "open gear and wire rope lube"...don't touch ANYTHING else before you clean yourself up! A quote from the "WD-40 Fan Club" website... http://fanclub.wd40.com/ (admittedly, a company site) WD-40 literally stands for Water Displacement, 40th attempt. That's the name straight out of the lab book used by the chemist who developed WD-40 back in 1953. The chemist, Norm Larsen, was attempting to concoct a formula to prevent corrosion -- a task which is done by displacing water. Norm's persistence paid off when he perfected the formula on his 40th try. Regards, Scott...Northwoods, Wisconsin ------- Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 15:10:07 -0400 From: Paul Anderson Subject: Re: Re: Lubrication > Get some Vectra or equivilent "way and slide" oil. This oil takes the > grit and dirt and pushes it out. Also, Shell Telus brand hydraulic oil is an *excellent* oil for lathe ways. I've worked in many a machine shop that used it, and it's worked very well in my experience. Paul Anderson ------- Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2004 17:51:58 -0800 From: "Hacendado" Subject: Lathe gear lubrication JE Worman wrote about spray gear lubricant: > It's an blue and white aerosol can with a NAPA logo on > the top. The NAPA stock number is 765-1366. > It's called "SPRAY LUBE FOR OPEN GEARS" John, thanks for this information. I'll see if it's still available. All best, Steven ------- Date: Fri, 24 Dec 2004 00:07:52 -0000 From: "joe_sozanski" Subject: Oil Cups [Metal_Shapers group] Anybody else get tired of some to the exisiing oil cups located in hard to reach places on machines and alter them? On the Atlas shaper the one on the countershaft is right under the drip tray and a bit annoying to get to. I turned down a piece of stock to fit the countershaft housing, drilled a blind hole, then one from the side at about 45 deg. I soldered a piece of tubing there and one on the opposite end for the oil cup. Now the oil actually gets in the cup! Last year I added oil cups and tubing to the 4 drilled holes in the frame. They drip right on the link pin and bushing. Joe ------- Date: Fri, 24 Dec 2004 17:30:31 -0000 From: "Don Kinzer" Subject: Re: Oil Cups A previous owner did something similar on my Atlas for the countershaft oiler using some 1/8" pipe and fittings. Here is link to a picture of the setup: http://tinyurl.com/5zt85 Full link: http://www.kinzers.com/don/MachineTools/Atlas_7B_Shaper/atlas_oiler.jpg Don in Portland, OR ------- Date: Sat, 25 Dec 2004 00:36:56 -0000 From: "joe_sozanski" Subject: Re: Oil Cups "grouchy_old_fred" wrote: > I've been thinking about doing something similar, after deciding that > a single-point oiler would be too much fooling around with the > different oiling rates. What size tubing did you use? Copper? I was > thinking about using tubing big enough to put a spring-cap cup on top > so it would look like it 'fit' with the machine. > Of course, this will require a new paint job too! 8^) > Also looking at adding flaps/shrouds to keep chips out of places > where they have obviously caused damage in the shaper's past. Fred Fred, I used 3/8 brass tubing and threaded the outside piece 1/4-20 and tapped the inner one. I used assored bits and pieces of tubing about 3/16 od. The soldering isn't to good the soldering iron is to small and the torch I have a bit overkill on small stuff. I'll post some pics under Atlas Oil Cups if there's still space left I notice the pix site is getting pretty full. I haven't got around to painting yet. Making chips is more fun! Joe ------- Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 17:27:42 -0000 From: "larry_galvin" Subject: Re: Slightly off topic--Bridgeport shaper head [Metal_Shapers group] "James L. Hainline" wrote: > I have a Bridgeport E head (shaper) that I recently acquired. The > gearbox is low on oil. The only literature I have calls for a 600w > gear or steam oil. Jim, I think that you will find that Mobil SHC 634 will do the job for you. A few years back I did a bunch of reserch at work and found that this synthetic oil would work in all worm boxes that we had and was supported by all the manufactures of the various gearboxes we have at work. So at this point in time that is the standard oil that we use in all, literally hundreds, the gearboxes at work. lg ------- Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 20:15:52 -0000 From: volzmechatronicx~xxyahoo.com Subject: Re: Slightly off topic--Bridgeport shaper head A purloined copy of Texaco's "Lubrication Recommendation Handbook", 1996 Edition, lists at Bridgeport Machines, under Vertical Milling Machines, for Power Feeds and SHAPING Attachments, their "Meropa 460". "460" is a key part of this puzzle. http://www.prod.exxonmobil.com/lubes/marine/products/mn_mineral_lubric ants.html -- --Under "Steam Cylinder Oil" is listed "Mobil 600W Sup, Cylinder Oil" with an ISO viscosity grade of "460" = ISO 460. --Under "Gear Oils" is listed "Mobil Gear 634" with ISO 460. There are two lubrication files in "Files" here that I originally stole from Scott's Lathe_List group: --ple0105lube.pdf which lists under "worm gear oil" some interchangeable manufacturers' lubes. Texaco has a "Vanguard 460" (What happened to Meropa 460? The key is "460".) There are no entries for Mobil. --Lube Doc.doc . Just look thru this one, especially the inital chart that shows equivalencies for the various systems of viscosity grading. Go to: http://www.mscdirect.com . Go to Big Book page 2672. See Mobil SHC 634 (ISO 460), 1 quart x~xx $11.66, Order # 60002219 . I would probably use this Mobil ISO 460 lube, however, I would first---still double check with both Mobil and with Hardinge. Art (Houston) ------- Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 12:02:45 -0800 From: "James L. Hainline" Subject: Re: Slightly off topic--Bridgeport shaper head Art, others interested. More research into the Bridgeport shaper gear lub issue. It does indeed take Mobil 600w Cylinder Oil or equivalent. Here are some equivalents. Hope this might help others. American Lubricant AGMA #7 Castrol Tribol 1105-7C Chevron Cylinder Oil W460 Conoco Inca Oil 460 Exxon (Esso) Spartan EP 460 Fiske Bros. SPO-277 (MSC has this) Shell Valvata J 460 Texaco Vanguard 460 Jim ------- Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2005 20:16:15 -0000 From: "Mark Williams" Subject: Re: Tool anti rustI [Prints_and_Plans] I have been using a product called 'Camelia oil'. Apparently it was used by Japanese warriors to stop their swords rusting. In my experience it gives first class protection to all my tools and doesn't mar wood. A very little is needed, a quick wipe with a cloth dampened with it is all that's required. It can be got from quality hand tool suppliers. I paid £7 for the last 200ml bottle I bought 2 years ago and am about half way through it. I use it on all my woodworking chisels and planes, and on all the mic's etc. -- anything that I don't want to rust. Regards, Mark p.s. I don't make it, honest. It just works for me :-) ------- Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2005 22:18:30 -0500 From: "Jim RabidWolf" Subject: Re: Re: Tool anti rustI Very good stuff - I actually do use it on my swords. Fragrant, cleaning, not messy at all. It's used after cleaning the sword with rice powder and rice paper. Jim RabidWolf Uncle Rabid ( http://www.unclerabid.com ) We Repair Electronic Speed Controllers For Asian Mini Lathes and Mini Mills ------- NOTE TO FILE: The following posting regarding oiling Atlas lathes has been put here as the advice is applicable to many brands/types of machine. ------- Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 01:07:27 -0000 From: "Gary Brady" Subject: Re: 10" Atlas questions [atlas_craftsman] In atlas_craftsmanx~xxyahoogroups.com, "Paul Cataldo" wrote: > I would like to know how to lube the holes that have the little ball in the center, almost like that of a zerk fitting, with the "spring action" ball in the center. Just noticed these on my lathe. There are only a few of them, one of which is right where the carriage handwheel protrudes from the carriage...> I use a pump type oil can with the flexible spout. It has a pointed nozzle which just fits into the hole and so allows you to push in on the ball a bit. Takes both hands to push in and then squeeze the pump. Gary Brady ------- Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 02:28:27 -0000 From: "n5kzw" Subject: Re: 10" Atlas questions I have a small, pump-type, oil can with a rigid spout. A couple of swipes with a sharp-edged swiss file put crossed grooves across the tip of the oiler. The rigid spout makes it easy to depress the ball, and the oil squirts out through the grooves. Ed ------- Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 22:23:36 -0500 From: "jerdal" Subject: Re: Re: 10" Atlas questions Yep, helps quite a bit if you cut a small slot in the end of the spout's point, thru the hole...lets the point push the ball and oil can still come out thru the slot...otherwise the ball wants to seal the hole in the spout end. JT ------- Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 01:03:33 EDT From: gto69ra4x~xxaol.com Subject: Re: 10" Atlas questions 7/21/2005, pc79x~xxbellsouth.net writes: >> Yes, I can be creative, but I guess I was wondering what Atlas designed these for. Surely not a syringe full of oil... Why are they different from every other "oiling point" location? << Where they used them varied by year, I think it was mainly due to cost. Older Atlas lathes used 100% Gits flip-top oilers on the QC box. Later ones (of the original series--I'm talking '50s here) used the ball oilers. I think they're a pain in the rear. Probably will replace them with Gits oilers next time I have it apart. At least one or two on the apron are there probably due to space contraints. Syringe of oil, pump oil can with a narrow spout, needle oiler, take your pick. There's no Atlas-spec'd oiling device I'm aware of. GTO(John) ------- Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 18:49:22 -0000 From: "bonnietr6" Subject: Re: 10" Atlas questions Years ago everyshop had a collection of oiling devices, the most ubiquitous of which was a small hemispherically shaped can with a thin spout radiating from its upper axis. The bottom was concave and could be depressed, causing a drop of oil to emanate from the spout. The bottom would then spring back (from whence the sheetmetal working term "oilcanning" came). Every sewing machine came with one (back when people sewed). One can be seen here: They are popular for low clearance areas. Regular GITS type oilers are also prone to having their tops torn off, whereas the ball type can be durable. Charles ------- Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 18:00:39 -0000 From: "eferg2001" Subject: Need drip oiler for cnc mill [taigtools] I have a Taig CNC mill and I use a lot of miniature end mills (under 0.050" dia) with very slow feed rates. I squirt a couple of drops of tap cutting fluid every minute. Of course babysitting the mill this way partially defeats having cnc. I don't want flood or mist - the tap fluid works great and doesn't make a big mess. I purchased a drip oiler and mounted it to the spindle with a flex tube. The drip oiler is simply a closed cup that has an adjustable valve and works on gravity. I can set the drip rate to one drop per minute. The problem is it is very erratic and often stops dripping during the job. I want to buy or make a more reliable oiler. I'm thinking of a miniature pump controlled by a timer motor & switch. I wonder if a little pump for tabletop fountains would handle oil? Any ideas on a simple solution? Ed ------- Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 22:25:27 -0000 From: "n2562001" Subject: Re: Need drip oiler for cnc mill Ed: Drip oilers are very dependable and have been used on various older engines for many years. First you need to make sure your oil passagage is clear and open as it is suppose to be especially if it is brand new. Your problem is very typical of of a blocked or closed vent (Or lack of) at the top of the oiler. If you have connected a tube to the bottom of the oiler exit it will also give this problem. A seperation is required between the oiler and an extension tube. Jerry Kieffer ------- Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 11:16:01 -0700 From: "Felice Luftschein and Nicholas Carter" Subject: Re: Need drip oiler for cnc mill What about a perstaltic pump? http://www.animatedsoftware.com/pumpglos/peristal.htm They are frequently used for metering fluids at a set rate.Ebay has a bunch at relatively low prices. It wouldn't be hard to make one either. Other than that, what about pressurizing the oiler so that it always has a couple of PSI forcing the fluid out against atmospheric pressure. I never had much luck with gravity feed for constant feed of fluid... too many variables. As the amount of liquid is reduced the pressure is reduced as well, thus leading to the stoppages you describe. Then again you could reinvent the water clock, which does overcome those problems to a certain extent... http://www.ubr.com/clocks/pub/clep/clep.html Check out our homepage www.cartertools.com/nfhome.html ------- Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 16:03:02 -0500 From: "Bad Brad" Subject: RE: Need drip oiler for cnc mill I have used drip oilers found on older gas engines to dispense cutting fluid. I buy them at flea markets and have paid as little as $5 US for them. Most are made of brass with a glass body so the level of oil can be readily seen from a distance. The flow of oil is controlled by a needle valve that can be infinitly adjusted. Most of the older drip oilers also have a quick shutoff valve. They range in size from 1/2 inch all the way up to a whopping 12" in diameter. FBA ------- Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 11:39:47 -1000 (HST) From: benedict-listx~xxhawaii.rr.com Subject: Re: Need drip oiler for cnc mill Just to throw another idea onto the pile, there was a neat pump in a lab where I used to work. The application was similar to what a peristaltic pump is made for, but for lower flow rates. It was a stepper motor, a lead screw, and enough hardware to hold a large-volume syringe. A little 555 timer IC circuit made the stepper tick over at a regular (and variable!) rate. This slowly shoved the plunger down the syringe, forcing the fluid out tiny bits at a time. The nice thing was you could change out the syringe based on what you needed to pump. So for innocuous stuff you could use a plastic syringe. For corrosives you could stick a glass syringe in the machine. If you had to pump a bunch of different things, each got its own syringe and could be swapped out at will. Come to think of it, you could possibly set something like that up as another axis for your machine. Use relative moves of a given length to squirt that much coolant. The motor size was pretty small. I've found steppers of similar size while scrapping old dot matrix printers. For small syringes a stepper from a 5-1/4" floppy would probably do the trick. It wouldn't take a Gecko driver to move the thing. Still going to cost more than the drip oilers Brad was getting at the flea markets, though. Tom ------- Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 23:13:05 -0000 From: "eferg2001" Subject: Re: Need drip oiler for cnc mill Thanks for all the great replies! I never heard of a peristaltic pump before today - but that's what I need. Looks like they have all sizes on ebay - I'll keep watching. One guy even has just the small pump head to use with any motor. I have a coolant on/off relay on my mill controller and I also have a spare axis (I never use all 4 axis at once). It would be nice to turn one of these pump heads with a stepper. The issue is, I don't think there is a way to have a timer interrupt event running in TurboCNC. Worst case is I use a timer motor with cam-operated switch. The drip oiler I now use does have a needle valve and an air gap, but it is not reliable. I think I'll go the pump route and the price is reasonable. Ed ------- Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 16:55:35 -0700 From: Don Rogers Subject: Re: Need drip oiler for cnc mill >If you were to just spring load a syringe and have a needle valve for >control rather than just rely on gravity.. would that improve the >control of the drips? Back in my old days at the GM plant, most of our heavy machinery had something similar in thought, but not in size. They were a large glass cylinder that would hold about a gal or more of oil, They were the reservoir for a smaller "pump" for the lack of a better word. The pump was a smaller cylinder with a spring loaded piston and a metering valve (needle valve) and then a network of supply lines, The pump had a handle that the operator would lift, charging the pump, and then push down, basically just getting the handle out of the way. The pump was a smaller cylinder with a spring loaded piston and a metering valve (needle valve) and then a network of supply lines, The volume of oil in the pump was good for a shift of work. The large glass cylinder would be filled as needed. One thing to keep in mind with these systems is that the tubing, and any hole in the network, was filled with cotton wicking. You basically had a wick from the pump all the way to the way it was servicing. It required a lot of care making sure that at any junction, you made sure all the wicking was in contact with each other. Any gaps in the wick was a loss of lubrication for the remainder of that path. It was easy to see where we had missed the connection after a rebuild had run a week or so. It was sometimes impossible to resolve without another tear down. As liquid takes the path of the least resistance, If you had a system of four lines with a common start point, most of the oil would be delivered to the shortest line, without the wicking. You could eliminate the wicking, but it would require a balanced adjustment of needle valves, one at the outboard end of each line. Opening one would reduce pressure in the system and others may stop suppling oil until they were opened up more. I've never seen a system like this used. The oil cups with the drip viewing glass were usually used only on things like head stock bearings, Somewhere where you had a gravity feed. One Drip cup per bearing. Unless you had a wet headstock. On Lathes and mills, the oil was usually manually applied through oil cups or such. Each repair crew had a guy whose only job was to oil the machines. His whole shift was to go around and pump, fill, grease, etc. On the Taig lathe, there is no place for oil other than a drop on the bed and cross slide and screw every now and then. On the Mill, it isn't much different, but the X axis looks to be a problem waiting to happen as there just isn't an easy way to oil the ways. A system of wicks would be nice here. ------- Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 19:55:10 -0700 From: "Paul W. Chamberlain" Subject: Re: Need drip oiler for cnc mill For those that have money to burn (not me), there's always the Trico Micro-Drop system: http://www.tricomfg.com/store/ProdLineInfo.asp?ProdLineID=31&Pro dSeg=MetalCutting http://www.jlindustrial.com/catalog/product.jsp?origin=SEARCH%3AKEY WORD&id=TRI-30801D# Paul, Central OR ------- Date: Tue, 27 Dec 2005 13:15:07 -0800 From: "Karin Corbin" Subject: cutting aluminum [taigtools] Aluminum is porous. If you are using a petroleum based product such as WD-40, kerosene, wax or transmission fluid it is going to get absorbed and a small amount will remain in the metal. That is fine if you have no intention of further processing the part such as painting it or coating it with other substances or using adhesives on it. My previous manufacturing work was at Boeing where most of the metal used was aluminum. The aluminum cutting fluids primarily consisted of cetyl alcohol. Boeing worked with chemical manufacturing companies to make cutting fluid formulas specific to their needs. They are available at retail, Boelube is the primary one I remember. It comes in liquid, sticks, paste, blocks, etc. Cetyl alcohol does smoke if it gets really hot, it is a water soluble oil made from plants such as palm and coconut. I have heard of guys grabbing a tube of chapstick if they had nothing else to use since its primary ingrediant is cetyl alcohol. Karin ------- Date: Wed, 28 Dec 2005 02:00:37 -0000 From: "campgems" Subject: Re: Way oil sure is sticky In taigtoolsx~xxyahoogroups.com, Jim McMillan wrote: >> Is there anything wrong with using a plain old light machine oil on the ways and screws like "3 in 1" oil, or a light motor oil? I really wish Taig would weigh-in on the subject. Seems to be as many opinions as users out there! Maybe it just doesn't matter that much... Jim << Jim, it more of a case of anything is better than nothing. There are differences in the performance of oils though. Basically you want an oil with enough viscosity that it provides a barier between the moving metal parts. If they rub, they will gall. Then logic would say that a good thick grease would be best. If nothing was going on but movement, that may be a good answer, however when you add in stuff like ease of movement, dirt and grit attraction, Odor, well the list is long, then other virtues beside the basic lubrication ability comes into play. There are a number of right answers, and a few not so good. Your right answer depends on what you are cutting, grinding, etc, how often you clean up and re-lube, what cutting fluids are coming into play, again, a long list. You need to balance these to get the right answer. Some lubes are valuable over a wide range of the above answers, some are only good for a very narrow usage. IE, if all I was going to cut was wax on my lathe, I would want something that left no oil film, but still give a bit of lubrication. Maybe a silicon spray and then a wipe down ever hour or so of use. On the other hand, cutting some cast iron, I want a good lube that will not hold the dirt, IE not a detergent motor oil. I need a heaver lube because I'm putting more stress on the parts. It doesn't matter much if the oil gets on the part being cut. Also I need to have a lube that will tolerate any cutting oil I use. I would want a good way oil for this. The problem comes into play when you are cutting wax one day, cast iron the next, and then some brass and aluminum thrown for good measure -- topped off with a bit of drill rod. For desert, some nylon or other plastic. Each a different cutting stress and different cutting fluids, so different lubes would seem to be a good answer. However, stripping down the machine and removing old lube and cleaning everything up between each job is a bit much to ask. If you don't clean all of the old lube off before adding a different lube, you can run into problems where the two oils turn to a gum or tar and don't provide the lube you need as well as making movement difficult. The answer is to find a lube that handles most if not all the different requirements you are placing on it. That is why you see so many different right answers for this question. Even though they may not be your right answer. Don ------- Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2006 11:38:59 -1000 (HST) From: benedict-listx~xxhawaii.rr.com Subject: RE: Re: WD-40 - Rust [taigtools] On Mon, 16 Jan 2006, Carol & Jerry Jankura wrote: > You might want to take a good look at Boeshield T-9 rust preventative. > I use it on all of my woodworking equipment, and have not been > disappointed. I also use it on the steel parts of my Sherline tools. > It's available in an aerosol spray. You spray it on, let it dry a > little, and then buff it off. Last year, Wood magazine surveyed all of > the "rust preventative" products available; of those, T-9 was the only > one that they had to "cheat" to make the underlying metal rust. IMHO, > it's much better than WD-40 Funny you mention that, Jerry! Because of where I'm located, rust is a constant issue. At work several of the shop tools are in an unheated, uncooled practically outdoor building. Because of the humidity and salt content in the air things rust and rust FAST. I've used Boeshield at home, and one of the other technicians here uses it on his mountain bikes. He saw that article and printed it out. Based on that we got a gallon of the stuff and put it in spray bottles. The two of us spent about an hour cleaning the rust off one of the "exposed" mills and treated it with Boeshield. There has been no new rust since, and each time we use the mill we try to clean it off a little more and re-apply. For my part I've got a Lewis shaper I shipped here from Texas. It spent three months in a crate in a warehouse in Texas, then got tied up in the longshoremen's strike in California and sat on the docks in a container for another three months, and finally sat in storage in a rain and salt-prone area of the island where I now live. The outside of the castings are all painted, but the inside is raw cast iron and was simply sprayed down with Boeshield and not buffed just prior to shipment. It's been three years since shipping it here, and it's still rust free. The stuff is seriously SERIOUSLY nice for rust prevention. I can't sing its praises highly enough. Tom ------- NOTE TO FILE: There is a very informative conversation on flushing and lubricating shapers starting 15 July 2006 and located here in the "Shaper General" file under the subject "Re: Flushing a South Bend Shaper Oil Pump". The postings have some shaper-specific information, but also much lubricant information that will be useful for any type of machine. ------- Re: screw lube [taigtools] Posted by: "Doug Stout" kingshouse41225x~xxgmail.com Date: Tue Jan 9, 2007 8:06 pm ((PST)) >>Sent: Tuesday, January 09, 2007 2:41 AM >>I know this is an old topic, but what's the latest thinking on what to >>use for lubricating the leadscrews on the Taig mill? >>I've been using spray white lithium grease with some success, then I >>tried some spray "Superlube" which has PTFE in it. Seemed to work OK, >>but not much "staying power". Then I tried "Superlube" synthetic grease >>(also with PTFE, but a thicker grease that comes in a squeeze tube). >>Not happy with that at all. Seems to be squeegeed off by the lead nut, >>leaving the screws dry. Is there a "best" way to go? Jim On 1/9/07, Callcbm wrote: > You can try Brownpolymer the lube is a paste but when rub on a surface > leaves a dry film that's very slippery and resist wearing off. most > solvents have no effect but synthetic coolants have had reports it will > gum up. I think that's if you use more than you need. To apply just put > some on a rag and wipe it will deposit and stick if the surface is > clean. Wipe off the excess and that's all you need. If you like I will > send you a sample. Thanks Randy www.enjenjoesproducts.com For moderate use brownpolymer works well as a lead screw lube. I tried using it on the leadscrews of my Sherline CNC lathe. On the X axis (which is fairly inaccessible and thus fairly well protected from chips and dirt) it held up quite well, but on the Z I supplement it with oil, because: (1) I can get to it easily and (2) the oil flushes away small chips and particles. In terms of staying power the brownpolymer seems to hold up better on aluminum and brass than it does on steel. What you really need to lubricate is the nut rather than the leadscrew, as you will wear out at least five nuts before you will need to replace your leadscrew. Even when the leadscrew appears dry, the nut will probably retain enough lube to do an effective job. As brownpolymer is not "wet" like oil or some greases it will hold less dirt. The majority of nut wear is caused by dirt trapped within the lube. On "real" CNC machines the leadscrews are lubed frequently with oil, frequently enough that it continually runs off. The purpose of the oil "runoff" is not so much to provide adequate lubrication but to flush away dirt which would damage the preloaded nuts. I wouldn't worry so much about making sure that you apply a thin film. I fairly gobbed it onto both the X axis screw and the X axis ways and gib, and it has not stiffened up. ------- NOTE TO FILE: The subject of which lubricant is better (best?) for gears comes up from time to time and many products have been discussed earlier in this file. This next conversation points out the needs of gears and some grease design facts. Please also read the earlier messages here which provide more grease brand choices and the experiences of the machine owners. ------- Grease or Oil? [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: "old2l63" oldtoolx~xxfvi.net Date: Tue Jul 17, 2007 9:37 pm ((PDT)) Hi All. At the risk of starting a running battle: Is it better to use grease or oil on the teeth of the change and back gears? I believe the lube chart calls for grease, but my preference would be to use oil so less chance for chips to be held on the teeth. That said, would way oil be best since it has tactifiers and high pressure additives, or spindle oil? What do you use? Mike Duchaj ------- Re: Grease or Oil? Posted by: "Jon Elson" elsonx~xxpico-systems.com Date: Tue Jul 17, 2007 9:45 pm ((PDT)) Spindle oil is too thin to prevent metal-metal contact on the teeth, especially of the back gears. Also, under some circumstances like coarse thread cutting, the gear train can be under quite heavy loads. So, a grease that can prevent the metal contact is needed. There are special open-gear greases that are designed to stay put rather than be flung off, that is what is recommended. Jon ------- Re: Grease or Oil? Posted by: "teabagger947" robbiemac947x~xxsbcglobal.net Date: Wed Jul 18, 2007 3:28 am ((PDT)) At risk of feeding the fire,I use a Lucas product,fifth wheel lube on my geartrain,it is extreme pressure,tacky,and lasts a long time. Regards, Rob ------- Re: Grease or Oil? Posted by: "Jay Greer" redwitch1x~xxearthlink.net Date: Wed Jul 18, 2007 7:15 am ((PDT)) Everyone has their own choice. But, in the forty-five years I have been using my Atlas 618, I have yet to find chips imbedded in the grease I use on my change and back gears. I will admit that my gears are pretty quiet and I am constantly cleaning the machine while it is in use. Jay Greer ------- Re: Grease or Oil? Posted by: "Rexarino" rexarinox~xxgmail.com Date: Thu Jul 19, 2007 11:30 pm ((PDT)) snip > .... I am constantly cleaning the machine while it is in use. > Jay Greer Suggest that you turn it off before cleaning in the future - saves trips to the emergency room! ;<)) Alright, I apologize, I couldn't help it, it just wrote itself... rexarino ------- Gear Grease [atlas_craftsman further discussion of Grease or Oil?] Posted by: "jaguar3145" jaguar3145x~xxsbcglobal.net Date: Wed Jul 18, 2007 9:32 am ((PDT)) Hi Jay, Could you share the name of the grease that you use? While cleaning my machine I had to use a wire brush (not wheel) to clean off the tar between the gear teeth on the drive train. The QC box had the same substance so I suspect oil was the lube of choice. However, I had no bad gears. Thomas ------- Re: Gear Grease Posted by: "Jay Greer" redwitch1x~xxearthlink.net Date: Wed Jul 18, 2007 3:41 pm ((PDT)) Hi Thomas, I use a German white grease "Molykote". Periodic cleaning is done with naphtha and a tooth brush. I have never experienced tar-like build up. Cheers, Jay ------- Re: Gear Grease Posted by: "azbruno" azbrunox~xxyahoo.com Date: Wed Jul 18, 2007 5:06 pm ((PDT)) I use Lubriplate Heavy Duty Gear Shield for the open gears on my 618 (back gears and drive gears). I think it's available in a spray can, but I use the stuff that's applied with a standard caulking gun. At the rate I'm going, one tube should last about 10 years. It's thick and tacky, but I have not had a problem with swarf getting into the mix. Bruno ------- Re: Gear Grease Posted by: "William Abernathy" williamx~xxinch.com Date: Thu Jul 19, 2007 8:43 am ((PDT)) I use a no-name molybdenum disulfide grease. The only build-up I have noticed looks to me to have been left by a previous owner. That's what I tell myself, at least. As for chips, I can't speak for your machine, but the covers on mine seem to do a pretty good job of keeping them out of the works. William A. ------- Grease [atlas_craftsman further discussion of Grease or Oil?] Posted by: "jtiggr" jtiggr713x~xxyahoo.com Date: Wed Jul 18, 2007 8:00 pm ((PDT)) On an objective note: Grease is mixture of a "carrier" and "oil". There are many types and chemistries of the thickener (carrier), just as there are lots of types and chemistries of the liquid component. Regardless of the mixture, the basic truth is that when the oil is depleted, gone, left the building, it is the carrier/thickener that remains. A motor manufacturer that I used to work for had used a type of grease where the thickener allowed the mineral based oil to separate out more quickly. This was great for the ball bearings on a short term basis as they got lots of oil. Two problems arose: in the warehouse there were tiny pools of oil under each end of the motor where the oil had separated. And the bearings then had a nice cake/gell remaining. Subsequent re-greasings should take care of flushing it, but why start with a problem. The industry evolved into using a polyurea based grease. The oil no longer oozed out so easily. But then did the bearing get enough oil? Seems to have since they have been doing it now for 20 years. While grease works to lubricate, it also helps to remove heat from the bearing by transferring it to the bearing housing. However, we should well remember that the spindle bearings are OIL lubricated (generally). Having grease in an anti-friction bearing can also be the cause of too much heat which will drasticaly reduce bearing life. My personal opinion is that I'd rather oil frequently, and grease sparingly. Travis ------- Re: Grease Posted by: "Carvel Webb" carvelwx~xxabsamail.co.za Date: Thu Jul 19, 2007 12:57 pm ((PDT)) A bit more fuel to the 'greasy' fire from my side . . . I can certainly identify with Travis' observations. When I got my Atlas MFC Mill, the back gear, and the Pick 'o Matic gear train were covered in a toffee-like goo with embedded swarf that resisted all initial attempts at cleaning with petroleum based solvents. I finally resorted to soaking the assemblies in lacquer thinners for 36 hours which softened things up and allowed the bulk of the old "grease" and chips to be cleaned off/out with a stiff brush, but I still had to clean semi-embedded chips out of some teeth with a tooth pick and/or a scriber. At the recommendation of my first instructor of (many) years ago, I have always used medium grade machine oil for the bearings, and EP80 or 90 gear oil for the back gears and gear trains, with no evidence of wear that I can detect after a couple of decades. I have two corresponding oil cans, and a few drops of each on the relevant parts before starting a job seems to work. Regards, Carvel ------- Re: Grease Posted by: "SupportOurTroops - Skip" mkc1951x~xxsbcglobal.net Date: Fri Jul 20, 2007 7:30 am ((PDT)) One tip I was given from somewhere is to keep a cork in the end of the spindle through hole to keep chips from walking through and dropping into the gear train. It works very well and I have had no trouble with chips there or in the headstock for many years. The lead screw is a different story. I'm still trying to figure a way to put some sort of sliding shield on the left side of the carriage. Skip Campbell Ft. Worth, Texas mkctools.com 12x36 underdrive 101.28990 http://www.mkctools.com/craftsmanlathe.htm ------- NOTE TO FILE: This next message includes a smart modification to a lathe carriage to keep it and the ways clean and lubricated. ------- Re: Resale Value & Belt Question [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: "jerdalx~xxsbcglobal.net" Date: Tue Aug 14, 2007 5:47 pm ((PDT)) > Cutting cast iron and how to avoid some of the mess and wear on your > lathe. When cutting C.I. [CAST IRON] the swarf is messy, dirty and > abrasive. One way to control a lot of it is to put a rare earth magnet > in a plastic baggie and hang it near the cutting area. The hard iron > powder will be attracted to the magnet and the magnet can > be cleaned by peeling off the baggie over your swarf can. CI is bad, but NOT in the same league with aluminum oxide abrasive particles. CI particles on CI wear the CI much slower, and don't typically embed in (charge) one or both of the parts. CI is only nominally like an actual abrasive, such as aluminum oxide, that is hard enough to abrade hardened steel. You don't find CI, even chilled iron, used much for cutting tools, even in the old days of "carbon steel". One of the best things to do for your machine as far as preventing wear is to install an "under-carriage" lubrication system. Put the oil in, clean, UNDERNEATH the carriage, and it will wash out the grit and grime, instead of washing it IN. Otherwise, you are doomed to have that gray paste of particles forever on your ways, no matter how much you clean. And new clean oil washes that dirty paste under the carriage as it is swept in. No matter how much you wipe, there is always more. A well oiled surface tends to retain far less grit, even if conditions are such as to tend to "charge" one or both surfaces. I installed such an oiling system (two drilled holes, two Gits oilers, and 1" of small copper tubing) in my Logan carriage years ago. For a week or so, gray stuff was still being washed out. After that, and ever since, the way oil is clear and clean, and I only need to clear swarf off the ways, none of the gray paste is ever there. JT ------- Re: Thought I'd seen it all, but... Posted by: "Alan R. Lapp" alanlappx~xxlevelfive.com Date: Fri Aug 17, 2007 9:09 am ((PDT)) Frank wrote: > And JRW's suggestion for a solenoid valve on the gravity system is a > very nice design idea. Anybody else have tweaks on these ideas? Yes: put the solenoid as far "downstream" as possible, perhaps immediately before the distribution block. If you put the solenoid at the reservoir, the contents of the lines & distribution block will drain after the machine is shut off. a ------- Re: Thought I'd seen it all, but... Posted by: "Jim B." btdtrfandmwx~xxcomcast.net Date: Fri Aug 17, 2007 9:54 am ((PDT)) At the surplus center http://www.surpluscenter.com/ If you get one of these: http://www.surpluscenter.com/item.asp?UID=2007081710291218 &item=11-3148-250&catname=electric Item 11-3148-250 or 11-3148-125 $20 are 250/120 volt 24 hour timer with 15 minute intervals and Item http://www.surpluscenter.com/item.asp?UID=2007081710291218 &item=137-B&catname=electric Item 137-B is an adjustable 15 second timer. $2. Set your motor to run on 220. Set the first timer to have the proper interval, (one shot every 15/30/60/90 minuets etc) Set the second timer for the length of the oil shot. The second timer opens the solenoid. This would be cumulative. For example every time you run the machine for a total of an hour you would get a 10 second shot of lubrication. etc. Jim B. ------- Staining, Rust or Crud? [sherline] Posted by: "ignorantnotstupid" ignorantnotstupidx~xxyahoo.com Date: Sun Sep 23, 2007 8:14 am ((PDT)) I've been using bought new Sherline products for about 5 months, but all the exposed steel on them have developed a "creeping brown crud" appearance, rather than the nice polished steel they once were. This includes the Jacobs chucks, lathe chucks, the rails on both the mill and lathe and everything that was once bright steel. It is really bad at this point, and the crud seems to eat off the laser printing or at least make it almost invisible. At first Sherline told me that it was probably "rust" due to humidity, which this summer ran a bit over 65% for a couple weeks in my walkout basement shop. The suggested solution was to use Scotch Brite, which sort of works, but a few days later the crude returns. I have been using Ace Hardware thread cutting oil as my cutting and preservative lubricant of choice, and now I'm wondering if this stuff is wrecking my nice beautiful collection of tools. This weekend I found that kerosene would partially dissolve the brown crud, but not remove all of it - not even "half." There is nothing on the oil container that says anything about "sulfur" but it has been suggested this may be the problem. Does anyone have an idea how to fix this problem? I like the color of bright steel, not some smudgy brown that my chucks and other tools have become. Please? jim ------- Re: Staining, Rust or Crud? Posted by: "David Wood" dave.woodx~xxcomcast.net wood.1937 Date: Sun Sep 23, 2007 9:34 am ((PDT)) >I've been using bought new Sherline products for about 5 months, but >all the exposed steel on them have developed a "creeping brown crud" >appearance, rather than the nice polished steel they once were. Jim: Try wiping down the parts with pure acetone, then giving a light coat of a light oil (say, sewing maching oil). I got this advice from the vendor of a great mill vise that developed the same problem: it worked. Dave Wood ------- Re: Staining, Rust or Crud? Posted by: "DA Dossin" danatlx~xxyahoo.com danatl Date: Sun Sep 23, 2007 11:34 am ((PDT)) Jim: It isn't the 'wonderful' ACE cutting fluid. I too use it, for lack of anything else in the immediate area. I do not have the crud build up but, I clean the lathe with a solvent and then apply a light oil. Dan. ------- Re: Staining, Rust or Crud? Posted by: "Chuck McManis" cmcmanisx~xxmcmanis.com Date: Sun Sep 23, 2007 8:28 pm ((PDT)) Any steel that is exposed to water, heat, and light will oxidize (even stainless!) My Dad is a gunsmith and an engraver and he always has half a dozen disassembled firearms laying about it seems. He has always told me that a good cleaning with alcohol (which evaporates completely) and a light coat of machine oil is best, however he is also a fan of WD-40 (which is a Water Displacer after all) as a 'between uses' sort of protection. WD-40 is less likely to collect dust/particulates but its protection doesn't last as long either so it's a trade off. He will engrave a receiver, dip it in an alcohol wash and then spray some WD-40 while he's working on other stuff. If it's going to be a while, he'll wipe it down with light machine oil and wrap it in a machinist's rag (those red lint free rags you can get anywhere). On my lathe my chucks stay wrapped when they aren't in use. I got the Ultimate Machine shop deal from Sherline in January of 2002 and since I don't use the Lathe much (perhaps more soon!) I've had most of its tooling wrapped and stored in my tool cabinet. I unwrapped the 3 jaw chuck (last time I did that was probably 2 years ago) and it still looks brand new. Chuck ------- Re: Staining, Rust or Crud? Posted by: "bushman31x~xxaol.com" bushman31x~xxaol.com Date: Mon Sep 24, 2007 2:36 pm ((PDT)) I use Hoppe's No.9 gun solvent to clean all my tooling. Using a shotgun bore brush, I clean the insides of the jaws on all the chucks. For long term storage, after cleaning, I use gun oil. Ron W. ------- [This conversation started about removing rust, all the usual methods, and switched to how to prevent rust on sea trips.] Re: Rusty saddle [MyMyford] Posted by: "Kevin" tadpolex~xxbtinternet.com Date: Mon Nov 5, 2007 2:38 pm ((PST)) Larry, I can't add anything to the suggestions already posted (other than "live with it"!!), but I can offer the list a way of preventing it from happening in the future. Some time ago I left the UK for a three year contract working in Western Australia. I had a sea freight allowance, based on volume not weight, and so the Myford made the trip. Interestingly the instructions from the shippers said they wouldn't be responsible for handling pianos, as they had a cast iron frame that could break if dropped (!!), so I wrote them a letter asking if they would be able to handle a metalworking lathe which I would crate up and which would weigh so and so (didn't mention cast iron, of course). Nice letter back, no problem. It went in a wooden crate, but the important bit for this thread is the protection used. I painted it all over with Shell Ensis Fluid (long term grade). This is solvent based and easy to brush on. When the solvent evaporates it leaves a soft greasy/waxy thick film. I forget how long the sea voyage took, longer than 12 days. It then sat for 6 months, still in the crate, in an open sided lean-to (in Perth) until I moved up to the actual job site further north. When I finally got it into my new shop and wiped it down with rags and white spirit there wasn't a trace of rust. At the end of the contract the whole thing was repeated and it was shipped back to England. No rust at all. I should declare that I used to work for Shell, but I don't make any money out of promoting this product, and other companies make similar stuff. Kevin NW England, UK ------- Re: Rusty saddle Posted by: "Larry Heyda" larryedax~xxembarqmail.com Date: Mon Nov 5, 2007 5:25 pm ((PST)) Hi Kevin, Great suggestion. I'll never let this happen again. I'll paint that thing from head to tail (stock). Kind regards, Larry ------- prefered cutting oil/coolant [MyMyford] Posted by: "yelnickmigwawa" yelnickx~xxhotmail.com Date: Thu Nov 8, 2007 10:58 pm ((PST)) hello to all. this is my first post, but this site has already been invaluable thanks to the operating manuals for the super 7!! To start, I have just purchased an older myford super 7 (1969~1971?), and an Atlas horizontal mill(1950~1960?). And having a generous wife, I am allowed to set them up in our spare bedroom. The question I ask of all is I am looking for recommendations for a coolant/cutting oil that is: -non staining -very low to nil odor -good to decent finish for a variety of metals -environmental friendly -and easy on the pocket book What is the best coolant/cutting oil for my situation? thanks for any responses! ------- Re: prefered cutting oil/coolant Posted by: "durnfjm" durnfjmx~xxaol.com Date: Fri Nov 9, 2007 1:31 am ((PST)) Workshops in spare bedrooms have the obvious advantages that they are warm, dry, comfortable, accessible etc, but disadvantages that may be less obvious at first. All cutting oils (and lubricating oils for that matter) smell. Solvents, adhesives and paints smell. Metal swarf migrates around the house and makes the wife less generous as time goes by. Machine tools that run almost silently when bolted down to a concrete floor resonate horribly when on a suspended wooden floor. Hammering and even sawing and filing operations are noisy, and can become very annoying to someone who is trying to read or relax elsewhere in the house.... etc., etc.... However, you asked about cutting fluids. Google for Hallett Oils, they have a great range of products and will supply by mail order (UK, anyway) in small quantities. I have found them most helpful on several occasions the phone. (no connection, usual disclaimer, etc) Good luck with the new workshop. Mike D. ------- Re: prefered cutting oil/coolant Posted by: "Phil Tuck" folliesx~xxntlworld.com Date: Fri Nov 9, 2007 3:19 am ((PST)) Hello. Chronos sell a cutting oil that does not smell - to my wife at least. I have no sence of smell anyway, or very very little, so it is not an issue for me. Cutting oil + milling + "inside the house" = possible wife trouble I reckon. Phil ------- Re: prefered cutting oil/coolant Posted by: "gordon_frnch" gordon-frenchx~xxnetzero.net Date: Fri Nov 9, 2007 6:39 am ((PST)) I'll second everything he said about "indoor" tools. But I think that the application of any kind of cutting or for that matter lubrication (bedways, slides, support posts) calls for judicious restraint. I shop regularly at the beauty supply shop for drip type applicators, eye droppers, small squeeze bottles etc. Both for economy and mess. One reason is that I've lined my chip tray with green outdoor carpeting so that I can leave tools handy in the tray. It is hard to clean of chips and swarf, but I can rip the whole thing out and take it elsewhere to clean if required. Loads of oil of any kind are then unwanted. Bedways are lubed before use and wiped down afterwards. Eventually you will find that there is a place and time for everything and become sadly aware that you WILL need a purposely arranged shop. Meanwhile kiss and hug the wife regularly for her patience and generosity. Gordon, Roseburg, USA ------- Re: prefered cutting oil/coolant Posted by: "peter104223" p.neillx~xxbtinternet.com Date: Fri Nov 9, 2007 8:11 am ((PST)) I use Rocol V-cut MT, which is about the cheapest one they do, diluted about 15:1. Somewhere around 25 quid for 5 litres and lasts for ages in the home shop. I don't think it smells at all, but sometimes you just get used to these things. Incidentally, I very rarely use it on the Myford but tend to be a bit more liberal with it when I'm milling on the Bridgie. Dispensed via an old tesco washing up liquid bottle. When I am screwcutting on the lathe I always tend to use Rocol RTD, however this definitey smells! Especially if it gets a bit warm and smokes a touch. Peter ------- Re: prefered cutting oil/coolant Posted by: "Norman Atkinson" normanx~xxn-atkinson.wanadoo.co.uk Date: Sat Nov 10, 2007 12:52 am ((PST)) An odd reply? In a house? What nicer than the smell of frying bacon? I use---- lard oil obtainable from good oil wholesalers. Does it work? You betcha! ------- Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2007 18:40:34 -0500 From: "Bretton Wade" Subject: [OldTools] mineral oil With all the debate over finishing food preparation items, mineral oil has popped up a few times. Near as I know it's a by-product of petroleum distillation to gasoline that is widely regarded as completely safe for humans, and has a wide range of uses. Wikipedia touches on some of it, but here's a few examples: - It does not rot or go rancid, it won't color wood, it doesn't harden, but it does eventually "dry" up (dissipation like water, not hardening). - It's available in light and heavy weight, and is an excellent lubricant. - It's sold in every grocery store in the nation, a 16oz bottle for $3, in the laxative section. Yes, you drink it. No, I haven't tried, I can't bring myself to do that. - Johnson and Johnson adds a little perfume and sells the same stuff as baby oil. You rub it on yer back side after cleanup to prevent chapping. - It is a primary ingredient in just about every type of skin care lotion, heated, whipped to get some air in it, voila - probably not great for acne-prone skin though. - It is *not* inert on plastics and latex, so it's not the best bet for unmarried couples. - It is widely used by gunsmiths for lubrication and rust-prevention, and the military did an expensive study comparing mineral oil as a rust preventative to a wide variety of commercial concoctions. It doesn't drive away moisture like WD-40, but it will protect a dry surface from oxidation as good as anything else on the market. - It's used in the french finish/shellac process. I believe the alcohol speeds up the dissipation of the oil, but I'm talking out of the part I sit on. - Less viscous/lighter weight versions of the stuff are sold as "sewing machine" and "clock" oil. It's good for these applications since it doesn't harden or gum up over time. - I've heard it recommended for lubricating oil-stones in sharpening, for all the reasons you've read above. - If you look at any product called "Butcher Block" oil, if it lists ingredients it's probably either mineral oil or walnut oil. - It cleans up easily with soap and water, and it doesn't present a fire-hazard on a rag. Not to say it isn't flammable, but since it doesn't "cure", it doesn't spontaneously catch fire like linseed oiled rags are famous for doing. I'm not taking legal liability for this statement though, so always better be safe than sorry with oily rags. In short, every galoot should have a container or two around the shop, it's the wonder oil! Hopefully none of this is a can of worms! Bretton Wade (aka Noz Moe King) in Parkton, MD ------- Oil type [taigtools] Posted by: "Bertho Boman" boman01x~xxvinland.com Date: Thu Jan 31, 2008 11:26 am ((PST)) There are lots of comments about proper lubrication but what type of oil should be used that is readily available? For example, for the ways and lead screws? For the gearbox of a full-size lathe? I vaguely remember comments about using transmission fluids, but there are different types, power steering fluid and so on. What should I look for that is available at the local hardware store or automobile supply shop? TIA Bertho ------- Re: Oil type Posted by: "Rachael" katzengx~xxhotmail.com Date: Thu Jan 31, 2008 8:22 pm ((PST)) It doesn't fall into the 'hardware store' category, but if you can place a mail order or web order with any tool supplier (McMaster, Enco, MSC, etc, etc), Mobil Vactra #2 Way Oil is in stock everywhere and is by far the best stuff for the screws and ways on the Taig. Imho, at least. Rachael ------- Re: Oil type Posted by: "Michael Fagan" woodworker88x~xxgmail.com Date: Thu Jan 31, 2008 8:35 pm ((PST)) Mobil Vactra #2 Way Oil is the standard for every machine (Taig-sized on up to Haas VF-0's) I have ever used. I bought a 5 gallon bucket for $40 at my local Grainger industrial supply (my Excello 602 vertical mill has an oil-filled head that takes 3-4 quarts) but you can buy it in a gallon for about $15. If you can buy local, it saves the DOT shipping surcharges. ------- Re: Oil type Posted by: "Jeff Demand" jdemandx~xxgmavt.net Date: Thu Jan 31, 2008 9:11 pm ((PST)) Bertho: No experience with gear boxes but I have used chain saw bar oil on ways and screws for years. Nothing worn out yet, seems to be like real way oil but it comes in quarts from local hardware store cheap. Jeff ------- Re: Oil type Posted by: "Michael Fagan" woodworker88x~xxgmail.com Date: Fri Feb 1, 2008 12:26 am ((PST)) If they're exposed gears, you'll want to run some sort of grease, if it's a sealed gearbox, Mobil Velocite is good. Depending on the design, if the bearings are open, you'll need to run a spindle oil like the Velocite, but if the bearings are lubricated separately from the gears (such as in a QC gearbox with permanently sealed bearings or a machine with dedicated bearing oilers), you'd want to run a heavier gear oil such as SAE 90WT or any good synthetic gear oil product. The heavier oils will not adequately lubricate bearings, but they are better for the gears. It really all depends on how the system is set up. Also, with regards to chain saw oil, it has added tackifiers, so it sticks to things, which makes it great for slideways and other surfaces but it will gum up bearings and transmissions. ------- Shipping/Storing equipment [sherline] Posted by: "murraykish" murraykishx~xxyahoo.com Date: Thu May 22, 2008 7:18 am ((PDT)) Hello all, I am going to be moving from Canada to Europe this summer, and I would like to take my Sherline equip with me. However, I don't expect to be using it for several months, and was wondering if there is anything I can do to protect it from rust. I expect my equip will get sent over with the rest of our other furniture/ boxes/etc, so it will likely be in a moving container for several weeks (on the high seas). I also expect to leave it in storage for a few months once it arrives to Europe. The area I'm moving to is relatively high in humidity, so I want to make sure it is protected. Thanks for your advice. Murray Kish ------- Re: Shipping/Storing equipment Posted by: "n2562001" jlkiefferx~xxcharter.net Date: Thu May 22, 2008 8:53 am ((PDT)) Murray: Anything shipped on a ship across the big pond will be subject to salt water or at least salt water air as I recall from the good old Navy Days. The only thing I have ever seen that would protect from salt water was Cosmoline. You can get a spray Cosmoline type product designed for Marine salt water spray protection from "Sprayon". It's called P.D.R.P. product number S00710. It's available from most of the better quality supply houses. Also it has not hurt any of my Sherline painted/ anodized surfaces. Jerry Kieffer ------- Re: Shipping/Storing equipment Posted by: "Alan Haisley" alanhyx~xxroadrunner.com Date: Thu May 22, 2008 12:40 pm ((PDT)) There are commercial dehydrator preparations available. I haven't looked but imagine that McMaster Carr, MSC, or others carry such items. Also available is "housewrap" adhesive tape. I'd think that you could make heavyweight poly bags and seal your equipment in them with a bunch of anhydrous water adsorber cannisters. If you do it tightly enough, you should be able to package everything with near zero water. Key would be to package the machines in such a way that shipping doesn't rip any holes in the plastic "bags"; also you don't want things to shift around. If you adopt this method, I'd pack enough plastic, tape, and dehydrator units so that the process could be duplicated during a return trip. The "housewrap" tape will stick to polyethylene firmly enough that the original bags are guaranteed to get torn up when you open them. This approach would be much cleaner than using a Cosmoline like compound to cover everything - and is probably more effective. Alan ------- Oils for cutting [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: "Michael White" dallashotrodpartsx~xxyahoo.com Date: Fri Jul 4, 2008 10:31 am ((PDT)) Ok gentlemen and any ladies, Id like to revisit the oils for cutting discussion. I have a Craftsman 12x36 that I use to turn down mostly DOM tube. I also will be cutting some threads. I also have a craftsman 15 inch drill press mounted to the floor next to my lathe. On the drill press I will be using a tube notcher with hole saw bits of 1 inch diameter up to 2 inch diameter. The tube notcher needs oil to cut into the dom, cold rolled and hot rolled plate I use to make parts. I am wondering what type cutting oil I could make myself to use on both machines. I would like to put a pan under the lathe and the drill press to catch the oil and direct it to a 5 gallon can and then repour it into another can set up on a shelf above both machines. I would then use copper tubes with small valves to let the fluid drip onto the cutting area as I cut or drill. I had this setup before on the drill press and it worked with plain engine oil that dripped onto the holesaw bit as it cut and then it was caught by a tray and I recycled it as stated above. My brother is a forkilft mechanic and gives me extra motor oil all the time. So I would like to use motor oil and thin it with something like maybe some tap magic or some thin oil. I dont want to spend a ton on cutting fluid. I would rather have a petroleum based solution. The fact that I have the access to free oil makes me lean toward motor oil and mixing it with something else. I don't mind adding one or the other as necessary along the way. I only use my lathe and drill press a few hours a week right now. any help is greatly appreciated Michael White Dallas Hotrod Parts www.dallashotrodparts.com ------- Re: Oils for cutting Posted by: "James Walther" indianfourriderx~xxyahoo.com Date: Fri Jul 4, 2008 10:56 am ((PDT)) Michael, I use the used 50 wt. oil from my old motorcycle. It's not free, but I am recycling it {:-) I use it on the drill press with hole saws up to 3" in 1/8" steel (probably hot finish but I'm not sure) and on the lathe (same as yours, 12x36 w/qcgb) for parting off - up to 2" dia CRS and threading up to 1 1/2-8 in CRS so far. I use A9 on aluminum and Tap Magic on brass. I also have can of CRC spray cutting fluid that comes in handy - anything but aluminum. Jim ------- Re: Oils for cutting Posted by: "n8as1x~xxaol.com" n8as1x~xxaol.com Date: Fri Jul 4, 2008 12:34 pm ((PDT)) old engine oil , dirtier the better . BLACK..!!!..it does more than just flush, maybe sulfur in it ????...dunno .......for fine finish .& alloy steels, lard oil ( 30 wt nondeterg/ pressed raw pork fat. or rendered .1/1......bacon grease works just as well or better.!!!!!! , & is better on steel than on ur palate......before the EPA got into it, there may have been better stuff commercially ....now i think they are mostly back to animal/vegetable oils, & one might as well use their own supply .... really.olde tymers used rendered tallow ...( beef fat ), then they went to lard oil ( from pressed fat mixed w/ steam cyllinder oil ...percentage depending on material & process..25% up to pure lard oil ). best wishes docn8as ------- Re: Oils for cutting Posted by: "Michael White" dallashotrodpartsx~xxyahoo.com Date: Fri Jul 4, 2008 12:59 pm ((PDT)) I think I will try the oil my brother just brought me. He says he also has some used oil from forklifts. These are propane lifts and the oil does not appear dirty. This may be my best bet since I can get it easily and there will always be plenty of it. I do think I need to cut it a bit with some lighter oil or cutting fluid. Thanks guys and keep the suggestions coming. Michael White Dallas Hotrod Parts www.dallashotrodparts.com ------- Desperation...Cutting Fluid [MyMyford] Posted by: "furkaoberalp" a.websterx~xxsympatico.ca Date: Sat Sep 6, 2008 12:53 pm ((PDT)) Last weekend my Myford swarf generator exceeded my wildest expectations when I produced a chrome steel mandrel, for pounding platimum bracelets on, 250 mm long and tapered 55 to 32 mm. My goldsmith wife was esctatic until the plague of little chippings became apparent. Monster tapers mean inconsistent fpm and spirals only 30% of the time. The rest is nasty flesh-devouring animalicules of rainbow colours. Far more important than picking spiral bits out of the flesh of screaming children is the question of cutting fluid. I have been using Safety Tap simply because I had a lot on hand and it works well, and I have never had to slosh so much on. The problem is that chips wet with this stuff quickly corrode, and even tiny ones leave marks on the shiny S7. I clean up after jobs but even the specks cause tiny corrosion marks. No more Safety Tap except fot taps and the drilling machine. I have had to blast everything with WD-40 and the clean-up will be a right pain. Can anyone recommend a general purpose cutting fluid obtainable in Canada which is properly inert and will not cause this corrosion? How is lard oil for instance? Help please. I am seriously considering hurling myself off the sea cliffs onto the white foaming breakers, like a lemming. Andrew ------- Re: Desperation...Cutting Fluid Posted by: "David Forsyth" notLeftBehindx~xxiwr.ru.ac.za Date: Sun Sep 7, 2008 3:49 am ((PDT)) Roast a chicken, collect the fat/oil from the pan. Awesome stuff. Doesn't go off, doesn't rust (actually I think it prevent rust like an oil coating would), smells nice too. (Just keep the dogs away, they will want to eat the swarf cos it tastes like chicken.) Lard oil will be just as good if not better than chicken, but, might be harder to come by. To me, the fat is a free by product of roasting a chicken, ergo very economically desirable. ------- Re: Desperation...Cutting Fluid Posted by: "DA. Forsyth" notLeftBehindx~xxiwr.ru.ac.za Date: Mon Sep 8, 2008 5:52 am ((PDT)) On 7 Sep 2008 at 14:57, furkaoberalp murmured decisively: > David, > The rendered chicken liquamen really doesn't become loathesome with > time, nor impose a state of general putrifaction on and about the > lathe and its operator ?? No indeed it does not go off. My tin lies in the workshop for as long as it takes to empty it. In the case of the recently depleted tin, that took nigh on 2 years. The workshop is unheated, so winter it drops to 5c or so, but in summer it can hit 40 quite easily. No problem. Open tin by the way, not closed up. What you will see is a brown discoloration where bits of swarf drop into the stuff, but the swarf is still there to be retrieved. A coating of this stuff ends up on my toolpost, and it has never rusted except for the time I cleaned it.... > If you are prepared to sell your children into slavery by way of > guarantee that you are not having me on, I will roast a chicken and > try the squeazings as cutting fluid. Too late, they already went on Ebay (-: David http://iwr.ru.ac.za/~iwdf/ ------- Re: Desperation...Cutting Fluid Posted by: "furkaoberalp" a.websterx~xxsympatico.ca Date: Mon Sep 8, 2008 5:57 pm ((PDT)) Alright, I shall presently slay a member of Class Aves and render it down to make the magical fowl liquamen. If its effects are malevolent I shall dispatch a terminator. It will be less disagreeable if you answer "yes" when asked if you are Sarah Connor. aw ------- [MyMyford] Using RTD and other paste cutting compounds for turning, drilling, t Posted by: "tr0up" a.troupx~xxemail.com Date: Sun Sep 14, 2008 4:10 am ((PDT)) I thought I'd pass on a frugal and ergonomically satisying way of dispensing such compounds from a tin, common in industry: 1) Punch a hole in the middle of the lid, just a little more than big enough for 2) A rod, ideally around 4mm dia, of brass, brazing wire, or similar, bent to a circle at the top. The rod should be maybe a bit more than twice as long as the depth of the tin. The point of using brass is that it's strong enough to stay straight, unlike say alu alloy, when used in a relatively small size which, if you misjudge particularly when milling, and it gets sucked into the cut, is soft and ductile enough that it hopefully won't destroy the cutter or the workpiece. If you ever contemplate using it for milling, it would pay to make the circle at the top small enough that no-one using it could poke a finger through it! Although RTD stands for 'reaming, tapping and drilling' it does work tolerably well for turning; I have a friend who uses nothing else, and turns out amazing work in tricky materials. Unfortunately it does not share the olfactory merits of bacon dripping, in fact rather the reverse, if you're pushing the feeds and speeds... (a good incentive to refrain from inflicting indignities on a gracious old lady like a Myford 7 I personally find flattery - say with fashionably sharp tooling - more productive in the long term than brute force and bellicosity....) I forgot to add: I use a similar dispensing method for hand cleaner, but using a bigger rod. More simple and reliable than the pump, which often seems to clog at the slow throughput of a one-man shop. I use 12mm grey PVC rod for this, seems to dispense about the right amount (starting with a close fitting hole in the lid, the clearance of said hole can be gradually increased with a taper reamer until the amount left on the rod is sufficient). Incidentally, I find PVC rod to be a great low cost engineering plastic, unlike some which are almost on a par with gold on a cost per kg basis (perhaps not at the moment, but a handful of years ago!) It's not a very good bushing material, but there are lots of jobs it is perfectly adequate for, and its ability to be glued is a bonus, as is the availability of UPVC plumbing fittings, like straight reducers, tees, etc etc.. I also buy it in plate form. The only drawback is that when I machine it it makes me sneeze ! I guess the (probably toxic) fumes contain something I'm allergic to. ------- NOTE TO FILE: The atlas_craftsman group in October started a thread on lathe lubricants that exploded into a conversation of dozens of messages without really saying much that is not already in this file. I was skimming these messages, and my eyes were glazing over, when along came the unique following message. It sure made my day and I hope you will enjoy it also. [LOL] Very big thank you to Anthony. ------- Re: Oiling The Ways; ATF? [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: "ajxnagy" ajxnagyx~xxsbcglobal.net Date: Sun Oct 19, 2008 3:01 pm ((PDT)) After reading the various discussions about lubricants and, in my opinion, several misconceptions I offer the following reference if you want to learn about lubricants: The Standard Handbook of Lubrication Engineering published by McGraw-Hill. I specificaly reference Chapter 15 for information about the properties of specific lubricants. By the way - ATF is a low viscosity fluid -it is comparable to a non detergent 10W SAE viscosity grade motor oil. The Society of Automotive Engineers (SAE) came up with standard viscosities to respond to the variations in operating temperatures and climate conditions at which automobiles are operated. The standard viscosity is measured at 100 and 210 F. A 10W oil is recommended and carries maximum viscosity limits for temperatures at 0 degrees F. (So the battery of your car can crank and start the engine after being left overnight on the street in Minneapolis during winter). Heavier weight or higher viscosity oils are recommended for high temperature protection (more than the boiling point of water) after the engine warms up or when you are towing your lathe over the Rocky Mountains at 120 miles per hour. Since I don't operate the lathe at 0 degrees or above 212 degrees my goal is lubrication between 50 and 110 degrees (my garage seasonal temperature range). A 10 grade oil viscosity is very acceptable lubrication for both axial and radial load bearings for this temperature range. If you wish to operate at -40 to -60 F I recommend a synthetic fluid however any common carbon steel will generally become brittle and fracture at these temperatures. If you have a shop that operates below -60 F it would probably be a good idea to have all sophisticated alloy equipment and only work with alloys. If it is your desire to operate your machinery at temperatures above 400 degrees F most oils will approach nearly the same viscosity with very slight differences depending on additive packages. You might also want to have a fire hose nearby for cooling both yourself and the equipment. Of course you will first have to figure out how to have liquid water from the fire hose. If you want to go above 600 degrees F you might try another planet with a different mother of all mothers nature. I don't believe things as we know them will work very well in close tolerance and long life at temperature extremes. Is anybody in the group operating their 618 lathe at 500 F? If so what lubricant do you recommend? Would you have any recommendations for special clothing or protection? Should I notify my local fire department to make sure they know where I live? ATF has good antifoaming properties, antirust, noncorrosive, non- deterioration of rubber or gaskets, oxidation stability to moderately high temperatures, good stick-slip properties, antiwear properties and extreme pressure properties. It doesn't have any detergents or dispersants (it wouldn't make any difference to me if it did since my lathe is not susceptible to products of an internal combustion engine). It does stink and smoke if you use it for cutting fluid. My shop is normally filled with smoke and the smoke alarm is on continuously. Has any one in the group had a similar experience? If I wet a rag and put it over the smoke alarm would this help? What kind of rag should I use? Way oil is formulated to be tacky and thick to prevent "squeeze out" from underneath heavy slow moving machine carriages. The additive package in way oil is probably not as sophisticated as the ATF package. Way oil most likely costs more than ATF fluid because it is produced in smaller quantities that ATF and has specialty channel distribution. My local Dollar Saver store does not carry way oil and they don't even know what it is. Has anybody had any success using old bryl creme or baby oil? Is Johnson's baby oil a good brand? The carriage of my 618 lathe isn't very large and doesn't weigh enough to be concerned about "sqeeze out" or stick-slip operation. Is there anyone operating a 618 lathe with a 300 pound carriage? How about 200 pounds? Should I add bags of lead shot to my carriage so that I can justify using way oil? There are many formulations for cutting oils - one of the biggest requirements is heat transfer capability and cooling. In today's world concern for smoking, fogging, physiological effects, toxicity, dermatitis, etc. is very important. Antibacterial properties is also important considering that some machinists still chew tobacco and spit in circulating fluids. Can I use spit to cool my work? Are there better spits to use? I am using out of date insecticide for lubrication. My arms turn red and I am irritated after using my lathe and my wife is telling me I stink. Does it make any difference how old the the insecticide is? PS I recommend this because I don't have any insects in my shop since I started doing this. Most lubricants are composed of a base oil and an additive package. The base oil serves to cool and carry the additives to the points of wear and to absorb and neutralize bad actors that cause corrosion and sludges. The base oils come from crude oils that come from locations all over the world. Properties are varied by boiling range and other refining techniques. Synthetic base oils are made from some of the individual species found in petroleum and can be tailored to meet fairly precise and narrow properties. Is Mobil 1 better than Penzoil? Can I make some synthetic oil from a yard of synthetic material I found in my wife's sewing room? How about synthetic carpet? By all means everyone should make up their own minds about what to use on their equipment but it is recommended to verify for yourself by doing a little studying. Even though it will do the job I don't see the need to use a 10 pound sledge hammer to kill flies. If you are running a machine shop with extremely expensive and high tolerance equipment you should follow the advice of the manufacturer of the machine regarding lubrication. If you are building aircraft for the military you probably have a lubrication specialist on staff. With my hobby 618 lathe I have a tray with three squeeze bottles containing ATF fluid, Power Steering fluid, and 90 weight gear oil. I doubt that I will develop much need for more specific task oriented lubricants. Is anyone using a 618 lathe to make an automobile engine block? I am having trouble fitting this 28 inch 400 pound block of iron between the 18 inch centers. Any thoughts would be appreciated. Is anyone planning to make a replacement shaft for one of the McPherson struts on their car? What lubricant should I use so that the bearings don't heat up and cause distortion of the spindle? What cutting oil should I use to make a high tolerance pump seal out of brass? I have tried spitting on it but that doesn't seem to work. Will different spit work better? I have considered using spray on motorcycle chain lubricant for the gears and lead screw. My intuition tells me that the gears and lead screw of the lathe are under considerably less pressure than the teeth and links of a motorcycle plus the lubrication is accomplished with less mess than the gear oil and significantly less attraction to grit and other solid particles. (This might be a good idea) Is anyone in the group doing this? It certainly works well for motorcycle chains and sprockets. Some comments in the group seem to create some really off the wall comments. I expect the above writing will. I hope it might bring a smile or two. Oh, by the way now that I thought about walls. I am building a wall and some shelving. Is any one in the group using their 618 lathe to make nails? If I need 600 nails and I can make 1 nail every 10 minutes how long will it take me? Would it be less trouble to buy some nails? Does anyone know where I can get some nails? I also saw someone in the group was having fun making chips on their lathe. I am planning a fun trip to Las Vegas. Does anyone have a plan for chips? Do I need a different lubricant for plastic? Excuse my silliness but I just could not resist it My intention is not meant to offend but to stimulate serious thought in the midst of humor. Enough already about lubricants. The internet and the library are full of information on machinery lubrication and bearings. Here is just one example: http://www.machinerylubrication.com/article_detail.asp?articleid=752&re latedbookgroup=Lubrication ------- Re: Sewing machine oil, Mobil Velocite No. 6, et al [sherline] Posted by: "Pierre Coueffin" pcoueffinx~xxgmail.com Date: Thu Oct 23, 2008 8:30 am ((PDT)) On Oct 23, 2008 Charles Fox wrote: > Conversely, can anyone suggest a good container for 3-in-1 oil? I find > the dumb tops keep splitting, are tricky to get on and off neatly -- > without losing a drop. I like a syringe with a large needle (they sell them for injecting marinade into meat) to apply both lubricants and adhesives precisely. I store the bulk of the liquid in mason jars. Then again, I store a lot of things in mason jars. I like being able to see what is in the jar. ------- Re: Sewing machine oil, Mobil Velocite No. 6, et al Posted by: "n2562001" jlkiefferx~xxcharter.net Date: Thu Oct 23, 2008 10:10 am ((PDT)) "turnandbore" wrote: > Greetings all, > Joe Martin in his book recommends sewing machine oil for general use > on Sherline machine tools. I think Mobil Velocite No. 6 may be > equivalent. Does anyone know for sure? Thanks. Name??? Joe Martin should be given all of the credit in the world for refining and efficiently manufacturing Sherline products at a great value for the Dollar. For my three hours a day 7 days a week on small machines for the past 20 years or so, I almost always select Sherlines from the many small machines I own. Having said that I sometimes respectfully disagree with Joe on the use of and the maintenance of the machines based on my own personal experience. This would be one of those cases based on the use of the machines for mostly metals. Personally I use SAE 40 motor oil on all of the ways before and after each day's use and cleaning. I have found this to be the most efficient weight of oil to prevent most grit and small chips from entering the gibs/slides when properly adjusted for accuracy. Once it works its way in, it remains in place longer than lighter or heavier oils. For the leadscrews I use spray motor cycle chain grease. It also stays in place much longer than other products I have used. It is applied once or twice a week. While many products have worked for this application, I personally prefer "Justice Brothers" HDCL/19 if for no other reason than the controllable application process. Jerry Kieffer [and in a later message] Justice Brothers Products are normally sold to Auto repair facilities by route sales people. I suspect that you can get retail/sales person info on their web site at http://www.shop.justicebrothers.com/main.sc I personally have the route sales person stop by the house when he is in the area. They have never minded selling one or two cans at a time. ------- Re: dead center lubrication [taigtools] Posted by: "Dean Williams" deanofidx~xxyahoo.com Date: Sun Oct 26, 2008 4:03 pm ((PDT)) Johnny Davis wrote: > Hi all, > Can any one recommend what sort of lube to use for the tailstock dead > center when turning between centers on the taig lathe. Johnny A good quality high temperature bearing grease will work well. I use a brand called Red and Tacky. Any brand made for cars with disc brakes will do. Whatever you use, you need to keep in mind that the tighter you push the dead center into the hole in your work, the more heat it will produce. Also, when turning between centers, you will be creating heat in your workpiece, which will cause it to expand -- pushing it harder into your tail center. To make sure things aren't getting too hot, touch your finger to the dead center every minute or two. If it gets too warm for comfort, loosen the tail stock ram a little, and re-lube if necessary. If the grease on the center starts to sag or drip, it's too hot. Dean ------- Re: dead center lubrication Posted by: "Shad" shendersonx~xxthegeekgroup.org Date: Mon Oct 27, 2008 5:36 am ((PDT)) Hi All, I've used axle grease, regular grease, synthetic grease, even vaseline in a pinch. I have also used powdered graphite, and that worked very surprisingly well. A little messy, though. I found that some masking tape on the aluminum part, overhanging the workpiece-dead center interface keeps the mess from graphite or grease slinging off to a minimum. Remember that the workpiece will heat up and expand, which can cause excessive friction. Also, keep in mind that if you're turning aluminum, it *must* be well lubricated, and it'll still gall a bit on the dead center. Especially if you're turning a taper, or crowding the feed/speed a little. Of course, a good live center will keep you from galling aluminum also. Hope it helps! Shad H. ------- Cutting Oil [MyMyford] Posted by: "Allen J. Gawne" allenx~xxmanx.net Date: Sat Dec 20, 2008 6:03 am ((PST)) I intend to use a pumped coolant system to dispense cutting oil rather that a water based cutting fluid so avoiding any corrosion damage to my lathe. Do any members have experience of using an oil-based system and are they able to recommend suitable UK based brands of cutting oil. Thank you for any advice, which will be greatly appreciated. ------- Re: Cutting Oil Posted by: "tomservo_9504" tomservo_9504x~xxyahoo.com Date: Sat Dec 20, 2008 7:24 am ((PST)) I'm not sure anyone can give meaningful recommendations without knowing what materials you plan on turning and the spindle speeds you expect to be using.. What type of tooling, HSS or carbide? If you're going to be using relatively high spindle speeds, or larger work pieces, an oil 'bath' will fling crap EVERYWHERE. On another note, the modern water based cutting fluids have good corrosion inhibitors in them. Enco's #1 cutting and tapping fluid, which I believe to be PEG based, is a gel-like purple fluid that really sticks to the work and does a fantastic job. But I too prefer an oil based product, for peace of mind. If I'd known it was water based I probably would not have bought it. That said, it does a FANTASTIC job as a fluid for drilling holes in steel and stainless steel because it clings so well. It was well worth the $3 or so a liter cost me. For everything else I use Cool Tool II, which I had THOUGHT to be a light cutting oil - but which freezes like lard at about -10C. And like ice at -30C! No idea what's in it, but it works well and doesn't take much - but it's also not clingy at all. ------- Re: Paraffin-Base Motor Oil [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: "WM HANSON" wedhansonx~xxverizon.net Date: Fri Jan 16, 2009 12:09 pm ((PST)) Paraffin based oils consist of long straight chains of carbon and hydrogen atoms. Most other crudes are mainly aromatic crudes. They are made up of cyclic and heterocyclic carbon/hydrogen linkages. Years ago, most all automotive oils were did not contain any detergents. Engines were much more crude and had larger openings for conduction of oil to the moving parts. Temperatures were lower which led to less production of very long chains which turned into gunk like asphaltic material. Today's engines are built to much tighter tolerances and produce a lot more heat, so the detergents and viscosity stabilizers are there to keep the oil moving through the smaller sized oil galleries. The dirt, worn off metal particles and carbonized deposits are left behind in the filter, which of course weren't even used in automotive engines say of 50 or more years ago. No one, today should even consider using a non-detergent oil in a modern engine. The refining and chemical processes used to make lubricating oil today produce nearly all the same type of oil. The differences being in amount of detergents, the viscosity characteristics, which are controlled by the molecular chain lengths and the viscosity stabilizer additives. Hope this can put this discussion to bed, at least for now. W. Ed Hanson ------- [atlas_craftsman] Mad Chemist's Hour - You too can make cup grease in your kitchen!!! Posted by: "Bruce Freeman" freemab222x~xxgmail.com Date: Sun Mar 1, 2009 10:44 am ((PST)) I'm an unemployed chemist, which will explain some of what follows. Before I settled on a small tube of lithium grease to lubricate certain parts of my lathe, I found myself very frustrated not to be able to find cup grease (lime grease or calcium grease) commercially available. They still make it in India, but I can't find a US supplier. All it is is lime or calcium soap (as opposed to the lye or sodium soap you use to wash your hands) mixed with mineral oil. No big deal. So I took matters into my own hands. My first attempt involved converting some (home made) household lye soap to lime soap, then adding mineral oil. This was messy and inefficient, so I came up with the following one-step recipe. Note that this recipe was designed to use household ingredients: soap, mineral oil, calcium chloride (ice melter), and water. In real life, tallow, mineral oil, and hydrated lime would be used, but the last is not readily available and the saponification of tallow with lime is less easy than with lye. 1) Use a cheese grater to grate 4 oz. lye soap (Ivory should do). 2) Place this grated soap in a SS pot or bowl and add 1 pint of warm tap water. 3) Use your wife's hand-held blender to dissolve the soap and whip it into dense suds. (You can tell her you're cleaning it for her.) 4) Add between 3 oz. and 22 oz of mineral and continue blending to mix - it should blend in easily. The more oil you add, the softer the cup grease. (I used mineral oil USP from the drug store, on sale for $2 per quart. I used 9 oz and can report decent results.) Now rinse the hand blender in hot tap water - it should come out nice and clean - and put it away. You do NOT want to use it in the next steps. 5) Stir to dissolve 2 oz. calcium chloride ice melt (without sodium chloride salt, urea, or any other ingredients) in 1/2 pint of hot tap water. 6) Add the calcium chloride solution to the soap suds, and stir thoroughly to convert the suds into a curds-and-whey-like mass of cup grease containing large droplets of water. 7) As soon as the cup grease is in more or less one mass in the pot or bowl, drain off the excess water. 8) Keep stirring to agglomerate the cup grease and eliminate the water, which you should keep pouring off. 9) Optional: Spread a dense cloth (like an old T-shirt) over a SS or glass bowl, and scrape the cup grease into the T-shirt. The idea is to hang the shirt by its corners from some support like a jelly bag to help eliminate the balance of the water. Continued stirring is an alternative. Don't expect to save the T-shirt, as this grease may never wash out of it! My theoretical yield (with 9 oz of mineral oil) was 11 oz cup grease. I haven't weighed it to check. If anyone else is crazy enough to try this completely unnecessary exercise, I'd like to hear from them about their results. Bruce NJ ------- Re: prevent rust on Table saw WD-40? NOT! [shopbuilttools] Posted by: "gjensen1234" gjensen1234x~xxyahoo.com Date: Sun Mar 8, 2009 8:47 pm ((PDT)) Mike Graham wrote: > I found some cool lube for all my woodworking tools.. I dont usually > try and promote someones product.. but this stuff is cool. Slip-It > http://www.slipit.com/home.html I purchased a "starter kit" two different cans -- one called Sil-free for those of us that Freak out with silicone in the wood shop (one tiny little spot of silicon on wood and the finish will Birdseye around that spot) and one can of regular Slip-it sliding compound. I have found so many uses for this stuff and still have not used the pint I got two years ago. I have not used it as a rust preventive, but that is one of its advertised features. Below is their ad. I must say "good stuff" and if I remember it was cheap. Good Luck Gregory Jensen "A workhorse lubricant like its counterpart SLIPIT Sliding Compound. Worth the effort of a gel. * No fisheye * Non-toxic * Inhibits rust & corrosion * Attracts less dust * Easy stir & flow gel" ------- Re: prevent rust on Table saw WD-40? NOT! Posted by: "Rick Shaffer" rickshafx~xxyahoo.com Date: Sun Mar 8, 2009 9:07 pm ((PDT)) At the risk of re-beating a dead, already-beaten horse, I offer the following: (Note that I didn't have the time to read every post in this thread....) I'd agree about the efficacy of Slip-It(tm) for lubricating the ways and many other moving parts of various machines. However, I'm still using good-ole paste wax, the kind they use to lubricate bowling lanes, on the table of my radial-arm saw. When I run out of the large can I got from a friend who, literally, owned a bowling center, I'm betting I can find more on the WWW. Also, I've found that Liquid Wrench(tm) does a lot of the things for which others use WD-40(tm), and it's not corrosive. Finally, Sta-Lube(tm) makes a lubricant that they say is designed as an assembly-grease for folks who are assembling an automobile motor. The grease itself is Molybdenum-DiSulfide, but it has graphite in it, as well. It's the messiest stuff around, but it makes anything that needs a minimum amount of friction to slide, rotate, etc., work about as well as it can. I first used it to grease the worm gears of my telescope mounts so they wouldn't overload their drive motors in cold weather. It works like a charm! Best Regards, Rick Shaffer Cottonwood, AZ ------- Re: A Clean Machine [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: "Russ Kepler" russx~xxkepler-eng.com Date: Tue Mar 17, 2009 6:03 pm ((PDT)) On Tuesday 17 March 2009 17:22:50 bill phelps wrote: > WD IS NOT KEROSENE ALL YOU HAVE TO DO IS SMELL IT AND YOU WILL KNOW THE > DIF. It's not *completely* kerosene, it's just *mostly* kerosene. Here's the MSDS for WD-40: http://www.wd40company.com/files/pdf/msds-wd482671453.pdf Look at the ingredients - 45-50 percent is CAS 64742-47-8 (with CAS 64742-48-9 and 64742-88-7), as well as another 12-18 percent CAS 64742-47-8. So you're looking at 57% at the low end and 68 percent at the high end being CAS 64742-47-8 and "other stuff". CAS 64742-47-8 is a "light petroleum distillate" known as "deoderized kerosene": http://www.ilo.org/public/english/protection/safework/cis/pro ducts/icsc/dtasht/_icsc13/icsc1379.pdf The CAS 64742-48-9 and 64742-88-7 is basically naptha, the stuff we used as lighter fluid in our Zippos. There's another 30% light oil, CAS 64742-65-0, it's just a light oil. So it's 60% kerosene and naptha, 30% oil and some other stuff. What you're smelling is some other stuff they add to it that they don't have to identify, about 10% of the total volume. ------- Re: New craftsman 101 28990 with RUST [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: "Elton E. (Tony) Clark" eltonclarkx~xxgmail.com Date: Sun Mar 29, 2009 6:56 pm ((PDT)) Don't forget the April 2007 "Machinist's Workshop" magazine comparison test. They arranged a subjective test of all the popular penetrants with the control being the torque required to remove the nut from a "scientifically rusted" environment. Penetrating oil ..... Average load None ..................... 516 pounds WD-40 .................. 238 pounds PB Blaster ............. 214 pounds Liquid Wrench ..... 127 pounds Kano Kroil ............ 106 pounds ATF-Acetone mix....53 pounds The ATF-Acetone mix was a "home brew" mix of 50-50 automatic transmission fluid and acetone. Note the "home brew" was better than any commercial product in this one particular test. Our local machinist group mixed up a batch and we all now use it with equally good results. Note also that "Liquid Wrench" is about as good as "Kroil" for about 20% of the price. Your experience may vary, etc., etc. Tony ------- NOTE TO FILE (May 2010): The above mixture has been used by many folks over the past year. Some were surprised/discouraged by the fact that the mixture soon separates, as acetone actually does not dissolve the ATF. Others have been very happy, learning that it helps to put a couple of nuts in the bottle of mixture and shake vigorously just before using. ------- Re: frozen chuck [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: "John W." firearms_engravingx~xxmac.com Date: Wed May 6, 2009 9:31 am ((PDT)) Yep, I can vouch for the acetone/ATF mix. I've been using it for about 15 years to "unstick" the frozen breech plugs from muzzleloading rifles when it's time to ream and rifle an old barrel. I simply plug up the flintlock vent or percussion bolster, stand the barrel on its breech end in a metal pan or bucket, and pour a cup of "stuff" into the muzzle end followed by a tight fitting natural rubber or wooden plug. I let it stand for a day, or until all of the penetrant has flowed through the threaded breech plug into the pan, put the barrel into the vise, and apply the wrench. Presto, one recovered and previously frozen breech plug! The downside, unfortunately, is the fact that acetone is extremely volatile (having a vapor pressure of 180, it likes to evaporate at a rate about 10 times faster than water), and if you mix up a batch, even when stored "properly" the acetone will go away after a bit. Acetone is also extremely flammable, unlike halogenated hydrocarbon solvents, and it does pose the risk of a fire. Use it with care in flame/spark free environments (outdoors?) and always pay close attention to the fact that the vapors are 2 times heavier than air and like to look for heat sources close to the ground, such as water heater and furnace pilot lights. There are also health considerations when handling this (or any chemical). Some of these are as minor as irritation of the eyes from exposure to vapors, or as serious as central nervous system depression and death from inhalation of high concentrations of the vapors. I've added a link to a Materials Safety Data Sheet (MSDS) for your review: http://www.jtbaker.com/msds/englishhtml/A0446.htm So, now you know all that you need to know about a superb solvent and excellent "rustbuster" from a hobby gunsmith, the chemical/fire properties from a Hazardous Materials Technician, and the toxicity info from a Certified Toxicology Paramedic! John Munds Park, AZ ------- Re: frozen chuck Posted by: "David Beierl" dbeierlx~xxattglobal.net Date: Wed May 6, 2009 11:16 pm ((PDT)) At 12:20 AM 5/7/2009, Elton E. (Tony) Clark wrote: >*Wull, I am intellectually insulted by the fact that PB's sales pitch is >based on it's ability to eat a foam cup . . If that was my object, I'd >use lighter fluid, gasoline, lacquer thinner, or nail polish remover. I >want to remove stuck fasteners . . "brew" is about twice as good as >tested and 10 times cheaper!* It's a nasty-looking can, isn't it? I avert my eyes...OTOH it's easy to find in the shop. But they got something right that the other spray penetrants I've used didn't -- when you spray the stuff it comes out in a thin coherent stream and goes exactly where you aim it. That right there is worth a lot to me. Acetone is horrible stuff, will suck the fat right out of your skin, not to mention eating everything in sight. Wouldn't surprise me a bit if it ate eyeglass lenses, and plastic watch crystals. I used to use Liquid Wrench until they came up with the deodorized version. I didn't mind the smell of the old stuff, but the new one has an odor that is nauseating to me. There are persistent rumors that Marvel Mystery Oil has ATF in it. Dunno, but it seems to be a useful blend of penetrants/lubricants for freeing up small motors and such. Not to mention freeing up stuck rings in old sailboat engines... Rambling Syd Rumpo ------- Beyond the O ring Groove Cutting [sherline] Posted by: "chieftoolmaker" chieftoolmakerx~xxearthlink.net Date: Sun May 10, 2009 3:48 am ((PDT)) This is for Harry and any others who need to install O rings. There are a number of lubricants available for O ring installation. It is not unusual to damage and/or cut O rings when installing them. I don't run into that anymore, but I had a nice bottle (plastic) of whitish, milky like fluid for the purpose. Don't remember the name. Bottle was misplaced/lost during the selling and vacating of my house last July. Did a great job. No residue. Jerry G (Glickstein) P.S. A really good name for O rings (and many other products) is Parker/Hannifin. No commercial connection P.P.S. Another good way to go is to use the native fluid in the system. i.e. hydraulic cylinders, etc. ------- Re: Beyond the O ring Groove Cutting Posted by: "n2562001" jlkiefferx~xxcharter.net Date: Sun May 10, 2009 8:54 am ((PDT)) Mr. Chief: You should try the stuff that says "Wheel Bearing Grease" on the side of the container. Not only will it make installation easy, it will also help hold the "O" ring in place. Jerry Kieffer ------- Re: Beyond the O ring Groove Cutting Posted by: "chieftoolmaker" chieftoolmakerx~xxearthlink.net Date: Sun May 10, 2009 8:58 am ((PDT)) Mr. Good Buddy, what about contamination? Jerry G (Glickstein) ------- Re: Beyond the O ring Groove Cutting Posted by: "n2562001" jlkiefferx~xxcharter.net Date: Sun May 10, 2009 4:16 pm ((PDT)) Mr. G: You can find an exception for just about anything including the "White stuff" you mentioned. However in practice I suspect most will find common grease to be very practical and easy to manage. Jerry Kieffer ------- Re: O ring lubricant Posted by: "DA Dossin" danatlx~xxyahoo.com Date: Sun May 10, 2009 5:01 pm ((PDT)) Lubricant depends upon the usage and the material of the o-ring. Most o-rings come with a lubricant on them. Put a petroleum based grease on an o-ring for a high pressure air system, make sure your insurance is paid up. There is a very good chance it will either bust into flames or explode. I agree with, using the medium in which the o-ring is to be installed. In the US Navy, we would many times use a product called "Dow Corning 4 compound." It is a "non-melting silicone dielectric and lubricant manufactured to comply with the latest issue of Spec. MIL-I-8660" (effective from -70F to 400F). Confession time: I still have a little left of the tube that left the Navy with me. Way way back then, it was considered a very expensive product but also, duct tape was a brand new product too. No idea of the availability nor cost these days. Dan [and in a later message from Dan:] Supplier: one source http://www.skygeek.com/dc4.html Apparently, it was developed in 1943, designed to insulate electrical connections of high flying aircraft but, worked fine on O-rings. It would keep the o-ring from sticking to the metal permanently yet, allow the necessary 'stickiness' to allow assembly. (Gotta love the internet.... more information that you know what to do with it.} Cost: $14.95 plus shipping. 5.3 oz tube The MSDS sheet: http://www.polysi.com/dow%20corning%20msds%20sheets/DC%20Tech%20&%20M SDS%20Sheets/DC%20COMPOUNDS%20TECH%20SHEETS/DC%204.pdf ------- Re: O ring lubricant Posted by: "shawn c" shawncd1x~xxmsn.com Date: Sun May 10, 2009 7:34 pm ((PDT)) Dow Corning 55 I have several cases. I would sell a tube for $10. Best stuff I've found for o-rings ------- Re: O ring lubricant update Posted by: "shawn c" shawncd1x~xxmsn.com Date: Sun May 10, 2009 8:04 pm ((PDT)) I was talking about spark plug boot grease. The Corning 55 msds looks like plain old dielectric available at any auto parts store. ------- Change gears - lube or not? [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: "hwandre" mandrex~xxen.com hwandre Date: Mon Sep 7, 2009 1:15 pm ((PDT)) Hello all, I just finished cleaning all the change gears and studs, spacers, etc as the lubricant I use (Gear Shield Heavy - the replacement for Keystone No. 122 Gear Lube) just is too dirty! It does a great job of quieting the gear train and I'm sure protects it from wear of any kind, but I'm relatively sure it contains molybdenum disulphide (MoS2) and that leaves a persistent black coating on anything it touches, including one's hands! So much so, I avoid doing any threading if I have to change the gear train setup for the lead screw. It seems I've seen a number of photos of other's machines where it appears the gears are pristine and untouched by any lubricant. What is the general recommendation? I only use this lathe for pleasure and it doesn't get heavily loaded 99% of the time. Best, Mike ------- Re: Change gears - lube or not? Posted by: "Glenn N" sleykinx~xxcharter.net Date: Mon Sep 7, 2009 1:34 pm ((PDT)) I went the molly route first but switched over to way oil. It hangs in there pretty well and keeps it quiet without all the black. No way around messy gears that I have found though. I oil the bearings in the gears with 10 wt. ------- Re: Change gears - lube or not? Posted by: "JACK SIMS" JACK-BR549x~xxWORLDNET.ATT.NET Date: Mon Sep 7, 2009 1:38 pm ((PDT)) Those gears are clean because they take the photos after the re-build. After you put any kind of lube on them and run them for a while they start to look like the machine is being used for what it was intended. If I see a set of gears that has no lube on them and are too clean I think that the machine has not been run or worse it has been run dry and that is no good for anything. Jack Sims ------- Re: Change gears - lube or not? Posted by: "Michael Schetterer" finegrainmetalx~xxhotmail.com Date: Mon Sep 7, 2009 1:42 pm ((PDT)) I like LPS "Red-n-Redy" spray lube on my end gears. ------- Re: Change gears - lube or not? Posted by: "PeterH" peterh5322x~xxrattlebrain.com Date: Mon Sep 7, 2009 2:19 pm ((PDT)) I use turbine oil for everything except the ways, for which I use Vactra #2 Way Oil. To each his own. ------- Re: Change gears - lube or not? Posted by: "hwandre" mandrex~xxen.com Date: Mon Sep 7, 2009 4:00 pm ((PDT)) Hello all, Much as I expected, no consensus other than some lubricant is necessary. I've been running with SAE 20 ND on the studs and wherever there is metal to metal sliding contact. Seems to be fine and a lot cleaner than the Gear Shield. Best, Mike ------- Re: Change gears - lube or not? Posted by: "doc" n8as1x~xxaol.com Date: Mon Sep 7, 2009 6:42 pm ((PDT)) A tad of STP immediately hushes up the gear train ..also great for lubing a dead center ... still have the same can almost 50 yrs later. Best wishes Docn8as -------- Re: Atlas TH42 Lathe Rebuild Main spindle help needed Posted by: "jerdalx~xxsbcglobal.net" Date: Sun Nov 1, 2009 5:53 am ((PST)) > The advice for the stuck chuck was good. Penetrating oils work by > seeping in between mating parts dissolving rust as they seep through. Penetrating oils often do work. But there is not one single penetrating oil ever made that "dissolves rust". "Dissolving rust" makes it sound as if the oil will run out again carrying the rust away as some sort of liquid, leaving the parts loose and rattly so you can unscrew them by hand. Not even close. All that the oil does is to lubricate the rust flakes so that they slide over each other and no longer lock up to freeze the part in position. The "penetrating" part means that they are thin enough, or have a thin enough "carrier solvent", that they wick into tight spots and do their lubrication job. Time and light heating can help to get the penetrating oil to wick into the tight spots. Some impact, by whacking a wrench, can help break loose larger rust particles or break them into smaller pieces so that the oil can lube them effectively. It won't actually "dissolve" a large particle, nor even penetrate it if it is solid, so the oil requires some mechanical help to work. Without the oil, you can still break up the particles, but after a tiny amount of turnig, they catch on each other and lock up again. Oil reduces that tendedcy, but normal oils won't ever wick into the rusty areas. Hence the solvent portion, which is thin and has a low surface tension, so it "wets" the rust, and carries the heavier oil along as it wicks in. Using a material when you know how it actually works is generally more effective than trying to use it according to a folk legend JT ------- that waxy paper [sherline] Posted by: "arcmaster3" tomx~xxwade.name Date: Sat Nov 7, 2009 7:35 pm ((PST)) Many of the tool items I order from Sherline come wrapped in a brown paper with a waxy feel to it. Anyone know what this stuff is called? I assume that it is some sort of a corrosion protection. Tom Wade Hope, Indiana ------- Re: that waxy paper Posted by: "chieftoolmaker" chieftoolmakerx~xxearthlink.net Date: Sat Nov 7, 2009 7:48 pm ((PST)) Hi Tom, that is: VCI - Anti Rust Paper. You assume correctly. Comes in rolls, sheets, etc. Jerry G (Glickstein) ------- Re: that waxy paper Posted by: "DA Dossin" danatlx~xxyahoo.com Date: Sat Nov 7, 2009 8:24 pm ((PST)) Need a small supply? Try this place I found on the net. http://www.vcipapersales.com/ No idea of the price nor anything else about the place. ------- Re: that waxy paper Posted by: "Chuck Rice" Chuckx~xxWildRice.com Date: Sun Nov 8, 2009 10:43 am ((PST)) If you cannot find any of this paper, you can use Boeshield T-9 to accomplish the same effect. Put the part on a sheet of printer paper, then spray the T-9 on the part and paper. For long term storage, leave the paper and part till it dries. Then wrap the part in the paper. This will leave a sticky film on the part that you can remove with Kerosene or more T-9 when you pull it from storage. For protection on items that you use, do the same, but after allowing it to soak in for 5 minutes or so, wipe it off with a towel. This will leave a thin wax coat on the tool without the stickiness of the long term storage method. After using and cleaning the tool, apply another light coat and keep it wrapped in the T-9 paper. If you already have rust, you can use one of the acid based removers to remove it, but this will remove some of the metal too. For things that you do not want to use acid on, there is some stuff called Evapo- Rust that you can leave the part soaking in overnight. It only attacks the rusted metal, but not the un-rusted. You can get the T-9 at a sears store (although I hate to go there as I distrust sears tools so much). They sell it in a spray can with a bottle of the RustFree rust remover, but it is $20 to $30 to buy it this way. You can also get it from Amazon for about the same price. I started with the spray cans, but now, I buy it by the gallon. I get a gallon of the T-9 and a gallon of the Evapo-rust from the rust store http://www.theruststore.com/ and a good-quality spray bottle and 2 gallon bucket at Home Depot. I lived in silicon-valley for 25 years and never had any rust problems. I moved to Houston and it has been a battle ever since. Chuck ------- [atlas_craftsman] Resto Help!!/ paint color match sugestion!! [LUBRICATING YOUR LATHE] Posted by: "catboat15x~xxaol.com" olewilly2000 Date: Wed Nov 18, 2009 10:09 pm ((PST)) Can't help on the paint color, but generally you don't pack roller bearings with grease unless there is room for the grease to expand into. (The wheels of a car are packed with grease, but there is expansion space under the cap for the grease to expand into as it heats up.) The reason you don't want to grease the lathe bearings is that the heat of running will heat the grease, the grease expands, putting more pressure on the bearing which makes it hotter still which expands the grease more and so on until you have a frozen bearing with cooked grease jammed inside. One plant I worked in was having an epidemic of burnt out pump bearings and the problem was traced to the new pneumatic grease gun we had purchased for the "oiler" guy. With his old manual grease gun he would visit each bearing, give it a squirt or two then move on, but with his new toy he was packing grease in the bearing until it was full and then some. Heat, expansion, more heat ruined the bearing. So in that particular case we drilled an extra tapped hole in each housing about half way up the bearing and fitted a plug. Instructions to the oiler were to take out the plug, pump in grease until some new grease shows at the hole, then put the plug back in place. This was a multi unit large power plant so a lot of pumps were involved as almost every pump station had a duplicate pump that was swiched into use each week. So this week we used the "A" pumps and next week the "B" pumps and some critical locations had even a set of "C" pumps. So clean the bearings while you have them out (Don't spin them with an air hose while dry); put oil or a light coat of grease on the bearings; put everything back together and apply oil through the oil cups before each use. Check to see that there are "felts" inside the oil holes under the cups; this allows oil to seep through and lubricate the bearings, then just run through onto your nice clean bench. Don't forget some of thehidden oil points; both ends of the lead screw, hidden under set screws (on the cross slide may be under the compound), oil holes on the apron, and one often missed down in the groove of one of the back gear pulleys that looks like a set screw but is the cover for an oil hole that lubricates the gear cluster on the spindle when in back gear. Get the literature from Clausing that shows all the oil points and how often to apply the "Light machine non-degergent oil." Some at each use, some once in a while depending on your use of the lathe. Don't forget the change gears as they need a grease on the teeth and oil where they turn on their shafts. Since my lathe sits unused much of the time under a cloth covering (not plastic, don't want to trap moisture under the cover) I generally oil everything before each use unless I have a project that I am attacking each day -- then I follow the book, daily for some bearings, weekly for others and some when I think it is needed. Have fun and remember that a lathe will cut hard steel and will have no problem with cutting your skin if you allow it. ------- Re: Wood Router - Lubricant for screws and bearings [DIY-CNC] Posted by: "decoder" dec0derx~xxntlworld.com Date: Wed Dec 16, 2009 10:23 am ((PST)) John Jackson wrote:> Hello, > I am refurbing a CNC Wood Router that is about 20 years old. It has a > 19 X 19 inch table and the gantry moves on two one inch shafts with > four linear bearings.The gantry is made of aluminum (not extrusions) > and is fairly heavy. > I am trying to reduce the friction as it is taking way too much torque > to move that around - I cannot get any decent speed without stalling > the motor. I need something that will dry so that once I add MDF dust, > etc. to the mix it will not gum up. Thanks, John Hi , i would suggest P.T.F.E. spray. You can buy it in pressurised spray tins, but i dont know where from. It is a dry powder but very bad for the eyes under pressure. Very slippery and non sticky. Remember, you will never get rid of mdf dust however you try, but hey lubricate the parts to make them run smoothly. Google PTFE spray for a stockist, but it is expensive stuff. Lots of people use it to lubricate the chains on radio controlled cars and buggies. Good luck. Clive ------- Re: Wood Router - Lubricant for screws and bearings Posted by: "doug6949" doug6949x~xxyahoo.com Date: Sun Dec 20, 2009 9:26 am ((PST)) I wonder if this [P.T.F.E.] might contaminate the wood in a way that affected finishing. Perhaps it isn't as bad a silicone though. Doug ------- Re: Wood Router - Lubricant for screws and bearings Posted by: "Kenny" gapdevx~xxyahoo.com Date: Thu Dec 31, 2009 8:22 pm ((PST)) Liquid Wrench Dry Lube w/CERFL, Part #L512 You can get it at Walmart as well as many Hardware stores. I use it on both my CNC routers. Amazing stuff. Kenny ------- Re: Wood Router - Lubricant for screws and bearings Posted by: "andrew.mathison" diy-cncx~xxfreenet.de Date: Mon Jan 11, 2010 11:12 am ((PST)) Hi, I design my CNC Routers so that dust, shavings etc. do not drop onto either the threaded rods or the rails. Lubricant is still needed, but careful design is also needed! regards Andy ------- using wax for cutting [atlas618lathe] Posted by: "John Bump" johnbumpx~xxgmail.com Date: Sun Jan 10, 2010 3:08 pm ((PST)) I use wax for turning, both aluminum and steel, because it has less of a tendency to flick all over the room, stinks less, and seems to give as good a finish as oil for finish cutting. I don't bother with beeswax, though: I just have a candle sitting beside the lathe that I run across the workpiece. I got started doing this when I was taking metalsmithing classes: we had a piece of candle for our jeweler's saws because it kept them from breaking when cutting tight turns. I found it also worked well for hacksawing and while I'm at it, I also use it for lubricant on my bicycle chain. It does very poorly if there's any water around but lasts longer than oil and doesn't collect dust. ------- Re: using wax for cutting Posted by: "MIKE ANDREWS" mikentinkx~xxverizon.net Date: Sun Jan 10, 2010 8:56 pm ((PST)) Way back when I was in trade school our teacher recommended using a wax toilet bowl ring for lube. It works quite well for aluminum. It is cheap, easy to get and comes in a box to store it in when not in use. ------- Re: Milling steel [SherlineCNC] Posted by: "Rich Dean" toolman8x~xxcopper.net Date: Fri Feb 26, 2010 8:14 pm ((PST)) Glen wrote: > Thanks RichD, I don't have any cutting fluid so I'll stick to AI for > now. Can you recommend a good oil that does not have a strong odor? My > mill is in our family room and I don't want to get kicked out of the > house till it warms up here :) Glen: Well, coincidently a friend brought me a can of ACE Hardware thread cutting oil (plumbing stuff) and let me have a sample to test. Hot Damn! It's a clear oil, does not have nearly the odor of dark sulferized oil, smokes a little less AND it turns steel and tool steel beautifully leaving a very good finish. I use brazed tip carbide bits mostly sharpened with diamond wheels, so a sharp edge is important. Also, you must keep the surface wet by dragging a wetted brush along the cut (lathe) and frequent dabs (milling). For aluminum, WD-40 is hard to beat, but I'm experimenting with 50/50 kerosene & oil at this time. Also 90% isopropyl alcohol neat works exceptionally well on Al. and leaves no residue. Downside is you have to apply it almost in a constant stream. RichD ------- lathe oilers [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: "Bill Stietenroth" k5ztyx~xxjuno.com Date: Thu Apr 1, 2010 8:26 am ((PDT)) My lathe has those little oilers pressed flush into the casting with the spring loaded ball in them and I haven't found a good oiler that will push the ball down and insert oil without squirting about as much oil outside as inside the oiler. How do you guys oil those little oil holes? Bill ------- Re: lathe oilers Posted by: "Starlight Tool Services Ltd" starlight_toolsx~xxtelus.net Date: Thu Apr 1, 2010 8:45 am ((PDT)) Bill: Use a pump can oiler, Goldenrod or equivalent. Take a piece of plastic tubing that will just push over the end of the nozzle and cut it so that is is just a bit longer than the nozzle with a clean straight cut. I prefer clear tubing, that way I can see what is happening and needs to be a bit soft, main goal is to create a seal around the ball. Make sure that the area around the ball hole is clean and there is no swarf or chips or ??? Press the plastic tube around the ball and pump the oil can. The pressure of the oil will open the ball and flow the oil into where it needs to go. If you are watching what you are doing, you should be able to see the oil flowing out from under the ways, out the bushings etc. Walter ------- Re: lathe oilers Posted by: "wheezer" wheezer606x~xxverizon.net Date: Thu Apr 1, 2010 8:48 am ((PDT)) I currently use a hypodermic syringe with the tip broken off, leaving about a 2 mm stub. Draw up the oil, the stub pushes the ball down and then slowly inject the oil. I did find at a local craft store a small ~2 oz plastic bottle with a screw on hollow metal tip. I think it might be for glue. I haven't seen them since. lance ------- Re: lathe oilers Posted by: "Russ Kepler" russx~xxkepler-eng.com Date: Thu Apr 1, 2010 9:01 am ((PDT)) With a piston pump oiler like these: http://www.dutton-lainson.com/products.php?cat=53 You push the tip against the ball, moving the ball off the seat and sealing the oiler spout about where the ball was. The oiler can develop more than enough pressure that the ball moves when you pump oil, but some folks file a smallish slot on the tip so the ball doesn't seal. On some of this type of oiler you can make a new tip if the old one fails or doesn't work. I haven't had that experience but I have an older (and now discontinued) brand. ------- Re: lathe oilers Posted by: "christopher locke" c.lockex~xxsnet.net Date: Fri Apr 2, 2010 3:19 pm ((PDT)) I have a little bottle of clock oil (I think LaPearls, or Tufoil, or something) in my shop, and my wife also plays oboe, and she has the same oiler, a little plastic vial about the size of your finger maybe 5" long, with a 1" or so long metal tip, very small, smaller than the ball, and I just press in the ball and put a couple drops in. They're found online as clock oilers, or pen oilers. 5 bucks is worth the vial IMHO. chris ------- Re: lathe oilers Posted by: "JR Hurd" john_hurdx~xxcharter.net Date: Fri Apr 2, 2010 3:34 pm ((PDT)) http://www.brownells.com/.aspx/pid=1200/Product/NEEDLE_OILER_BOTTLES $6.99 for 3 ------- Re: What oil should I use? [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: "n8as1x~xxaol.com" docn8as Date: Sun Apr 11, 2010 11:45 am ((PDT)) STP ....a tad applied to gears after oiling has worked well for near 50 years...quiets things down immediately ..still working on ist bottle ....also xcellent for lubing dead center ..better than anything easily available ......way oil doesn't seem to act differently than 20 or 30 wt non detergent motor oil on my crftsmn lathes...maybe more beneficial on my 14 in monarch & antique 14 in Reed........ dollar general stores have 30 wt non detergent & tractor supply stores have 30 wt non deterg as well as 10 wt non deterg oil .... best wishes ....when i read my copyrite 1937 manual, i either misread it or it called for 20 wt oil for my bronze bearing 6x18....when i bought my 12x36 in 1974, i continued using same (never bothered to read oil wt. instructions ...clever eh? ..) ....35 + years later, still on same set of timken bearings .......apparently more important to keep loaded w/ oil; than with a specific viscosity ..?????? just my experience, not your mandate ...... best wishes docn8as ------- [lubricating lathe gear train] Re: Running noise level [atlas618lathe] Posted by: "Dean" deanwx~xxbmi.net Date: Wed May 5, 2010 8:33 am ((PDT)) "EdwinB" wrote: > I don't use the gears that often, but when I do, I use axle grease. > I have never found any swarf on the gears, and I have trouble > envisioning how swarf would migrate to that part of the lathe. Ever do any boring? It goes right through the spindle and onto the change gears. Swarf gets in very strange places. I have the lead screw on my cross slide covered, and when I periodically take things apart for cleaning, there is always swarf in there. Dean ------- Re: Running noise level Posted by: "ajxnagy" ajxnagyx~xxsbcglobal.net Date: Wed May 5, 2010 8:35 am ((PDT)) Swarf can migrate to the gears via the hole in the spindle - I just place a cork in the hole at the rear of the spindle to prevent this and I use a dab of heavy gear oil on the gears for lubrication. It doesn't take much oil to do the job. AJ ------- Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2010 07:44:35 -0700 From: James Thompson Subject: [OldTools] Home brew penetrating oil Fellow Rustaholics: Yesterday I mixed equal parts of transmission fluid and acetone to make a small batch of the penetrating oil that was recently discussed on the list. The two did not mix. I shook them together and got a foamy looking mess in the bottle, but after a few minutes they separated again. I thought that this must be just another fairy tale that someone had dreamed up and passed on to us ignorant porch denizens. I left the container sitting on the bench and went in for the evening. Next morning I was astounded to see that the two ingredients had mixed by themselves overnight. I have no idea why it would take so long. Now I had to retract all those nasty thoughts I had about those who reported this little wonder. I tried the mix on some rusty nuts, and it seems to work well. Haven't actually compared it to the well known canned products yet though. I hope it works better, because I'd like to toss the half dozen or so expensive ($15 or thereabouts) cans I have purchased in the past and really never used much because they don't really work very well. Jim Thompson, the old Millrat in Riverside, CA. ------- Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2010 10:10:03 -0500 From: CheekyGeek Subject: Re: [OldTools] Home brew penetrating oil Regarding home-made penetrating fluid, here is a GREAT (and educational) thread: http://weldingweb.com/showthread.php?t=31170 Note that the ATF should be Dextron. Another ingredient to a good penetrating fluid is apparently Oil of Wintergreen = Methyl Salicylate. Wintergreen Oil's properties mentioned previously on the Porch: Rusty Old Screws... http://swingleydev.com/archive/get.php?message_id=185580&submit_th read=1#message Unsticking Rusted Parts: http://swingleydev.com/archive/get.php?message_id=171689&submit_th read=1#message Useful tip re: freeing stuck, rusty parts: http://swingleydev.com/archive/get.php?message_id=196841&submit_th read=1#message See also Ed's Red: http://www.globalsoftware-inc.com/coolerman/fj40/ed'sred.htm Darren Addy Kearney, NE ------- NOTE TO FILE: Do you need a Gits type ball oiler? (This is a tube with a spring loaded ball to keep out debris; the ball is depressed while oil is being introduced, and springs closed when finished.) L. Garlinghouse in the atlas_craftsman group wrote about his method of making his own oilers. See the article "Gits type Ball Oiler Project" Date: Thu Sep 9, 2010 in the Projects in Metal text file here. ------- Re: What type of grease? [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: "L. Garlinghouse" lhghousex~xxsuddenlink.net Date: Tue Oct 19, 2010 7:53 am ((PDT)) bob_higdon on October 19, 2010 wrote: > I just recently bought a Craftsman 12" lathe. The gears all look to be in great shape, but it looks as though someone cleaned all the grease off them. I bought a manual on eBay and it mentions putting a certain type of grease on the gears, but I don't know if that grease is even out there anymore. This is my first lathe, but it seems like there should be some kind of grease on the gears. Can anyone suggest a good, readily available grease for me? Thanks, Bob < Go into our archives [NOTE TO FILE: OR EARLIER IN THIS TEXT FILE] and there is more on this than anyone would want to know. However being a kindly soul and feeling your need for a quick answer I'll give you mine [which is NOT 100% in line with some very good info within the archives]. Little Known Fact [LKF]: Anything above 50 wt. is "grease" even tho it is not a solid at room temperature, so 90wt gear grease is a very thick liquid at 70F. Someone pointed out that any lubricant is better than no lubricant, and so 30wt motor oil would be OK, but very messy as it will throw off all over everything. What I do: I mix STP about 50/50 with 30wt motor oil and it becomes just thick enough not to be thrown off, yet liquid enough that it quickly travels around the gear train. Or go to your AutoZone or NAPA dealer and play with their counter toy extolling the virtues of Amsoil Oil Treatment. That would work as well [the Amsoil not the toy]. Too thick a lubricant and there can be a noticible drag within the gear train, too little lubrication and there will be lots of clicking because of the backlash. Soooo, just like Goldilocks and the three bears . . . not too thick, not too thin . . . but just riiigggghhhttt . . . Later, L.H. Gearinghouse Arkansas PS Should anyone choose to correct or pick at the above, go ahead ... no pride of authorship nor delusions of total correctness on my part. ------- Re: What type of grease? Posted by: "Bill Stietenroth" k5ztyx~xxjuno.com Date: Tue Oct 19, 2010 8:53 am ((PDT)) I use CRC spray-on lithium grease. It lubricates well and it doesn't sling off onto everything. I don't try to abate the gear noise by using heavy grease because of the mess. I lowered the noise level in the gear train by taking the wobble and slack out of the feed gears by bushing, shimming and machining them to fit their shafts properly and run true. (I have a QCGB so I didn't have to do a whole gear set.) Except for the one sliding gear, they can all be rebushed with oilite bronze bearings and do away with the oversize Zamac holes that let them wobble and clank. It also helps to use shim washers on the side to keep them centered and from walking back and forth on their shaft. My gears don't run silent, but they don't rattle and clank like they are skipping teeth either. I expect to hear whirring gears when this 60 year old machine is working. Bill ------- Re: What type of grease? Posted by: "Scott Henion" shenionx~xxshdesigns.org Date: Tue Oct 19, 2010 9:37 am ((PDT)) I use bar and chain oil for chainsaws. Keeps them quiet, does not fly off and stays clean. $7/gallon. Used lithum grease, lubraplate, chain wax and 140wt gear oil. All were messy and turned to goo after a while. The 30wt and STP looks good too but have not tried it. Check ebay for spindle and way oil, I picked up small bottles of Mobile Velicote and Vactra synthetic spindle and way oils. Works well and you don't have to buy a gallon of it. Scott G. Henion Craftsman 12x36 lathe: http://shdesigns.org/Craftsman12x36 ------- Re: What type of grease? Posted by: "Jon Elson" elsonx~xxpico-systems.com Date: Tue Oct 19, 2010 9:56 am ((PDT)) Any "open gear lube" will work fine. You should be able to find this at an auto parts store. Lubriplate makes one under that description. Jon ------- Re: What type of grease? Posted by: "Glenn N" sleykinx~xxcharter.net Date: Tue Oct 19, 2010 11:08 am ((PDT)) I also use the lubriplate open gear lube on my gears. It is black and potentially a mess but I have not had any issues with it. Just be sure to stay away from motorcycle chain lube. That stuff turns to tar in short order. ------- Vegetable based cutting fluid? [taigtools] Posted by: "Lewis hein" lheinx~xxvcn.com Date: Thu Oct 21, 2010 4:58 pm ((PDT)) Hi all: I'm wondering if there is a vegetable-based cutting fluid out there that does a good job on mild steel and will work on a Taig? I'm tired of using motor oil. If it gets hot it stinks to high heaven and my other option, liquid lecithin, is awfully gummy stuff. It tends to make a little glob on the the edge of the workpiece which then goes flying before the toolbit gets to it. Besides, it won't work very well for flood cooling. It is much too viscous. I've heard of olive oil being used for cutting fluid but I'm not sure how well it works. Thanks Lewis Hein ------- Re: Vegetable based cutting fluid? Posted by: "Will Schmit" anchornmx~xxyahoo.com Date: Thu Oct 21, 2010 5:09 pm ((PDT)) I cut a lot of wax, and I swear by soy oil. I buy it in bulk, and I buy it at the grocery store as a spray cooking oil. It isn't the best for metals, but I keep it right next to the mill, and spray stuff all the time. What I like about it -- take the part in the kitchen, and scrub it with a dish brush and dish soap, (under water) and it is sparkling clean. ------- Re: Vegetable based cutting fluid? Posted by: "Ken Cline" clinex~xxfrii.com Date: Thu Oct 21, 2010 5:23 pm ((PDT)) On 21 Oct 2010, Will Schmit wrote: > I swear by soy oil. Mineral oil is another option, though I don't know if drugstore mineral is close enough to that used in cutting oil to be useful. Mineral oil is nontoxic, odor-free, and doesn't go rancid. Commercial cutting oils mix animal or vegetable oil to the mineral oil base to improve wetting and other properties. Camelia oil (from the flowering plant) is a traditional japanese woodworking lubricant, though I don't know if it would be useful for cutting metal. ------- Re: Vegetable based cutting fluid? Posted by: "David Underwood" dave.underwoodx~xxsympatico.ca Date: Thu Oct 21, 2010 8:13 pm ((PDT)) Indeed there is. I use Hycut ET 150 tapping oil. It's an excellent product, much safer to use than the typical cutting fluids. No need to worry about flushing it away, either, as it's a good lubricant. Made in Germany and distributed in North America by Oemeta North America, Inc. See http://web.oemeta.com/html/1/221/hycut.html Dave ------- Re: Vegetable based cutting fluid? Posted by: "Rudy Munguia" rudymunguiax~xxrocketmail.com Date: Fri Oct 22, 2010 9:32 am ((PDT)) I have used soy oil off and on for aluminum and plastics. For hardened or tool steels I have TapMagic xtra-thick; it works wonders. ------- Re: Vegetable based cutting fluid? Posted by: "Tony Jeffree" tonyx~xxjeffree.co.uk Date: Fri Oct 22, 2010 9:54 am ((PDT)) I wonder if it is regular olive oil they use or extra-virgin? ;-) Seriously...my only concern with using vegetable oils would be that the residue may well deteriorate over time & become rancid - leading to a smelly workshop. The soluble cutting oils are bad enough for that. Regards, Tony ------- Re: Vegetable based cutting fluid? Posted by: "Dean" deanofidx~xxyahoo.com Date: Fri Oct 22, 2010 5:11 pm ((PDT)) I don't understand why you would use motor oil in the first place. It is made to go inside engines, not for cutting metal. Get some oil that is actually called cutting oil. Tap Magic, Tap Matic, Re-Lion, whatever. There are hundreds of them. Olive oil works after a fashion. I've tried it out of curiosity. It still smokes if you get your tool hot, and it smells like... burnt olive oil. Dean ------- Re: Vegetable based cutting fluid? Posted by: "frxdyx~xxaol.com" Date: Sat Oct 23, 2010 4:03 am ((PDT)) > why you would use motor oil? Dean makes a good point. I'm going to agree and add on. I used to make that mistake and understand. It's an easy one to make. You look at "real cutting oil" and when you see it's five to ten dollars a quart, you reach for that partial quart of lawn mower oil. I finally gave myself a birthday present this year and bought some Tap Magic. What a difference! It's night & day over motor oil. Now, as for smoking and the burning oil smell, the fact of the matter is that if you're getting smoke you are doing something wrong. No cut should ever produce smoke. You are cutting too fast, using a dull tool, using the wrong tool for what you are cutting, or not using enough oil. The simple fact is where there's smoke, there's a tool being ruined. I've done it, and still do it, but speed kills! Just this week I ruined a couple of drills in a row because I was in a hurry & was too lazy to set up properly. ------- Re: Vegetable based cutting fluid? Posted by: "Dean" deanofidx~xxyahoo.com Date: Sat Oct 23, 2010 3:55 pm ((PDT)) > The simple fact is where there's smoke, there's a tool being ruined. Well, I wouldn't go that far. Some oils smoke at only a few hundred degrees, and making chips that are, say 300 F is not unusual, nor does it mean you are hurting your tooling. If you are still using forged carbon tools, you may have problems, but if using HSS, you won't have to worry about heat ruining the tool until things start to turn blue. I worked in productions shops where sizzling hot chips were the norm for certain metals on some jobs. We didn't have tool problems until the tool itself started getting that hot. If the oil is burning off, it's doing part of the job of carrying away heat. If you're smokin' chips on a Taig, but the chips aren't turning yellowish-blue (for steel), you probably aren't to the point of doing the tool any damage. You may be pushing the machine a bit, though. Dean ------- Re: Vegetable based cutting fluid? Posted by: "Steve Blackmore" stevex~xxpilotltd.net Date: Sun Oct 24, 2010 5:47 am ((PDT)) Correct. Hot chips,swarf and coolant carry the heat away from the job and tool. For production work I was taught that if the chips weren't blue, you weren't taking a proper cut and wasting time . Difficult to do though with something like a Taig. As for burning drills out, 1 - wrong feed and speed (leads to 2) 2 - drill was blunt 3 - wrong type of drill for job. Coolant not reaching drill point is another, more of a consideration in deep drilling in commercial applications. An extreme example, one of my contacts drills 14mm holes, 140mm deep in cast steel. They feed at 80m/min at 2000 rpm, through drill coolant at 80bar! Tool life is 30 minutes. Non commercial users seem to think drills last for ever, they don't. They are consumables. If you can sharpen them correctly, obviously, they last longer ;) Steve Blackmore ------- Re: Vegetable based cutting fluid? Posted by: "Nicholas Carter and Felice Luftschein" felicex~xxcasco.net Date: Sat Oct 23, 2010 9:06 am ((PDT)) I use Cool Tool II, which I believe is vegetable based. MSC, etc carry it. See our homepage at www.cartertools.com/nfhome.html ------- Re: Vegetable based cutting fluid? Posted by: "Rick Reyes" aztaigx~xxyahoo.com Date: Sat Oct 23, 2010 1:55 pm ((PDT)) Don't forget about coconut oil, expensive but I like using it for steel. Rick ------- Re: Boundary lubrication [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: "Bruce Freeman" freemab222x~xxgmail.com Date: Fri Nov 12, 2010 5:39 pm ((PST)) > Thanks for the input. I ended up mixing Molybdenum Disulfide with 10-30 > Synthetic motor oil (wal-mart) with good results. My dies are not heat > treated, however I keep them well polished Can you buy molybdenum disulfide as a dry ingredient (aside from at a chemical supply house? If so, where? I've never come across it, and would be interested. My understanding is that it makes a grease much more heat-tolerant, and that the dry "moly" itself is "greasy" and can be used as lubrication in the same way dry graphite can be used. On Wed, Nov 10, 2010 at 1:34 PM, lar wrote: Bruce NJ ------- Re: Boundary lubrication Posted by: "Michael Fagan" woodworker88x~xxgmail.com Date: Fri Nov 12, 2010 6:06 pm ((PST)) You can buy it as a dry powder. It is often used for lubricating high pressure systems such as deep drawing dies. The most common is Molykote Z powder: http://www3.dowcorning.com/applications/search/prod ucts/details.aspx?prod=01006002&type=PROD I should mention it's available from many industrial suppliers such as McMaster Carr. ------- Re: Boundary lubrication Posted by: "Leon Robinson" leon-robinsonx~xxsbcglobal.net Date: Fri Nov 12, 2010 6:30 pm ((PST)) As a liquid look for Dri Slide, use like Graphite, the liquid evaporates in a few minutes leaving the molybdenum disulfide. I use it on the lock on my gate, exposed to the weather, only have to do it once or twice a year; if you get it on your fingers, you just have to wait a few days for it to wear off. Leon K5JLR ------- Help confirming I understand correct method of oiling [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: "Dave Beckstrom" dbeckx~xxatving.com Date: Sat Jan 1, 2011 12:09 pm ((PST)) Hi Guys, Happy New Year to everyone! So my oils from Enco have arrived. I purchased Mobile Vactra #2 way oil, Mobile DTE 24 and Mobile DTE Heavy/Medium. A gallon of each. I haven't bought anything yet for the open gears. I'm reviewing the 12-inch Lubrication chart. The "Headstock and Back Gears" diagram shows oil cups "A" on each end of the spindle shaft. Those two oil cups would be the only location where I would use the DTE 24 (light spindle oil) correct? Underneath the chuck is a plug that needs to be removed for oiling. I've removed the plug and there is a fitting with a ball check valve in the end of it. That seems to be the same type of oil fitting that is directly above the half nut lever on the carriage. I've never encountered these ball check valves before. How does one oil these? Do you use the old style oil can with a thumb pump and place the end of the tube against the ball fitting and squirt or is there some kind of special needle you need on the end of an oiler that you insert? I'm guessing the former and not the latter but I hate to assume anything. The actual gears themselves...I'm talking the teeth on the gears...they would get lubricated with some kind of grease designed for open-faced gears, correct? I've read of some people using chainsaw bar oil, I read something about a spray-on grease (it may have been a CRC lithium), etc. Basically it needs to be something that doesn't sling off, correct? Regarding the Way oil -- that is only applied to flat surfaces, correct? In other words, you squirt or wipe it on to to the flat surface of the bed (the ways)? I'm assuming it would also be used on the flats of the cross-feed on the carriage? This way oil would never be put into any kind of oil cup or on anything threaded, right? It's just put on the flats where the oil needs to stick? So I would use the DTE Heavy/Medium (circulating oil) in all of the oil cups on the machine, for oiling any bearings, for oiling the lead screw and anything threaded, etc? I apologize for all of the questions. I'm a bit of a perfectionist (and over-think most things, too) and mainly want to make sure I'm under- standing the proper procedure. These manuals can be a bit ambiguous to someone who is just learning and has no machining background. I went to harbor freight to buy 3 of the old style oil cans with the thumb pump and they don't stock them any more. They had them listed on the web site for around $2.50 each but specified in-store purchase only. Everyone else around here is about $9 a can. Didn't want to spend $27 on oil cans. A friend of mine uses old elmer glue bottles. What do you guys like to use? ------- Re: Help confirming I understand correct method of oiling Posted by: "Scott Henion" shenionx~xxshdesigns.org Date: Sat Jan 1, 2011 12:30 pm ((PST)) I use the spindle oil on rotating parts and way oil on most else. If it spins, spindle oil, if it slides, way oil ;) I have a pump type oil can that has a tip that just fits in were the ball oilers are. I filed a slight notch in the end to allow oil to flow when pressed up against the ball. I use bar and chain oil on the gears. I used to use way oil on the busings and Lubriplate on the gears. Have tried auto "gear oil", lithium grease, brake lube and chain wax. Anything thick attracted chips and I always saw the oil turn black with what is probably oxidized aluminum wearing from the gears. The bar/chain oil is quite thin but works well and the gears stay clean. Used to be a real pain to change gears as you get the thick oils all over you. The bar oil wipes off. Does not fly off like I expected. I would not use any kind of grease, yes the gears get quiet but dirt and chips stick to it. If you do any boring, the chips will work out the back of the spindle. Way oil I put on the flat surfaces, don't forget the underside of the ways. I soak a paper towel and run the bottom side. Made a world of difference as I bet it was never oiled; just got the crap dripping down over the edges. The carriage has felt wipers. There is an oil hole on the top of each. I always put some way oil there but my felts are old and don't soak up much. I try to follow the oiling schedule but usually just a few drops in the cups when I start and oil some of the rest. Once a month I oil everything. Don't forget the plug in the main spindle pulley. I think the previous owner never oiled it as the pulley had slop and lots of drag. I picked up small bottles of Mobil way and spindle oil off ebay as I can't afford gallons. The bar and chain oil was $7 for a gallon of decent stuff. Oiling has been discussed ad nausium, you can search the archives. Really, just about anything will do these days. I used 30wt non-detergent oil for a while. Scott G. Henion Craftsman 12x36 lathe: http://shdesigns.org/Craftsman12x36 ------- Re: Help confirming I understand correct method of oiling Posted by: "Starlight Tool Services Ltd" starlight_toolsx~xxtelus.net Date: Sat Jan 1, 2011 3:04 pm ((PST)) What I find works great for getting the oil into ball oilers is to cut a short length of clear rubber or plastic tubing that will just press fit over the tip of the oiler and will stick past the tip by at least 1/8 inch. Make sure the area around the ball oiler is clear, then press the tube flat against the surrounding surface of the oiler. Now when you pump the oiler, the oil will pressurize in the rubber tube and be forced past the ball. MAKE SURE IT WAS CLEAN AS SO WILL ANY JUNK! With this method, I can see the oil seep out from under the ways, etc. so that I know for sure the oil is getting where it needs to be. This was a neat little trick I picked up many moons ago on one of the yahoo groups and like you figured I would try it. The hydraulic pressure opened the ball oiler quickly and cleanly without much fiddling around. Hydraulic pressure forced the oil in and since then I have always known that the oil was getting to where it was really needed. Biggest thing is that the tubing needs to be just like the little bears porridge, not too hard like pappa bear with his long sharp teeth and not too soft like grampa bear with no teeth, but just right that it forms a tight seal. Walter ------- Re: Help confirming I understand correct method of oiling Posted by: "Warren D." warrengrantx~xxyahoo.com Date: Sat Jan 1, 2011 4:06 pm ((PST)) A little trick if you are threading inside is to put a little piece of paper in the spindle to stop chips from working out the back. I prefer paper over cloth in case something goes wrong, the paper will disintegrate easier. ------- Re: Help confirming I understand correct method of oiling Posted by: "Scott Henion" shenionx~xxshdesigns.org Date: Sat Jan 1, 2011 4:15 pm ((PST)) Actually, I hold an air gun over the back of the spindle. Helps clear the chips out of the bore; otherwise they can pile up in the work and give a a lousy finish especially when working on aluminum. I plan on making something that mounts on the side cover with an air fitting. Scott G. Henion http://shdesigns.org/Craftsman12x36 ------- Re: Help confirming I understand correct method of oiling Posted by: "carvel webb" carvelwx~xxabsamail.co.za Date: Sun Jan 2, 2011 12:58 am ((PST)) Or a (couple of ) corks :) Rgds, Carvel ------- Re: Help confirming I understand correct method of oiling Posted by: "Lawrence Sciortino" las1940x~xxcomcast.net Date: Sun Jan 2, 2011 10:19 am ((PST)) re. the comment about chips working their way through the spindle bore and into the gear train: A wine cork (or any other plug that will fit) pushed into the left end of the spindle bore will stop that nasty business from happening. When the plug is removed for collet pulling, etc, a vacuuming of the spindle bore will clean out any accumulation. Almost goes without saying, but as with some other very simple things, this little fix eluded me until I read it somewhere several years ago -- perhaps on this group. Larry ------- 3in1 v.s turbine oil v.s. other [sherline] Posted by: "Christopher E. Brown" cbrownx~xxwoods.net Date: Sun Mar 6, 2011 10:53 pm ((PST)) As a kid, 3in1 was the always present can around the house/shop. Everyone knew it would varnish a little if left sitting for years, but this was fairly minor. As explained to me: 3in1 was simply light machine oil/sewing machine oil with an extra anti-ox and surfacant package. "sewing machine oil" was simply a high quality nearly clean light machine oil, originally mineral oil, but later on often synthetic, often being re-packaged turbine oil. Turbine oil being a very high grade light weight high purity oil, usually synthetic these days. What happened with 3in1? Sometime after they quit producing the metal cans it seems to have become a varnish monster. This all comes up because of the mention of using 3in1 in the sherline manuals. 15 years ago, I did, but the new/current 3in1 is evil. I just finished stripping and cleaning the new 4400 lathe. Since the feedscrews are fairly well covered, both protected from chips and hard to oil I went ahead and re-lubed with the same superlube grease the factory uses. For the ways, grease is not really an option, too sticky. Same with the mill (got it with the oiler option anyway). My first thought is turbine oil, have been using it as a general light machine oil and have a large supply on hand. It does seem a little thin for this use, but is the same viscosity as the suggested 3in1. Other thoughts being a non detergent/no additives synthetic 20w or 30w oil, or a way oil. Thoughts? What are you all using? ------- Re: 3in1 v.s turbine oil v.s. other Posted by: "a3sigma" dcclark111x~xxcomcast.net Date: Mon Mar 7, 2011 4:18 am ((PST)) Consider Mobile way oil. See McMaster: http://www.mcmaster.com/#way-oil/=bbtxmj Or Mobile One synthetic oil. David Clark in Southern Maryland, USA ------- Re: 3in1 v.s turbine oil v.s. other Posted by: "DA Dossin" danatlx~xxyahoo.com Date: Mon Mar 7, 2011 4:54 am ((PST)) Or consider 2010 TEP oil. The US Navy has a rather large stockpile of this. I think it comes in 55 gallon drums unless you have a "friend" in the ship yard. LOL DanD. ------- Re: 3in1 v.s turbine oil v.s. other Posted by: "markotime" markotimex~xxshaw.ca Date: Mon Mar 7, 2011 6:40 am ((PST)) Many clock repairers use Slik 50 on mainsprings with good results. Has some PTFE, perhaps, some mix it with synthetic (Mobil 1). The loads Thinner is better in terms of avoiding "sticks like peas to the knife", honey-consistency way oils, which grab chips. On small machines like the Sherline, loading is relatively light. The Slik tends to spread well, which helps it find its way into all the small gaps easily. ------- Re: A2Z Precision Leadscrew Upgrade [SherlineCNC] Posted by: "timgoldstein" timgx~xxktmarketing.com Date: Tue Jul 26, 2011 10:56 am ((PDT)) For those of you interested in the oil we use and recommend, here are the details. For use on the Kerk screws and nuts no lubricant is the recommendation from the Kerk engineers. The nut is self lubricating and the screws are coated with KerKote Teflon resin. Putting on a lubricant will only encourage chips to stick to the screws and get embedded in the resin nuts. Not good. The screw system will not be harmed if some lube gets on it, but the official recommendation is run it dry. For the dovetail ways we recommend #2 way oil. Way oil is designed specifically for this purpose. It does not collect and chips like using grease in spite of Sherline's recommendation for Super lube. Their addition of oiler seems to indicate that grease is not all that good a solution. It really does not matter what brand way lube you use. Mobile makes their Vactra product line and their #2 will work just as well. We use and sell the Hangsterfer brand as it is a low sulfer product and matches the coolant system we use in our Haas machines. The #2 way lube we sell is out of the same bucket as what we use to lube our machines. If you are looking for a larger quantity, you can buy a #2 way oil of some brand from any machine tool supply dealer. Most larger cities will have a supplier or you can order online from someone like Travers. The most important thing when using way lube is to use enough and keep the ways wet with oil. You want the ways floating on an oil film, not having the parts contacting. Just like the pain bearings on the crankshaft of your car, oil film is good, part to part contact is real bad. Tim Goldstein A2Z Corp 3955 S Mariposa St Englewood CO 80110 720 385-2118 Phone www.a2zcorp.us/store ------- Re: A2Z Precision Leadscrew Upgrade Posted by: "Andy M" trumpy81x~xxoptusnet.com.au Date: Wed Jul 27, 2011 6:52 pm ((PDT)) GDay All. Thanks Tim. That makes perfect sense, I can't wait 'till they arrive and I can start playing with them ;) They should be here any day now! I hope ... lol I spoke to my friend at Castrol and he recommended Castrol Tribol 1066 Way Oil but he is going to talk to one of the engineers to see if there is something even better suited for the aluminium dovetails on the Sherline. Regards Andy M ------- newbe [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: "Colin Rigsby" swpipesx~xxatt.net Date: Mon Aug 29, 2011 7:16 pm ((PDT)) Hello, I am new to the group and just acquired a "new" old Atlas 70's era 6" lathe. I am a smoking pipe maker and will be using it for making stems and inserts. Silly newbe question: What oil/lube should I be using with this lathe? Brand and type/weight information would be appreciated. Thanks, Colin Rigsby www.shurewoodbriarpipes.com ------- Re: newbe Posted by: "Lance Eggleston" wheezer606x~xxverizon.net Date: Mon Aug 29, 2011 8:32 pm ((PDT)) Either go on eBay and buy the bottles of spindle and way oil from the guy who sells it or use non-detergent 30 wt engine oil. The key is to oil, clean and oil. You can't have the Atlas too well lubed. lance ------- Re: newbe Posted by: "Doc" n8as1x~xxaol.com Date: Tue Aug 30, 2011 10:58 am ((PDT)) > or use non-detergent 30 wt engine oil. tractor supply has non detergent oil...also dollar general stores....i keep a gallon of 30 wt & 10 wt ....use 20 wt mix on my 6x18 solid bearings & all else on it, 10 wt on timkens, 30 wt on 14 in solid bearing lathes & solid bearing mills & shapers; i put pans under, since they have some wear ... best wishes docn8as ------- Re: newbe Posted by: "Clem Wixted" cwixtedx~xxgmail.com Date: Tue Aug 30, 2011 11:15 am ((PDT)) DOC: What does the 20 wt mix consist of? Clem ------- Re: newbe Posted by: "Doc" n8as1x~xxaol.com Date: Tue Aug 30, 2011 11:32 am ((PDT)) 30 wt /10 wt ...1/1 ....that may or MAY NOT technically end up as 20 wt, but "macht nichts", that is still what i use .....(20wt non deterg is not seen around here very often )...i ran out of my vactra #2 way oil, & on the lite atlas /crftsmn,(6 & !2), i cant personally see much difference, may be a bit better on the 14 & 15 in lathes.. one other thing. STP (the REALLY gooey stuff, is a decent substitute for the lead lube used to be, on dead centers....BUT my main use is just a tad on oiled change gear /back gear trains & they get INSTANTLY quiet & stay that way for awhile..not much use for GREASE on OPEN gear trains, i am still on same can of STP 50+ years later, but near empty ....(stay out of the way when you have oiled the above, especially chucks, or you can get "striped"....) best wishes docn8as ------- Re: newbe Posted by: "Clem Wixted" cwixtedx~xxgmail.com Date: Tue Aug 30, 2011 11:54 am ((PDT)) DOC, I remember reading your advice about STP some time ago and when I put a dab on the change gears on my 12" it quieted right down. Thanks for all of the education you have provided me over the years by your posts. Clem ------- Re: newbe Posted by: "jo barden" jobarden422x~xxmsn.com Date: Tue Aug 30, 2011 11:34 am ((PDT)) Older style automotive engine oil, must admit I use this as it is cheap and lubricates. It also has some shear resisting properties but detergent not needed. JonG6UWK ------- Re: newbe Posted by: "cuttysark71" cuttysark71x~xxyahoo.com Date: Thu Sep 1, 2011 5:29 am ((PDT)) A word of caution; steer clear of detergent oils. I used to use ordinary 10W30 motor oil on non-running surfaces like the mill table, just for protection against rusting. In the winter (in western NY state) I heat my shop with a salamander type kerosene heater, 150,000 BUT. It blows a lot of moisture into the air. I noticed that things started to rust a little anyway but always caught it early and cleaned and re-oiled the surfaces. Then one day when it was unusually warm for the time of year, I opened the overhead door and soon had condensation on things. The motor oiled surfaces had that milky look, like wheel bearings exposed to water. Researching is, this is what I found out. The detergent oils have additives that attract moisture when the engine is cold and hang on to it. When the engine is running and warms up, the oil additives release their hold on the water and it engine heat causes it to vaporize and be expelled from the engine via the crankcase ventilator line. On my machines, the water just stayed bound to the oil and started the rusting process. I switched to straight 30 weight non-detergent oil and the problem was solved. Like most of the members here, I use Vactra on the machine ways, #2 on the Atlas lathe, and #4 on the mill and shaper, and the 10/30 weight 50/50 mix (non-detergent) for the timken bearing spindle on the Atlas. ------- lube [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: "rob macdonald" robbiemac947x~xxsbcglobal.net Date: Wed Aug 31, 2011 6:46 am ((PDT)) Hello Doc, I was reading the thread about gear lube. I've tried different things (usually what was handy). As one reader said anything is better than nothing. STP is great, but, I had a bottle of Lucas fifth wheel lube at hand, and it is great. Thick like STP, moly for EP, and the bottle has a tip that you cut to your taste. Pretty handy stuff, indeed! Robbie in CT ------- Re: lube Posted by: "Doc" n8as1x~xxaol.com Date: Wed Aug 31, 2011 2:05 pm ((PDT)) Rob ...well, now we can add one more to the "approved" list. (that's approved by thee & me)..the current welcome freedom of information is a far cry from when i went into henry vogt machine shop one summer65 yrs ago ....trade secrets prevailed..... best wishes doc ------- Lubricants? [taigtools] Posted by: "Paul J. Ste. Marie" taigx~xxste-marie.org Date: Tue Sep 27, 2011 6:13 pm ((PDT)) What have you had the best luck with for lubricants on the spindle, ways, and screws? Enco has Mobil way and spindle oil--is the way oil good for the screws, or is some form of grease preferable? Sherline is recommending a synthetic grease containing Telfon particles. I also have some vises that will need the same--I assume whatever is good for the ways and screws on the mill will also be good for the vises. ------- Re: Lubricants? Posted by: "Stan Stocker" skstockerx~xxcomcast.net Date: Wed Sep 28, 2011 5:43 am ((PDT)) On 09/28/2011 12:21 AM, Dean wrote: > Paul, the spindles on Taig machines are sealed. No oil needed, and no place to oil them even if you wanted to. For ways and screws, way oil is the best you can do. It's made specifically for ways. In every machine shop I ever worked in, we never put grease on any kind of lead screw. It holds swarf and other things you don't want on the screw and nut. Use way oil on screws as well as ways. It should be fine for your vises, too. < Hello Paul, Dean, and group, Unlike Dean I use 10 weight non detergent motor oil on the screws. I don't like way oil on screws as it has some additives to make it sticky and have seen it hold metal dust and other such crud. Fresh oil rinses off old oil, but way oil tends to adhere. It's supposed to of course, but it's not recommended for use on screws on any of the larger machines. The larger machines typically call out a 30wt oil for lead screws, but that just seems a tad heavy for the smaller screw used on the cross slide of the Taig. Non detergent oil is available at many auto stores and tractor and farm supply outfits. In quart bottles at the auto parts store it will be labeled "ND". I'm not even sure that in a total loss system like the Taig - meaning no oil reserve, just squirt it on, watch it drip off - that the ND matters. On larger oil filled headstock / gear train machines it matters as regular motor oil will keep crud in suspension expecting to pass through a filter. In those machines, you need the ND oils so the crap can settle out of the oil bath to the bottom of the sump for cleaning out during regular service rather than churning through the gears while held in suspension. Flip side of all this is that Dean and I have both done a heck of a lot of small parts making over the years, and doing what has worked for either of us beats the heck out of using no lube at all :-) Just think how boring it would be if we all marched to the same tune. Best to all, Stan ------- Re: Lubricants? Posted by: "Dean" deanofidx~xxyahoo.com Date: Wed Sep 28, 2011 4:32 pm ((PDT)) Stan's recommendation for NON-detergent motor oil is fine too, IMO. It is what Taig used to say to use. If you're getting way oil anyway, it is perfectly good for the screws, too. In one shop where I worked, two of the Bridgys had automatic oilers for the ways and screws. The oiler pump reservoir was labeled "way oil", and when you pumped the oiler, it automatically pumped that oil to all the ways and screws. Apparently, Bridgeport wanted way oil on their screws. I'm not saying Stan is wrong. We do things differently and probably get the same stuff done. Dean ------- Re: Lubricants? Posted by: "Ken Cline" clinex~xxfrii.com Date: Wed Sep 28, 2011 8:45 pm ((PDT)) I use way oil. I was given a bunch when I bought my mill and haven't had any need to try an alternative. That said, here [http://yarchive.net/metal/way_oil.html] is a strong argument against way oil for mills like ours. In summary, way oil is claimed to be too sticky and attractive to dirt for use on mills like ours, and should be reserved for mills with way wipers, oil filters and pumps. ------- Re: Lubricants? Posted by: "Dean" deanofidx~xxyahoo.com Date: Wed Sep 28, 2011 10:35 pm ((PDT)) The fellow did have quite a rant/fit going. I'm sure he worked in a number of machine shops, like some of us here have. Every experienced person has an opinion. Some insist on theirs, or use horror stories to convince others. I'll still trust the things I learned in my own machine shop experiences, and from the old heads who taught me. We had some 40 year old manual machines running, still holding proper tolerances, and still using way oil. For Paul, from the original post, I hope that link doesn't scare him off using way oil. If you have some, it's good. If you don't have it, the motor oil Stan mentioned is just fine, as is any good machine oil, light turbine oil, or even hydraulic fluid. Dean ------- Re: Lubricants? Posted by: "Paul J. Ste. Marie" taigx~xxste-marie.org Date: Thu Sep 29, 2011 12:45 am ((PDT)) Well, that gallon jug of Vactra on sale at Enco is seeming less attractive (not to mention that it's probably three or four lifetime supplies). Interesting comments there about soluble cutting oil, too. I've seen a fair number of comments about mist cooling setups using water-based fluids, but the Taig came with a big scary note about never, ever letting anything water-based near it. ------- Re: Lubricants? Posted by: "Edward Thomas" dsproductsx~xxcox.net Date: Wed Oct 5, 2011 7:45 am ((PDT)) When I was down at the Taig shop (where they make the mills) recently to have my mill rebuilt, they recommended and were using Mobil 1 synthetic oil on the ways and screws. Ed ------- Headstock Gear Lubricant? [atlas618lathe] Posted by: "xlpilot" hcapperx~xxverizon.net Date: Thu Oct 27, 2011 10:59 am ((PDT)) I'm putting my Atlas 6 inch Mark II back together after disassembling and cleaning everything. The manual says to use a Cling Type Outre Gear lubricant on the headstock gears. Can anyone suggest a good lubricant? It would be nice to find something locally. I have an MSC Industrial Supply facility nearby, and they show a "Gear Shield Extra Heavy Spray" that is described as "Developed for easy application to open gears. A tough tacky grease excellent for fifth wheel applications" See: http://www1.mscdirect.com/cgi/NNPDFF?PMPAGE=2665&PMITEM=31733090&PMCTLG=00 Comments appreciated. Harry in Harrisburg ------- Re: Headstock Gear Lubricant? Posted by: "azbruno" azbrunox~xxyahoo.com Date: Thu Oct 27, 2011 1:16 pm ((PDT)) I use Lubriplate Extra Heavy Gear Shield for headstock and change gears. Rather than the spray can, I got a tube and use a caulking gun. The number of the item is L0152-000. One tube is all you'll ever need... costs about $7.50. You should be able to find it locally. Bruno ------- Re: Headstock Gear Lubricant? Posted by: "xlpilot" hcapperx~xxverizon.net Date: Thu Oct 27, 2011 5:49 pm ((PDT)) Thanks, Bruno: MSC has it in tubes, but only in large quantity. I checked Granigers, and QAuto Store Pep Boys without success. I will keep looking, but can always head out to MSC and get the spray. It is apparently the same stuff. ------- Re: Headstock Gear Lubricant? Posted by: "EdwinB" n5kzwx~xxarrl.net Date: Fri Oct 28, 2011 8:49 am ((PDT)) Check your local bicycle store for dry lubricant spray. It won't fling off, and it doesn't collect swarf. Regards, Ed ------- headstock lube Posted by: "rob macdonald" robbiemac947x~xxsbcglobal.net Date: Sat Oct 29, 2011 7:07 am ((PDT)) Hi All, I have a TH42 with a qc gearbox. When the gear train gets a little noisy, I use Lucas fifth wheel lube in VERY small quantities. It's almost like STP with moly-be-damn added. Currently working on a 618 change gear that will use the same. The stuff really works, relatively cheap, and you only use a few drops. It spreads and if you use too much, you'll be cleaning. Robbie in CT ------- NOTE TO FILE: The next conversation about suitable lubricants for a lathe (or any machinery for that matter) always brings a huge response. Yes we have had earlier conversations recorded in this file, but there are always some new wrinkles or tips that educate us a bit more. Enjoy. ------- Re: Best way to clean (AND LUBE) a used lathe [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: "rburkheimer" burkheimerx~xxgmail.com Date: Tue Dec 27, 2011 12:23 pm ((PST)) Rick Maschek wrote: > As for "Then follow with a spray oil that is more of a lubricant, to prevent rust." I just read on some website to use Mobile 1 synthetic oil for oiling things up on a lathe and mill, anyone use that? < Rick, I've done exactly that for quite a while. I've also used ATF, because I seem to have a lot of odd quarts of ATF laying around. Stuff is like rabbits... But as for using any motor oil, it was pointed out recently that motor oil has additives in it designed to emulsify water, so it can carry it safely until it gets hot enough to boil off. Now I'm thinking maybe I don't want a lubricant laying on my machined surfaces that is actively LOOKING to attract water. So I bought some way oil for the sliding surfaces, and I still use synthetic ATF until I can pick up some proper spindle oil. ------- Re: Best way to clean (AND LUBE) a used lathe Posted by: "Doc" n8as1x~xxaol.com docn8as Date: Tue Dec 27, 2011 1:49 pm ((PST)) nondetergent oil does not hold water in emulsion ...30 wt available at TSC, dollar general, & others, sometimes 10 WT ...& mixed, that will get you 20 if wanted ... cheaper as well. was way oil around when these machines were designed? .... i have a jug of it & if not handy, use 30 wt non det......., wiping off after use & reoiling, i see no need for whatever "stick to" is there & TRUTHfully can see no difference on the crftsmn 6 & 12......havent run tests on 14 in reed & 2000 # monarch A, but almost sure way oil not around in 1895 & circa 1918... just my thots .. again use what works for you !!!! best wishes docn8as ------- Re: Best way to clean (AND LUBE) a used lathe Posted by: "wa5cabx~xxcs.com" Date: Tue Dec 27, 2011 3:28 pm ((PST)) As most have probably discovered by now, auto parts and hardware stores for whatever reason have quit stocking SAE 20 of any type. They don't even have it in their catalogs anymore. I use Mobil DTE Heavy/Medium Circulating Oil which is SAE 20 non-detergent. $21.48/gal from Enco. Probably available elsewhere, too. I found 3IN1 SAE 20 at Ace and do keep a can of it around for misc. uses on the electronics bench, but if you calculate out the effective cost per gallon you'd probably faint. I don't think there would be anything wrong with mixing decent quality 30 and 10 (if you can find 10) but I don't automatically assume that the mixing ratio would be 50:50 and don't know offhand where to find out. ------- Re: Best way to clean (AND LUBE) a used lathe Posted by: "Kelly Driskell" kelroy64x~xxgmail.com Date: Tue Dec 27, 2011 3:37 pm ((PST)) I use 20 weight compressor oil. ------- Re: Best way to clean (AND LUBE) a used lathe Posted by: "Tom Trebisky" tomx~xxmmto.org Date: Tue Dec 27, 2011 5:22 pm ((PST)) I looked around online and found that I could buy a case of SAE 20 non-detergent oil of the "Accel" brand from Amazon.com -- it was about $23 for the case, which is far more than a lifetime supply. And I ordered something else along with it to qualify for the "free shipping on orders over $25". Showed up about 3 weeks ago (and the shipping charges marked on the box were like $13, so I feel somewhat guilty about the free shipping). I would have preferred to just have bought 2 quarts, but there didn't seem to be an option of that sort open to me. I was going to just use some 10/30 detergent oil I had around, but have heard a number of reasons not to do that and for $20 and change, why not "do it right". ------- Re: Best way to clean (AND LUBE) a used lathe Posted by: "Scott Henion" shenionx~xxshdesigns.org Date: Tue Dec 27, 2011 6:20 pm ((PST)) On 12/27/2011 8:56 PM, A & O Brooks wrote: > I have just noticed this thread and have some questions. > Why is non-detergent oil preferred? > Could you not use a multigrade that is 20W50. My understanding is > that the 20 is the viscosity "cold" and 50 is the viscosity at a high > temperature. i do not mind being corrected. I have seen various > something W20 oils at Walmart lately (here in Georgia). > What was the 'tolerance' on oil viscosity specifications 50 or 60 > years ago? > what was the correct rpm for a 6" atlas/craftsman motor? Multi-grade motor oil is odd. 20W50 has the viscosity of 20wt at normal temps and the viscosity of 50wt at high temp (i.e the viscosity 50wt will have at high temps.) It's also a different scale than machine oil. 30wt is about the same as 20wt machine oil. Detergent oil will absorb water and keep dirt in suspension. Oil has been discussed many times. About any oil will work and many have different preferences. I use synthetic spindle and way oil off ebay.. Scott G. Henion Craftsman 12x36 lathe: http://shdesigns.org/Craftsman12x36 ------- Re: Best way to clean (AND LUBE) a used lathe Posted by: "Rexarino" rexarinox~xxgmail.com Date: Tue Dec 27, 2011 6:03 pm ((PST)) Doc, if I remember my oil chemistry, I think mixing 10 and 30 weight gives... mixed 10 and 30 weight oil, not really 20 weight. Viscosity is related to the length of the hydrocarbon chain, and that hydrocarbon bond isn't broken by simple mixing of various viscosity oils. There really isn't a reason to use anything other than 30 weight, unless you want 10W oil to penetrate into very tiny crevices... Wasn't whale oil the lubricant of choice back at the turn of that century (1899-1901)? Rex ------- Re: Best way to clean (AND LUBE) a used lathe Posted by: "Doc" n8as1x~xxaol.com docn8as Date: Tue Dec 27, 2011 8:20 pm ((PST)) rexarino .... i claim ignorance .... now thinking abt it for the first time, seems logical that left undisturbed, they wud settle in two distinct layers... they may NOT mix, & i have used both singly at times when i ran out of one or the other & the machines seemed happy ....so i apparently have been deceiving myself & my machines are having alternate drinks of two viscosities....or maybe individual drinks. that said my 1937 atlas manual says use SAE 20 .....my 1974 atlas manual says 10 wt .....i have used mixed 10 & 30 wt nondetergent, CALLED it # 20 & used it on my 6x18 babbit lathe & 12x36 crftsmn commercial after 20 wt became scarce.....still have QUIET original bearings in both... last few years, i have used #10 nondetergent in the 12 x36 ....i use 30 wt nondet. on my antique 14 in reed & 14 in Monarch A, & 1920 horizontal mill, solid bearing spoindles ....20 wt runs out too fast .....& i keep pans under the headstocks ..i use 10 wt nondet on my 1920 surface grinder spindle & on leblond 1913 tool & cutter grinder, 20 wt nondet. on bridgeport M head...i use way oil & 30 wt non det. on slide surfaces indescriminately (whatever is near) & cant tell the difference (in MY usage). my thot is, in the intermittant home shop usage, & at the speeds used, these machines are awfully forgiving abt oils just so long as it IS USED. now that i know you remember more chemistry than i, i have used REALLY dirty old engine oil for cutting fluid when parting, sometimes sawing, & it does seem to be effective, but the DIRTIER the better...am i deluding myself or is there some sulfur or other element in WELL used engine oil, that is more effectine than "new mtr oil" ???????? you may enjoy this ....the original manual on my 1939 hand crank international mod A tobacco tractor says "change the oil when you can no longer read the markings on the dip stick"...i did, & it REALLY needs a regular slug of 50 wt now. i stand corrected best wishes docn8as ------- Re: Best way to clean (AND LUBE) a used lathe Posted by: "Doc" n8as1x~xxaol.com docn8as Date: Tue Dec 27, 2011 8:36 pm ((PST)) Rex wrote: > Wasn't whale oil the lubricant of choice back at the turn of that > century (1899-1901)? yes .... i thing sperm oil is also used by clock/watch makers because it doesent leave the hard wax residue that binds up ....like some old micrometers i have bought on ebay; one lufkin 4 in recently was so bound up that i really struggled to get the spindle just to MOVE, & if not much else, my hands are still strong ...was afraid i wud have to go to the vise .......so far 3 in 1 oil is the best i have found for not binding up after time ...the starret oil i have is a bad actor that way ....anyway, after a couple oilings & running in/out, it is almost as smooth as my sherr tumico mics ...it apppears to have been never used. tallow (rendered beef fat) was one of the first CUTTING lubes, (probably because of familiarity & availability because of muzzle loading lubed cloth patched balls) followed by lard oil (pressed out lard fat & 30 wt steam cylinder oil )..when the EPA knocked out the very good commercial lubes, they reverted to vegetable, maybe animal oils ....i still have a large supply of RENDERED lard that i mix w/ 30 wt nondet ..for tapping & finish cutting & tough material ....neighbor butchered a hog several years ago & I cleaned out the kettle. ------- Re: Best way to clean (AND LUBE) a used lathe Posted by: "wa5cabx~xxcs.com" Date: Tue Dec 27, 2011 8:51 pm ((PST)) docn8as, My 1978 printing of the Atlas lathe manual does say 10 wt one place, in the text while referring to the care and feeding of Timken roller bearings. However, on the lubrication chart in the same manual it says 20 wt for the same location. I think it's a misprint that three generations of copyreaders never caught. I don't think that mixed 10 wt and 30 wt will separate back out into two layers (you'd have to run it back through the still to do that). I just don't know for certain that the SAE viscosity scale is linear. Oil isn't like paint and paint thinner, where the pigment actually consists of very small solid particles. And certainly if what you wanted was 20 wt and absolutely all that you could get was 10 and 30, a 50:50 mixture of the two would have to be closer to 20 than to 10 or 30. :-) As far as the dirty oil for sawing goes, I would guess that it is slightly abrasive from minute metal and carbon particles floating in it, which would probably speed cutting. Robert ------- Re: Best way to clean (AND LUBE) a used lathe Posted by: "Rexarino" rexarinox~xxgmail.com Date: Wed Dec 28, 2011 1:23 am ((PST)) Doc, I completely agree that any oil is better than none. I never owned way oil until last year, when a friend wanted someone to go halves on a gallon, but I ran the lathe every time I needed to, and it worked fine. I use the handiest quart of motor oil for general and Timken bearing lube. It might be multiweight (heaven forbid!) or 10 or 20 or 30 W detergent (heaven forbid again!) or non detergent. Doesn't matter to me, as all the oil I apply ends up under the machine eventually. Sometimes, when I get trigger happy on the oil gun, it passes right on through. I think the oils mix just fine, but their viscosity doesn't really alter. My guess is that the mixture would have an unpredictable viscosity, maybe like lumpy gravy. The single thing I can be sure of about oil, is that the place I forgot to put it will rust. No, come to think of it, I know one more thing -- if a yahoo group starts discussing oil, there will be at least two more opinions than there are members of the group. For the first half of my life, the taxi cabs in my hometown ran on "re-manufactured" motor oil. The re-manufacture process apparently consisted of letting the sediment settle out, decanting the good stuff, boiling off the water, filtering out the larger bits, adding a dollop of "Conditioners" and dumping it back into the crankcase. Funny thing, those cabs went twice as far between overhauls as the family car... I'm not sure that concerns about finding and using the perfect oil are justified. I've heard of using dirty oil for cutting oil as a child. Dad used it to cut pipe threads, and said it was as good as sulfur oil. Mom said, with a grimace, that it smelled worse, so it should work just fine. I had my fill of dirty oil and oil residue inside engines during my years as a mechanic and automotive machinist, so I use sulfur cutting oil, among other concoctions. A to-be-tapped hole full of lard is particularly useful when hand tapping blind holes. It pushes the chips out with it as you thread into the work. My wife's grandfather used to say of Internationals, "They run real good as long as you don't turn 'em off". This comment was intended to tease the son-in-law, my wife's father, who owned at least one IH for most of his adult driving life. His first was somewhere around a '48 Travelall, lovingly called the bump jumper, because the stiff springs and rigid back seat was wilder than an amusement park ride. Thinking of your micrometer, Dad bought a jar of unspecified war surplus penetrating oil in the 1950's that still works better than anything I've seen since. It's probably got more hazardous chemicals than I can spell, but there's nothing on the label that hints at what's in it. The family name for it, revered for 3 generations now, is panther p_ss, which may reflect on the odor it has... Rex ------- Re: Best way to clean (AND LUBE) a used lathe Posted by: "Guenther Paul" paulguenterx~xxatt.net Date: Wed Dec 28, 2011 2:56 am ((PST)) Rex: Back years ago GM used a posi traction additive that was made from whale oil. I have a original small bottle. I had purchased a new corvette in 72 and the posi traction clutches were always sticking. Took it to the dealer and they added the additive and the problem was over. GM dealers still sell it and it is synthetic now. If you like I can get the part number of of it. GP ------- Re: Best way to clean (AND LUBE) a used lathe Posted by: "Guenther Paul" paulguenterx~xxatt.net Date: Wed Dec 28, 2011 3:08 am ((PST)) Scott: Years ago I worked in this shop and we had this big old lathe I believe it was brought over by Christopher Columbus. It had like a 36" swing and was all open gears. We took STP oil additive and poured it on the gears. The old beast ran real quiet after STP was on it and it stuck to the gears for a long time. I made big parts on it that were used for a foundry and the Lathe usually ran all day and the STP lasted all day. GP ------- Re: Best way to clean (AND LUBE) a used lathe Posted by: "Doc" n8as1x~xxaol.com docn8as Date: Wed Dec 28, 2011 12:48 pm ((PST)) Rexarino ... brings back memories ..awfully lomg time since i have seen those green bottles of remanufactured oil ...& i used them on near forgotten cars ...(39 hudson that compression so poor wud not spin fast enuf to start & had to park on a hill to start).......34 plymouth (ole smokey), oil mileage wasnt much better than gas mileage .....used to save crankcase drainings at the gas station & reuse them ....36 olds straight eight w/ a rod knocking so loud, you cud hear it a block away & king pins so worn thud a COMPLETE stop necessary to stop the shake after going across a streetcar track ....we rode 40+ miles on sat nite to ft knox playing music, 35 MPH... 4guys and a string bass ...i was back finishing high school, others were just out of army w/ families & trying to go to school on GI bill ...just no money anywhere ....2years later it was still running ....& how long ago did we hear the worn rear end pinion gears whining on buicks, pontiacs etc ???.......a 51 chevy that had to be reringed at 45 thou miles, fiber timing gear replaced at 55 thou???.... i still have a cartoon of a kid w/ a lawnmower....home owner asks "how much?" answers seventy five cents, or two bucks if i have to listen to how hard you had it as a kid.... so enuf of this i ALWAYS liked black sulfur cutting oil .. have 1/2 dozen antique tractors & 3 vehicles, so have dirty oil containers everywhere... solvents ..was sorry to see carbon tet off the market, BUT i am still here in spite of drowning in it .... & blowing out asbestos brake drums, & washing out front bearings in gasoline.... i used crisco for tapping 6x48 target scope blocks on rifle barrels while still in high school ....worked GREAT in tough steel & took shavings out like lard ...dont overlook plain bacon grease either...... OK i am thru "off topic" ...... "tnx for the memories" (he has been dead for awhile now) doc ------- NOTE TO FILE: The discussion here is about the best fluid or lubricant to use when cleaning and/or flattening an oil stone that is used for sharpening various blades. Such stones are best flattened with a diamond impregnated stone, although folks have flattened oil stones outside on flat concrete (now aren't they the frugal ones ;-) Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2012 11:40:39 -0500 From: John Ruth Subject: RE: [OldTools] Seeking oil stone wisdom GG's: Oilstone fluids is a subject which we've visited many times on the Porch. In this thread, we have votes for: 1) Marvel Mystery Oil. Not a bad choice - it's Automatic Transmission Fluid (ATF) with some additives. (I know this because a friend got a peek at the old MMO factory in Port Chester, NY.) Not clear exactly which variety of ATF it might be. Perhaps this has changed with time to be compatible with contemporary crankcase oils. 2) Kerosene. A thin alternative which will float the swarf without being too much of a lubricant. Might de-gum gummed-up stones too. 3) Baby oil from the dollar store. Thinner than most USP mineral oils. 4) Mineral oil from the pharmacy. I find this to be too thick, needs something to thin it. Good choice for kitchen knives, as it is safe to eat and has no smell. 5) WD-40 - The galoot aftershave! (No, I don't recall who first called it that, but I know I'm not the first to use this phrase.) 6) Spit. Rev. Roy wrote that this was the preferred fluid for clay-based razor hones. And, last but not least, I'd like to add my own favorites: 7) Dishwashing detergent. Leaves the stone cleaner than when you started, thins to the right consistency with water. Also great for kitchen knives. 8) Tractor Hydraulic Oil. This is almost identical to DTE (Dynamo, Turbine, and Engine) spindle oil. Thin but not too thin. Leaves a bit of oil on your blades, always a good thing. Maybe others should add to this list, and when it becomes as long as it can become, it goes to the FAQ section of the archives? John Ruth ------- Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2012 11:45:59 -0500 From: Tony Zaffuto Subject: Re: [OldTools] Seeking oil stone wisdom I swear by "Marvel Mystery Oil", can get a quart at Wally-world for a couple of bucks and it lasts forever. As with all oilstones, wipe the stone clean after each use. Another upside to this oil, I found it does a marvelous job of cleaning gunk from old leather strops. Leaves them clean, not not too soft/supple. ------- Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2012 11:58:04 -0500 From: Tim Subject: Re: [OldTools] Seeking oil stone wisdom A capful of Marvel Mystery Oil per full fuel tank will also keep the fuel system of a lawn mower or snow blower clean as a whistle. ------- Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2012 11:55:47 -0500 From: John Ruth Subject: Chlorine Rust Cycle (Was RE: [OldTools] Seeking oil stone wisdom) > > My caution would be that if you use cleanser such as Comet on any > > of your sharpening gear, be sure to get a NON CHLORINE cleanser > > because Chlorine is a no-no around steel. > What sort of problems should I be looking for, then? I've been using it > with no apparent ill effects, although I only clean the diamond plate a > few times a year (and thoroughly rinse and dry it). DMT says to use > something like Comet or Ajax and a brush to clean them, so it's not my > own idea. Adam and the assembled Galooterati: Chloride ions chemically combine with steel and start the same tenacious rusting cycle that road salt causes on automobiles. You cannot stop the cycle unless you remove the Cl ions by either electrolysis or removal of the metal containing the chlorine. (That's why you have to "cut back" the edges of a car's rust-outs or else the repair will not last long.) Search the archives to find Dr. George Langford's description of this rusting cycle. I can't recall all the details from memory but it involves the Cl ion forming an FeCl, and then giving up the Fe to an oxygen atom, which I think it gets from the moisture in the air. This is what causes those rust pits that look like wormholes!!! There's a Cl at the bottom of each pit, burrowing its way into the steel via this cyclical chemical reaction. In stainless steels, chlorine can cause difficult-to-understand stress corrosion cracking. I might add that museum conservators who use electrolysis to de-rust historically significant iron that's been in salt water know that they can cease treating the piece when they stop seeing chlorides in the electrolyte, which they change frequently. If you really want to use a cleanser, Barkeeper's Friend uses Oxalic Acid rather than Chlorine. See the MSDS here: http://www.barkeepersfriend.com/files/MSDS_Bar%20Keepers%20Fri end%20Cleanser%20&%20Polish_2012.pdf On the other hand, Oxalic Acid is a poison which you can absorb through the skin, so wear gloves like it says on the warning label. John Ruth ------- Re: cross slide sticks... what am I doing wrong? [taigtools] Posted by: "Stan Stocker" skstockerx~xxcomcast.net Date: Wed Jan 18, 2012 6:08 pm ((PST)) On 01/18/2012 11:31 AM, morbid0000 wrote: > I was foolishly using a squirt bottle of WD-40 and spraying it after each time I used the lathe. Yes, a little Hoppe's #9 all over the screw and nut and now everything moves fine. What do you all suggest for a good light machine oil? < Greetings, For a light oil, you can use non detergent 10 weight oil from a tractor supply place. Some auto parts stores also carry it. Mobil 1 zero weight pure synthetic is an excellent light weight oil, as is their 10 weight. Many folks use Mobil 1 10 weight as a spindle oil on lathes with solid rather than ball bearing headstocks. In passing, until nano lube from St. Claire became available ($40 / ounce), many clockmakers used Mobil 1 zero weight as a clock oil. After having problems with specialized "horological" oil gumming or failing in other ways, I tried it. For three years I had NO lubrication issues. I now use nano-oil for most clock work even though it is far more expensive. I still use 10 weight ND or Mobil 1 on my smaller lathes. I think Vactra #2 is a bit better for the carriage to bed surfaces, but not so superior that I'd encourage you to spend the bucks to get a gallon just for that use :-) Cheers, Stan ------- NOTE TO FILE: Yes we have seen earlier conversations about oil cups and wicks, but folks still come up with variations and new tips. ------- oil cups [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: "rob macdonald" robbiemac947x~xxsbcglobal.net Date: Thu Mar 29, 2012 6:49 am ((PDT)) Hi All, I have a 10' Atlas with an added on QCGB.There were no wicks in the gearbox, I fill them when I run the'box. As to the spindle,the cups were full of swarf and mung. I took out the wicks to clean things up and never put them back in. If you look at the bearing shields, they will retain a small amount of oil, enough to keep the bearing lubricated. I'd like to find a set of drip oilers that wouldn't be in the way,then you could see what was going in and adjust. Rob in CT ------- Re: oil cups Posted by: "Carvel Webb" carvelwx~xxabsamail.co.za Date: Thu Mar 29, 2012 10:20 am ((PDT)) Rob - should you wish to go that route, RDG in the UK stocks the oilers as used on the Myford ML-7. I have never heard of wicks being used in any of the oilers other than those on the spindle. Regards, Carvel ------- Re: Oil cups Posted by: "Paul" paul_probusx~xxyahoo.com Date: Thu Mar 29, 2012 9:12 am ((PDT)) Is there a part number for the oil wicks? Or do I call and explain to them what the problem is and they send the correct wicks? Not sure how "on the ball" the person on the phone will be when I tell them what I need, so I think a part # would be good to know when calling. Thank you, Paul ------- Re: Oil cups Posted by: "wa5cabx~xxcs.com" Date: Thu Mar 29, 2012 9:45 am ((PDT)) Part number 557-097 or 557-047 (same part but from two different parts lists on the same model). My parts list shows 097 but the invoice when I ordered them says 047. Price was $1.00 each. Called "felt plug". Back to the "To felt or not to felt" question, from the various Atlas and Sears parts lists I have it appears that the felt plugs first showed up on the final two 12" models. Which would explain why earlier new on the pallet ones didn't have them. Robert & Susan Downs - Houston wa5cab dot com (Web Store) ------- Re: Oil cups Posted by: "JeffersonHouse" jeffersonhousex~xxq.com Date: Thu Mar 29, 2012 12:45 pm ((PDT)) 'Cotton Shoe Laces' work just fine. ------- Re: Oil cups Posted by: "ihc1965" VSAnconax~xxaol.com Date: Thu Mar 29, 2012 9:37 pm ((PDT)) The lubrication chart put out by Atlas for the 10" lathe specifically mentions the wicking in the oil cups in the headstock. It says not to remove the wicking. ------- Re: Oil cups Posted by: "James Irwin" jirwin1x~xxaustin.rr.com Date: Fri Mar 30, 2012 7:28 am ((PDT)) Without the wicking, the oil just runs thru and leaves the bearings ³dry² in short order. I didn¹t have the handbook or know this for a coupla decades, yet have no problems with my headstock bearings. I always have used heavier than spec oil (90 weight worked well with loose bearings!) and I¹ve kept them wet and do not use my lathe very much at all. Lucky, I guess. Since learning better, thru this forum, I have used Zoom Spout oil and added wool wicks to both my lathes. I also learned how tight to adjusted these bearings. Better cuts are now 'normal'! Jim ------- Re: Oil cups Posted by: "Jon Elson" elsonx~xxpico-systems.com Date: Fri Mar 30, 2012 9:21 am ((PDT)) On the Babbit bearing lathes, the wick is really important to keep a supply of oil to the bearing as it seeps out. On the Timken bearing lathes it is a lot less important, as the roller spacer can hold a lot of oil in all the small gaps. There is a school of thought that you want to flush out the bearings periodically with a gush of oil to float the chips and dust out. Another school thinks that the wick acts as a filter to keep bits of swarf that get into the oil cup from making it down to the bearing. Jon ------- Re: Oil cups Posted by: "Ray" ray.waldbaumx~xxyahoo.com Date: Fri Mar 30, 2012 1:11 pm ((PDT)) Jon, is this "school of thought" something that you have seen in Atlas factory maintenance instructions or a theory held by some lathe owners? Neither of my Timken bearing Atlas/Craftsman lathes have any "wicks" in the spindle bearing oilers and one of those lathes I got new. Perhaps those "wicks" were used on babbit bearing lathes. Also both of my lathes have spring loaded covers on the oilers so how could any debris fall into those oilers? There may be newbies who take information posted here as being authorative and there may be a reason why the factory used free flowing oilers in at least some Timken bearing equipped lathes. ------- Re: Oil cups Posted by: "Jon Elson" elsonx~xxpico-systems.com Date: Fri Mar 30, 2012 9:07 pm ((PDT)) It could be carried in on the tip of the oil can, or collect on the cap and fall in when it is opened. Jon ------- Re: Oil cups Posted by: "inspiro_creo" david.deboizex~xxverizon.net Date: Sat Mar 31, 2012 4:12 am ((PDT)) I have to agree with the spring loaded caps keeping stuff out, so the wick has no purpose as far as debri filter. 25 years ago when I got my first car, 1978 firebird, I was told when changing or topping off the oil, always wipe clean the oil cap and surrounding area. That way when the cap is removed you won't accidently drop any foreign contaminents inside the engine. David ------- Re: Oil cups Posted by: "Richard Hughson" richughsonx~xxgmail.com Date: Fri Mar 30, 2012 1:42 pm ((PDT)) My 12X24 A/C has wicks and Timken bearings. It's old enough to have change gears and 3/8 inch ways. I bought it used but it is nearly brand new, absolutely no wear on the ways at all. It even has the easily lost dipstick for oiling a dead center. I have the impression that it came with the wicks in it. Rick H ------- Re: Oil cups Posted by: "wa5cabx~xxcs.com" Date: Fri Mar 30, 2012 2:17 pm ((PDT)) My Atlas 3996 came new with wicks. They are shown on the parts list that came with it and also on those for the equivalent Craftsman models. My take is that they were included as part of the cup assembly and for whatever reason weren't shown as separate parts until near the end of production. Which doesn't explain why some new ones have turned up without them. Possibly poor quality control at the factory by either Atlas, whoever actually made the cups, or both. Robert & Susan Downs - Houston wa5cab dot com (Web Store) ------- Re: Oil cups Posted by: "Ray" ray.waldbaumx~xxyahoo.com Date: Fri Mar 30, 2012 5:51 pm ((PDT)) Robert, does your 3996 have roller bearings? If "yes" I conclude from this discussion that wicks are probably a good thing on roller bearing spindle oilers. The wicks are a metering device so using the correct material is important. Since the oilers are out of the lathe I'm presently restoring I can experiment with various materials to see what yields an intermittent drip with readily available oil. Back in the days (1979-88) when I was racing Husqvarna motorcycles on the desert, I had 20W oil around because that was spec'd for Husky forks. That oil viscosity is not common in California. Thanks for all the discussion guys. ------- Re: Oil cups Posted by: "wa5cabx~xxcs.com" Date: Fri Mar 30, 2012 8:06 pm ((PDT)) Ray, Yes, the 3996 (the final 12" model) has tapered roller spindle bearings. I bought mine new in 1981. As I posted earlier, you can buy the replacement felt plugs for $1.00 each from Clausing. That's considerably more per foot than what I paid McMaster for some felt roll. But I had to buy 10' and anyway the density was too high. And if it had worked, it would have been, at 30 years per set, about a 4800 year supply. Not good economics. As I've said before, reinventing the wheel can be fun. But there are often better things to do with your time. :-) You can still buy SAE 20 weight ND oil. People who make and sell it just don't call it that anymore. I use Mobile DTE Heavy/Medium Circulating Oil. I haven't looked for other sources but the last I bought was from Enco. $21.48/gallon. Robert Downs - Houston wa5cab dot com (Web Store) ------- Re: Oil cups Posted by: "jerdalx~xxsbcglobal.net" Date: Fri Mar 30, 2012 10:32 pm ((PDT)) It is VERY common to have used wicks with ball or roller bearings... refer to the New Departure applications book for lots of references on that. The wick may draw up oil at a low rate from a lower level reservoir, it may act to slow the flow, it may filter out swarf and dust..... it may do all or most of the above. Ball and roller bearings need only enough oil to carry away heat and provide a little lube against 'scuffing". Too much causes heating and can damage the bearings, although usually at speeds higher than typical lathes. Wicks can function to provide "just enough" oil, and can ensure even distribution. Lots of reasons to use them. JT ------- Re: Oil cups Posted by: "Guenther Paul" paulguenterx~xxatt.net Date: Sat Mar 31, 2012 3:38 am ((PDT)) Ray: Make your own felt plugs. Use drill rod and make a punch; go to a fabric store or craft store and get you some felt. If you just want a few plugs you don't even have to harden the drill rod. To harden, heat the drill rod to a dark cherry red and drop it in any oil. If you need help to make the punch let me know. GP ------- Re: Oil cups Posted by: "Ray" ray.waldbaumx~xxyahoo.com Date: Sat Mar 31, 2012 8:57 am ((PDT)) Guenther and Robert thank you for your replies about the piler felts. Robert, what are the dimensions of the factory felts? My wife has some felt scraps from a project. After reading the discussion the felt seems like a worthwhile addition even if not factory original on my machines. I also have a 1957 Clausing vertical milling machine and its oilers are orifices with spring loaded ball check valves, not cups. ------- Re: Oil cups Posted by: "wa5cabx~xxcs.com" Date: Sat Mar 31, 2012 9:52 am ((PDT)) Ray: The two new ones that I bought, dry, measure 0.550" dia. by 0.312 thick or long. 1/2" would probably work as the felt will expand slightly when oil soaked. The ID of the cup appears to be 1/2". If anyone buys new ones from Clausing, install them dry. Then oil them. Robert Downs - Houston wa5cab dot com (Web Store) ------- Oil cups Posted by: "Bob Robinson" robinx~xxzzzip.net Date: Sun Apr 1, 2012 9:19 pm ((PDT)) I borrowed some heavy wool yarn from my wife, used a small diameter wire to stuff the end of the yarn to the bottom of the oiler hole, nearly filled the cup with the rest of the yarn, saturated it with 20 weight air compressor oil. Worked perfectly. Bob ------- Re: Oil cups Posted by: "wa5cabx~xxcs.com" Date: Sun Apr 1, 2012 9:36 pm ((PDT)) Bob, I don't have a cross-section view drawing of the headstock so don't know that what you did will hurt anything. But, as should be evident from my answer earlier to the question about the original felt dimensions, there is no felt in the hole below the oil cup in the original setup. The original felts are short cylinders slightly greater than 1/2" diameter by 5/16" tall. There is nothing down in the hole. Hopefully, the end of the yarn won't get down into the rollers. Robert Downs - Houston wa5cab dot com (Web Store) ------- Re: Oil cups Posted by: "Jon Elson" elsonx~xxpico-systems.com Date: Mon Apr 2, 2012 9:05 am ((PDT)) That is pretty much impossible. The oil cup hole drilled into the main casting intersects the bore that accepts the outer race. The hole is almost closed off by the outer race, so the wick is pretty much stopped right there. Jon ------- Re: Oil cups Posted by: "wa5cabx~xxcs.com" Date: Mon Apr 2, 2012 1:55 pm ((PDT)) OK. I haven't had my spindle bearings out of the headstock so didn't know exactly how the hole for the cup intersected the hole for the bearing. Anyway, to anyone else who uses locally available materials, it isn't necessary to go to the trouble of stuffing it down the small hole in the bottom of the cup. I was a little surprised myself when the new felts arrived and were short cylinders rather than a T cross section piece, or two pieces, one large and one small. I didn't mention it earlier but when I bought the 1/2" dia. felt from McMaster a year or so ago, I also bought some 3/16" diameter rod or rope, having assumed the same thing that Bob had. Robert Downs - Houston wa5cab dot com (Web Store) ------- Re: Oil cups Posted by: "Ray" ray.waldbaumx~xxyahoo.com Date: Mon Apr 2, 2012 3:24 pm ((PDT)) "I was a little surprised myself when the new felts arrived and were short cylinders". Robert, is it a hollow cylinder or a solid plug of felt? I'm asking because you have the actual item there and I'd like to duplicate it. Thanks! ------- Re: Oil cups Posted by: "wa5cabx~xxcs.com" Date: Mon Apr 2, 2012 3:32 pm ((PDT)) Ray: It's a solid plug (cylinder). The two here measured about 0.55" diameter and 0.312 long. And lower density (softer) than what I got from McMaster. Robert Downs - Houston wa5cab dot com (Web Store) ------- Re: Oil cups Posted by: "Fred1900" fred1900x~xxyahoo.com Date: Mon Apr 2, 2012 4:46 pm ((PDT)) The felts sound like someone cut some hearing protectors in half and re-sold them. Fred19 ------- Re: Oil cups Posted by: "wa5cabx~xxcs.com" Date: Mon Apr 2, 2012 4:50 pm ((PDT)) If so, they would have been quite uncomfortable. All that I've ever worn were sponge rubber. These were probably punched out of 5/16" felt sheet. Robert Downs - Houston wa5cab dot com (Web Store) ------- Re: Oil cups Posted by: "Bob Robinson" robinx~xxzzzip.net Date: Mon Apr 2, 2012 6:19 pm ((PDT)) I should have been more explicit. First I ran a small copper wire in the hole and found it was blind. The drawings I have show it seems to end over the outer race. In any case, yarn wicking was what I essentially found when it was taken out of the cup. The lathe, 101.07403 with Timken bearings, was purchased new from Sears by my father some time, I think, in the early 60’s. What I found in the oil cups was original. I removed the wicking from only the cup closest to the chuck spindle. After removing the bulk of it from the cup proper, I pulled about an inch out of the hole. The original looked so good I left the others alone. They have wicking, it is real soft when poke it. No idea why this lathe is different from those with felt inserts. I assume there were constant engineering design changes. Bob ------- Re: Oil cups Posted by: "wa5cabx~xxcs.com" Date: Mon Apr 2, 2012 7:48 pm ((PDT)) Bob, OK. The wicking material doesn't show up on any of the parts lists I have until the final flat front cabinet models. Strange. The 101.07403 appears in the 1956 Craftsman catalog but not in the 1959. No one seems to have come up with a 1957 or 1958 yet so I can't say the last year it appeared But late 50's anyway. Sorta like my Shopsmith. My Father-in-law can't pin down the year he bought the 500 closer than mid 50's or the 505 upgrade closer than mid 80's. When you ran the copper wire into the hole, did you find any small gap whereby the oil could get past the cup? Reason I ask is that after I removed the old felts from both cups on my 3996, I squirted oil into the left one and it fairly quickly ran through. So I put in the new felt and saturated it with oil. Then I filled the cup at the chuck end and it did not run through. And two days later, it still hasn't. This was 20W oil. I still haven't installed the new felt. Robert Downs - Houston wa5cab dot com (Web Store) ------- Re: Oil cups Posted by: "MikeyT" diesel_guy01x~xxatt.net Date: Tue Apr 3, 2012 5:33 pm ((PDT)) Robert, I have 2 early 70' Craftsman underdrives, both had felt disks as you have described, and with no felt, both also flow more oil "naturally" thru the left bearing, but even the right bearing will empty the cup in 10 or 15 seconds... I think you have a blockage. Regards, Michael ------- Re: Oil cups Posted by: "Rexarino" rexarinox~xxgmail.com Date: Tue Apr 3, 2012 9:13 am ((PDT)) The original wick in my roller bearing headstock, new circa 1970, is slightly twisted wick somewhat like a loose-twisted lamp wick as was used in kerosene lamps. It's not a felt plug, it's a thick, loosely woven soft (cotton?) rope stuffed down into the bore. This came with the new lathe. I doubt it makes a big difference what you use as long as it holds and slows the oil. Rex ------- NOTE TO FILE: The following conversation falls into the category of a product used for its protectant properties. ------- Date: Mon, 2 Apr 2012 01:06:24 -0400 From: "ASRA-Eduardo De Diego" Subject: [OldTools] Use of Renaissance Wax for the preservation of metal objects (tools)-Microcrystalline Wax for Rust prevention O Grand Galoots; One of our current security design projects is a Museum that has a large quantity of firearms in the permanent Collection. During research on disaster management for the Collection, I came across the use of "Renaissance Wax" for the protection of metals (firearms). The only reference I could find in the Archives was a mention by Marv Paisner in '98,didn't seem to be any replies to his question. Has anyone on the Porch used Renaissance Wax and if yes, were the results satisfactory? It would seem that this is a potential panacea for the deleterious effects of humidity, coastal environments; one that may resolve that great challenge: Rust-Free Tools. Is this the Holy Grail of Rust Prevention? Is it better than BoeShield? The product is available via Amazon (no affiliation & etc.) Here is an excerpt of an article in "Guns & Ammo" (Schrier, March 13, 2012) "Here are some tips from those of us in the museum world who have seen it all and dealt with it all during our careers. Conservation Saves the Day For seven days in August 2005, Hurricane Katrina ravaged the United States and killed over 1,800 people and left $81 billion of damage in its wake. Some of the positive by-products of the devastation were the damage reports filed by museum curators on the condition of the artifacts that were recovered. In an article printed shortly after the event, complete with photographic support, a comparison of the effect of salt water on the metal and finish of numerous 18th and 19th century firearms that had been subjected to the worst of the flood waters was examined in detail. The firearms that had been documented as having undergone application of microcrystalline wax had been returned to their pre-hurricane condition, and for the most part looked no worse for wear. Those that had not undergone the wax treatment looked as though they had been salvaged from the hold of a Spanish Galleon after a few centuries on the floor of the sea. Microcrystalline wax has been a mainstay of the museum world since its development and accepted use by curators at the British Museum since the 1950s. It sheaths metal objects with a microscopic layer of protective wax that leaves no visible trace of discoloration. It resists oil and outside penetrants without any loss in protection. Using gloves, museum curators apply a light coating to the metal parts of all our firearms. Manufactured in the UK under the trade name Renaissance Wax, the British Museum and hundreds of other museums and private collectors use it to ensure that these items are here for centuries to come." ------- Date: Mon, 02 Apr 2012 11:38:44 -0400 From: "Cliff Rohrabacher, Esq" Subject: Re: [OldTools] Use of Renaissance Wax for the preservation of metal objects (tools)-Microcrystalline Wax for Rust prevention Yes I've used it. IMHO the stuff does not live up to the hype'. Wax as a prophylactic measure against corrosion for items that are stored and not used often is only so good as the willingness to re apply it over and over again. Micro-crystalline wax will have a better adhesion characteristic than regular paraffin. I've worked with the stuff in pure form and it is gooey and sticky and highly adhesive. But it is just wax. It's better than nothing, but it's not all that grand. A museum is better spending the money on humidity control. My corrosion inhibitor is a heated blend of mineral oil and wax. The mineral oil gets into small places that no wax can. It bonds nicely to metal surfaces too. Why not use a petroleum oil? And of course there are firearms experts who do business along the damp coastal areas who also have to store guns for extended periods, you might ask them. Check out the gunsmiths. I bet you will hear more about oils than waxes. ------- Date: Mon, 02 Apr 2012 11:59:27 -0400 From: Bill Taggart Subject: Re: [OldTools] Use of Renaissance Wax for the preservation of metal objects (tools)-Microcrystalline Wax for Rust prevention On 4/2/2012 11:38 AM, Cliff Rohrabacher, Esq wrote: > Why not use a petroleum oil? Because it tends to be greasy and dry kinda sticky, which accumulates dust. Bill T. ------- Date: Mon, 02 Apr 2012 14:06:12 -0400 From: "Cliff Rohrabacher, Esq" Subject: Re: [OldTools] Use of Renaissance Wax for the preservation of metal objects (tools)-Microcrystalline Wax for Rust prevention Yah it will. Micro-crystalline wax will trap dust also, it'll just take longer. Won't trap so much though. Still, I should think that environmental controls with scheduled oiling and cleaning would be the way to go. I've waxed things and hung them only to find later that the wax wasn't proof against corrosion. It's just a measure. ------- Date: Mon, 2 Apr 2012 13:45:15 -0500 From: "Joseph Sullivan" Subject: RE: [OldTools] Use of Renaissance Wax for the preservation of metal objects (tools)-Microcrystalline Wax for Rust prevention SNIP Has anyone on the Porch used Renaissance Wax and if yes, were the results satisfactory? It would seem that this is a potential panacea for the deleterious effects of humidity, coastal environments; one that may resolve that great challenge: Rust-Free Tools. Is this the Holy Grail of Rust Prevention? Is it better than BoeShield? END SNIP I've used it. It is excellent. Most museum curators use it, and it is a recommended best practice and has been for decades. I can't make a comparison of Ren with BoeShield. HOWEVER, Renaissance is best on metal. While it is an excellent protective wax for wood, it is clear to white and unless you work very hard at it, leaves white color in the cracks and crevasses of wood. For wood you are better off with top quality tinted wax like Black Bison. Joe ------- Date: Mon, 02 Apr 2012 14:56:21 -0400 From: Anthony Seo Subject: RE: [OldTools] Use of Renaissance Wax for the preservation of metal objects For a while there I was using the clear Butchers Bowling Alley Wax and was running into the same problem with wood. I never really cared for the look which is why I switched back to my old beeswax and linseed oil mix, which works just as well on metal. It's not 100% waterproof but it does the job and the slightly darkened patina on old iron looks better to my eye. FWIW Tony Olde River Hard Goods http://www.oldetoolshop.com http://www.facebook.com/tonyseomusic ------- Date: Mon, 02 Apr 2012 20:57:01 -0500 From: Tad Anhalt Subject: Re: [OldTools] Use of Renaissance Wax for the preservation of metal objects (tools)-Microcrystalline Wax for Rust prevention On 04/02/2012, ASRA-Eduardo De Diego wrote: > Has anyone on the Porch used Renaissance Wax and if yes, > were the results satisfactory? Yes, it works fine. However, automotive wax is shinier and seems to last longer as well. May want to give it a shot for comparison sake. Tad Anhalt Des Moines, Ia. ------- Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2012 12:16:46 +1000 From: Mick Dowling Subject: Re: [OldTools] Use of Renaissance Wax for the preservation of metal objects (tools)-Microcrystalline Wax for Rust prevention GGs I don't use wax myself. I use a product called Ferro Pak G15. It's a spray WD40 type product but dries with a waxy type finish. It works a treat in Melbourne's climatic conditions, which are generally mild. Not sure where it's made or if it's available elsewhere in the known universe. You may get it at a engineering supplies, or auto spares joints. There would be similar products around I'm sure. I get mine from HTPAA member and high end tool maker Chris Vesper. Here's his website; https://www.vespertools.com.au/ Mick Dowling Melbourne Member, Hand Tool Preservation Association of Australia Inc. ------- Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2012 00:03:41 -0500 From: John Holladay Subject: Re: [OldTools] Use of Renaissance Wax for the preservation of metal objects (tools)-Microcrystalline Wax for Rust prevention There is a potential problem with the use of automotive waves. The carnuba based waxes are fine, but be double sure the wax does not also contain silicone, a many automotive waxes do. I think, a general rule, the paste waxes at pretty safe. Spray on waxes often contain silicone. The silicone won't hurt metal, but I don't think it is any secret what can happen when applying finish to wood that has inadvertently gotten silicone on it. Doc ------- Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2012 09:22:47 -0400 From: Charlie Rodgers Subject: Re: [OldTools] Use of Renaissance Wax for the preservation of metal objects (tools)-Microcrystalline Wax for Rust prevention Doc brings up a good point. I once (about 1980) had a deer jump out of the bushes one night and run into the rear door on my new (9 month old) car as I was exiting a highway in Jacksonville, Florida. Caved in the door but no other damage to the car. Insurance sent me to a body shop...they refinished it 3 times and it still looked like body color sprayed over one of the local oranges. Insurance refused to pay for any further attempts. I then took it to the dealership body shop where I'd bought the car, prepared to pay out of my own pocket. Got a call a few days later that car was ready. When I went to pick it up, the manager and couple of guys working there wanted to know what I'd put on it because they had to strip the door to bare metal and clean it twice before primer would stick. Apparently the silicone in the stuff I'd used had penetrated the paint and bonded with the metal. When I told them, they said they were gonna go buy some and put it on their cars...rusting bodywork is a problem in Florida. Charlie Rodgers Clinton, Maryland P.S. Oh, it was Rain Dance...I bought it because it was very easy to use and I definitely wouldn't put it on ANYTHING to which I want later to apply a finish. P.P.S. Bodyshop manager was friends with the insurance regional manager...I didn't have to pay for the repair. ------- Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2012 18:53:43 -0500 From: Tad Anhalt Subject: Re: [OldTools] Use of Renaissance Wax for the preservation of metal objects (tools)-Microcrystalline Wax for Rust prevention Well sure. I wouldn't use it on furniture (for lots of reasons other than just silicone), but to be fair, the OP was talking about firearms. Bluing is one of those things where I like a belt, suspenders and the kitchen sink approach to keeping it protected. Much less worried about ease of refinishing woodwork than having to deal with a nasty rusty fingerprint or similar. DAMHIKT. I say that even having personally experienced this sort of issue with tools, furniture and yes, auto paint. Fisheye is a real PITA, I agree. With the sort of stuff I have and work on, the chances of me being the one to introduce the problem is pretty slim, but the chances of running into it anyway seem to be running pretty close to 1:1. To put it a slightly different way and for what it's worth, I'm pretty sure the stuff I use doesn't have silicone, although, I'll bet the prior owners of my stuff used something that did ;) Tad Anhalt Des Moines, Ia. ------- NOTE TO FILE: The next conversation followed a Lee Valley Tools listing of a set of 3 oil cans, of different designs. ------- Date: Sun, 27 May 2012 16:11:40 -0700 From: scott grandstaff Subject: Re: [OldTools] Oil Can Consumer Warning > I was looking at the ad for the three oilcans and wondering > what use the other two would be if you had the one with > the bendable gooseneck feature You might think that. I think I thought it, once. http://users.snowcrest.net/kitty/sgrandstaff/images/house/pliers0.jpg But really, it's the middle one, the short stiff perpendicular spout, that sees the most use in my shop. Reaches right in and "gets it". The spout is just right for hitting bushing and bearing journals. In fact if you have old fashion spring covered bushing oil cups, there is a little bead right around the nose just made to grab and lift those caps. The long gooseneck is the one for when it's impossible to reach, and you need to snake a spout in for a few well placed drops. But you will find in normal work its just not as easy to aim an 18" spout. yours Scott Scott Grandstaff Box 409 Happy Camp, Ca 96039 http://www.snowcrest.net/kitty/sgrandstaff/ http://www.snowcrest.net/kitty/hpages/index.html ------- Date: Mon, 28 May 2012 10:05:56 -0500 From: Charlie Driggs Subject: Re: [OldTools] Oil Can Consumer Warning Steve, I have one gooseneck can remaining, a maybe 3 oz. capacity finger pump action item perhaps 25 yrs old (I bought it new) that stays in the garage for occasional automotive/generator/lawn tractor whatever work. That one leaks from the cap threads if it falls over. Having used a few of these in different sizes, I learned that the necks can loosen up with use and flop when you don't want them to. In the shop, I have two little domed bottom oilcans, the type that you just operate with your thumb on the bottom. Click, and a little shot goes right where you want it. One has about a 4 inch spout and is embossed "Singer, Made in USA" around the tank, the other is the next size larger with about a 5 inch spout, both with 45 deg. bent tips. Very nice. Easy to see where the shot of oil is going. One has 30 wt oil, the other 3-in-1 or light machine oil. Perfect. Old as in maybe 75-100 yrs. They don't leak. One from the family farm, the smaller one at a flea for less than $1. Can't be better than those for nearly any oiling job unless you have the miserable situation Scott alludes to where the spot is just impossible to reach. That's what the goosenecks types are for. The straight tapered spouts are perfect for oiling bicycle components (hint). That's what I first used oilcans of that type for as kid that wasn't happy unless I could take my bicycles apart and put them back together. Charlie ------- Re: Cutting oils [myfordlathes] Posted by: "David Littlewood" davidx~xxdlittlewood.co.uk Date: Sat Jul 7, 2012 10:55 am ((PDT)) t.lund378x~xxbtinternet.com writes: >Please has anyone any experience of using neat cutting oil instead of >suds as a coolant using a Myford coolant pump? >I have a Super 7B and have used ordinary water based suds for several >years and it is starting to mark the bed where it gets trapped under >the felt wiper and I have read that cutting oils do not have this effect. >Can any body help. thanks Tim Lund Tim, I have used Shell Garia H (at least I think it's H!), as recommended by George Thomas, for about 20 years. I don't use a coolant pump, I just drip it on from a squeezy bottle on a total loss basis, and in 20 years I have probably used about 20% of the large drum I bought. I do have a pump on my Emco mill; that worked very well until the tank sprang a leak, but it was inclined to leave a lot of mess in the tray, and for that reason I have never bothered to replace the tank. At no time have I seen any evidence of corrosion; a little staining under the machine vice on the milling table when I have left it untouched for a year or so. Been perfectly happy with this method - on a S7, a Harrison M300, and the Emco FB2 - with the only slight drawback being the tendency to smoke somewhat when heavy cuts are made. David Littlewood ------- Re: Cutting oils Posted by: "Bob Hamilton" bobx~xxhamilton-bob.freeserve.co.uk Date: Sun Jul 8, 2012 3:55 am ((PDT)) The machine that I have came with a pump and tank of a well made but not typical suds type. It has a cutting oil in it and while I have used it on an odd occasion, I do tend to use a squirty bottle instead. The oil is messy, but not as inclined to get thrown all over the garage, as I would expect soluble stuff to do. To be honest I really only use cutting oil for specific applications, such as screwcutting, so I'm not the one to offer any advice, but I have no staining of the bed. Bob ------- Re: Cutting oils Posted by: "slotscot" dave.nicholsonx~xxblueyonder.co.uk Date: Sun Jul 8, 2012 4:18 am ((PDT)) On the odd occasion I have used the coolant pump it has been at slow revs otherwise there is a lot chucked about. I assume the primary question was whether to use the water soluble suds type or the more modern cutting oil (neat or diluted in suitable medium). I use Cutmax diluted approx 50/50 with paraffin applied by an old Febreze sprayer and works fine mainly as a turning aid. When I spray it on, it usually smokes as the job is too hot already.... I seem to remember that if the cutting oil has sulphur in it it can make a big difference to whether it stains or not. Phone a company and ask, in my experience they are only too happy to help. Dave ------- Re: Cutting oils Posted by: "jamiecrooks23" jamiecrooks23x~xxyahoo.com Date: Sun Jul 8, 2012 4:48 am ((PDT)) Hi Tim, I too read about suds eventually pitting the lathe bed so asked a similar question on here a while back, have a look at the replies to message 3880 for related comments at the time. In the end I bought some "Cora B Neat Cutting Oil" from Morris lubricants, about £30 for 5 litres with the postage & vat... Seems fine to me, but I've not used suds so I can't offer a direct comparison. I made an adjustable arm to hold an oil dripper over the cutting tool which gives a constant rate of application for an easy life. In the absence of a pump/recycling system I try to catch most of it in a plastic tray beneath the lathe and filter out the sediment before reuse (with several layers of material stretched in a 4 inch embroidery hoop which sits over an ice cream tub - basic, I know, but it allows me to drain the oil off the curls of metal as well, before throwing away) - works quite well, and my wife hasn't noticed the missing embroidery hoop yet either! Jamie ------- Re: Cutting oils Posted by: "Bob Hamilton" bobx~xxhamilton-bob.freeserve.co.uk Date: Mon Jul 9, 2012 10:35 am ((PDT)) > can anyone also tell me what "suds " is Can’t tell you where “SUDS” comes from, it’s just a term that has, as far as my knowledge goes back, always been used to describe the soluble oil used on engineering type machine tools for cooling and lubricating the cutting tools. I understand that it may be an outdated term relative to modern CNC machine tooling, but certainly not relative to 50 plus year old machines such as our beloved Myfords. The best answer that I could attempt to give you is this. When mixing Soluble oil and water in a bucket or similar, it froths up, so maybe it was likened to the suds used whilst washing clothes, way back.??? Hope the above has helped Bob ------- Re: Cutting oils Posted by: "Don Edwards" wandleside3x~xxbtinternet.com Date: Mon Jul 9, 2012 10:36 am ((PDT)) Hi Steve. A mixture of water and soap (i.e.suds) was once used as a coolant in machining processes. An effective coolant and very cheap. The name has stuck. Cheers, Don Edwards ------- Roller bearing lube ?? grease or oil ?? [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: "crashbone256" wheezer606x~xxverizon.net Date: Mon Aug 27, 2012 7:08 pm ((PDT)) I am making a countershaft for my rebuilt B&L lathe using an old Atlas 10F unit. This unit has the countershaft V pulleys supported by roller bearings in a cast iron shell which is suspended by two positioning screws. The cast iron shells have no provision for adding oil to the bearing. The roller bearings are not sealed. The question is: Should I pack the bearings with the same bearing grease spec'd for my Burke mill's ball bearings OR should I drill and tap for Gits oil cups to add spindle oil for the bearings. The C-shaft will rotate at 1780 rpm driven by V-belt from the motor shaft. The take off will be flat belt to the headstock of the lathe, with max rpm of about 1000 rpm, since it is a solid bearing spindle. lance ------- Re: [atlas_craftsman] Roller bearing lube ?? greas Posted by: "Bob Robinson" robinx~xxzzzip.net Date: Mon Aug 27, 2012 8:19 pm ((PDT)) A bearing running at 1200 RPM or faster should not be “packed.” It should be no more than a third full of grease. Too much grease will cause the bearing to run hot. I would use oil unless the oil runs out too quickly. Bob KU8C ------- Re: Roller bearing lube ?? grease or oil ?? Posted by: "James Blackett" jamesrblackettx~xxbtopenworld.com Date: Tue Aug 28, 2012 2:42 am ((PDT)) Hi, I bought an old 10F in need of some TLC about ten years ago. The countershaft and bearings were damaged beyond repair; so I bought some new shaft material and some roller bearings, which I managed to fit in place of the plain bearings without too much work. Like yours the bearings are not fully sealed, I part filled them with multi-purpose grease and put it all together. To date the shaft has worked perfectly with no problems, the grease seems to stay in the bearing, although I'm not sure why. James ------- Re: Roller bearing lube ?? grease or oil ?? Posted by: "ihc1965" VSAnconax~xxaol.com Date: Tue Aug 28, 2012 8:17 am ((PDT)) The Atlas countershafts were designed with grease cups on the ends of the shaft. The shaft is hollow and turning the cup half a turn every now and then forces grease through the shaft and out of a small hole where the bearings are seated. ------- Re: Roller bearing lube ?? grease or oil ?? Posted by: "Eggleston Lance" wheezer606x~xxverizon.net Date: Tue Aug 28, 2012 8:31 am ((PDT)) Interesting my shaft is not original. It is solid 3/4" steel rod. lance ------- Re: Roller bearing lube ?? grease or oil ?? Posted by: "Raymond" jwreyx~xxusa.net Date: Fri Aug 31, 2012 10:06 am ((PDT)) Hello Lance The original shaft is drilled from each end with a cross-drilled hole for lubrication distribution to the bearings. Both ends of the shaft were then threaded for a cap. The concept was to load the caps with automotive "cup grease" (any modern NLGI #2 EP grease will work) then thread them onto the ends of the shaft. Doing so forced grease through the galleries into the bearings. A slight 1/4 to 1/2 turn periodically would keep the rollers lubricated. When the caps bottomed out it was time for a refill. It was important (though not documented) to throughly clean off any excess grease that oozed from the housings at the shafts to prevent the operator from being splattered with grease as the shaft spins. This also helps to address the problems of having blobs of grease, however small, being cast off in the near proximity to a V-belt drive system. Because the cast iron housings have no seals everything in proximity will be showered with oil if that is what you use with GITS oilers. Even with the appropriate felt inserts to control the drip rate oil is still going to be flung off the shaft as it weeps from the bearings. If you choose to not drill the shaft and make screw-on caps I might suggest drilling the castings and installing grease zerks. Then you can then give them a shot of grease periodically. You will still need to clean off the excess squeeze-through for the reasons discussed above. raymond ------- Myford oils [myfordlathes] Posted by: "lawrence.atlas618" lawrence.atlas618x~xxyahoo.com Date: Fri Aug 31, 2012 4:12 pm ((PDT)) ok been researching oils for the myford including spindle oil...but cannot make a decision need your help Thanks Lawrence ------- Re: Myford oils Posted by: "we'realldoomed" sardinesarniex~xxyahoo.com Date: Fri Aug 31, 2012 4:21 pm ((PDT)) Hi. Esso Nuto H32, Shell Tellus 32. Both are premium anti-wear hydraulic oils. Any hydraulic oil with the "32" designation will do. Kind regards ------- Re: Myford oils Posted by: "Cliff Coggin" clifford.cogginx~xxvirgin.net Date: Sat Sep 1, 2012 1:42 am ((PDT)) I can't help with your indecisiveness, but providing the oil meets the ISO 32 specification it will be entirely satisfactory. Cliff Coggin Kent UK ------- Re: Myford oils Posted by: "Pete W." enwodex~xxyahoo.co.uk Date: Sat Sep 1, 2012 6:04 am ((PDT)) Hi there, all, 32 grade (hydraulic) oil is what farmers use in all those hydraulic gizmos they hang off the back of their tractors. Farmers don't like paying over the odds for anything - so look in your local Yellow Pages for 'Agricultural Engineers' or 'Agricultural Engineers' Suppliers'. They'll likely sell you a gallon of 32 oil for what the home workshop suppliers would charge for 500 mL. It worked for me!! Best regards, Pete W. (aka 'Enwode') ------- NOTE TO FILE: The following conversation is a tiny extract of one of the numerous discussions out there about suitable penetrating oils. Home Shop Machinist magazine once featured a comparison that found a mixture of automobile automatic transmission fluid and acetone was a more effective penetrating fluid than the common brand name products for that function. But there is some new information here too. ------- Re: ATF/acetone applicator [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: "Keith Brockmiller" brockklx~xxbellsouth.net Date: Fri Sep 14, 2012 9:33 am ((PDT)) WD 40 is just that. Water Displacer, 40th mixture (?) recipe, iteration? 40th attempt. If I remember correctly, they started in San Diego, and the whole history was in the paper. I heard some Japanese guy put it on a fishing spinner to make it spin better, and found that it attracted fish. Keith ------- Re: ATF/acetone applicator Posted by: "geoffrey_in_siam_atlas_12in_3991" lovex~xxcvbt-web.org Date: Fri Sep 14, 2012 6:30 pm ((PDT)) I found a 10 ml eye dropper bottle to keep the mix in. I also learned that paint thinner is acetone. I had gone to the paint shop and asked for acetone - they had no idea what it was. I've tried mixing some with brake fluid as I don't have an Automatic Transmission and I don't want to buy a liter of ATF to keep forever. Thanks for all your tips. ------- Re: ATF/acetone applicator Posted by: "Scott Henion" shenionx~xxshdesigns.org Date: Fri Sep 14, 2012 6:36 pm ((PDT)) Paint thinner is not acetone; it can be near anything. I bought "paint thinner" once by mistake. The stuff never dried; was like mineral oil. Had to be fairly ignorant to be a paint shop and not know what acetone is. Acetone is called out specifically in many paints as a compatible thinner (Rustoleum is one.) Brake fluid is nasty and corrosive to many metals. Scott G. Henion Craftsman 12x36 lathe: http://shdesigns.org/Craftsman12x36 ------- Re: ATF/acetone applicator Posted by: "wa5cabx~xxcs.com" Date: Fri Sep 14, 2012 10:19 pm ((PDT)) Acetone is not normally sold as paint thinner, although it may be used as such with some epoxy based paints. Paint thinner is also sold as varsol, Stoddard Solvent, mineral oil, etc. None are closely chemically related to acetone. ATF and brake fluid are nowhere near the same thing, either, whether you are talking DOT3, DOT4 or DOT5. Brake fluids are all low viscosity hydraulic fluids (oils). About the only commonly available solvent more volatile than acetone is MEK. Paint thinner isn't even in the same league. I have no idea how good a penetrant a mixture of paint thinner and brake fluid will be but would expect it to be inferior to straight paint thinner by itself and even inferior to WD-40 which is similar to paint thinner, being primarily kerosene. Although ATF can be commonly bought in containers up to 55 gallons, it is commonly available in containers as small as a pint. Also, the taper pin in the rack is an interference (zero clearance) fit. No penetrant is going to allow you to pull it out with your fingers. Robert Downs - Houston wa5cab dot com (Web Store) ------- Re: ATF/acetone applicator Posted by: "jerdalx~xxsbcglobal.net" Date: Sat Sep 15, 2012 6:22 am ((PDT)) Acetone is a very volatile polar solvent. Acetone is relatively non- harmful, since your body manufactures it naturally, and can dispose of it (a fact NOT known to the State of Kalifornia). Not true of many other common solvents. Paint thinner is normally a mix of light hydrocarbons intended as a less volatile solvent, although it is volatile. Stoddard solvent in particular, which is NOT "mineral oil" but "mineral spirits", or "white spirits", is composed of short chain hydrocarbons (7C to 12C, mostly the lighter end) and was developed for dry cleaning 80 years ago or so. ATF is an oil of specific character, loaded down with a pile of additives (but no longer containing whale oil) to modify the friction, stick-slip, oxidation, foaming, etc, etc, etc. Most of those are of no assistance when loosening a rusty part, although some may help. Quite a few combinations of a light solvent with an oil will work as penetrating oils. Generally, a low viscosity (thin) oil nay be best, as thin oils are usually shorter chain molecules, which can be more easily carried into small spaces. It is necessary that the solvent be compatible with the oil, and that the combination should "wet" metal surfaces well. ATF does "wet" surfaces well, and that may account for its use. But any means to carry oil into a tight or rusty space between surfaces will work as a penetrating oil to loosen stuck parts and will work to some degree. If you want to test the probable effectiveness, you can check how well a particular "mix" spreads out on a flaky rust surface, or how well it "wicks in" to the space between two blocks of steel set one on the other. Let it evaporate the solvent content, and see how much oil was carried along. The oil should remain in place after the solvent evaporates. JT ------- Re: bed wear and pitting [myfordlathes] Posted by: "Ian Newman" ian_newx~xxyahoo.com Date: Wed Oct 17, 2012 1:44 am ((PDT)) On Mon, 15/10/12, jcherb14 wrote: > I recently bought a 1979 myford super7 long bed. The lathe has hardened > bed ways, and has developed some small areas of black pitting. Hi. The blackening and pitting was probably caused by poor cleaning of the machine after use which resulted in soluble oil type cutting fluid being left on the bed ways trapped under the saddle. There are two big problems with soluble oils: First, the oils wash away the lubrication on the machine beds, ways, screws, etc, so constant re-oiling is necessary. Second, the oils usually contain anaerobic bacteria which feed off the oils and produce corrosive by-products as a result. These by-products cause black stains on steel and eventually cause pitting. When exposed to the air, there is no problem, but when trapped under cross-slides, saddle, tailstock, machine vices, or soaked into the felt wipers etc the corrosion takes place very quickly unless the machine is cleaned down thoroughly after use. In a commercial environment, where machines are in constant use, the cutting fluid is continuiously washed off the machine surfaces and so this corrosion is not usually a problem. But in "hobby use" where a machine may go for a couple of weeks without being used, good "housekeeping" is essential. All the best, Ian ------- Newbie Lost with grease and oils for Sherline 5410 CNC [SherlineCNC] Posted by: "rcs2022" rcs2022x~xxgmail.com Date: Sat Nov 24, 2012 10:11 am ((PST)) Dear All, Quite lost at the issue of oils, grease and the oiler on my cnc mill, specifically the 5410CNC. When I got the machine new, added some oil I had laying around; long story short, the x and y nuts (slide screw insert) got damaged, got new ones and replaced, still they get damaged after some CNC'ing. Replaced 4 times till now. So I assumed I am doing something wrong with the oil I am using. So I got the Super Lube from Sherline, but it's a grease, so I assume I lubricate everything and put the machine back together. But what do I use in the Oiler then? or to reword, if I grease up the screws do I still need some oil in the oiler? Would appreciate some help or feedback as I want to put it back together using correct oils and grease to avoid a 5th or 6th rebuild. Thanks in advance. ------- Re: Newbie Lost with grease and oils for Sherline 5410 CNC Posted by: "Andy M" trumpy81x~xxoptusnet.com.au Date: Mon Nov 26, 2012 1:15 am ((PST)) GDay All, Opinions will vary but I prefer #2 Way oil, but you could use a 10w30 motor oil if you wanted or if that is at hand. As long as it's slippery it should be fine ;) If the leadscrew nuts are wearing out quickly, there's a good chance that you have other problems beside the oil you're using. Does the saddle move freely with the leadscrews disconnected? Are you over tightening the backlash nuts? Are there any burrs on the leadscrew or the nuts? Any of these things will affect the life of the leadscrew and nuts, and probably a few more things that I haven't thought of. Check every point made before you call the Mill work ready and don't forget to tram it. If you have any questions just holler, someone will answer :) Regards Andy M ------- Re: Newbie Lost with grease and oils for Sherline 5410 CNC Posted by: "a3sigma" dcclark111x~xxcomcast.net Date: Mon Nov 26, 2012 4:33 am ((PST)) I use Sherline's 7550 Super-Lube PTFE grease anywhere that chips won't stick to, and the dry 7555 - Super-Lube Multi-Purpose Synthetic Lubricant everywhere else. Where oil is needed: years ago I had a box full of assorted light machine oils. Tossed them out and now use Mobil One 5W-30 synthetic motor oil everywhere -- inside and outside of machines, engines, tools, creaky hinges... Best, David Clark in Southern Maryland ------- Re: Newbie Lost with grease and oils for Sherline 5410 CNC Posted by: "rcs2022" rcs2022x~xxgmail.com Date: Mon Nov 26, 2012 7:42 am ((PST)) Thanks for your response and help, with all honesty (but don't laugh or mock me) I was using available RC shock oil and Diff oil, seems was a bad choice especially the Shock Oil. Yes I have assembled the Mill with a nice snug fit without binding or extra tightning. Seems the oil I was using a wrong choice. I will get some #2 Way oil from A2Z and will try some synthetic motor oil as per your recommendation and a3sigma's in the next reply. My Dilemma is do I Lube the leadscrew with grease (super Lube from Sherline) and add the oil in the oiler, or just assemble oiling up all parts and then add oil in the oiler? Thanks Again! ------- Re: Newbie Lost with grease and oils for Sherline 5410 CNC Posted by: "rcs2022" rcs2022x~xxgmail.com Date: Mon Nov 26, 2012 8:01 am ((PST)) Thanks for the reply, So if I understand correct, leadscrews of X and Y only oil up and add oil in the oiler, or do I lube with grease then add oil in the oiler? As I only have Sherline's 7550 Super-Lube PTFE grease, I will use it everywhere else, hopefully with the chip guard less or minimal chips should be in the way of the saddle. Hope I should be fine, and thanks again. ------- DON'T use automotive motor oil [SherlineCNC] Posted by: "EngFromSantaClara" ldmillerx~xxastound.net Date: Mon Nov 26, 2012 8:12 am ((PST)) Auto motor oil contains DETERGENTS to remove carbon from cylinders and other parts inside the engine! This will ruin the finish on your machines. Use #2 Way oil for the heavier oil and air tool oil for the lighter oil. #2 Way oil is available at Enco (and many other places like Home Depot), and the air tool oil is available in most hardware stores. Larry ------- Re: DON'T use automotive motor oil Posted by: "dougrundell" drundell1x~xxmsn.com Date: Mon Nov 26, 2012 8:39 am ((PST)) Marvel Mystery Oil is the best smelling oil of the lot I've tried. Helps if you do your machining inside your domicile. ------- Re: DON'T use automotive motor oil Posted by: "a3sigma" dcclark111x~xxcomcast.net Date: Mon Nov 26, 2012 3:40 pm ((PST)) This has not been a problem for me. Sherline machines are mostly anodized aluminum, or polished 12L14 steel. I've not seen motor oil affect either of these. I also have a MiniMill from Little Machine Shop. Their users guide specifically recommends Mobile One for machined surfaces. See page 16 of: http://littlemachineshop.com/Info/MiniMillUsersGuide.pdf Other tools: my band saws, woodworking tools, and drill press have to live in an unheated shed. I protect painted surfaces with automotive paste wax. David Clark in Southern Maryland, USA ------- Re: DON'T use automotive motor oil Posted by: "Stan Stocker" skstockerx~xxcomcast.net Date: Mon Nov 26, 2012 5:25 pm ((PST)) Folks have been using Mobil 1 10 wt in sleeve bearing headstocks on South Bend lathes for years with no problems. I use 10 and 30 wt. Non Detergent (ND) typically, but unless you have a oil filled gearbox the detergent doesn't matter. It actually helps keep crud in suspension for use with pressure lubricated systems with oil filters (AKA just about every car engine made in the last 60 years or more). In total loss systems the oil and crud both just drip off. Neither my mill nor any of the lathes show any signs of finish damage from any of the oils I've used over the years. ND oils at farm supply places isn't as cheap as it used to be; these days it's more expensive than normal motor oils. Stan ------- Re: Newbie Lost with grease and oils for Sherline 5410 CNC Posted by: "Andy M" trumpy81x~xxoptusnet.com.au Date: Wed Nov 28, 2012 6:04 am ((PST)) GDay All, A LITTLE grease at assembly time on CLEAN parts never hurts but I don't see the need to continue using the grease (Superlube) as long as you are using the right oil in the oilers and applying it to the leadscrew and its nuts at regular intervals, then there should be no problem. Mobil one is a good substitute for the #2 way oil as it is fully synthetic and offers the same amount of lubrication as the #2 way oil. I suspect the only real difference between the two oils is the amount and type of detergent used. RC shock Oil and Diff oil was a bad choice but better than nothing at all ;) Live and Learn I always say ... lol Regards Andy M ------- Re: Newbie Lost with grease and oils for Sherline 5410 CNC Posted by: "Andy Wander" andywanderx~xxyahoo.com Date: Wed Nov 28, 2012 7:27 am ((PST)) Way oil is much stickier tyan motor oil. It seems similar in stickiness to chainsaw bar & chain oil. Andy Wander ------- Re: Newbie Lost with grease and oils for Sherline 5410 CNC Posted by: "Stan Stocker" skstockerx~xxcomcast.net Date: Wed Nov 28, 2012 7:36 am ((PST)) Hi Andy, Vactra has cling and EP additives rather than detergent. Personally it seems even Vactra 2 is a bit heavy for these smaller machines. There is a huge difference between a Sherline mill table in weight (and weight of work/vises/etc.) and a 9X32 table on a larger mill. Vactra is used on my larger machine ways, but anything from 10 to 30 weight seems fine for the sliding surfaces of these smaller machines. I've been doing this for 17 years on my Taig and it shows very little wear after a lot of use. Recently I bought a large bottle of superlube oil (not grease) to try, and it seems much smoother than Mobil 1 10 weight on the ways and leadscrews, both on the Taig and Sherline lathes and on the Sherline mill. Seems like good stuff, but after a few years I may wish I'd stuck with something else. New beds are inexpensive and in a working shop machines are consumables, you just try to make them last as long as possible while getting jobs done. Grease has the nasty habit of holding chips and dust, while oil doesn't hold chips and washes off with fresh oil. I've no idea what additives are in the RC oils, if your diffs run open then the grease probably has far too much cling additives to work well in machine tools. If closed, it's probably a GL4 or 5 series hypoid oil, heavy and meant to handle massive sliding pressures on gear faces without shearing. I imagine that shock oil is a hydraulic oil. From the limited knowledge of them I've acquired using machines with hydraulics these oils are engineers for a completely different set of specs. On small machines, it seems you can find folks who use almost everything under the sun, mostly with good results. If you use the machine an hour a month you may be happy with something a person running a 20 hour session under machine control would reject out of hand. For light duty manual operations I'd just say use anything in the ballpark as long as it's a fairly light oil, and get on with things. Take care, Stan ------- Re: Newbie Lost with grease and oils for Sherline 5410 CNC Posted by: "Andy M" trumpy81x~xxoptusnet.com.au Date: Wed Nov 28, 2012 3:22 pm ((PST)) GDay All, Stan and Andy, I think you may have misunderstood my meaning. Both oils will provide similar amounts of lubrication, IE: keeping the metal surfaces apart to prevent wear of said surfaces. Obviously, the two are designed for different purposes and hence have different additives but they still provide the basic lubrication duties that are desirable in any oil. As far as #2 Way oil being stickier in feel, I put that down to the damping effect of the thicker viscosity when compared to the Mobil one which is quite thin in comparison, but I do agree it does have a nicer feel to it. Regards Andy M [and in a later message concerning way oil Andy M writes] This a is great advantage on a machine, as it tends to stay where you put it (on the ways) instead of running off, and decreases the necessary frequency of application. If you use coolant, it is even more of an advantage. ------- Rust preventer [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: "Guenther P" paulguenterx~xxatt.net Date: Thu Dec 20, 2012 4:49 am ((PST)) I bought this product [KEL 132] some years ago. http://www.hardwareworld.com/files/pi/bX/4/N7NR.jpg Let me tell you it works. I sprayed some angle iron with it and had it outside in the weather for at least 4 years. The angle iron is showing some rust now but not like it would without this product on it. I bought this product on my travels in a small town hardware store not far from me. GP ------- [Use of Assembly Grease and Anti-seize Lubricants During Parts Assembly] Re: Never-evers [myfordlathes] Posted by: "gibs3692" gibs3692x~xxgmail.com Date: Wed Jan 2, 2013 5:42 pm ((PST)) Robert Mitchell wrote: > Let add one never: > Never oil an Albrecht drill chuck. > If you think oil me on an MT 2 taper is bad - that is worse. I would toss in my two cents: Grease is to reduce friction. A Morse taper is a light press fit that works on friction. I would lubricate a collet thread but never the collet for the same reason. If you are assembling bolts that are a tight fit (or to be tightened to a specified torque value) and plan to ever remove them, then an assembly grease (or even a thread locker) is useful to keep water and the resultant corrosion out. Threads that are ever going to be removed, or adjusted (packed seals for example), should never be painted; or if they are to be painted, they should be greased before painting. [This pisses the painter off though...] Assembly greases include greases with: aluminum powder (low temperatures) (Neverseez Regular Grade) copper powder (Regular temperatures & salt water)(Copper Coat) nickel powder (high temperatures i.e 200C to 900C)(Neverseez Nickel Grade) and Molybdenum Disulphide (Stainless steel anti galling and extreme pressure lubricant). MoS2 is also used as a lubricant on SS tube fittings as an alternative to silver plating to prevent galling. Graphite should never be used on steel threads as it greatly accelerates corrosion. (Common fitters' mistake, along with using the wrong packing material in power actuated valves.) Lithium based greases are generally not suitable as assembly greases as the lithium compounds degrade on contact with water. These are lessons learned as an industrial instrument maker and repairer over 20 years - I've had to break my share of pipe flanges (and cut stubborn bolts). ------- Re: Never-evers Posted by: "Robert Mitchell" rmm200x~xxyahoo.com Date: Thu Jan 3, 2013 8:51 am ((PST)) Here is one: http://www.mechanicsupport.com/graphite_antiseize.html ------- Re: Never-evers Posted by: "Kevin" tadpolex~xxbtinternet.com Date: Thu Jan 3, 2013 2:35 pm ((PST)) David Littlewood wrote: > Thank you, that was most interesting. I was particularly struck by your > warning about using graphite on steel - do you have any references for > this? I would be interested to know the way this happens (possibly > something to do with the electrical conductivity of graphite?). This all applies in cases where water is likely to be present, if dry then not. Galvanic corrosion occurs when two dissimilar conductive materials (more often two metals, but one of them could be graphite) are in contact with an electrolyte (water, sea-water). The more reactive of the two materials dissolves. There's a technically developed scale of electronegativity which tells you which of a pair is at risk. Graphite is less reactive than any of the metals, and so the metal will corrode. On a job-site (hot coastal location) there were standing instructions to everybody that there be no pencil marks made on the large diameter stainless steel pipes and bellows. One pipe had to be exhaustively cleaned, after much discussion, to remove some penciled calculations that someone had scribbled. The construction crews were issued with special felt-tip pens suitable for use on stainless. I have been told that a similar prohibition applies to pencil marks on "aluminium" aircraft parts. Kevin, NW England, UK ------- Re: Never-evers Posted by: "Ian Newman" ian_newx~xxyahoo.com Date: Fri Jan 4, 2013 1:10 am ((PST)) Hi, A certain amount of "miss-information" is presented on the site quoted: It is not true that "graphite is only a lubricant in the presence of moisture" (in fact the later part of the paragraph contradicts this statement). The article points out that there are corrosion issues with aluminium in the presence of water, but aluminium is a very reactive metal and suffers aggressive corrosion under almost all conditions. Graphite also performs well at high temperatures (up to 450F). Graphite has been widely used in the lock industry, in cameras and for horological uses for many years, although there are now better alternatives such as dry moly based materials. If your use is in indoors on low reactivity materials such as brass or steel, there will be no problems using graphite. If you are using it on aluminium on a boat you may have an issue. See http://www.tribology-abc.com/abc/solidlub.htm http://graflex.org/speed-graphic/lubricants.html All the best, Ian ------- Re: Never-evers Posted by: "Steve T" steve.talbotx~xxtiscali.co.uk Date: Fri Jan 4, 2013 2:31 am ((PST)) That's very interesting. I help out in an aircraft maintenance facility and the approved lubricant/anti seize allowed on spark plugs is a liquid containing graphite. The plugs are steel and the cylinder heads aluminium alloy. Probably explains why there are so many stripped threads in cylinder heads and of course good business for the manufacturers, or am I just being cynical !! Steve T ------- Has anyone ever used a dry film lubricant? [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: "zman0690" Zman0690x~xxvalornet.com Date: Thu Feb 7, 2013 9:01 am ((PST)) I was curious if anyone has attempted to put a dry film lubricant on any of their screws, gears, or cross slide/tailstock mating surfaces. I have looked at several tech sheets of these products which state they work but after searching have not found anything in this group or on other forums where this has been applied. Obviously I'm not suggesting it as a substitute but more along the lines of something that can be done to reduce where and provide lubrication when adequate oiling is not achieved. And please if you are going to make a comment about not using it, please back it up with reasoning, I'm not looking for blanket statements of dismissal. ------- Re: Has anyone ever used a dry film lubricant? Posted by: "Eggleston Lance" wheezer606x~xxverizon.net Date: Thu Feb 7, 2013 9:54 am ((PST)) I have occasionally used Penephite from Kano when I assemble chucks or once on the gear train or the sliding bits of the cross slide. I use it because the graphite is VERY small and gets into the pores of the cast iron. Also, it is dry, so swarf doesn't stick. However, I use regular spindle and way oil over it, to flush off / out the boundary area. And, it gets into the pores of my hands and stays until the skin wears off. I did once use STP on the gear train to quiet it, but man is it STICKY. Swarf and dust magnet. For me, best option is lots of spindle and way oil, liberally and frequently applied. I buy it by the gallon on-line. It's cheap insurance. lance ------- Re: Has anyone ever used a dry film lubricant? Posted by: "JeffersonHouse" jeffersonhousex~xxq.com Date: Thu Feb 7, 2013 10:01 am ((PST)) I've been applying it for over 25 years and have used it on everthing from vehicle engines to table saws and engine lathes. It works great for old patternmakers lathes where you don't want oil but still drive the saddle. I wouldn't recommend it for 'high' precision surfaces such as Bed Ways. The fact that you are trying to makes cut to less than 1/1000 makes their use on any of these surfaces highly suspect. It's nearly impossible to apply these coating to the same precision tolerances as grinding. Gear hubs or spindle exteriors are another thing entirely. By treating these I've been able to restore parts that were of otherwise questionable use. Dry film coating adds approximately .001" per side, so it is obvious how a part that is now over or undersized can be restored to usefulness. The better Milspec coatings can be buffed on clean muslin wheels for close fits that would otherwise have interference. At the current time I'm working on a batch of racing transmission parts and a shotgun for use in coastal duck hunting where it will be regularly exposed to salt spray. I've also used it to reduce or eliminate galling on parts that can't be heat treated. And it's been found useful in arctic environments where the extreme cold would otherwise freeze lubricants. But, again, for application to high precision tool surfaces I would only recommend it for restorative purposes as it will be less precise than the original surface. ------- Re: Has anyone ever used a dry film lubricant? Posted by: "carvel webb" carvelwx~xxabsamail.co.za Date: Thu Feb 7, 2013 12:08 pm ((PST)) Lance touched on a point which I believe is important, and the main reason why I don't use dry film on the sliding surfaces i.e. the liberal use of way oil and other oil in the bearings, and on the way surfaces constitutes a certain amount of 'flushing' action which gets swarf dust and other nasties out of where they are not supposed to be. Myford has a system - and the Atlas is easily modified - whereby the oil is fed to the middle of the carriage so when you oil it it forces the oil between the carriage surfaces and the ways, and carries out the gunk with it - and it is recommended 'daily' - so I assume they were onto something. The same applies albeit to a lesser degree to the gear train. Regards, Carvel ------- NOTE TO FILE: Questions often come up about modern equivalents to sometimes obsolete brands or types of lubricants recommended in the original manuals for our older machines. Here's another discussion. ------- Re: Atlas 10F lube chart. [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: wa5cabx~xxcs.com Date: Wed Feb 13, 2013 7:55 pm ((PST)) In a message dated 02/13/2013, julian.p.67x~xxgmail.com writes: > So the Atlas 10F lube chart is great. I love manuals, and I tend to try my best to operate and maintain things according to manufacture's specs. That being said, it's obvious that some things may call for alternatives as this manual was written many years ago. Which brings me to my question(s). The lube chart calls for S.A.E 10 motor oil. Forgive me if this is an ignorant question, but does that even exist now? I've checked at all the local auto supply stores and keep getting funny looks. What lubes do you guys use for your lathes and what lubes for which parts? I know I want a non detergent oil. I can find S.A.E 30 non detergent, but that seems way too thick, especially when it's colder. < Julian, You can still find SAE 10, at least in Houston. But in the later revised lube charts, Atlas changed to recommending SAE 20, which you won't find anymore in auto parts stores. However, you can buy it by the gallon but under the ISO number system from Enco and others. You can also buy both 10 and 20 weight from 3-in-0ne but the price is prohibitive in the quantities you need to use on a lathe. > Does anyone bother greasing the back gears and or the change gears? I understand the issues of grease collecting dirt and causing more harm than good and have heard many conflicting opinions about this topic in general (to grease the part or not to grease it) The lube chart calls for Keystone No. 122 heavy outer gear lubricant, is there an alternative to this grease that is readily available locally in most cities, and is it worthwhile to grease the gears? < Whether you grease the back and change gears is up to you. As my old dentist used to say about teeth and flossing, you only need to floss the teeth you want to keep. Lubriplate still makes a tacky white grease that works well. And I imagine that the red n' tacky would probably work fine. But do not run the change gears dry unless you like buying new ones. And oil the bushings per the chart. If you keep the covers closed, I have never had any problem with swarf/trash getting into either group of gears. > I greased my countershaft bearings with red n' tacky. I'm just a fan of the stuff, seems to have always served me well. Also, on the lube chart, it calls for a mixture of white lead and oil for the tail stock center lubricant. Firstly, I cannot understand (without taking my tailstock apart) how the lube would reach the tailstock center from where you are supposed to put the lube. Is this just a reservoir that you would dip or somehow apply the lube to the point of the center with? If so, I believe I am missing the cup, because all I have is a hole where it says there should be a "cup". < The hole in the top of the tailstock is just a storage location for the dauber. The later 12" don't have it or the dauber. Which is no loss as I never use anything but a live center in the tailstock. > I am interested to hear what you all have to say through your experiences > on this topic. Thanks for your time. Julian Robert Downs - Houston wa5cab dot com (Web Store) MVPA 9480 ------- Re: Atlas 10F lube chart. Posted by: "Doc" n8as1x~xxaol.com docn8as Date: Wed Feb 13, 2013 8:37 pm ((PST)) TSC stores in southern ky carry nondeterg 10 & 30 ....since i need 10 & 30 for other machines, it is easy to mix up 20 wt. best wishes doc ------- Re: Atlas 10F lube chart. Posted by: "Carvel Webb" carvelwx~xxabsamail.co.za Date: Wed Feb 13, 2013 9:24 pm ((PST)) Julian, Robert and Doc have answered this pretty well. The comment on the lube chart for white lead etc for the tailstock centre refers to the use of a DEAD or fixed centre -- obviously if one is using one of these, the contact point needs some lubrication and Atlas provided this little reservoir in the tailstock casting which had a little metal pin thingy that you could dip in the oil and apply a drop to the centre point every so often. Being in a warmer climate I have used SAE30 on the lathe bearings for years and they are fine. I then use the same oil for the gears, and just oil the gears every time I use them -- they are not normally permanently in mesh and only used for threading and occasional feeding -- and they are also fine. Regards, Carvel ------- Re: Atlas 10F lube chart. [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: "Scott Henion" shenionx~xxshdesigns.org Date: Thu May 9, 2013 11:55 am ((PDT)) In atlas_craftsmanx~xxyahoogroups.com, "a8050266" wrote: >> I use motorcycle chain lube. Ive tried several different brands they all seem pretty similar. Spray it on very liquid like.... wait several hours and its greasy like molasses but wont fly off like grease. Visit your local motorcycle shop they have plenty of brands to choose from. Bottom line is: works for me. not to mention it does quiet down the gear train a bit too. << On 5/9/2013 2:31 PM, Dr.jinG wrote: > Motorcycle chain lube is an interesting idea. My concern would be with > how tacky that stuff can get (and it will sling off once it's warmed > up), but I know that some lubes are wax based, and I wonder how > effective that might be on the gears. Seems like it wouldn't be sticky, > but would lube well... I have tried many things on the gears: Motorcycle chain lube oil/wax Lubraplate Regular 30wt oil Brake lube Bar and chain oil (chainsaw chain oil.) Way oil 80/90wt gear oil. Lubraplate was probably the best and quietest but it was hard to clean off and expensive. I had it for one-way bearings. The greases, lubraplate and moto chain oils all picked up dirt and chips that stuck to the gears. Remember chips fall out the rear of the spindle. The black oxide from the gears suspended in the grease. Motorcycle chain oils got real thick over time and I did see some possible wear (blackness in the oil.) They are real sticky and picked up chips. Bar and chain oil is my first choice it is not real thick but contains tackifier additive to keep it from flying off. No visible wear and any contaminants seemed to work out of the teeth. When done, I just wipe it off and the gears are clean. Besides, it is cheap and I have a gallon of it. As I change gears often (no gearbox), being able to wipe them off and swap them without getting gunk on my hands is a big plus. I hate to have to go was my hands every time or use gloves. I did have to make sure I have nothing under the gears as it will drip down (I'm a bit liberal with it). I suspect the light oil with a bit of STP will work well too. Others swear by it. Scott G. Henion Craftsman 12x36 lathe: http://shdesigns.org/Craftsman12x36 ------- Re: Atlas 10F lube chart. Posted by: wa5cabx~xxcs.com Date: Thu May 9, 2013 12:44 pm ((PDT)) People keep mentioning grease and the other tacky choices picking up chips. In 30+ years, I have never found a chip either inside the headstock or in the change gear area. That could be because the cabinet models are better sealed I guess. Robert Downs - Houston wa5cab dot com (Web Store) MVPA 9480 ------- Re: Atlas 10F lube chart. Posted by: "Scott Henion" shenionx~xxshdesigns.org Date: Thu May 9, 2013 12:56 pm ((PDT)) The main issue is the spindle ends about 1/3 inch inside the left cover. So when doing boring operations, the chips fall out the end and onto the gear train. I have been meaning to make a sliding attachment for the left end to attach an air hose. That would blow out the chips and also keep them from bunching up around the cutter and effecting the finish. Scott G. Henion ------- Re: Atlas 10F lube chart. Posted by: wa5cabx~xxcs.com Date: Thu May 9, 2013 1:58 pm ((PDT)) OK. On the 3996 and presumably the rest of the 1/2" bed models the spindle overhangs a sheet metal baffle attached to the change gear cover by about 1/8 or 3/16 of an inch and the baffle comes up and nearly touches the threaded collar. Robert Downs - Houston ------- Re: Atlas 10F lube chart. Posted by: "Carvel Webb" carvelwx~xxabsamail.co.za Date: Thu May 9, 2013 2:14 pm ((PDT)) HI Scott, Your comment prompts me to share an idea I picked up years ago, and that is to use corks on either end of the spindle when you do not have a work piece that projects into the bore. The front one keeps the MT3 nice and clean, and the back one stops the chips finding their way through to the gears. Regards, Carvel ------- Re: Atlas 10F lube chart. Posted by: "cliff" kenx~xxucsp.com Date: Thu May 9, 2013 5:30 pm ((PDT)) Or possibly because you don't do a lot of interrupted cuts that throw chips everywhere. Although for a fact the cabinet models are better sealed. Here's your laugh for today, although it does in fact work quite well -- any good quality hand lotion, or even bar soap or a candle rubbed into the change gears and their bearings will give good results. ------- Re: Atlas 10F lube chart. Posted by: "dolphin_79605" dolphin_79605x~xxyahoo.com Date: Thu May 9, 2013 8:23 pm ((PDT)) Along the lines of the spindle lube oil conversation, I enjoy the input and thoughts; thank you. The following is a brief of what I have read, some thoughts and local findings. I confirmed Tractor Supply has the Non-Detergent SAE 30 quarts and SAE 20 in 2 gallon jugs. The 3in1 in 10 w was at True Value and the 3in1 20w was at Lowes Home Improvements. Tomorrow I hope to visit the O'Reilly Auto Parts store that advertises to have Non-Detergent SAE 10 and 30 in quarts, but no SAE 20 in similar packaging. Research into compatibility of the Mobil Velocite 10 spindle lube, which I previously thought would be my ultimate choice, shows the viscosity to be near but below that of the SAE 10. My humble, non-lubrication engineer's opinion is (take with 2 gr. nacl) maybe the Velocite Spindle Lube was not necessarily a product conceived and formulated specifically for total loss bearings but more likely those in an oil bath or oil circulation systems. I wish I could twitch my nose and make a quart of SAE 20 non-detergent materialize. Short one of those, I'm leaning toward a 2 gallon purchase. I am going to hold off for a short time on a spindle bearing oil purchase hoping for more information (or maybe for a coupon from Tractor Supply). We have a good Bearing Supply Company here that I've yet to consult. Cheers, Mick - Abilene, TX (M/N 3996) ------- Re: Atlas 10F lube chart. Posted by: wa5cabx~xxcs.com Date: Thu May 9, 2013 10:16 pm ((PDT)) Mick, Mobile DTE Heavy Medium Circulating Oil ISO 68 is equivalent to SAE 20W. You just have to have a French-English conversion chart to figure that out. Enco sells it by the gallon, if you happen to be ordering some other stuff from them to help with shipping. Other machine tool suppliers should have it. Thanks for the tip on Tractor Supply. I'll have to see whether there is one closer to me than Tomball (about 60 miles round trip). Within 4 miles of my house are seven different auto parts suppliers including O'Reilly. None carry straight 20W any more and none that I stood in line to ask can even order it. Ace carries the 3-In-1 20W but only in those little bitty cans. Too expensive given the amount you use for one lube cycle. Robert Downs - Houston ------- Re: Atlas 10F lube chart. Posted by: "dolphin_79605" dolphin_79605x~xxyahoo.com Date: Fri May 10, 2013 5:49 am ((PDT)) The Comparative VIscosity Classifications chart shows ISO 68 near the top end of the SAE 20 viscosity range and ISO 46 near the lower end of the SAE 20 viscosity range. Mobil DTE comes in 4 weights and ISO numbers. The middle two, 46 and 68 are Mobil DTE Medium and Heavy Medium. In regard to viscosities; one could choose either, depending on duty cycle, ambient temperature and other individual machine or situational factors. I'd like to know who carries the Mobil DTE in my area, what it costs and will start looking. I have a very good copy of the Comparative VIscosity Classifications chart and could easily post in photos, files or other appropriate section if anyone has an interest. Mick PS: The SAE 20 Non-Detergent oil at Tractor Supply is labeled under the Traveller brand is retail priced at $24.99 per 2 gallon jug and occasionally goes on sale for $20.00. ------- Re: conversion chart needed [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: wa5cabx~xxcs.com Date: Thu May 9, 2013 10:57 pm ((PDT)) 05/09/2013, a1g2r3ix~xxyahoo.ca writes: > Dear Mick &Group 2013/05/10 00:03hrs. > Isn't ISO 68 hydraulic oil close to SAE 20? I seem to remember that > when I worked as an oiler. I found ISO 68 hydraulic oil as a water > boiler water pump oil in Canadian Tire in about a Liter container. > I think this is a bit less, but close to a U.S quart. > Dictionary says 1.76 pints and I don't think that is Imperial measure. > keep smiling, dennis mac Dennis, Yes, ISO 68 is roughly equivalent to SAE 20, close enough for our purposes. And there are roughly 4-1/2 liters to a US gallon, so smaller than the US quart. The Imperial gallon is larger than the US gallon. I always had to remember that my Series Land Rover 10 gallon fuel tanks actually held 12 gallons. As I wrote earlier, Mobile DTE is available in ISO 68. Robert D. ------- Re: Atlas 10F lube chart. Posted by: "dolphin_79605" dolphin_79605x~xxyahoo.com Date: Fri May 10, 2013 7:46 am ((PDT)) Here is a link to one of the viscosity tables available on line: http://leaderpetroleum.com/viscosity_table.htm Here is a link to one of the major oils cross reference chart: http://www.farwestoil.com/crossreference.pdf ------- Re: Atlas 10F lube chart. Posted by: wa5cabx~xxcs.com Date: Fri May 10, 2013 9:15 am ((PDT)) OK. If you decide to scan the Viscosity chart and post it, do it as a PDF and put it in Files under Maintenance. If you do it as a JPG and put it in Photos, after a few weeks it becomes difficult to find as Yahoo Photos has no search capability whatsoever. The Tractor Supply price on SAE 20 is close to one half of Enco's price last year on the DTE. I haven't checked current price. FWIW, if one looks at various editions of the MOLO (Manual of Lathe Operations) and at the very few Owners Manuals (this isn't included in the several Parts Manuals) that any of us have or have copies of, you will see that Atlas's recommended oil vicosity changed over the years. I have several editions (bought mainly for the machine photos) of the MOLO from 1937 to 1988. Through 1955, they all say SAE 10. From 1965 on they all say SAE 20. The copy of the 3980 through 3991 Owners Manual that we have a copy of is dated June 1961 and says SAE 20. So it appears that the change was probably made at the time of the 12" redesign, around 1957. Robert D. ------- Re: Atlas 10F lube chart. Posted by: "Rexarino" rexarinox~xxgmail.com Date: Fri May 10, 2013 11:05 am ((PDT)) > If a person mixed one quart of 10 Weight oil with a quart of 30 weight, > both non-detergent, would he end up with 2 quarts of 20 weight? No. It's like mixing rocks with sand - you don't get gravel, you get rocks and sand. It seems pointless to me to worry about detergent vs non detergent oils in a total loss system, and 10W, 20W and 30W oils of either and 5W20 or 10W40 detergent oil will easily flow around, through and off of the bearings in the headstock and through all other oil passages. As for carrying contaminants into a bearing, one should note that these interfaces are so exposed that contaminants will find their way into bearing surfaces regardless of the oil used -- indeed, plentiful oil use will flush contaminants OUT, not introduce them! OTOH, this is such an oft-discussed topic, that I suspect a certain group don't want to "just use oil", rather they would prefer the discourse and conversation. If it builds community spirit and happy users, then it serves a valuable purpose. Rex Bosse Portland, Oregon ------- Re: Atlas 10F lube chart. Posted by: wa5cabx~xxcs.com Date: Fri May 10, 2013 10:37 pm ((PDT)) Although the oil runs through the system fairly quickly when the machine is running, it does so much less quickly when it's sitting quietly. Plus in the spindle bearings when the machine isn't running, the dust protectors will retain oil to a depth of 1/2" or so in the bottom of the spindle bearings. For these reasons, I would not recommend using high detergent oil. Especially not in high humidity areas. And because oil flow rate through felt is (with clean felt) mostly a function of felt density (fixed), temperature (variable) and viscosity, if I couldn't get SAE 20 I would use SAE 10, not SAE 30. Same on the back gear bearings in a cabinet model (because they will be harder to lube with SAE 30). Everywhere else should be OK with SAE 30. Robert Downs - Houston wa5cab dot com (Web Store) MVPA 9480 ------- Re: Atlas 10F lube chart. Posted by: "Alden" thelawdocx~xxaol.com Date: Fri May 10, 2013 5:13 pm ((PDT)) Rex, Well you certainly made me feel better with your post. After going nuts looking everywhere for 10W and then 20W, I gave up and bought 30W (non-detergent). I figured the lathe would be ok for a month before falling apart and then I would just go back to watching television. Thank you for that post. Alden ------- Re: Atlas 10F lube chart. Posted by: "Rexarino" rexarinox~xxgmail.com Date: Fri May 10, 2013 11:07 pm ((PDT)) Alden, you are precisely the sort of person that post was aimed at! It's important to realize that these lathes require lubricant, but we don't need to stop using them because we don't have the exact oil specified. Still, some prudence is called for. For instance, I would never use brake fluid or power steering fluid, and WD 40 doesn't get near any bearing in my shop, except in a last ditch effort to wash out an unusual unit in an often-unsuccessful attempt at resurrection. I prefer to wash bearings in paint thinner, then immerse them in a container of oil, but sometimes WD40 has a solvent that removes the crud. I've lubricated machinery for nearly 60 years with the oil nearest to correct for the application, and have only seen one failure from oiling bearings incorrectly -- I over-oiled a furnace blower motor and the oil fouled the contacts in the starter circuit. Dad told me to "take the motor apart and clean the points" (he was a superb auto mechanic) and so I learned another lesson that day. Enjoy the lathe, and don't worry about the TV, it will still be there when you're ready for it Rex Bosse Portland, Oregon ------- Re: Atlas 10F lube chart. Posted by: "ksierens" ksierensx~xxmsn.com Date: Sat May 11, 2013 6:38 am ((PDT)) FYI, 3-in-1 Motor oil is a 10w20 oil. ------- Re: Atlas 10F lube chart. Posted by: CaptonZapx~xxaol.com Date: Sat May 11, 2013 7:15 am ((PDT)) For those that are looking for a 10W non detergent oil, hie thee down to your Big Box Store and get a quart of air compressor oil. Almost all of them are about 10W. If you live in an industrial area, a business that sells air compressors will also have it in 5W, for use in compressors that live outside in the winter. Fork oil for motorcycles is another source, usually available in various weight from 0 to 25. Again, non detergent, so that the crud settles to the bottom. The problem there is that most of the people working at the dealership do not know much more about the oil than the part number and price, so ask one of the line mechanics that races, and he will know the differences in weight. CZ ------- Re: Atlas 10F lube chart. Posted by: "julianworks2" julian.p.67x~xxgmail.com Date: Sat May 11, 2013 2:45 pm ((PDT)) Jumping in here, and I must say I have enjoyed reading the discussions on this topic. It is my own theory that non detergent is necessary, the viscosity is more of a "preference" I would think. Too thick of an oil and it won't flow into the bearings, too thin and it will run out too quickly. I got some non detergent 20W motor oil the other week from true value. It seems to be a nice viscosity. Should do the job well. I am by no means speaking scientifically, but more practically. I am familiar with the non detergent vs detergent oil discussions as I have maintained many air compressors and power washers over the years, for both types of machines by and large I use 30W non deterg, and a comparison of that to the 20W, especially when it is cold, the 30W is way too heavy, IMO. I keep forgetting to look at the can of open gear lube I got, but after reading some of the comments here, I like the idea of motorcycle chain lube or bar and chain oil, because the lube i got is black and sticky and stains the hell out of my clothes. I know, I know...don't wear nice clothes to work! I still like to look "nice" while working. ------- Re: Atlas 10F lube chart. Posted by: "Steve Haskell" stevesbunkbedsx~xxaol.com Date: Sat May 11, 2013 9:03 pm ((PDT)) Regarding comments about keeping your hands clean, I wear nitrile gloves I purchase from "Horror Freight". I find the 5 mil gloves tear too easily and the 9 mil gloves last a long time, but the 7 mil thickness is best for me price and longevity wise. Beats getting my hands dirty or greasy. Steve Haskell ------- Re: Atlas 10F lube chart. Posted by: "Curt Wuollet" wideopen1x~xxcharter.net Date: Sat May 11, 2013 11:08 pm ((PDT)) Be really careful. Typically gloves are taboo operating machines tools. These might tear away if caught, but they might not. Regards cww ------- Re: Atlas 10F lube chart. Posted by: "Jon Elson" elsonx~xxpico-systems.com Date: Sun May 12, 2013 7:26 am ((PDT)) On 05/12/2013 01:08 AM, Curt Wuollet wrote: > Be really careful. Typically gloves are taboo operating machines tools. > These might tear away if caught, but they might not. Heavy fabric gloves can get caught in rotating machinery and rip off fingers. Light plastic-film gloves will just tear away, they don't have the strength to rip fingers off. Jon ------- Re: Atlas 10F lube chart. Posted by: "Guenther Paul" paulguenterx~xxatt.net Date: Sun May 12, 2013 7:45 am ((PDT)) I could never stand to work with any gloves unless i get a real greasy or dirty item. I will wear them just long enough to clean that's all. Got to have the feel. GP ------- SAFETY NOTE: I personally use disposable nitrile gloves only while lubing or cleaning machines while they are unplugged! For actually operating any machinery, I wear no gloves or rings or wrist watch and make sure there is no loose clothing that can come near the machine. And never forget to wear your safety glasses! Be really careful. ------- Lubricant For Gears Re: Gear Lube (was L5-152 guard cover [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: wa5cabx~xxcs.com Date: Wed Aug 7, 2013 11:51 am ((PDT)) I've been using Lubriplate white grease (330 I think) on the gears in my 3996 since the day it was new. It doesn't sling off as badly as gear oil will. Robert Downs - Houston wa5cab dot com (Web Store) MVPA 9480 ------- Re: Gear Lube (was L5-152 guard cover Posted by: "grandpa1norton" norton73commandox~xxyahoo.com Date: Wed Aug 7, 2013 2:35 pm ((PDT)) I use Lucas Red N Tacky grease on my gearing. This stuff is amazingly sticky. Stays on well even on the gears' contact areas. You can purchase at Auto Zone or Advance auto parts. ------- Re: Gear Lube (was L5-152 guard cover Posted by: "Kelly Wilson" chiselkingx~xxgmail.com Date: Wed Aug 7, 2013 8:07 pm ((PDT)) Has any body tried or know if Dow corning 111 silicone grease will work on the change gears? ------- Re: Gear Lube (was L5-152 guard cover Posted by: "Richard Hughson" richughsonx~xxgmail.com Date: Thu Aug 8, 2013 4:52 am ((PDT)) I haven't tried it but, if I'm remembering correctly, silicone doesn't have an affinity for metal like petroleum oil does. Rick H ------- Re: Gear Lube (was L5-152 guard cover Posted by: "Kelly Wilson" chiselkingx~xxgmail.com Date: Thu Aug 8, 2013 5:46 am ((PDT)) I have some 111 and thought about using it. I think you are corect. I will look into other petroleum products. Thanks for your input. ------- Re: Gear Lube (was L5-152 guard cover Posted by: "Richard Hughson" richughsonx~xxgmail.com Date: Thu Aug 8, 2013 6:09 am ((PDT)) I've been using Mobil synthetic 90w on a bunch of things lately. It makes a great cable lube on my old motorcycles. Perhaps I'll try it on the change gears too. Rick H ------- Re: Gear Lube (was L5-152 guard cover Posted by: "Doc" n8as1x~xxaol.com docn8as Date: Thu Aug 8, 2013 8:20 am ((PDT)) been using STP for 40+ years .....oil the gear train & then just a dap of STP ....it will quiet down & stay put ...still on same container. best wishes doc ------- lubrification (again) [taigtools] Posted by: "Andreas Grau" agrau31000x~xxyahoo.fr Date: Sat Aug 10, 2013 1:56 am ((PDT)) Certainly a subject that never stops to pop up, again and again. Following the advice from Taig and others, I am using a Mobil ATF 220 (automatic transmission fluid) for oiling the ways and the leadscrews. However, with a viscosity of 37, this stuff hardly holds. Especially on the Z-axis ways and leadscrew. With so many oils specially developed for ways and leadscrews, why shouldn't I choose those? A friend could supply me with oils for mills, one for horizontal, one for vertical ways, and grease made for leadscrews. Can I go wrong with them? Or if ATF is the way to go, I would love to understand why. Thanks, Andreas ------- Re: lubrification (again) Posted by: "ED MAISEY" holmes_ca_2000x~xxyahoo.com Date: Sat Aug 10, 2013 3:06 am ((PDT)) If the oil companies produce oil with a title of way oil, doesn't it say something? I have used only two oils for the last 40 years, a way oil for the ways, and a Castrol mineralube SAE 10 straight for spindles, I use way oil on my Taig machines with no damage as of yet; production manufacturing may demand something other but I fail to see any damage within the hobby world. just my two pennies worth, Edmund ------- Re: lubrification (again) Posted by: "Max Cato" maxsthekatx~xxyahoo.com Date: Sat Aug 10, 2013 2:57 pm ((PDT)) I tried both transmission fluid and straight 10-30 oil on my Taig for the leadscrews. Then, I found that way oil (Vactra 2) seemed to work the best. I've been using it ever since -- works really well. ------- Re: lubrification (again) Posted by: "WAM" ajawam2x~xxcomcast.net Date: Sat Aug 10, 2013 8:47 pm ((PDT)) Yea.. that stuff is great. Use it and Vactra 4 on all my machines. http://www.mobil.com/USA-English/Lubes/PDS/GLXXENINDMOMobil_Vac tra_Oil_Numbered_Series.aspx ------- Re: lubrification (again) Posted by: "Jeffrey Birt" birt_jx~xxsoigeneris.com Date: Sun Aug 11, 2013 8:12 am ((PDT)) The recommendation to use ATF makes sense I think, it works very well and you can buy it anywhere. For folks who live in less populated areas it can be hard to find way oil. The low viscosity of ATF can also be helpful. I like to lubricate my mill before starting for the day, then run my exercise program (runs all three axis lock to lock). This tends to push any gunk/dirt to the ends of the screws where it can be easily wiped up. It is was really gunky I'll repeat the process. This does not take much time and keeps things clean. I've not used my mill for several days now but there is still a light glazing of ATF on all the surfaces. A light duty way oil can be used. You do not want a really thick oil designed for heavy equipment though. You also do not want to use any grease. Heavy/sticky oil and grease just act like glue and hold in all the dirt and swarf. Jeff Birt Soigeneris.com ------- Re: lubrification (again) Posted by: "WAM" ajawam2x~xxcomcast.net Date: Sun Aug 11, 2013 9:22 am ((PDT)) I use the Vactra 4 on the mill's Z since it runs down a bit slower... I use way covers on all my stuff, was never really into swarf falling into sliding surfaces... http://home.comcast.net/~ajawam3/swarf/swarf.htm ------- dfm(again) Lubrication Posted by: "DennisF MacIntyre" a1g2r3ix~xxyahoo.ca Date: Mon Aug 12, 2013 5:33 am ((PDT)) Dear Group 2013/08/12 07:14 EST Niagara Peninsula While working as an oilier for industry I used to get calls to two machine shops On the main floor the lathes and mills took ISO 68 hydraulic oil for the spindle heads and ISO 68 way oil for the ways. On the upper floor the machine / pattern shop machines got ISO 32 hydraulic oil for the spindle heads and 32 ISO way oils for the ways. Same types of machines and all that Go Figure! One day we (oilers) got a call to lube some new machines. Experience told us 220 oil (I forget if that was gear or way oil. When we read the sign we were blown away in shock! ISO 10 spindle oil; I used to refer this hydraulic oil as sowing machine oil as it was so thin feeling, though officially it did not have that designation. Apparently it was used to lubricate some type of air bearing where air under pressure as well as some oil was used to keep the extreamely fast spinning bearing apart. On the production machines we used to see the same sort of things, in that one department would use, for spindle heads that looked the same as spindle heads in other departments, but would use different grades of hyd. (hydraulic) oil. All the way from using Iso 10, iso 32, Iso 46 or iso 68 hydraulic oil. The ways would usually get ISO 68 other than in the pattern shop as mentioned before. Some of the washing machines that were as big as a small garage or two would take a 220 way oil. Trani oil? Well, as well as detergents, it probably has stuff in it that keeps dirt in suspension that will wash the dirt off of parts that rub together. I do not see it as having the same sort of stick-um or tackiness of a way oil that can better separate metal parts that rub together though. I wonder if using I.S.O. 32 way oil with a small pump would be enough to flush dirt away towards a gathering sump and filters before re-use. In industry, I believe the way oil was just a one way use thing though. The plant used to take away a couple tanker trucks per day of used liquids for professional re-processing. It would be interesting to get an engineer's take, one who had specialized in oils, on this. I have noticed different oils used on the same sort of thing, i.e Yale fork-lift trucks, gear oil in their differentials, while Clarks use ATF. Go Figure. Is it just to meet the criteria demanded of/by the seals they use or were special seals used to be able to use the different lubricants for other reasons relating to their lubrication qualities. Also, in which gear case would a magnet in the drain plug pick up more such ferrous compounds as wear occurs? The A.T.F or the gear oil? keep smiling dennis mac aka (at work i answered my radio calls "oil can dennis" in an earlier time/life as a young 11 to 16 yr old teenager milk-man's helper I used to call out MILKMAN when the bottles were not put out. ------- Maintenance spray [myfordlathes] Posted by: "malc395x~xxbtinternet.com" Date: Sat Sep 21, 2013 8:07 am ((PDT)) I would like to let everyone know that I have just come across a couple of maintenance sprays that leave a thin layer of oily protection after drying (it doesn't actually dry as such). One is Asda maintenance spray & the other is Wilko maintenance spray; they are both quite well priced compared to some maintenance sprays & are better in my view. They are ideal at keeping moisture off of metal if you have damp or condensation in your workshop. I've got no idea what the lubricating performance is like though, I just spray it on my machines to keep them bright. Hope this is some help to you all. ------- Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2013 23:48:07 -0500 From: Jesse Walker Subject: [OldTools] Lost my marbles / tribology question Learn from my mistake: Galations 6:7 ... "a man reaps what he sows." Numbers 32:23, "...be sure your sin will find you out." These verses can be applied in non-religious contexts. Don't leave an open container where it can be knocked over. Don't leave sharp objects where they can be stepped on. Don't give Murphy a chance! Be sure your laziness and absent-minded decisions will get the best of you. Your stupid shortcuts will bite you. If you take apart a ball bearing, take time to put the balls in a container, preferably lidded. I had fun tonight searching for the 16 balls from the thrust bearing in a 12" Yankee 2100 because I thought putting them on a paper towel was good enough for temporary storage. I just had to grab the cleanest paper towel on the workbench to wipe off a part. Also, keep your shop clean. Time saved not cleaning won't make up for the time lost searching for dropped parts. Question: What's the best oil for braces and drills? I've been using the Southbend Lathe "Type A" oil recommendation, ISO 20 #10 spindle oil for all of my braces and hand drills. Thanks, Jesse ------- Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2013 12:17:56 -0400 From: John Ruth Subject: RE: [OldTools] Lost my marbles / tribology question Jesse, This is very timely, coming as it does in an era in which everyone seems to be trying to "multitask". There's a well-known poem with lines like "I have killed more people than all wars combined"...... Who am I? CARELESSNESS." Spindle oils, also called DTE (Dynamo, Turbine, and Engine) oils are very suitable for lubricating tools as they have no additives that could gum up the works. The "Engine" in DTE refers to engines with open-ended lube systems like steam engines and the oil cups on make-and-break engines. This is a totally different application from Automobile Engine Oil. If you must just auto engine oil on tools, be sure to get the NON-DETERGENT type. Even that should not be used in applications with felt or cloth oil wicks. ISO 20 is a very light spindle oil. "DTE Light" is ISO 32. See: http://www.mobil.com/USA-English/Lubes/PDS/GLXXENINDMOMobil_DTE_Named.aspx So, you might be happier with a heavier grade, but on the other hand, I don't think it really matters on hand tools as long as you keep them oiled. Brace ratchets, notably the 2100 series, seem to be greased at the factory. I can't say would be optimum -- I have a tin of war surplus marked "Grease, Rifle" that has served satisfactorily. But, then again, I do not use my braces more than about once a month. John Ruth ------- Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2013 15:06:37 -0400 From: John Ruth Subject: RE: [OldTools] Lost my marbles / tribology question GG's: Forgot to mention that "Tractor Hydraulic Oil" from Tractor Supply (Among many others) is a good semblance to DTE oil. IIRC it's ISO 32. It's essentially DTE with an antifoaming additive. John Ruth ------- Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2013 12:14:48 -0700 From: James Thompson Subject: Re: [OldTools] Lost my marbles / tribology question Sorry, but I gotta ask... What is the problem with good high quality motor oil? I have been using it on everything metal like forever with no problems that I can see. ------- Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2013 15:26:03 -0400 From: John Ruth Subject: RE: [OldTools] Lost my marbles / tribology question Jim, If it works, it works. You will find that detergent motor oil will have a strong tendency to clog up felt or cotton oiling wicks, in those pieces of equipment that have such wicks. Non-detergent oil does this to a lesser degree. I find the DTE least likely to gum anything up. If you are getting good results, don't change! I like to keep an oil can of DTE handy and use that for many different things. YMMV. John Ruth ------- Date: Sun, 12 Jan 2014 12:17:35 +0000 From: Mark Fortune Subject: [OldTools] Grimshaw's Coconut oil While we were back on saws, I read in Grimshaws book that he recommends coconut oil on saws and claims you can even dip the saw in sea water without worrying about rust. If it's so good why don't we use this on all our tools and is there anyone out there using coconut oil? I do know it has a very low melt point but sadly that will probably never be a factor here in Ireland. I have a good stock of extra virgin coconut oil, if no one else has tried and tested it then I think its time I conducted a little experiment. I opened up a drawer today and found a tenon saw that I filed for a friend a few months back. I had obviously forgotten to clean the filings off the saw plate and the rust was something terrible, good lesson. ------- Date: Sun, 12 Jan 2014 04:50:33 -0800 From: "bransonx~xxcwnet.com" Subject: [OldTools] Grimshaw's Coconut oil I'll be waiting for the results of your little experiment since I don't know off hand where to find any coconut oil, virgin or sadder-but-wiser. Sperm oil used to be the thing, and one of its advantages was its low melting point. Jojoba oil has many of the same properties, but the cost. On the hard won experience of a fellow who works in an open shop around 200 yards from the ocean, I started using mineral oil with good results. Not so much for saws, since I regularly rub them down with bee's wax. Keeping a lump of bee's wax in the tool chest is a trick I learned from a crusty ancient carpenter, and it really aids the saws to slide through the wood. Mike in Sacto ------- Date: Sun, 12 Jan 2014 08:32:55 -0500 From: "Cliff Rohrabacher Esq." Subject: Re: [OldTools] Grimshaw's Coconut oil Most plant and animal oils have pH issues that make them less than ideal choices for application where corrosion is an issue, plus there's the problem of them going rancid. ------- Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2014 09:36:42 -0500 From: Charlie Rodgers Subject: Re: [OldTools] Grimshaw's Coconut oil Mike wrote: > I'll be waiting for the results of your little experiment since > I don't know off hand where to find any coconut oil, virgin or > sadder-but-wiser. My wife bought 2 or 3 ~1 gallon plastic jars of it at the local Costco (members-only big box retailer, Jeff). Dunno about its efficacy as a rust preventive/inhibitor but it sure makes good almond butter cookies and yeah, they have the almond butter too. Charlie Rodgers Clinton, Maryland - this reminds me, time to make more cookies ------- Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2014 03:43:44 -0800 From: "bransonx~xxcwnet.com" Subject: Re: [OldTools] Grimshaw's Coconut oil > Never tried it, but Lie-Nielsen recommends and sells something called > jojoba oil. Apparently jojoba oil possesses all, or almost all the virtues of Sperm oil as a lubricant and rust inhibitor. Sperm oil was issued by the quart to artificers, both in the smith's tools and stores and in the carriage maker's tools and stores throughout the 19th Century and into the 20th. US arsenals required weapons kept in storage to be wiped down with it for protection against oxidation. Early army instructions for the maintenance of the 1911 Colt include using Sperm oil as a lubricant and rust inhibitor. It used to be an important ingredient in transmission oils, and was essential to watch and clock makers. Neither Sperm oil nor jojoba oil are actually oils. Technically, both are waxes that remain liquid over an amazingly wide range of temperatures, well under freezing to hot enough to fry an egg. But the cost! Having to fill two one quart cans with "Sperm oil" to complete the stores and tools for the artificers' tool chests, the cost was prohibitive. The Nye company, which was the major producer of Sperm oil for decades, now make a synthetic that they market as Nye Oil. It also comes close to the original, and it ain't cheap either. Mike in Sacto ------- Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2014 08:16:44 -0500 From: "Cliff Rohrabacher Esq." Subject: Re: [OldTools] Rancid Coconut Oil ( was Grimshaw's Coconut oil) On 1/14/2014 12:27 AM, Tony Blanks wrote: > doesn't go rancid as other oils do because it's a nut oil not a > vegetable oil Walnut oil goes rancid. Normally it goes rancid very quickly. The only oil that won't spoil is petroleum oil because it's aseptic. You'll never see mold on low molecular weight mineral oil or it's pasty cousin high molecular weight mineral oil (petroleum jelly) because they are asceptic lacking the necessary components to support life. The factor that may have led to some kind of recent mythology around nut oils about a resistance to rancidity is the newer refining method for walnut oil that uses an alkaline process that makes it more resistant to going rancid, but is not any kind of permanent proof against spoilage. All plant oils go rancid. The so called algae in fuel oil and diesel is not algae at all but is decomposition material and composed of waxes and tars that combined form a gooey greasy sludge that many people think of as some kind of growth. But it's not, it's just crap from the oil. It is possible for mold to grow on organic matter contaminating the oil but usually the fuel oil is too clean for that and the organic material would need to be substantial in volume. If you want an oil that won't spoil and is good for food contact items, use mineral oil. ------- lubrication for reassembly [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: rosslathex~xxyahoo.com Date: Fri Jan 31, 2014 9:58 am ((PST)) I am proceeding with the rebuild of the boat lathe mk2 craftsman 21200 -- so far wire brush and engine brite with toothbrush and then acetone for prep to paint. Kroil or wd40 to break things loose. Drive pins shattered so will have to drill them out. That is the follow up on prev questions. So the questions. What lube do I use as I put the gears and the headstock and carriage back together? I want to keep things 'clean'. Have used spray-on teflon but seems like more is needed. 'White grease' whatever that is? And one more question -- the spacer behind the 64t crossfeed shaft gear does not want to come off -- does it need to? I look at the gearsette instructions and they all seem to have the spacer in place as is. And one more question -- what are the minimum gears needed for some basic thread pitches beyond the two 64t and the 48 and 24 and 20 that come with the lathe??? thanks Jim ------- Re: lubrication for reassembly Posted by: wa5cabx~xxcs.com wa5cab Date: Fri Jan 31, 2014 10:44 am ((PST)) Jim, You basically cannot keep everything "clean" unless you don't plan to use the machine. Clean and properly lubricated tend to be mutually exclusive. On the open gear teeth, I have used Lubriplate white grease on my 3996 for the past 32 years and see no reason to change. Some here will agree. Some prefer one of the open chain lubricants which are closer to an oil but still tacky ("chain" refers to things like motorcycle drive chains, NOT chainsaw chains). The remainder may recommend something else. Whatever you use, close the gear cover after you apply it before running the lathe for at least the first few minutes. Some will sling off. Everywhere else, use non-detergent SAE 20 unless the temperature in your shop stays below about 45F, then SAE 10. I actually use an oil specifically identified as "Way Oil" on the ways, but SAE 20 will work OK. Depending upon where you live, you may have to buy the SAE 20 under the equivalent ISO number which if I recall correctly is around 62. I bought my current supply from Enco but have since discovered that the local machine tool supplier I sometimes buy from stocks it. Buy a gallon and it will be a long time before you need more. There is a lubrication chart in the manual. The cross feed shaft is in the carriage and has nothing to do with the change gears. Are you talking about the spacer M6-165 behind the 64T screw gear on the lead screw? Or the collar behind the spacer? According to the parts list drawing, the collar comes with the lead screw (feed screw) so I would say no. It doesn't need to come off. The spacer should just slide off. Sometimes it sits behind the gear (as shown on the illustrated parts list drawing) and sometimes in front. I can't answer your gear question as I don't know what you might consider as basic. You will have to look at the threading and feeds setting chart in the manual. Which I assume that you either have a hard copy of or you downloaded from either the 618 or the Atlas_Craftsman Group Files section. The Craftsman 101.21200 is the same machine so either manual will work. Robert Downs - Houston wa5cab dot com (Web Store) MVPA 9480 ------- Cutting Oil dispenser [TAIGTOOLS] Posted by: Donx~xxCampbell-Gemstones.com campgems Date: Wed Mar 19, 2014 12:21 pm ((PDT)) I've been grumbling about not having a way to apply cutting oil to the mill when it is running. Yesterday, I ran across a box of CA glue applicators I've had for several years. Little plastic pipettes. They have a very fine soft plastic tip and other than being a pain to fill, they really work great for putting a micro dot of cutting fluid right where you want it and If you happen to tangle with the running mill or drill no harm is done. I picked mine up at a local hobby shop that was going out of business. The only ones I could find on the web were on Ebay. If you have a local hobby shop, they may have them in stock. They work with the thinner fluids, but the thicker ones make for a difficult time loading the bulb.For what it's worth, they didn't work well for CA though, the thin stuff would run out as soon as you turned the tip down, and the thick CA wouldn't load into it. I was using mine with A-9 Aluminum Cutting fluid and it worked great. I could lay down a bead of fluid on a 1/8" wide stock 4" long without any running down the side of the stock. Don ------- Re: Cutting Oil dispenser Posted by: "Gerrit Visser" gerrit-mlx~xxpsgv.ca Date: Wed Mar 19, 2014 2:04 pm ((PDT)) Here is a set with slightly larger openings. I use them for measuring paint for spraying models. http://www.amazon.com/Plastic-Transfer-Pipettes-Gradulated-Pa ck/dp/B005IQTSE0 Forgot to say in my reply: Great idea to use these for depositing cutting fluid. ------- Re: Cutting Oil dispenser Posted by: "Ken Cline" clinex~xxfrii.com Date: Wed Mar 19, 2014 2:21 pm ((PDT)) I use flux brushes and a small glass jar with a little cutting oil. The brushes don't much mind rubbing against sharp edges, and when they eventually get cut too short I just grab a replacement from the pack of 50. ------- Re: Cutting Oil dispenser Posted by: "James Riser" jriserx~xxJamesRiser.com Date: Wed Mar 19, 2014 9:21 pm ((PDT)) I set up a gravity drip system on my Taig mill as shown at the bottom of my Taig mill web page. Works great and is simple/reliable. Jim ------- Re: Atlas 10F lube chart. [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: kbx~xxmuziker.org kbjorling Date: Wed Oct 29, 2014 3:08 pm ((PDT)) This discussion is now a year and a half old, so maybe my contribution is no longer needed, or maybe the information has been provided elsewhere, but: Several of the respondents mention difficulty in obtaining SAE#20 machine oil (non-detergent). Those who could find it, had difficulty getting it in containers that weren't either too large (drums) or too small (3-in-1 cans) or at affordable prices. Yesterday, while searching for Carter Open Gear Grease (the alternative/ successor to Atlas's recommended Keystone #122) I found the following: https://www.applied.com/apps/commerce/catalog/catalog.do?e=7 Here are listed two grades of SAE#20 - one for bearings and ways and the other a general machine oil. Both are available in 2lb bottle, 7lb. (1 gal.) jug, and larger sizes, for prices that seem reasonable to me. I found the site difficult to navigate. Products didn't turn up in the categories or groups where I expected them to be. (I only found the Carter OGL via a Google search. when I browsed the site for similar products, the Carter did not show up at all - not, at least, where I would expect it to be. But it's there: https://www.applied.com/apps/commerce/catalog/catalog.do?e=10&s=38 38091&r=0&type=a&mp=CARTER I hope this is useful to somebody. If this is not the kind of oil that you all were looking for, please let me know. I have already ordered the #20 and #10 (and the Carter OGL) - I hope I've ordered something useful! Kurt B. ------- Re: Atlas 10F lube chart. Posted by: bobyouhx~xxgmail.com byouhx~xxbellsouth.net Date: Thu Oct 30, 2014 8:03 am ((PDT)) I'm glad that you opened it back up. I will be using SuperLube multi purpose Synthetic grease for my counter shaft bearings I have used it in a varied assortment of equipment and like the fact that is stays put and does not run like some greases where oils leave the soap/thickener. It is a very stable grease IMHO. I will be using Chevron GST32 or the Cetus Turbine oil for all of the 10W applications I E-Mailed tech support at Chevron and got the following reply. I have immediate access to the GST32 the Cetus I may have to find if I wish to go synthetic. "GST 32 (mineral) or Cetus HiPersyn 32 (synthetic) are both considered non-detergent oils & would work for application. ISO 32 is equivalent to 10W." Thanks Clay Taylor Lubetek Engineer" Just my thoughts, Bob ------- Re: Atlas 10F lube chart. Posted by: "Kevin Gibson" k3030aix~xxyahoo.com Date: Thu Oct 30, 2014 9:42 am ((PDT)) FWIW I found SAE 10 oil on the shelf at Tractor Supply (see link below) Looking at the design of the Atlas lathes, I don't see much that can go wrong related to oils. The worry over detergent oils, I honestly don't see it in relation to the common Atlas lathes. I hear people saying a detergent oil will cause deposits of old metal shavings to be recirculated into gears and bearings, but that doesn't make any sense at all considering the design of the Atlas lathes. I could see where that could happen with lathes that actually have a sump full of oil, but my TH42 doesn't have a sump for re-circulation, and I don't think other Atlas lathes do either (experts, chime in here and correct me if I'm wrong). The nature of oil, I mean why we use oil instead of a grease is the "washing" property of soaking, but then running off. It cools, lubricates, and cleans all in one. Oil will take deposits of dust or fine metal shavings and flow such debris away from the working parts; again, that's why we use oil instead of grease. In places where we don't need that action of carrying debris away from the working parts, we often use grease. My TH42 has Timkin bearings and an oil cup. The oil is wicked from the cup into the bearings and eventually runs out, there's no pooling going on, nor is there any place where oil is recirculated through the bearings. So the oil is essentially one use. Therefore you should be able to use most any off the shelf motor oil and be just fine. If there wasn't a Tractor Supply close by with the SAE 10 readily available, or MSC Direct just up the road and I was in a pinch, then I'd just get something like a 5w-30 and call it good. You have to remember, the manual recommends SAE 10 because there wasn't a great deal of oils to choose from when they first made the manual. As the years went by, they never bothered to change or upgrade the oil recommendation because SAE 10 did a great job. SAE 10 is thick and viscous and does a good job of lubricating and preserving. Furthermore a non- detergent oil recommendation is consistent with, and safe to use with most all machinery. Any oil is better than no oil. I will always recommend what the manufacturer recommends, and if it's readily available then there's no reason not to. But if you're in a pinch and you have the choice of no oil, or using common motor oil, then use the common motor oil and don't lose any sleep. Just my .02 on the matter. Traveller® Non-Detergent SAE10, 2 gal. - Tractor Supply Co.Motor Oil SAE Viscosity : SAE 10 API Service Rating : SA View on www.tractorsupply.com ------- Re: Atlas 10F lube chart. Posted by: wa5cabx~xxcs.com wa5cab Date: Thu Oct 30, 2014 2:15 pm ((PDT)) Bob, At some point possibly as early as 1950 (in the 12" QCGB instructions), Atlas changed the oil viscosity recommendation from SAE 10 (ISO 32) to SAE 20 (ISO 64). In the MOLO [Atlas Manual Of Lathe Operations], it changed with the 16th Edition of 1955 except for one place in the text. This was corrected in 1961. Robert Downs - Houston wa5cab dot com (Web Store) MVPA 9480 ------- Re: Atlas 10F lube chart. Posted by: bobyouhx~xxgmail.com byouhx~xxbellsouth.net Date: Thu Oct 30, 2014 2:48 pm ((PDT)) Thanks for the update. I would feel better with an SAE 20W I also have access to GST 68 if it is the same as Shell Turbo 68 it is also an SAE 20W. Originally I was just going to use 0W-20 Pennzoil Synthetic; it is a detergent oil but as others have posted, since it just runs out with the exception of the small quantity that remains in base the Head stock bearing housings, I do not see a big issue. Bob ------- Re: Atlas 10F lube chart. Posted by: wa5cabx~xxcs.com wa5cab Date: Thu Oct 30, 2014 5:09 pm ((PDT)) Kevin, See my previous on the subject of viscosity. Atlas, later changed name to Clausing, has recommended SAE 20 for about the past 60+ years, not SAE 10. The reason for not using high detergent motor oils has nothing to do with sumps or recirculation. HD oils are hygroscopic (they scavenge or absorb water). This is either no problem or good in an IC engine running at temperatures around 170-180 deg. F as the water eventually goes out the tailpipe. But in environments with high relative humidity and relatively large temperature excursions, it causes rust on unpainted surfaces. Robert Downs - Houston wa5cab dot com (Web Store) MVPA 9480 ------- Re: spindle bearings - craftsman 109.20630 [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: wa5cabx~xxcs.com wa5cab Date: Thu Apr 30, 2015 10:54 pm ((PDT)) In a message dated 04/30/2015, atlas_craftsmanx~xxyahoogroups.com writes: > Hi, I have begun to put back together my new old lathe and being new to the whole process I was hoping to ask some questions. I am about to put the spindle back in and wondering what kind of lubricant to use. The only thing I can find in the manual mentions light quality oil. It looks like there is grease on the spindle but I notice the oil cups so i am not sure what to use. Any advise would be great. Thanks Matt. < Matt, Do NOT assemble the headstock with grease on the spindle bearings. It will almost certainly plug up the oil cup outlets and the only way to lube the bearings will be to remove the spindle again. Grease on the spindle may have come from the back gears, as that is what should be used on them. On the spindle (and everywhere else except maybe the ways, use straight SAE 20 non-detergent mineral oil. That has gotten hard to find marked SAE 20 in most parts of the country. I use Mobile DTE Circulating Oil Heavy Medium ISO 68. This is equivalent to SAE 20. For the ways, use either that or Way Oil SAE 20 or ISO 65 to 68. Robert Downs - Houston wa5cab dot com (Web Store) MVPA 9480 [and in a later message] Also Oops. However, the Atlas recomendation also applied to babbit bearing headstocks and the sleeve bearing 101.07301 so should be suitable for a sleeve bearing AA. ------- Re: spindle bearings - craftsman 109.20630 Posted by: osrixx~xxlive.co.uk osrix25 Date: Fri May 1, 2015 3:11 am ((PDT)) I echo what Robert says about not rebuilding with grease, when I received mine the oil wasn't dropping on one of the oil cups, after the strip down I saw that the bearings had both been packed with grease! I've now rebuilt and used Graphogen http://www.graphogen.co.uk/ for the initial lubrication (recommended by a friend who rebuilds engines) which disipates over time leaving a thin layer of graphite on the rollers. Attached is a beautiful copy of the lubrication chart for the 10". I've had it printed A3 and laminated for the wall. A nice thing to look at and actually rather useful. Ben https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/atlas_craftsman/attachments/226639375 10F lubrication chart.pdf ------- Re: spindle bearings - craftsman 109.20630 Posted by: shawneliason79x~xxyahoo.com shawneliason79 Date: Fri May 1, 2015 4:37 am ((PDT)) I use a combination of compressor or turbine oil and antisieze.. nickel and copper. It makes a real Purdy mix that looks like pearlescent paint. A trick an old guy told me about from when he was young. He partnered up with a guy and was selling it at car shows... then tried to sell it to General Motors. Tthey told him "no way,we don't want our motors to last too long!" And explained how they collect more in selling parts than in new vehicles every year. I've put it in everything from motorcycles to Chevrolet trucks, lawn mowers and compressors. It smooths everything out! ------- Re: spindle bearings - craftsman 109.20630 Posted by: "David Hair" thehairsx~xxoptilink.us dhlh1984 Date: Fri May 1, 2015 5:37 am ((PDT)) Matt, On a older machine that has old oil in the bushing I use 3 in 1 oil for the first few times. Being a lighter oil it will help clean the bushing. After using 3 to 5 hours then I would suggest you then go to a 30W oil. If you look around you can find it for lawn mowers that doesn't have detergents in the oil. David Hair ------- Re: spindle bearings - craftsman 109.20630 Posted by: david.deboizex~xxverizon.net inspiro_creo Date: Fri May 1, 2015 8:53 am ((PDT)) Very interesting idea. What is the ratio mix? Do you have to use both nickle and copper antisieze? Or either or? Thanks ------- Re: spindle bearings - craftsman 109.20630 Posted by: shawneliason79x~xxyahoo.com shawneliason79 Date: Fri May 1, 2015 10:30 am ((PDT)) Well since my first, well written reply didn't load. I'll just keep it short... as for the ratio... I just wing it. And I've used just nickel too... the copper can be hard to find. ------- Re: spindle bearings - craftsman 109.20630 Posted by: "Jay Greer" redwitch1x~xxearthlink.net jaygreer65 Date: Fri May 1, 2015 9:48 am ((PDT)) I use turbine oil that I get at Ace Hardware. I got the tip from a friend that has a machine shop. Jay Greer ------- Re: spindle bearings - craftsman 109.20630 Posted by: "James Irwin" jirwin1x~xxaustin.rr.com jimirwin2001 Date: Fri May 1, 2015 9:54 am ((PDT)) That¹s called Zoom Spout Turbine Oil. I use it, too. Comes in a small bottle with a long plastic tube that extends. Therefore a zoom spout. Good stuff. Jim Irwin ------- Re: spindle bearings - craftsman 109.20630 Posted by: "Whit" WhitPUSMCx~xxaol.com w.philbrick Date: Fri May 1, 2015 10:17 am ((PDT)) What is the concern over the detergent? Whit ------- Re: spindle bearings - craftsman 109.20630 Posted by: wa5cabx~xxcs.com wa5cab Date: Fri May 1, 2015 12:04 pm ((PDT)) One of the properties (not usually mentioned in ads) of the detergents is that the oil absorbs water from the atmosphere and holds it in emulsion until it is boiled off and untimately ejected in the exhaust stream (or trapped by filters). A lathe (or other machine tool) should never get hot enough to lose the water. Particularly with machines in only occassional use, the trapped moisture will promote corrosion on both exposed and hidden (like the spindle bearings) parts. Robert Downs - Houston wa5cab dot com (Web Store) MVPA 9480 ------- Re: spindle bearings - craftsman 109.20630 Posted by: jmartin957x~xxaol.com jmartin957 Date: Fri May 1, 2015 2:24 pm ((PDT)) It has always been my understanding that the primary reason for avoiding detergent oils in machine tools is that unless there is a filter in the system the detergent will dissolve any crud in the system and pass it through the bearings. There is no sump in the Atlas tools that I am aware of, and thus no deposits to worry about stirring up. The Atlas systems are total loss. If a detergent oil dissolves (suspends) any deposits that might be in a Gits oiler and runs them through the bearing, who cares? They'll be gone after they pass through the bearing for the first time. And, they are not deposits that were generated by wear in bearings to begin with -- deposits with harmful metal particles in them. I have a Standard Modern gear head lathe, with a sizable sump in the headstock and another in the apron. The oil in the headstock circulates constantly through the bearings. There, I make sure to use a non-detergent oil. Any crud that builds up in the sump is cleaned out when the oil is changed. So for the Atlas machines I don't think it really matters whether you use a detergent or non-detergent oil, but would lean towards the detergent. Just my two cents, John ------- Re: spindle bearings - craftsman 109.20630 Posted by: "Thomas Powell" tpmurconx~xxyahoo.com tpmurcon Date: Fri May 1, 2015 3:03 pm ((PDT)) Matt, You should use 5w30 motor oil in the oiler cups and wipers. It has the proper viscosity for the ways. The horizontal or vertical pulley assembly grease cups use plain axle grease. On ALL Gears use LUBRIPLATE white grease, Do NOT USE A THICK GREASE. All this does is provide a place for dirt and chips to build and wear out zamak gears. I think you will find the machine especially the back gears will run much quieter. All these things can be found at the local automotive store. Since you're just starting to put the lathe back together be sure to remember to lube ALL setscrews. Don't let anyone tell you you need to use vactra oil of any kind. The Atlas/Chraftsman lathe was built to be accurate, productive, versatile and most importantly inexpensive to operate and maintain. All these things I use on my 10f TH54 and I have never had any problems. Remember the Atlas lathe should be lubricated before doing any and every job. If you do this you will find the machine more accurate and it will last for many more years. In this trade a little time maintaining now will go a long way in the future. I hope I helped you, I know it is a whole lot long winded but it is the truth. Tomps: Anything more I can do to help please do not hesitate to ask. ------- Re: spindle bearings - craftsman 109.20630 Posted by: wa5cabx~xxcs.com wa5cab Date: Fri May 1, 2015 3:13 pm ((PDT)) In a message dated 05/01/2015 > Ah, so is Marvel Mystery oil or 3 and 1 oil ok? Whit I don't know what the viscosity of Marvel Mystery Oil is but I expect it may be thin. The standard 3 IN 1 oil is SAE 10. They do package SAE 20 in the same size can but in the volume you will need if you use the lathe much, it would be quite expensive. Just buy a gallon of the Mobil Circulating Oil and you'll probably be OK for 3 or 4 years. Enco carries it. So should any machine tool supply house. Robert & Susan Downs - Houston wa5cab dot com (Web Store) MVPA 9480 ------- Re: spindle bearings - craftsman 109.20630 Posted by: "Jerrold Tiers" jerdalx~xxsbcglobal.net jtiers Date: Fri May 1, 2015 3:37 pm ((PDT)) I'm having trouble thinking of anything significantly WORSE than this idea... Use some good oil, then fill it up with a bunch of particulates. Right... good plan.... NOT. You can do it. It's YOUR stuff it'll be in. I'll pass, thank you very much. I don't want miscellaneous particulate metals in my bearings at all. Not even "Neverseez". Jerry ------- Gear lube for 12" lathe [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: taigx~xxste-marie.org pstemari Date: Tue May 26, 2015 9:47 am ((PDT)) I just bought a new-to-me Craftsman/Atlas 101.28940 12" lathe, and I'm looking for the right lube for the gears. I have Vaculine on hand for the ways, and I'm ordering some Mobil ISO68/SAE20 machine oil for the oil cups, but the gears have me stumped. They appear to have a moly grease on them now. Candidates I'm looking at are Lubriplate 1200-2 General Purpose grease Lubriplate 1242 Extreme Pressure grease Lubriplate 3000 Moly grease Mobil XHP 222 Mobilgrease CM-P Mobil 1 Synthetic grease Mobillith SHC 220 Mobil SHC 630 ISO220/SAE50 Synthetic gear oil SuperLube Thoughts? ------- Re: Gear lube for 12" lathe Posted by: "Lance Eggleston" gbofx~xxverizon.net crashbone256 Date: Tue May 26, 2015 10:03 am ((PDT)) I use 50/50 STP / non-detergent 30 weight and paint it on the gears. The STP keeps it sticky. Keep the gear train covered from swarf. L ------- Re: Gear lube for 12" lathe Posted by: shawneliason79x~xxyahoo.com shawneliason79 Date: Tue May 26, 2015 5:26 pm ((PDT)) I use anything that even remotely resembles a lubricant.... butter, Vaseline, crisco, solidified bacon fat... mmmmmm smells good. 3 in 1, motor oil. let's be realistic here... oil is oil is oil is oil... oh yeah... and guess what..... it's oil.. as long as it has something!! Does it really matter if it's this weight, that weight, detergent or non... from the dollar store, out of my neighbors garage or straight out of the refinery as long as it's clean oil! It's not like it's going in a high performance race engine or a spherical him joint on the space shuttle!! And I already know.. the naysayers are going to have lots of I'm put here but I'll tell you what... TALK.. is talk.. doing is doing... so go on all of you theoretical physicists.. go on and hypothesize the world around you to no end.. while you're all toiling away at the keyboard because you're too saddened and discouraged to to perform any work in your so called shop due to the overwhelming mess or inadequacies in capability... and I'll keep working away actually making things without worry of insignificant details such as the proper viscosity of the lubricant I'm putting on that hole.. because you know what?....I'm putting it in anyway! ------- Re: Gear lube for 12" lathe Posted by: "Lance Eggleston" gbofx~xxverizon.net crashbone256 Date: Tue May 26, 2015 5:36 pm ((PDT)) Feel better NOW ? L ------- Re: Gear lube for 12" lathe Posted by: shawneliason79x~xxyahoo.com shawneliason79 Date: Tue May 26, 2015 6:26 pm ((PDT)) Ahhh.. yes.. obvious vent. I know.. :) ------- Re: Gear lube for 12" lathe Posted by: "Scott Henion" shenionx~xxshdesigns.org shdesigns2003 Date: Tue May 26, 2015 5:39 pm ((PDT)) I agree, almost anything will work these days. Oil is much better than when these lathes were made. Give things a try. I experimented with: Lubraplate = quiet, stayed on, attracted chips, expensive. Molydynum greas (Raybestor brake grease) = same as Lubraplate. 90/140 Gear oil = worked ok, dripped or flew off Motorcycle chain wax - stayed on, ran quiet but a real sticky mess to change gears. I settled on chain saw bar and chain oil. It stays on but does drip off a bit. Chips don't stick (they come out the back of the spindle). Main thing is when changing gears, I just wipe them off and they are clean and not sticky. The gears are quiet. Try things, see what you like. If you don't see the oil turning black from aluminum wear, then it is fine. Scott G. Henion, Stone Mountain, GA Craftsman 12x36 lathe: http://shdesigns.org/Craftsman12x36 Welding pages and homemade welder: http://shdesigns.org/Welding ------- Lubrication [atlas618lathe] Posted by: ljbellingerx~xxgmail.com lbuddy69 Date: Mon Aug 3, 2015 6:55 pm ((PDT)) So what do we like for oil, not sure I ever see 20wt oil in the auto stores. How about detergent vs non detergent? Thanks ------- Re: Lubrication Posted by: "David Hair" thehairsx~xxoptilink.us dhlh1984 Date: Mon Aug 3, 2015 7:08 pm ((PDT)) You can often find 20 wt oil in the lawn and garden department of places like Ace Hardware. D.Hair ------- Re: Lubrication Posted by: egpacex~xxhotmail.com egpace Date: Tue Aug 4, 2015 9:16 am ((PDT)) Lee, I settled on Mobile Vactra # 2 way oil for sliding surfaces and Mobile Velocite # 10 for the spindle and everything else. There's a few sellers on ebay that sell pint & half pint containers at reasonable prices. I use them on my other lathes and mills. Cheers, Ed ------- Re: Lubrication Posted by: "Robert Downs" wa5cabx~xxcomcast.net wa5cab Date: Tue Aug 4, 2015 9:57 am ((PDT)) You can also buy it by the gallon from places like Enco. It will probably be listed as ISO 68 instead of SAE 20. The one that I have been using for several years since the auto parts places around Houston quit carrying straight SAE 20 is Mobil DTE Heavy Medium Circulating Oil. Use only non-detergent, which also means none of the multi-grade oil for IC engines. The main reason is that one of the things that the detergents do is absorb moisture when the engine isn’t running. When the engine is started and gets up to operating temperature, the moisture goes out the tail pipe. Lathes, mills, etc. should never get hot enough for this to happen. And especially with hobby machines which may not be operated for days or weeks, the water sits on and in the machine and will cause rust. ------- Can you mix oils to change SAE weights? [atlas618lathe] Posted by: gael79x~xxsbcglobal.net gael79x~xxsbcglobal.net Date: Mon Aug 31, 2015 8:43 am ((PDT)) Hello all, I am a dumb newbe, so feel free to fire away... I am working on getting an old Craftsman 101.21400 (Timken) ready for its first spin in a long time. The manual I downloaded off this site (THANK YOU!) says SAE 20 (Non-Detergent) is good for spindle oil, so I have no issues using it, I know Mobile Spindle #10 is a favorite here, but I figure a little thicker oil can't hurt my lathe, since it most likely has several miles on it, and that is what Craftsman recommends. I drove out to Plano, IL (Rural King) yesterday to pick up SAE 20 (Non-Detergent). They carry it in 2 gallon containers for $19.99, so I didn't break the bank, but this is a lot of oil, that will be used in relatively small amounts going forward. I noticed that they carry SAE 10 and SAE 30 in quart containers for under $3.00/quart. This got me thinking... If I were to buy a quart of each, and mix them together 1:1 ratio, would the resultant be SAE 20? Any thoughts? I realize I now have enough oil for the foreseeable future, but maybe this would save someone else the headache of storing / man-handling a two gallon container. Best to all, Scott ------- Re: Can you mix oils to change SAE weights? Posted by: "Robert Downs" wa5cabx~xxcomcast.net wa5cab Date: Tue Sep 1, 2015 10:59 am ((PDT)) Scott, First, up until about 1960 +/- Atlas (and therefore Sears) recommended using SAE 10 everywhere in and on the machine except on gear teeth, where they recommended a graphite bearing heavy gear grease. From then through the end of production, they recommended SAE 20 (which is difficult to find at least in many parts of the country today). So if you have an Atlas manual that recommends SAE 20 and a Craftsman one that says SAE 10, all that means is that the Craftsman manual is older. I would go with the SAE 20 everywhere on the machine where you use oil. You seem to have found some SAE 20 so you are OK for several years. But for example several days of searching auto parts stores and hardware stores in the Houston area didn’t turn up but one source of SAE 20. 3 In 1 (or is it 3 In One, I never can remember) Corp packages SAE 20 in the same small can as their much more common SAE 10 product. But buying even a quart of it would cost more than the two gallons you found. So for anyone in an area where none of the retailers still sell quart cans of straight SAE 20, SAE 20 is approximately the same as ISO 68. I (and a lot of others) buy a Mobile Heavy Medium Circulating Oil in ISO 68. Works fine. You can get it by the gallon from places like Enco and probably local machine shop supply houses if there are any near you. On the question of mixing SAE 10 and SAE 30 to make SAE 20, an hour of searching for clues on the Internet convinced me that the short answer is “don’t”. 99% of the questions found concerned vehicles and either synthetic versus non-synthetic or multi-viscosity (grade) mixing. But our application would generally not benefit at all from trying to use multi-grade oil (no one wants to work in a shop where the machine temperature varies from near or below freezing to near the boiling point of water). And oil with detergent additives (which includes pretty much all commonly available multi-grade engine oils, is a water scavenger which is decidedly undesirable on machinery that does not get hot enough to boil off the accumulated (from the atmosphere) water. So that just leaves the question of straight non-detergent SAE 10 and SAE 30. If you do mix these two 50:50, you will get a mixture that would probably pass a simple pour test for SAE 20. However, what you have is still a mixture of SAE 10 average sized molecules and SAE 30 average sized molecules and few to no SAE 20 average sized molecules. Will it work? Sure. But (without showing any test proof), my expectation would be that in a total loss system like we have (no sump to catch and recirculate the oil), I would expect that the SAE 10 portion would drip away first leaving near the end mostly SAE 30. This apparently wouldn’t hurt anything as in years past when I couldn’t find SAE 20, I used SAE 30 instead of SAE 10 due to the typical high average temperatures in South Texas. But don’t fool yourself into thinking that a mixture of 10 and 30 is the same as 20. Robert D. ------- Re: Can you mix oils to change SAE weights? Posted by: gael79x~xxsbcglobal.net gael79x~xxsbcglobal.net Date: Tue Sep 1, 2015 3:21 pm ((PDT)) Hello Robert. Thank you for your reply! I value your input. Best regards, Scott ------- Re: Can you mix oils to change SAE weights? Posted by: "A Nagy" ajxnagyx~xxsbcglobal.net snrg41 Date: Wed Sep 2, 2015 11:36 am ((PDT)) Can a person blend different viscosity oils to make a specific viscosity - Absolutely YES. Changing viscosity through blending is not difficult and that is how it is done but getting a specification viscosity at a specific temperature takes know-how. If I am running a high speed turbine at a certain bearing temperature I had better follow the turbine manufacturer's specification for lubricant viscosity and other specifications. There is much more latitude and much less anxiety (in my opinion) when running my 618 hobby machinist's lathe. I think this rather easy going attitude would also hold for larger hobby lathes. Having experience in petroleum refining, lube oil blending, and lubricant testing I know that petroleum derived, as well as synthetic (also derived from petroleum but more molecule specific and More Expensive) lubricants are composed of Base Oils and additive packages. Base oils are petroleum fractions typically obtained by distillation - lower boiling fractions, or cuts, have lower viscosity than higher boiling fractions. The type of crude oil and molecules present (paraffinic vs naphthenic) also influences viscosity as a function of boiling range. Base Oil fractions start boiling at atmospheric pressure at about 600F and go to about 1000F. They are obtained using vacuum distillation and don't evaporate under normal ambient conditions. Before large scale mixing of petroleum based and "synthetic" oil I would check a small blend for compatibility - as long as there was no separation or particle fall out (I wouldn't expect any) in the test blend, I would make the large blend. Base Oils are the carrier for the additive packages which do the work of preventing wear of parts, inhibiting rust, preventing foaming or preventing oxidation and thickening of the base oil. Application specific additive packages may be used to provide certain friction properties in way oils, cutting oils, or automatic transmission oils. Base oils also act as the fluid for heat transfer and the sink for waste components and metal fragments. The waste components vary depending on the application. You can also learn a lot about equipment performance through analysis of used lubricating oil. Even though I don't use motor oils for my machines I wouldn't worry about water pickup and rusting unless I am working during a rain storm and a tornado has taken my roof. Even then I wouldn't fault the motor oil. I am always concerned with wear due to metal to metal contact. There is anti- wear additive in motor oil. Think camshaft, valves, and cylinder walls. There is even enough to satisfy Mazda in a non - motor application. Mazda recommends motor oil for automotive standard transmission application. I happened to have a Mazda and there was never any problem with the transmission rusting because of "water retention" (it is a sealed system and nothing produces water). I didn't ever have a problem with transmission wear. I did drain and replace the oil after a few miles to check for wear particles. There were none. I didn't quite believe Mazda and thought gear oil would be better but Mazda was right. All oil will pick up parts per million water and oxygen simply because they exist in the world around us in the atmosphere - there is a lot more water present in an internal combustion engine from the burning of fuel and therefore certain requirements for motor oils is that they hold water during low temperature operation for "stop and go" driving. Motor oils have "detergent" additives to hold water and neutralize acids formed from combustion. That is why the oil gets dark in an engine. Prior to unleaded gasoline a white, lead containing, residue was present in motor oil. The gear oil in my mill doesn't get dark because there isn't anything to cause "darkening" unless it got too hot and that is why there is an oxidation inhibitor to prevent any short term exposure to a temperature excursion. Motor oil really never "wears out", it just gets dirty and the additives are depleted. Why use motor oil when better alternatives exist? In producing a 10, 20, 30, or whatever viscosity you want, lower viscosity oil is blended with higher viscosity oil. The blending is not linear - that is a 50/50 mix of 30 and 10 will not automatically give you a 20. The blend proportions are based on what is known as a viscosity blending index chart which may be found in the literature (for example The Data Book on Hydrocarbons by J.B. Maxwell or the American Petroleum Institute's Technical Data Book). Certain companies may have proprietary blending charts depending on the crude oil and refining processes used. Some companies specializing in lubricants purchase base oils (from refiners) and additive packages (think Lubrizol) and simply make their proprietary blends to meet certain industrial specifications (mil specs, automotive specs, or tool maker's specs). There are many standardized tests to assess lubricant performance (American Society of Testing Materials). Viscosity varies with temperature and the change in viscosity with temperature is called the viscosity index. The viscosity index is calculated based on the viscosity change typically between 100 and 210 degrees F. A high viscosity index oil will not change as much with temperature as a low viscosity index oil. Multi viscosity motor oils have a high viscosity index and use additives whose molecules "uncurl" with temperature and increase viscosity. An explanation of the need for this is more complex than required for our simple machinery use. Hopefully temperature is relatively stable in our machines and shops. If temperatures started to exceed 500 F, I would be concerned about lubricant breakdown and evaporation. If things got that hot I think there would be other things to be concerned about. Until then the molecules from the low viscosity base oil as well as the high viscosity base oil will stay put. For my personal use (and perhaps over-kill) I use automatic transmission fluids as well as power steering fluids for low viscosity and gear oils for high viscosity (these fluids are compounded to provide anti-wear under extreme pressure applications) - I make my own blends for my lathe lubrication - I judge my viscosity by eyeball and between my fingers realizing that any lubrication is better than none. If it flows and leaves an oily film behind I am happy. If I notice high temperature (by feeling the bearing housing) I conclude there is a problem with the bearing being too tight or something else other than lubrication. I use a mechanic's stethoscope to periodically listen to the bearings. Enough said about lubricants - I should be out cleaning my garage!!! AJ ------- Spindle Roller Bearing Lubrication - Atlas 12" [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: lovex~xxcvbt-web.org geoffrey_in_siam_atlas_12in_3991 Date: Fri Sep 11, 2015 6:55 am ((PDT)) I'd like to know more about the spindle bearing lubrication system on the Atlas 12". There are two oiler cups with caps. If I have some felts (or thick cotton cloth) in them, some oil will stay in the cup. If there are no felts in them, the oil will flow right out (I use SAE 20W). When I pulled the spindle, it seemed that some oil had puddled at the bottom of the bearings. The oil was contained by the dust shields. So what makes sense -- felts or no felts? And, how much oil should I put in each day? Try to fill the cup once? One squirt from an oil can? Thanks! ------- Re: Spindle Roller Bearing Lubrication - Atlas 12" Posted by: "Carvel Webb" carvelwx~xxabsamail.co.za cwlathes Date: Fri Sep 11, 2015 8:55 am ((PDT)) Does “Love” have another name? In the absence thereof I will have to say “Hi Love” :>) The Atlas oiling system is a ‘total loss’ system –- literally. The idea is to have felt in the cups which you would oil every time you use the lathe. The felt then drips the oil into the bearing, and it runs out the bottom –- some will accumulate in the bottom of the dust shield. One view is that this ‘flushing’ action is to help keep dirt out of the bearings. Kind Regards, Carvel ------- Re: Spindle Roller Bearing Lubrication - Atlas 12" Posted by: wa5cabx~xxcs.com wa5cab Date: Fri Sep 11, 2015 11:54 am ((PDT)) Sometime between 1966 and 1975, Atlas (Clausing) added Felt Plug 557-097 to both of the spindle bearing oilers. They may be retrofitted to earlier machines. They are made of low-density felt. Diameter is the same as the cup ID. Length is such that when saturated with oil, the top surface of the felt is just slightly below the top of the cup rim. Say about 1/32". To oil before each use, squirt oil onto the felt until it comes to the top of the cup lip. Until you get the felt plugs, fill the cups once per operating day with SAE 20. Robert Downs - Houston wa5cab dot com (Web Store) MVPA 9480 ------- Re: Spindle Roller Bearing Lubrication - Atlas 12" Posted by: "brokenwrench1 ." brokenwrenchx~xxgmail.com brokewrench Date: Fri Sep 11, 2015 4:45 pm ((PDT)) My uncle installed these on his old 12 x 24 babbit head lathe after he repoured it. http://www.ebay.com/itm/2pcs-Drip-Feed-Oiler-For-Model-Steam-Eng ine-/261402197025?hash=item3cdcc8fc21 Later he added one of these off a old Bridgeport that the factory replaced with a continuous auto lube model. http://www.ebay.com/itm/BIJUR-LUBE-PUMP-FOR-BRIDGEPORT-SERIES-I-MIL LING-MACHINE-/291553137667?hash=item43e1ebd403 He was turning 1/4 scale cannon barrels at higher spindle speeds using carbide bits. Robert Halbrook ------- Re: Spindle Roller Bearing Lubrication - Atlas 12" Posted by: "James Irwin" jirwin1x~xxaustin.rr.com jimirwin2001 Date: Fri Sep 11, 2015 6:12 pm ((PDT)) Felt holds oil and lets it seep out very slowly. Not drip. The idea is to allow a small amount to continuously flow (VERY small amount) to the bearings; just what little will flow down a machined steel surface under gravity. Good thoughtful approach. Jim Irwin ------- Re: Spindle Roller Bearing Lubrication - Atlas 12" Posted by: "brokenwrench1 ." brokenwrenchx~xxgmail.com brokewrench Date: Fri Sep 11, 2015 8:14 pm ((PDT)) My uncle was the senior millwright at Elco in Rockford Illinois from 1949-1989. He maintained some machines close to 100 years old. He told the management he needed to train his replacement but a week after uncle retired the factory scrapped all the machines he was keeping accurately running and got all new Swiss and German made modern replacements. After a year of not achieving accurate repeatability, they brought the old machines back in and had them rebuilt. They begged uncle to come in cash under the table to do it. He told them to stick it. He modified the drip rate to about 1-2 drops per hour using a mix of 10w oil and part STP. Later he used thinned down chainsaw bar oil. He only did this on his babbit-head lathe. Robert Halbrook ------- Re: Spindle Roller Bearing Lubrication - Atlas 12" Posted by: "Carvel Webb" carvelwx~xxabsamail.co.za cwlathes Date: Fri Sep 11, 2015 11:33 pm ((PDT)) Myford used drip oilers on their ML-7 babbit bearing range. My first Atlas was a rather well used 10D which had been quite cleverly fitted phosphor bronze bearings in place of the babbit. The oil cups had gone missing so I fitted the Myford type oilers to it, and they worked well for the rest of the time I had the lathe. Regards, Carvel http://www.lathes.co.uk/myfordml7photoessay/img1.jpg (picture from Tony Griffiths' site) ------- Re: Spindle Roller Bearing Lubrication - Atlas 12" Posted by: lovex~xxcvbt-web.org geoffrey_in_siam_atlas_12in_3991 Date: Sat Sep 12, 2015 1:11 am ((PDT)) These posts are helpful. Thank you. I'll keep in some cloth to let the oil drip down slowly. Thanks! ------- Subject: Re: [atlas_craftsman] Atlas Mill Arbor is Stuck! From: "Scott Henion shenionx~xxshdesigns.org [atlas_craftsman] Sent: Saturday, November 21, 2015 3:14 PM On 11/20/2015, Steve Budd sbuddx~xxrogers.com [atlas_craftsman] wrote: > I have had success soaking seized/rusted engine parts with a 50/50 mix > of acetone and ATF (automatic transmission oil) The frustrating thing is everyone who says it works never knows what type of ATF they used that actually mixed with acetone. Several I know including me have tried it. I had some Dextron-III and it does not mix, just balls up. I suspect Type-A or type F is the one that works. I have PB blaster and it works ok. Still usually end up needing the big blue wrench. ;) Scott G. Henion, Consultant Web site: http://SHDesigns.org ------- Atlas 7B help needed [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: jamesoconnell95x~xxyahoo.com jamesoconnell95 Date: Sat Jan 9, 2016 1:16 pm ((PST)) Hi All. Newby here. Just picked up the Craftsman Version of the Atlas 7B Shaper. Complete in great shape but it's been sitting quite a while. What oil is best to lube this up with? Please advise Thanks ------- Re: Atlas 7B help needed Posted by: "Carvel Webb" carvelwx~xxabsamail.co.za cwlathes Date: Sat Jan 9, 2016 1:33 pm ((PST)) Hi “Newby” (Can you help us with a name J ?) The Atlas technical bulletin refers to a “good quality No 10 motor oil throughout, except where otherwise noted“ and those would be the gears and grease cups. Hope it goes well, Regards, Carvel ------- Re: Atlas 7B help needed Posted by: "William R Meyers" wmrmeyersx~xxsbcglobal.net oldstudentmsgt Date: Sat Jan 9, 2016 1:43 pm ((PST)) Ten weight motor oil is what was specified, but I believe you'll find quite a bit of discussion on that. Any lubrication is better than none, and the specified oils in the documentation are what the equipment was designed for. You can do better now, as the technology has advanced. William R. Meyers, MSgt, USAF(Ret.) ------- Re: Atlas 7B help needed Posted by: wa5cabx~xxcs.com wa5cab Date: Sat Jan 9, 2016 2:32 pm ((PST)) James: In the 1930's, 40's and 50's, Atlas recommended SAE 10 non-detergent motor oil for the lathes, mills and shapers. Not long after production of the mills and shapers ceased, they changed the recommendation to SAE 20. I would go with that. However, except in a few parts of the country, finding non-detergent straight SAE 20 has become hard to impossible. There are several equivalents still sold but their viscosity is usually given in ISO units. ISO 68 is approximately the same as SAE 20. I use Mobil DTE Circulating Oil Heavy Medium ISO 68. I bought a gallon of it about three years ago. Robert Downs - Houston wa5cab dot com (Web Store) MVPA 9480 ------- Re: Atlas 7B help needed Posted by: jamesoconnell95x~xxyahoo.com jamesoconnell95 Date: Sat Jan 9, 2016 5:51 pm ((PST)) HI Robert, Thanks for the info. I really appreciate it. I'll look for the Mobile DTE ISO 68. So I guess 3 in 1 sae 20 is not acceptable? because it is a "detergent oil" ? James ------- Re: Atlas 7B help needed Posted by: wa5cabx~xxcs.com wa5cab Date: Sat Jan 9, 2016 11:13 pm ((PST)) No. I don't think that 3 in 1 SAE 20 is High Detergent. But considering the amount needed if you use the lathe very much, it would be quite expensive to use. Robert & Susan Downs - Houston ------- Re: Atlas 7B help needed Posted by: "Carvel Webb" carvelwx~xxabsamail.co.za cwlathes Date: Sun Jan 10, 2016 12:13 am ((PST)) All, Another option is 'sewing machine oil" which is generally SAE 10 or close to 3-in-1 or similar. If you have a sewing supplies wholesaler outlet near you they often supply it in 1 litre containers at reasonable prices . If the ambient temperature is high, and/or during summer, then SAE 30 seems to work OK as well, Regards, Carvel ------- Re: Atlas 7B help needed Posted by: "James Stack" jamessimba1942x~xxroadrunner.com Date: Sun Jan 10, 2016 9:20 am ((PST)) I’ve been perplexed also by the abrupt past change from the SAE system to the ISO and the confusion its caused with the various recommendations for machine tool lubrication. It's hard to remember offhand the equivalents values, but the one constant here is viscosity. A liquid's viscosity is directly related to its temperature, and the world now uses two common scales for expressing that; the’ Celsius and Fahrenheit scales, ignoring the irrelevant Kelvin. Looking back, it appears the machine tool folks caved in early-on to the pressure to go metric, adopting ISO(metric) for expressing viscosity but with the Fahrenheit scale staying put in this country for most other uses. The different ISO viscosity ratings you see kicked about in the internet forums appear to be nothing more then temperature equivalents for oil viscosities (metric system) the same as found in the english (SAE?) designation. It's not difficult to convert temperature using the equations. I do these in my head for one and two digit numbers, but if you’ve forgotten them, they are F=9/5C+32 and C=5/9(F-32). ISO 68 is not just approximately the same as SAE 20; it is exactly the same viscosity, as these numbers interchange as temperature conversions. I haven’t checked other ISO suggested equivalents as I don’t know what's recommended by different manufacturers offhand, but you can look up other designated oils where the machine’s maker flip-flopped in the past. To me, this is simpler for picking the correct oil viscosity, when all you have is one system's designation. Remember, celsius numbers will come out lower than the fahrenheit ones for the temperatures we work with, or if not, you’ve made an arithmetic error. The only time they’re equal is at -40 degrees and I don’t think anyone is interested in a viscosity ratings for temperatures that low. At least, I’m not. Burr... ------- Oil for Spindle [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: anthrhodesx~xxaol.com anthrhodes Date: Mon Feb 15, 2016 2:24 pm ((PST)) The following is copied and pasted from a response by John Knox who worked for Sheldon when they were still manufacturing lathes. "Back in the early ‘50’s I had several extended conversations with the Gentleman by the name of Leo Zupan, that did 99&9/10’s % of the drawing and engineering on the Sheldon line starting sometime in the mid ‘30’s. At that time there was much talk about the auto industry going to the Detergent oil. I asked Leo for his opinion on the use of the detergent oil. Leo’s comment was, “if it had been around when we were getting free oil charts from Mobil Oil it would have been specified”. His 2nd comment was, “if the oil is going to suspend the contaminants to be filtered out why not let it carry the contaminates out into the chip pan or onto the left shirtsleeve of the operator. I have been using it on mine from day one!" Just thought I'd throw it into the mix to confuse people as much as possible. Anthony Berkeley, Calif. ------- Re: Oil for Spindle Posted by: "Jerrold Tiers" jerdalx~xxsbcglobal.net jtiers Date: Mon Feb 15, 2016 3:11 pm ((PST)) That is pretty much my own opinion, after considering the matter for a while. I like the idea of dirt in the chip pan better than dirt in the bearings. Jerry ------- Re: Oil for Spindle Posted by: "humphrey lees" hleesx~xxwanadoo.fr humphreylees Date: Tue Feb 16, 2016 12:54 am ((PST)) When there is a filtration system, then detergent is best, but without one, it seems better to use a non detergent that is designed to let the dirt stick to the inert parts of the enclosure. I remember in the Seventies when the new oils came out, car owners were having engine breakdowns due to lumps of crud being released into the oilways on engines that were not designed for it. ------- Re: Oil for Spindle Posted by: "Jon Elson" elsonx~xxpico-systems.com jmelson2 Date: Tue Feb 16, 2016 8:21 am ((PST)) Yes, but they had a crankcase with a gallon of oil in it, being pumped around through an engine that cycles from cold to hot. The Atlas lathe has a total loss oil system, you drip it in the top, and it seeps out the bottom. (Slightly different depending on whether you have journal or roller bearings.) There is only one or two pumps of the oil can in each bearing system at a time. Jon ------- Re: Oil for Spindle Posted by: jwreyx~xxusa.net mondosmetals Date: Tue Feb 16, 2016 8:24 am ((PST)) Detergent grade oils, often labeled HD for "High Detergent" (not Heavy Duty or Harley Davidson...) are formulated for internal combustion engines which operate in widely varying environments. Very high or very low startup temperatures, high humidity, and elevated operating temperatures. Piston ring and cylinder wall surface temperatures exceeding 250°F are not uncommon. Combustion blow-by gasses (that blow past the piston rings into the crankcase) containing acids and other contaminants as by-products of the combustion of motor fuels are also present and contaminate the crankcase oil. The "detergent" additives are there to capture these contaminants and hold them in suspension to be removed by the filter and regular oil changes. Metal-turning lathes and similar shop machinery are not subjected to these widely varying and adverse conditions and environments. No sub-zero startup temps, no Death Valley desert operating temps, no combustion blow-by gasses, no internal operating temps exceeding 250 degrees Fahrenheit. Therefore detergent grade lubricating oils are not required. Regardless of whether the machine has some sort of forced lubrication system with or without filtration, or if it is only drip-lubricated with a total loss environment as these Atlas lathes are, non-detergent grade lubricating oils will carry away fine particulate contamination resulting from normal internal wear as well as any detergent grade oil. If you can purchase non-detergent grade oils for a lower price than detergent grade oils your bottom line will be better. As for the machine, the only argument I have heard against using detergent grade oils is there may be a tendency over time for the additives to accumulate in felt wicks and reduce the flow rate through the wick material, but that is only rumor and hearsay; I have not yet found a technical discussion on that subject. The most recent Atlas Press (and later Clausing) documentation recommends SAE 20 non-detergent lubricating oil for these lathes and that is exactly what I use for mine. My only deviations from this recommendation is I use Mobile Vactra # 2 Way Oil on the ways and all dovetails and a thin smear of Lubriplate Open Gear Grease on the change gears. Raymond ------- Re: Oil for Spindle Posted by: wa5cabx~xxcs.com wa5cab Date: Tue Feb 16, 2016 9:20 am ((PST)) The other characterstic of HD oils is that they supposedly capture moisture (in our case, from the atmosphere). Which is undesirable. And another primary contaminant that HD oils were developed to combat is carbon buildup from incomplete combustion. None of that is present in machine tools. Robert Downs - Houston ------- Re: Oil for Spindle Posted by: jerdalx~xxsbcglobal.net jtiers Date: Tue Feb 16, 2016 10:03 am ((PST)) Oil, bearings, and a few other subjects seem to bring out the hard and fast opinions, along with some acrimonious exchanges between those with opposing opinions. Some forums just ban those to avoid it. However, while I see many opinions that the detergent is NOT NEEDED... I don't see any solid, factual, and supported *reasons* as to why they are actually harmful and should NOT be used. They are certainly much more available to many people, and the specialty ND oils may not be available in the viscosities wanted. It seems that crud, dirt, fine cuttings, water (if any) etc, etc, would be desirable to wash out, rather than being left in place to do its dirty work. An oil that does that washing out, vs an otherwise identical oil that is not formulated to do that, would not seem to be harmful. It could be beneficial, but so long as it isn't harmful, and does the lubrication, what's wrong with it? It's not as if the detergent oil will reach out and grab contaminants from the air and grind them into your machine, and it might remove any that get in. If it does remove crud, etc, that seems good. If it does NOT, it would seem to be no worse than an ND oil. Both do the lubrication. If one carries the crud, the crud will leave as more oil is added, and who wants crud and water, etc to stay in the machine? So, what's WRONG with the detergent oils? (I don't use them, BTW...) or, from the other side, What's BETTER about the ND oils? Jerry ------- Re: Oil for Spindle Posted by: "humphrey lees" hleesx~xxwanadoo.fr humphreylees Date: Tue Feb 16, 2016 10:39 am ((PST)) You may have noticed that lawn mowers etc specify straight SAE oils for their engines. It is for a very good reason. They don’t have a filtration system, so the contaminants need to be stuck to the walls of the crank case or the bottom of the sump where they should remain. The finer contaminants can be flushed out when the oil is changed. One can compare this system to a Timken bearing on the Atlas lathe where the oil is trapped. I can see a good reason for using detergent oil on the Babbitt bearings where it is continuously being flushed out. I fail to see why grease is not specified for the Timken bearings, after all, that is what front wheel bearings use. ------- Re: Oil for Spindle Posted by: "Jerrold Tiers" jerdalx~xxsbcglobal.net jtiers Date: Tue Feb 16, 2016 3:56 pm ((PST)) In those usages the oil is re-used continuously for months. In our usage, the oil gets splashed around a bit, but reasonably soon it is lost out of the bearing etc. Whatever it carries away is presumably good to not have in there grinding away at the bearings. Of course, with grease, whatever is in there simply makes the grease dirtier, and contaminates are held in contact with the bearing until and unless the grease is changed. If grease was good enough, we need not worry about contamination at all, since it would be inherent to the system. As mentioned, at worst, detergent oil is the same as ND oil. Either it removes crud, or it leaves it in the bearing as if it were ND oil. Presumably removing is better than leaving. What mechanism would cause it to be worse? Jerry ------- Re: Oil for Spindle Posted by: jwreyx~xxusa.net mondosmetals Date: Tue Feb 16, 2016 4:41 pm ((PST)) Humphrey Lees said, in part: "I fail to see why grease is not specified for the Timken bearings, after all, that is what front wheel bearings use." Some roller bearings are designed to be lubricated with grease while others are designed to be lubricated with oil. Front wheel bearings common on automobiles are sealed at both ends with grease seals. The grease still needs to be cleaned out and replaced at periodic intervals as required by the automobile manufacturer. In these lathes the total loss oil system provides a constant flow of clean oil at the top while it carries contaminants away at the bottom. Packing these tapered bearings with grease would defeat this design. Raymond ------- Re: Oil for Spindle Posted by: "Richard Hughson" richughsonx~xxgmail.com loopyrich Date: Tue Feb 16, 2016 5:03 pm ((PST)) Humphrey Lees said, in part: "I fail to see why grease is not specified for the Timken bearings, after all, that is what front wheel bearings use." And it would cost more. These lathes were built to meet a price point as evidenced by so many Zamak parts. Rick H ------- Re: Oil for Spindle Posted by: "Jerrold Tiers" jerdalx~xxsbcglobal.net jtiers Date: Tue Feb 16, 2016 5:10 pm ((PST)) Which is to say, "they don't use grease and don't have grease seals because they are designed to use oil, since they have no grease seals". Which is of course true, if slightly circular. But the use of grease seals or shields, as with other machines (Logan for instance) would have permitted use of grease. There isn't anything about the machine or usage to preclude grease other than the fact of not having seals. Perhaps the idea of regular oil use was to avoid the problem of someone never re-greasing the bearings. What has not been needed for many years tends to be regarded as NEVER being needed. But if oil is needed regularly, it will be done as a matter of course over the long haul. Jerry ------- Re: Oil for Spindle Posted by: "Jon Elson" elsonx~xxpico-systems.com jmelson2 Date: Tue Feb 16, 2016 6:37 pm ((PST)) Well, doing a rough calculation a typical car tire at 60 miles/hour is doing something like 840 RPM. The A/C lathe can go over 2000 RPM. Also, the lathe spindle bearings are taken up to zero clearance and then preloaded. Auto wheel bearings are left with a slight clearance to accommodate the grease film. If you want, put some wheel bearing grease in your lathe and see if the bearings run hot. I bet they will! Jon ------- Re: Oil for Spindle Posted by: "Jerrold Tiers" jerdalx~xxsbcglobal.net jtiers Date: Tue Feb 16, 2016 8:29 pm ((PST)) And I'd bet they don't... There is an entirely different loading on wheel bearings... a LOT MORE than a lathe. The space is less for grease than it is for heat expansion. A decent grease will be fine at an even higher rpm. The amount of lube needed in a rolling element bearing is a lot less than you think. The Logan lathe has greased ball bearings. It runs up there in speed also. Plenty of things run fast with greased bearings. My mill does, and it goes to 2K +. Wheel bearing grease might not be the best, but it would likely be fine if not overpacked. Much better than no lube! Loading is quite low, and loading heats bearings. Jerry ------- Re: Oil for Spindle Posted by: wa5cabx~xxcs.com wa5cab Date: Tue Feb 16, 2016 9:18 pm ((PST)) The Logan bearings are ball bearings, and have radial and axial clearance. The Atlas spindle bearings have a slight negative clearance (supposed to be more than 0.002" cold). Wheel bearings often operate for hours at a time and get warm enough to soften or even melt the grease. In the headstock, especially in intermittent service as with most of our machines, the grease is unlikely to get warm enough to be redistributed and will eventually harden. If you put grease in the bearings during re-assembly, there is a good chance (Murphy would say that it is guaranteed) that it will harden and remain in such a way as to prevent oil added afterwards from actually getting into the bearings. It works fine just as it is. Why change it? ------- Re: Oil for Spindle Posted by: "James Irwin" jirwin1x~xxaustin.rr.com jimirwin2001 Date: Tue Feb 16, 2016 9:47 pm ((PST)) Greases are merely oils and soap combined to make a non-flowing oil supply for bearings. The actual lubrication is happening at the metal to metal interface by oil released from the greasy mass. ------- Re: Oil for Spindle Posted by: "Jerrold Tiers" jerdalx~xxsbcglobal.net jtiers Date: Wed Feb 17, 2016 6:40 am ((PST)) The Logan bearings do not have clearance. The bearings are a double row opposed type with zero or negative clearance, negative indicating an internal preload. If you are so unlucky as to get a bearing with clearance, your Logan will be totally unusable, with uncontrollable chatter. People sometimes replace those bearings with commercially available ones having clearance. It does not work. It's not a question of changing now, but of why Atlas chose oil when grease would have been lower maintenance and perfectly usable. The choice was made for some presumably good reason, when others chose differently. Jerry ------- Re: Oil for Spindle Posted by: "Carvel Webb" carvelwx~xxabsamail.co.za cwlathes Date: Wed Feb 17, 2016 7:14 am ((PST)) Jerry, As to why Atlas chose oil, I wonder whether it was just not a question of operating convenience rather than anything exotic? I had a 10F which had been converted to grease, but with the unsealed bearings it had the habit of spitting grease around which was most unpleasant. So one of the first jobs after getting it was to strip and clean layers of old grease, and convert back to oil :>) With the oil approach, almost the whole lathe can be tackled “with an oil can with SAE 20 oil” in terms of the lube chart at the time, with the only grease being in the countershaft cups for which one would not require a grease gun? Best regards, Carvel ------- Re: Oil for Spindle Posted by: "Dennes Forsmo" omsrofx~xxgmail.com omsrof Date: Wed Feb 17, 2016 7:30 am ((PST)) Hi. I have a Logan model 1955. I have read that this Logan has a single row ball bearing at the end of spindle towards tail stock whereas some Logans had double row at this position. I don't know if my model has single row ball bearing at left end of spindle. I will try to find out for left end of spindle and post. Scott Logan would know answer about # of rows at each location and preloading. Hope this partial info helps, Omsrof ------- Re: Oil for Spindle Posted by: "Jerrold Tiers" jerdalx~xxsbcglobal.net jtiers Date: Wed Feb 17, 2016 12:12 pm ((PST)) You won't. The left one is single row on all as far as I know. The nose bearing on Model 200 and similar is a one-piece double row, angular contact, zero clearance or internally preloaded bearing. There is no need for two preloaded bearings, one does the location and the rear bearing is needed only for rough alignment of the tail. Of course, the less the clearance, the better, but there is a considerable lever arm vs the nose, so even a sloppy clearance of a thou would be in the low tenths at the spindle nose. Others have multiple single row angular contact nose bearings, which are preloaded with Belleville springs. None of them are outfitted with grease fittings, the grease is "lifetime". My 200 had original bearings, and if I could get all the original grease out, they would be likely perfectly fine. The grease lasted probably 50 years, and as still functional other than the clumps of separated "soap" in it. Ball and roller bearings do not "wear out", they fail from fatigue and spalling unless dirty. Atlas would not have needed grease fittings, nor wanted them. The grease would not be required often, only after years of service. My supposition as to why they chose oil is similar to Carvel's, except that if regular oiling is needed, it will get done. Grease may get put off for years, due to the perceived hassle of cleaning and re-greasing. Anyone can operate an oil can, re-greasing might have looked too difficult for the home hobby type to do. Jerry ------- Re: Oil for Spindle From: James Irwin jirwin1x~xxaustin.rr.com Sent: Thursday, February 18, 2016 7:19 PM Unless something's changed in the last 30 years, since my days of dirt bike riding, motorcycle chains are not greased. Not exactly. Chain lubes used to come out of the can very thin & foamy, to break down dirt & gunk and penetrate into the concentric metal cylinders. Then the carrier volatile oils would flow/evaporate away, leaving a rather waxy/greasy film behind. Rather dry, though, to not attract dirt, making new gunk. Jim I ------- Re: Oil for Spindle Posted by: jerdalx~xxsbcglobal.net jtiers Date: Mon Feb 22, 2016 10:25 pm ((PST)) Just noticed your reply.... For bicycles, I never grease OR oil the chains. I put the chain in a can of paraffin wax, heat to melt the wax (in a pan of boiling water). The air bubbles out, the wax goes in, and there you are. The wax is not very attractive to dirt, but it does lube the chain sufficiently to work well. I do not think, however, that there is a lot of call for wax lubrication in the shop, however nice it may be for chains. I have heard of waxing tablesaw tops. And a waxy compound is used for protecting newly sharpened cutters in storage (not a lube application). Other than that, tapping, easing woodscrews, and drawer slides in wood cabinets, applications as a lubricant are limited or non-existent. I have a tube of Johnson #140 "Stik-Wax, used exclusively for tapping. It is not as hard as paraffin wax, seems to have about 20% or so beeswax. Jerry ------- NOTE TO FILE: A discussion as above about various oils and grease comes up fairly often in many groups. But I always read all the comments because we sometimes get some new or at least interesting information. Chances are we now already have our opinion and are unlikely to change it. The one common thread in discussions about lathe lubrication is that regular lubrication with oil is a good thing :-) But if you want to read more from this particular discussion, see the atlas_craftsman group at Yahoo. ------- Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2016 16:39:34 -0600 From: Sam Packard Subject: [OldTools] Lubricant for bench vise Hello! I use a Columbian 9R quick release vise fitted on my work bench as an end vise. It has two steel rods and a center screw. What is recommended for lubricating the rods to provide smooth in and out action when quick release causes threads to disengage? The turning screw action works fine. The chop is 4"x4"x14" oak so it could be weighing it down. It requires two hands to muscle it out to position. I used some type of lube that allowed it to move easily but had a sticky gummed mess with the sawdust after a while; graphite powder was a fuss and ineffectual. Thanks Sam Packard Lincoln NE ------ Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2016 13:49:11 -0900 From: Phil Schempf Subject: Re: [OldTools] Lubricant for bench vise I use Johnson's paste wax on mine Sam. Smear a bit on and run the screw in and out a couple of times. Let it dry and wipe off any excess. It needs to be refreshed from time to time, but does a good job for me and dust doesn't stick to it -- not much anyhow. Less than $10 for a 1# can that will last you for years and widely available (grocery stores, big boxes, etc.). Phil ------- Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2016 23:12:42 +0000 From: "John M Johnston (jmjhnstn)" Subject: Re: [OldTools] Lubricant for bench vise Phil and I are much of a mind. I rub paraffin wax on the bearing surfaces of my Sheldon quick release vise. It lubricates as needed and does not attract or retain sawdust. Inexpensive and easy to renew. Cheers, John ------- Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2016 18:04:12 -0600 From: Brent Kinsey Subject: Re: [OldTools] Lubricant for bench vise Sam, in addition to the wax, I took mine apart and polished up the rods, removing any spots of corrosion and buffing them, then wire brushed the inside of the guides. Worked much smoother afterwards Brent A Kinsey ------- ----------------------------------------------------------------- This is just one of some 80 files about machining and metalworking and useful workshop subjects that can be read at: http://www.janellestudio.com/metal/index.html ------------------------------------------------------------------