This is just one of some 80 files about machining and metalworking and useful workshop subjects that can be read at: http://www.janellestudio.com/metal/index.html ------------------------------------------------------------------ Metal Shaper General is a catch-all file if the primary conversation did not fit neatly into the other metal shaper file titles. The metal shaper files are sometimes the hardest to categorize of any on this site. They frequently start as one subject and wander off onto other subjects. For example, someone asks about how to fix a shaper physical problem. The message thread, which you would expect to find in the file "Metal Shaper Repair General" sometimes ends up better suited for the "Metal Shaping Tips" file if the real problem is bad technique, not a faulty shaper. Sometimes that better technique also involves metal shaper bits and/or toolholders. So we have a file here called "Metal Shaper Bits and Toolholders". But I cannot and will not put the thread in all files possible. The thread goes into the shaper file that is most appropriate (my choice) or causes me the least editing/typing and/or headache at the end of a long day. Just not enough room on my site for posting threads in multiple files. As mentioned on my home page, you will get the most information out of these files if you check through all of most likely ones for the problem at hand, if the file you try first does not have a full answer. It sure isn't a perfect system, but after a while you will gain the knack of scrolling/skimming files at high speed. If you have copied the files to your site, you can use your text editor or word processor to open all the shaper files at once, and do word searches across all open files at once. Yours can't do that? Get a free copy of NoteTab Light through the home page link. A very good tool. [I have no relationship with them except as a very pleased user of that free program.] If you got to this file directly from my HOME PAGE, return there by using your browser's back button. BUT if you came to this file as the result of a web search engine, see many additional files on my home page Machining and Metalworking at Home http://www.janellestudio.com/metal/index.html SAFETY WARNING BEWARE: DO NOT ASSUME that any subject matter or procedure or process is safe or correct or appropriate just because it was mentioned in a news/user group or was included in these files or on this site or on any other web site or was published in a magazine or book or video. Working with metals and machinery and chemicals and electrical equipment is inherently dangerous. Wear safety devices and clothing as appropriate. Remove watches, rings, and jewellery -- and secure or remove loose clothing -- before operating any machine. Read, understand and follow the latest operating procedures and safety instructions provided by the manufacturer of your machine or tool or product. If you do not have those most recent official instructions, acquire a copy through the manufacturer before operating or using their product. Where the company no longer exists, use the appropriate news or user group to locate an official copy. Be careful -- original instructions may not meet current safety standards. Updated safety information and operating instructions may also be available through a local club, a local professional in the trade, a local business, or an appropriate government agency. In every case, use your common sense before beginning or taking the next step; and do not proceed if you have any questions or doubts about any procedure, or the safety of any procedure. Follow all laws and codes, and employ certified or licenced professionals as required by those laws or codes. Hazardous tasks beyond your competence or expertise should also be contracted to professionals. Let's be really careful out there. (c) Copyright 2003 - 2016 Machining and Metalworking at Home The form of the collected work in this text file (including editing, additions, and notes) is copyrighted and this file is not to be reproduced by any means, including electronic, without written permission except for strictly personal use. ============================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2002 20:03:20 -0500 From: "jerdal" Subject: Bull gear shaft [POSTED TO ATLAS GROUP] Well, the Atlas shaper bull gear shaft is still where it started out. Bearing and housing has not moved even 0.001 as far as I can see, relative to the keypocket which is exposed to view. I have tried all kinds of penetrating oils etc, tapping, everything short of "bashing" it, or heat, which is not practical in this case (most forms of torch etc will just mess up something else, and anyhow it isn't the shaft I need to heat, but the bearing race. Not a good plan). Unfortunately, the unit is un-runnable as-is, because it started with about 30 thousandths play in the bearings, and won't move any farther EITHER way. I am in need of more ideas for dislodging stubborn bearings. So far gear pullers, wood mallets, and lead hammers have failed to get any movement, before and after penetrating oil. The area is pretty much oil soaked anyway. Other than freeze mist, I am out of ideas. Bearing is about 3" diameter, with close to a 1" hollow shaft, stepped down to maybe 3/4 level with the inner bearing race. Thanks Jerry ------- Date: Fri, 07 Jun 2002 01:33:19 -0000 From: "outlawmws" Subject: Re: Bull gear shaft Borrow or rent a co2 tank and run it for awhile thru the hollow shaft. It should have the same effect that heating the outer race would. -Outlaw ------- Date: Fri, 07 Jun 2002 08:30:53 -0700 From: Jay & Anne Greer Subject: Re: Re: Bull gear shaft Hi Jerry, Years ago, when I was in Tahiti, we froze up a piston in the Diesel Engine on the schooner I was on. We went to the Hinano Brewery and got a box of dry ice and packed the bottom of the hollow piston with pieces of the ultra cold stuff. A broom stick and hammer popped it right out. I think if you can pack the inside of the shaft with ice in the same way, it may even work better than spraying it with CO2. Good Luck, Jay Greer ------- Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2002 08:42:57 EDT From: toolroomtrusteex~xxaol.com Subject: Some shaper information This was sent to the gingery machines e-list. It has some useful information on shapers and even mentions hand powered ones: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gingery_machines/files/About%20Sha pers/2935-Shaper1.pdf Check out the Gingery groups Files as there are 4 more of these Duplex files as well as some other files on shapers. Dave Gingery did write a book on making a shaper using aluminum castings and CRS plate. Larry Murray ------- Date: Sun, 15 Sep 2002 16:43:35 -0000 From: "gcbc74" Subject: Whipp Shaper First, I have no experience with shapers. I have a chance to buy a 16" Whipp shaper for $250. It is in pretty good shape. Some wear on the square slide but looks like it would be fairly easy to scrape true. I don't see a vertical pwr feed, is that a handicap? It has no vise. I'm wondering if I should go for it or look for something more modern. What do you guys think? Thanks, Larry ------- Date: Sun, 15 Sep 2002 17:47:33 -0500 From: "Ray Ethridge" Subject: Re: Whipp Shaper Larry, I am a real proponent of the "Bird in the Hand" theory. In the past if I have known where one is and let it get away I have almost always regretted it. You may be able to find a better deal, but you gotta admit it couldn't get much cheaper! As far as the power vertical feed, I don't have one on my shaper (Sheldon 12") and really can't say that I would have used it much if I had. The biggest handicap in the deal is the lack of a vise. It will set you back a pretty penny getting a respectable vise for a 16" shaper. If you think you may find another one with a vise somewhere I think I would go for one with the vise. On the other hand, you have a ready made theme song you could be playing while using it... "Whipp it " "Whipp it good" "naa-naa-naa naa" "Whipp it" What other shaper owner could say that??? Ray Ethridge ------- Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2002 11:18:03 +1200 From: "" Subject: Re: Whipp Shaper I certainly wouldn't be letting a likely shaper of that sort of size slip by at the moment. Certainly a vice is very nice to have. On the other hand, you can in fact make a suitable vice using the shaper itself if necessary, although this tends to mean that the size of the vice is a little smaller than you would otherwise have. This is not necessarily a big disadvantage, as bigger jobs tend to bolt on the table anyway. It is actually worth thinking before just sticking the job in the vice, as it is one more source of error. A collection of bits of flat and angle with holes drilled in and a set of bolts and T nuts is certainly a great asset to have with a shaper. Power downfeed is not actually a very common feature, at least on smaller machines. it may be more so on bigger ones. It is perfectly possible to add one to an existing machine without major surgery. The Ian Bradley book shows how to do it for instance. But I haven't found the need to do so for either of mine yet. In general, results will be more accurate if the surface is determined by the horizontal feed. For instance, to make one face at right angles to another, it is better to face off the first, bolt that to the side of the table, and face off the second using the horizontal feed. This does require that the table be correctly aligned, which is easily checked with a dial gauge, and that the side of the table be at right angles to the top. It generally will be in a competently made shaper I hope! The alternative, of facing the top and then doing one side using the downfeed on the ram, does not tend to give as good a finish on the side, and it can be very hard to get the downfeed accurately aligned. regards John ------- Date: Sun, 22 Sep 2002 20:01:03 -0000 From: "Art Volz" Subject: Re: post #1781 --- In Metal_Shapersx~xxy..., "Merril Mabon" wrote: > Wow ! Ask and you shall receive. I just finished reading all the > posts re: Steptoe. I never used the "Archives" feature before but > will again I'm sure. There were many I do remember reading but > Steptoe did noy ring a bell. Some of us have senior moments- with me > it's senior seasons. I'll check out the ad and take a look, and > probably purchase if possible. Merril Merril--When you go look at it, look for completeness and how well it operates--cutting metal under power. Look for OEM accessories such as a good and correct swivel base vise. Look at the toolholder: if its an Armstrong style--the one with the crennelations (sp?) where it grips the square HSS cutting tool allowing rotary adjustment--that's the one you want. Straight LATHE tool holders (non-rotatable tool) for CARBIDE tool bits will work too, but add no value if with the shaper. The vise does...a little; it will become your primary work holder. Look also at the shaper's bulk and its weight. Can you move it...transpo it...get it into your basement shop, if you have to? If you have to dissassemble it to move it, make sure that the seller will give you the time--and the assistance--to do so. And, if you do have to dissassemble it, to move it, make sure you take photographs as you do so, place the small parts into sealable containers LABELED, and draw diagrams showing how the parts should fit together when you reassemble them. Also, only take apart what needs to be taken apart, and restrict yourselve to the bigger pieces. If you don't need to take something apart: DON'T. Many good machines have been permanently wrecked by newbie owners taking them apart, either to move them, or to "make them like new" when all they really needed was a good solvent cleaning and scraping and proper re- lubrication. Paint has two purpose only: the primary one is to preclude rusting; the non-essential one is cosmetic "to make it B*E*A*U*T*I*F*U*L...again". (Farmers don't paint their machines...their tractors...and manure spreaders...and they work and work and work--usually only tighten 'em up and lube 'em if necessary.) The ram should be removeable readily as an assembly; note the direction that the top crank link is pointing. Really look closely at the gibs so that they can be replaced exactly in the same position that they were originally in. If they are tapered gibs (I don't know about the Steptoe) think twice before doing anything. In a similar manner the table can be removed, and then the motor. If the motor is huge and heavy for its rated HP output, consider buying a modern, smaller, and more efficient motor (and electrically safer) as a replacement; keep the old motor on a shelf as being the OEM legacy one. But, in your purchase price, if it is an olde-tyme motor and you will have to buy a new replacement for maybe $150, then that $150 needs to be one of the first discounts from the asking price. Don't make an offer for anything at your first appraisal viewing ...just hum a bit and let the seller talk his piece...unless, of course, it's "give-away-day" at the old homestead. Tell him you need to think about it (it ain't going anywhere) and discuss it with your wife. Tell him you'll get back with him in several days...let him stew a tad as HE re-thinks about it.... If, at that time, you're still interested...contact me directly via Email and I'll discuss it further with you. Art (Houston) ------- Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2002 09:45:41 +1200 From: "" Subject: Re: Looking for Logan info Dave Audette david.audettex~xxverizon.net schrieb: >>I'm picking up a Logan 7" this afternoon ( it replaces my 7" Rhodes ) and I've been looking for some/any sites with info on these machines. Tony's Lathe Archive has a little bit about them but not much and most of what he has is on the 8". I didn't even find any mention of it being chain drive. It seems like a very nice machine and I'd like to find out more about it. I put my Rhodes on Ebay and was surprised at how quickly it went. I have a chance to pick up another one ( 7" Rhodes ) that still has the original oil cups and all, I haven't decided on that one yet. I was bummed out when I noticed that the Logan didn't have any T-slots in the table. I was thinking about having another table cast for it ( there's a small foundry that will do one-off's nearby ) or maybe just drilling & tapping a pattern of holes instead. That's why I'm thinking about picking up the Rhodes as well, even though the table is open at the bottom and unsupported, the table had a pair of T-slots that will allow me to bolt work directly to it. The Logan still has the original vise, I like it but it seems somewhat limited and I'd like to be able to work without it. Any ideas/suggestions would be appreciated. Dave Worcester, Mass www.broncosaurus.net << Hi Dave, The fact that one of my shapers has T-slots while the other doesn't has given me reason to ponder the pros and cons a little. The Alba 1a has a fairly typical setup of three T slots on the top, parallel to the surface of the ram, and two on the right side, also parallel to ram travel. The left side ofthe table has no slots, but has a V groove such as one might put a shaft in. Of course, since there is no way to clamp it there, apart from maybe some large clamps across the whole table, it hasn't been used yet. Meanwhile, the AMMCO has no slots but has grooves about an eight of an inch deep, with tapped holes at the bottom. A previous owner has added a couple of extra holes to suit the vice, which is not an original but is a very good one. The left side has the same setup, with the grooves parallel to the ram, while the right side has the grooves vertical, and has a V groove in the middle. This is handy for shafts, since the tapped holes in the grooves either side can be used to hold things down It seems to me that the tapped hole approach allows more potential holding down points, because T slots must not be too close or they will weaken the table too much. Admittedly, you cannot slide a t nut along when using tapped holes, but they can be very close without too much effect on strength. The grooves are handy as you can put a piece of keysteel or other suitable stock in them to help with lining up...I have grooved the vice to allow quickly setting it in line. So my take on the situation would be that T slots are good if the table is big enough, but that for a small table, say the seven inch size of shaper or below, I would if designing consider using the groove and tapped hole approach. I think it is definitely better to have the grooves rather than just tapping, since they are such a handy setting up aid, and it does not preclude having holes elsewhere if needed...one for the vice is not in a groove. Incidently, for those who would like the best of both worlds, you can easily bolt a sacrificial piece of plate to the table that may then be tapped as needed for jobs. When it starts to look too much like a colander, replace it with another. I've just been using a similar trick on the lathe to help in mounting large cylinders...bolt a flat plate onto the faceplate with a single long bolt through the spindle, turn the end to match the bore of the cylinder, then it is really easy to set the cylinder in place and mount it with dogs onto the faceplate. You can still do some final alignment using the dial gauge at the other end. IOt is far easier than just mounting the cylinder on the faceplate then aligning it. One of the jobs I used this for was adding a recess to an existing bore. regards John ------- Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2002 17:45:31 -0500 From: "Ray Ethridge" Subject: Logan Lubrication Inbstructions Art, I have been using the Vactra No. 2 on my Sheldon, it is probably better than the no. 4, especially for those fine folks north of Interstate 10 who might have to worry a little about their oil thickening up a little in their pending weather changes. While the #4 may be just fine, especially if your machine has a little more clearance than original, I think it is a tad thick even down here where the temp never drops enough to thicken the oil. I have never seen the oil thickening problem first hand, mind you, I have only heard tell of it. Ray Ethridge Original Message -- From: Art Volz To: Metal_Shapersx~xxyahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, September 23, 2002 4:41 PM Subject: [Metal_Shapers] Logan Lubrication Inbstructions Dave-- Great haul! Now you need to find the vertical slotter attachment for your Rhodes. If I had a Rhodes, I would be embarking on an eternal quest until I found, and transported home, the slotter: and then it would be a slotter-only shaper next to my Lewis-10. Here's the "Lube Order" from a manual on the Logan-8 that Scott sent me for a reasonable price ( http://www.loganact.com ). It's for the 8, but any differences between it and your 7, other than perhaps an inch more of stroke, is trivia. The "Lube Order" didn't specify SAE weights for the oil or the grease, however, probably a SAE10 non- deterg (Best: Mobil Velocite No. 10 Spindle Oil - Medium) for rotating axles, etc; for slideways--ram & table traverse/elevation-- SAE20 or SAE30 non-deterg or Wally-Marts' El Cheapo SAE30 Bar and Chain oil (Best: Mobil Vactra No. 4 Way Lubricant - Heavy; maybe No. 2 - Light to Medium would be better?). The places that require light grease--your guess as to Brand & Type is as good as mine--a name- brand high-pressure light grease made by ??? perhaps??? LUBE ORDER: 1. Ram:--There are two OIL cups on each side of the ram provided for OILING. 2. Eccentric Drive Link:--A ball OILER is located in the top of the ram clamp screw. This assures proper lubrication to the link. 3. Clapper:--An OIL hole is provided for lubrication to tapered pin in clapper box. 4. Sprocket Drive:--A pressure fitting with cavities is located at this point on the machine, which will retain a light GREASE. This point should be lubricated once every thousand operating hours. 5. Jackshaft:--There are two OIL cups located in the bearings to assure free lubrication of jackshaft. 6. Saddle Screw (table traverse screw):--For proper lubrication of saddle screw an OIL hole has been located in each end of the saddle. (I would use waylube OIL on this screw.) 7. Link (table ratchet feed actuating link):--An OIL hole at each end of linkage for lubrication. 8. Block (crank slide block):--Open cover (side access door) to lubricate block. (I would use waylube OIL.) 9. Eccentric Arm Shaft (the pin at the middle bottom side of the column base on which the crank arm pivots):--A pressure fitting with cavities is provided to retain a light GREASE. This point should be lubricated every thousand hours. 10. Variable Speed Pulley (inside bottom cabinet):--A pressure fitting is located on the back side of the base connected by flexible lubrication hose to pulley. Use a light grade GREASE. A stick graphite or a grease with fibre base should be used for lubrication of the roller chain drive. (N.B. Mario V. recommends that all oil lubrication can be best accomplished with "Mama Mia Mafiosa" brand Xtra-Double Virgin Sicilian Olive Oil...applied with a double-sawed-off-barrel "El Lobo" "greaser". He says the 12-gauge shells come in SAE olive-oil grades too...or any grade you want: "Hey...whadja want?? Shut jer mouth!!" :-) ) PS: See the PDF file of my Porter-Cable-7 Brochure that Scott scanned into "files": It is very close to the subsequent Logan-7. Art (Houston) ------- Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2002 22:03:58 -0500 From: "Mario L Vitale" Subject: Re: Logan sprocket box [Metal_Shapers] "Dave Audette" wrote: >> I had the Logan running for a short time. Everything sounded good but it wasn't advancing the table automatically.The sprocket box turns easily when using the handle but there's *just* enough resistance to keep it from actuating on it's own. If I hold the handle on there while it runs there's enough resistance to make it advance and when the handle is removed it will continue on it's own for a minute or so but then it quits. Anyone else go through this ? I'm thinking it's just a lubrication issue but I wanted to ask. It looks like there's just a taper pin holding the box onto the shaft and the removal looks pretty straightforward. Suggestions from anyone who's gone thru this would be appreciated. Dave << Dave, I had the same problem with my Lewis when I got it. Lubrication did help a little but the real problem was the tension on the ratchet pawl had to be adjusted to put *just* a little more pressure on it. the Adjustment was a bit touchy...had to play with it for a while before I got it right. Mario ------- Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2002 23:34:59 -0400 From: "Dave Audette" Subject: Re: Logan sprocket box Mario, Yup, that seems to be the problem all right. I got it off ok and opened it up, some light grease and it was reassembled and back on the shaft. It works great in one direction but not the other and the tension just isn't right. The question is how to go about adjusting the tension without changing the spring. I don't doubt that the original spring doesn't have the tension that it used to but I doubt I'll find a replacement anywhere. I'm starting to wonder if I'll need to make a new one to get the tension right. I imagine I'll wind up with a roll of the correct size music wire and a trial and error approach. I doubt Logan has any parts left for these things. Dave ------- Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 07:43:35 -0500 From: "Mario L Vitale" Subject: Re: Logan sprocket box Dave, well, I guess you should have bought a Lewis!!! It has a nice little chrome plated screw and jamb nut that allows you to adjust the tension. That's what you get for buying that 'off-brand' stuff!?!? (just kidding Dave *and* Scott) Making springs can be a lot of fun, but from what I understand, there's a bit of black magic involved in getting exactly the desired tension/ compression. Before I did that, I would simply measure the length of the existing spring then stretch it in very small increments till it work! Good luck Mario ------- Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 15:52:11 -0400 From: "S or J" Subject: Re: Logan sprocket box Hi Dave. Absolutely agree with Mario. I suspect that my AMMCO (and its later Rockwell/Delta counterparts) share this touchy feed problem with yours. What you are calling a sprocket box on the Logan is presumably what AMMCO calls a pawl lever -- a housing that surrounds the ratchet feed gear on the crossfeed screw, and contains the spring-loaded pawl. When I got my AMMCO this was the one function that initially drove me to distraction. In my case the pawl would nearly always feed the number of teeth it was set for, but would not disengage properly (be sprung upwards) so it would then rotate the ratchet gear backwards again. The failure could be moving back all the teeth originally moved forwards, or sometimes skipping one or two so there was an erratic feed of sorts. Cleaning and oiling made it work reasonably well, but not always consistently. It was very sensitive to how deeply the pawl was set. Too far (deep into the gear) and the pawl was never disengaged by the spring. Too shallow, and it would not consistently feed. In my view the AMMCO setup is flawed by a fundamental design compromise. A clockworks or other one way ratchet and pawl are slightly hooked to give positive engagement on the forestroke, and positive disengagement on the backstroke. The AMMCO ratchet is really a symmetrical gear, as it must be to work in either direction. The pawl's tip is of very critical shape to stay down between teeth and pull one way, and lift in the other direction. Wear and tolerance on the pawl can only make the matter worse. The pawl spring tension on mine cannot be adjusted separately from the depth of pawl engagement. As a practical matter, the best one can do with the original device is to scrupulously clean and lubricate the pawl lever so that it is as friction- less as possible on its rotation around the crossfeed screw so then you only(!) need to concentrate on getting the pawl engagement/spring pressure just right. Not easy eh? Mine works fine at this moment and I will not adjust it again until absolutely necessary. When this gadget gets more unreliable, I will be motivated to try to make a better one to hopefully include the following features: - a bearing where the pawl lever rotates about the crossfeed screw; - separate adjustments for pawl depth and spring pressure; and - a ball joint for attaching the other end of the pawl lever to the feed rod to reduce any possible friction there. Unless someone else has a better idea? Please. Steve in Thunder Bay, Ontario ------- Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 20:35:45 -0000 From: "Art Volz" Subject: Logan: Ratchet Housing & Feed Pawl Assembly Dave-- I would fix it this way, and in this order: 1. Study the Logan Operator's Manual page entitled: "Ratchet Housing & Feed Pawl Assembly"--the isometric exploded drawing clarifies how the various parts inter-operate. 2. Carefully remove your housing/assembly from the traverse table screw and C*A*R*E*F*U*L*L*Y dissassemble it. Label and put parts into containers so you don't loose the lil' buggers. Do as Steve suggested: clean, remove "after market" burrs, corrosion, rust, etc, and lubricate. You may wish to make a short shaft to emulate the table traverse screw so you can manually operate the mechanism while you adjust its operation. Treat it as an operational module. 3. Although Mario's method of "tweaking" the spring will work, don't change nuthin' of the OEM parts (at least not until you really gotta): use that spring (secured in a zip-lock plastic bag to preclude loosing it and after measuring it: number of coils, current length, spring diameter (OD), spring wire diameter) to try to find several candidate off-the-shelf replacement springs for trial. Sears hardware stores, ACE, True Value, and others, all carry an assortment of springs--one may be the exact one you need. One thing I noticed about the Logan engineering staff was that they were no-nonsense old fashioned engineers who didn't believe in re-inventing the wheel--or a spring--if a standard off-the-shelf one was available. Some of the other tool distributors offer spring grab-bags filled with all sorts of wierdy springs. I may even have sitting in my "spring box" the exact spring that you need--post the measurements of your current one here, and I'll look...and send you...ones that are close...and a tad longer. Springs get "tired" when under continual compression, and start to "remember" their compressed length as being their original length. Springs be bad! 4. As Major Roger (Roger's Rangers, Revolutionary War) might have stated in his "Rules": "Don't Do Nuthin' Wrong--Do It Rite The First Time." Art (Houston) ------- Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2002 10:09:24 +1200 From: "" Subject: Re:Fine feeds...a better idea? OK, I haven't tried this, so it may have hidden pitfalls.... What I am intending to try is the use of jamming roller clutches for a shaper fine feed. I don't know if you will be familiar with the devices I mean, but they are constructed a bit like a needle roller bearing, but are arranged so that when turned one direction the rollers jam and the unit drives, while when it turns the other, the rollers run free. Now, an advantage of this is that the feed can be varied from nothing to a maximum, with any amount in between being possible. This would be done by varying the stroke from the eccentric drive on the bullshaft. The usual ratchet feed only allows feeding by whole numbers of teeth, 0,1,2,3 etc. (Usually no more than 3 in my experience.) A possible disadvantage would be that you woudn't hear the "click-click" that tells you it is still feeding. Normally these clutches only drive one way, so to be able to feed in both directions I am going to have to figure out how to have two of them and only select the one wanted. Since they are not very bulky, I don't think this will be a big problem. Both my shapers, AMMCO and Alba, can be annoying, in that when you reverse direction they need the backlash taken up before they feed. Otherwise, there is insufficient friction in the screw to make the ratchet drive. This could be mitigated by providing a friction pad somewhere on the screw. My AMMCO has a nonstandard feed, the original must have been wrecked somewhere in the last fifty years or so. The obviously homemade replacement works, but since it is so nonstandard I am quite open to the idea of improving it using the roller clutches as above. Unless of course someone else has an even better idea. (OK, CNC would be another option.....) regards John ------- Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 19:12:11 -0400 From: "Dave Audette" Subject: Re: Re: Logan sprocket box Steve: The pawl seems to be engaging properly, it's just that the entire assembly has a tendency to rotate. Another variable that I had considered last night and looked into today is the orientation of the assembly. When I saw it run at the previous location and when I brought it home to my shop the pawl (which sticks out from the center of the assembly sort of like a finger) was pointing to the 4 O'clock position. I wondered if this was the correct position for it but had to way to know. I took a look at the Porter-Cable brochure in the files section and it shows the assembly oriented so that the pawl points straight up to the 12 O'clock position. The problem is that I haven't figured out how to keep it in that position once I move it there. I'm hesitant to start playing around with the original spring since not only is it pretty old but it's the only one that I have. I hope that I don't have to replace it because making one is the only option I see if I go in that direction. (I suppose I have to learn how to do it *sometime*.) Dave Worcester, Mass www.broncosaurus.net ------- Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 19:30:47 -0400 From: "Dave Audette" Subject: Re: Logan: Ratchet Housing & Feed Pawl Assembly Art: Where can I get me a copy of the Operator's Manual ? The machine came with no literature at all ( I bought it from Kay Fisher so you'd think if there was any info available on it he would have it but no such luck ) I had the housing off of it last night to clean and lubricate the gear housing. I left the pawl assembly alone for the time being since it doesn't seem to be part of the problem. I think it's a combination of problems/adjustments. first off the feed- screw seems to be too loose. It turns very freely which is in some ways desirable but I think it's gone a bit far, when it's running and it won't advance it's like using a socket/ratchet combo on a bolt that's still too loose. You know how you have to get the bolt started a few threads on to the nut before there's enough resistance to make the ratchet mechanism work? Until there's a little bit of resistance the ratchet will just spin in either direction but once the resistance is there it will ratchet correctly. That's just what the shaper is doing. If I stand there and hold the end of the feedshaft in my fingers while it's running there is enough resistance for the ratchet assembly to work but if I let go of it then it just turns freely in both directions. Problem is that even though I can identify the problem I can't see how to adjust it so that it works. I think another contributor to the problem is the orientation of the ratchet housing. I've been using it with the pawl pointing to the 3 O'clock position because that's where it was when I saw it run and I never changed it. when I looked at the Porter-Cable brochure it showed that housing oriented so that the pawl & the direction knob were pointing straight up at the 12 O'clock position. I can move it around to the "correct" position but I'm not sure how to go about *keeping* it there. I'll probably have to take the thing off again and when I do I'll clean up and measure the springs, thanks for offering to look thru your spring box. Dave Worcester, Mass www.broncosaurus.net ------- Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2002 11:47:58 +1200 From: "" Subject: Re: Re: Logan sprocket box Often there is an adjustment for the length of the rod between the eccentric on the bull shaft and the ratchet arm on the feed screw. For instance my Alba one has a telescopic rod with a grub screw. This should be adjusted so that the eccentric arm travel is about equal either side of vertical. It needs adjusting when you change the table height by a large amount. The Alba one can get into a completely wrong position if this is neglected. Since the only thing stopping the ratchet driving the wrong way is the friction of the screw and table, they will often not drive properly unless you take up the backlash on reversing. A truly positive drive would have an additional ratchet, so that the screw could not turn the reverse way. (The same thing happens with ratchet wrenches, usually when the nut is still just too tight to take off by hand.) So the drill is swap the pawl over, then wind the feed handle until it takes up the drive. Just swapping the pawl will often lead to the feed screw just oscillating backwards and forwards. This often happens on my AMMCO, the Alba seems less prone to it. Taking up the backlash by hand means that the screw is driving the table, so you get that extra bit of friction and all works well. (Although the AMMCO has been known to stop driving part way through a cut.) regards John ------- Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 19:32:23 -0500 From: "Mario L Vitale" Subject: Re: Re:Fine feeds...a better idea? John, I've always heard those devices called a "sprag clutch". They are very effective. I'm not sure I understand fully what you are trying to do, but one way you could get reversing directions with two "sprag clutches" is have them side by side keyed to a common shaft with the key only as long as the thickness of one clutch hub. If you had a yoke with one end attached to the pawl, and the other attached to the end of the key, by sliding the yoke you could move both the pawl and the key to the appropriate sprag clutch letting the other run free!?!? Mario ------- Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 18:35:06 -0700 From: Keith Green Subject: Re: Re:Fine feeds...a better idea? I'm familiar with those (sprag?) clutches. Taken them apart, repaired, installed new...etc. One pitfall may be that those things might not give a consistant feed per stroke. Also, as they wear, the feeds will change. What's your finest feed right now? keith ------- Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2002 13:51:47 +1200 From: Tom Subject: Re: Re:Fine feeds...a better idea? giolw9r4vh001x~xxsneakemail.com wrote: > OK, I haven't tried this, so it may have hidden pitfalls.... > What I am intending to try is the use of jamming roller clutches for a > shaper fine feed. I don't know if you will be familiar with the devices 1/2" drive ratchet springs to mind, gives you reverse as well, there's plenty on the market with fine divisions... Here's a site for the roller clutches by the way: http://www.torrington.com/products/needle/rollerclutch.htm Forgot to ask, why do you want a finer feed? I find the best way to get a good finish, is to stone a flat on the tool tip, wider than the feedrate and parallel to the surface. Tom M/shop info & old machine tools. http://shopswarf.orcon.net.nz ------- Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2002 14:29:36 +1200 From: "" Subject: Re: Re:Fine feeds...a better idea? Actually I am not necesasarily trying to make the feed really fine...it just strikes me as quite an elegant solution. I can't actually tell you what the finest feed I have is, having not done the maths, but it is 1 step on about a thirty tooth rachet so is not too coarse. I don't usually use the coarser rates that are possible, since if the issue is removing metal quickly it is more likely to be done on the bigger Alba. The existing one on the AMMCO works Ok, (mostly) it is just not very elegantly made. If I do it with the sprag clutches, I would provide two. No doubt there are a number of ways to set it up so I can use one and not the other, so I'll see what looks possible. The rachet wrnech is another possibility, but part of the idea is to make something that looks better than what is there already! Anyway, I am not likely to do it in the next few weeks since I will be moving house sometime soon... regards John ------- Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 21:49:24 -0500 From: "J R Williams" Subject: Re: Re:Fine feeds...a better idea? Have you thought about using a 3/8 inch ratchet wrench handle, the one with a hex hole thru the ratchet mechanism. All you would have to do is cut off the handle to the correct length and reviose teh hex to fit the square drive, unless you could obtain a square drive wrench. There are some wrenches with a fine pitch. have fun. JRW ------- Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 21:51:12 -0500 From: "J R Williams" Subject: Re: Re:Fine feeds...a better idea? Another option is to obtain the "innards" of an old Zero-Max transmission. They are fairly small and work as would be required for this application. JRW ------- Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 23:53:14 -0400 From: "Dave Audette" Subject: Re: Re: Logan sprocket box Mario: No, that adjustment is made at the other end of the linkage. If the linkage is set to the center of the pulley that it attaches to then the feed is on the lowest setting, as you move it out towards the rim of the puller the travel increases. Dave Worcester, Mass www.broncosaurus.net ------- Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2002 03:59:06 -0000 From: "Art Volz" Subject: Re: Logan sprocket box > The pawl seems to be engaging properly, it's just that the entire > assembly has a tendency to rotate. Dave -- It shouldn't rotate--it should rock--when you look at the parts drawing you'll see what I mean. Maybe you're missing some of the original parts and are currently equipped with a "field expedient". (BTW, the best 2 components of a lot of "Green Machine" field expedients were green-colored "100 mile-per-hour-tape" [a pre-curser of the similar "Duct Tape"] and WD-1 land-line commo wire: "wire it all together and then secure and strengthen it with tape: ga-ran-teed to stay together up to and including 100mph! :-) ) The linkage, if properly assembled and with all of its OEM pieces, keeps it from rotating--it should just rock back and forth, one tooth at a time. The orientation of the ratchet wheel pawl assembly sould be generally up and rotated a tad to the rear. Dave, don't make a spring--find one off-the-shelf that works; unless you know how to make springs, and can get the proper diameter of spring wire, it ain't going to work right...at least not for long. None of the manufacturer's of machinery made/makes their own springs: they bought/buy them from spring making specialist companies. Art (Houston) ------- Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2002 00:28:51 -0400 From: "Dave Audette" Subject: Re: Re: Logan sprocket box Art, I found the problem, the inner taper pin has sheared. I got is all apart and removed the pieces. I have to find a couple of taper pins to put it back together. I need a good parts list to be sure I have everything going back together right. I didn't see anything else that looked wrong so hopefully that's all it is. I need to contact Scott and see just what's available for literature on these. Dave Worcester, Mass www.broncosaurus.net ------- Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2002 04:22:12 -0000 From: "Art Volz" Subject: Re: Logan: Ratchet Housing & Feed Pawl Assembly > Where can I get me a copy of the Operator's Manual ? Dave--You're in luck! Scott (Logan Actuator, Chicago) has Operator Manuals and Parts Lists available for all of the Logan machine tools --except the Vertical Mill of which extremely few were ever made. Click onto this URL and it will take you to the secure order page at Logan Actuator: http://lathe.safeshopper.com/2/cat2.htm?760 Look for item "PL-40" at the reasonable cost (it's even bound in a binder) of $10. Now if you want the "full first class trip" also purchase the next item "PL-41" for a C-Note and get the entire set of dimensioned drawings for the Logan shaper. While you're there, filling your shopping basket, don't forget to get a Logan T-shirt (I'm ordering mine tomorrow B4 you guys strip the shelves bare) for $18. It will make a great Xmas gift to you, to hide wrapped 'neath Alte Tannenbaum, and marked: "From Santa". Maybe you could do the same thing with the drawing set too, except mark it: "Love you Dave, From Mrs. Claus". To order your Logan Xmas shirt click on: http://lathe.safeshopper.com/2/newitem.htm?760 . >> Until there's a little bit of resistance the ratchet will just spin in either direction but once the resistance is there it will ratchet correctly. That's just what the shaper is doing. If I stand there and hold the end of the feedshaft in my fingers while it's running there is enough resistance for the ratchet assembly to work but if I let go of it then it just turns freely in both directions. Problem is that even though I can identify the problem I can't see how to adjust it so that it works. << Good observation! On the left side of the saddle where the traversing screw exits you'll see two funny looking jam nuts and a washer. Loosen these nuts, screw the inner one in a bit to tighten it, hold it and jam the outer nut against it. Try your ratchet now. Be careful that you tighten it "just right" and "just enuf" else you'll shear the taper pin on the other end of the cross feed screw which secures the "thrust collar" to the feed screw. Sorta like holding a canary by the neck: too tight and the canary has done croaked; too loose and it's bye-bye canary. Art (Houston) ------- Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2002 00:18:13 -0400 From: "Dave Audette" Subject: Success Ahh, I finally got it. After playing with it for awhile everything is back together and working properly. I just made a few cuts running under power in each direction with no problems. Sure was nice to see it working right. The final problem was in the adjustment of the drive linkage. It was bending like an elbow and wasn't able to transfer the power effectively, it has a nut that's similar to a T-nut and is supposed to allow the linkage to adjust in length but if the nut isn't running in its slot, then the linkage bends the way that it was. With everything tensioned up correctly it works like a champ. It really is a balancing act though, too tight and it binds, too loose and it flexes. Tomorrow I'll run it for a bit more time and make sure I've got all the kinks out of it and spend a little time just enjoying it. Dave Worcester, Mass www.broncosaurus.net ------- Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2002 16:03:20 -0000 From: "Art Volz" Subject: Re: Grease for Bull Gear Tom--Thanx go to Scott Logan--he posted BOTH lube "files" first at his lathe group where I found them, purloined them, and posted them here also. (Have you found the other one yet: "One...two...three, here I come!) As to a grease on your Atlas bull gear (cast iron): don't use a grease as it is partially open system and swarf and dirt can get picked up by the grease and start grinding away at the teeth. You could, of course use grease, as long as you continually cleaned the old off and put on new, but that sounds like pure S$M pleasure. Have you looked at the two US Army TMs in "files"? Both--the SB-7 and the Rockford--are using the same lube that they use on their ram slideways. Since the Atlas doesn't have a pressurized lube system and it's lubrication system is a total loss type, I would recommend a waylube, such as Mobil Vactra No. 2 (ISO VG 68) which has the viscosity of SAE 20 (NON-detergerant). The "advantages" that Vactra No. 2 has over SAE 20 Non-Deterg is it's as hard to find (I've only found SAE 20, in Houston, at TSC (Tractor Supply Co.)), it costs about 3 times as much (TSC SAE 20 2 gallons x~xx about $12; Vactra x~xx about $15 per gallon, it has special additives that reduce "stick then slip" and aditives that help it stick to surfaces rather than just gravitate off. You could also use Wallie-Martz chain saw oil, which also resists gravity, in their one gallon size for about $2-- it's a little more viscous, though, and weighs in as a SAE 30. Your choice; your dime. I've been using chain saw lube on my Lewis. If you decide to be a cheapskate, like me, ask JRW for an empty jug of Vactra...and then just decant each jug of chain-saw lube into it as needed. That way "da boyz" whom you hang out with will think you're using the high price spread. (I remember as a kid, about 1945, that if you bought margarine it came colored white--so it wouldn't be mistaken for the higher priced butter spread--and with a small gelatin capsule of yellow dye that you could mix in to fool your quests at your next din-din party.) On the other hand, maybe a stick of "I can't believe it ain't butter!" might also be useable on your Atlas bull gear: "Yellow Petroleum". I've even heard it being used--when need arised--for the higher priced petroleum jelly spread...but, not here in Houston. Art (Da Houston greaser) ------- Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2002 16:38:00 -0000 From: "Art Volz" Subject: Re: What Makes a Vise a Shaper Vise? Succinctly, shaper vises are for shapers and milling vises are for mills...as provided by the original manufacturers for their specific machines. Take a look at the PICs of the 2 shaper vises on Ebay (a few messages previous to this one) while looking at a similar jaw size current Kurt milling vise, and the differences are quite apparent. A shaper vise, generally, has much less weight (my Lewis 7- inch vise weighs only 32 lbs--a Kurt in that jaw size would be like a Nipponese wrestler in comparison); the jaws are wider and with not as much depth; they tend to open wider; the adjusting screw is normally a full-length tension screw and NOT a compression screw; they're generally not as high overall. The weight is probably the biggest difference; appearance-wise it's the look of a wide jawed vise, with not very deep jaws, and with that exposed full-length screw that are the most noticeable visual give-aways. (Additionally, shaper vises are sinless and nebuh have any vice.) Of course, as shapers faded away, many of their former vises went onto the newly bought mills-- saved bunches of bucks. Rich C. related the story that many of the wide jawed vises for the larger shapers were picked up for a song and a dance at auctions to be used for sheet metal work. On the other hand, it's sort of like asking "What's the difference between chickens?" (A dude walked into the meat market atop C. Hill late on a Saturday afternoon. Looked in the case and saw one chicken. Asked the butcher to hold it up for him so he could look at it and then asked the butcher if he had any other chickens. The butcher, still grasping the chicken from the case, said "let me look" and went into the back room. After a short time he came back still grasping the SAME chicken. He held it up for view and asked "how's this one?" The customer looked at it for a moment and then said: "I'll take both of 'em".) Art ------- Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 04:06:00 -0000 From: "Art Volz" Subject: Re: Vise for 8" Logan In Metal_Shapersx~xxy..., "ptkeillor3" wrote: > I don't believe the shaper I'm picking up has a vise. I intend to > get started with the 4" import milling vise I bought a while back > (looks like a Kurt ripoff). I was noticing in the manual (thanks, > Scott) that the original vise looks more like a milling vise than > what you folks have been describing, anyway, moveable jaw toward > operator, screw in compression. Pete-- There are two original Logan shaper vises. The first vise, the one with the rounded edges, is the vise that came from the original Porter-Cable 7-nch shaper which became the Logan 7-inch Shaper and then, with some redesign, became the Logan 8-inch shaper. This, as you mention, has a compression screw. It is known as the "10Y-ES8 Vise Assembly". The later vise, and the one in the manual for the later, slightly redesigned and improved Logan 8-inch shaper, is the squared edged "8-10W Vise Assembly". This one is more typical of the "normal" shaper vise with the tension type screw and was the one used on the succeeding Brodhead-Garrett 8-inch shaper until production finally stopped. (Today's folks at Brodhead-Garrett have no institutional memory--they've been "reorganized" several times by bottom-liners--of ever having made a shaper...or "just what the heck is a shaper...you're not talking about what my wife wears when she ...are you?" Shaper vises are generally lighter and less massive (rigid) than similar jaw sized milling vises. A tension screw applies force directly between the 2 jaws to the work and has no tendency to buckle. A compression screw applying force to the moveable jaw, and indirectly to the front jaw via the frame, and thence to the work, has to compete with a tendency to buckle. A compression screw on a shaper vise, especially a less massive one probably than a comparable jaw-size milling vise, will have a much greater tendency to buckle...especially when hammered tight by an apprentice machinist. So, of the two original vises, the compression screw or the tension screw vise, the first one or the later one, which is the best? Either of them...both of them...if you can find either one. I know of folks who have looked literally for years for any Logan vise...and without success. There were only about a thousand and a half(?) Logan shapers made; how many are still extant is unknown, and of those still alive, how many still have a vise....??? Many shaper vises, for Logan shapers too, migrated to both milling machines and to sheet metal workers over the years. If you do use a milling type vise, one which may be heavier than a Logan vise (Hey Mike F.--rounded edge vise--and Joe W.--squared edge vise--how much do your respective vises with swivels weigh?) be sure to use your table support to preclude deflection of your cantilevered table. > What's a good vise for this shaper? Either of the two Logan vises would be superb. A vise from a Shape- Rite 8 would be super...but, if you find a 7-inch jaw vise for a Lewis-10...you can't have it! It's MINE! > I've also recently contacted a foundry nearby who says they do > onesies - twosies, and will use customer's patterns. What's a good > material for a vise if I decide to make one (using the shaper, of > course)? Grey iron, ductile, Meehanite? Thanks, again. Pete Keillor A quality grey CI would be very good and so would a quality ductile CI. I sorta doubt that your nearby foundry (where's "nearby" at?) is "Meehanite" certified, but if he is, where is it "nearby" to? Art (Houston) ------- Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 11:58:15 -0000 From: "ptkeillor3" Subject: Re: Vise for 8" Logan > CI. I sorta doubt that your nearby foundry (where's "nearby" at?) > is "Meehanite" certified, but if he is, where is it "nearby" to? > Art (Houston) Very informative, Art. Thanks. The foundry is Bernier Cast Metals in Saginaw MI. I can't recommend them yet, haven't tried them. I'm new to hobby metalworking. I got started when I moved up here (Midland) from Lake Jackson, south of you. My original reason for looking for a foundry is to make some faceplates for my lathe. If and when I try them out, I'll report back. Pete Keillor ------- Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 20:55:00 -0000 From: "Art Volz" Subject: Cast Iron Grades For Shaper Vise Pete--Let us know what you find out about the Bernier foundry; foundries which used to abound throughout our once industrialized America--the America of my youth--have virtually dissappeared: where once ubiquitous they are now as rare as hens teeth, and in their place, seemingly, we have swarms of the now ubiquitous polizei of the OSHA and EPA, abetted by their liberal de-industrialist supporters. Wonder how they missed Bernier...too cold for their ponderous fannies in Saginaw? (I'm thinking of buying a Mandarin language course set from the U.S. Army's Defense Language Institute; as a Green Machine retiree I ought to get it at a reduced cost. Wonder if it's being printed in Beijing/Peking/Peiping? :-) ) Reasonably priced "Red Mandarin" face plates are available from Grizzly. They are intended for wood lathes originally and have numerous replaceable threaded inserts for adapting to various spindle threads. I have one with two inserts: a 3/4-16TPI one for my olde Craftsman tubular bed wood lathe, and a larger one for my Logan/Monkey- Ward 10 x 24. They work fine and are cheap enuf although they have ZERO American manufacturing labor input. (All workers in a Democratic Republic shouldn't be working, but be on the dole of the ruling party, right?) But, on the other hand, it's hard to find a reasonably priced faceplate elsewhere; I've gone through all of my various tool catalogs and Grizzly is the only one where I remember finding one. Now back to the subject of cast irons. Click on this URL-- http://www.bowmanvillefoundry.com/grades.html --for information on various grades of CI and their technical characteristics. If I was casting a vise, I would probably select "80/55/6 Ductile CI" both for its more than adequate strength characteristics and that it is machineable as-cast. Althought the Austemepered Ductile Irons (ADI) are quite a bit stronger, they require post casting heat treatments to arrive at that state. As-cast Ductile 80/55/6 is the way to go. Can Bernier guarantee this grade? When you get ready to make patterns for your Logan vise repro, send me a back-channel eMail and we'll discuss it. Do you live in Saginaw? Art (Houston) ------- Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 16:39:39 -0000 From: "ptkeillor3" Subject: 8" Logan Belt Drive Questions I've been inspecting the belt drive on my old Logan. It needs new belts. The belts that are on there are a 4L profile. I can read the label on one, it's a 4L340, or 34" pitch circumference. The other, according to the manual, is 40". The reason I was inspecting the belts is that the belt drive was rattling like crazy. There is about 1/4"-3/8" end play in the variable speed pulley. I noticed the motor mount plate was not pulled down tight. Is there a certain amount of preload to get the variable speed mechanism to work correctly, ie., spread the pulley flanges apart? There are several differences on this older model from the manual. The belt adjustment bell crank is mounted on a cantilevered shaft. The lube point for the vari-speed shaft is an oil cup on a piece of copper tubing which sticks up by the jack shaft pulley. The motor mount adjustment consists of two all threads threaded through the back of the cabinet to bear on the top and bottom of the motor mount. Any input on setting the belt drive correctly is appreciated. Pete Keillor ------- Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 22:31:21 -0000 From: "Art Volz" Subject: Re: 8" Logan Belt Drive Questions - In Metal_Shapersx~xxy..., "ptkeillor3" wrote: > I've been inspecting the belt drive on my old Logan. It needs new > belts. The belts that are on there are a 4L profile. I can read the > label on one, it's a 4L340, or 34" pitch circumference. The other, > according to the manual, is 40". Pete-- What manual are you using: the first one for "-E8" parts or the later one that's obtainable from Logan Actuator? What is the serial number of your machine? If your's is a c.1950 Logan-8 contact me directly by back-channel. If yours is an older machine, the last vee-belt is listed as a "#169-ES8 x~xx 46" long" while the motor belt is a "#168-ES8 x~xx 34" long" Belt width is not stated--you'll have to measure your pulleys for width at their outside diameter. > The reason I was inspecting the belts is that the belt drive was > rattling like crazy. There is about 1/4"-3/8" end play in the > variable speed pulley. I noticed the motor mount plate was not > pulled down tight. Is there a certain amount of preload to get the > variable speed mechanism to work correctly, ie., spread the pulley > flanges apart? What do you mean by "end play"--is the "#170-ES8 variable speed control assembly" (what we would call the variable speed pulley) wobbling or rocking perpendicular to its internal shaft...or is it moving back and forth axially along its internal shaft? Either way-- there is no exploded view of this "assembly" since it was out-sourced- -but since it is an "assembly" it may be that the internal high speed bearings may need "attention". Joe W. (member of this board) had a noisy/rattling bearing problem internal to his "#1C-80170 speed control pully assembly", as this pulley was called on the later Logan- 8 shapers, and corrected it by disassembly, removal and replacement of the offending bearings. When you disassemble it beware of a stout spring that may come flying out--I have some Browning variable pitch pullies and when you release the retaining pressure on the internal spring all hell breaks loose if you're not careful...and that durn spring rockets to the moon! Talk to Joe W. before you take it apart-- he's done it and has survived. (If Joe doesn't answer you right away be patient as he is trying to reorganize his shop after a recent fire.) > There are several differences on this older model from the manual. > The belt adjustment bell crank is mounted on a cantilevered shaft. > The lube point for the vari-speed shaft is an oil cup on a piece of > copper tubing which sticks up by the jack shaft pulley. The motor > mount adjustment consists of two all threads threaded through the > back of the cabinet to bear on the top and bottom of the motor mount. Logan calls it a "timer arm" but it is really a "bell crank": the older machines have the shaft upon which it rotates fixed only on the left end; the newer machines had fixing brackets for this shaft on both ends. Apparently Logan engineers had problems with this shaft wobbling in the older version. Can you fashion a retaining bracket on the right side for an extended shaft? > Any input on setting the belt drive correctly is appreciated. > Pete Keillor Art (Houston) ------- Date: Mon, 02 Dec 2002 23:07:35 -0400 From: "James E. Baldock" Subject: Sheldon 12" Ram Guard? Well, I'm back at it with the Sheldon. The only thing that seems to be missing is the Ram Guard (PN 8002-2) I'm thinking I could weld one up from some half inch stock and maybe some 12ga. to keep it looking stock. I don't have the shaper together, so some of these questions would be easier for me if I did. The original is a casting, right? How long is it? It is open in the back? The shaper seems to be the one in the parts list (published here by Lew Best) , but I have only two mounting holes? is the one center tapped to adjust a drain angle? I have loaded a pix of mine under Baldock here. Any help will be greatly appreciated. Jim -------- Date: Tue, 3 Dec 2002 09:17:37 -0600 From: "Ray Ethridge" Subject: Re: Sheldon 12" Ram Guard? Jim: Glad to hear the Sheldon is getting some attention. I did not even know that was a separate piece until you mentioned it. Mine is 11" long, is open at the back and is cast. There really shouldn't be much to drain there, I believe the holes are probably just blind tapped into the casting. There is a socket head plug (like a set screw) in the bottom, I guess if anyone wanted to they could pull the plug. The hole tapers down toward the ram, though, I would think that anything that collected would run down inside the main casting. It would be a little tricky to cast, the top as it sits on the shaper is inward at the top compared to down below. That means it would have to be cored to do it properly. I am not sure how to get it off, I assume the mounting screws come into it from inside the main casting. It looks like yours are broken off. I bet the thing would run beautifully without it. Especially if it is backed into a corner like mine where no one could get without a lot of effort. I would get the thing back together and get it making chips, then worry about the fru-fru. You mentioned wanting it to look stock, I bet 99+% of the people that saw it in your shop would not even know there was supposed to be a part there. The handle you so expertly drew up is just sitting there waiting for me to make another try at the core for it. The main pattern is done, and I made a core box out of 2x4's but as soon as I put a coat of urethane on it the 2x4's warped. Ah, yes, I remember why I play with metals instead of wood now! I have some aluminum designated for the core box, as soon as I get some time I will get that project done. Ray Ethridge ------- Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 00:06:33 -0500 From: "Dave Audette" Subject: Machine oil I'm trying to diagnose a lack of oil in a 7" southbend. All of the Southbend literature calls for machine oil and gives a Saybolt viscosity. I've looked thru the lubrication charts in the files section and don't see anything that refers to a simple machine oil. I haven't found it in my Enco catalog either. I have way & spindle oil handy and don't mind ordering more to start in on the SB but I'm trying to figure out what the equivalent is. The problem is that the ram and bull gear don't seem to be getting too much oil. I can hear the pump and see it operate and after 30 min or so of operation there is *some* oil at those locations ( yes, I know the ram doesn't need more than a film but there isn't very much dribbling down on the Bull gear in comparison to 2 other machines I've seen ) but not very much. I've only worked with two other SB's but both seemed to have better oiling than this one does. I had planned to drain the existing oil and try changing it with something fresh and of a know viscosity first. The pump seems to work but just not all that well. I'm wondering if it's an oil problem, an obstruction in an oil line or a lack of pressure. Changing the oil should address the first issue, some pipe cleaners should clear up the second and if the problem persists then I need to consider the third. The army manual ( which seems to simply be a copy of the SB literature from what I can see ) shows a pressure adjustment but I'd like to save that one for last. Any suggestions ? Dave ------- Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 06:02:14 -0000 From: "Art Volz " Subject: Re: Machine oil "Dave Audette" wrote: > I'm trying to diagnose a lack of oil in a 7" southbend. Dave-- The Army TM at "Files" which most likely is very similar to the South Bend published manual, states to NOT use an automobile engine oil or any other oil containing a detergerant; it DOESN'T say NOT to use a "SAE Engine Oil Grade"--only not to use one with a detergerant. The viscosity given in the TM of 200 seconds x~xx 100F Saybolt (SUS) is the MID-range of useable viscosities of medium weight machine oils to use--after all, an automobile engine is a machine too. On the side access door to your crank and bull gear on your SB-7 you should have a data plate entitled "Oil Specification - Shaper Pump Oil". (Do you have a door...or maybe the one mounted on a plaque on my hallway wall originally was part of your machine???) Anyway, since a reuniifcation of my door with your machine would never occur, the FULL RANGE of useable oil viscosities is given as 150-240 seconds at 100F. Then, using the chart labeled "Viscosity Equivalents", from one of the two lube documents that I stole from Scott and posted in "Files" (I forget which one--I'm using a printout of the chart page), an equivalent "SAE Engine Oil Grade" of 20-20W is easily determined. A 2-gallon plastic jug of this SAE grade is available from TSC (Tractor Supply Company) for about $12 in NON-DETERGERANT formulation. Use this oil first, until you've gotten your lubrication system working properly, and then drain your resourvoir and refill with an equivalent viscosity (see chart again) ISO VG 46 waylube if you wish. The SAE 20 NON-DETERG should, however, be all you'll ever need. > The problem is that the ram and bull gear don't seem to be getting too much oil. Since you're not sure of the adequacy of delivered oil, BE SURE to manually lube also those parts that should receive pressurized lubrication until the pump delivers the lube properly. > I had planned to drain the existing oil and try changing it with something fresh and of a know viscosity first. Do that now. >The army manual ( which seems to simply be a copy of the SB literature from what I can see ) shows a pressure adjustment but I'd like to save that one for last. Why not do, what you want to do last, first? Turn the valves depicted on page 28 all the way open for the four presurized feed lines...and then back off as necessary. Make sure you re-read, and re-understand, all four of the lube instructional pages in the Army TM: pages 25 thru 28. Art (Houston) ------- Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 13:36:07 -0000 From: "matt_isserstedt " Subject: Re: Machine oil system Here are a couple of thoughts, in no order, if you have to get into the lube system... - Leak at pickup First I don't know much about the lube system, but if there is *any* air which gets entrained from the pickup to the pump you will lose oil flow rapidly. - Wear in gears I'm assuming a spur gear oil pump (automotive style). The end clearances make a big difference in pump performance, even .002" difference will produce a very noticeable difference in flow. I had a problem with some oil pump gears once which missed the "brush deburring" step and had sharp edges & corners, they produced significantly more flow until they rapidly cavitated because of the sharp edges. - Lack of restriction If you have a leak on the pressure side with little or no restriction compared to the other lube points you're interested in, then of course the max oil flow will go there (to the unwanted leak). - Positive drive Not likely considering you already have a little flow. But if there is some problem with the mechanical drive to the gearset then this could create problems. - A radical thought You might consider reverse flushing the ports with something similar to brake cleaner & its plastic straw (if accessible) to try to chemically cut any restrictive crud. This will of course remove lube and you'll need to supplement with hand lube as Art has mentioned previously until the pumper (hopefully) kicks back in. Good luck, keep us posted. -Matt ------- Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2002 03:25:35 -0000 From: "jpkull " Subject: Re: Machine oil Hi Dave, you can find info on machine oil viscosity at: http://www.mcmaster.com/ Search for "Machine Oil" Jim ------- Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2002 18:39:30 -0500 From: "Dave Audette" Subject: Re: Re: Atlas 7B, switch & wiring From: "Steve Uphill" >>>[SNIP] I have just discovered that the machine has been wired up in reverse, so its been driving backwards for heaven knows howlong, is this likely to have done any harm? <<< I've read some debate on the merits of running a machine backwards. Some think that it will stress previously unstressed areas and promote failure and others think that fresh unstressed areas will now be taking the strain and the lifetime of the parts will be extended. I don't know that anyone has resolved it. That being said I know of several shapers running backwards and had a 7" Rhodes that was also wired backwards and ran in reverse. The machine didn't seem to suffer any and I never had any problems with it. It's not what you'd want in a production environment but for a hobby machine it's probably just fine. Dave Worcester, Mass www.broncosaurus.net ------- Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2002 18:29:35 -0600 From: jrw Subject: Re: Re: Atlas 7B, switch & wiring Steve: Running a shaper drive backwards would be contrary to the main feature of a mechanical driven shaper, a slow power stroke with a rapid return stroke. J. R. Williams ------- Date: Fri, 27 Dec 2002 18:38:40 -0500 From: Al Subject: Informative Tidbit & Toolslide Question I recently decided to shape a set of soft jaws for my Wilton vise, using my 7" Southbend, my favorite machine tool. Having been away from it for a while, some reading jogged the old memory and in the process I came across this tidbit that I'd like to share with you. "An important point in shaper construction and operation may be emphasized here. The shaper manufacturer takes the utmost care to have the clapper block fit the box. The bearing surfaces are scraped to provide the best sliding fits with no shake, the axis of the hinge pin is exactly at right angles and consequently the block hinges freely in the box during the return stroke and is rigidly supported during the cutting stroke. The bearing surfaces should be wiped clean and a very little oil applied at least once a week. If the bearings are allowed to become dry or gummed with old oil, or if for any other reason the block does not always seat properly, trouble will surely result." Following this advice, I gave my clapper and box a good cleaning, and the bearing surfaces and hinge pin a double dose of oil. I noticed an anomaly in my downfeed, however, that I have a question about. This discovery came about from doing some vertical shaping. Prior to this I had only shaped and fed work horizontally on the machine. It seems that when the tool slide is run down about half way, there is unacceptable play and sideways movement in the slide (the ball crank turns very lightly almost on its own). Continuing past the half way point downward, there is increasing and extreme tightness (at the lower end the ball crank can hardly be turned at all). Several attempts to adjust the gib only resulted in removing the play for running the slide downward to about the half way point, then beyond that the crank can hardly be turned at all. Could this be due to a bend in the tool head screw, the gib itself, or maybe wear in the dovetails? How can I diagnose and correct this? It certainly limits my ability to shape vertically. Thanks in advance for any assistance. Al ------- Date: Sat, 28 Dec 2002 13:35:09 EST From: anthrhodesx~xxaol.com Subject: Re: Toolslide Question It appears to me you've already demonstrated that the problem is wear in the dovetails. You might additionally try backing off the gib screw so that the slide can easily be moved slightly from side to side, then feed the slide from one end of its travel to the other. If it feeds freely when not constrained by the close fit of the dovetails it suggests that the screw is not the problem. (I say suggests because it might be that when the slide is loose enough to lift slightly it might not reveal a slight misalignment or bend in the screw.) To be more decisive about the truth or otherwise of the dovetails you would need to measure both the base and the slide for consistency of width and parallelism of the dovetails. Anthony Berkeley, Calif. ------- Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2002 06:04:01 -0000 From: "metalchipster " Subject: Re: Shapers in Central Georgia >>>Terry, sounds like you have a serious case of the shaper bug! I may have some questions for you when I get my Rockford home, sounds like you have some experience there. The weather is supposed to be pretty bad here today so I will probably haul it in tomorrow. Ray Ethridge <<< Hello Ray, I'm no expert by any means but I have done a lot of playing with my shapers. I've taken all three of my shapers completely apart so I've got a lot of experience there. I'll be glad to answer any questions you may have. If your shaper has the automatic hydraulic toolslide (power downfeed) DO NOT take off the cover and attempt to remove the input shaft (clutch shaft) without being very, very careful. This compartment contains the clutch which is filled with small needle bearings that will fall out when you remove the input shaft and are very time-consuming to put back on the clutch. Also, do not let your hydraulic fluid get contaminated (especially with water). Or, better yet, drain the whole lot and replace it before you do anything else. When you get the hydraulic fluid drained and before refilling, be sure to put in new (or clean the old ones) intake screens and a new filter cartridge (I've got good sources for replacement of both screens and filters - I replaced all of mine with new stuff - I didn't want to take any chances with contamination). Be sure to clean out the sludge before refilling the tank. Also, before you drain the old fluid, check the fluid level sight glass for leaks. Repairing sight glass leaks is easiest when the tank is low or empty. Make sure you get all of the handles and cranks that go with the machine. They're hard to find (the safe ones with the clutches built in). Be careful with those crank shafts (screw shafts) that stick WAY OUT from the cross ways! They can be easily bent by a fork lift if you're not careful. Good luck with getting your big boy home. Terry ------- Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2002 17:52:29 -0600 From: "Ray Ethridge" Subject: Re: Re: Shapers in Central Georgia Thanks for the info. If you have taken yours apart you are WAY ahead of me! After seeing how much this sucker pulled on the chain hoist I am not sure I want to take it apart! I got the bigun home and unloaded this afternoon. You were right with your weights, it was 6100 pounds plus maybe three or four gallons of Diesel at the DOT scales. It does not have the power downfeed so I don't have to worry about the needle bearings. There were no handles of any kind with it, I will have to fabricate some. The toolpost that is on it is a solid bar, I will probably have to fabricate a lantern toolpost as well. I will definitely drain all the hydraulic fluid, replace it, and clean out the sludge. It appears it was overfilled, I lost quite a bit on the road and it is still above the mark on the external level vial, but I want to get it clean anyway. After I get into it I will want to replace the filters, can you tell me where you found the filters so I can do that? I meant where can you buy them, I have the manual that shows me where they are. It looks like the hydaulics are made by Vickers, maybe some standard ones from them? My serial number is 93 CM 91 so the year is obviously not imbedded in that, do you know how to find the year of manufacture? This was on a plate below the "ulic" in the "Hydraulic" nameplate, is that where you find your serial numbers? Thanks, Ray Ethridge ------- Date: Wed, 01 Jan 2003 17:43:41 -0000 From: "Art Volz " Subject: Re: Shapers in Central Georgia Ray--Does your clapper have the locking spring and screw on top of the clapper as I said I saw in the TM in a previous message here? Have you determined if it has the hydraulic piston behind the clapper? A serial number of "93 CM 91" (are you sure it's just "CM" or is it "CMD"?), when compared with the serial number list that I have, indicates that your Rockford was probably built in CY1954. My serial number list shows: CY1953: 88xxx90 CY1954: 94xxx70 The "xxx" is the model type of various possible types: OGN, PMO, CMD, RMH, etc. Maybe yours is just a two-letter model, where a max of 3 letters is possible. But, I think you found your serial number, and your Rockford was most likely manufactured in CY1954...much "longer in the clapper" than I previously suspected: didn't you tell me that it was supposed to be a CY 1976 machine? Art (Houston) ------- Date: Wed, 1 Jan 2003 12:24:04 -0600 From: "Ray Ethridge" Subject: Re: Re: Shapers in Central Georgia Art, I do not see the spring mechanism or the screw on top of the clapper. I do not think it has the hydraulic lift mechanism. I got the clapper to work after I pulled the locking screw out. MAN, that tool bar is heavy! I do not have a pipe wrench big enough to take it off the clapper, will have to figure out something else. There is a very large straight slotted plug behind the clapper, it must be just a plug for the hole where the hydraulic lifting mechanism would go if I had it. It looks like I just got the basic shaper, but with the universal table. The serial number is 93 HC 91, had brain fade between downstairs when I read it and upstairs when I typed it. I guess I am lucky to remember the 93 and 91 part that long. The guy had originally said '76, but when I picked it up he said it "might" be mid fifties. At any rate, the original scraping marks are still visible on the cross slide ways and probably on the others as I get them cleaned up. Age really doesn't make a lot of difference if it has light use! I bet it can still curl some pretty large chips. My reply to your question about the manual came back, my email s still not working flawlessly. The manual is an original Rockford issue, but when looking through it most eveything looks real familiar. Ray Ethridge ------- Date: Thu, 02 Jan 2003 01:43:08 -0000 From: "metalchipster " Subject: Re: Shapers in Central Georgia Your serial number of 93 HC 91 indicates your shaper was made in 1954. That is the new (improved) Rockford design. Vickers made the pump but they don't supply filters. Parts and manuals can be obtained from DeVlieg Bullard. They bought out Rockford: DeVlieg Bullard Services Group 1-800-248-8125 Depending on your shaper model, DeVlieg Bullard may not be the best place to get your filter replacement parts. After checking availability and price I found Flow Ezy Inc. was the best place to get filters and sump strainers. Flow Ezy is the manufacturer and will not sell to you directly. They will, however, give you the name of a distributor/retailer near you that you can order through. Filters & Strainers: Oil filter (round canister type): Flow Ezy model FL-12 (1/4'' inlet port). You may have to use two 1/4" to 1/8" brass reducers depending on your installed cannister connections. This canister filter is no longer available from DeVlieg Bullard. They now use the twist-on cartridge type filters used in automobiles. You can convert your shaper to use these type filters if you want. I decided to keep mine "original" since the original filter is available from Flow Ezy (and cheap). Sump strainers: if your old intake strainers are not usable, first contact DeVlieg Bullard for their price and availability. Then contact Flow Ezy to see if they're cheaper. You'll want 100 micron strainers. My older shaper took two model # 20-1-100 sump strainers. I don't remember (and didn't write down) my newer (1973) shaper's numbers. You will order the sump strainers like this: model 20-1-100 stands for 20 gpm flow with a 1" screw-on connector with a 100 micron screen size. First, determine your pump (mine is a Vickers V-135-20) and from that determine its gpm flow rate at its recommended RPM from 0 to 1,000 PSI. My older shaper's range was from 19.5 gpm x~xx 0 PSI to 18.0 gpm x~xx 1,000 PSI so I needed a 20 gpm sump strainer. I ended up getting all of my filters and strainers from Flow Ezy because they were cheaper and available right then. Flow Ezy, Inc. P.O. Box 1749 Ann Arbor, MI 48106 (734)665-8777 toll free 1-800-237-1165 http://www.flowezy.com Once you get the old hydraulic fluid out of your shaper you can then go to the Flow Ezy web site and compare what's available from them to what you need for your shaper. Good luck, Terry ------- Date: Wed, 1 Jan 2003 20:45:47 -0600 From: "Ray Ethridge" Subject: Re: Re: Shapers in Central Georgia Terry: Thanks for the wealth of info. I should have the hydraulic oil out tomorrow and will be looking for the filters and maybe the screens then. The old shaper really cleaned up well this afternoon, the ways still show the original frosting everywhere and the paint even looks pretty decent after getting after it with some simple green. If all goes well I may have it fired up by this weekend. It looks like my largest problem so far is this specialized tool holder that is attached to the clapper. This thing is apparently galled onto the mounting bolt, I can just barely turn it with a chain wrench and a four foot cheater (hanging my 210 pounds of dead weight on it!) but it spins the through bolt. The bolt is apparently a homemade job that has two pin holes for a pin type spanner, but no way could a pin spanner supply the torque I am having to put on it to turn it. I guess there is a possibility it is loctited together. I will try heat before I remove the clapper and start sawing it off. I will also have to go invest in some larger wrenches, this thing has lots of large nuts I don't have wrenches for. Thanks again, Ray Ethridge ------- Date: Thu, 02 Jan 2003 10:24:05 -0000 From: "knutketil " Subject: Elliot 10M question I am refurbishing a Elliot 10M shaper and have a problem removing the toolhead from the ram. It should be possible to rotate the toolhead but it appears to be completely stuck to the ram. Just behind the toolhead there is some kind of bolt - is that bolt used to hold the head ? This bolt can not be undone, it just rotates about half a turn and then stops. (Even with this bolt in the middle of the "loose" position the toolhead can not be moved.) Am I missing something important here, or is it just a question of applying enought WD40 and brute force ??? Rgds, Ketil ------- Date: Fri, 03 Jan 2003 07:33:02 +1300 From: Tom Subject: Re: Elliot 10M question Have you checked up inside the ram? Tom ------- Date: Mon, 06 Jan 2003 17:41:04 -0000 From: "gdabrowski " Subject: Porter Cable shaper drive I've managed to re-assemble my recently purchased PC shaper and make a couple parts to replace those that were missing. It came without a vise so I had to adapt an available 4 inch import to it via a beveled disc as the original. The feed ratchet had been altered or replaced which resulted with only one feed of .025 inch per stroke available. The newly made part returns the machine to the factory feed specifications. Works great. I'm back in shaper heaven again after selling my Atlas a bunch of years ago. During trial runs at higher stroke speeds I noticed a distinct odor of V belt. Any Porter-Cable owners in the group (or even Logans as they used the same drive system) have a similar experience? Looks like the motor belt is the culprit, as it shows much more abrasion on the sides than the belt to the machine. I'll be getting into troubleshooting this thing later this week and could use some opinions as to corrections. Sheaves are in-line more or less so belt angle is not likely an issue. Sheave bevel surfaces are free of junk and are smooth. ------- Date: Mon, 06 Jan 2003 16:30:21 -0600 From: jrw Subject: Re: Porter Cable shaper drive I would replace both belts as it is necessary to remove the cross shaft for the speed change unit. You may need to add more tension to the motor side which also effects the final drive belt. I changed out both the belts on my Logan and that improved the operation. The next thing to check is the side ways movement of the tension system. JRW ------- Date: Mon, 06 Jan 2003 21:38:10 -0000 From: "twolluver " Subject: Source for Variable Pitch Pulley I am new to this group but hope that with its wide membership someone can help me out. I have a Logan 8" shaper that uses a variable pitch pulley assembly with phenolic flanges as part of the speed control. The flanges have worn so that the interior surfaces are concave rather than straight. Because of this wear pattern the speed does not adjust uniformly. Does anyone know of a source for a surplus pulley. I was hoping someone may have a Logan shaper that they are parting out. I have checked with Logan Actuator and they have no such part available. Any advice will be appreciated Regards, Ron Leap ------- Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2003 16:29:53 -0600 From: "Mario L Vitale" Subject: Re: Source for Variable Pitch Pulley Ron, I'm afraid I can't help you with finding replacement parts, but, depending on how badly yours are worn, you might consider taking a clean up cut on the flage faces, providing, of course, there is enough stock thickness. For that matter, if you have the time and inclination, making a replacement set out of aluminum would be a good lathe project! Good luck, Mario ------- Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2003 18:05:46 -0600 From: Mike M Fendley Subject: Re: Source for Variable Pitch Pulley I've got a Logan 8" with the pulley you mention. I've found two such pulleys on different machines in scrap yards. One now resides on my drill press (got tired of changing belts) and the other was headed towards another drill press, but in the mean time I discovered VFD's. If you're still interested email me off line at: mikejanf (at) juno.com and I'll see if I can find it. It may have gone on another machine and is gone. Another option that I have seen great sucess with on machine tools is the variable speed pulley off an MTD riding lawn mower. Yeah, I know, sounds dumb . . . until you pay your $60 and get it. All steel with needle roller bearings. Same set up as the Logan plastic pulleys only it doesn't have the "laced fingers" and is a slightly larger diameter (about 1" larger). So if you're willing to do some slight mods, the Logan/MTD might be just the ticket! Mike in LeClaire, Iowa ------- Date: Tue, 07 Jan 2003 08:44:14 -0000 From: "metalchipster " Subject: Re: Shapers in Central Georgia "Ray Ethridge" wrote: > Mac, > I have only heard mine run once, but it did not seem all that loud. It reminded me of the hydraulics on a quiet electric fork lift combined with the sloshing noise of a washing machine. It will definitely be louder than the Hendey unless the Hendey has a knock or something, but I would be surprised if it made enough noise to be objectionable. It was very smooth, with no rocking or vibration at all. I hope to have the power run for the machine this week so I can give you more of an update. The first order of business is to try to figure out the wiring on the motor, it came wired 440 and I have to convert to 220. Preliminary checks have shown that although the motor plate clearly tells you how to hook the motor up for 220 and 440 by the numbers there is no numbering on the wires whatsoever! As far as the hydraulic seals blowing hydraulic fluid all over the place, there is minimal chance that will happen because all the hydraulics are inside the machine base which also acts as the hydraulic reservoir. They could have some pretty serious leaks and you would not know it unless you opened the cover. Well, I take that back, there is a hydraulic hose to the table feed mechanism that could leak, if that happens you would have a mess. Just check it out thoroughly and you shouldn't have a problem with leaks. > Good luck with your decision, that is a tough one! Ray Ethridge Ray: Here are two links to web pages that give valuable info on identifying motor types ("Y" or Delta) and how they are currently wired (440/220/"Y"/Delta, etc): Use this link to determine motor type and current wiring: http://www.internet-business.com/ppr/tutr-mot.htm#Single9y Use this link to re-wire from 440 to 220. This is especially useful for re-wiring when the leads are not marked. Using an ohmmeter you can determine what leads are what: http://www.usmotors.com/Service/faq9.htm As best I can remember, both of these links deal with 9-wire motors. I have used both of these links to identify motors and re-wire them from 440 to 220 on a lot of my machines. The techniques work well. Good luck, Terry ------- Date: Sat, 4 Jan 2003 07:17:16 -0600 From: "Ray Ethridge" Subject: Re: Re: Shapers in Central Georgia Terry, Thanks for the great links! I started disconnecting the leads on the shaper motor to start the ohmeter test, and found the numbers marked on the undersides of the lugs that were screwed together to make the connections. Once I found them on the shaper motor I went to the lathe, took one of the connections apart on it and the numbers were in the same place. All I gotta do is go by the numbers after all! Sometimes you get lucky. Now it is just a matter of running the wires and building the phase converter and I should be making chips. Ray Ethridge ------- Date: Tue, 07 Jan 2003 15:37:35 -0000 From: "matt_isserstedt " Subject: Phase Converter I do have some phase converter info here if you or others are interested ...I suspect that you will need a larger motor than my 3hp version. http://www.metalwebnews.com/howto/3ph-conv/3-phase.pdf PS: I am not sure of the size of this download. -Matt ------- Date: Tue, 07 Jan 2003 14:55:36 -0000 From: "matt_isserstedt " Subject: Got the Steptoe Working Last Night! I should mention this is a 14" Steptoe-Western machine, vintage unknown but I suspect a newer version. This was initially not a fun project, cutting a 5th junction box into my 3-phase system all piped in with 1/2" EMT around the shop. But after some grunting and some choice words, I had power where I needed it. The supplied NEMA size 0 motor starter already had a 220vac coil so I was all set, just strip the old power wire pigtail out and get ready. One interesting note, the General Electric instructions pasted to the inside of the enclosure cover on how to wire the motor starter and overloads had a revision date of 12/66, so I'm thinking that the shaper had to be built around that time or later. I had replaced the 3 rotted v-belts just after I moved the machine into the shop on Saturday from my storage unit. The belt guard is most impressive, a 3/16" thick steel deep drawn cover!!!! The old belts were A-53s and I replaced with brand new Goodyears. I got out my oil can and cycled the ram by hand using the motor pulley in slow motion, using Vactra #2 oil to saturate the running surface of the ram. Then, it was time for a trial by fire. I selected the lowest speed, and engaged the clutch. The shaper sprang to life, oil pressure came right up to 3psi per the manual, and I could hear oil spraying inside the column, and I moved my way up into the speed range. I was having a little problem on the ram return stroke and the clutch output shaft would visibly slow down. I think the v-belts are slipping a little, I was somewhat hesitant initially about putting on too much tension and cooking a bearing. However, the problem seemed to go away after the machine ran for a few minutes (oil warmed up?). I have yet to cut any metal, as the above "air-cutting" took me WAY past bedtime. But this is a task for tonight, get the cross-feed ratchet setup and make some chips! The tool downfeed is a little stiff, but I think the gibs might be mis-adjusted, as the middle setscrew was replaced with a longer socket head. The gears are a little noisy, but I think they're all straight-cut spur gears mounted on tapered rollers, so I'll take a little noise for some durability! So I'm grinning like a kid at Christmas; just itchin' to get back home later today for more "testing". I'm thinking of an oil & filter change. Oil might be the simpler problem, the nameplate specifies Mobil Vactra Oil Heavy Medium. Seems easy enough. Problem is, I already have Mobil DTE Heavy Medium and Mobil Vactra #2, all ISO 68 viscosity, but aren't exactly the same. The DTE appears to be a superior product based on the Mobil catalog as it is listed in "Premium Circulating and Hydraulic oils" while the Vactra Hvy/Med is listed under "Secondary Circulating and Hydraulic oils". The filter is just truely a moment of despair. I don't have any info on it and I feel like opening the housing might not ever get it sealed back up again and end up making things worse. Surely this is a purchased component rather than being built by Western Machine Tools. Anybody have any information or have replaced this part on their machine? Anyway, I hope to be curling some steel later tonight. ------- Date: Wed, 08 Jan 2003 05:03:25 -0000 From: "metalchipster " Subject: Re: Serial # and Shaper Testing/Learning "matt_isserstedt wrote: > OK, Art, my serial number is SW12X350. > I cut metal today, light slow cuts, then moving up to a heavier cut. > Still I was having problems where the ram would slow down on the > *return* stroke, almost to the point of stopping. Strange. Finally > I just happened to have my oil can handy and started oiling the > ramway with Vactra #2 as the ram was exposed on each stroke. Things > smoothed out almost instantly! Even as such I had oil pressure on the > gage. I opted to pour about half a gallon of DTE Heavy/Med down into > the casting, as I realized how low the sump had gotten in the filler > elbow, and this eventually overflowed when I shut off the machine > and oil started to drip back down. Oil which came out was a nasty > dark red-brown color as opposed to the clear golden initial > condition of the DTE....surface rust methinks. > > I opened the compression fittings for the four lube lines to the > ramway and clear lube came out all four under pressure, so it seems > like I'm getting lube, and the filter seems to be working. > > I also committed another boo-boo when I inadvertently reversed the > stroke by going over-center....divisions were obscured ...thus > feeding the table while in mid-cut. This stalled the clutch out > taking a 1/16" deep facing cut getting towards the center of a 2" > CRS round slug at 80 strokes/min. > > So, it was a learning experience. I don't think i damaged anything > permanently, but it was a little close. Amazing finish on a > light cut with a little Cool Tool 2 cutting oil.! > > I also found that I need some better leveling. The shaper is > rocking when the ram strokes, and I can modify this a little with a > steel setup wedge, so I need a better plan than > present....apparently the slab isn't very level. Before trying to any more chips with your Steptoe I would recommend checking out some things. In your earlier post you mentioned that your clutch output shaft was slowing down on the ram return stroke and that you suspected your new belts were slipping. You stated later that this problem went away after the machine warmed up. It is more likely that it was the clutch itself that was slipping and when the plates heated up and expanded that this reduced or eliminated the slippage. If it is indeed the clutch that is in need of adjustment you might damage it if you try to cut more chips before you make this adjustment. I would recommend that you check for this condition before cutting any serious chips. It wouldn't take much for a slipping clutch under load to wear away what linings remain. Also, since you are having to oil your ramways you might have some passageways that are stopped up. With a pressurized oil system you should not have to be oiling your ramways manually. You know you are getting oil pumped through your lines but its not getting to your ramways. I would give your passageways a thorough check. I doubt it would be rust but more likely sludge. Good luck, Terry ------- Date: Thu, 09 Jan 2003 07:21:26 -0000 From: "metalchipster " Subject: Re: Shapers in Central Georgia Mac: The automatic toolslide down feed is much more useful than the automatic table up feed. That is because the toolslide can be fed down automatically while the table is being fed horizontally automatically. When you use the automatic table up feed you lose the automatic table horizontal feed. Another disadvantage would be that when using the automatic table up feed your cut must always be a 90 degree vertical cut since the automatic horizontal movement of the table is disabled when using the automatic table up feed and the table only allows 90 degree movement. Of course you could always manually feed the table horizontally but it wouldn't be in sync with the ram. If your intended cut was to be a 90 degree vertical cut then YES you could use the automatic table up feed as an automatic work advancement up method (outcome would be the same as the automatic tool advancement down). The tool head on the Rockfords are made just like most other shapers. I don't see why you couldn't add an automatic down feed to it. You wouldn't want to do it like Rockford did it (with clutches and stuff) but you could do it like some others have done with their shapers. As an alternative, you could even tap into the hydraulic line that feeds the table movement. This would provide an easy way to synch your tool advance with the ram movement. You could also easily add an automatic clapper lifter this way (tapping into your table movement line). All you need extra (besides piping and connectors) is the little hydraulic piston/cylinder adapter that replaces the standard clapper screw. I don't know what it would cost to buy it but you could probably make one. I think that it would be a nice project. Terry ------- Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2003 22:11:16 -0600 From: "mac campshure" Subject: Re: Re: Shapers in Central Georgia Hi Terry: I do have the hydraulic clapper. It is nice that the table feeds up for 90 degree work; my Hendey has power down feed but I only have 12 inch capacity with the Hendey. O well I sure am not complaining, I am very pleased with both machines and am excited to get the Rockford going, that will be some time yet I'm afraid. If you see a Junker with the power down feed could be stripped off, please let me know. That would be my best bet. Thanks again for taking the time to answer my many ? regards mac ------- Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 10:31:40 -0000 From: "matt_isserstedt " Subject: Tales From the Crypt...Lube Oil Filter Yes fellows, a true horror story. I screwed up my courage and I had to take apart the oil filter on the S-W lube system. There's a petcock on the bottom so I thought I'd drain this down first. Hmm, that stuff looks a lot like water. Hmm, that stuff IS water. My estimate is that about 1/5 of the volume was filled with water. While this is indeed scary, at the same time the unit appears to have been doing its job. Next I loosened both compression fittings and the mounting bolts and drained this over my auto oil-drain pan. Inside, a cartridge oil filter, kind of like my old tractors, with "Replace P-48" punched into the porous metal "screen" enclosing the pleated paper. It seemed OK, smelly & oily, but a lot of white gunk came out of the bottom of the cup also. Not sure if this is a reaction between oil & water or some other crud built up and captured. Again, a good sign of the filter doing its job. So, now I'm searching for a replacement part. There are absolutely no manufacturer's markings on this...it looks like a standard commercial part, so I contacted Filter Supply America after a google search and I'm awaiting a reply. If anyone is interested, the element is 4" dia, 5" tall with a 3/4" hole thru the end-caps (larger internally) for the retainer bolt. More to come, I'm contacting Mobil Industrial lubes today to help me sort out the "Vactra Oil Heavy Medium" spec on the side plate today. Hope this comes in a 1 gallon size... -Matt [Atlanta] ------- Date: Sat, 11 Jan 2003 02:52:13 +0000 From: mariol.vitalex~xxatt.net Subject: Re: Tales From the Crypt...Lube Oil Filter Matt, I suspect the white stuff is Water/oil...just like what comes out of my air compresor tank when I remeber to drain it!?!?!? What's even funnier, the oil filter size and description sounds very much like the filter on my 1961 Morris Minor; maybe not quite 4" in diameter but close! Now that I think of it the oil filters on XK-140, XK150 Jags were the same style but a bit bigger. If you really get desparate, you might check with Moss Motors...Just don't put any Lucas electrics on it!!!! (you remember Joseph Lucas, the 'Prince of Darkness' don't you. Mario ------- Date: Sun, 12 Jan 2003 16:45:34 -0000 From: "Art Volz " Subject: Re: Phenolic gear ? > Thanks, Art. How can you tell? I'm acquiring a SB tomorrow and the > brief inspection I gave it the other night looked like the bull gear > was metal. Even if it is Phenolic, how often do they need replacing? > Al Messer Al--The best way to tell would be by using a magnet to see if the bull gear is magnetic or not. A phenolic gear is non-magnetic. It also may be colored--some folks with AMMCO's tell me that their phenolic gears are reddish, maybe the SB's are also of this color(??). The other "info/scuttle-butt" I've heard is that the SB phenolic bull gear has angled helical teeth, but that doesn't mean that a ferrous metal bull gear, which apparently SB also used, couldn't have either straight or helical teeth. I've posed the question on this board of trying to determine by serial number a pattern of when each type of bull gear was used, but VERY few group members posted anything...which is normal around here. I asked that question also of LeBlond, the current parts supplier for South Bend machines, and they essentially re-asked me the same question as to what the serial number was, etc. South Bend being virtually one of the still walking dead, the institutional knowldege is rapidly evaporating if it hasn't completely done so already, at their last known digs in the old Studebaker Engineering building...if they haven't already been evicted...again. (The biggest boss's young and good looking secretary is always the 2nd to the last to leave, and, if she's a "good" secretary she has absolutely NO institutional memory...or any memory storage assets upstairs at all. From Blonde to LeBlond...I imagine. :-) ) Buying an old machine is a risky business which the buyer must recognize as being HIS self-assumed risk. Nothing is ever the way it once once: new parts from LeBlonde, virtually one-offs on-demand should be guite expensive and expect them to be so. I have no idea what, if anything, was transferred to LeBlond other than "most" of the parts drawings: expect to pay through the nose for new parts...and especially so for new bull gears of whatever type. Be sure that you take with you a good flashlite with sufficient batteries to inspect EACH AND EVERY tooth on your bull gear. Missing or damaged teeth will be fun to fix especially if it's phenolic...and should be a point of dramatic downward price negotiation...as should any other deficiences found. Also take a squirt can of non-deterg lube oil with you--SB calls for SSU 200 x~xx 100F--I forget (where's that chart--it's in "Files") what viscosity that is, but a readily purchaseable can of 30SAE NON-DETERG motor oil at ACE Hardware should suffice for check-out purposes. Also take an extension cord just in case the seller "can't find it anywhere". (I have an over-filled huge toolbox in my van with tools that can open up virtually anything...from one of Ray's Bullard buddy bullies to a can of emergency rations Trappey Texas style beans. I've got a P-38 on my keychain for the beans too.) Run the machine. See if shafts wobble (= bent) and if you have any "doesn't look rights" or funny noises. What you buy is what you get once you're out the door. All that having been said, I myself would prefer a ferrous bull gear and, if I had my druthers, a helical toothed one. When you look it over make sure that you have downloaded, and have thoroughly read, the SB Army shaper manual in PDF format in "files" here. It contains more info and parts drawings/parts list that the original SB "How to Run a Metal Working Shaper" doesn't have. For instance, if you don't have the little round access plate on the left side of the shaper column, to the left and slightly lower than the larger cover access plate to the crank, your model doesn't have a lubrication pump. What that means is that besides all of the other manually oiled items, you now will be responsible for lubricating PROPERLY--before, DURING, and after operation--the ram slideways, the rocker arm shoe (slider and slideways in the crank), bull gear teeth, and various other critical bearings. Even if your shaper has a pump there is no insurance that it works properly until YOU are assured that it does. The pump has a mechanically lever-operated plunger, that makes a one-shot squirt each back-forth cycle of the crank lever and gawd knows what has accumulated both within the pump mechanism and the feed tubes over the years. Take a small cup and glass jar and decant a couple of cup loads into the glass jar. Then look at what's swirling around inside the jar sticking their tongues out at you. Betcha that stuff looks too good! You should have oil in the sump whether you have a pump or not: no oil take warning--it ain't been getting no lube! Also, the SB lube system doesn't have a filter that I can find on the parts drawings--used oil that finds its way back to the sump comes back the way it is and is recirculated without filtering: a BAD design for a pressurized lube system. Keep us posted...and I hope you land a "gud 'un" at a fair price. Art (Houston) ------- Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 15:23:17 -0000 From: "Mathiscoosbay " Subject: 1905-6(?) Cincinatti 20 QUESTION The newest date on the "Patents" brass plate on the R side of this old girl is Dec 12, 1905, states "other applications pending", Cincinatti Shaper Co.... I'm posting a couple of new pics in the Folder "Cinci 20". There's a stud with adjusting nuts that require a spanner wrench to move them on the back L side of the main body of the machine, holds a piece of angled metal that looks like it might be a gib. Could anyone tell me for sure what this adjustment "thingie" is for? It looks like there is not any other way to even attach gibs that I can see on this machine, no screws along the sides of the ram way or anywhere else. How do I know when the gibs are set right anyway, this ram is so heavy I think it will be difficult to tell if there's any play no matter what (well...that's assuming I ever get it broke loose again in the first place)? How would you guys go about cleaning the rust off the ways before attempting to slide the ram? Thought about light scraping but afraid I might do more harm than good. Appreciate any help or suggestions you might have. Thanks! Tim ------- Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 01:37:47 -0000 From: "ptkeillor3 " Subject: Logan 8" Lube Point for variable speed pulley Hi. I am replacing the original copper tube with the Gits cup that fed the variable speed pulley. It was damn near inaccessible sticking up (barely) between the v-belts, and I mangled the tubing while changing the belts. I've replaced it with a greasegun hose, which has the same 1/8" pipe thread and won't be bothered by the movement of the adjustment arm. I intend to drill a hole in either the back sheet metal or the cast iron base to fasten the other end of the hose. I'll fasten with an 1/8" pipe coupling and plug for now, and get a 1/8" mpt Gits later. Does anybody know how thick that base casting is? I'm leaning towards drilling through the back sheet metal because it's thinner and will make up about right when I stick the hose end through and screw on the coupling. Only thing is, I'll need an ell later for the Gits cup, and it'll stick out the back about an inch. Still, at least it'll get oiled regularly. Any input? Pete Keillor ------- Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 04:04:15 -0000 From: "ptkeillor3 " Subject: Re: Logan 8" Lube Point for variable speed pulley > Pete: My shaper manual shows a 'zerk' style grease fitting on the > back of the base housing for application of a light grease. A 'Gits" > style oil cup would apply too much oil to the pulley area and > also lubricate the belts. Joe Williams Mine is older, and shows the Gits. However, I went and grabbed the manual I got from Scott Logan, which is for the newer version, and you're right. As a matter of fact, it even looks like a grease gun hose. Grease makes a lot more sense. Can you think of any reason I shouldn't update? Thanks. Pete Keillor ------- Date: Sun, 26 Jan 2003 23:30:32 -0600 From: Mike M Fendley Subject: Re: Logan 8" Lube Point for variable speed pulley Pete: Check out the shaper pix in the shaper group under Logan. http://photos.groups.yahoo.com/group/metal_shapers/vwp?.dir=/Logan&.src=g r&.dnm=Logan+Custom+Motor+Mount.jpg&.view=t&.done=http%3a//photos.groups. yahoo.com/group/metal_shapers/lst%3f%26.dir=/Logan%26.src=gr%26.view=t This link shows a custom Logan motor mount very similar to the original cast iron one. I drew it up for a guy who needed to make a mount since his Logan 8 was minus the mount. The next link is a picture of my original mount. I put a "quick disconnect" on my motor wiring so it would be easier servicing the motor (capacitor and bearings) by just unplugging it instead of un and re - wiring it. Has saved me a lot of time on numerous occasions. http://photos.groups.yahoo.com/group/metal_shapers/vwp?.dir=/Logan&.src=g r&.dnm=MotorMountTxt.jpg&.view=t&.done=http%3a//photos.groups.yahoo.com/g roup/metal_shapers/lst%3f%26.dir=/Logan%26.src=gr%26.view=t Mike Fendley, LeClaire, Iowa ------- Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 10:37:51 -0600 From: jrw Subject: Re: Re: Logan 8" Lube Point for variable speed pulley Pete: I would go for the grease fitting and a low cost flexible hose solves the problem with fittings. easy on the grease application. I installed new belts on my system and plan on going back thru the system when time permits as there is a light 'rattle' when the unit is running. It may be I need to increase the 'base' tension on the motor belt. Joe Williams ------- Date: Fri, 07 Feb 2003 18:06:24 -0000 From: "jmartin957 " Subject: Rhodes Shaper I have owned a Rhodes No. 1 (7") shaper for some years. It is probably an older one, as the address on the body casting is Hartford, Conn. - and I believe that they were later bought by Ames and moved to Massachusetts. Did Ames ever change the address on the casting? Has an ancient GE 3/4 hp motor on an angle iron frame attached to the base. Drive by V belt to a jackshaft, V belt from that jackshaft to a second jackshaft, then a 3-step flat belt pulley from the second jackshaft to the machine. Jackshafts run in what appear to be homemade pillow blocks - Babbit-filled lengths of pipe welded to steel bases. Only change I made to the machine was to put a piece of 1/8" plate between the body and base castings, to keep oil from dripping down onto the shelves in the base. Mine did not have a drip tray. Guess maybe I'd better put a drain plug there before it gets too full. The table has three T-slots, whereas all the pictures I have seen show only two. The center slot is slightly larger than the others so it might not be original, but it looks it. The vise is original. Only complaint with it is that the shoulders on the nut, which serve to lock down the movable jaw, have rounded somewhat over the years. It looks like they have been built up with welding rod at least once. May have to make a new one one of these days. Can anyone tell me where the serial numbers are on these machines? I may have seen it when I had it apart for cleaning, but have forgotten where it is. Many of the parts are stamped with a 66 (or maybe it is a 99), but this I assume was just used to keep the parts together in the factory as it was being fitted. The steel plates on the top of the body that hold the ram down have brass strips on the underside (over the ram only, not as shims between the plates and the body). Are these original, or were they later fitted to compensate for wear? The pinion that drives the bull gear has always woried me a bit, as the teeth are much thinner than those on the bull gear. I do realize that teeth vary in shape depending on their number, and that on a small pinion they may have a significant undercut. Do you other owners also find the pinion teeth much smaller? I gather that some people have the slotter attachment. Am I right in assuming that these, and the tilting table and rotary table attachments, are next to impossible to find? John Martin Cumberland, Maine ------- Date: Sat, 08 Feb 2003 04:30:04 -0000 From: "mikehenryil " Subject: Re: Rhodes Shaper The S/N should be on RH side of the main body casting (as you are facing the shaper) in between a couple of the gib adjusting screws. Don't know if they changed raised address on the casting - mine has the same address but dates from right around the time that Ames bought Rhodes (S/N 2413). You can see a (poor) picture of mine here: http://member.newsguy.com/~mphenry/shop.htm and some more pics here: http://member.newsguy.com/~mphenry/web%20gallery/index.htm The latter shows a few close ups as well as one of the CI jackshaft bearings on mine. I think mine has an original vise and the table has only 2 T-slots. The jackshaft is driven by a Butler motor and a chain drive. There are no brass strips on mine and the ram seems reasonably tight, but I don't know if the brass you have is original to your shaper's vintage or added by a previous owner. The pinion and bull gears on mine appear to be the same width. There seem to bbe around 8-10 Rhodes owners on-line in the places I visit but I've only heard of a couple that have the slotting attachment and no one that has the tilting table or rotary table. I suspect that few of either were sold and that most of the latter ended up getting used or sold for other purposes. ------- Date: Sat, 08 Feb 2003 19:15:21 -0000 From: "jmartin957 " Subject: Re: Rhodes Shaper Mike: Mine is a bit different. The body casting says: NO 1 L. E. RHODES HARTFORD CONN On yours, the pivot for the actuating arm appears to be closer to the front of the body than the back. On mine, it is pretty much centered. The cast iron base on mine fits the body perfectly, so I am sure it is Rhodes. It has a large door in the right side, and ribs to support wooden shelves. The base does not have any of the ears for the motor or drive support, and I am guessing that it was designed to run from an overhead lineshaft. I could not find any serial number. By gib screws, I presume you mean the gibs for the ram. Nothing there on mine. Just the "66" stamped on various parts. Does your's have similar numbers? I noticed that yours has three small (screw?) holes on the right side of the body casting, just forward of the feed mechanism. Mine has two there. Always wondered what was meant to go there. John ------- Date: Sat, 08 Feb 2003 19:43:33 -0000 From: "remlapfluke " Subject: Re: Rhodes Shaper I might can shed some light on the gear teeth question. Over time the pinion gets much more wear than the bull gear. Its not uncommon to wear out a few pinions to one bull gear on mechanical devices. The individual teeth probably started out the same size on each gear. Thats the only way they can work together. If you can see wear on one side of each tooth of the pinion, you might flip that gear 180 degrees and wear on the other side. Hope that helps. Jeff ------- Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 03:41:25 -0000 From: "metalchipster " Subject: Re: Smith & Mills Nebel Machine Tool Company (owner of Smith & Mills Shapers, Inc) gave me these directions for finding the serial number: If you are standing in front of the shaper facing the toolhead, the serial number should be stamped on the flat spot facing you on the left-most of the column just above (or could be below) where the ram slides in the column dovetail. I never found the serial number on my shaper (25" Smith & Mills). I scraped all of the paint off the column faces and around the edges for two feet. Somebody just failed to stamp mine I guess. Operating & repair parts manuals are available ($50) at: Nebel Machine Tool Company & Smith & Mills Shapers, Inc. 3640 Llewellyn Cincinnati, OH 45223 (513) 681-4409 or (513) 541-4031 If you call, ask for Charlie. He is very knowledgeable about Smith & Mills shapers. They also have some parts for the shapers. They also have all of the original design blueprints for the shapers and can make parts that are out of stock or will sell you a copy of the blueprint so you can make your own. Nice folks. Good luck, Terry ------- Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2003 07:34:52 -0000 From: "Art Volz " Subject: Re: Time saved > > Yes Art, I can see no time is saved by the quick return. > > It is merely a matter of having the cutting stroke occur when the > > bull gear is applying the most leverage.RPM is the only thing that > > speeds things up. Carl > If there was no quick return, the shaper would spend half it's > time on the return stroke. By having a quick return mechanism, > it means that more than half, closer to 2/3s of the time in a > given cycle is devoted to cutting. This ratio differs between shapers. > It's not so much about time saved as increased productivity. Tom Tom--There is absolutely NO increase in productivity. For a crank system, one revolution of the crank (bull wheel) always equals one stroke. If the bull wheel of a straight 50%/50% slider crank shaper and the bull wheel of a 67%/33% crank arm "Quick Return" shaper are revolving at the same RPM and with the same ram stroke length, the metal removal rate, per cycle, will be EXACTLY the SAME for both shapers, no more and no less. What does happen, as I stated before, is that a more perfect, more constant speed, cutting action occurs when a "QR" shaper mechanism is used. It takes 17% of the time out of each cycle from the retract portion and adds it to the ram portion. This added time allows the center portion of the ramming velocity curve to be flattened or SLOWED DOWN. A more constant ramming velocity allows for a more uniform cutting speed and force thus improving the quality of the cutting action at the "cutting edge". No more...no less. David J. Gingery, in his 1981 classic "Build Your Own Metal Working Shop From Scrap--The Metal Shaper" (pp 63-64) stated it more succinctly: "THE FAST RETURN STROKE" "Because the lower pivot is closer to the center of the crank than the upper pivot, the return stroke is faster than the forward stroke. If you reverse the rotation of the crank the forward stroke will be faster." "In early years, the makers of shapers had a lot to say about their 'Fast Return Stroke' shapers. Since it must make both a forward and return stroke to each cycle, I fail to see how a fast return stroke would have any effect on the production capacity of the machine, even though the 'Hot Air' salesmen had a lot to say about it." "It's a fascinating action to study though, and makes it a lot more fun to demonstrate the machine. See if your friends can figure out why it does it." In Lindsay's 1988 re-publication of Fred H. Colvin's 1943 classic "Planing, Shaping & Slotting" (p. 78) there is a time- dispacement-velocity diagram for a "Quick Return" shaper which he apparently "borrowed" from Cincinnati. Here you can visually "see" how the time taken from the retract portion and given to the ram portion of one complete cycle flattens the ramming velocity curve by making it take LONGER to do. (BTW, Colvin's book is a good one to add to libraries if Lindsay is still printing it. The Lindsay stock number was 4988.) Art (Houston) ------- Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2003 21:50:06 +1300 From: Tom Subject: Re: Re: Time saved Like I said, the cutting stroke timewise, is longer, so it is self- evident that in effect, the cutting tool is being geared down, the benefit is that for the same revolution of the bull gear of a non- quick return shaper, the quick return shaper can take a "heavier" cut. That is where the increased productivity comes from. To equal the force on the non quick return shaper tool bit, would either require a reduction in speed or an increase of horsepower. Less productive.. Quoting Dave Gingery at me, cuts no ice, I prefer men who put their money where their mouths were: Whitworth, Sellers, Bement, Hulse, Tangye, Butler, Flather, Putnam etc. According to you & Dave Gingery, manufacturers have been wrong for close on 150 years? Yeah, right! Of all the engineering books I've consulted on the quick return mechanism, none have raised the "supposed anomaly" that you have. The thrust has been toward maximizing cutting time out of every minute, no reciprocating tool can come close to cutting availability of a rotating tool, thus the demise of the shaper.. As for flattening out the velocity curve, this really didn't happen until the adaptation of allowing the oscillating lever to float instead of being constrained at both the bottom pivot and the ram end. Some achieved by a ball & socket arrangement at the ram others by a link at either one end or the other. BTW, why would I wish for reprints, when I have the original editions? Tom ------- Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2003 22:47:36 +1300 From: giolw9r4vh001x~xxsneakemail.com Subject: Re: Re: Time saved Well actually it is not as simple as all that. Remember that the tool has a maximum cutting speed. Beyond a certain point it will overheat at the edge. This is not a linear function of speed, eg there is a speed it will survive and not much faster it will fail very quickly. So the quick return lets the tool spend more of the time actually cutting at something like the maximum rate, eg it is cutting 2/3 of the time (approx) plus the flatter curve means that it is able to go at a higher mean speed without exceeding the allowable peak. This will give higher productivity. To put it another way, if you have the quick return you can safely raise the motor speed above what you would use for a crank. I don't mean any massive increases of course, maybe 10 to 20% at best. But that sort of increase is worthwhile in mass production, Henry Ford would have been pleased to get it. Also I would guess that many shapers do not have enough different speeds to be able to always run at the optimum speed for metal removal and tip life. regards John ------- Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2003 13:19:35 -0000 From: "John Odom " Subject: Re: Time saved I have very much enjoyed this discussion. Of course the machine makes one stroke pre revolution of the bull gear, and the strokes per minute is the same as the bullgear RPM. So, FOR A GIVEN RPM there is no productivity increase. However, for a given maximum linear cutting speed, the quick return mechanism permits a higher RPM. It also provides greater force om the tool for a given RPM and horsepower. This allows deeper and/or wider cuts. Both of these factors, if properly taken advantage of, can contribute to increased productivity. I had a small fire in my house on the morning of Feb. and am still in a motel. I note plenty of opportunities for time saved and/or productivity increases on the part of the carpenters and painters. Staying in a Motel decreases ones own productivity as well. John Odom ------- Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2003 08:45:01 +1300 From: Tom Subject: Re: Re: Time saved Apparently I haven't made myself clear enough. Quick return crank shapers, the benefit of: We have two 3 hp shapers, one with quick return and one without. The quick return shaper has a ratio of cutting to return stroke, of 3 : 1. The configuration of both shapers is taken as the same. The non-quick return shaper has equal cutting & return strokes so is only cutting for 30 seconds in every minute, so that's 3hp x 1/2 available to remove material = 1.5 hp The quick return shaper has a cutting stroke of 45 seconds in every minute, so that's 3hp x 3/4 available to remove material = 2.25 hp. Disregarding the fact that no shaper cuts the full length of a set stroke, the comparison shows that the quick return shaper can supply more horsepower to the toolbit than a non quick return shaper at the same rpm. More horsepower at the cut, means a greater material removal per minute. Something that's been evident in shaper manufacture ever since Joseph Whitworth invented his quick return action. Tom ------- Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2003 21:40:28 -0000 From: "remlapfluke " Subject: Im running a 50/50 shaper now All this discussion about a quick return vs 50/50 shaper is interesting. My shaper is of the old 50/50 type. Equal time in both directions. Its an American Tool Works 20" 2 speed trans. 4 steps on the old flat belt cone pulley. Bullgear looks to weight 300 or so pounds I would guess. Its simply a crank pin in a scotch yoke for adjustment. Cool thing is it has a scotch yoke like deal for adjusting cross feed of the block also. This deal is mounted on the side of the shaper and rocks back and forth while shaping. The Ratchet and Pawl are also external. The side door has a window and the steam engine like action can easily be watched while shaping. Im guessing this is much simpler than the more modern shapers. I have no idea of its age. Anybody got an idea? Does anybody in the group have one of these shapers? Jeff ------- Date: Thu, 20 Feb 2003 18:56:11 -0600 From: "LEW BEST" Subject: RE: Sheldon Shaper > Does anyone know what a "Sheldon type 14 shaper" would be? > A Google search turns up nothing. Don Kinzer Hi Don: An educated guess would be a 12" like mine (posted in the photo section under Lew's shaper; also the manual is in the files section). It's called a 12"; but according to the manual has a stroke slightly over 14". It's the only size shaper Sheldon built to my knowledge. Hope this helps! Lew ------- Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2003 18:12:43 +1300 From: giolw9r4vh001x~xxsneakemail.com Subject: Re: Mill Vise on a Shaper? The really important characteristic of a shaper vice is that it is a good solid one. So a good solid milling vice will do very well. A swivelling base is a handy feature. But the non original one that came with my Ammco doesn't swivel, and being slightly too big for the machine it would be hard to arrange. I never found this to be too much of a problem. On the other hand, I have used this feature on the vices I have acquired more recently. I'd avoid the type of light vice that is sold for holding work on a drilling machine table. The consequences of the job pulling out of the vice can be quite dire, to say the least, so it is important to ensure that the job is as secure as possible, especially if you have to grip with the vice jaws aligned with the ram stroke. There is also much to be said in favour of clamping jobs directly to the table where possible, although not all jobs lend themselves to this. regards John ------- Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2003 00:16:25 EST From: maytagtwinx~xxaol.com Subject: Observations on starting up a South Bend 7" shaper. Hi all, I am a newbie to using a shaper, even though I have been accumulating for years. Retirement, time and space are finally lining up to allow for some enjoyment of the accumulation. So, today, I decided to see if I could make chips with the South Bend 7". I have read the manual, followed discussions on this site, watched a video, and generally educated myself way beyond reason. The first thing that I noticed was I couldn't get the cutting tool to adjust to a steady height. Too high, or, hitting the work and jamming and stopping the shaper. I gave my first attention to the drive system and found a loose set screw in the large pulley on the motor drive side, and a belt that was a little slack. I tightened the screw and applied some belt dressing. That had the effect of allowing the tool to smack the side of the work with much more vigor. Then, I noticed that when I did have it cutting, the vise was rocking a little. I stopped and tightened the tap that holds the vise. The rocking stopped but the tool height adjustment was still problematic, either too shallow or smacking the side of the work. Now, when I bought the shaper and brought it home, I noticed the clapper was locked with a set screw. Loosening the set screw and spraying with Gibbs allowed the clapper to swing. By carefully watching, I observed the clapper was NOT seating all the way down and, when the tool hit the work, the clapper then dug in and seated. That was the cause of the height adjustment difficulty. Spraying with more Gibbs didn't help. So, I drove out the tapered hinge pin and examined the sides of the clapper. They show no signs of wear and, indeed, still have the grinding marks South Bend put on them in manufacturing but no signs of any wear. After spraying and wiping and cleaning it was still tight. So, I took the risk of honing a little metal off the sides of the clapper, getting out my diamond knife sharpening tool and using it to hone the sides of the clapper. It took only a few strokes on each side and the clapper was swinging freely. I then reassembled and cranked it up and WOW! It adjusts and it holds its adjustment all the way across the workpiece. I then thought...will it go faster? So I moved it progressively from its slowest to its fastest speed. The chips do smoke when jumping off the work. Neat! I had sprayed and lubed and generally made a lubricated mess of the shaper before cranking it up. Now, while it is running, I can see it is pumping oil up onto the ways and they will NEVER wear as they are flooded. So flooded, in fact, that oil is running down one side of the shaper. I dug out the little channels at the ends of the ways so oil can return to the inside and that helped, but it is still pumping more than it needs. I will read the manual and attend to adjustment later. Things to do that I can see at this point are: find some bolts to fit into the stand adjustment so the shaper can rest on them rather than the castor wheels as it does dance a little on the highest speed. Also, I intend to drain the oil and clean the bottom of the oil reservoir and then refill with the proper oil. I have a one quart can of South Bend oil I bought at Blue Ridge Supply and am looking for more. Finally, I removed the piece of steel that the shaper had been chewing on and took it to the bench. The finish was slightly rough. A few stokes of the aforementioned diamond stone brought out a smooth, almost polished finish. I think some attention to tool grinding and cutting fluid will work wonders. While sitting and watching the South Bend make its cuts, I gave thought to magnetically mounting two microswitches, one at either end of the table travel, to serve as limit switches so that the shaper can work on its one, stopping after each travel. It won't take much of a switch, as the motor is only 1/2 HP. Thank you for your patience and, for the inspiration I gain from this group. Regards, Ron Carroll Clearmont, Missouri ------- Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2003 09:13:49 -0000 From: "Art Volz " Subject: Re: Observations on starting up a South Bend 7" shaper. Ron-- Interesting commentary. Thanx for the good read. The set screw in the side of the clapper box may have been used to fix the clapper while slotting. Art (Houston) ------- Date: Sat, 01 Mar 2003 00:12:19 +1300 From: giolw9r4vh001x~xxsneakemail.com Subject: Re: Observations on starting up a South Bend 7" shaper. I have a simple circuit on my Ammco to allow automatic shutoff at the end of a cut. In order to keep mains electricity away from the front of the machine, I made a circuit that works at low voltage and pulls in a low voltage relay that drops out a contactor, This also means that the machine now has a push button start/stop, and will of course drop off if the mains is interrupted. This is desirable since you don't want a shaper to start because the machine got left switched on by mistake. The same job remains to be done on the two bigger ones.... A good finish can be obtained with a V shaped tool with a small flat at the tip, such that the flat is just wider than the amount of feed per stroke. You should be able to make any friends with mills envious of the finish you can get. I use a diamond wheel to sharpen the tools, or rather a series of them in increasing fineness. regards John ------- Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2003 16:37:30 -0000 From: "al_messer " Subject: Re: Observations on starting up a South Bend 7" shaper. Sounds as if you're making real progress. To keep the oil from running down the side, make sure that it is setting absolutely level. This will cure the problem, or rather, it did for me. Re: lube oil--I get Mobile Vactra No. 2 Way Oil from Travers for about $12.00 per gallon. Al Messer ------- Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2003 13:00:26 -0800 From: "larry g" Subject: Re: Re: Sheldon Shaper Don: I figured that the rocker arm looked to be an old repair and that it had seen some use since then. The rocker arm was installed in the reverse position so that the welded section is stressed under the return stroke. We'll see. I am debating whether to put a brace on it, or fabricate a new one. If I do fabricate one it will be closed on the front making a U channel for the follower block to run in ala the big Cincinnati machines. Right now I don't foresee any real heavy work for this machine so I've got some time. In the auction what you seen was it. So I'm on the lookout for a vise and handle. I stuck a milling vise on it to get it going. A lathe bit holder for the tool and made some chips. I fabricated a new backgear handle. It took some restraint not to put a nice chrome Hurst handle on it. I've got to pull the backgear out and clean it up some as the grease is set up, and it shifts very hard. I admired the tool holders that you posted pictures of and found the prints that Art Voltz supplied, so I will be doing some fabrication around that area too. If you're near the Enchanted Forrest give me a call and I'll let you have a test drive. lg ------- Date: Sat, 01 Mar 2003 00:51:29 -0000 From: "remlapfluke " Subject: Re: Mill Vise on a Shaper? I have been cutting with a 6" milling vise in my 20" shaper for the last 6 months. For one, the milling vise has to be really bolted down tight! Most shaper vises have 4 bolts, my milling vise has 2. First thing I did was push the vise right off the block. Not good. I now have the right sized shaper vise for it but off a different kind of shaper. My T slots are 11/16 at the top. The keys on the bottom of the vise are 7/8. Spacing on my block 8 1/2". On the Vise 8". All this because different times/manufacturers but vise is from a 20" shaper. Also different sized shapers have different spacing on the T slots, etc. So you may have to machine the vise you think is perfect for your shaper. I hope this info is of help to you. I get alot of good info from this group, just trying to give a little back. Jeff ------- Date: Sat, 01 Mar 2003 01:38:37 -0000 From: "Merril Mabon " Subject: Hold Tite ! 55 years ago in Metal Trades Vocational School, we were taught when holding a vise to a table or a metal object in the jaws, to cut an appropriate size piece of paper and place it between the table and vise or next to the jaws on each side of the machined object. I'm sure this is standard procedure with many members, but maybe not to all. It makes a big difference in how secure the set-up is. When I hear about a tightened vise scooting across the table when the cutter makes contact, my thought is one thickness of last nites "Daily" might have made a big difference as far as safety goes and the project outcome. Merril ------- Date: Sat, 1 Mar 2003 00:16:35 EST From: maytagtwinx~xxaol.com Subject: Re: Observations on starting up a South Bend 7" shaper. Hi John: Thank you for the suggestion on the safety concerns for the limit switches. If I build such controls, I will incorporate a safety device to make restarting a deliberate act. Also, thank you for the suggestion on tool sharpening. I will see if I can make improvements in my grinding and sharpening skills. Regards, Ron Carroll Clearmont, Missouri ------- Date: Sat, 1 Mar 2003 00:23:04 EST From: maytagtwinx~xxaol.com Subject: Re: Re: Observations on starting up a South Bend 7" shaper. Hi Al: Thank you for the suggestion on leveling. I am looking for some screw in feet to put on under the factory cabinet as someone took the original ones out and they are lost. Once I find some, I can select a place to park the shaper and level it out. I would image I should level across the ram ways and also lengthwise on the ram ways. I will read the manual for guidance and I do have a decent Starrett machinist's level so it should work out all right. Thanks for the oil identification and source, too. When I was at Blue Ridge, they pointed out they had only the one can of South Bend oil, and I got it. They didn't seem to think they would be getting any more. Who knows? Regards, Ron Carroll PS: I am delighted to be blessed with excess oil rather than wondering if the oil pump is plugged up or worse. At the worst, I can drill a hole in the table and set a pan underneath to catch the excess, then run it back through...:>) ------- Date: Sat, 01 Mar 2003 11:46:51 -0000 From: "Art Volz " Subject: Re: Observations on starting up a South Bend 7" shaper. Ron--What size thread? I make my own adjustable leveling feet from suitable size carriage bolts. The rounded head sits atop a pair of screwed together large washers (a pair of counter-sinked flat heads in one washer and tapped in the other) which self-adjust to angular differences in the floor surface. Gravity (the weight of the machine) holds the washer set "glued" in place as the rounded head partially sits down within the upper washer of the screwed together set per foot. Nuts and washers are used to adjust for proper elevation with the squared portion of the shank immediately above the rounded head allowing holding with a wrench to control rotation of the carriage bolt. Cheap and simple...and off-the-shelf ACE hardware: a good Sunday project when the major tool retailers are shuttered up. Art (Houston) ------- Date: Mon, 03 Mar 2003 16:29:41 -0000 From: "bmarsh1402 " Subject: Re: Observations on starting up a South Bend 7" shaper. Ron: Depending on your purpose, you may be able to do without the limit switches. The South Bend shaper has a feed screw on the table that "runs out" at either end, the shaper will continue to run, but the table will no longer advance. You can leave it basically "unattended" without worrying that it will destroy itself. This can be very usefull on very fine cuts that take a while to complete. You can work on something else in the shop while its taking its cuts, just check on it occasionally. You can usually do this by "ear" just by listening to the cutting action. Best Regards, Barry Marsh ------- Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2003 18:59:02 EST From: maytagtwinx~xxaol.com Subject: Re: Re: Observations on starting up a South Bend 7" shaper. Hi Barry: Good point. I will check my machine to see if it complies with your description. If I were working at or near the full cross travel of the table, your suggestion is right on target. Thanks for the info. Regards, Ron Carroll Clearmont, Missouri ------- Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2003 19:07:57 EST From: maytagtwinx~xxaol.com Subject: Re: Re: Observations on starting up a South Bend 7" shaper. Hi Art, I like your suggestion of how to make up leveling feet. So far as size of thread presently on the machine (It has "ears" with threaded nuts where the missing feet should screw in welded to the base of the stand, factory design? I don't know) I have stuck a thread gauge into the nuts and it looks like 10 TPI. The size seems to be a little over 3/4" but so far I have found nothing at the local hardware to fit. But, I have a box of Chinese made leveling pads that are hefty enough to carry the shaper weight and motion. I think If I don't come up with something from the hardware I will make some brass bushings to mate the Chinese pads to the South Bend shaper. It should not be hard to make them and they won't even need to be internally threaded as the nuts on the pads can carry the shaper weight. Regards, Ron Carroll Clearmont, Missouri ------- Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2003 12:55:12 -0800 From: "larry g" Subject: Sheldon Type 14 The shaper I bought at auction a couple of weeks ago is in actuality a Type 14. This is stamped on the nameplate on the front of the machine, as well as the S/N which is 8-9029. Is there a reference available that dates this machine? On the lubrication plate the machine is called a Sheldon 12" and is also stamped with the same S/N. After cutting, measuring and indicating on the machine I'm happy with what I'm finding. I measured the maximum stroke on it and it will do a 13.5" stroke. lg ------- Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2003 15:19:18 -0600 From: "Ray Ethridge" Subject: Re: Sheldon Type 14 LG, I checked mine and sure enough, I have a Type 14 as well, never cleaned the grease off that plate enough to actually read it. The lubrication chart on the operator side clearly says Sheldon 12" shaper and that is what I have gone by as long as I have had it. That incidentally is what the manual calls it. My serial number is 8-8971 so mine predates your but not by much. Somewhere I got that it is a mid 50's machine but can't remember the exact source. You are the only person I have seen that referred to it by the Type 14 number, most people just call it the 12" Sheldon shaper. Yours is not different apparently, you just can read better than the rest of us! Ray Ethridge ------- Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2003 03:04:39 -0000 From: "dreilanderecht" Subject: Re: Metal Shaper Videos--PART II [NOTE: THIS MSG FOLLOWS A BRIEF REVIEW ON SOME MACHINE VIDEOS LISTED IN THE Metal Publications TEXT FILE] Even if it was an excellent video, it would still only cover the idiosyncracies of one particular machine. I still think we can do better by simply posting in the files sections a bit of an outline of our favourite interesting job. There is already some good stuff there in the form of manuals for various shapers. OK you say, not the one for *my* machine, but if you are trying to learn to use an unfamiliar machine, anything is helpful. Shapers are pretty idiosyncratic machines anyway, so you are going to have to learn the little quirks of your particular one. To take some examples. of my three, two have the table move away from the handle when you turn clockwise, while the other comes towards. (or is it the other way around??) The two of the same brand actually go the opposite way when you turn the handle in a given direction. (OK, that's the British for you....) Then there is the choice of pitch on the feedscrews. I've already had a gentle dig at the Ammco for having 13 tpi on the down feed originally, OK it was a Sellers thread, but why use that on a downfeed? But then, the Alba 1A has 6 tpi on the crossfeed, which quite frankly does not make a great deal more sense. Unless you think 166.6 recurring is a good number to calibrate onto a dial! This probably explains why the Alba does not have a calibrated dial on that feed. Actually, the Ammco appears to have originally had no calibrated dials, the Alba 1A just has the calibrated downfeed, supposedly 90 thou per turn although I suspect it is really 11tpi, 90.9 thou per turn, and only the Alba 1S has all three, down, cross, and table rise all calibrated, and all with sensible numbers too. There are endless variations in positions of controls, especially stroke adjustments. Speeds are going to differ too. So I guess what I am saying is that a new shaper owner is going to have to teach themselves quite a lot anyway. I know learning styles differ, some learn better in a class, others by reading a book and then doing, and so on. Well, the state of the art with shapers is that really classes are not going to be available, and you are going to have to either learn from a book, or from places like this, or find a benevolent guru who will let you into his workshop and show you a bit. (I like a dark beer myself, hint hint) Actually, you could do worse than attending classes in the use of the lathe and mill if you are new to machine tools in general. A good knowledge of setting up and holding jobs on these will stand you in good stead for shaper work. ------- Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2003 20:00:19 -0500 From: "Rigrac" Subject: Re: Re: What for and How to Use Planer Shaper Gages I believe planer gauges in question are used to check and set the height of the blades used on a woodworking thickness planer. Ron ------- NOTE TO FILE: It only took a few general searches on the Internet for "shaper" or "planer" to quickly realize there must be a thousand hits for a woodworking machine -- for every metalworking machine mentioned. That metal-hit success is probably too large, maybe 1 in 10,000 is closer. So unless a metal shaper or metal planer is specifically identified in any ad or posting outside of a metal group, we can fairly safely assume the person saying "shaper" or "planer" has only common woodworking machines in mind. Makes us a minority, but at least all our toys are thus rare collectables and not dirt-common modern woodworking junk. Now some of those measuring gauges or jigs used in woodworking could be adapted to our setups -- an admirable and generous action in the interest of elevating some lowly device to a far higher and most respectable cause. Why, bless us, after all we are homeshop METAL machinists. ["No sir, that was not a piece of curly maple you saw me stroking with an antique woodworking plane when you came in unannounced; it was probably just some scrap firewood. No you can't throw it on the fire for me! Get out of my shop...right now!!"] ------- Date: Thu, 03 Apr 2003 09:21:28 -0600 From: Fred LaVenuta Subject: Re: Re: What for and How to Use Planer Shaper Gages I do not know what the original use for planer gages was, though I suspect they were used to set the tool height in shaper and planer jobs. Now, we use one to dress the wheels on our surface grinders. Because the diamond holder can be adjusted up and down over a wide range, it's not necessary to lower the wheel almost to the height of the magnetic chuck to dress it and this can be a real time saver if a tall part is being ground. ------- Date: Thu, 03 Apr 2003 19:55:35 -0000 From: "Art Volz" Subject: Re: What for and How to Use Planer Shaper Gages Larry--you have discovered an innovative ("outta da box") use for a planer gage. Hadn't thought about using it as such. Would probably also work well for setting blade heights on radial arm saws...I'll have to experiment with that. And, maybe, for setting the cutter height (router and shaper arbor adaptors) on my c.1950 Atlas Model 1020 drill press. I've always wanted to find a use for my planer gage. Thanx! Art (Houston) ------- Date: Thu, 03 Apr 2003 22:33:20 -0000 From: "Art Volz" Subject: Re: item on eBay web site 4"_Rockwell_Metal_Shaper_Mill ing_Machine_Vise Joe--I noticed that it was missing the "S-305 Soft Jaws", but, as you state, they're not a problem. The AMMCO vise, however, did not have a "normal" swivel base; the graduated circular "S-302 Vise Base", screw-fixed to the vise body, instead swiveled directly on the table top via the round "S-309 Bolt" that went thru the center of the vise base, and thru a hole in the center of the table, and was locked in place with both "S-3010 Washer" and "SP-1006 Hex Nut". For non-swiveling applications, it could additionally be pre-indexed with "SP-2615 Key". The South Bend-7 utilized a similar type shaper vise swivel arrangement. The Atlas-7, however, used a "true" shaper vise complete with a swivel base that was bolted to the table and on which the vise swiveled. Art (Houston) ------- Date: Thu, 03 Apr 2003 23:23:30 -0000 From: "dreilanderecht" Subject: Re: item on eBay web site 4"_Rockwell_Metal_Shaper_Mill ing_Machine_Vise I could be tempted, except for the cost of shipping from Florida to New Zealand. So instead I have grabbed the pictures. Now if anyone who happens to have one would like to measure it up and make some dimension sketches, then I could make my own "facsimile" copy. Incidently last year I did make a new swivel base for a larger one, about 6.5 inches diameter, complete with the T slots for the swivel, and it really wasn't such a big job, although I did it on the Myford, 7 inch swing. Main problem as always with large items in lathe or shaper is figuring out how to hold it without the holding method getting in the way of the cut. The circular T slot was not all that hard and was very satisfying. My wife and I were counting up the other day, and I have at least ten vices. I should know better at my age. :) regards John ------- Date: Mon, 07 Apr 2003 20:23:08 +0000 From: mariol.vitalex~xxatt.net Subject: Re: Lewis Shaper Regis, Congratulations! It sounds like you got a great deal on a great little shaper. There are, or were...haven't looked lately, some pics of Lewis shapers and a drip pan mounted on a Lewis shaper (mine) in the photos section. The Lewis Machine Tool Co. was located in Los Angeles. Not sure exactly when they started, but I have a 1943 catolog. THey made "kits" for machine tools. You could buy a set of raw castings and blueprints, or you could buy the set of castings with all the major machinework complete and you did finish work and assembly. Their main customer base seemed to be vocation trade schools who would use them as a class project and end up with a good machine tool for their shop. Obviously it depends on the craftsmanship of the machinist/ assembler, but if done right they made some very good basic machine tools. It sounds like you got a nice one, and I'm jealous as hell about the vice!?!? There are a few other Lewis owners on this list and suspect they will respond as well. If you'd like to send me your address off line (mariol.vitalex~xxatt.net) I'd be willing to send you a xeroxed copy of the catolog. I am away from home on business right now, so it may take a while for me to get to it, but if you can wait, I'll send it. Mario ------- Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2003 07:58:32 -0500 From: "Scott S. Logan" Subject: New Group Greetings groupies. To provide additional storage space for files and photos, I have started an auxiliary group for our use, at: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Metal_Shapers_Pix/ There will be no message posting to this group, it is only to store pictures and files related to Metalworking Shapers. Since there is no messaging, please remember to post a message here, to announce your uploads. Also, Art Volz has graciously volunteered to do some housekeeping, and will be moving or deleting some of the files here, as I announced yesterday. For those of you planning to post photos or files, here are some guidelines. General information type items, such as scans of diagrams, manuals etc., should be posted here, to http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Metal_Shapers/ Personal projects, photos of your machines, work accomplished on them, etc., should be posted to the auxiliary group at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Metal_Shapers_Pix/ This would be a good time for me to publicly thank Art and Doug Chartier for moderating this group, their assistance has been invaluable to me. I owe you each a beer/soda/coffee. Either of you ever coming to NAMES, Cabin Fever, or Chicago? Enjoy! Scott S. Logan, Vice President Tel +1 (888) 99-LATHE Logan Actuator Co. Fax +1 (877) FAX-LOGAN 4956 N Elston Ave Email sslx~xxlathe.com Chicago IL 60630-1782 USA Web http://www.lathe.com ------- Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 22:02:27 -0000 From: "Art Volz" Subject: Re: Question for Art V. and other Lewis shaper owners > Can you please tell me what diameter pulley you use on your shaper > and motor for you Lewis shaper? What size motor are you using? What > rpm motor? Thank you for your help! Regis Regis--I have a 1/4 HP 1725RPM motor on my Lewis, which is more than adequate for this old machine with only manual--me with an oil can-- providing in-operation lube. I will try to measure the pulley dimensions and determine the ratios, sometime this week, and post them here. I run my Lewis at relatively low speed which a HSS tool bit allows. It is NOT a production machine, nor was it ever intended to be one. A 1/4 HP to 1/3 HP 1725 RPM motor is what I recommend for use on your Lewis; 1/2 HP is pushing the strength envelope for this machine. This machine was NEVER intended to be a production machine, but one for hobbyists and a kit for vocational schools to have built by their students and then retained as an educational machine tool. If you really want to make blue sizzling chips, step up to an industrial Shape-Rite-8, or a slightly lighter Logan-8, although, a larger industrial machine such as the Sheldon would be better yet. Art (Houston) ------- Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 17:34:29 -0500 From: "Clint D" Subject: Re: Re: Question for Art V. and other Lewis shaper owners Art: Thanks for the info on the Motor HP, I was about to put a 1 HP on mine, so I will back off and use something like a 1/2 or 1/3 HP. Now I can use my 1 HP for better uses needed. Here is the size of the pulleys on mine. The first jack shaft from the motor, the pulley that the motor runs on it is 6". The other end has 4 pulley setup, going from outside to inward, 6, 5, 4, and 3". Then the pulley setup going into the shaper bull gear has outside going inward, 2 5/8" 4, 5, and 6". I do not know why the smaller pulley measures only 2 5/8" the pulley looks just like the jackshaft setup, but is different on the small pulley's. I do not have a motor set up on mine yet so I can not comment of the motor pulley size? I will more than likely use a 1 3/4" or similar depending on what I hear from the members here Clint ------- Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 01:46:09 -0000 From: "dreilanderecht" Subject: Re: Question for Art V. and other Lewis shaper owners One thing to bear in mind is that unless you are trying very hard, you won't use the extra power from a larger motor. Mostly I think we tend to choose a cut size that seems reasonable rather than experimenting to find what the machine would do, especially since these machines are getting on a bit and contain parts we would have to fix ourselves if we broke them. So the higher power motor is not usually actually contributing anything in the way of extra rate of metal removal. Meanwhile, the large motor does have extra torque available and also extra flywheel mass. If we ever have any sort of crash, it increases the potential for disaster. So it is probably wise to err on the small side with motors. I've had the Ammco stall when things went wrong....I wonder what it would do with twice the power? regards John ------- Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 02:31:06 -0000 From: "extratec2001" Subject: Re: Question for Art V. and other Lewis shaper owners Have anyone tried a 3-phase motor on your shaper with a VFD? That is what I have right now and love it! No pulley changes, electric braking, and I can control many of the motor parameters including the ramp up/down speed of the motor (for a soft start up ) and max/min motor rpms among other things. My VFD has 99 different parameters I can change. By the way, I'm also using a 1/2 motor. Regis ------- Date: Thu, 01 May 2003 05:43:18 -0000 From: "joe mama" Subject: Re: Shape-Rite "Pat Bearss"> wrote: > > I am new to this group. I just picked up a Shape-Rite 8" Model B. > >It is complete except for a toolpost and a table jack (support). If > > anyone has parts I would certainly be interested. Pat Bearss "knerf67" wrote: > I don't have any parts or know of any sources for the Shape-Rite > machines. Not near as high production numbers as the Aammco/Delta or > Atlas/Craftsman. But I do have the same machine and would be willing > to measure the parts you're after and take some photos to illustrate > them. I also have a copy of the manual that I've been meaning to post. > Can't seem to figure out a cheap way to convert it to a PDF file but > I have it as a JPEG. Dick hi dick, i use a utility called print2pdf available for d/l for $19.95 or trial version free. if the moderator says ok, i will post the url or you could probly find it thru google. regards, joe in mo. FROM THE MODERATOR: I did an Internet search and found the listing quite easily. Thanks. ------- Date: Thu, 1 May 2003 07:24:46 -0500 From: Mike M Fendley Subject: Re: Re: Shape-Rite - generating free PDF files Dick: Go to the following web site http://www.pdffactory.com/ and download their FREE pdf file generator. It works great. Only draw back is it leaves their moniker at the bottom of each page. Small price to pay for free stuff that works. After you scan something, immediately print it. However, don't hit a print icon, just hit file/print. When the dialog box comes up for you to choose a printer, hit the arrow on the side and get the drop down menu. There you will see pdf factory (that you've downloaded and installed). Print to that and it will put your scanned file in a PDF file that you can then attach and email. One of the guys here on this board put me on to this and it works great. Mike in LeClaire ------- Date: Tue, 27 May 2003 04:29:17 -0000 From: "larry_galvin" Subject: Re: 10 inch shaper To find the pictures you have to sign up for the metal_shapers_pix group. That group is where the overflow pictures are posted, not in the metal_shapers group. lg ------- Date: Tue, 27 May 2003 17:24:55 -0000 From: "Art Volz" Subject: Re: 10 inch Lodge and Davis shaper: Speeds and Feeds -- In Metal_Shapersx~xxyahoogroups.com, "dreilanderecht" wrote: > The name plate speeds on my 10" Alba 1A are 45, 55, 75, and 100 spm. > They seem reasonable although I don't always use the fastest anyway. > regards John John-- The strokes per minute (SPM) of your Alba are what I consider to be about Goldilocks "just right" for this type of shaper. I did a quick calc using the speeds and feeds from Table 1 on page 12 of "/metal/AShaperTutorial.pdf" at "Files" here. The recommended max speeds for HSS cutting bits (fpm or feet per minute) listed are: Machine Steel x~xx 80fpm; Tool Steel x~xx 50fpm; Cast Iron x~xx 60fpm; Brass x~xx 160fpm. Although the max surface cutting speed for brass won't be reached, properly honed HSS at the lower speeds will cut the brass just as well, just slower. I also use about 1/2 the speed possible on my Lewis-10 upon which I have a 1/4 HP motor which is more than adequate for non-production hobbyist operation. I could possibly mount a 1/3 HP motor on it but would be hesistant to use a 1/2HP or larger motor: too much possible power for an old machine and an old operator, neither of which I wish to damage. My Logan 10 x 24 lathe has its spindle driven with a flat belt (McMaster) that is ideal: I can adjust it to make it slip when desired HP at the spindle is exceeded. That ability has saved my bacon several times. I, myself, would not remove the final stepped pulley driving the inner bull wheel pinion on the Lodge and Davis to avoid any possibility of damage. Instead I would design an external jackshaft with a similar stepped pulley of laminated and turned hardwood for a flat belt or a stepped pulley made of varying sizes of appropriate pitch-diameter V-pullies spaced on the jackshaft to align with the crowns of the flat pulley on the shaper. On any old machine it is mandatory to verify that it will receive adequate lubrication, to preclude damage, when under power. Failure to ascertain the sufficiency of lubrication could cause permanent machine damage. Art ------- Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 23:12:08 -0000 From: "al_messer" Subject: Re: Intro, South Bend 7 Steve: Don't let the lack of an oil pump disturb you as I ran an Atlas 7 with oil cups only for about 16 years successfully. Just set up a regular routine of filling each and every oil cup before turning "On" the switch. One disadvantage of the SB-7 WITH the oil pump is that you have a tendency to depend on it to the point of not watching how much oiling is going on. I don't know if there is some trash I failed to get out of the sump of my SB-7, but it sometimes is "notional" as to consistantly pumping oil to the Left ram--I have to really watch it. Good luck and happy chip making! Al Messer ------- Date: Sat, 30 Aug 2003 07:41:26 -0000 From: "stevenson_engineers" Subject: New Member. Hi all: Some of you may know me from other groups but I joined here as I wanted to post a shaper related article which I will do in a later post. My name is John Stevenson and I live in the UK near Nottingham. I run a small one man jobbing shop and also do some smallish special purpose machines. I have had shapers in the past, Alba 1A, Elliott 12" and Butler 16" but currently other than owning a Butler 6" vertical slotter I don't have room for one anymore. I have the manuals on the Butler and Elliot but as shapers are so generic any manual will do and I see there are a few in the files section. If these are needed shout up and I'll scan them. One interesting pic I do have, is one from a Russian set of books on machine tool design. As they weren't in competition with other manufacturers they all had to follow a laid down standard, 12 " shaper were a certain size and travel etc. Also because they didn't have to make their product look good price wise due to lack of competition they sent these things out with all attachments included. One attachment was a screw threading setup. I will put the pic in the files section under "/metal/screw_threading.jpg". What this is, is a two piece set of dies that have the thread ground in as straight lines along the length. One die is fixed to the table and one is fastened to the ram. It works by the ram retracting and a blank bolt or screw falling into the space at the rear, head up. The ram then moves forward and rolls the screw along the dies putting the thread on. At the end of the stroke it falls out into a tray and the cycle repeats. John S. ------- Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2003 20:46:31 -0000 From: "stevenson_engineers" Subject: Re: Elliott Invicta 2MR > I just bought an old Elliott Invicta 2MR Shaper. It need some > cleaning and repair. I am loking for a manual for this shaper. The Elliott Invicta manual is on my website for download. http://homepage.ntlworld.com/stevenson.engineers/lsteve/files/invicta.pdf John S. ------- Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2003 12:12:38 -0000 From: "Scott Logan" Subject: Storage Capacity OK, folks, some of you either can't read, or don't give a damn. Last night, I asked you all NOT to upload any more pics of files, because we were reaching our limit. I said if you give me a couple of days, I will have a solution. Well, some of you did not listen, and we were over the limit again this morning. I have canceled the ability for members to upload files and photos to this group. We have an ancillary group available for files and photos, and for now, there is room there. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Metal_Shapers_Pix/ Please be considerate of this service. Reduce the size of your photos to the extent reasonable. A 1600 x 1200 24b photo looks real nice, and can be printed out at near film resolution, but is NOT necessary for the purposes of this group. Generally, anything over 800 x 600 is overkill, and extremely wasteful of our resources. As of now, any photos posted with higher resolution may be deleted by me without notice. If you feel your photo really needs the higher resolution (and yes, there are such occasions), contact me directly. The same goes for the files section. For formatted documents, use PDF file format. It is platform independent, and compresses the information. If you are uploading a simple text document, upload it as a .txt file. Thank you. Scott Logan ------- Date: Fri, 03 Oct 2003 19:06:24 -0000 From: "Art Volz" Subject: Hawaii Tom: Lewis Pulleys & Speeds Tom B.--I promised you this stuff earlier this spring...B4 the bugs attacked. Didn't forget...just took a long time to catch up this far. The PIC at "Art's Doors" in "Photos" of the right side of my Lewis shaper shows the 1/4 HP 1725 RPM motor pivoted/gravity-suspended and attached by V-belt to the large pulley on the similarily pivoted and gravity suspended jackshaft. On the other end of this jackshaft is a 4-step pulley held suspended by the V-belt connecting it to another 4- step pulley that is directly attached to the pinion outboard shaft. The jackshaft runs directly in a pipe tube with only two hardware store bronze bearing bushings pressed into the ends and lubed by two oil holes at the outboard ends of the tube. The jackshaft is rotating at only 330 RPM and this arrangement has proved to be adequate at least for the first 50 years of its existence. You could get fancier, I guess, at a higher cost, more difficulty, but with no direct eyeball demonstrate-able improvement in performance. The KISS Directive rules...as it always does.! My pulleys are off-the-shelf, and currently available, Chicago Die Casting brand and can be seen on page 797 of Wholesale Tool's CY2003 catalog. Alternatively, these items can be found at Wholesale Tool's web site, http://wttool.com , but w/o pictures or Pitch Diameters, however, current pricing can be seen and ordering can be done thru their site. Here is the pulley data: --Motor Pulley: Chicago #250A, OD 2.5, PD 2.25. --Jackshaft Pulley Large: Chicago #1200 A, OD 12, PD 11.75. --Jackshaft Pulley Small, 4-Step: Chicago #147, OD 2/3/4/5, PD 1.75/2.75/3.75/4.75. --Pinion Shaft Pulley, 4-Step: Chicago #147, OD's and PD's as above. --Pinion: 14 Teeth. --Bull Gear: 78 Teeth. Bull Gear Speeds in Revolutions Per Minute. --Low: 22 RPM --Medium Low: 43 RPM --Medium High: 81 RPM --High: 161 RPM (I normally operate my Lewis at the two lowest speeds...unless I'm churnin' butter.) Calculation Summary: --Motor + Large Jackshaft Pulley + Pinion + Bull Gear: RPM = 59.3. --The two 4-Step Pulley Combo (Jackshaft & Pinion Shaft) Multipliers: ----Low: 0.37 ----Medium Low: 0.73 ----Medium High: 1.36 ----High: 2.71 Example: Determine the Low RPM for the Bull Gear: --59.3 x 0.37 = 22 RPM BTW, how's the rarified air atop Buzzards' Peak? Art (Houston) ------- Date: Thu, 09 Oct 2003 22:16:41 -0000 From: "al_messer" Subject: Re: More SB 7" questions. In Metal_Shapersx~xxyahoogroups.com, "John D. Guenther" wrote: > Can anyone tell me the proper belt lengths for a SB 7" shaper? > I can't figure it out from the manual. Looks like both of mine are 1/2" x 28". Al Messer ------- Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2003 19:14:09 -0000 From: "dreilanderecht" Subject: Re: Alba 1A shaper Hi Mike: When you move the clutch lever, it should stay at either end of the arc, eg you can leave it engaged or disengaged without your hand on the lever. So if it does not do this I would suspect some sort of problem. On the clutch lever housing there is a screw about 5/8 or so in diameter with a thin nut to lock it. This is the detent adjustment. You may be able to get the detent to work better by adjustng this. If more is needed, then you will need to take the clutch spring off on the other side. I haven't done that, but I think there may be some preload and it is a grunty spring so take care. Once the preload is off you should be able to remove the detent from the clutch housing and check the condition of the parts. Having said all this, I hardly use the clutch since I usually just turn off the motor! regards John New Zealand ------- Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2003 23:11:27 -0000 From: "Peter Verbree" Subject: Re: Alba 1a Mike/John: It's been a while since I had mine apart, but as I recall the bolt that holds in the clutch spring is long enough to allow easy removal, but under it is a screw through the shaft that provides a bearing surface for the clutch shaft. Don't mess with this unless you have to (don't ask me why!!) The clutch lever adjustment is not just a detent. The large "screw" has a pin in the end of it, that rides in a slot in the clutch shaft. This slot causes the clutch shaft to move in and out as the handle is rotated. It doesn't move far, say 1/4-3/8" but that is what releases the clutch. If you remove the big nut on the adjuster, and backout the screw, you will also be able to slide out the clutch shaft.(from the handle side) By doing this you will be able to inspect the condition of the slot and pin, without taking the spring off. I would also advise against taking off the detent/ speed adjuster/clutch housing unless you have to. The hi/lo shaft has a spring and ball detent, and I hate loosing small parts(don't ask!!) Feel free to ask any other questions. I'll try to get a manual out to you next week. Cheers Pete ------- Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 06:04:41 -0000 From: "dreilanderecht" Subject: Re: Alba Help --- In Metal_Shapersx~xxyahoogroups.com, "mmambro" wrote: > I've been getting more and more familiar with my Alba. I've played > with it and the cutting tools enough get close to the nice finish > shapers are known for, but I'm still learning how to adjust it > properly and hope to take it apart to clean (and paint?). > Pete was kind enough to send me a copy of the manual, but I'm still > having trouble. I am unable to swivel the tool head although the > locking screws have been removed, and the squared end rod that sits > just behind the head is loose and free to move. I can nudge the head > over half a degree at a time with a dead blow hammer. I cannot figure > out how to loosen the head or get remove it from the ram. Am I > correct in thinking that that squared end round stock which is > located on the ram, just behind the tool slide with squared end to > the right as you look at the machine is a locking cam or screw? Even > with it loose and free to move from left to right, the head is not > free to swivel. I can't figure out how to get the head or that bar > off/out of the ram. HELP?!? Thanks, Mike > P.S. With a Bridgeport and assorted lathes to play with, why do I > think a shaper is so wonderful? Hi Mike: I loosen the head by unlocking a small square headed screw that is on the top, then turning the larger square shaft with the same handle that fits the feeds and vice. This only has turn a small part of a turn. The head assembly then turns Ok. SO if this does not work for you, it may need a bit of penetrating oil, gentl tapping and patience. I'm not sure how to take it off, and I notice that the manual is remarkably reticient on the subject. Maybe Pete will know since he has had to do more work on his Alba 1A. I do know that this is quite different to my other Alba, the 4s. (Which I do have apart at the moment....) Shapers are just kind of neat.... regards John ------- Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 16:27:42 -0000 From: "Art Volz" Subject: Re: Alba Help John and Mike-- > you, it may need a bit of penetrating oil, gentl tapping and patience. Check also to insure that some idiot hasn't put TWO set screws into the screw hole. Often two setsscrews are used in situations where it is possible for only one set screw to work loose: the second set screw locks the first set screw tite. Shouldn't be hard to do...and before hammering...by measuring the current screw hole depth and comparing it to what the depth should be sans screw. Art--Houston ------- Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 17:36:23 -0000 From: "mmambro" Subject: Re: Alba Help Thanks. There are no extra set screws. I have removed the two screws which secure the cam shaft in place and lock it. I can easily see the shaft through the threaded holes. With the screws removed, the cam shaft can be easily be moved about 3/8 inch from side to side, but I can't remove it. I'm getting the feeling that I'm going to have to take the ram off the machine to see what's holding the slide assembly in place. There must be something jammed in there or perhaps a large burr from forcing the cam. I'm looking forward to hear what Pete thinks. Mike ------- Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 18:04:41 -0000 From: "dreilanderecht" Subject: Re: Alba Help OK, I think I have figured it out, but realised while I was washing my hands, too late to try it. There is a locking screw and a retaining screw on mine on hte top right of the ram just above the squared shaft. The locking screw is to stop the shaft turning while in use, it is just a square head screw. The next one, at the outside, is a retaining screw, it has the tread turned off the far end so it goes into a groove on the shaft. So you take that one right out. But the shaft still doesn't come out, wjich had me a bit stymied for a while. But what I think you are supposed to do is tunr the tool head right around, maybe upside down. This will, if I am right, bring to the top a section with enough clearance to allow the squared shaft to be removed. Because you can't remove it with the tool head in the normal position! So where this leaves you if the ram head is stuck.....I think you are going to have to use the soaking in penetrating oil technique, maybe with gentle warming and lots of tapping. regards John ------- Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 20:11:15 -0000 From: "mmambro" Subject: Re: Alba Help Thanks, John. I too have the retaining screw and locking screw (but lacked the appropriate vocabulary in my original descriptions). Both of my screws have been replaced with hardened cap head screws. We are in day 2 of penetrating oil, which I started using out of desperation rather than any flash of insight. It hasn't made any difference so far, the head really feels like it's being held in place rather than being "stuck". Inverting the head is something that I probably would not have thought to do for at least another century...thanks. I think I can "tap" the head in steps, punctuated by penetrating oil soaking, to postion it at 90 and 180 degrees to vertical. This sounds like a Saturday/Sunday job rather than a quick after-work special. Thanks again and best regards, Mike ------- Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 22:21:10 -0000 From: "dreilanderecht" Subject: Re: Alba Help I'll give it a try myself tonight, since mine moves freely I can do this and hopefully confirm the correct position. That will be tonight, eg about ten There is certainly something eccentric about the squared shaft, there is a centre on the end that is not centred. If that is not too Irish. I think there is a piece in the middle that is turned eccentric, so that when the shaft is turned it locks the head against the ram. It was through trying to picture how you could assemble such a thing that I concluded that the the slot in the tool head must be smaller than the ends of the shaft. This implies that there has to be some provision for getting it in and out. I beleive that there is an annual competition for the most obscure and difficult piece of design...BSA won one year with the placement of the magneto screw on the A10... Always good to try penetrating oil, after all it rarely does any harm. Gentle warming is good too. I've poured hot water onto things I did not want to use an open flame on. regards John ------- Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 06:45:32 -0000 From: "dreilanderecht" Subject: Removing Alba (and Elliot?) ram heads Hi All: OK, I have taken off the head from my ram, and it is as was supposed several messages back. So for posterity, here is the process: Remove the two screws from the top of the ram above the square locking shaft. The outside screw has a pin end that engages in a hole in the locking shaft to retain in endwise. The other screw locks the locking shaft. Now turn the whole ram head until the tool is pointed upwards. You should remove the tool bit first for safety, although the place where it got me is not actually bleeding... Now tap on the end of the locking shaft with a pin punch. It may be a bit tight but should drive out OK. Depends how hard people have been trying it in the wrong position, which will raise burrs...mine has evidence of this, and the scars are not fresh so I don't think it was my efforts last night. Once the locking shaft is out, the ram head should be able to pull forward and off. The locking shaft of mine was showing signs of wear where the load has been falling , so I took the opportunity to clean it up a bit. It does not seem to be hardened. To reassemble, put the ram head on, upside down then put the locking shaft in place. The outside screw can now go in, you will have to fiddle the end location of the shaft until this drops in. It should not be tightened against the shaft, which is why the original has a locknut. Put the locking screw in loosely, turn the head up to the right position, tighten the locking shaft in the same direction that would tighten a screw, then tighten the lock nut and Robert is your parental sibling. The locking shaft will actually lock when rotated either way, but seems logical for it to tighten the same way as a normal screw would. It would appear that some of the Elliot shapers work the same way, since I came across an enquiry in the archives that we never did answer at the time. So all you Elliot owners take note! But since my big Alba is different, it may be that big Elliots are also different. regards John ------- Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2003 12:10:16 -0000 From: "mmambro" Subject: Re: Removing Alba (and Elliot?) ram heads Hi John, Well, I was able to invert the head and get the locking cam out. Mine has burrs on it as well, some from the locking screw, and others on the cam locking surfaces. The head is still very, very tight, although I can now move it 'round using my weight, muscle and two hands....an improvement over the dead blow hammer. I cannot remove the head from the ram, nor does it appear to be the least bit interested in being removed. Now that the locking cam is out, I'll be applying pentrating oil in the newly exposed areas within the ram head casting. Is there any opening on the reverse side of the ram casting which would have allowed some one to peen over the stem that holds the head to the ram? If not, there must be either some good sized burrs holding the head onto the casting or grease that is as old as I am, holding it in place. Thanks again, Mike ------- Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2003 21:04:03 -0000 From: "dreilanderecht" Subject: Re: Removing Alba (and Elliot?) ram heads Mine just pulled forwards to come out. It is a close fit. The hole on the ram does go right through, so you would be able to tap from inside if you took the ram off. I don't think it should be able to be peened over, the round part on the ram head does not project right through on mine. I suspect there may be enough burring of the edges inside to make it tighter than it should be. Anyway, it does sound like progress is being made. regards John ------- Date: Sun, 02 Nov 2003 01:04:30 -0000 From: "mmambro" Subject: Re: Removing Alba (and Elliot?) ram heads I finally got the head off the ram!!!!! The cam has a large burr from some prior operator really jamming the thing. There was also a much more subtle burr (more of a poorly defined bulge) the the shaft which supports the head. The bulge was adjacent to the rear edge of the groove which receives the locking cam. This bulge was large enough to make the head just about unmovable when fully in place. Several careful strokes with a single cut mill bastard file did the trick. I was able to s-l-o-w-l-y get the head off without removing the ram. I figured that if possible, I only wanted to deal with one problem at a time. Thanks to everyone for the help! Onward to more shaper fun! Mike ------- Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 11:26:11 -0000 From: "Joe Guidry" Subject: Re: Cinncinatti shaper [WEIGHT QUESTION] John, the Cincinnati's, 16" Heavy duty, 4900 lbs 20" Standard, 4600 lbs. 20" Heavy duty, 5600 lbs. 24" Standard, 5700 lbs. 24" Heavy duty, 7600 lbs. 28" Heavy duty, 7700 lbs. 32" Heavy duty, 9000 lbs. 36" Heavy duty, 9200 lbs. this was the U.S. shipping weight without the vise and if it had the angle table the weight was even greater, My 24" Heavy was 8,700 pass- u-sef a good weekend, Joe Guidry ------- Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 02:05:33 -0000 From: "Art Volz" Subject: Re: Why do all the good shapers have to be... > --- In Metal_Shapersx~xxyahoogroups.com, "Joe Guidry" wrote: > > Jim, trust me, don't listen to Art, or those other fellows, simple, > > I will get a shaper, bring it to Art, then he can drive part way > > find someone else to drive 300 miles or so, we will pony express it > > to you by pickup truck, how does that sound, Joe Guidry --- In Metal_Shapersx~xxyahoogroups.com, "dreilanderecht" wrote: > Liable to arrive "sans Porte" if it passes Art's place.... :) > regards John John--If it comes near me it will be more than "sans porte"--it probably will be "sans shaper". Heck, around here the toilet seats ain't even safe: if it has hinges and swings it's a door here...and it shall (as the Greek spear chuckers pledged uponst that mountainous path) not pass! Art (Baiting shaper traps down along Green's Bayou...with a flashlite and a snipe bag at the ready.) ------- Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2004 19:44:01 -0000 From: "elperkins2003" Subject: Re: South Bend Vise # >>>> what is vise # DPV 103 ?? > The reason for my inquiry is that I just got a South Bend vise at an > auction that has a swivel base. The vise # is: DPV 103. It has a > base with 2 ears for bolting it down (bolt spacing is 7 1/2"). It's > 3 11/16" high, jaw width is 3 15/`6". I wonder what this vise is for. South bend used the same vise for both the shaper and the drill press. I have seen them both and own the shaper vise myself. The only difference between the two vises is the mount system. The SHV (I suspect stands for Shaper Vise) has a keyed swivel base for the shaper table. The DPV (I suspect stands for Drill Press Vise) has a swivel base with two partially open holes for bolting to table on the little South Bend bench drill press. If you have the reprint publication from Lindsay on How to Run a Shaper and Drill Press, I think you can see them both in the photographs. Perk in Cincinnati ------- Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 16:38:24 -0000 From: "s_a_black" Subject: Newbie question I have been enjoying reading this group immensely. I stumbled across a couple of shapers for sale on a recent trip but I did not know enough to feel comfortable putting out the cash. I have rebuilt, well really just cleaned up a Logan 821 and a burke mill so I have some clue about old machinery, especially how it wears and how that makes your life more difficult. On a lathe the bed wear is near the chuck which makes it more difficult to turn parallel and sometimes parting off can be an adventure on a worn machine. But what about a shaper? What wears? What is the consequence of that wear? What should I look for? I would expect, and I think I have read here, that the crank pins and where the rod meets the ram is an obvious point which can result in noisy operation. What about the rams? Do their ways wear over a shorter stroke than their full travel causing them to not be parallel? Does this affect accuracy or chatter? Can you adjust it out? I am looking at something like an Atlas 7". Any advise on the consequences of wear and whether I should worry about them would be appreciated. BTW, this is a great list and I have learned a lot on it. The txt files are terrific. ------- Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 01:33:26 -0000 From: "dreilanderecht" Subject: Re: Newbie question I haven't experienced wear in all of the possible places, so don't have direct knowledge of the effects of all possible conditions, but here is my opinion FWIW. The wear points you mention, the crankpin, dieblock and the two ends of the slotted arm are certainly a place where wear takes place. We could also add the bullshaft bearing to these. They will cause a knocking noise, but don't affect the accuracy of the machine. Plenty of thick oil will help keep things quiet while you machine the new part. The gears will wear, but are not likely to be a problem unless teeth break, in which case you will be learning to make gears. (See past threads on this topic...) The leadscrews will wear, and quite probably will wear more in the areas most used, eg the middle with the table one. In principle this can affect accuracy, eg if you are relying on the calibrations, but since most of mine are not calibrated it makes little difference. Also a new leadscrew is not such a hard thing to make, given a big enough lathe and assuming that has a good leadscrew. The slideways can wear, but the bearing areas are such that they are likely to outlast the rest of the machine. Since the ram is longer than the slideways, it could get worn more in the middle than at the ends. (maybe only one end...) With general use the ram position tends to differ from job to job, so should not usually be much of a problem, and if it does need correcting, it is the ram which needs the work...probably easier than remachining the column would be. The vertical slides at the front are not usually moved frequently or fast, they should outlast the rest. The downfeed on the end of the ram is essentially the same as a lathe topslide, and is unlikely to be badly worn. The clapper box may be worn, especially the pin, but is pretty trivial to correct. Although you don't want sideplay here at all, and to correct that it may be necessary to either make a new clapper, or build up the side and remachine. The cross slide can wear, and again may wear more in the middle than at the ends. Also the gib arrangements on the table may not be able to take up wear on the slides or the table itself. I haven't had to do any work in this area myself, so will defer to anyone who has, but worst case you might have to take out the wear on the cross slides, either by hand scraping or with a surface grinding setup, then adjust the table slides to suit. Arangements differ, but for instance a common type has a square bar for the top of the cross slide, with a dovetail slide for the bottom. If the square bar has worn on the back surface, which takes the cutting load and stops the table sagging forwards, then it will need correcting. having made that surface flat, the table now has too much clearance, so this must be removed, either by taking a cut off the back of the table where a strip bolts on. or by making a new strip with a step in it. (Some machines do have this arrangement but with an actual gib strip at the back of the top slide to take up the wear.) Tests for these things are not too hard to carry out on a machine you have access to, eg at a dealers. A bit harder if it is ebay! Try for instance lifting at the front of the table. (This will not work so well on machines where the table is more than you can lift!) If it lifts, either there is wear or the gibs are not adjusted correctly. Same sort of test applies to the ram...it should not move sideways or up and down. Even if the machine can't be powered, it can often be turned over by hand, which will help find those mechanical knocks. In terms of accepting or rejecting a machine, I would far rather change the various bushes and die blocks in the mechanical path than work on the slideways. This is because you are not risking the basic accuracy of the machine, and also the work is relatively small and able to be carried out with readily available machines. But if necessary quite a lot can be done to slideways with a hand scraper, if you have the time and can devise means to check the results, eg scrape it true to match an existing surface plate or the like. You can console yourself that it is unlikely to need repeating within fifty years or so. Also mostly the adjustments will take up the wear, that is after all why they are provided. There are also tricks for coping with wear to some degree, but that would be another whole essay. :) In fact, what is more likely to be a problem is actually breakages rather than wear. These need not be the end of the world. You may even find the odd spare by the means described by Art, although my own first assumption would be that anything that is needed I am going to have to make. regards John ------- Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 20:05:21 -0000 From: volzmechatronicx~xxyahoo.com Subject: What To Look For In A Used Shaper--wuz Re: Newbie question John--Put a link to your message "What To Look For In A Used Shaper" in "Files" at our "Pix" site. Extremely well done: an Art's "Kudu" for a Kiwi! :-) If I had an extra AMMCO door I would have it engraved and presented formally to you...perhaps accompanied by a fife and a dueling banjo band with Miss Jack's son tap dancing atop a barrel head of mountain brewed moon. I don't know if I've got that guy's AMMCO door or not-- will have to wait until he reports his serial number. AMMCO doors are simple and should be easy to replicate--that "AMMCO" decal is the hard part. Art (Houston: the land of mythical magic and magical myths. One thing about my treasure trove of pounds of iron shaper doors is that my compass in my van leads me directly home--the needle ONLY points to my "Hall of Departed Warriors".) ------- Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 18:03:55 -0000 From: "dreilanderecht" Subject: Re: vices "s_a_black" wrote: >question, are Shaper vises that much different than milling vises? >If one had a shaper with no vise would a milling vise do the trick >or is there something specific about the shaper loads that makes the >vise design different? Shaper vices tend to be built a little lower in height and more solidly than a mill vice of the same jaw width. Despite that, a good milling vice will be fine. Or if you want something more authentic, the drawings for the Ammco vice are in the files somewhere, and it is not too impossible to make, even without castings if necessary. regards John ------- Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 20:52:16 -0000 From: volzmechatronicx~xxyahoo.com Subject: Re: vices I've looked at a lot of different vises and own quite a few as well-- both for shapers and mills--and a certain style is in evidence for shaper vises. This style is more readily discernible if you page thru your copy of Ken Cope's excellent book on shapers, slotters, and planers. (Atragal Press x~xx $25.) I've found that one characteristic is that shaper vises tend to be much lighter in weight vis-a-vis a similar jaw width vise for a mill. For instance, my OEM 7-inch Lewis shaper vise weighs 27lbs; 6- inch Kurt style clone lock down vises are in the 100 lb range. ("Normal" shaper vises moveable jaws are "locked down" by tightening the gib screws, although there is a type of planer chuck that is locked down directly to the frame via a thru-screw.) Jaws open fairly wide for shaper vises and their jaw depths are generally less. Another often seen characteristic is the vise screw: for "typical" shaper vises this is a frame length captive screw. That all said, any vise that will do the job will work. I had a "pancake" unknown vise, but lite, sitting on my Lewis-10 for 4 years until friends helped me find and send me a real OEM one: I didn't want to put a hundred pound lock-down vise on my table...at least not until I had fabricated a traveling table rest...there's a lot of difference in just traversing that heavoer weight each stroke of the ram. At the end of the day, your ratchet is really stressed and feeling it. There's an interesting comparison of vises that Chris Wood has posted at his site http://www.littlemachineshop.com about vises, although it does not discuss shaper vises per se. He also offers an interesting low cost "Quick" vise for about $40 + S&H machined from steel and with 4-inch wide jaws which is also fairly lite. The "Quick" vise uses a novel jaw adjust and lock down mechanism. While it probably doesn't have the speed of a regular screw type vise, it is more than adequate for hobbiest one-off non production use. It doesn't have a swivel base, but one should be able to adapt it readily for use on any of the sevens: AMMCO, SB, and Atlas. As John stated, there is an excellent set of dimensioned drawings at "files" here for machining your own spitting image AMMCO vise from steel: if you've got the skill I recommend that you roll your own. With minor adaptation, this is an excellent vise to arm a SB or Atlas with as well. To view the multi-paged file you first must go to the Solid Works site and download and install their "eDrawing" reader as the drawings are eDrawings. Each of the dimensioned drawings can be printed out then for your use. That vise has a frame 7.89 inches long with 4 inch wide jaws with a depth of about 1 inch. Its overall height is a low profile 2.575 inches plus a tad for the extra height of the jaw plates. AMMCO (SB and Atlas too) vises found on eBay generally go for about $175 each--some for a bit less, and some for more: an Atlas went for about $258 recently. These are fair prices. A new "low profile" Palmgren 4-inch vise Model 425B with swivel base is about that at Travers Tool. Art (Houston) ------- Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2004 18:51:44 -0000 From: "dreilanderecht" Subject: Various items As Art says, carbide tooling on typical shapers is not going to give you increased metal removal, but my own experience is that it can be worthwhile because a carbide tip will keep its edge well and doesn't mind tough material or sandy castings. I am fortunate enough to own one of the Glendo machines, and my own carbide bits are actually old triangular inserts brazed onto a mild steel shank and sharpened. Interesting to note that the early Ammco (mine) came with three steps, while it seems that the later ones came with four. I don't think you would fit a very wide gear belt into the Ammco, the bull gear is only about 5/8 wide. It would be a good principle to use, if it can be fitted in. Bit of elasticity in the belt wouldn't hurt when you have a "problem". Incidently, despite our fear of breaking the phenolic ones, the information I have seen indicates that they are likely to stand shocks better than a cast iron gear would. (But maybe not as well as steel) On the felts, Art might note that the 60 million sheep are the ones that provide the wool to make this from. Incidently wool does have good oil absorbing properties, it is one of the things that can be used to help with oil spills. Then of course, the lanolin that the sheep originally provided with the wool can be used for tapping etc, or to make your hands smooth afterwards. Anyone wants a tanker full, it can probably be arranged from this country! regards John --------------- Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2004 22:02:03 -0000 From: volzmechatronicx~xxyahoo.com Subject: Re: Various items "dreilanderecht" wrote: > As Art says, carbide tooling on typical shapers is not going to give > you increased metal removal, but my own experience is that it can be > worthwhile because a carbide tip will keep its edge well and doesn't > mind tough material or sandy castings. I am fortunate enough to own > one of the Glendo machines, and my own carbide bits are actually old > triangular inserts brazed onto a mild steel shank and sharpened. John--Even chipped carbide inserts work at getting below the gritty "rind" of sandy castings--don't even need to sharpen them. John speaks of the Glendo grinding machine that uses diamond dust embedded grinding wheels. Wish I had the spare coins to buy one--the wheels themselves list at over 100 brite green clams each. See at URL: http://www.accu-finish.com/accu-finishserie.html Maybe we can get Joe W. to expound on the this-and-thats about the grinder he made for diamond wheels. Joe's experience is that ONLY the diamond wheels work well on carbide. There are some modern HSS T15 insert type cutters made by Warner that utilize standard insert holders originally designed for carbide inserts. These triangular inserts are about $7 each, but when reground (if not chipped) can be top face ground using much cheaper non-diamond grinding wheels. T15 also is much less brittle than any of the carbides and is highly chip resistant, although some of the special micro-carbides come close. Chris Wood stocks these T15 inserts--be sure to click onto his comparison chart as well: http://www.littlemachineshop.com/products/product_view.php? ProductID=1724 Micro grain carbide inserts are available from Micro 100. These very fine grain carbide tools are much more resistant to chipping than are standard C-grades of carbide: http://www.micro100.com/Inch/m100page2.html Of course, to resharpen these Micro 100 inserts, you will need the more expensive diamond type wheels. The type of inserts that Micro 100 offers can be seen at: http://www.micro100.com/Inch/NewProds.html > Interesting to note that the early Ammco (mine) came with three > steps, while it seems that the later ones came with four. Your pulleys are Vee-grooved, correct? > I don't > think you would fit a very wide gear belt into the Ammco, the bull > gear is only about 5/8 wide. It would be a good principle to use,if > it can be fitted in. Bit of elasticity in the belt wouldn't hurt > when you have a "problem". Maybe a good method to use for someone making a Gingery cast aluminum or a similar Marsh Collins fabbed of plate type shaper: it should be a lot quieter than a chain drive. Gates has a number of catalogs that have design formulas and charts in them for the various types of timing belts/pulleys that they offer. I have these "hiding" somewhere in my shop. These can be viewed at the Gates web site, but I didn't want to go thru all of the dumb "signing in" procedures in the wee hours of this morn. Most cars use these "rubber" type timing belts today--one broke in my wife's Reliant K-car at about 40,000 miles twisting up a bunch of the rods (great design the K-car was: that was His Majesty I'm-a-cuckoo's "savior")--never could get that hunk of iron running right again. Now, if I could afford it and justify it, the metal chain timed Cadillac North Star engined cars are THE way to go: gosh that's a pretty engine!! Wonder how much one of those chains would cost...and a set of their sprockets? Imagine the ad: "North Star Shaper, the Cadillac of the Tool Room!" Incidently, despite our fear of breaking > the phenolic ones, the information I have seen indicates that they > are likely to stand shocks better than a cast iron gear would. (But > maybe not as well as steel) Mississippi Mike still has that piece of phenolic laminate that I had drop-shipped to him last fall...waiting to make that first straight toothed bullgear and pinion replacement for some needy (AKA: "less fortunate") AMMCO/Delta shaper guy. > On the felts, Art might note that the 60 million sheep are the ones > that provide the wool to make this from. Incidently wool does have > good oil absorbing properties, it is one of the things that can be > used to help with oil spills. How many sheep would it have taken to absorb the Exxon Valdez's spill? Are live sheep better than ded ones, or do the ded ones float better? Do you just drive them off the sides of a container type ship in flocks of one thousand the way our "Native Americans" used to hunt buffalo... before Buffalo Bill and Annie Oakley...and the Winchester '73 :-) > Then of course, the lanolin that the > sheep originally provided with the wool can be used for tapping etc, > or to make your hands smooth afterwards. Anyone wants a tanker full, > it can probably be arranged from this country! Does it go rancid? Can you make mayonnaise from the stuff...for tapping? If we added stearic acid to it so it "clings" better to vertical or inclined surfaces, would it make a gooder "way slide" type lube...or for angryfied Texas chain saws? It would probably be just the "feast" to feed them myriads of hungry hydraulics as well...might stop the ever recurring leaks if we chopped up some wool hair and mixed it in. Need a name for this stuff: "Kanned Woolie Hydro-Juice", or is that infringing on the infamous standard WWI limey army fodder of "Canned Willy"??? "Spam" is already taken...maybe "Spa-lamb" or "Splam"??? John, all this stuff about buying felt at the back side of the "Piano Tuner's Hideaway" is just "pulling the wool over our eyes". You obviously have forgotten the large piece of felt that I sent you about a year ago for your bi-annual birthday (which falls only on leap years)--gotten from McMasters I did--that your wife is now saying she bought at the pet store for your pet Kiwi bird cage. The story of Kiwi's sitting on their perches and laying aerial eggs which plummet to falleth onto MY Charmin-soft wiper felt is quite a tale. I shall re-tell it often. :-) Art (Houston) ------- Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2004 17:37:16 -0600 From: "J. R. Williams" Subject: Re: Re: Various items Art & John: The grinder I use is made around a "C" face motor and the mounting flange will accept any standard plate mounted wheel. . The diamond wheel allows me to sharpen the carbide brazed tool bits as well as the inserts. The other wheels that work fine are the CBN wheels and they can be used o hard steel. A good wheel will cost only a couple packages of quality inserts. My unit is almost 20 years old and the wheel is barely worn. Belt drive. I have converted my small bench top drill press to a multi V groove automotive belt drive but the pulleys are flat faced. It works fine and shows no wear or slippage problems. The belts would work fine for a shaper, providing there is sufficient width . The lube oil used on the internals might create a problem with the flat belts but would be no problem with a toothed "timing" belt. Joe W ------- Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2004 00:06:32 -0000 From: "dreilanderecht" Subject: Re: Ammco pullies, Lubricious substances, Diamind wheels No Art, My Ammco has a flat belt drive, remember this is the oldest Ammco in captivity, at least as far as we can guess from the low serial number. So we have one more data point, the early ones have three steps, the later ones have four.... I did get a great package of data and disk from you once, but never got any felt, although you threatened to send me some once when I made some negative remarks about the idea. (Some say that they are a great way of trapping grit against the ways, so that they get lapped nicely.) I wouldn't worry, it would be a bit like coals to Newcastle. I am going to fit them to my "new" 14 inch Alba, since it is drilled for them although they seem to have got lost. There are in fact Sperm whales nearby, they swim past on their annual migrations and the odd one does accidently swim ashore. However, it would be more than my life was worth to try to get hold of any blubber to render down. On the other hand, we can do lanolin or tallow by the ton, or shipload if preferred. No snake oil though, you would have to go to Texas or Australia for that. :) I think for absorbing oil it is simpler to take the fleece off the sheep first, and you would be surprised to see how quickly that can be done. The problem with the toothed belts in cars comes when the valve timing and lift is such that they can interfere with the piston. Since the cam will naturally stop with some valves open, eg one closing and the other open so the two followers act as a detent, it follows that the piston will come up and bend some valves, possibly more than just the two, especially if the engine is going fast, when inertia may allow the cam to rotate a turn or two out of sync. But as a general rule, some engines will usually survive without much damage, while some rarely will. If the valves have been bent by the piston hitting them, then the guides should be changed too. Somewhere around here it is time to forget the engine. Best to remember to change the belt regularly! But they should be fine for a shaper, provided a reasonable size one can be accomodated. I have a little Emco Unimat lathe, which I fitted with a half inch width belt to replace the rubber O ring the factory uses. It does really well...it can be damaged by a stall, if the belt jumps a tooth, and after enough abuse will eventually snap, but I get a few years out of each one. I seem to recall that the Glendo people recommend the diamond wheels for either carbide or HSS, and would have to say that mine has done both ever since my father bought it, in the early eighties I think. Still on the original wheels. He bought two of the fine (1800?) since that was supposed to be the one that would wear out first, but they all still cut well. They have also been used for lapping the sides of cast iron piston rings. They don't seem prone to loading up. (No connection of course) regards John ------- Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2004 02:56:33 -0000 From: "dreilanderecht" Subject: Re: Diamonds are a shapers best friend I don't have the figures handy since I'm at work, but as you say the Glendo turns pretty slow. And not to give anyone any hints, but it is not even a gearbox, it is an O ring type of belt. Lets just say that the contents of the box are pretty simple, the work would actually be in making the sliding table on the outside which is quite nice but not beyond improvement. For those not familiar, there is a table that lies across the front of the wheel. It can be adjusted from right angles down to a steep slope, maybe as much as 45 degrees. It can slide back and forth so that you can move the tool across the wheel. There is a fence in the middle that can be adjusted to set up a side angle on the tool, eg thirty degrees for screwcutting. (Actually should be adjusted slightly since the tool is sloping back, but I have never thought of that before.) So you hold the tool against the little fence, put a little pressure on the back of the tool with a spare finger and move the table back and forth across the wheel. No worries about overheating, and it sharpens quite nicely. I tend to rough out the basic shape on the ordinary grinder first with HSS, on the grounds that a new wheel for that is cheaper and easier to get. But the diamond removes material quite well, with no tendency to burn the metal. So not to try to do the Glendo people out of any sales, but yes, it would not be too hard, and if you only do HSS, then a similar device based on a cup wheel would be quite workable too. The improvement I would like for the fence, is that you really need two, one for the left side and one for the right. Let's say you are doing a threading tool...you set up for thirty degrees left, use the coarse wheel, then set up for thirty degrees right, do the other face, then you put on the medium wheel, do the same face, then swap to the other angle... und so weiter... If we had a fence for each angle we could save time. Of course, if we had three spindles and three tables we could save even more time. Incidently the polish obtained after using the 1800 wheel is such that you can see reflections in the face of the tool. regards John ------- Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2004 08:29:23 -0000 From: "mendoje1" Subject: Re: Various items > So true. When designing a belted system one must use the > manufacturer's tables. Generally speaking, horsepower carrying > capacity of a belt increases with its surface speed. (snip) > Art (Houston) > > (snip) > > The limit is not actually a horsepower one, it is the tension that it is reasonable to put on the belt. With the sizes and low speeds of a shaper, the tension would be significant even for low power. (snip) but you don't want to be taking the machine apart too often to change belts. regards John < < My inquiry regarding the suitability of cogged timing belts and pulleys (to replace the bull gear and pinion) came about in my mind as another form of the bicyle chain or metal timing chain that Art once suggested. I would think, being cogged, belt tension can be minimal, as the "bull pulley" I envision has side "lips" to contain the belt. On my 7" shaper, I dont think I would go with V or multi-V accessory belts, as the tension required might be hard on the shaft bushings, plus I would have to come up with a tensioning device. I would think in this application, a fair amount of slack could be tolerated, unlike a real "timing" situation like a CNC stepper motor, and a great deal of slack or stretch would have to develop just to slip a cog. An engineer from Honda told me the main culprit of timing belts is excessive heat, and on my car's engine specifically they almost regard it (not officially of course) as a lifetime belt. The belts I've replaced (3 so far x~xx 70K increments) looked almost new. Anyway, just thinking outloud again, and to put it back in context, for small benchtop shapers like my 1/3 hp AMMCO. Jeff ------- Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2004 21:05:14 -0000 From: "dreilanderecht" Subject: Re: Belt tension clarification In this sort of application, a toothed belt needs no pretension...the pair I use on my Unimat lathe have no tensioning arrangement, and the sizes were simply arranged to give the minimum slack on the two possible steps. The belts are located by lips where neeeded. In fact, on a two step arrangement you only need one beside the smaller wheel, as the one beside it locates the belt. For a single speed drive on a shaper I would provide a flange either side of at least the bull wheel, one reason being that they would also help to keep any oil off the belt. The problem I refer to in fact is that when the belt is transmitting power, there must be tension in it to pull the driven one around. There is a limit to this tension, and so there is a limit to the torque that can be transmitted to a given driven wheel. Since my Unimat final drive belt can snap when the machine is stalled, I would say that I am close to the limits for the particular size of wheels and belt. The other thing that can happen is that a stall will tear the teeth off the belt where it wraps around the small wheel. In this case, to get the range of ratios I needed, the small wheel had to be the minimum number of teeth recommended, which is ten. More would be easier on the belt, and should be used if you can still get the ratios needed. It will be seen that with only ten, and driving a large pulley, there are only about four teeth actually engaged with the belt, and the full force comes on those. regards John ------- Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2004 22:14:23 -0000 From: volzmechatronicx~xxyahoo.com Subject: Re: Belt tension clarification I've posted 2 PIX at our PIX site in Photo Album "TAIG Lathe Dual Motors". They are PIX of a TAIG lathe that I threw together for concept analysis purposes several years ago. It has since been disassembled and the parts used elsewhere. It used a variable speed controlled treadmill motor for normal turning operations and a stepper motor drive for threading. This latter motor was to be sync'd to the axial feed drive stepper for threading operations via computer (Intel 386) control. This is similar in some respects to the concept that the Frog controller uses for threading on a TAIG or Sherline--except the Frog syncs using a one pulse per spindle revolution magnetic switch feedback encoder (like an electronic speedometer on a bicycle). You can see that the cross feed and spindle drive used timing belts which appeared, in limited testing, to work well. The two small axis feed stepping motors proved to be too small, however, for positive feeds. That is as far as this project went: I was really most interested in the dual motor drive idea--when one motor was being used, the other one free wheeled, without apparent difficulties. None of the belts were tensioned-- they were just adjusted until no visible droop was noted. Art (Houston) ------- Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2004 17:19:14 EST From: jmartin957x~xxaol.com Subject: Re: Rhodes 7" questions 3/25/04, mroeschx~xxbellsouth.net writes: > Here's a question for the group, I am in the process of re-building my > 7" Rhodes, it was retrofitted with a motor mounted underneath the > ORIGINAL drive for overhead shop power using a belt. I am going to > set it up AS ORIGINAL with a overhead motor for the drive attaching to > it using a belt. What I am wondering is how powerful a motor do I > need and what diameter pulley (or step pulley arrangement using a > cone pulley) I need for the drive motor. has anyone even seen one of > these set up and running? Thanks! Mike Roesch You may need more than a single reduction, I think. Mine has a 1 HP 1750 RPM motor mounted on a mount attached to the back of the column. 3.25" V-belt pulley on the motor to a 10.25" pulley on a jackshaft. 6" pulley on that jackshaft to a 10.25" pulley on a second jackshaft. The second jackshaft drives the shaper through a 3-step flat belt pulley that is identical to the one on the shaper. Reversed, of course. Middle speed, as I recall, is about 60 strokes per minute - which is just about perfect. Low speed about half that, and high speed about twice. The shaper is not bolted to the concrete floor, and walks on high speed. Low speed is too slow unless I am trying to follow a contour. Hope this helps. John Martin ------- Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2004 22:37:13 -0000 From: volzmechatronicx~xxyahoo.com Subject: Re: Rhodes 7" questions Mike--Keep the speeds slow. Line shafts didn't turn fast--if they had they would have soon become dynamically unglued and flying every which way. To see an electric motor powered overhead line shaft and reverser see: http://www.americanartifacts.com/smma/advert/ay227.htm Art (Houston) ------- Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2004 03:21:24 -0000 From: "markcostello43130" Subject: Another Rhodes shaper question. I have just added an underneath motor drive to my origional lineshaft driven shaper. My speeds came out as 40 and 60 in high, too slow will speed up. Tje problem I am having is this- this is a like new condition no miles kind of machine, from OSU university where it apparently was not hooked up to anything, in anyones memory. Original vise. Sweeping everything with dial indicator gets me "0" left back corner,+ ".005" right back corner, + ".008" front right corner, and +".009" left front corner. Vise sweeps in at all 0's. Indicator between table and column indicates .001 max movement when cutting. Cannot figure out way to indicate ram without letting it hang all the way out thereby inducing more problems. Finish is really good everything seems to work ok. I am cutting against solid jaw also. What kind of accuracy should I be getting and how do I get there. This is over a 3" sq piece of metal. TIA for any help. Mark ------- Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2004 05:16:45 -0000 From: volzmechatronicx~xxyahoo.com Subject: Re: Another Rhodes shaper question. Mark-- Some thoughts-- Shapers are not space age machines...they didn't make it much more than half-way into the last century. In "files" here is the only Military Standard I have found dealing with shapers of any sort, albeit for 20+ inchers, and most likely (I didn't notice for sure when I just re-paged thru it) fitted with a traveling front table support. (See: MIL-S-23375D). Read the whole thing and note that most of the standard accuracies are in thousands-- 0.001 inches--and not ten thousands. When a traveling front table support is used, these accuracies might be attainable on these type machines in this Mil-Standard...at least when undergoing the U.S. Army's acceptance inspections. Without a front table support there will be some (how much??) droop especially if it is compounded by what people don't tell you: Most people won't tell you is that the table, like the knee on olde tyme vertical mills, is adjusted to proper height for the operation to be conducted and then LOCKED TITE: further up/down movement during this cutting operation is conducted via the slide on the tool head. You also got to take out the slop in the table's traversing slideway: not too tite, not too loose, just rite and continuously lubed. You'll have to use the ram in conducting your tests as it IS used in the actual cutting--it's part of the system: its slideway gibs must be tightened just rite--not too tite and not too loose--and then continuously supplied with proper lubrication. At what surface cutting speed do you think HSS cutters should be run when cutting low hardness medium carbon steels? If you run the cutters too fast they'll dull right quick. Start with the desired cutting speeds and then work backward thru the speed reduction system and adjust it accordingly. Think also about the vise. Pre-Kurt style lock-down vises locked down only as well as the operator was willing to spend the time doing it. It all depended on the accuracy required in the work he was cutting versus the time alloted to cutting each one. A non Kurt type vise can be locked down, but you have to tighten down the gibs on the moveable jaw to do so--then you have to untighten the gib screws/bolts to open the jaws. Normally a "compromise" of sorts is arrived at: gibs not too tite so the jaws can still be readily opened, but tite enuf so you can still use the paper trick between the parallels and the work and tap the work snuggly down at final tightening of the jaw. As they say, it's an "Art". :-) Just some thoughts-- Art (Houston) ------- Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2004 10:19:20 -0000 From: "dreilanderecht" Subject: Re: Another Rhodes shaper question. Sounds like your table is drooping a little...But how are you adjusting it? There is a technique that helps with a slighty droopy table. Set it to the height wanted, set the front support, then adjust the table down to put a load onto the front support. This can improve the results from a slightly tired machine. If this is not sufficient then you may need to look into the arrangements. Many shapers have a square slide on the top of the cross slide and a dovetail on the lower. Some have a gibe on the back face of the square and another on the dovetail, which is a good arrangement, but some of the wmaller machines only have the one on the dovetail. This means that if wear has taken place on either the slide or the bolted on piece that runs on the back face, there is no direct way to take it up. So if there is a gibstrip on that back face of the top slide, you can take it up, and it will allow taking up even if the surface was remachined, which could be done if a machine is badly worn. But it is more likely in you case that it just needs adjusting. If there is no gibbstrip, it is naturally a bit harder to deal with. The difficulty being that you either need to change the bolted on piece for one with a slight step in it to take up the clearance, or else modify things to include a gibb. There would be other ways to deal with this which we could discuss but perhaps first you could describe the actual arrangements. I'm not sure what you mean by sweeping the ram, I would expect to check the machine by using a dial indicator attached to the ram and moving it in each direction across the table, not under power of course. (I would clamp a piece of ground flat stock on so that the slots don't get in the way.) So what we are checking is that the ram is moving parallel to the table. I would be happy to see results within a thou or so over the travel. My oldest machine would probably be pushing to do that at the moment, but the others would do it. I don't remember what size this machine is, but for a 6 or 7 inch shaper a top speed of around 180 strokes per minute is plenty...the Ammco in the for speed form is supposed to do 40 to 180. regards John ------- Date: Fri, 02 Apr 2004 07:34:38 -0000 From: volzmechatronicx~xxyahoo.com Subject: Re: Lewis serial number > Art - You keep asking for serial numbers for Lewis shapers. What > does the serial number tell you? Can you date them that way? Lynne-- Lewis' don't have any serial numbers. The way you date them is that before 1937 they had square slideways; in 1937 they changed to vee- slideways. To get the most accurate date, you have to have the sales documents. On mine however, I've been quite successful in dating it by turning it upside down, cleaning a portion of its bared base metal, applying by swab tincture of iodine, and then rapidly counting its rings before the tincture evaporates. After doing that procedure just once, it has always wanted more dates. :-) Art ------- Date: Thu, 20 May 2004 08:46:45 -0000 From: volzmechatronicx~xxyahoo.com Subject: Perfecto Shaper wuz: Re: Odd Shaper Charlie--A number of this group's members have Perfecto shapers; I am one of the fortunate ones with a powered 5-inch model. You can see PIX of various Perfectos here in "photos" and in "photos" at our overflow site: http://www.groups.yahoo.com/group/Metal_Shapers_Pix. When you're at the other site, be sure to go to "files" and download the 2 PDF files on cutting gears--they're at the bottom of the "files" listings. You should also check our archives here and search for keywords "gear cutting"; there has been quite a spirited and on-going discussion on cutting gears with shapers. Although not common, there are a few Perfectos floating around in the USA. The only importer was Caldwell Industries of Luling, Texas, who have been defunct since the late '70's. I don't think that they ever sold many--they were too expensive back in the '70's when they were trying to sell them. Perfectos were made in 2 sizes--5-inch and 7- inch stroke--and in both manual and powered versions. Apparently, since you added a motor, you have one of the powered ones. I know of no operators manuals extant for any of the Perfectos. It is such a simple machine, in all of its versions, that quite possibly there never were any manuals. The English site http://www.lathes.co.uk has an article concerning the Perfecto shaper in its "Archives". Also, in the sales literature that is offered there, is a packet of 20 pages of sales flyers that Perfecto printed concerning the various machines that they offered; this may possibly be of interest to you, but it is NOT any sort of user's manual. Perfecto has been out of business for a number of years. It is unknown what became of their records or any other documentation at that time. There are no lists to interpret what the stamped letters & numbers, supposedly some sort of serialization code, on the individual ID tags mean so don't ask "When was my Perfecto made?". I don't know what the paint color is that they used either. Mine is a working tool and will be left as it is; the person who "wins" it at my estate sale can paint it any color that he so pleases--I won't care. If you intend to repaint and "beautify" your baby, I recommend that you take a chip of paint to a reputable paint store selling quality paint and have them match it for you. The Perfecto is a manually lubed machine. The operator must keep it lubed before, DURING, and after operations. A quality waylube oil is recommended on everthing that moves although straight 30 SAE non- deterg will work fine, you just will have to use more as it will run off faster. Wallies chainsaw lube is 30 SAE and has the same "cling anti-runoff" additive, but it doesn't have the additive that improves "slickness". It also will work fine and is cheap. If you don't like oil on your floor, you will need to devise a pan of sorts to catch the drippings--and it WILL drip--all over. If your interest is "how do I use a shaper?", there are numerous manuals and tutorials in both of our "files" sections--both "here" and "over there" at PIX. You just have to take the time to download them and then read them. I recommend that you download and save them to either your hard drive or to a ZIP disk--print out those that you wish to refer to again. Make sure to download especially the South Bend shaper operators manual--it has a lot of good poop in it. It's time to go down now into my dungeon and pet my Perfecto, tuck it in for the nite (wee hours of the morn), snuff the candles...and go back upstairs to dream of sugar plums. Art (Houston) ------- Date: Tue, 01 Jun 2004 23:17:18 -0000 From: "Joe Guidry" Subject: Re: Height of South Bend 7" shaper cabinet? Reid, on the Southbend cabinet, 27 1/2 tall (chip tray is additional 2"), 15 3/4" wide & 33" long, I have my Atlas sitting on top of a double drawer file cabinet with four locking casters, the top of it is 35", just right to stand and see the work, I would guess on the cabinet, not over 100 pounds. Joe Guidry ------- Date: Wed, 02 Jun 2004 02:58:02 -0000 From: "kowallrb" Subject: Re: Height of South Bend 7" shaper cabinet? Joe, thanks a million for the dimensions of the South Bend shaper stand. I planned to weld one up out of 3" sqr. tubing but if your Atlas is stable enough at that height on the file cabinet and casters, I think my plan may be a bit of an over kill. Still, the welded stand helps me rationalize my welder and horizontal band saw. Cheers, Reid ------- NOTE TO FILE: Some excellent general hints on cabinet construction followed and were saved in the Workshop Tips file -- see June 2004. ------- Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2004 05:04:05 -0000 From: volzmechatronicx~xxyahoo.com Subject: Re: South Bend Shaper Vice >> Is it common when affixing the SB shaper vice, using the key and keyway slot in the table, to find the jaws of the vice are not parallel with the table? Mine were out by 0.015. So, I just took the key out, aligned the vice using an indicator, and tightened the bolt. I noticed on the bottom of the vice that there a number of cap screws (I think 4). I assume I could loosen them and make minor adjustments, if I were so inclined. But it looks like more trouble then it is worth. << Bill -- It all depends on what degree of precison you want, and if you want the key set properly to align the vise jaws. >> And just how does one set the angle of the vice? Since the degree stampings on the base seem rough, it would appear that they are useless except for the most gross settings and one is forced to a universal protractor to achieve any level of accuracy. << How many divisions (indices) are on your vise's base, 360? The rule for scales is that you can "interpret" half way between the scale's lines: if it has 360 divisions you can "interpret" to the nearest 30 minutes or 1/2 of a degree, if the lines themselves are accurately stamped to begin with. None of the shaper vises that I have seen have a Vernier type scale for "closer interpretaion". To obtain more precision a more precise instrument would be needed. The cheaper universal bevel protractors have Vernier scales readable to 5 minutes of angle; more expensive micrometer protractors can be read to one minute of angle. My Lewis vise doesn't have any scales--you have to use a protractor from the onset...or eyeball it Goldilocks style: "Just rite!" >> Given how the rest of the machine is built, I found this surprising. Did South Bend have a rationale for what they did? Bill Kuehsel Cold Spring, NY << Probably cost...and if the machinist operator needed more precision, he should use his more precise protractor. Art (Houston) ------- Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2004 18:33:01 -0000 From: volzmechatronicx~xxyahoo.com Subject: Re: Interesting item on eBay web site You were lucky to snag your Lewis with the OEM vise as they are extremely hard to find. Did you get everything pictured--the stand, etc.? I don't envy your 2-way white-knuckles fright-flight up the NAFTA Speed-Way (I-35) to Dallas and back: I'd still be shaking in my boots. Before you turn on the motor, make sure that everything that should move--turns or rotates--has lube AND moves FREELY when the shaper is turned over by hand. You can start with just SAE 30 motor oil while you secure proper waylube for actual operation. Consider fabbing a pan for used oil, as this is a gravity lubed (non-return) machine. Carefully, remove all surface rust preferably as non-abrasively as you're able to. When the previous owner stored it outside under a tarp for the winter he hadn't insured that all non-painted surfaces were adequately protected with a surface sealant such as cosmoline (the Green Machine's favorite). I would suggest starting with Naval Jelly which will remove only the actual rust and leave a grayish protective (sorta like a crude Parkerized finish) until you're ready to go further, if you are. Many of my Lewis' bare surfaces still have that sorta Parkerized finish from applications of Naval Jelly. Before you start into cutting speeds, feeds, and DOCs, figure out, with your pulleys and motor RPM, the range of ram speeds that are possible. (In the Archives here is a message that I posted about a year ago in reply to Tom B's (Hawaii) request on my Lewis' speed reduction arrangement. I'll relocate and post that Msg # again.) When you do the calcs, be sure to use the pulley's pitch diameter and not its outside diameter--Chicago Die Cast pullies' pitch diameters are listed as 0.25 inches LESS than their listed ODs. The Lewis was never intended to be an industrial machine. It was intended for light use by hobbiests and for educational training use. Compared to a heavy 8-inch Shape-Rite, it is nowhere near as robust-- the Havir machine, though, was intended for use in manufacturing. I have a 1/4HP 1725RPM motor on mine which is more than adequate for non-production, one-off, use. A 1/3HP motor is more than enuf. Take your time and enjoy your new "friend". Once everything appears to be moving freely manually with adequate lube, check all parts to insure that they're properly mounted and firmly attached and that they are complete and without damage. I can help with dimensioned hand drawn sketches if you need to make a FEW parts. My shop is a one man, non-OSHA, shop so I have 1940's style belt guards: pure air, so beware! You may wish to consider fabricating belt guards--I made a "half pants" guard for my largest reduction pulley from glued-up pine and plywood. Painted, it appears like it's metal: easy to do--an afternoon's pleasure while listening to the Astros loose anutha one: DRATZ!!! I know that it's about a 3 hour drive one way from Santa Tonyville to H-towne, but you may wish to join us--the Bayou City Home Metal Shop Club--at one of our monthly meetings on the second Saturday of each month. (See: http://www.homemetalshopclub.org ) The meetings are at 1 PM, a group of us regulary have lunch prior at Logan's in the nearby environs, and, if you arrive B4 noon, the Wholesale Tool outlet store is open to then to get those much "needed" accessories and tooling. What other "friends" will your Lewis share the stable with? My Lewis shaper has a sibling Lewis mill and my Benchmaster horizontal mill has just greeted his long lost nephew, a 1950's 1-ton Benchmaster punch press--and then there are the others.... Art (Houston North) See these Messages in re my Lewis' speeds, feeds, and DOC's: 7732 & 5458. Do you have access (a nearby University Library) to a copy of the "Machining Data Handbook" as it has about 20+ pages of cutting data for Planers (Shapers) for various type materials for both HSS and carbide tools. ------- Date: Fri, 08 Oct 2004 00:51:16 -0000 From: "Peter Verbree" Subject: Planer flat belt drive??? Greetings all: I have been working at my 1867 P&W planer recently and am getting ready to build some sort of reduction drive to power it. The drive pulleys are 10" and it takes 2 turns to move the table 1". So... can anyone advise me what the usual belt speed should be for this style of machine? I expect that 20fpm cutting speed would be plenty fast. This would need a belt speed of 1250 belt fpm. Does anyone out there have any ideas on this?? Thanks Pete ------- Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2004 21:01:31 -0500 From: "Mario L Vitale" Subject: Re: Planer flat belt drive??? Pete, according to Machinery's Handbook (an ultra-modern 1963 edition) planer roughing speeds using a HSS shear angle tool, depending on the cutter size (1/4" Thru 1") And the hardness of the material being cut (Cast iron thru free machining steel) range from around 20 to 70 fpm, so it sounds like your 20fpm is, while conservative, probably about right. It sounds like you want to be turning that 10" pulley at about 480 rpm. Mario ------- Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2004 23:22:42 EDT From: n8as1x~xxaol.com Subject: Re: Planer flat belt drive??? probably not what u need ,but most lineshaft info i have come across says 200 rpm w/ some individual machines asking for 175 to 250 ,by means of pulley ratios on counter shaft /lineshaft...... i acquired a 1/3 hp 1100 dc motor & controller for my circa civil war gould shaper ( 6''x 10" 500 lb beast designed for 3/8 bits) , & though it is sacriledge , looks like i am going that way ......however,am getting enuf line shaft stuff that it is tempting to set one up .........others argue a vfd is a better answer......before i was given the d c motor , i scavenged a xransmission from sears 10 hp mower.......& w/ a 1750mtr , i thot the speeds cud be set in the ball park ......FWIW ....w/ a non" fast return ", u r cutting only 1/2 the time , so speeds need to be calculated accordingly ( if this is redundant ,sorry) ..... best wishes docn8as ------- Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 21:09:12 -0000 From: volzmechatronicx~xxyahoo.com Subject: PIC--Re: Old machines In Metal_Shapersx~xxyahoogroups.com, rammercx~xxw... wrote:> Joe, > Art recently sold me his little hand operated shaper which brings my > collection to 4. Two I bought off the UK ebay site and had shipped to > the US. The little Adepts are probably the least expensive with the best > features. For a machine that you actually want to use, you would be hard > pressed to beat the Perfecto. > Pictures of my Bradley and Perfecto are at the Yahoo pix site. > Arthur, keep your eyes open, they turn up, Rick FYI--A PIC of Rick's "new" manual 5-inch shaper, that he obtained from me, is posted here: Metal_Shapers>Photos>Traversing Head Shaper. A traversing head manual shaper/planer should be easily assembled from a couple of cheap import off-the-shelf X-Y cross-slide vises, two cheap import angle plates (one acts as the table and the other "glues" the two cross-slides together at 90 degrees), some steel or aluminum plate and assorted nuts and bolts. One of these contraptions is on my back burner ...way back...but, I did use cross-slides in a similar manner to construct my working model benchtop CMC planer/shaper. PRIZE AWARD!!!! I offer a PRIZE AWARD for the first group member to construct an OPERATING manual shaper/planer, using X-Y cross-slide vises as above described, and post both PIX and a complete description/ how-to here. The PRIZE AWARD will be from me (so you know it will be splendid) and the winner will be confirmed by my personnaly selected esteemed panel of Ogre Oracles. Don't dally! (Thinking "planer" may make your design easier to visualize. Hint- Hint!) Art (Houston. The peach tree out front is ablaze with blossums-- peaches to eat by the end of May! The Japanese purple flowered magnolia bush is also festooned with spring finery. But, it's much too hot for February!!!) ------- Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2005 02:46:04 -0000 From: "mclabss" Subject: Ram position adjustment problem for 1902 Smith & Mills Hi, During the course of bring back to life my 16 "1902 Smith & Mills crank shaper, I discovered that there was no ram position adjustment. I basically losen the top nut and move the ram by hand. This model does not have the top ram adjustment like later S&M models. It has a crank type in the rear of the ram(whole assembly missing.) Does any one know how these rear crank type adjustment works. It appears that the shaper was repaired some time in the past and the crank arm connector appears to have been an inhouse made replacement. Any information or rough drawings would be appreciated. thanks in advance, Earl ------- Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2005 04:06:35 -0000 From: volzmechatronicx~xxyahoo.com Subject: Deja Vu and Smith & Mills Too--wuz: Ram adjustment 1902 Smith & Mills Earl--Info on Smith & Mills is easily found by using our "Search" box. I just used it--again--and found Message #9466. Plug that number into the "Message" box...and...there you have it: Nebel! Call them and ask the experts anything about Smith & Mills. Art (Houston) ------- Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 18:05:02 -0000 From: "Art Volz" Subject: Re: I shaped something! In Metal_Shapersx~xxyahoogroups.com, "Mike Danford" wrote: > Got my little Atlas 7B running last night. > Next comes the question about the vise plans that I thought used to > be here but I now cannot find. Thought I might give that a try to > get a better suited vise. Also gonna build Art's tool holder. Mike-- A one-page dimensioned set of drawings, in PDF format, for that AMMCO style vise can be seen by first going to "Links" here, then click on in succession: !Archive>Files>Metal_Shapers . The file you want is "ShaperVise.PDF". This has the basic dimensions and can be further scaled as needed. Wholesale Tool has ACME threaded rod and nuts, some in LH thread, but a RH thread will works as well. I suggest using store-bought ACME nuts and turn them down to use as an insert silver-soldered in place as ACME taps are expensive. eBay often has orphaned swivel bases from mill vises that are small enuf to adapt for use with this AMMCO style vise. Note that the AMMCO style vise swivels directly on the AMMCO shaper table, via the swivel stud in the base plate in the plans; per the plans, this swivel plate is pinned and then screwed to the vise body. While you're downloading these plans, also download my two files there as well: "/metal/holder1.jpg" and "/metal/holder2.jpg". Harprit Singh Sandhu offers a set of beautiful castings for making the Atlas shaper vise which has a swivel base as well. See at: http://www.harpritsan.com . Art ------- Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 15:52:13 -0500 From: "Scott S. Logan" Subject: RE: Re: Shaper diagnostics - round two A new to me old shaper! On Monday, August 15, 2005, Jim <> wrote: > section, how convient was that? I didn't see the file in this group > for that Art Volz Shaper Tool Holder, can someone direct me to it? Many of the older files have been archived to: http://lathe.com/YahooGroups/ To make room for newer files here. The files I think you are looking for are: http://lathe.com/YahooGroups/Files/Metal_Shapers/holder1.jpg And http://lathe.com/YahooGroups/Files/Metal_Shapers/holder2.jpg Enjoy! Scott Logan ------- Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2005 15:30:44 -0700 (PDT) From: Jonas Thomas Subject: Re: Re:argon in submarine diesels. Back to shapers and the way foward is to go backward With gas going beyond 3+ dollars a gallon I wonder sometimes need to look at where we're going. I cringe when I hear pundits suggest that the way out of our problems is to produce more energy, drill more...etc. Sometimes I think that maybe the way to move forward is to go backward. What do I mean about this? For example take a look at the Amish, they lead good quality of life, and aren't even connected to the power grid. Consider a shaper, it has a lot of nice things going for it. HSS Positive rake tooling that means that the energy required to machine is less than a milling machine. Consider its roots. It was driven off line shafts. With energy cost going through the roof, the concept of powering a machine tool directly from alternative energy starts sounding kind of appealing. While gerbil might not be practical, direct wind, or water isn't sounding so stupid >From what I understand, the nail in the coffin was that it was slow and having to pay a guy to watch over it didn't make sense. Sooooo. When energy was cheap the solution was to have complex machine tools which use complex (expensive tools) that use a lot of energy to produce a whole bunch of parts in a real hurry. < I think the way forward here is to go backwards. Wouldn't it make sense to create CNC shapers which would use simple tools, required less energy (or use alternate). So they're slow, build more of them or don't be in such a hurry. With state of the art controls, you could do really complex stuff automatically which would reduce direct labor required to run them. Why not mount one of those shake em-up flashlights on the ram, which could power up the electronic to drive the steppers on the down feed and the cross feed? Unlike a milling machine part of the elegance of a shaper is you don't need a lot of power going through the leadscrews because you're now moving in the cut. Like I said I think the way forward is to go backward. Perhaps this is the time for the re-birth of the shaper. ------- Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2005 09:31:14 -0000 From: "Art Volz" Subject: Finding Shapers in the North West [OR ANYWHERE] --- In Metal_Shapersx~xxyahoogroups.com, "Doug Rhodes" wrote: >> Back on topic: any ideas about how to find a worthy shaper (possibly in need of some TLC) in the Pacific Northwest? So many on eBay say "no shipping, local pickup only" and they are so far away! << Doug-- Shipping a shaper from the mid-west, or the east, to the north west is usually cost prohibitive and, as you point out, few sellers really want to crate up a shaper and ship it. And then there's the other problem--how many shapers of the smaller sizes were ever sold in the north west? Some thoughts--not all of which are good: Have you ever been to the PRIME expo? How about the next one? It's right up there...once a year. Find out who were the used machine tool vendors from years past and get in contact with them. They often have stuff that they don't usually bring because its hard to sell. Maybe one or two have that shaper that you're yearning for. --Advertize locally--put a WANTED ad in the newspaper classifieds under "Machinery for Sale". Guys thinking of selling their shaper often watch these ads first to get a feel for what's selling and what the asking price is. --Join area hobbyist machining clubs, if there are any, and don't forget the live steamers: their engines and cars usually involve a lot of machining. They often know who has what for sale. --Advertise on eBay. I've seen quite a few people list an auction where there is nothing for sale: they want to buy that something instead. --Are there any used/new machinery sales companies in your neck of the woods? Go talk to them--make friends--they often know who has what and wants to sell it. Older machinery has little value even for trade-ins on new machinery: there is NO industrial market for shapers in the US and sellers of new machinery often really don't want to bother with the older stuff. --Do the same with the scrap yards. They also often know who has what and needs to move it out to make room. Make friends; use their eyes and ears. --Read all newspapers and local bulletins daily. Do the same on eBay. --Post your wants on grocery store bulletin boards. --Make it a habit to hit the weekend garage sales--often you get lucky. --Pray often. It always helps--at least for us on this board -- to know what you're looking for: an Atlas, a Logan, a SB, a AMMCO...maybe a Lewis...??? What are you looking for? Art (Houston) ------- Date: Fri, 09 Dec 2005 05:15:10 -0000 From: "joe mama" Subject: Re: Thank You Mario, whilst we are waxing nostalgic, I have a 40+ year old Airstream trailer that strongly resembles the DC 3 that it was modeled after sitting out back. Thinking of turning it into a gray bus style machine shop. joe ------- Date: Thu, 8 Dec 2005 20:36:39 -0600 From: "Jean Spiegelberg" Subject: Unidentified Shaper I'm a new member of this group.a retired maintenance welder. I picked up a shaper (no name on it). It weighs about 250# - bench-top model, has a round access door, 7" slot on top of ram with a #309 cast into it. Table size is 8"x17". It has an automatic advance on the cross feed. It has a tool holder that has "J. H. Williams Tool Company - TH-05" and uses ¼" tool bit. Couldn't find any names or numbers on any of the castings. Everything is cast and dovetailed. Seems reasonable quality. Would anyone be able to help me identify? Bob S. -------- Date: Fri, 09 Dec 2005 06:55:44 -0000 From: "joe mama" Subject: Re: Unidentified Shaper Bob, no name? Hmmm! Sounds like a Lewis. Have a look in the fotos section here & in our pix group & see if the pictures of Lewis shapers therein don't look like yours. Or go the the www.Lathes.Co.Uk site & look in their archives under shapers to see if you can find a match. Happy questing, joe ------- Date: Fri, 09 Dec 2005 08:10:52 -0000 From: "Art Volz" Subject: Re: Unidentified Shaper Bob-- Please excuse Joe. He is our oldest group member and is troubled daily with ever advancing memory loss due to senility. Joe does have a Lewis shaper and the PIX that he took of it when he still was mentally competent...and still remembered having a Lewis...are at: http://lathe.com/YahooGroups/Photos/Metal_Shapers_Pix/Lewis . I believe Joe has put his Lewis into the trailer that he built, from a discarded DC-3 fuselage to be his shop, and has forgotten that it is there. :-) The number cast into the forward top of your ram is NOT "309". Apparently, you read the number from the right side of the column; reading the number from the left side of the column it becomes "603" which is the part number for the ram of the "600-series" Lewis shapers. It is the only number cast in any part of the Lewis. The Williams tool holder part number is "TH-0-S" NOT "TH-05". The "O" means it has a shank of 3/8 x 7/8 x 5 inches, the "TH" means it is a lathe turning tool holder and holds the HSS tool bit at a slight angle from the perpendicular, and the "S" means it is the Straight tool holder of a set of 3 that included a "L" for Left and a "R" for right. Ideally, the HSS tool bit is held perpendicular or at 90 degrees to the work; the Williams "THT" tool holders, with the trailing "T" meaning carbide, will hold the HSS tool bit at the correct angle. Check the slot dimensions of your lantern tool post. The Lewis Machine Tool Company specs called for a 1/2 inch wide slot that would take the next larger size tool holder. Armstrong and Williams both made adjustable shaper tool holders. Armstong made a small 3/8 x 7/8 shaper tool holder, their No. 39, and both Williams and Armstong made shaper tool holders for 1/2 inch wide slots, their No. 40's (or the older Williams No. 90). See also Tony G's site for additional info: http://www.lathes.co.uk/lewis . This should get you started. Don't look for a serial number as your Lewis won't have one. Don't ask when your kit was cast--anywhere between 1935 and 1960. Don't ask what color it was painted either; it was painted whatever the kit builder had on hand. Also join us at http://www.groups.yahoo.com/group/Lewis_Machine_Tool . Art (Houston) ------- Date: Sat, 14 Jan 2006 22:07:48 -0600 From: J R Williams Subject: Re: Logan 8" shaper transport >>I'm picking up a 'new to me' logan 8" shaper and can pick it up with my pickup truck or a Ford Windstar Van. The van is MUCH nicer to drive. My question is can a Logan shaper be put on it's side for transport? Which side? If I do this, any chance of damage? Cheers, Brad << Brad: I would remove the door and lay the machine on it's left side, as you face the machine, and make a simple skid with a couple 2x 4 's and a few cross members. This will prevent damage to the cross feed shaft or the floor of the van. The door removal will prevent it opening at the wrong time. Strap the machine to the skid. The skid will slide into the van and not catch on any of the floor or carpet. The motor will bounce around but that should not present any problem. I hauled mine a thousand miles in the back of my pickup truck and tied so it could not tip over. Have fun and do not hurt anyone. JRW ------- Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2006 15:46:04 -0000 From: "Ed Godwin" Subject: Re: Logan 8" shaper transport Brad, I would suggest your pickup as the better of the two choices, but you know best. I strongly suggest that you break the machine down into two pieces rather than try to move it whole. Your Logan will separate into two pieces with the removal of four 5/16" or 3/8" bolts holding the shaper to the base, two 1/4" bolts that secure the belt guard and the final drive belt. At that point the two pieces are much more easily loaded in the van. The base only needs to be secured to prevent it joining you in the front seat and so that the variable speed handwheel isn't damaged. The upper part, the shaper, can be bolted down upright to a small wood skid and then roped to attachment points if you have them. I'd bring along a cordless drill and some 3/8" x 2" lag screws to make your skid and screw the shaper to it. If not, wrap it up in shipping blankets and wedge it in with a mattress or something. The main damage point is the ratchet on the end of the cross-feed shaft. The belt guard is also pretty fragile. You might want to remove them both. You'll need a very small, short screwdiver to remove the ratchet and a couple of 1/2" or 9/16" wrenches. I brought a Porter-Cable 7" (essentially the same machine) down from Pennsylvania to Florida in two parts in the back of the pickup truck with only ropes keeping it from moving around and a tarp to protect it from some white stuff they had floating around in the air and laying on the ground. Never moved once over 1200 miles including playing dodge-em in Washington D.C. Ed in Florida ------- Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2006 07:40:40 -0000 From: "Art Volz" Subject: Make Your Own SBend, AMMCO, Atlas Vise-- wuz:Re: Files, shaper vise.exe A few years ago, Keith V. uploaded a self-executing e-Drawing to Metal_Shapers group of an AMMCO shaper vise clone that he had designed. Anyone wanting to build such a vise, useable also on a small mill, start with Keith's super dimensioned drawings. I've uploaded Keith's e-Drawing to "Files" at http://www.groups.yahoo.com/group/Lewis_Machine_Tool and at http://www.groups.yahoo.com/group/Lathe_2000 To view the e-Drawing vise files, when the drawing opens, first move the "cover sheet" out of the way and then click onto "animate". I think you know what the rest of the buttons do. Thanx Keith for the original drawings...and to Doug for saving a copy before they were inadvertently "lost" and sending them to me. Art ------- Date: Wed, 01 Feb 2006 23:28:02 -0000 From: "swellwelder" Subject: G&E shaper vise My G&E 20-24 universal shaper has its'original vise, and in attempting to turn it 90 degrees, can find no way to unlock it that will allow it to swivel. I know it can swivel, for it has degrees marked around its circumference, but there are no visible means of loosening it to allow it to turn. And, no it can't just be unbolted and moved 90 degrees, because the bolt pattern is not square! Dale Nelson ------- Date: Thu, 02 Feb 2006 01:47:42 -0000 From: "gdstorrick" Subject: Re: G&E shaper vise On my 20" G&E, you would just loosen the four bolts that hold it to the table and it will swivel. What looks like a base is a collar that holds the whatever-you-call-it-swiveling-axis of the vise proper down flat against the table. It is a simple and effective design. Gary ------- Date: Thu, 02 Feb 2006 04:42:37 -0000 From: "Art Volz" Subject: Re: G&E shaper vise Hi Dale--Have you downloaded the manual in our Archives yet? (see "Links") It has an exploded isometric drawing, with parts list, of your vise. Go to: http://lathe.com/YahooGroups/Files/Metal_Shapers and then click onto "TM 9-3418 Shaper.PDF". The vise is at PDF page 19 of 36 pages. It appears that all you have to do is to loosen the four nuts on the swivel base's hold down bolts, turn as many degrees as desired, and then retighten the four nuts. I know the manual is for Mitts & Merrill shapers...they bought G&E ...back in the dark ages. Art (Houston) ------- Date: Thu, 2 Feb 2006 14:49:16 -0500 From: "John Forney" Subject: Re: G&E shaper vise Hi Dale, your swivel neck on the bottom of the vise is stuck. You'll probably have to take the vise off, turn it over, and take out the ring of bolts that hold the pressure pad to the neck. Take it all apart and clean/grease. Shouldn't have any more problems after that. Use a moly grease that won't dry out and harden up. The base is a precise fit around the neck so might have to let it soak with penetrating oil to break it free. John ------- Date: Sun, 05 Feb 2006 05:20:38 -0000 From: "metalmill52" Subject: Motor Driven Shaft Bushings - Oil Holes? Hi All, I've been running my SB 7 inch shaper, trying to learn how to use it. Noticed some squealing on one side of the motor driven pulley shaft. It was hot, other side was cool to touch. Stopped work, disassembled. Plenty of oil in cups, but no hole in bushing (at least not one I can see). Question - Is there supposed to be a hole aligned with the cup? If so, and I don't just have one that is clogged, what size drill would be appropriate to open up? I'm aware I'd need to deburr the inside after drilling. Many Thanks, Bill C. Pensacola, FL ------- Date: Sun, 05 Feb 2006 15:13:10 -0000 From: "Geoff Kingma" Subject: Re: Motor Driven Shaft Bushings - Oil Holes? I had a similar problem with the same babbited bushings on my Ammco when I aquired it. One side was hot and the other ok. Took it apart and found dried-up black gunk packed in the bearing. Cleaned it up and poked a pin (I think I used a scriber) through the oil hole which was blocked and voila, it worked fine. I think I caught it just in time as that babbit material was about to say its last prayers. If it, indeed, does not have any hole present, I would think one about 3/32" or 1/8" diam would be ok. Regards, Geoff ------- Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2006 03:46:59 -0800 (PST) From: Art Volz Subject: Hewes & Phillips Eccentric Geared Shaper In 1880, Hewes & Phillips Iron Works of Newark, New Jersey, started manufacturing a 9-inch stroke shaper and an improved version of it in 1882. These shapers both employed a novel eccentric geared mechanism to achieve a steady slow cutting stroke, and a rapid quick return. A few of us shaper nuts, to inlude Joe W., Irby J., Rick M., Peter V., Jim C. and myself have started a new group-- http://www.groups.yahoo.com/groupHewes_Phillips --with the purpose of reverse-engineering and making 3-inch stroke version benchtop/tabletop working cutting models of this shaper. In "Photos" at this group is a copy, in small JPEG format, of the original Patent Papers. Jim C., one of our group members has an actual REAL H&P shaper, complete and running--PIX of his machine are in "Photos" at H&P also. While the Patent, itself, describes the gearing as "eccentric" the patent drawing makes the gears appear elliptical, albeit rotating eccentrically on their focii. The intital quest of the group is to replicate the gearing action. To do so, gears, either eccentric or elliptical must be made. Currently, our focus is on how to make the gears. That's where we're at for now...why don't you join us...in our new Quest. Art (Houston) ------- Date: Wed May 31, 2006 5:11 pm (PDT) From: "metalmill52" waclearyx~xxcox.net Subject: Vise Article in June issue of NEMES Gazette Greetings All: I wanted to let you all know that Kay Fisher (the Shaper Column author) was kind enough to print a brief article on the vise I built from Keith Violette's drawings found here (thanks Keith!). You can see the article online if you go to: http://www.neme-s.org/shapers/bp.html then click on the "Gazettes" link (lower left corner) then the June 2006 Issue when the archive of Gazettes pops up. In addition to thanking Keith for the drawings, I'd also like to thank Kay for his efforts with the Shaper Columns, our moderator Scott Logan for preserving the drawings on his separate archive, and Art Volz for publishing the self executing 3d drawings on the Lewis Group. Best Regards, Bill C. Pensacola, FL ------- Rhodes shaper assembly question Posted by: "Michael Moore" mmoorex~xxeurospares.com Date: Sat Jul 8, 2006 9:23 pm (PDT) I've pulled my Rhodes apart - except the bull gear won't come out of the chassis. It appears that they must have pressed the shaft into the gear after putting the gear into the chassis, and then inserting the shaft through the side of the chassis. Not being able to remove it at this time is mainly just an annoyance - I've pushed the gear to the side and scrubbed around on the inside wall of the chassis to remove crud, and I've done my best to flush out the bushing the shaft runs in with shaft in place. For my future reference, can anyone confirm that the shaft was pressed into the gear after the gear was installed? The bushing seems to be a pretty good fit, but it would be nice to know for "just in case". cheers, Michael ------- Re: Rhodes shaper assembly question Posted by: "bluunt" dnkjwilsonx~xxxtra.co.nz Date: Sun Jul 9, 2006 3:45 am (PDT) Michael, I am not familiar with the Rhodes shaper; however on both my Douglas and Viceroy shapers the outboard ecentric must be removed first followed by the bush/bearing housing. Then the bullgear and shaft can be withdrawn through the side access door. Hopefully this is of some assistance. Ken ------- Re: Flushing a South Bend Shaper Oil Pump [Metal_Shapers] Posted by: "Art Volz" volzmechatronicx~xxyahoo.com Date: Sat Jul 15, 2006 4:25 pm (PDT) Ron-- wrote: > I am a newbie and I just bought a SB 7" shaper and it is in great > shape. However I want to drain, flush and replace the old oil in the > pump. What is the best flushing agent to use and how long should I > flush it? Lowest speed and at the at longest extension (7")? Before you do anything, does your pump work now? Does it pump oil to BOTH ram ways, the bull gear, and the rocker arm shoe? Get the pump pumping first. See at "Files" here "SB-Force-Feed-Diagram". You should have, already, made yourself a copy of the SB Army manual in our Archives. Note level of oil. If it was my SB-7, AFTER I determined that the pump was pumping properly, I would simply drain the old oil and wipe out the remainder with disposable rags; I wouldn't use any flush solvent juice. The oil specified by South Bend for the shaper oil pump is "Medium weight good grade machine oil. Saybolt Universal Viscosity approximately 150-240 seconds at 100F. This pump provides forced feed lubrication to ram ways, bull gear and rocker arm shoe. (Other parts are manually lubricated. Same oil may be used). 1 QT capacity." This poop is on the tag on the outside of your small side access door. Vactra #2 ISO 68 will work but may be a bit stiff--too heavy. My best information is that the "tackifier" that once made Vactra "sticky" has been removed by request of the Feds. Supposedly it is still in Vacuoline 1409 ISO 68. So if you buy Vactra for its "tackifier" you're just paying too much for nothing. Sorta like buying Super Unleaded for a normal compression car that only needs Regular: stupid. The other thing that way-lubes like Vactra supposedly still contain is a slippy-slidy stuff that reduces friction. Your South Bend won't know the difference--none of my machines do--but your wallet will. If you really think you need the tackifier get Vacuoline...wherever you might be able to find it...I don't know where, nor do I care. Go to "Files" again and look at the second page of "Lube.DOC". As you can see, SUS 150-240 x~xx 100F is equivalent to 20W SAE motor oil. The last 2 gallon jug of 20W SAE I bought from Tractor Supply Company cost me around $12. (I don't buy Afrin nasal spray at 8 bucks either--the generic stuff at $1.50 is identical in chemical composition.) Get the non-detergent version UNLESS you add an inline filter to your system. The SB doesn't have a filter. Detergerant oils hold small particles of dirt in suspension that need to be filtered out before repumped for lubing the shaper: the suspended particles will grind away...and away...and.... The non-detergent oil, hovwever, tends to precipitate (sp?) the dirt particles by gravity to the bottom of the sump...where your manually applied rag periodically sucks 'em up. > I plan on replacing the oil with Mobil No. # 2 Vactra way oil, a good > choice??? Any source for serial number build dates available??? I don't know the latest skinny, but LeBlonde, which once made spare parts after South Bend went belly up, might have the info. > Any further tips or guuidance is sincerely appreciated and thanks for > your time.... Go thru our files and photos here, at our PIX extension site, and see "Archives" at "Links" here. Feel free to use our SEARCH BOX to go through tons of past South Bend messages. Art (Houston) ------- Re: Flushing a South Bend Shaper Oil Pump Posted by: "Clive Foster" clive_fosterx~xxtalk21.com Date: Sun Jul 16, 2006 3:19 pm (PDT) Further to Art's excellent post on shaper lubrication I contacted the Castrol Technical Advice dept a few years or so ago concerning lubrication of older machine tools and was told that modern motor oils did not provide the best balance of properties for this sort of duty even though the viscosity rating was correct. I was told that:- 1) Modern motor type oil will provide at least adequate lubrication and probably be superior to that provided by the old type oils originally specified. However:- 2) Motor type oils are designed to operate at relatively high temperatures with relatively high flow rates so are not formulated for low flow rates, wick feeds and general sitting around in bearings and on slides. Depending on formulation varnishing of exposed oil can still be a problem. 3) All modern motor oils are detergent in some degree. Even oils specified as non-detergent gain some such properties as part of the formulation, these days detergent means added detergent not none at all so there will always be more of a tendency to carry debris around than with the older oils. 4) All motor oils have additives to actively remove moisture, especially with cold engines, which generally rely on the oil heating up to re- constitute themselves by releasing water vapour which can subsequently be breathed out. Without re-constitution you can get unpleasant deposits, especially if using a water carried cutting oil. 5) Some motor oils are unkind to some of the yellow metals, especially at room temperature. 6) Depending on the additive package motor oils can react badly with some of the "use neat" heavy duty cutting oils. I have practical experience of very unpleasant smells which were extremely difficult to remove from clothing and (a then more hairy) self. Apparently whether or not you actually get problems depends on the actual additive & feed-stock package of the particular oil you use along with the shop environment and cutting lubricants used. A potentially big problem is that Brand X and Brand Y equivalents may well be sufficiently different that Brand X works for me but not you although you get on fine with Brand Y whilst I cannot use it. Not unexpected with things working fairly close to the edge of their design envelope where a variety of things could potentially tip the balance. Castrol advised me that oils from the Magna and Hyspin AWS range had the most suitable combination of properties and would perform reliably under pretty much all sane conditions. Magna is for general purpose machine use on slide-ways, bearings and gears. Not a sticky, stringy or stinky as a proper old type bed lube but it still hangs on well and strings nicely between meshing gears instead of spraying everywhere. Hyspin AWS is specified as an anti-wear hydraulic oil (not fluid, that's a very different animal) but is also suitable for compressor internals. So far my experiences with these products have been good. My informant said that most vendors would suggest similar products for these duties and that the technical departments of your chosen vendor should be contacted as they should be happy to help, "If they won't help then don't buy from them." Obviously recommended for the job oils will be more expensive than low cost motor oils but the quantities used in HSM work will not be vast and the cost is small compared to rectifying a damaged machine. An almost invariable job on getting a "new to me" older machine is to clean out the deposits left by old and/or unsuitable oils. Never a pleasant job and I, for one, am quite happy to pay a bit more for oil if it means I don't have to do the job again. As always whatever works for you is good but its nice to have a wider view if things do start to go wrong. HTH. Clive ------- Art Volz [Metal_Shapers] Posted by: "kjboydphd" kevin.boydx~xxmnsu.edu Date: Tue Oct 17, 2006 3:16 pm (PDT) Art Volz, frequent contributor to this group, passed away suddenly on Sunday, October 15, 2006. He would have been 65 this December. He is survived by his wife, two daughters, one son, and one grandson. He is also survived by one sister and a collection of nieces and nephews. Visitation will be at the Winford Funeral Home, 8514 Tybor Drive, Houston, from 2 to 8 pm on Thursday, October 19. A funeral will be held at the funeral home at 2 pm on Friday. Interment plans are still pending. Apologies to those who get this message more than once. I am trying to cover all the groups Art frequented. Best regards, Kevin Kevin J. Boyd (Note added by group owner, Scott Logan. I spoke with the Funeral Home, and the above is sadly, true. In addition to the above, Art will be flown to Arlington National Cemetery in Washington DC on the 26th, with internment on the 27th.) ------- NOTE TO FILE: Friends come and go from these groups, some with finality, and they will all be missed. Art was someone very special indeed, who always took time to help anyone needing it. We corresponded directly on several occasions and I always thought of him as my pal in Houston. My deepest sympathy and regards to his family. ------- Re: What's with Adepts? [Metal_Shapers] Posted by: "rjacksonzener" rjacksonhomex~xxzener.net Date: Thu Feb 22, 2007 2:33 am ((PST)) "gwihnan" wrote: > Does anyone k now the name of the Australian company being referred > to here? Thanks! Hubbard, Roger M SARAWAK-EPA-> T-WTE"wrote: > > There is still a company in Australia that manufactures casting > along the lines of the Adept shaper although is has now been re > designed to be powered. I looked at these seriously for a while, but > was still able to locate a second hand Adept & Boxford cheaper on > EBay than new castings. Hi: The company is Hobby Mechanics, located in Brisbane See: http://www.hobbymechanics.com.au/metalmaker.htm Ron ------- Re: Shaper Vises [Metal_Shapers] Posted by: "John A. Landry" gyropilotx~xxautorotation.net Date: Fri May 11, 2007 1:45 pm ((PDT)) On Fri, 11 May 2007 19:05:19 -0000, kevkeller2000 said: >I see that Atlas shaper vise prices on Ebay are ludricous (+$350), I am looking for an alternate vise. Any recommendations? It would be nice to have the swivel and low profile of the atlas vise. < Kevin, I've been very happy using a Palmgren model 425B Low Profile Swivel Machine Vise with my Porter-Cable AS-7 shaper. It has a 4.5" wide jaw, 1-1/4" tall, which opens 4". It's about the closest you're going to come to an Atlas sized shaper vise. Check out this link (scroll down to the bottom of the page)... http://www.palmgren.com/pdf/machinetools6.pdf This vise can be found new on the web for about $200. One pops up on eBay every 6 months or so and usually sells for under $125. Best regards, John L. ------- Re: Whats up with belt guards and covers? [Metal_Shapers] Posted by: "xlch58x~xxswbell.net" Date: Mon Jun 18, 2007 9:31 pm ((PDT)) kc0ji wrote: > Just a quick question. Why are there so many shapers out there missing > belt guards and covers? The old cast guards get broken and or removed in shops over the years where the employees/owners are more worried about production time than pristine 100% original machines. Belt guards are missing from many compressors, just like fan guards are from old cars. Also, as noted the guards are more fragile than the rest of the machine. Charles ------- Automatic feed for a shaper [Metal_Shapers] Posted by: "richardkrebs" nkrebsx~xxsmwireless.net Date: Wed Oct 17, 2007 6:40 am ((PDT)) My neighbor has a 16" Smith & Mills shaper. The lowest setting for the automatic feed is ten thousandths. In order to get a finer surface finish to his work, how can he reset the automatic feed to 5 thousandths? Does he have to change the gear ratio by putting in new gears? If so, what would the procedure be? Any help would be greatly appreciated! Respectfully, Richard Krebs ------- Re: Automatic feed for a shaper Posted by: "Richard Wilson" rwilsonx~xxrhwspn5.com Date: Wed Oct 17, 2007 9:52 am ((PDT)) Hi. I'm not familiar with the feed arrangement for the Smith & Mills, but normally a new ratchet wheel with twice as many teeth should do it. Alternatively, use a broad finishing tool (like a big parting - off tool), ground to a slight curve on the cutting edge. Regards Richard Wilson ------- Re: Automatic feed for a shaper Posted by: "n8as1x~xxaol.com" n8as1x~xxaol.com Date: Wed Oct 17, 2007 6:03 pm ((PDT)) he needs to grind a shear bit for a finish cut of .002-.005 .....my 16 in S/M shaper gives a reflective finished surface needing no polishing ... w/ 1018 ......this is a LARGE radius round nosed bit w/ no back or side rake twisted to 45-60 deg so that a severe negative rake is in effect as it comes forward across the feed lines.......get me an e mail address & i will send a bunch of j pegs showing bit & also a finished surface of a side saddle compound i made for an antique lathe with shaper finish cuts ......it is a fiddly thing, but way better finishes are possible than what i have been able to get w/ my M head...mill... pick up a copy on used books or ebay of machine tool operation by burghardt...vol 2 ...get vol 1 also ...they are very reasonable ...zillion copies...any ed. best wishes docn8as ------- Re: shaper color [Metal_Shapers] Posted by: "jmartin957x~xxaol.com" Date: Tue Oct 23, 2007 9:19 am ((PDT)) 10/23/07 ingramfx~xxyahoo.com writes: > I want to thank each of you who provided input as to the proper > original color for my Rhodes shaper. You all are a great help. > I am new to metal shapers and am looking forward to getting my > Rhodes running. I turned it through by hand. and it turns freely. > It is ugly and needs a good coat of paint before I do anything else. Ugly is fine. I've had mine for fifteen or so years, and the column, table and ram are still the original black - everything else is machine gray. Someday, maybe, I'll finish the rest of it. One thing I would recommend. Mine has no oil tray. Any oil that I used on the bull gear, sliding block or ram link therefore ended up down in the base, all over anything that was stored on the shelves there. So I put a piece of 1/8" steel sheet between the two. In hindsight, I could probably have made it of 1/2" or 3/4" plate and extended it out the front to serve as a footing for a traveling table support. John Martin ------- Re: shaper color Posted by: "RICK MONTAGUE" rammercx~xxwebtv.net Date: Tue Oct 23, 2007 9:51 am ((PDT)) John, Michael Moore bought a Rhodes and started his own shaper site. Lots of good info there. Someone in the group can probably post his URL I seem to have lost it. Rick ------- Re: shaper color Posted by: "Irby Jones" irbyratx~xxcox.net Date: Tue Oct 23, 2007 10:22 am ((PDT)) Michael Moore's site is http://www.eurospares.com/shapers.htm Irby ------- New South Bend [Metal_Shapers] Posted by: "proaconstrictor" proaconstrictorx~xxyahoo.ca Date: Mon Nov 5, 2007 9:26 am ((PST)) I'm lucky, I found an SB shaper in great condition, locally, at a wonderful price. Normally I'm not that lucky. I have two SB shaper oil questions. All the oil got spilled out of the shaper as it was lashed to a moving cart. The machine was nose down and as it came vertical the oil poured out below the ram at the front. The machine needs SUS 150-240 machine oil, or as the military manual states, SUS 200. Apparently that corresponds to ISO 46 circulating oil, which I have no idea about, or know where to look for, in Canada, in 1 quart volume. Is there something similar one might find in an auto mart like maybe compressor oil? Or a brand name. Everything in big stores seems very specific purpose oriented, like chainsaw, compressor etc... Or mostly motor oil. The other question I won't really know the answer to until I put the oil in the machine. I was wondering whether the machine's column and base can commonly develop a leak. Since oil was spilled it seems reasonable that it might migrate along the milled surfaces on the base and pool there. On the other hand, I keep wiping it up. I wondered whether it ever sneaks out and how massive a rebuild is required to fix the problem. I don't see a gasket in the exploded drawing. If I have to take it apart I may as well start with it empty. Anyone ever hear of such an issue? ------- Re: New South Bend Posted by: "ED MAISEY" holmes_ca_2000x~xxyahoo.com Date: Mon Nov 5, 2007 3:03 pm ((PST)) Not sure but I seem to remember a drain plug near the base under or below the round side cover plate. Seems I also bought some oil from Southbend but it was very expensive. Edmund ------- Re: New South Bend Posted by: "proaconstrictor" proaconstrictorx~xxyahoo.ca Date: Mon Nov 5, 2007 11:58 pm ((PST)) Good memory, it's right where you mention. The oil is all out, came over the top. I still haven't tracked any down today. I was hoping there would be a brand or good lead on medium machine oil. ------- Re: New South Bend Posted by: "n8as1x~xxaol.com" Date: Tue Nov 6, 2007 12:20 am ((PST)) tractor supplyco. has 30 wt non deterg & 10 wt non deterg here in KY & dollar general had 30 wt non deterg for dollar /qt last year.....i use 10 wt in atlas shaper & mix up 20 wt for crftsmn 12x36 ....i run 30wt nondeterg in solid bearing mills & lathes... best wishes docn8as ------ NOTE TO FILE: There is a great deal more information on lubricants and translations of obscure product numbers in the Lubricants General file. ------- 16" Gould& Eberhardt Shaper Posted by: "cabro32" 32chiselx~xxcomcast.net Date: Wed Jan 30, 2008 10:01 pm ((PST)) Hi: New member, first post. Does anyone know where I can get a operators, parts and service manual for a 16" Plain Tool Room Gould & Eberhardt Shaper? I have posted pictures in photo section under Cabro32 Shop. Thanks, Joe ------- Re: 16" Gould& Eberhardt Shaper Posted by: "Michael Edwards" memoto710x~xxyahoo.com Date: Wed Jan 30, 2008 11:43 pm ((PST)) Joe, congrats on your shaper. Here is a link to a army manual for the Mitts & Merril shaper. M&M bought out G&E, they are the same. http://www.tpub.com/content/operatormanuals/TM-9-3418-204-14-P/ Mike ------- [Metal_Shapers] Re: What's the difference between an Elliott 14M and an Elliott 14S? Posted by: "kulyk1961" ckulykx~xxshaw.ca Date: Tue Mar 18, 2008 11:35 pm ((PDT)) "mikeschetterer" wrote: > There's a 14S FS near me, but sans vice, and doesn't look to have the > full front support assembly. What differentiates the "S" from the "M"? > Regards. Mike I had a 14s and now have a 14m. The differences are: 14s 14m 2hp 3hp 8" vise 10" vise 4 speed 6 speed no clutch clutch fixed table table rotates in one plane gear box only gear box and clutch accessible accessible from from front of machine. rear of machine table support single table support much more massive round bar conventional shaper support style no guard on rear of ram guard on rear of ram. both machines share most of the same castings. I hope this helps, both of these machines are common in Canada. High school machines I guess. ------- Re: Vise Question [Metal_Shapers] Posted by: "David Hayes" hayesmfgx~xxconsolidated.net Date: Tue May 6, 2008 8:46 am ((PDT)) p1800s1969 Tuesday, May 06, 2008 wrote: >> Another Shape-Rite owner here. Mine is in pretty good shape other than paint and a missing vise. It originally came out of a production shop and had a dedicated fixture bolted down to the table. Great for whatever they were making but does not help me a lot. I have looked around a little and have not had any luck finding one and the only new ones are 8" imports that are way too big for my little shaper. I do have a couple of extra eastern copies of a 6" Kurt Versatile Lock CNC vise and was thinking about using one of them. There is enough meat in the middle of the vise to put a mounting lug to mate it to the table, but I am a little concerned with the 3.5" base height of the vise. Anyone here have a good source for castings or plans or know of a good alternative? << I had the same problem with my 7B Atlas shaper. I bought the Palmgren low profile machine vice from J&L Industrial supply Model 18421 Order # VPA-18421H for $156.05. http://catalogs.shoplocal.com/jlindustrial/index.aspx?circu larid=11555&itemcount=0&loggedin=false&newbanner=true&jlpa ss=1034&storeid=1038424&pagenumber=1038&fsid=1038 The bolts on the vice are 5" apart which did not fit the Atlas 4-1/2" spaced tee slots, so I built a 5/8" thick sub plate to accommodate. It works fine. Probably not as good as an angle lock vise, but good enough to get the job done. I also had height constraints and this was the shortest vice I could find. Without the swivel base (which does not come with the vise, even though the photo shows it) it is only 2-3/8" tall. Hope this helps. David ------- Re: Digest Number 2206 [Re: Vise Question] Posted by: "Pasek, Dennis Civ USAF AFMC 520 SMXS/MXDE" dennis.pasekx~xxhill.af.mil Date: Tue May 6, 2008 9:00 am ((PDT)) Hi Mike: We have a thread going on PM, In case you haven't seen it yet: http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/showthread.php?t=152029 where we are accumulating Shape-Rite info. You are welcome to join in. (I don't recognize your email and alias.) We have lots of photos posted inline that are easy to view. One of the guys has posted detailed photos of the vise with dimensions and I was considering the possibility of making a close replica from Durabar for my machine. I am not trying to hijack this forum, just passing along the info. Regards, Dennis ------- Re: Vise Question Posted by: "Mike Delany" mikex~xxp1800s.com Date: Thu May 8, 2008 12:06 am ((PDT)) I looked at the Palmgren that David used and it looked like a nice vise but I went ahead and tried the spare 6" Kurt PT Series clone (CNC-style vise) that I had. I bored a 5/8th" hole in the base (matched the center pivot hole on my table) and ground the head down on a grade 8 5/8th bolt to .24" high for clearance. Mounted and tried it and it works beautifully. Between the big bolt and the 75 pounds of vise, nothing is moving. I remember running an older shaper years ago and the thing that I hated about it was that the vise jaws always lifted and this seems to get around that problem. I will also be able to use old sacrificial jaws if needed (the CNC seems to generate more than I like to pay for). The downside is that I have lost a little Z clearance, but it seems to be a tradeoff that is worthwhile. Mike ------- Re: Location of serial number on Rhodes Shaper [Metal_Shapers] Posted by: "RICK MONTAGUE" rammercx~xxwebtv.net Date: Mon Nov 3, 2008 8:02 am ((PST)) weis_mark on November 1, 2008 wrote: > Just picked up a Rhodes shaper and would like to know where on the machine should I look for the serial number. I have read most of the info I have found on the web on these machines. Will try to post pictures after I get it off of the truck and in the workshop(garage) Thanks Mark < Mark: The serial numbers are located on the right hand side of the machine right below the ram in between the 2nd and third screws used to adjust the gib strip. Michael Moore put together a lot of info on Rhodes shapers. Maybe someone will post a link. I keep forgetting to save it and can't find it when I need to. Enjoy the new toy, great little machines. Rick ------- Rhodes serial Number location [Metal_Shapers] Posted by: "weis_mark" maweisx~xxsbcglobal.net Date: Tue Nov 4, 2008 12:21 am ((PST)) Thanks everyone for the location of the serial number. After taking a razor blade and scraping paint off between the gib bolts, I found the number. The machine has the No 1772 stamped on it. After resizing the pictures I will try to post them. Mark Weis ------- Adept Shaper Vice &c [Metal_Shapers] Posted by: "furkaoberalp" a.websterx~xxsympatico.ca Date: Sun Mar 22, 2009 11:46 pm ((PDT)) Good evening everyone, Here is some trivia for Adept enthusiasts. I am the fllow who wrote the .pdf Adept lathe analysis that Tony Griffiths kindly linked in his Adept pages. In updating that document I have found a few Adept shaper nuggets. 1930 - Adept ordinary pattern lathe introduced soon after split of the Heeley firm. 1932 - Adept No. 1 shaper introduced. 1933 - Super Adept lathe introduced. 1934 - No. 2 introduced. 1941-1946 - Adept production ceased. 1953 - Adept motorised shaper introduced. 1961 - approx - Fred Portass the maker is out of business. Two excellent small vices were marketed for the Adept shaper. I have a plain one for my No. 1 shaper. The other was a rotating version. The small plain Adept vice is much superior to the little classic pattern Myford vice. It is a perfect fit on the Myford universal swivelling milling slide. In fact these vices were often purchased with lathe work in mind. Adept products were made in the US under licence by the cunningly named Adept Tool Company, and in Australia by Fred Hercus. I will shortly be receiving a detailed Adept Tool Co. catalogue and will be in a position to determine whether the shaper was also made in the US...I do know that the Ordinary Adept lathe was, along with a miniature South Bend style vertical slide. BTW - Some months ago I mentioned an ancient ME article with a design for fitting an auto feed to an Adept shaper, without altering the shaper in any way. I can scan it if anyone is really interested. Andrew Webster Ottawa, Canada ------- Re: Drawings for a Lewis shaper vise [Metal_Shapers] Posted by: "Irby Jones" irbyratx~xxcox.net Date: Wed Apr 1, 2009 2:53 pm ((PDT)) I have scans of the Lewis drawings, and I'll find the ones for the shaper vise and put them on the new Lewis group's (LewisMachineTool) Photos section. I'll post a link back here. The scans are huge, about 65 megs each, but I can resize them any size you would like. I've tried 1000 x 750 and they are quite readable and only 100KB each, so that's what I'll post there. BTW, as far as I know all of Art's files and such are still on his old group. I copied some over to the new group I started, but not many. Be sure you look at the old group (Lewis_Machine_Tool) when you search for something. Irby ------- Re: Drawings for a Lewis shaper vise Posted by: "Irby Jones" irbyratx~xxcox.net Date: Thu Apr 2, 2009 4:34 am ((PDT)) I couldn't find a scan of the shaper vise, just a small mill vise. I don't have scans of all the Lewis drawings. Sorry! Irby ------- Re: Drawings for a Lewis shaper vise Posted by: "Mike Unger" DatsunDocx~xxaol.com Date: Wed Apr 1, 2009 3:41 pm ((PDT)) If you need any new measurements or pictures let me know. I have one on my Lewis shaper which can be seen here on YouTube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bqqArCxkMtc Mike ------- Re: Drawings for a Lewis shaper vise Posted by: "Irby Jones" irbyratx~xxcox.net Date: Thu Apr 2, 2009 1:47 pm ((PDT)) "johann_ohnesorg" wrote:> Hy Irby, > can you please up the milling vise drawings anyhow? As far as I >understood Art wrote that the shaper vise is an upscaled milling vise. Johann: It turns out to be a drill vise, not a mill vise. I uploaded the 2 pages of the drawings anyway to the Photos section of the LewisMachineTool group, under the "Lewis Drawings" album. I may get some more Lewis drawings to scan and hopefully they will include the vises. Irby ------- "New" shaper [Metal_Shapers] Posted by: "Don Kinzer" dkinzerx~xxeasystreet.net Date: Sat May 2, 2009 2:27 pm ((PDT)) Kirk Hillman wrote: > Has anyone come across a proper manual for the SB 7" shaper? I have PDFs of manuals for several shapers on my site (link below) including a U.S. Army manual for the SB7. http://www.kinzers.com/don/MachineTools/techman or http://tinyurl.com/c9axny Don Kinzer ------- First Shaper - Need Help! [Metal_Shapers] Posted by: "richka50" richkax~xxcomcast.net Date: Fri May 8, 2009 12:16 pm ((PDT)) I just bought an 8" Logan. It seems complete (it's got the vise, guards, and handle). The machine looks overall good, but it was repainted with a brush sometime in the past, and the bottom of the base is rusty. Now for the questions: How do I separate the shaper form the base? Just the 3 bolts? Any other pitfalls with disassembly? ------- Re: First Shaper - Need Help! Posted by: "mikejanfx~xxjuno.com" mikejanfx~xxjuno.com Date: Fri May 8, 2009 1:16 pm ((PDT)) Before you take the Logan 8 off its base, take the base side cover off, find the two adjusting screws on the outside back of the cabinet, loosen the lock nuts and turn both screws out. This will allow the motor mount to swing up and down. You can then take the belts off the variable speed drive. Taking the belt cover off the side of the shaper will also help in getting the top belt off. You have two belts to contend with but only the top one needs to come off. Look under our shaper files under Logan 8 mods for other ideas to make your shaper safer and work better. Mike in Iowa ------- Logan T-Bolt Size [Metal_Shapers] Posted by: "gjrepesh" gjrepeshx~xxyahoo.com Date: Sun May 17, 2009 12:52 am ((PDT)) I need to make the following for my shaper: 538-A-B-C "T" Headed Bolts. Are they 5/16 or 3/8? Thanks, Gary ------- Re: Logan T-Bolt Size Posted by: "Irby Jones" irbyratx~xxcox.net Date: Sun May 17, 2009 9:07 am ((PDT)) I don't have a parts catalog in front of me but if these are the table T-bolts, the ones on my 8" Logan are 3/8". Irby ------- new video of my Gingery Metal Shaper [Metal_Shapers] Posted by: "Rick Sparber" rgsparberx~xxaol.com Date: Mon Sep 7, 2009 12:33 pm ((PDT)) I finally got around to doing one last video of my shaper: http://tinyurl.com/ndugwl Rick Sparber http://rick.sparber.org ------- Building a Shaper [Metal_Shapers] Posted by: "f350ca" f350cax~xxyahoo.ca Date: Fri Dec 11, 2009 2:28 pm ((PST)) Hi: I'm new to your group. Have been looking for a small shaper for some years and haven't found one yet that was anywhere close to me. I'm considering building one from weldaments. I know I'm crazy but have taken on similar projects in the past and hey it's winter anyway. Think something with a 6 - 7 inch stroke is what I need. Would be used mostly for internal keys and splines as well as dovetails (cheaper than dovetail cutters for the mill). Pretty sure it would find lots of uses once it was in the shop. Haven't run one since high school shop which was a little while ago. By the way that one is long gone. Any suggestions on size, features, whether you think steel won't be stiff enough would be appreciated. Thanks in advance Greg ------- Re: Building a Shaper Posted by: "Dave" tiynmanx~xxyahoo.com Date: Fri Dec 11, 2009 2:43 pm ((PST)) If you're diligent in your search, they can be found for cheap in the MidWest and on the East coast. I recently found one in the Midwest and had it shipped to me on the West Coast. While it was more hassle than finding one local, even with a hefty shipping tab, it was still cheaper than what the machines that are already out West go for. In general, not many machine tools on the West coast relative to back East so they tend to fetch a pretty fair price out here. In any case, just food for thought on another option. Building one would certainly be an experience. Personally, I'm just more interested in building various junkets than building the tools, themselves. Best, Dave ------- Re: Building a Shaper Posted by: "Rexarino" rexarinox~xxgmail.com Date: Fri Dec 11, 2009 3:03 pm ((PST)) I suggest you join the gingery machine group on yahoo, for ample discussion on homebuilt shapers. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gingery_machines/ ------- Re: Building a Shaper Posted by: "Rick Sparber" rgsparberx~xxaol.com Date: Fri Dec 11, 2009 4:28 pm ((PST)) Greg, I recently cast a Gingery Shaper and know that at least one person had built one up from plate. Rick ------- Building a Shaper Posted by: "Jim S." mrjschmidtx~xxhotmail.com Date: Sat Dec 12, 2009 8:14 am ((PST)) I agree with the others that the Gingery shaper is doable in plate. I have one made of bolted up plate about 90% complete in my basement. The only part welded is the table because I needed a project for welding class. I shelved it when I got a great deal on an Atlas shaper for my shop. I'm working my way back through several such abandoned projects now, and it's on the list. When you are ready to start, ask around here and at the Gingery machines group for suggestions on improving the design. It will take some time and materials, but if you weld you will save a small fortune on bolts compared to mine! Good luck. Jim (Just a guy who likes to build stuff) ------- Re: Building a Shaper Posted by: "f350ca" f350cax~xxyahoo.ca Date: Sat Dec 12, 2009 11:38 am ((PST)) I'm in the drawing/design stage. Hope to get fabricating in the next couple of weeks. One concern is wear, on the ram. Think cast sliding on cast is probably better than steel on steel; any thoughts? While surfing last night found a brochure for a delta 7 in. It lists maximum distance of 5 1/4 from ram to table. That seems too small, my rotary table is about 4 inches tall. Greg ------- Re: Building a Shaper Posted by: "Alan R. Lapp" alanlappx~xxlevelfive.com Date: Sat Dec 12, 2009 2:53 pm ((PST)) Yes, you can add screw-on slideways out of aluminum bronze. ------- Re: Shaper Vise Question [Metal_Shapers] Posted by: "in2steam" in2steamx~xxwi.rr.com Date: Tue Apr 27, 2010 7:46 am ((PDT)) "Manuel" wrote: > Being new to shapers, I have to ask a dumb question. What is the difference between a shaper vise and a milling machine vise? Thanks Manny < Manny: The shaper vise is typically lower profile so that you have more room to use the shaper since they don't often have as much room as a mill would between the table and the cutter. Typically the jaws are wider than tall, and most of them have a base which rotates built in. On some (about half the ones I have seen) the outside non movable jaw is typically thinner then a milling vise; it's not designed to hold as much weight whereas the movable jaw is typically very stout designed to take a beating from the machine. Most of your modern day milling vises are designed for the vertical mill so they tend to be higher off the table to allow clearance for things to hang down. Some older horizontal mills also used vises similar to a shaper. Many shaper vises tended to become handy shop tools(like at drill presses) long after the shaper itself was used and tend to become separated from the shaper over the course of its life. My atlas 7b vise had a half dozen holes in it when I purchased it. Regards, Chris ------- Re: Shaper Vise Question Posted by: "n8as1x~xxaol.com" docn8as Date: Tue Apr 27, 2010 8:47 pm ((PDT)) one other thing.....every shaper vise i have seen either had 4 holes for boltdown, or was designed for 4 clamps to do same..(strong horizontal forces that a mill vise does not experience) best wishes docn8as ------- Re: Shaper Vise Question Posted by: "n8as1x~xxaol.com" docn8as Date: Wed Apr 28, 2010 10:20 pm ((PDT)) al_messer wrote: > docn8as---Have you ever seen a SouthBend 7? just one huge bolt in the center is all it's got. I wish it WAS like the Atlas 7 but it ain't. Al < no, AL, i havent seen the southbend ....my 1901-03 steptoe has a single hole in center of the table ..the original vise rotates on this hole & is clamped to the table at four ends.....the elimination of the xtra rotary base allows more vertical room ....not uncommon a hundred or so years ago .... when i got my precivil war gould shaper, the flat stock shopmade 6in vise was clamped to the table by a single bolt & nut thru center of the table .....it was really sorry ...vise rotated .....i looked around & found three completely plugged tapped holes on the solid table ...equally spaced.....i cleaned them out, made some clamps & used the center hole for a pivot .....thats the way a previous operator had intended the vise to function & it works well ....i am surprised that south bend wud think that a single bolt in the middle wud be sufficient to anchor the vise against rotation tnx for the heads up best wishes docn8as ------- Re: Shaper Vise Question Posted by: "Andy FitzGibbon" wade8ax~xxverizon.net Date: Thu Apr 29, 2010 6:16 am ((PDT)) AMMCo shapers also have a single bolt in the center. They do have a key that can be inserted to keep the vise at 0 degrees (and on older ones, 90 degrees as well). As they are a pretty small shaper, I've never had one slip. Andy ------- [Article on how to make a manually powered metal shaper.] Re: Shaper was RE: [atlas_craftsman] Re: 109 gears Posted by: "S or J" jstudiox~xxtbaytel.net Date: Fri Aug 20, 2010 10:07 am ((PDT)) At 05:56 PM 8/19/2010, Larry Edinger wrote: >> Where's the plans? "David Beierl" dbeierlx~xxattglobal.net wrote: > Aw rats. sorry. Try this: http://countryplans.com/vintage_farm//machineshop/Shaper.pdf There's more stuff one level up. Yours, David < Hi David Looked at your referenced site and found that I have a much clearer scan in pdf format. About 1 MB. Have posted it to a personal address not on my main site: http://my.tbaytel.net/jstudio/lathe/3inshaper1.pdf I also have another smaller scan of the magazine where the pages are out of order; it gives a bit of "color" as to what the original article looked like. (But it is not as clear as the one above.) http://my.tbaytel.net/jstudio/lathe/3inshaper.pdf Hope these are helpful. Steve -- in Thunder Bay, Ontario, Canada Machining and Metalworking at Home http://www.janellestudio.com/metal/ ---- Re: Shaper was RE: [atlas_craftsman] Re: 109 gears Posted by: "David Beierl" dbeierlx~xxattglobal.net dgbeierl Date: Sun Aug 22, 2010 10:16 pm ((PDT)) At 01:07 PM 8/20/2010, S or J wrote: >Looked at your referenced site and found that I have a much clearer >scan in pdf format. About 1 MB. Have posted it to a personal address >not on my main site: Thanks very much! Yrs, d ------- Värnamo Shaper Manual [Metal_Shapers] Posted by: "lsaxtrup" lauritz.j.saxtrupx~xxgmail.com Date: Mon Oct 4, 2010 11:04 am ((PDT)) Hello! Would there be any interest in a scan of a partial Värnamo Shaper manual? It's written in Swedish but I guess a few of the drawings and oiling instructions could interest a few people. Best Regards, Lauritz J. Saxtrup ------- Värnamo Ev Shaper Manual (PDF) [Metal_Shapers] Posted by: "lsaxtrup" lauritz.j.saxtrupx~xxgmail.com Date: Sun Oct 10, 2010 7:51 am ((PDT)) Sorry for not doing this sooner, only took 1½ hours. I think it's too much text to translate all together but if anyone would like me to translate specific parts I'll gladly do it. Here is the file address: http://www.saxtruparms.com/Varnamo_Ev_Shaper_Manual.pdf It's about 3.25Mb made from 12.5Mb of tiff files scanned at 300 DPI. Since I'm providing the group with some good new stuff I thought that I could make a request. I've seen a fair amount of shaper videos on YouTube but none really show anything more exciting than regular planing of a small piece of metal or perhaps some key-way slotting. I would greatly enjoy seeing videos of more advanced shaping, like T slots or parts with curves or several angles. Lauritz J. Saxtrup NOTE TO FILE: This pdf file has also been uploaded to the Metal_Shapers group's files section. ------- Re: Värnamo Ev Shaper Manual (PDF) Posted by: "lou" ldakosx~xxbigpond.net.au Date: Sun Oct 10, 2010 2:43 pm ((PDT)) I have looked at this shaper manual and the machine looks very much the same as my Sacia, for which I purchased a manual (photocopy) from a site here in Australia. Lou ------- Lubrication - Logan 8 [Metal_Shapers] Posted by: "richka50" richkax~xxcomcast.net Date: Fri Dec 3, 2010 8:43 am ((PST)) I bought a Logan 8 last year, and immediately disassembled, stripped and re-painted the whole thing. (long pause) Over Thanksgiving I reassembled it, and with the exception of adding an electrical contactor, it is complete and functioning. My question is: which oil(s) and grease for the various lubrication points? ------- Re: Lubrication - Logan 8 Posted by: "Jon" mc_n_gx~xxyahoo.com Date: Fri Dec 3, 2010 1:43 pm ((PST)) I cannot speak about what is proper but I use the same lubricants I use on my South Bend lathe. I try to use either B or C way oil (ISO 32 or ISO 68 oil) on the dovetail ways and box slide. I a heavy gear oil (85w-140w) on the chain and spindle in the back of the machine. I only use it because I have it around and it sticks very well instead of flinging everywhere. I use a teflon based gease for areas which need grease. This may not be correct but it gets more lubrication than it has had in years. ------- Re: shaper vise [Metal_Shapers] Posted by: "Jim S." mrjschmidtx~xxhotmail.com Date: Mon Jun 20, 2011 6:56 am ((PDT)) Just to inform the group, can one of the experts here explain what distinguishes a shaper vise from a mill vise? There must be some difference other than "this one came with the shaper". Jim (Just a guy who likes to build stuff) ------- Re: shaper vise Posted by: "Joe Henderson" jdhender_1999x~xxyahoo.com Date: Mon Jun 20, 2011 8:11 am ((PDT)) Shaper vises are lower and wider than mill vises. All but the small Ammco and South Bend shaper vises have swivel bases that are bolted to the table on all four corners. They are machine specific in that they must fit the t-slot width. Most mill vises are used without the swivel base. Shapers normally are used with the base. Shaper operations have largely been replaced by turret mills. Shapers still use the cheapest of all tooling and are capable of removing more metal than mills cheaper. You can get by with a vise bolted to a sub plate that is drilled and tapped on a bolt circle to match the vise. The sub plate will be bolted to the table on all four corners and the vise will swivel around and bolt to the corresponding holes at different positions. It will not allow the fine settings a swivel base will, but it will allow machining at the angles the base is drilled and tapped for. jh ------- NOTE TO FILE: Lamp for an AMMCO metal shaper or other workshop machine. I suspect many AMMCO metal shaper owners do not have the original lamp. Certainly mine was missing. Now if your intent is to light the work perfectly, and not merely duplicate the original lamp, then there are many alternatives. I recently acquired a Delta Magnetic Base Lamp Model 25-869 with 14" flexible neck and 8 foot cord. It nicely clamps to the left side of the shaper and handles the lighting task well. The same lamp also clamps securely to the side of my drill press and I can use it on several other machines too. Makes it a real bargain. I should note that I checked the availability of this lamp with a web search today (January 2012) and it is still being sold. One site (Amazon) had a number of customer reviews, pro and con. The pro comments matched my experience that this task light has a very strong magnet. Some users reported that the magnetic grip less than met their expectations. One fellow recommended peeling off the shiny foil covering the base (presumably there so as not to scratch a painted surface) to increase the magnet's grip. Mine still has the foil and has a bulldog grip. Anyway, I suspect you will find a good use somewhere in your workshop. Usual disclaimer, just a happy customer. ------- Re: Need weight of 16" Gould & Eberhardt shaper [Metal_Shapers] Posted by: "jhe.1973" jhe.1973x~xxyahoo.com Date: Sun Jan 22, 2012 8:42 pm ((PST)) Hi Everyone, Sorry for the very late reply. I was under a time constraint when I posted here and forgot that I asked for help once I got back with the shaper. I have a floor scale & I weighed the machine as I was setting in place. 4442 pounds w/vise in case anyone finds this useful. Thanks for all your attention & help. Sincerely, Jim ------- New Topic [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: "Denny Dorum" ddorumx~xxcharleswright.org Date: Fri Feb 17, 2012 10:05 am ((PST)) Good morning All. I have watching these posts for a year or so. A lot of good information is posted here and I have learned a lot. I purchased a Atlas 12" and am outfitting my garage for when I retire. The next item I am looking at is either a vertical mill or a shaper. I am a novice when it comes to machining but am learning. It seems to me that there have been posts both for and against shapers. Those against seem to think that they are obsolete. Thoughts? Thanks Denny ------- Re: New Topic Posted by: "jmartin957x~xxaol.com" Date: Fri Feb 17, 2012 10:33 am ((PST)) Obsolete? In a manufacturing environment, close to it. Just about everything that can be done by a shaper can be done by other machines. Many of which load and unload the parts automatically and may be computer controlled. Machines that can run carbide tooling at high speeds. Carbide doesn't fare too well with the intermittent cutting action of a shaper. In a small shop or hobbyist environment, far from it. Some jobs, such as cutting internal keyways or splines, are difficult to do otherwise without single purpose broaches. Where the shaper really shines is in not having to purchase special tooling. Need to cut a T slot or a dovetail? If you only have a mill, you'll have to buy a cutter specially sized for just that job. With a shaper, you may be able to use one of your existing cutters. At worst, you'll grind one by hand from a HSS blank. With a shaper, you can follow a curve by hand that you can't easily do with any other tool. It can give a surface that is tough to match with a mill. And as Ron Popeil tells us, you can "Set it and forget it" for many jobs. Not for too long, though. And, of course, since many people do think of them as obsolete, shapers can be had much cheaper than mills of comparable size and quality. Except, perhaps, for horizontal mills, which many of those same people mistakenly regard as also obsolete. John Martin ------- Re: New Topic Posted by: "mckuhen.steve" mckuhen.stevex~xxyahoo.com Date: Fri Feb 17, 2012 10:51 am ((PST)) This is 2012. A 1950 Atlas lathe is obsolete. Shapers are wonderful machines. I enjoy the sound and movement of my shapers. I am not in a hurry. I do metal working for self satisfaction and improvement. I find that I will choose to do an operation on the shaper first even though it could be done faster on the mill. If I had the resources I would purchase every shaper that I could. If you buy one never sell it. I am an old man. Shortly I will be obsolete. ------- Re: New Topic Posted by: "gene" gjburdax~xxyahoo.com Date: Fri Feb 17, 2012 10:59 am ((PST)) Denny: Through the years I have aquired several machine tools with the same idea you have in mind. One of the items was a Shape-Rite 8" shaper. It was a bit of a basket case when received, but I was able to get it back to better than new shape. I would suggest that these machines have a range of functions and capabilities that can be hard to beat for the price of the machine itself, and the tooling required to complete a job. By that I refer to using plain tool steel to make tooling that on another types of machines would require a large investment in special cutters. Making complex parts with splines, internal and external key ways, cutting gears etc. can be done with inexpensive tool steel. Making dovetails are another example. These machines were used for a long time prior to the advent of vertical mills, etc. Now there are some limitations on the size and range of operation based on the capacity of the individual machine, but I for one am sold on their viability in the shop. I do have a vertical mill, horizontal mill, lathes, surface grinder etc. but still find the shaper very useful. ------- Re: New Topic Posted by: "Carvel Webb" carvelwx~xxabsamail.co.za Date: Fri Feb 17, 2012 12:41 pm ((PST)) We have a Rhodes and an Atlas shaper in the family, and certainly have no intention of disposing of them - nuff said. I'm sure you have probably looked at it, but in case not, here is the link to the Atlas shaper page on the lathes.uk site which shows a number of possible applications. http://www.lathes.co.uk/atlasshaper/index.html Have fun, Carvel ------- Re: New Topic Posted by: "Guenther Paul" paulguenterx~xxatt.net Date: Fri Feb 17, 2012 1:11 pm ((PST)) I don't think shapers are obsolete. It all depends on the individual how he wants to machine his work. Yes a shaper takes a little longer but they are very useful. GP ------- Re: New Topic Posted by: "Rexarino" rexarinox~xxgmail.com Date: Fri Feb 17, 2012 2:31 pm ((PST)) Denny, in case you find one of those old, greasy, dusty, nasty, ugly obsolete shapers waiting to be hauled away, just give me a jingle and we'll get it right out of your way, or anyone else's way, for that matter. No charge to you; my friends and I are notorious good folks eagerly awaiting a chance to perform a public service... Why, my friend Rich was contemplating driving to Florida (from Oregon) just so he could help out a shaper, er, person, in Miami - he's just that dedicated a do-gooder! {Tongue very firmly in cheek, grinning and hoping you see my true meaning} Rex, who starts his shaper and brings all shop work to a stop while 4 guys stand around and watch the magic! ------- Re: New Topic Posted by: "jerdalx~xxsbcglobal.net" Date: Fri Feb 17, 2012 5:42 pm ((PST)) Of course shapers are obsolete. Your manual lathe has been obsolete for 40 years as a class of machine... Your house is full of obsolete things, and you wrote your question on an obsolete computer (I know that because you actually HAVE it...... by the time they are really SOLD, they are already technically obsolete). I have two shapers, and several other manual machines. They are all obsolete, but for some reason I don't feel like scrapping them yet... Next question? JT ------- Re: New Topic Posted by: "Charlie Gallo" Charliex~xxTheGallos.com Date: Fri Feb 17, 2012 6:13 pm ((PST)) Well, unless you have a real high end toolroom lathe, and even there, MOST today are "learning" CNC lathes. Shapers are "interesting" machines, but they mostly collect dust. BIG ones usually 'sell' for their value as scrap metal MINUS the cost of removing the shaper. Small 'hobby' sized shapers do sell. That said, there are some jobs that just work real well on a shaper (show me a machine tool that can cut an internal keyway) - that said, if you have the press, and are going to do more than one, just get a broach There ARE exceptions to the rule. Modern Machine Shop had a case study on a shop a year or two back, and their "secret" tool was a HUGE planer (a tool that, in general is even MORE obsolete than a shaper). They were planing down torch cut blade blanks that were like 30 ft long, 3-4 inches thick, and HARD due to the size of the blank having quenching effects. The article was really about how one carbide company showed them a grade of carbide that allowed an insert to work multiple hours, vs 15-20 minutes for the BEST previous solution they had (HSS and Stellite were only lasting 1-2 strokes). It just shows, no tool is totally obsolete, BUT some have become extreme niche tools. If I had the space (I don't), I'd LOVE a small shaper. 73 de KG2V - Charles Gallo Quality Custom Machine-shop work for the radio amateur (sm) ------- Re: New Topic Posted by: "jerdalx~xxsbcglobal.net" Date: Fri Feb 17, 2012 6:25 pm ((PST)) > There ARE exceptions to the rule. Modern Machine Shop had a case study > on a shop a year or two back, and their "secret" tool was a HUGE planer > (a tool that, in general is even MORE obsolete than a shaper). How so? There are many things a planer does that really no other machine can... And a "planer type mill" is only a planer with a mill head on it, at its most basic level.... so they are equivalent. JT ------- Re: New Topic Posted by: "Doc" n8as1x~xxaol.com docn8as Date: Fri Feb 17, 2012 6:37 pm ((PST)) shaper, as far as industry is concerned is obsolete,,, not so for the HSM ....i just last week cut some 55 deg dovetails for a Barnes lathe steady rest ....sure, you can cut dovetails on a mill, maybe faster..AFTER you buy the special grind 55 deg cutter for circa $200 ......45 & 60 are available ..all else is 'special'...no problem for industry cause they will run thousands off & are makin MONEY on their effort....we are NOT. got careless w/ an endmill & chipped it, or fed too fast & snapped it? ....well it's only $5-$10 ..depending on US or china ...chip the shaper bit, 20 sec at the grindstone fixes it, i have not yet BROKEN one in two ....try cutting an internal keyway on a gear in the mill !!! or internal splines????....no problem in industry, just buy a $100 broach & a 5 thou key seating machine ......want a finish that is adequate w/out grinding /polishing, unlike a mill? .....learn how to use a sheargrind bit on the shaper ....you get a reflective surface on steel. enuf ??!!!!!! best wishes docn8as oh yeah, i have 5 functioning shapers, but, i like to look at them & pet them occasionally ...just never had the tools i wanted as a kid growing up before WW2. ------- NOTE TO FILE: You will find more discussion of Doc's shear grind bits, useful on shapers or lathes, in the files here called: "Metal Shaper Bits and Toolholders" in the "Metal Shapers" section; and "Cutters, Bits, and Arbors" in the "General Metalworking..." section. Just search those files for the word "shear" and find quite a few helpful messages over the years. ------- Re: Shapers [atlas_craftsman] [was Re: New Topic] Posted by: "jerdalx~xxsbcglobal.net" Date: Sat Feb 18, 2012 6:35 am ((PST)) February 18, 2012 mckuhen.steve wrote: >I read all the posts about shapers being obsolete. You all mention what >the shapers can and can not do. I seem to be the only one that enjoys >operating my machines besides Doc who pets his. I do not understand. Shapers are surely obsolete. They do, however, work nicely, do things that other machines are not as good at, and are, as you point out, relaxing. A shaper is a "lathe for flat stuff". Show me another machine of similar size that can flatten the surface of a block of metal as fast, or cut a dovetail as fast. It won't be a mill, to do that at similar speed, you need a much bigger mill, you may need to babysit every milling pass. And you need more expensive tooling. A shaper can do about everything a mill can, everything from gear cutting to keyways, to profile cutting, and even, if you want to take the time, cutting a deep recess in a block. I don't recall the amount of "complaining" about them that you seem to mention. I used a shaper as my only "mill" for years, and got a lot done with it that others might say was not possible. I have another now, and the only reason I am not using them is that I have a mill, and the shapers are both "on the list" for a re-build, including re-scraping for alignment. JT ------- Re: Shapers Posted by: "inspiro_creo" david.deboizex~xxverizon.net Date: Sat Feb 18, 2012 11:06 am ((PST)) Doc may pet his shaper, however I talk to my lathe. Does that count for anything? David ------- Re: Shapers Posted by: "Jon Elson" elsonx~xxpico-systems.com Date: Sat Feb 18, 2012 4:40 pm ((PST)) Guenther Paul wrote: > David > Watch out when your lathe talks back to you I had that happen a couple times. It was not only loud enough for the family to hear it, I think the neighbors could have heard it too! Definitely taking too big a cut with too wide a cutter. Jon ------- Re: Shapers Posted by: "William Abernathy" williamx~xxinch.com Date: Sat Feb 18, 2012 8:44 pm ((PST)) The truism about shapers is that you can make anything with a shaper, except money. I think this sums up questions of their obsolescence. If your objective is to crank out many parts quickly, you use a mill (or possibly several in a row), tool them up appropriately, and run them at the speed it takes to destroy your cutters, minus one RPM. If you can program a robot to do this for you, all the better. In that race, a shaper is not even in the running and hasn't been for years. This said, I do not run a production shop, frequently work one-off parts, and don't want to buy a new mill cutter every time I want to cut a different profile. I look forward to continuing to tool up my shaper and learning how to make it do tricks at its own pace. It certainly flattens things better than my mill-drill ever will. W ------- Re: Shapers Posted by: "Doc" n8as1x~xxaol.com docn8as Date: Sat Feb 18, 2012 10:19 pm ((PST)) This is redundant, but when i bought my 16 in smith mills HD at auction from a deceased owners tool & die shop, there were 4 bridgeport J heads there......an ex employee told me that they used the shaper for "hogging off" before going to the mills, because it was faster .....i never ran a bridgeport J head, but the 1/2 inch doc slabbing cuts on 1018 i have taken w/ the shaper, sure beats my "plumb wore out" M head .... it was also the very NEXT machine tool developed after maudesly's screw cutting lathe, & near ONE HUNDRED FIFTY YEARS before B&S showed their first vertical mill in france ...& 50 years after that, the horizontal mill was still the most ubiquitous ... a large cinti vertical w/ carbide & as "w" stated, run just under destruction, wud leave any shaper in the dust .... most things are relative .... many of the milling operations done today by newer trained men were formerly done on faceplate/lathe, & they certainly may still be .... all that said, one will still want to have some sort of mill in the shop. best wishes docn8as ------- Re: HD Movie of My Atlas 7B Shaper [Metal_Shapers] Posted by: "JR Williams" jrwillmsx~xxhal-pc.org Date: Tue Apr 10, 2012 2:09 pm ((PDT)) I have my Logan shaper mounted on casters with a jack screw at each caster. It works fine. The jack screw goes into a depression in a cast iron pad with a rubber pad. You can find a photo with a short article. Go to the Home Metal Shop Club web page and do a search for "Shaper Improvements" by J. R. Williams. ------- parts drawings for Royal/viceroy shapers [Metal_Shapers] Posted by: "john" John.Burridgex~xxfsmail.net Date: Thu May 3, 2012 1:12 pm ((PDT)) I have been looking on the Denford website on the forum section about Tom Senior and came across some information and drawings of some of the parts for the Royal/Viceroy 10"(250mm) shaper Here is the link for other if they want these drawings to make some replacement parts correctly. http://www.denfordata.com/bb/viewforum.php?f=50 yours for now. John Burridge ------- Two more find a home [Metal_Shapers] Posted by: "blhctd" blhctdx~xxhotmail.com Date: Sun Jul 15, 2012 2:06 pm ((PDT)) Just when I had slimmed my group down to just one shaper, a local friend calls and said he had bought someones shop and had something I might be interested in. He had a 7" South Bend on its cabinet and a Rhodes convertible shaper and slotter. The SB is pretty nice. The Rhodes has both rams but missing the Slotter clapper and on and out table. It needs cleaning and painting but doesn't appear to be worn. Anyone have some leads on Rhodes parts? So I'm back to three machines, but at least it's not two 24" shapers. Now to find a small P&W or similar Slotter. I think I have the disease as well. I will get some pictures up soon. Brian ------- Cincinnati 24" [Metal_Shapers] Posted by: "Peter" pduselx~xxsprintmail.com Date: Mon Aug 6, 2012 2:46 pm ((PDT)) I'm going to take a look at a Cincinnati 24" this Saturday. The shaper is recently removed from service (last week, machine shop closed). Price seems pretty reasonable, and includes vice and tooling. Other than looking for rust, excess wear, worn gears, shaking the ram, shining a light around inside and looking for ??? does anybody have any ideas where I should look in particular on this monster? And to check my (in)sanity, any idea what a reasonable price would be? Pete ------- Re: Cincinnati 24" Posted by: "Doc" n8as1x~xxaol.com docn8as Date: Mon Aug 6, 2012 3:16 pm ((PDT)) IF 8000#, scrap price in so.ky. is $720 ...early shapers cud weigh MUCH less..later ones maybe a bit more .......( minus hauling & breaking up). vise asking prices are $150 -$250, power downfeed (working) & universal table on same mill is a real PLUS. add on a rollback wrecker cost to lay it on your pipe rollers & make life MUCH simpler ..keep a check line on TOP to prevent tipping when loading/ unloading. check mtr voltage / phase vs your service ...some mtrs are 440 only. check b/lash on x/feed & top slide for idea of wear/usage. check travel of table at extremes for indication of wear ...same thing on ram; it may, & table may, be tightened up in the usage range & lock up outside of their normal range, due to wear. run it in ALL speeds to check for gear/bearing wear in the gear box if a modern shaper ..(on ONE of my Shapers, one speed sounds like it is coming apart ...OTHERS ARE FINE). good luck doc ------- Re: Cincinnati 24" Posted by: "JR Williams" jrwillmsx~xxhal-pc.org Date: Mon Aug 6, 2012 4:26 pm ((PDT)) Check the condition of the oil in the sump. That will show how well the unit has been maintained. [To rectify] some looseness and slop in the system can usually be a matter of careful adjustment. ------- Re: Cincinnati 24" Posted by: "wa2oia" jflemin5x~xxrochester.rr.com Date: Tue Aug 7, 2012 12:38 pm ((PDT)) Reasonable price is what it is worth to you. Are you playing it for a hobby or a business? Are you planning to sell it? ------- Re: Cincinnati 24" Posted by: "blhctd" blhctdx~xxhotmail.com Date: Wed Aug 8, 2012 5:53 am ((PDT)) I recently sold my 24" standard universal table Cincinnati with vise and handles recently for $500. I took a little while to do it. Everyone was shy on truck and trailer capacity. It was a modern machine. The last model before they added the electric clutch. About 5500 lbs. ------- Re: Cincinnati 24" Posted by: "Peter" pduselx~xxsprintmail.com Date: Wed Aug 8, 2012 11:16 am ((PDT)) Thanks all for the thoughts! > hobby or a business? Are you planning to sell it ? I suppose I should have mentioned that in my original post! If it was business, it would be a simple ROI calculation. But of course, it's for hobby, so things get blurrier. I don't expect to sell it, unless something more interesting comes along. I suspect my daughter will sell it at auction, when that day comes. Current cast iron scrap around here is $0.13/pound. So if I drop it off the trailer, the broken pieces are still worth about $700. The tooling and vise might do better on eBay. The ask on this unit is a couple hundred more than scrap value, but includes loading, vise and tooling, so?? I own the truck and trailer, so my only transportation cost is a couple hundred miles worth of diesel. Sounds like, except for a "lucky" find below scrap value, so long as it's not worn out junk, it's at a reasonable open market price, and will provide my wife, a mechanical engineer, and I endless hours of hypnotically watching the ram go back and forth, for an overall cost of not much. Now, if somebody has something that size they want to sell below scrap value, with universal table, down feed and fully restored/new condition we can talk... :-) Pete ------- Stepping down [Metal_Shapers] Posted by: "Scott S. Logan" sslx~xxlathe.com loganactuator Date: Sun Aug 19, 2012 11:55 am ((PDT)) I want to thank those of you who have expressed appreciation for my efforts at starting and keeping this group going. I've seen over the past few days that the new group owners are doing a fine job, and as a result, I'm going to remove myself as an "owner" of this group. I'll stick around a bit longer as a member, just in case anyone needs something, but after that, I'm going to leave the group. I've enjoyed this group and its members and wish you all the very best. I am not retiring from Yahoo!Groups, as I still own several other groups, and I'm not retiring from my business. I do, however, have many other things on my plate, both personal and professional, so I just need to thin a few things down. As always, I can still be reached at my email or phone shown below. Sincerely, Scott Scott S. Logan, President Tel +1 (815) 943-9500 Logan Actuator Co. Fax +1 (815) 943-6755 550 Chippewa Rd Email sslx~xxlathe.com Harvard IL 60033-2337 Web http://www.lathe.com USA ------- Interesting little shaper [Metal_Shapers] Posted by: "Davis Johnson" davisx~xxfrizzen.com Date: Mon Sep 17, 2012 3:35 pm ((PDT)) Tubalcain has a recently (August 13, 2012) posted video about a little shaper somebody gave him. He doesn't seem to like shapers much, but is impressed by the workmanship on this one. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QxysfTM95t4&list=UUKLIIdKEpjAnn8E76 KP7sQg&index=5&feature=plcp Is this a model of a specific full size machine? The feed control lever is interesting. Anybody seen anything like it? ------- Re: Interesting little shaper Posted by: "Nelson Collar" nel2larx~xxyahoo.com Date: Mon Sep 17, 2012 4:50 pm ((PDT)) The table feed on the shaper is just like the letterpress I ran as a younger man. It is a very smooth transition up and down. That machine was made in Minneapolis Minnesota maybe from the machine shop. Nelson Collar ------- Re: Interesting little shaper Posted by: "davisx~xxfrizzen.com" Date: Tue Sep 18, 2012 11:07 am ((PDT)) On Tue Sep 18, Richard Sutcliffe sent: >I watched the feed rate change as the lever was moved, but couldn't see >anything happening at the ratchet wheel. Any thoughts on how this works? There are two pawls, one above and one below the ratchet wheel. They both move to the left on each return stroke. There is a cup-like shield with a gap in it connected to the control handle. With the handle centered the gap is positioned so neither pawl can reach through the gap and reach the ratchet. When the handle is moved the the gap in the shield moves with it, and one pawl or the other can reach through the gap to reach the ratchet. Moving the handle further exposes more of the ratchet, for a greater movement per stroke. It doesn't seem to be that much more complicated than some other arrangements that are less convenient. ------- Re: Interesting little shaper Posted by: "Mark Hofer" markahoferx~xxmac.com Date: Tue Sep 18, 2012 11:18 am ((PDT)) Thanks for that helpful explanation as I had been wondering the same thing. It looks to be an elegant convenient solution, better than what is used on my SB7 but having taken it apart this morning I can see a number of faults to be corrected. M ------- slinging oil [Metal_Shapers] Posted by: "dkirk_4" dkirk4x~xxgmail.com Date: Tue Dec 25, 2012 4:57 am ((PST)) Merry Christmas Everyone! So I got an early Christmas present yesterday when I finally got the Ammco up and running and made a few metal chips just to celebrate. I still need to cut a test piece, but it's very quiet, so I'm hopeful. The thing I really notice right off the bat is how much oil it loses. I know it's a total loss oiling system, but it looks like it loses ALL the oil if it runs for any length of time. Any other Ammco owners have similar experience? I made a pan to fit under the shaper, but if it's going to be losing the oil at this rate, I'm going to have to make another one the full size of the cabinet top and put a drain hole in it and run it down into the cabinet into a container. Actually, thinking about drilling holes in the cabinet top, I moved the shaper from the original position and flipped it around on the cabinet and when I was drilling the bolt holes, the top of the cabinet was soaked with oil just about all the way through. The Forstner bit wouldn't clear the wood chips, they just turned to mush and jammed up the two flutes on the bit. ------- Re: slinging oil Posted by: "S or J" jstudiox~xxtbaytel.net Date: Tue Dec 25, 2012 2:57 pm ((PST)) On Dec 25, 2012 dkirk wrote: > The thing I really notice right off the bat is how much oil it loses. I know it's a total loss oiling system, but it looks like it loses ALL the oil if it runs for any length of time. Any other Ammco owners have similar experience? < Yes indeed. A wooden top was on the stand when I bought my AMMCO from an old machine shop operator who was retiring and closing the business. The wood was oil soaked. This was not a factory stand but one the prior owner had welded up from heavy gauge steel and then put a thick wooden top on it. Despite a lot of oil, my wood top was still very solid. Before remounting the shaper, I cleaned the top as best I could and then covered it with a sheet of aluminium. It still drops lots of oil on the aluminium, but at least it is not harming anything now. And that wood will never ever rust. Your idea to put in an oil capture system is a good one. Something I may well do if I find time for a round tuit. And happy holidays to you. Steve -- in Thunder Bay, Ontario, Canada Machining and Metalworking at Home http://www.janellestudio.com/metal/ and still helping the poor petroleum companies stay in business ;-) ------- Re: slinging oil Posted by: "ianmessenger1048" meschirox~xxbigpond.com Date: Fri Dec 28, 2012 9:18 am ((PST)) Greetings all I have been a member of this group for some time but have never been able to post on it before. I have 2 shapers. Sadly, as I have moved premises temporarily, they are being stored in a shipping container with all my other equipment (my workshop was better equiped than a lot of small factories. The first is an 18" Elliott production date 12/12/1956 that I bought at auction from BHP/Goldsworthy Mining.I had it for about 18 years before I rebuilt it. It is a large free standing machine with the tower made as a separate casting to the base. Before I reassembled it I made up a sheetmetal plate to sandwich between the two castings and sealed it with hylomar gasket goo. This catches any oil like a sump. The centre section of the ram in the middle of the bottom surface was galled on both sides. All I did was scrape out the damaged area and made sure that the edges were smooth, then I drilled another oil hole mid way each side and ground some oil grooves away from them in the same style as the other two holes each side. This fixed the problem, but I would love to know where I can get some of the small oilers with the flip lids to fit 1/4" and 3/16" holes if anyone can help me. I did not scrape the whole ram or mating surfaces as there was only a relatively small amount of galling. All the talk about prussian blue, there is two types. marking out blue which is painted on and dries so it can be marked with a scriber, and bearing blue that is a paste that does not dry that is used to locate "high spots". any good engineering supply houses should be able to supply them. Some time ago there was a lot of talk about catching swarf and people were saying that they were using cardboard deflectors and cardboard boxes to catch it. If you were to see the swarf that you can create with an 18" Elliott you would see why I use sheet metal. I do not want to burn down the shed. I did try mounting a large magnet at the end of the machine, which was quite effective for steel, but everything started to become magnetised. My other shaper is a 10 1/2" Douglas that I got along with a Hercus horizontal mill from the John Curtin College of the Arts. They were both like new. I'm sad that they are, along with the lathe and everything else, in storage. Have Fun Shaping Ian Messenger Western Australia ------- australian metal shaper [Metal_Shapers] Posted by: "barny" mortimerx~xxwn.com.au Date: Tue Jan 1, 2013 9:03 pm ((PST)) good evening everyone barney scribbling the shaper build pictures which there are 61 images which i have not finished yet; the thing is am i wasting valubale space or am i wasting my time with these images; i am trying to encourage some people to build; the images are to give someone an idea how to get started on a build of their own; this machine is not fancy, just a simple straight forward machine without getting bogged down in complicated process; in this country these contracptions are few. in the last 5 years i have only seen 2 on e-bay and they have been 2000 miles from me and only lately i have learnt that there are another 2 in my state and i believe these machines to be in a 300 mile radius of my abode. this build is for people who, like myself, are unable to get their grubby little mits on a shaper or do not have too much brass in their pockets to buy one. my apologies for breaking the ongoing thread. barney western australia 2 yards further on than the black stump And in a later message: the images are in the metal shaper pix_2 just under the main site heading ------- Re: australian metal shaper Posted by: "robhyatt2008" robhyatt2008x~xxyahoo.com Date: Fri Jan 4, 2013 5:18 pm ((PST)) Greetings: I, for one, do not think you are wasting our time and space! I thank you. It's a nice build. I am looking at building something like that myself, as I live in the northern Arizona desert, where shapers are rather hard and expensive to come by. I've thought about the Gingery route, but where I'm at, casting might be a problem. I do have a nice milling machine, so a plate build is looking the most likely right now. What did you use for plans? RBH ------- Re: australian metal shaper Posted by: "barny" mortimerx~xxwn.com.au Date: Sat Jan 5, 2013 6:07 am ((PST)) HI ROB 2008 I understand your problem too well, likewise shapers are a little thin in the west W.A. Hence the build. Nothing wrong with the Gingery model, suited for light work only one needs a reasonable amount of bulk weight to combat stresses in these machines unless you don't mind it walking out of the shed door. The shaper build has no drawings; it's built straight out of my head and too the materials which were available. One piece was purloined from my neighbour's fence (with permission). I owe him a tinny for that. I am pleased the images have interested some people. OK, more images to come. The reason for so many images is a bloke can do his own thing without having to follow drawings, just using the images for reference. Once I had the bull wheel and pinion built, the rest is straight forward. ok i will keep the images coming barney 2 Yards beyond the black stump ------- Re: cutting "backwards" on a shaper [Metal_Shapers] Posted by: "Jim S." mrjschmidtx~xxhotmail.com Date: Sun Jan 13, 2013 10:50 am ((PST)) I think the shaper that cuts backwards is called a draw shaper. They were not common and IIRC were used for very heavy duty machining. Jim (Just a guy who likes to build stuff) [And in Jim's later message] Found this link to a draw shaper picture: http://shopswarf.orconhosting.net.nz/mor24.html ------- Re: cutting "backwards" on a shaper Posted by: "Ondrej Krejci" okrejcix~xxyahoo.com Date: Sun Jan 13, 2013 12:10 pm ((PST)) Very nice...see, I wasn't making this stuff up. OK ------- Re: cutting "backwards" on a shaper Posted by: "Charles" xlch58x~xxswbell.net Date: Sun Jan 13, 2013 12:36 pm ((PST)) There were actually factory built built machines that performed the cut on the pull stroke. The clapper box was hinged at the top. I have a manual for one around here somewhere. Charles ------- Re: cutting "backwards" on a shaper Posted by: "chrisw" in2steamx~xxwi.rr.com Date: Sun Jan 13, 2013 3:38 pm ((PST)) The Henry Ford has a draw shaper in the round house at Greenfield Village they use it all the time. I have been trying to find video of it running somewhere; I don't know where exactly but I have seen it running. I have some of my own pictures somewhere, here is a link I found. Basically it's all the same the tool post at the end of the Ram is flipped 180 and has an area the allows it to clapper to move up. In the early days they were able to take much greater cuts, because the metal used to make the machines was not the greatest. It was sort of like a Beta vs VHS kind of thing, the same but different. t does not run any cleaner, the chips bounce off the machine and land on the floor just the same. Best Regards, Chris http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/antique-machinery-hist ory/railroad-machining-henry-ford-museum-greenfield-village-210054/ Gack in Germany made one that was a Draw shaper as well, of course they made a "key way slotter" that was unlike any other shaper I have seen as well. ------- Re: cutting "backwards" on a shaper Posted by: "Charles" xlch58x~xxswbell.net Date: Sun Jan 13, 2013 5:35 pm ((PST)) The Westinghouse [shaper] videos can be found on the Library of Congress channel for YouTube. http://www.youtube.com/user/LibraryOfCongress?feature=watch ------- Re: W - multi-v belts [Metal_Shapers] Posted by: "Rex Burkheimer" burkheimerx~xxgmail.com Date: Sun Jun 30, 2013 9:36 am ((PDT)) No need to machine anything to switch to a multi-v belt. It will ride on the flat belt pulleys as good or better than the original leather. Another possibility is a linked belt, running with the Vee out, and the flat side on the pulleys. That's what I have on my SB 9 lathe and it works fine, though the multi-vee belt is better. Rex B - DFW ------- Re: W - multi-v belts Posted by: "David G. LeVine" dlevinex~xxspeakeasy.net Date: Sun Jun 30, 2013 2:07 pm ((PDT)) Although the linked V belt can sometimes be fit to a pulley which is supported on both ends more easily. Dave 8{) ------- Re: W - multi-v belts Posted by: "guycadx~xxnetzero.com" Date: Sun Jun 30, 2013 6:39 pm ((PDT)) I run my South Bend 10K with a multi V belt (old belt from my toyota Matrix). It has a very good grip on flat cone pulleys. I had to cut the belt in order to fit it on the under drive unit. So far, so good. The belt skyve is done with small holes drilled in the belt, pieces of wire wound like a spring and fed in the holes. A small pin goes through both ends loops like the old leather belts. Drive is very quiet as metal lacing never touches flat pulley metal surfaces. Guy Cadrin ------- Re: W ... Re: Multi rib belt Posted by: "smiling_man_us" radio1x~xxtech-center.com Date: Sun Jun 30, 2013 9:39 am ((PDT)) > If you can do the machining, a multi-rib belt looks more like a flat > belt, has lower losses and (at least the "K" profile) is common in cars > and cheap. > Dave 8{) Dave, I am happy to read that multi-rib belts have less loss. My shaper is an AMMCO and it is still set up with a flat belt. But, the motor on my Maximat 7 lathe lost its smoke one day. When the only motor rebuild shop in the area wanted $900.00 to rebuild it, I looked for other options. Someone down the street tossed out a perfectly good treadmill with working controls and motor. The treadmill flywheel and drive pulley is multi-ribed. If I remember, the v's of the rib were 20° inclusive (I think that is the correct term). It took me two to four hours to make a replacement pulley and install it on the gear side of the lathe spindle. It seems to work allright. The belt that came with the tread mill was too short to use on the lathe. I modified the motor mount so it would bolt to the back of the lathe headstock. I made up a dummy pulley out of MDF and measured the outside circumference from flywheel pulley to lathe spindle pulley. It was about 21 inches. A local industrial supply business was able to provide me with the correct size multi-rib belt that fit correctly and allowed room for adjustment. It cost me about $7.00 + or - a dollar or two. The same business also provides custom length synthetic flat belts to order that worked as well as the leather belt that came with the AMMCO. The custom made flat belt was less than $30.00. I only had to wait after ordering it till the next day to pick it up. This allowed the glue to set and cure. The nice thing about the synthetic belt is how quiet it runs. And it is green, I like green! LOL Donald ------- Re: W - multi-v belts Posted by: "Claude & Pat Gamache" cpgamachex~xxtelus.net Date: Mon Jul 1, 2013 6:47 am ((PDT)) Here is a source for leather drive belts: johnx~xxleatherdrivebelts.com regards ------- Re: W - multi-v belts Posted by: "Druid Noibn" druid_noibnx~xxyahoo.com Date: Mon Jul 1, 2013 7:19 pm ((PDT)) Hi, I know of John Knox - owner of leatherdrivebelts.com - from another site. My experience with him is 100% positive; one of the most helpful folks I've ever worked with. Kind regards, DBN ------- Re: W - multi-v belts Posted by: "Chuck Rice" Chuckx~xxWildRice.com Date: Mon Jul 1, 2013 7:17 pm ((PDT)) McMasters also carries leather belts up to 6 inches wide along with several other kinds of flat belting. It is a pretty good read, even if you don't plan to buy any. I am addicted to hardware and can spend hours reading McMasters web site. There is a lot of great information there. Anything you want, just type it into the search box and it will prompt you for related keywords. Chuck P.S. I am not associated with McMasters, except as a customer. ------- Re: W - multi-v belts Posted by: "Davis Johnson" davisx~xxfrizzen.com Date: Tue Jul 2, 2013 12:24 am ((PDT)) There is lots there that I'd otherwise have to turn to Machinery Handbook for. ------- Craftsman Model Number for Atlas Shaper [Metal_Shapers] Posted by: anthrhodesx~xxaol.com Date: Sat Dec 28, 2013 10:27 am ((PST)) Been a long time since I came to this forum. About time to look in. Recently there's been an ongoing discussion on the Atlasshaperandmillingmachineusersgroup regarding model numbers for the Sears Craftsman versions of the Atlas-built mill and shaper. We've finally determined that the mill is 101.15500 which, for a while, was thought to be the number for the shaper. Now we're trying to determine the correct number for the shaper. I have recently downloaded a PDF of a page from the 1959 Sears catalog which shows the shaper as 99-LR-M1600F. While the order numbers in the catalog are not directly translatable into model numbers, there is reason to believe that the shaper model number would be 101.16000. However, I've done a fair amount of searching and haven't yet been able to verify this, either with a photo of a model number plate on a known Craftsman shaper or from a parts manual with that number identifying the Craftsman version. Can anybody here verify this number or disprove it? If incorrect, can somebody supply the correct model number? A number, even without verification would be helpful. Verified, of course, would be preferred. Thanks for any assistance. Anthony Berkeley, Calif. ------- Re: Craftsman Model Number for Atlas Shaper Posted by: "Tucker Tomlinson" tuckertomlinsonx~xxgmail.com Date: Sat Dec 28, 2013 11:44 am ((PST)) If you can't find an answer in this group you might try contacting the fellow in this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ToNsP8EMbk He's the proud owner of a craftsman branded shaper. I didn't see one in the video but he might have a sears part number somewhere on the machine. ------- Re: Craftsman Model Number for Atlas Shaper Posted by: "inspiro_creo" david.deboizex~xxverizon.net Date: Sat Dec 28, 2013 12:43 pm ((PST)) Anthony, Both my MF and MFC mills are Atlas badged. However, if this is the answer you're looking for, my Atlas 7A Shaper is rebadged as Craftsman. Yes the model number is 101.16000 and Serial Number is SS 000309. I have included links (photobucket) of the tags with this post, please let me know if you can view them. Otherwise I can email you them direct. David-NJAtlas Shaper 7A model number http://i585.photobucket.com/albums/ss292/temuba/Atlas%20Shaper%207A/IMG\ _20131228_143634_786.jpg Atlas Shaper 7A serial number http://i585.photobucket.com/albums/ss292/temuba/Atlas%20Shaper%207A/IMG\ _20131228_143531_442-1.jpg ------- Re: Craftsman Model Number for Atlas Shaper Posted by: "Ian Newman" ian_newx~xxyahoo.com Date: Sat Dec 28, 2013 1:30 pm ((PST)) Hi Anthony, You might get some information from here: http://www.lathes.co.uk/atlasshaper/index.html Drop an email to Tony. All the best, Ian ------- Re: Craftsman Model Number for Atlas Shaper Posted by: anthrhodesx~xxaol.com Date: Sat Dec 28, 2013 7:41 pm ((PST)) David, Thank you. I downloaded your photos, then went to the Atlas group and posted my message and yours along with links to your photos. You already know this, of course, because you've already posted to the Atlas group, but I wanted to make certain to express my appreciation to you on the forum where I had requested help. For the rest of you who also responded, thanks to each of you too. Any of your responses could have been the one that resolved the question for me. Anthony Berkeley, Calif. ------- Re: Craftsman Model Number for Atlas Shaper Posted by: "Charles Brumbelow" mrb37211x~xxyahoo.com Date: Sat Dec 28, 2013 10:07 pm ((PST)) On Dec 28, 2013, Glen Linscheid wrote: > Anthony, I read once that some of the early Atlas shapers did not have > the Zamack side cover. Do you know if there is a way to tell by looking > at one? Magnet will show if the door is cast iron. Zamack or aluminum? Probably a weight difference but you would need weight ranges for known Zamack and aluminum doors. All three metals can be sand cast. Charles ------- Re: shaper evaluation - what should I look for? [Metal_Shapers] Posted by: "Glen Linscheid" partsproductionx~xxcenturylink.net Date: Sun Jan 5, 2014 12:55 pm ((PST)) January 5, 2014 "Tucker Tomlinson" wrote: > Sounds like you found a nice specimen, congrats. On my SB7, which runs the oil pump off the bull gear, I keep a lever oil can handy. If the machine has been sitting, I'll pump squirts of oil on all the ways before start-up. If I've used it recently I might leave it be. Many of the really old machines had no powered oil system, so the designers might have been OK with a few strokes on the residual oil, especially for a machine intended to see daily use where a film would still be there from the last shut down. Cheers < Tucker. Good point about oiling by hand and not trusting the oil system. If there is any criticism of the SB7's oil system it is that people may take it for granted that it is working, and it could take quite a while for oil to make it up to the the ram ways especially. I don't know if the pump can lose it's prime, but certainly problems can appear that stops flow to critical areas. My own had to much flow to one ram way, so it was a mess problem. What is it they say about Harley's, if they aren't puking oil it's because it's out of oil. :-) Glen ------- Re: shaper evaluation - what should I look for? Posted by: "Tucker Tomlinson" tuckertomlinsonx~xxgmail.com Date: Sun Jan 5, 2014 1:05 pm ((PST)) In my SB7 the oil puking is because the oil is flowing back behind the gib. The factory used a black tar-like glue to seal around the little copper pipe that carries the oil from the main casting through the gib. If you are missing that seal or the little copper pipe, the oil winds up all over the top of your casting on that side. Cheers ------- Re: shaper evaluation - what should I look for? Posted by: "Charles" xlch58x~xxswbell.net Date: Sun Jan 5, 2014 1:27 pm ((PST)) Old natural rubber seals that have been exposed to years of oil will appear to be a black tar. Charles ------- Re: shaper evaluation - what should I look for? Posted by: "Glen Linscheid" partsproductionx~xxcenturylink.net Date: Sun Jan 5, 2014 1:28 pm ((PST)) Tucker, I didn't know that about the black tarry goop! I had to scrape my ram on both sides so I had extra slop behind the gib, so I made a longer brass nipple and an annular face groove in the back side of the gib in which I pressed a 1/2" diameter O-ring, the only oil now is coming from the correct (Working) side of the gib. It really made a mess before I read in the old Janelle threads about the little tube that gets sheared off when people try to drive the gib out endwise. Mine was sheared off and oil flowed out the back side and off the end. However, I am not an admirer of that little manifold nor its valves. The valves are way too stiff to turn and very hard to adjust. The far left oil tube goes to the "rocker arm shoe", a critical oil point, the next one forward goes to the LH ram way when seen standing in front looking back, both those lines are served by one valve. The next line forward serves the other ram way and the farthest forward serves the bull gear. I would like to make a manifold that has four valves, much easier to finely adjust, and set up one per line. I wonder how hard it is to get apart. There is plenty of room for a wider block that would use a needle type valve which would be much finer adjustable. Glen ------- Re: shaper evaluation - what should I look for? Posted by: "oldstudentmsgt" wmrmeyersx~xxsbcglobal.net Date: Sun Jan 5, 2014 1:35 pm ((PST)) I've seen such in the high-end aquariums for air lines. Or you could maybe make just the manifold to fit those little needle-valve saddle clamp icemaker fittings internal parts. That way you wouldn't need to grind your own needle valves. ;) Bill in OKC ------- Re: shaper evaluation - what should I look for? Posted by: "Tucker Tomlinson" tuckertomlinsonx~xxgmail.com Date: Sun Jan 5, 2014 2:44 pm ((PST)) Glen, I had my SB7's oil system completely apart to fix one of the valves that had jammed on a chip and the slot for adjusting cracked off. The brass manifold is lightly pressed onto the main pump body, and can be removed easily once the pump/manifold assembly is removed from the machine. More problematic are the copper feed lines, which are soldered into the manifold and into the main casting at the gibs. Once removed from themachine I would think it pretty simple to replace the manifold/lines with a better design. Since one of my original valve pins was broken, I wound up making my own pins and using a little bluing to polish them down for a smooth fit in the manifold. At this point they both turn easily, but a real manifold with 4 valves would be ideal. The pump itself is dirt simple: just a lever actuated brass piston with two ball-and-spring check valves. It seems to work quite well once you get the oil lines clean and the valves adjusted properly. I had the access door off once while running the machine at top speed and the oil was squirting onto the main slider/yoke so hard it was splashing out of the machine. Cheers ------- Re: shaper evaluation - what should I look for? Posted by: "Tucker Tomlinson" tuckertomlinsonx~xxgmail.com Date: Sun Jan 5, 2014 2:44 pm ((PST)) I didn't know rubber turned to tar in oil! This really had the appearance of stuff that had been smeared in rather than a degraded gasket or something similar, but given the age, who knows what it originally looked like. Glen's o-ring solution sounds like a really nice way to take care of the issue. Cheers ------- Re: shaper evaluation - what should I look for? Posted by: "Glen Linscheid" partsproductionx~xxcenturylink.net Date: Sun Jan 5, 2014 3:18 pm ((PST)) Bill, As I understand it the SB "Valves" just have a hole through a cylindrical bar passing through that block, and twisting it lines up the hole to the through holes in the block. Please correct me if I'm wrong. Since way oil (Whatever they recommend I'll still use Vactra) is much thicker than gasoline or air the needle doesn't need to be sharp as a needle nor ground, because any taper adjusted into a passage entry hole has to be better adjusting than what is there now, and more importantly one would be able to select where the flow goes with four valves. Glen ------- Re: shaper evaluation - what should I look for? Posted by: "Mark Hofer" markahoferx~xxmac.com Date: Sun Jan 5, 2014 3:19 pm ((PST)) There is a whole long thread on the SB oiler system about early summer last year with lots of photos, etc. Worth looking up. And as to Harleys', I owned a Road King purchased new in 1995 until 2010 and during the entire time, it did not lose one drop of oil. You can not see where it used to sit in my garage - pristine floor. (And yes, it did have oil in it!!) I think the comment is a fair one though for the old knucklehead machines. M ------- Re: shaper evaluation - what should I look for? Posted by: "Glen Linscheid" partsproductionx~xxcenturylink.net Date: Sun Jan 5, 2014 5:59 pm ((PST)) Sorry Mark, it's just a saying. Probably truer of shapers. Certainly most small shapers are total loss machines that depend on an oil can and a responsible operator, and as the name implies loss means dripping. One of my airplanes has a 1938 designed Continental A-65 engine, and I've never seen one of them come from a long flight and not drip oil, though my mechanic swears the one he rebuilt doesn't. Lycoming's don't, as much anyway. Glen ------- Re: shaper evaluation - what should I look for? Posted by: "Tucker Tomlinson" tuckertomlinsonx~xxgmail.com Date: Sun Jan 5, 2014 5:59 pm ((PST)) Yup, the 'valve' is just a lightly tapered pin with a hole drilled through. The taper keeps the hole depth in the manifold correctly lined up with the manifold passage. Turning the pin mis-aligns the thru hole and restricts the oil flow. As I mentioned, you can make a very satisfactory pin by hand using a honing stick and some layout dye to polish the pin to just the right taper, however, that's not necessary for good function. Cheers ------- Re: shaper evaluation - what should I look for? Posted by: "Glen Linscheid" partsproductionx~xxcenturylink.net Date: Sun Jan 5, 2014 8:48 pm ((PST)) Tucker, One could make a valve that goes into the oil line itself, just a setscrew that interrupts the passage of oil. A simple piece of brass with a through hole for the oil and a perpendicular tapped hole, back the set screw out and the oil moves, run the screw in and it blocks the passage of oil, if it leaks who cares, the whole thing is inside the housing and lost oil goes back into the reservoir. Use one of the set screws that have a nylon plug in so it wouldn't move until you wanted it to. The hole going through for oil would be a sliding fit for the copper tube, cut the tube somewhere out of the way, solder the tube ends in opposite ends of the piece and voila! a valve. It looked to me like a good place would be just over the door, reach up with an allen wrench to adjust it. That would give adjustment for the LH ram way, and that's the only one I've had trouble with. After that the lower original LH valve could be opened all the way, or not as needed. That gives control of one line. I was cogitating all that when I read about the little tube and installed the O-ring, and my problem was somewhat solved. I'd still like more control of oil going to the ram ways because that's the oil that escapes. Glen ------- Original light for a SB 7 inch [Metal_Shapers] Posted by: "Dennis Turk" dennis.turk2x~xxfrontier.com Date: Fri Jan 10, 2014 2:25 am ((PST)) Hi Guys I am going to try and up load some pictures into my album that show all the particulars about an original SB 7 inch light setup. This one on my SB is in wonderful condition and all original. Even the plug which you will see is a twist lock two conductor plug. I had to find a male half of the plug but the original twist lock socket was still in the on/off switch box. Dennis Turk ------- Re: Original light for a SB 7 inch Posted by: donashby1968x~xxgmail.com dutchman1202 Date: Fri Jan 10, 2014 12:24 pm ((PST)) Dennis I look forward to seeing the pictures. My SB 7 did not come with the light but does also have the original twist lock socket still in the bottom of the on/off box. Mine does not have the hole in the support base for the light but has 2 holes on the left side of the base for a light. If you look at the picture on the front of the original South bend shaper manual it shows a shaper with the light mounted in this place. I am trying to find a original light for mine. I have been looking at a possible South Bend light originally made for a lathe as a substitute; some look really close with a few modifications. If all else fails I will just make my own to south bend specs or as close as possible. Thanks Don ------- Re: Original light for a SB 7 inch Posted by: "Mark Hofer" markahoferx~xxmac.com Date: Fri Jan 10, 2014 12:44 pm ((PST)) Just an FYI - The two prong twist plugs are available and I got one to mate with my plug. If the source is needed I can go and hunt down where I got it although that could take a bit of doing. M ------- Re: Original light for a SB 7 inch Posted by: "Dennis Turk" dennis.turk2x~xxfrontier.com Date: Fri Jan 10, 2014 2:17 pm ((PST)) Hi Mark and Don. I think if I remember correctly I got my missing plug from W W Grangers as my company buys stuff from them now and then. Dennis ------- how did you level & bolt down your shaper? [Metal_Shapers] Posted by: "Grant Erwin" gwex~xxtinyisland.com blue_metal_baby Date: Fri Jan 17, 2014 5:09 pm ((PST)) 1955 Sheldon 12" shaper is now in my shop, lubricated, running, and ready for "real" installation. This machine has a cast base with two transverse bosses that extend the width of the machine, so most of the base sits proud of the floor. There are 1/2" holes at the ends. Some serious references say you should level with wedges and bolt down to the floor. The simplest thing to do would be to buy 4 adjustable-height machinery feet, install them, and just let it sit on them. Those have rubber treads that make a machine resistant to "walking around". Please tell me what you did, and what you recommend I do, thanks! Grant Erwin just outside Seattle, Washington ------- Re: how did you level & bolt down your shaper? Posted by: "oldstudentmsgt" wmrmeyersx~xxsbcglobal.net Date: Fri Jan 17, 2014 5:18 pm ((PST)) Grant, I'm no expert, having just gotten my very first personal shaper, but I have read that they can not just walk across a room, but damn near RUN! Especially the larger ones. That ram is pretty big even on my little Lewis 10" (nominal) shaper, on a 20" or so, it could weigh a couple of hundred pounds or more, even if constructed exactly as mine is. Mine is going on a stand (the one my bandsaw came on, in fact) that is just very nearly the right size table wise, and has a spread-leg footprint. I'm going to power it up VERY carefully, and see what happens, and then probably weld tabs on the base to bolt it to the floor when I figure out EXACTLY where I want it. And it will have a max 1/2HP motor. HTH! Bill in OKC ------- Re: how did you level & bolt down your shaper? Posted by: "oldstudentmsgt" wmrmeyersx~xxsbcglobal.net Date: Fri Jan 17, 2014 5:31 pm ((PST)) Crud. Forgot to put in what I do know about leveling heavy equipment. My previous job was as a mechanic (promoted from paper picker) at a cardboard recycling plant. The compactor we used was powered by two 75HP hydraulic pumps, and was capable of rocking the compactor, which was fastened down with 3/4" anchors every 2 feet or so around the perimeter of the 40ft long machine. I currently work in an industrial laundry facility. We recently got a new "Pony" washer, ie a smaller than usual one. Our big ones use a 10HP (or larger) motor, which weighs about 500lbs itself, and drives the hydraulic pump that actually powers the washer. The pony washer uses a smaller motor, and only holds 55lbs of laundry, verses the large one's 400lbs. I can stand inside the drum of the large one. When the maintenance guys installed the pony, they levered it into place, drilled the holes for the 1/2" anchors, and then wedged up the corners until the thing was level front-to-back & side-to-side. They then torqued down the nuts on the anchors, and packed non-shrink grout under the edges of the machine frame all around it. Then left it to cure for a couple of weeks. AFTER the grout was cured, then they had the machine programmed, and let us try it out. While they watched carefully to see if it moved at all. HTH! Bill in OKC ------- Re: how did you level & bolt down your shaper? Posted by: "Glen Linscheid" partsproductionx~xxcenturylink.net Date: Fri Jan 17, 2014 8:37 pm ((PST)) Grant, It's a very good question. Unlike most machine tools the shaper is likely to try to walk around. I have some machine tool wedge feet with rubber tread top and bottom, you adjust the wedges in or out with a 3/4" box end wrench to get the machine level. I've never bolted a machine down, but in the case of a shaper here is a thought. Get some "Red head" concrete anchors, drill the concrete. (Maybe make a sheet metal template or use the machine as a drill guide for smaller carbide concrete drill, then follow with the correct size drill later with the base off.) Drive the anchors down and cinch them up so they are tight in the holes, then put a nut all the way down on each anchor. Place the shaper onto the anchors with the nuts at the bottoms, then adjust the lower nuts until the box table, or whatever you want to use as the authority of flatness is level with a master precision level, then carefully tighten everything in place with nuts on the top to finalize the effort. Just a thought, I have a suspicion the shaper will find a new "level" over time. Some shops level the machine and then trowel grout under them, I never liked that as you can't go back and re level later. Glen ------- Re: how did you level & bolt down your shaper? Posted by: "Richard Sutcliffe" ras1x~xxuniserve.com Date: Fri Jan 17, 2014 8:38 pm ((PST)) We installed an Butler 18" shaper on the new concrete floor in a school shop, we made 4" square x 3/8" steel pads with a 1/2" stud in the centres, A fibrous pad was expoxied to the bottom of the pads and then these were expoxied to the floor. There were four of them and the machine never moved, inspire of occasional "error" in the speed setting by some students - see all that machinery moving scared the h..k out of them too. When I was taking my training we had one trainee walk a 20" machine's ram through the fiber cement wall the behind the machine. It jumped right through on the return stroke. The machine was not fastened down as the school was just "borrowing" the building from another institution, and didn't want to pay for floor repairs when they moved. Our class got to repair the wall. Richard Sutcliffe Atlas 7B shaper Atlas MFB mill ------- Re: how did you level & bolt down your shaper? Posted by: meschirox~xxbigpond.com ianmessenger1048 Date: Fri Jan 17, 2014 9:10 pm ((PST)) Greetings. Maybe this will help. This was taken from this webpage: OPERATORS INSTRUCTION HANDBOOK FOR THE E L L I O T T HIGH SPEED SHAPING MACHINES http://users.beagle.com.au/lathefan/OPERATORS%20INSTRUCTION%20HAND BOOK_R1.pdf Installation Figure 2 shows the Foundation Plan which gives all the required dimensions for installation. In order to ensure accurate and efficient operation, the machine should be correctly levelled and bolted to a good concrete foundation. Before levelling, a swivel table should be clocked square with the top surface of the cross slide. A precision level should be used for levelling the machine using the top surface of the main slide for transverse levelling, and the table top for fore and aft levelling. During levelling, the table support bolts should be released, and the table cross transversed its own width either side of the ram centre line and also vertically transversed. A clock should be used to check table alignments with the ram. The machine should first be levelled at four positions by packings or wedges local to the rear foundation bolts and the front vertical vee slide. The front of the base should now be supported by "feeling" in two wedges or packings local to the front foundation bolts, and two beneath the table support. The foundation bolts should now be tightened down, careful correction being made where necessary to maintain the level. Two packings or wedges should then be carefully inserted, one on each side beneath the centre of the machine body to give support, and the machine grouted in after a final check of all levels has been made. Dr Ian C Messenger DC Western Australia ------- Re: how did you level & bolt down your shaper? Posted by: "David Richards" enginedrdavex~xxgmail.com Date: Mon Jan 20, 2014 1:54 pm ((PST)) Grant: This is my first post to this very interesting group. I have a 14" and 32" G&E shaper in old my shop. The 14 is run by line shaft, sometimes with steam power. Also have an engine/ cylinder head business. One little method I use on the head surfacer that I will use on the larger shaper also is to make a trial cut across a piece and then finish level the machine to make that cut level on both axes. This takes care of any error in your vice (if any) and is quick. Up here in the politically & climatically blighted north country, the concrete floors move around at certain times of the year, so once in awhile I check a final cut with a level and make a slight leveling correction. This saves a lot of time indicating in a new work set-up. Dave Richards ------- Re: how did you level & bolt down your shaper? Posted by: "Grant Erwin" gwex~xxtinyisland.com Date: Mon Jan 20, 2014 5:07 pm ((PST)) Thank you for your valuable technique. I take it, then, that you aren't one of the "level it with wedges then grout it in forever" camp? I'm thinking of ordering 4 adjustable machinery feet with neoprene soles. These: http://www.use-enco.com/CGI/INSRIT?PMAKA=BA325-6615 I don't believe this machine is going to walk around my shop sitting on four of those. Grant ------- Re: how did you level & bolt down your shaper? Posted by: "Dan Buchanan" db45acpx~xxyahoo.com Date: Mon Jan 20, 2014 5:26 pm ((PST)) I have a couple of sets of those feet on my Band Saw and a workbench and they work very well. An alternative might be a Leveling Casters, such as these: http://www.accesscasters.com/25P80S-2.5-leveling-caster.aspx I have these on my Atlas 12" cabinet lathe and couldn't be more pleased. Easily screw the feet down for use, up to use the rollers to move it out of the way. Very nice for the money. Dan ------- Re: how did you level & bolt down your shaper? Posted by: "Glen Linscheid" partsproductionx~xxcenturylink.net Date: Mon Jan 20, 2014 5:39 pm ((PST)) Here's what I have, they accidentally sent two sets with a CNC lathe years ago; didn't want them back. http://www.bilz-usa.com/precision_leveling_wedges.htm Glen ------- Re: how did you level & bolt down your shaper? Posted by: "Bruce Bellows" bbellowsx~xxrogers.com Date: Tue Jan 21, 2014 1:03 am ((PST)) Hi Grant Having installed many large printing presses over the years I learned very early that levelness and stability were of paramount importance for good high quality print production. I have a 7" Ammco shaper which is relatively small but even it develops a fair amount of energy due to the motion of its ram and I can see how a much larger machine can walk across a shop floor very easily. For a lot of presses I would be using leveling bolts to set the print units on precision shim packs, 4" square plate and a few thicknesses of brass shim stock are not that expensive. After letting it sit for a couple of days anchor in down using concrete floor sleeve anchors, test run it at a moderate speed followed by a recheck of the level and adjust as necessary. Use an accurate level, a Grizzly H2682 would do the job ($60.00). If you don't intend on moving the machine for awhile, use non shrinking grout to secure it in place once it's level is stabilized; this will ensure it stays in place and well supported. If you don't grout it check the level regularly. Bruce Bellows ------- Re: how did you level & bolt down your shaper? Posted by: "David Richards" enginedrdavex~xxgmail.com Date: Thu Jan 23, 2014 8:58 am ((PST)) I don't think many of us will be running anywhere near max performance speed with our shapers, but they all have a "natural frequency", (stroke speed) that would have the most tendency to make them to move, or put the most strain on the mounts. It depends on the mass of the reciprocating parts and the rest of the machine. Just stay out of that speed range to be safe. Dave Richards ------- Simple adjustable foot [Metal_Shapers] Posted by: "Glen Linscheid" partsproductionx~xxcenturylink.net Date: Sun Jan 26, 2014 12:37 pm ((PST)) I put a photo in my album "Havir rebuild", of the simple but effective adjustable feet under the Logan shaper. Before doing that the shaper was rocking with every stroke. As soon as it gets allowed it will show. The same thing can be done with concrete anchors if the threaded portion is long enough, once the internal tapers are set tight the nut can be run up and down as needed and another nut on top to bind everything together. As stated in Bill's thread I used a Starrrett square level from a combination set, not very precise but since the bolt feet can move it seemed a waste of time to try and make it perfect. With concrete anchors instead of bolts I feel the level of permanence would justify setting it with a master precision level. I don't think a better way could be found, assuming the anchors never let go. Glen ------- New member [Metal_Shapers] Posted by: "corey jurgensen" jurgcorx~xxyahoo.com Date: Sun Feb 9, 2014 5:39 pm ((PST)) Hello y'all, I'm a brand new owner of an old Rockford shaper. This is a crank machine, if there is any one here that has any info, manuals, our instructions of any kind i would truly appreciate it. I cannot find any info on it on the Web, only on the hyd machines. Thanx Court J ------- Re: New member Posted by: "oldstudentmsgt" wmrmeyersx~xxsbcglobal.net Date: Sun Feb 9, 2014 6:19 pm ((PST)) Corey, there may not be much of anything out there on your specific machine, but there is a bunch of stuff that will get you going. Some of it is in our files section, and some scattered about the internet. One place I like is the NEME-S (New England Model Engineering Society) Website: They have a lot of materials on various shapers, pick one that's close to yours, and read up! I got a Lewis Machine Tools Co. shaper about a month ago, they were sold as kits of castings the purchaser could machine and assemble themselves. I've got a partial set of blueprints (copies on 8.5x11 pages) and a catalog or two. And I've gotten a copy of Ian Bradley's The Shaping Machine off Amazon, and ten gigabytes of pdfs and such. Mine is torn down to derust and repaint, as it spent some time sitting out in the rain, or a leaky shop, or something like that. Not as bad as it could have been, but it's taking longer than I wanted to get it cleaned up. I've used two gallons of evaporust, great stuff! Also done some electrolytic rust removal, also great, but my ERR barrel is currently frozen... ;) Still wirebrushing, priming, and hunting for the seven cans of paint I bought last weekend... Hammered nickle from Krylon to go over the dark gray primer. Then yellow and black for the bull gear and yoke, and some hints of metallic purple for my daughters. ;) Bill in OKC ------- Re: New member Posted by: jurgcorx~xxyahoo.com Date: Sun Feb 9, 2014 10:19 pm ((PST)) Thank you Bill, i will certainly check that out...... I looked at a 12 inch Lewis on the bay....it was in California.....too far away for me... This 16 inch came from StLouis....breeds paint but not used a lot...... Very little wear in critical areas. again thanks for the help Corey J ------- Re: New member Posted by: "Glen Linscheid" partsproductionx~xxcenturylink.net Date: Mon Feb 10, 2014 1:39 am ((PST)) "Very little wear in critical areas" Yes, like I pointed out earlier, a shaper will most likely wear first in two places, the ram ways and the slider and/or yoke slide ways. If you find a shaper with minimal wear in those two places the likelihood is that the whole machine will be close to factory specs, and many shapers literally go months or even years without even being turned on which is why they are not found in modern job shops anymore. ------- From: "austin7rubyx~xxyahoo.co.uk [Metal_Shapers] Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2014 2:40:29 AM Subject: [Metal_Shapers] Re: Brand New Metal Shapers I would be very wary! Look at the apparent unsupported overhang of that box-table, unless the support shaft has been pushed up into the table. Also no specific 'land' in evidence for the shaft to bear upon and move across. GeoffH ------- Re: Brand New Metal Shapers Posted by: "Glen Linscheid" partsproductionx~xxcenturylink.net Date: Fri Jun 20, 2014 3:14 am ((PDT)) Geoff, It appears that the table support was a gradual invention from about 1900 or so. It also seems like some manufacturers didn't adapt it right away, because of patents perhaps? Also, it is true that shapers built before that worked fine, though it would seem to be a worthwhile improvement that should minimize chatter and deflection. This patent is dated 1896; http://www.google.com/patents/US591833 I've seen many shapers that lacked the support and thought the same thing. The Atlas 7, the early one, had no support. The Rhodes didn't and is a very interesting shaper. Countless others lack the support. I think it depends on why someone buys a shaper, the assumption may be that it is for doing work, but how do I justify the four I have? I don't actually use any of them to be honest, maybe the one in my shop two, maybe three times a year. I also suspect that our English cousins with a small hobby shop are more likely to actually use their shapers on a more regular basis, and slightly less likely to have a milling machine. But all my shapers have a support, so as a collector I'm missing an earlier and fascinating aspect of shaper collecting. I envy people who own 6 or 8 shapers, and assume that those who collect on that scale include earlier examples too. I tend to get excited about a shaper that 1. Is small, taking up less space, and 2. Is functionally useful, though I don't use them. Glen ------- Re: Brand New Metal Shapers Posted by: "Doc" n8as1x~xxaol.com docn8as Date: Fri Jun 20, 2014 5:27 pm ((PDT)) FWIW...my 1901-3 steptoe 16 inch has no front table support.....but it weighs abt 1/3 of my 16 inch hd smith mills (4500). as the mass increased, flex increased w/the heavier cuts (1/2 inch doc is no problem) AND wear..also tables increased in wt.....early ones were angle irons (my 1857-1963 E Gould)...course a lite table cut remedies that sag.....i wud think that increasing HD usage, brought abt the table support improvement & w carbon steel tools & lite cuts, no prblems. best wishes doc ------- [Metal_Shapers] Lubrication and Manual for South Bend shaper before oil pumps were a Posted by: geolanex~xxptd.net rwlamparter Date: Sun Mar 1, 2015 1:20 pm ((PST)) I have one of the early SB shapers with the phenolic bull gear and no central oil distribution system. I had thought that the bull gear should get some lubrication, but someone else with an Ammco shaper says that those also have phenolic bull gears and are not lubricated. Apparently in version II of the SB shapers they changed to a steel bull gear and an oil port was added for the gear teeth. Does anyone have a lubrication map/diagram for the early South Bend shapers? Does anyone have a manual for the early SB shapers? The ones on the internet are all for the 2nd version with an oil pump. Is there any preventive maintenance that will help preserve the phenolic bull gear? ------- Hello from new member with old shaper [Metal_Shapers] Posted by: lhc_52x~xxyahoo.com lhc_52 Date: Fri Sep 18, 2015 10:31 am ((PDT)) Hi Folks - I hope my wife does not read these groups because I figured it was easier to beg for forgiveness than ask for permission. I believe I just bought an Ammco 7" shaper for myself and decided to join the group to "learn myself up" on all things shaper related. The machine is about 1000 miles away from me but I had a fellow that owns and restored one, go over and look the machine over before I pulled the trigger. He sent me a very detailed report and most of the issues are easily addressed, with a couple more that will require pestering of acquaintances. With schedules I won't have the machine in my shop for a couple more months, but I do know what bits and pieces will have to be addressed first when I get it. I thought I would toss them up here and see if there are any drawings/sketches/pics that people can point me to. Here's a summary - 1 - The table brace and foot were replaced with an upside down bolt and the bearing surface is a little small - I will want to make a new one - anyone got any drawings or has made a reproduction part for this? 2 - The clapper box is broken at the taper pin on one side - looks like someone wailed on the pin and broke the edge of the box. I will have to have another clapper box made. Again - anyone have any drawings of this part? 3 - The rocker shoe in the bull gear mechanism is worn a lot - I will have to make a new one - found the drawing for one in this group's files - thanks ! 4 - The ram way wiper covers and felts are missing - anyone got a drawing of this part? 5 - The cross feed linkage was missing (not the ratchet - just the adjustable arm with the knurled knob and curved part that connects to the ratchet) The seller had bodged something together but I'd like a proper one - I have found some pics of them but there's several parts and once again, I will be looking for some drawings/sketches etc, if anyone has recreated this part. Thanks! I'm really looking forward to tinkering with this thing and hopefully being able to bring it back to life once again. Cheers, Lewis ------- Re: Hello from new member with old shaper Posted by: l_schoolkatex~xxyahoo.com l_schoolkate Date: Fri Sep 18, 2015 3:43 pm ((PDT)) Lewis, I too have an AMMCO shaper which is shown in the album under my name. Although I don't use CAD, I should be able to sketch out some of the relevant measurements and load the info into the files section. Give me some time though. Louis ------- Re: Hello from new member with old shaper Posted by: bobpendlex~xxgmail.com bpendle1 Date: Sat Sep 19, 2015 12:30 pm ((PDT)) Hi, Lewis "...easier to beg for forgiveness than ask for permission" Do not worry, Lewis. We all know about the little men with magic powers and who live under the bench. That hardly explains how I came to find I have THREE little lathes, all Unimats. The last one was financed by the sale of my shaper. Very sad that but I rarely used it and am getting on in years and decided that anything I couldn't lift and re-position had to go before my heirs inherited the problem. So, about those lathes - sorry to veer off topic - No.2 came because I needed a new motor and it was easier to buy the lathe than find a replacement motor on its own. Yes, I know, other motors can be made to fit but we do like to stay authentic if we can. Lathe No.3 is another matter. That one came with rare and very expensive extras. Again, it made sense to buy it for the sake of those very desirable accessories. It was sheer mischance that then a single motor came my way... I recall that someone, on another list I think, said something like "that's not a shed, that is a Collection". I'd beg forgiveness too, but the trouble is I'm not repentant. Anyway, my wife understands. Collectors we may be but we also do our bit to keep old skills alive. With luck, you won't need to buy another shaper to get the bits you need. The Internet is a wonderful place. Best wishes, Bob ------- Re: Hello from new member with old shaper Posted by: lhc_52x~xxyahoo.com lhc_52 Date: Sat Sep 19, 2015 12:31 pm ((PDT)) Louis - That sounds great - thanks very much. As mentioned, it's going to be awhile before I have the machine. I can't figure out to how to edit my original post but the table brace "foot" is now sorted out. I got the dimensions from an acquaintance and have sketched it up already, so that's one more thing off the list. Best Regards, Lewis ------- Do it yourself shaper build [Metal_Shapers] Posted by: "Charles Brumbelow" mrb37211x~xxyahoo.com mrb37211 Date: Sun Oct 4, 2015 7:25 pm ((PDT)) Someone recently was asking about do it yourself shaper plans if memory serves. Look at this on eBay: http://www.ebay.com/ulk/itm/301750422822 Metal Shaper (Acto 6 Hand Shaper PLANS) And another set of plans from down under. Look at this on eBay: http://www.ebay.com/ulk/itm/291573495524 Metal shaper PLANS (Acto Super 8) Charles ------- Re: Do it yourself shaper build Posted by: "Rick - yahoo" rgsparber.yax~xxgmail.com rgsparber Date: Sun Oct 4, 2015 7:51 pm ((PDT)) You can also go the Dave Gingery route. I built one of his shapers and learned a lot along the way. Rick ------- Re: Atlas 7B help needed [atlas_craftsman]] Posted by: "Whit" WhitPUSMCx~xxaol.com w.philbrick Date: Tue Jan 12, 2016 6:45 am ((PST)) I'd love one too. Ah, what does a shaper do exactly? Whit Not entirely joking, I've bought a large number of tools I'd no idea how to use or what they could do for me and bar none I've always found something that that tool did perfectly better than any other, almost. ------- Re: Atlas 7B help needed Posted by: "Carvel Webb" carvelwx~xxabsamail.co.za cwlathes Date: Tue Jan 12, 2016 8:28 am ((PST)) Hi Whit, If you scroll down the link I posted earlier, you will find 15 examples/ illustrations of what a shaper can do. http://www.lathes.co.uk/atlasshaper/index.html As Jerry and Robert have commented, a vertical mill could often do the same job, but in some cases a shaper lends itself to the task at hand. (Like key ways :>) ) Regards, Carvel ------- Re: Atlas 7B help needed Posted by: "humphrey lees" hleesx~xxwanadoo.fr humphreylees Date: Tue Jan 12, 2016 12:28 pm ((PST)) An old saying –- a shaper can make anything except money. Humphrey ------- Re: Atlas 7B help needed Posted by: "Gregg Eshelman" g_alan_ex~xxYAHOO.COM g_alan_e Date: Tue Jan 12, 2016 7:03 pm ((PST)) On 1/12/2016, Jerrold Tiers jerdalx~xxsbcglobal.net wrote: > If you have no mill, that is your new mill. If you DO have a mill, > then it may sit unused. > A shaper is a "lathe for flat stuff". Unfortunately, a mill can also > be that, and does it often more easily, plus it does a lot of other > stuff. So the shaper gets left. With appropriate attachments, a shaper can do some things that would otherwise require a CNC mill or one like a Kearney and Trecker 2D mill. 'Course anything a K&T-2D can do a CNC mill can. Some shapers had attachments that could rock the work as the table traversed to produce a concave cut surface. IIRC the book I saw that and others in said it could be adjusted to cut cylindrical to hyperbolic arcs. On such a job I'd bet the shaper could do the final finish pass faster than a mill, and it would leave no swirl marks. Would be interesting to know if any such attachments could rock the work in two directions, moving in sync with the ram and table. Mount a strong rotary tool with a grindstone suitable for glass = telescope mirror shaper. ------- Re: Atlas 7B help needed Posted by: "Doc" n8as1x~xxaol.com docn8as Date: Tue Jan 12, 2016 10:09 pm ((PST)) "You also can't mill a square hole." I am 100% w/ you....love my 5 shapers & slotter attachment I made for horizontal mill. but FWIW...I needed a 3/4 inch square hole for the vise handle I made for a van norman 7 inch milling vise, & a 100# 6 inch palmgren milling vise... laid out a center & a circle.......& squared up the layout around it ... drilled out the corners w/ SMALL drill, ...drilled out the center just shy of layout ....squared up the hole to layout w/ long endmill. Corners must be drilled out before the center hole. Smallest i have done this way is 9/16 square...if you must have the corners, the shaper is the way to go! a low probability use is dovetail cuts of 55 deg, & 85 deg. needed for lathe accessories made for antique machines. check out the cost of custom angle cutters! or you can make your own 2 lip angle cutters, either from scratch or grinding down an endmill...done both 50 yrs ago for sight slots on barrels before I had a shaper. hope this may be of value to someone ... best wishes doc ------- Perfecto 7" Powered Shaper [Metal_Shapers] Posted by: ron.kellisx~xxgmail.com rons_hobbies Date: Mon Feb 8, 2016 10:44 am ((PST)) Hi all. Ron the nubi here. The last thread on a Perfecto was back in August so I'd thought I start a new one with some questions to Mike the owner of a 5". Or anyone else with some information. Mine came with the original vice, no tee nuts or studs. Sadly the vice is really small, about 4" opening. Mistake to just think I could use standard 3/8" stud shank tees. Too thick. May I ask what you are using? I'm using filed down carriage bolts for the moment. Mine has the motor mounted right behind the lateral vee ways, left side belted to a jack shaft then back to the shaper. I'd say around 30 rpm final without doing the math. Makes getting to the gibs a PIA. I needed to get to them when I could see the ram rocking on the ways ... so the shaper has become a project rather than a tool I could use on the current project of thinning down a quick change mounting plate for the lathe ... right now I can't even take care of the tee nuts. TIA Ron ------- Re: Perfecto 7" Powered Shaper Posted by: "William R Meyers" wmrmeyersx~xxsbcglobal.net oldstudentmsgt Date: Mon Feb 8, 2016 10:56 am ((PST)) Ron, I just put an AXA-clone QCTP on my new-to-me Atlas TH42 lathe. I used a file and hacksaw to make the t-nut for that. Took about 3 hours. I have also made some t-nuts for my Atlas MF horizontal mill. Used a Clausing Kondia mill at school to get the shape. Need to layout & drill & tap the holes, and cut them apart. My Lewis shaper needs a work plate attached to the table & t-slotted so I can use the Brown & Sharpe #0 vise I got to share between the mill & shaper. Hang in there!! Bill in OKC William R. Meyers, MSgt, USAF(Ret.) ------- Re: Perfecto 7" Powered Shaper Posted by: miketx~xxmjandjvt.plus.com mike_tilby Date: Tue Feb 9, 2016 4:03 pm ((PST)) Hi Ron. Good to see another Perfecto machine amongst all the bigger boys. I made sets of simple oblong-shaped flat nuts out of some steel bar sized so as to fit in the T slots. These were tapped 5-16" BSF and another set tapped 1-4" BSF. Then I use appropriate studding to hold stuff down. The vice is held using the same nuts but with 5-15" socket head screws since these are recessed into the vice base plate. (Of course one has to be careful in that situation that the screw cannot hit the bottom of the T-slot and risk damaging the slot if it is over-tightened). I am surprised that vice supplied by Perfecto is so small. My machine came without any vice and, of course, none of the vices I already had would bolt down in the correct position. I ended up making the vice that you can see in the photo album. It is based on the Drummond shaper vice design and since the loose jaw can swivel it can accomodate non-parallel sided work. I think the time invested in making it was well spent since it is used for nearly every job. It took quite a lot of head scratching to get the bolt-down holes positioned optimally so it makes best use of the ram's movement. Also it can be bolted down so jaws are in line with the ram's movement or at 90 degrees to it. (I also made a swivel base for the vice but I have never used it although it seemed a good idea at the time). It has a jaw capacity just under 5" which is fine for my 5" machine. I use my machine mostly at the mid-speed of about 80 strokes per min. I find the ratchet feed mechanism is a weak point in the design and have modified mine slightly. I wonder if anyone else has had a similar problem. Maybe things are better on the 7" version. Regards Mike ------- Re: Perfecto 7" Powered Shaper Posted by: ron.kellisx~xxgmail.com rons_hobbies Date: Tue Feb 9, 2016 4:03 pm ((PST)) Thanks Bill. Seller, who is moving so I'm glad he took the time, said he had pulled the head for cleaning and given the location of the gibs and what I now know, that's why the head was loose. Ya, the old reciprocating file is looking pretty good right now. Sadly, rusted brake line on my "Back up" `98 Explorer Sport has forced a priority change. Oh, how's this: 27 years total, 2 enlisted, 7 in the Guard/Reserve, about 22 active. Driving a Huey was the joy if my life ... Working on them was second best. Ron ------- Re: Perfecto 7" Powered Shaper Posted by: ron.kellisx~xxgmail.com rons_hobbies Date: Wed Feb 10, 2016 3:55 am ((PST)) Thanks Mike. I'll be looking at your pictures next, but was afraid as tired as I am tonight I'd forget to respond. I'll get some pictures of the 7" posted. Best I can tell, the only adjustment is stroke length. Speed is dependent on the pulleys. Ron ------- Re: Perfecto 7" Powered Shaper - NOT! it's a 5" Posted by: ron.kellisx~xxgmail.com rons_hobbies Date: Thu Feb 11, 2016 9:22 am ((PST)) Uh, I've re-proven I don't have calibrated eyeballs, but better to fess up stupid early. I have a 5 in. Honestly, the size didn't matter to me as I work on small things, I didn't even ask when I purchased it. Obviously my quick glance was way off. Now for my next trick ... I used a ruler. What a concept. Ron ------- Re: Perfecto 7" Powered Shaper - NOT! it's a 5" Posted by: wmrmeyersx~xxsbcglobal.net oldstudentmsgt Date: Thu Feb 11, 2016 9:26 am ((PST)) Hey! That's cheating! ;) Bill in OKC <----- steals tag line: Measure twice, cut once. Weld. Repeat. ------- ------------------------------------------------------------------ This is just one of some 80 files about machining and metalworking and useful workshop subjects that can be read at: http://www.janellestudio.com/metal/index.html ------------------------------------------------------------------