This is just one of some 80 files about machining and metalworking and useful workshop subjects that can be read at: http://www.janellestudio.com/metal/index.html ------------------------------------------------------------------ Here find many users' tips and information about metal shaper bits and metal shaper toolholders. Lots of ideas about making your own. The metal shaper files are sometimes the hardest to categorize of any on this site. They frequently start as one subject and wander off onto other subjects. For example, someone asks about how to fix a shaper physical problem. The message thread, which you would expect to find in the file "Metal Shaper Repair General" sometimes ends up better suited for the "Metal Shaping Tips" file if the real problem is bad technique, not a faulty metal shaper. But I cannot and will not put the thread in all files possible. The thread goes into the shaper file that is most appropriate (my choice) or causes me the least editing/typing and/or headache at the end of a long day. Just not enough room on my site for posting threads in multiple files. As mentioned on my home page, you will get the most information out of these files if you check through all of most likely ones for the problem at hand, if the file you try first does not have a full answer. It sure isn't a perfect system, but after a while you will gain the knack of scrolling/skimming files at high speed. If you have copied the files to your site, you can use your text editor or word processor to open all the shaper files at once, and do word searches across all open files at once. Yours can't do that? Get a free copy of NoteTab Light through the home page link. A very good tool. 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Hazardous tasks beyond your competence or expertise should also be contracted to professionals. Let's be really careful out there. (c) Copyright 2003 - 2016 Machining and Metalworking at Home The form of the collected work in this text file (including editing, additions, and notes) is copyrighted and this file is not to be reproduced by any means, including electronic, without written permission except for strictly personal use. ============================================================================ Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2002 02:57:53 -0000 From: "shapeaholic" Subject: Re: Doug Jones' Tutorial On Stepper Motors Jonas: Sounds to me that the holder that you have will hold 5/16" bits, which would make it a bit big for your machine. It would be more appropriate to a machine the size of my Alba 10", or maybe a 12" sheldon. Too much overhang will cause you chatter, and a poor finish ( not to mention it can hit the frame of the machine if your not carefull) You should consider making one, not that hard and can mostly be done on the shaper. Here is a link to a picture of one I made. It worked real well until I ruined trying to heat treat it. www.metalworking.com/DropBox/_2001_retired_files/shaper_toolholder.jpg Another tactic that worked for me was to make bits from 3/8 x 3/4 tool bit stock. They are a little more expensive, but make a very rigid setup. I put a picture in the Alba folder called "/metal/shaper_tool.jpg" It shows a 1/2 x 1 bit setup in my machine taking a .075" plus cut. On the Atlas I had until recently I also used 3/8" square bit in the tool post directly (with a spacer so the bolt would go tight). Another tool holder that is easier to find and works well is an armstrong for carbide bits. It holds them straight up and down ( no rake angle). I use one on my Alba sometimes and find it very handy. Cheers Pete ------- Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 04:18:04 -0000 From: "Art Volz" Subject: SB-7 Tool Post >Can anyone of you SB-7 owners provide the dimensions for a SB >toolpost and screw? Wayne--Dimensions for an Armstrong "turret" type tool holder and slotter tool holder are at "Files"--see: "Holder..."; these are of the size used with 7-inch shapers. Using these dimensions you could easily build your own. Or you could look for one of the same size such as an "Armstrong" or an "Atlas" A shaper tool holder generally holds the tool bit straight unlike lathe tool holders for HSS cutters which hold the tool at an angle. However, straight lathe tool holders are avialble for carbide tooling which work great in shapers with HSS tool bits. Even "angled" lathe tool holder can be used in a shaper, but you will have to grind your tool bits differently. Art (Houston) ------- Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 04:57:02 -0000 From: "Art Volz" Subject: Re: Logan 8" Shaper Toolpost Capacity? Pete--Armstrong was the principal out-source for shaper tool holders and were the ones generally used by shaper manufacturers who didn't use their own "branded" tool holder. The "turreted" head Armstrong 2060, as described below by Joe W., is a standard size for the smaller 7 & 8 inch shapers. My Lewis-10 also uses that size. My holder, not of Armstrong manufacture, is "branded" as an "Atlas Shaper Tool Holder" and has measurements similar to Joe's Armstrong: shank = 0.395 x 0.865 x 4.50 long; turret OD = 1.0; overall length = 5.5; tool holding capacity = 1/4-inch square. A similar sized turret-head tool holder is at "files" and listed as "holder..."; one of these could be readily made with either the dimensions shown or be modified with dimensions of your own choosing. It is designed to also hold 1/4 square tool bits. You can also use larger square tool bits directly in the lantern tool post without any other tool holder. If you use carbide tooling, however, either directly in the tool post or in a tool holder, you will need to devise a method to lift your tool out of the work on the return stroke to prevent chipping the carbide. Additionally, if you use a slotting attachment, you need to engage the "clapper hold down" at the right bottom of your "clapper box"; note that your clapper "claps" (lifts) free when the "hold down" is disengaged for normal cutting, and can move only slightly under spring pressur when the "hold down" is engaged. Art (Houston) ------- Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 19:36:36 -0000 From: "karlw144" Subject: tool bit angles I'm trying to use 3/8" square tool bits right in the tool post on my ATLAS 7B shaper (no armstrong type tool holder) and I'm evidently not sharpening the bit correctly. I'm cutting steel and it comes out too rough. Can anyone point me to a good picture with the correct angles called out? thanks, karl ------- Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 21:31:35 -0000 From: "Art Volz" Subject: Re: tool bit angles Karl--There are several sources in "Files" here that address shaper cutting tools' shapes. I suggest that, perhaps, you commit all of "Files" to a ZIP-100 disk so that these sources would be instantly available to you. Look also inside the Army shaper TM's at "Files". A straight carbide-type lathe toolholder (it holds the tool bit at an angle of incidence to the work of 90 degrees), using 1/4 HSS tool bits, may be more versatile of a tool holding method than clamping 3/8-inch square HSS tool bits directly into the lantern tool post. Honing for the finish cut, as Mario did, often helps. Also ensure that you're using the correct speed, feed and DOC for the material cut, the type material cutter used, and for both the roughing cuts and the finish cut as they're different. "Roughness" is a relative term used to describe a surface finish. Often it is not caused entirely by the tool bit. The degree of stability of the shaper during the cutting stroke may cause surface roughness too. That said, do you have any non-needed vibrations in your shaper? Need to track these vibrations down as to source and eliminate them. Maybe your roughness is due to tool "chatter"--maybe something is loose. How's your clapper: snug yet clapping? Are you using properly an outboard traveling table support--it sure makes a table much more "solid"? How about the gibs all over? Are they tite enuf without binding and properly lubricated with waylube? And, then, is your vertical axis gib for the table snugged-up tite--the knee has gotta be locked while cutting. Also, since you're cutting steel, all steels ain't born the same. Make sure you're using quality known designation steel and vary the speed, feed, and DOC based on its type and hardness--use a speed/feed/DOC cutting table. Some steel is junk steel--as in "hardware store steel"--and is classified as steel only becuz it's strongly magnetic and ain't black like iron. This junk is stringy when cut and difficult to get smooth except by grinding; I use it all the time when I don't need a good finish...like most of the time. Also, look at lubrication of the work and cutting bit. Use the proper cutting lubrication for the material worked and cutting bit used. Art (Houston) ------- Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 23:15:33 -0000 From: "al_messer" Subject: Re: tool bit angles Karl, I ground mine just like a lathe tool bit, with not quite so much back rake. On the final cut, I would downfeed about .005" and cover the workpiece with oil or mineral spirits. Al Messer ------- Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2002 21:00:11 -0000 From: "matt_isserstedt " Subject: Armstrong vs. Bare HSS Square I've used plenty of Armstrong-style forged toolbit holders in my small Atlas shaper. However, one guy told me to just run the square toolbit (of a larger size, equal to the slot width on the lantern post) clamped up, no forged holder needed. Any thoughts or experience on this? My opening thoughts are that the forged holder might be a little more rigid since the forging is generally taller. The other thought I had was that grinding wheel time on a 3/8" bit is probably a *lot* less than making up a 5/8" one... -Matt ------- Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2002 16:39:16 -0500 From: "Dave Audette" Subject: Re: Armstrong vs. Bare HSS Square I use both methods. If I want the tool at an angle I'll use an Armstrong but quite often I'll just grab a large bit and use it in the toolpost without a holder. Dave Worcester, Mass www.broncosaurus.net ------- Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 08:49:10 -0600 From: "Ray Ethridge" Subject: Re: Armstrong vs. Bare HSS Square I don't own one of the forged toolbit holders so any perceived advantage is only speculation on my part. I have only used 1/2" toolbits on my Sheldon and they work fine. The problem is that you have to extend them pretty far out to clear things in general. Even though a 3/8" toolbit would have to be less rigid than a 1/2" for the same extension, since the forged holder will hold the bit much closer to the work there should be an overall gain by going to the forged style IF you keep the toolbits close to the end of the tool holder. If you extend the tool way out you have lost any advantage you may have had with the toolholder. Ray Ethridge ------- Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 17:55:39 -0000 From: "k3vyl " Subject: Re: Armstrong vs. Bare HSS Square The real purpose of the armstrong toolholder is to supply the toprake or third angle to a lathe tool,and allow for fine adjustment of the height.This function was lost in antiquity,as most mechanics used them as if they were a solid piece of steel.Since the shaper tool doesn't need to be on center, as a lathe tool does,the toolholder will basicly serve as an extender.Whether the rake angles of the toolholders are suitable for shaper work,I am not sure.I've yet to obtain one of the little gems. RC ------- Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 21:33:34 -0000 From: "Art Volz " Subject: Re: Armstrong vs. Bare HSS Square ??????? What Armstrong toolholder are you talking about? The "Armstrong Planer and Shaper Tool", as depicted and described on page 21 of their 1966 catalog (that I'm currently eye-balling) has ZERO RAKE in the tool--it was designed so that it could also be used "...with the tool bit reversed and the tool turned around, thus throwing the cutting point behind center of tool and working as a "goose neck" tool." The main strength of an Armstrong style SHAPER tooholder is that the toolbit can be held at various angles allowing it, amongst other things, to conveniently shape undercuts which would be impossible to do with just a "big square cigar" tool bit stuck into the lantern tool post. I have an Atlas brand adjustable toolholder which functionally is exactly the same as the #39 Armstrong SHAPER toolholder: ZERO RAKE and RAKE ain't adjustable. LATHE toolholders, which Armstrong also made and continues to make, are different: they come in two main varieties: those for HSS bits where the bit IS held at an angle and those for Carbide bits where the bit is held at zero degrees to the shank. If Armstrong style adjustable SHAPER toolholders are not available for use on a shaper (Armstrong no longer makes any), a LATHE toolholder designed for CARBIDE bits is recommended. RC, you'll see, when you "obtain one of the little gems", a REAL SHAPER toolholder. Art (Houston) ------- Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2002 11:55:19 -0000 From: "tango1niner " Subject: Re: Armstrong vs. Bare HSS Square I like a 3/8 X 3/4 HSS tool bit better than 3/8 square. Much more rigid tool. Anthony ------- Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2003 05:57:58 -0000 From: "don_kinzer " Subject: Shaper Toolholders I was asked on another forum for more detail about the toolholders that I had made for my recent internal spline and gear cutting projects. In response, I put together another page with pictures that may be found here: http://www.kinzers.com/don/MachineTools/shaper_toolholder Don Kinzer Portland, OR ------- Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2003 09:02:48 EST From: jmartin957x~xxaol.com Subject: Re: Shaper Toolholders Don: Nice job on the toolholders. I've been thinking of making a couple myself. Have kept my eyes open for them on eBay and in machinery dealers, but prices have been pretty steep. While I've occasionally used Armstrong lathe toolholders in the shaper (Rhodes), I've generally just used 7/16" tool bits directly in the lantern. Two bits to get the height. If making the toolholders, I might do two things differently. On the extension type, I'd use a setscrew rather than a roll pin, to allow the bar to be rotated. Although, I admit, you'd almost always want it at six o'clock. On the regular holder, I'd cut extra slots at different angles, as in the commercial shaper toolholders. Nice to be able to swing the bit to finish the side of a dovetail or slot, for instance. I've also seen a neat internal toolholder in which the lantern toolpost was replaced by the boring bar itself. Fewer parts, less flex. Shop made, not commercial. John Martin ------- Date: Sat, 08 Mar 2003 15:06:59 +1300 From: Tom Subject: Re: Interesting Shaper Tool Set on Ebay remlapfluke wrote: > I've never used em like this. Does somebody > in the group use these type tools? Do they work well? Jeff Looking at the shape of them, these were intended for lathe use. The toolbits supplied for shaper & planer use were entirely different. O K used to cover the field with 8 different sized toolholders, from 3/8" x 5/4" x 4-1/2" to 1-1/4" x 2-1/2" x 14" The planer & shaper models could be had double ended. Impero, an Italian tooling company now owned by Sandvik made similar tooling both in Carbide & HSS. Tom ------- Date: Fri, 07 Mar 2003 03:07:12 -0000 From: "Art Volz" Subject: Re: Interesting Shaper Tool Set on Ebay Tom--I'm presently looking at Page 156 of one of my numerous olde & original editions of shaper books and it depicts, in Fig. 214, a set of tool bits exactly like the ones pictured on Ebay and a special shaper tool holder with which to hold them so that the rounded portion of the tool bit shank is gripped axially in the direction of cut. The illustration of the tool holder is marked at the tool holding end "STRAIGHT SIZE C" and below it with what appears to read "1/2 #1". The numbered portion may wrong...it's not clear. On the left side of the tool holder shank it is marked "THE O.K. TOOL CO." on top, followed by what appears to read "PATENTED OCT 19, 1905" below it, a diamond logo with "OK" in its center is beneath the patent date, and below it is marked "SHELTON CONN". It is shown in a rectangular container with a square-headed wrench and with 12 shaped inserts, like the ones on eBay, 6 on top and 6 on the bottom: numbers 2, 11L, 9, 1, 17, 22, and numbers 27, 11R, 12, 7, 20, 5. There is also another shaper tool holder that is shown, but it is quite different, and is perhaps the shaper tool holder that you are referring to, Tom. It too uses rounded shank inserts, but of a different type in that the rounded tool bit shanks are held vertically and parallel to the tool holder shank. The drawing of that holder has lettered inscriptions on it, but I am unable to decipher their meaning. One other toolholder is depiced as part of Fig. 214, one that is marked "HAND-GRINDING HOLDER FOR O.K. TOOLS SIZE C". The paragraph that describes Fig. 214 states: "There are also on the market patented sets of tools and tool holders which have many convenient features. The set illustrated in Fig. 214 is made especially for shaper work by the "OK" Tool Company." Hope you don't mind my quotes, Tom. :-) Wish my scanner still worked...it did until my number one son "fixed" it...so I could post a PIC. Art ------- Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2003 12:52:45 -0800 (PST) From: Art Volz Subject: RE: "Shaper" Tool Hold on eBay DeWaynne Tackett wrote: > hey art, i agree it is a great design. > i wish i had one 4 times as large for my 16" G&E. > why do you feel it is not a shaper tool? dewaynne DeWaynne--(I'm also posting this Msg to Metal_Shapers, in reply to your recent posting in re a "shaper" tool holder on eBay listed as number...) Back in the days between the two World Wars, the concept of "springy- ness" was still in vogue amongst old-timer machinists used to operating "springy" machine tools. They had a belief that "springy" tools (I have found NO engineering analysis that says this is true.) gave better finishing cuts on "loose as a goose" machine tools which their oldie machines often were. I have seen one or two very oldie illustrations of such springy tools being proposed for use on shapers, but they were sketches and not actual photos. (Maybe Tom "Shopswarf" M. has further info in his voluminous archives??) From at least 1939 on (the oldest Armstrong catalog I currently have) Armstrong, the largest U.S. manufacturer of lathe and shaper tool holders, offered "springy" "gooseneck" tool holders only for some of their cutoff tool holders and for their "spring threading tool". For shapers, other than for their internal slotting tool holders, they only offered their RIGID adjustable tool holder, although they also stated that the RIGID carbide tool holders (lathes) could also be used. Your tool holder appears to be a one-off and was most likely designed for use on a lathe for threading. However, many different types of tool holders can be stuffed into shaper lantern tool posts and then "declared" as being "shaper tool holders", whether they were designed for that purpose or not. You tool holder appears to have been designed as a "springy gooseneck" "S" (straight) threading tool holder and the design apparently also addresses the problem with "gooseneck" tool holders in that they have a tendency to also spring sideways as well. Your tool holder appears to be extremely well machined, but with a non- characteristic (for industrial use) blued high finish: it does not appear to have been a standard commercial product but a one-off. With the interesting design--probably to counteract springing sideways--and the quality of the work, I suggest that it was most likely a final machining project for a Vo-Tech student or one taking High School Shop. The design appears to be adaptable to larger construction; you should have no difficulty in machining one for your G&E-16 if you so wish. Then you can report back, to this group, on its relative effectiveness when compared, in side-by-side tests, with the standard equivalent sized Armstrong adjustable shaper tool holder. When can we expect your tests to start? When can we expect your results? Art (Houston) ------- Date: Thu, 03 Apr 2003 22:21:48 -0000 From: "dreilanderecht" Subject: Re: "Shaper" Tool Hold on eBay My Ammco came with a set of what I was told were shaper tools, although of course I have no way of knowing if they really were or if that was just the belief of the guy I got it from. The V shape tool and the left and right knife tools are all goosenecked while the two slot tools are not. They are all made from a single piece ot tool steel, forged to form the gooseneck. While they all work well, apart from the one I broke, (dropped on the floor...) I have also used short rigid straight tools with equal success and with no noticeable degradation in surface finish. This might simply prove that the machine is rigid enough not to need spring tools of course. But I would in general argue that it is bad practice to introduce an error to correct another error, unless of course there is no choice. So I suppose if somone does a trial and finds they cannot get a good finish with a rigid tool and can with a spring one, they may as well use them. But I would also check the condition of the machine and take up all gib strips etc to make sure the machine is getting the best chance possible. I have seen it argued that the edge of the tool should be behind the neutral plane of its shank. The argument is that the tool will bend (nothing is totally rigid) and if the edge is too far forward, then the bend will be tending to put the edge deeper into the job. Maybe, but I think the tendency for a tool to pull into the job is more of a problem in practice. Too much top rake can cause the tool to pull downwards which at best leads to chatter and at worst can cause the tool to grab and either stall the machine or break. This is worst with wider tools like slot cutters. Locking the downfeed after setting the cut can help, since any backlash in the feed will let the tool move down into the job if the tool tries to pull it forwards. The Jones and Shipman (like Armstrong) holders that came with my Alba 1A are really meant for a lathe, and so have the built in top rake. This means that they need to be ground to remove most of this and only provide the rake that is actually needed. If any lathe owner happens to have the opposite problem I would consider a swap! You can make a very satisfactory tool by brazing a small piece of HSS onto a good stout mild steel shank. This lets you use up those little bits of tool steel that are too good to throw away and too small to fit a holder. The heat needed to temper HSS is higher than brazing temperature, at least the ones I have done do not appear to have been adversely affected. I also have a home made looking holder that came with the Alba 1A with the gooseneck formed by drilling and cutting a slot to it, much the same idea as the one on Ebay, but without any side support. It takes a round toolbit held by a grubscrew. Have to confess I have never taken a cut with it. Incidentally a truly sharp tool needs much less cutting force than a dull one, so maybe a diamond hone would be a better investment than a spring tool. regards John ------- Date: Thu, 03 Apr 2003 23:13:59 -0000 From: "Art Volz" Subject: Re: "Shaper" Tool Hold on eBay John--There are many illustrations, in my older books, of forged tools for shapers with goose necks, as you describe, being part of the original forging. In fact Emanuele Stieri's CY1942 book "Shapers" depicts such a forged tool bit. I have a number of other oldie books that also depict similar forged tool bits with goose necks. Interestingly, John, about 1984 I purchased, from Wholesale Tool in Houston, a "J & S" (Jones and Shipman) 1/4-inch bit size Carbide (bit is held parallel to the shank w/o any top rake) lathe tool holder. (It was intended for use on my lathe of the time, a c. 1890 John and W.F. Barnes 4-1/2 "Velocipede" that had been adapted, by the previous owner, for a 1/4 HP motor. It was a very old lathe then (and much older today) and was really "loose as a goose" and could never really get up safely to the speed (babbitt bearings and all) required for effective use of carbide tooling. My usual method of "finishing" with it was with judicious manual applications of Swedish milling machines (bastard cut files) followed by some wet/dry polishing paper of extra fine grit.) Now, I can use my J&S holder, for "straight" applications, in my Lewis-10 and when I'm not using my Armstrong adjustable. > You can make a very satisfactory tool by brazing a small piece of HSS > onto a good stout mild steel shank. Good idea! The use of the round tool bit is interesting in itself. I wonder if the designer/maker had an application that required a round tool bit, or that it was just easier to form the bit-holding-hole with a round hole (drilling/reaming) rather than with a square one (drilling/broaching)? Machine tools enjoy the use of really sharp HSS tool bits; the recommendation of a diamond hone is a good one. I think, if I remember correctly, that Mario V. described how he final honed his shaper tool bits with such a diamond hone. (Mario?) Art (Houston) ------- Date: Fri, 04 Apr 2003 00:03:59 -0000 From: "dreilanderecht" Subject: Re: "Shaper" Tool Hold on eBay I've used carbide quite a lot. Although it is true that to get the productivity gains that are possible you need a machine that is proportionately faster, you can also benefit from an excellent surface finish, provide you have the means to sharpen them. I have a Glendo Accu-finish diamond wheel machine, with wheels of 260, 600, and 1200 grit. This gives a lovely finish on either carbide or HSS. So that is an excellent machine to have...usual disclaimer applies, I don't own shares in the company. There is a disadvantage, the wheel is wetted with a water based compound, and the power switch is not well protected against water getting in. Mine went with quite a bang while I was lapping with the wheel horizontal, one of the modes you can use. (Lapping the sides of home made piston rings on the fine wheel is a good idea.) I know that some say that you should not use carbide on the shaper unless you have a positive lifting mechanism on the clapper box. It is bad for the edge to be dragged backwards on the job and it is liable to chip. I've got away with it so far, very successfully, so I probably won't let it worry me until it happens. There are of course a lot of variations, both in the carbide itself, and also these days with the ceramics, which I have no experience with myself. The bits I am using are uncoated triangular inserts which were used industrially and then given away at our club. They would be no use without some means to sharpen them. I braze them onto a key steel shank, then sharpen them up. They are good for starting out on castings where you might find hard spots...although again they are not supposed to like interrupted cuts, but seem to cope pretty well in practice. I did once find that the weld in the middle of Stuart Double Ten crankshaft was too hard for even the carbide to tackle, so made a new one from solid. (Don't be put off, Stuart no longer make those shafts by welding two pieces together. I think I found out why!) I'm not sure why the hole in the holder was made round, maybe he had a piece of round HSS to use. The round stuff can be handy, but best to only use it where you will want to adjust the angle, otherwise it can be fiddly making sure you have the correct side rake. Of course your swedish mill can make a round hole square without too much trouble! regards John ------- Date: Sat, 5 Apr 2003 10:51:30 -0600 From: "Mario L Vitale" Subject: Re: Re: "Shaper" Tool Hold on eBay Just so you know I haven't died, I'm responding to Art's comment below... > Machine tools enjoy the use of really sharp HSS tool bits; the > recommendation of a diamond hone is a good one. I think, if I > remember correctly, that Mario V. described how he final honed his > shaper tool bits with such a diamond hone. (Mario?) > Art (Houston) That's right, I do frequently hone/lap (hmmm...just what IS the difference? honing is a powered operation and lapping is a hand operation? or is honing for 'surfaces of revolution' [things you make on a lathe] and lapping is for planer surfaces.....I'll let Art write a treatise on that. ) Nothing fancy, I just use a fine diamond lap that you can find in any woodworking store or catalog. It's a strip of industrial diamond abrasive, about 1' x 2 1/2", glued to a plastic handle. they come in various grades, medium, fine, etc...., but I use the fine (red handle). I just give each surface that intersects with the cutting edge "a few licks" making sure to keep the lap in contact with the entire surface to avoid forming a radius at the cutting edge. They work fine dry, but I've found they seem to work even better with some form of "cutting fluid". I saw a British woodturner demonstrating their use for touching up woodturning tools, which are now predominantly HSS....that's where I initially started using them. He recommended using 'tongue oil' and then proceeded to lick that lap with his tongue to get a little moisture on it! I suspect any very thin liquid...water, kerosene, WD-40,.... would work fine. I'm guessing all you are doing is allowing the "chips" to float off, rather than load up the abrasive surface. The nice thing is it's quick, simple and inexpensive. he laps cost about $7.00 and if used appropriately, last a long time.I've had one for about 3 years and it still is effective. Try it, you'll like it. Mario ------- Date: Sat, 05 Apr 2003 16:42:15 -0600 From: jrw Subject: Re: Re: "Shaper" Tool Hold on eBay Mario: I agree about a fine finish on the tools. I have a bench grinder with a diamond face wheel for final finish on my lathe and shaper tools. I grind very lightly dry. The "tongue oil" is an amusing comment. Many of the tool vendors have a small diamond sharpening block on their counters for customers to touch up their pocket knives and a small bottle of water to squirt on the block. Joe Williams ------- Date: Sat, 5 Apr 2003 21:14:44 -0600 From: "Mario L Vitale" Subject: Re: Re: "Shaper" Tool Hold on eBay Joe: Yes, I got a chuckle out of that myself. Funny you should mention the bench grinder with diamond face wheel. When I was still at McDonnell, we had a pre-production assembly shop, and we decided to set up a small machine shop for quick turn around repair parts... when you assemble airplanes, you drill and ream lots of close tolerance (half-thou or better) holes, so you need lots of repair bushings!?!?! We "drafted" one of our better all around machinist and I asked him what kind of equipment he thought he needed, he very quickly answered " a Hardinge lathe, a #1 Moore Jig Bore, and a good bench grinder with a diamond face wheel". He didn't have to re-make very many bushings!!! Mario ------- Date: Sun, 06 Apr 2003 07:50:10 -0000 From: "dreilanderecht" Subject: Re: wetting agent for diamond lapping The Glendo people that my machine came from provide a magic substance for the wheel. It is yellow stuff in a little bottle, and I suspect that it is a wetting agent, eg a detergent. Anyway, you dilute this stuff down with lots of water, to the extent that I suspect pure water could hardly be much different. If I ever run out (Dad bought the machine in the 80's and there is still plenty) I will just use water with a little household detergent. Incidently the wheels seem to be holding up well, so although the initial cost is not low, I think it is a good long term buy. regards John ------- Date: Fri, 04 Apr 2003 03:22:27 -0000 From: "mike" Subject: G&E 16" shaper I recently purchased a 16" G&E shaper from a party in Memphis, Tenn. I had a neighbor who drives semi pick it up for me and he just arrived with it today. It seems in good shape and complete with the exception that the clapper block is missing. I was thinking of making one with my lathe. I don't have much experience with a shaper of this size and I was wondering if anyone could tell me how big to make the toolpost slot and what size cutters it would use, etc. I figured I would turn it out of a block of mild steel--does anyone see any problems with this?? Any comments would be appreciated. thanks, Mike ------- Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2003 21:31:46 -0600 From: "LEW BEST" Subject: RE: G&E 16" shaper Hi Mike: I just traded for a 16" G & E; will get it in a week or 2. It has the toolpost & a toolholder; as soon as I get it I'll post the dimensions if no one else has. Lew ------- Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2003 22:34:08 -0600 From: "Clint D" Subject: Re: G&E 16" shaper Mike: You might also join the gingery machines group. there are plans there building a gingery shaper, you can get some ideas there using your measurements. Most there cast the parts out of aluminum http://www.groups.yahoo.com/group/gingery_machines Clint ------- Date: Fri, 04 Apr 2003 08:29:02 -0000 From: "dreilanderecht" Subject: Re: G&E 16" shaper-toolpost The toolpost and clapper should be made as two parts. This allows the toolpost to be angled relative to the clapper box which is sometimes necsessary The usual approach is that the clapper is a rectangular block to fit the box, with a taper hole across the top, and a hole in the face to take the toolpost. The toolpost has a flange on the back so the block hole is releived at the back to accomodate that. To give an idea of suitable sizes. my Alba 4S (18 inch shaper) has the following sizes for the post itself: Overall length 4.5 inches Diameter 1.25 Flange diameter 1.625 flange length .430 slot width .688 (11/16) slot length 2 The slot starts about 1.25 from the ends and the ends are rounded. The screw is 5/8 diameter. The end tapers down to about 1 inch over the last 7/8 inch, this is of course purely cosmetic. Since the round part of the slot is not completely inside the clapper, there is a round washer about quarter of an inch thick for the tool to bear on. This also helps avoid the tool marking the clapper. The fit in the clapper should be close but able to turn without too much effort. The clapper part is an ideal part for the shaper to make, if only you had one already! There was a clapper and toolpost about the right size for sale at one of the dealers here, probably still there if you wanted it, but the chances would be that the clapper would be the wrong size, and the postage might be a killer. regards John ------- Date: Sat, 05 Apr 2003 23:18:13 -0000 From: "mike" Subject: Re: G&E 16" shaper-toolpost thanks for the help John. I'll make mine the same as yours. I already made Gingery's little shaper so I could use that to machine the clapper block and cut the toolpost slot. There is one other problem I noticed, though, and that is the pin that the clapper block pivots on is tapered and I would need to find out what taper it is and buy a reamer for it or something--maybe someone knows what taper it is. thanks again mike ------- Date: Sun, 06 Apr 2003 06:10:04 -0000 From: "xtrucker_1999" Subject: Re: G&E 16" shaper-toolpost mike, i got the entire clapper assembly off of a 20" cincinatti at a junkyard and it was easy to adapt to my 16" G&E. ------- Date: Sun, 06 Apr 2003 07:44:18 -0000 From: "dreilanderecht" Subject: Re: G&E 16" shaper-toolpost It is probably easier to find out a taper that will fit the existing box, then ream both the parts together. The idea of the taper is that when it gets a little worn, you can tap the pin in a little to take it up. An oil hole on the clapper is a good idea. Not all are tapered, my Ammco one is not. But then, that is probably not the original either. regards John ------- Date: Mon, 07 Apr 2003 21:51:22 -0000 From: "Art Volz" Subject: Re: tooling suggestions for Atlas shaper In Metal_Shapersx~xxyahoogroups.com, "lkasdorf"wrote: > I just picked up an Atlas 7" shaper, and I need to work out what > tooling to get for it. > It came with a lathe tool holder, but this holds the bit at an angle > whereas it should be perpendicular to the work. Hi Ike--Buy a carbide type lathe tool holder that holds the tool bit parallel to the shank. The size you want is one that holds a 1/4 inch square tool bit, but you'll be using HSS instead of carbide. An Amstrong T-0-S with shank cross section of about 3/8 x 7/8 is the size that your're looking for. HSS is the proper tool bit for most of the slower speed capable shapers, not carbide. Whereas HSS can operate effectively from very slow speeds to up to where its starts overheating and loosing its hardness, carbide really only starts to cut well at the higher speeds. > I think some folks directly mount a cutter into the lantern. I could > do this- what size tool blank should I get (and where should I get it??) You can do this, although a carbide-style tool holder will work well. The size that you should use is the size of the slot in your tool post unless you employ packing to reduce the slot opening. You buy this stuff from tool supply houses. Use Google to find these guys: Wholesale Tool; Rutlands/Airgas; J&L; MSC; Travers; Victor Tool Exchange; others. Request their catalogs right off. > I was given a carbide tipped lathe cutter. I ground the shank down > so it would fit in the shaper. It sorta works, but the results are not > good. Even when i just use the corner of the bit and take tiny > strokes, it just doesn't do a good job. I suppose the angles on the > cutter are just inappropriate. It's not just the angles. (See my comments B4). Although not totally scientifically true, think of very sharp HSS tooling as "cutting" the metal off while carbide, at higher speeds, "pushes" the metal off. Carbide tools often are "un-sharpened" with a land or flat across what would be a very sharp edge on a HSS tool bit to preclude chipping the edge. If you contact Kennemetal or Sandvik ask for their lathe (very similar cutting action as shapers) tooling manuals (free)--there's tool info in these manuals that ain't nowhere else. > What is a cheap way to get started with tooling for a small shaper? Tooling is never cheap: machine tools are cheap, and then it costs a fortune in tooling and accessories to get them running properly. But, start by getting a straight "S" carbide tool holder and a 1/4 square HSS tool bit as I stated above...it won't get much cheaper than that. > I also need the 3/8" square drive crank handle. Know of a source > for these? Do you mean the "S7-100 Crank" for tightening the "S7-91 Vise"? After-market import CI crank handles are available from many of the B4 mentioned tool houses. Wholesale tool has one for $10 with a 1/2- inch square opening that is easily sleeved to 3/8-inch. Art (Houston) ------- Date: Tue, 08 Apr 2003 00:04:12 -0000 From: "dreilanderecht" Subject: Re: tooling suggestions for Atlas shaper You can use the lathe type holders but need to reduce the rake as it tends to be excessive on the lathe type toolholders. They make for a lot of grinding when starting out with a new bit, something they were intended to reduce. Another approach is to use large chunks of toolsteel, just sharpened up and clamped in the toolpost, but these are expensive if you have to buy pieces big enough. You would probably want about 3/8 by half inch or even bigger for a seven inch shaper. I have a couple of chunks that came with the machines, but wouldn't want to replace them. You will also realise that there is no way that you can ever use the whole piece, eg after many sharpenings it will be too short to reach. Which brings us to the next suggestion, since most of it will never be used to cut, there is no reason why it should be toolsteel. Braze a small piece of High Speed Steel onto the end of a shank to make a tool as long as you need with only the end hard. You can braze the tip into a hole in the end to make a stronger job. This is also useful for special cutters like T slot cutters. Silver solder is ideal stuff for the brazing. You can also braze carbide tips onto a shank, and I have had good success with these. Although it is true that mostly our shapers don't run fast enough to justify carbide for extra productivity, it can be handy for castings with a tough skin like you sometimes get on iron. However, it is not renowned for liking intermittent cuts, which a shaper always is. Note that I am only talking about the "ordinary" old carbide, there are lots of other things now like ceramics which are probably not suited to shaper use. You would have to know what you were doing at least. There is a type of tool holder you can make from a steel bicycle crank. (Just the bit that goes from pedal to the crank axle.) You make a bolt to go through the eye where the pedal used to screw and cut a square hole just under the head of the bolt. That lets you bolt a piece of HSS at any needed angle...the other end is shortened back to a suitable length and goes in the tool post. The beauty of the shaper is that most of your work will be carried out with: A roughing out tool, shaped like a letter V as seen from the front, with just a small flat at the bottom of the V A left and a right knife tool for cutting down vertical faces and into corners. (Like up to a shoulder>) A slotting tool or two, like a lathe parting off tool. Not too narrow because they get fragile, and not too wide or the machine will complain by chattering. That makes four or five, and apart from making dovetails and T slots they will do just about anything you want. You can also make a finishing tool that will give a better finish, there is a description somewhere in the posts I think. So something like US$20 will pretty well set you up for life.... Where you can get this sort of stuff will depend where you are, in any city of reasonable size there should be someone stocking HSS, otherwise there are lots of places who will mailorder it to you. The cheating way of getting a 3/8 square drive is to braze a 3/8 inch drive socket onto a piece of flat steel bar, hex side down, drill a hole at the other end of the bar, and drill through a big wooden file handle. Use locknuts to bolt the wooden handle in place so it can turn freely. I did this on Sunday myself, only my socket had to be 3/4 inch drive since the shaper is a bit bigger. Since the socket is probably plated, you want to take the plating off before you try to braze, I used a belt sander. I dunno about anywhere else, but the local second hand dealer hates to let go of a handle on its own, since he keeps getting vices that don't have them. regards John ------- Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2003 20:37:20 -0000 From: "Art Volz" Subject: Logan Shaper Accessories (AKA: Thanx Scott!) Scott has uploaded a Logan shaper sales specification sheet that answers (I think it does) some questions that I have had as to the nature of the shaper tool holder and extension tool holder that Logan offered. The PIXs on the sales flyer of both the adjustable tool holder and the extension tool holder look to be spittin'images of the ones pictured in the contemporary Armstrong Bros. Tool Co. (Chicago) catalog of the time. There are some additional "keyway tool holders", not in the Armstrong catalog, that appear to probably be Logan originals. Both #80280, 7/16-inch OD keyway tool holder, and it's bigger brother #80281 5/8-inch OD keyway tool holder, appear to be adaptors for converting the adjustable tool holder #540 to have the capability to also cut internal keyways similar to the method that I also arrived at. (See my two shaper tool holder drawings in "files".) Armstrong used a different method with bushings to allow larger extension tool holders to be down-sized with smaller extension bars. This latter method was not possible with the Logan as (see specs in flyer) its tool slot dimension in the lantern tool post were only 7/16 W x 7/8 H and thus would only hold the smaller Armstrong tools: the #46 extension tool holder (max bar size 1/2" OD) and the #39 adjustable tool holder--both had 3/8 W x 7/8 H shank cross- sections. Thanx again, Scott. Art (Houston) ------- Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2003 20:55:30 -0000 From: "Art Volz" Subject: Re: Where to buy tooling for my 10" shaper: After the Wedding is... In Metal_Shapersx~xxyahoogroups.com, "extratec2001" wrote: > Can someone tell me where to buy tooling for my 10" shaper? I want to > be able to cut key ways in pulleys, splines on a shaft and to surface > a piece of steel or aluminum. I tried Ebay and Enco with no luck. A > web address, link or phone number would be helpful, along with a > part number(s) if you have them. Thanks, Regis ...after the wedding is over...and you arise and notice that your new spouse has false teeth.*** Regis--You, like I, Tom, Charles, and Mario, have wedded sisters...from the '40's and '50's. Lewis made raw shaper kits and semi-finished ones. The last Lewis ad I remember seeing was a 1/2-incher in a 1- inch column in a 1957 Mechanix Illustrated magazine. Both the magazine and Lewis Machine Tool Company of LA are long dead...and almost forgotten. When Lewis made kits, the only accessory that they made for the 10-inch shaper was their 7-inch swivel base vise which you (you lucky devil!!) have. They offered a dividing-centers kit for their horizontal mill that had a shipping weight of 11 lbs (no other dimensional data stated) and could be provided with one gear- like index plate of 48 teeth. The buyer/maker of a Lewis shaper was expected to find and provide, by himself, whatever other tooling he thought he needed, either by making his own or by buying, and perhaps modifying as necessary. We and you are now in that same situation, but 50 years later. No one makes shapers anymore, and their tooling and accessories, except for a very few companies in India, PRC, and perhaps (still) Viet Nam. Shapers, in the USA, started to die out in the '60's, at least for American manufacturers who wished to continue in business. Depending on the size slot in your lantern tool post, either an Amstrong #39 (or Atlas) or the larger #40 adjustable tool holder is needed for most external shaping; these can be found in the used tool/tooling market, but expect to pay REAL MONEY for one. Carbide tool holders, which will hold a HSS tool bit parallel to the shank when gripped in the toolpost, are also available on the used tool market; depending on your tool post slot dimensions, look for a T-0-S or a T-1-S, although the "R" (right) and the "L" left shapes, in the same shank sizes, are useable as well. Import carbide tool holders are relatively inexpensive and readily available from most tool houses. Shaper extension tool holders, for internal cutting such as slots, can also sometimes be found on the used tool market at REAL MONEY prices. However, making a set of toolholders, for one with only moderate skills, should not be difficult--see my 2 dimensioned drawings at "files" here--with much of the work being done on your shaper to include revolving the holder via it's "hole", appropriately held in a jig affixed to your shaper table, to get the "rounded" end the way that Nasmyth would have most certainly done it. Other stuff, such as the dividing centers, could also be home-brewed using gears (temporarily, perhaps, "stolen" from your lathe) as index plates. These centers don't have to be beautiful--welding and brazing are OK--they just have to work. Consider the possibility of starting with a pair of el cheapo and small angle plates. There are also numerous domestic and import dividing/indexing heads. Smaller ones of this genre can be found at both http://www.lathemaster.com and http://littlemachineshop.com. Bigger ones are available from Victor, J&L, Travis, Wholesale Tool, Rutlands/Airgas, ENCO, MSC, and numerous others. Your vise (you lucky devil...you!!) is the primary parts holder for use on your Lewis-10. I suggest that before you get too fancy as in cutting splines, etc., that you and your vise become intimate friends, and daily partners. (Gosh, I wish I had your vise...and not the weirdo, funny looking thing that I have adapted for use until I can find the "Real Thing".) As I have stated before, expect the tooling and accessories, especially if they are original items, to cost REAL MONEY and often much in excess of the price paid for the shaper itself. Enjoy the quest for these tools and accessories...make the journey, itself, fun! Art (Houston) ------- Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2003 21:29:48 -0000 From: "dreilanderecht" Subject: Re: Where to buy tooling for my 10" shaper: After the Wedding is... Art, you ought to copy that last message into "my" shaping for beginners file area. I must admit that the concept of being able to buy ready made tools for a shaper seems rather a novel one to me, I suppose once upon a time you could. Anyway this is another chance to plug my favourite cheap idea of brazing odd lengths of tool steel onto a suitable shank, eg a piece of mild steel bar. A box of quarter or 5/16 square HSS tool blanks should not cost a fortune, even if you buy the really good stuff. Some of these ideas were discussed within the last couple of weeks, so it would be worth going back through the posts. Surely someone could use their vice as a pattern to make you up a set of castings...seems a legitimate approach for something that was supplied as a kit in the first place. You need to build up the areas that will be machined of course, with something temporarily stuck on, like heavy card. I'm busy making a pattern for the Ammco vice base, might make up the patterns for the between centres attachment too while I am about it. regards John ------- Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2003 14:19:12 EDT From: jmartin957x~xxaol.com Subject: Re: WANTED: Plans to make a boring bar holder In a message dated 4/23/03, extratec2001x~xxyahoo.com writes: << I am looking for plans to make a boring bar for my 10" shaper. Anyone got one that I can take a look at? I know they should be simple to make without plans, but why re-invent the wheel? Regis >> I saw one someplace that did not use the Armstrong type shank - the boring bar was either integral with the toolpost or was held directly by the toolpost. The post, rather than relying on the clamping pressure from the toolholder to hold it to the clapper, was threaded for a large nut. Looked like a pretty neat idea to me, as it would be much more rigid. On the negative side, the bar would be fixed length and wouldn't have the clearance adjustability of the Armstrong type holder. John Martin ------- Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2003 19:33:37 -0000 From: "Art Volz" Subject: Re: WANTED: Plans to make a boring bar holder--HUH??? Regis--What do you mean? Do you really mean "How do I make an extension slotter tool holder for my shaper?" If so, see my set of plans at "files". Also look at Scott Logan's recently posted Logan-8 shaper sales brochure to "see" the slotter adaptors for use with the shank of a "normal" Armstrong type adjustable tool holder. Alternatively, for a small Type-46 slotter extension type holder, just make an adjustable type shank, without the castellations perhaps, with a set screw, thru the side, fixing a sized to fit off- the-shelf (and perhaps shortened) HSS-tooled boring bar. I fail to see the problem...if there is one. Art (Houston) ------- Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2003 18:40:50 -0500 From: jrw Subject: Re: Re: WANTED: Plans to make a boring bar holder--HUH??? Art: I think the writer is all screwed up with his wording as I think he wants to make a holder for a boring bar using his shaper. JRW ------- Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 01:57:04 -0000 From: "extratec2001" Subject: Re: WANTED: Plans to make a boring bar holder--HUH??? Yes - JRW is sort of correct. I just want to use my shaper to make key ways in pulleys. I have a slotting bar, but no holder. But no problem, I justed picked up an Armstrong no.48 tool holder that I think will work. I paid $25 for it. Is that a fair price? Regis ------- Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 02:59:34 +0000 From: mariol.vitalex~xxatt.net Subject: Re: Re: WANTED: Plans to make a boring bar holder--HUH??? Regis, I know this might sound lik a smart aleck answer, but it is not meant to be. If you were willing to pay $25 for it and it does what you expected it to do, it was a fair price. The reason I responded was to make the point that so many folks ask what is a fair price, or what is the best ---, We really need to remember that for most of us, this is a hobby, and what is the best 'whatever' depends a whole lot on what it is you as an individual wants to do with it and what your skill level is. And if a "fair price" is more than you can afford to spend on a hobby, then it is irrelevant. Mind you, I'm not being critical, I just think it's a shame when I see folks wait around for "the best 'whatver', or the "cheapest" price...and deprive themselves of the joy of experimenting and "learning by doing". My recommendation is, by golly, if you are interested enough in something to try it, go out and find something inexpensive (you have no qualms about spending that amount of money for it) that you think will do what you want it to do, and try it. What ever the outcome, you will have learned something and the lesson will have been inexpensive. If it does not do what you expected it to do, and you are still interested in doing it, you will now be much better able to make a sensible purchase the next time around. I apologize for the preaching, but I'd much rather see folks making things than wishing they were making things. as they say, life's too short! Keep asking questions, Mario ------- Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 03:15:26 -0000 From: "dreilanderecht" Subject: Re: WANTED: Plans to make a keyway cutter Have to say the way I did an internal keyway was a lot cheaper. I used a piece of gauge plate, a piece of flat steel bar, and a piece of round steel stock. It is described in the files section in the basic shaper operations area. It does take a bit longer to set up, but helps ensure alignment of the resulting keyway. But then I am known to be mean, my idea of expensive tooling is anything that costs more than a stick of quarter inch square HSS. regards John ------- Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2003 16:40:12 -0000 From: "Art Volz" Subject: Tool Bit Sizes For Shaper Tool Holders FYI: The HSS steel tool bits used in Armstrong size shaper tool holders are NOT square, except for the smallest No. 39 size. All of the rest require RECTANGULAR bits. Square bits can be sometimes utilized if an appropriate flat shim is used between the bit and the top head of the securing slotted tool bolt. Do not machine this head to try to "fix" it so that it will hold square bits: it was designed (except for the 39) to hold rectangular ones. The proper size HSS tool bits can be difficult to locate in a carbide world, but Production Tool Supply (800-366-3600, http://www.pts-tools.com ) has the correct sizes listed on page L-468 of their CY2003 catalog. They have them in M2 HSS as well as 5% Cobalt and Super Cobalt at higher prices. A list of tool holders, their appropriate tool bit size, PTS' stock number, and current price is listed below: No. 39--1/4 square; No. 40--1/4x3/8--FC53-040604 x~xx $3.95; No. 401-- 5/16x7/16--FC53-050703 x~xx $4.50; No. 41--3/8x1/2--FC53-060804 x~xx $5.30; No. 42--1/2X3/4--FC53-081204 x~xx $9.90; No. 43--5/8x7/8--FC53-101406 x~xx $20.50; No. 44--3/4x1--FC53-121607 x~xx $24.25; No. 45--7/8x1-1/8--Not Stocked. Art (Houston) ------- Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 19:30:19 -0000 From: "Art Volz" Subject: Indexable Inserts: HSS & Carbide Check out http://www.littlemachineshop.com/info/inserts.php . Listed are 1/4 inch and 3/8 inch shank lathe turning tool holders with triangular inserts available in both carbide (for those with high speed--300fpm--capable shapers such as Ray E's Rockford Hydraulic) and in HSS (for the majority of us). Perhaps a bit pricey for the Warner HSS (USA) inserts, but may be worth while & fun experimenting with. The 1/4 inch shank indexable tool will fit the #39 size adjustable (Armstrong type) shaper tool holder and the #40 size with a shim. The 3/8 inch shank tool will fit a #41 tool also with a shim; the #41 is the one normally used with the 24-inch Rockford Hydraulic while the 1/4 inch shank tool is the one normally used with 7-inch & 8-inch shapers and with some of the 10-inch shapers (like my Lewis) equipped with a smaller, non-OEM, tool post. For those interested in purusing extensive shaper tool cutting data, go to your local college engineering library and look for the "Machining Data Handbook" in the "Reserve" section. Here in Houston, I have used copies of the 3rd Edition (c. 1990's) at both the North Harris County Community College Library and at Anderson Library, on the main campus of the University of Houston. At home I have my own personal copy of the 2d Edition (c. 1970's) which doesn't have as an extensive of a listing as does the 3rd Edition (more than 20 pages). Shaper cutting data is listed under the heading of "Planing" and has entries for both HSS AND carbide tools. (The section on "Turning" has an additional category for "Cast Alloy" tooling = Tantung, Crobalt, Rexalloy, Stellite-J, Armaloy, and other non-steel high speed Cobalt-Chrome-Tungsten alloys.) Enjoy! Art (Houston) ------- Date: Sat, 27 Sep 2003 15:42:46 -0000 From: "Art Volz" Subject: UPDATE: Re: Tool Bit Sizes For Shaper Tool Holders In Metal_Shapersx~xxyahoogroups.com, n8as1x~xxa... wrote: >> art....armstrong gooseneck tools ,think S-51 ,S-52 are listed as threading tool bit holders ,& are rotational....they knock off for MUCH less than the rigid tool hldr....why arent these as functional ,or better?..( have a few ,but dont have the larger shapers up & running to try out).....my gooseneck lathe cutoff tools, u wud have to pry from my cold dead fingers ....can cut off at 50% more speed w/out chatter << Doc--It's like anything else--if you can get tags for it, and get a license to drive it, you can roll it on the highways. In Nappannee (sp?), Indiana, they still drive horse drawn buggies. The slang term for them locally (amongst the non Amish) is: "Splat! Mobile". The gooseneck tools that you describe were designed for continuous lathe turning of threads--they WERE NOT designed for the much heavier and interrupted cuts of shaping. No where, in any of Armstrong catalogs (and I have a number of them), does Armstrong even hint at the possibility of their use as shaper tools. They do recommend, however, the use of their carbide tool holders, which also hold the tool bit perpendicular to the axis of the ram stroke, as alternatives. Whereas used adjustable shaper tool holders are somewhat pricey, when found, suitable import carbide tool holders can be readily located for about 15 bucks each. Like the adjustable shaper tool holders they are extremely rigid and will function well in heavy interrupted shaping type cutting operations. But, if one only has a buggy...and the Interstate beckons...go for it. There is an old grade school jingle, one of the few decent ones that I still remember, that may be appropo: A peanut stood on the railroad track, His heart was all a-flutter. Nine-fifteen came 'round the bend, "Toot! Toot!"...peanut butter. Art (Houston North 'n gettin' ready for brunch: maybe a peanut butter sandwich on a fennel-seeded potato-flour Italian bagel...with cream cheese and pickled garlic slices....before watchin' my alma mater ND get mauled again??? Decisions, decisions.) ------- Date: Sat, 27 Sep 2003 15:06:36 EDT From: n8as1x~xxaol.com Subject: Re: UPDATE: Re: Tool Bit Sizes For Shaper Tool Holders Art .....that jingle really dates us ....but i remember the 3rd line as "along came a choo choo train " ..then thepeanut butter ....heard my wife reciting it last week to my least grandchild age 6 ...reckon we are getting close to the second childhood yes ..i picked up a couple USA carbide holders on e bay that no one else wanted much these thrdng tool holders are not near as solid ...may work well for a wide finishing cut w/ shaper.........have used them to play w/ rough hogged straight in threading cuts & then clean up w/VERY lite cuts ... much quicker i have a 3/6 bit shop built gooseneck toolhldr that can put a 60deg point on a bar (full 3/8 flat ) at near normal rpm...deflects down 1/16 in ,but NO chatter...think goosenecks & elevating cross slides (1895 reed) may be worthy of a resurgence or t least a reevaluation ... best wishes docn8as ------- Date: Mon, 08 Dec 2003 22:48:13 -0000 From: "dreilanderecht" Subject: Re: got rockford 16" now need big gooseneck I've tried carbide tools in the shapers, with great success. The bits I used were second hand plain triangular pieces with no holes or built in rake/chip deflectors. I silver solder them to a mild steel shank and sharpen them with a diamond wheel. Of course, I have no idea what type of inserts these are, so YMMV. Conventional wisdom used to be that carbide does not like interrupted cuts due to the shock loading... all I can say is that these seem to hold up fine. Possibly modern carbides are less brittle than the old ones. The other objection I hear from time to time is that both the shapers and the lathes that I am using these on don't actually go fast enough to get the improved productivity that carbide can give. That is possibly true, but the other advantages still hold...the edge of the tool lasts longer and the finish is improved. The latter especially applies when they have been sharpened with the diamond wheel, which leaves a beautiful finish on the carbide. I suspect that carbide might be best with a really rigid toolholder rather than a gooseneck. But don't let that stop you experimenting, we might all learn something regards John ------- Date: Fri, 26 Dec 2003 20:03:41 -0000 From: volzmechatronicx~xxyahoo.com Subject: Re: Shaper Tool Post: Stupid Question > What is the function of the ring that fits under the tool holder? Unlike a lathe, the lantern tool post on a shaper is designed to directly hold the tool or the tool holder at 90 degrees to the work without a rocker as on a lathe. The sides of the clapper box and the front of the clapper are usually machined flush. A washer, a ring, or a serrated plate move the clamping surface in front of the clapper box's sides. Smaller shapers commonly use a washer like ring as the clamping surface as one would use under a bolt head. For one, it precludes the clapper itself from being marred when a tool or holder is clamped against it and a washer, a ring, or a plate is cheaply replaceable. Atlas refers to the S7-65 simply as a "Washer"; my Lewis has a similar washer. Some of the larger shapers use a square serrated plate that is machine-screwed to the front of the clapper as a clamping surface. One book refers to the serrations: "The serrations on the plate...prevent the tool from slipping during the cutting process." The Armstrong style adjustable tool holder can be clamped "backwards" in the tool post...with the tool bit reversed also...which will reduce any tendancy for the tool to "dig-in" when held "normally" in the outboard position. An "I"-block can also be used in between the tool holder and the tool post screw to preclude marring of the top of the tool holder shank. This is a piece of thin flat plate whose column width matches the width of the tool post slot and whose head and foot keeps it from falling out when the tool holder is adjusted or removed. Or, as the book states: "A block is placed ahead of the tool-post screw to prevent indentations which are likely to occur on the tool holder when pressure from the tool-post screw is applied in the same place repeatedly. Art ------- Date: Fri, 05 Mar 2004 23:47:05 -0000 From: "Don Kinzer" Subject: Re: Tool Holder question > What is a good steel to fabricate a tool holder out of? > I've had good luck with the type that has iron in it. ;) Seriously, though, I don't think that it matters that much. I've used some hot rolled and cold rolled stock that I had in the scrap bin with good results. ------- Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2004 00:51:09 -0000 From: volzmechatronicx~xxyahoo.com Subject: Speeds, Feeds, and DOCs wuz Re: Progress Update - 7" Ammco refurb "Frank Hasieber" wrote: > HI, interesting, in the latest Model Engineers Workshop, Harold Hall > does a project on the Adept hand powered shaper all with carbide > tooling, from the pics with great success!! Frank >> Your AMMCO shaper is a HSS tool material type shaper. It was not >> designed to cut at the speeds required by carbide tooling. Each >> work material has different cutting speeds for the type tool >> material used. Frank--It doesn't mean that carbide won't work at low speeds, but industrially, if carbide tooling is used, it is normally because the user wants the higher cutting speeds that carbide allows. "Normal" industrial carbide tooling does not have a real sharp edge as it comes from the factory. Being brittle, a "chamfer" is honed on the edge to reduce the chance of chipping and a "land" for smoothing the metal cut. At the higher carbide cutting speeds the metal really isn't "cut" like with a sharp knife, but is pushed off in plastic like condition. (You have to see the Sandvik video to appreciate that this really happens.) Interrupted cutting, as a shaper does at the beginning of each cutting stroke (lifter needed for retract), also has a tendency to chip the carbide tool's cutting edge. This chamfered edge does NOT normally give a smooth cut at slower speeds like HSS will. If you look in either Sandvik's or Kennametal's tool catalogs (they'll send you them for free) you'll see graphical cutting data-- usually a rectangular box, formed of a feeds axis and a speeds axis, which is the recommended cutting zone for that particular insert: the feeds and speeds recommended. The boxes are always at speeds much beyond where HSS can go; none of the speeds are in the slower zone that HSS works well in: from zero up to just before red-hot. If carbide tooling is honed to a sharp edge by the user, and moderate speeds are used (hand cranking an Adept for instance), it should perform as well as HSS does. Why is he using carbide? Carbide costs more. Sharpening carbide is really only done well with fine diamond grit wheels which are not very cheap. Why isn't he using HSS...on his old and slow "arm strong" Adept? I know of retired master machinist who used to give demonstrations on tapping whenever young cadets, soon-to-be officers, were escorted through the arsenal where he worked. He used to keep a plastic squirt bottle at hand for those times filled with mayonnaise: he used it to lubricate the tap as he demonstrated how-to-tap on a drill press. Worked well...and warped their brains too. Maybe butter would work well with carbide...or fresh mutton fat. Art (Houston) ------- NOTE TO FILE: I got an off-group message from Harold Hall in late Oct 2004 explaining why he used carbide tooling on the Adept for this particular job. His explanation follows. [And I would do exactly the same with this material. Thank you for your fine article in MEW.] ------- Date: 31 October 2004 Subject: Shaping One of your correspondants questions why I used carbide tooling in my Model Engineers' Workshop shaper article using a hand operated Adept and suggests that HSS tooling would be the tooling to use. The project used cast iron castings for its main materials and there is no way that I would risk my HSS tools on this material. Even one hard spot encountered would result in a spoilt tool, Carbide is therefore all but essential for roughing cuts on cast iron. After the skin has been removed then, as I think I said in the article, HSS would work well. Harold Hall ------- Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2004 06:28:39 -0000 From: volzmechatronicx~xxyahoo.com Subject: Speeds, Feeds, and DOCs wuz Re: Progress Update - 7" Ammco refurb "J. R. Williams" wrote: > Art; > Max depth of cut 0.500??? Sounds a little heavy for the small shapers. Joe-- A DOC of 0.500 IS too heavy for small shapers at those feeds and speeds. That's tabular data direct from the "Machining Data Handbook" for shapers & planers of ALL sizes. Feed and speed are starting data and the DOC is read as a max. That's why I also discussed metal removal rates and that you can't cut more metal--in cubic inches--than the horspower that you have avalable will allow you too. If you work backwards with the horsepower available at the cutting tool, with the feed, and with the speed, you will arrive at the allowable DOC (depth of cut) for the shaper being used. For a small 1/4 hp shaper that depth of cut will be quite small. Does that make sense? Maybe the table of cutting data should have had another column listing allowable DOC in terms of the horsepower available at the cutting tool. There are such nomographs (alignment charts) in the back of the "Machining Data Handbook" for turning, milling, and drilling operations, but none for shaping/planing. Maybe I'll make one up--or better yet, devise a template for the Alias shareware spreadsheet program downloadable on-line--gotta find an empty back- burner to put it on with all of the other deferred projects. Anyone want to do it? The computer program for the "Machining Data Handbook" automatically, after adjusting the other parameters, will work backwards and provide the proper depth of cut after setting the horsepower available and the machine efficiency. Unfortunately, it doesn't have any shaper/planer specific data (industry doesn't use shapers or planers in the computer age), but data computed for single point tooled lathes, for a wide assortment of HSS, carbide and more exotic cutting tools, when used to turn a wide assortment of various materials and hardnesses, comes fairly close to what shaper data should be...allowing, of course, for the 2/3-1/3 cutting times. (I thought I demonstrated that program to you?) Art ------- Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2004 22:16:03 -0000 From: "joe_sozanski" Subject: Re: shaper tool design John, I took a piece of 1"x1 1/4" solid stock and whittled it down and just clipped the corners off at 45 deg. A learning project experimenting with tools and learning about the shaper. I did cut in the slots for tool bit but now I don't think they'd really be necessary on a small shaper for hobby use. I pick thru the scrap hoppers when I can. I'll see if I can get a couple pics of it and post if that will help. Joe ------- Date: Wed, 15 Dec 2004 16:55:10 -0000 From: "joe_sozanski" Subject: Re: shaper tool design "joe_sozanski" wrote: > > John, I just uploaded 3 pics of my toolholder in metal shapers pix > > under Joe's toolholder. I placed a 6" scale on them for reference. > > Hope this helps some. Joe "Peter Verbree"wrote: > Joe, I did exactly the same thing several years ago when I had my Atlas > shaper. I thought it worked very well. I even made the cutouts for > the toolbit the same way. I believe it is a great shaper beginner > project. You should write it up with some basic drawings and either > send it to HSM or post it on the web. Nice work!! Peter, well I don't have a scanner or any type of drawing program. It's so simple I just whittled it out on the shaper as I went along. You're right it is a pretty good beginner's project. You get to try out quite a few basic things. I also made some tool blocks out of 2" square I salvaged. I just notched them for the tool holders, boring bars etc. I got tired of the lantern tool post on my Atlas lathe sagging at inconvenient times like when a thread is almost finished. May not be as nice as a fancy quick change one but the tools are all set to center height so just switch them or turn them around. That was good practice too squaring them all up and cutting the grooves in. The blocks look like hot rolled, all scaley. I found it came out the best cleaning them up all around then going back with a finish tool. The last 2 I did I got them parallel with in .001-.0015! Learned quite a bit on these 2 jobs. I machine prety big stuff at work and it's usually bolted bown with 7/8 or 3/4 bolts. I run a G&L HSP15 horizontal cnc and occasionally old manual Bullards 46" and 54". Joe ------- Date: Mon, 9 May 2005 18:00:42 +0100 From: Clive Foster Subject: Cutting Curves on A Shaper Folks: The latest issue of the UK magazine Model Engineer has a article written by John Olsen on making a device to cut curved surfaces on a shaper. Author used it to do the curved expansion links on a compound twin launch engine model. Seems to have worked quite well. Idea is a derivation of a special vice used to do similar work on a planer. This vice is illustrated as Figure 1628 in the book Modern machine Shop Practice by Joshua Rose which can be downloaded in digital (PDF) form from Michigan State University at http://digital.lib.msu.edu/collections/index.cfm?TitleID=274 and http://digital.lib.msu.edu/collections/index.cfm?TitleID=367 for volumes 1 and 2 respectively. I've downloaded it myself but have not yet got to Figure 1628. Besides having a heck of a lot of machining info the book is a monument to the engraver's art. The basic principle is pretty straightforward but there is perhaps more than is obvious in getting things to go properly. Much better to follow anothers experience than do the development work all yourself. Clive ------- Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2005 14:20:28 -0400 (GMT-04:00) From: Jim Ash Subject: Shaper diagnostics - round two I ran another test cut on my Atlas 7B Saturday. This time, I ground a fresh tool with a fairly broad radius for a better finish. Two things are happening which I question. The first is the 'wave' like I described last week. The machine is ratcheting on the cut, and advancing on the retraction, so the wave is not from the advancing of the work. I thought I had it right the first time, but I wasn't sure, so I checked this time. If I cycle the machine manually, I see a pause in the stroke when the ram lever gets just a bit past center. If I look inside when this happens, it looks like the stroke adjustment screw (that's part of all that stuff spinning around inside the bull gear) is under tension at the beginning of the stroke and compression at the end of the stroke. The wave seems to happen at the place in the stroke after this force has reversed and enough force is generated to make the screw flop from one side of its lash to the other. I'm guessing the spring in the machine causes it to 'bounce' when the stroke is not smooth at this point. These forces apply to any machine with this geometry, so I guess I don't know why you don't see this wave from any machine instead of just mine. Am I tightening up on the stroke length lock wheel the wrong way? Is there a right way? Sometimes I see dots, like light punch marks, appear on the surface just cut. I was cutting with a stroke of about 4 1/2". At one speed, the dots appear in a band maybe 1/2" in width. I can hear the clapper clapping twice on each stroke, so I'm guessing the clapper is coming down on the work during the return stroke. Should there be a piece of felt or something to absorb the energy from the clap, so the clapper won't do a second clap? Halfway through the piece, I moved the belt to a slower speed, and the descrete band of dots went away, but the dots were more randomly all over the piece, like the clapper was down and bouncing the tool along the work on the return stroke. Is my clapper too loose? Jim Ash ------- Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2005 16:55:33 -0500 From: mikejanfx~xxjuno.com Subject: Re: Shaper diagnostics - round two Jim: Are you actually using a shaper tool holder or a lathe tool holder? Lathe holders may fit your Atlas tool post, but they are not interchangeable . . . especially if you are using a lathe HSS tool holder. Just checking all the variables here. Mike in Iowa. ------- Date: Tue, 09 Aug 2005 03:51:25 -0000 From: "William" Subject: Re: Shaper diagnostics - round two mikejanf... wrote: ...Are you actually using a shaper tool holder or a lathe tool holder? Lathe holders may fit your Atlas tool post, but they are not interchangeable ... __Please correct me here: My understanding is that a shaper tool holder is identical to a lathe tool holder without the upward kick. If this is indeed the case, cannot a shaper tool insert be ground with the extra 15 deg compensated? __My Atlas came with a "Craftsman" tool holder with no angle. I have considered using lathe tool holders that have been straightened so I can get left and right tooling. I think this is what was done with the Craftsman, as it has been welded in the area where the kick would be. Bill Hudson ------- Date: Mon, 08 Aug 2005 22:35:07 -0000 From: "Ken R" Subject: Re: Shaper diagnostics - round two Jim: My .02. It sounds to me like you may have the stroke adjustments just a hair off. A bit tight. I might reset it again. Also allow more space at the ram retraction end to allow the clapper to settle in. FELT in the clapper!! Blasphemy!!!!! Really I think the clapper is ok, seems to be a timing issue. Ken ------- Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2005 23:19:19 -0500 From: mikejanfx~xxjuno.com Subject: Re: Re: Shaper diagnostics - round two Jim and Bill, > __Please correct me here: My understanding is that a shaper tool > holder is identical to a lathe tool holder without the upward kick. > If this is indeed the case, cannot a shaper tool insert be ground with > the extra 15 deg compensated? If the cutting bit is held parallel to the shank you have a lathe carbide tool bit holder . . . and yes you can sneak by . . . sort of. If your bit is held at the 15 degree angle to the shank, you are really skating on thin ice. Any tool holder that places the bit in front of the pivot of the clapper will always have the tendancy to dig into the work. Even traditional shaper tool holders will do this if the tightening nut of the holder is on the back side of the stroke. I learned years ago to flip my shaper tool holder around where the cutting bit is trailing. It gets the bit almost even with the pivot of the clapper. Then if you hit a hard spot, the cutting bit doesn't dig in, it actually pivots away from the piece allowing you to continue cutting. You'll cut the hard spot on your next pass. If all else fails Art Volz shaper holder is a terrific idea (I have one). Cheap to make and work slicker than snot on a door knob! Look it up in the shaper group files or at the Lewis machine tool group. Try it, you'll like it. Ken writes: >>My .02. It sounds to me like you may have the stroke adjustments just a hair off. A bit tight. I might reset it again. Also allow more space at the ram retraction end to allow the clapper to settle in.<< Ken is right on target. General rule of thumb is to make your stroke 3/4" longer than the work. 1/4" beyond the work plus 1/2" in front of the work for a total of 3/4". This gives the clapper a chance to snap down. Logan went the extra step by adding a spring to the top of the clapper off to the side. It made for a positive snap down of the clapper everytime. I've got pictures of mine and the components that make it up if you're interested. Contact me directly though. Mike in Iowa ------- Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2005 07:55:09 -0500 From: mikejanfx~xxjuno.com Subject: Re: Shaper diagnostics - round two 09 Aug 2005 Jim Ash writes: >>This is the point where I'm ignorant about the specifics of shapers. << Jim: this is where a good book on shapers or reading some of the files we have in the shaper group about operating a shaper might really help. I jokingly say that running shapers is more "voodo" than science ... they are an odd, very fun tool! >> The clapper had a lantern toolpost on it when I got it, which doesn't necessarily mean it's right. It sure looks like the ones I've used on a bunch of lathes, unless there are subtle differences I'm not aware of. I don't have any Armstrong-type holders (at least yet) for this machine. << Ah, a little more info helps. We may have been talking about two different things. You were talking about the lantern tool post (which is very similar to a lathe except for the rocker and rocker ring.) I was talking about the actual tool bit holders. Holding a larger toolbit in the lantern tool holder is totally acceptable. There are rectangular tool bits for this purpose as well. Being rectangular they have more strength on the cutting stroke. However, for small 6-8" shapers, the largest square tool bit you can put in the lantern usually works fine. >> What's the significance to the type of tool holder with respect to machine operation? Obviously there are some inherent angles how the tool is held in the holder and the holder in the lantern, but I think I've got that covered. Does the added mass of a tool holder signficantly effect the clapping action of the machine? The actual cuts I'm getting look really good. My chips are smooth and bright, so there's no problem on the cutting stroke (except for the wave problem). My problem with the 'punch' marks seems to be with the tool contacting the work on the return stroke. << A shaper tool holder allows various angles and positions to be cut more easily than a clamped tool bit. You can even cut on the underside of the work if you have the clearance and can't flip the piece. (I've never had to do this however.) Cutting a vertical edge, dovetails, t-slots, splines ... they can all be done on a shaper with the proper holder and tool bit. Mike in Iowa ------- Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 20:51:09 -0700 (PDT) From: James Sterner Subject: Similar Holder I remembered after I sent this out, that for a few years I've had a holder that's very similar to yours. It took a while to find it again, but it's an Armstrong Holder # S-51 and it has a goose neck with an adjustable piece that holds a 1/4" bit and it has a pointed threaded rod that lands in any of three dimples in the adjustable bit holder, to vary the angle of the bit and to take up some tension on it too. Would anyone know if this was designed to be used for a Shaper? The hole is a broached square in the bit holding part of the holder. With this one there would be no way to add a long extension like Art's design. Thanks Again Jim Sterner ------- Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 06:05:46 -0000 From: "Art Volz" Subject: Re: Similar Holder Jim--The gooseneck holder that you describe was not designed for shapers or planers: it was designed for threading on lathes. While Armstrong still makes some of their toolholder, they do not make the gooseneck style anymore (or shaper/planer toolholders either). Most of the oldtimers who used to swear about how good the goosenecks were...aren't swearing about anything anymore...except, maybe, that where they ended up is extremely hot. :-) Art ------- Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 15:32:16 EDT From: n8as1x~xxaol.com Subject: Re: Re: Similar Holder w/ correct amt. of flex (more than on S51) they will allow a wider cut & a higher speed w/out chattering ...i can actually point up a center w/ 3/8 flat bit w/ a shop made gooseneck w/out back gear...makes using form tools a LITTLE more reasonable on light machines...watching how much it flexes makes one wonder abt dimension of finished product...( neat pics of ur slotter ,tnx) best wishes docn8as ------- Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 18:28:22 -0000 From: "Art Volz" Subject: Re: Shape-Rite "B" my new project In Metal_Shapers, viajoaquinx~xxa... wrote: >I just took a peek at the Shape-Rite manual on Don's site. I was >surprised to see a lathe tool holder depicted in the drawing on page 6! Roy-- What's the surprise? The AMMCO manual shows the same. The normal HSS lathe tool holders are not adjustable and they hold the HSS tool bit at an angle which, if used on a shaper, must be compensated for. A lathe tool holder for tungsten tool bits, however, holds the tool bit at 90 degrees to the work just like a shaper tool holder does. Armstrong, in their catalogs, have long stated that these tungsten tool bit holders are useable on shapers...they're just not adjustable. Art ------- Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2005 15:00:39 -0500 From: "S or J" Subject: Re: Shaper Toolholder for 7" AMMCO Ken wrote: >I should have also titled this WTB, does anyone have an extra >toolholder that would fit a 7" AMMCO that you would be >willing to sell? Hi Ken: While you can and likely will find a dedicated shaper toolholder, or make one yourself, the interim solution [and perhaps the only solution you will need for a fair while] could be: (1) hold a tool bit in the lantern with packing as needed; or (2) get an Armstrong-type straight carbide bit holder for a lathe. [NOTE TO FILE: That does not mean you have to use lathe carbide tipped bits in the carbide bit holder! While you can do so, it is generally found that these small shapers work much better with sharp tool-steel cutters. The advantage of the carbide bit holders is they are designed more like a genuine shaper bit holder -- they do not have the large built-in rake (bend upwards) of a standard lathe tool holder.] You can read all about these and other alternatives in the archives here, or in the file "Shaper Bits and Toolholders" on my site in the Metal Shaper Files section. A simple problem, and simple, inexpensive solutions. If you have any questions after that, the good folks in this group will likely advise further. Steve -- in Thunder Bay, Ontario, Canada Machining and Metalworking at Home http://www.janellestudio.com/metal/ ------- Date: Tue, 06 Dec 2005 21:32:23 -0000 From: "Art Volz" Subject: Re: Shaper Toolholder for 7" AMMCO Kenneth-- On EBay, where most of us win ours, a Armstrong/Ace or Atlas adjustable shaper tool holder, to fit the lantern tool post slot of the small 7- inch shapers, sell regularly for $75 to $150. That is today's market price range. American #5's, a copy of which I got much cheaper from Dave Sobel's father's collection, cost anywhere from $25 and up. On the other hand, with a little bit of effort you can make your own-- if you have the skill and desire, and are willing to expend some effort. Use my plans, that have been posted in our files (Links>!Archive....>Files>Metal_Shapers>holder1.jpg) almost since the day that this group was formed. Again, it takes a bit of skill, desire, and effort to research our files...and find my plans. To make it easy for you this time just click onto this URL: http://www.lathe.com/YahooGroups/Files/Metal_Shapers/holder1.jpg . I won't even charge you for using my plans--that I drew--at least not this time. :-) Here's your chance to make that "well done homemade rig"...for next to nothing. Art (I really like eBay! I win a lot of good stuff and on the cheap, but I've learned how to play the game.) ------- Date: Wed, 07 Dec 2005 00:53:49 -0000 From: "Ken R" Subject: Re: Shaper Toolholder for 7" AMMCO Ken wrote: Thanks Steve.....I'm looking for an Armstrong #41. Arthur (Houston) wrote: >Ken--Do you have an unusually large lantern tool post on your AMMCO-7? The normal size Armstrong adjustable shaper tool holder for an AMMCO, a South Bend, or an Atlas seven inch shaper, is the Armstrong #39 which has a shank that is 3/8 x 7/8 x 5-1/2 inches and accepts 1/4-inch square HSS tool bits. The Armstrong #41, on the other hand, is a much larger tool holder with a shank of 3/4 x 1-1/2 x 10 inches and accepts 3/8 x 1/2 inch rectangular tool bits. I suspect that, unless you have a much larger non-OEM replacement lantern tool post on your AMMCO-7 with a slot large enuf to accommodate a #41 tool holder, that, once you do acquire an Armstrong #41, you will either have to machine its shank smaller to fit...or make a much larger tool post to hold it. < >The Armstrong #41 is not just the next size, it is several sizes removed from the smallest size, the #39. The sizes from #39 thru #41 inclusive are: 39, 40, 401, & 41. Pages from the old Armstrong catalog depicting and describing their once made (long ago) shaper tool holders can be found in our archived files that can be accessed via "Links" here. < ------- Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2005 21:59:04 -0600 From: "Mario L Vitale" Subject: Re: Re: Shaper Toolholder for 7" AMMCO > I have been using Horror Freight 1/4" carbide tipped cutters to good > effect so far. Only 'cause my tool grinding skills are yet not up to > par {truth be known, they suck} and I also have a grinder that I can > stop the wire wheel with a gloved hand. Trying to do my best, hence > the frustration. Ken, I can sympathize with your dilemma ..."making do" can make for a lot of frustration. But remember, a lot of old machinists did some pretty damned impressive work with a lot less than we have today. Remember, patience is a virtue (in spite of being told that when I was around five years old, it took me another 50 or so years to really learn it). That 'wimpey" grinder may be a blessing in disguise. Take your time ...don't try to take off too much material at one time ...heat is the enemy! If you haven't seen this already, here is a link to a good 'tutorial' on grinding lathe tools. (http://www.sherline.com/grinding.htm) Hang in there, Mario ------- Date: Thu, 08 Dec 2005 07:38:54 -0000 From: "Art Volz" Subject: Re: Shaper Toolholder for 7" AMMCO > Where does the Armstrong "Ace" line come onto the big picture? Roy--The Ace line of Armstrong tools were the virtually same tools except they were marked "Ace" and had different numbers. They were intended as slightly less expensive tools for the home shop and for schools. The line of Ace tools was never as extensive as the Armstrong industrial line of tools. Art ------- Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2005 10:13:28 EST From: jmartin957x~xxaol.com Subject: Re: Re: Grinding Shaper Bits In a message dated 12/18/05, krobinson44x~xxcox.net writes: > But if the tool doesn't rub, how can the clapper box operate? There > appears to be a definite "Bump" there to "Jump" the clapper box? Ken First, you need to understand what rubbing is. It is not specific to shapers - it applies in exactly the same manner to all cutting tools. It is, quite simply, the grinding of clearance and relief angles to ensure that the only part of the cutting tool that contacts the work is the sharp cutting edge. Every cutting tool has it. Well, almost every one. Some reamers are ground with cylindrical flutes, but the cutting edge on these is the chamfered area at the front which is relieved. Plain milling cutters may be ground without side relief, but these are designed to cut on the circumference, not the sides. Try cutting on the sides and you'll ruin them quickly. They do have radial relief. Woodworking jointer, planer and shaper knives are sometimes jointed after setting, which produces a radial land with no clearance. Once that land gets larger than a very tiny edge, however, the machine will start to bang and cut very poorly. Rubbing on the backstroke is another case. When you use hand tools such as hacksaws and files, you ease up on the backstroke to avoid dulling the teeth. A shaper is one of the very few machine tools that operate with anything other than a continuous cutting action. OK, a planer - but that works the same as a shaper. A power hacksaw relieves the pressure on the blade on the backstroke. A die filer doesn't, but there isn't too much pressure there to start with. Same with a scroll saw. A shaper cutter will rub at the cutting edge on the backstroke for two reasons. One: flex. There is enough flex in even a heavy machine tool so that the cutter will rub slightly on the back stroke. It may even be enough for a second or third cut at the same setting, which is the spring cut often used in threading or boring on the lathe. Two: feed. A shaper feeds on the back stroke, which means that there would be rubbing even if there were no flex. The rubbing is actually at the very cutting edge, and would quickly dull the tool if it were not for the clapper which allows the tool to swing out of the way. Often, as the tool swings, some part other than the cutting edge will come into contact with the work, which adds to tool life. The clapper box doesn't always jump and clap. Sometimes, on a fine cut, you can't even see it move - but you can feel it. John Martin ------- Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2005 23:59:46 -0000 From: "Geoff Kingma" Subject: Tangential Tool Holder in a Shaper Since I acquired my 6" Ammco shaper I have often wondered how well a tangential tool would work. I have one on both my Taig and 918 lathes. They are the Diamond Tool Holder sold by http://www.bay-com.com/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=2 and I have been extremely happy with them. So, today, I tried out the smaller one from the Taig on the shaper. It has a 3/8" square shank and uses a 1/8" square HSS toolbit. The larger one has a 1/4" square toolbit but the shank is 1/2" square, which is too big for the Ammco. I have posted a photo of the setup in "Metal shapers Pix" in the folder "Ammco 6" - Geoff kingma" Results? Well, I'm impressed. First a 4" wide slab of Aluminum - no problem with 0.020" deep cuts with a 0.009" index (3 clicks). Then a 4" wide piece of CRS. Also very good but a little rough. Finally a 4" piece of cast iron. Cuts fine but the finish is so-so. The finish on a 0.005" deep cut and two clicks (0.006") on the indexer was excellent in each case except for the cast iron. It really does need zero back rake. I didn't put any radius on the tip of the toolbit which may have accounted for the lined finish on the initial cuts. I'm sure that the ease of cutting, and finish, would be better with the 1/4" toolholder but I didn't want to machine down the width of the shank at this stage. The big advantage with a Tangential Tool is the ease of sharpening and also putting a radius on the tip. The disadvantage is the cost. I'm not sure I would spring for one just for a shaper. However, they are not too difficult to make (12 and 12 degrees), and I have seen plans on the Web. Has anyone tried this before? Regards, Geoff ------- Date: Mon Feb 20, 2006 4:47 pm From: "Art Volz" Subject: Tangential Tool Holder in a Shaper ATTN: Geoff K.--In Re: Tangential Tool Holder in a Shaper Geoff-- Last Christmas week, when you posted your original message [above] was an extremely busy time for me & my family in Houston. My kids were home from the far reaches of CONUS and we were doing things together...that we only get to do once a year. I obviously either didn't notice, or just rapidly glossed over, your message. Sorry. Yesterday, while looking for your PIC of the VVW adjustable shaper tool holder that you made (got any more PICs ??) which I eventually found and posted at http://www.groups.yahoo.com/group/Lewis_Machine_Tool, I first found your PIC of the use of the Bay-Com "Diamond" tangential tool holder used in your AMMCO shaper as a shaper cutting tool. I hadn't seen that PIC B4 either (at least I can't remember seeing it) and posted it as well at "Lewis". About 6 years ago, I made several tangential tool holders for my QCTP on my Logan/Monkey-Ward 10 x 24. These were made from bent- drilled-tapped square 1/2 inch keystock and were held like tool bits in the QC. Even made a simplex grinder using my drill press and and an adjustable angle drill press vise. Turned well, ground easily. I had, at the time, intended to try it on my Lewis shaper, but, alas, the 1/2-inch square shank of my tangential tool was too big to fit my tool post. Always intended to make a new tool post--from a large diameter bolt to minimize turning & even bought a bolt--never got around to finishing the experiment. Maybe now, energized again by your experiments, I'll force myself to try again. When I made my tangential tool bit holder I was not yet on the internet, so I never (and never did since) research internet sources for other home-brewed tangential tool holders. That I did yesterday and my results, not necessarily complete, are: 1-- http://www.frugalmachinist.com/dpth.html 2-- http://www.gadgetbuilder.com/ToolHolders.html#Tangent 3-- http://homepage.mac.com/bhagenbuch/machine/pages/freeby.html Geoff, thanx for re-arousing my interest...now, if I can only imagineer an adjustable shaper tangential tool holder that can be fabricated similarily to the VVW tool holder...from common, off-the- shelf & inexpensive components...parts purchased and built...on a Sunday afternoon. More stuff to rattle around inside my brain cavity. :-) Art (Houston) ------- Date: Sat, 14 Jan 2006 21:52:45 -0000 From: "Art Volz" Subject: Re: VVW Keyway Cutter? In Metal_Shapers, "Ken R" wrote: > The...VVW Shaper tool holder works great! It solved > that "Bounce, skip a line, cut" problem I was having just using the > lantern toolpost. > Are there instructions/plans somewhere for an internal keyway cutter > adaptation? I was thinking of a modified boring bar, how would you > recommend I secure it into the head of the VVW? Ken Ken-- That's two questions--your total allocation for this month of January...unless Santa left you a special coupon in your stocking. For February you get three questions, even though it is a short month, but only because of St. Valentine's day. ANSWER 1. Go to http://www.groups.yahoo.com/group/Lewis_Machine_Tool . Enter "Files" and open "Shaper Tool Holders". "/metal/holder2.jpg" is a type modification for an Armstrong style adjustable tool holder to adapt it to cutting internal keyways. Note round hole for holding tool bit. Tool bit hole diameter calculation: square bit size multiplied by square-root of 2. Drills drill sloppy holes, so start with smaller drill bit until just rite. Tite is better. ANSWER 2. Go to your friendly ACE Hardware store (John Madden shops there) and buy a 19mm AF (across the flats) hex coupling nut and a 12.5mm threaded bolt to fit it. Make sure thread has sufficient length to be tightened inside of the coupling nut and extend enuf behind the socket so that the rear tightening nut can tighten everything securely. (Pretty tite, rite?) Also, make sure that the unthreaded shaft of the bolt is long enuf when the hex head is cut off for your purposes. Make the tool bit hole end like in "/metal/holder2.jpg" (see ANSWER 1). Don't cut off the bolt's hex head until it has been securely tightened to the coupling nut. After bolt and coupling nut assembly, you may wish to drill a cross hole thru the coupling nut & bolt for a tension pin to preclude loosening--or, before tightening the two, clean with acetone and then, after tightening, lead solder them together from the back end so that solder doesn't run into the exposed threads. A problem with using an off-the-shelf long threaded bolt is that the threads are normally rolled and thus have a greater OD than does the remaining unthreaded shaft. Extending the length of the thread with a die is possible, but resulting thread diameter will be smaller than spec and may be loose: then solder 'em tite. Lead solder (acid core) is more than enuf strong for this application. See ya in February. Art (Houston) ------- Date: Sun, 15 Jan 2006 07:16:06 -0000 From: "Art Volz" Subject: Volz-Vitale-Williams (VVW) & Volz-Vitale-Fendley (VVF) Adjustable Tool Holders. Brad, et al-- NOTE: Several years ago I came up with the idea of fabbing a #39 size adjustable shaper tool using a 19mm 12-point 1/2-inch socket as the indexing head. The shank was made with two pieces of square key stock brazed/welded to this socket head. A 19mm-1.75 coupling nut indexed within the socket head. My first shank was held together with tapped holes and flat head screws. This was the V (Volz) initial version. I sent two "kits" to Mario V. who welded one and brazed the other together--a little bit of over-kill as he brazed the two shank pieces together too. The screws just held them together until they were brazed solid to the head; the shank when tightened in the tool post won't come apart. Mario suggested using just two drilled holes and a pair of tension pins to hold the key stock together = V-V (Volz-Vitale). I sent out "kits" to several other folks none of whom told me that they had ever built the kits. Mike F., however, one of the kit recipients, suggested use of 8-point sockets as then a coupling nut wouldn't be required, just a piece of square key stock that was threaded, holed, etc. V-V-F (Volz-Vitale- Fendley for the 8-point version). Not as fine an indexing capability as a 12-point socket would provide, but that was OK: it's just harder than heck to find 8-point sockets anymore except at flea markets, pawn shops, and eBay. I bought a set of 1/2-inch Craftsman 8-point sockets on eBay, but didn't want to convert just one of the set into a tool holder. Besides the 12-point socket method plus metric rod coupler was cheap and parts were readily available...on a Sunday afternoon. There are some other points: the square tool bit is held in a round hole thru the coupling nut and tightened via a 12.5-1.75 cap screw which pulls the square bit flat and tite against the face of the socket. To set up for brazing the shank to the socket head, a 6-inch length of key stock is tightened in the socket head as if it were a tool bit, and the head (with chrome removed at braze area) is held fixed and aligned parallel to the composite shank via two small C-clamps. Shims between the shank and the aligning keystock creates an automatic tool bit clearance vis-a-vis the shank. Piece of cake. Duck soup. Hear the cries: "BUT...DAMN IT!!!...IT'S NOT A REAL ARMSTRONG #39!!!" Early last fall, Joe W. silver brazed three 12-point kits together for me = Volz-Vitale-Williams (Mike apparently never made his original kit of several years ago or made an 8-point version. Mike??). Of the 3 kits that Joe brazed, I kept one, one I sent to Irby J. for his rat boyz to test, & one I sent to Canyonman Ken. I still haven't drawn anything pretty for scanning and posting...maybe I'll rough out a dimensioned sketch on the back of an envelope sometime this spring and ask Joe or Irby to scan and post it. Maybe. So...that's the straight skinny...and over an hour's worth of composing. Questions are easy to ask; answers take a lot of time. Last year (about August) I sent the following msg to the groupies at Lewis_Machine_Tool: In Lewis_Machine_Toolx~xxyahoogroups.com, "Art Volz" wrote: Soon I hope to be able to post a new drawing of the Volz- Vitale-Fendley "Sunday Afternoon Special" adjsutable shaper tool holder which can be fabbed in about an hour from readily available off-the-shelf & parts-bin parts. For those wanting to get a head start for this #39 size tool holder here is a list of what you need: Parts List: --12 point 19mm hex socket, 1/2-inch drive. Lowe's Kobalt brand #82171 22519 is cheap and works perfectly --hex head cap screw 12-1.75 x 25mm --rod coupling nut 12-1.75 thread with 19mm across the flats (AF) --3/8 x 3/8 x 12 inches keystock --two 1/8 x 1 inch tension pins Additional jig parts for holding when brazing shank to head: --1/4 x 1/4 x 12 inches keystock --two 1/8 inch thick steel washers (spacers) --two 1-inch capacity C-clamps--"Adjustable" brand is the best, are USA made, and are as cheap as the inferior imported junk. Art (Houston) ------- Date: Mon, 06 Mar 2006 01:47:32 -0000 From: "derstine2002" Subject: A new toy, and some questions. I bought an Atlas 7" shaper a 1 ½ years ago and after setting it up, never really used it. I had trouble with the tool bits. A couple of weeks ago I finally spent some time with it and reground some of the tool bits and started making chips. With a broad round nose cutter I could get really smooth cuts. Thanks to the files section I downloaded the Atlas manual and figured out ram adjustments and the like. I figured out how to change the table cross feed speed from really slow to much faster. I rented Rudy Kouhoupt's video on "6 projects for a shaper" this week and learned some more things about operating my shaper. I have a tool holder question. What came with my shaper were three Armstrong tool bit holders. A left, right and straight tool bit holder. Does any body use them on the shaper? Why would you need a left and right when the head can tilt? Rudy mentions that the tool bits should be ground like a lathe tool. With these tool holders, they hold the bits at angle. When grinding them I have to make adjustments so that the cutting edge is cutting instead rubbing below the edge. Obviously I'm not grinding them correctly. I have a quick change tool holder for my lathe and the tool bits are held in a horizontal position. If I grind like I do for the lathe, when I put them in the Armstrong holder the angles are off due to the fact that the Armstrong tool holder, mounts the tool bits on an angle. I may have read this on this site but I'm thinking of making a tool bit holder that would fit in the lantern style holder but have a ¾ inch solid round stock welded to the bottom. I could drill a hole in the round piece to mount the tool bits vertically instead of on an angle like the Armstrong tool bit holders. I also could make it so the tool bit would be under the pivot pin instead of out in front like the regular style. According to Rudy he gets a better finish when the tool bit is below the pivot pin. He made a special clapper box to achieve those results. Any thought on tool bit holder and such would be appreciated. I have a bunch of ¼ inch by 2" or shorter that I'd like to use. Some fellows use 3/8" wide 4 inch long tool bits that fit in the lantern post. I don't have anything quite so large. I'm starting to like the shaper for being so quiet and the nice finishes it puts out. With the right set up can the shaper take a fairly large cut? I'm making a part that need a fair bit of material remove and I can't take a very deep cut; makes me wish for a milling machine. Thanks for listening to me ramble. Jerry Souderton Pa ------- Date: Mon, 06 Mar 2006 07:14:22 -0000 From: "Art Volz" Subject: An old boy, and some answers--Re: A new toy, and some questions. Jerry: > What came with my shaper were three Armstrong tool bit holders. > A left, right and straight tool bit holder. The tool holders that you have are designed for use in LATHE lantern tool posts. If they were marked with a prefix "T", for tungsten carbide, they would properly hold the HSS tool bit straight for shaper use. You could, however, hacksaw the shank off of one and use it when you make your own toolholder. (see more below) > Any thought on tool bit holder and such would be appreciated. For plans on how to easily fabricate your own Armstrong #39 style adjustable shaper tool holder go to: http://www.groups.yahoo.com/group/Lewis_Machine_Tool. Once there go to "Files" and open directory "Shaper Tool Holders". Click on the file "/metal/shaper_tool_holder_1.jpg": make that one. Be happy. The Atlas manual that you downloaded really doesn't have much poop in it. The manual you want is the Army Technical Manual for the South Bend 7-inch shaper which is filled with good poop, albeit all of olive drab hue, or OD Poop. It has an illustrated section on the properly ground tool bits to use: http://lathe.com/YahooGroups/Files/Metal_Shapers/sbarmy7shaper.pdf Make sure that everything on your shaper is tight but not too tight: just right. If anything in the cutting chain of events is loose, it will make the tool bit, no matter how perfectly it was ground, look bad. Art (Houston) ------- Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2006 09:40:31 -0000 From: "Art Volz" Subject: Re: shaper tool holder Armstrong Goose neck Jonas Thomas wrote: > Art, The things for threading?? Huh... I don't suppose knows > of a link on how it's supposed to be used. I happen to own one. JT Jonas--For cutting threads on a lathe with your goose neck threading tool, you align the threading cutter bit with the work in the same manner as with normal lathe tool holders holding threading bits. Old timers thought the springy goose neck gave better finishes--but, in them old time days lathes were a lot looser--like a goose--and springiness may have smoothed out the "goose bumps", or the old timers thought they did. As lathes became more and more precise and rigid, the goose neck tools seemed to have goose stepped into oblivion. Today, Armstrong ( http://www.armstrongtools.com ) only makes a rigid lathe threading tool holder that uses roundish HSS preformed inserts that can be resharpened until you run out of round insert to sharpen. The newest Armstrong catalog that I have hails from 1973. Armstrong, at that time, made 4 different sizes of their goose neck (they didn't call it that) "Spring Threading Tool" (which they did call it): S-50, S-51, S-52, and S-53, with shank widths of 3/8, 1/2, 5/8, and 3/4 inches. Here's some of that catalog's descriptive rhetoric back in them days: "The Armstrong Spring Threading Tool (for square cutters) is designed to combine strength and convenience of adjustment and operation with the resiliency which is considered by many machinists to be helpful in obtaining a smooth finishing cut or thread, especially on tough alloy steel." "Convenient means are also provided for obtaining complete rigidity when desired as, for instance in taking a roughing cut or doing an ordinary job of turning. The cutter can be held at different angles as shown." (The illustration depicts three slight angles of left, straight, and right... like the three normal lathe tool holders.) "High Speed threading cutters for this tool are furnished ground to Sharp V-thread form." "Any other form required may be quickly ground to shape from standard Armstrong High Speed Steel tool bits." But, Jonas, as they say: if it works for you, go for it. I think though, that your shaper time would be be better utilized if instead you used a made-for-shapers Armstrong adjustable shaper tool holder which rigidly holds the tool bit, is adjustable as to head angle, holds the bit at 90 degrees to the work, and a clone copy can be readily fabbed by using my dimensioned drawing in "Files" at http://www.groups.yahoo.com/group/Lewis_Machine_Tool Enjoy! Art (Houston) PS. Make some quick dough on eBay from the gullible: list your goose necker as a "shaper tool holder" and reap the green. Many unscrupulous sellers do...but, that, would be unscrupulous. :-) AV ------- Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2006 14:26:54 EST From: n8as1x~xxaol.com Subject: Re: Re: shaper tool holder Armstrong Goose neck > Old timers thought the springy goose neck gave better finishes-- on early lathes w/out compounds ,thrdng was done "straight in " w/ the crosslide ,the bit cutting on both sides ....the spring allowed for heavier cleaner cuts ....& it does work ....i have a very springy goose neck tool that w/ a 3/8 bit ground flat on end , i can plunge cut w/out chatter in first open speed on a 2 in bar... mu 1895 lathe is w/out factory compound & i use this holder to point up a chucked up center... tool bit can be seen springing down 1/16 in ..what this does for precise diameters, is another story best wishes docn8as ------- NOTE TO FILE: Naturally if you are reading this file with the intent of learning about shaper tools and their cutters, it will also be useful to learn more about single point cutters in the "Cutters, Collets and Arbors" file where single point cutters are used for the lathe. In many instances the same cutter or holder can be used on both lathe AND shaper. ------- shaper tool bits for armstrng 401 [Metal_Shapers] Posted by: "n8as1x~xxaol.com" n8as1x~xxaol.com Date: Sun Jun 11, 2006 9:58 am (PDT) FWIW for those who have armstrong shaper tool hldr for 5/15X 7/16 ....... wholesale too has 5/16 x 1/2 bits for 10 / #6.50 ( .65 EA.FOR THREE OR MORE)...i ground the first one down to 7/16...,finished on surface grndr....checked hardness of holder & went the other route ... alternately filing & driving bit in slot of the head to mark , & holder now takes 5/16 x 1/2 ...necessary to extend the relief for bit on the shank , as the bit is longer than original .....did some serious metal removal w/ 16 in S&M,& bits seem to hold up as well as other china square bits i am using in lathes ..i have no way to compare w/ top grade U S , but i just had 20 more bits arrive Thursday ,totalling 30, so i now have a supply for whats left of my lifetime....IMO ,a worthwhile modification ,took less than 30 min ....several narrowed down hacksaw blades may make it go even faster /// best wishes docn8as PS art is correct( per usual) ...xperimented w/ gooseneck thrdng tool as a shaper tool ( absolutely wont work reversed to get the spring behing clapper pin ( go figure that)....w/ g/neck in normal position , does not hold bit securely enuf for any but lightest cuts ,unless the knurled brace in rear is applied ,at which point ,u no longer have a spring tool, & w/ heavy cuts even brace doesent hold adequately ...shop made 3/8 bit spring holder worked beautifully for this job... -------- Re: shaper tool bits for armstrng 401 Posted by: "Art Volz" volzmechatronicx~xxyahoo.com Date: Sun Jun 11, 2006 10:56 am (PDT) Hi Doc--I picked up several of each of Wholesale Tool's 5 different size rectangular tool bits that they offer several years ago. Since they're ground, they also work well as parallels when setting up work in vices. Cheap enuf...and good enuf for me. I have no idea what type of HSS these chinese tools are supposed to be, but suspect that they are tungsten based rather than molybdenum. To see: http://www.wttool.com --> SEARCH keywords: "ground rectangular tool bits" --> 5 different sizes. Did your Armstrong 401 cry when you trimmed his head...forever? Such savagery! :-) Art (Houston) ------- Re: shaper tool bits for armstrng 401 Posted by: "n8as1x~xxaol.com" n8as1x~xxaol.com Date: Sun Jun 11, 2006 11:38 am (PDT) volzmechatronicx~xxyahoo.com writes: > Did your Armstrong 401 cry when you trimmed his head...forever? > Such savagery! :-) no , but I near did ..which is why i ground down the first first tool bit ...fortunately have a couple more due to $ 50 dollar minimum order... best wishes docn8as ------- Re: shaper tool bits for armstrng 401 Posted by: "Jack Vines" Jack.Vinesx~xxptpprograms.org Date: Sun Jun 11, 2006 2:03 pm (PDT) Hi, Everyone: Am new to the shaper, but was give a fairly good old Atlas 7" on a really nice cast iron stand. Apology in advance if this is really bad science and a Question for those who know good science. The Atlas has what I take to be a standard 5/16" wide X 1 ½" long tool post holder slot. On those operations where the workpiece can be relatively close to the clapper, can a 5/16" x ½" x 4" HSS tool bit like those described below be run directly in the tool post without a separate tool holder? It seems this setup would be hold the tool bit much more rigidly than the long articulated Acme tool holder with the short ¼" square tool bit, since all of the back side of the tool bit would be against the clapper. Is this setup regularly done? If so, are there any special clearance grinding issues to having the cutting edge relatively close to the clapper? If not why is it better to have the cutting edge in a tool holder and extending several inches below the clapper? Thanks for your patience with a noviate. Jv. ------- Re: shaper tool bits for armstrng 401 Posted by: "n8as1x~xxaol.com" n8as1x~xxaol.com Date: Sun Jun 11, 2006 8:34 pm (PDT) Jack.Vinesx~xxptpprograms.org writes: > Is this setup regularly done? ... shaper tools were originally solid forged,back in carbon steel days . as were lathe tools ...w/ the advsnt of hi speed , cost became an issue & holders& tool BITS were the result ...they were DESIGNED so as to maintain same ridgidity....no problem w/ using solid tools where interference is no problem (surfacing) ...on some jobs ,even w/ holders , the bit has to hang out more than i wud want .....FWIW .wholesale tool also has 3/8 X 1/2 for those so inclined, at comparable prices & my atlas will handle 3/8 ( perhaps it has been opened up ... ridgidity is limited by lack of mass of larger components, small dovetails, loose / worn slides , etc. ...wud guess that one gives up very little w/ holder & bit ..but ,that said , i have not done ANY comparison testing & i usually do some before venturing an opinion ..i also wud welcome experienced comments ! .i was posting for larger shapers like my 16 & 20 in. had not considered the 7 in . ..at the available price, stocking up on 3/8 x 1/2 bits appears to be an xcellent idea...caveat .. when u start MAKING stuff w/ shaper ,those pesky interferences manifest themselves....also ,having free hand ground some 3/4 x11/2 (?) bits at one time , i really appreciate grinding 1/4 bits !!! best wishes docn8as ------- Re: shaper tool bits for armstrng 401 Posted by: "rvannatta" robertx~xxvannattabros.com Date: Mon Jun 12, 2006 8:58 am (PDT) Well, I have no clue how you are suppose to make shaper cutters. We bought a shaper, and tranferred what we knew about lathe cutters so we use hi-speed steel cutters in our shaper, out of the same pile of cutters that we use for the lathe. You don't want to use a carbide because of the impact. ------- Re: shaper tool bits for armstrng 401 Posted by: "Art Volz" volzmechatronicx~xxyahoo.com Date: Mon Jun 12, 2006 12:23 pm (PDT) Robert -- For fundamentals of grinding shaper tool bits see: http://lathe.com/YahooGroups/Files/Metal_Shapers/sbarmy7shaper.pdf > You don't want to use a carbide because of the impact. There are grades of carbide that can be used, and have been used, for utilizing carbide cutters on shapers. The real problem, however, is having a shaper with cutting speeds of 300 feet per minute or more. Cincinnati's strokin' smokin' c. 1955 all steel 42-incher with the triangular ram was one such animal. G&L, who had bought out Cincinnati Planer, made high speed carbide capable planers as did Rockford who called theirs a shaper-planer. A article in the September 1955 issue of "The Tool Engineer" tells how to use carbide tooling on high speed shapers and planers to double metal removal rates. Roland Hecker (Chief Designer, Giddings & Lewis Machine Tool Co., Fond du Loc, Wisc.) discussed use of specially designed clamped carbide shear-angle shaper/planer tools. Now, to get a 300-400 FPM shaper that can effectively use carbide tooling. Cincinnati did it with a high speed direct drive screw; Rockford did it with a combo of a double-acting and a single-acting hydraulic cyclinder in their drive circuitry. Cincinnati made two Beasts: Big Beast with a 42-inch stroke and Baby Beast with a short 33-1/2 inch stroke, the latter marketed by Schlenker & Company (Eric R. Bachmann Co., Inc.) in 1956. I know that Big Beast was used in the machine shop at Cincinnati Shaper for a number of years. I have no idea, today, what has become of either Big Beast or Baby Beast. I suspect that both were scrapped long ago. If anyone sees a large 33 or 42-inch shaper, of all steel construction, with a very different looking TRIANGULAR ram, LET ME KNOW SOONEST IF NOT SOONER!!!!! Art (Houston) ------- Re: Tool post question Posted by: "n8as1x~xxaol.com" n8as1x~xxaol.com Date: Tue Jun 13, 2006 12:33 pm (PDT) alainx~xxreptilecanada.com writes: > Also, I cannot get the smooth surface finish I have heard so much > about. Do I need a goose neck tool holder? Al shear tool gives best results at .005 doc or less ..flat point of 1/16 +& some back rake is second & a knife or "dutch nose" (like a wide cutoff tool ,near full bit width & slight back rake , as well as slightly thinner back or the cutting edge,) set as flat as machine will stand is 3rd. shear tool is easiest to grind by starting w/ the EDGE vertical ... now grind a round point bit w/ few degrees clearance, 3-4 in radius on end ...set the bit so leading edge is on rt front for cutting to left ( it then has serious neg. rake & shears across .,cutting from the middle of the radius...bacon grease ,lard oil , old engine oil ( DIRTY ) helps ringed seat for t/holder provides a secure seat & aids in preventing rotation of t/holder machune tool operation --burghardt is available used very reasonable & vol 2 is FULL of shaper work ,bits ,techniques ,uses ...was written originally in early 20's before vert. mills were in common use...after 40 yrs ,i still refer back to BOTH volumes best wishes docn8as ------- NOTE TO FILE: The following message thread is applicable to any shaper brand. Good general information and tips. ------- Lewis shaper problems [Metal_Shapers] Posted by: "Rick Hill" grampasplanesx~xxyahoo.com Date: Mon Jan 1, 2007 12:44 pm ((PST)) Hi all, I'm having problems with my rectangular type ways Lewis. I can't do any slot or cutoff tool type work without the machine (tool?) doing a diving type grab into the work and locking up the machine with the belt spinning. Now I can take a good depth of cut if I'm just surfacing but it digs in when I feed down into the work. Any ideas? Thanks ahead of time. Rick ------- Re: Lewis shaper problems Posted by: "gdstorrick" storrickx~xxconcentric.net Date: Mon Jan 1, 2007 2:14 pm ((PST)) What does the tool bit look like (shape, rake angles, etc.)? Gary ------- Re: Lewis shaper problems Posted by: "Reid Kowallis" kowallrbx~xxmsn.com Date: Mon Jan 1, 2007 6:11 pm ((PST)) Hi Rick: Proper tool geometry is extremely important for that type of work. Are you using a LATHE tool holder with backe rake built in? If so, this could be part of the problem. The tool will dig in ("dive type grab...") as it flexes due to the excessive front clearance required by this type of holder. Be sure to use a real shaper tool holder with no back rake built in. Cheers, Reid Kowallis ------- Re: Lewis shaper problems Posted by: "Rick Hill" grampasplanesx~xxyahoo.com Date: Mon Jan 1, 2007 6:29 pm ((PST)) Gary: The shape is a broad flat tool like a lathe cutoff tool. I tried it all: small clearance angles, large clearance angles, negative rakes, positive rakes. The rake angles were as recommended in shaper books. All I know is that the broader the tool point, the more it has a tendency to dig in while the cutter is fed down into the work. Even a sharp pointed tool will bog the machine down it when gets to a certain depth. Now I can take a roughing of cut of over 1/8" if I start off of the piece and feed horizontally, but if I feed down it bogs the machine. I would like to use this machine for more than a surfacer. I would like to cut grooves, slots, dovetails and such too. Rick ------- Re: Lewis shaper problems Posted by: "jmartin957x~xxaol.com" jmartin957x~xxaol.com Date: Mon Jan 1, 2007 10:08 pm ((PST)) First thing I'd check is relationship of cutting edge to hinge of clapper box. The more the cutting edge is forward of the pivot point, the more it will dig in under cutting pressure. Then, the rigidity of everything, from the tool bit through to the table. Any flex will allow the dig in. Flex in the cutoff blade may allow it to dig sideways in the slot. Make sure the front edge of the tool is perfectly square across, or that will drive it to one side. John Martin ------- Re: Lewis shaper problems Posted by: "John A. Landry" gyropilotx~xxautorotation.net Date: Tue Jan 2, 2007 8:16 am ((PST)) In addition to what John M. said above, I'd also like to add that the tool bit should protrude below the clapper only the *absolute minimum* necessary for the clapper box to clear the work piece below it. Increased protrusion of the tool bit (and tool holder if you're using one) below the clapper will require progressively lighter feed rates. As a natural result, cutting grooves requires a light feed. Also, make sure the clapper box seats fully, easily, and squarely (on its own) into the clapper box. I mention this because if the clapper can move deeper into the clapper box under pressure from the cut, it can have the effect of increasing tool rake and the depth of tool bit cut, which can cause digging in. Can you dig it? :) John L. ------- Parting tool for plunge cuts [Metal_Shapers] Posted by: willcocksx~xxchelstonhouse.freeserve.co.uk Date: Thu Mar 15, 2007 7:13 am ((PDT)) Hi all, I've got a Denford Viceroy 250mm stroke shaper. It struggles to take plunge cuts with a normal parting type tool. I've just got good results using a 1/16" by 1/2" parting tool fitted in a piece of 12mm square black mild steel. I cut a slot in the steel about 1" deep from the end in, using a slitting saw in the mill/drill. I then cut off about 1 1/2" off the parting tool with a Dremel. I silver soldered the piece of parting tool into the slot, and sharpened it on the front edge, no top rake. (Note this parting tool is not tapered from top to bottom, so it fits the slot o/k.) I can now take plunging cuts quite easily, but care is still needed. I advance the tool, take a cut the allow it to cut again before advancing the tool for the next cut. I would be interested to know how others have overcome this problem. Regards, John ------- Re: Parting tool for plunge cuts Posted by: "in2steam" in2steamx~xxwi.rr.com Date: Fri Mar 16, 2007 7:07 am ((PDT)) John if I am understanding you correctly, you took a lathe cutoff tool, SS, to a machined block after cutting it off with a dremel tool? Sounds like a lot of work to make a slotting tool. Why not just grind a piece of HSS, in the form of a slotting/keyway tool with relief. With a parting tool you are not getting the correct angle for plane cutting if I am not mistaken anyway if you used one with a lathe grind. If you use a regular tool with a narrow grind, and side relief (the tip is wider than the base). Then the deeper you get the tool does not run. How much of a plunge cut are you trying to take in: A. one pass, B. total C. how wide (left to right)? Any other info on your setup and stroke etc. chris ------- Re: Parting tool for plunge cuts Posted by: willcocksx~xxchelstonhouse.freeserve.co.uk Date: Fri Mar 16, 2007 9:10 am ((PDT)) Thanks for your comments. It's difficult to describe these jobs without a picture/drawing. I had to machine a slot, with the tool extended about 2 1/2" from the clapper box, due to lack of clearance. I found that a narrow tool 1/16" worked well for this. As you say, a piece of HSS ground to this width would have worked fine, however the piece of parting tool silver-soldered into a length of mild steel was quick to make and worked well. I took cuts of about 6 thou depth with no problem, but wider slotting tools cause lots of chatter/poor finish; is this normal for a 10" shaper? John ------- Re: Parting tool for plunge cuts Posted by: "John A. Landry" gyropilotx~xxautorotation.net Date: Fri Mar 16, 2007 9:27 am ((PDT)) John: If I understand what you were doing, all I can say is I've had a similar experience with my 7" Porter-Cable when cutting a 1/4" wide keyway slot (full width cut) inside an aluminum pulley hub. I had to use *very* light cuts (fine down feed) due to the chatter problems and the tendency of the ground HSS tool bit to dig into the metal. I recall past discussions in this forum suggested this type behavior could be due to wear and imperfect seating (springiness) of the clapper box, and/or flex in the tool holder. It also seems the farther you extend the tool bit out in front of or below the clapper box, the problem just increases. Best regards, John L. ------- Re: Parting tool for plunge cuts Posted by: "raglanlittlejohn" willcocksx~xxchelstonhouse.freeserve.co.uk Date: Fri Mar 16, 2007 12:03 pm ((PDT)) John, I was cutting a slot as you suggest, but in mild steel. I think I'll just use a narrow ground HSS tool, and take light cuts for this type of work. This seems to work well although its a bit slow. I suppose it's equivalent to using a narrow parting tool on a small lathe. Regards John ------- Re: Parting tool for plunge cuts Posted by: "in2steam" in2steamx~xxwi.rr.com Date: Sat Mar 17, 2007 4:28 am ((PDT)) > I took cuts of about 6thou depth with no problem, but wider slotting > tools cause lots of chatter/poor finish, is this normal for a 10" > shaper? John. A lot of this depends on several factors, first is the type of steel (or metal). Shafting steel is not the best to be machining to begin with; it tends to tear before it cuts. Slow and low is the name of the game here, and you will get some chatter, a good shaper operator can "tune" the tooling some. I have never used my atlas (7") for keyways yet; I can only speak about a larger (around 12-15") machine I used once to cut a keyway (.75") in a larger axle (8" diameter) and we moved the shaper to it. It seems to me that tooling was the biggest issue; the rigidity was second; we ended up using a gooseneck, then just straight mount to the clapper with very little room to spare once we go to the bottom. Your tooling should look like an "A" from the front, you should give little rake as not let the tool dig in. Also you should be moving back and forth; if you are down around a 1/16 you are going to have a hell of a time with that. Ideally the tooling should look like this: http://www.neme-s.org/shapers/columns/shaper_column_41.html and pictures here: http://www.neme-s.org/shapers/columns/shaper_column_42.html and some grinder shots here: http://www.neme-s.org/shapers/columns/shaper_column_43.html This is a nice site btw. The chatter is more apparent when you are doing a keyway. I get it when I run a small mill (RF 30) also, but not the same kind as this is a single point cutting action. I am wondering John, did you use a HSS parting tool or Carbide? chris ------- Re: Parting tool for plunge cuts Posted by: willcocksx~xxchelstonhouse.freeserve.co.uk Date: Sun Mar 18, 2007 7:52 am ((PDT)) Chris: Thanks for the links, those are the proper tools to use. I've been working with mild steel, quite free cutting, and I only use a HSS parting tool. I don't have much time to spare in the workshop, so the parting tool piece silver soldered to steel bar was a quick fix job, to finish a lathe saddle stop I'm making. It only took about 3/4 of an hour to make, and did the job. I couldn't use my lathe parting tool as it was not long enough. I'll look out for a good set of shaper tools on ebay etc. I could grind some from HSS blanks, but this takes a while. Regards, John ------- Building Shaper Toolholder [Metal_Shapers] Posted by: "John" jjmoranx~xxCharter.net Date: Sat Dec 1, 2007 4:39 pm ((PST)) I'm building Art Volz' toolholder as described in holder1.jpg from the Files section. It seems like a nice design but, as a newbie, I have a couple questions. 1) What is the purpose of the 1/4" Radius by 1/8" deep depressed section on the top of the shank, next to the round piece the bolt goes through? 2) The plan indicates the round piece is brazed to the shank. Would MIG welding work OK or must it be brazed? TIA, John ------- Re: Building Shaper Toolholder Posted by: "Irby Jones" irbyratx~xxcox.net Date: Sat Dec 1, 2007 6:41 pm ((PST)) That radius was just to make the holder resemble an Armstrong toolholder. As long as you keep the bottom of the slots slightly higher than the shank, so the tools will clear the shank, you're fine. You can weld the round piece in place. Brazing or even silver soldering was easier on the originals. I posted a couple nice photos of a completed toolholder, and some other interesting photos and files, in the "Shaper Tool Holders" folder in our "Files" section. They were Art's compilation from one of his groups. Irby ------- Re: Building Shaper Toolholder Posted by: "Clive Foster" clive_fosterx~xxtalk21.com Date: Sun Dec 2, 2007 3:41 am ((PST)) John, Irby A point to remember when substituting welding for brazing as a jointing method is that welding is primarily an edge joint whilst brazing is a surface joint. Hence, in this case a properly brazed or silver soldered joint will be held by a thin layer of joining material across the whole junction area between the round part and the shank. In contrast a welded joint is held only by the fillet section and the junction area is merely the part where the fillet fuses into the component being joined. It's easily forgotten that a welded joint must be treated as two separate joints when judging its strength as the junction between the fillet and each part constitutes an individual joint. When you first start to weld, this point is fairly forcibly bought home by the frequency in which apparently OK joints turn out to have nearly all the weld metal on one component with only a few chicken scratchings holding it to the other. Usually the difference is of no great concern providing the joint is made in a competent manner however in this case the in-use stress can be considerable and it's wise to think carefully about what is meant by competent manner. The area of the brazed joint is large so the relative weakness of the braze joining material compared to weld metal is more than offset by its far greater extent. Were I to weld this joint, I'd expect to use fillets of around 1/4 inch on all 4 sides to provide plenty of adhesion area. Given the relative shapes a Vee groove is a matter of taste but one up to 1/8 inch could be considered. Home shop MIG welders aren't terribly good at this sort of heavy duty job so arc welding might well be better. The heat input involved will be considerable and the chances of distortion high along with a fair degree of locked in contraction stresses. An oft forgotten benefit of brazing chunky stuff together is that the slow cooling minimises the amount of stress locked into the joint. The flip side being that chunky bits need a lot of heating and a hearth to do it in. Best way to weld it is with one of the DC inverter arc welders (dangerous things these as they work so well as to provide the illusion of competence) starting with a couple or three passes using smallish rod and moderate current to get a firm initial joint all round and finishing off the fillet with a couple of passes using a heavier rod. This will minimise the locked in thermal expansion/contraction stresses, hopefully just a ring in the fillet metal. It's easy to overfeed with a shaper and having a built up tool reveal itself to be not quite strong enough to handle an "optimistic" cut by projecting the bottom half, complete with tool-bit across the workshop is unlikely to be an enjoyable experience with a happy ending. As ever with shapers a bit of thinking in apparently straight forward places make life much safer. HTH. Clive ------- Re: Building Shaper Toolholder Posted by: "Ed Godwin" eng4turnsx~xxyahoo.com Date: Sun Dec 2, 2007 7:02 am ((PST)) Clive, a thorough answer as we've come to expect from you! FWIW, I welded my two toolholders using a AC buzzbox and didn't see any but minimal warpage. The center bolt still fit fine, just had to polish out the dross and the spatter. I modified a couple of Art's dimensions though to allow for arc welding v-grooves and fill/cover passes. So, I designed my version for arc welding, not brazing. Ed in Florida ------- Re: Building Shaper Toolholder Posted by: "J R Williams" jrwillmsx~xxhal-pc.org Date: Sun Dec 2, 2007 7:16 am ((PST)) I made a similar tool holder for my shaper and silver soldered the shank to the end section. I used the ribbon silver solder for mine and also silver soldered one for Art V. Joe W ------- Re: Building Shaper Toolholder Posted by: "Irby Jones" irbyratx~xxcox.net Date: Sun Dec 2, 2007 7:24 am ((PST)) Joe: The pictures I have in the "Shaper Tool Holders" folder are the ones Art had of your toolholder. He sure liked the neat silver soldering job you did! Irby ------- Re: Building Shaper Toolholder Posted by: "Jason J" duecentox~xxcomcast.net Date: Sun Dec 2, 2007 8:31 am ((PST)) Or you could just TIG weld it. Dip transfer MIG should never be used for this kind of joint. It is a High deposition/Low penetration weld, not suitable for such high stress applications. ------- Re: Building Shaper Toolholder Posted by: "ed" holmes_ca_2000x~xxyahoo.com Date: Sun Dec 2, 2007 10:18 am ((PST)) How about silver solder the joint but add a pin or pins slightly loose in both parts and then silver solder, would that give added strength to the joint? Edmund ------- Re: Building Shaper Toolholder Posted by: "J R Williams" jrwillmsx~xxhal-pc.org Date: Sun Dec 2, 2007 10:22 am ((PST)) The pins might help maintain alignment while applying the solder but for my part complicate things. JRW ------- Re: Building Shaper Toolholder Posted by: "John" jjmoranx~xxCharter.net Date: Mon Dec 3, 2007 1:35 pm ((PST)) Thanks for all the responses on building the Volz toolholder. I wanted an excuse to use my shiny new MIG but I guess this toolholder isn't the best choice for a newbie welder. I'll make a good fit on the join and silver solder instead. I probably won't include the 1/4" radius since it isn't functional. John ------- Re: Building Shaper Toolholder Posted by: "J R Williams" jrwillmsx~xxhal-pc.org Date: Mon Dec 3, 2007 4:16 pm ((PST)) John: Silver solder is a very strong method of assembly. Post a couple photos of the finished product. JRW ------- Re: Building Shaper Toolholder Posted by: "gdstorrick" storrickx~xxconcentric.net Date: Mon Dec 3, 2007 6:02 pm ((PST)) I saw it about three years ago, and also liked the design. I didn't want to mess around with welding at the time (rainy weather) so I just made the entire thing out of one block of pre-hardened alloy steel, eliminating the brazed and/or welded connection. Aside from the hole, you can make the entire thing on a shaper - but I cheated and used a vertical mill instead. After making it, I never used it much - I usually just clamp the tool bit in the lantern post, which works for the cuts I tend to do. Usually do the same on my large shaper as well. Gary ------- Re: Building Shaper Toolholder Posted by: "mcgam2000" mcgam2000x~xxyahoo.com Date: Mon Dec 3, 2007 11:43 pm ((PST)) In Metal_Shapers_Pix group, I placed three pictures of the Volz shaper toolholder that I made out of a piece of 1" x3/4" x 6" A572-50. This was scrap from a flame cutting operation that I got at the scrap yard. I made two of these. the one in the picture is the first one. The second one came out much better. You can see them in my folder. McGam2000 ------- Re: Tool Size [Metal_Shapers] Posted by: "Ed Godwin" eng4turnsx~xxyahoo.com Date: Thu Mar 13, 2008 5:11 am ((PDT)) "cuttysark71" wrote: > A quick question for the group, what size tool bits do the smaller > machines like the Atlas or SB 7" machine use? Thanks. Well, I've used everything from 1/4" up to 1/2", depending upon what I was doing - and what I had to make do with. It really doesn't matter much what the size of the cutter blank is, what matters is how you're going to grind the working end. The more oversized the blank in relation to the size of the cutting edge(s), the more grinding you'll have to do. Also, if you're forced by circumstances into a lot of tool overhang, then the bigger the blank the stiffer. For my 7" Porter Cable, I'd say the 3/8" square section blank in the 2" length is probably about the best compromise if I had to settle for only one size. But I typically keep lots of blanks of different sizes lying around for the shaper and the lathes. That reminds me, I need to order some more 1/2" blanks. Ed in Florida ------- Re: Tool Size Posted by: "Joe R" jromasx~xxcolumbus.rr.com Date: Thu Mar 13, 2008 10:01 am ((PDT)) Hi Ed. Your answer begs another question. I take it you don't use a tool holder then right? I sold my Logan shaper years ago to get my lathe bed rescraped and only recently got back into shapers with my 7B. I plan on making the holder that Art Volz designed. I know a holder extending out puts more stress on the clapper and flexes but don't plan on any heavy work for the old girl. Joe R ------- Re: Tool Size Posted by: "Ed Godwin" eng4turnsx~xxyahoo.com Date: Thu Mar 13, 2008 11:43 am ((PDT)) Correct, Joe. I also made Art's tool holder but I only use it for cutting internal keyways. I always try to clamp the cutter directly on the clapper whenever possible. Ed in Florida ------- shear bits [Metal_Shapers] Posted by: "n8as1x~xxaol.com" Date: Sun Sep 7, 2008 8:55 am ((PDT)) "Matthew Tinker" mattinkerx~xxyahoo.com wrote: >I've been looking for and can't find an article on >"plough shear" shaper bits, they give an fine almost polished finish, >maybe somebody else knows where it is or has it. i will send u some j pegs of my shear bits & the results in the next day or so....i have posted over a dozen times concerning shear grinds ...maybe i can find some of them ... best wishes docn8as PS .....they work equally as well when put to the lathe ------- Re: shear bits Posted by: "Michael Edwards" memoto710x~xxyahoo.com Date: Sun Sep 7, 2008 3:45 pm ((PDT)) Perhaps one of these two links is what you are looking for. http://artfulbodger.net/docs/shaper/cutters/index.html http://www.eurospares.com/graphics/Tools/shapers/PIMshaper6.jpg Michael Edwards ------- Re: how do you make a square hole [Metal_Shapers] Posted by: "ncollarx~xxbellsouth.net" Date: Sun Dec 28, 2008 6:21 am ((PST)) Rick Here is the address of several files on shaper cutters. A lot better than any one of us can explain how. And are many other files in the Kay Fisher's Files. Have fun reading, well worth it. http://www.neme-s.org/shapers/shaper_columns.html Column 41 - Shaper Tool Bits - Part 1 of 3 Column 42 - Shaper Tool Bits - Part 2 of 3 Column 43 - Shaper Tool Bits - Part 3 of 3 ------- Hello everyone from italy [Metal_Shapers] Posted by: "balestraio" ascanio7x~xxtiscali.it Date: Mon Dec 7, 2009 3:30 am ((PST)) Hello, i'm from italy, near Naples, and this is my new shaper. http://img121.imageshack.us/i/28853807.jpg/ http://img704.imageshack.us/i/45350404.jpg/ http://www.megavideo.com/?v=3SIS1D11 what about it? ------- Re: Hello everyone from italy Posted by: "viajoaquinx~xxaol.com" logan_1400 Date: Tue Dec 8, 2009 9:53 am ((PST)) >> That's a really cool shaper. What more do you know about it? Is that something you do, or is this a draw shaper? What's the maximum stroke length? Thanks for sharing! GsT << > Thanks! Indeed i don't know anything else about it, so i hope you know this model. I have bought it for 300 euros; then i have disassembled all, cleaned old grease, varnished and reassembled. No trace of name or builder, no writing. The photos are almost dark, i know, tomorrow i will shoot some others. < >> The video looks like you have a properly ground finishing tool, but cutting on the draw (return) stroke << > no, It cuts in the forward stroke, as usual. Sometimes the tool draws back the chip, so it seems to be cutting on the draw stroke. The tool i use in the video is this: http://img692.imageshack.us/i/shearingtool.jpg/ What do you think about it for finishing? Can i use anything better? < Your large radius finishing tool appears to work very well although it is somewhat of a novel and unusual design being ground across a corner. Did you create it yourself or did you find it in some literature? BakoRoy ------- Re: Hello everyone from italy Posted by: "gst338lm" gst338lmx~xxyahoo.com Date: Tue Dec 8, 2009 10:01 am ((PST)) > The tool i use in the video is this. > http://img692.imageshack.us/i/shearingtool.jpg/ > What do you think about it for finishing? Can i use anything better? That's as good as it gets for finishing steel. Just be sure not to put too much [curvature] on the bottom. You should be getting an excellent surface from it. GsT ------- Re: Hello everyone from italy Posted by: "balestraio" ascanio7x~xxtiscali.it Date: Tue Dec 8, 2009 10:56 am ((PST)) Thanks. Maybe it has too much [curvature]. I will decrease the [curvature] until i have a [more flat] finish. > Did you create it yourself or did you find it in some literature? I have found it in this sites: http://www.neme-s.org/shapers/columns/shaper_column_43.html http://artfulbodger.net/docs/shaper/cutters/index.html ------- Re: Hello everyone from italy Posted by: "gst338lm" gst338lmx~xxyahoo.com Date: Thu Dec 10, 2009 6:38 am ((PST)) You'll also find it in Karl Moltrecht's excellent books. Machine Shop Practice. http://www.amazon.com/Machine-shop-Practice-Vol-1/dp/0831111267 ------- Re: Hello everyone from italy Posted by: "doc" n8as1x~xxaol.com docn8as Date: Tue Dec 8, 2009 6:26 pm ((PST)) > What do you think about it for finishing? Can i use anything better? I have not found a tool grind that will finish as well as the shear bit, never mind better...... i use it under .005 cut. the drawing looks like the angle is a 45 (maybe I read it wrong, but on steel, I use an angle closer the "moltrecht" drawing, abt 25 deg face to the forward movement.. put a dab of bacon grease, lard, or lard oil on the cut. when all is right, needs no further finishing for most work. A three to four inch radius works best for me. I wud think that the more surface you can shear w/out chatter, the smoother the finish ????????.. depends on balance between angle & radius ..... seem to remember that those times when the finish didn't satisfy me, the remedy was more radius....at any rate, it is not uncommon to need a correction in geometry for the "best" finish. when diminsions are critical, I will take a trial finish cut early to check my shear grind .. then take the first finish cut followed by the .005 thou or less shear cut. The shear bit grind is in "Machine Tool Operation" by Burghardt Vol. 2 1923. as a forged planer bit ... pretty sure it was around before turn of century. Best wishes Docn8as ------- [Metal_Shapers] New Atlas 7B shaper owner needs drawings of tool post and holders Posted by: "Robert M" atwatterkentx~xxhotmail.com Date: Sat Jan 2, 2010 7:56 pm ((PST)) I bought an Atlas 7B shaper, serial #009665 yesterday at auction with an original vise but missing the tool post, tool holders, crank handle and cast iron base. I can machine a tool post and holders if I can get dimensioned drawings or would purchase any or all of these items if available. Thank you, Bob M. ------- Re: New Atlas 7B shaper owner needs drawings of tool post and holder Posted by: "Andy FitzGibbon" wade8ax~xxmeer.net Date: Sun Jan 3, 2010 5:43 am ((PST)) Holders aren't necessary for most jobs on a shaper this small. Just use a 1/2" tool steel blank (or whatever the slot in the toolpost is on an Atlas- it's 1/2" on an Ammco). Andy ------- Cutter Geometry for Internal Cutting. [Metal_Shapers] Posted by: "cchuckfm" friscokid911x~xxmsn.com Date: Mon Jan 18, 2010 4:25 pm ((PST)) I am trying to cut an internal rectangle into a block of pre-hard 4140 steel. Can someone offer advise on cutter geometry? My tool holder is made from 1/2" O-1 steel, holding a 1/4" square bit. So far the bit is either skating over the steel, or digging in and chipping the tooth on the bit. Any ideas?? ------- Re: Cutter Geometry for Internal Cutting. Posted by: "Alan R. Lapp" alanlappx~xxlevelfive.com Date: Mon Jan 18, 2010 5:01 pm ((PST)) Yes, HSS won't cut hardened 4140. Try a brazed carbide tool. You may need to rig up a tool lifter to keep the carbide from chipping on the return stroke. Something as simple as a little strip of flexible plastic will do. Even then, it will see an impact when the tool first comes into contact with the work. Don't get C6 tools, try C2 if you can get them; they'll deal with the impact better. I'd also run it slow and take modest cuts. a ------- Cool link for shaper toolholders. [Metal_Shapers] Posted by: "Bob Wright" aametalmasterx~xxyahoo.com Date: Mon Jan 25, 2010 8:12 am ((PST)) http://www.kinzers.com/don/MachineTools/shaper_toolholder/ Bob ------- Re: Serial Number [Metal_Shapers] Posted by: "Bob Wright" aametalmasterx~xxyahoo.com Date: Sun May 2, 2010 12:44 pm ((PDT)) "Andy FitzGibbon" wrote: > For a shaper as small as the AMMCo, a tool bit holder is usually not necessary. Just use a chunk of appropriately-sized tool steel directly in the tool post. Andy < I have found also not to use the toolholders. I just use a 3/8" toolbit and thick spacer in my SB 7". I can take a better cut with the beefier bit. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Metal_Shapers/photos/album/1901274346/pic /2031716438/view?picmode=&mode=tn&order=ordinal&start=1&count=20&dir=asc Bob -------- NOTE TO FILE: The following posting from Rick Sparber is equally useful for metal lathes and metal shapers. While on his site, check out his other very extensive how-to machining articles. Each article was assembled and refined with lots of input from other folks in these groups. Good stuff. ------- new article: A Tiny Shear Grind Bit [Metal_Shapers] Posted by: "RG Sparber" rgsparberx~xxaol.com Date: Sun Nov 20, 2011 5:06 am ((PST)) This "Shear Grind Bit" was apparently invented by Henry D. Burghart. It is a shaper and lathe cutter which I have ground from High Speed Steel and produces an excellent finish. The cutter presented here is 0.075" wide yet is sturdy. If you are interested, please see http://rick.sparber.org/sgb.pdf Your comments and questions are always welcome. All of us are smarter than any one of us. Rick ------- Re: new article: A Tiny Shear Grind Bit Posted by: "Doc" n8as1x~xxaol.com docn8as Date: Sun Nov 20, 2011 2:47 pm ((PST)) hi Rick This “Shear Grind Bit” was apparently invented by Henry D. Burghart ??? not quite ....maybe first widely published, since so many copies were sold BUT advanced machine work ---smith (my 1925 copy) has original copywrite date of 1910 which predates the earliest 1921 burghardt date PLUS the tool labeled "shear" is a twisted forged tool (in the planer section)...wud predate general use of tool bits..i haven't checked my "rose" book from 40 yrs earlier, but wud not be surprised to see it there also ..the reason it is near unknown today is cause industrially, a piece goes right to the grinder for finishing, & 100yrs ago 2-3 thou was left for filing & emery. (which in some measure affected truth) ...when a finished true surface was desired (rare) a shear grind bit was used....in HSM use, we near always want a fine finished surface w/out grinding. hence its value. re advanced machine work ....expensive & worth every nickel ...my original has IIRC around 1400 + pages ..lindsey made copies for $30t....for those who don't know, near EVERY proceedure you will ever attempt is in there ...in lesson form for the unknowledgeable ....A,B,C,D, ......better yet the methods & "dodges" are more applicable for HSM than current texts viz, don't have a hydraulic press? get a heavy hammer.......mohltrect has good info & some techniques missing form 75 yr old texts, BUT the pics of machines & the proceedures are geared for the student entering the industrial complex TODAY, NOT the guy stumbling along in his garage trying to figure out how to get it done w/ what he has....the beginning & intermediate, at least, HSM, is back in the 20's & 30's w/ same equipment & methods (scrounging, scrap diving .....) my indispensible library contains machine tool operation -burghardt vol 1& 2, ..advanced machine work - smith, audels toolmakers handy book, craftsman how to run a lathe (my first two texts), & 1920's edition american machinist handbook. (easier & quicker to find what i need than my 26th edition of machinerys handbook ... $50 that i wud like to have back).........many other ancillary texts of value, for general knowledge, but the first two above are the real "meat" & are still frequently referred to in another life, a gunsmith guru told me that i shud have a book for every gun i accumulated..i think more so for machine tools ..... FWIW ..one chapter af advanced machine work is titled TOOL MAKING ... & it is VALUABLE if one wants to do so ....gages, reamers, taps, dies, drills, counter bores, etc ..again very thoro. FWIW #2 ...i have a lathe tool holder for 9/32 square tool bits, dated 1866...Stanly & someone else......i had previously thot that holders & bits appeared w/ high speed tools around 1900 due to the high cost for proprietary high speed steel ......any info abt this holder wud be gratefully accepted. best wishes docn8as ------- Re: new article: A Tiny Shear Grind Bit Posted by: "RG Sparber" rgsparberx~xxaol.com Date: Sun Nov 20, 2011 4:11 pm ((PST)) Doc: Thanks for the “world tour” of great books. My friend Neil who is both a machinist and woodworker told me that the shear cutter is common in woodworking. So it is likely that it was invented way before metal working became popular. I’ve updated the article to reflect this new bit of history plus mentioned that using round HSS makes it easier to adjust the attack angle. Rick ------- Re: new article: A Tiny Shear Grind Bit Posted by: "Matthew Tinker" mattinkerx~xxyahoo.com Date: Sun Nov 20, 2011 4:57 pm ((PST)) Rick and Doc, having seen the shaper and lathe application, I plan to try it on a fly cutter if only I can get away from work on earning my living for a while! Single point tooling rocks! Regards, Matthew Matthew TINKER CNC conversion 1944 Colchester Lathe build-up log ------- goodeneck slotter for atlas [Metal_Shapers] Posted by: "Doc" n8as1x~xxaol.com docn8as Date: Mon Jan 23, 2012 3:18 pm ((PST)) preliminary results form atlas shaper tool patterned after Leonardo's design. ground a 1/4 in bit flat point w/ clearance front & sides AND BACK CLEARANCE from cutting edge to the rear ..also back rake of abt 5deg... bit ended up .240 .....slots were cut w/ depths of cut of 5-10 thou .... this is contrasted to cuts of .125 & doc of 2-3 thou w/a solid tool holder ... at 10 thou doc, i had to tighten the belts & cross marks in bottom of slot were more eivident from the flex ...no real chatter felt, but it required abt 7-8 passes at no more depth to turn the bottom SMOOTH. at 5 to 7 thou cuts, abt 3-4 pases w/ no more depth & the bottom was smooth ...sides were clean w/out xtra passes......i did not reduce the doc as maybe in threading, so most probably the flex wud have worked out if i did... the difference from a solid tool holder was enormous...it was slotting almost lke my 16 in 4500# shaper ... i expected much the same since Leonardo was cutting .315 wide slots w/ a 14 in lighter type shaper... FWIW .....my atlas toolpost can handle shanks of one in X 7/16....so i started w/ 1/2 & 2 X 5 1018. scribed a center line down the length, & center punched on that line 11/2 in up from bottom, put it in a 4 jaw & bored a one inch hole ....then horizontal bandsawed down the previous marked midline to the one in hole .......then made a saw cut 1.35 inches from the bottom, into the one inch hole.....i then thinned down the remaining shank to .425...it now went in the toolpost w/ the yet to be bit slot to the rear. THIS is IMPORTANT ...take a scale & sight down 90 deg. from the center of the clapper taper pin diameter & mark the holder ...this will be the most FORWARD position of the bit, so layout the slot behind this point ...this allows the flex pull AWAY from the work....(not bounce along it) ......i used a pair of #8 allen heads for grubscrews, cause i had 1/2 a box ...#10's wud be better.....i made the slot depth, so the bit was centered in the 1/2 in width to this point ...unlike leonardo's design, i put the screws in from the rear. if any one wants a video of leonardo using this tool, i think i can still post it for you. i will play w/ this some more after i finish the stdy rest for 1890 Barnes 4 1/2....i am thinking that w/ this tool, i can take 150 thou doc, maybe more at 10 thou feed, rather than the 100 thou max at 10 thou feed that i normally use for max roughing ...oh yeah, i snugged the gibscrews so that it took a little effort to crank down. best wishes docn8as ------- goodeneck for atlas.results Posted by: "Doc" n8as1x~xxaol.com docn8as Date: Wed Feb 1, 2012 10:25 pm ((PST)) had some time last nite to put a roughing bit in my redition of leonardo's g/neck sllotter tool .& take some cuts w/ the atlas crftsmn 7B shaper. the bit had a point of 1/32 + radius...& a lead angle of abt 20deg, rather than a knife edge bit, w/ cutting edge perpendicular to work, circa 15 + side rake, no back rake & maybe 3 deg front clearance, 5-6 deg side clearance. cuts of .150 doc & .175 were smooth for a rough cut, & easy ....took a max cut of .207 & the machine handled it, w/ very slight chatter MARKS, no chatter felt ....machine was working & base was walking a tad (it is not bolted down)....this contrasts w/ a solid tool holder & my normal max roughing cut of .100 ....all cuts were at 5 thou feed .....so twice the doc roughing cut is possible w/ the g/neck tool IF DESIRED. this puts the cuts in the range of a 12in shaper using a rigid holder. i dont know why a 20 deg lead angle allows a deeper doc than a perpendicular cutting edge since more metal is being removed w/ that beveled cut, but tests well over a hundred + years ago proved out the fact & forged diamond pointed tools were most efficient ...when bits were used they kept the same lead angle ...& in my experience, they are correct .... i just dont know why ....does not seem to make sense that a geometry that cuts MORE metal allows a deeper doc ????? maybe a mech eng will chime in & educate me. not sure whether the flexible holder or the bit behind the clapper fulcrum allowing swing away, is the definitive factor...probably both ......early goosenck forged tools were SOLID & bent & curled in back of the fulcrum. walter mueller built a dogleg offset tool that was solid & back of the fulcrum for his 16 in shaper & that looked to be VERY solid, & "Redi Tool co" made a drop head solid holder that i have that only gets part way to the fulcrum ... i dont think much of it, have not used the other two. a bonus w/ the g/neck is the line of light chatter mark at the start of each ram movement, which sometime appear, is absent. the g/neck tool was at one time routinely used w/ a lite cut, coarse feed & a full width flat point for finishing cast iron..... i cant find a negative for its use XCEPT maybe for a finish cut, if no scraping or grinding will be done & one wants the flattest surface possible. but i always use a shear grind bit when i want a reflective finish .....have not done any measurements to see if the flexing of the g/neck causes any noticeable variation in the final finish ... at any rate, i cant see it ... best wishes docn8as ------- Parting tool holder [Metal_Shapers] Posted by: "alan lapp" alanbataarx~xxyahoo.com Date: Wed Feb 8, 2012 10:21 pm ((PST)) Well, I have to admit defeat on the parting tool holder. I think the design was good, and the machining was good (I was quite pleased with the finish I was getting from the Rhodes), but my choice of materials was poor. I used a piece of structural plate, and it is a mild steel. It wasn't springy enough and took a permanent deformation when it flexed as intended during a heavy cut. I will say that the design works quite well - up until it deformed. On the lowest of 3 speeds, with a 4" cut in steel, the parting tool and holder were producing wonderful tightly-rolled chips, just like on a lathe when you get the speeds and feeds right. I may straighten it out and stuff some leather in the split as Doc recommended, and see if it survives better. If I'm feeling ambitious, I may buy a hunk of D2 and see if I can use a friend's heat treat oven, the tool holder is probably too big to properly treat with a torch. (An oven is on the wish list, I keep trolling Craig's List for one.) a ------- Re: Parting tool holder Posted by: "Doc" n8as1x~xxaol.com docn8as Date: Wed Feb 8, 2012 11:00 pm ((PST)) sorry to hear abt the set several thots ...if you have weld capabilities, you can weld up part of the slot, making it less deep (or thicker.....you can control the flex w/ welding a hanger & screw, bearing on a stud across the flex. not sure why it took a set ...one of mine has been hardened on the shank & to just the middle of the gooseneck ..i have watched it flex 1/16 + w/no set. fwiw ...0-1 is 1/2 the price of D2 (you can anneal/retreat it way easier) & oxy/acetylene wud be enuf heat for the gooseneck & part of the shank that the toolpost buggers maybe all,,,, i wud draw it at a blue (spring) ...your wife's oven wud come close ....550 deg is a tad less than desired, but maybe leaving it in oven for 2-3 hrs wud do it rather than one ...or just heat it back of the gooseneck till you get a blue & dunk it ...truth is W-1 in brine would work, although 0-1 is more forgiving (less tendency to crack/warp ....w/ the gooseneck, it is near mandatory to quench VERTICAL .....it will want to warp there. i wud straighten it & thicken the neck ..the regular armstrong tools are casehardened ....have not checked the gooseneck, but i dont think they wud forge tool steel ...too hard on dies...need to spark it on the grinder & see ....cud be wrong. wud recommend leonardos tool ....it has doubled the feed & near doubled the width of cut (..240) on a slot & doubled the doc on a surfacing cut w/ a 1/4 in bit (.207). jeff pfeifer loaded my ugly sketch on the board if you want to see it ... i used circa 1018 cold rolled...it takes a 1/4 in bit ...so far it has not taken a set, but the toolpost is leaving its mark on the shank. hope some of this helps best wishes doc ------- NOTE TO FILE: The above conversation continued; see Yahoo's Metal_Shapers if you want to read more in this particular thread. ------- Re: Williams Extension Shaper Tool TH-46....Followup [Metal_Shapers] Posted by: "GJR" gjrepeshx~xxyahoo.com Date: Fri Mar 23, 2012 5:45 am ((PDT)) "GJR" wrote: > I need to find someone who has a complete Williams Extension Shaper Tool, Number TH-46. If you would be willing to take some pictures and provide dimensions for the bar that holds the tool bit I would greatly appreciate it. < Does anyone have a Williams tool catalog that shows this toolholder? If so, could you scan the page for me? Appreciate any help in my quest. Gary R. ------- Re: Williams Extension Shaper Tool TH-46....Followup Posted by: "Larry Fahnoe" fahnoex~xxFahnoeTech.com Date: Fri Mar 23, 2012 7:45 am ((PDT)) Hi Gary, I'm not familiar with that part number, but here is a PDF showing Williams and Armstrong tools. Don't recall where I got it from, but it has been helpful to me in the identification of some common shaper tools in the past. Larry Larry Fahnoe, Fahnoe Technology Consulting 952/925-0744 Minneapolis, Minnesota www.FahnoeTech.com http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Metal_Shapers/attachments/folder/282174458 /item/list shaper tools.pdf ------- [Metal_Shapers] From: Jeffrey Pfeifer To: Doc R M Sack Sent: Fri, Dec 28, 2012 5:20 pm Subject: Re: Tool holder/ now Leonardo style flex holder Hi Doc! Yes, I uploaded the drawings for both of your Leonardo tool holders... They are under the Metal_Shapers/files/Shaper Tool Holders folder: http://finance.groups.yahoo.com/group/Metal_Shapers/files/Shaper%20To ol%20Holders/ Cheers! Jeff Pfeifer ------- Re: Tool holder/ now Leonardo style flex holder Posted by: "Doc" n8as1x~xxaol.com docn8as Date: Fri Dec 28, 2012 9:20 pm ((PST)) Jeff ...the files address works & that shud be enuf. karl gross emailed me last week ....made one for his atlas7B,,, not tested yet ,,, the difference is so striking m, i hope others will also. i will send you in the next week or two some sketches of turrets for the shaper ...they replace the tool post ...pretty simple & easy to make... handy for squaring up & surfacing..... can use a rt & left tool so you don't have to crank back the table ...shapers work best w/ side rake not back rake, so & while you can use just back rake, dig ins can happen & less doc [depth of cut] have to be used ...heavier cuts w/ side rake. tnx for quick reply .. best wishes doc ------- Re: Tool holder/ now Leonardo style flex holder Posted by: "alan lapp" alanbataarx~xxyahoo.com Date: Sat Dec 29, 2012 11:21 am ((PST)) "...heavier cuts w/ side rake ....." During my experiments with cutter shape, I've found this to be very true as well. One very successful roughing tool has been a very large radius (on a 1/4" square tool, a ~1/2" radius) on the cutting edge -- the radius should be tangent from the vertical cutting edge to the bottom. This is ground with some front relief, maybe 5*. Then the top gets about 15* of rake in order to make the vertical cutting edge ~75*. On my 7" Rhodes, in steel, this will take a 1/16" DOC with a pretty aggressive feed -- 4 or 5 ratchet clicks, sorry, I don't know what that is in decimal inches. No digging in, and very little chatter. It does require all the gibs to be quite tight, however. a ------- Re: Tool holder/ now Leonardo style flex holder Posted by: "Steve Talbot" steve.talbot2-jodelx~xxtiscali.co.uk Date: Sun Dec 30, 2012 1:03 pm ((PST)) Alan I think this is the 'Shearing' tool bit that was discussed a while ago with a lot of input from 'Doc'. I have been trying to find the links in the archive but have had no luck yet, so I would be grateful if someone could point me in the right direction. Regards, Steve T ------- Re: Tool holder/ now Leonardo style flex holder Posted by: "alan lapp" alanbataarx~xxyahoo.com Date: Mon Dec 31, 2012 9:54 am ((PST)) Not quite the shearing tool - that has the radius on the bottom, and a lot of rake. That tool is very good for finishing and leaves an extremely nice finish. This roughing tool has the radius on the side, and not as much rake. a ------- Fwd: [Metal_Shapers] Re: Tool holder/ now Leonardo style flex hold Posted by: "abcmg68" alcostichx~xxrpa.net Date: Sun Dec 30, 2012 10:25 am ((PST)) Jeff and Doc, Thanks, guys. I found the file. Can't wait to make one. Alan ------- Re: Tool holder/ now Leonardo style flex holder Posted by: "Doc" n8as1x~xxaol.com docn8as Date: Sun Dec 30, 2012 9:27 pm ((PST)) http://www.neme-s.org/shapers/columns/shaper_column_43.html one source.....there are better ones around essentially a bit ground w/ a 3-4 in RADIUS on the end (very gentile curve) w/ front & side clearance & small back rake ..it is applied at about a 65 deg angle, the right edge leading & in front when cutting to the left (this is standing in front of the machine)..applied w a .003 doc....or less ....when grinding it, you have to hold the bit w/ the corners slightly "off vertical" to get the angle when mounted in the tool holder.....you cannot hold the square bit w/ the flat being horizontal .....the bit shearing across at an angle clears out the feed marks from previous cuts ..if previous cuts were rough, you may have to take a couple finish cuts first cause the three thou d.o.c. may not be sufficient to clear the roughness. best wishes doc. ------- Re: Tool holder/ now Leonardo style flex holder Posted by: "Steve Talbot" steve.talbot2-jodelx~xxtiscali.co.uk Date: Mon Dec 31, 2012 4:48 am ((PST)) Many thanks for that information Doc, I will give it a go. Happy shaping in 2013. Regards, Steve T ------- tool holder [Metal_Shapers] Posted by: "guycadx~xxnetzero.net" Date: Sun Jan 6, 2013 2:53 pm ((PST)) This afternoon I was hosting a model engineering club meeting at my place. A club member brought a "lathe" tool holder that he didn't need anymore, a Walton American 5 holder. Looking at it, I realised that it was probably designed for shaper operations. The more interesting feature is that it will handle 3/16, 1/4 and 5/16" tool bits. The jaws for holding the tool bit are self adjusting to a new tool bit size just by tightening the nut. Tool bit indexes every 45 degrees. A previous owner made an additional indexing groove. It is the first time I ever saw such a tool holder. Very nice and original design. The tool bit is offset from the center of the centre bolt. I will try to post a picture later. Guy Cadrin ------- turret t/post of shaper [Metal_Shapers] Posted by: "Doc" n8as1x~xxaol.com docn8as Date: Mon Jan 7, 2013 8:37 pm ((PST)) jeff pfeifer graciously posted for me a rough sketch of my triangular turret tool holder which replaces the lantern tool post in the clapper of my atlas 7B.....an equilateral triangle w/ a centered hole where it bolts to a threaded bar w/ a lip which goes thru the clapper & bears on the groove in the rear of the clapper . it is posted in files under tool holders http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Metal_Shapers/files/Shaper%20Tool%20Hol ders/DocSack_TurretTool.pdf by using heavy side rake only (more efficient & less "dig in' than back rake) you can take a cut & at the end of the cut instead of cranking the table all the way back, simply rotate the turret to the left hand bit & come back. bits ground as shown also are used for down cutting, right & left, & were used for cutting 85 deg vees for 2 different antique lathes. the shovel nose bit is used for shouldering r/l ... & placed as flat as one can w/out chatter for the SECOND finish cut of 3 thou or less, gives a decent finish ...... exceeded only by the shear grind...(talking 1018 steel here)... the shovel nose is also efficient for roughing down cutting, when used at circa 45 deg angle ...the turret can be made heavier & larger for 5/16 or 3/8 bits. this triangular turret takes the place for many functions of the multi position traditional shaper tool holder which has become VERY pricy. FWIW ...the #40 armstrong is ususally MUCH cheaper than #39, &, when the shank is thinned, functions very well (i have one)....takes 1/4 in bits ...may also need to take a lite cut on head to take square bits as well as the rectangular ones. i also have a 4 sided turret, useful for surfacing, but has interference from corners for other functions. pretty simple to make, hope this is of some value. best wishes doc ------- Re: turret t/post of shaper Posted by: "chrisw" in2steamx~xxwi.rr.com Date: Tue Jan 8, 2013 11:58 am ((PST)) Doc how well does this work when you have have the ram retract behind the way wipers etc on longer strokes? It would be nice if it is pinned, I do a lot of cast iron surfacing work so I go from roughing to flat bits a lot. I mainly just use one or two bits ground on both ends which I mount directly in the ram lantern which gives 360 rotation, the tool holders are only for the special hard to reach areas. I have a ground collar that is used to space out the bit. The only problem is every time I spin them around I have to line the bit back up which takes time and risks a gouge if I set the depth wrong. That would be a nice solution loosen a nut and pull a ring and pin, rotate, tighten. Best Regards, Chris ------- Re: turret t/post of shaper Posted by: "Doc" n8as1x~xxaol.com docn8as Date: Tue Jan 8, 2013 3:18 pm ((PST)) the ram on my Atlas 7 A does not retract enuf. the head stands proud of the wipers. it appears that even if it did retract, it wud clear.....my 20 inch mitts merril & 16 inch HD smith mills WILL retract past the wipers, but w. rapid traverse, i haven't made turrets. do not understand pinning ...pinning only allows one presentation ... just loosen the bolt, rotate & tighten again where you will ...just may need an xtra dedicated wrench. the ONLY way i am sure of the doc is to note what i need on the dial, & go beyond what i need & BACK up to the desired number, then LOCK the slide ...now all slack is out ...if just backed up & not locked, it WILL migrate. best wishes doc ------- NOTE TO FILE: The following thread started with a metal shaper problem and that conversation was placed in the "Metal Shaper Repair General" text file on this site. Then the conversation changed to a discussion of metal shaper bit rake and so that part of the thread was moved here. [Metal_Shapers] [Discussion changed midstream to rake angles for metal shaper bits.] Re: South bend 7" tool height lock not working Posted by: "Rexarino" rexarinox~xxgmail.com Date: Wed Jan 9, 2013 4:07 pm ((PST)) You can control the tendency of the bit to dig in or ride over the workpiece by changing (reducing in this case) the top rake and front rake. A shaper doesn't always need aggressive rake on the tool bit. Grind a tool bit with less front rake, then reduce top rake in increments to see when it works best for the material. Play with different rake angles. It's the best way to learn your machine and develop a "gut-level" feel for what it can do. On a lathe, mill or shaper, always remember Doc's advice, and when possible run the feed screw so it helps hold back from "dig-in". Rex ------- Re: South bend 7" tool height lock not working Posted by: "Tucker Tomlinson" tuckertomlinsonx~xxgmail.com Date: Wed Jan 9, 2013 5:21 pm ((PST)) Hi Rex, Thanks for the tip on the rake. I'm a complete novice at grinding tool bits, but I looked at a few texts online (and I might have stayed at a holiday inn express). I thought I was using a relatively shallow rake, just to get a feel for the machine: maybe 10deg front rake and 5deg top rake. Are these too aggressive? Your sentiment for getting a feel for what the machine can do is something I've heard elsewhere, in fact some of the threads from this group helped tip me off to that. Starting to fiddle with the grinds on my bits is what I was doing when I ran into the feed issue. At that point I figured I should sort out that issue before playing with any more bit grinds. Once I sort that out I will definitely be exploring and learning that gut instinct. Cheers Tucker ------- Re: South bend 7" tool height lock not working Posted by: "Rexarino" rexarinox~xxgmail.com Date: Wed Jan 9, 2013 6:00 pm ((PST)) I seem to remember Doc and I discussing front rake, with the possibly incorrect thought that he advocated less front rake than 10 degrees. If I post this, he'll surely correct me [BigGrin] Rex ------- Re: South bend 7" tool height lock not working Posted by: "Doc" n8as1x~xxaol.com docn8as Date: Wed Jan 9, 2013 7:16 pm ((PST)) fwiw ....back rake tends to accomodate dig ins..( perhaps not a problem w/ a new TIGHT machine, but who among us has one of them? (none of my five are new & tite ...) & as rex said less front clearance than used on a lathe is best for avoiding dig ins ...a few degrees is enuf. in industry when back rake WAS used, it was a very gradual large radius grind ..effectively just a few degrees, & with generous side rake ...using side rake only, mitigates dig ins & is preferable for loose machines, 15-20 deg .... heavier cuts are available w/ side rake ...moderate back rake is only used on shovel nose bits, used for shouldering in both directions & when set NEAR flat, give a smooth finish cut taking out the feed lines ( .003 depth of cut )... there is some info out there that states to avoid cranking the table back, use back rake only & then you can just continue in the opposite direction ...but it is w/ a sacrifice of depth of cut & a tendency to "dig in"...i do not consider it useful info xcept for lite cuts. w/ a proper bit grind, I can take .100 doc w/ 10 thou feed on 1018 steel on my WELL used atlas 7B,,& almost double that w/ the "leonardo " flex holder. i generally use a knife edge bit, similar to carbide "a:" bit, & when i want max efficiency, i angle the leading edge back abt 15 + degrees lead ...someone figured that out over a century ago, & why it IS more efficient, cause it appears to remove more metal cause of the slant, while not actually removing more metal in the total, escapes me....it DOES ease the tool into the work that way. hope this will help some best wishes doc ------- Re: South bend 7" tool height lock not working Posted by: "Doc" n8as1x~xxaol.com docn8as Date: Wed Jan 9, 2013 7:42 pm ((PST)) hi Rex i generally operate w/out ANY front (back) rake & 15-20 deg side rake as that seems the most efficient for me & the atlas seems to be happier w/ LOTS of side rake ..it is a well worn machine & so why tempt dig ins w/ back rake? ....other machines may handle it better.....my smith mills manual shows a few degrees back rake WITH abt 15 deg side rake on most tools .....Forrest Addy ( guru on the old chaski board ) once posted that he used NO rake on the shaper ....that blew me away ...he did get some static on that & i guess w/ a 4 ton 36 in shaper, you may get away w/ that .., but i cannot take the same cuts w/ 10 deg back rake as i can w/ 15-20 side rake w/ out dig ins & chatter...i have no argument w/ what works for anyone, i am just reporting my experience ...when i have only READ abt it, i usually try to remember to state that. when i first got my 16 in HD smith mills, i took some 1/2 thou doc cuts at 10 thou feed on 1018...it handled it, surface was rough, & machine appeared to want to walk ...that was the last time for cuts like that... i have no need for maximum production.....i once READ where an unattended machine walked thru the brick shop wall ....my unbolted down atlas HAS walked a foot or so while i WAS there ...w/ a fast heavy cut on 1018. best wishes doc ------- Re: South bend 7" tool height lock not working Posted by: "Tucker Tomlinson" tuckertomlinsonx~xxgmail.com Date: Thu Jan 10, 2013 3:21 am ((PST)) Funny you should mention machines walking through the wall, I just came across the very same story this afternoon. It's little bits like that which keep me working to ensure that my machines are set up as best they can be. I'll definitely give your rakes a try with the south bend. The ways are in good shape- still show some of the original factory scraping, and the machine seems pretty tight. Even so, I like your thinking: no reason to tempt chatter if you can help it. Cheers ------- Re: A novice question regarding cutting aluminum [Metal_Shapers] Posted by: "Miket_NYC" mctaglierix~xxgmail.com Date: Thu Jul 18, 2013 7:54 am ((PDT)) Tucker Tomlinson wrote: > What you want to do is get the parting tool out of your lathe, > put it in your shaper and...sorry, bad idea. Why would this be a bad idea? I don't see why a parting tool wouldn't work there, if mounted sturdily. Mike Taglieri ------- Re: A novice question regarding cutting aluminum Posted by: "Tucker Tomlinson" tuckertomlinsonx~xxgmail.com Date: Thu Jul 18, 2013 9:06 am ((PDT)) I'm not a very experienced machinist, just an avid amateur, but for what they are worth, I'll put my thoughts down: Parting tools have little to no relief on the sides, and they are thin, and prone to slight deflections as they cut. This leads to all kinds of chatter and friction unless your set-up is spot on. On the lathe, interrupted cuts tend to make this worse; I think because the blade flexes a little as it impacts and starts the cut. Since the shaper is always making an interrupted cut, my guess would be that you'd have trouble keeping the blade cutting smooth, especially for parting thicker pieces. If you wanted to try this I'd think you want to go at it like a slotting operation and grind a bit with the proper reliefs for slotting on the shaper. Yeah you lose a bit more material to the chips due to the bit thickness, but the time you save on setup and reduced chatter will probably make up for that. Lastly, and probably more importantly, unless you have a large shaper, it will be difficult to set up long pieces of stock for cutting repeatable lengths. Any decent cut off or band saw should be easy to set up for cutting down long stock since that's all it's designed to do. I can get a 10ft piece of 2"x2" box steel into my band saw in about 30s, and have the piece aligned for the cut in another 30s. (A simple outfeed leg for the long end is really handy for this kind of thing.) The cut is also more straightforward. With the shaper you need to manually feed the tool down, and slow the machine so you can time the advance not to happen during the cut. On the saws you just start sawing. Most bandsaws will also automatically feed down and shut off when the cut is done so you can even walk off to take care of other stuff while the cut happens. As I said, I'm just an amateur, I spend more time fixing old machines as a hobby than I do making chips with them. Maybe one of the more experienced members has tried this and can chime in to correct me. Cheers ------- Re: A novice question regarding cutting aluminum Posted by: "Jordan" jwprincicx~xxbigpond.com Date: Sat Jul 20, 2013 4:53 am ((PDT)) When I wanted to make a lathe tool holder, I used my 10 inch shaper to do the slot for the toolbit. I was having much trouble with the normal shaper tool, which was chattering, due to the necessary overhang. Just to try, I installed on the shaper my lathe parting toolholder, which is of the spring "gooseneck" type, fitted with a normal lathe parting toolbit. The result was very good -- smooth cuts with no chatter. So, I find there's nothing much wrong with a lathe parting tool in the shaper, especially if it's a sprung type. Jordan ------- Re: A novice question regarding cutting aluminum Posted by: "JOHN ASHBURN" ashburn_johnx~xxyahoo.com.au Date: Sat Jul 20, 2013 4:53 am ((PDT)) Hi parting tool in the holder works for me in a 11" shaper and a 24"; of course the big shaper has stepped up tooling but cuts well; ensure that you grind an angle rake so that the swarf curls to one side. I have cut a trench up to 1 inch deep many times. Last job was making lengths of tee nut sections. If you are careful you can retrieve the cut-out for small square section projects. John ------- Re: A novice question regarding cutting aluminum Posted by: "Doc" n8as1x~xxaol.com docn8as Date: Sat Jul 20, 2013 11:08 am ((PDT)) yes sir !!!!!!.......... below are some results of random testing FWIW ....my atlas 7 inch is limited to .125 wide slotting bit & a few thou DOC w/ a SOLID tool holder and a hundred thou DOC at 10t thou feed for surfacing w/ a SOLID holder. the leonardo type flex holder i built for the atlas 7 allows .200 slotting cuts & 200 thou surfacing cuts w/ out chatter marks .... near double. my 16 inch HD smith mills at #4500 does not like more than a 1/4 inch slotting cut w/ a solid holder. a straight thru borig bar holder, replacing the tool post in the clapper, such as used for internal slotting also nearly eliminates overhang when used for surface slotting. on this board (IIRC in pics) is my dimensioned sketches that a friend inserted for me, doc's leaonardo tool holder or maybe just leaonardo t9ol holder, maybe under tool holders?, ...there are two, one for 1/4 inch bit & one for a 3/8 bit off larger shapers...these holders carry a tool bit w/ cutting edge at or behind the clapper pin allowing the bit to flex away from cut, reducing the chatter tendancy ...simply made from a piece of flat bar in an evening. FWIW # 2 a very flexible tool holder carrying a 5/16 bit w/ a full flat cutting surface, allows me to POINT up w/ PLUNGE cuts a one inch bar at 144 rpm in my 1895 14 inch Reed lathe ...try that on a solid holder & the appreciation of flex holders will deepen. best wishes doc ------- Re: A novice question regarding cutting aluminum Posted by: "Jordan" jwprincicx~xxbigpond.com Date: Wed Jul 24, 2013 8:37 am ((PDT)) "Tucker Tomlinson" tuckertomlinsonx~xxgmail.com wrote: > Sounds like I'll have to find myself a gooseneck holder and try slotting > on the lathe again. I'll also have a serious look at making a leonardo > style holder for my SB7. Sounds like it really helps keep you > cutting nice. The suggestion is to use a lathe gooseneck sprung parting tool in the shaper. The Leonardo design is also sprung. Sketch is in the Files section. In its essentials, it is the same as a lathe gooseneck parting tool, but holds square toolbits rather than a blade. The important point is that it is made so as to "spring" around a weakened "hinge" point, so the toolbit lifts off the job when it encounters an increase in drag. If the hinge is in the wrong place, drag could make it plunge deeper into the cut and the result is a crash. You don't notice the sprung tool lifting - it just cuts smoothly. Jordan ------- Re: A novice question regarding cutting aluminum Posted by: "Richard Wilson" richardpwilson61x~xxyahoo.co.uk Date: Sat Jul 27, 2013 6:20 am ((PDT)) The important difference between a shaper gooseneck tool and one for the lathe, is that the on the one for the shaper, the tool cutting edge is level with the bottom of the tool shank, and for the lathe it's roughly level with the top of the shank. Richard ------- Re: A novice question regarding cutting aluminum Posted by: "Mark Hofer" markahoferx~xxmac.com Date: Sat Jul 27, 2013 6:20 am ((PDT)) I made one but did not find much improvement from it on my SB7". M ------- Re: A novice question regarding cutting aluminum Posted by: "Jordan" jwprincicx~xxbigpond.com Date: Tue Jul 30, 2013 7:58 am ((PDT)) If the cutting edge on a shaper is at the bottom of the shank/toolpost base, it's true that any bending movement will tend to lift the point off the job. But it's not the only way to get that to happen. If the tool holder has a deliberate weak "hinge" point located in any position so that it would make the toolbit lift off rather than dig in, you get the same effect. That would happen even if the cutting edge is some distance forward of the toolpost base. The important point to avoid chatter on a shaper is to organise it so the cutting edge is not forward of the bending zone. Jordan ------- Re: A novice question regarding cutting aluminum Posted by: "Richard Wilson" richardpwilson61x~xxyahoo.co.uk Date: Thu Aug 1, 2013 2:42 am ((PDT)) That's only true if the cutting forces are only pushing the tool tip upwards and out of cut. In practice they tend to push the tool tip backwards, which is of no consequence if the tool tip is level with the pivot point, which is the bottom leading corner of the clapper, (not the clapper pivot pin) just where the tool shank becomes unsupported. Even if you have a gooseneck tool, the pivot point about which the tip rotates is that bottom leading edge of the clapper, and if the tool tip is forward of there, then the tip, as it rotates about the pivot, will tend to dig in. The good point about the gooseneck tool, is that it will then flex upwards as well, to tend to reduce (but not entirely eliminate) the dig in, but for best results in a shaper or planer, use a gooseneck with the tool tip level with the bottom of the shank, then the dig in will not occur at all. Richard ------- Re: A novice question regarding cutting aluminum Posted by: "Graham Porcas" grahamporcasx~xxbtconnect.com Date: Tue Jul 30, 2013 8:41 am ((PDT)) Jordan I think you are making the same point as Richard, the swan neck shaper tool ensures that the cutting edge is behind the clapper pivot, a lathe type tool brings it forward with the problems as you describe. As a relatively new shaper user I found this out to my cost some years ago and made myself a universal tool holder which completely changed the way I now use the machine. Now no chatter, easy grooves, etc. and all because the cutting edge is behind the pivot, so important. I recommend any novice getting one of these as a priority. They come up on FleaBay occasionally but seem to go for silly prices so make one like I did, very easy! Happy to send a picture to anyone who is interested. Regards Graham ------- Re: A novice question regarding cutting aluminum Posted by: "Doc" n8as1x~xxaol.com docn8as Date: Fri Aug 2, 2013 2:27 am ((PDT)) consider the "Leonardo " style flex tool holder...the cutting tip is at the lowest point & BEHIND the pivot point ....i do not know its origin xcept that the first time i saw it was on a video from Leonardo on this board ...it appeared to be taking a clean cut much larger & deeper than the mass of the shaper wud seem to dictate. best wishes doc ------- Re: A novice question regarding cutting aluminum Posted by: "Jordan" jwprincicx~xxbigpond.com Date: Sun Aug 4, 2013 6:36 am ((PDT)) I put in the Files section a photo of two spring toolholders I have. I think it might be better to describe them as spring rather than gooseneck type, although they go by both names. The shape isn't really suggestive of a goose's neck. The smaller one is a lathe parting tool holder; the larger looks to have been made specifically for a shaper, and holds 3/8" square bits. Although the parting blade is thin with low strength in the sideways direction, it works fine in the shaper because there is no side load during the cutting stroke. On each of these, although the toolbit's cutting edge is forward of the tool shank's base, there is a weakened "hinge" zone even more forward so the cutting edge lifts off the job when required. Jordan ------- NOTE TO FILE: The following messages are extracted from a conversation (thread) that perfectly illustrates why searches through group archives can be frustratingly difficult. The subject title was hijacked (not changed when folks started completely different topics). Ostensibly it starts about a Logan shaper and changes to a discussion about an AMMCO shaper's problems and need for a manual and then how to make a taper pin for its clapper, and then goes into this general discussion about shaper bits. All good topics, but they could have had separate titles. ------- [Now actually discussing useful shaper bits] Re: Shipping weight Logan 8" shaper [Metal_Shapers] Posted by: "Dennis Turk" dennis.turk2x~xxfrontier.com Date: Sun Dec 8, 2013 6:08 pm ((PST)) Hi Charles and Andrew Sorry for stepping in here but you just reminded me of something. I have a buddy that actually uses his Atlas 7A shaper quite often. As I have given him quite a selection of slightly used inserts from my high tech business he has adapted them to his shaper. He loves using 35 and 55 degree high positive inserts on his shaper. Has made some special tool holders but also uses standard 1/2 change insert lathe tool holders in the clapper box. Talked to him today and he is making tenderizing hammers for Christmas presents and used his shaper to put them nasty pointy spikes on the head of the hammer. Said he was using a 55 degree tool. Said it worked just great in the 7075 aluminum he was using. So you shaper guys might give some thought to using insert lathe tools on your machines. Dennis ------- [Now actually discussing useful shaper bits] Re: Shipping weight Logan 8" shaper Posted by: "Glen Linscheid" partsproductionx~xxcenturylink.net Date: Sun Dec 8, 2013 6:54 pm ((PST)) Dennis, I read once that one shouldn't use a carbide tool in a shaper unless the shaper has a tool lifter attached. As most of us know a tool lifter on a shaper just raises the clapper on the return stroke so that the insert doesn't hit the work. I've seen many types of lifters on youtube, hydraulic shapers usually use the return pressure line to lift the clapper using a small cylinder, but mechanical shapers usually use a simple friction device to do the same thing. Anyone who has touched a carbide insert against a stationary workpiece in the lathe or mill just a tad bit too hard has had an insert break, and that's what the lifter tries to avoid. In normal turning a carbide insert generally has less longevity in an interrupted cut, cutting a shaft that has a keyway for instance, but every cut in a shaper is an interrupted cut. I suppose that a negative insert would take it better than a positive one, but I'm not speaking from experience at all. One rock solid advantage of a shaper is cheap tools, using HSS ground even to the shape of a gear tooth for instance, but a single 3/8" square tool lasts seemingly forever. The advantage of an insert tool in the lathe would probably also be seen in a shaper provided that the inserts aren't going gummy bagged right away, that is, if you are turning in the lathe and the insert goes dull simply replacing the insert gets one very close to where it was cutting before it went bad, whereas with the old lighthouse tool post and holder when you pull the tool to sharpen it you have to carefully sneak up on the surface with the fresh edge after grinding it. Confession time, I've owned 6 or 7 shapers but it's a mental illness I think, because I've only actually used a shaper in my work a few hours total. I own them because they are interesting somehow, not because they are valuable tools for me. By contrast my mills get used every day. This could be a very interesting and valuable discussion. ------- [Now actually discussing useful shaper bits] Re: Shipping weight Logan 8" shaper Posted by: "Dennis Turk" dennis.turk2x~xxfrontier.com Date: Sun Dec 8, 2013 7:11 pm ((PST)) Hi Glen, OK you have to understand that the inserts I gave Ratshooter to use are in the 650,000 to 750,00 rupture strength carbide. Far less brittle than brazed carbide lathe tooling and even more shock resistant than HSS. These new generation inserts are vertically indestructible. Least in a shaper. I believe HSS is in the 300,000 to 450,00 range so not nearly as strong as the modern carbide inserts. Least the ones we use at TMI. The other thing is you should see the surface finishes you get with these tools. Wonderful. DT ------- New South Bend shaper [Metal_Shapers] Posted by: donashby1968x~xxgmail.com dutchman1202 Date: Fri Dec 27, 2013 6:15 pm ((PST)) Hello again all. I posted some before pictures yesterday and added some new after pictures today. I built a little box to catch the chips in out of 1/4 plywood. I cut it out and fitted it around the vice so I can use it or remove it to empty when needed. It really keeps the floor clean in front of the table (I'm sure this has been done before). It works great for smaller jobs and if I do a bigger job that it won't fit, I will build a bigger box! I forgot to say that I paid $650 for the shaper, vice, indexer. After hearing from you all on what you paid. I don't feel to bad at all. Next I plan on building a internal key way cutter that will fit it. They are $100+ on e-bay I think I can do a lot better than that doing it myself. Thanks Don ------- Re: New South Bend shaper Posted by: "Doc" n8as1x~xxaol.com docn8as Date: Fri Dec 27, 2013 6:43 pm ((PST)) Don ....build a straight line internal key way cutter to replace the tool post ....just turn up a bar w/ a holder in back to seat in the clapper & thread it for a nut to lock it ...thin the bar to desired size & bore the end for a tool bit ...a square bit will do well in a round hole ..the edges bite in & the set screw on the flat anchors it ...cut UP so that you take the lash out of the top slide ...the straight thru bar eliminates the cantilever flex ....been around for over a hundred years, but almost "lost", my 1903 steptoe 16 inch arrived w/ two WELL used bars....most shops used an angle plate w/ a slot or hole & clamped the gear to it, givig better purchase ofr a larger gear than just grabbing in the vice. best wishes doc PS the boring bar holder can be made so that it accepts 1/2 inch boring bars by boring the basic shouldered unit to take a 1/2 inch bar to take the varied bars w/ bits ...just turn up whatever size needed w/ a 1/2 inch section turned down on the end., IIRC i think someone posted for me a sketch i drew somewhere in files or pics ???? ------- South bend 7" internal cutter [Metal_Shapers] Posted by: donashby1968x~xxgmail.com dutchman1202 Date: Sat Dec 28, 2013 12:42 pm ((PST)) Hello all. I was in the shop early this morning made up a internal key way cutter. For the 7" South bend. Posted a few pictures in my album for critique. I am not a trained machinist nor do I claim to be. I am self taught from reading everything I can get my hands on watching videos and of course You tube and asking lots of questions from guys in several groups I belong to. So the things I make are not perfect but they do work (usually!!). I was going to make one that replaced the tool holder but I did not have any round stock on hand to build it that was big enough. Oh well this one will work for now! Thanks Don ------- Re: South bend 7" internal cutter Posted by: "Glen Linscheid" partsproductionx~xxcenturylink.net Date: Sat Dec 28, 2013 3:09 pm ((PST)) Don, Some of the finest machine work I've ever seen was done by "amateurs". When you go to model engineering shows and see the amazing things done by some little wrinkled guy with a cane it is a wonderment. Of course, working alone without pay, no one needs to know how many parts were made that ended up in the scrap bin, but commercial machine shops have a scrap bin too. (grin) Glen ------- NOTE TO FILE: This next conversation about using carbide inserts in a metal shaper follows another conversation about repairing an Atlas shaper. You can read that here in the text file called Atlas Metal Shaper, starting Mon Jan 5, 2015 with the subject shown as "Restortation of an Atlas 7A`". [Yes I'm leaving the original typo in case you ever want to look this thread up in Yahoo's archives.] ------- Carbide Cutters [Metal_Shapers] Posted by: "bill baedke" bbaedke2x~xxyahoo.com bbaedke2 Date: Tue Jan 6, 2015 8:15 am ((PST)) I would like to hear more about using carbide on a shaper. --What insert --do you have a device that lifts the tool on the back stroke --what material are you cutting Thanks, Bill B ------- Re: Carbide Cutters Posted by: "dennis Turk" dennis.turk2x~xxfrontier.com dturkcars Date: Tue Jan 6, 2015 10:50 am ((PST)) Hi Bill OK first don’t worry about lifting the tool on the back stroke as today’s modern carbide inserts are way stronger than HSS. Like two times the rupture strength. The high tech inserts used at my company usually have a rupture strength of between 650K and 750,00 psi. Tensile strength is way higher than HSS also. As to inserts we use, well any insert you use on your lathe. If you're using 1/2 or 5/8 square shank insert holders for your lathe, just clamp them in the clapper box and go to shaping. Some of the inserts that work best are the really high positive inserts. Like 28 degrees positive and these are ground on all sides some down to a .001 nose radius. These new inserts are so sharp you can shave with them. We have sent several of our guys down to the ER to get some stitches in the back of their hand or forearm where they bumped an insert in a tool holder in the turret of a CNC lathe. These things can be wicked. But on the other hand they cut like crazy. I will take some pictures of some of the inserts we use so you guys can see what I am talking about. These are not your run of the mill cheap eBay inserts. We work a lot of Titanium as well as all the stainless materials at my company and the high end inserts usually go for $15 to 20 bucks an insert. I know way too expensive for the home shop guy but what I use at home is not new ones but ones that have been used at work and maybe have only lost 20% of their life and so I use up the other 80%:-))) As to cutting different materials in the shaper we cut just about everything. From tool steel to aluminum. Also the shaper I am restoring right now will be going to a hobby shop that will work bronze and cast iron castings for model steam engines and such. I am not really up on insert terminology but my buddy Ratshooter is and he is the one that has been doing most of the work with these inserts on his shaper. You guys have to understand I have restored nearly 50 antique machine lathes mills and shapers but these are not used but rather are on display at my business as kind of a museum. I am however using the Dalton lathe in this beach home hobby shop. By the way anyone living in the Northwest or passing though and would like to see my collection and also a tour of Turk Mfg. Let me know as I always like showing off the business and my collection. We are located in Hillsboro Oregon about 15 miles from Portland. Will be out in my home shop today so will take some pictures and post them later on my shaper album. Dennis ------- Re: Carbide Cutters Posted by: 32chiselx~xxcomcast.net cabro32 Date: Wed Jan 7, 2015 7:42 pm ((PST)) Hi Dennis: Can you supply the seller and manufacturer of these sharp high strength high tech carbide inserts. I am trying to mill some high strength crawler parts with Chinese carbide inserts that came with the boring bar kit I bought. They just bounce off and chip. What you described is just what I need. Thanks Joe ------- Re: Carbide Cutters Posted by: "dennis Turk" dennis.turk2x~xxfrontier.com dturkcars Date: Wed Jan 7, 2015 10:07 pm ((PST)) Hi Joe. When your email came in I was talking to Ratshooter and he is sending me a picture of how he uses a lathe tool holder and insert tooling on his Atlas shaper. Soon as I get it I will post it up on my shaper album. Dennis ------- Re: Carbide Cutters Posted by: "Tucker Tomlinson" tuckertomlinsonx~xxgmail.com Date: Fri Jan 9, 2015 9:43 am ((PST)) Thanks for filling us in Dennis. I was wondering about this a few months ago but never looked into it. What got me started was looking at an insert based end-mill. My thinking is that each insert in an end mill is always taking an interrupted cut. Seems to me like any insert that can stand up to climb milling in an end-mill could probably stand up to shaper work without chipping. I look forward to hearing more details. Cheers ------- Re: Carbide Cutters Posted by: "dennis Turk" dennis.turk2x~xxfrontier.com dturkcars Date: Fri Jan 9, 2015 10:19 am ((PST)) Hi Joe. Well last night I finished up the Atlas 7A and its ready to be moved to its new home. I also have a business that though I have an operations manager I take a very active role in the running of the company so I am at work three days a week. Sometimes I am a little slow at responding back to questions. As to the insert I talked to my buddy Ratshooter and he is going to send me a picture or pictures of him running insert tooling on his Atlas. I know he is using just a standard lathe tool holder. Now most of you guys are probably using old Armstrong tooling on a lathe if you have one. That tooling by the way is the biggest abuser of lathe compound Tee slots ever devised. It’s funny the English and other European countries would not use that style of tool holders but we did. Bit of trivia but one of the most popular tool holder used by the English was actually designed and patented by an American but US machine builders would not use it so the English did. So this being said you will need to purchase if you don’t have any the proper lathe tool holder to use these inserts. I know that Ratshooter just clamps his lathe tool into the clapper box just like you would a standard shaper tool holder. You are correct about how an insert works even in a milling cutter. We hammer the hell out of insert milling machine tooling at Turk Mfg on all the stainless materials as well as a lot of very high nickel material and also a lot of titanium. In fact you will not find a HSS tool at Turk Mfg. Oh drills and such but even then we use mostly carbide drills. Can anyone guess what our tool budget is a month? If I can get some time, I will go through our boxes of used inserts and see if I can put some care packages together. You see the surface finishes that we are required to hold on a lot of our Titanium work is so high sometimes an insert will only be used for one or two passes and then has to be replaced. These tools still have 90% or better of their tool life left and so these are the ones I and my buddy Ratshooter use. Will see if I can bag up a dozen or so bags of these used inserts that I can send out to you guys to try. Dennis ------- Re: Carbide Cutters Posted by: "Tucker Tomlinson" tuckertomlinsonx~xxgmail.com Date: Fri Jan 9, 2015 10:53 am ((PST)) Always fascinating to hear about your shop Dennis. I'm usually pretty happy taking repeated measures and test fits to sneak up on a desired tolerance, but it's pretty stunning to hear what a professional outfit can do these days. I'm sure you could do in minutes a job that takes me hours, and maintain higher tolerances while doing so. One advantage I see to the HSS tooling is for beginners and hobbyists. With HSS I can grab a couple of blanks and toy around with how different cutter geometry works for different metals just by regrinding till I find a geometry that gives me what I'm looking for. That said, the carbide does everything else so much better I've been slowly working my way towards carbide for my primary tooling. Cheers ------- Re: Carbide Cutters Posted by: "David Carne" chukka02x~xxtiscali.co.uk siempre02 Date: Fri Jan 9, 2015 3:39 pm ((PST)) Dennis, I was under the impression that carbide inserts were meant to use a high cutting speed and although I use them on my lathe they do not work at anywhere near their design speeds. However I am not disputing what your friend Ratshooter has achieved and will try one of my lathe tools. Regards David ------- Re: Carbide Cutters Posted by: "dennis Turk" dennis.turk2x~xxfrontier.com dturkcars Date: Fri Jan 9, 2015 5:02 pm ((PST)) When you say not fast enough you’re talking about the old cemented carbide lathe tool bits with a chuck of carbide silver soldered on the end of a piece of steel. Yes these were really blunt instruments but today’s inserts will work at any speed. Slow or fast. I use only carbide inserts on me 8 1/2 inch Dalton lathe that has a top speed of maybe 800 rpm. We get wonderful finishes on that little lathe using insert tooling. Fact I don’t think we have a piece of HSS tooling in that shop other than taps and drills. Even on our little Rockwell milling machine we use just carbide. Kind of gotten spoiled over the years having it so readily available to me. Dennis ------- Re: Carbide Cutters Posted by: dennis.turk2x~xxfrontier.com dturkcars Date: Sat Jan 17, 2015 7:17 am ((PST)) Check out the photo section I just put up three new pictures. Two are of my finished Atlas shaper that is now in place at my hobby shop in Florence Oregon. The third picture is of a piece of hot rolled steel we machined this last week using a carbide insert tool I had been using on my Dalton lathe. If you look close you can see the reflection of the insert in the surface of the just machined steel. Dennis ------- Re: Carbide Cutters Posted by: dozierhcx~xxaol.com dozierhc Date: Sat Jan 17, 2015 6:29 pm ((PST)) Dennis.. Great job on the shaper! If mine looks half as good as that one when I'm done I'll be happy. I am presently hand scraping the cheap green paint off mine and prepping parts to give them a good industrial enamel. That and examining and replacing worn parts where I find them. Have a question on the carbide toolholder. What is the width and height of that holder? Did you have to make a special lantern post to hold it in the shaper clapper, or does it fit a stock Atlas lantern? I guess brand would be nice information if you happen to remember it. Thanks, Hank Dozier ------- Re: Carbide Cutters Posted by: "dennis Turk" dennis.turk2x~xxfrontier.com dturkcars Date: Fri Jan 23, 2015 9:08 am ((PST)) On Sun, Jan 18, 2015, 'dennis Turk' wrote: > Hi Hank Forgot your other question. As to the tool holders I am using they are 3/8 square shank insert tools I use on my Dalton 8 ½ inch lathe that is equipped with an OXA size quick change tool post. These I got from Little Machine Shop. They use the 35 and 55 and 80 degree inserts and are ¼ inch IC. We use a lot of this size insert at my business so I have a steady supply of used ones though I did steal a few new ones some time agoJ I have a 3/8 by ¾ by 1 inch spacer I use under the square head bolt in the tool holder on the clapper box. One nice thing using these tools you get the maximum use of your shaper as far as what size work piece you can put in the vice. With these tools you keep the cutting insert very close to the clapper box so you get maximum strength. There is no way I would use an Armstrong tool holder on any of my lathes nor would I ever use one on a Shaper. They take up too much room, too flimsy and in the case of lathes the most non-rigid tool holder you can use. These old tool holders are the reason we see so many compounds on lathes damaged. If I did not have these tool holders where my shaper is at, I would invest in some ½ or even 5/8 square shank tool holders and machine these down in width to fit the lantern tool post on the clapper box. Reason being is these use 3/8 IC size inserts that would be more appropriate for a shaper. At my business we use some very high positive 3/8 IC inserts that will remove metal at a fantastic rate. On a shaper you could take deeper cuts faster feeds and put less strain on the shaper power train. < Hi Guys The one day this week I was at my business I spent some time looking at some of the new insert holders to see if we could find a couple of styles that would be well suited to the shaper. With modifications of course. What I have ordered is two holders one for 3/8 IC high positive 35 degree inserts. The other one is a negative rake ½ inch IC holder. Now usually I don’t like negative rake inserts other than on very heavy duty cutting machines like I have at my MFG facility. But I found some inserts we are now using that though they are negative rake they are shaped to have a high positive relief angle. So I ordered a holder for these inserts. I also found in the McMaster Carr catalog quite reasonable priced tool holders. I believe one was just over $50 and the other one was like $57 but will have to check on that. I am going up to work today (it's payday and they still let me pass out checksJ) and the holders are there. Now these holders I ordered have a 3/4 square; chance so they will have to be machined down to a thickness of 7/16 so they will fit in the lantern tool post at least on the Atlas they will. Not sure about other brands but can also check my SB but I think it’s the same size tool holder. Now McMaster Carr also has the same holders in 3/8 and 1/2 square shank for a little less money. I think the 1/2 inch one was around $47 and the 3/8 was a little less than that. All three would be OK on your shaper but I chose the 3/4 so I did not have to use such a large shim under the locking screw. I have also picked out a couple of what I think will be terrific inserts. Now I picked the holders style and insert angle for a reason. The cutting edge of the insert will be directly in the center of the clapper box or in the center of the tool holder. Most of the insert tool holders place the insert off to the right or left of center and my concern was this would impart a fairly significant twisting motion into the clapper box and I don’t think these little machines will like that. You guys that have much larger shapers it should not make any difference at all to them. With this style of holder and insert the angle is 40 degrees on each side of the insert so moving in either direction the angle of the insert to the work piece will be the same. I use these inserts on all my lathes for chamfering tools and always have one in my tool holder. One other thing to think about with using inserts, they come in different nose radiuses so I have picked inserts with rather large nose radiuses as that is what we usually use on a shaper when we hand grind a tool. The picture you seen in the photo section of the finish on the chunk of hot rolled steel was with a tool that had a very small nose radius of I think .005. When we cut that piece of steel you see we fed down .015 and a step over of .002. We actually were getting some light gold to blue chips off the shaper. Now if the feed is correct and the insert is of proper shape for the job, most of the heat from cutting will in fact go out with the chip not into your work piece. You guys would not believe what we do with our NL 3000 Mori Sieki lathe. We put a 3 inch diameter hole through 9 inches of 402 Stainless steel. We do it in one pass, no pecking, but the secret is 1000 psi high pressure through the tool coolant 40 hp on the spindle and 3500 pounds of force on the tool. That is, by the way, only 80% of the capacity of the machine. We drill this hole using a four 1/2 IC insert drill with high positive inserts. Now here is the kicker. We drill this hole in 73 to 76 seconds. It’s amazing to watch. I know Glen will know what I am talking about as he has seen the machine. One of the secrets of machining on modern machines today is tool geometry, high pressure through the tool coolant, and HP. With these inserts, if things are working correctly, the cutting edge of the insert only touches the work piece the instant it contacts the metal. Once the cut starts the material starts to separate ahead of the cutting edge of the insert. When you look at the wear pattern on the insert you will see wear behind the cutting edge but the edge itself will look like new. They actually have been able to video this and have seen it. Dennis the long winded old fart out in Oregon. ------- Re: Carbide Cutters Posted by: dozierhcx~xxaol.com dozierhc Date: Sat Jan 24, 2015 11:43 am ((PST)) Dennis... Not looking for a "care package" of insert cutters and holders, but if you have time, it might be nice to post a file with part numbers and sources for the inserts and tool holders for us. A brief description of the insert type and its types of usage would be really beneficial. That way we can get our own setups for use as we need them. Thanks for letting us know about this new tech for our old machines. Hank Dozier ------- Re: Carbide Cutters Posted by: "dennis Turk" dennis.turk2x~xxfrontier.com dturkcars Date: Sat Jan 24, 2015 3:45 pm ((PST)) As I go through the inserts I have stolen from work I will put together what holders I used and what inserts. I did look around on eBay this morning and you can get just about anything you need there and for better prices than from a tool house most of the time. I will not be back down to my coast shop for a couple of weeks so will not have a chance to try some of these till then. I do have an Atlas and a SB shaper on display at work but lord help me if I get steel chips in the carpet the house cleaners will fry me J Dennis ------- Re: You boys seen this Ammco shaper yet? [Metal_Shapers] Posted by: okrejcix~xxyahoo.com okrejci Date: Sat Jan 24, 2015 3:46 pm ((PST)) The shaper's selling point was that one could cut any shape with a nickel, 5 cent, tool bit; so, unless there's access to cheap or free cemented carbide, high speed steel is the way to go. It's very good at cutting internal features like keyways; hence, you'll find functioning vertical shapers still in use at factories and shops. Beyond that, the general horizontal shaper wears noticeably at the ram, leading to curved instead of straight cutting, which is fixed at the next operation: filing, grinding or scraping, and, so, lives up to its calling, a replacement for the hammer and cold chisel. This makes it obsolete in most manufacturing. Milling machines can run any kind of tool bit in a fly cutter for one-sie-two-sie work, and have the same or greater stock removal rates of shapers with comparable size motors. ------- Re: You boys seen this Ammco shaper yet? Posted by: "dennis Turk" dennis.turk2x~xxfrontier.com dturkcars Date: Sat Jan 24, 2015 4:57 pm ((PST)) Well for a fact cemented carbide are worthless in a shaper or a lathe for that matter as they just can’t stand the forces. On the other hand insert tooling is a totally different story. If you see a business with a shaper and they're using it, they must be in the Ozarks or in Appalachia. No modern shop would have one on the floor for any reason. Hobby people will however use one as I do occasionally and so does my buddy Ratshooter. The last time I have seen a shaper used in a business in Oregon was back in the sixties. ------- Re: You boys seen this Ammco shaper yet? Posted by: okrejcix~xxyahoo.com okrejci Date: Sat Jan 24, 2015 5:37 pm ((PST)) About forty years ago is right for a five cent tool bit and about the same time shapers stopped being manufactured. ------- Re: You boys seen this Ammco shaper yet? Posted by: "Dennis Conway" dconway00x~xxcomcast.net conwayd98 Date: Sat Jan 24, 2015 8:19 pm ((PST)) So which machine did you use to peel back those insert holders to fit the shaper - assuming you didn't get any chips in the office carpet. Denny C. ------- Re: You boys seen this Ammco shaper yet? Posted by: okrejcix~xxyahoo.com okrejci Date: Sat Jan 24, 2015 8:19 pm ((PST)) Actually, shops that specialize in gearing, racks and other drive train parts still use shapers because there's no other efficient way to make herringbones, "stacked" gears, internal gearing and splining. Granted, the shapers are also specialized and can't do anything else except cut teeth. ------- Re: You boys seen this Ammco shaper yet? Posted by: "dennis Turk" dennis.turk2x~xxfrontier.com dturkcars Date: Sun Jan 25, 2015 5:43 am ((PST)) Hi Dennis I have a Webb mill here at home with a Proto Trax control on it. I used a four inch diameter five insert shell mill. Spun it at about 2000 rpm. The insert holders are Dorian good top brand USA made holders and they are as hard and tough as a Wales pecker boiled in tar. Shop's a mess but the chips came off mostly as fire so just ash on the floor. Other than the fire I started in a garbage pail next to the mill. Dennis ------- Re: Carbide Cutters [Metal_Shapers] Posted by: pduselx~xxsprintmail.com pdusel Date: Sun Jan 25, 2015 10:30 am ((PST)) Just a question. I've heard shapers can make a surface that's easier/ better to scrape into shape for a working surface. Would the carbide inserts make a better surface finish on cast iron than HSS? Would a surface machined this way, assuming the shaper is shaping flat surfaces, take less work to set up/scrape? Just a thought, Pete ------- Re: Carbide Cutters Posted by: "dennis Turk" dennis.turk2x~xxfrontier.com dturkcars Date: Sun Jan 25, 2015 10:56 am ((PST)) Hi Pete In the last 20 years of restoring old antique machines scraping has been a common denominator in all I have restored. I use a carbide dovetail cutter when I am working on lathe cross slides compounds and mill tables and or knees. This type of tool leaves a radial or swirl pattern in the flat ways. Depending on the condition of my cutter and the bearings in my mill I can get a really good finish that is easy to scrape in, or in the case of the mill I have now that really needs new spindle bearings, I get a rougher finish and is much more difficult to scrape. With what little I have done on a shaper the finish I get on steel or cast iron is very smooth and though I have not reconditioned a slide way on a shaper the surface you would get would be a piece of cake to scrape. We have a Profalometer at my business so soon as I get back to my coast shop and try the new insert holders I will let you guys know what kind of surface finish I am getting. The one we did a couple of weeks ago using one of my Dalton tool holders and a piece of cold rolled steel we got somewhere between a 12 and 18 surface finish. Best way to explain this is a 2 is a mirror. Usually the best finish you can get with the bottom of and end mill is about a 32. Little better with the side of the milling cutter. On a good lathe or a CNC lathe with modern insert tooling we have recorded surface finishes down to a 4 on Molybdenum or pure Molly. We work a lot of titanium also and we have to have an 8 finish on these electron microscope lens elements so a lathe will give you nearly as good a finish as a surface grinder will. Dennis ------- [Cutting internal keyways with any metal shaper] Re: Rhodes 7" Shaper [Metal_Shapers] Posted by: "Rex Burkheimer" burkheimerx~xxgmail.com ar1911 Date: Fri Feb 19, 2016 6:11 am ((PST)) For cutting internal keyways, the best tool is a custom-made tool that replaces the lantern toolpost altogether. It's replaced with a base to fit the TP socket on the clapper. From that you have a rigid boring bar facing forward. Clapper is locked Rex B - DFW ------- Re: Rhodes 7" Shaper Posted by: "Charles Brumbelow" mrb37211x~xxyahoo.com mrb37211 Date: Fri Feb 19, 2016 9:24 am ((PST)) Not a Rhodes shaper owner but thanks for the tip. Atlas and one of the kit built whose name escapes me at the moment. What should the interface between the clapper and the custom boring tool look like? My first thoughts on a design remind me of a Rube Goldberg device. Thanks Charles ------- Re: Rhodes 7" Shaper Posted by: l_schoolkatex~xxyahoo.com l_schoolkate Date: Fri Feb 19, 2016 9:24 am ((PST)) That works for me too. I have one base that will take ordinary lathe boring bars, the type that hold a HSS cutter in a square slot using a setscrew. Works real good for small bores, keyways and even splines. For larger bores I use a custom one piece base that I have made with a separate head. The inner part is just a threaded post, sticking out perpendicular to the end of the ram. A large nut locks it to the clapper. The outer part is a capped, threaded tube with a square hole across. I just tighten the tube part over the post to clamp the cutter in the square hole. The tube and base have flats for a wrench. It's fine thread throughout. My post is 3/4" but this could be scaled up easily. This isn't my idea, just something I copied. ------- Re: Rhodes 7" Shaper Posted by: irbyratx~xxcox.net irbyrat Date: Fri Feb 19, 2016 9:24 am ((PST)) If you want to see a picture of what Rex is talking about, go to our "Files" section and open the file "/metal/Logan_Slotting_Post_for_Keyways.pdf". It's the bottom item in the photo, and there's a drawing of it too. Irby ------- Re: Rhodes 7" Shaper Posted by: "Doc" n8as1x~xxaol.com docn8as Date: Fri Feb 19, 2016 9:33 pm ((PST)) this may be redundant but FIW.....ALSO, cutting UP on backstroke w/ slide locked, takes out the slack & prevents "dig ins" from TP screw/nut wear, which can occur when cutting down... best wishes doc ------- Re: Rhodes 7" Shaper Posted by: jmartin957x~xxaol.com jmartin957 Date: Fri Feb 19, 2016 9:34 pm ((PST)) You can use toolholders, but you can also hold bits right in the lantern itself, which will give you more rigidity. 3/8" square bits are a good size. IIRC the toolpost will take 7/16", but those are pretty rare. Probably the handiest toolholder is one that will allow you to angle the cutter, making it easier to cut dovetails, T-slots, etc. The Armstrong type boring bar holder will not be of any use, as it holds the cutter in the wrong orientation. ------- ------------------------------------------------------------------ This is just one of some 80 files about machining and metalworking and useful workshop subjects that can be read at: http://www.janellestudio.com/metal/index.html ------------------------------------------------------------------