------------------------------------------------------------------ This is just one of some 80 files about machining and metalworking and useful workshop subjects that can be read at: http://www.janellestudio.com/metal/index.html ------------------------------------------------------------------ This file contains fragments of the history of some metal shaper manufacturers, as well as some interesting stories by metal shaper owners. (And lots of good stuff that did not fit in the other metal shaper files.) If you got to this file directly from my HOME PAGE, return there by using your browser's back button. BUT if you came to this file as the result of a web search engine, see many additional files on my home page Machining and Metalworking at Home http://www.janellestudio.com/metal/index.html SAFETY WARNING BEWARE: DO NOT ASSUME that any subject matter or procedure or process is safe or correct or appropriate just because it was mentioned in a news/user group or was included in these files or on this site or on any other web site or was published in a magazine or book or video. Working with metals and machinery and chemicals and electrical equipment is inherently dangerous. Wear safety devices and clothing as appropriate. Remove watches, rings, and jewellery -- and secure or remove loose clothing -- before operating any machine. Read, understand and follow the latest operating procedures and safety instructions provided by the manufacturer of your machine or tool or product. If you do not have those most recent official instructions, acquire a copy through the manufacturer before operating or using their product. Where the company no longer exists, use the appropriate news or user group to locate an official copy. Be careful -- original instructions may not meet current safety standards. Updated safety information and operating instructions may also be available through a local club, a local professional in the trade, a local business, or an appropriate government agency. In every case, use your common sense before beginning or taking the next step; and do not proceed if you have any questions or doubts about any procedure, or the safety of any procedure. Follow all laws and codes, and employ certified or licenced professionals as required by those laws or codes. Hazardous tasks beyond your competence or expertise should also be contracted to professionals. Let's be really careful out there. (c) Copyright 2003 - 2013 Machining and Metalworking at Home The form of the collected work in this text file (including editing, additions, and notes) is copyrighted and this file is not to be reproduced by any means, including electronic, without written permission except for strictly personal use. ========================================================================== Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2002 14:00:48 -0800 (PST) From: Art Volz Subject: History of the Ohio Machine Tool Co. Just got a "heads-up" jab-in-the-abs msg from Joe W. on subject subject: History of the Ohio Machine Tool Co., the folks that made the Swift-Ohio shapers. I'm trying to get the author, Owen McGee, who cared enuf to do the research and report on it, to repost his article directly here. (When all of the American manufacturing companies are but legends...will anyone still care? What will the lawyers then feast on...cake?) Thanx Owen...and thanx Joe.... Art (Houston) --- jrw wrote: > I thought you might be interested in this > information for your archives. Joe

I own an "Ohio" shaper, built in Kenton, Ohio. This week I had some extra time and I was near Kenton, so I did some legwork to see what I could find out about the Ohio Machine Tool Company.

The local library had a 1933 book of city history, which gave me some info on the early roots of the company. From there I went to the Historical Museum, which has no curator now and is in complete disarray. They sent me to the local Genealogical Society, where I met a group of local long-timers who had a lot of memories, and who set me up with several old-timers who I interviewed by phone. I also drove by the old plant and talked to one of its occupants.

The company was founded in 1890 by two men: Mr. Silk and Mr. Smith. It was originally known as the Smith and Silk Tool Company. At some point Smith bought out Silk. In 1895 the name was changed to the Ohio Machine Tool Company. A large building was erected, which burned in 1903 and was replaced by a new structure which still stands. Sometime before WWII, the company was purchased by a Mr. Swift, owner of the Swift Welder Company, and became the Swift-Ohio company. Operations were ended in the mid-1960's.

The best info I got was from Paul Sloan, who hired on there in 1928 and retired from Ohio Machine Tool in 1960. Mr. Sloan worked "in the office" in some indeterminate capacity. He will be 92 years old on Jan 17th next year and is more lucid than I am.

Ohio Machine Tool primarily produced shapers and planers, and at one time produced a milling machine. They also manufactured machinery for other machine tool builders. They built the first DeVlieg mills. They built the Ryerson HBM for a company in Chicago. They built woodworking machinery for a company in Holland MI. They built some drilling machinery for the Defiance Machine Company of Defiance Ohio (another long-gone company). They built a batch of lathes for the American Tool Works for export to Europe which, due to the outbreak of WWII, were never shipped, and were returned, converted to English graduated machines, and sold domestically. During WWII shaper production peaked at 10 machines per month, including 16, 20, 24 inch regular shapers and 32 inch "Super Dreadnaught" shapers. After WWII the Ohio Machine Tool attempted to get into the special machine market. One machine was built for DeVilbiss spray equipment in Toledo. It was a disaster and the company lost a "ton" of money. During its final years the company experimented with "electrical controls" on some machines (unable to determine what machines this was done on). The Ohio Machine Tool Company ceased operations in the mid-60's.

Their building is now occupied by a rigger, Lowe Rigging Co. A social service charity occupies part of the offices. I was unable to contact Lowe Rigging, but several people told me that there's nothing of the Ohio Machine Tool Company left in there.

No one knows what happened to all the company's documentation, such as records, blueprints, and sales material. It is probably all lost, except a few brochures tucked away in attics around town. Just recently, Paul Sloan sent the last brochure he had to his son in Texas.

And that is what I found about the Ohio Machine Tool Company. Owen McGee -- Friday, 1 November 2002 ------- Date: Fri, 01 Nov 2002 22:57:52 -0000 From: "hotrod867068" Subject: Re: History of the Ohio Machine Tool Co. Isn't it fun to dig into history?? Let me add to the history lesson. I have just found out that a company in IL is supplying at least some of the replacement parts for the Ohio Shaper!! I would guess they have picked up the records, prints etc. Normally I wouldn't worry with something like this. I'd just find another shaper to use for a few hundred bucks. This SWIFT OHIO is hands down the sweetest operating shaper I have ever used. In a word EXCELLENT!!! Automation International Incorporated 1020 Bahls Street, Danville, Illinois 61832 PH: 217-446-9500 Fax: 217-446-6855 ------- Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 19:36:37 -0500 From: Richard Danzey Subject: Re: Danz's Gray Planer Art Volz wrote: > Danz-- > Thanx for the PICs of the planer and the shop. Gosh, I'd like a shop > like that WITH all that overhead shafting. Do you remember if there > were any "turn the corner" mechanisms overhead? > Contact me by back-channel. I have some Gray PICs and info AND info > on your two flat belt drive system to include the forward/reverse > belt shifting mechanism. Also have some table feed speed info. > T'inking about table feeds...from the other end, the cutting end. I > suspect that the machine's design constraints included thoughts of > minimizing slide wear between the table and its slideways. > Lubrication oils, available at the turn of the century, were nowhere > as good as they are today and neither were the abilities to make > slideways as well as can be done today. The machine was also > desinged to use carbon-steel cutters which cut at much lower speeds, > even when lubricated, than High Speed Steel. The planer, however, > was designed to cut primarily iron and steel workpieces. From a 1937 > text originally copyrighted in 1922: "In many shops the planer is > used altogether on the same class of materials and has but one speed > forward, with a quicker return. However, four-speed countershafts > and variators are not uncommon. They usually give cutting speeds of > around 20, 30, 40, and 50 feet per minute, and 100 feet per minute on > return." If the Gray were mine, I would probably use HSS cutters but > at carbon steel speeds...and at the low end speed of 20FPM--and VERY > well lubricated with a medium/heavy Mobile waylube. If Mario wanted > to come over for an afternoon's inveiglement, his especiale lube > would probably be Vodka reinforced Chianti...and ice cold Lone > Star 'necks for Ray, Lew and I. Then we'd put Mario on the planer > table, pop the caps on a couple two-three more 'necks, and watch > Mario just swish and swoosh...swish and swoosh.... :-) > > Richard Danzey wrote: > > > Hi, Ray. Thanks for your reply. My planer was made in Cincinnati, > > > perhaps in the late 1800s or early 1900s, purchased new and used in a > > > machine shop blacksmith shop in rural Indiana until about 1972 or > > > thereabouts, by descendants of the original owner. When the last > > > descendant decided to sell the property the entire shop was auctioned > > > off piece by piece. No one wanted to haul the planer away. I got it > > > for free, but paid $400 to get it hauled to my shop about 10 miles > > > away. I've yet to set it up, and run it. I only have theoriginal > > > driven pulleys, but not the driving pulley, nor any idea of the speed > > > of the ancient motor that drove it. Which is why I asked. It has a rack > > > and pinion, though, not a screw drive for the table. > > > I took some pics of the shop before the auction. Attached are a couple > > > of the nicer ones I got. Hope that I'm not breaking any rules sending > > > them along... danz Art, thanks for your offer of information. There was one central shaft roughly down the center of the shop on the long dimension. No corner changing mechanisms. Can't say I even know what one would look like. The old motor was mounted just below the ceiling, on one side of the shop and a belt went overhead to the lineshaft near the center. There were instances where there were countershfts that went back overhead to more conveniently drive a machine near a wall. I heard about the planer shortly after moving to the area, in the early '70s, but really didn't even know what they looked like or how they worked. I always wanted to see it but only coincidentally finally snuck a look through the dirty old windows about the time the owners were getting ready for the auction. My real interest, at the time, was in the line shafting. After I got permission to photograph the shop, I saw how massive the line shaft installation was and realized I could not deal with it myself, even if I bought it cheap. I was on hand the day of the auction but left before the festivities began--my bad hip just wouldn't let me stay. I was surprised to find the planer still in place later. It would have been demolished with the old building if I hadn't requested the owner give it to me. I ended up getting the demolition contractor to move it for me--as I mentioned-- early in the day when the shop and a house were obliterated. One reason I intend to run the planer one day by flat belt from above is the direction changing mechanism for the table. It is marverlously elegant in a clunky old cast iron sort of way, and I could determine no way to accomplish the same thing with more modern means. I'll need to buy two belts, and either a jackshaft, or perhaps a great long 'pulley' to hang on the end of the motor shaft to make it 'go'. I believe it is only the one speed machine, and I'll probably set it up for that. I won't mind using more modern lube, but I don't plan to earn a living with it so speed is less important than fun. See another fun-fact in a message soon to follow... danz ------- Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 19:44:50 -0500 From: Richard Danzey Subject: Re: Gray Planer (Was Re: Shaper surface finish) Al, I've never been much interested in steam engines, but listen to this: Before the clunky old 3 phase 220v motor was installed, the lineshaft was run by an internal combustion engine that ran outside. I never heard of this before, but it ran on acetylene made on site in an acetylene generator. There was an old paper drum in the shop with Union Carbide on the side that I suspect might have been for the acetylene generator, though I never asked about it at the time. I've heard of using acetylene for lamps on early automobiles, and, I think, miner's lamps, but I never heard of powering an engine with acetylene--but why not? A wonderful museum it would have/could have been. danz ------- Date: Thu, 05 Dec 2002 20:06:21 +1300 From: Tom Subject: Re: Years of manufacture for Mitts & Merrill Shapers cincinnati16 wrote: > Does any one know the approximate year Gould & Eberhardt G&E) > became Mitts & Merrill? > How long did Mitts & Merrill continue to make shapers? > If I can come up with a S/N can anyone give me the approximate > year of manufacture? Regards Jon Lewis 1960 seems to be about the time. they seem to peter out in 1977. I have the serial numbers of that period. Tom ------- Date: Mon, 09 Dec 2002 08:31:35 -0600 From: "Scott S. Logan" Subject: Re: Re: New file uploaded to Metal_Shapers bclark64 wrote: >It's interesting how much the logan looks like the porter cable I have. There is a very good reason for that. Logan Engineering Co. bought the shaper line from Porter Cable in the early 1950's. Scott S. Logan, Vice President Tel +1 (773) 736-7500 Logan Actuator Co. Fax +1 (773) 736-6854 4956 N Elston Ave Email sslx~xxlathe.com Chicago IL 60630-1782 Web http://www.lathe.com USA ------- Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2002 13:44:14 EST From: anthrhodesx~xxaol.com Subject: Re: An Atlas Timeline: Richard Stines 10 Dec 2002, Art Volz in Metal_Shapersx~xxyahoogroups.com writes: << Click on the URL to see an interesting historical timeline constructed by Richard Stines on Atlas Press and Clausing-International: http://members.aol.com/plalbrecht2/atlashistory.htm >> Also look at this URL for more Atlas & other stuff +++: http://members.aol.com/plalbrecht2/AtlasMillShaper.htm Remember Atlas manuals at: http://www.clausing-international.com and Jolene Olds, Service Center: joldsx~xxclausing-international.com . Very interesting. One *major* omission is no mention of the Atlas 12" lathe. It would be very interesting if dates of production of specific model numbers of Atlas and Craftsman machines (as well as the other brands mentioned) could be inserted into the time line. A list of standard equipment and specs per model could also be added, maybe as clickable links. And dates when certain accessories and attachments were available. My primary interest is in the Atlas and Atlas-built Craftsman equipment but the information would also be good for the other product lines held by the corporation. This could be the start of some serious industrial archaeology. ------- Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 22:43:17 -0000 From: "dshulbert7 " Subject: Smith & Mills Shaper Division Ran across this little tidbit of info when I typed "shapers metal" in a Thomas Register search, just to see what remained. This info may have allready been posted somewhere, but here it is anyways: Smith & Mills Shaper Division 3640-T Llewellyn Cincinnati, OH 45223 Phone (513) 541-4031 FAX (513)541-7120 Product Discription: 16" through 36" Company Discription: Replacement Parts Parent Company: Nebel Machine Tool Co. Thats about all the info there was, hope someone can use it. -------- Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2002 07:37:21 -0000 From: "dshulbert7 " Subject: Steptoe,Hendey,Smith & Mills, G & E, etc. - Models/Weights/HP/Prices HENDEY Wt. W/Motor Drive HP & RPM 16 H.D. 4800 3 to 5 1200/1800 (?) 20 H.D. 5900 5 to 7.5 " 24 H.D. 8400 7.5 to 10 " 20 Stan. 4800 3 to 5 " 24 Stan. 5900 5 to 7.5 " 28 Stan. 8400 7.5 to 10 " STEPTOE Wt. W/O Motor HP & RPM (Setup for motor drive) 14 S.G. 2900 3 to 5 1800 14 B.G. 3000 " " 16 S.G. 3550 5 to 7.5 " 16 B.G. 3650 " " 20 S.G. 4000 " " 20 B.G. 4150 " " 24 B.G. 5700 7.5 to 10 " G & E Wt. W/O Motor HP & RPM Box/Univ. Table 14 Plain Tool Rm. 3025/3300 3 to 5 1800 16 " " " 3075/3300 " " 16 Tool Room 3250/3475 " " 16 Industrial 4250/4575 5 " -$5,310. (1955) 16-20" Industrial 4300/4575 " " -$5,310. " 20 Industrial 4525/4800 " " 20-24" Industrial 4575/4800 " " 24 Industrial 7100/7600 7.5 to 10 " 28 " 7150/7600 " " 32 " 7225/7650 " " 32 Heavy Duty 8150/8650 10 to 15 " 36 Heavy Duty 8375/8850 " " SMITH & MILLS Wt. W/Motor HP & RPM Box/Univ. Table 16 Heavy 4200/4500 3 to 5 1800? 20 STD 4300/4600 " " -$6,100 (1956) 5 HP/1800 $212., Tool Lifter $200, Vert. feed to tool head $325 20 Heavy 5100/5450 5 to 7.5 " 24 STD 5200/5550 " " 25 Heavy 6200/6600 7.5 to 10 " 28 " 6300/6700 " 32 " 8300/8750 10 " 36 " 8400/8850 10 " SHELDON VERNON Wt. W/O Motor HP & RPM 12" 1550 1.5 ? -$2,766 (1955) INVICTA (British) Wt. HP & RPM 18" 2296 3 ? -$2,375 (1955) This info was copied from manf. sales brochures (Except the Hendey info.) I found in a file folder labled "Shapers" in a file cabinet of a bankrupt company being auctioned off. Don't know if they ever bought a shaper, they didn't have one at the time of the auction. The prices where hand written in the brochures by a salesman or maybe a phone quote. The S & M prices where from a detailed price quote letter addressed to the companies owner. ------- Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2002 23:04:43 -0000 From: "Art Volz " Subject: Re: Photos of B6050 Kevin--Just went back thru your posted PICs admiring your B6050. Pete's comments about quality & price are relevant. Your shaper looks like a much higher quality of machine tool and one intended for an industrial market. The majority of mainland Chinese tools that I see...even at the Houstex tool show...are those intended to be cheap and for a low-budget user. Consequently they are not nearly as well made. To be able to make and maintain the equipment required by the Red Army requires machinery, and workers, capable of achieving the level of precision required. And manually operated non-CNC machinery, of high quality, is still used there because of the much lower cost of "doing business" to include lower labor costs, NO trial lawyer induced "liability" and insurance costs, no OSHA or EPA costs, and very little "lunch-box" costs. They don't really have to worry too much about ENRON style management abuse either--when these type of criminals are caught, they rapidly conduct spectacular trials at a sports arena, followed by an immediate ending out back, with a bill for the cost of the expended cartridges sent to the family of the deceased. As their costs rise, and their ability to produce high technology based CNC machine tools (Bridgeport has/had a CNC technology "transfer" facility deep within the Red Dragon), watch out, because then our "ride" quickens as we will have to really struggle to match their new and lessened costs. Then watch the rapidly diminishing manufacturing infrastructure within the US diminish even more rapidly. Over 2,000,000 US manufacturing jobs were lost in the USA last year alone...and the year before...and the year before...as more and more US companies die outright or just quit. Can this possibly be a trend? Is there any writing on the wall? I know what's wrong with the economy...and how to fix it.... Could we possibly interest any of the powers that be in a new national program: "REMANUFACTURING OF AMERICA" ? Bridgeports are now made by Hardinge at Hardinge's factory and not at the former Bridgeport factories. What do you think happened to the workers...and to their pensions? Last spring, if I remember correctly, the last US manufacturer of cold-heading machinery closed in Ohio. What do you think happened to the workers? And now...ever hear of Cincinnati Milling Machine, that became Cincinnati Milacron, that became, just a couple of years ago, Cincinnati Machine? Hear no more as they've been "reorganized" by merging with Lamb Technicon forming a new company called "UNOVA Manufacturing Technologies" and will be headquartered in Detroit along with the "Production of Cincinnati Machine-brand horizontal machining centers...." (Note that in the quote that Cininnati Machine is now only a brand name.) The only "Cincinnati" that will stay in Cincinnati is a "...new aerospace technology center...." Fare well Cincinnati...and farewell...Cincinnati. Does anyone see this same trend that I surely only imagine?. When large manufacturing companies no longer are, who pays all the accumulated pensions? (I know. We do...We The People.) Where do the disposed workers, many highly skilled, now work? (I know: Walmart & Burgler King, right?) And when all of the aging engineers are gone...boy are they aging and going gone...who will design the stuff we need to manufacture anything? I know. About a year ago (it's no longer in their current ads) a Giddings and Lewis ad bragged that their machines were built in the USA...BUT, designed by German engineers. Giddings and Lewis is just a brand name owned by the colossal German conglomerate Thyssen-Krupp. And then there is South Bend Lathe, a little player for years and much littler after the workers'union at this employee-owed company struck against THEMSELVES in the '80's. Unreal...as is the relentless, and ever increasing in volume, massive...and criminal...de-industrialization of America. Yes, criminal! As for the education of the required number of new engineers...forget it! I attended my daughter's graduation 2 years ago from the University of Texas-Austin as an Electrical Engineer. (She also passed, first time, the extremely difficult all-day national Engineer- in-Training examination, the first phase of acquiring a Professional Engineer license.) The graduation ceremonies were held in an internal basketball court, with all of the graduates, of all the engineering specialties, barely filling one-quarter of the court. This was a JUNE graduation for a very large major university. I suspect, but didn't attend so I don't know for sure, that the similar June graduation ceremonies for the law school graduates was much larger. America NEEDS more trial lawyers...desperately! When Japan's Minister of Education rebuilt the university educational system in Japan after the end of WWII, he had extremely limited funds. His mission was to produce those who would rebuild the shattered industrial manufacturing base of Japan's new economy. He did it by offering tuition funding ONLY to those students who intended to study engineering and science. No one else. When Fidel and his flicking-chicken-licked-bones-in-da-corner- amigos "liberated" Cuba, he also "liberated" all the lawyers from their jobs. In his Marxist society lawyers weren't needed. One of these jobless refugees taught me Spanish at the University of Notre Dame in the early '60's. (Gosh he had a bad accent.) This is the only real accomplishment of Castro's totalitarian regime. A couple of years ago I read that there were more lawyers in Orange County, California, than in all of Japan with a population relatively half of ours. Lots of engineers and scientists though. I know how to fix it. I know what's broke and what still needs to be ruthlessly "broken". Do those who have the RESPOSIBILITY to fix it ...do they have the intestinal fortitude--GUTS--to do what is necessary...and in time? Tempus fugit. Rome is no longer...ROMA. Art (Signing off in Houston on a Sunday Afternoon...8 days after Pearl Harbor, and 2 days before my 61st. If only the Texans had been winning...and I had been watching that game on the tube...instead....) ------- Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 02:56:48 -0000 From: "Art Volz " Subject: Re: J-Line AKA Logan-8 "jlwright72601 <"jlwrightx~xxa...>" wrote: > Hello, I am new to your group and have a question. I have a J-Line > shaper with a ram travel of 8 inches. It is in very nice condition > except for the feed arm is missing. The ratchet is there but the arm > and eccentric cam are gone. My terminology is probably wrong but > maybe you can figure out what I'm talking about. Can parts still be > bought and if not does someone have pictures I can look at so I can > make the parts I need. The Southbend shaper shown at the home page is > really nice, by the way. Jim Jim-- Your J-Line was made exactly the same as the late model Logan-8's, which preceeded it, were made except for the ID tags: your J-Line was marketed by Brodhead-Garrett after they acquired the rights from Logan. Brodhead-Garrett, still extant and still in Ohio although no longer in Cleveland, currently has absolutely NO institutional knowledge that they ever sold shapers. They've been through several reorganizations since their J-Line days. A copy of a late model Logan's operators and parts manual can be obtained from Scott Logan at http://www.loganact.com as can a complete set of re-drawn dimensioned "Blue"-prints. The drawings in the parts manual, however, are clear and are in a isometric format: they're scalable (after being blown up to size) along lines parallel to their x, y, and z isometric axis. Fortunately, you have a complete ratchet box assembly. The parts that you're missing should be easy for you to duplicate, depending of course, on the sufficiency of machine tools that you have available for use. After you have acquired the manual from Scott, I'm willing to discuss with you some simplifications that you may wish to do in making the parts that you need. Art (Houston) ------- Date: Sat, 21 Dec 2002 10:49:03 -0000 From: "Art Volz " Subject: Rhodes/Ames Shaper Serial #'s & DOB--ATTN: Mike Hwenry --- In Metal_Shapersx~xxyahoogroups.com, "mikehenryil" wrote: > From some old reference material that I've misplaced I seem to > recall that Rhodes was sold to Ames around the early 1930's and that > the serial numbers went up to around 3500 or so. Mike, near Chicago Mike-- I've just obtained a c. 1988 list of serial numbers for shapers and slotters manufactured by Ames Precision Machine Works, 5270 Geddes Rd., Ann Arbor, MI, 48105. No mention of Rhodes. The list starts in 1929 with serial number 2501 and ends in 1957 with serial number 2962 with the comment: "NOTE: Models discontinued. Replacement parts no longer available." Anyone having a Rhodes shaper with serial numbers within listed range please post your serial number and I'll give you its Date Of Birth. Art (Houston) ------- Date: Sat, 21 Dec 2002 22:01:53 -0000 From: "Art Volz " Subject: Rhodes (Ames) Serial Numbers Mike--My scanner doesn't work and the list isn't too long so I just typed it into this message. To access this message use "search box" here with keyword "Rhodes" or "Serial Numbers": Information c.1988: Ames Precision Machine Works (Rhodes) 5270 Geddes Road Ann Arbor, Michigan 48105 Shapers & Slotters-- 1929--2501 1930--2538 1931--2553 1932--2555 1933--2556 1934--2566 1935--2593 1936--2611 1937--2625 1938--2633 1939--2639 1940--2662 1941--2705 1942--2755 1943--2787 1944--2805 1945--2840 1946--2903 1947--2928 1948--2940 1949--2944 1950--2946 1951--2954 1952--2956 1953--2958 1954--2959 1955--2960 1956--2961 1957--2962 NOTE: Models discontinued. Replacement parts no longer available. (As of 1988.) Those WWII days were really heady times. :-) Must have been a whirlwind of activity...at least to the guys casting iron. And then...just a trickle. Wonder if #2962 was the last of the WWII era green castings that had fully seasoned? I can hear the foreman shout to "Olde Ralph": "Ralph...we've got one. Go out and move one of them Rhodes rusty pigs inside and shave it down until you find some shiney metal...." Except for the little parts which they probably batched and shelved in the '40's, the major castings had to have been tweaked while machined: "made to fit"--interchangeabilty NOT required. Interesting what can be theorized about their production sans a production line. "Yep! 1952 was a big'un...made two this year!" Art (Houston) ------- Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2002 08:49:23 +1300 From: Tom Subject: Re: Rhodes Shaper Serial #2402 Harvey Noel wrote: > Does anyone have or know of an earlier serial number than 2402? > I wonder if I have the second one made. Sorry no cigar, your style of shaper had been in production for about 13 years prior to yours being built. Yours is c1924. Tom -------- Date: Sat, 21 Dec 2002 17:17:33 -0500 (EST) From: volzmechatronicx~xxyahoo.com Subject: Email to Colleague from Thomas Register OrigDate: 12/21/2002 Reply to: Art Volz Email: volzmechatronicx~xxyahoo.com Art Volz sends the following message: Ames Precision (Rhodes) now Electro-Arc Mfg. at same Ann Arbor address. Click to see search results or paste this link [NO BREAKS IN LINK] into your browser: http://www.thomasregister.com/TCdcopro.cgi?script_name=TCdcopro.cgi&search_ type=keyword&search_string=Ames%20precision%20machine%20&seq=2&pn= &az=21148002&st=&pdm=&colleague=Y (www93 email_col.cgi) ------- Date: Sat, 21 Dec 2002 22:42:43 -0000 From: "Art Volz " Subject: Ames (Rhodes) now: Electro-Arc Mfg. Co. Mike--Did a Thomas Register search and found that Ames Precision is now the Ames Division of Electro Arc Mfg. Co., but is STILL at their Geddes Road address in Ann Arbor. The division now only makes their portable Rockwell hardness tester, but since Ames still exists and at the same location I bet they have some institutional memory--plans, blueprints, documents, a tooter from the 1948 New Year's party--maybe even the ol' gal (now in tennis shoes) who tooted her tooter when it needed tooting at that party. She might know where everything still is. Thomas Register stated that Ames Div. started in 1947, has 10-19 employees, and assets of $1-5 million. Their URL is: http://www.electroarc.com . Ann Arbor is accross Indiana for you, a million miles for me, but only a hop, skip, and a jump from Southgate, the April home of NAMES. Art (Houston) ------- Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2002 04:32:48 -0000 From: "metalchipster " Subject: Re: Shapers in Central Georgia Bibb Machinery will deal. Robert Truett is the man to see. The shapers you mentioned below have been in storage (non-heated) for many years. So, you can expect much rust. The 25" Smith & Mills shaper mentioned is no longer for sale by Bibb Machinery. I bought it in 2001. It has the "This machine conforms to the War Department's..." label on it so I know it is a 1940's model. It still works great and is VERY heavy duty. Weighs about 9,000 lbs. It's tool holder (multi-position type) is 17 inches long and holds 5/8" bits. It's shank is 1-1/2" x 2" and won't fit my Rockfords. Their tool holders look very small next to the Smith & Mill's. I bought a 24" Rockford hydraulic shaper from Bibb Machinery earlier this year (1973 model). It was never put on the sales floor. I bought it as soon as it arrived. It is mint. It was in a nuclear power facility and was never used except for the engineers playing around with it. The ways still have all of the original flaking on them. It has automatic hydraulic toolslide and automatic hydraulic tool lifter. The only thing it doesn't have is a universal table. But, I solved that problem. Two months ago I found a 20" Rockford hydraulic with automatic hydraulic toolslide, automatic hydraulic tool lifter and universal table. It cost me $76 on ebay. It cost me another $150 to go pick it up in Tennessee (I live in Georgia). Even though it is a 1947 (or 1948) model it works perfectly. The 24" and the 20" Rockfords are identical in size except that the ram on the 20" is shorter. The 24" weighs 6,000 lbs. (manual says 5,500 but rigger said 6,000 according to DOT scales) and the 20" weighs 5,500 lbs. (again, according to DOT scales going and coming from pickup destination). All three shapers have 7.5 horsepower motors. The Rockfords are by far the noisiest. The whine of those big hydraulic pumps and the clanking of the forward and reverse valves really make some racket. However, with the Smith & Mills, it is as quiet as a mouse until it hits the steel then all you hear are sizzling sounds as the steel is peeled away in huge strips. I enjoy my shapers more than the other pieces of equipment in my little shop. I guess I'm kinda like some of you guys on this group: Hooked on shapers. They're simple to set up, easy to use and just plain fun. Terry ------- Date: Wed, 08 Jan 2003 16:55:53 -0000 From: "Art Volz " Subject: RE: Western-Steptoe Shaper Serial Numbers In Metal_Shapersx~xxyahoogroups.com, "matt_isserstedt wrote: > OK, Art, my serial number is SW12X350. Matt-- Don't have Steptoe-Western "SW" info--see 2nd note below on possible still living source. Without me having to go back in the messages, is yours a 12-inch? A possible "decoding" of your serial number is: "S"-teptoe "W"-estern 12-inch Number 350, but I don't have a date of manufacture matching list for these type of sedrial numbers. My info on the Steptoe is most likely incomplete and is circa CY1988. Here's an extract in re Western as it pertains to Steptoe shapers: Western Machine Tool Works 255 West Ninth St. Holland, Michigan 49423 Machine Type: Shapers Trade Name: Steptoe 1935...........A-40284-TR 1941..........AB-40701-TB 1942..........EB-40833-TB 1943..........EB-41170-TB 1944..........BB-41506-TD 1947..........EB-41914-TBS NOTE 1: AB = 14 inch size; BB = 16 inch size; EB = 24 inch size. NOTE 2: Serial Numbers unavailable at press time (c. 1988) for...Steptoe Shapers,...Steptoe-Western 12 inch and 15 inch Shapers. Contact Mr. R. C. Bosch for info. Phone (616) 392-2382. Who knows...you just might be able to find Mr. Bosch by doing a Michigan area search...you might be even able to "dig up" some information...about him...if he ain't already departed. :-) Art (Houston) ------- Date: Wed, 08 Jan 2003 17:43:19 -0000 From: "Art Volz " Subject: Re: Western-Steptoe Shaper Serial Numbers Matt--Just did a preliminary "Yahoo! People Search" for "Bosch" in the Holland, MI, area and located a minimum of 56 individuals so named. One of them probably has his/hers father's memorabilia stashed away somewhere...and maybe with Steptoe shaper data. (I have, in a upstairs back bedroom closet, 8 large boxes crammed full of my dad's stuff from over 45 years as a Chief Design Engineer for Bendix Aviation in South Bend. One of these days...after I acquire a good hi-rez scanner and haven't yet croaked myself...I'll start scanning onto CD-ROMs stuff that hasn't seen the light of day in twenty years, and most of which exists nowhere else. When he was still alive, people used to call him from all over wanting to know this or that as he was the only one who still knew: there are parts and drawing data on fuel control systems for WWII B17 engines; there are B&W glossies of "meat ball" aircraft carbuertors taken from "Zeroes" and with notes from Dad to upper management saying that "It's a copy of one of our 193X Stromberg model...." A veritable treasure trove. I wonder how many of these "Bogue's Rogues"-ers are still about?) As they say...here and about: "Good Fishing!" :-) Art (Houston) ------- Date: Wed, 08 Jan 2003 20:35:21 -0000 From: "Art Volz " Subject: Re: Western-Steptoe Shaper Serial Numbers > By your interpretation above, I'm inclined to think that its a 12" > also, and I'll start calling that. The one confounding bit of > evidence is the "stroke plate" on the ram which has graduations up > to 14". This is definitely a factory piece and not somebody's > careful addition. However, maybe this is where the conundrum > between actual stroke and the "machineable cube size" gets sorted > out. Maybe it can machine a 12" cube with a 14" ram stroke. Matt--It may also be that they just happened to have some 14-inch "stroke length plates" on hand and, since they'd work on a smaller shaper too, they just used them to save money. Lawrd knows that a dime saved then was a dollar earned. The Studebaker Lark pickup truck was made-up of parts designed for other previously designed & manufactured vehicles. Saved bundles in design costs and in tooling costs, and also got the truck to market one heck of a lot faster. Wasn't a bad truck either & the Lark grill was purdy. Maybe some of the former Stude employees migrated North to "help out" at Western? Wonder if Western had big windows looking out over a New York Central train station: at Stude's in SB they were always massed at the windows taking both scheduled and un-scheduled "union" breaks. > Ohh. How confusing. I tried contacting a guy I met once while > living in Michigan, John Bowditch, who is an industrial historian > and works at Henry Ford Museum/Greenfield Village. See article > below, he attended the cleanout of the plant in 1999, but no luck yet. > http://www.hollandsentinel.com/stories/061899/new_toolworksplant.html Very interesting article. Appears they "shuttered the shop" in 1980. And the wood floors...did they keep pigs and chickens underneath? You might wish to contact the Holland, MI, museum (if there is one), the "morgue" at the Holland newspaper, and also see if there is any kind of historical society in Holland. What you're really looking for are people who might still be in the know...or can point their finger at someone who does. I found out info (posted in messages) on an obscure South Bend, IN, shaper thru their local historical society last year. Art (Houston) ------- Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2003 20:00:29 -0000 From: "Art Volz " Subject: Re: Good Shape-Rite...Bad Trip Merril--Sounds as if you had a harrowing trip...the sand in the back of your rig and your reasonable speed demonstrates that you've had much experience with deplorable driving conditions. Here in Houston, every day is one of "deplorable driving conditions" caused not by the weather, but by stupidity, rage, impatience, and "It's MY turn!". I saw a young punk yesterday afternoon...right next to my driver's door...get impatient with oncoming traffic "becuz he wanna'to turn & now"...he turned and was T-boned immediately. The driving conditions were perfect. I have visually seen so many accidents happen right before my eyes here in Houston. Totally unbelievable. --- In Metal_Shapersx~xxyahoogroups.com, "Merril Mabon" wrote: > Dick Scheff, you had the same observations I did from the photos. Photo imaging improvements, as you suggested Merril, provided much clearer photos. (Both eyes open, simultaneously, did the trick.) In the side view photo, I can now discern that the 3 wrenches immediately behind the table are c.mid-1937 Sears & Roebucks "Craftsman" brand, and that the much darker front-on photo has 2 Ninjas hiding in the shadows immediately below the 8-inch Lodge fabbed door--similar to the "skillet" door on Joe W.'s refurbished Logan. (Joe's didn't come with Ninja guardians, though...you just gotta guard those doors...as you'll never know where I will be. :-)) > This is basically a bench model on a factory stand. Outside of a hole > in the top of the stand to allow the acme screw that raises and > lowers the table to enter, a work bench with a 3/4" drilled hole > would serve the same purpose. It appears that all models of the Shape-Rite 8 had, as an option, separate bases allowing the user to use it either on a bench of his own choosing or with the factory base. I do not know if Shape-Rite cast part numbers onto the various pieces but if they did, the door on the base should be Part No. 206. What is the Part No. of your base: 205, 205-1, or 205A? The door was round and not as pretty a > casting as the model "B" pictures. What are the letters/numbers cast on the outside face of your round door? Is there a Part No. 19, 19-1, or 19A...perhaps cast on the inside? I did not see a model number on > this shaper besides the 8" designation on the round door. Maybe this > is an older version- the missing Model A?? Might be the original model, the slightly modified "-1" or an "A". It is not a "B" but may have had, depending on when it was finished, some "B" parts. Many of the "Model B" shapers had Part No. 2C "Bearing Cap for Intermediate Shaft" installed. Also check the Part No. for the "Universal Table Saddle"--is it 171, 171-1, or 171A-- and the "Bevel Gear for the Vertical Table Screw"--is it 49, 49-1, or 49A? Apparently a major product modification took place at either the introduction of the Model A and/or at the introduction of the Model B. I suspect that these changes were mainly in the transmission gears in order to make a major product quality differentiation between the Shape-Rite 8-inch size shapers and the similarily sized shapers of other manufacturers. The Model B shaper was designed as a shaper capable of producing an exceptionally high degree of accuracy and surface finish. Besides its extra vibration-dampening mass, for this size of shaper, it had all of the gears, except for the bull gear, running in oil. Additionally, the bull gear and its pinion were right hand helical gears, while the other two helical drive gears were left-hand. This feature gave a silent herringbone gear effect that added to the shaper's extra smoothness. Most shapers' gears can be "seen" in the surface finish achieved--a sort of stop and go as the gear teeth stop and then try to catch up--the Shape-Rite was capable of producing an extremely fine finish. The use of anti-friction bearings, throughout the shaper, for all gears and drive shaft, added additional smoothness. The ram slideways were extra large and extra long to keep the delections minimized. This is one of the true "Queens" of the 8-inch shaper class. All things considered, it > appears to be in excellent shape. What paint is left on appears > original and shows no sloppy set-ups like vise cuts etc. Can you color-match the original paint to anything commonly available today? (Questions like this seem to be eternally asked on this board, and will be for the Shape-Rite too. Answered now it will allow for a simpler answer later on of "Go search: Shape-Rite.") Extra tool > holder was inside and all the wrenches. It operated with hardly a > whisper and I'm anxious to make chips with it, What kind of tool holders did you get...any of the "turret head" adjustable Armstrong type? Any marked "Shape-Rite"? The one depicted in the lantern tool post appeared to be a lathe type and one for HSS, not carbide, tool bits. but I might refinish > it while it is separated from the base. I'll come up with something > between Basic Black and a Beatnick's VW Bus. I've done enuff Ferguson > Grey to last me awhile. A Beatnick's Rainbow "We are the world" VW Bus paint scheme would be truely both "exquisite" and a-door-able! :-) I'll get some pictures while the shaper is > off its stand. I separated them because I have a cap on the truck and > it is half full of frozen sand for winter traction. > Art, I decided to keep the door, but if you want a duplicate, take > the handle off an 8" Wagner fry pan and you'll be pretty close. Merril--my heart will throb forever if only a fleeting glance of your door is provided--and my love and longing for it will be forever eternally sustained. Woe is I! Apparently only 8-inch size "Shape-Rite" branded shapers were ever made. The Model B was manufactured by Sales Service Machine Tool Co., 2426 University Avenue, St. Paul 4, Minnesota. They were "made" for Havir Manufacturing Co., at "Factory No. 1 of Sales Service Machine Tool Co." Apparently Havir also "made" straight sided presses. Their last known address was Havir Manufacturing Co., 1728 Terrace Dr., St. Paul, Minnesota, 55113. As of 1988 they were no longer in business. A cursory search of the web brings up "pointers" of "torts- negligence" lawsuits--I do not know whether their demise was hastened by gluttonous trial lawyers or not. I also do not know whether they used the same, or a similar, serial numbering system as they used on their presses. Supposedly the press numbering system was: Example: 47C76 = Built in 1947, where the first two digits of the Serial Number indicated the year of manufacture. Art (Woeful in Houston & Eternally Spurned: "A door...a door...my kingdom for a door!") ------- Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2003 21:59:31 -0000 From: "Merril Mabon " Subject: RE: Good Shape-Rite I just copied your Reply Art cause I wanted a soft bound edition of that book you just wrote! I really enjoyed it. But Damn- I can't figure how I missed the Ninjas! That Craftsman wrench had a crack in it so I took it back to Sears and they gave me a new one. I love their lifetime warrantee. Today its been up to 15 on the thermometer. Thats hotter than ussual but still a little chilly to be handling cold cast iron, so the new toy is still in the truck. I've got to pick it up with my three point boom and thats on the back of a diesel that decided long ago it liked starting when its a little warmer. I'm saving all these numbers so you can give me an answer as to whether this shaper was an AM or PM product. I hope it wasn't built on Monday. The paint I see on this is the same color Delta Rockwell and many other machine makers have used. I have always used Ferguson Tractor paint. Often if you want to brush touch up a scratch or nick and use this paint the touch up will not show, it is that alike. Its available at TSC and other farm stores. Make sure you get the Ferguson Grey and not Massey Ferguson grey because the latter is much lighter. For anyone spraying these machinery enamels which is what I do, the reducing agent[thinner]is common paint thinner. Do not use a lacquer or auto enamel thinner. I also typed in "Havir" and got the same results, Legal lingo. Excuse me if any of the group Shaperholics are also members of the bar, but I long to return to the day's when the only lawyer on TV was Perry Mason.....EH? Merril ------- Date: Sun, 16 Feb 2003 19:27:15 +1300 From: giolw9r4vh001x~xxsneakemail.com Subject: Re: New Acquisition It is a while since I have been in here. Life caught up with me for a bit...I got a great new job, moved 400 miles, found a house and then moved my family here to Auckland. This has also involved moving my workshop, some of which is still in the hands of movers who managed to misplace about half a truck load. Including my steam engine project. No brownie points for them. So you will appreciate why I haven't been around much since October. Anyway yesterday I went for a drive around the machinery suppliers looking for a trolley to hang the hoist from the RSJ that runs across my new workshop...around 1500 square feet by the way. Got that OK at the first place, then looked at a couple of others. The last one visited deals in both new and second hand stuff, and out in the yard my wife spotted a shaper, saying" you don't want that one" in view of its shall we say slightly rusty appearance. She hadn't even really recognised what it was at that stage...and rapidly found out how wrong she could be. It was admittedly very dirty, with surface rust on all the bits that should be shiny, but it did not look to have gone deep and appeared pretty sound. It is an Alba 4S, which I think they would call a 16 inch shaper. Still has the original nameplates in good condition, although it will want a coat of paint. Plus a lovely big vice. A quick bargaining session with the guy soon secured it for me. He was mostly interested in the vice, which he thought he could get $300 for...I gave him $400 for the lot, plus $50 sales tax. These are NZ dollers, so Americans divide by two and you will be about right. Not too bad for a big machine like that. Just had time to go home and get the trailer and come back for it before he closed at lunchtime, so we got that organised, and he loaded it with the forklift. The trailer axles were hard down on the stops so we put the tyre pressure up a bit and took it very quietly on the way home. It was not over the braking and towing limits for the vehicle, just a bit heavy for the rather soft trailer suspension. I put the afternoon in oiling, cleaning, and freeing things up. The big vice has come off Ok, the slideways all look good now that the surface rust has been removed, and I am very pleased with it. I hadn't been able to see inside before, but the crank, slotted arm, bullgear, and gearbox are all sound. The only sign of damage is a bit broken off the downslide dovetail on the gibstrip side at the bottom corner, and some broken off gib screws on that slide. In the evening I made a goof myself, the knob that holds the stroke adjustment for the autofeed has a left hand thread. No way of seeing the threads, so of course muggins tried to undo it the wrong way. Broke the squared head off. But I will be able to makea new one easy enough, I'll probably turn the end down a little and braze on a new head. Today I moved it to the area that will be its home, moving a lathe to make room for it. It makes the other Alba look just a little toy like, let alone the Ammco. Still, each will have its place. There is still a lot of cleaning, painting, and reassembly to do. Of course there is the minor detail of either changing the three phase motor, or building a phase convertor, which is more likely. A reduction on power is not going to matter much to me, I'm in no hurry. A machine this size will shift metal faster than I can afford to buy the stuff. If the movers haven't lost it, I have a suitable transformer to up the voltage from 230 to 440, so would only need to find the necessary capacitors etc to make a good convertor. Anyway, I will look into that. I'll also be off to the files area to see if we have the manual on line here yet. So now the collection is up to three&the Ammco, the Alba 1A, and now the Alba 4S. Some people dont know when to stop. regards John Olsen Auckland, New Zealand ------- Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2003 21:41:26 +1300 From: giolw9r4vh001x~xxsneakemail.com Subject: Re: Re: New Acquisition--Alba-18: Slotted Base Well I seem to have started a learned argument :) To clarify a bit, the T slots I refer to are on the base, eg just above the floor, making a big horizontal table out of the surface that the support slides on. The support bar slides across the area just in front of where the T slots are. The T slots go to nearly half way across, and there are three each side. I have concluded that the actual table support I have is not the original, it is only a piece of tube and I think there should be a flanged boss on the bottom of the table with a locking screw. (like the 1A has) I will make a pattern and get something cast to make things more original, and use a solid bar instead of the tube. It would I guess be possible to take the table off, (it is held on by four bolts) and use the holes, which actually might even be T slots by the look of things, to bolt a large job onto the face where the table used to go. This would be easier than providing a special traversing head, and would allow quite a large job. I am not sure yet if the table can tilt the way the Alba 1A can. That would need the bolts to go into a circular slot, it looks more like they are in straight T slots. I am not anxious to take the table off since I doubt if I could lift it unaided! It turns out that the autotransformer I used to have is one of the things that went to the scrappy before we moved. It is seriously likely that it will cost me more to set up the electrics to run it than it did to buy the machine. I may use the moral advantage that I currently have (my wife sent some things to the scrappy without asking first, including a piece of bronze bar that I really wanted:) to buy a suitable speed controller, so that I can run this and any future acquistions from three phase with only single phase input. Incidently this has a three HP motor on it. The ram has three unmachined bosses, top and both sides, near the front, evidently to mount some optional feature, maybe for a auto downfeed, which it does not have. There are some good features, for instance the slotted arm has two braces across it which will make it stronger. This is possible because it has the feature where you adjust the stroke by a geared arrangement from the other side of the machine. That is made possible by a gear box that drives the adjustable stroke crank for the auto feed. That also is cunning because there is a link which holds the centre line of the driven gear a constant distance from the horizontal feedscrew. So you don't have to adjust the length of the autofeed connecting rod when you change the height of the table. regards John ------- Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2003 23:12:44 +1300 From: Tom Subject: Re: Re: New Acquisition--Alba-18: Slotted Base Sounds similar to something in my shed, except mine has the automatic downfeed. The two horizontal bosses carry the shaft with the trip mechanism and the inner bevel gear which drives the shaft forward to the bevel gear on the downfeed screw. The top boss carries the feed control. The table is mounted off the horizontal tee slots on the saddle so it doesn't revolve. I'm set to change this on mine, when I adapt a full universal table setup off a Butler. Tom ------- Date: Sun, 23 Feb 2003 07:05:29 -0000 From: "dreilanderecht " Subject: I feel the earth move under my feet Well, it's really a bit premature to do this, because the machine is really not properly clean yet, but I got to the stage this afternoon where I put the vice back on and stuck a tool in the post, and tried out the "new" Alba 4S. Very successful! It runs quite quietly, with no embarrassing knocks, and peels off lovely big cuts. It is only running off single phase, but I'm using a jackup with an isolating transformer to give it the voltage it needs. The motor doesn't self start so you turn it on and then put a foot against the large pulley and give it a quick push in the right direction. It runs up to speed, and of course the machine has a clutch so you don't have to start it under load. I'm monitoring the current with a clip-on ammeter and it takes 4 Amps, only taking the odd flicker up to 5 or so. Since the motor is rated for 6.9 that seems fine. After running for half an hour or so, it was getting to the the just too warm to leave your hand on stage. This is good, because the 460 I get with the transformer is slightly more than the 415-440 specified. Longer term I would like to drop it down a little. Had the ideal transformer before I moved but sadly it went for scrap. And as my choice of title implies, you can feel the concrete floor moving slightly as it runs....I wonder how thick the concrete is? Curiously the big Jones and Shipman tool holders I use with the Alba 1A are too wide to fit into this toolpost, so at the moment I only have a couple of strange tools that I can use, made from rather big chunks of toolsteel. It did come with a holder that will take a 5/16 square bit, and can set it at 0, 45, 90 etc degrees around the circle. Looks potentialy useful but is still a bit too rusty to try. Probably only really useful for lighter work. regards John ------- Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2003 05:36:30 -0000 From: "Art Volz " Subject: Re: Springfield Shaper "jwelsh1054 " wrote: > This is my first post to this board as I am currently shape-less! > I have absolutely no need for this machine; however, I have the > opportunity to buy an OLD shaper manufactured by the Springfield > Machine Tool Co. of Springfield, Ohio. It appears to be about a 12" > machine, not extremely worn, but has no vise or toolpost. Don't know > if the motor runs or not or if there are any MAJOR problems - if there > are problems, they aren't obvious to a novice such as me. Probably > weighs about 1,200 lb. Asking price is $75. > Can anyone give me any info on Springfield shapers such as history, a > source for information regarding Springfield Machine or source for a > parts or instruction manual? Also, I'm be interested in this group's > opinion on this machine or if anyone out there has a similar shaper > that can answer occasional questions. Thanks. J--If you can move it, stable it, and afford it...you might be able to get it for half the asking price...buy it. They were pretty rugged industrial machines...back at the turn of the century...but don't expect to find any cache of parts anywhere...except by cannibalization...or even a manual. Back in olde tymes manuals weren't in style. You should be able to fabricate a new toolpost without difficulty or adapt one from a lathe's lantern tool post; lathe toolposts are also available new from a number of machine tool retailers. The larger size vises for shapers are easier to find and cheaper than those for the 7-inch benchtop shapers--pay attention on eBay and you should be able to locate a reasonably priced one readily. Kenneth Cope, in his 2002 book "American Planer, Shaper, and Slotter Builders, 1830-1910" ( http:// www.astragalpress.com ) wrote: "Springfield Machine Tool Co., Springfield, Ohio" "Founded in 1887 by Phillip E. Montanus (1854-1932), William H. Owen (?-1906) and Frank Kempsmith (1848-1904) to build lathes under contract for Lodge, Davis & Co. Montanus served as president until his death in 1932. Owen left in 1893 to found the Owen Machine Tool Co. Kempsmith left in 1888 to found the Kempsmith Machine Tool Co." "In 1891, the firm incorporated with a capital of $50,000 and began offering hand and power presses under its own name. Edward A. Muller, who had been superintendent of Lodge & Davis Machine Tool Co., joined the firm as superintendent in 1894." "In 1894, a line of crank shapers in 12", 15" and 20" stroke was introduced and, by 1895, the firm claimed to have shipped 600 shapers and to be the second largest builder of 15" and 20" crank shapers in the U.S. By 1903, the line had expanded to include 18" and 24" triple geared crank shapers weighing 1800 pounds and 2400 pounds respectively. A 16" crank shaper with a newly designed drive was introduced in 1904." It must be the beginning of Spring...in Ohio...as this is the second query, in two days, that I've answered concering "Spring"-field shapers. Where in Ohio is your 75 buck one located: north, central, or south? Art (Houston) ------- Date: Tue, 04 Mar 2003 22:05:42 -0000 From: "metalchipster " Subject: Re: cylinder heads About 11 years ago I was rebuilding one of my John Deere garden tractors and needed to have the head shaved. Because I was in a hurry, the local NAPA store sent me to a large automotive machine shop in another town. This machine shop served the southern part of Atlanta. This place was fairly large and had one large room dedicated to surfacing engine blocks and heads. They were using metal shapers to do it all. For their "V" style engine blocks they had special jigs attached to the universal tables of very large shapers. The tables were easily re-set from one row of cylinder banks to the other. On the square (standard) shaper tables they had special jigs mounted for the straight-line engine blocks and cylinder heads. The guy I was dealing with told me that they ran the shapers non-stop for two shifts. I was not a shaper fan at that time but I stood around and watched for quite a while because the action of those shapers shaving those blocks and heads was fascinating. I didn't pay much attention at the time to the jigs they had on the shaper tables. So, with my interest in shapers increasing over the years I returned to the machine shop last summer to see if they were still in use and to get a detailed look at their jigs. Unfortunately, there was not a shaper to be found on the premises. They had all been replaced around the year 2000 with something they called a "dry shaver". This machine had a long bed with ways and the cutting head moved along the ways and acted as a milling head. The engine blocks or heads were mounted between the ways just above a chip conveyor belt. This machine could surface several engine blocks or heads at the same time (in one pass). The milling head was loaded with carbide inserts and flung the small chips onto the sheetmetal side pan where it was funneled onto the conveyor belt. I asked the foreman why they replaced the shapers and he said with a chuckle, "They weren't Y2K ready!". Several other guys standing around started laughing. The foreman then said that the real reason was that the one "dry shaver" working one shift could do more work than all of the shapers could in two shifts. I asked the foreman what they did with the shapers and he said that they were completely worn out and they just gave them to the scrap man. A typical sad ending for metal shapers. Sad but true. Terry ------- Date: Wed, 05 Mar 2003 00:23:56 +0000 From: mariol.vitalex~xxatt.net Subject: Re: Re: cylinder heads Terry: A sad tale, indeed....and when someone says something silly like "well, that's progress" I want to strangle them. On the other hand when you stop to think about it, for a machine that was conceived over a century ago, and those particular shapers were probably no newer than just after WW II (more likely they were war surplus) means they were probably in productive service for over 50 years!!! Now THAT"S progress!?!?! THanks for the story. Mario ------- Date: Wed, 05 Mar 2003 01:56:52 -0000 From: "jwelsh1054" Subject: In the Barn! Just as a note of interest as a follow-up to my questions regarding the Springfield Machine Tool Co. of last week - the 12" Springfield shaper that I bought today is safely in the barn/shop. Took a bit of work - that thing is considerably heavier than I expected - but after a lot of grunting, tugging, prying, hoisting and a few specially chosen words to aid in my "stress" relief, I got it out of the back of the pickup and rolled into the corner. Hopefully, warm weather and some spare time will allow me to investigate its condition more fully. No vise or toolpost, but I'll keep looking. Only problem - now my truck is hopelessly stuck in the slush/snow between the house and the shop!! John in OH ------- Date: Fri, 07 Mar 2003 01:14:27 -0000 From: "jwelsh1054" Subject: Re: In the Barn! > Hi John, Congratulations on the shaper. I was the second Springfield > shaper inquiry that Art referred to. I had asked him what he knew about > Springfield shapers. Was the one you bought at HGR in Cleveland. I > stopped there today to take a Pix for Art & it was gone. Jim Yup ..... that's the one! It caught my eye several weeks ago when I was at HGR looking for some 2J collets. I gave it a once over and classified it as a boat anchor -- initial appearance was rough, I had never heard of Springfield Machine and it had no clapper box. Decided that I would "pass". Then, last week I was at HGR again and noticed that the shaper was still there. This time I had a flashlight and was wearing my grubbies so I gave it a much more thorough examination. The physical condition was better than I had first thought and it is a compact machine for a 12 incher. But what really iced the cake was finding the clapper box stored away in the table cavity!! This meant that it was (or easily could be) actually a functional machine! I made an offer considerably below the $100 asking price and we eventually agreed upon $75 which included a few extra non-shaper related goodies that I wanted. Actually, I'm disappointed to hear that the second inquiry that Art referred to is in regard to the same machine! I was hoping that there was at least one other Springfield shaper owner out there that I could connect with and trade info ( actually, I'm afraid that the trade would have been mostly one way - in my favor - as I know next to nothing about shapers!). Maybe I have the only living Springfield shaper remaining in existance!!! Maybe it is really quite rare and unique and actually worth thousands of dollars!!!! Yeah ..... and maybe I'm the Prince of Wales! Do you mind my asking the nature of your initial inquiry regarding the Springfield shaper?? I have the HGR listing photo file of the shaper if you and/or Art are still interested. If so, I'll try (if I can figure out how) to post is somewhere. Incidentally, the truck is still stuck!! John in OH ------- Date: Fri, 07 Mar 2003 03:19:25 -0000 From: "jimbogner" Subject: Re: In the Barn! Hi John, I have an interest in Shapers and hadn't heard of that make. It's too big for me. I have several of the smaller 7-8" variety. I asked Art about it & he was kind enough to mail me copies of several pages from Kenneth L. Cope's book "Americam Planer, Shaper and Slotter Builders 1830-1910". There are 3 pages that give the history of the company with 5 drawings of different models. If you give me your address I'll mail you a copy. One interesting thing about your shaper is the foot brake. Art may like a picture of it. Good luck with the truck. Jim ------- Date: Fri, 07 Mar 2003 07:48:40 -0000 From: "dreilanderecht" Subject: Re: 12" Steptoe > Does anyone have a manual for this model or a similar one? At this > time I am most interested in the weight. Well, I don't have the manual, but I would go out on a limb and guess that it is going to weigh around half a ton. Maybe more, probably not much less. For a comparison, my ten inch Alba with cast iron stand apparently weighs 850 lbs. I don't know for sure since I can't pick it up on my own. Don't let the weight put you off, it is not too hard to shift this sort of stuff even without hoists, so long as you exercise lots of care and patience. regards John ------- Date: Sat, 08 Mar 2003 19:20:16 -0000 From: "jwelsh1054" Subject: Springfield Shaper Photo Jim, Art, et al., I posted a photo of my recently aquired 12" Springfield shaper in the Photo section in an album entitled, Springfield Machine Tool Co. Sorry that the photo is not better; however, it is the "listing" photo that was used by the seller so it does not show too much detail and is not very complimentary. Hopefully, if others have Springfield Machine Tool equipment of any kind they can add their photos to this album. As you can see, the drive system is rather hokey. The motor direct drives a reducer that drives the 4-step flat belt pulley. It does have a rather slick belt tightening mechanism that allows for quick and easy belt step changing. I'm more than willing to try to answer any questions that you may have. John in OH ------- Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2003 09:55:48 +1300 From: Tom Subject: Re: Springfield Shaper Photo Certainly has an interesting drive line, John. That it has guarded feed gears, places it as 1918 or later, as up till then the 12" & 15" had unguarded feed gears, must have been a cost thing as all the bigger machines had them. Weight by the way was 1450 lbs, your drive system, being extra on that. Tom ------- Date: Sun, 09 Mar 2003 02:01:04 -0000 From: "gd3006" Subject: Re: Springfield Shaper Photo A picture of mine has been posted in the photo section under Spring12shaper. The two machines appear very much the same, but there are a few detail differences, such as the feed gear guarding, and the number of table t-slots. Though not shown in the picture, I was fortunate enough to get the original vise, countershaft cone and tool trays. Sincerely, Dean ------- Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2003 02:44:13 -0000 From: "dreilanderecht" Subject: Re: 100 years ago you could buy a hand planer. Anybody got one? "remlapfluke" wrote: > While reading over Kenneth Cope's book on companies who made shapers, > planers, & Slotters, I noticed that hand planers were once offered. > Real neat looking machines that had to be tough to operate. Does a > member of this group have one? If not, has somebody operated one? > I would really like to read more about them. Thanks. Jeff > Often times making chips on the shaper...just for fun. I believe they were made as recently as the fifties, if that is recent. Certainly hand shapers were still available then. One of the things that this shows is how much electric motors have come down in price and availability over the years. No doubt the operator would develop good biceps and would be a sure winner at arm wrestling, but then, think of the alternatives. If you don't have any other machine to do large flat surfaces, you will have to do them with the chisel and file like the oldtimers did. That will be even harder work, and more painstaking since the accuracy all depends on the skill of the operator. We tend to forget that anything that can be done at all, can be done with hand tools, given enough time, practice, and painstaking care. Tom Walshaw "Tubal Cain" demonstrated this with a series in the Model Engineer where he built a horizontal steam engine using only hand tools, a tour de force that I have no intention of emulating. regards John ------- Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2003 23:41:25 EST From: n8as1x~xxaol.com Subject: Re: Re: 100 years ago you could buy a hand planer. Anybody go... > I beleive they were made as recently as the fifties my cauldwell catalog,circa 1965+ listind 3-5 in english made hand shapers ..the ram traversed ,table was fixed best wishes docn8as ------- Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2003 17:35:56 -0000 From: "Dave" Subject: Pratt & Whittney 9" WOW my first Shaper ! Hi Group: Wanted to say hello to all you shaper lovers and to say that I finally got my first shaper . . . a Pratt & Whittney of aprox 9" stroke. Measuring the stroke length adjustment slot it is 8 and 7/8 inches long. From this I infer that the actual max stroke would be about 8 and a half inches? A picture of It ,and the vice correct all but one detail appears in the book "Machine Tools of 1885". In the Shapers chapter. Searched the archives here and did not come up with any mentions of PW shapers. I assume there is a listing somewhere in the files section of this board that lists all the members shaper makes but I haven't yet found it. Well It's at my place now poised outside my enlarged basement window soon to make the last leg of its journey to its new home in my basement. HAPPY DAY ! LOL Dave Lawrence ------- Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2003 08:11:32 +1200 From: Tom Subject: Re: Pratt & Whittney 9" WOW my first Shaper ! Sounds like a tool, Dave! The 9" P & W shaper, actually has a stroke of 10", the slot in the ram is for positioning the ram in relationship to the work. The vertical adjustment of the table is 9". Weight 1050 lbs with countershaft. Tom ------- Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2003 22:22:56 -0000 From: "dreilanderecht" Subject: Re: Pratt & Whittney 9" WOW my first Shaper ! As Tom says, the slot is for adjusting the position of the ram relative the the job and table, so is not necessarily the same as the stroke. In fact, on my Alba 1A of similar size, this slot is really too short. This matters when you find that you want to do a short stroke on a piece that has to mount well out on the table. Normally you would mount the piece as close to the back as possible, but where this is not possible, you can find yourself a bit stuck, eg to do the cut out at the front end of the table the stroke has to be set longer, and that could mean that the tool is close to fouling some other part of the job further back. This sort of thing is why I try to pull the machine over by hand before running under power! Anyway, one would imagine that with a Pratt and Whitney, the chips should really fly! regards John ------- Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2003 03:00:06 -0000 From: "Chris" Subject: Re: Pratt & Whittney 9" WOW my first Shaper ! Congrats, Dave I'm pretty sure that the Antique Gas Engine and Tractor Museum in Vista, CA has a P&W shaper about the same size as yours running from a line shaft in their machine shop. If you can post a picture, I'll compare it to theirs next time I get up that way. Cheers, Chris ------- Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2003 12:55:28 -0800 From: "Rick Brucken" Subject: South Bend Serial #'s Hello to the group I normally eavesdrop here and have learned a lot about shapers, thank you all. I recently took the plunge and purchased a South Bend 7" shaper and have been trying to determine when it was manufactured. I spoke with Rose at LeBlond, but she did not have anything on file to match my shaper's serial number. which is SH83782 758C. Can any of you tell from this number what year it was manufactured? Rose thought the first digit was the month (August) and the second two digits the year, but apparently these shapers weren't made as early as 1937. Also, if anyone knows of a factory 3-drawer cabinet for this shaper available for sale, please let me know. Thanks for any help, Rick Brucken ------- Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2003 22:01:09 -0000 From: "Art Volz" Subject: Re: South Bend Serial #'s Rick--My only info, which may be pure conjecture itself, was that the second and third numeral indicated year of manufacture as Rose stated. You stated that "apparently, these shapers weren't made as early as 1937." Do you have a source for "apparently" or one for the date of first manufacture? (Anyone know when SB-7's were first made?) Unfortunately, when a company is in "final mode", institutionaal knowledge--the "little old lady in tennis shoes" (IN South Bend in this case)--is always the first to be let go. Art (Houston) ------- Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2003 00:28:17 -0000 From: "al_messer" Subject: Re: South Bend Serial #'s Rick, Mine was made in 1972 and is Serial No. 15728-7S8B. Yours is probably younger than mine. I would hazzard a guess that yours was made in February of 1978. Al Messer ------- Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2003 19:40:59 -0000 From: "Art Volz" Subject: Re: South Bend serial # Rick-- Rose may be absolutely correct. The 1950's, however, just seems like getting into the shaper ball game in the bottom of the eighth. However, I've never seen a SB-7 with WWII government service tags: the bench shapers that I've seen with those tags have been AMMCO's. I have two original OEM editions of South Bend's "How to Run a Metal Working Shaper". Both of mine are "Edition 3, 1954" with Copyrights of 1966, but with a notice that it was also Coprighted in both 1952 and 1954. There is a good possibility, therefore, that 1952 may have been the SB-7's birthdate. I don't have a very extensive collection of South Bend's tool catalogs and brochures from which, if dated, to determine a closer date of probable introduction. If you have a large university library near you, you may be able to find South Bend Lathe advertisements in various 1940's and 1950's VoTech and Popular Science/Mechanics type magazines which may help to better pinpoint likely dates of introduction. Art (Houston) ------- Date: Sun, 30 Mar 2003 08:21:49 +1200 From: Tom Subject: Re: Re: South Bend serial # I have them listed in a 1950 catalog..FWIW Tom ------- Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 16:34:19 -0000 From: "Alan Painter" Subject: J. Steptoe 16 inch Shaper I have just posted some before and after pictures of my 16 inch J. Steptoe shaper that I recently made operational. The pictures are in an album on http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Metal Shapers Pix I purchased this shaper at an auction in Oregon a couple of years ago for $60. I am sure the first bidder was the local scrap iron dealer at $50 and there was no further bidding after me. It sat in my shop while I finished the interior of the shop and then refurbished an old flatbelt driven Carroll -Jamieson lathe purchased at the same auction. The shaper was complete with a shaper vice on a swivel base and everything more or less moved although it looked pretty sad in original flat black paint. The only obvious damage were broken out chunks of the table surface surrounding the hold down bolts for the vice. I finally started working on it this winter and now have it up and running. The first order of business was to devise some power to drive it. I was originally going to retain a flat belt drive system from a motor attached to the rear of the machine via a large flat pulley 22 inches in diameter that I had, and another 4 step cone pulley that I would have to make. I decided this would take up too much floor space in my shop. I had become interested in trying out the variable frequency drive idea that everyone was writing about in the magazines so I purchased a 3 hp 3 phase motor and VFD package from Dealers Electric. I hinged the motor on the back of the shaper and fashioned a lever operated clutch mounted on the right side of the machine that slackened the belts to disengage the drive. The two vee belts drive on the largest step of the cone pulley. I did have to mount two idler pulleys on the outside of the belts to ensure that the belt drive did disengage from the cone pulley surface when the belts were slackened. The belt guard I made from three pieces of old water tank, some expanded metal screen and Bondo fillets to hide the ugly welds. The VFD is mounted on the wall behind the machine and a remote control box on the right side of the machine houses ON, OFF and Reverse switches and a variable resistor for speed control. The motor is nominally 1800 rpm but with the VFD I use 500 to 900 rpm giving 26 to 46 strokes per minute. The crossfeed leadscrew nut ( square thread ) was very worn so I made a new one out of brass. The leadscrew and nut ( also square thread) for the toolpost travel was also badly worn. I was never sure when the tool would take up the slop and drop. The screw was 8 tpi and the thimble was graduated in sixty-fourths. I just don't compute in sixty- fourths very well so I made a new screw and nut in 1/2- 20 size and graduated a new thimble in thousandths. I also added a lock to the movement. These changes now make for reliable movement of the tool. I had to do some repair of the crossfeed ratchet and make a square drive wrench for the various adjustments from an old tractor starting handle. I mounted a square drive on the outer end of the cone pulley and left a hole in the belt guard so that I can hand crank the machine using the same handle to check for correct set-up before starting the motor. I am temporarily using a spare Kurt milling vise while I contemplate what to do about about the damaged table. It locates in areas of the tee slots that aren't broken out. So, after quite a few hours of work and about ten times the original investment in dollars I have a usable shaper that I am pleased with. ------- Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 20:19:07 -0000 From: "Art Volz" Subject: Making New Atlas Shapers (Was: Re: Early Atlas Shaper Manual) Anthony hit it right on the head. There is absolutely no commecial market in the USA for a re-issue of the Atlas shaper. The hobbyist market--us--is extremely small, fickle, tighter than tight, and is being adequately provided, with used Atlas & other shapers, for about $500 each plus transpo. To set up here a new (I doubt that the old patterns are even extant and the production line has long since been sold off as either used machinery or CI scrap..and, then, there's the problem of finding skilled machinists) production facility to manufacture these dinosaurs would be prohibitive and probably without any possible return on investment. Looking at machine tools being made today in the USA, and comparing degree of complexity with probable cost, a shaper such as the Atlas 7B would be in at least the $10,000 (10K) price range. When South Bend was still making/selling their 10L lathe a few years ago (is Blue Ridge still marketing this dude???) it was going for about $15,000 in the nude, without accessories, and with shipping extra. On the other hand, in a Capitalistic society such as ours, anyone with a REAL (not imagined) business plan to try to secure bank loans to start up such a company to re-manufacture a rebadged clone of Atlas 7B is welcome to do so. But, don't expect any bank to loan you any dough...not after they scour your Market Analysis...and laugh their heads off. You could even purchase, from Clausing, a set of the engineering drawings for about $7.50 (??) a part. Better yet, make a clone of the Logan-8: a complete set of dimensioned drawings is available from Scott at only $100 a complete set. Then, plans in hand, take a trip to your local foundry--if you can find one--and get an estimate for what it would cost just for a set of green castings. (Remember you have to stress relieve these pieces either in a special oven or out back for about six months where they ain't making any money before you can machine them.) That ought to be a nice sized number. Then set down with "your" manufacturing engineer/chief machinist and figure out how you're going to make each part, and the cost thereof. Ouch!!! Start with the column and figure out with what, and how you're going to jig it to work, just to machine the slideways for the ram and the table apron square to each other. You'll probably need at least a 16-inch shaper to do so. Costs, costs, costs...more costs. Remember that eBay can probably meet the market demand for only about $500 a copy...way below the costs of making a new one. Art (Houston) ------- NOTE TO FILE: The following started as a thread on divining the date code of AMMCO shapers from their serial numbers. The original discussion is in the text file "AMMCO Shapers". ------- Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 22:18:44 -0000 From: "Art Volz" Subject: Re: AMMCO Serial Number, more John-- Perhaps there's a hidden number, a form not unlike that used for error correction in data bit streams: a hidden "parity bit" as used in some "Hamming Codes". Maybe your hidden number could be "found" in this manner-- SH41522 = 4+1+5+2+2 = 14. Since 14 is an even number, its parity bit is 1 (if the "addition" had been odd, it would have been a 0) so, in this "serial number model" the complete number, with hidden parity bit attached, would be: SH415221. Therefore, your shaper was the 421st one made in January of 1952!!! It's perfectly obvious that that's the case! But then, also, it might just be, with parity bit attached, six-bit assembly language...and, if so, we're right back into the middle of the "thicket". :-) With the frequency that AMMCO's appear on eBay, the AMMCO was probably made in numbers (relatively) comparable to the Atlas. In my recollection, they are the only ones I remember seeing, in this 7- incher size, with Armed Forces Identification Plates affixed. Somewhere, they may even have had a special ARMY Technical Manual (TM), like did the Later SB-7, but I have never seen one. Most likely the principle Army TM was TM 1-421, "Milling Machines, Shapers, and Planers", April 20, 1942. In the back of this TM is a distribution scheme, but one would have to have a 1942 forces structure to include respective TO&E's (Tables of Organization and Equipment) as a minimum to try to determine what that meant in possible quantities of what kind of shapers. Probably, if one could get access to WWII Ordnance procurement documents--in some dusty file deep within the bowels of the Pentagon (next to the Top Secret plans for the bombay doors on the Enola Gay)--a determination of Army procured quantities could be more accurately determined. AMMCO, and all of its history, is most likely long gone; I doubt that the current Delta has any "recollection" either. The ones made in China--and in India--are industrial machines, not small 7-inchers. One of the lads in Australia, last year, obtained a Chinese shaper currently being manufactured. There are PICs of it in "Photos" here and in message postings of the same time period. Several years ago, Joe W. (JRW), I, and several others from the Houston HMSC, had an "experimental" group here on Yahoo (still exists, but VERY dormant) trying to access the possibilities of making, in America, a hobbyist lathe...at reasonable cost and still being able to make a profit. Few, however, were willing to change old ways of construction and design even if the new machine's capabilities were equal or better. Some of our "straw-men" proposals included pipe/tubing, electronic controls (fly by wire), steppers/servos, polymer-concrete mass structures, and other cost- saving means. NOPE!!! If it wasn't a cast iron South Bend 10, exactly like Granpaw bought in the '40's they didn't want it. AND, the price had to remain at the $500 (?) level that Granpaw had paid. What Joe and I determined from this "experiment" was that even though a much cheaper in cost lathe could be built using modern techniques, that no one would buy it, ESPECIALLY NOT THE HOBBYISTS. We pretty well determined, at that time, that we were wasting our time. Shapers could also be so modernized...and while the "Metal_Shapers" group is, on the whole, a much more knowledgible and sophisted group, that acceptance of such a "NEW" machine would also be extremely limited. Machine tools, those being still built in the US today, exhibit almost total technological change when compared to thier ancestors of the WWII era. Cast iron still is used, but so are huge weldments and polymer concrete for frames and structures. Some machines still use metal-on-metal friction slideways, most do not: they use off-the- shelf bolted on anti-friction-bearing slideway assemblies. The list of technical differences goes on...and on... Anyone want to make a concrete shaper...on the cheap...with stepper motor driven tables and direct-screw-drive rams? I doubt it. Art (Houston) ------- Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 23:40:59 -0000 From: "dreilanderecht" Subject: Re: AMMCO Serial Number, more In Metal_Shapersx~xxyahoogroups.com, "Art Volz" wrote: > John--erhaps there's a hidden number, a form not unlike that used for > error correction in data bit streams: a hidden "parity bit" as used > in some "Hamming Codes". Maybe your hidden number could be "found" > in this manner-- Nah.....Its just that I have the oldest Ammco about, nyah nyah nyah! Of course some one will now pop up with an even shorter number. :) > The ones made in China--and in India--are industrial machines, not > small 7-inchers. One of the lads in Australia, last year, obtained a > Chinese shaper currently being manufactured. There are PICs of it > in "Photos" here and in message postings of the same time period. A good big one will always beat a good little one! (Not always true of course, especially for those who don't have space.) I did get to use a Chinese one at the polytechnic last year, it was a machine that I would happlily give shop space to. >Anyone want to make a concrete shaper...on the cheap...with stepper > motor driven tables and direct-screw-drive rams? I doubt it. There would I think be a few takers, it would be the guys whose focus is on wanting the machine for the use they could make of it, rather than on the machine itself. Which is probably rather similar to the group who build Gingery machines. Not meant as a put down, the Gingery designs are functional but not the same as a "standard" machine, for excellent reasons. But people are in fact very conservative. In the Model Engineering clubs here, there is a strong body of opinion that the Myford is the Model Engineers lathe, and so when someone shows up with anything else, whether Boxford, Emco, Far Eastern or whatever, there are likely to be remarks about it not really being a Model Engineers lathe. Now, the Myford does have some well thought out features like the relatively large slotted cross slide which help make the machine more versatile than some. But you can build a locomotive on other machines too. The trend to larger locomotives is helping to dispose of this attitude a bit, since you can't easily build much bigger than five inch gauge on a Myford. When my Dad built a rack and pinion tailstock feed for the Myford there were those who didn't really think it was the proper thing to do, it was "nonstandard". Well, Ok, the machine didn't originally come that way, but Myford do (or did) make a lever feed of their own, and it does in fact add greatly to the utility of the machine. This sort of thing was mentioned in "Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance, the bit where the guy with the BMW bike wouldn't let him shim the handlebars with beercan, even though it is excellent shimstock. Although it is pretty thin these days. I saw a similar thing when a friend arrived on a Yamaha once with a failed rectifier, it was mounted under the battery and the diodes had received a dose of sulphuric from a cracked battery. Since they were naked dies attached to a steel plate and covered with silcone rubber, they had died. So I made up a new rectifier with gold plated stud mounted 50 Amp diodes from RCA, all mounted on a nice aluminium heatsink and unobtrusively located under the side cover where acid couldn't leak on it and where it could get a cooling breeze too. Sent him on his way with a new battery and a better setup, and a few weeks later he brough me back the rectifier assembly, he had decided to go to the shop and get the standard part. Never mind that the standard part cost about a weeks pay and was inferior to the one we had put in... Of course, it is a bit different when you have something that is literally a museum piece and want to keep it close to original. But then, in that case the line shafting and flat belts and so on is the object of the hobby. If you just want to build stuff, you should focus on the capability of the machines. But I fear that we are irrational creatures at heart. regards John ------- Date: Thu, 01 May 2003 00:40:59 +0000 From: mariol.vitalex~xxatt.net Subject: Re: Re: AMMCO Serial Number, more John, Re "Zen And The Art Of MC Mechanics" Reminds me of the time when I was in college. Two classmates, one from Chicago and one from Cleveland, came to visit me at my home in New York during summer vacation. They were both riding their relatively new Honda 250 Scramblers.(this was in 1967) On arrival they were concerned. A front wheel bearing on one of the bikes had "gone south". After removing the bearing, 'mic'-ing it and calling every motorcycle dealer and bearing supply hose in New York City, only to find out they were all closed. Wanting to leave early the next morning to go to Lime Rock Connetticut, to watch sports car races, we were in a panic. My father wandered up and casually asked to see the bearing. He held it up (at arms length, so his aging eyes could focus), put it down and wandered off. A few minute later he wandered back and casually said "here, try this." as he handed me a bearing. It was a perfect replacement! When I asked where he got it, he explained that it was one that he had replaced in the Bendix washing machine! My father bought that washing machine in 1945, the year I was born and has maintained it ever since...replacing bearings regularly, replacing seals and waterpumps when neccesary, rebuilding water pumps and making seals when they were no longer available. My friend was a little more pragmatic than yours; he rode the bike back to Chicago, then back to scjhool in St. Louis, and raced it in scrambles and enduros for several years without replacing the bearing. By the way, the Bendix washing machine is still in regular use...my older brother now maintains it. Mario ------- Date: Thu, 01 May 2003 04:00:14 -0000 From: "dreilanderecht" Subject: Re: Bendix washing machines So Bendix must have been using metric bearings as far back as 1945? I thought you Americans were a bit backwards on the metric stuff....or "Japanese Imperial" as we sometimes used to call it. My Dad replaced a bearing in a dishwasher motor once, one of the cheap nasty motors where they weld the end covers onto the stack of laminations. No problem, just use an angle grinder to allow the cover to be removed. Some of the modern washing machines use a motor which has a permanent magnet rotor, and use a VFD type of device to control the speed, braking, and so on. A motor like that is in effect a big stepper motor, maybe quarter or third horsepower. Now does that give you any ideas??? hmmm, how did we get here? regards John ------- Date: Thu, 01 May 2003 16:27:28 +1200 From: Tom Subject: Re: Re: Bendix washing machines Metric bearings in the US goes back to before 1920, when the US motor industry approached SKF of Sweden to become a supplier of bearings as they were the premier manufacturer. SKF response was: You vant our bearinks? Vell dey are more expensive in imperial sizes, ze metric vons ist cheaper! Ve make more metric than imperial! So that's why US autos have had, for donkey's years, metric sized bearings. GM held out as they owned New Departure, still used ball bearings for front wheel bearings in the brands up to 1960. Tom ------- Date: Mon, 05 May 2003 11:28:58 -0000 From: "rjacksonzener" Subject: Re: douglas shaper --- In Metal_Shapersx~xxyahoogroups.com, "jparlane66" wrote: > Hi all, I'm new to the group but have just bought a douglas 10.5" > shaper for nz$200 thats about us$66 and would like a bit of info on > the machine. It looks to be in fairly good order complete except the > rod which connects to the forward /reverse ratchet rocker. The motor > is a dead 3/4 hp 3 phase which I will replace with a 1hp single phase > one. Needs a good bath with kero but thats to be expected. > Haven't run a shaper for 40 years since the days when i spent a lot > of time planing cylinder heads and making ford ten cars go a lot > faster. thanks Jim Jim, I'm new here too and also just aquired a Douglas. I don't think that there is a lot of info around specific to this machine. As far as general info goes there are several really good manuals in the files section of this list and no shortage of live experience here as well. I would like to dig up some info on this machine just to satisfy curiousity as well as it being a bit unusual in that there aren't a hell of a lot of Australian made machine tools around. What I've dug up so far.... You have one (NZ) I have one (AUS) Terry (on this group/with pictures) has one (AUS) Someone in Queensland probably has one because there was a wanted addvert in the latest Australian Model Engineering seeking manuals etc for one (AUS) The maker was PK Douglas Pty Ltd in Enfield (Sydney suburb)- this company shows in the ASIC (Australian secuities regulator) listing as being "deregistered" with no other info. I think that this means they ceased to be some time before computer record keeping, which I think started around 1980 for ASIC. Mine has markings that suggest it came from a Sydney high school - one that I think was built in baby boomer times (for high schools probably late 50s maybe early 60s). One other I have seen at a dealer's was from Sydney Teacher's College. My guess is that these machines were popular in the Australian educational market (or NSW anyway), a bit like the Hercus lathe. I have also had 3 different people say to me that they remember using one at school. There also seems to be at least 2 versions in that mine has a clutch but Terry's doesn't. The odd thing is that this machine and/or maker just doesn't show up on the internet. I have searched for and found some pretty obscure things on the net, but the Douglas shaper is a total secret apart from this group and another run by Terry. Somewhere there is a manual in a school library or on a teachers bookshelf. There are probably some class notes made on one of theose sprit duplicator machines as well. Anybody know a school metalwork teacher at just about retiring age? Anybody know any bits and pieces about the Douglas Shaper? Ron ------- Date: Mon, 05 May 2003 20:18:54 -0000 From: "dreilanderecht" Subject: Re: douglas shaper, more Ocker stuff While we are on obscure Aussy shaper stuff, when I acquired my Alba 4S, inside the table was an incredibly rusty collecionn of tooling, mostly looking like it might be meant to be tools for either internal keyways or boring on a lathe. There was one toolholder of the type someties called a shaper planer tool, but it was so ruty that I just put it aside for the moment. Anyway, at the weekend I became inspired somehow, and started cleaning it up. The rust was pretty thick, but turned out not to have pitted the surface badly undserneath, and it cleaned up quite well...so well in fact that I can make out the details forged into the side. It is a "LOCK" brand, "MADE IN AUST". Which must be Australia because the Austrians would have used German. Having got it nice and clean, including cleaning up the thread, I have treated it with gun blue and it now looks nearly as good as the brand new Jones and Shipman one that I picked up on Saturday. This is the type of toolholder where the forged bar has an eye on the end, and the back of the eye is machined with shallow slots. They run vertical, horizontal, and at 45 degrees. A round headed bolt with a square hole just below the head holds a piece of 5/16 square tool steel in any of the slots, permitting it to be set at any of the angles available. The Aussy one is about eight inches long overall. As I mentioned, I also scored a bigger one on Saturday. One of the local tool suppliers has just moved, and to avoid a big stocktake are selling off a whole lot of interesting stuff. One of the items was a new J & S toolholder, about ten inches long. Since they only wanted NZ$10, I grabbed it. Actually it came with a good big piece of HSS that would be liable to cost that much on its own. So the big tool holder can go on the Alba 4S and the smaller one on the Alba 1A. (They also have Clarkson autolock chucks for NZ$20, with no collets.) But those with the Douglas machines should keep their eyes peeled, you might be able to find genuine Ocker tooling to go with your genuine Ocker machine. regards John ------- Date: Tue, 6 May 2003 22:07:30 +1000 From: "Ron Jackson" Subject: RE: Re: douglas shaper, more Ocker stuff John, Sounds like a great deal on the tooling. I think you are correct about made in oz. I have vague recollections of seeing this brand around lathes years ago, probably at tech college where I did 1 term of "workshop technology" in an electronics course. My Douglas had a LOCK toolholder in the toolpost when I bought it. Unfortunately not the adjustable angle type you describe, but just a straight type with about 10 deg tool rake built in. Looks like it has been in the shaper since day 1, but still quite ok. Actually I think it is not a shaper toolholder at all, but meant for a lathe. When I have some time, I will use Art's drawing of a tool holder like yours to make one. The shallow slots look like a good shaper job. Ron ------- Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 09:10:52 -1000 (HST) From: Tom Benedict Subject: Re: 12 in. Sheldon shaper available! On Wed, 14 May 2003, frankdorion wrote: > This shaper appears to be just about perfect. It is in a private home > shop, and I doubt that it ever saw any serious commercial use. The > asking price is $900, but it may be negotiable. It's so nice I was > tempted to buy it even though I already have one. (Is that a sickness?) Yes, it is. It is definitely a sickness. I finally got to the boxes where my shop books were packed two nights ago. As I was shelving them I realized just how much stuff I'd bought from Lindsay. I've now got four books on gear design and cutting. But know what? I'd buy another one in a heartbeat. Can never have enough books, can never have enough tools. Surely surely you could come up with a project that would REQUIRE two shapers running simultaneously. Right? (Right?) If for no other reason, this way you can invite friends over and you can both be going at once. Tom P.S. No, that line of reasoning never worked with my wife, either. The only way I got my Lewis home was to claim it followed me when I left the auction, and gosh couldn't I keep it? PuhlEEEEEZE? ------- Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 22:49:20 -0000 From: "dreilanderecht" Subject: Re: run them both at once You can in fact run more than one shaper at a time, and probably in the long distant times when they were to be found in production shops, this would have been the norm. My own personal best was running two shapers, the lathe, and the bandsaw all at once. The bandsaw was the only one that would turn itself off at the end of a cut, so it didn't matter that it was in another shed. The lathe neeeded the most attention since leaving it too long would have spoilt the chuck. :) You have to keep your eyes open doing this sort of stuff, and it is hard to keep it up for long because you can't really set up a job easily while minding another machine. OK for production work where you have jigs so you just put the piece in and clamp it down, but if you have to set the piece up from scratch, it takes too much concentration to be able to mind a couple of other machines at the same time. It also requires work that can be done on automatic feed, eg not shaping out a slot or up to a shoulder. Not unless you have arranged an automatic cutoff. Of course, I have more machines now, maybe I can arrange an auto feed on the mill drill, then I could do three shapers, two lathes and a mill drill......naaah, the fuse wouldn't stand it... Have you compared the books on gear cutting? I noticed that the one I have, bought back in the seventies from MAP, uses the same diagrams as are in Modern Machine Shop Practice. regards John -------- Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2003 10:12:26 -0600 From: "Richard " Subject: End of Voyage to Collect Shaper I returned last night to Boulder, CO, after a 4,000 mile round trip to pick up the Southbend 7" shaper from Lyons, New York. A friend with a truck was gracious enough to offer to accompany me. We set out on 7/15, and made it to Omaha the first night. The second night we stayed in Toledo. On the third day we made it to Pine Grove Mills, PA, and visited Andy Lofquist, proprietor of Metal Lathe Accessories -- he provides beautiful kits for accessories for the Southbend 9" lathe, although many are readily adaptable for other machines as well. Stopping at Andy's was a treat because his shop is so sparse and small, yet he manages to produce such lovely, intricate work. He is a true artist. I left quite a bit of money on the table, buying many of those kits I had been eyeballing for a while, and justifying it to myself that at least this way I was avoiding UPS charges on 146 lbs. of iron castings!!! After seeing Andy we pushed on to Horseheads, NY, and checked into a motel at about 2 a.m. The next morning we made it to Lyons, NY, quite early, and loaded the shaper: It is gorgeous, with the original stand and vise, and very little wear. I am quite pleased with it. So we headed through Buffalo and into Ontario, stopping briefly in Niagara Falls. We slept in Windsor, Ontario, that night, and recrossed into the Detroit the next morning, spending a chunk of the day at the Henry Ford Museum. We made it to Holland, MI, by nightfall. We took the ferry from Ludington, MI, to Manitowoc, WI the next morning -- a pleasant respite from driving -- and then had lunch in Green Bay at an old railway depot converted into a microbrew pub. I bought a Bridgeport cherrying attachment from a guy in that area, and we visited the National Railway Museum nearby. We made it to Hudson, WI, by night. The next day I cracked open the paper only to find that a local Minneapolis technical school was liquidating some of their machine tools, and so that day was lost: I saw a Monarch lathe go for $1,000, an Emco CNC turning center, complete, go for $500, etc. I spent about $190.00, picking up a couple of small annealing ovens and some abrasives. We spent the rest of the day at a friend's place where my fellow traveler picked up a molding bench. Now the truck was FULL!!! The next morning we set off and made it to Rapid City, SD, and yesterday we dropped down past Mount Rushmore, etc., through Cheyenne, to home. The odometer showed just about 4,000 miles in 8 days as we arrived. Just an example of one guy pursuing his shaper . . . vty -- rbp ------- Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2003 12:24:30 -0500 From: Mike M Fendley Subject: Re: End of Voyage to Collect Shaper Richard, What an enjoyable trip that must have been! You missed one great store in Minneapolis though. When ever I pass through I always stop at "Tried and True Tools." They are a consignment store. You bring in your used tools to sell, they take a small commission and sell it for you. The accessories and tools you find there are fantastic! Got a t-slotted extension table for my Logan shaper (it would fit any 7-10' shaper) for $20. No dings, pits, chips, looked brand new. Picked up a t-slotted, oil trough square drill press table that interchanges with my big round slotted one. Now I keep the vise on the square one, and two of the special drill press type vise grips on the round slotted one. I just switch tables for setups now. Also picked up a 10" face plate with tapped 3/8 holes all over it on an MT4 mount. Perfect for putting on my Alexander (Think Deckel F1) V/H mill to hold a 20" diameter pulley if I needed to machine one and use the mill like a lathe. No I'm not the sales guy at Tried and True . . . but if you're ever in the area of the north suburbs of the Twin Cities, go to Fridley, up University Ave. to about 78th st. The store is huge with both mechanical stuff, mechanics tools, wood working, and metal working . . . plus tons of shop type magazines. Don't forget to bring your wallet or your credit card, you will use it! Have fun with the SB and keep makin linear chips! Mike Fendley, LeClaire, Iowa PS How 'bout a picture of your new prize in the shaper pix soon? ------- Date: Sun, 28 Sep 2003 08:59:49 -0500 From: "Mario L Vitale" Subject: Re: Re: Art, is the Dvorak shaper a Lewis shaper? Mike in Iowa --- Original Message ----- From: "Mike M Fendley" > Art, > After looking at those fabulous Lewis shaper pix that you posted the link > to, I've come to the conclusion that my friend's Dvorak shaper (that > clearly has Dvorak cast in the door) is in actuality a Lewis shaper! > However, I need some ways of identifying it. First the Dvorak has the > same elevation screw on the side (and I've never seen that in another > shaper type). It is a 10" shaper, but it's box table can rotate side to > side. Can the Lewis do that? The drive on the side with the big crank > pin and the pulley shaft locations - identical to the Dvorak. Were the > ratchet mechanisms different from machine to machine? The Dvorak is > similar but a little more exotic than what the pictures show. The Dvorak > has a large hollow cast iron base that it sits on. It also has sort of a > hinged table that comes off the back for the drive motor. That looked > added on but was substantial and solid. We were thinking of cutting a > door in the side of the base and putting the drive motor there so as to > save space off the back end. The ram looks the same as well. Are there > numbers on the castings anywhere? Seems to me you mentioned that in past > postings (but I've deleted them.) The Dvorak did not have a vise (sorry > to get your hopes up.) My friend is on vacation and gets back in Oct. > If you can get me some sure fire ways of identifying a Lewis, we can at > least put the Dvorak name where it should be . . . next to (or under) the > name Lewis. By the way the shaper is in pieces, cleaned, but not primed > or painted yet. And then there is "some assembly required." Mike in Iowa Mike, the surest way I know to identify a Lewis is the number "603" cast into the top of the ram. I don't think the Lewis even came with a door. It was supplied as a set of rough castings, or semi-finished rough casting of castings. As it says in their 1942 catolog "This unit, as with our milling machine, is available as a semi-finished machine. In this...set we have doone all the planing, milling, boring and other machine work that cannot be done on a small lathe and drill." I suspect that your friend's Lewis was build by a very capable HSM named Dvorak who cast his own door and personalized it. Mario ------- Date: Sun, 28 Sep 2003 15:30:36 -0000 From: "Art Volz" Subject: Re: Art, is the Dvorak shaper a Lewis shaper? Mike in Iowa Mike--The correct Lewis OEM door is as seen in the current eBay Lewis shaper PIX. It's flat and has no name on it. (Unless the door you have is like Mario's after-market "fried egg" door where it would have in cast lettering "Lodge" and directly underneath, in semi- circular lettering, "USA 3SK". The door on my Lewis is exactly the same as the eBay Lewis and of cast iron. As Mario suggests, the door you have with "Dvorak" cast-in lettering was either made specially by the person building that Lewis kit or, perhaps, it was liberated from one of the "Last of the Mohicans": the now extinct Dvorak-9.625. > However, I need some ways of identifying it. First the Dvorak has the > same elevation screw on the side (and I've never seen that in another > shaper type). The elevating screw on the left side is a definate Lewis characteristic. I, also, have never seen that design on another shaper. > It is a 10" shaper, but it's box table can rotate side to > side. Can the Lewis do that? The Lewis' table is mounted to the traversing apron with a huge bolt which, by design, allows it to rotate. Some Lewis', like mine, were modified when built so that a horizontal about 1/2-inch square key, of table width, secured/aligned the table horizontally for normal operations. Loosening the bolt and removing the key allowed, then, the table to be rotated and re-clamped at the angle desired. The Lewis' were 10-inch shapers--it was the only shaper that they made. The drive on the side with the big crank > pin and the pulley shaft locations - identical to the Dvorak. Were the > ratchet mechanisms different from machine to machine? The Dvorak is > similar but a little more exotic than what the pictures show. From Lewis to Lewis, there are variations where the kit builder wanted to "improve" and show his "design genius". Normally these variations can be seen in the steel parts and not (other than cutting off and "styling") in the OEM provided cast iron parts. >The Dvorak > has a large hollow cast iron base that it sits on. It also has sort of > a hinged table that comes off the back for the drive motor. That looked > added on but was substantial and solid. I have seen one Lewis (was that yours Lew?) that had been mounted on a substantial cast iron base. Such a base was NOT provided by the Lewis Machine Tool Company. Going thru my library holdings I identified that base as most likely coming from the cast iron base, at the headstock end, of either a Flather (Nashua, N.H.) l6-inch screw machine or a 26-inch turret head chucking lathe, both offered starting in 1893. Motor mountings, and counter-shafts, and reducing pulley trains, were not offered by Lewis--they felt, apparently, that anyone (school shops or hobbyists) who could build one could figure out how best to power it on their own. They offered no suggestions whatsover, so that all of the Lewis' that I have seen are totally different in this reqards. > We were thinking of cutting a door in the side of the base and > putting the drive motor there so as to save space off the back end. That sounds like a winner. If the base casting doesn't have a door (the Flather did) go for it. What might be cool--I have one mounted on my shop door, but haven't cut the hole thru yet--is to use a large brass hinged port hole taken from a boat--or an olde derelict Mississippi packet. That would add some local flavor since Old Man River flows right outside the door of the Gray Bus...unless it's flowing thru it. :-) >The ram looks the same as well. Are there > numbers on the castings anywhere? Seems to me you > mentioned that in past postings (but I've deleted them.) The number cast on the front top of the ram, and readible from the left front side of the shaper, is "603". (If your "Lewis-Dvorak" is an extremely early version with ram box-slideways, like Kay F's, it might not have that number cast-in.) In bad light, or with too many coats of paint, the "3" can sometime appear to be an "8", but I can assure you that the correct part number for the ram IS "603". As far as cast-in markings--numbers or letters--the "603" on top of the ram is all there is. I made several mock-up doors (and Mario's fried egg one also) for the Lewis using for one the scripted Lewis logo that appears on the cover of some of their catalogs. Both this mockup and Mario's fried egg door can be seen here in "Photos" at the album entitled "Art's Doors". If there was any interest I would pursue further the feasibility of casting a limited number of such a scripted "Lewis" door, maybe in the form of a cast aluminum or ZA-12 medallion to affix to the standard flat Lewis door. >The Dvorak did not have a vise (sorry to get your hopes up.) DARN IT!! And here, in anticipation, I had started to get goose bumps! >My friend is on vacation and gets back in Oct. > If you can get me some sure fire ways of identifying a Lewis, we can at > least put the Dvorak name where it should be . . next to (or under) the > name Lewis. By the way the shaper is in pieces, cleaned, but not primed > or painted yet. And then there is "some assembly required." I can help you with the assembly process and dimensioned sketches of parts that you may need to fabricate. Also, just down the river, a league or two from you, is Mario's Lewis in Santa Luigi. Art in Houston, Republic of Texas...and wondering if I should scramble up some cackle berries and "Freedom Toast" (ex French) for nooner grub B4 the ball games start. I've got a couple spare NIB six- inch skillets...just itching to be seasoned before they too spend eternity as doors...doors on Lodge shapers. ------- Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2003 03:57:27 -0000 From: "Art Volz" Subject: Vernon Shaper PIX: 11-inch & 12-inch., plus other Vernon Machine Tools I have created a "Photo" Album entitled "Vernon Machine Tools" at our alternative site: http://www.groups.yahoo.com/group/Metal_Shapers_Pix Vernon machines pictured are both the 11-inch and 12-inch shapers, the Model 0 horizontal milling machine, and the combination vertical milling machine & jig borer. When Sheldon acquired Vernon, these machine tools were then re-labeled Sheldon-Vernon with, apparently, little if any modification or improvement. Art (Houston) ------- Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2003 20:47:13 -0000 From: "Peter Verbree" Subject: Peter's great Planer adventure!! Hello All! I really went and did it this time :-)) I traveled 2500km, 26hrs driving to pick up a "cherry" (rose colored glasses firmly installed) 12"x12"x30" Pratt and Whitney Planer It will need a little work (yeh right) to get it going, but how many of you guys can admit to owning a planer? (GLOAT!!) I've posted a couple of pictures on my web page for anyone who is interested. I've also posted a couple of pictures of Frank Dorion's little "Wormwood" Planer, and when I figure out how to do it I have a couple of video clips of it in motion. It's just too cute!! we even had it making chips on saturday! Cheers Pete http://www.angelfire.com/sc3/shapeaholic/index.html ------- Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2003 21:42:29 -0000 From: "theleblondman" Subject: Re: Peter's great Planer adventure!! Thats wonderfull, a dream come true. . Well dream or fantasy . I have been having a recurring daydream about owning an old planer too. I saw some movie lately that had some activitys going on in the basement of an old stone castle there were large hanging cast iron firepots hanging from well sooted chains and it seemed blacksmithing going on . . I could visualize on old planer being in the background. Then in keepng with the Errol Flynn type of action ( heroic atheletic sword fights ) and ALWAYS a damsel in distress . .. . . I thought how intersting it would be to have the action to revolve around the distressed lady tied to the table of a slowly moving planer. . . Automatic downfeed activated for sure. Well so far I have a very old Pratt & Whitney 10" shaper that I'm somewhat love with Just received my 3 hp VFD for the lineshaft driver motor. My basement looks kind of like a stone cave and my wife can easily act distressed so I ask her If she would pose for a photoshoot and a video session . Almost blowed it though making some comment about an antique woman to go with an antique shaper would look good together . . . with some fast talking convinced her I ment that in 'bout 40 years when she's 'bout 90 she'd still look great in a photo with an antique shaper She says yes she'll cooperate in anything I dream up . . Main problem now is lack of power downfeed. I'll to get started painting that thing black LOL Dave ------- Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2003 22:04:23 -0000 From: "stevenson_engineers" Subject: Igor is alive !!! I went down to London today to pick this Elliot 14" shaper up. Decent trip down but when I got there no Elliot. The guy had made a mistake in describing the machine, easily done as Elliot's were a big Machine tool dealer here in the UK, he'd read the agents plate and not the big ALBA cast in 6" high letters on the side !! Also I have no idea where he got the 14" from as the model is just listed as Alba 4M but the ram scale is clearly marked at 18" So I set off expecting an Elliot 14" weighing in at about 3/4 ton and finished up with an Alba 18" at about a ton and a quarter. That made the truck grunt. Steady ride back and I had to take the vise, the bed box and the ram off before the crane could manage it. Got it dropped into position, box, vise and ram back on, wired up and Igor was alive again. Only had time for a quick play because I had to do some emergency jobs before I could get this machine in place. Customers are a right pain in the ax~xx#$. Runs nice and smooth and quiet. Pic of the machine installed at:- http://homepage.ntlworld.com/stevenson.engineers/lsteve/files/alba1.jpg The machine behind this is a Butler 6" vertical slotter. Pic of the cutting. http://homepage.ntlworld.com/stevenson.engineers/lsteve/files/alba2.jpg This is a block of steel 3" wide and the cut is 1/4" deep. On the other end the cut was 3/8" but the tool was a little blunt. John S. ------- Date: Sun, 19 Oct 2003 20:59:05 -0000 From: "Art Volz" Subject: Davis & Egan Shaper in Sydney, Australia In Metal_Shapersx~xxyahoogroups.com, "Greg N." wrote: > Not boasting yet but how does a 15" Davis & Egan shaper with vice, > for $50AUS sound ? > Due to forgetting batteries for the new-fangled camera, all i've > ended up with so far are pictures of the door, which can be seen here: > http://www.topnet.com.au/~hairbear/davis_egan_01.JPG > http://www.topnet.com.au/~hairbear/davis_egan_02.JPG > What i'd really like to know is how or why a machine made in > Cincinnati with a nameplate from a Scottish engineers firm, ended up > in a shed in Sydney, Australia ? > Anyway, hopefully picking up the rest of the shaper this week. > Regards, Greg N. Greg--Sounds like a super price. Send me the door forthwith for verification of authenticity: the address of the "International Center for Shaper Door Identification & Verification" will be sent to you shortly, via back-channel, along with packing and other shipping information. Remember: do EXACTLY as you are told! :-) Davis & Egan Machine Tool Co., Cincinnati, was formed 1 Sep 1896 as a reorganization of the Lodge & Davis Machine Tool Co., also of Cincinnati. The new company continued the manufacture of the machines previously manufactured by Lodge & Davis inluding their Improved 15-inch Crank Shaper which is apparently the model that you just purchased. Davis & Egan reorganized in 1898 as the American Tool Works Co., so it is probable that your shaper was made in 1896 or later. While it is known that American Tool Works continued making Davis & Egan shaper designs, it is not known whose name was cast onto the doors. Anyway, after a fire which destroyed all of the old patterns, American Tool introduced a completely new line of shapers in 1902. Illustrations of a new back geared 16-inch shaper introduced in 1900 shows that these shapers, at least, had "The American Tool Works Co., Cincinnatti, USA" cast at the bottom of their columns. All that said, I think that your shaper was probably made during the period 1896-1898 and may have been even made up to about 1902 when the patterns were destroyed. You have a piece of old American iron (probably cast in part of scrap iron from American Civil War iron clad river gun boats and their cannon--Cincinnati was a major Civil War ship yard for such steamers which fought for control of the Mississippi River) and thus you should be considerate and use moderate driving speeds along with continuous lubrication. >From the PICs of your door, it appears that the ID plate of the Scottish Engineering firm is affixed with screws to the door. This firm may have been a shaper distributor, an engineering and manufacturing company itself, or may have even been a Scottish Engineering firm performing engineering contracts (what kind??) in Australia, and perhaps in Sydney itself. You may wish to research historical records maintained within the Sydney metropolitan area to see if you can identify such a Scottish firm doing business there from the late 1890's until at least the First World War. Art (Houston) ------- Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2003 11:24:13 -0500 From: Doug Chartier Subject: Re: Re: Cincinnati shaper At 11:10 AM 10/25/2003, you wrote: >What a unique shaper and of good size [14"]. At 1430 lbs it's not too fat >either, and should be readily transported. Was the shaper made in >France and "badged" a Cincinnati? A further bit of trivia - Cincinnati, the Cincinnati that makes the larger shapers, made different models of the same size. Not unique, I know. Their heavy duty is really heavy in addition to being a heavy duty machine. It's several hundred pounds if not a few thousand pounds heavier than similar size machines of different brands. The standard Cincinnati is still heavy. Not in the class as the heavy duty, but still as heavy or heavier than most of the other brands. The 14" has none of the bulk or appearance of the larger Cincinnati, and is no where close to the heavy duty model. As Art suggests, it may well be an import with a Cincinnati name tag, or it might be an import that was never connected with Cincinnati at all. Seems the town name doesn't have any copyrite restrictions. Doug C. Houston, Tex. ------- Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2003 16:45:14 -0000 From: "Art Volz" Subject: Re: Cincinnati shaper Pete & Doug-- Cincinnati Incorporated is the current name of the old Cincinnati Shaper company who discontinued their shaper line in 1967. See: http://e-ci.com , fone 513-367-7100. There were a lot of "Cincinnati" machine companys over the years, some with "Cincinnati" as part of their names, some with other names that just manufactured tools in Cincinnati such as the Steptoe before it went "Western". The other major shaper-ish Cincinnati company was Cincinnati Planer who didn't make shapers. They were absorbed by Giddings and Lewis now a German company owned by Thyssen- Krupp, "instrument" makers for the 1940's European dance band "Adolph & The Goose Steppers". I have panoramic B&W original photos of two years, in the late 1940's, of Cincinnati Planer's annual family picnic...like companys did in those days. Also have a copy of their "Treatise on Planers". Their old buildings and grounds are now probably a park, a high rise, a strip shopping center, or a parking lot these days--manufacturing is just too nasty to have in a self- respecting socialist city...these days...one on the Federal dole. Art (Houston) ------- Date: Tue, 04 Nov 2003 20:31:06 -0500 From: "Michael R. Roesch" Subject: Picking up my Rhodes 7" - The Saga Continues! Well folks it's time I posted this, still don't have my photos up but here's the story so far... After much groaning and moaning I (as I have said in past posts) acquired a shaper! Not just any old (and I mean really old) shaper mind you! A Rhodes 7"! Just had to have something different! Got it for the opening bid of $200 clams (that's BC for dollars) + shipping. Then got to haggling with freightquote.com on the phone for "dock to terminal" rates...to save on those pesky $100 residential delivery fees and $30-50 lift gate fees. Got it shipped to me for $158....from CT to Chattanooga, TN! (Insert grin here). The appointed day arrives, Dominion Freight Lines calls! I'm off to "sunny Rossville GA" about ten miles from my home where the terminal is located. Of course I had "help" in the form of one of my home brewing (beer) club friends. On the way I'm trying to explain what a shaper is to my buddy. He works for a engineering firm that develops artificial limbs, so you can imagine the shop there, plasma cutters, water jet cutters, EDM's, Laser Cutters, CNC, etc. I'm explaining "well you know what a milling machine can do?", "well a shaper can do it too, but it can something a mill can't!" So he bites and I explain in my own colorful way: "It can F**ing make square holes!" and I explained how the ram works with the clapper and tool, He finally grasps it and goes "No Sh**t?" I say "Yea, before there were EDM's, Water Jets and Laser Cutters there were SHAPERS!" I think he is truly amazed at my astute purchase! Well we arrive at the terminal, sign for the freight and roll my Jeep Grand Cherokee around to the dock. Note that I did not mention the fact that I had no trailer! My plan is to (If we have to) disassemble the shaper and load it as the base and top into my Jeep's cavernous rear cargo area! When the forklift driver brings my palletized shaper down to the Jeep, I can see that my buddy and the forklift driver both think I am nuts! The fork truck driver says "you do know this thing weighs 525lbs!" I can hardly contain myself! I only paid for 450lbs of shipping! WOO HOOO! I told the driver, "shoot that ain't much more than Uncle Bob, Aunt Irene and the kids weigh! My jeep can carry them so why not a shaper!" So we start trying to figure out how to disassemble it and my buddy grabs a tape measure, measures the height of the shaper measures the jeep and pronounces "let's lay it on it's side by TIPPING it into the back of the jeep with the FORKLIFT!" I don't know about this...after all my jeep is LEASED! But we start "easing" it into the jeep, of course those of you with forklift experience know there is no "easing" with a fork truck! So after a couple of false starts we succeed in getting it into the jeep with minimal damage, to the JEEP that is...And we are off! I'm sure the other workers at the freight terminal were taking bets on whether or not we would make it to the highway. Here's a little tip: don't load a 500+ pound shaper in your Jeep's cargo area and expect to have much "steering authority" but hey what the heck! I had a SHAPER! We were off with my buddy getting more nervous as we accelerated up the freeway on-ramp! He casually mentions that we are a little "top heavy" and he doesn't like the "shimmy" in the steering or the fact that the headlights seem to be lighting the 50' tall billboards along the highway! After a short but "exciting" trip we arrive at my house, er "shop" without incident, although if we would have rolled the jeep with that unrestrained 500lb hunk of cast iron and steel all they would have found was little pieces of us ground up by the shaper flailing around! The unload went considerably faster, just pulled it out of the back using a "cum-a-long"! I'll post photos of that soon! Did I mention that we forgot the digital camera when we went to pick it up? I think OSHA/DOT would be really interested in our loading techniques and transportation methods? Mike Roesch 13" South Bend Lathe P&W Horizontal Bench Mill Rhodes 7" Shaper LOTS of rusty files and plenty of COLD Beer! ------- Date: Wed, 05 Nov 2003 23:26:03 -0000 From: "Joe Guidry" Subject: Re: Just Chatted With Percy... Art, while in Jennings today, I met the freight truck that had your shaper, I told the fellow that I was you and he gave me the machine that way he would not to drive to Houston and you would not have to be bothered with unloading and the pain of cleaning and painting it, thanks for the toy, just trying to help, your friend, Joe Guidry ------- Date: Thu, 06 Nov 2003 16:16:36 -0000 From: "xtrucker_1999" Subject: good news and sad news first the sad news yesterday at an old shop auction we saw a 5ft x 5ft x 12ft (dimensions of work) POND planer sold to a scrapper for $100.00 it was in perfect working order with 4 heads another vintage machine gone. BUT we did save a 1912 16" G&E shaper with the original vise a 3hp motor and 4 speed drive all gearbox. my buddy john is REALLY happy and we got it for $60.00. unloaded it last night, oiled everything, hooked it up to his 10hp phase convertor and she was a strokin. gears are quieter than my G&E. we were laughing because i paid $200 for mine 1 1/2 years ago without a vise or drive. stuff happens. dt ------- Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2003 03:22:02 -0000 From: "Russell Sauer" Subject: Lewis shaper, and now Smith & Mills The last time I posted was on 4-17-02, when I aquired a Lewis benchtop shaper. At the time I also looked at a Smith & Mills 16 inch shaper that was originally a lineshaft machine and did not have the correct vice. I decided to wait for another one to come along while I was looking for a lathe. I went to an auction last weekend and bought a nice looking, and more complete, Smith & Mills 16 shaper. The shop that closed had been a 3 generation business for 77 years. I may have paid too much for it ($325), but it was worth it to me because the vise and the handles for machine operation are there. 2 tool holders were also with it. The only thing I did not get was the wrench/handle for the vise. This machine was also originally set up for a lineshaft, but now has a 2 HP electric motor, a Borg Warner clutch and a transmission bolted to it. Also someone made a bolt on extension to the front of the base casting with a support to the table. The modifications take away from the originality of the machine, but also make it more useful. The shaper is stored at a friend's building until spring when construction of my new workshop will be done. I still have not finished the restoration of the Lewis shaper, although I am very close. ------- Date: Sat, 22 Nov 2003 17:34:33 -0000 From: "Art Volz" Subject: Bertram Shaper, Dundas, Ontario: PLEASE RESCUE BERT!!! "Peter Verbree" wrote: > Bertram may have been made here in Canada. But most probably English. > We have a small machine tool industry centered around the Guelph > Ontario area. Most are now gone,(surprised??) Pete-- Just did a quickie web search and located where, and by whom, the Betram shaper was most likely built. (See: http://www.owwm.com/MfgIndex/detail.asp?ID=97 ) Apparently the company started off building woodworking machines but then made machine tools as well. Stayed in business until just a few years ago. Dundas, Ontario, is only 50 clicks, or 30 miles, SE of Guelph, Ontario, so it's in the same area of Canada where such machines were built. Note that there were 2 books written about John Bertram and the company: I'm starting to look for MY copies today--catch me if you can! :-) Art (Houston: 70F and sunny with still a half hour B4 noon. Today will be an open shop door afternoon with college football blaring on the ray-dee-oh! I'll be the only pot belly glowing there.) ------- Date: Wed, 03 Dec 2003 16:00:32 -0000 From: "Art Volz" Subject: Re: south bend pics copied > Art, You are right, I paid 850 for my SB and at the time G&G had two, > both pristine. I bought the newer model with the auto-lube and the older > one was purchased by a fellow Texan. It was soooo nice I just couldn't walk > away and I already owned four others. I must admit that was the most I > paid for one and that the normal price here in Florida is 300-500. > How many is too many ?? Rick -- One can NEVER possess too many shapers. Sort of like mountains to an insatiable climber: climb one, you just gotta climb another...and then another...and.... Now I'm looking for another small shaper--small is the way to go because of my space crunch--preferably another traversing head, but WITH an OEM Whitworth QR. I don't even know that one exists...or ever did...that will make the quest, itself, just that much more keen...and the discovery that much more sweet. I love Kenneth Cope's "American Planer, Shaper and Slotter Builders"! In the olden days, a well-torn Sears' or Monkey's "Wish Book" resided in the "reading room; in mine, today, resides a well-worn copy of Ken's illustrated "Wish book". There are just so many that I yearn for: Hendey's c. 1892 portable electric motor driven shaper, that you bolt to whatever you need to shape, would be oh, so kool! Its overhead exposed brushed commutator would sparkle so brightly as it spun the double belted drum with two belts at its rear, one twisted for reversing stroke direction, and then driving a worm geared speed reducer which alternated rotation to the pinion that directly reciprocated the ram via a toothed rack. Just to see those belts being slipped back and forth, swish and swoosh, swish and swoosh.... And, then, an eccentric QR horizontally geared shaper would add novelty as would Jacob Hangoczky's c. 1899 10-inch benchtop manual that weighed only 70 lbs (UPS-deliverable), or, the even lighter Ideal Machine Works c. 1906 4-inch bench planer capable of planing a work piece 5-inch wide. But, then, for the really jaded collector, how about a Burke c. 1907 7-inch hand shaper, designed by S.N. Malterner, that weighted a mere 150 lbs. Then I would need to get a Burke horizontal mill as well.... (Soon I should be clutching in my hot sweaty paws two c.1900 Burke catalogs and then...the eye feasting really begins!) NEVER, are there EVER, too many...to possess...and then the next...to quest for...and to covet. Art (Houston) -------- Date: Wed, 03 Dec 2003 10:59:05 -0500 From: Bob Colquitt Subject: replication of the Drummond 7" shaper? (long?) While browsing Tony's British lathe site, I chanced by the shaper area & looked at the one offered by Drummond years ago - chunkily nice IMO.... The hole thru the body for long material & the mechanism for advancing the table off the long rod which the ram handle pivots stood out. Also the swivel head vise for irregular shapes. I've downloaded the pics & am starting to see if I can determine enough of the dimensions to make a "Bolt-together" using 3" or 4" channel with 3/8" to 1/2" plate sides & base. It looks a lot beefier than the Gingery & others in it's size. A half size might be made with 2" channel & 1/4" plate Make a bearing from a piece of DuraBar CI 1" x 4" x 8" for the ram to slide in. Local welder has 1/2" x 3" bar & get a length of 1.5" or 2" sq 1/4" wall tube off eBay for the ram. Wandering thru James Riser's site, I happened onto his rebuild of his Elgin lathe & the polished steel spindle nose & guard - at bottom of page. Brain cell clicked & I thought of just using 2 hard brass wear strips with oil grooves, 1" x 8" x 1/4" (16 sq in of wear surface), instead of a CI bearing for the ram to ride on. Make the ram plate long enough so the ends don't act as a scraper. How well would a ZA-12 bearing hold up? Instead of of the ram handle slot, use a link. Motorizing - the Perfecto 5 rear mount design is simple - picked up a healthy hand grinder gearbox at the flea market this past summer. How often are a universal table sides used, say like on an Atlas 7"? Looking at the Atlas parts list, it does not rotate. If I go with a universal, I'd use Joe Romig's design from PMSN 1924(?) which allows some canting of the table and add an outboard end support. Thoughts on a Wednesday AM - NOAA is forecasting possible snow tomorrow - think winter is around the corner for this part of western VA.... Bob Colquitt ------- Date: Wed, 03 Dec 2003 17:14:54 -0000 From: "Art Volz" Subject: Re: Wilkinson Planer [was on e-bay] Tom -- Gorgeous! I lifted the PIX and posted them at http://www.groups.yahoo.com/group/Metal_Shapers_Pix . Those are also some of the best and most detailed PIX I have seen of a small planer too. The motorization of the original overhead belt drive was well done and retained the original twisted slipping belt reversal mechanism. Its a small planer too, as planers go, and would fit well into my machine shop after evicting a couple two-three woodworking machines: maybe an 8-inch and a 10-inch Craftsman (Atlas) c. 1950's table saws and a c. 1980 Craftsman (Emerson) radial arm saw. (I NEEDS a'nutha bldg!!!) It is just too far for my aging carcass to go for: 3750 miles round trip or a solid week of just driving 500+ mile days...in my also aging 125K mile Quest. Heck, I'd run outta Lone Star way before then. And, it would look so spiffy in antique royal purple...or maybe the mauve of the gay nineties & pinstriped in golden leaf. Now, if it could just get freighted on board the Trans-Canadian- Express (along with Nova Scotia Bertie)...it could be clickety- clacked in less than a week's travel time (would have to recuperate for a fortnight at Banff, though, enroute) to the West Coast and the waiting arms of Don K. or Bill F. Art (Houston) ------- Date: Sat, 06 Dec 2003 01:44:04 -0000 From: "tom kearns" Subject: Re: Wilma ist Wunderbar!!! >"tom kearns" wrote: > > --Art > > Glad you enjoyed pix, some of the belting is from mm, the rest > > came from a local dealers stock. The mm belt is good stuff > > but expensive, the dealers is not as good and I have had > > problems with it stretching, though it seems to have stabilised. "Art Volz" wrote:> Tom-- > McMaster offers both the cheaper (stretches) and more expensive > (doesn't stretch) belting: "Monkey" got the non-stretching higher > price spread, but the overall length was short compared to the > lengths that you needed. Did you need to obtain several lengths of > belting to splice together in order to get long enuf belts? When > you installed your belting, did you put the twisted one in first and > then the straight one to fit? Was it hard to obtain equivalent > tensioning of both belts? Art Bought one long length of belt, measured it in place cut it a little short, hung it but not on the pulleys, spliced it and then forced belt on pulleys. Don't know how even the tension actually is but it seems ok. When I did it I didn't have much info on shafting and belting , when I redesign I'll figure out some kind of adjustment. According to the books I've aquired my belts are about minimum practical length but I don't have room for longer. I don't remember wich one was done first but I don't think it would matter. > >The pulleys are not crowned and neither are the jackshaft ones. > >The center pulley is the driver, the two outside are idlers. > >Up top are a pulley same diamater but twice as wide for foward > >stroke and one twice diameter and width for fast return. > >I like the laced belts because they're quieter and the > >alligators caused problems with the belt shifter. > > Hadn't thought about the Alligator clips interference with the > shifter, but you're right. The leather lacing looks a > lot "groovier" though anyway. I'm going to have to make up a small > demo model of the twisted belt reverser & QR mechanism--it would > make a nice coffee table running model...maybe with double colored, > front and back, Mobius style belting to add a bit of > distraction: "Ahhh........HUH??" > > > > I do use a1725 motor but I had to do major speed reduction to > > the jack shaft, that table moving at speed is really scary. > > The return belt is twisted to give reverse direction, after I > > set all this up I found some books on planers that said I should have > > twisted forward belt instead. That would probably reduced belt > > slip when table changes direction but I haven't had time to try it > > yet.I'm not happy with the shaft setup I built so if I ever > > get around to it I'll try to build it right. > > Interesting. I'm going to have to remember that: "Twisted Belt = > Ram Belt". Is your motor reversible? Yes I can switch wires internally to reverse direction. > > Wilma does pretty nice work and she's fun to watch ! > > I'll try to get some pix of the overhead drive if the wife > > will let me use her camera. > > My wife has a camera too. I've learned not to ask...especially not > to snap "Cheese Cake" with it in MY shop. > One other note, does your table just sit in place held down by > gravity and kept in lateral position by the table's underneath rack > and drive pinion? Is there any adjustment on the V-slides or > ways...any gibs, or anything? (I didn't see any in the PIX.) It > looks like the table just hunkers down as it wears. I've heard > stories about some tables/beds wearing non-uniformly because only > one end of the table was primarily used. If you you look really close at the edge of the table in photo #1 you can see that lower portion is a slightly different color, this is a strip that attaches to the table and under the v ways. This keeps the table from upending at either end of its travel. There is no apparent way to adjust any of this. I've tested Wilma according to R. H. Smith, Advanced Machine Work (Lindsay publications) and she seems to have no apparent wear, or defects. Even though I ran her by pulling the belts over by hand several times I had visions of the table flying off to its doom the first time I turned on the power. I don't know what originally was considered apropriate hp for her, but I'm using a #3/4 hp motor with no problems yet. Tom ------- Date: Fri, 05 Dec 2003 21:58:09 -0000 From: "Art Volz" Subject: Canadian Bertram Shaper (Info Update) Just received the June 1949 issue of "Machine Production & Canadian Mill Supply" magazine (Vol. 8, No. 6) which was (at that time) printed by The Monetary Times Printing Company of Canada, Ltd., 341 Church St., Toronto 2, Ontario, with phone ELgin 8416. It is a 72- paged (covers included) 5-1/2" x 8" (approx) sized trade magazine. On page 7 is a full page two-color (black and red) ad from The John Bertram & Sons Co., Ltd., of Dundas, Ontario, with distributors (apparently) in Toronto, Montreal, Winnipeg, Walkerville, and Vancover. At the page top is the Bertram logo, a white capitalized sans serif "BERTRAM" within a black egg-shaped background, with both a white and then a black outer periphery "ring". Beneath the logo, in larger and slanted capital sans serif streamlined black lettering, is "TIME SAVER" over an even larger, but serif, "SHAPERS". And, then, a half page sorta-isometric photo illustration of the Betram shaper from the right, right front. Whereas Nova Scotia Bertie sports a universal table, the one in the ad does not. The copy further states that the shaper was "Made in 26" - 32" - 36" Sizes". Bet Bertie is numbed to his bull gear by now 'neath the snows of the Canadian Northeast. When will the slow boat from China arrive? Art (Houston) -------- Date: 13 Dec 2003 15:05:23 -0000 From: Art Volz Subject: Hewes and Phillips shaper No 34 Hewes & Phillips Iron Works, Newark, NJ, started production of machine tools, to include shapers, slotters and planers, about 1861 and ceased just prior to 1901. Although Copes doesn't mention it in his book, the open side, horizontally geared, shapers used a pair of eccentric gears to achieve their quick return action. Shapers included a 9-incher introduced in 1880 and improved in 1882, and a 15-incher closed column introduced in 1883. Thanx to Doc for re-pointing me to this page at-- http://practicalmachinist.com Anyone have, or seen, one of these shapers? Art (Houston) ------- Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2003 20:01:08 -0000 From: "Art Volz" Subject: Shape Your Own Slab Side Silhouette Shaper With QR Wanna make your own shaper WITHOUT all dem castings? Use a modified import angle plate for a table? If so, why not make a repro-copy of this 1884 slab-sided silhouette shaper patented on 23 September 1884. The non-box column could be fabbed from a plate of aluminum, steel...or maybe beryllium-copper if you have a slab of it stashed somewhere behind your Logan-7. This dude is horizontally geared in vertical stages with the resulting quick return motion very similar to the Whitworth. This would make a durn pretty little 3-incher, with a highly polished aluminium column, to set onto of YOUR coffee table. This patent was assigned to George Juengst & Sons, which formed about 1884 in Croton Falls, NY, to build such shapers. To view the detailed illustrations of this beauty I will take you on a short journey into the Belly of the Bureaucratic Beast of Beasts ("B-4"): the United States Patent Office. Strap on your seat belts, yell "Fill Your Hands!!", and gallop head-on into the cavernous black hole not of Calcutta: (Follow the following instructions exactly or you'll get ETT and will have to go back to "Start".) Instructions: --Click on: http://patft.uspto.gov/netahtml/srchnum.htm . --Enter the number 305520 into the "Query" box. ("305520" is the patent number of this shaper.) --Click onto the "search" button . --When the first page opens, click onto the red "Images" box at the top. You should now have the patent on your screen starting with the drawings. Note that there are 3 pages total with the patent description being on the other 2 pages. Enjoy! Make one for your wife for Christmas. Decorate it with dangling colored balls and flashing lites. After Xmas leave it on the coffee table...just pack away its flashin' balls. If you survived the previous perilous expedition into the Belly of the Bureaucratic Beast of Beasts unscathed, are you ready for another? Did you bring back the golden treasure that you discovered in one of the tunnels? You should have found these magic golden numerals and put them into your knapsack: 409/331. Those are CCL's or the magic numbers that unlock the first door to the shaper stuff...and more numbers...and more...and more. Gettin' fun? You didn't know that the U.S. Guv had a role-playing action adventure game site, did you...other than Bad-gag and Aft-fanny-Stan? Again, some pesky instuctions: --Click on: http://patft.uspto.gov/netahtml/search-bool.html . --In "Term 1" box enter: 409/331. --In "Field 1" box select: "Current US Class". --In "Select Years" box select: "1790 to 1975 (PN and CCL only)" --Click on "Search" . A list of some shaper patents amazingly appear on screen--click on the blue numbers to view. Be sure to collect those other "associated" CCL magic numbers...to expand your adventure game search to other dank rooms deep within the bowels...of the beast. It may be a beast, but it's OUR beast. Art ------- Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2003 21:36:33 -0000 From: "Art Volz" Subject: Klopp Shaper Revisited Back in the beginning of time, Mac and I discussed the Klopp shaper that was on eBay at that time. Afterwards (search "German Kloop") Mac posted a msg and a photo here of such a shaper. The Klopp shaper featured a so-called "friction drive". Today, I found the Patent No. for this drive which was assigned to F. Klopp of Germany on 21 December 1954. View at US Patent Site (see "how-to" several msgs before this one) as Patent No. 2,697,383. Art (Houston) ------- Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2003 18:16:16 -0000 From: "Art Volz" Subject: More Elliptical Interlocution--Re: Hewes and Phillips shaper Some more neat stuff for that elliptically driven QR shaper you're dreaming of building...for your wife for Christmas to set atop YOUR coffee table: (I'm starting to think that the small benchtop shaper that we previously discussed--the one at PRIME with the horizontally adjustable ram angle head--probably had horizontal drive gearing, either with elliptical-eccentric gears or with the vertically stacked Whitworth-esque QR type.) --One of the few technical books that delves into the design of non- circular gears: Faydor L. Litvin. (1994). "Gear Geometry and Applied Theory". Prentice-Hall. --Watch these coupled elliptical gears pirouette. Change their properties and their direction of rotation. Amuse yourself all day: http://www.ies.co.jp/math/java/conics/elgear/elgear.html . --And then there are elliptical-eccentric pulleys. Maybe these would be easier to teeth and couple together with timing belts: http://www.nanni-ingranazzi.com/pul-uk1.html . Think conically--don't be a Roundhead...who caused Charles the 1st to to lose his! Art (Houston) ------- Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2003 02:44:51 -0000 From: shapeaholicx~xxyahoo.ca Subject: New Planer Pictures!! I have just finished posting a group of very detailed pictures of "ANOTHER" S.P. Wormwood Planer complete with the planer chuck!! These were sent to me by Mr. Dick Parker, of Connecticut. Dick indicated that he inherited the planer from his great grandfather! It looks very original, with a neat shop built under-drive mechanism. Pictures are at my webpage: http://www.angelfire.com/sc3/shapeaholic/index.html Hopefully we won't run out of bandwidth this time!! Regards from the great white north Pete AND... I forgot to say that I have made some progress with the P&W planer. Thanks to Mr. Larry Galvin who sent me some miter gears he was able to salvage, I now have the mechanism that raises the crossrail working. THANKS LARRY! I have posted a picture on my site of this as well http://www.angelfire.com/sc3/shapeaholic/index.html ------- NOTE TO FILE: Nah, this was not a posting about shapers. It is from the OldTools user group mentioned on my website. Some Galoots there have an annual tradition of submitting their addresses for a Galootagift exchange from their secret Galootaclaus. Four points for the shaper group. This is a bunch of kindred spirits that enjoy old tools as much as we do and definitely discuss matters of interest to any metal and/or wood worker. You might want to drop by and see some of their postings. It proves that hoarding of old tools is not confined to shaperholics. Wouldn't receiving a gift shaper in the mail be one heck of a fine surprise? (For the mail deliverer too :-) What a neat name for members. [I'm Steve, and I am a Galoot.] ********** Subject: Galootagift From: JPagonax~xxaol.com Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2003 11:48:15 -0500 I got home last night to find my galootagift waiting for me. Jim O'Brian sent me a crispy molding plane. I'm not sure of the name of the profile, but it is similar to an ogee. It is like a 1/4" wide quarterround inside of a 5/16" x 5/16" rabbet. Very cool, and a profile I didn't previously have in my squadron of planes. Jim couldn't tell me much about the plane, but I'm pretty sure that it was craftsman made. The only markings on the body were owner's mark, including a very neat stamp that said, "J. O'Brian". So Jim, did you make that stamp or buy it? Either way, give us some details. I'd love to get one of my own. BTW, I did a count last night. Including the new moulder, but not including the woody jack I'm in the middle of making, I'm up to 89 planes. I wonder if I might have a plane problem? Nah. David Sobel Tampa, FL ------- Date: Wed, 07 Jan 2004 00:10:43 -0000 From: "dreilanderecht" Subject: New Shaper I have just taken delivery of a new shaper, a 14 inch Alba. When I say new ...it has never been assembled so is unused, although I guess new is probably not really the right word for a machine that I suspect is over sixty years old. This one is a flat belt drive machine, and came with the countershaft, fast and loose pulley and so on. I doubt if machines were being made like that after WWII. Since it is in pieces, there is of course some risk that bits might be missing, although all the major parts seem to be there, including a Jones and Shipman vice to suit. I will of course be doing a bit of cleaning and sorting. It has been sitting under somebodies house for many years. I think he must have intended to turn it into a mill since there is a fabricated piece to fit the ram end rather like a vertical attachment for a mill, but with no quill etc. One of the machinery dealers bought the equipment from the estate...there was a lovely Boxford lathe that I took for new stock when I first walked past it. The shaper was part of what they got, and I think they were happy to see it find a good home as it was taking up space they needed. Anyway, I got it for $250 New Zealand...that is about USD 125. So now as well as the AMMCO, I have the ten inch, the 14 inch, and the 18 inch Alba. Anyone know where I can get the 24 inch one to round out the set? regards John ------- Date: Wed, 07 Jan 2004 10:00:37 -0000 From: "dreilanderecht" Subject: Re: New Shaper...more details I had to take the family out for the afternoon, so wasn't able to get into looking at the new beast too much straight away, just unloaded it and then away. But having returned I just managed half an hour of investigation, and have established that the paint is actually olive drab. That helps make things a bit clearer...I was wondering why anyone would buy a shaper and then never use it. So...I will never be able to confirm this, but my hypothesis is that this machine was part of the build up in this part of the world for the invasion of Japan. Lots of materiel was accumulated in New Zealand and the Pacific Islands for this, and of course as we all know it fortunately did not have to take place in the manner expected. So eventually a lot of stuff went on the disposals market. Some much later...I was buying stuff in the sixties that was still around then. So somewhere around that time, somebody in the army stores decided that even if they did ever want a shaper, they wanted a newer one than a forties vintage Alba. So the last owner would then have bought it, and it would appear that he bought it with the intention of making a vertical mill out of it. I have the quill housing and what I assume is the partly machined quill shaft. This project was never finished, possibly because he found he had access to a real mill. I know he had access to a horizontal mill because he made some T nut blanks with it. There are about eight that only need tapping, plus a stick of T shaped material, all showing the distinctive marks of a horizontal mill. I think that in fact this machine would have been assembled at least once, at the factory, and the bearing for the drive shaft does have the look of having had something rotate inside it, although not enough to polish more than about twenty percent of the area. I can't really imagine that they would have simply made all the parts and then crated them up without a trial assembly. Everything else looks as if it has never run. The ring for the toolpost shows no sign of having had a tool clamped in it. The parts still look as if they have the remains of some sort of antirust preparation, although some parts do have the odd spotting of rust. Nothing serious, certainly less than my bigger Alba. So far I haven't found anything missing, although of course that does not cover screws and nuts. I may need some bits for the striker mechanism for the fast and loose pulley...I have two prongs and a piece of 5/8 shaft to move the belt, but I don't have a long lever to move them with. Also one of the brackets for the countershaft is broken, but I have both pieces and should be able to get that fixed. The flat belt is there, neatly rolled up, although I don't seem to have anything to join it with. There must have been an overlap when they were making machines with the gearbox as well as the flat belt model, since this has a plain cover on the back where the gearbox goes on my bigger one. I'll get into cleaning up and taking some photos over the next few days. regards John ------- Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2004 07:15:56 -0600 From: "Ray Ethridge" Subject: Re: Re: New Shaper...more details John, It sounds like your Alba is a great find, and even more importantly it sounds like your Alba has found it's savior! My guess as to what happened with it is what happens to innumerable machines. Someone gets it, then takes it apart with the intentions of "cleaning it up and painting it", then never gets around to putting it back together. Then the estate can't figure out what to do with the pile of scrap iron so it gets hauled off to the scrap yard. You are probably it's only hope for ever cutting metal again. How many times to we see on this board someone that comes on,. announces they are a first time owner of a shaper, and that they have gotten it mostly taken apart for "cleaning and painting". It often is accompanied with a "how do you get the doomaflachie loose from the thingamabob?" Then compare that with the number of announcements later that they have gotten it all back together and running and it is cutting great, it is a pretty small percentage. Would anyone hazard to guess what is the percentage of machines that are taken apart and never put back together again? I would bet it is close to 50%. Your Alba is indeed lucky you happened across it! Ray Ethridge ------- Date: Thu, 08 Jan 2004 10:11:42 -0000 From: "dreilanderecht" Subject: Re: New Shaper...more details > importantly it sounds like your Alba has found it's savior! I guess we should give some credit to the guys at the dealers, they knew they would make no money on it but thought it was worth at least trying to find a good home for it. I think I had better drop some beer around to keep them sweet for the next time.... >You are probably it's only hope for ever cutting metal again. I don't think this is the case. The paint on it is original, at least there is no trace around the name badge of any masking, and that is held on with those drive fasteners. There is sufficient evidence on the bearings and surfaces to show that is has been together, but it has never worked hard. The factory frosting still shows on the sliding surfaces including the ram, and the bearings only show the minimum of polishing on the high spots. I think I would revise my original theory a bit, since there is a trace of polish on the two striker prongs for the belt...so the overhead has been set up and used. That would seem to indicate that the machine has run somewhere other than just a factory test, since the factory would probably only test the machine itself. But it has certainly never run enough to inspire anyone to tear it down and rebuild it, and the paint is good enough that I do not intend to repaint it...apart from possibly removing the markings on the base, where someone has dabbed on "JHR Auckland". (Presumably the last owners initials) The paint certainly does look like the stuff the army uses around here, and that would be a likely explanation for a machine getting set up, very lightly used and then packed away. There were lots of extra bases set up during wartime. It had been packed with some sort of antirust, and with a fluffy paper sort of material. Some newspaper was used too. There is too little of this to get a date from, but it is local newspaper. So for whatever reason, the machine has been packed fairly well. I think it is probably true that the last owner never had it together. > Would anyone hazard to guess what is the percentage of machines > that are taken apart and never put back together again? I would agree with you about this, and in fact my approach of choice in general would be to get the machine going first and have a bit of fun with it before starting on the painting etc. Depends on condition of course, if there is major work needed it might make sense to do the whole lot. But with my bigger Alba, I was able to try it out a bit before making the proper foot and fixing the downfeed dovetail. I'm certainly going to try to get this machine put together as soon as possible, partly because that will tell me what is missing, and because it makes it less likely that it will suffer a sad fate. I do know that the felts are missing, but that is the worst I have spotted so far. Probably some screws may be missing, but it is kind of hard to tell since I have enough screws, studs, etc to build about six shapers. I think I got all the loose ones from the shop! I can tell that the long ones for the table are there anyway...Albas use four long T bolts to hold the table to the cross slide. One fun thing to look forward to is that the screws to hold the column onto the foot go in from underneath. I will have to assemble the bull gear into the column with the swinging arm, then get the whole lot either upside down or at least on a side or end to attach the foot. Getting it back upright will require slinging from the hoist. I can just handle the column with the sack barrow. (Hand cart in the USA?) I won't be doing much with it once I add any more parts to it! It is a joy to clean up, there is the odd bit of surface rust to remove but nothing like my larger Alba had. Mostly just removing the fluffy papery stuff. It has some nice features, for instance the system where you adjust the ram stroke. This is the same as the larger Alba, you loosen a knurled nut on the outside end ot the bull shaft, then turn a square on the end with a handle. This allows setting the ram stoke in any position, so you can do it with the pointer by the scale. Unlike the big one, this does not have the gearbox, although as I mentioned the column has a plate covering the place where it would bolt on. This one has its original table leg, and I'd have to say I think mine is better...I provided a cast iron foot to spread the load. I'll do something like that for this one too. regards John ------- Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2004 06:10:13 -0000 From: "dreilanderecht" Subject: New Shaper...Assembled My big "new" Alba is not going to be one that languished in pieces for ever. It is now assembled, and all I had to buy was a 3/4 Whitworth nut and 5 half inch Whitworth screws. Fortunately being in an English speaking country these were readily available. I will also need to make it up some new felts, since these are missing. I still have a little cleaning to do...the downfeed and toolpost are actually pretty clean, so for the moment I just put them in place. I can't try it out under power yet, since I haven't assembled the overhead gear, and I may be missing some of the striker gear from that. I don't seem to be able to persuade my teenage son to stand there turning the big pulley around. One of the brackets for the overhead is broken, although I have both pieces. I could just use it as a pattern, or I could see if it is possible to weld or braze it. Any suggestions? There is also a mystery piece, a device a bit like a large vertical slide for a lathe. although it would need to be a pretty big lathe. The table part is slotted as if for a swivel vice, and there is a matching piece that was not assembled to it, but which fits. It has a clamp to grip onto a piece of shaft or tube, and a J shaped extension with a boss with a hole in the end. Does this ring any bells with anyone? I'll try to get some photos and post them later. regards John ------- Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2004 17:05:22 -0000 From: "John Burridge" Subject: Re: New Shaper...Assembled John, Hi, You can either braze or weld the broken item; also you could Bronze weld it, which is stronger than normal braze and does not have the problem you encounter iron welding with either a cast iron filler rod or a nickel rod, you don't need to pre heat then weld then post heat bringing down the heat steadily. John Burridge ------- Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2004 14:06:51 -0500 From: Dan Subject: Re: Re: New Shaper...Assembled I have successfully welded cast iron many times, without preheating or post heating. I use the nickel cast iron rod. Also have used Inconel. Some tricks; Grind a bevel on the fracture, but not all the way across. Leave a land about 1/8 inch of original fracture area to align and hold the piece. Place a bead only one or two inches long at a time. Your heat (amperage) will generally be less for a nickel rod then it would be for the same size steel rod. Try to have the piece laying so that you are welding flat as these rods don't do so well out of position. Draw a long arc and let the rod material just drop in. Start at the end and work back to the beginning, in other words, the starting place of one bead will be the ending point of the next. Immediately after each short bead is laid down, take the pointy end of your chipping hammer and work all over the bead. Leave little dents all over it. One reference I read says ping for 5 minutes. I seldom do it that long. Your chipping hammer should have about a 1/16 inch point on it. This pinging will relieve the stress and help prevent cracking. Give yourself time so that you don't interrupt your work once you start. Let the piece warm up as you weld. When finished, place the piece in a bucket of wood ashes. Leave it a day or so. Lacking that, put the piece somewhere out of the draft and cover it with some rags. (Not oily ones, I hope.) Or whatever, just to keep the piece from cooling so rapidly. The bead should be about 2/3 the thickness of the casting. Don't try to fill the grove all the way level. 2/3 of nickel rod will have the same strength as the casting. If you try to fill all the way to the top there is a risk of the bead pulling pieces loose from the casting. Dan ------- Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 19:47:26 -0000 From: "kc1fp" Subject: Re: New Shaper...Assembled Another alternative is silver brazing. The filler is 50% silver and it wets real good and is strong. It's just a different filler material, same procedure but stronger. Most welding suppliers carry it, hardware stores don't. You can bond most metals with it except aluminum. John, The brazing or silver brazing is almost foolproof. It is softer than the cast iron and has some give to it. Clean all of the grease and oil off of the part completely. You can heat the part by going back and forth over the repair area slowly. Wrap the rest of the part in fiberglass insulation if it makes you feel any better, but it's not necessary with brazing. Use plenty of flux, there are a few types so ask at the welding house what is recommended. Flux coated rods don't have enough flux to do the job so get bare rod and external flux. Heat the repair area red and add the filler to the side of the flame tip. The metal will flow toward the heat (even if it is uphill) very similar to soldering, only hotter. You will have to dip the hot filler rod into the flux many times, maybe every inch of repair. If it begins to look ugly then just go back over it with the flame tip to smooth it out somewhat. When you are done, cover the repair with insulation and allow it to cool slowly. You will have to wirebrush off the flux residue when done. Flame tip means the blue tip. JP ------- Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2004 02:16:42 -0000 From: "dreilanderecht" Subject: Re: New Shaper...repair to bracket Thanks for all the suggestions. I will think things over before I dive in. One consideration is whether I can get a piece this big hot enough for brazing or bronzing, although I probably can if I use the propane for general heating and the oxy-acetylene torch for the actual brazing/bronzing. I don't have a lot of experience with arc welding, I guess this could be one way to get some! If all else fails I can use the good bracket as a pattern for a new one, since both are the same. Not many machined spots to build up and shrinkage would not be a great problem either. regards John ------- Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2004 02:04:16 -0000 From: "dreilanderecht" Subject: Re: New Shaper, more details While I have a moment or two, I may as well provide a bit more info about this machine for those not familiar with the Alba. This is a 14 inch machine, although curiously the stroke shown on the scale beside the ram only goes to 13. I suspect it can actually manage the full 14 although I haven't checked that yet. It can easily manage more than 14 between the lowest position of the table and the bottom of the ram. The table can do 13 inches of cross travel while fully supported, and can go another 3 or 4 inches each side if you let the table run past the end of the cross slide. So this one apparently could acccomodate the proverbial cube of metal. although I dunno how I would pay for such a cube! Lifting it onto the table would be tricky, as would holding it. It also has the machined and T slotted table on the base, allowing larger items to be bolted down there. These T slots are cast rather than machined, and there was still some original foundry sand in there. It has calibrated dials on the table lift and the cross slide, although the dials are calibrated 0 to .9 and these are not tenth inch pitch leadscrews. So some mental agility will be needed to use the dials. Still, many shapers of this vintage had no calibrations at all. The auto feed on the cross slide is the type that uses a pair of gears and a link so that the centre to centre distance between the cros feed ratchet and the crank driving it remains the same for any table position. This is a handy feature since it saves having to adjust the length of the link. The feed adjustemnt is by means of a slot and knob so that it is quite easy to swap ends to make sure the feed is on the backstroke. There is no gearbox or clutch, just the four step pullies on the mne and the countershaft, and the fast and loose pulley to take the place of a clutch. No lubrication system, apart from manual oiling points all over the place. Some have lost their lids so I must find a source of replacements. These are the sort that you used to see on bicycles with a little flip up lid. They press into a hole. I've concluded that although some of the parts are olive green, this is actually just the way the paint has gone, and that it was originally all a typical dark grey. Also I found a dealers lable on the ram under some of the fluffy stuff. This is for a British dealer, Parkes Machine Tools ltd Birmingham. Most machines sold in this country would tend to have a local agents plate, which is not to say that someone could not have ordered a machine to be shipped. So anyway, that all means that it is not as I thought at first, likely to be an ex military machine. It is quite possible that it was originally sold in Britain, possibly to someone who emigated to New Zealand and brought his machines with him. This would have been a wise thing to do since we had import restrictions and currency controls back in those days, and he might not have been able to replace them easily. But for some reason it would appear that the shaper was never reassembled after shipping. It is also of course possible that it was ordered from Britain second hand. Some odd fragments of New zealand newspaper with the bits are certainly pre 1967, which is when we got decimal currency, so it has been in storage for 36 years or more Either way, it is still a bit strange that someone would buy a machine that was quite evidently at the time in first class hardly used condition, and then never use it. I suppose if we take the date of construction as being between the 1930's and the 1950's as Tom Martin suggested on the ModelEng list, then it could well have been a machine that was regarded as a bit old by sometime in the sixties, and might have been sold secondhand at a surplus sort of price, despite the fact that it was in almost new condition So the last owner might have bought it with the idea of making a vertical mill as per the bits that came with the machine, but of course never finished the project. regards John ------- Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2004 19:23:21 -0800 From: "larry g" Subject: Re: Re: New Shaper, more details I think that you will find the oil cups at http://www.gitsmfg.com/ . They show distribution in Australia. lg ------- Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2004 03:02:40 -0000 From: "dreilanderecht" Subject: Re: New Shaper, more details...gits oilers Well, for me there is the minor difficulty of mail order from the USA... American companies are notorious for being somehow unable to do mail order to places outside the USA. But probably someone local will have them, just a matter of finding out who. Anyway, these are not a showstopper, and I will be filling up my oxygen and acetylene bottles on Saturday, so should be able to have a go at fixing the bracket as per the suggestions given. Of course I don't have a spare motor of the needed size but I guess the 18 inch shaper can lend one to the cause. It would be good to see this machine cut metal, there is quite probably nobody alive who has seen it do so. It has certainly never cut very much. Actually I'll also have to figure out where in the shop I want it, because with the overhead gear it is not going to be a simple matter to shift it if I change my mind. I suppose it would be antisocial to mount this to the beams under the area where my sons sleep! (my workshop is under the house.) regards John ------- Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2004 01:27:41 -0000 From: "Joe Guidry" Subject: shaper door fellows we might want to have someone tail Art, that shaper door thing could be a bad thing, when I got home the other day my dog said, "there was a strange man in a van that came to the shop and was looking through the window at my shaper doors", but he could not remember the license plate number, tell your dogs to get the license number. Joe Guidry ------- Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2004 08:55:07 -0000 From: volzmechatronicx~xxyahoo.com Subject: The Cincinnati Shaper Company...Today The Cincinnati Shaper Company, founded in 1898, was renamed "Cincinnati Incorporated" when they ceased (year?) manufacturing shapers. Today, they are still located in the Cincinnati area, have a work force of 500++, and still make metal cutting machinery, but equipped with laser cutters, as well as presses, press brakes, and shears. Their employees union, formed in 1939, still retains "Shaper" in their name: "The Cincinnati Shaper Independent Union". See: http://www.e-ci.com Art (Houston) ------- Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2004 09:41:52 -0000 From: volzmechatronicx~xxyahoo.com Subject: Cincinnati Planer Was Acquired by... ...Giddings and Lewis in 1948...and disappeared...just faded away. Giddings and Lewis is now a part of Thyssen AG, Krautlandia Uber Alles. (DIN is the REAL "metric system"...believe it, or not.) http://www.glcastings.com/ie/basenav/dateline.asp Art (Houston) ------- Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2004 00:45:35 -0000 From: "dreilanderecht" Subject: Re: what's going on in your shop? wrote: > who has their shaper fired up and making > chips? and what are you making? dt The main project at the moment is the steam launch engine. For those who came in recently, this is a compound, 3 inch High pressure, 5 inch low pressure, 3 inch stroke. It is nearly ready to try on air, just needs the piston rings completing and then set the timing of the eccentrics. Last bit of shaper work for it was making a little slide and crosshead for the air/water pump. This was done on the 10 inch Alba, which seems to be getting most of the shaper work lately. That Alba is going to need a little attention soon, the die block is making a little knock. Nothing serious, I think building it up with a little whitemetal will be all that is needed. It just has a few thou of slop between the dieblock and the slotted arm. The guy I bought it off 18 months back did a good overhaul and cleanup, so otherwise it is in good nick. Nothing I have done over the last few weeks has been big enough to justify using the 18 inch Alba, which has only just got its vice back with a fresh coat of paint. The two parts I have cleaned up and painted are serving as a serious incentive to clean up the rest of the machine and paint it the same. This is a bit daunting since there are few parts that I would be able to lift unaided. The 6" AMMCO is available for use, but really needs a bit of attention to the fine feed, a non original job that someone built along the way. One of my "round tuit" jobs is to build a replacement closer to the original. A lot of my jobs lately are on the large size for the Ammco. So at the moment, three of my four shapers are ready for use, although as above there are things to do. The fourth, the "new" Alba 14 inch, needs the countershaft setting up. I did try brazing the broken casting as suggested here. One of the joints does not seem to have quite the penetration I would like, so I will reheat, but then I will need to decide exactly where to put the machine and set it all up. I will also need to acquire a decent single phase motor, at least 1.5hp. Although I am kind of tempted to see if I can find a single cylinder hit and miss gas engine, it would look the part! Other things that I will be using the shapers for include the AMMCO dividing attachment that I made patterns for. I have started machining one set of castings, the base is ready for its T slot, which sadly will not be able to be done on a shaper since the end is blind. I also have a pair of castings for a replica AMMCO vice to machine up. Since this AMMCO is really old, I'd like to get it as close as possible to original condition, with a set of original accessories. In addition to the shapers, I do have a Chinese vertical mill/drill, and a Myford lathe. The mill makes a good complement to the shapers, since it gets to do the pockets and such things that a shaper cannot do, as well as drilling of course. However...I will need to buy a T slot cutter soon, and this is likely to cost about half of what I paid for my latest shaper. Those little milling cutters are a lot more expensive than what you need for a shaper. The Myford is really a bit small for much of what I am doing, but valiantly tackles things anyway. Another machine that does a lot of useful work is one of those generic 6 by 4 bandsaws, which incidently can cut things much bigger than 6 by 4 under some circumstances. Very handy. regards John In sunny New Zealand! ------- Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2004 21:35:19 -0000 From: volzmechatronicx~xxyahoo.com Subject: The Rockford Files Listed below are patents that I was able to locate at the US Patent Office ( http://www.uspto ) that were assigned to the Rockford Machine Tool Company. They may have been granted other patents under other classification numbers, but these appear to be the principle ones concerning hydraulic machine tools. They may also have used, under license, the patents of others; also some of the designs they used were probably not patentable or had expired patents. These listed patents were classified at CCL 409/329. Patent No. 2,167,890 Filed 1935/Granted 1939 Description: Hydraulic shaper with dual cylinders and with valving designed to provide for fluid surge control. Comments: This doesn't look like any "normally" encountered Rockford hydraulic shaper. Patent No. 2,223,038 Filed 1937/Granted 1940 ---and--- Patent No. 2,316,871 Filed 1937/Granted 1943 Description: Valving for hydraulic shaper. Patent No. 2,512,019 Filed 1947/Granted 1950 ---and--- Patent No. 2,542,519 Filed 1947/Granted 1951 Description: Hydraulic shaper with a novel NEW actuating system. The hydraulic cylinder rocks via trunnions as it reciprocates a lever arm like in a crank shaper. This was probably intended to be their after the war MODERN hydraulic shaper, but I doubt, other than making working models, that any were ever built for sale. The market was probably eroding fast and didn't justify tooling up for a virtually all-new machine. (NOTE: To view these patents at the Patent Office site, you will need to upload and install the free TIFF reader available there.) There are two PDF files (you will need to download and install a free copy of Adobe Acrobat reader to view) at "files" here: --"MilStdHydraulicShaper.PDF" This is the US Army's military standards required for hydraulic shapers and, apparently, was written with "collusion" authorized. Note its ram speed max requirement was 140 fpm with a retract speed of 150 fpm. Using my 2nd Edition (current 3rd 2-volume edition at $200 a set has expanded data) of the industry standard "Machining Data Handbook", the max cutting speed of only 140 fpm is marginal at best if carbide tooling is desired to be used. Most recommended starting speeds are much higher for carbide tooling. For example, a medium carbon leaded steel such as 41L30 with a BHN hardness of 150 to 200 (hot rolled, normalized, annealed or cold drawn) with a DOC of 0.100 inches and a feed of 0.080 inches a starting speed of 300 fpm for C-6 carbide tooling is recommended. --"rockfordarmy16shaper.PDF". Army TM for Rockford hydraulic shapers, specifically the 16-incher. Note: The adjustment procedures for the "choke valves" as requiring an expert. I also extracted, for further calculations, these related figures: 7HP-- 11GPM--1000PSI. Horsepower required at the cutting tool. Figure 7.9, page 874, "Average Unit Power Reguirements" of my "Machining Data Handbook, 2nd Ed.) has horsepower requirements for single point tools, carbide or HSS, for both sharp and dull tools and for various metals of varying hardness. These figures are for 80% efficiency. In general, it takes a minimum of 1 HP to cut at a MRR (metal removal rate) of 1 cubic inch per minute. Introduction of Hydraulic Drive Machine Tools. (Robert S. Woodbury, 1960, "History of the Milling Machine", Massachusetts Institute of Technology, p. 95.) "The first attempt at fluid drive was that of J. D. Potter, a clumsy machine but an outstanding first attempt. (Note that patnet application was in 1921 and was not granted until 1931.) The Cincinnati Milling Machine Company took out patents for the hydraulic drive of H. Ernst and L.F. Nenninger. (Application in 1927 but not granted until 1936.) This was followed rapidly by work of others...all of the Cincinnati Milling Machine Company." "In 1927 the Cincinnati Milling Machine Company produced the first standard milling machines to utilize hydraulic control and power drive for the feed of a milling machine table." Rockford Manufacturing Dates. The 10th Edition (1988) of the "Serial Number Reference Book for Metalworking Machinery", Hearst Business Media Corp., has serial number listings for the Rockford Machine Tool Co. starting in 1940 thru 1983. In 1988, The Rockford Line of 1435 Preston St., Rockford, Il 61102, with Fone 815-965-5463, was listed as the provider of parts and services. They have vanished. The current provider of some Rockford parts is: http://www.devliegbullard.com/rmt.html. TO BE CONTINUED. One of the next topics will be "Why hydraulic machine tools?" A possible partial answer may be "1928 era electric motors and motor controls were still pretty primitive": with quotes/examples from "Chapter XVI--Machine Tools" of Gordon Fox's 1928 engineering book "Electric Drive Practice". Art (Houston) ------- Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2004 20:06:44 -0000 From: volzmechatronicx~xxyahoo.com Subject: The Quest In October 1999, my across-the-street neighbors went on a vacation to Rome. Not wanting to stop delivery of their daily Houston Chronicle newspaper, they asked me to pick it up and dispose of it to which I agreed. I don't read the Chronicle--I have problems accepting their "factual" writings. Every now and then, though, I'll buy a Friday morning edition and scan the classified ads for "machinery". The first Friday that they were gone I picked up the delivered paper and instead of immediately tossing it into the trash I looked under "machinery". Eureka!! A 10-inch metal shaper was being offered at $240 along with a huge odd-ball vertical mill. I called. The seller said that another guy was coming from the other side of Houston to buy it about noon. I said that I would call him about one o'clock to see what had transpired. About one I called again. The other guy hadn't arrived yet, but had called and said he would be late. I asked the seller whether he still had the mill, to which he replied that he did, and I then arranged to come see it at about 3 PM. When I arrived the supposed buyer of the shaper hadn't yet arrived and hadn't called again. I looked the mill over--a gargantuan (HEAVY) obscure vertical of the WWII era--and decided that it probably needed to provide scrap iron for new machines. I then turned my attention to the shaper sitting on an angle iron stand in the rear of the garage shop. I couldn't believe my eyes: It WAS a Lewis. It looked to be one of those kits that had been purchased by a VoTech, machined and assembled by the students, and then retained in the school shop. I quickly convinced the seller, a retired South African engineer, that my $240 in his hand was better than the money from the other guy who still hadn't arrived. As we talked--and I dissassembled the Lewis into easily handled segments transportable in the rear of my van (a Quest, what else?) the seller asked "Did I give you the tool holder yet?" What he then gave me, out of the goodness of his heart, was an original Atlas adjustable tool holder. I exclaimed (this was during my pre-internet days): "These can't be found anywhere!! Thanx!!!" I did query him about the vise; he said that when he got the shaper that the vise had already disappeared. Time passed. The following spring of 2000 I finally got on board the internet. One of my first hangouts was the Chaski metalworking BB. About March a member from Detroit, Ron B., advertised a Logan/Monkey- Ward 10 x 24 lathe for sale at a reasonable price. I struck immediately, sent a down payment, and agreed to pick it up the weekend before NAMES 2000 in Detroit as I would be both visiting family in Lansing and intended to attend NAMES. I luv that lathe! And I really needed one since my c. 1890 motorized velocipede Barnes 4-1/2 had lost its Babbitt spindle bearings in a shop fire I had had about 5 years previously. Searched all the NAMES vendors tables that year and the next year, 2001, which I also attended. No one had a Lewis vise or knew of one being offered for sale. I kept my nose to the ground and my gum shoes moving. Scoured the internet for leads; religiously scanned eBay offerings on a daily basis. Nothing. I did find a Lewis horizontal milling machine vise, which is exactly one-half scale with 3-1/2 inch wide jaws of the Lewis shaper vise with 7-inch wide jaws, being sold on eBay along with a Lewis mill, but the seller wouldn't sell me that vise separately. (I still NEED a Lewis 3-1/2 inch vise for my Lewis mill...the one Burton built.) While at NAMES 2001, I was talking with Rich C. (the "Green Bay Steamer") at his table with the Chicago Model Club and I had a notebook, with PIX of the Lewis shaper, open on the table. A voice to my right exclaimed "I built one of those...back in the '40's." The 80-ish year old gent told me how he had machined a Lewis shaper from a kit of parts and that his son now had it. I asked him if he still had the blueprints for the vise. He did! Several months later I received a small envelope...with the Lewis vise dimensioned drawings within. That winter, still not getting any leads on an actual Lewis vise, I made a mock-up/working-model of the Lewis vise from the prints, modified slightly some of the parameters for simplification and ease of machining, with the intent of then making a set of patterns and having raw castings made in ductile iron. Yeah, sure! Try to find a local foundry that will do quality one-offs at reasonable prices...and then I'd have to make it. I did send the mock- up/working-model to both Marty E. (Phoenix) and Rich C. (Green Bay) for review and comment, but never went back and made the patterns. Just kept looking...and looking...and looking. I was unable to attend NAMES 2002, although I was in the Lansing area, but corresponded with Mario V. (St. Lewis/Detroit) who would be there. Got Mario to attend the "reception" that Scott always has on the Friday evening before NAMES where he met and had sudz with Peter V. (Sudbury). When Joe Mama finally acquired a Lewis shaper (October 2002) he posted a set of PIX of it at our PIX site. With Joe's shaper came a vise: an original Lewis shaper vise. I remarked, at the time, that if Joe didn't want the vise I'd immediately buy it from him an offer which he immediately refused. A few days later I received an email from Peter V. with a set of three PIX of a vise he had seen at NAMES that year. When he had taken the PIX he didn't know it was a Lewis vise, but that it was a shaper vise. He considered buying it at the time, but was unsure whether it would fit his Alba. Seeing Joe's vise, and now knowing that I was looking for a Lewis vise for my shaper, Pete sent me the email saying that he had seen the pictured vise at NAMES and that it had been offered for sale by a gentleman with the name of Ron B. who hailed from Detroit and he would try to run him down if I wanted the vise. Small world! Ron B. was the guy from whom, several years before, I had acquired my Logan lathe. I told Pete that I knew Ron and would try to get in touch with him. My old email addresses bounced. Dead end there. I wrote Ron a letter which was returned to me as he had moved--but the USPS had, fortuitously for me, printed his NEW address on the yellow return label. Time passed. Other projects/activities demanded my attention. Mario V., about Thanksgiving time, remarked that he had missed a Lewis vise at one time (Mario has a Lewis shaper too) to which I responded that he had missed TWO Lewis vises and then told him of the one that he didn't "see" at NAMES. To make a long story a bit shorter, Mario offered to "deal" with Ron B. for me and was able to purchase that Lewis vise. I had him take it home to St. Louis with him over the Christmas holidays to "try out" on his Lewis; I received that vise yesterday from Mario. It is now sitting on my kitchen table next to the painted mock-up/working model of the Lewis vise I had made several years ago: they're kissing twins. Interestingly, there is a round cornered retangular lozenge shaped boss on top of the rear jaw: stamped within is the name "D MAGILL". In the old days, machine shop students often made useful tools which they took with them and used thru out their lives. (I still have a 1"- 2" micrometer that I machined in 1960 while taking the required machine shop course in Engineering, at Notre Dame. It is one of my prized possessions.) In 1942, a set of Lewis shaper vise castings and prints were only $4.75 with quoted freight per CWT to Detroit at $3.21. The vise kit's shipping weight at 40 lbs would cost about $1.30 for a total student cost of about $6.10. Mot cheap for 1942, but affordable and a super student project. The vise that Magill made for "me" is virtually a virgin--only one "trial" errant "learning" cut can be seen on the top of the jaws. Also, Magill apparently ran out of time, as the jaw plate lengths to size are still in the process of final machining. I wonder where this vise has been for the first 60 years of its life. The vise that Mario sent to me has jaws 7-inches wide and a depth of 1-1/2 inches. The jaws open 4-1/4 inches and the vise stands at 4- 1/2 inches tall. The most amazing spec, however, is its weight: only 27 lbs as weighed on my Taylor not-too-accurate bathroom scale, but close enuf. I had expected it to weigh in at a tad below 40 lbs as my copy of the 1942 Lewis catalog listed the shipping weight of the vise kit at appoxiately 40 lbs. 27 Lbs is sweet! The 6-inch shaper- style vise that I received last week--the Chicago made vise (eBay) from J.E. Plunket who also made small IC farm duty engines around 1909-- weighed 41 lbs. Compare this light weight Lewis vise to a typical Kurt clone 6-inch milling machine vise at about 100 lbs. Generally speaking, shaper style vises are quite a bit lighter when compared to the same jaw size milling machine vises. So there you have it. A story of a quest completed...and a quest continuing: anyone know of a Lewis 3-1/2 milling machine vise for sale? It looks exactly like the PIX of my Lewis shaper vise at our PIX site (fotos from Pete V.). (See Album "Lewis Vise.) Thanx Mario! Thanx Pete! Thanx Ron! Thanx Rich! Thanx Marty! Thanx to all! Art (Elated in Houston North on a cold winter day.) ------- Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2004 22:25:53 -0000 From: "meleschko" Subject: New member [Varnamo SH-1 Shaper] After moving my half-a-ton new shaper down into my basement, I think I'm finally ready to stick my neck out and say hello to all you gentlemen (and gentlewomen if there are any?). I guess I'm like so many others in here with an interest in machinery, engines and engineering in general. Besides the shaper I have a 9x20 lathe, mill, band saw - you know the usual stuff. Here in Denmark it's for some unknown reason pretty hard to find a shaper, so naturally I was very exited when one practically fell into my lap at the cost of 100$ that including delivery! The shaper is a 7' Varnamo SH-1 Swedish machine appearing to be in excellent condition. I've created a photo album in Metal_Shapers_Pix called "Varnamo". I haven't got a focused idea of what to use the shaper for (don't tell my wife or she'll kill me) but I've always been interested in gear-cutting and maybe the dovetails on my upcoming QCTP will meet the shaper bit who knows. Anyway I've always wanted a shaper - you know how it is. I've read a bit on the subject but I must confess that I have no hands-on experience, so I guess I'll sit back listen to you guys and learn... maybe popping a foolish question now and then. Best regards PeterM ------- Date: Sun, 8 Feb 2004 06:59:44 EST From: W2GRx~xxaol.com Subject: Good day at the auction! Sometimes it just pays to get outta bed!.... First let me thank all the replies to my first post and newbe question this past week abt the shaper ..(Logan)... I hit the auction today and am the proud owner of a ES-8 ($200)(almost bought the Atlas on Ebay but would have had to drive 600 miles to get it).....it is in about mint condx. in appearance and looks like it has had little use..(still looking for the ser.#)...It has the original vice but the lathe type tool holder aint there..it is only a setup which looks like a boring bar threaded into the vertical slide...probably for cutting key ways in a gear? ...it has a Peerless ¾ HP 3ph. motor x~xx 1750 RPM...I may change this if I can cross the PW66B frame to a single Ph. motor...I will need new belts too (old and stiff)..Is there anyone/anywhere that is willing to copy/sell me a manual for this little gem?...other than a little surface rust on the table/vice its beautiful!..paint and all...will try and get pics of the stuff I bought ...oh yeah...stuff... Besides the shaper I picked up a mint Clausing Vert. Mill with vice and tooling. ($280) .. An old BPort 9x42 J w/(non Bport) powerfeed and with what must be the forerunner of DRO...it has 2 axis DTI's on the tables...and it also has the shaper attachment with it and this looks like it has never been turned on! ..I bought the Mill just for the shaper attachment..I have the mill sold thrice if I want to...may sell it and keep the shaper attachment or just sell it seperately on Ebay..dunno..I am so confused..Total?..Pd $750...I have more stuff than room!..(sound familiar?) I also bought something that I cant identify...its just the stand,base and tables of something thats missing the head..its by the K.O Lee Co. and it has Knock-Out Model A600 Ser. 626 Aberdeen SD on the tag...its some type of milling table?...has 1 t slot and the the table (approx. 5x20?)_ can be angled..it has potential but what was it for?.....The only reason I picked it up is that it went with a Dumore 1/2 HP TP grinder with 2 spindles..box, belts and wheels...the auctioneer thought it belonged with it...$150... Well enuff of my babble..I am just excited and just had to tell someone...(the Ol'Lady just looks at me funny)...time for a nap.. Mike Niagara Falls NY ------- Date: Sun, 08 Feb 2004 17:58:51 -0000 From: volzmechatronicx~xxyahoo.com Subject: Re: Logan at auction this weekend(Nice day today) Mike-- (Scott L. please note.) --- In Metal_Shapersx~xxyahoogroups.com, "w2gr" wrote: > Sometimes it just pays to get outta bed!.... > I...am the proud owner of a Logan ES-8 ($200)... Is there anyone/anywhere > that is willing to copy/sell me a manual for this gem? Scott Logan offers the later Logan shaper manual. If Scott wishes, I can send him a copy of the pages that are different for the earlier ES-8, and he can add them to the manual you purchase from him. If not, I can provide the different ones AFTER you acquire the base manual from Scott. See: http://www.loganact.com . > Besides the shaper I picked up a mint Clausing Vert. Mill with vice > and tooling. ($280) .. What number version? Manuals are available from Jolene Olds ( joldsx~xxclausing-industrial.com ). > An old BPort 9x42 J w/(non Bport) powerfeed and with what must be the > forerunner of DRO...it has 2 axis DTI's on the tables...and it also > has the shaper attachment with it and this looks like it has never Keep the shaper attachment WITH the BP mill if you can. The Clausing is a good hobbiest size machine (except for the MT2 spindle sillyness) and you should be able to sell it easily and for a profit. Might pay for your whole haul. > I also bought something that I can't identify...its just the Sounds as if you have a lot of the parts for a Lee tool and cutter grinder. Start getting this dude functional because it will save you big bucks once you need to start sharpening end mills and circular milling cutters. Start looking for a horizontal milling attachment (after-market) for your BP and it will open up a whole new world of possibilities for you. > Well enuff of my babble..I am just excited and just had to tell > someone...(the Ol'Lady just looks at me funny)...time for a nap.. Tremendous Haul!!!! Art (Houston) ------- Date: Sun, 8 Feb 2004 12:59:40 -0500 (EST) From: Woodchuck Subject: Re: New ebay item... Yeah, I'm in the stage of "blissful anticipation" between buying and picking up. I've been lurking around EBay and other seller-places, stalking a nearby little shaper for about 6 months, and finally seeing one at about 120 miles, I actually *hestitated* (woodchuck transfixed in the headlights) for close to twenty minutes. The vise, like a steady rest or decent chuck on a lathe, is the gravy that makes it all slide down easy. > Guess you'll soon be asking "When was mine made?", "Where's my serial > number?", "What color paint should I use?", "I need a door. Does > anyone know where I can get one?" (BTW, does yours still have the > door on the left side...or is that one of the "scalps" that I already > have hanging from my trophy wall? :-)) I DO need, however, an "Acorntools" > cast-in logo door which is what the Atlas was badged in England. I have not dared inquire about the door. Getting both belt guards was enough, I do not tempt fate, but instead have faith that the machine has not been ravaged by any of the merciless doornappers of whom I've read such scary cautionary tales, insatiable profiteers in the cruel international traffic in shaper doors. Should I keep the door in a safe, and substitute a papier-mache (or cast resin) replica for normal use? Perhaps a *transparent* plexiglass door, to allow better contemplation of the workings of the bullgear and arm? > You need to now develop a "relationship" with Jolene Olds at Clausing This sounds like another of the sorority that claims the fabled St. Rose of South Bend. It is good to know her address, thanks. Dave ------- Date: Sun, 08 Feb 2004 19:13:27 -0000 From: volzmechatronicx~xxyahoo.com Subject: Re: New ebay item... In Metal_Shapersx~xxyahoogroups.com, Woodchuck wrote: > On 8 Feb 2004 Metal_Shapersx~xxyahoogroups.com wrote: > I stalked a nearby little shaper for about 6 months, and finally > seeing one at about 120 miles, I actually *hestitated* (woodchuck > transfixed in the headlights) for close to twenty minutes. Dave-- "Woodchuck Transfixion" is a common malady shared by many of us predatory dinosaur hunters. Here in Texas, that affliction is usually accompanied with "9-Banded Armadillo Knee-Jerk Reaction": when the auto-MOBILE rolleth over it's jump-time--splat against the crankcase and then the trailing "thump-thump". :-) (BTW, does yours still have the > > door on the left side...or is that one of the "scalps" that I already > > have hanging from my trophy wall? :-)) > I have not dared inquire about the door. I do not tempt fate, but > instead have faith that the > machine has not been ravaged by any of the merciless doornappers > of whom I've read such scary cautionary tales.... Should I keep > the door in a safe, and substitute a papier-mache (or cast resin) > replica for normal use? Perhaps a *transparent* plexiglass door, > to allow better contemplation of the workings of the bullgear and arm? A safe would be fine...I am a seasoned "cracker" and have just received a fresh supply of fine ching-chong crushed jaded ruby sandpaper. However, if you do as most safe owners do--and jot down the combination somewhere "normal"--ruffin' my finger tips won't be necessary. The best solution is to cast--ZA-12 is fine--a counterfeit and keep IT in the safe instead. Door nappers will always hit the safe first. (I have a safe in a hidden but "seeable" location. It is filled with concrete and the door is welded shut. Hours of potential "entertainment" just like the playground at Burglar Queen.) I've seen all different ersatz "doors" used--from the exquisite "Lodge" shaper (ex-skillet) door on Mario's "sunny-side-up special" (at "Photos" here) to smoked lucite. The smoky plexiglass door would be nifty kool if lit internally with cold neon tubes affixed to the crank. I've never seen a paper-mache door but, if painted with flashy leaded paint and beaded with baubles, it would probably look quite gay-ful. An "Alumilite" (Kalamazoo) repro door of 5-min cast, hi-definition, polyurethane (6000psi tensile) would also be super cool especially if it contained embedded multi-colored blinking LEDs. (Why didn't Ja-net think of that, huh...and maybe one that electronically screams bloody murder like a distressed bed-bug when you try to "pluck it"?) Art (Houston) ------- Date: Mon, 09 Feb 2004 00:19:04 -0000 From: "dreilanderecht" Subject: Elliot sighting Hi Guys, I was having a browse around our local transport museum yesterday (MOTAT, Auckland NZ) when the blacksmith told me that the tramways section had just received a new milling machine. I wandered over to take a look, and so they had, a nice big vertical mill. However, of more immediate interest to us, they have also just received a shaper. This is an 18 inch Elliot, and what made it interesting to me is that this model is identical to my 18 inch Alba, apart from the door, which has Elliot cast across it where mine has Alba. The only other difference is that theirs is equipped with the optional tilting table, which I don't have. Looks like it would not be too hard to modify mine to have that feature...The machine has been sanded down ready to put a better coat of paint on, and is in generally good condition, apart from a broken clutch lever and a non standard crank handle. Still, they have the broken piece. (And Art hasn't got the door...) Also one of the guys there has an Adept hand shaper....tried to talk him into giving it to me! One of their tram cars (aka streetcars in the USA) has the old carbon filament bulbs in it still, I saw them going. regards John ------- NOTE TO FILE: There is a thread starting in the Broaching file on 05 May 2004 that came from the Metal_Shapers group, and, naturally, went out in left field. Normally I would have put the conversation here, but figured to leave it in Broaching as bait -- so some innocent lathe or other metal hobbyist would see what they are missing by not hanging around with this colourful, historically-oriented gaggle of shaperholics (including one unrepentent door rustler). ------- Date: Wed, 1 Dec 2004 21:30:08 +1100 From: "John" Subject: Re: douglas shaper From: "bluunt" Subject: [Metal_Shapers] douglas shaper > Just another proud owner of a Douglas shaper, wahoo!! > I am finding it difficult to get any information on this machine,why > is this ?? Is there anyone out there who has literature or anything > relevant to this machine or others by this manufacturer?? > I am looking forward to usingnthe shaper and learning its operation. Ken Hi Ken I have a Lock 10 inch (also Australian made - the Lock Tool Co of Melbourne) and same deal no info. I reckon its because nobody gives a 'Continental' about our manufacturing history or about making things anymore. But perhaps I'm just getting old and grouchy. What I can tell you is that the machine was made by: P K Douglas Pty Ltd, Enfield, NSW, Australia then may have been manufactured by: The Wagga Iron Foundry, 230 .. Road, Wagga Wagga, NSW, Australia It has been suggested to me that the Wagga foundry is still in business. I kind of doubt this because the EPA regulations are so tight here in NSW that it would be almost impossible to meet the emission standards/criteria and make any money. Anyway if I do see something more on the Douglas I'll let you know. Regards John B Sydney Australia ------- Date: Wed, 01 Dec 2004 11:25:26 -0000 From: "rjacksonzener" Subject: Re: douglas shaper Hi Ken, I have one too. I know of one other owner as well. From what I could find out they were used in NSW (Australia) schools for a long time. I had mine at my workplace for a week or two before I brought it home and quite a few "baby boomers" said they had used one at school before metalwork classes became unfashionable. My one had some electrical inspection markings that showed it came from a high school in southern Sydney. I tried to track down the maker - P.K. Douglas Pty Ltd - and found that the company existed once but was de-registered some time prior to company records being computerised (around 1980). I haven't followed this line any further. Mine also had a "McPherson machine tools" dealer plate on it, no luck with this line either. My guess is that, if there ever was any documentation, it is (or once was) sitting on some metalwork teacher's bookshelf. It is also possible that this machine was just created to fill the educational need. Douglas does not appear to be a producer of other machine tools. Anyway, this search was really just for interest, there is more than enough good stuff in this groups messages, files and photos to cover just about anything you could want. Download and read a couple of the small shaper manuals from here and you will get the drift. For the record, mine is 10" (maybe 10.5") stroke and has a mechanical clutch. No lube system. Power cross feed. Great machine / toy, right up there with lathe and computer (previously considered by me to be the best toys around). Where are you located? [later reply: Auckland, N.Z.] I'm in Sydney. Ron ------- Date: Wed, 01 Dec 2004 23:22:44 -0000 From: volzmechatronicx~xxyahoo.com Subject: Re: douglas shaper Ken--See Msg #1902 & MSG #1911, c. September 2002, and PIX of Terry Lane's (Australia) Douglas shaper in "Photos" here at "Douglas". Art (Houston) ------- Date: Sat, 18 Dec 2004 00:40:01 -0000 From: "dshulbert7" Subject: Re: Steptoe-Western Shaper - Others? The Holland Sentinel Newspaper has some interesting stories about the Western Machine Tool Works in their archives. http://www.thehollandsentinel.net/ Doug ------- Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2005 23:16:35 -0000 From: "Irby Jones" Subject: Schneider & Goosmann planer arrived! Well, my nearly 100 year old Schneider & Goosmann planer arrived today and took up residence in my garage. To say I'm thrilled with it is an under- statement. Such a neat piece of "old iron"! I probably should be careful of what I say here about it since at least one member is familiar with it from the past, but it is in as good a shape as I was told, probably even better. I will put some pictures of it on Metal_Shapers_Pix under "S&G Planer" later on tonight. If you have a copy of Kenneth Cope's "American Planer, Shaper and Slotter Builders", it's shown on page 163 (16" x 16" x 36" power planer). The belt changing mechanism is missing, but it seems to have the original pulleys, clapper head, and cross-feed ratchet mechanism. It's been changed over to electric power, but sometime in the far future I will try to restore it as close to original as I can. But for now, it will serve as a planer with whatever I feel like mounting onto the crossbar, from the shaper type of head it has now, to a milling head and even a grinding head. My old Bridgeport M head seems to be drooling to get up there! After I unpacked it and fiddled with it some, I couldn't resist setting up a dial indicator to see just how true the table was. You will see the indicator in a couple of the photos. The first time I moved the table back and forth, the indicator moved 12 thousandths total. Ugh, I thought. Then I remembered being told how these planers are very sensitive to level (actually just way twist), and noticed that it was wobbling on the garage floor. After just the first cut at "leveling" it - putting a couple of washers under one leg so it didn't wobble any more - the indicator moved only 1/2 thousandth end-to-end over the full travel anywhere I placed it on the table. It should just get better when I really use a precision level to set it true. I'll write more about it when I get around to really cutting metal with it. Right now I have to go bond with it some more! Irby ------- Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 15:12:07 -0000 From: "Art Volz" Subject: Re: Frist Cuts Doc wrote: > --my 16 in. smith -mills , one of the former employees told me they > used the shaper for hogging off metal ...before going to the > vert.mill ...said it was much faster than the J heads... > best wishes docn8as MRR, metal removal rate, is all about horsepower applied per minute. A rule of thumb is that it takes 1 horsepower to remove 1 cubic inch of mid-carbon steel per minute, independent of type tool material. (Tool material determines speed of cutting.) 1 HP at the tool in a normal shaper is only a rate of 2/3 HP applied because it is retracting (not cutting and applying that horsepower) for 1/3 or each minute for the common crank type shaper. However, take a 3 HP at the cutting tool vertical mill: it can remove 3 cubic inches of mid-carbon steel per minute. Take a Cinci shaper with 7 horsepower at the cutting tool: it can remove 2/3 x 7 HP or about 4.7 cubic inches per minute. (Both are considered to have sharp tools.) There are a bunch of reasons that the shaper and planer died, one of which was that they were no longer "glamorous" in 1955-1960: CNC and vertical mills developed by Cincinnati Milling Machine & M.I.T. were in vogue--they had arrived. I know that some 400 FPM cutting speed (rate) planers were operating then and that 2 companies brought out prototypes of 400 & 600 FPM cutting speed shapers. The reason for these high speeds were that these machines had been purposely designed to use much higher cutting speed capable CARBIDE tooling--all the other shapers were capable of using only HSS and a very few were capable of using higher speed cast alloy cutters (non-ferrous alloy composed mainly of cobalt with included metal carbides). Industry wasn't interested. Other than the small bench working model open side shaper that I fabbed several years ago, NONE were ever made that would run under direct CNC control: attendant operators were required to run all of the shapers and planers, whether high-speed or low speed. Cincinnati Planer crumbled and sold out early--I have original photos of perhaps their last two company employee/family picnics: a sea of departed faces staring at me from out of the pages of time past. Cincinnati Shaper held out until 1967 and then changed their name, dropped their shapers, and concentrated on building machines that they could sell and make a profit with. They still live. Rockford held out 'til later with their excellent line of hydraulic machines, but NONE of which could use high cutting speed carbide tooling. (They were smart: they got their shaper specs to BE the Military Standard-- see "Files" here.) I am currently designing a high speed carbide capable 7-inch bench top shaper that will be CNC controlled. I know that there is absolutely no market for it, either industrial OR hobbyest--even if it could be made affordable. I'm doing it only because it's my next mountain to climb = FUN. Ta-Ta-- Art (Houston) ------- Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 16:58:58 -0000 From: "Art Volz" Subject: Re: 7" CNC - Carbide Capable Shaper... Rick wrote: > Art, What does it take to make a shaper carbide capable? Thanks Rick-- Essentially 2 (most important) requirements: --Minimum cutting speed of 300 FPM (see Planer section of "Machining Data Handbook"). Note that this also will require a ram and ramway capable of sustaining continuous high reciprocation speeds with minimum wear. --Extreme rigidity. Carbide, even the micro-grain versions, is more brittle than HSS. Art ------- Date: Thu, 09 Jun 2005 14:28:15 -0000 From: "eng4turns" Subject: Re: Porter-Cable Serial # Update --- In Metal_Shapersx~xxyahoogroups.com, "Art Volz" wrote: > Ed-- This is only my "idea", but I would think that it was made somewhere > in the Syracuse, NY, area...probably cast in the same foundry that cast > their lathes. Have you done the "unthinkable" yet...asked Porter- > Cable? http://www.portercable.com Art (Houston) Art, I contacted Porter-Cable and their response was "We made a metal shaper?". But they did put me in contact with a Porter-Cable tool collector and unofficial historian who had the following to say: "You have a very odd machine. In over 40 years of collecting Porter-Cable tools I have only seen the one I have. Word of mouth from one of the old employees in Syracuse is that only a couple hundred were produced. The machine was introduced early in 1941. Strangely the entire design was purchased from Brandt Ford who at the time was a shop superintendent, not part of their engineering department at all. Porter-Cable had been big in the metal grinding and finishing market since the early twenties but had sold their lathe business to W. C. Lipe Company in 1938 so they were no longer in the metal cutting business. The shaper did not fit their market and shortly after the war the business was sold, as you know. It is a neat machine and fun to watch work but mine has been buried in the back of the shop for many years. Good luck with yours!" I've got mine all scraped in now, made a new bronze foot the other night. With a serial number of 218, I'm guessing mine was made in the late '40s. Ed in Florida ------- Date: Mon, 04 Jul 2005 03:10:26 -0000 From: "Art Volz" Subject: Re: operations manuel In Metal_Shapersx~xxyahoogroups.com, "tobetinker" wrote: > I am need of a manuel for The Milwaukee Shaper built by Lutter & Gies. > It has a 16 inch stroke,4-speed gear box,three phase motor. > Not sure of the year made. That sounds like a great Quest. If the motor looks like it was factory installed, it might be easier to guess at the date by determining about when the motor was made. The only thing I have seen in print is a short mention of that shaper manufacturer on page 104 of Cope's book: "Lutter & Gies, Milwaukee, WI. A partnershipo of George M. Lutter (1857-1937) and Ernst A. Gies formed in 1887. The partners incorporated the firm as the Lutter & Gies Co. in 1910. Shaper production began about 1900 and, by 1909, the firm offered the Milwaukee crank shaper, shown right, in 16" and 24" sizes." Good luck! Art (Houston ) ------- Date: Mon, 04 Jul 2005 03:37:29 -0000 From: "Art Volz" Subject: Re: new member, looking for G&E manual In Metal_Shapersx~xxyahoogroups.com, "davidcastile" wrote: > Among those machines is a 16" Gould & Eberhart toolroom shaper.... > And that's what brings me here, a member on P M staedf he found a > file here with G & E manual available. With my poor PC skills I have > been unable to find it. Am I simply not looking a the right place Dave-- We have the manual, it's just a little bit hard to find as we ran out of space and needed to store it elsewhere. It is the US Army TM 9-3418 and is for the Mitts & Merrill shaper which IS the same (they were the last makers) as the Gould and Eberhart. It is a PDF file, so you'll need to have a free copy of Adobe's Acrobat Reader to view it and download it to your printer. To view it go to "Links" at this site (left side column); then click on "Archives of Photos & Files"; then click on "Files"; then click on "Metal Shapers"; and then, finally, click onto "TM 9-3418" and you're there. Art (Houston) ------- Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 20:04:46 -0000 From: "Steven Vine" Subject: Perfecto - first internal keyway Just thought I'd make a post and announce that I've just used my new shaper properly for the first time and that I've machined my first internal keyway, on a 2 inch diameter aluminium pulley blank. Talk about satisfying. I can't stop smiling. I bought a hand powered shaper off Ebay nigh on a month ago back. It was made by the Perfecto Engineering Company of Leicester (UK) and is machine number 1357. It has been converted to run off a single phase 1/4 hp motor. It looks like the conversion was done by an amateur (just like myself) on an extremely tight budget, with just basic tools. First thing I did was strip her down, to see what she looked like in the raw. She was in bad need of some love and attention. As I reasembled it, and repainted it, I had to re-machine a lot of the parts as they were nearly all hand finished. I completely replaced and re-designed some of the crudely made parts, which was most enjoyable. It was not too bad a job and I am grateful that the previous owner had paved the way and gave me a good start. A lot of the original Perfecto castings needed touching up and finishing in the mill due to the poor finish on the non critical areas. A few parts still need replacing and painting, and I'll get around to that in the coming months. I had four attempts cutting the internal keyway. Midway through the third attempt I suddenly realised that this machine was a hand shaper, originally designed to be used by hand, and there was me treating it like you would a 1/4 ton lathe. On the fourth attempt, I nursed her big time. I realised that under motor power everything bent, sagged, knocked, bumped and juddered. I stood there for an hour with a magnifying glass taking the lightest of cuts; my hand on the ram pushing down to control the amount of metal removed on each stroke. It's that flexible! I was even pushing the ram back and forth to help out the drive mechanism and make things smoother. The job turned out ... perfecto. I truely became one with the machine on that fourth attempt. I needed a 6mm wide keyway. I only had a 5mm wide tool bit, so I cut a good 5mm keyway first. While the tool bit was still in the bottom of the new keyway I used the traverse and ever so slightly opened it out on each side until I had the desired 6mm keyway. So I don't need to grind tool- steel to the exact keyway size as I first thought. What a revelation that was! For weeks I have been wondering why the cross/traversing handle was so small and very hard to turn quickly. It's because it was designed to be turned slowly, in the smallest of increments. Once I realised that and a few other things everything became easy and controllable. I think she will be a pleasure to have around, so I've named her Annie, after one of my daughters. Regards Steven Vine ------- Date: Sat, 10 Dec 2005 20:01:38 -0000 From: "bpendle1" Subject: Re: What's with Adepts? (and new boy introduction) > I have read of the Adepts in Model Engineer etc. I understand > that a couple years ago collectors started snatching them up. Ah! The collectors have started on Adepts have they? I thought as much - one went on UK eBay for a huge sum (it seemed to me) quite recently. I'm also a member of the Unimat lathe groups and they sure know about the fancy prices people will pay when things get fashionable. I'd been watching for a small manual shaper but - I'm coming to the point now, bear with me, this is a new boy's introduction - my eye fell on a nice sounding 7" Perfecto with motor (0.75 hp) and original vice. To my surprise I won the auction and got it for 260 UK pounds (is that about 450 US dollars?). I saved a hefty carriage bill by fetching it myself (maybe 120 miles each way but no big deal really). As a newcomer to metal shaping (I come from a shavings and sawdust background, not a swarf and filings one) I guess I'm hoping to learn a lot here but there is one thing I may be able to contribute: I've been researching the index of Model Engineer articles with 'Perfecto', 'shaper' or 'shaping' in the title and come up with a long list. At the moment, it is three lists, not one, but I think it might be better if I rearranged it. Of course, its usefulness will depend on people having lots of old Model Engineer magazines to refer to. Regards to all, Bob Pendleton, UK, Yahoo name bpendle1 ------- Date: Sat, 10 Dec 2005 18:29:55 -0500 From: Andrew Webster Subject: Adepts Re: Adept hand shapers, I have recently been sent one of these from a fellow model engineer in the States (I am in Ottawa). What a splendid tool. It is a non-cash deal so I had to sell my children into slavery. It was worth it. They are quick to set up, easy to use, and quite efficient. They are however definitely small. There is NO Adept group, although I have considered starting one for fanciers of Adept machines in general. The makers produced two sizes of shaper (4" and 6") including a powered variant, two variations on a 1-5/8" centres lathe, and a horizontal mill which I know nothing of. I have four of the lathes and one shaper. lathes.co.uk describes the lathes and the shapers. The lathes description has some inaccuracies. The lathes (cast iron like the rest of this gear) are common as lice in the UK. You can get them for under 25 quid if you are smart. The mandrels have 3/8" BSP threaded and almost no accessories were every produced. They were very cheap ($1.25 US in the 1930s) but they did a good job in competent hands. The shapers were going for 10 pounds used in 1945. The shaper was introduced about 1934, or at least this is my guess. The last one was made about 1956 when the firm went under. This was when shapers had fallen out of grace in the small shop, and and small milling machines were appearing (Unimat appeared several years earlier). The excellent Cowell's hand shaper remained in production however. I do not believe there are any Asian rip-offs, although the Adept shaper (and the Super Adept lathe) were made and flogged in Australia under the TNC label. I am pretty sure that the manufacturer was Fred Hercus, and they were built at the Hercus machine tool works at Anderson Street, Southward in South Australia. My own Adept shaper was used as a pattern by a friend of mine in Oregon. He and his colleagues in the local ME club built some upgraded versions for their own use. Adept shapers do appear on eBay. Within the last year I observed two. One was in bad shape. They are increasingly desirable by the enlightened, and for this reason they sometimes sell for far more than they are worth. They seldom feature the original vice, which I have with mine. As a former watchmaker I figure I can file almost anything to shape by hand. Hand shapers are essentially filing machines, and my Adept will shape up all sorts of things that I would have done the hard way. I also have milling capability. Even so I am finding that I am shaping small jobs up very rapidly, and with minimum setup time, and surprisingly little physical effort. I can easily work the Adept faster than the feed rates recommended for iron and steel. So that's it. Hope this is useful. Andrew Webster ------- Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2005 08:30:53 -0000 From: "Art Volz" Subject: Strachan Aussie Shaper? wuz: Re: What's with Adepts? Hubbard, Roger wrote: > There is still a company in Australia that manufactures casting along the lines of the Adept shaper although is has now been redesigned to be powered. I looked at these seriously for a while, but was still able to locate a second hand Adept & Boxford cheaper on EBay than new castings. < Roger--Are you referring to the Australian Strachan small shaper kit offered by http://www.hobbymechanics.com.au/metalmaker.htm ? It is small but it differs essentially from the Adept in that the Adept is a traversing head shaper, like the Perfecto, while the Strachan is a traversing table type shaper. PIX of the Strachan are at: http://lathe.com/YahooGroupds/Photos/Metal_Shapers/Strachan Aussie Shaper Kit . Art (Houston) -------- Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 07:40:24 +0800 From: "Hubbard, Roger M SARAWAK-EPA-T-WTE" Subject: What's with Adepts? Art, yes, that's the one. I was looking at one seriously for a while & the guy sent me all the details in the mail. He has one sitting in place of the tailstock of an engine lathe, across the bed & he powers it with a shaft from the lathe chuck! Good looking castings, but a lot of work & more expensive than second hand on E bay. (Plus I have enough "Projects" as it is.) The guy I bought the Adept from on E bay had tidied it up to sell but It needs some work, particularly with the clapper box & on the handles, which must have gone missing over the years & he replaced with straight round bar! Both the Adept shaper & lathe are becoming somewhat of collectors items. It's madness really that companies cannot make money out of making shapers like this, because the small Adept will do most things that a home workshop needs. It's far better than filing anyway. Boxford shapers in the UK are going the same way. Prices are starting to shoot up as people start to realise their worth & scarcity. I'm still on the lookout for one more! I'm a British EXPAT living in Brunei Darussalam & working in Miri Malaysia, commuting across the boarder daily. I have a workshop in Brunei but getting supplies & tooling all has to be shipped in. I'm from the "Old School" starting work in a Machine shop with overhead line shafting to power 90% of the machinery. We had a small shaper, a larger double headed shaper & two very large planners all powered from line shafting. Speeds were changed by flipping the flat belting onto larger or smaller pullers using a naffing great spanner. No guarding on the open flat belts, & in five years I never heard of anybody getting caught in the belting systems. We had a couple of big turret lathes, one a Herbert & the other a Ward, two other Herbert capstans. We never used any of them properly as capstans or turrets as all of the turret tooling was missing! Engineering in those days in the UK was seriously underfunded & boy have we paid since! I can remember loosing a 1/8" drill one day & the foreman made me spend the whole day looking for it. Never did find it, but I guess it taught me something about the value of things! The strange thing is that we never saw time passing & very few photographs were taken of the place. I have a single photograph of me working a 50 foot "Gun Barrel" lathe with a ships tail shaft in it & this picture sits on my office desk to remind me were I came from ha ha! In those days we would use a shaper to cut keyways in ships tail shafts. A 30 foot tail shaft hanging off the end of a 12 inch stroke shaper table is a sight to see, but believe me it can be done. Shortly after that, some bright spark came up with the idea of a small milling head mounted to the top slide of the lathe & external keyways were done in the lathe then. Good second hand turret& capstan lathes are also on the increase in the UK, a good Ward is difficult to come by now. I know I have got off the beaten track a bit but machine tools across the board are my passion. If anybody is interested in old Turret & capstan lathes, see attached web site. Another good site which covers machine tools in general, with lots of old manuals for all machine tools is as follows. I have pasted it to the Adept page, but once in, go back to the home page & you will find a mine of information on lathes, shapers & milling machines particularly of US & British manufacture. http://www.lathes.co.uk/adeptshaper/ http://www.oldengine.org/members/diesel/Ward/ward12.htm OK, keep up with the "Click Clak" Regards R ------- Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2005 09:00:47 +0800 From: "Hubbard, Roger M SARAWAK-EPA-T-WTE" Subject: Darussalam [Metal_Shapers] There are actually two Darussalams in the world, one I think is somewhere in Africa, the other is where I live, Its Brunei, Darussalam. (Darussalam actually means "Abode of Peace) Brunei is a very small Sultanate on the Island of Borneo. The Sultan used to be the richest man in the world, until his brothers company went down the gurlar! He's now relegated to third or forth richest so he probably still has lots of old shapers kicking around as he has dozens of everything else from cars, hotels, houses to wifes ha ha! He owns the London Dorcechester, The Singapore Crown Plaza, & a whole floor in the tallest hotel in Dubai, so I guess business is still not too bad! If you need a respite from seaching for old shaper data, log into a Brunei web page, it will give you some light entertainment. So, I'm a British Expay & my wife is Chinese Bruneian, we live in Brunei & I commute to Malaysia daily for work with a round trip of only 140 kilometers. I have a well stocked workshop in Brunei & spend my time mostly preparing for my retirement by making up & repairing old machine tools or making steam engines. This weekend I have made a start with the new tool holder for my ADEPT shaper. The old one was a bit loose in the clapper box & I needed a second holder to cut internal key ways. Also finished up the connecting rod on my current steam engine & started on the internal cylinder head. Regards R ------- Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2005 22:16:23 -0500 (EST) From: x xx Subject: Re: Darussalam "Hubbard, Roger M SARAWAK-EPA-T-WTE" wrote: >There are actually two Darussalams in the world, one I think is >somewhere in Africa, FWIW: On the coast of Tanzania. In English we call it Dar-es-Salam. Major seaport. Was once a major slave trading port, which, I dare say, is the reason for the choice of name :-) Sam ------- Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2005 07:50:26 -0600 From: "Mario L Vitale" Subject: Re: New Shaper manufacturers. Roger, It sounds like you are planning and "active retirement"! We'll be anxiously awaiting your 'report'. Thanks, Mario ------- Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2005 14:43:55 -0000 From: "chasfred2002" Subject: sheldon comes home I finally have a shaper after joining this board many months (years maybe?) ago. A nice gentleman over on the Practical Machinist web board offered to sell his Sheldon in the classified ad section recently. Here's a link: www.practicalmachinist.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=4;t=003417 I happened across the ad very soon after it hit the web and noticed that the location is at least in the same general area of the country as myself. The machine was north of Baltimore whereas I'm in Charlottesville, Virginia. It's about a four hour drive, but what the heck. The purchase price was $500, which seemed extremely reasonable as the machine has the original vice and the table tilting option plus looks to be in good operating condition with much scraping and frosting still visible. I'd fallen in love with a couple shapers at the last Cabin Fever, however both the South Bend and the Atlas seemed a bit too small for some of the projects I've wanted to do that involve rebuilding an antique shutter machine at work. So, yesterday a friend and I headed up to Baltimore with an ATV trailer rated at 3000 pounds, picked up the machine, and brought it back. The machine's previous owner, Jeff Widder, and his family couldn't have been nicer. The Thai lunch was magnificent. Nothing quite like talking shop in the snow while winching a heavy piece of american iron on a trailer for a road trip. About that road trip...If picking up a great machine from a new found friend is heaven, pulling said iron through stop and go traffic on the Washington DC beltway for a number of hours qualifies as something else... I had thought the trailer - rated at 3000 pounds - would be more than heavy duty enough, but in retrospect I'd call it just adequate. I had spent some money for new ratchet hold downs and they worked very well. We screwed 2X4s all around the machine and used the hold-downs to steady the Sheldon at all four corners. Thankfully, the trailer had new rubber, and we inflated the two tires to within five pounds of their max load rating thinking that (correctly) they would come up to max rating as they warmed up a bit. They did warm up a bit... Though I'd known beforehand that the Sheldon weighs about 1600 pounds, I'm still surprised at how much of a machine it is. It's big. We pulled the trailer with a friend's one ton huge Ford pickup, which didn't seem to notice. Next time, I suspect I'll look into hiring a small crane to simply lift the machine into the pick up or onto a larger trailer. When successive idiots slam on their brakes in front of you, you don't want to worry. I should mention I'm after a nice paint job and shined up metal surfaces. I'm pretty sure the Sheldon does not need rebuilding in the machine shop sense. Many thanks for reading this far. ------- Re: Peerless shaper [Metal_Shapers] Posted by: "pwlldavid" edi.powellx~xxsympatico.ca Date: Tue Apr 15, 2008 7:54 am ((PDT)) "davedcknsn" wrote: > Hi everyone. I just got a Peerless 16 or 18 inch shaper (I think it > is the 18 inch) made in Ontario. This is not the same company that > makes the hacksaw. It is supposed to be WW II vintage. Has anybody > heard of this brand of shaper, does anyone own one, have any > literature etc. Thanks for your help. Dave I run an 8" Peerless, believed made here in Ontario, from some very battered papaerwork with it, just post WW2 for a local high school. It is a strong, apparently well designed machine, perhaps built in a smaller works and then assembled and hand fitted. One oddity is that the vice has a right hand screw, so the handle turns opposite to usual. All the parts are stamped (4) so maybe it is actually #4. I know of one other Peerless, currently deep in storage and have asked the owner for details when available. I use mine for roughing out and for making miniature ratchet wheels using a 5c spindex. It seems quite accurate by my standards. I have tried to find the business that made them but so far have had no luck, they moved to Cambridge and disappeared about 2000. Regards David Powell ------- Re: Peerless shaper Posted by: "Dave" thumbsdavx~xxhotmail.com Date: Tue Apr 15, 2008 11:02 am ((PDT)) David, you might try this: Peerless Tool & Machine Co. Inc. 5 Peerless Way, Enfield, Ct. 06082 Phone: 860-763-5557 E-mail: salesx~xxpeerlesstool.com As of 11-'07 ------- Re: Peerless shaper Posted by: "davedcknsn" mcoomeyx~xxtelus.net Date: Tue Apr 15, 2008 11:14 pm ((PDT)) Thanks for the replies. I have yet to have the time to get a really good look at it. It does seem well built. Some smaller pieces like the end of the ram pointer/indicator are broken off but it seems basically complete. It came with what seems to be the original vice, massive and heavy and 1200 rpm 3 phase 3 hp motor. Any details would be appreciated and I'll try to call Peerless in Enfield when I get a chance. Thanks again, Dave ------- Have joined the shaper crowd! Got me a Porter Cable 7" [Metal_Shapers] Posted by: "pacer8020" pace8x~xxbellsouth.net Date: Wed Oct 22, 2008 10:44 pm ((PDT)) Finally decided to actively pursue getting me a shaper and after a surprisingly short time this Porter Cable came up on ebay and I got it for a pretty decent price. (Pictures in the photo album under Bill Pace Porter Cable.) I had to make a pretty good trip for it, but it was on the way to the kids' house, so just went on there after picking up. Had to delay going to get it for a couple weeks, so I scoured this site and picked up some good info on it -- and the Logan which is the same. Also found several other sites and picked them for info. Was described as "refurbished" ---- well... if a crappy black rattle can paint job counts as "refurbished! But, at least he did do a good job of cleaning it up. Little guy had been used pretty heavily at some point, all the bushings and chain/sprockets were worn badly, but the bronze slide block for the crank pin was really beat up. The bushings being plain oilite types made them a simple matter to replace, and a visit to the scrap box for a chunk of cast bronze and half hour on the lathe had a new slide block ready. The ram was in surprisingly good condition .... over all it is a pretty nice little shaper and with the new parts, it runs quietly and smoothly. The lovely? green paint is a close approximation of the original paint! Wanted to add a contrasting color (red) over the raised letters in the castings and convinced my bride to undertake the project ... that is a tough thing to do and she was sorely disappointed in the outcome. Anybody have a secret method of doing this? The belt covers are missing, with the top one being a cast piece, but member Ed Godwin kindly gave info with a sketch and dimensions on it and I am gonna attempt to cast one in aluminum. Does anybody know the approximate dates of manufacture on these PC shapers, reckon some one at Logan would have the info? Am guessing maybe 50's-60's?? ------- Re: Have joined the shaper crowd! Got me a Porter Cable 7" Posted by: "David Hayes" hayesmfgx~xxconsolidated.net Date: Thu Oct 23, 2008 9:37 pm ((PDT)) Bill: What I did on the raised lettering was to paint the raised part first with a contrasting color. Red in my case. I Let it dry a couple of days. I then taped off that section with blue painters tape. Using a sharp razor blade I cut around the raised section. Then I painted the main color. After it was all dry I peeled off the tape revealing the color below. ------- Sale of South Bend [Metal_Shapers] Posted by: "Scott S. Logan" sslx~xxlathe.com loganactuator Date: Tue Mar 24, 2009 10:05 am ((PDT)) Heard on another group of the sale of South Bend (or what remains of it) from LeBlond Ltd to "South Bend, Inc." Supposedly the same owner as Grizzly. Effective yesterday, 3/23/2009. Confirmed on the LeBlond site: http://www.leblondusa.com/html/about.html Scott S. Logan, Vice President Tel +1 (815) 943-9500 Logan Actuator Co. Fax +1 (815) 943-6755 550 Chippewa Rd Email sslx~xxlathe.com Harvard IL 60033-2337 Web http://www.lathe.com USA ------- Logan 7" shaper serial number - revisitn [Metal_Shapers] Posted by: "John DeBrular" debrularx~xxsuddenlink.net Date: Sun Jan 24, 2010 9:11 pm ((PST)) Porter Cable made a 7" shaper and at some point they decided to focus their efforts to woodworking and they sold that portion of their business to Logan. After that Logan produced a 7" shaper and later on they made a 8" model. The 7" Porter Cable & the 7" Logan are identical. John DeBrular ------- New guy just joined the group. [Metal_Shapers] Posted by: "torqueabunch" torqueabunchx~xxyahoo.com Date: Fri Feb 12, 2010 9:04 am ((PST)) I was a automotive tool and die maker for 16 years. Our shop had about 15 shapers of all sizes and descriptions. The shapers were placed all over the shop and our crew had a very cool Brown and sharp (I Think?) that was air over hydraulic. This thing would stop on a dime. It was large and had tremendous power. It was great to take off stock with this thing, leaving it run while looking through a dozen or so die drawings at the table next to it. The rythmic sound of the clapper and hiss of the chips leaving the machine are some of my fondest memories of those days. What a shame it is that the shop has since gone broke. There was a time when we the Diemakers would read the print, would barber off stock and do hand work with a die grinder to ready the die for the press. Later the prints were replaced with a computer. The shapers were tossed to the scrap pile in favor of new pc driven machines. Many of these decisions were made by the third generation family members that then ran the shop into the ground. Now all I have left of those days are old memories and new scars from carpal tunnel surgery in both of my hands. To the good old days! Dan ------- Re: To New guy Posted by: "Jack Adams" machinejackx~xxyahoo.com Date: Fri Feb 12, 2010 1:13 pm ((PST)) Welcome: When in the old days I will say the 60's early 70's tool steel did not come deluxe as Bethlehem steel called theirs. All A2, D2 that we got came hot roll. We used a huge shaper, (don't remember the make) to skim off the slag. But it was nice to watch it send chips starting with a ping smoking across the shop as you planned your tool building sequence. I have a AMMCO 7" and just love it. Takes me back to a better time when there was work for an old tool maker like myself. machinejack ------- Re: File - reminder.txt [subject is now Shaper Build] [Metal_Shapers] Posted by: "barny" mortimerx~xxwn.com.au g1fak Date: Tue Dec 18, 2012 4:34 pm ((PST)) To the group moderator. I am halfway through building 8" metal shaper ... which I have documented with a considerable amount of images; problem, they are in high resolution. The shaper is built from 3/8 plate which has been purloined from different places - like been given and some bought; the bullwheel and pinion gear have been chewed out of the solid . I have noticed in the image section that no one has prefabricated / built a shaper to their own design, I have no drawings to support the build but all images show the build in progress. I was wondering if some of the group-members would be interested in the build, which would include many pictures and text to support the images. Charles western oz ------- Re: shaper build Posted by: "Rex Burkheimer" burkheimerx~xxgmail.com Date: Tue Dec 18, 2012 5:14 pm ((PST)) Well, I for one would be very interested Rex B - DFW ------- Re: shaper build Posted by: "John Kiely" john_kielyx~xxyahoo.com Date: Wed Dec 19, 2012 6:59 am ((PST)) I would love to see that shaper build myself, can't buy a shaper here in Ireland at a reasonable cost (Anything near free ; ) ) so I am toying with the idea of a home build myself. John Kiely (IRL) ------- Re: shaper build Posted by: "Rick Sparber" rgsparberx~xxaol.com Date: Wed Dec 19, 2012 7:18 am ((PST)) I missed the start of this thread so maybe this is old info. Unless you have access to a lot of scrap parts, do not assume that a home built shaper will be zero cost. I built my own shaper and could have bought a used one for less money. Rick ------- Re: shaper build Posted by: "John Kiely" john_kielyx~xxyahoo.com Date: Wed Dec 19, 2012 11:32 am ((PST)) Rick please don't confuse my sarcasm and enthusiasm for naivety. I realise even a motor to drive a shaper is going to cost me money! However what you don't realise is that there is a shortage of affordable machine tools in Ireland! If I were to import a more affordable machine tool from the UK it would cost me a minimum of 200+ Euros in transport costs alone. That is just a minimum! I have seen a shaper go for £80 Stg in the UK but it would cost me over 300Euros here in Ireland and that would be minus a motor! So the question is, if I have enough scrap to build a home built shaper for less than 300 + Euros. Having said all that It would still be a very nice project! Thanks for the heads up anyway, nice to know you are looking out for me : ) . John Kiely (IRL) ------- Re: shaper build Posted by: "Rick Sparber" rgsparberx~xxaol.com Date: Wed Dec 19, 2012 6:10 pm ((PST)) John, Actually I didn't realize there was any sarcasm in your email. I don't know what your goals are, but building a useful machine was certainly worth my time and money. Best of luck, Rick ------- Re: shaper build Posted by: "Grady Ewing" close_ratio1971x~xxyahoo.com Date: Wed Dec 19, 2012 8:48 am ((PST)) I am all for seeing pics of a home built shaper project, but I agree don't kid yourself, you will spend some money. But it may be on tools and in the end result in a well earned learning experience that could make it all worth the effort. Good Day :) ------- Re: shaper build Posted by: "Rick Sparber" rgsparberx~xxaol.com Date: Wed Dec 19, 2012 8:55 am ((PST)) Without a doubt, building your own machines is a fantastic learning experience. I really enjoyed building my shaper and modifying it until I was satisfied with its accuracy. I have to admit that I don’t use it since my RF30 is so much faster and more accurate. No regrets. Now, if you like to see pictures…. http://rick.sparber.org/Articles/CD/CDM/CD.htm Rick ------- Re: shaper build Posted by: "Richard Wilson" richardpwilson61x~xxyahoo.co.uk Date: Wed Dec 19, 2012 9:35 am ((PST)) Here are some photos of an even rarer beast, a home build planer. It's got a table 22"x 6 1/2" and can plane work 20" x 8" wide x9" high, and weighs around 200 lbs. It took me about 6 years, including making the foundry patterns, and cost me around £900 stg, with the castings the most expensive items at about £700. That's quite expensive, but on the other hand these small planers only come on the market very very rarely. OK, it's slower than the mill, but is quite happy on cast iron at 25 strokes/minute with a 0.030" cut and a 0.015" feed, which with a round nose tool gives a pretty good finish. On steel, using a shear bit it will give a polished finish not much worse than a surface grinder. Especially for slides, I prefer the planer or shaper because the tool marks are in line with the slide movement, not running across like a mill gives. Since it's been finished, it has cut a number of flywheel keyways, planed the standards for a marine engine, a couple of angle plates and is currently doing a set of tee nuts for itself. One day I'll get round to putting a power drive on it, but I don't have room for the traditional planer fast/loose pulley system. There's a Baldor 1/4 hp DC motor with an integral reduction gearbox under the bench which is the most likely solution at present. Till then it's hand drive. Goes with my 12" stroke hand operated Omerod (UK) shaper, c 1926. Richard ------- Re: shaper build [4 Attachments] Posted by: "Rick Sparber" rgsparberx~xxaol.com Date: Wed Dec 19, 2012 9:39 am ((PST)) Richard, My hat off to you. You have created a very fine machine! Rick ------- Re: shaper build Posted by: "Jim S." mrjschmidtx~xxhotmail.com Date: Thu Dec 20, 2012 3:41 pm ((PST)) Richard, That is one great looking planer. Is it an original design or was it based on an old Model Engineer article I saw reproduced in one of their Centennial issues? I once corresponded with someone who was building a planer to those old plans--might even have been you! As I remember, the ME planer was slightly smaller than yours. I've always wondered if our Chinese brethren with their low cost (and low regulation) manufacturing could build an affordable planer for the home shop. I know they still make them in India, but the ones I have seen listed there were more of the feet than inch size and started out at several tons apiece. Once again, congratulations on a great build. It is a great inspiration to us all. Jim (Just a guy who likes to build stuff) ------- Re: shaper build Posted by: "Richard Wilson" richardpwilson61x~xxyahoo.co.uk Date: Fri Dec 21, 2012 2:53 am ((PST)) Jim You are right, it is based on the old ME design reprinted in the Centennial issue, thats what set the whole project off. It is a little bigger, somewhere between a Senior No. 2 and a Senior No.3. A lot of the detail such as the self feed mechanism, which isn't in the original design is based on Senior practice, which I got from looking at the website: http://www.lathes/ To be honest, getting the self feed to work reliably was one of the hardest parts! Richard ------- Re: shaper build Posted by: "Tucker Tomlinson" tuckertomlinsonx~xxgmail.com Date: Wed Dec 19, 2012 4:04 pm ((PST)) You may already know all this, and if so I'm sorry to repeat: If you are really interested you might seek out a copy of Dave Gingery's books. It's a series on how to build up a workshop starting from building an aluminum foundry through casting your own machine tools. He has one on how to build a shaper, that I think many have adapted to build using scrap metal and motorcycle gears and whatnot instead of aluminum castings. I also know some members here have built Gingery shapers and could give you better advice than I on how one might be assembled and the actual cost to make. Cheers ------- Re: shaper build Posted by: "Rick Sparber" rgsparberx~xxaol.com Date: Wed Dec 19, 2012 4:14 pm ((PST)) Good advice. I built the Gingery shaper but find it hard to quote you the cost. I spent maybe $200 on my new electric furnace, $75 for fresh Petrobond, maybe $100 on fasteners. But there was also bar stock, flasks, and steel tubing for the table. Additionally, what is the value of my time if I ignore the fun and education. I seem to recall someone selling their Gingery shaper a few years ago. It went for less than the scrap value of the aluminum. If you want a low cost shop, avoid Gingery. If you want to learn about machine design, metal working, casting, and get a usable machine shop when done, then Gingery is a wonderful starting point. If you want to see my shaper in operation, go to YouTube and search on "rgsparber1". Rick ------- Re: shaper build Posted by: "John Kiely" john_kielyx~xxyahoo.com Date: Wed Dec 19, 2012 6:23 pm ((PST)) Mr Dave Gingery is my Hero! It usually takes me three times longer to get stuff done as I am financially challenged, but isn't that all part of the challenge? Who knows maybe I can even bring something new to the challenge of a home build, I doubt it, but you would never know? Thanks for the words of encouragement. John Kiely (IRL) ------- Re: shaper build Posted by: "Nelson Collar" nel2larx~xxyahoo.com Date: Wed Dec 19, 2012 7:08 pm ((PST)) Rick: Good to see you out there. We built our shapers at about the same time. Mine was done as conservative as I could get. I think I have about $50.00 in the whole thing, but had a lot of scraped machines that yielded most of my parts. If you do not get fancy with the better of equipment, you can build one for under $100. It's the labor but it is doing something you will be able to cut a big notch in your belt. One of the things is the experience you gain. The truth about it, it's a journey that will turn your mind loose. The extent of what you can build is how far your mind can plan. Once you know how to make your castings, there are no restrictions. Good Luck. But I must warn you before you get started. Once you start there is no turning back. The cast bug bites for which there is no cure. Good luck and Merry Christmas Nelson Collar ------- Re: shaper build Posted by: "Nelson Collar" nel2larx~xxyahoo.com Date: Wed Dec 19, 2012 7:10 pm ((PST)) It's not just a machine, it's the life changing it will make in your life. ------- Re: shaper build Posted by: "Rick Sparber" rgsparberx~xxaol.com Date: Wed Dec 19, 2012 7:10 pm ((PST)) Nelson: You are certainly right about the mind expanding power of casting. It is similar to welding in that respect. Rick ------- Re: shaper build Posted by: "Nelson Collar" nel2larx~xxyahoo.com Date: Wed Dec 19, 2012 7:29 pm ((PST)) We can learn something every day of our life. But we if we do not try, we will never enjoy life to its fullest. It is a lot easier to follow direction than going our own tangents. It's all about following the rules. Merry CHRISTmas and a Happy New Year to you and yours. Nelson Collar ------- Re: shaper build Posted by: "Charles" xlch58x~xxswbell.net Date: Wed Dec 19, 2012 7:57 pm ((PST)) I often explain to people that the Gingery Books were less about building a machine and more about building a machinist. Charles ------- Re: shaper build Posted by: "Richard Wilson" richardpwilson61x~xxyahoo.co.uk Date: Wed Dec 19, 2012 8:07 pm ((PST)) John Kiely (IRL) wrote: >I am gobsmacked at that flywheel. How the hell did you cast that monster? John: I only make the patterns, a commercial foundry does the casting. That flywheel weighs around 35 pounds, so probably involved over 50lbs of molten iron. No way am I trying that at home. I've not long returned to the UK after 12 years in Ireland, so I know that foundry facilities are more or less none existent especially in the south. richard ------- Re: shaper build Posted by: "Gerard" gemondsx~xxscarlet.be Date: Thu Dec 20, 2012 10:06 am ((PST)) Hello. I also had the intention to build a shaper using the Gingery book. I would not discourage future founders but my casting was a real disaster. So I started my own shaper design. The whole machine is made of waste plate and bars. In place of to use step cone pulleys, I opted for a gearbox with four speeds. I hope to be finish my shaper within a few months. I'll put all drawings and photos on my website. You can already see some photos. The stroke op my shaper is about 9.5" http://home.scarlet.be/mini-draaien-frezen Gerard ------- shaper build Posted by: "barny" mortimerx~xxwn.com.au Date: Thu Dec 20, 2012 10:07 am ((PST)) Barney here. I am new to the site and there's no prizes to guess what my trade is. Pleas let me explain how this shaper build came into being around 1962. I picked up a science and mechanic, home workshop no 584 and I have been carting this silly book around for the best part of my life. In the magazine is an article about, craftsman metal shaper hand operated. I thought to myself I want one of them and always threatening to build one never got around to it. This is where the story really begins. Just recently I bought a seig sx2 mill I wanted it solely for precision drilling, knowing seig equipment for what it really is not the best for tolerances (there's more about that on the x mill group site in 2 parts sx2 rebuild ... Biggest problem was the rack and pinion and this machine brand new, rack and pinion total mismatch, the phrase I use, its lumpy as an old hoars hart. No question about buying a new rack and pinion would have the same problem. Thoughts turned to the shaper again; the machine would handle this quite nicely and the pinion would be made, of silver steel/drillrod, instead of mild steel. So the shaper is born most of the metal for the frame is black steel/ boiler plate; the first piece to be built was the bull wheel. My sieg x3 handled that quite well with a 6" dividing head and a converted broken hss mill a lot of jiggery pokery went on here (to the purist, certainly would have summit to say) I was taught you do anything to get the job done. The column is built from bright mild steel also the box carriage, up to date it has cost around 300 bucks including machine screws, no drawings have been used or any computerised new fangled drawings have been produced. This is straight out of the old greymatter (in my younger days measurements would come on the back of a fag packet and if you could get the job to within the thickness of half a fag paper it would just about pass. Right, enough of this silly story, and bad spelling. What can you expect from a dyslexic old fart. In the next month or so I will start to add images.(Providing people are interested, which some of you are. There are a lot of images ... Take a look at the x mill group and take a look at the sx2 mill rebuild. Part one and part all images are supported with text under the main image line. thanks for reading barney from western australia ------- Smith and Silk shaper (Ohio machine tools) [Metal_Shapers] Posted by: "Tucker Tomlinson" tuckertomlinsonx~xxgmail.com Date: Sat Jan 5, 2013 9:42 am ((PST)) Hi folks, A few weeks ago there was a mail on the list from a guy called Mike who had an old smith and silk shaper that he needed to get rid of and was about to scrap it since he couldn't find any buyers. That seemed like a terrible shame, so I rented a truck and went and purchased it from him. He's a great guy, and was willing to take less than the scrap value just to see the machine survive. Now that my little south bend is working, I'm getting ready to put the Smith & Silk back into running order. I was wondering if anybody had any information about these shapers? The only info I've been able to find is a post on the practicalmachinist forums http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/antique-machinery-history/ohio-mac hine-tool-co-113606/ which gives a little of the company history but not much detail on the tools themselves. From that read I know that the tool is pre-1895, since the company changed names to the Ohio Machine tool company that year. If anybody has any information on Smith and Silk shapers, or early Ohio Machine tool shapers I'd love to hear it (a manual would be especially nice). It's an interesting machine: The main casting is open at the bottom and all the internal gearing seems to be lubricated with heavy machine grease rather than a powered oiling system like you would see on a more modern big shaper. The drive pulleys are actually designed for 4" wide leather belts running from a line shaft. At some point a home machinist modified the machine so that the countershaft pully is mounted on a plate that hangs off the back of the machine. This plate also mounts a 1/4hp motor stolen from a furnace blower which drives the whole thing with a set of Vee belt pulleys. The same machinist also added some steel bracing to the main casting where it holds the eccentric that drives the ratchet for the table. I don't know if this is because there was some problem with the casting there or if he knew that these machines tend to fail there. The machine still has what I presume to be it's original vise which actually shows some air gaps in the casting in a couple of non-critical areas. All the parts seem to move without binding, but are stiff from old dusty oil all over everything. No pictures for now because my storage shed doesn't have enough light for the cheap-o camera in my phone. It seems very similar in design to this 18" model that Ohio machine tools produced: http://www.g2000inc.com/inventory/wood/1090312.htm (which seems to be for sale of you are in the Toledo OH area) Cheers Tucker ------- Re: Smith and Silk shaper (Ohio machine tools) Posted by: "Ingrid and Alan" puddleduckx~xxproaxis.com Date: Sun Jan 6, 2013 10:27 am ((PST)) Hi Tucker,There is some information on the Smith and Silk company in Kenneth Cope's book "American Planer, Shaper and Slotter Builders", as well as pictures of a 20" shaper introduced in 1891 and their 18 and 22" shaper offered in 1897. It is interesting to browse the book and compare shapers of that era made by Gould and Eberhardt, Smith and Mills, John Steptoe and others. They are all very, very similar. It seems there were a few men in the shaper business who worked for one manufacturer and then left and started their own shaper manufacturing business. Also partners in the various companies seemed to come and go fairly regularly. As far as a manual, I have been looking for years for a manual for my 16 inch Steptoe (introduced 1901) but with no success. I am of the opinion that if you purchased a machine tool in that era it was expected that you were already a machinist and knew how to run such a machine so manuals, if one existed, may only be a page or two. The various shaper books and machinist reference books will tell you what you need to run your machine. Keep it well lubricated, I use way oil for the ways and spindle oil for all else on my machine. Have fun with your new machine, Alan Painter, Brownsville, Oregon ------- Re: Smith and Silk shaper (Ohio machine tools) Posted by: "Tucker Tomlinson" tuckertomlinsonx~xxgmail.com Date: Sun Jan 6, 2013 2:03 pm ((PST)) Hi Alan, Thanks for the response. I'll have to track down a copy of that book. You make an interesting point regarding manuals. I was expecting there to be some sort of parts diagrams at least in a sales catalog, but perhaps folks just expected to make their own replacement parts and extra tooling. At the end of the day it's a pretty simple machine, even compared to my little south bend 7, so I don't think I should have too many problems. I'm just curious to know more about the machines of that vintage. Cheers ------- Re: Smith and Silk shaper (Ohio machine tools) Posted by: "whansonx~xxplainstel" whansonx~xxplainstel.com Date: Sun Jan 6, 2013 11:03 am ((PST)) Alan I do happen to have a Operator’s handbook on the installation and operating instructions for Steptoe Shapers including repair parts list. Whitey ------- Re: Smith and Silk shaper (Ohio machine tools) Posted by: "Tucker Tomlinson" tuckertomlinsonx~xxgmail.com Date: Sun Jan 6, 2013 2:04 pm ((PST)) Huh, this list is a pretty amazing bunch of folks! ------- Re: Smith and Silk shaper (Ohio machine tools) Posted by: "Pat Gamache" cpgamachex~xxtelus.net Date: Sun Jan 6, 2013 11:45 am ((PST)) Hello. Perhaps if you search this site: http://www.lathes.co.uk/page21.html You may want to start by looking at all of the shapers made in the US or Canada and perhaps one will come up that matches yours. This has worked for me in the past when a manufactorer has gone through a branding change for one reason or other. Good luck Claude ------- Re: Smith and Silk shaper (Ohio machine tools) Posted by: "Tucker Tomlinson" tuckertomlinsonx~xxgmail.com Date: Sun Jan 6, 2013 2:04 pm ((PST)) Thanks for the tip, that site is pretty impressive. They don't appear to have any info on smith & silk, or ohio machine tools, but it's definitely worth a look. Cheers ------------------------------------------------------------------ This is just one of some 80 files about machining and metalworking and useful workshop subjects that can be read at: http://www.janellestudio.com/metal/index.html ------------------------------------------------------------------