Here find many users' tips on operating a metal shaper. The metal shaper files are sometimes the hardest to categorize of any on this site. They frequently start as one subject and wander off onto other subjects. For example, someone asks about how to fix a metal shaper physical problem. The message thread, which you would expect to find in the file "Metal Shaper Repair General" sometimes ends up better suited for the "Metal Shaping Tips" file if the real problem is bad technique, not a faulty shaper. Sometimes that better technique also involves metal shaper bits and/or toolholders. We have a file here for that called "metal Shaper Bits and Toolholders". But I cannot and will not put the thread in all files possible. The thread goes into the shaper file that is most appropriate (my choice) or causes me the least editing/typing and/or headache at the end of a long day. Just not enough room on my site for posting threads in multiple files. As mentioned on my home page, you will get the most information out of these files if you check through all of most likely ones for the problem at hand, if the file you try first does not have a full answer. It sure isn't a perfect system, but after a while you will gain the knack of scrolling/skimming files at high speed. If you have copied the files to your site, you can use your text editor or word processor to open all the shaper files at once, and do word searches across all open files at once. Yours can't do that? Get a free copy of NoteTab Light through the home page link. A very good tool. [I have no relationship with them except as a very pleased user of that free program.] NOTE TO FILE RE CUTTING GEARS: There are some good posts here about cutting gears with a shaper. There is also some technical stuff that you may skim through when needing to read just the practical stuff. Please read the file Gears General for additional information. If you got to this file directly from my HOME PAGE, return there by using your browser's back button. BUT if you came to this file as the result of a web search engine, see more than 70 additional files on my home page Machining and Metalworking at Home http://www.janellestudio.com/metal/ SAFETY WARNING BEWARE: DO NOT ASSUME that any subject matter or procedure or process is safe or correct or appropriate just because it was mentioned in a news/user group or was included in these files or on this site or on any other web site or was published in a magazine or book or video. Working with metals and machinery and chemicals and electrical equipment is inherently dangerous. Wear safety devices and clothing as appropriate. Remove watches, rings, and jewellery -- and secure or remove loose clothing -- before operating any machine. Read, understand and follow the latest operating procedures and safety instructions provided by the manufacturer of your machine or tool or product. If you do not have those most recent official instructions, acquire a copy through the manufacturer before operating or using their product. Where the company no longer exists, use the appropriate news or user group to locate an official copy. Be careful -- original instructions may not meet current safety standards. Updated safety information and operating instructions may also be available through a local club, a local professional in the trade, a local business, or an appropriate government agency. In every case, use your common sense before beginning or taking the next step; and do not proceed if you have any questions or doubts about any procedure, or the safety of any procedure. Follow all laws and codes, and employ certified or licenced professionals as required by those laws or codes. Hazardous tasks beyond your competence or expertise should also be contracted to professionals. Let's be really careful out there. (c) Copyright 2003 - 2008 Machining and Metalworking at Home The form of the collected work in this text file (including editing, additions, and notes) is copyrighted and this file is not to be reproduced by any means, including electronic, without written permission except for strictly personal use. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 21:55:05 -0000 From: "Art Volz" Subject: Re: Shaper surface finish --- In Metal_Shapersx~xxy..., "bclark64" wrote: > I wish I could get a surface like that on my porter cable. I don't > know if it's my bad attempt at grinding bits or the fact that there > seems to be only a very narrow band of table feeds that actually work. > When I try to make the table feed slower, it just stops feeding all > together. Coarse is about all it does. Since I don't have a manual for > it, I'm just guessing how it's adjusted. The smallest feed that you can get per ram stroke is one tooth of the ratchet gear wheel. Compute table traverse feed using number of teeth in this gear plus the threads per inch of your traversing feed screw. (How many teeth are on your ratchet gear/wheel? How many TPI does your traverse feed screw have?) Does your ratchet wheel pawl work...all of the time...or is it worn out? You can't do any better that one tooth--but you should be able to adjust your actuator links and eccentric wheel on your bull gear shaft to get ONLY one tooth per ram cycle. It's pretty simple to do and is straight forward. Leave a slight angle at the point of tightening of the two links so that if the table slams into either end of the saddle this "knee" will "break" to preclude something really breaking (Joe W's suggestion--and how he does it on his Logan-8). You basically have 2 adjustments to make: length of the locked together acutator links, and the radius set at the vee-slotted eccentric wheel. Also remember that your tool bit has to be cut so that it overlaps the cuts per each table feed...or your surface will look like its "threaded" like a gear rack. I don't know of any manual extant for the P-C-7 or, for that matter, the early Logan-7. I suggest that the manual closest to your P-C would be the one for the early models of the Logan-8. Contact Scott to see if he has this manual--I know that he has the one for the later Logan-8 which is also applicable to the subsequent Brodhead- Garrett J-Line-8's. (Scott, if you need a copy of the early Logan-8 manual, let me know and I'll have one sent to you for your distribution.) Art (Houston) ------- Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 19:51:21 -0600 From: "Mario L Vitale" Subject: Re: Re: Shaper surface finish bcclark, I had the same problem with table feed when I got my Lewis. I'm not sure what the feed mechanism is like on the Porter Cable (PC?) but my Lewis has a ratchet mechanism, which took a bit of fiddling with. If your PC has a ratchet, set it for a very low feed and hold your hand on it when it's supposed to advance just to see if it works. If so, take the ratchet mechanism apart, clean, lubricate and fiddle with the spring tension till you get it to work. Good luck, Mario ------- Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 20:46:01 -0000 From: "Art Volz" Subject: Re: Shaper surface finish Mario--That's a relief--a real load off of my brain. For a second I thought you were using that cursed "silver bullet" stuff--as the Fonz (sp?) would'ave said: "Aaahh, jus' sit on it!"-- Ortsia-Fecescitium 7734 (Church Latin pronunciation) with a wiper insert. (Reportedly, this is the same alloy used on the bottoms (have to look at mine upside down) of the Red Dragon's FU2 Fighter's Hell-4-Sure Anti-Styx missile. Still Tip-Top Secret so I don't 4 sure know.) Sure glad ya ain't using that stuff. Whenever I try to cut it, it's such a load on my personal machinery that it causes everything in my shop to have a brown-out. Nothing runs...and the glim doth dim. As for your Lewis' shaper cutting speed. Send me your computed RPM's obtainable at your bull gear shaft via belt flip-flopping on your pulleys--use pulley pitch diameters and not their outside diameters to compute. (I know that you know this Mario--just added it for our "reader"'s lesson-of-the-day.) The table I normally use is the one for Chicago brand die cast pullies as found on page 805 of Wholesale Tool's 2002 catalog. ( http://www.wttool.com ) For example, Chicago's 4-step #141 pulley has outsider diameters of 2", 2-1/2", 3- 1/2", and 4"; to compute RPM's the respective Pitch Diameters to use, however, are 1.75", 2.25", 3.25", and 3.75". That said, give me your obtainable RPMs and I'll send you a "Kustomized-by-Art" chart thingee- thingie that will allow you to determine Ram cutting stroke average velocity (with ends of the velocity ellipse-ie curve cut-off--they're the non-cutting portions of the curve used for lead-in and lead out) by simply going to the chart input RPM and reading Speed (in FPM) at the set stroke length which is a variable. Simple as pumpkin pie: "Olde Tyme Recipe Book: "First catch a pumpkin and then...." Now, if two UV emitter/phototransistor sensing modules (Radio Shack used to have them--don't know if they still do) were set at a known distance at the top of the column and a sheet metal interrupter was placed on the ram so that it triggered the sensing modules during the main portion of the cutting stroke when the velocity "flattens-out", and then input these "triggers" via parallel port into a 386 with a simple program written in speedy COMPILED PowerBASIC ( http://www.powerbasic.com ), you could get a constant velocity number printed to your B&W 640X480 (pixies) 14-inch diagonal VGA monitor. Could even get it to print the numbahs to screen in Italian...or in Roman numerals too as long as you don't need any zeroes. Would be just like eating peanuts with the pidgeons at the Plaza d'San Marco...if it ain't being flushed by moon-tides. Art (In Houston and thinking about nuking my ded buzzard (aka: turkey) in my new mid-sized George Forman rotisserie manana-banana. The kids think it's a TV and are planning on watching the Big Apple's Thanksgiving parade on it tomorrow morn. It took 'em a whole year to figure out that the microwave wasn't a TV...and that the dish washer wasn't a special wash machine for undies. We're a slow learner bunch, I guess...but, I can sure cook-up a helluva Italiano poached salmon fillet, enwraptured in foil, in my dishwasher autoclave. :-) ) ------- Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 21:50:59 -0500 From: "Dave Audette" Subject: Re: Re: Shaper surface finish I just went through this a few months ago with my 7" Logan which is identical to the PC. I had a couple of sheared pins to replace , the linkage needed a great deal of adjustment and the pawl assemble had to be reoriented. Once all that had been done it finally fed correctly. I keep the feed pretty fine and just (I can see Art cringing right now) crank up the speed a bit if I want to finish faster. I had to disassemble the whole thing to get everything right but it's really not a very complicated mechanism so tearing into it shouldn't cause any fear, it's all very straightforward. Dave Worcester, Mass www.broncosaurus.net ------- Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2002 02:14:48 -0000 From: "ptkeillor3" Subject: Re: Shaper surface finish Hi, guys. I just got done with a trial cut on some scrap on my 8" Logan this past Sunday. It looked good to me, but there was a very fine striation perpendicular to the stroke, not as pretty as yours, Mario. One thing I noticed was that the table feed screw has to have some resistance for the ratchet to work. Mine was floating in the backlash. It started feeding when I turned the feed screw by hand until it snugged up. Mine was also missing the flanged bushing at the link-to-ratchet bolt. I made one this evening from brass, and just installed it. It now adjusts from .002" feed (1 click) to .012" feed. There was too much slop before. I just got in some 1/4" bits from J&L, and will try grinding some this weekend, like the left and right hand roughing, and a shear type finishing. We'll see how it goes. Pete Keillor ------- Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2002 06:53:02 -0000 From: "Art Volz" Subject: Pete's Perpendicular Striations & FPM: Shaper surface finish > Hi, guys. I just got done with a trial cut on some scrap on my 8" > Logan this past Sunday. It looked good to me, but there was a very > fine striation perpendicular to the stroke, not as pretty as yours, > Mario. Pete--Noticing the perpendicular striations is an interesting observation. We like to think of our drive systems--straight geared and/or chain & sprocket--as having a smooth and relatively constant velocity but, they don't. The straight geared bull gears and the chain & sprocket bull wheels jerk between each tooth and each link. The Lewis is a straight geared type, the Logan is a chain drive. These jerks can be seen in the surface finish perpendicular to the ram stroke. To minimize these jerks, smooth running helical gears where often used as on the Shape-Rite-8 which had its final four gears in the train of helical tooth form. Hydraulic and direct screw drive rams were also noted for their smoothness. Mario's relatively slow surface speed of about 95 fpm (right Mario?), and the concurrent lessening of overal machine vibrations, propbably assisted in obtaining the smoothness of his cut surface as 300 fpm is a "normal" speed for HSS cutting of aluminum and its alloys. Art (Houston) ------- Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2002 06:32:08 +1100 From: "Terry Lane" Subject: Re: Re: Shaper surface finish Original Message From: "Art Volz" To: Sent: Wednesday, November 27, 2002 4:47 AM Subject: [Metal_Shapers] Re: Shaper surface finish > Mario-- > Took me a bit to make "cents" outta it...but...finally...it added up. > Eleven cents, right? > Almost a perfect mirror. Tell us more about your material, feed, > speed, and DOC...and how you prepared your tool bit. Art (Houston) Original Message From: Mario L Vitale: >>Art, I should have known that someone would ask for those details (and I should have known it would be you) Unfortunately I won't be much help. I almost added to my note that the roughing cuts were removing around .012/.015 and the finish pass was .005" but since that was about all I could quantify, I thought I'd avoid all the following "I don't know"s... The tool bit was very crudely ground , by eye, to clearance and rake angles that "looked good" and has a fairly large (.19"?) corner radius. I will add another photo of the tool bit. I should mention that I did give the tool a few swipes with a diamond lap just before the finish cut. The material is "offallium". Don't know what the alloy is, but is probably 7000 series aluminum(7075, or maybe even 7050). With regard to feeds and speeds, I just ran down and put an indicator on the table and its feeding at .008" per stroke (that doesn't hurt the finish!) but I don't know what the cutting speed is. I can make it slower or faster but I haven't a clue as to how to set the cutting speed to a specific 's.f.p.m.' or to measure it, other than with a stop watch and a ruler....Any suggestions? Mario << Mario - RPM of bull wheel x stroke in inches /2 /12 will give you a rough & ready FPM - close enough for our purposes any'ow. Tel ------- Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2002 10:43:58 -0500 From: "Dave Audette" Subject: Re: Re: Shaper surface finish It's not all that difficult to disassemble the ratchet mechanism and it's very straightforward once you get it apart. I just did the one on my Logan a few months back. Probably the biggest variable was the amount of preload on the pawl. I had initially adjusted everything so that there was very little drag on it but that didn't allow the pawl to grab, there has to be some resistance for it to work properly. The other problem I had was that the linkage was bending like an elbow, once I had it tight & straight it started to feed correctly. Tighten down a bit on the double nut arrangement on the left hand side of the table to add a little tension and see if that doesn't help out some. Dave Worcester, Mass www.broncosaurus.net ------- From: dkinzer2000 To: Metal_Shapersx~xxyahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, December 07, 2002 5:27 PM Subject: [Metal_Shapers] My first shaper project Although I had intended to disassemble, clean and rennovate my recently acquired Atlas shaper before beginning to use it, I ended up using it for an interesting project this weekend - cutting internal splines in a gear. Never having used a shaper before, this was quite a learning experience. I took some pictures of the setup that I used and the finished product. They can be viewed here: http://www.kinzers.com/don/MachineTools/internal_spline Don Kinzer Beaverton, OR ------- Date: Sun, 8 Dec 2002 10:51:03 -0600 From: "Ray Ethridge" Subject: Re: My first shaper project Good looking project, Don. Well done! Ray Ethridge ------- Date: Sun, 08 Dec 2002 05:45:30 -0000 From: "dkinzer2000 " Subject: Re: My first shaper project The gear catalog that I looked at didn't say anything about it being hardened. It listed "steel" and "cast iron" gears. I figured that the steel ones were non-hardened. Before I started work on it I checked it with a file just to be sure it wasn't hardened. It machined nicely. Here's a link to the PDF for Boston Gear's "change gears": http://www.bostongear.com/pdf/gears_catalog_sections/gears16-24.pdf Don ------- Date: Sat, 28 Dec 2002 10:09:03 +1300 From: Tom Subject: Re: tool for cutting tubing rib Ray Ethridge wrote: > I am not sure I am following what you need, can't you cut ribs out of 3" square tubing with a cutoff saw? It would seem like a shaper would not be the tool of choice there. > Original Message ----- > From: easygoing12101 > To: Metal_Shapersx~xxyahoogroups.com > Sent: Tuesday, December 24, 2002 6:57 PM > Subject: [Metal_Shapers] tool for cutting tubing rib > Anyone know how to make a tool holder to cut the rib out of a piece > of 3 square tubing. Or is their a secret to this, that I haven't > found yet. thanks I've got an idea that he wishes to remove the welding flash inside the tube. I've been waiting for him to come back with a length.. An internal keyway cutting bar would do it for short lengths. A couple of years ago, I removed the flash on a piece about 10' long by making a tool-carrying block that I winched through with a friend's 4 x 4 mounted winch. Tool has to be adjustable and set back in the block so there is support at the start of the cut. If cutting a long length this way, there needs to provision for the swarf to excape as it curls up. Tom ------- Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 10:19:54 -0000 From: "matt_isserstedt " Subject: Suppose I wanted to make a wrench I need to make some new box wrenches for a 3/4" square shaft. No problem, I've got a shaper to clean out the internal square hole! I'd like to impart a slight taper to the handle of the wrench, (all made from a piece of 1/2" or 1" thick flat steel...haven't decided on the "beef" factor yet), about 10" long. My question deals with setup...Either I can set the scribed lines for the tapers level with the top edge of the vise, and take a large number of small 1" or so strokes, or try to set up the part parallel to the stroke and make just a few long light cuts. For stiffness reasons it seems like the first setup would be better but sure would take a longer time to complete. In addition, I think I've picked up that internal work with a boring bar type setup requires the clapper to be fixed. My Atlas had some nice work done to it which had a spring that could be engaged to provide some load to force the clapper home. My question is: What is the correct way to secure this...solid as in with a specialized clamp, or is something compliant like a giant rubber band going to be OK? Any good advice appreciated on setup? TIA Matt [Atlanta] ------- Date: Sun, 02 Mar 2003 14:52:14 -0000 From: "xtrucker_1999 " Subject: cylinder heads what do you think about using a shaper to surface cylinder heads? seems like i could get a better finish than i could get on the bridgeport. dt ------- Date: Sun, 2 Mar 2003 14:50:49 -0500 (EST) From: Bill Slugg Subject: Shaping a Cylinder Head I have done a three cylinder aluminum head. The finish was good. Main difficulty was in finding places to clamp it down. Beware of small bosses on the head that could break off if too much clamping force is used. I learned the hard way. Bill Slugg Albany, GA ------- Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2003 04:14:18 -0000 From: "dreilanderecht" Subject: basic shaper operations Hi All: Just to put my money where my mouth is, I have started a directory called "Basic Shaper Operations" and posted a file in it called "Squaring a Block". This is a text only file describing the basic operation of squaring up an approximately square block using a shaper and its vice. It has no illustrations. This gives the idea of the sort of thing we could usefully have here for the guidance of learners. Feel free to suggest improvements. You might like to write your own outline of some technique, maybe cutting keyways, or dovetails, or how you held some tricky item. Diagrams would be helpful too, except that I note that we seem to be using a large proportion of the space available...our honoured host may have to make some decisions some time about what is valuable, or we might have to find another place to host some things and provide links to them. With a bit of input, this could be a useful beginners guide. What do you think? regards John ------- Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2003 07:36:23 -0000 From: "dreilanderecht" Subject: Re: basic shaper operations Ok, so now I have added another one with a description of a technique that can help with inside keyways. It really does cry out for a diagram, so I hope the text only description is enough to help you see how it works. Provided the blade of the tool is set vertical, then the bobbin ensures that the keyway is radial and properly placed. The depth is another problem! But exact keyway depth is not usually a great problem. ------- Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2003 21:11:06 -0400 From: "Jeff Benetti" Subject: RE: Re: basic shaper operations I really like the sound of this message thread, I am still a few months from having a working shaper at my disposal. Being a toolmaker by trade I should be able to figure out most setups ( I hope ! ). For me the big issues would be how to 'correctly' treat (operate) the machine. For example the table support thingy. What is the correct procedure for adjusting this, do you just let it slide down under it's own weight and then locked in place? Or should it be slightly clear (.001"-.002"), or should there be preload. I am assuming that the table should be raised before adjusting and not lowered ( take out backlash ). Also should it always be used or just for roughing cuts or just for heavy pieces. When I tilt the table ( assuming it isn't seized solid :-) ) the table support on my machine would be at an angle, I am assuming I would not use it in this instance. Also the stroke ??? Does a good shaper operator capitalize on the fact that the ram is very much accelerating at the start of the cut. Do you try and start the cut while you are ramping up to cutting speed or do you want the cutter up to speed before it makes contact? These are shaper specific questions. Often setups are job specific and based very much on what you have on hand at the time. Lots more questions where these came from. Jeff ------- Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2003 07:12:54 -0000 From: "dreilanderecht" Subject: Re: basic shaper operations Well, the technique that I use is to set the table to the height I want, then free the support, then wind the height down against it so that there will be no slack in the support. I lock the vertical adjustment gib on the machines that provide for this afterwards. Now, my justification for this is only theoretical, so I am prepared to listen to other ideas, and will at least argue that this works for me... My thinking is that so long as the machine is in good condition, then there should be very little movement in the horizontal slides. (Other than the way they are meant to move) On the other hand, any metal structure will flex under load...Youngs modulous and all that. So even assumming that the slides are perfect, the end of the table would tend to spring down a little under load. But by making sure that the support is ready to take load and even lightly preloaded, this should prevent, or rather greatly reduce, any springing down. On the other hand, if the slides have too much clearance, then my approach might not be the best. One could imagine that the table is drooping below horizontal before the support is lowered, and then being pressed above horizontal when the support is lowered and the clearance taken up. I would suggest that if a dial gauge test shows that this is happening, then the machine needs some work. Once the support is set, I leave it there for all cuts. The table on my Alba 1A can tilt, and the end of the support is rounded so that it could still be used in this condition. However, one can see that the forces might tend to make the support bend sideways. Some of the universal table shapers have a much better arrangement than this, and if I foresaw using it a lot I might well try to make a similar arrangement. You want a reasonable clearance at the start of the cut, mainly to allow time for the clapper box to drop back at the end of the return stoke. I like to allow about half an inch on the seven inch shaper, a little more when possible on the bigger ones. At the other end, you really only need enough to ensure that the tool always clears the cut, quarter of an inch is plenty. I will tolerate less if the job only just fits the machine, but that may mean setting the stoke rate lower. If the tool is not dropping back in time, you will hear it and will see that the finish looks not so good along that edge. They can bounce too, hence the spring arrangement on some machines. Because of the intermittent cut on a shaper, you really want the tool cutting as much of the time as possible. So it is a bit naughty to do a one inch job with the stroke still set to 6 inches or so. Not that it will necessarily do any harm, but it means that you will have to run the shaper at the lower speed that the longer stroke demands. You could have the same tool cutting speed with a shorter stroke and a higher stroke rate, and therefore get the job done quicker. It is very true that setups are very specific, often coming down to finding an odd shaped piece of scrap in the junkbox that just suits the need. That doesn't mean that they are of no interest to others, even if not directly applicable. Of course, it is different on the Ammco with its drilled table to the other machines with slotted tables...the holes are not always ideally positioned, and although there are already two extra for the vice, I'm not going to make any more. One thing I will mention is that a selection of flat bar with holes drilled, ready to bolt across the front of the table to make a fixed stop of a suitable height is very handy. Just put in the number of bars that gives you a stop sufficiently lower than the job. This is a reassuring thing to have with any job where you are limited in the number of places that you can hold it down, eg the stop will stop it sliding forwards, so there is less demanded of the other studs or screws. Now if others would contribute their ideas, we could then collate them together and put this with the other files... regards John ------- Date: Fri, 04 Apr 2003 09:02:20 -0000 From: "dreilanderecht" Subject: Re: Cutting circular T slot --- In Metal_Shapersx~xxyahoogroups.com, "Art Volz" wrote: > Why not tell us how you turned the T-slot in the swivel base. But that is a lathe job, not a shaper one! It takes three stages, first trepan out a slot the right width and depth. This takes a tool like a parting tool but with suitable side releif to clear the curve of the slot. Like a parting tool it can be a bit inclined to chatter too, but with slow back gear and patience it will do the job. Next you need left and right T slot tools. These are a piece of tool steel brazed onto a mild steel shank. (Keysteel is good for these) The shak and toolbit must be able to fit into the slot, so it follows that the shank will be half the slot, and the tool bit also half. Therefore the T arm will be able to be half the slot width deep. My tools are the full width of the desired slot, about 3/16 IIRC, and they cut like going thorough butter on this job...I had been expecting it to be tricky but it was beautiful. The material was continuous cast iron bar. It took longer to make the cutters than to do the rest. It is sometimes surprising when a job you have been fearing a little turns out to be quite manageable. To get back "on topic" for the list, the same technique is used when cutting T slots in the shaper, except of course the initial slot cutter does not need such side releif since it is cutting straight. I haven't cut any slots for tables etc but did test the pair of T slot cutters on a stray piece of cast iron before doing the round one. This is one of the few jobs where the clapper box should be locked, since if the tool swings it will foul the top of the T arm. Obviously for professional work it would be done with a slot drill followed by a suitable T slot cutter, and I even have the means to do that now, but didn't back then. But for us cheapskate amateurs there is a certain attraction to doing it with about US$1 worth of tool steel, even if we do have to put more time in. Well, nobody is making me fill in a time sheet! Now that you remind me, I think I have seen that Ammco vice drawing before, anyway I will grab the drawing and have a look, since the vice the Ammco has now does not have its swivel base and is really a bit high even without it. But it would go well on my mill drill! regards John ------- Date: Sun, 06 Apr 2003 09:48:08 -0000 From: "dreilanderecht" Subject: Pictures In Line with Art's suggestion I have posted the pictures, including the extra ones that I scanned tonight, to http://www.metalworking.com/dropbox I hope the webmaster there does not mind us co-opting their facility! Unless any of you specificly ask, I won't send them out individually. Anyway, they will give you some idea of the sorts of things that are possible with a shaper, and will aslo show you that my workshop is not always the worlds tidiest place. The green cast shows that I have flourescent lights in there... regards John ------- Date: Tue, 08 Apr 2003 20:46:49 -0000 From: "lkasdorf" Subject: Atlas shaper X travel not enough I was attempting to clean up the end of a 5" long piece of 5/8" square steel bar with my new shaper. I figured I'd move the vise over to the right side of the block, and mount the bar so that it was vertically oriented. I did this. Then, I tried to rack the box over to the left such that the work was under the cutter. I ran out of travel! It seems to me that there is not a lot of utility in mounting the vise on the right side, if you can't get the work under the cutter. I spose the thing to do would be to directly clamp the work to the table, and carefully insure that it is square. On this machine, would the "proper" method be to put the vise on top, mount the work so that it extends out to the right, and use a cutter that tilts into the work? Then advance the cut manually with the top crank? It seems that turning the lantern at 90 deg so hits the end of the bar would put unpleasant stresses on the clapper. Am I wrong? ------- Date: Wed, 09 Apr 2003 00:20:45 -0000 From: "dreilanderecht" Subject: Re: Atlas shaper X travel not enough This is one reason why low vices are favoured for shapers. But also some machines don't really provide as much travel on the cross slide as would really be desirable. The Alba 1A is one that could use a wider cross slide. The trouble is, you want a wide table, but if the table is wider you get less available travel at the end. Like everything, there has to be a compromise. Some machines permit you to take the table off and bolt a job straight. For your particular job, mounting it directly on the side would be a good approach. You can use a square to make sure it is vertical, and provided the table is square it should give a square end Ok. So one accessory that you really want to arrange is a set of T nuts and clamp dogs, with a range of screws and studs to suit. Some lengths of the right size of studding are handy too, you can cut the exact length needed. After a while you have a collection of short lengths of slightly tatty studding.... Some machines provide you with a V groove that is handy for mounting round bar on the side like this, you can also use it with square bar if you don't mind cutting it with diagonal strokes. You can use the vice to mount the bar horizontally on top as you describe, then take a facing cut down the end using the downfeed and a knife tool. It is sometimes hard to be sure if the downfeed is really set up vertical, and it is fiddly checking this with a dial gauge and square. So setting on the side of the table would be better for a job you want as accurate as possible. When you are doing a vertical facing cut you need to angle the clapper box so that the top is further away from the cut, so that as it swings it give clearance. I don't think it is usual to turn the post to bring the tool right out to one side, and that would tend to use up more of the lacking side travel anyway regards John ------- Date: Wed, 09 Apr 2003 18:15:11 -0000 From: "al_messer" Subject: Re: do you ever lube the cutter when shaping? It depends upon the task at hand. A lot of my "shaping" is roughing stuff I have scrounged down to sizes and shapes for whatever project is on-going. When I'm roughing Hot Rolled or anything with a lot of rust on it, I usually use a light cutting fluid such as WD-40, or sometimes, 10w-30 motor oil. It seems to give a better finish and keeps the tool bit sharper longer. When milling, I usually do it dry and keep the chips blown out of the way of the cutter as small amounts of cutting fluid seem to cause the chips to gum up the works and leave a rough finish to the cut. ------- Date: Wed, 09 Apr 2003 19:58:28 -0000 From: "Art Volz" Subject: Re: do you ever lube the cutter when shaping? Lynn-- Al is right. [NOTE TO FILE: SEE ART'S BOOK RECOMMENDATIONS AND EXCELLENT COMMENTS IN FULL IN THE Metal Publications TEXT FILE.] [SNIP] Nothing specifically on shapers/planers (older Krar editions had this info--they are featured in my 3rd Edition), but a shaper, if you look at it from a different point of view, is really a "flat cutting lathe" --generally what is true for a lathe is applicable, generically, to a shaper/planer, but you've got to be able to "read between the lines"...to "see" outside of your box. Enjoy! Art (Houston) ------- Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 01:26:52 -0000 From: "dreilanderecht" Subject: Re: do you ever lube the cutter when shaping? I generally use soluble oil when doing anything reasonably heavy in steel, especially tougher steel like gauge plate. I don't use anything with cast iron, brass, or bronze. I possibly would if I found myself shaping copper, I believe milk is supposed to be good for this! Kerosene, as it is called in the USA, or paraffin as the brits call it, is just the thing for aluminium/aluminum. I don't have any fancy arrangements, usually just a squeeze bottle of diluted soluble oil. I have also been known to give the job a squirt of the same oil that I lubricate the machines with, a nonadditive lubricating oil intended for use with rotary pumps etc. It does pay to clean up afterwards, as soluble oil will stain the table where it is trapped in a gap, like between the vice and table. Not that it does any harm but it is unsightly. One advantage with shapers is that the cutting oil will stay where it is needed quite well, unlike a lathe where it is flung all over the operator and the wall. I wouldn't assume that just because the cut is intermittent, the tip doesn't get hot. I suspect that the small volume of metal right at the cutting edge can get hot pretty quickly, and of course if it reaches the transition temperature of the material it will go soft. It is noticeable if you experiment a bit that there is not a lot of difference between the maximum cutting speed that will give good life, and the speed where the tip fails quite suddenly. The chips on my machines quite often are coming off smoking, so things do get hot down in that microscopic region by the edge. If you look at the pics I posted the other day you will see evidence of soluble oil being used. regards John ------- Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 04:05:50 -0000 From: "lkasdorf" Subject: Re: do you ever lube the cutter when shaping? Funny thing- I have been putzing around with drill bits and allen wrenches for cutters while waiting for the order I placed for tool steel blanks to arrive. I'm out in the shop tonight lubing the thing up, which has suddenly gotten stiff on me. While manually running the ram through its stroke, I come across an old 1/4" tool steel cutter laying in the chip tray!! Overjoyed, (funny how I can get overjoyed at the discovery of a scrap of metal), I clean it up and touch up the edge. I mounted it directly into the lantern, with a spacer to take up the slack. I installed a chunk of mild steel in the vise and as soon as it started cutting, I saw how these machines are supposed to work! I put some motor oil on the steel, and let it cruise along, taking very small bites. The result was just beautiful. I trued up a block of aluminum. Again, lovely results. So, I finally have this thing usable. I did notice when cutting the steel, which had a pool of oil on the surface, little smoke trails following the chips, even though I'm running at the lowest speed. So, I'm in business now. Thanks, all. Lynn Kasdorf ------- Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 02:35:58 -0000 From: "lkasdorf" Subject: what is source of poor surfacing? I figured I'd give my Atlas 7B a bit of a challenge, to see how useful these machines are. I took a 6" section of 4" angle iron and clamped it in the vise. I decided that I wanted to try to make an angle plate by first surfacing on side, then clamping that side to the vertical table and surfacing the other side. I did a roughing cut across the stock, then came back with a shallow finishing cut. When it got near the right edge of the piece, it developed this pattern of uneveness. It looks like the cutter digs in at the start, then rises up for 1/2" then eases back down into the work for the rest of the stroke. This litte pattern only happens on the rightmost 1" or so. I was seeing this sort of thing before, so I took off the clapper, cleaned well. I cleaned and honed the taper pin. I carefully honed the back side of the clapper to remove some little bumps, burrs. reassembled and relubed. The clapper has absolutely no side play and swings up and back freely, with a satisfying thwack. what other sources of uneven cuts are there? I remember seeing some- thing like this in a piece of aluminum when I first got the machine. I wonder if a section of the table travel is somehow screwed up? ------- Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2003 23:27:47 -0500 From: Doug Chartier Subject: Re: what is source of poor surfacing? A Guess: Deflection of the work piece. If you are holding the angle by one of the legs, the further you get away from the vise the more unsupported the work area. Try putting some support under the extended leg - a small machine jack, some blocks - something that will prevent that leg from being pushed down. A hold down probably will not be necessary, but solid support underneath will be. If you are holding the entire work area and not just one of the legs, check the work piece for squareness. It may be that the edge that is giving you the problems is slightly out of alignment with the vise face. Doug ------- Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 04:51:24 -0000 From: "dreilanderecht" Subject: Re: what is source of poor surfacing? My Guess is that Doug is probably right here, the usual cause of this sort of patterning is deflection somewhere, as indeed you must have suspected, since checking out the clapper box is a good start. Sometimes a slightly harder spot such as a chilled area in a casting, or a slag inclusion in rolled stock can set this sort of thing off, and sometimes you can actually see a series of waves following the edge that is causing the deflection. The same sort of thing can happen in lathes, especially when there is an interrupted cut. I'm not sure that angle iron is ideal for holding in the vice like this, since the faces are not usually actually parallel, eg the arms of the angle are usually tapered. If you have sufficient side travel available, it might pay to make some of the holes you will want in the angle plate and then bolt it to the side of the table. Provided the table is true, that should give you a good right angle plus better support, plus your cut is in the long direction. Of course, as discussed recently you may not be able to get enough cut with the job to one side of the table, even with a tool arranged to be out to the side in the needed direction. regards John ------- Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 12:14:21 +0000 From: mariol.vitalex~xxatt.net Subject: Re: what is source of poor surfacing? I would agree with Doug and John... The freestanding leg needs to be supported, and inconsistancies in the material could initiate the wavy condition. If supporting the horizontal leg does not help the situation, I'm wondering if there could be some other source of "slop". You might want to check to make sure the gibs on the ram are adjusted properly. With the ram extended out to about where the cut starts, put an indicator on the top side and pry upward (CAREFULLY with a wooden pry bar) on the front end of the ram. To be honest, I don't know how much movement you should expect, but with the ram extended only a small part of its stroke, it shouldn't be very much. Let us know how you make out. Mario ------- Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 15:09:06 -0500 From: Doug Chartier Subject: Re: Re: what is source of poor surfacing? If the work piece is a piece of 4x6 angle - commercial structural steal - that stuff may have all sorts of hard spots and soft spots. If it has been welded that changes it even more - welded and cooled with water, forget it. If it's been cut with a torch and cooled with water, it will tear up cutting tools. It's kind of the dregs of available steel stuff. It's great for what it was made for - holding up buildings, bridges, making heavy duty trailer hitches, welding etc, but for machining it isn't very good. I made an angle plate from a piece of the same stuff. 4x6 by a half inch thick. It was a real bear to work with, beautiful finish for an inch or so then the cutter (milling cutter) would dig in and leave all sorts of tracks. The face mill (5 carbide inserts) would spin nicely, leave a nice finish, and then hit a hard spot. The cut depth would change, the cutters would clatter, and things would go south. I finally got an angle plate with slots, but it couldn't be used for anything that needed great accuracy, and I probably could have bought a good one for the cost of the inserts I broke. Besides all that, a cast iron plate is probably more rigid too. Doug in Houston ------- Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 21:06:31 -0000 From: "dreilanderecht" Subject: Re: what is source of poor surfacing? The hard spots in a piece of rolled steel can contain forms of carbide. This means that they can be as hard as a carbide cutter, and certainly can be harder than ordinary HSS. So any small machine tool is going to have trouble. Grinding would actually be the way to get a good finish on this sort of stuff. The same applies to chilled spots on castings, and I once had a problem turning a crankshaft for a Stuart Double Ten. The blank as supplied by Stuart was made by welding two of the single throw blanks for a 10 V together end to end...Not sure what welding technique they used, but on mine it produced a hard area that I was simply unable to turn to a good finish. This included using carbide tooling, which went blunt very quickly. Of course, the weld was right in the middle of where the centre main bearing was to be, so a good finish was vital. Again, a toolpost grinder would have done the job, but I didn't have one, so instead I made a new crankshaft from solid, from a piece of free cutting mild steel. It started at around three pounds and finished at three ounces, since I started with round stock, made it square for ease of marking out and then used the shaper to carve away as much as possible, so that I ended up with a square crankshaft. Then used a little vertical milling attachment on the lathe to rough out between centres, and then turned it in the lathe to finish. Overall, you should be able to work to quite good accuracy even with a relatively small shaper. Maybe not to quite the standard acheivable with a good big horizontal mill, but I can make parallels that are parallel as far as I can tell with an ordinary micrometer, eg well under a thou difference over a six inch length. regards John ------- Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2003 02:33:56 -0000 From: "al_messer" Subject: Re: what is source of poor surfacing? I would say that it is caused by some sort of harmonic vibration. I've had it as well, Try changing the speed of the stroke or the rate of feed or depth of cut. I suppose it's like chatter in a lathe or milling machine. Al Messer ------- Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 20:09:18 -0400 From: "Quale, Robert" Subject: Surface finish I do a lot of work on cold roll. My surface finish is rough. How can I tell if I'm getting the best finish possible. How smooth should it be? Any help would be great! Bob ------- Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 21:30:13 -0500 From: jrw Subject: Re: Surface finish Bob: What type of tool bits are you using? HSS or Carbide? Either one will require a sharp cutting edge for the CRS and work better with a fair amount of top rake so the material being removed is sheared off and not plowed off. The carbide insert tools have a well defined window of operation to make a good cut. Check the insert vendors for the data. A good sulphurized/chlorinated cutting oil helps. CRS is not known for easy machining. If you want or require very good surfaces move to 'leaded' steels. JRW ------- Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 02:33:35 -0000 From: "al_messer" Subject: Re: Surface finish Do you use he same tool bit for roughing and finishing? A tool bit with a bit wider cutting edge used on the finishing cut with a good dose of cutting oil usually works well for me. Al Messer ------- Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 00:40:36 -0400 From: "Quale, Robert" Subject: RE: Surface finish What type of leaded steel do you suggest? also when you say you use a lot of rake is it back rake or side rake? and how much? I make my own cutters and use T-15. I have been very happy with T-15 on my lathe and mill. Now if I can get good results with cold roll I'll be a happy guy. Bob ------- Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 08:57:15 -0500 From: jrw Subject: Re: Surface finish Bob: One of the many steels with lead added is by Ryerson. There is a cold drawn screw stock , Ledloy 300, an alloy material called Rycut 41L40. They contain 0.15 to 0.35 % lead. In recent years there has been a push to remove lead from any product and availability may be a problem. I was referring to the top rake on the tool bit and the large radius on the nose, as mentioned by others, can be helpful. The tool must be sharp. JRW ------- Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 18:45:06 EDT From: n8as1x~xxaol.com Subject: Re: Surface finish older armstrong /williams holders had 12 to 20 deg. back rake built in .....the more side rake u use ,the less back rake needed...can put so much side rake on ,the carriage will self feed!...try 16 deg.back & 10 deg.side,more side if needed.......if u have horizontal tool holders, u can use continually deepening angling chip breaker ground in just behind cutting edge to produce both rakes best wishes docn8as ------- Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 00:42:23 +0000 From: mariol.vitalex~xxatt.net Subject: Re: Surface finish n8: I'm sure, if I saw it, I would understand what you mean, but from your description..."continually deepenging angling chip breaker"... I'm not sure what you mean. Got any pictures? mario ------- Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 00:42:26 EDT From: n8as1x~xxaol.com Subject: Re: Surface finish yeah , it is difficult w/out a pic & i am too ignorant to know how to post them........if we have to, anSSAE will get u some sketches........lets try again......for illustration only ,since we are concerned w/ NON carbide bits,lets take the rt hand brazed carbide "a " pattern bit...(knife bit, 0 lead)..if u grind a groove from left to right directly behind the front cutting edge ,leaving no land, but the front edge of groove being the cutting edge ,u will then have back rake ,amount depending on depth/width of groove......now if groove gets deeper,the further it goes to the right, u will have SIDE rake..since u are cutting to left. it helps to have someone grind facing, corner , turning ,& shovel nose bits to copy from best wishes docn8as ------- Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 04:01:06 -0000 From: "lkasdorf" Subject: what are main sources of chatter? On my Atlas 7B, I'm having a hard time getting chatter-free cuts, especially in steel. What kind of steel? I dunno- scrap from the steel fabricators. The problem is NOT a hard spot in the material. What happens is I am getting chatter in my cuts sometimes. I get a chatter pattern on one end of a piece, and not on the other, then flip the piece end for end and repeat the cut, and the chatter pattern is now created at the smooth end. It seems to be a looseness somewhere in the machine. On a 6" cut, it is chattery toward the start of the cut, then it settles down. I'm using HSS 1/4" blanks. For roughing, I grind it to a vee (about 90 degee, I'd guess), then slightly flatten the tip of the vee. The grind angle is something like 5 degrees. I have cleaned my clapper and it has now the perfect feel, I think. Zero play, but freely falls back. I tightened gibs for the Y axis on the clapper head. I tightened the ram gibs on the left side of the ram. Cutting oil, or no, it doesn't seem to matter. I even get chatter on aluminum sometimes. Do I need to carefully grind my cutter like the various diagrams I've seen? What other sources of chatter are there? This thing is really starting to cheese me off. Ideas? ------- Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 06:45:29 -0000 From: "dreilanderecht" Subject: Re: what are main sources of chatter? There could be lots of reasons, you probably won't know for sure until you cure it. So I am not going to be dogmatic... When you say you are using quarter inch toolsteel blanks, does this mean that you are putting the toolsteel in the toolpost with enough extension to reach out past the clapper box? That usually means quite a long extension. Also the cutting load is on the front edge. If you imagine the toolsteel blank bending under the cutting load, this is going to make the cut deeper. You can reduce this tendency by making a tool from a big lump of mild steel bar with a small piece of toolsteel brazed to the end. The piece can be brazed into a hole set towards the back of the bar, which can even be machined with an offset so that the edge of the tool ends up level with or even behind the surface of the clapper box. This means that any deflection under load will not be tending to take the tool deeper. The same thing is achieved by using good beefy tool holders, as well as them permitting the use of small pieces of toolsteel. Another thing you don't mention is checking the cross slide gibs. My Ammco doesn't have locknuts on these, so they can work loose. Any play anywhere can potentially translate into chatter, not always in a manner that you would expect. The start of a cut is always a likely place for chatter effects to show up since there will be a sudden change in loading as the cut starts. Are you making sure that the table stay does not have any free travel? I generally set the table to height, set the stay down, and then crank the height down to ensure the stay is slightly loaded. This might not be the ideal thing to do if the cross slide had play, but then, if it did the correct thing to do would be to fix that problem too. With the Ammco and the big Alba, I always lock the vertical gib after adjusting...for some reason I don't seem to do this on the smaller Alba. Hmmm, must look at it and see if I can figure out why. Finally, too wide a cutting edge for the particular machine will tend to chatter. This is more likely to be a problem with slotting cutters. (Keyway cutters) Same problem as parting off in small lathes, eg if the tool is too wide it overloads the machine and causes chattter, and if it is too narrow it is not stable in the sideways direction and will waver or break, especially if it is made too long to get a deep slot. But that is not likely to be your problem, unless you have a flat on the end of the tool that is much too wide. A little flat is good, but it does not need to be more than just a little wider than the amount you are feeding per stroke. Anyway, that will give you a little more to be going on with! Let us know how you get on regards John ------- Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 12:20:44 +0000 From: mariol.vitalex~xxatt.net Subject: Re: what are main sources of chatter? You didn't mention how you were holding the material, but if in a vise, you might check to see that the vice jaws are parallel. Clamp up the work in the vice, then, with a solid metallic object (like the blunt end of a center punch) tap the work moving from one end to the other and listen for a change in pitch. Mario ------- Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 14:43:43 -0000 From: "lkasdorf" Subject: Re: what are main sources of chatter? I forgot to mention how I am holding the tool. I simply mount the cutter directly in the lantern, at the rear. I have a tool holder that I stick in the slot that presses against the tool blank and takes up the space (the tightening bolt is too short to secure a 1/4" blank by itself). I use the minimal amount of extension possible on the bit. And the cutting surface is back as far as possible- in fact farther than if I were using a tool holder. BTW, I am not using the tool holder I have because it holds the tool at an angle, rather than perpendicular to the work. I've not checked the play in the cross slide gibs. I agree that if there is slop there, it would produce chatter. I do like the idea of lowering the table slightly after tightening the support foot. I'll try that- it should add some rigidity. I am using the original vise, and the jaws seem quite parallel and free of slop. I assume that these Atlas shapers are capable of doing good work in mild steel??? Lynn Kasdorf ------- Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 20:09:41 -0000 From: "dreilanderecht" Subject: Re: what are main sources of chatter? I have used tools held in the holder directly like that, but usually larger blanks. Could be worth going up to 3/8 square if you have a bit. It is true that a toolholder will move the cutting edge furher forward, but the extra stiffness seems to more than make up for this. Of course, the lathe ones with the built in rake are even worse from this point of view, although I use some with my Alba 1a with good results. You have to sharpen the bit so as to take off most of the extra rake. I don't know what you have in the wau of heating equipment, but you can braze an HSS bit into a bar of mild steel with a fairly small propane torch, you don't need oxy acetylene. When I say braze, silver solder will be better with the lower temperature, ezyflo for instance. The heat will not temper the HSS. A broken centre drill makes a good toolbit. The mild steel bar should be as big as will reasonably fit the toolpost. I can't speak from personal experience about the Atlas, but shapers in general are capable of an excellent surface finish, even on tricky materials. I just made some main bearings for my launch engine from some excellent but very tough bronze. All the shaper work gave me a lovely finish, but when it came to line boring them I simply could not consistently get a good finish. In the end, I bored them oversize and lined them with whitemetal. ------- Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 21:19:40 -0000 From: "mattinker" Subject: keyways I am an absolute beginer as far as shapers are concerned. Eagerly awaiting the arrivail of my Elliot 10M that I bought last week. I have read everything that I could find on the web and I think I have a pretty good idea about beginning safely. I want to find out how to make keyways on shafts, do you have to drill oversize holes at the end of the keyway to allow the tool to drop in and on the other end of the stroke cut the shaveing and release the tool? Thanks, Matthew ------- Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 23:06:25 -0000 From: "dreilanderecht" Subject: Re: keyways Yes, it is vital to provide a hole at the end of a keyway. This does not need to be much bigger than the width of the keyway, and just a little deeper. If you don't have one the chip will pack at the end and you will break the tool. Even with one, you must set the stroke very carefully, it should just reach the middle of the hole, and you should be careful that you don't let chip build up in there. Slot tools, like parting tools, love to chatter. My experience is that you want very little or no top rake, and the tool does not want to be too wide for the machine. For a 10M, 1/8' wide should certainly be Ok, you might be able to go up to 3/16' or so. The 10M is a good machine, it is the later, developed version of the Alba 1a which is one of the machines I have. Big enough to do some real work. My general advice would be to start out using the slower speeds and only go faster once you are happy with the way things are going. Pull the machine over by hand (or use a creep speed on a big machine) to ensure that everything clears at all positions. Don't ever be tempted to brush the chips away by hand while the machine is going, use a stiff brush. Anyway, I am sure we all wish you many hours of pleasure with your new toy! regards John ------- Date: Tue, 03 Jun 2003 21:25:05 -0000 From: "dreilanderecht" Subject: Re: square holes [NOTE TO FILE: Earlier discussion of making square holes with a shaper all had non-shaper answers and those messages can be found in the "Broaching" text file.] For a small square hole it is probably not worth the trouble of setting the machine up when you can do the job quite quickly with a file. For a larger hole, it would become worthwhile. The problem is that you have to use a tool that will reach forward through the hole. This will have to either be something fancy with a cutting edge and releif on each corner, or else you will have to plan on doing half the hole with the tool one way up, and then inverting it for the other half. While doing the bottom half, you can let the clapper swing but if you are cutting on the top of the hole you would have to lock it. (Or invert the job) Then there is the problem that you can't see what is happening very well, since the tool is entering the job on the far side. The machine and the tool holder itself will tend to obscure the view. I would give it a try for a square hole that was say over an inch or so. But for a smaller one, I think the file and chisel has a lot to be said for it. I have done a curved hole, the slot for a steam engine expansion link. (Stevensons link motion) This is about five inches long, about 3/8 wide, and the radius is about 7.5 inches. The radius was determined by a special pivoted table added to the top with a hinge, and guided by an angled bar across the vertical slideways on the shaper body. The tool was a piece of round tool steel just long enough to go through the hole. The ends of the slot were to be rounded, not square. It was cut in gauge plate, two pieces about 3/8 thick, and as mentioned above, the clapper was only locked for the inverted cut on the top of the slot. I've also done keyways, and there is a description in the files area of a good approach for this. Back on the square holes, there is also a technique that uses a special drill bit that is sort of triangular, guided by a hardened plate with a square hole in it. The drill bit has to be able to move relative to the axis of the machine, ther is some kind of arrangement to acccomodate this. I haven't tride this, but ther was someone in our club talking about this the other day. I think you drill a round hole first. That method would of course lend itself to a blind hole, which the shaper wouldn't. I also have a device that will do a square hole in wood, effectively a square chisel that attaches to the quill and has a normal bit down the centre. The sharp corners force the wood into the normal bit which carries it away. regards John ------- Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2003 14:27:49 -0000 From: "tew138" Subject: Depth of Cut and Tightness of Gibs Hi Everyone: I'm making a bracket out of Aluminum and have some beginner questions on the operation of my early Atlas shaper. For roughing what depth of cut is reasonable for a bench-top machine? I have the belt set on the 2nd fastest speed (~75 fpm?) and I'm advancing the toolpost about .015/stroke. Then I read in the one of the tutorials that .015 is a finishing cut. I've tried advancing .030 but the machine started making some more noise. Since this shaper is over 50 years old I didn't want to push it too much. I saw the file Art posted and those depth of cuts must be for REAL shaper. Also how tight should the gibs on the tool post slide be? It seems like it would be too loose if I could grab the tool post and slide it up and down easily. I guess I was thinking it should be tight enough so the tool post does not slide down by its own weight (taking up the backlash). I can see why on the later models Atlas added a 4th gib screw. With 3 it seems like it is difficult get consistant tightness as you advance the tool post (at least on a worn machine). Thanks, Tom ------- Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2003 16:35:38 EDT From: n8as1x~xxaol.com Subject: Re: Depth of Cut and Tightness of Gibs > For roughing what depth of cut is reasonable for a bench-top > machine? I have the belt set on the 2nd fa my atlas loafs along in steel w/ a .050 cut,.005 feed ...carefully set up, it will make a decent rough cut of .100, have not tried any heavier, have not cut any alum. but on my lathes, i cut at 2-3x steel, sometimes more best wishes docn8as ------- Date: Sun, 22 Jun 2003 11:24:59 -0000 From: "Joe Guidry" Subject: Re: Generating Gears with a Shaper In Metal_Shapersx~xxyahoogroups.com, "jake101252" wrote: > Has anyone made an involute gear generator for use on a shaper? If > so, I have a couple of questions regarding this. Thanks Jake, look in the photo section, under Joe G. or under gear, there are some pic's of a gear that I cut on my shaper for an Atlas lathe, Joe. ------- Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2003 12:20:04 EDT From: anthrhodesx~xxaol.com Subject: Re: Generating Gears with a Shaper Joe: While your gear cutting efforts on the shaper using a form cutter are well worth studying Jake was asking about gear cutting using the generating process. The best known generating method is hobbing but "gear shaping" and "gear planing" are also generating processes. There was an article in Australian Model Engineering, Issue #101 March/April 2002, on a conversion of a shaper for gear generating. Technically this conversion is a "gear planer" because it uses a single tooth cutter instead of a gear-form cutter but it will correctly generate the correct tooth form for all tooth counts using a single cutter for any particular DP or module. Jake, have you seen this article? Anthony Berkeley, Calif. ------- Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2003 01:37:09 -0000 From: "Frank Black" Subject: Re: Generating Gears with a Shaper Metal web news has an article on making a form tool cutter http://www.metalwebnews.com/howto/gear/gear1.html . It's for cutting an involute form on a disk to be used in a mill. But what if the theory was used to create a pattern to grind a toolbit? After all a mill is just a radial shaper. I know it's been done before, Lindsay has a book on it (now where did that catalog go...) Sorry if I sound a bit spacey tonight, but I'll need to cut some gears in the near future and it's got me thinking out loud. BTW: www.lindsaybks.com is Lindsays websight. If you don't currently get their catalog, you should. It's full of what my 4y old nephew would call "neat s**t" (I didn't teach him that...) Have fun Jeff ------- Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2003 01:53:56 -0000 From: "Don Hill" Subject: Re: Generating Gears with a Shaper Model Engineer Magazine, if you can find it, 14 September 1950, pages 401 to 404, shows exactly what you are looking for. Article is called 'Gear Cutting With the Shaper' and details the equipment required. Good Luck! Don Hill ------- Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2003 10:17:54 -0000 From: "dreilanderecht" Subject: Re: Generating Gears with a Shaper > Model Engineer Magazine, if you can find it, 14 September 1950, > pages 401 to 404, Well I dunno if the original asker has found it but I have had a look at my copy. For those not having one, the technique uses a small dividing head that mounts on the machine table. The head has a mandrel to mount the gear blank towards the front, and a dividing gear towards the back. The dividing gear is a 120 tooth gear or any other convenient gear that comes to hand. (Must of course be an integral multiple of what you want!) Behind it is a drum of the size of the pitch circle of the gear to be cut, less an allowance for the wire size. The detent of the dividing gear is attached to this drum. A tensioned wire passes around the drum and is fastened at both ends to brackets attached to the fixed part of the machine. The tool in the shaper is ground to the right pressure angle with a suitable flat on the end. So it is one tooth of a rack. So as the shaper is traversed across the cut, the wheel to be cut is rotated such that the tool cuts a tooth shape. In actuality, this will be a series of small flats, but this will be negligible unless you are cutting a wheel with far too few teeth to be practical. Also the finer the feed of the machine the more flats there will be, and I suspect for most machines they will hardly be detectable. The drum then stays in the same place relative to the wire while the detent is moved to the next appropriate tooth to divide the wheel wanted The writer of the article claims this to be more accurate than ordinary gear cutters like the ones I used. While in principle it is better, I doubt that there is much in it in practice. It is true that ordinary gear cutters are a compromise, they are only correct for one pitch near the middle of the range, but are worked out such that the actual errors at each end of the range are less than the likely errors due to the machines used. But the main attraction of the method as described in the ME is that you don't need a set of gear cutters, which in my case cost my father the equivalent of about USD 150 about twenty years ago. That is a lot more than one stick of quarter inch HSS. The Ammco dividing attachment could easily be adapted for this technique. I think the technique could be adapted for helical gears too, which would call for angling the dividing attachment and maybe providing guides to keep the wire wrapping onto the drum properly. It does not lend itself to doing awkward numbers with a worm dividing attachment, but you could get around that by making a dividing plate for the actual number of teeth required for each strange number needed. regards John ------- Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2003 12:39:04 EDT From: anthrhodesx~xxaol.com Subject: Re: Generating Gears with a Shaper I looked up this article. It is, in fact, a generating method of gear cutting using a conventional shaper. Using the wires or straps for rotation of the work piece is a less than ideal solution but studying the proposal should give sufficient understanding of the concept to come up with a modified version of the proposed mechanism. Anthony Berkeley, Calif. ------- Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2003 07:58:38 -0000 From: "dreilanderecht" Subject: Re: Generating Gears with a Shaper The drawing with the article definitely says that it is the diameter of the pitch circle of the gear to be cut, less the allowance which as you say is half the wire diameter. Thinking about it, the pitch circle is the line along which the gear would effectively interact with the other gear or a rack. Eg if we were replacing the gears with smooth friction wheels, they would be the size of the pitch circle. So the effect of the wire is to move the blank as if it were in mesh with a rack, and the single tooth cutter acts as one tooth of the rack, so planes out the space needed by that tooth. in the process, the flanks will be given the exact involute curve needed for that size of tooth on that diameter of wheel. If we were generating the shape by the geometrical operation of unwinding a wire and tracing the curve that a point on the wire passes through, the correct circle would be the base circle. So if we wrap a string around a coffee tin and put a pencil through a loop on the end, it will trace the correct shape for a tooth. But that would be a hard way to actually cut the curve. The method described will actually cut the same type of curve. Incidently he does show the wire being fastened to the pitch circle disk, which would prevent it slipping. That would spoil the blank if it happened. regards John ------- Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2003 20:35:51 +1200 From: Tom Subject: Re: Re: Generating Gears with a Shaper Gould & Eberhardt who once made available such a setup, make the point as having 2 tapes wrapped around a disc of a diameter matching that of the "base" circle of the gear to be cut. Their setup was predisposed toward finishing gears that had been gashed. The tool set at a height equal to the middle of the tapes. The method is described as the Describing-Generating Process. Tom ------- Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2003 00:23:22 -0000 From: "dreilanderecht" Subject: Re: Generating Gears with a Shaper Well, after more thinking...Not withstanding Gould and Eberhardt, I still think that the pitch circle is the one that should be used. This is because the pitch circle of a gear should act as if it is in nonslip frictional contact with the pitch line of a rack. The pitch line of a rack will normally be halfway up the tooth. It is possible to make a gear that has the pitch circle at the base of the teeth, but then it must run with another gear that has the pitch circle at the top of the teeth, and I don't think that would be a common thing to do. Although they do some interesting things in clocks :) For any method there would be a benefit in pregashing the teeth with a cheaper cutter, save wear and tear on the good one. Although I didn't bother with my 20 dp ones the other day, but the cast iron is very easy to cut in one pass anyway. regards John ------- Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2003 02:49:34 -0000 From: "al_messer" Subject: Re: Generating Gears with a Shaper A fellow on another list simply ground a tool bit to match the shape of the desired gear tooth and shaped them with the down-feed using an index head mounted on the shaper box bed to locate the teeth in the gear blank. Al Messer ------- Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2003 00:25:09 -0000 From: "stevenson_engineers" Subject: Shaper cut gears. [PART OF THE NOV 2003 DISCUSSION, WHICH IS ON THE SAME TOPIC] OK I have had chance to redo the second article in the Shaper Cut gears saga. This has been proof read against the original article and all is present and correct. I have taken the opportunity to redo the original first article by Base Circle and posted that as well. Both files are in pdf format in the files section of the shaper pix group at:- http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Metal_Shapers_Pix/ Look for Shaper cut gears, article l and article ll John S. ------- Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2003 06:28:46 -0000 From: "dreilanderecht" Subject: Re: gears on the shaper [PART OF THE NOV 2003 DISCUSSION, WHICH IS ON THE SAME TOPIC] "al_messer" Please pardon my ignorance, but aren't you guys mostly talking > about "production line methods" for "mass producin" gears? It seems > to this ignorant old tinkerer that if you grind a tool bit to match > the shape and size of a gear tooth, turn your blank to the same O.D. > as the one you want to copy, mount on an indexing mandrel, rough it > out with a parting tool, then you should be able to make a "one off" > that will match the original. After the machine work is done, give > it a touch-up with a file if need be. Just look at the methods used by > Maudsley and his contemporaries to accomplish what they did. Al Messer Hi Al: I think the method under discussion falls somewhere in between. With home equipment, I don't think we are going to get gears that match the better commercial standards. On the other hand, we can probably do better than grinding a cutter by eye. Not that I would knock that, I have repaired a few items over the year with that sort of approach. It does require however that we have a gear of the size we want to cut, which may not be the case. The generating method under discussion does not actually require an existing gear, even though the photo shows one being used for the dividing. The dividing could also be done by a disk with the right number of holes drilled in it. The better we can make our gear, the less noise it will make and the longer it will last, all else being equal. So it is worth putting some effort into improving the quality, depending on the application. Some equipment did use foundry cast gears, which are perfectly OK for some jobs. The balance is always going to have to be up to the individual, and will depend on factors like the performance or accuracy needed from the gears, the number required, and so on. The generating method does require us to make a drum the right size for the gear, eg a new drum for every different size of gear, plus driling it with dividing holes. This is a big commitment for say five different gears for one job. On the other hand, if the plan is to make a dozen or so replacement gears for Ammco shapers, the initial investment of time and effort is amortised over more parts, which can perhaps be sold. If you need to be able to make a wide variety of gears then the standard gear cutter sets become attractive...provided you have some sort of mill to use them in. (I have a set for 20 DP which is handy for Myford change wheels.) I agree that it is well worth looking at the way the pioneers did things, they had the same problem as we sometimes have, eg a lack of the "proper" machine to do the job. regards John ------- NOTE TO FILE: Actually this discussion was also getting far too complicated for this mere mortal. Technocrats can read (much) more in the archives of Yahoo's Metal_Shapers group. A second huge, similar discussion started in late November 2003 under the thread Re: gears on the shaper (was Cutting gears on an Adept). Those less technically inclined (me included) can get the same feeling by going outside now and banging their heads against a large tree :-) ------- Date: Mon, 03 Nov 2003 18:08:36 -0000 From: "dreilanderecht" Subject: Re: best tool for a 45 degree "groove" in cast iron When cutting a dovetail, I try to avoid either face cutting as a form tool, eg both faces are generated by the tip of the tool. I would apply the same approach to this, so the tip of the tool should be a narrower angle than the V shape you are trying to cut. For a 45 degree angle you will need something like a 30 degree tool. You will also need to set the head over to the 45 degree angle. The clapper then needs to be set over too, but this needs a bit of thought...if you set it over too far, the tool will try to drag on the other face. So the clapper box angle should be such that the tool remains half way in the middle of the cut. So for this, around 20 degrees is about right. The clapper box sets around in the same direction as the head was tilted, but more, then the tool is set so that just the tip will cut. The tool should have a tiny radius stoned on the end. With all the strange angles, it is more critical than usual to check for clearances by turning over the machine by hand before powering up... regards John ------- Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2003 16:31:30 -0800 From: "larry g" Subject: Re: Re: New (to me) shaper arrived today > Geez, there just has to be some gears or pulleys laying around here > that "need" a keyway!!! :-) > Maybe that will be my first project, making a keyway cutter and > seeing how it goes! Just remember.. When cutting keyways, DISENGAGE THE TABLE FEED! Don't ask lg ------- NOTE TO FILE: Art posted this next after a very complex discussion started on internal slotting of a rather long object relative to normal keyway devices or our smaller shapers. Art is right, in the sense of the old truism: if all you have is a hammer, everything starts to look like a nail. ------- Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2003 17:58:58 -0000 From: "Art Volz" Subject: Rifling a Cannon Barrel & Internal Shaper Slotting...And..... ...the dangers of tunnel vision. Problem Statement: A 3/8-inch straight slot, cut internally the 24- inch length of an open ended 7-inch OD x 5-inch ID steel tube. Although Ray's Rocky could probably be set up with epoxied lengths of ching-chong hacksaw blades, the real question is have we concluded on a single process without considering other possibilities? Is the "design problem" "how to cut the slot with a shaper" or is it really "how to cut the slot"? From a "production design" aspect, I would say it should be the latter. If the 5-inch tube was a cannon tube of "Forty-one Forty and Fight" steel, or lead-butt whatever (DON'T use leaded for barrels!!!)--2 feet or 10 feet long--ordnance engineers would use a rifling machine, without twist, and cut a single groove with multiple cutting passes. Revolutionary American backwoods coon-skin capped gunsmiths grooved them infernal rifled smoke-sticks, that knocked the Hessians out of their pig-skin boots, with rifling machines made of virgin Pennsylvanian oak and wrought bog iron. My 1938 edition of Colonel Thomas J. Hayes' West Point text "Elements of Ordnance" has a section devoted to the basics of such rifling machines and how they are used to CUT LENGTHWISE INTERNAL GROOVES IN STEEL TUBES. (How I obtained that book is a story in itself...maybe a story for Christmas time when all else slows down...and the elves poop out from exhaustion. It contains shades of Exodus.) Doug, is this a real problem or just a theoretical one you came up with while otherwise unoccupied astride your ivory ceramic steed on a butt-cold morn? :-) If you have to do just a one-off, for the size piece of steel that you stated and with the stated slot dimensions, a Rube Goldberged jerry-rigged hydraulic log splitter (rented) with a home-brewed rifling tool holder and cutter could be readily contrived to cut your slot...and on the cheap. (Ray may even have one.) Nuthin' beats budget slottin'! "To slot or bust!" is my slogan. Art ------- Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2003 18:03:10 -0000 From: "john doe" Subject: Re: Internal slots cut with a shaper Years ago I was asked to cut a 3/4" keyway in a 3" bore by a local cement company, and the part was about 10" long! I did it on a small Hendy shaper I had at the time and just used a 1/2" tool and did it from both ends. Drill a hole in the center and then do one side and flip it end for end and start cutting the second side; when you get close start looking down the bore and eyeball the sucker in. Then I took a 3/4" new tool bit and sharpened the 15% end on it and pushed it through in the press. Well it took a few hours to do the job but the customer was happy and I got a good learning. If I remember right I charged them about $125 for the work, which was about half what I paid for the machine. Duffy ------- Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2003 22:11:21 -0600 From: "Ray Ethridge" Subject: Re: Re: Internal slots cut with a shaper Sounds like an interesting technique. I am assuming you pushed the 3/4 inch bit through with some kind of bushing keeping it in place, correct? Did you shim it up between passes like you would a broach? That sounds similar to a punch that a friend of mine uses to cut square holes, but he has to stop very frequently and remove the chip that is being formed. Ray Ethridge ------- Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2003 00:45:56 -0000 From: "John Odom" Subject: Slotting with the shaper Here in Chattanooga, during WWII at the Wheland Gun factory they made 155mm guns. The breech used an interupted thread. The thread interuptions were cut on a Rockford hydraulic shaper with an I-beam extension on which was mounted an indexing fixture and a lathe steady rest. The barrel was placed in this rig and indexed and the slots cut. Another similar shaper with index head, but without the LONG I-beam extention cut corresponding the slots in the breech plugs. I never saw the set up but a (now deceased) co-worker had photos and a breech-plug which I saw. John Odom ------- Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2003 18:59:12 -0800 From: "keith green" Subject: Re: Internal slots cut with a shaper I've done some big blind-bore slots on the machines (slotters) at work. You need some kind of relief in the back there. I missed your first post so I'm not sure what your part looks like. If the hole is blind you can groove it all around the bottom in the lathe, you can also offset it in the chuck so it runs out a whole lot and just turn a groove in one side. I've used Woodruff keyseat-type cutters to mill the relief in one spot if your hole is shallow enough for the cutter to reach. If it's the slot that's blind; use the milling cutter method above, drill a hole whose diameter = the slot width or mill a slot through from the outside. Without relief, your chips won't break but build up in the bottom of the cut until the tool breaks. 4130 or 4140 is tough stuff. Cutting speeds are in the 40 or 50 sfpm range. Cutting oil is a must. The chips will be long and stringy. This material in the annealed state uses the same cutting speeds and generates the same kind of chip but with lower cutting forces generated. As to the width of the cutter, you probably already know the maximum width your machine will cut without trouble so go with that and shift it sideways to get near the size. I usually set up and center with the finish-size tool (1¼ right?). Maybe take a few strokes with it so you see the boundaries of the slot when roughing. Replace the big tool with your little comfortable one and slot down almost to your finished depth (leave 0.005 or so), then shift to one side and repeat until you're close to the finished width (leave 0.05 to 0.1 a side or so). On the last depthing pass, go right to finished depth and feed sideways across the slot to make a smooth bottom. Switch to your 1¼ tool and finish it. To make it easier to measure your depth, I use the following formula to calculate the distance from the bottom of your finished slot to the bore wall opposite (cross-bore measurement): M = E squared divided by 4 x the bore diameter where M is the difference between the arc of the bore across the width of your cut and the bottom (flat) part of your slot and E is the width of your slot. When you get this little "M" dimension, subtract it from your bore + slot depth result. This will give you your cross-bore dimension. This equation can be found with a clear explanation in the Machinery's Handbook under "keyseating", "key depth" or something along those lines. Good luck. ------- Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2003 21:56:29 -0500 From: Dan Subject: Re: Rifling a Cannon Barrel & Internal Shaper Slotting...And..... Stated problem: cutting an internal slot (keyway) in a 22 inch long tube with 5 inch internal diameter using a shaper. ( Is this correct?) My comments and suggestion : First, it is obvious that the end of the tube must be at least 22 inches away from the ram in order to make a one stroke cut. This requires a tool holder that length plus a little extra for tool bit entrance and exit. The problem of rigidity arises quickly (Doesn't the rigidity decrease as per the cube of the length? Someone tell me, please.) An Unknown: nothing has been said about the correctness of the inside of the tube. Assuming that it is somewhat round and somewhat straight, here is a suggestion of how to approach this. 1) Take a piece of heavy angle iron, 5 or so inch legs and about 6 feet long. Weld mounting ears on one end, and a leg on the other. Bolt the ears to the shaper table and the leg supports the other end. The corner of the angle iron would point straight down so that the tube (work) would be lain on it, and clamped. 2)Turn a piece of metal 5 inches, or whatever so that it just passes freely through the tube. This part will hold and guide the cutting bit. 3) Drill and broach a hole for the cutting bit. Put a set screw above it to adjust the stick out of the bit and another screw at a right angle to lock it, if needed. Cut a place in front of the tool bit for chip clearance. 4) Weld a pipe a little smaller than 5 inches to this piece (4 perhaps). Make this pipe about 26 or 28 inches long. make a place at the other end of the pipe to attach to the ram. It will probably have to hang a little lower that the ram to go into the angle iron without the ram hitting the angle iron. 5) Adjust the ram for full stroke (24 in this case). Put the ram all the way back. 6) Lay the work on the angle iron and slide it until the 5 inch guide piece is starting into the work. Adjust the tool holder and vertical feed, and table so that the pipe (tool holder) will be pushing straight and level behind the guide piece and be sure that the work is in a straight line with the action of the ram. Clamp and tighten. 7) By know the TPI on your set screw, you should be able to advance the tool bit about as much as you want. Start with it level with the surface of the guide, and then advance it just enough to take a very light cut. 8) Start the ram and let it push the tool through. The guide should only come partially out of the bore of the work on each end. It must come out enough when retracted to access the set screw so as to advance the bit for the next stroke. 9) Advance the tool bit out on each stroke until the cut is complete. Problems: 1) The Accuracy of the cut will depend on the accuracy of the bore in the work and not the rigidity of the machine. Where ever the bore is inaccurate the cut will be. 2) Chip build up may clog the cut requiring light cuts and perhaps stopping to unclog; thus slowing things down. 3) The machine has to be stopped at each stroke to adjust the bit. Major slow down. Unless a mechanism would be devised to advance the bit automatically on each stroke. 4) Torsion or twisting may be a problem. If the tool bit is not on a 90 degree angle with the line of travel , or if it cuts better on one side than the other, it may tend to cut a spiral. A pipe for the tool holder will resist twisting better than a solid of the same weight and so I would recommend pipe. What this method is really, is a cross between a boring bar and a broach. You essentially have a one edge broach. I made a little sketch, but your files are full and I don't think attachments are allowed. So I don't know what to do with it. ( I will probably get plenty of suggestions, however, of what to do with it.) Dan ------- Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2003 07:30:37 -0600 From: "Ray Ethridge" Subject: Re: Re: Internal slots cut with a shaper >>> I think I would use bar about 48" long with the tool inserted midway and the outboard end supported by a bushing. I would rough out the slot by raising the table, then bring it to width with slight lateral travel. Carl <<< Carl, I think that would be a great mod to the operation. That way you would not need such a massive tool bar. And that is a really good plan about moving the table around. I had not thought if that. Still on my shaper you would need a table extension, but it would now have to be free hanging instead of supported by an external stand, unless you want to change the height of the stand corresponding to the height change on the table. That could be done though, especially with a stand built around an acme threaded rod like I was talking about. Ray Ethridge ------- Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2003 17:22:47 -0000 From: "xeno3579" Subject: Re: Internal slots cut with a shaper Hi there: The longer bar and outboard bushing is a good idea. However (I hope you don't feel insulted Carl), just because a shaper has a table that can be moved up and down does not mean that that is the only way to incrementally feed the cutting tool. Would you consider using (on the ram) a bar that is a (very) close fit in the bore, like a boring bar, and have the tool set with an adjusting screw that can poke the tool up in small increments. Now the bore itself supports the boring bar (lots of lubrication and frequent clearing) and the only force is on the cutting tool. Otherwise is this a job for a horizontal boring mill, used in the same manner as a lathe would be used to cut a keyway? Mb-A ------- Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2003 12:30:22 -0500 From: "Carl Corbeau" Subject: Re: Re: Internal slots cut with a shaper I don't feel insulted at all, the method has great merit. Just had to come up with a new idea. This should read... Your method has great merit Carl ------- Date: Fri, 07 Nov 2003 03:38:26 -0000 From: "Peter Verbree" Subject: Miter Gears on a shaper?? As many of you now know I am starting to restore a circa 1870 P&W planer. The cross rail on this machine is raised and lowered by two big screws, driven by two sets of miter gears. They are missing. With the information I have gotten so far they appear to be 10 dp 30 teeth. I can purchase stock gears for about $40.00 each (need 4) Sooo.... I was wondering...do you guys think that they could be made on my shaper? I have a dividing head, and I think that matching the tooth shape should not be too much of a chore but are there any special procedures for miter gears? Is this practical? any comments? Cheers Pete ------- Date: Fri, 07 Nov 2003 06:00:18 -0000 From: "dreilanderecht" Subject: Re: Miter Gears on a shaper?? While I am sure that you could make workable gears on a shaper, I wonder if it would actually be worth the trouble. This is because a miter gear needs two passes to cut it. One side of the gap is cut on one pass, and the other on the other pass...this is how you can manage to cut teeth that are the correct width, eg narrow at one end and wider at the other. The involute curve will of course only be correct in one place along the tooth, but that doesn't seem to matter much in practice. Also these gears on a planer are critical to the accuracy of hte machine, unlike our shaper bull gears which only need to transmit power and not be too noisy. So if you end up with too much backlash it will affect the operation of the machine. So Ok, it is a lot of money, but I would pay that for a planer! regards John ------- Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 05:18:26 -0000 From: "wfill" Subject: Shaper cut gears Here are pictures of my first attempt at cutting gears on the shaper, and it works great. http://tinyurl.com/2j9x2 http://tinyurl.com/2ooht http://tinyurl.com/36awd I worked from the method reported in the 1950 article, using materials in my scrap bin. In the pictures, a 32 tooth 20 d.p. gear is being cut. I made the 32 hole indexing plate on the rotary table, but for convenience I will probably change the indexing method to use existing gears, since I have drawers full of Logan change gears. The index plate and the workpiece are fastened to the shaft, with a pin through the drum into the index plate. The drum diameter is the pitch diameter of the gear being cut minus the diameter of the wire, as we have previously discussed here. The wire is .024 music wire, which for this gear size seems to be plenty strong. The wire is tensioned between two .375 cap screws fastened to a bar clamped to the column dovetail. This avoids having to drill into the shaper castings, and is easy to adjust. I am able to cut each tooth space in two passes, one roughing and one finish, incrementing the table by .003 per stroke. The total depth of cut for this d.p. is .108 inch, but since the gear is being rotated into the cutter, only a small amount of material is removed on each stroke. I used a roughing cut .090 deep and a finish cut of .018. The pressure angle was 14.5 degrees, so the amount of material removed from the tooth face and flank is quite small on the finish cut. There was some noticeable deflection of the workpiece on the roughing cut, so I might add a crutch to the shaft in front of the workpiece. All in all, the process is slow, taking about 5 minutes total per tooth space on my little Milwaukee Delta shaper, but it is fascinating to watch. The cutter is inexpensive, simply a quarter inch bit ground to an angle equal to twice the pressure angle, with a flat tip. I calculated the width of the flat on the tip to be .049 inches (for 14.5 degree PA, the flat width should be .972 divided by the d.p.) For shaping a replaced tooth, this method would be ideal. -Bill Fill Olympia, WA olymachinex~xxattbi.com ------- Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 06:53:12 -0000 From: "wfill" Subject: Re: Shaper cut gears "joe mama" wrote: > nicely done, bill. i am curious as to whether my assumption that the > angle of engagement between tool & work would be slightly more than > twice the PA was correct. thanx, joe Yes. On the finish pass, no more metal is removed after the workpiece has rotated 20 degrees past "top dead center". (I actually calculated this angle by measuring the transverse postion of the table and dividing by the pitch circumference.) But on the roughing cut, before any material has been removed from the tooth space, the tip of the tool first engages the outer edge of the gear blank at 35 degrees before top dead center. These measurements should be close but not exact. I plan to set up an antique tool and cutter grinder I was fortunate to find, and use it to more precisely grind the cutter. Bill Fill ------- Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2003 20:22:43 -0000 From: "stevenson_engineers" Subject: Not quite shaper cut gears Not exactly shaper related but I though some might be interested in seeing this. http://tinyurl.com/28qsx To get back on topic, this is the reason my forage into shaper cut gears has been delayed. This uses commercial hobs which can be expensive but it's main claim to fame is speed. I have just cut the brass gears in the pics in about 4 minutes per gear, same for the helicals and crossed helicals. The shaper cut gears main claim to fame will be cheap tooling but I think I can get cutting sped up a bit with a bit more automation. Another reason is I recently bought an Alba 18" shaper for my experiments thinking I'd bought a 12" Elliot on Ebay. However I have just stubbed my toe on a genuine ex schools 18" Elliot so I will be swapping machines after Christmas. John S. ------- Date: Thu, 01 Jan 2004 02:40:38 -0000 From: "jake2447" Subject: Lewis up and running- sorta ? I just got my old Lewis cleaned up, painted and running. It is looking good but I am not too happy with its cutting. To test it I grabbed an old piece of cold rolled and started to face it off. First problem: The ratchet on the lateral table feed is not working right. The pawl is not catching much of the time. The pawl is reasonably sharp and the splines seem to be OK, but there are some splines the pawl won't catch. I am curious as to what is the best way to true up the splines and pawl. Next problem: The surface finish is awful. There seems to be a tremendous amount of chatter. I have tightened down all the gibs, eliminated unnecessary overhang. There is still no change in the finish. Everything seems as rigid as possible. I am at a loss as to what could be causing the poor finish. Anybody got any suggestions on how I can get this old girl making blue chips and leaving a mirror finish. It has been over 30 years since I have run a shaper, so I must be doing something wrong. TIA Jake in Escondido ------- Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2003 18:40:30 -1000 (HST) From: Tom Benedict Subject: Re: Lewis up and running- sorta ? How's the fit 'n finish on your shaper's parts? I didn't know to check it when I bought my Lewis. Turns out the parts had been rough machined, but had never really been finished. There's enough play in the column that if I set the gibs at the bottom, it won't travel to the top. (And if I set 'em at the top, it gets cocked and binds going down.) The ram, which I figured would be the best fit of all, wound up being one of the worst. I hate to say I haven't got mine working after two years, but not all of it has been spent on the shaper. I figure a couple of weeks of evening scraping and the thing would be good to go. It's getting those weeks that's slowing me down. Too many projects! Let me know how your Lewis turns out and what you need to do to make her happy. As soon as I can reach my surface plate I'd like to start in on mine again. Tom ------- Date: Thu, 01 Jan 2004 20:05:56 -0000 From: "speedphoto300" Subject: Re: Lewis up and running- sorta ? Jake, remember, the Lewis was a "kit" machine, the quality of the result was dependent on the skill of the assembler. I would guess that there is some fitting yet be done, scraping and such. Joe ------- Date: Thu, 01 Jan 2004 21:50:34 -0000 From: "joe_sozanski" Subject: Re: Lewis up and running- sorta ? Jake, make sure the clapper isn't loose I don't know if the Lewis used a taper pin there or not. What kind of tool are you using? Lathe holders for hss tools aren't what you need on a shaper. You need a holder for carbide tipped tools it positions tool straight up and down. How did you hold the work? How deep a cut and what feed rate? A while ago somebody had a chatter problem and they were trying to face off a piece of angle iron and the unsupported side was causing the problem. Joe ------- Date: Fri, 02 Jan 2004 01:38:16 -0000 From: "jake2447" Subject: Re: Lewis up and running- sorta ? Joe et al, thanks for your input. Generally the shaper appears to be in good shape. No surfaces have been scraped. Everything seems to have been finished with a fly cutter. The original builder did go to the trouble of putting in several bronze bushings and gravity feed oilers, which I understand did not come in the kit. Most mating surfaces have little wear. Everything feels pretty tight once the gibs are snugged. There are no wipers on any of the sliding surfaces and there are a couple of places where swarf did make a few minor divots. The builder did neglect to put in any dials or means of measurement to tell how much of a cut or how much feed one is attempting. I was trying to do about a .020" cut with a range of feed from about 0- .020". Vertical passes seemed to be OK, but any amount of lateral feed produced a very poor surface. I used both a lathe tool holder and a multi position shaper type holder. Neither made much difference in the chatter. I probably need to do a better job on grinding my tools. The one I used was kind of a quicky to see if the machine would make chips. The clapper box seems to fit well and function properly. There is no taper on the pin. At one point I added a spring to assure that the clapper was closing properly. That addition actually made the surface finish worse. The vise is a POS and I do need to find a better one. I did find that the table with the key in is about a degree off of level, but figured that I could correct that pretty easily once I got the shaper cutting properly. Any thoughts on what I can do to get a more positive action on the ratchet for the table feed? Jake in Escondido ------- Date: Fri, 2 Jan 2004 10:16:51 -0600 From: Mike M Fendley Subject: Re: Re: Lewis up and running- sorta ? - 2 things to try Jake: Been reading your posts and another shaper guy "Jeff" might benefit from this as well. Two possibilities for your poor surface finish are as follows. 1) Your feed rate mechanism on the right side (usually coming off the bull gear shaft) may be 180 degrees out of phase. Most shapers will allow you to slide the dovetail or t-slot mechanism either side of the center line of the shaft. It is important that you pick the correct side depending on which way you are feeding your table. As the ram comes forward to cut you should hear the ratchet clicking, as the ram returns the ratchet should be grabbing the lead screw and advancing it. If you have either the feed reversed at the ratchet or at the feed setting, you can actually be advancing the table while you're cutting (a real no-no) and it will give you a crummy finish. 2) The second thing to check is for tool bit "dig in" on your work. If you are using a standard lathe HSS holder that holds the bit at an angle, "dig in" will be the norm and usually a poor finish. Even if you have a straight bit holder (for carbide) you can still get "dig in". The standard shaper holder will help correct that, getting the tool bit closer to the pivot pin of the clapper. However, a little trick I learned from an "old salt" was to turn the shaper holder 180 degrees so that the locking nut faces out and the cutting bit trails the holder (not leads). In this case the bit is usually right in line with the pivot of the clapper. Therefore if you hit a rough spot the bit tends to swing away and not dig into the work leaving a much nicer finish. Check or try those two items and let the rest of us know how you're coming on the shaper. Mike in Iowa ------- Date: Fri, 2 Jan 2004 12:49:05 -0800 From: "larry g" Subject: Re: Re: Lewis up and running- sorta ? - 2 things to try I have to agree with what Mike has said in part 2 of his post. According to the planer manual that I have, it also makes a point of making sure that the tool when deflecting will pull out of the cut and not into the cut. Therefore look at your setup and look for the weak/pivot point of the tool and make sure that it leads the cutting edge, thereby assuring any deflection is up and away. This doesn't guarantee elimination of chatter but will get you moving ahead. lg ------- Date: Sat, 03 Jan 2004 02:16:35 -0000 From: "jake2447" Subject: Re: Lewis up and running- sorta ? Mike and Larry, Well things are getting better with my old Lewis. I went back to basics and paid some attention to my tool grinding and found out that much of my surface finish problem was due to my poor tool grinding. Although the surface is not perfect yet, there is a vast improvement over the day before yesterday. I can see that the tool position is much more critical than on a lathe. The initial dig in is apparent on my test block. I will try a shaper tool holder this weekend. Thanks Jake in Escondido ------- Date: Sat, 03 Jan 2004 08:17:58 -0000 From: "dreilanderecht" Subject: Re: Lewis up and running- sorta ? Hi Jake: What sort of shape is the bit you are using? The most successful general purpose tool is shaped like a V when seen from the front. The angle between the two sides is typically around 60 degrees. Both sides need a clearance angle. The tip has a small flat so that the successive cuts just overlap. If the flat is too wide, the tool is more likely to chatter. The front face should have zero rake. If you are using a lathe type holder, you can grind the rake off...this is the opposite of the intent of building the rake in, so is a bit of a kludge but can work OK. But such holders are of course not ideal. I'm using a set like this that came with one of my machines but maybe oneday will end up with a lathe big enough to use them properly! The point about tools bending and digging in is not actually relative to the clapper box, at least not if the clapper box pin is a good fit. When the load is on the clapper box, it should be rigid enough to not deflect enough to matter for our purposes. But the tool itself and the toolholder if used will both bend under load. If the edge of the tool is ahead of the neutral axis then any bend will dig it in more, and this can be enough to drag things down and cause havoc. If the tip is further back, then any deflection will reduce the cut, so you get stable cutting. You can make a holder to put the tool behind quite easily, and it would be worth a try. regards John ------- Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2004 21:26:17 EST From: n8as1x~xxaol.com Subject: Re: Re: Lewis up and running- sorta ? randallx~xxfontaine-etal.com writes: > The tool I am using now is a HSS left hand finishing tool for mild > steel that I copied from an illistration from a shaper manual. This > tool I have now set in a home made multi position shaper two grinds will give me a finish barely second to a surface grind on steel on the flat w/ 7 in atlas ... one is a tool w/ a .0625 FLAT on tip ,,3-4 deg.clearance,set w/ as much flat as machine can stand w/out chatter & .001-.005 .cut .... second is a SHEAR grind ...tuff to describe ...try ...take a round nose, right hand lathe bit ground to a 3 -4 in radius w/ 3-4deg.cl., & 60 deg.side rake (yeah, 60) ...set this in shaper to cut from ur right to left (in front of shaper),so that the far right side of the side rake is to ur right (thinist part of bit )...in effect giving a fierce neg. rake like pushing the metal up a bank ....this second one gives an absolute superb finish ...nothing more needed best wishes docn8as ------- NOTE TO FILE: The full text of the next quoted passage is in the text file "Shaper History and Stories". When the thread changed to possible use of a shaper vice mill to produce a T-slot, follow-up messages were moved here. There is at first a misunderstanding as John needs a slot blind at one end while Doc thought it was a through slot. The thread touches on mill cutters, which will be interesting to shaper users as to possible alternatives to shaping procedures. =====> Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2004 00:26:50 EST From: n8as1x~xxaol.com Subject: Re: Re: what's going on in your shop? 1/26/2004, giolw9r4vh001x~xxsneakemail.com writes: > However...I will need to buy a T > slot cutter soon, and this is likely to cost about half of what I > paid for my latest shaper. Those little milling cutters are a lo cut it on the shaper ... rig a piece of gate hinge to lift & clear the work on return so as to not fracture the tool ... best wishes docn8as ------- Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2004 18:32:53 -0000 From: "dreilanderecht" Subject: Re: Blind ended T slot I'm not quite sure how you mean this to work. To explain a little more, the T slot on the AMMCO dividing head does not go right through. One end is available for the cutter to enter, but the other end is blind. I've done a T slot on the shaper where the cutters could pass right through, and I have also done circular ones, for swivel bases for vices. But with a blind one, the chip would pack at the far end. regards John ------- Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2004 21:57:07 EST From: n8as1x~xxaol.com Subject: Re: Re: Blind ended T slot > I'm not quite sure how you mean this to work. To explain a little > more, the T slot on the AMMCO dividing head does not go right through. sorry,John ....didnt realize that it was a blind slot ..didnt read carefully enuf ..........only way i know to work in a pocket is w/ clearance at the end .( a relief hole bored)_...cud blow each chip out w/ continuous air, if u cud keep from tearing up the tool on the reverse stroke .......dunno ....have not cut a tslot w/out lifting the tool out for the return...wonder what a lite cut w/locked clapper wud do??..i have shop made endmills, cornermills, counterbores & straight & tapered reamers ...i just might see abt fabricating a t slot mill ,maybe brazing a single or double edged piece of tool steel on a healthy arbor...maybe a rougher & a finisher to prevent clearance problems... best wishes docn8as ------- Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2004 03:32:23 -0000 From: "dreilanderecht" Subject: Re: Blind ended T slot > end .( a relief hole bored)_...cud blow each chip out w/ continuous > air, if u cud keep from tearing up the tool on the reverse stroke Actually the reverse stroke is not too big a worry, for this sort of cut you can lock the clapper. Yes, the tool will wear a bit on the backstroke, but not enough to be a real problem. But I would still need a place for the tool to clear on the forward stroke. I did just do a curved T slot on a vice base, inch wide and half inch slot, with the head of the T quarter inch deep and the total depth 5/8. The slot is around four inches diameter, and it was all done on the Myford, which is a bit on the small side for a job like this, but coped OK. >.......dunno ....have >not cut a tslot w/out lifting the tool out for the return..wonder what a >lite cut w/locked clapper wud do??.i have shop made endmills,cornermills, >counterbores & straight & tapered reamers...i just might see abt >fabricating a t slot mill ,maybe brazing a single or double edged piece >of tool steel on a healthy arbor........maybe a rougher & a finisher to >prevent clearance problems.... Might well be worth trying a home made cutter, either a single edge flycutter, or even as you say a two edged one. I make my own counterbores/pin drills, and have also made the odd woodruffe style cutter. The main thing for a T slot cutter is that it needs plenty of space for chip clearance, which is why a Woodruffe cutter is not recommended...I'm told they tend to burn up if you try a T slot with them, although I haven't tried it yet. The rougher and finisher sounds like a good idea, could take maybe half of the width out on one pass and the rest on the second. Could also take a couple of passes for the depth if that helped. regards John ------- Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2004 14:49:10 -0500 From: Bob Colquitt Subject: Contour Shaping How To Hello all: Finally being able to donate something to the shapers group. Here are 4 jpg's at 150 dpi from the 1960 PMSN on how to use a shaper to do contours along with a little device to help. The 4 jpg's are located at: <> They are each about 200K and can I ask that you don't all try to access on the same day - it may blow my ISP's capabilities - I'll leave up for a week or so. Tried pdf's but they were 4 times larger.... -=- Bob Colquitt ------- Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2004 09:59:53 -0000 From: "Frank Hasieber" Subject: Adept hand shaper. Hi all, the latest Model Engineers Workshop, No.96, has project by Harold Hall on using the Adept hand shaper to make an adjustable angle plate from castings, and is aimed at the novice, very interesting, but I can imagine the amount of physical work involved, covers 6 pages together with 15 photographs plus drawings. Regards to all, Frank ------- Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 20:59:17 -0500 From: "S or J" Subject: Re: Newbie question [NOTE TO FILE: The prior discussion of "Newbie question" was about what to look for in buying a shaper. See thread starting 10 Mar 2004 in the text file "Shaper General" here.] "dreilanderecht" wrote: >> ........ There are also tricks for coping with wear >> to some degree, but that would be another whole essay. :) Hi John: That was an excellent message. Your comments are always thoughtful, comprehensive and well received by everyone here. I suspect you realized what might come next after pressing send :-) There are few machines in our possession that could not do with a lot of tweaking to get the best out of them without having a complete rebuild. Could you start off the thread with a "short" essay on coping. Almost certainly the rest of our gang will then chip in with other ideas or variants on helping tired iron get through a job. Would be very helpful to all and find a special place in our archives of how-to shaper threads. Steve -- in Thunder Bay, Ontario, Canada Machining and Metalworking at Home http://www.janellestudio.com/metal/ ------- Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 08:33:18 -0000 From: "dreilanderecht" Subject: Re: Coping with wear Hmmm...I was expecting that either someone would pick up on the omission of any information about wear in the ratchet and feed department, or else they would ask about common breakages and what to do. Either of which is likely to be quite machine dependent. Anyway, I hope others will chip in, because I haven't encountered all the possible combinations, and mostly only write so much because I have realised that by going out on a limb and risking being wrong, you can sometimes get the otherwise silent guys to correct you. :) Coping with wear is going to depend a lot on the actual wear and the details of the machine. Starting with the easy ones first, mechanical noise can be dealt with in the time honoured way of going to thicker oil, which will help but should only be regarded as an expedience to allow you to machine the new part. Once a knock is noticeable it will get worse quite quickly. Then there is the possibility of building some parts up to avoid making new ones, a possible candidate here being to build up the sides of the die block if it is worn too small for the slot in the slotted arm. I intend to do this for my 10 inch Alba. (Round tuit needed...) Usually the block will be bronze, it can be tinned with white metal if you have it, good quality solder if you don't. (Not a lot of difference actually) The same thing can be one to the inside of a bearing, eg the hole in the die block could be filled and then rebored, as could any other bushes. But probably for any thin walled bushes it would be just as easy to make a new one...commercial bushes might be available too. There is a trick which may help if the cross slide is worn, allowing the table to sag a little. What you do is bring the table to the height you want, set the front support and lock it, then crank (or push) the table down against the support before locking the vertical adjustment. This ensures that the table support is loaded, helping to reduce any deflection due to the wear in the cross slide. This was discussed here once before, I think some others found it worked for them too. Incidently, although a shaper can true its own table if necessary, I think you should make sure that it is not worn in the cross slide area before doing this. If you correct sag by facing off the table, you are introducing another error...better to correct the actual problem. Wear in the leadscrews will of course affect accuracy, but only over the larger distances. This would make it hard to cut a rack for instance. I would work around that by temporarily attaching my digital calipers as a DRO scale. For small increments, as when facing down to a given thickness, wear in the downfeed screw won't matter a lot since you will only take a few thou at a time. You do need to watch the tendency for the downfeed to get pulled forwards into the job, a good lock on the downfeed helps here. You can sometimes set up the gibs to work over the range you need to use, at the expense of it getting tight at the ends of travel that are not normally used. This may let you use the machine satisfactorly for work smaller than its theoretical maximum, which might help to make that part you need.... Of course, none of these expediencies are really any substitute for actually fixing the problem, but may help, especially if the problem would otherwise involve too much hand work. While we are on those lines, it is worth looking at the techniques used in the Gingery books, even if you are not making the machine. You may be able to come up with something that allows you to machine some part, without actually having the right machine to do it. Like the way the old timers would machine a big flywheel rim using a couple of plummer blocks, a slot in the floor, and a compound rest. You mount the flywheel on a short shaft, in the plummer blocks in the slot in the floor, then mount the slide at a convenient point and machine the rim. Obviously setting up is key to get accuracy, but you certainly don't need a really big lathe. Detecting these various problems is a job for a dial gauge, and anyone who does not have one should consider getting one. Not too big, and a long travel is not vital. Small ones are easier to mount in interesting places like from the toolpost. Handy around the lathe too of course. regards John ------- Date: Fri, 02 Apr 2004 19:25:56 -0000 From: "kndroy" Subject: Tool Post Slop - How Do I Deal With It? Hello All. Fiddling with Eleanor last night (my shaper not my wife) I realized that, unlike a lathe, gravity is always pulling the tool post down so slop is never taken up. When the tool hits the work the slop is taken up and when the tool leaves the work the tool drops again. How do you guys get around this? Do you tighten the gibs up so the tool post doesn't drop? Forgot to mention it's an Atlas 9b. Thanks, Dave ------- Date: Sat, 03 Apr 2004 10:35:00 +1200 From: giolw9r4vh001x~xxsneakemail.com Subject: Re: Tool Post Slop - How Do I Deal With It? Most machines have a screw to allow locking the down feed. The gibs should be set up for a smooth fit, not really tight, and then the locking screw can be used to tighten it up. We don't tend to use tools with a lot of top (front?) rake because that would tend to make them pull down into the work. This is especially important when working bronze or brass. If your machine does not have a locking screw, it is worth adding one. Lacking a locking screw you could set the gibs up a bit tighter. regards John ------- Date: Sat, 17 Apr 2004 23:13:04 -0000 From: "oldarnmonger" Subject: First chips and a few questions from the newbie After taking way too long making a new die block, fabricating a motor and countershaft mount and then making a cabinet to put it all on, I finally got my rebuilt AMMCO 7" running this week. I think I may be getting the hang of it after about 6 hours of piddling around. Did surfacing on aluminum and mild steel, right and left 90 deg shoulder cuts, and squaring some stock without chattering the cutter. Running at about 80 strokes per minute, the heaviest cut I can manage in steel is 0.008 to 0.01". More than that, I get chatter or stall the machine. I attribute this most likely to my inability to grind a decent tool. I know that this is something better learned in-person from a good teacher, but - Is there a decent website on the subject, or at least some books that you would recommend for learning the art of tool grinding? Pictures of my shaper at http://andy.sargent.net/ammco - Andy Sargent Cleveland, OH ------- Date: Sun, 18 Apr 2004 16:06:47 +1200 From: giolw9r4vh001x~xxsneakemail.com Subject: Re: First chips and a few questions from the newbie Well, it is always good to hear of another machine back together and making chips again. What type of tool are you using? Is it held in a holder or directly in the toolpost? The type of tool I use for flat surfaces is shaped like a V as seen from the front. It has no front rake, and the bottom of the V has a small flat on it. It is just like a screwcutting tool with the end flattened off. The flat should be just wider than the amount of feed on each stroke. It can cut when traversing in either direction, which saves time winding back, but of course is not useful for cutting steps. If it is mounted in a holder it should be one that does not put rake on the tool. I emphasise the lack of rake since this can be factor, it can tend to cause the tool to pull forward into the job.If you are just mounting a piece of toolsteel direct in the toolpost, it should be a good big one, 3/8 would be nice. Bending in the tool (or the toolholder) can contribute to chatter. Some types of tool holder permit mounting the actiual tool at the back rather than in front, which helps. When the tool is near the front, bending will take it into the job, while if it is near the back it tends to reduce the cut. Actual angles are surprisingly non critical, provided you do actually have clearance behind the cutting edge. Too much clearance will tend to make the tool wear out faster or allow the edge to chip more easily before. So tools sharpened by eye are generally fine. You should be able to get the Ammco to take about a tenth of an inch maximum off cast iron, mild steel, or aluminium....thinking of the easy to cut grades here, not the tough stuff. I don't usually push mine that hard, in fact usually I would take off about 30 thou for a roughing cut. This is because although I intend to have a go at cutting one of those helical gears sometime, I am pretty busy at the moment! regards John ------- Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2004 21:58:43 -0000 From: "al_messer" Subject: Long internal keyways [Metal_Shapers group] Should long (6 inches plus)internal keyways be cut from the side with the table feed, or up or down with the tool holder feed? Al Messer ------- Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2004 17:45:01 -0500 From: mikejanfx~xxjuno.com Subject: Re: Long internal keyways Al, I recently had to do an internal female spline for a drill press. I have a 5/8 inch diameter "boring bar" type holder about 4" long for my Logan 8. It mounts in place of the tool post and is easy to make for any shaper. Trying to cut a spline with the cutting bit aimed down and cutting on the forward stroke brought nothing but chatter and completely stalled the machine with the cutting bit digging in. I turned the bit backwards and aimed it up to cut on the return stroke. The clapper does not come into play this way (although you drag the bit on the work.) However, I got a flawless spline and it worked magnificently. (Get your speed low.) You can see the set up (unfortunately not close-up) at our Metal_Shapers_Pix site. Look for "Modifications of a Logan 8." In the picture I have mounted an actual Armstrong Holder with boring bar for a shaper. In actuality I used the Logan tool for cutting the spline. Grinding the bit was key. Too flat, no cutting action. Too much rake, it would grab the work. About 3 degrees of rake seemed to make all the difference. Experiment with the grind until it works. Pictures of the Logan Slotting Post have just been uploaded so give it a look. Mike Fendley ------- Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2004 23:19:56 EDT From: n8as1x~xxaol.com Subject: Re: Long internal keyways on atlas 7 in cutting keyways in gears .....PULL stroke works cutting down ...lock the clapper & snug up the slide ....this also gives good vision of layout .........(.a little off topic here, but when setting the tool for a normal TRAVERSING cut, after clamping slide , reverse the feed screw to remove slack & do this each time u put on more cut this will prevent cutting deeper than intended.. check the reading before taking out slack so u know where u were) ........push stroke ,cutting up also works w/ a locked clapper & u dont worry abt slop in screw .....so apparantly the only position that is a problem is cutting down , on forward stroke ........i have managed it , by taking slack out of screw , but prefer one of the first two above ,when i can ...when cutting a WIDE keyway/slot, cant make up mind whether to take two 1/2 cuts,.... cut the middle out, then the sides,... or use a u shape tool cutting the outsides of groove, & then the inside .....i welcome comment ........ best wishes docn8as ------- Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 10:01:38 -0000 From: "pgp001" Subject: Re: Long internal keyways Al, one modification I did to my Atlas 7B was to add a lock screw to to the tool slide; this prevents any downwards creep whilst cutting. I think the omission of such a screw is a bad design flaw, but one that is very easy to overcome. I always do keyways on the back stroke, and as such I have done a further modification, and added a locking screw to the clapper box as well so the tool is nice and rigid. Phil ------- Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 [Metal_Shapers group] From: mikejanfx~xxjuno.com Subject: Re: What's up with cutting internal keyways? 20 Aug 2004 writes: > I'm considering adding a small shaper to my shop, primarily > to make some internally splined couplers. > However, the recent discussions here regarding cutting > internal keyways i