Metal Shaper General is a catch-all file if the primary conversation did not fit neatly into the other metal shaper titles. The metal shaper files are sometimes the hardest to categorize of any on this site. They frequently start as one subject and wander off onto other subjects. For example, someone asks about how to fix a shaper physical problem. The message thread, which you would expect to find in the file "Metal Shaper Repair General" sometimes ends up better suited for the "Metal Shaping Tips" file if the real problem is bad technique, not a faulty shaper. Sometimes that better technique also involves metal shaper bits and/or toolholders. So we have a file here called "Metal Shaper Bits and Toolholders". But I cannot and will not put the thread in all files possible. The thread goes into the metal shaper file that is most appropriate (my choice) or causes me the least editing/typing and/or headache at the end of a long day. Just not enough room on my site for posting threads in multiple files. As mentioned on my home page, you will get the most information out of these files if you check through all of most likely ones for the problem at hand, if the file you try first does not have a full answer. It sure isn't a perfect system, but after a while you will gain the knack of scrolling/skimming files at high speed. If you have copied the files to your site, you can use your text editor or word processor to open all the shaper files at once, and do word searches across all open files at once. Yours can't do that? Get a free copy of NoteTab Light through the home page link. A very good tool. [I have no relationship with them except as a very pleased user of that free program.] If you got to this file directly from my HOME PAGE, return there by using your browser's back button. BUT if you came to this file as the result of a web search engine, see more than 70 additional files on my home page Machining and Metalworking at Home http://www.janellestudio.com/metal/ SAFETY WARNING BEWARE: DO NOT ASSUME that any subject matter or procedure or process is safe or correct or appropriate just because it was mentioned in a news/user group or was included in these files or on this site or on any other web site or was published in a magazine or book or video. Working with metals and machinery and chemicals and electrical equipment is inherently dangerous. Wear safety devices and clothing as appropriate. Remove watches, rings, and jewellery -- and secure or remove loose clothing -- before operating any machine. Read, understand and follow the latest operating procedures and safety instructions provided by the manufacturer of your machine or tool or product. If you do not have those most recent official instructions, acquire a copy through the manufacturer before operating or using their product. Where the company no longer exists, use the appropriate news or user group to locate an official copy. Be careful -- original instructions may not meet current safety standards. Updated safety information and operating instructions may also be available through a local club, a local professional in the trade, a local business, or an appropriate government agency. In every case, use your common sense before beginning or taking the next step; and do not proceed if you have any questions or doubts about any procedure, or the safety of any procedure. Follow all laws and codes, and employ certified or licenced professionals as required by those laws or codes. Hazardous tasks beyond your competence or expertise should also be contracted to professionals. Let's be really careful out there. (c) Copyright 2003 - 2008 Machining and Metalworking at Home The form of the collected work in this text file (including editing, additions, and notes) is copyrighted and this file is not to be reproduced by any means, including electronic, without written permission except for strictly personal use. ============================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2002 20:03:20 -0500 From: "jerdal" Subject: Bull gear shaft [POSTED TO ATLAS GROUP] Well, the Atlas shaper bull gear shaft is still where it started out. Bearing and housing has not moved even 0.001 as far as I can see, relative to the keypocket which is exposed to view. I have tried all kinds of penetrating oils etc, tapping, everything short of "bashing" it, or heat, which is not practical in this case (most forms of torch etc will just mess up something else, and anyhow it isn't the shaft I need to heat, but the bearing race. Not a good plan). Unfortunately, the unit is un-runnable as-is, because it started with about 30 thousandths play in the bearings, and won't move any farther EITHER way. I am in need of more ideas for dislodging stubborn bearings. So far gear pullers, wood mallets, and lead hammers have failed to get any movement, before and after penetrating oil. The area is pretty much oil soaked anyway. Other than freeze mist, I am out of ideas. Bearing is about 3" diameter, with close to a 1" hollow shaft, stepped down to maybe 3/4 level with the inner bearing race. Thanks Jerry ------- Date: Fri, 07 Jun 2002 01:33:19 -0000 From: "outlawmws" Subject: Re: Bull gear shaft Borrow or rent a co2 tank and run it for awhile thru the hollow shaft. It should have the same effect that heating the outer race would. -Outlaw ------- Date: Fri, 07 Jun 2002 08:30:53 -0700 From: Jay & Anne Greer Subject: Re: Re: Bull gear shaft Hi Jerry, Years ago, when I was in Tahiti, we froze up a piston in the Diesel Engine on the schooner I was on. We went to the Hinano Brewery and got a box of dry ice and packed the bottom of the hollow piston with pieces of the ultra cold stuff. A broom stick and hammer popped it right out. I think if you can pack the inside of the shaft with ice in the same way, it may even work better than spraying it with CO2. Good Luck, Jay Greer ------- Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2002 08:42:57 EDT From: toolroomtrusteex~xxaol.com Subject: Some shaper information This was sent to the gingery machines e-list. It has some useful information on shapers and even mentions hand powered ones: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gingery_machines/files/About%20Sha pers/2935-Shaper1.pdf Check out the Gingery groups Files as there are 4 more of these Duplex files as well as some other files on shapers. Dave Gingery did write a book on making a shaper using aluminum castings and CRS plate. Larry Murray ------- Date: Sun, 15 Sep 2002 16:43:35 -0000 From: "gcbc74" Subject: Whipp Shaper First, I have no experience with shapers. I have a chance to buy a 16" Whipp shaper for $250. It is in pretty good shape. Some wear on the square slide but looks like it would be fairly easy to scrape true. I don't see a vertical pwr feed, is that a handicap? It has no vise. I'm wondering if I should go for it or look for something more modern. What do you guys think? Thanks, Larry ------- Date: Sun, 15 Sep 2002 17:47:33 -0500 From: "Ray Ethridge" Subject: Re: Whipp Shaper Larry, I am a real proponent of the "Bird in the Hand" theory. In the past if I have known where one is and let it get away I have almost always regretted it. You may be able to find a better deal, but you gotta admit it couldn't get much cheaper! As far as the power vertical feed, I don't have one on my shaper (Sheldon 12") and really can't say that I would have used it much if I had. The biggest handicap in the deal is the lack of a vise. It will set you back a pretty penny getting a respectable vise for a 16" shaper. If you think you may find another one with a vise somewhere I think I would go for one with the vise. On the other hand, you have a ready made theme song you could be playing while using it... "Whipp it " "Whipp it good" "naa-naa-naa naa" "Whipp it" What other shaper owner could say that??? Ray Ethridge ------- Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2002 11:18:03 +1200 From: "" Subject: Re: Whipp Shaper I certainly wouldn't be letting a likely shaper of that sort of size slip by at the moment. Certainly a vice is very nice to have. On the other hand, you can in fact make a suitable vice using the shaper itself if necessary, although this tends to mean that the size of the vice is a little smaller than you would otherwise have. This is not necessarily a big disadvantage, as bigger jobs tend to bolt on the table anyway. It is actually worth thinking before just sticking the job in the vice, as it is one more source of error. A collection of bits of flat and angle with holes drilled in and a set of bolts and T nuts is certainly a great asset to have with a shaper. Power downfeed is not actually a very common feature, at least on smaller machines. it may be more so on bigger ones. It is perfectly possible to add one to an existing machine without major surgery. The Ian Bradley book shows how to do it for instance. But I haven't found the need to do so for either of mine yet. In general, results will be more accurate if the surface is determined by the horizontal feed. For instance, to make one face at right angles to another, it is better to face off the first, bolt that to the side of the table, and face off the second using the horizontal feed. This does require that the table be correctly aligned, which is easily checked with a dial gauge, and that the side of the table be at right angles to the top. It generally will be in a competently made shaper I hope! The alternative, of facing the top and then doing one side using the downfeed on the ram, does not tend to give as good a finish on the side, and it can be very hard to get the downfeed accurately aligned. regards John ------- Date: Sun, 22 Sep 2002 20:01:03 -0000 From: "Art Volz" Subject: Re: post #1781 --- In Metal_Shapersx~xxy..., "Merril Mabon" wrote: > Wow ! Ask and you shall receive. I just finished reading all the > posts re: Steptoe. I never used the "Archives" feature before but > will again I'm sure. There were many I do remember reading but > Steptoe did noy ring a bell. Some of us have senior moments- with me > it's senior seasons. I'll check out the ad and take a look, and > probably purchase if possible. Merril Merril--When you go look at it, look for completeness and how well it operates--cutting metal under power. Look for OEM accessories such as a good and correct swivel base vise. Look at the toolholder: if its an Armstrong style--the one with the crennelations (sp?) where it grips the square HSS cutting tool allowing rotary adjustment--that's the one you want. Straight LATHE tool holders (non-rotatable tool) for CARBIDE tool bits will work too, but add no value if with the shaper. The vise does...a little; it will become your primary work holder. Look also at the shaper's bulk and its weight. Can you move it...transpo it...get it into your basement shop, if you have to? If you have to dissassemble it to move it, make sure that the seller will give you the time--and the assistance--to do so. And, if you do have to dissassemble it, to move it, make sure you take photographs as you do so, place the small parts into sealable containers LABELED, and draw diagrams showing how the parts should fit together when you reassemble them. Also, only take apart what needs to be taken apart, and restrict yourselve to the bigger pieces. If you don't need to take something apart: DON'T. Many good machines have been permanently wrecked by newbie owners taking them apart, either to move them, or to "make them like new" when all they really needed was a good solvent cleaning and scraping and proper re- lubrication. Paint has two purpose only: the primary one is to preclude rusting; the non-essential one is cosmetic "to make it B*E*A*U*T*I*F*U*L...again". (Farmers don't paint their machines...their tractors...and manure spreaders...and they work and work and work--usually only tighten 'em up and lube 'em if necessary.) The ram should be removeable readily as an assembly; note the direction that the top crank link is pointing. Really look closely at the gibs so that they can be replaced exactly in the same position that they were originally in. If they are tapered gibs (I don't know about the Steptoe) think twice before doing anything. In a similar manner the table can be removed, and then the motor. If the motor is huge and heavy for its rated HP output, consider buying a modern, smaller, and more efficient motor (and electrically safer) as a replacement; keep the old motor on a shelf as being the OEM legacy one. But, in your purchase price, if it is an olde-tyme motor and you will have to buy a new replacement for maybe $150, then that $150 needs to be one of the first discounts from the asking price. Don't make an offer for anything at your first appraisal viewing ...just hum a bit and let the seller talk his piece...unless, of course, it's "give-away-day" at the old homestead. Tell him you need to think about it (it ain't going anywhere) and discuss it with your wife. Tell him you'll get back with him in several days...let him stew a tad as HE re-thinks about it.... If, at that time, you're still interested...contact me directly via Email and I'll discuss it further with you. Art (Houston) ------- Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2002 09:45:41 +1200 From: "" Subject: Re: Looking for Logan info Dave Audette david.audettex~xxverizon.net schrieb: >>I'm picking up a Logan 7" this afternoon ( it replaces my 7" Rhodes ) and I've been looking for some/any sites with info on these machines. Tony's Lathe Archive has a little bit about them but not much and most of what he has is on the 8". I didn't even find any mention of it being chain drive. It seems like a very nice machine and I'd like to find out more about it. I put my Rhodes on Ebay and was surprised at how quickly it went. I have a chance to pick up another one ( 7" Rhodes ) that still has the original oil cups and all, I haven't decided on that one yet. I was bummed out when I noticed that the Logan didn't have any T-slots in the table. I was thinking about having another table cast for it ( there's a small foundry that will do one-off's nearby ) or maybe just drilling & tapping a pattern of holes instead. That's why I'm thinking about picking up the Rhodes as well, even though the table is open at the bottom and unsupported, the table had a pair of T-slots that will allow me to bolt work directly to it. The Logan still has the original vise, I like it but it seems somewhat limited and I'd like to be able to work without it. Any ideas/suggestions would be appreciated. Dave Worcester, Mass www.broncosaurus.net << Hi Dave, The fact that one of my shapers has T-slots while the other doesn't has given me reason to ponder the pros and cons a little. The Alba 1a has a fairly typical setup of three T slots on the top, parallel to the surface of the ram, and two on the right side, also parallel to ram travel. The left side ofthe table has no slots, but has a V groove such as one might put a shaft in. Of course, since there is no way to clamp it there, apart from maybe some large clamps across the whole table, it hasn't been used yet. Meanwhile, the AMMCO has no slots but has grooves about an eight of an inch deep, with tapped holes at the bottom. A previous owner has added a couple of extra holes to suit the vice, which is not an original but is a very good one. The left side has the same setup, with the grooves parallel to the ram, while the right side has the grooves vertical, and has a V groove in the middle. This is handy for shafts, since the tapped holes in the grooves either side can be used to hold things down It seems to me that the tapped hole approach allows more potential holding down points, because T slots must not be too close or they will weaken the table too much. Admittedly, you cannot slide a t nut along when using tapped holes, but they can be very close without too much effect on strength. The grooves are handy as you can put a piece of keysteel or other suitable stock in them to help with lining up...I have grooved the vice to allow quickly setting it in line. So my take on the situation would be that T slots are good if the table is big enough, but that for a small table, say the seven inch size of shaper or below, I would if designing consider using the groove and tapped hole approach. I think it is definitely better to have the grooves rather than just tapping, since they are such a handy setting up aid, and it does not preclude having holes elsewhere if needed...one for the vice is not in a groove. Incidently, for those who would like the best of both worlds, you can easily bolt a sacrificial piece of plate to the table that may then be tapped as needed for jobs. When it starts to look too much like a colander, replace it with another. I've just been using a similar trick on the lathe to help in mounting large cylinders...bolt a flat plate onto the faceplate with a single long bolt through the spindle, turn the end to match the bore of the cylinder, then it is really easy to set the cylinder in place and mount it with dogs onto the faceplate. You can still do some final alignment using the dial gauge at the other end. IOt is far easier than just mounting the cylinder on the faceplate then aligning it. One of the jobs I used this for was adding a recess to an existing bore. regards John ------- Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2002 17:45:31 -0500 From: "Ray Ethridge" Subject: Logan Lubrication Inbstructions Art, I have been using the Vactra No. 2 on my Sheldon, it is probably better than the no. 4, especially for those fine folks north of Interstate 10 who might have to worry a little about their oil thickening up a little in their pending weather changes. While the #4 may be just fine, especially if your machine has a little more clearance than original, I think it is a tad thick even down here where the temp never drops enough to thicken the oil. I have never seen the oil thickening problem first hand, mind you, I have only heard tell of it. Ray Ethridge Original Message -- From: Art Volz To: Metal_Shapersx~xxyahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, September 23, 2002 4:41 PM Subject: [Metal_Shapers] Logan Lubrication Inbstructions Dave-- Great haul! Now you need to find the vertical slotter attachment for your Rhodes. If I had a Rhodes, I would be embarking on an eternal quest until I found, and transported home, the slotter: and then it would be a slotter-only shaper next to my Lewis-10. Here's the "Lube Order" from a manual on the Logan-8 that Scott sent me for a reasonable price ( http://www.loganact.com ). It's for the 8, but any differences between it and your 7, other than perhaps an inch more of stroke, is trivia. The "Lube Order" didn't specify SAE weights for the oil or the grease, however, probably a SAE10 non- deterg (Best: Mobil Velocite No. 10 Spindle Oil - Medium) for rotating axles, etc; for slideways--ram & table traverse/elevation-- SAE20 or SAE30 non-deterg or Wally-Marts' El Cheapo SAE30 Bar and Chain oil (Best: Mobil Vactra No. 4 Way Lubricant - Heavy; maybe No. 2 - Light to Medium would be better?). The places that require light grease--your guess as to Brand & Type is as good as mine--a name- brand high-pressure light grease made by ??? perhaps??? LUBE ORDER: 1. Ram:--There are two OIL cups on each side of the ram provided for OILING. 2. Eccentric Drive Link:--A ball OILER is located in the top of the ram clamp screw. This assures proper lubrication to the link. 3. Clapper:--An OIL hole is provided for lubrication to tapered pin in clapper box. 4. Sprocket Drive:--A pressure fitting with cavities is located at this point on the machine, which will retain a light GREASE. This point should be lubricated once every thousand operating hours. 5. Jackshaft:--There are two OIL cups located in the bearings to assure free lubrication of jackshaft. 6. Saddle Screw (table traverse screw):--For proper lubrication of saddle screw an OIL hole has been located in each end of the saddle. (I would use waylube OIL on this screw.) 7. Link (table ratchet feed actuating link):--An OIL hole at each end of linkage for lubrication. 8. Block (crank slide block):--Open cover (side access door) to lubricate block. (I would use waylube OIL.) 9. Eccentric Arm Shaft (the pin at the middle bottom side of the column base on which the crank arm pivots):--A pressure fitting with cavities is provided to retain a light GREASE. This point should be lubricated every thousand hours. 10. Variable Speed Pulley (inside bottom cabinet):--A pressure fitting is located on the back side of the base connected by flexible lubrication hose to pulley. Use a light grade GREASE. A stick graphite or a grease with fibre base should be used for lubrication of the roller chain drive. (N.B. Mario V. recommends that all oil lubrication can be best accomplished with "Mama Mia Mafiosa" brand Xtra-Double Virgin Sicilian Olive Oil...applied with a double-sawed-off-barrel "El Lobo" "greaser". He says the 12-gauge shells come in SAE olive-oil grades too...or any grade you want: "Hey...whadja want?? Shut jer mouth!!" :-) ) PS: See the PDF file of my Porter-Cable-7 Brochure that Scott scanned into "files": It is very close to the subsequent Logan-7. Art (Houston) ------- Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2002 22:03:58 -0500 From: "Mario L Vitale" Subject: Re: Logan sprocket box [Metal_Shapers] "Dave Audette" wrote: >> I had the Logan running for a short time. Everything sounded good but it wasn't advancing the table automatically.The sprocket box turns easily when using the handle but there's *just* enough resistance to keep it from actuating on it's own. If I hold the handle on there while it runs there's enough resistance to make it advance and when the handle is removed it will continue on it's own for a minute or so but then it quits. Anyone else go through this ? I'm thinking it's just a lubrication issue but I wanted to ask. It looks like there's just a taper pin holding the box onto the shaft and the removal looks pretty straightforward. Suggestions from anyone who's gone thru this would be appreciated. Dave << Dave, I had the same problem with my Lewis when I got it. Lubrication did help a little but the real problem was the tension on the ratchet pawl had to be adjusted to put *just* a little more pressure on it. the Adjustment was a bit touchy...had to play with it for a while before I got it right. Mario ------- Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2002 23:34:59 -0400 From: "Dave Audette" Subject: Re: Logan sprocket box Mario, Yup, that seems to be the problem all right. I got it off ok and opened it up, some light grease and it was reassembled and back on the shaft. It works great in one direction but not the other and the tension just isn't right. The question is how to go about adjusting the tension without changing the spring. I don't doubt that the original spring doesn't have the tension that it used to but I doubt I'll find a replacement anywhere. I'm starting to wonder if I'll need to make a new one to get the tension right. I imagine I'll wind up with a roll of the correct size music wire and a trial and error approach. I doubt Logan has any parts left for these things. Dave ------- Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 07:43:35 -0500 From: "Mario L Vitale" Subject: Re: Logan sprocket box Dave, well, I guess you should have bought a Lewis!!! It has a nice little chrome plated screw and jamb nut that allows you to adjust the tension. That's what you get for buying that 'off-brand' stuff!?!? (just kidding Dave *and* Scott) Making springs can be a lot of fun, but from what I understand, there's a bit of black magic involved in getting exactly the desired tension/ compression. Before I did that, I would simply measure the length of the existing spring then stretch it in very small increments till it work! Good luck Mario ------- Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 15:52:11 -0400 From: "S or J" Subject: Re: Logan sprocket box Hi Dave. Absolutely agree with Mario. I suspect that my AMMCO (and its later Rockwell/Delta counterparts) share this touchy feed problem with yours. What you are calling a sprocket box on the Logan is presumably what AMMCO calls a pawl lever -- a housing that surrounds the ratchet feed gear on the crossfeed screw, and contains the spring-loaded pawl. When I got my AMMCO this was the one function that initially drove me to distraction. In my case the pawl would nearly always feed the number of teeth it was set for, but would not disengage properly (be sprung upwards) so it would then rotate the ratchet gear backwards again. The failure could be moving back all the teeth originally moved forwards, or sometimes skipping one or two so there was an erratic feed of sorts. Cleaning and oiling made it work reasonably well, but not always consistently. It was very sensitive to how deeply the pawl was set. Too far (deep into the gear) and the pawl was never disengaged by the spring. Too shallow, and it would not consistently feed. In my view the AMMCO setup is flawed by a fundamental design compromise. A clockworks or other one way ratchet and pawl are slightly hooked to give positive engagement on the forestroke, and positive disengagement on the backstroke. The AMMCO ratchet is really a symmetrical gear, as it must be to work in either direction. The pawl's tip is of very critical shape to stay down between teeth and pull one way, and lift in the other direction. Wear and tolerance on the pawl can only make the matter worse. The pawl spring tension on mine cannot be adjusted separately from the depth of pawl engagement. As a practical matter, the best one can do with the original device is to scrupulously clean and lubricate the pawl lever so that it is as friction- less as possible on its rotation around the crossfeed screw so then you only(!) need to concentrate on getting the pawl engagement/spring pressure just right. Not easy eh? Mine works fine at this moment and I will not adjust it again until absolutely necessary. When this gadget gets more unreliable, I will be motivated to try to make a better one to hopefully include the following features: - a bearing where the pawl lever rotates about the crossfeed screw; - separate adjustments for pawl depth and spring pressure; and - a ball joint for attaching the other end of the pawl lever to the feed rod to reduce any possible friction there. Unless someone else has a better idea? Please. Steve in Thunder Bay, Ontario ------- Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 20:35:45 -0000 From: "Art Volz" Subject: Logan: Ratchet Housing & Feed Pawl Assembly Dave-- I would fix it this way, and in this order: 1. Study the Logan Operator's Manual page entitled: "Ratchet Housing & Feed Pawl Assembly"--the isometric exploded drawing clarifies how the various parts inter-operate. 2. Carefully remove your housing/assembly from the traverse table screw and C*A*R*E*F*U*L*L*Y dissassemble it. Label and put parts into containers so you don't loose the lil' buggers. Do as Steve suggested: clean, remove "after market" burrs, corrosion, rust, etc, and lubricate. You may wish to make a short shaft to emulate the table traverse screw so you can manually operate the mechanism while you adjust its operation. Treat it as an operational module. 3. Although Mario's method of "tweaking" the spring will work, don't change nuthin' of the OEM parts (at least not until you really gotta): use that spring (secured in a zip-lock plastic bag to preclude loosing it and after measuring it: number of coils, current length, spring diameter (OD), spring wire diameter) to try to find several candidate off-the-shelf replacement springs for trial. Sears hardware stores, ACE, True Value, and others, all carry an assortment of springs--one may be the exact one you need. One thing I noticed about the Logan engineering staff was that they were no-nonsense old fashioned engineers who didn't believe in re-inventing the wheel--or a spring--if a standard off-the-shelf one was available. Some of the other tool distributors offer spring grab-bags filled with all sorts of wierdy springs. I may even have sitting in my "spring box" the exact spring that you need--post the measurements of your current one here, and I'll look...and send you...ones that are close...and a tad longer. Springs get "tired" when under continual compression, and start to "remember" their compressed length as being their original length. Springs be bad! 4. As Major Roger (Roger's Rangers, Revolutionary War) might have stated in his "Rules": "Don't Do Nuthin' Wrong--Do It Rite The First Time." Art (Houston) ------- Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2002 10:09:24 +1200 From: "" Subject: Re:Fine feeds...a better idea? OK, I haven't tried this, so it may have hidden pitfalls.... What I am intending to try is the use of jamming roller clutches for a shaper fine feed. I don't know if you will be familiar with the devices I mean, but they are constructed a bit like a needle roller bearing, but are arranged so that when turned one direction the rollers jam and the unit drives, while when it turns the other, the rollers run free. Now, an advantage of this is that the feed can be varied from nothing to a maximum, with any amount in between being possible. This would be done by varying the stroke from the eccentric drive on the bullshaft. The usual ratchet feed only allows feeding by whole numbers of teeth, 0,1,2,3 etc. (Usually no more than 3 in my experience.) A possible disadvantage would be that you woudn't hear the "click-click" that tells you it is still feeding. Normally these clutches only drive one way, so to be able to feed in both directions I am going to have to figure out how to have two of them and only select the one wanted. Since they are not very bulky, I don't think this will be a big problem. Both my shapers, AMMCO and Alba, can be annoying, in that when you reverse direction they need the backlash taken up before they feed. Otherwise, there is insufficient friction in the screw to make the ratchet drive. This could be mitigated by providing a friction pad somewhere on the screw. My AMMCO has a nonstandard feed, the original must have been wrecked somewhere in the last fifty years or so. The obviously homemade replacement works, but since it is so nonstandard I am quite open to the idea of improving it using the roller clutches as above. Unless of course someone else has an even better idea. (OK, CNC would be another option.....) regards John ------- Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 19:12:11 -0400 From: "Dave Audette" Subject: Re: Re: Logan sprocket box Steve: The pawl seems to be engaging properly, it's just that the entire assembly has a tendency to rotate. Another variable that I had considered last night and looked into today is the orientation of the assembly. When I saw it run at the previous location and when I brought it home to my shop the pawl (which sticks out from the center of the assembly sort of like a finger) was pointing to the 4 O'clock position. I wondered if this was the correct position for it but had to way to know. I took a look at the Porter-Cable brochure in the files section and it shows the assembly oriented so that the pawl points straight up to the 12 O'clock position. The problem is that I haven't figured out how to keep it in that position once I move it there. I'm hesitant to start playing around with the original spring since not only is it pretty old but it's the only one that I have. I hope that I don't have to replace it because making one is the only option I see if I go in that direction. (I suppose I have to learn how to do it *sometime*.) Dave Worcester, Mass www.broncosaurus.net ------- Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 19:30:47 -0400 From: "Dave Audette" Subject: Re: Logan: Ratchet Housing & Feed Pawl Assembly Art: Where can I get me a copy of the Operator's Manual ? The machine came with no literature at all ( I bought it from Kay Fisher so you'd think if there was any info available on it he would have it but no such luck ) I had the housing off of it last night to clean and lubricate the gear housing. I left the pawl assembly alone for the time being since it doesn't seem to be part of the problem. I think it's a combination of problems/adjustments. first off the feed- screw seems to be too loose. It turns very freely which is in some ways desirable but I think it's gone a bit far, when it's running and it won't advance it's like using a socket/ratchet combo on a bolt that's still too loose. You know how you have to get the bolt started a few threads on to the nut before there's enough resistance to make the ratchet mechanism work? Until there's a little bit of resistance the ratchet will just spin in either direction but once the resistance is there it will ratchet correctly. That's just what the shaper is doing. If I stand there and hold the end of the feedshaft in my fingers while it's running there is enough resistance for the ratchet assembly to work but if I let go of it then it just turns freely in both directions. Problem is that even though I can identify the problem I can't see how to adjust it so that it works. I think another contributor to the problem is the orientation of the ratchet housing. I've been using it with the pawl pointing to the 3 O'clock position because that's where it was when I saw it run and I never changed it. when I looked at the Porter-Cable brochure it showed that housing oriented so that the pawl & the direction knob were pointing straight up at the 12 O'clock position. I can move it around to the "correct" position but I'm not sure how to go about *keeping* it there. I'll probably have to take the thing off again and when I do I'll clean up and measure the springs, thanks for offering to look thru your spring box. Dave Worcester, Mass www.broncosaurus.net ------- Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2002 11:47:58 +1200 From: "" Subject: Re: Re: Logan sprocket box Often there is an adjustment for the length of the rod between the eccentric on the bull shaft and the ratchet arm on the feed screw. For instance my Alba one has a telescopic rod with a grub screw. This should be adjusted so that the eccentric arm travel is about equal either side of vertical. It needs adjusting when you change the table height by a large amount. The Alba one can get into a completely wrong position if this is neglected. Since the only thing stopping the ratchet driving the wrong way is the friction of the screw and table, they will often not drive properly unless you take up the backlash on reversing. A truly positive drive would have an additional ratchet, so that the screw could not turn the reverse way. (The same thing happens with ratchet wrenches, usually when the nut is still just too tight to take off by hand.) So the drill is swap the pawl over, then wind the feed handle until it takes up the drive. Just swapping the pawl will often lead to the feed screw just oscillating backwards and forwards. This often happens on my AMMCO, the Alba seems less prone to it. Taking up the backlash by hand means that the screw is driving the table, so you get that extra bit of friction and all works well. (Although the AMMCO has been known to stop driving part way through a cut.) regards John ------- Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 19:32:23 -0500 From: "Mario L Vitale" Subject: Re: Re:Fine feeds...a better idea? John, I've always heard those devices called a "sprag clutch". They are very effective. I'm not sure I understand fully what you are trying to do, but one way you could get reversing directions with two "sprag clutches" is have them side by side keyed to a common shaft with the key only as long as the thickness of one clutch hub. If you had a yoke with one end attached to the pawl, and the other attached to the end of the key, by sliding the yoke you could move both the pawl and the key to the appropriate sprag clutch letting the other run free!?!? Mario ------- Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 18:35:06 -0700 From: Keith Green Subject: Re: Re:Fine feeds...a better idea? I'm familiar with those (sprag?) clutches. Taken them apart, repaired, installed new...etc. One pitfall may be that those things might not give a consistant feed per stroke. Also, as they wear, the feeds will change. What's your finest feed right now? keith ------- Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2002 13:51:47 +1200 From: Tom Subject: Re: Re:Fine feeds...a better idea? giolw9r4vh001x~xxsneakemail.com wrote: > OK, I haven't tried this, so it may have hidden pitfalls.... > What I am intending to try is the use of jamming roller clutches for a > shaper fine feed. I don't know if you will be familiar with the devices 1/2" drive ratchet springs to mind, gives you reverse as well, there's plenty on the market with fine divisions... Here's a site for the roller clutches by the way: http://www.torrington.com/products/needle/rollerclutch.htm Forgot to ask, why do you want a finer feed? I find the best way to get a good finish, is to stone a flat on the tool tip, wider than the feedrate and parallel to the surface. Tom M/shop info & old machine tools. http://shopswarf.orcon.net.nz ------- Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2002 14:29:36 +1200 From: "" Subject: Re: Re:Fine feeds...a better idea? Actually I am not necesasarily trying to make the feed really fine...it just strikes me as quite an elegant solution. I can't actually tell you what the finest feed I have is, having not done the maths, but it is 1 step on about a thirty tooth rachet so is not too coarse. I don't usually use the coarser rates that are possible, since if the issue is removing metal quickly it is more likely to be done on the bigger Alba. The existing one on the AMMCO works Ok, (mostly) it is just not very elegantly made. If I do it with the sprag clutches, I would provide two. No doubt there are a number of ways to set it up so I can use one and not the other, so I'll see what looks possible. The rachet wrnech is another possibility, but part of the idea is to make something that looks better than what is there already! Anyway, I am not likely to do it in the next few weeks since I will be moving house sometime soon... regards John ------- Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 21:49:24 -0500 From: "J R Williams" Subject: Re: Re:Fine feeds...a better idea? Have you thought about using a 3/8 inch ratchet wrench handle, the one with a hex hole thru the ratchet mechanism. All you would have to do is cut off the handle to the correct length and reviose teh hex to fit the square drive, unless you could obtain a square drive wrench. There are some wrenches with a fine pitch. have fun. JRW ------- Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 21:51:12 -0500 From: "J R Williams" Subject: Re: Re:Fine feeds...a better idea? Another option is to obtain the "innards" of an old Zero-Max transmission. They are fairly small and work as would be required for this application. JRW ------- Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 23:53:14 -0400 From: "Dave Audette" Subject: Re: Re: Logan sprocket box Mario: No, that adjustment is made at the other end of the linkage. If the linkage is set to the center of the pulley that it attaches to then the feed is on the lowest setting, as you move it out towards the rim of the puller the travel increases. Dave Worcester, Mass www.broncosaurus.net ------- Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2002 03:59:06 -0000 From: "Art Volz" Subject: Re: Logan sprocket box > The pawl seems to be engaging properly, it's just that the entire > assembly has a tendency to rotate. Dave -- It shouldn't rotate--it should rock--when you look at the parts drawing you'll see what I mean. Maybe you're missing some of the original parts and are currently equipped with a "field expedient". (BTW, the best 2 components of a lot of "Green Machine" field expedients were green-colored "100 mile-per-hour-tape" [a pre-curser of the similar "Duct Tape"] and WD-1 land-line commo wire: "wire it all together and then secure and strengthen it with tape: ga-ran-teed to stay together up to and including 100mph! :-) ) The linkage, if properly assembled and with all of its OEM pieces, keeps it from rotating--it should just rock back and forth, one tooth at a time. The orientation of the ratchet wheel pawl assembly sould be generally up and rotated a tad to the rear. Dave, don't make a spring--find one off-the-shelf that works; unless you know how to make springs, and can get the proper diameter of spring wire, it ain't going to work right...at least not for long. None of the manufacturer's of machinery made/makes their own springs: they bought/buy them from spring making specialist companies. Art (Houston) ------- Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2002 00:28:51 -0400 From: "Dave Audette" Subject: Re: Re: Logan sprocket box Art, I found the problem, the inner taper pin has sheared. I got is all apart and removed the pieces. I have to find a couple of taper pins to put it back together. I need a good parts list to be sure I have everything going back together right. I didn't see anything else that looked wrong so hopefully that's all it is. I need to contact Scott and see just what's available for literature on these. Dave Worcester, Mass www.broncosaurus.net ------- Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2002 04:22:12 -0000 From: "Art Volz" Subject: Re: Logan: Ratchet Housing & Feed Pawl Assembly > Where can I get me a copy of the Operator's Manual ? Dave--You're in luck! Scott (Logan Actuator, Chicago) has Operator Manuals and Parts Lists available for all of the Logan machine tools --except the Vertical Mill of which extremely few were ever made. Click onto this URL and it will take you to the secure order page at Logan Actuator: http://lathe.safeshopper.com/2/cat2.htm?760 Look for item "PL-40" at the reasonable cost (it's even bound in a binder) of $10. Now if you want the "full first class trip" also purchase the next item "PL-41" for a C-Note and get the entire set of dimensioned drawings for the Logan shaper. While you're there, filling your shopping basket, don't forget to get a Logan T-shirt (I'm ordering mine tomorrow B4 you guys strip the shelves bare) for $18. It will make a great Xmas gift to you, to hide wrapped 'neath Alte Tannenbaum, and marked: "From Santa". Maybe you could do the same thing with the drawing set too, except mark it: "Love you Dave, From Mrs. Claus". To order your Logan Xmas shirt click on: http://lathe.safeshopper.com/2/newitem.htm?760 . >> Until there's a little bit of resistance the ratchet will just spin in either direction but once the resistance is there it will ratchet correctly. That's just what the shaper is doing. If I stand there and hold the end of the feedshaft in my fingers while it's running there is enough resistance for the ratchet assembly to work but if I let go of it then it just turns freely in both directions. Problem is that even though I can identify the problem I can't see how to adjust it so that it works. << Good observation! On the left side of the saddle where the traversing screw exits you'll see two funny looking jam nuts and a washer. Loosen these nuts, screw the inner one in a bit to tighten it, hold it and jam the outer nut against it. Try your ratchet now. Be careful that you tighten it "just right" and "just enuf" else you'll shear the taper pin on the other end of the cross feed screw which secures the "thrust collar" to the feed screw. Sorta like holding a canary by the neck: too tight and the canary has done croaked; too loose and it's bye-bye canary. Art (Houston) ------- Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2002 00:18:13 -0400 From: "Dave Audette" Subject: Success Ahh, I finally got it. After playing with it for awhile everything is back together and working properly. I just made a few cuts running under power in each direction with no problems. Sure was nice to see it working right. The final problem was in the adjustment of the drive linkage. It was bending like an elbow and wasn't able to transfer the power effectively, it has a nut that's similar to a T-nut and is supposed to allow the linkage to adjust in length but if the nut isn't running in its slot, then the linkage bends the way that it was. With everything tensioned up correctly it works like a champ. It really is a balancing act though, too tight and it binds, too loose and it flexes. Tomorrow I'll run it for a bit more time and make sure I've got all the kinks out of it and spend a little time just enjoying it. Dave Worcester, Mass www.broncosaurus.net ------- Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2002 16:03:20 -0000 From: "Art Volz" Subject: Re: Grease for Bull Gear Tom--Thanx go to Scott Logan--he posted BOTH lube "files" first at his lathe group where I found them, purloined them, and posted them here also. (Have you found the other one yet: "One...two...three, here I come!) As to a grease on your Atlas bull gear (cast iron): don't use a grease as it is partially open system and swarf and dirt can get picked up by the grease and start grinding away at the teeth. You could, of course use grease, as long as you continually cleaned the old off and put on new, but that sounds like pure S$M pleasure. Have you looked at the two US Army TMs in "files"? Both--the SB-7 and the Rockford--are using the same lube that they use on their ram slideways. Since the Atlas doesn't have a pressurized lube system and it's lubrication system is a total loss type, I would recommend a waylube, such as Mobil Vactra No. 2 (ISO VG 68) which has the viscosity of SAE 20 (NON-detergerant). The "advantages" that Vactra No. 2 has over SAE 20 Non-Deterg is it's as hard to find (I've only found SAE 20, in Houston, at TSC (Tractor Supply Co.)), it costs about 3 times as much (TSC SAE 20 2 gallons x~xx about $12; Vactra x~xx about $15 per gallon, it has special additives that reduce "stick then slip" and aditives that help it stick to surfaces rather than just gravitate off. You could also use Wallie-Martz chain saw oil, which also resists gravity, in their one gallon size for about $2-- it's a little more viscous, though, and weighs in as a SAE 30. Your choice; your dime. I've been using chain saw lube on my Lewis. If you decide to be a cheapskate, like me, ask JRW for an empty jug of Vactra...and then just decant each jug of chain-saw lube into it as needed. That way "da boyz" whom you hang out with will think you're using the high price spread. (I remember as a kid, about 1945, that if you bought margarine it came colored white--so it wouldn't be mistaken for the higher priced butter spread--and with a small gelatin capsule of yellow dye that you could mix in to fool your quests at your next din-din party.) On the other hand, maybe a stick of "I can't believe it ain't butter!" might also be useable on your Atlas bull gear: "Yellow Petroleum". I've even heard it being used--when need arised--for the higher priced petroleum jelly spread...but, not here in Houston. Art (Da Houston greaser) ------- Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2002 16:38:00 -0000 From: "Art Volz" Subject: Re: What Makes a Vise a Shaper Vise? Succinctly, shaper vises are for shapers and milling vises are for mills...as provided by the original manufacturers for their specific machines. Take a look at the PICs of the 2 shaper vises on Ebay (a few messages previous to this one) while looking at a similar jaw size current Kurt milling vise, and the differences are quite apparent. A shaper vise, generally, has much less weight (my Lewis 7- inch vise weighs only 32 lbs--a Kurt in that jaw size would be like a Nipponese wrestler in comparison); the jaws are wider and with not as much depth; they tend to open wider; the adjusting screw is normally a full-length tension screw and NOT a compression screw; they're generally not as high overall. The weight is probably the biggest difference; appearance-wise it's the look of a wide jawed vise, with not very deep jaws, and with that exposed full-length screw that are the most noticeable visual give-aways. (Additionally, shaper vises are sinless and nebuh have any vice.) Of course, as shapers faded away, many of their former vises went onto the newly bought mills-- saved bunches of bucks. Rich C. related the story that many of the wide jawed vises for the larger shapers were picked up for a song and a dance at auctions to be used for sheet metal work. On the other hand, it's sort of like asking "What's the difference between chickens?" (A dude walked into the meat market atop C. Hill late on a Saturday afternoon. Looked in the case and saw one chicken. Asked the butcher to hold it up for him so he could look at it and then asked the butcher if he had any other chickens. The butcher, still grasping the chicken from the case, said "let me look" and went into the back room. After a short time he came back still grasping the SAME chicken. He held it up for view and asked "how's this one?" The customer looked at it for a moment and then said: "I'll take both of 'em".) Art ------- Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 04:06:00 -0000 From: "Art Volz" Subject: Re: Vise for 8" Logan In Metal_Shapersx~xxy..., "ptkeillor3" wrote: > I don't believe the shaper I'm picking up has a vise. I intend to > get started with the 4" import milling vise I bought a while back > (looks like a Kurt ripoff). I was noticing in the manual (thanks, > Scott) that the original vise looks more like a milling vise than > what you folks have been describing, anyway, moveable jaw toward > operator, screw in compression. Pete-- There are two original Logan shaper vises. The first vise, the one with the rounded edges, is the vise that came from the original Porter-Cable 7-nch shaper which became the Logan 7-inch Shaper and then, with some redesign, became the Logan 8-inch shaper. This, as you mention, has a compression screw. It is known as the "10Y-ES8 Vise Assembly". The later vise, and the one in the manual for the later, slightly redesigned and improved Logan 8-inch shaper, is the squared edged "8-10W Vise Assembly". This one is more typical of the "normal" shaper vise with the tension type screw and was the one used on the succeeding Brodhead-Garrett 8-inch shaper until production finally stopped. (Today's folks at Brodhead-Garrett have no institutional memory--they've been "reorganized" several times by bottom-liners--of ever having made a shaper...or "just what the heck is a shaper...you're not talking about what my wife wears when she ...are you?" Shaper vises are generally lighter and less massive (rigid) than similar jaw sized milling vises. A tension screw applies force directly between the 2 jaws to the work and has no tendency to buckle. A compression screw applying force to the moveable jaw, and indirectly to the front jaw via the frame, and thence to the work, has to compete with a tendency to buckle. A compression screw on a shaper vise, especially a less massive one probably than a comparable jaw-size milling vise, will have a much greater tendency to buckle...especially when hammered tight by an apprentice machinist. So, of the two original vises, the compression screw or the tension screw vise, the first one or the later one, which is the best? Either of them...both of them...if you can find either one. I know of folks who have looked literally for years for any Logan vise...and without success. There were only about a thousand and a half(?) Logan shapers made; how many are still extant is unknown, and of those still alive, how many still have a vise....??? Many shaper vises, for Logan shapers too, migrated to both milling machines and to sheet metal workers over the years. If you do use a milling type vise, one which may be heavier than a Logan vise (Hey Mike F.--rounded edge vise--and Joe W.--squared edge vise--how much do your respective vises with swivels weigh?) be sure to use your table support to preclude deflection of your cantilevered table. > What's a good vise for this shaper? Either of the two Logan vises would be superb. A vise from a Shape- Rite 8 would be super...but, if you find a 7-inch jaw vise for a Lewis-10...you can't have it! It's MINE! > I've also recently contacted a foundry nearby who says they do > onesies - twosies, and will use customer's patterns. What's a good > material for a vise if I decide to make one (using the shaper, of > course)? Grey iron, ductile, Meehanite? Thanks, again. Pete Keillor A quality grey CI would be very good and so would a quality ductile CI. I sorta doubt that your nearby foundry (where's "nearby" at?) is "Meehanite" certified, but if he is, where is it "nearby" to? Art (Houston) ------- Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 11:58:15 -0000 From: "ptkeillor3" Subject: Re: Vise for 8" Logan > CI. I sorta doubt that your nearby foundry (where's "nearby" at?) > is "Meehanite" certified, but if he is, where is it "nearby" to? > Art (Houston) Very informative, Art. Thanks. The foundry is Bernier Cast Metals in Saginaw MI. I can't recommend them yet, haven't tried them. I'm new to hobby metalworking. I got started when I moved up here (Midland) from Lake Jackson, south of you. My original reason for looking for a foundry is to make some faceplates for my lathe. If and when I try them out, I'll report back. Pete Keillor ------- Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 20:55:00 -0000 From: "Art Volz" Subject: Cast Iron Grades For Shaper Vise Pete--Let us know what you find out about the Bernier foundry; foundries which used to abound throughout our once industrialized America--the America of my youth--have virtually dissappeared: where once ubiquitous they are now as rare as hens teeth, and in their place, seemingly, we have swarms of the now ubiquitous polizei of the OSHA and EPA, abetted by their liberal de-industrialist supporters. Wonder how they missed Bernier...too cold for their ponderous fannies in Saginaw? (I'm thinking of buying a Mandarin language course set from the U.S. Army's Defense Language Institute; as a Green Machine retiree I ought to get it at a reduced cost. Wonder if it's being printed in Beijing/Peking/Peiping? :-) ) Reasonably priced "Red Mandarin" face plates are available from Grizzly. They are intended for wood lathes originally and have numerous replaceable threaded inserts for adapting to various spindle threads. I have one with two inserts: a 3/4-16TPI one for my olde Craftsman tubular bed wood lathe, and a larger one for my Logan/Monkey- Ward 10 x 24. They work fine and are cheap enuf although they have ZERO American manufacturing labor input. (All workers in a Democratic Republic shouldn't be working, but be on the dole of the ruling party, right?) But, on the other hand, it's hard to find a reasonably priced faceplate elsewhere; I've gone through all of my various tool catalogs and Grizzly is the only one where I remember finding one. Now back to the subject of cast irons. Click on this URL-- http://www.bowmanvillefoundry.com/grades.html --for information on various grades of CI and their technical characteristics. If I was casting a vise, I would probably select "80/55/6 Ductile CI" both for its more than adequate strength characteristics and that it is machineable as-cast. Althought the Austemepered Ductile Irons (ADI) are quite a bit stronger, they require post casting heat treatments to arrive at that state. As-cast Ductile 80/55/6 is the way to go. Can Bernier guarantee this grade? When you get ready to make patterns for your Logan vise repro, send me a back-channel eMail and we'll discuss it. Do you live in Saginaw? Art (Houston) ------- Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 16:39:39 -0000 From: "ptkeillor3" Subject: 8" Logan Belt Drive Questions I've been inspecting the belt drive on my old Logan. It needs new belts. The belts that are on there are a 4L profile. I can read the label on one, it's a 4L340, or 34" pitch circumference. The other, according to the manual, is 40". The reason I was inspecting the belts is that the belt drive was rattling like crazy. There is about 1/4"-3/8" end play in the variable speed pulley. I noticed the motor mount plate was not pulled down tight. Is there a certain amount of preload to get the variable speed mechanism to work correctly, ie., spread the pulley flanges apart? There are several differences on this older model from the manual. The belt adjustment bell crank is mounted on a cantilevered shaft. The lube point for the vari-speed shaft is an oil cup on a piece of copper tubing which sticks up by the jack shaft pulley. The motor mount adjustment consists of two all threads threaded through the back of the cabinet to bear on the top and bottom of the motor mount. Any input on setting the belt drive correctly is appreciated. Pete Keillor ------- Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 22:31:21 -0000 From: "Art Volz" Subject: Re: 8" Logan Belt Drive Questions - In Metal_Shapersx~xxy..., "ptkeillor3" wrote: > I've been inspecting the belt drive on my old Logan. It needs new > belts. The belts that are on there are a 4L profile. I can read the > label on one, it's a 4L340, or 34" pitch circumference. The other, > according to the manual, is 40". Pete-- What manual are you using: the first one for "-E8" parts or the later one that's obtainable from Logan Actuator? What is the serial number of your machine? If your's is a c.1950 Logan-8 contact me directly by back-channel. If yours is an older machine, the last vee-belt is listed as a "#169-ES8 x~xx 46" long" while the motor belt is a "#168-ES8 x~xx 34" long" Belt width is not stated--you'll have to measure your pulleys for width at their outside diameter. > The reason I was inspecting the belts is that the belt drive was > rattling like crazy. There is about 1/4"-3/8" end play in the > variable speed pulley. I noticed the motor mount plate was not > pulled down tight. Is there a certain amount of preload to get the > variable speed mechanism to work correctly, ie., spread the pulley > flanges apart? What do you mean by "end play"--is the "#170-ES8 variable speed control assembly" (what we would call the variable speed pulley) wobbling or rocking perpendicular to its internal shaft...or is it moving back and forth axially along its internal shaft? Either way-- there is no exploded view of this "assembly" since it was out-sourced- -but since it is an "assembly" it may be that the internal high speed bearings may need "attention". Joe W. (member of this board) had a noisy/rattling bearing problem internal to his "#1C-80170 speed control pully assembly", as this pulley was called on the later Logan- 8 shapers, and corrected it by disassembly, removal and replacement of the offending bearings. When you disassemble it beware of a stout spring that may come flying out--I have some Browning variable pitch pullies and when you release the retaining pressure on the internal spring all hell breaks loose if you're not careful...and that durn spring rockets to the moon! Talk to Joe W. before you take it apart-- he's done it and has survived. (If Joe doesn't answer you right away be patient as he is trying to reorganize his shop after a recent fire.) > There are several differences on this older model from the manual. > The belt adjustment bell crank is mounted on a cantilevered shaft. > The lube point for the vari-speed shaft is an oil cup on a piece of > copper tubing which sticks up by the jack shaft pulley. The motor > mount adjustment consists of two all threads threaded through the > back of the cabinet to bear on the top and bottom of the motor mount. Logan calls it a "timer arm" but it is really a "bell crank": the older machines have the shaft upon which it rotates fixed only on the left end; the newer machines had fixing brackets for this shaft on both ends. Apparently Logan engineers had problems with this shaft wobbling in the older version. Can you fashion a retaining bracket on the right side for an extended shaft? > Any input on setting the belt drive correctly is appreciated. > Pete Keillor Art (Houston) ------- Date: Mon, 02 Dec 2002 23:07:35 -0400 From: "James E. Baldock" Subject: Sheldon 12" Ram Guard? Well, I'm back at it with the Sheldon. The only thing that seems to be missing is the Ram Guard (PN 8002-2) I'm thinking I could weld one up from some half inch stock and maybe some 12ga. to keep it looking stock. I don't have the shaper together, so some of these questions would be easier for me if I did. The original is a casting, right? How long is it? It is open in the back? The shaper seems to be the one in the parts list (published here by Lew Best) , but I have only two mounting holes? is the one center tapped to adjust a drain angle? I have loaded a pix of mine under Baldock here. Any help will be greatly appreciated. Jim -------- Date: Tue, 3 Dec 2002 09:17:37 -0600 From: "Ray Ethridge" Subject: Re: Sheldon 12" Ram Guard? Jim: Glad to hear the Sheldon is getting some attention. I did not even know that was a separate piece until you mentioned it. Mine is 11" long, is open at the back and is cast. There really shouldn't be much to drain there, I believe the holes are probably just blind tapped into the casting. There is a socket head plug (like a set screw) in the bottom, I guess if anyone wanted to they could pull the plug. The hole tapers down toward the ram, though, I would think that anything that collected would run down inside the main casting. It would be a little tricky to cast, the top as it sits on the shaper is inward at the top compared to down below. That means it would have to be cored to do it properly. I am not sure how to get it off, I assume the mounting screws come into it from inside the main casting. It looks like yours are broken off. I bet the thing would run beautifully without it. Especially if it is backed into a corner like mine where no one could get without a lot of effort. I would get the thing back together and get it making chips, then worry about the fru-fru. You mentioned wanting it to look stock, I bet 99+% of the people that saw it in your shop would not even know there was supposed to be a part there. The handle you so expertly drew up is just sitting there waiting for me to make another try at the core for it. The main pattern is done, and I made a core box out of 2x4's but as soon as I put a coat of urethane on it the 2x4's warped. Ah, yes, I remember why I play with metals instead of wood now! I have some aluminum designated for the core box, as soon as I get some time I will get that project done. Ray Ethridge ------- Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 00:06:33 -0500 From: "Dave Audette" Subject: Machine oil I'm trying to diagnose a lack of oil in a 7" southbend. All of the Southbend literature calls for machine oil and gives a Saybolt viscosity. I've looked thru the lubrication charts in the files section and don't see anything that refers to a simple machine oil. I haven't found it in my Enco catalog either. I have way & spindle oil handy and don't mind ordering more to start in on the SB but I'm trying to figure out what the equivalent is. The problem is that the ram and bull gear don't seem to be getting too much oil. I can hear the pump and see it operate and after 30 min or so of operation there is *some* oil at those locations ( yes, I know the ram doesn't need more than a film but there isn't very much dribbling down on the Bull gear in comparison to 2 other machines I've seen ) but not very much. I've only worked with two other SB's but both seemed to have better oiling than this one does. I had planned to drain the existing oil and try changing it with something fresh and of a know viscosity first. The pump seems to work but just not all that well. I'm wondering if it's an oil problem, an obstruction in an oil line or a lack of pressure. Changing the oil should address the first issue, some pipe cleaners should clear up the second and if the problem persists then I need to consider the third. The army manual ( which seems to simply be a copy of the SB literature from what I can see ) shows a pressure adjustment but I'd like to save that one for last. Any suggestions ? Dave ------- Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 06:02:14 -0000 From: "Art Volz " Subject: Re: Machine oil "Dave Audette" wrote: > I'm trying to diagnose a lack of oil in a 7" southbend. Dave-- The Army TM at "Files" which most likely is very similar to the South Bend published manual, states to NOT use an automobile engine oil or any other oil containing a detergerant; it DOESN'T say NOT to use a "SAE Engine Oil Grade"--only not to use one with a detergerant. The viscosity given in the TM of 200 seconds x~xx 100F Saybolt (SUS) is the MID-range of useable viscosities of medium weight machine oils to use--after all, an automobile engine is a machine too. On the side access door to your crank and bull gear on your SB-7 you should have a data plate entitled "Oil Specification - Shaper Pump Oil". (Do you have a door...or maybe the one mounted on a plaque on my hallway wall originally was part of your machine???) Anyway, since a reuniifcation of my door with your machine would never occur, the FULL RANGE of useable oil viscosities is given as 150-240 seconds at 100F. Then, using the chart labeled "Viscosity Equivalents", from one of the two lube documents that I stole from Scott and posted in "Files" (I forget which one--I'm using a printout of the chart page), an equivalent "SAE Engine Oil Grade" of 20-20W is easily determined. A 2-gallon plastic jug of this SAE grade is available from TSC (Tractor Supply Company) for about $12 in NON-DETERGERANT formulation. Use this oil first, until you've gotten your lubrication system working properly, and then drain your resourvoir and refill with an equivalent viscosity (see chart again) ISO VG 46 waylube if you wish. The SAE 20 NON-DETERG should, however, be all you'll ever need. > The problem is that the ram and bull gear don't seem to be getting too much oil. Since you're not sure of the adequacy of delivered oil, BE SURE to manually lube also those parts that should receive pressurized lubrication until the pump delivers the lube properly. > I had planned to drain the existing oil and try changing it with something fresh and of a know viscosity first. Do that now. >The army manual ( which seems to simply be a copy of the SB literature from what I can see ) shows a pressure adjustment but I'd like to save that one for last. Why not do, what you want to do last, first? Turn the valves depicted on page 28 all the way open for the four presurized feed lines...and then back off as necessary. Make sure you re-read, and re-understand, all four of the lube instructional pages in the Army TM: pages 25 thru 28. Art (Houston) ------- Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 13:36:07 -0000 From: "matt_isserstedt " Subject: Re: Machine oil system Here are a couple of thoughts, in no order, if you have to get into the lube system... - Leak at pickup First I don't know much about the lube system, but if there is *any* air which gets entrained from the pickup to the pump you will lose oil flow rapidly. - Wear in gears I'm assuming a spur gear oil pump (automotive style). The end clearances make a big difference in pump performance, even .002" difference will produce a very noticeable difference in flow. I had a problem with some oil pump gears once which missed the "brush deburring" step and had sharp edges & corners, they produced significantly more flow until they rapidly cavitated because of the sharp edges. - Lack of restriction If you have a leak on the pressure side with little or no restriction compared to the other lube points you're interested in, then of course the max oil flow will go there (to the unwanted leak). - Positive drive Not likely considering you already have a little flow. But if there is some problem with the mechanical drive to the gearset then this could create problems. - A radical thought You might consider reverse flushing the ports with something similar to brake cleaner & its plastic straw (if accessible) to try to chemically cut any restrictive crud. This will of course remove lube and you'll need to supplement with hand lube as Art has mentioned previously until the pumper (hopefully) kicks back in. Good luck, keep us posted. -Matt ------- Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2002 03:25:35 -0000 From: "jpkull " Subject: Re: Machine oil Hi Dave, you can find info on machine oil viscosity at: http://www.mcmaster.com/ Search for "Machine Oil" Jim ------- Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2002 18:39:30 -0500 From: "Dave Audette" Subject: Re: Re: Atlas 7B, switch & wiring From: "Steve Uphill" >>>[SNIP] I have just discovered that the machine has been wired up in reverse, so its been driving backwards for heaven knows howlong, is this likely to have done any harm? <<< I've read some debate on the merits of running a machine backwards. Some think that it will stress previously unstressed areas and promote failure and others think that fresh unstressed areas will now be taking the strain and the lifetime of the parts will be extended. I don't know that anyone has resolved it. That being said I know of several shapers running backwards and had a 7" Rhodes that was also wired backwards and ran in reverse. The machine didn't seem to suffer any and I never had any problems with it. It's not what you'd want in a production environment but for a hobby machine it's probably just fine. Dave Worcester, Mass www.broncosaurus.net ------- Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2002 18:29:35 -0600 From: jrw Subject: Re: Re: Atlas 7B, switch & wiring Steve: Running a shaper drive backwards would be contrary to the main feature of a mechanical driven shaper, a slow power stroke with a rapid return stroke. J. R. Williams ------- Date: Fri, 27 Dec 2002 18:38:40 -0500 From: Al Subject: Informative Tidbit & Toolslide Question I recently decided to shape a set of soft jaws for my Wilton vise, using my 7" Southbend, my favorite machine tool. Having been away from it for a while, some reading jogged the old memory and in the process I came across this tidbit that I'd like to share with you. "An important point in shaper construction and operation may be emphasized here. The shaper manufacturer takes the utmost care to have the clapper block fit the box. The bearing surfaces are scraped to provide the best sliding fits with no shake, the axis of the hinge pin is exactly at right angles and consequently the block hinges freely in the box during the return stroke and is rigidly supported during the cutting stroke. The bearing surfaces should be wiped clean and a very little oil applied at least once a week. If the bearings are allowed to become dry or gummed with old oil, or if for any other reason the block does not always seat properly, trouble will surely result." Following this advice, I gave my clapper and box a good cleaning, and the bearing surfaces and hinge pin a double dose of oil. I noticed an anomaly in my downfeed, however, that I have a question about. This discovery came about from doing some vertical shaping. Prior to this I had only shaped and fed work horizontally on the machine. It seems that when the tool slide is run down about half way, there is unacceptable play and sideways movement in the slide (the ball crank turns very lightly almost on its own). Continuing past the half way point downward, there is increasing and extreme tightness (at the lower end the ball crank can hardly be turned at all). Several attempts to adjust the gib only resulted in removing the play for running the slide downward to about the half way point, then beyond that the crank can hardly be turned at all. Could this be due to a bend in the tool head screw, the gib itself, or maybe wear in the dovetails? How can I diagnose and correct this? It certainly limits my ability to shape vertically. Thanks in advance for any assistance. Al ------- Date: Sat, 28 Dec 2002 13:35:09 EST From: anthrhodesx~xxaol.com Subject: Re: Toolslide Question It appears to me you've already demonstrated that the problem is wear in the dovetails. You might additionally try backing off the gib screw so that the slide can easily be moved slightly from side to side, then feed the slide from one end of its travel to the other. If it feeds freely when not constrained by the close fit of the dovetails it suggests that the screw is not the problem. (I say suggests because it might be that when the slide is loose enough to lift slightly it might not reveal a slight misalignment or bend in the screw.) To be more decisive about the truth or otherwise of the dovetails you would need to measure both the base and the slide for consistency of width and parallelism of the dovetails. Anthony Berkeley, Calif. ------- Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2002 06:04:01 -0000 From: "metalchipster " Subject: Re: Shapers in Central Georgia >>>Terry, sounds like you have a serious case of the shaper bug! I may have some questions for you when I get my Rockford home, sounds like you have some experience there. The weather is supposed to be pretty bad here today so I will probably haul it in tomorrow. Ray Ethridge <<< Hello Ray, I'm no expert by any means but I have done a lot of playing with my shapers. I've taken all three of my shapers completely apart so I've got a lot of experience there. I'll be glad to answer any questions you may have. If your shaper has the automatic hydraulic toolslide (power downfeed) DO NOT take off the cover and attempt to remove the input shaft (clutch shaft) without being very, very careful. This compartment contains the clutch which is filled with small needle bearings that will fall out when you remove the input shaft and are very time-consuming to put back on the clutch. Also, do not let your hydraulic fluid get contaminated (especially with water). Or, better yet, drain the whole lot and replace it before you do anything else. When you get the hydraulic fluid drained and before refilling, be sure to put in new (or clean the old ones) intake screens and a new filter cartridge (I've got good sources for replacement of both screens and filters - I replaced all of mine with new stuff - I didn't want to take any chances with contamination). Be sure to clean out the sludge before refilling the tank. Also, before you drain the old fluid, check the fluid level sight glass for leaks. Repairing sight glass leaks is easiest when the tank is low or empty. Make sure you get all of the handles and cranks that go with the machine. They're hard to find (the safe ones with the clutches built in). Be careful with those crank shafts (screw shafts) that stick WAY OUT from the cross ways! They can be easily bent by a fork lift if you're not careful. Good luck with getting your big boy home. Terry ------- Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2002 17:52:29 -0600 From: "Ray Ethridge" Subject: Re: Re: Shapers in Central Georgia Thanks for the info. If you have taken yours apart you are WAY ahead of me! After seeing how much this sucker pulled on the chain hoist I am not sure I want to take it apart! I got the bigun home and unloaded this afternoon. You were right with your weights, it was 6100 pounds plus maybe three or four gallons of Diesel at the DOT scales. It does not have the power downfeed so I don't have to worry about the needle bearings. There were no handles of any kind with it, I will have to fabricate some. The toolpost that is on it is a solid bar, I will probably have to fabricate a lantern toolpost as well. I will definitely drain all the hydraulic fluid, replace it, and clean out the sludge. It appears it was overfilled, I lost quite a bit on the road and it is still above the mark on the external level vial, but I want to get it clean anyway. After I get into it I will want to replace the filters, can you tell me where you found the filters so I can do that? I meant where can you buy them, I have the manual that shows me where they are. It looks like the hydaulics are made by Vickers, maybe some standard ones from them? My serial number is 93 CM 91 so the year is obviously not imbedded in that, do you know how to find the year of manufacture? This was on a plate below the "ulic" in the "Hydraulic" nameplate, is that where you find your serial numbers? Thanks, Ray Ethridge ------- Date: Wed, 01 Jan 2003 17:43:41 -0000 From: "Art Volz " Subject: Re: Shapers in Central Georgia Ray--Does your clapper have the locking spring and screw on top of the clapper as I said I saw in the TM in a previous message here? Have you determined if it has the hydraulic piston behind the clapper? A serial number of "93 CM 91" (are you sure it's just "CM" or is it "CMD"?), when compared with the serial number list that I have, indicates that your Rockford was probably built in CY1954. My serial number list shows: CY1953: 88xxx90 CY1954: 94xxx70 The "xxx" is the model type of various possible types: OGN, PMO, CMD, RMH, etc. Maybe yours is just a two-letter model, where a max of 3 letters is possible. But, I think you found your serial number, and your Rockford was most likely manufactured in CY1954...much "longer in the clapper" than I previously suspected: didn't you tell me that it was supposed to be a CY 1976 machine? Art (Houston) ------- Date: Wed, 1 Jan 2003 12:24:04 -0600 From: "Ray Ethridge" Subject: Re: Re: Shapers in Central Georgia Art, I do not see the spring mechanism or the screw on top of the clapper. I do not think it has the hydraulic lift mechanism. I got the clapper to work after I pulled the locking screw out. MAN, that tool bar is heavy! I do not have a pipe wrench big enough to take it off the clapper, will have to figure out something else. There is a very large straight slotted plug behind the clapper, it must be just a plug for the hole where the hydraulic lifting mechanism would go if I had it. It looks like I just got the basic shaper, but with the universal table. The serial number is 93 HC 91, had brain fade between downstairs when I read it and upstairs when I typed it. I guess I am lucky to remember the 93 and 91 part that long. The guy had originally said '76, but when I picked it up he said it "might" be mid fifties. At any rate, the original scraping marks are still visible on the cross slide ways and probably on the others as I get them cleaned up. Age really doesn't make a lot of difference if it has light use! I bet it can still curl some pretty large chips. My reply to your question about the manual came back, my email s still not working flawlessly. The manual is an original Rockford issue, but when looking through it most eveything looks real familiar. Ray Ethridge ------- Date: Thu, 02 Jan 2003 01:43:08 -0000 From: "metalchipster " Subject: Re: Shapers in Central Georgia Your serial number of 93 HC 91 indicates your shaper was made in 1954. That is the new (improved) Rockford design. Vickers made the pump but they don't supply filters. Parts and manuals can be obtained from DeVlieg Bullard. They bought out Rockford: DeVlieg Bullard Services Group 1-800-248-8125 Depending on your shaper model, DeVlieg Bullard may not be the best place to get your filter replacement parts. After checking availability and price I found Flow Ezy Inc. was the best place to get filters and sump strainers. Flow Ezy is the manufacturer and will not sell to you directly. They will, however, give you the name of a distributor/retailer near you that you can order through. Filters & Strainers: Oil filter (round canister type): Flow Ezy model FL-12 (1/4'' inlet port). You may have to use two 1/4" to 1/8" brass reducers depending on your installed cannister connections. This canister filter is no longer available from DeVlieg Bullard. They now use the twist-on cartridge type filters used in automobiles. You can convert your shaper to use these type filters if you want. I decided to keep mine "original" since the original filter is available from Flow Ezy (and cheap). Sump strainers: if your old intake strainers are not usable, first contact DeVlieg Bullard for their price and availability. Then contact Flow Ezy to see if they're cheaper. You'll want 100 micron strainers. My older shaper took two model # 20-1-100 sump strainers. I don't remember (and didn't write down) my newer (1973) shaper's numbers. You will order the sump strainers like this: model 20-1-100 stands for 20 gpm flow with a 1" screw-on connector with a 100 micron screen size. First, determine your pump (mine is a Vickers V-135-20) and from that determine its gpm flow rate at its recommended RPM from 0 to 1,000 PSI. My older shaper's range was from 19.5 gpm x~xx 0 PSI to 18.0 gpm x~xx 1,000 PSI so I needed a 20 gpm sump strainer. I ended up getting all of my filters and strainers from Flow Ezy because they were cheaper and available right then. Flow Ezy, Inc. P.O. Box 1749 Ann Arbor, MI 48106 (734)665-8777 toll free 1-800-237-1165 http://www.flowezy.com Once you get the old hydraulic fluid out of your shaper you can then go to the Flow Ezy web site and compare what's available from them to what you need for your shaper. Good luck, Terry ------- Date: Wed, 1 Jan 2003 20:45:47 -0600 From: "Ray Ethridge" Subject: Re: Re: Shapers in Central Georgia Terry: Thanks for the wealth of info. I should have the hydraulic oil out tomorrow and will be looking for the filters and maybe the screens then. The old shaper really cleaned up well this afternoon, the ways still show the original frosting everywhere and the paint even looks pretty decent after getting after it with some simple green. If all goes well I may have it fired up by this weekend. It looks like my largest problem so far is this specialized tool holder that is attached to the clapper. This thing is apparently galled onto the mounting bolt, I can just barely turn it with a chain wrench and a four foot cheater (hanging my 210 pounds of dead weight on it!) but it spins the through bolt. The bolt is apparently a homemade job that has two pin holes for a pin type spanner, but no way could a pin spanner supply the torque I am having to put on it to turn it. I guess there is a possibility it is loctited together. I will try heat before I remove the clapper and start sawing it off. I will also have to go invest in some larger wrenches, this thing has lots of large nuts I don't have wrenches for. Thanks again, Ray Ethridge ------- Date: Thu, 02 Jan 2003 10:24:05 -0000 From: "knutketil " Subject: Elliot 10M question I am refurbishing a Elliot 10M shaper and have a problem removing the toolhead from the ram. It should be possible to rotate the toolhead but it appears to be completely stuck to the ram. Just behind the toolhead there is some kind of bolt - is that bolt used to hold the head ? This bolt can not be undone, it just rotates about half a turn and then stops. (Even with this bolt in the middle of the "loose" position the toolhead can not be moved.) Am I missing something important here, or is it just a question of applying enought WD40 and brute force ??? Rgds, Ketil ------- Date: Fri, 03 Jan 2003 07:33:02 +1300 From: Tom Subject: Re: Elliot 10M question Have you checked up inside the ram? Tom ------- Date: Mon, 06 Jan 2003 17:41:04 -0000 From: "gdabrowski " Subject: Porter Cable shaper drive I've managed to re-assemble my recently purchased PC shaper and make a couple parts to replace those that were missing. It came without a vise so I had to adapt an available 4 inch import to it via a beveled disc as the original. The feed ratchet had been altered or replaced which resulted with only one feed of .025 inch per stroke available. The newly made part returns the machine to the factory feed specifications. Works great. I'm back in shaper heaven again after selling my Atlas a bunch of years ago. During trial runs at higher stroke speeds I noticed a distinct odor of V belt. Any Porter-Cable owners in the group (or even Logans as they used the same drive system) have a similar experience? Looks like the motor belt is the culprit, as it shows much more abrasion on the sides than the belt to the machine. I'll be getting into troubleshooting this thing later this week and could use some opinions as to corrections. Sheaves are in-line more or less so belt angle is not likely an issue. Sheave bevel surfaces are free of junk and are smooth. ------- Date: Mon, 06 Jan 2003 16:30:21 -0600 From: jrw Subject: Re: Porter Cable shaper drive I would replace both belts as it is necessary to remove the cross shaft for the speed change unit. You may need to add more tension to the motor side which also effects the final drive belt. I changed out both the belts on my Logan and that improved the operation. The next thing to check is the side ways movement of the tension system. JRW ------- Date: Mon, 06 Jan 2003 21:38:10 -0000 From: "twolluver " Subject: Source for Variable Pitch Pulley I am new to this group but hope that with its wide membership someone can help me out. I have a Logan 8" shaper that uses a variable pitch pulley assembly with phenolic flanges as part of the speed control. The flanges have worn so that the interior surfaces are concave rather than straight. Because of this wear pattern the speed does not adjust uniformly. Does anyone know of a source for a surplus pulley. I was hoping someone may have a Logan shaper that they are parting out. I have checked with Logan Actuator and they have no such part available. Any advice will be appreciated Regards, Ron Leap ------- Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2003 16:29:53 -0600 From: "Mario L Vitale" Subject: Re: Source for Variable Pitch Pulley Ron, I'm afraid I can't help you with finding replacement parts, but, depending on how badly yours are worn, you might consider taking a clean up cut on the flage faces, providing, of course, there is enough stock thickness. For that matter, if you have the time and inclination, making a replacement set out of aluminum would be a good lathe project! Good luck, Mario ------- Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2003 18:05:46 -0600 From: Mike M Fendley Subject: Re: Source for Variable Pitch Pulley I've got a Logan 8" with the pulley you mention. I've found two such pulleys on different machines in scrap yards. One now resides on my drill press (got tired of changing belts) and the other was headed towards another drill press, but in the mean time I discovered VFD's. If you're still interested email me off line at: mikejanf (at) juno.com and I'll see if I can find it. It may have gone on another machine and is gone. Another option that I have seen great sucess with on machine tools is the variable speed pulley off an MTD riding lawn mower. Yeah, I know, sounds dumb . . . until you pay your $60 and get it. All steel with needle roller bearings. Same set up as the Logan plastic pulleys only it doesn't have the "laced fingers" and is a slightly larger diameter (about 1" larger). So if you're willing to do some slight mods, the Logan/MTD might be just the ticket! Mike in LeClaire, Iowa ------- Date: Tue, 07 Jan 2003 08:44:14 -0000 From: "metalchipster " Subject: Re: Shapers in Central Georgia "Ray Ethridge" wrote: > Mac, > I have only heard mine run once, but it did not seem all that loud. It reminded me of the hydraulics on a quiet electric fork lift combined with the sloshing noise of a washing machine. It will definitely be louder than the Hendey unless the Hendey has a knock or something, but I would be surprised if it made enough noise to be objectionable. It was very smooth, with no rocking or vibration at all. I hope to have the power run for the machine this week so I can give you more of an update. The first order of business is to try to figure out the wiring on the motor, it came wired 440 and I have to convert to 220. Preliminary checks have shown that although the motor plate clearly tells you how to hook the motor up for 220 and 440 by the numbers there is no numbering on the wires whatsoever! As far as the hydraulic seals blowing hydraulic fluid all over the place, there is minimal chance that will happen because all the hydraulics are inside the machine base which also acts as the hydraulic reservoir. They could have some pretty serious leaks and you would not know it unless you opened the cover. Well, I take that back, there is a hydraulic hose to the table feed mechanism that could leak, if that happens you would have a mess. Just check it out thoroughly and you shouldn't have a problem with leaks. > Good luck with your decision, that is a tough one! Ray Ethridge Ray: Here are two links to web pages that give valuable info on identifying motor types ("Y" or Delta) and how they are currently wired (440/220/"Y"/Delta, etc): Use this link to determine motor type and current wiring: http://www.internet-business.com/ppr/tutr-mot.htm#Single9y Use this link to re-wire from 440 to 220. This is especially useful for re-wiring when the leads are not marked. Using an ohmmeter you can determine what leads are what: http://www.usmotors.com/Service/faq9.htm As best I can remember, both of these links deal with 9-wire motors. I have used both of these links to identify motors and re-wire them from 440 to 220 on a lot of my machines. The techniques work well. Good luck, Terry ------- Date: Sat, 4 Jan 2003 07:17:16 -0600 From: "Ray Ethridge" Subject: Re: Re: Shapers in Central Georgia Terry, Thanks for the great links! I started disconnecting the leads on the shaper motor to start the ohmeter test, and found the numbers marked on the undersides of the lugs that were screwed together to make the connections. Once I found them on the shaper motor I went to the lathe, took one of the connections apart on it and the numbers were in the same place. All I gotta do is go by the numbers after all! Sometimes you get lucky. Now it is just a matter of running the wires and building the phase converter and I should be making chips. Ray Ethridge ------- Date: Tue, 07 Jan 2003 15:37:35 -0000 From: "matt_isserstedt " Subject: Phase Converter I do have some phase converter info here if you or others are interested ...I suspect that you will need a larger motor than my 3hp version. http://www.metalwebnews.com/howto/3ph-conv/3-phase.pdf PS: I am not sure of the size of this download. -Matt ------- Date: Tue, 07 Jan 2003 14:55:36 -0000 From: "matt_isserstedt " Subject: Got the Steptoe Working Last Night! I should mention this is a 14" Steptoe-Western machine, vintage unknown but I suspect a newer version. This was initially not a fun project, cutting a 5th junction box into my 3-phase system all piped in with 1/2" EMT around the shop. But after some grunting and some choice words, I had power where I needed it. The supplied NEMA size 0 motor starter already had a 220vac coil so I was all set, just strip the old power wire pigtail out and get ready. One interesting note, the General Electric instructions pasted to the inside of the enclosure cover on how to wire the motor starter and overloads had a revision date of 12/66, so I'm thinking that the shaper had to be built around that time or later. I had replaced the 3 rotted v-belts just after I moved the machine into the shop on Saturday from my storage unit. The belt guard is most impressive, a 3/16" thick steel deep drawn cover!!!! The old belts were A-53s and I replaced with brand new Goodyears. I got out my oil can and cycled the ram by hand using the motor pulley in slow motion, using Vactra #2 oil to saturate the running surface of the ram. Then, it was time for a trial by fire. I selected the lowest speed, and engaged the clutch. The shaper sprang to life, oil pressure came right up to 3psi per the manual, and I could hear oil spraying inside the column, and I moved my way up into the speed range. I was having a little problem on the ram return stroke and the clutch output shaft would visibly slow down. I think the v-belts are slipping a little, I was somewhat hesitant initially about putting on too much tension and cooking a bearing. However, the problem seemed to go away after the machine ran for a few minutes (oil warmed up?). I have yet to cut any metal, as the above "air-cutting" took me WAY past bedtime. But this is a task for tonight, get the cross-feed ratchet setup and make some chips! The tool downfeed is a little stiff, but I think the gibs might be mis-adjusted, as the middle setscrew was replaced with a longer socket head. The gears are a little noisy, but I think they're all straight-cut spur gears mounted on tapered rollers, so I'll take a little noise for some durability! So I'm grinning like a kid at Christmas; just itchin' to get back home later today for more "testing". I'm thinking of an oil & filter change. Oil might be the simpler problem, the nameplate specifies Mobil Vactra Oil Heavy Medium. Seems easy enough. Problem is, I already have Mobil DTE Heavy Medium and Mobil Vactra #2, all ISO 68 viscosity, but aren't exactly the same. The DTE appears to be a superior product based on the Mobil catalog as it is listed in "Premium Circulating and Hydraulic oils" while the Vactra Hvy/Med is listed under "Secondary Circulating and Hydraulic oils". The filter is just truely a moment of despair. I don't have any info on it and I feel like opening the housing might not ever get it sealed back up again and end up making things worse. Surely this is a purchased component rather than being built by Western Machine Tools. Anybody have any information or have replaced this part on their machine? Anyway, I hope to be curling some steel later tonight. ------- Date: Wed, 08 Jan 2003 05:03:25 -0000 From: "metalchipster " Subject: Re: Serial # and Shaper Testing/Learning "matt_isserstedt wrote: > OK, Art, my serial number is SW12X350. > I cut metal today, light slow cuts, then moving up to a heavier cut. > Still I was having problems where the ram would slow down on the > *return* stroke, almost to the point of stopping. Strange. Finally > I just happened to have my oil can handy and started oiling the > ramway with Vactra #2 as the ram was exposed on each stroke. Things > smoothed out almost instantly! Even as such I had oil pressure on the > gage. I opted to pour about half a gallon of DTE Heavy/Med down into > the casting, as I realized how low the sump had gotten in the filler > elbow, and this eventually overflowed when I shut off the machine > and oil started to drip back down. Oil which came out was a nasty > dark red-brown color as opposed to the clear golden initial > condition of the DTE....surface rust methinks. > > I opened the compression fittings for the four lube lines to the > ramway and clear lube came out all four under pressure, so it seems > like I'm getting lube, and the filter seems to be working. > > I also committed another boo-boo when I inadvertently reversed the > stroke by going over-center....divisions were obscured ...thus > feeding the table while in mid-cut. This stalled the clutch out > taking a 1/16" deep facing cut getting towards the center of a 2" > CRS round slug at 80 strokes/min. > > So, it was a learning experience. I don't think i damaged anything > permanently, but it was a little close. Amazing finish on a > light cut with a little Cool Tool 2 cutting oil.! > > I also found that I need some better leveling. The shaper is > rocking when the ram strokes, and I can modify this a little with a > steel setup wedge, so I need a better plan than > present....apparently the slab isn't very level. Before trying to any more chips with your Steptoe I would recommend checking out some things. In your earlier post you mentioned that your clutch output shaft was slowing down on the ram return stroke and that you suspected your new belts were slipping. You stated later that this problem went away after the machine warmed up. It is more likely that it was the clutch itself that was slipping and when the plates heated up and expanded that this reduced or eliminated the slippage. If it is indeed the clutch that is in need of adjustment you might damage it if you try to cut more chips before you make this adjustment. I would recommend that you check for this condition before cutting any serious chips. It wouldn't take much for a slipping clutch under load to wear away what linings remain. Also, since you are having to oil your ramways you might have some passageways that are stopped up. With a pressurized oil system you should not have to be oiling your ramways manually. You know you are getting oil pumped through your lines but its not getting to your ramways. I would give your passageways a thorough check. I doubt it would be rust but more likely sludge. Good luck, Terry ------- Date: Thu, 09 Jan 2003 07:21:26 -0000 From: "metalchipster " Subject: Re: Shapers in Central Georgia Mac: The automatic toolslide down feed is much more useful than the automatic table up feed. That is because the toolslide can be fed down automatically while the table is being fed horizontally automatically. When you use the automatic table up feed you lose the automatic table horizontal feed. Another disadvantage would be that when using the automatic table up feed your cut must always be a 90 degree vertical cut since the automatic horizontal movement of the table is disabled when using the automatic table up feed and the table only allows 90 degree movement. Of course you could always manually feed the table horizontally but it wouldn't be in sync with the ram. If your intended cut was to be a 90 degree vertical cut then YES you could use the automatic table up feed as an automatic work advancement up method (outcome would be the same as the automatic tool advancement down). The tool head on the Rockfords are made just like most other shapers. I don't see why you couldn't add an automatic down feed to it. You wouldn't want to do it like Rockford did it (with clutches and stuff) but you could do it like some others have done with their shapers. As an alternative, you could even tap into the hydraulic line that feeds the table movement. This would provide an easy way to synch your tool advance with the ram movement. You could also easily add an automatic clapper lifter this way (tapping into your table movement line). All you need extra (besides piping and connectors) is the little hydraulic piston/cylinder adapter that replaces the standard clapper screw. I don't know what it would cost to buy it but you could probably make one. I think that it would be a nice project. Terry ------- Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2003 22:11:16 -0600 From: "mac campshure" Subject: Re: Re: Shapers in Central Georgia Hi Terry: I do have the hydraulic clapper. It is nice that the table feeds up for 90 degree work; my Hendey has power down feed but I only have 12 inch capacity with the Hendey. O well I sure am not complaining, I am very pleased with both machines and am excited to get the Rockford going, that will be some time yet I'm afraid. If you see a Junker with the power down feed could be stripped off, please let me know. That would be my best bet. Thanks again for taking the time to answer my many ? regards mac ------- Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 10:31:40 -0000 From: "matt_isserstedt " Subject: Tales From the Crypt...Lube Oil Filter Yes fellows, a true horror story. I screwed up my courage and I had to take apart the oil filter on the S-W lube system. There's a petcock on the bottom so I thought I'd drain this down first. Hmm, that stuff looks a lot like water. Hmm, that stuff IS water. My estimate is that about 1/5 of the volume was filled with water. While this is indeed scary, at the same time the unit appears to have been doing its job. Next I loosened both compression fittings and the mounting bolts and drained this over my auto oil-drain pan. Inside, a cartridge oil filter, kind of like my old tractors, with "Replace P-48" punched into the porous metal "screen" enclosing the pleated paper. It seemed OK, smelly & oily, but a lot of white gunk came out of the bottom of the cup also. Not sure if this is a reaction between oil & water or some other crud built up and captured. Again, a good sign of the filter doing its job. So, now I'm searching for a replacement part. There are absolutely no manufacturer's markings on this...it looks like a standard commercial part, so I contacted Filter Supply America after a google search and I'm awaiting a reply. If anyone is interested, the element is 4" dia, 5" tall with a 3/4" hole thru the end-caps (larger internally) for the retainer bolt. More to come, I'm contacting Mobil Industrial lubes today to help me sort out the "Vactra Oil Heavy Medium" spec on the side plate today. Hope this comes in a 1 gallon size... -Matt [Atlanta] ------- Date: Sat, 11 Jan 2003 02:52:13 +0000 From: mariol.vitalex~xxatt.net Subject: Re: Tales From the Crypt...Lube Oil Filter Matt, I suspect the white stuff is Water/oil...just like what comes out of my air compresor tank when I remeber to drain it!?!?!? What's even funnier, the oil filter size and description sounds very much like the filter on my 1961 Morris Minor; maybe not quite 4" in diameter but close! Now that I think of it the oil filters on XK-140, XK150 Jags were the same style but a bit bigger. If you really get desparate, you might check with Moss Motors...Just don't put any Lucas electrics on it!!!! (you remember Joseph Lucas, the 'Prince of Darkness' don't you. Mario ------- Date: Sun, 12 Jan 2003 16:45:34 -0000 From: "Art Volz " Subject: Re: Phenolic gear ? > Thanks, Art. How can you tell? I'm acquiring a SB tomorrow and the > brief inspection I gave it the other night looked like the bull gear > was metal. Even if it is Phenolic, how often do they need replacing? > Al Messer Al--The best way to tell would be by using a magnet to see if the bull gear is magnetic or not. A phenolic gear is non-magnetic. It also may be colored--some folks with AMMCO's tell me that their phenolic gears are reddish, maybe the SB's are also of this color(??). The other "info/scuttle-butt" I've heard is that the SB phenolic bull gear has angled helical teeth, but that doesn't mean that a ferrous metal bull gear, which apparently SB also used, couldn't have either straight or helical teeth. I've posed the question on this board of trying to determine by serial number a pattern of when each type of bull gear was used, but VERY few group members posted anything...which is normal around here. I asked that question also of LeBlond, the current parts supplier for South Bend machines, and they essentially re-asked me the same question as to what the serial number was, etc. South Bend being virtually one of the still walking dead, the institutional knowldege is rapidly evaporating if it hasn't completely done so already, at their last known digs in the old Studebaker Engineering building...if they haven't already been evicted...again. (The biggest boss's young and good looking secretary is always the 2nd to the last to leave, and, if she's a "good" secretary she has absolutely NO institutional memory...or any memory storage assets upstairs at all. From Blonde to LeBlond...I imagine. :-) ) Buying an old machine is a risky business which the buyer must recognize as being HIS self-assumed risk. Nothing is ever the way it once once: new parts from LeBlonde, virtually one-offs on-demand should be guite expensive and expect them to be so. I have no idea what, if anything, was transferred to LeBlond other than "most" of the parts drawings: expect to pay through the nose for new parts...and especially so for new bull gears of whatever type. Be sure that you take with you a good flashlite with sufficient batteries to inspect EACH AND EVERY tooth on your bull gear. Missing or damaged teeth will be fun to fix especially if it's phenolic...and should be a point of dramatic downward price negotiation...as should any other deficiences found. Also take a squirt can of non-deterg lube oil with you--SB calls for SSU 200 x~xx 100F--I forget (where's that chart--it's in "Files") what viscosity that is, but a readily purchaseable can of 30SAE NON-DETERG motor oil at ACE Hardware should suffice for check-out purposes. Also take an extension cord just in case the seller "can't find it anywhere". (I have an over-filled huge toolbox in my van with tools that can open up virtually anything...from one of Ray's Bullard buddy bullies to a can of emergency rations Trappey Texas style beans. I've got a P-38 on my keychain for the beans too.) Run the machine. See if shafts wobble (= bent) and if you have any "doesn't look rights" or funny noises. What you buy is what you get once you're out the door. All that having been said, I myself would prefer a ferrous bull gear and, if I had my druthers, a helical toothed one. When you look it over make sure that you have downloaded, and have thoroughly read, the SB Army shaper manual in PDF format in "files" here. It contains more info and parts drawings/parts list that the original SB "How to Run a Metal Working Shaper" doesn't have. For instance, if you don't have the little round access plate on the left side of the shaper column, to the left and slightly lower than the larger cover access plate to the crank, your model doesn't have a lubrication pump. What that means is that besides all of the other manually oiled items, you now will be responsible for lubricating PROPERLY--before, DURING, and after operation--the ram slideways, the rocker arm shoe (slider and slideways in the crank), bull gear teeth, and various other critical bearings. Even if your shaper has a pump there is no insurance that it works properly until YOU are assured that it does. The pump has a mechanically lever-operated plunger, that makes a one-shot squirt each back-forth cycle of the crank lever and gawd knows what has accumulated both within the pump mechanism and the feed tubes over the years. Take a small cup and glass jar and decant a couple of cup loads into the glass jar. Then look at what's swirling around inside the jar sticking their tongues out at you. Betcha that stuff looks too good! You should have oil in the sump whether you have a pump or not: no oil take warning--it ain't been getting no lube! Also, the SB lube system doesn't have a filter that I can find on the parts drawings--used oil that finds its way back to the sump comes back the way it is and is recirculated without filtering: a BAD design for a pressurized lube system. Keep us posted...and I hope you land a "gud 'un" at a fair price. Art (Houston) ------- Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 15:23:17 -0000 From: "Mathiscoosbay " Subject: 1905-6(?) Cincinatti 20 QUESTION The newest date on the "Patents" brass plate on the R side of this old girl is Dec 12, 1905, states "other applications pending", Cincinatti Shaper Co.... I'm posting a couple of new pics in the Folder "Cinci 20". There's a stud with adjusting nuts that require a spanner wrench to move them on the back L side of the main body of the machine, holds a piece of angled metal that looks like it might be a gib. Could anyone tell me for sure what this adjustment "thingie" is for? It looks like there is not any other way to even attach gibs that I can see on this machine, no screws along the sides of the ram way or anywhere else. How do I know when the gibs are set right anyway, this ram is so heavy I think it will be difficult to tell if there's any play no matter what (well...that's assuming I ever get it broke loose again in the first place)? How would you guys go about cleaning the rust off the ways before attempting to slide the ram? Thought about light scraping but afraid I might do more harm than good. Appreciate any help or suggestions you might have. Thanks! Tim ------- Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 01:37:47 -0000 From: "ptkeillor3 " Subject: Logan 8" Lube Point for variable speed pulley Hi. I am replacing the original copper tube with the Gits cup that fed the variable speed pulley. It was damn near inaccessible sticking up (barely) between the v-belts, and I mangled the tubing while changing the belts. I've replaced it with a greasegun hose, which has the same 1/8" pipe thread and won't be bothered by the movement of the adjustment arm. I intend to drill a hole in either the back sheet metal or the cast iron base to fasten the other end of the hose. I'll fasten with an 1/8" pipe coupling and plug for now, and get a 1/8" mpt Gits later. Does anybody know how thick that base casting is? I'm leaning towards drilling through the back sheet metal because it's thinner and will make up about right when I stick the hose end through and screw on the coupling. Only thing is, I'll need an ell later for the Gits cup, and it'll stick out the back about an inch. Still, at least it'll get oiled regularly. Any input? Pete Keillor ------- Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 04:04:15 -0000 From: "ptkeillor3 " Subject: Re: Logan 8" Lube Point for variable speed pulley > Pete: My shaper manual shows a 'zerk' style grease fitting on the > back of the base housing for application of a light grease. A 'Gits" > style oil cup would apply too much oil to the pulley area and > also lubricate the belts. Joe Williams Mine is older, and shows the Gits. However, I went and grabbed the manual I got from Scott Logan, which is for the newer version, and you're right. As a matter of fact, it even looks like a grease gun hose. Grease makes a lot more sense. Can you think of any reason I shouldn't update? Thanks. Pete Keillor ------- Date: Sun, 26 Jan 2003 23:30:32 -0600 From: Mike M Fendley Subject: Re: Logan 8" Lube Point for variable speed pulley Pete: Check out the shaper pix in the shaper group under Logan. http://photos.groups.yahoo.com/group/metal_shapers/vwp?.dir=/Logan&.src=g r&.dnm=Logan+Custom+Motor+Mount.jpg&.view=t&.done=http%3a//photos.groups. yahoo.com/group/metal_shapers/lst%3f%26.dir=/Logan%26.src=gr%26.view=t This link shows a custom Logan motor mount very similar to the original cast iron one. I drew it up for a guy who needed to make a mount since his Logan 8 was minus the mount. The next link is a picture of my original mount. I put a "quick disconnect" on my motor wiring so it would be easier servicing the motor (capacitor and bearings) by just unplugging it instead of un and re - wiring it. Has saved me a lot of time on numerous occasions. http://photos.groups.yahoo.com/group/metal_shapers/vwp?.dir=/Logan&.src=g r&.dnm=MotorMountTxt.jpg&.view=t&.done=http%3a//photos.groups.yahoo.com/g roup/metal_shapers/lst%3f%26.dir=/Logan%26.src=gr%26.view=t Mike Fendley, LeClaire, Iowa ------- Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 10:37:51 -0600 From: jrw Subject: Re: Re: Logan 8" Lube Point for variable speed pulley Pete: I would go for the grease fitting and a low cost flexible hose solves the problem with fittings. easy on the grease application. I installed new belts on my system and plan on going back thru the system when time permits as there is a light 'rattle' when the unit is running. It may be I need to increase the 'base' tension on the motor belt. Joe Williams ------- Date: Fri, 07 Feb 2003 18:06:24 -0000 From: "jmartin957 " Subject: Rhodes Shaper I have owned a Rhodes No. 1 (7") shaper for some years. It is probably an older one, as the address on the body casting is Hartford, Conn. - and I believe that they were later bought by Ames and moved to Massachusetts. Did Ames ever change the address on the casting? Has an ancient GE 3/4 hp motor on an angle iron frame attached to the base. Drive by V belt to a jackshaft, V belt from that jackshaft to a second jackshaft, then a 3-step flat belt pulley from the second jackshaft to the machine. Jackshafts run in what appear to be homemade pillow blocks - Babbit-filled lengths of pipe welded to steel bases. Only change I made to the machine was to put a piece of 1/8" plate between the body and base castings, to keep oil from dripping down onto the shelves in the base. Mine did not have a drip tray. Guess maybe I'd better put a drain plug there before it gets too full. The table has three T-slots, whereas all the pictures I have seen show only two. The center slot is slightly larger than the others so it might not be original, but it looks it. The vise is original. Only complaint with it is that the shoulders on the nut, which serve to lock down the movable jaw, have rounded somewhat over the years. It looks like they have been built up with welding rod at least once. May have to make a new one one of these days. Can anyone tell me where the serial numbers are on these machines? I may have seen it when I had it apart for cleaning, but have forgotten where it is. Many of the parts are stamped with a 66 (or maybe it is a 99), but this I assume was just used to keep the parts together in the factory as it was being fitted. The steel plates on the top of the body that hold the ram down have brass strips on the underside (over the ram only, not as shims between the plates and the body). Are these original, or were they later fitted to compensate for wear? The pinion that drives the bull gear has always woried me a bit, as the teeth are much thinner than those on the bull gear. I do realize that teeth vary in shape depending on their number, and that on a small pinion they may have a significant undercut. Do you other owners also find the pinion teeth much smaller? I gather that some people have the slotter attachment. Am I right in assuming that these, and the tilting table and rotary table attachments, are next to impossible to find? John Martin Cumberland, Maine ------- Date: Sat, 08 Feb 2003 04:30:04 -0000 From: "mikehenryil " Subject: Re: Rhodes Shaper The S/N should be on RH side of the main body casting (as you are facing the shaper) in between a couple of the gib adjusting screws. Don't know if they changed raised address on the casting - mine has the same address but dates from right around the time that Ames bought Rhodes (S/N 2413). You can see a (poor) picture of mine here: http://member.newsguy.com/~mphenry/shop.htm and some more pics here: http://member.newsguy.com/~mphenry/web%20gallery/index.htm The latter shows a few close ups as well as one of the CI jackshaft bearings on mine. I think mine has an original vise and the table has only 2 T-slots. The jackshaft is driven by a Butler motor and a chain drive. There are no brass strips on mine and the ram seems reasonably tight, but I don't know if the brass you have is original to your shaper's vintage or added by a previous owner. The pinion and bull gears on mine appear to be the same width. There seem to bbe around 8-10 Rhodes owners on-line in the places I visit but I've only heard of a couple that have the slotting attachment and no one that has the tilting table or rotary table. I suspect that few of either were sold and that most of the latter ended up getting used or sold for other purposes. ------- Date: Sat, 08 Feb 2003 19:15:21 -0000 From: "jmartin957 " Subject: Re: Rhodes Shaper Mike: Mine is a bit different. The body casting says: NO 1 L. E. RHODES HARTFORD CONN On yours, the pivot for the actuating arm appears to be closer to the front of the body than the back. On mine, it is pretty much centered. The cast iron base on mine fits the body perfectly, so I am sure it is Rhodes. It has a large door in the right side, and ribs to support wooden shelves. The base does not have any of the ears for the motor or drive support, and I am guessing that it was designed to run from an overhead lineshaft. I could not find any serial number. By gib screws, I presume you mean the gibs for the ram. Nothing there on mine. Just the "66" stamped on various parts. Does your's have similar numbers? I noticed that yours has three small (screw?) holes on the right side of the body casting, just forward of the feed mechanism. Mine has two there. Always wondered what was meant to go there. John ------- Date: Sat, 08 Feb 2003 19:43:33 -0000 From: "remlapfluke " Subject: Re: Rhodes Shaper I might can shed some light on the gear teeth question. Over time the pinion gets much more wear than the bull gear. Its not uncommon to wear out a few pinions to one bull gear on mechanical devices. The individual teeth probably started out the same size on each gear. Thats the only way they can work together. If you can see wear on one side of each tooth of the pinion, you might flip that gear 180 degrees and wear on the other side. Hope that helps. Jeff ------- Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 03:41:25 -0000 From: "metalchipster " Subject: Re: Smith & Mills Nebel Machine Tool Company (owner of Smith & Mills Shapers, Inc) gave me these directions for finding the serial number: If you are standing in front of the shaper facing the toolhead, the serial number should be stamped on the flat spot facing you on the left-most of the column just above (or could be below) where the ram slides in the column dovetail. I never found the serial number on my shaper (25" Smith & Mills). I scraped all of the paint off the column faces and around the edges for two feet. Somebody just failed to stamp mine I guess. Operating & repair parts manuals are available ($50) at: Nebel Machine Tool Company & Smith & Mills Shapers, Inc. 3640 Llewellyn Cincinnati, OH 45223 (513) 681-4409 or (513) 541-4031 If you call, ask for Charlie. He is very knowledgeable about Smith & Mills shapers. They also have some parts for the shapers. They also have all of the original design blueprints for the shapers and can make parts that are out of stock or will sell you a copy of the blueprint so you can make your own. Nice folks. Good luck, Terry ------- Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2003 07:34:52 -0000 From: "Art Volz " Subject: Re: Time saved > > Yes Art, I can see no time is saved by the quick return. > > It is merely a matter of having the cutting stroke occur when the > > bull gear is applying the most leverage.RPM is the only thing that > > speeds things up. Carl > If there was no quick return, the shaper would spend half it's > time on the return stroke. By having a quick return mechanism, > it means that more than half, closer to 2/3s of the time in a > given cycle is devoted to cutting. This ratio differs between shapers. > It's not so much about time saved as increased productivity. Tom Tom--There is absolutely NO increase in productivity. For a crank system, one revolution of the crank (bull wheel) always equals one stroke. If the bull wheel of a straight 50%/50% slider crank shaper and the bull wheel of a 67%/33% crank arm "Quick Return" shaper are revolving at the same RPM and with the same ram stroke length, the metal removal rate, per cycle, will be EXACTLY the SAME for both shapers, no more and no less. What does happen, as I stated before, is that a more perfect, more constant speed, cutting action occurs when a "QR" shaper mechanism is used. It takes 17% of the time out of each cycle from the retract portion and adds it to the ram portion. This added time allows the center portion of the ramming velocity curve to be flattened or SLOWED DOWN. A more constant ramming velocity allows for a more uniform cutting speed and force thus improving the quality of the cutting action at the "cutting edge". No more...no less. David J. Gingery, in his 1981 classic "Build Your Own Metal Working Shop From Scrap--The Metal Shaper" (pp 63-64) stated it more succinctly: "THE FAST RETURN STROKE" "Because the lower pivot is closer to the center of the crank than the upper pivot, the return stroke is faster than the forward stroke. If you reverse the rotation of the crank the forward stroke will be faster." "In early years, the makers of shapers had a lot to say about their 'Fast Return Stroke' shapers. Since it must make both a forward and return stroke to each cycle, I fail to see how a fast return stroke would have any effect on the production capacity of the machine, even though the 'Hot Air' salesmen had a lot to say about it." "It's a fascinating action to study though, and makes it a lot more fun to demonstrate the machine. See if your friends can figure out why it does it." In Lindsay's 1988 re-publication of Fred H. Colvin's 1943 classic "Planing, Shaping & Slotting" (p. 78) there is a time- dispacement-velocity diagram for a "Quick Return" shaper which he apparently "borrowed" from Cincinnati. Here you can visually "see" how the time taken from the retract portion and given to the ram portion of one complete cycle flattens the ramming velocity curve by making it take LONGER to do. (BTW, Colvin's book is a good one to add to libraries if Lindsay is still printing it. The Lindsay stock number was 4988.) Art (Houston) ------- Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2003 21:50:06 +1300 From: Tom Subject: Re: Re: Time saved Like I said, the cutting stroke timewise, is longer, so it is self- evident that in effect, the cutting tool is being geared down, the benefit is that for the same revolution of the bull gear of a non- quick return shaper, the quick return shaper can take a "heavier" cut. That is where the increased productivity comes from. To equal the force on the non quick return shaper tool bit, would either require a reduction in speed or an increase of horsepower. Less productive.. Quoting Dave Gingery at me, cuts no ice, I prefer men who put their money where their mouths were: Whitworth, Sellers, Bement, Hulse, Tangye, Butler, Flather, Putnam etc. According to you & Dave Gingery, manufacturers have been wrong for close on 150 years? Yeah, right! Of all the engineering books I've consulted on the quick return mechanism, none have raised the "supposed anomaly" that you have. The thrust has been toward maximizing cutting time out of every minute, no reciprocating tool can come close to cutting availability of a rotating tool, thus the demise of the shaper.. As for flattening out the velocity curve, this really didn't happen until the adaptation of allowing the oscillating lever to float instead of being constrained at both the bottom pivot and the ram end. Some achieved by a ball & socket arrangement at the ram others by a link at either one end or the other. BTW, why would I wish for reprints, when I have the original editions? Tom ------- Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2003 22:47:36 +1300 From: giolw9r4vh001x~xxsneakemail.com Subject: Re: Re: Time saved Well actually it is not as simple as all that. Remember that the tool has a maximum cutting speed. Beyond a certain point it will overheat at the edge. This is not a linear function of speed, eg there is a speed it will survive and not much faster it will fail very quickly. So the quick return lets the tool spend more of the time actually cutting at something like the maximum rate, eg it is cutting 2/3 of the time (approx) plus the flatter curve means that it is able to go at a higher mean speed without exceeding the allowable peak. This will give higher productivity. To put it another way, if you have the quick return you can safely raise the motor speed above what you would use for a crank. I don't mean any massive increases of course, maybe 10 to 20% at best. But that sort of increase is worthwhile in mass production, Henry Ford would have been pleased to get it. Also I would guess that many shapers do not have enough different speeds to be able to always run at the optimum speed for metal removal and tip life. regards John ------- Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2003 13:19:35 -0000 From: "John Odom " Subject: Re: Time saved I have very much enjoyed this discussion. Of course the machine makes one stroke pre revolution of the bull gear, and the strokes per minute is the same as the bullgear RPM. So, FOR A GIVEN RPM there is no productivity increase. However, for a given maximum linear cutting speed, the quick return mechanism permits a higher RPM. It also provides greater force om the tool for a given RPM and horsepower. This allows deeper and/or wider cuts. Both of these factors, if properly taken advantage of, can contribute to increased productivity. I had a small fire in my house on the morning of Feb. and am still in a motel. I note plenty of opportunities for time saved and/or productivity increases on the part of the carpenters and painters. Staying in a Motel decreases ones own productivity as well. John Odom ------- Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2003 08:45:01 +1300 From: Tom Subject: Re: Re: Time saved Apparently I haven't made myself clear enough. Quick return crank shapers, the benefit of: We have two 3 hp shapers, one with quick return and one without. The quick return shaper has a ratio of cutting to return stroke, of 3 : 1. The configuration of both shapers is taken as the same. The non-quick return shaper has equal cutting & return strokes so is only cutting for 30 seconds in every minute, so that's 3hp x 1/2 available to remove material = 1.5 hp The quick return shaper has a cutting stroke of 45 seconds in every minute, so that's 3hp x 3/4 available to remove material = 2.25 hp. Disregarding the fact that no shaper cuts the full length of a set stroke, the comparison shows that the quick return shaper can supply more horsepower to the toolbit than a non quick return shaper at the same rpm. More horsepower at the cut, means a greater material removal per minute. Something that's been evident in shaper manufacture ever since Joseph Whitworth invented his quick return action. Tom ------- Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2003 21:40:28 -0000 From: "remlapfluke " Subject: Im running a 50/50 shaper now All this discussion about a quick return vs 50/50 shaper is interesting. My shaper is of the old 50/50 type. Equal time in both directions. Its an American Tool Works 20" 2 speed trans. 4 steps on the old flat belt cone pulley. B