This is just one of some 80 files about machining and metalworking and useful workshop subjects that can be read at: http://www.janellestudio.com/metal/index.html ------------------------------------------------------------------ Here find many useful tips on metal shaper repair and getting them back into service. The metal shaper files are sometimes the hardest to categorize of any on this site. They frequently start as one subject and wander off onto other subjects. For example, someone asks about how to fix a metal shaper physical problem. The message thread, which you would expect to find in the file "Metal Shaper Repair General" sometimes ends up better suited for the "Metal Shaping Tips" file if the real problem is bad technique, not a faulty shaper. Sometimes that better technique also involves metal shaper bits and/or toolholders. We have a file here for that called "Metal Shaper Bits and Toolholders". But I cannot put the thread in all files possible. The thread goes into the metal shaper file that is most appropriate (my choice) or causes me the least editing/typing and/or headache at the end of a long day. Just not enough room on my site for posting threads in multiple files. As mentioned on my home page, you will get the most information out of these files if you check through all of most likely ones for the problem at hand, if the file you try first does not have a full answer. It sure isn't a perfect system, but after a while you will gain the knack of scrolling/skimming files at high speed. If you have copied the files to your site, you can use your text editor or word processor to open all the shaper files at once, and do word searches across all open files at once. Yours can't do that? Get a free copy of NoteTab Light through the home page link. A very good tool. [I have no relationship with them except as a very pleased user of that free program.] If you got to this file directly from my HOME PAGE, return there by using your browser's back button. BUT if you came to this file as the result of a web search engine, see many additional files on my home page Machining and Metalworking at Home http://www.janellestudio.com/metal/index.html SAFETY WARNING BEWARE: DO NOT ASSUME that any subject matter or procedure or process is safe or correct or appropriate just because it was mentioned in a news/user group or was included in these files or on this site or on any other web site or was published in a magazine or book or video. Working with metals and machinery and chemicals and electrical equipment is inherently dangerous. Wear safety devices and clothing as appropriate. Remove watches, rings, and jewellery -- and secure or remove loose clothing -- before operating any machine. Read, understand and follow the latest operating procedures and safety instructions provided by the manufacturer of your machine or tool or product. If you do not have those most recent official instructions, acquire a copy through the manufacturer before operating or using their product. Where the company no longer exists, use the appropriate news or user group to locate an official copy. Be careful -- original instructions may not meet current safety standards. Updated safety information and operating instructions may also be available through a local club, a local professional in the trade, a local business, or an appropriate government agency. In every case, use your common sense before beginning or taking the next step; and do not proceed if you have any questions or doubts about any procedure, or the safety of any procedure. Follow all laws and codes, and employ certified or licenced professionals as required by those laws or codes. Hazardous tasks beyond your competence or expertise should also be contracted to professionals. Let's be really careful out there. (c) Copyright 2003 - 2016 Machining and Metalworking at Home The form of the collected work in this text file (including editing, additions, and notes) is copyrighted and this file is not to be reproduced by any means, including electronic, without written permission except for strictly personal use. ========================================================================== Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 12:54:49 -0600 (CST) From: Tom Benedict Subject: Re: Shaper fumbles [posting in taigtools group] On Fri, 22 Mar 2002, Nicholas Carter and Felice Luftschein wrote: > Shapers are cool. Man, I can't wait to get mine going! > The Shaper works really well with the Taig equipment, as you can use > it to do all the brute shaping before you mill to size on the Taig. > Turns hot rolled angle iron into angle plates like that! If you can, > get some cast iron bar stock, it machines so beautifully on a shaper, > that the finish almost looks ground. I've got an odd problem ahead of me for restoring mine. Lemme run the solution by you to get your feedback. I *think* I can pull this off, but no guarantees. The problem is one of the inaccuracies I've come across is the dovetails. They're supposed to be 60 degree dovetails, but I did some spot checks and the dovetails for the vertical slides don't meet cleanly. I talked to someone else who has a Lewis shaper, and he said my best bet (along with scraping the ways flat) is to make a 60 degree master angle and use that to scrape the dovetails. The problem is I'd like to use the shaper to make the master 60 degree angle for the very reason that Nick mentioned: I'd need to machine the angle out of cast iron, then scrape the two sides flat. I'd prefer to use the shaper because it's a great way to prep a surface for scraping. Here's why I think I can pull it off: The vertical slide on my shaper needs truckloads of work. The horizontal slide is more or less ok. It's not a scraped surface, but it's pretty accurate. Since the two cuts I'd need to take would be horizontal and at an angle, I could lock the vertical slide and use the other two. But yeah, I'd need to find some cast iron bar stock (at least 1"x1"), grind some shaper tools (which I've never done), bolt on a jackshaft and motor (I need a new motor), and pray. Am I nuts? Tom ------- Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 14:23:06 -0500 From: Larry Richter Subject: Re: Shaper fumbles I'm not getting the problem, unless you mean the sides of the big vertical dovetail plate on the front of the shaper main body aren't parallel. There is a picture of the Lewis shaper on a british site along with other stuff from the Lewis catalog of 1944. If that plate comes off, it would be real tempting to take it somewhere and have it squared up. If I understand the problem. Which I don't. http://www.lathes.co.uk/lewis/ ------- Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 15:04:33 -0600 (CST) From: Tom Benedict Subject: Re: Shaper fumbles Got that UK stuff printed and in my shop notebook. (Fantastic site, BTW.) A while back a new set of Lewis castings came up on eBay, along with blueprints. The seller kindly sold me a photocopy of the blueprints, which I'm using to help me rebuild this thing. The quality's not ideal, or I'd probably send the webmaster at www.lathes.co.uk a copy for the web site. And yes, you hit the problem on the head: The sides of the dovetail aren't parallel. The vertical slide is too lose at the top, and it binds at the bottom. So yeah, you understand the problem perfectly. Unfortunately the plate doesn't come off. One of the first steps I took during this restoration was to completely disassemble the shaper and take it to an engine shop to get it tanked. It was the first time I'd ever run across the term, so I hope I don't bore people by describing it: "Tanking" involves immersing parts into a vat of hot sodium hydroxide until there's nothing left but metal. This works great with steel and iron (which sodium hydroxide (lye) won't touch). Not so good with aluminum, which gets eaten by lye. The upshot is that once you've had stuff tanked, all you're left with is the original casting. It cost me about $50US. Once all the paint and filler was off, I got to take a look at how the thing was put together. The column consists of three castings, which are welded together. The dovetail slide is one of the castings. Unfortunately it was very thoroughly welded on, and not simply bolted and painted over. That being said, though, I got some input on how to measure (and correct) the dovetails from someone else who has a Lewis shaper. It's important to note that they're not out by much. Maybe a few thout at most (meaning one or two, not ten or fifteen). So this will be tedious, but it should work: Lay the entire column face-down on a surface plate, and place two dowel rods along the length of the dovetail on either side. Seen from one end of the dovetail, it looks like: X( )/___________\( )X ------------------- Legend: ( ) = dowel rod /__________\ = dovetail --------- = surface plate Measure from X to X with calipers. If the two sides of the dovetail are not parallel (and I already know they're not on my shaper), it should be measurable. Ideally you'd mill them parallel. But I don't have a mill big enough and can't afford to have it done. So the trick is to file them parallel, use the 60 degree master angle to make sure they have the right angle (they don't exactly), and scrape them flat. At that point you've got a good dovetail. Great in theory, but my guess is it's going to be weeks if not months of work to bring it into alignment by hand, and result in a good dovetail. What complicates all this, of course, is that in addition to making the dovetail the right shape, flat, and parallel, I've also got to get it into alignment with the ram slide. I haven't 100% figured that one out yet. It's a good project. I'm learning a lot about machine fabrication and repair, and a bunch about shapers. (Some day I just hope I get to use mine!) Tom ------- Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 16:46:33 -0500 From: Larry Richter Subject: Re: Shaper fumbles Jackleg baling wire fix thought number A-17: it seems like you could be free to cut and mount a replacement dovetail plate to the face of the existing plate, if that face is fairly flat now. Might be able to make the damn thing swivel -- no, that would booger up the ratchet advance. Well. Sorry. Jackleg baling wire fix thought number B-37: If one side of the dovetail just happens to be vertical and square, maybe you could replace the gib with one those diamond coated steel plates and make the vertical carriage duplicate the good side for you. ------- Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 05:41:21 -0000 From: "Art Volz" Subject: Re: Help needed wit 7" South Bend Shaper project. --- In Metal_Shapersx~xxy..., "John Guenther" wrote: >> We are working on restoring 2 7" SB shapers. One is in pretty good condition, the other needs more help. It appears that one of them has been run with out lubrication on the ram ways, there is galling on the under side of the ram on the left side and on the slide area of the column for the ram. << John-- First download and read PDF document "/metal/sbarmy7shaper.pdf" at "Files" here. (If you have a ZIP drive it is best to store all of your SB files on a ZIP 100/250 disk as you will then have repeatable & instant access after the first download.) Go to page 28 of this manual to see how to adjust the valves that are supposed to regulate the lube oil to the ram slideways, the bull gear, and the rocker arm shoe (the crank slider). Insure that lube oil freely flows to all 4 areas; if not, you'll have to clean out the blocked tube(s). Resist removing any metal on the slideways to "fix" the problem, by either grinding and/or scraping, unless you are an expert in doing both. I've "fixed", and learned not to try to so "fix" ever again, many things mechanical over the years by "fixing" them for good: permanently broken and worse than at first. Instead, you may wish to use one of the industry standard slideway fixing processes that utilize applications of low-friction-compound filled epoxy resins. One of the processes uses a proprietary compound called "Moglice"; the other uses a similar proprietary compound called "Black 2000". Neither are cheap, but they are what industry commonly uses to repair damaged and/or worn slideways. For information concerning each process, download both the Moglice "Machine Tool Way Rebuilding" handbook (long download--good for a ZIP disk--6.6Mb) and two of the Philly Cast Technical Bulletins on "Black 2000": http://www.moglice.com/handbookpdfs/handbook.pdf (6.6Mb) http://www.phillycast.com/products/b835c.pdf (65K) http://www.phillycast.com/products/ins-2000.pdf (22K) >> This shaper also has what appears to be a shop made steel bull gear.<< Ah, phenolic plastic laminated bull gear problems, perhaps??? ...and that most adorable toothless grin of the Phenolic Tooth Fairy!!! (Where do you think she looked for her new charges...on the table top 'neath the sleeping tool head?) >> problems I see with this is that the bull gear hub was removed from the bull gear shank and reinstalled 90 degrees from where it should be. I know this was done because there is a new position for the pin the keys the bull gear hub to the bull gear shank. What problems will this cause? It would seem that the timing for the table advance would be incorrect which could cause table advance to occur during the cut instead of at the end of the return stroke. There is chatter on the power stroke, even when the unit is not cutting. I have not got around to checking the bushings on all the shafts yet but there is definitely a problem. << Some thoughts: Make sure that the rocker arm and the link that connects it to the ram are installed in the correct direction so that it pushes when it it's supposed to push and pulls when it's supposed to push. Are you getting any lube to the bull gear...and to the shoe that rides in the slot on the rocker arm? No lube, or not enuf, is Lady Chattering's True Lover: Sir Galling d'Friction. As to installation of the bull gear vis-a-vis the bull gear shank: is it installed incorrectly, as you suggested, or not? You CAN'T be doing table cross feeding during the ram power stroke. Manually lube everthing, and then check, under power, whether the slow stroke is on ramming and the quick stroke is on return. If not...and use maximum stroke length to be better able to tell the time difference--reverse the direction of rotation of your motor. Prior to doing any operation under motor power...and especially after making any and all adjustments...run the shaper thru several ram/retracts by hand...just to insure that you're not going to hit anything. This is a standard, ALWAYS, pre-operation procedure and it immediately follows the lubing, manually, of everything that needs lube. Quick check the shafts' running bushings by seeing if you can manually get them to "rock"; a more precise measured check later of the diameters to insure that they are regular and uniform and are within the proper tolerances for running fits. (See "Machinery Handbook" for diameters and their running fit tolerances.) Use a correct modern "waylube" oil of the proper viscosity. Check to see what viscosity lube oil (page 28 of SB TM that you have downloaded onto ZIP disk already) is required. Hint: it's Saybolt Seconds or SSU 200 x~xx 100 F; look at the cross-refence chart in one of the two lubrication files that I uploaded to "Files" to determine it's current SAE viscosity grade and its current ISO VG. Buy a gallon of the Mobile waylube oil that matches this viscosity or use a NON-DETERGERENT SAE single weight viscosity oil until you can obtain the proper grade of waylube. (Download those 2 lube files to your ZIP disk too...for future and continuing reference. And, Thank Scott for first posting them to his "Lathe-List" group from which I purloined them.) > John Guenther 'Ye Olde Pen Maker' Sterling, Virginia Art (Houston) ------- Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 08:35:27 -0500 From: "John Guenther" Subject: RE: Re: Help needed wit 7" South Bend Shaper project. Art: Thanks for your reply, that's lots of useful information. I have the Army manual along with everything else I can get my hands for the SB shaper. I have already decided to use Moglice or one of the others for the slide way repairs, taking material off just did not make sense to me. Seemed like it would disturb too many other things that would just increase the problems of getting it right. The more I study the bull gear shank and the flange the more it looks like the shank has been replaced and the new one is not correct. I am going over to the shop where the shapers are this weekend to look at and photograph the one for the other shaper. My current theory is that the thing was trying to advance on the cutting stroke, the table was normally run from left to right which would put rotational force on the ram in a counter clockwise direction causing excessive pressure on the left slide way which is where the major damage is. This is all looking at the shaper from the front. John Guenther 'Ye Olde Pen Maker' Sterling, Virginia ------- Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 20:36:19 -0000 From: "Art Volz" Subject: Re: Help needed wit 7" South Bend Shaper project. John--That is an interesting theory of possible cause of ram-way damage. You might wish to confirm by observation, if things twist and turn as you suppose, by manually turning the shaper thru its cycle--maybe clock indicators installed at various positions--table and ram at least--to see what is twisting and turning...and when. A shaper is a dynamic-mechanical-train of events from the low end starting at the motor all the way thru the train until sizzling blue chips (I NEVER run my antique Lewis-10 at warp speed--I run mine more like an 80 year old granny does when motoring her 1952 DeSoto to St. Mary's on a spring Sunday morn just down the block apiece) fly helter- skelter from the finely honed tip of the bit. ANY noise and ANY vibration and ANY perceived deflection movement is BAD. The mechanical train is hurtin' and is about to hurt a lot more...maybe even catastrophically (sp?). When noise, vibration, or wrong moventments are observed it is time to STOP THAT DeSOTO! Check also to see what is heating up: heat = un-lubed friction between machine elements. To find the mechanical problem that IS the cause means to start first at the low end of the train, at the motor itself, and un- hitch everything above it. Slowly reconstitute the train until sources of vibration/noise/movement/heat are found and CORRECTED. Then proceed--link by link--up the train until all faults are totally corrected, or at least are acceptable without potential of causing further damage. In older age you've gotta learn to live...and continue to operate...in an ever advancing state of wear, by, often in my case, reducing speed to DeSoto tolerable levels of comfort. (Good "lubing" also assists me considerably. :-)) By this process of low to high mechanical train analysis, you should be able to locate and correct any mechanical abnormalities and aberrations. Keep us apprised of your progress, John. ....And, caution is a foremost concern...at least if it were I...for I have often jumped the gun, when I shouldn't have, and forced a machine, or two, to endure further dynamic deterioration as I tried to "fix" it by pushing too hard and too fast for a solution RIGHT NOW. As I slow down..."wisdom" seems to speed up...and while solutions take a helluva longer time to arrive at and effect, at least they become a workable effect and not just another cause of accelerated deterioration. Enjoy the process for what it is: the journey is the true joy--the destination is just the end. ------- Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 15:53:50 -0500 From: "j.guenther" Subject: RE: Re: Help needed wit 7" South Bend Shaper project. Art: It will be a while before I get the thing back together enough to tell what the real cause of the damage is. I do know that the bull gear shank has been "messed with" by some previous owner since the "eccentric" that advances the table was not fastened on with a taper pin but two roll pins, one from each side and the hole for these pins does NOT go completely through the shank. As I said, the bull gear has been replaced with a steel one which I believe was shop made at some time. The bull gear hub has been off the bull gear shank and has an additional place for the locking pin drilled in it. The shaper is completely disassembled at this time for cleaning and painting as part of the restoration process. I hope to have it running by the end of the year. This is basically a nice shaper, almost complete and I don't think used very much, just abused at some point. I plan on all new bushings, and a total cleanup and repaint. I am also looking for a source for Phenolic to make a new bull gear unless I can find an original. I would really like to find an original bull gear, hub and shank to replace the parts I currently have. If you run up on these parts I would certainly be interested. John Guenther 'Ye Olde Pen Maker' Sterling, Virginia ------- Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 06:47:01 -0000 From: "Art Volz" Subject: Re: Help needed wit 7" South Bend Shaper project.: Phenolite John--See Messages 1501, 1509, and 1516 in re "Phenolite C501" which is probably a correct phenolic laminate material from which to make a new bull gear: http://www.nvf.com/phenolite/sheets_fabric.htm If you cannot find a local source, or are unable to purchase directly from NVF, let me know and I'll see if I can get you some from the Houston source that Joe W. referenced previously. Art (Houston) ------- Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 04:41:43 -0000 From: "Brian Sherwood " Subject: carriage way wear The top carriage way, the flat one, on my south bend shaper looks to have a little wear--looks like the whole carriage is dropping a few thou under the cutting stroke. I'm a-buzzin' with questions. Is this normal? Is it caused by a need to tighten the gib on the carriage bottom dovetail way? Do i need to take a few thousandths off the top rear surface of the table where the top gib bolts to, to close the gap? Or should I face a few thou off just the top half of the rear top gib? If the major wear is in the top gib itself can i just turn it around? Would it work as well to put a shim between the table body and the gib, and then an adjustable gib-strip between the gib and the flat way? I can't feel any shake...But I do see some play in the lower dovetail gib--is it actually that the elevating screw is taking out the play in the lower dovetail way in one direction, and the cutting stroke is rocking it the other way and there's nothing wrong with the top gib?. All the original frosting marks are visible inside the rocker arm so I figure it's a low-mileage shaper... My logic tells me to first adjust the lower dovetail gib, then scrape in the upper gib if needed and don't screw with the table itself. Am i on the right track? thanks in advance. lurch I don't want to screw it up by acting before I ask. ------- Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 07:34:06 -0000 From: "Art Volz " Subject: Re: carriage way wear Brian--Don't remove any metal from anything until you can truely ascertain that you have a problem and are able to actually locate it ...and then still don't remove any metal. First, do something for me...and others that may be following this dialogue...and use the correct Item Numbers and Parts Descriptions names as found mainly on page 35 of TM 9-3418-200-14 & P, February 1982. For example, I think I know what you mean by the word "carriage", but am unable to find it listed in the Parts List on page 35 of the TM. While you're re-locating your copy of the TM, here's some things to think about...and then do: --loosen the cross rail gib setscrew, elevate the cross rail with the table to the desired height, and then tighten this setscrew, locking the crossrail and table in elevation. This cross rail must be locked, like the knee on a manual horizontal/vertical mill, while shaping. Most perceived and actual table movement, while shaping, is caused by the cross rail not being locked. --the horizontal table gibs should be tightened so that the cross feed screw can just traverse the table while lubed with waylube. Tighten the table gib setscrews snug and then back off about 1/4 turn and tighten their setscrew nuts. You may need to experiment here to get it "just rite". --Also adjust the ram's gibs to minimize delection, both horizontally and vertically. If the ram slides too loosely it will affect the "clock" measurements below. --Now adjust the vertical table support shank so that, when a "clock" is attached to the ram, it measures the same at both the front and the rear of the table. This table support must be used to preclude the table from "cantilevering" down at the end of the cut. You may have to fiddle with the elevation mechanism too to get everything square. Once square insure everything is tite. --Now, see if you can still detect movement while shaping. You'll get more movement as you increase the metal removal rate: feed, speed and DOC, but, if you have done the above, it should be within limits. Also, don't use a motor with more HP than the SB was designed to handle...if you do you'll get more deflection under full load/MRR. --If are still getting movement, how much are you getting? What is the amount, by measurement, of the cut from front to rear? --There is a US Army specs document in "files" that lists required accuracies for shapers. I forget the file name (and I posted it), but it should be recognizable: if, after you look, you can't find it, I will. It contains best case accuracies--for new machines: don't expect better on a used machine. --If you still suspect horizontal wear on either the top horizontal slideway on the table or its associated top guide gib then measure the parts. Wear is measureable. How much...and where? Art (Houston) ------- Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 15:23:17 -0000 From: "Mathiscoosbay " Subject: 1905-6(?) Cincinatti 20 QUESTION The newest date on the "Patents" brass plate on the R side of this old girl is Dec 12, 1905, states "other applications pending", Cincinatti Shaper Co.... I'm posting a couple of new pics in the Folder "Cinci 20". There's a stud with adjusting nuts that require a spanner wrench to move them on the back L side of the main body of the machine, holds a piece of angled metal that looks like it might be a gib. Could anyone tell me for sure what this adjustment "thingie" is for? It looks like there is not any other way to even attach gibs that I can see on this machine, no screws along the sides of the ram way or anywhere else. How do I know when the gibs are set right anyway, this ram is so heavy I think it will be difficult to tell if there's any play no matter what (well...that's assuming I ever get it broke loose again in the first place)? How would you guys go about cleaning the rust off the ways before attempting to slide the ram? Thought about light scraping but afraid I might do more harm than good. Appreciate any help or suggestions you might have. Thanks! Tim ------- Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 18:55:25 -0000 From: "Art Volz " Subject: Re: 1905-6(?) Cincinatti 20 QUESTION Tim--I can't lay my hand on my Cinci manuals at the present, but mine are for much later shapers. Apparently your Cinci has tapered gibs which are adjusted linerally. Don't scrape anything until you can carefully break thru the rigor mortis that's keeping your ram in its death grip. You may wish to start by liberally applying rust penetrants and applying careful lite loving taps, here and there, with a horse hide mallet. Sometimes it takes a lot of loving to awaken a sleeping princess...sometime they just sleep....and sleep...and...never wakeup. Shopswarf Tom may have the manual that you need. Using keyword "shopswarf" search for one of his messages and then click onto his email moniker...and then whiz away to Kiwi Isle. Art (Houston) ------- Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 18:55:29 -0000 From: "Brian Sherwood " Subject: Thank you Art V! [was:Re: carriage way wear] Ran home at lunch with manual in hand. Set all the gib setscrews just snug to where the drag became just perceptible. Took half a turn to a full turn out of all the table gib setscrews [item 42 p.35]. Took a turn and a half out of all the ram gib setscrews [items 85 p.32] --no wonder the thing was spewing oil. Took about 1/8 turn up on all the cross rail gib setscrews [item 12 p.35]. Tossed a bolt with a lead shot under the tip in for a temporary table support shank binding lever. Re-indexed the crossrail locking lever [item 16 et al p.35]--dunno if there's supposed to be two cross-holes 90 degrees apart [in item 17, p.35] or if the second cross-hole is an 'aftermarket accessory' but in either case it was set wrong--the knob hit the casting before it locked fully. No slop, no play, seems to run quieter and smoother. I'll go over it in depth and detail tonight. Thank you again, Art! ------- Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 19:21:15 -0000 From: "Art Volz " Subject: Thank you Art V! [was:Re: carriage way wear] Brian--Tremendous! Some times one gets lucky...especially with a hot, right off the press, copy of a Green Machine TM in hand. Now you need to fab a proper table support assembly. Consider making the table support bracket (44) of bronze softer than the cast iron that it slides on so that it wears and NOT the cast iron. The new ENCO catalogue has some bronze rounds. You might even want to consider a piece of their sintered bronze impregnated with lube oil. Additionally, do not neglect the brass shoe (46) as this is what grips/locks the table support shank (45). When you make the binding lever (47) ensure that the threaded portion cannot contact the shank unless the brass shoe is in place. This insures that the shank doesn't get all nicked up and unuseable with use. And, again...CONGRATS! Art (Houston) ------- Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 20:06:41 -0000 From: "Art Volz " Subject: Performance Characteristics & Alignment Tolerances (Was: Carriage, etc.) --- In Metal_Shapersx~xxyahoogroups.com, n8as1x~xxa... wrote: > ART ....beautiful , archival post on shaper accuracy.....printing it out > for my 3 ring ,,,,have occasional used my little atlas over last 20 > years w/out consideration to many of these points.....may be the reason > my skill w/ a file keeps increasing! Doc--You're right. The document that Doc is referring to is the "file" in "Files" entitled "/metal/MilStdHydraulicShaper.pdf" which is the last Military Standard published by the Army on shapers and the latest shaper at that time was the hydraulic one: i.e. the Rockford like Ray E. has and is preparing to re-paint Chinese New Year Firecracker Red...and before the February 1st Chinese New Year. On page 11 of the Mil Std are two tables. Table II "Performance Characteristics states requirements for feed, speed, and depth of cut for these large shapers (not relevant to most of us) and a column entitled "Allowable Thickness Variation, Inches" which is relevant: rough cuts = 0.011 inches -- finish cuts = 0.002. Don't expect better with an old machine unless it has been totally rebuilt to OEM "Standard"...and even then.... Table III "Alignment Tolerances" is also relevant: tolerances of 0.001 inches in 12 inches except for rise and fall of table during horizontal travel of 0.0005 inches in 12 inches. These should be your goals for a "tite machine" in like new repair, but goals are not always achievable. Do not consider that your shaper should be able to achieve cutting accuracies of a modern CNC milling machines from Haas: it CAN'T. Just for a starter, I know of no shapers that ever had the roller bearing slideways that these modern highly accurate CNC mills have. If you can adjust your metal-on-metal friction slideways to get you "near" the tolerances and accuracies as in Table II and Table III, feel lucky, pat yourself on the back, kick open the fridge, and grab a cold long neck of Lone Star...the National Beer of Texas. (None of that Drewry's sewer gas here.) Now, what the heck is Table I--I need to go back and re-read the Mil Std? Art (Houston) ------- Date: Mon, 03 Feb 2003 01:58:47 -0000 From: "Chris " Subject: Success!! Hendey now working After too many welders refused to touch the broken feed rocker arm casting, I got a 3x4x5 block of 6061 and removed anything that didn't look like the original part. Five hours of playtime on Bridgeport and 13" South Bend resulted in a replacement that fit like a glove and works like a charm. Time will tell how well it will hold up but I'm keeping the original as a Kentucky blueprint. A little more tweaking and cleaning and I'll have this machine ready to make real parts. ------- Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 06:20:23 -0000 From: "markhubler" Subject: Vise repair question My shaper vise was used as drill press vise, by a former owner. There are a number of holes on the outside of the vise and on the inside. I am thinking about cleaning out the holes and filling them with JB weld. Is there a better way? The vise is not original and is no beauty queen, so I am not concerned about impacting the value of the shaper. ------- Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 11:23:31 +0000 From: mariol.vitalex~xxatt.net Subject: Re: Vise repair question Mark, If you have access to welding equipment (Oxy-acetylee,mig,stick) you could fill them with weld and re-machine flush. Keep in mind, though, the potential for warpage or distortion. Minimize the heat input (do one hole at a time and let it cool?) Good luck, Mario ------- Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 08:32:43 -0500 From: "J R Williams" Subject: Re: Vise repair question Mario: Welding on an old cast iron vise is asking for trouble unless the entire unit is brought up to a high temperature and there may be very hard spots in the weld even with slow cooling. I have used a Devon product for such "cover ups" Joe Williams ------- Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 21:05:36 EDT From: n8as1x~xxaol.com Subject: Re: Vise repair question > Keep in mind, though,the potential for warpage or distortion. > Minimize the heat input (do one hole at a time and let it cool?) 75 amp on buzzbox ,3-4 sec. & dont make second pass till u can touch rhe first one & u can probably do the job cold ......u better be REAL good if using a torch even w/ pre heat......id be tempted to drill & tap for screw plug ,...leave a little pround & pound down , or just drive a plug in best wishes docn8as ------- Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 02:58:15 +0000 From: mariol.vitalex~xxatt.net Subject: Re: Vise repair question Oh my God, Joe!!! You're right! I don't know what I was thinking of, but I WASN"T thinking cast iron!?!?!?(I guess I was too busy thinking about going to NAMES!) I will say, however, that I have had very good luck SMAW (stick welding) cast iron if I pre-heat it...sit it on an electric hot plate ($2 at the local thrift store)until it gets to temp (too damned hot to touch!) weld, then leave it on the hot plate at temperature for a couple of hours, then shut off the hot plate, put a cardboard box over it and look at it in the morning. I saw docn8as' post and agree, if you stick weld one pass at a time and let cool, not putting a lot of weld metal down with each pass, you should be o.k. Thanks for waking me up Joe. mario ------- Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 23:55:56 -0000 From: "jaguarbud1" Subject: Need South Bend Oil Pump Help Need some help guys. I drained and cleaned the sump of my 7" SB and did some work that I'll post and boast about later. My problem is upon refilling the sump, my pump is not pumping. How do I get it to start pumping? Is there a way to prime it? Thanks in advance, Al ------- Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 11:57:38 -0000 From: "jaguarbud1" Subject: SB Pump, Bushings and Block I'm pleased to report that my oil pump is pumping again. It seems some time may have been needed for the oil to seep into the intake, along with running for about 10 minutes for the oil to show itself in all critical places. When the sump was empty, I noticed a number of chips that must have made their way in through the front opening in the casting (just below the tool slide). Has anyone else found it necessary to block this opening on their South Bends 7" while in operation? A repetitive thumping at the higher speeds prompted a partial tear down of my machine . I replaced both rocker arm shaft bushings, the rocker arm to ram block bushing, and the link to ram block bushing. Critical oil holes are drilled into the top of the rocker arm and ram block for lubrication of the shafts. This seems to require periodic manual lubrication. The real wear in my case seems to be at the sides of the rocker arm shoe, where there is some lost motion and the thumping may have been coming from. The oil tube for the shoe was misaligned away from the center travel of the ram. Three oil holes in the shoe allow oil to reach the inner sides of the rocker arm and shoe, and the shoe lock bushing, provided oil from the pump drops into the shoe tray. I'll need to make a new shoe for my machine. Anyone know if the shoe is bronze? Any problem with using fortal for the shoe? Anyone know what the clearance should be between the shoe and the rocker arm? I would like to get the correct spec for this before I begin. Thanks for your help, Al ------- Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 18:02:07 -0000 From: "Art Volz" Subject: Specs??? Re: SB Pump, Bushings and Block --- In Metal_Shapersx~xxyahoogroups.com, "jaguarbud1" wrote: > Anyone know what the clearance should be > between the shoe and the rocker arm? I would like to get the > correct spec for this before I begin. Al-- LeBlond now has all of the extant documents for the SB-7. (Do a Google search.) You'll have to check with their Service Department for any dimensional tolerance specs that they might have on this old machine. The SB-7 is not a very sophisticated machine. Probably the type tolerances between fitted parts as obtainable from one of the machinery handbooks for a "running" fit would suffice. The "Fortal" that you refer to--is it a graphite & plastic impregnated linen? It might have a tendency to pick up abrasive particles if it is rubbing all the time. Check your shoe with a magnet and scrape it a bit to see what color the base metal is. It might be iron. (Ask Rose at LeBlond.) Art (Houston) ------- Date: Thu, 29 May 2003 16:54:43 -0000 From: "Art Volz" Subject: Re: Atlas Rachet Case: WOW! In Metal_Shapersx~xxyahoogroups.com, "Greg B" wrote: > Just thought I show everyone the rachet case I made to replace my old > broken one. Waddaya think? They're in "Greg's Rachet Case" > at Metal Shapers Pix Thanks, Greg B. Greg-- An exceptionally nice piece of work! Because the Atlas OEM housing was a diecast zinc alloy...and because of operator negligence and/or abuse in the distant past...many of these housings are damaged and are non-repairable. Now for a few questions: 1. Did you work from a parts drawing obtained from Clausing or just from measurements from your old housing? 2. What type of Aluminum did you use? 3. What type of CNC milling machine did you use? 4. Did you write the program in exportable G&M code? 5. How much are you going to sell these "hotcakes" for on eBay? :-) Art (Houston) ------- Date: Thu, 29 May 2003 18:23:52 -0700 (PDT) From: Greg Benedict Subject: Re: Re: Atlas Rachet Case: WOW! Art, in answer to your querries, 1. I took the damaged case that I had and made a sketch from it. Then I had my wife redraw it in CAD. The Missus is pretty cool. 2. I used 1.00" 6061-T6 plate. This seem to always be .025-.030 oversized so additional machining steps were not needed. And we have plenty of drop-offs in the scrap bin at work. 3. Run on a Fadal VMC 4020 after work. I'm lucky that the owner lets me do this sort of thing as long as I'm on my own time. 4. I've been machining for about fifteen years now, both CNC and conventional, but I'm just starting to learn to use the CADCAM packages at work. So truthfully, I couldn't tell you if the code was exportable or not. I stayed late at work for about a week using MasterCam Mill V8.1 to generate the program. I've just started learning the software, and without any help it takes awhile to figure out how it works. I might go back and figure out more efficient toolpaths but that remains to be seen. I've learned alot more about how to use MC since then. The rachet case was the first program I had written with MC and I now know more neat tricks to do with it to make more efficient toolpaths and cut cycle times. 5. As for trying to produce a few of these things to sell, I guess I'll have to think about it. There is a logistics problem in the fact I never know when the machine will be free after work, and since I have tons of other restoration projects going on, whether I have the time to make it worthwhile. Anyway, that's enough about CNC adventures. This is the Metal Shapers group after all and I'm afraid that my long discourse is boring some of you to catatonia. I'll post some pictures of my Atlas shaper when I get it finished. I'm down to reassembly time now. Thanks, Greg B. ------- Date: Thu, 29 May 2003 22:14:23 -0000 From: "dreilanderecht" Subject: Re: Atlas Rachet Case: WOW! http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Metal_Shapers_pix If you are not already a memeber of that group you will need to register for it too. It is an overflow for pictures from here. The ratchet case does look really nice... regards John ------- NOTE TO FILE: On 08 July 2003 Marty Escarcega started a thread on refinishing shapers and that expanded to other machines. For the benefit of all machinists, that conversation has been put into the text file Finish for Tools, which covers this general topic. ------- Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2003 18:17:08 -0700 From: "Marty Escarcega" Subject: Re: Digest Number 573 [7 inch South Bend question] > To remove the ram gib, after removing adjustment screws, is it > necessary to completely remove the ram before being able to remove the > gib for inspection and cleaning? TIA After just having done this, no, you remove the gib screws and gently tap out the gib. Nothing on the machine I worked on was holding it. To remove the ram, you have to reach inside under the castiron yoke (for a lack of better word) one end attaches to the ram and the other end pivots on the shaft. That yoke is set screwed to a flat on the shaft, loosen/remove the set screw and push the shaft out of the main casting, the yoke will drop so you can slide off the ram. Marty ------- Date: Sun, 03 Aug 2003 01:23:01 -0000 From: "don_kinzer" Subject: J-Line 8" refurbishing completed I have finished reassembling my Brodhead-Garrett J-Line 8" shaper (essentially the same as a Logan 8"). I have composed a web page with pictures of some of the damaged parts and their fabricated replacements as well as pictures of the finished product. http://www.kinzers.com/don/MachineTools/j-line_Shaper This machine has a significantly larger table than either the Atlas 7" or the South Bend 7". That together with the variable speed control and I think that this is going to be my favorite shaper of the three. Don Kinzer Portland, OR ------- Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2003 16:21:55 -0000 From: "don_kinzer" Subject: Re: J Line Shaper In Metal_Shapersx~xxyahoogroups.com, "Marty Escarcega" wrote: > Beautiful job on the restoration Don! Was the ram lever CNC cut? I need > one myself. Same thing, broken and brazed back together. How much did > that set you back and is there a possibility another could be made? The ram lever was laser cut. Since they already have the data entered, they can make another one for $35. If 5 were ordered, the price would be $22.50. Shipping from 97005 would be extra. I would guess that the shipping weight would be 5-7# per each. Note that the part is not ready to install but provides a good starting point. The following operations are required: - the slot needs to be milled out to the desired final size - the recess for the 24A-80088 crank pin washer needs to be milled - a disc about 11/16" thick needs to be attached to the lower end and then bored out for the Q14-00809 bearing. - a spacer/bushing needs to be added to the upper end which also needs to be drilled/tapped for the 17A-80061 stud. I didn't do any engineering calculations or stress analysis on this part. I simply copied the rough dimensions from the cast part on the assumption that a part made from HRS plate would be stronger than a similarly sized cast iron part. It's also heavier than the CI part. The drawing which I sent to the laser shop can be found here: http://www.kinzers.com/don/MachineTools/j-line_Shaper/lever_dwg.jpg Note that the drawing is incompletely dimensioned. I left it to the laser shop to determine the radii on the top end. They faxed back a proof drawing before the part was cut but I can't find it right now. If anyone wants one of these made, I'd be happy to place the order, pick up the parts and ship them out as a favor to group members. It would take a week, more or less, from order to pickup plus shipping transit time. Please email me directly (dkinzer at easystreet dot com) if you're interested. Don Kinzer ------- Date: Sun, 28 Sep 2003 20:33:20 -0000 From: "dreilanderecht" Subject: Weekends Effort I took a break from my steam launch engine project at the weekend to do a bit of work on the downfeed slide for the Alba 4S. (18") This has worked out so well that I thought I would take the time to describe what I have done. The problem was that someone in the dim and murky past had broken the dovetail corner off the slide. This was on the gibb stip side. About two inches was missing, off a slide which is about 11 inches long. They had shortened the gibb strip back so that the unsupported end was not sticking out. I wanted to do a repair that would look in keeping, preferably invisible once the part is painted. So I put the slide in the vertical mill and machined back the broken area to provide a flat seat for a new piece, with the end of the dovetail machined vertical. Since the break went below the level of the inside of the dovetail I took the cut as far back as the inside edge of the dovetail. It was about 3/16" deep at this point. The cutter left a radius at the inside corner. Since the cutter was 20mm, this radius is just over 3/8". I next made a block from continuous cast iron bar. This was machined on three adjacent faces, and the inside corner radiused to match the seat. This radius had to only go partway up the block, since the top had to butt against the end of the existing dovetail. I marked out the radius and then ground it freehand on the bench grinder. At this stage I tried the block in place with a little engineers blue. A bit of hand work with a scraper and small file on the machined seat gave a better fit, then I drilled and counterbored two holes for cap screws. These have to be carefully placed so that they don't break through into the dovetail area, and so the counterbore does not meet the outside edge. I degreased the parts and then screwed the block in place, bedding it in a little Locktite (tm) and also using this on the screws. Left it a while to set. The next part was machining the block back to match the existing surfaces. Fortunately the slide was within the capacity of the next smaller shaper, the Alba 1A (10") Actually the slide is about 11 inches, but the 1A will set to about that. I had just enough over run at each end. I had to take the felts off from the ram ways to provide clearance for the tools so she was a tight fit. I set everything up carefully with the dial gauge. The really critical part was machining the top of the block, since this slides on the ways on the end of the ram. I actually took a light skim of about 5 thou off the existing surface as well, since this was not in fact completely flat. This may have been a minor warp, or else a little wear. This cut also ensured that my new block was truely machined to the same surface. A vertical cut was then taken on the outside to match the block into the existing (machined) outside surface of the side. I was glad this was a machined surface rather than a possibly curved cast surface which would have been harder to blend to. The inside dovetail was not actually very critical, since the gibb strip goes on this side. I machined it until the tool was just witnessing on the existing dovetail. The angle of the dovetail took a little fiddling to match, according to my angle scale it is 54 degrees. The bottom surface was also skimmed until a witness was seen. (By this I mean that you could see that the tool was just touching, but not removing material) I did have to change the clamping arrangements before doing this cut, but this was able to be done by adding the new clamps before removing the old, so the alignment was not affected. The curved end of the slide was then reproduced on the block using the belt sander The other thing I did was carefully center pop and drill out two broken gibb screws. This worked well, and they cleaned up OK with the original size of tap, a quarter Whitworth. Next job will be to make a hole in the block for a gibb screw, and make a new gibb strip to replace the shortened one. But the tricky stuff is all done and once it is painted it won't even be possible to see that the repair has been done. I have seen bust corners like this fixed with braze, but since I didn't have the broken off piece I was going to have to machine a seat anyway, and it seemed to me that by avoiding heating I also avoid possible warps. It should be strong enough...it is held on with two 6mm cap screws and only suports one 1/4" whitworth gib screw. regards John ------- Date: Sat, 15 Nov 2003 22:26:29 +0000 From: Mick Collins Subject: Re: Reggie's Ersatz Clapper & Serial No. (Perfecto-5) "Art Volz" wrote: >Mick-- >--- In Metal_Shapersx~xxyahoogroups.com, Mick Collins wrote: >> One thing puzzles me about your machine and that is the peculiar >> flimsy looking tool post. Is this a later addition? My machine is >> like those on Tony's site with the tool clamped in a 5/16" square hole >> broached through the block which has to be a better arrangement. >Apparently one of the previous owners clipped Reggie's original >clapper and replaced it with an ersatz one for slotting. The >replacement is made of a length of 1-inch square steel with a >horizontal holding hole of 3/8-inch diameter. A threaded 10-24 set >screw hole enters vertically from the clapper's bottom to secure the >3/8-inch tool bit holder, as seen in the PIX in the "Perfecto-5" >album at our PIX alternate site. That owner also drilled and tapped >two 10-24 set screw holes on both sides of the clapper box; set >screws tightened in these holes fit into mating holes in each side >of the ersatz clapper to prevent its movement when slotting with a >proper slotting length piece of 3/16 square HSS. Apparently the >last owner was using this tool holder for normal shaping as the 3/16 >tool bit depicted in the PIX is too long for internal slotting and >is ground on both of its ends for shaping operations. >I'll probably make a lantern stye tool post, as shown on the first >set of Perfecto-5 PIX (the manual one) in that same album, and a >clapper to match. Need to order a piece of 1-inch square >steel...sometime soon. Thanks for the explanation Art. Good luck with the lantern type post. >> Incidentally my machine is No 278.3 Is yours earlier or later? >Stamped on Reggie's ID Plate is " 838/3 \ ". Don't know what that means. Oh dear - nor do I. >Maybe I should also ask: "When was my Perfecto made? Does anyone >have a manual? I'll gladly reimburse...." :-) I wonder if it ever had a manual? Some of those old time tool makers had the attitude, "If you don't know how to use the tool, why did you buy it?". Some years ago I bought a pop rivetting tool, this did have an instruction card and I quote from the maintenance and repair section: "If the tool does not work it is probably dirty and dry. Cleaning and oiling of all parts including the jaws must be done regularly by the user. Do not ask your dealer or the factory to do it for you. If you are able to use the tool when it is in order, you are able to repair it when it is not in order." Cheers - Mick at Elstead, halfway between London and Portsmouth, UK and at:- http://www.sylvestris.btinternet.co.uk ------- Date: Sat, 15 Nov 2003 23:34:41 -0000 From: "Peter Verbree" Subject: Re: Reggie's Ersatz Clapper & Serial No. (Perfecto-5) Art: When you get to ordering the material for the clapper you should consider using cast iron. I suspect that the original would have been cast, as it is MUCH easier to scrape to fit. On my last Atlas 7b I had to replace the clapper holder(outer bit) as it had a large crack from some ham-fisted soul trying to tighten the fit by driving the taper pin in too tight. I made the part slightly undersize and scraped it to fit the clapper. The difference it made to the finish on the work was very dramatic. On my Alba I don't think you would get a sheet of paper between the two parts. I wonder if Mick could confirm if the original is cast or steel, and how good a fit the mfgr intended originally. Regards Pete ------- Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2003 05:38:50 -0000 From: "joe_sozanski" Subject: Re: Reggie's Ersatz Clapper & Serial No. (Perfecto-5) I've got a Perfecto manual, there is s spot where paint/finish wore off the clapper and it appears to be cast. I've got the lantern type tool post on it. Joe ------- Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2003 11:22:03 +0000 From: Mick Collins Subject: Re: Re: Reggie's Ersatz Clapper & Serial No. (Perfecto-5) Original is C/I. Unpainted. Width is 0.999" with no machining or scraping marks visible. Box width is 1.0005". With surfaces oily there is no discernable play at the tool tip. Is it possible that ordinary rolled steel bar might be undersized for this job? It certainly wouldn't allow any 'scraping to fit' in my box. Cheers - Mick ------- Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2003 21:42:35 -0000 From: "Art Volz" Subject: Re: Reggie's Ersatz Clapper & Serial No. (Perfecto-5) Mick Collins wrote: > >Maybe I should also ask: "When was my Perfecto made? > >Does anyone have a manual? I'll gladly reimburse...." :-) Mick-- Of course--by my " :-) "--you knew that my questions above were made in jest. Those questions are only part of the litany of questions normally asked by new shaper owners...plus "what was its original paint color, how much does it weigh, does anyone have an original vise for sale, what size motor, how much is it worth, what kind of lube & where is the nearest Tractor Supply Company, where can I get parts...why is my spouse so b*tchy all of a sudden???" The Perfecto shaper may have had a manual as the Perfecto lathe had an Operators Manual & Threading Charts (Tony G., MP17 x~xx $18USD), but that was probably due primarily to show how to set up the change gears for thread cutting on the lathe. (English change gears appear to be in multiples of 5 teeth whereas US change gears are in even numbers of teeth--maybe this is not, though, a universal lathe "truth".) Tony also has 20 pages of Perfecto sales literature- -shapers, lathes, etc.--for $24 USD. All I have is Ian Bradley's "The Shaping Machine" and several c. 1970's catalogs from Caldwell Industries, Luling, Texas. As you also stated, Mick, old time users were expected to know how to correctly and safely operate the tools they bought; today the main reason for manuals are to protect the manufacturers from tort liability suits due to misuse of their products by ignorant users. The Perfecto shaper, with exposed gears, flapping links, unprotected belting, and ramming ram, would appear as a delicious feast to ravenous gaggles of predatory shysters. Heck, our fearless elected "leaders" would be wont to attempt their ban as those "Insidious Saturday Nite Shapers"...and, if only partially successful, would declare "Mission Accomplished!!!" A Perfecto style shaper couldn't be sold new today in the US of A unless the manufacturer had very "deep pockets"...and enjoyed feeding bags of Jeffersons into court house square parking meters. Art (A rainy afternoon...bayous a'rising...in Houston North.) ------- Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2003 21:03:38 -0000 From: "stevenson_engineers" Subject: Re: elliot 14m shaper > I have just purchased an Elliot 14m to replace my Elliot 14s shaper. > The 14m has some missing oiling wicks, what are they made of and > where can I get them. Pipe cleaners make a good cheap alternative. John S. ------- Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2003 22:18:15 -0000 From: "kc1fp" Subject: Re: elliot 14m shaper Oil wicks are made from hard white felt in rope and strip. McMasters has SAE grade F1 felt and F3 felt. The F3 is grey. Both of these are suitable. JP ------- NOTE TO FILE: A discussion of oiling wicks elsewhere suggested the use of portions of thick sport-style shoelace. See Lubricants General. ------- Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2003 14:20:12 -0000 From: "bob_quale" Subject: steptoe clutch My step toe shaper has a clutch that is glazed over, it is kind of like the brake shoes in a car. If I take a deep cut, the clutch slips and stalls the machine. Any ideas on a repair? I tried sanding them down but no luck, it still doesn't grab well. I wonder how tight the fingers should be? Bob ------- Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2003 09:00:34 -0800 From: "larry g" Subject: Re: steptoe clutch Bob: Have you considered having them relined. Most major cities have brake relining outfits that stock brake linings in many sizes. Be aware that lining materials come in many varieties so have a discussion with the relined to get the best material for your application. I'm assuming that you have a 2 shoe clutch that works inside a bell, or brake drum looking item. If so then consider having the drum turned also. If it is a multi disc flat plate type clutch then you may have to go the industrial route. I know that the flat plate clutch in my Sheldon looks a lot like the PTO clutch in my Oliver Tractor. lg ------- Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2003 11:13:05 -0600 From: "J. R. Williams" Subject: Re: steptoe clutch Bob, Consider drilling out the rivets that hold the lining in place and installing a shim under the lining. The small shaper is not a very hard clutch service. Joe W ------- Date: Fri, 26 Dec 2003 21:30:26 -0600 From: "J. R. Williams" Subject: Re: Re: steptoe clutch Bob, is the clutch a drum or a flat face? Try "brake lining." For light service woven belt material would work. JRW ------- Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2003 04:04:45 -0000 From: "xtrucker_1999" Subject: Re: steptoe clutch try bead blasting lightly. it will take the glaze off and drive the resin back down. works on car clutches. dt ------- Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2003 18:04:12 -0000 From: "kc1fp" Subject: Re: steptoe clutch Try someplace around you that deal with old tractors, they usually have someone that relines clutches and brakes. Maibac tractor in Iowa is one. JP ------- Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2003 20:03:11 -0600 From: "Harprit Sandhu" Subject: S7 Ratchet case. vise, tool holder etc. progress. To all who have been waiting for me to get done. Here is the status to date. I'll keep it short. Did all the drawings Got quotes!!!!! To many $$$ to program them Too many $$$ to set up each part Too many $$$ for each part in our kind of quantities. People with CNC machines think they have the world by the a----. The hell they do, not while guys like me still breathe. Enter the dragon..... Made pattern for all the castings!!!! For the ratchet case For the entire vise and base, all parts For the clapper and its yolk For the tool slide parts For a new tricky design to replace the table so vise can be mounted in vertical plane. Had to do some of the stuff three times before I got it right!! Designed the ratchet case so that it will accomodate S7 ratchet as is and a new ratchet that I have designed, that is much better and works about 10 times better and is easier to make.. Take your pick. Buiilt one to make sure it works. It does a great job. Did drawing. Went to Ohio (250 miles one way). Talked to the foundryman. Eyeball to eyeball. Showed him what I had and what I wanted. He said "Fine, no problem" Then he said "You came all that way just for this?" I said "It was important". He laughed. I laughed. Patterns go to him on Friday. Casting in my hands soon. Get your requests in so I can ask for the right quantities. (I will do other three misc aluminum case etc parts that I need soon. Sorry!) Phew!! So what have you done in the last few days???? (Sometimes, I can barely stand myself.) Thanks/Regards Harprit Singh Sandhu ------- NOTE TO FILE: John had been talking about the acquisition of yet another Alba shaper in a thread "New Shaper...Assembled" which was put into the Shaper History and Stories file. On 10 Jan 2004 he asked for advice on repairing a bracket and received a lot of good brazing and welding advice. See that file for some really helpful repair methods. ------- Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2004 09:20:53 -0600 From: "Mario L Vitale" Subject: Re: Re: Lewis Table Support? [IF NONE IS ON THE MACHINE ACQUIRED] The photo in the Lewis folder showing the table support is nice (although, if the only thing maintaining the height setting is what appears to be a set screw, it might not be ideal), however, I don't think it is an original Lewis support. In fact, as far as I know there was no original Lewis support..at least not according to the 1942 Lewis catalog. Since these machines were supplied as kits (raw castings or semi-finished) I suppose they thought the builder would be capable of fabricating their own. In some old posts there was lots of discussion of simple but effective designs, one being very similar to the photo mentioned except that the horizontal member supporting the table had a threaded hole and the vertical support was a large diameter threaded rod. Oh yes, I would recommend not permanently attaching the horizontal member to the table if you want to retain the original Lewis configuration. Mario ------- Date: Sat, 31 Jan 2004 21:13:34 -0000 From: "cdmacmanus" Subject: Atlas pinion/jack shafts I am currently working to refurbish an old Atlas 7" and have hit a snag. Both the pinion shaft and the jackshaft have heavy wear (almost 0.020") in the spots where the roller bearings bear on the shafts. I feel the "slop" in the shafts is unacceptable but don't know how to go about fixing it. Replace the bearings (if available!) or replace the shafts? Has anyone out there run into this problem? Thank you in advance! ------- Date: Sat, 31 Jan 2004 20:08:16 -0600 From: "J. R. Williams" Subject: Re: Atlas pinion/jack shafts Remove the old shafts and replace with new machined ones and new bearings. Far less work and problems compared to building up the old shafts and re-machining them back to size. I have welded worn areas on shafts using aluminum bronze and machining back to size. Too much work. Joe W ------- Date: Sun, 01 Feb 2004 18:51:18 -0000 From: volzmechatronicx~xxyahoo.com Subject: Re: Moarch schematics (Note: Fred is referring to http://www.metalworking.com/dropbox which is a wonderous storgage area for machine tool PIX, docs, you name it. Some Monarch 10ee schematics--both current year files and retired files--are there.) Fred-- As for parts for the AMMCO, there are no hidden warehouses secreted anywhere--not even amongst the HUGE stockpiles of "known" (by the "four nincompoops") WMD buried throughout the hinterlands of Eye-Rock. Most parts, other than the phenolic spiral toothed bull gear, can be readily fabricated --some just take more time, thought, and effort to effect. To find an original vise for any of the small shapers is difficult and is measured in years. Read my Msg last week "The Quest" about how it took me 4 years to find one for my Lewis...the only reason that I found one was due to good friends and good fortune helping me...and dedicted persistence on my part. There is a relatively good solution currently available at $199: the Palmgren swivel base 3-1/2 jawed Model 325B (Travers Tool); I have one thzt I sniped off of eBay at $125 NIB currently residing on my Benchmaster horizontal. Another solution, other than persistently monitoring the offerings on eBay, is to make the AMMCO vise for which complete dimensioned drawings are available here in "files". You will need to download and install the free eDrawing reader to view and print out these sheets. (If you have a problem back-channel me.) Yet another way is to find (yeah, sure!!) an Atlas shaper vise or a South Bend one for temporary (UN-MODIFIED) AMMCO use. These go "generally" for about $175 on eBay--an Atlas vise, however, just sold for $258. Vises are often costlier to purchase than the machine tool itself. There is another solution, but it isn't done yet, maybe this spring after Mario is done traipsing about the universe. Both Mario and I are exploring methodology (process engineering) for easy and cheap vise fabrication. Some of our initial self-imposed engineering design constraints are: --minimal machining: drill press with el cheapo X-Y table, lathe, and shaper (of course). --off-the-shelf metal stock cut to length (as ordered); finish machining of ends via shaper. (see: Metal Mart/Metal Express--just one handling fee per a complete order. These guys are so fast it's unbelievable and the stuff is pre-cut to length: ie the cost for 12 inches of something is the same price as the same piece cut into 12 smaller 1-inch lengths.) --off-the-shelf fasteners. --off-the-shelf screws, with simple modification. --pinned construction (in shear w/hardened off-the-shelf dowel pins). ----fixed in place with: ------Silver-soldering (90,000psi tensile). and/or: ------Hardened alloy steel fasteners (off-the-shelf) --vises are designed for hobbiest use in making one-off parts and NOT for industrial use that requires quick change of work capabilty. --all will be painted purple with pink pin striping. :-) Art (Houston: gotta run...as you get older, you can't fool nature as long as you used to be able to do. :-)) ------- Date: Mon, 02 Feb 2004 01:04:38 -0000 From: "dreilanderecht" Subject: Ammco vice Art is certainly right about the lack of parts for the AMMCO, but that won't be a problem apart from the gear. On the vice, the fabrication idea is quite workable, and in fact if you check out Artz drawings you will see that this one is just about ideal to fabricate since it is pretty "blocky" as it stands. So a nicely fabricated one will not look significantly different to a real one. Not like the ones with fancy curves. (My Alba one has a kind of dish around it for chips to collect in...kind of hard to machine from solid...) Another thought would be to make up the patterns and get castings made, if of course you have a foundry available. I have done this for the vice and for the dividing attachment. I only got them cast in ordinary grey iron, I should have got the vice done in spheroidal graphite iron but didn't think of it. But actually the iron will be OK for amateur use anyway. I even have a spare set of castings for each, but you probably wouldn't want to pay postage from New Zealand. regards John ------- Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 19:15:02 -0000 From: volzmechatronicx~xxyahoo.com Subject: Where Can I Find...???? In BurkeMillsx~xxyahoogroups.com, "blackcrowforge" wrote: > I have a Burke #4 Model B. Could any of you kind souls steer me in > the right direction to getting a new arbor for it? Thanks! > Jeff Higgins, New Hampshire, USA This is a reply that I posted to a message at the Burke Mills Yahoo group to an individual looking for an arbor for his machine. Much of my response is germaine to similar often asked questions at this group, such as: --Where can I find a swivel base vise...for my 1890...?? --Where can I find an adjustable Colton No.2 (Keystone) tool holder?? --Anyone know of a source of spare parts for my...Krakowski...?? --- In BurkeMillsx~xxyahoogroups.com, volzmechatronicx~xxy... wrote: >>>Jeff -- There are only five sources for Burke arbors: 1--Turn your own. Recommend 12L14 as it machines easily. 2--eBay. Some days you get lucky...and your daily diligence pays off. I looked for an arbor for my Benchmaster horizontal for 2 years B4 one showed up on eBay and I won it at the very last second-- BANG!!!--for $125. I consider myself fortunate as it was NOS and relatively cheap...as arbors go. Source 3 pointed me to it on eBay. 3--Friends on the net who know you're looking for something and add their eyeballs to your Quest. I got a short arbor for my Benchmaster this way: out of the blue. 4--New manufacture from D.C. Morrison. May be quite pricey--you'll have to ask. Brace yourself B4 you read their reply: a down-the- hatch triple shot of J.W. Dant sour mash 100 octane is appropriate. 5--The best way is to get your tooling--arbors, etc--when you buy your Burke mill itself. If you didn't (or don't), go to the top of this page and start at No. 1. :-) Good luck! Enjoy the Quest. <<< If you're into old machines, no longer made and no longer supported, maybe some of the "sources" I discussed will work for you too. But, nothing is "overnite" or even by "the end of next week". With old machines lengthy Quests and brew-your-owns are the norm. Enjoy the Quests, they're often the most fun: it's the journey, NOT the destination. Good hunting! Art (Houston) ------- Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 21:15:21 -0000 From: volzmechatronicx~xxyahoo.com Subject: Wiper Felt: Re: South Bend Shaper help > I am working on my south bend shaper and am wondering what others > use to replace the wiper felts? Mark Stuart Mark--I use F-11 grade gray felt, 3/16 inch thick, obtainable from http://www.mcmaster.com for wipers on my Lewis-10...and on my c.1941 Logan/Monkey-Ward 10 x 24. It is # 87985K2 . Logan Actuator offers pre-cut kits of this type felt for those with Logan shapers (see URL at "Links" here.) Art (Houston) ------- Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2004 22:47:03 -0000 From: "dreilanderecht" Subject: Wiper Felt: Re: South Bend Shaper help I have to admit to some gentle amusement at the idea of mail ordering felt from a machine tool supplier. I bet the craft shop down at the mall has a range of thicknesses, and colours too. You could also try the pet shop...my wife works in one and brought home a couple of circles of grey felt about five inches diameter and maybe a quarter thick. They sell them for the cage birds to lay their eggs on. Quite cheap too. regards John. (From the home of 60 million sheep....) ------- Date: Sun, 21 Mar 2004 20:07:19 -0000 From: "Peter Verbree" Subject: More planer progress I have just posted some more planer pictures on the shapeaholic site. I have posted several pictures sent to me by Mr. John Stubbe, of Oregon. John has a post 1870 P&W planer still in use in a part-time job shop. GO JOHN!! I have also posted a couple of pic's of the "new" cross feed ratchet I built for my planer. Details of this mechanism were supplied by John. Only one mystery left to solve and she should come back to life! http://www.angelfire.com/sc3/shapeaholic/Planer.html Cheers Pete ------- Date: Tue, 06 Apr 2004 23:54:11 -0000 From: "kc5ezc" [atlas_craftsman group] Subject: Re: Headless Dog Point Set Screws I needed some 1/4x28x1" slotted head, full dog point set screws for my Atlas 7B shaper. Finally had to make some. I can't find them anywhere. Lots of socket head set screws, but that is not what I wanted. I looked in trevers, victor machine, J&L, MSC, ENCO, wholesale tools, and various screw products makers and sellers. They are probaably out there, but it was quicker to make them. Get a piece of 1/4 28 rod, a lathe, and a file and go for it! John Burchett in Ada OK ------- Date: Fri, 16 Apr 2004 04:39:25 -0000 From: "Patrick Mullarky" Subject: Help with disassembly - SB 7 SHaper I have finally started restoring a South Bend 7" Shaper I acquired last year. I have run across three disassembly problems: the cross-slide, oil pump, and the bull gear. I want to completely disassemble the shaper for painting because the original paint has completely deteriorated. Even with the cross-slide gib removed, the cross-slide doesn't come out nearly far enough to come off the elevating screw's pin. How do I remove the elevating screw? The Army Manual drawings are quite vague. Does it all come apart from the bottom? Second problem: how are the two oil pump-tube bosses near the ram ways removed from the casting? They look like they are simply force- fit...but I don't want to destroy them...the oil pump is barely working and needs fixin'. And, third, how does the bull gear (phenolic) come off the bull gear shaft ? I have studied it quite carefully, and I cannot see how to do it. The phenolic is quite soft, and I'm afraid of damaging it... I removed the cap screws and flathead screws on the stroke plate thinking there might be a nut on the bull gear shaft underneath... but the stroke plate will NOT come off! (At least not willingly!) I'm hoping some of you who have restored SB Shapers can help me out or point me in the right direction! -Patrick- ------- Date: Sat, 17 Apr 2004 00:08:35 -0700 (PDT) From: Patrick OBrien Subject: Re: Help with disassembly - SB 7 SHaper 1. The cross slide must be lifted off. Remove the vise. remove the two bolts inside the table that hold the table and the bronze cross slide nut together. dont drop table. In the lower pivot shaft you will find a setscrew holding the pivot shaft and arm together. It's a square head under the shaft remove setscrew. Drive out shaft. Remove shaper head and pivot arm. raise crossslide with elevation screw and lift off cross slide. (I think. Its been a long time.) 2. I have no idea. 3.DONT PRY THE GEAR OFF!!!!!!! gently drive out the tapered pin holding the cross slide power feed adjusting wheel out. Remove the wheel. Push the shaft and bull gear into the body far enough to get small wood blocks between the back side of the bull gear and the inside of the shaper body. (two blocks please) Gently tap shaft out of bull gear. Lift out gear, Push out shaft! 4. Be careful, this is recited from memory. ------- Date: Sat, 17 Apr 2004 08:07:20 -0000 From: "John Rouche" Subject: Logan 7" clean-up Posted some new pictures of the cleaning of my Logan 7" if interested. They are in the Metal_Shapers_Pix group under the "John's Logan" folder. Thanks, John. ------- Date: Tue, 01 Jun 2004 00:16:17 -0000 From: "kowallrb" Subject: Re: Sources I recently contacted South Bend Lathe about repair parts for a South Bend 7" shaper. They referd me to a gentleman by the name of Ted Pflugner. He has a VERY GOOD supply of parts for the South Bend shaper and supplied me with a complete (brand new/never used) tool slide and clapper box. Contact him at "latheman2x~xxaol.com". Reid ------- Date: Mon, 07 Jun 2004 22:14:22 -0000 From: volzmechatronicx~xxyahoo.com Subject: Re: late model G&E "Tommy Ward" wrote: > Looks like someone got a very nice machine. > Price probably justified by condition. Shame it was so far away - > been kinda of nice to acquire a "plug & play" piece of equipment > for once. TW It is a very nice looking late (c. 1973) middle size shaper with a lot of bells and whistles. The weight and price are both hefty--hope the buyer knows how get it home on the cheap: 4500 lbs is more than I could handle. All of my machines I've had to partially dissassemble and lug 'em home in the back of my Quest, and then one-man wrestle them into position and reassemble. The hardest one to do was my c. 1941 Logan/Monkey-Ward 10 x 24 lathe. It stayed in the backend of the Quest for a month while I tried to think like an Egyptian. I finally used pieces of 2 x 4's and levers and...one heck of a lot of strained to the max arm-strong power...but, I managed to get it in, reassemble it, and get it up and running. I won't buy a basket case machine. It has to be sound and operatable. Accessories, tooling, vises, vise handles, speed reducers, are usually needed, so none of mine--except for the lathe and the Lewis shaper--ran "out of the van"--but I'm getting there. Still have to get a phase converter for the Dayton motor/speed- reducer combo for the Rusnok/Benchmaster mill, and a 4PDT toggle switch for the Rusnok motor...but, then that one's done. The Lewis shaper needs an adaptor plate installed on the table on which to mount the OEM Lewis vise--a 1/2 inch piece of aluminum plate is enroute; will also experiment with mounting my Logan 5AS-7 shaper vise to the plate as well, as it opens wider and is lower in height. Still have to mount the older variable speed treadmill motor to the Perfecto-5 (but I finally thunk out the how-to), mount the new lantern tool post that I made for it, braze the smaller (3/16 square bit) adjustable tool holder that I also made, and finish mounting the Burke 3-1/2 inch plain vise to the table. Have to mount a vise--or build one--to the manual traversing head 5-inch British shaper as well. The Lewis horizontal mill finally has a motor to hook up to the OEM jackshaft--that 1/2 HP 1140 rpm motor has been in the back of my van since I picked it up in January at Tractor Supply Co. while driving back to Houston from Austin. It will probably be done last-- now that the dual capability Benchmaster/Rusnok combo is almost up-- since I have to go back and replace the felt seals on the spindle ball bearings: they've been in there since Burton built it in 1947. And last, but not least, is the sloooooooow restoration of my ancient Barnes 4-1/2...back to the original foot cranking velocipede as it was born back about 1890. But, you're right--to be able to run one machine (I was lucky with the Logan/MW lathe and the Lewis shaper (except for the right vise)-- right out of the box, with all of the accessories and tooling and motorized drive, would indeed be nice. But, then, where's the fun? Four pieces came in the mail today: 4 square hole wrenches, 3 of them 8-pt Armstrongs. Even when you "win" a vise, they never seem to have the square wrench that they need. Today, a few more vises have wrenches (as does now my lantern tool post on the Lewis shaper) for I got a 5/16, a 3/8, a 7/16, and a 9/16. Getting there! And getting ready to roll out a new prototype wheellock lock of my own internal design. Won the "How to Build Your Own Wheellock Rifle or Pistol" book today as well. Been looking for one of those for ever it seems. When you're winning...you're on a roll. Art (Houston) ------- Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2004 16:50:16 -0500 From: "Scott S. Logan" Subject: RE: Logan shaper belts, What size are they? Motor Belt - 4L400 Main Belt - 4L460 -- Scott S. Logan, Vice President Tel +1 (815) 943-9500 Logan Actuator Co. Fax +1 (815) 943-6755 550 Chippewa Rd Email sslx~xxlathe.com Harvard IL 60033-2372 USA Web http://www.lathe.com ------- Date: Fri, 05 Nov 2004 16:02:43 -0000 From: "Don Kinzer" Subject: Re: J-Line shaper "hoff7133" wrote: > I have a line on an 8" J-Line for pretty cheap and it is nearby. > It needs a belt cover and some parts to the table feed. I have a J-Line shaper also which required some replacement part fabrication during renovation. I have a few pictures on a web page at: http://www.kinzers.com/don/MachineTools/j-line_Shaper If you can't find a manual, you can buy a reprinted manual (operating instructions and parts list) from Logan Actuator. The manual is specifically for the Logan 8" but it is almost identical to the Brodhead-Garrett J-Line 8". Here is a link to buy the manual on-line: http://lathe.safeshopper.com/2/365.htm?957 If you browse around that site, you'll find that you can also buy a complete set of prints for the machine for $100. ------- Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2005 20:30:22 -0000 From: "Irby Jones" Subject: Logan 8 table & ram alignment Hi all, has anyone measured how parallel the top table surface is to the ram travel on a Logan 8 (or anything else for that matter)? I wanted to replane an old vise that is pretty chewed up, and have to mount the vise directly on the logan's table. To make sure I would cut the vise surface parallel to its base, I clamped an indicator to the front face of the ram and measured how parallel the table top was to the ram axis of travel by sweeping the indicator across the table front-to-back as I moved the ram. The table was high in the front by .002", and measured that way anywhere along the width. I figured the old varnish-like oil film on the ways may be causing this, so I'm in the process of tearing it all apart and giving it a good cleaning, which it needed anyway. The table ways look like they've hardly been used. I can't see any wear at all on the gibs or the ways. The ram ways in the base seem to be worn a few thousandths, but evenly front-to-back as far as I can tell. There's a definite ridge. The ram itself doesn't show any ridges, but it bears over the full width of the ways, so that probably doesn't mean anything. I put a straightedge up to the ram ways and don't see any gap in the middle, so maybe they are not worn unevenly. BUT when I put a square against the ram ways and the vertical slide ways, they are not 90 degrees. There's a definite gap between the square and the top of the vertical ways. I haven't measured the gap, but I can clearly see one. It's the same on both sides, and it's the same whether I use the worn or unworn areas of the ram ways. It seems like the surfaces were cut that way. And that would make the table top surface higher in the front, as I've measured. Now the question is - were the sliding surfaces cut that way on purpose to account for a drop of the table front with wear? I have read that good practice is to set up a machine so it "wears more accurate". And if wear on the table sliding surfaces would cause the front to drop, then possibly the Logan folks set the front higher to start with. Is this a far out thought? I guess Scott could answer this. Or was this machine recut somewhere in its life, and they didn't get it true? Anyone have any thoughts? Or is a .002" error in 8" OK after all, and I'm just being too picky? Thanks, Irby in VA ------- Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2005 22:49:22 -0000 From: "al_messer" Subject: Re: Logan 8 table & ram alignment Well now, Irby, I would say that .002" is O.K. for what I use a shaper, reducing "junk" that I have scrounged down to a usable size and shape, usually for further machining. If your needs are more precise that this, you may have to consider a surface grinder or a face mill. Al Messer ------- Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2005 14:32:21 -0800 From: John A. Landry Subject: Re: Logan 8 table & ram alignment On Fri, 21 Jan 2005 20:30:22 -0000, Irby Jones said: >Or is a .002" error in 8" OK after all, and I'm just being too picky? Irby, maybe others won't agree, but with these old machines of unknown usage and wear, I think 0.002" accuracy is pretty darn respectable. Now that's not to say you shouldn't pursue ways to make it more accurate mind you, but don't set your expectations too high and then get disappointed and frustrated when it won't hold sub 0.001" tolerances. I have a WWII era 7" Porter-Cable shaper that I found varied a few thousandths between the ram head and table when traversing the table from side to side. The error was the same either direction of traverse... the trailing side of the table would be a few thousandths higher than the leading edge. I figured out the table gibs were apparently a little loose and the table would tilt a little when being "dragged" on the properly lubricated support leg. Careful snugging up the table gibs eliminated most of it without making the table too stiff to move properly. That was one accuracy problem eliminated. Now as for ram "droop" (which causes the ram head to be closer to the front of the table), if you can't adjust it out by means of the table gibs (using shims) and/or the ram gibs, one work around you may want to consider is this (which is what I did)... Make a new table surface which measures true to the ram travel! I used a 7" x 7" piece of 1" thick 6061-T6 aluminum plate I found laying around at a local metal dealer, but there's no reason it has to be that thick of course... probably 1/4" on up would work just fine. The plate goes on top of the table and under your vise of course. Use the shaper itself to shave off a thin layer off the aluminum plate. Of course the plate will need to be fastened to the table top from underneath or the sides before you can do this. You can even use recessed Allen head set screws from the top if the plate is thick enough... which is what I did. Once you shave off a thin layer from the plate, the plate (now table top) will be perfectly true to the ram travel. Then you'll have to deal with the old vise and it's problems. :) Good luck and best regards, John L. Shoreline, WA ------- Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2005 23:31:22 -0000 From: "Irby Jones" Subject: Re: Logan 8 table & ram alignment > Make a new table surface which measures true to the ram travel! That's the first thing I thought of, and may end up doing. It's certainly easier than trying to redo the existing ways to get them more perpendicular! At any rate, I thought I'd ask you folks if it was supposed to be this way, and if I'm being too picky. I've never noticed it until I wanted to cut that old vise "exactly" flat to its base. BTW, it's a different vise than the one with my logan. The Logan vise is fine. Thanks for the input, all of you. Irby ------- Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2005 16:07:21 -0800 From: "larry g" Subject: Re: Logan 8 table & ram alignment Irby, I think that you answered your own question when you measured the angle between the ram ways and the table ways. They are not square! Now as to where the problem lies me thinks you have to do a bit more checking. Can you check if the table top is 90 degrees to the vertical ways it rides on? If it is it's ok, and I would expect it to be as it moves very little on those ways. I would suspect that the ram is worn and drooping as it has traveled many more strokes that the table has. What I think I would do is place a parallel on the table top, shim it up .002" near the column and then indicate the top of the parallel. If you now get an even reading you can be confident that the ram is traveling in a straight line and has not worn so that the tool is traveling in an arc. If the ram is traveling a straight line then by all means install an additional plate on the top of the table and plane it off so that it matches the line that the ram travels. If the ram is traveling in an arc then I do not believe that an additional table top will help as what you affix to it will bow and when released will no longer be flat. lg ------- Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2005 00:14:24 -0000 From: "Geoff Kingma" Subject: Re: Logan 8 table & ram alignment I have just about completed a total overhaul of my 6" Ammco and I found the same error between the ram ways and the vertical ways. They were not even perpendicular to the base. I used a friend's milling machine to redo the ram and ways on the body as there was quite a bit of wear on the 60 degree part of the main frame ways (0.012" wider at the front). After pondering for half an hour or so re the vertical "error" and how to machine it, I realized that it wasn't important since one fixes the cross slide for each job and adjusts the feed by means of the "top slide". As long as the table is true (by skimming it) I don't think there is a problem. Perhaps those with more insight might have a comment re this. It would be interesting to see the original manufacturing drawings because I can't see how there could be such a big tolerance - Did we just get a "Monday" machine? Regards, Geoff ------- Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2005 00:57:22 EST From: jmartin957x~xxaol.com Subject: Re: Logan 8 table & ram alignment Irby, before you undertake any corrections, I think I'd see how it cuts first. Cutting metal puts a lot more pressure on the ways and gibs than sweeping an indicator does, and you may find that the table was deliberately made a bit high in front to counteract any flex in cutting. I could very well be wrong. I do know, though, how I'd feel if I scraped the ways or table into perfect alignment and then found that it left a workpiece thicker at the front. John Martin ------- Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 13:16:32 -0000 From: "eng4turns" Subject: To Harden or Not to Harden? Here's a question for the group: I made a new ratchet pawl for my Porter- Cable AS-7 last night. The original was bent and while it didn't affect performance, it offended the eye. Anyway, made a new one out of W-1 drill rod and filed new tip profiles. The ratchet wheel itself shows very little wear but the old pawl had some pretty good wear on it. So, should I harden the new pawl? My gut tells me "no". It is far easier to make a new pawl than a new ratchet wheel. What's your opinion? Ed in Florida ------- Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 07:29:43 -0600 From: "Mario L Vitale" Subject: Re: To Harden or Not to Harden? Ed, I'd say you have a very sensible gut. Mario ------- Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 19:37:52 -0000 From: "eng4turns" Subject: Re: To Harden or Not to Harden? > I totally agee with Mario. Let the easiest and cheapest part to > replace, the pawl, be the sacrificial member of the pair. That you > can readily make a replacement for the pawl is evident; making a > replacement for a worn out toothed ratchet wheel would be much more > difficult. A different question, but of the same theme. If you needed to > replace the ratchet wheel on your PC-7, is there an off-the-shelf > standard gear that could be utilized such as one of those offered by > http://www.mcmaster.com ? Would a gear, with involute geometry > shaped teeth, even work as a ratchet wheel? Art (Houston) Art and Mario; Thanks for the excellent feedback. Art, you remind me of a good teacher I had once. He'd answer my question and then pose me two. The existing original ratchet wheel has extremely shallow (didn't measure but probably not more than 50 thou deep) square notches. It doesn't look to me like a commercial gear of any kind would work without completely changing the profile of the teeth. I think the square shape of the ratchet tooth is important to the pawl being able to catch the lip of the tooth squarely (I filed the pawl with a little undercut.) Any angle on the pawl or tooth will tend to push it up out of the notch against the spring pressure, just like what happens on the back stroke. The sear of the pawl is only about 50 thou deep, approximately matching the depth of the ratchet wheel notch. The ratchet wheel doesn't look difficult to make. I've made gears and I could probably make a new ratchet wheel but I'd make it out of drill rod/ tool steel and harden it, then stone it. In a pinch, with no precision divider capability, it looks to me like you could make one with a file and a paper-based divider circle on the perimeter of the blank. You might lose some precision on the lead screw advance because each "click" of the advance would vary by any differences in the width of the teeth and/or the notch spacing. How important is that for most shaper operations? I'd say not too much but I'm no shaper expert. So, while you could probably modify a hardened commercial gear to work, it looks to me like it would be easier to make a new ratchet. By the way, it took me three hours to make the pawl from a blank piece of 3/8" drill rod including filing and stoning the ramp and sear. There might have been a long neck or two in there somewheres. A new ratchet wheel from blank stock, start to finish, hardened & stoned, would probably be six to eight hours using a divider. The only critical element of the pawl is the engagement sear and the camming ramp on the backside. The ratchet wheel has several critical components/features: Concentricity between Major and Minor diameters of the notches/teeth and the shaft center, shape and spacing of the teeth, location and taper of the #3 taper pin hole that connect the wheel to the ACME lead screw and finally the hardening which could easily distort such small teeth. So, I will not harden the pawl. Thanks again. Ed in Florida ------- Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 15:30:06 -0800 From: John A. Landry Subject: Re: What filter & where to find it for my 14" Steptoe On 30 Mar 2005 Mark Long said: >The old one has p48 marked on it. >Hoping the "P" might mean Purolator? Here is a pic of the filter: >"http://members2.boo.net/~marklong/Steptoe2/filter2.jpg" >Can anyone point me toward a source? Purolator's web >site is no help. Shows only automotive applications. Mark, I went to the Baldwin filter catalog web site (http://catalog.baldwinfilter.com/) and punched in "P48" in their cross reference search engine and it shows it crosses over to a Baldwin P80 lube filter. The Baldwin P80 replaces: PHILLIPS 66 P48 PUROLATOR P48 and REFILCO P48. Descriptions: Microlite Full-Flow Lube Element O.D.: 3-15/16" (100.0mm) I.D.: 7/8" (22.2mm) Length: 4-13/16" (122.2mm) Does that look right? You can order Baldwin filters from Williams Oil Filter Service in Tacoma, WA, (253) 627-8163. Let me know if you need any help as their a mile down the street from where I work. I know they'd be happy to ship to you direct anywhere, but I could also pick up the filter you need and ship it to you. Best regards, John L. Shoreline, WA ------- Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 01:35:40 -0000 From: "ikimjing" Subject: Sheldon shaper parts wanted I know this is a real long shot but Ill try. I have a 12" Sheldon that I started to redo. I need a micrometer dial. They are all 3 the same so doesn't matter. Also need a knob for one of the access doors. Any chance I can still purchase these ??? Thanks, Jim ------- Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 03:02:19 GMT From: "mikejanfx~xxjuno.com" Subject: Re: Sheldon shaper parts wanted Jim: If all else fails, just make them. Key is to turn your mic collar between centers on a pressed in tapered arbor (which you can also make on the lathe, I like a .006 taper in a 6" arbor although factory arbors are usually .003 taper per 6".) Then transfer it to a dividing head for cutting the marks. There are 3 mark lengths. The 1, 2, 3, 4 and 6, 7, 8, 9 marks are the shortest. The "5" marks are the longest. The 0, 10, 20 . . . 90 marks are midway between the other marks leaving you space to stamp in the numbers. Don't know what the pitch of your screws are, but 10 tpi will give you 100 on the divisions of your mic collar and 8 tpi will give you 125 divisions. One neat little trick I learned to keep numbers straight and in the same plane is to set up your mic collar back in the lathe once all the lines are scribed. Start with the "0" number on a "middle length" line. (Note: do not put the tightening screw hole by the "0", put it anywhere else, otherwise it makes it hard to zero the collar on your index mark.) Put a left cutting tool holder in your lantern tool post (the holder is bent to the right), and put your "0" stamp number in the tool holder sideways (zero laying flat, not verticle) tighten the tool bit bolt on the stamp. Now position the lantern tool post and get the stamp laying flat and right where you want it by moving the carriage and revolving the collar. Once it is in the right position, lock down the carriage. Now lock your compound, and turn your cross feed in snugly. Take a small brass hammer and tap the stamp. It should not harm your cross feed nut (since most crossfeeds have some back lash and you won't be imbedding the numbered stamp deeper than your backlash). Next, back out the stamp with the cross- feed, rotate the dial to the "10", remember to offset the "0" to leave room for the "1" and do the same above proceedure. Eventually you have to go back and put in the 1,2, 3, etc., but it keeps all the numbers lined up, you make no slips, and it keeps all the numbers in the same plane. Don't have a dividing head? Find a 100 or 125 tooth gear, attach it firmly to the arbor, and index off it. You could possibly even use your shaper with a sharp "v" bit to do the scribing as you hand crank it for each mark. Tedious, but workable. Polish the mic collar before the scribing or numbering. Give it a shot. Mike in Iowa ------- Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2005 15:44:30 -0000 From: "Art Volz" Subject: Re: G&E.. finding oil filter --- In Metal_Shapersx~xxyahoogroups.com, "rjtrms" wrote: > Hey there Guys... Need a hyd. oil filter for my 1960's 16" hyd. G&E > shaper.. "Purolator" brand is in the parts book ...have no idea what > # it should be..or cross over # for it....Can any of you guys help??? > Robbie Download the Army TM for the Mitts & Merril shaper in "Files" here. It's a G&E. Go to Sheet Number C16. Is that what your filter element looks like? You may be able to save it for a while by cleaning it first in denatured alcohol and then with kerosine. At least you might get it clean enuf to measure it and/or take it with you on filter search trips. Have you tried to contact the boys at Purolator Supreme Headquarters yet? Use: http://www.pureoil.com and click onto their contact clicker. Filter search trips could include farm stores such as TSC, farm tractor dealers, heavy earth moving equipment dealers, farm tractor hobbiests.... I doubt that Purolator designed a filter just for G&E. G&E probably used a standard off-the-shelf parts-bin Purolator filter-- other bbrands will probably work as well. Go into our archives and locate Matt I. He had a filter element problem with his Western shaper and, if I remember correctly, he was able to find one that fit. Art (Houston) ------- Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2005 09:21:50 -0700 From: "Jason J" Subject: Re: Re: G&E.. finding oil filter You might also contact Williams Oil Filter Service Co., also known as Wofsco. They seem to known everything about oil filters and have a huge inventory. 1247 Puyallup Avenue Tacoma WA 98401 Tel: 253 627 8163 http://www.wofsco.com ------- Date: Sun, 03 Jul 2005 17:39:45 -0000 From: "metalmill52" Subject: South Bend Advice Needed I have gotten my 7inch SB shaper taken apart and have stripped most of the old paint, hoping to shoot primer tomorrow. I need to ask for some advice on final diasassembly of the crossslide leadscrew. I've removed the acorn nut, second nut, washer and bearing from one end, but the leadscrew does not want to come out the "right" side. Is there some hidden setscrew or pin holding it in, or should I use "force" (gear puller or tapping it out)? Many thanks for all the advice so far! I'll send a post reporting on how the Ben Moore Industrial primer does... Happy Independence Day and Semper Fi to All! Bill C. Pensacola, FL ------- Date: Sun, 3 Jul 2005 12:47:04 -0500 From: "Daniel J. Stone" Subject: Re: South Bend Advice Needed Hi Bill: When I took my SB apart I did not have a problem with the cross- slide leadscrew. It just unscrewed from the bronze bearing that was bolted to the table. The leadscrew actuator, screw and handle came out as a unit. When you attempt to remove yours where does it seem to be hold up at? Dan ------- Date: Sun, 03 Jul 2005 17:56:01 -0000 From: "metalmill52" Subject: Re: South Bend Advice Needed Hi Dan: Glad you are on line! It is holding up at the right hand side, near where the line drawn from the Number 20 is in the drawing on page 35 of the Army manual. It is almost as though there is a snap ring or something retaining the cross feed screw inside the right hand side of the housing. Any Ideas? Thanks! Bill C. ------- Date: Mon, 04 Jul 2005 01:26:03 -0000 From: "metalmill52" Subject: Re: South Bend Advice Needed Just to follow up - I got it out! Thanks for the advice - Based on your assurance that there was no pins or screws to break, I put a "chock" behind the bronze bearing and just turned the handle - I am almost embarassed to admit how easily it came out. Thanks again! I have a new question for any or all, is there some special fastener that holds those tri-ball handles on? I can see a small hole in the center of the fastener, but none of my hex wrenches fit it. Doesn't appear to be a clutch head like are so common on my 52 Chevy...Looks like I need to remove the center portion before I can use a straight blade screwdriver to remove the handle. As always, any advice is appreciated. Thanks, Bill C. Pensacola, FL ------- Date: Sun, 3 Jul 2005 20:40:25 -0500 From: "Daniel J. Stone" Subject: Re: Re: South Bend Advice Needed Bill, I have two different types of nuts that hold the balance ball handles on my SB. The one on the cross-slide is just a normal 7/16 hex head nut. The problem is that the nut fits in a recess in the middle ball of the handle. You need to find just the right socket or wrench to grab on to the 1/8 inch or so sticking up above the ball. Luckily the nut on mine was not on too tight and a six point wrench was able to grab it. The other style has an interrupted screw slot in the fastener. I just took a cheap hardware store screwdriver and cut a notch in the blade with a Dremel cutoff wheel; it reaches over the center threads of the screw and removes it slick as a whistle. All these handles are on the screws pretty tightly; they have a short piece of rod in a pocket milled in the handle and they screw together. The rod is about .125 X .250 on my handles, easy to lose but also easily made if you do lose it. Hope this helps. Dan ------- Date: Mon, 04 Jul 2005 02:25:55 -0000 From: "metalmill52" Subject: Re: South Bend Advice Needed Dan: That helps alot - great idea! I may try my little snap ring pliers like a spanner before I grind a screwdriver, but I appreciate you letting me in on your secret! Bill C. Pensacola, FL ------- Date: Mon, 04 Jul 2005 19:12:37 -0000 From: Subject: Re: South Bend Advice Needed An alternative to snap ring pliers or grinding a screwdriver is to take a fender washer and cut it in half. Then apply to your screw and turn it with a pair of pliers. It worked for me. Good luck, Dennis in Mill Creek, WA ------- Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2005 17:00:17 -0000 From: "johann_ohnesorg" Subject: Ramways with rust Tomorrow, I´m going to take a look at a shaper which I intend to buy. From pictures I got so far, I can see the machine is rusted because it sat on the outside for 2 weeks. Now my question: I´ll take the machine apart and will clean it up anyhow. But how serious will the rust affect the accuracy of the machine? From what I´ve seen, the ram is rusted "to a normal extent", the feedslide for the x-motion does not look so good...it was sticking out into sun & rain. Does scotch brite and wd40 do the job or do I have to rework the machine on another machine? Any hints from people who have done this before? Like: Stuck ram from rust? leave the s**ker where it is? Any special tips, concerning electrics? Problem is some part looks okay on the pictures, other seem to have a coarse, rusty surface. Cheers, Johann ------- Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2005 18:16:44 -0000 From: "Art Volz" Subject: Re: Ramways with rust Johann--I wouldn't take it apart--lube it well and see how well everything moves first...wiping and oiling as you go. Rust is softer than steel and iron...see if you can't just adjust and get it running properly. Then get out your dial indicators and see where you are. Don't use anything abrasive unless it's a last resort to getting the shaper "un-glued". WD-40 may help desolve some of the old lube crud but don't consider it a lubricant for the shaper slide ways: use a medium weight way lube designed for slide ways. I shudder when I hear people say that they're going to "take it apart and clean it". First, see if it works...before you try to "fix it". You can clean it--and lube it--adequately for operation WITHOUT taking it apart. Good luck! Art (Houston) ------- Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2005 11:29:16 -0700 From: "Jason J" Subject: Re: Re: Ramways with rust Amen! 50% of the machines that get taken apart to clean them up end up being sold in pieces or scrapped. Wipe it down, lube it up and run it. Without doing that you will never know what you have. ScotchBrite ruins LOTS of machines. The grit gets everywhere and laps the ways into uselessness. ------- Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2005 06:28:20 -0000 From: "Art Volz" Subject: Square Hole Inserts for a...Re: Logan Handle "genestal1" wrote: > New to this group. Just recently aquired a Logan 8 inch. Missing a > couple of items. Curious if anyone has a handle on where to locate a > handle for the Logan. Has anyone constructed one? Any pictures, > dimentions or drawings would be helpful. Seen some posts on making > square holes, maybe that is an answer. Gene-- What size square hole crank handle do you need? Wholesale Tool-- http://www.wttool.com --has a number of various sized crank handles in the 10+ buck range plus shipping. If you wanna make your own, one way to make a square hole is to drill a round hole and then silver solder into it a square hole insert. Joe W. knows where to get these inserts--he told me once, but I forgot. Joe??? If you're rich, and the coins are just spillin' outta your pockets, buy the appropriate square hole drill tooling from Watts Brothers. Art ------- Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2005 08:14:03 -0600 From: J R Williams Subject: Re: Square Hole Inserts for a...Re: Logan Handle Art: I bought my "Square Hole Sleeves" from Reid supply but have used old sockets for square holes. The drive end gives the 1/4, 3/8 and 1/2 sizes. The standard 12 point sockets work for the other end. I turn down the od or bore the mounting hole to give several thousandths interference fit. It solves many problems. Joe W ------- Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2005 12:05:49 EST From: jmartin957x~xxaol.com Subject: Re: Square Hole Inserts for a...Re: Logan Handle Art: Reid Tool and others have the inserts, at least the three-sided ones. I've filed out a number of square holes, but have decided to make a tool holder for the shaper to do the next ones. I don't recall ever seeing one mentioned, but it should be easy to make up a tool post or tool holder to take a square bit end on. Bevel the bit back from one corner, and use it without side relief to punch the round hole out to square. Not all at once, but one corner at a time, with multiple cuts per corner. A 1/4" bit in a 1/2" hole should give plenty of room and still handle the stress. Might want to lock the clapper down. Anyone ever tried it? John Martin ------- Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2005 17:53:07 -0000 From: "R. Wade Brooks" Subject: Square Hole Inserts for a...Re: Logan Handle I am lucky enough to have both a filing machine and a shaper. I would probably file it out in the filing machine but I see no reason that a shaper wouldn't work (other than lack of the handle). Did you think of mounting a file in your tool holder? ------- Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2005 13:38:14 EST From: n8as1x~xxaol.com Subject: Re: Square Hole Inserts for a...Re: Logan Handle > If you wanna make your own, one way to make a square hole is to drill > a round hole and then silver solder into it a square hole insert. i routinely broach up to .455 sq.holes w/a flatened lathe toolbit (no clearance necessary, 90 deg. to axis ) ..just plain beat it thru a hole 1/32 larger & champhered ....heavy hammer (32oz+ ) & watch for chipping of bit if not using a brass hammer ...then use sq. file to provide any xtra relief best wishes docn8as ------- Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2005 19:44:33 -0000 From: "Tommy Ward" Subject: Square Hole Inserts for a...Re: Logan Handle Doc's got a good approach. Most blacksmiths know how to easily punch any shape of hole in steel, and a reasonably accomplished one would have no problem in forging a complete crank out of bar or rod stock. I've said it before - all machinists could benefit from some basic blacksmithing knowledge. To see how holes are punched with a hammer and drift, go to AnvilFire's website at: http://www.anvilfire.com and then click on the "iforge" tutorial section and proceed to sessions 63 and 64. Working hot metal is fun! Tommy Ward ------- Date: Fri, 17 Feb 2006 15:16:27 -0000 From: "Chris" Subject: South Bend Shaper - Countershaft Bushings In restoring my SB Shaper, I went to replace the Gits oiler on the countershaft Motor Cradle (Part #8 in the exploded parts diagram) since the top had been broken off and never replaced. I thought this was going to be an easy fix, but again it was not to be. I had order the correct oiler from McMaster Carr, and removing the old one went without incident. It was when I cleaned the hole to install the new oiler that I noticed it ended at the Bronze Bushing (#7), no hole went through to the Countershaft. Thinking that the bushing must have turned, I examined the other one on the Motor Cradle and found it to be the same - no hole. I still thought, I must be missing something, so I pulled the Countershaft and examined the bushings while still in the Motor Cradle, and still no evidence of any way for the oil to get to the Countershaft. I then removed one of the bushings, which was a tight push fit into the Motor Cradle, and still no evidence of any way for the oil to get to the Countershaft. What am I missing? Should there be a hole below the Gits oilers through the bushing? If so how large should it be? I just have a hard time believing that South Bend missed putting a way for oil to get to the Countershaft. The parts list does specify two different Countershaft part numbers (#5 - for 1/3 HP motors, & #36 - for 1/2 HP motors). Unfortunately it does not give shaft sizes, but I believe the only difference between the two parts is the length not the thickness, otherwise they would have had to specify different bushings, etc. The 1/2 HP shaft is longer possibly to accommodate a larger pulley for more shaper speeds? If you have experienced this issue with your machine, or can comment on how your oilers are set-up on your SB's, please reply so I can complete this part of the restoration. Thanks, Chris ------- Date: Fri, 17 Feb 2006 07:27:04 -0800 From: "Jason J" Subject: Re: South Bend Shaper - Countershaft Bushings I suspect the bushings are Oilite sintered bronze and being VERY porous don't need an oil hole. ------- Date: Fri, 17 Feb 2006 20:30:27 -0000 From: "Art Volz" Subject: Oilube Beariings--Re: South Bend Shaper - Countershaft Bushings For more informatiuon on Oilube type bearings--oil impregnated sintered bronze--see: http://www.loganact.com/tips/sleeve_bearings/index.htm Art ------- Date: Fri, 17 Feb 2006 23:13:20 -0000 From: "metalmill52" Subject: Re: South Bend Shaper - Countershaft Bushings Chris, I just restored a SB 7 inch shaper and noticed one side of the motor shaft squealed and got hot while running, despite plenty of oil in the cups (see recent post in last month or so). I probed into both oil cups and could not find any hole, even took the shaft apart for a visual inspection, no joy. I emailed the group and was advised there should be a hole so I just drilled an 1/8" hole straight through the cup and thru the bearing. Deburred inside of bearing, cleaned out thoroughly, reassembled, refilled oil cups and it works great now. Yes, oil does ooze out on the shaft and drip a little, but I make sure to refill each time and would much rather have this situation than no oil flow and a hot squealing bearing! I do understand the idea of a porous bronze allowing oil to flow to the shaft, but it wasn't happening on my machine, so I'm satisfied with this solution. Good luck with your machine! Bill C. Pensacola, FL ------- Date: Fri, 17 Feb 2006 22:42:08 EST From: CaptonZapx~xxaol.com Subject: Re: South Bend Shaper - Countershaft Bushings 2/17/2006, greerfamx~xxraex.com writes: > The bushing is probably made of Oilite bronze which will absorb oil > like a sponge from the Gits and bleed it onto the shaft surface > as needed. One other point on Oilite bushings. If they have set without being used for a number of years, the oil that was in between the nodules of brass/bronze can become oxidized, forming a goo. Remember the old grease in the old machine that was found in the barn, that was like clay? The oil in the bearing can do something similar. The thing to do then is to soak the bushing in lacquer thinner, MEK, or acetone for a few days, agitating occasionally, dry it with heat, then put it in a small container of oil, and heat it up to the point that the oil starts to smoke. Do this with an electric hot plate, because the fumes are flammable. Let the oil cool, and the bearing may be as good as new. Or not. After you use it for a while, you can tell if it is "oiling". Or go to a good bearing house and ask them for a new one. Few tool manufacturers used non standard bushings when they could buy ready made ones, and the bushings are made in standard sizes, ID and OD, and different lengths. They are tricky to machine, but can be filed for length easily. CZ ------- Date: Fri, 07 Apr 2006 00:48:56 -0000 From: "viscoyl" Subject: SB-7 Ram Hello: Only been reading the messages so far, but now I could use some advice about a problem with a 7 inch South Bend shaper. I have been trying to remove the ram so I can check to see if oil is flowing through the lubrication tube on the gib side, but I'm not sure exactly how it comes off. The gib started moving and making a clicking noise when the shaper was running, but when I tightened the gib screws enough to stop the movement, there seemed to be a lot of friction and the ram ways started getting hot. Oiling the ways by hand eliminated the heat build-up so I guessed there was no oil being pumped to the gib side. I think the oil pump is working because there is a good squirt of oil from the tubes that feed the gears and slider block. I finally took a thin piece of brass rod and a hammer and tapped the gib strip off, and thought I had found the trouble when I saw that the oil hole was plugged with dirt. However, there does not appear to be any opening for oil to reach the dovetail in the column casting. On looking closely, there is what looks like a brassy-colored spot directly opposite the gib oil hole when the gib is in position, so maybe something broke off in there? Probably I should have left the gib alone and concentrated on getting the ram off, but its too late for that now. I'm guessing that the ram would come off if I could loosen the rocker arm (part #74 in my diagram) and get the rocker cross shaft out of the way, but the screw that holds the rocker is on the bottom and seems impossible to reach, at least with an ordinary wrench. So where do I go from here? Any help appreciated. Mike ------- Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2006 06:31:00 -0500 From: "Daniel J. Stone" Subject: Re: SB-7 Ram Mike: When you drove the gib out you sheared off the oil tube that feeds the slide. These tubes are small brass cylinders pressed into the casting and extending through a hole in the gib. My SB 7 had the same problem and I replaced the brass tube with a small length of 1/8 copper tube; works fine. As to removing the ram, find out what size bolt holds the rocker to the cross shaft. I had to cut a wrench in half to loosen my bolt; I believe the factory used a 5/16 square head screw. The supplied wrench was just short enough to get a small swing on the bolt, that is the only way you're going to get the ram off. I was lucky in that the cross shaft was not too buggered up and came out pretty easily once I loosened up that well protected bolt. Good luck. Dan ------- Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2006 07:56:33 -0500 From: Christopher V Becker Subject: Re: SB-7 Ram Mike: I'm afraid you have already gone too far without getting needed information on how to disassemble the ram from your machine properly. First you need to get the SB manual. You access a copy on the following web site http://wewilliams.net/SBLibrary.htm. Down near the bottom of the list of manuals you will find the one on SB Shapers. Open it up and go to page 27 where it will tell you how to completely remove the ram from the machine, which I suspect you will now need to do. I suspect that by removing the ram gib(s) the way you did you have sheared off the copper oil tube that goes through the gib to deliver oil to the ram. Start by removing the side oil reservoir cover and trace the four oil lines from the oil pump manifold - a brass block attached above the oil pump. There should be four lines carrying oil to 1) the bull gear, 2) the rocker arm on the from of the bull gear, 3 & 4) an oil line should go to each of the ram ways - they go into the main casting about midway between the ends of the ram, even with the V-way of the ram on either side. You can easily see this from looking inside the oil reservoir, but what you can't see until you remove the ram is that they also go through the gibs to the ram on either side. You must remove the ram first by following the procedure on P-27 of the manual and then pull the gibs straight out, not slide them out as you did. Depending on the age of your machine you may have copper tubes just pushed into the holes on the casting in which case you may be able to push a little more into the hole for the part that was possibly sheared off. Newer machines have a brass fitting pressed into the casting and the copper tube soldered into the fitting. I have never been able to remove one of these, nor have I ever need too, yet. So good luck and let us know how you make out. Take pictures if you can, and upload them to the Shaper Picture web site for future reference. Chris ------- Date: Sun, 09 Apr 2006 00:26:29 -0000 From: "viscoyl" Subject: Update On SB-7 Ram Problem Daniel & Chris, thanks for the replies. I took a look at that Williams site but apparently the SB shaper pages have been removed. Since the original factory data wasn't available, I decided to try something else. After a lot of contortions, I managed to get a wrench onto that setscrew (it's a 5/16" square head) on the bottom of the rocker arm and loosen it enough that I could drive out the cross shaft, which allowed the rocker to drop out of the way, and the ram to easily slide off. For future reference, here is what I found out about the oil tube assembly: the oil line that feeds the gib side of the ram way is soldered into a steel right-angle fitting that is pressed into a hole in the side of the casting. This fitting can be removed by tapping a thin screwdriver blade around the fitting between the casting and the fitting base, and carefully prying it out of the hole. It looks like it is made of copper at first glance, but a magnet showed it was steel and it will stand up to a certain amount of prying if you don't get too rough with it. Oil is fed through this hole into another series of smaller holes and eventually to the ram through a hole in the gib. The outer end of the gib side hole is sealed against leakage with a short length of 1/8" rod, which I drove out with a hammer and a piece of 1/8" welding rod to remove the stub of the oil tube that went through the gib hole. This was replaced with a piece of 1/8" copper tube and the outer hole was sealed with a piece cut from the same 1/8" welding rod that I drove out the old oil tube stub with. With the main oil lines back in place, I turned the machine on to check for oil flow and was surprised to see that there was no oil reaching either ram way. And this is the irritating part --- apparently whoever had the shaper before me had altered the oil valve adjustment screw settings and cut off the flow. All of this nonsense could have been avoided if I had thought to check those two screws, but my copy of the "How To Run A Metalworking Shaper" manual says that they are set at the factory and don't ordinarily need re-adjusting and so I took their word for it. Anyhow, when those two screws were properly set there was a good flow of oil to both ram ways. So far, so good. Then after I replaced the ram and was trying to reinstall the rocker arm cross shaft, I discovered that it didn't seem to want to go back into the rocker arm hole. I suppose they pressed the shaft in at the factory, but a hammer removed it for me so naturally I tried to hammer it back in place, but it would only go a little way into the rocker hole and then seemed to jam. I didn't want to risk breaking something by hammering too hard, and after taking an educated guess that maybe the shaft was slightly enlarged at one end, I tried putting it in from the other side and this time it stuck in the bearing bushing on that side and pushed it out into the oil sump. The bushing is now split down its length and I will somehow have to replace it. I miked the shaft and there is a variation of about 1/2 thousandth diameter between the two ends, so possibly I tried to drive the wrong end into the split bushing. I have a lathe and probably can make a new bushing if I can't buy one, but what do I do about replacing the rocker arm onto the shaft? Am I trying to do it all wrong? Any suggestions appreciated. MIke ------- Update on the Adept number 2 rebuild. [Metal_Shapers] Posted by: "biggles8au" biggles8aux~xxyahoo.com Date: Tue Jul 25, 2006 9:03 am (PDT) Hi Guys and especially Art, I'm just back onto the group mailing list today and I noted some more good advice on disassembling shapers. Fortunately I have the simplest one made and after Art's warning I sent it to a machine shop where they understand shapers. They have two big shapers that they have rebuilt and use, and they have surface ground the table and the ram and slide for me. I have had the castings powder coated prior to the grinding but it's still in pieces. I'm separated by a few thousand miles from the pieces as I accepted a job in China. Not far from the Shanghai surplus shaper secret society of sacrificial furnaces. I actually visited the biggest steel plant in China in May (Bao Gang in Shanghai)and they expect to double its size to 50 million tonnes of iron and steel products within 10 years. Maintaining the theme of this is a good place to get sound advice, I used the excuse of buying a bigger machine to repair the first one (as suggested in a previous message in this group)and I saved a beautiful Aussie made Douglas 10 and 1/2 inch shaper from misuse and rust. It's currently sitting in a very nice shed some thousands... etc, so it won't get rusty or mis-used or even used till I get back to Australia. I had the day off today as I've been working a heap of extra time and went to Shanghai to see if I could track down a newly released CNC version of the 9" by 20" lathe. Very frustrating as the marketing manager of the import-export agency would not sell me one or tell me where I could get one or organise another local dealer to sell me one. My interest in this particular unit has to do with its price of about USD 4000. The specs and photos show a nice usable compact machine that I can learn on, and make something useful with. http://www.made-in-china.com/china- products/productviewXeoJnFxrIQtP/CNC-Mini-Lathe.html Doing the research I came across 2 current manufacturers of big shapers in China. They appear to be gear driven but I know a lot more about mining than shapers so I'll attach a link. http://sjmc.en.alibaba.com/product/50113707/50516657/Machine_Tools/Sh aping_Machine.html http://www.made-in-china.com/showroom/polytop0755/product- detailDInEpjQHmJBa/China-Shaping-Machine-PTBA60100-.html Perhaps these factories make new shaper vises as well? ------- Re: Update on the Adept number 2 rebuild. Posted by: "Jack Vines" Jack.Vinesx~xxptpprograms.org Date: Tue Jul 25, 2006 9:32 am (PDT) Hi, biggles8au: The Chinese are only slightly more recalcitrant than the Aussies in that regard. Have had the same difficulty in both places trying to get back to the source and buy machinery and parts. Like you, I have visited factories and the exporters in China and been told there is no way to sell me the machine in front of us on the floor. The CNC lathe I was looking at sold for $10,000 in the US and my Chinese associate said he heard them saying in Chinese they sold them to the US company for $3,000. Thnx, jv. ------- Re: Cross Feed Ratchet Posted by: "John A. Landry" gyropilotx~xxautorotation.net Date: Wed Sep 20, 2006 7:14 am (PDT) On 20 Sep 2006, Ed Godwin said: >There needs to be a little anti-rotation drag on the cross-feed screw >for the pawl in the ratchet casing to lift up against its spring >pressure. With no drag, the pawl just pushes against the tooth and >rotates the cross-feed screw back and forth. Ed is exactly right. It's just like when using a common socket wrench to remove a nut... once the nut is loose, the socket wrench will cease ratcheting unless some drag is applied to the socket via finger pressure. On my particular Porter-Cable shaper, sometimes just the weight of having a vise and work piece mounted on the table will supply sufficient drag to the cross feed screw so the ratchet will function properly. One other suggestion Grant, is to take the ratchet assembly apart, clean it well with solvent, and lube it. It could have old dried out lubricant gumming things up. Also, you may need to gently re-sharpen the tip of the ratchet pawl to better engage the cogged wheel on the cross feed screw. I'll bet that pawl is pretty worn on the tip. Have fun, John L. ------- Re: Cross Feed Ratchet Posted by: "J R Williams" jrwillmsx~xxhal-pc.org Date: Wed Sep 20, 2006 7:47 am (PDT) John L: On my Logan shaper I have added a fiber washer to the feed screw system to provide "friction" to the system to permit the ratchet to work. That solved the feed problem. Joe W ------- Re: removing a shaper table, also couple of misc questions [Metal_Shapers] Posted by: "Ed Godwin" eng4turnsx~xxyahoo.com Date: Fri Sep 22, 2006 1:53 pm (PDT) > To bring this "Art-tangent" back on track, once I have the surface > plate I can begin to think seriously about the proper sequence on > scraping the Shape-Rite back into alignment and fit. Where is the > datum point for a shaper? What is the most practical sequence to > follow? -Mike Mike: I know you asked Mario the question so I hope you both will forgive me for responding. Short answer is probably column dovetails. Keep reading if you want the gory details of my experience. I can tell you how I scraped my Porter-Cable but I cannot guarantee it was the "right" way or the most efficient way but it came out just fine after a long and laborious process. I do have "Machine Tool Reconditioning" and have been using it in the scraping of a SB 9 lathe but then the shaper came along. I figured the shaper would be an easy project for a beginner and a good learning experience to prepare me for finishing the lathe. Well, it was easier than a lathe but it wasn't easy. This old PC had hour-glassed ram ways with deep scratches, slightly sway- backed column dovetails, worn crossfeed ways, and worn table foot way. I selected the column ways to start with since the column ways were the least worn and I could find some good unworn spots. Since the column ways are the least likely to be severely worn, it's probably the best place to start. I made sure that every other worn area had enough "meat" to allow me to bring things back into alignment. Tools: I have 9x12 granite surface plate, the usual complement of DTIs, a superb 16" long x 2" wide cast-iron reference flat that I picked up on EBAY for a song, and a couple of granite reference rectangles about 6" x 1" x 2" (EBAY, again), and a 10" master precision level. Plus the usual machinist right angles up to 6". What I did not have that would have made the job faster and easier were: a 12" to 16" machinist's right angle, a granite or cast iron dovetail reference/spotting tool. First thing I did was try to assess where, how, and how much this thing was worn out of alignment. The first thing I discovered was that this shaper was not all that aligned when new, at least not when compared to a good lathe. How did I know? Measurements across the unworn portions of the column dovetails at top and bottom of the columns showed about a 0.002" difference by measuring across pins with a 12" dial caliper. I also found that the top of the table was not flat (set it on the surface plate and it wobbled). Put the table on the vertical mill, indicated in the ways and the sides, biased toward the ways, and fly cut the top flat, then scraped flat on the surface plate so it would be a future reference surface. These were not the only poor factory alignments I found in the machine but the others don't bear on this conversation. Scraped the dovetails on the saddle until they were flat and parallel and used this as a width template for scraping in the column dovetails. Check and countercheck with precision level to make sure I don't wind up tilting the planes of the column dovetails. Set the shaper on its back to do this so the level could be used. Note, I used a 6" Starrett machinist's level for the first rough work and then switched to the more difficult-to-use precision level for final work. Then corrected the swayback in the table ways on the saddle. Tough here to keep the ways at right angles to the saddle dovetails. I had to assemble table to saddle, saddle to column, with gibs, mount a DTI, and traverse table left to right (remember I've got a known flat surface on the table?) and then disassemble to correct. Over and over, again. Really the most time-consuming part of the process. OK, got the saddle working on the now good column dovetails, got a set of scraped in table ways on the saddle and scraped in table ways on the table, got a flat surface on the table that is now moving in a known truly flat plane left to right. What don't I know at this point? I don't know that the left-to-right horizontal plane is truly perpendicular to a line drawn vertically straight down from the ram. Did I care? Yes if off a lot but no if it's just off a little because I can compensate when the ram ways are scraped. Some quick measurements using all the tools in the kit to verify only: Am I off a little or a lot? I was off a little so I could continue with no rework. Okay, now I've got the table assembled to saddle, saddle to column, all with new gibs, nicely snugged and oiled. Affix a DTI to the table, traverse and indicate the table foot way. Start scraping, using levels and cast-iron reference flat for spotting. This was a fun and easy job of scraping! Next up is ram ways and ram. Bottom of ram flats are scraped against the surface plate reference, making sure they stay square with the clapper head mounting surface. (I found this squareness to be way off initially, so I corrected it.) Again, pretty easy job but it's necessary to assemble often and indicate against the table top. The only problem I wound up with was that the linkage block that fits in the slot at the top of the ram for adjusting the ram bears a little too tightly against one side of the slot. A light skim of the block on the mill took care of that. So, I got done with this after probably 80 manhours spent actually planning, measuring and scraping. More hours were spent fabricating gibs, bushings, cross-feed nuts and screws, etc. Could a more experienced, smarter fellow with better tools do it faster? You bet? Better? I think I did a pretty good job in terms of quality - it's very smooth and my measurements of actual jobs seem to be support a claim for accuracy and precision. I think how a job like this is attacked is mostly a function of two things: Where's the wear? and What measurement tools are available? I know for a fact that my dovetails are now not the perfectly exact angle since I did not have a gauge. I could have made a gauge but I deliberately did not. My thinking was, what do I care whether the angle is off 1/2 degree from nominal, so long as the male and female dovetails mate properly? I hope this lengthy screed answered your question. Ed in Florida ------- Uneven depth of cut problem [Metal_Shapers] Posted by: "hateful_howard" hateful_howardx~xxyahoo.ca Date: Sat Mar 10, 2007 9:31 pm ((PST)) I have been cutting down a 4.5" wide block of CRS. When I measure the thickness of the material after taking off about half an inch, I find the thickness of the block against the jaw at the ram end is pretty much even in thickness but at the opposite end it is about 13 thou thicker. The machine is a 14" Elliott Invicta. I squared everything up beforehand with a dial indicator according to the shaper books I have. The table has a front support and it is contacting the support. I tried to slide a .002" shim under it and it won't go. I tightened up the gibs on the table and that helped a bit. To get this situation it seems either the tool is pushing the table down or the ram is being lifted thogh I don't see any upward motion. Is it possible the ram gibs need tightening? Anyone have ideas or experiences? ------- Re: Uneven depth of cut problem Posted by: "ole guy" oleguy2000x~xxyahoo.com Date: Sun Mar 11, 2007 4:14 am ((PDT)) Hi Howard, I ran into the same problem with my 12" Sheldon. It ended up being my vice. Once I "shimed" it I can cut a 10" stroke within .001. oleguy2000 ------- Uneven depth of cut problem Posted by: "Bill Slugg" billsluggx~xxhotmail.com Date: Sun Mar 11, 2007 8:23 am ((PDT)) Hateful_Howard: You squared up under no-load condition. You made a cut, and the outboard end of the block was thicker. Either the ram was rising or the bed was dropping. A dial indicator can be rigged to see if the bed is dropping. - Dial to a nice flat spot on the bed so the traverse won't affect it. - Dial indicator must be mounted independently of the shaper. To see what the ram is doing: - Tape a mirror to the head of the ram. - Mirror should point in the direction of the stroke - Set a laser pointer across the room pointing at the mirror - The reflection should appear on the wall opposite. - Watch if it moves up and down. ------- Uneven depth of cut problem Posted by: "hateful_howard" hateful_howardx~xxyahoo.ca Date: Sun Mar 11, 2007 10:29 pm ((PDT)) Thanks guys. I'll give the mirror thing a try just to see what that tells me and go from there. If the reflected dot stays put then the problem is with the table and vise. I lined things up according to the book Shapers by Emanuele Stieri. ------- Uneven depth of cut problem Posted by: "speedphoto300" speedphoto300x~xxyahoo.com Date: Mon Mar 12, 2007 6:12 am ((PDT)) Also, check the tightness of the column (vertical) gibs. Joe ------- Re: Uneven depth of cut problem Posted by: "n8as1x~xxaol.com" Date: Mon Mar 12, 2007 1:47 pm ((PDT)) if u dont take the slack out of screw by turing deeper than needed & then backing up to what is needed AND locking the slide, it will probably drop & dig in /out as my 7 in atlas does ( the 16 in S&M does not ., at least w/ the doc i have used). best wishes docn8as ------- drive to cross feed [Metal_Shapers] Posted by: "edwinmiller01" edwinmiller01x~xxyahoo.co.uk Date: Sun Mar 18, 2007 12:12 pm ((PDT)) I have an Elliott 18MR shaper which works fine except for the drive to the feed which is totally enclosed. Is there a clutch or some safety feature that I am unaware of? No matter which position I place the feed selector lever the output shaft to the cross feed will not turn. Please can someone advise me. ------- Re: drive to cross feed Posted by: "hateful_howard" hateful_howardx~xxyahoo.ca Date: Tue Mar 20, 2007 12:28 am ((PDT)) I have the Elliott 14" 2MR. If I am reading right you have no power cross feed. If that is the case check if your sheer pin is broken. If your machine is like mine then it is on the right side on a short shaft underneath the shaft with the feed rate selector lever. The shaft from your direction shifter comes 90 degrees from it and is attached to it in a housing. The sheer pin is in a small hole on the end cap (you can see the hole) and goes parallel to the shaft. The end cap is held on by a tapered pin that should be evident on the end of the shaft. Tap out this tapered pin and take the cap off and you should find the pieces of the sheer pin. It is a simple fix and the sheer pin is thinner than you would expect. I think I use 3/32" drills as sheer pins. ------- Re: drive to cross feed Posted by: "J R Williams" jrwillmsx~xxhal-pc.org Date: Tue Mar 20, 2007 6:39 am ((PDT)) Howard: Shear Pins should be made of "soft" steel and not from Drill stock. The idea is for the pin to fail. Common nails make good stock for "shear pins" JRW ------- Re: drive to cross feed Posted by: "edwinmiller01" edwinmiller01x~xxyahoo.co.uk Date: Tue Mar 20, 2007 3:04 pm ((PDT)) Thanks Howard, I think the problem lies deeper. The shear pin is still intact but the short lower shaft on which it fits, under the speed selector, is not turning at all. I think there must be a major problem lurking within the drive housing. I will just have to dismantle it and take a closer look. Many thanks, Edwin ------- More progress on the Springfield shaper. [Metal_Shapers] Posted by: "Jim B." btdtrfandmwx~xxcomcast.net Date: Sun Apr 22, 2007 7:35 pm ((PDT)) This week I machined the two thrust washers to take the thrust roller bearings and revisited the drive screw problem. The last 5 pictures here Show this work: http://www.flickr.com/photos/eeengineer/?saved=1 The last one is a picture of what the shaper should look like. The thrust washers arrived form McMaster's and were embedded into the thrust washers. The smaller one is the original Springfield washer just bored out and cleaned up. No surface seemed to be true so I glued the bore to a tight fitting piece of ground stock with Superglue and bored the step (true?) to the bore. I then faced all the other surfaces to the bore and the step. The Superglue bond is then broken by heating with a propane torch. When installed there is NO axial play in the drive screw. I installed the old nut, which is half worn through, and the saddle moves nicely with about 1/8 of a turn of backlash in the NEW handle (obtained at great expense). This pretty much replicates the original Springfield handle. I Included a picture of an original Springfield for reference. I now need to make a new nut. I have failed miserably so far. I am also rethinking the whole approach. My plan was to use the old nut and silver braze in a new core. I have purchased a length of cored bronze from ENCO ($18 for 12" you get three tries of the nut). This is approximately 1 1/4 OD and 3/4 Id . I planned to turn the od to 1 3/16 and bore the old nut to fit then braze the two. I started this a year ago and that, in part, led to the purchase of the "New" heavy 10. At this point I have reworked the initial nut, which I am calling a prototype, several times. I have the major diameter of the thread at 1.011. The screw is 1.000. The minor diameter is 0.875. The screw is 0.740. However the nut seems to be a force fit and the screw seems to be bottoming on the major diameter. Remember this is a square thread. You need clearance on the major and minor diameters and a good fit on the sides. However, since the fit seems to be so critical, I wonder if the brazing, after turning the thread is the way to go. Perhaps I should buy the next size cored bronze (1 3/8 od ) which however is $29 a length and then buy a piece of 1/2" by 1 1/2 bras and machine a round groove (which would require a 1 3/8 convex cutter, this I don't have and haven't found (yet) on e-Bay). 1 foot of brass would cost an other $30 from On-line Metals and the cutter would be in the $20 range. Alternate plan "C" would be to bore the old nut and braze in a blank and then thread the assembly. But first I need to make one good nut from the stock I have. Next try I am going to turn to OD first, using the new steady rest, cut the turned blank off, chuck it in the 4 jaw, I can get it to within 0.001 and then bore the ID and turn the threads. Any suggestions or insights are VERY welcome. Jim B. NOTE TO FILE: Jim made a correction to the screw dimension in a follow up message (and the corrected new figure is now in the text above). "Correction by: "btdtrfandmw" btdtrfandmwx~xxcomcast.net Date: Sun Apr 22, 2007 7:52 pm ((PDT)) The OD of the screw is 1.000 not 1.011. This results in +/- 0.005 radial play in the nut. Jim B." ------- Re: More progress on the Springfield shaper. Posted by: "David G. LeVine" dlevinex~xxspeakeasy.net Date: Sun Apr 22, 2007 8:23 pm ((PDT)) Jim wrote: >Any suggestions or insights are VERY welcome. Moglice. Yes, there are filled two part castables which do a great job, BUT you must get a thick coating of mold release or they bind. Moglice is but one I have looked at, http://www.moglice.com/ but Loctite http://tds.loctite.com/tds5/docs/FORMSTRK-EN.pdf makes one and I am sure there are others. David G. LeVine Nashua, NH 03060 ------- NOTE TO FILE: There is a great deal of info on the use of Moglice (or any similar product) to remove slop for worn nut/screw fit situations in the file here called Sherline Mill Backlash. ------- Re: More progress on the Springfield shaper. Posted by: "BWMSBLDRx~xxPeoplePC.com" Date: Mon Apr 23, 2007 7:05 am ((PDT)) Jim B., the easy/sleezy way to fix the nut requires that the screw not be too badly worn. If that is the case you can coat an unworn portion of the screw with soot from a candle flame and tin the inside of the worn nut with a thin film of solder. Then install the nut on the screw, wedge it on centrally, and carefully fill the nut with solder. Tell yourself that you are "rebabbiting the nut!" When cool careful twisting and oiling will move the nut on the screw with a tight fit. I have done this on an Atlas 7" shaper and on the crossfeed of my Atlas 12" lathe. For me the fix lasts 10 to 15 years! Bill in Boulder "Engineering as an Art Form!" ------- Re: More progress on the Springfield shaper. Posted by: "kevkeller2000" kevkellerx~xxearthlink.net Date: Fri Apr 27, 2007 1:48 pm ((PDT)) Bill: That's a great idea. I tried it yesterday on my compound slide nut. I ended up using an acetylene flame to blacken the screw. I used plumbing flux and solder. I fluxed the nut, used a propane torch to heat, and got some solder on the inside threads but it didn't cover very well. I ended up putting the screw in and trying to get more solder in but not sure if I was able to get more in. I did get enough if to take up a lot of the play anyway. Any recommendations to my technique? Thanks, Kevin ------- Re: More progress on the Springfield shaper. Posted by: "BWMSBLDRx~xxPeoplePC.com" Date: Fri Apr 27, 2007 4:47 pm ((PDT)) Nothing beats actual usage! If it wears out in six weeks then try again. If it lasts 10 years then it was better than it looked!! When I did it I first tinned the nut and then installed it on a smoked, unworn, section of thread and ran the solder in then. Bill in Boulder ------- Re: More progress on the Springfield shaper. Posted by: "Richard Sutcliffe" ras1x~xxuniserve.com Date: Tue Apr 24, 2007 12:04 am ((PDT)) Hi Jim B: What you are doing with the cored bronze is almost the same as what I did for an 18" Butler. As I recall this machine had the nut trapped between two ears on the cross slide saddle with a tab silver soldered in a groove to prevent the nut turning with the screw. This was for a high school shop, and I produced the new nut on the shop equipment, namely a 7" Southbend. I bored the minor diameter a few thousandths larger than the maximum measured diameter of the screw; as I recall there was remarkably little wear for a 40 year old machine that had see industrial use until we acquired it. I then ground the toolbit using the information in Machinery Handbook for the thread size. With all the measurements taken, and the material bored I went back to the shop one evening, so there would be no distractions, and cut the thread. I had enough material for two nuts, but got it first try, although there was about a quarter turn of back lash. Because it was a non standard pitch I had to leave the half nut engaged and run the carriage back after each pass. The hard part was keeping track of the cross slide feed at the start of each pass. Oh yeah, it was a left hand thread to add to the fun. When I left ten years later the machine was still going strong. Just take your time, see if you need to fit the new nut into old one, and look at it as challenge well met when you have succeeded. Have fun - it's a hobby Dick ------- Re: More progress on the Springfield shaper. Posted by: "Jim B." btdtrfandmwx~xxcomcast.net Date: Fri Apr 27, 2007 5:55 pm ((PDT)) Since the nut has been thoroughly coated with oil for many years it is important to get it clean first. Soak it in a volatile solvent. TCE would be good if you can still get it. Try Acetone otherwise. A good detergent might be useful, Heated TSP would be my first choice. Rinse, blow dry. Next the tinning. HD sells a flux that contains fine tin particles. It's grey in color. I like that. Heating it. I don't like the use of a flame. It tends to cook the flux and nothing sticks. If you have a laboratory hot plate, they work well. Just let the part heat up on high and you can get it hot enough to melt the solder. I have assembled many BeCu spring fingers without taking the temper out of the fingers using this technique. They are usually 1000 to 1500 Watts. More then the normal soldering iron and no flame. Then get into the inside with a small diameter flux cored wire solder and coat everything. While still hot pick it up with a pair of pliers and snap it down to shake off the excess solder. Now from this point you are on your own I don't know how to get the solder down the threads. I guess, as much as I dislike it you need to heat the middle with a flame. Then since the solder moves to the hottest point it should wick there. I would still preheat on the hotplate. Jim B. ------- Springfield Progress for WE 04-28-2007 Posted by: "Jim B." btdtrfandmwx~xxcomcast.net Date: Mon Apr 30, 2007 8:00 am ((PDT)) The Springfield has two arms that are involved in the rocker feed mechanism. There is a large cast-iron one which is pivoted to the vertical moving part of the saddle and a smaller control one which goes to the rocker. The CI one rotates a second gear which causes the control arm to always have a fixed distance as the saddle moves up and down. I do not have the control arm and the Cast iron arm is broken and half missing. This week I fabbed the control arm. Pictures attached. The arm is 7/16 air hardening Drill rod. The ends are 1". I turned the OD of the ends to size, drilled to the nearest undersize 1/64 and then bored the id to size. I parted them part way off and put a 45 degree chamfer and finished parting. Going to the Mill I bored a 7/16 spot face (had to buy an end mill on eBay, turned out to be LH but that doesn't matter). Then bored 1/4 (4 flute endmill) by either 0.125 or 0.090 deep. I measured the bores and turned steps on the 7/16 rod so it was a slight press fit. This made it self-jigging for the Silver Brazing operation. Seems to have come out OK. In retrospect I should have made the thickness oversize and milled it after brazing and I should have left the ID undersize and reamed it after brazing. Jim B. ------- got a shaper problem [Metal_Shapers] Posted by: "Jessie" rebel307x~xxbellsouth.net Date: Sat Sep 29, 2007 6:01 am ((PDT)) Hi all, I just joined up. About a year ago I bought a Walcott shaper. There's no information on the net about a Walcott shaper mfd. by the Jackson Shaper Company of Jackson Michigan. That info is cast into the side, no serial number or any other markings I have found. When I got it, it was locked up. I figured that out though. The input shaft was seized into its bushing. I got it working and have used it a little. There is a bumping sound coming from inside on certian stroke lengths. Also waves appear towards the end of the cut stroke. I got to thinking maybe there's slack in the crank pin and its adjustment mechanism. I pulled the bull wheel out and the whole crank assy. On close inspection, there's about .030 slop in it. I don't figure that's enough to cause a good bumping sound or even be alarmed about. I have tried shaking the drag link (I think that's what it's called) and it's tight. I have been sitting here thinking it may be the actual bull wheel slopping back and forth in its bushing. That's a little hard to believe though; the bearing surface is about 6in diameter and something like 8in long (it's a 16in shaper). It would take massive abuse and running a few years without oil to probably wear that thing to where it's really loose. In fact, the bearing surface looks really good, mirror finish on it. With it all togather, there's probably somewhere around .050 slack at the most. The cut lengths I get the bump and waves at is somewhere around 4 to 6 inches. I put a fixture plate on the table and planed it to the machine and the waves don't show up on the cut; it's about 16in. There's a hole in the side where you can see in through a hole on the drag link and see the end of the crank pin to oil it. I got someone to turn the input shaft by hand while I was watching through the hole and you can see the crank pin actually jump at certain points in its revolution. I am out of ideas other then take all the slack I can out of it. Everything is smooth other then in those certian points, towards the end of the cut stroke and the end of the return stroke. Well close to the end. Jessie Selmer Tn. ------- Re: got a shaper problem Posted by: "David G. LeVine" dlevinex~xxspeakeasy.net Date: Sat Sep 29, 2007 7:42 am ((PDT)) I am hardly expert, but could there be an issue with the ways on the ram binding? David G. LeVine Nashua, NH 03060 ------- Re: shaper stuff Posted by: "speedphoto300" speedphoto300x~xxyahoo.com Date: Sat Sep 29, 2007 11:36 pm ((PDT)) .035 play in the crank pin is .034 too much. Ditto for the ram vertical. The crank pin play will give you the two clunks, 180 degrees apart. Just my two cents. Joe ------- Re: shaper stuff Posted by: "ED MAISEY" holmes_ca_2000x~xxyahoo.com Date: Sun Sep 30, 2007 7:51 am ((PDT)) Joe, that would be my diagnosis too. Edmund ------- Re: shaper stuff Posted by: "Jessie" rebel307x~xxbellsouth.net Date: Sun Sep 30, 2007 12:23 pm ((PDT)) Joe: How do I get the slop out of the crank pin. You can tighten the bolts any. Whoever made it some 100 years ago took a center punch and deformed the ends of the bolts where they couldn't work loose; you also can't loosen them. Jessie ------- Re: shaper stuff Posted by: "Jessie" rebel307x~xxbellsouth.net Date: Sun Sep 30, 2007 3:03 pm ((PDT)) > .035 play in the crank pin is .034 too much. Ditto for the ram > vertical. The crank pin play will give you the two clunks, 180 degrees > apart. Just my two cents. Wouldn't that slack be taken out at the beginning of the stroke and not about 3/4 the way through the cut? That's where the bump and the hangup on the ram is? I am going to try to take the top gib clamps off and loosen the side gib and see if the ways are hanging. But, come to think of it, slack would be taken out at the beginning of the cut and as the wheel goes around slack in the opposite direction would again be present on the other side of the wheel. How can I get the slack out of it? The crank pin is actually tight in the crank block. And the block is tight in the rocker arm. The only slack is that screw and slide assy on the bull wheel where the stroke length is adjusted. There are no gibs on that; that is adjustable. What is there has been locked down by the builders because they took punches and deformed the ends of the bolts where they can't come loose. I thought about drilling through the punch marks, but then there's the 2 nuts on the end of the screw that take out the slack. Those are also deformed and can't be loosened up. Jessie ------- Re: shaper stuff Posted by: "speedphoto300" speedphoto300x~xxyahoo.com Date: Sun Sep 30, 2007 6:43 pm ((PDT)) All that peening and center punching was pretty common in the days before Loctite. Sometimes drilling out the deformed part works, sometimes a die grinder is needed. And lastly brute force, less destructive if nuts are involved. Slack in shaper mechanisms accumulates and adds up, a little here, a little there and you have noise and ridges or waves in the finish. Any slack in the pin, block, the adjustment slide you mentioned, or the pivot pins at the end of the crank arm will cause trouble. Most of the time you can make new parts, or replace bushings. The goal is to get clearances down. If the ram is worn (it often winds up with an "hourglass" shape) then scraping is needed. Then again, it also depends on the use you have planned; most people like the fine finish you get from a shaper, and close part fits are needed for that. Joe ------- Re: shaper stuff Posted by: "Jessie" rebel307x~xxbellsouth.net Date: Sun Sep 30, 2007 7:22 pm ((PDT)) Thanks Joe, I tried scraping once; it didn't come out too good. I was thinking about getting a local shop that had a big grinder to surface grind the ways back right. I don't know yet though; they might not affect things too much; the finish the machine makes would be pretty good after I get the slack out of the crank. Jessie ------- shaper bull gear Posted by: "Jessie" rebel307x~xxbellsouth.net Date: Sun Sep 30, 2007 5:46 pm ((PDT)) Ok, after some thought, someone told me a lil slack on the crank pin assy is multiplied by the rocker arm. That makes sense as the pin is about half way between the ram and the bottom drag link. I figure I could take the slack out. I am putting the pic as an attachment on this messege. In the picture you can see one side of the slide is bolted on. If I could get that off, I would mill some off the back side of that and tighten up the side play. The end play on that screw and the bolts there could tighten the whole thing up really well. Problem is, look in the pic, I will have to drill those bolts out on the back side and maybe get them out. Also those 2 big nuts are messed up too and I can't get them apart; the nuts are peined together and on the top one, it's peined to the threads. Anyone got any ideas? Jessie ------- Re: got a shaper problem Posted by: "metalmill52" waclearyx~xxcox.net Date: Mon Oct 1, 2007 6:02 pm ((PDT)) Jessie: Sounds like you have your machine apart already and that may be where the fix will be found. Possibly to help you and others with the same problem, I thought I'd offer some of my own Trial and Error experience. Mine is a 7 inch South Bend, pics in the Bill C file folder. First check the table supports are tight and the table is square to the ram action. Next, check the stroke of the ram, third look at the total tool overhang. My shaper came with one of those cool adjustable tool holders and I started out using a tiny 1/4" bit, stuck way out, with the tool slide and clapper cranked way up (I know some of you guys are laughing now - bet ole Art is!). Got that all sorted aout and got a much better finish. Oh yeah, check the feed direction - (Art's laughing more now...) As a further note about tooling, check the Links section of the group for the "Artful Bodger" website. Very good scoop here, especially the use of a (relatively) big bit directly held in the lantern toolpost. I now use a 3/8" by 3/4" bit for general planing type work, just as shown on the website - works great. Have fun and let us know what turns out to be the problem. Bill C. ------- shaper progress,,,well some [was Re: got a shaper problem] Posted by: "Jessie" rebel307x~xxbellsouth.net therebel344 Date: Sat Oct 6, 2007 10:53 pm ((PDT)) Remember I took my shaper bull gear out and I has the slack in the pin but all the bolts were peened so they couldnt come out. I took a carbide center drill in my cordless drill and that drilled the peen marks out perfectly. The bolts were a little hard to break loose but they didn't put up much of a fuss coming out. I don't see why I couldn't reuse them. I can get to work on tightning it up now, and get my shaper back up and running. Jessie ------- need cross feed shaft for 8" Logan [Metal_Shapers] Posted by: "mstokeld1" mstokeld1x~xxyahoo.com Date: Wed Oct 17, 2007 9:52 am ((PDT)) Long story, but I screwed up the cross feed shaft on my Logan 8" shaper. Logan says they do not have any. Any ideas where I could get one? Barring me finding one, what material would need to be used if I had to make the shaft? THanks! Marc ------- Re: need cross feed shaft for 8" Logan Posted by: "Ed Godwin" eng4turnsx~xxyahoo.com Date: Wed Oct 17, 2007 12:33 pm ((PDT)) Marc; I made a new one for my Porer-Cable AS-7 (the little brother to your Logan 8) from water-hardening drill rod but did not harden it. Just ground the ACME tooth profile on a HSS cutter bit and spent a couple of hours at the lathe. I had already made a new bronze nut so I cut the screw to fit the nut. It's a lot easier to fiddle with external threading than internal particularly with an ACME or square thread. You can use almost anything for raw stock for this, CR, HR, drill rod, leaded free-machining steel, etc. Ed in Florida ------- Re: need cross feed shaft for 8" Logan Posted by: "Jim B" btdtrfandmwx~xxcomcast.net Date: Wed Oct 17, 2007 12:54 pm ((PDT)) Since I did not know what a cross feed "shaft" is I didn't answer. Now that I find it's the screw, I too made mine out of water hardening drill rod, unhardened. Mine was 1"-4 square LH. I have also used it for the screw on the down feed, 5/8-10 and the RAM feed 3/4-6 LH. If this is an ACME screw, there are several places that have ACME allthread. Look At MSC to start. Jim B. ------- Re: need cross feed shaft for 8" Logan Posted by: "Don Kinzer" dkinzerx~xxeasystreet.com Date: Wed Oct 17, 2007 1:12 pm ((PDT)) Unless you can find a donor machine from which to salvage one, you'll have to make one yourself. I have a Brodhead-Garrett J-Line (the predecessor to your Logan) that had its crossfeed screw, among other things, damaged in shipment. I made a new one using some 5/8-10 left-hand Acme threaded rod and some 5/8" drill rod spliced together. You can see some pictures on my webpage: http://tinyurl.com/utg9 or t http://www.kinzers.com/don/MachineTools/j-line_Shaper If you don't want to buy a full length of it, I believe that I have enough left to make several more. Contact me directly if you're interested. Don Kinzer ------- Re: need cross feed shaft for 8" Logan Posted by: "speedphoto300" speedphoto300x~xxyahoo.com Date: Wed Oct 17, 2007 5:34 pm ((PDT)) Stressproof (1144) is a good choice, it cuts easier than drill rod, and doesn't tend to warp. Very good wear characteristics as well. I used it to make the replacement feed screw on my Atlas. Joe ------- Re: Newly fixed up shaper [Metal_Shapers] Posted by: "Matthew Tinker" mattinkerx~xxyahoo.com Date: Thu Dec 6, 2007 2:44 am ((PST)) Michael Green wrote: > Just bragging, but I've posted a couple of pictures of my Elliott 10M on the shapers pix site. From what I can work out it is close to original livery, although I'm not sure about the name plate on the pedestal. Cuts nicely too... < Mike, I have an Elliot M10, the same grey! Just though I'd warn you about a common problem, which Pete Verbree (spelling) describes on his Alba (predecessor to the Elliot) rebuild and which I had. The stud on the ram position clamp has a tendency to rip out of the cast iron clamp. In use, the stud unscrews from the clamp instead of from the nut, then on tightening, the slack is taken up on the nut. In short, the stud works out and ends up stripping the thread, and can break the clamp. I think Loctite on the stud would be a good preventive measure. When mine broke, I did brazed the stud into the clamp, not very pretty, but it works very well! Matthew ------- Re: Newly fixed up shaper Posted by: "Michael Green" michaelrgreenx~xxozemail.com.au Date: Thu Dec 6, 2007 3:46 pm ((PST)) Thanks for the tip. I decided to loctite on reassembly as a precaution so it has not been in vain. I can't recall if the clamp is CI or steel. There was a severe (student induced I think) prang in its history which has resulted in the top of the bull gear breaking away and a machined from solid main arm replacing the original cast one. The clamp also looks machined from solid. Michael ------- Shape-Rite Info Needed [Metal_Shapers] Posted by: "Pasek Dennis Civ 520 SMXS/MXDEB" dennis.pasekx~xxhill.af.mil Date: Tue Feb 12, 2008 3:52 pm ((PST)) I have an 8" Shape-Rite model B with a damaged taper pin in the clapper box. Someone beat on the threaded end of the pin and mashed up the threads. I am looking for a way to repair the pin, possibly by rethreading the end and fitting on a threaded extension. Can someone measure the overall length and also the thread size of the pin for me? Thanks, Dennis ------- Re: Shape-Rite Info Needed Posted by: "Jon Brooks" jpbrooksapx~xxsbcglobal.net Date: Thu Feb 14, 2008 3:21 am ((PST)) Is that the one that the clapper pivots on? On mine it's about 4 inches long, with 3/8-16 on the threaded end. Jon ------- Re: Shape-Rite Info Needed Posted by: "Alan R. Lapp" alanlappx~xxlevelfive.com Date: Thu Feb 14, 2008 5:57 am ((PST)) The O.P. (original poster) mentioned that the pin was tapered. Why are clapper pivots tapered? ------- Re: Shape-Rite Info Needed Posted by: "Steve Obert" sobertx~xxsnet.net Date: Thu Feb 14, 2008 12:53 pm ((PST)) Looks like an easy way to get a really good fit on the pivot. Ream the hole with the taper pin reamer then remove the clapper and ream just a little more. You now have zero play on the ends of the pin and a small amount of clearance for the clapper to pivot on. Neat and renewable with either a little more reaming or the next size pin. Some have the pins with the nuts on them and some have just the plain taper pins. ------- Re: Shape-Rite Info Needed Posted by: "jmartin957x~xxaol.com" Date: Sat Feb 16, 2008 7:55 am ((PST)) In a message dated 2/16/08, dennis.pasekx~xxhill.af.mil writes: > According to my measurements, this might be a standard 1:48 taper pin of > 1/2" nominal size, so I might be able to thread the end of a stock item > to use as a replacement part. Or, I could just continue to use the > original as-is being careful to press in the pin for correct adjustment. > Might be able use wicking grade Locktite for retention at the thread end > if I'm careful. > The clapper box parts are all fitted together and numbered: box, > clapper, and pivot shoulder screw. > McMaster-Carr lists No.8 taper pins in 4" length that would be about $2+ > each. The trick would be finding them available by the individual > piece. Fastenal might have something. The only threaded standard stock > items I see are threaded on the large end to facilitate removal. > Thanks very much, Dennis I've seen pins as large as 8 or 10 in the box racks in local hardware stores. With taper pins, remember that larger is smaller as well. If you get a long 10, you may find that you can cut off the small end and use that as a 9 or an 8. The taper on the pins is small enough that it's self-holding. Tap it into a clean bore in good shape and you won't need any Loctite or a retaining nut to keep it in place. And I would definitely tap it in - use a press on it and you just might develop enough pressure to split the casting. If you see it working out over time, tap it in again. The clapper pin on my shaper doesn't have any sort of retaining device, and I've never had it work loose. The important thing with taper pins is to keep enough good pin sticking out on each end so you are sure which is the big end and which is the small end should you have to remove it. John Martin ------- Re: Shape-Rite Info-taper pin Posted by: "n8as1x~xxaol.com" Date: Sat Feb 16, 2008 11:36 am ((PST)) set the old pin tween centers & use ur compound /offset t/stock if u dont want to reset compound for long pin , to set the taper ..usually 1/4 in /ft & turn up a new pin out of 1018 or whatever around, maybe drill rod ...not difficult ..i have made a few over the years...have had to GENTLY ream a tad on clapper to avoid lock up when driving pin ..thot it kinda "fiddly " best wishes docn8as ------- Shape-Rite Info-taper pin Posted by: "Pasek Dennis Civ 520 SMXS/MXDEB" dennis.pasekx~xxhill.af.mil Date: Wed Feb 20, 2008 11:47 pm ((PST)) John and Doc: Thanks for the suggestions. I came across a link to an article that covers this very subject pretty well: http://www.neme-s.org/shapers/columns/shaper_column_23.html BTW, I was able to order a couple of #8 pins from Fastenal for about $2.50 each. Regards, Dennis ------- Perfecto problem [Metal_Shapers] Posted by: "mike_tilby" M.J.Tilbyx~xxncl.ac.uk Date: Mon Jul 14, 2008 12:25 pm ((PDT)) Hello, I've recently joined this group and I wonder if anyone has encountered problems with the ratchet feed mechanism of Perfecto powered shapers? I purchased my 5" powered Perfecto a few years ago. It was almost unused and has proved very useful to me. However, after using it for some time the ratchet feed mechanism started playing up. I have had to dismantle the mechanism and re-shape the ratchet plunger three times so far. I think the problem arises from the use of a bi-directional ratchet wheel which therefore has square teeth. The edges of the trailing side of the teeth therefore impact on the rear sloping face of the plunger and this eventually becomes ridged so it does not click over the teeth but just drags the ratchet wheel+lead screw back in the opposite direction. The lead screw adjustment nut has a spring washer between it and the bearing. I assume this is to give resistance to prevent the ratchet wheel moving backwards - but this is sufficient once the plunger has become worn. I am thinking of modifying the ratchet mechanism. I'd be very interested to hear whether or not anyone else has encountered and overcome this problem and/or has any suggestions. Regards Mike ------- Re: Perfecto problem Posted by: "J.R. Williams" jrwillmsx~xxhal-pc.org Date: Mon Jul 14, 2008 12:55 pm ((PDT)) MIke: Does the ratchet member have any means of keeping the edge of the plunger parallel to the slot in the drive wheel? I made a couple of new plungers for my old Logan several years ago and and it was sensitive to the plunger position and spring pressure. JRW ------- Re: Perfecto problem Posted by: "J.R. Williams" jrwillmsx~xxhal-pc.org Date: Mon Jul 14, 2008 6:50 pm ((PDT)) MIke: I had a similar problem with my small shaper, a Logan, not feeding consistently. I solved the problem by adding a set of friction washers, steel and fiber, on the end of the feed screw. With sufficient tension the screw would not turn backward on the return stroke of the feed ratchet. JRW ------- Re: Perfecto problem Posted by: "ALAN HEARSUM" alanhearsumx~xxbtinternet.com Date: Tue Jul 15, 2008 7:00 am ((PDT)) Thats exactly what I do with my Perfecto shaper. I tighten the nuts at the end of the leadscrew. I will now add a fibre washer as that sounds like a good idea. Alan ------- Re: Perfecto problem Posted by: "Michael.Lawtonx~xxtesco.net" Date: Tue Jul 15, 2008 3:36 am ((PDT)) I've got a Perfecto machine as well, Mike, and I've noticed a similar problem, but due to a different cause. The ratchet plunger is not becoming notched, but the feedscrew needs a certain rotatory resistance (I hope that's a real word) in order that the plunger can ride over the next tooth. Tightening the locknuts at the right hand end of the feedscrew very slightly can help. Without this, the feedscrew simply rotates with the tooth and then back again. Adjusting the spring tension on the ratchet does not help this. As it happens, I'm only using the power feed to travel left at present, owing to the fact that the bronze block that acts as a feednut fouls a web in the bed before it reaches the autostop cutout on the feedscrew and shears the feednut bolts, if I'm not paying attention, when travelling right. Any thoughts on that? Mike L ------- Re: Perfecto problem Posted by: "mike_tilby" M.J.Tilbyx~xxncl.ac.uk Date: Wed Jul 16, 2008 6:28 am ((PDT)) Thanks JRW for that idea. The Perfecto does have a spring washer at the end of the feed-screw which I assume does the same job as your fibre washer. However, once the ratchet pin gets worn, the friction needed to stop the ratchet going backwards as well as forwards is so great it is hard work when I want to traverse the carriage (if thats the correct term) a long way by hand. Regarding your previous message - yes the ratchet pin in the Perfecto is held in the correct orientation by a 1/16 diam pin which passes through the ratchet pin and registers in a groove in the body of the ratchet mechanism. However, your comment about spring makes me think I should try experimenting with different strength springs as the spring in the Perfecto is quite strong. Thanks again Mike ------- Re: Perfecto problem Posted by: "mike_tilby" M.J.Tilbyx~xxncl.ac.uk Date: Wed Jul 16, 2008 6:45 am ((PDT)) Hi Mike Lawton: Yes, I do have the lock nuts (with spring washer between them and the base casting) adjusted to give a reasonable amount of restistance. I checked in my shaper and I see the parts you refer to that stop your carriage going fully to the right. In my machine there is plenty of clearance between the feed-nut and both of the casting webs. If your nut only fouls the right web does this mean that web is at fault rather than the nut? In which case can you file or angle-grind a bit off the top of the web to give clearance? The feed nut is something I have never looked at. You mentioned that the feed-nut bolts shear in your machine. Where are these located? Do they go upwards into the casting of the carriage (or whatever it should be called)? I am curious to know for future reference. Regards Mike ------- Re: Ammco - broken off gits question [Metal_Shapers] Posted by: "viajoaquinx~xxaol.com" viajoaquinx~xxaol.com Date: Mon Aug 11, 2008 1:03 am ((PDT)) In a message dated 8/10/2008, richtesx~xxrocketmail.com writes: >What's the best way to remove the shaft from a broken off gits on a >rockwell/ammco? There's not enough of it above ground to get excited >about. I assume it screws in. Thanks, Rich Rich: They just press in. You should be able to pry out what's left with a small screwdriver. Don't try using an extractor, that will just make it tighter. BakoRoy ------- Re: Ammco - broken off gits question Posted by: "David G. LeVine" dlevine144x~xxverizon.net Date: Tue Aug 12, 2008 1:15 am ((PDT)) If you have one broken BELOW the surface, use carbon paste around the hole (thin layer) and weld a rod to the nub. The heat often helps loosening things and carbon paste prevents the spatter from coating the bore and prevents weld from attaching to the bore. David G. LeVine Nashua, NH 03060 ------- Re: Ammco - broken off gits question Posted by: "jmartin957x~xxaol.com" Date: Tue Aug 12, 2008 7:20 am ((PDT)) > I get to feel stupid. What's a gits? Could it really be gibs? Gits Bros., now Gits Mfg., were/are the largest maker of spring-hinged oil hole covers, oil cups, ball oilers, etc. Many different styles and sizes. John Martin ------- [Metal_Shapers] new article: making and installing a tapered pivot pin on a shaper Posted by: "rgsparberx~xxaol.com" Date: Sun Aug 24, 2008 8:34 pm ((PDT)) This article describes how I made a tapered D reamer and used it to cut a tapered hole in my clapper box and clapper. It took two tries to make the reamer but in the end it worked great. I also made the tapered pivot pin. Luck wins out over skill every time! If you are interested, please see: http://rick.sparber.org/Articles/CD/CDM/tpp.pdf Rick Sparber web site: http://rick.sparber.org ------- Tramming a shaper? [Metal_Shapers] Posted by: "Ron Clobes" rclobesx~xxembarqmail.com Date: Sat Sep 6, 2008 8:35 pm ((PDT)) Hello: Long time lurker here coming out of hiding. My question is about a South Bend 7 shaper and tramming. Suppose I were to clamp a block of 1" by 3" CRS in the shaper vise and plane a flat surface. I then flip the CRS end-for-end (keeping the planed surface up) and start removing more metal. What I am seeing is the two finished surfaces are not parallel. How does one go about getting the top surface of the table (or ultimately, the bed of the vise) parallel to the ram ways? It looks to me like my only option is to use shims under the vise, but wanted to run this by the experts in case I am missing something really obvious that would make life simpler. I have the South Bend shaper Army manual and all the other files in the files folder to work with. What I am ultamately trying to do is create the parts for a crossslide for a small watchmaker's lathe. I recently watched a crossslide go for $630 on E-bay and figured I have all the machinery and access to a really nice scrap barrel at work so why not make one myself and pick up a bunch of skills in the process? I picked up a 12" Sheldon shaper in 2005 and then a 7" SB shaper in 2006 and they have pretty much sat idle till now. I figured I would get the SB7 running first as the parts I am trying to make will easily fit in the 7" size limitation. I experimentally found the angle of the ways on the Watchmaker's lathe by cutting the negative of the ways in a piece of scrap CRS and played with the angle of the tool head till I could set my scrap on the bed of the lathe and get complete contact with the ways. (I blued the lathe ways and gently rubbed the CRS on the lathe ways.) Being that the angle is somewhere between 28 and 29 degrees, I want to leave the tool head alone and flip the part end for end to cut all dovetails. Therein lies the reason I am writing. I have shimmed the vise to get close to accomplishing my goal, but I'm thinking there must be a better way. I am thinking the end of the table (closest to the operator when the shaper is not running ;oP) is about 10 thousandths too high. Sincerely: Ron ------- Re: Tramming a shaper? Posted by: "n8as1x~xxaol.com" Date: Sat Sep 6, 2008 9:33 pm ((PDT)) no experience w/ a south bend shaper ... however the final "fix", after all else fails to correct, is to take a cleanup cut on the table w/ a finishing bit in ur toolpost, w/ a flat point bit or a shear grind bit ...tables w/out a foot under them or w/out USING the foot, under heavy usage will develop a "droop".... things to check first ....snug up ram & table gibs & put an indicator in the toolpost ...stroke the ram & check for runout in the ram plane & again traversing the table.east/west.....if this checks out, ok, & remember, shapers were never intended to bypass surface grinders, then indicate the bed of the vise in place..either accept, or true it ...next clamp the square in the vise in line w/ ram & indicate the blade, again from the toolpost/ram ..having checked the bed true, if there is runout, shim the fixed jaw w/paper& recheck... most of my out of square problems have been from failure to use a dowel (drill bit, whatever) between sliding jaw & the work, (to allow the irregular workpiece to seat solidly) & then pounding the work down.,. ONCE & SOLIDLY w/ lead/rawhide.....u can check how solidly it bears w/cig.paper under 4 corners....try it w/out the dowel, & again w/out pounding & see how well ur vise locks down hope this helps & if not, maybe someone else will benefit best wishes docn8as ------- Re: Tramming a shaper? Posted by: "Darryl Wakefield" shtmtl999x~xxhotmail.com Date: Sat Sep 6, 2008 11:07 pm ((PDT)) You should check for wear on the ways or gibs. If all that's ok, then just use the shaper to re surface the top of your cross slide. Then you know it's true to the cut of your shaper. Darryl from Olympia/Portland. ------- Re: Tramming a shaper? Posted by: "Matthew Tinker" mattinkerx~xxyahoo.com Date: Sun Sep 7, 2008 2:05 am ((PDT)) Hi, just a small note. I don't know how much experience you have with shapers, but I would be wary about following the advice of skimming the table with the shaper. My reason is, from personal experience of using my shaper, it took me a certain time to learn to get a decent surface finish. Shim up your vice until you're confident! I've been looking for and can't find an article on "plough shear" shaper bits; they give a fine almost polished finish; maybe somebody else knows where it is or has it. If I'm preaching to the converted, forgive me! ------- Re: Tramming a shaper? Posted by: "rgsparberx~xxaol.com" Date: Sun Sep 7, 2008 6:11 am ((PDT)) An approach that is as accurate as skimming the table, but as harmless as shimming the vise, is to cut soft pads in place. I use 6061 AL. Rick Sparber web site: http://rick.sparber.org ------- Re: Tramming a shaper? Posted by: "Mario L Vitale" mariol.vitalex~xxatt.net Date: Sun Sep 7, 2008 10:27 pm ((PDT)) Ron: Building on what Rick Sparber said, about "6061 aluminum feet", you could just bolt a piece of 1/2" or 3/4" thick aluminum jig plate to the table (counterbore the fasteners to allow machining over them) and then make your clean up cut to get the table surface parallel to the ram stroke. If you screw up, no harm done! Mario ------- Re: Tramming a shaper? Posted by: "Ron Clobes" rclobesx~xxembarqmail.com Date: Sun Sep 7, 2008 7:17 am ((PDT)) Thanks for the ideas. [If I'm preaching to the converted, forgive me!] I appreciate all advice, no matter how obvious it is. I bought my shapers a while back knowing what they were capable of, but only having a basic understanding of how they worked after reading the David Gingery series of books. My experience around shapers is basically what I've picked up in the last two weeks after getting the wild idea that I wanted a cross slide for my watchmakers lathe and realizing that I don't want to afford the going rate for cross slides at this time. I believe taking a finishing cut is how David Gingery got his ram and table parallel so I wasn't surprised when it was suggested here...Just that, when the metal is taken off, it is taken off for good. I'd have to be pretty confident that I knew what I was doing before I go down that path. I'm not there yet. I'll look into how the vise mounts to the table. There is a key under the vise that squares it with the table, and I am wondering if maybe the key isn't a little tall and holding one end of the vise up. I didn't use a dowel in the vise either, so there are lots of ideas that I need to explore. I also need to mount a dial indicator on the ram and see how the table lines up with the ram. The other day, I was looking for a way to droop the table a bit and wasn't seeing the adjustments to do that, but the concept of using the shaper to take a finishing cut on its own table explains why there is no adjustment on either the SB7 or the Sheldon to do what I wanted to do. Thanks again for all the advise. Ron ------- Re: Tramming a shaper? Posted by: "J.R. Williams" jrwillmsx~xxhal-pc.org Date: Sun Sep 7, 2008 9:27 am ((PDT)) A good point mentioned was the lifting of the work in the vise. Pounding it down with a lead or 'dead blow' hammer helps as well as the use of "hold downs". They are special tapered parallels that go between the work and a vise jaw to for pushing the work down on the vise (Starrett Model 54C). JRW ------- Re: Tramming a shaper? Posted by: "Clive Foster" clive_fosterx~xxtalk21.com Date: Mon Sep 8, 2008 2:59 am ((PDT)) JRW gives good advice concerning the use of a "dead blow" hammer to pound things firmly down into the vice or onto the table. However one small quirk with these tools is that they are most effective when the handle is not firmly gripped. The basic technique is to swing, more of a flick really, with your wrist gripping it just hard enough so that it doesn't fly out of your hand. The weight of the head does all the work. That way the head says on the thing being hit completely without bounce exactly as specified. Strangling the handle and larruping with lots of arm and elbow work in club hammer fashion is counter-productive. The hammer will bounce and so will the work. I use a 16 oz dead blow for most things and an 8 oz for light work and pretty much don't hold the handle at all. Initially just enough to get the swing going in the right direction then loosening up as it approaches the work so its pretty much resting in my hand. If I missed the only thing stopping it flying away and clonking the little man who lives under the bench and hides my tools is the fact that the handle gets bigger towards the end so the loose first two fingers and thumb guidance grip becomes tight enough to stop it escaping. I have a 32 ounce one for serious stuff but that is far too aggressive for machine tool work. Make sure your aim is good. These things can do serious damage. Clive ------- Re: Tramming a shaper? Posted by: "rgsparberx~xxaol.com" Date: Mon Sep 8, 2008 5:51 am ((PDT)) I used to pound my parts down in my vise but not anymore. Pounding can distort the part and even shift the vise. My vise is one of those low cost Enco vises and it had lots of problems that caused the part to squeeze upward as force was applied. The single largest source of this problem was a set of slightly loose bolts holding the fixed jaw support block to the vise ways. I used a DTI on various parts of the vise while tightening it to find the culprit. Now I just apply firm hand pressure to the part as I tighten the vise and routinely get cuts true to better than 0.000 5" as tested with my DTI on a surface plate. For more information, see: http://rick.sparber.org/Articles/ViseDef/ViDef.htm Rick Sparber web site: http://rick.sparber.org ------- Re: Tramming a shaper? Posted by: "Ron Clobes" rclobesx~xxembarqmail.com Date: Tue Sep 9, 2008 3:26 am ((PDT)) Hello: Here is what I've been able to see after digging into my shaper yesterday. I raised the table up to within 2" or so of the bottom of the ram. I cranked the shaper over till the ram was all the way back. I laid a parallel on the table and then put an empty tool holder in the tool slide and allowed the tool holder to rest on the parallel. I tightened down the tool holder and gently pulled out the parallel. I then extended the ram and put the parallel under the tool holder. I couldn't tell that the tool holder was any lower. Not terribly scientific, and I do have a dial indicator, but just a quick and dirty check. I laid a parallel on the vise bed and detected a slight bit of wobble when I held the parallel against the back vise jaw. "Hah!" I thought. Took the vise apart and found a chip wedged under the back vise jaw and sticking out just a smidgen. I cleaned up the vise and put the vise on the table and tightend the vise down. I repeated my quick and dirty test along the top of the vise and saw no droop there either. Figured I had this problem beat and proceeded to repeat my flat surface flipped end-for-end test that I mentioned when I first wrote. I got rid of the variability that I was seeing as the table moved along the cross rail, but I am still seeing the tool dig slightly deeper as the ram extends out. Seems to be on the order of about 0.005" in 1.5" of extension. Made a little progress from previously. The problem seems to be a dynamic one as I cannot detect this droop with the tool holder and parallel test described above when the machine is sitting idle. I dug into this problem more last night and I think the problem lies in the tool slide (page 30 of the Army manual). I've stood at the side of the shaper and grabbed the ram at each end and alternately pushed and pulled and I cannot detect any excess motion side-to-side. The tool slide however feels very sloppy. I tore the tool slide apart and saw a chunk of cast iron pulled out of where the lockscrew (part 19) screws in. I'm also wondering if a previous owner didn't try to take too deep of a cut and somehow sprung the tool slide (part 11) a bit. I might be able to cut a wider gib (Part 21) to take up some of the slop. If all else fails, I'll just create a "South Bend Shaper Tool Slide" saved search on E-bay and wait till one comes along. For now, the shims may have to stay under the vise, but I've got more chips to cut from various sized pieces of metal to see if I can find some kind of work around or understand my shaper better. I may have to drag my little shaper into the basement for the winter so I can continue to play with it. Need to solve the chip containment and oil dripping problems before "Spot" can come into the house though. Thanks also to Michael Edwards for the shear cutter ideas. I needed that information too. Ron ------- NOTE TO FILE: The conversation about shear cutters can be read here (at Machining and Metalworking at Home) starting on 07 Sep 2008 in the file called "Shaper Bits and Toolholders". That same file has more information on these bits. ------- Re: Tramming a shaper? Posted by: "Matthew Tinker" mattinkerx~xxyahoo.com Date: Tue Sep 9, 2008 3:39 am ((PDT)) Ron, the further you are from the cross slide, the greater the leverage that is exerted on the table, any flexing will show up more and more as the ram moves out. I presume that your table doesn't have a support, as this effectively eliminates dynamic action. This flexing can cause chatter. Are you having chatter problems? Regards, Matthew ------- Re: Tramming a shaper? Posted by: "n8as1x~xxaol.com" Date: Tue Sep 9, 2008 1:41 pm ((PDT)) did u put a dowel or drill bit tween the sliding jaw & the part ??????? ...cause if u did not, the part cud EASILY raise up .005 where the sliding jaw bears .....did u lock down the slide, w/ a gib screw if nothing else?...at the very least, did u back up the screw to take out the slop after setting the tool ???...so the bit will not "wander" .... my procedure is to always wind down more than the intended cut ( beyond the slack ) & then back to the number needed & lock up the slide... after some dig ins & scrap production, one finally learns this ( as i finally did ) ........this IS meant to be helpful ! best wishes docn8as ------- Re: Tramming a shaper? Posted by: "Ron Clobes" rclobesx~xxembarqmail.com Date: Tue Sep 9, 2008 3:33 pm ((PDT)) Hello: The table does have a support which I am using and I am using a rod salvaged from an old printer in the vise and that makes a difference. I am noticing a lot of play in the tool slide, on the order of 1/32" at the tip of the tool when I grab the handle and wiggle it back and forward (parallel with the ram). I did notice that I had about 3/4" of dovetail exposed at the bottom of the tool slide and when I lowered the tool slide to even with the bottom of the dovetail, the tool slide tightened considerably and has no wobble. I'll play with the shaper after supper and maybe I should have better results. Might just be a matter of knowing its limitations. I was raising the tool slide so I could work down the dovetails that I was wanting to cut and didn't want to have to worry about crashing the tool slide into my work. The tool bit does chatter in the manner that I was using the shaper the last few days, but I guess I need to ask the question, "How deep of a cut should I expect to be able to make if I advance the table cross feed .004" each cycle. If I should be able to take 1/16" easily with a round bottom bit, there definitely is a chatter problem. If I should expect maybe 1/32" with a pointed bit that one would use in the corner of a dovetail, I can do that if I start the shaper and bring the tool bit down slowly into the cut and then engage the cross feed. Ron ------- Re: Tramming a shaper? Posted by: "n8as1x~xxaol.com" Date: Tue Sep 9, 2008 4:20 pm ((PDT)) the max cut i can take w/out chatter on my atlas 7 B is .100 x~xx .020 feed, or .125 x~xx .010 w/ severe side rake ,SEVERE,, no back rake, & MIN. frnt clrnce...just enuf to clear..maybe 3-4 deg..w/ a 1/4 in bit, pointed w/ maybe a .032 radius ,the holder angled away from cut so it does not dig in, & the clapper angled just a tad off center to clear as it rears up ..it IS NOT PRETTY , but does not audibly /visibly chatter., just rough!! ..i then take at least 2 finish cuts, ususally three...,maybe a 30 thou w/ a small flattened point . a 5 thou w/ same bit or a "dutch nose" bit set as flat as i can get away with ( sorry , but i cant think of the politically correct name ...just going back to 1920 terminology ) & finally a 2 thou w/ a shear bit w/ lard /oil ..when i am serious. i find it mandatory to over travel & back up, lock the slide for anything near a precise cut ...my 16 in smith, mills is somewhat better, w/ just as much lash , but heavier slide mitigates SOME..if i dont, even just turning the screw lack out, it will dig in w/out a HARD lock. sometimes even with a tight lock up ....but all 5 shapers require the over travel * back up proceedure. if i am really making something, not just roughing off stock .. just like the cross slide on lathe when changing direction. a round bit of 1/4 radius does not belong on steel taking anything more than a light finish cut w/ these machines....ok on cast uron, even a flat bit will finish cast iron decently. and it does take a while to " understand " these machines...at one point i made up my mind to moth ball the mills for ANY thing that cud be done on the shapers & that is almost everything cept boring ( which used to be done on a faceplate, before bridgeport "changed the world" ) & to learn how to use "the olde beasties"..., last two projects were a slotting attach for horiz mill, & a follower rest for 1895 Reed 14 in. best wishes docn8as ------- advise [ABOUT A NEW CROSSFEED NUT] [Metal_Shapers] Posted by: "Frank Ingram" ingramfx~xxyahoo.com Date: Tue Sep 30, 2008 7:24 pm ((PDT)) Hi everyone. I have a Rhodes shaper. It needs a new brass nut for the crossfeed. Can you guys advise me on the type of brass stock I will need to make a new one? Your help will be appreciated. Also, I own a Hercules...any data on this one would be appreciated. thanks Frank ------- Re: advise Posted by: "Jim B." btdtrfx~xxverizon.net Date: Tue Sep 30, 2008 7:50 pm ((PDT)) I would use Bronze rather than Brass. Enco sells cored bronze. http://www.use-enco.com/CGI/INSRIT?PARTPG=INSRAR2 www.use-enco.com/CGI/INSRIT?PARTPG=INSRAR2&PMAKA=505-3771&PMPXNO=945542 They also have solid bronze. I note the last since I don't know the size of your cross feed. Here is one I never quite finished for my Springfield. It's a 1" 4 LH square thread. http://farm1.static.flickr.com/212/469221356_4995689e85_o.jpg Jim B. ------- Re: advise Posted by: "coldtoo2000" coldtoo2000x~xxyahoo.com Date: Tue Sep 30, 2008 10:31 pm ((PDT)) Hi Frank, I've also seen where guys have used solder to "babbitt" new threads in the old nut. Just a thought. CT2 ------- Re: advise Posted by: "Richard Sutcliffe" ras1x~xxuniserve.com Date: Tue Sep 30, 2008 11:14 pm ((PDT)) > I would use Bronze rather than Brass. I agree, that's what I used for our old Butler at the school. Dick Atlas 7B shaper owner/operator. Atlas MFB mill owner/operator. ------- Re: advise Posted by: "Matthew Tinker" mattinkerx~xxyahoo.com Date: Wed Oct 1, 2008 1:18 am ((PDT)) Frank, I recently eliminated the play in my cross feed nut on my lathe by simply cutting it in half at right angles to the thread, after having drilled and tapped for two bolts to hold it back together. I was extremely lucky, a band-saw blade thickness was exactly the amount that was needed to take up the back-lash! I included pictures and notes on this in my lathe CNC build up Page 4, message #39 (link in signature line) Regards, Matthew TINKER CNC conversion 1944 Colchester Lathe build-up log http://www.cnczone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=35519 ------- NOTE TO FILE: The following conversation is actually off topic and should have had a new Subject. Those wanting to see the original conversation about using a hacksaw powered by a shaper should read the file here "Metal Shaper Modifications General" starting 03 Nov 2008. ------- Re: shaper hacksaw attachment [Metal_Shapers] Posted by: "oakite2000" stackerjackx~xxhotmail.com Date: Sun Nov 9, 2008 9:07 am ((PST)) Hi Guys,: Pardon me for interupting your thread, but could someone tell me please, is it normal for shapers to be noisy. I bought one a while ago, a Royal, and replaced the bronze bush which fits in the slot of the arm which drives the ram. It is much quieter, but still clonks away. I can't see a way of working on the slot in which it runs, there is a little play there. Any thoughts please? Jack ------- Re: shaper hacksaw attachment Posted by: "David Gurney" davida104x~xxyahoo.com Date: Sun Nov 9, 2008 9:34 am ((PST)) Hi Jack: Check to see if you have the ram gibs set too tight. It has to be able to float in a film of oil. I use a Tonna V68 and Tonna V32 oil designed for sliding machine surfaces. David Victoria BC ------- Re: shaper hacksaw attachment Posted by: "J.R. Williams" jrwillmsx~xxhal-pc.org Date: Sun Nov 9, 2008 1:32 pm ((PST)) Jack: You have two more pivot points under the ram that should be checked. If you had slop in the one at the sliding member the upper ones probably need attention. JRW ------ South Bend table feed pawl [Metal_Shapers] Posted by: "ram50v8efi" ram50v8efix~xxyahoo.com Date: Mon Nov 10, 2008 11:41 am ((PST)) First off, Hi Scott! As a long time member of your Logan Lathe group (I still have my Wards 700) I want to thank you for providing such a great service for us. Now on to the problem. I recently aquired a SB 7" shaper. It was filthy dirty (parked under a buffing wheel for years) but after a thorough disassembly and cleaning I found it to be in remarkably good shape. Even the ways for the ram have the hand scraping marks still visable. But there is a problem with the table auto feed. At some time in the machine's past the pawl was broken and a replacement was cobbled up with what appears to be a bench grinder. It fit the bore so poorly that the knob rocks back and forth and in order to get the table to move the feed rate has to be set at .012" or greater to get it to move one tooth at a time. I have reamed the bore .005 over to clean up the damage and machined a new pawl that fits perfectly but have not machined the tooth profile yet. That's the problem, I do not have a pic of the pawl's tooth profile to work with and the old one was rough at best. Can anyone help me out with a pic or dimensioned drawing? Thank you, Darren M. ------- Re: South Bend table feed pawl Posted by: "J.R. Williams" jrwillmsx~xxhal-pc.org Date: Mon Nov 10, 2008 1:15 pm ((PST)) I had a similar problem with my Logan Shaper. I revised the ratchet assembly by making a new pawl and boring out the housing and installing a section of oilite bronze to remove the "slop". I made it wider than the casting and that helps. Another bit problem is there has to be sufficient friction with the feed screw to retain the screw when the ratchet pawl is moved back for a new notch. I added a fiber washer to the end of the screw under an existing steel washer. With a light preload on the screw the problem was solved. JRW ------- Re: South Bend table feed pawl Posted by: "ram50v8efi" ram50v8efix~xxyahoo.com Date: Wed Nov 12, 2008 7:06 am ((PST)) Thanks J.R., I ended up figuring out the tooth profile for the pawl and put it back together. Works very smoothly now with virtually no backlash in the entire unit. Next on the agenda is to machine a tool post for it that fits properly. Darren M. ------- Alba 1A 10" Shaper [Metal_Shapers] Posted by: "tomstuart180" tomstuartsworkshopx~xxtiscali.co.uk Date: Tue Apr 14, 2009 10:48 am ((PDT)) Hi all: My first post! I have had an Alba shaper for about 10 years, after a long time out of use I am back to using it again. It has four possible speeds via a double pulley and a gearbox. Belt change works fine but if I try high speed on the box it slows to a crawl and the motor smokes. Gibs are all adjusted OK - anybody any ideas please. I know it's an English machine but it looks a lot like US pattern ones on this site. Bit of history - it originally was in the Rolls Royce factory in Derby and the last owner used to machine full size expansion links for steam locos. ------- Re: Alba 1A 10" Shaper Posted by: "Rexarino" rexarinox~xxgmail.com Date: Tue Apr 14, 2009 2:41 pm ((PDT)) In no particular order; 1) Motor is too small 2) Motor is 3 phase, but being operated on single phase 3) Bearings are too loose allowing the motor rotor to contact the fields 4) The run capacitor is old and has reduced capacity 5) Wiring is too small to maintain voltage at the motor 6) Drive train has misalignment, causing severe end load on motor 7) Re above: thrust washer(s) or flange of bushing inside motor is worn 8) Belt rubs on guard in high speed position 9) Too tight, too loose, or misshapen bearing doesn't like high speed. Try running in next lower speed for a while, then feel for hot spots. When you get a really badly burnt finger, look there for the problem. That's all that comes to me, Rex ------- ohio shaper [Metal_Shapers] Posted by: "jbowman0012" jbowman0012x~xxyahoo.com Date: Sun Apr 19, 2009 4:38 pm ((PDT)) I have an old ohio shaper. I believe it has a 24" stroke. It gets some use in my shop for die making and occasionally cutting a key way. This machine is VERY old and, as it gets used very little has never been rebuilt. For the most part it works fairly well, but recently has developed a strange quirk. The feed pawl will not find the gear teeth in the cross feed. I have filed the teeth deeper into the pawl, replaced the pawl twice, put a stronger spring behind the pawl, and nothing seems to help aside from standing next to the machine holding the pawl down with my finger! This does get old when surfacing a 10"x5" die block of 4340. As a result the shaper doesn't get used much. I am wondering am I doing something wrong? It used to work much better. I find it hard to believe that I have worn the feed out on this 120+ yr old machine. ------- Re: ohio shaper Posted by: "J R Williams" jrwillmsx~xxhal-pc.org Date: Sun Apr 19, 2009 6:18 pm ((PDT)) You need some friction in the screw system for the ratchet to work. Increasing the spring tension only makes things worse. JRW ------- What I found with the Ram gib strips [Metal_Shapers] Posted by: "zs6bxi" bobtx~xxiafrica.com Date: Wed Apr 22, 2009 9:40 am ((PDT)) Hi to the group and Chris, Chris, after running the shaper for a few hours and with plenty of oil in the ram dove tails, I reset the gib screws. Now the worst slop cross wise is ~6 thou and that is only when the ram is at full extention. Other than that I'm seeing 3~4 thou. Which I guess is good enough. The ram is still free enough to move by hand when the top clamp is slackened off. One 'funny', several of the hex grub screws doing the adjustment sheared while being tightened (with very little torque I might add and the screws were 10mm in diameter!). I suspect that the quality controls 25 years ago was ot too good and these screws were a little too hard (very hard) but perhaps the screws fatigued over the years ? Anyway I now have the shaper mounted on two pieces of wood 6" X 6" X 4ft with coach bolts to hold the shaper to the beams. This seems to be a good compromise for me. The wood will 'mold' to the floor rather than having to be carefully packed. The pressure of the 400kgs of Shaper over the cross section of wood is stopping the shaper going walkies. So all in all a good solution for me. Now I running out of excuses not to get stuck in and make chips. Regards to all Bob ------- What I found with the Ram gib strips Posted by: "Clive Foster" clive_fosterx~xxtalk21.com Date: Thu Apr 23, 2009 10:46 am ((PDT)) Bob: I've found that conventional push screw" gib systems respond very well to replacing the usual pointed adjuster screws with ball ended ones after reworking the screw location recesses to conical form using the appropriate size centre drill and fitting a dowel to ensure that there is no possibility of independent sideways shift. This works especially well on worn or abused systems albeit usually after making a replacement well fitting gib. Frankly it's a lot easier than re-scraping and, unless things are real bad at least as effective as re-do to standard. Naturally you have to clean things out very well to ensure that the gib seats right down into the corner of the stationary dovetail but everything is pretty much self jigging so the job pretty much only takes time. I find that after such modification the adjuster screw torque can be significantly increased before a properly adjusted (i.e. with even screw settings) slide ceases to be free moving, even when compared to a near factory condition equivalent. It's also a lot easier to get good adjustment. My take on the reasons for improvement is two-fold: 1) The geometry of the ball ended screw working in conical hole forces the gib down into the stationary dovetail corner making things more rigid and more responsive to accurate adjustment. 2) A conventional gib sort of floats on the points of the adjusters and on the oil film so it is able to move slightly sideways when motion reverses producing a slight ride up and down effect on the adjuster points which acts to close the clearances slightly so limiting the closeness to nominal zero clearance which can be achieved. The dowel stops any such float so the adjuster can be got that bit tighter. In support of these claims I would cite a milling vice which, as obtained (real cheap) had a very poor home made gib whose only saving grace was that the main wearing surface was at least adequately flat. The screws were more than a little abused, along with their location details and none of the edges were sufficiently straight or well enough positioned for the gib to seat down into the dovetail corners. This gib could be seen to move around as the vice was worked through its travel. The whole thing seemed totally kanckered. Merely re-doing the gib as described and fitting nut seating bolts transformed it into the accurate device Mr Abwood intended to make. Indeed it's quite impossible to get the gibs tight enough to lock it up without deliberate mal-adjustment of at least one screw. Clive ------- Re: What I found with the Ram gib strips Posted by: "Chris" in2steamx~xxwi.rr.com Date: Thu Apr 23, 2009 2:00 pm ((PDT)) Bob: In response to what Clive has found, I also changed the set screws/ adjusting bolts out on my older machines, but I used brass tipped setscrews instead. I agree that the point on the tip is problem with older worn machines, the brass tips will however conform better to a counter bore in the gib. I have only found one instance of the gibs being machined to match the conical tip of the set screw. That's just my experience, I have not had one snap off on me either though. I would suspect that both lack of lubrication, and swarf/gunk may have played a part along with possible overadjustment. The true first machine I rebuilt was my Atlas 7b; the gunk and paint was so built up that the nuts on the setscrews were invisible. Although I did not snap off the set (it was a flat head) I gnarled it up badly. Then I realized there was a nut below the paint and gunk. I am glad you got it so tight, it's better then I could do with my Atlas but she's pretty well worn. Now that I have a Rockwell vertical mill that she could fit on, I might actually clean the box ways up some and tighten her up a little. I use shims and gibs instead of gibs vee ways, which makes remachining easy but adjustment more of a mental challenge. I would be careful about mounting that size of a machine to wood; it can lead to unforeseen problems, and I would imagine it will slide across the floor anyway. Regards, Chris ------- Re: Small shapers [Metal_Shapers] Posted by: "Jordan" jwprincicx~xxbigpond.com Date: Tue Feb 2, 2010 5:06 pm ((PST)) Posted by: "mike_tilby" > On a couple of occasions I have found the ratchet was sticking so > that the lead screw oscillated - rotating back and forth instead > of rotating only in one direction. This was the result of the > plunger developing a groove across its sloping face, I had the same symptom, but in my case it was fixed by just taking up some of the free play on the lead screw. Jordan ------- Re: Small shapers Posted by: "Richard Wilson" richardwilsonx~xxn7mcg.ie Date: Wed Feb 3, 2010 12:51 am ((PST)) It's a common problem with ratchet feed systems, and isn't unique to Perfecto shapers. The leadscrew needs to be reasonably stiff to turn, to prevent the ratchet from dragging it back. This is often achieved by using a fibre or spring washer under the thrust adjustment nut. Grooving on the plunger doesn't help either. Regards Richard ------- NOTE TO FILE: The following conversation about straightening a part on a Rhodes shaper has several ideas that would be useful for repairing other parts, and on other machines -- not just shapers. ------- rhodes shaper bent vertical feed screw [Metal_Shapers] Posted by: "worktoil" worktoilx~xxyahoo.com Date: Tue Feb 23, 2010 11:23 am ((PST)) I recently purchased a Rhodes shaper. Generally, I've been very pleased and had to do nothing before cutting chips accept clean it up. However, I decided it was time to adjust the gibs on the vertical feed screw on the head. I discovered that the "stickiness" was not overly tight gibs but a bent feed screw. It appears to be bent about 3/16" of inch over its 4" length. Any suggestions on a fix? I could machine a new one but it would take me at least two days and it would not be as "pretty" as the old one with my current level of skill. Thanks Bill ------- Re: rhodes shaper bent vertical feed screw Posted by: "jwforneyx~xxmsn.com" jwforneyx~xxmsn.com Date: Tue Feb 23, 2010 12:02 pm ((PST)) Hi Bill, if possible, can you remove it, and straighten it on a press. Between 2 V blocks, roll it around and press down on the high spot. You should be able to get it very close. John ------- Re: rhodes shaper bent vertical feed screw Posted by: "Dave" tiynmanx~xxyahoo.com Date: Tue Feb 23, 2010 12:45 pm ((PST)) You may be able to find a suitable blank from Mcmaster, which would just need the end(s) finished to suit your application. http://www.mcmaster.com/#left-hand-threaded-acme-studs/=5y2vvt I'm sure there are other suppliers as well. Best Regards, Dave ------- Re: rhodes shaper bent vertical feed screw Posted by: "jmartin957x~xxaol.com" Date: Tue Feb 23, 2010 12:47 pm ((PST)) Lead hammer with screw resting on a hardwood block should do it, without messing up the threads. John Martin ------- Re: rhodes shaper bent vertical feed screw Posted by: "Jim B." btdtrfx~xxverizon.net Date: Tue Feb 23, 2010 2:14 pm ((PST)) Here is how I straightened the feed screw on my Burke Mill. Remove the screw. Determine where it is bent. Mine was bent at the relief just before the threads started. Make a sleeve (tube) that you can slip over one end (long end is better) that will reinforce that part of the screw and prevent it from bending. I used a piece of iron pipe. The tighter the fit, the better. Hold the screw in a lathe clamping just at the bend. (Collets are better than a chuck.) Slip on the sleeve. Swing the screw 360 and note the runout (you can even mount a DTI or use a 6" scale). Swing the screw so that the runout is toward the operator. Using the tool post touch the screw/sleeve. Turn in the cross feed an amount equal to (say 25%) more than the runout. Note the position of the cross feed dial. Check the (now reduced) runout on the DTI or with a 6" scale. If not fully removed, go a bit further on the cross feed. Each time rotate 360 and be sure the maximum runout is toward the operator. You can go too far. Repeat until satisfied. I got within 0.005 and quit. Jim B. ------- Re: rhodes shaper bent vertical feed screw Posted by: "worktoil" worktoilx~xxyahoo.com Date: Tue Feb 23, 2010 3:57 pm ((PST)) Thank-you all for your suggestions. Since the shaft has five different diameters on it for different purposes (handle, move the dovetail, nut, etc.) I was unable to just lay a straight edge by it and start working it straight. So I chucked it the lathe and ran a DTI along it to determine where the bend was and how much it was off. After marking the high spot, I placed it back in the dovetails held in a mechanic's vice to avoid marking the threads. Then I put a pipe on it with various spacers to protect the feed screw and gently bent it in the right direction. It only took 5 trips between the lathe and the vice to get 20 thousandths run out over 4 inches. I then reinstalled it on the head and it feels as smooth and tight as one would desire. I particularly appreciated the suggestion of protecting the threads with hardwood. I have used the press method on other bigger things but decided against it because I thought it would be difficult to control the small needed movement. Thanks again, Bill ------- Logan 8 disassembly question [Metal_Shapers] Posted by: "Caddy" ib61soonx~xxcox.net Date: Fri Nov 26, 2010 3:45 pm ((PST)) Have any of you disassembled a Logan 8? Mine has been sitting for many years and all the grease is hard and flaky. Being the machinery freak that I am, I am taking it all down to the bare castings for sandblasting, cleaning and repaint. Before I get too far along, I need to know more about the crank stud removal. It appears that this has to be removed in order to get the whole chain drive and eccentric assembly out of the case. The blow up parts drawing (yeah, the blurry one) shows this to be threaded into the crank stud nut. I've done some preliminary pulling and tugging to see if it will cooperate and even though I expected a "pretty tight" assembly I am a bit reluctant to really get "after it" for fear of ruining perfectly good parts. So, Anybody been there? Considering all the risks of making an assumption, I am assuming it is a standard right hand thread? Thought I would bounce the question off knowledge of the group before I break something. Right hand or Left hand thread? Pointers and ideas welcome! Thanks guys Caddy ------- Re: Logan 8 disassembly question Posted by: "jr williams" jrwillmsx~xxhal-pc.org Date: Fri Nov 26, 2010 4:19 pm ((PST)) The thread on the nut to set the stroke is left hand. ------- Re: Logan 8 disassembly question Posted by: "Caddy" ib61soonx~xxcox.net Date: Sat Nov 27, 2010 7:28 am ((PST)) Thank You JR. I knew I smelled a rat! At the very least, age has given me enough sense to ask first before tearing something up!! ------- Re: Logan 8 disassembly question Posted by: "Dave" tiynmanx~xxyahoo.com Date: Mon Nov 29, 2010 8:01 am ((PST)) The crank adjuster thread is lefty. The shaft that the rocker arm rides on is secured by two setscrews on the bottom of the column, which won't be accessible until the column is removed from base. Having done this on my 8", a couple thoughts: -If I had it to do over, I wouldn't have stripped down to the castings as they're pretty rough. There's some type of filler used in the factory to pretty them up. The same can be accomplished with automotive body filler after the sandblast but it's a lot of work. On some of the later parts I did, I used paint stripper from the hardware store and as long as I didn't leave it on too long, I could get the paint off while leaving the filler behind. These pieces were much easier to finish and turned out every bit as good. YMMV. -My machine is mounted on casters and not bolted to the floor. With this setup, the base acts similar to a bell, reverberating the motors whine. While the machine was apart, I sprayed the inside of the cabinet with automotive rubberized undercoating. This made a notable difference in the volume and frequency of the noise emitted by the motor. -All moving parts are connected to their shaft via tapered pins. If removing with a punch, they will only come out one way. If drilling, drill to the smaller diameter and work some magic to remove the remainder of the large diameter end. I replaced some of these with roll pins upon reassembly. Interesting notes: On my 8" machine, the following parts were cast from what appears to be aluminum. -door on column -tray that hangs off back of column and protects the ways of the ram. (Not sure what this is called in parts diagram) -Belt cover On my 7" Logan, all of the above mentioned parts are cast iron (except the 7" is missing its belt cover). I'd be interested to hear what these parts are cast of on your 8" machine. Good luck and have fun. Best Regards, Dave ------- the moment of truth.... [Metal_Shapers] Posted by: "Chet" drumbum420x~xxmail.com Date: Fri Oct 21, 2011 3:48 am ((PDT)) I finally got myself to stop making aimless chips with my 12" vernon shaper and got down to the dirty details of how well it turned out work. I wasn't expecting a super good shaper as its well over 50 years old. When I took the table apart to clean it I found an .011 shim at the middle base section so I know someone had been in there in the past. Without the shim the table showed about 14 thou off rear to front (lower in the front as usual) so I started to play with shims. I was able to get it down to about 1.5 thou and then realized why I couldnt get it closer. The top of the table looks like a serious chatterbox. almost as if it was ground badly and the high spots knocked off. What has been the experience of other shaper owners about their table top's condition? Did you scrape it or use the shaper to plane it flat? I haven't tested the rotational movement yet or side to side as this was a big enough error to go ahead and take a look at. I really didn't buy it to do finish work on but to rough out and do splines, gears, keyways, etc. but I am aware of a properly setup one able to give a mirror finish. So what should one expect from the table for allowances? What range is typical? ------- Re: the moment of truth.... Posted by: "Matthew" mattinkerx~xxyahoo.com Date: Fri Oct 21, 2011 9:27 am ((PDT)) Chet, from what I've read, shaper tables are trued using the shaper itself, but only as a last resort. If the table is really beaten up, a light skim to get the surface true. I would first learn to get a good finish before starting! Regards, Matthew ------- Re: the moment of truth.... Posted by: "Doc" n8as1x~xxaol.com docn8as Date: Fri Oct 21, 2011 1:12 pm ((PDT)) for commercial work, the WORK shud be w/in 5 thou rough, & two thou finish ......back in the day, two thou was left for finishing & scraping in viz...dovetails .....but if you are REALLY careful (read that as cost INeffective) & know your machine's idiosynchrosies you can get to a thou or a tad better.... when i want a reflective finish on mild steel, i rough out,...... & finish w/ one or two 15 to 30 doc depending on my roughing doc, (using a shovel nose bit or a knife bit set near flat) & finally a 3-5 thou final cut w/ a SHEAR grind bit & rendered lard/30wt oil brushed on, fine feed..........(no, NOT a mirror, but reflective & not in need of further attention..)........commercial cast iron finish is w/ a fullwidth flat bit (some back rake & coarse feed)..... FWIW my 150yr+ pre civil war shaper as well as the other four, will hit these specs in the "sweet spot" ..(where the wear is even) best wishes docn8as ------- Re: the moment of truth.... Posted by: "Matthew" mattinkerx~xxyahoo.com Date: Sat Oct 22, 2011 4:04 pm ((PDT)) Chet, I made a shear type tool using the information in Kay Fisher's Metal Shaper Columns. http://www.neme-s.org/shapers/columns/shaper_column_43.html I think you will find the other pages interesting too, http://www.neme-s.org/shapers/shaper_columns.html The shaper FAQ are also very informative! http://www.neme-s.org/shapers/shaper_faq.html Regards, Matthew ------- Re: the moment of truth.... Posted by: "Doc" n8as1x~xxaol.com docn8as Date: Sat Oct 22, 2011 1:38 pm ((PDT)) > I found that having the tilt table is going to be a real headache as > with the locating pin in place the table still has a wee bit of play several yrs ago, i ordered a 5x7 tilt table from enco for circa $45 ..abt double now .....it has been a good answer for my mills & plainshaper tables best wishes docn8as ------- Re: the moment of truth.... Posted by: "Jim S." mrjschmidtx~xxhotmail.com Date: Sun Oct 23, 2011 7:53 am ((PDT)) Chet: Have you checked for high spots or a tiny bit of paint or a chip between the mating surfaces? I don't know your shaper specifically, but swivels like this often use a tapered pin to locate the parts. A taper pin allows the pin to settle in a little deeper as wear occurs while maintaining the original alignment. A common example of this is the clapper box on many shapers. If your machine has a straight pin for alignment, you may want to consider converting it to a taper pin. If you already have a taper pin, it might need to be rereamed or reamed out for a larger pin. Just my $.02 worth ($1.39 after taxes, shipping and handling) Jim (Just a guy who likes to build stuff) ------- Re: the moment of truth.... Posted by: "Terry" togle0131x~xxbellsouth.net Date: Sun Oct 23, 2011 10:44 am ((PDT)) Chet: Tilt tables with straight alignment pins will eventually lose their accuracy over time as the pin and hole wear and become loose. Reaming the hole with a tapered reamer and inserting the corresponding tapered dowel will do wonders for restoring the alignment accuracy. Terry ------- Re: Cross Slide Nut for Boxford 8" Shaper. [Metal_Shapers] Posted by: "David G. LeVine" dlevinex~xxspeakeasy.net Date: Mon Jan 23, 2012 8:40 am ((PST)) On 01/22/2012 05:31 PM, stevtalbot wrote: > Panic Panic, I need a cross slide nut for an 8" Boxford shaper in the UK. The cross slide screw is 5/8" Dia. and the ACME thread is 10TPI LEFT HAND. (Metric machine!) Any opinions on the best material for this nut? Any suggestions gratefully received. < Bronze, brass or zinc alloy (ZA-xx or Zamak(SP?)), with bronze being the first choice. If you make one, make a few before you tear down the setup, if you ever need another replacement, you will be thrilled that you did. You can recoup part (or all) of your cost by selling some of the spares on eBay. BTW, Acme taps are expensive! Figure $100(US) each at a minimum. When you are done with your tap (remember to make yourself a few spare nuts), sell it on eBay for a bit less than you spent on it. Dave 8{) ------- From: Steve Talbot Sent: Monday, 23 January 2012, 17:10 Subject: Re: [Metal_Shapers] Cross Slide Nut for Boxford 8" Shaper. Thanks Dave, that's certainly one way. ------- Re: Cross Slide Nut for Boxford 8" Shaper. Posted by: "Jim Cozens" jim.cozensx~xxyahoo.com Date: Mon Jan 23, 2012 10:00 am ((PST)) Steve, RDGtools have 10TPI ACME L/H tapes for £13.75. If you're making a couple of nuts or just one rough, screwcut first and finish off with the tap. It'll preserve the life of the tap. Jim ------- Re: Cross Slide Nut for Boxford 8" Shaper. Posted by: "Alan" abartzx~xxgmail.com Date: Mon Jan 23, 2012 10:49 am ((PST)) Hi, For what its worth, I have successfully sand cast replacement nuts using Zamack (zinc aluminum alloy) for machine tools and a heavy duty vice. Use the original screw as the core, coated with high temp never seize. Another method used was to turn a slightly oversized "core screw" to help allow for needed clearances. Alan ------- Re: Cross Slide Nut for Boxford 8" Shaper. Posted by: "Steve Talbot" steve.talbot2-jodelx~xxtiscali.co.uk Date: Mon Jan 23, 2012 12:18 pm ((PST)) Hi Alan: Thanks for your advice. Problem is the existing nut is stuck on the shaft. I moved the table a little too far towards the operator and the nut came off the cross slide screw. Even though I was very careful not to try forcing the screw back on and even disassembled the table & feed etc. there is no way it will feed back onto the screw, so I will have to cut it off, and lose the pattern. Regards, Steve T ------- Re: Cross Slide Nut for Boxford 8" Shaper. Posted by: "Gary Bauer" garybauer46x~xxyahoo.com Date: Mon Jan 23, 2012 11:07 am ((PST)) Steve, If you have access to a thread cutting lathe.... make your own 10 TPI LH Acme tap from plain steel!!! Those feed nuts are not hardened steel. They are made of rather soft stuff like bronze or pot metal (even plastic). A home-made special tap is not an exotic item. Another solution is to single-point thread the nut on a lathe using a hand ground threading bit. Check the thread cutter form against a fresh, unworn area of the cross feed screw itself as a guage. This a great training for a model engineer!!! There are numerous articles and videos on the internet showing single point threading on a lathe. Gary in AZ ------- Re: Cross Slide Nut for Boxford 8" Shaper. Posted by: "Steve Talbot" steve.talbot2-jodelx~xxtiscali.co.uk Date: Mon Jan 23, 2012 12:22 pm ((PST)) Thanks Gary. I was looking for the easy way out. I was in the process of making a tool & cutter grinder as my ability to shape HSS cutters is pathetic. Mind you I would probably be good at diamond cutting with all those facets!! Still may have found the source for a tap at reasonable cost. Regards, Steve T ------- Re: What can we do with 1-2-3 blocks? [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: "jerdalx~xxsbcglobal.net" Date: Fri Mar 30, 2012 10:27 pm ((PDT)) Rick Sparber wrote: >> I would like to write an article on all of the cool things that can be >> done with a pair of 1-2-3 blocks. So far I have: >> Calibration blocks for 1", 2", 3", 2+2 = 4", 2+3 = 5", and 3+3 = 6" >> Using the internal holes: bolt them together to form a knee >> Run a bolt through one of the threaded holes to give a jack >> Support work piece for machining I needed to get the bottom of the old drill-press vise that came with my shaper #1 flat and aligned with the jaws..... So, I clamped down a 123 block on the shaper table, flipped over the vise and clamped it tightly to the block, and proceeded to "plane off" the bottom surface of the vise to a nice level and reasonably squared-up surface. Worked fine thereafter. Since then, I have fund other uses in setups, but that was possibly the most unusual. JT ------- Re: Shaper Tooling [Metal_Shapers] Posted by: "ianmessenger1048" meschirox~xxbigpond.com Date: Fri May 11, 2012 9:16 am ((PDT)) "siempre02" wrote: > Incidently my machine vice /machine has errors also and does not cut > true square/perpendicular. Regards David HI, the shaper is a wonderful machine that can "fix" itself. Set the vice up accurately on the table with the angle protractor zeroed using a dial gauge mounted in the tool holder(or use a blank tool and feeler gauges) to align vice jaw with machine stroke. Adjust and test down feed the same way and when you are happy with everything, just machine the jaws true. I won a pile of large Norex carbide tipped lathe tools with 20mm and 25mm shanks, so I just put them in the shaper and reduced the width to 15mm to fit the tool holder. The beauty of the shaper as compared to a mill is that you can use anything that will cut metal that will fit in the tool holder. Dont be shy. Try anything. You will surprise yourself. Ian ------- Atlas Shaper felt oilers and neoprene wipers [Metal_Shapers] Posted by: "GJR" gjrepeshx~xxyahoo.com Date: Fri Aug 10, 2012 11:21 am ((PDT)) My shaper is missing some of the felt oilers and neoprene wipers. I emailed Clausing and found out that these parts are no longer available. They sent the drawings so I have the sizing. Although the drawings mention the material, they don't specify any grade. For felt I have seen recommendations for F-1 and F-5 grade. I have not seen any recommendations on neoprene -- to be specific the durometer measurement which I assume addresses the flexibility of the material. I will probably order from McMaster-Carr. If anyone has specific recommendations on the felt and/or the neoprene, I would like to hear from you. Thanks Gary R. ------- Re: Atlas Shaper felt oilers and neoprene wipers Posted by: "David G. LeVine" dlevinex~xxspeakeasy.net Date: Fri Aug 10, 2012 1:24 pm ((PDT)) There are more modern wiper materials with similar characteristics which may be useful if the correct neoprene is not readily available, like urethane. Good polyurethane is tougher than neoprene and may be less affected by coolants and/or solvents you use, but make sure it is of similar durometer or you can get issues like chip embedding. Of course, if the original material is available, you do not need to experiment. Some synthetics are clear or amber, which allows you to visually inspect for embedded swarf, which is a big winner. Brass has also been used as a wiper, but it needs careful setup to ensure it has proper clearance and it can be less effective. Since the originals are no longer available, I would suggest that alternatives are worth discussing, but ANY change can have undesirable side effects. Dave 8{) ------- Re: Atlas Shaper felt oilers and neoprene wipers Posted by: "Doc" n8as1x~xxaol.com docn8as Date: Fri Aug 10, 2012 2:02 pm ((PDT)) i have used felt from an old mens fedora hat, & felt weather stripping, which is less dense ....check w/ your wife for a throw away felt hat & save your money for tooling ....my opinion & it cud be plain ignorance is that "es macht nichts" what is used as long as it shoves debris out of the way w/ out damaging ways ...my pre 1862 EGould shaper, 1895 Reed 14 inch & 1902 steptoe 16 inch shapers never had wipers & are today still functional, in use, & decently accurate ...can't remember if 14 inch 1916 Monarch A downstairs has factory wipers, maybe not ...flat ways may may require more effort to avoid trapping shavings. that said, the fudge factor may be that HSM usage is NOT manufacturing usage. best wishes doc ------- Re: Atlas Shaper felt oilers and neoprene wipers....update Posted by: "GJR" gjrepeshx~xxyahoo.com Date: Sat Aug 11, 2012 9:42 am ((PDT)) I sent an email to Durofelt asking their suggested grade of felt. Their response recommended F-1. McMaster-Carr sells neoprene so determining the correct flexibility is the next issue. Thanks for the input. Gary R. ------- Top die meterial [Metal_Shapers] Posted by: "p4ul1234" winnaarspoortx~xxgmail.com Date: Fri Aug 10, 2012 11:22 am ((PDT)) Hi guys. I started working on my Alba A1 and one of the parts that is completely missing is the T bolt, bush and Top die that drives the Rocking arm. It looks like someone switched on the motor with the RAM stuck and broke the rocking arm as well as a piece of the bull gear. I know that the Top die is originally made out of brass but a good friend of mine who owns a small engineering workshop recommended that I could use nylon. He reckons it is much more durable and a lot cheaper and easier to find. Any thoughts on this? Best regards P ------- Re: Top die meterial Posted by: "David G. LeVine" dlevinex~xxspeakeasy.net Date: Fri Aug 10, 2012 1:32 pm ((PDT)) Nylon or acetyl (Delrin) may work well. Both machine more easily than brass, but may be weaker. Of course, replacing a Top die made from nylon will be cheaper than replacing a ram if the Top die is strong enough to resist breakage. I don't know if Nylon or Delrin is better, but things like Nylatron may even be better. ------- Re: Top die meterial Posted by: "Bill" billfx~xxexemail.com.au Date: Sat Aug 11, 2012 9:46 am ((PDT)) I am considering replacing the worn die block on my Douglas 10 shaper, and looking for a material more wallet-friendly than brass or bronze. I have never liked machining nylon. Also, it changes dimension signi- ficantly with changes in moisture content, which can be a nuisance if you are in a climate with varying humidity (like Sydney). Delrin is much more stable, is more rigid (so does not deform as much under load) and also machines very nicely. I understand Nylatron is a trade name for a particular formulation of nylon manufactured by Quadrant Plastics. My only reservation about plastics materials is that they are not nearly as rigid as brass, so a die block will deform more under load and possibly wear more in the middle than at the ends, although the low cost and ease of machining makes replacement easy. Apparently linen bakelite ("Tufnol")has sometimes used to reface machine slideways and if available, a block of that that may be another option. Regards, Bill ------- Re: Top die meterial Posted by: "David G. LeVine" dlevinex~xxspeakeasy.net Date: Sat Aug 11, 2012 1:22 pm ((PDT)) Nylatron is filled with molybdenum disulfide, this makes it as different as epoxy and carbon fiber. Wikipedia says: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nylatron > Nylatron is used in rotary leveractuators > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Actuator where unusual shapes are > required. They are also used as heavy-duty caster wheels, normally as > a replacement for cast iron or forged steel. Anything which can replace cast iron or forged steel in casters is pretty tough. I have machined nylatron, and it machines very well with negligible tool wear. Probably the moly powder acts as a lubricant. It is more expensive than nylon and may (in this case) be worth it. Dave 8{) ------- Drawings for Vicroy and Royal 10 inch shapers [Metal_Shapers] Posted by: "john" John.Burridgex~xxfsmail.net Date: Wed Dec 26, 2012 5:08 am ((PST)) Hi all with either Viceroy 250 or the earlier Realm-Royal 10 inch shapers. I link to their drawing files if any of you require spares or parts that you may need to remake if missing or damaged. http://www.denfordata.com/bb/viewtopic.php?f=50&t=3668&sid=9f26ab9a948 e9b2f0d148c6cec4b2b3c It does not give all of the parts but there maybe some that you require. Regards John ------- Re: South bend shaper - removind the oil manifold [Metal_Shapers] Posted by: "Tucker Tomlinson" tuckertomlinsonx~xxgmail.com Date: Sat Jan 5, 2013 9:41 am ((PST)) On Thu, Nov 29, 2012 at 1:01 PM, Mark Hofer markahoferx~xxmac.com wrote: >>> Southbend photo album you can see photos of a disassembled pump (Oil Pump Parts 1 and 2). Regretfully I did not discover this until after I'd reassembled all. Otherwise I would probably have unmounted the pump with this guidance in hand. A very helpful and detailed explanation can be found at message #13373 entitled South Bend Oil Pump - not working. <<< On Thu, Nov 29, 2012 at 1:58 PM, Tucker Tomlinson tuckertomlinsonx~xxgmail.com wrote: >> Thanks Mark, for the very detailed post! I think that message 13373, is the same one I found the de-soldering reference in, and it is indeed very helpful. I have found a few photos online of a disassembled oil pump on the practicalmachinists site, and the army manual has a good close up diagram in the section on adjusting the oil feed, but will definitely check out that gallery. Now that I'm thinking about it I will try to take some of my own during the process so I can add to the group knowledge here. Re the oil lines: Your experience on not re-soldering the way feed lines is something I will definitely try out. Unlike your case where the pump/monifold was in working shape, I really want to find out why the valve pin is jammed in the manifold block. The second pin that controls oil to the gib side slid out with no problems. I'm more concerned about the manifold right now, but I will definitely take your advice and clean out the lines while I'm at it. If I can't find anything to clean out the lines I will definitely contact you, thanks for the offer of some fishing line. Re: removing the gib: I have gotten the ram pulled all the way forward, which is how I've been reaching in to pull on the valve-pin for the oil manifold. After hearing a few warnings on shearing that oil tube off I'm not to comfortable pulling out the gib with the ram on until I see how the back of it looks in person. I guess I will just have to reach into the machine and have a feel for that set screw. I'm hoping that the tube to carry oil past the gib is still in there, but I may need to replace it. Thanks for all the advice and tips, Hopefully I will have a working shaper by this weekend. Cheers << On Fri, Nov 30, 2012 at 1:59 PM, Tucker Tomlinson tuckertomlinsonx~xxgmail.com wrote: > Hi all, Just an update for anyone following this topic. For the oil pump removal: I used a butane torch to de-solder the oil feed tubes, and that weren't very easily. To minimize risks of the residual oil igniting, I wiped all the nearby surfaces with acetone, and then lay a damp rag over the internals to block any heat or errant sparks from getting to the oil coat on the bottom of the shaper. It took about 15sec with the torch to pop the feed lines loose, so there really wasn't much heat applied to the casting. Once the feed lines were out, pump removal was easy. The valve pin seems to have corroded into the manifold block, which lead to the head shearing when someone tried to adjust it. It popped loose with an arbor press applied to the 1mm or so that was proud on the back of the manifold block. It looked like a fine chip had gotten sucked up and lodged in the pin, restricting flow. I also blew out each of the feed tubes and they all seem to be unclogged. I'm in the process of turning down a new pin on the lathe to replace this bad one. The other original pin seems to work but I may turn down a second replacement just so I have two fresh rods to avoid any new corrosion issues. These pins have a slight (about 10thousandths ) taper, starting at approx 0.21in at the front of the block and tapering to about 0.20in at the back. I also disassembled the pump body. Everything seems OK there except the check-valve. This has a long spring(part # 120) held down by the 'flanged connector' (part #123) manifold. Under normal operation, the spring presses a ball into a seat. When the pump pushes, the ball lifts allowing oil up into the lines. When pumping stops, the ball seats down, preventing oil from flowing back down the lines and creating an air gap. In my pump the ball had popped up inside the spring, and couldn't seal against the pump body any more. I pulled it out and crimped down the end of the spring slightly to prevent this from happening again. For the gib removal: I felt around under the rocker arm, and it turns out my shaper has a square head set screw instead of an allen head. All I had to do was get a small crescent on it and it loosened right up. Mark's instinct to adjust the flow at the pump was dead on as there seems to be nothing wrong with the tube from the casting through the gib. There was actually a glob of heavy glue-like grease around the tube sealing against the gib and preventing oil from flowing back between the gib and the main casting. I think my over-oiling problem was just due to the valve set wide open at the pump. The other contributing factor may have been that the machined cross in the gib which distributes oil was gummed up with oil filled with iron particles, which may have caused fresh oil to just ooze right out the top of the gib rather than distributing nicely. I will update later with photo's and any comments on re-assembly. Cheers Tucker < Just in case anyone needs to do something similar in the future I thought I'd post the final resolution of my south bend 7" oil feed issues: I had a problem when I first -re inserted the oil feed lines into the brass plugs which feed the main ways. Mark Hofer had suggested that I could bend the copper lines slightly and that the pressure would keep them in place, but I completely forgot this and set about re-soldering them. First I heated up the brass using a butane torch until I could use a solder-sucker to remove the old solder, and then I pushed the feed tubes in and re-soldered with a flux core solder. All seemed well until I tried running the pump by poking the pump piston with a stick. At that point I got no feed to the main ways, despite plenty of feed to the bull gear and slider. The problem was that I had pushed the feed lines into the brass plugs too far, and the fresh solder had then plugged up the opening into the casting. After a quick de-solder and re-solder all is now well. The last problem I have is that I couldn't find a heavy enough grease to keep the gib side oil from flowing back behind the gib and up onto the top of the main casting. This sounds a lot like the problem Mark described where he needed to turn down the oil feed to the main ways to keep from flooding the return catches. I'm going to try replacing the heavy grease with something like rubber cement in the future which should solve the problem. For now though I'm going to start playing with my newly functional shaper: First project: quick change toolpost for a lathe. Cheers! ------- South bend 7" tool height lock not working [Metal_Shapers] Posted by: "Tucker Tomlinson" tuckertomlinsonx~xxgmail.com Date: Wed Jan 9, 2013 11:08 am ((PST)) Hi Folks, I'm looking for some advice on my South Bend 7" shaper. After getting the oil feed all working, I set about testing the machine's capabilities on some mild steel blocks. (Incidentally mobile home shim blocks are a cheap way of getting some fair sized steel chunks to play with for only a few $.) What I'm finding is that the whole compound slide gets drawn down as the machine cuts, advancing by as much as 10thou per inch of horizontal cutting. This means that a cut that starts out making nice clean cuts with no chatter, quickly starts chattering and digging in. The machine has a lock for the compound feed which is just one of the gib screws, that you use to over-tighten the gib, which should prevent sliding. In My case this mechanism doesn't seem to work well enough. You can feel that the lock is engaged when you try to manually feed, but the compound still advances under cutting. I'm hoping that someone out there might have seen a similar issue and have a solution, or knows the stupid thing I overlooked during setup. Any thoughts would be appreciated. Cheers Tucker ------- Re: South bend 7" tool height lock not working Posted by: "Mark Hofer" markahoferx~xxmac.com Date: Wed Jan 9, 2013 12:10 pm ((PST)) Tucker: I have the same shaper and my 'lock' doesn't really lock either although I have not noticed any travel in the head, but then I have also not 'pushed' the cutting bit very hard. In fact, to compensate for the weak lock, I made a second knurled brass lock screw knobby thingy and now I loosen and tighten both and that seems to be just enough to hold it in place although even after tightening, I can still move the head if I want without too much force. To be fair though, rebuilding/scraping my compound, its screw, gibs and mating surfaces are on the 'list of things to do' and I suspect that once the parts get properly fitted (I have a replacement for the entire compound with screw, etc in the wings awaiting this effort) then a tightening of the gib screw will work much better. Note that due to the travel of the head beyond the short base, much of the upper gib can get exposed and overtightening the upper gib screw can easily bend the gib. So in short, I don't think your experience is terribly unique. Try an extra middle tightening screw. I made mine on the lathe (and due to a PO putting thread inserts in some but not all gib screw holes, I actually had to make them in two different sizes!). For now it is holding so the shaper is getting use. M ------- Re: South bend 7" tool height lock not working Posted by: "Tucker Tomlinson" tuckertomlinsonx~xxgmail.com Date: Wed Jan 9, 2013 12:54 pm ((PST)) Thanks for the tip. I had actually noticed that the gib was bent during a previous dis-assembly, but didn't realize the cause. I'll have a look at adding an additional lock screw and see if that helps Cheers ------- Re: South bend 7" tool height lock not working Posted by: "Doc" n8as1x~xxaol.com docn8as Date: Wed Jan 9, 2013 1:22 pm ((PST)) the only effective way i have found for accurate depth of cut is to note the dial for amt needed & crank down beyond, then back up to the number this removes the back lash ( slop ) in the slide, then lock up the slide ...now you have a lock & also the feed screw holding the slide ....this shud do it ...if not, TIGHTEN the gibscrews so it takes some effort to move the slide, then when locking it, it shud hold. best wishes doc ------- Re: South bend 7" tool height lock not working Posted by: "Tucker Tomlinson" tuckertomlinsonx~xxgmail.com Date: Wed Jan 9, 2013 2:55 pm ((PST)) Thanks Doc, going past and then pulling back up is a really good idea, I'll have to give that a shot. I'm leery of cranking down on the thumb screw any harder because the screw is mighty thin (looks like an 8-32 thread pattern to me) and I'm worried I'll just snap the screw off trying to torque it down. I've already cranked it to the point where you feel real resistance trying to turn the leadscrew past the backlash. I think if I need more clamping after your first suggestion I'm going to add another thumbscrew like Mark suggested. Cheers ------- NOTE TO FILE: This discussion about a particular shaper problem suddenly completely changed to one about grinds for shaper bits. But unfortunately no one changed the thread subject. Such innocent changes [sometimes called thread hijacking] can make someone else's future search for the new discussion topic impossible to find, if their search is made for words in the thread subject line. I have put the rest of this conversation in the text file here called "Metal Shaper Bits and Toolholders" and it starts: [Metal_Shapers] [Discussion changed now to rake angles for metal shaper bits.] Re: South bend 7" tool height lock not working Posted by: "Rexarino" rexarinox~xxgmail.com Date: Wed Jan 9, 2013 4:07 pm ((PST)) ------- Re: Drilling Out Broken Toolpost Bolt [Metal_Shapers] Posted by: "Don & Mary Barth" dmbarthx~xxhughes.net Date: Wed Nov 20, 2013 6:49 am ((PST)) >> I recently broke the retainer bolt on the AMMCO tool post, lantern, and then broke an easy out trying to get the broken bolt. Well no luck the easy out, hard out, broke off. They are so brittle they don't take much torque to break. Not being able to find a new or used post I sent it to my brother in law who owns National Diamond Lab in LA. He drilled it out and saved the post's original threads. Anyone needing diamond tools or work, let me know and I will set you up with National Diamond. Don << On Nov 19, 2013, Glen Linscheid wrote: > Don, Sandvik makes special drills for that, it's easy. Cheap; A common concrete carbide tipped drill has done the trick for me in the past. Less cheap; http://www.ebay.com/itm/B-A-SP-4-Hard-Steel-Drill-Bit-RH-3-16-In-3-In -L-/330906599725?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4d0b92012d Find the size you need, there are many sizes available in ebay. More expensive are the Sandvik Cormorant drills, http://www.amazon.com/Sandvik-Coromant-Carbide-Uncoated-Strai ght/dp/B0055860LA With any of these you will probably want to take a small ball shaped mounted stone (Grinder, in a Dremel is fine) and make a nice divot right in the center of the broken off area, then drill it out. Glen < My brother inlaw did use a carbide bit to drill out the easy out. He held the lantern in a collet for center and spotted the center with a diamond drill. Thanks for the tip about carbide. This isn't going to happen again. Good-by easy outs. Don ------- Re: Drilling Out Broken Toolpost Bolt Posted by: "Nelson Collar" nel2larx~xxyahoo.com Date: Wed Nov 20, 2013 11:11 am ((PST)) I love to hear, buy a drill bit, and that will bring it out. Save your money, take any bit you have and grind it so it will cut in reverse. Now you have a bit to, and with a little luck bring out the broken piece. And by the way, the tool post does not need to be that tight. When replacing the bolt go with the best bolt you can buy. That way it should never happen again. My Chinabult was notorious for breaking bolts, their grading system is not the same as ours. Nelson Collar ------- Re: Drilling Out Broken Toolpost Bolt Posted by: "Don & Mary Barth" dmbarthx~xxhughes.net Date: Wed Nov 20, 2013 11:44 am ((PST)) I plan on replacing the bolt with a grade 8 bolt. ------- Re: Drilling Out Broken Toolpost Bolt Posted by: "David G. LeVine" dlevinex~xxspeakeasy.net Date: Wed Nov 20, 2013 12:39 pm ((PST)) Another option, BEFORE you break a bolt, center drill it in a lathe, once there is a tiny (1/16" in a 3/8" bolt for example) center hole, if it breaks, it becomes MUCH easier to drill out. Also, Allen bolts are better than grade 8 bolts, and are generally harder to break. Dave 8{) ------- Re: Drilling Out Broken Toolpost Bolt Posted by: "Doc" n8as1x~xxaol.com docn8as Date: Wed Nov 20, 2013 2:31 pm ((PST)) pls check the hardness of the intended grade 8 bolt w/ a file, if it skates over it, discard it ... i have had them snap due to not drawing down enuf. best wishes doc ------- Re: Drilling Out Broken Toolpost Bolt Posted by: "Glen Linscheid" partsproductionx~xxcenturylink.net Date: Wed Nov 20, 2013 6:18 pm ((PST)) #1. He said it was hard. Yes, you can drill out a broken off bolt up to about 45 RC with a HSS drill if you turn the RPM way down. Use an HP cutting oil like Moly Dee. To me hard means more than 45 RC, but I don't know what it actually is. #2. Typically, unless I didn't understand the situation, the bottom side of a busted off clamp bolt is swelled out because of years of use clamping tools, and they won't back out with a LH drill bit. The best way to get it out is down into the hole, again, unless he was talking about some other situation. #3. I had got a pile of used drill bits at an auction, one was a RH spiral HSS drill ground LH, funniest thing I ever saw and no possible way it could cut since the flutes describe the shear angle. I can't believe money is so tight people can't afford a $3 or $4 drill bit that is actually made for drilling hard materials. I do agree with the OP about "Easy outs", I've always called them hard outs, and have made a lot of money fixing screw ups people have made busting them off inside a bolt! [later message] I forgot to imagine the obvious, there was probably a tool holder in the tool post. You can't run the screw out the bottom when there is a tool holder there. But my limited experience with lantern type posts is that the clamping end gets swelled out and cannot be run out the top, unless you find a way to cut the business end off. ------- Re: Drilling Out Broken Toolpost Bolt Posted by: "Don & Mary Barth" dmbarthx~xxhughes.net Date: Thu Nov 21, 2013 7:27 am ((PST)) The tool holder was in the lantern and the bolt was broke off flush with the top of the lantern. It came to me that way. I know enough to not over torque the bolts and break them off. My error was not drilling out the soft bolt to the minor thread diameter. I didn't have a way to center it for drilling at the time so I decided a smaller hole would be less risky and tried to back out the bolt with a hard out. Big mistake!!! It broke off flush and didn't have any length left to grab onto. The carbide concrete drills are harder than the hard outs and work fine if you grind a center hole before drilling. Diamond drills are best if you have free access to them as I do. I don't think any of this backward stuff will work because of the flutes. If the hard out has a rough edge then a smaller regular drill at very slow speed will grab and crush out the brittle hard outs or broken taps. Don ------- Re: Drilling Out Broken Toolpost Bolt Posted by: "Glen Linscheid" partsproductionx~xxcenturylink.net Date: Thu Nov 21, 2013 9:43 am ((PST)) Don, All in the past now huh? But your experiences may help someone else. Many times when a customer brings in a broken off bolt my first attempt is to weld a nut on it, this works even when the bolt is broken off below flush, but it doesn't always work, maybe 50% of the time. After the nut is welded on as it is cooling a whack with a hammer loosens things up, the heat breaks down rust, Kroil is applied, then a wrench. If the base metal of the part the bolt is broken off in is non ferrous and one has the time you can soak it in nitric acid and the ferrous easy out and bolt will dissolve. There is a commercial product here in the states called "Tap-Out" that is composed of nitric acid too, and for the same purpose. Not applicable here but nice to know anyway. But drilling the offending bolt or tap out seems the most sure way in my experience, I use the Sandvik Hard Cut drills. Even 30% under tap drill diameter will usually relieve internal pressure of a broken off bolt enough that it can after words (Cuss words, grin) be chiseled out. That's another tool I've used a lot, not big old chisels but tiny ones made from HSS round shanks of broken off end mills. I just grind a chisel end on it and use it on the periphery of what is left, both the shock and the force in the correct direction will often start the bugger out. The small chisels are 1 1/5 to 2" long and a 60 degree grind works well. Please wear safety glasses if you use HSS tools as chisels. That's another thing to remember, direction! If one spends time trying to remove a broken fastener from a hole only to find out it is a left hand thread! I try to see a bit of the original thread to tell if it's RH or LH. Always the first thing I do, before anything else, is heat the part up with a mini torch and douse it with Kroil. Kroil holds two titles in my shop, the best penetrating oil on the market and the smelliest liquid! The base metal is brought up to 150-200 degrees, and if possible the offending bolt is brought up much hotter (Hard outs are normally carbon steel, and if you can get enough heat on them can be annealed or tempered down in hardness) then, after it cools down to 120 degrees or so the Kroil is put on. I know not everyone can afford it but I have a plastic organizer drawer that has left handed screw machine drills of many sizes. Of course screw machine drills being shorter means they are less likely to wander, and also they normally have a "split point" or what used to be called a "Crank shaft point", that makes it much more aggressive in the cut. Often the broken off fastener will back right out. They wouldn't work in this case though. Thanks for reading my novel on removal of broken fasteners. (grin) ------- Re: Drilling Out Broken Toolpost Bolt Posted by: "Doc" n8as1x~xxaol.com docn8as Date: Mon Nov 25, 2013 11:27 am ((PST)) FWIW pretty simple lathe job to make one, fi you have a mill, if not chain drilling (spacing the holes so when you drill BETWEEn them you take out most of the xcess...) & a bastard file will clean up FAST you can put the end curve on using transverse & cross feed at same time or just use an angle grinder while spinning it, finish w/ file & abrasive, ..file the slot from both sides to keep it flat easier....just made one last winter for the Barnes 9x24. best wishes doc ------- Re: Drilling Out Broken Toolpost Bolt Posted by: "Glen Linscheid" partsproductionx~xxcenturylink.net Date: Mon Nov 25, 2013 2:06 pm ((PST)) Yeah, considerably more difficult to make the hardened serrated rocker plate and the hardened ring. ------- Re: Drilling Out Broken Toolpost Bolt Posted by: "Doc" n8as1x~xxaol.com docn8as Date: Mon Nov 25, 2013 4:46 pm ((PST)) yes.... it is more work ......it has been maybe 30 yrs, but i have made & hardened a rocker, but never made a rocker ring ...IIRC i drew the temper to a blue w/ the torch .....i did not know he needed those items. the tool post i made for the Barnes did not need either of the parts ... i threaded a base & threaded a top base to screw into the bottom one, imitating the original design ...it adjusts to center quite quickly. for me, lantern tool posts work much better sans rocker .....way more stable ...a rocker base has to be really wrenched up to be stable & even then ? .....there were times i forgot & set the bit left of center, take a heavy DOC & watch the part turn to scrap as it moves & overcuts....ugh! FWIW ....one answer instead to a Quick Change tool; post ....for my monarch A, i have a pile of armstrong type tool holders so i dont have to change bits ...the 15-20 deg angled slot allows vertical positioning w/ in limits ..& i have a couple "dougnuts " that i slip over the post ... this way i am centered up as soon as i replace the holder & i have a solid flat surface ....the "SPECIAL" tool holders need an additional doughnut. best wishes doc ------- Re: Drilling Out Broken Toolpost Bolt Posted by: "Glen Linscheid" partsproductionx~xxcenturylink.net Date: Tue Nov 26, 2013 1:05 am ((PST)) Doc, No, he didn't say he needed them. I was just musing about how the post itself is pretty easy by comparison. Gln ------- NOTE TO FILE: To see some gorgeous pictures of machines that Dennis has restored, be sure to visit the link in this next message. Great stuff! ------- Re: Logan scraping Posted by: "Dennis Turk" dennis.turk2x~xxfrontier.com dturkcars Date: Fri Nov 29, 2013 9:15 am ((PST)) Glen wrote: > As reported earlier my beautiful Logan 8" shaper came to me destroyed by the truckers. And, as also reported I hope to get a chance after the dust settles to repair it. As near as I can tell there was no scraping done on this machine, and a restorer said the paint job looks terrible. I'm positive the machine is as shipped from the factory and has had very little if any use, so I'm wondering if towards the end workmanship fell off. Does anyone else have an original Logan shaper that has milled dovetails with no scraping? Was the paint poor in all of them or just towards the end? The photos of the crashed Logan are in the jumbled photo section. Thanks, Glen < When Glen stopped by Turk Mfg this week we were looking at the last Dalton I restored. This one is serial number 127 built and installed in a carage house on Long Island NY in 1917. Here in my home shop I am in the process of restoring the same model Lot 6 8 1/2 swing Dalton that is serial number 7014 built in 1929. The Dalton lathe company failed in the stock market crash of 1929 or rather the business fell off so bad that Hubert just shut the Sound Beach Ct plant down and paid off all the creditors from his own fortune. What I have found is the 1917 machine was a wonder of craftsmanship. Some beautiful scraping much of it just ornamental to enhance how the lathe looked. Other things were machined then ground either ID or OD and then polished. On the 1929 machine all the ornamental scraping was deleted. Bed was only lightly scraped to clean up the planer tool marks when the bed ways were formed. The front of the apron casting was roughly Blanchard ground not surface ground as the 1917 was. Parts that were machined or ground and polished on the 1917 the 1929 machine these parts had only required machining and the rest of the parts were left as cast with no finish on them at all. I even found a broken tap in one of the holes that held the rack gear to the bed. The person assembling the machine had cut the threaded end off the screw then center punched a bunch of dimples around the perimeter of the screw head and then dapped it into the counter bored hole. So Glen you might be correct. As your shaper was at the end of production just like this lathe I am working on they were just pushing them out the door trying to garner as much revenue as they could. By the way if anyone is interested in looking at some of the stuff I have done you can take a look at my flicker photo site at this link. The first picture is a little video I made of the 1917 Dalton. http://www.flickr.com/photos/45888076x~xxN00/?saved=1 Dennis Turk ------- Re: Logan scraping Posted by: "Glen Linscheid" partsproductionx~xxcenturylink.net Date: Sat Nov 30, 2013 10:54 am ((PST)) Glen Linscheid on November 29, 2013 wrote: > I was hoping that someone who knew they had an unrestored Logan shaper > would look, and report whether or not there are scraper marks. > But I did email Logan actuators. Charles' idea bore fruit. I got this email from Logan: "Logan Engineering Co. did not scrape the bedways on the shapers or lathes. The paint would have been applied the same way through all of the production at Logan Engineering Co. There is a chance this was made by Brodhead Garret after they purchased the line from Logan Engineering Co." Thanks Charles! ------- SB 7 Cross slide removal [MetalShapers] Posted by: rob.mueller2x~xxhp.com rmuell01 Date: Fri Dec 13, 2013 8:11 am ((PST)) I did check the archives and found a few posts, but..... The cross slide does not slide up because of some interference. I have removed the worm gear and the screw collar is unscrewed so it is loose. I've removed the elevating screw nut as well. Do I have to remove the cross feed screw as well? Thanks for your help. -------- Re: SB 7 Cross slide removal Posted by: "Joe R" jromasx~xxcolumbus.rr.com Date: Fri Dec 13, 2013 12:55 pm ((PST)) Rob. Looking at the parts manual from the files section I see nothing called a “cross slide”. But I do see a “Cross Rail” part # S7-4 is this what you’re talking about? The lift screw for it, #S7-43, has a worm gear on the bottom and if that’s the gear you’re talking about than the No. 3 Woodruff Key for the gear might still be in the lift screw keeping the cross rail and lift screw from raising up through the “base” # S7-2A and off. It’s been a long while since I had mine apart. Wait until you get to the taking the “Ram Assembly #S7-3X” off When mentioning parts, a part number from the manual would help. Hope this helps Joe ------- Re: SB 7 Cross slide removal Posted by: rob.mueller2x~xxhp.com rmuell01 Date: Fri Dec 13, 2013 2:01 pm ((PST)) Yep. Cross Rail. I have the elevating screw 'worm gear' removed and the collar is loose. I have tried driving the elevating screw down, but it is either a tight interference fit or I'm not driving it with enough force. (I did notice that some one stated that their elevating screw just slid out.). Back to the original question, do I need to remove the cross feed screw from the rail before the rail will slide all the way off? I can slide the cross rail near the top of the dovetail and then there is some resistance. ------- Re: SB 7 Cross slide removal Posted by: "Glen Linscheid" partsproductionx~xxcenturylink.net Date: Fri Dec 13, 2013 3:52 pm ((PST)) BTW, I saw in an old shaper group files where a guy put a needle thrust bearing between that collar and the base. I bought one with the intention of installing it some day, should reduce the effort of raising the table considerably. The advantage you have is that you will have yours apart and can simply drop it in. That thrust bearing for the SB7 screw, about half way down is a photo: http://www.neme-s.org/shapers/columns/shaper_column_31.html ------- Re: SB 7 Cross slide removal Posted by: burkheimerx~xxgmail.com ar1911 Date: Sun Dec 15, 2013 6:56 am ((PST)) The elevation screw has to come out before the cross slide can be removed. The whole thing is like a chinese puzzle. Might be why mine is still completely apart ;) ------- Re: SB 7 Cross slide removal Posted by: rob.mueller2x~xxhp.com rmuell01 Date: Sun Dec 15, 2013 7:35 am ((PST)) Did you have to drive the screw out with a punch? ------- Re: SB 7 Cross slide removal Posted by: burkheimerx~xxgmail.com Date: Mon Dec 16, 2013 5:01 am ((PST)) I don't recall, but I'm almost certain no real force was required, except maybe some judicious tapping. You just have to be sure you get all the pins out. Seems like one was a bit hard to get to. ------- [Metal_Shapers] Re: Bill in OKC has finally (after over 40 years!) gotten his own shaper Posted by: bigdukeonex~xxgmx.de johann_ohnesorg Date: Sun Jan 12, 2014 5:23 am ((PST)) Glen Linscheid wrote: >> You got a Lewis shaper? Bill in OKC wrote: > Glen Yes. Desktop job, needing some TLC, and I guess Bill took pity > on me. ;) So, Glen, wanna tell me how to do a full-up restore on a > kit-built shaper? As it seems, you prefer to do battle uphill ;) I envy you for all the nice work ahead. A tip, if you have to get rid of rust on small parts just throw them into a boiling solution of citric acid and let them boil for a little while. The surface will look blunt but there will be no rust afterwards. Leave them to dry and then, oil the stuff. Cheap and very effective. The bad thing: It won´t work on big parts, the solution needs to be hot or otherwise it´s very slow... Cheers, Johann ------- Re: Bill in OKC has finally (after over 40 years!) gotten his own sh Posted by: "oldstudentmsgt" wmrmeyersx~xxsbcglobal.net Date: Sun Jan 12, 2014 6:19 am ((PST)) Honestly, I'd have preferred one that was brand new, or fully restored, but the budget wouldn't tolerate that. Bill's known me for several years, and made me a deal I couldn't refuse. Icing on the cake is that it was previously possessed by a mutual friend we both miss, so it's sort of a legacy issue, too. Just happens I have a 55gal. drum in the back yard for electrolytic rust removal. As long as I remember to NOT reverse the leads, it's a great and safe way to remove rust, and doesn't pit the metal. (Reverse the leads, and it will pit it really, REALLY fast!) About a tablespoon per gallon of Sodium Carbonate, aka Washing Soda, and also used in adjusting PH in swimming pools, a non-computerized car battery charger, and some pieces of iron to use as electrodes in the stripping bath. It also removes paint and grease. And non-iron metals. I've actually done it when the temps outside were near freezing. Cold solution just takes a little longer. Google "electrolytic rust removal" and you'll get all kinds of info on it. I think I'll set up a 5 gal bucket to use inside the house. It does produce hydrogen, but not in great quantities. Washing soda is an alkali, but not as strong as sodium hydroxide. You can handle it bare handed, and reach down into the solution to pick up tools you've dropped if you need to without immediate danger to your skin, though I wash it off at the first opportunity to do so. Long exposure will dry your skin, and strip the oils out, so don't wanna do it if you don't need to, but it's not nearly as hazardous as sodium hydroxide. HTH! Bill in OKC ------- Re: Bill in OKC has finally (after over 40 years!) gotten his own sh Posted by: "Grant Erwin" gwex~xxtinyisland.com blue_metal_baby Date: Sun Jan 12, 2014 7:14 am ((PST)) If I may, a couple of comments on your electrolytic derusting technique: I hope your 55 gallon drum is one of those blue plastic ones. If it's made of steel, then if your cathodes (sacrificial iron strips) touch the tank then the tank itself will become a cathode, will rust, and may rust through, dumping a big mess into your driveway. Also, I have turned a few perfectly good garage sale car battery chargers into toast by running them long long over their max duty cycle doing electrolytic derusting. My advice would be to run it max 12 hours, then stop for an hour to let it thoroughly cool down, then start again until you're satisfied with the results. Finally, I have never really liked using steel or iron as the cathode material, because as it rusts it becomes less electrochemically active, i.e. its resistance goes way up. So in the beginning you might have a satisfactory current flow and come back to find it just a trickle. I'm not aware of any perfect cathodic material. Guys say use stainless but other guys say that can cause a bath to become contaminated with hexavalent chromium which is very cancer-causing. I often use lead sheet but some guys have told me to watch out for lead carbonate which is said to be very poisonous. I bought a bunch of old EDM electrode material which is just carbon, and this makes fine cathodic material except it gets eaten away and it turns the solution inky black. The last two derusting sessions I did I used lead sheet for one and carbon rod for the other. There are other reliable methods for removing rust: wire brushing wire wheel mounted on angle grinder or stationary spindle hand wire brush pneumatic needle gun (wear ear protection, don't do this on thin sheet metal) chemical soak acid pickle (for formerly galvanized parts only) lye/distilled water soak naval jelly phosphoric acid (e.g. Jasco Metal Prep, brushed on or immersed in) chelating agents (Evapo-Rust) blasting outdoor sandblasting (there are various media you can try) cabinet blasting (glass bead, walnut shell, baking soda, you name it) spot blasting with or without vacuum attachment barrel tumbling with or without various media, surfactants vibratory tumbling (again, large choice of media etc) application of hot carbon monoxide (O/A torch adjusted slightly rich - slow but works) I find for me it's always tempting to take something fully apart intending to completely clean each part and paint them all separately and polish the shiny bits and put it all back together. It's admirable but for me a deadly trap because many usable items have gotten stuck in the disassembled state and wound up getting tossed over the years. So consider doing spot cleanup/painting without disassembly or just using as is. Whew. Grant Erwin ------- Re: Bill in OKC has finally (after over 40 years!) gotten his own sh Posted by: "oldstudentmsgt" wmrmeyersx~xxsbcglobal.net Date: Sun Jan 12, 2014 7:54 am ((PST)) I drag the electrodes up and brush them off now and again, which restores their function quite a bit. I do have a blue barrel, originally acquired for water storage, so don't need to worry about that. Have considered using a steel barrel, cut and fit inside the plastic one, but decided not to. I've an old barrel-type barbecue that would be a great candidate for that sort of thing, except it's already nearly gone! You can, to some extent, control the current draw by controlling the amount of sodium carbonate in the barrel. Evaporative loss is more a concern, imo. I've not used it in several months (including well into last summer) and there is only about a third of a barrel of fluid in there right now. I have cut the top of the barrel off, and lay that over it to reduce evaporation, but as you can tell, it still happens. It happens faster when you are actually using it, so I have a hose run to the barrel (which is in my back yard, not on the driveway) for refilling and washing off splashes and such, as needed. I'm using one of the Sears 100amp-rated charger/ starter chargers, have never seen the current go over ten amps. With dirty electrodes, drops to about 2 or 3, but that still get the job done. I've considered using the little paper-element swimming pool filter that came with our cheap pool a few years ago to filter the solution and pick up the junk, as mine turns rusty red or sometimes even black without any carbon electrodes. I do generally check on it every hour or so, and only with the low current flows do I let it run over 12 hours or so. Started with an old charger, one I'd had for 30+ years, built-in amp meter, so I could watch the current draw. The big one also has a meter, and used to have a functioning timer, that died a few years before I started the ERR gig. Know what you mean about losing parts, I've done strip-downs before that had the same results, and I've got family members who seem to churn my workspace. :( My drill press has been in pieces for over two years now, but I think I've managed to keep all the pieces in few enough locations to not lose anything that hadn't already been lost. I need to cut a JT33 taper on the piece I put in place to get rid of the bend my little (6'8",300lb stone- mason) brother put in the quill about 20 years ago, and then re-assemble it, and replace one of the pulleys, the return spring & housing, and the motor mount. Those got lost before I got it. It's the one I learned to use a drill press on, back when I was about 52 years younger than I now am. Old Craftsman. Once I have all my stuff running, I'm golden! I just have to learn or relearn how to use it all! ;) Lathe (HF 7x10), Atlas MF mill, Craftsman floor drill press & bandsaw, ancient Craftsman stick welder, HF flux- core welder, oxy-acetylene & air-fuel torches, cutoff saw, three grinders, belt-disk sander, and finally a shaper. Bill in OKC ------- Re: Bill in OKC has finally (after over 40 years!) gotten his own sh Posted by: "Larry Fahnoe" fahnoex~xxFahnoeTech.com Date: Sun Jan 12, 2014 7:54 am ((PST)) Congratulations Bill! Reflecting on your 40 year comment, you might find the following Lewis story interesting/enlightening/amusing: http://www.neme-s.org/shapers/columns/shaper_column_67.html Larry ------- Re: Bill in OKC has finally (after over 40 years!) gotten his own sh Posted by: "oldstudentmsgt" wmrmeyersx~xxsbcglobal.net Date: Sun Jan 12, 2014 8:05 am ((PST)) Add "ironic" to your list, as well. ;) I graduated from high school in 1973, and I took machine shop that year, where I fell in love with the lathe and shaper. IIRC, theirs were South Bend, but I couldn't swear to it. The photos in that article will help me in working on mine, as well. Now I gotta go look at the knee and see if it has the boss for a v-groove! Thanks! Bill in OKC ------- Re: Bill in OKC has finally (after over 40 years!) gotten his own sh Posted by: "Glen Linscheid" partsproductionx~xxcenturylink.net Date: Sun Jan 12, 2014 9:54 am ((PST)) Johann, 1. where do you find citric acid? 2. What does "it will look blunt mean"? Thanks, always looking for new ways to undo and/or slow down rusting. Glen ------- Re: Bill in OKC has finally (after over 40 years!) gotten his own sh Posted by: "oldstudentmsgt" wmrmeyersx~xxsbcglobal.net Date: Sun Jan 12, 2014 9:57 am ((PST)) You can try it to find out, use lemon or lime juice. Also, try the canning area at your local grocery store. It is also, IIRC, used in "fruit fresh" products. HTH! Bill in OKC ------- Re: Bill in OKC has finally (after over 40 years!) gotten his own sh Posted by: "Grant Erwin" gwex~xxtinyisland.com Date: Sun Jan 12, 2014 10:58 am ((PST)) You can buy citric acid in small quantities in the spice section of your supermarket. Or, in slightly larger quantities, from home brewing supplies (where beer and wine makers shop). My guess as to 'blunt' is that an acid bath will yield a grey matte finish. Grant ------- Re: Bill in OKC has finally (after over 40 years!) gotten his own sh Posted by: "Glen Linscheid" partsproductionx~xxcenturylink.net Date: Sun Jan 12, 2014 2:39 pm ((PST)) > Yes. Desktop job, needing some TLC, and I guess Bill took pity on me. ;) > So, Glen, wanna tell me how to do a full-up restore on a kit-built > shaper? Bill in OKC Bill, I think the chance of a home built shaper being in need of total restoration is remote. Most home built shapers were never in an environment that dictated 20 hours of work per week year after year, and a large percentage are probably turned on only for demonstrations to friends and family. I was shocked when I got my Havir and South Bend shapers that they were worn as badly as they were, because it's common for shapers to sit literally for years without being used at all. But you'll be able to tell as soon as you look at the ram dovetails. I had a Lewis once, I think I sold it to the same guy I sold the Sheldon 12" to. Mine had a coil spring attached with a screw for the door latch, the last coil of the spring was bent out so it was snapped into and out of the way when the door was closed. I always wondered where that idea came from, it worked good but looked like what I call afterthought engineering. (grin) Did it come with tooling? One of the shaper tool types I have actually used more than any other is the "poke pole", it is just like the lighthouse toolpost holder except threads an a nut hold it in place and the other end, instead of a slot for a tool shank and square headed clamp screw the diameter is reduced (If for smaller holes) and a square hole broached perpendicular at the end with a set screw to hold a short piece of HSS bit for cutting keys in hubs, gears etc. Those work real well, though I always had a setscrew to lock the clapper down. The Ammco I had came with two of those poke poles and I made more, you can have one for each key size and it's pretty quick to swap them out. If the nut that clamps it to the clapper is large enough and thin enough you can slip it over the end past the tool bit, that's if the shank is reduced enough while the thread diameter is still big. Gosh I like shapers! So much fun. I should get my saddle for my Logan this week I hope, then comes big big fun for me! Glen ------- Re: Bill in OKC has finally (after over 40 years!) gotten his own sh Posted by: "GJR" gjrepeshx~xxyahoo.com Date: Sun Jan 12, 2014 3:18 pm ((PST)) Grant, The last time I used this method to remove rust I noticed a marked slow down in the process. Your post on the rusty cathode may have been my problem. I will investigate this. Thanks. "Finally, I have never really liked using steel or iron as the cathode material, because as it rusts it becomes less electrochemically active, i.e. it's resistance goes way up. So in the beginning you might have a satisfactory current flow and come back to find it just a trickle. I'm not aware of any perfect cathodic material." Also, I have an AC/DC stick welder. I used this for my power source on its lowest amperage. It does fast work. My two cents on the process. Gary R. ------- Re: Bill in OKC has finally (after over 40 years!) gotten his own sh Posted by: "oldstudentmsgt" wmrmeyersx~xxsbcglobal.net Date: Sun Jan 12, 2014 3:19 pm ((PST)) It got to sit in some area not exactly water proof for a time, so there is a bunch of surface rust. My WD-40 attack had the ram free enough to move in a few hours, but I need to figure out where all the lube points are, and hit them. I believe I'll flood with detergent motor oil first, then switch to chainsaw bar lube, of which I have a gallon or so, while I find some Vactra or equivalent. Looks like I need to repair & rebuild the DC motor setup. The heatsink for the diode is WAY too small, imho, and it looks like the wire started to burn at some point. Not really a problem while I'm oiling everything to death, I think, since I'll be turning it by hand until I've got the right oil for it. My shaper is also missing the door, but Bill has one like it, planned on making a pattern and casting one and the brackets at another mutual friend's house who does cast iron. I'm getting a bit antsy about Harprit Sandhu's drawings myself, now. ;) Possibly silly question: of the various shapers we have documentation on, which one would be closest to the Lewis? Ammco, South Bend, Atlas, or whatever? I've got a copy of the SB How to Run a Shaper book, David Gingery's The Metal Shaper, and I'm looking at a copy of Ian Bradley's The Shaping Machine on Amazon. Only I think I've done enough damage to the budget for one month. It has a bit in the toolholder that is still sharp to the touch, if a bit rusty, but no other tooling. I got a good enough price on it I've no complaints at all, on that subject. I've got Art Volz's drawings, and some photos from various sites, including our group, and a lathe and brazing/welding equipment. And a shaper! ;) Clapper box is there, swings freely by hand, and I can push the ram back and forth, the bits of the ways on the ram that I can see look pretty good. Don't think I'm going to have to use Moglice on it. Looks like someone used the edge of the ram on the left side as an anvil, though, so may have to tend to that. If it doesn't affect function, I'll not sweat it. I have a dial indicator or two, and a dial test indicator, and several magnetic holders, and I'm going to have to learn how to use them to check things out. I think I may need to drag my Delta table saw out of the shed, as the cast iron table is the closest thing I have to a surface plate if I'm going to need a "flat"surface to check wear and such things. Here in a few, I'm going to start rubbing down what parts I can reach without disassembly with brown fine scotchbrite. This is going to be FUN! Do you have photos of the Poke Pole? I think I've got the idea, but I'm a visual/hands-on person. You could post it to the group, or PM me. wmrmeyers.AT.sbcglobal.DOT.net Bill in OKC ------- Re: Bill in OKC has finally (after over 40 years!) gotten his own sh Posted by: "Glen Linscheid" partsproductionx~xxcenturylink.net Date: Sun Jan 12, 2014 6:10 pm ((PST)) "which one would be closest to the Lewis?" The Rhodes is the only other shaper I can think of that has the elevating screw on the side like that, it's not a pretty solution since it applies unbalanced forces. The problem, if it's real and not only in my mind, is that when you elevate it or lower it the box gets cocked, then when you tighten the locks (Assuming it has locks) the locks naturally try to cock it back square, but can't entirely. Then under a shuddering cut the box straightens itself into the dovetails. It's asking for very slight variations. With the screw under the center of mass there is no cocking other than what uneven drag in the dovetails may cause. As for the poke pole, that's just what an old machinist I knew called it, but I've seen posts about it here, and there may be a photo, I'll look. A better name would be internal shaping tool I guess. Glen ------- Re: Bill in OKC has finally (after over 40 years!) gotten his own sh Posted by: "oldstudentmsgt" wmrmeyersx~xxsbcglobal.net Date: Sun Jan 12, 2014 6:48 pm ((PST)) I'll take a look at the Rhodes shaper then, if I can find info on it. Seems I saw it at one of our links. I've got a spare scissors jack I could use to help it along, I suppose. I would imagine the internal mechanism is much the same in anything but perhaps the hydraulic shapers? I don't see anything I'd take for a locking mechanism for the table, anyway. On the poke pole, that sounds like the internal shaping tool Art Volz drew, then, so I do have a picture. The group doesn't, anymore, so I'll probably post it here if there's any room left, if not I'll put it in the Metal_Shapers_Pix2 group's files. I've been fiddling with the thing since I last posted here, and found that the "hammer marks" I thought I was seeing is the engine-turning that the builder or another previous owner decorated the top of the main casting with. I may have to redo it once everything else is functional. ANOTHER item on the to-do list. ;) Took the tool head off the ram and did a little cleaning, and a bit of a look around. Someone either dropped or mashed the end of the ram, and chipped it a bit. One chip off the front of the boss, one of the side right next to the one of the front. Surface still feels flat and smooth around it so a little wire-brushing is all that part is going to get. The bolt that holds the tool head on the ram has a messed up thread half-way down the threaded section, but that part doesn't protrude into the tool head, so I'll leave it alone until I can lay hands on a chunk of 1" hex bar stock. I'm going to need to degrease the toolhead and put it in the electrolytic rust removal tank with minimal disassembly. The ram moves freely in the front and back thirds of its travel, and requires some force for the middle third. I've got some machine oil dribbled on wherever I think I can get gravity to pull it down to the ways. There are a couple of deep scratches about 2" long near the front of the right side of the ram slide. Once I pull the gib strip out, and see how it looks I'll figure out if I need to do anything about that, too. Other wise, clean & oil the heck out of the interior, and wire-brushing to get the rest of the surface rust and messed up paint off, and deal with the motor situation. The motor is a 50VDC job, and may well be burned up. It does NOT turn smoothly, feels like something is loose inside and keeps catching. It has a 5amp Dayton AC/DC universal & DC motor controller rated for 120v, and a single diode on a too-tiny heatsink. Missing fuse holder, which I can replace maybe from stuff I've got sitting around here. I put the shaper on a pretty sturdy 2-drawer filing cabinet I have, and found that it isn't THAT sturdy, after all. I think a new cabinet is in order. 2-1/2" or 3" angle iron looks like the ticket. I make look at Grizzly to see what they have that could work. When I have much more spare change, anyway. All in all, I think I may be able to have this thing operational in a few weeks of weekends. Thanks for your input, btw. I appreciate it a lot! Bill in OKC ------- Re: Bill in OKC has finally (after over 40 years!) gotten his own sh Posted by: wmrmeyersx~xxsbcglobal.net oldstudentmsgt Date: Sat Feb 22, 2014 7:58 am ((PST)) Got up at 0'dark-thirty, and started re-assembling my Lewis Shaper. So far, I've had no trouble finding the parts, which is a minor miracle in itself. ;) While I'm doing this, I'm measuring the bits and pieces I think of as consumable non-standard hardware, i.e., gibs, and bits and pieces I can't get at Lumber II or a decent hardware store. I think I'm going to need to replace the leadscrews, sooner or later, as they are, I believe the technical term is "buggered up" a bit. The original builder or a later restorer used the manufacturer's specified set-screw collars to hold them in place, and they've obviously slipped and then gouged the heck out of the threads near the handle end of the leadscrew. So part of my project today, while I'm working on the shaper, is to clean up the shop enough to get to my lathe. I can't afford a 5/8"-10 tpi LH square-Thread tap and or die, but I do believe I can make them. With enough practice, anyway. ;) Double that as I think one of the leadscrews is 1/2"-10tpi LH Square-thread. Currently both are soaking in Evaporust so I can't check them right now. I got the power supply for the DC motor, but I would rather use it on my bandsaw, I think. Will have to revisit that when I get to looking a what it takes to modify the drill press motor and pulleys I plan on using for the shaper. Gotta do the math and see what speeds and feed rates I'll get before I can make the decision. I knew that there WOULD be math when I got back into this machining stuff. Time to learn it a bit. Wish me luck, guys, I'm gonna need it! Bill in OKC ------- Re: Bill in OKC has finally (after over 40 years!) gotten his own sh Posted by: dkinzerx~xxgmail.com don_kinzer Date: Sat Feb 22, 2014 10:10 am ((PST)) >I think I'm going to need to replace the leadscrews [...] I had to replace one of the leadscrews on my Brodhead-Garrett. I believe that it was 5/8-10LH also and I bought a length from a supplier like MSC. I do have some left over. If you are interested, I'll confirm the size, pitch and length. Don Kinzer Portland, OR ------- Re: Bill in OKC has finally (after over 40 years!) gotten his own sh Posted by: "Glen Linscheid" partsproductionx~xxcenturylink.net Date: Sat Feb 22, 2014 10:11 am ((PST)) Bill, Square threads? Are you positive? In England they use to use square threads but they are difficult to make especially for a long screw. Much more common would be Acme, which is 29 degree included sides. Even Acme threads are not for the rusty or "all thumbs" machinist. The only square threads I've seen or heard of in the U.S. is rifle breeches, and I think those are Mausers I've read that of. Well, any gunsmith can do that, it's only an inch or so and fine threads. I once owned a Lewis long ago, and would have noticed, but the builders are the ones who decide how they are going to make them so every one is different. If you do make a new feed screw you would do well to add a key everywhere the original had a setscrew for torque resistance, like a handle or gear terminus. I can't say for sure because I can't see it but if you follow common engineering practices you will be way ahead. When you do have to have a setscrew lock down on a screw (Never on an Acme or square in my experience, only on 10 TPI or finer 60 degree threads) a small piece of brass or copper at the bottom of the setscrew hole, preferably running the tap through to cut threads in the brass or copper face so they won't damage the threads, is the way to do it. But I assume you are talking about an area that is turned down? If an area of a thread is turned down at the end and a collar or handle or gear is placed there (Still really bad engineering) you may want to dimple the turned area to receive the setscrew point. I wish I could see this shaper, but I remember I was not impressed with the Lewis I had so I gave it to a friend. I assumed the poor engineering I saw was individual high school shop shortcuts I was seeing. No reason to not redo it right if you have to do it over anyway. (Smile) Glen ------- Re: Bill in OKC has finally (after over 40 years!) gotten his own sh Posted by: "JRWilliams" jrwillmsx~xxhal-pc.org Date: Sat Feb 22, 2014 11:17 am ((PST)) Square threads -- check the US Springfield and M1 Garand rifle barrels. ------- Re: Bill in OKC has finally (after over 40 years!) gotten his own sh Posted by: "William R Meyers" wmrmeyersx~xxsbcglobal.net Date: Sat Feb 22, 2014 11:20 am ((PST)) Don & Glen, Well, they're both definitely 5/8"-10tpi, but I am not certain about the square thread. I looked closely at them, and they do appear to slope a bit at the sides, but I'm not sure if it's wear or what. They're deeper than the 10tpi notch on my Starrett ACME thread guage, but it's for checking cutting tools, not threads. I have the gauge because I've been planning on doing ACME threads for a very long time. This is the first time I've used it in the 3 or 4 years I've owned it. Went looking for a cheaper US or import gauge at my local supply place, and they'd had someone special order it, and then not pick it up. After nearly a year, they wanted it gone, and gave it to me for what the import would have cost. It is the only GOOD machinists tool I own, so far. Well, not counting some damaged & salvaged Starrett rules. The threads do look more like the square thread on my broken vise, and on a couple of chinese drill vises I have, one of which came with the shaper. Not exactly square, either, but maybe not as slope-sided as the ... Just realized I DO have an object with an ACME thread to look at. The Atlas MF mill uses ACME leadscrews on its table. Yes, I'm afraid they're ACME screws. Guess I have to learn soon. I can use them as-is, there are just areas of the screws I'll have to avoid until I can get new leadscrews made so this isn't a show-stopper. Hmmm. Now I have to learn to thread, and on a challenging thread form. ;) Don, how much of that screw-stock do you have left, and how much would you want for it. I'm in 73115 zipcode, if that helps for figuring shipping. Oh, and is it left or right-hand thread? Bill in OKC ------- Re: Bill in OKC has finally (after over 40 years!) gotten his own sh Posted by: wmrmeyersx~xxsbcglobal.net oldstudentmsgt Date: Sat Feb 22, 2014 11:24 am ((PST)) > Square threads-?? check the US Springfield and M1 Garand rifle barrels. Wish I had one to check. My Springfield '03-A3 was stolen over 22 years ago, and I was unable to replace it, and I've never owned a Garand, although I'd sure like one. ;) One of my interests in metalworking is using it for gunsmithing. Got a long ways to go, and a lot to learn. Bill in OKC ------- Re: Bill in OKC has finally (after over 40 years!) gotten his own sh Posted by: "Glen Linscheid" partsproductionx~xxcenturylink.net Date: Sat Feb 22, 2014 2:25 pm ((PST)) I do think I mentioned rifle barrels. ------- Re: Bill in OKC has finally (after over 40 years!) gotten his own sh Posted by: "Glen Linscheid" partsproductionx~xxcenturylink.net Date: Sat Feb 22, 2014 2:25 pm ((PST)) Bill. Any thread pitch gage will work with acme threads for pitch. Glen ------- Re: Bill in OKC has finally (after over 40 years!) gotten his own sh Posted by: "Glen Linscheid" partsproductionx~xxcenturylink.net Date: Sat Feb 22, 2014 2:37 pm ((PST)) I was very surprised to find a square threaded lead screw on my English lathes recently after buying them (I need to look and see if the feed screw is square too). The reasons for motion transmitting screws to be acme instead are many and important. I really see no need for square threads on anything but I could be convinced otherwise if proven wrong. An acme screw is every bit as strong as a square thread, much much easier to cut accurately for either a leadscrew, for a lathe, or a feed screw on a mill or shaper or lathe cross slide, in addition an acme screw is self centering. There are threads that are stronger than either type, a buttress thread comes to mind, and big guns use those. I've always wondered why Mauser used square threads, and, of course the Springfield was a Mauser design, stolen I think I read, or did they ever pay royalties? ------- Re: Bill in OKC has finally (after over 40 years!) gotten his own sh Posted by: "William R Meyers" wmrmeyersx~xxsbcglobal.net oldstudentmsgt Date: Sat Feb 22, 2014 2:42 pm ((PST)) So will a ruler, Glen. Just count the number of bumps in an inch, or a centimeter. I did get & retain that much from machine shop and mechanical drawing, even though I flunked the latter, due to teenage attitudinal problems and no corrective factors. Would have taken at least a 2x4, and may have broken it... ;) Bill in OKC William R. Meyers, MSgt, USAF(Ret.) ------- Re: Bill in OKC has finally (after over 40 years!) gotten his own sh Posted by: "Dennis Turk" dennis.turk2x~xxfrontier.com Date: Sat Feb 22, 2014 2:44 pm ((PST)) I have a 5/8 10 tpi Acme left hand tap. Acme thread stock is hard to find in a 5/8 -10. Most outlets like McMaster Carr and others keep standard acme thread stock on hand in right and left hand. Problem is standard acme threaded stock comes 3/8- 12 7/16 -10 1/2 -10 but 5/8 seems to be always 8 pitch. The 5/8 10 lead screws I have had to make my own. Have done several for Standard Modern lathes. Also for a French Lip 4 inch surface grinder I have. Turk ------- Re: Bill in OKC has finally (after over 40 years!) gotten his own sh Posted by: "Dennis Turk" dennis.turk2x~xxfrontier.com dturkcars Date: Sat Feb 22, 2014 2:46 pm ((PST)) Interesting in that the large ring as well as the small ring (Swedish) are not metric threads rather they are inch or imperial threads Glen. I am not sure what the thread profile is though. ------- Re: Bill in OKC has finally (after over 40 years!) gotten his own sh Posted by: "William R Meyers" wmrmeyersx~xxsbcglobal.net oldstudentmsgt Date: Sat Feb 22, 2014 3:15 pm ((PST)) I'm considering chopping off a chunk of the better of the two I have. I'd lose about a third of the current travel doing it that way. The worst damage on it is right in the middle of the screw, and more closest to where the collar was supposed to keep the thing from moving back and forth, as it so obviously did. I could flute it on the shaper, and harden it, even if I have to case-harden it. Then make a die, and use that to make a tap, or learn to turn an ACME thread on my lathe. Need to do it anyway, may as well do more than one of them. I've looked for a tap, not had any luck finding one yet. Will probably keep looking in case the money fairy visits again. ;) As you've done this, does it make better sense to use easy-machining stock, or tool stock, for the leadscrews? I'd have to buy 5/8 or a bit larger stock and turn it down anyway, as I don't have anything but Lowes Mystery Metal in that size right now, but have several options for buying a better grade of stock nearby. I do have 24" of 1" 12L14, which would let me reproduce the collar on the current cross-rail leadscrew. Easy machinging sounds like "easy to damage" to me, though. Bill in OKC William R. Meyers, MSgt, USAF(Ret.) ------- Re: Bill in OKC has finally (after over 40 years!) gotten his own sh Posted by: "Charles" xlch58x~xxswbell.net Date: Sat Feb 22, 2014 4:32 pm ((PST)) A lot of old machinery uses a square thread form, since Acme didn't appear til the end of the 19th century (I have several 19th century machines with square threads). You will also see it used on screw jacks well into the twentieth century as it is lower friction. Charles ------- Re: Bill in OKC has finally (after over 40 years!) gotten his own sh Posted by: "Glen Linscheid" partsproductionx~xxcenturylink.net Date: Sat Feb 22, 2014 7:06 pm ((PST)) "A lot of old machinery uses a square thread form" Yes, but the Lewis shaper came out in the 50's. The acme thread was so obviously superior in almost every way that the square thread was an archaic form in a very short time. The Acme thread was first mentioned in 1895. But it is so obvious to any machinist with any understanding of what he is doing in the tool/metal interface that the slightest taper to the sides makes threading easier that I'm sure it was used long before that. You should feel how square threads and half nuts engage! I'm sure even there that they put a taper at the tops of the minor diameter threads so they can engage a bit easier. Otherwise they have to have a lot of play between the sides of the thread forms, ID to OD, to ease engagement of the halfnuts. Looking back at this conversation I've enjoyed it, but later it occurred to me that the term acme was harder to remember than square, as opposed to V threads. They do look a little squarish. I didn't mean to make a big deal of it. Bill, making a tap out of the same screw can be done, but there are much better ways. Any material with medium carbon can be made into a fine tap for limited use, much better than case hardening IMO. The reason using the same screw is problematic is that you end up either having to make your new screw smaller or wobble the tap around in the hole like a tribesman on a red dirt floor in the third world to get it to make a hole large enough to pass the same sized thread. Also, a hand ground 29 degree boring bar will thread an acme nut, it's much more difficult than a V thread because the shank has to be so small for clearance. You can also buy a nut made of bronze with a LH acme hole reasonably cheaply. http://www.roton.com/mating_components.aspx?family=7160450 Glen ------- Re: Bill in OKC has finally (after over 40 years!) gotten his own sh Posted by: "Glen Linscheid" partsproductionx~xxcenturylink.net Date: Sat Feb 22, 2014 7:07 pm ((PST)) > So will a ruler, Glen. Just count the number of bumps in an inch, > or a centimeter. Really? Do you think that being a commercial machinist for almost thirty years I may have thought of that? Glen ------- Re: Bill in OKC has finally (after over 40 years!) gotten his own sh Posted by: wmrmeyersx~xxsbcglobal.net oldstudentmsgt Date: Sat Feb 22, 2014 7:50 pm ((PST)) I figured that you'd thought of it, but didn't know that I would or even could. After all, I'm not a machinist. Just a wannabe. ;) And I do have some serious holes in my knowledge of machining. I've been reading about it for about 40 years, but not gotten much practice. That makes it harder to put things together, and make sense of some of what I "know." Lots of book knowledge, not much sense, so to speak. I'm fairly expert in enough other fields to know that I'm very much not in this one. ;) Bill in OKC ------- Re: Bill in OKC has finally (after over 40 years!) gotten his own sh Posted by: dkinzerx~xxgmail.com don_kinzer Date: Sat Feb 22, 2014 7:11 pm ((PST)) > Don, how much of that screw-stock do you have left I believe that what I have is the same as the MSC p/n 01206176. It's 5/8-10LH Acme. Their price is $170 for a 6 ft. piece. I have 55 inches left and I'd be willing to sell part of it. How much do you need? Don Kinzer Portland, OR ------- Re: Bill in OKC has finally (after over 40 years!) gotten his own sh Posted by: wmrmeyersx~xxsbcglobal.net oldstudentmsgt Date: Sat Feb 22, 2014 7:51 pm ((PST)) It looks like somewhere between 25 & 30 inches. I'm not at all sure I can afford to buy it. What would you want for about 4-6" of the stuff? I could use that to make a tap, at least, and bootstrap myself up. For me this a hobby, and I'm on a very limited budget at least until (and unless) I could start making some money at it. Seeing how long it's taken to get this far, I'm not holding my breath waiting for it to get profitable for me. ;) Bill in OKC ------- Re: Bill in OKC has finally (after over 40 years!) gotten his own sh Posted by: wmrmeyersx~xxsbcglobal.net oldstudentmsgt Date: Sat Feb 22, 2014 7:59 pm ((PST)) Glen, from what I understand, the Lewis shaper came out in the 20's or 30's, and stopped being produced in the 50's. I know I have pdf's of a 1937 catalog, and one undated as far as I can see, but during or maybe a bit post-WWII. Nothing after that, that I can find, anyway. I also know I'm missing a drawing or two, as they are numbered and lettered, 106 is the shaper overview, showing the main castings, and 106-?, I have 106, 106-B, C, D, E, F, & G, and I expect there should be a 106-A that I don't have, and possibly others. Parts lists, directions, etc. On using a chunk of one of the lead screws, I was thinking that it would at least be close to the size of the tapped holes in the main and cross-rail castings. I've already put a 1/2"id/5/8"od bronze bushing in the left side of the cross-rail to center that leadscrew. I think it being free to flop around had something to do with the leadscrew being buggered up. ;) It also marked the back of the cross-rail slide from flopping about. I think I need to get a dog-point set screw for the collar until I can come up with a better way to do the job. A guy named Ron Shimon refurbed one he got partially completed, and it looks like he put something like my Atlas MF mill has on the table screws at each nd of his cross-rail screw. I will probably try that. After I get the mill going, and learn how they did it. ;) In the mill's IPB they're just called "plates" and they hold the screw in tension from both ends. I think my Lewis needs that, too. Will need longer screws to make that work, too. ------- Re: Bill in OKC has finally (after over 40 years!) gotten his own sh Posted by: dkinzerx~xxgmail.com don_kinzer Date: Sun Feb 23, 2014 2:16 am ((PST)) > What would you want for about 4-6" of the stuff? I'd be happy to send you a piece that size. Send me your address. (don at kinzers dot com) Don Kinzer ------- Re: Bill in OKC has finally (after over 40 years!) gotten his own sh Posted by: "Jim S" mrjschmidtx~xxhotmail.com toolingjim Date: Sun Feb 23, 2014 2:17 am ((PST)) > Interesting in that the large ring as well as the small ring (Swedish) > are not metric threads rather they are inch or imperial threads Glen. > I am not sure what the thread profile is though. Just for the record, the Mauser was a metric diameter 55 degree Whitworth thread with 12 thread per inch English pitch. The best guess I have read as to why this is so suggested, that unlike later on, mid/late nineteenth century Germany was not yet an industrial powerhouse. Like all developing countries they purchased their first technology from other countries. The surmise was that they bought their threading machinery from England and used the tooling and pitches the machine was designed for, hence the odd metric/English mix. Oh, and for the fellow on this thread who mentioned that he didn’t have much in the way of good shop gear, I would suggest he check out his local ‘antique mall’. These places sell all sorts of oldish stuff, including tools. Woodworking tools get premium prices, even for junk, but metalworking items are often very inexpensive. I think that is because most sellers and buyers have no idea what they are, so demand is low. This is especially so for measuring tools like vernier calipers, mikes, machinists scales, etc. I purchased a large micrometer in its old wooden box for less than the cost of an empty wooden box for wood chisels sitting on the same shelf. If you find something, ask if it is their best price. Some places give a discount of 10% just for the asking. Jim (Just a guy who likes to build stuff) ------- Re: Bill in OKC has finally (after over 40 years!) gotten his own sh Posted by: "Glen Linscheid" partsproductionx~xxcenturylink.net Date: Sun Feb 23, 2014 9:03 am ((PST)) Thanks Jim, I knew it was some Mauser design, am I right that the Springfield 03 had square threads? ------- Re: Bill in OKC has finally (after over 40 years!) gotten his own sh Posted by: "Charles" xlch58x~xxswbell.net Date: Sun Feb 23, 2014 10:00 am ((PST)) The Springfield had square threads, but it didn't get them from Mauser, more likely from the Krag, which also used square threads. The 1903 was a considerable departure from the Mauser and many consider it inferior. The early ones certainly were due to faulty heat treating. The Mauser was a metric V thread. Interestingly a lot of them were mated to new barrels in the US using 12 threads per inch V thread on the barrel. It was close enough and metric lathes were not common. There are plenty of other guns out there with square threads like the old Savages. A square thread does not impart the radial stresses in the receiver ring. This is another factor that makes it popular for cast iron screw jacks, and why you might find it used on table elevation screws on shapers even if the cross feed is a trapezoidal form (not every one is an Acme thread, there are a couple of other standards and some wildcats out there). I am pretty sure the Z on my 1892 Milling machine is a plain square thread. Charles ------- Re: Bill in OKC has finally (after over 40 years!) gotten his own sh Posted by: "Charles" xlch58x~xxswbell.net Date: Sun Feb 23, 2014 10:01 am ((PST)) Just read this completely. Interesting Jim. Explains a lot. My info came from Dunlap, who I have found a reliable source, but he may have been thrown off by the angle. I believe there are plenty of Mausers out there with a 60 degree 12TPI barrel. Charles ------- Re: Bill in OKC has finally (after over 40 years!) gotten his own sh Posted by: "Glen Linscheid" partsproductionx~xxcenturylink.net Date: Sun Feb 23, 2014 4:47 pm ((PST)) Charles, You are right, there is little "expansion" going on in the nut with a square thread. I had never considered that. You can get away with a lot of thread imprecision when the threads are short, though I think on any high powered rifle I would shoot I'd want precision threads. The US armory was in litigation before and maybe during and after the first world war over the Mauser design, clearly they are a lot more alike than different to most observers. Even if there are differences they would look suspiciously like legal dodges rather than improvements. It seems like such dishonest practices couldn't get past the courts even in an anti Germanic climate. "The War Department had exhaustively studied and dissected several examples of the Spanish Mauser Model 93 rifle captured during the Spanish- American War, and applied some features of the U.S. Krag rifle to a bolt and magazine system derived from the Mauser Model 93, to produce the new U.S. Springfield Rifle, the Model 1903. Despite Springfield Armory's use of a two-piece firing pin and other slight design alterations, the 1903 was in fact a Mauser design, and after that company brought suit, the U.S. government was forced to pay $3,000,000 in royalties to Mauser Werke" (Wikipedia) ------- Was: Re: Bill in OKC has finally (after over 40 years!) gotten his own sh Re: square thrds [Metal_Shapers] Posted by: "Doc" n8as1x~xxaol.com docn8as Date: Mon Feb 24, 2014 6:36 pm ((PST)) FWIW ........when doug king visited me a dozen hrs ago, he brought w/ him from Canada the Brit method of cutting square thrds ......& it worked out WELL when i single pointed a 7/16 X10 square nut for a 1890 prentice bros 15 inch compound . set the compound in line w/ the lathe centerline .... grind the tool bit to a slightly under size bit thread STRAIGHT in till you get full depth take slicing cuts on each side, by advancing the compound & cutting in full depth w/ the xslide ..till then you have a fit ... usually more clearance is necesary than "by the book"....AND by grinding slightly under, a precision size grind is not necessary best wishes doc ------- Was: Re: Bill in OKC has finally (after over 40 years!) gotten his own sh Re: springfield vs mauser actions [Metal_Shapers] Posted by: "Doc" n8as1x~xxaol.com docn8as Date: Mon Feb 24, 2014 6:36 pm ((PST)) FWIW ben near 50 yrs now since i put a 22-250 on a springfield action, but IIRC, the barrel had to be beveled at the rear to provide room for the extractor .. so the rear of the case was not supported as well as in the mauser ...i think the designer was trying to avoid patent infringement. & yes i fitted / chambered more than a few mausers at 12 tpi ....we were aware of the metric thrds, but as you say, most lathes cud not handle metric & there did not seem to be any problem w/ 12TPI. later improvements were a recess in the bolt head fully enclosing the case head. incidentally, in blowup tests that PO Ackly conducted, the Arisaka came out the strongest. when the surplus 98 mausers came into the US so cheaply ($10) after WW2, it was like manna from heaven ....no more wrecking beautiful hi walls & engraved Stevens for an action for a varminter. ------- Re: springfield vs mauser actions Posted by: "Charles" xlch58x~xxswbell.net Date: Mon Feb 24, 2014 7:16 pm ((PST)) The cone or bevel on a Springfield receiver was to facilitate loading individual cartridges directly in the breach. There was a magazine feed stop as well, the theory being that you only used the magazine when in a hurry. The Mauser was designed to be only magazine fed. Probably time to return to Shaper talk. Charles ------- Re: springfield vs mauser actions Posted by: "Glen Linscheid" partsproductionx~xxcenturylink.net Date: Tue Feb 25, 2014 1:11 am ((PST)) Doc, Were Arisaka's made in Japan? I'm sure they were later but originally did Japan buy them from Mauser? I owned a late production type 94 Nambu, crudest pistol I've ever seen, but it worked! I was once wanting a Siamese Mauser to have rechambered for 45-70, they were able to take the specific size of either the .45 bored barrels or the size of the cartridges. In the end I could never stand up to the cost though. Glen ------- Re: springfield vs mauser actions Posted by: "Doc" n8as1x~xxaol.com docn8as Date: Tue Feb 25, 2014 10:59 pm ((PST)) Glen. yes, the Arisaka was japanese manufactured ...in 6.5 MM & a reasonably accurate military rifle .....rough looking but stout ...i originally wrote Jap & then thot that term was no longer politically correct but when i went to add on, i had hit a key somewhere & it was erasing stuff so i just deleted Jap (which was the common term during WW2 & after. i remember well the model 94 Nambu.....it functioned adequately BUT there was a REAL problem ...the gun cud be fired by pressing in on an exposed part on the left side of the action ...i dont know if anyone met his demise from that but i did hear that several were near scared to death. i have not had a siamese mauser to examine, but lack of funds is what started my gunsmithing activities...& led me thru the rear door into machining. i bought my first rifle at age 10 for $1,25,,, a stevens crack shot, missing a firing pin ...i filed one from a nail, not knowing any better nor having any other material ...later made a stock from a blank, checkered & carved it after buying a 20 ga lefever that needed a butt stock ....i made more than a few parts for "liberated " guns frorm WW2 w/ only hacksaw, chisel, & files ...finally got a cheap walker turner drill press w/ a key less chuck, (yeah the type used on the eggbeater hand drill)...using it like a lathe made firing pin work a lot easier, and BETTER...& later spent the $100 rent money for a 6x18 crftsmn..... little by little .....enuf,...sorry, got carried away. best wishes doc ------- Re: Bill in OKC has finally (after over 40 years!) gotten his own sh Posted by: "Jim S" mrjschmidtx~xxhotmail.com toolingjim Date: Tue Feb 25, 2014 11:01 pm ((PST)) > I believe there are plenty of Mausers out there with a 60 degree > 12TPI barrel. There was a lot of confusion about Mauser barrel threads over the years. America was for many years relatively clueless about the thread systems used outside the US. I once saw an old Machinery’s Handbook from between the wars that had exactly two pages on the metric system, and nothing on metric threads or any other metric standards (tooling, gears, etc.). There are copies of the Mauser factory prints for the barrel thread in two books out there, and they show 12 threads (zwelf gewinde in german) with a 55 degree thread angle. I have them both. That said, many, many barrels have been threaded 12 pitch 60 degree and screwed into Mauser actions to make an accurate shooting rifle. The action cleanup taps sold to the trade are 12 pitch 60 degree taps, as are all the prethreaded barrels I have seen. Confusing, isn’t it? Jim (Just a guy who likes to build stuff) PS I think that we better get back to shapers before the moderator notices us gun nuts (grin). js ------- Re: Bill in OKC has finally (after over 40 years!) gotten his own sh Posted by: "William R Meyers" wmrmeyersx~xxsbcglobal.net oldstudentmsgt Date: Wed Feb 26, 2014 2:32 am ((PST)) Jim, at least one of the moderators IS a gun nut. The reason I've wanted, and finally gotten, and am now refurbing my Lewis is among other things to make gun parts on it. Though I doubt I'll be cutting any 12 pitch threads on it. ;) Bill in OKC ------- NOTE TO FILE: Perhaps by now you are wondering why this conversation about restoring Bill's metal shaper has wandered so far off course that we are now seeing discussion of the threads on rifle barrels. Dunno, such things happen all the time. I figured anyone who likes shapers will likely also enjoy this oddball diversion about barrel threads and maybe learn a bit of firearms history. I did copy all the stuff about square/acme threads and barrel threads to the text file here called "Threading (Lathe and Otherwise)" for those folks to find. The firearms part went on for several more days and you can read those later messages in the Metal_Shapers Yahoo archives. ------- Accuracy of Metal Shaper [Metal_Shapers] Posted by: papagrumpy59x~xxyahoo.com Date: Sun Jul 20, 2014 3:33 pm ((PDT)) I have a 16" Steptoe shaper that I am having trouble getting to cut accurately. I just worked on a 3" diameter piece of steel and was continually cutting thicker on one end than the other. I was trying to flatten an area on both sides of the piece. I finally put .0700 shim under one end to get it to cut parallel to the base. I checked the table and vice and it is within .001 on the cross travel and .001 on the stroke for the full 16 inches. I have checked for play in the ram and the down feed and everything is tight. Can setting the clapper box at an angle cause it to cut a taper? Thanks Larry ------- Re: Accuracy of Metal Shaper Posted by: "Glen Linscheid" partsproductionx~xxcenturylink.net Date: Sun Jul 20, 2014 3:54 pm ((PDT)) Papa, Not a shaper expert, but it doesn't sound like the ram is running parallel with the box, is that what you think is going on? I'm rebuilding an old shaper that I think had been scraped hurriedly for rigidity often, meaning they assumed alignment but never checked it. It was difficult for me to get my mind around the concept, that anyone would do that, but it is the only way I can explain the front end of the ram's way at top of the main body casting being .012" down from the back. Could it be something like that? The clapper should only change whether or not the cut is vertical, not make it thicker top to bottom on one end, unless I didn't understand what you are saying. Glen ------- Re: Accuracy of Metal Shaper Posted by: "alan lapp" alanbataarx~xxyahoo.com Date: Mon Jul 21, 2014 2:12 am ((PDT)) On my Rhodes, I have discovered that the vertical slide will actually feed itself into the work. If the gibs are tight enough to prevent the slide from drifting down during a cut, you can't advance the tool. The solution was to make a pair of thumb screws for the gib so I can tighten it for each cut, and loosen it for each downfeed. PITA, but it works. If I were sufficiently motivated, I'd figure out a place to put a rubber o-ring in the downfeed threads. IMHO, the vertical slide ways are undersized, and contribute to this problem. No easy solution for that, unfortunately. ------- Re: Accuracy of Metal Shaper Posted by: papagrumpy59x~xxyahoo.com Date: Mon Jul 21, 2014 2:12 am ((PDT)) It is cutting low on the left side facing the shaper. The cut was about 12 inches long tangent to the ram. I checked it with a dial indicator and it appears to be square X and Y directions. I doubt one way is higher or lower than the other which might cause the problem. I don't have a lot of experience with a shaper and have tried to cut a square block and end up with a parallelogram. I am going to try and cut another piece to see if I did something wrong. Thanks Larry ------- Re: Accuracy of Metal Shaper Posted by: "Tucker Tomlinson" tuckertomlinsonx~xxgmail.com Date: Mon Jul 21, 2014 6:45 pm ((PDT)) I also had a problem with the vertical feed advancing during a cut with a south bend 7. In my case this was a combination of factors: poor gib locking, chatter, table gibs in need of tightening. I also hadn't been overshooting the feed and dialing back to take up backlash. Addressing each of those issues fixed part of the issue. An easy way to check for this is to reset the table and cut again (spring pass). If the vertical feed has been sucking in, your next pass should start making a real cut rather than a spring pass. (If it's bad enough you can see the feed dial change from beginning to end of pass.) Cheers ------- Re: Accuracy of Metal Shaper Posted by: "Doc" n8as1x~xxaol.com docn8as Date: Mon Jul 21, 2014 6:47 pm ((PDT)) FWIW .....one solution is to advance the slide beyond the cut wanted & then back it up to the desired cut ..THEN lock the slide ...this takes out the b/lash on the screw so there is additional help for the slide lock ...this has become mandatory for me to cut to a thou. best wishes doc ------- Re: Accuracy of Metal Shaper Posted by: bbaedke2x~xxyahoo.com bbaedke2 Date: Mon Jul 21, 2014 6:49 pm ((PDT)) How much material are you taking off? It is typical for rough cuts to not be perfect. I usually try to take a few finish cuts of .010" each to see how it is coming out. Especially on a new (but probably worn out old machine). For instance, on my old Le Blond lathe (early 40's) I might take rough cuts of 1/8 inch deep but leave enough stock to sneak up on the finish size to take a few cuts of .010 or .005 to see how it is going. You may have to shim your vise to avoid shimming each piece. ------- Re: Accuracy of Metal Shaper Posted by: jmartin957x~xxaol.com jmartin957 Date: Tue Jul 22, 2014 2:59 pm ((PDT)) I keep the slide gib screws pretty tight and have never noticed a problem with self-feeding on light cuts. When you think about it, the only difference between a shaper and a lathe in respect to self-feeding is that with the lathe gravity does not encourage the cross slide or compound to self-feed. With heavy cuts, the geometry of the cutter also comes into play. If the cutter is ground with a lot of back rake, it will encourage self-feeding. Same as when you're cutting brass on the lathe, or drilling it with a normally sharpened drill. John ------- Re: Accuracy of Metal Shaper Posted by: "Glen Linscheid" partsproductionx~xxcenturylink.net Date: Wed Jul 23, 2014 9:06 am ((PDT)) Most I've seen have a clamp screw on that slide. Most have a screw that bears against the gib, but the Logan has a boss sticking out on the opposite side with a dog point set screw in it that bears against the side of the slide, I wonder why their engineers didn't do it the way everyone else does. My Logan shaper has a clamp screw bearing against the gib on the vertical slide that the cross rail slides up and down on. It also has a clamp screw bearing against the gib on the vertical slide that the cross rail slides up and down on. I would be cautious applying much pressure to it though as the casting is very thin at the inside point of the dovetail, that is where mine broke when the gorilla truck driver rolled it over. Clamp screws seem to be optional equipment to some designers. Two lathes I have had a clamp screw on the compound slide but none on the cross slide. Every lathe I've ever seen have a clamp on the carriage. Every mill I've ever seen had a clamp or clamps for the knee. Why both Nardini and Sculfort saw no need for a cross slide locking screw is a mystery, of course they have them now. (grin) The vertical way for the cross rail saddle wouldn't seem to need one, what with the front support, but when trying for close tolerances I like everything clamped. But if there isn't any vibration things don't tend to move, so chatter is very unwelcome. ------- Re: Accuracy of Metal Shaper Posted by: "Rocky" rocky_beechx~xxyahoo.com Rocky_Beech Date: Tue Jul 22, 2014 2:59 pm ((PDT)) Alan, On your Rhodes, are you talking about the vertical slide that the table rides on? I have a Rhodes and I have not noticed this effect. I can't imagine that the force of the cutter lifting that mass. Russell ------- Re: Accuracy of Metal Shaper Posted by: "Alan Lapp" alanbataarx~xxyahoo.com Date: Tue Jul 22, 2014 4:00 pm ((PDT)) No, the vertical slide which carries the clapper & the tool holder. a ------- Re: Accuracy of Metal Shaper Posted by: "Doc" n8as1x~xxaol.com docn8as Date: Tue Jul 22, 2014 4:01 pm ((PDT)) FWIW i rarely machine anything other than mild steel .....i use side rake exclusively except on dutch (flat) nosed tool which only has lite back rake ....i wud think that a combination of how tight the gibs are, & how tite they are locked, slide wear, how much b/lash is in the slide affect self feeding .....i lock up tight & back up the screw on all cuts from .100 at .10 feed to finish cuts .....perhaps not always necessary, but gives me peace of mind ......also, cutting internal keyways UP (& locking the clapper) takes out the lash & makes locking the slide unnecessary. best wishes doc ------- Re: Accuracy of Metal Shaper Posted by: "Tucker Tomlinson" tuckertomlinsonx~xxgmail.com Date: Tue Jul 22, 2014 4:01 pm ((PDT)) One difference between a lathe and a shaper is that the shaper is always taking an interrupted cut. The impact could certainly jar things loose for cuts that might be just fine on the lathe. I've not done enough interrupted cutting on lathes with similar construction to the SB7 to say how they perform. I can't speak for the Rhodes, but on my SB7 the offending part is the variable angle compound axis that holds the clapper, which feeds itself with gravity rather than against. I was using a cutter with a shallow angle, not likely to pull the cutter down much. Cheers ------- Re: Accuracy of Metal Shaper Posted by: "George Lough" gloughx~xxmac.com us51478467 Date: Sat Jul 26, 2014 8:21 am ((PDT)) > On your Rhodes, are you talking about the vertical slide that the > table rides on? I have a Rhodes and I have not noticed this effect. > I can't imagine that the force of the cutter lifting that mass. I assume that you are referring to the slide that holds the cutter. I have a South Bend shaper with no lock on the slide, just a knob to tighten one of the gib screws. I am new to all of this so please excuse my ignorance. I have never seen a slide lock. Can you give me a description or better yet a picture or drawing? I would like to add something of this nature as I am experiencing the same problem much to my frustration. ------- Vert. Slide Clamp Screw [was Re: Accuracy of Metal Shaper] Posted by: "bill baedke" bbaedke2x~xxyahoo.com bbaedke2 Date: Sat Jul 26, 2014 8:21 am ((PDT)) If there is not a way to clamp the slide, there should be. I have added clamp screws to various slides over the years. One way is to drill and tap a hole about midway on the side that has the gib. Then, you can add a setscrew that bears against the gib to increase friction or lock the slide tight. Of course, you have to take the slide off to do this, but.... Usually, on older machines the gib needs to be loose when the slide is in the most used place because it gets tight at the least used end positions due to wear. Having a quick way to vary the friction for different positions helps. My Cincinnati 20 inch that I got a few months ago came with a bolt with a tee handle welded to it to tighten the gib. It seems to work nicely and I don't have to use a wrench. I can snug it up some for finish cuts (light cuts) and clamp it tight for rough cuts. Bill B, Romeo, MI ------- Re: Accuracy of Metal Shaper Posted by: "Doc" n8as1x~xxaol.com docn8as Date: Sun Jul 27, 2014 6:15 am ((PDT)) FWIW you lock the slide with that knob pressing on the gib ...you shud also back up the feed screw b/lash so that the slide CANNOT move downward w/ heavy cuts that may overide the locked slide ....particularly w/ worn slides that the gib may not hold as securely as needed. best wishes doc ------- Invicta 2M Scoring on Ram slide ways [Metal_Shapers] Posted by: locost_neox~xxyahoo.com Date: Sat Jul 26, 2014 8:20 am ((PDT)) I've got an Invicta 2M (Same as the Elliott 14M) that I paid $400 for. When I took the ram off I discovered there is scoring on the left slideway and the bottom of the ram. I think the scoring is not much more than .005", but that is just a guess. I'm pretty sure putting it back together as is would be a bad idea. Any comments or suggestions would be appreciated. Thanks. PS: I tried to put up a photo album of the problem areas, but the pictures wouldn't post. ------- Re: Invicta 2M Scoring on Ram slide ways Posted by: "Tucker Tomlinson" tuckertomlinsonx~xxgmail.com Date: Sun Jul 27, 2014 6:12 am ((PDT)) Sounds like a chip may have gotten in there at some point. It's hard to say without seeing the damage, but minor scoring probably won't hurt the machine too much so long as the chip is now gone and everything stays well oiled. If you lost too much bearing surface to the scoring you may need to re-scrape the ram to prevent further erosion. If you do that you will need to scrape both sides of the ram to make sure the ways stay in the same plane. ------- Re: Invicta 2M Scoring on Ram slide ways Posted by: "Glen Linscheid" partsproductionx~xxcenturylink.net Date: Sun Jul 27, 2014 6:12 am ((PDT)) Locost, My South Bend had similar scoring, almost all on one of the two ram way dovetails. About a day scraping brought it back to true again. I used a Biax exclusively. Glen ------- Re: Invicta 2M Scoring on Ram slide ways Posted by: "alan lapp" alanbataarx~xxyahoo.com Date: Sun Jul 27, 2014 6:15 am ((PDT)) In this case, there is probably only one "perfectly right" way to do it -- mill the surfaces below the scoring, then scrape the ways flat & parallel & perpendicular to the table ways If you don't own it already, the Connolly book "Machine Tool Reconditioning" is considered "the" resource for scraping, and will teach the proper method for scraping. However, there are lots of ways to do it "good enough"! My friend Michael, from whom I purchased my Rhodes, has a saying: "Perfect is the enemy of good enough." The first thing to understand is that whenever there is FOD (foreign object damage) on a precision surface, the surface is not normally *eroded*, it is *displaced*. The difference being that an eroded surface (like damage due to rust) is all material subtracted from the original surface, whereas displacement is like the peaks of a wave from throwing a rock into a pool of water - for every low spot, there is a surrounding high spot - there is little or no subtraction of material. You can verify this with a piece of aluminum and a ball peen hammer. So, the first step is to use a fine, large flat file and remove the high spots from the precision surfaces. Stop when there is a broad ring of shiny metal around the scoring. When you get rid of the high spots, the file won't cut as easily, so that's a good way to know that you're done. You generally can't overdo this without a lot of work. In many cases, this is enough to return the tool to service. In fact, it's the first thing I do to a table when I buy a mill. Some machines have pressurized lubrication systems and scoring like this would lead to loss of oil pressure. It's possible to clean the gouges with solvent, and lay in some JB Weld or other hard epoxy -- I'd be shocked if LocTite didn't have something formulated specifically for this purpose. Once the filler is cured, use the same file technique. If the surface is severely damaged, there is a product called "Moglice" which can be bonded with epoxy to the machine. The surface has to be milled to account for the thickness of the Moglice, then scraped into flatness using the Connolly techniques. I've never used this product. a ------- Re: Invicta 2M Scoring on Ram slide ways Posted by: "Adrian Nicolson" adrian_nicolsonx~xxyahoo.com Date: Sun Jul 27, 2014 6:17 am ((PDT)) Hi, Scoring (or "pick-up") is usually attributed to the lack of lubrication. In addition, on any Shaper that does not have an integral Oil Pump...you will find that...as far as the machine is concerned...It is, in effect, a Total Loss Oiling System...No Oil Pump is Standard fare on the bulk of Invicta/Elliott machines. Total Loss i.e. What goes in...usually all comes back out again... ultimately down at floor level. A shaper...in general...is an "Oil Junkie"...and as such...is always "hungry" for Oil! ;-))) Now...with regard to the scoring on the Ram Slide etc... You will probably find that...in the main...you can usually address this problem by gently Stoning the "high spots" and any roughness down...with a Carborundum Slip or Shaped Stones. You are "unlikely" to ever be able to remove enough to affect the "accuracy' of the Flat Surfaces...So don't be concerned that you will "damage" the machine! Once you have stoned down the high-spots and wiped or washed the resultant grit away from the slides and then re-assemble the machine with liberal squirts of oil smeared all over the ways, prior to bolting everything back up.....bearing in mind that you need a "running clearance" for the Ram to be able to slide back and forth along the ways. I would then suggest that you initially run the machine on a short stroke ...say two or three inches of Ram travel for a short period of time at a SLOW speed...just to get it to start to Bed back in...Continue to STOP and re-oil every time it looks like the "pots" are becoming "empty"? Check for any heat or binding...when running...and then gradually increase the stroke length an inch or two at a time...until you can operate the machine across the full stroke range (freely). I would then suggest that you check the running clearance of the Ram to the Ways...and adjust (gently) if required. Regards, Adrian PS the "extra" grooves (or scores) in the Ram and ways...will actually end up assisting you......by holding a little bit more Oil! ;-))) ------- Re: Invicta 2M Scoring on Ram slide ways Posted by: "bill baedke" bbaedke2x~xxyahoo.com Date: Sun Jul 27, 2014 6:18 am ((PDT)) I have a Cincinnati 20 inch that has scoring. It was not pumping oil when I got it, now fixed. Seems to work OK with the scoring. It would be nice if the whole machine was like new; feel the same way about my 72 year old body. Bill B ------- Re: Invicta 2M Scoring on Ram slide ways Posted by: "Glen Linscheid" partsproductionx~xxcenturylink.net Date: Sun Jul 27, 2014 12:54 pm ((PDT)) No Alan, if it's not deep just scrape it as I did, it is taken for granted the operator knows how to do it correctly. With a power scraper it gets down pretty fast. ------- Re: Invicta 2M Scoring on Ram slide ways Posted by: sonning4234x~xxatt.net sonning4234x~xxatt.net Date: Mon Jul 28, 2014 2:38 am ((PDT)) I agree with Alan's comments regarding using fillers as a repair. I have used JB Weld to fill-in gouged way surfaces. JB is a very strong Epoxy with metal filler. I have even observed engine blocks and heads that are subjected to heat hold up with a JB Weld repair. The native gray color of JB also blends in pretty well with cast iron color. Gouge preparation with a Dremel Tool is advisable. Use multiple cleaning cycles of solvent soaked towels before application of the JB Weld. Also be aware that cured Epoxy compounds are softened by alcohol. So don't ever use alcohol of any type around Epoxy repairs. ------- Re: Invicta 2M Scoring on Ram slide ways Posted by: wiktoria_jablonskax~xxyahoo.co.uk Date: Mon Jul 28, 2014 2:39 am ((PDT)) Didn't quite have enough time to read all of the posts - but quite frankly, if it is running well, then stoning to get rid of any high spots will be enough - as the shaper is always looking for oil - the extra grooves will hold some oil for you. I have an Elliot that is badly scored on the ram dovetails - and after a good clean & light stoning when I got it - it cuts very accurately and without any shake rattle or roll....of course I keep it well lubed. Kindest Anna ------- Re: Invicta 2M Scoring on Ram slide ways Posted by: locost_neox~xxyahoo.com Date: Mon Jul 28, 2014 2:39 am ((PDT)) Thanks for the responses, guys! It is really appreciated. I'll try the filing, then some epoxy metal filler. I think that will probably work. Then I'll extend the ram a little bit more each time and run it in for a while. Stupid question. Is it safe to jog the shaper with the ram removed? The reason I ask is that the left sideplate of the link block at the top of the rocker arm is actually touching the side of the slot. The ram contains the piece that centers the rocker arm assembly. I want to get a look at the mechanism before deciding if I need to take the guts out of the machine. Thanks again for the help. ------- [Repair cracked metal housing] Re: Atlas 7b [Metal_Shapers] Posted by: "Mike T" mctaglierix~xxgmail.com miket_nyc Date: Thu Aug 21, 2014 5:25 am ((PDT)) By a crack in the gear housing, you mean one that will get worse as the shaper is used, right, rather than a cosmetic one? Zamak is a zinc-based alloy often called pot metal, and it's much harder than aluminum, so it was often used for parts like this (as well as the change gears on Atlas lathes). I've never heard of repairing pot metal with tin/lead solder, but you can repair it with the kind of aluminum solder where you rub the base metal through a pool of liquid solder to remove the base metal's oxide skin ("Lumiweld" is the best known brand of this). I've repaired both aluminum and pot metal with this stuff, but it's VERY tricky on pot metal, because the melting point of the pot metal is about 900 degrees, only slightly higher than the melting point of the solder. Therefore, if you heat the metal even slightly too much, the whole piece will suddenly liquify. For a rare object like this gear housing, I wouldn't risk that. Instead, I would reinforce the crack mechanically with a strip of metal around the outside to keep it from opening further. Here are some photos of an (uncracked) gear housing http://www.lathes.co.uk/atlasshaper/img27.jpg Assuming yours is cracked radially from the center bushing outward, I would file or grind a flat surface on both sides of the crack, then use a strip of steel, fitted with pins in the base metal to hold the crack together. (There's also a trick you can do with this. Make the pins slightly further apart than the holes on the ends of the steel strip, then heat the strip to expand it before popping it on the pins. When it cools, it will pull the crack together). JB Weld is a very hard epoxy that looks similar to metal when cured. I would use that also, both to hold the strip on and to disguise the repair when you're done. The Atlas shaper was a very popular one, and you should find plenty of literature on it. Mike Taglieri ------- Re: Atlas 7b Posted by: sonning4234x~xxatt.net Date: Thu Aug 21, 2014 8:14 pm ((PDT)) I have had good luck with a Muggy Weld special solder/braze product that works on pot metal and Zymak with three machine tool parts. Please look at this link: http://muggyweld.com http://muggyweld.com I agree with you that heating rare zinc based parts is risky. I have a friend who also uses Muggy Weld on pot metal trim parts found on his old classic cars. The two most important issues are 1) practice a LOT on some junk parts to get your skills up on something that doesn't matter 2) clean the metal to be repaired and remove all corrosion. If any oxides, sufites or salts get into the weld it will not bond. Most of these zinc alloys tend to become brittle with age as crystal inclusions form due to poor alloy purity. I have found that manufacturers like Atlas (and the automotive industry) often contracted different die casting companies to make their parts. Some of these contract shops used very good quality alloy that met stringent lab tests. Zymak was supposed to be one of the best. Others used junk pot metal that was probably old car carburetors melted down. It is a draw of the cards regarding what we have in our machines. ------- Re: Atlas 7b, cracked zamak Posted by: "Original Woodchuck" marmotax~xxembarqmail.com marmot2399 Date: Sun Aug 24, 2014 7:58 pm ((PDT)) To Mike's excellent advice, I would add that it might benefit to drill a small through-hole, say 1/8" diameter, at the end of the crack. This can make it more difficult for the crack to spread. This works on the same mechanical principles as filleting or rounding-over to remove "stress risers". Dave ------- Alba 1a shaper problems [Metal_Shapers] Posted by: wmrmeyersx~xxsbcglobal.net oldstudentmsgt Date: Sat Nov 8, 2014 8:58 am ((PST)) Folks, we've got a new member with an Alba 1a shaper having problems. Since I'm a very new shaper user myself, thought I'd start the ball rolling, since I know that Yahoo has gotten harder to search, rather than easier. Anyone out there familiar with the Alba 1a enough to offer some help? Bill in OKC ------- Re: Alba 1a shaper problems Posted by: phil.hermeticx~xxlangtoft.net philwhitley73 Date: Sun Nov 9, 2014 6:23 am ((PST)) I'll help if I can, I have a 1A Alba. Phil East Yorkshire UK ------- Re: Alba 1a shaper problems Posted by: stuartchesherx~xxbtinternet.com fffffreezing Date: Sun Nov 9, 2014 3:42 pm ((PST)) Phil - Thank you for your offer of support but I have been working at it for hours today and I have fixed it. I removed the table first to lighten things up but only after doing some shopping at the car boot sale this morn where I was lucky enough to pick up a long reach socket extension to get at those three bolts that secure the table to the cross slide. Once the table was off, I used a long length of 40x150 timber with the end lodged inside the base casting drip tray, (and making an assumption that the nut had come of the end of the threaded portion of the traverse shaft) I started trying to lever and wind the cross slide back onto the traverse shaft thread. Sounds easy? It took several hours and a lot of sweat before I finally got the thing to bite onto the thread and was able to wind the cross slide to the central position. Now I could see that my assumption had been correct, the cross slide nut HAD dropped off the thread because the shaft had been machined down at the end. When the machine was new this dropping off the end business would not have caused a problem as a good shove would have got the cross slide engaged again. However, this machine's cross slide ways are obviously worn enough in the middle to make the cross slide very tight at the extremities as I found to my cost. It was this extreme tightness that made it so difficult to get the nut re-engaged on the thread. Lesson learnt then - avoid ends! (Sound policy methinks as one approaches three score and ten.) Thanks also to all who have responded. Rik ------- Re: 7" South Bend [Metal_Shapers] Posted by: sparemachineryx~xxaol.com jims1910 Date: Tue Dec 2, 2014 1:07 pm ((PST)) New to the group and this is my first post. Recently bought a 13" South Bend lathe and 7" South Bend shaper from the school I went to. Might even have used the lathe in my training; so I just had to buy it even though I have 3 other lathes. Always wanted a shaper so I got that also. Any way never used the shaper so they are new to me. The model I have is a "newer" one with the oil pump. The school purchased it from AC Colbey; not sure of the year. Can get the serial number if we keep track of them on this forum. My question; the rod from the eccentric mechanism to the ratchet pawl to move the table is curved. Most of the pictures of this model I have seem have a straight rod. However I have seen a few with the curved rod. Is the rod bent or supposed to be curved? If it is supposed to be curved, why only a few came with the curved rods? Thanks for any info. ------- Re: 7" South Bend Posted by: "Glen Linscheid" partsproductionx~xxcenturylink.net Date: Tue Dec 2, 2014 9:03 pm ((PST)) Hi, Mine came the same way, I assume it is caused by people failing to adjust the rod before starting and the rod pays for the neglect. I replaced mine with a new rod I made up from some 3/16" 303 I think. A small job. Glen ------- Re: 7" South Bend Posted by: "Tucker Tomlinson" tuckertomlinsonx~xxgmail.com Date: Tue Dec 2, 2014 9:03 pm ((PST)) I think the rod is supposed to be straight. I haven't seen a curved rod before at any rate. A small curve shouldn't stop it from working so there isn't any big need to replace it past the perfectly normal desire to clean up a new tool. Cheers ------- Re: 7" South Bend Posted by: "Glen Linscheid" partsproductionx~xxcenturylink.net Date: Wed Dec 3, 2014 1:46 pm ((PST)) Yes, when you change the table height if you don't adjust the rod in its adjuster, the rod will have no alternative to the pressure, it will bend. That's why I called it negligence. The eccentric forces it against its travel end and something has to give. Glen ------- Re: 7" South Bend Posted by: sparemachineryx~xxaol.com jims1910 Date: Wed Dec 3, 2014 2:33 pm ((PST)) Glen; Thanks for the advice. And yes, I did notice what you were saying. I haven't used the shaper yet, I'm still cleaning it up. When moving the table up and down to clean the ways; I noticed the rod did seem to bottom out as I moved the ram. Seems like an easy job to straighten it. Denis ------- Re: 7" South Bend Posted by: "Glen Linscheid" partsproductionx~xxcenturylink.net Date: Wed Dec 3, 2014 3:26 pm ((PST)) Denis, I debated with myself about straightening mine, but in the end decided that a bent shaft straightened will always bend easier than a straight shaft that hasn't been bent and straightened. However, since it has way more resistance to bending than it needs under normal use, and since even a straight shaft that's never been bent will bend if the shaper is so abused by not being adjusted, in retrospect straightening is indicated I now think. Glen ------- Re: 7" South Bend Posted by: "Dennis Turk" dennis.turk2x~xxfrontier.com dturkcars Date: Sat Dec 6, 2014 4:45 am ((PST)) Glen make the rod out of 17-4-ph stainless and it will not bend. Maybe brake something else but it will not bend. Favorite material for landing gear bushings and pivot pins on all Boeing aircraft. Most all others also. Good stuff ManardJ ------- Re: 7" South Bend Posted by: wmrmeyersx~xxsbcglobal.net oldstudentmsgt Date: Sat Dec 6, 2014 5:13 am ((PST)) I'm thinking that a bent rod will be much easier to repair/replace than the other stuff that could break. Not by any means an expert, but my little Lewis shaper has enough problems without breaking any more parts because I don't really know how to operate it. ;) Bill in OKC ------- Re: 7" South Bend Posted by: "Glen Linscheid" partsproductionx~xxcenturylink.net Date: Sat Dec 6, 2014 10:27 am ((PST)) Bill. The force that causes it to bend is unlikely to break it, it's compression. The compression is only there when the adjustment has not been made, so that even a previously bent and straightened rod will likely not bend again unless the operator fails to adjust it again. The true answer to the "problem" is to learn proper adjustment and check religiously whether it needs adjustment or not. It is a safety factor to some degree I suppose, a "weak link" purposely placed. Glen ------- Re: 7" South Bend Posted by: "William R Meyers" wmrmeyersx~xxsbcglobal.net oldstudentmsgt Date: Sat Dec 6, 2014 10:45 am ((PST)) Like I said, I'm no expert. ;) I do note that the cast iron fitting, item #640 on the Lewis drawings (Dave Gingery calls it the crank block), that rod goes through on my Lewis shaper has the threads for the setscrew that sets its length boogered up. I guess that would be one way to prevent bending the rod, but mine has a minor curve in it, too. I'd been considering buying 1/4-20 thread inserts to fix it, but have decided to just fill the damaged thread with brass brazing rod, and rethread. It's a tiny boss on the casting, not much to work with there. Bill in OKC William R. Meyers, MSgt, USAF(Ret.) ------- Re: 7" South Bend Posted by: "Glen Linscheid" partsproductionx~xxcenturylink.net Date: Sat Dec 6, 2014 12:57 pm ((PST)) Hi Bill, If it were mine I'd smooth the end of the setscrew so it wouldn't mar the rod when it is forced. If you have a gray wheel, what many people call a scotch brite wheel, just polish the end of the set screw on that, so when the rod gets pushed past it the end will glide past without goobering the rod up as much. But a better solution would be to make a brass or bronze saddle to fit against the contour of the rod, that fits down the set screw hole so the set screw presses against that instead of making actual contact with the rod. Glen ------- Re: 7" South Bend Posted by: "William R Meyers" wmrmeyersx~xxsbcglobal.net oldstudentmsgt Date: Sat Dec 6, 2014 1:03 pm ((PST)) I'd planned on using a lead pellet (literally, one from a .177 cal. pellet gun) in there to cushion the end of the setscrew. The one I have for that has a round divot in the end, and is serrated so it bites in, like they intend that it never come loose. Some places, that would be a good thing, but not here. ;) Bill in OKC ------- Re: 7" South Bend Posted by: "Glen Linscheid" partsproductionx~xxcenturylink.net Date: Sat Dec 6, 2014 2:57 pm ((PST)) Yeah, my RCBS loading dies use a lead pellet under the setting ring setscrew. The pellet can't go anywhere, it will always conform to the surface, so that is one plan. ------- Re: 7" South Bend Posted by: wmrmeyersx~xxsbcglobal.net oldstudentmsgt Date: Sat Dec 6, 2014 3:01 pm ((PST)) Not to mention being cheap, and easily replaceable. If I made one out of brass or bronze, conformal to the shaft, and lost it, it would be seriously irritating, not cheap, and not easy to replace. There are some advantages to being a cheap bastrich. ;) Bill in OKC ------- Re: 7" South Bend Posted by: "Glen Linscheid" partsproductionx~xxcenturylink.net Date: Sat Dec 6, 2014 3:55 pm ((PST)) Cheap? A brass shoe costs a couple of pennies and never deforms much like lead. It can't get lost unless you lose it, and lasts indefinitely. Whenever designers place a set screw placed to lock a ring or nut to a thread my own solution is to make the brass shoe the same way, but maybe a little longer, drop it in the hole with has a spiral flute tap already in the crossing thread the set screw sets against, and begin tightening the set screw over it while turning the tap so it cuts the thread form into the brass shoe. IMO there is no better way to actually use a set screw into a thread, and other than that a jam nut is the next best. Essentially that's what the lead pellet does but it can't take much pressure without sticking, while a brass shoe will not stick. The brass shoe is not my idea, it's normal engineering, I've taken many large office machines apart that had dozens of little copper or brass slugs for the set screw to set against. I think that is how the SB7 is. I looked it up, the South Bend shaper uses a set screw with a brass shoe; http://vintagemachinery.org/pubs/1617/4835.pdf One thing I've never found a good solution for is locking the nut on the clamp below the tailstock of my Nardini lathe. The darned thing just slowly loosens up over time so that eventually when I engage the handle that turns the eccentric that pulls that rod tight against the clamp the eccentric just pulls over center. I tried jam nuts, and even got a longer nut and split it with a screw tightening the split to lock it. Worked for a while but, the repeated tightenings and loosenings always loosen the nut. I could drill a hole through the nut and screw and drive a roll pin in it but that seems extreme. After a few years of trying I finally just reach under and tighten the nut once every few weeks. Now thinking this over I might try the setscrew with a thread form shoe against the threads. Easy to try it out. -------- Re: 7" South Bend Posted by: "William R Meyers" wmrmeyersx~xxsbcglobal.net oldstudentmsgt Date: Sat Dec 6, 2014 4:14 pm ((PST)) If you have the stock, all it takes is time. I'd have to go buy some brass. As for a couple of pennies, a box of pellets is two or three dollars, and they have 500 or so pellets in them. Small enough to fit in a 1/4-20 threaded hole less than half an inch in depth, they ARE going to get lost now and then. Brass or lead. I've got a couple of boxes of pellets. ;) Bill in OKC ------- Re: 7" South Bend Posted by: "Orologe" knibbx~xxastro5.com orologe Date: Sat Dec 6, 2014 3:56 pm ((PST)) Myford uses copper pads under their grub screws..... setscrews to us. Ralph ------- New Shaper [Metal_Shapers] Posted by: Sengine110x~xxmsn.com steam110 Date: Thu May 28, 2015 7:39 am ((PDT)) I received a Atlas 7B, Is there any one who has one? I have a slight knock in the cutting stroke. It the normal? David, Estacada OR ------- Re: New Shaper Posted by: "Dennis Turk" dennis.turk2x~xxfrontier.com dturkcars Date: Thu May 28, 2015 8:08 am ((PDT)) Hi Dave, Dennis Turk in Hillsboro here. Dave, I have two 7A Atlas shapers one on display at my business in Hillsboro and one down at my little hobby shop in Florence. The one in Hillsboro runs very smooth and quiet but the one we have down in Florence also has a knock in it. My buddy Ratshooter also has one down in Springfield Oregon. Both shooter's and mine in Hillsboro run smooth and quiet but the one in Florence seems to have excess clearance in the sliding block on the bull gear. Does not knock on the forward stroke but does when it changes directions on the return stroke. Shooter and I could not find anything else that could cause the knock other than a little extra play in the block were it rides in the bull gear. At slower speeds it’s not bad but set the belt for the next to the highest speed and we get a good thump as it changes directions, so we run it on the second to the slowest and it’s not all that bad. It’s too bad Atlas did not make a sliding block that had some adjustment built into it but then it’s an Atlas and there the shaper is probably the best machine they built out of their full line of power tools. Most of the other tools they built are just junk. One thing to check Dave is if you have any end play in the lead screw in the ram that adjust the ram position. I put a set screw in the nut at the rear of the ram so the nut could not work loose and let the lead screw move back and forth. This can also be a place where noise can come from. Also the nut on this lead screw if badly worn can cause noise also. DT ------- Re: New Shaper Posted by: "Grant Erwin" grantx~xxnwnative.us blue_metal_baby Date: Thu May 28, 2015 7:10 pm ((PDT)) It would be possible to remove the sliding block and fix the hole. This could be done either of two ways. Either bore it and sleeve it or build the ID up with braze and then bore it to size. It would be a big job, though. ------- Re: New Shaper Posted by: "Richard Sutcliffe" ras1x~xxuniserve.com sutcliffe1999 Date: Thu May 28, 2015 7:11 pm ((PDT)) David. Is it a knock, or the impact of the tool entering the cut? Make sure you pull the side cover and lube all points inside before each day's use. A more complete description of the operating conditions would be helpful. ------- Re: New Shaper Posted by: "P.C. Brickell" brickellx~xxeol.ca peter46toronto Date: Fri May 29, 2015 8:47 am ((PDT)) My 7B has a similar knock at about the point whre the ram reverses direction. It is worst with short strokes and heavier cuts. There are two areas on mine that show excessive play -- the sliding block and the "nut" that runs on the leadscrew that adjusts the stroke length (behind the bull gear). I suspect the nut is the culprit. One day I will pull it apart and make a new nut, but it is a large job and I have been able to work around the knock by using longer strokes on small pieces, and keeping the cut depth modest. For now I tell myself that it was made in 1944, so I shouldn't push it too hard! Other than that, the machine has been a dream :-) Peter ------- Re: New Shaper Posted by: "Jordan" jwprincicx~xxbigpond.com jprincic Date: Fri May 29, 2015 7:27 pm ((PDT)) I don't have an Atlas, but my own small shaper (Douglas) also has a slight knock, due to play in the sliding block. Although it would be nice to have it quiet, it has no effect on the function of the shaper. The ram and slides have no excess play -- all that's really important, I think. Jordan ------- Re: New Shaper Posted by: dozierhcx~xxaol.com dozierhc Date: Sat May 30, 2015 3:03 pm ((PDT)) When I recently refurbished the Atlas 7B I acquired (also from around 1944 if you use the Atlas motor build date), I found that the sliding block in the Scotch drive was badly worn on one side (thrust side for forward stroke). Pictures in album "Atlas 7B Shaper SN008685" in the photo section. I can see that this can cause the block to "wobble" as the drive transitions from forward to reverse stroke movement. Atlas supposedly made these blocks as "sacrificial" items to be replaced when they wore excessively. I made a new block (actually a couple) from ground steel bar that I acquired from Production Tool Supply in Michigan. I had to only narrow one side of the block about 0.025" to get a perfect fit with about 0.002- 0.0025" clearance to the stroke arm. That and drilling and reaming the pin hole to 0.750" With this new block there is no "knock" at all in my shaper when it runs. One other issue I had (maybe caused by the extremely worn sliding block?) was the stroke adjustment shaft support collar in the bull gear hub was broken in mine, and I had to braze it back on and then remachine that area slightly. So I also took time to add spacer shim washers to get the slop out of the shaft assembly as well, which may also have helped. I would think that a new sliding block with minimal clearance to the sides of the stroke lever would remove most if not all noise on stroke reversal. Hank Dozier ------- Re: New Shaper Posted by: "P.C. Brickell" brickellx~xxeol.ca peter46toronto Date: Mon Jun 1, 2015 4:16 am ((PDT)) Thanks Hank. It's good to know that a new sliding block may be enough to fix my 7B knock. I will try that first and see how it goes. It might not make a big difference to the life of the machine, but my neighbours in the apartment building here will be glad I did it! Peter ------- Re: Stroke Block Material for Atlas 7B Posted by: gjrepeshx~xxyahoo.com gjrepesh Date: Mon Jun 8, 2015 9:38 am ((PDT)) Let me add my two cents to this discussion. I also requested the M7-19 drawing from Jolene. I asked her if there was any specific information on the kind of oilite they used. Unfortunately, no additional info is available. So I did my own research. My M7-19 is highly magnetic so it is an iron composite oilite. Searching the net I found a material called SAE 863 bronze which is 80% iron - 20% copper. I bought a chunk of this stuff but the downside is I have not been able to finish the block project due to more pressing matters. Thus I cannot say this "is" the material to use. Gary Repesh Royse City, TX ------- Re: Stroke Block Material for Atlas 7B Posted by: "Mark Hofer" markahoferx~xxmac.com mark.hoferx~xxymail.com Date: Mon Jun 8, 2015 11:00 am ((PDT)) My SB7 uses a brass block which slides in the CI yoke and has a steel bushing for the tightening nut; not sure why no one has mentioned this as a potential material. M ------- Re: Stroke Block Material for Atlas 7B Posted by: "Jordan" jwprincicx~xxbigpond.com jprincic Date: Tue Jun 9, 2015 5:33 am ((PDT)) I think the block is more likely to be bronze (mostly copper and tin) rather than brass (mostly copper and zinc). Brass isn't known for being a good bearing material. You're not alone though -- many people use the two terms interchangeably. Gotta be a little pedantic sometimes though, to avoid buying the wrong stuff. Jordan ------- Re: Stroke Block Material for Atlas 7B Posted by: "Mark Hofer" markahoferx~xxmac.com mark.hoferx~xxymail.com Date: Tue Jun 9, 2015 10:10 am ((PDT)) Perhaps you may be right. How can I determine which it is? I've always seen bronze as being darker than brass and based on that alone, my block looks more like brass. Is there another non-destructive way to distinguish? M ------- Re: Stroke Block Material for Atlas 7B Posted by: "Jordan" jwprincicx~xxbigpond.com jprincic Date: Wed Jun 10, 2015 4:35 am ((PDT)) I don't know of a definitive test, but they behave differently when machined. Suggest: Get some known bronze and brass and drill them, seeing how the swarf looks. Then drill your block and compare the swarf. No need to destroy it, just drill where it won't matter. Jordan ------- Re: Stroke Block Material for Atlas 7B Posted by: "eric graham" graham_ex~xxsbcglobal.net erg576 Date: Wed Jun 10, 2015 10:47 am ((PDT)) Just picked up on the thread, maybe this has been said, but have you tried a x-ray florescence analyzer (XRF)? A pricey gadget but try a jewelry store that does buybacks or a junk yard. They sometimes have them. They are neat, to say the least. Next thing you know you are checking every metal you have. ------- Re: Stroke Block Material for Atlas 7B Posted by: jmartin957x~xxaol.com jmartin957 Date: Wed Jun 10, 2015 1:24 pm ((PDT)) Bronze has a redder hue than brass, although there are some brasses that come close to it. You can always put some acid on it -- lemon juice and salt will do. Try it on brass, and you'll see that the acid leaches out the zinc and leaves just the copper -- sort of a pink color. On bronze, it will have little or no effect. That said, who cares? The brass may wear quicker, but it won't wear the crank arm. You can replace the block, but the crank arm would be more difficult. ------- Re: Stroke Block Material for Atlas 7B Posted by: "P.C. Brickell" brickellx~xxeol.ca peter46toronto Date: Thu Jun 11, 2015 7:27 am ((PDT)) Hi Mark, I have no idea if this would work with a sliding block piece, but one of the tests that I have read about is to see if the piece has a ring to it when tapped with a hammer. That tends to identify bronze. One formula of bronze is known as "Bell Metal" for the reason that it was commonly used for that purpose. Chemically bronzes are alloys of copper and tin in various proportions whereas brasses are copper and zinc alloys. I don't know of any non- destructive chemical tests for distinguishing these two, although I am certain there are some to be found if you were to Google it. I too tend to think of colour as an identifying feature, but then I know from antique oil lamp restoration that old brass can become dark, almost a rust brown over time with heavy tarnish, so it may not always be a good indicator. Cheers, Peter ------- Re: Stroke Block Material for Atlas 7B Posted by: "Doc" n8as1x~xxaol.com docn8as Date: Thu Jun 11, 2015 11:06 am ((PDT)) FWIW.....why not square up the original block, section off a piece & bolt back w/shimstock...? OR bolt together w/ interference screws to adjust & lock? be my first thot. best wishes doc ------- Re: Stroke Block Material for Atlas 7B Posted by: winnaarspoortx~xxgmail.com p4ul1234 Date: Wed Jun 17, 2015 5:41 am ((PDT)) Hi. I assume that yor question is resolved by this time but some info. I have a ALBA A1 shaper and it was badly damaged, the stroke block was missing. After chatting to a buddy of mine that has and engineering shop he recommend using a nylon called " Oilon" It worked brilliantly and is self lubricating; I have not seen any wear on it. But I also do not use the Shaper daily ..... Here is the link for the stuff Oilon | Nylacast http://www.nylacast.com/semi-finished-product/nylacast-olion#.VYEFWfmqqko My 2 sents worth Regards Paul ------- 7" AMMCO table not advancing [Metal_Shapers] Posted by: steveblancardx~xxyahoo.com steveblancard Date: Tue Jun 30, 2015 12:28 pm ((PDT)) I'm having a small issue with my AMMCO. The horizontal table feed does not work reliably. I've taken the mechanism apart and everything looks good. I posted close up photos in "Steve B's 7" AMMCO Shaper" album Metal Shapers https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Metal_Shapers/photos/albums/53891636 The problem is that the handle seems to turn too easily when the lever is trying to ratchet back, which causes the handle to just move back and forth but have no progress. It works fine if I put a finger on the handle to add resistance. The ratchet then works and the table advances. The threaded shaft doesn't seem to extend out the left side as far as it should either. I can barely get the 2nd nut on. If you look at the photo of the left side, there is a step on the shaft that makes it look like it should go another 1/2" to the left. I tried tightening the nuts on the end of the threaded shaft to add tension. But then it seems to bind the advance lever. The ratchet gear and pawl look to be in good shape. I've tightened the horizontal gibs to add a little resistance, it helps a little, but it still doesn't work reliably. This problem is kind of hard to explain, but I hope you can follow what I'm trying to say. What do you all think? Maybe I'm missing some simple adjustment? Thanks Steve ------- Re: 7" AMMCO table not advancing Posted by: "Dennis Turk" dennis.turk2x~xxfrontier.com dturkcars Date: Tue Jun 30, 2015 10:46 pm ((PDT)) Maybe insufficient drag or rotational resistance on the cross feed lead screw. This plagues Atlas 7 shapers also. ------- Re: 7" AMMCO table not advancing Posted by: richardpwilson61x~xxyahoo.co.uk richardpwilson61 Date: Tue Jun 30, 2015 10:47 pm ((PDT)) The secret with virtually all these self feed set ups is to get some friction on the feedscrew, stop it moving back. It was normally done by putting a thin fibre washer or a belville washer (anything with a bit of 'give' in it) under the nuts and tightening things up just enough. Richard ------- Re: 7" AMMCO table not advancing Posted by: "Grant Erwin" grantx~xxnwnative.us blue_metal_baby Date: Tue Jun 30, 2015 10:47 pm ((PDT)) How loose is it? It might be as simple as needing a little resistance, like when ratcheting a socket wrench. ------- Re: 7" AMMCO table not advancing Posted by: "Arn Jones" ltousigx~xxgmail.com ltousig Date: Tue Jun 30, 2015 10:47 pm ((PDT)) Add a wave washer or a Belville spring. ------- Re: 7" AMMCO table not advancing Posted by: "Tom Kent" punkforhirex~xxyahoo.com punkforhire Date: Tue Jun 30, 2015 10:49 pm ((PDT)) Hi Steve, a frustrating problem. Have you inspected the horizontal screw's nut? Make sure it is not worn, make sure it is locked tight or bolted tightly to the table? Had this problem on my Alba and it turned out to be the acme nut loosened from the table after several frustrating hours. Tom ------- Re: 7" AMMCO table not advancing Posted by: jmartin957x~xxaol.com jmartin957 Date: Tue Jun 30, 2015 11:16 pm ((PDT)) As others have already said, Tightening the table gibs won't do a thing. It's the reversing of the screw that is causing your failure to feed. Tighten the nuts at the end of the screw -- that's what they're there for. The screw needs to bind just enough to make the pawl skip over the teeth on the ratchet wheel. John ------- Re: 7" AMMCO table not advancing Posted by: stuartchesherx~xxbtinternet.com fffffreezing Date: Wed Jul 1, 2015 5:52 am ((PDT)) When I first acquired my Alba 1a I had this happen to me. I found out that the lead screw is relieved at either end allowing the table drive nut to "drop off" the lead screw thread and knock the feed out to prevent damage to the machine. The normal advice is to push the table while winding the screw to get the nut back in mesh even if it means loosening the gibs to do so. However in my case this did not work (although it will now!) I removed the table, drive nut and screw and found that over the years the start of the thread in the drive nut had become damaged through many "drop of's". The solution? I used the lead screw as a giant tap along with some coarse grinding paste. With very little effort I had the screw running freely through the nut. With the machine reassembled the problem had gone away and I have not been bothered with it since. Stuart ------- Re: 7" AMMCO table not advancing Posted by: steveblancardx~xxyahoo.com steveblancard Date: Wed Jul 1, 2015 10:25 pm ((PDT)) Thanks for all your suggestions guys. I figured out the problem. I just bought this machine and it turns out that the bushings on the end of the threaded crossfeed rod were not assembled properly. I finally found a good diagram that should the proper installation. Two bushings were on the outside of the left side of the crossfeed casting. They needed to be installed one on either side of the casting so as to put resistance to the rotating shaft. It now works beautifully. Thanks for your thoughts. ------- Havir shape rite troubles [Metal_Shapers] Posted by: sctthrtrx~xxatt.net Date: Tue Aug 18, 2015 9:36 pm ((PDT)) Hello, My name is Scott. I've been a member since I bought my shaper about 3 years ago. Due to several life changing events (all good), I haven't had time to use my shaper. Things have finally settled down a bit and I decided I needed a square aluminum block. Using the standard procedure for machining a block, I cut the first three sides. I couldn't wait to see the results, so I took the block over to the surface plate to find that I am cutting slightly acute angles. I recut the sides to check my results. Same thing, so I mounted a tenths gage in the tool holder. As I suspected, my table was slanted. I checked the gibs, and tried changing the shims between the table and the back side of the top box way. This seemed to help a little. I'm hoping someone knows a bit about these machines and can point me in the right direction. I look forward to hearing any suggestions. Thanks, Scott ------- Re: Havir shape rite troubles Posted by: "Richard Wilson" richardpwilson61x~xxyahoo.co.uk Date: Wed Aug 19, 2015 4:55 am ((PDT)) The beauty of shapers and planers is that once you've made sure the problem isn't caused by slack gibs, the machine can be used to resurface the table itself. I understand that this used to be standard practice, once in a while. It's worth checking though that the slope on the table is constant over the full range of height adjustment; if it isn't this points to uneven wear in the slides which support the table. Some larger shapers had a support at the front of the table to eliminate table deflection during cutting. Richard ------- Re: Havir shape rite troubles Posted by: "Grant Erwin" grantx~xxnwnative.us blue_metal_baby Date: Wed Aug 19, 2015 4:55 am ((PDT)) You are using your machine, that's great! Are you holding your part in a vise? If so, check that the vise's fixed jaw is true. Put the short leg of a machinist square in the vise so the short leg is vertical. Put a test indicator in the toolpost so it bears on the long horizontal leg of the square. Indicate along the square. If the DTI shows an error, shim the fixed jaw with cigarette papers until it indicates true. Look around for old machine shop books. Many of those have a chapter or two on shapers and how to set them up. Grant Erwin ------- Re: Havir shape rite troubles Posted by: "JIM LIECHTY" jimliechtyx~xxyahoo.com jimliechty Date: Wed Aug 19, 2015 6:16 pm ((PDT)) Hi Scott...I also have a Havir Shape Rite shaper. Mine is pretty much new old stock, but it is tore down right now to do the cosmetic work that the machine suffered from just sitting around. My machine is the model B that had the swivel table. I imagine your machine does not, or you would have mentioned it. I cannot say that I know much about it, but would expect the heavy duty nature of it being an 8" machine, that it should be rather stout and accurate, compared to the much lighter duty shaper in that class like the South bend. Before re-cutting anything on the machine itself, I would thoroughly check everything. Make sure it is setting level, and maybe bolt down to eliminate any error from twisting. I have a manual that I will attach that gives some setup instructions....keep us posted as to what you find. Thanks, Jim ------- Re: Havir shape rite troubles Posted by: "Grant Erwin" grantx~xxnwnative.us blue_metal_baby Date: Wed Aug 19, 2015 6:16 pm ((PDT)) Scott, I am not familiar with the Havir Shape-Rite. Is there a foot which supports the outboard end of the table? On one picture I saw (doing a quick search this morning) I saw a machined stripe across the base which looks like it would support a footpiece. Anyway, if there is one, is yours adjusted correctly? Or is it missing entirely? Grant Erwin ------- Re: Havir shape rite troubles Posted by: in2steamx~xxwi.rr.com in2steam Date: Wed Aug 19, 2015 6:17 pm ((PDT)) Hi Scott I understand the life changing events things but mine always seem to be bad lately but it great you are making chips. First thing all things are relative, I caught something in your post, you mounted a tenths gauge in your tool holder, how far out over so many inches is this? Shapers in this class are only accurate done about .005 inches on good day, although there are some that can be tightened up closer to .001 inches. I have a newer to me Havir as well, although I am not new to shapers. Biggest difference between this and other small shapers that I am used to is that the table can (as an option tilt). So you have the ability to tilt the table as well more then likely. If you have an angle indicator on the back of the table then it will tilt. There is a large nut inside the table that will have to be loosened and then the table can be adjusted. Best advice here is to treat it like a milling machine head tramming job. I would myself get the longest piece of stock I can find to bolt to the table so you can make very small adjustments easily. From experiences on other machines account for tightening the nut when you are leveling it, this will most likely knock it out some. If you don't have this option and you did take the table off at some point, you will need to take a skimming cut on the table a couple thou at most. This was a common practice and not abuse of the machine. If you don't want to do that then you can make a false top and shape that instead. Before you proceed make sure all your adjustments are where they need to be, not too tight, not too loose. To be honest I have not touched my havir yet and I am not sure if there are gibs in the table or shims, but from the looks of it there are shims since they are boxed like my atlas. Best Regards, Chris ------- Re: Havir shape rite troubles Posted by: anthrhodesx~xxaol.com anthrhodes Date: Thu Aug 20, 2015 8:01 am ((PDT)) Scott, I see you've had a response. Probably knows a great deal more than I do but I thought I'd make a few suggestions anyway. First determine how flat the table is. Not level, just flat, it's difficult to determine the squareness of the axes if you don't know if the surfaces are flat. Each surface which might be used for mounting a work piece should be checked for flatness, and if there are any V-grooves for clamping rods they should be checked for truth also. Second, adjust the ways, table, and ram to the correct clearances. Next, if the table is intended to be adjusted for tilt, and if there is a micrometer dial against which to adjust it, do adjust it to a zero reading. Once the above issues have been brought to the degree of precision which suits you, it's time to check the traverse on all 3 axes. Yes, 3, cross feed on the table, vertical feed on the table, degree of squareness of the stroke of the ram to the other 2 axes. Check the squreness of the V-grooves to the 3 axes while you're at it. Now you should be in a position to determine whether the traverses of the table are parallel and square to the 3 axes. Be interesting to learn your experiences during these processes and what you determine. Anthony Berkeley, Calif. ------- Re: Ruined Shaper Pics [Metal_Shapers] Posted by: gunnerasch4570x~xxyahoo.com gunnerasch4570 Date: Sun Feb 21, 2016 8:53 pm ((PST)) "If it isn't clapped out (from use before being placed outside), it may not be as bad as you think. The mating surfaces were slathered in oil for decades." I agree. I've restored a goodly number of rusty machine tools over the years that were nasty with rust and they all came out pretty well. My Italian Larios 40 taper horizontal mill is a perfect example. https://picasaweb.google.com/104042282269066802602/Larios I'm currently puttering with a 16" Universal G&L that will turn out nicely https://picasaweb.google.com/104042282269066802602/GLShaper ------- Re: Ruined Shaper Pics Posted by: "Tucker Tomlinson" tuckertomlinsonx~xxgmail.com Date: Mon Feb 22, 2016 6:28 am ((PST)) There's a few buildings here in chicago that are clad in corten or something similar. They get a dark red-orange layer, but don't get any of the deep pitting you'd associate with steel that's left out for years. The one exception is down around the base where they salt for snow. The cladding down there defintely shows pitting and serious corrosion. More related to machine tools -- the last few years I've been enjoying watching a youtube series where Kieth Rucker restores an old woodworking planer-matcher that had been left outside for years, and one thing I remember he pointed out was that the steel shafts in the machine had all corroded badly, but the cast iron was almost all surface rust. Apparently the high carbon content in the cast iron prevents the rust from getting as aggressive as it does with steels. Since the shafts are much easier to repair/replace than the castings, that probably explains why so many machines can be brought back from the grave. Cheers ------- ------------------------------------------------------------------ This is just one of some 80 files about machining and metalworking and useful workshop subjects that can be read at: http://www.janellestudio.com/metal/index.html ------------------------------------------------------------------