This is just one of some 80 files about machining and metalworking and useful workshop subjects that can be read at: http://www.janellestudio.com/metal/index.html ------------------------------------------------------------------ Here find many users' tips on operating a metal shaper. The metal shaper files are sometimes the hardest to categorize of any on this site. They frequently start as one subject and wander off onto other subjects. For example, someone asks about how to fix a metal shaper physical problem. The message thread, which you would expect to find in the file "Metal Shaper Repair General" sometimes ends up better suited for the "Metal Shaping Tips" file if the real problem is bad technique, not a faulty shaper. Sometimes that better technique also involves metal shaper bits and/or toolholders. We have a file here for that called "Metal Shaper Bits and Toolholders". But I cannot and will not put the thread in all files possible. The thread goes into the shaper file that is most appropriate (my choice) or causes me the least editing/typing and/or headache at the end of a long day. Just not enough space or time for posting, and then having to update, threads in multiple files. As mentioned on my home page, you will get the most information out of these files if you check through all of most likely ones for the problem at hand, if the file you try first does not have a full answer. It sure isn't a perfect system, but after a while you will gain the knack of scrolling/skimming files at high speed. If you have copied the files to your site, you can use your text editor or word processor to open all the shaper files at once, and do word searches across all open files at once. Yours can't do that? Get a free copy of NoteTab Light through the home page link. A very good tool. [I have no relationship with them except as a very pleased user of that free program.] NOTE TO FILE RE CUTTING GEARS: There are some good posts here about cutting gears with a shaper. There is also some technical stuff that you may skim through when needing to read just the practical stuff. Please read the file Gears General for additional information. If you got to this file directly from my HOME PAGE, return there by using your browser's back button. BUT if you came to this file as the result of a web search engine, see many additional files on my home page Machining and Metalworking at Home http://www.janellestudio.com/metal/index.html SAFETY WARNING BEWARE: DO NOT ASSUME that any subject matter or procedure or process is safe or correct or appropriate just because it was mentioned in a news/user group or was included in these files or on this site or on any other web site or was published in a magazine or book or video. Working with metals and machinery and chemicals and electrical equipment is inherently dangerous. Wear safety devices and clothing as appropriate. Remove watches, rings, and jewellery -- and secure or remove loose clothing -- before operating any machine. Read, understand and follow the latest operating procedures and safety instructions provided by the manufacturer of your machine or tool or product. If you do not have those most recent official instructions, acquire a copy through the manufacturer before operating or using their product. Where the company no longer exists, use the appropriate news or user group to locate an official copy. Be careful -- original instructions may not meet current safety standards. Updated safety information and operating instructions may also be available through a local club, a local professional in the trade, a local business, or an appropriate government agency. In every case, use your common sense before beginning or taking the next step; and do not proceed if you have any questions or doubts about any procedure, or the safety of any procedure. Follow all laws and codes, and employ certified or licenced professionals as required by those laws or codes. Hazardous tasks beyond your competence or expertise should also be contracted to professionals. Let's be really careful out there. (c) Copyright 2003 - 2015 Machining and Metalworking at Home The form of the collected work in this text file (including editing, additions, and notes) is copyrighted and this file is not to be reproduced by any means, including electronic, without written permission except for strictly personal use. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 21:55:05 -0000 From: "Art Volz" Subject: Re: Shaper surface finish --- In Metal_Shapersx~xxy..., "bclark64" wrote: > I wish I could get a surface like that on my porter cable. I don't > know if it's my bad attempt at grinding bits or the fact that there > seems to be only a very narrow band of table feeds that actually work. > When I try to make the table feed slower, it just stops feeding all > together. Coarse is about all it does. Since I don't have a manual for > it, I'm just guessing how it's adjusted. The smallest feed that you can get per ram stroke is one tooth of the ratchet gear wheel. Compute table traverse feed using number of teeth in this gear plus the threads per inch of your traversing feed screw. (How many teeth are on your ratchet gear/wheel? How many TPI does your traverse feed screw have?) Does your ratchet wheel pawl work...all of the time...or is it worn out? You can't do any better that one tooth--but you should be able to adjust your actuator links and eccentric wheel on your bull gear shaft to get ONLY one tooth per ram cycle. It's pretty simple to do and is straight forward. Leave a slight angle at the point of tightening of the two links so that if the table slams into either end of the saddle this "knee" will "break" to preclude something really breaking (Joe W's suggestion--and how he does it on his Logan-8). You basically have 2 adjustments to make: length of the locked together acutator links, and the radius set at the vee-slotted eccentric wheel. Also remember that your tool bit has to be cut so that it overlaps the cuts per each table feed...or your surface will look like its "threaded" like a gear rack. I don't know of any manual extant for the P-C-7 or, for that matter, the early Logan-7. I suggest that the manual closest to your P-C would be the one for the early models of the Logan-8. Contact Scott to see if he has this manual--I know that he has the one for the later Logan-8 which is also applicable to the subsequent Brodhead- Garrett J-Line-8's. (Scott, if you need a copy of the early Logan-8 manual, let me know and I'll have one sent to you for your distribution.) Art (Houston) ------- Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 19:51:21 -0600 From: "Mario L Vitale" Subject: Re: Re: Shaper surface finish bcclark, I had the same problem with table feed when I got my Lewis. I'm not sure what the feed mechanism is like on the Porter Cable (PC?) but my Lewis has a ratchet mechanism, which took a bit of fiddling with. If your PC has a ratchet, set it for a very low feed and hold your hand on it when it's supposed to advance just to see if it works. If so, take the ratchet mechanism apart, clean, lubricate and fiddle with the spring tension till you get it to work. Good luck, Mario ------- Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 20:46:01 -0000 From: "Art Volz" Subject: Re: Shaper surface finish Mario--That's a relief--a real load off of my brain. For a second I thought you were using that cursed "silver bullet" stuff--as the Fonz (sp?) would'ave said: "Aaahh, jus' sit on it!"-- Ortsia-Fecescitium 7734 (Church Latin pronunciation) with a wiper insert. (Reportedly, this is the same alloy used on the bottoms (have to look at mine upside down) of the Red Dragon's FU2 Fighter's Hell-4-Sure Anti-Styx missile. Still Tip-Top Secret so I don't 4 sure know.) Sure glad ya ain't using that stuff. Whenever I try to cut it, it's such a load on my personal machinery that it causes everything in my shop to have a brown-out. Nothing runs...and the glim doth dim. As for your Lewis' shaper cutting speed. Send me your computed RPM's obtainable at your bull gear shaft via belt flip-flopping on your pulleys--use pulley pitch diameters and not their outside diameters to compute. (I know that you know this Mario--just added it for our "reader"'s lesson-of-the-day.) The table I normally use is the one for Chicago brand die cast pullies as found on page 805 of Wholesale Tool's 2002 catalog. ( http://www.wttool.com ) For example, Chicago's 4-step #141 pulley has outsider diameters of 2", 2-1/2", 3- 1/2", and 4"; to compute RPM's the respective Pitch Diameters to use, however, are 1.75", 2.25", 3.25", and 3.75". That said, give me your obtainable RPMs and I'll send you a "Kustomized-by-Art" chart thingee- thingie that will allow you to determine Ram cutting stroke average velocity (with ends of the velocity ellipse-ie curve cut-off--they're the non-cutting portions of the curve used for lead-in and lead out) by simply going to the chart input RPM and reading Speed (in FPM) at the set stroke length which is a variable. Simple as pumpkin pie: "Olde Tyme Recipe Book: "First catch a pumpkin and then...." Now, if two UV emitter/phototransistor sensing modules (Radio Shack used to have them--don't know if they still do) were set at a known distance at the top of the column and a sheet metal interrupter was placed on the ram so that it triggered the sensing modules during the main portion of the cutting stroke when the velocity "flattens-out", and then input these "triggers" via parallel port into a 386 with a simple program written in speedy COMPILED PowerBASIC ( http://www.powerbasic.com ), you could get a constant velocity number printed to your B&W 640X480 (pixies) 14-inch diagonal VGA monitor. Could even get it to print the numbahs to screen in Italian...or in Roman numerals too as long as you don't need any zeroes. Would be just like eating peanuts with the pidgeons at the Plaza d'San Marco...if it ain't being flushed by moon-tides. Art (In Houston and thinking about nuking my ded buzzard (aka: turkey) in my new mid-sized George Forman rotisserie manana-banana. The kids think it's a TV and are planning on watching the Big Apple's Thanksgiving parade on it tomorrow morn. It took 'em a whole year to figure out that the microwave wasn't a TV...and that the dish washer wasn't a special wash machine for undies. We're a slow learner bunch, I guess...but, I can sure cook-up a helluva Italiano poached salmon fillet, enwraptured in foil, in my dishwasher autoclave. :-) ) ------- Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 21:50:59 -0500 From: "Dave Audette" Subject: Re: Re: Shaper surface finish I just went through this a few months ago with my 7" Logan which is identical to the PC. I had a couple of sheared pins to replace , the linkage needed a great deal of adjustment and the pawl assemble had to be reoriented. Once all that had been done it finally fed correctly. I keep the feed pretty fine and just (I can see Art cringing right now) crank up the speed a bit if I want to finish faster. I had to disassemble the whole thing to get everything right but it's really not a very complicated mechanism so tearing into it shouldn't cause any fear, it's all very straightforward. Dave Worcester, Mass www.broncosaurus.net ------- Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2002 02:14:48 -0000 From: "ptkeillor3" Subject: Re: Shaper surface finish Hi, guys. I just got done with a trial cut on some scrap on my 8" Logan this past Sunday. It looked good to me, but there was a very fine striation perpendicular to the stroke, not as pretty as yours, Mario. One thing I noticed was that the table feed screw has to have some resistance for the ratchet to work. Mine was floating in the backlash. It started feeding when I turned the feed screw by hand until it snugged up. Mine was also missing the flanged bushing at the link-to-ratchet bolt. I made one this evening from brass, and just installed it. It now adjusts from .002" feed (1 click) to .012" feed. There was too much slop before. I just got in some 1/4" bits from J&L, and will try grinding some this weekend, like the left and right hand roughing, and a shear type finishing. We'll see how it goes. Pete Keillor ------- Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2002 06:53:02 -0000 From: "Art Volz" Subject: Pete's Perpendicular Striations & FPM: Shaper surface finish > Hi, guys. I just got done with a trial cut on some scrap on my 8" > Logan this past Sunday. It looked good to me, but there was a very > fine striation perpendicular to the stroke, not as pretty as yours, > Mario. Pete--Noticing the perpendicular striations is an interesting observation. We like to think of our drive systems--straight geared and/or chain & sprocket--as having a smooth and relatively constant velocity but, they don't. The straight geared bull gears and the chain & sprocket bull wheels jerk between each tooth and each link. The Lewis is a straight geared type, the Logan is a chain drive. These jerks can be seen in the surface finish perpendicular to the ram stroke. To minimize these jerks, smooth running helical gears where often used as on the Shape-Rite-8 which had its final four gears in the train of helical tooth form. Hydraulic and direct screw drive rams were also noted for their smoothness. Mario's relatively slow surface speed of about 95 fpm (right Mario?), and the concurrent lessening of overal machine vibrations, propbably assisted in obtaining the smoothness of his cut surface as 300 fpm is a "normal" speed for HSS cutting of aluminum and its alloys. Art (Houston) ------- Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2002 06:32:08 +1100 From: "Terry Lane" Subject: Re: Re: Shaper surface finish Original Message From: "Art Volz" To: Sent: Wednesday, November 27, 2002 4:47 AM Subject: [Metal_Shapers] Re: Shaper surface finish > Mario-- > Took me a bit to make "cents" outta it...but...finally...it added up. > Eleven cents, right? > Almost a perfect mirror. Tell us more about your material, feed, > speed, and DOC...and how you prepared your tool bit. Art (Houston) Original Message From: Mario L Vitale: >>Art, I should have known that someone would ask for those details (and I should have known it would be you) Unfortunately I won't be much help. I almost added to my note that the roughing cuts were removing around .012/.015 and the finish pass was .005" but since that was about all I could quantify, I thought I'd avoid all the following "I don't know"s... The tool bit was very crudely ground , by eye, to clearance and rake angles that "looked good" and has a fairly large (.19"?) corner radius. I will add another photo of the tool bit. I should mention that I did give the tool a few swipes with a diamond lap just before the finish cut. The material is "offallium". Don't know what the alloy is, but is probably 7000 series aluminum(7075, or maybe even 7050). With regard to feeds and speeds, I just ran down and put an indicator on the table and its feeding at .008" per stroke (that doesn't hurt the finish!) but I don't know what the cutting speed is. I can make it slower or faster but I haven't a clue as to how to set the cutting speed to a specific 's.f.p.m.' or to measure it, other than with a stop watch and a ruler....Any suggestions? Mario << Mario - RPM of bull wheel x stroke in inches /2 /12 will give you a rough & ready FPM - close enough for our purposes any'ow. Tel ------- Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2002 10:43:58 -0500 From: "Dave Audette" Subject: Re: Re: Shaper surface finish It's not all that difficult to disassemble the ratchet mechanism and it's very straightforward once you get it apart. I just did the one on my Logan a few months back. Probably the biggest variable was the amount of preload on the pawl. I had initially adjusted everything so that there was very little drag on it but that didn't allow the pawl to grab, there has to be some resistance for it to work properly. The other problem I had was that the linkage was bending like an elbow, once I had it tight & straight it started to feed correctly. Tighten down a bit on the double nut arrangement on the left hand side of the table to add a little tension and see if that doesn't help out some. Dave Worcester, Mass www.broncosaurus.net ------- From: dkinzer2000 To: Metal_Shapersx~xxyahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, December 07, 2002 5:27 PM Subject: [Metal_Shapers] My first shaper project Although I had intended to disassemble, clean and rennovate my recently acquired Atlas shaper before beginning to use it, I ended up using it for an interesting project this weekend - cutting internal splines in a gear. Never having used a shaper before, this was quite a learning experience. I took some pictures of the setup that I used and the finished product. They can be viewed here: http://www.kinzers.com/don/MachineTools/internal_spline Don Kinzer Beaverton, OR ------- Date: Sun, 8 Dec 2002 10:51:03 -0600 From: "Ray Ethridge" Subject: Re: My first shaper project Good looking project, Don. Well done! Ray Ethridge ------- Date: Sun, 08 Dec 2002 05:45:30 -0000 From: "dkinzer2000 " Subject: Re: My first shaper project The gear catalog that I looked at didn't say anything about it being hardened. It listed "steel" and "cast iron" gears. I figured that the steel ones were non-hardened. Before I started work on it I checked it with a file just to be sure it wasn't hardened. It machined nicely. Here's a link to the PDF for Boston Gear's "change gears": http://www.bostongear.com/pdf/gears_catalog_sections/gears16-24.pdf Don ------- Date: Sat, 28 Dec 2002 10:09:03 +1300 From: Tom Subject: Re: tool for cutting tubing rib Ray Ethridge wrote: > I am not sure I am following what you need, can't you cut ribs out of 3" square tubing with a cutoff saw? It would seem like a shaper would not be the tool of choice there. > Original Message ----- > From: easygoing12101 > To: Metal_Shapersx~xxyahoogroups.com > Sent: Tuesday, December 24, 2002 6:57 PM > Subject: [Metal_Shapers] tool for cutting tubing rib > Anyone know how to make a tool holder to cut the rib out of a piece > of 3 square tubing. Or is their a secret to this, that I haven't > found yet. thanks I've got an idea that he wishes to remove the welding flash inside the tube. I've been waiting for him to come back with a length.. An internal keyway cutting bar would do it for short lengths. A couple of years ago, I removed the flash on a piece about 10' long by making a tool-carrying block that I winched through with a friend's 4 x 4 mounted winch. Tool has to be adjustable and set back in the block so there is support at the start of the cut. If cutting a long length this way, there needs to provision for the swarf to excape as it curls up. Tom ------- Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 10:19:54 -0000 From: "matt_isserstedt " Subject: Suppose I wanted to make a wrench I need to make some new box wrenches for a 3/4" square shaft. No problem, I've got a shaper to clean out the internal square hole! I'd like to impart a slight taper to the handle of the wrench, (all made from a piece of 1/2" or 1" thick flat steel...haven't decided on the "beef" factor yet), about 10" long. My question deals with setup...Either I can set the scribed lines for the tapers level with the top edge of the vise, and take a large number of small 1" or so strokes, or try to set up the part parallel to the stroke and make just a few long light cuts. For stiffness reasons it seems like the first setup would be better but sure would take a longer time to complete. In addition, I think I've picked up that internal work with a boring bar type setup requires the clapper to be fixed. My Atlas had some nice work done to it which had a spring that could be engaged to provide some load to force the clapper home. My question is: What is the correct way to secure this...solid as in with a specialized clamp, or is something compliant like a giant rubber band going to be OK? Any good advice appreciated on setup? TIA Matt [Atlanta] ------- Date: Sun, 02 Mar 2003 14:52:14 -0000 From: "xtrucker_1999 " Subject: cylinder heads what do you think about using a shaper to surface cylinder heads? seems like i could get a better finish than i could get on the bridgeport. dt ------- Date: Sun, 2 Mar 2003 14:50:49 -0500 (EST) From: Bill Slugg Subject: Shaping a Cylinder Head I have done a three cylinder aluminum head. The finish was good. Main difficulty was in finding places to clamp it down. Beware of small bosses on the head that could break off if too much clamping force is used. I learned the hard way. Bill Slugg Albany, GA ------- Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2003 04:14:18 -0000 From: "dreilanderecht" Subject: basic shaper operations Hi All: Just to put my money where my mouth is, I have started a directory called "Basic Shaper Operations" and posted a file in it called "Squaring a Block". This is a text only file describing the basic operation of squaring up an approximately square block using a shaper and its vice. It has no illustrations. This gives the idea of the sort of thing we could usefully have here for the guidance of learners. Feel free to suggest improvements. You might like to write your own outline of some technique, maybe cutting keyways, or dovetails, or how you held some tricky item. Diagrams would be helpful too, except that I note that we seem to be using a large proportion of the space available...our honoured host may have to make some decisions some time about what is valuable, or we might have to find another place to host some things and provide links to them. With a bit of input, this could be a useful beginners guide. What do you think? regards John ------- Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2003 07:36:23 -0000 From: "dreilanderecht" Subject: Re: basic shaper operations Ok, so now I have added another one with a description of a technique that can help with inside keyways. It really does cry out for a diagram, so I hope the text only description is enough to help you see how it works. Provided the blade of the tool is set vertical, then the bobbin ensures that the keyway is radial and properly placed. The depth is another problem! But exact keyway depth is not usually a great problem. ------- Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2003 21:11:06 -0400 From: "Jeff Benetti" Subject: RE: Re: basic shaper operations I really like the sound of this message thread, I am still a few months from having a working shaper at my disposal. Being a toolmaker by trade I should be able to figure out most setups ( I hope ! ). For me the big issues would be how to 'correctly' treat (operate) the machine. For example the table support thingy. What is the correct procedure for adjusting this, do you just let it slide down under it's own weight and then locked in place? Or should it be slightly clear (.001"-.002"), or should there be preload. I am assuming that the table should be raised before adjusting and not lowered ( take out backlash ). Also should it always be used or just for roughing cuts or just for heavy pieces. When I tilt the table ( assuming it isn't seized solid :-) ) the table support on my machine would be at an angle, I am assuming I would not use it in this instance. Also the stroke ??? Does a good shaper operator capitalize on the fact that the ram is very much accelerating at the start of the cut. Do you try and start the cut while you are ramping up to cutting speed or do you want the cutter up to speed before it makes contact? These are shaper specific questions. Often setups are job specific and based very much on what you have on hand at the time. Lots more questions where these came from. Jeff ------- Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2003 07:12:54 -0000 From: "dreilanderecht" Subject: Re: basic shaper operations Well, the technique that I use is to set the table to the height I want, then free the support, then wind the height down against it so that there will be no slack in the support. I lock the vertical adjustment gib on the machines that provide for this afterwards. Now, my justification for this is only theoretical, so I am prepared to listen to other ideas, and will at least argue that this works for me... My thinking is that so long as the machine is in good condition, then there should be very little movement in the horizontal slides. (Other than the way they are meant to move) On the other hand, any metal structure will flex under load...Youngs modulous and all that. So even assumming that the slides are perfect, the end of the table would tend to spring down a little under load. But by making sure that the support is ready to take load and even lightly preloaded, this should prevent, or rather greatly reduce, any springing down. On the other hand, if the slides have too much clearance, then my approach might not be the best. One could imagine that the table is drooping below horizontal before the support is lowered, and then being pressed above horizontal when the support is lowered and the clearance taken up. I would suggest that if a dial gauge test shows that this is happening, then the machine needs some work. Once the support is set, I leave it there for all cuts. The table on my Alba 1A can tilt, and the end of the support is rounded so that it could still be used in this condition. However, one can see that the forces might tend to make the support bend sideways. Some of the universal table shapers have a much better arrangement than this, and if I foresaw using it a lot I might well try to make a similar arrangement. You want a reasonable clearance at the start of the cut, mainly to allow time for the clapper box to drop back at the end of the return stoke. I like to allow about half an inch on the seven inch shaper, a little more when possible on the bigger ones. At the other end, you really only need enough to ensure that the tool always clears the cut, quarter of an inch is plenty. I will tolerate less if the job only just fits the machine, but that may mean setting the stoke rate lower. If the tool is not dropping back in time, you will hear it and will see that the finish looks not so good along that edge. They can bounce too, hence the spring arrangement on some machines. Because of the intermittent cut on a shaper, you really want the tool cutting as much of the time as possible. So it is a bit naughty to do a one inch job with the stroke still set to 6 inches or so. Not that it will necessarily do any harm, but it means that you will have to run the shaper at the lower speed that the longer stroke demands. You could have the same tool cutting speed with a shorter stroke and a higher stroke rate, and therefore get the job done quicker. It is very true that setups are very specific, often coming down to finding an odd shaped piece of scrap in the junkbox that just suits the need. That doesn't mean that they are of no interest to others, even if not directly applicable. Of course, it is different on the Ammco with its drilled table to the other machines with slotted tables...the holes are not always ideally positioned, and although there are already two extra for the vice, I'm not going to make any more. One thing I will mention is that a selection of flat bar with holes drilled, ready to bolt across the front of the table to make a fixed stop of a suitable height is very handy. Just put in the number of bars that gives you a stop sufficiently lower than the job. This is a reassuring thing to have with any job where you are limited in the number of places that you can hold it down, eg the stop will stop it sliding forwards, so there is less demanded of the other studs or screws. Now if others would contribute their ideas, we could then collate them together and put this with the other files... regards John ------- Date: Fri, 04 Apr 2003 09:02:20 -0000 From: "dreilanderecht" Subject: Re: Cutting circular T slot --- In Metal_Shapersx~xxyahoogroups.com, "Art Volz" wrote: > Why not tell us how you turned the T-slot in the swivel base. But that is a lathe job, not a shaper one! It takes three stages, first trepan out a slot the right width and depth. This takes a tool like a parting tool but with suitable side releif to clear the curve of the slot. Like a parting tool it can be a bit inclined to chatter too, but with slow back gear and patience it will do the job. Next you need left and right T slot tools. These are a piece of tool steel brazed onto a mild steel shank. (Keysteel is good for these) The shak and toolbit must be able to fit into the slot, so it follows that the shank will be half the slot, and the tool bit also half. Therefore the T arm will be able to be half the slot width deep. My tools are the full width of the desired slot, about 3/16 IIRC, and they cut like going thorough butter on this job...I had been expecting it to be tricky but it was beautiful. The material was continuous cast iron bar. It took longer to make the cutters than to do the rest. It is sometimes surprising when a job you have been fearing a little turns out to be quite manageable. To get back "on topic" for the list, the same technique is used when cutting T slots in the shaper, except of course the initial slot cutter does not need such side releif since it is cutting straight. I haven't cut any slots for tables etc but did test the pair of T slot cutters on a stray piece of cast iron before doing the round one. This is one of the few jobs where the clapper box should be locked, since if the tool swings it will foul the top of the T arm. Obviously for professional work it would be done with a slot drill followed by a suitable T slot cutter, and I even have the means to do that now, but didn't back then. But for us cheapskate amateurs there is a certain attraction to doing it with about US$1 worth of tool steel, even if we do have to put more time in. Well, nobody is making me fill in a time sheet! Now that you remind me, I think I have seen that Ammco vice drawing before, anyway I will grab the drawing and have a look, since the vice the Ammco has now does not have its swivel base and is really a bit high even without it. But it would go well on my mill drill! regards John ------- Date: Sun, 06 Apr 2003 09:48:08 -0000 From: "dreilanderecht" Subject: Pictures In Line with Art's suggestion I have posted the pictures, including the extra ones that I scanned tonight, to http://www.metalworking.com/dropbox I hope the webmaster there does not mind us co-opting their facility! Unless any of you specificly ask, I won't send them out individually. Anyway, they will give you some idea of the sorts of things that are possible with a shaper, and will aslo show you that my workshop is not always the worlds tidiest place. The green cast shows that I have flourescent lights in there... regards John ------- Date: Tue, 08 Apr 2003 20:46:49 -0000 From: "lkasdorf" Subject: Atlas shaper X travel not enough I was attempting to clean up the end of a 5" long piece of 5/8" square steel bar with my new shaper. I figured I'd move the vise over to the right side of the block, and mount the bar so that it was vertically oriented. I did this. Then, I tried to rack the box over to the left such that the work was under the cutter. I ran out of travel! It seems to me that there is not a lot of utility in mounting the vise on the right side, if you can't get the work under the cutter. I spose the thing to do would be to directly clamp the work to the table, and carefully insure that it is square. On this machine, would the "proper" method be to put the vise on top, mount the work so that it extends out to the right, and use a cutter that tilts into the work? Then advance the cut manually with the top crank? It seems that turning the lantern at 90 deg so hits the end of the bar would put unpleasant stresses on the clapper. Am I wrong? ------- Date: Wed, 09 Apr 2003 00:20:45 -0000 From: "dreilanderecht" Subject: Re: Atlas shaper X travel not enough This is one reason why low vices are favoured for shapers. But also some machines don't really provide as much travel on the cross slide as would really be desirable. The Alba 1A is one that could use a wider cross slide. The trouble is, you want a wide table, but if the table is wider you get less available travel at the end. Like everything, there has to be a compromise. Some machines permit you to take the table off and bolt a job straight. For your particular job, mounting it directly on the side would be a good approach. You can use a square to make sure it is vertical, and provided the table is square it should give a square end Ok. So one accessory that you really want to arrange is a set of T nuts and clamp dogs, with a range of screws and studs to suit. Some lengths of the right size of studding are handy too, you can cut the exact length needed. After a while you have a collection of short lengths of slightly tatty studding.... Some machines provide you with a V groove that is handy for mounting round bar on the side like this, you can also use it with square bar if you don't mind cutting it with diagonal strokes. You can use the vice to mount the bar horizontally on top as you describe, then take a facing cut down the end using the downfeed and a knife tool. It is sometimes hard to be sure if the downfeed is really set up vertical, and it is fiddly checking this with a dial gauge and square. So setting on the side of the table would be better for a job you want as accurate as possible. When you are doing a vertical facing cut you need to angle the clapper box so that the top is further away from the cut, so that as it swings it give clearance. I don't think it is usual to turn the post to bring the tool right out to one side, and that would tend to use up more of the lacking side travel anyway regards John ------- Date: Wed, 09 Apr 2003 18:15:11 -0000 From: "al_messer" Subject: Re: do you ever lube the cutter when shaping? It depends upon the task at hand. A lot of my "shaping" is roughing stuff I have scrounged down to sizes and shapes for whatever project is on-going. When I'm roughing Hot Rolled or anything with a lot of rust on it, I usually use a light cutting fluid such as WD-40, or sometimes, 10w-30 motor oil. It seems to give a better finish and keeps the tool bit sharper longer. When milling, I usually do it dry and keep the chips blown out of the way of the cutter as small amounts of cutting fluid seem to cause the chips to gum up the works and leave a rough finish to the cut. ------- Date: Wed, 09 Apr 2003 19:58:28 -0000 From: "Art Volz" Subject: Re: do you ever lube the cutter when shaping? Lynn-- Al is right. [NOTE TO FILE: SEE ART'S BOOK RECOMMENDATIONS AND EXCELLENT COMMENTS IN FULL IN THE Metal Publications TEXT FILE.] [SNIP] Nothing specifically on shapers/planers (older Krar editions had this info--they are featured in my 3rd Edition), but a shaper, if you look at it from a different point of view, is really a "flat cutting lathe" --generally what is true for a lathe is applicable, generically, to a shaper/planer, but you've got to be able to "read between the lines"...to "see" outside of your box. Enjoy! Art (Houston) ------- Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 01:26:52 -0000 From: "dreilanderecht" Subject: Re: do you ever lube the cutter when shaping? I generally use soluble oil when doing anything reasonably heavy in steel, especially tougher steel like gauge plate. I don't use anything with cast iron, brass, or bronze. I possibly would if I found myself shaping copper, I believe milk is supposed to be good for this! Kerosene, as it is called in the USA, or paraffin as the brits call it, is just the thing for aluminium/aluminum. I don't have any fancy arrangements, usually just a squeeze bottle of diluted soluble oil. I have also been known to give the job a squirt of the same oil that I lubricate the machines with, a nonadditive lubricating oil intended for use with rotary pumps etc. It does pay to clean up afterwards, as soluble oil will stain the table where it is trapped in a gap, like between the vice and table. Not that it does any harm but it is unsightly. One advantage with shapers is that the cutting oil will stay where it is needed quite well, unlike a lathe where it is flung all over the operator and the wall. I wouldn't assume that just because the cut is intermittent, the tip doesn't get hot. I suspect that the small volume of metal right at the cutting edge can get hot pretty quickly, and of course if it reaches the transition temperature of the material it will go soft. It is noticeable if you experiment a bit that there is not a lot of difference between the maximum cutting speed that will give good life, and the speed where the tip fails quite suddenly. The chips on my machines quite often are coming off smoking, so things do get hot down in that microscopic region by the edge. If you look at the pics I posted the other day you will see evidence of soluble oil being used. regards John ------- Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 04:05:50 -0000 From: "lkasdorf" Subject: Re: do you ever lube the cutter when shaping? Funny thing- I have been putzing around with drill bits and allen wrenches for cutters while waiting for the order I placed for tool steel blanks to arrive. I'm out in the shop tonight lubing the thing up, which has suddenly gotten stiff on me. While manually running the ram through its stroke, I come across an old 1/4" tool steel cutter laying in the chip tray!! Overjoyed, (funny how I can get overjoyed at the discovery of a scrap of metal), I clean it up and touch up the edge. I mounted it directly into the lantern, with a spacer to take up the slack. I installed a chunk of mild steel in the vise and as soon as it started cutting, I saw how these machines are supposed to work! I put some motor oil on the steel, and let it cruise along, taking very small bites. The result was just beautiful. I trued up a block of aluminum. Again, lovely results. So, I finally have this thing usable. I did notice when cutting the steel, which had a pool of oil on the surface, little smoke trails following the chips, even though I'm running at the lowest speed. So, I'm in business now. Thanks, all. Lynn Kasdorf ------- Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 02:35:58 -0000 From: "lkasdorf" Subject: what is source of poor surfacing? I figured I'd give my Atlas 7B a bit of a challenge, to see how useful these machines are. I took a 6" section of 4" angle iron and clamped it in the vise. I decided that I wanted to try to make an angle plate by first surfacing on side, then clamping that side to the vertical table and surfacing the other side. I did a roughing cut across the stock, then came back with a shallow finishing cut. When it got near the right edge of the piece, it developed this pattern of uneveness. It looks like the cutter digs in at the start, then rises up for 1/2" then eases back down into the work for the rest of the stroke. This litte pattern only happens on the rightmost 1" or so. I was seeing this sort of thing before, so I took off the clapper, cleaned well. I cleaned and honed the taper pin. I carefully honed the back side of the clapper to remove some little bumps, burrs. reassembled and relubed. The clapper has absolutely no side play and swings up and back freely, with a satisfying thwack. what other sources of uneven cuts are there? I remember seeing some- thing like this in a piece of aluminum when I first got the machine. I wonder if a section of the table travel is somehow screwed up? ------- Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2003 23:27:47 -0500 From: Doug Chartier Subject: Re: what is source of poor surfacing? A Guess: Deflection of the work piece. If you are holding the angle by one of the legs, the further you get away from the vise the more unsupported the work area. Try putting some support under the extended leg - a small machine jack, some blocks - something that will prevent that leg from being pushed down. A hold down probably will not be necessary, but solid support underneath will be. If you are holding the entire work area and not just one of the legs, check the work piece for squareness. It may be that the edge that is giving you the problems is slightly out of alignment with the vise face. Doug ------- Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 04:51:24 -0000 From: "dreilanderecht" Subject: Re: what is source of poor surfacing? My Guess is that Doug is probably right here, the usual cause of this sort of patterning is deflection somewhere, as indeed you must have suspected, since checking out the clapper box is a good start. Sometimes a slightly harder spot such as a chilled area in a casting, or a slag inclusion in rolled stock can set this sort of thing off, and sometimes you can actually see a series of waves following the edge that is causing the deflection. The same sort of thing can happen in lathes, especially when there is an interrupted cut. I'm not sure that angle iron is ideal for holding in the vice like this, since the faces are not usually actually parallel, eg the arms of the angle are usually tapered. If you have sufficient side travel available, it might pay to make some of the holes you will want in the angle plate and then bolt it to the side of the table. Provided the table is true, that should give you a good right angle plus better support, plus your cut is in the long direction. Of course, as discussed recently you may not be able to get enough cut with the job to one side of the table, even with a tool arranged to be out to the side in the needed direction. regards John ------- Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 12:14:21 +0000 From: mariol.vitalex~xxatt.net Subject: Re: what is source of poor surfacing? I would agree with Doug and John... The freestanding leg needs to be supported, and inconsistancies in the material could initiate the wavy condition. If supporting the horizontal leg does not help the situation, I'm wondering if there could be some other source of "slop". You might want to check to make sure the gibs on the ram are adjusted properly. With the ram extended out to about where the cut starts, put an indicator on the top side and pry upward (CAREFULLY with a wooden pry bar) on the front end of the ram. To be honest, I don't know how much movement you should expect, but with the ram extended only a small part of its stroke, it shouldn't be very much. Let us know how you make out. Mario ------- Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 15:09:06 -0500 From: Doug Chartier Subject: Re: Re: what is source of poor surfacing? If the work piece is a piece of 4x6 angle - commercial structural steal - that stuff may have all sorts of hard spots and soft spots. If it has been welded that changes it even more - welded and cooled with water, forget it. If it's been cut with a torch and cooled with water, it will tear up cutting tools. It's kind of the dregs of available steel stuff. It's great for what it was made for - holding up buildings, bridges, making heavy duty trailer hitches, welding etc, but for machining it isn't very good. I made an angle plate from a piece of the same stuff. 4x6 by a half inch thick. It was a real bear to work with, beautiful finish for an inch or so then the cutter (milling cutter) would dig in and leave all sorts of tracks. The face mill (5 carbide inserts) would spin nicely, leave a nice finish, and then hit a hard spot. The cut depth would change, the cutters would clatter, and things would go south. I finally got an angle plate with slots, but it couldn't be used for anything that needed great accuracy, and I probably could have bought a good one for the cost of the inserts I broke. Besides all that, a cast iron plate is probably more rigid too. Doug in Houston ------- Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 21:06:31 -0000 From: "dreilanderecht" Subject: Re: what is source of poor surfacing? The hard spots in a piece of rolled steel can contain forms of carbide. This means that they can be as hard as a carbide cutter, and certainly can be harder than ordinary HSS. So any small machine tool is going to have trouble. Grinding would actually be the way to get a good finish on this sort of stuff. The same applies to chilled spots on castings, and I once had a problem turning a crankshaft for a Stuart Double Ten. The blank as supplied by Stuart was made by welding two of the single throw blanks for a 10 V together end to end...Not sure what welding technique they used, but on mine it produced a hard area that I was simply unable to turn to a good finish. This included using carbide tooling, which went blunt very quickly. Of course, the weld was right in the middle of where the centre main bearing was to be, so a good finish was vital. Again, a toolpost grinder would have done the job, but I didn't have one, so instead I made a new crankshaft from solid, from a piece of free cutting mild steel. It started at around three pounds and finished at three ounces, since I started with round stock, made it square for ease of marking out and then used the shaper to carve away as much as possible, so that I ended up with a square crankshaft. Then used a little vertical milling attachment on the lathe to rough out between centres, and then turned it in the lathe to finish. Overall, you should be able to work to quite good accuracy even with a relatively small shaper. Maybe not to quite the standard acheivable with a good big horizontal mill, but I can make parallels that are parallel as far as I can tell with an ordinary micrometer, eg well under a thou difference over a six inch length. regards John ------- Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2003 02:33:56 -0000 From: "al_messer" Subject: Re: what is source of poor surfacing? I would say that it is caused by some sort of harmonic vibration. I've had it as well, Try changing the speed of the stroke or the rate of feed or depth of cut. I suppose it's like chatter in a lathe or milling machine. Al Messer ------- Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 20:09:18 -0400 From: "Quale, Robert" Subject: Surface finish I do a lot of work on cold roll. My surface finish is rough. How can I tell if I'm getting the best finish possible. How smooth should it be? Any help would be great! Bob ------- Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 21:30:13 -0500 From: jrw Subject: Re: Surface finish Bob: What type of tool bits are you using? HSS or Carbide? Either one will require a sharp cutting edge for the CRS and work better with a fair amount of top rake so the material being removed is sheared off and not plowed off. The carbide insert tools have a well defined window of operation to make a good cut. Check the insert vendors for the data. A good sulphurized/chlorinated cutting oil helps. CRS is not known for easy machining. If you want or require very good surfaces move to 'leaded' steels. JRW ------- Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 02:33:35 -0000 From: "al_messer" Subject: Re: Surface finish Do you use he same tool bit for roughing and finishing? A tool bit with a bit wider cutting edge used on the finishing cut with a good dose of cutting oil usually works well for me. Al Messer ------- Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 00:40:36 -0400 From: "Quale, Robert" Subject: RE: Surface finish What type of leaded steel do you suggest? also when you say you use a lot of rake is it back rake or side rake? and how much? I make my own cutters and use T-15. I have been very happy with T-15 on my lathe and mill. Now if I can get good results with cold roll I'll be a happy guy. Bob ------- Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 08:57:15 -0500 From: jrw Subject: Re: Surface finish Bob: One of the many steels with lead added is by Ryerson. There is a cold drawn screw stock , Ledloy 300, an alloy material called Rycut 41L40. They contain 0.15 to 0.35 % lead. In recent years there has been a push to remove lead from any product and availability may be a problem. I was referring to the top rake on the tool bit and the large radius on the nose, as mentioned by others, can be helpful. The tool must be sharp. JRW ------- Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 18:45:06 EDT From: n8as1x~xxaol.com Subject: Re: Surface finish older armstrong /williams holders had 12 to 20 deg. back rake built in .....the more side rake u use ,the less back rake needed...can put so much side rake on ,the carriage will self feed!...try 16 deg.back & 10 deg.side,more side if needed.......if u have horizontal tool holders, u can use continually deepening angling chip breaker ground in just behind cutting edge to produce both rakes best wishes docn8as ------- Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 00:42:23 +0000 From: mariol.vitalex~xxatt.net Subject: Re: Surface finish n8: I'm sure, if I saw it, I would understand what you mean, but from your description..."continually deepenging angling chip breaker"... I'm not sure what you mean. Got any pictures? mario ------- Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 00:42:26 EDT From: n8as1x~xxaol.com Subject: Re: Surface finish yeah , it is difficult w/out a pic & i am too ignorant to know how to post them........if we have to, anSSAE will get u some sketches........lets try again......for illustration only ,since we are concerned w/ NON carbide bits,lets take the rt hand brazed carbide "a " pattern bit...(knife bit, 0 lead)..if u grind a groove from left to right directly behind the front cutting edge ,leaving no land, but the front edge of groove being the cutting edge ,u will then have back rake ,amount depending on depth/width of groove......now if groove gets deeper,the further it goes to the right, u will have SIDE rake..since u are cutting to left. it helps to have someone grind facing, corner , turning ,& shovel nose bits to copy from best wishes docn8as ------- Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 04:01:06 -0000 From: "lkasdorf" Subject: what are main sources of chatter? On my Atlas 7B, I'm having a hard time getting chatter-free cuts, especially in steel. What kind of steel? I dunno- scrap from the steel fabricators. The problem is NOT a hard spot in the material. What happens is I am getting chatter in my cuts sometimes. I get a chatter pattern on one end of a piece, and not on the other, then flip the piece end for end and repeat the cut, and the chatter pattern is now created at the smooth end. It seems to be a looseness somewhere in the machine. On a 6" cut, it is chattery toward the start of the cut, then it settles down. I'm using HSS 1/4" blanks. For roughing, I grind it to a vee (about 90 degee, I'd guess), then slightly flatten the tip of the vee. The grind angle is something like 5 degrees. I have cleaned my clapper and it has now the perfect feel, I think. Zero play, but freely falls back. I tightened gibs for the Y axis on the clapper head. I tightened the ram gibs on the left side of the ram. Cutting oil, or no, it doesn't seem to matter. I even get chatter on aluminum sometimes. Do I need to carefully grind my cutter like the various diagrams I've seen? What other sources of chatter are there? This thing is really starting to cheese me off. Ideas? ------- Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 06:45:29 -0000 From: "dreilanderecht" Subject: Re: what are main sources of chatter? There could be lots of reasons, you probably won't know for sure until you cure it. So I am not going to be dogmatic... When you say you are using quarter inch toolsteel blanks, does this mean that you are putting the toolsteel in the toolpost with enough extension to reach out past the clapper box? That usually means quite a long extension. Also the cutting load is on the front edge. If you imagine the toolsteel blank bending under the cutting load, this is going to make the cut deeper. You can reduce this tendency by making a tool from a big lump of mild steel bar with a small piece of toolsteel brazed to the end. The piece can be brazed into a hole set towards the back of the bar, which can even be machined with an offset so that the edge of the tool ends up level with or even behind the surface of the clapper box. This means that any deflection under load will not be tending to take the tool deeper. The same thing is achieved by using good beefy tool holders, as well as them permitting the use of small pieces of toolsteel. Another thing you don't mention is checking the cross slide gibs. My Ammco doesn't have locknuts on these, so they can work loose. Any play anywhere can potentially translate into chatter, not always in a manner that you would expect. The start of a cut is always a likely place for chatter effects to show up since there will be a sudden change in loading as the cut starts. Are you making sure that the table stay does not have any free travel? I generally set the table to height, set the stay down, and then crank the height down to ensure the stay is slightly loaded. This might not be the ideal thing to do if the cross slide had play, but then, if it did the correct thing to do would be to fix that problem too. With the Ammco and the big Alba, I always lock the vertical gib after adjusting...for some reason I don't seem to do this on the smaller Alba. Hmmm, must look at it and see if I can figure out why. Finally, too wide a cutting edge for the particular machine will tend to chatter. This is more likely to be a problem with slotting cutters. (Keyway cutters) Same problem as parting off in small lathes, eg if the tool is too wide it overloads the machine and causes chattter, and if it is too narrow it is not stable in the sideways direction and will waver or break, especially if it is made too long to get a deep slot. But that is not likely to be your problem, unless you have a flat on the end of the tool that is much too wide. A little flat is good, but it does not need to be more than just a little wider than the amount you are feeding per stroke. Anyway, that will give you a little more to be going on with! Let us know how you get on regards John ------- Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 12:20:44 +0000 From: mariol.vitalex~xxatt.net Subject: Re: what are main sources of chatter? You didn't mention how you were holding the material, but if in a vise, you might check to see that the vice jaws are parallel. Clamp up the work in the vice, then, with a solid metallic object (like the blunt end of a center punch) tap the work moving from one end to the other and listen for a change in pitch. Mario ------- Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 14:43:43 -0000 From: "lkasdorf" Subject: Re: what are main sources of chatter? I forgot to mention how I am holding the tool. I simply mount the cutter directly in the lantern, at the rear. I have a tool holder that I stick in the slot that presses against the tool blank and takes up the space (the tightening bolt is too short to secure a 1/4" blank by itself). I use the minimal amount of extension possible on the bit. And the cutting surface is back as far as possible- in fact farther than if I were using a tool holder. BTW, I am not using the tool holder I have because it holds the tool at an angle, rather than perpendicular to the work. I've not checked the play in the cross slide gibs. I agree that if there is slop there, it would produce chatter. I do like the idea of lowering the table slightly after tightening the support foot. I'll try that- it should add some rigidity. I am using the original vise, and the jaws seem quite parallel and free of slop. I assume that these Atlas shapers are capable of doing good work in mild steel??? Lynn Kasdorf ------- Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 20:09:41 -0000 From: "dreilanderecht" Subject: Re: what are main sources of chatter? I have used tools held in the holder directly like that, but usually larger blanks. Could be worth going up to 3/8 square if you have a bit. It is true that a toolholder will move the cutting edge furher forward, but the extra stiffness seems to more than make up for this. Of course, the lathe ones with the built in rake are even worse from this point of view, although I use some with my Alba 1a with good results. You have to sharpen the bit so as to take off most of the extra rake. I don't know what you have in the wau of heating equipment, but you can braze an HSS bit into a bar of mild steel with a fairly small propane torch, you don't need oxy acetylene. When I say braze, silver solder will be better with the lower temperature, ezyflo for instance. The heat will not temper the HSS. A broken centre drill makes a good toolbit. The mild steel bar should be as big as will reasonably fit the toolpost. I can't speak from personal experience about the Atlas, but shapers in general are capable of an excellent surface finish, even on tricky materials. I just made some main bearings for my launch engine from some excellent but very tough bronze. All the shaper work gave me a lovely finish, but when it came to line boring them I simply could not consistently get a good finish. In the end, I bored them oversize and lined them with whitemetal. ------- Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 21:19:40 -0000 From: "mattinker" Subject: keyways I am an absolute beginer as far as shapers are concerned. Eagerly awaiting the arrivail of my Elliot 10M that I bought last week. I have read everything that I could find on the web and I think I have a pretty good idea about beginning safely. I want to find out how to make keyways on shafts, do you have to drill oversize holes at the end of the keyway to allow the tool to drop in and on the other end of the stroke cut the shaveing and release the tool? Thanks, Matthew ------- Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 23:06:25 -0000 From: "dreilanderecht" Subject: Re: keyways Yes, it is vital to provide a hole at the end of a keyway. This does not need to be much bigger than the width of the keyway, and just a little deeper. If you don't have one the chip will pack at the end and you will break the tool. Even with one, you must set the stroke very carefully, it should just reach the middle of the hole, and you should be careful that you don't let chip build up in there. Slot tools, like parting tools, love to chatter. My experience is that you want very little or no top rake, and the tool does not want to be too wide for the machine. For a 10M, 1/8' wide should certainly be Ok, you might be able to go up to 3/16' or so. The 10M is a good machine, it is the later, developed version of the Alba 1a which is one of the machines I have. Big enough to do some real work. My general advice would be to start out using the slower speeds and only go faster once you are happy with the way things are going. Pull the machine over by hand (or use a creep speed on a big machine) to ensure that everything clears at all positions. Don't ever be tempted to brush the chips away by hand while the machine is going, use a stiff brush. Anyway, I am sure we all wish you many hours of pleasure with your new toy! regards John ------- Date: Tue, 03 Jun 2003 21:25:05 -0000 From: "dreilanderecht" Subject: Re: square holes [NOTE TO FILE: Earlier discussion of making square holes with a shaper all had non-shaper answers and those messages can be found in the "Broaching" text file.] For a small square hole it is probably not worth the trouble of setting the machine up when you can do the job quite quickly with a file. For a larger hole, it would become worthwhile. The problem is that you have to use a tool that will reach forward through the hole. This will have to either be something fancy with a cutting edge and releif on each corner, or else you will have to plan on doing half the hole with the tool one way up, and then inverting it for the other half. While doing the bottom half, you can let the clapper swing but if you are cutting on the top of the hole you would have to lock it. (Or invert the job) Then there is the problem that you can't see what is happening very well, since the tool is entering the job on the far side. The machine and the tool holder itself will tend to obscure the view. I would give it a try for a square hole that was say over an inch or so. But for a smaller one, I think the file and chisel has a lot to be said for it. I have done a curved hole, the slot for a steam engine expansion link. (Stevensons link motion) This is about five inches long, about 3/8 wide, and the radius is about 7.5 inches. The radius was determined by a special pivoted table added to the top with a hinge, and guided by an angled bar across the vertical slideways on the shaper body. The tool was a piece of round tool steel just long enough to go through the hole. The ends of the slot were to be rounded, not square. It was cut in gauge plate, two pieces about 3/8 thick, and as mentioned above, the clapper was only locked for the inverted cut on the top of the slot. I've also done keyways, and there is a description in the files area of a good approach for this. Back on the square holes, there is also a technique that uses a special drill bit that is sort of triangular, guided by a hardened plate with a square hole in it. The drill bit has to be able to move relative to the axis of the machine, ther is some kind of arrangement to acccomodate this. I haven't tride this, but ther was someone in our club talking about this the other day. I think you drill a round hole first. That method would of course lend itself to a blind hole, which the shaper wouldn't. I also have a device that will do a square hole in wood, effectively a square chisel that attaches to the quill and has a normal bit down the centre. The sharp corners force the wood into the normal bit which carries it away. regards John ------- Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2003 14:27:49 -0000 From: "tew138" Subject: Depth of Cut and Tightness of Gibs Hi Everyone: I'm making a bracket out of Aluminum and have some beginner questions on the operation of my early Atlas shaper. For roughing what depth of cut is reasonable for a bench-top machine? I have the belt set on the 2nd fastest speed (~75 fpm?) and I'm advancing the toolpost about .015/stroke. Then I read in the one of the tutorials that .015 is a finishing cut. I've tried advancing .030 but the machine started making some more noise. Since this shaper is over 50 years old I didn't want to push it too much. I saw the file Art posted and those depth of cuts must be for REAL shaper. Also how tight should the gibs on the tool post slide be? It seems like it would be too loose if I could grab the tool post and slide it up and down easily. I guess I was thinking it should be tight enough so the tool post does not slide down by its own weight (taking up the backlash). I can see why on the later models Atlas added a 4th gib screw. With 3 it seems like it is difficult get consistant tightness as you advance the tool post (at least on a worn machine). Thanks, Tom ------- Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2003 16:35:38 EDT From: n8as1x~xxaol.com Subject: Re: Depth of Cut and Tightness of Gibs > For roughing what depth of cut is reasonable for a bench-top > machine? I have the belt set on the 2nd fa my atlas loafs along in steel w/ a .050 cut,.005 feed ...carefully set up, it will make a decent rough cut of .100, have not tried any heavier, have not cut any alum. but on my lathes, i cut at 2-3x steel, sometimes more best wishes docn8as ------- Date: Sun, 22 Jun 2003 11:24:59 -0000 From: "Joe Guidry" Subject: Re: Generating Gears with a Shaper In Metal_Shapersx~xxyahoogroups.com, "jake101252" wrote: > Has anyone made an involute gear generator for use on a shaper? If > so, I have a couple of questions regarding this. Thanks Jake, look in the photo section, under Joe G. or under gear, there are some pic's of a gear that I cut on my shaper for an Atlas lathe, Joe. ------- Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2003 12:20:04 EDT From: anthrhodesx~xxaol.com Subject: Re: Generating Gears with a Shaper Joe: While your gear cutting efforts on the shaper using a form cutter are well worth studying Jake was asking about gear cutting using the generating process. The best known generating method is hobbing but "gear shaping" and "gear planing" are also generating processes. There was an article in Australian Model Engineering, Issue #101 March/April 2002, on a conversion of a shaper for gear generating. Technically this conversion is a "gear planer" because it uses a single tooth cutter instead of a gear-form cutter but it will correctly generate the correct tooth form for all tooth counts using a single cutter for any particular DP or module. Jake, have you seen this article? Anthony Berkeley, Calif. ------- Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2003 01:37:09 -0000 From: "Frank Black" Subject: Re: Generating Gears with a Shaper Metal web news has an article on making a form tool cutter http://www.metalwebnews.com/howto/gear/gear1.html . It's for cutting an involute form on a disk to be used in a mill. But what if the theory was used to create a pattern to grind a toolbit? After all a mill is just a radial shaper. I know it's been done before, Lindsay has a book on it (now where did that catalog go...) Sorry if I sound a bit spacey tonight, but I'll need to cut some gears in the near future and it's got me thinking out loud. BTW: www.lindsaybks.com is Lindsays websight. If you don't currently get their catalog, you should. It's full of what my 4y old nephew would call "neat s**t" (I didn't teach him that...) Have fun Jeff ------- Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2003 01:53:56 -0000 From: "Don Hill" Subject: Re: Generating Gears with a Shaper Model Engineer Magazine, if you can find it, 14 September 1950, pages 401 to 404, shows exactly what you are looking for. Article is called 'Gear Cutting With the Shaper' and details the equipment required. Good Luck! Don Hill ------- Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2003 10:17:54 -0000 From: "dreilanderecht" Subject: Re: Generating Gears with a Shaper > Model Engineer Magazine, if you can find it, 14 September 1950, > pages 401 to 404, Well I dunno if the original asker has found it but I have had a look at my copy. For those not having one, the technique uses a small dividing head that mounts on the machine table. The head has a mandrel to mount the gear blank towards the front, and a dividing gear towards the back. The dividing gear is a 120 tooth gear or any other convenient gear that comes to hand. (Must of course be an integral multiple of what you want!) Behind it is a drum of the size of the pitch circle of the gear to be cut, less an allowance for the wire size. The detent of the dividing gear is attached to this drum. A tensioned wire passes around the drum and is fastened at both ends to brackets attached to the fixed part of the machine. The tool in the shaper is ground to the right pressure angle with a suitable flat on the end. So it is one tooth of a rack. So as the shaper is traversed across the cut, the wheel to be cut is rotated such that the tool cuts a tooth shape. In actuality, this will be a series of small flats, but this will be negligible unless you are cutting a wheel with far too few teeth to be practical. Also the finer the feed of the machine the more flats there will be, and I suspect for most machines they will hardly be detectable. The drum then stays in the same place relative to the wire while the detent is moved to the next appropriate tooth to divide the wheel wanted The writer of the article claims this to be more accurate than ordinary gear cutters like the ones I used. While in principle it is better, I doubt that there is much in it in practice. It is true that ordinary gear cutters are a compromise, they are only correct for one pitch near the middle of the range, but are worked out such that the actual errors at each end of the range are less than the likely errors due to the machines used. But the main attraction of the method as described in the ME is that you don't need a set of gear cutters, which in my case cost my father the equivalent of about USD 150 about twenty years ago. That is a lot more than one stick of quarter inch HSS. The Ammco dividing attachment could easily be adapted for this technique. I think the technique could be adapted for helical gears too, which would call for angling the dividing attachment and maybe providing guides to keep the wire wrapping onto the drum properly. It does not lend itself to doing awkward numbers with a worm dividing attachment, but you could get around that by making a dividing plate for the actual number of teeth required for each strange number needed. regards John ------- Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2003 12:39:04 EDT From: anthrhodesx~xxaol.com Subject: Re: Generating Gears with a Shaper I looked up this article. It is, in fact, a generating method of gear cutting using a conventional shaper. Using the wires or straps for rotation of the work piece is a less than ideal solution but studying the proposal should give sufficient understanding of the concept to come up with a modified version of the proposed mechanism. Anthony Berkeley, Calif. ------- Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2003 07:58:38 -0000 From: "dreilanderecht" Subject: Re: Generating Gears with a Shaper The drawing with the article definitely says that it is the diameter of the pitch circle of the gear to be cut, less the allowance which as you say is half the wire diameter. Thinking about it, the pitch circle is the line along which the gear would effectively interact with the other gear or a rack. Eg if we were replacing the gears with smooth friction wheels, they would be the size of the pitch circle. So the effect of the wire is to move the blank as if it were in mesh with a rack, and the single tooth cutter acts as one tooth of the rack, so planes out the space needed by that tooth. in the process, the flanks will be given the exact involute curve needed for that size of tooth on that diameter of wheel. If we were generating the shape by the geometrical operation of unwinding a wire and tracing the curve that a point on the wire passes through, the correct circle would be the base circle. So if we wrap a string around a coffee tin and put a pencil through a loop on the end, it will trace the correct shape for a tooth. But that would be a hard way to actually cut the curve. The method described will actually cut the same type of curve. Incidently he does show the wire being fastened to the pitch circle disk, which would prevent it slipping. That would spoil the blank if it happened. regards John ------- Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2003 20:35:51 +1200 From: Tom Subject: Re: Re: Generating Gears with a Shaper Gould & Eberhardt who once made available such a setup, make the point as having 2 tapes wrapped around a disc of a diameter matching that of the "base" circle of the gear to be cut. Their setup was predisposed toward finishing gears that had been gashed. The tool set at a height equal to the middle of the tapes. The method is described as the Describing-Generating Process. Tom ------- Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2003 00:23:22 -0000 From: "dreilanderecht" Subject: Re: Generating Gears with a Shaper Well, after more thinking...Not withstanding Gould and Eberhardt, I still think that the pitch circle is the one that should be used. This is because the pitch circle of a gear should act as if it is in nonslip frictional contact with the pitch line of a rack. The pitch line of a rack will normally be halfway up the tooth. It is possible to make a gear that has the pitch circle at the base of the teeth, but then it must run with another gear that has the pitch circle at the top of the teeth, and I don't think that would be a common thing to do. Although they do some interesting things in clocks :) For any method there would be a benefit in pregashing the teeth with a cheaper cutter, save wear and tear on the good one. Although I didn't bother with my 20 dp ones the other day, but the cast iron is very easy to cut in one pass anyway. regards John ------- Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2003 02:49:34 -0000 From: "al_messer" Subject: Re: Generating Gears with a Shaper A fellow on another list simply ground a tool bit to match the shape of the desired gear tooth and shaped them with the down-feed using an index head mounted on the shaper box bed to locate the teeth in the gear blank. Al Messer ------- Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2003 00:25:09 -0000 From: "stevenson_engineers" Subject: Shaper cut gears. [PART OF THE NOV 2003 DISCUSSION, WHICH IS ON THE SAME TOPIC] OK I have had chance to redo the second article in the Shaper Cut gears saga. This has been proof read against the original article and all is present and correct. I have taken the opportunity to redo the original first article by Base Circle and posted that as well. Both files are in pdf format in the files section of the shaper pix group at:- http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Metal_Shapers_Pix/ Look for Shaper cut gears, article l and article ll John S. ------- Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2003 06:28:46 -0000 From: "dreilanderecht" Subject: Re: gears on the shaper [PART OF THE NOV 2003 DISCUSSION, WHICH IS ON THE SAME TOPIC] "al_messer" Please pardon my ignorance, but aren't you guys mostly talking > about "production line methods" for "mass producin" gears? It seems > to this ignorant old tinkerer that if you grind a tool bit to match > the shape and size of a gear tooth, turn your blank to the same O.D. > as the one you want to copy, mount on an indexing mandrel, rough it > out with a parting tool, then you should be able to make a "one off" > that will match the original. After the machine work is done, give > it a touch-up with a file if need be. Just look at the methods used by > Maudsley and his contemporaries to accomplish what they did. Al Messer Hi Al: I think the method under discussion falls somewhere in between. With home equipment, I don't think we are going to get gears that match the better commercial standards. On the other hand, we can probably do better than grinding a cutter by eye. Not that I would knock that, I have repaired a few items over the year with that sort of approach. It does require however that we have a gear of the size we want to cut, which may not be the case. The generating method under discussion does not actually require an existing gear, even though the photo shows one being used for the dividing. The dividing could also be done by a disk with the right number of holes drilled in it. The better we can make our gear, the less noise it will make and the longer it will last, all else being equal. So it is worth putting some effort into improving the quality, depending on the application. Some equipment did use foundry cast gears, which are perfectly OK for some jobs. The balance is always going to have to be up to the individual, and will depend on factors like the performance or accuracy needed from the gears, the number required, and so on. The generating method does require us to make a drum the right size for the gear, eg a new drum for every different size of gear, plus driling it with dividing holes. This is a big commitment for say five different gears for one job. On the other hand, if the plan is to make a dozen or so replacement gears for Ammco shapers, the initial investment of time and effort is amortised over more parts, which can perhaps be sold. If you need to be able to make a wide variety of gears then the standard gear cutter sets become attractive...provided you have some sort of mill to use them in. (I have a set for 20 DP which is handy for Myford change wheels.) I agree that it is well worth looking at the way the pioneers did things, they had the same problem as we sometimes have, eg a lack of the "proper" machine to do the job. regards John ------- NOTE TO FILE: Actually this discussion was also getting far too complicated for this mere mortal. Technocrats can read (much) more in the archives of Yahoo's Metal_Shapers group. A second huge, similar discussion started in late November 2003 under the thread Re: gears on the shaper (was Cutting gears on an Adept). Those less technically inclined (me included) can get the same feeling by going outside now and banging their heads against a large tree :-) ------- Date: Mon, 03 Nov 2003 18:08:36 -0000 From: "dreilanderecht" Subject: Re: best tool for a 45 degree "groove" in cast iron When cutting a dovetail, I try to avoid either face cutting as a form tool, eg both faces are generated by the tip of the tool. I would apply the same approach to this, so the tip of the tool should be a narrower angle than the V shape you are trying to cut. For a 45 degree angle you will need something like a 30 degree tool. You will also need to set the head over to the 45 degree angle. The clapper then needs to be set over too, but this needs a bit of thought...if you set it over too far, the tool will try to drag on the other face. So the clapper box angle should be such that the tool remains half way in the middle of the cut. So for this, around 20 degrees is about right. The clapper box sets around in the same direction as the head was tilted, but more, then the tool is set so that just the tip will cut. The tool should have a tiny radius stoned on the end. With all the strange angles, it is more critical than usual to check for clearances by turning over the machine by hand before powering up... regards John ------- Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2003 16:31:30 -0800 From: "larry g" Subject: Re: Re: New (to me) shaper arrived today > Geez, there just has to be some gears or pulleys laying around here > that "need" a keyway!!! :-) > Maybe that will be my first project, making a keyway cutter and > seeing how it goes! Just remember.. When cutting keyways, DISENGAGE THE TABLE FEED! Don't ask lg ------- NOTE TO FILE: Art posted this next after a very complex discussion started on internal slotting of a rather long object relative to normal keyway devices or our smaller shapers. Art is right, in the sense of the old truism: if all you have is a hammer, everything starts to look like a nail. ------- Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2003 17:58:58 -0000 From: "Art Volz" Subject: Rifling a Cannon Barrel & Internal Shaper Slotting...And..... ...the dangers of tunnel vision. Problem Statement: A 3/8-inch straight slot, cut internally the 24- inch length of an open ended 7-inch OD x 5-inch ID steel tube. Although Ray's Rocky could probably be set up with epoxied lengths of ching-chong hacksaw blades, the real question is have we concluded on a single process without considering other possibilities? Is the "design problem" "how to cut the slot with a shaper" or is it really "how to cut the slot"? From a "production design" aspect, I would say it should be the latter. If the 5-inch tube was a cannon tube of "Forty-one Forty and Fight" steel, or lead-butt whatever (DON'T use leaded for barrels!!!)--2 feet or 10 feet long--ordnance engineers would use a rifling machine, without twist, and cut a single groove with multiple cutting passes. Revolutionary American backwoods coon-skin capped gunsmiths grooved them infernal rifled smoke-sticks, that knocked the Hessians out of their pig-skin boots, with rifling machines made of virgin Pennsylvanian oak and wrought bog iron. My 1938 edition of Colonel Thomas J. Hayes' West Point text "Elements of Ordnance" has a section devoted to the basics of such rifling machines and how they are used to CUT LENGTHWISE INTERNAL GROOVES IN STEEL TUBES. (How I obtained that book is a story in itself...maybe a story for Christmas time when all else slows down...and the elves poop out from exhaustion. It contains shades of Exodus.) Doug, is this a real problem or just a theoretical one you came up with while otherwise unoccupied astride your ivory ceramic steed on a butt-cold morn? :-) If you have to do just a one-off, for the size piece of steel that you stated and with the stated slot dimensions, a Rube Goldberged jerry-rigged hydraulic log splitter (rented) with a home-brewed rifling tool holder and cutter could be readily contrived to cut your slot...and on the cheap. (Ray may even have one.) Nuthin' beats budget slottin'! "To slot or bust!" is my slogan. Art ------- Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2003 18:03:10 -0000 From: "john doe" Subject: Re: Internal slots cut with a shaper Years ago I was asked to cut a 3/4" keyway in a 3" bore by a local cement company, and the part was about 10" long! I did it on a small Hendy shaper I had at the time and just used a 1/2" tool and did it from both ends. Drill a hole in the center and then do one side and flip it end for end and start cutting the second side; when you get close start looking down the bore and eyeball the sucker in. Then I took a 3/4" new tool bit and sharpened the 15% end on it and pushed it through in the press. Well it took a few hours to do the job but the customer was happy and I got a good learning. If I remember right I charged them about $125 for the work, which was about half what I paid for the machine. Duffy ------- Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2003 22:11:21 -0600 From: "Ray Ethridge" Subject: Re: Re: Internal slots cut with a shaper Sounds like an interesting technique. I am assuming you pushed the 3/4 inch bit through with some kind of bushing keeping it in place, correct? Did you shim it up between passes like you would a broach? That sounds similar to a punch that a friend of mine uses to cut square holes, but he has to stop very frequently and remove the chip that is being formed. Ray Ethridge ------- Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2003 00:45:56 -0000 From: "John Odom" Subject: Slotting with the shaper Here in Chattanooga, during WWII at the Wheland Gun factory they made 155mm guns. The breech used an interupted thread. The thread interuptions were cut on a Rockford hydraulic shaper with an I-beam extension on which was mounted an indexing fixture and a lathe steady rest. The barrel was placed in this rig and indexed and the slots cut. Another similar shaper with index head, but without the LONG I-beam extention cut corresponding the slots in the breech plugs. I never saw the set up but a (now deceased) co-worker had photos and a breech-plug which I saw. John Odom ------- Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2003 18:59:12 -0800 From: "keith green" Subject: Re: Internal slots cut with a shaper I've done some big blind-bore slots on the machines (slotters) at work. You need some kind of relief in the back there. I missed your first post so I'm not sure what your part looks like. If the hole is blind you can groove it all around the bottom in the lathe, you can also offset it in the chuck so it runs out a whole lot and just turn a groove in one side. I've used Woodruff keyseat-type cutters to mill the relief in one spot if your hole is shallow enough for the cutter to reach. If it's the slot that's blind; use the milling cutter method above, drill a hole whose diameter = the slot width or mill a slot through from the outside. Without relief, your chips won't break but build up in the bottom of the cut until the tool breaks. 4130 or 4140 is tough stuff. Cutting speeds are in the 40 or 50 sfpm range. Cutting oil is a must. The chips will be long and stringy. This material in the annealed state uses the same cutting speeds and generates the same kind of chip but with lower cutting forces generated. As to the width of the cutter, you probably already know the maximum width your machine will cut without trouble so go with that and shift it sideways to get near the size. I usually set up and center with the finish-size tool (1¼ right?). Maybe take a few strokes with it so you see the boundaries of the slot when roughing. Replace the big tool with your little comfortable one and slot down almost to your finished depth (leave 0.005 or so), then shift to one side and repeat until you're close to the finished width (leave 0.05 to 0.1 a side or so). On the last depthing pass, go right to finished depth and feed sideways across the slot to make a smooth bottom. Switch to your 1¼ tool and finish it. To make it easier to measure your depth, I use the following formula to calculate the distance from the bottom of your finished slot to the bore wall opposite (cross-bore measurement): M = E squared divided by 4 x the bore diameter where M is the difference between the arc of the bore across the width of your cut and the bottom (flat) part of your slot and E is the width of your slot. When you get this little "M" dimension, subtract it from your bore + slot depth result. This will give you your cross-bore dimension. This equation can be found with a clear explanation in the Machinery's Handbook under "keyseating", "key depth" or something along those lines. Good luck. ------- Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2003 21:56:29 -0500 From: Dan Subject: Re: Rifling a Cannon Barrel & Internal Shaper Slotting...And..... Stated problem: cutting an internal slot (keyway) in a 22 inch long tube with 5 inch internal diameter using a shaper. ( Is this correct?) My comments and suggestion : First, it is obvious that the end of the tube must be at least 22 inches away from the ram in order to make a one stroke cut. This requires a tool holder that length plus a little extra for tool bit entrance and exit. The problem of rigidity arises quickly (Doesn't the rigidity decrease as per the cube of the length? Someone tell me, please.) An Unknown: nothing has been said about the correctness of the inside of the tube. Assuming that it is somewhat round and somewhat straight, here is a suggestion of how to approach this. 1) Take a piece of heavy angle iron, 5 or so inch legs and about 6 feet long. Weld mounting ears on one end, and a leg on the other. Bolt the ears to the shaper table and the leg supports the other end. The corner of the angle iron would point straight down so that the tube (work) would be lain on it, and clamped. 2)Turn a piece of metal 5 inches, or whatever so that it just passes freely through the tube. This part will hold and guide the cutting bit. 3) Drill and broach a hole for the cutting bit. Put a set screw above it to adjust the stick out of the bit and another screw at a right angle to lock it, if needed. Cut a place in front of the tool bit for chip clearance. 4) Weld a pipe a little smaller than 5 inches to this piece (4 perhaps). Make this pipe about 26 or 28 inches long. make a place at the other end of the pipe to attach to the ram. It will probably have to hang a little lower that the ram to go into the angle iron without the ram hitting the angle iron. 5) Adjust the ram for full stroke (24 in this case). Put the ram all the way back. 6) Lay the work on the angle iron and slide it until the 5 inch guide piece is starting into the work. Adjust the tool holder and vertical feed, and table so that the pipe (tool holder) will be pushing straight and level behind the guide piece and be sure that the work is in a straight line with the action of the ram. Clamp and tighten. 7) By know the TPI on your set screw, you should be able to advance the tool bit about as much as you want. Start with it level with the surface of the guide, and then advance it just enough to take a very light cut. 8) Start the ram and let it push the tool through. The guide should only come partially out of the bore of the work on each end. It must come out enough when retracted to access the set screw so as to advance the bit for the next stroke. 9) Advance the tool bit out on each stroke until the cut is complete. Problems: 1) The Accuracy of the cut will depend on the accuracy of the bore in the work and not the rigidity of the machine. Where ever the bore is inaccurate the cut will be. 2) Chip build up may clog the cut requiring light cuts and perhaps stopping to unclog; thus slowing things down. 3) The machine has to be stopped at each stroke to adjust the bit. Major slow down. Unless a mechanism would be devised to advance the bit automatically on each stroke. 4) Torsion or twisting may be a problem. If the tool bit is not on a 90 degree angle with the line of travel , or if it cuts better on one side than the other, it may tend to cut a spiral. A pipe for the tool holder will resist twisting better than a solid of the same weight and so I would recommend pipe. What this method is really, is a cross between a boring bar and a broach. You essentially have a one edge broach. I made a little sketch, but your files are full and I don't think attachments are allowed. So I don't know what to do with it. ( I will probably get plenty of suggestions, however, of what to do with it.) Dan ------- Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2003 07:30:37 -0600 From: "Ray Ethridge" Subject: Re: Re: Internal slots cut with a shaper >>> I think I would use bar about 48" long with the tool inserted midway and the outboard end supported by a bushing. I would rough out the slot by raising the table, then bring it to width with slight lateral travel. Carl <<< Carl, I think that would be a great mod to the operation. That way you would not need such a massive tool bar. And that is a really good plan about moving the table around. I had not thought if that. Still on my shaper you would need a table extension, but it would now have to be free hanging instead of supported by an external stand, unless you want to change the height of the stand corresponding to the height change on the table. That could be done though, especially with a stand built around an acme threaded rod like I was talking about. Ray Ethridge ------- Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2003 17:22:47 -0000 From: "xeno3579" Subject: Re: Internal slots cut with a shaper Hi there: The longer bar and outboard bushing is a good idea. However (I hope you don't feel insulted Carl), just because a shaper has a table that can be moved up and down does not mean that that is the only way to incrementally feed the cutting tool. Would you consider using (on the ram) a bar that is a (very) close fit in the bore, like a boring bar, and have the tool set with an adjusting screw that can poke the tool up in small increments. Now the bore itself supports the boring bar (lots of lubrication and frequent clearing) and the only force is on the cutting tool. Otherwise is this a job for a horizontal boring mill, used in the same manner as a lathe would be used to cut a keyway? Mb-A ------- Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2003 12:30:22 -0500 From: "Carl Corbeau" Subject: Re: Re: Internal slots cut with a shaper I don't feel insulted at all, the method has great merit. Just had to come up with a new idea. This should read... Your method has great merit Carl ------- Date: Fri, 07 Nov 2003 03:38:26 -0000 From: "Peter Verbree" Subject: Miter Gears on a shaper?? As many of you now know I am starting to restore a circa 1870 P&W planer. The cross rail on this machine is raised and lowered by two big screws, driven by two sets of miter gears. They are missing. With the information I have gotten so far they appear to be 10 dp 30 teeth. I can purchase stock gears for about $40.00 each (need 4) Sooo.... I was wondering...do you guys think that they could be made on my shaper? I have a dividing head, and I think that matching the tooth shape should not be too much of a chore but are there any special procedures for miter gears? Is this practical? any comments? Cheers Pete ------- Date: Fri, 07 Nov 2003 06:00:18 -0000 From: "dreilanderecht" Subject: Re: Miter Gears on a shaper?? While I am sure that you could make workable gears on a shaper, I wonder if it would actually be worth the trouble. This is because a miter gear needs two passes to cut it. One side of the gap is cut on one pass, and the other on the other pass...this is how you can manage to cut teeth that are the correct width, eg narrow at one end and wider at the other. The involute curve will of course only be correct in one place along the tooth, but that doesn't seem to matter much in practice. Also these gears on a planer are critical to the accuracy of hte machine, unlike our shaper bull gears which only need to transmit power and not be too noisy. So if you end up with too much backlash it will affect the operation of the machine. So Ok, it is a lot of money, but I would pay that for a planer! regards John ------- Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 05:18:26 -0000 From: "wfill" Subject: Shaper cut gears Here are pictures of my first attempt at cutting gears on the shaper, and it works great. http://tinyurl.com/2j9x2 http://tinyurl.com/2ooht http://tinyurl.com/36awd I worked from the method reported in the 1950 article, using materials in my scrap bin. In the pictures, a 32 tooth 20 d.p. gear is being cut. I made the 32 hole indexing plate on the rotary table, but for convenience I will probably change the indexing method to use existing gears, since I have drawers full of Logan change gears. The index plate and the workpiece are fastened to the shaft, with a pin through the drum into the index plate. The drum diameter is the pitch diameter of the gear being cut minus the diameter of the wire, as we have previously discussed here. The wire is .024 music wire, which for this gear size seems to be plenty strong. The wire is tensioned between two .375 cap screws fastened to a bar clamped to the column dovetail. This avoids having to drill into the shaper castings, and is easy to adjust. I am able to cut each tooth space in two passes, one roughing and one finish, incrementing the table by .003 per stroke. The total depth of cut for this d.p. is .108 inch, but since the gear is being rotated into the cutter, only a small amount of material is removed on each stroke. I used a roughing cut .090 deep and a finish cut of .018. The pressure angle was 14.5 degrees, so the amount of material removed from the tooth face and flank is quite small on the finish cut. There was some noticeable deflection of the workpiece on the roughing cut, so I might add a crutch to the shaft in front of the workpiece. All in all, the process is slow, taking about 5 minutes total per tooth space on my little Milwaukee Delta shaper, but it is fascinating to watch. The cutter is inexpensive, simply a quarter inch bit ground to an angle equal to twice the pressure angle, with a flat tip. I calculated the width of the flat on the tip to be .049 inches (for 14.5 degree PA, the flat width should be .972 divided by the d.p.) For shaping a replaced tooth, this method would be ideal. -Bill Fill Olympia, WA olymachinex~xxattbi.com ------- Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 06:53:12 -0000 From: "wfill" Subject: Re: Shaper cut gears "joe mama" wrote: > nicely done, bill. i am curious as to whether my assumption that the > angle of engagement between tool & work would be slightly more than > twice the PA was correct. thanx, joe Yes. On the finish pass, no more metal is removed after the workpiece has rotated 20 degrees past "top dead center". (I actually calculated this angle by measuring the transverse postion of the table and dividing by the pitch circumference.) But on the roughing cut, before any material has been removed from the tooth space, the tip of the tool first engages the outer edge of the gear blank at 35 degrees before top dead center. These measurements should be close but not exact. I plan to set up an antique tool and cutter grinder I was fortunate to find, and use it to more precisely grind the cutter. Bill Fill ------- Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2003 20:22:43 -0000 From: "stevenson_engineers" Subject: Not quite shaper cut gears Not exactly shaper related but I though some might be interested in seeing this. http://tinyurl.com/28qsx To get back on topic, this is the reason my forage into shaper cut gears has been delayed. This uses commercial hobs which can be expensive but it's main claim to fame is speed. I have just cut the brass gears in the pics in about 4 minutes per gear, same for the helicals and crossed helicals. The shaper cut gears main claim to fame will be cheap tooling but I think I can get cutting sped up a bit with a bit more automation. Another reason is I recently bought an Alba 18" shaper for my experiments thinking I'd bought a 12" Elliot on Ebay. However I have just stubbed my toe on a genuine ex schools 18" Elliot so I will be swapping machines after Christmas. John S. ------- Date: Thu, 01 Jan 2004 02:40:38 -0000 From: "jake2447" Subject: Lewis up and running- sorta ? I just got my old Lewis cleaned up, painted and running. It is looking good but I am not too happy with its cutting. To test it I grabbed an old piece of cold rolled and started to face it off. First problem: The ratchet on the lateral table feed is not working right. The pawl is not catching much of the time. The pawl is reasonably sharp and the splines seem to be OK, but there are some splines the pawl won't catch. I am curious as to what is the best way to true up the splines and pawl. Next problem: The surface finish is awful. There seems to be a tremendous amount of chatter. I have tightened down all the gibs, eliminated unnecessary overhang. There is still no change in the finish. Everything seems as rigid as possible. I am at a loss as to what could be causing the poor finish. Anybody got any suggestions on how I can get this old girl making blue chips and leaving a mirror finish. It has been over 30 years since I have run a shaper, so I must be doing something wrong. TIA Jake in Escondido ------- Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2003 18:40:30 -1000 (HST) From: Tom Benedict Subject: Re: Lewis up and running- sorta ? How's the fit 'n finish on your shaper's parts? I didn't know to check it when I bought my Lewis. Turns out the parts had been rough machined, but had never really been finished. There's enough play in the column that if I set the gibs at the bottom, it won't travel to the top. (And if I set 'em at the top, it gets cocked and binds going down.) The ram, which I figured would be the best fit of all, wound up being one of the worst. I hate to say I haven't got mine working after two years, but not all of it has been spent on the shaper. I figure a couple of weeks of evening scraping and the thing would be good to go. It's getting those weeks that's slowing me down. Too many projects! Let me know how your Lewis turns out and what you need to do to make her happy. As soon as I can reach my surface plate I'd like to start in on mine again. Tom ------- Date: Thu, 01 Jan 2004 20:05:56 -0000 From: "speedphoto300" Subject: Re: Lewis up and running- sorta ? Jake, remember, the Lewis was a "kit" machine, the quality of the result was dependent on the skill of the assembler. I would guess that there is some fitting yet be done, scraping and such. Joe ------- Date: Thu, 01 Jan 2004 21:50:34 -0000 From: "joe_sozanski" Subject: Re: Lewis up and running- sorta ? Jake, make sure the clapper isn't loose I don't know if the Lewis used a taper pin there or not. What kind of tool are you using? Lathe holders for hss tools aren't what you need on a shaper. You need a holder for carbide tipped tools it positions tool straight up and down. How did you hold the work? How deep a cut and what feed rate? A while ago somebody had a chatter problem and they were trying to face off a piece of angle iron and the unsupported side was causing the problem. Joe ------- Date: Fri, 02 Jan 2004 01:38:16 -0000 From: "jake2447" Subject: Re: Lewis up and running- sorta ? Joe et al, thanks for your input. Generally the shaper appears to be in good shape. No surfaces have been scraped. Everything seems to have been finished with a fly cutter. The original builder did go to the trouble of putting in several bronze bushings and gravity feed oilers, which I understand did not come in the kit. Most mating surfaces have little wear. Everything feels pretty tight once the gibs are snugged. There are no wipers on any of the sliding surfaces and there are a couple of places where swarf did make a few minor divots. The builder did neglect to put in any dials or means of measurement to tell how much of a cut or how much feed one is attempting. I was trying to do about a .020" cut with a range of feed from about 0- .020". Vertical passes seemed to be OK, but any amount of lateral feed produced a very poor surface. I used both a lathe tool holder and a multi position shaper type holder. Neither made much difference in the chatter. I probably need to do a better job on grinding my tools. The one I used was kind of a quicky to see if the machine would make chips. The clapper box seems to fit well and function properly. There is no taper on the pin. At one point I added a spring to assure that the clapper was closing properly. That addition actually made the surface finish worse. The vise is a POS and I do need to find a better one. I did find that the table with the key in is about a degree off of level, but figured that I could correct that pretty easily once I got the shaper cutting properly. Any thoughts on what I can do to get a more positive action on the ratchet for the table feed? Jake in Escondido ------- Date: Fri, 2 Jan 2004 10:16:51 -0600 From: Mike M Fendley Subject: Re: Re: Lewis up and running- sorta ? - 2 things to try Jake: Been reading your posts and another shaper guy "Jeff" might benefit from this as well. Two possibilities for your poor surface finish are as follows. 1) Your feed rate mechanism on the right side (usually coming off the bull gear shaft) may be 180 degrees out of phase. Most shapers will allow you to slide the dovetail or t-slot mechanism either side of the center line of the shaft. It is important that you pick the correct side depending on which way you are feeding your table. As the ram comes forward to cut you should hear the ratchet clicking, as the ram returns the ratchet should be grabbing the lead screw and advancing it. If you have either the feed reversed at the ratchet or at the feed setting, you can actually be advancing the table while you're cutting (a real no-no) and it will give you a crummy finish. 2) The second thing to check is for tool bit "dig in" on your work. If you are using a standard lathe HSS holder that holds the bit at an angle, "dig in" will be the norm and usually a poor finish. Even if you have a straight bit holder (for carbide) you can still get "dig in". The standard shaper holder will help correct that, getting the tool bit closer to the pivot pin of the clapper. However, a little trick I learned from an "old salt" was to turn the shaper holder 180 degrees so that the locking nut faces out and the cutting bit trails the holder (not leads). In this case the bit is usually right in line with the pivot of the clapper. Therefore if you hit a rough spot the bit tends to swing away and not dig into the work leaving a much nicer finish. Check or try those two items and let the rest of us know how you're coming on the shaper. Mike in Iowa ------- Date: Fri, 2 Jan 2004 12:49:05 -0800 From: "larry g" Subject: Re: Re: Lewis up and running- sorta ? - 2 things to try I have to agree with what Mike has said in part 2 of his post. According to the planer manual that I have, it also makes a point of making sure that the tool when deflecting will pull out of the cut and not into the cut. Therefore look at your setup and look for the weak/pivot point of the tool and make sure that it leads the cutting edge, thereby assuring any deflection is up and away. This doesn't guarantee elimination of chatter but will get you moving ahead. lg ------- Date: Sat, 03 Jan 2004 02:16:35 -0000 From: "jake2447" Subject: Re: Lewis up and running- sorta ? Mike and Larry, Well things are getting better with my old Lewis. I went back to basics and paid some attention to my tool grinding and found out that much of my surface finish problem was due to my poor tool grinding. Although the surface is not perfect yet, there is a vast improvement over the day before yesterday. I can see that the tool position is much more critical than on a lathe. The initial dig in is apparent on my test block. I will try a shaper tool holder this weekend. Thanks Jake in Escondido ------- Date: Sat, 03 Jan 2004 08:17:58 -0000 From: "dreilanderecht" Subject: Re: Lewis up and running- sorta ? Hi Jake: What sort of shape is the bit you are using? The most successful general purpose tool is shaped like a V when seen from the front. The angle between the two sides is typically around 60 degrees. Both sides need a clearance angle. The tip has a small flat so that the successive cuts just overlap. If the flat is too wide, the tool is more likely to chatter. The front face should have zero rake. If you are using a lathe type holder, you can grind the rake off...this is the opposite of the intent of building the rake in, so is a bit of a kludge but can work OK. But such holders are of course not ideal. I'm using a set like this that came with one of my machines but maybe oneday will end up with a lathe big enough to use them properly! The point about tools bending and digging in is not actually relative to the clapper box, at least not if the clapper box pin is a good fit. When the load is on the clapper box, it should be rigid enough to not deflect enough to matter for our purposes. But the tool itself and the toolholder if used will both bend under load. If the edge of the tool is ahead of the neutral axis then any bend will dig it in more, and this can be enough to drag things down and cause havoc. If the tip is further back, then any deflection will reduce the cut, so you get stable cutting. You can make a holder to put the tool behind quite easily, and it would be worth a try. regards John ------- Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2004 21:26:17 EST From: n8as1x~xxaol.com Subject: Re: Re: Lewis up and running- sorta ? randallx~xxfontaine-etal.com writes: > The tool I am using now is a HSS left hand finishing tool for mild > steel that I copied from an illistration from a shaper manual. This > tool I have now set in a home made multi position shaper two grinds will give me a finish barely second to a surface grind on steel on the flat w/ 7 in atlas ... one is a tool w/ a .0625 FLAT on tip ,,3-4 deg.clearance,set w/ as much flat as machine can stand w/out chatter & .001-.005 .cut .... second is a SHEAR grind ...tuff to describe ...try ...take a round nose, right hand lathe bit ground to a 3 -4 in radius w/ 3-4deg.cl., & 60 deg.side rake (yeah, 60) ...set this in shaper to cut from ur right to left (in front of shaper),so that the far right side of the side rake is to ur right (thinist part of bit )...in effect giving a fierce neg. rake like pushing the metal up a bank ....this second one gives an absolute superb finish ...nothing more needed best wishes docn8as ------- NOTE TO FILE: The full text of the next quoted passage is in the text file "Shaper History and Stories". When the thread changed to possible use of a shaper vice mill to produce a T-slot, follow-up messages were moved here. There is at first a misunderstanding as John needs a slot blind at one end while Doc thought it was a through slot. The thread touches on mill cutters, which will be interesting to shaper users as to possible alternatives to shaping procedures. =====> Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2004 00:26:50 EST From: n8as1x~xxaol.com Subject: Re: Re: what's going on in your shop? 1/26/2004, giolw9r4vh001x~xxsneakemail.com writes: > However...I will need to buy a T > slot cutter soon, and this is likely to cost about half of what I > paid for my latest shaper. Those little milling cutters are a lo cut it on the shaper ... rig a piece of gate hinge to lift & clear the work on return so as to not fracture the tool ... best wishes docn8as ------- Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2004 18:32:53 -0000 From: "dreilanderecht" Subject: Re: Blind ended T slot I'm not quite sure how you mean this to work. To explain a little more, the T slot on the AMMCO dividing head does not go right through. One end is available for the cutter to enter, but the other end is blind. I've done a T slot on the shaper where the cutters could pass right through, and I have also done circular ones, for swivel bases for vices. But with a blind one, the chip would pack at the far end. regards John ------- Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2004 21:57:07 EST From: n8as1x~xxaol.com Subject: Re: Re: Blind ended T slot > I'm not quite sure how you mean this to work. To explain a little > more, the T slot on the AMMCO dividing head does not go right through. sorry,John ....didnt realize that it was a blind slot ..didnt read carefully enuf ..........only way i know to work in a pocket is w/ clearance at the end .( a relief hole bored)_...cud blow each chip out w/ continuous air, if u cud keep from tearing up the tool on the reverse stroke .......dunno ....have not cut a tslot w/out lifting the tool out for the return...wonder what a lite cut w/locked clapper wud do??..i have shop made endmills, cornermills, counterbores & straight & tapered reamers ...i just might see abt fabricating a t slot mill ,maybe brazing a single or double edged piece of tool steel on a healthy arbor...maybe a rougher & a finisher to prevent clearance problems... best wishes docn8as ------- Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2004 03:32:23 -0000 From: "dreilanderecht" Subject: Re: Blind ended T slot > end .( a relief hole bored)_...cud blow each chip out w/ continuous > air, if u cud keep from tearing up the tool on the reverse stroke Actually the reverse stroke is not too big a worry, for this sort of cut you can lock the clapper. Yes, the tool will wear a bit on the backstroke, but not enough to be a real problem. But I would still need a place for the tool to clear on the forward stroke. I did just do a curved T slot on a vice base, inch wide and half inch slot, with the head of the T quarter inch deep and the total depth 5/8. The slot is around four inches diameter, and it was all done on the Myford, which is a bit on the small side for a job like this, but coped OK. >.......dunno ....have >not cut a tslot w/out lifting the tool out for the return..wonder what a >lite cut w/locked clapper wud do??.i have shop made endmills,cornermills, >counterbores & straight & tapered reamers...i just might see abt >fabricating a t slot mill ,maybe brazing a single or double edged piece >of tool steel on a healthy arbor........maybe a rougher & a finisher to >prevent clearance problems.... Might well be worth trying a home made cutter, either a single edge flycutter, or even as you say a two edged one. I make my own counterbores/pin drills, and have also made the odd woodruffe style cutter. The main thing for a T slot cutter is that it needs plenty of space for chip clearance, which is why a Woodruffe cutter is not recommended...I'm told they tend to burn up if you try a T slot with them, although I haven't tried it yet. The rougher and finisher sounds like a good idea, could take maybe half of the width out on one pass and the rest on the second. Could also take a couple of passes for the depth if that helped. regards John ------- Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2004 14:49:10 -0500 From: Bob Colquitt Subject: Contour Shaping How To Hello all: Finally being able to donate something to the shapers group. Here are 4 jpg's at 150 dpi from the 1960 PMSN on how to use a shaper to do contours along with a little device to help. The 4 jpg's are located at: <> They are each about 200K and can I ask that you don't all try to access on the same day - it may blow my ISP's capabilities - I'll leave up for a week or so. Tried pdf's but they were 4 times larger.... -=- Bob Colquitt ------- Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2004 09:59:53 -0000 From: "Frank Hasieber" Subject: Adept hand shaper. Hi all, the latest Model Engineers Workshop, No.96, has project by Harold Hall on using the Adept hand shaper to make an adjustable angle plate from castings, and is aimed at the novice, very interesting, but I can imagine the amount of physical work involved, covers 6 pages together with 15 photographs plus drawings. Regards to all, Frank ------- Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 20:59:17 -0500 From: "S or J" Subject: Re: Newbie question [NOTE TO FILE: The prior discussion of "Newbie question" was about what to look for in buying a shaper. See thread starting 10 Mar 2004 in the text file "Shaper General" here.] "dreilanderecht" wrote: >> ........ There are also tricks for coping with wear >> to some degree, but that would be another whole essay. :) Hi John: That was an excellent message. Your comments are always thoughtful, comprehensive and well received by everyone here. I suspect you realized what might come next after pressing send :-) There are few machines in our possession that could not do with a lot of tweaking to get the best out of them without having a complete rebuild. Could you start off the thread with a "short" essay on coping. Almost certainly the rest of our gang will then chip in with other ideas or variants on helping tired iron get through a job. Would be very helpful to all and find a special place in our archives of how-to shaper threads. Steve -- in Thunder Bay, Ontario, Canada Machining and Metalworking at Home http://www.janellestudio.com/metal/ ------- Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 08:33:18 -0000 From: "dreilanderecht" Subject: Re: Coping with wear Hmmm...I was expecting that either someone would pick up on the omission of any information about wear in the ratchet and feed department, or else they would ask about common breakages and what to do. Either of which is likely to be quite machine dependent. Anyway, I hope others will chip in, because I haven't encountered all the possible combinations, and mostly only write so much because I have realised that by going out on a limb and risking being wrong, you can sometimes get the otherwise silent guys to correct you. :) Coping with wear is going to depend a lot on the actual wear and the details of the machine. Starting with the easy ones first, mechanical noise can be dealt with in the time honoured way of going to thicker oil, which will help but should only be regarded as an expedience to allow you to machine the new part. Once a knock is noticeable it will get worse quite quickly. Then there is the possibility of building some parts up to avoid making new ones, a possible candidate here being to build up the sides of the die block if it is worn too small for the slot in the slotted arm. I intend to do this for my 10 inch Alba. (Round tuit needed...) Usually the block will be bronze, it can be tinned with white metal if you have it, good quality solder if you don't. (Not a lot of difference actually) The same thing can be one to the inside of a bearing, eg the hole in the die block could be filled and then rebored, as could any other bushes. But probably for any thin walled bushes it would be just as easy to make a new one...commercial bushes might be available too. There is a trick which may help if the cross slide is worn, allowing the table to sag a little. What you do is bring the table to the height you want, set the front support and lock it, then crank (or push) the table down against the support before locking the vertical adjustment. This ensures that the table support is loaded, helping to reduce any deflection due to the wear in the cross slide. This was discussed here once before, I think some others found it worked for them too. Incidently, although a shaper can true its own table if necessary, I think you should make sure that it is not worn in the cross slide area before doing this. If you correct sag by facing off the table, you are introducing another error...better to correct the actual problem. Wear in the leadscrews will of course affect accuracy, but only over the larger distances. This would make it hard to cut a rack for instance. I would work around that by temporarily attaching my digital calipers as a DRO scale. For small increments, as when facing down to a given thickness, wear in the downfeed screw won't matter a lot since you will only take a few thou at a time. You do need to watch the tendency for the downfeed to get pulled forwards into the job, a good lock on the downfeed helps here. You can sometimes set up the gibs to work over the range you need to use, at the expense of it getting tight at the ends of travel that are not normally used. This may let you use the machine satisfactorly for work smaller than its theoretical maximum, which might help to make that part you need.... Of course, none of these expediencies are really any substitute for actually fixing the problem, but may help, especially if the problem would otherwise involve too much hand work. While we are on those lines, it is worth looking at the techniques used in the Gingery books, even if you are not making the machine. You may be able to come up with something that allows you to machine some part, without actually having the right machine to do it. Like the way the old timers would machine a big flywheel rim using a couple of plummer blocks, a slot in the floor, and a compound rest. You mount the flywheel on a short shaft, in the plummer blocks in the slot in the floor, then mount the slide at a convenient point and machine the rim. Obviously setting up is key to get accuracy, but you certainly don't need a really big lathe. Detecting these various problems is a job for a dial gauge, and anyone who does not have one should consider getting one. Not too big, and a long travel is not vital. Small ones are easier to mount in interesting places like from the toolpost. Handy around the lathe too of course. regards John ------- Date: Fri, 02 Apr 2004 19:25:56 -0000 From: "kndroy" Subject: Tool Post Slop - How Do I Deal With It? Hello All. Fiddling with Eleanor last night (my shaper not my wife) I realized that, unlike a lathe, gravity is always pulling the tool post down so slop is never taken up. When the tool hits the work the slop is taken up and when the tool leaves the work the tool drops again. How do you guys get around this? Do you tighten the gibs up so the tool post doesn't drop? Forgot to mention it's an Atlas 9b. Thanks, Dave ------- Date: Sat, 03 Apr 2004 10:35:00 +1200 From: giolw9r4vh001x~xxsneakemail.com Subject: Re: Tool Post Slop - How Do I Deal With It? Most machines have a screw to allow locking the down feed. The gibs should be set up for a smooth fit, not really tight, and then the locking screw can be used to tighten it up. We don't tend to use tools with a lot of top (front?) rake because that would tend to make them pull down into the work. This is especially important when working bronze or brass. If your machine does not have a locking screw, it is worth adding one. Lacking a locking screw you could set the gibs up a bit tighter. regards John ------- Date: Sat, 17 Apr 2004 23:13:04 -0000 From: "oldarnmonger" Subject: First chips and a few questions from the newbie After taking way too long making a new die block, fabricating a motor and countershaft mount and then making a cabinet to put it all on, I finally got my rebuilt AMMCO 7" running this week. I think I may be getting the hang of it after about 6 hours of piddling around. Did surfacing on aluminum and mild steel, right and left 90 deg shoulder cuts, and squaring some stock without chattering the cutter. Running at about 80 strokes per minute, the heaviest cut I can manage in steel is 0.008 to 0.01". More than that, I get chatter or stall the machine. I attribute this most likely to my inability to grind a decent tool. I know that this is something better learned in-person from a good teacher, but - Is there a decent website on the subject, or at least some books that you would recommend for learning the art of tool grinding? Pictures of my shaper at http://andy.sargent.net/ammco - Andy Sargent Cleveland, OH ------- Date: Sun, 18 Apr 2004 16:06:47 +1200 From: giolw9r4vh001x~xxsneakemail.com Subject: Re: First chips and a few questions from the newbie Well, it is always good to hear of another machine back together and making chips again. What type of tool are you using? Is it held in a holder or directly in the toolpost? The type of tool I use for flat surfaces is shaped like a V as seen from the front. It has no front rake, and the bottom of the V has a small flat on it. It is just like a screwcutting tool with the end flattened off. The flat should be just wider than the amount of feed on each stroke. It can cut when traversing in either direction, which saves time winding back, but of course is not useful for cutting steps. If it is mounted in a holder it should be one that does not put rake on the tool. I emphasise the lack of rake since this can be factor, it can tend to cause the tool to pull forward into the job.If you are just mounting a piece of toolsteel direct in the toolpost, it should be a good big one, 3/8 would be nice. Bending in the tool (or the toolholder) can contribute to chatter. Some types of tool holder permit mounting the actiual tool at the back rather than in front, which helps. When the tool is near the front, bending will take it into the job, while if it is near the back it tends to reduce the cut. Actual angles are surprisingly non critical, provided you do actually have clearance behind the cutting edge. Too much clearance will tend to make the tool wear out faster or allow the edge to chip more easily before. So tools sharpened by eye are generally fine. You should be able to get the Ammco to take about a tenth of an inch maximum off cast iron, mild steel, or aluminium....thinking of the easy to cut grades here, not the tough stuff. I don't usually push mine that hard, in fact usually I would take off about 30 thou for a roughing cut. This is because although I intend to have a go at cutting one of those helical gears sometime, I am pretty busy at the moment! regards John ------- Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2004 21:58:43 -0000 From: "al_messer" Subject: Long internal keyways [Metal_Shapers group] Should long (6 inches plus)internal keyways be cut from the side with the table feed, or up or down with the tool holder feed? Al Messer ------- Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2004 17:45:01 -0500 From: mikejanfx~xxjuno.com Subject: Re: Long internal keyways Al, I recently had to do an internal female spline for a drill press. I have a 5/8 inch diameter "boring bar" type holder about 4" long for my Logan 8. It mounts in place of the tool post and is easy to make for any shaper. Trying to cut a spline with the cutting bit aimed down and cutting on the forward stroke brought nothing but chatter and completely stalled the machine with the cutting bit digging in. I turned the bit backwards and aimed it up to cut on the return stroke. The clapper does not come into play this way (although you drag the bit on the work.) However, I got a flawless spline and it worked magnificently. (Get your speed low.) You can see the set up (unfortunately not close-up) at our Metal_Shapers_Pix site. Look for "Modifications of a Logan 8." In the picture I have mounted an actual Armstrong Holder with boring bar for a shaper. In actuality I used the Logan tool for cutting the spline. Grinding the bit was key. Too flat, no cutting action. Too much rake, it would grab the work. About 3 degrees of rake seemed to make all the difference. Experiment with the grind until it works. Pictures of the Logan Slotting Post have just been uploaded so give it a look. Mike Fendley ------- Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2004 23:19:56 EDT From: n8as1x~xxaol.com Subject: Re: Long internal keyways on atlas 7 in cutting keyways in gears .....PULL stroke works cutting down ...lock the clapper & snug up the slide ....this also gives good vision of layout .........(.a little off topic here, but when setting the tool for a normal TRAVERSING cut, after clamping slide , reverse the feed screw to remove slack & do this each time u put on more cut this will prevent cutting deeper than intended.. check the reading before taking out slack so u know where u were) ........push stroke ,cutting up also works w/ a locked clapper & u dont worry abt slop in screw .....so apparantly the only position that is a problem is cutting down , on forward stroke ........i have managed it , by taking slack out of screw , but prefer one of the first two above ,when i can ...when cutting a WIDE keyway/slot, cant make up mind whether to take two 1/2 cuts,.... cut the middle out, then the sides,... or use a u shape tool cutting the outsides of groove, & then the inside .....i welcome comment ........ best wishes docn8as ------- Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 10:01:38 -0000 From: "pgp001" Subject: Re: Long internal keyways Al, one modification I did to my Atlas 7B was to add a lock screw to to the tool slide; this prevents any downwards creep whilst cutting. I think the omission of such a screw is a bad design flaw, but one that is very easy to overcome. I always do keyways on the back stroke, and as such I have done a further modification, and added a locking screw to the clapper box as well so the tool is nice and rigid. Phil ------- Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 [Metal_Shapers group] From: mikejanfx~xxjuno.com Subject: Re: What's up with cutting internal keyways? 20 Aug 2004 writes: > I'm considering adding a small shaper to my shop, primarily > to make some internally splined couplers. > However, the recent discussions here regarding cutting > internal keyways is making me nervous, given these internal > splines are like cutting a bunch of internal keyways. > What is it about this cutting operation that requires the > shaper to run in a special way (clapper box disabled, cut > on back stroke)? Is making internally splined couplers going > to work well on a small shaper? Thanks, Paul T. Paul: The problem is usually not the shaper but the operator or asking the machine to do more than is possible. Poor grinds on tool bits cause the biggest problems. However, a long internal cut going in the normal "push" mode will always tend to bend the tool. Look at boring on a lathe. It doesn't matter how strong or ridgid the boring bar is, if you stick it out a mile and try to bore with it, you get chatter and flex in the boring bar. The difference is the cutting action is circular and you can sometimes get away with it. However, with a shaper the cutting is linear and usually we are trying to cut an internal keyway in a small bore, hence flex in the keyway cutting bar. So with a shaper, everything needs to be tight and locked down where possible. Tool bit ground correctly, and in many cases cutting on the "return" stroke with the bit up and not down, eliminates many of the chatter problems. If you have ever used a parting tool on a lathe you know how it can dig in, break, stall the machine, etc. However, if you put your cutoff tool on the back side of the work and upside down, when you snag the work it tends to push the cutter away and not pull it in. The same principle is involved in cutting on the "return" stroke as opposed to the forward stroke when cutting long internal keyways or splines. Never fear using a shaper, but there is a learning curve to use them well. It's one of the "funnest" machines in my bus! Mike in Iowa, the "gray-bus" ------- Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 22:48:23 -0000 From: "CalBoy101" Subject: Re: What's up with cutting internal keyways? >> If you have ever used a parting tool on a lathe you know how it can dig in, break, stall the machine, etc. However, if you put your cutoff tool on the back side of the work and upside down, when you snag the work it tends to push the cutter away and not pull it in. << Maybe I'm slow, but I've never understood why moving a cutoff tool to the backside and upside down has any advantages. If the angles and height of the cutoff tool are the same relative to the workpiece center I don't see why the forces on the cutting tool aren't exactly the same. The only difference becomes the forces applied to the carriage- but I'd rather have my carriage being pushed down on the bed (frontside) rather than pulled up (backside). Am I missing something here? Paul T. ------- Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 18:56:07 -0500 From: mikejanfx~xxjuno.com Subject: Re: Re: What's up with cutting internal keyways? Paul: Yes, you are missing something (and I did too for a long time!). A picture is worth a 1,000 words but since we can't add attachments here goes the thousand words (shortened I hope.) Whether you use a lantern tool post or an Aloris, when using a parting tool with the blade extended the proper length for the job you are doing, there is a point in the tool post setup where it pivots or bends no matter how rigid the setup. For the sake of explanation, think of every tool post base as a hinge, granted a stiff one, but still a hinge. Your parting tool is above the compound slide and sticking out from the point where it is clamped to the cross feed. Think of the point where it is clamped as a hinge. Now when the parting tool catches a burr or hard spot in the material, the blade pivots (bends) at the hinge point, and since it is above the hinge point and sticking out, it tends to be pulled into the work (breaking blade, work, or stalling machine.) Now think of the same setup (with hinge on the bottom) behind the work with the blade upside down. The work is still rotating the same direction. Now when the blade hits a hard spot, it is pushed away from the work (remember our "hinged base") and the cutter goes over the burr or hard spot and comes back and catches it on the next revolution as opposed to digging in and getting broken or stalled. Draw it out on paper and you'll see that it really works. (And to think this was actually a discussion on cutting long keyways in a shaper on the return stroke!) Ain't machin' fun! Keep makin' linear chips Paul. Mike in Iowa ------- Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2004 19:28:15 +0100 (BST) From: Matthew Tinker Subject: Re: What's up with cutting internal keyways? When cutting on the return stroke, do you run the shaper backwards so as to have a slow return? Just a thought! Matthew ------- Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2004 16:23:32 -0500 From: mikejanfx~xxjuno.com Subject: Re: What's up with cutting internal keyways? Matthew: That would probably work better (more power) but not many of us wire our shapers with a reverse switch. Seeing how keyway and spline cutting is not an everyday operation for most of us, just keeping your speed down and taking your time will produce the results needed ... but I may start looking for a reverse switch anyway! Mike in Iowa ------- Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2004 23:13:32 +0100 From: Clive Foster Subject: Re: What's up with cutting internal keyways? Paul: Another important point to consider besides the pure geometry of the system is whether the cutting forces are being applied by tension or by compression. This is especially important when considering parting off on a lightweight lathe but even the hefty moving parts of a shaper are not immune. Its a lot clearer WTHIGO [What the hell is going on} if you consider the lathe case first so, with apologies for digression:- Essentially anything in compression will try to run away from the load by bending or distorting. Clearly when parting off in a lightweight lathe like a small SouthBend or Myford all the tool force has to be passed through a slender feed screw with significant unsupported length. Typically the feed screw core diameter is of the order of 3/16 inch and unsupported length a couple of inches or more. Under cutting forces its gonna bow slightly and if it hits a hard spot it will bounce back a bit more, acting rather like a spring. Having passed the hard spot the tool bounces into cut again and, as ever with springs, over travels slightly. If the over travel is too much for a clean cut, the tool will dig in and draw the slide forward through some of the free play betwixt feed nut and screw. Obviously everything is out of the operators control now and a dig in results bringing everything to a halt or, worse, breaking things. Those of us who have used well worn lathes will have discovered that the greater the wear in the feed screw/nut combination the more likely things are to dig in when parting off. Now consider a shaper pushing a relatively slender tool. When the tool hits the hard spot it bends and reacts against the weight of the moving arm and the clearance in the slides trying to lift things slightly. For small shapers or well worn ones it actually will lift things a tiny bit and put all sorts of other clearance changes in the rest of the mechanism. Once past the hard spot these changes all relax so, as with the lathe, the tool is briefly out of control leading to all the usual problems of chatter, poor finish and so on. Things in tension just go taunt and stay straight. If you pull hard enough they will stretch and eventually break but you have to pull real hard. Returning to the lightweight lathe but with the tool in the rear tool post. Now the cutting forces are applied by tension and the slender feed screw is pulled taunt and kept straight. When the tool hits a hard spot it needs more force to keep it cutting generated by stretching the feed screw a teensy bit. A really teensy bit, far too small to measure in any practical sense. I haven't a clue how much force it would take to stretch even the smallest feed screw by a thou but its got to be far more than any sane lathe user would apply. Once past the hard spot the forces relax slightly but all the clearances are still taken up and the tool remains firmly under control. Similarly for the shaper. Working on the back stroke all the clearances are pulled out and any relaxation of the cutting forces just lightens the loads slightly but the clearances remain pulled out. There is no way for things to unload sufficiently for the tool to go out of control. Obviously the benefits will be greater with a well worn machine simply because there will be more, and larger, clearances to cause trouble when working the conventional way. Frankly I've never figured why shapers are made to work on the push stroke, pulling seems much saner. Its also well known that Japanese style pull saws are much easier to control than Western cut on the push stroke ones, well on fine work anyway, for essentially similar reasons. Digressing, for the last time, to lathes my Heavy 10 SouthBend has a taper turning attachment so the cross feed screw acts in tension. My lathe is clearly much better at parting off with the tool in the usual place than similar machines having conventional, push, feed screws. HTH. Clive ------- Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 16:48:38 EDT From: n8as1x~xxaol.com Subject: Fwd: cutting a dovetail? In a message dated 8/27/2004, mariol.vitalex~xxatt.net writes: > Most shaper tools are (IIRC) lathe tool bits. Much of the way that I > know of to use a shaper is based on lathe tool geometry. first cut out the rectangular wide slot & recess the center part ,leaving enuf in the corners for the dovetail a shovel nose (dutch nose) tool works well for cleaning up corners.....a square end bit ,tapering back from end on from both sides,for 1/2in. or so, w/ 3deg. clearance on end& sides & a little back rake ....cut dovetail w/ a lathe type side tool ,only use 1/2 the clearances, w/ a point angle slightly less than the dovetail...set the downfeed at correct angle, loosen the clapper slot & move the clapper away from cut, as Mario said..........move table over abt .020 or so &.manually feed down on return stroke a few thou per stroke (depends on shaper size) (lock table if possible )....keep moving table over for each new cut .... u can put indicators on table to keep track where u are ....when nearing finished size ,angle tool so it approaches at a near flat to cut ....this eliminates the ridges ,giving a smooth finish ......sizing is done over dowels in in the corner of dovetail & u need a book for this .........or cut to fit ........ PRACTICE ON A PIECE OF SCRAP... UR SECOND ONE WILL BE A LOT BETTER..........if work allows, u can reverse the work in the vise & cut the other side w/ same setup ...& this is advisable ....... best wishes docn8as ------- Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2004 01:20:19 -0000 From: "Peter Verbree" Subject: Re: Making a bandsaw guide on the shaper .035"? wrote: > My bandsaw, a Startrite 18v10 has blade guides with inserts which > have a slot cut in for the blade to ride in. One above and one below > the action. Im thinking Ill try cutting this groove which is .035 > wide and approx. .250 deep in the shaper. Has anybody cut such a > narrow slot on a shaper with HSS. Any thoughts on it appreciated. Jeff Jeff: First off, I envy you your saw!!! I worked at a place that had a large Startrite bandsaw which I used a LOT. A very versatile machine. When we first got the saw we used the guides with the slots as you describe. We did not have much success with them, as every man and his dog was allowed to abuse the saw :-(( We bought a set of ball bearing guides that made this an even better saw. I think that they were an accessory from the manufacturer. Regarding the blocks, have you considered using a hacksaw blade? Not the usual type, but the screw slotting blades made by Starrett. They come in several different thicknesses. Check near the back of the Starrett catalog. Cheers Pete ------- Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2004 02:51:49 -0000 From: "William" Subject: Re: Making a bandsaw guide on the shaper .035"? >Has anybody cut such a narrow slot on a shaper with HSS. >Any thoughts on it appreciated. I have---once---and I won't try again. Trashed the tool about 6 times. Suggest a slitting saw. Not familiar with EDM on such a small scale. ww ------- Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2004 06:45:01 +0000 From: mariol.vitalex~xxatt.net Subject: Re: Re: Making a bandsaw guide on the shaper .035"? Pete: Use a hack saw?!?... This is a MACHINE TOOL group!!!! Actually, I think you make a good point. While it is becoming less so today, over the years, some of the most critical machinist's skills were accomplished with hand tools. I remember working in one of the largest 5 axis NC machine shops in the world, and they talked about getting rid of all the "old conventional mills". I would regularly remind folks that every part that came off an NC machine went to a conventional mill to have the tooling lugs cut off! Not only that, after they came off the conventional mills, in order for them to meet the engineering requirements for mismatch, chatter, and other surface finish conditions, they went to the deburr area, where a bunch of guys and girls with die grinders would bring the part into compliance with the engineering drawings! Don't underestimate the capability of hand tools...and practice the skills that warrant that appreciation! Mario ------- Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2004 21:03:54 -0500 (EST) From: Woodchuck Subject: Re: SQUARE HOLES AGAIN. >>A shaper can do 95% of what a mill can do, plus cut splines, modify >>round holes into square ones cut keyways and other operations where >>a revolving cutter doesn't fit the bill or can't reach. >Someone said it again. Modify round holes into square ones like to make the square or rectangular opening in the receiver of a falling block rifle action?? Would someone please explain to me how this is done? The main reason I bought my ammco shaper was because I thought shapers could do this, but I can't seem to find any directions in detail on how it is done. REGARDS, BUBBA K. < Drill the hole round first on lathe or drill press[*]. Now you fit up the shaper with an "inside" tool, which looks like a big "L", the horizontal part is more or less like a boring bar for a lathe, the vertical part is held by the toolpost holder as usual. This thing you can then use to square up the sides of the round hole. Usually with one of these you want to lock your clapper box down so it doesn't "clap", and take very light cuts. (This is more or less the same tool used to cut internal keyways in pulleys and such.) My suspicion was that this was the way the old falling blocks were done, after a trip through the shaper, you'd either be undersize and then use a broach for the final surface, or clean up with files and small handstones. But the shaper was definitely in wide use during the last half of the 19th century. A very likely method for mass production would be to forge the square hole, but you'd still want some way to true it and give it a good surface. So you'd forge the hole, anneal the steel, shape, finish and probably then case-harden it, the usual receiver was going to be forged at some point to form the tang and so on. I'm pretty sure this was the general method used on lever-action repeaters, too. (Big mfgs would have purpose-built machinery, of course.) I don't think a 19th century forge (I mean a steam forge, not John with his hammer) could produce a good enough surface for a FB action on its own, and there might be (would be!) a scale problem, too, so you'd have to do some sort of machining on it. I wonder if they used "filing machines" for final fitting of these actions? Naturally on a shaper you can get real fancy with things like grooves in the side of the hole and what-not, as well as producing a tapered "square" hole or whatever, as I believe some single-shots have. Nowadays, you'd do an investment casting, but I don't think that tech was used back then, especially in steel. [*] Or you can drill out a bunch of holes, like ooooo, break the webs with a chisel, then shape the result, less work on the shaper. If you want round fillets in the corner, I'd imagine they were drilled first, but a round-nose tool could shape them. Yeah, this is definitely a shaper job. Other than broaching or ultra- modern tech like chemical erosion, I can't think of another mechanized method. Dave ------- Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2004 20:19:38 -0000 From: "Don Kinzer" Subject: Interesting Page on "running a shaper" There may not be much new information for experienced shaper operators but it might be a good resource for newcomers. http://tinyurl.com/637ly ------- Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2005 06:29:16 -0000 From: "dwking49" Subject: How to cut key ways in a bore Using a Shaper Hi Guys, if you want to know how to cut keyways in a bore using a shaper. I wrote this up on another BBS because there are some pic's in the post, something I don't see here, Here's the link http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//Forum1/HTML/010643.html ------- Date: Fri, 02 Dec 2005 21:47:38 -0000 From: "gdstorrick" Subject: Re: cutting material in a shaper In Metal_Shapersx~xxyahoogroups.com, "kwolson2002" wrote: > How would the downfeed be managed with a cut-off tool arranged in > this fashion? I'm guessing the tool's just manually advanced into the > kerf, being careful not to crowd the cut too much. Kevin I had a couple chunks of steel to cut a couple months ago. Each one was 2x10x60 and I wanted to cut them into 4 pieces. Normally I cut steel on by el-cheapo Asian bandsaw (piece of junk and the most useful tool in my shop), but these pieces were too big. I bisected one with a torch, but the torch took too long and used too much gas. I managed to bisect the other with an abrasive cutoff wheel, but that also took a long time and I shattered a wheel when I didn't get the cuts alightd trying to come in from both sides. But at this point, I had 30" pieces that I could lift onto the shaper (a little old 20" G&E). At first I tried using some large lathe cutoff tools that someone else ground. They cut very well until they bound, then Bang!!, HSS flying around in pieces when I shattered a 3/4 square tool. No bodily damage received from impacting steel, but glad I had the facemask on to protect the peepers. Always be careful & don't die..... I ground a thicker slotting tool, about 3/16" wide, provided plenty of side rake, and cut half-way through, flipped the slab, & finished. I manually fed the downfeed, 1/6 turn per stroke. Once done, knocking the rust off the rest of each piece was a perfect shaper job. Why did the shaper work so well for cutting big slabs? My opinion FWIW: more horsepower than any other machine in my garage. gary ------- Date: Sat, 03 Dec 2005 22:26:27 -0000 From: "gdstorrick" Subject: Re: cutting material in a shaper "Art Volz" wrote: > Horsepower is marvelous stuff: one horsepower removes > a cubic inch of steel a minute. (rule of thumb) > Art (In Houston: gazing at my thumb...wondering were the plum pie be.) Art: Yes it is. I've seen that rule but seldom push that hard, just because the things I build tend to be small and made of either aluminum or plastic. Working those steel slabs, though, the 20" shaper never even strained. Wish I had a few more laying around..... I think my next machine will be a much larger lathe, my flat-belt-drive Wards/Logan doesn't have the Ooomph that I'd like. Keep that thumb out of the shaper's path..... gds ------- Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2005 10:17:24 -0000 From: "Art Volz" Subject: Re: WOW! AN EVEN BIGGER THANK YOU!!!!!!! VVW! Ken--B4 you start doing anything download and PRINT OUT a copy of yet another one of our files, the operator's manual for the South Bend 7- inch shaper. Use this manual as the "how-to" manual for your Atlas. Read it thouroughly...and then read it again: http://lathe.com/YahooGroups/Files/Metal_Shapers/sbarmy7shaper.pdf Read my annotated comments below: > Questions: > #1: Which way? Bit to the front (Facing You) or The Back? The SB manual shows operating with the bit forward--facing you--it is easier for the operator to view the cutting action in this position. Many users mount the bit at the back...as it has less possibility of digging in. I use mine facing the front unless I have problems. > #2: How much angle (I guess I'm saying it right, 360 deg of bit > setting) not counting what the shaper can be set for; can this do? The use of a 12 point socket head to index (adjust) the tool bit allows for indexing every 30 degrees (12 stops in 360 degrees). > #3: How much "grunt" when I tighten it into the tool holder? Just enuf to keep the bit tight so that it doesn't loosen during use. > #4: How much "Reach" can you allow the toolholder from the clapper box? It's really a function of how much your shaper can handle, but always try to minimize the extension. > #5: Sort of the same question on the bit? How much can stick out > before I need a Helmet and Faceshield? As little as possible...and it depends on what you're cutting. Start with about 1/2 inch...and experiment and refine. > And Last but not least, I've never had a toolholder for the shaper > before, > #6: Any "Safety Cautions" or don't do this Bonehead, or additional > facts I should know? The usual--hair net over long hair to preclude getting scalped, safety glasses, face shield if you have a pretty kisser, no rings or watches, cotton clothing (no plastic), shoes and socks that chips can't land in, short sleeve shirt not tucked in so that hot chips can escape, and keep your fly zipped even if it is hot...or you'll have a very hot corn dog instead. PLUS: Stay out of the way of the machine (out of the way of the ram): shapers are designed to be operated from the right side NOT the front. Leave your hands off of the tool-head (except for downfeed crank handle)/clapper/tool- post/tool-holder. If you start grabbing at the tool bit you'll lose a finger or more. Read the South Bend manual again. Adjust the ram cutting speed to 50 feet per minute or less. > So as not to waste your time can I read this somewhere? Start with the SB manual. The book you will want to eventually get-- it's 300 pages but has been put onto a CD for $5.OO--is Delmar's long out of print and rarer than proverbial hen's teeth 1953 "Shaper Work". You're not there yet. Use the South Bend manual until you have mastered it first. One other thing. Make a small shim of 1/8 inch thick steel and use it in the tool post slot in between the top of the tool holder shank and the the tightening screw on your lantern tool post. This will prevent marring the top of your new adjustable tool holder. Bend a short tab on the top of the shim--making it "L" shape--to keep it from falling out when you adjust the extension and angle of the tool holder vis-a-vis the lantern tool post. > And Now, In all seriousness, truly, Thank You, to you and all who > participated. This honestly is the closest to an Xmas present I've > felt in years.... Merry Christmas from all of the Gang of Three: V & V & W! Art ------- Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2005 09:09:36 -0600 From: "Mario L Vitale" Subject: Re: Re: WOW! AN EVEN BIGGER THANK YOU!!!!!!! VVW! Ken, Art beat me to it, (he get's up before me...or should I say he goes to sleep just before I get up!), and as usual he's done a great job. Regarding other reading material, the only other thing I might recommend is a copy of Emanuele Stieri' "Shapers" (Manual's manual!?) It's a straightforward basic primer on shaper operation, tooling and set-up. It is usually available on e-bay or directly from Lindsay Books (http://www.lindsaybks.com/prod/index.html) As I recall, it is only about 10 or 12 bucks. No need to apologize for acting like the rest of us "mere mortals", besides, once you realized we were interested in what you were doing, you turned out to be a genuinely decent human being ...(where have I heard that before?) Mario ------- Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2006 21:27:19 -0000 From: "jpfalt" Subject: Re: using your shapers In Metal_Shapersx~xxyahoogroups.com, "John Burridge" wrote: > what are you using your shapers to make at the moment? I've been using a Logan 8", mostly for making more tools. I made an 8 x 16 slotted table that mounts on the shaper to extend the table for use with a rotary indexer, flattened the tops of several pieces of railroad track for bench blocks and am building a 3" hand operated shaper from Martin Model castings. See: Martin Model & Pattern P. O. Box 19792 Portland, Oregon 97280 503-452-9544 www.martinmodel.com Email: garyx~xxmartinmodel.com ------- Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2006 00:53:49 -0000 From: "johann_ohnesorg" Subject: Re: using your shapers I´m making 4 pairs of toolmaker clamps right now; next will be cutting t-slots in my 10x22 lathe's compound (can´t see why there are none from the factory). After this, holddowns for the mill again. And, as a target for this year, I´ll built a rotary table. The plans for this one are provided by westbury in his LVM.pdf article about the dore westbury light vertical mill. Ouh, and someone must rework a honda XL 500 cylinder head. This will be a joint venture between lathe and mill. Lots of work to do. I should start right now...after another cup of coffee ;) Cheers, Johann ------- Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2006 12:17:56 -0800 From: J R Slack Subject: Re: Re: using your shapers 11 Jan 2006, KARENDBD34x~xxAOL.COM wrote: > ... covering the floor with curly bits of scrap which get every > where if anyone as an answer for this problem i'm always ready for > a good idea. Plastic gallon milk jug with the bottom cut out, and a couple of small magnets to strategically position it off the end of the table. Regards, Jack ------- Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2006 18:46:38 EST From: n8as1x~xxaol.com Subject: Re: Re: using your shapers my 20in mitts /merril has a fabbed box to catch chips ,horiz.tabs underneath slide in t/slots on side of table to hold box...still need to change 440 to 220 before strting up ,so cant comment on efficacy ,but shud do the job best wishes docn8as ------- Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2006 18:57:00 -0600 From: J R Williams Subject: Re: Re: using your shapers Jack: I made a simple pan similar to a small dust pan with a flat bar to slip into a "T" slot to hold it in place that catches most of the chips from my Logan. The magnet might be a problem with ferrous chips. I will give a milk jug a try the next time. JRW ------- Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2006 19:32:30 -0600 From: mikejanfx~xxjuno.com Subject: VERTICAL FEED IDEA to look over > Can anyone think of a reason to have an UP feed on the vertical slide? Yes. When cutting an internal spline, I've found if you put the cutting bit up with it's cutting edge facing toward the shaper and cut on the pull stroke, you never get the digging in problem when cutting keyways and splines. You don't have to worry about locking your clapper either. It does drag on the bit on the forward stroke, but not before you get your keyway done ... plus the other five if you're doing a 6 slot spline. Your verticle upfeed is very fine, but it cuts beautifully. Also, be sure and slow your machine down since the return stroke moves the ram faster backwards than forwards. Mike in Iowa ------- NOTE TO FILE: The following thread is interesting in that the ripple might be a mechanical problem with the particular shaper, but could also be caused by shaper feed speed/advance too fast, or by lack of sufficient lubrication. ------- Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2006 13:08:12 -0000 From: "Irby Jones" Subject: Re: Atlas shaper - small ripple in machined surfaces In Metal_Shapers, "lkasdorf" wrote: > Hi fellow shapenoids > I fired up the old Atlas a few days ago- I'm having a few friends over > to see the farm and my shop, and I want to show them my little Atlas > shaper running. > I chucked up a little 3/4" bar of aluminum and set it off taking light > cuts to make a nice flat face. > It worked well, except at one point in the stroke, there is a little > bump. In the finished work, there is a ridge running across. > What does this sound like? Crud in the ram ways? Hi LK: seems everyone got tied up with making gears and no one answered your question. I don't have an Atlas, so I can't speak on what the problem may be. But I remember someone with an Atlas having a similar problem once, so maybe someone else here will help. Is that ridge a bump up, then down again, like a mountain? Or does it stay high once it goes there? I had a worn clapper pin on my Lagan that allowed the tool to jump up somewhere on each stroke and created a plateau effect, rising up, but staying there for the remainder of the stroke. It would then start cutting where it should on the next stroke. It wasn't necessarily repeatable on every stroke, though, so it sounds different than you problem. Maybe my answer will jog someone else to help you. > Also, I tried it again a day or 2 later, and the motor wouldn't move > the ram. I lubed every oiler I could find, but I confess I haven't dug > up the manual to oil everything. I probably need to lube the machinery > in the "crankcase". Maybe it was crud in the ramways after all. But we need to get some Atlas folks awake! Irby ------- Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2006 08:26:38 -0500 From: "Rick Rowlands" Subject: Re: Re: Atlas shaper - small ripple in machined surfaces My guess is that something, perhaps the block, was starting to seize up from lack of lubrication causing the erratic performance. After you shut the machine down the parts seized together and now the machine is frozen. Tear into it and find what is seized and free them up. You may have to replace some parts. Rick ------- Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2006 14:43:52 -0500 (GMT-05:00) From: Jim Ash Subject: Re: Re: Atlas shaper - small ripple in machined surfaces Mine does a similar thing, but I haven't taken the time to dig into it too deeply. I posted a similar inquiry about it back in the summer; scan the old messages for 'Shaper diagnostics' and they should come up. Below are my thoughts on the problem, which may also be yours. It's been several months since I've played with my machine (unheated shop and serious winter outside), so I'm going from memory here. Run a test piece like you've been doing and leave it in the vice when you're done. You might want to highlight where the ridge is with a sharpie or something really visible. Turn the shaper off, raise the clapper enough so it clears the work, and move the table so your test piece is under the cutting tool. Open the side cover on the machine, which will expose the bull gear. Mounted on the bull gear is what I'll call a 'slide' with a couple guides on either side. It ultimately drives the ram above. This slide can move back and forth between those guides, which is how you adjust the length of your stroke. Advance your pulleys by hand until the ram is all the way to the back of the stroke. Now slowly turn your pulleys by hand and advance the ram forward, keeping your eye on the cutting edge of your tool. Pay close attention to the slide on the bull gear as the ram advances. As the cutting edge of the tool gets to the ridge in your test piece, the forces on the slide will have changed (reversed, actually), and the slide 'flops' from one position to another. This 'flop' causes a hiccup in the ram stroke, which in turn causes an irregularity in the cut. When I first saw this, I wondered why I haven't heard of this problem before, because it looked to me like all Atlas shapers (and any other that use this geometry) should have this same problem to some degree. I've run 4" cuts at both fine and course feeds, and my 'ridge' (as you call it) is always at the same position of the ram stroke. I got this far in figuring out my problem, but dropped it for other more pressing projects at home, so I haven't come up with a solution to the problem yet. Try this and get back to me (us). I'll be curious if we've got the same problem or not. Jim Ash p.s. What he said..... I missed the 'seized up' part. If it's still a problem after the seize-up is fixed, try the stuff in my reply. ------- Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2006 22:04:56 -0000 From: "gdstorrick" Subject: Re: Atlas shaper - small ripple in machined surfaces Jim: What a great explanation! I don't have this problem on either of my machines (7" Atlas, 20" G&E) but I almost wish I did since I would now know what to fix! Great description. Does switching to a shear tool for finishing eliminate the noticable ridge? I'm rather used to using shear tools and I wonder if this is why I haven't had this problem. Gary ------- Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2006 18:27:37 -0500 (GMT-05:00) From: Jim Ash Subject: Re: Re: Atlas shaper - small ripple in machined surfaces I was afraid the explanation was too verbose, but I couldn't think of a much shorter way to describe it all. Glad you liked it. Wuddaheck is a shear tool? I tried a few tools with various radii, and the hiccup occurred with all of them. I remember changing the position of the stroke, but I don't remember my results. I recall trying to rule out a problem with the ram ways (which I did), but I don't remember how I did it exactly. Now that you guy have got my curiousity up, I'm going to have to put on some winter clothes and drag an extension cord and a flashlight out to my shop tonight and quickly refresh myself on this whole thing before my fingers freeze off (8 degrees F at home this morning). Jim ------- Date: Sat, 28 Jan 2006 13:16:44 -0000 From: "gdstorrick" Subject: Re: Atlas shaper - small ripple in machined surfaces > Wuddaheck is a shear tool? Sorry if I don't know the officially correct name for it, forgive me. I mean the tool normally used for steel finishing that has the cutting edge angled about 25 degrees more or less to the stroke instead of about 90 degrees (ignoring rake) like some other tools, used with shallow cuts and cutting with what looks to me to include more or less a shearing action. gary ------- Date: Sat, 28 Jan 2006 16:36:15 -0000 From: "chasfred2002" Subject: Atlas ripple cut etc... Regarding a ripple in the cut. This may or may not help, but I will describe a recent problem I've had with the sheldon. I'm machining a cast iron rectangle of about three inches on a side and 10 inches long. This piece has several slots cored out of it, so the cut is intermittant on two of the sides. For a while I was having a problem with faint shadow marks of each slot telegraphing onto the metal adjacent to each. The solution turned out to me slowing way down. I'm thinking the tool setup was bouncing a bit. Giving the clapper a bit longer to settle down helped out immeasurably. So one answer may be to slow down. Other Atlas people may know better, but I suspect your machine is not oiled enough. I love shapers because they remind me of steam locomotives. However, you've got to remember the engineer always had a large oil can about. Hopefully it's not too badly siezed. Gently work it by hand and put the oil right to it, that's my advice, but I'm not an expert. When I read the post, my first reaction was "ouch!" ------- Date: Wed, 08 Feb 2006 16:15:25 -0000 From: "Ed Godwin" Subject: Keyway Cutting Well, I cut my first internal keyway (3/16" wide x 1/8" deep x 1.75" long in a 5/8" hole) on my Porter-Cable 7". I used my Volz Mechatronix clone tool holder (thanks, Art) which worked really well. Set up was with the keyway to be cut at the 6 o'clock position and cutting on the forward stroke. Tool overhang was minimal and the 0.400" diameter cutter bar was only 1" longer than the hole. Clapper was locked but I could see a little "give" against the spring on the backstroke. Overall, the shaper is tight. I finally got the keyway done successfully after several abortive tries at grinding the correct toolbit angles. Attempting to follow the various information sources on grinding shaper toolbits, this is what I did by hand-grinding (no cutter-grinder available and angles are approximate). First, a full-width bit with a radiused backrake on the face, 8 degree backrake, 4 degree end relief and 3 degree siderake, no corner radius. No matter how little vertical feed I gave it, it would eventually dig and chatter. Next try was a non-radiused backrake of 4 degrees, 4 degree end relief and 2 degree siderake, sharp corners. Better but still tended to dig and chatter. After being at this for about two hours, I then ground a new bit that was only 3/32" wide, with 2 degrees non-radiused backrake, 2 degrees lip angle and 2 degrees siderake. Cut pretty smooth with three passes to get my 3/16" wide keyway. The sources (Army manual and others) say that a slotter bit should be 4 degree backrake on a 1-1/2 radiused face, 1 degree siderake and a 4 degree lip angle. Anyone have any advice for a tyro? I've read all the posts about forward, backward, upside down, etc. but it seems to me that a little keyway like this should be easy for the machine to do if I was doing my part. Ed in Florida ------- Date: Wed, 8 Feb 2006 21:16:46 EST From: n8as1x~xxaol.com Subject: Re: Keyway Cutting 1/8 IN WIDE BIT IS MAX ON MY 7 IN. ATLAS u will have way less dig in cutting up cause the slop in the screw is taken up ...forward ,& backward ,LOCKED clapper work ...u can see a layout better if cutting on back stroke ....if u insist on cutting down, try a back cut,locked .....tighten down the slide gib & back up the feed till slop is out & u feel resistence.....just got the 3 phase idler running & the 16 in S&M shaper cleaned up ....xpect a marked improvement in keyway cutting ....BUT all texts state that keyways in a horizontal are only to be cut when no other (slotter ,broach etc.) are available... it dos beat a hacksaw, cape chisel & file ...been there... best wishes docn8as ------- Date: Sun, 12 Feb 2006 16:32:50 -0800 From: Alan Rothenbush Subject: Grinding toolbits - I give up I think I give up. I've purchased darn near every book ever written on shapers and studied every piece of online information and STILL cannot grind a shaper toolbit that cuts steel. I have a small surface grinder with a fixture to hold lathe toolbits at compound angles and can make very nice lathe cutters, but my shaper cutters (when cutting steel) are a waste of energy. (I seem to be able to cut aluminum fine, but steel is out of the question.) It's gotten so bad that I cut my last keyway on the lathe! But today, it really came to a head, when I decided to cut a slot in the bottom of my (old, steel) milling/shaper vise to match the slots in the AAMCO table, such that a piece of keystock would make for quick square alignment. I could NOT cut the slot. The best I could do was to use a lathe tool to cut a zillion Vees as the thing danced around the shop with each 1 thou cut. After an hour of screwing around, I ended up taking the vise to my 3in1 machine, where the slot was cut a wee bit narrow, in 5 minutes max, including setup time. Bringing the vise back to the shaper to cut the last 30 thou (trying to ensure squareness), another 30 minutes was spent, in disgust, the slot ending up 20 thou wide and therefore useless. Now, I REALLY want to use this machine, but it's basically an ornament, and my shop is way too small for one of those. So, before it ends up in the back yard as a toy for the squirrels and pigeons, I thought I'd try one last thing. Would someone be willing to sell me some properly ground toolbits ? 5/16" to 7/16 " Roughing, finishing, something to cut a vertical wall, something to make a flat bottom, anything at all. I just need to know if I'm wasting my time and it's time to free up the space. I'll obviously pay for all costs, including the beer I'd buy if you were local. I just need to know. Thanks, in advance. Alan Burnaby, B.C., Canada ------- Date: Sun, 12 Feb 2006 19:55:29 -0500 From: "BBT Mfg. Solutions, Inc." Subject: Re: Grinding toolbits - I give up Alan, I have a bunch to do myself. The trick seems to be a radius required on the top rake angle. Let me know what size shank you need. Tim Croan ------- Date: Sun, 12 Feb 2006 20:10:37 -0600 From: J R Williams Subject: Re: Grinding toolbits - I give up Alan: Have you checked the ram gibs and the fit of the clapper box? Something may be loose and moving causing trouble. The cutting edge should be sharp and honed to a good edge. JRW ------- Date: Mon, 13 Feb 2006 13:46:40 -0000 From: "Ed Godwin" Subject: Re: Grinding toolbits - I give up Alan, I think I'm with JR on this one. I've cut steel with a really poorly ground lathe bit - just one I had bouncing around in the box with dinged edges. If you can grind lathe bits, you can do shaper bits, too. So, it's probably something else. Since the forces cutting steel are much greater than aluminum, it's probably something loose. I had to make a new clapper and pin for mine and there's lots of areas where a shaper can be "loose" and cause trouble. Good luck and don't give the squirrels another reason to hang around. Ed in Florida ------- Date: Mon, 13 Feb 2006 23:46:27 -0000 From: "Geoff Kingma" Subject: Re: Grinding toolbits - I give up In the beginning, when I was a total novice with my newly aquired Ammco, I put a brazed carbide toolbit (AR6, I think) in the shaper and was amazed at the finish. And the shaper was worn out. The clapper box however, was in good shape - I have not done anything to it to date. I can detect little or no play in the tapered pin on the clapperbox and the clapper itself is pretty snug in the box. Theoretically, carbide tipped tools have too little backrake and too much clearance for a shaper. Also, do you have the toolslide approximately level with the toolhead holder. The manual says to try and be within +/- 3/8" of level. Another thing I do before cutting is to lock the table support, release the elevating crank lever pressure then lock the crossrail. Regards, Geoff ------- Date: Tue, 14 Feb 2006 13:09:18 -0000 From: "johann_ohnesorg" Subject: Re: Grinding toolbits - I give up Hy Alan, I agree with the others, there´s no problem with your bits, the problem is hidden somewhere in the machine. Cast iron like the vise should be a breeze for the shaper. Are the gibs snug? On my shaper, some parts were stored away until I aquired it. The seller put them back on in advance to my arrival...and only snug up the screws with the wrench. Took me a while to figure it out, because 95% of the screws were torqued the right way. Got a bad finish from this, too. Another possibility is you´re missing a part which leads to excessive play in the machine. Like a gib or somthing like this. There´s an exploded view in the files section. On my shaper, I got a decent finish with an out of the box lathe blank, only 7° rake. Depth of cut is up to 1/8th of an inch. Finish is still o.k. How big do you grind your tools? Maybe you go too big for the small machine! Get an indicator, mount it on the table, set it on clapper, ram and god knows where else and use force to move the parts sidewards, upwards, downwards. Watch the dial indicator. If you have a big movement somewhere, think why. Get someone over who knows this kind of machine. Maybe he can solve the problem... model engineers would be my first guess. Take a piece of steel, put it in the vise, work on it with the shaper. Put it on the scanner, make a picture of your misery and post in the metal shaper pix group. The pattern the tool makes says a lot about the machine. Like a fingerprint ;) Search the shaper faq and the columns by Kay Fisher, NEMES society. There´s a rework of an Ammco 7", maybe this one helps you. Cheers, Johann Ps.: If the way was not that far, I would stop by for a beer... ------- Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2006 05:40:24 -0700 (PDT) From: ole guy Subject: Re: Use of a Shaper [Metal_Shapers] Mark wrote: > Enough about collecting and refurbishing shapers. > Do any of you actually use your shapers? > What do you use them for? I plan to use one for facing and > squaring up blocks and occasional cutting of large key ways. > Any other good uses? Mark, I use mine for almost everything I used to do with my mill. The finish is better. I use it to make v-blocks, tool holders for my lathes, keyways, spline shafts for the farm machinery for my neighbors, even weird gears for the same. I could go on, but I think you get the picture. All the Best oleguy2000 ------- Date: Thu, 06 Apr 2006 18:01:55 -0000 From: "R. Wade Brooks" Subject: Re: Use of a Shaper > Any other good uses? > Are they like using a power hacksaw vs a band saw > gets the job done in 10 times is time. Mark Mark: Shapers and Power hacksaws may be slower. But now assume I gave you a 4 inch cube of metal, and that I placed a 1/2 inch wide tape strip on all four edges of all six cube faces. I then ask you to remove all the metal that is not covered by the tape. You could go to a drill press and drill four holes in each face. You could go to the power hacksaw and insert the blade through one hole and cut to another. You can then go to the shaper and make nice clean flat inside edges. And when you are done I would be able to hand you a 2.9" cube and you could insert it in and withdraw it from any face. Now given a drill press, bandsaw, and a mill, how are you going to accomplish the same task? ------- Date: Thu, 06 Apr 2006 18:31:45 -0000 From: "Irby Jones" Subject: Re: Use of a Shaper Ah, the perennial question - what can a shaper be used for? Go to message #11154. It answers your question and mentions the real reason people like shapers - they are just plain fascinating to watch! Irby in VA P.S. And of course I HAVE to mention that there is another old machine that even beats a shaper in being fascinating to watch...but they are much, much harder to get ahold of... My wife wanted a Cuckoo clock, and she wanted it mounted on the wall to the right of and behind the TV. After putting it there I had to move it, it interfered with her TV viewing... She could not watch both at the same time. I guess that is why the shaper stays in the garage? ------- Date: Thu, 06 Apr 2006 19:59:15 -0000 From: "Irby Jones" Subject: Re: Use of a Shaper I got sidetracked on my post about shaper uses other than flat surfaces and key ways, and didn't mention some other uses. You can cut nice dovetails with a shaper, and they turn out smoother than using a mill. The shaper's $3 single point tool also beats a $60 dovetail cutter! You can use those dovetail parts any way your imagination permits, from making quick change tool holders to your own slides. One good web site on cutting dovetails is at http://www.artfulbodger.net/docs/shaper/dovetail/index.html You can also cut T-slots with a shaper, but they are tricky. Before milling machines became prevalent, shapers and planers cut T-slots all the time. An old book on shapers will explain exactly how to cut these. Again, the $3 shaper tool beats buying a $50 T-slot cutter. If you need some T-slot nuts, you can make them on the shaper easily. A friend of mine used his shaper to repair a 19th century brass telescope brass gear rack for moving the focus. He cut the rack teeth and the concave side of the rack that fit onto the circular telescope barrel all on his shaper. He made a radius cutting tool holder to cut the concave surface. Irby in VA ------- Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2006 12:59:55 -0700 From: Subject: Re: Use of a Shaper..... dentures My shaper is setting in storage, because of a move; but it's done more than its share of work for me, and it's not for sale! Some low life POS stole its little cousin the Atlas 7B. The longest ongoing job was to make clamp jaws to close 4" HP gas line for the local utility district. Their fabricator would rough the 1-1/4 plates out on a band saw, then machine. I bid the job quicker, not cheaper per hour. The Rockford 28" Hydraulic took a 24" billet and carved it to near net shape following a pattern. That was then cut into plates, just like slicing bread on the Marvel 8 before being loaded up on the mill to have the various hydraulic details machined in. For the same metropolis, their local waste disposal agency had a top feed continuous duty incinerator that took biological waste. On occasion the hopper door would succeed in lifting a garbage truck when drivers got things a bit out of sequence. When that happened the Nuttal Gear drive would usually shed a tooth from a very large bull gear... and need a little emergency dental work. I would weld up the damage and recut the tooth... and the facility manager would just grin. Replacement from Nuttal Gear took months, and a rail car ride to the west coast the Rockford tooth transplant took a couple hours. Time savings was nothing compared to the fines for not having the facility open and certified. To that, we can add the usual suspects: Cut a blind keyway here Deck a cyl head there Knurl a flat surface once or twice Get a router adapted to it's clapper and cut and rabbit acrylic to length, unattended... mostly. Cyclotronguy ------- Date: Fri, 07 Apr 2006 19:06:42 -0000 From: "Art Volz" Subject: Re: x~xx Irby, concerning T-slots > Which book explains how to cut t-slots? Johann & Irby-- It's Job #21, pages 51 & 52, of Lindsay Pub's reprint (if you don't have the original) of J.W. Barritt's "Shaper Operations". (I have the originals, but this was just easier to lay my hands onto at the present time.) The "T"-slotting tools will have to be hand forged to make two "L" shaped tools to cut first one side of the "T" and then the other. Before "crossing the T", of course, the slot itself must be cut using a parting tool of sufficient width. Additional instructions, and clear illustrations of the "L" tool needed, are in one-half of "Duplex's" (ie Ian Bradley--the other half was Norman F. Hallows; anyone know for sure who "Base Circle" was?): --Ian Bradley, "The Shaping Machine", page 91 & Fig. 18. --Ian Bradley, "Shaping Machine & Lathe Tools", p. 54-55. In this shaping hobby, an extensive self-researched & self-built library is necessary for, as Carlyle famously stated: "The true university is a collection of books." Art (Houston) ------- Date: Fri, 07 Apr 2006 21:12:13 +0200 From: Maarten van Veen Subject: Re: x~xx Irby, concerning T-slots Johann: You could also see page 375 of the latest "Model Engineer", number 4270. They explain milling T slots and suggest to make the centre bit slightly deeper (ca 1 mm or 0.03"). I think this would also apply to shaping the T slot. If you need the sketch, let me know. Maarten ------- Date: Fri, 07 Apr 2006 19:25:03 -0000 From: "Irby Jones" Subject: Re: x~xx Irby, concerning T-slots Ah, the center of the T-slots on my Lagan shaper are cut deeper. Is that to give some clearance for the cutter? Or is it to allow a little of a screw to extend past a T-slot nut and not catch on the bottom, jaming the nut? The latter is a great way to ruin (open up) a T-slot! I've never done it but I've seen the results. Irby -------- Date: Fri, 07 Apr 2006 21:31:00 +0200 From: Maarten van Veen Subject: Re: Re: x~xx Irby, concerning T-slots The caption under the sketch reads : "mill the bolt shank slot about 0.03"'1 mm) deeper to the dotted line . This will allow the tee slot milling cutter to cut more freely. During use, the nuts and bolts will slide into position easily as any fine swarf etc will drop into the dotted space." Sounds logical. Maarten ------- Date: Fri, 07 Apr 2006 19:37:19 -0000 From: "Irby Jones" Subject: Re: x~xx Irby, concerning T-slots That makes good sense! I've used T-slot cutters and they just love to get the cuttings jammed up under themselves! I'll have to use that trick next time I use T-slot cutters. Irby ------- Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2006 17:17:49 EDT From: n8as1x~xxaol.com Subject: Re: x~xx Irby, concerning T-slots clapper shud be lifted out & above the slot on the return ...can be done manually if run slo enuf ,or a piece of door hinge applied to rear of tool or a stiff piece of leather, whatever so that t slot cutter is raised out of slot ... best wishes docn8as ------- Date: Fri, 07 Apr 2006 22:32:34 -0000 From: "speedphoto300" Subject: Re: x~xx Irby, concerning T-slots The way I saw it done used a leather flap behind the tool, you need to allow extra travel on the return to let the clapper back down. Joe ------- Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2006 13:50:32 -0000 From: "yaglejpner" Subject: Re: Use of a Shaper..... dentures [Metal_Shapers] Cyclotronguy! I am very interested in the process of knurling on a shaper. When I bought my little shaper, I got this knurling tool as well, that a former owner had made, but I am not sure how to get it right. You can see my knurling tool lying on the machines tray in this photo: http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c130/Hanswas2/Shaperlille3.jpg Regards Hans ------- Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2006 09:44:41 -0700 From: Subject: Re: Re: Use of a Shaper..... dentures Hans: Knurling on a shaper puts quite a lot of stress in the shaper knee ...usually the table has a support foot to counteract this force. You will wish to look at your shaper carefully, to make sure that it will actually take this force. Mine is a bit of a brute, so it wasn't an issue. In your case and just for arguendo, let's say it does. Ok, from personal experience on the shaper you can easily knurl flat surfaces. You will have to do this with a single knurling tool, as I have no idea how one would get twin knurls to track in time with one another. The actual process works pretty much like one might imagine. This is a cold flowing process, so don't forget to lube the work, knurl roll and roll pin. If your shaper isn't hell for stout, you will need to impress the knurl in several passes. As far as I know this will require that you lock the clapper box, such that you don't get tool retraction. I am fortunate in that my shaper is robust enough that I can generate enough force to knurl a flat surface in a single pass. A couple passes with fine table feed and you can get a straight knurl a bit wider than the knurl roll... how much wider I cannot say. As for round work, I've seen it done in production, though I have never done this myself... fascinating almost hypnotic to watch. This was a continuous feed... stock in one side, knurled pins out the other type of operation. The observed salient points are as follows. Presume there was quite a bit I didn't catch. Two narrow flat plates, one mounted to the table, the other to the ram. Plates directly above and almost parallel to one another. One of the plates was hardened with the knurl pattern impressed, the other quite a bit softer, and showing a bit of the knurl pattern... I presume from the pins that were being fed through. Didn't pick up on the fine points of the stock feed. The infeed end of the plates spaced such that the pins make their way into the roll press. At the outfeed end the plates are closer together, by just enough. The bottom plate was rotated about 15 degrees clockwise. I was told this assisted the pin through put. Reminds me of "Wallace and Grommet" Chickens go in, Pies come out. Cyclotronguy ------- Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2006 09:42:33 -0000 From: "yaglejpner" Subject: Re: Use of a Shaper..... dentures Thank you very much for the explanation. I have only tried to knurl brass, it didn't look very good. Next time I will try to lock the clapper box. Still, it seems to me, that the knurling tool will "come out of timing" when rolling outside, "past the surface". I will try a run avoiding this too. ------- Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2006 08:25:18 -0700 From: Subject: Re: Re: Use of a Shaper..... dentures Don't let the tool roll outside of the stock, or you will absolutely lose timing... sorry, forgot to mention that. Remember the lube thing. Have had best luck on brass knurling (in the shaper only) with ("Mink Oil, paste type water proofing paste for shoes... a hint provided by a fellow I know who deep draws brass into hardened steel dies from coined blanks. Depends upon how hard the brass is btw. Half hard is ok, full hard is likely to just have the knurls crumble away. Regards Cyclotronguy ------- internal keyway cutting [Metal_Shapers] Posted by: "rvannatta" robertx~xxvannattabros.com Date: Mon Jun 19, 2006 10:41 pm (PDT) I have a question about the most suitable way to cut internal keyways with a shaper. I've cut external keyways (as on a shaft) using a combination of traditional shaper cutting tools, finishing the job by making a plunge cut with both a left handed and a right handed cutter. However I have been frustrated in cutting an internal keyway inside a relavitely small hole such as in a gear or pulley. My impression is that a broach would be the proper tool to accomplish this with, but not having a specific broaching machine, I'm wondering if this can't be accomplished with a shaper --- and if so how.--- are there push broaches that can be pushed by a shaper for keyways??? ------- Re: internal keyway cutting Posted by: "Art Volz" volzmechatronicx~xxyahoo.com Date: Mon Jun 19, 2006 10:50 pm (PDT) Robert-- Try using the SEARCH box with keywords "keyway cutting". Art (Houston) ------- Re: internal keyway cutting Posted by: "rvannatta" robertx~xxvannattabros.com Date: Mon Jun 19, 2006 11:10 pm (PDT) thanks, I should have thought of that. --- i.e. looking harder at the historic messages. What I gather from the messages is that you need a boring bar style holder and that you 'go after it' like you would an external key slot, and that some have locked the clapper and pulled the keyways. I'll have to check to see if the clapper locks on my G & E to try that, but the first mission is to build a smaller boring bar style cutter. I've got one, but it is way too big. the keyway I need to cut is in a 1" diameter hole, and my 'boring bar' is somewhat larger than that. ------- Re: internal keyway cutting Posted by: "daveinnmi" daveinnmix~xxyahoo.com Date: Tue Jun 20, 2006 5:06 am (PDT) I think the beauty of the shaper is its simplicity. My internal key way cutter holder is pretty crude. I turned and bored a sleeve to fit the boring bar and welded it to some CRS that fit in the lantern style tool holder. I get along fine with the clapper box clapping. ------- Re: internal keyway cutting Posted by: "rvannatta" robertx~xxvannattabros.com Date: Tue Jun 20, 2006 5:25 am (PDT) > I get along fine with the clapper box clapping. I have been wondering what happens if you adapt a keyway broach for use in a shaper---- Either by taking a boring by style adapter and drilling a hole in the end of it and sticking a broach in, or if that didn't work, making a 'hack saw shaped boring bar broach holder' which would support both ends of the broach cutter. ------- Re: internal keyway cutting Posted by: "Ed Godwin" eng4turnsx~xxyahoo.com Date: Tue Jun 20, 2006 8:20 am (PDT) I recently cut several internal 3/16 keyways in both steel and aluminum pulleys for 5/8 shafts. The lengths of these keyways ranged form 2 to 3 inches. I used my version of the VolzMechatronix tool holder with several lengths of tool bars. Ground the bits to about a 0.080" width and just long enough to provide clearance for the depth required (don't forget about the shaft hole curvature). It's important to have your bar as big as possible but in such small holes you have to fiddle with the bit and the bar size to get it right. I not only locked the clapper, but I jammed some shim stock behind the clapper body to jam the clapper against its pin to prevent side to side rocking. A tiny little bit of slop of the clapper against its mating side walls or in the pin hole will be magnified out at the end of a 4 or 5-inch tool bar. Keyways came out great and I only broke two bits before I got everything right. BTW, this was done on a PC7. Ed in Florida ------- Re: Big work on small shaper [Metal_Shapers] Posted by: "jmartin957x~xxaol.com" Date: Mon Jul 17, 2006 4:04 pm (PDT) In a message dated 7/17/06, pnowakx~xxscotforge.com writes: > I am new to the list and new to shapers. I recently purchased a 14" Prema shaper to complement my forging equipment. I am wondering how much weight can be place on the table of a machine this size. The table itself is about 9x13. I am contemplating a job that would weigh about 450 lbs, and start as a block 14.25" x 6.25" x 18". I would have to bolt some extensions to each side of the table to hold down the work. Second, is it possible to machine slots/dovetails/ V type shapes that are longer than the stroke of the shaper by doing one side then turing the work end for end and machining the second half, or would you end up with an uneven surface? Thanks. Patrick < I don't know the Prema shaper and can't say if 450 pounds is too much for it - that one will probably be up to you. Within any size range there are lighter machines and there are heavier machines. If yours is one of the heavier ones - and especially if it has a sliding foot support at the front of the table - it may be capable of that weight. Normally, your cut length has to be less that the maximum stroke, because you need relief areas at the beginning and end of the cut. urning the workpiece around would be of no help. However... if the cut you need is only a bit longer than the stroke, and the ram position is adjustable, you may be able to cut it without repositioning the workpiece. If you take a couple of dead end cuts, then crank the table back and reposition the ram to cut further out on the work, you might be able to cut a piece longer than the stroke. It will be slow, as you'll constantly be repositioning the ram, but it might work. Certainly, it would be preferable to making dead end cuts and repositioning the workpiece. That said, I haven't tried it myself. Seems like it should work, though. John Martin ------- Re: Big work on small shaper Posted by: "Richard Sutcliffe" ras1x~xxuniserve.com Date: Wed Jul 19, 2006 12:08 am (PDT) An alternative would be to drill a hole near the center of the required slot's length. The hole would have to be deeper then the slot depth, and a diameter greater than the slot's width. The first part of the slot would need careful setup so the tool bit doesn't overrun the hole, and the hole would have to be kept clear of swarf - perhaps keep the air dusting gun handy. Cut the first half of the slot, then reposition the ram and cut the second half until it matches the first half. You would have the remains of the drilled hole at the center of the slot, but in most cases it should not interfere with use of the slot. Again, I haven't tried it, but recall having read it somewhere, years ago. Dick ------- Re: Looking for a shaper [Metal_Shapers] Posted by: "gdstorrick" storrickx~xxconcentric.net Date: Mon Dec 11, 2006 2:45 pm ((PST)) Hey Rick, I know you're just having fun with us. I bought an Atlas 7 (not even a 7B) a couple years ago and then a 20" G&E nine days later. They're both fun. The G&E has power and capacity, but deserves real respect: it has some real punch (I've shattered 1" tool bits with it). Too bad it doesn't have a universal table. As for the Atlas, well, I use it all the time. It lets me quickly set up tiny jobs and provides a little more finesse for off-hand work. I haven't gotten nice finishes on the G&E yet, but I suspect that the junk steel that I've cut is the reason. It ploughs rather than cuts. Tools are sharp, but maybe I'd do better with faster speeds. My big plates, though, don't face mill well either, even with carbide, so I think its the steel. Someday, with some good steel, I'll know for sure. All that matters is having fun. And someday I'll get a bigger shaper with a Universal table..... Gary ------- Re: Looking for a shaper Posted by: "n8as1x~xxaol.com" Date: Mon Dec 11, 2006 10:16 pm ((PST)) a shear grind bit w/ .005 or less finish cut gives a near surface ground finish on plain old 1018 can literally see a fingernail reflection.....if u ground a round nose bit, a bit w/ a 3-4 in radius on end , w/ back rake & cleraqnce , & then rotated it c/clockwise 60 deg. so u have fierce NEG. side rake cutting to the left, u have it ....this finish needs no grinding /filing/ polishing best wishes docn8as ps ...also for a lathe ...my 1895 14 in has fixed belt feeds,minimum .007 & i have a smooth ridge free finish using this bit , better than a 1/32 FLAT point , which is next best .... ------- Re: Looking for a shaper Posted by: "Mario L Vitale" mariol.vitalex~xxatt.net Date: Tue Dec 12, 2006 7:53 am ((PST)) I'm not sure I followed that description exactly, but it sounds kinda like what I use. Look at the photo section under "Mario's Stuff" to see a picture of the cutter. The part in the picture is aluminum, but it does a very nice job in steel as well. Note, before I take a finish cut (of around .005") I stone the cutter to make sure it's nice and sharp. Mario ------- Re: Tool grind and setup [Metal_Shapers] Posted by: "Irby Jones" irbyratx~xxcox.net irbyrat Date: Sun Dec 17, 2006 5:48 am ((PST)) > Sorry, not following your description. Could you possibly post pics > of tool and setup? Would love to see lathe tool also. There are photos and a description of the shaper finishing tool like Doc described on this web page: http://tinyurl.com/yehvjz And Mario posted a photo of one here: http://tinyurl.com/yzn64g Irby ------- Re: Finish Tool Grind Shape Posted by: "John A. Landry" gyropilotx~xxautorotation.net Date: Tue Dec 19, 2006 10:30 pm ((PST)) On Tue, 19 Dec 2006 19:54:24 +0000, Clive Foster said: >Will somebody Please, Please publish full shape and grind angles for >the shear type finishing tool. As promised... The drawing: http://www.metalworking.com/dropbox/ShaperFinishingTool.jpg Some photos: http://www.metalworking.com/dropbox/ShaperFinishingTool-1.jpg http://www.metalworking.com/dropbox/ShaperFinishingTool-2.jpg A brief video of the tool in action taking a 0.005" deep cut. Note how it "peels" off a thin spiral of metal rather than producing a more typical curl: http://www.metalworking.com/dropbox/ShaperFinishingTool.mpg Enjoy, John L. ------- Gouging at start of cut [Metal_Shapers] Posted by: "hateful_howard" hateful_howardx~xxyahoo.ca Date: Wed Jan 24, 2007 9:49 pm ((PST)) I'm squaring up a block of 4.5" square CRS. I am cutting vertically down. At the top 1" of the block some of the cuts start by gouging out a deep and wider cut than the 10 or 15 thou that I set the cut for. The gouges are about a quarter inch long and about 1/8" wide. The tool then cuts fine for the rest of the stroke. The tool has been ground according to drawings for cutting vertical. The machine will also sometimes do this when cutting horizontal. The machine is a 14" Elliott Invicta 2MR. Any suggestions? ------- Re: Gouging at start of cut Posted by: "n8as1x~xxaol.com" n8as1x~xxaol.com Date: Wed Jan 24, 2007 11:13 pm ((PST)) try turning the topslide further down than needed & then back up to the desired cut ,,then lock the slide & remember the dial for the next cut (replace a gib screw w/ a thumb screw if u dont have a lock)...this takes out the slack ...when not done , the slide starts out cutting at the bottom of the slack ,& then is driven back up some due to the force of the cut & the slop in the screw/nut .........this is the same as taking out the slack in the x feed of the lathe when backing out the slide for a shallower cut .....a pain, but necessary ..... best wishes docn8as ------- Re: Gouging at start of cut Posted by: "william williams" BWMSBLDRx~xxPeoplePC.com Date: Thu Jan 25, 2007 11:19 am ((PST)) The first thing to look at IMHO would be play in the system (slides, etc.) that is allowing a dig in until an equilibrium is established in the cutting process. This behavior is hard to deal with and to some extent unavoidable. A front rake on the tool that brings the cutting edge into the work more gradually can help to spread the onset of the cutting loads over a longer time period thus reducing the tendancy to dig in initially. Bill in Boulder, "Engineering as an Art Form!" ------- Re: Gouging at start of cut Posted by: "william williams" BWMSBLDRx~xxPeoplePC.com Date: Fri Jan 26, 2007 5:47 am ((PST)) reducing the tendancy to dig in initially.> I may have had my lathe thinking cap on at this point as I am not sure of my terminology at this point! What is meant is that the tool bit should angle back from the point of initial contact such that the application of cutting loads is more gradual as the tool moves deeper into the cut! Any clearer? Bill in Boulder ------- Gouging at start of cut Posted by: "Richard Sutcliffe" ras1x~xxuniserve.com Date: Sun Jan 28, 2007 9:27 pm ((PST)) > Are you sure its negative? top rake you describe?, don't you mean > positive top rake?, I think that is what (Richard or Bill) is > describing below, I have not been following these posts up to now > so I may be missing the point, if so my apologies to all. Edmund To me negative rake is where the chip has to make more than a 90 degree turn as it comes away from the work piece. Brass would use a slightly negative back rake. Aluminum would use a fairly positive back rake. With a shaper the weight of the tool post slide tends to make it want to creep down. A positive back rake will tend to pull the tool and slide down unless the slide is locked. Even so a lathe type tool holder will spring down and cause the tool bit to tend to dig in. Many small shaper owners are using a lathe tool holder, as many small shaper users have to do as the shaper tool holder is missing. Since the tool holder shanks are the same size, why not? But the geometry is wrong with the built in back rake on the lathe tool holder, while the shaper tool holder has neutral back rake. The negative rake is good for heavy cuts; then a positive rake can be used for finishing, with the slide locked and the light cut will not cause the lathe type tool holder to spring. Correct me if my thinking is off. Dick 7"Atlas owner. ------- Re: Gouging at start of cut Posted by: "hateful_howard" hateful_howardx~xxyahoo.ca Date: Sun Jan 28, 2007 9:28 pm ((PST)) I tightened the gibs on the tool slide and moved it closer to the work at the beginning of the stroke. Problem solved. Thanks for the input folks. ------- Re: Gouging at start of cut Posted by: "Clive Foster" clive_fosterx~xxtalk21.com Date: Mon Jan 29, 2007 11:57 am ((PST)) Assuming that the tool feed slide has the usual push screw adjustment it would be worth taking a very critical look at the condition of the adjuster screw points and the corresponding dimples. There is a fairly large tilting leverage on the slides and dovetails so if the machine has been run with the gibs incorrectly adjusted the screw ends and dimples could have been damaged giving potential for odd effects when the load comes on. For example consider the case where the upper screws are a bit loose and the bottom one a bit tight. When operating the screw the slide feels right and hand pushing / pulling doesn't show any discernible rock. However the larger forces on starting the cut tilt the slide slightly until all the clearance is taken up whereupon it settles properly into the cut. This slight tilting will drag the screw points around in the less than tight" upper dimples damaging both point and dimple. This situation gets progressively worse and the damage prevents sensible, accurate adjustment. Lock screws are usually between the bottom two adjusters so locking the gib doesn't really help as there is still a pivot point low down. If you have any doubt as to condition it would be worth remaking the dimples to have proper conical sided holes and replacing the screws with ball ended ones. Such modification applied to abused lathe slides are known to considerably improve performance, allowing the slide to be operated with tighter clearances for the same turning force, and adjustability. On lathe slides it's normal to add a locating dowel to prevent the gib trying to moving sideways as the slide is operated. This extra refinement may not be necessary on a shaper slide. Conical holes are easily produced with a common slocombe centre drill. With a bit of applied ingenuity the slide assembly itself can be used to self jig things during the operation. If you consider the action of ball ended screws working in axially aligned conical holes on an inclined substrate such as a gib strip it's clear that the gib will be both pushed in and wedged upwards into the base of the female dovetail. This balance of forces is obviously more secure than a simple in line push against the male dovetail. Some time ago I applied these mods to a large milling vice which had lost its proper gib and had a strip of metal substituted. The performance of the modified vice was much better than "factory" and it proved virtually impossible to get the adjusting screws tight enough by proper, equal, adjustment to prevent the side moving. Naturally over-tightening a single screw locked it nicely. HTH Clive ------- Newbie with a Ammco shaper [Metal_Shapers] Posted by: "richard jensen" richardviperx~xxhotmail.com Date: Mon Mar 5, 2007 8:23 am ((PST)) Hello, I've been lurking for a while, and reading all I can find about shapers. I bought a Ammco shaper here a couple of weeks ago, finaly got it home and started checking it out. I'm building a base cabinet kinda like the original wooden "portable" cabinet that could be ordered with them, but mine will be made from bed frame rails and sheet metal /plywood. I put a chunk of scrap in the vise and after lubing everything up,(copies of the Delta manual where a godsend), I put a chunk of scrap in and started "playing". I'm happy with it so far. It will need a few things changed. I need to get a few oil cups replaced, new wipers for the ram, new belts, some Mobile Vactra way oil. I also want to set down and really dial out all surfaces and adjust any thing that's out of square. I've got my first 2 projects lined out for it already, an inside key way in a 4 groove pully for my #2 Cincinnati mill. From there I'll start making tooling and accessories for it. My first question is on the tool for the internal keyway. Do you grind a tool so you can cut the keyway so you're cutting the full width, or do you make it smaller and cut part of the width, then move to cut the rest of the keyway? Thanks! Richard ------- Re: Newbie with a Ammco shaper Posted by: "Geoff Kingma" gkingmax~xxinterlog.com Date: Mon Mar 5, 2007 4:09 pm ((PST)) The experience I've had with my Ammco is that it is better to make a narrower tool bit. This is especially true on small diameter (< 3/4") holes since the tool holder will deflect. I just recently put a 3/16" keyway in a 5/8" diam hole and used a 1/8" wide bit. I haven't yet mastered the technique so my slots are a bit "ragged"!!! Geoff ------- Re: Newbie with a Ammco shaper Posted by: "n8as1x~xxaol.com" n8as1x~xxaol.com Date: Mon Mar 5, 2007 6:04 pm ((PST)) i wud first center the tool so the edges touch the segment of the bore evenly ,& just mark out the outside lines w/ a full width bit w/ a center half moon ground out ..then switch to an 1/8 in bit & take out the inbetween to abt .020 of the now marked limits...then finish w/ the full width ,relieved center bit aligned w./ ur previous marks ..works for me & .shud be clean this way ( courtesy doug king , Canadian "machienen meister ") best wishes docn8as ------- Re: Newbie with a Ammco shaper Posted by: "jmcshea41" jmcshea41x~xxyahoo.com Date: Mon Mar 5, 2007 10:59 pm ((PST)) I have had an easier time making the toolbit about one third finish width; make three full depth passes. Also if you are feeding down with head, snug the slide so tool doesn't suck down. john ------- Re: Newbie with a Ammco shaper Posted by: "Richard Sutcliffe" ras1x~xxuniserve.com Date: Mon Mar 5, 2007 11:00 pm ((PST)) Admittedly it is not in a hole, but I recently cut some slots about 0.300' wide by 0.75" deep in cast iron. I used a 3/32" parting tool and a down feed of approximately 0.020" per stroke down one side of the slot for about 1/8", then backed off, moved to the other side of the slot and repeated the process until I was about 1/8" below the previous cut. Kept repeating this until I was at depth. I locked the clapper, even though it was set in a vertical position. There were four parts to do, and all came out fine. I had to stone the cutting edge once in the four parts. Dick 7"Atlas owner. ------- NOTE TO FILE: Cutting Keyways. There is an interesting post found here in the "AMMCO Shaper" file for Oct 22, 2007 titled "Some lengthy blather about cutting keyways." Could be adapted to other machines. ------- shaper stuffs [Metal_Shapers] Posted by: "Jessie" rebel307x~xxbellsouth.net Date: Sat Dec 8, 2007 5:45 pm ((PST)) I got my shaper back togather and running purdy good. I went to work on my locomotive project. Things were going well. I started on my axle boxes and started a slot. I got the slot to depth, then started working on getting it to the right width. My step brother calls me then. I spent a half hour on the fone with him then went back to work. When I got finished, I learned the distraction messed me up. I put the slot in the wrong place. I had it backwards. Oh well, machining and talking on the fone dont mix. Kinda like drinking and driving. Jessie ------- Re: shaper stuffs Posted by: "J R Williams" jrwillmsx~xxhal-pc.org Date: Sat Dec 8, 2007 5:56 pm ((PST)) One more good reason to take time to use layout marking fluid and carefully mark the cut lines or holes in the correct location before cutting metal. It may take a little time but it is time well spent in completing a good project, not one for the scrap pile. JRW ------- Re: Shaper gauges [Metal_Shapers] Posted by: "Richard Wilson" rwilsonx~xxrhwspn5.com Date: Tue Dec 18, 2007 2:29 am ((PST)) On 18 December 2007, Michael Green wrote: >> Pardon my ignorance, but can anybody tell me the use of things advertised every so often on eBay as a shaper gage (gauge). It looks like a triangle with a bubble level on it, with a smaller triangular piece that moves up and down. Until looking on eBay I never knew they existed. Are they worth having? Michael << They are for setting the height of the tool from the shaper table. The toolroom would have set the gauge to the correct height, then all the semi-skilled operator had to do was to bolt the work to the table, set the tool to the gauge, and start cutting. Usefulness depends on what you are doing. I have one and find it handy sometimes when I'm facing down a boss in the middle of a casting, and can't directly measure the height without taking the casting off. The small triangular piece that moves up and down should have a hole in it to take rods of different lengths, depending on what height you are trying to set. Richard Wilson ------- Re: Shaper gauges Posted by: "Lloyd Anderson" lastolddogx~xxsbcglobal.net Date: Tue Dec 18, 2007 9:26 am ((PST)) Sometimes refered to as 'Planer Gauge', same use, same tool. I use mine on the shaper, and I've used it to set the depth stop on my drill press and the mill for quick work or setting the DRO to zero at a known height. Use it to dial in initial settings on the surface grinder with 'sacrificial' posts. Lloyd ------- Re: Shaper gauges Posted by: "William Abernathy" williamx~xxinch.com Date: Tue Dec 18, 2007 1:28 pm ((PST)) I use mine to set the tool height on my Barker PM horizontal mill. This particular machine is set up as a keyseat cutter, and has no micrometer handles, using, instead, rack-and-pinion handles to move the three axes. To achieve an accurate cut, I need to set the tool height using a height gauge on the surface plate, transfer this measurement to the shaper gauge, then use the shaper gauge to set the height stop on the horizontal mill. It's not easy, but it works. William A. ------- Re: Shaper gauges Posted by: "Richard Sutcliffe" ras1x~xxuniserve.com Date: Wed Dec 19, 2007 8:54 pm ((PST)) Go to http://www.cnczone.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=34521 and scroll down the page. A number of comments from those who use these gages (gauges). Dick ------- Re: Shaper gauges Posted by: "frankdorion" fdorionx~xxcomcast.net Date: Thu Dec 20, 2007 8:48 am ((PST)) Chris: You may want to look for a Starrett Model 995 Universal Gage. It is a planer gage with a couple of bells and whistles that give it additional capabilities. In particular, this gage has the highly desirable fine adjustment feature which is lacking in other planer gages. Probably the best way to learn about this gage is to see the appropriate page of Starrett's catalog which is here: http://catalog.starrett.com/catalog/catalog/groupf.asp? GrpTab=Feature&GroupID=489 New, the Model 995 sells for several hundred dollars, but I sold an extra one I had on on eBay last month, new condition, and it brought only $68, so they are affordable. Frank ------- Re: cuting an internal keyway [Metal_Shapers] Posted by: "n8as1x~xxaol.com" Date: Tue Jan 15, 2008 6:29 pm ((PST)) 1/15/2008, graham_ex~xxsbcglobal.net writes: >any recommendation as to where I could get a boring bar type holder? >I see Armstrong types going on e-bay for $60-$90 which seem like a >lot. There is a part of me that just want's to get a straight holder >from Enco for less than $20, cut off the end and weld on some kind of >bar clamp onto it. o k . hoping some one else wud chime in ,but here goes..... one of the reasons this stuff brings so much on ebay , is because for 2 generations , we have been mechandised to the point where we believe that anything worth while must be purchased....from before WW 2 , i still remember bringing home bent nails from the framing sites so that i cud build something ......now, to the point : serious USERS of a shaper for internal key way work remove the tool post & turn up a boring bar w/ a flange on the end to seat in the clapper & some thrds /nut in front of clapper to secure it ..this is how they were cut in repair shop for a monstrous hi speed paper mill in canada ..... 45 repair machinists ( courtesy doug king )...the bar has a 90 deg slot in front for the bit ....i use 3/16 sq most of the time on the atlas 7 , which does not like more than a .125 cut ...my S&M 16in HD will handle a 1/4 in bit , and u really dont want more bit ....i drill a hole 1/32 or so oversize , chamfer the edge & just plain BEAT a 3/16 bit thru , a tad file & it works fine ...have done this up to .450 sq. ...u can press , tap out ,file & tap in again ( press till done ) or as i said , just beat it thru w/ a squared off ,no relief needed ,end...eye protection ,pls ( steel hammer on hardened steel .(.dont let anyone see u ).grub screw in end of boring bar...a round hole will hold a sq bit just fine , if aesthetics dont bother u ..... grub screw jams ths edges in & makes a seat ..i made my bar 2 piece ,a front bar w/ a 1/2 in shank & the female bolted to the clapper , so i can change bars w/ out doing the whole scene again ....ALSO they set up an angle plate w/ a slot /hole for the bar to go thru & the gear or whatever is clamped to the angle plate , the vise being removed.,.gives a better seat &.the vise usually gets in the way anyway... most cut UP,& forward w/ the clapper LOCKED ....reason is when cutting down forward , any slop in screw & it tends to DIG IN ..( any critical surface cutting will require u to turn slide down beyond the cut & then back up to take the slop out ...even w.. a locked slide , i have had it move unless this is done ...just like the xslide on ur lathe , when changing direction unless there is ZERO slop .....some will cut down & BACK w/ a locked clapper this way , u can see ur layout MUCH better , & the bit wants to ride UP rather than down ..& some just cut down & forward , how , I DONT KNOW .....maybe w/ a slide gib so tight it barely moves ..i get lousy results this way NOW ...if all this overwhelms , get a piece of flat bar , weld a head on it , bore it out & drill/tap for 2 set screws ....if they stick out , they will be in the way ....think abt how i know that .....this will work but there is spring since it is NOT STRAIGHT LINE ...& spring is always a problem ..!!!!...set up the part ,the centerline set up w/ a small square. now bring the bit into bore & set it so it bears equally on both sides of the part of the bore , thus proving that it is central ....if the keyway is no more than abt 3/16 , w/a 12 in shaper ,start taking cuts abt a thou at a time till u see what it can handle....if keyway is more than ur machine can handle , most sensible people use 2 bits ....one bit roughs out the center , and the second one has the center cut out , & just the 2 sides remaining ...this is then set up in the two shallow grooves left from ur first set up & then take the FULL cut ( 1/2 the key + abt .010 clearance)....course u can also rough out the center w/ a smaller bit & then proceed to move it right & left till u have it wide enuff.... that's assuming u can tell where in h---- u are .......when i do that , i can be assured of a slightlu o/size keyway , which has however , never been a problem ... when u get around to looking for a way better surface finish than a mill ever gave & one that needs no further polishing ( when squaring up a piece or taking to dimension) , i will send some j pegs of a shear grind bit , if u have not already come across it best wishes docn8as [and in a later message] Date: Wed Jan 16, 2008 5:21 pm ((PST)) forgot to add .....if u dont have a clapper lock( tapped hole in clapper housing & indent on clapper ) ,, & dont want to destroy authenticicty , & u make a holder & a bar , u can xtend the bar above the holder sufficiently to tap a hole in it for a screw to bear against the clapper housing ,preventing clapper movement ... best wishes docn8as ------- Do you use it ? [Metal_Shapers] Posted by: "David Powell" edi.powellx~xxsympatico.ca Date: Thu Sep 18, 2008 6:24 pm ((PDT)) We have lots of discussions about finding, restoring, researching history and which is the best shaper but seemingly little about actually using them. Do many shapers actually earn their keep or are they more of a curiousity and talking point in most folks' shops? I use mine for roughing out material, occasional internal keyways and cutting small ratchet wheels but find the mill (a cheap chinese knee mill) much quicker for many jobs and so the shaper stands unused for a lot of the time. Am I typical or do others make much more effective and intensive use of their shapers than I do? Regards David Powell ------- Do you use it ? Posted by: "Clive Foster" clive_fosterx~xxtalk21.com Date: Fri Sep 19, 2008 3:35 am ((PDT)) David: There is a certain difference in mental attitude to using a shaper as compared to using a mill. It's certainly easier to simply fit a cutter to a mill and thrash around until you get a result. Hopefully without lunching too many end-mills. I guess most of us have shapers for the jobs which a mill doesn't do well on. Especially those which need an expensive use once cutter for, so in that respect it is an occasional use tool. In my case I have an er "excess" of mills about the place. A Bridgeport Varispeed, a Taig CNC and a large dovetail column Chinese bench mill that I used in pre B'port days and have yet to sell 'cos I keep threatening to CNC that to use instead of the Taig so I can share tooling with the B'port. Not that the Taig has ever been used in anger (complex story here). Just obtained a kit to make a spherical turning tool. Out of interest I intend to do as much of the work as possible on my Elliot 10M shaper. Clive ------- Re: Do you use it ? Posted by: "jmartin957x~xxaol.com" Date: Fri Sep 19, 2008 6:52 am ((PDT)) I make quite a bit of use of my shaper. It's a Rhodes, 7 inch. I also have a horizontal mill - Heald, 40 NMTB spindle, table is about 7" x 31". End milling (and face milling) is a plus/minus operation. On the plus side, it's extremely rigid. And it's extremely accurate - the table and vise base are always at 90 degrees to the cut. No head to get out of adjustment and to add flex. No tramming needed. Tons of X and Z travel. Chips fall away by gravity. On the minus side, you have to work on the back side of the piece. Trying to reach the cranks when you're standing on the back of the table trying to mill to a scribed line leaves something to be desired. Milling with conventional cutters allows you to view the work perfectly. Takes a while to set up the cutters on an arbor, though, and the cutters aren't cheap. I haven't yet taken up sharpening them on my surface/ toolmaker's grinder, but I guess I'll have to learn. The shaper is a different animal. You can always see exactly what you are doing. The cutters are dirt cheap, and can quickly be touched up or reground by hand. The surface finish, if you wish, can be better than that from the mill. And, in the words of that TV huckster Ron Popeil, you "set it and forget it". I'll often set the next piece going in the shaper while I take the first piece to the mill to cut a 90 degree surface. I use the shaper a lot, for both roughing out and fine work. Very little of it is for internal keyways or other work that requires its use. Rather, for work that could be done on either the shaper or the mill, the shaper is often my first choice. John Martin ------- Re: Do you use it ? Posted by: "jaco.schutte" jaco.schuttex~xxyahoo.com Date: Fri Sep 19, 2008 7:49 am ((PDT)) I stopped using my flycutter on my chinese mini-mill ever since I got my Southbend shaper. I was amazed at the improvement on surface finish the first time I ran it. I also hate paying for replacing worn out end mills, so I tend to try using my shaper for as many of the roughing operations as possible. Jaco ------- Re: Do you use it ?/ Sure for 25 years. Posted by: "davida104" davida104x~xxyahoo.com Date: Fri Sep 19, 2008 7:48 am ((PDT)) The shapers in my shop have been in steady use for 25 years. I have fitted limit switches on the ways, oil them up get the job on, and walk away. In a one man shop with 4 cnc's working steady, I get more satisfaction from the old shapers. Still the cheapest machine to maintain and relatively zero tooling cost. Sure they are slow but with a little planing they are just fine. The more you use a shaper, the more you will find jobs for them to do. Best wishes to all. David Gurney. ------- Re: Do you use it ? Posted by: "johann_ohnesorg" bigdukeonex~xxgmx.de Date: Sat Sep 20, 2008 7:09 am ((PDT)) Hi, mine does a lot of surface work; whenever I run across a piece of steel, cast iron or aluminum in my shop that´s left over from sawing or milling with a rough surface or an odd angle, I just square it up before it goes into the box again. This gives me a square and level surface to work from the next time I start and saves a lot of time. Also, a lot of cylinder heads end up on the shaper for clean up work or higher compression. Lately, I did a few tractor parts for a friend who was completely puzzled how they were made in the factory in the 1940s; no way to do this with a mill. He had them welded up and heat treated but found no shop that was able to cut 90° splines down against a surface with 0,25mm clearing for a reasonable price. I set them up in the shaper and just cut them, though it was a little bit of playing around against the very short run over. He had never seen one of this ancient beasts in action and was completly mesmerized when it began to cut. On quick and dirty work or on rigs, the shaper cuts the recesses for wrenches. Also, it cuts the vees on every thicker piece I will weld (or the neighbor, since he´s seen it). I must admit I fell in love with cast iron for fixtures since it machines much better than steel. Shapers and cast iron are like peas and carrots. I use the machine as others here do it, set it up, let it do its job alone while you do something different and then later come back to it and set it up for the next step. I just use it on a hobby scale but it has earned its price manifold, even if I only was paid with favors, stock material, engine parts, small change and meat for the grill or beer. A friend of mine told me what they charged him for deck work on a cylinder head for a bike and I told him "Hey, I could have done this for a crate of beer." Never say such sentences if you are not fully aware of what the outcome may be! And always talk to the guys that drag their stuff to your door for work no one else wants to do. Unbelievable what amount of "no longer available parts" I got by talking to people who knew other people that knew someone who... I dismantled my shaper since I moved the shop and it took a while to set it up again and then found out how often I used it. Can´t remember how often I stood there with a part in my hand turning around for the shaper which was not there. I would say each time I´m in the shop, on at least one occasion I use the shaper. Can´t say the same for the mill. Only the lathe gets more use. I even used it to cut off bar stock since sawing it to length and squaring it up in the lathe takes longer than an aggressive downfeed that still leaves a good surface on the shaper. Greetings, Johann ------- Re: Do you use it ? Posted by: "Steven" steve.watsox~xxntlworld.com Date: Sat Sep 20, 2008 1:23 pm ((PDT)) Hi David, no some of us use them. I make small gauge one engines and my shaper (an elliot 10m) is much better than a small mill; simply, I made my choice because I would struggle with a small mill to make workshop tools and do not have the room for a bridgeport mill. And also the cost of a medium sized mill would be too much, so my shaper gets used at least once a week. I also have built an adapter for a small drill that fastens in place of the clapper box. I also have a small grinding attachment that I use as a surface grinder but I cannot get better than .0005" accuracy. As mine is for hobby use at home it is very cost effective and easy to use. In industry I have come across a small company that uses 2 shapers but these cut cutting edges on cones for recycling plastic. Most machine shops in my area don't have them, that I am aware of. Regards Steven N.E UK ------- Re: Do you use it ? Posted by: "metalchipster" metalmanx~xxogletree.org Date: Sun Sep 21, 2008 12:18 am ((PDT)) Hello David, I use my shapers to do the same things that most people do (roughing, cleaning, squaring, slotting, precision work, shaving engine heads, squaring engine blocks, etc.). I use my shapers a lot because I always make it a point to see if the job can be done on the shaper even it would be simpler and/or faster on the mill. The reasons that I do this is to (1) save lots of money because I'm not dulling expensive end mills or chipping carbide inserts and (2) for me, the shaper is just more enjoyable to use than the mill. If you use your imagination, you can do things with the shaper that are extremely unconventional. For example: I do a lot of rod/pipe bending. My bending machines are all manual. However, I can mount a bending fixture in the shaper vise (or on the table) and a shaft-mounted roller in the clapper and use the ram to push the handle around to make the bend. The same is true for punching holes. I have several manual hole punches that have very long handles for leverage. Thick plate takes a lot of force to punch (and my arthritis isn't getting any better) so I mount a punch fixture in the shaper vise (or on the table) and a shaft-mounted roller in the clapper (same one that I use for bending) and let the ram move the handle. It works great for that. Currently, I am cutting 3/8 inch rebar with the shaper. I mounted one-half of a store-bought rebar cutter blade in a tool holder and the other half in the shaper vise. I line up the cutters and then just simply push the rebar through as the ram strokes. Once I get this stack of rebar cut to length (only about 500 more cuts) I'll be mounting the bending fixture back on the shaper and bend them. I've done several hundred of these so far so you can see why I've come up with this solution. I could have rented an automatic cutter/bender to do this job but that would deprive me of finding another use for my shaper. I've used my shapers to stretch wire, weld plate (careful this is messy), hacksaw, file, grind (another messy one), make gibs and lots of other metalworking things that I can no longer remember. You can also use shapers for woodworking. My brother is building a log home. He wants everything to look rustic. So, we've mounted wood parts in the vise or onto the table to shave them lengthwise and/or crosscut them with various shaped cutters or scrapers to obtain very rustic-looking results. We also plan to use these techniques to build his furniture so that it will match the rustic look of his house. Another extensive woodworking project that I've used the shaper for is notching out bunches of fence posts for cross braces. Believe me folks, metal shapers are a must-use for these kinds of things. I live in an agricultural area and all of us do some type of farming. These shapers really come in handy around here for all sorts of things. Some of them are even conventional. :) As an aside, I graduated with a degree in Machine Shop from technical school before I went off to college. Back in those days (40 yrs ago), the metal shaper was all the rage. However, I can still remember the first time that I saw a metal shaper being used extensively in an industrial environment. It was in a very large machine shop. They had a large room set up with 36 inch shapers. They were being used to shave automotive heads and blocks. The fixtures that they had fabricated to hold the heads and rotate the engine blocks were amazing. I was fascinated by them and never imagined that one day I would own smaller versions and be doing the same kinds of things with them. So, you can see that the uses for your shaper are limited only by your imagination. Regards, Terry P.S. After I got my shapers I went back to the above machine shop to see if the shapers were still there. They weren't. They had been replaced by automatic machines. :( ------- Do you use it ? - How bout some specific jobs Posted by: "coldtoo2000" coldtoo2000x~xxyahoo.com Date: Sat Sep 20, 2008 2:00 am ((PDT)) Let's see. Faced 1 1/2 angle plates on it cuz the last face wouldn't fit under the ram! : ( > Made the auxiliary slide for lathe, cut the profile of vee ways to fit the lathe bed and box ways for the slide table. Used it to remove the bow from 5/8 x 6 x 18" way plate for the mill I'm building. What a nightmare! Now it's only .580 thick, but it's a lot closer to straight. Even used it to make some Tee nuts for the shaper table. CT2 ------- Re: Do you use it ? - How bout some specific jobs Posted by: "mcgam2000" mcgam2000x~xxyahoo.com Date: Sun Sep 21, 2008 6:18 pm ((PDT)) I have even made tools and stop blocks for my shaper. I will be uploading a series of pictures where I made a A. Voltz style tool holder from a solid block of steel. Look for it in McGam's photos McGam ------- max depth of shaper cut [Metal_Shapers] Posted by: "rgsparberx~xxaol.com" Date: Tue Nov 25, 2008 7:14 pm ((PST)) I was cutting some CRS with my shaper and trying various depths of cut. I have a 1/4 HP motor. If I took more than 20 thou at a time, the tool was unable to start the cut. I'm reluctant to go with a larger motor given the strength of the rest of my machine. What I would like to know is how this depth of cut compares with other shapers with the same size motor. My cutter has a rounded end about 0.1" wide. Thanks in advance, Rick Sparber web site: http://rick.sparber.org ------- Re: max depth of shaper cut Posted by: "n8as1x~xxaol.com" Date: Tue Nov 25, 2008 10:36 pm ((PST)) atlas 7B ..1/3 hp ....max cut in 1018 steel is 100 thou w/ .010 feed, .1/32 radius on a pointed bit, 20 deg side rake............it will take a .125 doc, but only w / .005 feed. i usually run it at .100 w/ .010 feed when i need to rough out ..., maybe a .025 finish cut w/ a "dutch nose", a 1/16 flat point, or a knife bit set near flat, & a finish cut of less than .005 w/ a shear grind when a finished surface is needed... best wishes docn8as ------- Re: max depth of shaper cut Posted by: "mcgam2000" mcgam2000x~xxyahoo.com Date: Wed Nov 26, 2008 9:56 pm ((PST)) Rick: In the pictures section of this group are a series of pictures of my Atlas making a Voltz tool holder. I was making a cut 0.020" deep and 0.030" wide to cut this block down to size with little or no trouble. Mcgam ------- NEMES download info source [Metal_Shapers] Posted by: "harryg862" hg4570x~xxsbcglobal.net Date: Fri Jan 16, 2009 1:04 am ((PST)) Maybe this is "old news" to some, but it isn't to me, so here goes... I was looking thru some old threads here, and ran across mention of a CD from Errol Groff that contained pages from old shaper books that are getting hard to find. The CD was mentioned in the NEMES newsletter, so I e-mailed Errol about buying a copy. He responded that I should "hang onto my $$$" because all the info from the CD is now on the NEMES website for download here: http://neme-s.org/Shaper%20Books/shaper_book_page.htm As Errol said, "...there's a lot more info there too, and it represents a TON of scanning". Enjoy! Harry ------- Re: Gear cutting setup [Metal_Shapers] Posted by: "zs6bxi" bobtx~xxiafrica.com Date: Sun May 31, 2009 12:19 am ((PDT)) > do a search on the forum, there was a thread on gear cutting on a shaper some seven or eight years ago. I didn't pursue it myself, other things got in the way. Regards, Matthew TINKER < Hi here are links to two articles which describe the application shown on Utube. http://www.eurospares.com/graphics/Tools/shapers/second%20article.pdf http://www.eurospares.com/graphics/Tools/shapers/shaper%20gear%20cut.pdf Regards Bob ------- Re: Logan 7" - Minimum Footprint ? [Metal_Shapers] Posted by: "Ed Godwin" eng4turnsx~xxyahoo.com Date: Wed Jul 29, 2009 5:40 am ((PDT)) "Andrew Stern" wrote: > Hello. I am making slow progress in rebuilding a LOGAN 7" in my garage > (mainly hunting parts) and I now need to consider setting it up in a > very tight basement work area. It's going to be an effort to get it down > the steps and a jigsaw puzzle to make it fit. I was hoping that someone > would be able to tell me what the "practical minimum foot-print" I'll > need to provide for the shaper might be. I've never operated one before > so I'm not sure of the value of potentially leaving extra room on the > right side and back. I'd love to be able to have enough room walk around > it but it won't be possible. Obviously I'd like to minimize the space > needed. Thanks all. Andy Andy: (pre-footnote: this turned into a novel and I apologize for that) OK, required space depends a little on your own size, agility and eye acuity. So, for what it's worth the below is predicated on my size: 5'10", 210 pounds, kinda stout, 57 years old and still pretty limber, close-up eyesight starting to suffer. My Porter-Cable AS-7 (same as the Logan 7) right side is located at the left end of my 13" South Bend lathe with about 30 inches of clearance between them. That's enough on that side to: walk between them; access the on-off switch; crank the shaper's cross-feed comfortably; wipe off excess oil; grease the variable speed drive pulley; and make downfeed adjustments to the clapper box slide. You will need to use a crank handle on the cross-feed screw and a crank handle needs some space. I know - you can always put an open-end wrench on the square head of the screw but you'll be there forever. So you have to have some swing room for a crank handle. Also, when the shaper's spitting out hot chips, you really don't want to stand directly in front. I usually stand to the right side because that gives easy access to all the operating controls. Seems like set-up controls are on the left and operating controls are on the right. On the other (left) side of the shaper, there's about five feet of space that allows room for tool, work and vise set-ups; and stroke adjustments. Five feet is more than is necessary but I wouldn't want less than two feet. At the rear there's about two feet between the shaper and my band saw but the band saw is on wheels so the back of the shaper essentially faces the open shop floor area. You need to be able to access the motor belt tension screws on the back of the base. The front of the shaper faces another open area that serves (as far as the shaper goes) as a chip collection area. It's about seven or eight feet from the shaper to the wall and I really don't have to worry about a hot chip getting somewhere and creating a fire hazard. If you're space-tight and you have flammable construction or nooks where hot chips can hide, think about this and you might want to make a free-standing chip shield to contain and corral those chips. They do come off hot and fast and go everywhere! I even find them behind the shaper. One thing I don't like about the original vise is that the screw protudes out in front quite a bit and I am constantly snagging myself on it if I'm not careful - so the extra room in front is useful. The space I have around my machine tools is helpful when I have trouble seeing. The shop's ambient light is ample but the more stuff that's packed tightly together tends to smother light. With less than a 20-year old's eyesight, more light is better and the space to squeeze close with a magnifying glass is useful. My experience is that when I use the shaper, I tend to use it a lot and for long periods, such as cranking out numbers of roughed and finished parts for projects. Then it gets put away for weeks at a time. It just doesn't get the constant daily use that my lathes and vertical mill receive. So, for a small shaper, a heavy dolly with crank-down feet is practical - you just have to have an "operating" space that you can roll it into from the "storage" space. After having operated my first and only shaper for a couple of years, I can advise you that for safety's sake, it's better to have more room than less. I've only had a minor finger pinch but you can get into a serious problem even with this small shaper. As for moving it into your basement, if you're rebuilding it you know it breaks down into very manageable pieces. Suggested break-down: Base. Ram. Table. Cross-slide. Column. I would put some 2 x 12s on the stairs bolted together and braced to the floor/wall at the bottom. Then place a 4x4 or other timber across the upper door frame and use a rope sheave or a wire come-a-long to ease it down the wood slide. A good friend, a case of your favorite brew and a couple of hoagies help grease the skids. Good Luck Ed in Florida ------- Re: Logan 7" - Minimum Footprint ? Posted by: "Andrew Stern" ahstern3x~xxmsn.com Date: Fri Jul 31, 2009 8:57 am ((PDT)) Thanks for all the input. I can see now that I'm really going to have an issue setting this thing up. My only available space is to put it facing forward and to the left of my bench lathe where there is only a narrow piece of floor space or it will interfere with the opening of a door. I may have caused some confusion by assuming the "right side" is on the right when facing the machine, but I can see that I'll still need more room than I allowed. Using casters would be an option if my floor was level, but my house (circa 1920's) has a "hill" that leads to a nearby floor drain that would be an issue. My plan had been to cast a level base and anchor the unit down. I was hoping I could make the base ahead of time, but now it looks like I better keep my options open. It also sounds like I should try to find a ball-crank or a hand wheel for the traverse screw and maybe one for the end of the drive pulley shaft on the right rear (facing the machine) to avoid fumbling with a wrench. If anyone has anything suitable, let me know. I'll add that to my parts hunt list. Andy ------- Re: Logan 7" - Minimum Footprint ? Posted by: "Ed Godwin" eng4turnsx~xxyahoo.com Date: Fri Jul 31, 2009 10:59 am ((PDT)) Andy: If you go to my Flickr site you might get some ideas. http://www.flickr.com/photos/11949739x~xxN06/page3/ I found and adapted a round handwheel to the drive pulley shaft, much more convenient than a crank handle. For the cross-feed crank, crank stroke adjustment bolt, and ram release bolt, I just took a piece of round stock, heated it in the vise and bent it in two places, then welded on a socket square drive adapter. All three are the same size square nut but I don't remember the exact size right now. Inelegant and ugly but works just fine. The critical dimensions are those needed for the crank stroke adjustment bolt. As for your floor slope, if it's not so steep that you cannot push/pull the shaper up/down it, then you can still put it on a rolling base. Put four screw-down pads on the rolling base at the four corners to raise it off the wheels, level it, and lock it in place. The pad/floor interface might need to be something that will grip your floor very positively, such as a serrated metal surface that will dig into the floor. You can actually make such a surface very nicely using your shaper. If it's on a sloping floor, you'll have to experiment with how vigorously you can run the machine to prevent it from doing a walkabout. On a level concrete floor with no anchoring at all, mine won't move unless I'm running really fast and I solved most of that just by shimming so that all four corners were solidly on the floor, no "soft foot" condition. Keep trying. You can make it work in your space. Shapers are too cool to have one and not use it. Ed in Florida ------- Re: Interest in a Gould and Eberhardt [Metal_Shapers] Posted by: "bthomas40167" bthomas40167x~xxyahoo.com Date: Tue Sep 15, 2009 7:48 am ((PDT)) Just sharing. I really like the G&E's. I have had a 16" G&E ToolRoom and was very fond of it even though it had a good deal of wear most noticeable in the down feed screw and nut (which was integral to the casting on mine as I recall). It was still a joy to run. The simple workaround the wear issue was a magnet mounted dial indicator to keep track of the amount of downfeed [the nut and screw were so worn in spots that it would "suddenly drop" .100"]. Careful monitoring of indicator to set the depth of cut and use the gib lock and you could get out some fine work. Once I started this habit I have carried that habit forward to this day even when working with machines without this problem. BTW I thinned the shaper collection last winter ...let my 16" tool room go [it was hard to see it leave it was my first shaper] and I kept a 16" G&E Heavy Duty Universal and a plain 16" HD Hendy ...ironic considering how convinced I was when I got the G&E tool room that it was "huge" and a few years later I kept those machines that I had bought that have the least wear and made space by letting "the little one" go. If you do buy the 16" G&E I bet you will like it. If it's got a lot of wear you might still like it and maybe "trade up" later when one with less worn surfaces [is found]. Like Tony, I would like to see any pictures. ------- Boxford 8" Shaper - traversing the table! problems [Metal_Shapers] Posted by: "Chris Raynerd" mnbylcr2x~xxyahoo.co.uk Date: Sat Sep 19, 2009 10:37 am ((PDT)) Hi. I have had a Boxford 8" Shaper for a good few months now which I have been trying to get up an running, The main issue was the motor needed changing which I have now finally got around to doing. I now have a new problem which I just can not solve - the table is right at the end of the ways (towards the front opperating side) and I can`t get it to move back, either power feed or manual. I can select the gears using the A-B knob and this turns the lead screw for the travel but the table just doesn`t move! My model also has the additional (add-on) vertical travel and I have the same issue here - screw is turning but the bed is not moving. With both of these issues, I know I must be doing something wrong so that the table is not engaging but anyone any ideas? ------- Re: Boxford 8" Shaper - traversing the table! problems Posted by: "Matthew Tinker" mattinkerx~xxyahoo.com Date: Sat Sep 19, 2009 12:42 pm ((PDT)) Hi, on my Elliot M10, at the end of cross travel, there is a thread free length on the lead-screw, this prevents damage from over travel. It may well be that you're at the end of the thread in the "safety". You will need to "coax" it back onto the thread, applying pressure in the direction you want to go by some exterior means, if the cross slide is stiff or rusty/dirty, you might need to use something like a sash-cramp or a rubber mallet. Good luck, Matthew TINKER ------- Re: Boxford 8" Shaper - traversing the table! problems - another iss Posted by: "Chris R" mnbylcr2x~xxyahoo.co.uk Date: Mon Sep 21, 2009 11:27 am ((PDT)) Hi guys, just wanted to say thanks. You were all correct, it had come off the thread but I don`t think the shaper has seen action for many years and so it had seized up. I had to loosen the gibs right off, give it a good wobble and then it finally pushed back onto the thread. Well it is finally running and functional! Just another quick question - the horizontal feed is running really smoothly in manual but the vertical feed is very "stiff" or almost inconsistent when doing it manually. It is fine in autofeed but in manual it like goes from stiff areas to smooth areas and is a pain to try and move. Anyone any ideas for this one? Chris ------- Re: Boxford 8" Shaper - traversing the table! problems - another iss Posted by: "mcgam2000" mcgam2000x~xxyahoo.com Date: Tue Sep 22, 2009 12:41 pm ((PDT)) I do not know about Boxfords, but on most shapers, the vertical ways are locked down when cutting horizontally. It might be the case that the vertical way clamps are "snugged up" and causing that binding in manual movement. Just a thought... McGam ------- make spline? [Metal_Shapers] Posted by: "Jordan" jwprincicx~xxbigpond.com Date: Mon Jan 18, 2010 4:02 pm ((PST)) Although I've not seen any reference to making a female spline on a shaper, it seems this would be possible. Is there any experience on this? The minor diameter is 7/8 inches approx, with 6 splines. I have a 10 inch Douglas. Jordan ------- Re: make spline? Posted by: "Don Kinzer" dkinzerx~xxeasystreet.net Date: Mon Jan 18, 2010 4:17 pm ((PST)) I have a page showing how I cut internal splines in a stock gear for my lathe: http://www.kinzers.com/don/MachineTools/internal_spline/ Don Kinzer ------- Re: make spline? Posted by: "f350ca" f350cax~xxyahoo.ca Date: Mon Jan 18, 2010 5:41 pm ((PST)) Don't want to hijack your thread Jordan but have a question for Don. Just got my shaper and need to cut an internal keyway. Have seen pictures of your style of tool holder but thought I'd try a straight one that goes directly into the tool post hole on the clapper. Just finished it but haven't tried it (got too hungry and shut down for supper). Think it will work? Should be a straighter push on the cutter. Greg ------- Re: make spline? Posted by: "Don Kinzer" dkinzerx~xxeasystreet.net Date: Mon Jan 18, 2010 6:57 pm ((PST)) > [I] thought I'd try a straight one that goes directly into the tool > post hole on the clapper. I've been thinking of making one of those myself. I think you'll get better results with such a tool, all other things being equal. Rigidity is very important in shaper setups. Anything that you can do to reduce the ability of the bit to deviate from its "normal" position will produce better results. Don Kinzer ------- Re: make spline? Posted by: "n8as1x~xxaol.com" Date: Mon Jan 18, 2010 6:32 pm ((PST)) the inline tool was a preferred method in professional shops & taught that way in at least one apprenticeship 30 some odd years ago ... a heavy side braced angle plate w/ a slot for clearance was welded up & bolted to the table ...the part was then clamped to the angle plate ....this provided MUCH more support than grabbing just the bottom sector of the gear or intended part in the vise....an inline tool & an angle plate also avoids interference problems w/ the vise .... been there ... best wishes docn8as ------- make spline? Posted by: "lou" ldakosx~xxbigpond.net.au Date: Mon Jan 18, 2010 11:56 pm ((PST)) Jordan: I have cut inside splines on my Rockford but have yet to try it on my Douglas and hand operated Barin. You will need a dividing head of some kind and grind up a tool for the job; it's quite an interesting process. Regards Lou ------- Re: make spline? Posted by: "Ingrid and Alan" puddleduckx~xxproaxis.com Date: Sat Jan 23, 2010 9:36 am ((PST)) When cutting internal keyways I find the following works best: 1. Lock the clapper so that it doesn't 'clap', you won't then need any added down pressure. My old Steptoe shaper has a threaded hole in the side of the clapper box that takes a bolt to lock the clapper. 2. Orient the cutter to cut on the pull stroke. Works better, just like a pull saw versus a push saw. 3. Cut the keyway at the 12 o'clock position not at the 6 o'clock position, that way you can see better what you are doing. Also, since you are then moving the cutter upwards you won't have any problems from slack in the leadscrew suddenly allowing the cutter to drop. Alan Painter, Brownsville, Oregon ------- Re: make spline? Posted by: "n8as1x~xxaol.com" Date: Sat Jan 23, 2010 10:01 am ((PST)) fwiw...have not followed this thrd, but my 7 in atlas cuts internal keyways quite well w/ 1/8 in max bit width ..locked clapper, & cutting UP works best for me.....other preferred cut is downward & on back stroke w/ locked clapper ...this gives a clear look at the layout .... a 1/4 in wide cut is abt the max for my 16 in HD smith mills..( 4500 #) ...when cutting wider internals, i have ground a bit for full width, (courtesy of guru doug king, former head of 45 machinists keeping a monstrous canadian paper mill running) taken a few lite cuts to mark out the width on the part,(this centers the cut by touching the outer margins on the curve of the bore to mark out the extremes), then switched to a smaller bit to cut the center to depth & then returned to the full width bit, set in the previously made full width grooves & then cut to full depth ...this makes cutting to correct width less problematical ...hope this is of some value best wishes docn8as ------- Re: make spline? Posted by: "f350ca" f350cax~xxyahoo.ca Date: Sat Jan 23, 2010 10:49 am ((PST)) Thanks for the responses, great suggestions. Alan like the 12 o'clock position Idea, was seeing the slack in the lead screw alright. Would have to advance 5 or 6 thou before it would cut then it would grab hard as it pulled the slack out. Maybe with the clapper locked I could use a lower cutting angle and reduce that problem. Suppose the bar can flex enough to give clearance on the return stroke Thanks guys Greg ------- Re: make spline? Posted by: "n8as1x~xxaol.com" Date: Sat Jan 23, 2010 11:58 am ((PST)) when DOWN CUTTING w/ top slide, i find it necessary to go beyond the desired cut & then back up to predetermined point & lock the slide.,,, similar to removing xslide slack ..this eliminates the "dig in " ...& is mandatory for accurately taking the final few thou cut, not just for splines /keyways , but in surfacing as well.... things are a tad better w/ the heavier shapers, but still necessary on all five .....if shaper has no dial, (like my pre civil war 6x10), a mag back indicator works quite adequately ... best wishes docn8as ------- About down feed screw, how do i should work? [Metal_Shapers] Posted by: "Leonardo" ascanio7x~xxtiscali.it Date: Wed Mar 31, 2010 3:31 am ((PDT)) Hallo, I'm working with my metal shaper for a good while now, but i can't solve this problem: When i make a coarse cut (3 mm for example) i notice that the tool throws down the vertical feed slide. It goes down 0,45 mm -- that is the backlash of my vertical feed screw. The question: How do i should work? Do i reach the measure with the dial and go, or do i go back [the amount] of backlash before starting the cut? Thanks for help. ------- Re: About down feed screw, how do i should work? Posted by: "Andy FitzGibbon" wade8ax~xxmeer.net Date: Wed Mar 31, 2010 3:50 am ((PDT)) If a particular job doesn't require feeding the tool head during the cut, lock it, using the gib screws or a locking screw (if provided). For other cuts, keeping the gibs tight so that the slide has some resistance will help keep it from dropping. When feeding, feed the slide down, then reverse the screw to take the backlash out of the nut (as you describe). Andy ------- Re: About down feed screw, how do i should work? Posted by: "Tim Ostley" Tim.Ostleyx~xxgooglemail.com Date: Wed Mar 31, 2010 4:23 am ((PDT)) Dear Leonardo, I have a bit of backlash in the downfeed on my Elliot 10M. I try to push down slightly when I put on the down feed and then lock the downfeed. That way I know it isn't going to to move when it hits the work! It's not ideal but at least you know where you are. Best Regards Tim ------- Re: About down feed screw, how do i should work? Posted by: "Leonardo" ascanio7x~xxtiscali.it Date: Wed Mar 31, 2010 5:27 am ((PDT)) Ok, but my shaper does not have a down feed locking device. Look at my shaper picture and video, i have posted a few months ago: http://img121.imageshack.us/i/28853807.jpg/ I can make one at the place of a gib screw, welding a handle on a screw. The vertical slide of a shaper works like a lathe crosslide, but this one is not throw to the work by the tool. Moreover, when i make a finishing cut i have the opposite problem and the tool pulls out the slide, this time. I'm confused. ------- Re: About down feed screw, how do i should work? Posted by: "n8as1x~xxaol.com" docn8as Date: Wed Mar 31, 2010 3:04 pm ((PDT)) note the dial on the slide, (or use a dial indicator if no graduations) & turn the slide down more than needed & back to the amount of cut you need & LOCK it w/a gib screw plus handle ...... takes out backlash & the lock keeps it out ... i have had dig-ins even locked, when the backlash was not taken out of the screw... best wishes docn8as ------- Re: About down feed screw, how do i should work? Posted by: "Leonardo" ascanio7x~xxtiscali.it Date: Thu Apr 1, 2010 9:18 am ((PDT)) docn8as wrote: > i have had dig-ins even locked, when the backlash was not taken out of > the screw... Also i have! Seems there is no lock force that can avoid going down. Ok, the way you say is very clear. But, sometimes, when i make a finishing cut with very little amount of cut (i.e. 0,2 0,3 mm) i have noticed the opposite problem. The tool pulls up the tool slide (when i take out backlash as you say, of course). So i have a higher work at the end than at the begining. Had you got the same problem? ------- Re: About down feed screw, how do i should work? Posted by: "n8as1x~xxaol.com" docn8as Date: Thu Apr 1, 2010 10:25 am ((PDT)) i have not noticed that problem ...in thinking abt it, maybe the tool bit is not stoned as sharp as needed .....cut started, & the bit dulls, & slack SOMEPLACE in system. allows the bit to back off a little near the end of the cut ???....check outboard support of the table ...indicate table LEVEL w/ indicator in tool post .....if you have no outboard support for table & there is wear at inboard support for table, under the force of a cut, the table WILL " DROOP " (cantilevered drop) when you get near the end ,& if a lot of wear, it won't require hardly ANY force (even a lite finish cut).....ALSO i THINK specs for a finish cut were never better than a thousanth or so when shapers were new !!!! i will keep thinking abt this .....if a light bulb comes on, i will post best wishes docn8as Ps ...one of my 16 in shapers a Steptoe, circa 1900-1903...has wear & no outboard support ..i have been playing w/ the idea of an adjustable angled brace down to the base......probably wont get around to doing it, since i have others to use & other projects to do ...(.& will be 79 this year..) ------- Re: About down feed screw, how do i should work? Posted by: "n8as1x~xxaol.com" docn8as Date: Sat Apr 3, 2010 12:10 pm ((PDT)) for the final finishing cut (.005 or LESS, preferably abt .003) i will either use either a "dutch nose (shovel nose) bit set as flat to the work as it can cut w/out chatter, or a "shear grind bit if i want the best finish i can get (needing no grinding /polishing .. i am talking abt mild dteel ..maybe 1018 ....the first bit is a full width flat face w/ lite amt of back rake, no side rake, & front clearance as well as side clearance, increasing to the rear....similar to a carbide "D" profile bit, but tapering to the rear (like a hand ground cut off bit). shear grind is a round nose tool of THREE OR FOUr inch radius, front & side clearance, mild back rake ...BUT GROUND SO IT IS APPROX 65 deg TWIST when in the holder of tool post,..so as it comes forward w/ the high negative rake, it has a shearing action removing all feed lines.... when so ground, the rt edge of bit preceeds the left side when cutting to the left (facing the shaper), & so it scrapes across the work at an angle even tho the ram is operating in a straight line these two bits will be sharptaking a cut w/ very little pressure. best wishes docn8as ------- Re: About down feed screw, how do i should work? Posted by: "Leonardo" ascanio7x~xxtiscali.it Date: Mon Apr 5, 2010 11:40 am ((PDT)) Thanks for very useful advice. I should understand "shear tool", it would be as in this sketch: http://ftp.tiscali.it/porta.foto/foto/shearing%20tool.jpg Isn't it? Here is a video where i use it, i hope in the right way: http://www.megavideo.com/?v=3SIS1D11 But i dont have understood dutch nose or shovel nose tool. Is it like the first tool in this picture? http://www.neme-s.org/shapers/columns/shaper_column_41_files/bits03.gif Sorry if i take advantage of your experience, I'd like ask another question: I have many problems in slotting cut. I have made a slotting tool, 4 mm large. I have tried both 10 degrees and 15 degrees of back rake, but i have always very high chattering. I made both end relief and side relief on both sides, what's wrong with it? (material: mild steel) Thanks. ------- NOTE TO FILE: I love Doc's brilliantly helpful information. He is indeed an expert. His writing is sometimes colourful to the point of being difficult to understand by those whose native language is not English. Throughout these files, I have often edited out a lot of spaces and sometimes substituted words for abbreviations in order to make the meaning clearer or the text just a bit easier to read. To enjoy the full flavour of his prose, you can always look up and read the original messages posted in the various groups' archives. Personally I really appreciate this fine fellow's advice, and enjoy his get-to-the-point style of writing. Thank you Doc. ------- Re: About down feed screw, how do i should work? Posted by: "n8as1x~xxaol.com" docn8as Date: Mon Apr 5, 2010 7:30 pm ((PDT)) no ....the shovel nose tool is like the keyway tool ONLY, it is full width at the tip but shaped like keyway tool w/ the clearances & mild back rake ....& perhaps milder back TAPER. for mild steel, it is placed as flat to the work as possible W/OUT chatter ..this means the apex of a very small angle is in the direction of the cut .....the closer to flat, the smoother the cut & the more tendency to chatter....it is placed fully flat for cast iron finish cuts.....this is also an exellent lathe tool for smoothing & shoulder cuts AND INFEEDING facing cuts (not so for outfeeding finish cuts). unable to view video. requires me to join ...perhaps someone else wil comment re slotting cut .....my experience w/ 7 in atlas, 1/8 in width is the widest i can comfortably take w/ out chatter (i assume you are talking abt slotting either round or flat ....if you mean keyway in for instance a gear, i will talk abt that in a little bit ...).......my 4500 pound 16 inch shaper doesn't like more than 1/4 in width cut & one to three thou doc (depth of cut)... for larger slotting, two bits are used ..one is full width of desired slot width, BUT w/ the middle cut out .....start the cut w/ this bit, marking out the outside edges as you take a few cuts ...THEN switch to a narrower bit that YOUR shaper can handle w/ out chatter & cut out full depth between the lined out cuts ...then go back to the full width bit lined up on the original cuts & go to full depth ... for the keyway in a gear, you LOCK the clapper & cut UPWARD, preferably forward cutting, tho IIRC [If I Remember Correctly], i have cut them on the return at one time ..this takes play out of screw & way less tendency to dig/chatter .......really serious internal keyway cutting is done w/ a straight line boring bar w/ bit clamped at the end ...this replaces the tool post ...just turn up a boring bar w/ a rim in rear & threaded for a nut to tighten it against the clapper ......an angle plate w/ a hole/slot is bolted to the table & the gear clamped to it ....this gives way more support for the gear than grabbing just a little in the vise & it gets the vise OUT OF THE WAY ...also avoids the cantilever FLEX of toolpost w/ usual boring bar ...again use two bits as described above for larger width cuts than your machine can handle ......the full width bit w/ cutout automatically will center the cut by touching equally on both sides of the hole FWIW my 1901-1903 steptoe 16 inch arrived w/ two straight thru boring bars, 1/2 in & 3/4 ...both slightly like a banana due to carelessness... showing their very old age... i wud think, for whatever reasons, the bit you are using is too wide for YOUR machine in its present wear condition .......maybe excessive clearances SOMEWHERE..?....cant tell from across the pond.....maybe just too much width for the machine, & its wear, or you are taking too big a depth of cut ...on my 7 inch atlas, two thou is as much as it wants w/ an 1/8 in wide bit ..& on harder stuff, i back off to a single thou ... cuts shud be only of the depth of a couple thousandths or even less.... "ride" the top slide w/ your hand, putting on the feed on each return stroke ..it goes to depth surprisingly quickly w/ small increments of cut re back rake ...try a mild back rake, like maybe a 3 inch radius gently ground in line w/ a 5-6 in wheel ....also since cuts will be a few thou at most, 3-4 degrees end clearance shud be enuf. at any rate give less end clearance a try ... you may freely pick what's left of my brain all you need to ......i have a backlog of freely given info from many who are now gone & feel a need to pass along that info ....as well as what i have stumbled upon myself. best wishes docn8as FWIW ...one, now deceased writer, well trained & long time instructor, preferred to cut internal keyways DOWNWARD, w/ locked clapper cutting on return stroke (can see the layout clearer) ...i & lots of others prefer cutting UP & FORWARD w/ locked clapper.....if you dont have a clapper lock, a tapped hole 5/16 - 3/8 on the side of clapper housing will allow a bolt to lock up the clapper in a slightly indented hole in the clapper ...cutting forward w/ downward direction is just plain asking for dig in or chatter, unless you have a clapper slide w/ zero slack , or maybe a too tight for comfort slide ... ------- Re: About down feed screw, how do i should work? Posted by: "Jordan" jwprincicx~xxbigpond.com Date: Tue Apr 6, 2010 3:06 pm ((PDT)) Hi Leonardo, I think the tool is mounted in the wrong direction? The angle makes the chip come off towards the uncut area, instead of away from it. You still have a nice finish, though. Jordan ------- Re: About down feed screw, how do i should work? Posted by: "n8as1x~xxaol.com" docn8as Date: Tue Apr 6, 2010 9:03 pm ((PDT)) one other thought although i havent used a gooseneck tool holder for external slotting in a shaper, i think it wud be possible to take a wider cut w/ a gooseneck (flexible) tool bit holder...like an armstrong S30 or S31......the "gooseneck", a pretty accurate term, allows the bit to flex AWAY from the cut rather than to dig in ....these are flexible lathe parting tool holders...& use only 1/8 in bits., but wud allow a deeper depth of cut for slotting OR cut off .....BUT there are gooseneck threading bit holders for 3/8 bits that wud work, by at least three makers ....they were used for early lathes w/out a compound, for direct infeeding of the threading bit (cutting on both sides rather than the leading edge)..... the flex allowed heavier cuts w/out chatter ...i have a VERY FLEXIBLE shop made one that i demonstrated to a friend abt 10 days ago ...i chucked a one inch bar & PLUNGE cut a 60 degree point w/ a full width 3/8 flat bit on an 1895 lathe at circa 166 rpm .....we could see 1/16 in flex of the bit, but no chatter w/ an aggressive feed......impossible on this lathe w/ a solid holder ... ------- Re: About down feed screw, how do i should work? Posted by: "Richard Wilson" richardwilsonx~xxn7mcg.ie Date: Thu Apr 8, 2010 12:59 am ((PDT)) Be careful, there are gooseneck lathe tools and gooseneck shaper tools, and they are different. Gooseneck tools for a shaper have the cutting edge level with the bottom of the face which clamps into the toolholder. It's so that when the tool deflects, it doesn't dig in and cause chatter. Richard ------- Re: new member [Metal_Shapers] Posted by: "al_messer" al_messerx~xxyahoo.com Date: Mon Apr 12, 2010 7:22 pm ((PDT)) "crazyfeather" wrote: > Hi found all of you on the HSM web page I am the owner of a I think ? a24" varnamo just getting started on reading the post on these critters I have used mine but vary timidly having no experience with a shaper Thanks Dave < Welcome aboard and good look with your "education" via Shaper. Always remember to stand away from the front of the ram when you turn on the power!!!! Al ------- Ammco Depth of Cut [Metal_Shapers] Posted by: "William Abernathy" williamx~xxinch.com Date: Wed Oct 6, 2010 10:57 pm ((PDT)) What sort of depth of cut have you folks achieved with your Ammcos? Mine gets unpredictable over 0.010" on steel, and if the bit hops once, it sets off a chain reaction of chatter across the surface on each successive cut stroke. I suspect my tool grind may be the culprit, but want to make sure I'm not expecting too much before I get all hot 'n bothered with the grinder. Thanks, William Abernathy Berkeley, CA http://yourwritereditor.com ------- Re: Ammco Depth of Cut Posted by: "johann_ohnesorg" bigdukeonex~xxgmx.de Date: Thu Oct 7, 2010 10:42 am ((PDT)) Hy William, get a few pieces of M2 and a bench grinder and play with tool angles and feeds. Is your tooling sound? Sturdy work mounting and a good tool holder is necessary. A cheapo vise will yield chatter and bad surfaces. Just as a thought. The steel itself can be the culprit, too. What is it? Stainless? Scrap from the junkyard? A prehardened plate? Leaded free machining steel? Some kind of mean speciality that is used in tools and dies or just the garden variety rebar that goes into concrete? There should be a section on shaper tools in the machinery handbook, there are writeups how the tool should look like here in the file section or in our sister group. I would say that you should be able to take 0.040" deep cuts. I don´t own an Ammco, my shaper is something comparable in size but of german ancestry. There are a few videos on youtube with Atlas and Southbend shapers that may give hints what is possible. Look here for setup and general infos. Well written, plain words, loads of pictures: http://www.neme-s.org/Shaper Books/Shaper Work/ There´s more stuff on shapers in the same directory. Cheers, Johann [Note: Johann corrected his depth of cut to 0.040" in a later message and this copy of his message has already been amended.] ------- Re: Ammco Depth of Cut Posted by: "jungle_geox~xxhotmail.com" Date: Thu Oct 7, 2010 12:25 pm ((PDT)) I've used mine primarily for cutting cast iron which is softer and not as tough as steel, but I can maintain a DOC of about 0.045 which I feel is pushing the machine to the limit and just above stall. I would suspect that you could do at least half that in 1018 steel. With a given shaper you really have four variables: cutter geometry, DOC, feed, and length of cut. I have found that a long length of cut (let's say above 3") on my Ammco pretty much uses up all the stored up energy in the ram and relies on the motor to plow through the rest of the way. This speculation is based on the reduction in ram velocity observed. I also tend to run about 15 deg of back rake and side rake and about 30 deg of end cutting angle with about 0.020-0.030 of nose radius when taking heavy cuts. I would guess that my feed is about 0.010 per stroke, but that's a guess. I am also lucky that I have a very well cared for shaper that is very tight and thus fairly efficient with its energy and doesn't provide many mechanisms for generating vibrations and thus chatter at the tool bit. So yeah these Ammcos aren't metal removing hogs, but they are fun to play with. :) In the end I'd play with tool cutter geometry, followed by making sure the table/vise is tight and that the ram does not have visually noticeable play. Also keep in mind that the very large tool geometry angles like I've suggested take less energy to cut the material at the cost of tool life and to a lesser extent quality of finish. ------- Re: Ammco Depth of Cut Posted by: "Doc" n8as1x~xxaol.com Date: Thu Oct 7, 2010 3:22 pm ((PDT)) FWIW ....my 7 in atlas will handle a .100 doc x~xx .010 feed OR .125 at .005 feed on 1018 horizontal cut. strange but true, this is max. & often used ...shaper is well used ...1/2 turn slop on x feed crank ...tool GEOMETRY !!!...absurd amt side rake, minimum clearances, no back rake, enter work at a 20 cutting angle ...1/64 radius on tool bit ..shaped similar to "a " carbide knife edge bit ...Xcept HIGH SPEED (sharper bits, better finish on 1018, less force needed..)...1st finish cut w/ knife tool set near perpendicular w/ram, as flat as possible w/out chatter. or shovelnose, ("dutch nose",like a carbide "chamfer" bit set same way). 2nd finish cut w/ "shear grind bit, 3-4 in RADIUS under 5 thou cut, cutting at 60 deg to ram so there is horrific negative rake just by position ....when set correct & it IS picky, finish on 1018 needs no further attention. best wishes docn8as ------- Re: Ammco Depth of Cut Posted by: "ammcoman2" geoffx~xxca.inter.net Date: Thu Oct 7, 2010 3:40 pm ((PDT)) I agree with all the comments above. One more item to check is the gib on the ram. Make sure that you have it set for no play but the ram is still free to move. On my machine I found that I couldn't get it "right". Turned out that the wear was really bad. The width of the dovetail on the main frame was 0.012" wider at the front compared to the measurement at the rear. A total reconditioning fixed that, and other issues. Geoff ------- NOTE TO FILE: Perhaps the following discussion could have been put into my "Projects in Metal" file. But they are shaper projects (which very few home machine shops own, except us folks) and there are interesting ideas related to operating a shaper; so the conversation is here. ------- Projects? [Metal_Shapers] Posted by: "Allen M" al_messerx~xxyahoo.com Date: Tue Dec 7, 2010 4:20 pm ((PST)) I am still awaiting some photos to be posted by listees of projects which we have done with our shapers. Al ------- Re: Projects? Posted by: "Rick Sparber" rgsparberx~xxaol.com Date: Tue Dec 7, 2010 4:35 pm ((PST)) Al: Occasionally I have a job that could be done on my shaper but end up using my mill. The only project I've done where the shaper was best was the cutting of a V in the top of a block. It is not that the shaper isn't useful, I've just not been that active in my shop since finishing it. Rick ------- Re: Projects? Posted by: "Don Kinzer" dkinzerx~xxeasystreet.net Date: Tue Dec 7, 2010 4:51 pm ((PST)) I have a couple of pages showing shaper projects on my website: cutting gears and making internal splines. http://www.kinzers.com/don/MachineTools Don Kinzer Portland, OR ------- Re: Projects? Posted by: "Rexarino" rexarinox~xxgmail.com Date: Tue Dec 7, 2010 4:56 pm ((PST)) Don, the next time you make a gear, would you please let me come watch for a little bit? I'll bring cookies... Rex Bosse Portland, OR ------- Re: Projects? Posted by: "Joe R" jromasx~xxcolumbus.rr.com Date: Wed Dec 8, 2010 6:52 am ((PST)) Don. Your stubby tool post and holder are on my list of things to make. Your 7B looks very nice in that shade of blue. How does your Vernon horizontal mill compare to my Atlas MFC horizontal mill size wise? Joe R. ------- Re: Projects? Posted by: "f350ca" f350cax~xxyahoo.ca Date: Tue Dec 7, 2010 5:08 pm ((PST)) Al: In the photos section under Greg's Shaper there are pics of the tool holders and body for a quick change tool post that I machined on the shaper. They're great for cutting dovetails. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Metal_Shapers/photos/alb um/470535985/pic/list ------- Re: Projects? Posted by: "Joe R" jromasx~xxcolumbus.rr.com Date: Wed Dec 8, 2010 6:23 am ((PST)) Greg. Both my lathes already have QC tool posts but your lever for loosening the TP for rotation has "inspired" me. Very nice. Joe R ------- Re: Projects? Posted by: "mcgam2000" mcgam2000x~xxyahoo.com Date: Wed Dec 8, 2010 6:35 am ((PST)) Allen: In early 2009 I made a new Lantern stile tool holder for my Atlas Shaper. Details of this may be seen in my flickr photo account. There are also some photos in the photos section of this sight or the companion photo sight of a tool holder that I made on the shaper. McGam2000 ------- Re: Projects? Posted by: "Dave" tiynmanx~xxyahoo.com Date: Wed Dec 8, 2010 8:30 am ((PST)) No photos but since rebuilding mine, I've made a few things: -Two 7" long aluminum V-blocks used in fixturing the rear triangle on bicycle frames for mitering during the fabrication of said bike frame. -One aluminum V-block toolpost for mounting and mitering thin-walled tubing on the lathe. -4 ea small aluminum V-blocks for holding round material in the vise and/or square material at a 45* angle. -Planed an adapter plate to mount a tool-holding fixture I came across at an estate sale, onto the bed of the tool and cutter grinder so I can grind shaper and lathe bits easier and more accurately. -Two sideview mirror mounts for my brother's 1960 Austin Mini restoration project. -Several instances of planing material either to salvage usable material from odd-shaped scrap, or to supplement other tools on a given job. Still want to: -Try my hand at cutting some gears (need to make table extension to mount a rotary table on) -Try cutting internal and external splines on a shaft -- and then fit them together to see if they match. Fun stuff. Dave ------- Re: Projects? Posted by: "Doc" n8as1x~xxaol.com docn8as Date: Wed Dec 8, 2010 4:13 pm ((PST)) i also had that thought ...but after reading a post where it stated 2 1/2 min / tooth on a shaper, & remembering the near dozen gears i cut on my 1200# horizontal mill at less than one min /tooth, i lost my desire.....course w/out milling capacity, the shaper comes into its own for gear cutting ...it PRECEEDED the milling machine.....havent cut any on my M head bridgeport so can't comment on using a vertical mill... my horizontal weighs a tad more than 1/2 of a bridgeport, but is WAY sturdier w/ out the cantilever over hang ... w/ adequate size MILLING machines, one cut /tooth is recommended. best wishes docn8as FWIW enco has angle plates CHEAP & free shpg this month..... i rcvd one a couple of years ago to extend table of my small (atlas) shaper... also to mount ON table w/ a vertical slot,for better holding of parts needing internal cuts ...grabbing a gear chord in vise is insufficient & vise is usually in the way, at least for me ...angle plate allows a straight thru boring bar / cutter, bolted to the clapper taking the place of the toolpost, and avoiding the lack of rigidity due to the cantilever hanging down. method has been around for a while, but not well known now. my 1900-1903 steptoe came w/ a 3/4 & 1/2 in boring bars fitted to clapper w/ a nut in front for tightening ....saves buying the atlas / armstrong tool on ebay for $50-$75 & works WAY better,, ------- Re: Projects? Posted by: "chrisw" in2steamx~xxwi.rr.com Date: Wed Dec 8, 2010 7:44 pm ((PST)) I just moved my whole shop to a new location in October, I have a bunch of things planned for my Atlas's Logans and Rockwell equipment. But I did not get heat in time before temps went sub zero. Hopefully I will have some stuff going after Christmas as I have a project coming that week and I will need the heat and the equipment. I made a camera mount before I moved I should be able to take pictures on all my stuff now. I have a few of andy L.'s projects most like the cross slide and boring head to make. Chris ------- Cutting a groove [Metal_Shapers] Posted by: "Allen M" al_messerx~xxyahoo.com Date: Fri Dec 31, 2010 9:30 am ((PST)) Before I do something stupid or dangerous, I want to ask the opinion of the members. I want to cut a groove at the bottom of a "V" block. I do not have a Mill and was wondering it I could do it with a "Parting off" blade set vertically in a tool holder with my SB-7 Shaper? How should I approach the problem? TIA!! Al ------- Re: Cutting a groove Posted by: "f350ca" f350cax~xxyahoo.ca Date: Fri Dec 31, 2010 1:37 pm ((PST)) Al: I do something similar, cutting an internal keyway is really no different. Grind the cutter slightly narrower than the groove you want so you can clean up the sides after plunging. You need negative rake on the sides so it doesn't drag and front rake to get a curled cutting. Greg ------- Re: Cutting a groove Posted by: "Doc" n8as1x~xxaol.com Date: Fri Dec 31, 2010 3:52 pm ((PST)) FWIW my atlas 7 in. is not happy w/ a plunge cut wider than abt .125 inch ... even w/ my 4500 # 16 & 20 in shapers, 1/4 inch is plenty. i wud slow the speed so i can "ride" the down slide putting on one to 3 thou on each back up ....keep the minimum amt of your parting tool hanging out of the tool post ......align by eye /measuring . or bring p/blade to side of block, raise up & move table over 1/2 the width of block plus half the width of blade. use an indicator so you dont get lost when widening either side. one "dodge", thanks to canadian friend & guru, doug king, in cutting wider than say 1/8 inch, is to use a second finish grind bit of say 3/16 or 1/4 wide, w/ the center cut out & finish to width ...reason for the cut out is so you can mark out the sides of the final size FIRST, then switch to 1/8 inch blade, then finish up w/ the full size blade. cutoff blades shud have "front to back" CLEARANCE as well as side/front clearance...front clearance max of 3-4 deg. helps prevent digin....while commercial blades dont have it, EVRy cutoff blade i have seen that was ground from a lathe bit HAD front to back clearance (bit was wider at front than rear...) all that said, it wud be stiffer to grind the parting tool on the end of a solid lathe bit, since the groove probably wont be that deep. FWIW..parting off stock is accepted proceedure but i have not tried it on 7 in, just the 16 in hvy... best wishes for a good year docn8as ------- Re: Cutting a groove Posted by: "David" superdave257x~xxyahoo.com Date: Sun Jan 2, 2011 9:20 am ((PST)) I made a holder for the parting blade so that it wasn't such a pita to hold, used one of the tapered blades so I didn't have to mess with cutting the side relief, basicly sharpened the blade as I would for parting off, but at a lower angle, then cut the middle out first on a 1/4" wide slot in cast iron, then cleaned up the sides. and took very small cuts of around 2 to 3 thousands at a pass. 7" Delta Milwaukee Bench top shaper. and I know I probably did it all wrong, but it worked. David ------ Re: Cutting a groove Posted by: "Doc" n8as1x~xxaol.com Date: Sun Jan 2, 2011 9:47 am ((PST)) FWIW ...sure that works .!..nothing wrong ! there are lots of "depends" ....advantage of taking first couple cuts w/ a 1/4 in bit hollowed out in the center IS, easy to see the center as you adjust the tool to touch siides of viz..a bore of a gear..... automatically aligns as you touch both sides at once.........on a flat, it marks the extensions of the cut, so when you cut the middle out w/ a narrower bit, just go back & put the 1/4 in bit in the original slots, cut downward & it's over...no nibblin around at sides till you hopefully split the line, (if it's still there), get it centered & dont get LOST .....you may think how know abt that happening ....plus wud certainly save time on multiples......again ...whatever works w/ out excessive swear words... best wishes for new year docn8as ------- Re: Unwanted Vertical Indexing Problem [Metal_Shapers] Posted by: "Doc" n8as1x~xxaol.com Date: Wed Jan 19, 2011 6:34 pm ((PST)) Randall wrote: > Hi All, I am having a little trouble with my 12" Vernon shaper. Since the Vernon community is pretty small, maybe some of you Sheldon folks or others may be able to help. While running my shaper and taking more than a .02" pass the tool head is dropping a couple of thou per stroke. The last pass went from .025" to over 0.100". I have tightened up the gib about as tight as it will go and that is not solving the problem. The crank is pretty tight and according to the Sheldon parts list, I have all the requisite washers,springs, etc. (maybe a real Vernon manual would tell me different, but the Sheldon list is all I have) Anybody have any suggestions on how to solve this problem? Randy < one has to remove the backlash in the slide ....note the current reading ...turn the slide down beyond what you desire & then back up the slide to desired cut ...this takes out the slack, if you went far enuf, depending on how much back lash present ....now LOCK the slide ...if you fail to do BOTH, the tool bit will be pulled into a deeper cut if back lash present in the slide......on my 4500# shaper, the slide is heavy enuf, that the problem is minor compared to my 6 & 7 & 16 in shapers., but still desired ...there are at least two ways of locking the clapper .....ask if a lock is not present. best wishes docn8as ------- Re: Unwanted Vertical Indexing Problem Posted by: "Jason Harvey" for_scaryjx~xxyahoo.com Date: Wed Jan 19, 2011 12:49 pm ((PST)) I've got a VTL at work that does the same thing--I just use an indicator and move it down past where I want to cut, then move it back up to the depth I want to take. It takes out all the backlash. (Of course if you're locking down the gibs tight enough it still shouldn't move.) Jason ------- Re: Unwanted Vertical Indexing Problem Posted by: "Randall" randallx~xxfontaine-etal.com Date: Thu Jan 20, 2011 3:28 am ((PST)) Thanks for responding guys. I played with it some today. I took apart the head cleaned tightened and lubed everything. (I am using Way Oil.) The table is locked down and the table support is bolted in place. The gib for the head is the type with a single screw that causes the gib to wedge in place rather than multiple set screws as in the other gib locations. So after all that did no good, I just ran the machine at zero cutting depth and after it traversed 6" I checked the height of the tool and the dial. The tool had dropped .015". It appears that the natural clapping of the clapper box is causing the change. The clapper with the tool holder and tool has a lot of mass so it does make considerable impact and noise. I doubt that rubber bumpers is going to be a viable solution 8^) I would like to keep this machine looking original, so I'd rather not kluge a handle holder or the like, but I am going to need to figure out how to keep that screw from turning. As it is now, it takes more than a little effort to run the tool up and down. The problem is more than a backlash problem. I took up all the backlash when I set the tool height. The clapping is causing the screw to turn and the change of forces of the cut is exacerbating it. This has got to be a problem shaper operators have dealt with historically. There is something I am overlooking. Any thoughts? Randy ------- Re: Unwanted Vertical Indexing Problem Posted by: "Gary Bauer" garybauer46x~xxyahoo.com Date: Thu Jan 20, 2011 7:53 am ((PST)) Randy: Sounds to me like the downfeed handwheel is out of balance and the cyclic oscillation causes it to rotate. Gary ------- Re: Unwanted Vertical Indexing Problem Posted by: "Richard Wilson" richardwilsonx~xxn7mcg.ie Date: Thu Jan 20, 2011 8:12 am ((PST)) Randy: If the slide doesn't have individual gib adjuster screws, take it off, drill and tap and fit a thumb screw or tee handled screw so you can lock the slide after every feed adjustment. It becomes second nature after a few goes. Richard ------- Re: Unwanted Vertical Indexing Problem Posted by: "Rexarino" rexarinox~xxgmail.com Date: Thu Jan 20, 2011 11:01 am ((PST)) No criticism intended as I don't know your skill level, but I wonder if you might have excessive top rake on the tool bit, causing it to have a high "pull" on the feed screw? You might try changing the geometry of the tool bit (reduced top rake) and see if it reduces the problem? Rex ------- Re: Unwanted Vertical Indexing Problem Posted by: "Doc" n8as1x~xxaol.com Date: Thu Jan 20, 2011 1:53 pm ((PST)) yes ...i didnt see anything abt LOCKING the slide ...as mentioned in my & at least one other .....if not locked the screw WILL turn & the cutting action pulls the bit deeper ,,,if you lock the slide i see no way for it to go deeper ....when you have a new machine w/ near zero lash or a much heavier slide,, the problem is not significant doc -------- Re: Unwanted Vertical Indexing Problem Posted by: "Doc" n8as1x~xxaol.com Date: Thu Jan 20, 2011 2:37 pm ((PST)) Rexarino wrote: I wonder if you might have excessive top rake on the tool bit, causing it to have a high "pull" on the feed screw? back rake needs to be MUCH less than on a lathe ..i usually avoid it & use a LOT of side rake ..avoiding tendancy to dig in ..front clearance shud be only a few thou also ....reserving some back rake for "dutch nose" tool squaring up, shouldering, finishing w/ less than .005 doc. best wishes docn8as ------- Re: Unwanted Vertical Indexing Problem - The Fun Begins! Posted by: "Randall" randallx~xxfontaine-etal.com Date: Fri Jan 21, 2011 3:28 am ((PST)) Well Johann, it looks like you get the prize. I took everything down again and checked the clearance at the nut. It was considerable. Now, here comes the problem. Actually, there is no nut. Instead built into the cast iron swivel box casting is a hole 2.5" long that has been tapped. The logical solution is to drill the tapped portion and press in a new tapped insert. So, I took a look at the screw. It looks and measures OK, so I look for a tap. All I need to find is a 5/8"-10 RH tap that will tap through 4X Diameter in cold rolled or other material. It appears that 5/8-10 is not a standard size. A quick search of the Internet turns up nothing in the way of the needed tap. Anybody have a 5/8-10 Tap they want to lend/sell/trade for? The alternative is finding a new Vernon swivel box at McMaster Carr (yeah right) or making my own tap. (That is going to be fun) Once again, does anyone have any suggestions? This has the potential of becoming a real project. B^( TIA Randy ------- Re: Unwanted Vertical Indexing Problem - The Fun Begins! Posted by: "David G. LeVine" dlevinex~xxspeakeasy.net Date: Fri Jan 21, 2011 11:04 am ((PST)) http://www.victornet.com/report/Taps-Special-Pitch-17-32-to-1-1-8/212.html has them for $15.80 plus shipping, BUT needs a $25 minimum order, IIRC, the site says "MINIMUM ORDER is only $25.00 plus freight.", which tends to confirm that. Victor is a great source for weird tools. Depending on the alloy, one could drill the hole oversized, make a plug and use Loctite to lock it in place (brass is nice since it will machine easily), then drill and tap it. As long as the plug is big enough, it will be fine, a shoulder may be nice to locate the plug and prevent "pull out." Another trick is to electroplate the current hole. Cotton swab plating works well here, see http://www.caswellplating.com/kits/plugnplate.htm with a good metal (based on the alloy), and make it a tight fit on the threaded part, no special tap is needed, and if it is a soft metal (like copper or tin), it can be SLIGHTLY undersized and will self seal. Dave 8{) ------- Re: Unwanted Vertical Indexing Problem - The Fun Begins! Posted by: "Doc" n8as1x~xxaol.com Date: Fri Jan 21, 2011 2:14 pm ((PST)) single point cut the new sleeve.....that way you will have less lash than w/ a stndrd tolerance tap vs a worn lead screw...& while you are at it ..take a cleanup cut on the screw so the wear is EVEN all the way ... that way the lash will be even LESS ....& if you refuse to lock the slide, there will still be a drop when you cut, equal to whatever slack you are left with. FWIW ...IT CAN BE DONE .....the first SQUARE thread i ever cut was for a compound nut on a 1890 15 in lathe ..it was 7/16 X10 .....at that time i had only cut V thrds,,,......i am talking home shop ....never worked in a commercial machining operation .....go for it ... best wishes docn8as ------- Re: Unwanted Vertical Indexing Problem - The Fun Begins! Posted by: "jbennett2140" jbennettx~xxhgn.ca Date: Fri Jan 21, 2011 2:23 pm ((PST)) This is a ACME thread so 10 is not that unusual see link http://roton.com/QS_lead.aspx?line= Quick, but costly, maybe check out a local machine shop to borrow or have done. (This tap you will only use once.) The other option might be to use "moglice", sort of a epoxy that you can put in hole with the threaded rod as a form till set (rod would be well waxed for release) before setting. ------- Re: Unwanted Vertical Indexing Problem Posted by: "johann_ohnesorg" bigdukeonex~xxgmx.de Date: Sat Jan 22, 2011 9:55 am ((PST)) Hi Randy, try to find an outlet that sells you acme threaded rod and the fitting nut (McMaster?). There´s usually a lot of beef left on those nuts so you can adopt them to suit your machine. In case the thread is different, it may be easier to alter the dial afterwards than to search for an obsolete threaded part. Apart from this, maybe one of our packrats here has spares from a parted out machine. With an altered lead of the screw, you could put a 2" DI on the head for precison feed. One should do this anyway because this yields precise parts and great control over the feed for a little amount of money spent. Cheers, Johann ------- Re: Unwanted Vertical Indexing Problem Posted by: "Randall" randallx~xxfontaine-etal.com Date: Sat Jan 22, 2011 11:49 am ((PST)) Well, I got the problem solved. After realizing the job and potential for screwing up an irreplaceable antique part by going forward and drilling sleeving and tapping, I decided to follow Doc's method. I drilled and tapped 2 5/16" holes in the slide. I put in set screws with brass dogs. Tightening them down on the gib stopped the indexing problem. The whole process only took about 30 minutes. Thanks again to all that responded Randy ------- Cutting Dovetails [Metal_Shapers] Posted by: "derstine2002" derstine2002x~xxyahoo.com Date: Sun May 22, 2011 12:46 pm ((PDT)) Hi Guys, I need some advice on cutting dovetails on my shaper. I'm trying to make some extra quick change tool holders for my lathe. I'm using a block of aluminum 3 x 2 1/2 x 1. I'd like to cut the dovetail first then spit it into 2 tool holders. I milled out most of the material and just need to cut the dovetail sides. That's where the trouble is coming from. Is there any website that you all could recommend that might show cutting dovetails with a shaper in some detail? Especially how to grind the tool bits? I have Rudy Kouhoupt How To Run A Shaper. He has a segment on cutting dovetails but I would like some more info on tool geometry. He mentions turning the head to Sixty° to cut a sixty° dovetail. On my Atlas when my head is vertical the the scale is set at 0. My scale is on the side of the head at the 3 o'clock position. So when it's 0 in the vertical position, do I need to turn it to 30° to make it a 60°? I rented one of Rudy's other videos on shapers and he had big wooden tools to show the tool angles. I wish I had paid closer attention to that one. I can grind tool bits fairly well for the shaper and my lathe. I wondered if cutting dovetails is covered some where on the web. I am sure that with some more time I could figure it out but Hey if someone helps out there I'll use it. Thank you Jerry ------- Re: Cutting Dovetails Posted by: "f350ca" f350cax~xxyahoo.ca Date: Sun May 22, 2011 4:20 pm ((PDT)) Hi Jerry: Think it's 60 degrees from vertical you want. You need to get that angle set quite accurately. I have a couple of pictures posted under Greg's Shaper in the photo section, one shot of the dovetail being cut. The tool needs to be ground with both sides clearing the side of the dovetail and the bottom, so less than a 60 degree point; I also ground some rake on the front of the tool. When cutting, I found it easiest to make a plunge cut to the depth of the dovetail, then come up and advance the table over for the next pass. To cut the other side, reverse the part in the vice while keeping your angle on the clapper set. There is a formula somewhere on measuring your width with two dowel pins set in the sides of the dovetail and measuring between them. If you're duplicating a part, just use two pins and measure between them in your existing part then duplicate, save the math. Hope this helps, Greg ------- Re: Cutting Dovetails Posted by: "robtorro" rtx~xxaccentfp.net.au Date: Sun May 22, 2011 4:53 pm ((PDT)) Gday mate, I've done a bit of dovetail work with the shaper and it kills using the dovetail cutter by miles! Yes the clapper should be set at 30 deg as the 60 is measured from each dovetail surface and your clapper is referenced from vertical, so half the dovetail's angle. I have some footage and a thread here: http://madmodder.net/index.php?topic=3206.0 This is me learning that dovetail cutters suck and shapers are magical... the cutter itself should be ground to give a few degrees clearance on the cut... see the pics and an angled holder would be advantageous...in fact left and right hand holders were the first things I made with my shaper... good luck, if you need help email me direct...I have more links. Cheers Rob ------- Re: Cutting Dovetails Posted by: "derstine2002" derstine2002x~xxyahoo.com Date: Mon May 23, 2011 4:28 pm ((PDT)) Much thanks Greg and Rob, I read your responses, took your advice. I also found some articles on shaper operation that I had in a folder. I rechecked my cutter, 55 degrees, right on. My setup on the shaper tool holder was off. I set the cutting tool correctly and guess what. Glass smooth dovetails, life is good. I'll post the finished tool holder shortly. Thanks again Guys Jerry ------- Re: Machinery's Handbook [Metal_Shapers] Posted by: "Chet" drumbum420x~xxmail.com Date: Thu Oct 20, 2011 11:09 am ((PDT)) Doc wrote: > any edition of Machine Tool Operation by Burghardt .., back to the first circa 1923, has the shaper info ..Audels Tool Makers Handbook has a large section on shapers & on planers ... docn8as < i think ive found exactly what your looking for (and ive ordered one as well ;) http://www.lindsaybks.com/bks/prshap/index.html Production Shaping Machinery's Industrial Secrets articles from Machinery Magazine More articles from just after WWI. You strap a casting to the bed of the planer, and the bed will pull the casting under a stationary cutting tool. On a shaper, however, the casting is stationary and the ram moves the tool across the casting to remove metal in ways a lathe can't. You don't see shapers much any more, but that doesn't mean they're not useful. Here, you'll be taken into factories in England, Canada and the U.S. to see how shapers were put to work building other machine tools. It's about as close as you'll come to seeing shapers in action. You get four articles detailing the use of shapers in the production of parts for drilling machines, other shapers, engine lathes, and more. You'll see the jigs used to mount castings for cutting slots, keyways, dovetails, oil grooves and more in a variety of castings from tiny to gigantic. Another article explores the various types of shaper tables used by different manufacturers to counteract the downward thrust of the cut. And you'll see a shaper adapted to cut radii, do surface grinding, and even cut teeth in a repaired gear. Admittedly, some of the shapers shown and the work they're doing is larger than we'll encounter. But the principles of adjusting, clamping, and cutting are applicable. These articles were written for the factory machinist who was to be doing this work. Just by "listening in" on the conversation, you're sure to learn valuable lessons. And the number one lesson: don't ever underestimate the value of a shaper. (Truth is, I think after you read this, you'll be drooling to buy a used shaper or build Dave Gingery's model.) Great ideas. Valuable lessons. Inexpensive. Heavily illustrated. Get a copy. 5 1/2 x 8 1/2 booklet 48 pages No. 22253 ... $5.95 ------- Clapper Box Angle Question [Metal_Shapers] Posted by: "alan lapp" alanbataarx~xxyahoo.com Date: Tue Dec 27, 2011 10:58 am ((PST)) Hello all. I've read a fair bit of information available on the web about shapers, and one piece of very basic information that keeps escaping me is this: why is it necessary that the clapper box be angled? What function does angling the clapper box serve? Also, how does one determine the "correct" clapper box angle? Thanks! ------- Re: Clapper Box Angle Question Posted by: "Doc" n8as1x~xxaol.com docn8as Date: Tue Dec 27, 2011 11:15 am ((PST)) angling is to prevent the bit from hanging up & scraping on the return stroke ....you are cutting in at an angle but the clapper hauls the bit up vertically, (into the cut) unless you ANGLE it ......the amt. is proportionate to the angle being cut ...no rule xcept to get it CLEAR ....& i reckon it wud not hurt to always use the max available (haven't thot that out so am open to correction there)... best wishes doc PS for those in disbelief or from missouri, angle the clapper & make a decent 45 deg cut, then straighten the clapper, put the bit into the cut & try lifting the clapper (no power)... ------- Re: Clapper Box Angle Question Posted by: "Doc" n8as1x~xxaol.com docn8as Date: Tue Dec 27, 2011 3:04 pm ((PST)) you cut an angle by unlocking the shaper HEAD, turning it to the desired angle, down feeding the tool slide as you ride the shaper ram w/ your hand ..that is unless you have a power down feed on your shaper head .... this feature allows the shaper to cut dovetails of various angles, & V 's of same ...which came in very handy for making a follow rest for my 14 inch Reed (55deg dovetails) & a carriage stop (85 deg way) rather than purchase a $200 special grind angle cutter ....or take a 1/2 day & make one which i have also done, although it was a 2 tooth cutter, not a 12 tooth ... best wishes docn8as ------- bore a rectangular hole [Metal_Shapers] Posted by: "bigtex3097" bigtex3097x~xxyahoo.com Date: Fri Jan 20, 2012 2:31 pm ((PST)) I am planning on building a falling block rifle action that requires a rectangular hole in the receiver to accept the breech block. Does anyone have a drawing for a boring bar holder for a shaper or know where I can get one? ------- Re: bore a rectangular hole Posted by: "Doc" n8as1x~xxaol.com docn8as Date: Fri Jan 20, 2012 3:19 pm ((PST)) i wud use a straight line boring bar, replacing the lantern tool post ....turn up a bar w a lip on the end to go into the clapper from the rear, threaded in front for a nut to lock it in place .....then either drill a hole at rt angles for a boring tool (a square one WILL work in a hole), or slot the end for a tool bit & anchor either w/ a grub screw from the end ...larger the more rigid ......unless you start w/ a very much oversize block, you will have difficulty holding it in shaper vise, & even if you can get it rigid, you will be reorienting it for up/down cuts ...better to use a dedicated large angle plate bolted on the table w/ holes /slots to allow the boring bar to pass thru ..OR you cud mount a vise on the angle plate, w/ clearance parallels under & then go straight at it .....a vertical shaper (slotter) is ideal for this, & this last arrangement is as close as you can get to that set up .....although the others can work. FWIW cut your rectangular opening before making the falling block & fitting it ...MUCH easier fitting the block to the opening than the reverse....& you can modify your specs as needed. de hass has designs for a circular block, but i did not care for them 40 or so yrs s ago. FWIW #2 ...if you are unable to make such a bar (if desired, i can describe it more fully), i recommend you delay this project till more skill has developed ......& this is meant to be helpful, not "snarky" ...i cud send you some dimensions for a pair of these that arrived w/ one of my shapers 16 in, steptoe circa 1900-1903, but they wud be of no value to you unless you have that machine. the typical shop made slotting tool using a lantern tool post is a rectangular bar w/ a circular head welded & bored for a bar or else the bar is bent back around a desired diameter & bolted/ welded....then a grub screw is used to hold a bar w/ a tool bit in the end which is inserted.....the cantilever effect here is detrimental to easy accurate use, requiring very small depths of cut to use. best wishes docn8as ------- Re: bore a rectangular hole Posted by: "alan lapp" alanbataarx~xxyahoo.com Date: Fri Jan 20, 2012 4:26 pm ((PST)) Doc, I'd disagree with that -- there is a lot of value in seeing how others people solve the same problem. This is also an area in which I'd like more knowledge. I figure that a lathe type boring bar (i.e. tool sticking out the side of the bar) is how you'd cut a pulley keyway. To cut a square hole in the middle of a piece, that you have to start with a drilled hole, and use a smaller cutting tool that plunges into the work -- i.e. oriented parallel to the table or 90* different from how we usually use a cutting tool. For example, if I wanted to make the above-mentioned boring bar with a 1/4" square hole, I'd need to make a piece of tooling that holds a 1/8" cutting tool first. Right? a ------- Re: bore a rectangular hole Posted by: "Doc" n8as1x~xxaol.com docn8as Date: Fri Jan 20, 2012 9:34 pm ((PST)) Alan...yes.., or grind a 1/4in lathe bit down to 1/8in......i have not shaped a 1/4 sq hole .....i take a 1/4 in lathe bit, square the end, may or may not grind a tad clearance back of the edges & "beat" the lathe bit (call it a single tooth broach) thru a hole drilled maybe 1/32 large ....have done more than several, the largest being .455 for knuckle buster antique 12in 4 jaw (external square screws moving jaws .....never figured out why that size, but my 10 in 4 jaw is the same ... it takes a heavy hammer, minimum 32 oz, heavier is better ...& i do mean BEAT it thru, first one i only went in a little, removed, cleared & went deeper ...not necessary. the square holes i shaped required a bit less than 1/2 size after grinding relief & clearance,,...kinda looked like a tear drop .....if i do any more, i will mount a square bit in a holder horizontally w/ back clearance everywhere, maybe abt 2/3 the hole size & see what i can do ....the straight thru holder in the clapper that i made for my Atlas takes removable size bars,...(the front part past the thread & nut is a round bar w/ a 1/2 in hole & a grub screw for different sized bars. re a 1/4 in hole ...it is a trial & error grinding clearances & starting at the middle of the square ...,moving to the corner, then either rotating the bar or the part for the next corner. the straight thru bars for the steptoe shaper are the same as i described to make ......their sizes wud be of no value for another machine's clapper dimensions. i cud maybe use a borrowed camera & jpeg some pics if i had an e mail address, (& maybe i wont remember how if i dont find my notes), but i do not know how to post pics on the board ...i barely can navigate a computer, & when things foul up, "all is lost"....i never saw a computer till abt age 70 & that was 10 yrs ago. my g/kids have to guide me by the nose & get me out of trouble .....for a start, i dont even understand digital language ...the words dont mean the same thing to me. caveat ..use safety glasses & dont let anyone see you using a steel hammer on a hardened lathe bit (it's a no no, but i also finish grind lathe bits on the side of the wheel at times...)...yes occasionally i have chipped one, but never unusable. best wishes docn8as .e. oriented parallel to the table or 90* different from how we usually use a cutting tool. For example, if I wanted to make the above-mentioned boring bar with a 1/4" square hole, I'd need to make a piece of tooling that holds a 1/8" cutting tool first. Right? ------- Re: bore a rectangular hole Posted by: "Doc" n8as1x~xxaol.com docn8as Date: Fri Jan 20, 2012 9:43 pm ((PST)) > i.e. oriented parallel to the table or 90* different from how we > usually use a cutting tool the one hole i shaped out, i used a regular lathe boring bar & ended up w/ a teardrop shaped bit a tad under 1/2 size ... as i stated, the NEXT time if i shape out a square, i will use a square bit mounted horizontal w/ relief back of the edges AND probably rake on the bottom ...(which wud be fun to grind in on 4 sides...., maybe only from 2 sides, so i can go side to side????) doc ------- Re: bore a rectangular hole Posted by: "Rick Sparber" rgsparberx~xxaol.com Date: Sat Jan 21, 2012 4:56 am ((PST)) I read about this trick about 20 years ago and have used it. Mount the piece in a mill with the major axis of the piece on the X-axis. Take a 2 flute end mill and drill through to the center of where you want the square hole. Raise the end mill to half the depth and cut a slot that is wide enough that the flanks have no curve near the hole. Flip the piece over and run the end mill through the hole for alignment. Clamp the part down in the same orientation as before. Set the end mill for half depth. Then cut a slot along the Y-axis of the same length. Remove piece. As you move from one face of the hole to the other, you encounter, say, the top and bottom walls of the square hole. After passing half way through, you encounter the left and right sides. Rick Rick.Sparber.org ------- Re: bore a rectangular hole Posted by: "alan lapp" alanbataarx~xxyahoo.com Date: Sat Jan 21, 2012 11:07 am ((PST)) Very clever - that gives the "appearance" of a square hole, and will keep a square object aligned in the hole. What a cool solution. a ------- Re: bore a rectangular hole Posted by: "RG Sparber" rgsparberx~xxaol.com Date: Sat Jan 21, 2012 6:39 pm ((PST)) I've used it on a boring bar. The author of the idea was Ken Gentry of Houston, TX. I don't know if he figured it out or was just reporting it. Rick ------- Re: bore a rectangular hole Posted by: "Doc" n8as1x~xxaol.com docn8as Date: Sat Jan 21, 2012 8:05 am ((PST)) o. k. never even thot of milling square holes in the boring bars i made ...just used a squared off lathe bit as a broach & pounded it thru a 1/32 larger hole w/ a 3# hammer ...will try it on the 45 deg holes ... the traditional falling block action receiver had a rectangular hole maybe something like 2x3 ......(from memory, & not measuring) BUT did not have rounded corners ...which accounts for the fact that i have seen ballard receivers w/ a longitudinal angled crack at one of the rear corners due to hardening stresses in a sharp angle .....in that action, the links take all the stress, there is none on the end of the rectangular hole, which is why it shud not be used for high velocity smokeless cartridges.....certainly one can file the corners square, & FWIW i dont see why the sliding block could not have a rounded corner to fit, except more fitting problems ...the corners can also be milled out like the inside corner of a precision square, but that wud be aesthetically offensive. Walter Mueller, wrote an article on the falling block design rifle he built ..it is available in a book form from village press, under $20 ....anyone building his own should read this ......EXPLICIT directions for everything & he is typical german craftsman meticulous.....where i went to grade school before moving from town, we sang christmas carols in German in public school, & i had early exposure. Walter cut the block recess w/ a MILL after roughing out, ..he fashioned a shaper bit & manually brought the bit down to shave out the corners, in effect turning the mill into a manual slotter,,, & when i considered making one of my own design, that was the way i wud have gone. ------- Re: bore a rectangular hole Posted by: "RG Sparber" rgsparberx~xxaol.com Date: Sat Jan 21, 2012 6:11 pm ((PST)) Doc, This idea came from the book "Practical Ideasâ" by the editors of American Machinist. Great little book packed with amazing ideas. It is from Penton Publishing and does not have an ISBN. Rick ------- Re: bore a rectangular hole Posted by: "Dale Gardner" gardner.dale.ax~xxgmail.com Date: Sat Jan 21, 2012 9:29 am ((PST)) Don't have a drawing, but here are a couple pictures of the shop-made tool holder that came with one of my Atlas 7B shapers. This is pretty much what Doc describes. Dale ------- Re: bore a rectangular hole [2 Attachments] Posted by: "Doc" n8as1x~xxaol.com docn8as Date: Sat Jan 21, 2012 10:12 am ((PST)) Dale ..right on ....tnx for the fine pics.!!!!!!!...i am not computer competent to post pics ..i have managed to send some J pegs at one time, when computer was behaving & i cud still remember how. FWIW.....the bar i made of my atlas 7 was thick enuf to carry a 1/2 in hole in front of the threads, for replaceable bars of different sizes ....& really dont know how good an idea that was !!!! your pics are the standard type that have been in use for, more than 100 yrs, (two of them came w/ my 1900 steptoe 16 in, slightly bent from careless use..) & the cutting tip oriented UP is preferred for internal slotting, by taking the backlash out of the slide (clapper must be locked)......angle plates w/ a slot were used by those shops doing a lot of internal keyway work ...the gears cud be held much more solidly than by just grasping the lower chord of the gear in the vise .... best wishes doc ------- Re: bore a rectangular hole Posted by: "Nelson Collar" nel2larx~xxyahoo.com Date: Sat Jan 21, 2012 10:38 am ((PST)) the way you say to do it sounds like you have some blacksmith in ya Nelson Collar ------- Re: bore a rectangular hole Posted by: "Doc" n8as1x~xxaol.com docn8as Date: Sat Jan 21, 2012 5:08 pm ((PST)) well, i have a decent anvil & have done some "hot work", but claim no special expertise .....i wud need another lifetime to master all the skills i am interested in ...i WAS FORTUNATE to be reared at a time when i kid cud get hired & fortunate to be 6 feet before age 14, in an area where there were MANY tradesman of various skills, so at one time or another before & after being a dentist for 20 years, i have made a living in at least a half dozen trades, even if only for a short time in some ......i hung around Pitmans bicycle shop so long that he finally put me to work at age 11, tightening spokes ....... anyway, these holes were done "cold" ...i have posted abt this method, if we can call it that, however, i dont think anyone has believed me ...but i have the chuck keys in use for proof....as well as some boring bars....a 20 T hydraulic press wud be more "genteel " but i dont have one. a heavy hammer can be a valuable "tool" or a violently detructive weapon, depending upon its user ... FWIW ...i have also broached several keyways carefully using a lead hammer for lack of a keyseating machine or decent press..., before i acquired a decent shaper....as well as a few w/ hacksaw, cape chisel & file, "makin do" a long time ago .... best wishes docn8as ------- Re: bore a rectangular hole Posted by: "Matthew Tinker" mattinkerx~xxyahoo.com Date: Sun Jan 22, 2012 2:49 am ((PST)) Doc, not only do I believe you, I use your method myself! If you are fortunate enough to own a press or use, this can replace the large hammer. I have a very large selection of hammers! A broach is a form of chisel, I learnt to use a cold chisel very early on, before I owned a milling machine, I would cut semi circular Woodruf key ways in shafts with a custom made narrow chisel. A sharp hardish cutting tool and a hammer will get you a long way! Regards, Matthew Matthew TINKER CNC conversion 1944 Colchester Lathe build-up log http://www.cnczone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=35519 ------- Re: bore a rectangular hole Posted by: "Doc" n8as1x~xxaol.com docn8as Date: Sun Jan 22, 2012 4:31 pm ((PST)) > A sharp hardish cutting tool and a hammer will get you a long way! Amen ...there was a time that, plus a hacksaw & file, was abt all i had. tnx for the affirmation. best wishes doc ------- Links for Shaper tutorials [Metal_Shapers] Posted by: "Edmund" holmes_ca_2000x~xxyahoo.com Date: Tue May 15, 2012 4:14 pm ((PDT)) These tutorials are written or produced by author Sam Brown, http://www.eurospares.com/graphics/Tools/shapers/PMKnowYourShaper.pdf http://www.scribd.com/doc/14899971/Atlas-7B-Shaper-Contour-Cutting http://www.wentztech.com/metalworking/equipment/altas-shaper/ Edmund ------- Re: Links for Shaper tutorials Posted by: "dmmlemur" dmmx~xxlemur.com Date: Wed May 16, 2012 2:35 pm ((PDT)) Edmund wrote: > These tutorials are written or produced by author Sam Brown, Sam Brown was, in my opinion, the finest technical writer ever. It's worth searching through old Popular Mechanics to find his stuff. He also wrote many of the extraordinary books on optics that were published by the former Edmund Scientific company. The successor to that company, Edmund Optics (they sold off the "Edmund Scientific" brand in 2001), through their "Anchor Optics" commercial/experimental optics subsidiary, has many of these online, for free download, at: http://www.anchoroptics.com/documents/ (I know that this is optics, not shapers, but they're just such good books...) Back to shapers per se: As a part of bringing my Logan ES8 back into trim, I did a search through the web for shaper information. There's a fair bit of it available, but it's pretty scattered. So I put together a page of annotated links (mostly) to what I could find. See: http://www.circuitousroot.com/artifice/machine-shop/shaper/lit erature/index.html The "Suggested Unit Course in Shaper Work" by the Seneca Vocational High School (1944) is excellent. Regards, David M. MacMillan www.CircutiousRoot.com ------- What are you making on your shapers [Metal_Shapers] Posted by: "john" John.Burridgex~xxfsmail.net Date: Tue Jun 19, 2012 2:43 pm ((PDT)) Hi to all, The site seems to of gone quite at the moment. What are you using your shaper to make and are you trying to do something you have thought you couldn't do with a shaper? yours for now John Burridge ------- Re: What are you making on your shapers Posted by: "Geoff" vk2tfgx~xxozemail.com.au Date: Wed Jun 20, 2012 2:25 am ((PDT)) Making? I'm using my newly acquired Lock tool co 10" shaper to make a model aeroplane engine crankcase. The lump of ally [aluminium] bar I'm whittling down is long enough that I need to pay attention to setup before I throw the switch :-). Cheers, Geoff -------- Re: What are you making on your shapers Posted by: "jeremy youngs" jcyoungs76x~xxgmail.com Date: Wed Jun 20, 2012 5:51 am ((PDT)) Well, since you asked, I'm making a table and a tool post for it; then I plan to make an Aloris type tool post for my lathe with it. Jeremy Youngs ------- Re: What are you making on your shapers Posted by: "Doc" n8as1x~xxaol.com docn8as Date: Tue Jun 19, 2012 2:58 pm ((PDT)) current project is making a follower rest for barnes #41/2 ......setting up to cut a 55 deg dovetail required for x slide mounting ........worked well for the stdy rest needing same taper for the bed.. just finished making gooseneck slotting tools for two of them ....they doubled the DOC [Depth Of Cut] without chatter. also the width of tool bit was near doubled. best wishes doc ------- Re: What are you making on your shapers Posted by: "David Carne" chukka02x~xxtiscali.co.uk Date: Wed Jun 20, 2012 4:40 am ((PDT)) Would be interested in the making of the tools to cut the dovetails. Regards David ------- Re: What are you making on your shapers Posted by: "Doc" n8as1x~xxaol.com docn8as Date: Wed Jun 20, 2012 1:46 pm ((PDT)) first shape out the wide slot a few thou shy & shape out clearance in the middle of the work, ....then start on the angle. for a 60deg dovetail, i wud grind the bit to look just like the angle only 50+ deg not 60 ...i wud use side rake angling away from the angle of the dovetail ....clearance on both sides......for roughing i set the bit near flat horizontally, allowing heavier cuts ...for finish i stone it & set it as flat as i can get by with against the angle ..if REALLY picky, i may grind a flat on the angle part & set the flat against the angle... then finish the horizontal w/ the same bit ......stndrd practice used to be to leave a couple thou for final file /scraper fitting. ....sometimes, the armstrong tool holder works out better for deeper dovetails, than the multi angle shaper tool head......& sometimes i replace the tool post w/ a triangular turret (like a lathe turret tool holder only 3 sided....less clearance problems than the 4 sided one.... the turret is bolted to a bar w/ a lip contacting the rear recess of the clapper & having a nut in front of clapper to lock it up. best wishes doc ------- Re: What are you making on your shapers Posted by: "David Carne" chukka02x~xxtiscali.co.uk Date: Thu Jun 21, 2012 1:53 am ((PDT)) Hi doc, Thanks for info when I get time I will give it a go. Regards David ------- Re: What are you making on your shapers Posted by: "armnex~xxsbcglobal.net" armnex~xxsbcglobal.net Date: Thu Jun 21, 2012 8:47 am ((PDT)) I am making a micro-Aloris tool post for my taig lathe. Alec Ryals ------- Re: What are you making on your shapers Posted by: "ar1911" burkheimerx~xxgmail.com Date: Fri Jun 22, 2012 5:48 am ((PDT)) Well, so far all I've used mine for is to mix paint ;) Works well too! [later message] Date: Sat Jun 23, 2012 5:31 pm ((PDT)) I probably have a short video. Can I post a video in the photos section? But seriously, all I do is use nylon zip/wire-ties to hold a gallon of paint against the end of the clapper. I half expected it to break loose and sling paint over half the shop, but it stayed put even at mid-range speeds. Running it even faster just froths the paint. I run it an hour or so while I prep the object to be painted. Works like a charm. ------- Chip Control [Metal_Shapers] Posted by: "derstine2002" derstine2002x~xxyahoo.com Date: Sat Jun 23, 2012 6:05 pm ((PDT)) Hello all, I'm curious on how you control the chips that get spewed all over the place from your shaper. I have contemplated having a bucket with 2 rods extending up to the shaper at an splayed angle and have a shower curtain or something attached to each rod to catch the chips and drop them down into the bucket. Jerry ------- Re: Chip Control Posted by: "Doc" n8as1x~xxaol.com docn8as Date: Sat Jun 23, 2012 10:14 pm ((PDT)) you make a "catcher" ... my 20 inch Mitts Merril came w/ a sheet steel box ....sides, end, partial bottom, angle T slots to hold it .... the Village Press book The Wisdom Of Frank Mclean has his design for an atlas shaper, made of plywood. doc ------- Re: Chip Control Posted by: "Jon" mc_n_gx~xxyahoo.com Date: Tue Jul 3, 2012 1:17 pm ((PDT)) I am a little late to the game but I use a piece of cardboard angled down to redirect the chips to a waiting box below. I was planning on making an angled-type funnel out of sections of carboard at the bottom to get the chips in one smaller box or bucket. I would not use anything plastic or vinyl as a hot chip can melt onto it. Just a thought. ------- Re: Chip Control Posted by: "samuel" visicoachx~xxcomcast.net Date: Thu Jul 5, 2012 5:53 am ((PDT)) Try this: I use a baking pan about 10x12" pinched between the table support, works perfectly. ------- Re: Chip Control Posted by: "Rex Burkheimer" burkheimerx~xxgmail.com Date: Thu Jul 5, 2012 5:53 am ((PDT)) I use a piece of hard plastic about 12" wide and 16" long, with a hole bored about 7" from the top, centered. I just hang this on the vise screw sticking out over the table. This drops 90% of the chips into the cardboard box on the floor below. If the vise is oriented to the side, I have a small fixture that clamps to the table with a stud to hang the deflector from. Rex B - DFW ------- NOTE TO FILE: The following conversation about using a metal shaper to machine dovetails was a spin-off of a conversation about a new owner's experiences with an Atlas metal shaper. You can view the rest of that conversation in the file Atlas Metal Shaper here, starting Dec 9, 2012. ------- Re: New to the discussion group - new Atlas 7B ow ner [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: "Doc" n8as1x~xxaol.com docn8as Date: Tue Dec 11, 2012 11:08 am ((PST)) recently finished making steady rest, follower rew, & thread sop for Barnes lathe .. FIFTY FIVE degree dovetails needed.....adjusted the atlas shaper head for 55 deg, cranking down the top slide & EASY. check the price of a 55 deg special grind dovetail mill cutter !! PLUS in the event of a "wreck", i regrind a $.85 bit in a couple minutes. the 16 inch HD smith mills shaper i bought at auction from a closed tool/die shop ....an employee said they used it for "hogging off" since using it was faster than the 3 bridgeports there...interesting! it WILL take a 1/2 inch doc [depth of cut] on 1018... but why strain an ole tymer? best wishes doc ------- Re: New to the discussion group - new Atlas 7B ow ner Posted by: "Mark Hofer" markahoferx~xxmac.com Date: Tue Dec 11, 2012 11:35 am ((PST)) Sorry, I can't visualize the dovetail cutting orientation. Yes, the head can be swiveled but it still travels perpendicular to the table. The workpiece needs to be held so one surface of the 55 degree dovetail is parallel to the vertical travel of the head. Swiveling the head to 55 does not result in a 55 degree cut, at least not on my shaper but maybe I'm missing something? M ------- Re: New to the discussion group - new Atlas 7B ow ner Posted by: "Doc" n8as1x~xxaol.com docn8as Date: Tue Dec 11, 2012 1:51 pm ((PST)) IIRC the angular markings are based on vertical alignment on the atlas, therefore one must set the head to the complement angle ..90deg minus 55 deg. once the table is positioned it does NOT move ...the top slide is moved & it moves at the designated ANGLE TOWARDS the work ....since there is no power feed on the atlas top slide, one "RIDES " the ram w/ the arm around the top slide, putting on the downward angle feed on the return stroke, abt a few thou /stroke. some larger shapers have in addition to power feed on the top slide, a universal table which has positioning at compound angles. i made a follow rest for my 1895 14 inch reed lathe & again, i needed 55 deg ...when i made the carriage stop, i needed an angle of 85 deg... both requiring special grinds for mill cutters. best wishes doc ------- Re: New to the discussion group - new Atlas 7B ow ner Posted by: "Mark Hofer" markahoferx~xxmac.com Date: Tue Dec 11, 2012 1:52 pm ((PST)) Ah, I'm just an idiot, went down and looked at my shaper (which is what I should have done first) and of course it works as the head travels in the direction it is set - set it at 55° and as the head cranks down it moves along that angle. Sorry, just another senior moment M ------- Re: New to the discussion group - new Atlas 7B ow ner Posted by: "Grady Ewing" close_ratio1971x~xxyahoo.com Date: Tue Dec 11, 2012 1:52 pm ((PST)) When making finishing cuts on the dovetail the table does not move or advance in any way you use the "compound" to advance down into the inside corner of the dovetail. Take a look at the popular mechanics article "know your shaper" old but good stuff. I bet it is in the file section somewhere. ------- Re: New to the discussion group - new Atlas 7B ow ner Posted by: "Mark Hofer" markahoferx~xxmac.com Date: Tue Dec 11, 2012 1:55 pm ((PST)) And indeed it is, thanks Grady, still 'getting to know mine' ! M ------- Re: Keyways [Metal_Shapers] Posted by: mctaglierix~xxgmail.com Date: Mon Sep 2, 2013 11:48 am ((PDT)) 15 August 2013, Steve Talbot wrote: >> Hi, I know you can use a shaper to cut internal & external keyways, cutting into an undercut or hole, but is it possible to cut a keyway up to a shoulder without using a hole or undercut for the runout? Regards, Steve T (UK) << August 15, 2013 Richard Wilson wrote: > Hi. Thats a tricky one in my experience. It's probably possible in cast iron, where the chips are small and break off easily, less so in steel where the chips tend to curl up in front of the tool and would pile up against the shoulder.I don't know about aluminium as I rarely use it. Another solution is to bore out large, make a bush with the internal keyway, then Locset the bush into the component. Richard < If you set the shaper to a slow enough stroke, couldn't you just remove the swarf with needle-nose pliers or tweezers after each cut? As long as you didn't get any body parts in between the ram and the work, I think this would be safe enough, and each stroke could go as far as the previous one, without interference by chips. Mike Taglieri ------- Re: Keyways Posted by: "JRWilliams" jrwillmsx~xxhal-pc.org Date: Mon Sep 2, 2013 2:37 pm ((PDT)) Cut a groove with a long key cutter at the end of the desired key way and then finish the key way with the shaper. You need space for the chip. ------- Re: Keyways Posted by: "Nelson Collar" nel2larx~xxyahoo.com Date: Tue Sep 3, 2013 2:09 am ((PDT)) I lost something there. Why are we doing two set ups on two machines that either machine could do alone? ------- Re: Keyways Posted by: "JRWilliams" jrwillmsx~xxhal-pc.org Date: Tue Sep 3, 2013 10:50 am ((PDT)) The milling machine cannot cut an internal key way. ------- Re: Keyways Posted by: mortimerx~xxwn.com.au Date: Thu Sep 5, 2013 3:43 pm ((PDT)) Oh yes it can. I have been doing just that recently on small worm gear; lock the head up; turn power off; and use a similar tool as would be used in a shaper. Not for mass production. Gets a bloke out of a sticky job. A little brain power goes a long way. charles ------- Re: Keyways Posted by: jmartin957x~xxaol.com Date: Wed Sep 4, 2013 2:49 am ((PDT)) "Safe enough", with a shaper, isn't. I consider the shaper one of the most dangerous machines in the shop. It isn't likely to break a cutter or throw a chip into your eye. There is no high speed grinding wheel to disintegrate. Its action is slow, deliberate, quiet - and that's the problem. It lulls - maybe even hypnotizes - you into overconfidence. You want to use your finger to brush those chips away....I know I do.... Now, I've never tried a cut to a stop like that, so these are just my thoughts. While it would be nice to think that you can get the complete chip out, there may be some left packed in at the end. So the next stroke won't go quite as far. Pretty soon, something will have to give. What if you run the shaper by hand? I've got a hole on the flywheel for a handle. So, you can stop the cut if any residue is packing up, and not risk a powered cut that might move the workpiece, break the cutter or stall the machine. Run it by hand, and you don't have to worry about your fingers or those pliers or tweezers either. It will be slow, but unless it's a production job it probably won't matter. One option might be to run with some serious back rake to the cutter, so that the only part of the cutter going to the end of the cut would be the sharp edge. That way, the cutter would not run into any chip residue from previous cuts - it would be beneath them. You'd probably want a very small bottom clearance angle and tight gibs to keep the cutter from digging in. Sort of like paring or mortising with a wood chisel. Again, these are just thoughts that I've never tried. Someday, if I have to, maybe I will. John ------- Re: Keyways Posted by: davisx~xxfrizzen.com Date: Thu Sep 5, 2013 3:42 pm ((PDT)) I think the end of the chip would remain connected to the end of the keyway at the end of the stroke. You might be able to do a single stoke, break it off, repeat until done. That would leave a ragged end to the keyway. Perhaps you could clean that up with a narrow cape chisel at the bench. ------- Re: Keyways Posted by: mortimerx~xxwn.com.au Date: Thu Sep 5, 2013 3:43 pm ((PDT)) If you are running a keyway be it a 1/2 inch wide or 1/8, the end should be predrilled for the cutter to end in so that there is no fowling up of chips, and the ram properly adjusted so that the stroke ends on the centre of the drilling. The shaper is safe enough -- no dangerous than a mill or a lathe. If you require to get rid of a chip, use a 1/2 inch long-handle artist's brush -- exactly the same as you would use on a mill (you only get bitten once). And I still have half a thumb to show for it. All I can say is keep your bloody fingers out of the business end. Anyway a small keyway with stopped ends should be done on a milling machine, although a single stopped end keyway can be done on the shaper. And if it is a short keyway, unplug the machine and operate by hand. A shaper and a mill complement one-another. Just because one has bought a shaper does not mean you can get rid of the mill. charles ------- Re: Keyways Posted by: mctaglierix~xxgmail.com Date: Sat Sep 7, 2013 9:59 pm ((PDT)) I like John's idea of turning the shaper by hand, which would let you manually remove the swarf without any danger. Has anybody ever tried using a hand-crank on a shaper? Attaching one to the hand wheel of the South Bend shaper would be easy (though you'd have to crank it a lot for each stroke). Mike Taglieri ------- Blind Keyways [was "Keyways" in Metal_Shapers group] Posted by: meschirox~xxbigpond.com Date: Sat Sep 7, 2013 8:04 am ((PDT)) Cutting Keyways in blind holes can be done in different ways. 1/ If the hole is bored on a lathe all you have to do is cut a recess to the depth of the keyway at the end of the hole for clearence. 2/ In a pulley, gear, boss or whatever that is of reasonably small diameter, a hole can be drilled in from the side to create the clearance. This hole does not have to be at right angles to the bore so it can come in at an angle from any direction. The bigger the hole the easier it is. You may need to blow down this hole to remove the swarf out of the bore. Watch your eyes. If needed this hole may be tapped and plugged with an allen setscrew and a bit of locktite or fingernail polish if it needs to be sealed. A larger hole may be able to be drilled from the opposite side of the item in line with the keyway. (If this is possible you may even be able to just drill the item and the shaft, tap it and screw in an allen setscrew and not bother with a key, although this will cut out the thrill of using the shaper.) 3/ Machine a plug to suit the bore and drill and tap it to fit a bolt so that it can be removed. If the plug is tapped right through the bolt can be wound right through it and be used to push the plug out. Push the plug into the hole until it is flush with the surface and then centre pop on the joint line in the position that you want the keyway. Drill a hole of a diameter almost as large as the key way right down the joint line. If the hole is a little deeper than the bore it will give a little more clearence. Remove the plug, then use the shaper to remove what little metal that is left. 4/ Use an angle vice and tilt the item back and cut a tapered keyway up into the bore so you use the bore as the clearance. You then grind (or shape) the key with a taper like a Gib key so that it fits parallel in the shaft and into the taper in the item. You would probably be better off if you cut the keyway with a steeper taper and make a special key rather than modifying a standard key as this will give a much better purchase in the item. If you put a setscrew into the key, make sure that is a cupped screw that will bite into the key and lock it in, rather than a round or flat screw that will tend to push it out. 5/ Very tedious but there is always the Dremel if you can reach in with it. Just engrave a clearence in line with where you want the keyway. This may be sped up a bit by gripping the item in the angle vice and drilling into the bottom of the bore at an angle to give clearence and to take some metal out. Messy but no one will ever see it, but then again, if you are anything like me, you will know that it is there and that is bloody well enough to annoy you. Happy Shaping Ian Messenger Western Australia ------- Re: Blind Keyways Posted by: "Charles" xlch58x~xxswbell.net Date: Sat Sep 7, 2013 11:07 pm ((PDT)) I would also add, machine a tight fitting plug for the hole and drill the length of the keyway undersize, then finish it using more normal means. The chip is smaller and easier to manage. The tapered keyway you suggest also opens the possibility of finishing it out square with a die sinker, die filer or Dremel. Charles ------- Re: Parallelogram [Metal_Shapers] Posted by: "Charles Brumbelow" mrb37211x~xxyahoo.com Date: Wed Sep 11, 2013 3:08 pm ((PDT)) On Sep 9, 2013, wrote: > When I resurface all sides of a block i end up with a parallelogram. > What can I do to avoid this. I am new to shapers. Any help would be > appreciated. Larry Is the table surface on which you are clamping the block exactly parallel to the path of the ram -- both side to side and front to back? Is there play or slop anywhere along the ram's travel? Likewise, is there play or slop in the table? Check those first. Charles ------- Re: Parallelogram Posted by: "alan lapp" alanbataarx~xxyahoo.com Date: Thu Sep 12, 2013 2:10 am ((PDT)) On my Rhodes shaper, the lower gib also adjusts perpendicularity/ parallelism to the ram. If you don't already have a tenths indicator (.0001") and an adjustable magnetic base/indicator holder (I'm very fond of my Noga indicator holder) get one of each. Mount the indicator to your ram. It's true that you could mount the indicator in the tool post like you would in a lathe, and crank the table to put each part of the table under the indicator, but I favor the articulated indicator holder because you can check multiple places on the table without ever moving the table. To illustrate why this is superior, imagine what the indicator readings would be if the table cross slide ways were propellor shaped. Sweep the table using the ram to move the indicator. If your table is true to the ram and you're still getting bad parts, check your vise. Use a 123 block held in the jaws of your vise and invert the vise so the vise bottom is facing up. Use the indicator on the bottom of the vise. The vise bottom should be "zero zero", i.e. the needle on the indicator does not move. If the reading is not "zero zero", you'll need to find a way to square up the bottom of the vise. Also, search on the Yahoo Metal Shaper files section for the process for "squaring up a block" by Rick, who's last name I can't recall at the moment. It should be a PDF. Alternately, use Google with the same search terms. There is a definite order and technique to the process. a ------- Re: Parallelogram Posted by: "Doc" n8as1x~xxaol.com docn8as Date: Thu Sep 12, 2013 1:04 pm ((PDT)) > Use a 123 block held in the jaws of your vise and invert the vise so > the vise bottom is facing up. Use the indicator on the bottom of the > vise. The vise bottom should be "zero zero", i.e. the needle on the > indicator what a great idea !!!!.... a 123 block wud be square & wud easily seat w/ a tap ...quick & easy to indicate ....thnx for that one. every vise i have checked, new & used has needed correction to be true, ususally the fixed jaw .... some were close, some were really bad .... one of the best was the shop made 6 inch machinery steel one that came w/ my pre civil war E Gould .....FWIW ... i have never owned a KURT vise .... just cud not bring myself to spend more for the vise than i did for a machine to use it .... so maybe that is why??? best wishes doc ------- Re: Parallelogram Posted by: "Doc" n8as1x~xxaol.com docn8as Date: Thu Sep 12, 2013 1:31 pm ((PDT)) first put an indicator in the tool post & manually indicate the table as you make the stroke ..shud be pretty near true unless you have no front support & have table sag...if you have a front support, crank the table up & raise the front & lock it .... if there is sag, the front support can be elevated to compensate. next indiate the vise in w/ jaws perpendicular to the ram, again w/ indicator & or a square. next indicate the seat of vise for true. next indicate the solid vise jaw for true w/ a square & indicator .... if it is out, paper shim between jaws & body. after all this is true use a dowel or drill bit between movable jaw & part & seat the part w/ a dead blow hammer, lead hammer or rawhide hammer .... one whack to seat it. rotate the part just cut so it is on the bottom w/ the same surface originally against the solid jaw still against it .... again use a dowel & dead blow. now you have two parallel surfaces to clamp on..... & continue to square up using dead blows to seat. buy a copy of machine tool operation Vol 2 by Burghardt .... much info on shaper /planer operation ....any edition, ebay or Abe Books .... usually abt $10 .... vol 1 is all lathe & bench work. best wishes doc ------- Re: Parallelogram Posted by: "alan lapp" alanbataarx~xxyahoo.com Date: Sat Sep 14, 2013 7:47 am ((PDT)) Doc raises a good procedural point: the table must be locked in the vertical axis before making a cut. ------- Re: Parallelogram Posted by: "Jim Ash" ashcanx~xxearthlink.net Date: Sat Sep 14, 2013 5:26 pm ((PDT)) Sep 13, 2013, Ed Maisey wrote: > Larry, can you express in more detail the exact process you go through, > there are six sides to the block of metal, what is the setup you use > to machine the 5 and 6 faces, are faces 1-2-3-4 all square to each > other, not enough detail in 1-1/2 lines of text, .... Edmund If I read your question correctly, it's really about originating a perpendicular surface. In the shaper case, you're ultimately shooting for getting your fixed vice jaw perpendicular to your ram stroke. The easiest way is to indicate using a know square, as Doc suggested. If you're the guy who has to originate these things yourself (as I generally am), one way is to machine up an L-shaped piece of scrap, cutting the two exterior long sides. Slam the piece in the vice and cut the first edge crudely perpendicular to it, then flip it over so the freshly-cut edge is against the fixed vice jaw and cut the other edge. At this point you've got two straight edges, but with no knowledge of perpendicularity. Now leaving the same edge against the vice jaw, flip the work over so the newly-cut edge is on the other side of the vice. Indicate your ram stroke against this edge. If things are perpendicular, the indicator won't move. If not, then you need to move your vice and re-cut the second leg again. If you use the same ram stroke for each measurement (the longer the better, to eliminate extrapolation error), note the indicator variance. Move the vice until the variance is half of what it was, then re-cut the second leg and try again. This 'halving' of the measurement will help things converge on perpendicularity more quickly and save you work. Once you've got this done, you now have the added benefit of having made your own square. Because this vice mounting procedure can be a pain, some folks clamp a reference strip to their tables against the vice. If they have to pull the vice, they leave the reference strip. When they go to re-mount the vice, they slam it up next to the reference strip as it was originally and they're good to go again, without all the indicator hassles. Jim Ash ------- Re: Parallelogram Posted by: "john baird" alexandra.leavingx~xxyahoo.co.uk Date: Sat Sep 14, 2013 9:39 pm ((PDT)) Hi, there is a YouTube video on squaring stock in Tom's Techniques -- sorry don't have a link; he uses a vertical mill but it is the same process. He does some pretty good videos, well worth a look. Regards jb ------- Re: Parallelogram Posted by: "Steve T" steve.talbotx~xxtiscali.co.uk Date: Mon Sep 16, 2013 1:25 pm ((PDT)) I would also recommend the following website. The item on squaring a block is for the mill but also applies on the shaper. Also some good info on the shaper and operations. http://rick.sparber.org/cblock.pdf Regards, Steve T ------- Accuracy using a shaper [Metal_Shapers] Posted by: "Glen Linscheid" partsproductionx~xxcenturylink.net Date: Wed Dec 11, 2013 9:27 am ((PST)) Dec 11, 2013, Louis Schoolkate wrote: >> I also did a lot of searching around for something for my 11" Vernon (predecessor of the Sheldons). I ended up with an Enco 5" clone of the typical lock down vise. With the swivel base it is a bit higher than the original but meets my needs and just fits on the 7 x 10 table. Watch the weight. I think the original vises were lighter than the ones we have today. I already have a 6" Kurt and it noticeably sagged the table (testing with an indicator) when I tried it out at first. That was with tight gibs. << December 11, 2013 "Tucker Tomlinson" wrote: > That's interesting - I'd have thought that the shaper puts more load on the table when cutting than the weight of the vise. I thought that was why many shapers had the supporting foot to prop up the front of the table. guess that goes to prove the old adage about assuming. < Tucker, On my first day in the machine shop a grouchy old retired machinist brought back to teach me told me that if a lathe if doing a fine finish cut and I put my hand on the carriage that could throw it off 1/2 a thousandth. The point is all machine tools are much more flexible than we assume, though the movements are very small. There is no doubt that the table support is there to keep it from sagging away from the cutting action, and since there always is movement that brings up a question about locking the vertical slide of the table once set. If one brings the table to the height desired, then locks the table support, and then lowers the table to take pressure off the screw and then locks the saddle vertical locks has any accuracy been lost. My point is that it seems to me that it should always be done the same way, raise the table or lower it below where one wants it and bring it back up, then lock the saddle vertical ways, then bring the outer support down and lock that. Perhaps I'm being picky here, but it seems to me that if the table is cleaned up with a very small cut after doing that, and then doing it the same way every time the accuracy one might expect repeating would have a better chance. It is possible to mix and match procedures. Just my thoughts on it. Glen Accuracy using a shaper Posted by: "Louis Schoolkate" l_schoolkatex~xxyahoo.com Date: Wed Dec 11, 2013 9:46 am ((PST)) I thought the same originally but since you have to release the supporting foot to move the table up and down the weight of a heavy vise factors in before it's locked for the cut. Once it's locked, the table is already tilted slightly down due to the sag and this impacts the cut. Not much but enough to cause problems. I tested the table with and without the vise and could easily measure the sag. I also tried lowering the table slightly on a locked foot but it's too variable to trust. ------- Re: Accuracy using a shaper Posted by: "Dennis Turk" dennis.turk2x~xxfrontier.com Date: Wed Dec 11, 2013 9:53 am ((PST)) I concur Glen as all machine tools are made of rubber. Given really hard rubber, but rubber never the less. Put an indicator in a spindle on a BP mill set the point against the side of the vice. Then reach up and put your hand on the head and give a little push. Watch the indicator go nuts. To me it has always been a wonder that these rubber machines are as accurate as they are. Also as far as putting your hand on the hand wheel never ever do this while your threading with the half nuts engaged. On larger lathes this little pressure will make it nearly impossible to disengage the half nuts. Ask me how I know. Cost me a work piece and a collet. :-(((((( Turk ------- Re: Accuracy using a shaper Posted by: "Doc" n8as1x~xxaol.com docn8as Date: Wed Dec 11, 2013 3:32 pm ((PST)) FWIW ... this validates the early info i once saw, stating that the roughing accuracy of the shaper was 5 thou & finish accuracy 2 thou ... leaving room for scraping in ...i am fairly sure they were talking of at least the normal industrial minimum of a circa 16 inch shaper. best wishes doc ------- Re: Accuracy using a shaper Posted by: "guycadx~xxnetzero.com" Date: Wed Dec 11, 2013 5:29 pm ((PST)) Talking of rubber....A few years ago I helped a friend in order to level his Boxford lathe (South Bend clones). As the master precision level was on the lathe bed, my friend happened to walk on his basement concrete floor. Believe it or not, the level bubble was moving depending on where he was standing around the lathe. I was a little bit surprised. Concrete slab must have been very thin. Guy Cadrin ------- Re: Accuracy using a shaper Posted by: "Glen Linscheid" partsproductionx~xxcenturylink.net Date: Wed Dec 11, 2013 6:31 pm ((PST)) Guy, It depends a lot on how thick the concrete is I think. Imagine a 40" shaper at high speed and a long stroke, I bet you could shake the ground with that. Glen ------- Re: Accuracy using a shaper Posted by: "JRWilliams" jrwillmsx~xxhal-pc.org Date: Wed Dec 11, 2013 6:32 pm ((PST)) Many of the old basement concrete floors were very thin, on the order of 1 " or 2 inches thick. ------- Re: Accuracy using a shaper Posted by: "guycadx~xxnetzero.com" guycadx~xxnetzero.net Date: Wed Dec 11, 2013 7:13 pm ((PST)) Even though it was a relatively new house, concrete floor thickness was our first question. Second thing, it depends on what is underneath the concrete. Remember... everything is made of rubber! It depends on how hard it is. Guy ------- Re: My new South Bend 7" [Metal_Shapers] Posted by: "Tucker Tomlinson" tuckertomlinsonx~xxgmail.com Date: Fri Dec 27, 2013 2:53 pm ((PST)) Hi Don, welcome. I too picked up a good condition SB7. In my case I needed to pull out the oil manifold as some chips had gotten in and really clogged the works, but everything else is solid. They are really nice little machines -- a good way to figure out shapers. If you are a relative novice like me I can recommend getting some scrap metal and playing with tool bit grinds just to see what works for roughing and finishing. There is good info in the forum archives and in the old manuals about what standard grinds are, but once you've read those nothing beats experience. I encountered some problems with the vertical slide self feeding during a heavy cut on a mild steel plate. It took me a while to pin down because this was due to a number of factors not one single thing: I had the slide extended a little too far and wasn't getting full purchase on the slide gib. The gibs for my box were slightly loose (just tight but not snug), and the gibs for my ram could be tightened up some. The relief on my tool bit grind wasn't sharp enough and was preventing the edge from cutting cleanly. Finally I had the auto feed feeding during the cut not the return (whoops). My personal checklist (after basic functionality) would be: - Snug all the gibs - Check auto feed to ensure feed is during return not the stroke - Place tool holder as high as possible in the lantern - Make sure vertical slide is roughly centered on the gib thumbscrew for maximum purchase - Start with standard tool grinds so you know what it looks like working well, (I jumped too quickly into messing with funny shaped grinds I read on forums). If you make sure you get these things right before you start you should avoid my mistakes. I've also found aluminum a joy to work with compared to steel, but there is a certain pleasure to watching blue smoking steel chips pop off your work one stroke at a time. I also like to keep a lever action oil can with the long flexible nozzle handy to add cutting oil to the cut without getting my fingers anywhere near the action. Once the ram gets going, there's no way your body can stop it. Cheers ------- Re: My new South Bend 7" Posted by: "Doc" n8as1x~xxaol.com docn8as Date: Fri Dec 27, 2013 3:40 pm ((PST)) FWIW .. when i am serious abt depth of cut being accurate & remaining constant, i always turn the top slide down beyond the desired doc [Depth Of Cut] & then back up to the desired number ..Then ALSO lock the slide ....this takes out the backlash & holds the slide in place preventing dig in .....for the same reason i near always cut UP when doing internal slotting for gear blanks, splines, or whatever.......AND use a straight line boring bar replacing the tool post rather than a cantilevered down armstrong type holder in the tool post. best wishes doc ------- Using a shaper to broach. [Metal_Shapers] Posted by: "Mike Fresnel" fredjenkinsx~xxearthlink.net Date: Mon Mar 3, 2014 9:16 pm ((PST)) Hello, I'm working on a 1911 style magwell (making frame from a billet) and I believe the usual big shop (as in manufacturer) way to do this is to broach or EDM the thing. Problem with broaching (I've read about) is that it can put deformation level loads on the surrounding structure. I'm working in aluminum on this one. I was wondering if it's practical to use a shaper to carve out the mag well on such a thing. The basic shape is an elongated D so why couldn't I get the frame in place, make a rectangular magwell, then finish it to the D profile on one end with the vertical crank and an obviously shaped cutter? I guess I'm asking if that's the proper approach with a shaper. I also have the same question regarding the magwell on an ar15, which are commonly done by hacking about with an end or EDM. In either case one often has to come at it from both ends and my shaper fantasy (I don't actually have one yet) is that I could set it up and do stem to stern from one end. Thanks, m ------- Re: Using a shaper to broach. Posted by: "William R Meyers" wmrmeyersx~xxsbcglobal.net oldstudentmsgt Date: Tue Mar 4, 2014 2:57 am ((PST)) I think it will work. Glen commented on something he called a "Poke Pole" and we have a drawing of such a thing in files as a shaper tool holder drawing by Art Volz. I am not an expert, either, but Glen is. I have already bought the stuff to make a poke pole of my own. ;) Still do not have the thing running, and should be out of here on my way to work right now! Bill in OKC William R. Meyers, MSgt, USAF(Ret.) Guard your women and children well, Send These Bastards Back to Hell We'll teach them the ways of war, They Won't Come Here Any More Use your shield and use your head, Fight till Every One is Dead Raise the flag up to the sky, How Many of Them Can We Make Die! Heather Alexander, March of Cambredth ------- Re: Using a shaper to broach. Posted by: "Charles Brumbelow" mrb37211x~xxyahoo.com Date: Tue Mar 4, 2014 2:58 am ((PST)) I think that roughing the openings with drill or end mill, then bringing them to size and contour with the shaper using a bit holder such as used for internal keyways would work. The smaller opening for the 1911 would require a smaller bit holder and thus smaller cuts. Charles ------- Re: Using a shaper to broach. Posted by: "Mike Fresnel" fredjenkinsx~xxearthlink.net Date: Wed Mar 5, 2014 4:28 pm ((PST)) Hey, Smaller cuts means smaller depth per cut right? I can still probably make the "tunnel" with full stroke cuts, and hence all from one side, as long as the machine is big enough, and stout enough, yes? Regards, m ps - not asking for a guarantee - just looking to try sane things first. ------- Re: Using a shaper to broach. Posted by: rocky_beechx~xxyahoo.com Date: Wed Mar 5, 2014 4:32 pm ((PST)) Poker Pole?!? What is a poker pole? Does anyone have any video of this kind of operation? I was hard enough for me to make an internal keyway in a small diameter hole so from what you guys are explaining I can't really see it working. Russell ------- Re: Using a shaper to broach. Posted by: "Jim S" mrjschmidtx~xxhotmail.com toolingjim Date: Wed Mar 5, 2014 5:21 pm ((PST)) There were a couple of articles in Precision Shooting (IIRC) a number of years ago on just this subject. They were about shaping the bolt raceways for a bolt action rifle receiver. I think a shaper would work well for cutting a M1911 mag well, as well as one on an AR15, cutting the breechblock mortise for a falling block rifle, the finger grooves on a 45 slide, etc., etc. Some of these jobs will need multiple and/or specially ground cutters, but nothing that can’t be worked out by a careful craftsman. Your .45 mag well would probably need two cutters, maybe three. The key to much of this would be proper fixturing. Just clamping the frame in a vise and hoping for the best would be a recipe for disaster. Jim (Just a guy who likes to build stuff) ------- Re: Using a shaper to broach. Posted by: "Doc" n8as1x~xxaol.com docn8as Date: Wed Mar 5, 2014 5:49 pm ((PST)) best results in interior keyway slotting is cutting UP w/ clapper locked ...this removes the slack which results in dig ins ...ALSO ...if the tool post is replaced by a straight inline boring bar w/ bit on the end, the cantilever problem is resolved....i turn up a bar w/ a shoulder on the end to replace the tool post, it is threaded in front of clapper so a bolt retains it to the clapper ..at the end is the ususal hole for a bit ... works better than the ubiquitous holder hanging down from the tool post. also ...7 inch shapers do not like a cutter wider than 1/8 inch & cuts of no more than a few thou........for larger keyways ..the best is two cutter bits ... one full width w/ the center part ground out to mark out the margins w/ a LITE cut ...this also avoids a layout since when both sides touch, you are there....after cutting to full depth w' the narrow bit, you switch to the correct size, line it up w/ your previous marks & finish ....this avoids getting LOST w/ multiple cuttings of the narrow bit & ending up w/ an oversize slot ....been there, even my HD smith mills 16 inch does not like a bit wider than 1/4 inch for slotting. best wishes doc .....probably the inline bar replacing the tool post is the "poke" ------- Re: Using a shaper to broach. Posted by: wmrmeyersx~xxsbcglobal.net oldstudentmsgt Date: Wed Mar 5, 2014 5:50 pm ((PST)) I believe I said "poke pole" not poker pole. but... Google "how to cut key ways in a shaper" and you should get quite a bit of information including, on the search page I got, 3rd item down, a pdf of a page originally at the home shop machinist bbs http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net/showthread.php?p=172642 titled either How to cut key ways in a shaper or Cutting key way with a shaper. Good info, with pics that are now missing from the HSM page. Also a shaper video of a keyway cutter (aka "poke pole") and other good info. NOTE: I'm not an expert at this, just learned of it myself a few weeks ago. Find the thread about my finally getting my own shaper after 40+ years, and you'll find Glen's posts and my responses and questions on the subject. Bill in OKC ------- Re: Using a shaper to broach. Posted by: "D Carne" chukka02x~xxtiscali.co.uk Date: Sat Mar 8, 2014 7:54 am ((PST)) Hi Bill, Just recently I wanted to make a 9/16” square hole through a piece of 1” dia bar about 3” long to make a tool holder. I drilled a 9/16” dia hole then cut out the 90 degree vees using the slotting idea. I made a slotting tool holder to hold a piece of 1/8” dia hardened and tempered silver steel ground 90 degree. The clapper box has to be clamped and the tool cuts on the return stroke and only about a thou. at a time cut, slow and laborious but quicker than a file. Regards David ------- Re: Using a shaper to broach. Posted by: "Nelson Collar" nel2larx~xxyahoo.com Date: Mon Mar 10, 2014 12:22 am ((PDT)) David, I did just about the same as you did but I drilled the hole the size of the square hole and used my single tooth broaching tool holder with a threading tool cut at 90° and the tool head turned to 45° both right and left, then flipped it and repeated it on the other corners. The shaper handled it very well and yes time consuming but faster then a file and more precision. Nelson Collar ------- Re: Using a shaper to broach. Posted by: wmrmeyersx~xxsbcglobal.net oldstudentmsgt Date: Sat Mar 8, 2014 9:16 am ((PST)) I don't suppose you took pictures or video as you worked? That would have been useful to see in action. Bill in OKC <--- much to learn, and learns best visually & hands-on ------- Re: Using a shaper to broach. Posted by: "Doc" n8as1x~xxaol.com docn8as Date: Sat Mar 8, 2014 12:37 pm ((PST)) that works & the good thing is if you use a layout, you can still see it after cuts unlike cutting forward ..but the problem w/ dig ins when cranking deeper still exists I THINK ????, (been too many years), i avoid it by cutting UP, either front or back, ususally to the front, again w/ locked clapper ..this avoids the backlash problems w/ a worn screw/nut. FWIW w/ a gooseneck tool, i can cut almost twice as wide & at least twice the doc w/ out chatter on external keyways ....abt time to design a spring tool for internal key ways. best wishes doc ------- Re: Using a shaper to broach. Posted by: "Ian Newman" ian_newx~xxyahoo.com Date: Sun Mar 9, 2014 7:32 am ((PDT)) Hi David, Probably the quickest way is to drill the hole then chip out the corners with a diamond point chisel. All the best, Ian ------- Re: Using a shaper to broach. Posted by: wmrmeyersx~xxsbcglobal.net oldstudentmsgt Date: Sun Mar 9, 2014 7:48 am ((PDT)) For YOU, maybe. Ian, you need to remember that many of us are hobbyists, and we either never got the benchwork training you did, or picked up what we do have piecemeal. I do not so much as own a diamond point chisel. None of the sets of chisels I've bought over the years contain them. Yes, I could probably make one. Plan on it, in fact, as I really am trying to fill in the stuff I lost by not continuing my machine shop learning until several decades after I took my first (and so far only) class. I may, if I can still find it, have one of the chisels for cutting channels. I've got books telling how to do it, but no cast iron stock to practice on, and don't know how mild steel reacts to the same techniques. Still gathering tools and materials so I can learn. I would consider it a great thing if you wanted to tell us how to do such things, and include pictures! ;) Oh, and the last couple of sets of chisels I've gotten were an absolute waste of time and money, IMHO. OK for punches, maybe, but useless as chisels. I have one good cold chisel, a Craftsman 3/4" I got about 40 years ago. I do have an anvil and some hammers, and several types of torch, and much of the stuff to build a brake-drum forge. And one foot of 1/2" round D2 tool steel. Lots to do, and little time to do it. I did find, going through the drawers in my shop, an 8x8x3/4" chunk of steel that I think will work to make a t-slotted top plate for my shaper table. Got the first piece of angle iron bolted on to mark for cutting to make the motor holder. And broke off a bolt in one of the holes that wasn't tapped properly. The back of the shaper casting is not flat, as it's not been machined, but is as cast with some draft to both sides of the center-line. Bill in OKC ------- Re: Using a shaper to broach. Posted by: "David Carne" chukka02x~xxtiscali.co.uk siempre02 Date: Sun Mar 9, 2014 2:33 pm ((PDT)) Hi Ian, Yes that would probably work but I do not own a diamond point chisel. Regards David ------- Re: Using a shaper to broach. Posted by: "JRWilliams" jrwillmsx~xxhal-pc.org Date: Sun Mar 9, 2014 5:13 pm ((PDT)) To cut a keyway you need a 'cape point' chisel not a 'diamond point' chisel. ------- Re: Using a shaper to broach. Posted by: "William R Meyers" wmrmeyersx~xxsbcglobal.net oldstudentmsgt Date: Sun Mar 9, 2014 5:44 pm ((PDT)) Forgot to mention that we were talking about squaring the corners of a drilled round hole to make a square hole, not a keyway. Diamond chisel would be the appropriate choice for that task. Not that I really WANT to do it that way! ;) But might come a day where I have a chisel and hammer, and nothing much else.... You can make a lot of other tools with a chisel and a hammer, and some fire, and a few other odds and ends. Bill in OKC William R. Meyers, MSgt, USAF(Ret.) ------- Re: Using a shaper to broach. Posted by: "William R Meyers" wmrmeyersx~xxsbcglobal.net oldstudentmsgt Date: Sun Mar 9, 2014 5:45 pm ((PDT)) I've just uploaded an introductory text on metal working for teachers of the manual arts, intended for the teaching of boys. The first chapter is on Chipping and the use of chisels. The author calls the one used for cutting keyways a cross-cut chisel. Page 13 of the file, page 3 of the text, describes the round-nose and diamond chisels, and their use. This book is from England, by way of KnuckleBusters, so some of the terminology may differ from US standard. Google shows "cape chisel" photos practically identical to the cross-cut chisel shown in the text. One GOOD thing the NEO conversion of Yahoo has done is increase the limits of the files area to 2GB. The file is located here: https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Metal_Shapers/files/Bench%20Work/ Feel free to add material that will help us all figure this stuff out. Bill in OKC ------- Re: Using a shaper to broach. Posted by: "Mike Fresnel" fredjenkinsx~xxearthlink.net maktospore Date: Sun Mar 9, 2014 7:33 am ((PDT)) Hey, This is an interesting setup and I have a question. Are you saying that the shaper makes a cut on the return stroke? Does it cut out and back? When you say only a thou is that only a thou on the return stroke due to it being a not clapper box in this configuration (i.e. restrained), or are you saying to setup for .001 cut each stroke? Thanks, m ------- Re: Using a shaper to broach. Posted by: "David Carne" chukka02x~xxtiscali.co.uk siempre02 Date: Sun Mar 9, 2014 2:33 pm ((PDT)) Mike, Yes cutting on the return stroke because the tool bit is inserted into the holder to cut that way. Only cutting a thou or so per stroke by hand feed of the toolholder slide, the reason being that the tool is rubbing on the forward stroke and I think if you tried taking a large cut the arrangement might well jam or break. I think as Doc says if the arrangement were to cut on the forward stroke in the conventional way the tool would dig in and probably break. This is not a production set up I got the idea from the Shaping Machine book I cannot remember the author off hand but can supply if you particularly want to use this set up. In model engineering many unconventional set ups are used to obtain a result but one must be patient and take small cuts. The ideal way to have made the square hold would be to use broaches and a press but most model engineers do not have this tooling. Regards David ------- Re: Using a shaper to broach. Posted by: "Mike Fresnel" fredjenkinsx~xxearthlink.net maktospore Date: Mon Mar 10, 2014 12:23 am ((PDT)) Hey, Thanks for info - sorry to go on and on but just to clarify for me then, you are cutting on the return stroke, the ram is running as usual and you're lifting the cutter each stroke with the crank up on the top. Further you're letting minor deflection deal with the tool position on the non-cuttine stroke, which is now the forward stroke. Is that mostly it? Thanks, m ------- Re: Using a shaper to broach. Posted by: "Glen Linscheid" partsproductionx~xxcenturylink.net Date: Mon Mar 10, 2014 12:23 am ((PDT)) One thing I noticed about shapers is that some of the yokes are designed with more cast iron on the thrust side, the SB7 is a good example. You may notice a cut out in the back side of the yoke for shaft clearance, the engineers probably assumed there would always be less stress on the return stroke. Then of course there are the Morton shapers designed to cut on the back stroke toward the shaper. A retired railway friend of mine remembers using them, and they make sense, on the reverse direction every joint tightens up, a very rigid concept! Glen ------- Re: Using a shaper to broach. Posted by: "Glen Linscheid" partsproductionx~xxcenturylink.net Date: Mon Mar 10, 2014 12:25 am ((PDT)) Another way is a filing machine, but a square broach does a great job. For smaller than 3/8" square or so I use my 5 ton hand press. I broached a 1/2" a while ago and the male square it was to fit to was too bit by a tad, the filing machine made quick work of making it fit, but I still have a reminder of my ignorance about filing machines. There is a hold down that is supposed to be adjusted to keep the part down while the file is on the upstroke, I didn't think it was necessary. My left first fingernail is about to fall off, now 2 months later. That one really hurt! The upstroke lifted the handle I was working on and my finger slipped under it, and of course it was milliseconds later that the cuss words escaped after the downstroke. :-) Another time I used my old Ammco shaper to square up a round hole, worked really well too but took forever, compared to a broach. Glen ------- Re: Using a shaper to broach. Posted by: "William R Meyers" wmrmeyersx~xxsbcglobal.net oldstudentmsgt Date: Mon Mar 10, 2014 2:13 am ((PDT)) Nelson, do you have a picture of the tool holder you're talking about? Maybe it's just the hour, but I'm having trouble visualizing what you described. Bill in OKC ------- Re: Using a shaper to broach. Posted by: "David Carne" chukka02x~xxtiscali.co.uk siempre02 Date: Mon Mar 10, 2014 4:35 pm ((PDT)) Hi Mike, Yes almost correct apart from raising the tool. It is hard without a drawing to explain the tool holder. It comprises of a 5/8" square bar with a 3/8" round bar fixed near the end of it at right angles by threading 1/4" inserting through a hole with a nut and washer on the back. The tool bit is then held in this bar with a grub screw. The square bar is held in the tool holder. As I was cutting at the bottom I was lowering the tool a thou at a stroke, but I suppose you could turn the bar through 180 degrees and cut upwards. Regards David ------- Re: Using a shaper to broach. Posted by: "Mike Fresnel" fredjenkinsx~xxearthlink.net maktospore Date: Mon Mar 10, 2014 7:13 pm ((PDT)) Hey - thanks I was inverted. Just wanted to get clear as I'm working on this hydraulic science project/frankenstein thing and hadn't considered having to cut in either direction. Thanks again m ------- Re: Using a shaper to broach. Posted by: "Doc" n8as1x~xxaol.com docn8as Date: Mon Mar 10, 2014 7:13 pm ((PDT)) FWIW ..cutting UP on the forward stroke w/ locked clapper works well for me & is also quite common. best wishes doc ------- Re: Using a shaper to broach. Posted by: "Glen Linscheid" partsproductionx~xxcenturylink.net Date: Mon Mar 10, 2014 8:32 pm ((PDT)) Locking the clapper does that too, and gives a better view of the cut. That's how I've done it anyway. Sometimes I've also had to cut at the top of the hole, upside down, because it's the most rigid way to hold the part, more of the part is in the vice. ------- Re: Using a shaper to broach. Posted by: "Nelson Collar" nel2larx~xxyahoo.com Date: Mon Mar 10, 2014 10:50 pm ((PDT)) Bill. We were talking about making a square hole. Using a key way cutter tool with a 90° cut into a point like a threading tool. Then cut one corner at a time making very light cuts. Hope that helped. Nelson Collar ------- Re: Using a shaper to broach. Posted by: "William R Meyers" wmrmeyersx~xxsbcglobal.net oldstudentmsgt Date: Tue Mar 11, 2014 6:42 am ((PDT)) Got it! I think it was about 2am when I asked that question. I didn't get to sleep until nearly midnight, and up again at 2, so was not firing on ANY cylinders! ;) Made for an interesting work day, and then I had to pick up my daughter from the airport at 9:40PM. I did get about an hour nap. My kids do wonder why I always say "Life is tough. And then you start kindergarten." That was the last time they let you take a nap, and they don't even do that anymore. ;) Bill in OKC ------- Re: Using a shaper to broach. Posted by: "Doc" n8as1x~xxaol.com docn8as Date: Tue Mar 11, 2014 8:00 pm ((PDT)) Bill, don't feel bad ...i was well rested & still had to sketch it out. doc ------- Re: Using a shaper to broach. Posted by: "D Carne" chukka02x~xxtiscali.co.uk siempre02 Date: Tue Mar 11, 2014 9:20 am ((PDT)) Hi Doc, I think the theory of pulling the tool backwards through the keyway with the clapper locked is for rigidity of an otherwise flimsy set up but as you say your way obviously achieves the same result. regards David ------- Re: Using a shaper to broach. Posted by: "Doc" n8as1x~xxaol.com docn8as Date: Tue Mar 11, 2014 7:59 pm ((PDT)) DAVID, i used to cut UP & BACK, but when doug king spent 10 days w/ me a dozen years ago, he cut UP & FORWARD...he had 45 machinists under him keeping a high speed massive paper mill running across the border... 1/2 in. keyways were the smaller ones ...so we cut some keyways in the gears we were making, UP & FORWARD & it worked well ...atlas 7B well used, but not "worn plum out".....for LARGE gears /pulleys, doug used an angle plate w/ a slot/hole for the slotting bar & clamped the work to it ...much better purchase on the part ... & that is one consideration cutting UP vs cutting down ....in the book "the wisdom of frank mclean" (village press) he cut DOWN & BACK w/ locked clapper .....said the layout was left visible this way, maybe because the cut was closer to where the part was clamped??? ...in MY hands cutting DOWN & FORWARD is the least effective, certainly w/ a well used machine (& i have seen THIS advice in a text). best wishes doc ------- Gear tooth cutting on a shaper [Metal_Shapers] Posted by: rocky_beechx~xxyahoo.com Date: Tue Apr 1, 2014 4:44 am ((PDT)) Gents, I would like to try my hand at cutting gear teeth on my 7" shaper. The gear will probably be about 3" in diameter with a 1/2" bore. I am wondering if anyone has any photos, descriptions or advice on holding the gear. I do have an Enco dividing head. Thanks in advance. Russell ------- Re: Gear tooth cutting on a shaper Posted by: "Doc" n8as1x~xxaol.com docn8as Date: Tue Apr 1, 2014 5:35 pm ((PDT)) ..FWIW ..to use a dividing head..& cut each tooth to depth. depending on pitch you may need to take several hundred cuts ..that is really the hard way .......several yrs ago i cut many 14 pitch gears on a small horizontal mill w/ ONE CUT PER TOOTH. ...w/ a single point tool & a rigid holder, i can take a .100 thou cut on my atlas ...w/a form tool like a gear cutter or a fly cutter ??????? maybe 10 thou ??? maybe 5 ???.. that's maybe 14 -28 cuts for a 14 pitch gear for one tooth ...you MAY be able to mount the idviding head on the table & have room, if not you can mount it on a slab & attach that to the tabel OR a 7 inch angle plate can be added to the end of the table (enco has free shpg & no minimum the next 3 days). i ordered one several years ago & never bolted it up ...i wud cut the keyway first & bolt the blank on a SHORT thick mandrel w/ a key. there is info around the net on using wires to rotate the blank incrementally as the ram moves (no dividing head), actually forming the teeth w/ either a fly cutter or a rack gear cutter (used for any number of teeth), but i have not done so ..i do know that one fellow, a retired doctor from the north west did make a gear this way successfully ....the method i think originated w/ the Brits model eingineering mag ...i may have copied the info years ago, but digging it out wud be a chore....if i still have it. hopefully some one has ready access to the info. best wishes doc PS ..i am pretty "muley ", but cutting a tooth individually one at a time on a shaper wud be the VERY LAST POSSIBILITY. ------- Re: Gear tooth cutting on a shaper Posted by: jhovelx~xxgmx.net joe_hovel Date: Wed Apr 2, 2014 3:37 pm ((PDT)) That is exactly what I did to repair the gear drive of a home-made electric quad for my grandson. Have a look here: http://www.woodworkforums.com/showthread.php?t=121056&p=1673648#po st1673648 Not sure if you can see the photos without being logged in, but I think so. The hardest part was grinding the gear GAP shaped cutter because the gear is helical. But I got close enough to end up with a very quiet gear train and little backlash. The quad is still in pretty wild regular use by Ned who is now 4 :) I cut each tooth to full depth by setting the table so the end of the tool adjustment was the final depth of cut and then just slowly would the tool down to the stop for each tooth gap. Because I had built an electronic divider for my rotary table, setting the position for each cut was not really tedious despite the 65 teeth. I'd certainly do it again without a second thought. Cheers, Joe ------- Logan 8" auto feed problem [Metal_Shapers] Posted by: "Michael Cameron" mncameronx~xxatt.net Date: Sun Nov 23, 2014 1:21 pm ((PST)) Hi All, I recently purchased a Logan 8" shaper that is the first shaper I have ever owned or used. I have the manual. It works well except for every once in a while the table feed stops advancing the table. If I hold the end of feed shaft and put some resistance to its turning then it behaves and starts working again. It does not matter what feed I have shaper set for and the problem is only periodic, but once it starts it will not correct itself unless I put a little resistance on the feed shaft. Any help would be appreciated Thank you Michael ------- Re: Logan 8" auto feed problem Posted by: ronlykex~xxgmail.com ron.lyke Date: Sun Nov 23, 2014 1:51 pm ((PST)) Michael -- I have a new-to-me Atlas 7b that behaved the same way. I tightened the nuts on the end of the feed screw to add a little drag to the system, and it works now. I don't know if yours is designed the same way, or if my solution is legitimate (I have a question posed on the forum), but it works for now. Ron ------- Re: Logan 8" auto feed problem Posted by: "Louis" l_schoolkatex~xxyahoo.com l_schoolkate Date: Sun Nov 23, 2014 2:46 pm ((PST)) Yes, the feed screw needs a little resistance to make it work. My shapers all work the same way. ------- Re: Logan 8" auto feed problem Posted by: "Rexarino" rexarinox~xxgmail.com rexarino Date: Sun Nov 23, 2014 2:55 pm ((PST)) Adding drag to the feed screw is the very first thing to try for a non-advancing feed. Rex Bosse Portland, Oregon ------- Re: Logan 8" auto feed problem Posted by: richardpwilson61x~xxyahoo.co.uk richardpwilson61 Date: Sun Nov 23, 2014 4:30 pm ((PST)) This is a common problem with rachet auto feeds, and isn't limited to the Logan. As you have discovered, adding a little resistance to the shaft solves the problem, so tighten the end float adjustment on the shaft slightly, to give a little 'drag' Sometimes a fibre washer was used under the adjusting nut for this purpose. I once had the wonderful idea of fitting ball thrust washers to the feed screw on my planer, to make the shaft smooth and easy to move. So easy in fact that the auto feed didn't work, for the reasons given above, and I had to take the thrust washers out again. Richard ------- Re: Logan 8" auto feed problem Posted by: rocky_beechx~xxyahoo.com Rocky_Beech Date: Sun Nov 23, 2014 2:50 pm ((PST)) Louis, How many shapers does one guy need? Haha! ------- Re: Logan 8" auto feed problem Posted by: "Louis" l_schoolkatex~xxyahoo.com l_schoolkate Date: Sun Nov 23, 2014 3:10 pm ((PST)) One, plus a backup, plus one more just in case. It's a disease, what else can I say. ------- Re: Logan 8" auto feed problem Posted by: wmrmeyersx~xxsbcglobal.net oldstudentmsgt Date: Sun Nov 23, 2014 3:14 pm ((PST)) I figure six would be about right. 1 medium (7" or so), 1 large (32" or so) and one gigantic planer, plus a spare of each. Not that I could fit anything much larger than my Lewis in my shop. ;) Bill in OKC ------- Re: Logan 8" auto feed problem Posted by: "RICK MONTAGUE" rammercx~xxwebtv.net rammercmc Date: Mon Nov 24, 2014 2:27 am ((PST)) Louis, I thought I needed eleven but you helped with that problem, now I am down to two! Rick ------- Re: Logan 8" auto feed problem Posted by: "Dennis Turk" dennis.turk2x~xxfrontier.com dturkcars Date: Mon Nov 24, 2014 2:28 am ((PST)) Hey Glen should we tell these guys how many lathes we have between the two of us. Don’t think they would worry about five or six shapers but I do have 5 of them and I know you have about a like amount. Turk ------- Re: Funky power feed [Metal_Shapers] Posted by: "P.C. Brickell" brickellx~xxeol.ca peter46toronto Date: Mon Nov 24, 2014 12:50 pm ((PST)) Hi, A common problem is that the jam nuts at the end of the crossfeed leadscrew are too loose. So, yes the system requires a certain amount of drag on the leadscrew to work. I had this problem when I got my 7B and snuggling up the nuts just a little got it back working fine. Just don't overtighten as in theory it could damage the Zamak alloy gearing for the crossfeed mechanism. Hope this helps, Peter ------- Re: Funky power feed Posted by: "lwharris" lwharrisx~xxfrtci.net rednight_55 Date: Mon Nov 24, 2014 1:04 pm ((PST)) Hello Ron. On my Logan shaper the friction of a slightly tight feed screw is what provides the tension for the ratchet pawl drive mechanism to work. If mine gets too loose it does the same thing. The Logan has a double nut on the end of the feed screw. Unlock the nuts and make a small adjustment then relock the nuts before running. If you do not lock the nuts the feed will continue tightening the adjustment nut until it damages the ratchet drive. Trust me on this one. Fortunately mine had a shear pin in the ratchet drive that went before the entire mechanism did. Hope this helps you. Lindell ------- Re: Logan 8" auto feed problem Posted by: "Glen Linscheid" partsproductionx~xxcenturylink.net Date: Tue Dec 2, 2014 2:42 am ((PST)) On the auto feed problem, I wasted many hours trying to get my Ammco to work, sold it before I fixed it, told the guy about it first. There just wasn't quite enough friction to overcome the extra force involved in getting the pawl over to the next tooth, or teeth. It worked one direction and sometimes the opposite direction. I tried tightening the jam nut at the LH end of the screw, didn't work. The solution I came up with but never applied was to drill and tap a hole leading to the shaft within the casting where the screw passes through it, and then put a small bronze shoe that would ride on the shaft, and a spring to push it down on the screw shaft, the tapped hole would accept a setscrew to adjust the pressure. I also thought of a similar solution, but the shoe would have an over center tipping point, when the shaft tries to reverse responding to the inputs of the pawl it would have to force that shoe over center first, and adjusted properly that would be just enough extra required resistance to reversal of the screw, but easily overcome when the ratchet is reversed for the opposite direction of travel. On the same notion, but more complex, an actual ratchet that opposes reversal of the screw so it could only turn the one direction until the ratchet's direction is automatically reversed when the pawl ratchet is reversed. This would be a positive solution, however engineering it would probably require enough difficulty that messing with other simpler methods would oppose the effort required. (grin) In essence the ratchet wheel would be just enough wider to accommodate both ratchet pawls, and changing the moveable pawl would, by a mechanism not yet determined, automatically change the other pawl at the same time. It's not really that difficult a problem. ------- [Really about a Boxford 8" shaper] Help needed. Boxforb 8" shaper [Metal_Shapers] Posted by: theswarfboyx~xxyahoo.com theswarfboy Date: Sun Jan 18, 2015 10:40 am ((PST)) Hi folks, The automatic cross feed on my Boxford 8" shaper is not feeding properly. I think either the ratchet gear is worn or the little spring loaded plunger is worn, or possibly both! I just wonder if some kind soul would mind posting a good close up photo of these parts, to help me identify the problem. Many thanks. ------- Re: Help needed. Boxforb 8" shaper Posted by: "Louis" l_schoolkatex~xxyahoo.com l_schoolkate Date: Sun Jan 18, 2015 10:58 am ((PST)) Both of those issues are possible culprits. However, also make sure the feed screw has enough friction to resist turning, usually set by double nuts on the other end. Without enough resistance, the feed won't work. ------- Re: Help needed. Boxforb 8" shaper Posted by: boxfordmikolx~xxyahoo.com boxfordmikol Date: Wed Jan 21, 2015 12:58 am ((PST)) Correct. It will be lack of friction on the feed assy, and nothing else. Don't ask me how i know, after spending in excess of 20 odd hours over 2-3 days re-conditioning the said assembly over and over again - going in the opposite direction; making everything smooth, flat, square and free. WRONG!! You want friction, which on the Boxford is done by modifying bushings with tapered pins. ------- Re: Help needed. Boxforb 8" shaper Posted by: theswarfboyx~xxyahoo.com theswarfboy Date: Fri Jan 30, 2015 9:14 am ((PST)) Hi Folks, So I had a quick look at the screw friction today. It does seem a little slack (and there is a little backlash in it too), so thanks for the diagnosis. What is the chance that you can also advise on the fix for this. Many thanks Regards ------- Re: Help needed. Boxforb 8" shaper Posted by: "Louis Schoolkate" l_schoolkatex~xxyahoo.com l_schoolkate Date: Fri Jan 30, 2015 4:02 pm ((PST)) Not sure about the Boxford but my shapers both have double nuts on the far side of the crossfeed screw. You tighten one up to set the friction and use the other one to lock the two nuts to that setting. It will take two wrenches and one may need to be quite thin depending on the thickness of the nuts. At times when faced with this problem, I've just cut and filed up a thin wrench myself out of sheet steel. It doesn't have to be too strong since you're only using it to lock the nuts together. The one other type I've run into on another machine is a lock nut with a set screw through the side. In that case you tighten the nut and then tighten the setscrew. There should be a piece of softer metal under the setscrew so you don't ruin the threads. Mostly in those cases if the soft piece is missing I just replace the setscrew with one made of brass. ------- Re: Help needed. Boxforb 8" shaper Posted by: "Dr Ian Messenger DC" meschirox~xxbigpond.com ianmessenger1048 Date: Sun Feb 1, 2015 8:20 am ((PST)) Greetings. A Bellville washer (a cup like spring washer) under the nuts against the casting will keep the pressure on and will compensate for temperature and other changes and keep up a more constant resistance. Also decrease the pressure on the ratchet pawl spring. It does not need very much pressure at all as it just needs to drop the pawl into the notched wheel. Too much pressure on this spring will create drag that will overcome the resistance you are trying to create in the shaft rotation. Dr Ian C Messenger DC Western Australia ------- cutting on push stroke versus pull stroke? [Metal_Shapers] Posted by: dornpetersonx~xxgmail.com dornpeterson Date: Wed Jan 21, 2015 9:51 am ((PST)) Here is a link to the part 1 (of 3) of a video showing how Stefan Gotteswinter used a shaper (and a pantograph - I'm sure we all have one of those!) to make a new set of jaws for a 3 jaw chuck. Making a set of chuck jaws Part 1/3 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sveMC39lpUE&feature=youtu.be In some of his setups he uses a special clapper that lets the tool cut on the pull stroke. He says his shaper is more rigid that way. Is that likely to be true in general? I've posted a question to him to that effect. If he gives an answer, I'll copy it here. I just wanted to find out if others had ever done this. Dorn ------- Re: cutting on push stroke versus pull stroke? Posted by: "David Carne" chukka02x~xxtiscali.co.uk siempre02 Date: Wed Jan 21, 2015 10:51 am ((PST)) Hi Dorn, Yes I used it for cutting a square hole(taking out the corners of a drilled hole) and covered it on this group. I locked the clapper box with a set screw acting as a jack. Regards David ------- Re: cutting on push stroke versus pull stroke? Posted by: "GEORGE J LOUGH JR" gloughx~xxmac.com us51478467 Date: Wed Jan 21, 2015 4:45 pm ((PST)) Squaring holes was one of the many reasons I bought a shaper and difficulties in doing so was one of my disappointments. George Lough ------- Re: cutting on push stroke versus pull stroke? Posted by: "Richard Wilson" richardpwilson61x~xxyahoo.co.uk Date: Wed Jan 21, 2015 4:45 pm ((PST)) Yes I've done it when cutting keyways, because the long projecting tool needed for this tends to chatter when pushed, but cuts smoothly when pulled. It isn't really a 'special' clapperbox, just my ordinary one with a 5/16" Allen cap screw through it into the base, to stop it lifting. For normal tooling, I don't see any reason why a fixed clapper box would be more rigid, unless that is, it's well worn and tends to move around a bit. Shapers and planers are designed to absorb tool forces on the 'push' stroke. Using them on the 'pull' stroke puts these forces in directions they were not meant to be. Maybe OK for occasional light use such as keyways, maybe not the best for heavy work. Richard ------- Re: cutting on push stroke versus pull stroke? Posted by: "David Carne" chukka02x~xxtiscali.co.uk siempre02 Date: Thu Jan 22, 2015 8:37 am ((PST)) Agree entirely with you Richard. The shaper is designed to cut on the forward stroke as the mechanism is also designed for slow forward(cutting) stroke and rapid return stroke. Like you I used a similar set up using a modification of the keyway slotting tool to take out the corners of a square hole. It worked but very slow as I was only able to take small cuts. Regards David ------- Re: cutting on push stroke versus pull stroke? Posted by: petersdwx~xxjmu.edu dornpeterson Date: Wed Jan 21, 2015 4:46 pm ((PST)) David, he didn't lock the clapper down. He made a new one the swung in the opposite direction. Here is his response to my question: "I use the shaper on pull when I have to do a lot of material removal, because I can take a heavier cut, as the forces work against the machine's column (and the chips fly towards the machine, not all around in the shop). For lighter work most of the time I set it up to work on the push stroke, as I can see better what's happening. (And sometimes there's a clearance issue, as the tool might collide with the column of the machine). And sometimes I am just too lazy to change the clapperbox ;) I have a small dividing head made by deckel with an integrated three jaw chuck, but it's missing the inside jaws, so I decided to make a set by myself." ------- Re: cutting on push stroke versus pull stroke? Posted by: in2steamx~xxwi.rr.com in2steam Date: Thu Jan 22, 2015 8:23 am ((PST)) He has a very nice looking Gack, he seemed to be concerned about the amount of cut it can take, I would not be, but maybe it needs a little work. I did notice it only has the top table without any sides so maybe it's not as rigid. The Deckel pantagraph is also cool, Deckel machines in general are cool. Draw shapers were a little more uncommon the only one I know that still exists is at the railroad round house in at Greenfield village. The neat thing here besides the new clapper is that he is running the machine in reverse as well, so the stroke is matching at the correct speed as well. I am considering putting a three phase and drive on my new find so I have another reason to pursue that course now. Best Regards Chris ------- Re: You boys seen this Ammco shaper yet? [Metal_Shapers] Posted by: "Louis Schoolkate" l_schoolkatex~xxyahoo.com Date: Fri Jan 23, 2015 7:12 am ((PST)) It's interesting to me to hear the comments about shapers not being used. I would guess it depends on what variety of projects you face. Even with both a horizontal and vertical mill, I find things that are next to impossible to do without my shaper. Maybe not every week but it's definitely every month for some odd project challenge. Add to that its ability to get a smooth finished surface that is hard to match in any other way other than with the surface grinder and I feel it earns its keep. Plus, it allows me to do roughing work on rusty steel of unknown origin without dulling those expensive end mills. ------- [Metal_Shapers] how to make the humble tee nut on a shaper, often the first job for Posted by: "Grant Erwin" grantx~xxnwnative.us blue_metal_baby Date: Tue Aug 4, 2015 8:22 am ((PDT)) My best take on how to make tee nuts on a shaper. Written by metalmagpie August 2015 Everyone says it's dead easy to make tee nuts on a shaper. That may be true, but for the person who just got his first shaper running, thinking through how to make anything can be a bit daunting. The shaper I'm working with isn't my first, but it's been long enough since I sold my previous one that I've forgotten what I once knew. So I put on my thinking cap and this is what I came up with for a procedure to make tee nuts on a shaper. If there is a better way or if someone else has written up this procedure I would certainly like to know about it. One side note -- there is a popular video on youtube on how to make tee nuts with a shaper. The shaper in that video is quite large (24"?) and is capable of taking very deep cuts. He set the machine to take full depth cuts, which many smaller machines can not. Also, he didn't go into full detail on his procedure. I learned a lot by watching his video but still feel I need to completely break down the procedure until I understand it. Let's start by defining terms: --- | 1 | 2 -- -- | 3 | --------- 1: Tongue 2: Flank 3: Base By the way the simple ASCII graphic in this post is best viewed in text mode, with constant width text (e.g. Courier). Choose a length of steel long enough to make the desired number of tee nuts plus a generous cutting allowance. I generally make up tee nuts 4 at a time and make them about an inch long so I cut a length about 4-1/2". Pick square bar that is larger in both dimensions than needed. The first thing to do is to machine the part to the base width. Install a basic cutting tool in the shaper. End rake, side rake, top rake, honed razor sharp. Put the block in the vise, supported by parallels as needed. Take a rough pass across the top just deep enough to get below the scale. Then cut down the feed and do a finishing pass. Remove the part and deburr. Put the part back in the vise with the machined side down on the parallels. Use calipers to measure the height of the part before you start. Subtract the desired base width to get the amount of stock to remove. Set the feed to the highest rate and take roughing cuts as deep as the machine and setup will tolerate until you are about 0.010" oversize, then switch to a fine feed and take a finishing cut to the final size. Remember, on tee nuts it's OK to be a few thousandths undersize, but if you leave the nuts oversize they will be difficult to use. Remove the part and deburr. Apply layout ink to an unmachined side and to the two machined sides. Lay out the tongue width down the center of the unmachined side, and the flank depth on the two machined sides. (I use an oddleg caliper for this. It doesn't need to be super accurate.) Put the part back in the vise, placing a machined side against the fixed jaw of the vise. Make sure enough sticks out above the vise so you can machine the flanks to full depth. Install a side cutting tool. This tool has to have a 90° angle ground into its tip, with the sides relieved and some back rake. Use a strong light and a precision square to set the bit exactly vertical/horizontal. Clamp everything tightly. Set the machine to a slow speed, as you will be feeding both ways by hand. Fix in your mind the dimensions you need to remove. Be sure you can see the layout lines on the top and the side toward you. Set the machine to a medium depth of cut (on my 12" shaper I would set it for 50 thou cut here) and no cross feed. Put the crank on the cross feed shaft. Start the machine and feed manually a small amount as the ram approaches the back of its stroke. Watch the layout line closely. It's OK to let the machine take two or three strokes between manual feed advances, while you think about how much to feed. Sneak up on the layout line and stop ten or fifteen thou short. Crank the part back, increase the depth of cut and repeat cutting horizontally, stopping about where you stopped before but for sure a bit short of the line. Continue down in this manner until you are close to the side layout line. Do not go all the way. Remove the part and deburr. Now turn the part around and work on the other flank. Just like before, rough out the flank, staying just short of the layout lines. When you get to the bottom, carefully advance the depth of cut until you are exactly on the layout line. Now take a horizontal finishing pass, stopping just short of the line like before. Do not adjust the depth of cut. Remove and reverse the part, then do the horizontal finishing pass at exactly the same depth of cut. Now raise the cutting tool and position it above the part and exactly on the top layout line. Start the machine and feed the machine down by hand. Again, it's OK to let the machine take two or three strokes while you reflect on how much to advance the depth. Sneak up on the horizontal cut, taking very small cuts at the end until it just matches. Remove the part, reverse it, and repeat the vertical finishing pass for that side. Remove the part and deburr. At this point all that is left is to machine the bottom of the part until the base is the correct depth. Put the part in the vise with the tongue sticking down between the jaws, with the entire base facing up. Reinstall the regular shaper cutting tool. Take roughing cuts as you approach the final dimension, then drop the cross feed to take a finishing cut to size. Remove the part and deburr. The rest doesn't involve the shaper. Lay out, drill and tap the holes. Saw the part into individual nuts. I like to put the tee nuts into a vibratory tumbler for a half hour or so with media large compared to the hole size, just to nicely soften all the edges. Stake the threads on the bottom with a small sharp chisel. If desired, clean the parts and blacken them. That's it! metalmagpie ------- Re: how to make the humble tee nut on a shaper, often the first job Posted by: flyingxs74x~xxyahoo.com.au flyingxs74 Date: Tue Aug 4, 2015 8:21 pm ((PDT)) I haven't used a shaper before and need to make a replacement ram, head, & clapper, it's all missing. But I do want to make some T-Nuts and found this a good read. It will be saved as a referance for my first project once the machine is finished. Thanks ------- more on making tee nuts with a shaper Posted by: "Grant Erwin" grantx~xxnwnative.us blue_metal_baby Date: Thu Aug 13, 2015 8:23 pm ((PDT)) Yesterday I made up another batch. This time I wrote it up with pictures. http://nwnative.us/Grant/shop%20articles/teenuts/projectWebPage.html GWE ------- Sheldon Tool Head Lock Question [Metal_Shapers] Posted by: "jim" benchtestx~xxrcn.com epitrochoids Date: Fri Sep 11, 2015 10:00 am ((PDT)) Hi all, I have a Sheldon 12" shaper that has an issue with the tool head lock. I only have a couple of hours total time using this shaper, but while trying to see if I could plane an accurate cube, I noticed that the tool head wants to creep down as I cut. Raising the tool head screw to take out the backlash and tightening the lock does not stop the creep. Here's a diagram of the tool head and lock assembly. http://www.benchtest.com/images/tool_head_diagram.jpg The lock (#35) tightens against the outside of the tool head rather than having a lock screw that goes through the tool head and bears directly on the gib as I am familiar with for dovetail ways on a milling machine. There is evidence that the lock screw has been slipping against the outside of the tool head. I would think that because the lock screw bears on the tool head body, it would only put pressure on the side of the tool head ways and gib that it bears on. This would appear to actually add clearance to the opposite side dovetail fit. This can't be great for rigidity. After checking the tool head to swivel block fit, I found that the ways were worn and I didn't have much contact on the dovetail ways. The tool head gib adjusting screw was also not seating correctly due to some burrs on the gib and ways. I am in the process of scraping for a better fit, but I don't know how much this will help the situation. I have read that I should be able to adjust the tool depth on the fly, but in its present state I can't even keep the tool bit from cutting deeper every few strokes with the tool head locked. Is this a standard arrangement for a shaper tool head lock? Is anyone else with a Sheldon having this issue? Thanks, Jim F. ------- Re: Sheldon Tool Head Lock Question Posted by: "JIM LIECHTY" jimliechtyx~xxyahoo.com jimliechty Date: Fri Sep 11, 2015 9:42 pm ((PDT)) I have a friend with a 12" Sheldon, and will ask him how his head is set up. You may need to add a wider gib, and if there is any way to add a series of gib screws, that is the way I would go. With the current type of lock, don't seem likely to be able to make adjustments on the fly. I'm not sure if tool clearance angles in the grind would have an effect on how the tools grabs as far as wanting to pull out, but can imagine that too much front rake and bottom clearance angle could help wanting to pull the tool down.....seems to me that gib screws would be the first in my book. Jim ------- Re: Sheldon Tool Head Lock Question Posted by: "jim" benchtestx~xxrcn.com epitrochoids Date: Sat Sep 12, 2015 6:31 am ((PDT)) On 09/11/2015, JIM LIECHTY jimliechtyx~xxyahoo.com wrote: > I have a friend with a 12" Sheldon, and will ask him how his head is > set up. Thanks for the response. I'd be very interested in your friend's experiences. I checked the angled ways of the dovetails and the gib fit last night. There was very little gib contact on the way facing side. On a positive note, the angled ways measure parallel on both the tool head and swivel block with the newly scraped tapered gib installed. I did the measuring between 1/2" precision shafts. I've finished scraping the flat ways and will start on the angle ways this weekend. It would be nice if getting good contact on the ways helps the situation. Since the gib was seating poorly, there is a chance that the scraping will help. There is a worn, slightly depressed line on the outside of the tool head where the lock screw contacts the tool head. Either the lock has been slipping or someone was trying to adjust the depth of cut with the lock engaged. The lock screw end is dome shaped and shiny from contact. I think I will also try putting a new surface on the screw to see if that helps before I consider making changes to the stock machine. I agree about the rake and clearance angles. So far, I've just touched up the bit that came with the shaper (cast iron finishing bit) and ground one shearing bit that I mounted without a tool holder. I don't have enough practical knowledge of shapers to know how the grind of the bit or its position - in front of or behind the clapper box fulcrum - affects the cutting forces. I still have much to learn. Thanks again. Jim ------- Re: Sheldon Tool Head Lock Question Posted by: "Grant Erwin" grantx~xxnwnative.us blue_metal_baby Date: Fri Sep 11, 2015 9:42 pm ((PDT)) I have a Sheldon shaper too. I posted the same question a couple of months ago. I was told to always wind the vertical slide up to cutting position so it couldn't drop through the backlash. This has worked for me. I am traveling so I can't go look at my vertical slide lock. I don't think it's as robust as a Bridgeport's table locks. Can you tighten the gib on the vertical slide? If yours is damaged, it was likely run without being oiled. Before you invest a lot of time into your machine I'd look at the other critical slideways. It may be (sorry!) that your machine was abused badly. Grant Erwin Kirkland, Washington ------- Re: Sheldon Tool Head Lock Question Posted by: "jim" benchtestx~xxrcn.com epitrochoids Date: Sat Sep 12, 2015 3:02 pm ((PDT)) Grant: Thanks for that info. It gives me some hope that I will be able to fix this issue. I had read about removing the backlash before I ran the shaper for the first time. The tool head ways and gib do need attention and I am working on them. As you know, there are no oil holes for the tool head ways so I can see someone forgetting to brush some way oil on the sliding surfaces. I am still questioning the design of the tool head lock. I would like to think that it operated as designed when the shaper was new. Aside from the tool head issues and an out of square swivel vise that I am in the process of fixing, the rest of the machine checks out pretty well using both the Sheldon and Schlesinger alignment checks. The ram to table parallelism is less than 0.001" out over the length of the table and there is still a bit of scraping visible on the ram dovetails. The sliding block to crank pin fit has a little play - less than 0.002" radial clearance between the bore and pin. Over all, I think the shaper has been pretty well cared for by the previous owners. In addition to the tool head and the vise issues, there is some wear on the boss that the table support rides on, but this will be a pretty simple task to scrape true to the cross rail. I have checked over the machine pretty carefully and these are the only repairs that it appears to need. Jim ------- Re: Sheldon Tool Head Lock Question Posted by: okrejcix~xxyahoo.com okrejci Date: Sun Sep 13, 2015 12:39 pm ((PDT)) You most likely have a loose gib, which is tapered and adjusted with #27 gib adjusting screw, instead of side screws. Many manufacturers use this kind of take-up with gibs. There shouldn't be much wear on the sliding surfaces at the head requiring correction because it is fed manually, but castings do warp. Cutting tool angles could add to "auto-down feed" but are not the main culprits. If the problem persists after cleaning, deburring and scraping, about the only option is to make a backlash take-up device like some lathes use on cross slides. Good Luck! ------- Re: Sheldon Tool Head Lock Question Posted by: "Clive Foster" clive_fosterx~xxtalk21.com clive603 Date: Sun Sep 13, 2015 12:39 pm ((PDT)) Dome shaped lock screw end on a flat way doesn’t sound right. A copper slug between the screw and contact surface is an effective way of increasing grip but tends to squirm if used with a flat ended screw. Maybe your machine should have a short copper slug under the screw with a depression on top to engage the dome on the screw which will keep the slug more stable than a flat slug or washer. It also helps control mushrooming of the soft slug under screw pressure. I’ve spent significant time in the past looking for such devices after they have fallen out having been tight enough in the hole not to come out during initial dismantling but needing only a baby gremlin push to eject onto the most cluttered part of the bench. Of course if I’d know they were there, appropriate precautions could have been taken. Clive ------- Re: Sheldon Tool Head Lock Question Posted by: jimliechtyx~xxyahoo.com jimliechty Date: Sun Sep 13, 2015 5:19 pm ((PDT)) As mentioned by another member, and verified by both the parts breakdown and my buddy who has the same machine, the gib in the toolhead compound is tapered. When pushed in by screw # 27, it has the same effect as other gib adjusting screws do on flat gibs. Tightening screw 27 should make it unable to crank down by hand. The tool head lock is used as an added means of securing so it does not get bumped or accidently moved, and mess up your cut. When doing the adjustment on the fly, the tool lock is not used. The gib tightening screw should tighten the toolhead enough on its own, to keep it from being sucked down. Since you have made no mention of the tapered gib, and alluded to how much play the dovetail slide has, I am wondering if the tapered gib has been lost, and replaced by a simple flat piece of metal... tightening the adjusting screw would have no tightening effect on a flat gib... that seems to fit your description of what is happening... all of the work is then put on the tool lock, and it seems to show that effect by the damage that you describe. So... the big question is... is your gib tapered? ...and can you immobilize the tool head by tightening screw 27? Jim ------- Re: Sheldon Tool Head Lock Question Posted by: "jim" benchtestx~xxrcn.com epitrochoids Date: Mon Sep 14, 2015 4:07 am ((PDT)) Re: okregic, Clive and Jim Yes, it's a tapered gib held in place by a screw with a cylindrical "disk" section that fits into a slot on the gib and also fits into a cylindrical hole in the swivel block. The screw is approx 1/4" dia and the disk is about 1/2" diameter. When I received the shaper, the gib adjusting screw (and disk portion) were proud of the hole that stabilizes the screw. My first impression was that the gib had been replaced and not scraped to fit as it was sitting too high for the disk portion to fit into its corresponding hole. (A picture would be worth a thousand words here and I will get one up soon.) When I tightened the gib screw to what I considered an excess, the disk portion barely reached into the corresponding hole. As you would suspect, the tool head was more difficult to move, but I could not lock the tool head by tightening the gib screw with a reasonable amount of force. When I was cutting my first test block, I was finally able to lock up the tool head by tightening the gib screw to what I considered to be too tight and placing a piece of sheet copper between the somewhat domed lock screw and the outside machined surface of the tool head and cranking down the lock. I was then able to plane a 4" X 6" wide piece of cast iron to a pretty nice flat finish. Now that I have been scraping the tool head and swivel block, I have found that the ways had pretty poor bearing. I have the flat ways scraped and am working on the angled ways. The gib was a bit bowed and was barely worn, but the corresponding angled way was worn a couple thousandths concave. Maybe the gib has been replaced, but it doesn't appear to be shop made. It has the number 6 stamped by the adjusting slot. I used a press to straighten the gib and have scraped both sides flat. The gib now fits much better and the disk portion of the adjusting screw fits into its hole as I figure it should. From all of your comments and what I have found with the tool head to swivel block alignment, maybe it is just a case of bad alignment between the two parts. I guess I will find out when I get it back together. I have been taking pictures and documenting my thoughts as I try to figure this out. I will post a link for those who are interested when I get finished with the scraping. I did some looking at different shaper pictures today and found that the Hendey shaper has what appears to be a similar locking method to the Sheldon, except that the Hendey's lock screw appears to be at an angle to the tool head. That's even stranger. The South Bend 7" has a lock screw that bears on the gib and is more what I am used to seeing. Always something new to learn. Thanks for the help. Jim ------- Re: Sheldon Tool Head Lock Question Posted by: "Richard Wilson" richardpwilson61x~xxyahoo.co.uk Date: Mon Sep 14, 2015 6:17 am ((PDT)) I would suggest drilling and tapping a hole in the side of the toolslide, so that a screw (with a brass plug under it) can bear on the gib for locking purposes. I use those purpose made ratchet lever screws for slide locking, no hunting around for a screwdriver or allen key. I think if the adjusting screw for the taper gib is regularly used for slide locking, it will wear the head and slot. ------- Re: Sheldon Tool Head Lock Question Posted by: "jim" benchtestx~xxrcn.com epitrochoids Date: Mon Sep 14, 2015 5:57 pm ((PDT)) If I can't get the Sheldon lock to work after the tool head has been scraped, your suggestion is what I had planned to try next. I agree with using a brass plug between the screw and gib. I'm not familiar with the "ratchet lever screws". I will have to see if I can find some info about them. I had been considering turning a ball-end type lever on the lathe. However if the ratchet lever is what I think it might be, being able to set the position of the lever without having to do trial and error cutting to get the proper length of the plug would be a plus. Thanks, Jim ------- Re: Sheldon Tool Head Lock Question Posted by: anthrhodesx~xxaol.com anthrhodes Date: Thu Sep 17, 2015 6:23 am ((PDT)) Richard, I disagree. A flat gib, adjusted with multiple screws poking into the side at right angles, is a crude mechanism. A tapered gib is a much more refined device and is designed to make intimate contact at all locations along both sides, intimate contact with the fixed dovetail and intimate contact with the slide. Poking it in the middle, even with an intervening soft button, is extremely poor treatment of a high precision component. An owner may do what he wishes with his equipment. It's my personal belief that the suggested method of making the slide lock more effective would be a very bad idea. Anthony Berkeley, Calif. ------- Re: Sheldon Tool Head Lock Question Posted by: richardpwilson61x~xxyahoo.co.uk richardpwilson61 Date: Thu Sep 17, 2015 4:43 pm ((PDT)) Anthony We must disagree then. Presumably you consider that tightening the taper gib with the end screw is the way to go. I don't. Richard ------- Re: Sheldon Tool Head Lock Question Posted by: "jim" benchtestx~xxrcn.com epitrochoids Date: Thu Sep 17, 2015 7:09 am ((PDT)) Anthony, I am curious why you believe that a screw and brass button/plug pressing on a tapered gib will cause an issue. Isn't this the way the table and saddle locks work on Bridgeport and similar mills. Jim F ------- Re: Sheldon Tool Head Lock Question Posted by: "JIM LIECHTY" jimliechtyx~xxyahoo.com jimliechty Date: Thu Sep 17, 2015 4:43 pm ((PDT)) Hi Jim....You are correct to suggest that the lock method that you describe, is not quite as crude as Anthony suggests, however... I find it hard to understand why the tapered gib does not immobilize compound slide. All of the tapered gibs that I have on my machines, will cause enough pressure to not be able to move... maybe if you really cranked on it, it may move a bit, but the design of the added lockscrew should minimally distort things to lock it up. Maybe an album of photos showing the dovetails, tapered gib and gib tightening screw would help. Jim L. ------- Re: Sheldon Tool Head Lock Question Posted by: "ED MAISEY" holmes_ca_2000x~xxyahoo.com holmes_ca_2000 Date: Fri Sep 18, 2015 10:01 am ((PDT)) Surely the tapered gib is meant to adjust for wear taking place over a period of time just like the parallel style with side adjusting se screws and locking nuts if once set you move it forward as in a locking movement you are defeating the object of the design. I had an Atlas B7 and I never had to pinch the gib when cutting although there was a 1/4-20 screw central to the gib for such an action. As an example, according to my limited experience, on a Bridgeport mill the X and Y axis have locking screws that push the gib against the dovetailed surface, I think I am right in saying that, once the gib's are set the amount of distortion is minimal, This is just my theory, Edmund ------- NOTE TO FILE. Seems to be one of those topics that drag on and on. I'm stopping it here but you can read more in the group archives. ------- ------------------------------------------------------------------ This is just one of some 80 files about machining and metalworking and useful workshop subjects that can be read at: http://www.janellestudio.com/metal/index.html ------------------------------------------------------------------