This file contains fragments of the history of some metal shaper manufacturers, as well as some interesting stories by metal shaper owners. (And other good stuff that did not fit in the other metal shaper files.) If you got to this file directly from my HOME PAGE, return there by using your browser's back button. BUT if you came to this file as the result of a web search engine, see more than 70 additional files on my home page Machining and Metalworking at Home http://www.janellestudio.com/metal/ SAFETY WARNING BEWARE: DO NOT ASSUME that any subject matter or procedure or process is safe or correct or appropriate just because it was mentioned in a news/user group or was included in these files or on this site or on any other web site or was published in a magazine or book or video. Working with metals and machinery and chemicals and electrical equipment is inherently dangerous. Wear safety devices and clothing as appropriate. Remove watches, rings, and jewellery -- and secure or remove loose clothing -- before operating any machine. Read, understand and follow the latest operating procedures and safety instructions provided by the manufacturer of your machine or tool or product. If you do not have those most recent official instructions, acquire a copy through the manufacturer before operating or using their product. Where the company no longer exists, use the appropriate news or user group to locate an official copy. Be careful -- original instructions may not meet current safety standards. Updated safety information and operating instructions may also be available through a local club, a local professional in the trade, a local business, or an appropriate government agency. In every case, use your common sense before beginning or taking the next step; and do not proceed if you have any questions or doubts about any procedure, or the safety of any procedure. Follow all laws and codes, and employ certified or licenced professionals as required by those laws or codes. Hazardous tasks beyond your competence or expertise should also be contracted to professionals. Let's be really careful out there. (c) Copyright 2003 - 2008 Machining and Metalworking at Home The form of the collected work in this text file (including editing, additions, and notes) is copyrighted and this file is not to be reproduced by any means, including electronic, without written permission except for strictly personal use. ========================================================================== Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2002 14:00:48 -0800 (PST) From: Art Volz Subject: History of the Ohio Machine Tool Co. Just got a "heads-up" jab-in-the-abs msg from Joe W. on subject subject: History of the Ohio Machine Tool Co., the folks that made the Swift-Ohio shapers. I'm trying to get the author, Owen McGee, who cared enuf to do the research and report on it, to repost his article directly here. (When all of the American manufacturing companies are but legends...will anyone still care? What will the lawyers then feast on...cake?) Thanx Owen...and thanx Joe.... Art (Houston) --- jrw wrote: > I thought you might be interested in this > information for your archives. Joe

I own an "Ohio" shaper, built in Kenton, Ohio. This week I had some extra time and I was near Kenton, so I did some legwork to see what I could find out about the Ohio Machine Tool Company.

The local library had a 1933 book of city history, which gave me some info on the early roots of the company. From there I went to the Historical Museum, which has no curator now and is in complete disarray. They sent me to the local Genealogical Society, where I met a group of local long-timers who had a lot of memories, and who set me up with several old-timers who I interviewed by phone. I also drove by the old plant and talked to one of its occupants.

The company was founded in 1890 by two men: Mr. Silk and Mr. Smith. It was originally known as the Smith and Silk Tool Company. At some point Smith bought out Silk. In 1895 the name was changed to the Ohio Machine Tool Company. A large building was erected, which burned in 1903 and was replaced by a new structure which still stands. Sometime before WWII, the company was purchased by a Mr. Swift, owner of the Swift Welder Company, and became the Swift-Ohio company. Operations were ended in the mid-1960's.

The best info I got was from Paul Sloan, who hired on there in 1928 and retired from Ohio Machine Tool in 1960. Mr. Sloan worked "in the office" in some indeterminate capacity. He will be 92 years old on Jan 17th next year and is more lucid than I am.

Ohio Machine Tool primarily produced shapers and planers, and at one time produced a milling machine. They also manufactured machinery for other machine tool builders. They built the first DeVlieg mills. They built the Ryerson HBM for a company in Chicago. They built woodworking machinery for a company in Holland MI. They built some drilling machinery for the Defiance Machine Company of Defiance Ohio (another long-gone company). They built a batch of lathes for the American Tool Works for export to Europe which, due to the outbreak of WWII, were never shipped, and were returned, converted to English graduated machines, and sold domestically. During WWII shaper production peaked at 10 machines per month, including 16, 20, 24 inch regular shapers and 32 inch "Super Dreadnaught" shapers. After WWII the Ohio Machine Tool attempted to get into the special machine market. One machine was built for DeVilbiss spray equipment in Toledo. It was a disaster and the company lost a "ton" of money. During its final years the company experimented with "electrical controls" on some machines (unable to determine what machines this was done on). The Ohio Machine Tool Company ceased operations in the mid-60's.

Their building is now occupied by a rigger, Lowe Rigging Co. A social service charity occupies part of the offices. I was unable to contact Lowe Rigging, but several people told me that there's nothing of the Ohio Machine Tool Company left in there.

No one knows what happened to all the company's documentation, such as records, blueprints, and sales material. It is probably all lost, except a few brochures tucked away in attics around town. Just recently, Paul Sloan sent the last brochure he had to his son in Texas.

And that is what I found about the Ohio Machine Tool Company. Owen McGee -- Friday, 1 November 2002 ------- Date: Fri, 01 Nov 2002 22:57:52 -0000 From: "hotrod867068" Subject: Re: History of the Ohio Machine Tool Co. Isn't it fun to dig into history?? Let me add to the history lesson. I have just found out that a company in IL is supplying at least some of the replacement parts for the Ohio Shaper!! I would guess they have picked up the records, prints etc. Normally I wouldn't worry with something like this. I'd just find another shaper to use for a few hundred bucks. This SWIFT OHIO is hands down the sweetest operating shaper I have ever used. In a word EXCELLENT!!! Automation International Incorporated 1020 Bahls Street, Danville, Illinois 61832 PH: 217-446-9500 Fax: 217-446-6855 ------- Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 19:36:37 -0500 From: Richard Danzey Subject: Re: Danz's Gray Planer Art Volz wrote: > Danz-- > Thanx for the PICs of the planer and the shop. Gosh, I'd like a shop > like that WITH all that overhead shafting. Do you remember if there > were any "turn the corner" mechanisms overhead? > Contact me by back-channel. I have some Gray PICs and info AND info > on your two flat belt drive system to include the forward/reverse > belt shifting mechanism. Also have some table feed speed info. > T'inking about table feeds...from the other end, the cutting end. I > suspect that the machine's design constraints included thoughts of > minimizing slide wear between the table and its slideways. > Lubrication oils, available at the turn of the century, were nowhere > as good as they are today and neither were the abilities to make > slideways as well as can be done today. The machine was also > desinged to use carbon-steel cutters which cut at much lower speeds, > even when lubricated, than High Speed Steel. The planer, however, > was designed to cut primarily iron and steel workpieces. From a 1937 > text originally copyrighted in 1922: "In many shops the planer is > used altogether on the same class of materials and has but one speed > forward, with a quicker return. However, four-speed countershafts > and variators are not uncommon. They usually give cutting speeds of > around 20, 30, 40, and 50 feet per minute, and 100 feet per minute on > return." If the Gray were mine, I would probably use HSS cutters but > at carbon steel speeds...and at the low end speed of 20FPM--and VERY > well lubricated with a medium/heavy Mobile waylube. If Mario wanted > to come over for an afternoon's inveiglement, his especiale lube > would probably be Vodka reinforced Chianti...and ice cold Lone > Star 'necks for Ray, Lew and I. Then we'd put Mario on the planer > table, pop the caps on a couple two-three more 'necks, and watch > Mario just swish and swoosh...swish and swoosh.... :-) > > Richard Danzey wrote: > > > Hi, Ray. Thanks for your reply. My planer was made in Cincinnati, > > > perhaps in the late 1800s or early 1900s, purchased new and used in a > > > machine shop blacksmith shop in rural Indiana until about 1972 or > > > thereabouts, by descendants of the original owner. When the last > > > descendant decided to sell the property the entire shop was auctioned > > > off piece by piece. No one wanted to haul the planer away. I got it > > > for free, but paid $400 to get it hauled to my shop about 10 miles > > > away. I've yet to set it up, and run it. I only have theoriginal > > > driven pulleys, but not the driving pulley, nor any idea of the speed > > > of the ancient motor that drove it. Which is why I asked. It has a rack > > > and pinion, though, not a screw drive for the table. > > > I took some pics of the shop before the auction. Attached are a couple > > > of the nicer ones I got. Hope that I'm not breaking any rules sending > > > them along... danz Art, thanks for your offer of information. There was one central shaft roughly down the center of the shop on the long dimension. No corner changing mechanisms. Can't say I even know what one would look like. The old motor was mounted just below the ceiling, on one side of the shop and a belt went overhead to the lineshaft near the center. There were instances where there were countershfts that went back overhead to more conveniently drive a machine near a wall. I heard about the planer shortly after moving to the area, in the early '70s, but really didn't even know what they looked like or how they worked. I always wanted to see it but only coincidentally finally snuck a look through the dirty old windows about the time the owners were getting ready for the auction. My real interest, at the time, was in the line shafting. After I got permission to photograph the shop, I saw how massive the line shaft installation was and realized I could not deal with it myself, even if I bought it cheap. I was on hand the day of the auction but left before the festivities began--my bad hip just wouldn't let me stay. I was surprised to find the planer still in place later. It would have been demolished with the old building if I hadn't requested the owner give it to me. I ended up getting the demolition contractor to move it for me--as I mentioned-- early in the day when the shop and a house were obliterated. One reason I intend to run the planer one day by flat belt from above is the direction changing mechanism for the table. It is marverlously elegant in a clunky old cast iron sort of way, and I could determine no way to accomplish the same thing with more modern means. I'll need to buy two belts, and either a jackshaft, or perhaps a great long 'pulley' to hang on the end of the motor shaft to make it 'go'. I believe it is only the one speed machine, and I'll probably set it up for that. I won't mind using more modern lube, but I don't plan to earn a living with it so speed is less important than fun. See another fun-fact in a message soon to follow... danz ------- Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 19:44:50 -0500 From: Richard Danzey Subject: Re: Gray Planer (Was Re: Shaper surface finish) Al, I've never been much interested in steam engines, but listen to this: Before the clunky old 3 phase 220v motor was installed, the lineshaft was run by an internal combustion engine that ran outside. I never heard of this before, but it ran on acetylene made on site in an acetylene generator. There was an old paper drum in the shop with Union Carbide on the side that I suspect might have been for the acetylene generator, though I never asked about it at the time. I've heard of using acetylene for lamps on early automobiles, and, I think, miner's lamps, but I never heard of powering an engine with acetylene--but why not? A wonderful museum it would have/could have been. danz ------- Date: Thu, 05 Dec 2002 20:06:21 +1300 From: Tom Subject: Re: Years of manufacture for Mitts & Merrill Shapers cincinnati16 wrote: > Does any one know the approximate year Gould & Eberhardt G&E) > became Mitts & Merrill? > How long did Mitts & Merrill continue to make shapers? > If I can come up with a S/N can anyone give me the approximate > year of manufacture? Regards Jon Lewis 1960 seems to be about the time. they seem to peter out in 1977. I have the serial numbers of that period. Tom ------- Date: Mon, 09 Dec 2002 08:31:35 -0600 From: "Scott S. Logan" Subject: Re: Re: New file uploaded to Metal_Shapers bclark64 wrote: >It's interesting how much the logan looks like the porter cable I have. There is a very good reason for that. Logan Engineering Co. bought the shaper line from Porter Cable in the early 1950's. Scott S. Logan, Vice President Tel +1 (773) 736-7500 Logan Actuator Co. Fax +1 (773) 736-6854 4956 N Elston Ave Email sslx~xxlathe.com Chicago IL 60630-1782 Web http://www.lathe.com USA ------- Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2002 13:44:14 EST From: anthrhodesx~xxaol.com Subject: Re: An Atlas Timeline: Richard Stines 10 Dec 2002, Art Volz in Metal_Shapersx~xxyahoogroups.com writes: << Click on the URL to see an interesting historical timeline constructed by Richard Stines on Atlas Press and Clausing-International: http://members.aol.com/plalbrecht2/atlashistory.htm >> Also look at this URL for more Atlas & other stuff +++: http://members.aol.com/plalbrecht2/AtlasMillShaper.htm Remember Atlas manuals at: http://www.clausing-international.com and Jolene Olds, Service Center: joldsx~xxclausing-international.com . Very interesting. One *major* omission is no mention of the Atlas 12" lathe. It would be very interesting if dates of production of specific model numbers of Atlas and Craftsman machines (as well as the other brands mentioned) could be inserted into the time line. A list of standard equipment and specs per model could also be added, maybe as clickable links. And dates when certain accessories and attachments were available. My primary interest is in the Atlas and Atlas-built Craftsman equipment but the information would also be good for the other product lines held by the corporation. This could be the start of some serious industrial archaeology. ------- Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 22:43:17 -0000 From: "dshulbert7 " Subject: Smith & Mills Shaper Division Ran across this little tidbit of info when I typed "shapers metal" in a Thomas Register search, just to see what remained. This info may have allready been posted somewhere, but here it is anyways: Smith & Mills Shaper Division 3640-T Llewellyn Cincinnati, OH 45223 Phone (513) 541-4031 FAX (513)541-7120 Product Discription: 16" through 36" Company Discription: Replacement Parts Parent Company: Nebel Machine Tool Co. Thats about all the info there was, hope someone can use it. -------- Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2002 07:37:21 -0000 From: "dshulbert7 " Subject: Steptoe,Hendey,Smith & Mills, G & E, etc. - Models/Weights/HP/Prices HENDEY Wt. W/Motor Drive HP & RPM 16 H.D. 4800 3 to 5 1200/1800 (?) 20 H.D. 5900 5 to 7.5 " 24 H.D. 8400 7.5 to 10 " 20 Stan. 4800 3 to 5 " 24 Stan. 5900 5 to 7.5 " 28 Stan. 8400 7.5 to 10 " STEPTOE Wt. W/O Motor HP & RPM (Setup for motor drive) 14 S.G. 2900 3 to 5 1800 14 B.G. 3000 " " 16 S.G. 3550 5 to 7.5 " 16 B.G. 3650 " " 20 S.G. 4000 " " 20 B.G. 4150 " " 24 B.G. 5700 7.5 to 10 " G & E Wt. W/O Motor HP & RPM Box/Univ. Table 14 Plain Tool Rm. 3025/3300 3 to 5 1800 16 " " " 3075/3300 " " 16 Tool Room 3250/3475 " " 16 Industrial 4250/4575 5 " -$5,310. (1955) 16-20" Industrial 4300/4575 " " -$5,310. " 20 Industrial 4525/4800 " " 20-24" Industrial 4575/4800 " " 24 Industrial 7100/7600 7.5 to 10 " 28 " 7150/7600 " " 32 " 7225/7650 " " 32 Heavy Duty 8150/8650 10 to 15 " 36 Heavy Duty 8375/8850 " " SMITH & MILLS Wt. W/Motor HP & RPM Box/Univ. Table 16 Heavy 4200/4500 3 to 5 1800? 20 STD 4300/4600 " " -$6,100 (1956) 5 HP/1800 $212., Tool Lifter $200, Vert. feed to tool head $325 20 Heavy 5100/5450 5 to 7.5 " 24 STD 5200/5550 " " 25 Heavy 6200/6600 7.5 to 10 " 28 " 6300/6700 " 32 " 8300/8750 10 " 36 " 8400/8850 10 " SHELDON VERNON Wt. W/O Motor HP & RPM 12" 1550 1.5 ? -$2,766 (1955) INVICTA (British) Wt. HP & RPM 18" 2296 3 ? -$2,375 (1955) This info was copied from manf. sales brochures (Except the Hendey info.) I found in a file folder labled "Shapers" in a file cabinet of a bankrupt company being auctioned off. Don't know if they ever bought a shaper, they didn't have one at the time of the auction. The prices where hand written in the brochures by a salesman or maybe a phone quote. The S & M prices where from a detailed price quote letter addressed to the companies owner. ------- Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2002 23:04:43 -0000 From: "Art Volz " Subject: Re: Photos of B6050 Kevin--Just went back thru your posted PICs admiring your B6050. Pete's comments about quality & price are relevant. Your shaper looks like a much higher quality of machine tool and one intended for an industrial market. The majority of mainland Chinese tools that I see...even at the Houstex tool show...are those intended to be cheap and for a low-budget user. Consequently they are not nearly as well made. To be able to make and maintain the equipment required by the Red Army requires machinery, and workers, capable of achieving the level of precision required. And manually operated non-CNC machinery, of high quality, is still used there because of the much lower cost of "doing business" to include lower labor costs, NO trial lawyer induced "liability" and insurance costs, no OSHA or EPA costs, and very little "lunch-box" costs. They don't really have to worry too much about ENRON style management abuse either--when these type of criminals are caught, they rapidly conduct spectacular trials at a sports arena, followed by an immediate ending out back, with a bill for the cost of the expended cartridges sent to the family of the deceased. As their costs rise, and their ability to produce high technology based CNC machine tools (Bridgeport has/had a CNC technology "transfer" facility deep within the Red Dragon), watch out, because then our "ride" quickens as we will have to really struggle to match their new and lessened costs. Then watch the rapidly diminishing manufacturing infrastructure within the US diminish even more rapidly. Over 2,000,000 US manufacturing jobs were lost in the USA last year alone...and the year before...and the year before...as more and more US companies die outright or just quit. Can this possibly be a trend? Is there any writing on the wall? I know what's wrong with the economy...and how to fix it.... Could we possibly interest any of the powers that be in a new national program: "REMANUFACTURING OF AMERICA" ? Bridgeports are now made by Hardinge at Hardinge's factory and not at the former Bridgeport factories. What do you think happened to the workers...and to their pensions? Last spring, if I remember correctly, the last US manufacturer of cold-heading machinery closed in Ohio. What do you think happened to the workers? And now...ever hear of Cincinnati Milling Machine, that became Cincinnati Milacron, that became, just a couple of years ago, Cincinnati Machine? Hear no more as they've been "reorganized" by merging with Lamb Technicon forming a new company called "UNOVA Manufacturing Technologies" and will be headquartered in Detroit along with the "Production of Cincinnati Machine-brand horizontal machining centers...." (Note that in the quote that Cininnati Machine is now only a brand name.) The only "Cincinnati" that will stay in Cincinnati is a "...new aerospace technology center...." Fare well Cincinnati...and farewell...Cincinnati. Does anyone see this same trend that I surely only imagine?. When large manufacturing companies no longer are, who pays all the accumulated pensions? (I know. We do...We The People.) Where do the disposed workers, many highly skilled, now work? (I know: Walmart & Burgler King, right?) And when all of the aging engineers are gone...boy are they aging and going gone...who will design the stuff we need to manufacture anything? I know. About a year ago (it's no longer in their current ads) a Giddings and Lewis ad bragged that their machines were built in the USA...BUT, designed by German engineers. Giddings and Lewis is just a brand name owned by the colossal German conglomerate Thyssen-Krupp. And then there is South Bend Lathe, a little player for years and much littler after the workers'union at this employee-owed company struck against THEMSELVES in the '80's. Unreal...as is the relentless, and ever increasing in volume, massive...and criminal...de-industrialization of America. Yes, criminal! As for the education of the required number of new engineers...forget it! I attended my daughter's graduation 2 years ago from the University of Texas-Austin as an Electrical Engineer. (She also passed, first time, the extremely difficult all-day national Engineer- in-Training examination, the first phase of acquiring a Professional Engineer license.) The graduation ceremonies were held in an internal basketball court, with all of the graduates, of all the engineering specialties, barely filling one-quarter of the court. This was a JUNE graduation for a very large major university. I suspect, but didn't attend so I don't know for sure, that the similar June graduation ceremonies for the law school graduates was much larger. America NEEDS more trial lawyers...desperately! When Japan's Minister of Education rebuilt the university educational system in Japan after the end of WWII, he had extremely limited funds. His mission was to produce those who would rebuild the shattered industrial manufacturing base of Japan's new economy. He did it by offering tuition funding ONLY to those students who intended to study engineering and science. No one else. When Fidel and his flicking-chicken-licked-bones-in-da-corner- amigos "liberated" Cuba, he also "liberated" all the lawyers from their jobs. In his Marxist society lawyers weren't needed. One of these jobless refugees taught me Spanish at the University of Notre Dame in the early '60's. (Gosh he had a bad accent.) This is the only real accomplishment of Castro's totalitarian regime. A couple of years ago I read that there were more lawyers in Orange County, California, than in all of Japan with a population relatively half of ours. Lots of engineers and scientists though. I know how to fix it. I know what's broke and what still needs to be ruthlessly "broken". Do those who have the RESPOSIBILITY to fix it ...do they have the intestinal fortitude--GUTS--to do what is necessary...and in time? Tempus fugit. Rome is no longer...ROMA. Art (Signing off in Houston on a Sunday Afternoon...8 days after Pearl Harbor, and 2 days before my 61st. If only the Texans had been winning...and I had been watching that game on the tube...instead....) ------- Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 02:56:48 -0000 From: "Art Volz " Subject: Re: J-Line AKA Logan-8 "jlwright72601 <"jlwrightx~xxa...>" wrote: > Hello, I am new to your group and have a question. I have a J-Line > shaper with a ram travel of 8 inches. It is in very nice condition > except for the feed arm is missing. The ratchet is there but the arm > and eccentric cam are gone. My terminology is probably wrong but > maybe you can figure out what I'm talking about. Can parts still be > bought and if not does someone have pictures I can look at so I can > make the parts I need. The Southbend shaper shown at the home page is > really nice, by the way. Jim Jim-- Your J-Line was made exactly the same as the late model Logan-8's, which preceeded it, were made except for the ID tags: your J-Line was marketed by Brodhead-Garrett after they acquired the rights from Logan. Brodhead-Garrett, still extant and still in Ohio although no longer in Cleveland, currently has absolutely NO institutional knowledge that they ever sold shapers. They've been through several reorganizations since their J-Line days. A copy of a late model Logan's operators and parts manual can be obtained from Scott Logan at http://www.loganact.com as can a complete set of re-drawn dimensioned "Blue"-prints. The drawings in the parts manual, however, are clear and are in a isometric format: they're scalable (after being blown up to size) along lines parallel to their x, y, and z isometric axis. Fortunately, you have a complete ratchet box assembly. The parts that you're missing should be easy for you to duplicate, depending of course, on the sufficiency of machine tools that you have available for use. After you have acquired the manual from Scott, I'm willing to discuss with you some simplifications that you may wish to do in making the parts that you need. Art (Houston) ------- Date: Sat, 21 Dec 2002 10:49:03 -0000 From: "Art Volz " Subject: Rhodes/Ames Shaper Serial #'s & DOB--ATTN: Mike Hwenry --- In Metal_Shapersx~xxyahoogroups.com, "mikehenryil" wrote: > From some old reference material that I've misplaced I seem to > recall that Rhodes was sold to Ames around the early 1930's and that > the serial numbers went up to around 3500 or so. Mike, near Chicago Mike-- I've just obtained a c. 1988 list of serial numbers for shapers and slotters manufactured by Ames Precision Machine Works, 5270 Geddes Rd., Ann Arbor, MI, 48105. No mention of Rhodes. The list starts in 1929 with serial number 2501 and ends in 1957 with serial number 2962 with the comment: "NOTE: Models discontinued. Replacement parts no longer available." Anyone having a Rhodes shaper with serial numbers within listed range please post your serial number and I'll give you its Date Of Birth. Art (Houston) ------- Date: Sat, 21 Dec 2002 22:01:53 -0000 From: "Art Volz " Subject: Rhodes (Ames) Serial Numbers Mike--My scanner doesn't work and the list isn't too long so I just typed it into this message. To access this message use "search box" here with keyword "Rhodes" or "Serial Numbers": Information c.1988: Ames Precision Machine Works (Rhodes) 5270 Geddes Road Ann Arbor, Michigan 48105 Shapers & Slotters-- 1929--2501 1930--2538 1931--2553 1932--2555 1933--2556 1934--2566 1935--2593 1936--2611 1937--2625 1938--2633 1939--2639 1940--2662 1941--2705 1942--2755 1943--2787 1944--2805 1945--2840 1946--2903 1947--2928 1948--2940 1949--2944 1950--2946 1951--2954 1952--2956 1953--2958 1954--2959 1955--2960 1956--2961 1957--2962 NOTE: Models discontinued. Replacement parts no longer available. (As of 1988.) Those WWII days were really heady times. :-) Must have been a whirlwind of activity...at least to the guys casting iron. And then...just a trickle. Wonder if #2962 was the last of the WWII era green castings that had fully seasoned? I can hear the foreman shout to "Olde Ralph": "Ralph...we've got one. Go out and move one of them Rhodes rusty pigs inside and shave it down until you find some shiney metal...." Except for the little parts which they probably batched and shelved in the '40's, the major castings had to have been tweaked while machined: "made to fit"--interchangeabilty NOT required. Interesting what can be theorized about their production sans a production line. "Yep! 1952 was a big'un...made two this year!" Art (Houston) ------- Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2002 08:49:23 +1300 From: Tom Subject: Re: Rhodes Shaper Serial #2402 Harvey Noel wrote: > Does anyone have or know of an earlier serial number than 2402? > I wonder if I have the second one made. Sorry no cigar, your style of shaper had been in production for about 13 years prior to yours being built. Yours is c1924. Tom -------- Date: Sat, 21 Dec 2002 17:17:33 -0500 (EST) From: volzmechatronicx~xxyahoo.com Subject: Email to Colleague from Thomas Register OrigDate: 12/21/2002 Reply to: Art Volz Email: volzmechatronicx~xxyahoo.com Art Volz sends the following message: Ames Precision (Rhodes) now Electro-Arc Mfg. at same Ann Arbor address. Click to see search results or paste this link [NO BREAKS IN LINK] into your browser: http://www.thomasregister.com/TCdcopro.cgi?script_name=TCdcopro.cgi&search_ type=keyword&search_string=Ames%20precision%20machine%20&seq=2&pn= &az=21148002&st=&pdm=&colleague=Y (www93 email_col.cgi) ------- Date: Sat, 21 Dec 2002 22:42:43 -0000 From: "Art Volz " Subject: Ames (Rhodes) now: Electro-Arc Mfg. Co. Mike--Did a Thomas Register search and found that Ames Precision is now the Ames Division of Electro Arc Mfg. Co., but is STILL at their Geddes Road address in Ann Arbor. The division now only makes their portable Rockwell hardness tester, but since Ames still exists and at the same location I bet they have some institutional memory--plans, blueprints, documents, a tooter from the 1948 New Year's party--maybe even the ol' gal (now in tennis shoes) who tooted her tooter when it needed tooting at that party. She might know where everything still is. Thomas Register stated that Ames Div. started in 1947, has 10-19 employees, and assets of $1-5 million. Their URL is: http://www.electroarc.com . Ann Arbor is accross Indiana for you, a million miles for me, but only a hop, skip, and a jump from Southgate, the April home of NAMES. Art (Houston) ------- Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2002 04:32:48 -0000 From: "metalchipster " Subject: Re: Shapers in Central Georgia Bibb Machinery will deal. Robert Truett is the man to see. The shapers you mentioned below have been in storage (non-heated) for many years. So, you can expect much rust. The 25" Smith & Mills shaper mentioned is no longer for sale by Bibb Machinery. I bought it in 2001. It has the "This machine conforms to the War Department's..." label on it so I know it is a 1940's model. It still works great and is VERY heavy duty. Weighs about 9,000 lbs. It's tool holder (multi-position type) is 17 inches long and holds 5/8" bits. It's shank is 1-1/2" x 2" and won't fit my Rockfords. Their tool holders look very small next to the Smith & Mill's. I bought a 24" Rockford hydraulic shaper from Bibb Machinery earlier this year (1973 model). It was never put on the sales floor. I bought it as soon as it arrived. It is mint. It was in a nuclear power facility and was never used except for the engineers playing around with it. The ways still have all of the original flaking on them. It has automatic hydraulic toolslide and automatic hydraulic tool lifter. The only thing it doesn't have is a universal table. But, I solved that problem. Two months ago I found a 20" Rockford hydraulic with automatic hydraulic toolslide, automatic hydraulic tool lifter and universal table. It cost me $76 on ebay. It cost me another $150 to go pick it up in Tennessee (I live in Georgia). Even though it is a 1947 (or 1948) model it works perfectly. The 24" and the 20" Rockfords are identical in size except that the ram on the 20" is shorter. The 24" weighs 6,000 lbs. (manual says 5,500 but rigger said 6,000 according to DOT scales) and the 20" weighs 5,500 lbs. (again, according to DOT scales going and coming from pickup destination). All three shapers have 7.5 horsepower motors. The Rockfords are by far the noisiest. The whine of those big hydraulic pumps and the clanking of the forward and reverse valves really make some racket. However, with the Smith & Mills, it is as quiet as a mouse until it hits the steel then all you hear are sizzling sounds as the steel is peeled away in huge strips. I enjoy my shapers more than the other pieces of equipment in my little shop. I guess I'm kinda like some of you guys on this group: Hooked on shapers. They're simple to set up, easy to use and just plain fun. Terry ------- Date: Wed, 08 Jan 2003 16:55:53 -0000 From: "Art Volz " Subject: RE: Western-Steptoe Shaper Serial Numbers In Metal_Shapersx~xxyahoogroups.com, "matt_isserstedt wrote: > OK, Art, my serial number is SW12X350. Matt-- Don't have Steptoe-Western "SW" info--see 2nd note below on possible still living source. Without me having to go back in the messages, is yours a 12-inch? A possible "decoding" of your serial number is: "S"-teptoe "W"-estern 12-inch Number 350, but I don't have a date of manufacture matching list for these type of sedrial numbers. My info on the Steptoe is most likely incomplete and is circa CY1988. Here's an extract in re Western as it pertains to Steptoe shapers: Western Machine Tool Works 255 West Ninth St. Holland, Michigan 49423 Machine Type: Shapers Trade Name: Steptoe 1935...........A-40284-TR 1941..........AB-40701-TB 1942..........EB-40833-TB 1943..........EB-41170-TB 1944..........BB-41506-TD 1947..........EB-41914-TBS NOTE 1: AB = 14 inch size; BB = 16 inch size; EB = 24 inch size. NOTE 2: Serial Numbers unavailable at press time (c. 1988) for...Steptoe Shapers,...Steptoe-Western 12 inch and 15 inch Shapers. Contact Mr. R. C. Bosch for info. Phone (616) 392-2382. Who knows...you just might be able to find Mr. Bosch by doing a Michigan area search...you might be even able to "dig up" some information...about him...if he ain't already departed. :-) Art (Houston) ------- Date: Wed, 08 Jan 2003 17:43:19 -0000 From: "Art Volz " Subject: Re: Western-Steptoe Shaper Serial Numbers Matt--Just did a preliminary "Yahoo! People Search" for "Bosch" in the Holland, MI, area and located a minimum of 56 individuals so named. One of them probably has his/hers father's memorabilia stashed away somewhere...and maybe with Steptoe shaper data. (I have, in a upstairs back bedroom closet, 8 large boxes crammed full of my dad's stuff from over 45 years as a Chief Design Engineer for Bendix Aviation in South Bend. One of these days...after I acquire a good hi-rez scanner and haven't yet croaked myself...I'll start scanning onto CD-ROMs stuff that hasn't seen the light of day in twenty years, and most of which exists nowhere else. When he was still alive, people used to call him from all over wanting to know this or that as he was the only one who still knew: there are parts and drawing data on fuel control systems for WWII B17 engines; there are B&W glossies of "meat ball" aircraft carbuertors taken from "Zeroes" and with notes from Dad to upper management saying that "It's a copy of one of our 193X Stromberg model...." A veritable treasure trove. I wonder how many of these "Bogue's Rogues"-ers are still about?) As they say...here and about: "Good Fishing!" :-) Art (Houston) ------- Date: Wed, 08 Jan 2003 20:35:21 -0000 From: "Art Volz " Subject: Re: Western-Steptoe Shaper Serial Numbers > By your interpretation above, I'm inclined to think that its a 12" > also, and I'll start calling that. The one confounding bit of > evidence is the "stroke plate" on the ram which has graduations up > to 14". This is definitely a factory piece and not somebody's > careful addition. However, maybe this is where the conundrum > between actual stroke and the "machineable cube size" gets sorted > out. Maybe it can machine a 12" cube with a 14" ram stroke. Matt--It may also be that they just happened to have some 14-inch "stroke length plates" on hand and, since they'd work on a smaller shaper too, they just used them to save money. Lawrd knows that a dime saved then was a dollar earned. The Studebaker Lark pickup truck was made-up of parts designed for other previously designed & manufactured vehicles. Saved bundles in design costs and in tooling costs, and also got the truck to market one heck of a lot faster. Wasn't a bad truck either & the Lark grill was purdy. Maybe some of the former Stude employees migrated North to "help out" at Western? Wonder if Western had big windows looking out over a New York Central train station: at Stude's in SB they were always massed at the windows taking both scheduled and un-scheduled "union" breaks. > Ohh. How confusing. I tried contacting a guy I met once while > living in Michigan, John Bowditch, who is an industrial historian > and works at Henry Ford Museum/Greenfield Village. See article > below, he attended the cleanout of the plant in 1999, but no luck yet. > http://www.hollandsentinel.com/stories/061899/new_toolworksplant.html Very interesting article. Appears they "shuttered the shop" in 1980. And the wood floors...did they keep pigs and chickens underneath? You might wish to contact the Holland, MI, museum (if there is one), the "morgue" at the Holland newspaper, and also see if there is any kind of historical society in Holland. What you're really looking for are people who might still be in the know...or can point their finger at someone who does. I found out info (posted in messages) on an obscure South Bend, IN, shaper thru their local historical society last year. Art (Houston) ------- Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2003 20:00:29 -0000 From: "Art Volz " Subject: Re: Good Shape-Rite...Bad Trip Merril--Sounds as if you had a harrowing trip...the sand in the back of your rig and your reasonable speed demonstrates that you've had much experience with deplorable driving conditions. Here in Houston, every day is one of "deplorable driving conditions" caused not by the weather, but by stupidity, rage, impatience, and "It's MY turn!". I saw a young punk yesterday afternoon...right next to my driver's door...get impatient with oncoming traffic "becuz he wanna'to turn & now"...he turned and was T-boned immediately. The driving conditions were perfect. I have visually seen so many accidents happen right before my eyes here in Houston. Totally unbelievable. --- In Metal_Shapersx~xxyahoogroups.com, "Merril Mabon" wrote: > Dick Scheff, you had the same observations I did from the photos. Photo imaging improvements, as you suggested Merril, provided much clearer photos. (Both eyes open, simultaneously, did the trick.) In the side view photo, I can now discern that the 3 wrenches immediately behind the table are c.mid-1937 Sears & Roebucks "Craftsman" brand, and that the much darker front-on photo has 2 Ninjas hiding in the shadows immediately below the 8-inch Lodge fabbed door--similar to the "skillet" door on Joe W.'s refurbished Logan. (Joe's didn't come with Ninja guardians, though...you just gotta guard those doors...as you'll never know where I will be. :-)) > This is basically a bench model on a factory stand. Outside of a hole > in the top of the stand to allow the acme screw that raises and > lowers the table to enter, a work bench with a 3/4" drilled hole > would serve the same purpose. It appears that all models of the Shape-Rite 8 had, as an option, separate bases allowing the user to use it either on a bench of his own choosing or with the factory base. I do not know if Shape-Rite cast part numbers onto the various pieces but if they did, the door on the base should be Part No. 206. What is the Part No. of your base: 205, 205-1, or 205A? The door was round and not as pretty a > casting as the model "B" pictures. What are the letters/numbers cast on the outside face of your round door? Is there a Part No. 19, 19-1, or 19A...perhaps cast on the inside? I did not see a model number on > this shaper besides the 8" designation on the round door. Maybe this > is an older version- the missing Model A?? Might be the original model, the slightly modified "-1" or an "A". It is not a "B" but may have had, depending on when it was finished, some "B" parts. Many of the "Model B" shapers had Part No. 2C "Bearing Cap for Intermediate Shaft" installed. Also check the Part No. for the "Universal Table Saddle"--is it 171, 171-1, or 171A-- and the "Bevel Gear for the Vertical Table Screw"--is it 49, 49-1, or 49A? Apparently a major product modification took place at either the introduction of the Model A and/or at the introduction of the Model B. I suspect that these changes were mainly in the transmission gears in order to make a major product quality differentiation between the Shape-Rite 8-inch size shapers and the similarily sized shapers of other manufacturers. The Model B shaper was designed as a shaper capable of producing an exceptionally high degree of accuracy and surface finish. Besides its extra vibration-dampening mass, for this size of shaper, it had all of the gears, except for the bull gear, running in oil. Additionally, the bull gear and its pinion were right hand helical gears, while the other two helical drive gears were left-hand. This feature gave a silent herringbone gear effect that added to the shaper's extra smoothness. Most shapers' gears can be "seen" in the surface finish achieved--a sort of stop and go as the gear teeth stop and then try to catch up--the Shape-Rite was capable of producing an extremely fine finish. The use of anti-friction bearings, throughout the shaper, for all gears and drive shaft, added additional smoothness. The ram slideways were extra large and extra long to keep the delections minimized. This is one of the true "Queens" of the 8-inch shaper class. All things considered, it > appears to be in excellent shape. What paint is left on appears > original and shows no sloppy set-ups like vise cuts etc. Can you color-match the original paint to anything commonly available today? (Questions like this seem to be eternally asked on this board, and will be for the Shape-Rite too. Answered now it will allow for a simpler answer later on of "Go search: Shape-Rite.") Extra tool > holder was inside and all the wrenches. It operated with hardly a > whisper and I'm anxious to make chips with it, What kind of tool holders did you get...any of the "turret head" adjustable Armstrong type? Any marked "Shape-Rite"? The one depicted in the lantern tool post appeared to be a lathe type and one for HSS, not carbide, tool bits. but I might refinish > it while it is separated from the base. I'll come up with something > between Basic Black and a Beatnick's VW Bus. I've done enuff Ferguson > Grey to last me awhile. A Beatnick's Rainbow "We are the world" VW Bus paint scheme would be truely both "exquisite" and a-door-able! :-) I'll get some pictures while the shaper is > off its stand. I separated them because I have a cap on the truck and > it is half full of frozen sand for winter traction. > Art, I decided to keep the door, but if you want a duplicate, take > the handle off an 8" Wagner fry pan and you'll be pretty close. Merril--my heart will throb forever if only a fleeting glance of your door is provided--and my love and longing for it will be forever eternally sustained. Woe is I! Apparently only 8-inch size "Shape-Rite" branded shapers were ever made. The Model B was manufactured by Sales Service Machine Tool Co., 2426 University Avenue, St. Paul 4, Minnesota. They were "made" for Havir Manufacturing Co., at "Factory No. 1 of Sales Service Machine Tool Co." Apparently Havir also "made" straight sided presses. Their last known address was Havir Manufacturing Co., 1728 Terrace Dr., St. Paul, Minnesota, 55113. As of 1988 they were no longer in business. A cursory search of the web brings up "pointers" of "torts- negligence" lawsuits--I do not know whether their demise was hastened by gluttonous trial lawyers or not. I also do not know whether they used the same, or a similar, serial numbering system as they used on their presses. Supposedly the press numbering system was: Example: 47C76 = Built in 1947, where the first two digits of the Serial Number indicated the year of manufacture. Art (Woeful in Houston & Eternally Spurned: "A door...a door...my kingdom for a door!") ------- Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2003 21:59:31 -0000 From: "Merril Mabon " Subject: RE: Good Shape-Rite I just copied your Reply Art cause I wanted a soft bound edition of that book you just wrote! I really enjoyed it. But Damn- I can't figure how I missed the Ninjas! That Craftsman wrench had a crack in it so I took it back to Sears and they gave me a new one. I love their lifetime warrantee. Today its been up to 15 on the thermometer. Thats hotter than ussual but still a little chilly to be handling cold cast iron, so the new toy is still in the truck. I've got to pick it up with my three point boom and thats on the back of a diesel that decided long ago it liked starting when its a little warmer. I'm saving all these numbers so you can give me an answer as to whether this shaper was an AM or PM product. I hope it wasn't built on Monday. The paint I see on this is the same color Delta Rockwell and many other machine makers have used. I have always used Ferguson Tractor paint. Often if you want to brush touch up a scratch or nick and use this paint the touch up will not show, it is that alike. Its available at TSC and other farm stores. Make sure you get the Ferguson Grey and not Massey Ferguson grey because the latter is much lighter. For anyone spraying these machinery enamels which is what I do, the reducing agent[thinner]is common paint thinner. Do not use a lacquer or auto enamel thinner. I also typed in "Havir" and got the same results, Legal lingo. Excuse me if any of the group Shaperholics are also members of the bar, but I long to return to the day's when the only lawyer on TV was Perry Mason.....EH? Merril ------- Date: Sun, 16 Feb 2003 19:27:15 +1300 From: giolw9r4vh001x~xxsneakemail.com Subject: Re: New Acquisition It is a while since I have been in here. Life caught up with me for a bit...I got a great new job, moved 400 miles, found a house and then moved my family here to Auckland. This has also involved moving my workshop, some of which is still in the hands of movers who managed to misplace about half a truck load. Including my steam engine project. No brownie points for them. So you will appreciate why I haven't been around much since October. Anyway yesterday I went for a drive around the machinery suppliers looking for a trolley to hang the hoist from the RSJ that runs across my new workshop...around 1500 square feet by the way. Got that OK at the first place, then looked at a couple of others. The last one visited deals in both new and second hand stuff, and out in the yard my wife spotted a shaper, saying" you don't want that one" in view of its shall we say slightly rusty appearance. She hadn't even really recognised what it was at that stage...and rapidly found out how wrong she could be. It was admittedly very dirty, with surface rust on all the bits that should be shiny, but it did not look to have gone deep and appeared pretty sound. It is an Alba 4S, which I think they would call a 16 inch shaper. Still has the original nameplates in good condition, although it will want a coat of paint. Plus a lovely big vice. A quick bargaining session with the guy soon secured it for me. He was mostly interested in the vice, which he thought he could get $300 for...I gave him $400 for the lot, plus $50 sales tax. These are NZ dollers, so Americans divide by two and you will be about right. Not too bad for a big machine like that. Just had time to go home and get the trailer and come back for it before he closed at lunchtime, so we got that organised, and he loaded it with the forklift. The trailer axles were hard down on the stops so we put the tyre pressure up a bit and took it very quietly on the way home. It was not over the braking and towing limits for the vehicle, just a bit heavy for the rather soft trailer suspension. I put the afternoon in oiling, cleaning, and freeing things up. The big vice has come off Ok, the slideways all look good now that the surface rust has been removed, and I am very pleased with it. I hadn't been able to see inside before, but the crank, slotted arm, bullgear, and gearbox are all sound. The only sign of damage is a bit broken off the downslide dovetail on the gibstrip side at the bottom corner, and some broken off gib screws on that slide. In the evening I made a goof myself, the knob that holds the stroke adjustment for the autofeed has a left hand thread. No way of seeing the threads, so of course muggins tried to undo it the wrong way. Broke the squared head off. But I will be able to makea new one easy enough, I'll probably turn the end down a little and braze on a new head. Today I moved it to the area that will be its home, moving a lathe to make room for it. It makes the other Alba look just a little toy like, let alone the Ammco. Still, each will have its place. There is still a lot of cleaning, painting, and reassembly to do. Of course there is the minor detail of either changing the three phase motor, or building a phase convertor, which is more likely. A reduction on power is not going to matter much to me, I'm in no hurry. A machine this size will shift metal faster than I can afford to buy the stuff. If the movers haven't lost it, I have a suitable transformer to up the voltage from 230 to 440, so would only need to find the necessary capacitors etc to make a good convertor. Anyway, I will look into that. I'll also be off to the files area to see if we have the manual on line here yet. So now the collection is up to three&the Ammco, the Alba 1A, and now the Alba 4S. Some people dont know when to stop. regards John Olsen Auckland, New Zealand ------- Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2003 21:41:26 +1300 From: giolw9r4vh001x~xxsneakemail.com Subject: Re: Re: New Acquisition--Alba-18: Slotted Base Well I seem to have started a learned argument :) To clarify a bit, the T slots I refer to are on the base, eg just above the floor, making a big horizontal table out of the surface that the support slides on. The support bar slides across the area just in front of where the T slots are. The T slots go to nearly half way across, and there are three each side. I have concluded that the actual table support I have is not the original, it is only a piece of tube and I think there should be a flanged boss on the bottom of the table with a locking screw. (like the 1A has) I will make a pattern and get something cast to make things more original, and use a solid bar instead of the tube. It would I guess be possible to take the table off, (it is held on by four bolts) and use the holes, which actually might even be T slots by the look of things, to bolt a large job onto the face where the table used to go. This would be easier than providing a special traversing head, and would allow quite a large job. I am not sure yet if the table can tilt the way the Alba 1A can. That would need the bolts to go into a circular slot, it looks more like they are in straight T slots. I am not anxious to take the table off since I doubt if I could lift it unaided! It turns out that the autotransformer I used to have is one of the things that went to the scrappy before we moved. It is seriously likely that it will cost me more to set up the electrics to run it than it did to buy the machine. I may use the moral advantage that I currently have (my wife sent some things to the scrappy without asking first, including a piece of bronze bar that I really wanted:) to buy a suitable speed controller, so that I can run this and any future acquistions from three phase with only single phase input. Incidently this has a three HP motor on it. The ram has three unmachined bosses, top and both sides, near the front, evidently to mount some optional feature, maybe for a auto downfeed, which it does not have. There are some good features, for instance the slotted arm has two braces across it which will make it stronger. This is possible because it has the feature where you adjust the stroke by a geared arrangement from the other side of the machine. That is made possible by a gear box that drives the adjustable stroke crank for the auto feed. That also is cunning because there is a link which holds the centre line of the driven gear a constant distance from the horizontal feedscrew. So you don't have to adjust the length of the autofeed connecting rod when you change the height of the table. regards John ------- Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2003 23:12:44 +1300 From: Tom Subject: Re: Re: New Acquisition--Alba-18: Slotted Base Sounds similar to something in my shed, except mine has the automatic downfeed. The two horizontal bosses carry the shaft with the trip mechanism and the inner bevel gear which drives the shaft forward to the bevel gear on the downfeed screw. The top boss carries the feed control. The table is mounted off the horizontal tee slots on the saddle so it doesn't revolve. I'm set to change this on mine, when I adapt a full universal table setup off a Butler. Tom ------- Date: Sun, 23 Feb 2003 07:05:29 -0000 From: "dreilanderecht " Subject: I feel the earth move under my feet Well, it's really a bit premature to do this, because the machine is really not properly clean yet, but I got to the stage this afternoon where I put the vice back on and stuck a tool in the post, and tried out the "new" Alba 4S. Very successful! It runs quite quietly, with no embarrassing knocks, and peels off lovely big cuts. It is only running off single phase, but I'm using a jackup with an isolating transformer to give it the voltage it needs. The motor doesn't self start so you turn it on and then put a foot against the large pulley and give it a quick push in the right direction. It runs up to speed, and of course the machine has a clutch so you don't have to start it under load. I'm monitoring the current with a clip-on ammeter and it takes 4 Amps, only taking the odd flicker up to 5 or so. Since the motor is rated for 6.9 that seems fine. After running for half an hour or so, it was getting to the the just too warm to leave your hand on stage. This is good, because the 460 I get with the transformer is slightly more than the 415-440 specified. Longer term I would like to drop it down a little. Had the ideal transformer before I moved but sadly it went for scrap. And as my choice of title implies, you can feel the concrete floor moving slightly as it runs....I wonder how thick the concrete is? Curiously the big Jones and Shipman tool holders I use with the Alba 1A are too wide to fit into this toolpost, so at the moment I only have a couple of strange tools that I can use, made from rather big chunks of toolsteel. It did come with a holder that will take a 5/16 square bit, and can set it at 0, 45, 90 etc degrees around the circle. Looks potentialy useful but is still a bit too rusty to try. Probably only really useful for lighter work. regards John ------- Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2003 05:36:30 -0000 From: "Art Volz " Subject: Re: Springfield Shaper "jwelsh1054 " wrote: > This is my first post to this board as I am currently shape-less! > I have absolutely no need for this machine; however, I have the > opportunity to buy an OLD shaper manufactured by the Springfield > Machine Tool Co. of Springfield, Ohio. It appears to be about a 12" > machine, not extremely worn, but has no vise or toolpost. Don't know > if the motor runs or not or if there are any MAJOR problems - if there > are problems, they aren't obvious to a novice such as me. Probably > weighs about 1,200 lb. Asking price is $75. > Can anyone give me any info on Springfield shapers such as history, a > source for information regarding Springfield Machine or source for a > parts or instruction manual? Also, I'm be interested in this group's > opinion on this machine or if anyone out there has a similar shaper > that can answer occasional questions. Thanks. J--If you can move it, stable it, and afford it...you might be able to get it for half the asking price...buy it. They were pretty rugged industrial machines...back at the turn of the century...but don't expect to find any cache of parts anywhere...except by cannibalization...or even a manual. Back in olde tymes manuals weren't in style. You should be able to fabricate a new toolpost without difficulty or adapt one from a lathe's lantern tool post; lathe toolposts are also available new from a number of machine tool retailers. The larger size vises for shapers are easier to find and cheaper than those for the 7-inch benchtop shapers--pay attention on eBay and you should be able to locate a reasonably priced one readily. Kenneth Cope, in his 2002 book "American Planer, Shaper, and Slotter Builders, 1830-1910" ( http:// www.astragalpress.com ) wrote: "Springfield Machine Tool Co., Springfield, Ohio" "Founded in 1887 by Phillip E. Montanus (1854-1932), William H. Owen (?-1906) and Frank Kempsmith (1848-1904) to build lathes under contract for Lodge, Davis & Co. Montanus served as president until his death in 1932. Owen left in 1893 to found the Owen Machine Tool Co. Kempsmith left in 1888 to found the Kempsmith Machine Tool Co." "In 1891, the firm incorporated with a capital of $50,000 and began offering hand and power presses under its own name. Edward A. Muller, who had been superintendent of Lodge & Davis Machine Tool Co., joined the firm as superintendent in 1894." "In 1894, a line of crank shapers in 12", 15" and 20" stroke was introduced and, by 1895, the firm claimed to have shipped 600 shapers and to be the second largest builder of 15" and 20" crank shapers in the U.S. By 1903, the line had expanded to include 18" and 24" triple geared crank shapers weighing 1800 pounds and 2400 pounds respectively. A 16" crank shaper with a newly designed drive was introduced in 1904." It must be the beginning of Spring...in Ohio...as this is the second query, in two days, that I've answered concering "Spring"-field shapers. Where in Ohio is your 75 buck one located: north, central, or south? Art (Houston) ------- Date: Tue, 04 Mar 2003 22:05:42 -0000 From: "metalchipster " Subject: Re: cylinder heads About 11 years ago I was rebuilding one of my John Deere garden tractors and needed to have the head shaved. Because I was in a hurry, the local NAPA store sent me to a large automotive machine shop in another town. This machine shop served the southern part of Atlanta. This place was fairly large and had one large room dedicated to surfacing engine blocks and heads. They were using metal shapers to do it all. For their "V" style engine blocks they had special jigs attached to the universal tables of very large shapers. The tables were easily re-set from one row of cylinder banks to the other. On the square (standard) shaper tables they had special jigs mounted for the straight-line engine blocks and cylinder heads. The guy I was dealing with told me that they ran the shapers non-stop for two shifts. I was not a shaper fan at that time but I stood around and watched for quite a while because the action of those shapers shaving those blocks and heads was fascinating. I didn't pay much attention at the time to the jigs they had on the shaper tables. So, with my interest in shapers increasing over the years I returned to the machine shop last summer to see if they were still in use and to get a detailed look at their jigs. Unfortunately, there was not a shaper to be found on the premises. They had all been replaced around the year 2000 with something they called a "dry shaver". This machine had a long bed with ways and the cutting head moved along the ways and acted as a milling head. The engine blocks or heads were mounted between the ways just above a chip conveyor belt. This machine could surface several engine blocks or heads at the same time (in one pass). The milling head was loaded with carbide inserts and flung the small chips onto the sheetmetal side pan where it was funneled onto the conveyor belt. I asked the foreman why they replaced the shapers and he said with a chuckle, "They weren't Y2K ready!". Several other guys standing around started laughing. The foreman then said that the real reason was that the one "dry shaver" working one shift could do more work than all of the shapers could in two shifts. I asked the foreman what they did with the shapers and he said that they were completely worn out and they just gave them to the scrap man. A typical sad ending for metal shapers. Sad but true. Terry ------- Date: Wed, 05 Mar 2003 00:23:56 +0000 From: mariol.vitalex~xxatt.net Subject: Re: Re: cylinder heads Terry: A sad tale, indeed....and when someone says something silly like "well, that's progress" I want to strangle them. On the other hand when you stop to think about it, for a machine that was conceived over a century ago, and those particular shapers were probably no newer than just after WW II (more likely they were war surplus) means they were probably in productive service for over 50 years!!! Now THAT"S progress!?!?! THanks for the story. Mario ------- Date: Wed, 05 Mar 2003 01:56:52 -0000 From: "jwelsh1054" Subject: In the Barn! Just as a note of interest as a follow-up to my questions regarding the Springfield Machine Tool Co. of last week - the 12" Springfield shaper that I bought today is safely in the barn/shop. Took a bit of work - that thing is considerably heavier than I expected - but after a lot of grunting, tugging, prying, hoisting and a few specially chosen words to aid in my "stress" relief, I got it out of the back of the pickup and rolled into the corner. Hopefully, warm weather and some spare time will allow me to investigate its condition more fully. No vise or toolpost, but I'll keep looking. Only problem - now my truck is hopelessly stuck in the slush/snow between the house and the shop!! John in OH ------- Date: Fri, 07 Mar 2003 01:14:27 -0000 From: "jwelsh1054" Subject: Re: In the Barn! > Hi John, Congratulations on the shaper. I was the second Springfield > shaper inquiry that Art referred to. I had asked him what he knew about > Springfield shapers. Was the one you bought at HGR in Cleveland. I > stopped there today to take a Pix for Art & it was gone. Jim Yup ..... that's the one! It caught my eye several weeks ago when I was at HGR looking for some 2J collets. I gave it a once over and classified it as a boat anchor -- initial appearance was rough, I had never heard of Springfield Machine and it had no clapper box. Decided that I would "pass". Then, last week I was at HGR again and noticed that the shaper was still there. This time I had a flashlight and was wearing my grubbies so I gave it a much more thorough examination. The physical condition was better than I had first thought and it is a compact machine for a 12 incher. But what really iced the cake was finding the clapper box stored away in the table cavity!! This meant that it was (or easily could be) actually a functional machine! I made an offer considerably below the $100 asking price and we eventually agreed upon $75 which included a few extra non-shaper related goodies that I wanted. Actually, I'm disappointed to hear that the second inquiry that Art referred to is in regard to the same machine! I was hoping that there was at least one other Springfield shaper owner out there that I could connect with and trade info ( actually, I'm afraid that the trade would have been mostly one way - in my favor - as I know next to nothing about shapers!). Maybe I have the only living Springfield shaper remaining in existance!!! Maybe it is really quite rare and unique and actually worth thousands of dollars!!!! Yeah ..... and maybe I'm the Prince of Wales! Do you mind my asking the nature of your initial inquiry regarding the Springfield shaper?? I have the HGR listing photo file of the shaper if you and/or Art are still interested. If so, I'll try (if I can figure out how) to post is somewhere. Incidentally, the truck is still stuck!! John in OH ------- Date: Fri, 07 Mar 2003 03:19:25 -0000 From: "jimbogner" Subject: Re: In the Barn! Hi John, I have an interest in Shapers and hadn't heard of that make. It's too big for me. I have several of the smaller 7-8" variety. I asked Art about it & he was kind enough to mail me copies of several pages from Kenneth L. Cope's book "Americam Planer, Shaper and Slotter Builders 1830-1910". There are 3 pages that give the history of the company with 5 drawings of different models. If you give me your address I'll mail you a copy. One interesting thing about your shaper is the foot brake. Art may like a picture of it. Good luck with the truck. Jim ------- Date: Fri, 07 Mar 2003 07:48:40 -0000 From: "dreilanderecht" Subject: Re: 12" Steptoe > Does anyone have a manual for this model or a similar one? At this > time I am most interested in the weight. Well, I don't have the manual, but I would go out on a limb and guess that it is going to weigh around half a ton. Maybe more, probably not much less. For a comparison, my ten inch Alba with cast iron stand apparently weighs 850 lbs. I don't know for sure since I can't pick it up on my own. Don't let the weight put you off, it is not too hard to shift this sort of stuff even without hoists, so long as you exercise lots of care and patience. regards John ------- Date: Sat, 08 Mar 2003 19:20:16 -0000 From: "jwelsh1054" Subject: Springfield Shaper Photo Jim, Art, et al., I posted a photo of my recently aquired 12" Springfield shaper in the Photo section in an album entitled, Springfield Machine Tool Co. Sorry that the photo is not better; however, it is the "listing" photo that was used by the seller so it does not show too much detail and is not very complimentary. Hopefully, if others have Springfield Machine Tool equipment of any kind they can add their photos to this album. As you can see, the drive system is rather hokey. The motor direct drives a reducer that drives the 4-step flat belt pulley. It does have a rather slick belt tightening mechanism that allows for quick and easy belt step changing. I'm more than willing to try to answer any questions that you may have. John in OH ------- Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2003 09:55:48 +1300 From: Tom Subject: Re: Springfield Shaper Photo Certainly has an interesting drive line, John. That it has guarded feed gears, places it as 1918 or later, as up till then the 12" & 15" had unguarded feed gears, must have been a cost thing as all the bigger machines had them. Weight by the way was 1450 lbs, your drive system, being extra on that. Tom ------- Date: Sun, 09 Mar 2003 02:01:04 -0000 From: "gd3006" Subject: Re: Springfield Shaper Photo A picture of mine has been posted in the photo section under Spring12shaper. The two machines appear very much the same, but there are a few detail differences, such as the feed gear guarding, and the number of table t-slots. Though not shown in the picture, I was fortunate enough to get the original vise, countershaft cone and tool trays. Sincerely, Dean ------- Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2003 02:44:13 -0000 From: "dreilanderecht" Subject: Re: 100 years ago you could buy a hand planer. Anybody got one? "remlapfluke" wrote: > While reading over Kenneth Cope's book on companies who made shapers, > planers, & Slotters, I noticed that hand planers were once offered. > Real neat looking machines that had to be tough to operate. Does a > member of this group have one? If not, has somebody operated one? > I would really like to read more about them. Thanks. Jeff > Often times making chips on the shaper...just for fun. I believe they were made as recently as the fifties, if that is recent. Certainly hand shapers were still available then. One of the things that this shows is how much electric motors have come down in price and availability over the years. No doubt the operator would develop good biceps and would be a sure winner at arm wrestling, but then, think of the alternatives. If you don't have any other machine to do large flat surfaces, you will have to do them with the chisel and file like the oldtimers did. That will be even harder work, and more painstaking since the accuracy all depends on the skill of the operator. We tend to forget that anything that can be done at all, can be done with hand tools, given enough time, practice, and painstaking care. Tom Walshaw "Tubal Cain" demonstrated this with a series in the Model Engineer where he built a horizontal steam engine using only hand tools, a tour de force that I have no intention of emulating. regards John ------- Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2003 23:41:25 EST From: n8as1x~xxaol.com Subject: Re: Re: 100 years ago you could buy a hand planer. Anybody go... > I beleive they were made as recently as the fifties my cauldwell catalog,circa 1965+ listind 3-5 in english made hand shapers ..the ram traversed ,table was fixed best wishes docn8as ------- Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2003 17:35:56 -0000 From: "Dave" Subject: Pratt & Whittney 9" WOW my first Shaper ! Hi Group: Wanted to say hello to all you shaper lovers and to say that I finally got my first shaper . . . a Pratt & Whittney of aprox 9" stroke. Measuring the stroke length adjustment slot it is 8 and 7/8 inches long. From this I infer that the actual max stroke would be about 8 and a half inches? A picture of It ,and the vice correct all but one detail appears in the book "Machine Tools of 1885". In the Shapers chapter. Searched the archives here and did not come up with any mentions of PW shapers. I assume there is a listing somewhere in the files section of this board that lists all the members shaper makes but I haven't yet found it. Well It's at my place now poised outside my enlarged basement window soon to make the last leg of its journey to its new home in my basement. HAPPY DAY ! LOL Dave Lawrence ------- Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2003 08:11:32 +1200 From: Tom Subject: Re: Pratt & Whittney 9" WOW my first Shaper ! Sounds like a tool, Dave! The 9" P & W shaper, actually has a stroke of 10", the slot in the ram is for positioning the ram in relationship to the work. The vertical adjustment of the table is 9". Weight 1050 lbs with countershaft. Tom ------- Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2003 22:22:56 -0000 From: "dreilanderecht" Subject: Re: Pratt & Whittney 9" WOW my first Shaper ! As Tom says, the slot is for adjusting the position of the ram relative the the job and table, so is not necessarily the same as the stroke. In fact, on my Alba 1A of similar size, this slot is really too short. This matters when you find that you want to do a short stroke on a piece that has to mount well out on the table. Normally you would mount the piece as close to the back as possible, but where this is not possible, you can find yourself a bit stuck, eg to do the cut out at the front end of the table the stroke has to be set longer, and that could mean that the tool is close to fouling some other part of the job further back. This sort of thing is why I try to pull the machine over by hand before running under power! Anyway, one would imagine that with a Pratt and Whitney, the chips should really fly! regards John ------- Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2003 03:00:06 -0000 From: "Chris" Subject: Re: Pratt & Whittney 9" WOW my first Shaper ! Congrats, Dave I'm pretty sure that the Antique Gas Engine and Tractor Museum in Vista, CA has a P&W shaper about the same size as yours running from a line shaft in their machine shop. If you can post a picture, I'll compare it to theirs next time I get up that way. Cheers, Chris ------- Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2003 12:55:28 -0800 From: "Rick Brucken" Subject: South Bend Serial #'s Hello to the group I normally eavesdrop here and have learned a lot about shapers, thank you all. I recently took the plunge and purchased a South Bend 7" shaper and have been trying to determine when it was manufactured. I spoke with Rose at LeBlond, but she did not have anything on file to match my shaper's serial number. which is SH83782 758C. Can any of you tell from this number what year it was manufactured? Rose thought the first digit was the month (August) and the second two digits the year, but apparently these shapers weren't made as early as 1937. Also, if anyone knows of a factory 3-drawer cabinet for this shaper available for sale, please let me know. Thanks for any help, Rick Brucken ------- Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2003 22:01:09 -0000 From: "Art Volz" Subject: Re: South Bend Serial #'s Rick--My only info, which may be pure conjecture itself, was that the second and third numeral indicated year of manufacture as Rose stated. You stated that "apparently, these shapers weren't made as early as 1937." Do you have a source for "apparently" or one for the date of first manufacture? (Anyone know when SB-7's were first made?) Unfortunately, when a company is in "final mode", institutionaal knowledge--the "little old lady in tennis shoes" (IN South Bend in this case)--is always the first to be let go. Art (Houston) ------- Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2003 00:28:17 -0000 From: "al_messer" Subject: Re: South Bend Serial #'s Rick, Mine was made in 1972 and is Serial No. 15728-7S8B. Yours is probably younger than mine. I would hazzard a guess that yours was made in February of 1978. Al Messer ------- Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2003 19:40:59 -0000 From: "Art Volz" Subject: Re: South Bend serial # Rick-- Rose may be absolutely correct. The 1950's, however, just seems like getting into the shaper ball game in the bottom of the eighth. However, I've never seen a SB-7 with WWII government service tags: the bench shapers that I've seen with those tags have been AMMCO's. I have two original OEM editions of South Bend's "How to Run a Metal Working Shaper". Both of mine are "Edition 3, 1954" with Copyrights of 1966, but with a notice that it was also Coprighted in both 1952 and 1954. There is a good possibility, therefore, that 1952 may have been the SB-7's birthdate. I don't have a very extensive collection of South Bend's tool catalogs and brochures from which, if dated, to determine a closer date of probable introduction. If you have a large university library near you, you may be able to find South Bend Lathe advertisements in various 1940's and 1950's VoTech and Popular Science/Mechanics type magazines which may help to better pinpoint likely dates of introduction. Art (Houston) ------- Date: Sun, 30 Mar 2003 08:21:49 +1200 From: Tom Subject: Re: Re: South Bend serial # I have them listed in a 1950 catalog..FWIW Tom ------- Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 16:34:19 -0000 From: "Alan Painter" Subject: J. Steptoe 16 inch Shaper I have just posted some before and after pictures of my 16 inch J. Steptoe shaper that I recently made operational. The pictures are in an album on http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Metal Shapers Pix I purchased this shaper at an auction in Oregon a couple of years ago for $60. I am sure the first bidder was the local scrap iron dealer at $50 and there was no further bidding after me. It sat in my shop while I finished the interior of the shop and then refurbished an old flatbelt driven Carroll -Jamieson lathe purchased at the same auction. The shaper was complete with a shaper vice on a swivel base and everything more or less moved although it looked pretty sad in original flat black paint. The only obvious damage were broken out chunks of the table surface surrounding the hold down bolts for the vice. I finally started working on it this winter and now have it up and running. The first order of business was to devise some power to drive it. I was originally going to retain a flat belt drive system from a motor attached to the rear of the machine via a large flat pulley 22 inches in diameter that I had, and another 4 step cone pulley that I would have to make. I decided this would take up too much floor space in my shop. I had become interested in trying out the variable frequency drive idea that everyone was writing about in the magazines so I purchased a 3 hp 3 phase motor and VFD package from Dealers Electric. I hinged the motor on the back of the shaper and fashioned a lever operated clutch mounted on the right side of the machine that slackened the belts to disengage the drive. The two vee belts drive on the largest step of the cone pulley. I did have to mount two idler pulleys on the outside of the belts to ensure that the belt drive did disengage from the cone pulley surface when the belts were slackened. The belt guard I made from three pieces of old water tank, some expanded metal screen and Bondo fillets to hide the ugly welds. The VFD is mounted on the wall behind the machine and a remote control box on the right side of the machine houses ON, OFF and Reverse switches and a variable resistor for speed control. The motor is nominally 1800 rpm but with the VFD I use 500 to 900 rpm giving 26 to 46 strokes per minute. The crossfeed leadscrew nut ( square thread ) was very worn so I made a new one out of brass. The leadscrew and nut ( also square thread) for the toolpost travel was also badly worn. I was never sure when the tool would take up the slop and drop. The screw was 8 tpi and the thimble was graduated in sixty-fourths. I just don't compute in sixty- fourths very well so I made a new screw and nut in 1/2- 20 size and graduated a new thimble in thousandths. I also added a lock to the movement. These changes now make for reliable movement of the tool. I had to do some repair of the crossfeed ratchet and make a square drive wrench for the various adjustments from an old tractor starting handle. I mounted a square drive on the outer end of the cone pulley and left a hole in the belt guard so that I can hand crank the machine using the same handle to check for correct set-up before starting the motor. I am temporarily using a spare Kurt milling vise while I contemplate what to do about about the damaged table. It locates in areas of the tee slots that aren't broken out. So, after quite a few hours of work and about ten times the original investment in dollars I have a usable shaper that I am pleased with. ------- Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 20:19:07 -0000 From: "Art Volz" Subject: Making New Atlas Shapers (Was: Re: Early Atlas Shaper Manual) Anthony hit it right on the head. There is absolutely no commecial market in the USA for a re-issue of the Atlas shaper. The hobbyist market--us--is extremely small, fickle, tighter than tight, and is being adequately provided, with used Atlas & other shapers, for about $500 each plus transpo. To set up here a new (I doubt that the old patterns are even extant and the production line has long since been sold off as either used machinery or CI scrap..and, then, there's the problem of finding skilled machinists) production facility to manufacture these dinosaurs would be prohibitive and probably without any possible return on investment. Looking at machine tools being made today in the USA, and comparing degree of complexity with probable cost, a shaper such as the Atlas 7B would be in at least the $10,000 (10K) price range. When South Bend was still making/selling their 10L lathe a few years ago (is Blue Ridge still marketing this dude???) it was going for about $15,000 in the nude, without accessories, and with shipping extra. On the other hand, in a Capitalistic society such as ours, anyone with a REAL (not imagined) business plan to try to secure bank loans to start up such a company to re-manufacture a rebadged clone of Atlas 7B is welcome to do so. But, don't expect any bank to loan you any dough...not after they scour your Market Analysis...and laugh their heads off. You could even purchase, from Clausing, a set of the engineering drawings for about $7.50 (??) a part. Better yet, make a clone of the Logan-8: a complete set of dimensioned drawings is available from Scott at only $100 a complete set. Then, plans in hand, take a trip to your local foundry--if you can find one--and get an estimate for what it would cost just for a set of green castings. (Remember you have to stress relieve these pieces either in a special oven or out back for about six months where they ain't making any money before you can machine them.) That ought to be a nice sized number. Then set down with "your" manufacturing engineer/chief machinist and figure out how you're going to make each part, and the cost thereof. Ouch!!! Start with the column and figure out with what, and how you're going to jig it to work, just to machine the slideways for the ram and the table apron square to each other. You'll probably need at least a 16-inch shaper to do so. Costs, costs, costs...more costs. Remember that eBay can probably meet the market demand for only about $500 a copy...way below the costs of making a new one. Art (Houston) ------- NOTE TO FILE: The following started as a thread on divining the date code of AMMCO shapers from their serial numbers. The original discussion is in the text file "AMMCO Shapers". ------- Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 22:18:44 -0000 From: "Art Volz" Subject: Re: AMMCO Serial Number, more John-- Perhaps there's a hidden number, a form not unlike that used for error correction in data bit streams: a hidden "parity bit" as used in some "Hamming Codes". Maybe your hidden number could be "found" in this manner-- SH41522 = 4+1+5+2+2 = 14. Since 14 is an even number, its parity bit is 1 (if the "addition" had been odd, it would have been a 0) so, in this "serial number model" the complete number, with hidden parity bit attached, would be: SH415221. Therefore, your shaper was the 421st one made in January of 1952!!! It's perfectly obvious that that's the case! But then, also, it might just be, with parity bit attached, six-bit assembly language...and, if so, we're right back into the middle of the "thicket". :-) With the frequency that AMMCO's appear on eBay, the AMMCO was probably made in numbers (relatively) comparable to the Atlas. In my recollection, they are the only ones I remember seeing, in this 7- incher size, with Armed Forces Identification Plates affixed. Somewhere, they may even have had a special ARMY Technical Manual (TM), like did the Later SB-7, but I have never seen one. Most likely the principle Army TM was TM 1-421, "Milling Machines, Shapers, and Planers", April 20, 1942. In the back of this TM is a distribution scheme, but one would have to have a 1942 forces structure to include respective TO&E's (Tables of Organization and Equipment) as a minimum to try to determine what that meant in possible quantities of what kind of shapers. Probably, if one could get access to WWII Ordnance procurement documents--in some dusty file deep within the bowels of the Pentagon (next to the Top Secret plans for the bombay doors on the Enola Gay)--a determination of Army procured quantities could be more accurately determined. AMMCO, and all of its history, is most likely long gone; I doubt that the current Delta has any "recollection" either. The ones made in China--and in India--are industrial machines, not small 7-inchers. One of the lads in Australia, last year, obtained a Chinese shaper currently being manufactured. There are PICs of it in "Photos" here and in message postings of the same time period. Several years ago, Joe W. (JRW), I, and several others from the Houston HMSC, had an "experimental" group here on Yahoo (still exists, but VERY dormant) trying to access the possibilities of making, in America, a hobbyist lathe...at reasonable cost and still being able to make a profit. Few, however, were willing to change old ways of construction and design even if the new machine's capabilities were equal or better. Some of our "straw-men" proposals included pipe/tubing, electronic controls (fly by wire), steppers/servos, polymer-concrete mass structures, and other cost- saving means. NOPE!!! If it wasn't a cast iron South Bend 10, exactly like Granpaw bought in the '40's they didn't want it. AND, the price had to remain at the $500 (?) level that Granpaw had paid. What Joe and I determined from this "experiment" was that even though a much cheaper in cost lathe could be built using modern techniques, that no one would buy it, ESPECIALLY NOT THE HOBBYISTS. We pretty well determined, at that time, that we were wasting our time. Shapers could also be so modernized...and while the "Metal_Shapers" group is, on the whole, a much more knowledgible and sophisted group, that acceptance of such a "NEW" machine would also be extremely limited. Machine tools, those being still built in the US today, exhibit almost total technological change when compared to thier ancestors of the WWII era. Cast iron still is used, but so are huge weldments and polymer concrete for frames and structures. Some machines still use metal-on-metal friction slideways, most do not: they use off-the- shelf bolted on anti-friction-bearing slideway assemblies. The list of technical differences goes on...and on... Anyone want to make a concrete shaper...on the cheap...with stepper motor driven tables and direct-screw-drive rams? I doubt it. Art (Houston) ------- Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 23:40:59 -0000 From: "dreilanderecht" Subject: Re: AMMCO Serial Number, more In Metal_Shapersx~xxyahoogroups.com, "Art Volz" wrote: > John--erhaps there's a hidden number, a form not unlike that used for > error correction in data bit streams: a hidden "parity bit" as used > in some "Hamming Codes". Maybe your hidden number could be "found" > in this manner-- Nah.....Its just that I have the oldest Ammco about, nyah nyah nyah! Of course some one will now pop up with an even shorter number. :) > The ones made in China--and in India--are industrial machines, not > small 7-inchers. One of the lads in Australia, last year, obtained a > Chinese shaper currently being manufactured. There are PICs of it > in "Photos" here and in message postings of the same time period. A good big one will always beat a good little one! (Not always true of course, especially for those who don't have space.) I did get to use a Chinese one at the polytechnic last year, it was a machine that I would happlily give shop space to. >Anyone want to make a concrete shaper...on the cheap...with stepper > motor driven tables and direct-screw-drive rams? I doubt it. There would I think be a few takers, it would be the guys whose focus is on wanting the machine for the use they could make of it, rather than on the machine itself. Which is probably rather similar to the group who build Gingery machines. Not meant as a put down, the Gingery designs are functional but not the same as a "standard" machine, for excellent reasons. But people are in fact very conservative. In the Model Engineering clubs here, there is a strong body of opinion that the Myford is the Model Engineers lathe, and so when someone shows up with anything else, whether Boxford, Emco, Far Eastern or whatever, there are likely to be remarks about it not really being a Model Engineers lathe. Now, the Myford does have some well thought out features like the relatively large slotted cross slide which help make the machine more versatile than some. But you can build a locomotive on other machines too. The trend to larger locomotives is helping to dispose of this attitude a bit, since you can't easily build much bigger than five inch gauge on a Myford. When my Dad built a rack and pinion tailstock feed for the Myford there were those who didn't really think it was the proper thing to do, it was "nonstandard". Well, Ok, the machine didn't originally come that way, but Myford do (or did) make a lever feed of their own, and it does in fact add greatly to the utility of the machine. This sort of thing was mentioned in "Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance, the bit where the guy with the BMW bike wouldn't let him shim the handlebars with beercan, even though it is excellent shimstock. Although it is pretty thin these days. I saw a similar thing when a friend arrived on a Yamaha once with a failed rectifier, it was mounted under the battery and the diodes had received a dose of sulphuric from a cracked battery. Since they were naked dies attached to a steel plate and covered with silcone rubber, they had died. So I made up a new rectifier with gold plated stud mounted 50 Amp diodes from RCA, all mounted on a nice aluminium heatsink and unobtrusively located under the side cover where acid couldn't leak on it and where it could get a cooling breeze too. Sent him on his way with a new battery and a better setup, and a few weeks later he brough me back the rectifier assembly, he had decided to go to the shop and get the standard part. Never mind that the standard part cost about a weeks pay and was inferior to the one we had put in... Of course, it is a bit different when you have something that is literally a museum piece and want to keep it close to original. But then, in that case the line shafting and flat belts and so on is the object of the hobby. If you just want to build stuff, you should focus on the capability of the machines. But I fear that we are irrational creatures at heart. regards John ------- Date: Thu, 01 May 2003 00:40:59 +0000 From: mariol.vitalex~xxatt.net Subject: Re: Re: AMMCO Serial Number, more John, Re "Zen And The Art Of MC Mechanics" Reminds me of the time when I was in college. Two classmates, one from Chicago and one from Cleveland, came to visit me at my home in New York during summer vacation. They were both riding their relatively new Honda 250 Scramblers.(this was in 1967) On arrival they were concerned. A front wheel bearing on one of the bikes had "gone south". After removing the bearing, 'mic'-ing it and calling every motorcycle dealer and bearing supply hose in New York City, only to find out they were all closed. Wanting to leave early the next morning to go to Lime Rock Connetticut, to watch sports car races, we were in a panic. My father wandered up and casually asked to see the bearing. He held it up (at arms length, so his aging eyes could focus), put it down and wandered off. A few minute later he wandered back and casually said "here, try this." as he handed me a bearing. It was a perfect replacement! When I asked where he got it, he explained that it was one that he had replaced in the Bendix washing machine! My father bought that washing machine in 1945, the year I was born and has maintained it ever since...replacing bearings regularly, replacing seals and waterpumps when neccesary, rebuilding water pumps and making seals when they were no longer available. My friend was a little more pragmatic than yours; he rode the bike back to Chicago, then back to scjhool in St. Louis, and raced it in scrambles and enduros for several years without replacing the bearing. By the way, the Bendix washing machine is still in regular use...my older brother now maintains it. Mario ------- Date: Thu, 01 May 2003 04:00:14 -0000 From: "dreilanderecht" Subject: Re: Bendix washing machines So Bendix must have been using metric bearings as far back as 1945? I thought you Americans were a bit backwards on the metric stuff....or "Japanese Imperial" as we sometimes used to call it. My Dad replaced a bearing in a dishwasher motor once, one of the cheap nasty motors where they weld the end covers onto the stack of laminations. No problem, just use an angle grinder to allow the cover to be removed. Some of the modern washing machines use a motor which has a permanent magnet rotor, and use a VFD type of device to control the speed, braking, and so on. A motor like that is in effect a big stepper motor, maybe quarter or third horsepower. Now does that give you any ideas??? hmmm, how did we get here? regards John ------- Date: Thu, 01 May 2003 16:27:28 +1200 From: Tom Subject: Re: Re: Bendix washing machines Metric bearings in the US goes back to before 1920, when the US motor industry approached SKF of Sweden to become a supplier of bearings as they were the premier manufacturer. SKF response was: You vant our bearinks? Vell dey are more expensive in imperial sizes, ze metric vons ist cheaper! Ve make more metric than imperial! So that's why US autos have had, for donkey's years, metric sized bearings. GM held out as they owned New Departure, still used ball bearings for front wheel bearings in the brands up to 1960. Tom ------- Date: Mon, 05 May 2003 11:28:58 -0000 From: "rjacksonzener" Subject: Re: douglas shaper --- In Metal_Shapersx~xxyahoogroups.com, "jparlane66" wrote: > Hi all, I'm new to the group but have just bought a douglas 10.5" > shaper for nz$200 thats about us$66 and would like a bit of info on > the machine. It looks to be in fairly good order complete except the > rod which connects to the forward /reverse ratchet rocker. The motor > is a dead 3/4 hp 3 phase which I will replace with a 1hp single phase > one. Needs a good bath with kero but thats to be expected. > Haven't run a shaper for 40 years since the days when i spent a lot > of time planing cylinder heads and making ford ten cars go a lot > faster. thanks Jim Jim, I'm new here too and also just aquired a Douglas. I don't think that there is a lot of info around specific to this machine. As far as general info goes there are several really good manuals in the files section of this list and no shortage of live experience here as well. I would like to dig up some info on this machine just to satisfy curiousity as well as it being a bit unusual in that there aren't a hell of a lot of Australian made machine tools around. What I've dug up so far.... You have one (NZ) I have one (AUS) Terry (on this group/with pictures) has one (AUS) Someone in Queensland probably has one because there was a wanted addvert in the latest Australian Model Engineering seeking manuals etc for one (AUS) The maker was PK Douglas Pty Ltd in Enfield (Sydney suburb)- this company shows in the ASIC (Australian secuities regulator) listing as being "deregistered" with no other info. I think that this means they ceased to be some time before computer record keeping, which I think started around 1980 for ASIC. Mine has markings that suggest it came from a Sydney high school - one that I think was built in baby boomer times (for high schools probably late 50s maybe early 60s). One other I have seen at a dealer's was from Sydney Teacher's College. My guess is that these machines were popular in the Australian educational market (or NSW anyway), a bit like the Hercus lathe. I have also had 3 different people say to me that they remember using one at school. There also seems to be at least 2 versions in that mine has a clutch but Terry's doesn't. The odd thing is that this machine and/or maker just doesn't show up on the internet. I have searched for and found some pretty obscure things on the net, but the Douglas shaper is a total secret apart from this group and another run by Terry. Somewhere there is a manual in a school library or on a teachers bookshelf. There are probably some class notes made on one of theose sprit duplicator machines as well. Anybody know a school metalwork teacher at just about retiring age? Anybody know any bits and pieces about the Douglas Shaper? Ron ------- Date: Mon, 05 May 2003 20:18:54 -0000 From: "dreilanderecht" Subject: Re: douglas shaper, more Ocker stuff While we are on obscure Aussy shaper stuff, when I acquired my Alba 4S, inside the table was an incredibly rusty collecionn of tooling, mostly looking like it might be meant to be tools for either internal keyways or boring on a lathe. There was one toolholder of the type someties called a shaper planer tool, but it was so ruty that I just put it aside for the moment. Anyway, at the weekend I became inspired somehow, and started cleaning it up. The rust was pretty thick, but turned out not to have pitted the surface badly undserneath, and it cleaned up quite well...so well in fact that I can make out the details forged into the side. It is a "LOCK" brand, "MADE IN AUST". Which must be Australia because the Austrians would have used German. Having got it nice and clean, including cleaning up the thread, I have treated it with gun blue and it now looks nearly as good as the brand new Jones and Shipman one that I picked up on Saturday. This is the type of toolholder where the forged bar has an eye on the end, and the back of the eye is machined with shallow slots. They run vertical, horizontal, and at 45 degrees. A round headed bolt with a square hole just below the head holds a piece of 5/16 square tool steel in any of the slots, permitting it to be set at any of the angles available. The Aussy one is about eight inches long overall. As I mentioned, I also scored a bigger one on Saturday. One of the local tool suppliers has just moved, and to avoid a big stocktake are selling off a whole lot of interesting stuff. One of the items was a new J & S toolholder, about ten inches long. Since they only wanted NZ$10, I grabbed it. Actually it came with a good big piece of HSS that would be liable to cost that much on its own. So the big tool holder can go on the Alba 4S and the smaller one on the Alba 1A. (They also have Clarkson autolock chucks for NZ$20, with no collets.) But those with the Douglas machines should keep their eyes peeled, you might be able to find genuine Ocker tooling to go with your genuine Ocker machine. regards John ------- Date: Tue, 6 May 2003 22:07:30 +1000 From: "Ron Jackson" Subject: RE: Re: douglas shaper, more Ocker stuff John, Sounds like a great deal on the tooling. I think you are correct about made in oz. I have vague recollections of seeing this brand around lathes years ago, probably at tech college where I did 1 term of "workshop technology" in an electronics course. My Douglas had a LOCK toolholder in the toolpost when I bought it. Unfortunately not the adjustable angle type you describe, but just a straight type with about 10 deg tool rake built in. Looks like it has been in the shaper since day 1, but still quite ok. Actually I think it is not a shaper toolholder at all, but meant for a lathe. When I have some time, I will use Art's drawing of a tool holder like yours to make one. The shallow slots look like a good shaper job. Ron ------- Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 09:10:52 -1000 (HST) From: Tom Benedict Subject: Re: 12 in. Sheldon shaper available! On Wed, 14 May 2003, frankdorion wrote: > This shaper appears to be just about perfect. It is in a private home > shop, and I doubt that it ever saw any serious commercial use. The > asking price is $900, but it may be negotiable. It's so nice I was > tempted to buy it even though I already have one. (Is that a sickness?) Yes, it is. It is definitely a sickness. I finally got to the boxes where my shop books were packed two nights ago. As I was shelving them I realized just how much stuff I'd bought from Lindsay. I've now got four books on gear design and cutting. But know what? I'd buy another one in a heartbeat. Can never have enough books, can never have enough tools. Surely surely you could come up with a project that would REQUIRE two shapers running simultaneously. Right? (Right?) If for no other reason, this way you can invite friends over and you can both be going at once. Tom P.S. No, that line of reasoning never worked with my wife, either. The only way I got my Lewis home was to claim it followed me when I left the auction, and gosh couldn't I keep it? PuhlEEEEEZE? ------- Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 22:49:20 -0000 From: "dreilanderecht" Subject: Re: run them both at once You can in fact run more than one shaper at a time, and probably in the long distant times when they were to be found in production shops, this would have been the norm. My own personal best was running two shapers, the lathe, and the bandsaw all at once. The bandsaw was the only one that would turn itself off at the end of a cut, so it didn't matter that it was in another shed. The lathe neeeded the most attention since leaving it too long would have spoilt the chuck. :) You have to keep your eyes open doing this sort of stuff, and it is hard to keep it up for long because you can't really set up a job easily while minding another machine. OK for production work where you have jigs so you just put the piece in and clamp it down, but if you have to set the piece up from scratch, it takes too much concentration to be able to mind a couple of other machines at the same time. It also requires work that can be done on automatic feed, eg not shaping out a slot or up to a shoulder. Not unless you have arranged an automatic cutoff. Of course, I have more machines now, maybe I can arrange an auto feed on the mill drill, then I could do three shapers, two lathes and a mill drill......naaah, the fuse wouldn't stand it... Have you compared the books on gear cutting? I noticed that the one I have, bought back in the seventies from MAP, uses the same diagrams as are in Modern Machine Shop Practice. regards John -------- Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2003 10:12:26 -0600 From: "Richard " Subject: End of Voyage to Collect Shaper I returned last night to Boulder, CO, after a 4,000 mile round trip to pick up the Southbend 7" shaper from Lyons, New York. A friend with a truck was gracious enough to offer to accompany me. We set out on 7/15, and made it to Omaha the first night. The second night we stayed in Toledo. On the third day we made it to Pine Grove Mills, PA, and visited Andy Lofquist, proprietor of Metal Lathe Accessories -- he provides beautiful kits for accessories for the Southbend 9" lathe, although many are readily adaptable for other machines as well. Stopping at Andy's was a treat because his shop is so sparse and small, yet he manages to produce such lovely, intricate work. He is a true artist. I left quite a bit of money on the table, buying many of those kits I had been eyeballing for a while, and justifying it to myself that at least this way I was avoiding UPS charges on 146 lbs. of iron castings!!! After seeing Andy we pushed on to Horseheads, NY, and checked into a motel at about 2 a.m. The next morning we made it to Lyons, NY, quite early, and loaded the shaper: It is gorgeous, with the original stand and vise, and very little wear. I am quite pleased with it. So we headed through Buffalo and into Ontario, stopping briefly in Niagara Falls. We slept in Windsor, Ontario, that night, and recrossed into the Detroit the next morning, spending a chunk of the day at the Henry Ford Museum. We made it to Holland, MI, by nightfall. We took the ferry from Ludington, MI, to Manitowoc, WI the next morning -- a pleasant respite from driving -- and then had lunch in Green Bay at an old railway depot converted into a microbrew pub. I bought a Bridgeport cherrying attachment from a guy in that area, and we visited the National Railway Museum nearby. We made it to Hudson, WI, by night. The next day I cracked open the paper only to find that a local Minneapolis technical school was liquidating some of their machine tools, and so that day was lost: I saw a Monarch lathe go for $1,000, an Emco CNC turning center, complete, go for $500, etc. I spent about $190.00, picking up a couple of small annealing ovens and some abrasives. We spent the rest of the day at a friend's place where my fellow traveler picked up a molding bench. Now the truck was FULL!!! The next morning we set off and made it to Rapid City, SD, and yesterday we dropped down past Mount Rushmore, etc., through Cheyenne, to home. The odometer showed just about 4,000 miles in 8 days as we arrived. Just an example of one guy pursuing his shaper . . . vty -- rbp ------- Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2003 12:24:30 -0500 From: Mike M Fendley Subject: Re: End of Voyage to Collect Shaper Richard, What an enjoyable trip that must have been! You missed one great store in Minneapolis though. When ever I pass through I always stop at "Tried and True Tools." They are a consignment store. You bring in your used tools to sell, they take a small commission and sell it for you. The accessories and tools you find there are fantastic! Got a t-slotted extension table for my Logan shaper (it would fit any 7-10' shaper) for $20. No dings, pits, chips, looked brand new. Picked up a t-slotted, oil trough square drill press table that interchanges with my big round slotted one. Now I keep the vise on the square one, and two of the special drill press type vise grips on the round slotted one. I just switch tables for setups now. Also picked up a 10" face plate with tapped 3/8 holes all over it on an MT4 mount. Perfect for putting on my Alexander (Think Deckel F1) V/H mill to hold a 20" diameter pulley if I needed to machine one and use the mill like a lathe. No I'm not the sales guy at Tried and True . . . but if you're ever in the area of the north suburbs of the Twin Cities, go to Fridley, up University Ave. to about 78th st. The store is huge with both mechanical stuff, mechanics tools, wood working, and metal working . . . plus tons of shop type magazines. Don't forget to bring your wallet or your credit card, you will use it! Have fun with the SB and keep makin linear chips! Mike Fendley, LeClaire, Iowa PS How 'bout a picture of your new prize in the shaper pix soon? ------- Date: Sun, 28 Sep 2003 08:59:49 -0500 From: "Mario L Vitale" Subject: Re: Re: Art, is the Dvorak shaper a Lewis shaper? Mike in Iowa --- Original Message ----- From: "Mike M Fendley" > Art, > After looking at those fabulous Lewis shaper pix that you posted the link > to, I've come to the conclusion that my friend's Dvorak shaper (that > clearly has Dvorak cast in the door) is in actuality a Lewis shaper! > However, I need some ways of identifying it. First the Dvorak has the > same elevation screw on the side (and I've never seen that in another > shaper type). It is a 10" shaper, but it's box table can rotate side to > side. Can the Lewis do that? The drive on the side with the big crank > pin and the pulley shaft locations - identical to the Dvorak. Were the > ratchet mechanisms different from machine to machine? The Dvorak is > similar but a little more exotic than what the pictures show. The Dvorak > has a large hollow cast iron base that it sits on. It also has sort of a > hinged table that comes off the back for the drive motor. That looked > added on but was substantial and solid. We were thinking of cutting a > door in the side of the base and putting the drive motor there so as to > save space off the back end. The ram looks the same as well. Are there > numbers on the castings anywhere? Seems to me you mentioned that in past > postings (but I've deleted them.) The Dvorak did not have a vise (sorry > to get your hopes up.) My friend is on vacation and gets back in Oct. > If you can get me some sure fire ways of identifying a Lewis, we can at > least put the Dvorak name where it should be . . . next to (or under) the > name Lewis. By the way the shaper is in pieces, cleaned, but not primed > or painted yet. And then there is "some assembly required." Mike in Iowa Mike, the surest way I know to identify a Lewis is the number "603" cast into the top of the ram. I don't think the Lewis even came with a door. It was supplied as a set of rough castings, or semi-finished rough casting of castings. As it says in their 1942 catolog "This unit, as with our milling machine, is available as a semi-finished machine. In this...set we have doone all the planing, milling, boring and other machine work that cannot be done on a small lathe and drill." I suspect that your friend's Lewis was build by a very capable HSM named Dvorak who cast his own door and personalized it. Mario ------- Date: Sun, 28 Sep 2003 15:30:36 -0000 From: "Art Volz" Subject: Re: Art, is the Dvorak shaper a Lewis shaper? Mike in Iowa Mike--The correct Lewis OEM door is as seen in the current eBay Lewis shaper PIX. It's flat and has no name on it. (Unless the door you have is like Mario's after-market "fried egg" door where it would have in cast lettering "Lodge" and directly underneath, in semi- circular lettering, "USA 3SK". The door on my Lewis is exactly the same as the eBay Lewis and of cast iron. As Mario suggests, the door you have with "Dvorak" cast-in lettering was either made specially by the person building that Lewis kit or, perhaps, it was liberated from one of the "Last of the Mohicans": the now extinct Dvorak-9.625. > However, I need some ways of identifying it. First the Dvorak has the > same elevation screw on the side (and I've never seen that in another > shaper type). The elevating screw on the left side is a definate Lewis characteristic. I, also, have never seen that design on another shaper. > It is a 10" shaper, but it's box table can rotate side to > side. Can the Lewis do that? The Lewis' table is mounted to the traversing apron with a huge bolt which, by design, allows it to rotate. Some Lewis', like mine, were modified when built so that a horizontal about 1/2-inch square key, of table width, secured/aligned the table horizontally for normal operations. Loosening the bolt and removing the key allowed, then, the table to be rotated and re-clamped at the angle desired. The Lewis' were 10-inch shapers--it was the only shaper that they made. The drive on the side with the big crank > pin and the pulley shaft locations - identical to the Dvorak. Were the > ratchet mechanisms different from machine to machine? The Dvorak is > similar but a little more exotic than what the pictures show. From Lewis to Lewis, there are variations where the kit builder wanted to "improve" and show his "design genius". Normally these variations can be seen in the steel parts and not (other than cutting off and "styling") in the OEM provided cast iron parts. >The Dvorak > has a large hollow cast iron base that it sits on. It also has sort of > a hinged table that comes off the back for the drive motor. That looked > added on but was substantial and solid. I have seen one Lewis (was that yours Lew?) that had been mounted on a substantial cast iron base. Such a base was NOT provided by the Lewis Machine Tool Company. Going thru my library holdings I identified that base as most likely coming from the cast iron base, at the headstock end, of either a Flather (Nashua, N.H.) l6-inch screw machine or a 26-inch turret head chucking lathe, both offered starting in 1893. Motor mountings, and counter-shafts, and reducing pulley trains, were not offered by Lewis--they felt, apparently, that anyone (school shops or hobbyists) who could build one could figure out how best to power it on their own. They offered no suggestions whatsover, so that all of the Lewis' that I have seen are totally different in this reqards. > We were thinking of cutting a door in the side of the base and > putting the drive motor there so as to save space off the back end. That sounds like a winner. If the base casting doesn't have a door (the Flather did) go for it. What might be cool--I have one mounted on my shop door, but haven't cut the hole thru yet--is to use a large brass hinged port hole taken from a boat--or an olde derelict Mississippi packet. That would add some local flavor since Old Man River flows right outside the door of the Gray Bus...unless it's flowing thru it. :-) >The ram looks the same as well. Are there > numbers on the castings anywhere? Seems to me you > mentioned that in past postings (but I've deleted them.) The number cast on the front top of the ram, and readible from the left front side of the shaper, is "603". (If your "Lewis-Dvorak" is an extremely early version with ram box-slideways, like Kay F's, it might not have that number cast-in.) In bad light, or with too many coats of paint, the "3" can sometime appear to be an "8", but I can assure you that the correct part number for the ram IS "603". As far as cast-in markings--numbers or letters--the "603" on top of the ram is all there is. I made several mock-up doors (and Mario's fried egg one also) for the Lewis using for one the scripted Lewis logo that appears on the cover of some of their catalogs. Both this mockup and Mario's fried egg door can be seen here in "Photos" at the album entitled "Art's Doors". If there was any interest I would pursue further the feasibility of casting a limited number of such a scripted "Lewis" door, maybe in the form of a cast aluminum or ZA-12 medallion to affix to the standard flat Lewis door. >The Dvorak did not have a vise (sorry to get your hopes up.) DARN IT!! And here, in anticipation, I had started to get goose bumps! >My friend is on vacation and gets back in Oct. > If you can get me some sure fire ways of identifying a Lewis, we can at > least put the Dvorak name where it should be . . next to (or under) the > name Lewis. By the way the shaper is in pieces, cleaned, but not primed > or painted yet. And then there is "some assembly required." I can help you with the assembly process and dimensioned sketches of parts that you may need to fabricate. Also, just down the river, a league or two from you, is Mario's Lewis in Santa Luigi. Art in Houston, Republic of Texas...and wondering if I should scramble up some cackle berries and "Freedom Toast" (ex French) for nooner grub B4 the ball games start. I've got a couple spare NIB six- inch skillets...just itching to be seasoned before they too spend eternity as doors...doors on Lodge shapers. ------- Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2003 03:57:27 -0000 From: "Art Volz" Subject: Vernon Shaper PIX: 11-inch & 12-inch., plus other Vernon Machine Tools I have created a "Photo" Album entitled "Vernon Machine Tools" at our alternative site: http://www.groups.yahoo.com/group/Metal_Shapers_Pix Vernon machines pictured are both the 11-inch and 12-inch shapers, the Model 0 horizontal milling machine, and the combination vertical milling machine & jig borer. When Sheldon acquired Vernon, these machine tools were then re-labeled Sheldon-Vernon with, apparently, little if any modification or improvement. Art (Houston) ------- Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2003 20:47:13 -0000 From: "Peter Verbree" Subject: Peter's great Planer adventure!! Hello All! I really went and did it this time :-)) I traveled 2500km, 26hrs driving to pick up a "cherry" (rose colored glasses firmly installed) 12"x12"x30" Pratt and Whitney Planer It will need a little work (yeh right) to get it going, but how many of you guys can admit to owning a planer? (GLOAT!!) I've posted a couple of pictures on my web page for anyone who is interested. I've also posted a couple of pictures of Frank Dorion's little "Wormwood" Planer, and when I figure out how to do it I have a couple of video clips of it in motion. It's just too cute!! we even had it making chips on saturday! Cheers Pete http://www.angelfire.com/sc3/shapeaholic/index.html ------- Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2003 21:42:29 -0000 From: "theleblondman" Subject: Re: Peter's great Planer adventure!! Thats wonderfull, a dream come true. . Well dream or fantasy . I have been having a recurring daydream about owning an old planer too. I saw some movie lately that had some activitys going on in the basement of an old stone castle there were large hanging cast iron firepots hanging from well sooted chains and it seemed blacksmithing going on . . I could visualize on old planer being in the background. Then in keepng with the Errol Flynn type of action ( heroic atheletic sword fights ) and ALWAYS a damsel in distress . .. . . I thought how intersting it would be to have the action to revolve around the distressed lady tied to the table of a slowly moving planer. . . Automatic downfeed activated for sure. Well so far I have a very old Pratt & Whitney 10" shaper that I'm somewhat love with Just received my 3 hp VFD for the lineshaft driver motor. My basement looks kind of like a stone cave and my wife can easily act distressed so I ask her If she would pose for a photoshoot and a video session . Almost blowed it though making some comment about an antique woman to go with an antique shaper would look good together . . . with some fast talking convinced her I ment that in 'bout 40 years when she's 'bout 90 she'd still look great in a photo with an antique shaper She says yes she'll cooperate in anything I dream up . . Main problem now is lack of power downfeed. I'll to get started painting that thing black LOL Dave ------- Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2003 22:04:23 -0000 From: "stevenson_engineers" Subject: Igor is alive !!! I went down to London today to pick this Elliot 14" shaper up. Decent trip down but when I got there no Elliot. The guy had made a mistake in describing the machine, easily done as Elliot's were a big Machine tool dealer here in the UK, he'd read the agents plate and not the big ALBA cast in 6" high letters on the side !! Also I have no idea where he got the 14" from as the model is just listed as Alba 4M but the ram scale is clearly marked at 18" So I set off expecting an Elliot 14" weighing in at about 3/4 ton and finished up with an Alba 18" at about a ton and a quarter. That made the truck grunt. Steady ride back and I had to take the vise, the bed box and the ram off before the crane could manage it. Got it dropped into position, box, vise and ram back on, wired up and Igor was alive again. Only had time for a quick play because I had to do some emergency jobs before I could get this machine in place. Customers are a right pain in the ax~xx#$. Runs nice and smooth and quiet. Pic of the machine installed at:- http://homepage.ntlworld.com/stevenson.engineers/lsteve/files/alba1.jpg The machine behind this is a Butler 6" vertical slotter. Pic of the cutting. http://homepage.ntlworld.com/stevenson.engineers/lsteve/files/alba2.jpg This is a block of steel 3" wide and the cut is 1/4" deep. On the other end the cut was 3/8" but the tool was a little blunt. John S. ------- Date: Sun, 19 Oct 2003 20:59:05 -0000 From: "Art Volz" Subject: Davis & Egan Shaper in Sydney, Australia In Metal_Shapersx~xxyahoogroups.com, "Greg N." wrote: > Not boasting yet but how does a 15" Davis & Egan shaper with vice, > for $50AUS sound ? > Due to forgetting batteries for the new-fangled camera, all i've > ended up with so far are pictures of the door, which can be seen here: > http://www.topnet.com.au/~hairbear/davis_egan_01.JPG > http://www.topnet.com.au/~hairbear/davis_egan_02.JPG > What i'd really like to know is how or why a machine made in > Cincinnati with a nameplate from a Scottish engineers firm, ended up > in a shed in Sydney, Australia ? > Anyway, hopefully picking up the rest of the shaper this week. > Regards, Greg N. Greg--Sounds like a super price. Send me the door forthwith for verification of authenticity: the address of the "International Center for Shaper Door Identification & Verification" will be sent to you shortly, via back-channel, along with packing and other shipping information. Remember: do EXACTLY as you are told! :-) Davis & Egan Machine Tool Co., Cincinnati, was formed 1 Sep 1896 as a reorganization of the Lodge & Davis Machine Tool Co., also of Cincinnati. The new company continued the manufacture of the machines previously manufactured by Lodge & Davis inluding their Improved 15-inch Crank Shaper which is apparently the model that you just purchased. Davis & Egan reorganized in 1898 as the American Tool Works Co., so it is probable that your shaper was made in 1896 or later. While it is known that American Tool Works continued making Davis & Egan shaper designs, it is not known whose name was cast onto the doors. Anyway, after a fire which destroyed all of the old patterns, American Tool introduced a completely new line of shapers in 1902. Illustrations of a new back geared 16-inch shaper introduced in 1900 shows that these shapers, at least, had "The American Tool Works Co., Cincinnatti, USA" cast at the bottom of their columns. All that said, I think that your shaper was probably made during the period 1896-1898 and may have been even made up to about 1902 when the patterns were destroyed. You have a piece of old American iron (probably cast in part of scrap iron from American Civil War iron clad river gun boats and their cannon--Cincinnati was a major Civil War ship yard for such steamers which fought for control of the Mississippi River) and thus you should be considerate and use moderate driving speeds along with continuous lubrication. >From the PICs of your door, it appears that the ID plate of the Scottish Engineering firm is affixed with screws to the door. This firm may have been a shaper distributor, an engineering and manufacturing company itself, or may have even been a Scottish Engineering firm performing engineering contracts (what kind??) in Australia, and perhaps in Sydney itself. You may wish to research historical records maintained within the Sydney metropolitan area to see if you can identify such a Scottish firm doing business there from the late 1890's until at least the First World War. Art (Houston) ------- Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2003 11:24:13 -0500 From: Doug Chartier Subject: Re: Re: Cincinnati shaper At 11:10 AM 10/25/2003, you wrote: >What a unique shaper and of good size [14"]. At 1430 lbs it's not too fat >either, and should be readily transported. Was the shaper made in >France and "badged" a Cincinnati? A further bit of trivia - Cincinnati, the Cincinnati that makes the larger shapers, made different models of the same size. Not unique, I know. Their heavy duty is really heavy in addition to being a heavy duty machine. It's several hundred pounds if not a few thousand pounds heavier than similar size machines of different brands. The standard Cincinnati is still heavy. Not in the class as the heavy duty, but still as heavy or heavier than most of the other brands. The 14" has none of the bulk or appearance of the larger Cincinnati, and is no where close to the heavy duty model. As Art suggests, it may well be an import with a Cincinnati name tag, or it might be an import that was never connected with Cincinnati at all. Seems the town name doesn't have any copyrite restrictions. Doug C. Houston, Tex. ------- Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2003 16:45:14 -0000 From: "Art Volz" Subject: Re: Cincinnati shaper Pete & Doug-- Cincinnati Incorporated is the current name of the old Cincinnati Shaper company who discontinued their shaper line in 1967. See: http://e-ci.com , fone 513-367-7100. There were a lot of "Cincinnati" machine companys over the years, some with "Cincinnati" as part of their names, some with other names that just manufactured tools in Cincinnati such as the Steptoe before it went "Western". The other major shaper-ish Cincinnati company was Cincinnati Planer who didn't make shapers. They were absorbed by Giddings and Lewis now a German company owned by Thyssen- Krupp, "instrument" makers for the 1940's European dance band "Adolph & The Goose Steppers". I have panoramic B&W original photos of two years, in the late 1940's, of Cincinnati Planer's annual family picnic...like companys did in those days. Also have a copy of their "Treatise on Planers". Their old buildings and grounds are now probably a park, a high rise, a strip shopping center, or a parking lot these days--manufacturing is just too nasty to have in a self- respecting socialist city...these days...one on the Federal dole. Art (Houston) ------- Date: Tue, 04 Nov 2003 20:31:06 -0500 From: "Michael R. Roesch" Subject: Picking up my Rhodes 7" - The Saga Continues! Well folks it's time I posted this, still don't have my photos up but here's the story so far... After much groaning and moaning I (as I have said in past posts) acquired a shaper! Not just any old (and I mean really old) shaper mind you! A Rhodes 7"! Just had to have something different! Got it for the opening bid of $200 clams (that's BC for dollars) + shipping. Then got to haggling with freightquote.com on the phone for "dock to terminal" rates...to save on those pesky $100 residential delivery fees and $30-50 lift gate fees. Got it shipped to me for $158....from CT to Chattanooga, TN! (Insert grin here). The appointed day arrives, Dominion Freight Lines calls! I'm off to "sunny Rossville GA" about ten miles from my home where the terminal is located. Of course I had "help" in the form of one of my home brewing (beer) club friends. On the way I'm trying to explain what a shaper is to my buddy. He works for a engineering firm that develops artificial limbs, so you can imagine the shop there, plasma cutters, water jet cutters, EDM's, Laser Cutters, CNC, etc. I'm explaining "well you know what a milling machine can do?", "well a shaper can do it too, but it can something a mill can't!" So he bites and I explain in my own colorful way: "It can F**ing make square holes!" and I explained how the ram works with the clapper and tool, He finally grasps it and goes "No Sh**t?" I say "Yea, before there were EDM's, Water Jets and Laser Cutters there were SHAPERS!" I think he is truly amazed at my astute purchase! Well we arrive at the terminal, sign for the freight and roll my Jeep Grand Cherokee around to the dock. Note that I did not mention the fact that I had no trailer! My plan is to (If we have to) disassemble the shaper and load it as the base and top into my Jeep's cavernous rear cargo area! When the forklift driver brings my palletized shaper down to the Jeep, I can see that my buddy and the forklift driver both think I am nuts! The fork truck driver says "you do know this thing weighs 525lbs!" I can hardly contain myself! I only paid for 4