Machine General is a bit of a catch-all file, and is thus of potential interest to anyone no matter what machine type or brand they now own. And, no matter what type/brand you own or are researching, look beyond and read some of the other subject files on this site. Buried in all files are good tips for machining or repairing or adjusting that could easily be adapted to other types or brands of machine. As in all subject files here, entries are basically in chronological order, with the rare exception of stuff so important that it was put at the beginning of a file in the hope it would actually be read. Such a message is the first one where Lou opines on the classic question of what ___ is worth. A real gem. If you got to this file directly from my HOME PAGE, return there by using your browser's back button. BUT if you came to this file as the result of a web search engine, see more than 70 additional files on my home page Machining and Metalworking at Home http://www.janellestudio.com/metal/ SAFETY WARNING BEWARE: DO NOT ASSUME that any subject matter or procedure or process is safe or correct or appropriate just because it was mentioned in a news/user group or was included in these files or on this site or on any other web site or was published in a magazine or book or video. Working with metals and machinery and chemicals and electrical equipment is inherently dangerous. Wear safety devices and clothing as appropriate. Remove watches, rings, and jewellery -- and secure or remove loose clothing -- before operating any machine. Read, understand and follow the latest operating procedures and safety instructions provided by the manufacturer of your machine or tool or product. If you do not have those most recent official instructions, acquire a copy through the manufacturer before operating or using their product. Where the company no longer exists, use the appropriate news or user group to locate an official copy. Be careful -- original instructions may not meet current safety standards. Updated safety information and operating instructions may also be available through a local club, a local professional in the trade, a local business, or an appropriate government agency. In every case, use your common sense before beginning or taking the next step; and do not proceed if you have any questions or doubts about any procedure, or the safety of any procedure. Follow all laws and codes, and employ certified or licenced professionals as required by those laws or codes. Hazardous tasks beyond your competence or expertise should also be contracted to professionals. Let's be really careful out there. (c) Copyright 2003 - 2011 Machining and Metalworking at Home The form of the collected work in this text file (including editing, additions, and notes) is copyrighted and this file is not to be reproduced by any means, including electronic, without written permission except for strictly personal use. =========================================================================== Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2004 21:18:01 EDT From: LouD31M066x~xxaol.com Subject: Re: What's it worth What is it worth questions....selling price is mutually established by buyer and seller ...if they can reach agreement...otherwise no sale! A compressed version of the process is a public cry auction were the person willing to pay the most becomes the owner...a process that from first bid to hammer usually lasts less than a minute...some attend auctions for the excitement and drama as much as the opportunity to become the proud new owner of whatever. A small craftsman lathe with extras is listed in the auction bill in a nearby community...without seeing the lathe neither you nor I can state what it will sell for, but, unless the seller has placed a high reserve we know it will be sold...and the auction process will set the transaction price at what the high bidder is willing to pay...which is MORE than any other bidder thinks it is worth. Whatever you own is worth more to you than others who could have bought it before you purchased it...you hope that when it comes time to sell that someone will appear who shares your estimation of value. Louis ------- Date: Sat, 4 Nov 2000 18:32:25 -0700 From: "John Shadle" Subject: clockmaking <> I have an ancient South Bend for large work, a Unimat 3 for small work, and an ancient Mosely watchmakers lathe. The Mosely is useful because it uses WW collets, which provide a more accurate way to chuck small rod. I use to cut with a graver on a hand rest. The graver blades are simple 1/8" lathe bits held in a wooden handle. Once you get used to making things this way, it's hard to go back. I have WW collet cabability on the Unimat, but it doesn't seem too accurate. A WW lathe is hard to beat. And when it gets here, I'll have a Taig lathe. This will probably replace the Unimat, which is becoming worn and it's also weak. The gears are all cut on a Sherline mill, using homemade indexing fixtures and homemade flycutters. I also have a Sherline rotary table -- for this work worth its weight in gold. John Shadle www.scottsbluff.net/~ticktock/index.html www.geocities.com/jshadle.geo ------- Date: Wed, 08 Nov 2000 14:21:08 -0600 From: Jon Elson Subject: Re: Variable Speed Motors DLund98919x~xxaol.com wrote: > I understand that someone makes a single phase variable inverter that > outputs 3 phase and converts any 3 phase motor into a variable speed > drive. Has anyone seen this product? Sure, there are literally hundreds of companies marketing these (they may be made by dozens of different actual manufacturers). They are typically called variable speed drives or variable frequency drives. Most of the small ones can be run from single phase input. Many of the larger (over 1 HP) units can be run from single phase input with a little derating. I'm doing that with a Magnetek GPD333 1 Hp drive, and it is wonderful. You get not only variable speed, but single to 3-phase conversion, a cool running motor at full power, quiet (when the spindle motor is off), dynamic and DC-injection braking, control and reversing of the motor by low-current contact closure, etc. Some names are Dynatek (?sp), Magnetek, Yaskawa, Allen-Bradley, Bodine, Reliance, GE, Dayton, Century ...... Jon ------- Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 10:53:14 -0800 From: "Nicholas Carter and Felice Luftschein" Subject: Re: 1-2-3 Blocks I use them all the time as: 1) Parallels 2) Angle plates (two put together, or just one standing up as a simple plate) 3) Screwed on to the side of an angle plate to make two square edges. 4) To raise the height of objects off of the surface plate 5) As simple standards (most are within .001 of their dimensions) Everyone needs a set. I have 4 sets and sometimes use them all. ------- From: Tom Benedict To: Sent: Tuesday, November 14, 2000 1:10 PM Subject: Re: [taigtools] Shaper? > Mind my asking where you found yours? I honestly don't have room in my > sohp for one, and haven't had enough need to justify picking one up > yet, but hey... I haven't had a "need" need for a CNC mill. Still got > one. ;) A friend was going down to SoCal for a tour of various used machine dealers. I gave him my orders to buy a shaper or horizontal mill, etc. He called up and had a shaper and a tapmatic tap head, and angle plate for $440 - I gave him $500 when he got back to help pay for gas (he has a big truck). The shaper had a broken feed pawl housing, so I made a new one on the Taig mill (used the jet lathe to bore the housing recesses.) If anyone here can ever get a shaper, get one! Auto feed surfacing, internal keyway cutting, incredible surface finishes. Flycutting is now too coarse of a finish for my taste. ------- [NOTE TO FILE: Following was after a discussion about drill chuck runout on a drill press.] The arbor was okay but the original and expensive relacement chucks all displayed various amounts of runout. I would think that even if the arbor had some runout, you could experiment with chuck orientation to get the minimum runout, and THEN go for the tweaking of the chuck jaws to minimize overall runout. Posted by Hart on November 08, 00 at 22:28:08: In Reply to: Re: Drill chuck run out posted by JOHN JESSOME on November 08, 00 at 09:45:24: Thanks Ray and John. I ended up taking the new chuck back because I managed to true the old one down to .002" run out. I stuck a narrow strip of wet and dry sandpaper on one side of a drill shank and put it in the chuck and closed the jaws till I could just slide the drill back and forth. I worked on the high jaw which I had marked after checking with the dial indicator and after a few tries I had it down to .002". ------- [FOLLOWING REPLY RELATES TO SOMEONE NEEDING TO REPLACE A DAMAGED RACK ON A 6" ATLAS BUT INFO ALSO APPLIES TO GENERAL REPAIRS.] Many thanks for your reply. No intention to scare you. Just advice on how to avoid needless troubles later! "Stock" replacement racks are made to the right DP of the Atlas 6" lathe rack, but they are too thick and sometimes too long to use. You will have to cut them down the length to match the Atlas rack thickness. Making a long thin cut like this is time consuming. Cutting a long rack to length is a simple saw cut. Just cut off excess length of rack. Companies like Boston Gear and others make "stock" racks and gears for general repair and new machines, but there is always some fitting needed for a particular machine.In this case a thinning cut and a cut off if length is too long. Once properly cut, the "stock" rack should match the Atlas rack. If you can, time and money can be saved by getting an Atlas replacement rack from Clausing Service Center. I will get out my tools and check on the exact DP of the Atlas rack. Don't pull the rack without getting Clausing Technical Support nformation on your exact model number or trying way lubricant first!! Technical support gives you free advice on whether adjustment or replacement is needed. The problem with the pins is design. Old style taper pins have a smooth tapered hole. No problem driving them in or out. Fluted pins are a different story. When driven in, they gouge flutes into the hole, making this a theoretically permanent fastening. If you take the pins completely out , you may not be able to get them exactly in to match the flutes of the pin with the flutes in the hole. Too much driving force plus misalignment of flutes will damage the hole. Consequences are pins may not go down completely or hold the rack tight enough to keep the rack in position to function properly. Damaging the flutes enlarges the hole and pins may not fit properly. You may end up enlarging the hole and putting in larger pins to a point where nothing fits! If the flutes in the hole are damaged from inexperience, you just make more problems! You need Clausing Technical Support to exactly what kind of pins you are dealing with on your lathe model! If you guess instead, and turn up wrong, you are stuck with more damage and malfunction! In my case I was going to hammer the spindle out with a block of wood in the wrong direction, trying to follow instructions for the older models of Atlas 6 " lathes on the Atlas website. I could have damaged my headstock! A check with Clausing Technical support showed a different procedure for my model 3950 due to design differences from the older lathes. Design changes include changes in types of pins used also! I have staked pins in my rack, not taper pins or fluted pins! I am not touching them without more info! Gunsmithing books indicates staked pins are a problem! In short, make the call to Technical Support before you pry on anything and get exact advice for your lathe model! Don't guess! The phone call is cheap, the potential damage from not knowing exactly is not cheap! My call saved me the price of a headstock! James Sprott ------- Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2000 11:54:19 EST From: Sagebush9x~xxaol.com Subject: Re: Morris Taper Reamer Use Ron, I had to clean up the spindle taper on my 12" when I decided to build a 3C collet sleeve-somebody before me had run into it w/ a boring bar, I guess. I borrowed a #3 Morse finishing reamer from my auto machinist friend. Here is a tie-in w/ the borrowing/loaning thread from the other day. Per his advice, I ran the lathe in slowest back-gear, with the belt loose, & PLENTY of cutting oil. The reamer had a center hole in the tail end, so I supported it w/ the tailstock center, & held it stationary w/ a 12" Crescent. The bore was cleaning up nicely, everything going great, When it said "squeeeek". I don't know if it was a tool bit point embedded in the spindle or what, but my friend's reamer suddenly had a "hicky", & I was faced with taking it back & showing him how I f***ed it up. He was good about it & cleaned it up w/a stone, it will still be OK, but the embarassment will make me real reluctant to borrow anything in the future. Oh, the taper came out fine, & the collet sleeve shows no detectable runout after boring it in place & marking so it indexes the same w/the spindle every time. HTH, another Ron ------- Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2000 14:52:37 EST From: SLEYKINx~xxaol.com Subject: Re: Morris Taper Reamer Use Ron: As I understand it, reamers are to float in the bore and are self aligning. When we did my tapers we just held the reamer with a large crescent wrench and lightly turned them in the bore by hand. Cleaned up nicely and everything is still as true as I can measure. I would not use power on a finish reamer. Glenn Neff Medford, OR ------- Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2001 00:16:13 EST From: catboat15x~xxaol.com Subject: Re: Re: fix a taper? superiorx~xxpcom.net writes: > ...What if make mandrel/lap of brass turned > to 2mt in my lathe? Would that work?... When lapping my engine cylinder I made an expandable lap. Drilled and cross cut the working end, tapped the hole only part way with a normal tap so that when I put a machine screw in there it expanded the lap a few thous. When the brasso felt as if it was not cutting, pull the lap out and tighten the machine screw a bit to expand the lap a small amount. I don''t know if that would work on a Morse taper since with a cylinder I could slide the lap back and forth, sure not able to do that on a taper. I think your better solution would be to beg, borrow or steal a Morse taper reamer to clean up your problem. I assume you did the "chalk test" to see how far off it is and where it is rubbing? When I turned my own tapers when getting close to size I drew a chalk line down the taper, insert in the socket, give it a part turn, and see where the chalk was rubbed; then adjust accordingly. John Meacham High Desert of California, Palmdale, Littlerock. ------- Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2001 10:21:38 -0800 From: "Wally Skyrman" Subject: Subject: Morse Taper Reamer Use The times I have used a Morse Taper reamer to clean up the head and tail stock on a lathe was to remove the any small bits of impacted metal that got jammed into the surface of the female taper when as center was forced into a dirty hole or the center being "dirty" when being installed. Since removing these small impacted bits are a minor job I have always just let the Reamer float and slowly twisted the reamer by hand. Let's don't get carried away trying to remove any major amounts of spindle or tailstock ram metal. Wally Skyrman Central Point, Oregon ------- Date: Wed, 03 Jan 2001 02:24:13 -1000 From: Gene Subject: Re: Tailstock on a carriage? brewerpaulx~xxaol.com wrote: > Oddball idea here-- I need to do quite a bit of drilling of approx > 1/2"holes in pieces of wood, 6" long ( making wooden Irish whistles). > Been using a drill bit in the tailstock of my 6" Atlas, work in the > chuck, and pushing the tailstock in by hand. Is there any way to > mount some sort of drill chuck on the carriage, so I can feed the > drill bit in with the carriage crank? clamp a block of aluminum or something to the carriage, lock down the gibs, drill a hole into the block the size you want , add a set screw and a flat on the drill and there you have it. [NOTE: careful!!! carriage manual drive gear is very tiny/weak for forcing movement of the carriage; preferable to use hand pressure to directly move the carriage if the load is going to be heavy. Also see another reference to using a lever similar to the one on the Taig tailstock. The new, big lever works off a locked-in-place-tailstock in say an Atlas, and pushes the carriage towards the headstock. No strain on any gear.] ------- Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2001 07:27:23 -0500 From: "Cindy" Subject: Re: Tailstock on a carriage? You could also clamp the wood in a bracket on the tool post , and put the drill bit in the head [NOTE: see warning above about carriage forcing no-no.] ------- Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2001 21:53:28 -0000 From: SPK4DEADx~xxEARTHLINK.NET Subject: Markings on dials etc. Here is what I do. Take a can of glossy black spray paint. Spray the paint into a small container that you don't care about(old medicine bottle or the like). Use enough paint so that you get a liquid puddle in tne bottle. Dip your finger in the paint and smear it onto the marks that you are trying to restore. When the paint is dry or mostly dry, you can rub the excess off with your finger, an eraser, or scrape it off carefully with a razor blade. The markings are now filled in and easy to read. Sometimes it takes a couple of tries to get it right, but, practice makes perfect. Greg Benedict ------- Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2001 23:58:55 -0500 From: "Rich D." Subject: Re: Graduated Markings Craig Mazur wrote: > Assuming I have an indexing device, does anyone have any recommendions > on how to cut graduated markings on say a rorary tabe or a hand wheel? > What kind of cutter should I use? Craig: Nothing more than a threading tool set on it's side with the tip set to V center and a stop (or 2) on the ways to limit saddle travel. You may want to make several depth passes to the finished depth. Rich D. Colorado Midland Railway ------- Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2001 11:12:51 -0800 From: "Craig Libuse" Subject: Re: to buy sherline mini on ebay or the dealers or the factory is the question ! SHERLINE ON EBAY Every once in a while this question comes up, and it is a good one that needs to be clarified, both for Sherline dealers and customers. The main purpose of Sherline offering machines on eBay is to bring them to the attention of new customers who would not have learned of the machine's existence in other ways. The lathes are placed under "clockmaker's lathe" or "microscope repair lathe" or "train model lathe" or other subject areas to make hobbyists in various areas of specialty aware of them. These are people who might be searching for the word "microscope" and would come across our auction in the search. These are also people who probably don't see our ads in Home Shop Machinist magazine. Since we started putting counters at the bottom of our auctions, we have been amazed at the results. Often between 300 and 1000 people will look at a particular auction even though only a few bid. All this for a $2.00 listing fee! It is by far our best advertising buy. I sometimes get worse response from magazine ads costing thousands of dollars. Keep in mind that we offer only one machine a week at most, which is almost insignificant compared to how many we manufacture, so profit is obviously not the motive. In the auction description we always provide a direct link to our dealers page. We have had many dealers comment that they have had customers come to them after learning about the machines on eBay but losing out to a higher bidder. After trying once or twice and finding the price going almost to retail in the heated bidding at the end, they finally contact a dealer to purchase a machine. This works out well for everyone, including the lucky few who get a new machine at a good price at auction and the dealers who make sales that they would not have made otherwise. (Dealers also have access to the bidding list after the auction closes. The winning bidder will be needing accessories, and the losing bidders are still looking for a machine, and their e-mail addresses are right there for you. We don't contact them, but you can.) By the way, we will never sell anything for over retail. If the bidding goes beyond retail price, the winning bidder, who obviously didn't do his homework by looking up prices on our site, will still be charged only retail price regardless of his bid. Scoring a few extra bucks at the expense of a customer who would be very unhappy when he found out he overpaid would be very shortsighted. We are often asked by losing bidders if they can buy one for the price of the winning bid. Again, the answer is no, because the point of it all is not to sell one extra machine, but rather to get more people aware of the existence of the machine. They can buy it from us at full price or call a dealer. Since everyone on this list is already aware of Sherline, you are not who we are seeking with the auctions, although if you are looking for a machine, it wouldn't be a bad idea to keep an eye on them. Every once in a while someone gets a real steal when bidders aren't on line at the last minute. If you're not in a hurry, throw in a lowball bid and hope for the best. It's called "bottom feeding", but I've scored some real bargains on diecast car models that way. As to the used machines on eBay, we are very gratified at the high prices they usually bring. Often you can get a number of accessories thrown in at a good price, although some of the machines, even if advertised as "new in the box" or "used only once", are old enough to have the older AC/DC motor instead of the newer DC motor offered since 1996. The DC unit is definitely a superior unit and worth paying a bit more for. (Look for the larger square speed control unit.) Other than that, we support the old machines the same as the new ones and all new accessories will fit them. Sorry this is so long, but hopefully it will clear up why Sherline (and many other companies) offer their products on eBay. It is simply the best advertising buy around. Craig Libuse Marketing Director Sherline Products Inc. ------- Date: Sun, 04 Feb 2001 05:50:23 -0000 From: "simon sayez" Subject: Re: Stephen Murray?? I can't find your email address, HO scratchbuilding. Hi Nick, I sent you the email address for Stephen in private note. Your inquiry about needed accessories for scratchbuilding is a good one. I make extensive use of the milling attachment and the collet set, and probably spend more time milling than turning. My list: Milling attachment Vise for milling attachment Collet set Blank collets 4-jaw chuck (I don't have a 3-jaw so I can't compare) Face plate 3 1/4" 3/4-16 thread mount Face plate angle bracket set 0-1/4" Jacobs drill chuck Drill chuck arbor, attaches Jacobs chucks directly on spindle Drilling tailstock, lever operated Die holder for tailstock Slitting saw arbor Blank arbors Extra tool posts Top slide (compound) 3/4-16 Chuck adaptor, adapts chuck to mill table Another nice item would be some type of spin indexer or rotary table. I have an idea for making a poor man's rotary out of the 3/4-16 Chuck adaptor and the four jaw chuck. I also find it invaluable to have Intellicad up & running as I'm working on the loco. I am drawing the loco as I go, and it is much easier to grab a dimension on the fly from the drawing on the screen than to print them out on paper. Intellicad is totally free and just as useful as the Autocad 2000 I use at work. I got my copy of Intellicad at: www.cadopia.com When I'm milling I draw circles the size of my mill bit in the drawing so I can measure out tool paths. I hardly ever layout the parts on the material like I used to, I find that using Intellicad to measure to four decimal places and then using the Taig handwheels is much easier and more accurate than eyeballing scribed lines! Simon ------- Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 16:35:26 -0000 From: lasernerdx~xxhotmail.com Subject: Re: I'm a new owner One thing that becomes obvious as you start to work is setup time. You should really start to think about easy ways to set work up, and how to cut it quickly. This is where you really have to understand your work, and your tools. There's almost always a faster way, and because you don't have someone to show you, you'll have to do the work yourself :) Perhaps this sounds obscure right now, but later on, you'll see that this becomes your world. Once you've designed it, you gotta set it up and then cut it. There are long ways, and there are short ways to do all three.. Regards, Robin ------- Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 13:59:52 -0600 (CST) From: Tom Benedict Subject: Re: Re: I'm a new owner On Sat, 17 Feb 2001 lasernerdx~xxhotmail.com wrote: > One thing that becomes obvious as you start to work is setup time. > You should really start to think about easy ways to set work up, and > how to cut it quickly. This is where you really have to understand > your work, and your tools. There's almost always a faster way, and Lemme jump in real quick here: There's a very definite line between doing work quickly and rushing. Doing work quicker may be the difference between clamping each piece in the vise and indicating it in, or using a vise stop, indicating ONCE, then positioning each subsequent piece up against the vise stop. It saves a lot of time on indicating your workpiece, but it isn't rushing. The reason I'm making a big deal about this is that every time I've rushed and cutting corners (so to speak), I've wound up either injured, or having had a really close call. It's not worth it. But carefully thinking through how you're going to set up to cut, THAT has been worth it every time. And the times that I've put a little extra thought into how I'm going to set up for a cut, I've wound up saving time and headache each time. > Perhaps this sounds obscure right now, but later on, you'll see that > this becomes your world. Once you've designed it, you gotta set it up > and then cut it. There are long ways, and there are short ways to do > all three.. You got it. Tom ------- Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 09:45:02 -0500 From: Ken Jenkins Subject: Re: Learning machining > Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 12:22:15 -0000 > From: PI71x~xxwebtv.net > Subject: Re: I'm a new owner > Like the other guys said.. read, read and read some more. And then get your hands dirty. It helps if you have someone to bounce ideas and questions off in person and to show you "how to" but if you don't, just try something and "see if it works". < The best way to learn is to have a mentor. IMHO The old system of apprentice and master has never been improved upon. Nearly 30 years ago when I was starting out as a machinist they paired me with an older gentleman in the shop who gave me the right amount of freedom to make mistakes, guidance in the right direction and correction. Of course this takes a great deal of patience on the side of the teacher and a willingness and dedication to learn on the side of the pupil. In my other hobby, woodworking, the tradition continues very much intact. I agree with Hoyt that there is absolutely NO substitute for doing. There are so many things (important) things that a book cannot teach you. One example is listening to your tools. A good machinist is "hearing" as much as she/he "sees". Most often I find that I hear something is wrong long before I see it. Recently there has been some discussion of "speeds and feeds", I never "set" a speed or feed rate based on a theoretical value, rather I listen and watch to see if the machine is "happy". Every time I've actually set a speed and feed based on some theoretical value it has never been "right" for the machine and piece. What's "happy" on one machine because of it's size and stability can be absolutely terrifying or like watching paint dry on another one. So how do you learn to "listen for happiness" from a book? How do you find a mentor? First, look in your area for clubs which involve machining. These might not be actual machining clubs but possibly something like astronomy where people are building telescopes or RC modeling, etc. Failing that you could check out your local technical or community college to see if they offer courses in basic machining which can be audited or taken outside of a degree program. One of the real problems with machining is that learning through trial and error based on theoretical book knowledge can (even on a small machine) be very dangerous to your health so first of all read everything you can about safe work habits and procedures... yes EVEN the manual that came with your machine! Ken ------- Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 17:24:44 -0800 From: "Nicholas Carter and Felice Luftschein" Subject: Re: That final little bit (axles) The question is, what type of fit do you want? RC Running or Sliding Clearance Fit LC Locational Clearance Fit LT Transition Clearance or Interference Fit LN Locational Interference Fit FN Force or Shrink Fit Within each of these types, are sub-categories of fits; for example, in RC you have: RC1 Close Sliding Fit RC2 Sliding Fit RC3 Precision Running Fit RC4 Close Running Fit RC5 and 6 Medium Running Fits RC7 Free Running Fit RC8 and 9 Loose Running Fits Anyway, I'm not going to copy the whole section in Machnery's Handbook down, but you get the idea that there are very many types of fits depend- ing on what you want to achieve. They have standard tables for this. But I sense I'm being a pedant, so I would say that what I do generally is make the hole about .001 less than the shaft, measuring while both are not hot from cutting. I then press them together with an arbor press. If I goof, I straight knurl either the shaft or the hole. You can't just press on a force fit by hand, or it wouldn't be a force fit. Putting the shaft in the freezer and the wheel in the oven will sometimes allow you to do that. So when it doesn't fit, you probably are where you want to be, you just have to force the parts together somehow. See our web pages http://www.casco.net/~felice ------- Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 10:59:34 -0800 From: Frank Evan Perdicaro Subject: power, superglue, doorknobs and taper I use a 1/2 HP Craftsman table saw motor ($5 at a yard sale) on my 10" It came with a former fridge motor (1/3 HP) that was ugly. NB: it is possible to break things on the lathe with a 1/2 HP motor. A larger motor will break things faster. Is that what you want? My lathe was quite used when I got it. Taking a heavy cut in aluminum with the back gear in use I found out a 1/2 motor will strip teeth off the bull gear in the headstock! Lovely... just think how fast you could rip off teeth with a 1 HP motor! My guess is at least $100 per second. Superglue can be used to fill voids. No, I do not know the chemistry of this reaction but it is well known. Superglue and baking soda make a wonderful void filler. Lay down a bead of SG and spoon on the soda. Instant HARD cure with all the strenght you expect from SG. One of my first drill-rod projects was a doorknob scribe. I got a nice glass doorknob from a yard sale with a broken ferrul. After cleanup and light internal sanding it was ready to be made into an awl. Using 1/4" drill rod and a belt sander I made the pointy part. It was hardened and tempered on my kitchen stove using olive oil. Two part paste epoxy from Pep Boys set the metal in the glass. It has been there for years. Tapers are wonderful mechanical devices. They relate the coefficient of friction between the two pieces and the tangent of the angle of closure into something non-obvious and quite useful. Since the angle of closure usually does not change virtually all taper problems can be fixed by careful analysis of the coef of friction. Clean the parts, removing rust, oil and any nicks. Scrub both parts with new green ScotchBrite and isopropyl alcohol. This always works. ------- Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2001 11:35:58 -0000 From: ballendox~xxyahoo.com Subject: Re: runout for 3-jaw chuck and WW collets > Caution- drill rod is not round. It looks nice and shinny, but take > a piece and do some careful measurements and you will find it often > has a 'lobe' shape. A ground drill blank would be much better. ron Ron, I'll second that! I don't know what I would do without the drill BLANKS in my shop! (several sizes, always bought in pairs) Also HSS Lathe tool bits. (again several sizes, and pairs) Used as parallels, supports, etc. Ballendo ------- Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2001 09:53:23 -0500 From: ron ginger Subject: Re: was runout -- now Drill blanks Carol & Jerry Jankura wrote: > I'm really new at this hobby. Where would one find items such > as these drill blanks in small quantities? Yes, drill blanks are a very usefull item. I have two full fractional sets, all arranged in drill stands. I dont think they are actually 'blanks' from which drills get made, they are just precision ground rods in drill sizes. They are standard items in any supply catalog- often sold by sets. Im sure MSC, Travers, etal have them. They can be used in pairs as parrallels. They can be used as a kind of plug or hole gauge. They can help in measuring between two holes, just put a blank in each hole, measure the distance across them and subtract the radius of the two blanks. Ive used them to test alignment of the ends of a connecting rod. Often used as a temporary shaft in aligning things, or testing setup of gears and pulleys. You could grind one end of it into a Dbit shape, and for small money have a full set of Dbit reamers. I got two sets of these several years ago in a box lot I bought at an auction. I didnt even know what they were, and I just thought Id scrap them, but as they set on my bench I found more and more uses for them. I now have 2 sets of fractioanl and one set of number sizes. ron ginger ------- Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2001 00:21:00 -0700 (PDT) From: Don Smith Subject: Spindle Collar Fixed! (was Spindle Collar Part #) [NOTE: CONCERNED LOCKSCREW ON COLLAR THAT SHOULD HAVE EITHER A PIECE OF BRASS OR LEAD IN THE HOLE TO PROTECT THE SPINDLE OR THREADS AT THAT LOCATION WHEN THE SETSCREW IS TIGHTENED. ALSO HELPS TO SUBSTITUTE A SCREW WITH AN ALLEN HEAD IF THE CURRENT SCREWHEAD IS SLOTTED. ONE OTHER SOURCE OF LEAD FOR THIS FUNCTION IS SIMPLY A PIECE OF ROUND LEAD SHOT.] Thanks everyone for the help! Here`s how to fix this problem...I`m sure someone will eventually need this info. First remove the setscrew. If you have a slotted setscrew, replace it with an allen setscrew. Hold the collar with a pair of pliers etc., and heat the collar with a propane torch until the lead inside the threaded hole is liquid, and blow it out with compressed air. Screw the collar onto the end of the spindle and cut a piece of solder with just the right diameter to fit into the hole. Take a pin punch and mash it down into the hole and install setscrew. Regards, Don Smith ------- Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 23:47:19 -0000 From: ballendox~xxyahoo.com Subject: Re: a couple of questions... In taigtools, simon wrote: > Another thing I find helpful is leaving the e-clip off the carriage > handwheel. Pulling the handwheel gear out until it disengages the > rack makes it very easy to move the carriage a long distance (or > completely off). It also makes it easier to realign the handle for > the "best" position when doing fine work. > When the e-clip kept the handwheel gear engaged all the time I > found that the handle was usually in the most awkward position when I > want to move the carriage just a teeny bit or if I need to apply > extra force. Now I just pop the handwheel out & realign the handle > to where it feels best. It is now so natural to pop the handwheel in > and out of engagement that I can't imagine not having this > added "feature". Simon Simon, I do the same thing, for the similar reasons, on a cheap import arbor press. Lets me put the handle in the best position for applying the force. On the arbor press it's a collar to remove, rather than an e-clip. Hope this helps someone. Ballendo ------- Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2001 12:06:09 -0500 From: "Thomas Stubblefield" Subject: Re: Air comrpessor Yes, Skip, I do have an opinion about them. I bought the 5.5hp 13 gallon tank model with the free air tools included. It's noisy and doesn't have the output that I'd like. Plus, it's not going to last as long as an oil-type compressor. I didn't have the money for a better one at the time. But for airing up tires and the occasional dusting of the workbench, it's adequate, long as you can stand the noise. YMMV :) Tom Stubblefield SW Missouri A/C 618 owner ------- Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2001 12:31:03 -0500 (CDT) From: dswrx~xxwebtv.net Subject: Re: Air compressor Got mine from Home Depot... a DeVibliss ( or sumthin or utter). Very noisy, but all compressors don't qualify for "a vow of silence". It keeps the neighbors from hearing my singing and complaining! 8-) Came with some fair tooling. You can drop by an take a look at it, if you'd like. Leo ------- Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2001 11:19:01 -0700 From: "Dee Schuyler" Subject: Re: Air comrpessor Yes I have an opinion! I bought one about four years ago , mine happened to be a Sears but it was the oil less sixty gallon and It was made by Campbell Hausfield, It worked fine for me for about 4 years, fact it is still working fine for my son in law. But I could no longer stand the noise so I bit the bullet and bought a oil lubricated compressor and my wife, and I am sure the neighbors, are all much happier! I know I am! And you know the one I bought was used, and it puts out more air, and it also is on a sixty gallon tank! Bottom Line it was cheaper! YMMV Dee ------- Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2001 15:18:23 -0700 (PDT) From: R Thomas Subject: Re: Air comrpessor Oil-less compressors are cheap but very noisy. They also do not last long with heavy use. A friend of mine was a Campbell-Hausfeld rep and he sold them to people like Home-Depot and Lowes. He suggested getting the an oil type with the cast-iron pump. Since he sold them that is the direction I took for my home compressor. The oiled compressors are significantly quieter. I also found a small used air dryer that I hooked up between the compressor and the tank. I live on the Gulf Coast so it is nice to blow air and not spray water. ------- Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 05:52:13 -0000 From: johnt49x~xxhotmail.com Subject: Re: Air comrpessor Skip: As many have stated before, don't waste your money on an oiless compressor, you'll regret it. They are the "YUGOS" of air compressors! Don't know what you plan to do with it, but be sure it delivers enough air for the job. They are rated in SCFM (standard cubic feet per minute). The most useful rating is SCFM x~xx 90psi (will maintain 90 psi while under under demand). Don't be fooled by the cheaper compressors that are rated "X" SCFM x~xx 45 psi - hardly any tools will operate at that whimpy pressure. Most tools are rated in cfm. Sand blasters, grinders, buffers, etc seem to use the most air. Air ratchets, impact tools, die grinders a little less, and so on. Look at the tools you plan to use or buy to decide what you need. If in doubt & it won't bust you budget go with the bigger one. The more it runs the more heat & condensation you'll get in the tank, not to mention that constant noise you'll have to live with. Also if you have a choice go with cast iron over aluminum. You wouldn't buy an aluminum lathe for obvious reasons. Why settle for an inferior compressor. John ------- Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 07:39:55 -0500 From: "Randy" Subject: Re: Air comrpessor Skip: Awhile back when I had to close my business, (a motorcycle, atv and small engine repair shop) I moved all of it into another building I owned so that I could rent out the building I was in. I had a 60 gallon Campbell Hausfield single stage oil type that I could not put in the location I needed it in so I set off to the side and purchased a cheap Sears 25 gallon oilless so that I could move it around where I needed it. What a mistake this thing is so damn noisy it would wake the dead. Save up and get an oilless with the highest cfm you can afford. The higher cfm is great when running air tools or a blast cabinet. I would suggest nothing smaller than a 5 hp if you are going with a 60 gallon or bigger tank. Randy Pedersen Atlas 618 South Bend 9" A South Bend 9" C ------- Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 09:20:44 -0500 (CDT) From: Tom Benedict Subject: Re: how to start On Sat, 8 Sep 2001 whelchelinnhx~xxyahoo.com wrote: > I am a wood worker but I know nothing about machining metal. What is > the best way to get started? With a lathe? or a lathe milling machine > combination? Are there any good web sites for a rank beginner? I kinda started backward. My initial exposure to machine tools was a South Bend mill. When I started using a lathe, the guy who was showing me how to use it was suprised I'd started out that way. I highly recommend starting with a lathe. Lots of reasons why: The tooling is cheaper - If you dull a lathe tool, it's a matter of honing it with a hand stone, or re-grinding it with a bench grinder. If you dull a mill, unless you're set up with a tool and cutter grinder, you're buying a new mill. You can make planing cuts on a lathe - Provided the piece fits within the size of the lathe, you can chuck up a part in a 4-jaw chuck or bolt it to a faceplate, and take many of the cuts you'd use a mill for. Lathes are immensely useful - One of the first tasks when picking up a Taig mill is to get a bunch of blank arbors and make end mill holders out of them. You really need a lathe to do this. It'd be downright tough on a mill. (It's doable. Just tough...) If you have to pick one or the other, I'd pick up the lathe. If you have the option of picking one or both, I'd still just pick up the lathe until you get used to it, run into its limitations (like the small work envelope of the milling attachment), and NEED a mill. If you're in a strange situation where you either spend the money or it's gone, by all means pick up both tools! One thing to keep in mind: A lathe by itself doesn't do a whole lot. A lathe with tooling is almost infinitely flexible in what it can do. The same is true of a mill. Expect to spend at least as much on tooling as you spent on the lathe. If you're doing the math and finding you can juuust barely get the lathe and the mill, I'd skip the mill and put the money toward some essentials like toolbits, tool holders (I highly recommend having one for each tool, including a back tool holder for the cutoff tool), a good set of calipers, a test dial indicator (I got mine used for under $30), a good set of drill bits for cutting metal, etc. > I am a wood worker but I know nothing about machining metal. What is > the best way to get started? With a lathe? or a lathe milling machine > combination? Are there any good web sites for a rank beginner? DOH! Forgot to answer your other question! I haven't seen any web sites that go through everything you'd need if you were just starting out in metal. (The same is true for wood turning, I've found! I'm a rank beginner there.) Tom ------- Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 20:58:56 -0800 From: Randy Gordon-Gilmore Subject: Re: Swarf Wars At 02:33 PM 2/20/02 -0500, Bill wrote: >Does anyone use a shield behind the lathe like the 7x10 lathes have? >If I make one will I hate it? I don't know what a 7x10 shield looks like, but I do have a chip tray/shield which I made years ago and really like. My Taig is on a riser block, and the chip tray is slotted to fit around the block. I slide it off to the right when it gets too much swarf in it. I just brush all the chips off the lathe back into the tray first. Mine is stainless steel sheet, but you could do the same thing with a baking tray (snip the flange at the bend and overlap) I put a photo of the lathe in my files section (Randy's Taig Lathe Pics) Best regards, Randy ------- Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 02:26:01 -0500 From: Stan Stocker Subject: Re: Swarf Wars I have Masonite behind one 9 inch lathe, and Fomica behind the other 9 incher. I have a baking pan under the Taig, and just slide it out and dump it, no chip shield behind it yet. I'm going to rework my whole Taig setup, and intend to put the lathe on a riser block, with the entire area under the lathe a piece of 1/2 inch plate. I'll still use a chip pan, but will add a backsplash. I've got a few things to play around with, and think being able to add threaded or reamed holes around the lathe will be handy, not to mention being able to plonk a mag base down anywhere. As you pointed out, getting a Mighty Mag off isn't always the easiest task in the world, nor is cleaning swarf off of one of the little beasties a joy. If you wrap a plastic bag around your mag base, clean up is a darn site easier. Swarf clean up is always a pain. I use a large shop vac with a crevice tool for most clean up, assisted by a chip brush with the bristles cut to about half length. I do not use air for cleaning tools, instead of getting ships out of the works, air just drives things deeper into places it will do the most harm, like chuck scrolls and electrical parts. Most shops have air available, but do not approve of using it for cleaning up the lathe or mill. Some do it anyway, some fire a person for doing such a thing on the first offense. I figure the swarf is usually right around the machine, why spread it around with a blast of air? If you get in the habit of always closing cabinets and drawers before turning the lathe on, and putting tooling (drill keys, bits, hex keys) out of the area that gets the most swarf clean up is easier. I'm far from perfect about remembering this, and curse myself everytime I forget. Final clean up is usually with a wad of paper towel dampened with kerosene, followed by a light oiling and rub off with lint free shop towels - the blue ones sold in rolls like paper towels. Stan ------- Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 09:05:16 -0500 From: Ken Jenkins Subject: Re: Swarf wars I use 1/4" Plexiglas sheets for shields on my big mill, Taig lathe and Taig mill. Just make sure they are removable, do not obstruct table movement and are back 12" or so from the cutting area so you don't get extreme ricochet off the shield. My Taig lathe is on riser block and I have a plastic pan underneath spanning from front to back. My motor is completely enclosed in a box with a furnace filter making up one side (see yesterday's post). Never use compressed air around metalworking equipment unless you absolutely have no alternative. Use brushes. I use a thick round brush and several different paint brushes. That way you control where the swarf goes at all times. Ken Jenkins ------- Date: Sun, 14 Apr 2002 15:32:20 EDT From: TRTDESIGNS1999x~xxCS.COM Subject: Re: Backlash This is a hard one to describe. For lathes you'll notice that when you dial your cross slide in towards the part the slack will be taken out. If you cut the O.D. of the part everything will work fine. But if you dial your cross slide past the O.D. of your part and then dial back to your O.D. you could be in for it. You must make sure your slack is out before starting a cut. To do this dial back in to your number to make sure slack is out. Also you need to detemine how far you must go back and forth for this to happen. You can do this by grabbing the cross slide and pull it back and forth tyou will see what I'm talking about. About mills!!! I've seen guys cutting on conventional mills for years who still get into trouble wondering if they are climb cutting or conventional cutting. Let me see if I can explain a climb cut to you. If I where to finish the inside of a square box I would climb cut because I would get a better finish. But I would only shave off a couple of thou's so as not to pull the cutter into my corners and scrape the part. So looking down at the square box, let's say I started on the right side of the inside of the box, somewhere in the center of the first leg of the box. I would carefully feed to my finish dimension and then start feeding in the "Y" direction (towards the back of the machine). Then to my left, then back towards you, then to the right, then past the original stop where you started and then off. Somtimes it's better to end a cut in the corner so as not to show the blending that occurs. Notice that when doing this your cutter appears to be cutting into the part. Like its walking along the wall. Maybe someone else can help out on explaining this. Like I said it's most important. Good luck, Terry ------- Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2002 00:34:35 -0400 From: Stan Stocker Subject: Re: Backlash Hi Vince; All convention screw / nut combinations require some freedom of motion to work. There also has to be some play between the dials and bearing surfaces of the shaft where it mounts to the table, or it wouldn't be able to move. If you move an axis in 0.100 against an indicator, and then back the axis out 0.100 by the dial, you'll see the indicator move some smaller amount. Probably 0.085 to 0.095 if the nut on the axis is adjusted to some reasonable degree. The difference in the dials versus the actual motion is the backlash. If you watch closely, you'll notice the dial shows travel before the indicator shows actual table movement. To get the result you expect, you move the axis out past the final location, then move it back in to the target dial reading. This is called crossing the backlash. In the above example, if you move the table out about 0.15, then back in to the desired reading, the indicator will show the reading you expect. You either get into the habit of crossing backlash, or get a DRO. You want to cross the backlash in such a way that the slack taken up is in the direction the cutting force will be applied, or the cutting force will move the axis until the backlash is taken up. In CNC applications, ball screws are popular as a way of eliminated screw/nut backlash, along with bearings in the screw to table mount to eliminate end play on the screw itself. Unfortunately, ball screws have such low friction that you can't use them in manual applications, the table just creeps. In CNC applications, the holding torque of the stepper motor or servo motor prevents this. Hope this answers your question, Stan ------- Date: Wed, 15 May 2002 14:00:15 -0400 From: "Daniel Munoz" Subject: machining hexagonal rods I would like to simulate bolt heads, on an aluminium plate. The idea is to use a hexagonal bar, and part it with the lathe to make both a precise cut length and also have a little tiny metal part centered left by the parting tool that I will use to put the bolt head in a precisely drilled hole in the plate. Ok, nothing wrong with that I suppose. But I want to have aluminium heads, or at least white metal heads. It is easy to find small hexagonal brass rod (did I say I want to make REALLY SMALL bolt heads, 1/16 diameter or less), but it is the wrong color and also VERY expensive. Miniature metal parts for model makers is not an option, I need a huge quantity of bolt heads. So my question is : How to machine hexagonal rod in any metal, in particular aluminium ? I can imagine two ways: 1) start from a round rod, and flatten each side one by one. easy to imagine, but I guess not so easy to lock in position without bending problems while machining a long rod (say, 6"). It is easy to make very small lengths and avoid bending on the mill using the rotary table and the lathe chuck, but what about long lengths ? 2) cut many close parallels 60° grove each side of a plate at half thickness, thus making a rod when the opposite groove is cut and separated from the plate. The question is: Where to find a 60° end mill !? Does that exist ? Is it silly ? Any other ideas or comments ? Many thanks, Daniel ------- Date: Wed, 15 May 2002 15:21:04 -0400 From: RichD Subject: Re: machining hexagonal rods Dan: I have always used a gear type indexer to make model bolt and nut hex or square heads. The head is usually cut before the final parting off operation. Each face has to be done one at a time. Slow. Now, however, I use a Sherline cnc'd mill to do this much quicker. Each size needed is made into a small program and the stock is placed vertically in a vice. Using the side of an endmill, all faces are cut continuously in one go. Several vices or a fixture holding several parts can be used to do multiple parts in one program. You will be replacing finished parts as the machine is working on the next part. RichD ------- Date: Wed, 15 May 2002 19:57:19 EDT From: jratcli256x~xxaol.com Subject: Re: machining hexagonal rods Daniel: Don't know how serious you are about making these bolt heads. You say you need a large number of them. Have you considered instrument hardware? Or watch makers hardware? Found a site on the web at www.antrininc.com/antrin-minatures that manufacture this type of hardware. It has some general information and phone numbers. They may even have stock items that would work for you. Mass produced stock items may not be too expensive. Regards John Ratcliffe ------- Date: Wed, 15 May 2002 21:03:53 -0400 From: "Daniel Munoz" Subject: RE: machining hexagonal rods Thanks ! Another very interesting link. I need to dig a little in those catalogs. Still for now I cannot find hexagonal aluminium rod in very small scales anywhere. I know that there's some in brass for modeler supplies, but at a too high price for me. Almost 1$ an inch is way too expensive. Here's more details about what I want to do. I should have started by that first, but didn't want to bother. I want to simulate steel plates, assembled with bolts on their edges (various sizes of bolt heads), at scale 1/35. For that, I have found aluminium plates of the exact thickness (scaled to 1/35) I needed, and I want to simulated all the bolt heads. I estimate the need is 200 to 300 bolt heads. As I need to dispose the heads precisely on a specific pattern on the edges of the plates, I intend to drill holes through a metal pattern gauge, then glue the tiny hexagonal bar section to simulate the bolt into the hole using the little pin left by the parting tool in the lathe as a center. Finding a source of aluminium hexagonal rod to cut them on the lathe at the proper height, or machining the rods myself, was the idea. As it is for model making, and not an investment for a long run production, I don't want to invest on specific tools too expensive. Neither I want to cut the bolt heads one by one using the rotary table ! I'm not that mad ;-) Thank you all for your advice or ideas. Daniel. ------- Date: Thu, 16 May 2002 01:47:40 -0700 From: "Mark Iennaco" Subject: Re: machining hexagonal rods I haven't drawn aluminium (i've done sliver), although I know it was a ductile (drawable) metal. However between the comments about the machinability of drawable aluminum, and that you are only doing a few hundreed it seems less than optimum for your needs. I was mostly trying to think out of 'the box' as I keep getting the feeling that trying to machine a fine hex rod out of aluminum is going to be it's own nightmare. It may be easier out of mild steel. Other solutions that come to mind are: Make a hex nail head die. This is a pair of steel pieces that have a hole slightly smaller than the wire to be used drilled half in each, that has an indention the shap of the desired head in it at the end. You put the ware in with a little extra sticking out and whack it with a hammer to form the head. These are easy to make for round heads. Hex heads will be a bit trickier. Chemical etching comes to mind (the hex pattern is simple enough that hand painting the resist should be doable). perhaps the simplest Make them out of brass. and send them out for plating. Other Ideas? ------- Date: Thu, 16 May 2002 20:09:17 +1000 From: "Charlie Lear" Subject: RE: machining hexagonal rods On Thu, 16 May 2002 00:03:55 -0400, Daniel Munoz wrote: >Marcus: CNC is not an option for me. But I'm going to think about the >indexer idea. The Sherline index block set make me think about some >possibilities... Daniel: Why not make some hard, flat steel jaws for your bench vice? Aluminium rod squishes very easily - with a hex block on the end of the rod to provide indexing, and spacers on the vice jaws to squash it an equal amount, I think you could easily produce a quantity of hex rod 3" at a time. You could even chuck it by the round bit left on the end for parting, without worrying about throwing away "good material". In fact, you could probably cobble something together from a couple of bits of steel angle to slip in the vice, and not bother about making smooth jaws at all. Just a thought. Cheers Charlie ------- Date: Thu, 16 May 2002 07:56:21 -0700 From: "Marcus & Eva" Subject: Re: machining hexagonal rods Hi Daniel: If you're going to use the indexer method, you might want to consider using a double toothed flycutter to cut the flats. Think of two saws mounted on an arbor with the right space between them for the dimension of the hex across the flats. Instead of the saws, the flycutter has two tips with the right space between them. Now you need to index only three times at 120 degrees, and will cut two flats per pass. If you have a small motor and can rig the unit onto your lathe cross slide, so much the better. You can easily rig up the spindle on the lathe for indexing, either by drilling three holes in the pulley, or by clamping the head of the drawbolt in a vise blocked up to the right height. Now you can work quite efficiently, and make your 300 odd parts in a day or so. If you prefer to do the flats on the mill, then I recommend finding out by trial and error, just how long a hex you can cut before you have problems with vibration. You may be able to hex enough of the bar to cut several bolt heads off at one time. Cheers Marcus ------- Date: Mon, 09 Sep 2002 19:33:04 -0000 From: "volzmechatronic" Subject: Re: Felt Wiper Stock: The Two Deals In Metal_Shapers, "volzmechatronic" wrote: > For those of you, like us Lewis owners, who need to make wipers for > their slideways, and for those that might need to renew theirs on > other brands, the same felt that Logan uses for their replacement > kits is available at McMaster. (NOTE: If you need these wipers for a > Logan, buy the kits from Logan since they are cut to the correct > shape AND, at least for my 10 x 24 lathe, come complete with new > clamps...and they're inexpensive.) Logan uses the F-11 grade gray > felt, Item #87985K2, which is 3/16-inch thick and costs $16.38 (+ > S/H) for a 12-inch wide piece that's 72-inches long. > URL: http://www.mcmaster.com > If there are enuf of you that want some of this felt, I could order a > foot of it, divide it up into 32 pieces (3-inch x 9-inch) that will > fit into a standard large envelope, stuff it into the stamped-pre- > addressed envelopes that you send me, each marked with "FELT" at the > lower left hand corner, you stick in a GW Green-Back Buck for me, and > ZIP it to me. (Geez, I'll become an instant millionaire > overnite...and just think, I can drive to the Post Office 31 times. > (I'd be keeping a piece for myself.)) Don't send nuthin' yet--lets > see if there are enuf of you--I sure as heck don't want to be stuck > with 5,000 years worth of felt for my Lewis. Art (Houston) Sorry that it took so long to finally be able to send out the wiper felt that I purchased from McMaster. (See Msg 1254 attached below.) Instead of just buying a 12-inch x 72-inch piece I doubled my order and obtained a piece 24-inch x 72-inch. I have divided this up into 16 pieces that are 9-inch x 12-inch. I have reserved two of these pieces for myself. I have reserved 3 of these pieces to be cut into 9 smaller 4-inch x 9-inch pieces. Thus, there are 11 of the 9x12's and 9 of the 4x9's available. Distribution will be made first to those who requested felt previous to this message, both on this board and those who sent me Emails directly. Until these previous requests are filled, no new requests will be accepted. I will contact, today, those who previously told me to "keep some felt for them". Initial distribution will be limited to ONE of the "Two Deals" below: DEAL ONE. One piece 4-inch x 9-inch. One US GW--$1--one buck or USPS Money Order; NO checks. Send one large size 4 x 9 envelope that you have pre-addressed and stamped with a 37-cent stamp. Mark the bottom left front side with: FELT. Please include a legible copy of your Email address so that I can Email you when I mail your felt. A piece of 4x9 felt "just fits", with a little bit of shoving, into one of these size envelopes. (Your total cost: $1 + your $.37 stamp = $1.37) Or-- DEAL TWO. One piece 9-inch x 12-inch. Four US GW's--$4--4 bucks or USPS Money Order; NO checks. I will provide the large mailing envelope AND the $0.83 First Class Postage. Please send a legible mailing address and a legible Email address and tell me you want a piece of 9x12 FELT. If you're a "good guy" you'll send me a pre- adddressed "self-sticky" label that I can just stick onto the envelope. If you do this DON'T cut-up a USPS "Priority Mail" label to make one: they will "know" and then will want me to pay "Priority Mail" rates. (I'll know too...as I print your address, by hand, onto the envelope. :-( ) (Your total cost: $4. Your equivalent cost-- since you are really getting three 4x9 pieces--is: $1.33 per each of the three 4x9 pieces. As you all can readily see, I will soon become insanely rich...and then run for Congress on the Capitalist Party ticket. Art (Houston) ------- Date: Mon, 09 Sep 2002 16:14:50 -0500 From: jrw Subject: Re: Re: Felt Wiper Stock: The Two Deals Art: I was beginning to think you had dropped off the face of the earth as I had not seen any of your great comments on the web. Your felt is a good deal. Several years ago tried to replace the wipers on my Clausing/Colchester lathe and there are a total of six and I was quoted about $68. When they came at the dealers, the price was $68 each- so I left without the wipers. I made some new ones from moly filled nylon like the originals and have since purchased and received some commercial wiper material from a company called Kabel-Schlep. Very nice material but the installation may present problems. Joe Williams ------- Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2002 23:08:58 -0000 From: "Art Volz " Subject: Fwd: An interesting new Lathe Found this message posted at another group, but it was so interesting that I re-posted it here. This is the kind of educational program needed all across America. (You might want to post a copy of this, with your comments, to your most honorable senator or rep.) Note that these kids aren't just making lead hammers and bent metal bookends-- they're making working CNC machines...and they'll even make them for you...and for sale! (Can't you just imagine the comedy act of Schumer & Sillery, and their union buds, objecting to this monstrous illegal child labor? "It's the children, remember...the ones in the village!?!?" Did you hear about one of Smilie-Schum's latest photo- byte gigs at a NYC park where he complained about wild geese congregating (sic) and pooping?) Anyway, in the other 49 states, a perfect example of appropriate middle and high school training for future REAL engineers--NOT the pseudo-scientist type. Art (day-dreamin'...ag'in...in Houston North) --- In Lathe_2000x~xxyahoogroups.com, "cba_melbourne <"Chris.Banningerx~xxo...>" wrote: Currently manufactured by a mechanical training school in Basel, Switzerland. Website is German and a bit hard to navigate, price is on request. Obviously more a training project than a business. It is a 120x450mm (8.5x18") machine with some very interesting features like geared head, lead screw inside the bed and protected from swarf, endstop to halt automatic feed, spindle with three high precision rolling bearings 55022 etc. Made in 2 versions, conventional and vfd drive. Chris http://www.lwbasel.ch/1_lehrwerkstatt/1_frameset.html --- End forwarded message --- ------- Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2002 21:43:19 -0600 From: "Mario L Vitale" Subject: Re: Fwd: An interesting new Lathe Art: Wow, that web site is fascinating, and not just a little disturbing...that it's someone else doing it, not us! While I don't have anything against them, for some reason, I could never get too excited about these programs that teach high school kids how to build robots. Now I know why. If your going to build something, why not something that can do useful work! I guess it's like the difference between solving one of these mathematical puzzles (that bore me) as opposed to figuring out what size gears I'll need to get a 1750 rpm motor to move my milling machine table at ten inches a minute!!! Mario ------- Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2002 04:35:43 -0000 From: "Art Volz " Subject: Re: Fwd: An interesting new Lathe Mario-- EXACTLY!!! Several years ago...when I was visiting relatives in Lansing...I took a day-trip to my first alma mater: Notre Dame du Lac in South Bend. The School of Engineering's machine shop--where I got my only perfect grade at ND making a 0-1, 1-2-inch micrometer--is long gone. Engineering has reverted to the middle 1800's where James Nasmyth-- making things by figuring things out with grease 'neath his nails-- and the "REAL" engineers of the time in ties and coat, wearing white gloves to protect the finish on their pretty fingers. "Don't need any machine shop learning labs today: just formulas and computers and calculate anything that needs knowing." (The main reason is that the academic engineers don't really know how to design or make anything...and...tests are so much more clinically clean when just numbers and formulas are used.) I've just invested...took me a while to research what I needed...in about 12 used books (most 1950 or before), on punch-presses, blanking/fine-blanking, stamping, forming, etc. There isn't any new info out there--NO info in the Houston Public Libraries--and very little at University of Houston's Library. Our techcical past--even the knowledge that it ever existed--is in pre-mortem total meltdown. Interestingly, many of the tomes that I'm acquiring are Library "de- acquistions" made by librarians totally incompetent in anything technological. This evening I checked my just received spring schedule for the local community college. Wanted to see if I could take courses in German so I could better correspond with der volks from Switzerland. German? Isn't that one of those non-diversity Euro languages? For Shame!!! Art (Houston: shop time) ------- Date: Sat, 22 Feb 2003 15:51:34 -0000 From: "crankdisk " Subject: Re: sherline dealers in canada [TOPIC NOW COST OF BROKERAGE FEES FROM U.S.] [FOR A COMPLETE LIST OF CANADIAN SHERLINE DEALERS, SEE SHERLINE HOME PAGE] Hi: I bought my complete setup from Fundy Grinding in Nova Scotia. They have a web site, but it doesn't carry their Sherline list. Contact them by email at salesx~xxfundygrinding.com. They were very helpful and would provide any Sherline item. I visited them to buy the main items, but since then had several items sent to me without any problems. They also have an enormous supply of everything else related to metal working. Be aware that anything you buy from the US comes with a hidden cost. I have had several items sent from the US with no duty to pay, but the items have to pass through a customs brokerage before being delivered to a Canadian customer. The brokers assess and collect the GST/PST owed and tack on a substantial fee. I had to pay a $30.00 fee on a $10.00 item - even though the shipping company assured me that they would pay all fees, they said brokerage was out of their control. Lesson learned: buy from a Canadian source that imports for you. Cheers, Bill ------- Date: Sat, 22 Feb 2003 11:08:39 -0500 From: John Kowalchuk Subject: Re: Re: sherline dealers in canada [TOPIC NOW COST OF BROKERAGE FEES FROM U.S.] >The brokers assess and collect the >GST/PST owed and tack on a substantial fee. I had to pay a $30.00 >fee on a $10.00 item Canada Post provides the same service for $5.00 John Kowalchuk maker of mutes/horns/canoes/paddles/bikes Oshawa, Ontario http://home.ca.inter.net/~horn1 Canadians don't surf the net, we paddle it. ----------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 22 Feb 2003 11:18:24 -0700 From: Simon Parent Subject: RE: Re: sherline dealers in canada [TOPIC NOW COST OF BROKERAGE FEES FROM U.S.] I am new to the list but read the post for quite a while. I am in Canada and often buy from US model trains and tools. Because most Sherline dealers have the items shipped directly from the Sherline factory, it doesn't make any difference. I got caught once for a $45 brokerage fee over a $60 order. The worst carrier to use is UPS, unless you have an account with them. I usually request to be shipped either US mail or US express mail. If they don't want to, I don't buy from them (ex. Harbour Freight). If it is shipped US mail, Canada post have a fix rate of 5 dollars another tax) but still much cheaper than $45 from UPS. If shipped from US express mail, I usually receive my package through Purolator. They use PBB as brokers and their fee is $10 which is still reasonable in some case. I usually don't buy small amount at the time (unless I really need something right away) but wait to have a decent order, that helps spread the cost. Simon in Alberta ------- Date: Sat, 22 Feb 2003 22:08:18 -0000 From: "parryj2002 " Subject: Re: sherline dealers in canada Just to help with the shipping into Canada issues. UPS charges brokerage on a sliding scale to do all the entry prep paperwork. On a US$20.00 item you are looking at CAN$6.25 plus GST, plus PST and the actual shipping cost. For an item costing $30.00 the entry prep fee jumps to CAN$17.25 plus applicable taxes and shipping. These fees are available on the UPS website. Just remember that you also have to pay tax on the entry prep fees as well as the shipping charges.If you order from a dealer outside of your province he will not charge you the PST unless you reside in a province with a harmonized sales tax. For large items such as mills/lathes/combo packages it is better to go with UPS, as the brokerage fee levels out at CAN$50-58 for any shipments valued at CAN$1000 - 5000. I agree with previous posts that it is better to use Canada post to bring small items in and just pay the $5.00 brokerage and PST/GST if applicable. Regards, John Parry www.precisionscalereplicas.com ------- Date: Sun, 23 Feb 2003 12:41:41 -0800 From: Mark Subject: Bringing Sherline and other goods into Canada UPS: Probably 30.00, no matter what anyone says. My first time burned was on a sherline item, about 10 years ago. That's 30.00 MINIMUM. Fedex: Was ok, but now they add 12.00 and up, and (guess what) if you don't live in a Fedex city, they dump it in the mail. USPS (Post Office): If they use priority, you get a bill later, including brokerage and handling charges. Frankly, Air Parcel Post / Airmail seems to work the best - quick enough for me, and best rates. Canada Post DOES levy a 5.00 charge, but apparently only when their "franchised agents" are involved . I live in a small community, pick up directly at the PO and guess what - no 5.00 charge. So, UPS Canada are the bad guys (they blame Canada Customs, but that's BS - it's UPS Canada's policy of treating "every" shipment as a commercial one, and therefore subject to "formal" customs clearance through "their" broker....) mark ------- Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2003 09:43:49 -0500 From: "Kevin P. Martin" Subject: RE: Re: sherline dealers in canada Having an account with them (or, more specifically, their brokerage division) only reduces the cost a bit. You still have to pay their brokerage fee ($15-$55 depending on shipment value), what you avoid is their "disbursement" fee (I think that's what they call it...) which they charge if they have to pay the government and collect from you later. Of course, if you *do* have an account with them, you must keep funds on deposit with them on which they pay no interest... The post office is definitely the way to go for small-value parcels (under C$1600). Kevin Martin ------- Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2003 08:46:35 -0600 From: "J. Gregory Booth" Subject: Re: Bringing Sherline and other goods into Canada Dear Mark and others, I have several Sherline customers in Canada. As others have said, UPS is very expensive. I have had the best results with Insured AirMail Parcel Post or Global Priority Mail from the US Post Office. Canada Post uses a third-party courier to handle their Global Priority Mail deliveries. The last order sent by Global Priority was delivered by Purolator Courier. J. Gregory Booth Antique Clockworks, Ltd. Sherline Products - Starrett WW Colletts Howard Miller Sales & Service Loretto, MN www.AntiqueClockworksLtd.com ------- Date: Tue, 01 Apr 2003 21:55:23 -0800 From: Keith Green Subject: Re: Speeds, feeds, and cut depth Original Message ----- From: John Brock To: sherlinex~xxyahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2003 2:40 PM Subject: [sherline] Speeds, feeds, and cut depth Does anyone have a good reference for basic speeds, feeds, and depth of cut for different common materials like mild steel, aluminum, brass, etc? I'm not a professional so I've been doing this kind of hit and miss. It's a lot of messing around and more broken tools or damaged parts than I'd care to admit. I have a Sherline 2000 with the FlashCut CNC stepper set up. I've been using DeskProto and VisualMill for my primary CAM applications and like them both. John Brock Hi, I'm a machinist by profession and consequently my machines are full-size but my rules should generally give you a starting point. When you run rotating equipment, you should think in surface feet per minute(how many feet of material/cutter pass by in one minute). The formula I was taught in school 10 years ago and still serves me well is this: 4 x the cutting speed (cs) of the material, divided by the diameter of the rotating element = the rpm you should run. 4 is an approximation of pi with a little safety factor built in. The cutting speed of mild steel with a HSS bit is said to be about 100sfpm. Aluminum varies but will generally be in the 250 to 350 range. 4340 heat-treated steel is about 50 sfpm, stainless about 25 or less. 4140 would be a little less than 4340; say about 40 sfpm. Thermoplastics run about 300, while thermoset plastics are about 150 to 250 sfpm. OK. So you've got a piece of 1" od mild steel in your lathe (or a 1" HSS endmill in your mill). 4 x 100 = 400 rpm. As you get close to the center, speed should increase to retain the surface finish. Bear in mind these are starting points; you change things up or down according to the feel you will develop for machining conditions. As far as feeds are concerned, lathes and mills differ more. Rules of thumb for the lathe are thus; larger nose radius on the tool allows heavier feeds but will require more rigidity in the machine and setup, while smaller nose radii allow deeper cuts but require finner feed and will generally not last as long as larger radii tools. Manufacturers of indexible tips suggest not to exceed more than half the nose radius in feed. eg. .015 nose rad. = .007/rev max feed. For milling, we talk in inches/minute(IPM) and chip-per-tooth(CPT). The rough formula I use is this; IPM feed setting = rpm x (the desired cpt. x number of teeth in the cutter). You have to figure out optimum rates for your particular machine. Start out with .0001 cpt or less and work your way up. Cutters with more than 2 flutes require you to be more carefull with the cpt as cutting forces are more of a factor with these (they are higher). Your 1" endmill (let's say it's a 2-flute or slot drill) is doing 400 rpm in mild steel. We try it out first at .002 cpt.; 400 x.002 = 8in./min feed. We're looking for a smooth cut; minimal vibration, shaking, flexing of the cutter, movement of the workpiece, etc. If the cutter sqeaks as it takes a cut, you may want to increase the feed a little of maybe slow down the rpm some. If you get flexing, jerking or other undesired movement, your cpt may be excessive for the current setup. Do not use depths of cut exceeding half the cutter diameter and even less for tools under, say, 3/16 diameter. 2 flute tools will generally cut to the designated size, while 4, 6 or 8-flute tools will generally cut bigger than their labelled size. There's more, of course, but that should set you on the road. good luck keith ------- Date: Fri, 04 Apr 2003 18:21:08 -0800 From: Keith Green Subject: Re: What to look for in a bench grinder for grinding lathe tools Part of my job in the machine shop where i work hs been tool-grinding. I would think you should get at least a 3/4 hp grinder, 1/2 hp minimum. The stones are the biggest factor. I've found none better than the Norton wheels with the 'SG' designation. A little pricey, but they grind quicker, cooler and need fewer dressings than the regular aluminum oxide ones. The SG wheels are blue in color. Aluminum oxide wheel suitable for grinding HSS bits are white. 60 grit, vitrified, with a bond designation of 'J' in either case. No need for variable speed. For grinding carbide, you'll need a silicon carbide stone. Start with the HSS, though. Carbide will drive you batty if you try it to start. keith ------- NOTE TO FILE: There was a very long and convoluted discussion about tachometers (to measure spindle revolutions per minute) on the Sherline group called "Subject: Re: Lathe/mill tachometer" in early April 2003. There were some simple ideas like the one following message and many complex ones that you will have to read in the archives. Me, I'd just buy an inexpensive tach for model airplane engines from a good hobby store and leave the complex electronics to others -- assuming I really wanted (needed?) to measure rpm that accurately. ------- Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2003 11:50:53 -0000 From: "Richard" Subject: Tachometer the easy way A very old method is to use a pm motor as a generator. Radio shack sells small pm motors for as little as one dollar and potentiometers for around two dollars. Connect the outside terminals of a 10K pot across the motor terminals. Connect a digital voltmeter across the center terminal and one outside terminal of the pot. Drive the motor shaft from a source you know the speed of and adjust the pot so that the voltmeter reads a voltage equal to the RPM of the driving unit. The voltmeter will now measure any speed correctly as long as you don't change the pot setting. Now you have a neat, cheap and portable speed measuring set up. These motor/generators are very linear. Richard ------- Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2003 10:58:00 -0400 From: "Bill Hardin" Subject: RE: "Standard" Countersink Angle Original Message----- >>From: Rodent [mailto:daweaselx~xxswbell.net] Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2003 10:24 AM To: Atlas / Craftsman Group Subject: [atlas_craftsman] "Standard" Countersink Angle Is 82 degrees the normal included angle on hardware store variety machine screws? I want to order a set of countersinks, but I don't have a way to accurately measure the angle on the #4-#8 screws I typically use. << For the common, garden variety flat head screws, 82 degrees is standard. When you go to sheet metal, the bottom of the taper may extend through to the piece being screwed to. Therefore, the second standard, mostly for attaching sheet metal, is 100 degrees. Bill Hardin www.homeshopsupply.com Craftsman 109 Lathe Support ------- Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2003 11:23:08 -0500 From: Jon Elson Subject: Re: "Standard" Countersink Angle > Is 82 degrees the normal included angle on hardware > store variety machine screws? Yes, I think so. You can hold the countersink and a screw in front of each other and see if the angles look the same. There are 100 and 110 degree flat-head screws used to put thin covers over electronic housings, but they are generally special-order items. Jon ------- Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2003 23:41:11 EDT From: n8as1x~xxaol.com Subject: Re: "Standard" Countersink Angle make em out of 01 drill rod ...harden in oil at cooked carrot color,then draw x~xx400 in ur oven for an hour & then slab off 1/2 of diameter at the taper w/ grinder.......single flute cntrsnks are chatterless!...if u have milling capabilities , mill flutes ...if not opposite each other ,so much the better ....run them at 1/2 of hi speed sfm best wishes docn8as ------- Date: Wed, 04 Jun 2003 06:36:30 -0000 From: "benchlathe" Subject: Re: Same story, different ending- but a different view [PARTING OUT MACHINE TOOLS AND TOOL COLLECTORS] In atlas_craftsmanx~xxyahoogroups.com, Rodent wrote: > We see the same thing with motorcycles...It just pisses us off when someone takes a complete but rough bike, with matching frame and engine numbers, and parts the thing out to make a buck. > Original Message ----- > > > On a more serious note, I've noticed lots of Atlas/Craftsman lathes -- especially the 6x18 -- varieties sell to breakers... selling the parts for three to five times your investment within a month is quite lucrative! Think high five or low six digit net income per year based on an investment of a few thousand dollars!... Yeah, and they throw away whatever doesn't sell...Those folka are as bad as "collectors", people who will never use the thing. and may, if they are stupid, "restore" it in such a way as to render it useless thereafter. Smart ones won't, as even new paint drops the "collector value" by a factor of 5 or even more, depending on the item. Suffice it to say, I don't like it either way.<<< Guys, guys... At the risk of being labeled a 'flamer' (Hmm, that didn't come out right...) the arguments you make hold very little water and sound like envy and sour grapes talking. Were it not for individuals parting out motorcycles, lathes, or whatever, there would be a lot (and I mean A LOT!!) fewer decent parts out there at reasonable prices to help repair or restore OUR machines. If hobbyists relied strictly on parts from machines wrecked or damaged beyond repair, we would be getting into fist fights for the priviledge of paying big bucks for the few meager used parts available so we wouldn't have to pay those outrageous prices for new parts (x~xx$%! those manufacturers, how dare they make a profit on the backs of us little guys!). Granted, it does seem a shame when someone takes a perfectly good machine and parts it out, but what that tells me is there is plenty of them to go around- if the machine were that rare and valuable, it would be worth more complete than apart. People who were going to use it or restore it would be the ones ending up with it, not the 'breakers'. Additionally, with fewer machines, the ones remaining are worth that much more. I can't speak for vintage motorcycle owners, but I do have some knowledge of Atlas 618 lathes. I co-own a 618 and am trying to purchase one for my very own, so I tend to watch auction results for these machines and parts pretty closely. I have never seen anyone part out a Craftsman or 618 lathe for 'three to five times' what they paid for it, unless they paid less than about $200, which almost never happens on any machine, complete or otherwise, with any potential whatsoever. A mediocre but complete 618 with few if any accessories generally sells for at least $400-500, while average condition lathes typically sell in the $500-800 range. A really nice 618 usually goes for $800-1000, with well-equipped and/or pristine set-ups in the $1000+ range. Using the '3-5 times' factor would yield parted-out values of anywhere from $1200 to $5000+. Nice to dream about, but pretty unrealistic when actual auction results are examined. A more realistic factor is '1/3 to 2 times', which means that a few thousand dollars invested would, at best, net you a few thousand dollars. Believe me, if I could invest 'a few thousand dollars for a high five to low six figure annual income' parting out lathes, I sure wouldn't be wasting my time working 8-5 for someone else- besides, if it was that easy, everyone and their lazy brother would be doing it, not just the enterprising few. On the subject of wasted parts, my experience with the 618 lathes has been that very few parts, if any, seem to go to waste- nearly everything seems to sell unless it is over-priced, common as dirt, or just plain junk (and there sure is a lot of over-priced, common as dirt junk that sells too!). I do have a solution for anyone who dislikes what the other guy is doing- put your money where your mouth is, and outspend him. Make him pay so dearly for everything that he just gives up and goes away. Of course, the truth is you'd be broke pretty quick, since no one can buy them all. On the other hand, you'd have the satisfaction of knowing you saved a few of those treasures from ending up in the 'wrong' hands. Benchlathe ------- Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2003 23:15:49 -0500 From: "jerdal" Subject: Re: Re: Same story, different ending- but a different view > I'm not the one who's being intolerant here- I have nothing against > collectors, but you sure seem to. PROUD to be intolerant of dumb collectors. I do not consider intolerance to be a sin in every case...I am intolerant of people who wish to harm me or my family....of vicious dogs....most flavors of mosquitos....and, in this case, people who buy tools they have no idea how to use because a particular name is on the tool, and pay whatever is asked. Seriously, some tools are so "in demand" by collectors that it is hard to get them. I was at a sale where there was a partly assembled 618 lathe in dubious condition (Atlas content). I was interested, but the minimum bid was half the asking, or in this case $250. I considered $500 for a taken-apart machine too much, despite its description as, yes, "a collectible machine in restorable condition". That, however obnoxious, was not the main issue. Entering the basement, which was packed with tools, I found three collectors, one each for three brands of tool, busily adding to their piles and handing each other the "wrong" brands. They were discussing "what was this used for?" while holding up mics and indicators, surface gages, etc..... Sure, they are *entitled* to, have a *right* to, buy up everything as long as their money holds out. That is harmless, of sorts, compared to people who believe that the more they pay for their vehicle, the more of the road they are entitled to "own", or the ones who believe they can pay for the privilege to pollute my air as much as they wish to. But it sure doesn't help us, so we find ourselves in "systemic conflict" with them, unable to buy tools to use, because of the 'dog in manger" collectors, who won't use them ,and prevent others from using them. The end point of this game is that all the tools will be owned by people who don't use them, at prices that are reminiscent of "fine art". Rights be d&&&ed, it stinks. They can collect as much as they want without me squeaking, so long as they don't drive prices to really stupid levels, or destroy the tools they collect in "restoration". I am already seeng the ramp-up of tool prices at sales, due to ebay and to "rare collectibles". Kinda like painting fine woodwork in a building...there ought to be a punishment to fit the crime. Jerrold ------- Date: Sat, 14 Jun 2003 09:58:34 -0700 From: Don Rogers Subject: Re: Removing woodruff key [TAIGTOOLS GROUP] >How I remove keys: 1) (best) use a pin punch of the diameter of the width (or less) than the key. Punch down on one end, and it should rotate the key out of the slot (semicircular woodruff key) Obviously, use an appropriate size hammer, and not enough force to do any damage to the shaft - just light taps. < Nick, it very seldom that I disagree with you, but on this I must. Any small pin punch will tend to mushroom the edge of the key. The best tool is a well sharpened screwdriver whose blade is slightly narrower than the key. Place the blade along the key, and then rocking it just a degree or so, provide your gentle taps to start it rocking out of its grove. Make sure there is no burs on the edge of the key before you start. The screw on the Taig is not very stout on the keyed end, so I recommend that you pull the screw, and then support it under the key with a wood block on your bench. Less likely to bend it that way. In case the key is really stuck, you can use a small cold chisel, and tap in an up direction at the front edges of the key. Make sure you are not damaging the shaft. You can usually pop them out like this, but you will need a new replacement key. Setting and removing a woodruff key was one of the first things I was taught on my apprenticeship, and one of the last things I mastered. The biggest mistake is hammering a tight key in place. It make removing them a nightmare at times. On the other hand, you don't want one to be a slip fit either. Don ------- Date: Sat, 2 Aug 2003 21:10:58 EDT From: LouD31M066x~xxaol.com Subject: Re:atlas_craftsman lathes [YES, USE YOUR MACHINES] Today for lack of anything else I wanted to do and humidity I went to garage sale where lathes were offered for sale...and while there met a fellow who had a lathe. First was ten inch change gear plain bearing machine with several chucks, face plate, taper jig, mica undercutter mess of bits and odds and ends. Priced at 1000. Machine and attachments seem to have last been oiled and cleaned circa 1940...dirt and rust abundant. Next machine was a small bench six inch set up for shop work. In family for years, but, stored where moisture and dirt were more common than oil and some covering. Owner did not understand meaning of phrase "screw cutting engine lathe" and used it only to make bushings. He did not feel confident enough to use change gear set up and thus limited himself to a fraction of the machine's uses. I will not harp on subject, but, lack of preventitive maintenance will come back to haunt you when you either sell or use your machine. I am amazed at how people on net and those I meet are so afraid of stretching to expand their potential with lathe no matter what their other accomplishments. I took a couple of 60 hour classes, but, I did not really learn until I had to do something on my own. The first attempts were pretty ugly. Learning from one's own mistakes when you really need something to come out right brings out your best efforts and better results. Louis ------- From: "Pat Wicker" Date: Sun Oct 5, 2003 6:07 pm Subject: RE: [gingery_machines] Re: I wonder how fast one could make t he lathe at 3-5hours a day? I probably averaged about 3-5 hrs a day on my lathe. I had the lathe up and running in about 4 mths. It took another couple of months to fine tune it and I had to re-make a couple of parts to get better precision. Today I routinely turn metal to a thousandth and on a good day .0001. While I was well equipped for woodworking tools the only power metalworking tool I used was a drill press. Also, I had not done any metalworking prior to taking on this project so I had a bit of a learning curve. I worked on the shaper from last August to this August before I was able to run it for the first time and mill the table. However, I lost about 4 months due to back surgery. Hope this helps to give you some idea of how long it takes. The thing I had to keep reminding myself of was that I was supposed to be doing this for fun and to not get too hung up on how long it took :-). Pat Wicker ------- From: "collegemachinist" Date: Mon Oct 6, 2003 8:33 pm Subject: Re: I wonder how fast one could make the lathe at 3-5hours a day? This also depends on your willingness to cheat and your overall skill. Cheating for me would be using JB weld instead of scraping. This is not wrong, it just bypasses learning a valuable skill. The skill depends on what types of hand work have you done before. I.E. have you filed to dead flat so close that surfaces stick without oil. Quality of hand tools. A good Starett, or if you can find them individula set tooth hacksaw blades speed any cutting. Quality of furnace. A good furnace melts better. Better pour planning fewer repours. Better mold making less metal work. Size of shop. I am severely handicapped in my current endevours. I have to pack and unpack a 48sf shed to work on anything. I would race you, but can barely spend 3-5 hours a week on any project if I am lucky. I hope to spend a few days working on "projects" at the end of the month, but probably only a day on the lathe, bummer. ------- From: "JohnW" Date: Tue Oct 7, 2003 11:38 am Subject: Re: I wonder how fast one could make the lathe at 3-5hours a day? I used it on my shaper. Rather than scraping the ram, I filed it close and then put some JB on the bottom and pressed it down on a sheet of wax paper on top of my table saw. The JB flattens out and give you a nice even and hopefully flat surface. I don't think of it as cheating but rather as going hi-tech. Google on "moglice". Its an epoxy mixed with moly and is being used to refinish the ways on worn out machines rather than regrinding them. Busy Bee tools has opened a store within a couple of hours drive. They have a granite surface plate on special. By next weekend I'll be giving scraping another shot. John ------- From: "collegemachinist" Date: Tue Oct 7, 2003 9:20 pm Subject: Re: I wonder how fast one could make the lathe at 3-5hours a day? The other reply was correct. On the lathe, you could fit your ways to bed, even carriage to ways, all the way up. The headstock could be fitted the same way. I'll leave it to you to figure out. But wax paper is necessary. it will ruin the lathe if you "glue" a piece in the wrong place. The CRS ways will only need finished on the edges, not the flat sides. Go for it, I personally think scraping will be a valuable skill. Some things look bad with fillers (i.e. gunsmithing if you ever go that way). Thomas ------- Date: Thu, 06 Nov 2003 12:47:23 -0000 From: "paul_probus" Subject: Re: Belt Guards In atlas_craftsmanx~xxyahoogroups.com, AtlasTV48 wrote: > I need a belt guard for a project that I just completed. Anyone > know of a source for generic belt guards. Metal or injection > molded plastic would work fine. Could you quickly fashion one from wood? Most belt guards that I have seen are pretty much custom made. Places to check, though, would be McMaster-Carr (www.mcmaster.com), Grainger (www.grainger.com ?) and Boston Gear. Paul ------- Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2003 09:42:01 -0500 From: "mertbaker" Subject: Re: Moron Beltguards If you can weld or hard solder, you can bend up a belt guard out of sheet metal. Or even hardware cloth, if the belts won't get wet & fling stuff. Mert ------- Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2003 08:31:46 -0800 From: "Patrick Lee Rooney" Subject: RE: Belt Guards I've built a number of guards over the years. Most recent was a guard for the shop compressor where air flow was critical. I used 1/8" cold rolled, 4" wide, to form the perimeter and give it some rigidity. Tig welded 16g sheet metal to the frame, and cut out a flywheel sized hole for air circulation, which I then covered with expanded lath. The production requirements were so unique, that I don't think I could have found one "off the shelf" to fit. If you have a wet saw, might want to consider a guard made from a non-corrosive material. We have a MK brick saw with SUBSTANTIAL cast aluminum blade and belt guards. They got so corroded on the inside, we epoxy coated them on the inside, and powder coated them on the outside. Alsoconsider operator safety. After a few hours of cutting, EVERYTHING is wet, including the ground the operator is standing on. Electricity and water..hummm. Good luck. Safety FIRST! Pat. ------- Date: Thu, 06 Nov 2003 16:52:37 -0000 From: "paul_probus" Subject: Re: Moron Beltguards I still vote for wood. Quick easy and cheap. Prime and paint with a good quality outdoor paint to match your saw and it should be good for a while. At least use the wood as a temporary solution. It will allow you to experiment with the best way to fasten a guard to the saw, perhaps modify it so that you only have to remove 1/2 of the guard if the belt slips off or whatever. If you then want to build a permanent one out of sheetmetal, then do so. Good luck, Paul ------- Date: Fri, 07 Nov 2003 04:16:05 -0500 From: bepurr Subject: Re: Belt Guards One could use fibreglass to make belt guards or similar items. Same material as used for auto body repairs. The forms, either male or female (your choice) can be easily made from wood, plaster of paris, and beeswax. The process, called hand lay-up, uses fibreglass cloth, and/or mat and activated resin. With some practise, one can make items which would be difficult to make with other materials. And besides, they are rust-proof. I have made bicycle chain guards, air conditioner covers, splash guards and covered up several rust holes in cars. Do this outside though. The liquid resin has an annoying smell. Give it a try. Bryan ------- Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2003 20:05:50 -0800 From: "rdarr" Subject: Re: Re: Belt Guards There is another way to acheive same results. It may even be easier than "hand laying" of fiber cloth/resin. There's an old product called "Plyfoam" board. You just cut to approx size amount needed and heat with heat lamp-it will conform to curves, angles, if needed. Apply resin and it retains form. This product is used in small boats, exp. aircraft, and the RV industry for sidewalls, wing components and other applications. It's very strong, so it may be possible that this could be your end product - without the need to make a mold of sorts. Russ Darr ------- Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2003 13:55:31 EST From: wanlikerx~xxaol.com Subject: (no subject) [PROBLEM HERE INVOLVED A SHERLINE BUT SIMILAR PROBLEMS CAN HAPPEN ON ANY MACHINE, ANY PROJECT] No happiness here. I was trying to remove the main lathe drive pulley set screw, and unfortunately used a ball end Allen wrench, and it broke, leaving the ball end stuck in the set screw. Any suggestions on how to remove this? I have tried pounding on the headstock with soft hammer to jar it out, also a magnet, a new wrench will not go in deep enough to turn the screw. SUGGESTIONS??????? thanks, bill ------- Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2003 19:33:07 -0000 From: "n2562001" Subject: Re: (no subject) Bill, If you can get the ball loose with a pick or small punch you may be able to blow it out with a high pressure air. Otherwise personally, I would just cut the pulley off with a hack saw since they are not very expensive. Jerry Kieffer ------- Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2003 20:03:32 -0000 From: "c_holm10017" Subject: Re: (no subject) Maybe superglue the broken wrench end to the broken ball end. ------- Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2003 12:22:00 -0800 From: "Marcus" Subject: Re: Re: (no subject) Hi Bill: You could try a small blob of quick set epoxy in the end of a little tube. A tube is better than a stick for this: you don't want to glue the whole works into place. You can fill the end of the tube, wipe the outside, then slide it into position, and push a wire down it to squirt out just what you need to stick the broken ball to the tube. The putty type of epoxy will be easier to handle for this application, but the goo should work too if you're careful. Worth a try before you get the hacksaw out. Cheers Marcus ------- Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2003 20:51:49 -0000 From: "lan_brooks" Subject: Re: (no subject) Bill, Sorry to hear about your bad luck. If this is the set-screw I am thinking of, it is at the bottom of a fairly deep hole. If none of the glue techniques work, I would suggest using a piece of rod or wire to determine the depth of the hole then marking this on the outside of the pulley. measure up 3/32" from that mark and mark the pulley and drill a 3/16" hole through the pulley on that mark. This should give you access to the head of the set screw and the broken off bit of allen wrench and you may be able to work the piece loose with a scribe or other pointy object. Since the hole is close to the center of the pulley, it should not cause it to be too much out of balance. If vibration gets too high you can put a couple of balance holes on the opposite side of the pulley. This should allow you to get the broken piece out and still save the pulley. The advantage of which would be the ability to make chips over the weekend. Replacing the pulley would be pretty much cosmetic at that point. Good luck, Lan brooks ------- Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2003 18:32:39 EST From: artrich999x~xxaol.com Subject: Re: (no subject) Bill: A trick that locksmiths use to remove broken keys is to use low voltage electricity to weld the broken part to a wire and then extract it. Use a car battery or a high amperage, low voltage power supply and connect one pole to an alligator clip attached to the pulley. The other pole goes to a large wire (with insulation attached so it doesn't short out on the sides of the access hole) that is poked down the hole. Touching the end of the wire to the broken end of the Allen wrench should fuse it to the wire. Be sure to remove the alligator clip quickly so you don't melt the wire. The broken part should then be attached to the end of the wire and will be extracted when the wire is removed. The first try may not be successful so try again! This is the most effective way I've ever used to remove broken items from such an inaccessible location! Regards, Art Richardson Clinton, MS ------- Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2003 19:52:59 -0800 From: "Carol & Jerry Jankura" Subject: RE: (no subject) Hi, Bill: Funny you should ask today. I had to "fix" the same problem with the capscrew that holds the CNC motor coupler to the leadscrew. I used a small tweezers as a pick to move it about. Once I did that, It simply dropped out of the cap screw. When you tightened the screw, the ball end forced itself into the hex sides of the "allen" socket. You've got to break that force fit; then it'll drop out Jerry ------- Subject: Re: Massive old bandsaws oldtools digest From: hb Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2003 13:09:29 -0800 (PST) Paul Lalonde wrote: > Through serendipity, I may be able to acquire, for the cost of moving > it, an ancient 36" bandsaw. The table is darned near a meter square, > the wheels run true and easy, the table tilt handscrew is smooth, and > all the parts are there. The leather drive belt is even in good shape. I would take it if possible. You will need to change your floor around though. Rent a concrete saw and cut out the area of the existing floor that the beast will occupy. Once you've removed the 4 inch concrete, you'll need to set some steel rebar in the space and frame out the area in preparation of pouring an 8 inch slab. You should place a flexible gasket type material (about 1/2 to 1 inch thick) around the perimeter of the hole cut in the old floor to isolate it from any vibrations that might be generated by the new machine. If you want to be a galoot about using the new machine, you could set up a drive chain using an old ten speed bicycle to drive a suitably massive flywheel. You could get the mass of the flywheel spinning by working your way through the gears on the bicycle's transmission and once it was spinning, you could use a clutch mechanism to bleed the power from the flywheel and send it through the saw drive mechanism. Or you could just put a smaller motor on it that could be used with the power source that you have available. Nice find. ------- Subject: Re: Massive old bandsaws From: Ken Pendergrass Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2003 21:13:38 -0500 Paul, I use one of these monsters at work so here is 2.5 cents worth. On ours I doubt if any thought was given to the slab it sits on but it is in a commercial building. Ours we can kind of slide around a few inches one way or the other so it's not all that heavy. If it is not too tall and will fit into your room go for it. The price is right. On the other hand the usefulness of this saw depends on your expectations. If you want to just simply use a good saw to do work like resawing veneer with no fuss no muss and are spoiled by the modern standard of machines this may not satisfy. Our 36" saw has a table which is bent and can't quite be made square to the blade. When some idiot sneaks in after I leave and breaks the blade the blade gets wound around the wheels and jammed in throat. Last time it took me 3 hours to set it right. I had a small antique band saw equivalent to a modern 12" machine and I sold it ( at a profit) when I realized that I wanted to woodwork not restore old saws. I could see that I would never get to work as good as a modern saw without investing the equivalent $ to the modern saw on which I now resaw 2.5 mm veneer with impunity. As you know anything driven by a leather belt is legal and interesting to the list so long as we assume that one intends to power it by steam or water. I would not go less than a 5 hp steam engine of course a 10 hp would be better but the 5 will no doubt cut any piece of wood you can lift onto the table. It will just cut somewhat slower. For my purposes I would rather replace the monster as pretty as it is or at least get a modern Rigid 14" for the work I actually do. Today I found myself using the 36" to cut a piece of ebony about 1.25 x .5" even with the fine toothed 19' 1" long blade this is less than ideal. Plus it takes about 30 seconds with the 5 hp steam engine and the 6" leather belt to get up to speed. There are pros and cons to these monsters. Ken ------- Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2004 03:43:31 -0000 From: "vks_generic" Subject: grinder wheel truing This time I have a fairly simple question, I think. I have a cheap grinder with a cheap gray wheel, and it works... except over time the wheel starts looking like it's been gnawed by mice. I know that's where wheel truing and dressing comes in, right? That's where my knowledge ends. I've been correcting the shape of my wheels with a shank of a broken carbide toolbit - surprisingly, it works! It's hard enough, and doesn't overheat or contaminate the wheel too bad. I really want my wheels to have more or less of a right angle on the edges again. That'll require removing quite a bit material. Do you need to use some sort of diamond-tip tool for truing? Or is that what dressing stick can be used for? What should I get (I checked MSC, and just found a variety of dressing sticks - from $5 to $60 or so, but I have no clue what they are and what the difference is). Any hints or pointers on the 'proper' truing procedure? (For now I've been simply moving a carbide shank from side to side, changing pressure on the wheel to remove more material from where there was too much, and finishing with a few passes of uniform pressure, but I am really new to grinding). Thanks! ------- Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2004 01:02:52 -0500 From: Stan Stocker Subject: Re: grinder wheel truing A diamond point is very good for truing a wheel, provided you make a fixture to guide the diamond point, with the axis of the diamond pointed around 15 degrees below the center of the wheel. Some drill grinders and tool and cutter grinders have built in dressing attachments, Black Diamond drill grinders have a swing arm built in that presents the diamond point straight on to the surface. Thought this was a bit odd, but that's how mine was made. As I plan to convert this to the grinding head for a T&C grinder, it's been left in place. If you use a diamond point, don't dawdle. Move the diamond across the face of the wheel within 1 to 3 seconds. You normally dress around half a thou per pass, maybe a thou tops. Here's a handy link for info on diamond points and their use: http://www.georgiagrindingwheel.com/Catalog/Norton/T146-T157%20-%20Di amond%20Tools.pdf Georgia Grinding has a lot of useful data, the catalog links by product page is: http://www.georgiagrindingwheel.com/catalogpages.htm The diamond holders for dressing surface grinders usually have the diamond tilted about 15 degrees behind the grinder spindle axis. In any event, you don't want to present the diamond as a cutting tool in the same fashion as a graver, you'll just shatter the diamond. An easier approach is to use a star dresser to open up the face of the wheel and knock off the high points, then use a dressing stick (Norbide is one brand name) to flatten the surface. To use a star dresser, you pull the tool rest back enough to allow the tabs on the dresser head to catch behind the rest, then rock the handle up to dress the wheel. A LOT of stuff will be flying when you do this, have good eye protection at a minimum, preferably a full face shield. Even with the guards in place, stuff just spews out when doing heavy dressing. Not one of my favorite tasks. Button your shirt up all the way as well, nothing like hot grit going in the neck and falling down across the belly :-( You may want to look into some better wheels also, the white or red brand name wheels in a 46 and 60grit, H or K bond tend to cut cooler and better than the gray ones most grinders come equipped with. Cheers, Stan ------- Date: Fri, 10 Dec 2004 10:12:24 EST From: rssll41x~xxaol.com Subject: flat belt direction [Metal_Shapers group] From what I remember from old farm machinery, with horizontal shafts, the drive pully pulls the belt over the top of the driven pully. Russ H ------- Date: Fri, 10 Dec 2004 13:49:09 -0500 (EST) From: x xx Subject: Re: flat belt direction That's right. The principle is that the tensioned side is always uppermost so that the slack side, the "return" side, is alway pulled away from the taut side by gravity and never unto it as would be the case if you "pulled on the bottom". Sam ------- Date: Fri, 10 Dec 2004 18:18:01 -0600 From: "Sonny Laufmann" Subject: RE: flat belt direction Within the last 15 years we were still shelling corn with a Minneapolis Moline UB tractor running a Minneapolis Moline corn sheller with a ~50' long by about 8" wide flat endless belt - this transmitted enough power to kill the 50 HP tractor engine if you "slugged" the sheller. The thing is, you had to have about 25 feet to work with to get the tractor correctly aligned with the sheller and tension the belt and you had to position the sheller back in behind cribs, and so the dust did not blow on the tractor, etc. This meant that we powered the sheller from either side - it had to turn the right direction, so when the tractor was on one side we put a twist in the belt, on the other side it was looped over both pulleys without a twist. When it was twisted- the belt rubbed together in the middle between the tractor and the sheller - this never created any problems and the sheller pulled just as well with the tractor on either side, but it is obvious that on one side the top of the driven pulley turned away from the power source and on the other side it turned towards the power source (tractor). Bottom line is that I don't think the direction the belt runs in relation to the pulleys makes any difference if the belt is aligned properly and tensioned correctly (the direction the belt itself ran DID matter - the correct direction was indicated by an arrow) - sometimes the belts would get really "slick" and we had tubes of a sticky substance about the size of a grease tube that you just held against the belt while running (the friction kinda "melted" it into the belt surface) to keep the belt surface friction capability up there - don't remember what the ingredients were, but I believe it is still available, Sonny Arnold E (Sonny) Laufmann Jr Minnehaha County SD si vis pacem para bellum ------- Date: Fri, 10 Dec 2004 16:26:52 -0800 From: "Carl Carlsen" Subject: RE: flat belt direction I agree Sonny. I was a 'farm kid' and helped blow a lot of silage through the corn blower and into the silo. Depending on how the blower was situated, the tractor might wind up on either side of it and we too twisted the belt when necessary. Worked for us! Carl ------- From: Tod Engine [mailto:todenginex~xxzoominternet.net] Sent: Thursday, January 27, 2005 10:31 PM To: LittleEnginesx~xxyahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [LittleEngines] Tod engine The rolling mill that this particular Tod Engine drove was a six stand 24" merchant mill. There were six "stands" which were basically two 24" diameter steel cylinders in a houseing, one atop the other. A steel billet about 4 or 6 inch square and about 1200 degrees would go through all six stands, and be formed into a shape that is desired. In this case the merchant mill made tube rounds, so the square billet would be squeezed into a long cylinder about 4 or 6 inches in diameter. This round would then be shipped to another facility where it was pierced lengthways with a bullet shaped device to make seamless pipe. Regular pipe is made by taking a flat piece of steel and forming it and welding the ends. Seamless pipe is pierced, and is much stronger. Maybe as an adjunct to the model engine we could also make rolling mill stands to give the model Tod something to do. Perhaps it could roll little lead billets or such. Merchant mills are small rolling mills which would make smaller types of rolled products that were then sold to "merchants". It's an old term that has since evolved into meaning any type of small rolling mill that isn't otherwise classified. There are many types of rolling mills. Blooming mills roll ingots into blooms or slabs, hot strip mills roll slabs into thin steel sheets, cold strip mills finish the hot rolled strip into a sheet with a better surface finish and better thickness control. Round mills make rounds for seamless pipe, bar mills roll small sections such as 1" angle iron, rebar, square and flat bars, and wire mills roll wire. When the Tod engine was built the merchant mill it drove made sheet bar, approx. 1/2" thick x 4 to 5" wide which were then rerolled in a hand sheet mill into steel sheets. It was a very antiquated and labor intensive way to make steel sheet. When a hot strip mill was installed in the 30s, the merchant mill became a round mill and made just tube rounds. Rick ------- Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2006 23:43:08 +0000 From: Clive Foster Subject: Gib Feel & Shop Size (long) [taigtools] Folks: In my experience the only effective way to develop the feel needed to adjust gibs "just-so" is to strip things out so that you can push it back and forth by hand whilst playing with the adjusters. Depending on machine design this may mean removing the feed screw and fittings entirely or just the end bracket assemblies. (If its a ball screw feed machine you'd better know exactly what you are doing or verily there will be balls everywhere with great wailing and lamentation. Best to start on something more basic.) Once you have picked up the feel it usually translates OK onto different machines. (I habitually do the hand movement check on getting another machine as it helps assess condition.) With conventional push screw gibs you will discover that, when close to correct adjustment, very slight excess pressure on one screw will make a huge difference to stiffness. Indeed, with a long table, its quite easy for such errors to produce a situation where the table is clearly too tight yet still has side to side rock when grasped by the ends and twisted across the shears on which the gib runs. It can be surprising just how tight the adjuster screws can be whilst still permitting smooth movement when all are set equally and just-so. Indeed its often possible to end up with all the screws set tighter than the single over-tight screw needs to be to jam things up nearly solid. Frustratingly you will find that its essentially impossible to recover from the one over tight screw situation by adjusting the others. Hafta back off and start over. Until you get the feel it can be like tap dancing on a tight-rope. Once you've got the feel it's almost impossible to recall what the problem was. You will swear blind that you are doing exactly the same as you did when things all went wrong. With taper gibs you will discover that the adjusting screw/gib movement slot fit is vitally important in getting smooth movement with minimal play in both directions. On Far Eastern import machines its frequently essential to modify both slot and adjuster to make things work right. I know the theoretical advantages but I don't in practice like taper gibs, especially not on machines of the type we can usually afford. Playing with different sorts of lubrication when doing the hand push thing can also be instructive. For those without a mechanical / machinist background "wasting" half a day playing can prove a good investment in getting a good grounding in WTHIGO. It was mentioned that Taig use anodised ways. I hope that it's proper hard anodising as ordinary anodising is not generally reckoned suitable for slides even though it's a considerably harder surface than the native material. Hard anodising can be very hard indeed giving similar levels of wear resistance to chill cast iron and quite capable of taking the edge off a cheap import drill. Attempting to lap either sort can be asking for trouble if common materials are used. Up to heavy polishing is prolly OK. If you have to quite a lot of machinery can be packed into and used in a small space. My old shop was 8 by 12 ft nominal outside with the machine bit about 8 by 6. Contents were Southbend Heavy 10 lathe, Chinee square column bench mill with 28" by 8" table, Pollard Corona floor standing pillar drill, Copco 16 cu ft/min V twin compressor, 120 mm (nominal) horizontal & vertical band saw, waste bin and hand truck with cuttings bag attachment. OK I had to put the saw on a decent wheeled cabinet so I could pull it out to use it with long stock sticking out the door and cheated by putting the bench mount grinder / wire brush up the other end but I could have got it in the machinery bit if I had to. Sufficient shelving and cupboard space for all tooling, accessories e.g. 8" rotary table and an adequate materials stock too. Being only 30" waist helps, lots! Other half was store shelves, hand work bench (3 x 6) and so on, not forgetting a door in the middle of one long side. If basing a small shop round a Taig lathe I'd arrange things with the lathe on a lift out drawer, swing up shelf or whatever you can think of so that it doesn't permanently take up bench space. HTH. Clive ------- NOTE TO FILE: The following is practical advice for anyone needing a strong motor mount, for a shaper or whatever. There is usually no need to exactly duplicate an original mount, and lots of innovative folks have come up with their own versions. ------- Re: Looking for pictures, ShapeRite Model B [Metal_Shapers] Posted by: "Alan R. Lapp" alanlappx~xxlevelfive.com Date: Mon May 28, 2007 10:45 am ((PDT)) On May 27, 2007, Jon Brooks wrote: > I'd like to see a picture of the motor mount that came with the > machine originally, maybe I can make something up to hold the motor > more rigidly. Hello, new to the list, my first post. I have had good success with this type of arrangement on other power tools by fabricating what amounts to a stout, shop-made residential door hinge. The following can be accomplished with ordinary hand tools -- a saw and a drill. It does require a small amount of welding, which a welding shop should do for $5 or $10. I suppose that if you have enough heat, you could braze it together as well. Make a motor-mount-plate from 1/4" plate steel. Make a base-mount plate from the 1/4" plate to attach to the tool. Acquire 5/8" tube with 1/16" wall (or 3/4" tube with 1/8" wall for easier welding) for the hinge tubes, and 1/2" rod for the hinge pin. There's no point in making fussy little fingers for the hinge -- those are only there to make a large surface area bearing for a vertical door, so it's easier to swing. Cut the hinge tube into three sections -- roughly 3/16 of the full width of the hinge on each out-board end, and 10/16 in the middle -- the exact proportions aren't important, but I like to be a little generous with the middle tube so it resists twisting better. Because it's a motor mount, the hinge shouldn't see any side-loading, so the finish on the ends of the hinge tube isn't critical. Clamp it all together with the hinge pin in place and weld it up. Go *very* slow on the welding, tack it first, and in several spots. Just blazing away will distort things enough that the hinge won't move smoothly. If you're of a mind to, the pin can be removable, which allows easy disassembly of the motor, or it can be welded in place. If you wanted to make a super-duper hinge, you could install grease nipples, and perhaps teflon washers between the hinge tubes. :) If the welding distorts the hinge tubes too much, run a 1/2" drill through -- low RPM and feed very slowly as it will want to grab. a ------- Re: removing studs [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: "Michael Fagan" woodworker88x~xxgmail.com Date: Mon Sep 24, 2007 8:25 pm ((PDT)) On 9/24/07, missingbuttons wrote: > I need to get some broken steel studs out of an aluminum cylinder > head. Any suggestions? The best method is to plug weld a nut onto the stud, then back it out with a wrench. You can also try heat, cobalt drills (left handed helix is best, so it'll tend to back out the stud), sold carbide drills, various screw extractors (I don't know anybody whose had good success with those) or any of a couple of other methods. Where is the stud broken off? Above the surface lends itself well to welding, at the surface is hardest; if it has broken off in the hole and there are threads visible at the top, make a threaded guide bushing out of a bolt. Take a bolt, drill it through with the size drill you will use in the stud, then screw it into the hole. The guide will keep the drill from wandering. Start small, I once ended up making an entire set of these for a 1/2"-20 stud that was broken off about 1/4" into the hole, with another 3/4" or so of stud left inside. I bought a bunch of 1/2"-20 grade 5 bolts, then drilled them for a 3/8" solid carbide spot drill, then a 1/4" cobalt drill, then 3/8" drill, then a 7/16" drill. I finished with one that was just under the pitch diameter (don't remember the size right off hand). Making the bushings took an hour or so, drilling another hour or more. But it was worth it on a nearly irreplaceable part (museum restoration project of an engine from a 1930's Spanish fighter plane). I have found that often the rough surface of the broken face will cause the drill to lead off, so I often use a small grinding stone in a die grinder to help smooth out the broken surface prior to attempting to drill out the stud. Hope this helps at least a bit. Michael ------- Re: removing studs Posted by: "s_yancey" stephenyanceyx~xxtempleinland.com Date: Tue Sep 25, 2007 7:51 am ((PDT)) I have had good luck in the past with a modified nut plug weld method -- if you have any of the stud sticking out of the block or if it is at least flush. The way I do it is to first TIG plug weld a washer to the stud. TIG welding allows a lot more manipulation of the welding heat and filler metal so that a good solid weld can be performed. I make a mild steel washer that has a hole a little bit smaller than the stud and is a least .125 thick. The od of the washer should be about .250 inch larger than the nut you choose. (I usually go with at least the next size larger nut than the stud size.) By using a .125 thick washer the welder can start the arc on the washer and then move over to the stud so he gets a better weld without burning up the surrounding area. After welding the washer to the stud, I then fillet weld the nut to the washer. Be sure to let everything cool down because applying heat to the stud will cause it to expand and possibly gall the aluminum threads. Thanks, Steve ------- Re: removing studs Posted by: "jmartin957x~xxaol.com" Date: Tue Sep 25, 2007 9:14 am ((PDT)) You've had a lot of good suggestions already, but there are a couple of others. A hot saturated solution of alum in water will attack the steel but not the aluminum. So will nitric acid. Both of these are better on taps than on broken fasteners, as the flutes allow the liquids to attack the threads rather than eating down all the way through the fastener. Drilling the fastener to leave a thin shell will speed it up. Easy outs can work if used correctly, but it depends also on why the fastener broke. If it broke due to too much torque or tension on inserting they may work, as the threads are likely to not be frozen. If it broke while trying to remove it, the threads are more likely to be frozen or corroded in place, and removal will be more difficult. Correct use of the easy out means using the correct size and drilling the correct size hole. Many people incorrectly use the largest size possible, which means leaving thin walls which are expanded by the easy out, locking the fastener even tighter. Finding a shop with an EDM machine is a non-DIY method. John Martin ------- dfm/prick-punch/o70925date/time13:13 [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: "DennisF MacIntyre" a1g2r3ix~xxyahoo.ca a1g2r3i Date: Tue Sep 25, 2007 10:32 am ((PDT)) Dear missingbuttons: If you cannot turn a R.H. threaded broken tap, broken bolt, or what-ever, counter-clockwise with a chisel or a prick punch to remove, try centre dabbing and then sharpen a drill or a cement nail backwards so that it cuts when it turns counter-clock-wise. With luck it will bite while your hand drill is on reversed and un-screw out of the hole. If you should be so unfortunate that it does not, but, that it instead drills a hole, then use an easy-out. I have seen the first method used but only read about the second method mentioned. Let us know how you make out. It is assumed eye protection and other safety procedures will be observed. Dennis Mac ------- Re: dfm/prick-punch/o70925date/time13:13 Posted by: "James Sterner" jimmy163333x~xxyahoo.com Date: Tue Sep 25, 2007 4:01 pm ((PDT)) I've used a tap extractor once and it worked good. I think you can get them in 3 and 4 flute versions to match your broken tap. They have legs that go in the open flutes. Jim ------- Re: dfm/prick-punch/o70925date/time13:13 Posted by: "LouD31M066x~xxaol.com" LouD31M066x~xxaol.com Date: Tue Sep 25, 2007 7:18 pm ((PDT)) Steel fastener in aluminum very often leads to difficult removal problems. Antique outboard motors usually have to be taken apart to repair or salvage parts. I suspect the folks at aomci.org have more experience in removing these than anyone else around. They are also the folks with experience in unsticking stuck pistons too. Their discussion group is active and willing to share knowledge and tips. Louis ------- removing broken studs Posted by: "missingbuttons" missingbuttonsx~xxnetscape.net Date: Thu Sep 27, 2007 6:43 pm ((PDT)) Thank you for all the ideas. The stud is an exhaust manifold stud in the head for 1981 Porsche 911. I will try a variety of these. I have six studs to remove so far. It must the heat that caused the problem because the intake side came right out. Thanks I will keep you updated on progress and best results in this application. ------- Re: removing broken studs Posted by: "LouD31M066x~xxaol.com" Date: Thu Sep 27, 2007 6:53 pm ((PDT)) Engineers design, mechanics maintain and never the twain shall meet. If they did things would work better, last longer and be easier to maintain. Louis ------- Handwheel modification/improvement [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: "audi200qpilot" las1940x~xxcomcast.net Date: Wed Feb 6, 2008 3:10 pm ((PST)) After operating some other (more costly) lathes, I began to notice a shortcoming of my 12" Craftsman lathe that I thought could be remedied pretty easily. The handles of the carriage and tailstock handwheels are fixed, whereas some other machines are equipped with rotating handles. The rotating handles are a lot nicer to operate, in my opinion, especially when repositioning the carriage for some distance. Same thing with the tailstock, for large movements of its shaft. So, I bought a spare handwheel on eBay to experiment with, turned a custom handle from black Delrin, and a spindle from 4140 steel rod. The fixed handle pulls out of the wheel with no difficulty, the hole is bored to the next size up which still leaves plenty of beef around the hole boss, and the new spindle is pressed in. Works lovely, so I changed both the handwheels accordingly.... ------- NOTE TO FILE: NOISE ISOLATION. The following tip was directed towards metal shapers but could help with other machines and/or jigs. ------- Noise isolation on the extreme cheap [Metal_Shapers] Posted by: "Bob Colquitt" wahsatchx~xxcopper.net Date: Fri Mar 21, 2008 8:42 am ((PDT)) Hi, Go to your local truck tire outfit & get a couple of truck tire tubes & also the inserts for the split wheel - covers the crack between the 2 halves [about 1/2" thick in the middle] - usually free for the asking. Cut to length & thickness & put between the shaper & stand. The real trick is your mounting bolts - you need to isolate them. Cut a small piece to go around the bolt in your mount eyes & another flat piece between the bolt head/washer and the shaper. This is how my neighbors don't know what I'm up to other than when actually sizzlin' when cuttin' metal.... Bob ------- Re: ML7:new spindle and bearing..? [MyMyford] [perhaps other machines] Posted by: "alan4227" a.j.moorex~xxbtinternet.com Date: Wed Feb 11, 2009 6:35 am ((PST)) "waalsand" wrote: > Hi...I have a ML7 from -52 in a general good condition. It has never > seen heavy use, and seams to be well cared for over the years. > But, the white metal bearings does not look to good. It seams that > some foreign matter has found its way into the bearing and there are > some nasty marks on both bearing and spindel. The runout is still very > good, but I`m conserned that the marks on the bearing and spindle will > lead to premature failure of the bearings.. > Best regards from Norway.. Neros Hi Neros, I'm certainly not an expert on lathe bearings, but if the runout is not a problem now I'd be inclined to stick with the bearings you've got until they get so worn that runout becomes a problem. Plain bearings can have deep scratches in them which look pretty terrible, but the only effect really is that you have lost about 0.1% of the bearing surface area. In fact the scratches might even act like oil grooves and hold the lubricant in the bearing better. I would clean out the oilers and oil passages to make sure there is no foreign matter left, refill with clean oil of a suitable grade and get turning! Regards, Alan ------- Re: ML7:new spindle and bearing..? Posted by: "tomservo_9504" tomservo_9504x~xxyahoo.com Date: Wed Feb 11, 2009 9:26 am ((PST)) Rule of thumb with shell bearings (white metal plated on little replaceable shells for engine bearings) is that if the scratches are concentric, then it's fine as long as they're not more than 25% of the surface. If there's a scratch across the bearing, that's rather bad as it can collect crap and abrade the spindle. It would probably still give years of service as a hobby lathe... If not decades. ------- Re: ML7:new spindle and bearing..? Posted by: "f2cf1g" roy.vaughnx~xxbtinternet.com Date: Wed Feb 11, 2009 10:03 am ((PST)) Hi Neros: I had an ML7 with bearings in a similar state and considered the Myford replacement kit which includes a hardened mandrel and phosphor bronze bearings. It's a direct replacement and doesn't require modification to the lathe. However, it does involve scraping the bearing shells in and I didn't have the confidence to do that with no experience. Myford offered to do it for a £100 or so six or seven years ago, but that's not so practical from Norway. I too am surprised that no-one offers white metal replacements given that the Myford kit costs several hundred pounds. If the bearings run OK in yours I suggest you stick with them as others have suggested. Regards Roy ------- Re: Centering the mill spindle [sherline] Posted by: "a3sigma" dcclark111x~xxcomcast.net Date: Sun Feb 15, 2009 5:01 pm ((PST)) "DW Holtman" wrote: > Hamilton, > Thank you for taking the time to respond. I already read that. All it says is, "is by indicating the hole in the rotary table". I'm kind of new and I think it means using a DTI? I have a Starrett Last Word indicator I picked up on Ebay. The way I have been mounting it in the spindle for aligning the milling vise etc it is not centered in line with the spindle. Doesn't it need to be in line with the spindle? < DW, Watch this video beginning at the 43 minute mark to see how it's done. http://techtv.mit.edu/videos/84-machine-shop-5 Then start at the beginning of the series: http://techtv.mit.edu/videos/142-machine-shop-1 and watch all 10 of them all the way through. You will get a very good, comprehensive, 8 hour machining course. DC David Clark in Southern Maryland, USA ------- NOTE TO FILE: The above address at M.I.T. does indeed provide a very good introduction to using the common machines and accessories found in a metalworking machine shop. Some information is basic but there are other machining tips and safety procedures that I have never seen in the many books I have. And watching a procedure versus reading about it is always instructive. Free and worth watching. ------- Super-cheap homemade precision level [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: "Bruce Freeman" freemab222x~xxgmail.com Date: Fri Feb 20, 2009 8:20 am ((PST)) Pricing out levels, the best I found for a spec of 0.003" to 0.005" per foot sensitivity (~1/8" displacement of bubble) was about $70. So unless I luck out, I would have to spend significant bucks for such a tool. But thinking about it I started wondering why. A level is a piece of glass tubing with a fluid inside and an air bubble. The tubing is curved along a circular arc. This is not rocket science. I'm thinking I could take a clear, "rigid" plastic tube, like polystyrene, and bend it ever so slightly to produce the needed arc. The bend could be stress-induced (raise middle while holding down ends) rather than a permanent "set" to the plastic. Mount this on a smooth base with some shimming provided for, and with a little finagling to find "true" horizontal, I'd have a precision level. The key to sensitivity is the arc. I figure the plastic tubing must be an arc from a circle 300" to 500" in diameter. That means a 4" tube would have to be roughly 0.004" higher in the center than on the ends. Nothing magic in this number. The greater this center shim, the less the precision. Of curiosity, I took a plastic straw (not clear, unfortunately) and easily flexed it ~1/4" in the center of a 6" section. Stiffer tubing would flex less, which is better in this case. Bruce NJ ------- Re: Super-cheap homemade precision level Posted by: "Brett Jones" brettx~xx5foot2.com Date: Fri Feb 20, 2009 8:30 am ((PST)) With something a pliable as plastic tubing, good luck finding anything that is truly round inside (I think the vials on a precision level are ground). Every time the temperature changes above or below whatever the temperature was when you set the bubble, your readings are going to be way off. In all likelihood they'll be permanently off after the first temperature change. ------- Re: Super-cheap homemade precision level Posted by: "Robert Silas" robert.silasx~xxvideotron.ca Date: Fri Feb 20, 2009 10:38 am ((PST)) If you would take a regular high end level and you would do some trial by placing it on a surface and mark the positio of one end of the bubble. Then, put a shim of known thickness under one end and see how much the bubble moved. By knowing the length of the level and the thickness of the shim under one end, and the displacement of the bubble, you can estimate, calibrate that level. Robert ------- Re: Super-cheap homemade precision level Posted by: "Rexarino" rexarinox~xxgmail.com Date: Fri Feb 20, 2009 3:18 pm ((PST)) Use glass laboratory tube, and support the middle of the tube with a piece of shim stock or coke can. Glass is flexible for small bends. Seal one end in an alcohol lamp with a blowpipe, or a bunsen burner, or a propane torch. Cool, fill with colored water, and plug the other end with caulk. Use soft face clamps on the ends, and tighten them down slowly onto a solid bar of flat stock. Tap screw holes near one or both ends for adjusting feet, if needed. An enhanced version of this was featured a while back in one of the Village Press mags. Rex ------- Re: Super-cheap homemade precision level Posted by: "lunbom" lunbomx~xxhotmail.com Date: Fri Feb 20, 2009 5:26 pm ((PST)) Rex, this is a tool I would like to have. I am having trouble under= standing your description of the building procedure. Could you rephrase your text? Or maybe come up with info on where to look for that article you mention. Bill ------- Re: Super-cheap homemade precision level Posted by: "Bruce Freeman" freemab222x~xxgmail.com Date: Fri Feb 20, 2009 6:10 pm ((PST)) Let me chime in, because this is about what I had in mind. Rex suggests using glass. Good idea, mainly because the bubble might have a better shape (or not). The tube itself is a glass or plastic tube with (colored) liquid (I prefer alcohol to water) inside, and a small air bubble. If you lay this on a truly flat surface, place a shim of ~0.004" beneath the center, and press down on both ends, you'll flex the tube about as much as needed. So now you just need to come up with a mounting device (body of level) that will accomplish this. However, you still may need some adjustability, as you won't necessarily get the level "level" on the first go. The easiest way to do this is to somehow be able to shim one end of the level between the base and the tube, (without flexing the base into a curve). The simplest approach seems to me to go out and buy a cheap magnetic level ($7 or so), then mount the extra glass tube on top, strapping or clamping down the two ends after inserting shim or shims in the center and at one end. ------- Re: Super-cheap homemade precision level Posted by: "Rexarino" rexarinox~xxgmail.com Date: Fri Feb 20, 2009 6:23 pm ((PST)) Bruce describes what I was suggesting. I went looking for metalworking.com and Village press indices, and found these. A Sensitive Level HSM'84:N/D16 A Cut-rate Machinist's Level Thompson, Jack R Proj. In Metal Dec 1998 p33 Engineers Level HALL Model Eng. Workshop # 10 1938 also # 36 1934 And this picture http://www.metalworking.com/dropbox/_2001_retired_files/LEVELA.JPG A Sensitive Level KELLY, HOWARD HSM'88:J/F20 Rex ------- Re: Super-cheap homemade precision level Posted by: "catboat15x~xxaol.com" Date: Fri Feb 20, 2009 7:46 pm ((PST)) As I remember from the article in one of the magazines the glass tube was selected or ground to a precise cylinder. But there is Rollie's Dad's method in the files which doesn't level, but does assure the tail stock and head stock are on the same plane. I tried the laser level trick too, but at 20 (well that is the length of the shop, measurement more like 16 or 17 feet.) the dot was so smeared (HF cheap pointer) I could not tell much. There was a pendulum system also posted some time ago. Essentially a vertical rod secured to the carriage and a weight suspended from the rod and the weight should indicate the same spot on the carriage as it is run from end to end of the lathe. As was pointed out on this group some time ago, lathes are used on ships and the lathe is anything but level as the shop pitches and rolls, but the lathe is secured so that the head stock and tail stock remain in alignment no matter what position the ship happens to be in. I have seen lathes mounted in maintenance trucks and they work just fine no matter how the truck is parked at any particular site. Granted, a good level is a quick and easy way to determine if the head and tail of the bed is in the same plane. On a lathe like our Atlas machines with the tailstock made to displace sideways to turn tapers, chances are many of our lathes are out of alignment when turning a long shaft of some kind. There we need a test bar to put between centers and make sure the tool or your indicator shows the same at both ends of the test bar. That is a common practice in some shops and a test bar (a bar with raised rings near each end and carefully miked to the same diameter) is put between centers periodically to check alignment of the bed. As the old saying goes, there are several ways to remove the fur from a feline. ------- Re: Super-cheap homemade precision level Posted by: "Rexarino" rexarinox~xxgmail.com Date: Sat Feb 21, 2009 4:39 pm ((PST)) On Feb 21, 2009, Wayne wrote: > Folly? I hardly think so. It's relatively easy to get a small > surface like that flat. a sheet of fine emery cloth on a flat > surface and some hand lapping will do it. Adjusting would be done > using the swap 180 deg method, just as you do for checking any > spirit level. Sure it's a little work, but you are starting with > something close to what was intended. > > Something I think some have missed in this discussion, is that the > reference to being level is not the critical part, the reference > from one end to the other, and points in between, need to be "level > to each other". Level to the ground is a moot point, and not the > critical one. getting the ways straight is what matters. The bed > could be set up vertically, or at 45 degrees, and as long as it is > straight, it will machine as straight as the rest of the tolerances > allow. -Outlaw I agree, but I will propose a heretics solution, because the intent is not necessarily to make a $100 Starrett level - the intent is to make a device that can detect a CHANGE in slope for a near level surface. With the ends of a very slightly bowed tube attached to the top of a flat bar, and assuming the bubble is near the shim that denotes the 'center', all that is needed is to make the lathe bed the same at several places along the ways. Set the device across the ways near the headstock and mark the ends of the bubble with a magic marker. Move the level parallel to itself further away from the headstock and shim the mounts at the far end so the device reads the same over the length of the bed. Done! Throw away the glass-tube -on-a-bar, use the bar stock, and build another when you move the lathe. If you want to verify the accuracy of the level, put a .001 shim under one end and note the movement of the bubble. If the lathe ways, headstock to tailstock, have less variation than the .001" shim, the level of the lathe is better than any effort you can expend to "improve" it. If you feel it is necessary, use Rollie's Dad's method to complete your exercise, then learn to get the accuracy you need by knowing the lathe, not defining the parameters. I leveled my lathe with a carpenters level, because I could easily discern the difference a .001" shim caused in the bubble. It has worked well for years, and I am becoming a good enough machinist to turn to high tolerance. The lathe was always able to do good work, but I had to learn to be accurate. Too many beginners on any machine get hung up on making the tool the perfect color, rust free, bedded in concrete, perfectly flat, lubed with the perfect oil, with the latest tooling and factory perfect yada yada. The accuracy and possible work comes from the machinist, not the tool. Get your fingers greasy, cover your shirt with a streak of cutting oil, skin your fingers on the swarf, but practice machining!! You can't learn this by painting the lathe! Rant off, Rex ------- Re: Super-cheap homemade precision level Posted by: "mondosmetals" jwreyx~xxusa.net Date: Sat Feb 21, 2009 4:51 pm ((PST)) Anyone up for pinstriping? :) Right on, Rexarino! Interesting reading: How to buy a lathe: http://www.mermac.com/advicenew.html But if you read the page above, then you aren't finished until you read the author's follow-up: In Praise of Klunkers: http://www.mermac.com/klunker2.html Enjoy! raymond ------- Re: Super-cheap homemade precision level Posted by: "Rexarino" rexarinox~xxgmail.com Date: Sat Feb 21, 2009 5:32 pm ((PST)) ALL pinstriping must be flame orange-red for accuracy!!:-)) That may be the best information ever written about used tools! Rex ------- "Black Holes" and the Atlas lathe [atlas-craftsman] Posted by: "bobwieking" bobnancyx~xxkvalley.com Date: Mon Aug 3, 2009 8:26 am ((PDT)) I am too picky to be sure....there are times when I wish that the access to the "black hole" produced by the head and tail way-support castings were blocked off in some elegant way. Then, when I part off a nice piece it doesn't hide under the head or tailstock. It would also be nice to NOT have to clean swarf out from under the head and tail stock. Can anyone relate to this? Bob Wieking Ellensburg, WA ------- Re: "Black Holes" and the Atlas lathe Posted by: "Russ Kepler" russx~xxkepler-eng.com Date: Mon Aug 3, 2009 8:32 am ((PDT)) Several months ago I was making a fixture to hold small plumbing fittings in a lathe for machining. After some work I was parting it on the mill so the fixture could be opened and the parts inserted for holding. The blade grabbed the loose part of the fixture and tossed it into the shadows never to be found. I don't mind the occasional 2-56 screw or little nut, but when a shiny chunk of aluminum 1" x 1/2" square can be lost... well, I'm fairly sure alternate dimensions are involved. (It showed up again last night. It had landed under the mill table behind the pedestal. I'm sure I looked there before, but there it was. Now I have 2 working fixtures!) ------- Re: "Black Holes" and the Atlas lathe Posted by: "n5kzw" n5kzwx~xxarrl.net Date: Mon Aug 3, 2009 1:05 pm ((PDT)) At the headstock end, you could stick a plastic bag under the headstock and squirt a bunch of expanding foam into the bag. Fold the open end of the bag over and hold an appropriately-shaped piece of cardboard against it until the foam has hardened. Voila! You have a plug with a reasonably flat front face. Regards, Ed ------- Re: "Black Holes" and the Atlas lathe Posted by: "catboat15x~xxaol.com" Date: Mon Aug 3, 2009 3:25 pm ((PDT)) When I was making tube fittings for my 3/4 inch to the foot locomotive there were a flock ("flock" is defined as a whole lot) of 5/32 inch tube fittings. Each involved making a collar that fit the tube on the ID and the fitting on the OD. After a period of turning, cut off, extend a bit more of the hex stock then turn, part off, etc. I finally decided that the system results in about half of the finished parts being recoverable from beneath the pile of swarf while the other half stay in that unknown land of "lost parts". Somewhere in this universe is a world made up of parts lost in the swarf pile, lost socks from the clothes dryer and similar mysteries. Some claim it is in preparation for an invasion of space aliens which take the form of wire clothes hangers. I know in our house we can replace all those wire clothes hangers in our closets with purchased "good hangers" as my better half describes them, then two weeks later there is a closet with dozens of wire hangers back on the pole. So if you lose a part you have spent time and energy and it is lost in the swarf under the head stock, go look in your closet and if the part is not there you can at least take a wire coat hanger, bend it to a hook and go through the swarf piled up under the lathe. Also I learned in my youth that a wire coat hanger will serve as welding rod when working on your "hot rod". Wonder anyone of my generation ever lived long enough to reproduce after welding our front axle perches on a Model A frame to take a V-8 engine using a wire coat hanger as welding rod, then drive full throttle over the salt flats. ------- Re: "Black Holes" and the Atlas lathe Posted by: "doc" n8as1x~xxaol.com Date: Mon Aug 3, 2009 4:28 pm ((PDT)) Why stop there.? ..how abt all the brake drums cleaned by asbestos powder blown out ..all the front bearings washed in gasoline . .all the parts washed in carbon tetracycline..all the trips to town w/ pickup bed full of kin / neighbors. all the shooting /hunting w/ out eye nor ear protection . all the lead dust from indoor shooting ranges..DDT applications..all the paint made w/ white lead /linseed oil ( house painters routinely mixed their own.) " paris green " pesticide, black 40 ( nicotine sulfate ) pesticicide... Best wishes Docn8as ------- Re: "Black Holes" and the Atlas lathe Posted by: "Starlight Tool Services Ltd" starlight_toolsx~xxtelus.net Date: Mon Aug 3, 2009 8:50 pm ((PDT)) I just go to the door and look in Charlie's mouth. He is a long haired Dachshund cross and any time I drop a nut, bolt, screw, twist tie, chunk of metal from the lathe, mill or what have you, he picks it up and guards it for me until I need it. Slightly sloppery but safe and sound, LOL Walter ------- Re: "Black Holes" and the Atlas lathe Posted by: "Bruce Freeman" freemab222x~xxgmail.com Date: Mon Aug 3, 2009 2:53 pm ((PDT)) Aluminum sheet from an empty beer can makes a pretty good deflector for swarf at the headstock end. I haven't had a problem at the tailstock end. Best part is emptying the beer can! Bruce NJ ------- Re: "Black Holes" and the Atlas lathe Posted by: "Don Young" donandjunex~xxatt.net Date: Thu Aug 6, 2009 7:33 pm ((PDT)) I have found that foam rubber or plastic makes cheap and easy plugs to block off such places. The hard packing foam is easy to cut to approximate shape then force into the opening. Don Young ------- NOT TO FILE: The following message came in the middle of a conversation on repair procedures for a worn lathe bed. The discussion repeated many of the methods already frequently discussed such as bed grinding, spraying with steel and scraping, use of metal-filled epoxies like Moglice, etc. You can find similar discussions here in the "Atlas Repair or Fitting" text file. I included this message because it mentions Marine-Tex, a product I was unaware of. Certainly metal-filled or similar high quality epoxies have a useful place in some machine repair situations. ------- [atlas_craftsman] Re: Struggling with Decision= Need Thinking Help-now bed repair Posted by: "toolmaker48" toolmaker48x~xxyahoo.com Date: Thu Dec 24, 2009 12:52 pm ((PST)) bill phelps wrote: > > check out moglice for repairing lathe beds Jon Elson wrote: > Moglice is not really appropriate for fixing the BED, itself. It needs > to be put on thick to adhere properly. It is also pretty soft, so > would get damaged especially on a lathe bed. It is great, however, for > the underside of the lathe carriage, and I re-did my Sheldon R15-6 > (15") lathe with it. I had to fix the bed first with a grinding > technique to flatten it out. Jon I spent a good part of my career as head of the machine shop for a large commercial printer. For those not familiar with offset printing, you have 3 cylinders: the plate cylinder, the blanket cylinder and the back cylinder. The paper runs between the blanket and the back. The inked image is transferred from the plate to the blanket, to the paper. All three cylinders have to be perfectly round and parallel and to a specific diameter in order for the paper to be printed properly; dents, dings, low spots all show up like the devil. That said, stuff happens. A piece of wood from a pallet, a stray scrap of paper, someone's pliers (not mine), goes thru the press. They all put a dent in in at least one of the cylinders and you end up with part of the printed image missing where the dent is. Rather than dismantle the press to replace a cylinder, we used 2 methods to try to fill in the dent in place; brush plating and plastic steel. Brush plating works well but is time consuming. There are outside firms that do it. They show up with a power supply the size of a 2 drawer file cabinet, spend a day or two plating and then sand the patch down to the right contour. Expensive but it works. What we would try first, was using a product called "Marine-Tex". Resisted most solvents, stood up to a lot of wear, but most importantly, could be feather-edged down to nothing. Saved a lot of time and money. I'd consider using it to build up surfaces on a lathe. The worst that could happen would be if it flaked off. If you can't find marine-Tex, try Devcon products; they make a whole line of similar products: ceramic, bronze, stainless steel, etc. Worth a try. Robert ------- POM Solution [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: "VBrannick" valestreetx~xxstny.rr.com Date: Wed Jan 6, 2010 6:58 pm ((PST)) Ye Olde Atlas Craftsmen ~ and maybe not so old: Here is my tale: Having made two appeals for a solution to a problem setting up a PickOMatic gear train, and having received one response, it became evident that there isn't many of these (any?) attachments in use. Compounding the problem is the fact that one particular part in the system appears to be an aberation of sorts. It finally dawned on me that herein may lie the source of my aggravation. For the benefit of anyone who possibly may sometime in the future have a 'POM Moment" here's my experience. The 'sliding gear' feature in the system (normally) is fitted with a knob, as described in descriptive literature, and can be assembled in only one manner. The 'sliding gear' with my purchase has a quite different configuration, and can be assembled in one or another way. I ignorantly chose the other way. And therein lies the Solution to cutting some good threads with a POM ~ The moral of the story being "Be sure to keep an account of how things come apart, if you're going to put them together again." (But then, "I Knew That!") Vince B. ------- Re: POM Solution Posted by: "carvel webb" carvelwx~xxabsamail.co.za Date: Wed Jan 6, 2010 10:38 pm ((PST)) Vince, I have no "POM" experience , but have had a few similar "lessons". A digital camera helps - take pictures of the darn thing before you start and while you're busy. Something always seems to crop up to delay the project, and you are not 'really' sure how it went together (unless you've done it a dozen times), and this is where the snags start! A colleague of mine has an interesting email signature to the effect "The first law of intelligent tinkering is to keep all the parts!" Well done. Carvel ------- Re: POM Solution Posted by: "Russ Kepler" russx~xxkepler-eng.com Date: Thu Jan 7, 2010 7:41 am ((PST)) All good suggestions. One I'd add is to keep the parts from an assembly together. I use plastic bags - sandwich bags for the little guys and freezer bags for the medium assemblies. If it seems necessary I string parts together on wire to preserve placement order. Before I close the bag, it gets a shot of light oil - I tend to keep a Sure-Shot full of Starrett M1 for short term preservation so that's what most assemblies get. I don't usually end up with "spare parts" after reassembly. I do recall a story where some young apprentice got even with a crochety old machinist by slipping a nut, bolt and a couple of shims into the guy's pile-o-parts awaiting reassembly. I could see how that might work. ------- Re: Advice requested [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: "BRIAN GLACKIN" glackin.brianx~xxgmail.com Date: Thu Apr 22, 2010 5:32 am ((PDT)) http://wiki.owwm.com/ is a good resource on old Machine Restoration. It's aimed at woodworking machines, but many of the topics easily cross over. ------- dial markings [sherline] Posted by: "billyb_03" whornungx~xxoh.rr.com Date: Sat Jun 5, 2010 2:45 pm ((PDT)) I have an older sherline lathe, the dials are just plain alluminum, not red with the markings very obvious. Is there an easy method to "color" the marking to make the reading of the dial easier or plainer? Any ideas are greatly appreciated. ------- Re: dial markings Posted by: "Rich Dean" toolman8x~xxcopper.net Date: Sat Jun 5, 2010 4:29 pm ((PDT)) Billy, filling the marks with paint will do. Degrease the metal and smear on a good enamel. Wait a few minutes and wipe the excess off with a smooth tissue or plastic squeegee. Allow to dry about 20 minutes and wipe again with a tissue dampened with paint thinner (mineral spirits) to remove most of the remains. Later wipe again to get the shadow off. RichD ------- Re: dial markings Posted by: "DA Dossin" danatlx~xxyahoo.com Date: Sat Jun 5, 2010 5:49 pm ((PDT)) Ah the advantages of the DRO and those BIG numbers. DanD. ------- Re: dial markings Posted by: "Rich Dean" toolman8x~xxcopper.net Date: Sat Jun 5, 2010 7:47 pm ((PDT)) Chuck, I use Rust-0leum professionaly on engraving. Bake at 200° for better durability. RichD ------- Re: dial markings Posted by: "Ken Condal" kencondalx~xxyahoo.com Date: Sun Jun 6, 2010 7:38 am ((PDT)) Hi Rich: Can you give a few more details on the use of Rust-Oleum for engravings? How is it applied (Brush? Spray?). How do you remove the excess? How long do you bake it? Thanks, Ken ------- Re: dial markings Posted by: "DA Dossin" danatlx~xxyahoo.com Date: Sun Jun 6, 2010 8:19 am ((PDT)) First, make sure you have ALL the grease and oil out from the engraving. Baking will set the paint but dont forget to remove the plastic handles. DanD. ------- Re: dial markings Posted by: "Rich Dean" toolman8x~xxcopper.net Date: Sun Jun 6, 2010 8:20 am ((PDT)) Ken, I dab it on the area and smear it around to fill the grooves. Quickly sqeegee the excess off or with a dry smooth tissue. Just one swipe. No more. Wait about 10 min then dampen a new tissue with thinner and swipe quickly to remove the majority of the surface excess. Do not rub. Do not crumple the tissue. Apply by pinching corner with thumb & index finger and swipe with the tissue flat against the other fingers. Now there should be only a shadow. Wait about 30 min then carefully wipe again with dampened tissue. That should do it. The waiting and drying is the critical part. Wait too long and you have to scrub which fills the grooves with fuzz. Too much or too little thinner can mess it up. Experiment. Bake in oven on set on a space heater (in use in winter) until most all paint odor is gone. Don't go over 200°. Once you get the knack, it goes quickly. I do commercial panel rotary engraving. Best minimum depth is .008"-.010". Gloss paint is better than flat. RichD ------- Re: dial markings Posted by: "Ken Condal" kencondalx~xxyahoo.com Date: Sun Jun 6, 2010 6:07 pm ((PDT)) Rich: Thanks for the detailed response. I had limited success with a similar technique a while back, but my engravings were only half the depth you suggest. I'll try again with deeper engravings and all of your other suggestions. Thanks, Ken ------- Re: dial markings Posted by: "Rich Dean" toolman8x~xxcopper.net Date: Sun Jun 6, 2010 8:57 pm ((PDT)) Ken, I have one old 5000 mill with the plain dial knobs. The markings are stamped. What happens is the grooves are shallow and the metal is raised on each side. This makes it difficult to fill and clean up. First thought is to machine the dial down to smooth metal, but that would leave almost no groove depth. Oh well. RichD ------- NOTE TO FILE: The following conversation on making brass tipped set screws (that will not score a shaft when installing a pulley) resulted from a thread in the taigtools group called "TAIG LATHE HEAD STOCK BEARING PLAY" that started 04 Nov 2011 and can be read here in the file "Taig Lathe Tips". That topic had some good generic information on using set screws that will be useful in many metalworking or machine applications, no matter what brand of equipment you own. ------- Set screws... [taigtools] Posted by: "Mars Bonfire" mbonfirex~xxhotmail.com Date: Mon Nov 7, 2011 6:40 am ((PST)) Just to add a little trick on the set screws... I have at various times wanted a brass tipped set screw but not a very common item in my junk drawers. I found that the small dimple in the business end of a common steel set screw is perfect to start a drill hole. So, grab the set screw in a vise (don't mess the threads), drill a blind hole and silver solder in a small chunk of brass rod...voila, brass tipped set screw. Not for stainless steel set screws unless you have some fancy SS solder. ------- Re: Set screws... Posted by: "Pierre Coueffin" pcoueffinx~xxgmail.com Date: Mon Nov 7, 2011 3:29 pm ((PST)) I've never soldered one in. Usually I just press it with the vice. The brass will expand to a pretty tight fit. ------- Re: Set screws... Posted by: "Shawn Woolley" shawnwoolleyx~xxmac.com Date: Mon Nov 7, 2011 3:34 pm ((PST)) Same here. I make both set screws with brass insert as well as machine bolts with brass or aluminum inserts to hold stones, glass, and other found objects together in display frames as part of art pieces on a regular basis. I've never soldered one in though. Just a drop of superglue to hold them until the installation, then pressure and expansion hold them in place. -------