This is just one of some 80 files about machining and metalworking and useful workshop subjects that can be read at: http://www.janellestudio.com/metal/index.html ------------------------------------------------------------------ Detailed information to help select a metal shaper from the many different makes and sizes. The conversations here will help you in the selection of a metal shaper that will meet your particular needs and circumstances. If you have other questions, please post them to the appropriate metal group, and if possible correspond directly with individuals who use the ones on your short list. There is also a short discussion of metal shapers versus milling machines (mills) in the "Mill Comparisons" text file. If you got to this file directly from my HOME PAGE, return there by using your browser's back button. BUT if you came to this file as the result of a web search engine, see many additional files on my home page Machining and Metalworking at Home http://www.janellestudio.com/metal/index.html SAFETY WARNING BEWARE: DO NOT ASSUME that any subject matter or procedure or process is safe or correct or appropriate just because it was mentioned in a news/user group or was included in these files or on this site or on any other web site or was published in a magazine or book or video. Working with metals and machinery and chemicals and electrical equipment is inherently dangerous. Wear safety devices and clothing as appropriate. Remove watches, rings, and jewellery -- and secure or remove loose clothing -- before operating any machine. Read, understand and follow the latest operating procedures and safety instructions provided by the manufacturer of your machine or tool or product. 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(c) Copyright 2003 - 2015 Machining and Metalworking at Home The form of the collected work in this text file (including editing, additions, and notes) is copyrighted and this file is not to be reproduced by any means, including electronic, without written permission except for strictly personal use. =========================================================================== Date: Fri, 02 Aug 2002 14:16:20 -0400 From: Alex Barrie Subject: Shaper replace mill Just wondering if you guys would prefer a shaper over a mill? I am looking to get a shaper but it would mean selling my mill? what are your recommendations? Alex ------- Date: Fri, 2 Aug 2002 13:55:37 -0500 From: Mike M Fendley Subject: Re: Shaper replace mill If your mill is truly "barely useable" and the shaper is in good shape, has a vise, and is accurate, go for the shaper! You'll have fun learning a new machine tool. Your main limitation is that you won't be able to bore extremely accurate round holes, but you can sure "shape" a number of different holes from splines to internal gears. Your tooling costs will go way down as well. Don't buy a dog of a shaper, make sure it's in good shape. ------- Date: Fri, 2 Aug 2002 14:18:57 -0500 From: "Ray Ethridge" Subject: Re: Shaper replace mill Alex, as much as I like my shaper there are many more functions I perform on my vertical mill than on my shaper. I am afraid if I had to get rid of one it would not be the mill. Fortunately I don't have to make the decision. Good luck with yours! Ray Ethridge ------- Date: Fri, 2 Aug 2002 17:10:59 -0400 From: "Dave Audette" Subject: Re: Shaper replace mill Alex, shapers are *fun* machines and can do an awful lot, but there were replaced by mills for a reason Your mill is more versatile and can do a wider range of work. I think that a mill and a shaper compliment each other well but if you could only have one that I'd sure stick with the mill. Better to take some time, save some money and wait for a decent shaper to come your way instead of ditching your mill to get one. Dave ------- Date: Sat, 03 Aug 2002 10:59:14 +1200 From: "" Subject: Re: Shaper replace mill While I think I agree with you Dave, the main reason that mills replaced shapers is that they don't require such skilled labour to operate. The mill instead puts the skill (and expense!) into the cutter, which then requires skilled labour and special equipment to grind. So for production work, the mill wins on the basis that one skilled person can set up a lot of machines which can then be operated by relatively unskilled people. But for an amateur shop, the shaper has a lot going for it, in that it can do a very wide range of jobs, without needing expensive cutters, or the tool and cutter grinder to sharpen them. Each can do jobs that the other can't, or that are more difficult on the other. So the range of work contemplated will also come into it. Of course, if you were only going to have one cutting tool, then the shaper can do a whole lot more than a mill can! I commonly use four, the facing tool, left and right knife (corner) tools, and a slot tool. The left and right knife tool bits have a narrow tool for dovetails ground on the other end of the same piece of HSS, so that is covered too. Now, how many slot drills, facing cutters, dovetail cutters etc do you need to cover the same work on a mill? But having said that...I think the best approach might still be to retain the mill and wait a bit for a suitable shaper. I'm not sure why the Atlas mill is "barely usable" and I am not familiar with that brand at all, but perhaps it might be better to work to overcome its shortcomings than to buy something which may have its own problems. (The devil you know...) regards John ------- Date: Fri, 2 Aug 2002 20:23:09 -0400 From: Pete Somebody Subject: Re: Shaper replace mill Not to put too fine a point on it ... IMO you'd have to be nuts to have a shaper and no mill. The mill is just way more versatile. If your mill is barely serviceable, best would be to scrap it and get a better one. Shapers are much more fun, and can be used with much cheaper tooling; and with a little ingenuity, a shaper can to a lot of unlikely tasks. Plenty of jobs look as if only a mill could do them, but turn out to be doable on the shaper. But at some point this can begin to look more like a stunt than a sensible way to work; and at a point beyond that, you get into the jobs that really are mill-only. I use the shaper over the mill whenever I can, because I like it better and because I have a pretty good shaper and a crappy mill. But if I could only have one, the shaper would be out the door in a heartbeat. Pete Somebody http://artfulbodger.net/ ------- Date: Sun, 04 Aug 2002 16:05:07 +1200 From: "" Subject: Re: Shaper replace mill I will of course concede that pockets are a bit of a problem for a shaper. But steps generally are no problem. If you saw my recent post, you should know by now that curves are also not too much problem, I can use the between centres approach for small radii, and a hinged table and slide for large radii, from about 7.5 inches to infinity. This includes cutting the inside curve of my expansion link, in guage plate too. Mills tend to require special jack ups for curves too...Plus I get that good shaper finish on my curves. And rotary table stuff...well, you can fit a rotary table to a shaper too, and do all sorts of fun things. That has to be next on my list of things to make for the shaper. I have a nice big worm and wheel lying around for it too. If you can't do it with a shaper and a lathe, it probably isn't needed for a steam engine....or else you can always emulate the oldtimers with hammer, chisel, and files. Cylindr heads for IC engines are one area where a mill would be preferable. I think it is quite easy to get into a mindset that says that the shaper is only for doing flat surfaces. Granted, it may take some messing around to set up to do the other things, but once done you are ready for lots of interesting stuff, and the special parts needed can often be made yourself. I have done the curves around the eyes of connecting rods with just a stud mounted hanging over the edge of the table. The cut is controlled by swinging the rod by hand with a bolted on lever. I tend to think that a mill, whether horizontal or vertical, is a bit of an orphan unless there is a tool and cutter grinder with it. OK, you can buy the cutters, but what do you do when they need touching up? A good range of cutters for your cheap little mill could easily cost more than the machine did. Certainly the prices I paid for my shapers would not buy many milling cutters. I think the cost of the six gear cutters was more than my AMMCO cost. Don't worry about the nuts comment, you would not be the first anyway! I think anyone who sets out to put a steamplant in a small boat probably qualifies anyway. After all, quite a small Honda fourstroke would do the job just as well and much cheaper to buy! regards John ------- Date: Fri, 03 Jan 2003 19:52:18 -0000 From: "dkinzer2000 " Subject: Re: Which shaper is the best to Buy???? As far as which is the best I am reminded of a T-shirt that I saw that said "Beauty is in the eye of the beerholder." As it applies to shapers, I think that that means you need to decide what characteristics of the machine are important to you. After quite a while of looking around, I finally bought an Atlas 7B about two months ago. I can give you some idea of the process that I went through before buying. Firstly, do your research. One place to start, obviously, is the message database here. There is a wealth of useful information in the messages on this forum. Another resource is Tony Griffith's machine tool information archive at http://www.lathes.co.uk. A convenient starting point there is the page for Atlas shapers: http://www.lathes.co.uk/atlasshaper/index.html. Note that on that page you'll find links to pages for some other brands of shapers. If you know people that have shapers, go see them in operation and find out what they like and dislike about their particular machine. Set up a search on eBay that will email you when shapers show up and add the auctions to your watch list. This will help you understand how shapers of various makes and in various states of being are valued by the marketplace. Also, search the completed auctions to see what the recent action has been. Contact machine tool dealers in your area and find out what machines they have on hand and what they've seen recently. After some time, you'll focus in on one or more machines that you'd buy if they meet your price, condition and location criteria. At this point you'll be ready to buy but don't rush it. If you miss one opportunity, another will be along. For me, I focused on the Atlas (but particularly avoiding the early model which doesn't have the front table support). They seem to be available quite frequently, I like the way they look and I had previously had good experiences dealing with the folks at Clausing who sell (some) parts for them. That said, however, given the right opportunity, I would have purchased a South Bend, Logan or Ammco/Delta/Rockwell. Hope this helps. ------- Date: Sat, 04 Jan 2003 18:43:46 -0000 From: "Art Volz " Subject: Re: Which shaper is the best to Buy???? What a question!!! So...a few questions from me: How much money in your budget? How heavy of a machine can you handle...ie, how many pounds of dead weight iron can you man-handle into your basement...by yourself? What do you want to make? Of what material? How heavy? Of what size? = size and stroke of machine...and horsepower. How sophisticated of a shaper: Spartan = Lewis; rugged = Lewis or Logan; old metal = Rhodes; phenolic bull wheel = Atlas/Craftsman or South Bend; from Chicago = Sheldon, Logan, AMMCO; etc.; etc; etc; etc.... Have you downloaded and/or looked at ALL of the info in "Files", "Photos", AND ESPECIALLY "Links" here? (That's why we posted it there.) When you have...what are your questions AFTER you have? If you haven't, why haven't you???? When will you???? Have you read ALL of our messages posted here? If you haven't, why haven't you???? When will you???? When you have done and figured out ALL of the above...you'll be personally amazed at how much you know...and you will have found it out by yourself. Then, knowledgible of ALL of this background information, you'll be able to then ask the questions that you're still not quite sure of. This is the way that most of us have come to knowing...knowing about shapers: it is the quickest and easiest way, although one has to do the downloading, the reading, and the learning on one's own: but the info is there. There is an olde Chinese proverb: "Feed a starving man and you will feed him all his life; teach a starving man how to fish and he'll learn how to feed himself." Good Fishing!!! Art (Houston) Have you read ALL of our messages...from beginning to end? ------- Date: Sat, 4 Jan 2003 21:09:12 -0500 From: "Dave Audette" Subject: Re: Re: Which shaper is the best to Buy???? The best shaper to buy is really a function of what shapers are available. Since nobody makes them anymore your choices are pretty much limited to the ones that someone else decides to sell. There really is no *best* shaper, they all work in pretty much the same fashion. Some have better features than others but that's about it. The 6"-10" shapers are the most popular for home shop use and usually the most expensive, anything larger than that and it's a buyers market. Other than checking local connections you're pretty much left with Ebay and used machinery dealers. The best shaper is most likely going to be the one that's available If you have time then do some research on the various kinds and then just wait until you run across exactly the machine you want, unfortunately this can be a very long wait. Dave Worcester, Mass www.broncosaurus.net ------- Date: Mon, 06 Jan 2003 18:02:22 -0000 From: "Art Volz " Subject: Re: Which shaper is the best to Buy???? "xeno3579 <"xeno3579x~xxc...>" wrote: >Hi, Mr."Mb-A": I was wondering when someone would find the errors that I purposely planted into the text of my reply message. These were "subliminal" reading understanding and comprehension questions...to see who had really READ the "Metal_Shaper" messages and archives. These particular "associated" messages must have got lost in the "readings". I guess you could boil it all down to being able to have access to all of the "answers"...but, still, not being able to ask the right "question(s)", for it is in the formatting of the design of SPECIFIC questions that the "answers" can be properly combined and understood. It's the QUESTIONS, NOT the ANSWERS. The "quiz question" about the phenolic gears, that you "caught", can be read at the prior posted multi-message discussion of phenolic laminated bull gears, and how to repair them when they start to loose teeth. (Use "search" to find--you'll see I authored several of these messages...and was directly in the midst of the "fray".) Both AMMCO and South Bend used these phenolic laminated types of bull gears--the Atlas/Craftsman shaper, however, had a conventional ferrous-metal bull gear, but it has always been plagued with an overly complicated and complex design and one which uses many zinc-alloy parts that are prone to failure, under loads lower than CI or steel parts would fail, and which have a tendency also to develop terminal zinc-cancer (inter-granualar corrosion). Another of the quiz questions was the reference to the Rhodes shaper as being "old iron". The answer to that is both "yes" and "no" as the Rhodes small shaper line started at least as early as 1903 (= old iron), but were made up until 1957 (= NEW iron). (Search messages for "Rhodes" to find the serial number list that I previously posted. Also search for "Cope".) Yet another quiz "question" was to figure out that the 3 most common small shapers in the U.S.A were the AMMCO, the South Bend, and the Atlas/Craftsman, all for which no further repair service or parts are provided by the OEM, and that they had parts problems--you'd have to read and piece together a bunch of messages and other archival material to arrive at this determination. Another "quiz question", that was only alluded to, could take the form of: "Is the WAVENEY shaper really the best buy?". (Huh?? What??) Yet another would be: what are the ram strokes of the "best buy" (most common) small shapers? I've seen mentioned 7-inch, 8-inch, 10-inch as being common -- I have yet to see a "9-inch". Maybe I haven't been as attentive in my "readings" either. The last "answer" was about fishing. I was fortunate to have studied two oriental languages (Vietnamese and Thai) at the Defense Language Institute's schools on both the West Coast (Monterey) and East Coast (D.C.); both of these languages share many linguistic and cultural structural similarities with the Chinese. Chinese is a most remarkably rich character-based (non-alphabetic non-phonetic) written language which represents, in writing, many of the otherwise different tongues of the various Chinese spoken languages (some of which are: Mandarin, Cantonese, and Chinese-Restaurant- International :-)). Although both Dan's and my "quotes" are content- wise the same, neither are direct translations from Chinese written characters: you can't do it. My "quote" is my common "vulgar" interpretation --Dan's is an elegant English construction which, no doubt, was contrived by the English language advanced degree professor who was the Editor-in-Chief of Dan's particular volume of "World Quotes". Thanx, Mr. Mb-A, for your "discovery"...and "good fishing" for all! Just remember: It's the QUESTION!!!! (Do you recall the story about the "answers" given by the blind Indian wisemen as they described the nature of an elephant?) Art (Lunch break time in Houston North: "What??? Grilled pachyderm (sp?) again???!!!???") ------- Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2003 16:07:00 -0500 From: "j.guenther" Subject: RE: South Bend Phenolic Bull Gear (RE: Which shaper is the best to Buy???) > From: Dave Audette [mailto:david.audettex~xxverizon.net] > Art, I can't speak about anyone else's but the bull gear on my 7" SB. > is metalI can't tell if it's cast or steel but it sure ain't plastic. > There's an "X" stamped on the side of the gear and magnets stick > to it just fine. I've read the thread in question but it still doesn't > explain the metal bull gear in my shaper. Dave, I am working on two 7" South Bend Shapers and one has a steel bull gear and the other has a Phenolic bull gear. I am not certain, but I think the metal one is 'shop made' but now that I hear that you have one of these, maybe it is and maybe it isn't. I do know that someone sometime made a new shank for the bull gear and did not do it properly. The problem has been fixed, and fortunately the fix does not show when the shaper is assembled. I do however need to put new bushings in the shaper frame for the shank since it was obviously way out of time and some damage was done by trying to feed the table during the forward stroke of the ram. The bushings were part of that damage. John Guenther 'Ye Olde Pen Maker' Sterling, Virginia ------- Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2003 16:50:01 -0500 From: "Dave Audette" Subject: Re: South Bend Phenolic Bull Gear (RE: Which shaper is the best to Buy???) John, Are there stampings of any sort on the gear ? I'm satisfied that mine is metal so I'm not taking it out so I can't see the backside or any of the stuff under the mounting ring for the sliding block assembly but I did spot a single "X" stamped on it. I have a friend with a 7" SB and I've asked him to take a peek at his and see what it's made of. I haven't tried calling Rose at Lebond yet to see if she can match shaper serial numbers as well as lathes but I would hope so. There are any number of sites that have documented the changes to the various SB lathes over the years but I've never seen similar information anywhere for the shapers. They seem to be the red headed stepchild of the South Bend family. Dave Worcester, Mass www.broncosaurus.net ------- Date: Mon, 06 Jan 2003 21:24:45 -0000 From: "astuch " Subject: South Bend shaper bull Gear Hi Everyone Last month I had for a short time two South Bend shaper in my shop. One had a Cast iron bull gear and the other a phenolic bull gear. These were both factory gears. The south bend with phenolic gear didn't have the pressure lube system and had a different base casting. I have a one page shaper catalog from South Bend that lists the phenolic gear. I'll try and post this when I find it. Andy ------- Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2003 17:27:27 -0500 From: "Dave Audette" Subject: Re: South Bend shaper bull Gear Andy, Ok, that makes sense. I had been wondering if all SB's had the oil pump and if that would be related to the bull gear issue. My copy of "how to run a shaper" is dated "Edition 3, 1954" and it discusses the oiling system. I don't know when they started making the shapers but I could imagine early models with phenolic gears and no oiling system. Would sure be nice to find a decent history of the SB shaper somewhere. Dave Worcester, Mass www.broncosaurus.net ------- Date: Tue, 07 Jan 2003 03:45:13 -0000 From: "Art Volz " Subject: Re: South Bend Shaper Bull Gears & Serial Numbers Andy & South Bend'ers all: If you have a SB-7 please post its serial number and what type of bull gear it has to "Messages". I'll "capture" the data as it comes in and convert it into a composite file. I do NOT have a SB-7 serial number list, but I do have: "NOTE: The second and third digits of the Serial Number represent the year of manufacture. EXAMPLE: SH3801 was manufactured in 1980." Maybe we can determine some point of demarcation for the type bull wheels used to include the limits on the range of manufacture. Art (Houston) ------- Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2003 03:52:47 -0000 From: "dreilanderecht" Subject: Ideal Shaper features Hi All, I guess few of us are in the position of selecting a shaper by looking at the specifications and deciding which of a range of machines best suits our needs. But I have been having a bit of fun thinking about the features my ideal shaper would have, based partly on the differences between the three I have. I have not included solid accurate construction of the machine as a feature, although of course that is a basic essential. Anyway, comments on these and additional suggestions would be welcome. They are not in any sort of priority order. Universal table. Able to revolve through 360 degrees on circular T slot. Only one of mine has a universal table and I have never used it in anger but I still think it is a cool idea. Slotted style of front support foot so table can be properly supported when at an angle. If the table on my Alba 1A is angled, so is the support leg. Doesn't seem ideal to me. Different T slot arrangements on each side, including V in both directions for holding rounds, with an adjacent T slot either side. Unlike one of mine which has a blank side with a V slot. How do you hold the shaft in the V? Since the universal feature lets us bring any part of the table to the top, let's make use of this by having different slot arrangements that may suit different jobs better. Eg T slots long ways, T slots across, and then V slots in either direction, with the T slots either side of them. Table raising crank with bevel gears to side. Just nicer than having to reach underneath. Fine feed using a pair of gears and a link to eliminate need for adjusting rod length. The link keeps the distance from the driven gear to the crossfeed screw constant when table height is adjusted. My Alba 4S has this, it is just a nice little convenience. OK, it wouldn't take long to adjust the rod length. Ram stroke adjustment through bevel gears inside and shaft through bull gear shaft. Only my Alba 4S has this, it is nicer than reaching in through the door hole like the other two require. The Ammco is Ok since access is good but the Alba 1A makes it very hard to set short strokes. Helical bull gear and pinion. Quieter than straight cut, and theoretically a smoother drive. Power down feed with limit trip. I dunno that I really have much need for this, but why not. I would want to be able to set a limit trip to avoid falling asleep and carving away the table.... Built in limit switches on table travel. This is handy for those planing flat jobs, the machine turns itself off at the end of the cut. Only implemented on one so far, must do the others! Long ram and adjustment slot, able to do short work at front end of table. The Alba 1A is a bit mean in the range of ram position adjustment which can be awkward for some setups. The adjustment slot length should be about the same as the stroke of the machine. One handle size fits all adjustments: ram position and stroke, lock for downfeed tilt, crossfeed, table height, and vice. Otherwise you always pick up the wrong one first. Multi speed gearbox. Well, changing belts is OK on a small machine. A creep gear (extra slow) is handy on a big machine, especially if you don't have jog due to lack of three phase power. Claspnut on crossfeed to permit quick return. Haven't actually seen this, just wonder if it could be handy for those jobs where you only want to cut in one direction and would like to get back to the start quick. You would need a rack or such, might not be worth the trouble. Able to take shaft through under ram. Again I have never actually done this but can see the utility for when you want a keyway in the middle of a shaft. Add ons Swivelling vice. A non swivelling vice will do *almost* all you want.... Between centres attachment with dividing plates and worm. Now this lets you do some really tricky stuff! Rotary table with worm and dividing plates. Another way of doing some impossible things. Any other features we really must have??? regards John ------- Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2003 19:23:46 +0000 From: mariol.vitalex~xxatt.net Subject: Re: small shaper > Hello group,what is the smallest and cheapest shaper a person could > get for a shop?I am trying to get some ideas of what to expect.I > could try and build one but I don't think my skill is up to that > level yet.Thanks and God Bless to all. Bill C. Bill, I'm afraid, in this game, smallest and cheapest are at opposite ends of the spectrum. The cheapest is usually the biggest (no one can afford to move it and/or has a place to put it. The smallest is usually the most expensive. (easy to move, store, repair, hide from your significant other!?!?) Like everything in life, you have to find the trade-off that best meets your needs/desires/resources. Watching e-bay will give you an idea of what to expect. Good luck, Mario ------- Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2003 20:31:33 -0000 From: "dreilanderecht" Subject: Re: small shaper As Mario has said, the smallest and the cheapest are not going to necessarily be the same thing. The smallest commonly available would be the six or seven inch machines, which are a very handy machine for a Model Engineer, but since they are almost always single phase and are easy to transport and find room for, are also going to fetch a good price. Bigger machines with three phase power are harder to move and take some messing around to arrange power, so go for a relatively cheaper price. One argument for going for a good big one is that you can then use it to make a smaller one if you want to, while it is much harder to use a small one to make a big one. People worry about not having three phase power, but it is not that much of a problem with a bit of ingenuity. Provided of course you are comfortable messing around with electricity. Another factor in choosing a machine is likely to be availability, especially for the bigger stuff where you won't want to ship it very far. It's better to grab what becomes available than to wait for your ideal machine, which may not show up. regards John ------- Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 01:57:26 -0000 From: "Bill Collins" Subject: Re: small shaper Hello group, well I have decided to try and build the little Gingery Shaper since most of the stuff I will be working on is small scale anyhow. I now have a furnace to melt the aluminum in to make the castings for the shaper. Just have to learn to cast now instead of pouring ingots. Thanks for everyones help. Much appreciated. Thanks and God Bless. Bill C. ------- Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 03:03:26 -0000 From: "dreilanderecht" Subject: Re: small shaper Hi Bill, I have read some of the Gingery books, although I have never built anything from them. I have to admit to a great deal of admiration for anyone who does the job the whole way as per the book, but would suggest that if you can possibly "cheat" by farming the odd bit out to someone else, go for it. Scraping a lathe bed by hand is a wonderful achievement, but a surface grinder will also do a good job, a lot faster. It does depend of course on how you are placed with regard to finding cooperative people with the right equipment. However, people are often very helpful. There was some discussion here a day or two back about alloys...I haven't cast any myself, but gave a whole lot of ex computer alloy to a guy who does a few years back. This included large disk drive housings and also some stuff from a big high speed printer. He was very happy with the quality of castings he was able to make from it. So it might be worth digging out a source of ex computer stuff. Of course, the newer the device is, the less alloy you get with it.... regards John ------- Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 03:26:47 -0000 From: "Bill Collins" Subject: Re: small shaper Hello John. Well since I have the book anyway thanks to a gentleman that sent me the Charcoal Foundry and The Shaper book, I figure I may as well go for it.I built the foundry about two months ago and I'm well pleased with it. I'm sure I may take a few short cuts or not. A lot of it depends on available materials. I have only cast ingots from aluminum previously melted and have used most of it up for other projects. So making molds and then casting the parts is going to be a challenge for me. Now I have to start gathering up materials for this project. I probably have some or most of the stock materials needed but have to get the aluminum to melt for the major castings. This is probably the cheapest route I could go. If I could afford it I would just buy a shaper but I won't get into that. I think two or three old automatic transmissions should be enough aluminum source for the shaper project. Well thanks everybody for all of your ideas and support. Thanks and may your God always be with you. Bill C. ------- Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 15:53:32 -0000 From: "lkasdorf" Subject: How does a planer work? (forgive my ignorance) I have an Atlas shaper, and understand these machines well. But planers are another story. I know next to nothing about them. >From the few pictures I've seen, there is a clapper box, and a powered feed that moves the clapper left and right, but I can't figure out if the table moves, or the frame holding the clapper moves. I suspect that the table moves, but what a lot of shop space a planer with a 40' table would take up, if the table moves! Was the purpose of these to handle longer pieces than a shaper could? It looks like some shapers can surface stock many feet in length. Thanks- Lynn Kasdorf ------- Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 12:12:13 -0400 From: "Dave Audette" Subject: Re: How does a planer work? (forgive my ignorance) Lynn, Planers work just the opposite of shapers but they pretty much cut the same and use the same tooling. Instead of having a ram move the tool back & forth across the top of the work, the tool remains stationary and the table runs the work back & forth under the tool but the cutting in the same fashion. They're neat machines and a lot of us here would love to stumble across one but unfortunately there weren't too many benchtop planers made Dave Worcester, Mass www.broncosaurus.net ------- Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 15:43:57 -0400 From: "Rigrac" Subject: Re: How does a planer work? (forgive my ignorance) Lynn: Same principal as a shaper but table is in motion. Ours at work has a 50 foot table and features a left and right side boxes on the horizontal rail as well as left and right side heads mounted on the vertical rails of each side at table level and a milling head mounted in the center of the horizontal rail. Milling head can swing 45 degrees to left and right and works off its own feed screw independent of clapper box heads. Clapper box heads also feature independent feed screws so you could actually cut in opposite directions with both heads. VERY versatile machine!! Ron ------- Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 22:45:19 -0000 From: "dreilanderecht" Subject: Re: How does a planer work? A good source for information about planers in the 19th century is "Modern Machine Shop Practice". Rose, Joshua Modern Machine Shop Practice. New York: C. Scribner's Sons, 1887-88 So where are you going to get a copy, I hear you say. Not to worry, the whole thing, both volumes, is available as a download from the good folks at Michigan State University. http://digital.lib.msu.edu/onlinecolls/collection.cfm?CID=10 There are a few other interesting books there too. There were bench planers, although I only ever remember seeing mention of one amateur owning one, somewhere in the "Model Engineer". So I guess it is now up to us to make our own. Better finish my launch engine first! I don't think that the planer is really quite as versatile as the shaper, it is a little more specialised towards long jobs and flat surfaces. That does not mean that you cannot do some other interesting things, for instance the special vice for doing curves that features in MMSP. regards John ------- Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 23:11:08 +0000 From: mariol.vitalex~xxatt.net Subject: Re: Re: How does a planer work? " it is a little more specialised towards long jobs and flat surfaces." John, this is true, however some planers were/are equipped with hydraulic followers (a la Hydrotel) to follow a template mounted adjacent to the parts being cut, and therefore can cut profiled surfaces. While it may not be the most cost effective for production, I have seen aircraft wing spar mold line surfaces machined that way...two at a time. Mario ------- Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 19:26:59 -0400 From: "Dave Audette" Subject: Re: Re: How does a planer work? I downloaded both volumes awhile back and then took the disk to a local Kinko's and had it printed out and bound. It really wasn't that expensive and I've found that having a printed copy to thumb through. The illustrations are magnificent and the book is just a wealth of information. For me at least I've found that the old (pre-1945) textbooks and shop manuals have much more relevance to me as a home machinist than modern texts do. Dave Worcester, Mass www.broncosaurus.net ------- Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 23:57:00 -0000 From: "dreilanderecht" Subject: Re: How does a planer work? That is why I covered myself by saying " a little more", I am actually sure that you could pretty well do anything on a planer that you could do on a shaper, although it might be a bit more awkward with some things that are quite easy on a shaper. Conversely of course, anything that is too long for a shaper is going to be pretty awkward, Although my 4S has the provision for passing a long shaft through under the ram so you can cut a keyway anywhere along the length. (on any length of shaft that will fit in the shop.) Certainly the milling head attachment mentioned earlier makes a planer more versatile too, but then is that still a planer or is it a long bed mill? I do find some of the machines in MMSP interesting, for instance the shaper with two tables and a ram that traverses, and the planer where you can move one of the legs out to fit a job wider than the table. I would guess that the aircraft industry is one where you would be most likely to find otherwise uneconomic things being done. I remember reading about panels of skin with internal reainforcing ribs being milled out of thick slabs of alloy bar. This let them avoid rivets so the outside was smooth and also avoids little areas for corrosion to start in the corners. A bit expensive for the mass market! regards John ------- Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 00:13:34 +0000 From: mariol.vitalex~xxatt.net Subject: Re: Re: How does a planer work? John, "I would guess that the aircraft industry is one where you would be most likely to find otherwise uneconomic things being done.[SNIP]" Now THERE is an understatement! That's a common construction technique for aircraft wings...It's not so much to keep the mold line smooth. It does save a lot of labor cost, not having to fabricate the separate ribs, drilling thousands of holes and installing thousands of fasteners to attach the ribs to the inside of the skin, it is also lighter, AND it's not insignificant that inside those wing skins there's generally hundreds of gallons of JP-4 jet fuel! It makes for a lot less leaks!?!? If you think it's bad making alumium wing skins that way, you would really shudder if you saw them making them from TITANIUM! You're right John, a bit expensive for the mass market............... Mario ------- Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 23:38:12 -0500 From: "Harry" Subject: Planer If any of you have the space, you might consider getting an old planer, while they last. For a few dollars a grinder can be mounted in place of the tool post. Most of the beds ride on precision ball bearings, the finish is smooth as glass. We used one for years to grind lathe ways, until the boss decide it took up too much space. Around here, it is hard to find anyone that will regrind ways anymore. Just a thought. Harry ------- Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 21:42:06 -0500 From: Doug Chartier Subject: 16" G&E shaper I may have talked myself into getting into the shaper business. Found a 16" G&E with vise and at least one tool holder. It looks to be in pretty good condition. A quick look only, but the paint appears original and is in very good condition. No rust visible anywhere. Vise didn't have a handle, but it did swivel and appeared to be in good condition. I can go back tomorrow with a magnifying glass. And that's the good part. It's about 15 miles away and can be loaded on my trailer at no charge. The seller is aware that shapers have little retail value, but did not quote a price today. He will tomorrow. I know about what the market is on these things - not much! But my question to this forum is: Is there anything about shapers generally and the G&E 16 in particularly that I should examine more closely. I can pretty well tell when something is frozen, broken or just looks funny, but are there particular areas or parts that are indicators of possible overall condition? The forward/reverse gears on Logan lathes come to mind. Those things are often misused and often show worn or broken teeth due to improper engagement. Bed wear up close to the chuck on any lathe is another example. What do I need to look at on the shaper? Thanks, Doug Chartier Houston ------- Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 15:20:05 +1200 From: Tom Subject: Re: 16" G&E shaper > >Valuewise perhaps this [EBAY] one may set the market price: > >Take note, it is a toolroom model..Tom > Yep, already found that one. What is a tool room model??? I know what it > generally means in relation to lathes etc, but a shaper?? And is that an > awful paint job or not? Looks like they had some paint left over from > painting a baby's room, or the entry way into a mental institution. :-) > Thanks for the input. Doug At one stage G & E built their Toolroom shapers lighter than standard models, supposing that toolrooms used the machine in a lighter capacity or with more finesse? At the current price, I find the paint job not an issue.. Tom ------- Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 15:45:28 +1200 From: Tom Subject: Re: 16" G&E shaper jrw wrote: > A fancy paint job usually means the seller is covering > up many years of neglect and other abuse. Difficult to use paint to cover abuse on a shaper... ------- Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 22:49:50 -0500 From: jrw Subject: Re: 16" G&E shaper Tom: The fancy paint job distracts the would be buyer so they do not see obvious problems. Open the door and check the crank assembly and links for repairs, the clapper box for damage due to hitting the vise or work. Close the vise with a light pressure and see if the jaws are parallel and the housing is not warped. Check the wrench for the vise for hammer marks. I have yet to see a vise handle/wrench without hammer marks and even brazed handles. The paint job covers the repair. JRW ------- Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 20:40:45 -0700 (PDT) From: jlewis6 Subject: Re: 16 Doug, the G&E's have an odd-ball vise handle. Take a good look at the hexagonal end of the vise screw - it's tapered! An ordinary wrench will not fit well. These vise handle's are hard to find (I've beeen hunting most of a year). Make sure all the other cranks are with the shaper. I'm not trying to talk you out of buying the shaper because the cranks/handles are missing. I would however wait till the seller has quoted a price and then use the missing pieces to negotiate a lower price. All this stuff can be made. I've got my buddy's 24" G&E handles right now and am making drawings. Let me know if you want copies (it will be at least a week before I'm through). I've also got access to a G& E manual if you don't get one with the machine. Wait till a price has been quoted before you ask about the manual too. Best regards Jon Lewis ------- Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 22:57:15 -0500 From: "Ray Ethridge" Subject: Re: 16" G&E shaper Doug, A universal table model is also sometimes referred to as a toolroom model. This would be a pretty desireable feature if it had it in my opinion. On the G&E you can rotate the table on an axis parallel to the travel of the ram. The other axis is handled by the tilting vise on the G&E, note the vise in the pic for the one on Ebay. For pricing reference, I passed up a 16" G&E Universal table model still with the original tilting vise late last year at auction in Houston. It went for around $600 best I can recall, and that is only because I drove the price up before I gave up. It certainly looked like a very useful shaper, I had second-highest bidder's remorse for quite awhile after the auction. Ray Ethridge ------- Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 22:55:28 -0500 From: jrw Subject: Re: 16 Doug: When you check on scrap prices be sure you denote heavy cast iron and not steel scrap. The scrap dealers buy based on the dollars per ton (long ton of 2200 pounds) and if you buy they sell based on a 2000 pound ton. Joe W ------- Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2003 20:11:54 -0000 From: "dreilanderecht" Subject: Re: New to shapers - which one to get? Probably this is the best site for information about shapers! There is some info at www.lathes.co.uk This is mostly on British machines. Kay Fisher has a shaper site, but he just moved providers recently and I don't have the new URL here. There is the "bird in the hand" theory...since you will be buying second hand, it is likely to be a matter of grabbing the first one that comes along that is something like, rather than carefully comparison shopping and then making a choice. Still, it does pay to have some idea of the sort of thing you are looking for, and also of what would be a reasonable price for it. I would tend to roughly divide shapers into three groups: Up to ten inch stroke. These machines are mostly single phase, are easy to move and are a useful size for many home projects, especially model engineering. Because of this they are also quite popular and so the price tends to reflect this. 10 to 18 inches stroke. These machines are getting a bit bigger but mostly don't weigh more than could be towed on a flat deck trailer as used to transport cars. They are more likely to require three phase power than the smaller machines, and although this is not an insuperable problem it is worth bearing in mind. They will take more space in your workshop, but then will also accomodate bigger jobs. Depending which end of the range, you may find that such machines are better value for money than the smaller ones, provided you can move and accomodate them 18 inch and up. These start to get really serious, they are likely to weigh more than it is easy for the amateur to move, which makes getting it home potentially more expensive, quite possibly more than the price of the machine itself. They will almost certainly need three phase power, which is not too bad in itself, but in the larger sizes may require more than can conveniently be obtained by a phase converter from single phase. On the other hand, because neither industry nor other amateurs are especially interested, you may be able to get one at a bargain price, and if you can feed and house it that makes them a great deal. Obviously this classification is a bit subjective, I have an 18 inch machine that would fall into the top end of the second group, while I recently saw another 18" that would very definitely fall into the third group, since it would weigh twice as much, and had a 7.5 HP three phase motor instead of the 3hp that mine has. Makes quite a difference! regards John ------- Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2003 06:40:12 -0700 From: "Kay R. Fisher" Subject: RE: Shaper FAQ web site True - I have moved from Massachusetts to Arizona. The new web site addresses are: http://home.att.net/~kayfisher/shaper_faq.html http://home.att.net/~kayfisher/shaper_columns.html Respectfully, Kay R. Fisher ------- Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2003 20:03:35 -0400 From: "R. Farris" Subject: Re: Re: New to shapers - which one to get? Dave, learning first is the right way to go. Worked for me. Learned that a small 7 inch shaper would do almost all I would ever need. I put out the word in the Toledo area and had a bite from a chap who was brokering used machine tools out of a small warehouse. Then I was following a thread in a forum and answered it. Signed my name and also listed the city - then another chap contacted me and is living only about 10 miles north of me. I answered back and listed my meager stable of shop tools and told him of the pending shaper deal. He said he had an atlas 7b he was willing to part with and the rest is history. Moral of the story is: when you finish your learning - let the forums know of your plans and list your location. You might get lucky and not need to go to e-bay route. I even got a couple of lessons on shaper lubrication and setup. I haven't made any metal chips yet, but I have squared up a piece of 4x4x1 hard plastic. (a couple of times). Plastic chips aren't as hot as steel. By the way the shop sounds like a winner. Good luck on your shop. Dick Farris Toledo, Ohio ------- Date: Sun, 13 Jul 2003 02:49:35 -0000 From: "Joe Guidry" Subject: Re: New to shapers - which one to get? Dave, I have the two small ones the Southbend and the Atlas both 7", if I had to keep one, I would be the Atlas, I love the Southbend, but the Atlas is esaier to change the stroke of the ram with the Atla on and also change to position, easier to rotate the machine to check the postion before cutting, love them both not to part with either, good luck, Joe Guidry ------- Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2003 11:21:57 -0500 From: "Ray Ethridge" Subject: Re: Re: New to shapers - which one to get? > Joe, I actually think I saw one of these monsters on eBay. I couldn't > believe the size of the vise for that 24" shaper. It was an amazing > machine. I only have a small shop (~12'x30') and I have a shop set > up for about a 6-7" cube. I have a friend who has a 12" Sheldon - > that's a nice shaper! That shaper would fit in my shop but my other > buddy has a 14" shaper that is entirely too large of foot print. I > need a "smallish" foot print - max of about 4'x4' working area. > What shaper(s) would you recommend considering the size of my > machinery and the available foot print? As it turns out your shop has the same square footage as mine (15x24) and I have a 24" Rockford hydraulic shaper, a 16x54 American Pacemaker, a full size vertical mill, a large bandsaw and a Rockwell lathe as well as a lot of peripheral equipment. I also have a 12 inch Sheldon shaper that I moved out to make room for the Rockford. The Rockford occupies essentially the same wall space that the Sheldon did, it just projects into the walkway a bit more. OK, more than a bit more, but it still fits in the same basic area as the Sheldon and there is still sufficient room around the shaper to work. After fitting a 24 inch Rockford where the Sheldon was I find it curious that you think the size difference between a Sheldon and a 14 inch shaper would be significant. I am not sure what you mean by the 6-7" cube, but one of the keys is to have the machines share the "operator" area for a home shop. My mill, my two lathes and my bandsaw all open to the same basic area for operating them. If there were more people in the shop this of course would not work, bur for a one man shop I think there is a great space saving by running multiple machines from the same area. Ray Ethridge ------- Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2003 15:23:17 -0700 From: "larry g" Subject: Re: Re: New to shapers - which one to get? The two shapers Dave is comparing are my Sheldon and a 14" Steptoe which is owned by a friend. The Sheldon shaping machine sits on top of the drive mechanism, and the Steptoe has a drive to the back and side of the shaping head thereby requiring 1.5 to 2X the floor space. ------- Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2003 17:53:01 -0500 From: "Ray Ethridge" Subject: Re: Re: New to shapers - which one to get? OK, I can see how that might look a little larger. I was thinking more along the lines of a G&E 14, they are a little longer than my Sheldon but certainly not too long for a shop the size of his. The Rockford hydraulic has the drive built into the base sort of like the Sheldon so it is pretty compact for a 24 incher. Had I not found the Rockford I would have traded the Sheldon for a toolroom G&E in a heartbeat! Ray Ethridge ------- Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2003 23:06:29 -0000 From: "Peter Verbree" Subject: Re: New to shapers - which one to get? Dave: Have you considered a machine the size of a 10" Alba or Elliott? I have a 10" Alba that I think highly of. It fits in a space of perhaps 2x3, has the drive under it and is a very substantial machine overall. I will admit that its not a 14" G&E toolroom by any means but it is certianly much more capable than the Atlas I previously had. Look at my web page to see some pictures of it. The Elliott is (as far as I know) a later development of the same machine. http://www.angelfire.com/sc3/shapeaholic/index.html Cheers Pete ------- Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2003 03:02:48 -0000 From: "dpidwerb66" Subject: Re: New to shapers - which one to get? Ray, Larry G, et.al. Thanks for the replies. As far as the shop size goes, I have to admit that I haven't seen you shapers in person. I'm also allocating future space for a larger lathe (something like a 13"x30" between centers) and a BridgePort sized mill. The addition of these two machines will really fill my shop space, consequently, I would prefer an actual floor space of a shaper to be no larger than ~ 2'x4' which will allow me to have some operator space off to the side and front. What I'm putting together right now is a shop that is capable of handling material that can fit in an ~ 7" cube. I have a 9" lathe, the verticle mill has a maximum spindle to table spacing of about 10", the horizontal mill has a maximum table to arbor spacing of about 9", etc. I don't necessarily want to buy a machine that I will have to sell to make room for future tools, etc. I just want to plan out a little in advance. I would be interested in the right shaper in the near future, but I'm not in any rush. I have more than enough to keep me busy just getting my existing set of equipment operational and my shop finished. Thanks for all of the replies. Dave ------- Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2003 06:00:11 -0000 From: "dreilanderecht" Subject: Re: New to shapers - which one to get? Seems to me that a ten inch shaper with the motor and drive underneath rather than hung off the back would fit the bill quite well. As Pete mentioned, the Alba 1A fits this description. The base is 2 feet 8 and a half by 1 foot seven. You need a little space behind that so that the ram does not attempt to modify the wall behind, and of course some space in front and on the control side. One thing to bear in mind in a crowded shop is that a shaper is a machine that can reasonably work semi-unattended while you do something else - but you don't want to step backwards into the ram while your mind is on something else. The guy I bought my Alba 1A from had another smaller machine with a screen that could be set up around the table while it was working, just some steel rods and canvas that attached down below on the bench somehow. This made it much less likely that you would back into it while doing something else, and also confined the hot chips quite well. I know the old timers used to say that a seven inch shaper would machine a seven inch cube: This might be OK in theory but as you will probably know, it is rarely possible to use any machine to the maximum dimensions simultaneously, and that maximum sized cube is an awkward thing to attach...the vice won't usually take it! So a ten inch shaper would in fact be reasonably comfortable with your seven inch cube. The Alba 1A can just manage a flat area about 10" by 11", since the stroke can be set just over the nominal, but would hardly manage the hypothetical 10 inch cube unless you took the universal table off and bolted the job directly to the traversing slide. Which can be done, but I have never needed to and now that I have the 18 inch model as well, I am never likely to. So it sounds like a shaper in the 10 to 14 range would do what you want, provided you can get one with the drive neatly tucked underneath. Well, there is more than one brand that would do, I guess you will just have to be patient and see what comes up! Don't be put off if a three phase one comes up...My 1A was originally three phase but there is room underneath for the bigger equivalant single phase motor, or else there are other ways, and it makes a great argument for beating the price down. regards John ------- Date: Mon, 08 Sep 2003 14:01:10 -0000 From: "JimSr" Subject: Discussion of 7" Atlas, Logan & South Bend Shapers I don't want to start any arguments but would like to hear some discussion on these 7" or 8" Shapers. I would like to know the pros and cons and the capabilities of each. What I am looking for is your expertise if you own one or have owned one or the other or all of them or even if you just have some opinions of them. I have been looking for a excellent 12" or 14" shaper somewhere in my neck of the woods (Near Portland, OR) but haven't been successful so far so I may purchase one of these smaller shapers and then continue looking for the larger shaper of my dreams. It is likely that I would keep the smaller shaper once purchased so I want what would be best for me and your input in this discussion can help me make the decision of which shaper that will be. So any help you can give me by participating in this discussion will be very much appreciated. Thanks. Jim ------- Date: Mon, 08 Sep 2003 17:29:33 -0000 From: "don_kinzer" Subject: Re: Discussion of 7" Atlas, Logan & South Bend Shapers I have an Atlas 7", a South Bend 7", and a Brodhead-Garrett 8" (same as the Logan 8"). I've used the Atlas a fair amount, the B-G a little and the SB not at all yet. With that in mind, I have these observations: The table on the SB is the smallest of the bunch: 5" wide x 6.25" deep by 5.5" high. In contrast, the Atlas table is 6" x 7" x 6.5" and the B-G's is 8" x 7.5" x 7". The toolpost is most stout on the Atlas, about 1" in diameter with a clapper measuring 2.75"x1.75"x1". The B-G toolpost is smaller (3/4") but could be replaced by a 1" toolpost if the clapper (3"x1.75"x3/4") were re-worked. The SB toolpost is 7/8" in diameter but its clapper is the smallest at 2.25"x1.5"x7/8". The stroke length adjustment is the easiest/coolest on the Atlas, effected by loosening a locking knob, turning a square shaft, and re- locking. This is accomplished from the right side of the machine where most of the other controls are located. Both the SB and B-G are adjusted via the access panel on the left side by positioning the sliding block on the driving wheel. The B-G has a continuously variable speed control which can be adjusted when running - very handy. Both the Atlas and SB use step pulleys for speed changes. The SB has an automatic oiler (not on earlier models). This would be most useful in a heavy use environment. Don Kinzer ------- Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2003 16:14:49 EDT From: Wkuehselx~xxaol.com Subject: Re: Discussion of 7" Atlas, Logan & South Bend Shapers I have a SB 7" Shaper and I am very happy with its performance. It's capability is quite satisfactory for my model engineering and other work. I have spoken to machinery dealers who feel it is a better machine then the Atlas. That is that the quality is better and the mechanical mechanisms are of a more straight forward design and more robust. I was shown some examples of the foregoing in a side by side comparison of both machines. Unfortunately, this was several years ago and I can't recall the particulars. My overall opinion is that South Bend machines in general are better then Atlas. Bill Kuehsel Cold Spring, NY -------------------------------- Date: Mon, 08 Sep 2003 20:42:47 -0000 From: "al_messer" Subject: Re: Discussion of 7" Atlas, Logan & South Bend Shapers I owned and operated an Atlas for about 16 years and have owned and operated a South Bend for about 8 months. I wish I had the Atlas back!! The Atlas is much more robust that the S-B, which seems more like a "model" of a machine tool rather than actually a machine tool. The fact that it has flat ways makes no difference at all as many English lathes and machine tools have had flat ways for years and have turned out some outstanding precise work. Al Messer ------- Date: Mon, 08 Sep 2003 23:12:58 -0000 From: "dreilanderecht" Subject: Re: Discussion of 7" Atlas, Logan & South Bend Shapers Any particular reason why the Ammco is left out of the discussion? I can't really compare to the other brands, not having used them, but they are a good machine in that size range. The stroke adjustment is by opening the left side, so not as sophisticated as some of the others in that area. My main criticism from a design point of view is that the Ammco does not provide locknuts on the gibb adjusting screws. While this saves time on adjustments, it also means they need checking a lot more often! There is no easy way to add them since the holes are tapped into a curved surface which would need spot facing. regards John ------- Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2003 17:09:34 -0700 From: "larry g" Subject: Re: Re: Discussion of 7" Atlas, Logan & South Bend Shapers John In regards to the Ammco locking the gib screws. They make set screws with a plastic, nylon?, plug in it for locking purposes. Have you tried using those? I remember the loosening problem on the Ammco I had and never got around to putting in the locking setscrews. lg no neat sig line ------- Date: Tue, 09 Sep 2003 00:23:49 -0000 From: "al_messer" Subject: Re: Discussion of 7" Atlas, Logan & South Bend Shapers Ammco was left out 'cause I have never used one. As to the lack of lock nuts, use a radiused washer under the locknut with a longer lock screw, of course. Al Messer ------- Date: Mon, 08 Sep 2003 21:20:46 -0400 From: Peter T. Keillor III Subject: Re: Re: Discussion of 7" Atlas, Logan & South Bend Shapers I've had a Logan 8" for about a year, no other shaper experience. It's worked well for me. I have read it's noisier than some. The final chain drive also leaves very faint ripples in the finish. However, the chain is very robust and can be replaced easily compared to the gear driven units. The table is big and covered with T-slots on the top and right sides. It also has an excellent adjustable full width table support. Mine is a very early model of the 8". I changed the variable pulley lube to a grease zerk connected by a grease gun hose instead of the Gits oil cover on the end of a copper tube. The grease zerk is centered in the back of the enclosed stand. I also had to make a new pawl for the feed ratchet, because the original was too short and missing the knob (made the knob, too). Probably any of them will work fine. I'm keeping mine. Pete Keillor ------- Date: Tue, 09 Sep 2003 02:04:41 -0000 From: "tom kearns" Subject: Re: Discussion of 7" Atlas, Logan & South Bend Shapers I've had an Atlas, a Rodes and presently have a Shape-rite , all are good machines . The Rodes' weakness was the lack of a table support but otherwise I liked it. The Atlas is a good robust machine . The Shape-rite is strong and has the advantage of a universal table (which I have actually used once) A friend has the Alba 10inch, another good machine nice and massive, also with a universal table. My advice get one of each. tom ------- Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2003 06:29:32 -0000 From: "dreilanderecht" Subject: Re: Alba 1A shaper --- In Metal_Shapersx~xxyahoogroups.com, Seamus Ryan wrote: > I am new to this group, so I need advice from > you guys. I have to opportunity to buy an Alba 1A > shaper machine for very small money. Do any of you > have experience of this machine, does it have any > major flaws that I should look out for? Best regards, Seamus Ryan Top of the mornin' to ye Shamus! :) Several of us around the list have the Alba 1A, it is a good sound machine. The worst complaints I can make are that: 1/ It is a bit hard to set the stroke under about three inches. A crank ring spanner would help with this, it is just that the door opening is a bit small and gets in the way of a socket on the nut. 2/ The table screw is the opposite hand to both my other shapers. So it goes the wrong way if I don't think hard when putting a cut on for a vertical face. This should not be so much of a problem until your collection expands a little. As you will see, if this is the worst I can think of, after owning it a couple of years, there is not too much wrong with the basic design. A plus feature is that it has a tilting table...never used the feature yet, but nice to know I can. regards John in Auckland New Zealand ------- Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 06:56:22 -0800 (PST) From: Art Volz Subject: Cowells Shaper Feedback -- eBay.co.uk: I notified Giles F. of the info at Tony G's site in re the Cowell-6 manual shaper currently on eBay.co.uk and asked him (see difference in his photos VS Tony's) about the swivel capability of the clapper box. The Cowell at Tony's site has the type clapper box more often seen in USA machines, but Giles (see his reply below) says that his clapper box does have rotational capability too. His Cowell appears to be the same model as illustrated in Ian Bradley's "The Shaping Machine". Ian describes that clapper box: "The clapper box fitted to the Cowell shaping machine swivels to either side of the vertical....The tool slide to which the clapper box is attached is provided with an index collar and can itself be swiveled through 180 degrees." The Cowell shaper would make an ideal addition for one who already has a shop full of shapers...and needs just one more to squeeze in. As opposed to a Perfecto or my English traversing head shaper, it can be mounted flush to a bench top without having to have the table hang over the edge. Art (Houston) ------- Date: Sat, 1 Nov 2003 17:10:51 -0800 From: "larry g" Subject: Re: Shaper vs Planer From: "kc1fp" > Just got back from the machinery museum in Windsor VT, saw a lot of > interesting stuff but, I can't figure out what big advantage there is > between a shaper (sliding ram) and a planer (sliding table) is. I > have obviously never used either one. Can anyone explain what if any > advantage there is in one over the other? Thanks, John Perkins A planer basically moves the work piece past the cutter, and a shaper moves the cutter past the work piece. A planer bed can be measured in feet where as a shaper is usually in inches. Planer beds have been built in the 30'+ range.Try to imagine a shaper that would handle a 30' piece. So to answer your question its basically a size thing. Once you get in the 3'-4' range you make the jump from shaper to planer. lg no neat sig line ------- Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2003 01:51:54 -0000 From: "Greg B" Subject: Re: Atlas opinions wanted Only a handful of parts for the Atlas are still available from Clausing. In actuality, maybe twelve or thirteen part #'s are on my price list, and any other part I've asked them about they do not have. I'm not trying to disuade you from the Atlas, but I don't think there is much spare parts source for any of the small shapers made by anyone. So, Atlas, Ammco or whatever, the availability of spare parts is kind of a moot point. Get whatever you can, and make whatever you need. Greg Benedict ------- Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2003 14:10:44 -0000 From: "elperkins2003" Subject: Logan vs. South Bend Interested Readers: I have owned a 1962 vintage 7" SB bench top shaper for about 7 or 8 years and really love the little machine. This machine does not have the factory cabinet. Recently, I got a case of machinery itch and bought a Logan 7" cabinet shaper (old version of 1954 vintage). Although I like the SB, I am already beginning to see clear advantages with the Logan. I mention these for the benefit of those who may be trying to decide what machine to buy. I now have the two of them sitting side by side. Here is what I see in the Logan: -Box and table that is almost twice the size of the SBend. I have struggled in the past trying to clamp work to the small table on the SBend. -Taller column casting which translates to 3.5" more vertical travel. -About 1.5" more horizontal travel. -Factory vise on the Logan is way heavier and more robust. It is able to accomodate much larger workpieces. -Cast Iron base making the entire machine weigh about 700 lbs., versus the 300 lb. weight of the SBend. I thought the SBend was pretty heavily built, but the Logan is even more robust which translates to less vibration, heavier cuts, and less deflection. The SBend gave a nice surface finish, but the Logan is even better. I credit this to the weight factor and associated stability. -Infinitely variable speeds controlled by an adjustable drive with wheel adjustment on the front of the machine. To be honest, I do have one complaint about the Logan. The adjustment for the table height is a handwheel located directly beneath the table. This is a very inconvenient arrangement but one that can be worked around. This was remedied when the Logan came out with the new version 8" shaper which is identical to the 8" Broadhead Garrett. Any comments about the Logan 7" would certainly apply to the Logan 8" or BG 8". The SBend has a crank located on the side of the machine which is much more convenient and where it should be in the first place. In the files somewhere someone posted some information on the Logan 7" and said they were disappointed in the noise that came from the chain drive. I was concerned about this. The SBend is a very smooth and quiet running machine. While cleaning and adjusting the new (old) Logan, I made it a point to adjust the chain tension to avoid any slap, and to thoroughly grease the chain and bull gear (actually a "bull sprocket") teeth. The machine now runs as quiet as my SBend. Noise is not a problem on my machine. The great advantage in the SBend I think is in fact the lighter weight, for those who have to deal with basements and stairs where heavier machines cannot be installed. This was the situation when I got the SBend. I was able to get it down the steps and into the basement with an ordinary refridgerator dolly. I have since built a new home with a walk-out ground level access (thinking ahead) that allows me to accomodate larger machines. I also got a 2 ton engine hoist. I am very fond of both of these machines. I offer these notes to anyone who may be trying to decide right now. The Logan is a step up from the SBend even thought they are both specified as 7" shapers. The determining factors might be availability and what you can install in your particular shop situation. The ram on the Logan I have is lubricated with oil cups on each side. A simple system that seems to work just fine. The main crankshaft has zerk fittings on both sides for grease. All other lubrication points are oil cups or simple holes. The chain drive as I said, was well lubricated with grease, which seemed to make it very quiet in operation. Although the South Bend oil system is pretty nifty, I have seen a fair number of posts by people who have trouble trying to balance the pressure between both sides of the ram, or having excessive oil pressure squirting oil in a lot of places where you don't want it. I have mine working pretty good, but it took some tinkering. Maybe it's a little overkill. Apparently the folks at Logan didn't think it was necessary. It must have added cost to the machine when it was new. Machinery itch? It can be bad to live with. Ebay doesn't help! I think prior to the computer age, we probably had fewer machinery addicts. I think Ebay, web news groups, and our declining industrial base (cheap available machinery), are all probably contributing to an explosion in HSM's out there! Not a problem! Wives don't seem to comprehend this affliction though. Hope for understanding with her, and give her space of her own. Seems to work for me. ------- Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2004 22:52:54 -0000 From: "Hal Rhoades" Subject: Rhodes Slotter I stopped at an estate sale this week and ended up buying a bunch of tooling and a machine described as a slotter. I guess I more or less bought it on a whim since I knew very little about it when I bought it. I reviewed the files on the Rhodes shaper and slotter and now realize that this is what I bought. Does anyone here have direct experiance with these machines. How much work is it to convert them from verticle to horizontal and are they a reasonably usable machine? Hal ------- Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2004 23:10:52 -0600 From: Mike M Fendley Subject: Re: Rhodes Slotter Hal, if you got the vertical slotting attachment with the shaper, you got a great deal!! The slotting attachment for the Rhodes (or any shaper) is rare indeed. Shapers are a ton of fun, very versitile, and can be used to do things other basic machines can't do as well (or as cheaply). Cutting internal slots, keyways, splines, and gears come to mind. The vertical slotter makes your shaper just that much more useful. Cutting dovetails with a $1 tool bit as opposed to a $75 tool bit on a vertical mill makes for "cheap fun." Enjoy your new toy and ask questions of this group, they are full of it . . . in the best "shaper" sense of the phrase. I don't have a Rhodes, but I have had a South Bend, Atlas, and now own a Logan and a 10" no name universal shaper. Have fun makin' linear chips! Mike in Iowa ------- Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2004 17:55:04 -0600 From: Mike M Fendley Subject: Re: Logan at auction this weekend Mike, as an owner of one of the 1,500 Logan shapers made (so I've heard) it is hard not to like a Logan. It does not have a lot of bells and whistles but is solidly constructed and easy to operate. The Logan is a chain drive as opposed to gear driven so chain replacement is cheaper than gear replacement assuming the sprockets are okay. The vise will almost double the value of a Logan and the tooling (if it has any) should be of the type Art mentioned. If it is just a HSS lathe tool, DON'T USE THAT TOOL! Art has a beautiful kit / plans / explanation? of how to make a shaper tool holder and it is excellent. If you can, loosen the 4 screws on the right side of the cabinet of the machine as you face it, and slip the motor cover off. Hopefully you will find the variable speed pulley set up and a 3/4 hp motor on an adjustable plate. Some Logan's have had these critical guts removed. I put a drawing of a motor mount plate in our shaper group files for those who have had the motor mount stripped out. The table support of a Logan 8" is about the best out there for a small shaper. Massive frame with a horizontal bar supporting the entire table. The Logan has a crank that activates: the vise, table raising, ram positioning, table advance, stroke length (inside the door and its bolt is left handed), and manual rotation of the machine. Look for that crank! I've made many modifications on my Logan 8" (none that can't be taken off in seconds with no extra holes in the original machine) that greatly improve the adjustment and running of the machine. I've seen Logan's run from $200 to $900 depending on condition, vise, tooling. Logan also made an early version 7" machine. Not as desirable, but still a fine machine. You can go to Tony's website in the UK for pictures and descriptions of both the 7 and 8 inch versions. If you get your Logan, e-mail me back channel and we'll get you up and running and even some good mod ideas! Mike (the Gray-bus) in Iowa MikeJanF at Juno dot com ------- Date: Wed, 04 Feb 2004 18:47:30 -0000 From: "elperkins2003" Subject: Re: Logan at auction this weekend I own one of those early 7" Logan shapers. They are identical to the Porter Cable 7" shapers. My shaper does in fact have a table support. The support however is a less convenient than the one installed in the Logan 8". It is simply a threaded support with a large handwheel under the table. Works fine, just a little slower to operate. The 8" Logan had this adjustment located on the side of the machine as a crank handle which is much more convenient. Perk in Cincinnati ------- Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2004 20:36:02 -0000 From: "elperkins2003" Subject: Re: New Logan shaper. Info please. > I have uploaded some pictures in the Metal_Shapers_Pix group > under "John's Logan". If anyone could verify the model I would be > grateful. Also if anyone could tell from the pictures if everything > looks like it is present. I have never used a shaper before so I > don't know if it is complete. Thanks, John. John, you stole this machine. You should be ashamed of yourself! I also have a 7" Logan. Pictures of mine can be seen in the file pics under Logan 7. Mine is almost exactly the same as yours. I do not have a slotted table however, and mine is machinery gray in color. These are the early Logans that are identical to the Porter Cable 7" shapers. The later Logans were actually 8" stroke and had two major refinements. The vertical adjustment for the table was relocated on the side of the machine where it is a lot more convenient, and a very stout looking vertical table support was added in front of the table. They are very good machines in my book. I see several things in my 7" Logan that I like over my 7" South Bend, but I like them both. Mine is quite accurate and seems to have more power than the South Bend. Mine needs to have the main crank bearing replaced someday when I get around to it. Other than that, it is in good working condition. Perk in Cincinnati ------- Date: Wed, 01 Sep 2004 20:48:09 -0000 From: "remlapfluke" Subject: Logan 8" shaper question After quite a bit of hunting I've located and bought a small shaper. It's a 8" Logan complete w/cabinet except for the Shaper's pulley cover, interchangeable handle, and the vise. Are these good shapers? Can these items I'm missing be found and bought? Thanks for any info about this. ------- Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2004 22:00:49 -0500 From: mikejanfx~xxjuno.com Subject: Re: Logan 8" shaper question Jeff, Having owned an 8" Logan for many years (plus owned and used a SB7, and an Atlas 7) Logans are top notch. Very solid, simple, and accurate. Vises are rare and pricy. One Logan 7" owner recently cast a new pulley guard for his shaper (similar if not identical guards - maybe he'll pour two for a small fee?) The handle is not necessary and can be replaced by one you make, or you can modify all the 'square areas' to take other wheels or levers. See Yahoo Groups / Metal_Shaper_Pix / files / Modifications to a Logan 8" for a list of mods I made on my Logan 8". Mike in Iowa ------- Date: Thu, 02 Sep 2004 10:18:43 -0500 From: "J R Williams" Subject: Re: Logan 8" shaper question I am the owner and user of an old Logan and find it to be an excellent machine. Patch and polish the old iron and it will make chips. Joe W ------- Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2004 21:39:29 -0000 From: "Jay" Subject: When it rains it pours, Shapers coming out of the woodwork Ok, after looking and waiting and never finding a thing, I am now faced with 3 shapers to purchase. I need some help deciding which one. #1 is a South Bend in what appears to be fantastic shape, original paint, with vise. Guy wants 300, its a good days driving to get there and back. #2 is an Atlas in freshly repainted shape, not done well as the machined surfaces of the box table and vise were all painted. It is on Ebay at the moment and I am the high bidder. The plus here, it's an easy 30 minute drive away. Don't know what the final price would be but it seems that it will need some work so I didn't bid too high. #3 is a 12" Sheldon, looks good, guys says everything works, no vise. Asking price 1200 and it is also a solid days driving to get there and back. This price seems a bit stiff. Concerning shaper vises is there any reason you can't just bolt a milling vise to the table and use one of them? The table on the Sheldon seems big enough to bolt a Kurt to. So tell me what you guys think. Thanks, Jay Kilroy ------- Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2004 16:44:56 -0600 From: "J. R. Williams" Subject: Re: When it rains it pours, Shapers coming out of the woodwork Jay, buy option one and two. See which one you like and sell the other. Consider buying number three; then you will be covered for a wide size range of work. JRW ------- Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2004 22:58:38 -0000 From: volzmechatronicx~xxyahoo.com Subject: Re: When it rains it pours, Shapers coming out of the woodwork Jay--I'd go for the South Bend at $300 if the condition is as stated. The vise alone is worth about $150. Make it a two day "pleasure" trip and watch naughty movies at nite...about shaping....at the local moo-tel. When an Atlas is good, it ain't very good; when it's bad, it's pure junk, and complicated junk as well. Let someone else enjoy its pleasures. The Sheldon is a big and heavy machine, will be fun to load/transport/unload, and its "foot print" and ram-travel-space will occupy a good bit of floor when it beds down at your "orphanage". It's a good machine, though. Learn on the $300 South Bend first and then, later, graduate to a beastie when you're up to one. You will always be able to sell the South Bend for at least what you paid for it. Art (Houston) ------- Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 02:50:06 -0000 From: "al_messer" Subject: Re: When it rains it pours, Shapers coming out of the woodwork Well, since you asked---I would take the South Bend even if I had to drive all day. I gave $350.00 for mine, and the paint is peeling, the shaft has been bent slightly got "bumped pretty hard, I suspect), both belts were worn out, there was no tool bit holder, but the original vise was still attached. I'm as happy with it as a pig in a mud-hole with the corn crib door open as well!! Al Messer ------- NOTE TO FILE: Yes I know, the following is not a shaper-shaper comparison. It is actually a shaper versus no-shaper testimonial. Darn right. A lot of folks out there think a shaper is that wood and finger eating device that looks like a router table on steroids. We know what real shapers are, and should educate more folks about our gems. While more interest in shapers could do some harm in bringing up the price, it could also result in some smart cookie deciding to bring out a brand new shaper for the market. With current CAD/CAM procedures, manufacturing a new small manual shaper (perhaps with optional motorization) could generate a good profit without being exorbitantly priced. I'd sure like one. ------- Date: Fri, 24 Feb 2006 06:15:47 -0000 From: "KDSpriggs" Subject: Preaching to the choir This message is intended for any of those might be reading it but don't own a shaper. About a year ago I decided that I would like to get a shaper. An Atlas 7B came up for sale on Ebay. since it was only about a hundred miles from where I live I went and looked at it. It appeared to be in good condition, actually much better than the pictures indicated. I told my wife, "I am going to try to buy it and I probably wont use it more than once or twice a year". I got it bought and I was sure wrong about how much I use it. I find some use for it almost every day. If you are just starting out in the hobby I would sure recommend looking into getting a shaper after you get a lathe, drill press, and mill (or mill drill). Now I have a chance to pick up a much larger Hendy probably 18-20 inch. Sure is tempting. Let's see if I stacked the table saw on top of the wood lathe and then put those boxes on top of the saw and... I just might have room for it. ------- Logan vs South Bend [Metal_Shapers] Posted by: "Tim Coppage" ib61soonx~xxcox.net Date: Mon Jun 16, 2008 10:39 pm ((PDT)) Hi: Newbie to this group. Yesterday, not one but two shapers followed me (fun eh?). One is a Logan and I believe it to be an 8" stroke, and the other is a South Bend 7" The Logan appears to be a bit heavier in construction but the SB has the correct vise while the Logan has none. Both are on factory cabinets. Both have a little surface rust (Arizona-not much) and need a through cleaning etc. So, my question is this: One of them has to go so...please let me know your views. Heavier but less tooled or well tooled and lighter? Keeping both is not an option. Thanks Caddy ------- Re: Logan vs South Bend Posted by: "Joe R" jromasx~xxcolumbus.rr.com Date: Tue Jun 17, 2008 3:13 am ((PDT)) Not much help here but the Logan I had years was variable speed by a crank in the front of the cabinet. Currently I have a Atlas 7B that is very similar to the SB. The correct vice on the SB is a plus but the Logan is more machine. Just my thoughts and I'm sure don't help much. ------- Re: Logan vs South Bend Posted by: "Tim Coppage" ib61soonx~xxcox.net Date: Tue Jun 17, 2008 6:42 am ((PDT)) Joe: Thanks for the response. This Logan has the same set up for variable speed as well. I did a quickie test on both machines to make sure they both worked and the SB was smooth while the Logan wouldn't start at first (buzzing motor) and then ran after I unplugged and manually rotated the v/speed unit. Tried it again and it operated but only with the machine hopping and jumping around to the point of wanting to tip over. I'm guessing the entire v/speed needs a disassembly (the entire machine as well), cleaning, and proper lubrication. I suspect then it will be fine. Anyone out there that can give me an idea as to what constitutes a "heavy cut" on these machines? I'm not wanting to overtax their capabilities. And how much more can the Logan take as compared to the SB? And one more: what kind of grease?oil is proper for the ram? Many Thanks Caddy ------- Re: Logan vs South Bend Posted by: "Joe R" jromasx~xxcolumbus.rr.com Date: Tue Jun 17, 2008 9:59 am ((PDT)) As far as cuts go, the Logan I had would take a lot more then the Atlas I have now that's closer to the SB. My Logan did hop around if it was set a little on the fast side so you'll want to bolt it down. The reluctance to turn when first started could have been because the speed was adjusted while it was turned off. As I recall, if you went in one direction when it was turned off that could/would happen. If it were me making the decision, I would keep the SB because it has the original vice and would keep my 2 SB lathes company. I use way oil in the oil cups on my shaper. Joe ------- Re: Logan vs South Bend Posted by: "Chris" in2steamx~xxwi.rr.com Date: Tue Jun 17, 2008 9:51 pm ((PDT)) Caddy: From a practical standpoint the Southbend is smaller considerably easier to move and set up. You don't need to have the cabinet (unlike the Logan) for it but improves its value much like a vise does. The Logan depending upon its model is more then likely over an inch more of machine, if you know anything about metal machines you never have enough capablity. I personally would keep both, the Southbend would be a trophy, the Logan a work horse. As far as the cutting ablity I cannot say for sure on the Logan (no less than the SB I am sure), but the Southbend is comparable to Atlas and that can take a cut in one pass approaching a 1/8" in mild steel, AL can sometimes be more. The thing with a shaper this size is not so much how much it can swipe off in one pass but the finish and quailty of the cut; once you get good you can do things that are hard to accomplish on a mill without expensive cutters and a lot of setup time. I am working on my tool cutting to make a very good cast iron finish; for most people they would have to consider some form of grinding to do this otherwise. Tooling is the same for both; a piece of HSS, you grind it to suit, a handful of blanks can do a lot. I have an Atlas 7b; recently I let a Logan go that I could have had cheap; I now regret that decision. It needed a vise also, but a vise is a small consideration if you are going to use the machine -- not just look at it. Chris ------- Re: Logan vs South Bend Posted by: "Jim Farrell" jimjimberx~xxyahoo.com Date: Tue Jun 17, 2008 11:50 pm ((PDT)) My SB has forced lubrication (oil pump on the crank)... if that's the same as yours, make sure it's working. It will make life a lot easier :) Jim ------- Re: Logan vs South Bend Posted by: "Tim Ostley" Tim.Ostleyx~xxgooglemail.com Date: Wed Jun 18, 2008 3:25 am ((PDT)) Dear All: Don't get too hung up about always using a vice on a shaper. Many times it is better to clamp the work directly to the work table (remember you can use a sheet of paper to increase grip), using clamps, angle plates, stops or whatever is appropriate. Vices can be transferred from one machine to the next. I concur with the thought of keeping the larger of the two machines as long as it is built as solidly. Any light construction will flex, particularly with the interrupted cuts you get on a shaper. I found out the hard way about the power in the the ram of my Elliot 10 driven by 3/4 hp. Too deep a cut and the work plus vice were propelled smartly off the table at potentially painful height. (Shaper has an integral stand and the table was just below waist high!) I then spent some time making properly fitting T nuts rather than the odd assortment of large headed bolts, washers etc. So far no repeat. Tim ------- Re: Logan vs South Bend Posted by: "Tim Coppage" ib61soonx~xxcox.net Date: Wed Jun 18, 2008 10:20 pm ((PDT)) Hey guys: Thanks for the opinions. Lots of things to consider, so for the moment I'm just going to give them a bath and think about it some more. BTW, I found some data on when the machines were made and it indicates that the serial # on the Logan is high on the column near the back right side of the machine. Must not be looking in the right place as I don't see it. Where is it hiding? where on the SB as well? Thanks Caddy ------- Re: Logan vs South Bend Posted by: "Tim Coppage" ib61soonx~xxcox.net Date: Thu Jun 19, 2008 10:27 am ((PDT)) Yes, I'm way too familiar about having enough capacity. For the moment anyway, I have done some mental adjusting in my head and now can see that it does indeed make sense to keep both. (Thanks for helping on that!) I am lucky in that both machines came with factory cabinets. Not sure where I can carve out a space but luckily neither will have to be outside. Where is the serial number located on the SB? I've looked pretty thoroughly and haven't run across it as yet. Thanks Caddy ------- Re: Two Heney 24" shapers for auction [Metal_Shapers] Posted by: "First Eliminator" FirstEliminatorx~xxaol.com Date: Wed Oct 15, 2008 11:53 pm ((PDT)) William Abernathy wrote: > These are big-ass 24" shapers coming out of an Alcoa plant. Odds are you'll be bidding against scrappers, so it should pay to know what they weigh. I am in no way connected to this auction, and quake in mortal terror of machines of this size. --W < Hey guys, this is my first post in this group. My name is Mark and I am an enthusiast machinist. Currently I have 3 Van Norman mills. A 12, 21 and 28. Also, I am in the process of aquiring a Monarch 18"x 120" lathe. I own a transmission shop in North Adams, Massachusetts. The machining equipment is mostly for hobby as I may seldom have the need for mills and shapers in transmission repair. However, lathe work would be more common in trans repair. My father who is a machinist tells me don't waste my money on a shaper. But, a shaper is just too cool to not have in one's equipment fleet. To me, shapers are just fun to watch. Kinda like watching a steam locomotive. I joined this group a while back as I have been half-heartedly looking for a shaper for quite some time. A 20"-24" Cincinnati would have been my preference on a shaper. However, I have been on a Hendey kick lately. Kinda looking for Hendey lathe, then I found out they made shapers. So, I took a look at these two shapers on this auction. To tell ya the truth, I am not quite sure what to look for. Or, how to go about participating in an auction like this. I guess some questions I have are: Does Hendey make a good shaper? How would it compare to a Cincinnati or which brand would be preferred by someone experienced in shapers? Is buying through an auction like this risky in about getting a worn or bad machine? Also, the auction states that the machines must be moved by riggers on the premises---what might be expected with dealing with riggers on short notice? Anyone else have any interest in either of these machines? Does anyone have an idea on what they might weigh? If anyone has any comments on these machines, let me know. thanks in advance, Mark Berkshire Transmissions North Adams, Massachusetts ------- Re: Two Heney 24" shapers for auction Posted by: "kathryn hornick" kahornickx~xxyahoo.com Date: Thu Oct 16, 2008 12:14 am ((PDT)) Gentleman: Always remember, one can do small work on a large machine. But you can not do large work on a small machine. Most Sincerly Len ------- Re: Two Hendey 24" shapers for auction Posted by: "William Abernathy" williamx~xxinch.com Date: Thu Oct 16, 2008 12:17 am ((PDT)) For questions related to how to bid, you might want to check in with the auctioneer, whose job is to encourage the most money he can to show up. With respect to the problem of moving these behemoths, you need to use a rigger they approve to put it on a serious truck. That is multiple thousand pounds of iron you're looking at, and there's no way you're getting it to your shop without a substantial ride, along with some means of getting it off the truck on your end. If you inquire with the auctioneers, they can put you in touch with the approved riggers, who can probably recommend a good trucker. When I got my first motorbike, my dad spelled it out for me: The cheapest part is buying it. William A. ------- Re: Two Hendey 24" shapers for auction Posted by: "Andrew Fitzgibbon" wade8ax~xxmeer.net Date: Sat Oct 18, 2008 7:47 am ((PDT)) Jason J on October 16 wrote: > I think you are a bit high at 8K lbs. My 1943 16" HD Cincinnati shaper > weighs 4,860 lbs and it is the same frame and footprint at the 20" HD. > The standard models are reputed to be lighter. Still a heck of a lot > of iron. Jason, you're right, now that I think about it 8K may be a little heavy. A Cinci 36" HD is around 12-13K, as I recall (according to a manual I looked at once). Here's some numbers from a 1929 Hendey catalog I found: 20": 5200 lbs. 24": 6025 lbs. 32": 9200 lbs. Newer machines will likely be heavier. Andy ------- South Bend or Boxford Shaper [Metal_Shapers] Posted by: "drewpy134" caia2253x~xxmsn.com Date: Wed Mar 4, 2009 3:33 am ((PST)) Condition and price being equal, which machine would you pick and why? ------- Re: South Bend or Boxford Shaper Posted by: "johann_ohnesorg" bigdukeonex~xxgmx.de Date: Thu Mar 5, 2009 4:25 am ((PST)) Hi, if the Boxford can do angular work in two directions by using a swivel table, pick that one. If it only will do the same geometrical tricks as the Southbend, go with the Southbend. More people know it, more people have parts, and more people know its bad habits. Cheers, Johann ------- Re: South Bend or Boxford Shaper Posted by: "drewpy134" caia2253x~xxmsn.com Date: Fri Mar 6, 2009 10:06 pm ((PST)) The Boxford has the swiveling table. [and in a later message] The Boxford also has the powered vertical feed in addition to horizontal feed. ------- Re: South Bend or Boxford Shaper Posted by: "johann_ohnesorg" bigdukeonex~xxgmx.de Date: Sat Mar 7, 2009 3:17 am ((PST)) Peek there, thatīs what I mean with two swiveling directions. The Southbend is a nice machine, I like the auto lube function. http://www.motor-manufaktur.de/werkstatt/ludwig-gack/pics/h20-04.jpg ------- Re: South Bend or Boxford Shaper Posted by: "Marty Escarcega" escarcegax~xxcox.net Date: Sat Mar 7, 2009 7:37 am ((PST)) I would opt for the Boxford as long as it is complete, and has a unique feature. That and it is a little different from the South Bends. Unique in its own right. Marty ------- Re: South Bend or Boxford Shaper Posted by: "traffop_uk" ymlx~xxrebelansin.net Date: Sun Mar 8, 2009 4:02 pm ((PDT)) I thought the Boxford was a copy/redesign of the South Bend? They certainly seem very similar other than cosmetically. Given that early Boxford lathes were based on the SB 9", I've wondered whether there might have been a formal arrangement in place between the two companies. As to choice, a lot may depend on where you live, here in the UK Boxfords turn up fairly regularly but I've never seen a South Bend for sale (their lathes are not uncommon however, perhaps due to WWII exports). The swivel table and vertical power feed noted in other replies were options on the Boxford. From my observations of Ebay examples these features are quite rare. ------- Re: South Bend or Boxford Shaper Posted by: "drewpy134" caia2253x~xxmsn.com Date: Sun Mar 8, 2009 4:15 pm ((PDT)) I've always heard that the earlier Boxford lathes were reproductions of the South Bend lathes and many parts were interchangeable. In the case of the shapers, I see very few similarities. Boxford may have copied (or purchased) a different shaper for their own. ------- Re: South Bend or Boxford Shaper Posted by: "traffop_uk" ymlx~xxrebelansin.net Date: Mon Mar 9, 2009 6:50 am ((PDT)) I agree the styling is very different (the Boxford is more "modern"), but that applies to the lathes as well. However if you go to the Lathes.co.uk site and compare them side by side, the major controls are arranged in the same places, and both have the same angled table. The similarity is more obvious on the bench mount Boxford, but that version is rarer (which may be another factor for the OP to consider). ------- Re: Logan versus South Bend shaper [Metal_Shapers] Posted by: "mikejanfx~xxjuno.com" Date: Wed Aug 26, 2009 2:41 pm ((PDT)) I've owned and used both. The Logan wins hands down in my book -- especially the Logan 8. The chain drive is not a weak point from my perspective, it's the best part. I never broke a chain on my Logan, but if I had the local hardware store could fix me up. Try that on any gear driven shaper. You're either replacing an entire gear (pinion gear), or a few teeth on the bull gear. And if you've got a Delta/ AMMCO, your bull gear is phenolic and helical cut. Difficult to find replacement gears of any kind. All of them a little bit more involved than a chain. The SB is a good shaper. Excellent tooling (when you can find it and if you can afford it.) But the Logan is one tough shaper. I recently sold mine with the original vise ... for $1k. (I have another shaper that's larger and needed the room!) I would not be without a shaper. For internal splines, keyways, gears, and dovetails, a shaper will get the job done! Mike in Iowa ------- LIke New From Factory 7" South Bend Shaper advise??? [Metal_Shapers] Posted by: "lockheed1977" brendanhornbakex~xxyahoo.com Date: Sun Nov 7, 2010 11:20 am ((PST)) I was wondering if you guys could advise me if a shaper that I want is a good buy. I have been wanting one and found a guy selling this one locally for $1900. My question is: Is this a deal that I should snatch up immediately or do these types of deals come around here and there? Ire ally don't have the money but could come up with it if it is a once in a lifetime opportunity to get one in this shape. I have seen pictures and it looks like brand new and it was never torn down for a restoration. Any help you could give me would be greatly appreciated. Brendan Here is part of the email that the guy sent me. "South Bend 7" Metal Shaper - Mechanical condition is Like New. This rare machine is pretty much like new, with the exception of the paint. The down feed handle and cross feed crank seem to only have about 0.005" back lash, and all visible positioning screws look to be as new. Original scraping is apparent over much of the visible ways areas that were scraped at the factory. There are scraping marks visible in the ram ways at the back of the machine, and the dovetails on the ram show no wear pattern on the engaged vs. unengaged areas. The South Bend 7" shaper, while a home shop sized machine, had the distinction of being pressure oiled. This machine also has the heavier of the two motors recommended, being the 1/2 horsepower motor, it is set up for 115 volts, can also be set for 230 volts, it requires single phase household type current for input power. It is on its own special cabinet stand with 3 locking drawers and two original keys, also has the original South Bend Co. vise, and the standard and special extension tooling for the clapper box, some special wrenches, catalog listing and parts manual, a copy of "How to Run a Metal Shaper" by South Bend, In addition to the great condition, the cabinet and the vise are hard to find - virtually impossible to find in this condition. The ultra rare dividing head shown is included." ------- Re: LIke New From Factory 7" South Bend Shaper advise??? Posted by: "Dutch" dutchx~xxcrufflecarp.org Date: Mon Nov 8, 2010 3:31 am ((PST)) It sounds very optimistic. No decision until/unless you see photos. It would have to look like it came off the assembly line to be "like new". Otherwise it's just used and way way overpriced. Mine is now up and running in the last few weeks. http://images57.fotki.com/v283/photos/4/28344/9161136/DSCF2461sbs-vi.jpg I didn't pay outright for mine but did some gun trading with a friend in Oklahoma. I hate it when people use the term "rare" either for guns or machines. The South Bend isn't rare. This dude took creative writing in junior college. This is what mine looked like after sitting many years in a welding shop. Oy! http://images9.fotki.com/v212/photos/4/28344/9161136/IMG_1244-vi.jpg Dutch northern Calif ------- Re: LIke New From Factory 7" South Bend Shaper advise??? Posted by: "John DeBrular" debrularx~xxsuddenlink.net Date: Mon Nov 8, 2010 5:01 am ((PST)) It's a puzzle to me why everyone wants everyone else to go to CNC. I agree that CNC machines are a necessity in a production shop. Manual machines also fit right in and are juust as valuable. A successful shop should have a good mix of both types. I encourage young people who are considering going into the machinist field to resist the current trend to learn only CNC and to first become a proficient machinist and build a good foundation of their skills then learn how to do CNC. John DeBrular ------- Re: LIke New From Factory 7" South Bend Shaper advise??? Posted by: "Joe R" jromasx~xxcolumbus.rr.com Date: Mon Nov 8, 2010 6:02 am ((PST)) John: Very good advice. One needs to learn to walk before they learn to run. This applies to about every field. Joe R. ------- Re: Advice on purchasing this 7" South Bend Shaper Please??? Posted by: "Joe R" jromasx~xxcolumbus.rr.com Date: Sun Nov 7, 2010 12:20 pm ((PST)) Brendan: It's too rich for my blood but looks very nice. If you want a first class shaper this looks like a winner with the included vice and indexing head. And it's local so you don't have to drive somewhere to pick it up or have it busted up by a shipping company. Joe R. ------- Re: Advice on purchasing this 7" South Bend Shaper Please??? Posted by: "William Abernathy" williamx~xxinch.com Date: Sun Nov 7, 2010 12:54 pm ((PST)) $1900 is a lot for a shaper of this (or any...) size. This said, the thing looks to be in very good shape, and the original vise AND dividing head really set this apart. Some of these came up for auction as NOS military surplus (in the cosmolene and in the original crates, with all accessories) last year from a DRMO in Texarkana, and they went for "$1870 to $2827, with 6 over $2500," as noted by list member David Sampar. However, last time I checked, the buyer (one Co. in Utah that snapped up almost all of them) was still trying to profitably resell the ones they'd bought. So I guess the question is: why are you interested in a shaper? If you want to consider it solely as a piece of industrial machinery, then no, it's not worth the the space it would take up in your shop: you would be better off saving the the money and putting it towards a mill. If you're still interested in it, then you have a touch of sentiment about you, because you are still interested in this piece of obsolete industrial hardware. This one is clearly in very good shape and, with the attachments, in rare company indeed. On the other hand, you can sit this one out and look for a bit tattier machine and a bit less original tooling, and spend a lot less money for a homely workhorse. Is it going to be a working tool in your shop, or a collectible? Because for $1900, I know I'd be a little nervous about crashing into the dividing head or scalping the vise. My Ammco set me back a day's labor with a paint roller to acquire, and a lot of hours with the derusting bath and rattle- can to restore. Even so, it will never be a $1900 machine (unless/until the renminbi is allowed to crush the dollar into powder). But I have a working shaper, which is nice, and I figure it should be worth about $600-$800. If you get this shaper, will you be willing to use it, or are you just going to polish it and admire it? I don't mean to be harsh, but determining whether it's worth it to you is ultimately up to you. I can tell you that a shaper in this condition, with these attachments, does not come up every day, or even every year. There are few data points to compare it to. This said, you will not likely find a better machine + tooling at this price. But do you really need such a machine with original tooling? William Abernathy Berkeley, CA http://yourwritereditor.com ------- Re: Advice on purchasing this 7" South Bend Shaper Please??? Posted by: "Jon" mc_n_gx~xxyahoo.com Date: Sun Nov 7, 2010 1:47 pm ((PST)) If you really want to spend that kind of money you can also start sending us some too. While I love my Logan 8" I would never ever think of spending $1900 on it. If you have a ton of money burning a hole in your pocket or you are a collector of rare pieces then get it. Otherwise you can get 2 other 'modern' machines for the cost of that one. In the end it is your money and whatever the machine means to you. ------- Re: Advice on purchasing this 7" South Bend Shaper Please??? Posted by: "John DeBrular" debrularx~xxsuddenlink.net Date: Sun Nov 7, 2010 5:24 pm ((PST)) I don't believe that this guy is planning on doing any production work. In my opinion this is a great buy, a bit on the high end price wise but also very high on the quality and one with all the extras. If I didn't already have a good & complete shaper I would certainly consider this. Apparently some of you and the prospective owner are not on the same page. I have a mill but I plan on using my shaper at every chance. My opinion is if you have the money without denying your family food, clothing and shelter BUY. Try & buy the extras that go with that gem. John DeBrular ------- Re: Advice on purchasing this 7" South Bend Shaper Please??? Posted by: "Whitey Hanson" whansonx~xxplainstel.com Date: Sun Nov 7, 2010 5:36 pm ((PST)) FWIW I agree with John ------- Re: Advice on purchasing this 7" South Bend Shaper Please??? Posted by: "David" superdave257x~xxyahoo.com Date: Sun Nov 7, 2010 6:04 pm ((PST)) I gave 500 for my 7" delta and another hundred to fix the gears in it, along with some paint and a little work, but I don't have the extras or the original cabinet. Mine sits on a roll around cart and I work it when I want to. Buy the machine for whatever reason satisfies you, or save your money and find and buy a bigger machine. In the end it's up to you. ------- Re: Advice on purchasing this 7" South Bend Shaper Please??? Posted by: "Whitey Hanson" whansonx~xxplainstel.com Date: Sun Nov 7, 2010 6:17 pm ((PST)) If you can afford the price. It looks like a great buy especially being a SB. Or a Atlas. If you buy a cheap one. By the time you get it all fixed and buy the extras.. AND not counting anything for your time. You may not have saved a dime. And look at all the guys including myself sometimes hunting for parts for a bargain buy. Plus the fact for a smaller machine SB is a great one to own. Just My Opinion. ------- Re: Advice on purchasing this 7" South Bend Shaper Please??? Posted by: "lockheed1977" brendanhornbakex~xxyahoo.com Date: Mon Nov 8, 2010 3:32 am ((PST)) This is exactly the response I was looking for! No, I don't have money burning a hole in my pocket and I do plan on using the machine. I love machines like the next guy but if I can get one for half the price, GREAT. If the price of this one vs. a well use one that I have to rebuild is only a couple hundred dollars than I would rather have this one. Thanks for the advice! Brendan ------- Re: Advice on purchasing this 7" South Bend Shaper Please??? Posted by: "Allen M" al_messerx~xxyahoo.com Date: Fri Nov 12, 2010 6:57 pm ((PST)) It looks to be in beautiful condition, a LOT prettier than mine, but -- I only gave $350.00 for mine, and although mine looks ugly due to peeling paint, it is mechanically complete and accurate. ------- Need advice on newly aquired Lewis shaper [Metal_Shapers] Posted by: "bobp_59" bobx~xxphotoeyeview.com Date: Sat Jan 8, 2011 8:46 am ((PST)) I am a new member of this group. I just bought a Lewis shaper and I'm cleaning/oiling and generally checking everything. The fellow I bought it from said he wanted me to be sure I was happy with it and gave me a week to return it provided I didn't break anything. My first concern is with the box. I put a dial indicator on the bottom of the ram and measured the change from left to right as I moved the box and slid the ram in and out. Left to right had a difference of .001" and in to out had a difference of .0035". Since this is my first experience with a shaper, I don't know if this variation is acceptable or not. I had expected better results. Is 'resurfacing' the top of the box with the shaper itself likely to improve things or make them worse? Or should I just return the shaper? Thanks for any advice anyone can offer. Bob ------- Re: Need advice on newly aquired Lewis shaper Posted by: "jmartin957x~xxaol.com" Date: Sat Jan 8, 2011 10:27 am ((PST)) The .001" doesn't sound too bad to me. If it bothers you, you could always scrape the table in. Or is it the ways that are off? As to the .0035", I'd suppose it depends a bit on which way it is off. If it is the toe/outboard end of the table that is high, and under the pressure of a cut it evens out, I'd not be too unhappy. If you do decide that you want to fix it, keep in mind that taking a cut of .001" or less with the shaper is not an easy thing to do. Since you'll be using the shaper vise for the great majority of your work, you may find that shimming the vise to get things "perfect" is the easy way out. Just my own opinion, though, John Martin ------- Re: Need advice on newly aquired Lewis shaper Posted by: "mikejanfx~xxjuno.com" mikejanfx~xxjuno.com Date: Sat Jan 8, 2011 12:26 pm ((PST)) Bob: Most guys would "kill" for a shaper box that close! Okay, maybe they would just jump up and down like a little kid. Old shapers are not always dead nuts and need some coaxing. Some Lewis shapers (since they were kits) were modified by their builders. My Lewis has a box that can rotate from side to side to get angled cuts. Yours might be the same. Loosen the center nut in the box and tap it into true. However, .001 is awfully close if you are measuring side to side. Many shapers have an outboard support that can take care of that .0035 droop. My Logan had a similar problem, but the outboard support could get it into perfect tram. You might consider adding an outboard support to your Lewis that would easily solve the problem and get your table level. Remember, since Lewis shapers were kits, no two were ever the same. It's your shaper. You can make the mods (using your shaper) and make a better one at the same time. Our late friend Art Volz even CNCed a shaper once! Make it yours and make it better. Mike in Iowa (Lewis, Logan, Atlas 7, SB 7, and a no-name shaper) ------- Re: Need advice on newly acquired Lewis shaper Posted by: "Bob Paulsen" bobx~xxphotoeyeview.com Date: Sat Jan 8, 2011 11:51 am ((PST)) John: Thanks for your reply. You bring up an interesting point about whether the box or the ways is at fault relative to the left to right change. I haven't figured out how to check the ways to see if they are at fault. I don't have a machinist's [precision] level and that is the only way I know to check this. Unfortunately, the .0035" is a drop from the front of the box to the toe/outboard end. I haven't gotten to the vise yet to see how it compares to the box, but certainly shimming it sounds like a practical solution. Bob ------- Re: Need advice on newly acquired Lewis shaper Posted by: "jmartin957x~xxaol.com" Date: Sat Jan 8, 2011 2:06 pm ((PST)) Yeah, checking with a precision level is probably the best way. Putting a level on the table, shimming it until you can read the bubble, then running the table side to side will tell you if the ways are crooked or heavily worn in one area. Since the table is drooping, have you snugged up the gibs to see if that makes a difference? As I understand it, the Lewis is made from a kit. Which means that the table was probably surfaced on the machine, by the machine, and by the user. Which means that - given some play in the gibs and flex in the machine - I'd have expected the near/toe/outboard end of the table to read a bit high when checked with an indicator under no load when new. New vs. now. Lathes get used a lot in most shops, and especially near the headstock, so finding one with heavy and uneven wear is not uncommon. Same with milling machines, although the wear is not as localized. Surface grinders, with the table constantly moving quickly, and the gritty environment, can show a great deal of way wear. But in most shops shapers don't get a huge amount of use and consequently are often found in almost pristine condition. I've never tested the truth of my Rhodes shaper. Just the other day, I planed the edges on some sheared and saw cut 1/2" plate, held in the vice, cutting with the edges parallel to the stroke. I finished them on the surface grinder, which showed me that they were out of parallel by at least a couple of thousandths. That was good enough for me. Cutting with the edges perpendicular to the stroke would probably have given me more accuracy, but would have taken ten times as long. Doesn't sound like you're too far off to me. I'd use it as is, and shim the vise if I had a vise job that was particularly fussy. For a really fussy job mounted directly to the table, I'd probably take a first pass and then decide whether I needed to shim. John ------- South Bend or Atlas 7" Which one to keep? [Metal_Shapers] Posted by: "Robert M" atwatterkentx~xxhotmail.com Date: Fri Nov 25, 2011 8:23 pm ((PST)) I just picked up an SB shaper. I've had an Atlas for a couple of years. The SB needs to be cleaned up and the Atlas is in clean running order. Both have an original vise. The SB has a 3 drawer base cabinet which I'll keep for which ever one I don't sell. Both are the same size. Both cost me the same. Which one would you keep & why? ------- Re: South Bend or Atlas 7" Which one to keep? Posted by: "Lynn Kasdorf" ironandsteelx~xxgmail.com Date: Fri Nov 25, 2011 9:03 pm ((PST)) I also have an Atlas 7" (running) and a South Bend (rusty, unrestored). My impression of the SB is higher, mainly because it has automatic lubrication. That is a big factor to me. I can't wait until I have time to restore the SB! Love tha cabinet. LK ------- Re: South Bend or Atlas 7" Which one to keep? Posted by: "Allen M" al_messerx~xxyahoo.com Date: Sat Nov 26, 2011 6:36 am ((PST)) I would keep the Atlas because it is in my opinion more user friendly. That is, you do not have to leave the operator's station to crawl inside the machine from the opposite side to change the length of the stroke or the position of the ram and it does not take but a couple of minutes with the oil can to get all the oil cups full of oil and ready to run. I have owned both and I still own a SB but I wish that I had kept my Atlas. Al Messer ------- Re: South Bend or Atlas 7" Which one to keep? Posted by: "David" superdave257x~xxyahoo.com Date: Sat Nov 26, 2011 9:51 am ((PST)) The one that's in the best shape mechanically. ------- Re: South Bend or Atlas 7" Which one to keep? Posted by: "Nelson Collar" nel2larx~xxyahoo.com Date: Sun Nov 27, 2011 7:41 am ((PST)) Robert: Both machines are very good, but the Atlas you have it where you want it to be. Unless we are missing something. Why would you do all the work on it to get it where the Atlas is at. I understand if you can make a good profit, go for it. But then you will be plagued with the same question, which one. If you can make a profit as it is sell it, the SB that is. Nelson Collar ------- Re: South Bend or Atlas 7" Which one to keep? Posted by: "armnex~xxsbcglobal.net" Date: Sun Nov 27, 2011 9:30 am ((PST)) The only thing I don't like about the South Bend is the table is missing T-Bolt slots (what were they thinking?) and mine has Auto Lube. CrankTurner ------- Re: South Bend or Atlas 7" Which one to keep? Posted by: "johann_ohnesorg" bigdukeonex~xxgmx.de johann_ohnesorg Date: Mon Nov 28, 2011 6:35 am ((PST)) Hi, I would measure which one makes the more accurate/parallel parts and keep that one. Apart from that, the Southbend has Autolube which I would consider a huge advantage. Both are nice machines. Cheers, Johann ------- Re: South Bend or Atlas 7" Which one to keep? Posted by: "Allen M" al_messerx~xxyahoo.com Date: Mon Nov 28, 2011 7:09 am ((PST)) But the Atlas does have "true" "T" slots which really provided options for clamping work pieces directly on the bed. I agree with the previous post about the SB -- what WERE they thinking of when they designed the Bed box with no "T" slots? Al ------- [Actual company's name is spelled Brodhead-Garrett] Briodhead-Garret [Metal_Shapers group] Posted by: "Pat Gamache" cpgamachex~xxtelus.net Date: Thu Aug 2, 2012 7:31 am ((PDT)) I have located a Brodhead-Garrett on Craig's List in my area. I have looked it up at the Lathe UK site. A promising shaper from what I read. Do any of the members have one and what is your opinion? I hope to go and have a look at this shaper and see what condition it is in and what may be missing or broken. Regards Claude ------- Re: Briodhead-Garret Posted by: "mikejanfx~xxjuno.com" mikejanfx~xxjuno.com Date: Thu Aug 2, 2012 7:38 am ((PDT)) A Brodhead-Garrett shaper is basically the same as a Logan. Simple, built like a tank, and a great shaper! Bought mine for $40 in 1988 (shaper prices low). Polished, painted, restored it twice. Final time was 2010 and sold it for $1,000. Wish I had another one! Mike in Iowa ------- Re: Briodhead-Garret Posted by: "jeremy youngs" jcyoungs76x~xxgmail.com Date: Thu Aug 2, 2012 7:52 am ((PDT)) Pat, I have one 8 inch that came from a tech school. Overall I think the quality is good; everything seems smooth however mine came sans table and toolpost so I can't yet give you real world advice as to how well it works, as I haven't been able to locate a table and haven't had time to cast one yet. But if the price is reasonable I think it would be a good purchase. ------- Logan ? Brodhead-Garrett ? Posted by: "Pat Gamache" cpgamachex~xxtelus.net Date: Thu Aug 2, 2012 7:41 am ((PDT)) I have looked into more shapers at the Lathes UK site and discovered the Brodhead-Garrett and Logan may be the same shaper. The seller listed it as a DELTA. I own an Ammco/Delta and did not recognise the photo so I started looking and stopped looking when I located the Brodhead-Garrett. I should have looked further. Claude ------- Re: Briodhead-Garret Posted by: "Scott S. Logan" sslx~xxlathe.com Date: Thu Aug 2, 2012 Brodhead-Garrett bought the Logan Shaper line from Logan Engineering. It is, for all intents and purposes, the same as the Logan 8" shaper. Scott S. Logan, President Tel +1 (815) 943-9500 Logan Actuator Co. Fax +1 (815) 943-6755 550 Chippewa Rd Email sslx~xxlathe.com Harvard IL 60033-2337 Web http://www.lathe.com USA ------- Re: Atlas 7B Metal Shaper [Metal_Shapers] Posted by: "Glen Linscheid" partsproductionx~xxcenturylink.net Date: Sun Jan 5, 2014 12:56 pm ((PST)) January 5, 2014 burkheimerx~xxgmail.com wrote: > John, I have one of the earliest Atlas 7s. The ratchet/pawl mechanism on it is identical to the 7B, except it's all steel and cast iron, no Zamak < I'd love to find one of those, the Atlas seems like a good design without the zinc alloy. Zamak is without a doubt the worst material ever used when it comes to repairs. Even tapping it is difficult, it needs a lead screw tapping machine or at least form taps because a cut tap pulls out with very little feedback to the operator. The first few years of running my shop I took in a few jobs repairing Zamak parts, but in a short time I refused to even look at them. Mechanically the Atlas seems to have many features of larger shapers. The one I saw at Dennie's display room seemed larger and more massive then the SB or Ammco's. ------- Re: Atlas 7B Metal Shaper Posted by: "Dennis Turk" dennis.turk2x~xxfrontier.com Date: Sun Jan 5, 2014 1:29 pm ((PST)) Yes the Atlas is bigger physically and heavier though it has the same travel as the SB and all of that design that came before it was SB. The box bed on the SB is quite a bit smaller than the Atlas though I think the SB is a better shaper design wise as well as construction wise. Just a little jewel. You guys just wait till I get the Barberstown shaper out so I can get good pictures of that one as its nearly as small as the one that Tubal Cain shows on one of his YouTube videos. Made much like that one also. The Barberstown shaper is about half way in-between the one Tubal Cain shows and the SB. I think the one Tubal shows has a 2 or 2 1/2 inch stroke and the Barberstown has a 4 1/2 inch stroke. Turk ------- 20" Steptoe or 32" G & E shapers [Metal_Shapers] Posted by: hruskajx~xxatt.net jhruska82 Date: Sun Oct 19, 2014 1:00 pm ((PDT)) I am considering the purchase of either a 20" Steptoe or a 32" Gould and Eberhardt shaper. Do not know the year of manufacture of either shaper but both designed for and are powered by three phase motors. I seek machine weight and floor space dimensions. Manuals would be helpful. I think both machines have the factory supplied oil system. The Steptoe does, not so sure on the G&E but the G&E dovetail on the ram looks perfect. Thanks, John ------- Re: 20" Steptoe or 32" G & E shapers Posted by: "JIM LIECHTY" jimliechtyx~xxyahoo.com Date: Sun Oct 19, 2014 6:55 pm ((PDT)) If you get the G&E, make sure you stand 34" away from the front of it! ------- Re: 20" Steptoe or 32" G & E shapers Posted by: "Glen Linscheid" partsproductionx~xxcenturylink.net Date: Mon Oct 20, 2014 2:09 am ((PDT)) I do admit a pang of jealosy. Assuming it is a quiet powerful and accurate machine with outboard table support. There is really nothing I can do with my little shapers that you can't do with the big one, and a whole lot you can do that I can't with my 7 and 8 inch shapers. I've said this before, when I built my shop, a steel building with concrete floor and roll up door with bridge crane, the first time I stood inside after it was done it seemed CAVERNOUS! I wondered what I would do with all that space. If a 32" shaper were there now though there wouldn't be room to walk. There is that aspect. Glen ------- Considering a purchase [Metal_Shapers] Posted by: sstephancx~xxyahoo.com sstephanc Date: Wed Aug 19, 2015 6:17 pm ((PDT)) Hi all, I've not yet bought a shaper, but am considering an AMMCO 7". I was out-bid on one at an estate sale a few years back, but the tool has stuck in my consciousness ever since. I did buy a few of the parts made by the previous owner. One is a hammer for a percussion rifle. Most of the form was cut by hand, but there is a 0.5" radius that was clearly cut with a shaper -- regular spacing of machine marks and the cuts stop just shy of their mark, leaving a thin ridge of metal at what I expect was the end of the stroke. Odd part is that ridge follows the 45° angle of the workpiece edge, and is not perpendicular to the direction of cut. Can a shaper be used to cut a radius? I assume this would require a jig that can be automatically indexed, but I saw no such thing at that sale. How do shapers rate at cutting gears, versus what ever else might be used in a home shop, like a small horizontal mill? I'm sure it is a tired question, but I saw nothing in the Files section: How does the utility of a shaper compare with that of a small vertical mill? Until I make some room, space concerns force me to choose one or the other. ------- Re: Considering a purchase Posted by: "Grant Erwin" grantx~xxnwnative.us blue_metal_baby Date: Thu Aug 20, 2015 7:56 am ((PDT)) It might surprise you what you can do with a shaper. No question, though, a vertical mill is at least 10X faster. That speed comes with a price though -- tooling costs at least 10X as much. The way you follow a curved line on a shaper is by feeding both the vertical and crossfeed screws by hand. They say it takes some practice but that you can get good at it. Also, that it's very slow. Shapers can be good at cutting gears, but you have to be able to make the cutter. I know a guy who bought a Hembrug lathe which came without change gears. His buddy and he ground up a bit using a lap in a drill press and frequent trips to the optical comparator. Once they got the shape they needed they made a whole set of gears on an Atlas 7B. It can be hard to mount an indexing head on a small shaper table, though. Usually you'd have to build a longer table extension. My personal experience is that small (7-8") shapers lack rigidity. My current machine is a 12" Sheldon and I find it to be a useful size without taking up a huge amount of floor space. I know you have the bug for an AMMCO but maybe you might want to keep looking for a while. Grant Erwin ------- Re: Considering a purchase Posted by: "JIM LIECHTY" jimliechtyx~xxyahoo.com jimliechty Date: Thu Aug 20, 2015 7:57 am ((PDT)) Hi...the short answer to your main question, of whether to buy a shaper or mill...a mill can do everything a shaper can do, but a shaper cannot come close to performing all of the operations that a mill can. ------- Re: Considering a purchase Posted by: anthrhodesx~xxaol.com anthrhodes Date: Fri Aug 21, 2015 10:35 pm ((PDT)) Jim, Dead wrong! Use your imagination. There are things which cannot be cut by any rotary cutter. Anthony Berkeley, Calif. ------- Re: Considering a purchase Posted by: "Charles" xlch58x~xxswbell.net Date: Sat Aug 22, 2015 12:51 am ((PDT)) I was going to say something similar, but the quill of a vertical mill can be pressed into service as a vertical shaper to cut splines and keyways. In fact they used to sell an attachment with a simple scotch yoke to do this as well. Bridgeport had an entire shaper head that could be mounted on the back of the turret and swung around. Imagination cuts both directions. Charles ------- Re: Considering a purchase Posted by: "JIM LIECHTY" jimliechtyx~xxyahoo.com jimliechty Date: Sat Aug 22, 2015 8:29 am ((PDT)) well....not sure that I am "dead wrong". I have cut internal splines on my mill without it being turned on. I didn't mean to offend anyone, just trying to help out the original poster in his quest for the one most useful machine. If I am allowed to have an opinion....I think that if his choice was a shaper, he would soon find the limitations, and be sorry he didn't get the mill instead....just trying to help him make his choice. I love shapers, and have 3 of them myself. ------- Re: Considering a purchase Posted by: in2steamx~xxwi.rr.com in2steam Date: Thu Aug 20, 2015 7:58 am ((PDT)) It sounds like your hammer was stamped and not shaped but that just my take on your description. Yes, shapers can cut radius's. It can be as simple as the eye ball method or as complicated as a universal attachment, which would also could be used to make helical cut gears. Typically that type work would have been done on larger machines though. Mostly shapers or their sibling slotters would use a rotary table or indexer to accomplish that task. I have seen a setup which can cut a near perfect circle which can be done on other machines easier (it's a tedious and slow job especially on a shaper), however in the same setup the keyway could not be cut like a slotter can. There is a jig out there that was described in a Popular Mechanics article to rotate the tool post as well to do an inside radius. Cutting gears is a little bland, there are many types of gears. They are better at bevel gears then standard mills without special attachments other then a form of indexing. Bevel gears are not for the faint of heart and I put that in my top ten challenging things to do on any manual machine. They are about equal to mills on 14.5 spur gears, the big advantage and disadvantage is you need the form the tool for them in either case (more so on the mill). So if you are really good at grinding you could get by on a shaper; if not, you need to buy the form tool for a mill. I have not cut a lot of gears on a vertical machine (it's not an easy setup on my machine), I have done it on a atlas horizontal and a K&T horizontal in school though. I would say overall the job is easiest on a well equipped larger horizontal mill. The Atlas was usable and if I was making a long set of spurs or rack and pinion with an easy to index amount of teeth I would use the atlas. Rack and pinions are easy on a shaper, a vertical mill without special cutter would take a long time to setup and I don't think you can do it on a horizontal without a special cutter or complicated setup. I sold my Atlas mill and kept my Atlas shaper if that's an indication, favoring my larger vertical mills. But the Atlas is a good machine although I never used it anywhere as near as much as I use my shaper(s). I have over the years done my far share of rebuilding lathes and mills and I would say for that my shaper has been indispensable. You can buy cutters to make angles but it's much easier, cheaper and quicker to set up the shaper for it. I would also say that for a finish in cast iron my shaper is second only to high class cnc mill or a really good machinist. To answer your last question, I started out with may atlas shaper, and it's still in use although much more limited use then my Rockwell (66% the size of a Bridgeport) and Index (133% the size of a Bridgeport) verticals the Atlas mill was sold off to make room for my Havir shaper. The lathes still see the most use and I think they are the most important purchase above the mill, you can do a lot with a lathe. Shapers to mills are slower, less accurate in most cases, and cannot punch a small round hole. They don't run carbide tooling well but in most other respects I can do just as much on the shaper as the mill. I would consider a shaper with a 7-8 in stroke the same class as a mill with 4x16 table. These are not stout machines, I am just comparing envelope, mostly they are the mill/drill size Chinese machines you see these days. A drill press can take up the slack for not have a mill for pockets for instance but it is more setups and often less accurate. Mills to shaper, I can take a much heavier cut, I can also walk away from a shaper sometimes while it's running unlike most small mills (note the Atlas mill can have power feed) which don't have power feeds. Mills require much more to get going, millers, holders, chucks etc. I always tell people your budget for the milling machine needs to double because it will cost that in tooling. The shaper you need a $2 piece of tooling and a grinder and you are off to the races. I almost never run holders, and have had same 4 pieces of tool steel in my Atlas since I have bought it over a decade ago. Both machines you will need to spend money on fixtures, so it's best to get a vise with either -- preferably a shaper vise with the shaper. In the end I think it depends more upon your expectations then the machine itself. That said, there is just something cool about shapers that most millers don't have, a pi nosh if you will so me I have to lean to the shaper first out shear coolness. I also think you will end up with Ironitis like me and just keep bringing things home. And when home gets too small, get a bigger home. I have never seen an Ammco much less run one but I hear aside from the phenolic bull gear they are good machines. But you need to make sure you get a vise. Best of Luck. Best Regards, Chris ------- Re: Considering a purchase Posted by: "Jordan" jwprincicx~xxbigpond.com jprincic Date: Thu Aug 20, 2015 7:59 am ((PDT)) A vertical mill is the more versatile I think. It can do just about everything a shaper can do, plus things like sunk keyways are quick and easy. They have bigger tables. You can more readily buy accessories for them. Shapers have some advantages though, including cheapness of tooling. You can do most things on either machine. If I had to choose, it'd be a mill for me. Nevertheless, I'm very glad I have a shaper too. For what they cost for a good one, you don't get much mill. Jordan ------- Re: Considering a purchase Posted by: l_schoolkatex~xxyahoo.com l_schoolkate Date: Thu Aug 20, 2015 10:21 am ((PDT)) Just to add to what's been said concerning shaper versus milling machines, in my shop, I find that each seem to be indispensable if you do enough variety. I estimate that most of my machining time is on the lathe, with the vertical mill and drill press next in line. Then comes the horizontal mill and shaper. Yes, I might do without the shaper but how then could I cut long internal keyways. Just the other day I had to do an internal spline and without the shaper I would have been stuck. And I often use the shaper just to take the rough cuts in steel and save the end mills. But the shaper is useless for most pockets! By the way, I have an AMMCO and keep it just because it looks so cool. My 11" Vernon does all the real work. ------- Re: Considering a purchase Posted by: "Paolo Amedeo" machineshopx~xxmedeo.net paolo_kaboom Date: Thu Aug 20, 2015 2:26 pm ((PDT)) One (in my opinion) very important point that has been discussed in the past but nobody mentioned it now, is the ability of planers and shapers to machine a part without introducing much stress. This is due to the single, uninterrupted cut, instead of a incredible series of interrupted cuts, with the tool continuously hammering the machined part. Paolo ------- Re: Considering a purchase Posted by: sstephancx~xxyahoo.com sstephanc Date: Fri Aug 21, 2015 10:02 am ((PDT)) The hammer was definitely not stamped: it is 7/32" at the thinnest (the wheel portion) and 1/2" thick at the thickest. The 1/2" radius is at the transition from the thin to the thick part. I would bet one could print a table of cross-feed to table advances and follow along as it clicks away. I would also bet you would be tired and crazy at the end of it. I had thought of making a mandrel to hold an involute horizontal milling cutter between centers on a lathe. The work would be held in a milling attachment on the saddle. The size of gears would be pretty limited due to the radius of the cutter and the height of the tooling to hold the workpiece. Has anyone tried anything like this? What is the going price for a 7" shaper in usable condition? The AMMCO that got away went for $700, while I have seen others on ebay go for $600, $675, $700, and $455, but all of those were sold around 2010. And yes, a shaper is just fun to watch. ------- Re: Considering a purchase Posted by: "Jim Ash" ashcanx~xxearthlink.net thissucks0914 Date: Fri Aug 21, 2015 10:03 am ((PDT)) I can cut a near-mirrored finish with a large-radius tool on my 7" Atlas. I can't touch that good of a finish with an end mill or a fly cutter. If you like doing final finish work or have a surface grinder (neither in my case), this argument may be weak. Jim Ash ------- Re: Considering a purchase Posted by: "Charles" xlch58x~xxswbell.net Date: Fri Aug 21, 2015 10:21 pm ((PDT)) There used to be a standard attachment carried by most of the large lathe makers called a millerette that in addition to doing what a standard milling attachment would do, would also cut gears. If you do a google search on "millerette lathe attachment" you will find pictures and discussions on them. I have also seen gear hobbing setups on a lathe. Charles ------- Re: Considering a purchase Posted by: "bill baedke" bbaedke2x~xxyahoo.com bbaedke2 Date: Fri Aug 21, 2015 10:21 pm ((PDT)) In the old days, when every good tool shop had at least one shaper, it was common practice to contour parts on a shaper. First the shape was scribed on the end of a bar. Then, the shaper hand (operater) would "follow the line" with his finish cut. A good shaper hand would be within thousandths. Multiple parts would then be sliced off the bar. Now, those jobs are contoured on a CNC mill. Bill B. ------- Re: Considering a purchase Posted by: jmartin957x~xxaol.com jmartin957 Date: Sat Aug 22, 2015 12:37 am ((PDT)) Other than drilling, boring and plunge cutting with an end mill, there is not much that a mill can do that a shaper can't do. A shaper can cut internal keyways and splines, plus internal hexes, squares or whatever other shape you need. Can you do that on a mill? Sure you can -- with a shaper attachment. Shaper cutters are dirt cheap, and you can grind and sharpen them yourself. Milling cutters are not cheap, and unless you have a T&C grinder you'll have to send them out for sharpening or, more likely, toss them. The original poster asked about machining a radius. I made a bunch of heavy belt buckles from naval bronze. The curved front and back faces were done on the shaper, following the depth line by hand while the table was feeding. ------- Re: Considering a purchase Posted by: "Charles Brumbelow" mrb37211x~xxyahoo.com mrb37211 Date: Sat Aug 22, 2015 9:56 am ((PDT)) Within its size range, internal splines or keyways can also be cut with a lathe that is not turned on. Could do a keyway with a drill press, but maintaining dimensions with splines might be a bit much. Charles ------- ------------------------------------------------------------------ This is just one of some 80 files about machining and metalworking and useful workshop subjects that can be read at: http://www.janellestudio.com/metal/index.html ------------------------------------------------------------------